From peter@vanpeborgh.eu Tue Jul 1 19:36:47 2025 From: peter@vanpeborgh.eu To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC items: update Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2025 20:24:04 +0100 Message-ID: <03f101dbeabd$b579d2a0$206d77e0$@vanpeborgh.eu> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6392044835987892168==" --===============6392044835987892168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Guys, A bit late I fear.=20 I collect computer artefacts from the 50s to the 80s. Are there any DEC PDFP = 11/ front panels (non-functional) available cheap? I might be tempted... Many thanks, peter -----Original Message----- From: Paul Anderson =20 Sent: 30 June 2025 22:53 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC items: update The 11/35s came in a 10 1/2 box, either the BA11-D, or the BA11-K, which most= 11/34s used. On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 4:49=E2=80=AFPM cz via cctalk wrote: > Hm. Today I learned something new. Always thought the 11/40's only=20 > came in the big slide out rack mounts. Although if you're selling an=20 > OEM system a 1.5 inch box is all you need so that's probably why all=20 > the 11/35's I've seen are small. > > C > > On 6/30/2025 4:14 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > 11/35 is the model number for OEM market 11/40 machines. > > > > paul > > > >> On Jun 30, 2025, at 3:03=E2=80=AFPM, cz via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Is that the desktop one? Always wanted one of those, they're cute.=20 > >> But > I thought those were all 11/35's? > >> > >> C > >> > >> On 6/30/2025 1:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > >>> I have an 11/40 in the 10-1/2" chassis, along with some other 11s etc. > >>> --tom > >>> On 6/30/25 12:17, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > >>>> I=E2=80=99ve been wanting an 11/40. What=E2=80=99re you asking for you= rs? Does it=20 > >>>> run > or is it at least =E2=80=9Call there?=E2=80=9D > >>>> > >>>> Thx > >>>> Jake > >>>> > >>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 14:44, Wayne S via cctalk=20 > >>>>> > wrote: > >>>>> > >>>>> =EF=BB=BFPaul, FYI, I don=E2=80=99t know if you monitor all your rmai= l, but i=20 > >>>>> sent > you some invites to some classic computer discords where people will=20 > really want your boards to complete their systems. > >>>>> > >>>>> Wayne > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > >>>>> > >>>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 11:04, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> =EF=BB=BF > >>>>>> > >>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:05=E2=80=AFAM, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>>>>>> Front panels: I have both 8-A, KY11-LA and -LB for 11/04, /34,=20 > >>>>>>> one > each > >>>>>>> 11/70 RDC remote diag con, corporate (blue/blue), and regular.=20 > >>>>>>> I > think > >>>>>>> there is an 11/40 with a 11/35 silkscreen. I have to go=20 > >>>>>>> through > the 8-E, F, > >>>>>>> and Ms. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> The last dual extender is on hold, one quad is left, a few=20 > >>>>>>> hex, a > comet > >>>>>>> (730 or 750 I think), ... > >>>>>> "Comet" was the code name for the 750 (the 780 was "star" which=20 > >>>>>> is > why the VMS system library file name is "starlet"). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> paul > >> > > > > --===============6392044835987892168==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Jul 2 08:48:18 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC items: update Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 03:47:59 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <03f101dbeabd$b579d2a0$206d77e0$@vanpeborgh.eu> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0937232382117282726==" --===============0937232382117282726== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seldom. On Tue, Jul 1, 2025 at 2:44 PM Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Guys, > > A bit late I fear. > > I collect computer artefacts from the 50s to the 80s. Are there any DEC > PDFP 11/ front panels (non-functional) available cheap? I might be > tempted... > > Many thanks, > > peter > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Anderson > Sent: 30 June 2025 22:53 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC items: update > > The 11/35s came in a 10 1/2 box, either the BA11-D, or the BA11-K, which > most 11/34s used. > > On Mon, Jun 30, 2025 at 4:49 PM cz via cctalk > wrote: > > > Hm. Today I learned something new. Always thought the 11/40's only > > came in the big slide out rack mounts. Although if you're selling an > > OEM system a 1.5 inch box is all you need so that's probably why all > > the 11/35's I've seen are small. > > > > C > > > > On 6/30/2025 4:14 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > 11/35 is the model number for OEM market 11/40 machines. > > > > > > paul > > > > > >> On Jun 30, 2025, at 3:03 PM, cz via cctalk > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Is that the desktop one? Always wanted one of those, they're cute. > > >> But > > I thought those were all 11/35's? > > >> > > >> C > > >> > > >> On 6/30/2025 1:47 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: > > >>> I have an 11/40 in the 10-1/2" chassis, along with some other 11s > etc. > > >>> --tom > > >>> On 6/30/25 12:17, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > > >>>> I’ve been wanting an 11/40. What’re you asking for yours? Does it > > >>>> run > > or is it at least “all there?” > > >>>> > > >>>> Thx > > >>>> Jake > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 14:44, Wayne S via cctalk > > >>>>> > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Paul, FYI, I don’t know if you monitor all your rmail, but i > > >>>>> sent > > you some invites to some classic computer discords where people will > > really want your boards to complete their systems. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Wayne > > >>>>> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 11:04, Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>  > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2025, at 5:05 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >>>>>>> Front panels: I have both 8-A, KY11-LA and -LB for 11/04, /34, > > >>>>>>> one > > each > > >>>>>>> 11/70 RDC remote diag con, corporate (blue/blue), and regular. > > >>>>>>> I > > think > > >>>>>>> there is an 11/40 with a 11/35 silkscreen. I have to go > > >>>>>>> through > > the 8-E, F, > > >>>>>>> and Ms. > > >>>>>>> > > >>>>>>> The last dual extender is on hold, one quad is left, a few > > >>>>>>> hex, a > > comet > > >>>>>>> (730 or 750 I think), ... > > >>>>>> "Comet" was the code name for the 750 (the 780 was "star" which > > >>>>>> is > > why the VMS system library file name is "starlet"). > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> paul > > >> > > > > > > > > > --===============0937232382117282726==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Wed Jul 2 11:08:21 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 11:08:12 +0000 Message-ID: <1485859412.3095027.1751454492187@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <1485859412.3095027.1751454492187.ref@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6152537072026888195==" --===============6152537072026888195== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear list members,=C2=A0 I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survived th= e product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could not= find any hints on this.=C2=A0 It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the successo= r of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the macroce= ll array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there were i= llustrated parts list on microfiche.=C2=A0 However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a museum= such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their archive= s? Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! Best regards,=C2=A0 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============6152537072026888195==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Wed Jul 2 11:35:30 2025 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 12:28:50 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1485859412.3095027.1751454492187@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0892185282292101691==" --===============0892185282292101691== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 02/07/2025 12:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Dear list members, > > I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survived = the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could n= ot find any hints on this. > It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succes= sor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the macro= cell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there were= illustrated parts list on microfiche. > However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a muse= um such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their archi= ves? > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! > > Best regards, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry,=20 forgot who) years ago. There's at least one online version here:=20 https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/0/04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and=20 the normal MPxxxx drawings. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============0892185282292101691==-- From vaxorcist@googlemail.com Wed Jul 2 12:34:44 2025 From: Hans-Ulrich =?utf-8?q?H=C3=B6lscher?= To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 14:34:27 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6904472865373422086==" --===============6904472865373422086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There's a VAX8600 for sale here in Germany, not on Ebay or any other platform, but on personal mediation only. I have tried several times to have it sold, but no success yet. I am only the agent and do not receive any commission. I only want to have it salvaged from rotting in the barn where it is stored. Let me know if you're interested. Antonio Carlini via cctalk schrieb am Mi., 2. Juli 2025, 13:44: > On 02/07/2025 12:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > Dear list members, > > > > I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having > survived the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively > but could not find any hints on this. > > It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the > successor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to > the macrocell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that > there were illustrated parts list on microfiche. > > However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a > museum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their > archives? > > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! > > > > Best regards, > > Pierre > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > > http://www.digitalheritage.de > > I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry, > forgot who) years ago. > > > There's at least one online version here: > https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/0/04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf > > > I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and > the normal MPxxxx drawings. > > > Antonio > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio(a)acarlini.com > > --===============6904472865373422086==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jul 2 13:26:44 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 09:26:24 -0400 Message-ID: <27C49D2F-4FA8-45D5-8FFF-3CFE98E34C16@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6389419854820131018==" --===============6389419854820131018== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 2, 2025, at 7:28=E2=80=AFAM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry, for= got who) years ago. >=20 > There's at least one online version here: https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/0= /04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf >=20 > I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and th= e normal MPxxxx drawings. >=20 > Antonio That looks a bit like a block diagram, sort of a conceptual level schematic a= s opposed to a detailed gate by gate schematic. It reminds me a bit of the "block diagram" manuals for the CDC 6600 supercomp= uter, which shows most of the logic modules and the buses interconnecting the= m, along with the relevant clock pulses (more or less accurately). But there= are also the wiring diagrams, which are the actual fully completed schematic= s. If you want to understand the machine, the block diagrams are excellent; = if you want to replicate it, they are not sufficient and the wiring diagrams = are actually what you need. paul --===============6389419854820131018==-- From chrise@pobox.com Wed Jul 2 14:01:16 2025 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] The Big Rewrite (American Pie parody) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 08:51:18 -0500 Message-ID: <20250702135118.GK2280@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7133767334212269600==" --===============7133767334212269600== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Apologies if this is a dupe here but I don't remember seeing it, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCGu5Z_vaps :-) -- Chris Elmquist --===============7133767334212269600==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Wed Jul 2 14:50:23 2025 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 10:49:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <27C49D2F-4FA8-45D5-8FFF-3CFE98E34C16@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0122485132445153860==" --===============0122485132445153860== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We have an 8650 at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. Unfortunately I don't think that there is any home of getting it running again. https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-vax-8650 On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 10:14 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 2, 2025, at 7:28 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry, > forgot who) years ago. > > > > There's at least one online version here: > https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/0/04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf > > > > I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and > the normal MPxxxx drawings. > > > > Antonio > > That looks a bit like a block diagram, sort of a conceptual level > schematic as opposed to a detailed gate by gate schematic. > > It reminds me a bit of the "block diagram" manuals for the CDC 6600 > supercomputer, which shows most of the logic modules and the buses > interconnecting them, along with the relevant clock pulses (more or less > accurately). But there are also the wiring diagrams, which are the actual > fully completed schematics. If you want to understand the machine, the > block diagrams are excellent; if you want to replicate it, they are not > sufficient and the wiring diagrams are actually what you need. > > paul > > -- Michael Thompson --===============0122485132445153860==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 2 15:11:24 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 10:11:12 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4286712783302139792==" --===============4286712783302139792== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 6/29/25 14:22, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jon, > > That's why I want to send them out to be tested. I'm just not how long it > will take. > OK, please keep me posted on this, as I need to figure out whether my plan to get something put together for THIS VCFMW is going to be possible. Thanks, Jon --===============4286712783302139792==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 2 15:13:10 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 10:13:01 -0500 Message-ID: <20575f5c-9681-493f-d5dd-c09dda8f68c3@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <1485859412.3095027.1751454492187@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2807086369777456657==" --===============2807086369777456657== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Dear list members, > > I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survived = the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could n= ot find any hints on this. > It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succes= sor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the macro= cell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there were= illustrated parts list on microfiche. > However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a muse= um such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their archi= ves? > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time.=C2=A0 That was about=20 the latest prints I have seen. Jon --===============2807086369777456657==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 2 15:23:07 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: The Big Rewrite (American Pie parody) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 10:22:56 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250702135118.GK2280@n0jcf.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6141873271159184252==" --===============6141873271159184252== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/2/25 08:51, Chris Elmquist via cctalk wrote: > Apologies if this is a dupe here but I don't remember seeing it, > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCGu5Z_vaps > loved it, been there, done that!  Even mentioned Turbo Pascal! Jon --===============6141873271159184252==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jul 2 16:25:20 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 12:25:02 -0400 Message-ID: <87FF8A16-2E81-4AF5-A6AD-AC891B668721@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <20575f5c-9681-493f-d5dd-c09dda8f68c3@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6367962210262021988==" --===============6367962210262021988== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 2, 2025, at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >> Dear list members, >>=20 >> I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survived= the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could = not find any hints on this. >> It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succe= ssor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the macr= ocell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there wer= e illustrated parts list on microfiche. >> However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a mus= eum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their arch= ives? >> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! >=20 > I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time. That was about the latest pri= nts I have seen. >=20 > Jon That makes some sense. Print sets were needed in older machines because FE w= ould actually replace failed components on a board. With "swap the failed bo= ard" repair procedures, it isn't all that useful for support engineers to kno= w how a board works, much less what the detailed circuitry looks like. paul --===============6367962210262021988==-- From chd@chdickman.com Wed Jul 2 22:17:16 2025 From: Charles Dickman To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 18:16:50 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0313498527683559560==" --===============0313498527683559560== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit A small data book library at my work is going to be cleaned out soon. It is mostly common stuff from 1995 and older. I don't believe there is anything unique. You can see a some pictures of the shelves here: https://photos.app.goo.gl/jdJnUdRPvzvRzeTp6 I can't sell them and I won't ship them. If you see anything that should be saved I will squirrel it away with the intention of scanning and getting it online someday. -chuck --===============0313498527683559560==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 2 23:12:24 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 19:12:04 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6517743396853887669==" --===============6517743396853887669== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Chuck There are a lot of items in those photos older than the 1990's....I have a lot of these myself and I don't need these, but I'd say hold onto the items from the 70's and older. Maybe someone near to you might want them. Bill On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 6:34 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A small data book library at my work is going to be cleaned out soon. It is > mostly common stuff from 1995 and older. I don't believe there is anything > unique. > > You can see a some pictures of the shelves here: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/jdJnUdRPvzvRzeTp6 > > I can't sell them and I won't ship them. > > If you see anything that should be saved I will squirrel it away with the > intention of scanning and getting it online someday. > > -chuck > --===============6517743396853887669==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Wed Jul 2 23:35:29 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 19:35:09 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8045928551575670216==" --===============8045928551575670216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit We cleaned out a similar collection a couple of years ago; we piled them all on a pallet, shrink-wrapped them, and donated them to a local college who were delighted to receive them. On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 6:24 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > A small data book library at my work is going to be cleaned out soon. It is > mostly common stuff from 1995 and older. I don't believe there is anything > unique. > > You can see a some pictures of the shelves here: > https://photos.app.goo.gl/jdJnUdRPvzvRzeTp6 > > I can't sell them and I won't ship them. > > If you see anything that should be saved I will squirrel it away with the > intention of scanning and getting it online someday. > > -chuck > --===============8045928551575670216==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 3 00:48:41 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 19:48:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <87FF8A16-2E81-4AF5-A6AD-AC891B668721@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5075173560166362796==" --===============5075173560166362796== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/2/25 11:25, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 2, 2025, at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >>> Dear list members, >>> >>> I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survive= d the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could= not find any hints on this. >>> It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succ= essor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the mac= rocell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there we= re illustrated parts list on microfiche. >>> However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a mu= seum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their arc= hives? >>> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! >> I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time. That was about the latest pr= ints I have seen. >> >> Jon > That makes some sense. Print sets were needed in older machines because FE= would actually replace failed components on a board. With "swap the failed = board" repair procedures, it isn't all that useful for support engineers to k= now how a board works, much less what the detailed circuitry looks like. Yes, we had an FE replace components on an 11/45.=C2=A0 But, they=20 certainly NEVER did component-level repairs on an 11/780 or=20 uVAX-II. Jon --===============5075173560166362796==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 00:53:57 2025 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 20:53:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1720271003679940139==" --===============1720271003679940139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/2/2025 7:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > We cleaned out a similar collection a couple of years ago; we piled them > all on a pallet, shrink-wrapped them, and donated them to a local college > who were delighted to receive them. > Based on my experience (25 years in the CS Department of a University) they probably all ended up in a dumpster. Sad, but true. bill --===============1720271003679940139==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 01:17:28 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 21:17:07 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB14693953089CC368BE1AA93BED43A=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1000600878830315835==" --===============1000600878830315835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Perhaps, space is expensive after all. But my conscience is clear; like everything else here, it went to someone who wanted it and I don't want to know what happened to it after that. ;-) On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 8:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 7/2/2025 7:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > We cleaned out a similar collection a couple of years ago; we piled them > > all on a pallet, shrink-wrapped them, and donated them to a local college > > who were delighted to receive them. > > > > Based on my experience (25 years in the CS Department of a University) > they probably all ended up in a dumpster. > > Sad, but true. > > bill > > --===============1000600878830315835==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 02:13:26 2025 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Databook Library to be scrapped Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 22:13:15 -0400 Message-ID: <30d3b253-d390-4936-bd46-4ecf9282868d@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3017362266157778983==" --===============3017362266157778983== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 2025-07-02 21:17, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Perhaps, space is expensive after all. But my conscience is clear; like > everything else here, it went to someone who wanted it and I don't want to > know what happened to it after that. ;-) > > > On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 8:59 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> On 7/2/2025 7:35 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >>> We cleaned out a similar collection a couple of years ago; we piled them >>> all on a pallet, shrink-wrapped them, and donated them to a local college >>> who were delighted to receive them. >>> >> Based on my experience (25 years in the CS Department of a University) >> they probably all ended up in a dumpster. >> >> Sad, but true. >> >> bill >> >> My experience too. I once had a DEC Logic Lab that was given to me by a man who held badge #7 at the Mill when DEC was a startup.  Donated it to my college to put in a display case and never saw it again.  Same with a Univac 418 front panel that was from a machine I serviced in my first job! I also had serial number 000001 of a Radio Shack SX190 and emailed them in case they wanted it for a corporate history display or something.  I got a reply saying 'sorry, we no longer support that model!"   A local museum gave me a tax receipt for more than I originally paid for it! I think we live in a world where most people don't care about the past, just next quarter's profits. cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============3017362266157778983==-- From useddec@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 03:47:58 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 22:47:39 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5169694253887870932==" --===============5169694253887870932== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon, I can't find anyone to test the power supplies, but I'll try to pull one and test it for you in the next week or so. Paul On Wed, Jul 2, 2025 at 10:20=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 6/29/25 14:22, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > That's why I want to send them out to be tested. I'm just not how long > it > > will take. > > > OK, please keep me posted on this, as I need to figure out > whether my plan to get something put together for THIS VCFMW > is going to be possible. > > Thanks, > > Jon > > --===============5169694253887870932==-- From useddec@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 04:12:51 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC items: update II Date: Wed, 02 Jul 2025 23:12:33 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8468601599897945090==" --===============8468601599897945090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I was digging through DEC compatible boards for someone and realized I should have posted them. I have over 100 dual, quad, hex and VAX boards from the usual suspects- ABLE, CMD, DIGITAL PATHWAYS, DILOG, EMULEX, MT, PLESSEY, REMEX (paper tape interfaces for 8s and 11s). Included are core memory boards for 8s and 11s. --===============8468601599897945090==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 05:20:31 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 05:20:21 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2188002462691982542==" --===============2188002462691982542== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never repaired the = board.=20 In and out! Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 2, 2025, at 17:55, Jon Elson via cctalk wr= ote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 7/2/25 11:25, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>>> On Jul 2, 2025, at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >>>> Dear list members, >>>>=20 >>>> I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having surviv= ed the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but coul= d not find any hints on this. >>>> It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the suc= cessor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the ma= crocell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there w= ere illustrated parts list on microfiche. >>>> However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a m= useum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their ar= chives? >>>> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! >>> I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time. That was about the latest p= rints I have seen. >>>=20 >>> Jon >> That makes some sense. Print sets were needed in older machines because F= E would actually replace failed components on a board. With "swap the failed= board" repair procedures, it isn't all that useful for support engineers to = know how a board works, much less what the detailed circuitry looks like. >=20 > Yes, we had an FE replace components on an 11/45. But, they certainly NEVE= R did component-level repairs on an 11/780 or uVAX-II. >=20 > Jon >=20 --===============2188002462691982542==-- From pontus@dfupdate.se Thu Jul 3 06:52:21 2025 From: pontus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] DEC music board Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 08:43:33 +0200 Message-ID: <97fd5c24fd361bc2e9d7730e32e2106f@dfupdate.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1074118891032564684==" --===============1074118891032564684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Paul I see that you are clearing out QBUS board. I've been looking for a "DIGITAL Q BUS music board" for a while. It is a board without M-number as it was never sold. It is a simple dual board with two AY-3-8192 chips on. There are pictures available, if you want I can send them to you. I live in Sweden, I hope we can work out shipping if you have the board. Regards, Pontus. --===============1074118891032564684==-- From useddec@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 08:47:42 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC music board Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 03:47:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97fd5c24fd361bc2e9d7730e32e2106f@dfupdate.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3990751138323250059==" --===============3990751138323250059== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Pontus, I'm not familiar with it, but send me a pic if you can and I'll check. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 1:59 AM pontus via cctalk wrote: > Hi Paul > > I see that you are clearing out QBUS board. I've been looking for a > "DIGITAL Q BUS music board" for a while. It is a board without M-number > as it was never sold. It is a simple dual board with two AY-3-8192 chips > on. There are pictures available, if you want I can send them to you. > > I live in Sweden, I hope we can work out shipping if you have the board. > > Regards, > Pontus. > --===============3990751138323250059==-- From pontus@dfupdate.se Thu Jul 3 10:08:10 2025 From: pontus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: DEC music board Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 12:08:00 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <97fd5c24fd361bc2e9d7730e32e2106f@dfupdate.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2049284862567745600==" --===============2049284862567745600== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This was meant to go directly to Paul, but apparently I forgot how email works :D Anyway, anyone who has a Music board and willing to part with it, feel free to contact me. /P On 2025-07-03 08:43, pontus via cctalk wrote: > Hi Paul > > I see that you are clearing out QBUS board. I've been looking for a > "DIGITAL Q BUS music board" for a while. It is a board without M-number > as it was never sold. It is a simple dual board with two AY-3-8192 > chips on. There are pictures available, if you want I can send them to > you. > > I live in Sweden, I hope we can work out shipping if you have the > board. > > Regards, > Pontus. --===============2049284862567745600==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 3 14:22:11 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 10:21:53 -0400 Message-ID: <2F39A7EB-6168-430A-A2AC-0DA062C683AC@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6927029841663949393==" --===============6927029841663949393== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 2, 2025, at 8:48=E2=80=AFPM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/2/25 11:25, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Jul 2, 2025, at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >>>> Dear list members, >>>>=20 >>>> I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having surviv= ed the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but coul= d not find any hints on this. >>>> It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the suc= cessor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the ma= crocell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there w= ere illustrated parts list on microfiche. >>>> However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a m= useum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their ar= chives? >>>> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! >>> I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time. That was about the latest p= rints I have seen. >>>=20 >>> Jon >> That makes some sense. Print sets were needed in older machines because F= E would actually replace failed components on a board. With "swap the failed= board" repair procedures, it isn't all that useful for support engineers to = know how a board works, much less what the detailed circuitry looks like. >=20 > Yes, we had an FE replace components on an 11/45. But, they certainly NEVE= R did component-level repairs on an 11/780 or uVAX-II. >=20 > Jon The last one I remembered was an 11/45 also, an MMU data path failure. We (J= osh Rosen and I) diagnosed it while waiting for the DEC FE to show up. Josh = pointed to a particular chip (we had found a stuck bit somewhere in the MMU) = and Jim asked why that particular chip. The answer "because that's the most = expensive one in the signal path". Jim said "we'll see" but shortly afterwar= ds pulled out his parts box, soldering iron, and solder sucker to remove -- y= es indeed -- that particular chip. :-) Once DIP chips started being replaced by PGA or other hard to replace parts, = replacing them on site became impractical. I suspect someone also did the ec= onomics analysis to show that carrying a set of boards, diagnosing to the fai= led board only, and swapping the board in question was faster and easier. Of course it led to jokes like this one: FE is driving down the highway. Suddenly, the ride gets very rough. He mutt= ers "must be a flat tire", pulls over, puts on the spare. He drives away, ca= r still goes "bump bump bump". He grumbles "I guess it wasn't that tire" and= pulls over again to swap one of the other tires. paul --===============6927029841663949393==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 3 14:44:01 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 09:43:51 -0500 Message-ID: <0a0c976a-8195-6023-7934-50a95849f4a4@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4431105138866967885==" --===============4431105138866967885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/2/25 22:47, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I can't find anyone to test the power supplies, but I'll try to pull one > and test it for you in the next week or so. > OK great, thanks so much!  Really shouldn't be that big a deal, I assume these supplies will run with no load.  I hope they don't have the dreaded Rifa capacitors. Jon --===============4431105138866967885==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 3 18:00:27 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 14:00:11 -0400 Message-ID: <4fb03470-44cc-413d-8fcc-a32890819af3@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB7208ECF5E742594E0C986CDBE443A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1430177734445241106==" --===============1430177734445241106== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never repaired th= e board. > In and out! Which makes sense. My guess is in the 80's 90's they would send the=20 board back to a rework facility and repair it there. BGA/PGA is not too=20 difficult to do if you have a good rework station, and the rest of the=20 chips on the board were probably worth enough to make the rework totally=20 feasable. By the mid 2000's, yeah they probably would just trash the board. C --===============1430177734445241106==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 3 18:15:52 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 14:15:32 -0400 Message-ID: <9DEB0A34-9751-4AE6-9ECE-977CCE8ECC57@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <4fb03470-44cc-413d-8fcc-a32890819af3@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5981657280684836548==" --===============5981657280684836548== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:00=E2=80=AFPM, cz via cctalk = wrote: >=20 >> Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never repaired t= he board. >> In and out! >=20 > Which makes sense. My guess is in the 80's 90's they would send the board b= ack to a rework facility and repair it there. BGA/PGA is not too difficult to= do if you have a good rework station, and the rest of the chips on the board= were probably worth enough to make the rework totally feasable. >=20 > By the mid 2000's, yeah they probably would just trash the board. I remember a rework/repair facility in our company around 2005 or so. I'm no= t sure how long it lasted after that. As for rework stations, I have one, inherited from a disk drive company that = closed in 2001. "BGA 3000". I think all it needs is a camera, which I once = had but I think let someone borrow and it disappeared. That's part of a syst= em to do accurate positioning of surface mount chips onto the board. I wonde= r if a GoPro or the like could be put into service for that task. paul --===============5981657280684836548==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 18:26:56 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 18:26:46 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4fb03470-44cc-413d-8fcc-a32890819af3@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4556915831148497494==" --===============4556915831148497494== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price syst= em up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than cursory = diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and it=E2= =80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM used to= do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board brea= king tool. My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board than it= does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the board= also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side projec= t trying to figure out what went wrong. