From osi.superboard at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 08:07:49 2020 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 14:07:49 +0100 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives Message-ID: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> A few days ago, it was published on BLOC at CACM that a lost user manual for the Z4 and notes on flutter calculations was found in the ETH Z?rich archives. See: https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/247521-discovery-user-manual-of-the-oldest-surviving-computer-in-the-world/fulltext Zuse Z4, a relay computer of 1945,? however, due to lack of documentation, its functionality was largely unknown. Now a manual for the machine has appeared at ETH Zurich, that was buried in the archives. And this in the digital age ... Thomas From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Oct 1 12:20:17 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:20:17 +0000 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> Message-ID: It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for relays but not of much use for solid state. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of osi.superboard via cctech Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 6:07 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives A few days ago, it was published on BLOC at CACM that a lost user manual for the Z4 and notes on flutter calculations was found in the ETH Z?rich archives. See: https://cacm.acm.org/blogs/blog-cacm/247521-discovery-user-manual-of-the-oldest-surviving-computer-in-the-world/fulltext Zuse Z4, a relay computer of 1945, however, due to lack of documentation, its functionality was largely unknown. Now a manual for the machine has appeared at ETH Zurich, that was buried in the archives. And this in the digital age ... Thomas From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 15:14:37 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 13:14:37 -0700 Subject: Intel Developers' Insight CD-ROM collection archived anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 6:55 PM Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > Sadly neither seems to be among the files I have copied. I could yet > check Intel Dec 1995 Data on Demand discs I happen to have, and do have > here, but they are cumbersome to handle as they use a proprietary format > requiring a DOS app to access, and yet more hassle to get anything > exported (assuming I can recall how I did that many years ago), so it'll > take a little. If you have some Intel "Data on Demand" CD-ROMs it would be nice if .ISO images of those could be captured and uploaded somewhere. Then leave it up to anyone interested to deal with extracting documents from them. I found this document while looking online. It's not clear to me if that is a list of documents that are contained on the December 1995 "Data on Demand" CD-ROMs or if some of those are only available elsewhere. http://alt.ife.tugraz.at/datashts/intel/litguide.pdf From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Oct 1 19:18:05 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 01:18:05 +0100 (BST) Subject: Intel Developers' Insight CD-ROM collection archived anywhere? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2020, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > As one example of something that I was recently unable to find online > > anywhere is a copy of either of these, which might have been available > > on some of the Intel Developers' Insight CD-ROMs: > > 297372 16-Mbit Flash Product Family User?s Manual > > 297508 FLASHBuilder Design Resource Tool > > Those are mentioned in various Intel flash memory datasheets and > > databooks from around the 1995 timeframe. > > Sadly neither seems to be among the files I have copied. I could yet > check Intel Dec 1995 Data on Demand discs I happen to have, and do have > here, but they are cumbersome to handle as they use a proprietary format > requiring a DOS app to access, and yet more hassle to get anything > exported (assuming I can recall how I did that many years ago), so it'll > take a little. That was fun. I have since reconfigured the box a little hardware-wise, but all the configured DOS sofware setup remained the same, so things not quite worked, not at least all of them. I ended up digging out my old serial mouse I had to replace the burnt out IR transmitters in a couple years ago and chasing 5.25" Windows 3.1 installation disks so as to move the mouse to COM2 (COM1 has been since consumed for the serial console used to control the system remotely when it runs Linux, its usual application). Anyway I managed to get Data on Demand apps going, both the DOS one, and also the Windows 3.1 one. The latter is important as it allows one print individual document pages to PostScript, which can then then be further processed for something more useful. Unfortunately the bad news is neither document has been included in the set. I did a little research and I suspect 297372 was one of the paid books; ISTR that was usually the case with documents Intel referred to as "manuals" rather than "databooks", "datasheets", "application notes" or "specification updates". Paid books were naturally not included with documentation available free of charge. The 1995 Flash Memory databook available online: refers to 297372 as: "28F016SA User's Manual" or "28F016SA 16-Mbit FlashFile Memory User's Manual". The part's corresponding datasheet is 290489 and I have revs 3, 4, 5 available if that would help. I could yet check old printed Intel literature guides for any price quoted for the two documents to confirm or deny my suspicion, however just as the Intel Developers' Insight CD-ROMs I have them elsewhere. Now the FLASHBuilder is a software package, so it may yet be there on the Insight CD-ROMs, but it'll have to wait until I get at them unless someone else chimes in. Sorry to help so little if at all. Maciej From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Oct 1 20:41:24 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 18:41:24 -0700 Subject: ancient 5" SMD message Message-ID: 5.25" SMD drives From: David C. Jenner Date: Tue Jun 24 19:28:00 2003 I have complete docs (User's Manual and Reference Manual, both very long) for both of the Seagate drives (the manuals cover both). And a stock of the 1.2GB drives, including power supply and cables. And QD33 Qbus adapters. I'll be glad to entertain offers for these offline, especially trades for PDP-11 equipment. Dave --- wonder if - he is still on the list - still has the manuals From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 1 16:03:07 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 17:03:07 -0400 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> > On Oct 1, 2020, at 1:20 PM, dwight via cctech wrote: > > It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. > The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for relays but not of much use for solid state. > Dwight Where did you find that? I looked through the document that was posted and I don't see that detail in it. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 16:38:19 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:38:19 -0600 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 1, 2020 at 11:54 AM dwight via cctech wrote: > It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. > The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for > relays but not of much use for solid state. > Where is that circuit described? From chentsay at yahoo.com Thu Oct 1 17:28:02 2020 From: chentsay at yahoo.com (Chenshyh Tsay) Date: Thu, 1 Oct 2020 15:28:02 -0700 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? Message-ID: <20201001222804.EE27E273A1@mx1.ezwind.net> Dear Tom, Does your Sun workstation is functional and read QIC -150 cartridge? I have some old 3M 6150 cartridges that was created by Sun Sparc workstation in 2000. One those cartridges, I have some my personal files I like to get them. If you can you read those cartridges, I can pay some money for you? Chen Tsay From ccth6600 at gmail.com Thu Oct 1 22:59:46 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 11:59:46 +0800 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. Does anyone know the reason? Cheers Tom Hunter On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 9:17 AM Jeff Woolsey via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Acoustically, the best tapes were the short-record "stranger" tapes. > > All sorts of interesting noise. I could tell from across the room when > > someone was running the tape section of the Navy audit tests for COBOL > > just by the sounds. > > > MALET was also pretty good, reading and writing a bunch of blocks that > were one frame longer or shorter than the last. Loud rising or falling > tone in the noisy computer room. > > -- > Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com > Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. > "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management > Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire > > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 2 01:40:05 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:40:05 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape > containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. > This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) > Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) > on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. > Does anyone know the reason? > RMS did this too.... if nothing else, it was in the water at Digital. But it would have been faster to access than unaligned buffers... Warner Cheers > Tom Hunter > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 9:17 AM Jeff Woolsey via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Acoustically, the best tapes were the short-record "stranger" tapes. > > > All sorts of interesting noise. I could tell from across the room when > > > someone was running the tape section of the Navy audit tests for COBOL > > > just by the sounds. > > > > > MALET was also pretty good, reading and writing a bunch of blocks that > > were one frame longer or shorter than the last. Loud rising or falling > > tone in the noisy computer room. > > > > -- > > Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com > > Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. > > "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management > > Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire > > > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 2 01:40:05 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:40:05 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape > containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. > This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) > Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) > on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. > Does anyone know the reason? > RMS did this too.... if nothing else, it was in the water at Digital. But it would have been faster to access than unaligned buffers... Warner Cheers > Tom Hunter > > On Fri, Sep 18, 2020 at 9:17 AM Jeff Woolsey via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Acoustically, the best tapes were the short-record "stranger" tapes. > > > All sorts of interesting noise. I could tell from across the room when > > > someone was running the tape section of the Navy audit tests for COBOL > > > just by the sounds. > > > > > MALET was also pretty good, reading and writing a bunch of blocks that > > were one frame longer or shorter than the last. Loud rising or falling > > tone in the noisy computer room. > > > > -- > > Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com > > Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. > > "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management > > Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire > > > > > From jlw at jlw.com Fri Oct 2 02:33:33 2020 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:33:33 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/20 11:40 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > > wrote: > > I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape > containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length > records. > This seems very odd (pun intended).? ?:-) > My theory is that this was a time when the controller interface (either to the tape unit or to the host or both) was 16 bits wide. > > Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record > lenght) > on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 > individual bytes. > Does anyone know the reason? > > > RMS did this too.... if nothing else, it was in the water at Digital. > But it would have been faster to access than unaligned buffers... Recently, Al forwarded me a tape image from Chuck Guzis.? It was claimed to be a NOS 1.4 tape, and that's what it turned out to be.? However, it was one of those tapes that requires new code in my tools to read smoothly.? While I routinely see tapes with a single padding byte, this one had many cases requiring two padding bytes, and some requiring three!? Thus this tape image is not SIMH-compliant. Also, most NOS files had their own ANSI labels; the files were mostly just text programs without their own names, so the ANSI labels helped, but this is unusual for NOS. Summary: 73 HDR1 labels encountered. +++ 73 EOF1/EOV1 labels encountered. +++ 29 single-padded blocks +++. 406 double-padded blocks +++. 24 triple-padded blocks +++. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From jlw at jlw.com Fri Oct 2 02:33:33 2020 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:33:33 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: On 10/1/20 11:40 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > > wrote: > > I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape > containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length > records. > This seems very odd (pun intended).? ?:-) > My theory is that this was a time when the controller interface (either to the tape unit or to the host or both) was 16 bits wide. > > Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record > lenght) > on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 > individual bytes. > Does anyone know the reason? > > > RMS did this too.... if nothing else, it was in the water at Digital. > But it would have been faster to access than unaligned buffers... Recently, Al forwarded me a tape image from Chuck Guzis.? It was claimed to be a NOS 1.4 tape, and that's what it turned out to be.? However, it was one of those tapes that requires new code in my tools to read smoothly.? While I routinely see tapes with a single padding byte, this one had many cases requiring two padding bytes, and some requiring three!? Thus this tape image is not SIMH-compliant. Also, most NOS files had their own ANSI labels; the files were mostly just text programs without their own names, so the ANSI labels helped, but this is unusual for NOS. Summary: 73 HDR1 labels encountered. +++ 73 EOF1/EOV1 labels encountered. +++ 29 single-padded blocks +++. 406 double-padded blocks +++. 24 triple-padded blocks +++. -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 02:52:25 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 00:52:25 -0700 Subject: Datasheet / Info for Motorola SC5330 IC? In-Reply-To: <290c6a22-faf6-d84a-84ed-f6d10f3c84db@sbcglobal.net> References: <290c6a22-faf6-d84a-84ed-f6d10f3c84db@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 7:48 PM Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 9/30/2020 3:40 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Sep 30, 2020 at 2:41 PM Gavin Scott via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> Josh wrote: > >>> https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMpIVXm5draSrWHGMzJg > >> Would these potentially be the sense amp / comparators for the core? I > >> wonder if they were anything like: > >> > >> https://datasheetspdf.com/pdf-file/1092342/Motorola/MC1711L/1 > >> > >> which might have a similar application and take +15 and -7 on L > >> package pins 11 and 4 respectively with ground on pin 12. > >> > >> Being another Motorola design from what looks like a similar time > >> period, I wonder if there could be a similarity in pinouts by some > >> chance? > >> > > It's not an MC1711L based on that pinout. (But I suspect as you do that > > it's part of the sense amp for the core). In particular Pin 1 of the IC > is > > connected to what I believe to be +15V. (It's also hard to tell what > pin 1 > > is, since there's no orientation marker on these... ) Ground is pin > 10. I > > suspect -15V is pin 7. > > > > - Josh > That pinout sounds like the Motorola MC1440 sense amp though the > voltages are different. > Thanks, Bob! That does seem to be the same pinout, at least for the power/ground. I think I've managed to convince myself of the correct pinout for the power connector on this thing. I have a suitable supply and connector on their way... - Josh > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Oct 2 03:20:50 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 01:20:50 -0700 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 2020-Oct-01, at 2:03 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Oct 1, 2020, at 1:20 PM, dwight via cctech wrote: >> >> It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. >> The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for relays but not of much use for solid state. >> Dwight > > Where did you find that? I looked through the document that was posted and I don't see that detail in it. On 2020-Oct-01, at 2:38 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Where is that circuit described? Try a search for "zuse adder", although I haven't gone through the results to see which one provides a 'good' explanation, but it looks like there are explanations out there. If I may, and in the following I hope I'm not conflating things, as it was some years ago I looked at this stuff: The idea is that a set of relays are energized in accordance with the state of the bits of the two operands. This can occur in parallel so is fast (one relay-unit-delay). Contact logic of those relays produces the sum, carry and not-carry for each bit, and the carries are wired sequentially through the contact logic of all bits. There are no intervening relays, and no relay energization is dependant upon a preceding relay in the bit sequence. Thus the entire sum and final carry are available immediately (at electric speed) after the one relay-unit-delay. No mechanical-speed ripple carry. If you try to do this with relays in a more 'obvious' manner you end up with a mechanical ripple delay down the bits. I'm not sure how unique this is to Zuse however. The raw design presented in the Radio-Electronics/Edmund Berkeley Simon articles of 1949/50 presents this scheme, although more complex (unoptimised) in the contact logic. This is post-Zuse of course, but it's a question and investigation as to how the design may have gotten from Zuse to the US/Berkeley in those years. That is, I wonder if it's a design that was arrived at independently in multiple places, or did it all derive from Zuse. When I was figuring-out/recreating the design of 'Simon' some years ago, I optimised the RE/Simon adder design down considerably. That's written up here, in the ALU/adder section: http://madrona.ca/e/simon/imp.html The schematic there presents the idea. Some years later I ran across the Zuse design and found I was one optimisation short of Zuse (IIRC, one more contact could be optimised out and it would match the Zuse design). I've been long meaning to add the Zuse circuit into that page to present the further optimisation. From Krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 2 02:53:53 2020 From: Krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (K. Krause) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 09:53:53 +0200 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0fd08ed3-2797-1982-e425-0c6adb18927b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> On 01.10.20 23:38, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. >> The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for >> relays but not of much use for solid state. >> > Where is that circuit described? The circuit is described in Konrad Zuses life memories. There is an english translation available from the Springer publishing house. Zuse used it's own logic symbols, which he named "abstrakte Schaltgliedlogik", "abstract gating logic", because this logic could be applied to both, the full mecanical Z1 and the later relais machines. I found this carry logic built with transistors in a book from the early 1960. The author named it: killburn adder. It uses a chain of single transistors. You can find a demonstration of the Zuse-adder on: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/virtuell/z1_adder.mp4 (sorry, it's in german only :-( ) Klemens From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 08:11:57 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:11:57 +0100 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: <0fd08ed3-2797-1982-e425-0c6adb18927b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> <0fd08ed3-2797-1982-e425-0c6adb18927b@informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> Message-ID: <019701d698bd$9b504be0$d1f0e3a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of K. Krause via > cctalk > Sent: 02 October 2020 08:54 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the > archives > > > > On 01.10.20 23:38, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote:It is going to need a lot of > contact cleaning. > >> The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast > >> for relays but not of much use for solid state. > >> > > Where is that circuit described? > The circuit is described in Konrad Zuses life memories. There is an english > translation available from the Springer publishing house. > Zuse used it's own logic symbols, which he named "abstrakte > Schaltgliedlogik", "abstract gating logic", because this logic could be applied to > both, the full mecanical Z1 and the later relais machines. > I found this carry logic built with transistors in a book from the early 1960. > The author named it: killburn adder. It uses a chain of single transistors. That would be Tom Kilburn from Manchester who worked on many computers there. > > You can find a demonstration of the Zuse-adder on: > http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/virtuell/z1_adder.mp4 > (sorry, it's in german only :-( ) > > Klemens Dave From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Fri Oct 2 08:25:15 2020 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:25:15 +0200 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> Message-ID: <31c57d42-aba7-a5ff-6bc4-9c26bc528065@ljw.me.uk> On 2/10/20 10:20 am, Brent Hilpert via cctech wrote: > I'm not sure how unique this is to Zuse however. > The raw design presented in the Radio-Electronics/Edmund Berkeley Simon articles of 1949/50 presents this scheme, > although more complex (unoptimised) in the contact logic. > This is post-Zuse of course, but it's a question and investigation as to how the design may have gotten from Zuse to the US/Berkeley in those years. > That is, I wonder if it's a design that was arrived at independently in multiple places, or did it all derive from Zuse. Charles Babbage designed a carry generate/propagate mechanism ("anticipating carriage") for the Analytical Engine which works in much the same manner, though of course mechanically and in Base 10. If the wheel rotated past 9 it set a lever which (later) triggered carry on the next higher wheel. If the wheel was sitting at 9, an interposer meant that any carry in would be transferred to the next higher wheel (as well as rotating the wheel to 0.) This is in contrast to the ripple carry mechanism on the Difference Engine, which he knew restricted the speed. I don't know when his designs were publicised but I doubt they had any influence on Zuse and others of that era. > When I was figuring-out/recreating the design of 'Simon' some years ago, I optimised the RE/Simon adder design down considerably. > That's written up here, in the ALU/adder section: > http://madrona.ca/e/simon/imp.html > The schematic there presents the idea. > Some years later I ran across the Zuse design and found I was one optimisation short of Zuse > (IIRC, one more contact could be optimised out and it would match the Zuse design). > I've been long meaning to add the Zuse circuit into that page to present the further optimisation. Please do! Perhaps you could phrase a description in terms of generate (A.B) and propagate (A+B) -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 08:27:28 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 15:27:28 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Choice of Unix for 11/03 and 11/23+ Systems In-Reply-To: <20200930225805.4D7A218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200930225805.4D7A218C0BE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 1 Oct 2020 at 00:58, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > No, it looks like it uses a different fie-system layout. > > Besides; there's not much point: the big adantage of using V6 is that one can > use the V6 tool-chain to prepare Mini-Unix binaries; XV6 wouldn't allow > that. If all one wants to do is get files in or out, there's already a program > (compilable with gcc, that uses Standard I/O) to read files out of a V6 > filesystem. If there was any good need, it could be extended to write > (although that would be non-trivial). Ah, OK. Sorry for the noise, then. May I ask, for my continuing education: what's a "Mini-Unix binary"? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 2 08:41:13 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:41:13 +0000 Subject: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives In-Reply-To: <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> References: <20b8a1ff-5171-db87-688c-53c92fd4d0b0@gmail.com> , <596BE41E-7B85-4A5C-AB00-8824CC437A07@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'm sorry Paul, I didn't know you were talking about the carry circuit or I'd have replied. I don't recall where I saw the circuit described but with relay contacts, the carry was basically as fast as the sum was created. It was kind of a parallel operation. It didn't require different relay coils to actuate to pass the carry to the next relay stage. It was all just contacts for the carry to propagate. The reason I said it wasn't much use in today's circuits is that you can only series transistors to 3 or4 transistors before things slow down to much compared with driving an inverter. It has a lot to do with the non-zero resistance and the hidden charge stored between two transistors that are turned off. The worst case happens when the entire stack of transistors tries to turn on at the same time. Relay contacts themselves pass data in less than a micro second while relay opening and closing takes milliseconds. Designing with relays takes a different thinking. With NO and NC contacts, each coil can be thought of as a buffer or an inverter at the same time. Stacking contacts has almost no delay. One also needs to swap thinking positive and negative logic going through the circuit if it has any complexity, for if a coil is or isn't driven. Dwight ________________________________ From: Paul Koning Sent: Thursday, October 1, 2020 2:03 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: osi.superboard Subject: Re: Zuse Z4 - Oldest Surviving Computer in the World - Lost in the archives > On Oct 1, 2020, at 1:20 PM, dwight via cctech wrote: > > It is going to need a lot of contact cleaning. > The one thing I like is the carry design the Zuse used. Really fast for relays but not of much use for solid state. > Dwight Where did you find that? I looked through the document that was posted and I don't see that detail in it. paul From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Oct 2 10:17:54 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:17:54 -0700 Subject: ancient 5" SMD message In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4F6E8CCA-3774-41C8-ACBF-741D4708F747@avanthar.com> There is a name from the past. That?s a good question Al, when was the last time anyone heard from Dave? Zane > On Oct 1, 2020, at 6:41 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > 5.25" SMD drives > > > From: David C. Jenner > Date: Tue Jun 24 19:28:00 2003 > > I have complete docs (User's Manual and Reference Manual, both > very long) for both of the Seagate drives (the manuals cover > both). And a stock of the 1.2GB drives, including power supply > and cables. And QD33 Qbus adapters. I'll be glad to entertain > offers for these offline, especially trades for PDP-11 equipment. > > Dave > > --- > > wonder if > > - he is still on the list > - still has the manuals From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 2 10:40:26 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 08:40:26 -0700 Subject: ancient 5" SMD message In-Reply-To: <4F6E8CCA-3774-41C8-ACBF-741D4708F747@avanthar.com> References: <4F6E8CCA-3774-41C8-ACBF-741D4708F747@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <239abf16-99fb-4912-892e-18e3ee6feeb4@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/20 8:17 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > There is a name from the past. That?s a good question Al, when was the last time anyone heard from Dave? kinda grasping at straws at this point Eric Smith has been looking for info on the SMD Elite drives for over 10 years. The non-SCSI Elite series were only around from 89-92 I was interested in them as the smallest physical example of an IPI interfaced drive. IPI didn't make much sense after SCSI-2 came out. Probably the biggest user of the IPI interface was IBM midrange machines (S36-AS400) The Sun IPI Elite drives are really cheap on eBay, and are being incorrectly advertised as SCSI. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 2 12:20:24 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:20:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Choice of Unix for 11/03 and 11/23+ Systems Message-ID: <20201002172024.AE4A918C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > for my continuing education: what's a "Mini-Unix binary"? Two possible meanings; a system image for a Mini-Unix system (buildable under V6 with the standard V6 tool-chain of C-compiler/assembler/linker), and user command binaries (buildable with the C-compiler/assembler, but needing a special Mini-Unix linker - written in C, and compilable/runnable under V6). I've done both in my recent Mini-Unix work. (For those are are not familiar with Mini-Unix and LSX, they are both V6 Unix variants lobotomized to run on PDP-11's without memory management: -11/05's, etc. I'm currently working on getting Mini-Unix to run on an -11/03; not a major change, but not a model supported 'out of the box'. LSX is more heavily cut down, so it will run on even smaller systems - I seem to recollect 20KB or so - but that's not that useful nowadays, with semi-conductor memory being fairly common.) Noel From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 12:46:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 10:46:42 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> Message-ID: <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> On 10/1/20 11:40 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > >> I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape >> containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. >> This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) >> Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) >> on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. >> Does anyone know the reason? On the .TAP files that I provide to customers, I ignore the 16-bit granularity and supply odd-length records as appropriate. My own take is that the original was intended for DEC 16/32 bit hardware. There are other systems that make it impossible to write an odd-length record. More interesting are the 36-bit systems writing 7 track tapes (e.g. Univac 1100), where a tape record has to be a multiple of 18 bits/3 "bytes" long. An ANSI label record, for example, is 81 "bytes". Similar situations exist for 9 track tapes written on nominally 6-bit systems. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 13:13:27 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:13:27 +0200 Subject: [TUHS] Fwd: Choice of Unix for 11/03 and 11/23+ Systems In-Reply-To: <20201002172024.AE4A918C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201002172024.AE4A918C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 19:20, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > (For those are are not familiar with Mini-Unix and LSX, they are both V6 Unix > variants lobotomized to run on PDP-11's without memory management: Aha! Like this? https://hackaday.com/2018/06/03/its-unix-on-a-microcontroller/ http://www.jcwolfram.de/projekte/mxe11_en/main.php -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Oct 2 13:51:44 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:51:44 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> > On Oct 2, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/1/20 11:40 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape >>> containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. >>> This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) >>> Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) >>> on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. >>> Does anyone know the reason? > > On the .TAP files that I provide to customers, I ignore the 16-bit > granularity and supply odd-length records as appropriate. You can certainly create tape container files like that, but those are not TAP format. Instead, they are E11 format. You should call them by their proper name. paul From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Oct 2 14:01:41 2020 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:01:41 +0100 Subject: Old Terminals In-Reply-To: <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: I've always had a weakness for terminals. I have a question, are all those RJ-11 style keyboards interchangeable? I have an ICL M8 with a bad key... it's only the scroll lock... but still. There is so little information about these things that I've been able to find... From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Oct 2 14:17:32 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 12:17:32 -0700 Subject: Old Terminals In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1057E55E-09A2-4571-924A-CF07D7B42282@eschatologist.net> On Oct 2, 2020, at 12:01 PM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > > I've always had a weakness for terminals. > > I have a question, are all those RJ-11 style keyboards interchangeable? No, virtually every manufacturer had its own signaling and protocols, and in a lot of cases individual *models* have their own signaling and protocols. You can probably find help fixing your ICL M8 here, it should be repairable. ? Chris From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 14:26:54 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 12:26:54 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> On 10/2/20 11:51 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Oct 2, 2020, at 1:46 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/1/20 11:40 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >>> On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 12:05 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I have never figured out why Bob Supnik defined the magnetic tape >>>> containers (TAP files) with the one byte padding for odd length records. >>>> This seems very odd (pun intended). :-) >>>> Even on a machine which couldn't write 32 bit numbers (the record lenght) >>>> on odd boundaries you could write the 32 bit number as 4 individual bytes. >>>> Does anyone know the reason? >> >> On the .TAP files that I provide to customers, I ignore the 16-bit >> granularity and supply odd-length records as appropriate. > > You can certainly create tape container files like that, but those are not TAP format. Instead, they are E11 format. You should call them by their proper name. Actually, they're neither. I append the metadata after the EOI marker on mine. Doesn't seem to bother the emulators. This is basically the problem with all of the container file formats that I've seen. They seem to think that the data alone is sufficient to describe an object. Quite often, a simple paper label is more informative than a bunch of bits--indeed, it may represent the Rosetta Stone when it comes down to figuring out what's what. Even the diagnostic options are very weak. For example, on many platforms, it's possible to identify which (vertical) frames contain parity or other errors. There's no option for reporting this level of detail in any of the container files that I've seen. I append a log of the reading process as part of the metadata. Similarly, I've handled tapes where the density changes between files. Where to report this? Most container files don't even make a provision for reporting parity (NRZI tapes). On 7 track, the encoding schemes between even and odd parity can be quite different. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 2 15:13:25 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:13:25 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <03bef6e8-95cc-b286-8f42-3ad4ea4891b7@bitsavers.org> On 10/2/20 12:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > This is basically the problem with all of the container file formats > that I've seen. They seem to think that the data alone is sufficient to > describe an object. Quite often, a simple paper label is more > informative than a bunch of bits the joys of tacking bags onto legacy container formats .tpc begat Wilson .tap which begat Supnik .tap and Bordynuik .tap none of which can be identified without heuristics during reading Bordynuik's at least had some provisions for reporting a bad block, as I'm sure yours does. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 2 15:42:22 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:42:22 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 1:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Actually, they're neither. I append the metadata after the EOI marker > on mine. Doesn't seem to bother the emulators. > Some programs (but probably very few) that use various so-called .tap files assume that they can seek to the EOF (of the container file) and read records backwards (supported by lengths being at both ends of blocks in the container). Tacking metadata on the end breaks that. I'm not criticizing, mind you. It's just something that people may need to be aware of. The .tap file formats are horrible. Originally there was at least the virtue of simplicity, but because they've diverged we don't even have that. Al wrote: > Bordynuik's at least had some provisions for reporting a bad block, > as I'm sure yours does. > Aeons ago when I was doing stuff with tape images, I made a proposal for representing bad blocks of either known or unknown length. I don't know whether anything other than some of my own unpublished code adopted that particular proposal. IIRC, I proposed using a record length of 0xffffffff to designate any kind of "metadata" record, with the real length of the metadata record in the next word in on both ends (to still support backwards reading), and the third word at the beginning only being a tag of what kind of metadata it was, etc. Of course, that scheme breaks programs that use tape images but don't expect enormous or "negative" record lengths. I contributed to the morass by still calling my files .tap files. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Oct 2 15:51:11 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 13:51:11 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/20 1:42 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Of course, that scheme breaks programs that use tape images but don't > expect enormous or "negative" record lengths. Those would already be broken with Bob's use of large negative numbers for physical end of tape and 'bad block is here' (you don't get to know how big that bad block was, so that is hell with tapes with variable-length records, grumble..) But for all the people who get clean reads off their tapes, none of this is an issue. I wish I was so lucky. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 16:26:36 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 14:26:36 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <14444db4-7e87-950a-def7-f9d2eb9231ad@jlw.com> <7f4a173d-e0cf-1a9e-bdc3-0055a26917d2@sydex.com> <4B149512-E798-43F5-AB6F-7D5DF1C52E44@comcast.net> <6f9d9f35-fc2b-fd48-48bb-386ffbfb0aa4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/2/20 1:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 1:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > wrote: > > Actually, they're neither.? I append the metadata after the EOI marker > on mine.? ?Doesn't seem to bother the emulators. > > > Some programs (but probably very few) that use various so-called .tap > files assume that they can seek to the EOF (of the container file) and > read records backwards (supported by lengths being at both ends of > blocks in the container). Tacking metadata on the end breaks that. I'm > not criticizing, mind you. It's just something that people may need to > be aware of. Metadata records tacked on after the EOI marker are appended with the appropriate preamble-postamble length indicators, so this doesn't break the scheme (much). --Chuck From connork at connorsdomain.com Fri Oct 2 21:58:09 2020 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (Connor Krukosky) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 22:58:09 -0400 Subject: PSA to SparcBook 2 Users In-Reply-To: <1072AC35-D3AD-4ED2-AB2C-1D0D5A8F913B@gmail.com> References: <1072AC35-D3AD-4ED2-AB2C-1D0D5A8F913B@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yea I received a Sparcbook 2 and saw this damage knock some SMD components off the entire OTHER SIDE of the board from the leaky cap. Got it going again with cleaning and repair work though. I had a SB3 fail in its power supply module due to shorted tantrums on the output side of the supply which cooked the coil and switching driver chip. Luckily most of these components were available from digikey at the time and I rebuilt that entire supply rail and the system came up OK. -Connor K On 9/22/2020 14:45, null via cctalk wrote: > No, this applies only to Tadpole Series 2 and potentially Series 1 machines (although I have not observed the latter) > > Series 3(/3000) are completely different internally. Your SB3000 is safe- at least from this failure mode. > >> On Sep 22, 2020, at 11:02, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> ?You flush electronics with Indian Pale Ale? Too many TLAs. >> >> This isn't a problem on the model of SparcBook you sold me, is it? >> >>> On 9/22/20 10:53 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: >>> There is a 1000uf 10v cap on the main logic board just above the Bt display controller. >>> It is leaking... a lot. (4/4 samples so far) >>> Go replace it, flush the area and scrub the with 99.9% IPA. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 22:37:06 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 20:37:06 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <176cc91f-2ca6-6bfe-3703-5ee22ad881e5@sydex.com> On 10/2/20 8:08 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 8:38 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech > > wrote: > > In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? > > I'm not aware of any. > > > Teledisk? > Heh, but no--there's no way to include a photo and other supporting metadata--just a few lines of commentary. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 2 23:21:17 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 22:21:17 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <176cc91f-2ca6-6bfe-3703-5ee22ad881e5@sydex.com> References: <176cc91f-2ca6-6bfe-3703-5ee22ad881e5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 9:37 PM Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 10/2/20 8:08 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 8:38 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech > > > wrote: > > > > In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container > files? > > > > I'm not aware of any. > > > > > > Teledisk? > > > > > Heh, but no--there's no way to include a photo and other supporting > metadata--just a few lines of commentary. > Oh, that kind of meta data. Derp.i was thinking track, sector number, head info... Warner > From jlw at jlw.com Fri Oct 2 20:29:09 2020 From: jlw at jlw.com (Jeff Woolsey) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 18:29:09 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On 10/2/20 1:42 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > >/Of course, that scheme breaks programs that use tape images but don't />/expect enormous or "negative" record lengths. / > Those would already be broken with Bob's use of large negative numbers for physical end of > tape and 'bad block is here' (you don't get to know how big that bad block was, so that is > hell with tapes with variable-length records, grumble..) 0xFFFFFFFF is end-of-medium. I've encountered only a few tapes with this marker. 0xFFFFFFFE is an erase gap.? I've never encountered one, perhaps because I treat all 0xFFnnnnnn as EOM, even though they are reserved. 0x00000000 is a tapemark. The above three are dataless. 0x80nnnnnn is a bad block (Medium Error) of size nnnnnn > 0. Woe to me when my tape drive returns a zero-length block for those, so sometimes I cobble up a BAD0 label and surround it with these Medium Errors.? Heroics can ask my tape drive what happened (to distinguish it from a normal tapemark). I could suggest that other values for the first byte might be used for metadata, but I think there are too many readers and existing images to let that work.? I just put metadata in the same directory, but it can get misplaced easily, and nothing limits a directory to just one tape image.? Not optimal. > > But for all the people who get clean reads off their tapes, none of this is an issue. > I wish I was so lucky. I can't believe that anyone never gets a clean read from any of their tapes; most of mine have been clean.? But not all of them... -- Jeff Woolsey {{woolsey,jlw}@jlw,first.last@{gmail,jlw}}.com Nature abhors straight antennas, clean lenses, and empty storage. "Delete! Delete! OK!" -Dr. Bronner on disk space management Card-sorting, Joel. -Crow on solitaire From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 2 21:38:32 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 19:38:32 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? I'm not aware of any. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 2 22:08:00 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 2 Oct 2020 21:08:00 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 2, 2020, 8:38 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? > > I'm not aware of any. > Teledisk? > From boris at summitclinic.com Sat Oct 3 02:10:08 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 02 Oct 2020 23:10:08 -0800 Subject: HP 3000, APL\3000, the HP 2641A APL Display Station, and stuff. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201003071016.D396327455@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for putting this out. Not a system I'm familiar with but did play around briefly with APL in 1969 on an IBM 360. Very nice emulator and managed to get it up and running once found an emulated HP graphics terminal. Pleasantly surprised that emulator CPU useage was very small (unlike BasiliskII which runs one CPU core at 100% when I run my old Mac programs) and played adventure came that came with it. Last time I played an adventure game of that nature was in 1981 and remember thinking how neat it was back then. >As some people here are aware, I have spent probably too much time this summer >hacking on J. David Bryan's excellent Classic HP 3000 simulator and trying to >build up the ultimate classic 1980s HP 3000 system (virtually speaking). > >I started with the MPE V/R KIT that's widely available and expanded >that into a >5x120MB HP 7925 disc system and configured things like the system directory >size and all the system tables to make a fully functional multi-user server. > >I then set about collecting as much old MPE software as I could find, which >included Keven Miller's collection of the old Contributed Software >Library tapes >which were conveniently available in SIMH format. This is a huge trove of cool >stuff including most of the classic mini/mainframe games (Dungeon, Warp, >Advent, etc., etc.) and even a little game called DRAGONS that was written in >1980 by a guy named Bruce Nesmith when he was in college and he used it >to get a job at TSR and went on to write parts of many classic D&D products >and eventually landed at Bethesda where among other things he was the >lead designer for another little game called The Elder Scrolls V: >Skyrim. I was >able to track Bruce down and give him a copy of the system with his 40 year >old game running on it. The CSL tapes also include other amazing goodies >that people developed and gave away over the years, including a FORTH and >LISP, as well as most of the system and utility programs that people used to >run their 3000 shops. It's quite fun to explore. > >I was curious how far we could push the 3000 simulator, so I hacked all >the memory bank registers to be six bits instead of four bits, and we >now have a simulated HP 3000 Series III that supports 8MB of memory, 4x >more than any physical system ever did. I started trying to do the same thing >for giant disc drives, but MPE turned out to have too much knowledge of >what the supported disc models look like to make it practical. Bummer. > >Since I met my first HP 3000 in 1980 (40 years ago this month), people would >talk about what was probably the most rare and exotic HP software subsystem >ever produced, APL\3000. APL on the 3000 was a project started at HP Labs >in Palo Alto in the early 1970s. They were likely motivated by the success IBM >was having with mainframe APL timesharing services. This would be the first >full APL implementation on a "small" (non-mainframe) computer. It would be the >first APL with a compiler (and a byte-code virtual machine to execute the >compiled code), it would include an additional new language APLGOL (APL >with ALGOL like structured control statements), and it managed to support >APL workspaces of unlimited size through a clever set of system CPU >microcode extensions that provided a flat 32-bit addressing capability (on >a 16-bit machine where every other language was limited to a 64KB data >segment). > >Because APL required these extra special CPU instructions that you got as >a set of ROM chips when you bought the $15,000 APL\3000, and because >APL ultimately failed as a product (another story in itself) and thus HP never >implemented these instructions on their later HP 3000 models, I never saw >it run on a real HP 3000, but over the years we talked about wouldn't it be >cool to find a way to get APL running again. > >With assistance and moral support from Stan Sieler and Frank McConnell >and others, I was ultimately able to reverse-engineer the behavior of the >undocumented ten magic APL CPU instructions needed to get it to run and >implement them as part of the MPE unimplemented instruction trap and now >APL\3000 runs again for the first time in ~35 years. Somewhat ironically, this >implementation method could have been used back in 1980 as I didn't >actually end up changing the hardware simulation code at all, and it should >also run (if a bit slowly) on any physical classic architecture 3000. > >So that was cool and all, but what is APL without all the weird overstruck >characters and whatnot? APL\3000 supports the use of plain ASCII terminals >through blecherous trigraphs like "QD for the APL quad character, but this >is hardly satisfying. So the quest was on to find a solution. Back >in 1976 when >APL\3000 was released, there was a companion HP terminal in the 264x line, >the HP 2641A APL Display Station, which was basically an HP 2645A with >special firmware and APL character set ROMs that supported all the APL >special characters as well as overstrikes (the terminal would take >XY >and lookup to see if it had a character to represent Y overstriking X and if >so it would show that on the display, and if that got transmitted to >the host it >would convert it back into the original three character overstriking >sequence). > >I briefly looked into the idea of hacking QCTerm or Putty or something, but >then I found out from Curious Chris that an HP 2645A emulator already existed >in the MAME emulator system! Since the '41 is basically just a '45 >with modified >firmware, and Bitsavers had both the character set ROMs as well as the >firmware ROMs from a '41, this sounded like it might be easy! There was a snag >however in that the firmware ROM images that were allegedly from a '41 turned >out to actually be from an ordinary '45. But we did have the >character sets and >one of the ROMs from the second CTL PCA. I put out a call on the Vintage HP >list to see if anyone might possibly have a lead on an actual HP 2641A, and >Kyle Owen responded that not only did he have one he could also dump the >ROMs for us. So a few days and a few hacks to F. Ulivi's MAME hp2645 driver >later we now have a functioning MAME HP 2641A terminal emulation, so you >can experience APL\3000 in all its original glory. I bundled up a somewhat >stripped down MAME along with my turnkey 3000 setup so both emulated HP >terminals are just a couple clicks away. > >So that's how I spent my summer vacation (who am I kidding, it's >pretty much all >vacation these days). It has been a lot of fun revisiting all this old >3000 stuff as >well as the numerous people I talked to along the way including some of those >who were around at APL\3000's birth (before my time). It was rather a lot of >work so I'd like to feel it might be useful to someone in the future >who is digging >into this part of history. Because of all the usual reasons, I don't >plan on hosting >it permanently until and unless we maybe someday get the licensing worked out >(the 50th anniversary of the HP 3000 will be in a couple years so maybe people >will get interested again then) but I will offer it up here to my >fellow computer >history nuts if you want to help ensure that it doesn't vanish if I >get run over by a >bus or something :) > >This is a simulated HP 3000 Series III (circa 1980) running MPE V/R >(circa 1986) >with 8MB of memory, all the language subsystems (APL, BASIC, BASICOMP, RPG, >FORTRAN (66), SPL, PASCAL, COBOL (68), COBOL II (74)), 20 years of users group >contributed software, many classic historical computer games, etc. Software >archaeologists can get lost in here for years. Oh, and thanks to Dave >Elward, the >HP 2000 Timesharing BASIC contributed library is even included (kinda sorta >converted to MPE BASIC) for good measure. This is a streamlined >turnkey edition >that's ready to run out of the box with no assembly required (all >batteries are included). >Currently, I only provide executables for Windows (sorry) but am in >the process of >getting the 3000 simulator changes (for large memory support) and the new MAME >hp2641 driver back upstream. Instructions and further details can be >found in the >README.txt hint book for this adventure. 94MB Google Drive link: > >https://drive.google.com/file/d/1bmXvHkBLbUeLAid73EJ4H1yQ2uwXQuRu > >Gavin > >P.S. I'm giving a talk on the history of APL\3000 and its resurrection >to the ACM APLBUG >group in a couple weeks. If anyone is interested I can provide more >details when I have >them. From lars at nocrew.org Sat Oct 3 03:05:17 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 08:05:17 +0000 Subject: General Turtle TT2500 Message-ID: <7wr1qfvio2.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, I'm making a software emulator for the General Turtle TT2500. Does anyone have any information about it? It's hard to come by. Here's what I have learned: It's a custom TTL design by Marvin Minsky et al, with 64K 16-bit memory and 4K 16-bit control store. It has two displays attached, one for vector graphics, and one for text. There is a UART for talking to a host (presumably running Logo), and a keyboard. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 3 05:20:52 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 03:20:52 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/2/20 7:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? > Digtial archivists seem to be using LoC BagIt, which essentially is a zip file of a directory https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BagIt I'd have to check with our digital archivist to see what metadata files are included in CHM's archival bags. Invention of your own container will be doomed to failure due to lack of adoption. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 3 05:22:44 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 03:22:44 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/3/20 3:20 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/2/20 7:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? >> > > Digtial archivists seem to be using > LoC BagIt, which essentially is a zip file of a directory > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BagIt > > I'd have to check with our digital archivist to see what metadata files > are included in CHM's archival bags. > > Invention of your own container will be doomed to failure due to lack > of adoption. > we use archivamatica for archiving https://www.archivematica.org/en/docs/archivematica-1.6/user-manual/transfer/bags/ From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 3 10:33:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 08:33:50 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <23e1dfce-1178-5da9-a513-4170930de37b@sydex.com> On 10/3/20 3:20 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/2/20 7:38 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> In fact, is there any standard for floppy disk metadata container files? >> > > Digtial archivists seem to be using > LoC BagIt, which essentially is a zip file of a directory > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BagIt > > I'd have to check with our digital archivist to see what metadata files > are included in CHM's archival bags. > > Invention of your own container will be doomed to failure due to lack > of adoption. The Bag-it scheme is interesting in that it can be used to hold data and metadata in an XML-style container, be the object a floppy disk or a spear point, but where are the standards for digital media for *what* must be preserved? It seems to me that professional digital archivists concern themselves with preserving content, but have few resources to determine context. The number of tapes that I've handled that bear only a tape number at best is alarming. Various government warehouses still have acres of the stuff. Labels dry up and fall off and aren't replaced (that goes for floppy media also). Nobody is left to interpret what the bits mean, much less the context in which they were created. In that sense, my hat's off to the "living history" transcribers who preserve context, but not necessarily content. A personal concern as I'm forming stronger relationships with the medical community in my dotage is that vast amounts of information will inevitably be lost in any case. In particular, consider a government project where several hundred millions of 1970s dollars were spent by the government, yet almost nothing other than a few papers survives. Those involved with intimate knowledge are inexorably dying off as the community ages out. The lessons of "what did we learn form all of this?" will be gone forever. Sometimes it seems that we spend as many resources in forgetting as we spend trying to remember. --Chuck From will.senn at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 10:38:38 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 10:38:38 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations Message-ID: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> All, I've been delving into ancient IBM PC-DOS... 1.0, 2.0 and have landed on 2.10 as the experience I'm going to hang out with for a while. It's stable in QEMU and 86Box and I am able to run MASM 1.0, 2.0 and Pascal 1.0 and 2.0. 86Box is more true to old-school boxes, but qemu runs on my Mac, so I like using Qemu. But, Pascal seems to prefer 86Box, it prints weird characters in qemu w/writeln(), which is annoying, but I'm doing more assembly and BASIC at this point, so Qemu's emulation is sufficient. What I've got working: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 - seems to be working fine in both (installed to fixed disk) IBM Macro Assembler 1.0 and 2.0 - seems to be working fine in both (installed to fixed disk) IBM Pascal 1.0 and 2.0 - hokey in both, tricky about the floppy being present, regardless of debug fix, and doesn't like QEMU. QEdit 2.1 - works great in both (installed to fixed disk) I found some good books on BASIC, Pascal, and Assembly: Albrecht, 1990. Teach Yourself GWBASIC. (covers later BASICA sufficiently) Pardee, 1984. The Waite Group Pascal Primer for the IBM PC. (Great book) Metcalf and Sugiyama, 1985. Compute!'s Beginner's Guide to Machine Language on the IBM PC & PCjr. (Excellent book) Lafore, 1984. The Waite Group Assembly Language Primer for the IBM PC & XT. (Wordy, but good) Pretty much everything I've programmed works fine. Graphics stuff is better in 86Box where I can control the monitor that's attached, but no complaints. Some questions I have related to the exploration: 1. I'm curious if there are other folks out there doing similar stuff? 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other methods? 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone know where I can find one online? 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what are the advantages? 6. I'm happy to post here, but if y'all know of a more appropriate venue, please suggest it? Thanks, Will -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From new_castle_j at yahoo.com Sat Oct 3 11:14:22 2020 From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 16:14:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Concurrent Controls Multiuser DOS References: <359215356.1550573.1601741662694.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <359215356.1550573.1601741662694@mail.yahoo.com> I'm researching Multiuser DOS out of my own interest. A version made by Concurrent Controls specifically. However, I have been unable to find documentation on it to satisfy my curiosity on how it works and how it is configured. They must have somehow broken the 640K barrier or virtualized each user session, I'd like to understand it better. What were it's limitations, I'm guessing that each user didn't get direct access to hardware. Anyone out there have a document or experience with it? Thanks, Jonathan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Oct 3 11:44:26 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 09:44:26 -0700 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/20 8:38 AM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > Some questions I have related to the exploration: > > 1. I'm curious if there are other folks out there doing similar stuff? > 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is > this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other > methods? > 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I > couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM > Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone > know where I can find one online? > 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM > PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? > 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what > are the advantages? > 6. I'm happy to post here, but if y'all know of a more appropriate > venue, please suggest it? 1 and 6:The folks at vcfed.org are far more involved into things PC; I would recommend that venue. 2. Interrupt 21 is the most hardware-independent way to perform console output. It is neither the fastest nor most flexible. Most MSDOS programs needing fast or full-screen control revert to writing into display memory directly, which is a bit more involved, but worth the effort. There are also INT 10h calls, but again, for text output, they can be very slow. 3. Can't address that one--I have 1.0 and 4.0 and later in my library; I'm not sure if I have the "gap" ones. MASM 1.0 was a huge mess; the product really didn't start to mature until 4.0. 4. MS-DOS 2.x had numerous variations, such as that employed for the NEC PC98 series of machines, as well as numerous other non-IBM PC platforms. As far as I know, PC-DOS was configured only to be compatible with IBM's own product line. 5. 3.3 was very popular in the day; one thing that it provided was a way to avoid some of the storage limitations of earlier versions. It also introduced quite a number of API additions (see Ralf Brown's interrupt list for details). --Chuck From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Oct 3 12:14:12 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:14:12 +0000 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Regarding #4, if you look at the releases source code for DOS 2.0 you will see compilation switches for PCD and MSD. I would need to look again but some were control code things, plus sign-on messages. I know IBM shipped different tools than MS too. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 12:44:26 PM To: Will Senn via cctalk Subject: Re: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations On 10/3/20 8:38 AM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > Some questions I have related to the exploration: > > 1. I'm curious if there are other folks out there doing similar stuff? > 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is > this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other > methods? > 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I > couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM > Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone > know where I can find one online? > 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM > PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? > 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what > are the advantages? > 6. I'm happy to post here, but if y'all know of a more appropriate > venue, please suggest it? 1 and 6:The folks at vcfed.org are far more involved into things PC; I would recommend that venue. 2. Interrupt 21 is the most hardware-independent way to perform console output. It is neither the fastest nor most flexible. Most MSDOS programs needing fast or full-screen control revert to writing into display memory directly, which is a bit more involved, but worth the effort. There are also INT 10h calls, but again, for text output, they can be very slow. 3. Can't address that one--I have 1.0 and 4.0 and later in my library; I'm not sure if I have the "gap" ones. MASM 1.0 was a huge mess; the product really didn't start to mature until 4.0. 4. MS-DOS 2.x had numerous variations, such as that employed for the NEC PC98 series of machines, as well as numerous other non-IBM PC platforms. As far as I know, PC-DOS was configured only to be compatible with IBM's own product line. 5. 3.3 was very popular in the day; one thing that it provided was a way to avoid some of the storage limitations of earlier versions. It also introduced quite a number of API additions (see Ralf Brown's interrupt list for details). --Chuck From bdweb at mindspring.com Sat Oct 3 15:54:45 2020 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 16:54:45 -0400 Subject: Pro 350 Print Set In-Reply-To: <762e5e65-be11-119d-d17f-45c5ec3518ef@9track.net> References: <762e5e65-be11-119d-d17f-45c5ec3518ef@9track.net> Message-ID: > On 20/10/2019 17:27, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > >/Manx lists MP-01394-00 as the Field Maintenance Print Set for the DEC />/Professional 350. I can't find this online and I was wondering if > anyone has />/a scan of it by any chance? />//>//The Field Maintenance Print Set for the Professional 380 is available on > Bitsavers along with some technical manuals for the Professional 350: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/ > > This might give you at least part of what you need. > > Matt Hello Rob, I know this is an old, old thread (I don't know what the etiquette about dead threads is) but you might like to know that I bought a copy of MP-01394 (the DEC Professional 350 Field Maintenance Print Set) and scanned it.? Al Kossow was kind enough to post a compressed version on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/MP-01394_PC350_Field_Maintenance_Print_Set_.pdf --Bjoren From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Oct 3 16:02:05 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Sat, 03 Oct 2020 14:02:05 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <23e1dfce-1178-5da9-a513-4170930de37b@sydex.com> References: <23e1dfce-1178-5da9-a513-4170930de37b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2ca9d84effc28ad8b22941bc72eb44562c461d96.camel@shiresoft.com> On Sat, 2020-10-03 at 08:33 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > In particular, consider a government project where several hundred > millions of 1970s dollars were spent by the government, yet almost > nothing other than a few papers survives. Those involved with > intimate > knowledge are inexorably dying off as the community ages out. The > lessons of "what did we learn form all of this?" will be gone > forever. > > Sometimes it seems that we spend as many resources in forgetting as > we > spend trying to remember. > I couldn't agree more...and it's not just governments (at all levels) but companies as well. In the mid-90's I worked on the IBM Microkernel project (was one of the original 6 people who started it). It eventually grew to 100's of people and morf'd into Workplace OS. I still have some of the printed documentation from that project but have long since lost a set of CDs that contained not only the PDFs for those documents (the source was in FrameMaker) but also all of the IBM microkernel source *and* build environment and tools. And that was only a part of the project...there were all of the personality neutral software as well as the various OS personalities (including AIX and OS/2). I seriously doubt if any of that survived in any form because of the way that the project was shutdown. The last estimate of the cost to IBM of the project was over $2,000,000,000 (in 1995 dollars). To my knowledge not much survived. What a waste. TTFN - Guy From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Oct 3 16:07:48 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 14:07:48 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 2020, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is this > typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other methods? For simple stuff, Int21H works and is portable to anything running MS-DOS. Int10H is less portable. Not as commonly used. If you need SPEED, which all commercial software perceived a need for, then you need to determine WHERE video memory is (segment B000H for MDA, segment B800H for CGA, with TEXT modes of EGA/VGA also using those), and put bytes/words directly into video memory. REP MOVSW was generally the quickest way to put up a screenful of stuff (avoid segment over-ride because REP MOVSW lost that if an interrupt occured in mid transfer) Keyboard input could be done with Int21H, Int16h, or accessing memory in the BIOS segment. > 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I couldn't > find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM Macro > Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone know where > I can find one online? MASM manual??!? MASM 5.0 was the first version to have documentation that a sane person could say was adequate. The MASM 5.00 manualS were pretty usable for the earlier MASM. I used Lafore as textbook for my assembly language class > 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM PC-DOS > 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? 2.00 to 2.10 was minor changes. Perhaps the most significant was that the PCJr used the QumeTrak 142 (early half-height) drives, which were TOO SLOW for 2.00, so PC-DOS 2.10 slowed down the DOS track to track access time. 2.11 was MS-DOS ONLY, not PC-DOS. It was one of the favorite ones for OEMs to patch for different video or different drives (such as 720K 3.5") PC-DOS didn't get 3.5" drives until PC-DOS 3.20. PC-DOS 3.30 added 1.4M If you want CD-ROM, 3.10 added the "network redirector". MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) 3.31, another favorite for patching, was the first to support hard drives larger than 32M PC-DOS 4.00 was unpopular, partially becaause IBM didn't pre-warn Norton to revise their fUtilities. MS-DOS 5.00 was the first to be sold RETAIL (not gray-market from an OEM), and added such things as SETVER (so LINK and EXe2BIN didn't need patching for DOS versions). MS-DOS 6.00 added a whole cartful of bundled aftermarket add-ons, including compression, SMARTDRV disk cacheing, etc. PC-DOS 6.10 had a cartful of different aftermarket brands of the same add-ons. MS-DOS 6.20 was the first version of MS-DOS for which imporving reliability was primary goal! (instead of adding smell-o-vision, dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish) It backed off the settings for SMARTDRV so that disks didn't get trashed (incorrectly blamed on compression) 6.21 was same, without compression due to copyright lawsuit(s). 6.22 was same with non-infringing compression > 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what are the > advantages? Consider 3.31, instead of 3.30, to get larger drive support. Bob Wallace (MICROS~1 10th? employee) wrote the IBM PASCAL. He advised me to NOT use the run-time library. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 16:34:12 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 16:34:12 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II PSU - value of C13? Message-ID: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> Hi all, Does anyone happen to know the value of C13 in a Compaq Portable II power supply? It's a small-ish tantalum that lives next to the heatsink between U6 and U7 - although mine doesn't live any more, having just roasted itself in spectacular fashion. Quite possibly there's some other fault at play, but on the other hand it may have just been its time; tantalums in vintage stuff seem a little prone to failure. cheers Jules From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 16:35:42 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:35:42 -0400 Subject: Compaq Portable II PSU - value of C13? In-Reply-To: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> References: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> Message-ID: that's a good question. I'd like to get more info on that supply as well. Bill On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 5:34 PM Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does anyone happen to know the value of C13 in a Compaq Portable II power > supply? It's a small-ish tantalum that lives next to the heatsink between > U6 and U7 - although mine doesn't live any more, having just roasted > itself > in spectacular fashion. > > Quite possibly there's some other fault at play, but on the other hand it > may have just been its time; tantalums in vintage stuff seem a little > prone > to failure. > > cheers > > Jules > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 17:09:03 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:09:03 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II PSU - value of C13? In-Reply-To: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> References: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> Message-ID: <34339856-ccb1-fd08-3f82-80fb5ae689a6@gmail.com> On 10/3/20 4:34 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > Does anyone happen to know the value of C13 in a Compaq Portable II power Additional question, does anyone know the nature of the ST506-IDE bridge in these machines? My hard disk is a Miniscribe 8212, which I think has two heads and 615 cylinders (at 17spt), giving ~10MB formatted. However there's a sticker on top of the drive saying "type 1" - according to a Compaq reference I found, that's for a drive with 306 cylinders and four heads (and again 17spt). It's still ~10MB, but obviously a completely different geometry. So, does the Compaq bridge do translation between logical and physical geometry (and so the bridge presents it as a four-head drive even though it's not)? Or has someone perhaps put a drive from a different system in there at some point (and so the "type 1" refers to that unknown system's BIOS drive table)? The Compaq BIOS table has an entry as type 15 which is all zeros, so that's possibly some sort of "user defined" option, although I don't know if it can store the parameters in NVRAM and treat it as a bootable device, or if it could only be accessed via floppy boot. I have no idea what the original stored system settings were - the battery's long-gone. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 17:14:07 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 17:14:07 -0500 Subject: Compaq Portable II PSU - value of C13? In-Reply-To: References: <7b6dbdeb-580e-c64d-fdce-06699007cd45@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3990ed66-d4a1-850a-978c-2de8d27807a9@gmail.com> On 10/3/20 4:35 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > that's a good question.? I'd like to get more info on that supply as well. There's some info here on the connector pinout, in case you haven't seen it before, but I've been unable to find any schematics so far: https://oldcrap.org/2018/02/04/compaq-portable-ii/ There's an oddball 1700uF cap on the supply which has an additional third lead sticking out the top of the can - I don't think that's something I've seen before. I don't think the third lead is actually connected to anything, so maybe it's only there for structural support. Weird, though. From lproven at gmail.com Sat Oct 3 19:02:45 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 02:02:45 +0200 Subject: Concurrent Controls Multiuser DOS In-Reply-To: <359215356.1550573.1601741662694@mail.yahoo.com> References: <359215356.1550573.1601741662694.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <359215356.1550573.1601741662694@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 18:14, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > > I'm researching Multiuser DOS out of my own interest. A version made by Concurrent Controls specifically. However, I have been unable to find documentation on it to satisfy my curiosity on how it works and how it is configured. They must have somehow broken the 640K barrier or virtualized each user session, I'd like to understand it better. What were it's limitations, I'm guessing that each user didn't get direct access to hardware. Anyone out there have a document or experience with it? It's just one fork of the old DR Concurrent DOS/386, descended from Concurrent CP/M. The Wikipedia article is a good start: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiuser_DOS I say this with slight bias as I wrote a chunk of it. Yes, I had some experience with it, installing and supporting it on customers' systems in the late 1980s. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Oct 3 20:19:35 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 18:19:35 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? Message-ID: My little LSI-11 system doesn't have a usable Line-Time Clock because it lacks the register, which it expects to be in either an MXV11-B (M7195) or a BDV11 (M8012). My power supply theoretically supplies the LTC but I haven't confirmed that, so my preference would be an M7195 if possible. Does anyone have one they'd be interested in parting with? I'm fine with shipping internationally and with paying a reasonable price, and I promise to take good care of it and pass it on to another good home if I should ever part with it. (Friends don't let friends recycle rare electronics.) Alternately, is there a "modern" Q-bus board that provides things like LTC (both the clock and the register), SLU, memory, etc.? -- Chris From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Oct 3 21:57:03 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 3 Oct 2020 22:57:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? Message-ID: <20201004025703.57DD018C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Hanson > My little LSI-11 system doesn't have a usable Line-Time Clock because > it lacks the register, which it expects to be in either an MXV11-B > (M7195) or a BDV11 (M8012). My power supply theoretically supplies the > LTC .. so my preference would be an M7195 ... > Does anyone have one they'd be interested in parting with? The MXV11-B is rare and expensive - I think because it's a Q22 card. The BDV11 is, on the other hand, fairly common, not not too expensive. If you can't find a reasonably-priced one (i.e. References: <359215356.1550573.1601741662694.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <359215356.1550573.1601741662694@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: I have Concurrent Link XM and Softlink and stuff like that here but I never used it much. b On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 8:03 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 18:14, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I'm researching Multiuser DOS out of my own interest. A version made by > Concurrent Controls specifically. However, I have been unable to find > documentation on it to satisfy my curiosity on how it works and how it is > configured. They must have somehow broken the 640K barrier or virtualized > each user session, I'd like to understand it better. What were it's > limitations, I'm guessing that each user didn't get direct access to > hardware. Anyone out there have a document or experience with it? > > It's just one fork of the old DR Concurrent DOS/386, descended from > Concurrent CP/M. The Wikipedia article is a good start: > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiuser_DOS > > I say this with slight bias as I wrote a chunk of it. Yes, I had some > experience with it, installing and supporting it on customers' systems > in the late 1980s. > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 3 23:00:00 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 00:00:00 -0400 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e9104ca-200f-047d-3771-078388cd867a@alembic.crystel.com> I most probably have a BDV11 bootstrap module I can part with. Might have an older MXV11 as well, could the 18 bit one do this (I think it did, and I'm guessing you have a pdp11/03 with a quad width CPU) CZ On 10/3/2020 9:19 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > My little LSI-11 system doesn't have a usable Line-Time Clock because it lacks the register, which it expects to be in either an MXV11-B (M7195) or a BDV11 (M8012). My power supply theoretically supplies the LTC but I haven't confirmed that, so my preference would be an M7195 if possible. > > Does anyone have one they'd be interested in parting with? I'm fine with shipping internationally and with paying a reasonable price, and I promise to take good care of it and pass it on to another good home if I should ever part with it. (Friends don't let friends recycle rare electronics.) > > Alternately, is there a "modern" Q-bus board that provides things like LTC (both the clock and the register), SLU, memory, etc.? > > -- Chris > From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 03:22:29 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 01:22:29 -0700 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) Message-ID: More mysteries while poking at the MDP-1000. Spent some time this evening working out the rest of the signals on the power harness (I suspect inputs for an LTC circuit and a "power good" signal, as well as something connected to a relay on the backplane, probably related to power control). There are a lot of unidentifiable ICs on the main CPU logic board and on the backplane, mixed in with bog-standard 7400-series TTL. Curious if anyone has any ideas, as my searches and perusal of datasheets/databooks on Bitsavers have turned up nothing. These are all TI-manufactured ICs, 1969 manufacturing dates, with "SN48xx" and "SN63xx" part numbers (a few omit the "SN" prefix.) I'm wondering if these are just standard 7400 ICs with special codes; for example there are several SN4816's near the edge connector for the I/O bus, where a 7416 might (?) make sense, and from some basic probing and following traces I think the pinouts make sense. (Everything's conformal coated so it's a real bear to beep things out...) Any ideas? Thanks again, Josh From will.senn at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 09:44:07 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 09:44:07 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <244390af-66f5-6e27-71d2-bf6737a5d924@gmail.com> On 10/3/20 11:44 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/3/20 8:38 AM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > >> Some questions I have related to the exploration: >> >> 1. I'm curious if there are other folks out there doing similar stuff? >> 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is >> this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other >> methods? >> 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I >> couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM >> Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone >> know where I can find one online? >> 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM >> PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? >> 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what >> are the advantages? >> 6. I'm happy to post here, but if y'all know of a more appropriate >> venue, please suggest it? > 1 and 6:The folks at vcfed.org are far more involved into things PC; I > would recommend that venue. > > 2. Interrupt 21 is the most hardware-independent way to perform console > output. It is neither the fastest nor most flexible. Most MSDOS > programs needing fast or full-screen control revert to writing into > display memory directly, which is a bit more involved, but worth the > effort. There are also INT 10h calls, but again, for text output, they > can be very slow. > > 3. Can't address that one--I have 1.0 and 4.0 and later in my library; > I'm not sure if I have the "gap" ones. MASM 1.0 was a huge mess; the > product really didn't start to mature until 4.0. > > 4. MS-DOS 2.x had numerous variations, such as that employed for the > NEC PC98 series of machines, as well as numerous other non-IBM PC > platforms. As far as I know, PC-DOS was configured only to be > compatible with IBM's own product line. > > 5. 3.3 was very popular in the day; one thing that it provided was a way > to avoid some of the storage limitations of earlier versions. It also > introduced quite a number of API additions (see Ralf Brown's interrupt > list for details). > > --Chuck Thanks Chuck, I didn't know about vcfed. I'll head over there. Your points about display memory is helpful, as is the rest of your post. I appreciate it. will From will.senn at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 09:45:01 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 09:45:01 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: I didn't think of looking at source. I'll dig around thanks for the tip. Will On 10/3/20 12:14 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > Regarding #4, if you look at the releases source code for DOS 2.0 you will see compilation switches for PCD and MSD. I would need to look again but some were control code things, plus sign-on messages. I know IBM shipped different tools than MS too. > > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > Long Island S100 User?s Group > > Get Outlook for iOS > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, October 3, 2020 12:44:26 PM > To: Will Senn via cctalk > Subject: Re: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations > > On 10/3/20 8:38 AM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > >> Some questions I have related to the exploration: >> >> 1. I'm curious if there are other folks out there doing similar stuff? >> 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is >> this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other >> methods? >> 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I >> couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of IBM >> Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does anyone >> know where I can find one online? >> 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM >> PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? >> 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what >> are the advantages? >> 6. I'm happy to post here, but if y'all know of a more appropriate >> venue, please suggest it? > 1 and 6:The folks at vcfed.org are far more involved into things PC; I > would recommend that venue. > > 2. Interrupt 21 is the most hardware-independent way to perform console > output. It is neither the fastest nor most flexible. Most MSDOS > programs needing fast or full-screen control revert to writing into > display memory directly, which is a bit more involved, but worth the > effort. There are also INT 10h calls, but again, for text output, they > can be very slow. > > 3. Can't address that one--I have 1.0 and 4.0 and later in my library; > I'm not sure if I have the "gap" ones. MASM 1.0 was a huge mess; the > product really didn't start to mature until 4.0. > > 4. MS-DOS 2.x had numerous variations, such as that employed for the > NEC PC98 series of machines, as well as numerous other non-IBM PC > platforms. As far as I know, PC-DOS was configured only to be > compatible with IBM's own product line. > > 5. 3.3 was very popular in the day; one thing that it provided was a way > to avoid some of the storage limitations of earlier versions. It also > introduced quite a number of API additions (see Ralf Brown's interrupt > list for details). > > --Chuck > > > > > > -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From will.senn at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 09:52:49 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 09:52:49 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 10/3/20 4:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: >> 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is >> this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other >> methods? > > For simple stuff, Int21H works and is portable to anything running > MS-DOS. > > Int10H is less portable.? Not as commonly used. > > If you need SPEED, which all commercial software perceived a need for, > then you need to determine WHERE video memory is (segment B000H for > MDA, segment B800H for CGA, with TEXT modes of EGA/VGA also using > those), and put bytes/words directly into video memory.? REP MOVSW was > generally the quickest way to put up a screenful of stuff (avoid > segment over-ride because REP MOVSW lost that if an interrupt occured > in mid transfer) > Great detail. I'll be playing around in the video memory. Int 21H is fine for printf style output, but I've never really played around with pages of data and this sounds like fun. > > Keyboard input could be done with Int21H, Int16h, or accessing memory > in the BIOS segment. > >> 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I >> couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of >> IBM Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does >> anyone know where I can find one online? > > MASM manual??!? > MASM 5.0 was the first version to have documentation that a sane > person could say was adequate. > The MASM 5.00 manualS were pretty usable for the earlier MASM. Hmm. I'll give it a shot. > > I used Lafore as textbook for my assembly language class > > >> 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM >> PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? > > 2.00 to 2.10 was minor changes.? Perhaps the most significant was that > the PCJr used the QumeTrak 142 (early half-height) drives, which were > TOO SLOW for 2.00, so PC-DOS 2.10 slowed down the DOS track to track > access time. > > 2.11 was MS-DOS ONLY, not PC-DOS.? It was one of the favorite ones for > OEMs to patch for different video or different drives (such as 720K 3.5") > PC-DOS didn't get 3.5" drives until PC-DOS 3.20. > PC-DOS 3.30 added 1.4M If you want CD-ROM, 3.10 added the "network > redirector". > > MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) 3.31, another favorite for patching, was the first > to support hard drives larger than 32M > > PC-DOS 4.00 was unpopular, partially becaause IBM didn't pre-warn > Norton to revise their fUtilities. > > MS-DOS 5.00 was the first to be sold RETAIL (not gray-market from an > OEM), and added such things as SETVER (so LINK and EXe2BIN didn't need > patching for DOS versions). > > MS-DOS 6.00 added a whole cartful of bundled aftermarket add-ons, > including compression, SMARTDRV disk cacheing, etc. > PC-DOS 6.10 had a cartful of different aftermarket brands of the same > add-ons. > > MS-DOS 6.20 was the first version of MS-DOS for which imporving > reliability was primary goal!? (instead of adding smell-o-vision, > dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish) > It backed off the settings for SMARTDRV so that disks didn't get > trashed (incorrectly blamed on compression) > 6.21 was same, without compression due to copyright lawsuit(s). > 6.22 was same with non-infringing compression > Great detail, thanks. >> 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what >> are the advantages? > Consider 3.31, instead of 3.30, to get larger drive support. > I am using a Thinkpad T430 w/DOS 6.22. If I can figure out how to get 3.31 on there, I'll give it a shot. I bought a Floppy-USB connector for my old 1.44 floppy drive and it works fine with DOS 6.22, but I'm not sure where to locate 3.31 media that I could burn onto a 1.44 floppy and boot. I have sealed IBM DOS 3.3 media, but I don't think my T430 is really compatible :). So, I'm not keen on opening the seal... > Bob Wallace (MICROS~1 10th? employee) wrote the IBM PASCAL.? He > advised me to NOT use the run-time library. > Well, there's a thought. I have Turbo Pascal 3 and it works fine. I just like the feeling of running the old stuff. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com Thanks Fred! -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Oct 4 10:02:59 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 15:02:59 +0000 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> , Message-ID: You can find bootable disk images on-line that self extract to a floppy. For DOS 3.31 I use a Compaq version that went with my DeskPro/386. I would only emphasize that 3.5? support didn?t exist before DOS 3 (I forget if it was 3 or 3.1; it was when the PS/2 came out). So you have to watch the image sizes. