From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 1 01:33:01 2020 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 06:33:01 +0000 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com>, Message-ID: Van: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 1 juli 2020 03:05 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? On 6/30/20 6:29 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Why would one get OS/2200 when they can get https://www.unisys.com/offerings/clearpath-forward/clearpath-forward-products/clearpath-mcp-software/clearpath-mcp-express ? > Because I very much enjoyed working on Exec-8 on the 1100 lo those 40 years ago. :-) bill I always wanted ?something? at home to remind me of my days when working with EXEC 37R5 (IIRC, 1991-1999 time frame). Back then I could read the panic dump listing, a stack of 3 inches thick paper only containng 36-bit octal words, and find which program (or user) caused EXEC to crash. The joke was ?let?s find the 8?. I did EXEC, Videotex, DMS-1000, and MAPPER. For EXEC and MAPPER I had the SPERRY ?internals? course. I really liked MASM and PLUS. I remember two ERs, ADED$ and SMOQUE$. With the latter I was able to move my print out to the top of the queue ? IIRC, with ADED$ you could assign (and lock) a CPU to your program. A silly mistake in my MASM program ?ate? all three CPUs of the 1100/63. Everything froze, and even on the console in the computer room response was extremely slow. $! had no immediate effect! Those were the days! I think I will try to get 2200 running, but I am afraid I forgot most of it (if not all), it?s been over 20 years. Henk From tony.nicholson at computer.org Wed Jul 1 02:13:58 2020 From: tony.nicholson at computer.org (Tony Nicholson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 17:13:58 +1000 Subject: More DECnet/E items Message-ID: Hi Paul, Thanks for posting some Y2K fixes and enhancements for DECnet/E under RSTS/E. I've also used the Bitsavers source files for RSTS/E V10.1 to fix a Y2K bug with handling RT-11 Y2k3 dates by the FIT program. Are you interested in including my patched FIT.TSK for RSTS/E along with your fixes. I could also provide my modified BASIC-Plus source code to FIT too (but releasing this too may have copyright limitations). Also I remember seeing a Y2K patch kit from Mentec for RSTS/E V10.1 on a TK50 tape. I don't have a copy of it - but I think it also had some additional Y2K fixes. You wouldn't also have some of these too? Thanks in advance. Tony -- Tony Nicholson From mjkerpan at kerpan.com Wed Jul 1 08:17:47 2020 From: mjkerpan at kerpan.com (Michael Kerpan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 09:17:47 -0400 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: This thread has been truly enlightening. I had no idea that UniSys had hobbyist versions of both their Univac and Burroughs stuff available. I'll have to give them both a try. Is there any software out there for them or is the general idea that you're supposed to write your own? Mike From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jul 1 08:59:36 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 06:59:36 -0700 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I doubt it is for hobbyists. I think it is to get people to look at it for the upsell opportunity. And why are people writing ?UniSys?? Speaking as someone who was there during the merger, it is ?Unisys?. alan > On Jul 1, 2020, at 06:18, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > > ?This thread has been truly enlightening. I had no idea that UniSys had > hobbyist versions of both their Univac and Burroughs stuff available. I doubt it is for hobbyists. I think it is for the upsell opportunity. I sent in my And why are people writing ?UniSys?? It is ?Unisys?. alan > I'll > have to give them both a try. Is there any software out there for them or > is the general idea that you're supposed to write your own? > > Mike From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jul 1 09:05:03 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 07:05:03 -0700 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1651FF3B-D79D-4C4F-A61B-49925A1A279D@snowmoose.com> > On Jul 1, 2020, at 06:59, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > ?I doubt it is for hobbyists. I think it is to get people to look at it for the upsell opportunity. I will take back some of what I just wrote. While I was typing this I received the download link email and it included this: Students, teachers, hobbyists and ClearPath enthusiasts can use it for non-production evaluation, personal or educational purposes to explore and practice developing and testing ClearPath MCP- based applications. Existing ClearPath MCP users can similarly use it to expand their knowledge of the ClearPath MCP environment. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 1 11:39:29 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:39:29 -0400 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D8AE062-CEFA-4851-9F87-2BC7FFFB94EC@comcast.net> > On Jul 1, 2020, at 3:13 AM, Tony Nicholson wrote: > > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for posting some Y2K fixes and enhancements for DECnet/E under RSTS/E. > > I've also used the Bitsavers source files for RSTS/E V10.1 to fix a Y2K bug with handling RT-11 Y2k3 dates by the FIT program. Nice. I looked at fixing RT11 RTS applications like MACRO, but that's not possible because the RT11 date format stops in the early 21st century (5 bit year field). Perhaps RT-11 has created a solution, but if so I don't know it. > Are you interested in including my patched FIT.TSK for RSTS/E along with your fixes. I could also provide my modified BASIC-Plus source code to FIT too (but releasing this too may have copyright limitations). I was thinking of posting the *.diff files, that way if someone has the sources, the fixed version can be created. FWIW, there are in fact V10.1 sources on the net, on Bitsavers for example. But I'm as reluctant as you are to post full sources myself. Given that this stuff is in Github, I guess you could put your changes in a fork and generate a pull request. Or send me the files if you don't want to go through that. > Also I remember seeing a Y2K patch kit from Mentec for RSTS/E V10.1 on a TK50 tape. I don't have a copy of it - but I think it also had some additional Y2K fixes. You wouldn't also have some of these too? I had not heard of that and I have not seen it, or any Mentec materials for that matter. paul From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Wed Jul 1 12:23:57 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:23:57 -0500 Subject: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express? In-Reply-To: References: <20200630182745.GA22324@RawFedDogs.net> <9E08A7FF-3FE9-4C59-9BFA-741649D560BE@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20200701172357.GA1071@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 09:17:47AM -0400, Michael Kerpan via cctalk wrote: > This thread has been truly enlightening. I had no idea that UniSys had > hobbyist versions of both their Univac and Burroughs stuff available. I'm very happy to find that MCP Express is available to hobbyists. I currently know very little about Burroughs mainframes. I've searched several times in the past for Burroughs emulators. I found a nice series of blog posts on getting started with MCP Express: https://Unite.org/wp/getting-started-with-mcp-express/ I read most of the posts last night, and received my MCP Express download link this morning. I'll download and install it as soon as I get home this evening. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Jul 1 12:51:42 2020 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (jwest at classiccmp.org) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:51:42 -0500 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: <8D8AE062-CEFA-4851-9F87-2BC7FFFB94EC@comcast.net> References: <8D8AE062-CEFA-4851-9F87-2BC7FFFB94EC@comcast.net> Message-ID: <001801d64fd0$47911290$d6b337b0$@classiccmp.org> ---------- Nice. I looked at fixing RT11 RTS applications like MACRO, but that's not possible because the RT11 date format stops in the early 21st century (5 bit year field). Perhaps RT-11 has created a solution, but if so I don't know it. ---------- It was my understanding that Jerome Fine did y2k fixes (commercially) for rt11 years ago. Is he still around the list? J From sieler at allegro.com Wed Jul 1 13:09:40 2020 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 11:09:40 -0700 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) Message-ID: i> From: Alan Perry > Why would one get OS/2200 when they can get https://www.unisys.com/offerings/clearpath-forward/clearpath-forward-products/clearpath-mcp-software/clearpath-mcp-express ? thanks! As an old MCP user/developer (although outside the lab), that's really interesting to me! Note: you have to register to get the software. That's apparently done by clicking on "Downloads". Then you're presented with a registration form. After submitting it, you're told you'll receive an email. Don't hold your breath. It's been 20 minutes, and no email from Unisys :( (And, no email --> no download) Stan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 1 13:13:37 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:13:37 -0600 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD In-Reply-To: <323557fc-ce00-2dff-cc1a-4ea723ed36e6@tnetconsulting.net> References: <323557fc-ce00-2dff-cc1a-4ea723ed36e6@tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <793ffbe7-f7d7-dbf6-3503-6d9e01918c7f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 6/28/20 6:48 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with UUCP on macOS or *BSD systems that > would be willing to help me figure something out? I ended up getting this to work. I don't know if it was a macOSism or a *BSDism, but the root of the problem was crossing between users via setuid / setgid in relation to OpenSSH. Two different versions of macOS behaved differently. macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 runs the underlying ssh pipe command as the user account that initiates the uucp / uuto / uux. macOS Catalina 10.15.15 runs the underlying ssh pipe command as the _uucp user, NOT the account that initiates the uucp / uuto / uux. As such, on macOS Yosemite 10.10.5, I have to have the normal user's ssh public key in the authorized_keys file on the remote system. Conversely, on macOS Catalina 10.15.15, I have to have the _uucp user's ssh public key in the authorized_keys file on the remote system. I don't know why macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 and macOS Catalina 10.15.15 are behaving differently, but they are. These inconsistencies made identifying which client ssh config file -- nominally ~/.ssh/config -- was used cumbersome. For some unknown reason, I couldn't rely on "~/" or defaults to specify the _uucp user's key (Identity) file or the known_hosts file on macOS Catalina 10.15.15, despite the fact that it was running as the _uucp user. I ended up having to hard code the paths, as they were defaulting to the original user account that initiated the uucp / uuto / uux. I can only surmise that something is fundamentally different between Linux and macOS in how it does things when changing user accounts via setuid & setgid as I did not have any of these problems on multiple Linux machines. I can further surmise that something is different between macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 and macOS Catalina 10.15.15. I don't know if this is related to System Integrity Protection or something else. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jul 1 13:26:33 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 11:26:33 -0700 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/1/20 11:09 AM, Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: > i> From: Alan Perry >> Why would one get OS/2200 when they can get https://www.unisys.com/offerings/clearpath-forward/clearpath-forward-products/clearpath-mcp-software/clearpath-mcp-express ? > > thanks! > > As an old MCP user/developer (although outside the lab), that's really > interesting to me! > > Note: you have to register to get the software. That's apparently > done by clicking on "Downloads". Then you're presented with a > registration form. After submitting it, you're told you'll receive an > email. > > Don't hold your breath. > > It's been 20 minutes, and no email from Unisys :( > > (And, no email --> no download) I submitted the form last night and got the download link about 8am Pacific time this morning. The download was 2.66G. I haven't installed it yet. alan From 821 at 128.ca Wed Jul 1 14:14:55 2020 From: 821 at 128.ca (Kevin Lee) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 21:14:55 +0200 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD In-Reply-To: <793ffbe7-f7d7-dbf6-3503-6d9e01918c7f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <793ffbe7-f7d7-dbf6-3503-6d9e01918c7f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Mac OS 10.15 and above had very tight controls on what can run in user space. Areas are designated off limits and blocked for security reasons. According to apple. OS X 11 is worse. K. > On 1 Jul 2020, at 20:13, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > ?On 6/28/20 6:48 PM, Grant Taylor wrote: >> Does anyone have any experience with UUCP on macOS or *BSD systems that would be willing to help me figure something out? > > I ended up getting this to work. > > I don't know if it was a macOSism or a *BSDism, but the root of the problem was crossing between users via setuid / setgid in relation to OpenSSH. > > Two different versions of macOS behaved differently. > > macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 runs the underlying ssh pipe command as the user account that initiates the uucp / uuto / uux. > > macOS Catalina 10.15.15 runs the underlying ssh pipe command as the _uucp user, NOT the account that initiates the uucp / uuto / uux. > > As such, on macOS Yosemite 10.10.5, I have to have the normal user's ssh public key in the authorized_keys file on the remote system. > > Conversely, on macOS Catalina 10.15.15, I have to have the _uucp user's ssh public key in the authorized_keys file on the remote system. > > I don't know why macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 and macOS Catalina 10.15.15 are behaving differently, but they are. > > These inconsistencies made identifying which client ssh config file -- nominally ~/.ssh/config -- was used cumbersome. > > For some unknown reason, I couldn't rely on "~/" or defaults to specify the _uucp user's key (Identity) file or the known_hosts file on macOS Catalina 10.15.15, despite the fact that it was running as the _uucp user. I ended up having to hard code the paths, as they were defaulting to the original user account that initiated the uucp / uuto / uux. > > I can only surmise that something is fundamentally different between Linux and macOS in how it does things when changing user accounts via setuid & setgid as I did not have any of these problems on multiple Linux machines. I can further surmise that something is different between macOS Yosemite 10.10.5 and macOS Catalina 10.15.15. I don't know if this is related to System Integrity Protection or something else. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 1 14:33:37 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 20:33:37 +0100 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 01/07/2020 19:26, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > I submitted the form last night and got the download link about 8am > Pacific time this morning. The download was 2.66G. I haven't installed > it yet. > > alan > "The software license expires on July 31st of each calendar year and must be renewed by re-registering with Unisys and then downloading and installing a new package." Maybe I'll wait a few weeks before requesting a licence? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 15:49:16 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:49:16 -0400 Subject: In-Reply-To: <459uckun6nshigpuyn5b3e3w.1593278557208@email.android.com> References: <459uckun6nshigpuyn5b3e3w.1593278557208@email.android.com> Message-ID: Totally. On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 5:05 PM William Pechter via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jul 1 15:50:02 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 13:50:02 -0700 Subject: In-Reply-To: References: <459uckun6nshigpuyn5b3e3w.1593278557208@email.android.com> Message-ID: I disagree. On Wed, Jul 1, 2020 at 1:49 PM Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Totally. > > On Tue, Jun 30, 2020, 5:05 PM William Pechter via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Jul 1 15:55:16 2020 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:55:16 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx computers For Sale Message-ID: <935a000e-ed12-fc3a-fc73-202ab60ffba6@ccvn.com> Hey guys, I was a regular poster and reader on the list many years ago. During that time, I collected a few HP computers and Tape drives and a bunch of other "junk". Well the time has come for me to unload some of the equipment and I'd really like it to go to someone that has an appreciation for what is it. Currently I have 6 HP 21mx computers and about 30 I/O cards to move. I also have 4 7980 (or similar) auto-loading tape drives. They are top loading with HPIB interfaces. I also have a HP 9000 800/F20 computer that dual boots HPUX 10.20 or HPUX 11.0. from a SCSI array. It has ethernet, HPIB, and SCSI cards. It been a few years since I powered up this stuff. Everything has been stored indoors in a clean environment so I expect it to be fuctional. As far as I can tell everything is in EXCELLENT condition! This stuff is located in western North Carolina not far from Asheville. Because of the size, this would require local pickup. I do not have the means or inclination to ship. Notice I am not giving them away but will consider reasonable offers on any single item or multiple items. If interested, please contact me directly. Thanks, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 1 17:34:33 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 16:34:33 -0600 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD In-Reply-To: References: <793ffbe7-f7d7-dbf6-3503-6d9e01918c7f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <86cebc76-a4fa-f99f-12e2-8876c5245870@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/1/20 1:14 PM, Kevin Lee wrote: > Mac OS 10.15 and above had very tight controls on what can run in > user space. Areas are designated off limits and blocked for security > reasons. According to apple. OS X 11 is worse. I found System Integrity Protection to be annoying. But I don't think it's much of a problem if you're willing to go through the hoops to work with it. It *is* /working/ as desired on macOS Catalina 10.15.15. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From tony.nicholson at computer.org Wed Jul 1 19:31:38 2020 From: tony.nicholson at computer.org (Tony Nicholson) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 10:31:38 +1000 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: <001801d64fd0$47911290$d6b337b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <8D8AE062-CEFA-4851-9F87-2BC7FFFB94EC@comcast.net> <001801d64fd0$47911290$d6b337b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 2, 2020 at 3:52 AM wrote: > ---------- > Nice. I looked at fixing RT11 RTS applications like MACRO, but that's not > possible because the RT11 date format stops in the early 21st century (5 > bit > year field). Perhaps RT-11 has created a solution, but if so I don't know > it. > ---------- > > It was my understanding that Jerome Fine did y2k fixes (commercially) for > rt11 years ago. Is he still around the list? > > J > > > Thanks for your replies Paul and Jay. I spent the last hour cobbling together a GitHub Repository for RSTS-E updates. It's at https://github.com/agn453/RSTS-E I've included a context diff for the FIT patches I mentioned and an updated FIT.TSK image built for RSTS/E V10.1 with BASIC-Plus V2.7 (and also the Mentec RT-11 V5.7 release notes that discuss the time word changes), along with an Ethernet patch that Paul posted about in 2016 to increase DECnet performance under SIMH PDP11. I also found the cover letter for the Mentec RSTS/E V10.1A Year 2000 Update and included this. Someone out there may be able to provide further details. At some later stage I'll start collecting other RSTS/E software that I wrote and upload it too. It's silly to keep this hidden away only to be be lost forever when I'm gone! Tony -- Tony Nicholson From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Jul 1 22:00:00 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 20:00:00 -0700 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <419656da-cf9c-8332-6453-99acff16abce@snowmoose.com> On 7/1/20 12:33 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 01/07/2020 19:26, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> I submitted the form last night and got the download link about 8am >> Pacific time this morning. The download was 2.66G. I haven't installed >> it yet. >> >> alan >> > "The software license expires on July 31st of each calendar year and > must be renewed by re-registering with Unisys and then downloading and > installing a new package." > > > Maybe I'll wait a few weeks before requesting a licence? Got it installed and running on a Windows 10 VM on my MacBook. Pretty interesting, but I haven't used MCP since '89 and seldom used the ODT (console) on A Series systems when I did, so lots of trying to recall how to do stuff. The disk image and machine config file are stored separately from ClearPath MCP Express, so I should be able to just point the new package to it when renewal time comes up. alan From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Wed Jul 1 22:19:24 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 20:19:24 -0700 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD In-Reply-To: <0072be49-63a1-a980-add5-e875a19a3f37@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <0072be49-63a1-a980-add5-e875a19a3f37@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Jun 28, 2020, at 6:07 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > - uuto / uucp copy files from my non-root / non-(_)uucp user to the UUCP spool. But the (demand based) ""call (pipe over SSH) is failing. macOS switched to launchd from inetd a very long time ago. If you're going to use macOS as a UUCP node you'll want to enable the com.apple.uucp service, which will ensure uucico is run for you by the system. > I noticed that the following files weren't set UID or GID like they are on Linux. But I don't know if that's a macOS and / or *BSD difference when compared to Linux. > > /usr/bin/uucp > /usr/bin/uuname > /usr/bin/uustat > /usr/bin/uux > /usr/sbin/uucico > /usr/sbin/uuxqt > > Adding the set UID & GID bits allowed things to mostly work. That's a macOS difference, not a BSD one. I don't *think* you need to re-add any setuid or setgid bits, but I could be mistaken. It's been a very long time since I've actually used UUCP. If they do need to be made setuid or setgid, that sounds like a bug. > Aside: Getting the contemporary macOS so that I could edit the (/usr/share/uucp/) sys & port files was a treat. In macOS 10.14-10.15 these files are indeed covered by system integrity protection, I think that's probably a bug since they need to be edited by a sysadmin to use UUCP. -- Chris PS - Here's the UUCP source for recent macOS: https://opensource.apple.com/source/uucp/uucp-12/ From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 1 22:37:45 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 21:37:45 -0600 Subject: UUCP on macOS / *BSD In-Reply-To: References: <0072be49-63a1-a980-add5-e875a19a3f37@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <0a9861e9-3376-2470-3583-1c6d1728b16a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/1/20 9:19 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > macOS switched to launchd from inetd a very long time ago. If you're > going to use macOS as a UUCP node you'll want to enable the > com.apple.uucp service, which will ensure uucico is run for you by the > system. I understand what you're saying, and why you're saying it. But, it's not germane to how I'm installing, much less using UUCP on macOS. 1) I'm sending UUCP traffic /through/ SSH's STDIO. The calling machine initiates an outbound SSH connection to the called machine and launches uucico (-r0) inside of said SSH connection. There is no need for anything listening for TCP connections for UUCP. 2) The macOS system is initiating outbound ""calls to push and / or pull files from the neighbor (term?) node. > That's a macOS difference, not a BSD one. I don't *think* you need to > re-add any setuid or setgid bits, but I could be mistaken. I most definitely did have to re-add setuid and setgid bits. > It's been a very long time since I've actually used UUCP. If they do > need to be made setuid or setgid, that sounds like a bug. Then it may very well be a bug. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that I'm one of the very few people trying to use UUCP in contemporary macOS. > In macOS 10.14-10.15 these files are indeed covered by system integrity > protection, I think that's probably a bug since they need to be edited > by a sysadmin to use UUCP. Possibly. I don't mind needing to /temporarily/ disable SIP. But I can see how the need to do so is probably a bug or design flaw. > PS - Here's the UUCP source for recent macOS: > https://opensource.apple.com/source/uucp/uucp-12/ ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die From steerex at ccvn.com Wed Jul 1 19:11:26 2020 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 20:11:26 -0400 Subject: HP 21mx computers For Sale Message-ID: <033233a7-f9c0-f50c-f3a6-4bd0c85ab35b@ccvn.com> Forgot to add. I also have a HP 12979 I/O extender that I'll part with. See ya, Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From new_castle_j at yahoo.com Thu Jul 2 12:16:20 2020 From: new_castle_j at yahoo.com (Jonathan Haddox) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 17:16:20 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Arcnet cards and lost emails! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <126475902.1631647.1593710180944@mail.yahoo.com> Hello Rich, I tried emailing you directly, but I don't think you got my message. I'm still here and looking for some ArcNET cards if any have turned up in your closet. Thank You, Jonathan >Hello all, > I had a HDD failure and I lost all of my emails going back 3 years. >There was a gentleman that was looking for Arcnet cards. Could you >please recontact me? >GOD Bless and Thanks, >rich! From mechanic_2 at charter.net Thu Jul 2 12:20:39 2020 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 12:20:39 -0500 Subject: Arcnet cards and lost emails! In-Reply-To: <126475902.1631647.1593710180944@mail.yahoo.com> References: <126475902.1631647.1593710180944@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <5EFE1767.5040002@charter.net> Jonathan, I am going to look for them this weekend. I finally got the mess about my insurance straighten out. I should be able to have my car fixed by next weekend. I apologize for the delays. My life is a mess right now. I appreciate your patience. GOD Bless and Thanks, rich! On 7/2/2020 12:16 PM, Jonathan Haddox via cctalk wrote: > > Hello Rich, > I tried emailing you directly, but I don't think you got my message. I'm still here and looking for some ArcNET cards if any have turned up in your closet. > Thank You, > Jonathan > >> Hello all, >> I had a HDD failure and I lost all of my emails going back 3 years. >> There was a gentleman that was looking for Arcnet cards. Could you >> please recontact me? >> GOD Bless and Thanks, >> rich! > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 13:06:34 2020 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 11:06:34 -0700 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC> <000001d64d4e$ff513bf0$fdf3b3d0$@classiccmp.org> <026801d64dd5$04382710$0ca87530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <65CCF3C9-5CAF-4AC6-BBB3-151FC9CC6487@gmail.com> Thanks a lot. Anyone wants me to dump the DS/1000 rev 1826 ROMs or are these already available? What?s the CBL ROM? The one that?s on the cable interface card? Marc From: cctech on behalf of "cctech at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: "J. Bryan" , "cctech at classiccmp.org" Date: Monday, June 29, 2020 at 2:19 PM To: "cctech at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Hp 21mx loader rom set On Sunday, June 28, 2020 at 22:20, CuriousMarc via cctech wrote: I also have a 91740-80033/34/35 set which I don't know what it is. Does anyone know? Those are DS/1000 revision 1826. Page 3-130 of the HP "Communicator/1000 for Software Update 6.0" (5951-6201, December 1992) has a full list of the DS/1000 ROMs and revisions, as follows: 91740-80001/02/03/16 -- Rev. 1740 91740-80018/19/20/17 -- Rev. 1813 91740-80033/34/35/48 -- Rev. 1826 91740-80049/50/51/48 -- Rev. 1913 91740-80064/65/66/48 -- Rev. 2003 (bad ROMs; withdrawn) 91740-80067/68/69/48 -- Rev. 2003 (good ROMs) 91740-80070/71/72/48 -- Rev. 2540 (adds 7974 loader; no DS change) (The first three ROMs in each entry are the microcode ROMS; the fourth is the CBL ROM.) Pages 3-104 through 3-136 of that document give the firmware revisions of all of the HP products then in support. Anyhow, looking at the ROMs and dates, I suspect these are E/F microcode only and would not work on the 21MX. All of the above are E/F-Series only. -- Dave From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Thu Jul 2 15:05:16 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 15:05:16 -0500 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: <419656da-cf9c-8332-6453-99acff16abce@snowmoose.com> References: <419656da-cf9c-8332-6453-99acff16abce@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <20200702200516.GA2772@RawFedDogs.net> Alan, On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:00:00PM -0700, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > Got it installed and running on a Windows 10 VM on my MacBook. Pretty > interesting, but I haven't used MCP since '89 and seldom used the ODT > (console) on A Series systems when I did, so lots of trying to recall > how to do stuff. I got it installed and running on a Windows 7 VM on my 2009 Mac last night. I've never used MCP before, so there's been lots of reading trying to learn how to do stuff. I didn't have much time to work with it last night, so I haven't gotten very far yet. Has anyone attempted to run MCP Express under Wine on Linux? I don't know how long I'll be able to use the VM I currently have it running on. I don't have a Windows license key for it. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu Jul 2 15:41:53 2020 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 13:41:53 -0700 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: <20200702200516.GA2772@RawFedDogs.net> References: <419656da-cf9c-8332-6453-99acff16abce@snowmoose.com> <20200702200516.GA2772@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On 7/2/20 1:05 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > Alan, > > On Wed, Jul 01, 2020 at 08:00:00PM -0700, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > >> Got it installed and running on a Windows 10 VM on my MacBook. Pretty >> interesting, but I haven't used MCP since '89 and seldom used the ODT >> (console) on A Series systems when I did, so lots of trying to recall >> how to do stuff. > > I got it installed and running on a Windows 7 VM on my 2009 Mac last night. > I've never used MCP before, so there's been lots of reading trying to learn > how to do stuff. I didn't have much time to work with it last night, so I > haven't gotten very far yet. > > Has anyone attempted to run MCP Express under Wine on Linux? I don't know > how long I'll be able to use the VM I currently have it running on. I don't > have a Windows license key for it. I have never had Windows stop working despite not activating it and have gone at least 6 months without doing so. Despite now working for MS, I don't know the ins and outs of Windows activation. (I work on embedded Linux there.) I have been using those blogs to remind myself of how it all work. I worked on products where PCs (ET2000 PC compatibles and B2x BTOS systems) interacted with mainframes. Now the joys of block mode terminals are coming back to me. I did my day-to-day work with CANDE (Command AND Editor) and with MCP Express one get to that through MARC. However, when I run the MARC script, the Windows VM crashes. alan From jdbryan at acm.org Thu Jul 2 16:02:18 2020 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2020 17:02:18 -0400 Subject: Hp 21mx loader rom set In-Reply-To: <65CCF3C9-5CAF-4AC6-BBB3-151FC9CC6487@gmail.com> References: <7C13627C4DCF4733B8DF02ADAC126094@mainPC>, , <65CCF3C9-5CAF-4AC6-BBB3-151FC9CC6487@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thursday, July 2, 2020 at 11:06, Curious Marc wrote: > Thanks a lot. You're welcome. > Anyone wants me to dump the DS/1000 rev 1826 ROMs or are these already > available? To my knowledge, they are not available. > What?s the CBL ROM? The one that?s on the cable interface card? No, it's a boot loader ROM ("CBL" is Communications Bootstrap Loader) that will load absolute programs across a DS/1000 link. So it's one of the small PROMs that mount on the CPU board and that is invoked by the front panel IBL button. It's used to bring up a memory-based system node by loading the OS from a disc-based node across the link. -- Dave From will.senn at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 18:57:06 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 18:57:06 -0500 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online Message-ID: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> Hi, If this is off-topic, my apologies, but I know some of y'all were there (Noel), so I'm hoping it's close enough to on-topic to garner a successful response. I'm looking for the ARPANET Protocol Handbook by Feinler, E. and Postel, J., published by SRI back in the day (revised edition 1978) in an online format (pdf preferably, but anything readable is fine. I came across the reference in RFC 790 - Assigned Numbers. If it's been superceded and the successor is available, that would probably work, too. Although, I prefer the earlier works for concision. Regards, Will -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From shumaker at att.net Thu Jul 2 20:35:50 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 18:35:50 -0700 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> Message-ID: DTIC has it as a citation with accession number ADA003890: https://apps.dtic.mil/sti/citations/ADA003890 but doesn't have it online as a digital document steve On 7/2/2020 4:57 PM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > If this is off-topic, my apologies, but I know some of y'all were > there (Noel), so I'm hoping it's close enough to on-topic to garner a > successful response. I'm looking for the ARPANET Protocol Handbook by > Feinler, E. and Postel, J., published by SRI back in the day (revised > edition 1978) in an online format (pdf preferably, but anything > readable is fine. I came across the reference in RFC 790 - Assigned > Numbers. If it's been superceded and the successor is available, that > would probably work, too. Although, I prefer the earlier works for > concision. > > Regards, > > Will > From shumaker at att.net Thu Jul 2 20:55:18 2020 From: shumaker at att.net (s shumaker) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 18:55:18 -0700 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> Message-ID: NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; go here and search on the author name https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ ?Steve On 7/2/2020 4:57 PM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > Hi, > > If this is off-topic, my apologies, but I know some of y'all were > there (Noel), so I'm hoping it's close enough to on-topic to garner a > successful response. I'm looking for the ARPANET Protocol Handbook by > Feinler, E. and Postel, J., published by SRI back in the day (revised > edition 1978) in an online format (pdf preferably, but anything > readable is fine. I came across the reference in RFC 790 - Assigned > Numbers. If it's been superceded and the successor is available, that > would probably work, too. Although, I prefer the earlier works for > concision. > > Regards, > > Will > From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jul 2 21:38:43 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 19:38:43 -0700 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4105C58E-F611-4675-B011-E5116C8FCF77@reanimators.org> On Jul 2, 2020, at 18:55, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: > NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; > > go here and search on the author name > > https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ > > Steve Searching on author Feinler confirmed my recollection of a successor document, the ?DDN Protocol Handbook? in three volumes. (Volume 1 available as PDF from this source.) These collect RFCs and other documents, often with MIL-STD numbers. Not entirely replaceable from the IETF?s RFC filepile. -Frank McConnell From will.senn at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 21:48:53 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 21:48:53 -0500 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> Message-ID: Steve, That did the trick! Thanks. Sometimes, I loath standard search engines. I didn't even know about NTRL - a treasure trove, indeed. Thanks, Will On 7/2/20 8:55 PM, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: > NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; > > go here and search on the author name > > https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ > > ?Steve > > > > On 7/2/2020 4:57 PM, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: >> Hi, >> >> If this is off-topic, my apologies, but I know some of y'all were >> there (Noel), so I'm hoping it's close enough to on-topic to garner a >> successful response. I'm looking for the ARPANET Protocol Handbook by >> Feinler, E. and Postel, J., published by SRI back in the day (revised >> edition 1978) in an online format (pdf preferably, but anything >> readable is fine. I came across the reference in RFC 790 - Assigned >> Numbers. If it's been superceded and the successor is available, that >> would probably work, too. Although, I prefer the earlier works for >> concision. >> >> Regards, >> >> Will >> > -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From will.senn at gmail.com Thu Jul 2 21:49:53 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 21:49:53 -0500 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: <4105C58E-F611-4675-B011-E5116C8FCF77@reanimators.org> References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> <4105C58E-F611-4675-B011-E5116C8FCF77@reanimators.org> Message-ID: On 7/2/20 9:38 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > On Jul 2, 2020, at 18:55, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: >> NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; >> >> go here and search on the author name >> >> https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ >> >> Steve > Searching on author Feinler confirmed my recollection of a successor document, the ?DDN Protocol Handbook? in three volumes. (Volume 1 available as PDF from this source.) These collect RFCs and other documents, often with MIL-STD numbers. Not entirely replaceable from the IETF?s RFC filepile. > > -Frank McConnell > Frank, Great find. Thanks! Will -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From fmc at reanimators.org Thu Jul 2 23:20:28 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2020 21:20:28 -0700 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: References: <2a010336-4770-5f2d-20cc-15bcc21f4559@gmail.com> <4105C58E-F611-4675-B011-E5116C8FCF77@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <3861F6E6-5B8F-4D72-A84C-1EEFAC0DB3B4@reanimators.org> On Jul 2, 2020, at 19:49, Will Senn via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/2/20 9:38 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: >> On Jul 2, 2020, at 18:55, s shumaker via cctalk wrote: >>> NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; >>> >>> go here and search on the author name >>> >>> https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ >>> >>> Steve >> Searching on author Feinler confirmed my recollection of a successor document, the ?DDN Protocol Handbook? in three volumes. (Volume 1 available as PDF from this source.) These collect RFCs and other documents, often with MIL-STD numbers. Not entirely replaceable from the IETF?s RFC filepile. >> >> -Frank McConnell >> > Frank, > > Great find. Thanks! The one you are looking for describes the NCP-era ARPANET. The ?DDN Protocol Handbook? describes the IP/TCP-era DDN. -Frank McConnell From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jul 3 07:27:15 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:27:15 +0100 Subject: Internet Archive and robots.txt Message-ID: When I try http://www.openvms.digital.com/openvms/os/openvms-release-history.html in archive.org I get the usual: "Sorry. This URL has been excluded from the Wayback Machine." That's supposed to be because robots.txt prevents spidering so the Internet Archive takes down the pages (even if they were previously available, it seems). But digital.com is back and if you go far enough down https://digital.com/about/ you'll see that they know where the domain came from. So if whoever now controls digital.com could be persuaded to ask, would the Internet Archive allow those digital.com pages back out into the open again? (I'm asking here because I think there's at least one person on this list who might be able to provide a reasonably authoritative answer). I did happen to notice that dec.com is back too ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 3 09:21:42 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 10:21:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online Message-ID: <20200703142142.A7EE118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Will Senn > I know some of y'all were there (Noel) I'm you're huckleberry (sort of; I didn't work on building the ARPANet, but I built a number of boxes which were attached to it, later). > I'm looking for the ARPANET Protocol Handbook I have a hardcopy; the January 1978 version. (No, I can't scan it; it's bound and 1/5" thick, and I don't wish to dwestroy it to scan it - but see below). > by Feinler, E. and Postel, J. They were just the editors; most of the content was written by others. It contains a whole raft of individual documents, most of them RFCs, and some "NIC"s - similar documents available through the NIC, but generally only in hardcopy form (like the earliest RFCs). Many of the most important non-RFC ones are available here: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html at the bottom of the page. I will create a page which lists the contents of the APH, since I gather it doesn't seem to be online. I'll email the list with the URL once I get it up. Any that are important, and not otherwise available online, I can scan; I've done one (NIC 29588) in the past. > If it's been superceded and the successor is available There were _successor_ documents, like the IPH, but they covered entirely different material. There likely was more then one version of the APH, as inididual documents in it were added/modified; I have no confirmatorion on that, though. Noel From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Jul 3 09:24:04 2020 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 09:24:04 -0500 Subject: Unisys MCP (was: Re: UniSys ClearPath OS/2200 Express?) In-Reply-To: References: <419656da-cf9c-8332-6453-99acff16abce@snowmoose.com> <20200702200516.GA2772@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <20200703142404.GA8031@RawFedDogs.net> Alan, On Thu, Jul 02, 2020 at 01:41:53PM -0700, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > I have never had Windows stop working despite not activating it and have > gone at least 6 months without doing so. That's encouraging. > I have been using those blogs to remind myself of how it all work. As someone new to MCP they've been a big help. This morning I started reading through the system operations guide, 86000387-512. Some concepts are going to take some getting used to. MCP physical and logical files are a bit different than AS/400 physical and logical files. Also, according to the system operations guide, a CD-ROM is a magnetized disk. I thought all CD-ROMs were optical disks. > I did my day-to-day work with CANDE (Command AND Editor) and with MCP > Express one get to that through MARC. However, when I run the MARC > script, the Windows VM crashes. This blog post: https://Unite.org/wp/tuning-the-mcp-express-installation/ says that other terminal emulators can be used to access the communications interfaces, including MARC and CANDE. Does anyone know how? I've tried connecting with PuTTY to the standard telnet port and the port the included MARC terminal shortcut uses to no avail. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 3 09:44:38 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 10:44:38 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online Message-ID: <20200703144438.D43AE18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steve Shumaker > NTRL has 3 published versions listed with two available as pdf downloads; > https://ntrl.ntis.gov/NTRL/ Good find! The ADA052594 one is the one I have. The other one has older versions of some things. So I won't need to scan anything; but I will put up a machine-readable TOC. Noel From will.senn at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 10:35:48 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 10:35:48 -0500 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: <20200703142142.A7EE118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200703142142.A7EE118C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <824b6095-9d5e-48b4-c8ba-569f9c47f0fa@gmail.com> On 7/3/20 9:21 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > It contains a whole raft of individual documents, most of them RFCs, and some > "NIC"s - similar documents available through the NIC, but generally only in > hardcopy form (like the earliest RFCs). > > Many of the most important non-RFC ones are available here: > > http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/arpanet.html > > at the bottom of the page. Your writeup and the links are quite helpful - like most stuff like this, I lack the historical context and appreciate it when folks fill in the gaps like this. > I will create a page which lists the contents of the APH, since I > gather it doesn't seem to be online. I'll email the list with the URL > once I get it up. > Great idea. If I'd come across a TOC, I would have had a better idea of how far to pursue the primary material. In this case, it was worth the effort, regardless. A bit of a ranting reflection: I love the way these early works were written. To my mind, sometime around the mid 1980's folks started baking in so many more assumptions than the early writers that their work needlessly confuses newbies. Thankfully, we seem to be cycling back around to better documentation in some sectors of the tech world (FreeBSD manpages are one example). It's like back in the day, everybody was new enough to the ideas that they had to be carefully explained, terms had to be defined (agreed upon), clear, and detailed examples had to be provided for pretty much any task that was needed. Then once folks had a community going, they jargonified it mercilessly, started the whole RTFM clique and littered the literature with their private language. This continued for a number of decades. In the early 1990's The baby BSD's, Linux, and Minix were born and while at first it was all geeks, eventually, lots of people with all kinds of backgrounds started delving into them. Here we are in 2020 and the number of folks playing around with network related material (and the OSes that make this playground pleasurable) is at an all time high. This generation wouldn't know a bit from a bridle and so they need the clear explanations, agreed upon language, and detailed examples once again. Unfortunately, the accretion of relevant material over the decades makes even fairly well written works gargantuan and by their very size, difficult to grasp easily. So, for this reason primarily I like the classics :). The good news is I'm starting to see a return to the heart of the style in some corners. Let's hope it continues. While the struggles of figuring things out the hard way has some degree of merit, a well written document that is relevant to the task at hand is like having a mentor at hand. I'll never forget installing Unix v6 on a SIMH emulated PDP 11, way back in 2015, with only my printed copy of "SETTING UP UNIX ? Sixth Edition" by Dennis Ritchie at hand. After I learned what a disk pack was (unbelievable) and how it related to the devices provided by SIMH (thanks Noel and other SIMH/TUHS folks), I was able to follow his instructions exactly and boot up a then forty-some year old OS. In the process, I gained a great deal of respect for his ability to virtually apprentice someone in the black art of research unix even decades later. Back in the present: Many thanks Noel and those of y'all who are similarly minded, for your efforts to sustain correct history and its attendant explicit and tacit knowledge. Keep up the good work! Regards, Will From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 3 19:19:13 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 20:19:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online Message-ID: <20200704001913.0A11E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I will create a page which lists the contents of the APH .. I'll email > the list with the URL once I get it up. OK, it's at: http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/arpaprot.html I'll link to it from all the usual places (e.g. the 'ARPANET Technical Information' page) later. The main protocol documents are hyperlinked in; I'll do the RFCs later. Also, it's missing a few TELNET entries, I'll add them later too. > it's bound and 1/5" thick Old typo - 1-1/2". Noel From will.senn at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 22:13:33 2020 From: will.senn at gmail.com (Will Senn) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 22:13:33 -0500 Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online In-Reply-To: <20200704001913.0A11E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20200704001913.0A11E18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 7/3/20 7:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > I will create a page which lists the contents of the APH .. I'll email > > the list with the URL once I get it up. > > OK, it's at: > > http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/arpaprot.html > > I'll link to it from all the usual places (e.g. the 'ARPANET Technical > Information' page) later. The main protocol documents are hyperlinked in; I'll > do the RFCs later. Also, it's missing a few TELNET entries, I'll add them > later too. > > > it's bound and 1/5" thick > > Old typo - 1-1/2". > > Noel It looks great. Thanks, Noel! -- GPG Fingerprint: 68F4 B3BD 1730 555A 4462 7D45 3EAA 5B6D A982 BAAF From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Jul 4 01:13:16 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 23:13:16 -0700 Subject: MVME332XT documentation? Message-ID: I?ve acquired a couple of MVME332XT (plus port panels and cabling) and was surprised to find that there?s very little documentation online, only a few references for setting up the board as part of specific systems. And a driver for it in OpenBSD 5.5?for their mvme88k platform only, because for some reason they don?t share drivers between all the VME platforms. Does anyone have scanned or printed documentation for the MVME332XT? How about document number MVME332XTFW, about the 332?s firmware? ? Chris Sent from my iPad From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Jul 4 01:50:18 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 09:50:18 +0300 Subject: MVME332XT documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here you go http://m88k.com/files/ On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:13 AM Chris Hanson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I?ve acquired a couple of MVME332XT (plus port panels and cabling) and was > surprised to find that there?s very little documentation online, only a few > references for setting up the board as part of specific systems. And a > driver for it in OpenBSD 5.5?for their mvme88k platform only, because for > some reason they don?t share drivers between all the VME platforms. > > Does anyone have scanned or printed documentation for the MVME332XT? How > about document number MVME332XTFW, about the 332?s firmware? > > ? Chris > > Sent from my iPad > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Jul 4 02:07:59 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 00:07:59 -0700 Subject: MVME332XT documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <512E13DD-368F-49F2-BE04-CDE50A9198AA@eschatologist.net> Excellent, thank you! ? Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Jul 4 03:47:26 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 01:47:26 -0700 Subject: MVME332XT documentation? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2A89A31A-037D-45B5-95AF-34CF858B64B0@eschatologist.net> Just so you know, the file named MVME332XT is actually MVME332XTFW and the one named MVME332XTFW/D2 is actually MVME332XT/S2, which is apparently a release note for Motorola System V driver update for the board. Do you also happen to have the installation & user guide? ? Chris Sent from my iPad > On Jul 3, 2020, at 11:50 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > > ? > Here you go http://m88k.com/files/ > >> On Sat, Jul 4, 2020 at 9:13 AM Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: >> I?ve acquired a couple of MVME332XT (plus port panels and cabling) and was surprised to find that there?s very little documentation online, only a few references for setting up the board as part of specific systems. And a driver for it in OpenBSD 5.5?for their mvme88k platform only, because for some reason they don?t share drivers between all the VME platforms. >> >> Does anyone have scanned or printed documentation for the MVME332XT? How about document number MVME332XTFW, about the 332?s firmware? >> >> ? Chris >> >> Sent from my iPad From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jul 4 16:19:28 2020 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2020 17:19:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Location of ARPANET Protocol Handbook or its successor, online Message-ID: <20200704211928.C097518C090@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > hyperlinked in; I'll do the RFCs later. Also, it's missing a few TELNET > entries, I'll add them later too. All done. Also, I remenbered that Dave Walden made the three main ARPNET papers availalble online recently, so I added links to them on the 'ARPANET Technical Information' page. I highly recommend those to anyone who wants to know more about the details of the ARPANET's operation; they're really good. Noel From jonas at otter.se Fri Jul 3 03:43:00 2020 From: jonas at otter.se (Jonas Otter) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 10:43:00 +0200 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16997682-7fc6-0765-32ab-1fcecdbdc489@otter.se> On 2020-07-02 19:00,jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 6 > Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:51:42 -0500 > From: > To: "'Paul Koning'" , "'General Discussion: > On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" , "'Tony > Nicholson'" > Subject: RE: More DECnet/E items > Message-ID: <001801d64fd0$47911290$d6b337b0$@classiccmp.org> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > ---------- > Nice. I looked at fixing RT11 RTS applications like MACRO, but that's not > possible because the RT11 date format stops in the early 21st century (5 bit > year field). Perhaps RT-11 has created a solution, but if so I don't know > it. > ---------- > > It was my understanding that Jerome Fine did y2k fixes (commercially) for > rt11 years ago. Is he still around the list? > > J Apparently Jerome Fine has not posted anything since July 2016. I believe he is/was retired and fairly old, it might be that he is deceased. From julf at julf.com Fri Jul 3 04:24:37 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:24:37 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) Message-ID: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Hi! I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G disks in them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, but there probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either (I am in Amsterdam). Julf From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jul 3 04:42:54 2020 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 11:42:54 +0200 Subject: gunkies.org (computer history wiki) domain expired Message-ID: Registry Expiry Date: 2020-07-03T15:46:18Z Anyone in touch with Tore? Noel? From julf at julf.com Fri Jul 3 07:50:41 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 14:50:41 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) Message-ID: <456e747b-6bb0-00d9-60b8-4ad999d074cb@julf.com> Hi! I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G disks in them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, but there probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either (I am in Amsterdam). Julf From steerex at ccvn.com Fri Jul 3 12:05:08 2020 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2020 13:05:08 -0400 Subject: HP MPE and HP-UX Install Tapes Message-ID: <2c652c39-5c5a-649a-e902-6abbc3085ef9@ccvn.com> Hey Guys, Digging around I found some more stuff that I had forgotten about. Note these are the original, HP 9-track, 1/2 inch, 1600 BPI, tapes. They are NOT copies. All had been stored indoors in a climate controlled environment and should be 100% readable. Some of the reels are 600 ft, some are 1200 ft, some are 2400 ft. -- HP-PA support for the series 800 tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 82436-13500 REV A.B8.00 DATE CODE 3113 support format -- -- HP-UX 8.0 INSTALL HP9000 HP-UX Series 800 tape 1/1 P/N 82436-13509 REV A.B8.00 Date Code 3113 Install format -- -- MPE/V Release 40 Patch for the HP 3000 P/N 32033-10469 tape 1/1 NMSTORE FORMAT -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 COMP. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3845-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 RTS. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3847-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 DEV. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3843-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE V Release 3P FOS Tape tape 1/1 SYSDUMP format P/N 32033-10452 REV G.3P.00 Date Code 3419 -- -- MPE V RELEASE 40 for the HP3000 Turbo update tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 32033-10461 and PN/32033-10462 REV G.40.00 TU Format (I don't think you can boot this format) -- -- HP9000 Series 800 CUSTOMIZED HP-UX CORE and SUBSYS Tapes 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 Release 0800 VUF A.B8.00. UPDATE Format I think the customized label is because I had ordered these tapes from HP many years ago. Since support had expired, the additional software that's on the tapes does not require passwords to install. As I recall, the tapes include HPBASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, RPG, and possibly some other programs. I could be wrong so don't hold me to it. -- -- MPE V Release 3P for the HP3000 SUBSYS TAPE Store FORMAT Tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 32033-10455 Rev G.3P.00 Date Code 3419 -- Feel free to make an offer but, as with my other stuff, I am not giving them away. I suspect these are pretty rare so, be generous with your offers. Because of packing and shipping, I'd prefer to see all of them go to one place. See ya, -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From rdbrown0au at gmail.com Sun Jul 5 05:14:23 2020 From: rdbrown0au at gmail.com (Rodney Brown) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 20:14:23 +1000 Subject: Has anyone Intel Preview periodicals from 79 on to scan? Message-ID: <599dba23-c49e-85a4-def7-335e2d080bdb@gmail.com> The Wikipedia page for Intel 8086 references the Intel Preview periodical, specifically these issues. Intel Corporation (May?June 1979).? Intel Preview Intel Corporation (January?February 1980). Intel Preview Intel Corporation (May?June 1980).? Intel Preview (Special Issue: 16-Bit Solutions) These don't seem to be available on the Net. They don't seem to be on BitSavers or in the Computer History Museum collection. Worldcat shows one issue available in the University of Catalonia library - not these issues. If someone has copies of these issues or more, scanning them for bitsavers would be great, if that is possible. Universitat Polit?cnica de Catalunya?? UPC?? Barcelona, 08034 Spain https://cataleg.upc.edu/search/?searchscope=1&searchtype=h&searcharg=(ocolc)803251993 Title ??? Intel preview Imprint/production ??? Santa Clara, CA : Intel Corporation, 198?-1981 Description ??? il.; 28 cm Current Frequency ??? Bimensual Note ??? Descripci? basada en: (nov.- dec. 1980) Subject ??? Microordinadors -- Revistes Added Author ??? Intel Corporation Continued By ??? Solutions Library??? ETSEIB - D709 Holdings??? (1980 N6-7) The "Solutions" periodical continuing "Preview" is in more libraries (according to WorldCat), so it's possible that "Preview" is bound with "Solutions"? somewhere. https://search.lib.utexas.edu/discovery/fulldisplay?docid=alma991024544269706011&context=L&vid=01UTAU_INST:SEARCH&lang=en&search_scope=MyInstitution&adaptor=Local%20Search%20Engine&tab=LibraryCatalog&query=any,contains,10331599&offset=0 Title:? Solutions. Uniform title:? Solutions (U.S. ed. : Santa Clara, Calif.) Related titles complete edition : Solutions (European ed. : Santa Clara, Calif.) Later title : Microcomputer solutions (U.S. ed.) Publisher: Santa Clara, Calif. : Intel Corp., -1987 -Sept./Oct. 1987. Edition: [U.S. ed.]