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 3, 2025, at 11:10, cz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never repaired t= he board. >> In and out! >=20 > Which makes sense. My guess is in the 80's 90's they would send the board b= ack to a rework facility and repair it there. BGA/PGA is not too difficult to= do if you have a good rework station, and the rest of the chips on the board= were probably worth enough to make the rework totally feasable. >=20 > By the mid 2000's, yeah they probably would just trash the board. >=20 > C --===============4556915831148497494==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 3 19:00:04 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 14:59:51 -0400 Message-ID: <5247030d-6b91-4a42-80f6-8793876073bd@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <9DEB0A34-9751-4AE6-9ECE-977CCE8ECC57@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5764403775289542550==" --===============5764403775289542550== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > As for rework stations, I have one, inherited from a disk drive company tha= t closed in 2001. "BGA 3000". I think all it needs is a camera, which I onc= e had but I think let someone borrow and it disappeared. That's part of a sy= stem to do accurate positioning of surface mount chips onto the board. I won= der if a GoPro or the like could be put into service for that task. Probably. One of the secrets to hot air rework is that if you use=20 preheat and a good flux the bga and really small smd components will=20 "auto align" as long as they are close to accurate. When that last bit=20 of soft hot air is added the solder goes liquid and surface tension both=20 pulls the component into line and (in the case of BGA) makes all the=20 little balls round so there are no solder joints between pins. Flux=20 ensures this, then you let it cool and problem is solved. So yes a camera and magnifier is nice for super accuracy, but not really=20 needed. YMMV. C --===============5764403775289542550==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 3 19:52:28 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 15:52:09 -0400 Message-ID: <335CDB53-CCB5-42E3-86B6-D79259028228@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB7208483BBF52F8CA13269D41E443A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4412736595216440415==" --===============4412736595216440415== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >=20 > That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price sy= stem up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than cursor= y diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and it= =E2=80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM used= to do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board b= reaking tool. > My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board than = it does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the boa= rd also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side proj= ect trying to figure out what went wrong. That's true for problems seen occasionally. When people realize a particular= issue appears "too often" it does become an engineering matter, because then= it indicates an issue with design or manufacturing or part selection. For example, I remember a product that had a memory backup battery issue, whi= ch turned out to be a change in plating for the battery holder. For engineer= ing it turned into an exercise in learning what "electrovoltaic series" means= -- not something familiar to most digital logic EEs. paul --===============4412736595216440415==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 20:12:19 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 20:12:10 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <335CDB53-CCB5-42E3-86B6-D79259028228@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8660236600139849703==" --===============8660236600139849703== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes, stats are kept about issues. Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80=99= s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be sent= to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and how i= t was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation leader. That=E2=80=99s how IBM did it. I know DEC kinda did it for software on VMS though their =E2=80=9CSoftware an= d Solutions=E2=80=9D database. I really liked looking at that.=20 Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 3, 2025, at 12:52, Paul Koning wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >=20 >> On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price s= ystem up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than curso= ry diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and it= =E2=80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM used= to do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board b= reaking tool. >> My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board than= it does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the bo= ard also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side pro= ject trying to figure out what went wrong. >=20 > That's true for problems seen occasionally. When people realize a particul= ar issue appears "too often" it does become an engineering matter, because th= en it indicates an issue with design or manufacturing or part selection. >=20 > For example, I remember a product that had a memory backup battery issue, w= hich turned out to be a change in plating for the battery holder. For engine= ering it turned into an exercise in learning what "electrovoltaic series" mea= ns -- not something familiar to most digital logic EEs. >=20 > paul >=20 --===============8660236600139849703==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Thu Jul 3 20:29:35 2025 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 16:29:24 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72083E1DF82B21D883D9AD64E443A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8953841147341003894==" --===============8953841147341003894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025-07-03 16:12, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Yes, stats are kept about issues. > Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80= =99s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be s= ent to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and ho= w it was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation lea= der. > > That=E2=80=99s how IBM did it. > I know DEC kinda did it for software on VMS though their =E2=80=9CSoftware = and Solutions=E2=80=9D database. I really liked looking at that. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 3, 2025, at 12:52, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BF >> >>> On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price = system up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than curs= ory diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and it= =E2=80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM used= to do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board b= reaking tool. >>> My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board tha= n it does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the b= oard also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side pr= oject trying to figure out what went wrong. >> That's true for problems seen occasionally. When people realize a particu= lar issue appears "too often" it does become an engineering matter, because t= hen it indicates an issue with design or manufacturing or part selection. >> >> For example, I remember a product that had a memory backup battery issue, = which turned out to be a change in plating for the battery holder. For engin= eering it turned into an exercise in learning what "electrovoltaic series" me= ans -- not something familiar to most digital logic EEs. >> >> paul >> Stats are very important if the manufacturer has a lot of their own=20 product under comprehensive maintenance agreements, especially fixed=20 disk drives that would require major time to recover from backups when=20 they fail.=C2=A0 Control Data had a problem once, I believe it was with the=20 MMDs, where they noticed premature failures in the field.=C2=A0 Because they = kept accurate records, they were able to trace it back to serials after=20 a particular date when a water filter had been changed at the factory=20 and the new one caused some sort of problem with the epoxy holding the=20 magnetic material to the substrate. cheers Nigel --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 --===============8953841147341003894==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Thu Jul 3 21:54:24 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF West 2025 Hotel Block is available! Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 17:53:58 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1730392434158056839==" --===============1730392434158056839== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit VCF West 2025 Hotel block is available! https://vcfed.org/2025/07/03/vcf-west-2025-official-hotel-available-now/ Take care! Jeff Brace \ --===============1730392434158056839==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Thu Jul 3 23:02:43 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 23:02:31 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0535896037715192014==" --===============0535896037715192014== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We had some Fujitsu Eagles with that exact same problem. Go figure. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 3, 2025, at 13:39, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn 2025-07-03 16:12, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, stats are kept about issues. >> Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80= =99s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be s= ent to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and ho= w it was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation lea= der. >>=20 >> That=E2=80=99s how IBM did it. >> I know DEC kinda did it for software on VMS though their =E2=80=9CSoftware= and Solutions=E2=80=9D database. I really liked looking at that. >>=20 >> Sent from my iPhone >>=20 >>>> On Jul 3, 2025, at 12:52, Paul Koning wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BF >>>=20 >>>> On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price= system up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than cur= sory diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and i= t=E2=80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM use= d to do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board = breaking tool. >>>> My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board th= an it does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the = board also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side p= roject trying to figure out what went wrong. >>> That's true for problems seen occasionally. When people realize a partic= ular issue appears "too often" it does become an engineering matter, because = then it indicates an issue with design or manufacturing or part selection. >>>=20 >>> For example, I remember a product that had a memory backup battery issue,= which turned out to be a change in plating for the battery holder. For engi= neering it turned into an exercise in learning what "electrovoltaic series" m= eans -- not something familiar to most digital logic EEs. >>>=20 >>> paul >>>=20 > Stats are very important if the manufacturer has a lot of their own product= under comprehensive maintenance agreements, especially fixed disk drives tha= t would require major time to recover from backups when they fail. Control D= ata had a problem once, I believe it was with the MMDs, where they noticed pr= emature failures in the field. Because they kept accurate records, they were= able to trace it back to serials after a particular date when a water filter= had been changed at the factory and the new one caused some sort of problem = with the epoxy holding the magnetic material to the substrate. >=20 > cheers >=20 > Nigel >=20 >=20 > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > Skype: TILBURY2591 >=20 --===============0535896037715192014==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 3 23:50:40 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Repair procedures Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 19:50:22 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2803069379726619815==" --===============2803069379726619815== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Side tracking slightly from the "VAX 86x0 schematics" discussion into changin= g field service procedures over the years: I remember some fairly hairy cases= in the 1970, when FS engineers had to be way more capable than board swapper= s. 1. DEC RS64 fixed head disk was behaving badly, making more noise than expect= ed. Machine was not under contract. FS tech took it apart, diagnosed bad be= aring. To save the customer (college physics department) a pile of money, he= took it to Appleton Electric Motor Co., where they found a suitable bearing,= pulled off the bad one, pressed a replacement on. Jim reinstalled the motor= into the drive, worked great. 2. Same college, different machine: RF11 drive was showing "clock track failu= re". Diagnosis: drive is not spinning. Same tech. Jim took the drive apart= on a desk in the computer center, noticed a head had crashed and melted, hot= -glueing itself to the platter so the motor was blocked. This machine was un= der warranty, so he ordered a pile of parts: full set of heads, motor, platte= r, plus tools. Replaced the motor, replaced all the heads and aligned them,= replaced the platter, and formatted the timing track. The manual for that f= ormatter was not exactly intellegible... 3. Different university, CDC 6500 mainframe, occasional data corruption in on= e of the mass memory transfer paths. After lots of test code added to the ap= plication (PLATO system), the tech concluded he knew the answer. Opened up o= ne of the cabinets, lifted up a massive bundle of wire to reach a spot where = one of those wires was "punched in" to a module connector, and re-punched the= pins of that wire. Repeat at the other end of that wire. Run tests, proble= m fixed. In that machine, there were a dozen or so chassis, with up to 750 or so modul= es, each with 28 signal pins, most of them interconnected to elsewhere with t= wisted pair wires terminated in tapered pins that were pressed into place. I= t was a surprisingly reliable system but we learned it wasn't 100%, and it t= ook quite some skill and perseverance to find which of those tens of thousand= s of wire connections was the failed one. paul --===============2803069379726619815==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jul 4 01:26:33 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Repair procedures Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 20:26:25 -0500 Message-ID: <31319e40-4140-af9a-de02-97b428d17a0b@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4190182967754823920==" --===============4190182967754823920== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit OK, here's a VAX 11/780 story.  We had a 780 installed about 1980-81, it ran quite well for some time.  After it was a year or two old, it started crashing.  DEC spent some time going through logs, brought in a special team to do a time domain reflectometry of the SBI, and couldn't find anything.  While DEC was running diags on the machine, they had the back doors open, exposing the backplane.  I started studying the maze of wire wrap wire. Suddenly, I found a wire that was caught on the point of a wire wrap pin.  I called to the FE, "hey, I think I found something." He said, "don't move it" but I had already lifted the wire off the point.  The machine ran perfectly for several more years! Jon --===============4190182967754823920==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Fri Jul 4 02:28:58 2025 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 22:28:38 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72083E1DF82B21D883D9AD64E443A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5698752753425562871==" --===============5698752753425562871== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Yes, stats are kept about issues. > Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80= =99s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be s= ent to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and ho= w it was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation lea= der. I remember the DEC-20 at Ohio State. It had a TU77 tape drive. This was back in the days of paper Operator Logs. One day, it went like this: 09:23 TU77 catches fire 09:24 TU77 puts itself out 09:35 TU77 won't load tapes, Called Field Service. When they called, the convo went something like, "you have a TU77 on fire? We'll be right out." No additional questions. FS Engineer comes out with one satchel, opens the tape drive, pops out one board, pops in a replacement from his satchel, and the drive comes back to life. Clearly not his first barbeque. -ethan --===============5698752753425562871==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jul 4 03:48:52 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Thu, 03 Jul 2025 23:48:41 -0400 Message-ID: <22161881-8bb7-4e9e-9732-7cedfed67f5d@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5348802803978354621==" --===============5348802803978354621== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. Do you remember if the board was in the tape unit itself or the TM03? My guess would be the FETs that control the tape motors shorting and=20 turning into a fireball. Still cool as hell :-) CZ (Had a TU77 at home. Never caught fire) On 7/3/2025 10:28 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, stats are kept about issues. >> Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80= =99s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be s= ent to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and ho= w it was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation lea= der. >=20 > I remember the DEC-20 at Ohio State. It had a TU77 tape drive. This > was back in the days of paper Operator Logs. One day, it went like > this: >=20 > 09:23 TU77 catches fire > 09:24 TU77 puts itself out > 09:35 TU77 won't load tapes, Called Field Service. >=20 > When they called, the convo went something like, "you have a TU77 on > fire? We'll be right out." No additional questions. FS Engineer > comes out with one satchel, opens the tape drive, pops out one board, > pops in a replacement from his satchel, and the drive comes back to > life. >=20 > Clearly not his first barbeque. >=20 > -ethan --===============5348802803978354621==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Jul 4 06:23:00 2025 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 07:22:53 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4fb03470-44cc-413d-8fcc-a32890819af3@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8182200290213995492==" --===============8182200290213995492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 03/07/2025 19:00, cz via cctalk wrote: >> Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never >> repaired the board. >> In and out! > Well the Honeywell 6000 & Level 66 series machines https://gunkies.org/wiki/Honeywell_6000_series came with a board tester which was supposed to identify a faulty IC but I can't remember how successful it was. I seem to remember L66 boards were about 12"/30cms square and mostly TTL or  MOS Memory. the CE dropped the board into the tester which told him which chip to change.. I think the most changed chips were RAM. > Which makes sense. My guess is in the 80's 90's they would send the > board back to a rework facility and repair it there. BGA/PGA is not > too difficult to do if you have a good rework station, and the rest of > the chips on the board were probably worth enough to make the rework > totally feasable. > > By the mid 2000's, yeah they probably would just trash the board. > > C Dave --===============8182200290213995492==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Fri Jul 4 06:36:33 2025 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 02:34:46 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7309888777711089823==" --===============7309888777711089823== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Early Honeywell boards were wire-wrap so they could easily be updated in the field. The board tester we had read test vectors from punched cards and stopped reading cards when it found a fault. The tester had a display for the card number. The FE looked up the test and card number and the chart said which chip had failed. It was not good at finding intermittent faults. On Fri, Jul 4, 2025, 2:29 AM David Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > On 03/07/2025 19:00, cz via cctalk wrote: > >> Same here. The FE came prepared with a replacement board. Never > >> repaired the board. > >> In and out! > > > > Well the Honeywell 6000 & Level 66 series machines > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/Honeywell_6000_series > > came with a board tester which was supposed to identify a faulty IC but > I can't remember how successful it was. I seem to remember L66 boards > were about 12"/30cms square and mostly TTL or MOS Memory. > the CE dropped the board into the tester which told him which chip to > change.. > I think the most changed chips were RAM. > > > Which makes sense. My guess is in the 80's 90's they would send the > > board back to a rework facility and repair it there. BGA/PGA is not > > too difficult to do if you have a good rework station, and the rest of > > the chips on the board were probably worth enough to make the rework > > totally feasable. > > > > By the mid 2000's, yeah they probably would just trash the board. > > > > C > > Dave > --===============7309888777711089823==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Fri Jul 4 08:23:14 2025 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 09:23:06 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <335CDB53-CCB5-42E3-86B6-D79259028228@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4061986896774154552==" --===============4061986896774154552== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/07/2025 20:52, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 3, 2025, at 2:26=E2=80=AFPM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> >> That=E2=80=99s a good business practice anyway. You want your high price s= ystem up and running as fast as possible, so not having to do more than curso= ry diagnostics is a good thing I think deck realize that with the VAX and it= =E2=80=99s remote the diagnostic capability as for the board breaks, IBM used= to do that for all the boards they replaced. They even had a special board b= reaking tool. >> My CE from IBM said that it costs IBM more to diagnose a faulty board than= it does to make a new one so that=E2=80=99s why they do it. Breaking the bo= ard also ensures that the engineers won=E2=80=99t get caught up in a side pro= ject trying to figure out what went wrong. > That's true for problems seen occasionally. When people realize a particul= ar issue appears "too often" it does become an engineering matter, because th= en it indicates an issue with design or manufacturing or part selection. > > For example, I remember a product that had a memory backup battery issue, w= hich turned out to be a change in plating for the battery holder. For engine= ering it turned into an exercise in learning what "electrovoltaic series" mea= ns -- not something familiar to most digital logic EEs. > > paul > Folks, I must say the chaos continues. I recently had the steering wheel=20 changed on my VW Tiguan, apparently a common occurrence. I kept bleeping and telling me that "travel assist" wasn't available and=20 you couldn't disable the very loud beep. There must be some design issue with the capacitive "buttons" or some=20 sort of wiring short.... ... however chatting to the parts guy about some other bits he said it=20 must have cost VW a lot as it took them a while to trace the fault and=20 fix the wheels design. .. in the meantime some cars went through multiple wheels.... Dave G4UGM --===============4061986896774154552==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jul 4 15:07:58 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 10:07:50 -0500 Message-ID: <9aae1d95-a0cf-f46d-487c-1d1fd54c92f9@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8954179359485388771==" --===============8954179359485388771== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/3/25 21:28, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 4:19=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, stats are kept about issues. >> Someone should look at the stats and start to investigate when there=E2=80= =99s a lot of failures with the same issue. Explicit instructions should be s= ent to field engineers to take extra steps to document what they found and ho= w it was resolved, and report their conclusions back to the investigation lea= der. > I remember the DEC-20 at Ohio State. It had a TU77 tape drive. This > was back in the days of paper Operator Logs. One day, it went like > this: > > 09:23 TU77 catches fire > 09:24 TU77 puts itself out > 09:35 TU77 won't load tapes, Called Field Service. > > When they called, the convo went something like, "you have a TU77 on > fire? We'll be right out." No additional questions. FS Engineer > comes out with one satchel, opens the tape drive, pops out one board, > pops in a replacement from his satchel, and the drive comes back to > life. > > Clearly not his first barbeque. We had a TU77 on a VAX 11/780.=C2=A0 (Should have waited for the=20 TU78.)=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 Anyway, the early ones had a bad heat problem.=C2=A0= =20 DEC added a rack of boxer fans to the rear door that=20 exhausted air over a heat exchanger to cool the bearing=20 air.=C2=A0 This greatly helped, but there was still an issue when=20 tape was running fast through the drive, like for backups.=C2=A0=20 The tape head got hot and the tape would start sticking to=20 the scraper blades and head. Otherwise, it was a fine drive.=C2=A0 Made bu Pertec, I think the=20 T1000 model. Jon --===============8954179359485388771==-- From mark.kahrs@gmail.com Fri Jul 4 19:33:03 2025 From: Mark Kahrs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 15:32:41 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1326404051465494020==" --===============1326404051465494020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer flies home. --===============1326404051465494020==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 20:21:24 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 20:21:12 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4576303799635368161==" --===============4576303799635368161== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D=20 I Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, which wa= s a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet.=20 He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire cam = loose. He replaced the wire and all was good again. I never found out what the mallet was used for. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 4, 2025, at 12:40, Mark Kahrs via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > after --===============4576303799635368161==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 4 20:35:13 2025 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 13:35:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72089BDF8E1E4699288C0D8FE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0387015063215663329==" --===============0387015063215663329== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. > IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. > CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. > They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D > I > Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, which = was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. > He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire ca= m loose. > He replaced the wire and all was good again. > I never found out what the mallet was used for. . . . and a piece of chalk? measure from top edge, measure from side edge. Make a chalk mark. Hit with mallet. "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" --===============0387015063215663329==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 21:21:25 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 21:21:15 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4471553698401191462==" --===============4471553698401191462== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses to know where t= o sweep. IBM was paying it! Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 4, 2025, at 13:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. >> IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. >> CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. >> They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D >> I >> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, which= was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. >> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire c= am loose. >> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >=20 > . . . and a piece of chalk? > measure from top edge, measure from side edge. > Make a chalk mark. > Hit with mallet. > "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" --===============4471553698401191462==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 21:30:00 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 21:29:42 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB7208C2E79FD53EBF966FD44EE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6697372539128110527==" --===============6697372539128110527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Had another odd one with our 780. FE came in replaced board tge remote diagno= stics called out and everything was good again. When he looked at the bad boa= rd he started laughing. One of the IC=E2=80=99s had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. He said it was the first time he=E2=80=99s ever seen that! Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 4, 2025, at 14:21, Wayne S wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses to k= now where to sweep. > IBM was paying it! >=20 > Sent from my iPhone >=20 >>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 13:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk = wrote: >>>=20 >>> =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. >>> IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. >>> CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. >>> They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D >>> I >>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, whic= h was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. >>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire = cam loose. >>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >>=20 >> . . . and a piece of chalk? >> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. >> Make a chalk mark. >> Hit with mallet. >> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" --===============6697372539128110527==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 4 21:56:34 2025 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 14:56:27 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB7208C2E79FD53EBF966FD44EE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1318038002328455236==" --===============1318038002328455236== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, whic= h was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. >>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire = cam loose. >>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >> . . . and a piece of chalk? >> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. >> Make a chalk mark. >> Hit with mallet. >> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" On Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S wrote: > I didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses to know where= to sweep. > IBM was paying it! True, there has been some inflation in the half century since I was around 36= 0/370 --===============1318038002328455236==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Fri Jul 4 22:15:35 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 22:15:28 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5011571267219757139==" --===============5011571267219757139== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, this was 1978. What we used to spend on IT stuff back then is really amazing. So much! Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 4, 2025, at 15:04, Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >>>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, whi= ch was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood malle= t. >>>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire= cam loose. >>>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >>>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >=20 >>> . . . and a piece of chalk? >>> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. >>> Make a chalk mark. >>> Hit with mallet. >>> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" >=20 >> On Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S wrote: >> I didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses to know wher= e to sweep. >> IBM was paying it! >=20 > True, there has been some inflation in the half century since I was around = 360/370 >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============5011571267219757139==-- From imp@bsdimp.com Fri Jul 4 22:36:10 2025 From: Warner Losh To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 16:35:26 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2551297252709842827==" --===============2551297252709842827== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My backplane horror story isn't so fun. The old TOPS-20 had an 'emergency power off' button. I'm told that it would connect 5V to ground through the backplane for when you really, really didn't want someone to bring it back up easily. Seems like a really stupid feature, but the university I went to had a bunch of military connections, and it may have been for a contract with them (or maybe we got the machine surplus from them, I never could figure out the details). Anyway, in March we announced that we'd be switching the TOPS-20 machine off just before school started again in August. One of the tops-20 operators "accidentally" hit this switch just before finals week because they needed more time to finish their final... That didn't end well for them= ... We had a field service person rebuild the backplane, replacing the charred wires with fresh, and finding all the ones that had been too stressed out by the surge. They started in May and were done the last week of July. So we were able to runt the TOPS-20 machine again for 3 weeks before we shut it off (well, due to the failures, that extended to 5 weeks). So 10 weeks of field service time to get 5 more weeks of life from the machine... And even then, it was "brittle" and useful only for data extraction and transfer to the new Sun workstations... The power of stupidity... None of this billed out at $1600/hr, though it was the mid 80s. Warner On Fri, Jul 4, 2025 at 1:39=E2=80=AFPM Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > > Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We > installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted > we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed > (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field > service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: > Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a > wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer > flies home. --===============2551297252709842827==-- From lyndon@orthanc.ca Fri Jul 4 23:54:40 2025 From: "Lyndon Nerenberg (VE7TFX/VE6BBM)" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 16:54:33 -0700 Message-ID: <676a5aa0f30178a5@orthanc.ca> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72086FEAADFEE226521B9898E442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3907699593166689672==" --===============3907699593166689672== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > One of the IC's had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. > He said it was the first time he's ever seen that! The Apple II floppy drives were notorious for this. The chip that drove the stepper motor (I forget the part number) would literally explode, leaving a quite visible crater in the top of the IC. It got to the point where, as a customer walked into the shop with a broken drive, I could diagnose the problem from across the room because those exploded chips emitted a unique odor. We made a fair bit of cash swapping those ICs :-) --lyndon --===============3907699593166689672==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sat Jul 5 00:08:17 2025 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 18:08:09 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72082A91A8692953CB7C624CE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5882882220306967275==" --===============5882882220306967275== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2025-07-04 4:15 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, this was 1978. > What we used to spend on IT stuff back then is really amazing. > So much! True, but you got field service, not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. Ben. PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that was a mouse not the usb port. --===============5882882220306967275==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sat Jul 5 00:19:24 2025 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 19:19:08 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72089BDF8E1E4699288C0D8FE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6221840231983674557==" --===============6221840231983674557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 4, 2025 at 3:29=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > I never found out what the mallet was used for. I heard people joke back in the day that CEs carried a rubber mallet for remediating core memory problems. No idea whether percussive maintenance to jostle the cores was actually a thing or not. --===============6221840231983674557==-- From g4ajq1@gmail.com Sat Jul 5 00:39:28 2025 From: Nigel Johnson Ham To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 20:39:12 -0400 Message-ID: <22eeeb0d-df61-4fd7-bc17-39d212b72411@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72086FEAADFEE226521B9898E442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0689397054662035917==" --===============0689397054662035917== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025-07-04 17:29, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Had another odd one with our 780. FE came in replaced board tge remote diag= nostics called out and everything was good again. When he looked at the bad b= oard he started laughing. > One of the IC=E2=80=99s had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. > He said it was the first time he=E2=80=99s ever seen that! > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 4, 2025, at 14:21, Wayne S wrote: >> >> =EF=BB=BFI didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses to = know where to sweep. >> IBM was paying it! >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >>>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 13:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk= wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>> This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. >>>> IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. >>>> CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. >>>> They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D >>>> I >>>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, whi= ch was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood malle= t. >>>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire= cam loose. >>>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >>>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >>> . . . and a piece of chalk? >>> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. >>> Make a chalk mark. >>> Hit with mallet. >>> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" I had a bit of luck once with a burned out chip.=C2=A0 Back in the day we=20 would change boards in the field and then fix them back at our office=20 with live equipment that was also being used for engineers to write=20 software for the Canadian Post Office. So service on live equipment was=20 rushed while they had lunch. One day, i used am extender card that had=20 the index plastic broken off, and, you guessed it, plugged it the wrong=20 way hanging down from a DEC RK05 drive. Chip smoked on power-up, hastily cut power and removed smoking card.