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Will Senn via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 4, 2020 10:52:49 AM To: Fred Cisin ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations On 10/3/20 4:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: >> 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is >> this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other >> methods? > > For simple stuff, Int21H works and is portable to anything running > MS-DOS. > > Int10H is less portable. Not as commonly used. > > If you need SPEED, which all commercial software perceived a need for, > then you need to determine WHERE video memory is (segment B000H for > MDA, segment B800H for CGA, with TEXT modes of EGA/VGA also using > those), and put bytes/words directly into video memory. REP MOVSW was > generally the quickest way to put up a screenful of stuff (avoid > segment over-ride because REP MOVSW lost that if an interrupt occured > in mid transfer) > Great detail. I'll be playing around in the video memory. Int 21H is fine for printf style output, but I've never really played around with pages of data and this sounds like fun. > > Keyboard input could be done with Int21H, Int16h, or accessing memory > in the BIOS segment. > >> 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I >> couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of >> IBM Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does >> anyone know where I can find one online? > > MASM manual??!? > MASM 5.0 was the first version to have documentation that a sane > person could say was adequate. > The MASM 5.00 manualS were pretty usable for the earlier MASM. Hmm. I'll give it a shot. > > I used Lafore as textbook for my assembly language class > > >> 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM >> PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? > > 2.00 to 2.10 was minor changes. Perhaps the most significant was that > the PCJr used the QumeTrak 142 (early half-height) drives, which were > TOO SLOW for 2.00, so PC-DOS 2.10 slowed down the DOS track to track > access time. > > 2.11 was MS-DOS ONLY, not PC-DOS. It was one of the favorite ones for > OEMs to patch for different video or different drives (such as 720K 3.5") > PC-DOS didn't get 3.5" drives until PC-DOS 3.20. > PC-DOS 3.30 added 1.4M If you want CD-ROM, 3.10 added the "network > redirector". > > MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) 3.31, another favorite for patching, was the first > to support hard drives larger than 32M > > PC-DOS 4.00 was unpopular, partially becaause IBM didn't pre-warn > Norton to revise their fUtilities. > > MS-DOS 5.00 was the first to be sold RETAIL (not gray-market from an > OEM), and added such things as SETVER (so LINK and EXe2BIN didn't need > patching for DOS versions). > > MS-DOS 6.00 added a whole cartful of bundled aftermarket add-ons, > including compression, SMARTDRV disk cacheing, etc. > PC-DOS 6.10 had a cartful of different aftermarket brands of the same > add-ons. > > MS-DOS 6.20 was the first version of MS-DOS for which imporving > reliability was primary goal! (instead of adding smell-o-vision, > dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish) > It backed off the settings for SMARTDRV so that disks didn't get > trashed (incorrectly blamed on compression) > 6.21 was same, without compression due to copyright lawsuit(s). > 6.22 was same with non-infringing compression > Great detail, thanks. >> 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what >> are the advantages? > Consider 3.31, instead of 3.30, to get larger drive support. > I am using a Thinkpad T430 w/DOS 6.22. If I can figure out how to get 3.31 on there, I'll give it a shot. I bought a Floppy-USB connector for my old 1.44 floppy drive and it works fine with DOS 6.22, but I'm not sure where to locate 3.31 media that I could burn onto a 1.44 floppy and boot. I have sealed IBM DOS 3.3 media, but I don't think my T430 is really compatible :). So, I'm not keen on opening the seal... > Bob Wallace (MICROS~1 10th? employee) wrote the IBM PASCAL. He > advised me to NOT use the run-time library. > Well, there's a thought. I have Turbo Pascal 3 and it works fine. I just like the feeling of running the old stuff. > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com Thanks Fred! -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 4 10:11:11 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 11:11:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? Message-ID: <20201004151111.B7D5B18C103@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > Might have an older MXV11 as well, could the 18 bit one do this Ooh, good catch; yes, the MXV11-A also has an LTC. I too have an 'extra' one. The OP should probably check to see if his P/S generates the bus clock signal; most of the options we've discussed for him would need it. Noel From will.senn at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 10:23:54 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 10:23:54 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Richard, I'll look for the Compaq 3.31 3.5" image. Thanks! Will On 10/4/20 10:02 AM, Richard Cini wrote: > You can find bootable disk images on-line that self extract to a > floppy. For DOS 3.31 I use a Compaq version that went with my > DeskPro/386. > > I would only emphasize that 3.5? support didn?t exist before DOS 3 (I > forget if it was 3 or 3.1; it was when the PS/2 came out). So you have > to watch the image sizes. > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > Long Island S100 User?s Group > > Get Outlook for iOS > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Will Senn > via cctalk > *Sent:* Sunday, October 4, 2020 10:52:49 AM > *To:* Fred Cisin ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > *Subject:* Re: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations > On 10/3/20 4:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 3 Oct 2020, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > >> 2. Most of the Assembly examples use DOS interrupt 21 for output. Is > >> this typical of assembly programs of the time, or did folks use other > >> methods? > > > > For simple stuff, Int21H works and is portable to anything running > > MS-DOS. > > > > Int10H is less portable.? Not as commonly used. > > > > If you need SPEED, which all commercial software perceived a need for, > > then you need to determine WHERE video memory is (segment B000H for > > MDA, segment B800H for CGA, with TEXT modes of EGA/VGA also using > > those), and put bytes/words directly into video memory.? REP MOVSW was > > generally the quickest way to put up a screenful of stuff (avoid > > segment over-ride because REP MOVSW lost that if an interrupt occured > > in mid transfer) > > > Great detail. I'll be playing around in the video memory. Int 21H is > fine for printf style output, but I've never really played around with > pages of data and this sounds like fun. > > > > > Keyboard input could be done with Int21H, Int16h, or accessing memory > > in the BIOS segment. > > > >> 3. I was able to find a lot of 5150/5160 and other manuals, but I > >> couldn't find an IBM Macro Assembler 2.0 manual (there are plenty of > >> IBM Macro Assembler/2 manuals, but those are for OS/2, not DOS). Does > >> anyone know where I can find one online? > > > > MASM manual??!? > > MASM 5.0 was the first version to have documentation that a sane > > person could say was adequate. > > The MASM 5.00 manualS were pretty usable for the earlier MASM. > Hmm. I'll give it a shot. > > > > > I used Lafore as textbook for my assembly language class > > > > > >> 4. In y'all's view, what are the significant differences between IBM > >> PC-DOS 2.10 and it's brother MS-DOS 2.x? > > > > 2.00 to 2.10 was minor changes.? Perhaps the most significant was that > > the PCJr used the QumeTrak 142 (early half-height) drives, which were > > TOO SLOW for 2.00, so PC-DOS 2.10 slowed down the DOS track to track > > access time. > > > > 2.11 was MS-DOS ONLY, not PC-DOS.? It was one of the favorite ones for > > OEMs to patch for different video or different drives (such as 720K > 3.5") > > PC-DOS didn't get 3.5" drives until PC-DOS 3.20. > > PC-DOS 3.30 added 1.4M If you want CD-ROM, 3.10 added the "network > > redirector". > > > > MS-DOS (NOT PC-DOS) 3.31, another favorite for patching, was the first > > to support hard drives larger than 32M > > > > PC-DOS 4.00 was unpopular, partially becaause IBM didn't pre-warn > > Norton to revise their fUtilities. > > > > MS-DOS 5.00 was the first to be sold RETAIL (not gray-market from an > > OEM), and added such things as SETVER (so LINK and EXe2BIN didn't need > > patching for DOS versions). > > > > MS-DOS 6.00 added a whole cartful of bundled aftermarket add-ons, > > including compression, SMARTDRV disk cacheing, etc. > > PC-DOS 6.10 had a cartful of different aftermarket brands of the same > > add-ons. > > > > MS-DOS 6.20 was the first version of MS-DOS for which imporving > > reliability was primary goal!? (instead of adding smell-o-vision, > > dancing kangaroos and yodelling jellyfish) > > It backed off the settings for SMARTDRV so that disks didn't get > > trashed (incorrectly blamed on compression) > > 6.21 was same, without compression due to copyright lawsuit(s). > > 6.22 was same with non-infringing compression > > > > Great detail, thanks. > > >> 5. I'm thinking of moving on to 3.3 at some point, in your view, what > >> are the advantages? > > Consider 3.31, instead of 3.30, to get larger drive support. > > > I am using a Thinkpad T430 w/DOS 6.22. If I can figure out how to get > 3.31 on there, I'll give it a shot. I bought a Floppy-USB connector for > my old 1.44 floppy drive and it works fine with DOS 6.22, but I'm not > sure where to locate 3.31 media that I could burn onto a 1.44 floppy and > boot. I have sealed IBM DOS 3.3 media, but I don't think my T430 is > really compatible :). So, I'm not keen on opening the seal... > > > Bob Wallace (MICROS~1 10th? employee) wrote the IBM PASCAL.? He > > advised me to NOT use the run-time library. > > > Well, there's a thought. I have Turbo Pascal 3 and it works fine. I just > like the feeling of running the old stuff. > > > > -- > > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com > > Thanks Fred! > > > -- > GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462? 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF > -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 10:43:41 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 11:43:41 -0400 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: https://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=60 If you can find a way to format a MS DOS compatible diskette in the format you need, here is how to get DOS 1 or DOS 3.3 onto that disk and make it bootable. Bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 4 12:06:18 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 10:06:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> , Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Richard Cini wrote: > I would only emphasize that 3.5? support didn?t exist before DOS 3 (I > forget if it was 3 or 3.1; it was when the PS/2 came out). So you have > to watch the image sizes. PS/2 came out with PC-DOS 3.30 But also an IBM push for OS/2 DOS versions according to media support (ignoring other IMPORTANT changes, such as file handles, hierarchical DIRectories, etc.) DOS 1.00 160k 40 tracks single sided 8 sectors per track. PC-DOS 1.10 MS-DOS 1.25 320K 40 tracks per side double sided 8 sectors per track. DOS 2.00 360K 9 sectors per track MS-DOS 2.11 customized by SOME OEMs 720K 3.5"; not all are same format as PC-DOS! DOS 3.00 1.2M DOS 3.10 CD-ROM "network redirector" DOS 3.20 720K DOS 3.30 1.4M MS-DOS 3.31 HDD >32M customized by OEMs PC-DOS 4.00 MS-DOS 5.00 first version sold RETAIL MS-DOS 6.00 PC-DOS 6.10 cartload of bundled third party add-ons MS-DOS 6.20 patched for reliability, including changing SMARTDRV to stop trashing disks (blamed on compression) MS-DOS 6.21 compression not provided (copyright lawsuit) MS-DOS 6.22 non-infringing compression Win98SE USB Note that 2.11 and 3.31, due to OEM customization will OFTEN have a different FORMAT program (different drives), and different MODE.COM (some had different video modes available). Sometimes some other bundled programs had differences. Note that DOS version is a numeral, a period, then a two digit decimal number. It is ALWAYS 2.10, NOT 2.1; 3.10, NOT 3.1, etc. What we call 2.1 is ACTUALLY version TWO point TEN! what we call 3.2 is ACTUALLY version THREE point TWENTY! what we call 3.31 is ACTUALLY version THREE point THIRTY-ONE! what we call 4.01 is actually version FOUR point ONE. MOV AH, 30h INT 21h returns the major version in AL. Print that. Then print a period. Minor version is in AH. print that as a 2 digit decimal number. 2.10 has AX: 0A02 3.10 has AX: 0A03 3.20 has AX: 1403 3.30 has AX: 1E03 3.31 has AX: 1F03 Note: SETVER (since 5.00) lets a version of DOS lie about its age. There's an important reason. When PC-DOS 1.10 came out, with double sided drives, people sometimes ran CHKDSK from DOS 1.00 (sometimes even having 1.00 CHKDSK on a 1.10 boot disk), which proceeded to "FIX" the disk into an unusable form. To prevent that and similar disasters, in addition to modifying CHKDSK to not make changes without confirmation, henceforth, EVERY program distributed with DOS had a MOV AH,30h/INT21h/CMP AX... so that programs could only run with "correct version of DOS. When they stopped including EXE2BIN.EXE and even LINK.EXE with DOS, it became necessary to either step on the version checking code (with DEBUG.COM) or use SETVER. I'll do a separate post about DRIVER.SYS and DRIVPARM. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Oct 4 12:26:16 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 10:26:16 -0700 Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> >MS-DOS 5.00 first version sold RETAILFred,I have to respectfully disagree here. 3.20 was sold in retail. It was packaged in the dark blue packaging which was the norm for MS at that time (after the green packaging of earlier products).? I have a copy sitting up on my shelf (in fact I have both 3.20 and 3.21). 4.00 seems to be in the grey oem package but not necessarily branded (i.e. a generic rey box included with new system purchase) . I have not seen anything MS retail before 3.20.-Ali From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Oct 4 12:26:17 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 10:26:17 -0700 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Oct-04, at 1:22 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > More mysteries while poking at the MDP-1000. Spent some time this evening > working out the rest of the signals on the power harness (I suspect inputs > for an LTC circuit and a "power good" signal, as well as something > connected to a relay on the backplane, probably related to power control). > > There are a lot of unidentifiable ICs on the main CPU logic board and on > the backplane, mixed in with bog-standard 7400-series TTL. Curious if > anyone has any ideas, as my searches and perusal of datasheets/databooks on > Bitsavers have turned up nothing. These are all TI-manufactured ICs, 1969 > manufacturing dates, with "SN48xx" and "SN63xx" part numbers (a few omit > the "SN" prefix.) I'm wondering if these are just standard 7400 ICs with > special codes; for example there are several SN4816's near the edge > connector for the I/O bus, where a 7416 might (?) make sense, and from some > basic probing and following traces I think the pinouts make sense. > (Everything's conformal coated so it's a real bear to beep things out...) > > Any ideas? I have run across TI ICs from that era with odd/unknown series numbering, in particular the SN3900 and SN4500 DTL ICs. Notably: - by pinout they match up with standard DTL series ICs, - I have only found these in equipment from one manufacturer: calculators built by Canon. I received a solitary page of datasheet for some of them (by way of a Canon service center many years ago), but I have never seen them mentioned in TI databooks from the era, even in those sections where they list e.g. "other products from TI" and proceed to list little known series and part numbers. So an obvious guess is these were house numbering systems of standard parts done for the purchaser/equipment manufacturer but with TI's format scheme rather than a format specified by the manufacturer. Another guess would be standard parts tested and selected for purchaser-specified parameters, although that seems a little excessive for these cases. The 54/7400 series originated with TI in 65, I'm not aware of them producing any other TTL series, other than perhaps second-sourcing some other manufacturer's. I guess that's another possibility - another manuf's TTL series, labeled differently. Odd that this Motorola CPU is filled with ICs manufactured by TI. It's conceivable, although it seems less probable, that they're DTL rather than TTL. On the whole, best guess would seem to be 7400-series inside. -- On another issue, did you trace the +/-15V lines to the core address/inhibit drivers? Could some of the remaining wires from the PS be other core supplies - 15V was a little low compared to most core systems I've seen. From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 12:41:48 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 19:41:48 +0200 Subject: IBM 3279 analogue board / schematics? Message-ID: I am helping a friend with his IBM 3279 terminal. I got the PSU working after reverse engineering it. Concluded that the SMPS control chip was a standard TDA 2640 in IBM disguise. But of course the thing didn't work with the PSU fixed. A fuse which was in series with the vertical deflection coil on the analogue board went toast together with a 200 ohm resistor in the vertical deflection circuit. https://i.imgur.com/O4YEsdL.jpg At first I thought this had to do with some kind of fault in the vertical deflection coil itself. It measured only 1.2 ohms. But checking the IBM MAP manual revealed that both deflection yokes are supposed to be less than 2 ohms. So there has to be something else. I powered up the analogue board with the 5V and 8.5V that is normally supplied by the PSU (left the 103V unconnected since it used for the HV mostly) just to see what happened. The power consumption was reasonable, 0.3 amps on the 5V and 0.16A on the 8.5V. I then probed around among all those annoying IBM marked chips and square aluminium boxes. I found one chip that had 250 kHz on a pin. The chip appeared to be a divider since there were also 125 kHz, 62 Khz 31 kHz and 15 kHz. It seems to be originating from a square aluminium box. And then I found a signal which was around 20 Hz on another chip. As far as I understand the 15 kHz would fit well with the 64us sweep in the manual. But what is the purpose of the 20Hz signal? Vertical deflection? http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/3279/SY33-0069-3_3279_Color_Display_Terminal_Maintenance_Information_Part_1_Nov81.pdf According to the above manual the frame sync is 10 ms for model 2 and 13.8 ms for model 3 (this is a model 3). And moreover if 20Hz is the frequency used for generating the vertical it could explain why the fuse blew since the current in the deflection yoke should normally increase linearly with time. Three times longer deflection period would yield a three time higher current, thus very likely to exceed the 1.5A rating of the fuse. So I am looking for either another analogue board for an IBM 3279 or a schematic for the thing or maybe both would be great. IBM stuff is annoyingly hard to repair... Has anyone seen schematics for the IBM 3279? Does anyone have a spare analogue board? /Mattis From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 4 12:54:41 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 10:54:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DRIVPARM and DRIVER.SYS (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> , Message-ID: When 5150, 5160, and 5170 first came out, 3.5" drives did not yet exist. OEMs that were early adopters of them used MS-DOS 2.11. The disk format was not always the same as what IBM used starting with DOS 3.20. For example, GAVILAN MS-DOS 2.11 supported 720K 3.5", but with a different format until version 2.11K (by which time the company had collapsed) When IBM introduced their 720K 3.5" drives, along with PC-DOS 3.20, they also started selling add-on 3.5" drives! First an external with DC37 connector, and then later externals for PS/2. Those could be connected to the external floppy port of 5150 and 5160. BUT, DOS didn't know from 720K, and would do a 360K image on the drive. Until TOLD otherwise. DRIVER.SYS was an installable device driver, starting with DOS 3.20, for using unexpected drive types (such as not included in the AT CMOS), since 5150, 5160, 5170 all had hardware that could handle 720K 3.5". And 5170 hardware could handle 1.4M before that was included in early BIOS CMOS. DEVICE = DRIVER.SYS /D:1 /F:2 told DOS to create a new additional drive letter for 720K in the physical second FLOPPY drive. /D: specified drive (0 - 255, although stock controller only did 0 - 3) /F: specified drive type 0 - 160 K/180 K or 320 K/360 K 1 - 1.2 megabyte 2 - 720 K (3.5" disk or 80 cylinder low density 5.25 (NOT used in USA)) 3 - SD 8" (not supported on all) 4 - DD 8" (not supported on all) 5 - Hard disk 6 - Tape 7 - 1.44 MB (3.5" disk) 8 - Read/write optical disk 9 - 2.88 MB (3.5" disk) drive type could also be specified by /T:, /S:, /H: for cylinders, sectors per track, and sides; BUT it would NOT let you create as needed; it only used that data to look for a match in the existing list. For example, if you told the 5170 that the 8" drive was a 1.2M (not all recognized type 3 and 4), could you tell it 77 tracks V 80? (Similar situation in FORMAT) And some later systems permitted /F:720, etc., since "who can remember drive type NUMBER?" On SOME systems, you could substitute DRIVPARM = /D:1 /F:2 for similar effect. Same switches as DRIVER.SYS. EXCEPT, DRIVPARM would alter the parameters for existing drive letter, NOT create a new drive letter. See also, LASTDRIVE (With 4 floppies, CD-ROM(s), HDD(s), parallel port drive(s), Floptical(s) on SCSI, RAMDISK(s), etc., didn't want to waste drive letters) DRIVPARM was not documented in PC-DOS I still don't understand: On a 5170, with IBM BIOS ROMs using MS-DOS, DRIVPARM would produce an "UNRECOGNIZED CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message. On a 5170, with IBM BIOS ROMs using PC-DOS, DRIVPARM would produce an "UNRECOGNIZED CONFIG.SYS COMMAND" message. On a 5170, with NON-IBM BIOS ROMs using MS-DOS, DRIVPARM would work correctly. On a 5170, with NON-IBM BIOS ROMs using PC-DOS, DRIVPARM (UNDOCUMENTED) would work correctly. Notice that with the NON-IBM BIOS, it would work with MS-DOS OR PC-DOS. "Lack of existence in PC-DOS" was NOT an issue. With the IBM BIOS ROMs, it would not work, disunirregardless of MS-DOS V PC-DOS. Therefore, it seems that it was present in BOTH versions of DOS (albeit undocumented in PC-DOS), but had a strange incompatability with the IBM BIOS ROMs. And, especially strange that the error message seemed to clearly be an OS problem. All of the software changes for 720K 3.5" would also work for 5.25" low density 80 track per side 720K drives. (What had the comical "QUAD DENSITY" name in many CP/M systems) Drives such as Tandon TM100-4, TEAC 55F, Shugart/Panasonic/Matsushita 465. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 4 13:07:11 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 11:07:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Will Senn wrote: > I am using a Thinkpad T430 w/DOS 6.22. If I can figure out how to get 3.31 on > there, I'll give it a shot. I bought a Floppy-USB connector for my old 1.44 > floppy drive and it works fine with DOS 6.22, but I'm not sure where to > locate 3.31 media that I could burn onto a 1.44 floppy and boot. I have > sealed IBM DOS 3.3 media, but I don't think my T430 is really compatible :). > So, I'm not keen on opening the seal... I'm curious. 6.22 did not have native USB support - that didn't come about until WIN98SE. Are you running CONFIG.SYS drivers for it? If you can find an original copy of COMPAQ MS-DOS 3.31, that was originally available on 1.2M and 1.4M Zenith MS-DOS 3.31 is another popular choice. Try to find it, rather than opening the PC-DOS 3.30. 3.30 (and all earlier) did not support HDD >32M, although there were ways to cheat that limitation, such as the network redirector (with MSCDEX) coul make a local drive LOOK like it was a network drive elsewhere. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From will.senn at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 13:18:19 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:18:19 -0500 Subject: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 4, 2020, at 1:07 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Will Senn wrote: >> I am using a Thinkpad T430 w/DOS 6.22. If I can figure out how to get 3.31 on there, I'll give it a shot. I bought a Floppy-USB connector for my old 1.44 floppy drive and it works fine with DOS 6.22, but I'm not sure where to locate 3.31 media that I could burn onto a 1.44 floppy and boot. I have sealed IBM DOS 3.3 media, but I don't think my T430 is really compatible :). So, I'm not keen on opening the seal... > > I'm curious. > 6.22 did not have native USB support - that didn't come about until WIN98SE. > Are you running CONFIG.SYS drivers for it? > > I think it?s the laptop BIOS faking the USB as a standard floppy to DOS. > If you can find an original copy of COMPAQ MS-DOS 3.31, that was originally available on 1.2M and 1.4M > Zenith MS-DOS 3.31 is another popular choice. > > Try to find it, rather than opening the PC-DOS 3.30. 3.30 (and all earlier) did not support HDD >32M, although there were ways to cheat that limitation, such as the network redirector (with MSCDEX) coul make a local drive LOOK like it was a network drive elsewhere. > Great to know, thanks! > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 13:42:17 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 11:42:17 -0700 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 10:26 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2020-Oct-04, at 1:22 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > More mysteries while poking at the MDP-1000. Spent some time this > evening > > working out the rest of the signals on the power harness (I suspect > inputs > > for an LTC circuit and a "power good" signal, as well as something > > connected to a relay on the backplane, probably related to power > control). > > > > There are a lot of unidentifiable ICs on the main CPU logic board and on > > the backplane, mixed in with bog-standard 7400-series TTL. Curious if > > anyone has any ideas, as my searches and perusal of datasheets/databooks > on > > Bitsavers have turned up nothing. These are all TI-manufactured ICs, > 1969 > > manufacturing dates, with "SN48xx" and "SN63xx" part numbers (a few omit > > the "SN" prefix.) I'm wondering if these are just standard 7400 ICs with > > special codes; for example there are several SN4816's near the edge > > connector for the I/O bus, where a 7416 might (?) make sense, and from > some > > basic probing and following traces I think the pinouts make sense. > > (Everything's conformal coated so it's a real bear to beep things out...) > > > > Any ideas? > > I have run across TI ICs from that era with odd/unknown series numbering, > in particular the SN3900 and SN4500 DTL ICs. > Notably: > - by pinout they match up with standard DTL series ICs, > - I have only found these in equipment from one manufacturer: > calculators built by Canon. > > I received a solitary page of datasheet for some of them (by way of a > Canon service center many years ago), but I have never seen them mentioned > in TI databooks from the era, even in those sections where they list e.g. > "other products from TI" and proceed to list little known series and part > numbers. > > So an obvious guess is these were house numbering systems of standard > parts done for the purchaser/equipment manufacturer but with TI's format > scheme rather than a format specified by the manufacturer. Another guess > would be standard parts tested and selected for purchaser-specified > parameters, although that seems a little excessive for these cases. > Yeah, either of those options seems a likely possibility. It definitely seems like they were building this thing for bulletproof operation, so maybe it really is the latter. > > The 54/7400 series originated with TI in 65, I'm not aware of them > producing any other TTL series, other than perhaps second-sourcing some > other manufacturer's. > I guess that's another possibility - another manuf's TTL series, labeled > differently. > > Odd that this Motorola CPU is filled with ICs manufactured by TI. > Yeah, the irony of this was not lost on me. Other than the aforementioned linear ICs in the core modules, every IC in this has a TI logo on it. > > It's conceivable, although it seems less probable, that they're DTL rather > than TTL. > > On the whole, best guess would seem to be 7400-series inside. > Yeah, I'm guessing (hoping) 7400 as well, especially since there are actual 74xx-labeled ICs in here casually mixed with the 48xx and 63xx. A thought occurred, that if I get desperate I could remove a few of the ICs and attempt identification using the IC tester I have. Not going to do that unless I can't figure it out any other way. The good news is there aren't too many varieties. I haven't done a full inventory but there's not more than a dozen or so different types in here. > > -- > > On another issue, did you trace the +/-15V lines to the core > address/inhibit drivers? > Could some of the remaining wires from the PS be other core supplies - 15V > was a little low compared to most core systems I've seen. > > I did manage to trace the +/-15V lines to the drivers on the core memory. I don't believe any of the extra signals are other voltages -- three of them go to the CPU board, one goes to the aforementioned mystery relay, one goes to a tiny bit of logic on the mainboard (I suspect some manner of LTC), and the last goes to a trace that just dead-ends and goes nowhere at all. The very little documentation I have on the CPU itself suggests that the supply provided only +5 and +/-15. There are two sets of power rails for each; the first goes to the CPU, front panel, and two memory slots, the second set goes to the other two memory slots. I suspect that upgrading past 8K of memory required a power supply upgrade. - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 13:51:35 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 11:51:35 -0700 Subject: DRIVPARM and DRIVER.SYS (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5d455cc2-3b8a-627d-b49c-c88d54ad5b64@sydex.com> On 10/4/20 10:54 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On SOME systems, you could substitute > DRIVPARM = /D:1 /F:2 for similar effect. > Same switches as DRIVER.SYS. > EXCEPT, DRIVPARM would alter the parameters for existing drive letter, > NOT create a new drive letter.? See also, LASTDRIVE > (With 4 floppies, CD-ROM(s), HDD(s), parallel port drive(s), > Floptical(s) on SCSI, RAMDISK(s), etc., didn't want to waste drive letters) IIRC, in xDOS 3.2 and 3.3 DRIVPARM produced an error if specified as usual, but when DRIVPARM was suffixed by a string of three contorl-A (hex 01h) characters, it worked fine. Good ol' DOS arcana. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 4 14:12:46 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 12:12:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: > > MS-DOS 5.00 first version sold RETAIL On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Ali wrote: > Fred,I have to respectfully disagree here. 3.20 was sold in retail. It > was packaged in the dark blue packaging which was the norm for MS at > that time (after the green packaging of earlier products).?? I have a > copy sitting up on my shelf (in fact I have both 3.20 and 3.21). 4.00 > seems to be in the grey oem package but not necessarily branded (i.e. a > generic rey box included with new system purchase) . I have not seen > anything MS retail before 3.20.-Ali When IBM announced 3.20, I stood in line outside the IBM retail store in Oakland for the doors to open. Support of 3.5" was important to me. We need to differentiate between Retail Sales BY MICROSOFT, V manufacture and WHOLESALE sales by Microsoft to OEMs for them to retail. With a WIDE variety of different packagings, ranging from personalized to the OEM (Compaq, Zenith, Morrow, etc.), very generic, and even packaging that would not be out of place for a Microsoft retail sale. I was unaware of DOS Retail sales done directly by Microsoft prior to 5.00. Although MANY OEMs would sell to anybody with money, most vendors at shows, and even stores, were acquiring their inventory from OEMs. They wouldn't really be called "GRAY MARKET" unless Microsoft's terms with the OEM had precluded that. But, if you have reason to believe that your copies came directly from Microsoft, not through an OEM, OR came through a retail store that had no affiliation with an OEM, then I need to revise my perception of when Microsoft started to retail DOS. Has anybody ever seen a retail price list or RETAIL SALES (V product) ad? (write/call to purchase) YES, I can be TOTALLY WRONG. I felt the elephant's tail and smelled the region, but did not have the big picture. I had even previously speculated that the 1991 date of 5.00 might reflect 10 year non-competition terms in the original IBM/Microsoft contract(s). Microsoft certainly did have capability of retail, at least for SOME products. Did they RETAIL the Softcard, or only Wholesale? In 1979?, Lifeboat (that Microsoft had redirected me to) had repeatedly failed to fulfill an urgent need for multiple copies of the new Microsoft Fortran for TRS80, On the way back from the eclipse in Montana, I made a stop, and a friend (Bob Wallace) who worked for Microsoft handed me the very first couple of copies in the Seattle airport. The handoff WITHIN state of Washington should have prevented sales tax exemption for interstate commerce. It could still be exempt due to being FOR RESALE (although THAT should have required me to fill out forms with the WA state taxman), so they might have written it up as being interstate (legal if they called me a courier, rather than the customer?) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Oct 4 14:16:16 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 12:16:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DRIVPARM and DRIVER.SYS (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <5d455cc2-3b8a-627d-b49c-c88d54ad5b64@sydex.com> References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> <5d455cc2-3b8a-627d-b49c-c88d54ad5b64@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> On SOME systems, you could substitute >> DRIVPARM = /D:1 /F:2 for similar effect. On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > IIRC, in xDOS 3.2 and 3.3 DRIVPARM produced an error if specified as > usual, but when DRIVPARM was suffixed by a string of three contorl-A > (hex 01h) characters, it worked fine. > Good ol' DOS arcana. THANK YOU! That provides some clues about the issue of BIOS, not DOS, incompatability. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 14:52:02 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 12:52:02 -0700 Subject: DRIVPARM and DRIVER.SYS (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <6c3c4165-3677-e479-0ca5-a81f2150da5a@gmail.com> <5d455cc2-3b8a-627d-b49c-c88d54ad5b64@sydex.com> Message-ID: <496a110a-ee84-8e5a-8872-fe758c092279@sydex.com> On 10/4/20 12:16 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On SOME systems, you could substitute >>> DRIVPARM = /D:1 /F:2 for similar effect. > > On Sun, 4 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> IIRC, in xDOS 3.2 and 3.3 DRIVPARM produced an error if specified as >> usual, but when DRIVPARM was suffixed by a string of three contorl-A >> (hex 01h) characters, it worked fine. >> Good ol' DOS arcana. > > THANK YOU!? That provides some clues about the issue of BIOS, not DOS, > incompatability. Beg to differ, Fred. CONFIG.SYS is processed by DOS, not the BIOS. In this case it seems to be a lexical quirk to keep folks from using the feature. --Chuck From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Oct 4 15:14:48 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:14:48 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? In-Reply-To: <20201004025703.57DD018C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201004025703.57DD018C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <82E082EB-0BBE-49BD-9515-8AF5795D59BF@eschatologist.net> Thanks to everyone who replied, on- and off-list! There?s an MXV11-B (M7195) on its way to me. :) Since people were asking about my setup, here?s what I have: - MDB BA11-clone enclosure, PSU, and 8-slot 22-bit backplane - DEC KDF11-A (M8186) rev C processor with FPP added - DEC DLV11-J (M8043) SLU - Motorola M1132 128KW RAM And some stuff that?s untested but I?m eager to try: - (soon) Emulex UC07 SCSI controller - (soon) DEC MXV11-B (M7195) system controller - DEC MSV11-LF (M8059) 64KW RAM - DEC DEQNA (M7054) Ethernet controller - DEC RLV12 (M8061) RL01/02 disk controller - MDB MLSI-SCM11 system controller For the latter two, I need to figure out whether my backplane supports ABCD use in the first couple of slots, or if it?s purely an ABAB model. (The KDF11-A, RLV12, and MLSI-SCM11 came in the backplane, but I?m hesitant to interpret that as ?these were configured together in this pattern? rather than ?these happened to fit in here for storage.?) I?m actually still looking for docs on the MSLI-SCM11, since it looks extremely configurable and I have no idea how to use it or what it?ll provide? As for what I?m going to do with it, I?m thinking XINU. Comer?s book is one of the two books via which I learned C (Tannenbaum?s was the other) so I think that?d be a fun system to have up and running, especially since it has IP support. ? Chris From pdp11 at saccade.com Sun Oct 4 14:17:33 2020 From: pdp11 at saccade.com (J. Peterson) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 12:17:33 -0700 Subject: Manuals, catalogs, brochures posted on Archive.org Message-ID: <20201004191801.6974F4E69B@mx2.ezwind.net> Last year I found a box of material, much of it related to S-100 computers and the Sol I owned in the 1970s. I've scanned it in and posted it to the Internet Archive: https://archive.org/details/@j_peterson Folks researching obscure old devices (Biotech Electronics CGS-808, anyone?) may find something useful. I still have a few documents waiting to scan, but this is 98% of it. Cheers, jp From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Oct 4 15:53:00 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:53:00 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? In-Reply-To: <82E082EB-0BBE-49BD-9515-8AF5795D59BF@eschatologist.net> References: <20201004025703.57DD018C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <82E082EB-0BBE-49BD-9515-8AF5795D59BF@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <054DCDAC-42E3-4B78-8304-C29CC75C1D86@shaw.ca> On 2020-Oct-04, at 1:14 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > Thanks to everyone who replied, on- and off-list! There?s an MXV11-B (M7195) on its way to me. :) > > Since people were asking about my setup, here?s what I have: > > - MDB BA11-clone enclosure, PSU, and 8-slot 22-bit backplane > - DEC KDF11-A (M8186) rev C processor with FPP added > - DEC DLV11-J (M8043) SLU > - Motorola M1132 128KW RAM > > And some stuff that?s untested but I?m eager to try: > > - (soon) Emulex UC07 SCSI controller > - (soon) DEC MXV11-B (M7195) system controller > - DEC MSV11-LF (M8059) 64KW RAM > - DEC DEQNA (M7054) Ethernet controller > - DEC RLV12 (M8061) RL01/02 disk controller > - MDB MLSI-SCM11 system controller > > For the latter two, I need to figure out whether my backplane supports ABCD use in the first couple of slots, or if it?s purely an ABAB model. (The KDF11-A, RLV12, and MLSI-SCM11 came in the backplane, but I?m hesitant to interpret that as ?these were configured together in this pattern? rather than ?these happened to fit in here for storage.?) I have an ~ 30 page manual for the MDB MLSI-BA11-600 series chassis, if there is something that might be answered from that. > I?m actually still looking for docs on the MSLI-SCM11, since it looks extremely configurable and I have no idea how to use it or what it?ll provide? From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Oct 4 15:50:48 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 04 Oct 2020 16:50:48 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 13:51, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > Those would already be broken with Bob's use of large negative numbers > for physical end of tape and 'bad block is here' (you don't get to know > how big that bad block was, so that is hell with tapes with > variable-length records, grumble..) I'm not sure I understand. SIMH metadata markers are treated in the tape library code as unsigned values, so EOM and erase gap are seen as large unsigned values. The format limits record lengths to 24 bits (so about 16 MB maximum per record), reserving the upper 8 bits to indicate the type of the marker, and the bad record marker is the top byte = 0x80. The record length of a bad block is encoded in the lower 24 bits and indicates how big the bad block was. What am I missing? -- Dave From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Oct 4 15:55:02 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 13:55:02 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? In-Reply-To: <054DCDAC-42E3-4B78-8304-C29CC75C1D86@shaw.ca> References: <054DCDAC-42E3-4B78-8304-C29CC75C1D86@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <703A4495-64B3-4EBC-BCEF-73264187572E@eschatologist.net> On Oct 4, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> For the latter two, I need to figure out whether my backplane supports ABCD use in the first couple of slots, or if it?s purely an ABAB model. (The KDF11-A, RLV12, and MLSI-SCM11 came in the backplane, but I?m hesitant to interpret that as ?these were configured together in this pattern? rather than ?these happened to fit in here for storage.?) > > I have an ~ 30 page manual for the MDB MLSI-BA11-600 series chassis, if there is something that might be answered from that. Whoa, cool?that?s the chassis I have! Is the manual scanned? ? Chris From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 18:00:32 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 16:00:32 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> On 10/4/20 1:50 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: > On Friday, October 2, 2020 at 13:51, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > >> Those would already be broken with Bob's use of large negative numbers >> for physical end of tape and 'bad block is here' (you don't get to know >> how big that bad block was, so that is hell with tapes with >> variable-length records, grumble..) > > I'm not sure I understand. SIMH metadata markers are treated in the tape > library code as unsigned values, so EOM and erase gap are seen as large > unsigned values. The format limits record lengths to 24 bits (so about 16 > MB maximum per record), reserving the upper 8 bits to indicate the type of > the marker, and the bad record marker is the top byte = 0x80. The record > length of a bad block is encoded in the lower 24 bits and indicates how big > the bad block was. > > What am I missing? I don't believe that you're missing anything. When I process these files, I mask off the lower 24 bits as the block length. A 16MB tape block is impossibly large in any case. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Oct 4 18:56:32 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 16:56:32 -0700 Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? In-Reply-To: <703A4495-64B3-4EBC-BCEF-73264187572E@eschatologist.net> References: <054DCDAC-42E3-4B78-8304-C29CC75C1D86@shaw.ca> <703A4495-64B3-4EBC-BCEF-73264187572E@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <0B71F9B9-76F8-4276-9C48-72831A7BC9A6@shaw.ca> On 2020-Oct-04, at 1:55 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Oct 4, 2020, at 1:53 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> For the latter two, I need to figure out whether my backplane supports ABCD use in the first couple of slots, or if it?s purely an ABAB model. (The KDF11-A, RLV12, and MLSI-SCM11 came in the backplane, but I?m hesitant to interpret that as ?these were configured together in this pattern? rather than ?these happened to fit in here for storage.?) >> >> I have an ~ 30 page manual for the MDB MLSI-BA11-600 series chassis, if there is something that might be answered from that. > > Whoa, cool?that?s the chassis I have! Is the manual scanned? Photographed. No scanner. It's not as good as 600dpi scan, but pretty good. I'll send access url. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 21:57:13 2020 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:57:13 -0400 Subject: Modcomp computers and documentation Message-ID: Greetings everyone, it's Been a while since i posted here. I had picked up some modcomp minicomputers over the past couple years. A modcomp classic, with a nice front panel with binary swiches, similar to a pdp 11. There is a modcomp 32 as well, the machine boots from internal floppy drives. I was eager to pick up these machines, and save them from being thrown out. I picked up all of the documentation as well. Everything. A truckload of os information. I started to scan it all, but about 3/4 of the way through, my scanner broke. The 32 machine was not stored in climate controlled conditions before i picked it up, and is a bit more worn. It is designed to boot off floppys to load the microcode into the cpu... but the floppys... id be supprised if anything survived. Stored in bad conditions. The classic has internal microcode roms and will not have the same troublesome problem. I have been unable to devote the time and space to these machines as i had planned. I have been far too busy working at ibm, i am planning to shut down my side interests and focus on my dec pdp 11 stuff and ibm mainframe. I am looking to see if anyone would be interested in buying these. I spent a great deal getting them moved and keeping them in cool climate controlled storage, i am looking to see if i can get any offers and break even. Keep in mind, they are the size of a computer rack and heavy. I will post back with pictures soon. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 4 22:12:39 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 20:12:39 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/2020 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/20 1:50 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: >> > I don't believe that you're missing anything. When I process these > files, I mask off the lower 24 bits as the block length. A 16MB tape > block is impossibly large in any case. > > --Chuck Oil logging tapes write 9 tracks with no inter record gaps or file marks till EOT.? I'm guessing you've not digitized any of those? A friend built a custom machine which could be placed on site at the well site.? The tapes would be run to the unit, and then the data stream transmitted to a US based location for analysis.? Made necessary in Canada as they became very aggressive about transmission of such data. In the 70's and 80s when this was in use it was very difficult to transport half inch tapes across the border w/o being challenged because customs was tipped off that the tapes were all potentially banned material. I'm surprised that they have not turned up since they are useful for wells when trying to enhance output. Thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 4 22:37:13 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 20:37:13 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: > I'm surprised that they have not turned up since they are useful for wells when trying to enhance output. seismic data recovery from tape has been going on for a long time From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 22:47:25 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 20:47:25 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/20 8:12 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/4/2020 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/4/20 1:50 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: >>> >> I don't believe that you're missing anything.?? When I process these >> files, I mask off the lower 24 bits as the block length.? A 16MB tape >> block is impossibly large in any case. >> >> --Chuck > Oil logging tapes write 9 tracks with no inter record gaps or file marks > till EOT.? I'm guessing you've not digitized any of those? A couple of years ago, one of the NASA logging units turned up for not much money. Big flight case. Basically consisted of a Kennedy incremental drive (i.e. stepper) brought out to several BNC connectors. My recollection is that the Kennedy 9000-series unit was NRZI and likely 800 bpi. Unlikely that you could get 16MB on a 10.5" reel with that. Probably unreadable on standard tape drives with limited formatter memory. I've also mentioned CDC 7-track "long tapes". I've certainly seen the 9-track analog telemetry tapes also, but they're a much different kettle of fish. --Chuck From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 4 22:58:19 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 20:58:19 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/2020 8:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/20 8:12 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 10/4/2020 4:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >>> On 10/4/20 1:50 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>> I don't believe that you're missing anything.?? When I process these >>> files, I mask off the lower 24 bits as the block length.? A 16MB tape >>> block is impossibly large in any case. >>> >>> --Chuck >> Oil logging tapes write 9 tracks with no inter record gaps or file marks >> till EOT.? I'm guessing you've not digitized any of those? > A couple of years ago, one of the NASA logging units turned up for not > much money. Big flight case. Basically consisted of a Kennedy > incremental drive (i.e. stepper) brought out to several BNC connectors. > > My recollection is that the Kennedy 9000-series unit was NRZI and likely > 800 bpi. Unlikely that you could get 16MB on a 10.5" reel with that. > Probably unreadable on standard tape drives with limited formatter > memory. I've also mentioned CDC 7-track "long tapes". > > I've certainly seen the 9-track analog telemetry tapes also, but they're > a much different kettle of fish. > > --Chuck > The Microdata 1600 with the NRZI interface could write an entire tape of normal "record" data? with a Pertec drive.? We wrote code to write IBM records on our system and make our 360 happy.? One of the debug efforts had a bug in some experimental code that neglected to do the eot order to the controller, and the entire tape was one record. The system did retries on it till the system crashed, then sucked the entire tape into the vacuum columns.? We weren't popular that day. The system I mentioned earlier was at company my partners worked at earlier. I had not seen your earlier no tape gap mentions. Thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Sun Oct 4 23:30:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 21:30:42 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/4/20 8:58 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I had not seen your earlier no tape gap mentions. The old CDC 6000 SCOPE 1LT driver. Since SCOPE user programs use circular buffering, The PP overlay 1LT simply emptied the CM buffer and wrote it, 12-bit word by 12-bit word to the drive controller, so long as the CPU program kept the buffer filled. The problem arose if the program either failed to keep up (e.g. competing programs demanding the CPU) or if an ECS transfer occurred. Where I got involved was with a 4-CPU configuration sharing 4MW of ECS, using the ECS for swap space. ECS transfers completely swamp the read/write pyramid, so the PP gets locked out and can't service the drive. Recovery was doing a backward-read to the BOT or preceding IRG. Lather, rinse, repeat. It was fun to watch and we never solved that one to anyone's satisfaction. I don't know if 1LT survived in NOS. Long NRZI reads/writes are easy, as all that was needed was to keep a XOR of the frames as they're read or written for the LRC. PE and GCR tapes would be a bit thornier, I'd imagine. --Chuck From ccth6600 at gmail.com Sun Oct 4 23:58:58 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 12:58:58 +0800 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: <20201001222804.EE27E273A1@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20201001222804.EE27E273A1@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hi Chen, I just tried the tape drive and sadly it too has the capacitor leakage problem like the CDROM drive. So sorry but I cannot help reading your tapes. Regards Tom Hunter On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 2:05 PM Chenshyh Tsay via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Dear Tom, > > Does your Sun workstation is functional and read QIC -150 cartridge? > I have some old 3M 6150 cartridges that was created by Sun Sparc > workstation in 2000. > One those cartridges, I have some my personal files I like to get them. > If you can you read those cartridges, I can pay some money for you? > > Chen Tsay > > > > > > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Oct 5 00:50:02 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 22:50:02 -0700 Subject: Sun SPARCstation LX boot from CDROM? In-Reply-To: References: <20201001222804.EE27E273A1@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <376503bd-882e-bd81-e310-67f130b34737@snowmoose.com> I may be able to help. I have had mixed success reading QIC tapes. I have encountered two problems reading them. 1. Band failure. There is a band inside the cartridge that keeps the tape taut when drive advances and rewinds the tape. These bands like to fail. I have found replacements that seem to work. 2. Sticky tapes. I have had a lot of problems with the tape sticking and binding as it goes around posts inside the cartridge. I have yet to find a satisfactory way around this. If your tape has the second problem, I can't read it, but may be able to if it doesn't. alan On 10/4/20 9:58 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chen, > I just tried the tape drive and sadly it too has the capacitor leakage > problem like the CDROM drive. > So sorry but I cannot help reading your tapes. > > Regards > Tom Hunter > > > On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 2:05 PM Chenshyh Tsay via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Dear Tom, >> >> Does your Sun workstation is functional and read QIC -150 cartridge? >> I have some old 3M 6150 cartridges that was created by Sun Sparc >> workstation in 2000. >> One those cartridges, I have some my personal files I like to get them. >> If you can you read those cartridges, I can pay some money for you? >> >> Chen Tsay >> >> >> >> >> >> >> From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 01:13:53 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2020 23:13:53 -0700 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 11:42 AM Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sun, Oct 4, 2020 at 10:26 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 2020-Oct-04, at 1:22 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >> >> > More mysteries while poking at the MDP-1000. Spent some time this >> evening >> > working out the rest of the signals on the power harness (I suspect >> inputs >> > for an LTC circuit and a "power good" signal, as well as something >> > connected to a relay on the backplane, probably related to power >> control). >> > >> > There are a lot of unidentifiable ICs on the main CPU logic board and on >> > the backplane, mixed in with bog-standard 7400-series TTL. Curious if >> > anyone has any ideas, as my searches and perusal of >> datasheets/databooks on >> > Bitsavers have turned up nothing. These are all TI-manufactured ICs, >> 1969 >> > manufacturing dates, with "SN48xx" and "SN63xx" part numbers (a few omit >> > the "SN" prefix.) I'm wondering if these are just standard 7400 ICs >> with >> > special codes; for example there are several SN4816's near the edge >> > connector for the I/O bus, where a 7416 might (?) make sense, and from >> some >> > basic probing and following traces I think the pinouts make sense. >> > (Everything's conformal coated so it's a real bear to beep things >> out...) >> > >> > Any ideas? >> >> I have run across TI ICs from that era with odd/unknown series numbering, >> in particular the SN3900 and SN4500 DTL ICs. >> Notably: >> - by pinout they match up with standard DTL series ICs, >> - I have only found these in equipment from one manufacturer: >> calculators built by Canon. >> >> I received a solitary page of datasheet for some of them (by way of a >> Canon service center many years ago), but I have never seen them mentioned >> in TI databooks from the era, even in those sections where they list e.g. >> "other products from TI" and proceed to list little known series and part >> numbers. >> >> So an obvious guess is these were house numbering systems of standard >> parts done for the purchaser/equipment manufacturer but with TI's format >> scheme rather than a format specified by the manufacturer. Another guess >> would be standard parts tested and selected for purchaser-specified >> parameters, although that seems a little excessive for these cases. >> > > Yeah, either of those options seems a likely possibility. It definitely > seems like they were building this thing for bulletproof operation, so > maybe it really is the latter. > > >> >> The 54/7400 series originated with TI in 65, I'm not aware of them >> producing any other TTL series, other than perhaps second-sourcing some >> other manufacturer's. >> I guess that's another possibility - another manuf's TTL series, labeled >> differently. >> >> Odd that this Motorola CPU is filled with ICs manufactured by TI. >> > > Yeah, the irony of this was not lost on me. Other than the aforementioned > linear ICs in the core modules, every IC in this has a TI logo on it. > > >> >> It's conceivable, although it seems less probable, that they're DTL >> rather than TTL. >> >> On the whole, best guess would seem to be 7400-series inside. >> > > Yeah, I'm guessing (hoping) 7400 as well, especially since there are > actual 74xx-labeled ICs in here casually mixed with the 48xx and 63xx. > > A thought occurred, that if I get desperate I could remove a few of the > ICs and attempt identification using the IC tester I have. Not going to do > that unless I can't figure it out any other way. The good news is there > aren't too many varieties. I haven't done a full inventory but there's not > more than a dozen or so different types in here. > > >> >> -- >> >> On another issue, did you trace the +/-15V lines to the core >> address/inhibit drivers? >> Could some of the remaining wires from the PS be other core supplies - >> 15V was a little low compared to most core systems I've seen. >> >> > I did manage to trace the +/-15V lines to the drivers on the core memory. > I don't believe any of the extra signals are other voltages -- three of > them go to the CPU board, one goes to the aforementioned mystery relay, one > goes to a tiny bit of logic on the mainboard (I suspect some manner of > LTC), and the last goes to a trace that just dead-ends and goes nowhere at > all. The very little documentation I have on the CPU itself suggests that > the supply provided only +5 and +/-15. There are two sets of power rails > for each; the first goes to the CPU, front panel, and two memory slots, the > second set goes to the other two memory slots. I suspect that upgrading > past 8K of memory required a power supply upgrade. > > - Josh > > > Just made a minor breakthrough; a random usenet post suggested that the MDP-1000 was just a rebadged General Automation SPC-12, and so it is. I suspect the internals of the unit I have (which is badged as an "MDP-6650" on the rear) are a bit different than either the MDP-1000 or the SPC-12 (and I'm no closer to finding answers to my IC identification questions), but it at least gives me another avenue to explore... (Bitsavers has a few items: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalAutomation/spc12/) - Josh From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Mon Oct 5 02:34:20 2020 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 07:34:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: CDC/Seagate Sabre, Elite and Wren disk drive documents on bitsavers In-Reply-To: <239abf16-99fb-4912-892e-18e3ee6feeb4@bitsavers.org> References: <4F6E8CCA-3774-41C8-ACBF-741D4708F747@avanthar.com> <239abf16-99fb-4912-892e-18e3ee6feeb4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <219009140.2859827.1601883260941@mail.yahoo.com> Hi list, i don't know who in the end made available all the documents for the CDC/Seagate Sabre IPI and SMD disk drives, but I am very happy that they are finally there for the public! Thanks a lot to the document providers and Al for maintaining bitsavers! Best regards, Pierre ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.digitalheritage.de From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Oct 5 00:51:34 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 01:51:34 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> References: , , <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 16:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > A 16MB tape block is impossibly large in any case. The HP 3000 mag tape diagnostic attempts to write a single record from BOT to EOT, which unfortunately fails under simulation due to the 16 MB limitation. In hindsight, it would have been better to accommodate record lengths corresponding to the highest density and longest reel length, which I think would need 28 bits. Four bits for metadata identifier would still have been be good enough, and one of those should have been dedicated to "private data" that would appear invisible to programs running under simulation (and could be used to include information about the tape image with the tape image). -- Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 5 08:10:46 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 09:10:46 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7D845239-8143-42AE-8AAC-77E3FA0384EA@comcast.net> > On Oct 5, 2020, at 12:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/4/20 8:58 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > >> I had not seen your earlier no tape gap mentions. > > The old CDC 6000 SCOPE 1LT driver. Since SCOPE user programs use > circular buffering, The PP overlay 1LT simply emptied the CM buffer and > wrote it, 12-bit word by 12-bit word to the drive controller, so long as > the CPU program kept the buffer filled. At least on NOS, that's not how long block handling works. It uses 1MT (the main tape driver) with 1LT as a helper in a separate PP. Each reads a portion of the long block into its PP memory, hand off to the other PP to continue reading while in parallel the first PP transfers the piece it read into central memory. This kind of ping-pong algorithm is needed because the block transfer operations (both I/O and memory copy) are blocking. They can be split up into individual word transfers but that isn't how the problem is handled in this case, and possibly that wouldn't be fast enough. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Oct 5 10:50:42 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 10:50:42 -0500 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5F7B40D2.1010406@pico-systems.com> On 10/04/2020 11:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The problem arose if the program either failed to keep up > (e.g. competing programs demanding the CPU) or if an ECS > transfer occurred. Where I got involved was with a 4-CPU > configuration sharing 4MW of ECS, using the ECS for swap > space. ECS transfers completely swamp the read/write > pyramid, so the PP gets locked out and can't service the > drive. Recovery was doing a backward-read to the BOT or > preceding IRG. Lather, rinse, repeat. It was fun to watch > and we never solved that one to anyone's satisfaction. I can't imagine any way to fix this except to put a buffer memory in the PP big enough to hold a few records of tape data. Probably played hob with disk transfers, too, except that wasn't as visible. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Oct 5 12:01:47 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:01:47 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <5F7B40D2.1010406@pico-systems.com> References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> <5F7B40D2.1010406@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Oct 5, 2020, at 11:50 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/04/2020 11:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> The problem arose if the program either failed to keep up (e.g. competing programs demanding the CPU) or if an ECS transfer occurred. Where I got involved was with a 4-CPU configuration sharing 4MW of ECS, using the ECS for swap space. ECS transfers completely swamp the read/write pyramid, so the PP gets locked out and can't service the drive. Recovery was doing a backward-read to the BOT or preceding IRG. Lather, rinse, repeat. It was fun to watch and we never solved that one to anyone's satisfaction. > I can't imagine any way to fix this except to put a buffer memory in the PP big enough to hold a few records of tape data. Probably played hob with disk transfers, too, except that wasn't as visible. > > Jon Actually, on a full memory 6000 series system (32 banks) there is more than enough bandwidth to service an ECS transfer and other things too. ECS runs at 10 MWords per second. The bandwidth per bank is 1 MW/s so with 32 banks that only takes 1/3rd of the system bandwidth. I don't know the 6400 memory controller, but the Stunt Box on the 6600 will happily schedule all the memory requests, whether from CPU, PPs, or ECS, and fairly issue them to the banks. It would be interesting to run a simulation for that. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 5 12:10:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 10:10:01 -0700 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <83baeb39-f2e7-d576-e7af-29f01beac89f@bitsavers.org> On 10/4/20 11:13 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > Just made a minor breakthrough; a random usenet post suggested that the > MDP-1000 was just a rebadged General Automation SPC-12, and so it is. I > suspect the internals of the unit I have (which is badged as an "MDP-6650" > on the rear) are a bit different than either the MDP-1000 or the SPC-12 > (and I'm no closer to finding answers to my IC identification questions), > but it at least gives me another avenue to explore... > > (Bitsavers has a few items: > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalAutomation/spc12/) https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=spc-12 From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 5 12:23:36 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:23:36 -0400 Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) In-Reply-To: <83baeb39-f2e7-d576-e7af-29f01beac89f@bitsavers.org> References: <83baeb39-f2e7-d576-e7af-29f01beac89f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/20 11:13 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > Just made a minor breakthrough; a random usenet post suggested that the > > MDP-1000 was just a rebadged General Automation SPC-12, and so it is. I > > suspect the internals of the unit I have (which is badged as an > "MDP-6650" > > on the rear) are a bit different than either the MDP-1000 or the SPC-12 > > (and I'm no closer to finding answers to my IC identification questions), > > but it at least gives me another avenue to explore... > > > > (Bitsavers has a few items: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalAutomation/spc12/) > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=spc-12 Is this a case of not being able to find the correct TI or Motorola IC guide or is there something unique / OEM about this one? I do have some late 60's early 70's IC guides of these manufacturers that I can check, original bound paper copies. Please advise. Bill From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Oct 5 13:03:19 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 18:03:19 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Identifying mystery TI ICs (Motorola MDP-1000 investigation continues...) References: <335222809.1978908.1601920999483.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <335222809.1978908.1601920999483@mail.yahoo.com> The making of this computer? perhaps explain why I never had someone wander in and talk about designing or building a MOTOROLA MINICOMPUTER ....Ed# On Monday, October 5, 2020 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 1:10 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/4/20 11:13 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > Just made a minor breakthrough; a random usenet post suggested that the > > MDP-1000 was just a rebadged General Automation SPC-12, and so it is.? I > > suspect the internals of the unit I have (which is badged as an > "MDP-6650" > > on the rear) are a bit different than either the MDP-1000 or the SPC-12 > > (and I'm no closer to finding answers to my IC identification questions), > > but it at least gives me another avenue to explore... > > > > (Bitsavers has a few items: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalAutomation/spc12/) > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/search/?s=spc-12 Is this a case of not being able to find the correct TI or Motorola IC guide or is there something unique / OEM about this one?? I do have some late 60's early 70's IC guides of these manufacturers that I can check, original bound paper copies.? Please advise. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 10:25:05 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 08:25:05 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> On 10/4/20 10:51 PM, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote: > On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 16:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> A 16MB tape block is impossibly large in any case. > > The HP 3000 mag tape diagnostic attempts to write a single record from BOT > to EOT, which unfortunately fails under simulation due to the 16 MB > limitation. In hindsight, it would have been better to accommodate record > lengths corresponding to the highest density and longest reel length, which > I think would need 28 bits. Four bits for metadata identifier would still > have been be good enough, and one of those should have been dedicated to > "private data" that would appear invisible to programs running under > simulation (and could be used to include information about the tape image > with the tape image). That's interesting. Looking at my own code for .TAP files, I see the following: #define TAP_FILEMARK 0x0 // 0 = filemark #define TAP_EOM 0xffffffff // -1 = end of medium #define TAP_ERASE_GAP 0xfffffffe // -2 = erase gap #define TAP_ERROR_FLAG 0x80000000 // error flag bit #define TAP_LENGTH_MASK 0x00ffffff // mask for length So increasing the mask for block length wouldn't seem to be a problem, assuming that SIMH could support it. There may be other high-order bit meanings assigned, but I've not run into them. --Chuck From lars at nocrew.org Mon Oct 5 13:07:29 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2020 18:07:29 +0000 Subject: Thompson's Space Travel running Message-ID: <7wa6x0sg0u.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Hello, Ken Thompson's space exploration simulation Space Travel will now run on the SIMH PDP-7 simulator: http://sebras.se/space-travel-2.mp4 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 5 14:10:33 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 15:10:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone want to part with a DEC MXV11-B (M7195) and/or M8012 (BDV11)? Message-ID: <20201005191033.8A93F18C10C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Hanson > There's an MXV11-B (M7195) on its way to me. :) Wow, you've got a really good fairy god-mother! I've been trying to buy one on eBait for some time now (in part to have one to take a photo of for the CHWiki), and no luck - they always get bid up into the sky. And here someone has one for you! Life is unfair! Noel From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 5 15:04:51 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 13:04:51 -0700 Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> > We need to differentiate between Retail Sales BY MICROSOFT, V > manufacture > and WHOLESALE sales by Microsoft to OEMs for them to retail. With a > WIDE > variety of different packagings, ranging from personalized to the OEM > (Compaq, Zenith, Morrow, etc.), very generic, and even packaging that > would not be out of place for a Microsoft retail sale. Fred, That is an interesting issue that you bring up. This is a picture of the "retail box" I am speaking about: https://diskettes.pcjs.org/pcx86/sys/dos/microsoft/3.20/MSDOS320-BOX.jpg While I admit it could have been an OEM release the box art and packaging would make it seem a bit over the top. I have to double check if it also includes the easel acrylic box like earlier MS products or not. > But, if you have reason to believe that your copies came directly from > Microsoft, not through an OEM, OR came through a retail store that had > no affiliation with an OEM, then I need to revise my perception of when > Microsoft started to retail DOS. Has anybody ever seen a retail price > list or RETAIL SALES (V product) ad? (write/call to purchase) > YES, I can be TOTALLY WRONG. I felt the elephant's tail and smelled > the > region, but did not have the big picture. Unfortunately, even my NOS items are second hand, for the most part, so providence is something I cannot guarantee. I have seen other packaging from OEMs for the same dos (e.g. TI) and it is definitely much more generic then this. It is just a pair of red binders with slip cases. -Ali From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 5 15:50:14 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 15:50:14 -0500 Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> Message-ID: <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> The picture referenced is for an aftermarket version of DOS. The retail versions came in fancy white boxes with hologram logos. I can probably take a picture of one in my warehouse, if you need it. Cindy On 10/5/20 3:04 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> We need to differentiate between Retail Sales BY MICROSOFT, V >> manufacture >> and WHOLESALE sales by Microsoft to OEMs for them to retail. With a >> WIDE >> variety of different packagings, ranging from personalized to the OEM >> (Compaq, Zenith, Morrow, etc.), very generic, and even packaging that >> would not be out of place for a Microsoft retail sale. > Fred, > > That is an interesting issue that you bring up. This is a picture of the > "retail box" I am speaking about: > > https://diskettes.pcjs.org/pcx86/sys/dos/microsoft/3.20/MSDOS320-BOX.jpg > > While I admit it could have been an OEM release the box art and packaging > would make it seem a bit over the top. I have to double check if it also > includes the easel acrylic box like earlier MS products or not. > > >> But, if you have reason to believe that your copies came directly from >> Microsoft, not through an OEM, OR came through a retail store that had >> no affiliation with an OEM, then I need to revise my perception of when >> Microsoft started to retail DOS. Has anybody ever seen a retail price >> list or RETAIL SALES (V product) ad? (write/call to purchase) >> YES, I can be TOTALLY WRONG. I felt the elephant's tail and smelled >> the >> region, but did not have the big picture. > Unfortunately, even my NOS items are second hand, for the most part, so > providence is something I cannot guarantee. I have seen other packaging from > OEMs for the same dos (e.g. TI) and it is definitely much more generic then > this. It is just a pair of red binders with slip cases. > > -Ali > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 5 16:04:08 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:04:08 -0700 Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <00af01d69b5b$11d577a0$358066e0$@net> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy > Croxton via cctalk > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2020 1:50 PM > To: Ali via cctalk > Subject: Re: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations > > The picture referenced is for an aftermarket version of DOS. The retail > versions came in fancy white boxes with hologram logos. I can probably > take a picture of one in my warehouse, if you need it. > > > Cindy Cindy, You have a fancy white boxed version of MS-DOS 3.20 with holograms? In that case I would love to see a picture of it. My guess is you are referring to MS-DOS 5.00 to 6.22 versions that came in the white boxes with the authenticity holograms. -Ali From geneb at deltasoft.com Mon Oct 5 16:23:35 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 14:23:35 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 5 Oct 2020, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > The picture referenced is for an aftermarket version of DOS. The retail > versions came in fancy white boxes with hologram logos. I can probably take a > picture of one in my warehouse, if you need it. > Do you happen to have any boxed copies of 3.30/1 or 5.0 for sale by chance? Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 5 16:28:40 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 16:28:40 -0500 Subject: DOS Versions (Was: IBM PC-DOS 2.10 explorations In-Reply-To: References: <0Me96G-1k1ZJ70Lja-00PuI0@mrelay.perfora.net> <009201d69b52$ca2f2840$5e8d78c0$@net> <45a99bd4-14e4-5f9b-25f5-1087a3267bbb@elecplus.com> Message-ID: https://elecshopper.com/en/software/242-dos-6-22-and-windows-3-1-on-3-5-inch-floppy-diskettes.html This is the only OS I have listed right now. My computer crashed, and after YEARS of MS, I now am learning to use Linux. Very steep curve for me! As soon as I get photo editors and other stuff installed and learn to use them, I will start adding products again. I do have some old cassette software for Tandy, and some other goodies. I will post a msg here when they go live. Cindy On 10/5/20 4:23 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 5 Oct 2020, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > >> The picture referenced is for an aftermarket version of DOS. The >> retail versions came in fancy white boxes with hologram logos. I can >> probably take a picture of one in my warehouse, if you need it. >> > Do you happen to have any boxed copies of 3.30/1 or 5.0 for sale by > chance? > > Thanks! > > g. > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 5 17:25:55 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 15:25:55 -0700 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/5/20 2:06 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > The other way to handle it, should we not be able to steal bits which > should be plan A, is to have a metadata type that says 'append this to > the prior record' which would remove the limit entirely. There's a good idea! Instead of putting headers on an all-tape record, just archive the raw data and call it that. Even though I can handle a long block this way (assuming my SDHC card can keep up, I've never run across this. My controller does double-buffering while reading. --Chuck From dittman at dittman.net Mon Oct 5 23:19:26 2020 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 23:19:26 -0500 Subject: VT525 power switch Message-ID: <5a05de7e-95a3-5a49-6a4f-c132dcc4b58c@dittman.net> I have a VT525 that I couldn't turn off. I took it apart and there's an adapter that connects the metal rod off the button on the front to the power switch inside. The adapter has crumbled and it feels like it was wax but it may have just been some plastic that has severely deteriorated. Before I try to work up some kind of replacement, has anyone already designed a 3D-printed replacement? I don't have a 3D printer but do have a friend that could print one for me. Otherwise, I'll see if I can come up with something. -- Eric Dittman From imp at bsdimp.com Mon Oct 5 16:06:50 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2020 15:06:50 -0600 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> References: <82895d6a-002c-9a2a-9494-bb854da9f8e8@sydex.com> <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 9:25 AM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 10/4/20 10:51 PM, J. David Bryan via cctech wrote: > > On Sunday, October 4, 2020 at 16:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > >> A 16MB tape block is impossibly large in any case. > > > > The HP 3000 mag tape diagnostic attempts to write a single record from > BOT > > to EOT, which unfortunately fails under simulation due to the 16 MB > > limitation. In hindsight, it would have been better to accommodate > record > > lengths corresponding to the highest density and longest reel length, > which > > I think would need 28 bits. Four bits for metadata identifier would > still > > have been be good enough, and one of those should have been dedicated to > > "private data" that would appear invisible to programs running under > > simulation (and could be used to include information about the tape > image > > with the tape image). > > That's interesting. Looking at my own code for .TAP files, I see the > following: > > #define TAP_FILEMARK 0x0 // 0 = filemark > #define TAP_EOM 0xffffffff // -1 = end of medium > #define TAP_ERASE_GAP 0xfffffffe // -2 = erase gap > #define TAP_ERROR_FLAG 0x80000000 // error flag bit > #define TAP_LENGTH_MASK 0x00ffffff // mask for length > > So increasing the mask for block length wouldn't seem to be a problem, > assuming that SIMH could support it. There may be other high-order bit > meanings assigned, but I've not run into them. > The other way to handle it, should we not be able to steal bits which should be plan A, is to have a metadata type that says 'append this to the prior record' which would remove the limit entirely. Warner From jdbryan at acm.org Tue Oct 6 02:34:56 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 03:34:56 -0400 Subject: 9 track tapes and block sizes In-Reply-To: <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> References: , , <27cecd2f-842e-1477-6374-7d2319199b67@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Monday, October 5, 2020 at 8:25, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > So increasing the mask for block length wouldn't seem to be a problem, > assuming that SIMH could support it. SIMH could be written to support it (I'm the maintainer-by-default of the tape handling portion of SIMH). I don't know of any existing simulators that depend on the length being exactly 24 bits. The tape handling library defines an integer type to hold tape record lengths (it's a 32-bit unsigned value), and simulators are supposed to declare tape record length variables of this type. So extending the record length field to 28 bits shouldn't cause problems. The current library assumes that anything that's not one of the three defined metadata markers (EOF, EOM, or erase gap) is a tape record length, so there's no error recovery for undefined markers. This could be changed, however, so that unrecognized markers would be ignored, i.e., transparently skipped when reading or writing, as long as those markers contained the length of the record to be skipped. For example, if the upper four bits were dedicated to the marker type field and the length field expanded to 28 bits, then we could have something like: Type Length Meaning ---- ------- ------------------------------------------------ 0 0 tape mark 0 >0 "good" data record 1 >0 \ ... | undefined records (reserved for SIMH) 7 >0 / 8 >0 "bad" data record 9 >0 \ ... | user-defined records D >0 / E any user-defined single-word marker F FFFFFFF end of medium F FFFFFFE erase gap F other undefined single word marker (reserved for SIMH) The type E single-word marker and record types 9-D (that must contain record lengths at both ends of the record) would be transparently ignored by SIMH. These could be used for tape information or other uses devised by the community. -- Dave From microtechdart at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 08:29:44 2020 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:29:44 -0500 Subject: Vintage 1976 Digital Computer Controls, Inc. D-116 Computer Maintenance Manual Message-ID: Just wondering if anyone here might have been the winning bidder on this one... https://entrex480.blogspot.com/2020/10/vintage-1976-digital-computer-controls.html https://www.ebay.com/itm/284026555447 -- Best always, AJ Palmgren http://Entrex480.com From gavin at learn.bio Tue Oct 6 09:10:43 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 09:10:43 -0500 Subject: VT525 power switch In-Reply-To: <5a05de7e-95a3-5a49-6a4f-c132dcc4b58c@dittman.net> References: <5a05de7e-95a3-5a49-6a4f-c132dcc4b58c@dittman.net> Message-ID: If it's small, something like Sugru might work. On Mon, Oct 5, 2020 at 11:19 PM Eric Dittman via cctalk wrote: > > I have a VT525 that I couldn't turn off. I took it apart and there's > an adapter that connects the metal rod off the button on the front to > the power switch inside. The adapter has crumbled and it feels like > it was wax but it may have just been some plastic that has severely > deteriorated. > > Before I try to work up some kind of replacement, has anyone already > designed a 3D-printed replacement? I don't have a 3D printer but do > have a friend that could print one for me. Otherwise, I'll see if I > can come up with something. > -- > Eric Dittman From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue Oct 6 09:40:50 2020 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 08:40:50 -0600 Subject: Vintage 1976 Digital Computer Controls, Inc. D-116 Computer Maintenance Manual In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3b893067-0a54-1d9f-1741-8e0a0acea186@Wild-Hare.com> I did not bid on it but are you looking for the DCC-116 Maintenance manuals Volume I and Volume II? (contact me off list) Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. bkr at WildHareComputers.com On 10/6/2020 7:29 AM, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > Just wondering if anyone here might have been the winning bidder on this > one... > > https://entrex480.blogspot.com/2020/10/vintage-1976-digital-computer-controls.html > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/284026555447 > From seanellis9 at gmail.com Tue Oct 6 12:50:15 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 12:50:15 -0500 Subject: Apple Lisa Software List Message-ID: Hey all, the past couple of weeks I've been working on compiling a list of all known Lisa software, and trying to determine if it was for the 1 or 2, if it ran on Office System, XENIX, UniPlus, etc. and the dumped status of each title. If anyone's got any tips or pointers, let me know and I'll get the list updated. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1STG0Le_8dMHRLf026x6YfXzRQm2hD0igeZVb2Hx0Lxo/edit?usp=sharing From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 6 15:24:23 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 13:24:23 -0700 Subject: Books I no longer need References: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> I have some books I no longer need. Is this a good place to offer them? WordPerfect Wiorkbook for IBM Personal Computers Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0 User's Guide and Reference Microsoft MS-DOS 5.0 Getting Started WordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Reference (along with a CD) WordPerfect Add-Ons Catalog WordPerfect Software Product Catalog WordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Getting Started for the New User WordPerfect Shell Version 4.0 DOS User's Guide WordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Learning WordPerfect WordPerfect for UNIX 7 Installation and Administration Guide WordPerfect for UNIX 7 User Guide WordPerfect for UNIX 7 Clipart Guide Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 6 15:30:59 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 13:30:59 -0700 Subject: Books I no longer need In-Reply-To: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1N6tSF-1kRdlJ2jDr-018HtJ@mrelay.perfora.net> Welcome to the list Van. -Ali -------- Original message --------From: Van Snyder via cctalk Date: 10/6/20 1:24 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Books I no longer need I have some books I no longer need. Is this a good place to offer them?WordPerfect Wiorkbook for IBM Personal ComputersMicrosoft MS-DOS 5.0 User's Guide and ReferenceMicrosoft MS-DOS 5.0 Getting StartedWordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Reference (along with a CD)WordPerfect Add-Ons CatalogWordPerfect Software Product CatalogWordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Getting Started for the New UserWordPerfect Shell Version 4.0 DOS User's GuideWordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Learning WordPerfectWordPerfect for UNIX 7 Installation and Administration GuideWordPerfect for UNIX 7 User GuideWordPerfect for UNIX 7 Clipart GuideVan Snydervan.snyder at sbcglobal.net From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 6 18:47:32 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 16:47:32 -0700 Subject: Books I no longer need In-Reply-To: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: A few books I no longer need Varian Data 620/i Systems Computer ManualMicroprogramming HP 21 MX Computers On Tue, 2020-10-06 at 13:24 -0700, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I have some books I no longer need. Is this a good place to offer > them? > WordPerfect Wiorkbook for IBM Personal ComputersMicrosoft MS-DOS 5.0 > User's Guide and ReferenceMicrosoft MS-DOS 5.0 Getting > StartedWordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Reference (along with a > CD)WordPerfect Add-Ons CatalogWordPerfect Software Product > CatalogWordPerfect Version 6.0 DOS Getting Started for the New > UserWordPerfect Shell Version 4.0 DOS User's GuideWordPerfect Version > 6.0 DOS Learning WordPerfectWordPerfect for UNIX 7 Installation and > Administration GuideWordPerfect for UNIX 7 User GuideWordPerfect for > UNIX 7 Clipart Guide > Van Snydervan.snyder at sbcglobal.net > From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 6 20:10:28 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 06 Oct 2020 18:10:28 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 simulator References: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> In about 1974, for my senior undergraduate project, I wrote microcode to convince a Varian V70 that it was actually an IBM 1130. Being substantially more modern hardware, it was much faster than a real 1130. If anybody wants microcode and flow diagrams, and listings for the I/O simulation (which ran in 620/f mode), I'm happy to send them. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 6 21:14:34 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 6 Oct 2020 22:14:34 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment Message-ID: Working on cleaning up my RX02 drives: I've taken the 8 inch floppy units out of the case/chassis and have been cleaning dust and such off the whole assemblies. One thing I noticed: There is a pad opposite the head that comes down when a solenoid is energized to provide pressure against the read head. Makes sense, it also has a pad that presses against the floppy disc itself, probably to keep it from jittering. However I noticed on both heads that the bracket is adjusted all the way down. This means that even when the solenoid is not energized the head pad is pressing against the disk and pushing the disk against the head. Is this normal? I would think this would result in the floppy always being pressed against the head and quickly wearing out the disk. The whole point is to let the disk float against the head, only letting the pad push things into contact when doing a read. Do I have this right, and is adjusting that that assembly proper when the pad puck is not touching the disk when up, but is touching it when down? C From steven at malikoff.com Wed Oct 7 00:39:30 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:39:30 +1000 Subject: IBM 1130 simulator In-Reply-To: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <850059b075084d6345c488e36ad9ae0a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Van said > In about 1974, for my senior undergraduate project, I wrote microcode > to convince a Varian V70 that it was actually an IBM 1130. > > Being substantially more modern hardware, it was much faster than a > real 1130. > > If anybody wants microcode and flow diagrams, and listings for the I/O > simulation (which ran in 620/f mode), I'm happy to send them. > > Van Snyder > van.snyder at sbcglobal.net It sounds interesting, if somewhat esoteric. Why not put it on Github? There it can be preserved (we hope), searched, perused, and by the curious, downloaded :) Steve From mosst at SDF.ORG Wed Oct 7 00:59:40 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:59:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? Message-ID: Hi All, I've recently bought a TU56 for my PDP-8/e, and am looking for some advice on getting it to work. Over the course of a few weeks I fixed odds and ends with the drive (motor run capacitors, damaged wires, transistors, etc.), and for a few days the right drive worked very reliably. I could read existing tapes, write to them, and format fresh tapes. (A write-up to this point is here: www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?76935) (A good source for new motor run capacitors: https://www.ebay.com/itm/142631210678) However, this changed when I wrote a file to an existing tape, only to find that the directory structure had somehow been corrupted in the process. Out of curiosity I mounted a scratch tape that I knew I could format before and tried to format it again, the result was a BLOCK NUMBER ERROR PHASE 4. When running the TD8E MAINDEC it's apparent why - when set to display the block number in the accumulator for the tape I tried to format, every third bit appears to stick or glitch out. The tape I think I corrupted however appears to count up and down the blocks correctly. (Video here: https://streamable.com/bh8f7p) I tried swapping the G888s around to see if it made any difference, but nothing changed. I then turned my attention to the cabling and the TD8E. Somewhere along the line things got worse, and now running TDFRMT just results in a "SETUP?" error when trying to format a tape. I've tried running the TD8E MAINDEC (DHTDAB), and managed to get it to pass the following tests: -Operator Intervention -Data Register -Command Register -Initialize -SDLC, SDLD, SDRC, and SDRC and AC Clear -Single Line Skip Instruction and Logic Test -Quad Line Skip Instruction and Logic Test However, once it reaches the Timing Error Skip Instruction and Logic Test, it fails with the following: >TIMING ERROR SKIP INSTRUCTION AND LOGIC >TIMING ERROR STATUS BIT NOT SET IN COMMAND REGISTER > >TIMING ERROR DOES NOT CLEAR WRITE FLIP/FLOP I also found some tests that check the Data and Command Registers by accepting input from the switches and displaying the result in the MQ. These work fine, although though doing so I discovered that I had stuck bits on the MQ on one of my Major Registers boards. I swapped with a spare for now and will look at that later. Lastly I found a copy of the source for TDFRMT so I could see what exactly was causing the "SETUP?" error. I noticed there's several things that can cause that error (the JMPs to ERCHK), so I replaced the first JMP ERCHK with a halt and sure enough it did halt there. /SEE IF THE DRIVE IS OK 003224 6774 RSTSM, SDLC /LOAD CR TO CLEAR TIMEING ERROR 003225 6775 SDLD /LOAD DATA BUFFER TO CLEAR S Q FLAGS 003226 1162 TAD DT0400 /SET WRITE 003227 1027 TAD DTA /GET UNIT 003230 3257 DCA SAV /STORE IT AWAY 003231 1257 TAD SAV 003232 6771 SDSS 003233 5232 JMP .-1 003234 6774 SDLC 003235 1257 TAD SAV 003236 6774 SDLC /LOAD THE TRANSPORT 003237 6776 SDRC /READ THE COMMAND REGISTER AND CHECK IT 003240 7006 RTL 003241 7004 RAL 003242 7500 SMA /CHECK WRITE TO BE SET 003243 5260 JMP ERCHK /WRITE IS NOT SET <<<---Halts here if changed to HLT. 003244 7004 RAL /CHECK WLO 003245 7510 SPA 003246 5260 JMP ERCHK /WLO 003247 7004 RAL /CHECK SELECT AND TIMING ERROR 003250 7710 SPA CLA 003251 5260 JMP ERCHK /SELECT OR TIMING ERROR 003252 4777' JMS NUDTA /CHECK OTHER DRIVE IF ANY 003253 5213 JMP RSTSM-11 /CHECK OTHER DRIVE 003254 5655 JMP I .+1 003255 1400 STMK 003256 0000 CNTERL, 0 003257 0000 SAV, 0 Does anyone have any hints on what I should check from here? Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Oct 7 02:45:29 2020 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:45:29 +0200 Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <424e032f-4931-e04e-d4e1-910bc1951716@greenmail.ch> > Does anyone have any hints on what I should check from here? > > I have seen both open-circuit magtape heads, and reedswitches that do not operate correctly anymore. Luckily in my latest TU56 it was just the reedswitch.. Jos From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 04:06:25 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:06:25 +0100 Subject: IBM 1130 simulator In-Reply-To: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <00ee01d69c89$231c5400$6954fc00$@gmail.com> Van, I think the IBM 1130 group would be interested. https://groups.google.com/g/ibm1130 Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Van Snyder via > cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2020 02:10 > To: Classic Computer Talk > Subject: IBM 1130 simulator > > In about 1974, for my senior undergraduate project, I wrote microcode to > convince a Varian V70 that it was actually an IBM 1130. > > Being substantially more modern hardware, it was much faster than a real > 1130. > > If anybody wants microcode and flow diagrams, and listings for the I/O > simulation (which ran in 620/f mode), I'm happy to send them. > > Van Snyder > van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From petermallan at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 04:07:40 2020 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:07:40 +0100 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 Message-ID: Hi folks, I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to be run on RSX-11M. RJE/HASP 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. Cheers Peter Allan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Oct 7 08:21:35 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:21:35 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Look at the Shugart 800 manual. It shows a similar adjustment for the pad. The head may still touch the disk though when the pad is lifted on the 800. Maybe not a good idea but how it was done. Do make sure the pad is clean and flat. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chris Zach via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, October 6, 2020 7:14 PM To: CCTalk mailing list Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment Working on cleaning up my RX02 drives: I've taken the 8 inch floppy units out of the case/chassis and have been cleaning dust and such off the whole assemblies. One thing I noticed: There is a pad opposite the head that comes down when a solenoid is energized to provide pressure against the read head. Makes sense, it also has a pad that presses against the floppy disc itself, probably to keep it from jittering. However I noticed on both heads that the bracket is adjusted all the way down. This means that even when the solenoid is not energized the head pad is pressing against the disk and pushing the disk against the head. Is this normal? I would think this would result in the floppy always being pressed against the head and quickly wearing out the disk. The whole point is to let the disk float against the head, only letting the pad push things into contact when doing a read. Do I have this right, and is adjusting that that assembly proper when the pad puck is not touching the disk when up, but is touching it when down? C From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 08:35:41 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:35:41 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1e1b7bbf-20fd-6546-aeb7-cb715b1abbba@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, thanks! My guess is without pressure the disk just floats along the head, the problem I was running into was that the disks would get grooves in them after running in the floppy for awhile and the head would get dirty. Probably because the head was pressed against the same track constantly as the pad was always down. Finishing up the cleaning today, will then check the system and see what works.... C On 10/7/2020 9:21 AM, dwight wrote: > Look at the Shugart 800 manual. It shows a similar adjustment for the > pad. The head may still touch the disk though when the pad is lifted on > the 800. Maybe not a good idea but how it was done. Do make sure the pad > is clean and flat. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 08:41:48 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:41:48 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk wrote: > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > be run on RSX-11M. > > RJE/HASP > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator I used to do this with specialty hardware... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf ... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780 emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11. ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license. While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex - the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different COMBOARD models). That last bit would require deep understanding of the original hardware. There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device name escapes me). > My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh > to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the > obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. I think the idea is fantastic. At the very least, after you identify a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package can talk to, for the PDP-11 side. I have no idea what sort of sync serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd need. This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of plumbing to get operational. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 08:46:25 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:46:25 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what they were? On 10/7/2020 9:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk > wrote: >> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to >> be run on RSX-11M. >> >> RJE/HASP >> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > I used to do this with specialty hardware... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf > > ... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780 > emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial > interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11. > ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we > had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license. > > While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from > Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex > - the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or > Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus > a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different > COMBOARD models). That last bit would require deep understanding of > the original hardware. > > There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other > vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device > name escapes me). > >> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh >> to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the >> obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. > > I think the idea is fantastic. At the very least, after you identify > a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be > emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package > can talk to, for the PDP-11 side. I have no idea what sort of sync > serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a > TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd > need. > > This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of > plumbing to get operational. > > -ethan > From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 08:54:52 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:54:52 +0200 Subject: Handheld systems archive CD-ROM Message-ID: <87blhe9m4z.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi all, Am wondering if anybody knows how to find a copy of the "Handheld Systems Archives CD-ROM" that was sold through the domain cdpubs.com 20-30 ywars ago. /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 08:56:17 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:56:17 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals Message-ID: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi again, Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a digital format. /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 09:03:53 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:03:53 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail Message-ID: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> And one more thing, Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the PO machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just acting as a server. Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I did see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have lost the link. Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? /Tomas From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 7 09:14:45 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:14:45 -0500 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> On 10/7/2020 8:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk > wrote: >> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to >> be run on RSX-11M. >> >> RJE/HASP >> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > I used to do this with specialty hardware... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf > >> ... >> My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh >> to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the >> obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. > > I think the idea is fantastic. At the very least, after you identify > a suitable software package for your target, there would need to be > emulation written for whatever sync serial devices that the package > can talk to, for the PDP-11 side. I have no idea what sort of sync > serial emulation is provided by Hercules, but if you can configure a > TCP socket that pretends to be a BSC port, then that's what you'd > need. > > This is eminently do-able, but would likely require a fair bit of > plumbing to get operational. > > -ethan > Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be present in SimH. I think both support some level of TCP, so you might be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along the way. But that would indeed still leave the software question from the original post. I remembered reading a man page for 2780/3780 emulation under UNIX back in the day (turns out it was for AT&T PWB UNIX), and found it: http://quintile.net/pwb/rje_guide.pdf Manual Code seems to exist in http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/spencer_pwb.tar.gz (And maybe other copies of PWB UNIX at tuhs.org) And then there is this, too, from 15-17 years ago, which would take work to move to the PDP-11, of course, as this is a PC program. https://hercules-390.yahoogroups.narkive.com/gGgUdOKm/rje80-3780-emulator-for-hercules-beta-version-available It still seems to exist in the files area of hercules-390 in groups.io under the "Yahoo Group files archive". I'd love to do the same thing with a UNIVAC 1004 talking to an 1108 (actually, an IBM 1410 with a telegraph attachment emulating the 1004), but I don't think the current modern OS/2200 emulation would support it. ;) JRJ From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 09:16:52 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:16:52 +0100 Subject: Mail In-Reply-To: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> Thomas, This API connection for cc:mail is Lotus VIM, vendor independent mail except only lotus every implemented it. Somewhere I had some code that would interface to VIM but I have no idea where it is now. I think it listened for a local SMTP connection and then sent it via cc:mail. I think the idea was that you could use OUTLOOK Express to handle "mailto:" urls and then deliver them via cc:mail. I probably still have the API documents but they also still appears to be some on the IBM web site. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tomas By via > cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2020 15:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: cc:Mail > > And one more thing, > > Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between > modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. > > Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and > vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type > connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the PO > machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just acting as a > server. > > Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I did > see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have lost the > link. > > Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or > technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? > > /Tomas From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 09:18:15 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:18:15 +0100 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Tomas By via > cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2020 14:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals > > Hi again, > > Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a digital > format. > > /Tomas From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 7 09:19:43 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:19:43 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2020, at 10:14 AM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/7/2020 8:41 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to >>> be run on RSX-11M. >>> >>> RJE/HASP >>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator >> >> > > Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be > present in SimH. I think both support some level of TCP, so you might > be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along > the way. But that would indeed still leave the software question from > the original post. I would think that the simulators have very little to do here, at least on the PDP11 end. If a sync serial device is emulated as a stream of bytes, the rest is up to the software. At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC protocol handling is in software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes. Then it's a matter of finding RJ2780 software. I know it exists for RSTS, though I've never used it. (It uses the KG11 to accelerate CRC processing, I'm not sure if that's optional or required.) RJ2780 was a product family available with a number of operating systems so I'd assume RSTS isn't the only OS that had it. Finding a copy might be an interesting exercise -- that appears to be the road block Peter is talking about. paul From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 09:23:49 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:23:49 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: > Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 09:29:24 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:29:24 +0200 Subject: Mail In-Reply-To: <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87zh4y85yz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi, Yes, I did find documents on VIM, but there is also the API to the PO to consider. In the Lotus cc:Mail developer kit, do you think there is enough stuff to put together a "reverse client" -- an app that gets mail from a modern email provider using POP/IMAP/whatever it is? /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:16:52 +0200, wrote: > Thomas, > This API connection for cc:mail is Lotus VIM, vendor independent mail except > only lotus every implemented it. Somewhere I had some code that would > interface to VIM but I have no idea where it is now. > I think it listened for a local SMTP connection and then sent it via > cc:mail. I think the idea was that you could use OUTLOOK Express to handle > "mailto:" urls and then deliver them via cc:mail. > I probably still have the API documents but they also still appears to be > some on the IBM web site. > Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 09:38:30 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:38:30 +0100 Subject: Mail In-Reply-To: <87zh4y85yz.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> <87zh4y85yz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <026101d69cb7$8700e7a0$9502b6e0$@gmail.com> Tomas I think that is possible. I am sure the code I wrote, in nasty VB6 would listen for an SMTP connection and then forward it VIM and then to the internet. I will go and have a look. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Tomas By > Sent: 07 October 2020 15:29 > To: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Re: Mail > > Hi, > > Yes, I did find documents on VIM, but there is also the API to the PO to > consider. > > In the Lotus cc:Mail developer kit, do you think there is enough stuff to put > together a "reverse client" -- an app that gets mail from a modern email > provider using POP/IMAP/whatever it is? > > /Tomas > > > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:16:52 +0200, wrote: > > Thomas, > > This API connection for cc:mail is Lotus VIM, vendor independent mail > > except only lotus every implemented it. Somewhere I had some code that > > would interface to VIM but I have no idea where it is now. > > I think it listened for a local SMTP connection and then sent it via > > cc:mail. I think the idea was that you could use OUTLOOK Express to > > handle "mailto:" urls and then deliver them via cc:mail. > > I probably still have the API documents but they also still appears to > > be some on the IBM web site. > > Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 09:44:49 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 07:44:49 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 6:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. ACC (Advanced Computer Communications)? If you can find it, the PDP-11 RJE product was released to DECUS I have it on fiche, but that would be tedious to reconstruct. I don't think the comms requirements were that onerous. I thought it worked with just a DU or DV11 single-line non-DMA synchronous controller. The original RJEs couldn't run over 9600 bps. Supporting multiple synchronous channels required the fancier hardware. From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 09:45:54 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:45:54 +0200 Subject: Mail In-Reply-To: <026101d69cb7$8700e7a0$9502b6e0$@gmail.com> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> <87zh4y85yz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <026101d69cb7$8700e7a0$9502b6e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87o8le857h.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi again, I think sending out is already covered, the problematic bit is that for this to work in the modern "ecosystem", the cc:Mail PO would need to periodically (ie constantly) check for new mail from the provider, and collect it. There are probably other things I am missing also. /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:38:30 +0200, wrote: > Tomas > I think that is possible. I am sure the code I wrote, in nasty VB6 would > listen for an SMTP connection and then forward it VIM and then to the > internet. I will go and have a look. > Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:00:41 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:00:41 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:20 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > >>> be run on RSX-11M. > >>> > >>> RJE/HASP > >>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > Hercules does have 2703 emulation, and bisync emulation does seem to be > > present in SimH. I think both support some level of TCP, so you might > > be able to lash them up that way - but I would expect some hiccups along > > the way. But that would indeed still leave the software question from > > the original post. I found this looking for info on Hercules and 2703 emulation... https://hercules-390.yahoogroups.narkive.com/520q2GNv/a-hercules-rfc-about-rje > I would think that the simulators have very little to do here, at least on the PDP11 end. If a sync serial device is emulated as a stream of bytes, the rest is up to the software. Yes. The CPU simulation on the PDP-11 side has nothing special to do, but I don't see that there is device emulation for DU11 or DV11 sync serial cards, and the application code running on the PDP-11 side is going to want to see those device registers. The transport layer is immaterial, of course. > At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC protocol handling is in software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes. Yes, Bisync is just a stream of raw bytes, but ISTR the COM5025 (the common 1970s USART for this purpose) might throw in flag bytes or something minor that the application doesn't know about or see, but the other end sees in the received byte stream. It's been a few decades since I've scoped a line, and I'd have to pull our code to see what we fed to the COM5025 on the COMBOARD. > Then it's a matter of finding RJ2780 software. I know it exists for RSTS, though I've never used it. (It uses the KG11 to accelerate CRC processing, I'm not sure if that's optional or required.) RJ2780 was a product family available with a number of operating systems so I'd assume RSTS isn't the only OS that had it. Finding a copy might be an interesting exercise -- that appears to be the road block Peter is talking about. > > paul > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:06:46 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:06:46 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. > Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol > work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what > they were? Do you have a way to share photos? I'd be looking for vendor labels, EPROM labels, and especially legible chip photos of 40 or 48-pin DIP chips (one or two of which are likely to be USARTs - common ones to look for are COM5025 and Zilog Z8530) We used the COM5025 on our Unibus COMBOARDs (one model for Bisync and one for SNA, but because of memory differences between our own boards, not for protocol reasons). Our VAXBI and Qbus boards, designed after 1984, used the Z8530. We had HASP, 3780, and SNA available for the Qbus board. There are likely other chips, but those are the ones I have direct experience with (and code examples for) -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:09:52 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:09:52 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:14 AM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I remembered reading a man page for 2780/3780 emulation under UNIX back > in the day (turns out it was for AT&T PWB UNIX), and found it: > > http://quintile.net/pwb/rje_guide.pdf Manual > > Code seems to exist in > > http://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/USDL/spencer_pwb.tar.gz > > (And maybe other copies of PWB UNIX at tuhs.org) I don't have links, but I remember there being a 2780 emulation package for Ultrix-32 (VAX). I don't remember right now if it was as far back as v1.1; I could be remembering something from v.2.0, the other version we were running in the late 80s. -ethan From gavin at learn.bio Wed Oct 7 10:22:27 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:22:27 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: These may all be dead short-circuited neurons, but IIRC there was a cc:Mail Gateway or Internet Gateway special product you needed to buy that would run on a dedicated PC box (under DOS?) and would talk in turn to your cc:Mail post office server and the 'net to exchange email messages in and out. It had the semi-annoying habit of retaining plaintext copies of all incoming or outgoing messages (one or the other, I forget which). There was also some non-trivial configuration setup required on both the Gateway and cc:Mail servers to explain all this to cc:Mail. I think there was some sort of route name or gateway name specified with email addresses, possibly with a comma after the internet address, but like I said those brain cells are almost gone. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:04 AM Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > > And one more thing, > > Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between > modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. > > Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and > vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type > connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the > PO machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just > acting as a server. > > Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I > did see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have > lost the link. > > Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or > technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? > > /Tomas From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 7 10:29:07 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:29:07 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: >> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? > > > I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I > had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have > checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) > > There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not > yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were services packs for it there. FWIW, --Chuck From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 10:29:11 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:11 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture. C On 10/7/2020 10:44 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 6:46 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. > > ACC (Advanced Computer Communications)? > > If you can find it, the PDP-11 RJE product was released to DECUS > > I have it on fiche, but that would be tedious to reconstruct. > > I don't think the comms requirements were that onerous. I thought it > worked with just a DU or DV11 single-line non-DMA synchronous controller. > The original RJEs couldn't run over 9600 bps. Supporting multiple > synchronous > channels required the fancier hardware. > From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Oct 7 10:33:07 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:33:07 -0400 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: <96705582-6B6D-482B-9092-9E43CF4B3F56@verizon.net> I have PDFs of C 4.0 and C 5.0, both of which were included in a load of "Windows 1" stuff I had which included the Platform SDK manuals. If you want them, contact me off-list. Rich ?On 10/7/20, 11:29 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk" wrote: On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: >> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? > > > I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I > had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have > checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) > > There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not > yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were services packs for it there. FWIW, --Chuck From bdweb at mindspring.com Wed Oct 7 10:42:56 2020 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:42:56 -0400 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> I have a retail boxed set "Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0 Professional Edition Upgrade" (P/N 659-00145). It's stuffed with CDs, some of which I seem to remember were sent to me after I mailed in some coupons. There's not much paper documentation -- a "Microsoft Visual Studio Resource Guide", "Getting Started Setup Guide for Visual Studio 6.0", "Visual Studio Developing for Windows and the Web", and some class library posters. The documentation appears to be on a 2 CD set "MSDN Library Visual Studio 6.0" (P/N X03-73112 or possibly X03-55262). There is a card "Getting Started with Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0" which says: "The MSDN compact discs include a complete documentation set for Visual Studio and for each of the core products." --Bjoren On 10/7/2020 11:29 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: >>> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? >> >> I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I >> had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have >> checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) >> >> There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not >> yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. > I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what > amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. > That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book > looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. > > I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't > recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were > services packs for it there. > > FWIW, > --Chuck > From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Oct 7 10:45:02 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 11:45:02 -0400 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <7A99F680-ABF9-4A99-954F-0A162242C75C@verizon.net> Yes, for VS6, all of the docs were on two or three CDs that were installed separately. I think it was called the "MSDN Library". ?On 10/7/20, 11:43 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Bjoren Davis via cctalk" wrote: I have a retail boxed set "Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0 Professional Edition Upgrade" (P/N 659-00145). It's stuffed with CDs, some of which I seem to remember were sent to me after I mailed in some coupons. There's not much paper documentation -- a "Microsoft Visual Studio Resource Guide", "Getting Started Setup Guide for Visual Studio 6.0", "Visual Studio Developing for Windows and the Web", and some class library posters. The documentation appears to be on a 2 CD set "MSDN Library Visual Studio 6.0" (P/N X03-73112 or possibly X03-55262). There is a card "Getting Started with Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0" which says: "The MSDN compact discs include a complete documentation set for Visual Studio and for each of the core products." --Bjoren On 10/7/2020 11:29 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: >>> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? >> >> I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I >> had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have >> checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) >> >> There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not >> yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. > I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what > amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. > That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book > looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. > > I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't > recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were > services packs for it there. > > FWIW, > --Chuck > From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 10:52:52 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:52:52 -0400 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:29 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: > >> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? > > > > > > I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I > > had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have > > checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) > > > > There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not > > yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. > > I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what > amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. > That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book > looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. > > I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't > recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were > services packs for it there. > > FWIW, > --Chuck > Related to C in general, I have a very large collection of manuals and software for multiple styles of C and hardware. I can make these available at Kennett Classic near Philadelphia if there is sufficient interest, but I don't have time to scan all of it or break binders. In particular I have the entire boxed Microsoft suite for 6.0, it's a pretty long box of software and manuals. Probably cost a lot back then. I Bill From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 11:05:19 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:05:19 -0400 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <8055ef95-3e59-9723-dabf-2d0580d46452@alembic.crystel.com> Oh this brings back memories. Back in the 1980's I worked with Westinghouse/IRD and we used CC:Mail. When we partnered with Macro systems we tied the two together using a CC:Mail gateway package that ran over dialup modems. Moving into the 90's, the IEEE Computer Society was on CC:Mail in 1994 when I got there. We tied it to the Internet using a CC:Mail gateway on DOS *and* a CC:Mail to SMTP gateway application. Both had to be running and yes, the CC:Mail SMTP gateway had a lot of cruft pile up on it. It also locked up a LOT. In order to make the thing useful we ran it on OS/2 pre warp. That made it a lot more stable and I was able to script a process to restart the window when it crashed. Allowed me to sleep at night. But the main fail in CC:Mail was that the mail database could only be 2gb in size and it corrupted a LOT. 1995 or so we put in Lotus Notes mail and migrated the CC:Mail database to it. Infinitely more reliable, ran on OS/2 3.0 very well as a server, and as a side project I coded Notes Script into what became probably the first end user identity system on the internet (E-Accounts) which allowed us to roll out E-Aliases, member renewal by internet using our home-made credit card system, online registrations for Supercomputing/95 and the CS Digital Library in 1996 (I built that too). All because I was (a) Bored and (b) Lazy. Amazing times, but Lotus Notes was damn near indestructible. Never lost an email message. I should really write that history down sometime and somewhere. In the early 1990's IEEE lost their mind and for a few brief years (up to 2000) we at the Computer Society were free to innovate and really built some amazing things. Then the IEEE got their stuff together and smushed it.... Ah well. CZ On 10/7/2020 11:22 AM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > These may all be dead short-circuited neurons, but IIRC there was a > cc:Mail Gateway or Internet Gateway special product you needed to buy > that would run on a dedicated PC box (under DOS?) and would talk in > turn to your cc:Mail post office server and the 'net to exchange email > messages in and out. It had the semi-annoying habit of retaining > plaintext copies of all incoming or outgoing messages (one or the > other, I forget which). There was also some non-trivial configuration > setup required on both the Gateway and cc:Mail servers to explain all > this to cc:Mail. I think there was some sort of route name or gateway > name specified with email addresses, possibly with a comma after the > internet address, but like I said those brain cells are almost gone. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:04 AM Tomas By via cctalk > wrote: >> >> And one more thing, >> >> Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between >> modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. >> >> Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and >> vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type >> connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the >> PO machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just >> acting as a server. >> >> Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I >> did see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have >> lost the link. >> >> Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or >> technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? >> >> /Tomas From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 11:04:36 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:04:36 +0100 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <02f501d69cc3$8de88530$a9b98f90$@gmail.com> I think there was a gateway associated with one of the free mail severs... ... some of Lotus docs are still here ftp://ftp.www.ibm.com/software/lotus/comm/ccmail/dev_tools/ Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Gavin Scott via > cctalk > Sent: 07 October 2020 16:22 > To: Tomas By ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: cc:Mail > > These may all be dead short-circuited neurons, but IIRC there was a cc:Mail > Gateway or Internet Gateway special product you needed to buy that would > run on a dedicated PC box (under DOS?) and would talk in turn to your > cc:Mail post office server and the 'net to exchange email messages in and > out. It had the semi-annoying habit of retaining plaintext copies of all > incoming or outgoing messages (one or the other, I forget which). There was > also some non-trivial configuration setup required on both the Gateway and > cc:Mail servers to explain all this to cc:Mail. I think there was some sort of > route name or gateway name specified with email addresses, possibly with a > comma after the internet address, but like I said those brain cells are almost > gone. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:04 AM Tomas By via cctalk > wrote: > > > > And one more thing, > > > > Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between > > modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. > > > > Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and > > vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type > > connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the > > PO machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just > > acting as a server. > > > > Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I > > did see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have > > lost the link. > > > > Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or > > technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? > > > > /Tomas From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 11:05:49 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:05:49 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87d01u81ia.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi, Yes, this sounds plausible. You don't happen to remember if it was a Lotus/cc:Mail or a third party product? I managed something like this for MS mail at one point. /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 17:22:27 +0200, Gavin Scott wrote: > These may all be dead short-circuited neurons, but IIRC there was a > cc:Mail Gateway or Internet Gateway special product you needed to buy > that would run on a dedicated PC box (under DOS?) and would talk in > turn to your cc:Mail post office server and the 'net to exchange email > messages in and out. It had the semi-annoying habit of retaining > plaintext copies of all incoming or outgoing messages (one or the > other, I forget which). There was also some non-trivial configuration > setup required on both the Gateway and cc:Mail servers to explain all > this to cc:Mail. I think there was some sort of route name or gateway > name specified with email addresses, possibly with a comma after the > internet address, but like I said those brain cells are almost gone. From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 11:06:41 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:06:41 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan via cctalk > wrote: > > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > > be run on RSX-11M. > > > > RJE/HASP > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > I used to do this with specialty hardware... > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf > > ... and there were "non-intelligent" mostly-software HASP and 3780 > emulators, but I say mostly-software because you still needed a serial > interface that could do Bisync (BSC) - like the DP(V)11 or DU(V)11. > ISTR these chewed up a bunch of CPU, even on a VAX, and that's why we > had a market for a $2,500 card and $20,000 license. > > While I do have all the code (and a fair amount of the hardware) from > Software Results, writing a COMBOARD emulator would be rather complex > - the core is a 68000 (easy enough to start from) with a COM5025 or > Z8530 for a USART (probably not a ready-to-drop-in chunk of code) plus > a DMA engine to the host bus implemented in two ways (different > COMBOARD models). That last bit would require deep understanding of > the original hardware. > > There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other > vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device > name escapes me). I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not be too common if someone wanted to put together a working configuration. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 11:11:33 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:11:33 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Ok, here are pics of three of them that I dug out. Ring any bells? https://i.imgur.com/YZ4pUtY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/QcHbkjY.jpg https://i.imgur.com/i68mtFW.jpg Not as cool as the Chaosnet boards, but still interesting. Each board has a Z80A SIO, DMA, DMA,DMA, CPU,and a CTC whatever that was. Three EPROMS. One doesn't have the SIO but does have 4 PROMs and one EPROM. Man, they were odd. On 10/7/2020 11:06 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 9:46 AM Chris Zach via cctalk > wrote: >> I do have a bunch of Unibus 3270/X.25 boards from a third party vendor. >> Big big boards with a bunch of Z80's on them to do all the protocol >> work. Anyone interested in me digging them out and figuring out what >> they were? > > Do you have a way to share photos? I'd be looking for vendor labels, > EPROM labels, and especially legible chip photos of 40 or 48-pin DIP > chips (one or two of which are likely to be USARTs - common ones to > look for are COM5025 and Zilog Z8530) > > We used the COM5025 on our Unibus COMBOARDs (one model for Bisync and > one for SNA, but because of memory differences between our own boards, > not for protocol reasons). Our VAXBI and Qbus boards, designed after > 1984, used the Z8530. We had HASP, 3780, and SNA available for the > Qbus board. > > There are likely other chips, but those are the ones I have direct > experience with (and code examples for) > > -ethan > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 7 11:14:34 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:14:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > I have a retail boxed set "Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0 Professional Edition > Upgrade" (P/N 659-00145). > Visual Studio 6 is vastly different than Microsoft C v6.0. MSC is pretty much DOS only, with maybe some early windows or OS/2 stuff in it. Visual Studio 6 is 100% Windows and includes Visual Basic 6.0 and Visual C++. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 11:15:12 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:15:12 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> Message-ID: <87a6wy812n.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi, I don't think this is the same product? The one I mean is from 1990, I believe. /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 17:42:56 +0200, Bjoren Davis via cctalk wrote: > I have a retail boxed set "Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0 Professional > Edition Upgrade" (P/N 659-00145). > > It's stuffed with CDs, some of which I seem to remember were sent to > me after I mailed in some coupons. > > There's not much paper documentation -- a "Microsoft Visual Studio > Resource Guide", "Getting Started Setup Guide for Visual Studio 6.0", > "Visual Studio Developing for Windows and the Web", and some class > library posters. > > The documentation appears to be on a 2 CD set "MSDN Library Visual > Studio 6.0" (P/N X03-73112 or possibly X03-55262). > > There is a card "Getting Started with Microsoft Visual Studio 6.0" > which says: "The MSDN compact discs include a complete documentation > set for Visual Studio and for each of the core products." > > --Bjoren From cclist at sydex.com Wed Oct 7 11:31:11 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:31:11 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: Looking at my stash of 5.25" floppies, I have C 4.0, 5.0 and 6. I think the 32-bit VC++ came in with 7.0. which would account for the explosion in paper (Class libraries, etc.). 6.0 looks to be pretty straightforward and includes libraries and Workbench for OS/2 as well. Unless I've misplaced something, it looks like 7 1.2MB 5.25" floppies. --Chuck From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 11:31:56 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:31:56 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: <87362q80ar.wl-tomas@basun.net> Hi, Well, I may not need all of it. Am just looking for the basic compiler manuals, it should be three-four not too thick volumes. I have one of them in hardcopy but cannot find it. I wish you could instantly & costlessly shift your collection over to archive.org /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 17:52:52 +0200, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Related to C in general, I have a very large collection of manuals and > software for multiple styles of C and hardware. I can make these available > at Kennett Classic near Philadelphia if there is sufficient interest, but I > don't have time to scan all of it or break binders. In particular I have > the entire boxed Microsoft suite for 6.0, it's a pretty long box of > software and manuals. Probably cost a lot back then. I > > Bill From fmc at reanimators.org Wed Oct 7 11:33:50 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:33:50 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1BC7B8B1-DA33-4DC5-88BC-DEC5695FA1E3@reanimators.org> On Oct 7, 2020, at 8:29, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/7/20 7:23 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: >> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: >>> Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? >> >> >> I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I >> had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have >> checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) > > I don't know if I hung onto the MSC 6.0 manuals, but am looking at what > amounts to a sizeable portion of a bookshelf that deals with 7.0. > That's a lot of paper. Just the "Comprehensive Index and Errors" book > looks to be somewhere around 400-500 pages. > > I don't believe that MSC was part of MSDN back then. At least I don't > recall seeing it on my CD collection, although ISTR that there were > services packs for it there. My recollection is that MS Visual C 1.0 came with a big box of paper manuals. MS Visual C 1.5 was the first one where you had to take it on CD-ROM. At the time (early 1994) MSDN was a serial with approximately quarterly single CD-ROM issues whose content varied. This was all in the Time Before PDF so proprietary reading/searching software was involved. -Frank McConnell From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 11:36:03 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:36:03 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3707e62c-4089-056e-3269-25f4fc16e237@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture. > https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf from Larry Baker they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 11:37:12 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:37:12 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3707e62c-4089-056e-3269-25f4fc16e237@bitsavers.org> References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> <3707e62c-4089-056e-3269-25f4fc16e237@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5b8cda3d-c1fa-82d1-94e4-2830977d0794@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 9:36 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture. >> > > https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf > > https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf > > from Larry Baker > > > they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support > I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet https://books.google.com/books?id=UB0EAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA25 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Oct 7 11:53:06 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:53:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> <1f9e4e2f-beb5-3535-6027-011454903d70@sydex.com> <3dc9822a-10b6-221b-7301-3ce71f9d4b37@mindspring.com> Message-ID: Visual Studio is a different product than "Microsoft Optimizing C Compiler". There MIGHT have been Quick C or Visual C included with the C compiler Earlier versions were rebranded Lattice. The manuals were massive. We got a great deal ($75?? instead of several hundred$), and ordered half a dozen copies of the compiler. Eventually, the UPS driver showed up with a handtruck. The handtruck was NOT all our copies, it was ONE copy. The driver wasn't going to lift/carry more than one copy at a time, and went back and forth to his truck for a while. I gave my copies away years ago. I should check the basement and see what if anything is still around. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 11:55:40 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:55:40 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 6:56 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Hi again, > > Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a > digital format. > > /Tomas > https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/c/ From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 11:56:20 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 09:56:20 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 6:56 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Hi again, > > Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a > digital format. > > /Tomas > Looks like 6.0 ca. 1990 as their first ANSI C compiler? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 12:00:18 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:00:18 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 9:56 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 6:56 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: >> Hi again, >> >> Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a >> digital format. >> >> /Tomas >> > > Looks like 6.0 ca. 1990 as their first ANSI C compiler? Did anyone ever turn up the driver DDK for Win 3.0? From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 12:09:39 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 19:09:39 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87sgaq6jzg.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:55:40 +0200, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/c/ Thank you. /Tomas From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 12:24:21 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:24:21 -0700 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 9:56 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 6:56 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: >> Hi again, >> >> Am also looking for the manuals for Microsoft C 6.0, preferably in a >> digital format. >> >> /Tomas >> > > Looks like 6.0 ca. 1990 as their first ANSI C compiler? MSC 6.0 review https://www.drdobbs.com/windows/optimizing-with-microsoft-c-60/184408398 appears 5.1 was ANSI From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 12:32:25 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:32:25 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan wrote: > > > RJE/HASP > > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > > > I used to do this with specialty hardware... > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf > > > > There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other > > vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device > > name escapes me). > > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working > configuration. I have very dim memories of that arrangement - it was definitely ordinary that you had a dedicated I/O processor to run multiple lines. Part of the salable benefit of the COMBOARD was having an 8MHz 68000 manage the actual protocol - it moved block file data to/from the DEC host via DMA. The M68K wrapped it up as needed, handled re-transmission, etc. Using a KMC11 is similar, IIRC, certainly at the bottom levels. -ethan -ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Oct 7 12:40:48 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:40:48 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/7/2020 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 12:07 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: >> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 8:37 AM Ethan Dicks wrote: >>> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:07 AM Peter Allan wrote: >>>> RJE/HASP >>>> 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator >>> I used to do this with specialty hardware... >>> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/softwareResults/Software_Results_Comboard_Brochure_1983.pdf >>> >>> There were also intelligent sync serial engines for this from other >>> vendors, including DEC (KMC11, and probably a later one but the device >>> name escapes me). >> I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days >> ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous >> Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 >> >> Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected >> to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not >> be too common if someone wanted to put together a working >> configuration. > I have very dim memories of that arrangement - it was definitely > ordinary that you had a dedicated I/O processor to run multiple lines. > > Part of the salable benefit of the COMBOARD was having an 8MHz 68000 > manage the actual protocol - it moved block file data to/from the DEC > host via DMA. The M68K wrapped it up as needed, handled > re-transmission, etc. > > Using a KMC11 is similar, IIRC, certainly at the bottom levels. > > -ethan > > > -ethan > The protocol HASP used was unique because they had a novel BSC protocol handshake to reduce delays on the link due to handshake latency. The normal protocol had an ack requirement that involved dead time on the link till the ACK had returned.? The HASP workstation protocol sent an ack on the front end? of another record if the prior record came and streamed data with NAKs as needed stopping and causing handshake delays.? A good link was much better used than a usual BSC link. Also if you were printing an reading job submission data it got an almost full duplex use of the link speed going as the acks for prior records were prefaced on the front of the next data, rather than a standalone turn of the link just for ack. Hasp had a term for their data protocol that's not come back to me. The link between Hercules and whatever simulator's BSC would need to be able to handle that bit of trickery. Thanks Jim From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 12:42:24 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 19:42:24 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87mu0y6igv.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:55:40 +0200, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/c/ For the record, the CD is available here: https://archive.org/details/MicrosoftProgramersLibraryV1.3 In case you don't trust web sites to still be there after you look away for a second. /Tomas From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 12:49:54 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 10:49:54 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/7/20 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Using a KMC11 is similar Other than the KMC being a Unibus bandwidth hog. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Wed Oct 7 12:52:24 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:52:24 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <595660443.17186.1602093144101@email.ionos.com> On 10/07/2020 11:11 AM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: has a Z80A SIO, DMA, DMA,DMA, CPU,and a CTC whatever that was. Three CTC is a Counter Timer Circuit -- Two(?) sixteen bit timers with various modes and input/output options. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 12:55:23 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:55:23 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For those that might want to look at the roots, there are a few references at the bottom of this page to IBM Bisync docs. http://www.3780-emulation.com/3780-emulation-bisync-protocol.htm The other publication which really contains the meat of Bisync is the manual for the Data 100 2780/3780 workstation I thought I ran across a PDF of the manual one time, but couldn't find it looking just now. Here's what I could fine on Data 100. http://www.cbi.umn.edu/resources/mncomphist-d.html If we can scare up the docs, they go into adequate detail to make (or debug) an RJE workstation -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 12:57:12 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:57:12 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 1:50 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 10:32 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > Using a KMC11 is similar > > Other than the KMC being a Unibus bandwidth hog. Similar in principle, not in implementation. COMBOARDs were quite well behaved. The DMA engine was PIO on the M68K side so max bandwidth, even from a tight Bcc loop, was ~200KB/sec -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 13:00:43 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:00:43 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3707e62c-4089-056e-3269-25f4fc16e237@bitsavers.org> References: <0926e0a7-c3e1-e323-cd11-2d0bb4f8ef3c@alembic.crystel.com> <6df87bae-b6b2-8ff0-f376-3df684e35cae@bitsavers.org> <3707e62c-4089-056e-3269-25f4fc16e237@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0ba55321-0afd-2382-ac01-03a4a193278c@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting. I think these came from that E-COM US Postal Service thing in the late 1980's where the USPS built a pilot system to allow you to go into a post office, give them a letter, then they would scan the letter, route it through a network of pdp11's to the destination PO where it was then printed out and delivered. Yes, I think this was when a Fax machine was a very very big thing. Interesting part is they used these boards for interconnections. The actual node was a pdp11/23 CPU with 256kb of memory, one or more of these things (which if I recall could handle 8 serial lines each), a multifunction board with clock, parallel interface (for printer), serial ports, and of course a pair of RM02 disk drives. Before you consider that to be an impossible system, each system had a special Plessy bus in a BA11 type chassis that had a voltage regulator to make the +12, a Q bus/Unibus backplane that had a Plessy Quineverter to talk to the Unibus stuff. Even the RM02 so the Quniverter did have DMA capability but I don't recall if it has a unibus map (I have one or two of those here somewhere as well. I have a lot of stuff) This is how Doug and I met at Alan Frisbee's place in Greenbelt to split a horde of RM02 disk drives and other stuff. Man this is going back years, but I think I still have a lot of the documentation for this project somewhere in the paper piles, it was a weird concept. On 10/7/2020 12:36 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 8:29 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> That sounds like it, and I might have been the one to upload the >> drivers. Let me find one in the shed and take a picture. >> > > https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1988/0185/report.pdf > > https://pubs.usgs.gov/of/1991/0262/report.pdf > > from Larry Baker > > > they were popular X.25 cards that had BSD support > I think that's what we used at Apple to get on NSFnet From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 7 13:03:36 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:03:36 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working > configuration. That model number isn't familiar. A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host. The idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed. That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything on its own". The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus CSRs. If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that doesn't rely on a KMC-11. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 7 13:08:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:08:59 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2020, at 11:00 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > ... > >> At least in the 2780 emulation case, where BISYNC protocol handling is in software and the serial ports just are raw byte pipes. > > Yes, Bisync is just a stream of raw bytes, but ISTR the COM5025 (the > common 1970s USART for this purpose) might throw in flag bytes or > something minor that the application doesn't know about or see, but > the other end sees in the received byte stream. Not flags, that's an HDLC concept. Bisync uses sync characters (as DDCMP does) but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by a frame terminator, and for transparency if that occurs inside the data it has to be escaped. Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but it's occasionally found elsewhere. One of my nightmare memories is debugging the communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11 (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 display advertising graphics editing workstation. That runs Bisync, half duplex, multipoint, with modem control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices at the PDP-11 end. Yikes. At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to 8 am. I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond what I just mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to do with IBM products. paul From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 13:14:09 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:14:09 -0500 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland Message-ID: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) https://imgur.com/gallery/7TKl5YH -- Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 direct From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 13:20:20 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 20:20:20 +0200 Subject: Microsoft C 6.0 manuals In-Reply-To: <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <87a6wy9m2m.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023f01d69cb4$b2b98f80$182cae80$@gmail.com> <87362q9ksq.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87lfghzymz.wl-tomas@basun.net> So I was thinking of the Handheld systems stuff here. /Tomas On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:23:49 +0200, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 16:18:15 +0200, wrote: > > Would then not be on MSDN cds from around that time? > > > I don't think so. I did spend some effort to locate on of those that I > had some reference to, but it turned out to be nothing. (And I have > checked at least ten MSDN CDs for this material.) > > There are paper copies in some west coast US libraries, but I have not > yet gotten desperate enough to try that route. > > /Tomas > From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Oct 7 13:27:26 2020 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 20:27:26 +0200 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <8e3db651-fbb0-a4bf-8bf2-f19939e7a343@greenmail.ch> On 07.10.20 20:14, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) That is Johannes Thelens' collection, located not all that far fom Helsinki. Johannes has very kindly showed me around his collection, and he sure has some nice stuff around ! Jos From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Oct 7 13:27:02 2020 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 20:27:02 +0200 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <2b6cf7c9-9057-e491-e0d9-a73b0952f7bf@greenmail.ch> On 07.10.20 20:14, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) That is Johannes Thelens' collection, located not all that far fom Helsinki. Johannes has very kindly showed me around his collection, and he sure has some nice stuff around ! Jos From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 13:29:43 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:43 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > > ... > > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days > > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous > > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 > > > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected > > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not > > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working > > configuration. > > That model number isn't familiar. > > A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host. The idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed. > > That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything on its own". The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus CSRs. If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that doesn't rely on a KMC-11. > > paul Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own" directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the 40-pin Berg connector would be needed. From turing at shaw.ca Wed Oct 7 13:49:43 2020 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:49:43 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <2b6cf7c9-9057-e491-e0d9-a73b0952f7bf@greenmail.ch> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <2b6cf7c9-9057-e491-e0d9-a73b0952f7bf@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <478498745.472503676.1602096583198.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> What a lovely collection of IBM 1800 systems! From: "cctalk" To: "cctalk" Sent: Wednesday, October 7, 2020 11:27:02 AM Subject: Re: Old mainframes in Finland On 07.10.20 20:14, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) That is Johannes Thelens' collection, located not all that far fom Helsinki. Johannes has very kindly showed me around his collection, and he sure has some nice stuff around ! Jos From sales at elecplus.com Wed Oct 7 13:51:47 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:51:47 -0500 Subject: Finnish museum needs financial help Message-ID: <597bb4ac-739f-b3c9-6b11-b0d1a3c5f583@elecplus.com> https://pt.gofundme.com/f/exhibition-of-agora-computing They really need donations so they can get going again. Can anyone help? -- Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 direct From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 13:55:23 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:55:23 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 8:03 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > Am wondering about the possibility of setting up an interface between > modern Unix email and the embedded client for cc:Mail on the HP 200LX. Translation / regurgitation: You're wondering about the possibility of connecting a cc:Mail Post Office to the Internet email (SMTP/POP3/IMAP) ecosystem somehow. Is that correct? > Various versions of cc:Mail are available from archive.org and > vetusware.com, but the missing link seems to be the "client" type > connection from the cc:Mail post office to the internet, i.e. for the > PO machine to connect periodically and collect mail, rather than just > acting as a server. I don't know that I've ever seen, or realized, that there was a utility that would retrieve email from a provider via POP3 / IMAP and inject it into cc:Mail. But my ignorance thereof does not preclude it's existence. I have seen such utilities that re-inject email into a local SMTP based solution. "fetchmail" is one such example. I also believe that some versions of Microsoft Exchange have this capability built in. > Have not been able to find much technical information about cc:Mail. I > did see a Lotus development kit for sale somwhere but seems to have > lost the link. > > Does anybody here know anything about this? Are there any books or > technical documents on cc:Mail available anywhere? I'll take a look in my pile of Lotus disks. (I have an unhealthy interest in old networking / email / collaboration technologies.) I think that I have a few different /Lotus/ things that interface with cc:Mail. I also think that I have some non-Lotus things that will also interface with cc:Mail; e.g. Microsoft Exchange and / or Novell GroupWise. I expect that amongst the various plastic coasters that I have, possibly combined with other utilities, there is a way to get Internet email into and out of your Unix cc:Mail client. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Oct 7 13:41:06 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 19:41:06 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87d01u81ia.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <01RQJF1C5J968ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Back in the 1990s, a company I used to work for offered email services to people running cc:Mail, Lotus Notes, MSMAIL, Pegasus Mail and various other oddball mail servers (X.400 even) using PMDF on VMS. PMDF is still a commercial product but a hobbyist license is available. PMDF is also available to run on UNIX (and Windows) but I don't know whether the same gateways to esoteric systems and hobbyist license are available on those platforms. I recall one of the problems with cc:Mail (and Lotus Notes) was that it did not not have any concept of "envelope addresses". This meant that it was nearly impossible to avoid message loops in the case of undeliverable messages, especially when mailing lists were involved. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Hi, > > Yes, this sounds plausible. You don't happen to remember if it was > a Lotus/cc:Mail or a third party product? > > I managed something like this for MS mail at one point. > > /Tomas > > > > On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 17:22:27 +0200, Gavin Scott wrote: > > These may all be dead short-circuited neurons, but IIRC there was a > > cc:Mail Gateway or Internet Gateway special product you needed to buy > > that would run on a dedicated PC box (under DOS?) and would talk in > > turn to your cc:Mail post office server and the 'net to exchange email > > messages in and out. It had the semi-annoying habit of retaining > > plaintext copies of all incoming or outgoing messages (one or the > > other, I forget which). There was also some non-trivial configuration > > setup required on both the Gateway and cc:Mail servers to explain all > > this to cc:Mail. I think there was some sort of route name or gateway > > name specified with email addresses, possibly with a comma after the > > internet address, but like I said those brain cells are almost gone. > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 13:58:32 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 12:58:32 -0600 Subject: Mail In-Reply-To: <87o8le857h.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <023e01d69cb4$8135c780$83a15680$@gmail.com> <87zh4y85yz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <026101d69cb7$8700e7a0$9502b6e0$@gmail.com> <87o8le857h.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <7c34b8d3-5658-4def-d710-b2eb527ea367@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 8:45 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > the cc:Mail PO would need to periodically (ie constantly) check for > new mail from the provider, and collect it. /Something/ needs to periodically check for new mail from the provider. I don't think that it needs to necessarily be the cc:Mail PO. Something like fetchmail can periodically poll and collect email. You can probably also configure an SMTP gateway and use regular mail routing (possibly via forwarding) to push email into the system. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 14:17:31 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 21:17:31 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 20:55:23 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Translation / regurgitation: You're wondering about the possibility > of connecting a cc:Mail Post Office to the Internet email > (SMTP/POP3/IMAP) ecosystem somehow. Is that correct? Well, in theory it could possibly be directly between 200LX and Internet, without any PO, but realistically: yes. It's been a while now, but one cc:Mail PO version I tried had an SMTP add-on for sending mail, and also, I believe, POP/IMAP for dial-up, i.e. acting as a server using those protocols. What I believe I am looking for is a POP/IMAP client side, to run on/with the cc:Mail PO, getting mails from Internet to cc:Mail. > I don't know that I've ever seen, or realized, that there was a > utility that would retrieve email from a provider via POP3 / IMAP and > inject it into cc:Mail. But my ignorance thereof does not preclude > it's existence. Right. But there were bridges, apparently, so they must have done it? > I'll take a look in my pile of Lotus disks. (I have an unhealthy > interest in old networking / email / collaboration technologies.) > > I think that I have a few different /Lotus/ things that interface with > cc:Mail. I also think that I have some non-Lotus things that will > also interface with cc:Mail; e.g. Microsoft Exchange and / or Novell > GroupWise. I expect that amongst the various plastic coasters that I > have, possibly combined with other utilities, there is a way to get > Internet email into and out of your Unix cc:Mail client. Sounds good. On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 20:58:32 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 8:45 AM, Tomas By via cctalk wrote: > > the cc:Mail PO would need to periodically (ie constantly) check for > > new mail from the provider, and collect it. > > /Something/ needs to periodically check for new mail from the > provider. I don't think that it needs to necessarily be the cc:Mail > PO. No, it can be separate. > Something like fetchmail can periodically poll and collect email. So getting the mail from fetchmail into cc:Mail should be possible with the Lotus dev stuff? > You can probably also configure an SMTP gateway and use regular mail > routing (possibly via forwarding) to push email into the system. If by system you mean cc:Mail then I do not really see how this works. /Tomas From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 14:22:13 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:22:13 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 12:55 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'll take a look in my pile of Lotus disks. Much of what I have is more Notes / Domino specific. But I do have a cc:Mail documentation CD-ROM that's from '95. Email me directly if you want to know more details about what's on it or to discuss how to get a copy to you. > I also think that I have some non-Lotus things that will also interface > with cc:Mail; e.g. Microsoft Exchange and / or Novell GroupWise. Let me know if you are interested in any of these options. I also wonder if you could abuse something that a client did years ago. Microsoft Outlook configured with SMTP / POP3 accounts to periodically retrieve email and then rely on client side rules to file messages in their MS-Mail P.O. I don't know if the same would work with a cc:Mail connector like was done with the MS-Mail connector. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 14:35:13 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:35:13 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: On 10/7/20 1:17 PM, Tomas By wrote: > Well, in theory it could possibly be directly between 200LX and > Internet, without any PO, but realistically: yes. I don't see how that would work. If all the client knows how to do is talk to a cc:Mail Post Office, then I think the Post Office is going to be /required/. Now, if the client knows how to talk to something other than the P.O. ... sure. > It's been a while now, but one cc:Mail PO version I tried had an SMTP > add-on for sending mail, and also, I believe, POP/IMAP for dial-up, > i.e. acting as a server using those protocols. I'm not surprised that such a gateway existed. > What I believe I am looking for is a POP/IMAP client side, to run > on/with the cc:Mail PO, getting mails from Internet to cc:Mail. Agreed. Or something to perform that function, even if it's not the original solution from Lotus (or whomever owned cc:Mail before Lotus acquired them). > Right. > > But there were bridges, apparently, so they must have done it? Ya. I think gateways were the quintessential solution to connect P.O.s to the Internet or other email systems in the '80s & '90s. > Sounds good. See my other reply from a few minutes ago. > No, it can be separate. ;-) > So getting the mail from fetchmail into cc:Mail should be possible > with the Lotus dev stuff? I don't know about the dev stuff. I was thinking about an SMTP gateway in-to / out-of a cc:Mail P.O. Then have fetchmail (et al.) pull email from wherever and feed it into the SMTP gateway. > If by system you mean cc:Mail then I do not really see how this works. No. I mean configure a new (sub)domain with it's own MX record that point to the SMTP gateway (probably via intermediate SMTP server) so that email naturally flows into it. You can't (practically) have @domain-one.example email go into two separate SMTP servers. So one trick is to feed it into one and have it selectively forwad specific addresses to @ccmail-domain.example. Aside: There are ways to do this, but they are complex and most people don't want to go there. E.g. Sendmail's LDAP routing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 7 14:37:53 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 12:37:53 -0700 Subject: Books I no longer need In-Reply-To: <038d2a36-4f95-e40c-840e-7546777f26a8@ekoan.com> References: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> <038d2a36-4f95-e40c-840e-7546777f26a8@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <17d24be0bdb07f4e83afed917c5c5c171735733f.camel@sbcglobal.net> So far, two people have asked for "Programming HP 21MX Computers." So that I don't have to decide who gets it, I've put it on EBay for a 7-day auction with a starting bid of $0.99. https://www.ebay.com/itm/224184669206 It has a cheap "perfect" binding, and it's 3-hold punched, so it could be disassembled and scanned, but I don't want to be the one who does this. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 14:46:44 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 21:46:44 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 21:35:13 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I don't see how that would work. If all the client knows how to do is > talk to a cc:Mail Post Office, then I think the Post Office is going > to be /required/. Well, theoretically, you could have another program that emulates the PO server side. It does not need to anything other than get the mails and talk to the client (over PC serial port). > I was thinking about an SMTP gateway in-to / out-of a cc:Mail P.O. > Then have fetchmail (et al.) pull email from wherever and feed it into > the SMTP gateway. My understanding is that the SMTP gateway is out from PO only. /Tomas From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 14:57:28 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:57:28 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 1:46 PM, Tomas By wrote: > Well, theoretically, you could have another program that emulates > the PO server side. I think that we have different understandings of what the Post Office is in older email systems. To me, the Post Office, is a collection of files that live in a directory structure. Said file / directory structure is then directly accessed by the email client. As in the email client reads from and writes to files, meaning that it does not talk to a program / daemon / service across the network. It's just that this collection of files & directories lived on a common network drive. > It does not need to anything other than get the mails and talk to > the client But, based on my understanding, the cc:Mail client doesn't talk to a server. It reads / writes files directly. Hence the need to have something else, e.g. the gateway, communicate between the P.O. and the rest of the world. I don't see how you can avoid the P.O.'s file / directory structure. Maybe I'm wrong. > (over PC serial port). Hum. That make make things more entertaining. Is the serial port for communications between the cc:Mail client and the cc:Mail P.O.? Or is the serial port how you will need to interface with the rest of the world? > My understanding is that the SMTP gateway is out from PO only. I don't know. The MS-Mail SMTP gateway that I messed with was both inbound from the world and outbound to the world. But the cc:Mail gateway could easily have been different. Of course, SMTP is not the same thing as pulling from POP3 or IMAP. But, fortunately fetchmail (et al.) can act as the gateway between POP3/IMAP and SMTP to talk to another gateway between SMTP and cc:Mail P.O. Moving parts (read: things that can go wrong), there are a lot of them. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cube1 at charter.net Wed Oct 7 08:41:36 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 08:41:36 -0500 Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "However, once it reaches the Timing Error Skip Instruction and Logic Test, it fails with the following: > TIMING ERROR SKIP INSTRUCTION AND LOGIC > TIMING ERROR STATUS BIT NOT SET IN COMMAND REGISTER > > TIMING ERROR DOES NOT CLEAR WRITE FLIP/FLOP " If at this point it is doing a wrap-around test without drive activity, then that sounds like a problem on the TD8E, rather than the drive. JRJ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 15:00:26 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:00:26 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5ca6bfbe-9900-255d-3dd7-9219e5afb76e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 1:57 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I don't see how you can avoid the P.O.'s file / directory structure. This isn't the whole truth and nothing but the truth. I can see a hypothetical case where a program could leverage something like a Filesystem in User SpacE (a.k.a. FUSE) to emulate the P.O. directory structure on one side and then speak the relevant Internet standard protocols on the other side. But, is that /really/ avoiding the P.O.'s file and directory structure? ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 15:10:26 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 22:10:26 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 21:57:28 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I think that we have different understandings of what the Post Office > is in older email systems. [...] Well, we are talking past each other. When I say client/server I mean the connection over serial port/modem between the mobile client, not on the same LAN as the PO, and the PO. > Maybe I'm wrong. [...] > Is the serial port for communications between the cc:Mail client and > the cc:Mail P.O.? Yes. > I don't know. The MS-Mail SMTP gateway that I messed with was both > inbound from the world and outbound to the world. But the cc:Mail > gateway could easily have been different. Well, I am not sure either. I need to have another look at that SMTP gateway, I guess. But if it is like you say they would not have needed a separate Internet bridge? They could just have used the SMTP gateway? /Tomas From gavin at learn.bio Wed Oct 7 15:13:59 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:13:59 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: My recollection of the cc:Mail SMTP Gateway (that now sounds like the right name to me) was that it was definitely bidirectional with respect to SMTP/internet traffic. There were differences in that inbound and outbound processing were rather different internally IIRC, but that was pretty much transparent to the user. My recollection of cc:Mail itself was that it was indeed a full server that clients interacted with over a network connection. I *think* we ran it on Netware with IPX/SPX as the client network transport in those days (but again my memory could be faulty), and eventually got the SMTP Gateway to get internet gateway connectivity and it ran on a minimal PC system as a dedicated server. I seem to recall waiting a year or more for the SMTP Gateway to finally become available. It seemed like a rather half-assed solution compared to the Lotus Notes gateway etc. which I think may have run as native Netware NLMs rather than needing the kludgy PC gateway. This would all have been in like 1990-95-ish give-or-take I think. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:57 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/7/20 1:46 PM, Tomas By wrote: > > Well, theoretically, you could have another program that emulates > > the PO server side. > > I think that we have different understandings of what the Post Office is > in older email systems. > > To me, the Post Office, is a collection of files that live in a > directory structure. Said file / directory structure is then directly > accessed by the email client. As in the email client reads from and > writes to files, meaning that it does not talk to a program / daemon / > service across the network. It's just that this collection of files & > directories lived on a common network drive. > > > It does not need to anything other than get the mails and talk to > > the client > > But, based on my understanding, the cc:Mail client doesn't talk to a > server. It reads / writes files directly. Hence the need to have > something else, e.g. the gateway, communicate between the P.O. and the > rest of the world. > > I don't see how you can avoid the P.O.'s file / directory structure. > > Maybe I'm wrong. > > > (over PC serial port). > > Hum. That make make things more entertaining. > > Is the serial port for communications between the cc:Mail client and the > cc:Mail P.O.? Or is the serial port how you will need to > interface with the rest of the world? > > > My understanding is that the SMTP gateway is out from PO only. > > I don't know. The MS-Mail SMTP gateway that I messed with was both > inbound from the world and outbound to the world. But the cc:Mail > gateway could easily have been different. Of course, SMTP is not the > same thing as pulling from POP3 or IMAP. But, fortunately fetchmail (et > al.) can act as the gateway between POP3/IMAP and SMTP to talk to > another gateway between SMTP and cc:Mail P.O. > > Moving parts (read: things that can go wrong), there are a lot of them. ;-) > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Oct 7 14:23:18 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 20:23:18 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> > Hi folks, > > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > be run on RSX-11M. > > RJE/HASP > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh > to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem the > obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. > I suspect the products you mention above are designed to interface to a real synchronous serial line? In my experience with Hercules, simulating a generalised synchronous serial line effectively in software is pretty fraught. I don't know if simh attempts to do this or if it allows the simulated system access to real synchronous serial hardware in the host system. If the latter, this doesn't get you any closer to a connection to Hercules because Hercules does not have code to drive a real synchronous serial line. However, I know of at least two projects which implement bisync line to TCP/IP gateways to interface to IBM terminals using additional hardware. Perhaps it might be possible to adapt one or both to do RJE? Here is one of them: http://www.9track.net/hercules/dlsw/ I can't quite put a hand on a url for the other one right now but the author posts here regularly so hopefully he will chime in. Or, it might be possible to use an intermediate gateway such as a MicroVAX with a synchronous serial interface. The protocol used for 2703 over TCP/IP emulation in Hercules is not really up to doing much more than trivial RJE transfers. It can't really manage NJE either. (NJE is mostly just RJE with another layer added on.) Back in the 1980s, a requirement arose to be able to transport NJE across the internet for the BITNET network. A protocol was devised to enable this to be done effectively: http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/netinfo/CREN/brfc0002.text I have implemented this protocol in Hercules here: https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/ Unfortunately, this protocol is specific to NJE, it does not work for RJE. In order to get RJE in and out of Hercules with any degree of reliability and efficiency, it would be necessary to come up with an equally suitable protocol or tweak the NJE protocol appropriately. If you can come up with a way of getting NJE over TCP/IP out of your simulated PDP-11 on simh, you can trivially connect that to my code in Hercules in order to end up with NJE connections to either VM/370 RSCS or MVS (both with suitable tweaks). Not so useful if what you really want is RJE though. Regards, Peter Coghlan. > Cheers > > Peter Allan From gavin at learn.bio Wed Oct 7 15:28:19 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 15:28:19 -0500 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: P.S. As far as I can recall I never connected my 200LX up to our cc:Mail even though I carried a 95/100/200 around with me pretty much all the time in those days. On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 3:13 PM Gavin Scott wrote: > > My recollection of the cc:Mail SMTP Gateway (that now sounds like the > right name to me) was that it was definitely bidirectional with > respect to SMTP/internet traffic. There were differences in that > inbound and outbound processing were rather different internally IIRC, > but that was pretty much transparent to the user. My recollection of > cc:Mail itself was that it was indeed a full server that clients > interacted with over a network connection. I *think* we ran it on > Netware with IPX/SPX as the client network transport in those days > (but again my memory could be faulty), and eventually got the SMTP > Gateway to get internet gateway connectivity and it ran on a minimal > PC system as a dedicated server. I seem to recall waiting a year or > more for the SMTP Gateway to finally become available. It seemed like > a rather half-assed solution compared to the Lotus Notes gateway etc. > which I think may have run as native Netware NLMs rather than needing > the kludgy PC gateway. This would all have been in like 1990-95-ish > give-or-take I think. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:57 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 10/7/20 1:46 PM, Tomas By wrote: > > > Well, theoretically, you could have another program that emulates > > > the PO server side. > > > > I think that we have different understandings of what the Post Office is > > in older email systems. > > > > To me, the Post Office, is a collection of files that live in a > > directory structure. Said file / directory structure is then directly > > accessed by the email client. As in the email client reads from and > > writes to files, meaning that it does not talk to a program / daemon / > > service across the network. It's just that this collection of files & > > directories lived on a common network drive. > > > > > It does not need to anything other than get the mails and talk to > > > the client > > > > But, based on my understanding, the cc:Mail client doesn't talk to a > > server. It reads / writes files directly. Hence the need to have > > something else, e.g. the gateway, communicate between the P.O. and the > > rest of the world. > > > > I don't see how you can avoid the P.O.'s file / directory structure. > > > > Maybe I'm wrong. > > > > > (over PC serial port). > > > > Hum. That make make things more entertaining. > > > > Is the serial port for communications between the cc:Mail client and the > > cc:Mail P.O.? Or is the serial port how you will need to > > interface with the rest of the world? > > > > > My understanding is that the SMTP gateway is out from PO only. > > > > I don't know. The MS-Mail SMTP gateway that I messed with was both > > inbound from the world and outbound to the world. But the cc:Mail > > gateway could easily have been different. Of course, SMTP is not the > > same thing as pulling from POP3 or IMAP. But, fortunately fetchmail (et > > al.) can act as the gateway between POP3/IMAP and SMTP to talk to > > another gateway between SMTP and cc:Mail P.O. > > > > Moving parts (read: things that can go wrong), there are a lot of them. ;-) > > > > > > > > -- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 15:39:53 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 16:39:53 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:19 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > > be run on RSX-11M. > > > > RJE/HASP > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > > > My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on simh > > to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. > > I suspect the products you mention above are designed to interface to a > real synchronous serial line? Yes. The actual hardware was anything from a dumb PIO serial card where the host CPU does all the protocol, to expensive, intelligent serial cards that run an entire protocol engine and just push input and output files across the hardware bus. > In my experience with Hercules, simulating > a generalised synchronous serial line effectively in software is pretty > fraught. I don't know if simh attempts to do this or if it allows the > simulated system access to real synchronous serial hardware in the host > system. Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but probably not anything more recent. What simh does for async muxes like the DZ11 is to open up TCP sockets, one per serial line, then you connect to those for interactive sessions and such. There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh. That would have to be written in any case. The DU11 and DUV11 are very simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART. It would not be a huge undertaking to write up a module to emulate one and attach it to the virtual bus and have it also just open up a TCP socket. One could use 'netcat' or something similar to open up and talk to both the PDP-11 socket and the Hercules socket to make the connection. > The protocol used for 2703 over TCP/IP emulation in Hercules is not really > up to doing much more than trivial RJE transfers. It can't really manage > NJE either. (NJE is mostly just RJE with another layer added on.) When I did this sort of thing in the 80s and 90s, we didn't have NJE - we supported RJE over 3780 and HASP (same hardware, different protocol engine loads). I remember having to have a list of what the RJE commands were over each type of console (in particular, I remember there was IBM and CDC commands that differed). I also remember using a bit of JCL to tell the remote (IBM) end where to pipe the files and where to send the results (line printer, disk file on our end, etc) > Back in the 1980s, a requirement arose to be able to transport NJE across > the internet for the BITNET network. A protocol was devised to enable this > to be done effectively: > > http://www.nic.funet.fi/pub/netinfo/CREN/brfc0002.text I have heard of this, but I was never on BITNET back in the day. > I have implemented this protocol in Hercules here: > > https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/ > > Unfortunately, this protocol is specific to NJE, it does not work for RJE. Ah well. I _think_ the way forward is to choose a 2780/3780 package for the PDP-11, then write a sync serial device handler for a compatible type of board, and let TCP connect the dots, so to speak. If the goal is to run from a real PDP-11, that's an entirely different matter and would probably require finding a way to add a USART to modern hardware to pick up the bytes from the real PDP-11. This bridge device would then make a network connection to Hercules to complete the circuit. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 15:48:55 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:48:55 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, > especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but > probably not anything more recent. > you could get PCI V.35 cards https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 probably for SNA From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 7 15:52:53 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 13:52:53 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <38c2d726-061b-f5b1-e710-363168ddedd8@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 1:48 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > >> Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of >> machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, >> especially laptops.? I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but >> probably not anything more recent. >> > > you could get PCI V.35 cards > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 > > probably for SNA > > http://barrcentral.com/manuals/SYNC%20MAX%20PCI%20Adapter%20Manual%20Rev2.pdf From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 15:56:21 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 14:56:21 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <0584508a-2044-0b56-766f-fba7436af186@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 2:10 PM, Tomas By wrote: > Well, we are talking past each other. That's entirely possible. That's why I elaborated on what I meant, explicitly to give you an opportunity to confirm or refute. > When I say client/server I mean the connection over serial port/modem > between the mobile client, not on the same LAN as the PO, and the PO. Oh. What I know as the remote client support. I know even less about that. But, yes, that could probably be a daemon of sorts without an actual P.O. > Yes. > > Well, I am not sure either. I need to have another look at that SMTP > gateway, I guess. :-) > But if it is like you say they would not have needed a separate > Internet bridge? They could just have used the SMTP gateway? It might have been a different limitation from the time, imposed by the configuration in play. I see a lot of documentation talking about doing SMTP between a PC running DOS or NT (the two platforms that the MS-Mail SMTP Gateway ran on) and a Unix (typically Solaris) box that would gateway between SMTP and UUCP. I think the P.O. usually lived on one system which a lot of people accessed. Then the SMTP gateway lived on another system, where it would gateway between the P.O. on one side ans SMTP on another side. Given the purported instability of the various gateways, I think there was a fair bit of advantage in having it on it's own system so that it could be rebooted without impacting anything else. The same would not be true if the gateway was run on the file server holding the P.O. There's also using the SMTP gateway between multiple P.O.s, each on different departmental file servers, and the Internet. All speculation about something I was not part of and have only read things about. -- Save for the fact that I did get MS-Mail to SMTP Gateway working in a lab within the last couple of years. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 16:03:34 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:03:34 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of > > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, > > especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but > > probably not anything more recent. > > you could get PCI V.35 cards > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 I was not aware of this unit. Thanks for the pointer. > probably for SNA Looks like it has a variety of targets. That Zilog 16C32 is a real kitchen-sink serial chip, way more complicated than the Z8530. It is definitely way more advanced than the stuff I was working with from the mid-70s and early-80s. Overkill for this task, but definitely capable, depending on what the PCI end looks like. The serial chip is fine. It will do whatever. -ethan From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 16:19:31 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 23:19:31 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <87h7r5ybrw.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Wed, 07 Oct 2020 22:28:19 +0200, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > P.S. As far as I can recall I never connected my 200LX up to our > cc:Mail even though I carried a 95/100/200 around with me pretty much > all the time in those days. I never had a cc:Mail account, but I used the 200LX client for Internet email, using a file-level conversion tool, sometime in the mid-late 1990s. It was not really convenient, as the modem was bigger than the Palmtop, and then all the cables. /Tomas From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 16:56:17 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 17:56:17 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Sig 2652 is an alternative to the 5025. 5025 is based on the DP11 MSI design by Frank Zereski at dec, the 26t2 is based on my design for the DMC/KMC line units that could run DDCM{< BiSync-ADDCP-BDLC On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:04 PM Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > > > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of > > > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, > > > especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but > > > probably not anything more recent. > > > > you could get PCI V.35 cards > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 > > I was not aware of this unit. Thanks for the pointer. > > > probably for SNA > > Looks like it has a variety of targets. That Zilog 16C32 is a real > kitchen-sink serial chip, way more complicated than the Z8530. > > It is definitely way more advanced than the stuff I was working with > from the mid-70s and early-80s. > > Overkill for this task, but definitely capable, depending on what the > PCI end looks like. The serial chip is fine. It will do whatever. > > -ethan From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 7 16:59:30 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 14:59:30 -0700 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> Message-ID: <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2020-10-07 at 13:14 -0500, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal > collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) > https://imgur.com/gallery/7TKl5YH I visited Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung (House of the History of IBM Data Processing) in Sindelfingen twice before the collection was moved across the Autobahn to the IBM Technology Center in Boeblingen. https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOlJ8ZB6COe4u6alT5Hah9mTph8QqaFxP37naSOsjAeW9IJvcf8kJxypT7XPYWCkw?key=UEpwNV93bE4zcEdPSzJVb1dJUmpjelAweVNYMFRn https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPN1bSdVWEVA5aykENlOEWm4aG290s9-BU-NFUz702oAei0qme7Owkntg-VN6P9lQ?key=d2NDSTFQNVJSbHpPQ0ZzWFN3Ny13OHBjby1pZlVR Several of the computers at Sindelfingen were in working order, in particular a 403, 650, 1401 and 360/25. The 650 belonged to a museum in Vienna. I think it was sent back. I hope it survived the journey in working order. Their keypunches worked. I punched a few one-card 1401 programs to clear up some confusion/imprecision in the manuals to correct/confirm the SimH 1401 simulator. I visited John Zabolitsky's collection at Neubiberg, a southeastern suburb of Munich: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPGeVphL95gtsGIO96iU4APdtSRnHhcm1y4-YaPspa6_jDuAZw6cfD3FR3OFr8czw?key=MjJZNUVjMWtLRkVKbmF2TnFDa3ZneDM0WWFqZ0hB They sell time on their VAX. I think some of the other machines work, too, but the VAX was the only one running when I visited. From drb at msu.edu Wed Oct 7 17:26:07 2020 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 18:26:07 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 07 Oct 2020 09:41:48 -0400.) References: Message-ID: <20201007222617.42F7B2AAA96@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated emulation. I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine at least. http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html De From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 7 17:33:00 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:33:00 -0700 Subject: IBM 1130 simulator In-Reply-To: <850059b075084d6345c488e36ad9ae0a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <6243fb4782dc0543e272d4b982cfa21563cc415b.camel@sbcglobal.net> <850059b075084d6345c488e36ad9ae0a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <77ff5641c01b6fc89dc137c4a6873f00f333c8f9.