. Format v. : ill. ; 28 cm. Notes Edition statement supplied. Description based on: Mar./Apr. 1983; title from cover. Genre Periodicals. Subject Microcomputers Intel Corporation Contributor Intel Corporation. Identifier LC : sn 88003659 ISSN : 1041-8547 OCLC : (OCoLC)10331599 Type: Journal Creation Date:? -1987 Frequency:? Bimonthly From steerex at ccvn.com Sun Jul 5 08:47:34 2020 From: steerex at ccvn.com (Steve Robertson) Date: Sun, 5 Jul 2020 09:47:34 -0400 Subject: Original HP MPE and HP-UX install tapes Message-ID: <3c71d415-fd25-ae39-2cf8-25ffeda4f638@ccvn.com> Hey, Digging around I found some more stuff that I had forgotten about. Note these are the original, HP 9-track, 1/2 inch, 1600 BPI, tapes. They are NOT copies. All had been stored indoors in a climate controlled environment and should be 100% readable. Some of the reels are 600 ft, some are 1200 ft, some are 2400 ft. -- HP-PA support for the series 800 tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 82436-13500 REV A.B8.00 DATE CODE 3113 support format -- -- HP-UX 8.0 INSTALL HP9000 HP-UX Series 800 tape 1/1 P/N 82436-13509 REV A.B8.00 Date Code 3113 Install format -- -- MPE/V Release 40 Patch for the HP 3000 P/N 32033-10469 tape 1/1 NMSTORE FORMAT -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 COMP. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3845-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 RTS. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3847-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 DEV. for the HP3000 6250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1 P/N B3843-10007 REV A.10.25 -- -- MPE V Release 3P FOS Tape tape 1/1 SYSDUMP format P/N 32033-10452 REV G.3P.00 Date Code 3419 -- -- MPE V RELEASE 40 for the HP3000 Turbo update tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 32033-10461 and PN/32033-10462 REV G.40.00 TU Format (I don't think you can boot this format) -- -- HP9000 Series 800 CUSTOMIZED HP-UX CORE and SUBSYS Tapes 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3 Release 0800 VUF A.B8.00. UPDATE Format I think the customized label is because I had ordered these tapes from HP many years ago. Since support had expired, the additional software that's on the tapes does not require passwords to install. As I recall, the tapes include HPBASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, RPG, and possibly some other programs. I could be wrong so don't hold me to it. -- -- MPE V Release 3P for the HP3000 SUBSYS TAPE Store FORMAT Tapes 1/2 and 2/2 P/N 32033-10455 Rev G.3P.00 Date Code 3419 -- Feel free to make an offer but, as with my other stuff, I am not giving them away. I suspect these are pretty rare so, be generous with your offers. Because of packing and shipping, I'd prefer to see all of them go to one place. See ya, -- Steve Robertson steerex at ccvn.com From nw.johnson at ieee.org Mon Jul 6 15:22:31 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 16:22:31 -0400 Subject: More DECnet/E items In-Reply-To: <16997682-7fc6-0765-32ab-1fcecdbdc489@otter.se> References: <16997682-7fc6-0765-32ab-1fcecdbdc489@otter.se> Message-ID: <7acc1b5e-c670-831c-53f5-85295076b193@ieee.org> No, I spoke to him in April/May and had? a date booked to go and pick up stuff from his home, but then the warning about social distancing came about and he told me to postpone. At the time he was moving from his house and wanted everything gone, but I don't know if he has done that yet as he has not called to re-schedule the pickup of what he is throwing out :-( cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 03/07/2020 04:43, Jonas Otter via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-07-02 19:00,jwest at classiccmp.org wrote: > >> Message: 6 >> Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2020 12:51:42 -0500 >> From: >> To: "'Paul Koning'" , "'General Discussion: >> On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" , "'Tony >> Nicholson'" >> Subject: RE: More DECnet/E items >> Message-ID: <001801d64fd0$47911290$d6b337b0$@classiccmp.org> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >> >> ---------- >> Nice. I looked at fixing RT11 RTS applications like MACRO, but that's not >> possible because the RT11 date format stops in the early 21st century (5 bit >> year field). Perhaps RT-11 has created a solution, but if so I don't know >> it. >> ---------- >> >> It was my understanding that Jerome Fine did y2k fixes (commercially) for >> rt11 years ago. Is he still around the list? >> >> J > Apparently Jerome Fine has not posted anything since July 2016. I believe he is/was retired and fairly old, it might be that he is deceased. > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 6 15:25:41 2020 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:25:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Original HP MPE and HP-UX install tapes In-Reply-To: <3c71d415-fd25-ae39-2cf8-25ffeda4f638@ccvn.com> References: <3c71d415-fd25-ae39-2cf8-25ffeda4f638@ccvn.com> Message-ID: <1452072694.1461359.1594067141638@mail.yahoo.com> Steve we can use all mpe5 tape for our series 37 mighty mouse we are restoring at smecc what can we do? than ks? ? ed? sharpe archivist? for smecc? www.smecc.org? ?In a message dated 7/6/2020 1:20:05 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes:? Hey,?Digging around I found some more stuff that I had forgotten about. Note these are the original, HP 9-track, 1/2 inch, 1600 BPI, tapes. They are NOT copies. All had been stored indoors in a climate controlled environment and should be 100% readable.?Some of the reels are 600 ft, some are 1200 ft, some are 2400 ft.?-- HP-PA support for the series 800 tapes 1/2 and 2/2P/N 82436-13500 REV A.B8.00 DATE CODE 3113support format-- ?-- HP-UX 8.0 INSTALLHP9000 HP-UX Series 800 tape 1/1P/N 82436-13509 REV A.B8.00 Date Code 3113Install format-- ?-- MPE/V Release 40 Patch for the HP 3000P/N 32033-10469 tape 1/1NMSTORE FORMAT-- ?-- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 COMP. for the HP30006250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1P/N B3845-10007 REV A.10.25-- ?-- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 RTS. for the HP30006250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1P/N B3847-10007 REV A.10.25-- ?-- MPE/IX COBOL 5.5 DEV. for the HP30006250 BPI MNSTORE FORMAT tape 1/1P/N B3843-10007 REV A.10.25-- ?-- MPE V Release 3PFOS Tape tape 1/1 SYSDUMP formatP/N 32033-10452 REV G.3P.00 Date Code 3419-- ?-- MPE V RELEASE 40 for the HP3000Turbo update? tapes 1/2 and 2/2P/N 32033-10461 and PN/32033-10462 REV G.40.00TU Format (I don't think you can boot this format)-- ?-- HP9000 Series 800CUSTOMIZED HP-UX CORE and SUBSYSTapes 1/3, 2/3, and 3/3Release 0800 VUF A.B8.00. UPDATE Format?I think the customized label is because I had ordered these tapes from HP many years ago. Since support had expired, the additional software that's on the tapes does not require passwords to install. As I recall, the tapes include HPBASIC, COBOL, FORTRAN, RPG, and possibly some other programs. I could be wrong so don't hold me to it.-- ?-- MPE V Release 3P for the HP3000SUBSYS TAPE Store FORMATTapes 1/2 and 2/2P/N 32033-10455 Rev G.3P.00 Date Code 3419-- ?Feel free to make an offer but, as with my other stuff, I am not giving them away. I suspect these are pretty rare so, be generous with your offers. Because of packing and shipping, I'd prefer to see all of them go to one place.?See ya,?-- Steve Robertsonsteerex at ccvn.com From mcr at martin-reilly.com Mon Jul 6 15:27:59 2020 From: mcr at martin-reilly.com (martin-reilly.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 21:27:59 +0100 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <456e747b-6bb0-00d9-60b8-4ad999d074cb@julf.com> References: <456e747b-6bb0-00d9-60b8-4ad999d074cb@julf.com> Message-ID: <63E4C31D-FD30-4063-8C93-01E20B6F09C8@martin-reilly.com> Are these Storageworks caddies? I?d be interested in a few, happy to cover postage to U.K. :) > On 6 Jul 2020, at 21:21, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hi! > > I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G disks in > them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, but there > probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either (I am in > Amsterdam). > > Julf > > From mcr at martin-reilly.com Mon Jul 6 15:27:59 2020 From: mcr at martin-reilly.com (martin-reilly.com) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 21:27:59 +0100 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <456e747b-6bb0-00d9-60b8-4ad999d074cb@julf.com> References: <456e747b-6bb0-00d9-60b8-4ad999d074cb@julf.com> Message-ID: <63E4C31D-FD30-4063-8C93-01E20B6F09C8@martin-reilly.com> Are these Storageworks caddies? I?d be interested in a few, happy to cover postage to U.K. :) > On 6 Jul 2020, at 21:21, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > ?Hi! > > I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G disks in > them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, but there > probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either (I am in > Amsterdam). > > Julf > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 6 16:54:10 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 15:54:10 -0600 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: On 7/3/20 3:24 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > Hi! Hi, > I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G > disks in them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, > but there probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either > (I am in Amsterdam). /Which/ caddie are they? Can we see a picture of them? Both the front visible from outside of the system and the connector(s). I'm aware of two major families of caddies (near) that time. The older type with the drive on a sled with a card edge connector, and the newer type with a frame that clams around the drive (these may have only been SCA). I believe the older card edge type used 68-pin UW, 50-pin SCSI-II, and maybe SCA connectors. I think the old card edge type also came in 1/2 height and 1/3 height. (It might have been the same sled with different lids. I suspect that there may be an interested party or three in the sleds. Depending on the health of the drives, there may be interested parties for them too. If I needed one of those drives, I'd be willing to pay $1 / GB plus shipping and handling if they were known to be good. (If I needed them) I would buy them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives and said they passed. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jul 6 19:57:28 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:57:28 -0400 Subject: gunkies.org (computer history wiki) domain expired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21891d5a-db5a-ad57-bd7c-477ef634b756@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-07-03 5:42 a.m., Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > Registry Expiry Date: 2020-07-03T15:46:18Z > > Anyone in touch with Tore? Noel? > I pinged Tore a few days ago, appears to be back $ dig +short gunkies.org 158.36.191.230 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Jul 6 19:57:28 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 6 Jul 2020 20:57:28 -0400 Subject: gunkies.org (computer history wiki) domain expired In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21891d5a-db5a-ad57-bd7c-477ef634b756@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-07-03 5:42 a.m., Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > Registry Expiry Date: 2020-07-03T15:46:18Z > > Anyone in touch with Tore? Noel? > I pinged Tore a few days ago, appears to be back $ dig +short gunkies.org 158.36.191.230 From skynet at wans.net Mon Jul 6 21:08:13 2020 From: skynet at wans.net (STAN IRWIN) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:08:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama References: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774@mail.yahoo.com> I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price seems to be about 10k (!). Anyone interested should go to this link: Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System 36 34 | Almost Anything - And then use the chat feature on the webpage - the owner will respond to you with info on the system. I have no relationship with this seller, just wanted fellow collectors with interest in "Big Iron" to know it is available. Stan Irwin From skynet at wans.net Mon Jul 6 21:22:27 2020 From: skynet at wans.net (STAN IRWIN) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 02:22:27 +0000 (UTC) Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama References: <595059455.446343.1594088547239.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <595059455.446343.1594088547239@mail.yahoo.com> Sorry. Looks like the link did not transfer. Try www.almostanythingopelika.com to get to the site. Stan From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 09:48:18 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:48:18 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 6 Jul 2020 at 22:19, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > Hi! > > I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G disks in > them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, but there > probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either (I am in > Amsterdam). I would also suggest advertising or offering these online. Vintage Mac collectors, as well as all manner of vintage UNIX box collectors, are finding it increasingly difficult to find SCSI drives these days. Some are happy to go with SCSI2SD but for others it lacks authenticity, or they want the speeds, noises etc. too. I suspect you will easily find people who would take them for _at least_ the cost of shipping them. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From julf at julf.com Tue Jul 7 10:03:54 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:03:54 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: On 06-07-2020 23:54, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > /Which/ caddie are they?? Can we see a picture of them?? Both the front visible from outside of the system and the connector(s). Pictures at https://imgur.com/a/iJU6YBH The drives are Ultra Wide 3 SCSI. I think they are the same as this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Compaq-BD009122BA-127962-001-9-1GB-10K-RPM-Wide-Ultra2-SCSI/373023236024 > I would buy them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives and said they passed. Unfortunately I won't be able to do any testing as I am too much in the middle of trying to (urgently) clear out things. Julf From julf at julf.com Tue Jul 7 10:05:49 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:05:49 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> On 07-07-2020 16:48, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I would also suggest advertising or offering these online. Vintage Mac > collectors, as well as all manner of vintage UNIX box collectors, are > finding it increasingly difficult to find SCSI drives these days. Some > are happy to go with SCSI2SD but for others it lacks authenticity, or > they want the speeds, noises etc. too. Thanks - good hint. I was a bit surprised to see the prices people are asking on fleabay. Julf From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 10:46:45 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:46:45 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 17:05, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > > Thanks - good hint. I was a bit surprised to see the prices people are asking on fleabay. I think I sold my last 2 or 3 before I emigrated for circa ?50 each. 5.25" HD floppy drives went for more than that. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 10:47:44 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:47:44 +0200 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774@mail.yahoo.com> References: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <373666278.1571952.1594087693774@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 04:08, STAN IRWIN via cctalk wrote: > > I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price seems to be about 10k (!). > > Anyone interested should go to this link: > Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System 36 34 | Almost Anything That is not a link, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had never heard of "Almost anything" before. The items are in Alabama, in the USA. This seems to be the keyboard: https://www.almostanythingopelika.com/product-page/vintage-1979-ibm-5251-beam-spring-mechanical-keyboard-7361073-system-36-34 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alessandro.mazzini at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 10:45:34 2020 From: alessandro.mazzini at gmail.com (Alessandro Mazzini) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:45:34 +0200 Subject: R: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> Message-ID: <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from the point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing since months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Johan Helsingius via cctalk Inviato: marted? 7 luglio 2020 17:06 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) On 07-07-2020 16:48, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I would also suggest advertising or offering these online. Vintage Mac > collectors, as well as all manner of vintage UNIX box collectors, are > finding it increasingly difficult to find SCSI drives these days. Some > are happy to go with SCSI2SD but for others it lacks authenticity, or > they want the speeds, noises etc. too. Thanks - good hint. I was a bit surprised to see the prices people are asking on fleabay. Julf From julf at julf.com Tue Jul 7 11:52:27 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:52:27 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> Message-ID: On 07-07-2020 17:46, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I think I sold my last 2 or 3 before I emigrated for circa ?50 each. > 5.25" HD floppy drives went for more than that. Wow! I guess I have been a bit hasty with taking stuff to recycling. :-/ Wonder if someone would be interested in either of these: https://www.cnet.com/products/compaq-proliant-6000-pii-xeon-400-mhz-monitor-none-series/ https://www.harddrivesdirect.com/quickspecs_proliant_DL380G1.php Julf From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 11:52:07 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:52:07 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 18:14, Alessandro Mazzini via cctalk wrote: > > Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from the point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing since months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one I often hear comments like this, but I don't really understand them. People pay what they are willing to pay. It is not like Amazon where bots watch other bots and raise the prices of rare books in a spiral anti-bidding-war. Sure, they are places where, as a buyer, you may find bargains -- but as a seller, what is the appeal of selling somewhere that will make you less money? eBay is easy, it works worldwide (or as nearly as anyone does), the seller fees are low, and it has a large catchment audience. I have sold a lot of stuff there, and bought some too. It does the job. I often see people on here saying go to some obscure website or other instead, but most of those are US-based. I am not in the USA and don't want to be. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From julf at julf.com Tue Jul 7 11:53:37 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:53:37 +0200 Subject: R: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07-07-2020 17:45, Alessandro Mazzini wrote: > Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from the point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing since months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one Not disagreeing. Julf From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 7 12:29:09 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 13:29:09 -0400 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> Message-ID: <143B1F13-6F78-4FDB-BBAF-158FB244DD5C@comcast.net> > On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:14 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: > > OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I hope. > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 > > Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. > No helpful marking apart from > * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). > * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). > > Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 > B" boxes are, they have four legs? > > A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. > > peter Since CDC was mentioned I forwarded the question to a list of CDC people and CDC system hobbyists. Here's a reply that may be useful: > On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:59 PM, Joe Cychosz <3ksnn64 at ecn.purdue.edu> wrote: > > Originally I said not CDC but I found this on ebay. > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/283900083657 > > I had seen boards like this earlier and have a few but they are LEC (lockhead electronics corporation). Interesting this one has lec on 1 side and cdc on the other side. I suspect CDC manufactured these for LEC. CDC could have been secondary contractor for Lockhead on a government project. > > Joe From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 7 12:46:01 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 10:46:01 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's (was: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSC...) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> On Jul 7, 2020, at 7:48 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > I would also suggest advertising or offering these online. Vintage Mac > collectors, as well as all manner of vintage UNIX box collectors, are > finding it increasingly difficult to find SCSI drives these days. Some > are happy to go with SCSI2SD but for others it lacks authenticity, or > they want the speeds, noises etc. too. Some of us with a good stash of physical drives are contemplating going with SCSI2SD. This last week I?ve been dealing with two Amiga 3000?s. In both cases the original Quantum Fireball drives still work (though the one on my main system is noisy and was formatted before I got it ~23 years ago). The oddball IBM(?) drive I used as a system disk is apparently dead, so I?m thinking SCSI2SD is the way to go. Am I correct that a v5.1 SCSI2SD should work just fine? Anything I need to be aware of? I?ve been interested in these for ages, in part as a way to have quieter systems, but have never purchased one. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 7 12:48:41 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 10:48:41 -0700 Subject: Amiga - AmiFast 3000 Message-ID: <421E937F-7CDB-4390-8D67-6FD85800D675@avanthar.com> Anyone have any experience with these? When I installed in around ?97 or ?98, it just worked. Now I?m seeing 0 bytes of Fast Ram on my Amiga 3000, I just see 2MB Chip RAM. I don?t even know if I can boot a base AmigaOS 3.1 with Video and Ethernet drivers. :-) Zane From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 12:54:56 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:54:56 +0100 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <06bd01d65487$b9f99cb0$2decd610$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via > cctalk > Sent: 07 July 2020 17:52 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) > > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 18:14, Alessandro Mazzini via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from the > > point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing since > > months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one > There are several types of EBay seller of vintage equipment. For things like these COMPAQ sleds there are people who are hoping a big business needs one for something critical that can't easily be upgraded. These people put premium prices on the kit and then don't seem to care if they sell them. So you see server bits like these drive sleds at what we think are silly prices. But if some one needs one they may buy because its cheaper that any other fix...... .. Then there are the folks who sell off-platform, put it on E-Bay at a silly price, then sell it on their own site advertising 50% off the E-bay price.... .. Those who put something on at a silly price because some one else has it on at a silly price and they think its worth that, and they don't sell.... .. But my favourites are those who list something a ?1.00 hoping it will reach a decent value. If its popular it will.... Its not E-Bay that?s expensive, its sellers that are greedy... > I often hear comments like this, but I don't really understand them. > > People pay what they are willing to pay. It is not like Amazon where bots > watch other bots and raise the prices of rare books in a spiral anti-bidding- > war. > > Sure, they are places where, as a buyer, you may find bargains -- but as a > seller, what is the appeal of selling somewhere that will make you less > money? > > eBay is easy, it works worldwide (or as nearly as anyone does), the seller > fees are low, and it has a large catchment audience. I have sold a lot of stuff > there, and bought some too. It does the job. > > I often see people on here saying go to some obscure website or other > instead, but most of those are US-based. I am not in the USA and don't want > to be. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 Dave From ethan at 757.org Tue Jul 7 13:02:02 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:02:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's (was: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSC...) In-Reply-To: <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > Am I correct that a v5.1 SCSI2SD should work just fine? Anything I need > to be aware of? I run a SCSI2SD on my A2500 with whatever SCSI card it has by default. The only issue that I have is the SCSI2SD boots slower than the Amiga, so when I power on the Amiga I have to wait a few seconds then do the A+A+Control reboot three finger salute (or whatever it is.) Before it's ready the Amiga just sits at a white screen forever, but after a reboot the SCSI2SD is ready and it boots fine. Extra FRIGGIN awesome is I can pull the SD card out, shove it in a Win10 laptop and boot the same OS on WinUAE... copy stuff on, pull SD card out stuff it back in the physical system and go. It would be nice if the SCSI2SD was mounted on a expansion cover plate though, with the LEDs visible and the SD card accessible externally. -- : Ethan O'Toole From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Jul 7 13:14:07 2020 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:14:07 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's (was: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSC...) In-Reply-To: <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <023cb034-210b-4d00-8f39-869b54a03fcc@e-bbes.com> On 2020-07-07 13:46, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Am I correct that a v5.1 SCSI2SD should work just fine? Anything I need to be aware of? > > I?ve been interested in these for ages, in part as a way to have quieter systems, but have never purchased one. Not completely to the subject, but I got some of those, and they work nicely on my VAXStation 4000/90, where most other designs failed. Watch for Asia copies of the version 5, go for the "original" 6 from the guy who made it. Just a little trick I use a lot: take a nice big/fast SD_CARD, and partiton it with the first partition of 1GByte, the others to your liking. So you can simply dd your install media on a pc to the sd-card, and install on the real machine from device id0 ... Cheers From nw.johnson at ieee.org Tue Jul 7 14:09:39 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 15:09:39 -0400 Subject: Ancient transistor ?computer board (Peter Van Peborgh) In-Reply-To: <143B1F13-6F78-4FDB-BBAF-158FB244DD5C@comcast.net> References: <038601d645ad$18440ce0$48cc26a0$@vanpeborgh.eu> <143B1F13-6F78-4FDB-BBAF-158FB244DD5C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <97847bd7-1cc9-3724-bc25-c4fcbdd5f055@ieee.org> I just copied the email to a friend who was at CDC ad he says they were from the CDC3100. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 07/07/2020 13:29, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 18, 2020, at 4:14 PM, Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk wrote: >> >> OK, now here are some pics that should be available to everybody. I hope. >> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/h64tye8ecmPHQfJD7 >> >> Smells of (early) 1960s transistorized. >> No helpful marking apart from >> * "GATE JJ01" on SIDE A. (components). >> * "C NT OL DATA" on side B (solder traces). >> >> Big transistors are Motorola "180376008". Also, any ideas what the "246 636 >> B" boxes are, they have four legs? >> >> A curse on TinyURL and praise to Camiel Vanderhoven. >> >> peter > Since CDC was mentioned I forwarded the question to a list of CDC people and CDC system hobbyists. Here's a reply that may be useful: > >> On Jul 6, 2020, at 8:59 PM, Joe Cychosz <3ksnn64 at ecn.purdue.edu> wrote: >> >> Originally I said not CDC but I found this on ebay. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-CONTROL-DATA-Computer-Module-PCB-196Os/283900083657 >> >> I had seen boards like this earlier and have a few but they are LEC (lockhead electronics corporation). Interesting this one has lec on 1 side and cdc on the other side. I suspect CDC manufactured these for LEC. CDC could have been secondary contractor for Lockhead on a government project. >> >> Joe From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jul 7 14:13:31 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:13:31 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: References: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <373666278.1571952.1594087693774@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> I had a lengthy email exchange with Aaron at Almost Anything back in December over the machine. They (Almost Anything) had a 5251 terminal listed on eBay for $699 for a very long time. I originally inquired to see if he had the keyboard for it. He forwarded me a sold eBay link to it for something like $1800. I tried to explain to him that the terminal is pretty much worthless without the keyboard. He wouldn't budge on price. He let me know then that the S/36 was soon to be available. But from our previous context I figured it would be at an insane price point. He did say the previous owner was actively using it in a small business capacity the day before they picked the unit up. It originally had 4 terminals with keyboards. But they've all been separated/sold since except for the one he's providing with the console terminal. He's clearly fishing for a market price. But the starting bait price will influence his value perception. If anyone is seriously interested in it, I do live in Atlanta - about 75 minutes from Opelika, AL. I could be talked into going down and talking a look/photos of it before you buy. I have a soft spot for IBM Midrange and some deep pockets -Alan H. On 2020-07-07 11:47, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 04:08, STAN IRWIN via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal >> and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, >> taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price >> seems to be about 10k (!). >> >> Anyone interested should go to this link: >> Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System >> 36 34 | Almost Anything > > That is not a link, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had > never heard of "Almost anything" before. > > The items are in Alabama, in the USA. > > This seems to be the keyboard: > > https://www.almostanythingopelika.com/product-page/vintage-1979-ibm-5251-beam-spring-mechanical-keyboard-7361073-system-36-34 > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alan at alanlee.org Tue Jul 7 14:13:31 2020 From: alan at alanlee.org (alan at alanlee.org) Date: Tue, 07 Jul 2020 15:13:31 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: References: <373666278.1571952.1594087693774.