=C2=A0=20 Replaced chip to go back and further troubleshoot and the card worked=20 perfectly. Only time I ever solved a problem by plugging a card in backwards! cheers Nigel --=20 Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! --===============0689397054662035917==-- From useddec@gmail.com Sat Jul 5 06:11:50 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 01:11:31 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22eeeb0d-df61-4fd7-bc17-39d212b72411@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1429001868879310341==" --===============1429001868879310341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable When I worked for DEC in field service, we had a customer almost next door to us. We gathered outside to watch their new (maybe used) VAX 11/780 get delivered. For whatever reason they used a ramp instead of the lift. The 780 got away from them, and when the wheels hit the pavement we watched as it flipped over and landed on its side. One of the techs calmly said "Someone should go order a new backplane". On Fri, Jul 4, 2025 at 7:49=E2=80=AFPM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2025-07-04 17:29, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > > Had another odd one with our 780. FE came in replaced board tge remote > diagnostics called out and everything was good again. When he looked at the > bad board he started laughing. > > One of the IC=E2=80=99s had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. > > He said it was the first time he=E2=80=99s ever seen that! > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > >> On Jul 4, 2025, at 14:21, Wayne S wrote: > >> > >> =EF=BB=BFI didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses t= o know where to > sweep. > >> IBM was paying it! > >> > >> Sent from my iPhone > >> > >>>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 13:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > >>>> This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. > >>>> IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. > >>>> CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. > >>>> They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D > >>>> I > >>>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, w= hich was a big > brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. > >>>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a > wire cam loose. > >>>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. > >>>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. > >>> . . . and a piece of chalk? > >>> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. > >>> Make a chalk mark. > >>> Hit with mallet. > >>> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" > > I had a bit of luck once with a burned out chip. Back in the day we > would change boards in the field and then fix them back at our office > with live equipment that was also being used for engineers to write > software for the Canadian Post Office. So service on live equipment was > rushed while they had lunch. One day, i used am extender card that had > the index plastic broken off, and, you guessed it, plugged it the wrong > way hanging down from a DEC RK05 drive. > > Chip smoked on power-up, hastily cut power and removed smoking card. > Replaced chip to go back and further troubleshoot and the card worked > perfectly. > > Only time I ever solved a problem by plugging a card in backwards! > > cheers > > Nigel > > > -- > Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU > Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! > > > --===============1429001868879310341==-- From dave.g4ugm@gmail.com Sat Jul 5 06:14:09 2025 From: David Wade To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 07:13:59 +0100 Message-ID: <3ab2c124-963d-4fc4-b063-b49b4218f4b5@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5219814140757019836==" --===============5219814140757019836== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 05/07/2025 01:08, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2025-07-04 4:15 p.m., Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >> Yeah, this was 1978. >> What we used to spend on IT stuff back then is really amazing. >> So much! > True, but you got field service, > not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. But IBM field service had to follow the diagnostic MAPs which listed the steps to debug a problem, sometimes in order of cost rather that probability of failure. Our CE once remarked they were written by accountants not engineers. The result was that when a 3380 disk drive (DASD in IBM terms) failed the Customer Engineer (CE) had to follow a tortuous set of tests... .. the 3380 had two sets of heads, so every was duplicated and the diagnostics swapped every component in turn between the data paths to make sure nothing else was faulty... .. invariably it was the "head and drive" assembly which on a 3380 was a sealed unit and very expensive to make. The CE usually brought one with him which was good, as it had to acclimatise for a couple of hours before fitting, so running the other tests didn't cost much time... > Ben. > PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought > that was a mouse not the usb port. > Dave --===============5219814140757019836==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Sat Jul 5 12:04:46 2025 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 07:48:30 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5541688427920894822==" --===============5541688427920894822== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 4, 2025, at 8:08=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > True, but you got field service, > not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. > Ben. > PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that was= a mouse not the usb port. The Windows problem with misidentifying a serial port as a mouse still exists= in Windows 10. I discovered that connecting our small ARM based embedded de= vice to a Windows machine via its USB serial port sometimes causes the Window= s mouse cursor to go crazy. It took a while to find the registry setting to = disable serial mouse detection. - Rod --===============5541688427920894822==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 5 15:05:33 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:05:21 -0500 Message-ID: <60baaebf-ae25-d7e8-06c5-791e5f1d4c70@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3232706786820015319==" --===============3232706786820015319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/4/25 14:32, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We > installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted > we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed > (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field > service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: > Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a > wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer > flies home. Holy cow, HOW did he find it!!??  The KA780 backplane was a HUGE mass of wires! Jon --===============3232706786820015319==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 5 15:13:09 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:12:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72089BDF8E1E4699288C0D8FE442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4192108916691253776==" --===============4192108916691253776== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/4/25 15:21, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. > IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. > CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. > They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D > I > Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, which = was a big brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. > He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a wire ca= m loose. > He replaced the wire and all was good again. > I never found out what the mallet was used for. > We had a long-in-the-tooth 360/65 that was starting to get=20 flaky.=C2=A0 IBM asked if they could be given the time for a=20 "field overhaul".=C2=A0 They explained they would have the=20 machine down for about a week.=C2=A0 They were given the=20 go-ahead.=C2=A0 The brought in a 55 gallon barrel of some kind of=20 cleaning solvent, took all the circuit cards out of the=20 machine, and dunked them in the barrel. After cleaning, they=20 plugged EVERY board into some tester box and checked for=20 weak signal levels.=C2=A0 They cleaned the "boards" which were=20 the wire-wrapped panels that took the SLT cards on the other=20 side.=C2=A0 Finally, they put all the cards back in (after=20 replacing a few that failed on the tester box) and the=20 machine came up and ran until IBM sent the dreaded letter=20 that said you were welcome to keep running the machine, but=20 they wouldn't service it beyond a certain date. Jon --===============4192108916691253776==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 5 15:16:08 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:15:58 -0500 Message-ID: <15a74814-8803-a97a-026e-c321ab699bbf@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB72086FEAADFEE226521B9898E442A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3276272497131715574==" --===============3276272497131715574== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/4/25 16:29, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > Had another odd one with our 780. FE came in replaced board tge remote diag= nostics called out and everything was good again. When he looked at the bad b= oard he started laughing. > One of the IC=E2=80=99s had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. > He said it was the first time he=E2=80=99s ever seen that! We had a group at the university that had a PDP-11 with a=20 fancy graphics frame buffer, they were doing planetary=20 imaging for NASA.=C2=A0 One day the frame buffer went down, and=20 one of the boards had a big HOLE in it.=C2=A0 I gather that a=20 Tantalum capacitor had shorted across the main 5 V power rails. Jon --===============3276272497131715574==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 5 15:24:52 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 10:24:42 -0500 Message-ID: <7d8bb236-cb12-a108-0dcd-e45975b18959@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3284037489113271685==" --===============3284037489113271685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/5/25 01:11, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > When I worked for DEC in field service, we had a customer almost next door > to us. We gathered outside to watch their new (maybe used) VAX 11/780 get > delivered. For whatever reason they used a ramp instead of the lift. The > 780 got away from them, and when the wheels hit the pavement we watched as > it flipped over and landed on its side. One of the techs calmly said > "Someone should go order a new backplane". > This ALMOST happened to our first 780!  The truck driver was getting it off the truck with a pallet jack (I think) and there was a slight misalignment between the truck bed and the loading dock.  The 780 started to tip, but he got his shoulder against it and kept it from going over. Another one I saw was our computer center was raising their raised floor a foot, as it was getting TOO filled with cables for airflow.  They had the 360/65 disassembled (processor and memory/power cabinet) and a SINGLE guy was moving the CPU up a ramp to the higher portion of the floor.  He started to lose control of it, and it started tipping.  My first thought was that I was going to see a guy get crushed to death right there! Incredibly, he get the thing righted and pushed back up the ramp! Jon --===============3284037489113271685==-- From david@kdbarto.org Sat Jul 5 16:40:33 2025 From: "David [TUHS] Barto" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 09:33:04 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <60baaebf-ae25-d7e8-06c5-791e5f1d4c70@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5447504445336994326==" --===============5447504445336994326== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 5, 2025, at 8:05=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/4/25 14:32, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >> Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We >> installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted >> we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed >> (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field >> service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: >> Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a >> wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer >> flies home. >=20 > Holy cow, HOW did he find it!!?? The KA780 backplane was a HUGE mass of wi= res! >=20 > Jon My story is about a 750. Under maintenance it ran for some time until the tape drive failed. Tech installs new controller board, fixed. Then the CPU fails. New CPU, fixed. Then the tape drive failed again. New board, fixed. And so on through various peripherals, disks, tty=E2=80=99s, etc. Eventually they send out a guy who sits with it for a day, poking and proddin= g just about everywhere for a while. At the end of the day says that he=E2=80=99ll b= e back tomorrow=20 with the correct part. The correct part: A new backplane. Took the entire day to remove/replace the hardware, and lo - the machine neve= r failed after that. David "Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Fe= ynman David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============5447504445336994326==-- From barto@kdbarto.org Sat Jul 5 17:00:48 2025 From: David Barto To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Fri, 04 Jul 2025 19:55:44 +0000 Message-ID: <72124843-CBD8-41A9-A416-AD57C3B4DBD1@kdbarto.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0134776859685750685==" --===============0134776859685750685== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 4, 2025, at 12:32=E2=80=AFPM, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We > installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted > we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed > (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field > service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: > Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a > wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer > flies home. My story is about a 750. Under maintenance it ran for some time until the tape drive failed. Tech installs new controller board, fixed. Then the CPU fails. New CPU, fixed. Then the tape drive failed again. New board, fixed. And so on through various peripherals, disks, tty=E2=80=99s, etc. Eventually they send out a guy who sits with it for a day, poking and proddin= g just about everywhere for a while. At the end of the day says that he=E2=80=99ll b= e back tomorrow=20 with the correct part. The correct part: A new backplane. Took the entire day to remove/replace the hardware, and lo - the machine neve= r failed after that. David You can know the name of a bird in all the languages of the world, but when y= ou're finished, you'll know absolutely nothing whatever about the bird... So let's look at th= e bird and see what it's doing -- that's what counts. I learned very early the differenc= e between knowing the name of something and knowing something. --Richard Feynman David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============0134776859685750685==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sat Jul 5 19:34:27 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 15:34:03 -0400 Message-ID: <8247D03A-61DB-463F-96D2-5BD2C445E82E@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <60baaebf-ae25-d7e8-06c5-791e5f1d4c70@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2750321943779846501==" --===============2750321943779846501== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 5, 2025, at 11:05=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/4/25 14:32, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >> Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We >> installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted >> we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed >> (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field >> service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: >> Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a >> wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer >> flies home. >=20 > Holy cow, HOW did he find it!!?? The KA780 backplane was a HUGE mass of wi= res! >=20 > Jon If you understand the machine well enough and trace the broken data path arou= nd the machine, you can get there without too much trouble. That assumes the= issue is reasonably repeatable. If it only messes up once a day or so, it's= harder, or at least more time consuming. Compared to CDC 6000 mainframes, the 780 (and other DEC computers) are marvel= s of simplicity. Consider the 6600: 15 chassis each with 750-ish module slot= s, each with 28 signal pins. A bunch of slots were filled instead by memory = modules (5 slots wide), but still you're looking at maybe 5000 wires (or rath= er, twisted pairs) per chassis, plus 30 or so cable assemblies each with 19 c= oax inside, to run signals from one chassis to another (or to I/O devices). = I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could do t= hat in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. paul --===============2750321943779846501==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Sat Jul 5 23:17:22 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 19:17:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6953116572455952608==" --===============6953116572455952608== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I will never forget moving an RM03 down stairs into a friend's basement. CZ on top, RM03 in the middle, RS on bottom. Halfway down the flight of=20 steps. CZ: If we lose control of this it's going to crush you like a grape. RS: Trust me CZ, there will be nothing grape like about it.... I don't miss high-mass hobbies as much as one might think.... CZ On 7/5/2025 2:11 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > When I worked for DEC in field service, we had a customer almost next door > to us. We gathered outside to watch their new (maybe used) VAX 11/780 get > delivered. For whatever reason they used a ramp instead of the lift. The > 780 got away from them, and when the wheels hit the pavement we watched as > it flipped over and landed on its side. One of the techs calmly said > "Someone should go order a new backplane". >=20 > On Fri, Jul 4, 2025 at 7:49=E2=80=AFPM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >> On 2025-07-04 17:29, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>> Had another odd one with our 780. FE came in replaced board tge remote >> diagnostics called out and everything was good again. When he looked at the >> bad board he started laughing. >>> One of the IC=E2=80=99s had a hole in it. Looked like it burned out. >>> He said it was the first time he=E2=80=99s ever seen that! >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 14:21, Wayne S wrote: >>>> >>>> =EF=BB=BFI didn=E2=80=99t see chalk, but it was $1600/hr plus expenses t= o know where to >> sweep. >>>> IBM was paying it! >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>>>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 13:44, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> =EF=BB=BFOn Fri, 4 Jul 2025, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> This is similar to an IBM mainframe story i have. >>>>>> IBM 370 wouldn=E2=80=99t IMPL. >>>>>> CE and FE couldn=E2=80=99t figure it out. >>>>>> They called in a =E2=80=9CSpecial Consultant.=E2=80=9D >>>>>> I >>>>>> Came in with a briefcase that contained his =E2=80=9Ctools=E2=80=9D, w= hich was a big >> brush that you would use for light plaster work and a wood mallet. >>>>>> He proceeded to sweep the brush across the wirewrap backplane and a >> wire cam loose. >>>>>> He replaced the wire and all was good again. >>>>>> I never found out what the mallet was used for. >>>>> . . . and a piece of chalk? >>>>> measure from top edge, measure from side edge. >>>>> Make a chalk mark. >>>>> Hit with mallet. >>>>> "$1 for hitting with mallet; $499 for knowing where to hit" >> >> I had a bit of luck once with a burned out chip. Back in the day we >> would change boards in the field and then fix them back at our office >> with live equipment that was also being used for engineers to write >> software for the Canadian Post Office. So service on live equipment was >> rushed while they had lunch. One day, i used am extender card that had >> the index plastic broken off, and, you guessed it, plugged it the wrong >> way hanging down from a DEC RK05 drive. >> >> Chip smoked on power-up, hastily cut power and removed smoking card. >> Replaced chip to go back and further troubleshoot and the card worked >> perfectly. >> >> Only time I ever solved a problem by plugging a card in backwards! >> >> cheers >> >> Nigel >> >> >> -- >> Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU >> Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! >> >> >> --===============6953116572455952608==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 6 00:55:28 2025 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 18:55:19 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8247D03A-61DB-463F-96D2-5BD2C445E82E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1495914177044312209==" --===============1495914177044312209== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025-07-05 1:34 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 5, 2025, at 11:05=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/4/25 14:32, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >>> Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We >>> installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insisted >>> we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed >>> (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field >>> service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: >>> Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have a >>> wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer >>> flies home. >> >> Holy cow, HOW did he find it!!?? The KA780 backplane was a HUGE mass of w= ires! >> >> Jon >=20 > If you understand the machine well enough and trace the broken data path ar= ound the machine, you can get there without too much trouble. That assumes t= he issue is reasonably repeatable. If it only messes up once a day or so, it= 's harder, or at least more time consuming. >=20 > Compared to CDC 6000 mainframes, the 780 (and other DEC computers) are marv= els of simplicity. Consider the 6600: 15 chassis each with 750-ish module sl= ots, each with 28 signal pins. A bunch of slots were filled instead by memor= y modules (5 slots wide), but still you're looking at maybe 5000 wires (or ra= ther, twisted pairs) per chassis, plus 30 or so cable assemblies each with 19= coax inside, to run signals from one chassis to another (or to I/O devices).= I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could do= that in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. >=20 And all the wires tuned to have the same delay I bet. > paul Ben. --===============1495914177044312209==-- From gavin@learn.bio Sun Jul 6 02:14:49 2025 From: Gavin Scott To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sat, 05 Jul 2025 21:14:34 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8247D03A-61DB-463F-96D2-5BD2C445E82E@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2777760755261149345==" --===============2777760755261149345== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 2:40=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could do= that in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. Nice page on the hand-assembly of early Cray systems with cool pictures: https://cray-history.net/2022/08/28/sonjas-story-about-cray-1-fabrication-and= -assembly/ --===============2777760755261149345==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jul 6 12:47:10 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 12:46:52 +0000 Message-ID: <960716085.1092155.1751806012514@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2223170732143163757==" --===============2223170732143163757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Dear Antonio,=20 thank you very much for your link!=20 I kindly appreciate it. With best regards,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Mittwoch, 2. Juli 2025 um 11:44:53 GMT hat Antonio Carlini via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben:=20 On 02/07/2025 12:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > Dear list members, > > I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survived = the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could n= ot find any hints on this. > It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succes= sor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the macro= cell array implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there were= illustrated parts list on microfiche. > However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a muse= um such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their archi= ves? > Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! > > Best regards, > Pierre > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry,=20 forgot who) years ago. There's at least one online version here:=20 https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/0/04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and=20 the normal MPxxxx drawings. Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============2223170732143163757==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jul 6 12:55:50 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 12:55:38 +0000 Message-ID: <889424084.1090063.1751806538983@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1809015185999318422==" --===============1809015185999318422== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >There's a VAX8600 for sale here in Germany, not on Ebay or any other >platform, but on personal mediation only. I have tried several times to >have it sold, but no success yet. I am only the agent and do not receive >any commission. I only want to have it salvaged from rotting in the barn >where it is stored. >Let me know if you're interested. Dear Ullrich, the VAX that you are talking about is exactly the VAX that I would like to gi= ve a=20 new permanent and good home, with the intention to bring it back to life.=20 It will join VAX 11/750, VAX 6000 and VAX 7000 systems plus cluster interconnect technology.=20 I have been in contact with the people around this system for the last weeks and we are in the process of organizing everything required to make things=C2= =A0 happen. This system is only 3 hours away from where I live.=20 I am seeking the documentation "situation" and thus asked the list if there are any more technical documentation such as schematics in existence in addition to what is on bitsavers.=20 With best regards,=20 Pierre www.digitalheritage.de --===============1809015185999318422==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jul 6 12:57:17 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 12:57:06 +0000 Message-ID: <69099876.1093386.1751806626667@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <27C49D2F-4FA8-45D5-8FFF-3CFE98E34C16@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5425986691948071002==" --===============5425986691948071002== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> On Jul 2, 2025, at 7:28=E2=80=AFAM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> I have the VAX 8600 Training Print Set and I sent it to someone (sorry, fo= rgot who) years ago. >>=20 >> There's at least one online version here: https://www.vaxhaven.com/images/= 0/04/EY-4818E-PP-0001.pdf >>=20 >> I don't know what, if anything, would be the difference between this and t= he normal MPxxxx drawings. >>=20 >> Antonio > > >That looks a bit like a block diagram, sort of a conceptual level schematic = as opposed to a detailed gate by gate schematic. > >It reminds me a bit of the "block diagram" manuals for the CDC 6600 supercom= puter, which shows most of the logic modules and the buses interconnecting th= em, along with the relevant >clock pulses (more or less accurately).=C2=A0 Bu= t there are also the wiring diagrams, which are the actual fully completed sc= hematics.=C2=A0 If you want to understand the machine, the block >diagrams ar= e excellent; if you want to replicate it, they are not sufficient and the wir= ing diagrams are actually what you need. > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 paul > Thanks a lot for this valuable information, Paul! --===============5425986691948071002==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jul 6 13:00:00 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 12:59:51 +0000 Message-ID: <61196592.1095471.1751806791555@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6609084550506223066==" --===============6609084550506223066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Michael, >We have an 8650 at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. Unfortunately I don't >think that there is any home of getting it running again. >https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-vax-8650 > >--=20 >Michael Thompson > What are the reasons to believe that there is only little hope for the one at= RICM?=C2=A0 Did you start to work on getting it up and running?=C2=A0 Indeed, if the boards are faulty, then it will be challenging to fix them or = find replacements, I guess.=20 Best regards,=20 Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de --===============6609084550506223066==-- From p.gebhardt@ymail.com Sun Jul 6 13:07:54 2025 From: P Gebhardt To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 13:07:47 +0000 Message-ID: <1935241389.1093656.1751807267235@mail.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <87FF8A16-2E81-4AF5-A6AD-AC891B668721@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9142029914432234413==" --===============9142029914432234413== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >> On Jul 2, 2025, at 11:13=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >> On 7/2/25 06:08, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >>> Dear list members, >>>=20 >>> I was wondering if anybody is aware of VAX 86x0 schematics having survive= d the product life cycle within DEC? I searched the web extensively but could= not find any hints on this. >>> It seems that DEC never published such details as schematics for the succ= essor of the VAX 11/78x systems, not even on microfiche, maybe due to the mac= rocell array >implementation (just a guess). All I could find is that there w= ere illustrated parts list on microfiche. >>> However, maybe Hewlett Packard handed DEC-internal documents over to a mu= seum such as the CHM? Or a former designer still have schematics in their arc= hives? >>> Any pointers would be greatly appreciated! >>=20 >> I did have a KA630-AA print set at one time.=C2=A0 That was about the late= st prints I have seen. >>=20 >> Jon > > >That makes some sense.=C2=A0 Print sets were needed in older machines becaus= e FE would actually replace failed components on a board.=C2=A0 With "swap th= e failed board" repair procedures, it >isn't all that useful for support engi= neers to know how a board works, much less what the detailed circuitry looks = like. > >=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 paul Being aware that field engineers would never fix board with MCA technology on= site drove me to the question if there may be former engineers that worked o= n the=C2=A0 8600 development that may still have the actual schematics anywhere? Or DEC-intern= al documents that may have made to HP who would have donored it to CHM for in= stance. But I guess that hopes can be kept very low on this.=20 The company I work for (I do electronics and FPGA design development) threw a= way all documents about special computer systems that they designed in the ea= rly 90's. This happened when two development sites were merged.=20 Typically, during such procedures, a big "clean-up" takes place to save space= and moving-related costs.=20 Just too bad that I happened to save one of those systems but no documentatio= n or schematics are around any more. Even the retired engineers, I contact so= far, did not have anything anymore... Best regards,=20 Pierre --===============9142029914432234413==-- From michael.99.thompson@gmail.com Sun Jul 6 14:54:50 2025 From: Michael Thompson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 10:54:31 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <61196592.1095471.1751806791555@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0943834887681106025==" --===============0943834887681106025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Pierre, We don=E2=80=99t have the power, cooling, or space in our display area to run= the 11/780 or the 8650. We don=E2=80=99t have any spare boards for either ma= chine, which would make debugging difficult. It looks like they will remain d= isplay pieces. > On Jul 6, 2025, at 9:05=E2=80=AFAM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello Michael, >=20 >> We have an 8650 at the Rhode Island Computer Museum. Unfortunately I don't >> think that there is any home of getting it running again. >> https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-vax-8650 >>=20 >> -- >> Michael Thompson >>=20 >=20 >=20 > What are the reasons to believe that there is only little hope for the one = at RICM?=20 > Did you start to work on getting it up and running?=20 > Indeed, if the boards are faulty, then it will be challenging to fix them o= r find > replacements, I guess. >=20 > Best regards, > Pierre >=20 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------= -- > http://www.digitalheritage.de >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============0943834887681106025==-- From tpisek@pobox.com Sun Jul 6 14:56:12 2025 From: trp To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM backplane story was Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 09:47:04 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <175173481055.1244.8418169291456916392@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0371412772335051123==" --===============0371412772335051123== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I worked part time at a computer center for a large bank while getting my und= ergraduate degree. The center was getting one of the first IBM 3081 machines to replace the exis= ting 3033 MP. Because of the helium filled modules, getting the machine from the climate co= ntrolled truck to the center, which was on the 7th floor of the bank building= was crazy; the move had to be accomplished in 30 minutes. As a dry run, IBM = supplied a size and weight dummy 3081 in advance to make sure the delivery we= nt smoothly. As you might imagine, the install and switch over to the 3081 was high profil= e. The VP in charge of the center was under pressure to get it done on schedu= le. The delivery and initial install went according to plan. The data was migrate= d to the new disks and the various application software was run through its p= aces.=20 Unfortunately, the 3081 would occasionally throw a power fault. The local FE= =E2=80=99s could not determine the cause, so after a week or so second level = support was called in. They could not figure it out, so IBM brought in Ivan (= I think that was his name). You know when you get the hot shot from IBM when = he arrives in bib overalls and tennis shoes, not a suit and 5 pound wingtips. After the second day, Ivan got tired of the stream of managers asking him whe= n the 3081 would be available, so he went down the the main bank floor and gr= abbed the thing (I cannot remember the proper name) banks used to use to crea= te teller lines (posts and satin =E2=80=9Cropes=E2=80=9D), and formed a cordo= ned area around the 3081=E2=80=99s console. Note that each computer console h= ad a telephone (1 for each 3033 and one for the new 3081) for communicating w= ith the computer operator. On the third day, the VP bypassed the cordon and asked Ivan when the 3081 wou= ld be operational and Ivan replied he was=E2=80=99t sure. The VP said he had = already told the president it would be up by the end of the day, and Ivan han= ded the VP the phone on the console and said, and I quote, =E2=80=9CCall some= one who cares=E2=80=9D. I kid you not, I still remember verbatim. Early afternoon of the third day, Ivan asked the Lead FE to get a torch. Ther= e was an awesome hardware store about 6 blocks away, so in about 20 minutes t= he torch was delivered.=20 The power bus on the 3081 had enormous cables composed stranded 4-6 large gau= ge wires that were soldered to large metal plates. Ivan had determined that t= he wires were improperly soldered and used the torch to resolder them.=20 You can imagine the horror on the faces of the staff as Ivan opened the power= bay, lit the torch, and started melting the solder. And it worked! No more power faults. =E2=80=94 Todd --===============0371412772335051123==-- From david@kdbarto.org Sun Jul 6 15:38:28 2025 From: "David [CCTALK] Barto" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 08:38:06 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4532364171142602536==" --===============4532364171142602536== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 5, 2025, at 5:55=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2025-07-05 1:34 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> On Jul 5, 2025, at 11:05=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>> On 7/4/25 14:32, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: >>>> Jon Elson's take hits home. A 780 was delivered and VMS was running. We >>>> installed 4.1BSD and it ran fine until it crashed. Field service insist= ed >>>> we needed a full set of RS-232 wires in our cable. Still crashed >>>> (surprise!). Switched to VMS, still crashed after a while. Local field >>>> service couldn't find it. The big guns flew in from Maynard. First day: >>>> Couldn't find it. Second day: "What, what's that wire doing there? Have= a >>>> wire-wrap tool?". Removed wire from backplane. Boots, runs. Engineer >>>> flies home. >>>=20 >>> Holy cow, HOW did he find it!!?? The KA780 backplane was a HUGE mass of = wires! >>>=20 >>> Jon >> If you understand the machine well enough and trace the broken data path a= round the machine, you can get there without too much trouble. That assumes = the issue is reasonably repeatable. If it only messes up once a day or so, i= t's harder, or at least more time consuming. >> Compared to CDC 6000 mainframes, the 780 (and other DEC computers) are mar= vels of simplicity. Consider the 6600: 15 chassis each with 750-ish module s= lots, each with 28 signal pins. A bunch of slots were filled instead by memo= ry modules (5 slots wide), but still you're looking at maybe 5000 wires (or r= ather, twisted pairs) per chassis, plus 30 or so cable assemblies each with 1= 9 coax inside, to run signals from one chassis to another (or to I/O devices)= . I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could d= o that in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. >=20 > And all the wires tuned to have the same delay I bet. >=20 >> paul > Ben. >=20 At Celerity Computing (later called Sun Supercomputing, long story) we starte= d by making small dishwasher sized deskside workstations. We were using an NCR RISC chip as our CPU, getting about 2 MIPS with a custom= FPU hand crafted from the most interesting parts. We wire-wrapped the first few boards and backplanes during R&D before we went= to production. We switched to a proper 6 layer PCB for the backplane. The backplane had 3 traces that had long curved lines in them to get the dela= y right. David Without others thinking you are good, it doesn't matter how good you think yo= u are. David Barto barto(a)kdbarto.org --===============4532364171142602536==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun Jul 6 16:46:02 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 12:45:44 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7401084144606511862==" --===============7401084144606511862== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit By any chance, do you remember what the setting/s was/were ? On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 8:29 AM Rod Bartlett via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Jul 4, 2025, at 8:08 PM, ben via cctalk > wrote: > > > > True, but you got field service, > > not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. > > Ben. > > PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that > was a mouse not the usb port. > > The Windows problem with misidentifying a serial port as a mouse still > exists in Windows 10. I discovered that connecting our small ARM based > embedded device to a Windows machine via its USB serial port sometimes > causes the Windows mouse cursor to go crazy. It took a while to find the > registry setting to disable serial mouse detection. > > - Rod > > --===============7401084144606511862==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Jul 6 17:17:18 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 13:16:56 -0400 Message-ID: <22611361-7BF3-45CF-97C9-B017D5526B2C@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2294925300181615405==" --===============2294925300181615405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 5, 2025, at 8:55=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2025-07-05 1:34 p.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> ... >> Compared to CDC 6000 mainframes, the 780 (and other DEC computers) are mar= vels of simplicity. Consider the 6600: 15 chassis each with 750-ish module s= lots, each with 28 signal pins. A bunch of slots were filled instead by memo= ry modules (5 slots wide), but still you're looking at maybe 5000 wires (or r= ather, twisted pairs) per chassis, plus 30 or so cable assemblies each with 1= 9 coax inside, to run signals from one chassis to another (or to I/O devices)= . I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could d= o that in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. >=20 > And all the wires tuned to have the same delay I bet. >=20 >> paul > Ben. No, and in fact some of the details are maddening. Many of the wires are fairly short, a natural length for the distance between= modules. But a non-trivial fraction is significantly longer, and some of th= e time it's possible to look at the circuit details and figure out why. But = not always. An extreme example is the master clock oscillator in 6600 serial number 1 thr= ough 7: that is a ring oscillator, with 96 inch interconnecting wires to prov= ide the correct delay between the phases (25 ns, the sum of wire and circuit = delays). But there are plenty of other places where "odd" wire lengths appea= r. In attempting to create a working gate level VHDL model of the 6600 I cho= se to model the delay of "long" wires, while ignoring the delay of short wire= s. That works reasonably well. Replacing the clock distribution tree by a b= ehavioral model of a multiphase clock (using the clock offsets shown in the b= lock diagrams) helps some more and also speeds up the simulation. But it doe= sn't completely work even so. It doesn't help that the block diagrams and th= e wire lists sometimes disagree about the clock phase. And it's really crazy= to be confronted with an R/S flipflop where the R and S signals are both ass= erted simultaneously, with pulses that exactly match if I do what the diagram= s say. Obviously that's not correct, but what would be correct and how to ac= hieve it is far from clear. BTW, the 6600 is usually described as having a 100 ns clock. Some more diggi= ng shows a four-phase clock, i.e., with edges offset by 25 ns. That is how m= uch of the machine is clocked. But the guts of the CPU has what amounts to a= 20 phase clock, with clock positions specified as multiples of 5 ns. Not ev= ery phase is used but a surprising number of them is, and it matters -- you d= on't stand a chance emulating the CPU's instruction scheduling logic with jus= t four clock phases, paul --===============2294925300181615405==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Sun Jul 6 17:29:35 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 13:29:18 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5910360911613166283==" --===============5910360911613166283== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 5, 2025, at 10:14=E2=80=AFPM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 2:40=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >> I assume those were all done by hand; it's not obvious how a robot could d= o that in the early 1960s, unlike wire wrap backplanes. >=20 > Nice page on the hand-assembly of early Cray systems with cool pictures: >=20 > https://cray-history.net/2022/08/28/sonjas-story-about-cray-1-fabrication-a= nd-assembly/ Wow, very nice! The CDC 6000 backplanes look quite similar but they are much bigger. https:/= /upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/CDC_6600.jc.jpg Speaking of core memory: conventional RAM is easy to wire (with steady hands)= because the cores can be set in a holding jig and the wires then are threade= d straight through. But there are core ROMs, and in those the data patterns = are defined by wires that either go through or skip around a given core. And= you have a whole bunch of wires (32 or more) per core. So you end up with a= row of cores and a big bundle of wires randomly zigzagging in and out of the= cores. The name "core rope memory" came from what that looks like. Occasionally such ROMs use cores that are merely transformer cores, for examp= le in an early Wang calculator. But the earlier designs used memory type cor= es, essentially acting as logic elements. That is the case both for the best= known example, the Apollo spacecraft on board computer, and for the Dutch El= ectrologica X-1 (which uses a different structure with faster data access tim= ing). In fact, conventional RAM core memory also uses the cores as logic elements, = they are not simply bit storage devices. The point is that each core essenti= ally performs an AND operation on the wire current of the wires running throu= gh it, with the read operation defined as Xsel and Ysel, and the write as Xse= l and Ysel and not Inhibit. The magnetic properties of the cores make this p= ossible. Some early logic circuits were magnetic ones, built out of memory c= ores. I remember a device documented in the ham radio magazine QST (mid 1960= s) that used magnetic core shift register. And Ken Olsen (founder of DEC) go= t his MS from MIT via a thesis on magnetic core logic devices. (Oh yes, and = his name appears as contributor to the Apollo computer ROM design.) paul --===============5910360911613166283==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Sun Jul 6 17:37:16 2025 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 13:28:00 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6909087576330167168==" --===============6909087576330167168== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a Confl= uence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the problem c= rops up. https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ - Rod > On Jul 6, 2025, at 12:45=E2=80=AFPM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >=20 > By any chance, do you remember what the setting/s was/were ? >=20 >=20 > On Sat, Jul 5, 2025 at 8:29=E2=80=AFAM Rod Bartlett via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 >>=20 >>> On Jul 4, 2025, at 8:08=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> True, but you got field service, >>> not some AI telling you read web page xxx, with a dead computer. >>> Ben. >>> PS: serial port had some active input on boot, and windows thought that >> was a mouse not the usb port. >>=20 >> The Windows problem with misidentifying a serial port as a mouse still >> exists in Windows 10. I discovered that connecting our small ARM based >> embedded device to a Windows machine via its USB serial port sometimes >> causes the Windows mouse cursor to go crazy. It took a while to find the >> registry setting to disable serial mouse detection. >>=20 >> - Rod >>=20 >>=20 --===============6909087576330167168==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 6 17:55:40 2025 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 11:55:28 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7448578421157403315==" --===============7448578421157403315== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025-07-06 11:28 a.m., Rod Bartlett via cctalk wrote: > Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a Con= fluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the problem= crops up. >=20 > https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ >=20 Reads post, I have no Windows key on my keyboard, can I use Any other key? Ben. With a real IBM keyboard. - --===============7448578421157403315==-- From glg@grebus.com Sun Jul 6 18:29:03 2025 From: Gary Grebus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 14:21:26 -0400 Message-ID: <83bee281-ced5-4599-aaee-fe650e00385f@grebus.com> In-Reply-To: <9aae1d95-a0cf-f46d-487c-1d1fd54c92f9@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0186350337009438907==" --===============0186350337009438907== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/4/25 11:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > We had a TU77 on a VAX 11/780.  (Should have waited for the TU78.) Maybe not. IIRC, the TU78 had a bunch of teething problems. I definitely remember many 2 AM phone calls from the night shift operators when the overnight backup runs failed (I think the tape would run off the end of the reel). Much back and forth with the DEC hardware and VMS engineers before it finally got fixed. Gary --===============0186350337009438907==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Sun Jul 6 20:16:15 2025 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 16:15:56 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83bee281-ced5-4599-aaee-fe650e00385f@grebus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4450377756080209972==" --===============4450377756080209972== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/6/2025 2:21 PM, Gary Grebus via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/4/25 11:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> We had a TU77 on a VAX 11/780.  (Should have waited for the TU78.) > > Maybe not.  IIRC, the TU78 had a bunch of teething problems.  I > definitely remember many 2 AM phone calls from the night shift operators > when the overnight backup runs failed (I think the tape would run off > the end of the reel).  Much back and forth with the DEC hardware and VMS > engineers before it finally got fixed. I seem to remember a number of tapes that would do that in those days. Anybody here ever use an Exatron Stringy Floppy. Didn't run off the reel because it was like an 8-track. But it would happily loop all the way around and write over the beginning of the tape making it unusable. :-) bill --===============4450377756080209972==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Sun Jul 6 20:23:52 2025 From: Rod Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 16:05:50 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3084237323181122223==" --===============3084237323181122223== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 6, 2025, at 1:55=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2025-07-06 11:28 a.m., Rod Bartlett via cctalk wrote: >> Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a Co= nfluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the proble= m crops up. >> https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ > Reads post, I have no Windows key on my keyboard, can I use Any other key? > Ben. With a real IBM keyboard. I think you can replace that portion of the procedure by starting your search= for "regedit" in the search portion of the taskbar. My work laptop is the o= nly Windows machine I have available and it's been updated to Windows 11. Ba= rring that, I think regedit can also be found in File Explorer at C:\Windows\= regedit.exe. However you find it, I believe you'll need to right click it an= d choose "Run as administrator". The rest of the procedure should be the sam= e. I've done this on 4 or 5 Windows machines in our lab at work so far and s= o far it's worked for all of them. It amazes me that Windows still retains the serial mouse support. I don't th= ink I've seen an actual serial mouse in more than 20 years. - Rod --===============3084237323181122223==-- From frank.ventura@littlebreezes.com Sun Jul 6 21:06:17 2025 From: Frank Ventura To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 21:06:07 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9053488945986096334==" --===============9053488945986096334== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable My fingers prefer to type CONTROL ESCAPE and then type "Regedit". Useful when= running Windows Server in a VM on my Mac Book. That blog post reminds me of = something that happened about 20 years ago, circa 2003. I had a Freedom Scien= tific Braille and Speak Note taker with a RS232 cable connected to a physical= serial DB9 port on my Win 2k desktop computer. With the Braille and Speak in= terminal mode and serial keys enabled in Windows I could type in Braille on = the B&S and get alphanumeric serial input in Windows. Oddly enough though wit= h this working I sometimes got errant input if I had other devices enabled li= ke the USB to serial connection to my Windows Mobile PDA. What I wouldn=E2=80= =99t give to have a working B&S (or similar) today. Frank -----Original Message----- From: Rod Bartlett via cctalk =20 Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2025 1:06 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Rod Bartlett Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story > On Jul 6, 2025, at 1:55=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 2025-07-06 11:28 a.m., Rod Bartlett via cctalk wrote: >> Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a Co= nfluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the proble= m crops up. >> https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ > Reads post, I have no Windows key on my keyboard, can I use Any other key? > Ben. With a real IBM keyboard. I think you can replace that portion of the procedure by starting your search= for "regedit" in the search portion of the taskbar. My work laptop is the o= nly Windows machine I have available and it's been updated to Windows 11. Ba= rring that, I think regedit can also be found in File Explorer at C:\Windows\= regedit.exe. However you find it, I believe you'll need to right click it an= d choose "Run as administrator". The rest of the procedure should be the sam= e. I've done this on 4 or 5 Windows machines in our lab at work so far and s= o far it's worked for all of them. It amazes me that Windows still retains the serial mouse support. I don't th= ink I've seen an actual serial mouse in more than 20 years. - Rod --===============9053488945986096334==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Sun Jul 6 21:28:22 2025 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 21:28:14 +0000 Message-ID: <08f5de962c4543c8a7713de1bf114307@emeritus-solutions.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0930277861578985975==" --===============0930277861578985975== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Nagle's algorithm is another legacy from the past which can require the whack= a mole treatment. And, I am certain there are many more. Designed for the 9600 baud era (1980's), it remains in the Gbaud era - not he= lpful for timely TCP/IP console traffic to real time systems Martin << snip >> It amazes me that Windows still retains the serial mouse support. I don't th= ink I've seen an actual serial mouse in more than 20 years. - Rod --===============0930277861578985975==-- From norwayjose@mac.com Sun Jul 6 22:47:44 2025 From: Roderick Bartlett To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 18:47:32 -0400 Message-ID: <2BB4D424-F240-4A20-9F94-4472F31812FA@mac.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CMN0PR13MB6737A525BB14484F61ED11F1F44CA=40MN0PR13MB?= =?utf-8?q?6737=2Enamprd13=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3300923171251992871==" --===============3300923171251992871== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks! That's good to know. I'll freely admit that I haven't run a version= of Windows at home since Windows 2000 which was the last version I had a han= d in developing device drivers for (ADSL modems for 3Com). Since the I've of= ten been forced to use a Windows laptop for work but in most cases, it just o= nly serves to provide terminal connections to a Linux development machine. I= do embedded firmware and the Linux tools are much better. - Rod > On Jul 6, 2025, at 5:15=E2=80=AFPM, Frank Ventura via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFMy fingers prefer to type CONTROL ESCAPE and then type "Regedit". = Useful when running Windows Server in a VM on my Mac Book. That blog post rem= inds me of something that happened about 20 years ago, circa 2003. I had a Fr= eedom Scientific Braille and Speak Note taker with a RS232 cable connected to= a physical serial DB9 port on my Win 2k desktop computer. With the Braille a= nd Speak in terminal mode and serial keys enabled in Windows I could type in = Braille on the B&S and get alphanumeric serial input in Windows. Oddly enough= though with this working I sometimes got errant input if I had other devices= enabled like the USB to serial connection to my Windows Mobile PDA. What I w= ouldn=E2=80=99t give to have a working B&S (or similar) today. > Frank >=20 >=20 > -----Original Message----- > From: Rod Bartlett via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, July 6, 2025 1:06 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Rod Bartlett > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story >=20 >> On Jul 6, 2025, at 1:55=E2=80=AFPM, ben via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On 2025-07-06 11:28 a.m., Rod Bartlett via cctalk wrote: >>> Here's the directions since it was somewhat non-intuitive. I created a C= onfluence page at work but everyone asks me to disable it each time the probl= em crops up. >>> https://paulhutch.blog/2019/06/24/disable-serial-mouse-detection/ >> Reads post, I have no Windows key on my keyboard, can I use Any other key? >> Ben. With a real IBM keyboard. >=20 >=20 > I think you can replace that portion of the procedure by starting your sear= ch for "regedit" in the search portion of the taskbar. My work laptop is the= only Windows machine I have available and it's been updated to Windows 11. = Barring that, I think regedit can also be found in File Explorer at C:\Window= s\regedit.exe. However you find it, I believe you'll need to right click it = and choose "Run as administrator". The rest of the procedure should be the s= ame. I've done this on 4 or 5 Windows machines in our lab at work so far and= so far it's worked for all of them. >=20 > It amazes me that Windows still retains the serial mouse support. I don't = think I've seen an actual serial mouse in more than 20 years. >=20 > - Rod >=20 >=20 --===============3300923171251992871==-- From brendan@mcneill.co.nz Sun Jul 6 23:08:43 2025 From: Brendan McNeill To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM backplane story was Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 23:08:32 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1560605774036067994==" --===============1560605774036067994== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I=E2=80=99m loving these stories, those of us who were field engineers have m= any to share. I started out as an FE with CDC in the 1970=E2=80=99s here in New Zealand and= then moved to Data General five years later. CDC was a very conservative, b= utton downed company - For example, no new systems were installed until the c= omplete spares kit had arrived, everything was properly documented. DG on t= he other hand was the wild west by comparison. The only thing that mattered = was quarterly revenues. Sure, spare parts existed but not always where you wa= nted them to be located! One time I took a call for a disk related problem at a remote site on the Wes= t Coast of New Zealand. The customer had a DG commercial system like the one= in this advertisement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLPqqjRBqhHI and a c= ouple of =E2=80=98zebra=E2=80=99 100mb disks, of the washing machine size. T= he system disk had failed and they couldn=E2=80=99t reboot from it. Fortuna= tely they hadn=E2=80=99t powered it off as the voice coil had gone open circu= it. No spare parts of course, so I manually retracted the heads, powered off= the drive, removed the voice coil and used a scalpel to cut away the former = around the area where the external wires entered the coil. Re-crimped the wi= res, obtained some epoxy resin from a hardware store, and a couple of ice cre= ams on a stick. Used the sticks as a =E2=80=98former=E2=80=99 to hold the ep= oxy resin. Half an hour later they were back up and running. The disk never= failed again. --------------//---------------- brendan(a)mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From: trp via cctalk Date: Monday, 7 July 2025 at 03:05 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: trp Subject: [cctalk] IBM backplane story was Re: Another 780 backplane story I worked part time at a computer center for a large bank while getting my und= ergraduate degree. The center was getting one of the first IBM 3081 machines to replace the exis= ting 3033 MP. Because of the helium filled modules, getting the machine from the climate co= ntrolled truck to the center, which was on the 7th floor of the bank building= was crazy; the move had to be accomplished in 30 minutes. As a dry run, IBM = supplied a size and weight dummy 3081 in advance to make sure the delivery we= nt smoothly. As you might imagine, the install and switch over to the 3081 was high profil= e. The VP in charge of the center was under pressure to get it done on schedu= le. The delivery and initial install went according to plan. The data was migrate= d to the new disks and the various application software was run through its p= aces. Unfortunately, the 3081 would occasionally throw a power fault. The local FE= =E2=80=99s could not determine the cause, so after a week or so second level = support was called in. They could not figure it out, so IBM brought in Ivan (= I think that was his name). You know when you get the hot shot from IBM when = he arrives in bib overalls and tennis shoes, not a suit and 5 pound wingtips. After the second day, Ivan got tired of the stream of managers asking him whe= n the 3081 would be available, so he went down the the main bank floor and gr= abbed the thing (I cannot remember the proper name) banks used to use to crea= te teller lines (posts and satin =E2=80=9Cropes=E2=80=9D), and formed a cordo= ned area around the 3081=E2=80=99s console. Note that each computer console h= ad a telephone (1 for each 3033 and one for the new 3081) for communicating w= ith the computer operator. On the third day, the VP bypassed the cordon and asked Ivan when the 3081 wou= ld be operational and Ivan replied he was=E2=80=99t sure. The VP said he had = already told the president it would be up by the end of the day, and Ivan han= ded the VP the phone on the console and said, and I quote, =E2=80=9CCall some= one who cares=E2=80=9D. I kid you not, I still remember verbatim. Early afternoon of the third day, Ivan asked the Lead FE to get a torch. Ther= e was an awesome hardware store about 6 blocks away, so in about 20 minutes t= he torch was delivered. The power bus on the 3081 had enormous cables composed stranded 4-6 large gau= ge wires that were soldered to large metal plates. Ivan had determined that t= he wires were improperly soldered and used the torch to resolder them. You can imagine the horror on the faces of the staff as Ivan opened the power= bay, lit the torch, and started melting the solder. And it worked! No more power faults. =E2=80=94 Todd --===============1560605774036067994==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Jul 7 00:28:03 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 19:27:50 -0500 Message-ID: <4d63eddb-22c1-b28e-b4d1-5e53234bfbc7@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3908078649825033090==" --===============3908078649825033090== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/6/25 09:54, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: > Pierre, > > We don=E2=80=99t have the power, cooling, or space in our display area to r= un the 11/780 The great thing about the 780 was that (aside from fixed=20 control store) there were no exotic chips in it.=C2=A0 Almost any=20 IC in the machine was standard 74S, 74AS or 74F series=20 logic.=C2=A0 So, you could keep one running for a LONG time with=20 just chip swapping.=C2=A0 And, of course, the machine was shipped=20 with a HUGE print set, about 2-3 inches thick of 11 X 17 sheets. The power dissipation wasn't that huge, also. Jon --===============3908078649825033090==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Mon Jul 7 00:35:00 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VAX 86x0 schematics Date: Sun, 06 Jul 2025 19:34:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <83bee281-ced5-4599-aaee-fe650e00385f@grebus.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0772678014155365126==" --===============0772678014155365126== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/6/25 13:21, Gary Grebus via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/4/25 11:07, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > >> We had a TU77 on a VAX 11/780.  (Should have waited for >> the TU78.) > > Maybe not.  IIRC, the TU78 had a bunch of teething > problems.  I definitely remember many 2 AM phone calls > from the night shift operators when the overnight backup > runs failed (I think the tape would run off the end of the > reel).  Much back and forth with the DEC hardware and VMS > engineers before it finally got fixed. We had a very early TU77, and went through a bunch of issues with it, TOO!  mostly due to tape overheating and sticking to the heads.  You could hear it from the next room, a pop-pop-pop every time the tape started moving.  Cleaning the heads every 3-4 tapes during backup. Jon --===============0772678014155365126==-- From useddec@gmail.com Mon Jul 7 08:45:30 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP8-A parts Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 03:45:13 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6662769977530036788==" --===============6662769977530036788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As requested, here is a partial list of the 8-A parts available. I have a few more to go through, but most are on here except for possibly a 128K memory board. I have some omnibus boards, M8357 RX8e, LA180, LQP, etc, and will try to make a list next week. If you need something not on here, please ask. I have at least one of each of the following, and more than one of some. G8016 G8018 H9194 12 slot 8-A backplane limited front panel programmers panel MM8-AA MM8-AB M8315 M8316 M8317 M8319 M8416 M8417 Also some non dec: REMEX PC8E core memory A complete 8-A mounted in the desk with RX02s. It's currently in the back of a 20 or 25 foot rental locker, but I hope to get it out this summer. It came with a LA35 and maybe a VT52. --===============6662769977530036788==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Mon Jul 7 13:40:56 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM backplane story was Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 09:40:36 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSEZPR06MB5692BB4EADB870270633F4FAFA4CA=40SEZPR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5692=2Eapcprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2800844936270017079==" --===============2800844936270017079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 6, 2025, at 7:08=E2=80=AFPM, Brendan McNeill via cctalk wrote: >=20 > I=E2=80=99m loving these stories, those of us who were field engineers have= many to share. >=20 > I started out as an FE with CDC in the 1970=E2=80=99s here in New Zealand a= nd then moved to Data General five years later. CDC was a very conservative,= button downed company - For example, no new systems were installed until the= complete spares kit had arrived, everything was properly documented. DG on= the other hand was the wild west by comparison. The only thing that mattere= d was quarterly revenues. Sure, spare parts existed but not always where you = wanted them to be located! >=20 > One time I took a call for a disk related problem at a remote site on the W= est Coast of New Zealand. The customer had a DG commercial system like the o= ne in this advertisement: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DLPqqjRBqhHI and a= couple of =E2=80=98zebra=E2=80=99 100mb disks, of the washing machine size. = The system disk had failed and they couldn=E2=80=99t reboot from it. Fortu= nately they hadn=E2=80=99t powered it off as the voice coil had gone open cir= cuit. No spare parts of course, so I manually retracted the heads, powered o= ff the drive, removed the voice coil and used a scalpel to cut away the forme= r around the area where the external wires entered the coil. Re-crimped the = wires, obtained some epoxy resin from a hardware store, and a couple of ice c= reams on a stick. Used the sticks as a =E2=80=98former=E2=80=99 to hold the = epoxy resin. Half an hour later they were back up and running. The disk nev= er failed again. That's a nice job, indeed. It's like the hard drive motor bearing replacemen= t I mentioned, or another repair I saw on an IBM 1311 drive, where the hydrau= lic head actuator sprung a leak. I assume the leak repair involved standard = spares, but the FE dealt with the oil spray by carefully cleaning the heads a= nd pack. Conveniently I could get high purity (reagent grade) isopropyl alco= hol for that job, from the chemistry department stock room. Worked great, no= problem booting the pack after the repair. paul --===============2800844936270017079==-- From marvin@west.net Mon Jul 7 23:52:46 2025 From: Marvin Johnston To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 16:45:57 -0700 Message-ID: <44f8d3d4-dfce-47bc-9152-a913b5adeeb4@west.net> In-Reply-To: <175190761186.1244.3144273092793714513@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4588528888315888737==" --===============4588528888315888737== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While not on a 780 back plane, about 50 years ago, I was basically in charge of some 26 PDP16M computers. Periodically, one of the chips would be found with the top blown off. At some point, I pulled the computer and examined the backplane filled with wirewrap wires. The solution turned out to be fairly simple... a -15V bus was about .001" near one of the wirewrap posts. A slight moving of that bus away from the wirewrap post solved that problem. I have to assume it was a temperature related problem since increasing that spacing solved the problem. Unrelated to the computer problem, another source of angst was intermittently one of those computers would crash. That one took probably a year to find... one of the interface M series pullup cards had a pulldown card installed in its place. I should mention all the above took place on a newly install system. Marvin --===============4588528888315888737==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Tue Jul 8 00:42:56 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 20:42:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <44f8d3d4-dfce-47bc-9152-a913b5adeeb4@west.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1752028924119324989==" --===============1752028924119324989== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 7, 2025, at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >=20 > While not on a 780 back plane, about 50 years ago, I was basically in charg= e of some 26 PDP16M computers. Periodically, one of the chips would be found = with the top blown off. At some point, I pulled the computer and examined the= backplane filled with wirewrap wires. >=20 > The solution turned out to be fairly simple... a -15V bus was about .001" n= ear one of the wirewrap posts. A slight moving of that bus away from the wire= wrap post solved that problem. I have to assume it was a temperature related = problem since increasing that spacing solved the problem. >=20 > Unrelated to the computer problem, another source of angst was intermittent= ly one of those computers would crash. That one took probably a year to find.= .. one of the interface M series pullup cards had a pulldown card installed i= n its place. I was pretty involved (as a student staff member) with a college main timesha= ring system, an 11/20 running RSTS/11, that would crash roughly once a day. = DEC spent ridiculous amounts of time on it, including bringing in assorted wi= zards from Maynard. Eventually the simply replaced the system by an 11/45 ru= nning RSTS/E, calling that a "replacement part" :-) About 10 years ago I happened to run into one of those wizards on the NetBSD = kernel hacker's list, and reminded him of that situation and the fact that it= was never diagnosed. He replied "sure it was: we figured it was due to the = FM transmitter down the hall". Oh. Yes, the college radio station, a 5 kW FM transmitter, was located in a = closet about 100 feet from the computer center. And the 11/20 predated FCC E= MI/EMC standards, so that is indeed somewhat plausible. Curious that we were= n't told about it, though. paul --===============1752028924119324989==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Jul 8 01:37:27 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Mon, 07 Jul 2025 20:37:18 -0500 Message-ID: <55f31b3e-6432-5bdd-9ad6-30f02ba4c5a4@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7276599532470207630==" --===============7276599532470207630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/7/25 19:42, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 7, 2025, at 7:45=E2=80=AFPM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >> >> While not on a 780 back plane, about 50 years ago, I was basically in char= ge of some 26 PDP16M computers. Periodically, one of the chips would be found= with the top blown off. At some point, I pulled the computer and examined th= e backplane filled with wirewrap wires. >> >> The solution turned out to be fairly simple... a -15V bus was about .001" = near one of the wirewrap posts. A slight moving of that bus away from the wir= ewrap post solved that problem. I have to assume it was a temperature related= problem since increasing that spacing solved the problem. >> >> Unrelated to the computer problem, another source of angst was intermitten= tly one of those computers would crash. That one took probably a year to find= ... one of the interface M series pullup cards had a pulldown card installed = in its place. > I was pretty involved (as a student staff member) with a college main times= haring system, an 11/20 running RSTS/11, that would crash roughly once a day.= DEC spent ridiculous amounts of time on it, including bringing in assorted = wizards from Maynard. Eventually the simply replaced the system by an 11/45 = running RSTS/E, calling that a "replacement part" :-) > > About 10 years ago I happened to run into one of those wizards on the NetBS= D kernel hacker's list, and reminded him of that situation and the fact that = it was never diagnosed. He replied "sure it was: we figured it was due to th= e FM transmitter down the hall". > > Oh. Yes, the college radio station, a 5 kW FM transmitter, was located in = a closet about 100 feet from the computer center. And the 11/20 predated FCC= EMI/EMC standards, so that is indeed somewhat plausible. Curious that we we= ren't told about it, though. I maintained an 11/45 (SN 343) so, maybe that was an early=20 one, but I SURE didn't consider it an RFI-tolerant=20 construction.=C2=A0 There were no doors with RF gaskets, etc.=C2=A0=20 Ours did run quite well, except that the AMP Mate-n-Lok=20 power connectors on the regulator modules kept burning up. Jon Jon --===============7276599532470207630==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Jul 8 07:53:38 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 02:53:20 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <0a0c976a-8195-6023-7934-50a95849f4a4@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4582057793414853756==" --===============4582057793414853756== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon, I found someone in the Chicago area who can test and repair the power supply. He'll pick it up in a few weeks and drop it off at VCF. Please let me know exactly what you want, and make an offer on it. I'll have to factor in testing/repair. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Jul 3, 2025 at 9:49=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/2/25 22:47, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > I can't find anyone to test the power supplies, but I'll try to pull one > > and test it for you in the next week or so. > > > OK great, thanks so much! Really shouldn't be that big a > deal, I assume these supplies will run with no load. I hope > they don't have the dreaded Rifa capacitors. > > Jon > > --===============4582057793414853756==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Jul 8 08:40:10 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Update on Qbus backplanes Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 03:39:46 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2148315586759178766==" --===============2148315586759178766== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit For those of you who wanted the Qbus backplanes here is the list. I've been moving things around and found them while looking for something else. Please contact me off list with any questions. H9270 4 x 4 used in the BA11-M for the original PDP11/03 H9270 with card cage complete 11/03 box, boards available H9276-B H9276-B with card cage H9278-A 2x12 micro backplane with card cage BA123-A Sygma 4x8 with card cage Heath --===============2148315586759178766==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Tue Jul 8 14:52:33 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 09:52:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3907042769376954441==" --===============3907042769376954441== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/8/25 02:53, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I found someone in the Chicago area who can test and repair the power > supply. He'll pick it up in a few weeks and drop it off at VCF. > > Please let me know exactly what you want, and make an offer on it. I'll > have to factor in testing/repair. > Well, I really don't know what range of money to offer.  Can you give me a hint? Maybe we should move this discussion off of the list, too. Thanks, Jon --===============3907042769376954441==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Jul 8 19:19:01 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 14:18:43 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0565869550331206042==" --===============0565869550331206042== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Opps, I thought we were off list. On Tue, Jul 8, 2025 at 10:00=E2=80=AFAM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/8/25 02:53, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Jon, > > > > I found someone in the Chicago area who can test and repair the power > > supply. He'll pick it up in a few weeks and drop it off at VCF. > > > > Please let me know exactly what you want, and make an offer on it. I'll > > have to factor in testing/repair. > > > Well, I really don't know what range of money to offer. Can > you give me a hint? > > Maybe we should move this discussion off of the list, too. > > Thanks, > > Jon > > --===============0565869550331206042==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Tue Jul 8 21:30:41 2025 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Burroughs backplane story, was Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 21:30:36 +0000 Message-ID: <175201023609.1228.2550589532797629102@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0688820892030129999==" --===============0688820892030129999== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable In early 1971, I started working as an on-site software tech on a rather larg= e (for the time), dual-processor Burroughs B6500. It was early days for that = system, and we had a lot of problems with it in the field. We got those irone= d out pretty well and eventually got the system up to an acceptable level of = operation. About a year later, a major upgrade to the MCP (the OS) was released. A major= component of that release was a completely rewritten I/O subsystem with much= higher reliability and much, much better performance, especially in "Logical= I/O," the interface between user programs and the memory buffers and physica= l I/O mechanism. Soon after installing this release, we started to get fatal = system crashes in Logical I/O. Describing what was happening requires a little background on the system arch= itecture. The B6500, like its predecessor the B5500, is known as an ALGOL-ori= ented stack machine, but it is less well-known as a type of capability system= . To support that, it used a segmented memory model and tagged memory. Each w= ord had an extra three bits, not accessible to user programs, that identified= the type of data in a word. For example, tag 0 was ordinary data, tag 2 indi= cated a double-precision word, tag 5 was a data descriptor through which data= segments were addressed, and tag 7 was a Program Control Word (PCW) that eff= ectively addressed a location in an object-code segment. It was used primaril= y as a procedure (subroutine) entry-point address. In reading the dumps from the crashes and the MCP source code, we started to = learn how the new Logical I/O mechanism worked. It cleverly used the stack ad= dressing of the system to implement a very object-oriented interface. The "me= thods" of this interface were small procedures that were customized to handle= very specific cases of record handling -- random vs. sequential I/O, blocked= vs. unblocked I/O, translation or no translation, etc. There were scores of these methods. The idea was do a little as possible for = each user request and to avoid making as many decisions as possible and to op= timize the buffer handling in each case. There were about a half-dozen differ= ent types of user requests, and the methods for those were accessed through a= branch table in the FIB (control block) for each open file. That branch tabl= e contained PCWs for the appropriate methods needed by that file. The table w= as set up during file open, but could be changed as the nature of the user pr= ogram's requests changed, e.g., from sequential to random access. We discovered that the crash was caused by some PCWs in the file-level branch= tables having tags of 5 instead of tags of 7. Attempting to call a procedure= using a tag-5 word was a no-no that was trapped by the hardware, hence the f= atal dump. Then we discovered that the branch tables were loaded from a maste= r array of PCWs for all of the possible methods, and when we looked at that a= rray in the dump, ALL of the PCWs in the array had tags of 5! We know that ar= ray initially had to have had words with tags of 7, because the system had ru= n for quite a while before crashing, so how could all of the words in the arr= ay suddenly have changed to tags of 5? There wasn't any straightforward way t= o do that in software. That master array was loaded from from the OS image on disk at the initial bo= ot, but then we found out the array was overlayable -- it could be paged out = and back in by the virtual memory mechanism. So we began to suspect there was= an issue with I/O. Normally, a disk read stored words in memory with a const= ant tag of 0, but there was a special I/O mode, termed "tag transfer," that w= ould read and write the tag bits along with the regular data bits. Fortunately, the other tech on the site had worked in the MCP group for a whi= le and knew the I/O hardware pretty well, so he started writing some standalo= ne programs to exercise the hardware in specific ways. This system had two I/= O Multiplexors (multi-channel DMA units) numbered 0 and 1, and the disk drive= s were dual-ported so that either Mux could address any of them. My colleague= 's programs tried doing I/Os with various combinations of Mux and channel ass= ignments. And as you might expect by now, he discovered that doing a tag tran= sfer read through Mux 1 always dropped the middle tag bit. We turned that finding over to the on-site Field Engineers, who pulled out th= eir schematics and started tracing signals. It took several hours, but eventu= ally they discovered not a loose wire, but that Mux 1 was completely missing = a wire. Of course, it was the wire that carried the middle bit of the tag dur= ing tag transfer. We finally deduced that the problem had been present since the system left th= e factory floor. The original I/O software had been so poor that the system w= as seldom (if ever) able to initiate more than one I/O to disk at a time, but= the new version we had recently installed was really good at initiating mult= iple I/Os. Mux 1 had a lower selection priority than Mux 0, so under the old = software it was seldom selected, and perhaps never so for tag transfer I/Os, = which are relatively rare. The new software allowed the system to get busy en= ough that Mux 1 started to be used a lot more often, and eventually it got bu= sy enough that a paging I/O for that master PCW array got scheduled to Mux 1,= and the system just didn't survive for very long after that. --===============0688820892030129999==-- From useddec@gmail.com Tue Jul 8 21:44:22 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 16:44:03 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5220044065177069958==" --===============5220044065177069958== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I just found someone to rest some power supplies, and he will bring them to VCFMW. I have both the G8016 and G8018, but don't remember which is used for core. I can configure the boxes almost any way you want. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 11:54 AM Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > u have spare pdp8a power supply thts good? for the one with core memory > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 11:39 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi Peter, > > > > The BA11-M is the 4 x 4 box for the 11/03, and I would not recommend it > for > > an 11/23 or 23+. The BA11-SA would be my pick. > > > > I can ship them. Where are you located? > > > > Thanks, Paul > > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 11:04 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Where are you located? I wouldn't mind a BA11-M box for my 11/23-PLUS. > > > I have a feeling shipping would be pretty high for one of those. > > > > > > -Peter > > > > > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 3:14 AM Paul Anderson via cctalk < > > > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > As many of you know I have been trying to finish organizing my Unibus > > > parts > > > > and finish building several systems for years. Other than time and my > > > > health I don't have enough space. I would like to sell, at reasonable > > > > prices, all of my q-bus parts which include 400 - 500 boards, about a > > > dozen > > > > boxes, and a lot of spare parts. I have BA11-M, BA11-N, BA11-S and a > > few > > > > BA23 boxes left. > > > > > > > > If you have an original 11/03, I have a dozen or so H780 power > > supplies, > > > > which are very hard to find. They are also used in the Vax 11/780 > front > > > > end, the > > > > RKV11-D and possibly a few other items. I can test them if I have > time, > > > but > > > > that might take awhile. > > > > > > > > I'm also taking offers on some of my 8-E and all of my 8-A items. I > > will > > > > entertain offers on the VT14 and all of the PDP 14 industrial > > controller > > > > parts. > > > > > > > > I have a few Vax 3000, 5000, and a few others along with parts > > including > > > > memory. > > > > > > > > Those of you who have been here know I have a ton of DEC and > > > > DEC-compatible parts, but no one has seen everything. I have brand > new > > > > disk heads, tape drive heads, alignment packs, and literally tons > > more. I > > > > went through over 50 backplanes a few weeks ago looking for a few > > > specific > > > > ones. > > > > > > > > Some Unibus items are also going. Probable some 11/05s, 11/34s, 11/83 > > > > and/or 84s and a lot of options and boards. > > > > > > > > So if you need or are thinking about DEC items, feel free to send me > a > > > wish > > > > list off list. > > > > > > > > I prefer phone calls and will send my number upon request. I was > never > > > > great at typing and I'm getting worse. > > > > > > > > Oh- I also trade for US and foreign coins and currency. > > > > > > > > Thank, Paul > > > > > > > > > > --===============5220044065177069958==-- From f.heite@hccnet.nl Wed Jul 9 21:36:05 2025 From: Freek Heite To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Burroughs backplane story, was Re: Another 780 backplane story Date: Wed, 09 Jul 2025 23:20:00 +0200 Message-ID: <000001dbf117$3a9a1580$afce4080$@hccnet.nl> In-Reply-To: <175208040963.1244.1083963406884878220@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4231852170776504458==" --===============4231852170776504458== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ah, thank you Paul, for sharing this story. Postings like this make cctalk wo= rth every penny, IMO! Regards, Freek. -----Original Message----- Date: Tue, 08 Jul 2025 21:30:36 -0000 From: paul.kimpel(a)digm.com Subject: [cctalk] Burroughs backplane story, was Re: Another 780 backplane story To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Message-ID: <175201023609.1228.2550589532797629102(a)classiccmp.