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2020-10-07 at 15:39 +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Van said > > In about 1974, for my senior undergraduate project, I wrote > > microcodeto convince a Varian V70 that it was actually an IBM 1130. > > Being substantially more modern hardware, it was much faster than > > areal 1130. > > If anybody wants microcode and flow diagrams, and listings for the > > I/Osimulation (which ran in 620/f mode), I'm happy to send them. > > Van Snydervan.snyder at sbcglobal.net > > It sounds interesting, if somewhat esoteric. Why not put it on > Github?There it can be preserved (we hope), searched, perused, and by > the curious, downloaded :) > Steve I've never had any success with github, probably for lack of not really needing it. I've put my V70 materials, including 1130 emulator, on http://vandyke.mynetgear.com/1401/V70 The next level up, http://vandyke.mynetgear.com/1401, has my 1401 materials, and several others, not very well organized. Feel free to copy anything to github. From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Wed Oct 7 17:42:04 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 15:42:04 -0700 Subject: Books I no longer need In-Reply-To: <038d2a36-4f95-e40c-840e-7546777f26a8@ekoan.com> References: <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel.ref@sbcglobal.net> <5d3b086262539d4240aa49d2f743bdfd14959848.camel@sbcglobal.net> <038d2a36-4f95-e40c-840e-7546777f26a8@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <42d85f0fe27f65dbd5557603986f3451c63e5d07.camel@sbcglobal.net> So far, two people have asked for "Varian Data 620/i Systems Computer Manual." So that I don't have to decide who gets it, I've put it on EBay for a7- day auction with a starting bid of $0.99. https://www.ebay.com/itm/224184671124 id="-x-evo-selection-start-marker"> Van Snydervan.snyder at sbcglobal.net From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 18:15:04 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:15:04 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20201007222617.42F7B2AAA96@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20201007222617.42F7B2AAA96@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <7b006fc2-76d1-0595-f1b1-2dc4de3a0b0a@alembic.crystel.com> Well, the solution is simple: Build a UNibus to USB interface so SIMH can use the physical devices properly. That can't be too hard... C On 10/7/2020 6:26 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated > emulation. I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that > Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated > systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine > at least. > > http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html > > De > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 18:31:01 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:31:01 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:56 PM Bob Smith wrote: > Sig 2652 is an alternative to the 5025. 5025 is based on the DP11 MSI > design by Frank Zereski at dec, the 26t2 is based on my design for the > DMC/KMC line units that could run DDCM{< BiSync-ADDCP-BDLC Good to know about both of those chips. I happen to have several dozen tubes of original COM5025 chips from our old COMBOARD stock. Several lifetimes' supply. It's not like people are building modem-speed sync serial boards anymore. -ethan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Oct 7 17:42:38 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 07 Oct 2020 23:42:38 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01RQJOJC5LUO8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh. That > would have to be written in any case. The DU11 and DUV11 are very > simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART. It would not be > a huge undertaking to write up a module to emulate one and attach it > to the virtual bus and have it also just open up a TCP socket. > > One could use 'netcat' or something similar to open up and talk to > both the PDP-11 socket and the Hercules socket to make the connection. > This is (more or less, not exactly) what the orginal 2703/bisync emulation in Hercules does but it is not really sufficient for RJE, for a number of reasons. The bisync/RJE protocol is a great fit for being generated by hardware and being sent over a dedicated line. It is a poor fit for being generated by software and being sent over a shared TCP/IP network. There is lots of bandwidth wasting chatter and lots of CPU is consumed in mostly achieving nothing useful. The bisync/RJE protocol needs a close to real-time response and is not a good fit for a network which can produce variable delays. Buffers in applications tend to be organised on a just-in-time basis. The flow control needs to be able to tell the far end to stop sending data immediately and dribble in shortly as network buffers get cleared or unexpectedly delayed packets arrive. One end also expects that once data is successfully sent out, it is practically sure to arrive almost immediately at the far end, not get piled into buffers and suffer random delays. (I have tried assuming that if sufficient TCP/IP network bandwidth is provided, the flow control will not get triggered. This didn't work. In practice, if one end has data to send, it will keep blasting it out until the far end tells it to stop and then it expects it to stop near instantly.) Applications tend to be coded with fixed, short timeout values. Interesting stuff happens if the TCP/IP socket is not connected when attempts are made to send data. Applications tend to assume that any errors are fatal and they just give up. The link I included describes how to avoid these difficulties for NJE by using a very different protocol which is specifically designed for sending NJE over TCP/IP networks. I believe a similar approach is needed to do RJE successfully, especially if it is to end up working across the internet rather than just across a lab under ideal conditions. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 18:41:05 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:41:05 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20201007222617.42F7B2AAA96@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20201007222617.42F7B2AAA96@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 6:26 PM Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > Folks seem to be mostly going at hardware here, but the o.p. indicated > emulation. Indeed. I brought up real hardware because that is the foundation of my knowledge of RJE but I wasn't intending to propose that as a solution. I've been describing a way to tackle this problem with emulation, including having to write an emulator for a DEC sync serial board since that part is nowhere to be found right now. > I'll point out, since I haven't seen mention of it, that > Kevin Jordan's Nostalgic Computing Center has many of its emulated > systems linked via RJE - the Cybers, the Primes, and the VM/CMS machine > at least. > > http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org/index.html That's definitely cool, and I see they have the 4381 connected to the CDC Cyber 175 via HASP. That's definitely the link to inspect for implementation details. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 18:47:15 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:47:15 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <01RQJOJC5LUO8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <01RQJOJC5LUO8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:32 PM Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > Ethan Dicks wrote: > > There are no implementations of sync serial devices in Simh. That > > would have to be written in any case. The DU11 and DUV11 are very > > simple PIO serial lines with, IIRC, a COM5025 USART... > > This is (more or less, not exactly) what the orginal 2703/bisync emulation > in Hercules does... > > The bisync/RJE protocol is a great fit for being generated by hardware and > being sent over a dedicated line. It is a poor fit for being generated > by software and being sent over a shared TCP/IP network. I completely agree. It's terribly chatty and expects turnarounds very, very quickly. The OP didn't indicate the distance of what he wanted to accomplish, so I've just been considering both ends are in the same room, not in two different locations - i.e., a demo not a real-world production-ready solution. > There is lots > of bandwidth wasting chatter and lots of CPU is consumed in mostly achieving > nothing useful. Totally. > Applications tend to be coded with fixed, short timeout values. Yes. > The link I included describes how to avoid these difficulties for NJE > by using a very different protocol which is specifically designed for sending > NJE over TCP/IP networks. I believe a similar approach is needed to do RJE > successfully, especially if it is to end up working across the internet rather > than just across a lab under ideal conditions. Indeed. If the goal is to have it work across the internet rather than across the room, yes, an additional management layer is needed. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 18:50:46 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:50:46 -0400 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3c0f69f7-2ae5-b219-3f7e-c35e25369508@alembic.crystel.com> CC:Mail could run in two ways. For the longest time it was just a shared file on a network server that all the clients pointed to. Well, a directory, and this is part of the reason it got corrupted as hell. Rebuilding CC:Mail usually required shutting down the PO (writing a file that told the clients to go away) and rebuilding. That's why the gateway systems worked, they just talked to the same folder and stuck files in the input and output directories. The SMTP tool required a unix box to send mail (it was too stupid to really do it by itself) and to CC:Mail it looked like a "foreign" post office. I think at the end they had a true client-server model, but by that time Notes was a much better solution. The other fun email system at the time was WordPerfect Office. That one ran as an NLM and once again it was file based from the client but corrupted a lot less. And once again SMTP was a foreign PO, and in fact Crystelcom was founded as a way to use the Wordperfect Async Gateway to hook up to a modem to the client's server that would call my house every hour and deliver internet mail to my post office which also had a copy of Wordperfect plus a SMTP gateway. And pick up their mail, at 14.4kbps with compression it was pretty quick. A pair of Sun 386i's (beaker and bunsen) then served as DNS servers for the client's domain as well as smtp servers for outbound and inbound mail. I did the same thing for Microsoft mail, but it sucked more and to be honest that was why I was loathe to support CC:Mail. For $100 a month it was a steal for a lot of small companies and nonprofits to communicate on the Internet. And for me it was simple as dirt, I just needed a pair of phone lines to handle the incoming calls and mail would queue up. Outbound internet was a Trailblazer modem to my ISP of the time running ppp from one of the 386i's. If two clients called at the same time one would get a busy and would call back later (5m). If the mail server crashed mail would just queue and be delivered when I rebooted it. It was literally a "open mailbox, hello check" and paid for a good chunk of the down payment on the house. Oddly enough the most valuable thing was that companies registered their domains (through me) years before the great rush. This is why a lot of small non-profits have domain names that reflect their initials as opposed to crap. I never charged a transfer fee when they finally got their T1 lines, that would have been evil. Ultimately closed it down when the web got popular. I thought of getting big by going into massive debt and hooking in T1's to the customers but the company was profitable, simple, it served its purpose and I was ok with letting it go. Probably a wise decision, my ISP actually made a profit :-) Ah those were the days. CZ On 10/7/2020 4:13 PM, Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > My recollection of the cc:Mail SMTP Gateway (that now sounds like the > right name to me) was that it was definitely bidirectional with > respect to SMTP/internet traffic. There were differences in that > inbound and outbound processing were rather different internally IIRC, > but that was pretty much transparent to the user. My recollection of > cc:Mail itself was that it was indeed a full server that clients > interacted with over a network connection. I *think* we ran it on > Netware with IPX/SPX as the client network transport in those days > (but again my memory could be faulty), and eventually got the SMTP > Gateway to get internet gateway connectivity and it ran on a minimal > PC system as a dedicated server. I seem to recall waiting a year or > more for the SMTP Gateway to finally become available. It seemed like > a rather half-assed solution compared to the Lotus Notes gateway etc. > which I think may have run as native Netware NLMs rather than needing > the kludgy PC gateway. This would all have been in like 1990-95-ish > give-or-take I think. > > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 2:57 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> >> On 10/7/20 1:46 PM, Tomas By wrote: >>> Well, theoretically, you could have another program that emulates >>> the PO server side. >> >> I think that we have different understandings of what the Post Office is >> in older email systems. >> >> To me, the Post Office, is a collection of files that live in a >> directory structure. Said file / directory structure is then directly >> accessed by the email client. As in the email client reads from and >> writes to files, meaning that it does not talk to a program / daemon / >> service across the network. It's just that this collection of files & >> directories lived on a common network drive. >> >>> It does not need to anything other than get the mails and talk to >>> the client >> >> But, based on my understanding, the cc:Mail client doesn't talk to a >> server. It reads / writes files directly. Hence the need to have >> something else, e.g. the gateway, communicate between the P.O. and the >> rest of the world. >> >> I don't see how you can avoid the P.O.'s file / directory structure. >> >> Maybe I'm wrong. >> >>> (over PC serial port). >> >> Hum. That make make things more entertaining. >> >> Is the serial port for communications between the cc:Mail client and the >> cc:Mail P.O.? Or is the serial port how you will need to >> interface with the rest of the world? >> >>> My understanding is that the SMTP gateway is out from PO only. >> >> I don't know. The MS-Mail SMTP gateway that I messed with was both >> inbound from the world and outbound to the world. But the cc:Mail >> gateway could easily have been different. Of course, SMTP is not the >> same thing as pulling from POP3 or IMAP. But, fortunately fetchmail (et >> al.) can act as the gateway between POP3/IMAP and SMTP to talk to >> another gateway between SMTP and cc:Mail P.O. >> >> Moving parts (read: things that can go wrong), there are a lot of them. ;-) >> >> >> >> -- >> Grant. . . . >> unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 19:13:22 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 18:13:22 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 2:10 PM, Tomas By wrote: > Well, we are talking past each other. When I say client/server I > mean the connection over serial port/modem between the mobile client, > not on the same LAN as the PO, and the PO. You've piqued my interest. I've done some more reading on cc:Mail. It seems that you're talking about cc:Mail /Mobile/, and not cc:Mail (proper). It seems as if cc:Mail /Mobile/ is an add-on product meant to allow mobile users access a cc:Mail Post Office. There is a more true client / server version of cc:Mail, but it was apparently named cc:Guardian. There were also the SMTP, POP3, and IMAP gateways for cc:Mail Post Offices. Per the Readme.1st file on the cc:Mail 8.1 CD-ROM that I'm looking at: - cc:Mail IMAP Server - cc:Mail POP3 Server - cc:Mail Link to SMTP - cc:Mail Mobile Among many other things. Also, per the Readme.1st file, cc:Mail 8.1, including it's cc:Mail /Mobile/ add-on used a Post Office directory structure. Some of the reading that I did today indicated that even cc:Mail Mobile used a Post Office. It's just that it was a local single person Post Office and that cc:Mail Mobile did some sort of undefined communications over the modem connection. As such, I'm guessing that this cc:Mail Mobile communications protocol is quite proprietary. Wikipedia's cc:Mail article indicates that cc:Mail Remote was developed for a few HP *LX devices. If the cc:Mail that you have on your device is the cc:Mail Mobile or Remote that is meant to connect to cc:Mail Mobile in the central office, then I think I may have a solution for you. Fetchmail -> cc:Mail SMTP -> Internet SMTP server ^ | V cc:Mail PO ^ | V cc:Mail Mobile ^ : : : V cc:Mail Remote I think that the top three lines could likely run one system. Do you think this might do what you are wanting to do? After all, it seems like it's cc:Mail's answer to your question. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Oct 7 19:05:41 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:05:41 -0500 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: cool collection nice to see a honeywell h316 in minty shape. still never ever seen any phillips around witch also did a rebadge of the h316 in red On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:59 PM Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 2020-10-07 at 13:14 -0500, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > > I received permission to share this link. These are in a personal > > collection in Finland. Don't drool too hard :-) > > https://imgur.com/gallery/7TKl5YH > > I visited Haus zur Geschichte der IBM Datenverarbeitung (House of the > History of IBM Data Processing) in Sindelfingen twice before the > collection was moved across the Autobahn to the IBM Technology Center > in Boeblingen. > > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipOlJ8ZB6COe4u6alT5Hah9mTph8QqaFxP37naSOsjAeW9IJvcf8kJxypT7XPYWCkw?key=UEpwNV93bE4zcEdPSzJVb1dJUmpjelAweVNYMFRn > > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPN1bSdVWEVA5aykENlOEWm4aG290s9-BU-NFUz702oAei0qme7Owkntg-VN6P9lQ?key=d2NDSTFQNVJSbHpPQ0ZzWFN3Ny13OHBjby1pZlVR > > Several of the computers at Sindelfingen were in working order, in > particular a 403, 650, 1401 and 360/25. The 650 belonged to a museum > in Vienna. I think it was sent back. I hope it survived the journey in > working order. Their keypunches worked. I punched a few one-card 1401 > programs to clear up some confusion/imprecision in the manuals to > correct/confirm the SimH 1401 simulator. > > I visited John Zabolitsky's collection at Neubiberg, a southeastern > suburb of Munich: > > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipPGeVphL95gtsGIO96iU4APdtSRnHhcm1y4-YaPspa6_jDuAZw6cfD3FR3OFr8czw?key=MjJZNUVjMWtLRkVKbmF2TnFDa3ZneDM0WWFqZ0hB > > They sell time on their VAX. I think some of the other machines work, > too, but the VAX was the only one running when I visited. > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Oct 7 19:28:45 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 20:28:45 -0400 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 7, 2020, at 8:05 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > cool collection nice to see a honeywell h316 in minty shape. > > still never ever seen any phillips around witch also did a rebadge of the > h316 in red Was that the P9200? I remember the one at the Evoluon in Eindhoven, the control computer for the Senster interactive sculpture. The code for that still exists, not sure about the schematics. The sculpture skeleton also still exists, quite amazingly. paul From gavin at learn.bio Wed Oct 7 19:47:28 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:47:28 -0500 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > The sculpture skeleton also still exists, quite amazingly. Seems to be doing even better than that... http://senster.agh.edu.pl/ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 19:52:52 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 18:52:52 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <3c0f69f7-2ae5-b219-3f7e-c35e25369508@alembic.crystel.com> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c0f69f7-2ae5-b219-3f7e-c35e25369508@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <404db61f-c58b-d6f1-005e-e02ee8a75ec2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 5:50 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > CC:Mail could run in two ways. For the longest time it was just a shared > file on a network server that all the clients pointed to. Well, a > directory, and this is part of the reason it got corrupted as hell. > Rebuilding CC:Mail usually required shutting down the PO (writing a file > that told the clients to go away) and rebuilding. That's why the gateway > systems worked, they just talked to the same folder and stuck files in > the input and output directories. The SMTP tool required a unix box to > send mail (it was too stupid to really do it by itself) and to CC:Mail > it looked like a "foreign" post office. > > I think at the end they had a true client-server model, but by that time > Notes was a much better solution. See my reply at 6:13 for comments about cc:Guardian / IMAP / POP3. > The other fun email system at the time was WordPerfect Office. Was that (the precursor to) GroupWise? Or something independent? > That one ran as an NLM and once again it was file based from the > client but corrupted a lot less. And once again SMTP was a foreign PO, > and in fact Crystelcom was founded as a way to use the Wordperfect > Async Gateway to hook up to a modem to the client's server that would > call my house every hour and deliver internet mail to my post office > which also had a copy of Wordperfect plus a SMTP gateway. And pick > up their mail, at 14.4kbps with compression it was pretty quick. A > pair of Sun 386i's (beaker and bunsen) then served as DNS servers for > the client's domain as well as smtp servers for outbound and inbound > mail. I did the same thing for Microsoft mail, but it sucked more > and to be honest that was why I was loathe to support CC:Mail. Why were you loathe to support cc:Mail? Did Microsoft Mail and / or the WordPerfect Office thing produce more income? > For $100 a month it was a steal for a lot of small companies and > nonprofits to communicate on the Internet. And for me it was simple as > dirt, I just needed a pair of phone lines to handle the incoming calls > and mail would queue up. Outbound internet was a Trailblazer modem to my > ISP of the time running ppp from one of the 386i's. For the time, and the service you were providing, I'd say that was a good price. > If two clients called at the same time one would get a busy and would > call back later (5m). If the mail server crashed mail would just queue > and be delivered when I rebooted it. It was literally a "open mailbox, > hello check" and paid for a good chunk of the down payment on the house. > > Oddly enough the most valuable thing was that companies registered their > domains (through me) years before the great rush. This is why a lot of > small non-profits have domain names that reflect their initials as > opposed to crap. I never charged a transfer fee when they finally got > their T1 lines, that would have been evil. > > Ultimately closed it down when the web got popular. I thought of getting > big by going into massive debt and hooking in T1's to the customers but > the company was profitable, simple, it served its purpose and I was ok > with letting it go. Probably a wise decision, my ISP actually made a > profit :-) > > Ah those were the days. Interesting story. Thank you for sharing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tomas at basun.net Wed Oct 7 19:57:26 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 02:57:26 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <87sgapwn49.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 02:13:22 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've done some more reading on cc:Mail. It seems that you're talking > about cc:Mail /Mobile/, and not cc:Mail (proper). Well, both? According to the "about" window in the client on the 200LX, it is indeed "cc:Mail mobile", but I believe I also need to set up a "normal" post office. (The 200LX manual does not say anything specific about versions.) > There were also the SMTP, POP3, and IMAP gateways for cc:Mail Post > Offices. [...] Yes, it may have been 8.1 I looked at a while ago. At that time I had the impression the SMTP gateway only handled outgoing mail, but that does not really make sense, and apparently it handles both directions. > Fetchmail -> cc:Mail SMTP -> Internet SMTP server > ^ > | > V > cc:Mail PO > ^ > | > V > cc:Mail Mobile > ^ > : > : > : > V > cc:Mail Remote > > I think that the top three lines could likely run one system. Well, I think the bottom two are the same (i.e. delete "mobile" and change "remote"->"mobile"). I was able to connect the 200LX to a Post Office using null modem with no "mobile" or "remote" add-on installed on the windows PC, if I remember correctly. I think "mobile" was a product for laptops, and the one on the 200LX was a minimal version of that. > Do you think this might do what you are wanting to do? After all, it > seems like it's cc:Mail's answer to your question. Yes, probably. All I can say is that it did not seem so simple when I looked at it some time ago. (I think my problem was that I did not consider Fetchmail. I was looking for that functionality in the cc:Mail documentation.) /Tomas From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 20:41:03 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 19:41:03 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87sgapwn49.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87sgapwn49.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <55de834b-a2db-63cc-8ad3-252729190b19@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 6:57 PM, Tomas By wrote: > Well, both? According to the "about" window in the client on the 200LX, > it is indeed "cc:Mail mobile", but I believe I also need to set up a > "normal" post office. (The 200LX manual does not say anything specific > about versions.) I'm betting that there's a nomenclature collision. Specifically, it sounds like some versions of the mobile client use "cc:Mail Mobile" and possibly others use "cc:Mail Remote". It also sounds like the central office also uses "cc:Mail Mobile" as what the client dials into. So simply stating "cc:Mail Mobile" is ambiguous to which end of the connection is being discussed and what technology is used therein. > Yes, it may have been 8.1 I looked at a while ago. At that time I had > the impression the SMTP gateway only handled outgoing mail, but that > does not really make sense, and apparently it handles both directions. It may have been that there wasn't a solution to get email inbound to you. That jives with your "SMTP gateway only handled outgoing mail" memory. After all, I'm suggesting fetchmail to do the inbound to the SMTP server from the POP3 / IMAP provider. ;-) > Well, I think the bottom two are the same (i.e. delete "mobile" > and change "remote"->"mobile"). I don't think they are. They may be the same software / product. But they are serving two distinct functions. The upper one is what allows road warrior clients to dial into, the "server" service if you will. The lower one is the road warrior "client" which does the dialing. Ergo, I don't think they are the same thing. They are probably in different (logical if not physical) locations too. Fetchmail -> cc:Mail SMTP -> Internet SMTP server ^ | V cc:Mail PO ^ | V cc:Mail Mobile ^ : Corporate Office LAN -------------------:----------------------------- : Road Warrior V cc:Mail Remote > I was able to connect the 200LX to a Post Office using null modem > with no "mobile" or "remote" add-on installed on the windows PC, > if I remember correctly. What software were you running on the 200LX? There are ways to extend the Corporate Office LAN over a modem connection. There's a chance that various versions of cc:Mail include the client portion that connects to the corporate server. (That would actually make a lot of sense.) > I think "mobile" was a product for laptops, and the one on the 200LX > was a minimal version of that. Hum. My read is that cc:Mail Mobile is also the server side product that allows dialing in and exchanging email. > Yes, probably. All I can say is that it did not seem so simple when > I looked at it some time ago. The lack of fetchmail (or something like it) means that things get more complicated and you likely have to play email routing games, which are non-trivial. > (I think my problem was that I did not consider Fetchmail. I was > looking for that functionality in the cc:Mail documentation.) Remember, back in thee '90s, people weren't normally trying to do things like pull email from an ISP's server into a local server with things like fetchmail. Instead, they would have their ISP's be an SMTP Relay for their domain and use normal SMTP routing to get email into their SMTP server. The latter function is something that cc:Mail's Link to SMTP will quite happily do. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 7 20:43:05 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 21:43:05 -0400 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <404db61f-c58b-d6f1-005e-e02ee8a75ec2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c0f69f7-2ae5-b219-3f7e-c35e25369508@alembic.crystel.com> <404db61f-c58b-d6f1-005e-e02ee8a75ec2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6b95f180-9156-bac0-fcf1-cababc934afa@alembic.crystel.com> > See my reply at 6:13 for comments about cc:Guardian / IMAP / POP3. I don't remember Guardian, but I do remember CC:Remote. It did use an interface system it would call and copy down the person's mailbox file as a weird sub-mailbox. I mean it worked, but it was a pain. >> The other fun email system at the time was WordPerfect Office. > > Was that (the precursor to) GroupWise?? Or something independent? Yes. Novell bought it from Wordperfect Inc, and re-badged Office to GroupWise. Groupwise could run as a shared file model or a client-server system with a POA running on NLMs. That worked pretty well, and I used that at Science from 2000-2013 or so. But it still had the SMTP NLM. > Why were you loathe to support cc:Mail?? Did Microsoft Mail and / or the > WordPerfect Office thing produce more income? CC:Mail was very parsnickity and blew up a lot. Likewise the SMTP gateway was very unreliable, I finally ran it on OS/2, but that wasn't around in late 1980's/early 90's. >> Ah those were the days. > > Interesting story.? Thank you for sharing. Sure! One of these days I really need to write all this stuff down. There was a lot going on at the dawn of the internet age, I still remember when we had the ceiling collapse at the Computer Society because all the serial cables in the ceiling for the VAX overloaded the drop ceiling. It was a funny moment that morning, a Sparc20 smushed under a ceiling. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 7 21:00:32 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 20:00:32 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <6b95f180-9156-bac0-fcf1-cababc934afa@alembic.crystel.com> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3c0f69f7-2ae5-b219-3f7e-c35e25369508@alembic.crystel.com> <404db61f-c58b-d6f1-005e-e02ee8a75ec2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6b95f180-9156-bac0-fcf1-cababc934afa@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7a16a128-2a38-0d9b-59b2-7a39af14e228@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/7/20 7:43 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I don't remember Guardian, but I do remember CC:Remote. It did use an > interface system it would call and copy down the person's mailbox file > as a weird sub-mailbox. I mean it worked, but it was a pain. Ya. Any time you try to have a local / cached copy of a mail box things get interesting. The *ONLY* thing that I've seen handle it well is Lotus Notes & Domino. > Yes. Novell bought it from Wordperfect Inc, and re-badged Office to > GroupWise. Groupwise could run as a shared file model or a client-server > system with a POA running on NLMs. That worked pretty well, and I used > that at Science from 2000-2013 or so. Interesting. Now WordPerfect Office is on my to mess with list at some point. cc:Mail has been on it. That particular itch is being scratched now. > But it still had the SMTP NLM. :-) > CC:Mail was very parsnickity and blew up a lot. Likewise the SMTP > gateway was very unreliable, I finally ran it on OS/2, but that wasn't > around in late 1980's/early 90's. Ah. Such was the case with most Post Office / shared directory structure mail systems. > Sure! One of these days I really need to write all this stuff down. :-) > There was a lot going on at the dawn of the internet age, I still > remember when we had the ceiling collapse at the Computer Society > because all the serial cables in the ceiling for the VAX overloaded the > drop ceiling. > > It was a funny moment that morning, a Sparc20 smushed under a ceiling. Funny "ha ha" or "uh oh"? I'm betting the latter. At least at the time. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tomas at basun.net Thu Oct 8 03:38:32 2020 From: tomas at basun.net (Tomas By) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 10:38:32 +0200 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <55de834b-a2db-63cc-8ad3-252729190b19@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87sgapwn49.wl-tomas@basun.net> <55de834b-a2db-63cc-8ad3-252729190b19@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <87mu0xw1rr.wl-tomas@basun.net> On Thu, 08 Oct 2020 03:41:03 +0200, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/7/20 6:57 PM, Tomas By wrote: > > [...] I think the bottom two are the same (i.e. delete "mobile" and > > change "remote"->"mobile"). > > I don't think they are. > > They may be the same software / product. But they are serving two > distinct functions. The upper one is what allows road warrior clients > to dial into, the "server" service if you will. The lower one is the > road warrior "client" which does the dialing. I meant products. In your terms (I believe), the upper bit is part of the PO and the lower one is "mobile". (There may have been some evolution, so that in earlier versions the dialling-in server was a separate thing.) > [...] What software were you running on the 200LX? [...] > My read is that cc:Mail Mobile is also the server side product that > allows dialing in and exchanging email. It's in ROM on the 200LX. When I select Help/About in the app, it says "cc:Mail mobile". I cannot find anything in the manual, but I am sure I have read it elsewhere also. I cannot remember seeing "cc:Mail remote" anywhere, until now. /Tomas From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 07:42:28 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 14:42:28 +0200 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Den ons 7 okt. 2020 kl 22:19 skrev Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > > However, I know of at least two projects which implement bisync line to > TCP/IP gateways to interface to IBM terminals using additional hardware. > Perhaps it might be possible to adapt one or both to do RJE? Here is one > of them: > > http://www.9track.net/hercules/dlsw/ > > I can't quite put a hand on a url for the other one right now but the > author posts here regularly so hopefully he will chime in. > > > Actually Matt Burke's project is about SNA/SDLC, not BSC. He is using the 3705 emulation in Hercules, not the 2703 emulation that is in commadpt.c I have been working a bit with Hercules and BSC. There are a number of things that are a bit peculiar with the Hercules implementation since it simply pushes the bytes it receives from the channel program onto the TCP socket. All the bytes added by the 2703 itself is omitted. This means: 1. No CRC bytes are sent 2. No leading SYN SYN are sent. SYN can be seen in the stream if added by the channel program as a time fill. 3. No Trailing PAD is sent. The read turn-around takes place immediately as soon as the bytes are pushed into the socket. So if the actual sending of the bytes takes longer time the 2703 emulation will not notice this. Something that can be problematic with real world serial lines. There is a tiny bug in Hercules 3.13 that has to be fixed to get it working properly. https://github.com/rbowler/spinhawk/issues/94 Trying to use BSC in Hyperion-SDL 4.xx causes a core dump. https://github.com/SDL-Hercules-390/hyperion/issues/319 I have successfully used the Hercules BSC implementation with the bug fixed to attach a real BSC connected 3270 compatible terminal. Here are some information: https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/tree/master/Utils/BSCGateway/BSCBridge and https://github.com/MattisLind/alfaskop_emu/ https://youtu.be/H1Sxt7xjn4Y https://youtu.be/CFfB3yCN9OI /Mattis From jim.manley at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 11:08:47 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 09:08:47 -0700 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: If you try to access the paper describing the 2017 - 2018 restoration work, you soon crash into an academic publication paywall, but if you're persistent enough, as my frugal, self-funded computing and robotics students and I are, you will eventually find this link to the PDF of the paper at the authors' institution, Akademia G?rniczo-Hutnicza University of Science and Technology in Krak?w, Poland: http://senster.agh.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ms_version_Senster_Reactivation_of_a_Cybernetic_Sculpture_Leonardo.pdf Enjoy! Jim KJ7JHE On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 5:47 PM Gavin Scott via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 7:29 PM Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: > > The sculpture skeleton also still exists, quite amazingly. > > Seems to be doing even better than that... > > http://senster.agh.edu.pl/ > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 8 12:10:55 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 13:10:55 -0400 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <1B41A30C-7569-4F45-BD64-8B69DE81512D@comcast.net> > On Oct 8, 2020, at 12:08 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > If you try to access the paper describing the 2017 - 2018 restoration work, > you soon crash into an academic publication paywall, but if you're > persistent enough, as my frugal, self-funded computing and robotics > students and I are, you will eventually find this link to the PDF of the > paper at the authors' institution, Akademia G?rniczo-Hutnicza University of > Science and Technology in Krak?w, Poland: > > http://senster.agh.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ms_version_Senster_Reactivation_of_a_Cybernetic_Sculpture_Leonardo.pdf > > Enjoy! > Jim KJ7JHE Wonderful, thanks. I noticed the article mentions that the original source code exists but was not used. The reasons don't seem all that compelling; it would seem possible to run the original in an emulator. Getting the timing accurate is something SIMH can do pretty well. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 8 13:02:00 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 12:02:00 -0600 Subject: cc:Mail In-Reply-To: <87mu0xw1rr.wl-tomas@basun.net> References: <878sci9lpy.wl-tomas@basun.net> <400d89e9-7d15-e4ef-e62e-7c40eabe15fe@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87ft6pzvzo.wl-tomas@basun.net> <87a6wxzumz.wl-tomas@basun.net> <19282763-9306-d384-35c0-1d1082bbe4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <877ds1ztjh.wl-tomas@basun.net> <4c8e0b9e-4b06-dc54-82e3-552956d2447d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87sgapwn49.wl-tomas@basun.net> <55de834b-a2db-63cc-8ad3-252729190b19@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <87mu0xw1rr.wl-tomas@basun.net> Message-ID: <8b7cf096-082a-6da6-6326-d32176f52775@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/8/20 2:38 AM, Tomas By wrote: > I meant products. In your terms (I believe), the upper bit is part > of the PO and the lower one is "mobile". > > (There may have been some evolution, so that in earlier versions the > dialling-in server was a separate thing.) It seems like we're in agreement about functionality and that we're down to terminology applied to the various functions. > It's in ROM on the 200LX. When I select Help/About in the app, it > says "cc:Mail mobile". I cannot find anything in the manual, but > I am sure I have read it elsewhere also. I cannot remember seeing > "cc:Mail remote" anywhere, until now. Terminology, thanks to product evolution and marketing whims is probably ... nebulous if not actually ambiguous. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 8 14:39:15 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 15:39:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 Message-ID: <20201008193915.D859B18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > a DEC sync serial board since that part is nowhere to be found right > now. I dunno, I see them fairly often on eBait (well, often compared to some other things, e.g. TU56 parts... :-) QBUS or UNIBUS? And there are lots of different ones, which I confess I don't fully understand the difference between (e.g. DP11, DQ11, DU11, DUP11, DV11) - some of it's single-line/multi-line, and DMA/programmed I/O, but from what few details I looked at - while doing: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DP11-A_synchronous_serial_line_interface http://gunkies.org/wiki/DUP11_synchronous_serial_line_interface there are also differences in exactly which protocools are supported, etc, etc, etc, etc. Noel From dave at mitton.com Thu Oct 8 14:11:32 2020 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 15:11:32 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 Message-ID: <20201008191151.E73DE2748C@mx1.ezwind.net> >Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:43 -0700 >From: Glen Slick >Subject: Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11 > >On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days > > > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous > > > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: > > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 > > > > > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected > > > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not > > > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working > > > configuration. > > > > That model number isn't familiar. > > > > A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and > does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host. The > idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block > transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed. > > > > That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything > on its own". The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus > CSRs. If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse > engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that > doesn't rely on a KMC-11. > > > > paul > >Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own" >directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only >has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The >connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg >connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the >40-pin Berg connector would be needed. My first job at DEC was to release the KMC-11 Programmer's Tools support for RSX-11. (I didn't write them from scratch, two other engineers did that, but I did do final debug and QA) We provided two firmware kit products; the CommIOP-DUP and DZ, which controlled the DUP-11 and DZ-11 respectively. The KMC-11 could do NPR bus transfers to/from the devices, and the CommIOP-DUP firmware could do Bisync or X.25 type framing so that you got an RSX-11 driver with a packet interface, vs byte at a time. The CommIO-DZ firmware provided various customizable state driven things as you might want for a line driven terminal concentrator. I'm pretty sure the packages came with the "source" code, so you could customize it if you could understand it. The DMC-11 did DDMCP support and was basically a KMC with ROM in the control store. And it did use that external connector to the proprietary network interface card, DMC-11DA. In later years, I wrote and released a KMC Tools package for VMS-11. That came with a VMS DMA LP-11 line printer driver I authored. I don't remember if the CommIOP tools were supported. Some VMS engineers didn't like these products. (another story) (That didn't stop the Lab products guys in Marlboro from using them for their applications) There was a later version called the KMC-11B which doubled the memory and probably ran faster too. It was the same board as the DMP-11 product which was an improved version of the DMC-11. These were quad Unibus boards. In the Q bus world, there was a 6502 based I/O processor card developed (outside of Networks) (as one-chip micros became available) as well. I have a KMC-11 Programmer's Manual here... I think you'll need a print set to figure out that connector. Dave. From petermallan at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 16:38:54 2020 From: petermallan at gmail.com (Peter Allan) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 22:38:54 +0100 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks to everyone who has sent suggestions about remote job submission from a simulated PDP-11 to a simulated IBM/370. Although I do want to get this working on a simulated PDP-11 running RSX-11M, the mention of the Unix 'send' command grabbed my attention, since that rings a vague bell in my memory that there might have been a 'send' command on the RSX-11M machine that I used in the previous millennium. This was at a university, so I can imagine someone taking the Unix code and porting it to RSX-11M. Of course, this was a long time ago and I might have a faulty memory. It would still be great to get the proper RSX-11M tools if they exist somewhere. I am prepared to have a go at writing the appropriate synchronous interface for simh if those tools do exist. I know that there is a DUP-11 device already, but the code explicitly says that it does not implement bisync. Cheers to all Peter Allan On Wed, 7 Oct 2020 at 10:07, Peter Allan wrote: > Hi folks, > > I am looking for the following software products for a PDP-11, ideally to > be run on RSX-11M. > > RJE/HASP > > 2780/3780 Protocol Emulator > > My aim is to be able to submit a remote job from a simulated PDP-11 on > simh to a simulated IBM/370 on Hercules. The products that I mentioned seem > the obvious way to do this, but anything that works would be helpful. > > Cheers > > Peter Allan > From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Thu Oct 8 18:57:01 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Thu, 08 Oct 2020 23:57:01 +0000 Subject: Looking For Computer Automation LSI-3/05 Documentation Message-ID: <3MqE-nzeiUpsbsvGJQwDjzve3KfAbefN28AG04DUScHWVOa8FDntOzuALq2m282KXWhw_-2wlamVassDFzH5Tc81cEvlkoKhZEyggtrzFmE=@protonmail.com> Hello. I have two card cages out of a pair of Linotron 202 phototypesetting machines, and have been hunting for documentation for the Naked Mini systems used in them for over a year now. The Computer Automation CPU boards in the systems have been a complete mystery to me until recently. To make a long story short, I happened to stumble across the patent for the machine (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4254468A/en), which has the same bus configuration as my card cages, and also provides some good evidence that "Naked Milli" 3/05 CPU boards were used. I've found documentation for the LSI 3/05's instruction set and an informative brochure, but nothing technical. Bitsavers has been a great help in my efforts to uncover more information about this processor, but there's still a lot of technical information that has eluded me (such as the autoload ROM, and how its data is arranged). The LSI-series computer handbook mentions a dedicated manual for the LSI 3/05, but I haven't found anything else about it online. If anyone has any information about the LSI 3/05, or where I might look for the manual, it'd be greatly appreciated. Thanks. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 19:48:26 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 20:48:26 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20201008193915.D859B18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201008193915.D859B18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:39 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > a DEC sync serial board since that part is nowhere to be found right > > now. > > I dunno, I see them fairly often on eBait (well, often compared to some other > things, e.g. TU56 parts... :-) "Part" in this case is "part of the whole", not "computer part"... The part that is missing in that paragraph is code for Simh that emulates a DEC sync serial board. Real DEC sync serial boards aren't that hard to find because almost nobody has a use for them. > QBUS or UNIBUS? And there are lots of different ones, which I confess I don't > fully understand the difference between (e.g. DP11, DQ11, DU11, DUP11, DV11) - > some of it's single-line/multi-line, and DMA/programmed I/O, but from what few > details I looked at - while doing: Yes. There are many varieties, both Unibus and Qbus. They have different serial chips and different host-bus register sets, which is why I said first one needs to identify which application is to be used, _then_ choose which board to emulate (or purchase for real hardware). > there are also differences in exactly which protocools are supported, > etc, etc, etc, etc. Yes. It all matters. This stuff used to be hard. People used to give us $25,000 to solve the problem. -ethan From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Thu Oct 8 17:28:07 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Thu, 8 Oct 2020 18:28:07 -0400 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <20201008191151.E73DE2748C@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20201008191151.E73DE2748C@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Hey Dave, I think the two guys working the tools originally were Bob Rosenbaum and Harvey Schlesinger. You are pretty much correct on the diffs between KMC and DMC. KMC had 180NS instruction time, and larger ram than the DMC iirc on that point. I worked on both with Remi Lissee. I designed the DMC line units, and the line united we used in the Autodin II system - CSS took over the cards. DOn't forget about the Triax with special modem built i for DMC11. Those were done for JPL and some others... The COMM IOP for Autodin II handled a separate set of cards, sync or async - supporting SDLC/BiSYNC,and Isoc. After the design of the Autodin chips were done - 2652/5025 - the spec was changed to add a couple of new CRC requirements, mathematically insignificant but algorithms designed by Georgia Tech and Cartwr was in office.... So, Zereski and I did a drop in chip that would add that algorithm set in addition to the nrom VRC/LRC/CRC one we had already done i nthe chips - 2652 was mine, 5025 was Frank Z's. bob smith badge xxxx On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 3:11 PM Dave Mitton via cctech wrote: > > > >Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 11:29:43 -0700 > >From: Glen Slick > >Subject: Re: Remote job submission from PDP-11 > > > >On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 11:04 AM Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > > > On Oct 7, 2020, at 12:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > I was curious about this DEC M8704 DMS11-DA that sold cheap a few days > > > > ago. It has eight SMC COM5025 "Multi-Protocol Universal Synchronous > > > > Receiver/Transmitter USYNR/T" chips: > > > > > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/373243388363 > > > > > > > > Apparently it can't do anything on its own. It needs to be connected > > > > to a UNIBUS through a companion KMC11 processor board, which might not > > > > be too common if someone wanted to put together a working > > > > configuration. > > > > > > That model number isn't familiar. > > > > > > A KMC-11 is simply a microprocessor that sits on the Unibus and > > does Unibus cycles to another device on behalf of the host. The > > idea is to offload operations so the host can ask for block > > transfers and the KMC does the individual character I/O operations needed. > > > > > > That said, it clearly is not correct that "it can't do anything > > on its own". The KMC-11 reaches into the device via its Unibus > > CSRs. If you can find a description of its operation, or reverse > > engineer it, you can clearly write a device driver for it that > > doesn't rely on a KMC-11. > > > > > > paul > > > >Well it does appear that M8704 DMS11-DA "can't do anything on its own" > >directly through the UNIBUS. From a quick visual inspection it only > >has power and grant continuity traces on the card edge connectors. The > >connection to the controlling KMC-11 is through the 40-pin Berg > >connector. So without a KMC-11 an alternate interface through the > >40-pin Berg connector would be needed. > > My first job at DEC was to release the KMC-11 Programmer's Tools > support for RSX-11. > (I didn't write them from scratch, two other engineers did that, but > I did do final debug and QA) > > We provided two firmware kit products; the CommIOP-DUP and DZ, which > controlled the DUP-11 and DZ-11 respectively. > > The KMC-11 could do NPR bus transfers to/from the devices, and the > CommIOP-DUP firmware could do Bisync or X.25 type framing so that you > got an RSX-11 driver with a packet interface, vs byte at a > time. The CommIO-DZ firmware provided various customizable state > driven things as you might want for a line driven terminal > concentrator. I'm pretty sure the packages came with the "source" > code, so you could customize it if you could understand it. > > The DMC-11 did DDMCP support and was basically a KMC with ROM in the > control store. And it did use that external connector to the > proprietary network interface card, DMC-11DA. > > In later years, I wrote and released a KMC Tools package for > VMS-11. That came with a VMS DMA LP-11 line printer driver I authored. > I don't remember if the CommIOP tools were supported. Some VMS > engineers didn't like these products. (another story) > (That didn't stop the Lab products guys in Marlboro from using them > for their applications) > > There was a later version called the KMC-11B which doubled the memory > and probably ran faster too. It was the same board as the DMP-11 > product which was an improved version of the DMC-11. > > These were quad Unibus boards. In the Q bus world, there was a 6502 > based I/O processor card developed (outside of Networks) (as one-chip > micros became available) as well. > > I have a KMC-11 Programmer's Manual here... I think you'll need a > print set to figure out that connector. > > Dave. > From bobvines00 at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 01:29:46 2020 From: bobvines00 at gmail.com (Bob Vines) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 02:29:46 -0400 Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Message: 8 > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:59:40 +0000 (UTC) > From: Thomas Moss > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? > ... > I've recently bought a TU56 for my PDP-8/e, and am looking for some > advice on getting it to work. > ... > ... I found a copy of the source for TDFRMT so I could see what > exactly was causing the "SETUP?" error. > ... Tom, I don't have a TU56 & TD8E _yet_, but really hope to get one fairly soon -- if successful, they will most assuredly require troubleshooting & repairs. Where did you find the source for TDFRMT? Also, where did you find the MAINDEC document that matches your version of the TD8E MAINDEC? I ask because I've had _great_ difficulty finding MAINDEC docs that actually match whatever MAINDEC images I've tried to use. Thanks, Bob From technoid6502 at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 15:02:20 2020 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Fri, 09 Oct 2020 16:02:20 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment Message-ID: I've not worked on 8" floppy drives, but have on tons of 5.25" single- sided drives. Older single-sided ones (usually 35-track from the 70's) had load solenoids for the pressure pads, as with a double-sided unit. The pad is to provide good contact between the media surface and the head beneath. I think older media must have ablated more than latter- day media does, as it is rare to find a single-sided 5.25" drive with a load solenoid. The pad is always in contact whenever the drive door is closed. Double-sided drives of course retained the head-load solenoid for some years, but eventually those were done away with. So, I think that unless you are using a drive 24/7, a pad in contact with the disk should not be a serious concern. That the pad IS properly in contact is important of course, and pads should be inspected to see that there is enough 'meat' left on them to provide the pressure needed. Aft of the pad, at the base of the head-sled pressure arm is a notch into which the end of the spring rides. Close examination of the sled will probably show some higher and lower notches into which you can move the end of the spring, to provide more or less pressure as needed, to tune a particular drive. In the old days, someone running a drive on a BBS or other heavy application might wear a pad out. We'd just steal one from a cassette tape and stick it on the arm. The cassette tape pad was square and the originals were round, but it never seemed to make any difference. These days there are no cassettes floating around to cannibalize, so I buy felt pads for furniture from Amazon, trim them with a razor and stick them on a drive I'm refurbishing. Atari, Commodore, Tandy... Many of the 80's 8-bits used this very scheme on their single-sided drives and this solution is good for all of them. I had someone insist to me recently that the felt pads I was buying were acrylic and the originals were Rabbit Hair and that it was crucial that the replacements be made of rabbit hair. In practice, and that is 40 years of practice, any old pad will do just fine. If it looks like the right thing it will serve the purpose. Just pick off the old nub of a pad and stick on your newly cut one and go. Common faults I've been noticing are that disk drives made in the 70's, 80's, and 90's are failing in common ways. I attribute these failures mostly to lack of lubrication. After 30 years they get a bit gummy and the actuators have to work harder to move the head sled, which puts a greater load on the darlington drivers which power the actuators, which causes the drivers to fail. Replacing the drivers will often restore the drive to working order, but they will fail again in short order if the original probelm is not resolved. I simply clean the rails and stepper bands, touch a little wd40 to the rails to free the head sled, cycle the head back and forth a buncha times manually to exercise it and distribute the lubricant, then follow that will a little white lithium grease for a longer-lived lube. Not only will the drive run better and a lot quieter when lubricated, the loads on the actuators and their associated electronics are greatly reduced, making for a like-new drive. The second thing that is happening quite often is electrolytic capacitors are failing, leaking or not. I had a pair of drives the other day which made quite a racket when spinning free even without media installed. Replacing the electrolytics on the spindle motor's board got rid of the noise and made it possible to properly tune the RPM's, which had been just all over the map. best, Jeff From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 15:08:37 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 17:08:37 -0300 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <865eae7e-6e6a-9b95-63ea-dc481cf19374@gmail.com> The big difference is most 8" drives had AC motors that turned the spindle all the time so if a diskette drive was loaded it would turn all the time and if the head(s) where loaded it would wear a groove in the media, hence the head load solenoid.?? Most 5.25 and smaller drives have a DC motor that is only turned on when you are about to read or write the diskette so leaving the heads loaded is less of an issue. Paul. On 2020-10-09 5:02 p.m., Jeffrey S. Worley via cctalk wrote: > I've not worked on 8" floppy drives, but have on tons of 5.25" single- > sided drives. Older single-sided ones (usually 35-track from the 70's) > had load solenoids for the pressure pads, as with a double-sided unit. > > The pad is to provide good contact between the media surface and the > head beneath. I think older media must have ablated more than latter- > day media does, as it is rare to find a single-sided 5.25" drive with a > load solenoid. The pad is always in contact whenever the drive door is > closed. Double-sided drives of course retained the head-load solenoid > for some years, but eventually those were done away with. So, I think > that unless you are using a drive 24/7, a pad in contact with the disk > should not be a serious concern. That the pad IS properly in contact > is important of course, and pads should be inspected to see that there > is enough 'meat' left on them to provide the pressure needed. Aft of > the pad, at the base of the head-sled pressure arm is a notch into > which the end of the spring rides. Close examination of the sled will > probably show some higher and lower notches into which you can move the > end of the spring, to provide more or less pressure as needed, to tune > a particular drive. > > In the old days, someone running a drive on a BBS or other heavy > application might wear a pad out. We'd just steal one from a cassette > tape and stick it on the arm. The cassette tape pad was square and the > originals were round, but it never seemed to make any difference. > These days there are no cassettes floating around to cannibalize, so I > buy felt pads for furniture from Amazon, trim them with a razor and > stick them on a drive I'm refurbishing. Atari, Commodore, Tandy... > Many of the 80's 8-bits used this very scheme on their single-sided > drives and this solution is good for all of them. > > I had someone insist to me recently that the felt pads I was buying > were acrylic and the originals were Rabbit Hair and that it was crucial > that the replacements be made of rabbit hair. In practice, and that is > 40 years of practice, any old pad will do just fine. If it looks like > the right thing it will serve the purpose. Just pick off the old nub > of a pad and stick on your newly cut one and go. > > Common faults I've been noticing are that disk drives made in the 70's, > 80's, and 90's are failing in common ways. I attribute these failures > mostly to lack of lubrication. After 30 years they get a bit gummy and > the actuators have to work harder to move the head sled, which puts a > greater load on the darlington drivers which power the actuators, which > causes the drivers to fail. Replacing the drivers will often restore > the drive to working order, but they will fail again in short order if > the original probelm is not resolved. I simply clean the rails and > stepper bands, touch a little wd40 to the rails to free the head sled, > cycle the head back and forth a buncha times manually to exercise it > and distribute the lubricant, then follow that will a little white > lithium grease for a longer-lived lube. Not only will the drive run > better and a lot quieter when lubricated, the loads on the actuators > and their associated electronics are greatly reduced, making for a > like-new drive. > > The second thing that is happening quite often is electrolytic > capacitors are failing, leaking or not. I had a pair of drives the > other day which made quite a racket when spinning free even without > media installed. Replacing the electrolytics on the spindle motor's > board got rid of the noise and made it possible to properly tune the > RPM's, which had been just all over the map. > > best, > > Jeff From mosst at SDF.ORG Fri Oct 9 15:38:23 2020 From: mosst at SDF.ORG (Thomas Moss) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 20:38:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 02:29:46 -0400 > From: Bob Vines > To: cctech > Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? > I don't have a TU56 & TD8E _yet_, but really hope to get one fairly soon -- > if successful, they will most assuredly require troubleshooting & repairs. > Where did you find the source for TDFRMT? Also, where did you find the > MAINDEC document that matches your version of the TD8E MAINDEC? I ask > because I've had _great_ difficulty finding MAINDEC docs that actually > match whatever MAINDEC images I've tried to use. Bob, The source for TDFRMT, as well as the rest of OS/8 can be found here: https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/file?name=src/os8/ock/CUSPS/TDFRMT.PA https://tangentsoft.com/pidp8i/dir?ci=tip&name=src/os8 Several versions of the TD8E MAINDEC can be found here: http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/software/maindec.php Only one of them has a PDF, and I haven't checked to see if they fully match up with the binaries, but the starting addresses of the tests I'd been checking at least seem to match up with the DHTDAB.DG binary found here: www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/os8_html?act=dir;fn=images/os8/diagpack2.rk05 Regards, -Tom mosst at sdf.org SDF Public Access UNIX System - https://sdf.org From cramcram at gmail.com Fri Oct 9 11:16:11 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 09:16:11 -0700 Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Tom, Ditto. Could you supply links to these doc Thanks, Marc On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 11:33 PM Bob Vines via cctech wrote: > > > > Message: 8 > > Date: Wed, 7 Oct 2020 05:59:40 +0000 (UTC) > > From: Thomas Moss > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Tips on reviving a TU56 + TD8E? > > > ... > > > I've recently bought a TU56 for my PDP-8/e, and am looking for some > > advice on getting it to work. > > > ... > > > ... I found a copy of the source for TDFRMT so I could see what > > exactly was causing the "SETUP?" error. > > > ... > > Tom, > I don't have a TU56 & TD8E _yet_, but really hope to get one fairly soon -- > if successful, they will most assuredly require troubleshooting & repairs. > Where did you find the source for TDFRMT? Also, where did you find the > MAINDEC document that matches your version of the TD8E MAINDEC? I ask > because I've had _great_ difficulty finding MAINDEC docs that actually > match whatever MAINDEC images I've tried to use. > Thanks, > Bob > From macro at linux-mips.org Fri Oct 9 16:29:10 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 22:29:10 +0100 (BST) Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 7 Oct 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of > > machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, > > especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but > > probably not anything more recent. > > > > you could get PCI V.35 cards > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 Umm, PCI has become almost as legacy as ISA, but here's the first link: . that came up with "PCIe HDLC" popped into a web search engine. If you were so inclined, you could probably wire it to a contemporary x86 laptop via one of those Thunderbolt-to-PCIe thingies (for the record: I've had one of my older x86 laptops put on FDDI via a similar arrangement with a PCIe-PCI bridge wired via the docking station, and could do the same right away with my most recent one and its ExpressCard interface). FWIW, Maciej From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Oct 9 19:17:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 9 Oct 2020 20:17:30 -0400 Subject: 8 inch floppy head pad adjustment In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ad67c94-aae3-40e6-7b9a-4fd6c020b1c9@alembic.crystel.com> Thanks Jeff! Yep, one of the odd things about 8 inch floppies is they are always spinning (at least on RX01/02 drives) and thus the disc is always turning in the sleeve, and if the head is engaged it will wear down. What they do is have a head on one side, and on the other is the solenoid with the shoe. Mine was way too low, so the head was basically always pressed into the disc. It's better now, and doesn't seem to be doing damage. Sort of. One thing I am noticing is a lot of these disks came from the old Solarex plant. They have a lot of "data" that is probably test results from the wafer cutting systems and I'm debating keeping it. More to the point most of the disks are RX02 format so I can't read them with this RX02 running in RX01 mode (until I manage to fix a UNibus pdp111 here, that's either the 11/24 or the 11/05. But the 11/05 might only have 24kw of memory so we'll see) Anyway the bigger problem is this stuff was on the plant floor. Where the panels were cut. Which means there is silicon dust *everywhere*. Remember when my RL02 heads crashed? That was because the RL02 drive's filter was *clogged* with dust to the point where the heads couldn't fly and were wedge shaped from wear. Pretty sad. But for the floppies I can see that many of them have concentric rings in the data areas from where the silicon dust got on them and sliced into the data rings. Fortunately the RX02 didn't come from there, but since the silicon is embedded into the jackets it just wrecks the floppies the more they spin. So fire up and get the data fast is probably what I will have to do. We'll see. However I do now have three RX01 disks with no errors, and one with about 20 errors due to a ding in the disk. I've tested them with DX0 to the point where I am happy it's reliable, and have made one a BRUSYS boot up floppy with RSX11M's VMR utility so I can boot from floppy and back up the system on the TK50 drive. Better than blowing a whole tape with nothing but BRUSYS. The other floppy I'll use to see if I can get the PDT11/150 working, I don't know the shape of that things heads either but I do know disk 2 is down. Oh well, never dull... It's getting cooler outside, so I can get back to work on these systems. The VT52 is still working very well with no hum or whistle, the repair of the -12v supply seems to be holding out well. CZ On 10/9/2020 4:02 PM, Jeffrey S. Worley wrote: > I've not worked on 8" floppy drives, but have on tons of 5.25" > single-sided drives. ?Older single-sided ones (usually 35-track from the > 70's) had load solenoids for the pressure pads, as with a double-sided unit. > > The pad is to provide good contact between the media surface and the > head beneath. ?I think older media must have ablated more than > latter-day media does, as it is rare to find a single-sided 5.25" drive > with a load solenoid. ?The pad is always in contact whenever the drive > door is closed. ?Double-sided drives of course retained the head-load > solenoid for some years, but eventually those were done away with. ?So, > I think that unless you are using a drive 24/7, a pad in contact with > the disk should not be a serious concern. ?That the pad IS properly in > contact is important of course, and pads should be inspected to see that > there is enough 'meat' left on them to provide the pressure needed. ?Aft > of the pad, at the base of the head-sled pressure arm is a notch into > which the end of the spring rides. ?Close examination of the sled will > probably show some higher and lower notches into which you can move the > end of the spring, to provide more or less pressure as needed, to tune a > particular drive. > > In the old days, someone running a drive on a BBS or other heavy > application might wear a pad out. ?We'd just steal one from a cassette > tape and stick it on the arm. ?The cassette tape pad was square and the > originals were round, but it never seemed to make any difference. ?These > days there are no cassettes floating around to cannibalize, so I buy > felt pads for furniture from Amazon, trim them with a razor and stick > them on a drive I'm refurbishing. ?Atari, Commodore, Tandy... ?Many of > the 80's 8-bits used this very scheme on their single-sided drives and > this solution is good for all of them. > > I had someone insist to me recently that the felt pads I was buying were > acrylic and the originals were Rabbit Hair and that it was crucial that > the replacements be made of rabbit hair. ?In practice, and that is 40 > years of practice, any old pad will do just fine. ?If it looks like the > right thing it will serve the purpose. ? Just pick off ?the old nub of a > pad and stick on your newly cut one and go. > > Common faults I've been noticing are that disk drives made in the 70's, > 80's, and 90's are failing in common ways. ?I attribute these failures > mostly to lack of lubrication. ?After 30 years they get a bit gummy and > the actuators have to work harder to move the head sled, which puts a > greater load on the darlington drivers which power the actuators, which > causes the drivers to fail. ?Replacing the drivers will often restore > the drive to working order, but they will fail again in short order if > the original probelm is not resolved. ?I simply clean the rails and > stepper bands, touch a little wd40 to the rails to free the head sled, > cycle the head back and forth a buncha times manually to exercise it and > distribute the lubricant, then follow that will a little white lithium > grease for a longer-lived lube. ?Not only will the drive run better and > a lot quieter when lubricated, the loads on the actuators and their > associated electronics are greatly reduced, making for a like-new drive. > > The second thing that is happening quite often is electrolytic > capacitors are failing, leaking or not. ?I had a pair of drives the > other day which made quite a racket when spinning free even without > media installed. ?Replacing the electrolytics on the spindle motor's > board got rid of the noise and made it possible to properly tune the > RPM's, which had been just all over the map. > > best, > > Jeff From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 10 05:18:31 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 03:18:31 -0700 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <01RQJHC052DS8ZDV7U@beyondthepale.ie> <3e639775-72ab-9aee-bdfe-5cf976d09cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56033df0-dbbe-d698-ac2d-0fce2a943be6@bitsavers.org> On 10/7/20 2:03 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 4:49 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> On 10/7/20 1:39 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Synchronous serial lines are not typically a feature in the sort of >>> machines people are likely to be running something like Simh on, >>> especially laptops. I'm sure there were Sync serial cards for ISA but >>> probably not anything more recent. >> >> you could get PCI V.35 cards >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Barr-Systems-291456-Sync-Max-PCI-Rev-1-Card/264317672165 > > I was not aware of this unit. Thanks for the pointer. http://www.synclink.com/ for USB.. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat Oct 10 06:11:46 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 13:11:46 +0200 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> Message-ID: <51980dabb0d4eda868084f9ee4635e2f85de3937.camel@agj.net> ons 2020-10-07 klockan 14:08 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > > Not flags, that's an HDLC concept. Bisync uses sync characters (as > DDCMP does) but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by > a frame terminator, and for transparency if that occurs inside the > data it has to be escaped. Bit stuffing ? ie if the payload contains a sequence which is reserved add a an escape for example an A after three consecutive spaces. ON the receiving end remove the A, if it came after three spaces. Four consecutive spaces in the wire stream, that is a frame marker... > > Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but > it's occasionally found elsewhere. One of my nightmare memories is > debugging the communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11 > (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 display advertising graphics editing > workstation. That runs Bisync, half duplex, multipoint, with modem > control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices at the PDP-11 > end. Yikes. At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it > tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to > 8 am. > > I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond > what I just mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to > do with IBM products. > > paul > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Oct 10 07:35:16 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 14:35:16 +0200 Subject: Remote job submission from PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <51980dabb0d4eda868084f9ee4635e2f85de3937.camel@agj.net> References: <0592550f-4e15-fb6a-485b-0a670fcbbcde@charter.net> <51980dabb0d4eda868084f9ee4635e2f85de3937.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: Den l?r 10 okt. 2020 kl 13:23 skrev Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > ons 2020-10-07 klockan 14:08 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk: > > > > Not flags, that's an HDLC concept. Bisync uses sync characters (as > > DDCMP does) but instead of doing framing by byte counts it does it by > > a frame terminator, and for transparency if that occurs inside the > > data it has to be escaped. > > Bit stuffing ? ie if the payload contains a sequence which is reserved > add a an escape for example an A after three consecutive spaces. > Bitstuffing is used in HDLC and SDLC and is where you insert a 0 after five consecutive ones. That is to differentiate it from the flag which has a zero followed by six ones and then yet another zero. > > ON the receiving end remove the A, if it came after three spaces. > > Four consecutive spaces in the wire stream, that is a frame marker... > BSC has the concept of escape character. They use the DLE which is 0x10 in EBCDIC. BSC can operate in transparent and non-transparent mode. Transparent mode text is initiated with DLE STX while non-transparent text is just STX. > > > > > Bisync is usually associated with older IBM protocols like 2780, but > > it's occasionally found elsewhere. BSC was widely used to connect various IBM terminals like 2260 and 3270. BSC has a polling concept with the ENQ character which is used to poll terminals on a shared line for data to send. > One of my nightmare memories is > > debugging the communication between a PDP-11/70 running Typeset-11 > > (on IAS) and a Harris 2200 display advertising graphics editing > > workstation. That runs Bisync, half duplex, multipoint, with modem > > control, on an async comm link -- DL11-E devices at the PDP-11 > > end. Yikes. At our customer site in downtown Philadelphia, it > > tended to lock up, but only during the "lobster shift" -- midnight to > > 8 am. > > > > I don't really know anything about that particular protocol beyond > > what I just mentioned, but I'm fairly sure it didn't have anything to > > do with IBM products. > > > > paul > > > > > /Mattis From rtomek at ceti.pl Sat Oct 10 11:49:10 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Sat, 10 Oct 2020 18:49:10 +0200 Subject: Old mainframes in Finland In-Reply-To: <1B41A30C-7569-4F45-BD64-8B69DE81512D@comcast.net> References: <86ebad34-b96b-2a09-7bdc-825a3da0f7dd@elecplus.com> <389d5ed8d4863c9c541e3f48d7c5b4252072bdde.camel@sbcglobal.net> <1B41A30C-7569-4F45-BD64-8B69DE81512D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20201010164909.GA4159@tau1.ceti.pl> On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 01:10:55PM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Oct 8, 2020, at 12:08 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > > > If you try to access the paper describing the 2017 - 2018 restoration work, > > you soon crash into an academic publication paywall, but if you're > > persistent enough, as my frugal, self-funded computing and robotics > > students and I are, you will eventually find this link to the PDF of the > > paper at the authors' institution, Akademia G?rniczo-Hutnicza University of > > Science and Technology in Krak?w, Poland: > > > > http://senster.agh.edu.pl/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/ms_version_Senster_Reactivation_of_a_Cybernetic_Sculpture_Leonardo.pdf > > > > Enjoy! > > Jim KJ7JHE > > Wonderful, thanks. Yay! This is my alma mater. Over time, I have lost any connections I could have there but I am glad each time I see the new kids (and cadre) mentioned (especially that mentions are positive :-) ). > I noticed the article mentions that the original source code exists > but was not used. The reasons don't seem all that compelling; it > would seem possible to run the original in an emulator. Getting the > timing accurate is something SIMH can do pretty well. As I had a look at the diary page of Senster Project [ http://senster.agh.edu.pl/dzienniki/ ], there is a note from 2018-08-09, where inscription on the picture says a number of actuators were missing or defunct. So I guess they went with all new hydraulics (or other kind of moving parts - I am yet to see if there is more details on this) and thus pairing them with simulation of old computer might have not make too much sense. Aha, I spotted "stepper motor" on the same drawing. So, at least some actuators were new. As a side note, Polish wikipedia [1] gives some more depth to the biography of Edward Ihnatowicz, the author of original sculpture. Among other things, at the age of twelve he started going for a year to gymnasium for cadets (a military school), in a city of Lwow (nowadays: Lviv, Ukraine) - a school was said to put a lot of attention to the discipline and high level of teaching [2]. His father being an officer in Polish Army, in 1939 became POW in Soviet Union, later murdered there. Mother and son fleed to Romania, later transferred to Algeria. In 1943, transferred to Great Britain. There, his mother joined Polish Armed Forces and Edward was sent to college. After the war, he went on to learn drawing, married, tried himself as a business owner, movie/tv producer, and then became a cybernetic artist and research assistant at University College London. While he was there, he made two of his three mentioned works, The Senster and The Bandit. The Senster had been dismantled in 1973 and was considered to be lost for a number of years. The Bandit was interesting too, because it tried to guess a gender and temperament from behaviour of interacting human, and was said to be correct quite often. Very cybernetic! [1] https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Ihnatowicz [2] As a side to a side note, Polish philosopher and writer specialising in cybernetics-related subjects (Stanislaw Lem), also resided in Lwow during first twenty-four years of his life. Could it be, that a place was somewhat inspiring to certain kind of developments? Lwow was also a site for one of three Polish schools of mathemathics (Lwowian, Warsovian and Cracovian being the names of them). Stanislaw Ulam, a member of it, emigrated to USA and worked in Los Alamos (nukes, thermo-nukes, Monte Carlo method, numerical computations, project Orion etc). Together with John von Neumann he was involved in formulating a concept of cellular authomata: QUOTE: Stanislaw Ulam, while working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory in the 1940s, studied the growth of crystals, using a simple lattice network as his model.[8] At the same time, John von Neumann, Ulam's colleague at Los Alamos, was working on the problem of self-replicating systems.[9] Von Neumann's initial design was founded upon the notion of one robot building another robot. This design is known as the kinematic model.[10][11] As he developed this design, von Neumann came to realize the great difficulty of building a self-replicating robot, and of the great cost in providing the robot with a "sea of parts" from which to build its replicant. Neumann wrote a paper entitled "The general and logical theory of automata" for the Hixon Symposium in 1948.[9] Ulam was the one who suggested using a discrete system for creating a reductionist model of self-replication.[12][13] Nils Aall Barricelli performed many of the earliest explorations of these models of artificial life. UNQUOTE. source: [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cellular_automaton ] -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Oct 11 16:37:56 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 17:37:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card Message-ID: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I'm trying to ID this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/QBUSMystMem.jpg mystery QBUS memory card. I think it's a 64KB card, so not very important, but it's bugging me. The company logo (lower left corner) looks familiar, but I'm not good with off-brand logos; I'm hoping someone will recognize it. (It we can locate a manual for it, so much the better; I'm not up to playing with it to work out what the switches do!) Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 17:09:08 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:09:08 +0100 Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card In-Reply-To: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <124301d6a01b$242194b0$6c64be10$@gmail.com> Noel, GOOGLE seems to have this one. It comes up with a Keyways page http://www2.keyways.com/inv/38/15260928.html which lists it as a "Monolithic" board which matches ... ... sorry no manual Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via > cctalk > Sent: 11 October 2020 22:38 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card > > Hi, I'm trying to ID this: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/QBUSMystMem.jpg > > mystery QBUS memory card. I think it's a 64KB card, so not very important, > but it's bugging me. The company logo (lower left corner) looks familiar, but > I'm not good with off-brand logos; I'm hoping someone will recognize it. (It > we can locate a manual for it, so much the better; I'm not up to playing with it > to work out what the switches do!) > > Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 11 18:54:53 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 16:54:53 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! Message-ID: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 11 19:04:02 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:04:02 -0400 Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card In-Reply-To: <124301d6a01b$242194b0$6c64be10$@gmail.com> References: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <124301d6a01b$242194b0$6c64be10$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have boards like that. Dataram comes to mind. My guess is it's parity memory. You can probably figure out the switches for the register and memory start region pretty quickly. C On 10/11/2020 6:09 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > Noel, > GOOGLE seems to have this one. It comes up with a Keyways page > > http://www2.keyways.com/inv/38/15260928.html > > which lists it as a "Monolithic" board which matches ... > ... sorry no manual > > Dave > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via >> cctalk >> Sent: 11 October 2020 22:38 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu >> Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card >> >> Hi, I'm trying to ID this: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/QBUSMystMem.jpg >> >> mystery QBUS memory card. I think it's a 64KB card, so not very important, >> but it's bugging me. The company logo (lower left corner) looks familiar, > but >> I'm not good with off-brand logos; I'm hoping someone will recognize it. > (It >> we can locate a manual for it, so much the better; I'm not up to playing > with it >> to work out what the switches do!) >> >> Noel > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 11 19:11:26 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 Message-ID: I'm back to working on the PDT11/150 again, the bottom floppy is weird: It doesn't read rx01 disks, period. Top one is fine. So I tried swapping all of the connectors on the control board so the top one was PD1: and the bottom was PD0: Sure enough the top drive works fine as PD1: and bottom is still dead so it's a drive issue. Pull the drive, put in a spare, button it up, and sure enough it still doesn't work. Any ideas? Also I recall my MiniMinc/150 (which is in parts in my shed) had EIS and FIS, but this one only reports FIS. Did DEC make pdp11/03 expansion chips that only had FIS? C From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Oct 11 19:17:27 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 19:17:27 -0500 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> Chris, I would like to get a clarification on this. Does either drive work fine in the PD0 position or does the drive that was not working in the PD1 position not work in the PD0 position? You said that the spare drive that you put in the PD1 position also does not work. I would try it in the PD0 position and see if it works or not. Would you please let me know on these items? GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/11/2020 7:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > I'm back to working on the PDT11/150 again, the bottom floppy is > weird: It doesn't read rx01 disks, period. Top one is fine. So I tried > swapping all of the connectors on the control board so the top one was > PD1: and the bottom was PD0: Sure enough the top drive works fine as > PD1: and bottom is still dead so it's a drive issue. > > Pull the drive, put in a spare, button it up, and sure enough it still > doesn't work. Any ideas? > > Also I recall my MiniMinc/150 (which is in parts in my shed) had EIS > and FIS, but this one only reports FIS. Did DEC make pdp11/03 > expansion chips that only had FIS? > > C > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 11 19:52:43 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 17:52:43 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff > Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection.? I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long shot for me. That all is in sad shape.?? But he has all of an 11/70 including the backplane, and fires can't do that much to steel but mess up the heat treatment state. thanks Jim From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 11 20:14:05 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:14:05 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> Message-ID: Well, by "location" I mean there are plugs on the controller board for PD0 (typically called the "top" drive) and PD1 (typically the "bottom" drive). My test swapped the cables so the top drive was using the PD1: logic on the board and the "bottom" was using the PD0 logic. In that situation the PD1: channel with the top drive worked so the problem is not in the logic board. However I may have figured out a clue: When I try to boot the pdt11 on the good drive (now PD0: again) with the door open the drive makes a quick BRAAP noise in the head positioning motor and it fails. It does not drop the head pad servo. When I close the door the drive clicks in the servo and boots away. However on the bottom drive it always does the BRAAP regardless if the door is open or closed. So I looked at the spare 8 inch drive: There is no "disk present" switch or anything but there *IS* the sector lamp and CDS cell. So the big question: Maybe the RX01/PD logic looks for the sector pulse signal to determine if a disk is in the drive? That would explain how the controller "knows" there is no disk. And a bigger question: Is that an LED or a light bulb that lights up the sector pulse CDS cell (I can see the detector is a CDS, I recognize those from my 150-in-one Tandy days). If so maybe it burns out? C On 10/11/2020 8:17 PM, Richard Pope wrote: > Chris, > ??? I would like to get a clarification on this. Does either drive work > fine in the PD0 position or does the drive that was not working in the > PD1 position not work in the PD0 position? You said that the spare drive > that you put in the PD1 position also does not work. I would try it in > the PD0 position and see if it works or not. Would you please let me > know on these items? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 10/11/2020 7:11 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> I'm back to working on the PDT11/150 again, the bottom floppy is >> weird: It doesn't read rx01 disks, period. Top one is fine. So I tried >> swapping all of the connectors on the control board so the top one was >> PD1: and the bottom was PD0: Sure enough the top drive works fine as >> PD1: and bottom is still dead so it's a drive issue. >> >> Pull the drive, put in a spare, button it up, and sure enough it still >> doesn't work. Any ideas? >> >> Also I recall my MiniMinc/150 (which is in parts in my shed) had EIS >> and FIS, but this one only reports FIS. Did DEC make pdp11/03 >> expansion chips that only had FIS? >> >> C >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:22:02 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 01:22:02 +0000 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org>, <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. The front panel is really sad. I wonder where Dale found them? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 5:52 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: FIRE SALE! On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff > Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection. I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long shot for me. That all is in sad shape. But he has all of an 11/70 including the backplane, and fires can't do that much to steel but mess up the heat treatment state. thanks Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 20:34:26 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 21:34:26 -0400 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. -- Will From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 11 20:49:18 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 18:49:18 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. > You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still > operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. > > -- > Will > I agree.? Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic or scorch damage.? A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging. Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside.? Unless the fire was? flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time of the equipment. Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze. Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of such, and these probably are okay for that.? Maybe some of the other bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front.? It would be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every board involved to certify they work. Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such, unless i had nothing to lose. thanks Jim From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Oct 11 21:05:58 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 02:05:58 +0000 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> , <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot enough to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous temperatures. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM To: William Donzelli via cctalk Subject: Re: FIRE SALE! On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. > You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still > operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. > > -- > Will > I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging. Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time of the equipment. Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze. Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every board involved to certify they work. Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such, unless i had nothing to lose. thanks Jim From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 21:21:27 2020 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 22:21:27 -0400 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> Message-ID: How long do you think those poor machines cooked? I bet far, far longer than the soldering temperature spec. likes. -- Will On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:06 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot enough to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous temperatures. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM > To: William Donzelli via cctalk > Subject: Re: FIRE SALE! > > > > On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > >> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. > > You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still > > operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. > > > > -- > > Will > > > I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic > or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging. > > Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire > was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount > of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time > of the equipment. > > Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either > fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze. > > Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of > such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other > bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would > be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every > board involved to certify they work. > > Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and > I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such, > unless i had nothing to lose. > > thanks > Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Oct 11 22:04:29 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:04:29 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <229e9ee0-f213-8c35-a0f9-26aeea582809@bitsavers.org> On 10/11/20 7:21 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > How long do you think those poor machines cooked? long enough to melt the pot metal frame on the 11/45 control panel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 11 22:13:26 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 20:13:26 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> I agree.? Most devices are expected to be heated briefly to soldering temperatures, not heat soaked at that. Temperature in this case is much different than heat.? The designers of the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is exposed to. On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have been assembled then.? Even with current radiant oven techniques, the parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure.? They do that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open circuit failures happening. If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes.? Unless there's physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time before they attack. I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't happen quickly.? Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby structures.? You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in most cases.? Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires, and take care of nearby property. thanks jim On 10/11/2020 7:21 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > How long do you think those poor machines cooked? I bet far, far > longer than the soldering temperature spec. likes. > > -- > Will > > On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 10:06 PM dwight via cctalk > wrote: >> Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear that it was only hot enough to melt plastics. That isn't even hot enough to damage boards. It is wasn't powered at the same time, it is unlikely to have been harmed. I've seen cases where there were flames in the board area and parts were not damaged. These were mostly wrapped in their cases. Melted plastics most likely protected the boards from dangerous temperatures. >> Dwight >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk >> Sent: Sunday, October 11, 2020 6:49 PM >> To: William Donzelli via cctalk >> Subject: Re: FIRE SALE! >> >> >> >> On 10/11/2020 6:34 PM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >>>> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone wanting backup cards. >>> You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still >>> operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. >>> >>> -- >>> Will >>> >> I agree. Especially the ones heated high enough for the melted plastic >> or scorch damage. A radiative and convective heat soak is pretty damaging. >> >> Consider the flow temperature of the materials inside. Unless the fire >> was flash fire, the entire thing would have been heated for some amount >> of time (15 minutes minimum usually, to 45 minutes) due to response time >> of the equipment. >> >> Not evident in the photos would be possible contamination from either >> fire suppressant materials or water to extinguish the blaze. >> >> Like I said, Ethan is looking for a cabinet for an 11/70 stripped out of >> such, and these probably are okay for that. Maybe some of the other >> bits after inspectiong, but I'd not trust the boards up front. It would >> be a project I'd want a solid shop of parts to do testing for every >> board involved to certify they work. >> >> Most people I know have one system in their basement, lab or garage, and >> I'd personally not want to put boards from a source like this into such, >> unless i had nothing to lose. >> >> thanks >> Jim From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 11 22:33:47 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 11 Oct 2020 23:33:47 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11. Dec put 5 volts on an LED????? In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> Message-ID: <176caa37-18cf-221a-0645-fea99722a4a2@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, this is weirder: I put the "bad" floppy drive on the bench and started to take a look at it. First I checked the LED (yes, it's an LED). With a bench voltage of 1.5 volts and a 100ma draw it lit up nicely in the IR (detected by phone camera, so nice they can see the light) and the photo transistor also seemed to work fine (at the sector hole resistance went from infinite down to about 500 ohms). That's good, so what is wrong? I noticed I could crank the LED higher current-wise to 150 ma and the voltage was still <2 volts. Interesting. Then I hooked a break-out harness to the pdt11 to see what kind of voltage it was putting out to the LED. It's putting out +5v whenever the unit is on. Maybe it's current limited? To check I hooked up the drive's plug to the breakout to see what the LED was seeing. +5v. And even weirder, the LED was not lit. What the heck is going on here? So I put the LED on the bench for a bit of a destructive test. Disconnected the PDT11 from the breakout cable, hooked up the power supply, turned up the voltage and the LED came on, then went *off* at around 3v. At 5v it was dead off, no IR light as measured by the camera. Turn the voltage down, and it comes on again. Up and it goes off. And unfortunately at 9v it died (CRAP!) as I turned up the current limit Yes, I forgot to set the voltage limit on the power supply, my bad, I am boo boo the fool... But this is weird: It looks like DEC put an LED in there with no current limiting, and a straight +5 volts. And the LED is always on at this high voltage? With no current limiting resistor? This does not make sense, but the volt meter don't lie. I'm going to check the working drive to see if it is limiting the voltage somehow. I'd say there was a resistor in the LED assembly limiting the current, but if that's true my cranking the voltage to 9v should not have blown it up, and it should not turn on at low voltages then off at 5v. Maybe the solution is to insert a resistor in series with the second drive at around r=e/i or r=5/.1 (100ma) or 50 ohms. Does this make any sense? C From doug at doughq.com Sun Oct 11 22:50:17 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:50:17 +1100 Subject: Firing up the pdt11. Dec put 5 volts on an LED????? In-Reply-To: <176caa37-18cf-221a-0645-fea99722a4a2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <176caa37-18cf-221a-0645-fea99722a4a2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Could it have been a 5V LED with integral current limit? That would explain the odd behaviour. Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:33, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, this is weirder: I put the "bad" floppy drive on the bench and > started to take a look at it. First I checked the LED (yes, it's an > LED). With a bench voltage of 1.5 volts and a 100ma draw it lit up > nicely in the IR (detected by phone camera, so nice they can see the > light) and the photo transistor also seemed to work fine (at the sector > hole resistance went from infinite down to about 500 ohms). That's good, > so what is wrong? > > I noticed I could crank the LED higher current-wise to 150 ma and the > voltage was still <2 volts. Interesting. Then I hooked a break-out > harness to the pdt11 to see what kind of voltage it was putting out to > the LED. > > It's putting out +5v whenever the unit is on. Maybe it's current > limited? To check I hooked up the drive's plug to the breakout to see > what the LED was seeing. > > +5v. And even weirder, the LED was not lit. > > What the heck is going on here? > > So I put the LED on the bench for a bit of a destructive test. > Disconnected the PDT11 from the breakout cable, hooked up the power > supply, turned up the voltage and the LED came on, then went *off* at > around 3v. At 5v it was dead off, no IR light as measured by the camera. > Turn the voltage down, and it comes on again. Up and it goes off. > > And unfortunately at 9v it died (CRAP!) as I turned up the current limit > Yes, I forgot to set the voltage limit on the power supply, my bad, I am > boo boo the fool... > > But this is weird: It looks like DEC put an LED in there with no current > limiting, and a straight +5 volts. And the LED is always on at this high > voltage? With no current limiting resistor? This does not make sense, > but the volt meter don't lie. I'm going to check the working drive to > see if it is limiting the voltage somehow. I'd say there was a resistor > in the LED assembly limiting the current, but if that's true my cranking > the voltage to 9v should not have blown it up, and it should not turn on > at low voltages then off at 5v. > > Maybe the solution is to insert a resistor in series with the second > drive at around r=e/i or r=5/.1 (100ma) or 50 ohms. > > Does this make any sense? > > C > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 11 23:18:33 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:18:33 -0400 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:52 PM jim stephens wrote: > On 10/11/2020 4:54 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff > > > Ethan Dicks could use the metal and cabinets for his 11/70 collection. > I wish I could go get it and transport it, but that's a bit of a long > shot for me. I've been casually looking for a BA11-F since, as Jim mentioned, I have the backplane, cards, front panel, bezel, and PSU for an 11/70. I am missing only the actual box and the FP plexi (I have an idea for an easy laser-etched clear-plexi) But I'm probably not able to coordinate heavy transport from CA. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 11 23:20:53 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 00:20:53 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11. Dec put 5 volts on an LED????? In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <176caa37-18cf-221a-0645-fea99722a4a2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0edc70ec-32c0-e201-0ec0-9f96ac056c80@alembic.crystel.com> Maybe. The part number is partially missing, the drive itself has a part number of 70-13077-02, DEC badged. That maps to a print set of EK-13077-IP which doesn't seem to be anywhere online. Drat. Looking at Wikipedia these seem to be in TO-18 metal cases. Maybe they are Gallium Arsenide LEDs? However if it was current limited then running it up to 9v should not have killed it. Is it possible one can drive an LED hard enough to get it not to light after awhile at 5v levels but still have it light at lower voltage levels? This should be simple to test with the other non-working drive: Put a 47 ohm resistor in series with the LED and see if it works. If so great, I'll ECO the other drives. If not then I can replace this with a standard IR LED, put in a damn resistor, and get it online again. Still, it means the track zero LED can't be far behind assuming they did the same trick. Hm. Need to do more research. CZ On 10/11/2020 11:50 PM, Doug Jackson wrote: > Could it have been a 5V LED with integral current limit? > > That would explain the odd behaviour. > > Kindest regards, > > Doug Jackson > > em: doug at doughq.com > ph: 0414 986878 > > Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com > > Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net > > ----------------------------------------------------------- > > Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted > with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely > for your own use. > > Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have > been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. > > Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the > imminent Zombie?Apocalypse then the sender bears no?personal, legal, or > moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its?usage unless the > result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes?in > which case the sender takes full credit?without any theoretical or > actual?legal liability. :-) > > Be nice to your parents. > > Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a > radio?station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you > happy. > > ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would > literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G > > > > > > On Mon, 12 Oct 2020 at 14:33, Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > Ok, this is weirder: I put the "bad" floppy drive on the bench and > started to take a look at it. First I checked the LED (yes, it's an > LED). With a bench voltage of 1.5 volts and a 100ma draw it lit up > nicely in the IR (detected by phone camera, so nice they can see the > light) and the photo transistor also seemed to work fine (at the sector > hole resistance went from infinite down to about 500 ohms). That's > good, > so what is wrong? > > I noticed I could crank the LED higher current-wise to 150 ma and the > voltage was still <2 volts. Interesting. Then I hooked a break-out > harness to the pdt11 to see what kind of voltage it was putting out to > the LED. > > It's putting out +5v whenever the unit is on. Maybe it's current > limited? To check I hooked up the drive's plug to the breakout to see > what the LED was seeing. > > +5v. And even weirder, the LED was not lit. > > What the heck is going on here? > > So I put the LED on the bench for a bit of a destructive test. > Disconnected the PDT11 from the breakout cable, hooked up the power > supply, turned up the voltage and the LED came on, then went *off* at > around 3v. At 5v it was dead off, no IR light as measured by the > camera. > Turn the voltage down, and it comes on again. Up and it goes off. > > And unfortunately at 9v it died (CRAP!) as I turned up the current > limit > Yes, I forgot to set the voltage limit on the power supply, my bad, > I am > boo boo the fool... > > But this is weird: It looks like DEC put an LED in there with no > current > limiting, and a straight +5 volts. And the LED is always on at this > high > voltage? With no current limiting resistor? This does not make sense, > but the volt meter don't lie. I'm going to check the working drive to > see if it is limiting the voltage somehow. I'd say there was a resistor > in the LED assembly limiting the current, but if that's true my > cranking > the voltage to 9v should not have blown it up, and it should not > turn on > at low voltages then off at 5v. > > Maybe the solution is to insert a resistor in series with the second > drive at around r=e/i or r=5/.1 (100ma) or 50 ohms. > > Does this make any sense? > > C > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 04:30:27 2020 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 09:30:27 +0000 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net>, Message-ID: See below. Van: Chris Zach via cctalk Verzonden: maandag 12 oktober 2020 03:14 Aan: Richard Pope; On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Firing up the pdt11 Well, by "location" I mean there are plugs on the controller board for PD0 (typically called the "top" drive) and PD1 (typically the "bottom" drive). My test swapped the cables so the top drive was using the PD1: logic on the board and the "bottom" was using the PD0 logic. In that situation the PD1: channel with the top drive worked so the problem is not in the logic board. Chris, When you swap the cables (and keep the drives in place), do you mean that you swapped the data connection *and* the power supply cable(s)? Henk From rice43 at btinternet.com Mon Oct 12 04:47:06 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (rice43) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:47:06 +0100 (BST) Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7cdcc965.1ebf7.1751c34d78a.Webtop.101@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Al Kossow via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, 12 Oct, 2020 At 00:54 Subject: FIRE SALE! http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?77118-Fire-sale-PDP-11-stuff Seems my account isn't activated (still), could these pics be posted somewhere there isn't a login-wall? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 12 06:59:17 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 07:59:17 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> Message-ID: <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> > When you swap the cables (and keep the drives in place), do you mean > that you swapped the data connection **and** the power supply cable(s)? There are six wire bundles and connectors that hook an RX01 floppy drive sub-module to the RX01 read/write controller board (or the PDT11 controller board) One is for the solenoid that lowers the pad onto the disk to allow reads/writes. One is for the sensor to detect track 1 (LED and detector) One is for the sensor to detect sector pulse One is for the servo motor that moves the head in and out One is for the read/write head One is for the 110v power to the drive motor itself that spins the belt and the disk via the center spindle. I did not move the 110v power wire because that is from a common harness between the drives and it's pretty obvious the disk is spinning. :-) The other five were switched between controller channel 0 and 1 (PD0: and PD1:) At this point I think I'm onto the sector pulse LED not working due to 5v being applied to it. Will be working on that more this morning with a better/more precise power supply. CZ From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 09:46:30 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:46:30 +0100 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: > One is for the solenoid that lowers the pad onto the disk to allow > reads/writes. > > One is for the sensor to detect track 1 (LED and detector) > > One is for the sensor to detect sector pulse > > One is for the servo motor that moves the head in and out > > One is for the read/write head > > One is for the 110v power to the drive motor itself that spins the belt > and the disk via the center spindle. > > I did not move the 110v power wire because that is from a common harness > between the drives and it's pretty obvious the disk is spinning. :-) The > other five were switched between controller channel 0 and 1 (PD0: and PD1:) > > At this point I think I'm onto the sector pulse LED not working due to > 5v being applied to it. Will be working on that more this morning with a > better/more precise power supply. Jumping in at this point... In a 'real' RX01, each sensor LED (track 0 and index) has the cathode grounded and the anode connected to +5V via a 68ohm series resistor. If you measure the voltage across the pins with the LED disconnected (or if the LED is open-circuit) with any reasonable meter, it'll read 5V. The meter will not draw enough current for the resistor to drop a noticeable voltage. Of course there is no reason why the resistor couldn't be between the cathode and ground (with the anode connected to +5V). It's a simple series circuit, the current is the same everywhere. The thing that puzzles me is why you read 5V across an LED that seems to work on the bench. I wonder if a connection is open somewhere. -tony From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 12 10:04:23 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 11:04:23 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> > In a 'real' RX01, each sensor LED (track 0 and index) has the cathode > grounded and the anode connected to +5V via a 68ohm series resistor. > If you measure the voltage across the pins with the LED disconnected > (or if the LED is open-circuit) with any reasonable meter, it'll read > 5V. The meter will not draw enough current for the resistor to drop a > noticeable voltage. Ok, that makes sense. Is the resistor on the board or on the drive wire harness somewhere? I'll jumper the disk 0 sensor into my test board here (actually just the extender board from another PDT11) and see what the voltage looks like, then compare it to the same spot on the second drive. > The thing that puzzles me is why you read 5V across an LED that seems > to work on the bench. I wonder if a connection is open somewhere. Not many places for the connection to be open: The LED most certainly did work and did provide IR light on the bench and in-circuit. Weird. C From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 10:11:47 2020 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:11:47 +0100 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 4:04 PM Chris Zach wrote: > > > In a 'real' RX01, each sensor LED (track 0 and index) has the cathode > > grounded and the anode connected to +5V via a 68ohm series resistor. > > If you measure the voltage across the pins with the LED disconnected > > (or if the LED is open-circuit) with any reasonable meter, it'll read > > 5V. The meter will not draw enough current for the resistor to drop a > > noticeable voltage. > > Ok, that makes sense. Is the resistor on the board or on the drive wire > harness somewhere? I'm pretty sure it's on the PCB. > > I'll jumper the disk 0 sensor into my test board here (actually just the > extender board from another PDT11) and see what the voltage looks like, > then compare it to the same spot on the second drive. I'd look at the voltage on each pin of the LED in the 3 other sensors (index and track 0 for both drives) -tony From sales at elecplus.com Mon Oct 12 10:14:00 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 10:14:00 -0500 Subject: Tutor needed for college student Message-ID: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> If anyone has spare time, and is familiar with discrete mathematics, I have a friend who is a young college kid and desperately needs a tutor. His prof just says to read the book, and take online quizzes. He is failing. If you can help, please email me. He is in Delaware. -- Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 direct From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 12 10:58:54 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 11:58:54 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> Curiouser and curiouser.... On a lark I got a 47 ohm (actual reading 50.1 ohms) resistor from the box, put it on the anode supply line of the sector pulse LED on the drive that is in the PDT11 (not the one with the blown LED) and hooked it up to the power supply. With the resistor in I fired up the supply, set the voltage to 3v, and checked the current. Now the LED only draws about 30ma measured at the supply instead of over 120ma without the resistor. So, different. Then I put this assembly into the actual PDT11 circuit: Now when I check voltage at the resistor point I see 1.9v across the diode instead of 5v. And when I put a disk in the PDT11 does drop the solenoid down and tries to "read" the disk (but fails, but it is 8 slow failures, and not 8 fast ones). So I think the LED is now "lit". Then I looked closely at the wires on the actual floppy drive to board interface. I see on the *other* plug (the one that runs the track zero detection) that there *is* a small resistor in line on the harness itself. Haven't checked the value but I'm guessing it's 68 ohms or so. But there is no similar resistor on the line to the sector pulse LED. I just checked the broken drive, same deal. Maybe they "forgot" the resistor on the sector pulse LED? They didn't put it on the board or I wouldn't see +5 with the LED lit. More interestingly maybe the actual disk assembly for a PDT11 is *deliberately different* from an RX01 so you would have to order the "right" specific part. I don't know; I haven't taken apart my RX02 to see if that resistor is in line on the disk drive itself for either of these. It could also have been an oversight, I'll check the top disk to see if the resistor is visible. Maybe the LED works at full +5v brightness for awhile, then opens at +5 but is still closed at lower voltages and lights. This brings up another issue: As these are soft-sectored, does the amount of light the LED produces matter? Maybe my LED+resistor is bright enough to trigger sector pulses, but they are now not where the data is anymore? How critical is sector pulse alignment for an 8 inch floppy drive. This is progress, and this is interesting. I wonder how deep this rabbit hole goes... CZ On 10/12/2020 11:11 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 4:04 PM Chris Zach wrote: >> >>> In a 'real' RX01, each sensor LED (track 0 and index) has the cathode >>> grounded and the anode connected to +5V via a 68ohm series resistor. >>> If you measure the voltage across the pins with the LED disconnected >>> (or if the LED is open-circuit) with any reasonable meter, it'll read >>> 5V. The meter will not draw enough current for the resistor to drop a >>> noticeable voltage. >> >> Ok, that makes sense. Is the resistor on the board or on the drive wire >> harness somewhere? > > I'm pretty sure it's on the PCB. > >> >> I'll jumper the disk 0 sensor into my test board here (actually just the >> extender board from another PDT11) and see what the voltage looks like, >> then compare it to the same spot on the second drive. > > I'd look at the voltage on each pin of the LED in the 3 other sensors > (index and track 0 for both drives) > > -tony > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 11:24:18 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 11:24:18 -0500 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: have you looked into your local hackerspaces at all? https://hackerspaces.org/ list of them all over the world. > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 12:28:50 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 13:28:50 -0400 Subject: Mystery QBUS memory card In-Reply-To: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201011213756.7AFC518C0C1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 5:38 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, I'm trying to ID this: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/QBUSMystMem.jpg > > mystery QBUS memory card. I think it's a 64KB card It is. 4 banks of 4116 16Kx1 DRAMs. I don't recognize the logo, but I _might_ have one of those in a Dataram Qbus box. I know that box has 3rd party memory but I don't remember what brand. Even if I do have one, I've never had a manual for it. -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 15:29:58 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 20:29:58 +0000 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com>, Message-ID: I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into theoretical mathematics. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Adrian Stoness via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 9:24 AM To: Cindy Croxton ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Tutor needed for college student have you looked into your local hackerspaces at all? https://hackerspaces.org/ list of them all over the world. > From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Oct 12 15:41:01 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:41:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com>, Message-ID: <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> > On 10/12/2020 3:29 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into theoretical mathematics. > Dwight > Hacker Spaces are filled with lots of different people. Not all are engineers. It might even be safe to say they are in the minority. Will From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 15:54:08 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:54:08 -0400 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/20 4:29 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into theoretical mathematics. Seriously? Every CS and CIS student at the University where I worked for 25 years had to take Discrete Math. I am sure most other engineering disciplines required it, too but I would have to look it up to be sure. bill From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 12 16:14:49 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:14:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com>, <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: If the textbook isn't working for him, . . . 1) Look at OTHER textbooks on the subject. There is even a Schaum's "made easy , "Outline Of Discrete Math" by Lipschutz. The title promises more than it can deliver, but it might help get through some of the more troublesome sections. 2) Seek out other students who had taken that specific course, from that specific prof. We used to have a "Computer Math" course. Some of the instructors used a Discrete Math textbook for it. Instead, I concentrated on things such as binary representations of negative and floating point numbers, because the majority of the computer students who showed up for it had been UNAWARE that anything but positive integers could be expressed in binary! FOR REAL. For your amusement: The calculator included in Windoze purports to have a "Programmer" mode. But within that calculator non-integers do not exist in the "programmer" mode. Although it does have some 2's complement negatives. Even had a few students who had been told in school that "PI is about 3.1416 or 22/7" by teachers who interpreted that to mean (about 3.1416) or ([EXACTLY] 22/7). and similar, comparable misinformation. That is apparently STILL being taught! (60 years ago, I got sent to the principal's office for discipline in 5th grade for disagreeing with my teacher, and pointing out that since 22/7 was NOT "about 3.1416" (3.142857), why would they say that it was about 3.1416 if it is 3.142857, and that PI was NOT a "rational number" ) So, I'm not the right person for Discrete math. For a course entitles "computer math", I considered getting competence with hex, octal, binary, including negatives and floats, to be a higher priority than the math theory. I made the students manually calculate the (first 32) bit pattern for PI. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 16:14:56 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 17:14:56 -0400 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 4:58 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/12/2020 3:29 PM dwight via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. > It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. > It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into > theoretical mathematics. > > Dwight > > > Hacker Spaces are filled with lots of different people. Not all are > engineers. It might even be safe to say they are in the minority. > > Will > I might be weird, but I thought discrete math was easier than most other maths I took, but I took it in grad school and by then I was more serious about studying. It's more of a programmer's math not as much of an "engineering math". I wish I had time to help, but I live near the U of Del and I'd suggest contacting the U of Del math department,there are a lot of students there looking for part time jobs. Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 12 16:27:57 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 14:27:57 -0700 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> , <1837620410.154913.1602535261459@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I agree with the others: go look for other textbooks. There are also surprisingly good "webinar's" on various math related topics on YouTube (free), so it might be worthwhile to have him do a bit of searching. Oddly, I never had any discrete math courses in school...it was "old school EE" so everything was differential equations and stochastic processes. I did end up teaching myself about finite fields (Galios Fields to be specific) when I needed to do some work with error correcting codes. I ended up with 3 or 4 different textbooks on the topic. I have since gone back to refresh myself about them and found several good video courses on YouTube. TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Oct 12 16:43:08 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 21:43:08 +0000 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> , Message-ID: Remakable. It was not the descrete math I know, then. It would vary heavy on logic and set theory stuff. Not the kind of stuff I deal with at work. It was a long time ago though. Things have changed. The closest we go to a real computer was a Monrow calculator. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Monday, October 12, 2020 1:54 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Tutor needed for college student On 10/12/20 4:29 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into theoretical mathematics. Seriously? Every CS and CIS student at the University where I worked for 25 years had to take Discrete Math. I am sure most other engineering disciplines required it, too but I would have to look it up to be sure. bill From kirkbdavis at me.com Mon Oct 12 17:07:28 2020 From: kirkbdavis at me.com (Kirk Davis) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:07:28 -0700 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: Hey Cindy Just to add to the good suggestions already given here I?d suggest looking on Craigs List. Typically there are some good (starving) grad students that do tutoring on the side. Kirk Sent from my iPad > On Oct 12, 2020, at 8:14 AM, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > > ?If anyone has spare time, and is familiar with discrete mathematics, I have a friend who is a young college kid and desperately needs a tutor. His prof just says to read the book, and take online quizzes. He is failing. If you can help, please email me. He is in Delaware. > > -- > Cindy Croxton > Electronics Plus > 1613 Water Street > Kerrville, TX 78028 > 830-370-3239 direct > From jim.manley at gmail.com Mon Oct 12 17:48:46 2020 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 15:48:46 -0700 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: Cindy - if he can't find any other alternative, please feel free to forward his contact info to me, or send my e-mail address to him (a Reply To will expose it), cc: me. The rest of this is background for those who may be curious about the state of our educational system from someone on the inside - those with lives may return to them now. In the olden days, before CS was offered Pretty Much Everywhere, discrete math courses were often disguised by titles such as Finite Automata and State Machines and offered in Science or Engineering departments, while courses on Predicate Calculus, and Number Theory (e.g., Groups, Fields, and Rings) were typically required to be taken in Math departments. Some requirements have been gradually sliding down into earlier grades, to the point where Number Theory is now taught in small bites (pun fully intended) starting in middle schools as early as 5th grade (beginning the hierarchy with Whole numbers). Eventually, a number type or two, properties, identities, etc., are added, potentially up through Real numbers in high school, depending on whether Physics and/or Advanced Electronics is going to be taken. Some states are mandating CS fundamentals in every grade, from K through 12 (Virginia has come up with one of the best I've seen, as it includes sample lesson and unit plans in addition to the curriculum requirements). CS in K - 12 may sound ridiculous, but the sooner you can expose kids to the most basic concepts, it's much more likely they'll be able to continue the progression. I've taught binary math to kindergartners using pennies. They don't know that a penny is 1/100th of a dollar, because they can't understand what either of those concepts are, but they do know that pennies are shiny (I go to the bank to get rolls of new ones) and they see that others who are older use them to buy things. I just use pennies to represent ones, and absence of pennies as zeroes in binary, usually in egg cartons to immediately show the organization of bits, and making more obvious where the absences are. Kids learn how to read and say binary numbers (e.g., 10 isn't "ten", it's "one-zero", and they haven't learned decimal ten yet anyway, which is a good thing). It's much easier to teach binary math first, and higher-order number representations later, than the other way around. Then, we go through the four rules for binary addition - zero plus zero equals zero, zero plus one equals one, one plus zero equals one, and one plus one equals zero and carry a one to the left. It's easy for the kids to learn this by handling the pennies and moving them between egg carton depressions in accordance with those rules. In later grades, multiplication by two by moving each penny one space to the left is likewise a piece of cake, as well as division by two by moving each penny to the right. When kids learn a concept, they get to keep the pennies used in that day's lesson, and kids will do lots of things to become shiny penny hoarders. That includes stealing other kids' pennies, whereupon, when, not if caught, we make a detour into computing ethics, which is one of the sets of concepts required to be covered in every CS course! BTW, one of the reasons that we have to get girls exposed to STEM in a friendly way as early as possible is because peer pressure against them excelling in STEM starts around the fourth grade. I've actually overheard conversations among girls that young that go something like this: "Oh, you don't want to be too good at math and science because then you'll make the boys not like you because you're smarter. Then, they won't ask you out on dates, you won't get married, and you'll never have kids and grandkids." I am not making this up, and there are geographic/ethnic groups that reinforce this in spades - girls are supposed to get married after high school, have kids, and raise a family ... period. Based on what I've observed going on in K - 12 STEM in most states, I'm seriously wondering who will be keeping the lights on, let alone the rest of our infrastructure running, when I'm at the age where getting my favorite flavor of pudding will be the high point of my day. People with humanities degrees (almost no universities offer true liberal arts programs any more, where science and math are given equal emphasis to literature, history, etc.) are now preferable to become STEM teachers than people with STEM degrees. Part of it is because there are now ten people with humanities degrees for each job opening requiring them, but there are upwards of two STEM jobs for each person with such a degree, so people with humanities degrees are simply cheaper to hire. It's even worse in education, where recruiting people with STEM degrees is very difficult due to competition from commercial organizations, especially high-cost-of-living metro areas. Educational administrators almost all have humanities degrees now, as the old-timers who have STEM degrees and come up through the system are retiring as part of the continuing expansion of the number of Boomers leaving the workforce. It's become a perfect storm, and that's not a Good Thing. We now return the rest of you to your Life, already in progress ... All the Best, Jim KJ7JHE From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 12 18:15:20 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 19:15:20 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> Well, the drive is working. Better. Summary: The PDT11/150 needs to have resistors on the harness to the floppy drives to limit the current for the sector LED. Without it the LED will be "off" and you will get a quick 8 stepper motor clicks without any click to load the heads. Looks like the PDT uses the sector count signal to determine if a disk is in the drive, and if it doesn't see that it just fails with a quick braaap! And after trying a 47 ohm resistor (marginal) and a 22 ohm resistor (no luck at all) it turns out you want to use around 67 ohms of resistance for best results on the sector led. I didn't have any 67 ohm resistors, but I did have two 140 ohm resistors, so putting those in parallel gave me 70. Drive PD1: now boots, reads disks, and seems kind of happy. I still need to clean up the whole board and put this harness in the drive, but at least it's running with two floppies again. On the bad side (and something to think about): My memory must be in error: I can't format RX01 floppies with the PDT11. I recall that the PDT would literally rewrite the sector information along with the actual data track on each write (why) but this is not enough to format or init a blank disk apparently. Which is odd, because I have a few Elephant Memory systems floppies that still work and obviously *are* formatted for RX01/PDT. But I never owned an RX02 so how did I get these formatted in the first place? On to the RX02 again I guess. I'm going to put this pdt11/150 back together and start thinking about how to format floppies. I've heard that the RX02 can format an RX01, but can it? Certainly not with an RXV11 controller, I'll need to either find an RXV21 or get a Unibus pdp11 working so I can use this RX21 controller someone graciously lent me (or find my Quniverter and try that, but that would be stupid-complicated). Which could be interesting: I have two Unibus pdp11's: My 11/05 (which I think only has 24kw of core memory anymore) and my 11/24 (which I have never gotten to work right and doesn't have any memory boards). Quick question to end this thread: Can an 11/24 come up to ODT without any memory? I've never seen anything on the serial ports. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 12 18:20:43 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 12 Oct 2020 16:20:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: Jim, THANK YOU You are taking it further than most of the high schools were 20 years ago. It was incredibly rewarding when I could assist an epiphany, such as that arithmetic could be done IN binary/hex/octal, WITHOUT conversion to decimal/arithmetic/conversion back! California mandated "Computer Literacy" in the Community College system. But, they didn't DEFINE it! It was left to college administators to make THAT decision. Not even the curriculum committee could have input. The administator would typically define computer literacy as being about half of what they knew. And we had a guy who would write a memo about room change for a meeting in WordPervert, print it out, scan it, and attach the JPG to an email with subject of FYI and content of "See Attached". Half of wht he knew wasn't even enough for the remedial job training for the digital sweatshop. Then, ten years ago, California also added a mandate for "Information Competency". Again undefined. The state even permitted the schools to declare that they already had suitable courses or even that "Information Competency is adequately covered, diffused throughout the curriculum". I created a course outline for a single semester lower division undergraduate (community college) course introducing Information Science. I never got a chance to teach it :-( Our administration declared that topics such as Precision, Recall, Relevance, Bandwidth, File structures, information representations, Search Engine Optimization, computer/internet ethics, internet economics, internet history, etc. were inappropriate below grad school level. (If THEY didn't know it, then there was no reason to permit teaching it, even though they permitted Chemistry and Calculus) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com On Mon, 12 Oct 2020, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Cindy - if he can't find any other alternative, please feel free to forward > his contact info to me, or send my e-mail address to him (a Reply To will > expose it), cc: me. > > The rest of this is background for those who may be curious about the state > of our educational system from someone on the inside - those with lives may > return to them now. > > In the olden days, before CS was offered Pretty Much Everywhere, discrete > math courses were often disguised by titles such as Finite Automata and > State Machines and offered in Science or Engineering departments, while > courses on Predicate Calculus, and Number Theory (e.g., Groups, Fields, and > Rings) were typically required to be taken in Math departments. > > Some requirements have been gradually sliding down into earlier grades, to > the point where Number Theory is now taught in small bites (pun fully > intended) starting in middle schools as early as 5th grade (beginning the > hierarchy with Whole numbers). Eventually, a number type or two, > properties, identities, etc., are added, potentially up through Real > numbers in high school, depending on whether Physics and/or Advanced > Electronics is going to be taken. > > Some states are mandating CS fundamentals in every grade, from K through 12 > (Virginia has come up with one of the best I've seen, as it includes > sample lesson and unit plans in addition to the curriculum requirements). > CS in K - 12 may sound ridiculous, but the sooner you can expose kids to > the most basic concepts, it's much more likely they'll be able to continue > the progression. I've taught binary math to kindergartners using pennies. > They don't know that a penny is 1/100th of a dollar, because they can't > understand what either of those concepts are, but they do know that pennies > are shiny (I go to the bank to get rolls of new ones) and they see that > others who are older use them to buy things. > > I just use pennies to represent ones, and absence of pennies as zeroes in > binary, usually in egg cartons to immediately show the organization of > bits, and making more obvious where the absences are. Kids learn how to > read and say binary numbers (e.g., 10 isn't "ten", it's "one-zero", and > they haven't learned decimal ten yet anyway, which is a good thing). It's > much easier to teach binary math first, and higher-order number > representations later, than the other way around. > > Then, we go through the four rules for binary addition - zero plus zero > equals zero, zero plus one equals one, one plus zero equals one, and one > plus one equals zero and carry a one to the left. It's easy for the kids > to learn this by handling the pennies and moving them between egg carton > depressions in accordance with those rules. In later grades, > multiplication by two by moving each penny one space to the left is > likewise a piece of cake, as well as division by two by moving each penny > to the right. > > When kids learn a concept, they get to keep the pennies used in that day's > lesson, and kids will do lots of things to become shiny penny hoarders. > That includes stealing other kids' pennies, whereupon, when, not if caught, > we make a detour into computing ethics, which is one of the sets of > concepts required to be covered in every CS course! > > BTW, one of the reasons that we have to get girls exposed to STEM in a > friendly way as early as possible is because peer pressure against them > excelling in STEM starts around the fourth grade. I've actually overheard > conversations among girls that young that go something like this: "Oh, you > don't want to be too good at math and science because then you'll make the > boys not like you because you're smarter. Then, they won't ask you out on > dates, you won't get married, and you'll never have kids and grandkids." I > am not making this up, and there are geographic/ethnic groups that > reinforce this in spades - girls are supposed to get married after high > school, have kids, and raise a family ... period. > > Based on what I've observed going on in K - 12 STEM in most states, I'm > seriously wondering who will be keeping the lights on, let alone the rest > of our infrastructure running, when I'm at the age where getting my > favorite flavor of pudding will be the high point of my day. People with > humanities degrees (almost no universities offer true liberal arts programs > any more, where science and math are given equal emphasis to literature, > history, etc.) are now preferable to become STEM teachers than people with > STEM degrees. > > Part of it is because there are now ten people with humanities degrees for > each job opening requiring them, but there are upwards of two STEM jobs for > each person with such a degree, so people with humanities degrees are > simply cheaper to hire. It's even worse in education, where recruiting > people with STEM degrees is very difficult due to competition from > commercial organizations, especially high-cost-of-living metro areas. > Educational administrators almost all have humanities degrees now, as the > old-timers who have STEM degrees and come up through the system are > retiring as part of the continuing expansion of the number of Boomers > leaving the workforce. It's become a perfect storm, and that's not a Good > Thing. > > We now return the rest of you to your Life, already in progress ... > > All the Best, > Jim KJ7JHE From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Oct 13 01:59:42 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 08:59:42 +0200 Subject: Looking For Computer Automation LSI-3/05 Documentation In-Reply-To: <3MqE-nzeiUpsbsvGJQwDjzve3KfAbefN28AG04DUScHWVOa8FDntOzuALq2m282KXWhw_-2wlamVassDFzH5Tc81cEvlkoKhZEyggtrzFmE=@protonmail.com> References: <3MqE-nzeiUpsbsvGJQwDjzve3KfAbefN28AG04DUScHWVOa8FDntOzuALq2m282KXWhw_-2wlamVassDFzH5Tc81cEvlkoKhZEyggtrzFmE=@protonmail.com> Message-ID: <20201013065942.kamq3n7ny4vo7r4v@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 08, 2020 at 11:57:01PM +0000, TangentDelta via cctalk wrote: > Hello. > > I have two card cages out of a pair of Linotron 202 phototypesetting machines, and have been hunting for documentation for the Naked Mini systems used in them for over a year now. The Computer Automation CPU boards in the systems have been a complete mystery to me until recently. To make a long story short, I happened to stumble across the patent for the machine (https://patents.google.com/patent/US4254468A/en), which has the same bus configuration as my card cages, and also provides some good evidence that "Naked Milli" 3/05 CPU boards were used. > I've found documentation for the LSI 3/05's instruction set and an informative brochure, but nothing technical. Bitsavers has been a great help in my efforts to uncover more information about this processor, but there's still a lot of technical information that has eluded me (such as the autoload ROM, and how its data is arranged). The LSI-series computer handbook mentions a dedicated manual for the LSI 3/05, but I haven't found anything else about it online. > > If anyone has any information about the LSI 3/05, or where I might look for the manual, it'd be greatly appreciated. > > Thanks. Hi This seems to be mostly about the Naked Mini 4. But perhaps you can find something useful: http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/CA-mirror/www.sdu.se/ or maybe here: ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pontus/alpha_lsi Regards, Pontus From mark at markesystems.com Tue Oct 13 03:01:04 2020 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 01:01:04 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 73, Issue 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8689DBA890034226B78618255519E989@Daedalus> >>> I suspect much of the electronics is fine. It would be good for someone >>> wanting backup cards. >> You must be joking. Those cards are done. Any chip that is still >> operational will likely fail upon or shortly after power is applied. > Most components can stand soldering temperatures. It is clear > that it was only hot enough to melt plastics. That isn't even hot > enough to damage boards. I have physically seen the equipment in question, in the warehouse. A few of the cards in the cage may still be salvageable - maybe, with some very powerful juju. But much of the hardware is damaged *far* beyond any hope of recovery. As Jim says, the ~~ Mark Moulding From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 09:23:22 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 10:23:22 -0400 Subject: Tutor needed for college student In-Reply-To: References: <3f5fe181-3aab-d073-4109-2e787c6d92f3@elecplus.com> Message-ID: On 10/12/20 5:43 PM, dwight wrote: > Remakable. It was not the descrete math I know, then. It would vary > heavy on logic and set theory stuff. Not the kind of stuff I deal with > at work. It was a long time ago though. Things have changed. The closest > we go to a real computer was a Monrow calculator. I used to laugh when I heard students (Freshman who had not actually started CS classes yet) talking among themselves about how this was totally unrelated to CS so why do they have to take it. I started in CS before I had any kind of degree so taking college courses later was like finishing up the documentation on a project. When I took Discrete Math I was amazed at how much of it applied to my everyday job in IT. Venn Diagrams and writing SQL queries. Node Diagrams and linked lists or network architecture. And the list goes on and on. Yes, I did the job without having taken a Discrete Math course, but that doesn't mean I didn't learn it. I just learned it like everything else. The hard way on the job learning from my mistakes. I didn't take any college level programming courses until after 20 years of doing the job. But that doesn't necessarily mean the courses are unneeded. bill > Dwight > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Bill > Gunshannon via cctalk > *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 1:54 PM > *To:* cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: Tutor needed for college student > On 10/12/20 4:29 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not too sure Hackers will have someone that is into Discrete Math. It is way beyond what a typical engineer will go through to get a degree. It is not a course someone would take without expecting to get into theoretical mathematics. > > Seriously?? Every CS and CIS student at the University where I > worked for 25 years had to take Discrete Math.? I am sure most > other engineering disciplines required it, too but I would have > to? look it up to be sure. > > bill > From sales at elecplus.com Tue Oct 13 13:50:21 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:50:21 -0500 Subject: college study Message-ID: My grandfather wrote a book, "This is the Way to Study" SQ3R was the system Study, Question, Read, Write, Review Look over the chapter, read the captions of the pics, look at the bold text then make notes of questions for things that pop up Then Read the chapter through Write down more questions read again to find your answers then do the problems at the end of the chapter look over everything again, and see if u understand it all have someone else quiz u, if needed then review it all, and u should have a good grasp on it My college friend says Wow, that is a LOT of work! Is there an expectation now that being educated is NOT a lot of work? -- Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 direct From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Tue Oct 13 13:56:01 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 13:56:01 -0500 (CDT) Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1208505008.188630.1602615361861@email.ionos.com> > On 10/13/2020 1:50 PM Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > > > My grandfather wrote a book, "This is the Way to Study" > > ... > My college friend says Wow, that is a LOT of work! > > Is there an expectation now that being educated is NOT a lot of work? > > -- > My opinion, based on my experience: There is an expectation that getting a degree is not, or should not be, a lot of work. Many people confuse getting a degree with getting an education. Will From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 14:14:16 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 12:14:16 -0700 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: <1208505008.188630.1602615361861@email.ionos.com> References: <1208505008.188630.1602615361861@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 10/13/20 11:56 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > My opinion, based on my experience: > There is an expectation that getting a degree is not, or should not be, a lot of work. Many people confuse getting a degree with getting an education. As evidenced in many areas. For example, a DMA degree does not guarantee one a performing gig. It may not even guarantee a teaching gig. I know of a few engineers who went back to school after getting a DMA in order to find a regular paying job. Indeed, when I was a young man, almost nobody in my department had a degree in Computer Science. It lent a great deal of variety to the work environment. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 14:17:22 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:17:22 -0400 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> > On Oct 13, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: > > ... > My college friend says Wow, that is a LOT of work! > > Is there an expectation now that being educated is NOT a lot of work? It depends. In sciences, people understand that it's a lot of work. In what Robert Heinlein called the "fuzzy subjects", you can often be a party animal who does very little real work and get a degree anyway. If so, it doesn't mean you learned anything and it doesn't mean the field you picked as a major has any merit or usefulness. paul From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Oct 13 14:25:08 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:25:08 +0100 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <1208505008.188630.1602615361861@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <17f33a10-4198-3784-3a64-3c5157d735a1@ntlworld.com> On 13/10/2020 20:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > As evidenced in many areas. For example, a DMA degree does not > guarantee one a performing gig. It may not even guarantee a teaching gig. Is a DMA degree one where some other entity does all the work but the degree ends up in the right place? :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 13 14:45:22 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 12:45:22 -0700 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: <17f33a10-4198-3784-3a64-3c5157d735a1@ntlworld.com> References: <1208505008.188630.1602615361861@email.ionos.com> <17f33a10-4198-3784-3a64-3c5157d735a1@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <30a34639-16fd-2d6d-7f00-8873744d3ef9@sydex.com> On 10/13/20 12:25 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 13/10/2020 20:14, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> As evidenced in many areas.?? For example, a DMA degree does not >> guarantee one a performing gig.? It may not even guarantee a teaching >> gig. > > > Is a DMA degree one where some other entity does all the work but the > degree ends up in the right place? :-) An apology--I forgot to elaborate: DMA = Doctor of Musical Arts. One can get such a degree from a university without having much real talent...but the same can be said of many fields of study. I once worked with an EE who was a secret Juilliard grad in piano. I didn't know he could play--and neither did any of his friends--or his wife. He didn't eve own a piano. We didn't find out until there was a party at one of my co-workers. One of those affairs where booze flows freely and musical instruments are scattered about for anyone who would like to perform or accompany someone. These were all computer people. Said fellow observed me noodling around on the ivories mangling some ragtime piece. He was pretty soused and sat down next to me and asked if there was anything that I'd like to hear him play. I suggested the Bach Goldberg variations in jest. He tore right off on them, from the aria to the quodlibet, not even pausing to recall. His wife was beside herself and nearly in shock. He never discussed it again. --Chuck From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 13 14:51:24 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 12:51:24 -0700 Subject: Maynard MaynStream References: Message-ID: I have a Maynard MaynStream tape backup unit from the 1980's. It uses audio-format cassettes with 1/4" tape, but it's a different tape composition, and the cassette has a notch in it to tell the device it's not just plain audio tape. The capacity was 80 MB per cassette. I also have four ISA controller cards, four cables, and several cassettes. We used it for backup with IBM PC/AT boxes many years ago. Does anybody want it? It seems a shame to throw it in the e-waste bin. Van Snyder van.snyder at sbcglobal.net From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 15:59:35 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:59:35 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 7:15 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Well, the drive is working. Better... Excellent! > I've heard that the RX02 can format an RX01, but can it? Nope. There were 3rd party controllers that could format 8" media in DEC machines (DSD for one). DEC controllers and DEC 8" drives cannot. Not for any platform. Back in the day, DEC floppy users purchased pre-formatted floppies. If you had an RX02, you could "INIT" an RX01 floppy to RX02 use - essentially just rewriting the data portion of the sector to double-density (256 bytes per sector) and I _think_ it's possible to put it back. CP/M users could and did buy blank media and format it. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 13 16:28:50 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 17:28:50 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> > DEC controllers and DEC 8" drives cannot. Not for any platform. > > Back in the day, DEC floppy users purchased pre-formatted floppies. > If you had an RX02, you could "INIT" an RX01 floppy to RX02 use - > essentially just rewriting the data portion of the sector to > double-density (256 bytes per sector) and I _think_ it's possible to > put it back. Then I guess the question rattling around my brain is "How did I get this Elephant Memory systems disk formatted?" I know I didn't have an RX02 at the time, and I know DEC didn't do it for me as a favor. I know I bought a box of ten of them because I stuck the Elephant Memory Systems sticker on the front of my RM02 for good luck (I wonder where that drive is these days....) I thought that is why I kept the PDT11 around. I do have a card around here called an RXV21 from Plessy or something like that, maybe it could talk to an RX01 drive and format the disks? Darn brain, there's a hole in it somewhere around this seemingly not-interesting fact. The disk though is still here, and is formatted RX01 with programs I wrote to it 30 years ago. I did have an H11 computer, but it did not have the H27 disk drive, or at least I have no memory of owning one after looking at that one on Ebay. In a practical sense, I really don't need to format anything anymore: The best use for the RX01 is to bootstrap BRUSYS so I can backup the EDSI disk with the TK50. Reading old disks is nice, but the first thing I do is create a .DSK image of them on a real disk. In theory it is handy to have a small capacity disk to do image transfers from SIMH using the PDP11GUI but now that I have Kermit up I can just transfer stuff that way.... Anyone want a pile of old RX02 formatted disks? I'll trade them for a few RX01 floppies just to have and to make PD: bootable disks for all the MiniMINCs out there. > Back in the day, DEC floppy users purchased pre-formatted floppies. > If you had an RX02, you could "INIT" an RX01 floppy to RX02 use - > essentially just rewriting the data portion of the sector to > double-density (256 bytes per sector) and I _think_ it's possible to > put it back. Hm. Well at least that makes disk alignments a lot simpler: If all the disks were originally formatted at DEC then interchange is pretty much guaranteed. Ah DEC. Always wanted to get that last nickel from their user base. CZ From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 16:59:22 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:59:22 +0200 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2020 at 21:17, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > It depends. In sciences, people understand that it's a lot of work. In what Robert Heinlein called the "fuzzy subjects", you can often be a party animal who does very little real work and get a degree anyway. If so, it doesn't mean you learned anything and it doesn't mean the field you picked as a major has any merit or usefulness. I see comments like in this thread a lot, and I have also looked over some modern uni papers and they look straight forward to me. I only have a BSc and I have PhD envy, and occasionally idly considered "dropping out" from work and doing a Master's and a PhD over here in Czechia. Then I unexpectedly had a daughter, at 52, and it's no longer an option. But the thing is -- over here in the former communist bloc, people are even keener on education and degrees than back in the West. (I had to bring my degree certificate to prove I had one!) Study is free or very cheap and not time-limited; I know of people who have been at uni for over a decade. *But* saying that, I taught English for a year or so over here, and 2 of my students were also full-time uni students. One was studying English, because she wanted to be a TEFL teacher. It was her 3rd attempt at a degree. Another did physics, dropped out, then did maths, dropped out, then did computer science, and dropped out. The real core point of a degree, I feel, is that it shows that you can pick a subject, knuckle down, study it for several years, subject yourself to the stress of exams and theses and so on, and _keep doing it until you have one_. This is _not_ an idle threat. I personally know smart, motivated people who just did not have that degree of self-control and self-discipline. I also have a friend with quite severe ADHD who has a good history degree. He has _very little_ self-control and a butterfly mind, but the point is, he knew he needed it so he got his head down and did it. So, yes, they _do_ seem easier now than when I did mine in the late 1980s, but they are still hard and still take a long time and they _do_ select people -- or *deselect* people. And as for the "soft" studies, the oft-mocked arts and so on... well, I had friends at Uni who did maths or comp-sci, and some were _startlingly_ ignorant of the world around them, because _all_ they knew was maths. I had a close friend -- who still is, nearly 40y later -- who did English. He had a laughable lecture load of an hour or 90min a week, and moved to a house 30 miles and a couple of hours' travel away. But the amount of reading he was expected to do was extremely intimidating. I'm a speed-reader; I did most of the optional reading for all my courses, including my Eng Lit "high school" course. ('A'-level, for the English.) My friend did about 10x more than that or more. Consistently several long dense books a week for 3 years, holidays/vacation included. Not trivial at all! And long after, I befriended 2 young chaps via a wonderful organization I was extremely peripherally involved in founding and running -- Skeptics in the Pub. These guys were friends of each other from Uni, where they both did Media Studies, a subject I'd always regarded as a bit of a joke. I learned something from them. I was wrong. They're both very smart, and their knowledge and erudition was astonishing. Far far more than my English-degree olding friend, who even now in his 50s is an unworldly ingenue. Alex and Jonathan had a good solid grasp of world communications and affairs going back 50 years -- they could, for instance, pick up subsconscious references or quotations or paraphrases from minor TV series that I watched decades before they were born, and not only that, tell me who acted in, wrote and directed it. They knew science communications, good and bad, and how it should be done, and the problems, and the core stuff that it needed. They knew print fiction and poetry and song and theatre and classic and modern painting and sculpture and so on. The point I took away from this is that *if* you're genuinely interested and *if* you genuinely work on this kind of study, it _is_ very much real, valid and important, and the resultant knowledge and understanding are profound and valid and useful. In our current world of "fake news" and biased reporting and politicians cuddled up with media conglomerates, of foreign nations using paid posters on social networks to influence social opinions, of people inserting falsehoods into online references, inventing scare stories and spreading them online, all this sort of thing -- people who _know_ and truly understand and can dissect and if needed manipulate "The Media" are essential. So, yes, I no longer mock the "soft sciences" and the liberal arts and humanities as much as I did. I've come to see it's not an easy or lightweight option, it's hard and it's arguably important and certainly worthwhile. Yes, true, smart students can coast through. But that's OK -- one, they're smart anyway; two, being smart isn't enough, you need some of what my mother would call "stick-to-it-iveness" and that's not a universal quality. We need a balanced selection of subjects and studies. There's nothing I'd particularly cut, although perhaps some things are more important to fund well than others. But I really would like to see more mandatory cross-disciplinary studies. I did biology (meaning a rather intense mixture of botany, zoology, ecology, biochemistry, and both plant and animal anatomy and physiology) but I also took computer programming and management studies. I studied 23 hours per week (3x5h days, 1x8h day) and consistently had a weekday off. I really could have handled more, and I think I should have been pushed to do that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 17:02:02 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:02:02 +0200 Subject: Maynard MaynStream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2020 at 21:51, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > > I have a Maynard MaynStream tape backup unit from the 1980's. > > It uses audio-format cassettes with 1/4" tape, but it's a different > tape composition, and the cassette has a notch in it to tell the device > it's not just plain audio tape. The capacity was 80 MB per cassette. > > I also have four ISA controller cards, four cables, and several > cassettes. We used it for backup with IBM PC/AT boxes many years ago. > > Does anybody want it? It seems a shame to throw it in the e-waste bin. At least offer it for sale! I had a later model, which used VHS-C cassettes. I should get another one, as I have a bunch of backup tapes and some stuff on there is probably the only copy I own now... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Oct 13 17:04:24 2020 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:04:24 +0100 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <6bd6bdf9-df77-35c8-ae7a-ded55388873f@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/10/2020 22:28, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Then I guess the question rattling around my brain is "How did I get > this Elephant Memory systems disk formatted?" RX01 format is a standard IBM format used by many systems, including many CP/M ones, so it was possible to buy pre-formatted disks. Maybe they came that way. > I do have a card around here called an RXV21 from Plessy or something > like that, maybe it could talk to an RX01 drive and format the disks? Many 3-party controllers could. Mine isn't a Plessey one, but it can do that - but mine connects to standard SA800-style drives, not an RX02. I also have a Baydel F311 controller, which also can format disks and connects to standard SA800-style drives, but it only does single density. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 13 17:19:11 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 15:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I see comments like in this thread a lot, and I have also looked over > some modern uni papers and they look straight forward to me. I only > have a BSc and I have PhD envy, and occasionally idly considered > "dropping out" from work and doing a Master's and a PhD over here in > Czechia. Then I unexpectedly had a daughter, at 52, and it's no longer Do you want the degree? Or do you want to LEARN? Take a course in your limited "spare time". Then another. and another I did grad school (UC Berkeley) while teaching full time plus running a business, and over 40 years old. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From lproven at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 17:36:03 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 00:36:03 +0200 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 00:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Do you want the degree? > Or do you want to LEARN? Fair! Both. > Take a course in your limited "spare time". > Then another. > and another > > I did grad school (UC Berkeley) while teaching full time plus running a > business, and over 40 years old. This may be tricky in a country where I do not usefully speak the language -- but if we get through the newest pandemic outbreak and out the other side next year some time, when Ada is a little older, it's worth investigating. Thanks for the encouragement. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Oct 13 18:00:43 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:00:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: >> Take a course in your limited "spare time". >> Then another. >> and another >> I did grad school (UC Berkeley) while teaching full time plus running a >> business, and over 40 years old. On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > This may be tricky in a country where I do not usefully speak the > language -- but if we get through the newest pandemic outbreak and out > the other side next year some time, when Ada is a little older, it's > worth investigating. > Thanks for the encouragement. You can do it! START SMALL. One trivial class, first. My father got his PhD at 38, when I was 7 years old He never discussed it with us, but I found out that he had needed the credibility of the degree for getting grants and projects. My grad degrees made NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL in my employment - my experience had already bumped me up to the top of the heap for my teaching job. If your sole motivation is the diploma, then it may be problematic and frustrating. But, if you also want to LEARN the material, then even the tiniest amount at a time eventually adds up. And there are so many things that are FUN to learn. I am still checking the class schedules to see if/when the Computational Linguistics class gets taught again. Also the bookbinding class! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From van.snyder at sbcglobal.net Tue Oct 13 18:08:30 2020 From: van.snyder at sbcglobal.net (Van Snyder) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 16:08:30 -0700 Subject: Maynard MaynStream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87a3b6cbcde49095f300da4e16cacfc18f655620.camel@sbcglobal.net> On Wed, 2020-10-14 at 00:02 +0200, Liam Proven wrote: > On Tue, 13 Oct 2020 at 21:51, Van Snyder via cctalk< > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I have a Maynard MaynStream tape backup unit from the 1980's. > > It uses audio-format cassettes with 1/4" tape, but it's a > > differenttape composition, and the cassette has a notch in it to > > tell the deviceit's not just plain audio tape. The capacity was 80 > > MB per cassette. > > I also have four ISA controller cards, four cables, and > > severalcassettes. We used it for backup with IBM PC/AT boxes many > > years ago. > > Does anybody want it? It seems a shame to throw it in the e-waste > > bin. > > At least offer it for sale! I'll send it for a PDF of a shipping label for a 20" x 10" x 10" 10lb box, your choice of carrier. > I had a later model, which used VHS-C cassettes. I should get > anotherone, as I have a bunch of backup tapes and some stuff on there > isprobably the only copy I own now... > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 13 19:19:19 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:19:19 -0400 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Oct 13, 2020, at 6:36 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 00:19, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Do you want the degree? >> Or do you want to LEARN? > > Fair! > > Both. I like learning. Partly it's the good influence of my late father, and I said so in my eulogy. I keep learning new programming languages, for one thing. :-) And I like learning strange stuff. Some years ago I bought a text book about writing systems and read it with great pleasure. Some years earlier a textbook about (human) languages and their relationship ("The world's major languages", Bernard Comrie, Ed. -- VERY good). There are lots of ways to keep your mind exercised. >> Take a course in your limited "spare time". >> Then another. >> and another >> >> I did grad school (UC Berkeley) while teaching full time plus running a >> business, and over 40 years old. > > This may be tricky in a country where I do not usefully speak the > language ... That's true. Studying the language is one example of "learning" you could undertake. I remember a teleconference with an Indian colleague some years ago. He had to drop off early because he was going off to Hebrew class -- he had recently joined our team in Tel Aviv. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Oct 13 20:22:37 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 21:22:37 -0400 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/13/20 3:17 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Oct 13, 2020, at 2:50 PM, Cindy Croxton via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> My college friend says Wow, that is a LOT of work! >> >> Is there an expectation now that being educated is NOT a lot of work? > > It depends. In sciences, people understand that it's a lot of work. In what Robert Heinlein called the "fuzzy subjects", you can often be a party animal who does very little real work and get a degree anyway. If so, it doesn't mean you learned anything and it doesn't mean the field you picked as a major has any merit or usefulness. > Many moons ago I used to work in a paper products plant. I used to have discussions on philosophy and literature with people with Masters and even Phd's that stuffed boxes with product just like I did. It did help pass the time but seemed somewhat of a waste of a lot of time and money on their part. I got my degree four years before my retirement. bill From seanellis9 at gmail.com Tue Oct 13 20:53:58 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 20:53:58 -0500 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX Message-ID: Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 13 22:07:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:07:13 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <6bd6bdf9-df77-35c8-ae7a-ded55388873f@dunnington.plus.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> <6bd6bdf9-df77-35c8-ae7a-ded55388873f@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <1c65939d-cd2a-96fd-fc10-602f352762bd@alembic.crystel.com> > RX01 format is a standard IBM format used by many systems, including > many CP/M ones, so it was possible to buy pre-formatted disks.? Maybe > they came that way. That may be it: The Elephant disk does say on the factory label: Single sided, single density, IBM compatible, 128 bytes, 26 sectors. So something like that will INIT on an RX01? Maybe that was it, if so weird mystery solved. The other disks from Solarex are not looking good. Some of them have paper copies of directories, and they seemed to be using the FD: driver. Now I believe Solarex was running TSX on their systems, is FD: just TSX's way of saying DY? If not anyone need a bunch of 8 inch floppy disks? Thanks for the help on this one. If the PDT really can't do formatting then maybe I'll just stick it back in the closet for another 20-30 years. It's an odd duck, but a cute odd duck.... CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 13 22:15:42 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 13 Oct 2020 23:15:42 -0400 Subject: college study In-Reply-To: References: <9CFCAC6F-8246-4D37-A4FF-D5A4151B9202@comcast.net> Message-ID: <987e9215-5577-de27-9dc8-80885c350d10@alembic.crystel.com> > I got my degree four years before my retirement. Fun stuff and memories. When I was at UMBC in 1986 I was kicked off the Vax 8600's for writing funny scripts that would run in the batch queues and resubmit between the systems when they completed. Net result was seriously elevated rights, baffled sysadmins, and a hilarious crash when they were killed improperly. Things happen. Off to Essex Community College and their IBM mainframe for me!!! Left college completely a year or so later because I kind of needed to eat, but fortunately I was also worked on the Vax 785 which was connected to this ArpaNet thing. The 8600's were on Bitnet. That knowledge got me 25 or so years of amazing work, friends, family, kids, and community. Finally I figured I would go back and finish an AS at Essex Community College (since I could claim that tuition tax credit too). They still had my old credits and 2 years of part time got me a degree in CS. Then I found you could transfer into U of M. And they had totally forgotten about the Vax thing (a funny story that I'll tell in person). So I spent 2 years doing that and finished my degree at 48. Not because I needed it, but because why not.... I guess you could say I gave up trying for it a long time ago, but I never quite gave up hope. It can be done. CZ From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 14 05:08:00 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 11:08:00 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down Message-ID: Hi, I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the mail queue. Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along with `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. I can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server by its IPv4 address at: . I do hope nothing bad has really happened to Bill in these difficult times. Anybody knows? Maciej From pat at vax11.net Wed Oct 14 05:46:28 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 06:46:28 -0400 Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Umm, Bill passed away a bit over a year ago. May he rest in peace. He had said that there was some sort of plan to hand off Sunhelp, but I'm not sure what happened. Patrick Finnegan On Wed, Oct 14, 2020, 06:08 Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the > mail > queue. Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along > with `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been > taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. I > can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server > by its IPv4 address at: . > > I do hope nothing bad has really happened to Bill in these difficult > times. Anybody knows? > > Maciej > > From db at db.net Wed Oct 14 06:51:21 2020 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 07:51:21 -0400 Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201014115121.GA9080@night.db.net> On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 11:08:00AM +0100, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the mail > queue. Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along > with `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been > taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. I > can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server > by its IPv4 address at: . > > I do hope nothing bad has really happened to Bill in these difficult > times. Anybody knows? He was an old friend of mine he died August 15 2019 of cancer. :-( https://www.gray329.org/bro-william-c-bradford-1974-2019/ > > Maciej Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 14 07:20:54 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:20:54 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: <20201014115121.GA9080@night.db.net> References: <20201014115121.GA9080@night.db.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Diane Bruce wrote: > He was an old friend of mine he died August 15 2019 of cancer. :-( > https://www.gray329.org/bro-william-c-bradford-1974-2019/ So sorry to hear that. :( Maciej From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 14 07:39:39 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 05:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? > YES! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Wed Oct 14 09:07:58 2020 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 15:07:58 +0100 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Would be interesting to see, as I am stuck working with Informix on a daily basis. (: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 13:39, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > > > Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > > 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? > > > > YES! :) > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 10:09:51 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:09:51 -0700 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> On 10/13/20 6:53 PM, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? > please get these to ray arachelian https://lisalist2.com/index.php/board,1.0.html From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Oct 14 10:11:18 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:11:18 -0700 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> On 10/14/20 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/13/20 6:53 PM, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: >> Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix >> 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? >> > > please get these to ray arachelian > https://lisalist2.com/index.php/board,1.0.html > https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,118.15.html From lproven at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:38:55 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 17:38:55 +0200 Subject: Maynard MaynStream In-Reply-To: <87a3b6cbcde49095f300da4e16cacfc18f655620.camel@sbcglobal.net> References: <87a3b6cbcde49095f300da4e16cacfc18f655620.camel@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 01:08, Van Snyder wrote: > I'll send it for a PDF of a shipping label for a 20" x 10" x 10" 10lb box, your choice of carrier. That is a very kind offer and I appreciate your generosity, but I think perhaps you mistake what I was trying to say. It's too old to be of direct interest to me, sadly. What I was saying was that if you put it on eBay, for instance, for a token price -- I used to start my auctions at 1 penny -- you will reach a far wider potential audience than here on ClassicCmp, or indeed on the VCF forums. I'm happy to put it on the Facebook Vintage Computer Club for you, if you'd like, and act as intermediary for comms (assuming you're not on FB). I think it has over 15,000 members now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Oct 14 10:42:17 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 08:42:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/14/20 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/13/20 6:53 PM, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: >>> Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix >>> 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? >>> >> >> please get these to ray arachelian >> https://lisalist2.com/index.php/board,1.0.html >> > https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,118.15.html Oh without a doubt! I recind my request! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Wed Oct 14 11:16:32 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 16:16:32 +0000 Subject: Looking For Computer Automation LSI-3/05 Documentation In-Reply-To: <20201013065942.kamq3n7ny4vo7r4v@Update.UU.SE> References: <3MqE-nzeiUpsbsvGJQwDjzve3KfAbefN28AG04DUScHWVOa8FDntOzuALq2m282KXWhw_-2wlamVassDFzH5Tc81cEvlkoKhZEyggtrzFmE=@protonmail.com> <20201013065942.kamq3n7ny4vo7r4v@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: I actually just found those documents the other day. There's a lot of stuff there that isn't anywhere else! They've been extremely helpful in identifying and working with a pair of LSI 4/30 systems that were previously unidentified. ??????? Original Message ??????? On Tuesday, October 13, 2020 2:59 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Hi > > This seems to be mostly about the Naked Mini 4. But perhaps you can find something useful: > > http://www.update.uu.se/~pontus/CA-mirror/www.sdu.se/ > > or maybe here: > > ftp://ftp.update.uu.se/pub/pontus/alpha_lsi > > Regards, > Pontus From poc at pocnet.net Wed Oct 14 11:25:25 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 18:25:25 +0200 Subject: Searching for (DOS?) Backup Software Message-ID: <4946750E-59D3-4C12-9A2E-7ADE62DB892B@pocnet.net> Hello, anyone heard of Genoa GenWare Backup Software and probably has a copy floating around? Someone was asking me to restore tapes, and the original diskettes aren't readable anymore. https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Books/Business/IDX/1987-04-OCR-Page-0107.pdf :wq! PoC PGP-Key: DDD3 4ABF 6413 38DE - https://www.pocnet.net/poc-key.asc From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 11:55:11 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 12:55:11 -0400 Subject: Searching for (DOS?) Backup Software In-Reply-To: <4946750E-59D3-4C12-9A2E-7ADE62DB892B@pocnet.net> References: <4946750E-59D3-4C12-9A2E-7ADE62DB892B@pocnet.net> Message-ID: maybe there is an OEM version or driver that can read a tape formatted by Genoa without need for the software but yah, does not ring a bell. At that time I used Colorado something or another. Bill On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 12:25 PM Patrik Schindler via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello, > > anyone heard of Genoa GenWare Backup Software and probably has a copy > floating around? Someone was asking me to restore tapes, and the original > diskettes aren't readable anymore. > > > https://worldradiohistory.com/hd2/IDX-Business/Books/Business/IDX/1987-04-OCR-Page-0107.pdf > > :wq! PoC > > PGP-Key: DDD3 4ABF 6413 38DE - https://www.pocnet.net/poc-key.asc > > > From john at ziaspace.com Wed Oct 14 15:08:23 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:08:23 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the mail > queue. Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along > with `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been > taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. I > can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server > by its IPv4 address at: . I noticed this, too. Since sunhelp.org uses mrbill.net DNS servers, and because the server at 184.94.207.190 is still up, we can still see the content if we make our own DNS, so I configured my server at 192.80.49.4 (athena.zia.io) to answer for mrbill.net, for sunhelp.org, for fiftieshouse.com, and for lispmachine.net, so if you want to see any of these, temporarily set your DNS server to 192.80.49.4. I did this in part to mirror sunhelp.org, but I suspect there are already mirrors out there. Sorry to hear about Bill :( John Klos From 821 at 128.ca Wed Oct 14 15:15:39 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 22:15:39 +0200 Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <250CCDF1-48C9-4310-BEA5-6B310D7F9A28@128.ca> There is no content on any other those sites, and some goto malware it seems.. So .. Having known bill for 15+ years.. yeah hard break for him.. rip..respect. > On 14 Oct 2020, at 22:08, John Klos via cctalk wrote: > >> I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the mail >> queue. Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along >> with `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been >> taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. I >> can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server >> by its IPv4 address at: . > > I noticed this, too. Since sunhelp.org uses mrbill.net DNS servers, and because the server at 184.94.207.190 is still up, we can still see the content if we make our own DNS, so I configured my server at 192.80.49.4 (athena.zia.io) to answer for mrbill.net, for sunhelp.org, for fiftieshouse.com, and for lispmachine.net, so if you want to see any of these, temporarily set your DNS server to 192.80.49.4. > > I did this in part to mirror sunhelp.org, but I suspect there are already mirrors out there. > > Sorry to hear about Bill :( > > John Klos From athornton at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 15:28:24 2020 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 13:28:24 -0700 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 73, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I agree that whether a student learns has much more to do with the student than what in particular they're studying. I quit my undergraduate physics degree when I had a moment of clarity that even if I managed to squeak through my Partial Differential Equations class with a C (I did) I'd still be on a trajectory where _solving PDEs was what I would be doing with my life_. My undergrad degree is in Ancient Mediterranean Civilizations. My MA is in History (but, hey, the History of Computing). I dropped out of the Ph.D. program I was in for a variety of reasons, to be honest crushing depression probably chief among them, but also because I was a fairly decent practitioner, and I had more fun playing with computers than I did writing stories about people who'd played with computers a couple generations before I had. It being the late 90s, my job prospects were decidedly better on the Not A Professional Historian side of the fence. That was 22-ish years ago. I'd been making beer money all through college and grad school with IT jobs, and I've stayed in IT-related fields ever since. Consulting, systems administration and engineering, these days software development-but-also-devops. My lack of appropriate degrees probably only didn't hurt because I started a not-unsuccessful consulting business with my mentor after I quit grad school, and by the time I was ready to move on from that, I had enough years of broadly varied experience under my belt that it didn't really matter. But that's tangential. The actual point was: the fuzzy stuff is only contemptible if you've got Physicists' Disease. History is hard, and it has a lot more in common with debugging that is obvious at first glance. In both cases you are presented with "Here's what happened," and it's your job to figure out "why?" In both cases, the ability to break the end-state down into a set of much smaller components which contribute to it is key--and although that ability probably _does_ have a lot to do with innate personality or preference, it's also very, very much a learned (and trained!) skill. The thing with debugging is that you usually are afforded the opportunity the repeat the experiment while changing parameters. With history, you're not so lucky, and thus you never _really_ know the root causes (you also usually don't know "what really happened", but by cross-referencing your sources you may be able to emerge with some sort of decent-consensus guess), but you can make more or less plausible and persuasive hypotheses about them. The idea that you are interrogating a recalcitrant witness is common to both history (and I would guess many of the humanities and social sciences) and creating and maintaining working software. I'll grant that it's _harder_ to surf blithely through an engineering degree than it is through a liberal arts degree, mostly because there are less-subjective metrics (particularly in lab courses) as to whether you actually learned something about what you're supposed to be doing. If I were being snarky, perish the thought, I'd say that the engineers who didn't really want to understand what they were doing were pre-meds. Nevertheless, a degree--and particularly an advanced one--is indeed much more about the discipline to put your head down and swallow what's put in front of you than about smarts. I was told a couple of decades ago I'd regret not having stuck it out for my Ph.D. I'm still waiting for that regret to kick in; in the meantime, many others have come and gone. Adam From john at ziaspace.com Wed Oct 14 15:30:28 2020 From: john at ziaspace.com (John Klos) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:30:28 +0000 (UTC) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: <250CCDF1-48C9-4310-BEA5-6B310D7F9A28@128.ca> References: <250CCDF1-48C9-4310-BEA5-6B310D7F9A28@128.ca> Message-ID: > There is no content on any other those sites, and some goto malware it > seems.. So .. > > Having known bill for 15+ years.. yeah hard break for him.. rip..respect. Well, I'm happy to host any of Bill's content forever. If you visit the sites as they are, you'll see content based on the current owners of mrbill.net, lispmachine.net, fiftieshouse.com... sunhelp.org doesn't resolve because it uses mrbill.net DNS servers, and no DNS servers are configured by the new owners of mrbill.net. If you use 192.80.49.4 as your only DNS server, then try to visit any of those domains, you'll get answers for any / all of them that point to Bill's old address (184.94.207.190). When you visit one of those domains using this DNS server, the server at 184.94.207.190 will recognize the virtualhosts and will provide the proper content. John From seanellis9 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:34:38 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:34:38 -0500 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks Al. For those of you not on LisaList I've uploaded the ZIP to OneDrive: https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApXzHz2ZC305hscHvjo3mOu8loaSxw?e=uOFV9G The one downside is that while the disks seem to read error-free, it needs an activation key which I don't have. I have to wonder if the info on OS/2 Museum is of any use here? http://www.os2museum.com/wp/tales-from-the-xenix-crypt/ On 10/14/20, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/14/20 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> On 10/13/20 6:53 PM, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: >>> Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix >>> 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? >>> >> >> please get these to ray arachelian >> https://lisalist2.com/index.php/board,1.0.html >> > https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,118.15.html > > From seanellis9 at gmail.com Wed Oct 14 10:53:07 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:53:07 -0500 Subject: Maynard MaynStream In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That'd be a pretty cool accessory to have as part of my retro homelab. I don't think it's really ever been documented, either from a quick search online. On 10/13/20, Van Snyder via cctalk wrote: > I have a Maynard MaynStream tape backup unit from the 1980's. > > It uses audio-format cassettes with 1/4" tape, but it's a different > tape composition, and the cassette has a notch in it to tell the device > it's not just plain audio tape. The capacity was 80 MB per cassette. > > I also have four ISA controller cards, four cables, and several > cassettes. We used it for backup with IBM PC/AT boxes many years ago. > > Does anybody want it? It seems a shame to throw it in the e-waste bin. > > Van Snyder > van.snyder at sbcglobal.net > > From jesse at cypress-tech.com Wed Oct 14 09:52:01 2020 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 10:52:01 -0400 Subject: HP1000 A990, A900, & A600 systems, parts, pieces, cable, panels, connectors... etc for sale Message-ID: <2f9d4e1e-62a7-1335-10e6-80bd3ea7bdb0@cypress-tech.com> I'm getting in a lot of the HP1000 systems and parts in next week. If anyone needs any 1k A990, A900, & A600 systems, CPU, memory & interface cards, cables, panels, connectors or anything else associated with those lines, let me know as I probably have them. Just note that I'm a re-seller and not a hobbyist and am selling these items as part of an end-user consignment deal.. two types of complete HP1000 A990 and A600 are below. Let me know if you need anything, want pictures, or have any questions. A990 Server 14-slot Micro 1000 Server (Configured with) 1 x 12990x A990 CPU 1 x 12221B 8MB Memory 1 x C2490A 2GB SE SCSI Internal disk drive 1 x xxxxx? DDS DAT Internal Tape Drive 1 x 12016A SCSI Controller board 1 x 12009A HP-IB Interface board 1 x 12005A Serial Interface board 1 x 12006A Parallel interface board 1 x 12040A Asynchronous Multiplexer Interface (MUX) board 1 x 02430x Voltage Jumper Board 1 x 12230A Front-plane memory connector (CPU to memory connector) $3,500.00 A600 Server 14-slot Micro 1000 Server (Configured with) 1 x 12105x A600 CPU 1 x 12101B Memory Controller 1 x 12103D 1MB Memory 1 x 12103C 512kb Memory 1 x 12022x disk controller board 1 x xxxxx? floppy drive 1 x C2490A 2GB SE SCSI Internal disk drive 1 x 12016A SCSI Controller board 1 x 12009A HP-IB Interface board 1 x 12005A Serial Interface board 1 x 12040A Asynchronous Multiplexer Interface (MUX) board 2 x 12038x Jumper board 1 x 02430x Voltage Jumper Board $2,500.00 Feel free to email direct at jesse(at)cypress-tech.com Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 14 20:43:44 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 19:43:44 -0600 Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9f76fd7a-af00-b0f7-008c-28ca6fe7c974@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/14/20 4:08 AM, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > Hi, Hi, > I posted to and saw my message got stuck in > the mail queue. When did you send your message? I'm trying to judge when the problem started. > Upon a further inspection I saw that the domain has expired along with > `mrbill.net' where the nameservers used to reside and both have been > taken by someone else, taking the name service down for `sunhelp.org'. Eh ... sunhelp.org doesn't expire for a couple of years yet. The problem is that it uses mrbill.net for DNS, which did expire and seems to have been taken over by undesirables. > I can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to > the server by its IPv4 address at: . Thanks to John's quick thinking, it's now possible to hot wire things so that you can get to sunhelp.org, et al. The hot wiring that I did seems to have been sufficient to allow email to flow to sunhelp.org. I've since sent a message to a few people inquiring about the current state of the ongoing rescue operation. The last I knew, some of Bill's co-workers were going to take things over. If anyone cares to similarly hot wire things on their end, I configured my recursive DNS servers to forward Bill's domains to John K.'s DNS server (192.80.49.4). I also configured my email server to route sunhelp.org directly to ohno.mrbill.net. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From macro at linux-mips.org Wed Oct 14 21:07:39 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 03:07:39 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: <9f76fd7a-af00-b0f7-008c-28ca6fe7c974@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9f76fd7a-af00-b0f7-008c-28ca6fe7c974@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I posted to and saw my message got stuck in the mail > > queue. > > When did you send your message? I'm trying to judge when the problem started. Last Mon, Oct 12th. The last message I received from the mailing list was on Oct 1st. WHOIS has this though: Domain Name: MRBILL.NET Registry Domain ID: 1373333_DOMAIN_NET-VRSN Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.namecheap.com Registrar URL: http://www.namecheap.com Updated Date: 2020-10-11T07:01:46Z Creation Date: 1996-10-11T04:00:00Z Registry Expiry Date: 2021-10-10T04:00:00Z Registrar: NameCheap, Inc. Registrar IANA ID: 1068 Registrar Abuse Contact Email: abuse at namecheap.com Registrar Abuse Contact Phone: +1.6613102107 Domain Status: clientTransferProhibited https://icann.org/epp#clientTransferProhibited Name Server: DNS101.REGISTRAR-SERVERS.COM Name Server: DNS102.REGISTRAR-SERVERS.COM DNSSEC: unsigned URL of the ICANN Whois Inaccuracy Complaint Form: https://www.icann.org/wicf/ so I take it the original domain went down on Oct 11th at ~7am; OTOH sunhelp.org itself has yet two years to go (as you have also observed). > > I can still reach Bill Bradford's personal page when I connect to the server > > by its IPv4 address at: . > > Thanks to John's quick thinking, it's now possible to hot wire things so that > you can get to sunhelp.org, et al. > > The hot wiring that I did seems to have been sufficient to allow email to flow > to sunhelp.org. I've since sent a message to a few people inquiring about the > current state of the ongoing rescue operation. > > The last I knew, some of Bill's co-workers were going to take things over. > > If anyone cares to similarly hot wire things on their end, I configured my > recursive DNS servers to forward Bill's domains to John K.'s DNS server > (192.80.49.4). I also configured my email server to route sunhelp.org > directly to ohno.mrbill.net. I suppose the list server relies on the same nameservers in a way that prevents e-mail distribution from happening. I have since resubmitted the same message manually to sunhelp.org's SMTP receiver (the original message is still in the outgoing mail queue: smtp/sunhelp.org: B/W/23993316: (196 tries, expires in 2d17h) smtp; 466 (No DNS response for host: sunhelp.org; h_errno=0) ) to see what happens and got a DSN ack even, but the message did not get through. So local hot wiring of name resolution (which I suppose could be as easy as adding a /etc/hosts entry rather than going through the hoops of setting up a manipulated name server) might be good enough to get at the web pages, but not to get the list going. Maciej From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Oct 14 21:18:18 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 20:18:18 -0600 Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: References: <9f76fd7a-af00-b0f7-008c-28ca6fe7c974@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6592558b-9f4a-3a1f-30ca-eee5f8fb14aa@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/14/20 8:07 PM, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > Last Mon, Oct 12th. The last message I received from the mailing > list was on Oct 1st. The last message I see (prior to mine) from geeks at sunhelp was last Thursday, October 8th. > so I take it the original domain went down on Oct 11th at ~7am; OTOH > sunhelp.org itself has yet two years to go (as you have also observed). *nod* > I suppose the list server relies on the same nameservers in a way > that prevents e-mail distribution from happening. I don't think so. At least I thought that the hot wiring that I did to my mail server only effected /sending/ of email. The changes I made to the DNS server would have effected /receiving/ of email. I have successfully sent a message to the geeks at sunhelp mailing list /and/ received my copy of said message from said mailing list. > I have since resubmitted the same message manually to sunhelp.org's > SMTP receiver (the original message is still in the outgoing mail > queue: > > smtp/sunhelp.org: B/W/23993316: (196 tries, expires in 2d17h) smtp; > 466 (No DNS response for host: sunhelp.org; h_errno=0) > > ) to see what happens and got a DSN ack even, but the message did > not get through. Were you sending a message to geeks at sunhelp or a different address? I accidentally sent a message to geeks at sunhelp from the wrong address and did receive the DSN from Mailman stating that I wasn't subscribed (with that address) and thus the message was rejected. > So local hot wiring of name resolution (which I suppose could be as > easy as adding a /etc/hosts entry rather than going through the hoops > of setting up a manipulated name server) might be good enough to get > at the web pages, but not to get the list going. Ya ... email tends to be more reliant on DNS. At least unless you explicitly tell it to not use it for specific domains. And that's exactly what I did. I hard (hot) wired email routing so that email for sunhelp.org goes to ohno.mrbill.net, which is resolvable do to my DNS hot wiring (forwarders). You can probably do similar or configure the email routing to go to the IP directly. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 00:54:36 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 14 Oct 2020 22:54:36 -0700 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> <377b438c-eb25-2d3b-e240-38b68c14e1b2@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 2:29 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > I do have a card around here called an RXV21 from Plessy or something > like that, maybe it could talk to an RX01 drive and format the disks? > Several of the 3rd party controllers could low level format disks. For example: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/microTechnology/MXV21_floppyCtlr.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sigmaInformationSystems/SDC-RXV21um_1981.pdf From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Thu Oct 15 02:51:23 2020 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:51:23 +0100 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: We're on version 12.10. Anyone got experience? Live in the North of England? Want a more relaxing challenge? Under the age of 80 and can fog a mirror? Drop me a resume. (: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 21:43, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Al. For those of you not on LisaList I've uploaded the ZIP to > OneDrive: > > https://1drv.ms/u/s!ApXzHz2ZC305hscHvjo3mOu8loaSxw?e=uOFV9G > > The one downside is that while the disks seem to read error-free, it > needs an activation key which I don't have. I have to wonder if the > info on OS/2 Museum is of any use here? > http://www.os2museum.com/wp/tales-from-the-xenix-crypt/ > > On 10/14/20, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/14/20 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> On 10/13/20 6:53 PM, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > >>> Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > >>> 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? > >>> > >> > >> please get these to ray arachelian > >> https://lisalist2.com/index.php/board,1.0.html > >> > > https://lisalist2.com/index.php/topic,118.15.html > > > > > -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Oct 15 03:26:24 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:26:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis wrote: > Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? Interesting, yesterday I got a copy of Informix 2.0 for SINIX (a Siemens XENIX derivate) for the PC-X. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 07:21:06 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:21:06 +0200 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 73, Issue 13 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020 at 22:28, Adam Thornton via cctalk wrote: > > I agree that whether a student learns has much more to do with the student > than what in particular they're studying. > > I quit my undergraduate physics degree when I had a moment of clarity that > even if I managed to squeak through my Partial Differential Equations class > with a C (I did) I'd still be on a trajectory where _solving PDEs was what > I would be doing with my life_. I don't know about that. AIUI very few people continue to work in the field where they studied. In my field, most holders of bachelors' degrees who work in that field do palynology or haematology. IOW, they spend their lives in labs, peering down microscopes, identifying and counting either blood cells (for hospitals) or pollen grains and spores (mainly for oil companies). Neither appealed to me at all, but I learned that to stay in biology, I'd _need_ to do a doctorate. I didn't fancy that at the time (20Y old), nor did I fancy a career of lecturing uninterested undergrads and applying for grants. So I left. Sounds like you changed disciplines instead? It's good to have that option. In the England, Wales & NI in the '80s, you only got 3Y grant for a bachelors -- I guess 4 in Scotland, where a 1Y foundation is mandatory. So if you change your field of study and restart, you have to pay your own way for the extra time, which was not doable for most people. Result: a strong incentive to either stay the course, or drop out completely. Since now there are no grants at all, only loans, I guess it's worse. :-( > My undergrad degree is in Ancient Mediterranean Civilizations. My MA is in > History (but, hey, the History of Computing). I dropped out of the Ph.D. > program I was in for a variety of reasons, to be honest crushing depression > probably chief among them, but also because I was a fairly decent > practitioner, and I had more fun playing with computers than I did writing > stories about people who'd played with computers a couple generations > before I had. It being the late 90s, my job prospects were decidedly > better on the Not A Professional Historian side of the fence. I can see that! But hey, you beat me -- you got a Master's. I was battling depression for the 2nd half of my degree too, but I didn't know it. > That was 22-ish years ago. I'd been making beer money all through college > and grad school with IT jobs, and I've stayed in IT-related fields ever > since. Consulting, systems administration and engineering, these days > software development-but-also-devops. My lack of appropriate degrees > probably only didn't hurt because I started a not-unsuccessful consulting > business with my mentor after I quit grad school, and by the time I was > ready to move on from that, I had enough years of broadly varied experience > under my belt that it didn't really matter. Yup. Broadly what I did, too. I look upon it as turning my hobby into my career. I never found the irrelevance of my degree a hindrance, but those were different times. > But that's tangential. The actual point was: the fuzzy stuff is only > contemptible if you've got Physicists' Disease. History is hard, and it > has a lot more in common with debugging that is obvious at first glance. > In both cases you are presented with "Here's what happened," and it's your > job to figure out "why?" Fascinating insight -- thanks for that! In both cases, the ability to break the end-state > The thing with debugging is that you usually are afforded > the opportunity the repeat the experiment while changing parameters. With > history, you're not so lucky You might enjoy the novels of Connie Willis. :-) > Nevertheless, a degree--and particularly an advanced one--is indeed much > more about the discipline to put your head down and swallow what's put in > front of you than about smarts. Definitely. > I was told a couple of decades ago I'd regret not having stuck it out for > my Ph.D. I'm still waiting for that regret to kick in; in the meantime, > many others have come and gone. :-D Thanks for a very interesting and engaging response! -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Oct 15 08:26:25 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 09:26:25 -0400 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/15/20 3:51 AM, John Many Jars via cctalk wrote: > We're on version 12.10. Anyone got experience? Depends on your definition of experience. I last used Informix on XENIX on the TRS-80 Model 16 in the early 80's. :-) It was quite different from the Univac 1100 running DMS-11 that was the main DB there. bill From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Oct 15 11:55:36 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 12:55:36 -0400 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> Like most of us, as a result of COVID, I've been mostly stuck at home. Consequently, I've been going through and organizing a lot of boxes of old stuff that just accumulated and I did not consider to be part of my vintage computing collection. However, I have noticed (and chuckled over) the fact that others are collecting computers and software that I "just used". Anyway, I'm finding stuff that I think others may appreciate more than I and I'm wondering about its value. First, I have what I believe is a pretty early AOL CD and I understand that it may be collectable. It includes the original silver, blue and red cardboard sleeve that reads (in part): America Online CD-ROM! IT'S NEW! IT'S FREE! Now with World Wide Web Browser! Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Most of what I find with Google seems to be related to a boom about five years ago. I have also found boxes full of other software, along with their original packaging. Original DOOM, original Lemmings, Wing Commander, Wing Commander II, Falcon, several old Microsoft Flight Sims, etc., etc. Thanks, Bill Sudbrink -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Oct 15 12:25:38 2020 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:25:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> from William Sudbrink via cctalk at "Oct 15, 20 12:55:36 pm" Message-ID: <202010151725.09FHPc0e36175958@floodgap.com> Maybe it's just me, but I've found the AOL *floppies* more interesting as artifacts, especially with the earlier PC GEOS-based client. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication. -- da Vinci --------------------- From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 15 12:47:27 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 10:47:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > First, I have what I believe is a pretty early AOL CD and I understand that > > it may be collectable. It includes the original silver, blue and red > cardboard > The Internet Archive may be interested in that. There's an AOL CD collection there. > I have also found boxes full of other software, along with their original > packaging. > I collect developer tools, so if you've got any of that stuff I'd be interested! Thanks! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 13:06:16 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 11:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: > First, I have what I believe is a pretty early AOL CD and I understand that > it may be collectable. It includes the original silver, blue and red > cardboard https://archive.org/stream/Galaxy_v22n02_1963-12#page/n43/mode/1up "The Big Pat Boom" by Damon Knight Yes, anything COULD be collectible. For a while, AOHell was the cheap source for diskettes, . . . But, what, other than rarity, can you use an AOHell CD for? I made a pizza cutter out of one to present as an award to one of our instructors, but, it didn't really work very well. For a while, AOHell used big flat tins for mailing; one of those worked well for holding dog treats, and could potentially be useful for many other things, such as stamps, mailing 4x5 negatives, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rp at servium.ch Thu Oct 15 13:24:13 2020 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 11:24:13 -0700 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 1:26 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, 13 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis wrote: > > Just wanted to let you all know that I've found a copy of Informix > > 3.11 for SCO XENIX on the Lisa 2... anyone interested? > > Interesting, yesterday I got a copy of Informix 2.0 for SINIX (a Siemens > XENIX derivate) for the PC-X. > Can I get a copy of that? I have a PC-X ;) > Christian > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 15 15:24:00 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:24:00 -0600 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 10/15/20 12:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > But, what, other than rarity, can you use an AOHell CD for? I know someone that's working on standing up a private version of Prodigy. I would not be surprised if someone else is trying to do similar with AOL. I'd suggest uploading things to Internet Archive, if they are of a version that's not yet represented. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From 821 at 128.ca Thu Oct 15 15:32:50 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 20:32:50 +0000 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <5F077135-0585-4B6C-8358-0686D19692FC@128.ca> Link for the prodigy work please? Seems interesting.. thanks k. > On 15 Oct 2020, at 22:24, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/15/20 12:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> But, what, other than rarity, can you use an AOHell CD for? > > I know someone that's working on standing up a private version of Prodigy. > > I would not be surprised if someone else is trying to do similar with AOL. > > I'd suggest uploading things to Internet Archive, if they are of a version that's not yet represented. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu Oct 15 15:36:40 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:36:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 10/15/20 12:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> But, what, other than rarity, can you use an AOHell CD for? > > I know someone that's working on standing up a private version of Prodigy. > Now that would be insanely cool. > I would not be surprised if someone else is trying to do similar with AOL. > A CompuServe clone would be interesting too. I wonder if anyone ever saved the message and file areas before the trashed it all. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 15:41:11 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 13:41:11 -0700 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:13 PM jim stephens via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I agree. Most devices are expected to be heated briefly to soldering > temperatures, not heat soaked at that. > > Temperature in this case is much different than heat. The designers of > the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the > solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is > exposed to. > > On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have > been assembled then. Even with current radiant oven techniques, the > parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure. They do > that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open > circuit failures happening. > > If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup > time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes. Unless there's > physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they > take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time > before they attack. > > I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't > happen quickly. Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings > burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby > structures. You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in > most cases. Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for > quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires, > and take care of nearby property. > > thanks > jim > Well, we'll see how bad these things really are. The idiot I am, I struck what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned. What can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. A friend of mine went out and ot a number of decent high-res pictures of the units. The backplanes/wirewrap don't appear to be physically damaged, and the boards inside look pretty decent, though I'm not holding my breath. (I was particularly surprised that none of the pot-metal card stiffeners were warped or bent due to the heat, even near the front on the 11/45 where it's clear most of the heat was present.) I do have a friend with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though was that the 11/70 has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool, assuming anything in there can be made to work again). I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks that'll work fine after some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan if repair turns out to be impossible. - Josh From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 15 15:47:58 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:47:58 -0600 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <5F077135-0585-4B6C-8358-0686D19692FC@128.ca> References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5F077135-0585-4B6C-8358-0686D19692FC@128.ca> Message-ID: On 10/15/20 2:32 PM, Kevin Lee wrote: > Link for the prodigy work please? Seems interesting.. Sorry, I don't have a link per say. A co-worker is doing some of this. I think he knows others who are working on similar work. Please email me directly (as a reminder) if you want me to inquire if he has any public information. > thanks Sorry I don't have a better answer. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Thu Oct 15 15:53:36 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 16:53:36 -0400 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <003c01d6a335$40c58910$c2509b30$@verizon.net> geneb wrote: > I collect developer tools, so if you've got any of that stuff I'd be > interested! Thanks! Ah, then it's getting to be worth my while to inventory this stuff. I'm pretty sure there's a stack of old MS Developer Network CDs in there. Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 15 16:33:25 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 14:33:25 -0700 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? Message-ID: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> Hello,Is anyone else having trouble accessing their FTP/Web space on ClassicCmp? I can still access HTML and files i have uploaded but not FTP in for new files. Thanks.-Ali From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Oct 15 16:41:33 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:41:33 +0000 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? In-Reply-To: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: I had no problem as of about 930pm last night. http://www.classiccmp.org/cini Long Island S100 User?s Group Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali via cctalk Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2020 5:33:25 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? Hello,Is anyone else having trouble accessing their FTP/Web space on ClassicCmp? I can still access HTML and files i have uploaded but not FTP in for new files. Thanks.-Ali From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Oct 15 17:12:36 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 23:12:36 +0100 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? In-Reply-To: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <8ce04890-4567-eb75-fe0c-5bfb86674a6e@ntlworld.com> On 15/10/2020 22:33, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Hello,Is anyone else having trouble accessing their FTP/Web space on ClassicCmp? I can still access HTML and files i have uploaded but not FTP in for new files. Thanks.-Ali Isn't there talk that Chrome is dropping FTP support entirely? So if you are using chrome to access the FTP area, maybe that's it? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Oct 15 17:45:35 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:45:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? In-Reply-To: <8ce04890-4567-eb75-fe0c-5bfb86674a6e@ntlworld.com> References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> <8ce04890-4567-eb75-fe0c-5bfb86674a6e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1668775045.20761.1602801935025@email.ionos.com> > On 10/15/2020 5:12 PM Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > On 15/10/2020 22:33, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > Hello,Is anyone else having trouble accessing their FTP/Web space on ClassicCmp? I can still access HTML and files i have uploaded but not FTP in for new files. Thanks.-Ali > Isn't there talk that Chrome is dropping FTP support entirely? So if you > are using chrome to access the FTP area, maybe that's it? > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com Seems so: https://www.chromestatus.com/feature/6246151319715840#:~:text=The%20current%20FTP%20implementation%20in,available%20on%20all%20affected%20platforms. Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with// " --?https://isocpp.org From lproven at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 17:52:46 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 00:52:46 +0200 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <9f398b7e-a9de-237e-ec86-4c10fcd20ea1@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <5F077135-0585-4B6C-8358-0686D19692FC@128.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 22:48, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/15/20 2:32 PM, Kevin Lee wrote: > > Link for the prodigy work please? Seems interesting.. > > Sorry, I don't have a link per say. That's _per se_, BTW. Latin. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/per_se -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 15 17:53:39 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:53:39 -0700 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? In-Reply-To: References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <000301d6a346$06922e90$13b68bb0$@net> >I had no problem as of about 930pm last night. >http://www.classiccmp.org/cini >Long Island S100 User's Group Thanks. Maybe it sorted itself out. I will try it again tonight. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Oct 15 17:53:39 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:53:39 -0700 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? In-Reply-To: <8ce04890-4567-eb75-fe0c-5bfb86674a6e@ntlworld.com> References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> <8ce04890-4567-eb75-fe0c-5bfb86674a6e@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <000401d6a346$06eb9930$14c2cb90$@net> > Isn't there talk that Chrome is dropping FTP support entirely? So if > you > are using chrome to access the FTP area, maybe that's it? > > > Antonio I was actually trying to access with a "real" FTP client: CuteFTP. It has worked just fine before but not earlier this week. I sent a message to Jay w/ the error messages. -Ali From seanellis9 at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 08:29:07 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 08:29:07 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card Message-ID: Hey all, I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of RAM. Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Thu Oct 15 15:45:21 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 15:45:21 -0500 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9f349d53-c310-6184-35c7-11d130831033@figureeightbrewing.com> On 10/15/20 3:41 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 8:13 PM jim stephens via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I agree. Most devices are expected to be heated briefly to soldering >> temperatures, not heat soaked at that. >> >> Temperature in this case is much different than heat. The designers of >> the devices must take into account what temperature is require to do the >> solder assembly function, and minimize the amount of heat the device is >> exposed to. >> >> On wave soldering machines the heat was quite low, and these would have >> been assembled then. Even with current radiant oven techniques, the >> parts would fall off if there was an extended heat exposure. They do >> that often enough now with heating problems with devices, with open >> circuit failures happening. >> >> If you're lucky and have a quick fire department response, the setup >> time on the equipment is at least 4 or 5 minutes. Unless there's >> physical danger and the building involved may have people trapped, they >> take time to assess the fire, the propagation and there's more time >> before they attack. >> >> I've seen a couple of events and a couple of full exercises, it doesn't >> happen quickly. Fire departments are sadly known for letting buildings >> burn into the basement if it saves life or property of other nearby >> structures. You'd be lucky to get this out of a burned out building in >> most cases. Once the fire is knocked down the heat will be present for >> quite some time afterwards, as they let it cool and clear flash fires, >> and take care of nearby property. >> >> thanks >> jim >> > > Well, we'll see how bad these things really are. The idiot I am, I struck > what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be > picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned. What > can I say, I'm a glutton for punishment. > > A friend of mine went out and ot a number of decent high-res pictures of > the units. The backplanes/wirewrap don't appear to be physically damaged, > and the boards inside look pretty decent, though I'm not holding my > breath. (I was particularly surprised that none of the pot-metal card > stiffeners were warped or bent due to the heat, even near the front on the > 11/45 where it's clear most of the heat was present.) I do have a friend > with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though was that the 11/70 > has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool, > assuming anything in there can be made to work again). > > I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks that'll work fine after > some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan > if repair turns out to be impossible. > > - Josh Awesome news that someone is going to try to salvage the machines! Best of luck! --tom From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Oct 15 18:55:53 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:55:53 -0400 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> Well, it looks like one of those memory/multi-IO/clock boards like the AST RAMPACK+. I would take a look at this site (which you might already know): https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/memory-cards/index.html When I was looking for jumpers, etc., for both the AboveBoard AT and BOCARAM I have, I started here. Maybe if you browse the links, something will pop-up. I know that these boards often have special drivers for expanded memory; extended memory should just "show up". I would hope that the other ports/devices (clock, parallel, serial and game) are at standard PC addresses. Rich ?On 10/15/20, 6:59 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Sean Ellis via cctalk" wrote: Hey all, I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of RAM. Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 19:06:17 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:06:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of > a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned > up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of > RAM. > Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely > anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the > RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be > 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. > Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the > other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. > https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg > https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 19:28:27 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:28:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> References: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > Well, it looks like one of those memory/multi-IO/clock boards like the AST RAMPACK+. I would take a look at this site (which you might already know): > https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/memory-cards/index.html > When I was looking for jumpers, etc., for both the AboveBoard AT and BOCARAM I have, I started here. Maybe if you browse the links, something will pop-up. I know that these boards often have special drivers for expanded memory; extended memory should just "show up". I would hope that the other ports/devices (clock, parallel, serial and game) are at standard PC addresses. For an 8 bit multi-function card of that era, there would be hard switches for memory starting address (NO "Extended" nor "Expanded" RAM), and, since the 5150 supported multiple parallel and serial ports, switches for identifying which ones of those they would be. If you plug it into a 256K PC, with no serial and parallel, . . . \ The RAM is PROBABLY set to start at 256K. If there are no other serial and parallel ports, then various diagnostic programs will tell you whether the parallel is LPT1, LPT2, ... and the serial as COM1, COM2, ... -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 19:34:58 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:34:58 -0700 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: > > I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of > > a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned > > up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of > > RAM. > > Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely > > anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the > > RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be > > 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. > > Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the > > other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. > > https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg > > https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png > > It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. > But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. > Isn't the 24-pin DIP part MM58167? shown in the images referenced above a RTC chip? > From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Oct 15 19:35:09 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 20:35:09 -0400 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> Message-ID: <02584A90-B4F8-4B8C-8DAC-AADB3E149DBC@verizon.net> Good point, Fred. My frame of reference was the AT, which is the machine for which I had to hunt down the software. ?On 10/15/20, 8:28 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > Well, it looks like one of those memory/multi-IO/clock boards like the AST RAMPACK+. I would take a look at this site (which you might already know): > https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/memory-cards/index.html > When I was looking for jumpers, etc., for both the AboveBoard AT and BOCARAM I have, I started here. Maybe if you browse the links, something will pop-up. I know that these boards often have special drivers for expanded memory; extended memory should just "show up". I would hope that the other ports/devices (clock, parallel, serial and game) are at standard PC addresses. For an 8 bit multi-function card of that era, there would be hard switches for memory starting address (NO "Extended" nor "Expanded" RAM), and, since the 5150 supported multiple parallel and serial ports, switches for identifying which ones of those they would be. If you plug it into a 256K PC, with no serial and parallel, . . . \ The RAM is PROBABLY set to start at 256K. If there are no other serial and parallel ports, then various diagnostic programs will tell you whether the parallel is LPT1, LPT2, ... and the serial as COM1, COM2, ... -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 20:01:05 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 21:01:05 -0400 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 4:41 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > ...I struck > what I consider to be a reasonable deal for the 11/70 and 11/45 and I'll be > picking them up in November on a trip to SF I already had planned. That's handy. > What sold me though was that the 11/70 > has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed That's a board set that I've always wanted for mine, but they aren't exactly sitting on every shelf. I just have the massive boxes full of amps and amps of 4116 DRAMs. > I figure worst case, I get a couple of DEC racks that'll work fine after > some sanding and repainting, and maybe I can send the chassis off to Ethan > if repair turns out to be impossible. :-) Cheers, -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Oct 15 20:02:16 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 18:02:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >>> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg >>> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png >> It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. >> But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Isn't the 24-pin DIP part MM58167? shown in the images referenced above a > RTC chip? Which would make it VERY similar, but not direct copy of the ST Six-pack (the AST uses a coin cell battery, and many parts are slightly moved around. Q: What are the SIX functions of the AST Six-Pack? A: RAM serial parallel joystick Q: That's FOUR, not SIX A: RAMDISK, Print Spooler. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Oct 15 20:10:40 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 19:10:40 -0600 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: <003c01d6a335$40c58910$c2509b30$@verizon.net> References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <003c01d6a335$40c58910$c2509b30$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 10/15/20 2:53 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > Ah, then it's getting to be worth my while to inventory this stuff. I'd bet there's interest in at least a list of titles / dates / versions. > I'm pretty sure there's a stack of old MS Developer Network CDs > in there. I'm interested in some of the old OS & Server Apps that were in many of thee MSDN CD sets. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Oct 15 20:13:24 2020 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 20:13:24 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: looks simlar to a card used in a ge workmaster for ge faunic plc stuff On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 8:09 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >>> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg > >>> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png > >> It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. > >> But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. > On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > Isn't the 24-pin DIP part MM58167? shown in the images referenced above a > > RTC chip? > > Which would make it VERY similar, but not direct copy of the ST Six-pack > (the AST uses a coin cell battery, and many parts are slightly moved > around. > > Q: What are the SIX functions of the AST Six-Pack? > A: RAM > serial > parallel > joystick > Q: That's FOUR, not SIX > A: RAMDISK, Print Spooler. > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 15 21:52:45 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 22:52:45 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <22016034-6eec-8a5f-2565-90b217882e66@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, with the PDT and the RX02's out of the way I'm running down to the wire on fixing stuff before I tackle the 8/L's. Next up is the 11/24, this is one of the 5.25 inch rack mounts with a CPU, KT24, and no memory. First question: Will ODT respond at all with no memory on the Unibus? Second question: Can a 128kw memory board from an 11/34 work in an 11/24? Or do I need one of the 11/44 boards to make it go? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Oct 16 02:01:13 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:01:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, it was written > Can I get a copy of that? I have a PC-X ;) It can be found on our FTP server: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/siemens/pc-x Christian From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 16 02:02:20 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:02:20 +1000 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? Message-ID: I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google newspapers and found an announcement and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by Control Data in 1967 and touted as "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS perhaps and would like to know a bit more about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 Special Miniature Computer' and that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? Steve. From john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net Fri Oct 16 03:12:44 2020 From: john at yoyodyne-propulsion.net (John Many Jars) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 09:12:44 +0100 Subject: Informix for SCO XENIX In-Reply-To: References: <89fd78e4-cc0d-b61a-5dfc-f6e2868e6efd@bitsavers.org> <5a058cc9-f26f-d1c3-2eca-bea838fa6084@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:26, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Depends on your definition of experience. I last used Informix > on XENIX on the TRS-80 Model 16 in the early 80's. :-) > It was quite different from the Univac 1100 running DMS-11 that > was the main DB there. > > That's more experience than I've got coming in the door... (: I can kind of do the job in the meantime, after a fashion. I got out of programming 20 years ago (as a job) because I'm not so great at it and it's harder than saying "Did you try turning it off and then on again". -- Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems: "The Future Begins Tomorrow" Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net -------- "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift From rice43 at btinternet.com Fri Oct 16 04:23:01 2020 From: rice43 at btinternet.com (rice43) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 10:23:01 +0100 (BST) Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> ------ Original Message ------ From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google newspapers and found an announcement and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by Control Data in 1967 and touted as "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS perhaps and would like to know a bit more about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 Special Miniature Computer' and that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? Steve. The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on the article you linked, that it was primarily used for ballistics calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, and details would be classified. With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit it's usefulness in general applications. I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with a very limited amount of core memory. https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Oct 16 06:15:39 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:15:39 +0200 Subject: FIRE SALE! In-Reply-To: References: <36043e3a-b28c-7f03-766a-5705546c5c70@bitsavers.org> <9e9d4e31-86f2-cd99-c9f8-6c9bafaca8a6@jwsss.com> <51cb829d-7fd1-0254-42a4-900606d5dbe0@jwsss.com> <8de48f65-f71c-b3fa-7392-28c1d205f581@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20201016111538.3exq722e4odspyfb@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 01:41:11PM -0700, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > with a spare set of 11/70 boards. What sold me though was that the 11/70 > has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool, > assuming anything in there can be made to work again). Lucky bastard :) I hope those boards i salvagable. The PDP-11/70 that we run at update (http://magica.update.uu.se/) has seen it's fair share of trouble. Most often the PSU fails but after that it is memory and cache that has been causing the most issues. Regards, Pontus. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Oct 16 06:46:41 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:46:41 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> References: <646902D3-F856-4356-974A-D0311434BC77@verizon.net> Message-ID: <1238155338.50303.1602848801057@email.ionos.com> > On 10/15/2020 6:55 PM Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > > > Well, it looks like one of those memory/multi-IO/clock boards like the AST RAMPACK+. I would take a look at this site (which you might already know): > > https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/memory-cards/index.html > > When I was looking for jumpers, etc., for both the AboveBoard AT and BOCARAM I have, I started here. Maybe if you browse the links, something will pop-up. I know that these boards often have special drivers for expanded memory; extended memory should just "show up". I would hope that the other ports/devices (clock, parallel, serial and game) are at standard PC addresses. > > > Rich > > On 10/15/20, 6:59 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Sean Ellis via cctalk" wrote: > > Hey all, > > I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of > a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned > up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of > RAM. > In the mid 80s I was the service department of a pretty busy mom and pop computer store. I installed a LOT of boards like that as well as many others. They were mostly generic and would come with all sorts of brand names. What I found was that if two boards from different suppliers and different brand names looked identical, they most likely were. I would often see the exact same board sold in various ways, from generic no-name to well known brand names with maybe 3 to 1 price variation, but the boards were exactly the same. So, having said that, if you find one that looks identical, it probably is. But as someone (Fred?) mentioned, they are pretty generic as far as memory and printer/com ports go. Typically the only difference was the clock since that was not "standard" on the PC and PC/XT. There were quite a few device drivers for the clocks. Sometimes, but not always, a driver for one board that used the same chip would work on another if they were located at the same I/O address. I would look for any board that looks identical, even "brand names", in search of clock info and drivers. HTH, Will From gavin at learn.bio Fri Oct 16 08:04:00 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 08:04:00 -0500 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been required to be the program and the rest of the "system". On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk wrote: > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02 > Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? > I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google > newspapers and found an announcement > and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by > Control Data in 1967 and touted as > "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part > is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. > It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: > https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en > > It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS > perhaps and would like to know a bit more > about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 > Special Miniature Computer' and > that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about > the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs > or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? > Steve. > The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US > Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on > the article you linked, that it was primarily used for ballistics > calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a > military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, > and details would be classified. > With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even > compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited > instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit > it's usefulness in general applications. > I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with > a very limited amount of core memory. > https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/ > From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 16 08:50:02 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 06:50:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <003c01d6a335$40c58910$c2509b30$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm interested in some of the old OS & Server Apps that were in many of thee > MSDN CD sets. > Grant, you might search the IA for them. I know a LOT of the CDs were put online there over the past 18 months or so. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 12:35:28 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:35:28 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <22016034-6eec-8a5f-2565-90b217882e66@alembic.crystel.com> References: <22016034-6eec-8a5f-2565-90b217882e66@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:52 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Next up is the 11/24, > this is one of the 5.25 inch rack mounts with a CPU, KT24, and no memory. > > First question: Will ODT respond at all with no memory on the Unibus? I don't recall. I think so but it's possible it won't. ODT works from my 11/34 with bad RAM, but I've never tried any machine with no RAM. It doesn't help that different models have different implementations of ODT. > Second question: Can a 128kw memory board from an 11/34 work in an > 11/24? Or do I need one of the 11/44 boards to make it go? AFAIK, you should be able to use that 128kw memory board just fine, but I don't recall if they play nice with the KT24 in going over 18-bits. I have a couple of 1MB boards in my 11/24 (they were not cheap in the 80s) which I got after I got a KT24 (all so I could run 2BSD). I'd consult the KT24 technical manual to see how it works, and the 11/24 manual to see what memory cards DEC supported. I don't remember having any particular difficulties with configuring my 11/24 but I wasn't doing any mixing and matching. -ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Oct 16 12:35:39 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 11:35:39 -0600 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... In-Reply-To: References: <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$.ref@verizon.net> <09da01d6a314$0177f340$0467d9c0$@verizon.net> <003c01d6a335$40c58910$c2509b30$@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 10/16/20 7:50 AM, geneb wrote: > Grant, you might search the IA for them.? I know a LOT of the CDs were > put online there over the past 18 months or so. Yep. I've found many. It's just one of those things like pilfering through the pile of CDs (both formats; new digital and old analog) at garage sales / flee markets. You never know what you'll find. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 16 13:11:12 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:11:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > Next up is the 11/24, this is one of the 5.25 inch rack mounts with a > CPU, KT24, and no memory. > First question: Will ODT respond at all with no memory on the Unibus? My _guess_ is probably, since on other KDF11 CPU's, ODT works with no memory, but I haven't confirmed that. My PDP-11/24 chassis (a 5-1/4" BA11-L, like yours) I took apart to get the backplane out, so I could work out how the busses work (see below), and I'd need to put it back together before I could try my -12/24.to confirm it. If you could take some pictures of the insides of your BA11-L, that would be both a help to the re-assemblhy, and ancentive to do so. > Can a 128kw memory board from an 11/34 work in an 11/24? Yes and no. See: https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/24 for more. Note "The top 256 Kbytes of the CPU's address space were devoted to the UNIBUS". So an MS11-L or similar UNIBUS memory can probably be read/written by the CPU, but it won't appear at 0 in the CPU's address space. > Or do I need one of the 11/44 boards to make it go? Whether a KDF11-U will work with no memory at physical 0 is unknown: it would need at least a special bootstrap (since most assume working memory at 0) and a special OS load (ditto). Also, I seem to recall that on the -11/45, with mapping enabled, interrupt vectors are in Kernel D space, so once running, that machine could operate with no working memory at physical 0, but I don't know if KDF11 CPU's use mapped Kernel space for vectors. If you're interested, I can run an test on a KDF11-A and see. Noel From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Oct 16 13:37:35 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:37:35 -0400 Subject: PDP 8/L & 8/I G228 warning Message-ID: <20201016183735.GA25139@hugin3> Noticed in another thread an 8L is upcoming on the persons restoration list. Making separate post so more visible. The G228's have a 20 uF 50V electrolytic capacitor on them. I have had two short. When they short its a race between the trace on the board burning up or the backplane 30 AWG wirewrap wire burning up. One was on an 8/I I was restoring where the backplane wire providing the power burnt up at power on. Wasn't shorted before power on. The other was I saw one G228 had a burnt track while I was washing the cards in an 8/L. I had not applied power at that point so that was old damage. Usage history is unknown. As a minimum I would recommend applying current limited 30V to the capacitor on each card out of the machine before initial power on. Low enough limit may allow the capacitor to reform without shorting. The same part # capacitor is still available for protective replacement. The capacitors don't read shorted before power is applied. Unknown if they will short if the machine is powered on periodically. I've head lots of reports of all the failures in 8/L's. I replaced the one G228 and some bulbs but otherwise the machine was fine. It did need a lot of cleaning and I did do my normal power supply reform and checkout. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 16 13:43:53 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:43:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <20201016184353.58E0F18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > ODT works from my 11/34 with bad RAM, ?? The -11/34 doesn't have 'real' ODT (like the one in the LSI-11's, KDF11's, KDJ11's), which is in microcode). The M9301 and M9312 bootstrap ROM boars contain a console emulator, but it's in macrocode. Noel From cube1 at charter.net Fri Oct 16 14:57:12 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:57:12 -0500 Subject: PDP 8/L & 8/I G228 warning In-Reply-To: <20201016183735.GA25139@hugin3> References: <20201016183735.GA25139@hugin3> Message-ID: <4646db0e-0bd8-ec77-582b-3c19fad96bd2@charter.net> On 10/16/2020 1:37 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote: > Noticed in another thread an 8L is upcoming on the persons restoration > list. Making separate post so more visible. The G228's have a 20 uF 50V > electrolytic capacitor on them. I have had two short. When they short its > a race between the trace on the board burning up or the backplane 30 AWG > wirewrap wire burning up. One was on an 8/I I was restoring where the > backplane wire providing the power burnt up at power on. Wasn't shorted > before power on. The other was I saw one G228 had a burnt track while I was > washing the cards in an 8/L. I had not applied power at that point so that > was old damage. Usage history is unknown. > > As a minimum I would recommend applying current limited 30V to the capacitor > on each card out of the machine before initial power on. Low enough limit may > allow the capacitor to reform without shorting. The same part # capacitor is > still available for protective replacement. The capacitors don't read shorted > before power is applied. Unknown if they will short if the machine is powered > on periodically. > > I've head lots of reports of all the failures in 8/L's. I replaced the > one G228 and some bulbs but otherwise the machine was fine. It did need a lot > of cleaning and I did do my normal power supply reform and checkout. > Thanks for that warning - my 8/L and likely the PDP-12 as well appreciate it. ;) From bdweb at mindspring.com Fri Oct 16 15:21:22 2020 From: bdweb at mindspring.com (Bjoren Davis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 16:21:22 -0400 Subject: looking for advice on cleaning old equipment In-Reply-To: <4646db0e-0bd8-ec77-582b-3c19fad96bd2@charter.net> References: <20201016183735.GA25139@hugin3> <4646db0e-0bd8-ec77-582b-3c19fad96bd2@charter.net> Message-ID: <962677f9-d7f0-5fa2-45f3-f6b07e9a7bf9@mindspring.com> Hello Classicquers, I have some vintage DEC equipment (terminals and small systems) that I need to clean up. I'm looking for advice on how to clean the plastic bits. Specifically, I want to know if anyone has a good solution to preserve labels that are attached to such plastic bits while they're being cleaned, especially labels that can't be removed (e.g., paper labels). In the past I've cut out pieces of Saran wrap just large enough to cover the label and then covered that with painter's masking tape.? Unfortunately it wasn't perfect and some water/soap did get under the tape and reached the label (this is especially problematic if the plastic surface has some texture). I'm hoping for something like a wax or some other kind of material that is easily removed with heat but at room temperature is impervious to water and soap. Does anyone have any ideas, good or otherwise? Thanks! --Bjoren Davis From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Oct 16 16:01:48 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 21:01:48 +0000 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com>, Message-ID: That is way smaller than the AGS. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Gavin Scott via cctalk Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:04 AM To: rice43 ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been required to be the program and the rest of the "system". On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk wrote: > > > ------ Original Message ------ > From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02 > Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? > I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google > newspapers and found an announcement > and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by > Control Data in 1967 and touted as > "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part > is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. > It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: > https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en > > It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS > perhaps and would like to know a bit more > about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 > Special Miniature Computer' and > that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about > the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs > or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? > Steve. > The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US > Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on > the article you linked, that it was primarily used for ballistics > calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a > military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, > and details would be classified. > With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even > compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited > instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit > it's usefulness in general applications. > I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with > a very limited amount of core memory. > https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/ > From w9gb at icloud.com Fri Oct 16 13:15:21 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 13:15:21 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card Message-ID: Sean, Fred, and Glen ? Sorry, late to this ISA card thread. I worked in Tech Support for an Apple/IBM/HP/Novell retail computer dealer, during summers in early 1980s, when in Graduate school. So I saw the ?wide selection? of add-in cards for IBM PC/XT and compatibles. == This is a ?Taiwanese generic 6-Pak? Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card. RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock ! Glen is CORRECT, the National Semiconductor MM58167 is the RTC IC. Texas Instruments bought out National in 2011, data-sheet still available. The ?solder-in? B1 battery has been cutout (open space below/left of MM58167). Replacement battery (likely ~ 3 to 3.6 Volt) can be acquired from Digi-Key. Take measurements and closeup photo of ?B1? Area, to CONFIRM Model and Size. ? My Quick Guess ? Tadiran TL series 1/2 AA with Axial pins, 3.6V High Capacity Cylindrical battery http://www.tadiranbat.com/assets/tll-5902.pdf Tadiran TL-5902/P .... $6.65 https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tadiran-batteries/TL-5902-P/512507 greg, w9gb chicago === Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:34:58 -0700 From: Glen Slick To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: >> I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of >> a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned >> up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of >> RAM. >> Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely >> anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the >> RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be >> 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. >> Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the >> other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. >> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg >> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png > > It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. > But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. Isn't the 24-pin DIP part number MM58167 ,shown in the images referenced above, an RTC chip? From w9gb at icloud.com Fri Oct 16 14:03:41 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:03:41 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW - IF you look at advertisements in the 1985-86 PC magazines, this was typical: PC Network (Mail-Order/Telephone reseller). PC NETWORK SIX-PACK? CLONE with 0K $89.00* Full Six-Pack? Features ?Game Port Standard. Direct Import from Taiwan at a Fabulous Price! == The ?unknown? is whether the AST software utilities, ASTCLOCK and SETCLOCK will work with National/TI clock chip in your Taiwanese multi-function card. Some worked with it, others did NOT. == Jumpers behind the DB-25M serial port will be for Serial Port configuration (IRQ, memory address). Parallel Port will have jumpers for LPT1 or LPT2 (Monographic card installed, add 1). == The 6-switch (DIP) will be ?binary? for RAM installed & starting RAM address (256k?). greg > On Oct 16, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Greg Beat wrote: > > Sean, Fred, and Glen ? > > Sorry, late to this ISA card thread. > I worked in Tech Support for an Apple/IBM/HP/Novell retail computer dealer, > during summers in early 1980s, when in Graduate school. > So I saw the ?wide selection? of add-in cards for IBM PC/XT and compatibles. > == > This is a ?Taiwanese generic 6-Pak? Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card. > RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock ! > > Glen is CORRECT, the National Semiconductor MM58167 is the RTC IC. > Texas Instruments bought out National in 2011, data-sheet still available. > The ?solder-in? B1 battery has been cutout (open space below/left of MM58167). > > Replacement battery (likely ~ 3 to 3.6 Volt) can be acquired from Digi-Key. > Take measurements and closeup photo of ?B1? Area, to CONFIRM Model and Size. > ? > My Quick Guess ? > Tadiran TL series 1/2 AA with Axial pins, 3.6V High Capacity Cylindrical battery > http://www.tadiranbat.com/assets/tll-5902.pdf > Tadiran TL-5902/P .... $6.65 > https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tadiran-batteries/TL-5902-P/512507 > > greg, w9gb > chicago > === > Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:34:58 -0700 > From: Glen Slick > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card > > On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >>>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote: >>> I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of >>> a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned >>> up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of >>> RAM. >>> Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely >>> anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the >>> RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be >>> 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k. >>> Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the >>> other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board. >>> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg >>> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png >> >> It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack. >> But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit. > > Isn't the 24-pin DIP part number MM58167 ,shown in the images referenced above, > an RTC chip? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 16:31:26 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:31:26 -0700 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > Sean, Fred, and Glen ? > This is a ?Taiwanese generic 6-Pak? Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card. > RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock ! Exactly. The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is generic Taiwanese. I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with the same sticker. I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my hellbox to make certain. Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either. FWIW, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Oct 16 16:41:24 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 14:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> References: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> Message-ID: Is "QC OK" the brand name? :-) They made a lot of stuff. Some of their premium stuff was designed by Pat Pending. > On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: >> This is a ?Taiwanese generic 6-Pak? Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card. >> RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock ! On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Exactly. The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is > generic Taiwanese. I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with > the same sticker. I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC > chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my > hellbox to make certain. > Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either. From peter at vanpeborgh.eu Fri Oct 16 14:54:26 2020 From: peter at vanpeborgh.eu (Peter Van Peborgh) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:54:26 +0100 Subject: AOL CD and other old PC software... Message-ID: <023401d6a3f6$27e15750$77a405f0$@vanpeborgh.eu> I have a collection of British magazine CDs and DVDs from the mid-1995ish to 2013ish. They contain tools, programs, etc. I tried 5 and they mounted under Win10 so they should work on old win releases: XP,7,8? Would anyone be interested in acquiring these? Talk to me and we can work out how. peter || | | | | | | | | Peter Van Peborgh 62 St Mary's Rise Writhlington Radstock Somerset BA3 3PD UK 01761 439 234 "Our times are in God's wise and loving hands" || | | | | | | | | From mark at matlockfamily.com Fri Oct 16 17:34:50 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:34:50 -0500 Subject: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA Message-ID: I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having been working on a RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to the ADV11-C that the driver I wrote for the -C works ok, but the -D is DMA capable. It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the CSR, and read buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this board? It is mentioned in the Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide and both RSX and VMS supported it. It was also mentioned in the Dec 92 Real Time Products Technical manual. It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some amount of differences from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen any info on the DMA capability. Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code for testing it? Thanks, Mark From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Oct 16 18:23:09 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 17:23:09 -0600 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is "QC OK" the brand name? :-) > Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next time we can get together... Warner They made a lot of stuff. > Some of their premium stuff was designed by Pat Pending. > > > > On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote: > >> This is a ?Taiwanese generic 6-Pak? Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card. > >> RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock ! > > On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Exactly. The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is > > generic Taiwanese. I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with > > the same sticker. I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC > > chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my > > hellbox to make certain. > > Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either. > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Oct 16 19:32:09 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:32:09 -0400 Subject: Firing up the pdt11 In-Reply-To: References: <5F83A097.9000304@charter.net> <33de43dd-310c-3c92-c3e3-9fb6e5e81562@alembic.crystel.com> <5ad9824b-52b2-4a43-acdc-3aa70fb206c7@alembic.crystel.com> <6da9a799-a0dc-dd79-3a77-d0063ebe77e0@alembic.crystel.com> <88b0517e-01e2-065a-2ee8-40774662d767@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <4a609d4f-e4be-cc9a-ec2d-112f59e95aba@alembic.crystel.com> Assuming people are still interested I'm working on other, lesser issues now that the little thing works. First thought: The interconnections between the CPU board and the IO board/memory boards are weird. Basically it's a plate, insulator, board, very odd spacer that provides interconnection, bottom board, insulator, plate, and the bottom hinge that holds the cpu board above the floppy controller board. These interconnections are very sensitive to torque. Make sure all screws are snugged down and all the bolts on the bottom (6) secure the screws to the bottom hinges. Otherwise torque will cause the interconnection to be intermittent and you'll go crazy trying to troubleshoot. Another odd issue: When I have the top CPU board vertical everything works fine. When I lower it, at about a 20 degree angle all hell breaks loose. The floppies no longer work, and the system drops into ODT. At first I thought it was the ribbon cable but that looks fine. Then I thought it was the sockets having poor solder connections so I reflowed them on the CPU board and the disk board. Still no. At this point I'm thinking it is noise from the CPU board affecting the disk controller board. There is a short of shield made of a layer of plastic paper, then a layer of foil, then another layer of plastic paper that goes between the boards. However it's not grounded, and I think that's part of the problem. Any idea why there would be so much noise, and how to reduce it? All of the ground wires are installed and there are a lot of them in this thing. C From steven at malikoff.com Fri Oct 16 20:01:10 2020 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 11:01:10 +1000 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com>, Message-ID: <430f9cdcc023b4b5ec3fb8df65798888.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > That is way smaller than the AGS. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Gavin Scott via cctalk > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:04 AM > To: rice43 ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? > > Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda > suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been > required to be the program and the rest of the "system". > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> ------ Original Message ------ >> From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02 >> Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? >> I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google >> newspapers and found an announcement >> and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by >> Control Data in 1967 and touted as >> "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part >> is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. >> It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: >> https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C&dat=19670920&printsec=frontpage&hl=en >> >> It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS >> perhaps and would like to know a bit more >> about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 >> Special Miniature Computer' and >> that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about >> the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs >> or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? >> Steve. >> The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US >> Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on >> the article you linked, that it was primarily used for ballistics >> calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a >> military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, >> and details would be classified. >> With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even >> compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited >> instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit >> it's usefulness in general applications. >> I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with >> a very limited amount of core memory. >> https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/ Thanks for the comments everyone. That article, it's a good take on the origins of the minicomputer term. I could well imagine the editors of Datamation, upon hearing CD's term 'miniature computer' shortening it to 'mini-computer' for a snappier title for their 449 article. Also you're probably right about the intended use as a missile controller, the limited instruction set shown would have been adequate for that purpose at the time. I suppose I saw 'aerospace' and thought such a complex (for its physical size) machine would have been the preserve of spaceflight applications. Now this has just got me perusing old issues of Datamation ...some amazing forgotten pieces of technology to be found in there, like the Magnyx 4' x 3' flat panel magnetic non-volatile display from 1969. Wow! From cclist at sydex.com Fri Oct 16 20:46:40 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 18:46:40 -0700 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 10/16/20 4:23 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > >> Is "QC OK" the brand name? :-) >> > > Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next > time we can get together... Rivaled only by "Inspected by No. 8" and "FCC ID" --Chuck From jsw at ieee.org Fri Oct 16 20:00:29 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 20:00:29 -0500 Subject: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <874b3cf0-1024-4ad4-5433-87628ade2bdf@ieee.org> On 10/16/20 5:34 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having been working on a RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to the ADV11-C that the driver I wrote for the -C works ok, but the -D is DMA capable. > > It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the CSR, and read buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this board? It is mentioned in the Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide and both RSX and VMS supported it. It was also mentioned in the Dec 92 Real Time Products Technical manual. > > It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some amount of differences from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen any info on the DMA capability. > > Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code for testing it? > > Thanks, > Mark I just picked a AAV11-D D/A Board for which documentation is also scarce. The general design may be similar.? I should be able to reverse engineer the analog/digital output section for pin-outs. Lacking manuals/source code, if someone has an existing driver or software in binary, I would be willing to disassemble that for its secrets.? Perhaps these boards mimic the methods used by ADAC or Data Translation used for their Qbus products.? Their documentation may also give some insight on how to setup these CSR's. Regards, Jerry From seanellis9 at gmail.com Fri Oct 16 22:08:51 2020 From: seanellis9 at gmail.com (Sean Ellis) Date: Fri, 16 Oct 2020 22:08:51 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card In-Reply-To: References: <1351fc39-b7f8-eff8-9f2e-15a1b1d1b747@sydex.com> Message-ID: Well, thanks for all the help guys - Finally narrowed it down to a JE1078 on Stason: https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/I-L/JAMECO-ELECTRONIC-COMPONENTS-Multi-I-O-card-JE1078.html I can believe this thing was made in Taiwan - I had to repair probably 1/4 of all the joints on the card because they all had gone dry or had holes in the joints. Have you ever seen solder bubble like boiling water? That's how bad the original solder on this card was. It also absolutely stank the whole way through... On 10/16/20, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 10/16/20 4:23 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk >> >> wrote: >> >>> Is "QC OK" the brand name? :-) >>> >> >> Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next >> time we can get together... > > Rivaled only by "Inspected by No. 8" and "FCC ID" > > --Chuck > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 17 11:07:38 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:07:38 -0700 Subject: ISO OSF/1 books Message-ID: <294a850c-3dd5-5585-b84e-5d8a95308127@bitsavers.org> I have a small collection of the Prentice-Hall OSF/1 book series, does anyone have copies they don't need? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 17 11:10:33 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:10:33 -0700 Subject: ISO OSF/1 books In-Reply-To: <294a850c-3dd5-5585-b84e-5d8a95308127@bitsavers.org> References: <294a850c-3dd5-5585-b84e-5d8a95308127@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3bcad749-6522-8ccd-e3d4-130465d4dabc@bitsavers.org> On 10/17/20 9:07 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have a small collection of the Prentice-Hall OSF/1 book series, does anyone have copies they don't need? this is to fill in some holes in http://bitsavers.org/pdf/intel/supercomputer/Paragon From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 13:13:04 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 11:13:04 -0700 Subject: Manuals for Imprimis/Seagate 5" Elite SMD/IPI drives In-Reply-To: <6b34ad11-3716-7f6d-f347-43cc5239698b@bitsavers.org> References: <6b34ad11-3716-7f6d-f347-43cc5239698b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <64C79FCF-FB97-4590-B80A-4EF8F7707BEF@gmail.com> I have a control data binder here: elite disc drives (ipi) reference manuals Is this still of interest? Sent from NeXTMail > On Sep 30, 2020, at 01:49, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 9/29/20 11:03 PM, P Gebhardt wrote: > >> I'd be *very* interested to see docs on bitsavers, too. There are four IPI-2 drives (5-inch) in a SUN enclosure and I never came across any documents for them. >> Cheers, >> Pierre >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- >> http://www.digitalheritage.de > > I see they lowered the price on the 5-600, and it used IPI drives > https://www.ebay.com/itm/264733056848 > Wonder if Cameron needs another Solbourne From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Oct 17 17:20:51 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 15:20:51 -0700 Subject: DEC Edu magazine Message-ID: <3dcf848a-4fc2-3cf8-9930-be50c88f2249@bitsavers.org> Issues 6,7 and 8 are up on eBay now at $20 ea Too much for me and he won't take a lower offer From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 17 21:26:16 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:26:16 -0400 Subject: Configuring an MS11-L for an 11/24 Message-ID: <4adbd419-9158-ca2f-d19e-57581669df03@alembic.crystel.com> So I'm working on this old MS11-L board I have had sitting around forever. M7891 DK. Goal is to use it in my 11/24 with KT24 MMU. I've switched the jumpers so it will run on a +12 supply instead of a +15, and so it will run in an extended Unibus slot as opposed to a normal unibus. However I'm stumped regarding the +5v and +5 BBU supply lines. The problem is the manual says to set the jumper that is above C12 (bottom of board, two capacitors next to each other, pretty easy to spot) so that W3 is in and W7 is out if you just have +5v. On this board, W3 is out, W7 is in, but there are two other jumpers right above them (nothing is labelled on the board). So.... Is it the bottom jumper that is +5 or the bottom and the one above that need to be moved? This might be why this board never worked right, if the memory refresh is expecting power on the BBU line and I don't have that then it's not going to work very much :-) But which jumper is the right one to use? Thanks! Chris From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sat Oct 17 22:12:27 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 23:12:27 -0400 Subject: Configuring an MS11-L for an 11/24 In-Reply-To: <4adbd419-9158-ca2f-d19e-57581669df03@alembic.crystel.com> References: <4adbd419-9158-ca2f-d19e-57581669df03@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <8a4b8d21-6eef-4ff8-2180-937f82eceae3@alembic.crystel.com> And one mistake already: Pulling the 11/24 box out shows the H777 supply in it does supply +15v, so the memory board jumper is configured back to +15. Also I see slots 3-6 only need G727 knuckebusters as DMA is jumpered by default, as is slot 9. With the Rl11 controller in slot 7 and the RX02 controller in slot 8 I should be good. Still will need to find a 9302 terminator somewhere. I wonder if a 930 knucklebuster terminator will work. C On 10/17/2020 10:26 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > So I'm working on this old MS11-L board I have had sitting around > forever. M7891 DK. Goal is to use it in my 11/24 with KT24 MMU. > > I've switched the jumpers so it will run on a +12 supply instead of a > +15, and so it will run in an extended Unibus slot as opposed to a > normal unibus. > > However I'm stumped regarding the +5v and +5 BBU supply lines. The > problem is the manual says to set the jumper that is above C12 (bottom > of board, two capacitors next to each other, pretty easy to spot) so > that W3 is in and W7 is out if you just have +5v. On this board, W3 is > out, W7 is in, but there are two other jumpers right above them (nothing > is labelled on the board). > > So.... > > Is it the bottom jumper that is +5 or the bottom and the one above that > need to be moved? > > This might be why this board never worked right, if the memory refresh > is expecting power on the BBU line and I don't have that then it's not > going to work very much :-) But which jumper is the right one to use? > > Thanks! > Chris From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sat Oct 17 22:14:40 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:14:40 -0500 Subject: S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> Message-ID: <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> Hello all. I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One is a 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated board. Both boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, Serial, 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean Well power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of it. I can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly interested. I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of this to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is interested I have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! From dittman at dittman.net Sat Oct 17 22:19:12 2020 From: dittman at dittman.net (Eric Dittman) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 22:19:12 -0500 Subject: S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> Message-ID: On 10/17/20 10:14 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all. > ??? I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One is a > 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated board. Both > boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, Serial, > 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean Well > power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also > voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of it. I > can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly > interested. > ??? I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of this > to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is interested I > have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad > equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Rich, I'm sorry to hear you may have cancer. I am interested in it depending on the cost of shipping, where are you located? -- Eric Dittman From useddec at gmail.com Sat Oct 17 02:06:25 2020 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 02:06:25 -0500 Subject: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA In-Reply-To: <874b3cf0-1024-4ad4-5433-87628ade2bdf@ieee.org> References: <874b3cf0-1024-4ad4-5433-87628ade2bdf@ieee.org> Message-ID: I think they were made by Data Translation. On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 8:00 PM Jerry Weiss via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 10/16/20 5:34 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > > I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having been > working on a RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to the ADV11-C > that the driver I wrote for the -C works ok, but the -D is DMA capable. > > > > It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the CSR, > and read buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this board? It is > mentioned in the Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide and both RSX and VMS > supported it. It was also mentioned in the Dec 92 Real Time Products > Technical manual. > > > > It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some amount of > differences from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen any info on the DMA > capability. > > > > Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code for > testing it? > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > I just picked a AAV11-D D/A Board for which documentation is also > scarce. The general design may be similar. I should be able to reverse > engineer the analog/digital output section for pin-outs. Lacking > manuals/source code, if someone has an existing driver or software in > binary, I would be willing to disassemble that for its secrets. Perhaps > these boards mimic the methods used by ADAC or Data Translation used for > their Qbus products. Their documentation may also give some insight on > how to setup these CSR's. > > Regards, > Jerry > From jsw at ieee.org Sat Oct 17 09:07:49 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 09:07:49 -0500 Subject: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA In-Reply-To: References: <874b3cf0-1024-4ad4-5433-87628ade2bdf@ieee.org> Message-ID: <35f62500-be28-3572-e9f4-fc783e75c4b7@ieee.org> Thanks, I had wondered if some the earlier ADV-11and AAV-11 boards were just re-branded DTI boards. I have been hoping this is true for the -D variants. The most likely candidates are the DT2784/DT2782 and DT2771. Now if I can just find manuals for these... ??? Jerry On 10/17/20 2:06 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I think they were made by Data Translation. > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 8:00 PM Jerry Weiss via cctech > > wrote: > > On 10/16/20 5:34 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > >? ? ?I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having > been working on a RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to > the ADV11-C that the driver I wrote for the -C works ok, but the > -D is DMA capable. > > > >? ? ? It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the > CSR, and read buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this > board? It is mentioned in the Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide > and both RSX and VMS supported it. It was also mentioned in the > Dec 92 Real Time Products Technical manual. > > > >? ? It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some > amount of differences from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen > any info on the DMA capability. > > > >? ? ?Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code > for testing it? > > > > Thanks, > > Mark > > I just picked a AAV11-D D/A Board for which documentation is also > scarce. The general design may be similar.? I should be able to > reverse > engineer the analog/digital output section for pin-outs. Lacking > manuals/source code, if someone has an existing driver or software in > binary, I would be willing to disassemble that for its secrets.? > Perhaps > these boards mimic the methods used by ADAC or Data Translation > used for > their Qbus products.? Their documentation may also give some > insight on > how to setup these CSR's. > > Regards, > Jerry > From w9gb at icloud.com Sat Oct 17 14:01:41 2020 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 14:01:41 -0500 Subject: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card Message-ID: <5FE8DD20-4634-456D-9D9A-220CAC38DC3C@icloud.com> Sean - You might get lucky, IF Jameco still has documentation & software for the board. I would guess circa 1982-1985 (after IBM XT introduction with 256 kB standard). ? Japan in 1970s and Taiwan in 1980s ... had major production issues with PCB fabrication and assembly (required higher QC in source materials). ?After-sale? (under warranty) Component-level service bench techs ? were frequently heard ?swearing? at the incompetence across the Pacific. ? Thru-hole ?vias? for double-sided boards frequently failed. Solder alloy and Flux formulations (Asia didn?t want to buy Weller or Ersin/Multicore) were especially troublesome. In many instances, the old solder has to be removed (difficult de-soldering due to impurities in Asian solder). These problems continued through 1980s, until the ?bad shops? closed or changed their production operations. ? Using a Quality 63/37 or 60/40 ?RA? solder (like Kester ?44?), resolves most issue, other than copper solder trace failures. greg === From: Sean Ellis To: Chuck Guzis , "ClassicCMP? Subject: Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card Well, thanks for all the help guys - Finally narrowed it down to a JE1078 on Stason: https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/I-L/JAMECO-ELECTRONIC-COMPONENTS-Multi-I-O-card-JE1078.html I can believe this thing was made in Taiwan - I had to repair probably 1/4 of all the joints on the card because they all had gone dry or had holes in the joints. Have you ever seen solder bubble like boiling water? That's how bad the original solder on this card was. It also absolutely stank the whole way through... From bruce at westcut.com Sat Oct 17 22:29:51 2020 From: bruce at westcut.com (bruce at westcut.com) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 21:29:51 -0600 Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> Message-ID: <20201017212951.Horde.kxu7TANfjn7Bqop-DmENVBV@host2013.hostmonster.com> I believe there is a museum specializing in S-100 stuff, Altare in particular s I remember - maybe they would be interested. Cheers! Bruce Quoting "Richard R. Pope" : > Hello all. > I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One > is a 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated > board. Both boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, > FDC, HDC, Serial, 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There > are also 3 Mean Well power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the > +_16VDC. There are also voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus > shipping for all of it. I can provide a full inventory and pictures > for anyone who is truly interested. > I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of > this to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is > interested I have some test equipment, electronic components, and > model railroad equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire > very easily. > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#110929): > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110929 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77630695/803518 > Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3008351/1947349341/xyzzy > [bruce at westcut.com] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Oct 18 00:36:12 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 00:36:12 -0500 Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> Message-ID: <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> Hello all, The S-100 stuff is sold pending payment. I appreciate the interest and help! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/17/2020 10:44 PM, Bruce wrote: > I believe there is an S-100 meuseum - think they specialize in Altare > - but they woul probably be a good home for the stuff > > Cheers! > > Bruce > > Quoting Jeff George : > >> Hi there, I?m sorry to hear about your expected diagnosis, that?s a >> tough >> one. My neighbor Had cancer of the liver last year, he tried the ?Rick >> Simpson oil? treatment along with standard chemo and is cancer free >> today. >> Maybe look into it? >> >> On a selfish note, Im a high school physics teacher in Tn and would >> love to >> find good price on some equipment so that my students could get their >> feet >> wet with some actual good equipment. Scopes, frequency generators, >> vtvm?s, >> dmm?s, etc.. I am a ham radio operator and tinkerer, some skills at >> repairing equipment but not a whole lot. >> >> Please let me know if you have anything appropriate for my students at a >> high school budget. Happy to give you my info so that you can verify my >> employment. >> >> Jeff >> >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:14 PM Richard R. Pope >> >> wrote: >> >>> Hello all. >>> I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One >>> is a >>> 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated board. >>> Both >>> boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, Serial, >>> 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean Well >>> power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also >>> voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of it. I >>> can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly >>> interested. >>> I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of this >>> to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is interested I >>> have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad >>> equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>> rich! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >> Paying Attention, Not a Tutor! >> >> >> > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#110932): > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110932 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77630695/89555 > Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3011123/1140944146/xyzzy > [mechanic_2 at charter.net] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 01:17:27 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 07:17:27 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook Message-ID: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> No affiliation, its been there a while so may be scrapped https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2854584287984635/ you will need a facebook id to contact. Dave From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Oct 18 01:56:36 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 23:56:36 -0700 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook In-Reply-To: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> On 10/17/2020 11:17 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > No affiliation, its been there a while so may be scrapped > > > > https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2854584287984635/ > > > > you will need a facebook id to contact. > > > > Dave Vax 6000-310 Linwood, NC Dat drive visible on the front.? Some manuals, looks like possible CD media and docs, marked Compaq, so not ancient stuff. Main question I had, does this require a console machine to get running?? like the Professional 380 which is badged as "Vax Console"? I can't go get it, just what I noticed.? this was discussed on one of the DEC FB groups, though I suspect everyone here who knows about that has read the posts. thanks Jim From spedraja at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 03:15:06 2020 From: spedraja at gmail.com (Sergio Pedraja) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 10:15:06 +0200 Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> Message-ID: El dom., 18 oct. 2020 a las 7:36, Richard Pope via cctalk (< cctalk at classiccmp.org>) escribi?: > Hello all, > The S-100 stuff is sold pending payment. I appreciate the interest > and help! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > Whatever happens, my best wishes to you from the bottom of my heart. A lot of strength and good luck. Cordiales saludos / Kind Regards. Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations -- *Sergio Pedraja* > On 10/17/2020 10:44 PM, Bruce wrote: > > I believe there is an S-100 meuseum - think they specialize in Altare > > - but they woul probably be a good home for the stuff > > > > Cheers! > > > > Bruce > > > > Quoting Jeff George : > > > >> Hi there, I?m sorry to hear about your expected diagnosis, that?s a > >> tough > >> one. My neighbor Had cancer of the liver last year, he tried the ?Rick > >> Simpson oil? treatment along with standard chemo and is cancer free > >> today. > >> Maybe look into it? > >> > >> On a selfish note, Im a high school physics teacher in Tn and would > >> love to > >> find good price on some equipment so that my students could get their > >> feet > >> wet with some actual good equipment. Scopes, frequency generators, > >> vtvm?s, > >> dmm?s, etc.. I am a ham radio operator and tinkerer, some skills at > >> repairing equipment but not a whole lot. > >> > >> Please let me know if you have anything appropriate for my students at a > >> high school budget. Happy to give you my info so that you can verify my > >> employment. > >> > >> Jeff > >> > >> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:14 PM Richard R. Pope > >> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> Hello all. > >>> I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One > >>> is a > >>> 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated board. > >>> Both > >>> boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, Serial, > >>> 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean Well > >>> power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also > >>> voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of it. I > >>> can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly > >>> interested. > >>> I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of this > >>> to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is interested I > >>> have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad > >>> equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. > >>> GOD Bless and Thanks, > >>> rich! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >> Paying Attention, Not a Tutor! > >> > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > > View/Reply Online (#110932): > > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110932 > > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77630695/89555 > > Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io > > Unsubscribe: > > > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3011123/1140944146/xyzzy > > [mechanic_2 at charter.net] > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > > > > > > From mcr at martin-reilly.com Sun Oct 18 03:15:47 2020 From: mcr at martin-reilly.com (martin-reilly.com) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 10:15:47 +0200 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook In-Reply-To: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> References: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The 6000s (I worked with a few) are self contained. Just plug in a serial console device (dumb terminal or decwriter or similar. I?d love a 6000 but don?t have space and I?m on the wrong continent. By default they are wired for three phase power, at least in U.K. I understand they can easily be converted to single phase so potentially usable in a domestic environment. > On 18 Oct 2020, at 08:56, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > ? > >> On 10/17/2020 11:17 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> No affiliation, its been there a while so may be scrapped >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2854584287984635/ >> >> >> you will need a facebook id to contact. >> >> >> Dave > Vax 6000-310 > Linwood, NC > Dat drive visible on the front. Some manuals, looks like possible CD media and docs, marked Compaq, so not ancient stuff. > > Main question I had, does this require a console machine to get running? like the Professional 380 which is badged as "Vax Console"? > > I can't go get it, just what I noticed. this was discussed on one of the DEC FB groups, though I suspect everyone here who knows about that has read the posts. > thanks > Jim > From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Oct 18 04:25:43 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:25:43 +0200 Subject: Basf 6104 Assy 8118 jumper named Bx In-Reply-To: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> Hi at all, I was looking for the BASF 6104 drive manual. on internet I find the one related to ASSY 81098 (where the jumpers have the name JJx) https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtni6hk7gqbr5fk/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081098%20jumpe r%20JJx.jpg?dl=0 while instead I am looking for the one related to ASSY 81118 (in which the jumpers have the name Bx) https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc4yhh0r20nqdxp/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081118%20jumpe r%20Bx.jpg?dl=0 Can someone help me? Thanks Enrico - Pisa- ITaly From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Oct 18 05:32:11 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:32:11 +0100 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook In-Reply-To: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 18/10/2020 07:56, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/17/2020 11:17 PM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: >> No affiliation, its been there a while so may be scrapped >> >> >> https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2854584287984635/ >> >> >> you will need a facebook id to contact. >> >> >> Dave > Vax 6000-310 > Linwood, NC > Dat drive visible on the front.? Some manuals, looks like possible CD > media and docs, marked Compaq, so not ancient stuff. That's a TK70, I think. One way you could update the microcode was via that TK70. > > Main question I had, does this require a console machine to get > running?? like the Professional 380 which is badged as "Vax Console"? As long as the CPU boards are in there, then it should just work. There's no separate console processor. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mi at fritscholyt.de Sun Oct 18 10:17:22 2020 From: mi at fritscholyt.de (Michael Fritsch) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 17:17:22 +0200 Subject: Basf 6104 Assy 8118 jumper named Bx In-Reply-To: <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> Message-ID: <53be287c-c8c4-8279-03e2-be8b17105bfe@fritscholyt.de> I sent you the manual, hopefully it will help. Michael Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > Hi at all, > I was looking for the BASF 6104 drive manual. > > on internet I find the one related to ASSY 81098 (where the jumpers have the > name JJx) > https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtni6hk7gqbr5fk/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081098%20jumpe > r%20JJx.jpg?dl=0 > > while instead I am looking for the one related to ASSY 81118 (in which the > jumpers have the name Bx) > https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc4yhh0r20nqdxp/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081118%20jumpe > r%20Bx.jpg?dl=0 > > > Can someone help me? > Thanks > > Enrico - Pisa- ITaly > > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 11:17:09 2020 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 11:17:09 -0500 Subject: Toaster Flyer - proprietary drives? Message-ID: <8f958196-05e2-62c6-a099-975d7dadb8c9@gmail.com> I've been talking to the guy in NYC who has the storage portion of what appears to have been part of a Toaster Flyer setup (I forget who, but someone on the list forwarded details a few months ago) - two 5.25" full-height SCSI drives, a 3.5" SCSI drive, passive ISA backplane, and some form of TBC card (made by DPS). I'm not sure who made the 3.5" drive, but the two FH ones appear to be 9GB Seagate Elites (I'm assuming they were the two video stores, and the 3.5" was for audio). The big question is whether in a Flyer environment the drives run custom microcode or will have been LLFed to something other than a "standard" 512 byte block size - I believe that the Flyer was really pushing the boundaries of what was possible when it was current, and the majority of drives on the market just didn't have the necessary throughput (I see a "Newtek approved" sticker on one of the Seagates). I know that the storage was considered "proprietary", but I don't know if that just means that the filesystem was Flyer-specific (i.e. not AFFS), or if there was more to it than that. cheers Jules From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 18 11:22:59 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 12:22:59 -0400 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook In-Reply-To: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0b586b1c-2029-dc66-397d-da41a05d515a@alembic.crystel.com> God, that brings back memories of the 6210 Vax that the Computer Society had to run the payroll on ROSS financials. When we got rid of it we found it would not fit through the door of the basement computer room and that was yet another reason to renovate the room. Even funnier, when we ripped the door out we found someone had written on the studs "This door installed after we put in the VAX cuz it wouldn't fit"..... Humor is always important in IT. But I do remember the drives were differential SCSI in a 3rd party enclosure that was mounted inside the 6210 box. Did all Vax 6xxx series have the disks in there by default? CZ From gavin at learn.bio Sun Oct 18 12:48:44 2020 From: gavin at learn.bio (Gavin Scott) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 12:48:44 -0500 Subject: Toaster Flyer - proprietary drives? In-Reply-To: <8f958196-05e2-62c6-a099-975d7dadb8c9@gmail.com> References: <8f958196-05e2-62c6-a099-975d7dadb8c9@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 11:17 AM Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > The big question is whether in a Flyer environment the drives run custom > microcode or will have been LLFed to something other than a "standard" 512 > byte block size - I believe that the Flyer was really pushing the > boundaries of what was possible when it was current, and the majority of > drives on the market just didn't have the necessary throughput (I see a > "Newtek approved" sticker on one of the Seagates). I know that the storage > was considered "proprietary", but I don't know if that just means that the > filesystem was Flyer-specific (i.e. not AFFS), or if there was more to it > than that. Have you been through the old Flyer forums at: https://forums.newtek.com/forumdisplay.php/101-Amiga-Video-Toaster-Flyer-FAQ-s/ the FAQ posts and the sub-forums there for the Flyer look like they contain lots of hints at least, like: https://forums.newtek.com/showthread.php/6258-Does-the-Flyer-Work-With-Current-SCSI-Drives "Platforms: 2000 3000 3000T 4000 4000T Yes, the Flyer will work with most current SCSI drives. The Flyer's minimum requirement is for SCSI-2 Fast hard drives, since the Flyer uses SCSI-2 Fast controllers. Current generation drives will negotiate with the host controller to which they are attached, to discover what mode the controller itself uses. The drive will then adjust to operate as though it were just a SCSI-2 Fast hard drive." [...] etc. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Oct 18 15:42:00 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 16:42:00 -0400 Subject: VAX 6000 in Linwood NC on Facebook In-Reply-To: <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 18, 2020 at 2:56 AM jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.facebook.com/marketplace/item/2854584287984635/ > Vax 6000-310 > Linwood, NC > > Main question I had, does this require a console machine to get > running? like the Professional 380 which is badged as "Vax Console"? No. The 6000-series just has a serial console. I've used these in more than one job, but I never had to open them up to fix them - they were way more reliable than the older models I worked on in the 80s and 90s. Nice machines, good amount of horsepower for the era, easy to upgrade... I just live way too far away to consider attempting to get it. It's also overkill for a single-user workstation. ;-) -ethan From enrico.lazzerini at email.it Sun Oct 18 16:20:18 2020 From: enrico.lazzerini at email.it (Enrico email.it) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:20:18 +0200 Subject: R: Basf 6104 Assy 81118 jumper named Bx In-Reply-To: <53be287c-c8c4-8279-03e2-be8b17105bfe@fritscholyt.de> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> <53be287c-c8c4-8279-03e2-be8b17105bfe@fritscholyt.de> Message-ID: Thanks but that manual you sent is of 81098 assy (with JJx jumpers) and I'm looking for 81118 assy (with Bx jumpers). Enrico -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Michael Fritsch via cctalk Inviato: domenica 18 ottobre 2020 17:17 A: Enrico email.it via cctalk Oggetto: Re: Basf 6104 Assy 8118 jumper named Bx I sent you the manual, hopefully it will help. Michael Enrico email.it via cctalk wrote: > Hi at all, > I was looking for the BASF 6104 drive manual. > > on internet I find the one related to ASSY 81098 (where the jumpers have the > name JJx) > https://www.dropbox.com/s/jtni6hk7gqbr5fk/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081098%20jumpe > r%20JJx.jpg?dl=0 > > while instead I am looking for the one related to ASSY 81118 (in which the > jumpers have the name Bx) > https://www.dropbox.com/s/uc4yhh0r20nqdxp/BASF%206104%20Assy%2081118%20jumpe > r%20Bx.jpg?dl=0 > > > Can someone help me? > Thanks > > Enrico - Pisa- ITaly > > From mechanic_2 at charter.net Sun Oct 18 21:46:43 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 21:46:43 -0500 Subject: FS: S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> Message-ID: <5F8CFE13.2010003@charter.net> Hello all, It looks like the S-100 stuff is available again. Sorry for the confusion! GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/18/2020 12:36 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > The S-100 stuff is sold pending payment. I appreciate the interest > and help! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 10/17/2020 10:44 PM, Bruce wrote: >> I believe there is an S-100 meuseum - think they specialize in Altare >> - but they woul probably be a good home for the stuff >> >> Cheers! >> >> Bruce >> >> Quoting Jeff George : >> >>> Hi there, I?m sorry to hear about your expected diagnosis, that?s a >>> tough >>> one. My neighbor Had cancer of the liver last year, he tried the ?Rick >>> Simpson oil? treatment along with standard chemo and is cancer free >>> today. >>> Maybe look into it? >>> >>> On a selfish note, Im a high school physics teacher in Tn and would >>> love to >>> find good price on some equipment so that my students could get >>> their feet >>> wet with some actual good equipment. Scopes, frequency generators, >>> vtvm?s, >>> dmm?s, etc.. I am a ham radio operator and tinkerer, some skills at >>> repairing equipment but not a whole lot. >>> >>> Please let me know if you have anything appropriate for my students >>> at a >>> high school budget. Happy to give you my info so that you can verify my >>> employment. >>> >>> Jeff >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:14 PM Richard R. Pope >>> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> Hello all. >>>> I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. One >>>> is a >>>> 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated board. >>>> Both >>>> boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, Serial, >>>> 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean >>>> Well >>>> power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also >>>> voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of it. I >>>> can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly >>>> interested. >>>> I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of this >>>> to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is >>>> interested I >>>> have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad >>>> equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. >>>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>>> rich! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> Paying Attention, Not a Tutor! >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >> View/Reply Online (#110932): >> https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110932 >> Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77630695/89555 >> Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io >> Unsubscribe: >> https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3011123/1140944146/xyzzy >> [mechanic_2 at charter.net] >> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >> >> >> > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 18 22:59:41 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 23:59:41 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> Weird. Set all the switches for the 11/24 CPU and Unibus map, and still nothing coming out of the serial port. Figured I would document the settings and see if anyone with an 11/24 can cross-check my settings. Serial: Because my VT52 has a male RS232 end (factory) and the 11/24 has a male RS232 end (factory bulkhead) I am using a female-female null modem cable. This is the same cable I use on the 11/83 CPU and it's known working (along with the VT52). Is this the right type of cable to use? Switches on the CPU are: E135: off,off,off,on,off,off,off,on=9600 baud both signal generators. E124: off,on,on,off (SLU1 use signal gen 1 for tx and rx) E124 5-8: off,on,off,off (no idea what these are) Slots in use are: 1--M7133 CPU 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map 3--M7891 MS11-L memory (configured for extended unibus), green light on, red light off 4,5,6--G727 7-M7982 TS11 tape controller 8 M8256 RX02 controller 9 M9302 terminator and G7273 board When powered on in HALT mode the 11/24 CPU board has the third LED on. Go to RUN stays on. Go to boot, LED goes off. If the unit is turned on with the switch in RUN, the light is out. MS11-L has a green light on at all times. When I forgot the 9302 it had a red light on as well, but plugging that in and restarting cleared the red light on the memory. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 19 03:37:55 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:37:55 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Basf 6104 Assy 8118 jumper named Bx In-Reply-To: <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, "Enrico email.it" wrote: > I was looking for the BASF 6104 drive manual. Did you ask on classiccmp? If yes, I must have overseen that. Because, I have it on our FTP server since a long time ;-) ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/basf/BASF6104_Aug1981.pdf Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Oct 19 03:40:01 2020 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:40:01 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Basf 6104 Assy 8118 jumper named Bx In-Reply-To: <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> References: <10f301d6a516$5a9005e0$0fb011a0$@gmail.com> <2283bb46-23d0-6ca5-6e2e-3e8f7a44e3f7@jwsss.com> <65A2D041416A495883FD70CA2751A472@EnricoPC> Message-ID: On Sun, 18 Oct 2020, "Enrico email.it" wrote: > on internet I find the one related to ASSY 81098 (where the jumpers have the [...] > while instead I am looking for the one related to ASSY 81118 (in which the Sorry for the noise, I have missed the part about the assy number. I don't have the one you are looking for. Christian From mark at matlockfamily.com Sun Oct 18 18:27:36 2020 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sun, 18 Oct 2020 18:27:36 -0500 Subject: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA Message-ID: Paul, Jerry, Thanks for the suggestion to take a look at DataTranslation! Looking in the bitsavers folder for DataTranslation, I found a 239 page July 1986 Data Translation manual for the DT3362 series of A/Ds. There are 23 sub-models of that board but the DT3362-16SE/8DI specifications matches the ADV11-D (A1008). The best part is that chapter 8 of this manual has 5 programming examples, two of which use the DMA capability.With a bit of research (and some luck) I think this will give me the info I need. Thanks again, Mark Date: Sat, 17 Oct 2020 02:06:25 -0500 From: Paul Anderson I think they were made by Data Translation. On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 8:00 PM Jerry Weiss via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I just picked a AAV11-D D/A Board for which documentation is also > scarce. The general design may be similar. I should be able to reverse > engineer the analog/digital output section for pin-outs. Lacking > manuals/source code, if someone has an existing driver or software in > binary, I would be willing to disassemble that for its secrets. Perhaps > these boards mimic the methods used by ADAC or Data Translation used for > their Qbus products. Their documentation may also give some insight on > how to setup these CSR's. > > Regards, > Jerry > From tsg at bonedaddy.net Mon Oct 19 08:03:19 2020 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 09:03:19 -0400 Subject: FS: S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <5F8CFE13.2010003@charter.net> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> <5F8CFE13.2010003@charter.net> Message-ID: Hi Rich, I'm very sorry to hear about your health issues. I'm interested in the S-100 stuff if still available (or it falls through again, just let me know) Thank you, Todd On 10/18/2020 10:46 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: > Hello all, > ??? It looks like the S-100 stuff is available again. Sorry for the > confusion! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 10/18/2020 12:36 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> ??? The S-100 stuff is sold pending payment. I appreciate the >> interest and help! >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> >> On 10/17/2020 10:44 PM, Bruce wrote: >>> I believe there is an S-100 meuseum - think they specialize in Altare >>> - but they woul probably be a good home for the stuff >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> Quoting Jeff George : >>> >>>> Hi there, I?m sorry to hear about your expected diagnosis, that?s a >>>> tough >>>> one. My neighbor Had cancer of the liver last year, he tried the ?Rick >>>> Simpson oil? treatment along with standard chemo and is cancer free >>>> today. >>>> Maybe look into it? >>>> >>>> On a selfish note, Im a high school physics teacher in Tn and would >>>> love to >>>> find good price on some equipment so that my students could get >>>> their feet >>>> wet with some actual good equipment. Scopes, frequency generators, >>>> vtvm?s, >>>> dmm?s, etc.. I am a ham radio operator and tinkerer, some skills at >>>> repairing equipment but not a whole lot. >>>> >>>> Please let me know if you have anything appropriate for my students >>>> at a >>>> high school budget. Happy to give you my info so that you can >>>> verify my >>>> employment. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:14 PM Richard R. Pope >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> ???? I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. >>>>> One is a >>>>> 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated >>>>> board. Both >>>>> boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, >>>>> Serial, >>>>> 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean >>>>> Well >>>>> power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also >>>>> voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of >>>>> it. I >>>>> can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly >>>>> interested. >>>>> ???? I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of >>>>> this >>>>> to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is >>>>> interested I >>>>> have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad >>>>> equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. >>>>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>>>> rich! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Paying Attention, Not a Tutor! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. >>> View/Reply Online (#110932): >>> https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110932 >>> Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77630695/89555 >>> Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io >>> Unsubscribe: >>> https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3011123/1140944146/xyzzy >>> [mechanic_2 at charter.net] >>> -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- >>> >>> >>> >> >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 19 10:27:03 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:27:03 -0700 Subject: 11/84 print set Message-ID: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Oct 19 10:30:13 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:30:13 -0500 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 10/19/2020 10:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 The listing says sold already.? Did you get it? I don't have a PDP-11/84 and likely never will but I'd chip in $50 if you got it. -- John H. Reinhardt From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 10:31:52 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:31:52 -0400 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Same. If you bought it, let us know if we can just paypal yr email addy. C On 10/19/2020 11:30 AM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/2020 10:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 > The listing says sold already.? Did you get it? > > I don't have a PDP-11/84 and likely never will but I'd chip in $50 if > you got it. > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 19 10:33:33 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 08:33:33 -0700 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> On 10/19/20 8:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> The listing says sold already.? Did you get it? yes, I went ahead and got it even though I can't afford to paypal is my normal aek at bitsavers adr From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Oct 19 10:35:26 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:35:26 -0500 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9d17511c-2de9-6e02-504c-4c28f9b18689@thereinhardts.org> On 10/19/2020 10:33 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/20 8:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> The listing says sold already.? Did you get it? > > yes, I went ahead and got it even though I can't afford to > paypal is my normal aek at bitsavers adr > Good deal!? I just sent a Paypal. -- John H. Reinhardt From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 11:51:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 12:51:30 -0400 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Done. I do have these 11/84 boards (memory map, console, and the memory board that doesn't work); it would be interesting to have prints to review. Thanks! CZ On 10/19/2020 11:33 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/20 8:31 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > >>> The listing says sold already.? Did you get it? > > yes, I went ahead and got it even though I can't afford to > paypal is my normal aek at bitsavers adr > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 19 13:22:56 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:22:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > yes, I went ahead and got it even though I can't afford to > paypal is my normal aek at bitsavers adr Done $50 From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 19 13:29:18 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:29:18 -0700 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6886ac10ebbf3c3786d10e74be0eab9d8018df12.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 11:22 -0700, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > yes, I went ahead and got it even though I can't afford to > > paypal is my normal aek at bitsavers adr > > Done $50 > > Me too. TTFN - Guy From amp1ron at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:37:57 2020 From: amp1ron at gmail.com (Ron Pool) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 14:37:57 -0400 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> <061edb22-1104-ee1b-a9aa-65720efbeda0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <588C40C4-FD6B-4E24-80F7-272C954236E6@gmail.com> I PayPal'd Al a bit as well, for this or any other preservation purchase. From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Oct 19 13:39:14 2020 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:39:14 -0700 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Al Kossow wrote: > anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 I don't have a PDP-11/84 and likely never will but I just sent you $150. Bitsavers has saved my bacon multiple times and it's only right that I support you. In about a month I hope to be able to deliver the 7-track tape drive to you. Details later. Alan Frisbie From tom at figureeightbrewing.com Mon Oct 19 10:46:46 2020 From: tom at figureeightbrewing.com (Tom Uban) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:46:46 -0500 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> References: <17b71b85-228b-3cb9-b4d2-c9d0d419eb70@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <95e85d1a-821d-e609-b414-d46d5adc6235@figureeightbrewing.com> On 10/19/20 10:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 I don't have an 11/84, but the bitsavers docs have helped me tremendously over the years. Thank you. Sent $100. --tom From cramcram at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 13:56:31 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:56:31 -0700 Subject: 11/84 print set In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You have a working 7-track drive?? Does it have a sibling? Marc Howard On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 11:39 AM Alan Frisbie via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Al Kossow wrote: > > > anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/303733340900 > > I don't have a PDP-11/84 and likely never will but I just > sent you $150. Bitsavers has saved my bacon multiple times > and it's only right that I support you. > > In about a month I hope to be able to deliver the 7-track > tape drive to you. Details later. > > Alan Frisbie > From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 15:12:35 2020 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:12:35 -0700 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. Message-ID: I spotted this for an auction from the FORMER OYSTER CREEK NUCLEAR GENERATING STATION. Looks like a pair of RL02 with a pdp something in the middle. I can't make out what model it is from the photo. Anyone know? I'm not bidding as it's too far away from me in Los Angeles but someone else might like it. Small stuff usually sells real cheap on this site as the sellers are usually just trying to get rid of it. Also, there's no current bid. I just would not want it to go to a scrapper. https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/bscunited/catalogue-id-united4-10061/lot-9f3350e0-a11b-493d-868b-ac43015bce6d Wayne From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 19 15:48:03 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 13:48:03 -0700 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <832770b5b5106f460f1ccd1c0ad46dccaf9f9fdc.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 13:12 -0700, Wayne Sudol via cctalk wrote: > I spotted this for an auction from the FORMER OYSTER CREEK NUCLEAR > GENERATING STATION. > Looks like a pair of RL02 with a pdp something in the middle. I can't > make out what model it is from the photo. > Anyone know? > > > https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/bscunited/catalogue-id-united4-10061/lot-9f3350e0-a11b-493d-868b-ac43015bce6d > It looks like it's 11/84 from the badge on the front. TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 19 16:05:56 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:05:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/84 print set Message-ID: <20201019210556.15AFC18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > anyone willing to chip in some money to help me pay for this? I sent a chunk too. This is a totally great acquisition: I have a KDJ11-B board that has a bad bus driver chip; I was going to apply an ohmmeter to find the guilty party, but just looking at the prints will be so much easier. I see it also includes MSV11-R prints, which is wonderful, since we don't have prints for those either. Too bad it doesn't include the MSV11-J prints (also missing), since the -R's are rare and the -J's are relatively common. Noel From mechanic_2 at charter.net Mon Oct 19 16:29:27 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:29:27 -0500 Subject: [HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment] FS: S-100 stuff, electronic stuff, model railroad stuff, books and magazines! In-Reply-To: <163F44C539B8CAA3.11847@groups.io> References: <18842.1554349570132357207@groups.io> <10011.1602983407026576875@groups.io> <5F8BB320.6070106@charter.net> <20201017214443.Horde.WxTnzDsrNCWQabl_3zhHsiZ@host2013.hostmonster.com> <5F8BD44C.6050806@charter.net> <163F44C539B8CAA3.11847@groups.io> Message-ID: <5F8E0537.80505@charter.net> Hello all, The S-100 stuff is sold and paid for. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 10/18/2020 9:46 PM, Richard R. Pope wrote: > Hello all, > It looks like the S-100 stuff is available again. Sorry for the > confusion! > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! > > On 10/18/2020 12:36 AM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: >> Hello all, >> The S-100 stuff is sold pending payment. I appreciate the >> interest and help! >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! >> >> On 10/17/2020 10:44 PM, Bruce wrote: >>> I believe there is an S-100 meuseum - think they specialize in Altare >>> - but they woul probably be a good home for the stuff >>> >>> Cheers! >>> >>> Bruce >>> >>> Quoting Jeff George : >>> >>>> Hi there, I?m sorry to hear about your expected diagnosis, that?s a >>>> tough >>>> one. My neighbor Had cancer of the liver last year, he tried the ?Rick >>>> Simpson oil? treatment along with standard chemo and is cancer free >>>> today. >>>> Maybe look into it? >>>> >>>> On a selfish note, Im a high school physics teacher in Tn and would >>>> love to >>>> find good price on some equipment so that my students could get >>>> their feet >>>> wet with some actual good equipment. Scopes, frequency generators, >>>> vtvm?s, >>>> dmm?s, etc.. I am a ham radio operator and tinkerer, some skills at >>>> repairing equipment but not a whole lot. >>>> >>>> Please let me know if you have anything appropriate for my students >>>> at a >>>> high school budget. Happy to give you my info so that you can >>>> verify my >>>> employment. >>>> >>>> Jeff >>>> >>>> On Sat, Oct 17, 2020 at 10:14 PM Richard R. Pope >>>> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Hello all. >>>>> I have 22 S-100 boards for sale. There are two backplanes. >>>>> One is a >>>>> 9 slot bare board and the other is a 19 slot fully populated >>>>> board. Both >>>>> boards have active termination. There are 8080, Z80, FDC, HDC, >>>>> Serial, >>>>> 68030, a Display board, a Front Panel board. There are also 3 Mean >>>>> Well >>>>> power supplies supplying the +9VDC and the +_16VDC. There are also >>>>> voltmeters and amp meters . I want $500 plus shipping for all of >>>>> it. I >>>>> can provide a full inventory and pictures for anyone who is truly >>>>> interested. >>>>> I probably have cancer and if I do I am dying. I want all of >>>>> this >>>>> to go to a good home and not to the landfill. If anyone is >>>>> interested I >>>>> have some test equipment, electronic components, and model railroad >>>>> equipment Please only serious inquires for I tire very easily. >>>>> GOD Bless and Thanks, >>>>> rich! >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>> Paying Attention, Not a Tutor! >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> > > > > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > Groups.io Links: You receive all messages sent to this group. > View/Reply Online (#110958): > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/message/110958 > Mute This Topic: https://groups.io/mt/77650950/89555 > Group Owner: HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment+owner at groups.io > Unsubscribe: > https://groups.io/g/HP-Agilent-Keysight-equipment/leave/3011123/1140944146/xyzzy > [mechanic_2 at charter.net] > -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 16:33:56 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:33:56 -0400 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: <832770b5b5106f460f1ccd1c0ad46dccaf9f9fdc.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <832770b5b5106f460f1ccd1c0ad46dccaf9f9fdc.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Maybe. If so it's a seriously overpowered 11/84 with only a pair of RL02's. Might also be an 11/24. I'll check into it. NJ isn't too far away although I don't think it will fit easily in a Porsche 928. So I'd have to rent a truck as well. Hm.... Anyone else bidding on it? C On 10/19/2020 4:48 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 13:12 -0700, Wayne Sudol via cctalk wrote: >> I spotted this for an auction from the FORMER OYSTER CREEK NUCLEAR >> GENERATING STATION. >> Looks like a pair of RL02 with a pdp something in the middle. I can't >> make out what model it is from the photo. >> Anyone know? >> >> >> > https://www.bidspotter.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/bscunited/catalogue-id-united4-10061/lot-9f3350e0-a11b-493d-868b-ac43015bce6d >> > > It looks like it's 11/84 from the badge on the front. > > TTFN - Guy > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 19 16:45:57 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:45:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. Message-ID: <20201019214557.C5C0218C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor ggs at shiresoft.com > It looks like it's 11/84 from the badge on the front. In a 10-1/2" box. Seen them in the docs (forget the model number), never seen a real one. Noel From blstuart at bellsouth.net Mon Oct 19 16:46:27 2020 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:46:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: References: <832770b5b5106f460f1ccd1c0ad46dccaf9f9fdc.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1639424818.880379.1603143987733@mail.yahoo.com> On Monday, October 19, 2020, 5:34:03 PM EDT, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Maybe. If so it's a seriously overpowered 11/84 with only a pair of > RL02's. Might also be an 11/24. > > I'll check into it. NJ isn't too far away although I don't think it will > fit easily in a Porsche 928. So I'd have to rent a truck as well. Hm.... > > Anyone else bidding on it? I'm definitely considering it.? I'm located in south Jersey so I'm not too far from it.? Though if the bids get up to more than nominal, I expect I'll drop out. I'm sure it won't fit in my Boxster either, and I doubt it'll fit in my wife's CR-V.? So I'd probably rent a van or small truck too.? I moved a VAX 3600 in the same cabinet in U-Haul van, so I at least have an idea what I'm getting myself in for. BLS From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Oct 19 17:10:23 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:10:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > still nothing coming out of the serial port. Figured I would document > the settings and see if anyone with an 11/24 can cross-check my settings. Time to stop trying random things and drop the (metaphorical) Big Hammer. Look at the bus, and see if it's trying to talk to the console (i.e. ODT is running). Alas, I looked at the -11/24 Tech Manual - latest rev here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/dload/EK-11024-TM-003.pdf and it sez (pg. 4-25): "Internal addresses; i.e. serial line unit registers .. There is no external bus cycle performed for an internal address." So you can't look on the UNIBUS. At least we have a set of prints for it: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1124/MP01018_1124schem_Aug80.pdf CPU prints start on pg. 145; the TM will tell you what signals to look for. Noel From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 19 17:11:20 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:11:20 -0700 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: <20201019214557.C5C0218C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201019214557.C5C0218C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8e9455fe3ae257f81b5237a49af73b8c690b4955.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 17:45 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Guy Sotomayor ggs at shiresoft.com > > > It looks like it's 11/84 from the badge on the front. > > In a 10-1/2" box. Seen them in the docs (forget the model number), > never seen > a real one. I had a number of 11/84s in the 10-1/2" box and in the 21" box. Got rid of them all in the last move (along with 3(!) 11/78x VAXen...I was a bit surprised because I thought I had only 2). TTFN - Guy From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 19:20:35 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:20:35 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> On 10/19/2020 6:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Time to stop trying random things and drop the (metaphorical) Big > Hammer. Well, yeah. Although my methods are *not* random, what I have been doing is trying to set the 11/24 and it's peripherals to a known working base state. Unibus can get annoyed at a lot of things (lack of termination, 4 kinds of Unibus (well 5 if you consider the 11/45), and a whole lot of general weirdness. Q-Bus is much simpler, although there is 18 and 22 bit and the weird CD interconnect to watch out for, you don't need a terminator and with very few exceptions (RKV11, RL01 dual controller, very early memory that wanted external refresh) things pretty much work bus-wise. > "Internal addresses; i.e. serial line unit registers .. There is no > external bus cycle performed for an internal address." Yeah, the serial ports I think are emulated-ish on the main board. If I could disable them I could do a normal DL11 and see what I see, but that won't work. Maybe I'll just drag out the 11/05 and get that working first, it's got a nice front panel that doesn't lock up often :-) But if someone has an 11/24 and can cross-check my switch settings to see if I missed something I would appreciate. CZ From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Oct 19 19:25:52 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 17:25:52 -0700 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <192e0dfa8ba4aa3f6d71139807f5564757b0e448.camel@shiresoft.com> On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 20:20 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > won't work. Maybe I'll just drag out the 11/05 and get that working > first, it's got a nice front panel that doesn't lock up often :-) > > The 11/05 was the first 11 that I repaired and got working. You should note that the 11/05's front panel is driven by the uCode of the CPU. It's connection to the CPU is through a "serial" protocol (it's been too long...I think it's just a big shift register) to keep the pin count (e.g. cost) low. TTFN - Guy From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Oct 19 20:09:04 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:09:04 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/20 8:20 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > On 10/19/2020 6:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Time to stop trying random things and drop the (metaphorical) Big > > Hammer. > > Well, yeah. Although my methods are *not* random, what I have been doing > is trying to set the 11/24 and it's peripherals to a known working base > state. Unibus can get annoyed at a lot of things (lack of termination, 4 > kinds of Unibus (well 5 if you consider the 11/45), and a whole lot of > general weirdness. > > Q-Bus is much simpler, although there is 18 and 22 bit and the weird CD > interconnect to watch out for, you don't need a terminator and with very > few exceptions (RKV11, RL01 dual controller, very early memory that > wanted external refresh) things pretty much work bus-wise. > > > "Internal addresses; i.e. serial line unit registers .. There is no > > external bus cycle performed for an internal address." > > Yeah, the serial ports I think are emulated-ish on the main board. If I > could disable them I could do a normal DL11 and see what I see, but that > won't work. Maybe I'll just drag out the 11/05 and get that working > first, it's got a nice front panel that doesn't lock up often :-) > > But if someone has an 11/24 and can cross-check my switch settings to > see if I missed something I would appreciate. > Wish I still had my 11/24. It was my first and I always liked it. bill From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Oct 19 20:13:46 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:13:46 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" Message-ID: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with// " --?https://isocpp.org From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 20:16:53 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:16:53 -0400 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: <8e9455fe3ae257f81b5237a49af73b8c690b4955.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <20201019214557.C5C0218C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8e9455fe3ae257f81b5237a49af73b8c690b4955.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: I have owned a few of these. Gave them to VCFed as a donation. On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 6:11 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 17:45 -0400, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > From: Guy Sotomayor ggs at shiresoft.com > > > > > It looks like it's 11/84 from the badge on the front. > > > > In a 10-1/2" box. Seen them in the docs (forget the model number), > > never seen > > a real one. > > I had a number of 11/84s in the 10-1/2" box and in the 21" box. Got > rid of them all in the last move (along with 3(!) 11/78x VAXen...I was > a bit surprised because I thought I had only 2). > > TTFN - Guy > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Oct 19 20:23:18 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 21:23:18 -0400 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: this has been on ebay for many months On Mon, Oct 19, 2020 at 9:13 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz > > > Will > > > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing > left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de > Saint-Exupery > "The names of global variables should start with// " -- https://isocpp.org > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Oct 19 20:35:57 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:35:57 -0700 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 10/19/20 6:13 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz I've seen that one before. With Mr.Jobs no longer among the quick, I think that some of the mystique has faded by now. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 19 20:53:04 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 18:53:04 -0700 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> > > Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st- > Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer- > and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz > > > Will Seller isn't serious. I've made many good offers up to and including the full retail price of $666 and they have all been turned down... Oh well... -Ali From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 21:47:26 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:47:26 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <192e0dfa8ba4aa3f6d71139807f5564757b0e448.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <20201019221023.B097918C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5bda6844-c104-5141-ac33-9141632f4745@alembic.crystel.com> <192e0dfa8ba4aa3f6d71139807f5564757b0e448.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <89a91074-6173-d8ed-1382-42d326c52da3@alembic.crystel.com> Indeed. I had it running 30 years ago, it was my RX01 floppy pdp11. Unfortunately I think I removed, gave away, or something-ed one of the Plessy core memory boards. Which means I can't just boot it and continue where I left off (I seem to recall it ran Dungeon off RX01's). The 11/05 has memory boards as follows: M930/H214 (begin terminator, core plane) G110 G231 G231 G110 Unibus jumper/H214 (end of line) It does not have the KW11 line time clock or the weird serial port that could be run off the CPU. Instead a normal boring DL11. So 2 MM11-L's for 16kw of memory. Why do I have an extra H216 core board lying around. Anyone got an extra 4k of memory lying around? Hm. I guess I could put my DA11-F Unibus window in there and jumper it so that a 4k window of memory on the 11/24 appears on the 11/05. That could work, unless someone has a spare 4/8kw of core they don't need. The Plessy board is stuck in there tight with no easy way to remove. It says its an 8k*16 PM1105. Crap, it might be jumpered for the last 8k. But that does mean I swapped a core board. You know I might have traded it to MG in return for a pair of Sun386i's for CrystelCom's mail and DNS servers. Maybe if he still has it I can trade it for this 216 core plane if he just wants one on his wall. CZ On 10/19/2020 8:25 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > On Mon, 2020-10-19 at 20:20 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> >> won't work. Maybe I'll just drag out the 11/05 and get that working >> first, it's got a nice front panel that doesn't lock up often :-) >> >> > The 11/05 was the first 11 that I repaired and got working. You should > note that the 11/05's front panel is driven by the uCode of the CPU. > It's connection to the CPU is through a "serial" protocol (it's been > too long...I think it's just a big shift register) to keep the pin > count (e.g. cost) low. > > TTFN - Guy > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 21:50:33 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:50:33 -0400 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> Message-ID: <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> He probably had to pay 5% sales tax on it. That would come out to 699.30, so offer him an even $700 and he'll probably take it. C On 10/19/2020 9:53 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> >> Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st- >> Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer- >> and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz >> >> >> Will > > > Seller isn't serious. I've made many good offers up to and including the full retail price of $666 and they have all been turned down... Oh well... > > -Ali > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 19 21:51:48 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 22:51:48 -0400 Subject: RL02 Disk and maybe pdp11 something at auction. In-Reply-To: <1639424818.880379.1603143987733@mail.yahoo.com> References: <832770b5b5106f460f1ccd1c0ad46dccaf9f9fdc.camel@shiresoft.com> <1639424818.880379.1603143987733@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <95584073-2d00-065f-9548-2a57ddf6d6d0@alembic.crystel.com> > I'm definitely considering it.? I'm located in south > Jersey so I'm not too far from it.? Though if the bids > get up to more than nominal, I expect I'll drop out. Grab it. It will probably fit in the Boxter since you can take off the top, so that's not a problem. Will affect handling somewhat. But I really don't need *another* pdp11 right now so glad it will go to a good home. CZ From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Oct 19 22:05:31 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:05:31 -0700 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> > He probably had to pay 5% sales tax on it. That would come out to > 699.30, so offer him an even $700 and he'll probably take it. > > C > No. Sales tax is paid by the buyer. At least that is how eBay is working in CA. If I buy something for $10 my final price is $11 tax included. eBay then pays the sales tax to the state on behalf of the seller. Sales tax is passed on straight to buyers like anywhere else. -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Oct 19 22:39:18 2020 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 20:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> Message-ID: >> He probably had to pay 5% sales tax on it. That would come out to >> 699.30, so offer him an even $700 and he'll probably take it. On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, Ali via cctalk wrote: > No. Sales tax is paid by the buyer. At least that is how eBay is working in CA. If I buy something for $10 my final price is $11 tax included. eBay then pays the sales tax to the state on behalf of the seller. Sales tax is passed on straight to buyers like anywhere else. I think that Chris' point is that the ORIGINAL total gross amount for the purchase was $699.30 (including the tax) Therefore, it might be a deal breaker whether you also reimburse what he had paid in sales tax. However, this is not the original owner. He got it USED. He probably didn't pay the sales tax, AND, being a used computer, he probably paid less than retail. He got it in Montreal. Was 5% the sales tax rate in Montreal at the time? Also, in your offers, did you include the $1 that he is demanding for shipping? (Although he states that he will not ship it) Keep in mind that it is out of warranty. It is no longer supported. It is slow, without much memory. It doesn't meet current FCC specs (unshielded wood case) The software hasn't been updated in a long time. None of the current retail software will run on it. He probably doesn't even have an anti-virus program on it. It is even starting to be difficult to get diskettes for it. (which isn't too serious, because it has no drives!) It requires an analog composite monitor. Is the IEC power receptacle original equipment? The documentation is "digital copies", instead of the original books. And, he is trying to get MORE THAN RETAIL for it! From guykd at optusnet.com.au Mon Oct 19 23:45:37 2020 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 15:45:37 +1100 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: References: <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20201020154537.0145c068@mail.optusnet.com.au> >https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349 Heh, all very jolly. Thanks everyone for reminding me... of my personal Apple I story. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy At 08:39 PM 19/10/2020 -0700, you wrote: >>> He probably had to pay 5% sales tax on it. That would come out to >>> 699.30, so offer him an even $700 and he'll probably take it. > >On Mon, 19 Oct 2020, Ali via cctalk wrote: >> No. Sales tax is paid by the buyer. At least that is how eBay is working in CA. If I buy something for $10 my final price is $11 tax included. eBay then pays the sales tax to the state on behalf of the seller. Sales tax is passed on straight to buyers like anywhere else. > >I think that Chris' point is that the ORIGINAL total gross amount for the >purchase was $699.30 (including the tax) Therefore, it might be a deal >breaker whether you also reimburse what he had paid in sales tax. >However, this is not the original owner. He got it USED. He probably >didn't pay the sales tax, AND, being a used computer, he probably paid >less than retail. >He got it in Montreal. Was 5% the sales tax rate in Montreal at the time? > >Also, in your offers, did you include the $1 that he is demanding for >shipping? (Although he states that he will not ship it) > > >Keep in mind that it is out of warranty. >It is no longer supported. >It is slow, without much memory. >It doesn't meet current FCC specs (unshielded wood case) >The software hasn't been updated in a long time. >None of the current retail software will run on it. >He probably doesn't even have an anti-virus program on it. >It is even starting to be difficult to get diskettes for it. >(which isn't too serious, because it has no drives!) >It requires an analog composite monitor. >Is the IEC power receptacle original equipment? >The documentation is "digital copies", instead of the original books. > > >And, he is trying to get MORE THAN RETAIL for it! > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Oct 20 01:13:36 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:13:36 -0700 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> <005901d6a683$c07e7d50$417b77f0$@net> <024740ff-3a44-bea9-ffdd-6c45ba2a8367@alembic.crystel.com> <006801d6a68d$e00ac4d0$a0204e70$@net> Message-ID: <006901d6a6a8$264b3d70$72e1b850$@net> > I think that Chris' point is that the ORIGINAL total gross amount for > the > purchase was $699.30 (including the tax) Therefore, it might be a deal > breaker whether you also reimburse what he had paid in sales tax. > However, this is not the original owner. He got it USED. He probably > didn't pay the sales tax, AND, being a used computer, he probably paid > less than retail. > He got it in Montreal. Was 5% the sales tax rate in Montreal at the > time? That was my rational as well. He actually got it for "free" (well as a trade-in for an Apple II for which he charged handsomely I suppose). Also as a retailer he was exempt from sales tax until he resold it. Hence sales tax should not be an issue here at all. > > Also, in your offers, did you include the $1 that he is demanding for > shipping? (Although he states that he will not ship it) He is willing to deliver it and even bring Corey Cohen (maybe a name known to Apple guys? I am not familiar with him) if you pay travel cost. I am wondering what is the cost of travel via mule for two male adults these days? He would of course have to send the system next day air priority as I would not want to get any mule hair on the fine wooden case. > Keep in mind that it is out of warranty. Yes, but eBay is willing to sell me a "square trade" warranty. So I should be all set. > It is no longer supported. See above > It is slow, without much memory. It isn't that bad. 640K is more than enough for anyone. This thing can be expanded to 48K so about 1/13 of that so I should be okay. > It doesn't meet current FCC specs (unshielded wood case) Does this even matter anymore? Used to be you had to worry about interference with your TVs but I run a Class A LJ 5500 printer at home and haven't seen any issues yet... > The software hasn't been updated in a long time. > None of the current retail software will run on it. > He probably doesn't even have an anti-virus program on it. > It is even starting to be difficult to get diskettes for it. > (which isn't too serious, because it has no drives!) As you point out it doesn't come with any drives so none of the above really factor in the "offer" decision. > It requires an analog composite monitor. A "Sony TV-115, as recommended by Steve Jobs" comes with the system > Is the IEC power receptacle original equipment? Yes and has been recently reinforced with more glue per the description > The documentation is "digital copies", instead of the original books. That is a deal killer for me. Next you are going to tell me it doesn't even come with the original box and retail packaging! > And, he is trying to get MORE THAN RETAIL for it! Well you can't blame a fellow for trying.... :D -Ali From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Oct 20 09:21:55 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:21:55 +0200 Subject: Well Heeled "Rescue" In-Reply-To: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> References: <985679229.75234.1603156426420@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <662f9e4e1cd506f56743136cf4f5951bbfe99235.camel@agj.net> m?n 2020-10-19 klockan 20:13 -0500 skrev Will Cooke via cctalk: > Since I'm a bit short of change I thought I'd pass this along. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/APPLE-1-Original-1976-Computer-System-1st-Steve-Wozniak-designed-computer-and/174195921349?hash=item288ee2d1c5:g:UNoAAOSwWqtdrkDz > > > Will i didn't check out how many zeroes were in the dollar amount soo.. 13 millions ??? ohh 1.5 x 10^6 .... OH YEAH the seller is obviously not dependent on getting it sold... From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Oct 20 12:47:57 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:47:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <20201020174757.F38D618C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > Unibus can get annoyed at a lot of things .. Q-Bus is much simpler Not sure I'd concur with that latter. In analog terms the UNIBUS and QBUS are almost identical (which is why the same driver chips such as 8641's are used with both), and at the digital level they essentially identical (asynchronous interlocked request/response for read and write; interrupts using daisy-chained grant lines, with transmitted vectors; DMA, using the basic read/write protocol to transfer data). The (not very) big differences are that the QBUS multiplexes address and data onto a single set of lines, and the more complex multi-level interrupt using a shared single grant line; in both, more complex than the UNIBUS. Perhaps you meant 'easier to use', and that may be so, since most QBUS systems are much smaller (physically). > If I could disable them I could do a normal DL11 and see what I see Looking at the docs, I don't see any way to disable the on-board serial lines. You could probably cut etches to disable them, but I would advise against that, because there are easier/better ways to go. It should be quite easy to investigatwe where the problem is: look at the 'read receive 1 CSR' line, on pin 15 of E106 (with the 'halt' switch on). If that's not hopping around, the CPU isn't running. So then we'd need to look at the basic clock, and see if that's running; if so, then the CPU chip may be failed; we'd need to look at the PAX lines to confirm that. If that CSR line is active, there's a fault somewhere in the console serial line hardware; first step would be to feed characters into the machine, and see if they're coming out the UART. If you don't want to mess with all that, there are CPU boards on eBait for not too much money. (I'd be interested in buying the non-working CPU board, if you go that way.) Noel From sales at elecplus.com Tue Oct 20 13:33:38 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:33:38 -0500 Subject: Saving old paper labels on keyboards Message-ID: <0115292a-02b0-6178-c8e1-8b91478f3a34@elecplus.com> Perhaps something like silly putty would work? Although as a precautionary tale, the silly putty from the 60s also removed part of the original ink. I do not know what the current formula would do. As kids, we used to have fun getting reverse images of the colorful comics in the Sunday paper :-) -- Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 direct From pschow at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 14:52:35 2020 From: pschow at gmail.com (Peter Schow) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 13:52:35 -0600 Subject: Vintage Transputer Collection in Tucson Message-ID: US $16K, located in Tucson, AZ, USA. https://www.ebay.com/itm/Extraordinary-Transputer-collection-Museum-quality-Unique/323705821205 >From listing: ---------------------------------- Unmatched collection of vintage Transputer based systems includes 2 (TWO) Parsytec X-plorer 16-node "desktop supercomputer" systems Tested working, both units can be linked together (cable included) for a 32 node system, tested with Helios 2 x PC (ISA) interface card (IBM meganode) includes on-board transputer 1 x BBK-PCI interface card with dual Parsytec style connectors + super rare cable Parsytec P-CUBE system with 8 nodes So rare that no (other :-) ) images of this unit can even be found on the internet 2 (TWO) Parsys Supernode SN1000 units (original cost ~$500000) Includes a total of 128 transputer nodes, and a scsi disk based operating system Tested working with an included Sun workstation with VME Transputer interface board With original invoices, user manuals, installation DAT tape ++++ 14 (Fourteen) Parsytec dual cpu (power PPC + Transputer) Eurocard boards 6 (Six) CSA Quad transputer boards (PART.1) + 7-slot EISA board and ATX power adaptor (these boards only need the power pins on the ISA connectors to function) Set of "red box" Inmos toolkits/compilers Misc Transputer conference proceedings Spare 4 slot Eurocard backplane and power supply with Transputer link connectors installed Copies of all the major Transputer operating systems (Helios, Idris, TDS, Parix, Taos, Virtuoso, Strand, Paros etc) This is a very large lot so shipping will be expensive, pay no attention to the ebay estimate contact us for a realistic quote Will consider delivering "at cost" (van hire + fuel + 2 overnight motel stops) to the Southwest states (CA, AZ, NM, UT, CO) if pre-paid by cashiers cheque. From pschow at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 17:31:05 2020 From: pschow at gmail.com (Peter Schow) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 16:31:05 -0600 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: <430f9cdcc023b4b5ec3fb8df65798888.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> <430f9cdcc023b4b5ec3fb8df65798888.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Bitsavers has the 449 Reference Manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cdc/Tom_Hunter_Scans/CDC449_Computer_RM_Oct67.pdf Weight was 12 pounds. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Oct 20 19:21:49 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 17:21:49 -0700 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> <430f9cdcc023b4b5ec3fb8df65798888.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 10/20/20 3:31 PM, Peter Schow via cctalk wrote: > Bitsavers has the 449 Reference Manual: > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/cdc/Tom_Hunter_Scans/CDC449_Computer_RM_Oct67.pdf > > Weight was 12 pounds. That apparently was with batteries; much less when you leave the battery pack out. Reading through the document, however, I wonder if this was ever a real product and not just an engineering prototype (if that). CDC did quite a number of "pie in the sky" proposals back then. Pity that they're not documented. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 20:16:20 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 19:16:20 -0600 Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? In-Reply-To: References: <7eae3d08.47d7.17530b83ad5.Webtop.109@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 7:04 AM Gavin Scott via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Or was it really just a calculator? > No, it was a real computer. From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 20 21:02:26 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 21:02:26 -0500 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On 10/18/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Weird. Set all the switches for the 11/24 CPU and Unibus map, and still > nothing coming out of the serial port. Figured I would document the > settings and see if anyone with an 11/24 can cross-check my settings. > > Serial: Because my VT52 has a male RS232 end (factory) and the 11/24 has > a male RS232 end (factory bulkhead) I am using a female-female null > modem cable. This is the same cable I use on the 11/83 CPU and it's > known working (along with the VT52). Is this the right type of cable to > use? Yes, I use a null modem cable plugged into the bulkhead connector as well. > > Switches on the CPU are: > > E135: off,off,off,on,off,off,off,on=9600 baud both signal generators. Same here from what is scribbled in my book > E124: off,on,on,off (SLU1 use signal gen 1 for tx and rx) Same Here > E124 5-8: off,on,off,off (no idea what these are) I don't know offhand, either, would have to pull the board to check it. > > Slots in use are: > 1--M7133 CPU Same on mine in slot 1, of course > 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map Same as mine on slot 2 as well, of course I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall for about $600. I have added many things to the system over the year, including a VT11, a DR11C, an Emulex SMD disk controller, etc. It has had one power supply repair (thanks for advice from, I think, Tony Duel about not destroying test equipment while troubleshooting) and early on blown SLU1 dirver/receiver chips which I replaced. After that, I have: M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). G7273 Bus + DMA Grant card M7860 DR11C M7846 RX01 M7762 RL11 .... and other stuff .... Ending with at VT11 containing an M9302 Boot/terminator SLU1 Interface config, J3 W1 IN (1 stop bit) W5, W7 OUT (disable parity detection) W6, W8 OUT (no parity is generated) E124 1 OFF, 2 ON, 3 ON, 4 OFF SLU1 and SLU2 both Baud Rate 1 E135 9600 Baud (S1, S2, S3 OFF, S4 ON) (Baud Rate 1) 9600 Baud (S5, S6, S& OFF, S8 ON) (Baud Rate 2) 1 J2 Pin 13 + 18 2 J2 Pin 11 (EM2) 3 J2 Pin 1 (FM2) 4 N/C 5 N/C 6 N/C 7 J2 Pin 20 8 ---- (I wrote this - probably meant N/C) 9 ---- 10 ---- 11 J2 Pin 12 12 J2 Pin 6 13 thru 19 ---- 20 J2 Pin 16 21 - 24 ---- 25 J2 Pin 13 + 18 SLU2 Interface config Originally: Just pin 2 to J2 2+4 Baud Rate 2: W9 OUT, W10 IN, W11 OUT, W12 IN, W4 OUT To support a TU-58 on SLU2 I added J4 3-8 J5 2-3 J4 4-7 J5 1-7 CPU Module Jumpers (I believe, but would have to verify) W2 OUT (power up via location 24, so usually it halts) W3 IN (allows halt in Kernel mode) W14 IN (Boot address 165000) UNIBUS MAP Jumpers TP11, TP12 presumably OUT(enables diagnostic ROM) W13 presumably IN (enables diagnostic ROM) I can't see Switch E58 without pulling the board to see. Same, of course, with the jumpers. I expect they are factory default. NOTE: A a test, I swapped in a CPU 23-001C7AA, Floating Point, 23-002C7AA and Memory Map chip 21-15542-01 from a PDP-11/23, and they naturally worked fine. > 3--M7891 MS11-L memory (configured for extended unibus), green light on, > red light off > 4,5,6--G727 > 7-M7982 TS11 tape controller > 8 M8256 RX02 controller > 9 M9302 terminator and G7273 board > > When powered on in HALT mode the 11/24 CPU board has the third LED on. > Go to RUN stays on. Go to boot, LED goes off. If the unit is turned on > with the switch in RUN, the light is out. > > MS11-L has a green light on at all times. When I forgot the 9302 it had > a red light on as well, but plugging that in and restarting cleared the > red light on the memory. Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of 1) Powering on my system (been just a bit over a year) to do basic checks 2) Pull the boards and document 3) Put them back and do basic checks again. JRJ 2) From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 20 21:05:53 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 22:05:53 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? Message-ID: Now I'm starting to look through boxes to see if I have another 11/24 CPU. I seem to recall picking a second one up somewhere, I also want to see if I still have the driver board for the second Plessy core memory. Might be around, might have been pitched. So far I did find a box of DZ11's. Not sure why I have a dozen of them, they might have been from the USPS haul in days of yore. Anyone need a couple of DZ11's? The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core memory board, but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the original KA10). So question: Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? Did any of that stuff survive? Anyplace else it might have come from? Weird stuff. Got a lot of it.... CZ From cube1 at charter.net Tue Oct 20 22:03:11 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 22:03:11 -0500 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> On 10/20/2020 9:05 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Now I'm starting to look through boxes to see if I have another 11/24 > CPU. I seem to recall picking a second one up somewhere, I also want to > see if I still have the driver board for the second Plessy core memory. > Might be around, might have been pitched. > > So far I did find a box of DZ11's. Not sure why I have a dozen of them, > they might have been from the USPS haul in days of yore. Anyone need a > couple of DZ11's? > > The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core > memory board, but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: > An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the > original KA10). So question: > > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? > Did any of that stuff survive? > Anyplace else it might have come from? > > Weird stuff. Got a lot of it.... > > CZ Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. I would guess that that would be much more likely. JRJ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 20 22:26:22 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:26:22 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> References: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> Message-ID: > Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? > I would guess that that would be much more likely. Problem is I have never been near a pdp15, but I have been in proximity to AI. I don't remember what happened to it after Doug's apartment, I do remember seeing the console with the switches in the storage unit, not sure what happened to that or the rest of it. Weird. (And I think it was a MF10 memory, not MA10) From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 22:39:47 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 21:39:47 -0600 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core > memory board, Most of the DEC core plane boards were not specific to any particular bus. though there are some exceptions. > but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: > An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the > original KA10). > I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors like Ferroxcube. The much later MF10 does use the H216, while the MG10 uses the H217 and the MH10 uses the H224. The H216 also might have been used in memory systems for a PDP-9 (late in its life) or the PDP-15. The ME15 normally used the H215 18-bit core planes, but I think there was a parity option, which would have used the H216. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Oct 20 22:56:23 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:56:23 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:02 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the > 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall > for about $600. Nice. I didn't end up working for UW-Madison until 2003. I never encountered any Unibus gear at that late a date, but I did run across some Qbus cards. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Tue Oct 20 23:02:31 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 00:02:31 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44d3a242-c78f-848a-8710-f001437b1f37@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, so the MF10 would have been hooked up to a KI10. That makes sense then. Still interesting wonder what set of bad decisions led it to my box of parts.... Anyone need DZ11's? C On 10/20/2020 11:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 8:06 PM Chris Zach via cctalk > > wrote: > > The real weird one is a quad board H216. I thought it was a Unibus core > memory board, > > > Most of the DEC core plane boards were not specific to any particular > bus. though there are some exceptions. > > but it's 8k*19 bits, which means it came from one place: > An MA10 memory box. The only one I may have been exposed to was AI (the > original KA10). > > > I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or > MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. > They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors > like Ferroxcube. > > The much later MF10 does use the H216, while the MG10 uses the H217 and > the MH10 uses the H224. > > The H216 also might have been used in memory systems for a PDP-9 (late > in its life) or the PDP-15. The ME15 normally used the H215 18-bit core > planes, but I think there was a parity option, which would have used the > H216. > > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 00:09:25 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 23:09:25 -0600 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <44d3a242-c78f-848a-8710-f001437b1f37@alembic.crystel.com> References: <44d3a242-c78f-848a-8710-f001437b1f37@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:02 PM Chris Zach wrote: > Ok, so the MF10 would have been hooked up to a KI10. > The ME10 was the first core box for the PDP-10 memory bus that supported 22-bit addressing, and could be used on the KA10, KI10, or KL10 (with a DMA20 memory bus interface, not available on DECSYSTEM-20 configurations). It has a toggle switch to select 18-bit or 22-bit addressing. The later core boxes (MF10, MG10, and MH10) also supported 18-bit and 22-bit addressing. The MA10, MB10, and MD10 only supported 18-bit addressing, so typically wouldn't have been used on the KI10 or KL10. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Oct 21 00:26:21 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2020 22:26:21 -0700 Subject: ClassicCmp FTP Access? References: <0LkNen-1jsTc40g3f-00cTef@mrelay.perfora.net> Message-ID: <008201d6a76a$b6f57580$24e06080$@net> > >I had no problem as of about 930pm last night. > > >http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > >Long Island S100 User's Group > O.k. I tried connecting again using both CuteFTP Pro and windows ftp client and neither will connect. I can surf my site and I can ping it but FTP connections are failing. I can connect to other FTP servers (on my LAN and on the internet) so it is not a configuration issue on this end. -Ali From lars at nocrew.org Wed Oct 21 02:05:42 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 07:05:42 +0000 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: (Chris Zach via cctalk's message of "Tue, 20 Oct 2020 22:05:53 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7w8sc0ukhl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Chris Zach wrote: > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? No. It had the original 256K "moby" from Fabri-Tek, and another 256K from Ampex. The associated PDP-6 had an older DEC Type 16x-something 16K memory. > Did any of that stuff survive? Maybe bits and pieces here and there. The AI KA10 went to Concourse, and then it was lost. From doug at doughq.com Wed Oct 21 05:02:52 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 21:02:52 +1100 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <7w8sc0ukhl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7w8sc0ukhl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: Those of us late to the party may like to know: 1. What was AL 2. Why was it famous? 3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Wed, 21 Oct 2020 at 18:05, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Chris Zach wrote: > > Did AI use MA10 memory boxes? > > No. It had the original 256K "moby" from Fabri-Tek, and another 256K > from Ampex. The associated PDP-6 had an older DEC Type 16x-something > 16K memory. > > > Did any of that stuff survive? > > Maybe bits and pieces here and there. The AI KA10 went to Concourse, > and then it was lost. > From lars at nocrew.org Wed Oct 21 05:54:51 2020 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:54:51 +0000 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: (Doug Jackson's message of "Wed, 21 Oct 2020 21:02:52 +1100") References: <7w8sc0ukhl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7wwnzju9vo.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Doug Jackson wrote: > Those of us late to the party may like to know: > 1. What was AL > 2. Why was it famous? Not AL, but AI. Also known as MIT-AI on the ARPANET. It was the PDP-10 used by the MIT AI lab, hence the name. The Incompatible Timesharing System was developed on their PDP-6, later moved to the PDP-10. There were three more ITS machines in the 70s: MIT-DMS/Dynamic Modeling, MIT-ML/Mathlab, and MIT-MC/Macsyma Consortium. If ITS doesn't ring a bell, maybe some of its applications/tools might: Maclisp, Scheme, Logo, CLU, DDT/HACTRN, SHRLDU, MacHack VI, Macsyma, Maze(war), Emacs, Zork. > 3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) I'll leave it to others to talk about Digex. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Oct 21 07:22:06 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 14:22:06 +0200 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> Message-ID: <20201021122206.h36o7jxxi7sjdb7x@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:26:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. > > Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L Admittedly, the PDP-15/XVM might have had something else.. not sure what model the core I saw came from. /P From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 10:01:18 2020 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 10:01:18 -0500 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <359012f6-e18d-5635-1720-0d4e94c039c0@gmail.com> Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:02 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk > wrote: >> I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the >> 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall >> for about $600. > Nice. I didn't end up working for UW-Madison until 2003. I never > encountered any Unibus gear at that late a date, but I did run across > some Qbus cards. > > -ethan > Back in '89-91 at UW-Madison,? the main mail server was vms.macc.wisc.edu .? We at EE had mostly Sun, Apollo (later HP9000/400)? and Mac II's to play with, but the guys at ChemE had a bunch of vaxen (mostly Microvax II's); they had DECNet but were also accessible via IP somehow, at least on some nodes.? Nobody was throwing interesting stuff to the trash in those days. Carlos. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 21 11:36:48 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 12:36:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? Message-ID: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay Jaeger >> 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map > M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). If that's all the memory you have, the KT24 isn't really doing anything (well, monitoring power; holding boot PROM's; etc). Is your MS11-L configured to be EUB memory, then? If no KT24 is plugged in, the CPU detects that there isn't one there, and permanently, statically maps the UNIBUS straight across to the bottom 256KB of EUB space. (Presumably a low-cost option for the /24.) Although the 'straight across' mapping only applies to UNIBUS->EUB cycles, not EUB->UNIBUS cycles, such as those from the CPU; but the TM says [pg 2-31 in the 003 version] that if E124-S6 is OFF, "the lower 18 bits of every address go to the UNIBUS", which implies that when OFF, UNIBUS memory appears at 0 in the CPU's address space. So it should work as UNIBUS memory, with E124-S6 OFF; it would be interesting to verify that. The TM also says (pg. 2-40) "systems with UNIBUS memory ... require changes to be made to the mapping jumpers [on the KT24]". > Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of > .. > 2) Pull the boards and document What kind of box is your -11/24 in, a BA11-A, or BA11-L? If the latter, I'd be really grateful for some closeups of the interior, so I can put mine back together, and do some of these experiments. (Yes, yes, I know I should have taken pictures before I took it apart; I was just starting, and was going by how we used to do things, back before there were digital cameras.) I could probably work it out by staring hard, and thinking harder, along with the prints, but photos would be a lot easier! :-) If it's a BA11-A, I'm still trying to get an image of the special power adapter used to turn the bus bar of the BA11-A into the 6/15 pin Mate-N-Lok connectors used by the -11/24 backplane. Noel From rshepprd at gmail.com Wed Oct 21 12:33:01 2020 From: rshepprd at gmail.com (Richard Sheppard) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:33:01 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? Message-ID: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 16:48:22 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 17:48:22 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> References: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? C On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 21 18:17:45 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 19:17:45 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? Message-ID: <20201021231745.7BE2818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Richard Sheppard > There's a piece of core on eBay .. which claims to be H214. The interesting > thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. DEC did that a lot; used one silkscreen (and etch) for two different modules, with differing componet sets to produce two different boards (e.g the MSV11-D and -E: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-D_MOS_memory M8044 and M8045 respectively; the boards all say 'M8045' in the etch, you have to look at the handles). The H214 is the 16-bit wide version of this board, used in the MM11-L UNIBUS memory: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-L_core_memory The parity MM11-LP uses the H215 (an 18-bit wide version), and a G109 instead of the G110 (again, same etch, some components left off for the G110. There's also an H213, used in the MM11-K: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-K_core_memory which is an 8KB version; the H213 looks identical to the H214 at first glance, but if you look closely the core mats are only half as dense. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 19:11:28 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:11:28 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <359012f6-e18d-5635-1720-0d4e94c039c0@gmail.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <359012f6-e18d-5635-1720-0d4e94c039c0@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hm. In 1986 I was given a pair of pdp8/I's, a third 8/I that was broken, an RK8, and a bunch of packs from UMBC's psychology lab that were in an old closet. I could not move out the PDP12 that was in there (would never fit in my station wagon) but I did take out the FPP12 unit. Ah those were the days. I wonder if the pdp12 is still there sometimes.... C On 10/21/2020 11:01 AM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 10:02 PM Jay Jaeger via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the >>> 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and? and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall >>> for about $600. >> Nice.? I didn't end up working for UW-Madison until 2003.? I never >> encountered any Unibus gear at that late a date, but I did run across >> some Qbus cards. >> >> -ethan >> > Back in '89-91 at UW-Madison,? the main mail server was > vms.macc.wisc.edu .? We at EE had mostly Sun, Apollo (later HP9000/400) > and Mac II's to play with, but the guys at ChemE had a bunch of vaxen > (mostly Microvax II's); they had DECNet but were also accessible via IP > somehow, at least on some nodes.? Nobody was throwing interesting stuff > to the trash in those days. > > Carlos. > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 19:13:25 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:13:25 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: <7w8sc0ukhl.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <7526cc35-2804-5acd-bcee-2374e2920dfa@alembic.crystel.com> > 3. Tell us more about Doug, and his apartment :-) Alas, those legends are lost in the mists and tubes of time... Only fragments remain to cause giggles at random intervals. CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 19:16:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:16:13 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm pretty sure the H216 was too new to have been used in an MA10 or > MB10, but I don't know which core planes or other modules were used. > They might have still been using core modules made by external vendors > like Ferroxcube. It's looking to be the same vintage as the 11/05 memory I have (the H214) so early 70's. I'm uploading a picture of that and some 11/24 pictures to: https://www.crystel.com/pdp Should be there in an hour. CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 19:28:30 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:28:30 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0056392b-9b41-2845-c49c-c7184e45b4e9@alembic.crystel.com> > If that's all the memory you have, the KT24 isn't really doing anything > (well, monitoring power; holding boot PROM's; etc). Is your MS11-L configured > to be EUB memory, then? If no KT24 is plugged in, the CPU detects that there > isn't one there, and permanently, statically maps the UNIBUS straight across > to the bottom 256KB of EUB space. (Presumably a low-cost option for the /24.) Yes. I re-jumpered the memory to be EUB memory (bit of a pain as I wicked the solder, then moved the jumper) I could move it back but I think the problem is before this (and remove the Unibus map) however in that case do the five slots under the CPU board go from being EUB to MUD slots? Or are they blanked out with H727 knucklebusters? > What kind of box is your -11/24 in, a BA11-A, or BA11-L? The little 5.25 inch one. I just put up a few pics at www.crystel.com/pdp, what kind of shots are you looking for? CZ From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 21 19:53:57 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 20:53:57 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <20201021231745.7BE2818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201021231745.7BE2818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5075fc10-a321-192e-22ef-b5fcc4c98727@alembic.crystel.com> My guess is the H215 has two more core fields on it since mine has 3 (18 bits plus parity). Odd they could fit up to 20 bits, maybe an early ECC (16b+4 ECC?) C On 10/21/2020 7:17 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Richard Sheppard > > > There's a piece of core on eBay .. which claims to be H214. The interesting > > thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > DEC did that a lot; used one silkscreen (and etch) for two different modules, > with differing componet sets to produce two different boards (e.g the MSV11-D > and -E: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-D_MOS_memory > > M8044 and M8045 respectively; the boards all say 'M8045' in the etch, you > have to look at the handles). The H214 is the 16-bit wide version of this > board, used in the MM11-L UNIBUS memory: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-L_core_memory > > The parity MM11-LP uses the H215 (an 18-bit wide version), and a G109 instead > of the G110 (again, same etch, some components left off for the G110. > > There's also an H213, used in the MM11-K: > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MM11-K_core_memory > > which is an 8KB version; the H213 looks identical to the H214 at first > glance, but if you look closely the core mats are only half as dense. > > Noel > From cube1 at charter.net Thu Oct 22 10:02:30 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 10:02:30 -0500 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory? In-Reply-To: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201021163648.8DDEA18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7465df4c-00b2-e9fd-31a1-52b7fdff9551@charter.net> On 10/21/2020 11:36 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jay Jaeger > > >> 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map > > > M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). > > If that's all the memory you have, the KT24 isn't really doing anything > (well, monitoring power; holding boot PROM's; etc). Is your MS11-L configured > to be EUB memory, then? If no KT24 is plugged in, the CPU detects that there > isn't one there, and permanently, statically maps the UNIBUS straight across > to the bottom 256KB of EUB space. (Presumably a low-cost option for the /24.) > No idea how it is configured as it has always "just worked". Factory as a guess. Will pull it and document it. > Although the 'straight across' mapping only applies to UNIBUS->EUB cycles, > not EUB->UNIBUS cycles, such as those from the CPU; but the TM says [pg 2-31 > in the 003 version] that if E124-S6 is OFF, "the lower 18 bits of every > address go to the UNIBUS", which implies that when OFF, UNIBUS memory appears > at 0 in the CPU's address space. So it should work as UNIBUS memory, with > E124-S6 OFF; it would be interesting to verify that. The TM also says (pg. > 2-40) "systems with UNIBUS memory ... require changes to be made to the > mapping jumpers [on the KT24]". > > > Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of > > .. > > 2) Pull the boards and document > > What kind of box is your -11/24 in, a BA11-A, or BA11-L? > > If the latter, I'd be really grateful for some closeups of the interior, so I > can put mine back together, and do some of these experiments. (Yes, yes, I > know I should have taken pictures before I took it apart; I was just > starting, and was going by how we used to do things, back before there were > digital cameras.) I could probably work it out by staring hard, and thinking > harder, along with the prints, but photos would be a lot easier! :-) > > If it's a BA11-A, I'm still trying to get an image of the special power > adapter used to turn the bus bar of the BA11-A into the 6/15 pin Mate-N-Lok > connectors used by the -11/24 backplane. > > Noel > It's the BA11-A - 10.5" flavor. I'll take photos you requested here and document the board jumpers and switches over the next week or so, for my own use, if nothing else. JRJ From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 22 12:33:52 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:33:52 +0200 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20201022173352.zsf54dwl6h45dtsl@Update.UU.SE> Does yours look like this: https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats > un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? > > C > > On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > > There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 22 12:42:43 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 13:42:43 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <20201022173352.zsf54dwl6h45dtsl@Update.UU.SE> References: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> <20201022173352.zsf54dwl6h45dtsl@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <32317bd3-e7f6-903d-ad14-672b8de6bb17@alembic.crystel.com> Exactly. See: http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? CZ On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Does yours look like this: > > https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne > > The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats >> un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? >> >> C >> >> On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: >>> There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. >>> >>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>> From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Oct 22 12:56:33 2020 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:56:33 +0200 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <32317bd3-e7f6-903d-ad14-672b8de6bb17@alembic.crystel.com> References: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> <20201022173352.zsf54dwl6h45dtsl@Update.UU.SE> <32317bd3-e7f6-903d-ad14-672b8de6bb17@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <20201022175633.qxcfyqrx5qegtsld@Update.UU.SE> I know for certain they had KL and KS machines but no KA. It is possible they had a KI machine. /P On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:42:43PM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: > Exactly. See: > > http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG > > So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? > > CZ > > On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > Does yours look like this: > > > > https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne > > > > The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. > > > > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats > > > un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? > > > > > > C > > > > > > On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: > > > > There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. > > > > > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 22 13:04:00 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 14:04:00 -0400 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <20201022175633.qxcfyqrx5qegtsld@Update.UU.SE> References: <5f9070cd.1c69fb81.cae81.a615@mx.google.com> <47dfe21b-37bb-af1c-0fa4-8c0737c698c5@alembic.crystel.com> <20201022173352.zsf54dwl6h45dtsl@Update.UU.SE> <32317bd3-e7f6-903d-ad14-672b8de6bb17@alembic.crystel.com> <20201022175633.qxcfyqrx5qegtsld@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7cda078d-38f8-9ad9-0a84-48cae911293c@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, then my guess is this either came from a KI or a KA with a very different memory box. I'll put it in the collection, and oddly enough I'll bet that it could work in the 11/05 if one of those boards ever blow out. C On 10/22/2020 1:56 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > I know for certain they had KL and KS machines but no KA. > > It is possible they had a KI machine. > > /P > > On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 01:42:43PM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: >> Exactly. See: >> >> http://www.crystel.com/pdp/DSC_0032.JPG >> >> So which class of pdp-10 did QZ have? KA or KI? >> >> CZ >> >> On 10/22/2020 1:33 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> Does yours look like this: >>> >>> https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026360851/ferritkarnminne >>> >>> The one pictured should be from QZ which had PDP-10 machines. >>> >>> On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 05:48:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>>> Very similar to mine, however this one has only one of the core mats >>>> un-woven. Want me to take a picture of it? >>>> >>>> C >>>> >>>> On 10/21/2020 1:33 PM, Richard Sheppard via cctalk wrote: >>>>> There?s a piece of core on eBay https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-Digital-H214-Digital-Equipment-Core-Memory-Litton-38540-1/111384040291 which claims to be H214. The interesting thing is the label says 8K x 16 but the silkscreen says 8K x 19. >>>>> >>>>> Sent from Mail for Windows 10 >>>>> From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Oct 22 13:30:40 2020 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (brian at quarterbyte.