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3D"utf-8" In early 1971, I started working as an on-site software tech on a rather larg= e (for the time), dual-processor Burroughs B6500. It was early days for that = system, and we had a lot of problems with it in the field. We got those irone= d out pretty well and eventually got the system up to an acceptable level of = operation. <<< snip>>> We finally deduced that the problem had been present since the system left th= e factory floor. The original I/O software had been so poor that the system w= as seldom (if ever) able to initiate more than one I/O to disk at a time, but= the new version we had recently installed was really good at initiating mult= iple I/Os. Mux 1 had a lower selection priority than Mux 0, so under the old = software it was seldom selected, and perhaps never so for tag transfer I/Os, = which are relatively rare. The new software allowed the system to get busy en= ough that Mux 1 started to be used a lot more often, and eventually it got bu= sy enough that a paging I/O for that master PCW array got scheduled to Mux 1,= and the system just didn't survive for very long after that. --===============4231852170776504458==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Thu Jul 10 21:23:11 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Lee Felsenstein at VCF West August 1 at 4:30PM Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 17:22:47 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3567324082685936086==" --===============3567324082685936086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Lee Felsenstein at VCF West Friday, August 1 at 4:30PM. He will talk about the 50th Anniversary of The Homebrew Computer Club. Get tickets here: https://connect.computerhistory.org/.../1ffceb98-f556... Info here: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/ Jeff Brace --===============3567324082685936086==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Jul 11 01:54:46 2025 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] IBM System/23 Datamaster 5324 Towers and IBM 5247 HDD Tower Available Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 18:50:45 -0700 Message-ID: <002001dbf206$39007b20$ab017160$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5064539496753143885==" --===============5064539496753143885== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello All, A long time ago I acquired a System/23 desktop unit and eventually a number of the tower units including the HDD tower unit. The plan was to setup a System/23 Muli-User system with multiple terminals connected together. Well, like many great plans real life got in the way and the units have been sitting in storage for a few years. I have accepted that this is one of the projects I will never get to and it is time to pass them on to someone else who can enjoy them. The systems are in SoCal (Upland, CA to be more exact). More info can be found at the following links: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5324-towe r-model-of-the-5322-with-original-clicky-keyboard.1253651/ https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5324-towe r-model-of-the-5322-with-one-floppy-drive.1253652/ https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5322-or-5 324-hdd-tower-model-5247.1253653/ I hate to part/scrap them as the towers rarely show up so I am hoping someone local would be interested in them. Feel free to email me directly or reach out through VCF. Thanks -Ali --===============5064539496753143885==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Fri Jul 11 01:54:52 2025 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] More equipment available in Upland, CA Date: Thu, 10 Jul 2025 18:50:45 -0700 Message-ID: <001f01dbf206$38abcb70$aa036250$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2937821222150214723==" --===============2937821222150214723== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also have the following available for whoever is interested: Sony StorStation AIT Library LIB-162 https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/sony-storstation-ait-library-lib-1 62.1253656/ HP SureStore SC10 https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/hp-surestore-sc10.1253657/ HP Impact Line Printer 2563C (this is one nice printer and if I had the room I would keep it but alas....) https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/hp-impact-line-printer-2563c.12536 54/ -Ali --===============2937821222150214723==-- From useddec@gmail.com Fri Jul 11 06:48:07 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Q-bus, PDP8, VAX items Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 01:47:47 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <850578692.2892276.1750956121467@mail.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4476289984427139405==" --===============4476289984427139405== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Jonathan, I have a 4000-60, but I'm still looking. I should have everything else on your list. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 11:49 AM Jonathan Stone via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hello, > Do you by any chance have Vaxstation 4000 models or motherboards at > hobbyist prices? > Or anything like an inventory of your Qbus boards? > > Other than that, I'm interested in a BA23, disk controllers (RQDX3 or > SCSI), DELQA/DEQNA. > Also a KJD11-B (m7554) and some PMI memory for it, so I can run PDP-11 > diags on Qbus devices. > (The field service uvax II diagnostics on TK50 are unobtainum.) > > thanks in advance > -Jonathan > --===============4476289984427139405==-- From useddec@gmail.com Fri Jul 11 06:57:58 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Vax boxes, parts Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 01:57:41 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9083845113185416630==" --===============9083845113185416630== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I did some digging and found one 3000-400 with no lid( It could be here somewhere) and I'll have to move it to look it over to see what's there. I had 6 or so 3000s and I guess I sold them, but more digging to do. MV3100 M76 MV3100s I can't get to the model number 4000-60 5000-25 5000-125 5000-133 5000-200 I had to pull some boards and made a small list. M7621 M7622 M7624 M7625 M7626 54-21149 KN15 If you need a board I have not listed, please email me off list. If I haven't replied, bug me. I did not list qtys- some items are more than one. Thanks, Paul --===============9083845113185416630==-- From mumpsdev@icloud.com Fri Jul 11 16:50:26 2025 From: Tommy Chang To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: IBM System/23 Datamaster 5324 Towers and IBM 5247 HDD Tower Available Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 09:33:08 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <002001dbf206$39007b20$ab017160$@net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7700013296604750010==" --===============7700013296604750010== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello, The Upland, California location caught my eye! I honestly probably would not= have the time or the skills either (ask my other computers sitting in storag= e) but if you don=E2=80=99t get any other offers I=E2=80=99ll buy it and tran= sfer it from your storage locker to mine=E2=80=A6.=20 Tommy Chang > On Jul 10, 2025, at 7:00=E2=80=AFPM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFHello All, >=20 > A long time ago I acquired a System/23 desktop unit and eventually a number > of the tower units including the HDD tower unit. The plan was to setup a > System/23 Muli-User system with multiple terminals connected together. Well, > like many great plans real life got in the way and the units have been > sitting in storage for a few years. I have accepted that this is one of the > projects I will never get to and it is time to pass them on to someone else > who can enjoy them. The systems are in SoCal (Upland, CA to be more exact). > More info can be found at the following links: >=20 > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5324-towe > r-model-of-the-5322-with-original-clicky-keyboard.1253651/ >=20 > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5324-towe > r-model-of-the-5322-with-one-floppy-drive.1253652/ >=20 > https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?threads/ibm-system-23-datamaster-5322-or-5 > 324-hdd-tower-model-5247.1253653/ >=20 >=20 > I hate to part/scrap them as the towers rarely show up so I am hoping > someone local would be interested in them. Feel free to email me directly or > reach out through VCF. Thanks >=20 >=20 > -Ali >=20 >=20 >=20 --===============7700013296604750010==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Sat Jul 12 04:01:51 2025 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Interact One Message Center Date: Fri, 11 Jul 2025 23:01:34 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8835963699013276066==" --===============8835963699013276066== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hey all, I'm trying to track down a manual or instructions for the Message Center program on the Interact One (from 1978). I've run this in the MAME emulator, and it seems the program has a "partial" BASIC-like interpreter. You can do line numbers, like 10 HELLO 20 WORLD Then issue the command SCROLL, and it will start scrolling text in the numeric sequence they were specified. Then you can also do commands like FLASH, BUZZ, BEEP in its equivalent of "immediate mode" -but I don't know yet how to specify these commands in the numeric program. And in the emulator, I can't yet parse the commands PLOT, SOUND, SIZE - these "message center" program specific commands,not BASIC (BASIC on this system is loaded from tape). Anyway, a manual on a program for the Interact One called "Message Center" is what I'm trying to track down. Thanks, Steve --===============8835963699013276066==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Mon Jul 14 13:48:47 2025 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Comstar System 4 Intel 4004 based Industrial Computer Documentation Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 09:48:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4882162954951839138==" --===============4882162954951839138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was able to obtain a number of documents that pertain to the Comstar System= 4. I spoke about this computer in the past but I have scanned some documentation that should help explain this unique computer People who have been interested in the Intel 4004 might find this interesting The Comstar System 4 Reference Manual is rather detailed on the computer itself and it's applications This is the Complete Comstar System 4 Reference Manual https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-reference-manual_202507 Warner & Swasey Reference Manual https://archive.org/details/warner-swasey-comstar-star-system-reference Comstar System 4 Programming Manual https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-programming-manual Comstar System 4 Tester Manual https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-test-manual Comstar System 4 CPU Module Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-cpumodule Comstar System 4 Serial Communications Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-serial-communications Comstar Star System 4 RAM Module Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-rammodversion Comstar Star System 4 HTL I/O DATA Module Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-iodatamodule Comstar Star System 4 PROM Module Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-prommodule Comstar Star System 4 PROM 1k 2k Module Schematic https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-prom-1k-2k-module Warner & Swasey Comstar System 4 Process Control Language https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-pclref-manual Warner & Swasey Computer Division Comstar System 4 Machine Language / Assembly Language Reference Manual https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-assembly-language Comstar System 4 Program Analyzer Reference Manual https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-reference-manual Computer History Museum's Archive of the Manual https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102686568 Comstar Computer Systems Process Control Language Data Sheet https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-pclcompiler-data-sheet --===============4882162954951839138==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Mon Jul 14 20:47:58 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Video: Introduction to Chiptunes by Inversephase @ VCF East2025 Date: Mon, 14 Jul 2025 16:47:31 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7146531042805785468==" --===============7146531042805785468== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Introduction to Chiptunes by @inversephase video released today (7/14/2025): https://youtu.be/i0v712l2RWE Enjoy! Jeff Brace --===============7146531042805785468==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Tue Jul 15 10:32:35 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Comstar System 4 Intel 4004 based Industrial Computer Documentation Date: Tue, 15 Jul 2025 06:32:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4352212431043246698==" --===============4352212431043246698== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Thanks Christian Bill On Tue, Jul 15, 2025 at 1:05 AM Christian Liendo via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was able to obtain a number of documents that pertain to the Comstar > System 4. > > I spoke about this computer in the past but I have scanned some > documentation that should help explain this unique computer > > People who have been interested in the Intel 4004 might find this > interesting > > The Comstar System 4 Reference Manual is rather detailed on the > computer itself and it's applications > > This is the Complete Comstar System 4 Reference Manual > https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-reference-manual_202507 > > Warner & Swasey Reference Manual > https://archive.org/details/warner-swasey-comstar-star-system-reference > > Comstar System 4 Programming Manual > https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-programming-manual > > Comstar System 4 Tester Manual > https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-test-manual > > Comstar System 4 CPU Module Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-cpumodule > > Comstar System 4 Serial Communications Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-serial-communications > > Comstar Star System 4 RAM Module Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-rammodversion > > Comstar Star System 4 HTL I/O DATA Module Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-iodatamodule > > Comstar Star System 4 PROM Module Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-prommodule > > Comstar Star System 4 PROM 1k 2k Module Schematic > https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-system-4-prom-1k-2k-module > > Warner & Swasey Comstar System 4 Process Control Language > https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-pclref-manual > > Warner & Swasey Computer Division Comstar System 4 Machine Language / > Assembly Language Reference Manual > https://archive.org/details/wscomstar-system-4-assembly-language > > Comstar System 4 Program Analyzer Reference Manual > https://archive.org/details/comstar-system-4-reference-manual > > Computer History Museum's Archive of the Manual > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102686568 > > Comstar Computer Systems Process Control Language Data Sheet > https://archive.org/details/comstar-star-pclcompiler-data-sheet > --===============4352212431043246698==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Wed Jul 16 14:13:42 2025 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 22:13:18 +0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7605935076697391341==" --===============7605935076697391341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard primary and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in series to a 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The transformer's secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. There is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to the input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design for the period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. As I live in Australia I get 240VAC and 50Hz as opposed to the US 115VAC and 60Hz. I can easily convert our 240VAC to 115VAC with a step-down transformer, but cannot easily supply 115VAC at 60Hz. So I was considering using a step-down transformer to get the 115VAC, but modify the resonant "tank circuit" for 50Hz. Unfortunately there is some magic I don't understand. The resonant frequency of a LC circuit with L=2.3H and C=2uF is about 75Hz not the expected 60Hz. Otherwise I could just solve the standard LC resonant circuit formula for C and plug in 50Hz and 2.3H to get the required C. Obviously ferroresonant transformers are more complex than this former software engineer can grasp. Could any experienced EE with relevant transformer knowledge please chime in and help me understand how to redimension the tank circuit to use 50Hz instead of the original 60Hz input. Obviously I could replace the entire power supply with two modern switch mode supplies to create the two rails, but it would be really nice to keep the original supply and just reversibly adapt it for 50Hz. Thanks and best regards Tom --===============7605935076697391341==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Wed Jul 16 14:43:40 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 09:43:33 -0500 Message-ID: <8eeae081-6871-361d-6edf-f5631bbe0d5e@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0123018590978612235==" --===============0123018590978612235== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/16/25 09:13, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply > uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard primary > and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in series to a > 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The transformer's > secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. There > is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as > well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to the > input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design for the > period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. > > As I live in Australia I get 240VAC and 50Hz as opposed to the US 115VAC > and 60Hz. > > I can easily convert our 240VAC to 115VAC with a step-down transformer, but > cannot easily supply 115VAC at 60Hz. So I was considering using a step-down > transformer to get the 115VAC, but modify the resonant "tank circuit" for > 50Hz. > > Unfortunately there is some magic I don't understand. The resonant > frequency of a LC circuit with L=2.3H and C=2uF is about 75Hz not the > expected 60Hz. > > Otherwise I could just solve the standard LC resonant circuit formula for C > and plug in 50Hz and 2.3H to get the required C. > > Obviously ferroresonant transformers are more complex than this former > software engineer can grasp. Could any experienced EE with relevant > transformer knowledge please chime in and help me understand how to > redimension the tank circuit to use 50Hz instead of the original 60Hz input. > > Obviously I could replace the entire power supply with two modern switch > mode supplies to create the two rails, but it would be really nice to keep > the original supply and just reversibly adapt it for 50Hz. That L is probably different when the transformer is excited at full mains voltage and near saturation.  Of course, this seems like it will reduce L and therefore drive the resonance higher! What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger than the 2 uF and power it up.  Then, measure the output voltage, and if it is within range just use it like that.  If you want to get fancy, put it on a Variac and sweep the input voltage.  You will note a reverse slope, as input voltage rises through the range, output voltage will decline. Jon --===============0123018590978612235==-- From ard.p850ug1@gmail.com Wed Jul 16 15:10:30 2025 From: Tony Duell To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 16:10:10 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8eeae081-6871-361d-6edf-f5631bbe0d5e@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7314763134563493025==" --===============7314763134563493025== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 4:00 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger > than the 2 uF and power it up. Remember that the resonant frequency goes as 1/sqrt(L*C). So doesn't that mean you want a capacitor of 1.2^2 times the original value? -tony --===============7314763134563493025==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Wed Jul 16 15:47:43 2025 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 11:42:37 -0400 Message-ID: <848669253.311129.1752680557597@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2305618728211537638==" --===============2305618728211537638== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/16/2025 11:10 AM EDT Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >=20 > =20 > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger > > than the 2 uF and power it up. >=20 > Remember that the resonant frequency goes as 1/sqrt(L*C). So doesn't > that mean you want a capacitor of 1.2^2 times the original value? >=20 > -tony One thing to keep in mind is that the transformer may not be designed to work= at 50 Hz. A "normal" transformer will saturate if the frequency is too low.= A lot of 60Hz equipment won't work (well) on 50 Hz unless the transformer i= s specifically designed for that. However, how that applies to a transformer= that is already intended to saturate I don't know. I do suspect it is still= an issue since it will likely saturate sooner than expected, for some defini= tion of sooner. Will --===============2305618728211537638==-- From bfranchuk@jetnet.ab.ca Wed Jul 16 15:57:25 2025 From: ben To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 09:57:18 -0600 Message-ID: <6411855f-5462-4898-8527-2eacb75641ba@jetnet.ab.ca> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2168405191714146471==" --===============2168405191714146471== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2025-07-16 8:13 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply > uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard primary > and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in series to a > 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The transformer's > secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. There > is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as > well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to the > input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design for the > period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. > A 50 hz to 12? volt DC and 12? volt DC to 60 hz converter might be a better option if you have moving parts, plus you have safe power supply. Have you checked for a UK pdp 8 power supply schematic? Ben. --===============2168405191714146471==-- From jrr@flippers.com Wed Jul 16 18:10:19 2025 From: John Robertson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 11:05:11 -0700 Message-ID: <41a9b0b6-bd8d-4c94-88f3-2b53b42b7234@flippers.com> In-Reply-To: <6411855f-5462-4898-8527-2eacb75641ba@jetnet.ab.ca> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5600687826364924757==" --===============5600687826364924757== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 2025-07-16 8:57 a.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > On 2025-07-16 8:13 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply >> uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard >> primary >> and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in >> series to a >> 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The >> transformer's >> secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. >> There >> is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as >> well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to >> the >> input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design >> for the >> period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. >> > A 50 hz to 12? volt DC and 12? volt DC to 60 hz converter might be a > better option if you have moving parts, plus you have safe power supply. > Have you checked for a UK pdp 8 power supply schematic? > Ben. > Exactly what I do to change motor speeds on my jukeboxes - convert the line to 12VDC, then use an Inverter for automobiles, etc, that puts out 120 @ 60 Hz at the current required. I then modify the converter output frequency if I want to speed up or slow down the synchronous motor speed... John :-#)# -- John's Jukes Ltd. 7 - 3979 Marine Way, Burnaby, BC, Canada V5J 5E3 Call (604)872-5757 (Pinballs, Jukes, Video Games) flippers.com "Old pinballers never die, they just flip out" --===============5600687826364924757==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Wed Jul 16 18:45:34 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 14:45:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <848669253.311129.1752680557597@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2631835801568495711==" --===============2631835801568495711== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 16, 2025, at 11:42=E2=80=AFAM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On 07/16/2025 11:10 AM EDT Tony Duell via cctalk = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >> On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk >> wrote: >>>=20 >>> What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger >>> than the 2 uF and power it up. >>=20 >> Remember that the resonant frequency goes as 1/sqrt(L*C). So doesn't >> that mean you want a capacitor of 1.2^2 times the original value? >>=20 >> -tony >=20 > One thing to keep in mind is that the transformer may not be designed to wo= rk at 50 Hz. A "normal" transformer will saturate if the frequency is too lo= w. A lot of 60Hz equipment won't work (well) on 50 Hz unless the transformer= is specifically designed for that. However, how that applies to a transform= er that is already intended to saturate I don't know. I do suspect it is sti= ll an issue since it will likely saturate sooner than expected, for some defi= nition of sooner. >=20 > Will That's true but the frequency difference is modest, so chances are it will be= ok unless the design is really marginal. It would be a different matter if = you were dealing with a transformer designed for 400 Hz power. paul --===============2631835801568495711==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Wed Jul 16 19:42:40 2025 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 12:42:26 -0700 Message-ID: <22855bdd43517add38036278c4e1e8cf399cd257.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <848669253.311129.1752680557597@email.ionos.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5471267293825414338==" --===============5471267293825414338== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On Wed, 2025-07-16 at 11:42 -0400, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 07/16/2025 11:10 AM EDT Tony Duell via cctalk > > wrote: > > > >   > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 4:00 PM Jon Elson via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger > > > than the 2 uF and power it up. > > > > Remember that the resonant frequency goes as 1/sqrt(L*C). So > > doesn't > > that mean you want a capacitor of 1.2^2 times the original value? > > > > -tony > > One thing to keep in mind is that the transformer may not be designed > to work at 50 Hz.  A "normal" transformer will saturate if the > frequency is too low.  A lot of 60Hz equipment won't work (well) on > 50 Hz unless the transformer is specifically designed for that.  > However, how that applies to a transformer that is already intended > to saturate I don't know.  I do suspect it is still an issue since it > will likely saturate sooner than expected, for some definition of > sooner. The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401 computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They bought a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it wouldn't work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card punch, printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong speed using 60 Hz power. At first they had an antique and unreliable motor-generator. Now they have a switching supply that IBM provided (maybe donated). > > Will --===============5471267293825414338==-- From useddec@gmail.com Wed Jul 16 20:17:10 2025 From: Paul Anderson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 15:16:52 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22855bdd43517add38036278c4e1e8cf399cd257.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5075202284254465930==" --===============5075202284254465930== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking along the lines of Ben's and John's comment, but using a 12v PS, a battery, and a 50 HZ UPS/ BBU. Old school, low tech, but it works Paul On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 2:50=E2=80=AFPM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2025-07-16 at 11:42 -0400, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > > On 07/16/2025 11:10 AM EDT Tony Duell via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 4:00=E2=80=AFPM Jon Elson via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger > > > > than the 2 uF and power it up. > > > > > > Remember that the resonant frequency goes as 1/sqrt(L*C). So > > > doesn't > > > that mean you want a capacitor of 1.2^2 times the original value? > > > > > > -tony > > > > One thing to keep in mind is that the transformer may not be designed > > to work at 50 Hz. A "normal" transformer will saturate if the > > frequency is too low. A lot of 60Hz equipment won't work (well) on > > 50 Hz unless the transformer is specifically designed for that. > > However, how that applies to a transformer that is already intended > > to saturate I don't know. I do suspect it is still an issue since it > > will likely saturate sooner than expected, for some definition of > > sooner. > > The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401 > computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They bought > a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it wouldn't > work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card punch, > printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong speed using > 60 Hz power. > > At first they had an antique and unreliable motor-generator. Now they > have a switching supply that IBM provided (maybe donated). > > > > > Will > > --===============5075202284254465930==-- From brendan@mcneill.co.nz Wed Jul 16 21:06:46 2025 From: Brendan McNeill To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 21:06:35 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <8eeae081-6871-361d-6edf-f5631bbe0d5e@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4389028622853459266==" --===============4389028622853459266== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Jon I restored a PDP-8 straight 8 that had a similar PSU. I am here in New Zeala= nd with 230v 50Hz. I used a step down transformer 230v -> 110v but of course= retained the 50hz. It worked just fine. I did replace the capacitor in q= uestion however. They contain PCB=E2=80=99s so use gloves and dispose with c= are. Kind regards Brendan --------------//---------------- brendan(a)mcneill.co.nz +64 21 881 883 From: Jon Elson via cctalk Date: Thursday, 17 July 2025 at 02:50 To: Tom Hunter via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery On 7/16/25 09:13, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply > uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard primary > and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in series to a > 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The transformer's > secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. There > is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as > well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to the > input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design for the > period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. > > As I live in Australia I get 240VAC and 50Hz as opposed to the US 115VAC > and 60Hz. > > I can easily convert our 240VAC to 115VAC with a step-down transformer, but > cannot easily supply 115VAC at 60Hz. So I was considering using a step-down > transformer to get the 115VAC, but modify the resonant "tank circuit" for > 50Hz. > > Unfortunately there is some magic I don't understand. The resonant > frequency of a LC circuit with L=3D2.3H and C=3D2uF is about 75Hz not the > expected 60Hz. > > Otherwise I could just solve the standard LC resonant circuit formula for C > and plug in 50Hz and 2.3H to get the required C. > > Obviously ferroresonant transformers are more complex than this former > software engineer can grasp. Could any experienced EE with relevant > transformer knowledge please chime in and help me understand how to > redimension the tank circuit to use 50Hz instead of the original 60Hz input. > > Obviously I could replace the entire power supply with two modern switch > mode supplies to create the two rails, but it would be really nice to keep > the original supply and just reversibly adapt it for 50Hz. That L is probably different when the transformer is excited at full mains voltage and near saturation. Of course, this seems like it will reduce L and therefore drive the resonance higher! What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger than the 2 uF and power it up. Then, measure the output voltage, and if it is within range just use it like that. If you want to get fancy, put it on a Variac and sweep the input voltage. You will note a reverse slope, as input voltage rises through the range, output voltage will decline. Jon --===============4389028622853459266==-- From chrise@pobox.com Wed Jul 16 22:16:17 2025 From: Chris Elmquist To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Wed, 16 Jul 2025 17:09:53 -0500 Message-ID: <20250716220953.GB2237@n0jcf.net> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CSEZPR06MB56929FEB7F0E81CB8F2EB9CBFA56A=40SEZPR06MB?= =?utf-8?q?5692=2Eapcprd06=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5399429558945508527==" --===============5399429558945508527== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I found this, https://www.solidstatecontrolsinc.com/-/media/ameteksolidstatecontrols/docume= ntation/white-papers/ferroresonant-transformers-white-paper.pdf which says in section 1.8 on page 8, 1.8 FREQUENCY SENSITIVITY Referring to Figure 1.3, we see that the slope of the straight line varies inversely with the square of the input frequency. As the frequency increases, the slope of the straight line decreases and point C moves up to a higher value of flux density. The output voltage of the regulator is, therefore, sensitive to frequency variations, the relation being a 1.4% change in output voltage for a 1% change in input frequency Chris On Wednesday (07/16/2025 at 09:06PM +0000), Brendan McNeill via cctalk wrote: > Hi Jon >=20 > I restored a PDP-8 straight 8 that had a similar PSU. I am here in New Zea= land with 230v 50Hz. I used a step down transformer 230v -> 110v but of cour= se retained the 50hz. It worked just fine. I did replace the capacitor in= question however. They contain PCB=E2=80=99s so use gloves and dispose with= care. >=20 > Kind regards > Brendan >=20 >=20 > --------------//---------------- > brendan(a)mcneill.co.nz > +64 21 881 883 >=20 >=20 >=20 > From: Jon Elson via cctalk > Date: Thursday, 17 July 2025 at 02:50 > To: Tom Hunter via cctalk > Cc: Jon Elson > Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery >=20 > On 7/16/25 09:13, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > Recently I got a nice and complete PDP-8/s from the US. The power supply > > uses a ferroresonant transformer which in addition to the standard primary > > and secondary windings has a separate 2.3H winding connected in series to= a > > 2uF 660VAC capacitor forming a resonant "tank" circuit. The transformer's > > secondary side and the resonant circuit are operated in saturation. There > > is a magnetic shunt to prevent the primary side going into saturation as > > well. It accepts a wide input voltage range, but is very sensitive to the > > input frequency of 60Hz. This is quite a nice if not elegant design for t= he > > period in question, but maybe not the most efficient. > > > > As I live in Australia I get 240VAC and 50Hz as opposed to the US 115VAC > > and 60Hz. > > > > I can easily convert our 240VAC to 115VAC with a step-down transformer, b= ut > > cannot easily supply 115VAC at 60Hz. So I was considering using a step-do= wn > > transformer to get the 115VAC, but modify the resonant "tank circuit" for > > 50Hz. > > > > Unfortunately there is some magic I don't understand. The resonant > > frequency of a LC circuit with L=3D2.3H and C=3D2uF is about 75Hz not the > > expected 60Hz. > > > > Otherwise I could just solve the standard LC resonant circuit formula for= C > > and plug in 50Hz and 2.3H to get the required C. > > > > Obviously ferroresonant transformers are more complex than this former > > software engineer can grasp. Could any experienced EE with relevant > > transformer knowledge please chime in and help me understand how to > > redimension the tank circuit to use 50Hz instead of the original 60Hz inp= ut. > > > > Obviously I could replace the entire power supply with two modern switch > > mode supplies to create the two rails, but it would be really nice to keep > > the original supply and just reversibly adapt it for 50Hz. >=20 > That L is probably different when the transformer is excited > at full mains voltage and near saturation. Of course, this > seems like it will reduce L and therefore drive the > resonance higher! >=20 > What I might do is make up a cap bank that is 1.2 X larger > than the 2 uF and power it up. Then, measure the output > voltage, and if it is within range just use it like that. > If you want to get fancy, put it on a Variac and sweep the > input voltage. You will note a reverse slope, as input > voltage rises through the range, output voltage will decline. >=20 > Jon --=20 Chris Elmquist --===============5399429558945508527==-- From lukeparkerson1@gmail.com Thu Jul 17 13:20:35 2025 From: lukeparkerson1@gmail.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 13:20:31 +0000 Message-ID: <175275843119.1228.12717672078159550777@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3509717564958919140==" --===============3509717564958919140== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi all, I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated 1986, whic= h has some old survey data stored on it from a university research project se= veral decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to extract the information from the = tape and convert it to a more modern data file accessible to the public, but = I don't know very much about these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipment. I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can tell me= it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is there's anyone = here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone with a working 9-track ta= pe drive? The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine. Here's a = photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp=3D= sharing Thanks, Luke --===============3509717564958919140==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 17 13:45:29 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 09:45:13 -0400 Message-ID: <60B4F561-8AE9-47C6-9710-5031DE098320@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <22855bdd43517add38036278c4e1e8cf399cd257.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4678015544933935100==" --===============4678015544933935100== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 16, 2025, at 3:42=E2=80=AFPM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >=20 >> ... >=20 > The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401 > computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They bought > a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it wouldn't > work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card punch, > printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong speed using > 60 Hz power. I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a quest= ion of fact, not belief. As for the motors, that's an obvious issue (if they are induction motors rath= er than universal motors). The modern solution is a VFC -- variable frequenc= y motor controller. Those are pretty cheap and work great with motors. I've= heard that they are not so good with power supply transformers, not sure if = that has been experimentally confirmed. For power supply transformers, 50 vs= . 