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:30:40 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? Message-ID: Hi all, Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that *don't *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that has some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I could by aftermarket. Any ideas would be appreciated! thanks brian From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Oct 22 13:35:17 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 14:35:17 -0400 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <317C34AD-EE87-4941-943D-1B7F5F7BDB29@verizon.net> I have not seen a cover but how about an empty header shell. I forget if they're called C-Grid but it's the ones you have to crimp pins and insert into the shell. I have those "in stock" but usually not bigger than 2x13, but if I wanted to protect something, that's what I'd grab off my shelf. ?On 10/22/20, 2:31 PM, "cctalk on behalf of brian--- via cctalk" wrote: Hi all, Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that *don't *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that has some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I could by aftermarket. Any ideas would be appreciated! thanks brian From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 22 13:38:46 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 11:38:46 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2286a24c-8133-f6e9-7606-5dc9c6d1cb13@sydex.com> On 10/22/20 11:30 AM, brian--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect > standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that *don't > *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that has > some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against > anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch > pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I > haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I > could by aftermarket. > > Any ideas would be appreciated! > thanks > brian You can simple pull out the metal insert in most jumpers. Of course, they won't stay on quite as well... --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Oct 22 14:14:02 2020 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 12:14:02 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> On 10/22/2020 11:30 AM, brian--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect > standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that *don't > *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that has > some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against > anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch > pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I > haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I > could by aftermarket. > > Any ideas would be appreciated! I'd worry that not just the jumper pins can be shorted, and whether what was really needed was a proper enclosure. If not, then what I'd do is probably to go to my favorite vendor for RasPi/Arduino junk (AdaFruit, perhaps). I'd buy an assortment of shrouds, of the sort they use to build their cables (which fit over header pins like these) -- the assortment is by far the cheapest way I know to obtain them. Then I'd buy the crimp pins that go inside, and insert them without wires. If I was super paranoid, I'd use my flush cutters to trim off a bit of the area meant to crimp the insulation, so that no metal was near the top when I put my connector on the header. You can also use the housings to neatly build up your most used jumper configurations for quick changes. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 22 14:27:41 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 12:27:41 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> Message-ID: <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> On 10/22/20 12:14 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > I'd worry that not just the jumper pins can be shorted, and whether what > was really needed was a proper enclosure.? If not, then what I'd do is > probably to go to my favorite vendor for RasPi/Arduino junk (AdaFruit, > perhaps).? I'd buy an assortment of shrouds, of the sort they use to > build their cables (which fit over header pins like these) -- the > assortment is by far the cheapest way I know to obtain them.? Then I'd > buy the crimp pins that go inside, and insert them without wires.? If I > was super paranoid, I'd use my flush cutters to trim off a bit of the > area meant to crimp the insulation, so that no metal was near the top > when I put my connector on the header. I don't know if it's applicable, but I use hunks of extruded polystyrene insulating foam to protect the pins on my wire-wrapped projects. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Oct 22 15:12:59 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 16:12:59 -0400 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> > On Oct 22, 2020, at 3:27 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 10/22/20 12:14 PM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > >> I'd worry that not just the jumper pins can be shorted, and whether what >> was really needed was a proper enclosure. If not, then what I'd do is >> probably to go to my favorite vendor for RasPi/Arduino junk (AdaFruit, >> perhaps). I'd buy an assortment of shrouds, of the sort they use to >> build their cables (which fit over header pins like these) -- the >> assortment is by far the cheapest way I know to obtain them. Then I'd >> buy the crimp pins that go inside, and insert them without wires. If I >> was super paranoid, I'd use my flush cutters to trim off a bit of the >> area meant to crimp the insulation, so that no metal was near the top >> when I put my connector on the header. > > > I don't know if it's applicable, but I use hunks of extruded polystyrene > insulating foam to protect the pins on my wire-wrapped projects. Not a good idea with ESD sensitive electronics. You could use antistatic foam, though. Its resistance is high enough that electronics won't notice its presence. A variation on the connector idea: use an insulation-displacement type connector (the kind that you mount onto a flat cable assembly) without the cable. Just snap on the cover over the i-d pins and you have a fully insulated assembly with the pins acting as spring clamps for the jumper pins. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Oct 22 16:12:42 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 14:12:42 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 10/22/20 1:12 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Not a good idea with ESD sensitive electronics. You could use antistatic foam, though. Its resistance is high enough that electronics won't notice its presence. I've cut the stuff six ways to Sunday and I've never had the problem of the clingy crumbs in XPS, so there's probably some antistatic additive in that, probably part of the FR treatment. > A variation on the connector idea: use an insulation-displacement type connector (the kind that you mount onto a flat cable assembly) without the cable. Just snap on the cover over the i-d pins and you have a fully insulated assembly with the pins acting as spring clamps for the jumper pins. That's not terribly useful when you have only one or two positions to protect, is it? --Chuck From brian at quarterbyte.com Thu Oct 22 16:30:36 2020 From: brian at quarterbyte.com (brian at quarterbyte.com) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 14:30:36 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: <317C34AD-EE87-4941-943D-1B7F5F7BDB29@verizon.net> References: <317C34AD-EE87-4941-943D-1B7F5F7BDB29@verizon.net> Message-ID: that's a thought, thanks. This is 2x3. That could work. I may end up just clipping off the pins! brian On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:35 AM Richard Cini wrote: > I have not seen a cover but how about an empty header shell. I forget if > they're called C-Grid but it's the ones you have to crimp pins and insert > into the shell. I have those "in stock" but usually not bigger than 2x13, > but if I wanted to protect something, that's what I'd grab off my shelf. > > > ?On 10/22/20, 2:31 PM, "cctalk on behalf of brian--- via cctalk" < > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Hi all, > > Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect > standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that > *don't > *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that > has > some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against > anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 > pitch > pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I > haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I > could by aftermarket. > > Any ideas would be appreciated! > thanks > brian > > > > From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Oct 22 16:33:34 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 22:33:34 +0100 (BST) Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > A variation on the connector idea: use an insulation-displacement type > > connector (the kind that you mount onto a flat cable assembly) without > > the cable. Just snap on the cover over the i-d pins and you have a > > fully insulated assembly with the pins acting as spring clamps for the > > jumper pins. > > That's not terribly useful when you have only one or two positions to > protect, is it? Following the idea however you can use a wire-to-board connector housing like from Harwin M20 series with just empty contacts inserted. They are widely available and start from 1x1 even. Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Oct 22 17:21:08 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 23:21:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> , Message-ID: On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Wayne S wrote: > I?ve just stripped off a short piece of insulation from hookup wire and > slipped it over the pin.Fits tight and can be removed and it's cheap. I guess it's as cheap as you can get. :) Maciej From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Oct 22 17:26:37 2020 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 17:26:37 -0500 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201022222708.5649B2744D@mx1.ezwind.net> At 01:30 PM 10/22/2020, you wrote: >I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch >pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I >haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I >could by aftermarket. I'd use two jumpers. Hang one off one pin, hang the other off the other. If you wanted to get fancy, superglue them in the middle. - John From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 22 18:21:49 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:21:49 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Progress sorta In-Reply-To: References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> Interesting. I went up to the attic and opened the Unibus box. I have 3 extra 11/24 boards, and I have *NO* idea why. Oi. So anyway I started popping them into the 11/24 chassis to see what happens. Run/halt in halt, looking for anything. On the first one (old style) same problem: The CPU board does not talk to the VT52. The second one however brought up ODT with 000000 @ Progress! I immediately stopped and documented the switch settings: Left switch : 0,0,0,1 0,0,0,1 Right switch: 0,1,0,1 0,1,0,0 All three lights (clock, 1,2) come on. And I can press enter and get @ so it does listen to the console. However if enter 0/ the CPU locks up and the CPU light goes off. Only way to get back is to power cycle. Likewise starting with the switch in RUN will do this, as will toggling it to BOOT. So it's probably unable to access memory. I did try pulling the unibus map, then the memory, then everything but the terminator. Same response. Hm. I could try re-jumpering my memory board to appear as MUD memory and try it without the KT24 and see if the problem is there. It's possible. If I did that would I put the memory in slot 2 or leave it in slot 3? The other two boards failed the same way as the first. One of the boards is a *new* style one with the ASICs onboard, it has three switch boxes, is there a manual to describe this one? I did try to set the switches on the original cpu to match the working one. The original had 0,0,0,1 0,0,0,1 (same) 0,0,1,0 0,1,0,0 Switching thr right switch to 0,1,0,1 does seem to put garbage on the VT52, so something might be happening. I also found a M7850 memory board (1mb, for 11/750, 730, and kind of 11/70) which I am guessing won't work in the EUB. Anyone want to swap it for a EUB memory board or a 256K working UNIBUS memory board? CZ On 10/20/2020 10:02 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 10/18/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >> Weird. Set all the switches for the 11/24 CPU and Unibus map, and still >> nothing coming out of the serial port. Figured I would document the >> settings and see if anyone with an 11/24 can cross-check my settings. >> >> Serial: Because my VT52 has a male RS232 end (factory) and the 11/24 has >> a male RS232 end (factory bulkhead) I am using a female-female null >> modem cable. This is the same cable I use on the 11/83 CPU and it's >> known working (along with the VT52). Is this the right type of cable to >> use? > > Yes, I use a null modem cable plugged into the bulkhead connector as well. > >> >> Switches on the CPU are: >> >> E135: off,off,off,on,off,off,off,on=9600 baud both signal generators. > > Same here from what is scribbled in my book > >> E124: off,on,on,off (SLU1 use signal gen 1 for tx and rx) > > Same Here > >> E124 5-8: off,on,off,off (no idea what these are) > > I don't know offhand, either, would have to pull the board to check it. > >> >> Slots in use are: >> 1--M7133 CPU > > Same on mine in slot 1, of course > >> 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map > > Same as mine on slot 2 as well, of course > > I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the > 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall > for about $600. I have added many things to the system over the year, > including a VT11, a DR11C, an Emulex SMD disk controller, etc. > > It has had one power supply repair (thanks for advice from, I think, > Tony Duel about not destroying test equipment while troubleshooting) and > early on blown SLU1 dirver/receiver chips which I replaced. > > After that, I have: > > M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). > G7273 Bus + DMA Grant card > M7860 DR11C > M7846 RX01 > M7762 RL11 > .... > and other stuff > .... > Ending with at VT11 containing an M9302 Boot/terminator > > SLU1 Interface config, J3 > > W1 IN (1 stop bit) > W5, W7 OUT (disable parity detection) > W6, W8 OUT (no parity is generated) > > E124 > > 1 OFF, 2 ON, 3 ON, 4 OFF > SLU1 and SLU2 both Baud Rate 1 > > > E135 > > 9600 Baud (S1, S2, S3 OFF, S4 ON) (Baud Rate 1) > 9600 Baud (S5, S6, S& OFF, S8 ON) (Baud Rate 2) > > > 1 J2 Pin 13 + 18 > 2 J2 Pin 11 (EM2) > 3 J2 Pin 1 (FM2) > 4 N/C > 5 N/C > 6 N/C > 7 J2 Pin 20 > 8 ---- (I wrote this - probably meant N/C) > 9 ---- > 10 ---- > 11 J2 Pin 12 > 12 J2 Pin 6 > 13 thru 19 ---- > 20 J2 Pin 16 > 21 - 24 ---- > 25 J2 Pin 13 + 18 > > SLU2 Interface config > > Originally: Just pin 2 to J2 2+4 > > Baud Rate 2: W9 OUT, W10 IN, W11 OUT, W12 IN, W4 OUT > > To support a TU-58 on SLU2 I added > > J4 3-8 J5 2-3 > J4 4-7 J5 1-7 > > > > CPU Module Jumpers (I believe, but would have to verify) > > W2 OUT (power up via location 24, so usually it halts) > W3 IN (allows halt in Kernel mode) > W14 IN (Boot address 165000) > > UNIBUS MAP Jumpers > > TP11, TP12 presumably OUT(enables diagnostic ROM) > W13 presumably IN (enables diagnostic ROM) > > I can't see Switch E58 without pulling the board to see. Same, of > course, with the jumpers. I expect they are factory default. > > NOTE: A a test, I swapped in a CPU 23-001C7AA, > Floating Point, 23-002C7AA and Memory Map chip 21-15542-01 from > a PDP-11/23, and they naturally worked fine. > > >> 3--M7891 MS11-L memory (configured for extended unibus), green light on, >> red light off >> 4,5,6--G727 >> 7-M7982 TS11 tape controller >> 8 M8256 RX02 controller >> 9 M9302 terminator and G7273 board >> >> When powered on in HALT mode the 11/24 CPU board has the third LED on. >> Go to RUN stays on. Go to boot, LED goes off. If the unit is turned on >> with the switch in RUN, the light is out. >> >> MS11-L has a green light on at all times. When I forgot the 9302 it had >> a red light on as well, but plugging that in and restarting cleared the >> red light on the memory. > > Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of > > 1) Powering on my system (been just a bit over a year) to do basic checks > > 2) Pull the boards and document > > 3) Put them back and do basic checks again. > > JRJ > 2) > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Oct 22 18:51:13 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 19:51:13 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Progress sorta In-Reply-To: <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: Hm. Even odder: When I went back to the original CPU board and changed the switch settings to that of the working board I got garbage on the VT100. Checking with a PC and PUTTY I see it *is* now working but at 19200 baud even though I have it set to 9600 baud... Switch packs may be bad among other things. Hm. So the difference was switching switch pack 2 (the right one) from 0,0,1,0 0,1,0,0 to 0,1,0,1 0,1,0,0 E124 (the switch above) is used to set the baud rate for SLU1 to one of the two "Baud rates" defined by E135 (the first one, on the left). I'm guessing there are two baud rates so you can run async baud speeds if you're truly nuts (or are living in 1980 with modems that ran 110 baud one way and 1200 baud the other. Kind of like ADSL). Anyway the manual says for E124 to set the switches as follows: Transmit: 2 1 Receive : 3 4 Baud rate 1: ON OFF Baud rate 2: OFF ON A more confusing truth table cannot be found. Did they misprint this? Did engineering just hate the documentation team when they laid out the screening for this board? I don't know, but for whatever reason (switch 1,2) 0,1 Sets transmit to baud rate 1 (switch 3,4) 0,1 Sets receive to baud rate 2 While my board settings were invalid. Ok, kind of makes sense. However the fact that I'm running at 19200 means all of E135's switches are "off" even though switch 4 and 8 are flipped on. Must be dirty switches, time to get the cleaner out.... Anyway, some progress. Now if I jumper the MS11-L for MUD should I put it in slot 2 (where the system says "KT24/Mem" but also says it's an EUB slot) or slot 7 (the first MUD slot)? Also I am a bit rusty but I assume "SPC" means small peripheral controller WITHOUT DMA and NPR SPC means the slot can support DMA (non processor request) or requires a G7270 as opposed to a G727 knucklebuster to pass the DMA request line? If so that would mean I would have: CPU God knows what (G727 or G7270 or nothing?) G727 G727 G727 G727 MS11-L (first MUD) RX21 (It's a quad slot SPC with DMA) 930 terminator and G727 (it's the "Unibus" and an SPC without DMA) What fun! C On 10/22/2020 7:21 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Interesting. I went up to the attic and opened the Unibus box. I have 3 > extra 11/24 boards, and I have *NO* idea why. Oi. So anyway I started > popping them into the 11/24 chassis to see what happens. Run/halt in > halt, looking for anything. > > On the first one (old style) same problem: The CPU board does not talk > to the VT52. The second one however brought up ODT with > 000000 > @ > > Progress! I immediately stopped and documented the switch settings: > Left switch : 0,0,0,1 0,0,0,1 > Right switch: 0,1,0,1 0,1,0,0 > > All three lights (clock, 1,2) come on. And I can press enter and get @ > so it does listen to the console. However if enter 0/ the CPU locks up > and the CPU light goes off. Only way to get back is to power cycle. > Likewise starting with the switch in RUN will do this, as will toggling > it to BOOT. > > So it's probably unable to access memory. I did try pulling the unibus > map, then the memory, then everything but the terminator. Same response. > Hm. > > I could try re-jumpering my memory board to appear as MUD memory and try > it without the KT24 and see if the problem is there. It's possible. If I > did that would I put the memory in slot 2 or leave it in slot 3? > > The other two boards failed the same way as the first. One of the boards > is a *new* style one with the ASICs onboard, it has three switch boxes, > is there a manual to describe this one? > > I did try to set the switches on the original cpu to match the working > one. The original had > 0,0,0,1 0,0,0,1 (same)?????? 0,0,1,0 0,1,0,0 > Switching thr right switch to 0,1,0,1 does seem to put garbage on the > VT52, so something might be happening. > > I also found a M7850 memory board (1mb, for 11/750, 730, and kind of > 11/70) which I am guessing won't work in the EUB. Anyone want to swap it > for a EUB memory board or a 256K working UNIBUS memory board? > > CZ > > > On 10/20/2020 10:02 PM, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 10/18/2020 10:59 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: >>> Weird. Set all the switches for the 11/24 CPU and Unibus map, and still >>> nothing coming out of the serial port. Figured I would document the >>> settings and see if anyone with an 11/24 can cross-check my settings. >>> >>> Serial: Because my VT52 has a male RS232 end (factory) and the 11/24 has >>> a male RS232 end (factory bulkhead) I am using a female-female null >>> modem cable. This is the same cable I use on the 11/83 CPU and it's >>> known working (along with the VT52). Is this the right type of cable to >>> use? >> >> Yes, I use a null modem cable plugged into the bulkhead connector as >> well. >> >>> >>> Switches on the CPU are: >>> >>> E135: off,off,off,on,off,off,off,on=9600 baud both signal generators. >> >> Same here from what is scribbled in my book >> >>> E124: off,on,on,off (SLU1 use signal gen 1 for tx and rx) >> >> Same Here >> >>> E124 5-8: off,on,off,off (no idea what these are) >> >> I don't know offhand, either, would have to pull the board to check it. >> >>> >>> Slots in use are: >>> 1--M7133 CPU >> >> Same on mine in slot 1, of course >> >>> 2--M7134 KT24 Memory map >> >> Same as mine on slot 2 as well, of course >> >> I have had my system since February, 1988 when a friend and I hauled the >> 11/24, two RK07's a VT100 and? and TU10 out of U Wisconsin Bascom Hall >> for about $600.? I have added many things to the system over the year, >> including a VT11, a DR11C, an Emulex SMD disk controller, etc. >> >> It has had one power supply repair (thanks for advice from, I think, >> Tony Duel about not destroying test equipment while troubleshooting) and >> early on blown SLU1 dirver/receiver chips which I replaced. >> >> After that, I have: >> >> M7891 UNIBUS Memory (256K, I think, presumably addressed for 0). >> G7273 Bus + DMA Grant card >> M7860 DR11C >> M7846 RX01 >> M7762 RL11 >> .... >> and other stuff >> .... >> Ending with at VT11 containing an M9302 Boot/terminator >> >> SLU1 Interface config,? J3 >> >> W1 IN (1 stop bit) >> W5, W7 OUT (disable parity detection) >> W6, W8 OUT (no parity is generated) >> >> E124 >> >> 1 OFF, 2 ON, 3 ON, 4 OFF >> ??? SLU1 and SLU2 both Baud Rate 1 >> >> >> E135 >> >> 9600 Baud (S1, S2, S3 OFF, S4 ON)? (Baud Rate 1) >> 9600 Baud (S5, S6, S& OFF, S8 ON)? (Baud Rate 2) >> >> >> 1 J2 Pin 13 + 18 >> 2 J2 Pin 11 (EM2) >> 3 J2 Pin 1 (FM2) >> 4 N/C >> 5 N/C >> 6 N/C >> 7 J2 Pin 20 >> 8 ----? (I wrote this - probably meant N/C) >> 9 ---- >> 10 ---- >> 11 J2 Pin 12 >> 12 J2 Pin 6 >> 13 thru 19 ---- >> 20 J2 Pin 16 >> 21 - 24 ---- >> 25 J2 Pin 13 + 18 >> >> SLU2 Interface config >> >> Originally:? Just pin 2 to J2 2+4 >> >> Baud Rate 2: W9 OUT, W10 IN, W11 OUT, W12 IN, W4 OUT >> >> To support a TU-58 on SLU2 I added >> >> J4 3-8??????? J5 2-3 >> J4 4-7??????? J5 1-7 >> >> >> >> CPU Module Jumpers (I believe, but would have to verify) >> >> W2 OUT (power up via location 24, so usually it halts) >> W3 IN? (allows halt in Kernel mode) >> W14 IN (Boot address 165000) >> >> UNIBUS MAP Jumpers >> >> TP11, TP12 presumably OUT(enables diagnostic ROM) >> W13 presumably IN (enables diagnostic ROM) >> >> I can't see Switch E58 without pulling the board to see.? Same, of >> course, with the jumpers.? I expect they are factory default. >> >> NOTE: A a test, I swapped in a CPU 23-001C7AA, >> Floating Point, 23-002C7AA and Memory Map chip 21-15542-01 from >> a PDP-11/23, and they naturally worked fine. >> >> >>> 3--M7891 MS11-L memory (configured for extended unibus), green light on, >>> red light off >>> 4,5,6--G727 >>> 7-M7982 TS11 tape controller >>> 8 M8256 RX02 controller >>> 9 M9302 terminator and G7273 board >>> >>> When powered on in HALT mode the 11/24 CPU board has the third LED on. >>> Go to RUN stays on. Go to boot, LED goes off. If the unit is turned on >>> with the switch in RUN, the light is out. >>> >>> MS11-L has a green light on at all times. When I forgot the 9302 it had >>> a red light on as well, but plugging that in and restarting cleared the >>> red light on the memory. >> >> Let me know if you want me to go thru the process of >> >> 1) Powering on my system (been just a bit over a year) to do basic checks >> >> 2) Pull the boards and document >> >> 3) Put them back and do basic checks again. >> >> JRJ >> 2) >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Oct 22 19:49:10 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 20:49:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? Message-ID: <20201023004910.BC9C018C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > My guess is the H215 has two more core fields on it I uploaded a (crappy - sigh) image of an H215 I have to here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:H215-core-memory-board.jpg and it's clearly not symmetrical, but does have a slightly bugger blank space than yours. It has a label that says "18x8K" (so 16 bits plus byte parity - for DATOB bus write operations to one byte at a time), which sounds orrect. > Odd they could fit up to 20 bits, maybe an early ECC (16b+4 ECC?) No, this way pre-dates ECC memory (the cost of the extra bits - more cores to string in - was probably more than it was worth), and probably before ECC disks too (I think the first DEC ECC disk was the RP04). > I'll bet that it could work in the 11/05 if one of those boards ever > blow out. That's my guess too; _but_ there might be some jumpering/etc issues to adjust the word width. I.e. the PDP-11 parity H215 is 18 bits wide, which is right for 16-bit words, whereas PDP-10 parity memory would be 36+1 parity bit = 37 bits wide. So there might be 2 banks on one of those cards, and the PDP-11 memory treats them as separate banks, whereas on a -10 they'd be ganged together in parallel. (Whether that's all done on the companion driver boards, and the H21x card would just bring the wiring of the two banks out to the edge connector in parallel, letting the driver board do what it wants, I don't know - you'd have to look at the MM11-L engineering drawings/TM.) The other possibility is that the PDP-10 memory used these boards in pairs. We do have the MA10 Maint Manual, but in a quick look it looks like it doesn't use these boards. So maybe a later -10 memory system? Noel From cramcram at gmail.com Thu Oct 22 17:01:59 2020 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 15:01:59 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Why couldn't you get a piece of #20 wire and strip off an inch or so. Bend it into a U to block out two pins. It might need #18 or #22 but you get the idea. Marc On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:31 AM brian--- via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect > standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? Maybe there exist jumper plugs that > *don't > *conduct across the two pins? I'm looking at a piece of hardware that has > some jumper pins on top of the PC board and I'd like to protect against > anything accidentally making contact. I have seen surface mount 0.05 pitch > pin headers come from their manufacturer with protective caps, but I > haven't been able to find anything to apply to 0.1" pin headers that I > could by aftermarket. > > Any ideas would be appreciated! > thanks > brian > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Thu Oct 22 17:08:49 2020 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 22:08:49 +0000 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> , Message-ID: I?ve just stripped off a short piece of insulation from hookup wire and slipped it over the pin.Fits tight and can be removed and it's cheap. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 22, 2020, at 14:33, Maciej W. Rozycki via cctalk wrote: > > ?On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >>> A variation on the connector idea: use an insulation-displacement type >>> connector (the kind that you mount onto a flat cable assembly) without >>> the cable. Just snap on the cover over the i-d pins and you have a >>> fully insulated assembly with the pins acting as spring clamps for the >>> jumper pins. >> >> That's not terribly useful when you have only one or two positions to >> protect, is it? > > Following the idea however you can use a wire-to-board connector housing > like from Harwin M20 series with just empty contacts inserted. They are > widely available and start from 1x1 even. > > > > Maciej From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Thu Oct 22 17:36:54 2020 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 22:36:54 +0000 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> , , Message-ID: And environmentally conscious because it?s recycling. -: Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 22, 2020, at 15:21, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > ?On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Wayne S wrote: > >> I?ve just stripped off a short piece of insulation from hookup wire and >> slipped it over the pin.Fits tight and can be removed and it's cheap. > > I guess it's as cheap as you can get. :) > > Maciej From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Oct 22 23:07:08 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 05:07:08 +0100 (BST) Subject: FYI sunhelp.org down In-Reply-To: <6592558b-9f4a-3a1f-30ca-eee5f8fb14aa@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <9f76fd7a-af00-b0f7-008c-28ca6fe7c974@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <6592558b-9f4a-3a1f-30ca-eee5f8fb14aa@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 14 Oct 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I suppose the list server relies on the same nameservers in a way that > > prevents e-mail distribution from happening. > > I don't think so. At least I thought that the hot wiring that I did to my > mail server only effected /sending/ of email. > > The changes I made to the DNS server would have effected /receiving/ of email. > > I have successfully sent a message to the geeks at sunhelp mailing list /and/ > received my copy of said message from said mailing list. > > > I have since resubmitted the same message manually to sunhelp.org's SMTP > > receiver (the original message is still in the outgoing mail queue: > > > > smtp/sunhelp.org: B/W/23993316: (196 tries, expires in 2d17h) smtp; 466 (No > > DNS response for host: sunhelp.org; h_errno=0) > > > > ) to see what happens and got a DSN ack even, but the message did > > not get through. > > Were you sending a message to geeks at sunhelp or a different address? It was to . The resubmitted message eventually made it through last Tue, Oct 20th, after a week of being held: Received: from ohno.mrbill.net ([184.94.207.190]:57765 "EHLO ohno.mrbill.net" rhost-flags-OK-FAIL-OK-FAIL) by eddie.linux-mips.org with ESMTP id S23991030AbgJTMxVN8USJ (ORCPT ); Tue, 20 Oct 2020 14:53:21 +0200 Received: from ohno.mrbill.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by ohno.mrbill.net (Postfix) with ESMTP id E173B1E0DF9; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 22:55:12 -0500 (CDT) X-Original-To: rescue at sunhelp.org Delivered-To: rescue at mrbill.net Received: from cvs.linux-mips.org (eddie.linux-mips.org [148.251.95.138]) (using TLSv1 with cipher AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by ohno.mrbill.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 84C0D1E0915 for ; Tue, 13 Oct 2020 22:55:10 -0500 (CDT) which I think does coincide with the revival of mrbill.net services: Domain Name: MRBILL.NET Registry Domain ID: 1373333_DOMAIN_NET-VRSN Registrar WHOIS Server: whois.namecheap.com Registrar URL: http://www.namecheap.com Updated Date: 2020-10-19T15:39:08Z and makes me conclude my suspicion was right. > > So local hot wiring of name resolution (which I suppose could be as easy as > > adding a /etc/hosts entry rather than going through the hoops of setting up > > a manipulated name server) might be good enough to get at the web pages, but > > not to get the list going. > > Ya ... email tends to be more reliant on DNS. At least unless you explicitly > tell it to not use it for specific domains. And that's exactly what I did. I > hard (hot) wired email routing so that email for sunhelp.org goes to > ohno.mrbill.net, which is resolvable do to my DNS hot wiring (forwarders). I wish it was the case. The admin of linux-mips.org, a friend of mine, has vanished since the outbreak of the COVID-19 pandemic in Europe last March -- I do hope nothing wrong has happened to him and he does surface sometime. Anyway, he's the only one who can remove a stale /etc/hosts entry here for vger.kernel.org, which prevents me from posting to any Linux kernel mailing lists hosted there unless I resort to some horrible hacks, which in turn tend to randomly break sending e-mail elsewhere. Sigh... Maciej From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Oct 22 23:20:57 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 22 Oct 2020 21:20:57 -0700 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: <03cc0dd4-d182-8458-5edc-7c7b76143aa7@frontier.com> <1459fe7e-b5fd-8e24-79cd-84d4c2bcc183@sydex.com> <4A86899A-1420-4EF6-A38B-ED4C25408B09@comcast.net> Message-ID: <965eafc9-81e8-ca37-195f-077e5c1a1bd8@jwsss.com> On 10/22/2020 3:36 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > And environmentally > conscious because it?s recycling. -: > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Oct 22, 2020, at 15:21, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: >> >> ?On Thu, 22 Oct 2020, Wayne S wrote: >> >>> I?ve just stripped off a short piece of insulation from hookup wire and >>> slipped it over the pin.Fits tight and can be removed and it's cheap. >> I guess it's as cheap as you can get. :) >> >> Maciej Some controllers which were made for such as SASI to MFM, and QIC and the like had place holder jumpers on all the pinned connections because they were not being packaged by the vendors, and having customers package them in odd places left the chance that they could have things drop on those connections. Also on boards which are conformal coated they are common as well when used.?? Usually with some other means to secure the option area. thanks jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Oct 23 10:48:31 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:48:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? Message-ID: <20201023154831.0F50E18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > (Whether that's all done on the companion driver boards, and the H21x > card would just bring the wiring of the two banks out to the edge > connector in parallel, letting the driver board do what it wants, I > don't know - you'd have to look at the MM11-L engineering drawings/TM.) > The other possibility is that the PDP-10 memory used these boards in > pairs. It's not either! First, I looked at the MM11-L TM, and it talks about how the H214 has "mats" (2D arrays of cores), 1 mat per bit; the H214 has 16 mats. So definitely no effectively 36+ bit wide variant. So, pairs? Well, I looked to see what PDP-10 memory TM's were extant, and there's one for the MF10 (A-MN-MF10-0-MAN-1); and glancing in it, it _does_ use the H216 - with "19 mats" to produce "19-bit word memory banks"! (Exactly how, I didn't have time to stop and read. It's got to be pairs, but at the bank level, not board.) So our guess as to which generation of PDP-10 memories it was used in might have been wrong... Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 12:57:01 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 11:57:01 -0600 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: <20201021122206.h36o7jxxi7sjdb7x@Update.UU.SE> References: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> <20201021122206.h36o7jxxi7sjdb7x@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 6:22 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Oct 20, 2020 at 11:26:22PM -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > > Or maybe a PDP-15? 18 bits plus parity. > > > > Possible, did the pdp15 use that type of board? > > > > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like > the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L > The ME15 memory for the PDP-15 used that kind of memory, but it normally used an 18-bit H215. I think there was another variant that offered parity that would have used the 19-bit H216. There might have been PDP-15 memory earlier than the ME15, but at the time of the PDP-15 introduction (1970), H21x core planes were used in most DEC machines, so it would have been surprising for them to use something else. Perhaps some PDP-15 systems were upgrades from the PDP-9, which used memory modules similar to the PDP-8/I. From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Oct 23 14:35:38 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 13:35:38 -0600 Subject: The weird stuff I keep finding: 19 bit core memory? In-Reply-To: References: <00c3ec76-b62a-8904-508b-f264f1a7abba@charter.net> <20201021122206.h36o7jxxi7sjdb7x@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Fri, Oct 23, 2020 at 11:57 AM Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Oct 21, 2020 at 6:22 AM Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have seen PDP-15 core memory and it is not that format. It looks like >> > the memory modules from a PDP-8/I or -8/L >> > > The ME15 memory for the PDP-15 used that kind of memory [H215/H216], but > it normally used an 18-bit H215. I think there was another variant that > offered parity that would have used the 19-bit H216. > > There might have been PDP-15 memory earlier than the ME15, but at the time > of the PDP-15 introduction (1970), H21x core planes were used in most DEC > machines, so it would have been surprising for them to use something else. > Perhaps some PDP-15 systems were upgrades from the PDP-9, which used memory > modules similar to the PDP-8/I. > The PDP-15 print set on Bitsavers shows that the original PDP-15 memory was the MM15, which was in fact very similar to the PDP-8/I memory, and was available with or without parity. The ME15 must have been developed for later PDP-15 systems, and used the newer H215 core stack. I can't find any evidence of a parity version of that, which if it existed would have used the H216. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Oct 23 18:24:17 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 24 Oct 2020 01:24:17 +0200 Subject: non-shunting jumpers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20201023232417.GA9670@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Oct 22, 2020 at 11:30:40AM -0700, brian--- via cctalk wrote: > Oddball question here: has anyone ever seen a way to cap off or protect > standard 0.1" pin header jumpers? I prefer to not leave boards in places where stuff like pin headers can be damaged. And really, pin headers are the least of your worries: they're easy to replace and dirt cheap, unlike some of the more delicate and exotic components. [...] > Any ideas would be appreciated! You can use what is colloquially known as a "DuPont connector", which is designed to mate with pin headers. They're more typically used to run wires to pin headers -- for example the front panel lights and buttons on a PC -- but you can skip the wires when you only need a mechanical rather than electrical connection. A starter kit with the special crimp tool, header shells, and male and female pins to fit in the shells costs around ?30 from Amazon. Don't do what I did and try and cut corners by just buying a cheap box of shells and pins and assuming you can wing it with a regular crimp tool or pliers, because that just results in a knackered connector and another Amazon order. The kit will come with a variety of header shells and not just the 1x2 of jumpers. Given that pin headers are quite gregarious, you'll find the larger shells useful for capping and/or configuring multiple jumpers in parallel. From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Oct 23 19:07:49 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 23 Oct 2020 20:07:49 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Progress-ish In-Reply-To: References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> And "in the meantime" I figured something was wrong on the Unibus, so I pulled all of the cards except CPU, memory, and the 9302 terminator. Still flunks in any memory references in ODT. Weird. Then I pulled the memory card so it was just the CPU. Same thing. Then I figured might as well put the memory back, and pull the terminator. Sure enough, memory board LED goes red.... But the CPU can now read and write to memory locations via ODT. Loading 100 into location 0 works, and I can read location 0 and now see 100. That's weird. It looks like the problem is using a 9302 terminator instead of a 9312. Is there differences between the 930, 9302, 9312, and other terminators by chance (yes, it's in the last slot in the AB slot). Weird. But getting closer every day... C From dstalk at execulink.com Sun Oct 25 07:26:29 2020 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 08:26:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC RTM book Message-ID: <20201025122629.BB629BEEBCC@cel2.x> I've searched for this but couldn't find it... Does anyone know if the DEC book "RTM: Register Transfer Modules" published in 1973 is available online? It's an 8.5 x 11 book with red cover and has 50 pages. I think it came with their RTM kit. Don From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sun Oct 25 11:58:17 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 09:58:17 -0700 Subject: R65F11 Message-ID: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Anyone remember the R65F11? It's a Forth microcontroller: 6502 processor with a Forth kernel in ROM, from the mid '80s. I was going through some old stuff in storage (looking for something else) and found an R65F11 with the development ROM and some documentation for building a development board. Looks like a fun little project... I have plenty of projects. If anyone is interested, it's free for actual cost of shipping (could probably go in a U.S. Priority Mail envelope or small box, not sure about overseas options). The backstory: in 1984 I was working for a startup company, and we were looking at various microprocessors for use in a new product. Being a fairly skilled journeyman Forth programmer, I was advocating for the R65F11. I managed to talk the Rockwell sales rep into giving us the development ROM (usually not easily available). We ended up going with a 68000 for the project, and I ended up with the R65F11. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Oct 25 12:21:46 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 11:21:46 -0600 Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On 10/25/2020 10:58 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Anyone remember the R65F11? It's a Forth microcontroller: 6502 > processor with a Forth kernel in ROM, from the mid '80s. > > I was going through some old stuff in storage (looking for something > else) and found an R65F11 with the development ROM and some > documentation for building a development board. Looks like a fun little > project... I have plenty of projects. 6502.org may good place to place documents if you got them, after BitSavers. Ben. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Oct 25 13:41:20 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 13:41:20 -0500 (CDT) Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <781245247.160976.1603651280975@email.ionos.com> > On 10/25/2020 11:58 AM Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > > Anyone remember the R65F11? It's a Forth microcontroller: 6502 > processor with a Forth kernel in ROM, from the mid '80s. > Your hometown magazine, ETI, ran several articles about it at irregular intervals. The first was a development board in May 85: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/Australia/80s/ETI%201985-05%20May.pdf In Dec 85 they added a disk drive: https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/Australia/80s/ETI%201985-12%20December.pdf Will From doug at doughq.com Sun Oct 25 16:53:21 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:53:21 +1100 Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: <781245247.160976.1603651280975@email.ionos.com> References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> <781245247.160976.1603651280975@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: WOW!! I Have one of those ETI boards, and I based my final Electronics Engineering project on its big brother, the 65F12. >From memory, I spent days trying to understand why you had to issue a HEX 1800 MEMTOP command before using the disk. ETI Suggested that it was because the system had to know where the top of memory was, but it was because of a bug in that version of the kernel. The 65F11 had all of the headless primitive in kernel rom, and used a development ROM that contained the higher level words. I Loved the concept, but the silicon was expensive and as it turned out, rara. Nobody knows anything about these chips. At Uni, we hav Novix NC4016 dev boards with FDD support - they were FAST... One cycle could see the CPU read the next instruction, write a byte to the stack, and write a byte to I/O - all because it used three (or 4) separate busses. I'm here in Australia, and would merrily give it a home. :-) Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Mon, 26 Oct 2020 at 05:41, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > On 10/25/2020 11:58 AM Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Anyone remember the R65F11? It's a Forth microcontroller: 6502 > > processor with a Forth kernel in ROM, from the mid '80s. > > > > Your hometown magazine, ETI, ran several articles about it at irregular > intervals. The first was a development board in May 85: > https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/Australia/80s/ETI%201985-05%20May.pdf > > In Dec 85 they added a disk drive: > > https://worldradiohistory.com/Archive-Electronics-Today/Australia/80s/ETI%201985-12%20December.pdf > > Will > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Sun Oct 25 20:01:10 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 21:01:10 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Working-ish! In-Reply-To: <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> Ok, so now the three old style 11/24 CPU boards seem to be working. Ish. The problem with the processor boards turned out to be the switches: On my original 11/24 board it would work only at 19200. This is because the switch pack is dirty and the contacts ain't working. Solution: Spray 95% isopropyl alcohol right into the switch housing from the top with all switches set to off. Then toggle the switches, then toggle again, spray again, and set them. Board 1 now works at 9600 baud. Board 3 was a bit more odd: It didn't do anything at any baud. So I set both switch packs to all off, then did the above cleaning, then set them properly and sure enough it comes up into ODT at 9600 baud. The last board is a new style 11/24 and it doesn't do anything but it does have three switch packs. So I just need to find the manual for it, set the switches, and give it a try. In the meantime the UNIBUS problem also appears to be fixed: The problem was that sure enough: One of the memory slot SPC's (4) did not have the DMA jumper. Found it pretty quickly with a continuity meter and checking slot C pins 1,3 (top) for continuity. On the good side slot 9 does have a DMA jumper, so I simply put the RX02 controller in slot 4, put the G727 in slot 7, then put the TS11 controller (hex) in slot 8, then a knucklebuster in slot 9 along with the 9302 terminator and all works great. Isn't UNIBUS simple! Sorry, Q-Bus doesn't need a terminator, doesn't have weird DMA stuff, and if you really need to put a card on a particular side you can always grab a DLV11 (everyone has these) and use it as a spacer. Anyone even know why Q-Bus doesn't need termination; they used to do it with say the BDV11 but they just stopped doing it after awhile. Next step is to put the 11/24 away for the week and order a good 10 feet of 40 pin ribbon cable so I can make an extension cable for the RX02. Then I should be able to plug that in, set the RX02 to RX02 mode on the drive (it's hooked to the 11/93's RXV11 now), key in a bootstrap from the console, and see if I can boot an RX02 RT11 floppy. Question: Can an RX02 boot an RX01 floppy formatted single density with the DY: driver? Can it read an RX02 floppy in one drive and an RX01 floppy in the other or do you have to set the switches and use the right controller card (that would be stupid, but sooooo DEC!) Thanks everyone here and on the Discord for the help Getting there bit by bit. On 10/23/2020 8:07 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > And "in the meantime" I figured something was wrong on the Unibus, so I > pulled all of the cards except CPU, memory, and the 9302 terminator. > > Still flunks in any memory references in ODT. Weird. > > Then I pulled the memory card so it was just the CPU. Same thing. > > Then I figured might as well put the memory back, and pull the > terminator. Sure enough, memory board LED goes red.... > > But the CPU can now read and write to memory locations via ODT. Loading > 100 into location 0 works, and I can read location 0 and now see 100. > > That's weird. It looks like the problem is using a 9302 terminator > instead of a 9312. Is there differences between the 930, 9302, 9312, and > other terminators by chance (yes, it's in the last slot in the AB slot). > > Weird. But getting closer every day... > > C From jsw at ieee.org Sun Oct 25 21:56:41 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 21:56:41 -0500 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Working-ish! In-Reply-To: <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <25785c56-cba3-b2cc-bcae-2b8a92e859f7@ieee.org> On 10/25/20 8:01 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > ..... > Question: Can an RX02 boot an RX01 floppy formatted single density > with the DY: driver? Can it read an RX02 floppy in one drive and an > RX01 floppy in the other or do you have to set the switches and use > the right controller card (that would be stupid, but sooooo DEC!) > > Thanks everyone here and on the Discord for the help Getting there bit > by bit. > Well done on sorting this out.? As to the RX02 questions.... An RX02 drive in RX02 mode can read either DEC single or double density media in either drive. If the RX01 media has a DY handler (RT11) configured as primary boot, it "may" be possible.? It will definitely not work with the DX handler configured.?? To do this, you also need a different ODT/ROM bootstrap. I have pulled one I have in my files and pasted it below. I do not remember the source, but looks like someone has tried this before. ?? Jerry RX02 Single Density Bootstrap Address??? Contents 001000??? 012700 001002??? 100240 001004??? 012701 001006??? 177170 001010??? 005002 001012??? 012705 001014??? 000100 001016??? 012704 001020??? 000401 001022??? 012703 001024??? 177172 001026??? 030011 001030??? 001776 001032??? 100437 001034??? 012711 001036??? 000007 001040??? 030011 001042??? 001776 001044??? 100432 001046??? 110413 001050??? 000304 001052??? 030011 001054??? 001776 001056??? 110413 001060??? 000304 001062??? 030011 001064??? 001776 001066??? 100421 001070??? 012711 001072??? 000003 001074??? 030011 001076??? 001776 001100??? 100414 001102??? 010513 001104??? 030011 001106??? 001776 001110??? 100410 001112??? 010213 001114??? 060502 001116??? 060502 001120??? 122424 001122??? 120427 001124??? 000007 001126??? 003735 001130??? 012700 001132??? 000000 001134??? 005007 001136??? 000000 From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Oct 26 11:01:43 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 09:01:43 -0700 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote Message-ID: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> http://mnembler.com/computers_mini_stories.html "George Dragner always wore a belt with a metal dragon buckle. He was a colorful character known for pissing off management. His most famous act was tossing a chair through the window at a customer site. The customer refused to believe that the lack of humidity in the room was screwing up his magnetic tape media. As the tape heads depend on the moisture from the air to prevent the magnetic oxide from being torn off the media from the friction during a rewind. George broke the window to prove his point. He was right ! " There is a minimum RH specified for tape, but "tape heads depend on the moisture from the air" ?? From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Sun Oct 25 12:06:32 2020 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 10:06:32 -0700 Subject: DEC mouse Message-ID: <1603645592.7154.19.camel@moondog> Looking to complete a period-correct DEC workstation? Missing the right mouse? Have I got a deal for you! Digital 3-button mouse part number 30-44445-01 rev. C02. PS/2 connector, ball mechanism (not one of those fancy new things with the red light on the bottom). Free for actual cost of shipping. This wasn't what I was looking for in storage either. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Oct 26 04:32:42 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 02:32:42 -0700 Subject: IBM 360/30 panel, animated, restored Message-ID: <4ca50578-5b12-2ca1-d3a9-d1477ab57238@jwsss.com> This popped up on the radar tonight (on mine anyway). IBM System 360 30 Console animated mainframe CPU Console 360/30 https://www.ebay.com/itm/324348449949 A bit pricey, but pretty. Luckily I landed one of the boards to run Larry W's emulation of the 2030 , which will be satisfying for me.? (And thanks for releasing that work). Thanks Jim From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Oct 25 12:13:35 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 25 Oct 2020 12:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <1689336709.456016.1603646015259@email.ionos.com> > On 10/25/2020 11:58 AM Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Interesting! Just over the last few days I have been going through old issues of ETI (Electronics Today International, the original Australian version) from 1985/86 that included a series of articles on the R65F11 and R65F12. I have long wanted to play with one, as far back as the 80s. It would be really neat to play with, especially with the development rom. Alas, I have WAY too many "neat to play with " things surrounding me now. But it's a neat gadget. I hope someone takes it and does something neat with it. ETI: https://worldradiohistory.com/ETI_Magazine-AU.htm Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with// " --?https://isocpp.org From tangentdelta at protonmail.com Sun Oct 25 19:29:28 2020 From: tangentdelta at protonmail.com (TangentDelta) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 00:29:28 +0000 Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Message-ID: Rockwell also had an RSC-FORTH Kernel and development environment ROM set for the R6501Q, which is a similar 6502-based processor meant for embedded applications. http://www.smallestplcoftheworld.org/RSC-FORTH_User%27s_Manual.pdf Here's the RSC-FORTH manual, which covers the different types of RSC-FORTH. From pat at vax11.net Mon Oct 26 08:32:14 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 09:32:14 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Working-ish! In-Reply-To: <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 9:01 PM Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Isn't UNIBUS simple! Sorry, Q-Bus doesn't need a terminator, doesn't > have weird DMA stuff, and if you really need to put a card on a > particular side you can always grab a DLV11 (everyone has these) and use > it as a spacer. Anyone even know why Q-Bus doesn't need termination; > they used to do it with say the BDV11 but they just stopped doing it > after awhile. > I suspect that you don't "need" termination on the QBUS if it's short (ie a single backplane), maybe a couple of feet of wire length. The UNIBUS generally had a much longer bus (10s of feet isn't atypical for a well configured system), so reflection would have been more of a problem. Pat From poc at pocnet.net Mon Oct 26 15:28:37 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 21:28:37 +0100 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3CC010E6-3CD9-4972-B4B7-DC0040A22E9D@pocnet.net> Hello Al, Am 26.10.2020 um 17:01 schrieb Al Kossow via cctalk : > There is a minimum RH specified for tape, but "tape heads depend on the moisture from the air" ?? First of all, my experiences are from ancient audio reel-to-reel tape. So maybe I?m wrong. Also add the fact that ?screwing up? is not a precise description of what actually happened with the tapes? I guess that not enough moisture can probably brittle the plastic film, the magnetic coating has been applied to. Some plastic can absorb humidity. If you add this to the high speed the tape reels were wound, I could imagine that a really dry environment can affect tapes. I can?t come up with an idea in which way the tape head could be adding to the ?screwing?. :wq! PoC From boris at summitclinic.com Mon Oct 26 20:30:18 2020 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 17:30:18 -0800 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20201027013023.2805F27468@mx1.ezwind.net> Thanks for that Al. Never thought about humidity and mag tapes as only time I used to backup data to 9 track tapes was in Vancouver where humidity always high. Also used Time Shoppa's and Kevin McGuigan's drives to extract data from those tapes in Vancouver. Doubt I'll be copying any more of my mag tapes but will definitely keep that in mind in case I do that in Kamloops where RH quite low in winter. Have a humidity sensor in my guitar case as have to moisten a sponge every few weeks to go in guitar so wood doesn't crack. Can detect shrinkage of wood by increase in resonant frequency of strings increasing as wood shrinks. Also take extreme care when touching any non-TTL IC during winter here. >http://mnembler.com/computers_mini_stories.html > >"George Dragner always wore a belt with a metal dragon buckle. He >was a colorful character known for pissing off management. His most >famous act was tossing a chair through the window at a customer >site. The customer refused to believe that the lack of humidity in >the room was screwing up his magnetic tape media. As the tape heads >depend on the moisture from the air to prevent the magnetic oxide >from being torn off the media from the friction during a rewind. >George broke the window to prove his point. He was right ! " > >There is a minimum RH specified for tape, but "tape heads depend on >the moisture from the air" ?? From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 26 20:31:29 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 21:31:29 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Memory sad! In-Reply-To: <25785c56-cba3-b2cc-bcae-2b8a92e859f7@ieee.org> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> <25785c56-cba3-b2cc-bcae-2b8a92e859f7@ieee.org> Message-ID: Ok, so I'm now troubleshooting the memory parity errors in the MS11-L memory. And yes, there are bit errors in the memory. I wrote a simple program to check the first 64k bank and I've found errors in bit 2 but not everywhere but on a predictable pattern of addresses. Interesting, possible that one of the address drivers is shot in that particular chip.. Checking the board I can see that most of the chips are ITT chips, 21 16935 01. However I can also see that this is not this board's first rodeo, as several chips have been replaced with ITT chips 8411x 21 14897 01 models. Is there an equiv model for these chips that can be found? Looks like a 16k*1 16 pin MOS ram chip with +12,+5,and -5 voltages (wow!). I guess if they can't be found I can pull chips from the parity section and just ignore parity but I'd prefer not to desolder/resolder chips. As they say, it ain't gonna fix itself so I might as well get going on it. ;-) CZ From jsw at ieee.org Mon Oct 26 20:42:41 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 20:42:41 -0500 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Memory sad! In-Reply-To: References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> <25785c56-cba3-b2cc-bcae-2b8a92e859f7@ieee.org> Message-ID: <73b20b66-be95-32d2-9f13-346861bb3cdf@ieee.org> On 10/26/20 8:31 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Ok, so I'm now troubleshooting the memory parity errors in the MS11-L > memory. And yes, there are bit errors in the memory. I wrote a simple > program to check the first 64k bank and I've found errors in bit 2 but > not everywhere but on a predictable pattern of addresses. Interesting, > possible that one of the address drivers is shot in that particular > chip.. > > Checking the board I can see that most of the chips are ITT chips, 21 > 16935 01. However I can also see that this is not this board's first > rodeo, as several chips have been replaced with ITT chips 8411x 21 > 14897 01 models. > > Is there an equiv model for these chips that can be found? Looks like > a 16k*1 16 pin MOS ram chip with +12,+5,and -5 voltages (wow!). I > guess if they can't be found I can pull chips from the parity section > and just ignore parity but I'd prefer not to desolder/resolder chips. > > As they say, it ain't gonna fix itself so I might as well get going on > it. ;-) > > CZ I have used this site to help me determine substitutes for memory chips - http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/memory/ram.htm ? Jerry From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Oct 26 21:17:00 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 22:17:00 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Memory sad! In-Reply-To: <73b20b66-be95-32d2-9f13-346861bb3cdf@ieee.org> References: <20201016181112.6D6F818C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4a778745-7295-fc83-8bb8-2ac07d6ee68f@alembic.crystel.com> <05b841f9-51bd-acb7-5496-de9db92fdde4@alembic.crystel.com> <08f8b648-9dcb-4c4c-a766-88d6d4160672@alembic.crystel.com> <7aad1b97-dfdd-8a17-1a04-fb592a6dd8e6@alembic.crystel.com> <25785c56-cba3-b2cc-bcae-2b8a92e859f7@ieee.org> <73b20b66-be95-32d2-9f13-346861bb3cdf@ieee.org> Message-ID: <83a8899c-ca34-daf1-20c0-861e0b1826c1@alembic.crystel.com> Oh, they're just 4116's then. That's simple, as someone pointed out on Discord Jameco sells them so I just bought 10 and 10 low profile sockets. The other alternative was pulling apart one of my MSV11-D boards from the Q-Bus world but that would be sad... :-) From nico at farumdata.dk Tue Oct 27 00:50:12 2020 From: nico at farumdata.dk (nico de jong) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 06:50:12 +0100 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> Hi all, Back in the early 70's I was an operator on an IBM 360/40 with 4 tapedrives. Nobody could understand that sometimes a tape transfer would stop saying "end of tape", mainly around 3 PM, when not called for. It was mainly one specific drive, but its two neighbours, one on each side, could also behave like this. Tape drive specialists visitied us, scratched their heads, and went off again. When the blinds were rolled down, the error disappeared. The reason for the strange behaviour was that the sun could shine into the machine room when it was in a specific position, so it could send some light into the drive, where the tape then reflected the light into the sensor, making it believe that it had met the end-of-tape marker. /Nico OZ 1 BMC On 2020-10-26 17:01, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > http://mnembler.com/computers_mini_stories.html > > "George Dragner always wore a belt with a metal dragon buckle.? He was > a colorful character known for pissing off management.? His most > famous act was tossing a chair through the window at a customer site. > The customer refused to believe that the lack of humidity in the room > was screwing up his magnetic tape media.? As the tape heads depend on > the moisture from the air to prevent the magnetic oxide from being > torn off the media from the friction during a rewind. George broke the > window to prove his point.? He was right ! " > > There is a minimum RH specified for tape, but "tape heads depend on > the moisture from the air"? ?? > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Oct 27 01:24:58 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 23:24:58 -0700 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <0c3c72c4d4c3f5b7960b25423ca03876fd69a02f.camel@shiresoft.com> We had a similar problem when I was at IBM and we were developing a follow on to the PC/AT (it never shipped). We had a bunch of prototypes in the lab running tests with stepper HDDs (rather than voice coils) We kept having disk errors (failure to find track 0) when running tests. It took us a while to figure several things out: 1) all of the machines were run with their covers off 2) all of the machines that failed were by the windows 3) the failures always happened at a particular time of day After a bit of head scratching we discovered that the tack 0 sensor was optical and at that particular time of day the sun at a particular angle did not allow the sensor to register that the drive was at track 0. TTFN - Guy On Tue, 2020-10-27 at 06:50 +0100, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Back in the early 70's I was an operator on an IBM 360/40 with 4 > tapedrives. Nobody could understand that sometimes a tape transfer > would > stop saying "end of tape", mainly around 3 PM, when not called for. > It > was mainly one specific drive, but its two neighbours, one on each > side, > could also behave like this. Tape drive specialists visitied us, > scratched their heads, and went off again. When the blinds were > rolled > down, the error disappeared. The reason for the strange behaviour > was > that the sun could shine into the machine room when it was in a > specific > position, so it could send some light into the drive, where the tape > then reflected the light into the sensor, making it believe that it > had > met the end-of-tape marker. > > /Nico OZ 1 BMC > > On 2020-10-26 17:01, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > > http://mnembler.com/computers_mini_stories.html > > > > "George Dragner always wore a belt with a metal dragon buckle. He > > was > > a colorful character known for pissing off management. His most > > famous act was tossing a chair through the window at a customer > > site. > > The customer refused to believe that the lack of humidity in the > > room > > was screwing up his magnetic tape media. As the tape heads depend > > on > > the moisture from the air to prevent the magnetic oxide from being > > torn off the media from the friction during a rewind. George broke > > the > > window to prove his point. He was right ! " > > > > There is a minimum RH specified for tape, but "tape heads depend > > on > > the moisture from the air" ?? > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Oct 27 03:48:26 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 01:48:26 -0700 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <64f84e79-9173-4acb-80a5-904ea6769e21@jwsss.com> On 10/26/2020 10:50 PM, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > IBM 360/40 with 4 tapedrives. the 3420 drives and I suspect their predecessors which were more common on the 360s used one light bulb to run the light from one bulb all over the drive. The 3420's we had had a big box of spaghetti tubing which were the light pipes to service our ?drives.? I had the box somewhere when we shut down.? The 3420s and 3803 went one way, the most of the service spares were abandoned. There were a lot of weird problems with light sensors on those drives.? We had some on our 360/50 at UMR as well, but the 2314 disk drives were more entertaining with hydraulic failures. thanks Jim PS: when googling ran across this site using an interesting graphic with interesting peripherals. https://serverpartswarehouse.com/100-oem-ibm-9348-001-magnetic-tape-unit/ PPS:? 2420 drive reference page for that half inch drive. https://www.ibm.com/ibm/history/exhibits/storage/storage_2420.html From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Oct 27 03:51:00 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 01:51:00 -0700 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <0c3c72c4d4c3f5b7960b25423ca03876fd69a02f.camel@shiresoft.com> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> <0c3c72c4d4c3f5b7960b25423ca03876fd69a02f.camel@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <3040bf9a-d1f1-df08-bea7-239b11770de8@jwsss.com> On 10/26/2020 11:24 PM, Guy Sotomayor via cctalk wrote: > It took us a while to figure several things out: > 1) all of the machines were run with their covers off I asked one of the mechanical / packaging guys at Microdata one time what the hardest part of making the cabinets and mechanical systems. His response:? Making it still run with the cover on.? Mostly heat problems and how to get it out w/o too much noise (in some cases), and cost. Thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Oct 27 09:50:58 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 09:50:58 -0500 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> Message-ID: <5F9833D2.2040301@pico-systems.com> On 10/27/2020 12:50 AM, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > Hi all, > > Back in the early 70's I was an operator on an IBM 360/40 > with 4 tapedrives. Nobody could understand that sometimes > a tape transfer would stop saying "end of tape", mainly > around 3 PM, It was also well-known that you should not allow flash pictures to be taken in the machine room, as ALL the tape drives would unload simultaneously when the flash went off. Jon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:08:13 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (dave.g4ugm at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:08:13 -0000 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <5F9833D2.2040301@pico-systems.com> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> <5F9833D2.2040301@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <0ced01d6ac72$fe15a950$fa40fbf0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Jon Elson via > cctalk > Sent: 27 October 2020 14:51 > To: nico de jong ; General at ezwind.net; > Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Strange magtape anecdote > > On 10/27/2020 12:50 AM, nico de jong via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > Back in the early 70's I was an operator on an IBM 360/40 with 4 > > tapedrives. Nobody could understand that sometimes a tape transfer > > would stop saying "end of tape", mainly around 3 PM, > It was also well-known that you should not allow flash pictures to be taken in > the machine room, as ALL the tape drives would unload simultaneously when > the flash went off. > > Jon I remember when doing standby power generator tests we had to remember to off-line all the drives at end of job, other wise they all tried to rewind at the same time.... .. and the generator could comfortably do two, stuttered a bit with three, but on the first test as the fourth flicked in there was a big "bang" and lots of flapping of tape, plus lots of cursing from our Site Engineer.,,,, Dave From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Oct 27 10:59:56 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 15:59:56 +0000 Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog>, Message-ID: I have one of the NC4016 boards ( I forget which one ). I added a XT floppy controller and a XT MFM disk controller. I made some other hardware for doing byte stuff faster. Using address -1, I could access it faster as a short literal. I had a 8 bit barrel shifter there. It came in handy for the XT controllers. The processor was fast enough that I had to add delays to the code to the floppy controller. It would run faster than the floppy controller could provide status. Still, I was using it with direct processor access and the controller was really expected to be used with a DMA transfers in a XT computer. The MFM hard drive controller was much easier to deal with. National also had a bunch of stackable computer modules. One of these modules had the NSC800 processor with a Forth ROM built in. Rockwell liked Forth and used it quite a bit in their development system as well as having it on their AIM 65 machines. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of TangentDelta via cctalk Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:29 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: R65F11 Rockwell also had an RSC-FORTH Kernel and development environment ROM set for the R6501Q, which is a similar 6502-based processor meant for embedded applications. http://www.smallestplcoftheworld.org/RSC-FORTH_User%27s_Manual.pdf Here's the RSC-FORTH manual, which covers the different types of RSC-FORTH. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Oct 27 11:33:29 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 12:33:29 -0400 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <0ced01d6ac72$fe15a950$fa40fbf0$@gmail.com> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> <5F9833D2.2040301@pico-systems.com> <0ced01d6ac72$fe15a950$fa40fbf0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1A5CF628-208F-46DB-BCC1-E93C7BA5D811@comcast.net> > On Oct 27, 2020, at 11:08 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I remember when doing standby power generator tests we had to remember to off-line all the drives at end of job, other wise they all tried to rewind at the same time.... > .. and the generator could comfortably do two, stuttered a bit with three, but on the first test as the fourth flicked in there was a big "bang" and lots of flapping of tape, plus lots of cursing from our Site Engineer.,,,, A similar issue shows up with large collections of disk drives. That includes modern small HDDs. The motor start surge current is a lot higher than the steady state current, so starting a row of drives all at once -- or a box full of 3.5 inch HDDs in a modern storage array -- can cause an overload. In storage array firmware that's dealt with by spinning up the drives a couple at a time, fewer at a time if one of the power supplies has failed. paul From poc at pocnet.net Tue Oct 27 12:01:17 2020 From: poc at pocnet.net (Patrik Schindler) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 18:01:17 +0100 Subject: Strange magtape anecdote In-Reply-To: <1A5CF628-208F-46DB-BCC1-E93C7BA5D811@comcast.net> References: <02be4bb0-1bf0-02e0-4534-fbf5575eb4c0@bitsavers.org> <533dc1ff-b007-6148-e149-422fc3da09f4@farumdata.dk> <5F9833D2.2040301@pico-systems.com> <0ced01d6ac72$fe15a950$fa40fbf0$@gmail.com> <1A5CF628-208F-46DB-BCC1-E93C7BA5D811@comcast.net> Message-ID: <83D74209-AA20-4669-81EC-D3DBB837BBB1@pocnet.net> Hello Paul, Am 27.10.2020 um 17:33 schrieb Paul Koning via cctalk : > The motor start surge current is a lot higher than the steady state current I fondly remember my Seagate Elite 9GB (5.25? double height), nominal 5400 RPM. Power applied, it slowly spins until a certain speed and then switches to ?second gear? to push it to final speed. I measured 40W while doing that. :wq! PoC From doug at doughq.com Tue Oct 27 17:59:47 2020 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 09:59:47 +1100 Subject: R65F11 In-Reply-To: References: <1603645097.7154.11.camel@moondog> Message-ID: Dwight, I would be very interested in your NC4016 experience. I did collect a NC4016 STD bus board a while ago from ePay, and have successfully spoken to it via a terminal - It would be fun to add storage, but I have no idea where to start :-) And no doco......:-/ Kindest regards, Doug Jackson em: doug at doughq.com ph: 0414 986878 Check out my awesome clocks at www.dougswordclocks.com Follow my amateur radio adventures at vk1zdj.net ----------------------------------------------------------- Just like an old fashioned letter, this email and any files transmitted with it should probably be treated as confidential and intended solely for your own use. Please note that any interesting spelling is usually my own and may have been caused by fat thumbs on a tiny tiny keyboard. Should any part of this message prove to be useful in the event of the imminent Zombie Apocalypse then the sender bears no personal, legal, or moral responsibility for any outcome resulting from its usage unless the result of said usage is the unlikely defeat of the Zombie Hordes in which case the sender takes full credit without any theoretical or actual legal liability. :-) Be nice to your parents. Go outside and do something awesome - Draw, paint, walk, setup a radio station, go fishing or sailing - just do something that makes you happy. ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G- In more laid back days this line would literally sing ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G ^G On Wed, 28 Oct 2020 at 03:00, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have one of the NC4016 boards ( I forget which one ). I added a XT > floppy controller and a XT MFM disk controller. I made some other hardware > for doing byte stuff faster. Using address -1, I could access it faster as > a short literal. I had a 8 bit barrel shifter there. It came in handy for > the XT controllers. The processor was fast enough that I had to add delays > to the code to the floppy controller. It would run faster than the floppy > controller could provide status. Still, I was using it with direct > processor access and the controller was really expected to be used with a > DMA transfers in a XT computer. The MFM hard drive controller was much > easier to deal with. > National also had a bunch of stackable computer modules. One of these > modules had the NSC800 processor with a Forth ROM built in. > Rockwell liked Forth and used it quite a bit in their development system > as well as having it on their AIM 65 machines. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of TangentDelta > via cctalk > Sent: Sunday, October 25, 2020 5:29 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: R65F11 > > Rockwell also had an RSC-FORTH Kernel and development environment ROM set > for the R6501Q, which is a similar 6502-based processor meant for embedded > applications. > > http://www.smallestplcoftheworld.org/RSC-FORTH_User%27s_Manual.pdf > > Here's the RSC-FORTH manual, which covers the different types of RSC-FORTH. > From technoid6502 at gmail.com Wed Oct 28 14:49:48 2020 From: technoid6502 at gmail.com (Jeffrey S. Worley) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 15:49:48 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Memory sad! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <88b9434b58c880674363368a2bb24fdc3ccbb499.camel@gmail.com> Those sound like ram chip 4116, quite common once, and still available. I have a couple dozen tested ones handy if you want them. (From Atari 800 16k ram modules). 250ns to 350ns, depending. best, Jeff On Tue, 2020-10-27 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Re: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Memory sad! From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Oct 28 18:48:49 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 19:48:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Working-ish! Message-ID: <20201028234849.80C0F18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chris Zach > The last board is a new style 11/24 and it doesn't do anything but it > does have three switch packs. So I just need to find the manual for it Appendix D in the 003 rev of the /24 TM has the details of the -YA.. > In the meantime the UNIBUS problem also appears to be fixed: The > problem was that sure enough: One of the memory slot SPC's (4) did not > have the DMA jumper. Checking grant line continuity is part of system setup for me; the fact than on many backplanes, the DMA grant jumpering is wirewrap on the back of the backplane is a PITA, but back when it wasn't that big a deal. (Heck, configuration jumpering on boards was all soldered wires BITD!) The need for grant continuity is actually a characteristic of the _CPU_, not the bus. I was astonished the first time I played with an /04 (or naybe it was a /34, I forget), because on them, I'm pretty sure (I can't find it in the documentation, but I'm pretty sure I remember it) that on power-on, the CPU checks for grant continuity, and won't work without it. (They all require the M9302 teminator or equivalent, which has active circuitry to turn around an unclaimed grant onto the BSACK line.) When the CPU powers up, it sends grants down the grant lines and expects to see them back on SACK (from the M9302), and it won't operate if this doesn't happen. That floored me when I ran across it, because on the older UNIBUS CPUs I'd worked with BITD (/40's, etc) it was the done thing to be able to leave a gap in the grant _downtream_ of the last card that could do interrupts; no possible operational problem. I'm not sure why DEC added that 'feature'; probably somebody thought it would make systems more robust, but I bet all it did was generate a bunch of Field Circus calls. (Kind of like the LSI-11 'feature' where ODT won't start unless there's working memory at 0 - another wonderful little Easter Egg.) Ironically, although the QBUS uses _exactly_ the same kind of bus grant lines, no QBUS processor seems to check their continuity in this way; I habitually run my QBUS machines without all the slots filled, and F11 and J11 processors all run fine with open grant lines (after the last card that uses interrupts). I guess DEC found out the hard way that that check wasn't useful! But this, as I said, is a characteristic of the CPU, not the bus. > Anyone even know why Q-Bus doesn't need termination QBUS documentation has long ediscussions of maximum cable lengths between backplane sections, but little about cases where termination on both ends is not needed. One exception is in the " pdp11 bus hanbook", pg. 128: If nore than 20 AC loads are included [on a single bacplane], the other end of the bus must be terminated with 120 ohms. The clear implication is that with <20 AC loads, termination at the second end is not needed. No explanation is given as to why, but I had the same thoughts as Patrick Finnegan - that it's down to the very short bus lengths. (With a short bus, the reflection from the un-terminated end will be very close in time - the line length for the lines on a single backplane is spec'd at a max od about 14"; so about 1 nsec. That's on the order of magnitude of the bus signal rise times.) If you think about it, every time you plug in a card, you've added a short branch to the bus on every bus line (since they aren't normally terminated at the transmitter/reveiver chips). But very short branches, so their reflections are even closer in time. Noel From cz at alembic.crystel.com Wed Oct 28 20:29:39 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Wed, 28 Oct 2020 21:29:39 -0400 Subject: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?--Working-ish! In-Reply-To: <20201028234849.80C0F18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20201028234849.80C0F18C0BA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6a454fbe-a9f8-d511-0119-dc615133e5bc@alembic.crystel.com> > Appendix D in the 003 rev of the /24 TM has the details of the -YA.. Found it. Board is also now working, and I'm selling one of them on Ebay. I don't need 4 11/24 CPUs (why do I have these?) Anyway once things are up I'll swap a KEF11 and a CIS chipset onto the 24 to bring it to full power :-) > Ironically, although the QBUS uses _exactly_ the same kind of bus grant lines, > no QBUS processor seems to check their continuity in this way; I habitually > run my QBUS machines without all the slots filled, and F11 and J11 processors > all run fine with open grant lines (after the last card that uses > interrupts). I guess DEC found out the hard way that that check wasn't > useful! True, and while the problem may not be the bus per se, the implementation of a pdp11 on Q-Bus just seems to have less of these annoyances. No biggie, just the usual stuff. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Oct 29 18:19:18 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 29 Oct 2020 19:19:18 -0400 Subject: Font for DEC indicator panels In-Reply-To: <1226308f-c677-02a2-4dcd-7ce280b4125f@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20181113152123.DE8A618C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1226308f-c677-02a2-4dcd-7ce280b4125f@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <60f8c5cf-49bb-6619-d961-fdfa1c6c29eb@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-11-18 12:44 p.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-11-13 10:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> > From: Toby Thain >> >> > To get closer I'd need better images of the panels. >> >> Hi, I borrowed a DEC inlay from someone (a KA10 CPU bay) and scanned a chunk >> of it (as much as I could fit into my A4 scanner :-) at 200 dpi: >> >> http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/KACPUPanel.jpg >> >> I have a TC08 inlay, but it's currently being used in my QSIC display (until >> we can get the RKV11-F/RPV11-D inlay done :-), and I didn't want to yank it >> out. As far as I can tell, it's the same font on the two of them. >> >> >> > the closest I know of off the top of my head is Akzidenz Grotesk. >> >> The Akzidenz Grotesk Medium is indeed very, very close (other than the zero). > > (And the "Q") > >> Do you happen to know if that font available for use in non-commercial >> settings? > > I just noticed this free font which is also rather close (has a slashed > Q, at least): > > https://www.fontsquirrel.com/fonts/hk-grotesk > > Try the SemiBold weight. Another non-free font very much in the same genre, that I recently found, is FF Infra (though I wasn't able to check its lining numerals in the online tester): https://www.fontshop.com/families/ff-infra > > --Toby > > >> >> Thanks! >> >> Noel >> > From rsmilward at frontier.com Fri Oct 30 16:47:41 2020 From: rsmilward at frontier.com (Richard Milward) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 17:47:41 -0400 Subject: DG Nova panel font? References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> Message-ID: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> Speaking of DEC fonts, does anyone know what was used on the Data General Nova machines? Thanks! **Richard IBM 1620 > IBM 1130 > S/360 Model 40 > DG Nova > ... From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 30 17:02:09 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 15:02:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, Richard Milward via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of DEC fonts, does anyone know what was used on the Data General > Nova machines? > Thanks! Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 30 17:23:14 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 18:23:14 -0400 Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> Message-ID: <0907b6f4-4224-022b-47bc-849d52439ba9@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-10-30 6:02 p.m., geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, Richard Milward via cctalk wrote: > >> Speaking of DEC fonts, does anyone know what was used on the Data >> General Nova machines? >> Thanks! > > Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg > > g. > Helvetica for the main logo "DATA GENERAL", "NOVA 3" and the button digits 0-15. The rest of the captions aren't so easily identifiable ("CARRY", "PR LOAD", "MEM PAR" etc). They're something else, but quite close to Univers or Univers Extended. The yellow engraved stuff on the right metal is whatever font their engraving machine used, it's not a typesetting font. --Toby From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Oct 30 17:25:22 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 17:25:22 -0500 Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> Message-ID: <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> Gene: > Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg Nova 3 : Recognize the mustards.... but all the bezels I ever saw were white? J From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Oct 30 18:28:41 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 16:28:41 -0700 Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 10/30/2020 3:25 PM, jwest--- via cctalk wrote: > Gene: >> Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg > Nova 3 : Recognize the mustards.... but all the bezels I ever saw were > white? > > J I have three with white plastic.? The plastic is white for sure. Also IIRC, the plastic is gloss finish. The same casting (including defects) is used for the Eclipse of the same era and type (S/130 or 140? something like that).? It's white plus blue for the legend. thanks Jim From geneb at deltasoft.com Fri Oct 30 21:40:32 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 19:40:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > Gene: >> Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg > > Nova 3 : Recognize the mustards.... but all the bezels I ever saw were > white? I got nothing for you Jay, sorry. :) That's how it came to me. btw, sorry for the post - I misread "fonts" as "fronts" and figured someone wanted a picture. *laughs* (Don't get old kids, your eyes go first, and then something else I can't remember goes next.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Oct 30 22:13:07 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 30 Oct 2020 23:13:07 -0400 Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 2020-10-30 10:40 p.m., geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Gene: >>> Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg >> >> Nova 3 : Recognize the mustards.... but all the bezels I ever saw were >> white? > > I got nothing for you Jay, sorry. :)? That's how it came to me. > > btw, sorry for the post - I misread "fonts" as "fronts" and figured > someone wanted a picture. *laughs*? (Don't get old kids, your eyes go > first, and then something else I can't remember goes next.) > Well it was damn helpful for the font identification, so ... --Toby > g. > > > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Oct 31 07:33:14 2020 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 05:33:14 -0700 (PDT) Subject: DG Nova panel font? In-Reply-To: References: <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d.ref@frontier.com> <83e4b7c6-e44b-207b-6796-f5ca10e92a9d@frontier.com> <000801d6af0b$8eeebd00$accc3700$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-10-30 10:40 p.m., geneb via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 30 Oct 2020, jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: >> >>> Gene: >>>> Nova 3: https://i.imgur.com/w4VI9Wo.jpg >>> >>> Nova 3 : Recognize the mustards.... but all the bezels I ever saw were >>> white? >> >> I got nothing for you Jay, sorry. :)? That's how it came to me. >> >> btw, sorry for the post - I misread "fonts" as "fronts" and figured >> someone wanted a picture. *laughs*? (Don't get old kids, your eyes go >> first, and then something else I can't remember goes next.) >> > > Well it was damn helpful for the font identification, so ... > Excellent! :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From abs at absd.org Sat Oct 31 11:58:32 2020 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sat, 31 Oct 2020 16:58:32 +0000 Subject: MOP boot files Message-ID: I've been helping dreamlayers with his cleanup of the NetBSD/Linux mopd, ( https://github.com/dreamlayers/netbsd-mopd ) and we were looking at how it handled different a.out MOP files, specifically where the files may be little endian For non MID zero files its easy enough, but little endian MID 0 files are potentially more complicated. https://github.com/abs0/netbsd-mopd/commit/6ab8555817f3dff23c506464d302d1a40bca6214#r43682334 It can netboot Ultrix and the vast panoply of NetBSD MOP boot files in the various a.out and ELF incarnations http://mop.absd.org/netbsd/ (those that are not broken that is :/ ) I was wondering if anyone had links to hand for any other good sources of MOP files? Thanks David From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Oct 31 19:45:44 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 1 Nov 2020 00:45:44 +0000 Subject: MOP boot files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2d3f760c-0c5a-830e-e91f-2aeb32ae053e@ntlworld.com> On 31/10/2020 16:58, David Brownlee via cctalk wrote: > I was wondering if anyone had links to hand for any other good sources > of MOP files? > > Thanks > > David Wikipedia lists a bunch of terminal servers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DECserver. Some of the firmware files were on the distribution CDs, so it should be easy enough to find those, but you'll need the hardware for that to be useful. The DECnis booted via MOP. Various Alpha systems could boot their firmware updates via MOP (and the firmware files were available on DEC's FTP, so there should be no problem with someone giving you a copy). I think some of the later uVAX 3100 series (and maybe VS 4000-9x series) could MOP boot a firmware update. Again, for all of these possibilities, if you don't have the hardware, I don't imagine you can properly test things. I guess you can at least see whether the software *thinks* it understands the image format. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From kfergason at gmail.com Tue Oct 27 12:14:41 2020 From: kfergason at gmail.com (Kelly Fergason) Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 12:14:41 -0500 Subject: removing melting rubber from metal? Message-ID: Hi All, I have an EP-1 eprom programmer from BP Microsystems. The rubber feet melted. It was in my closet. I have no clue how it got that hot, or if they are just some composition for them to melt. My question is how do I clean this up? Acetone, paint thinner? I scraped off the feet, so there is just a few 'streams' of melted rubber down the sides, and a bit that somehow got inside (also on the side, not on the electronics). Just looking for some ideas before I start applying chemicals... Thanks, Kelly