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. People with CDC mainframes that want 400 Hz p= ower do need a solution, with motor-generators as the traditional answer. I = wonder if a VFC would work for that, perhaps with post-VFC filtering to turn = the waveform into something closer to a sine wave. paul --===============4678015544933935100==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Jul 17 13:50:27 2025 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 13:50:20 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <175275843119.1228.12717672078159550777@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3688732895168281416==" --===============3688732895168281416== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Location ? It could well be possible - I have had 30+ yo tapes read B -----Original Message----- From: Luke Parkerson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 17 July 2025 13:21 To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org Cc: lukeparkerson1(a)gmail.com Subject: [cctalk] 9-Track Tape Extraction Hi all, I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated 1986, whic= h has some old survey data stored on it from a university research project se= veral decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to extract the information from the = tape and convert it to a more modern data file accessible to the public, but = I don't know very much about these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipment. I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can tell me= it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is there's anyone = here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone with a working 9-track ta= pe drive? The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine. Here's a = photo: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp=3D= sharing Thanks, Luke --===============3688732895168281416==-- From lukeparkerson1@gmail.com Thu Jul 17 14:29:59 2025 From: Luke Parkerson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:29:56 +0000 Message-ID: <175276259614.1228.12884496687772474768@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6258548655938940489==" --===============6258548655938940489== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Glad to hear it, thanks. I'm based in the North East of the US. If you or anyone closer by has a tape = drive, I can look into some options to get it to you. Luke --===============6258548655938940489==-- From jon@jonworld.com Thu Jul 17 14:37:15 2025 From: Jonathan Katz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:36:58 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <175276259614.1228.12884496687772474768@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0254495567535430774==" --===============0254495567535430774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is something Dave McGuire could assist with at the LSSM, too, I wager. On Thu, Jul 17, 2025 at 3:35=E2=80=AFPM Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: > > Glad to hear it, thanks. > > I'm based in the North East of the US. If you or anyone closer by has a tap= e drive, I can look into some options to get it to you. > > Luke --=20 -Jon +44 7792 149029 --===============0254495567535430774==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 17 14:37:32 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 09:37:23 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <175275843119.1228.12717672078159550777@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2271431341865700800==" --===============2271431341865700800== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/25 08:20, Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated 1986, wh= ich has some old survey data stored on it from a university research project = several decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to extract the information from th= e tape and convert it to a more modern data file accessible to the public, bu= t I don't know very much about these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipme= nt. > > I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can tell = me it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is there's anyon= e here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone with a working 9-track = tape drive? > > The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine. Here's = a photo: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp= =3Dsharing Do you know for sure if it is even 9-track?=C2=A0 Back in the=20 day, there were 7-track tapes, also. What computer system was it recorded on? I gave away my 9-track drives some years ago, but there are=20 some people on here who make this service available. Jon --===============2271431341865700800==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 17 14:42:03 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 09:41:55 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <60B4F561-8AE9-47C6-9710-5031DE098320@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0993160449539922442==" --===============0993160449539922442== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/25 08:45, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2025, at 3:42=E2=80=AFPM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401 >> computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They bought >> a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it wouldn't >> work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card punch, >> printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong speed using >> 60 Hz power. > I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a que= stion of fact, not belief. > > As for the motors, that's an obvious issue (if they are induction motors ra= ther than universal motors). The modern solution is a VFC -- variable freque= ncy motor controller. Those are pretty cheap and work great with motors. I'= ve heard that they are not so good with power supply transformers, not sure i= f that has been experimentally confirmed. For power supply transformers, 50 = vs. 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. People with CDC mainframes that want 400 Hz= power do need a solution, with motor-generators as the traditional answer. = I wonder if a VFC would work for that, perhaps with post-VFC filtering to tur= n the waveform into something closer to a sine wave. > > =09 VFDs (variable frequency drives) produce ~340 V PWM "square"=20 waves,=C2=A0 Given enough inductance in the motor windings, this=20 causes roughly sinusoidal currents.=C2=A0 But, feed this into a=20 transformer, and you will get high frequency spikes.=C2=A0 Now,=20 MAYBE, due to the way a "Sola" transformer works, it might=20 smooth out the square waves, but it is real hard to predict=20 what will happen.=C2=A0 Also, VFDs are usually designed for=20 balanced 3-phase loads. Jon --===============0993160449539922442==-- From mjd.bishop@emeritus-solutions.com Thu Jul 17 15:38:01 2025 From: Martin Bishop To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:37:54 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3422661891011281113==" --===============3422661891011281113== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable https://kikusuiamerica.com/products-index/ac/pcr-ma/ will oblige I have a PCR500MA : good for 400 Hz synchro work, also 40/50/60 Hz induction = motors - IIRC the wfm is much cleaner than the usu 12V -> ~ static inverter. = The pricing reflects this. 3 phase (Op) VFD are wonderful for driving 3 phase machine tool motors, and c= an go slowly ie low frequency; eg https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/inverter-dri= ves/7858522=20 I have a 1 phase (Op) VFD on the shelf, boat anchor, cf PCR500 - wfm is ugly HtH B -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson via cctalk [mailto:cctalk(a)classiccmp.org]=20 Sent: 17 July 2025 14:42 To: Paul Koning via cctalk Cc: Jon Elson Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery On 7/17/25 08:45, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 16, 2025, at 3:42=E2=80=AFPM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401=20 >> computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They=20 >> bought a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it=20 >> wouldn't work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card=20 >> punch, printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong=20 >> speed using >> 60 Hz power. > I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a que= stion of fact, not belief. > > As for the motors, that's an obvious issue (if they are induction motors ra= ther than universal motors). The modern solution is a VFC -- variable freque= ncy motor controller. Those are pretty cheap and work great with motors. I'= ve heard that they are not so good with power supply transformers, not sure i= f that has been experimentally confirmed. For power supply transformers, 50 = vs. 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. People with CDC mainframes that want 400 Hz= power do need a solution, with motor-generators as the traditional answer. = I wonder if a VFC would work for that, perhaps with post-VFC filtering to tur= n the waveform into something closer to a sine wave. > > =09 VFDs (variable frequency drives) produce ~340 V PWM "square"=20 waves,=C2=A0 Given enough inductance in the motor windings, this causes rough= ly sinusoidal currents.=C2=A0 But, feed this into a transformer, and you will= get high frequency spikes.=C2=A0 Now, MAYBE, due to the way a "Sola" transfo= rmer works, it might smooth out the square waves, but it is real hard to pred= ict what will happen.=C2=A0 Also, VFDs are usually designed for balanced 3-ph= ase loads. Jon --===============3422661891011281113==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 17 16:01:20 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:01:03 -0400 Message-ID: <4EC9427F-51EE-4B6B-B117-CB21565CA15D@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2500423465064477897==" --===============2500423465064477897== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2025, at 10:41=E2=80=AFAM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >=20 > On 7/17/25 08:45, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>=20 >>> On Jul 16, 2025, at 3:42=E2=80=AFPM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: >>>=20 >>>> ... >>> The Computer History Museum in Sunnyvale, CA has a working IBM 1401 >>> computer from Germany. It has ferroresonant power supplies. They bought >>> a converter to supply 50 Hz power because they were certain it wouldn't >>> work at 60 Hz. And it has motors in the card reader, card punch, >>> printer, and tape drives, that would all run at the wrong speed using >>> 60 Hz power. >> I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a qu= estion of fact, not belief. >>=20 >> As for the motors, that's an obvious issue (if they are induction motors r= ather than universal motors). The modern solution is a VFC -- variable frequ= ency motor controller. Those are pretty cheap and work great with motors. I= 've heard that they are not so good with power supply transformers, not sure = if that has been experimentally confirmed. For power supply transformers, 50= vs. 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. People with CDC mainframes that want 400 H= z power do need a solution, with motor-generators as the traditional answer. = I wonder if a VFC would work for that, perhaps with post-VFC filtering to tu= rn the waveform into something closer to a sine wave. >>=20 >>=20 >=20 > VFDs (variable frequency drives) produce ~340 V PWM "square" waves, Given = enough inductance in the motor windings, this causes roughly sinusoidal curre= nts. But, feed this into a transformer, and you will get high frequency spik= es. Now, MAYBE, due to the way a "Sola" transformer works, it might smooth o= ut the square waves, but it is real hard to predict what will happen. Also, = VFDs are usually designed for balanced 3-phase loads. Yes, the question is whether the transformer could be made sufficiently happy= . As for 3-phase: the CDC mainframes (6000 series) in fact use 3 phase 400 H= z power feeding their power supplies -- you're dealing with 3-phase transform= ers and 6-diode rectifiers behind them. paul --===============2500423465064477897==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 17 16:45:25 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 11:45:16 -0500 Message-ID: <27d01d1d-0047-7b9f-03ee-3c89ce24ec48@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4950740945253714276==" --===============4950740945253714276== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/17/25 09:36, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > This is something Dave McGuire could assist with at the LSSM, too, I wager. > Yup, I donated two CDC keystone drives to the LSSM, but they are 1600/6250 only.  I did donate a Pertec 800/1600 drive to them, but I don't know if they have a controller/formatter for that. Jon --===============4950740945253714276==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Thu Jul 17 16:48:48 2025 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:48:39 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8629000604595160658==" --===============8629000604595160658== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 7/17/2025 10:36 AM, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > This is something Dave McGuire could assist with at the LSSM, too, I wager. Even I still have a 9-track tape. Doesn't everybody? :-) Mine is SCSI so I can use it on any of a number of different systems although I have to admit I haven't run it in years. bill --===============8629000604595160658==-- From ce.murillosanchez@gmail.com Thu Jul 17 16:55:42 2025 From: Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 11:55:33 -0500 Message-ID: <5571f153-dae6-3c30-5eb3-c03a205c2c78@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <60B4F561-8AE9-47C6-9710-5031DE098320@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0190808317068634770==" --===============0190808317068634770== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a qu= estion of fact, not belief. -snip- > For power supply transformers, 50 vs. 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. Peopl= e with CDC mainframes that want 400 Hz power do need a solution, with motor-g= enerators as the traditional answer. I wonder if a VFC would work for that, = perhaps with post-VFC filtering to turn the waveform into something closer to= a sine wave. > > paul Operating a 60Hz transformer at 50Hz will require a higher magnetizing=20 current (and flux density) in order to maintain the same operating=20 voltage.=C2=A0 This is very likely to send the transformer into a B vs H=20 region with reduced permeability, thus creating a much more distorted=20 magnetizing current waveform with sizable peaks.=C2=A0 This will in turn=20 increase primary copper losses, and overheating can happen easily,=20 depending on the transformer specifics.=C2=A0 For power distribution and=20 transmission transformers, this is definitely a no-no.=C2=A0 There is a=20 reason that 50Hz utility transformers have roughly 20% more iron and=20 copper in them than 60Hz ones. Carlos. --===============0190808317068634770==-- From jfoust@threedee.com Thu Jul 17 17:29:21 2025 From: John Foust To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Lee Felsenstein at VCF West August 1 at 4:30PM Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:28:43 -0500 Message-ID: <20250717172916.6B8648822B@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7718037679141774216==" --===============7718037679141774216== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 04:22 PM 7/10/2025, you wrote: >Lee Felsenstein at VCF West Friday, August 1 at 4:30PM. >He will talk about the 50th Anniversary of The Homebrew Computer Club. Here's the line-up: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/vcf-west-speakers/vcf= -west-speakers-detailed/#Outside_In Not just Lee... but also Bob Marsh of Processor Tech, and Harry Garland of C= romenco,=20 and Dan Sokol of Apple... And then for the Amiga 40th events, Dale, RJ, Trevor, Perry, Willie, Marco,=20 Bill, Aaron, Brad, and me, too!=20 And Sellam is there! - John --===============7718037679141774216==-- From cube1@charter.net Thu Jul 17 17:55:12 2025 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 12:47:49 -0500 Message-ID: <5a5383e8-bbb6-4d6a-867f-8c9625150a26@charter.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8438051187212860511==" --===============8438051187212860511== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/2025 9:37 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/17/25 08:20, Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated=20 >> 1986, which has some old survey data stored on it from a university=20 >> research project several decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to=20 >> extract the information from the tape and convert it to a more modern=20 >> data file accessible to the public, but I don't know very much about=20 >> these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipment. >> >> I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can=20 >> tell me it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is=20 >> there's anyone here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone=20 >> with a working 9-track tape drive? >> >> The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine.=20 >> Here's a photo: >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp= =3Dsharing=20 >> > > Do you know for sure if it is even 9-track?=C2=A0 Back in the day, there=20 > were 7-track tapes, also. > > What computer system was it recorded on? > > I gave away my 9-track drives some years ago, but there are some=20 > people on here who make this service available. > > Jon > Given the date of 1986 it is very likely 9 track.=C2=A0 Very unlikely to be 7= =20 track that late. I can read 9 track at 1600 or 6250 BPI and I *think* 800 BPI 9 track as=20 well.=C2=A0 (Would want verify that before the o.p. sent me a tape). I also have a rudimentary tape baking setup. Located in Madison, WI JRJ --===============8438051187212860511==-- From van.snyder@sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 17 18:11:52 2025 From: Van Snyder To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 11:11:44 -0700 Message-ID: <016f27cf144763812ccd522bc5046d19a23a9a53.camel@sbcglobal.net> In-Reply-To: <175275843119.1228.12717672078159550777@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8422497154969870774==" --===============8422497154969870774== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2025-07-17 at 13:20 +0000, Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, >=20 > I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated > 1986, which has some old survey data stored on it from a university > research project several decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to > extract the information from the tape and convert it to a more modern > data file accessible to the public, but I don't know very much about > these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipment. >=20 > I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can > tell me it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is > there's anyone here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone > with a working 9-track tape drive? >=20 > The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine. > Here's a photo: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp= =3Dsharing >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > Luke Paul Pierce had 9-track and 7-track tape drives and software to extract data and cope with errors. I don't know whether he still has the equipment, but if he doesn't he probably knows who can do it. --===============8422497154969870774==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Thu Jul 17 18:56:14 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:55:53 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <5571f153-dae6-3c30-5eb3-c03a205c2c78@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1491187047096895955==" --===============1491187047096895955== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 17, 2025, at 12:55=E2=80=AFPM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk <= cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >=20 > Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> I wonder about "they were certain it would not work". That should be a q= uestion of fact, not belief. > -snip- >> For power supply transformers, 50 vs. 60 Hz is unlikely to matter. Peopl= e with CDC mainframes that want 400 Hz power do need a solution, with motor-g= enerators as the traditional answer. I wonder if a VFC would work for that, = perhaps with post-VFC filtering to turn the waveform into something closer to= a sine wave. >>=20 >> paul > Operating a 60Hz transformer at 50Hz will require a higher magnetizing curr= ent (and flux density) in order to maintain the same operating voltage. This= is very likely to send the transformer into a B vs H region with reduced per= meability, thus creating a much more distorted magnetizing current waveform w= ith sizable peaks. This will in turn increase primary copper losses, and ove= rheating can happen easily, depending on the transformer specifics. For powe= r distribution and transmission transformers, this is definitely a no-no. Th= ere is a reason that 50Hz utility transformers have roughly 20% more iron and= copper in them than 60Hz ones. Yes, I can see that for utility transformers, which are carefully optimized f= or the task. But I would think that power supply transformers are likely to = have larger margins so they aren't operated so close to the limits. paul --===============1491187047096895955==-- From emu@e-bbes.com Thu Jul 17 19:11:05 2025 From: emanuel stiebler To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:03:43 -0400 Message-ID: <713a2a6f-a46e-4549-b2bc-3a4aae33bd1d@e-bbes.com> In-Reply-To: <175276259614.1228.12884496687772474768@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2192713218457126656==" --===============2192713218457126656== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025-07-17 10:29, Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: > Glad to hear it, thanks. >=20 > I'm based in the North East of the US. If you or anyone closer by has a tap= e drive, I can look into some options to get it to you. I am in Maine, doesn't go much further north/east :) How was the tape stored? --===============2192713218457126656==-- From paul.kimpel@digm.com Thu Jul 17 19:17:59 2025 From: paul.kimpel@digm.com To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 19:17:52 +0000 Message-ID: <175277987256.1228.17290450206776814415@classiccmp.org> In-Reply-To: <175275843119.1228.12717672078159550777@classiccmp.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2055742435595064020==" --===============2055742435595064020== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable If none of the other suggestions here work out, you could try contacting Denn= is Boone at Michigan State . --===============2055742435595064020==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Jul 17 19:30:39 2025 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:30:33 -0400 Message-ID: <1556307245.458240.1752780633873@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3665080295722319464==" --===============3665080295722319464== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable >=20 > Yes, I can see that for utility transformers, which are carefully optimized= for the task. But I would think that power supply transformers are likely t= o have larger margins so they aren't operated so close to the limits. >=20 > paul Here is a list of current production models of power transformers. Notice it= has separate models for 50/60 Hz and 60 Hz. Many years ago, I bought an Epson PX-8 just prior to moving to Germany from t= he US. Using a 220-110 transformer, it would take about 2 days to charge the= battery, more than twice as long as in the US. But the wall-wart transforme= r got very warm, much warmer than in the US. Upon returning to the US with o= ur 60 Hz power, all was well. The battery charged fully in less than a day a= nd the transformer only got slightly warm. Just a data point. Will --===============3665080295722319464==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Thu Jul 17 19:31:35 2025 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Ferroresonant transformer mystery Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 15:31:30 -0400 Message-ID: <1053727695.458397.1752780690054@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8369946169158730068==" --===============8369946169158730068== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Well, I suppose I should add the link to the data I mentioned. https://www.hammfg.com/electronics/transformers/power/166 --===============8369946169158730068==-- From cube1@charter.net Thu Jul 17 19:42:58 2025 From: Jay Jaeger To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: 9-Track Tape Extraction Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 14:42:51 -0500 Message-ID: <76e123f9-d523-445b-8802-3daef703e972@charter.net> In-Reply-To: <016f27cf144763812ccd522bc5046d19a23a9a53.camel@sbcglobal.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0568613009815266788==" --===============0568613009815266788== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/17/2025 1:11 PM, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 2025-07-17 at 13:20 +0000, Luke Parkerson via cctalk wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I recently got my hands on what I believe is a 9-track tape, dated >> 1986, which has some old survey data stored on it from a university >> research project several decades ago. I'm hoping to be able to >> extract the information from the tape and convert it to a more modern >> data file accessible to the public, but I don't know very much about >> these tapes nor do I have 9-track tape equipment. >> >> I'm wondering if anyone who is more familiar with this technology can >> tell me it's even still possible to extract this data, and if so, is >> there's anyone here who can try and run the tape, or knows someone >> with a working 9-track tape drive? >> >> The frame is not in the best shape, but the tape is hopefully fine. >> Here's a photo: >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/1PrdBnIWUO4-317ZSwqvY-TD6dHr2CxC8/view?usp= =3Dsharing >> >> Thanks, >> >> Luke > Paul Pierce had 9-track and 7-track tape drives and > software to extract data and cope with errors. I don't know whether he > still has the equipment, but if he doesn't he probably knows who can do > it. > No, Paul donated that equipment to another organization: The System=20 Source Computer Museum in Maryland https://museum.syssrc.com/ Paul indicated to me that "Almost all of the [ed: his] remaining=20 computer stuff is there now". JRJ --===============0568613009815266788==-- From mark.kahrs@gmail.com Thu Jul 17 21:13:07 2025 From: Mark Kahrs To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] RK06/7 manual? Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 17:12:49 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6677390434013548220==" --===============6677390434013548220== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit LSSM is looking for a copy of the RK06/07 Technical Description Manual, EK-RK067-TD-001. If anyone can give or loan it to us, we can scan it as well for public distribution. Thanks. --===============6677390434013548220==-- From pontus@dfupdate.se Thu Jul 17 21:21:53 2025 From: pontus To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Selling a Wang calculator Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 23:21:43 +0200 Message-ID: <2d7d198a8a4ec3c5f3b632d59349ba28@dfupdate.se> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6367867204430775404==" --===============6367867204430775404== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi I know this isn't exactly the right group for this. But I have a fairly=20 uncommon Wang calculator for sale and am not sure where to post about=20 it. I've tried "Vintage Calculators Buy & Sell" on facebook without much=20 luck. I see there is some calculator activity on discord, so I'll post=20 about it there but I'd be happy for suggestion of other venues before I=20 go the E-bay route. Below is the blurb I posted on facebook and here is a link to photos of=20 the thing: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1gNdVSsNDxDL1Ukjh13-2ElJXRiWKQ5rx?usp= =3Dsharing FOR SALE: a Wang 362E electronic calculator in good condition, some=20 scuff marks and light scratches but the inside is clean and looks to be=20 complete. It comes with the 370K programming keyboard with nixie tube=20 display in original dust cover, two card readers model 371 (with feet),=20 four manuals in English and one in Swedish with handwritten notes. Also=20 included is an IBM port-a-punch in box. I have decided not to test it in order to avoid causing any damage from=20 improper handling or due to problems with ageing hardware. Located in Uppsala, Sweden. I will ship internationally but please allow=20 some time for me to package it properly and figure out the best shipping=20 options. I have shipped heavy computers and even CRTs with success, so=20 I=E2=80=99m not without experience. Give me an offer :) --===============6367867204430775404==-- From a.carlini@ntlworld.com Thu Jul 17 23:38:54 2025 From: Antonio Carlini To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: RK06/7 manual? Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 00:38:45 +0100 Message-ID: <83098724-5cb5-4a39-9944-31f28b5adc29@ntlworld.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4672489903575815559==" --===============4672489903575815559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 17/07/2025 22:12, Mark Kahrs via cctalk wrote: > LSSM is looking for a copy of the RK06/07 Technical Description Manual, > EK-RK067-TD-001. > If anyone can give or loan it to us, we can scan it as well for public > distribution. I might have a paper copy but vaxbarn seems to have it scanned and online: https://www.vaxbarn.com/downloads/pub/pdf/dec/disc/rk/EK-RK067-TD-001%20RK06%= 20RK07%20Disk%20Drive%20Technical%20Description%20Manual%20-%201978-03.pdf Antonio --=20 Antonio Carlini antonio(a)acarlini.com --===============4672489903575815559==-- From lewissa78@gmail.com Fri Jul 18 03:40:49 2025 From: Steve Lewis To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Endeco Cartridge Reader Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 22:40:23 -0500 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2806113801073668174==" --===============2806113801073668174== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Is anyone familiar with the Type 1138SSM Cartridge Reader by Endeco, Inc (of Marion, MA) ? I recently got one, it appears to have an RS-232 interface at the back (and a power cable). I believe it is from around 1989. The cartridge slot has a connector that looks like something an NES might have. That is, it is not a tape, but it is much larger than CompactFlash. If anyone is familiar with these, I'm trying to find some cartridges and any kind of manual on how to interface with the thing. Thanks! Steve --===============2806113801073668174==-- From artgodwin@gmail.com Fri Jul 18 11:19:08 2025 From: Adrian Godwin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Endeco Cartridge Reader Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 12:18:51 +0100 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6364775342615876116==" --===============6364775342615876116== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Guessing that's the one recently sold on ebay. It (or another one) has some decent pictures if you look whilst they're still on line. https://www.ebay.com/itm/233207271437 On Fri, Jul 18, 2025 at 11:15 AM Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: > > Is anyone familiar with the Type 1138SSM Cartridge Reader by Endeco, Inc > (of Marion, MA) ? > > I recently got one, it appears to have an RS-232 interface at the back (and > a power cable). I believe it is from around 1989. > > The cartridge slot has a connector that looks like something an NES might > have. That is, it is not a tape, but it is much larger than CompactFlash. > > If anyone is familiar with these, I'm trying to find some cartridges and > any kind of manual on how to interface with the thing. > > Thanks! > Steve --===============6364775342615876116==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Fri Jul 18 22:55:08 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF West 2025 Consignment, Aug 1 & 2, Mountain View, CA Date: Fri, 18 Jul 2025 18:54:44 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4688740723720184242==" --===============4688740723720184242== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Get your items into the system! Print your labels ahead of time! Buy and sell treasures. More info here: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/vcf-west-consignment/ Jeff Brace --===============4688740723720184242==-- From julf@julf.com Sun Jul 20 11:55:20 2025 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Compaq 9.1GB Ultra3 SCSI disks + Hot Plug Drive Trays Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 13:47:09 +0200 Message-ID: <73958189-4a95-494a-94c1-01f200acb16d@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2865271873201082876==" --===============2865271873201082876== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone need Compaq hot plug SCSI drives and/or drive trays (part number 386536-001)? I have 16 of them spare. Julf --===============2865271873201082876==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Sun Jul 20 14:48:07 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Compaq 9.1GB Ultra3 SCSI disks + Hot Plug Drive Trays Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 10:47:49 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <73958189-4a95-494a-94c1-01f200acb16d@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2635885181349174335==" --===============2635885181349174335== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Location? On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 8:20 AM Johan Helsingius via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Anyone need Compaq hot plug SCSI drives and/or drive trays > (part number 386536-001)? I have 16 of them spare. > > Julf > > --===============2635885181349174335==-- From julf@julf.com Sun Jul 20 14:59:34 2025 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Compaq 9.1GB Ultra3 SCSI disks + Hot Plug Drive Trays Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 16:51:01 +0200 Message-ID: <17dce251-e627-4343-be92-fcf96948b895@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: <73958189-4a95-494a-94c1-01f200acb16d@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5705659270824395820==" --===============5705659270824395820== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Forgot to mention that I am based in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. Julf On 20/07/2025 13:47, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > Anyone need Compaq hot plug SCSI drives and/or drive trays > (part number 386536-001)? I have 16 of them spare. > > Julf > --===============5705659270824395820==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun Jul 20 15:15:20 2025 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 11:15:03 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1171144326342845659==" --===============1171144326342845659== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? - Peter --===============1171144326342845659==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:08:22 2025 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 16:08:03 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3363118145816446802==" --===============3363118145816446802== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I did find that out a little while ago. But the disks do seem as rare as hen's teeth for sure! I came across an SQ319RD drive for cheap a little while back and was thinking of trying to get it to work with one of my PDP-11s, but without a disk it is just a paper weight. Figured I'd ask here too but you just confirmed I'm going to have to be very patient. I'd like to have a few disks but right now I just need one so I can verify the drive works. -Peter On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 3:59 PM Travis Pierce wrote: > I've been looking for these removable drive cartridges for years with no > luck. Sysgen called these DuraPak's and SyQuest called them Q-PAK's. I'm > not sure why they had different names. > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. >> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? >> >> - Peter >> > --===============3363118145816446802==-- From wayne.sudol@hotmail.com Sun Jul 20 20:38:00 2025 From: Wayne S To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 20:37:53 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1630486846732948607==" --===============1630486846732948607== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Easier to get the serial zip drive to work. There=E2=80=99s still carts avail= able for those. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 20, 2025, at 13:15, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFI did find that out a little while ago. But the disks do seem as r= are as > hen's teeth for sure! > I came across an SQ319RD drive for cheap a little while back and was > thinking of trying to get it to work with one of my PDP-11s, but without a > disk it is just a paper weight. > Figured I'd ask here too but you just confirmed I'm going to have to be > very patient. I'd like to have a few disks but right now I just need one so > I can verify the drive works. >=20 > -Peter >=20 >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Travis Pierce >> wrote: >>=20 >> I've been looking for these removable drive cartridges for years with no >> luck. Sysgen called these DuraPak's and SyQuest called them Q-PAK's. I'm >> not sure why they had different names. >>=20 >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. >>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? >>>=20 >>> - Peter >>>=20 >>=20 --===============1630486846732948607==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Sun Jul 20 22:40:28 2025 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 15:40:20 -0700 Message-ID: <687d7055.170a0220.2def7c.34f3@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB720868DB469FCA2E39A8A317E452A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4751379273263585890==" --===============4751379273263585890== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I can attest these carts are nearly impossible to find.=C2=A0 I hunted for eo= ns to find a 5mb for my SQ306rd.=C2=A0 Last month I found a 'QPAK' and was al= l excited but it turned out to be a 10MB SQ200 instead.=C2=A0 Which is fine, = because right after that I found a 2 unit Tecmar drive that had both a 5mb an= d 10mb Syquest drive in it and both appear to have one cartridge each.=C2=A0 = So now I have two kicks at the can for the 10mb drive and one for the 5mb.But= yeah.. super hard to find.=C2=A0 I think part of it is the early carts are n= ot well labeled and look like random junk to most people.BradSent from my Gal= axy -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk Date: 2025-07-20 1:45=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discuss= ion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Travis Pierc= e , Wayne S Subject: = [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Easier to get the serial zip drive to work.= There=E2=80=99s still carts available for those.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul = 20, 2025, at 13:15, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote:= > > =EF=BB=BFI did find that out a little while ago. But the disks do seem as= rare as> hen's teeth for sure!> I came across an SQ319RD drive for cheap a l= ittle while back and was> thinking of trying to get it to work with one of my= PDP-11s, but without a> disk it is just a paper weight.> Figured I'd ask her= e too but you just confirmed I'm going to have to be> very patient. I'd like = to have a few disks but right now I just need one so> I can verify the drive = works.> > -Peter> >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Travis Pierce >> wrote:>> >> I've been looking for these removabl= e drive cartridges for years with no>> luck.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Sysgen called these = DuraPak's and SyQuest called them Q-PAK's.=C2=A0 I'm>> not sure why they had = different names.>> >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom v= ia cctalk <>> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote:>> >>> I am looking for a 15MB S= Q300 disk cartridge in working condition.>>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mi= nd parting with?>>> >>> - Peter>>> >>=20 --===============4751379273263585890==-- From julf@julf.com Mon Jul 21 13:07:33 2025 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Compaq Proliant Essentials CDs Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 15:07:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <73958189-4a95-494a-94c1-01f200acb16d@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3494526485437578319==" --===============3494526485437578319== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Anyone need the Compaq management software pack for Proliant servers? I am based in Amsterdam, The Netherlands. Julf --===============3494526485437578319==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Jul 21 14:07:33 2025 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 10:07:16 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CCO1PR08MB720868DB469FCA2E39A8A317E452A=40CO1PR08MB?= =?utf-8?q?7208=2Enamprd08=2Eprod=2Eoutlook=2Ecom=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0650490834047462267==" --===============0650490834047462267== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wayne, I have an external SCSI and an internal SCSI ZIP100 for my two Amigas. I know they made a parallel version but I don't think I've ever seen a serial version. As in RS232. I used to have a USB version but it gave up. I guess if there was a serial version it could probably be made to work over a DLV11 port, like the TU58. - Peter On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 4:37=E2=80=AFPM Wayne S w= rote: > Easier to get the serial zip drive to work. There=E2=80=99s still carts ava= ilable > for those. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jul 20, 2025, at 13:15, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFI did find that out a little while ago. But the disks do seem as= rare as > > hen's teeth for sure! > > I came across an SQ319RD drive for cheap a little while back and was > > thinking of trying to get it to work with one of my PDP-11s, but without > a > > disk it is just a paper weight. > > Figured I'd ask here too but you just confirmed I'm going to have to be > > very patient. I'd like to have a few disks but right now I just need one > so > > I can verify the drive works. > > > > -Peter > > > >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Travis Pierce > > >> wrote: > >> > >> I've been looking for these removable drive cartridges for years with no > >> luck. Sysgen called these DuraPak's and SyQuest called them Q-PAK's. > I'm > >> not sure why they had different names. > >> > >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. > >>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? > >>> > >>> - Peter > >>> > >> > --===============0650490834047462267==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Jul 21 14:10:20 2025 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 10:10:01 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <687d7055.170a0220.2def7c.34f3@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2233274751717995318==" --===============2233274751717995318== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Brad, Well, I guess I have a paper weight for now then and just need to be patient and keep both eyes open. Congrats on scoring two of each for your drives! And yeah, from the pictures I have found of those earlier cartridges, they really were poorly labeled. -Peter On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 1:15=E2=80=AFAM brad via cctalk wrote: > I can attest these carts are nearly impossible to find. I hunted for eons > to find a 5mb for my SQ306rd. Last month I found a 'QPAK' and was all > excited but it turned out to be a 10MB SQ200 instead. Which is fine, > because right after that I found a 2 unit Tecmar drive that had both a 5mb > and 10mb Syquest drive in it and both appear to have one cartridge each. > So now I have two kicks at the can for the 10mb drive and one for the > 5mb.But yeah.. super hard to find. I think part of it is the early carts > are not well labeled and look like random junk to most people.BradSent from > my Galaxy > -------- Original message --------From: Wayne S via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Date: 2025-07-20 1:45=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) T= o: > "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Cc: Travis Pierce , Wayne S < > wayne.sudol(a)hotmail.com> Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? > Easier to get the serial zip drive to work. There=E2=80=99s still carts ava= ilable > for those.Sent from my iPhone> On Jul 20, 2025, at 13:15, Peter Ekstrom via > cctalk wrote:> > =EF=BB=BFI did find that out a l= ittle > while ago. But the disks do seem as rare as> hen's teeth for sure!> I came > across an SQ319RD drive for cheap a little while back and was> thinking of > trying to get it to work with one of my PDP-11s, but without a> disk it is > just a paper weight.> Figured I'd ask here too but you just confirmed I'm > going to have to be> very patient. I'd like to have a few disks but right > now I just need one so> I can verify the drive works.> > -Peter> >> On Sun, > Jul 20, 2025 at 3:59=E2=80=AFPM Travis Pierce >> > wrote:>> >> I've been looking for these removable drive cartridges for > years with no>> luck. Sysgen called these DuraPak's and SyQuest called > them Q-PAK's. I'm>> not sure why they had different names.>> >> On Sun, > Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk <>> cctalk(a)class= iccmp.org> > wrote:>> >>> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working > condition.>>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with?>>> >>> - > Peter>>> >> --===============2233274751717995318==-- From bill.gunshannon@hotmail.com Mon Jul 21 14:47:20 2025 From: Bill Gunshannon To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] PDP-11/93 memory question Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 10:47:08 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0156973474525985484==" --===============0156973474525985484== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have an 11/93 with 2MB of memory onboard. I would like to kick it up to 4MB. I got some memory a while ago that was supposed to be PMI for it but it turned out to be UNIBUS and thus no help. I have some old fashioned QBUS memory module floating around. Will these work to add the missing 2MB or can the 11/93 only use PMI? Would be nice to wake this old box up again. I have this cool Decromancer just crying for somewhere to run. bill --===============0156973474525985484==-- From travispierce70@gmail.com Mon Jul 21 14:52:40 2025 From: Travis Pierce To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Sun, 20 Jul 2025 13:59:03 -0600 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6637084448018770835==" --===============6637084448018770835== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I've been looking for these removable drive cartridges for years with no luck. Sysgen called these DuraPak's and SyQuest called them Q-PAK's. I'm not sure why they had different names. On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 9:25 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. > Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? > > - Peter > --===============6637084448018770835==-- From johnhreinhardt@thereinhardts.org Mon Jul 21 15:31:18 2025 From: "John H. Reinhardt" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: PDP-11/93 memory question Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 10:17:16 -0500 Message-ID: <34068d32-7e63-4ba4-8761-ab9976d0ac4c@thereinhardts.org> In-Reply-To: =?utf-8?q?=3CLV8P221MB1469420CE5F7966FCC7DA150ED5DA=40LV8P221MB?= =?utf-8?q?1469=2ENAMP221=2EPROD=2EOUTLOOK=2ECOM=3E?= MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7776314260362833120==" --===============7776314260362833120== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/21/2025 9:47 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I have an 11/93 with 2MB of memory onboard. I would like to kick it up > to 4MB.=C2=A0 I got some memory a while ago that was supposed to be PMI for > it but it turned out to be UNIBUS and thus no help.=C2=A0 I have some old > fashioned QBUS memory module floating around.=C2=A0 Will these work to add > the missing 2MB or can the 11/93 only use PMI? > > Would be nice to wake this old box up again.=C2=A0 I have this cool > Decromancer just crying for somewhere to run. > > bill Bill, =C2=A0=C2=A0 You can use regular QBUS memory in an 11/93 if you put it after= the CPU board.=C2=A0 That is, assuming your CPU is in slot 1 (which it proba= bly is), then the QBUS memory goes in slot 2 (and beyond if multiple boards).= =C2=A0 If you had a separate PMI board then that would go in slot 1 and the K= DJ11 into slot 2.=C2=A0 Do NOT put the QBUS memory ahead of the CPU, that won= 't work. Conversely, you CAN put PMI memory after the CPU, it then just funct= ions as a QBUS memory without the performance enhancement. Regards, =C2=A0 John H. Reinhardt --===============7776314260362833120==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Mon Jul 21 16:17:43 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 12:17:17 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5035432615600949755==" --===============5035432615600949755== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I have a 44MB SQ400, condition unknown; any use to you? On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:25 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. > Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? > > - Peter > --===============5035432615600949755==-- From epekstrom@gmail.com Mon Jul 21 17:52:28 2025 From: Peter Ekstrom To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 13:52:08 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0155220998706578312==" --===============0155220998706578312== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Hi Mike, Honestly, I don't know. How wide is the cartridge? I have an 88MB cartridge but it is too big. - Peter On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 12:17 PM Mike Stein wrote: > I have a 44MB SQ400, condition unknown; any use to you? > > On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:25 AM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. >> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? >> >> - Peter >> > --===============0155220998706578312==-- From bear@typewritten.org Mon Jul 21 21:32:10 2025 From: "r.stricklin" To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 14:14:38 -0700 Message-ID: <1D12511A-8738-42ED-B0CF-C6628C54835B@typewritten.org> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6477027195057745634==" --===============6477027195057745634== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable SQ400 (44 MB) is physically compatible with your 88 MB cartridge. Not compati= ble with SQ300-series drive. ok bear. > On Jul 21, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Hi Mike, >=20 > Honestly, I don't know. How wide is the cartridge? I have an 88MB cartridge > but it is too big. >=20 > - Peter >=20 > On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein = wrote: >=20 >> I have a 44MB SQ400, condition unknown; any use to you? >>=20 >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >>=20 >>> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. >>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? >>>=20 >>> - Peter >>>=20 >>=20 >=20 --===============6477027195057745634==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Tue Jul 22 02:59:49 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: SyQuest disk anyone? Date: Mon, 21 Jul 2025 22:59:29 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1D12511A-8738-42ED-B0CF-C6628C54835B@typewritten.org> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2836453573618227199==" --===============2836453573618227199== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yeah, we already discovered that ;-) Anybody want a 44MB SQ400 cart, condition unknown? On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 5:40=E2=80=AFPM r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > SQ400 (44 MB) is physically compatible with your 88 MB cartridge. Not > compatible with SQ300-series drive. > > ok > bear. > > > On Jul 21, 2025, at 10:52 AM, Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Hi Mike, > > > > Honestly, I don't know. How wide is the cartridge? I have an 88MB > cartridge > > but it is too big. > > > > - Peter > > > > On Mon, Jul 21, 2025 at 12:17=E2=80=AFPM Mike Stein wrote: > > > >> I have a 44MB SQ400, condition unknown; any use to you? > >> > >> On Sun, Jul 20, 2025 at 11:25=E2=80=AFAM Peter Ekstrom via cctalk < > >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > >>> I am looking for a 15MB SQ300 disk cartridge in working condition. > >>> Anyone have one they wouldn't mind parting with? > >>> > >>> - Peter > >>> > >> > > > > --===============2836453573618227199==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Tue Jul 22 05:05:17 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] AMIGA/040th =?utf-8?b?4oCT?= Step Behind the Curtain @ VCF West 2025 @ CHM - Aug 1 &2 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 01:04:54 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4014722286805032894==" --===============4014722286805032894== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Travel back to the legendary 1984 CES debut of the Amiga and witness exclusive prototype demos in a fully immersive recreation. Rare Amiga Corp and Commodore artifacts will be on display, along with special presentations celebrating key milestones—including the launch of the Amiga 500 and its pop culture impact, featuring a recreation of the Spielberg-inspired “bedroom computer” scene. Explore the revolutionary NewTek Video Toaster and Flyer in a 1990s editing room, and experience rare Amiga coin-op arcade machines in action. Dive into the vibrant world of European Amiga demos and explore a full lineup of Amiga systems—from original classics to modern enhancements using Raspberry Pi, AmiKit, Vampire, MorphOS, AROS, and AmigaOS 4. Browse Tony’s Amiga Emporium for collectible systems, and check out the latest hardware from A-Eon and AmigaKit, including the A1222, A600GS, and A1200NG. Don’t miss this celebration of innovation and legacy! Show info: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/ Tickets: https://vcfed.org/events/vintage-computer-festival-west/vcf-west-tickets/ Jeff Brace --===============4014722286805032894==-- From jeffrey@vcfed.org Wed Jul 23 00:17:53 2025 From: Jeffrey Brace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] VCF West 2025 Hotel Block Still Available! Date: Tue, 22 Jul 2025 20:17:29 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6570333547193119272==" --===============6570333547193119272== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit What do you mean you haven't booked your hotel room for VCF West 2025? The hotel block is filling up fast! Check out this link for more info: https://vcfed.org/2025/07/22/vcf-west-2025-hotel-still-available/ --===============6570333547193119272==-- From julf@julf.com Wed Jul 23 12:58:28 2025 From: Johan Helsingius To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West 2025 Hotel Block Still Available! Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 14:58:17 +0200 Message-ID: <3c5a06db-0eed-4f36-8deb-cf1b5ab8ee13@Julf.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4414177751909698138==" --===============4414177751909698138== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 23/07/2025 02:17, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > What do you mean you haven't booked your hotel room for VCF West 2025? No, considering I live in Europe, and it has become clear that traveling to the US can be a rather horrible experience that I'd rather avoid. Julf --===============4414177751909698138==-- From c.murray.mccullough@gmail.com Wed Jul 23 13:23:24 2025 From: Murray McCullough To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: VCF West 2025 Hotel Block Still Available! Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 09:23:05 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <3c5a06db-0eed-4f36-8deb-cf1b5ab8ee13@Julf.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0578285324922736044==" --===============0578285324922736044== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I live in Canada and feel much the same. Murray On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 9:15 AM Johan Helsingius via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 23/07/2025 02:17, Jeffrey Brace via cctalk wrote: > > What do you mean you haven't booked your hotel room for VCF West 2025? > > No, considering I live in Europe, and it has become clear that > traveling to the US can be a rather horrible experience that I'd > rather avoid. > > Julf > > --===============0578285324922736044==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 23 18:00:19 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] NeXT Cubes Available Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 14:00:02 -0400 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1927460939329597115==" --===============1927460939329597115== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit (forgive the dual post with Midatlantic Retro if you're in both groups....) Hello I have been in my spare time messing around with NeXT hardware and I have built three extra working NeXT cube systems (mouse keyboard, computer, display) that I would be willing to let go for less than Ebay prices (look on Ebay for sold status complete systems). Two of them have SCSI2SD hard drives and I have one that still has a working original drive. I don't have any optical disks available, but the optical drives come with the system, untested. There are always caveats to define "works", but basically these are working computer systems that could be connected to a network and they come with a basic Next OS installed. I don't want to ship these if possible. So if you're willing to pick up the system (Landenberg, PA), you can try before you buy and pick the one you want at a discount to Ebay price. Contact me through kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm with your offer/timeline. FIrst come first served. Shipping is available if you want to pay a shipping charge, plus postage. I have shipping boxes. I am going to VCFMW this year, but I am flying there and won't be able to bring them. If you want the cube system delivered to VCFMW, you'd have to find someone to deliver it for you, or have it shipped. I am willing to deliver a system a reasonable distance from the Phila/Baltimore area. Cash, CC, Paypal, check accepted. Bill Degnan 484 732 7041 kennettclassic.com --===============1927460939329597115==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Wed Jul 23 18:16:25 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT Cubes Available Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 14:16:16 -0400 Message-ID: <1d799b5c-88a5-4d5c-8c5a-589c64744fe2@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6364008686757354571==" --===============6364008686757354571== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit 030 or 040 systems? Both had optical (though the Turbo 040 did not IIRC). C On 7/23/2025 2:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > (forgive the dual post with Midatlantic Retro if you're in both groups....) > > Hello > > I have been in my spare time messing around with NeXT hardware and I have > built three extra working NeXT cube systems (mouse keyboard, computer, > display) that I would be willing to let go for less than Ebay prices (look > on Ebay for sold status complete systems). Two of them have SCSI2SD hard > drives and I have one that still has a working original drive. I don't > have any optical disks available, but the optical drives come with the > system, untested. There are always caveats to define "works", but > basically these are working computer systems that could be connected to a > network and they come with a basic Next OS installed. > > I don't want to ship these if possible. So if you're willing to pick up > the system (Landenberg, PA), you can try before you buy and pick the one > you want at a discount to Ebay price. Contact me through > kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm with your offer/timeline. FIrst come first > served. > > Shipping is available if you want to pay a shipping charge, plus postage. > I have shipping boxes. I am going to VCFMW this year, but I am flying > there and won't be able to bring them. If you want the cube system > delivered to VCFMW, you'd have to find someone to deliver it for you, or > have it shipped. I am willing to deliver a system a reasonable distance > from the Phila/Baltimore area. > > Cash, CC, Paypal, check accepted. > > Bill Degnan > 484 732 7041 > kennettclassic.com --===============6364008686757354571==-- From commodorejohn@gmail.com Wed Jul 23 22:14:01 2025 From: John To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 15:13:47 -0700 Message-ID: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8535928935300430806==" --===============8535928935300430806== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled decent sort, and will be missed. --===============8535928935300430806==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Wed Jul 23 22:22:31 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 18:22:14 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0133538751080764900==" --===============0133538751080764900== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Seconded. Although we have never met, I have corresponded with Chuck on all subjects vintage computing since the late 90s. Bill On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:20 PM John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. > --===============0133538751080764900==-- From pcw@mesanet.com Wed Jul 23 22:51:50 2025 From: Peter Wallace To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 15:20:33 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0136339609299472177==" --===============0136339609299472177== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, 23 Jul 2025, John via cctalk wrote: > Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 15:13:47 -0700 > From: John via cctalk > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org > Cc: John > Subject: [cctalk] Sad news re: Chuck Guzis > > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. > So sorry to hear this. A real expert and class act. Peter Wallace Mesa Electronics --===============0136339609299472177==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 23 23:04:25 2025 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 16:04:18 -0700 Message-ID: <0MCszN-1unkut1ml9-003JOc@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7204614048567971341==" --===============7204614048567971341== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is extremely sad news. Chuck was a fixture of the community. He helped m= e get my Everex STEP Megacube going which was my return into vintage computin= g. I hadn't talked to.him in a while. Last time i spoke to him was after his = resection and he semed to be in good spirits. He will be missed.=C2=A0-Ali -------- Original message --------From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Date: 7/23/25 3:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-T= opic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Seconded. Alth= ough we have never met, I have corresponded with Chuck on allsubjects vintage= computing since the late 90s.BillOn Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:20=E2=80=AFPM Joh= n via cctalk wrote:> There's been discussion of this= on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look> like anybody's brought it up here y= et. Per Mike Brutman, list member> Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away re= cently. He was highly> knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-= around even-keeled> decent sort, and will be missed.> --===============7204614048567971341==-- From brad@techtimetraveller.com Wed Jul 23 23:33:38 2025 From: brad To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 16:33:32 -0700 Message-ID: <6881714d.170a0220.13b441.0634@mx.google.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3836498095725657250==" --===============3836498095725657250== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This saddens me greatly.=C2=A0 I wondered why he wasn't posting on vcfed.=C2= =A0 He helped me through so many projects.=C2=A0 Never short tempered or impa= tient.=C2=A0 Great guy and a huge loss to our community of vintage tech lover= s.BradSent from my Galaxy -------- Original message --------From: Peter Wallace via cctalk Date: 2025-07-23 4:00=E2=80=AFp.m. (GMT-08:00) To: John via c= ctalk Cc: John , Peter W= allace Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis On = Wed, 23 Jul 2025, John via cctalk wrote:> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 15:13:47 -07= 00> From: John via cctalk > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.= org> Cc: John > Subject: [cctalk] Sad news re: Chu= ck Guzis> > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn'= t look> like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member>= Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly> knowledgeab= le, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled> decent sort, a= nd will be missed.>So sorry to hear this.A real expert and class act.Peter Wa= llaceMesa Electronics --===============3836498095725657250==-- From healyzh@avanthar.com Thu Jul 24 00:36:50 2025 From: Zane Healy To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 17:28:17 -0700 Message-ID: <28E06472-204E-44B4-9924-8B509CDA7A36@avanthar.com> In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2629350447618640821==" --===============2629350447618640821== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Jul 23, 2025, at 3:13 PM, John via cctalk wrote: >=20 > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. Thank you for letting us know. While I may not like the news, it=E2=80=99s b= etter to know than not know. He will definitely be missed, he=E2=80=99d been= on this list from pretty much the beginning. =20 Zane --===============2629350447618640821==-- From cliendo@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 01:27:05 2025 From: Christian Liendo To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 21:26:47 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7989015173474242559==" --===============7989015173474242559== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow, oh man. Chuck was a good good man. I lack the words to say. On Wed, Jul 23, 2025, 6:20=E2=80=AFPM John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. > --===============7989015173474242559==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Thu Jul 24 02:09:15 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 21:09:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2101813956320991803==" --===============2101813956320991803== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/23/25 17:13, John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. WOW!  TERRIBLE news, but thanks for relaying what happened. Jon --===============2101813956320991803==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:26:12 2025 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 10:25:52 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2146607137031739197==" --===============2146607137031739197== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Rest in peace Chuck. On Thu, 24 July 2025, 9:35 am Christian Liendo via cctalk, < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wow, oh man. Chuck was a good good man. I lack the words to say. > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2025, 6:20 PM John via cctalk > wrote: > > > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > > decent sort, and will be missed. > > > --===============2146607137031739197==-- From ethan.dicks@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:59:00 2025 From: Ethan Dicks To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 22:58:35 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============9029772488792919005==" --===============9029772488792919005== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:20=E2=80=AFPM John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. Very sad to hear. Thank you for saying something. I have direct conversations with Chuck going back more than 20 years. He definitely knew what he was talking about. I always enjoyed his answers to questions. He will be missed. -ethan --===============9029772488792919005==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 02:59:57 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: NeXT Cubes Available Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 22:59:40 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1d799b5c-88a5-4d5c-8c5a-589c64744fe2@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8617442500842938557==" --===============8617442500842938557== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit I am reassembling everything now. On my workbench at the moment I have one of each. 68030 and 68040. I have to check the other two. I plan to sell two maybe three. Depends on the offers. I will post detailed photos of the systems asap Bill On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 10:55 PM cz via cctalk wrote: > 030 or 040 systems? Both had optical (though the Turbo 040 did not IIRC). > > C > > On 7/23/2025 2:00 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > (forgive the dual post with Midatlantic Retro if you're in both > groups....) > > > > Hello > > > > I have been in my spare time messing around with NeXT hardware and I have > > built three extra working NeXT cube systems (mouse keyboard, computer, > > display) that I would be willing to let go for less than Ebay prices > (look > > on Ebay for sold status complete systems). Two of them have SCSI2SD hard > > drives and I have one that still has a working original drive. I don't > > have any optical disks available, but the optical drives come with the > > system, untested. There are always caveats to define "works", but > > basically these are working computer systems that could be connected to a > > network and they come with a basic Next OS installed. > > > > I don't want to ship these if possible. So if you're willing to pick up > > the system (Landenberg, PA), you can try before you buy and pick the one > > you want at a discount to Ebay price. Contact me through > > kennettclassic.com/contact.cfm with your offer/timeline. FIrst come > first > > served. > > > > Shipping is available if you want to pay a shipping charge, plus postage. > > I have shipping boxes. I am going to VCFMW this year, but I am flying > > there and won't be able to bring them. If you want the cube system > > delivered to VCFMW, you'd have to find someone to deliver it for you, or > > have it shipped. I am willing to deliver a system a reasonable distance > > from the Phila/Baltimore area. > > > > Cash, CC, Paypal, check accepted. > > > > Bill Degnan > > 484 732 7041 > > kennettclassic.com > > --===============8617442500842938557==-- From rtomek@ceti.pl Thu Jul 24 04:16:02 2025 From: Tomasz Rola To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 06:07:58 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6634464637816631058==" --===============6634464637816631058== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 03:13:47PM -0700, John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. Sad news. I liked Chuck which means I liked reading his messages, because I have never met him in person. So I knew him virtually but the loss is not virtual. RIP Chuck. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola(a)bigfoot.com ** --===============6634464637816631058==-- From bhilpert@shaw.ca Thu Jul 24 04:34:23 2025 From: Brent Hilpert To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 21:34:15 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0804516086997888469==" --===============0804516086997888469== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2025Jul 23,, at 3:13 PM, John via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. Sad to hear. I liked hearing Chuck's inside stories and anecdotes of working in the indust= ry in the 60s. --===============0804516086997888469==-- From cctalk@ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 24 05:16:30 2025 From: Ali To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 22:16:22 -0700 Message-ID: <0MMTgu-1un5mg1V6s-00DmjQ@mrelay.perfora.net> In-Reply-To: <6881714d.170a0220.13b441.0634@mx.google.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8844996427921971668==" --===============8844996427921971668== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Ahhhh... A fellow galaxy user having to deal with the buggy email program not= doing proper cr/lf...=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0= =C2=A0-Ali -------- Original message --------From: brad via cctalk Date: 7/23/25 4:40 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic an= d Off-Topic Posts" Cc: John , brad Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: = Chuck Guzis This saddens me greatly.=C2=A0 I wondered why he wasn't posting o= n vcfed.=C2=A0 He helped me through so many projects.=C2=A0 Never short tempe= red or impatient.=C2=A0 Great guy and a huge loss to our community of vintage= tech lovers.BradSent from my Galaxy-------- Original message --------From: P= eter Wallace via cctalk Date: 2025-07-23=C2=A0 4:00= =E2=80=AFp.m.=C2=A0 (GMT-08:00) To: John via cctalk = Cc: John , Peter Wallace Subj= ect: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis On Wed, 23 Jul 2025, John via ccta= lk wrote:> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2025 15:13:47 -0700> From: John via cctalk > To: cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> Cc: John > Subject: [cctalk] Sad news re: Chuck Guzis> > There's been discus= sion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look> like anybody's brought = it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member> Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) pa= ssed away recently. He was highly> knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert,= and an all-around even-keeled> decent sort, and will be missed.>So sorry to = hear this.A real expert and class act.Peter WallaceMesa Electronics --===============8844996427921971668==-- From curiousmarc3@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 09:27:50 2025 From: Curious Marc To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 11:27:33 +0200 Message-ID: <9B1F56B5-2345-4079-A051-752F3E29A405@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4805454341239671492==" --===============4805454341239671492== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Oh that=E2=80=99s so very sad. He was my goto referral when people asked me a= bout recovering weird tape formats. Just made one last week noticed his websi= te was down and his email bounced :-(.=20 Marc > On Jul 24, 2025, at 12:20=E2=80=AFAM, John via cctalk wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BFThere's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't= look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. --===============4805454341239671492==-- From mhs.stein@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 12:04:36 2025 From: Mike Stein To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 08:04:15 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6801708432387007992==" --===============6801708432387007992== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Tragic news! I had chatted with him before and after his operation and he seemed in good spirits and it seemed to have gone well, but you never know... Like many others in this hobby, I'll miss him very much. On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:30 PM John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. > --===============6801708432387007992==-- From billdegnan@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 14:14:28 2025 From: Bill Degnan To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 10:14:10 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6077889643397417036==" --===============6077889643397417036== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I looked for an obituary but did not find one yet. b On Thu, Jul 24, 2025 at 8:20=E2=80=AFAM Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Tragic news! I had chatted with him before and after his operation and he > seemed in good spirits and it seemed to have gone well, but you never > know... > > Like many others in this hobby, I'll miss him very much. > > On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:30=E2=80=AFPM John via cctalk > wrote: > > > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > > decent sort, and will be missed. > > > --===============6077889643397417036==-- From dce@skynet.be Thu Jul 24 14:21:11 2025 From: Dominique Carlier To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 16:20:45 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <20250723151347.00004cb1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3920706144093859587==" --===============3920706144093859587== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Chuck was a fount of knowledge and rare information. I've preserved many of his cctalk posts here locally, comments and suggestions so generously shared with the community. This is a sad news. May he rest in peace. Dominique On 24/07/2025 00:13, John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. --===============3920706144093859587==-- From barythrin@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 16:26:27 2025 From: John Herron To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 11:26:06 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <9B1F56B5-2345-4079-A051-752F3E29A405@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4047569733610269510==" --===============4047569733610269510== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Wow. My condolences to his family and loved ones. He was an amazing wealth of knowledge and contributed so much positive impact to the vintage computing community. He will greatly be missed. On Thu, Jul 24, 2025, 9:35 AM Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Oh that=E2=80=99s so very sad. He was my goto referral when people asked me= about > recovering weird tape formats. Just made one last week noticed his website > was down and his email bounced :-(. > Marc > > > On Jul 24, 2025, at 12:20=E2=80=AFAM, John via cctalk > wrote: > > > > =EF=BB=BFThere's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn= 't look > > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > > decent sort, and will be missed. > --===============4047569733610269510==-- From anders.k.nelson@gmail.com Thu Jul 24 17:50:16 2025 From: Anders Nelson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 10:49:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8172289539574426775==" --===============8172289539574426775== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =F0=9F=98=A5=F0=9F=98=A5=F0=9F=98=A5 Huge loss. Chuck always seemed to help l= evel off the occasional flame war in this group and add key insight into the restoration of esoteric formats and the media it arrived on. This may sound a bit out of left-field, but I literally have Chuck Guzis listed as beneficiary of my vintage computer stuff in my will - I figured he would know where it would best go. I never met him in person but hoped I'd run into him at some event like VCF (I'm in NY so haven't been to others outside of VCF East). Big shoes to fill, I hope we carry on his good work and his good attitude. -- Anders Nelson www.andersknelson.com On Thu, Jul 24, 2025 at 9:55=E2=80=AFAM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wow. My condolences to his family and loved ones. He was an amazing wealth > of knowledge and contributed so much positive impact to the vintage > computing community. He will greatly be missed. > > On Thu, Jul 24, 2025, 9:35 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > Oh that=E2=80=99s so very sad. He was my goto referral when people asked = me about > > recovering weird tape formats. Just made one last week noticed his > website > > was down and his email bounced :-(. > > Marc > > > > > On Jul 24, 2025, at 12:20=E2=80=AFAM, John via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > =EF=BB=BFThere's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doe= sn't > look > > > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > > > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > > > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around > even-keeled > > > decent sort, and will be missed. > > > --===============8172289539574426775==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Thu Jul 24 18:59:46 2025 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2025 11:59:41 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============1899433535373910331==" --===============1899433535373910331== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Thu, 24 Jul 2025, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > This may sound a bit out of left-field, but I literally have Chuck Guzis > listed as beneficiary of my vintage computer stuff in my will - I figured > he would know where it would best go. I never met him in person but hoped > I'd run into him at some event like VCF (I'm in NY so haven't been to > others outside of VCF East). I had had Don Maslin listed for the most important parts of my collection; then I changed it to Chuck. I told my sister, that she could offer to trade for a tuba. > Big shoes to fill, I hope we carry on his good work and his good attitude. We obviously should try, but we aren't as knowledgeable, and don't have attitudes comparable to his. He was always GENTLE at telling any of us that we were WRONG. He is missed. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin(a)xenosoft.com --===============1899433535373910331==-- From dkelvey@hotmail.com Fri Jul 25 03:01:58 2025 From: dwight To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 03:01:52 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3915761071944950710==" --===============3915761071944950710== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There was little he didn't know about data storage methods. As far as I can r= ecall he always treated others with respect. He recovered some 8 inch floppy = data for me once that I didn't have the right setup for. I considered him as = one of those I'd really have like to meet in person. Rest in peace, friend Chuck. Dwight ________________________________ From: Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 23, 2025 3:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Bill Degnan Subject: [cctalk] Re: Sad news re: Chuck Guzis Seconded. Although we have never met, I have corresponded with Chuck on all subjects vintage computing since the late 90s. Bill On Wed, Jul 23, 2025 at 6:20=E2=80=AFPM John via cctalk wrote: > There's been discussion of this on the VCFed forum, but it doesn't look > like anybody's brought it up here yet. Per Mike Brutman, list member > Chuck Guzis a.k.a. Chuck(G) passed away recently. He was highly > knowledgeable, a full-bore storage expert, and an all-around even-keeled > decent sort, and will be missed. > --===============3915761071944950710==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Fri Jul 25 04:09:59 2025 From: Devin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 00:09:50 -0400 Message-ID: <9068BCF1-61AA-4F51-B530-A0B64B8EA1B1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6294658939489520263==" --===============6294658939489520263== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Greetings, Been a long while since i have posted in on here. I usually discuss my pdp 11= and vax systems. I have decided to pivot my career to scada syatems. The com= pany i am with has some interesting stuff that goes pretty far back. Our cust= om in house tech is a plc pump controller with a radio connection for data lo= gging and control. Pretty cool, 8051 based, with a version of basic in rom th= at has scada functions added. The backend servers are just linux systems, al= though in a modular backplane for easy replacement. I have not read much about this tech outside of what we have in house. Are t= here other historic scada system computers or technologies that are similar, = easily found on ebay for example? Ive seen some mention of old allen bradley stuff, but not much notes on how i= t would be used remotely in the field, as a remote terminal unit. Any suggestions are appriciated, trying to read more into scada tech outside = of my company's tech. Thanks, Devin D. --===============6294658939489520263==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Fri Jul 25 15:05:21 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 10:05:14 -0500 Message-ID: <4e5587e3-33fa-d423-a2e1-bad92ce48e00@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <9068BCF1-61AA-4F51-B530-A0B64B8EA1B1@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4977619418592620457==" --===============4977619418592620457== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/24/25 23:09, Devin via cctalk wrote: > Greetings, > > Been a long while since i have posted in on here. I usually discuss my pdp = 11 and vax systems. I have decided to pivot my career to scada syatems. The c= ompany i am with has some interesting stuff that goes pretty far back. Our cu= stom in house tech is a plc pump controller with a radio connection for data = logging and control. Pretty cool, 8051 based, with a version of basic in rom = that has scada functions added. The backend servers are just linux systems, = although in a modular backplane for easy replacement. > > I have not read much about this tech outside of what we have in house. Are= there other historic scada system computers or technologies that are similar= , easily found on ebay for example? > > Ive seen some mention of old allen bradley stuff, but not much notes on how= it would be used remotely in the field, as a remote > terminal unit. > Allen-Bradley made a bunch of SCADA gear that was used in=20 power substations. I think theirs MIGHT have been the one that was responsible=20 for the Y2K scare, but it might have been somebody else's unit. Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer=20 thought some of their gear was being bought for the=20 trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for that under=20 trade restrictions. Somebody at that company got in touch=20 with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to=20 insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb=20 that was essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew=20 up the entire pipeline when all the valves slammed shut at=20 the same time.=C2=A0 This info was reported by the famous Jack=20 Anderson in the Washington Post. Jon --===============4977619418592620457==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jul 25 17:13:25 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 13:13:12 -0400 Message-ID: <22e5dfd9-5ca5-406f-918b-3a9bbcfebaa4@alembic.crystel.com> In-Reply-To: <4e5587e3-33fa-d423-a2e1-bad92ce48e00@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7407245352894799142==" --===============7407245352894799142== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what happens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once. I wonder if this led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Just think about how you would feel if you suddenly realized that all the infrastructure based on chips and designs that you stole was now 100% suspect and could blow up at any time. VAX, PDP11, etc.... And remember when the Pentium "bug" came out? Wasn't that just weird.... Ah fun stuff no doubt. > Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought some > of their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and > couldn't be sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that > company got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted > to insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb that was > essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire > pipeline when all the valves slammed shut at the same time.  This info > was reported by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. > > Jon > --===============7407245352894799142==-- From paulkoning@comcast.net Fri Jul 25 17:26:17 2025 From: Paul Koning To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 13:25:59 -0400 Message-ID: <7B7249AE-88D5-4304-A93C-E2AB18A1EF99@comcast.net> In-Reply-To: <22e5dfd9-5ca5-406f-918b-3a9bbcfebaa4@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6552439138932822605==" --===============6552439138932822605== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 25, 2025, at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM, cz via cctalk wrote: >=20 > Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what happ= ens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once.... It reminds me a bit of the opening scene of Red Storm Rising -- Tom Clancy's = second novel though actually a not well credited collaboration with Larry Bon= d, and in some ways more reminiscent of Bond's work than Clancy's. Great stu= ff, in any case. paul >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought some o= f their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be= sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company got in touc= h with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to insert a "feature" i= nto those units. They put in a time bomb that was essentially the same as the= Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the valves slammed sh= ut at the same time. This info was reported by the famous Jack Anderson in t= he Washington Post. >> Jon >=20 --===============6552439138932822605==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Jul 25 17:45:29 2025 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 12:45:11 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <7B7249AE-88D5-4304-A93C-E2AB18A1EF99@comcast.net> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6486588339237226086==" --===============6486588339237226086== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit pdp 14 westhead associates (unknown canadian company) cpm based system i have the manuals and software for their pdm800 system GE fanuc USDATA hmi siemens who is notorious for buying up the companies u seek to learn about gould have manuals for some of that modicon i think motorola got into it for a bit as well On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:35 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 25, 2025, at 1:13 PM, cz via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what > happens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once.... > > It reminds me a bit of the opening scene of Red Storm Rising -- Tom > Clancy's second novel though actually a not well credited collaboration > with Larry Bond, and in some ways more reminiscent of Bond's work than > Clancy's. Great stuff, in any case. > > paul > > >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought > some of their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and > couldn't be sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that > company got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to > insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb that was > essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline > when all the valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was reported > by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. > >> Jon > > > > --===============6486588339237226086==-- From tdk.knight@gmail.com Fri Jul 25 17:49:47 2025 From: Adrian Stoness To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 12:49:28 -0500 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7868377404399521362==" --===============7868377404399521362== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit allen bradly as well yes they had a full system from plc to terminal software and all. they had courses u took on how to use their stuff was very contaquerious from what i understand i also know of pdp11/23's being setup in the 70's to run the controls at fox and rutan mines mills witch were bleeding edge won awards for its time On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:45 PM Adrian Stoness wrote: > pdp 14 > westhead associates (unknown canadian company) cpm based system i have the > manuals and software for their pdm800 system > GE fanuc > USDATA hmi > siemens who is notorious for buying up the companies u seek to learn about > gould have manuals for some of that > modicon > i think motorola got into it for a bit as well > > > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:35 PM Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> > On Jul 25, 2025, at 1:13 PM, cz via cctalk >> wrote: >> > >> > Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what >> happens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once.... >> >> It reminds me a bit of the opening scene of Red Storm Rising -- Tom >> Clancy's second novel though actually a not well credited collaboration >> with Larry Bond, and in some ways more reminiscent of Bond's work than >> Clancy's. Great stuff, in any case. >> >> paul >> >> >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought >> some of their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and >> couldn't be sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that >> company got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to >> insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb that was >> essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline >> when all the valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was reported >> by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. >> >> Jon >> > >> >> --===============7868377404399521362==-- From cz@alembic.crystel.com Fri Jul 25 18:27:37 2025 From: cz To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 14:27:28 -0400 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0041780274314444969==" --===============0041780274314444969== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yep, one of my first joblets was programming Allen Bradley PLC's at Beth=20 Steel Sparrow's point using ladder logic. I remember asking a guy what=20 happened if I made a mistake, seeing all the massive steel ladles and such. His response "People die". What a fun time.... On 7/25/2025 1:49 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > allen bradly as well yes they had a full system from plc to terminal > software and all. they had courses u took on how to use their stuff was > very contaquerious from what i understand >=20 > i also know of pdp11/23's being setup in the 70's to run the controls at > fox and rutan mines mills witch were bleeding edge won awards for its time >=20 > On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:45=E2=80=AFPM Adrian Stoness > wrote: >=20 >> pdp 14 >> westhead associates (unknown canadian company) cpm based system i have the >> manuals and software for their pdm800 system >> GE fanuc >> USDATA hmi >> siemens who is notorious for buying up the companies u seek to learn about >> gould have manuals for some of that >> modicon >> i think motorola got into it for a bit as well >> >> >> On Fri, Jul 25, 2025 at 12:35=E2=80=AFPM Paul Koning via cctalk < >> cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 25, 2025, at 1:13=E2=80=AFPM, cz via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what >>> happens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once.... >>> >>> It reminds me a bit of the opening scene of Red Storm Rising -- Tom >>> Clancy's second novel though actually a not well credited collaboration >>> with Larry Bond, and in some ways more reminiscent of Bond's work than >>> Clancy's. Great stuff, in any case. >>> >>> paul >>> >>>>> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought >>> some of their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and >>> couldn't be sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that >>> company got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted = to >>> insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb that was >>> essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline >>> when all the valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was reported >>> by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. >>>>> Jon >>>> >>> >>> --===============0041780274314444969==-- From holm@freibergnet.de Fri Jul 25 18:57:20 2025 From: Holm Tiffe To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 20:47:20 +0200 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22e5dfd9-5ca5-406f-918b-3a9bbcfebaa4@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============0469560390680401889==" --===============0469560390680401889== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit cz via cctalk wrote: > Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. Imagine what > happens when all your valves go to "open" or "closed" at once. > > I wonder if this led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. Just think about > how you would feel if you suddenly realized that all the infrastructure > based on chips and designs that you stole was now 100% suspect and could > blow up at any time. > > VAX, PDP11, etc.... And remember when the Pentium "bug" came out? Wasn't > that just weird.... > > Ah fun stuff no doubt. > For most ppl here it seems impossible to realize that nothing of this stuff could bei "copied" w/o to understand what's going on on the chip and modify the layous etc. to fit the local foundry technology. For Example.. there is the J11 ..this is a two chip IC, the Russians have made an K1801VM1, VM2 and VM3 ..all single chip designs. They made the N1806VM2 ..an CMOS chip, the K1801VM2 is the NMOS Eqiuvalent. The first "cloned" VAX was an chip that was an 11/730 in original..a bunch of pcbs. They cloned a chip, that never existed. They build their own hardware regarding the processor manual. Yes, there are clones of the J11, DECs fastest PDP11..but this chip made by Harris wasn't truly a success..it never reached the clock rates they have planned. but russians build thier own chips also, this for example: https://www.rouming.cz/roumingShow.php?file=elektronika-mk-90.jpg I've worked some time on a east german VAX11/780: Robotron RVS K1840, An real clone, besides of the fact that it had an K1620 MOS Bit Slice PDP11 made in the GDR in it as console computer and there where 2 5,25" Floppies instead of an 8"... And the MVAXII was cloned in the GDR and in the Soviet Union independently. After the fall of the iron curtain DEC employed all the People working in Dresden at Robotron that build the VAX clones. So Please: Don't think Russians are evil, nor they are stupid. Think more about US Delta rockets using RD180 Engines from Rossia since the USA couldn't build such efficient Engines itself.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMbl_ofF3AM And next..there is not only an CIA and an NSA ..there are other "intelligence" services on the world and they doing ther job.. russian PDP11: https://www.tiffe.de/images/oleg/ .. the PCBs and it's connectors are all metric.. Russians built home computers with ther PDP11 CPUs (K1801VM1) https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/BK/ Schematics of the K1801VM2 CPU (big!) https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/russisch/K1801VM2/ Nice Jet on this: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/russisch/K1801VM2/p010.jpg That's the K1801VM3 chip, with integrated MMU: https://www.tiffe.de/images/K1801BM3.jpg VM3's on the left, H1806VM2 on the right, K1801VM2 at bottom: https://www.tiffe.de/images/K1801-1.jpg ...which one is a "clone"?? Some sort of an LSI11: (M2 CPU) https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/CPU-oben.jpg Magnet Tape Controller from that thing above: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/I17.jpg Yes, that are russian AM2901s.. Thats an Elektronika DBK, with the M2 CPU from above: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/E60/DSCF0065.JPG That's DEC..simply nice to look at: https://www.tiffe.de/Robotron/PDP-VAX/Kernspeicher/ Regards, Holm ..and no, I'n not a russian, but I have russian and ukrainian Friends. -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Goethestrasse 15, 09569 Oederan, USt-Id: DE253710583 info(a)tsht.de Tel +49 37292 709778 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 --===============0469560390680401889==-- From andrew@carrierdetect.com Fri Jul 25 19:15:07 2025 From: Andrew Back To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 19:09:02 +0000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4e5587e3-33fa-d423-a2e1-bad92ce48e00@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4404370799280860716==" --===============4404370799280860716== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 25/07/2025 16:05, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/24/25 23:09, Devin via cctalk wrote: >> Greetings, >> >> Been a long while since i have posted in on here. I usually discuss my pdp= 11 and vax systems. I have decided to pivot my career to scada syatems. The = company i am with has some interesting stuff that goes pretty far back. Our c= ustom in house tech is a plc pump controller with a radio connection for data= logging and control. Pretty cool, 8051 based, with a version of basic in rom= that has scada functions added. The backend servers are just linux systems,= although in a modular backplane for easy replacement. >> >> I have not read much about this tech outside of what we have in house. Ar= e there other historic scada system computers or technologies that are simila= r, easily found on ebay for example? >> >> Ive seen some mention of old allen bradley stuff, but not much notes on ho= w it would be used remotely in the field, as a remote >> terminal unit. >> > Allen-Bradley made a bunch of SCADA gear that was used in > power substations. 5 or so years back there was someone selling Ferranti Argus boards on=20 eBay. They weren't cheap, but I'm kind of kicking myself that I didn't=20 pick up at least one or two. I enquired as to whether he had a card=20 frame and other parts for a complete system and he did for his own=20 testing purposes, but not for sale. He claimed he still had customers=20 running Argus systems for industrial control. I've since learned that up=20 until quite recently there were UK nuclear power stations running Argus=20 500 based control systems. When I worked for British Gas in the early 90s we had an in-house=20 developed TMS9900-based telemetry outstation, which was used to manage=20 remote gas and radio sites =E2=80=94 we had our own national microwave networ= ks=20 and PMR radio etc. =E2=80=94 and this would also relay intruder, fire and UPS= =20 etc. alarms. Outstations connected back to the main SCADA system via a=20 UHF radio and little yagi antenna pointing at the nearest radio site (if=20 not located at one). It's crazy to think now that this would have been a=20 simple protocol, with no security, controlling valves on HP gas lines,=20 huge compressors, big boilers (to heat pressure reduction equipment to=20 prevent it freezing) and all manner of critical infrastructure. The SCADA system was based on a VAXserver 3800 cluster, with VAXstation=20 2000 satellite nodes equipped with 21" displays for the 24/7 grid=20 control team. IIRC the SCADA system was developed by Logica. We had a=20 contract with DEC whereby we'd have a full stock of parts and swap out=20 boards and drives etc. The previous system was a Cossor 9900-based mini with Pertec drives and=20 this languished in a corner of the workshop. I'm not sure if this=20 influenced the telemetry outstation CPU choice, as that would have been=20 developed around the same time. I can't imagine there were many sites=20 running Cossor minis, but IIRC Heathrow Airport in London had a=20 9900-based air traffic control system from them. The previous to that =E2=80=94 and very first =E2=80=94 grid control computer= was also=20 sitting in a garage building. This was an Elliott system and I couldn't=20 say what model (I was more interested in electronics and radio at the=20 time). Sad to say that this and the Cossor were sold for scrap. Another curio from that time was a simple device called, I think, a=20 "radac". This was a magnetic drum audio recorder and tracks would be=20 recorded with the site name and alarm messages. On being triggered it=20 would autodial a number which would be routed to whoever was on call,=20 who would then be greeted by this slightly robotic sounding message.=20 There were still one or two in use at simpler sites. I've since not=20 managed to find any information on this, but have wondered if one could=20 be found, if it might lend itself to being adapted for use as a very=20 small drum store. Andrew --===============4404370799280860716==-- From cisin@xenosoft.com Fri Jul 25 20:28:10 2025 From: Fred Cisin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 13:28:05 -0700 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <22e5dfd9-5ca5-406f-918b-3a9bbcfebaa4@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============5118786774107302271==" --===============5118786774107302271== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer thought some of > their gear was being bought for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be > sold for that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company got in > touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to insert a > "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb that was essentially > the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the > valves slammed shut at the same time.  This info was reported by the > famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. --===============5118786774107302271==-- From wrcooke@wrcooke.net Fri Jul 25 20:39:33 2025 From: wrcooke@wrcooke.net To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 16:39:26 -0400 Message-ID: <18363710.211297.1753475966387@email.ionos.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============2344871816718258769==" --===============2344871816718258769== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On 07/25/2025 4:28 PM EDT Fred Cisin via cctalk w= rote: >=20 >=20 > That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. More details here: https://www.controleng.com/throwback-attack-the-u-s-hits-r= ussia-with-the-first-logic-bomb-attack/ Will --===============2344871816718258769==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 26 00:45:09 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 19:45:00 -0500 Message-ID: <8aac8a10-0cf5-87b3-1d99-4c17c332254c@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: <22e5dfd9-5ca5-406f-918b-3a9bbcfebaa4@alembic.crystel.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8569767116197336781==" --===============8569767116197336781== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/25/25 12:13, cz via cctalk wrote: > Oh is this public now? I remember this, it was hilarious. > Imagine what happens when all your valves go to "open" or > "closed" at once. > Well, it was in the Washington Post (I think) so that is pretty public. > I wonder if this led to the downfall of the Soviet Union. > Just think about how you would feel if you suddenly > realized that all the infrastructure based on chips and > designs that you stole was now 100% suspect and could blow > up at any time. Well, it sure didn't help.  It took them several years to rebuild the pipeline.  But, I think the stinger missile was what ultimately brought them down, as well as "Star Wars" ie. Reagan's SDI. It was said some time ago by a major US computer scientist that their copying the IBM 360 as their BESM 1060 set their computer industry back a full decade. Jon --===============8569767116197336781==-- From elson@pico-systems.com Sat Jul 26 00:54:46 2025 From: Jon Elson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 19:54:37 -0500 Message-ID: <1ad9f819-9cac-1993-1606-0e8a9d5ff1e8@pico-systems.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3626498875723816941==" --===============3626498875723816941== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/25/25 15:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA >> manufacturer thought some of their gear was being bought >> for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for >> that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company >> got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they >> wanted to insert a "feature" into those units. They put >> in a time bomb that was essentially the same as the Y2K >> shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the >> valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was >> reported by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. > > That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. Well, this was during the "cold" war.  This prank moved the meter toward the hot side a bit.  But, the Russians couldn't really complain, they KNEW they were taking a risk to try to circumvent trade restrictions. Get hold of the book Spycraft" by Robert Wallace and H. Keith Melton, there are a bunch of similar stories described there. Jon --===============3626498875723816941==-- From doug@doughq.com Sat Jul 26 01:12:57 2025 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 11:12:40 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <1ad9f819-9cac-1993-1606-0e8a9d5ff1e8@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============3297722036859380079==" --===============3297722036859380079== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit As part of my day job, I have been involved with ethical hacking of some SCADA environments. Typically, they use encrypted radios for communicating with remote sites. The RF side is pretty good. But, once you are at a remote site and you open an outside control box beside some pumps, they almost never have the alarm sensors configured and you can access the data side of the encrypted radio. Once there, everything is like a university network (hard on the outside, soft and squishy inside)! And because it's SCADA, nobody flashes firmware or does other upgrades, because they are scared of the system coming down. So the list of open exploits is massive. Sometimes they even trust network traffic coming in from the SCADA environment because they think it's secure, and it provides a useful launchpad into the corporate network..... Then it gets fun. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Sat, 26 Jul 2025 at 11:00, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/25/25 15:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA > >> manufacturer thought some of their gear was being bought > >> for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for > >> that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company > >> got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they > >> wanted to insert a "feature" into those units. They put > >> in a time bomb that was essentially the same as the Y2K > >> shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the > >> valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was > >> reported by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. > > > > That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. > > Well, this was during the "cold" war. This prank moved the > meter toward the hot side a bit. But, the Russians couldn't > really complain, they KNEW they were taking a risk to try to > circumvent trade restrictions. > > Get hold of the book Spycraft" by Robert Wallace and H. > Keith Melton, there are a bunch of similar stories described > there. > > Jon > --===============3297722036859380079==-- From doug@doughq.com Sat Jul 26 01:15:58 2025 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 11:06:38 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4e5587e3-33fa-d423-a2e1-bad92ce48e00@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4767824467231986159==" --===============4767824467231986159== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable He he, And that, is precisely why the Australian Government advice for managing secure computer systems includes this requirement: Control: ISM-1800; Revision: 0; Updated: Sep-22; Applicability: NC, OS, P, S, TS; Essential Eight: N/A Network devices are flashed with trusted firmware before they are used for the first time. Also, there are a heap of supply chain controls - essentially anything from a US vendor that may have been side shipped through the CIA is treated as being untrusted (cough cough CISCO) and is inspected and re-flashed before use: Control: ISM-1568; Revision: 7; Updated: Jun-25; Applicability: NC, OS, P, S, TS; Essential Eight: N/A Operating systems, applications, IT equipment, OT equipment and services are procured from suppliers that have demonstrated a commitment to the security of their products and services. Control: ISM-1882; Revision: 3; Updated: Jun-25; Applicability: NC, OS, P, S, TS; Essential Eight: N/A Operating systems, applications, IT equipment, OT equipment and services are procured from suppliers that have demonstrated a commitment to transparency for their products and services. Control: ISM-1632; Revision: 6; Updated: Jun-25; Applicability: NC, OS, P, S, TS; Essential Eight: N/A Operating systems, applications, IT equipment, OT equipment and services are procured from suppliers that have a strong track record of maintaining the security of their own systems. if anybody is bored, the entire UNCLASSIFIED Information Security Manual document is available for the public here: https://www.cyber.gov.au/resources-business-and-government/essential-cybersec= urity/ism Full disclaimer - Day job is to help government agencies make sure they have correctly implemented all of those controls :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Sat, 26 Jul 2025 at 01:10, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 7/24/25 23:09, Devin via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Been a long while since i have posted in on here. I usually discuss my > pdp 11 and vax systems. I have decided to pivot my career to scada syatems. > The company i am with has some interesting stuff that goes pretty far back. > Our custom in house tech is a plc pump controller with a radio connection > for data logging and control. Pretty cool, 8051 based, with a version of > basic in rom that has scada functions added. The backend servers are just > linux systems, although in a modular backplane for easy replacement. > > > > I have not read much about this tech outside of what we have in house. > Are there other historic scada system computers or technologies that are > similar, easily found on ebay for example? > > > > Ive seen some mention of old allen bradley stuff, but not much notes on > how it would be used remotely in the field, as a remote > > terminal unit. > > > Allen-Bradley made a bunch of SCADA gear that was used in > power substations. > > I think theirs MIGHT have been the one that was responsible > for the Y2K scare, but it might have been somebody else's unit. > > Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer > thought some of their gear was being bought for the > trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for that under > trade restrictions. Somebody at that company got in touch > with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to > insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb > that was essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew > up the entire pipeline when all the valves slammed shut at > the same time. This info was reported by the famous Jack > Anderson in the Washington Post. > > Jon > > --===============4767824467231986159==-- From mark@markesystems.com Sat Jul 26 01:48:23 2025 From: Mark Moulding To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2025 18:41:26 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============7450254965026936673==" --===============7450254965026936673== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Honeywell made a large number of these systems, which were in use in many industries (oil refining, manufacturing of all types, water utility distribution, etc.).  They were quite expensive, and PLC manufacturers have made great inroads into that market in the past couple of decades.  As a result, some of that equipment is showing up in the surplus market. I found a Honeywell "Orion" console desk being disposed of that I would have loved to take, except that it was truly massive (it must have weighed nearly a thousand pounds!).  It was electrically height adjustable (with memory), had mounts for two very large monitors, integrated lighting, cable management, and rack spaces for physical buttons and lights.  Actually, a lot of their equipment is pretty massive, especially when compared to current-day PLCs. ~~ Mark Moulding --===============7450254965026936673==-- From lyokoboy0@gmail.com Sun Jul 27 03:10:53 2025 From: Devin To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Sat, 26 Jul 2025 23:10:41 -0400 Message-ID: <2A1236E4-87DA-4A6E-AC74-5D4335E0C709@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============4516691122925012336==" --===============4516691122925012336== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thank you for the information. Sadly i wish we were on the "soft and squishy"= security model as you describe it. Ive raised concerns, and its not been mad= e a priority. Most of what we have is very dumb 1200 baud packet modems, all = the stations get polled by a central station and they just reply with sensor = readings and levels. This is changing with some of our newer models of plc te= ch, but of course if its not broke, why replace it? That 15 year old plc is j= ust fine dont change it.... Adoption of our latest more secure hardware is ex= tremely slow. Interesting to hear the security concerns you mentioned. I had gone to defcon, they had a neat little model of a city there you could = try to wreck. The whole city was run by different plc vendors, intentionally = set up insecure, so you could break in, kill the power, overflow wells etc. N= ice illistrative example of whats at stake. --Devin D.. On July 25, 2025 9:12:40 PM EDT, Doug Jackson via cctalk wrote: >As part of my day job, I have been involved with ethical hacking of some >SCADA environments. > >Typically, they use encrypted radios for communicating with remote sites. >The RF side is pretty good. But, once you are at a remote site and you >open an outside control box beside some pumps, they almost never have the >alarm sensors configured and you can access the data side of the encrypted >radio. Once there, everything is like a university network (hard on the >outside, soft and squishy inside)! > >And because it's SCADA, nobody flashes firmware or does other upgrades, >because they are scared of the system coming down. So the list of open >exploits is massive. Sometimes they even trust network traffic coming in >from the SCADA environment because they think it's secure, and it provides >a useful launchpad into the corporate network..... Then it gets fun. > >Kindest regards, > >Doug Jackson > >em: doug(a)doughq.com >ph: 0414 986878 > >Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > > >On Sat, 26 Jul 2025 at 11:00, Jon Elson via cctalk >wrote: > >> On 7/25/25 15:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> >> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA >> >> manufacturer thought some of their gear was being bought >> >> for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for >> >> that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company >> >> got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they >> >> wanted to insert a "feature" into those units. They put >> >> in a time bomb that was essentially the same as the Y2K >> >> shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the >> >> valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was >> >> reported by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. >> > >> > That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. >> >> Well, this was during the "cold" war. This prank moved the >> meter toward the hot side a bit. But, the Russians couldn't >> really complain, they KNEW they were taking a risk to try to >> circumvent trade restrictions. >> >> Get hold of the book Spycraft" by Robert Wallace and H. >> Keith Melton, there are a bunch of similar stories described >> there. >> >> Jon >> --===============4516691122925012336==-- From doug@doughq.com Sun Jul 27 03:30:01 2025 From: Doug Jackson To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 13:29:42 +1000 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <2A1236E4-87DA-4A6E-AC74-5D4335E0C709@gmail.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============6275415937419300814==" --===============6275415937419300814== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yea, It is fascinating the damage that can be caused by a pump ignoring the upper limit switch on a water reservoir, and the subsequent damage to the foundations.... I hope you're able to get your managers to listen.... Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug(a)doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net On Sun, 27 Jul 2025 at 13:10, Devin wrote: > Thank you for the information. Sadly i wish we were on the "soft and > squishy" security model as you describe it. Ive raised concerns, and its > not been made a priority. Most of what we have is very dumb 1200 baud > packet modems, all the stations get polled by a central station and they > just reply with sensor readings and levels. This is changing with some of > our newer models of plc tech, but of course if its not broke, why replace > it? That 15 year old plc is just fine dont change it.... Adoption of our > latest more secure hardware is extremely slow. Interesting to hear the > security concerns you mentioned. > > I had gone to defcon, they had a neat little model of a city there you > could try to wreck. The whole city was run by different plc vendors, > intentionally set up insecure, so you could break in, kill the power, > overflow wells etc. Nice illistrative example of whats at stake. > > --Devin D.. > > > On July 25, 2025 9:12:40 PM EDT, Doug Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk(a)classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> As part of my day job, I have been involved with ethical hacking of some >> SCADA environments. >> >> Typically, they use encrypted radios for communicating with remote sites. >> The RF side is pretty good. But, once you are at a remote site and you >> open an outside control box beside some pumps, they almost never have the >> alarm sensors configured and you can access the data side of the encrypted >> radio. Once there, everything is like a university network (hard on the >> outside, soft and squishy inside)! >> >> And because it's SCADA, nobody flashes firmware or does other upgrades, >> because they are scared of the system coming down. So the list of open >> exploits is massive. Sometimes they even trust network traffic coming in >> from the SCADA environment because they think it's secure, and it provides >> a useful launchpad into the corporate network..... Then it gets fun. >> >> Kindest regards, >> >> Doug Jackson >> >> em: doug(a)doughq.com >> ph: 0414 986878 >> >> Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net >> >> >> >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2025 at 11:00, Jon Elson via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 7/25/25 15:28, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA >>>>> manufacturer thought some of their gear was being bought >>>>> for the trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for >>>>> that under trade restrictions. Somebody at that company >>>>> got in touch with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they >>>>> wanted to insert a "feature" into those units. They put >>>>> in a time bomb that was essentially the same as the Y2K >>>>> shutdown, and blew up the entire pipeline when all the >>>>> valves slammed shut at the same time. This info was >>>>> reported by the famous Jack Anderson in the Washington Post. >>>>> >>>> >>>> That's not just a nasty prank, that is an act of war. >>>> >>> >>> Well, this was during the "cold" war. This prank moved the >>> meter toward the hot side a bit. But, the Russians couldn't >>> really complain, they KNEW they were taking a risk to try to >>> circumvent trade restrictions. >>> >>> Get hold of the book Spycraft" by Robert Wallace and H. >>> Keith Melton, there are a bunch of similar stories described >>> there. >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> --===============6275415937419300814==-- From ccth6600@gmail.com Sun Jul 27 03:53:08 2025 From: Tom Hunter To: cctalk@classiccmp.org Subject: [cctalk] Re: Scada computers and remote terminal units Date: Sun, 27 Jul 2025 11:52:51 +0800 Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <4e5587e3-33fa-d423-a2e1-bad92ce48e00@pico-systems.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="===============8510642587566692684==" --===============8510642587566692684== Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And now we buy all these Chinese made gadgets ... On Fri, 25 July 2025, 11:10=E2=80=AFpm Jon Elson via cctalk, wrote: > On 7/24/25 23:09, Devin via cctalk wrote: > > Greetings, > > > > Been a long while since i have posted in on here. I usually discuss my > pdp 11 and vax systems. I have decided to pivot my career to scada syatems. > The company i am with has some interesting stuff that goes pretty far back. > Our custom in house tech is a plc pump controller with a radio connection > for data logging and control. Pretty cool, 8051 based, with a version of > basic in rom that has scada functions added. The backend servers are just > linux systems, although in a modular backplane for easy replacement. > > > > I have not read much about this tech outside of what we have in house. > Are there other historic scada system computers or technologies that are > similar, easily found on ebay for example? > > > > Ive seen some mention of old allen bradley stuff, but not much notes on > how it would be used remotely in the field, as a remote > > terminal unit. > > > Allen-Bradley made a bunch of SCADA gear that was used in > power substations. > > I think theirs MIGHT have been the one that was responsible > for the Y2K scare, but it might have been somebody else's unit. > > Also, way back, there was a case where a SCADA manufacturer > thought some of their gear was being bought for the > trans-Siberia pipeline, and couldn't be sold for that under > trade restrictions. Somebody at that company got in touch > with a contact at the CIA, and asked if they wanted to > insert a "feature" into those units. They put in a time bomb > that was essentially the same as the Y2K shutdown, and blew > up the entire pipeline when all the valves slammed shut at > the same time. This info was reported by the famous Jack > Anderson in the Washington Post. > > Jon > > --===============8510642587566692684==--