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <373666278.1571952.1594087693774@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> I had a lengthy email exchange with Aaron at Almost Anything back in December over the machine. They (Almost Anything) had a 5251 terminal listed on eBay for $699 for a very long time. I originally inquired to see if he had the keyboard for it. He forwarded me a sold eBay link to it for something like $1800. I tried to explain to him that the terminal is pretty much worthless without the keyboard. He wouldn't budge on price. He let me know then that the S/36 was soon to be available. But from our previous context I figured it would be at an insane price point. He did say the previous owner was actively using it in a small business capacity the day before they picked the unit up. It originally had 4 terminals with keyboards. But they've all been separated/sold since except for the one he's providing with the console terminal. He's clearly fishing for a market price. But the starting bait price will influence his value perception. If anyone is seriously interested in it, I do live in Atlanta - about 75 minutes from Opelika, AL. I could be talked into going down and talking a look/photos of it before you buy. I have a soft spot for IBM Midrange and some deep pockets -Alan H. On 2020-07-07 11:47, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 04:08, STAN IRWIN via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal >> and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, >> taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price >> seems to be about 10k (!). >> >> Anyone interested should go to this link: >> Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System >> 36 34 | Almost Anything > > That is not a link, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had > never heard of "Almost anything" before. > > The items are in Alabama, in the USA. > > This seems to be the keyboard: > > https://www.almostanythingopelika.com/product-page/vintage-1979-ibm-5251-beam-spring-mechanical-keyboard-7361073-system-36-34 > > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From alessandro.mazzini at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 14:16:12 2020 From: alessandro.mazzini at gmail.com (Alessandro Mazzini) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 21:16:12 +0200 Subject: R: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <00dc01d65493$14247e70$3c6d7b50$@gmail.com> Well, my comment is purely based on "non vintage" specific things. I've a fetish ( ok ok, I know ) for xeons. On current hw there are various things with actually balanced / good prices to be found. But xeons tend to be valued more than they should Again, personal opinion ( and these things are OT since too new ) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Liam Proven via cctalk Inviato: marted? 7 luglio 2020 18:52 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 18:14, Alessandro Mazzini via cctalk wrote: > > Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from the point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing since months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one I often hear comments like this, but I don't really understand them. People pay what they are willing to pay. It is not like Amazon where bots watch other bots and raise the prices of rare books in a spiral anti-bidding-war. Sure, they are places where, as a buyer, you may find bargains -- but as a seller, what is the appeal of selling somewhere that will make you less money? eBay is easy, it works worldwide (or as nearly as anyone does), the seller fees are low, and it has a large catchment audience. I have sold a lot of stuff there, and bought some too. It does the job. I often see people on here saying go to some obscure website or other instead, but most of those are US-based. I am not in the USA and don't want to be. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Jul 7 14:24:24 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:24:24 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> On 7/7/2020 1:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> Am I correct that a v5.1 SCSI2SD should work just fine?? Anything I need to be aware of? > > I run a SCSI2SD on my A2500 with whatever SCSI card it has by default. The only issue that I have is the SCSI2SD boots slower than the Amiga, so when I power on the Amiga I have to wait a few seconds then do the A+A+Control reboot three finger salute (or whatever it is.) Before it's ready the Amiga just sits at a white screen forever, but after a reboot the SCSI2SD is ready and it boots fine. > What version of the SCSD2SD V5 do you have?? The V5.1 was reworked to boot faster (so claims the site here ) and the V6 boots even faster I believe. > Extra FRIGGIN awesome is I can pull the SD card out, shove it in a Win10 laptop and boot the same OS on WinUAE... copy stuff on, pull SD card out stuff it back in the physical system and go. > > It would be nice if the SCSI2SD was mounted on a expansion cover plate though, with the LEDs visible and the SD card accessible externally. > > That's how I them mounted in my MicroVAX 3100 and AlphaServer DS10.? On the Alphaserver I bought the 3.5" bracket and replaced the floppy disk with it.? On the MicroVAX I used the same 3.5" bracket and mounted it in a 5.25" to 3.5" bracket with a homemade baseplate. SCSI2SD mounting bracket: StarTech 3.5" to 5.35" mount > > ?-- : Ethan O'Toole > > -- John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Jul 7 14:28:21 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:28:21 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's In-Reply-To: <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On 7/7/2020 2:24 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 7/7/2020 1:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> Am I correct that a v5.1 SCSI2SD should work just fine?? Anything I need to be aware of? >> >> I run a SCSI2SD on my A2500 with whatever SCSI card it has by default. The only issue that I have is the SCSI2SD boots slower than the Amiga, so when I power on the Amiga I have to wait a few seconds then do the A+A+Control reboot three finger salute (or whatever it is.) Before it's ready the Amiga just sits at a white screen forever, but after a reboot the SCSI2SD is ready and it boots fine. >> > What version of the SCSD2SD V5 do you have?? The V5.1 was reworked to boot faster (so claims the site here ) and the V6 boots even faster I believe. >> Extra FRIGGIN awesome is I can pull the SD card out, shove it in a Win10 laptop and boot the same OS on WinUAE... copy stuff on, pull SD card out stuff it back in the physical system and go. >> >> It would be nice if the SCSI2SD was mounted on a expansion cover plate though, with the LEDs visible and the SD card accessible externally. >> >> > That's how I them mounted in my MicroVAX 3100 and AlphaServer DS10.? On the Alphaserver I bought the 3.5" bracket and replaced the floppy disk with it.? On the MicroVAX I used the same 3.5" bracket and mounted it in a 5.25" to 3.5" bracket with a homemade baseplate. > > > SCSI2SD mounting bracket: > > StarTech 3.5" to 5.35" mount > > >> >> ?-- : Ethan O'Toole >> >> > Oh, I drilled a hole (1/4") through the SCSI2SD mounting bracket and mounted a LED wired to the holes on the PC board. Pro tip: Remove the SCSI2SD card from the bracket before drilling so that when the drill breaks though it doesn't zip in and chew off a couple of the SMD resistors and capacitors... Don't ask me how I know. :-P -- John H. Reinhardt From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 7 14:57:40 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:57:40 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's In-Reply-To: <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: On Jul 7, 2020, at 12:24 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/7/2020 1:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >> I run a SCSI2SD on my A2500 with whatever SCSI card it has by default. The only issue that I have is the SCSI2SD boots slower than the Amiga, so when I power on the Amiga I have to wait a few seconds then do the A+A+Control reboot three finger salute (or whatever it is.) Before it's ready the Amiga just sits at a white screen forever, but after a reboot the SCSI2SD is ready and it boots fine. >> > What version of the SCSD2SD V5 do you have? The V5.1 was reworked to boot faster (so claims the site here ) and the V6 boots even faster I believe. I was wondering about this myself. >> It would be nice if the SCSI2SD was mounted on a expansion cover plate though, with the LEDs visible and the SD card accessible externally. >> > That's how I them mounted in my MicroVAX 3100 and AlphaServer DS10. On the Alphaserver I bought the 3.5" bracket and replaced the floppy disk with it. On the MicroVAX I used the same 3.5" bracket and mounted it in a 5.25" to 3.5" bracket with a homemade baseplate. > > SCSI2SD mounting bracket: Is Inertial Computing a good place to buy from? I was looking at their website. It looks like the latest v6 might be the way to go for Amiga, VAX, and Alpha. With v5.1 making more sense for my PDP-11/73, due to cost, it?s not like I?m going to get 10MB/sec on a Q-Bus backplane. :-) Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 7 14:59:50 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 12:59:50 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's (was: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSC...) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <92701652-872D-42AE-8BDC-D23B0EA76A7F@avanthar.com> > On Jul 7, 2020, at 11:02 AM, Ethan O'Toole wrote: > Extra FRIGGIN awesome is I can pull the SD card out, shove it in a Win10 laptop and boot the same OS on WinUAE... copy stuff on, pull SD card out stuff it back in the physical system and go. I?ll need to read up on doing this with FS-UAE, as I have to start from scratch with my Amiga 3000, since I?ve obviously lost everything. I use a Mac, so WinUAE isn?t an option. I also have a pair of IDE-to-CF adapters that I need to install in my Amiga 600 and Amiga 1200. Zane From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Jul 7 15:04:33 2020 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 15:04:33 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <2bc12a25-60b8-b6ca-b911-58f406ff861c@thereinhardts.org> On 7/7/2020 2:57 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > On Jul 7, 2020, at 12:24 PM, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 7/7/2020 1:02 PM, Ethan O'Toole via cctalk wrote: >>> I run a SCSI2SD on my A2500 with whatever SCSI card it has by default. The only issue that I have is the SCSI2SD boots slower than the Amiga, so when I power on the Amiga I have to wait a few seconds then do the A+A+Control reboot three finger salute (or whatever it is.) Before it's ready the Amiga just sits at a white screen forever, but after a reboot the SCSI2SD is ready and it boots fine. >>> >> What version of the SCSD2SD V5 do you have? The V5.1 was reworked to boot faster (so claims the site here ) and the V6 boots even faster I believe. > > I was wondering about this myself. > >>> It would be nice if the SCSI2SD was mounted on a expansion cover plate though, with the LEDs visible and the SD card accessible externally. >>> >> That's how I them mounted in my MicroVAX 3100 and AlphaServer DS10. On the Alphaserver I bought the 3.5" bracket and replaced the floppy disk with it. On the MicroVAX I used the same 3.5" bracket and mounted it in a 5.25" to 3.5" bracket with a homemade baseplate. >> >> SCSI2SD mounting bracket: > > Is Inertial Computing a good place to buy from? I was looking at their website. It looks like the latest v6 might be the way to go for Amiga, VAX, and Alpha. With v5.1 making more sense for my PDP-11/73, due to cost, it?s not like I?m going to get 10MB/sec on a Q-Bus backplane. :-) > > Zane > > They are. I bought from them just a month and a half ago - the replacement for the "Drilled" board plus another for my PDP-11/xx (53/73/83 depending on which CPU board I feel like using) and it was delivered in 3 days despite shipping from CA to TX in these COVID limited days. I haven't tested but you're probably right in that a V5.1 is probably good for a PDP QBUS SCSI card. -- John H. Reinhardt From ethan at 757.org Tue Jul 7 15:31:03 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:31:03 -0400 (EDT) Subject: SCSI2SD & Amiga's In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <0C6DC2E0-125E-4FF6-9D38-4F94FCB072EC@avanthar.com> <12b5cc3d-3fac-6a8a-3976-1974d3850aa7@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: >> What version of the SCSD2SD V5 do you have? The V5.1 was reworked to >> boot faster (so claims the site here >> >> ) and the V6 boots even faster I believe. No idea, I will look someday when I pull it back out :-) Was working on an IMSAI system currently.. then going to re-battery NeXT. - Ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 7 15:58:49 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 14:58:49 -0600 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> Message-ID: <854c9464-fb73-7fdc-b51c-7afc7902a491@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/7/20 10:52 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: > Wow! I guess I have been a bit hasty with taking stuff to recycling. :-/ It happens. > Wonder if someone would be interested in either of these: I'd bet a coffee and doughnut that someone will be interested. I might be tempted to scratch an itch and play with the 6000 if I were at a swap meet and could pick it up for a song. But I'm not a serious shopper for it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mhs.stein at gmail.com Tue Jul 7 16:30:39 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:30:39 -0400 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Grant Taylor via cctalk" To: Sent: Monday, July 06, 2020 5:54 PM Subject: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) > On 7/3/20 3:24 AM, Johan Helsingius via cctalk wrote: >> Hi! > > Hi, > >> I have a box full of Compaq SCSI server disk caddies (with 9.1G >> disks in them). Feels silly to dump them into e-waste recycling, >> but there probably isn't much point in shipping them very far either >> (I am in Amsterdam). > > /Which/ caddie are they? Can we see a picture of them? Both the front > visible from outside of the system and the connector(s). > > I'm aware of two major families of caddies (near) that time. The older > type with the drive on a sled with a card edge connector, and the newer > type with a frame that clams around the drive (these may have only been > SCA). I believe the older card edge type used 68-pin UW, 50-pin > SCSI-II, and maybe SCA connectors. I think the old card edge type also > came in 1/2 height and 1/3 height. (It might have been the same sled > with different lids. > > I suspect that there may be an interested party or three in the sleds. > Depending on the health of the drives, there may be interested parties > for them too. > > If I needed one of those drives, I'd be willing to pay $1 / GB plus > shipping and handling if they were known to be good. (If I needed them) > I would buy them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives > and said they passed. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die ----- I've got a bunch of 18GB SCA drives like this on the other side of the pond (Toronto) and have been meaning for several years now to set up a box to test them; did actually test one with an 80<>68 pin adapter and it worked, but in the meantime seem to have misplaced the system I used... Any interest to make it worth while? m From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 7 17:49:56 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:49:56 -0600 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <4141f106-60a2-4d1c-fe7d-2026806f7bca@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/7/20 3:30 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > I've got a bunch of 18GB SCA drives like this on the other side of > the pond (Toronto) and have been meaning for several years now to > set up a box to test them; did actually test one with an 80<>68 pin > adapter and it worked, but in the meantime seem to have misplaced > the system I used... I've got a system that can hold four drives and run tests on them in sequence. But your drives there and my system here seems like a non starter. :-/ > Any interest to make it worth while? I'm not personally interested. However.... I know a guy that may have need for some 18 GB drives. Please email me directly (gtaylor (at) thetconsulting (dot) net) with more particulars. I might be able to arrange a new home for a few of the drives. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jgeorge_cctalk at nbi6.com Tue Jul 7 17:55:39 2020 From: jgeorge_cctalk at nbi6.com (Joe George) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:55:39 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> References: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <1B4C5D1D-8250-4A94-A50A-C6C1168A2F01@nbi6.com> Hey Alan! I?m afraid his opening bid will not allow him to come down into the range of realistic prices, but you know how bad I want this machine. :) I was considering a road trip down there to get pictures and see what documentation and software might come with it. If it came with the right goodies I?d be willing to pay more than it?s worth but that?s still a single digit percentage of what he?s asking. Wanna road trip sometime? It might be more productive to reason with him in person with cash in hand. Joe > On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:13 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > ? > I had a lengthy email exchange with Aaron at Almost Anything back in December over the machine. They (Almost Anything) had a 5251 terminal listed on eBay for $699 for a very long time. I originally inquired to see if he had the keyboard for it. He forwarded me a sold eBay link to it for something like $1800. I tried to explain to him that the terminal is pretty much worthless without the keyboard. He wouldn't budge on price. > > He let me know then that the S/36 was soon to be available. But from our previous context I figured it would be at an insane price point. He did say the previous owner was actively using it in a small business capacity the day before they picked the unit up. It originally had 4 terminals with keyboards. But they've all been separated/sold since except for the one he's providing with the console terminal. > > He's clearly fishing for a market price. But the starting bait price will influence his value perception. > > If anyone is seriously interested in it, I do live in Atlanta - about 75 minutes from Opelika, AL. I could be talked into going down and talking a look/photos of it before you buy. I have a soft spot for IBM Midrange and some deep pockets > > -Alan H. > > >> On 2020-07-07 11:47, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: >>> On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 04:08, STAN IRWIN via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price seems to be about 10k (!). >>> Anyone interested should go to this link: >>> Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System 36 34 | Almost Anything >> That is not a link, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had >> never heard of "Almost anything" before. >> The items are in Alabama, in the USA. >> This seems to be the keyboard: >> https://www.almostanythingopelika.com/product-page/vintage-1979-ibm-5251-beam-spring-mechanical-keyboard-7361073-system-36-34 >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com >> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven >> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From jgeorge_cctalk at nbi6.com Tue Jul 7 17:55:39 2020 From: jgeorge_cctalk at nbi6.com (Joe George) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 18:55:39 -0400 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> References: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> Message-ID: <1B4C5D1D-8250-4A94-A50A-C6C1168A2F01@nbi6.com> Hey Alan! I?m afraid his opening bid will not allow him to come down into the range of realistic prices, but you know how bad I want this machine. :) I was considering a road trip down there to get pictures and see what documentation and software might come with it. If it came with the right goodies I?d be willing to pay more than it?s worth but that?s still a single digit percentage of what he?s asking. Wanna road trip sometime? It might be more productive to reason with him in person with cash in hand. Joe > On Jul 7, 2020, at 3:13 PM, alan--- via cctalk wrote: > > ? > I had a lengthy email exchange with Aaron at Almost Anything back in December over the machine. They (Almost Anything) had a 5251 terminal listed on eBay for $699 for a very long time. I originally inquired to see if he had the keyboard for it. He forwarded me a sold eBay link to it for something like $1800. I tried to explain to him that the terminal is pretty much worthless without the keyboard. He wouldn't budge on price. > > He let me know then that the S/36 was soon to be available. But from our previous context I figured it would be at an insane price point. He did say the previous owner was actively using it in a small business capacity the day before they picked the unit up. It originally had 4 terminals with keyboards. But they've all been separated/sold since except for the one he's providing with the console terminal. > > He's clearly fishing for a market price. But the starting bait price will influence his value perception. > > If anyone is seriously interested in it, I do live in Atlanta - about 75 minutes from Opelika, AL. I could be talked into going down and talking a look/photos of it before you buy. I have a soft spot for IBM Midrange and some deep pockets > > -Alan H. > > >> On 2020-07-07 11:47, Liam Proven via cctech wrote: >>> On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 04:08, STAN IRWIN via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> I recently found an IBM System/36 5360 for sale, with 5251 Terminal and Keyboard. System is supposed to be in good running condition, taken out of service in September 2019, single owner. Asking price seems to be about 10k (!). >>> Anyone interested should go to this link: >>> Vintage 1979 IBM 5251 Beam Spring Mechanical Keyboard 7361073 System 36 34 | Almost Anything >> That is not a link, and I don't know about anyone else, but I had >> never heard of "Almost anything" before. >> The items are in Alabama, in the USA. >> This seems to be the keyboard: >> https://www.almostanythingopelika.com/product-page/vintage-1979-ibm-5251-beam-spring-mechanical-keyboard-7361073-system-36-34 >> -- >> Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com >> Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven >> UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 7 17:57:50 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:57:50 -0600 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <852eb170-8fbc-b89c-09bb-78f2250341b9@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/7/20 10:52 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > People pay what they are willing to pay. It is not like Amazon where > bots watch other bots and raise the prices of rare books in a spiral > anti-bidding-war. There is the nominal market value, and then there's what some questionable person with more money than sense will pay. Such purchases have an adverse effect on the nominal market value. If nothing else, future sellers will see the high sale price and think that they can also get that much for the item. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 7 18:00:48 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 17:00:48 -0600 Subject: IBM System/36 5360 For Sale - Alabama In-Reply-To: <1B4C5D1D-8250-4A94-A50A-C6C1168A2F01@nbi6.com> References: <72745ae006bf3f3e8913c6552a6d3fc5@alanlee.org> <1B4C5D1D-8250-4A94-A50A-C6C1168A2F01@nbi6.com> Message-ID: On 7/7/20 4:55 PM, Joe George via cctalk wrote: > I?m afraid his opening bid will not allow him to come down into the > range of realistic prices, but you know how bad I want this machine. :) Hopefully he won't hold onto it, dig his heals in, and then destroy it if he can't get 90% of his asking price. I don't get how something can go from huge value to zero value in one fell swoop. It's not even if I can't have it, then nobody can have it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 7 18:15:35 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 16:15:35 -0700 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <001a01d654b4$8616b590$924420b0$@net> > I've got a bunch of 18GB SCA drives like this on the other side of the > pond (Toronto) and have been meaning for several years now to set up a > box to test them; did actually test one with an 80<>68 pin adapter and > it worked, but in the meantime seem to have misplaced the system I > used... > > Any interest to make it worth while? Mike, I would be interested but you may not be at my price points ;). For example I bought about a whole lot of drives a couple of weekends ago - all with caddies and with working 10K 18.2gb HDD (some in the new style caddies that expose the SCA connectors and some with the card edge connector) from multiple vendors on eBay. My cost of drives + caddies + shipping ranged from $9 to $12.50 per drive shipped + tax (depending on vendor size/location). I doubt it would be in any way worth it for you to ship a drive from Canada to USA for close to those prices much less from Europe for the OP. I love a good working SCSI drives as much as the next guy but honestly shipping anything out of the local area is fast becoming unacceptably expensive. So unless it is super rare or "I must have it or die" the cost of shipping usually kills the deal even if the item is appropriately priced. -Ali From jpstewart at sympatico.ca Tue Jul 7 21:10:55 2020 From: jpstewart at sympatico.ca (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Tue, 7 Jul 2020 22:10:55 -0400 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0518b2b6-b145-8632-9dd7-0fcd01a242eb@sympatico.ca> On 2020-07-07 12:52 p.m., Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 7 Jul 2020 at 18:14, Alessandro Mazzini via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Flebay is quite overpriced, sadly ( personal opinion anyway, from >> the point of view of someone that's now looking at finding a thing >> since months and is fixated about a real price vs an enflated one > > I often hear comments like this, but I don't really understand them. > > People pay what they are willing to pay. That is true if things are actually selling. But from what I've seen (and why I agree with the earlier comment about ebay often being overpriced) is that sellers list stuff at overly inflated prices and then let it sit there unsold. For a recent real-world example, look at SPARCstation 20s on ebay. A quick glance shows there are at least three listed right now between $800 and $1000 (US Dollars), and they've each been listed for 4-8 months. About a week ago there were two other SS 20s up for auction with $99 USD starting bids. The cosmetically better one went for just over $200 with several bidders. The damaged one sold (just minutes later) for $125 USD with only two bidders. (I was the winning bidder on that one.) Those auctions are probably very good indications of what people are willing to pay. But those other sellers are still asking 4x or 5x that amount in their "buy it now" sales ... unsold for months and seemingly unaware of the auction values of the two that did sell. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jul 8 05:41:20 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 12:41:20 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Jul 06, 2020 at 03:54:10PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: [...] > If I needed one of those drives, I'd be willing to pay $1 / GB plus shipping > and handling if they were known to be good. (If I needed them) I would buy > them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives and said they > passed. As a guideline, PostNL quote ?18.20 (?USD20.50) for its single grade of packet post to "world". The 2kg weight limit is good for two or three typical 3.5" hard disks of around 700g each. It's cheaper to the rest of Europe (and UK) but the 2kg limit remains for anywhere outside the Netherlands. For more than 2kg, you're looking at expensive couriers and the price to the USA quickly rockets. I'm up the road in Zaandam and could collect and test these disks, but I already have more (3) 9GB disks than I need (0) and don't want any more if they don't already have homes allocated. I'm not sure I could face dealing with eBay/Marktplaats/etc timewasters to dispose of them responsibly, even if I were making a nominal ?10 each on them. From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 11:28:37 2020 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 18:28:37 +0200 Subject: Entrex 480 / Digital Computer Controls 116 in New Jersey. Message-ID: I just happen to see this auction: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86804138_entrex-480-vintage-computer-electronics-lot Looks like three systems. One marked Entrex 480 the others look like the DG Nova clone DCC 116. On top there seems to be a Diablo printer of some sort. Some rust, indeed. In New Jersey. Then there another auction for several Diablo drives at the same location: https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86804145_sweda-750-computers-and-vintage-electronics Also a stack of DG like cards and a core memory board, likely DG or DCC. Not in best condition but probably worth rescuing. Maybe someone in NJ area that want it? /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 8 11:32:57 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 09:32:57 -0700 Subject: Entrex 480 / Digital Computer Controls 116 in New Jersey. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <830397f9-91e5-97d5-b76f-446f8e7608c2@bitsavers.org> On 7/8/20 9:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Not in best condition but probably worth rescuing. Maybe someone in NJ area > that want it? Hopefully someone can get those Diablo 30s! From dce at skynet.be Wed Jul 8 12:30:07 2020 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 19:30:07 +0200 Subject: Entrex 480 / Digital Computer Controls 116 in New Jersey. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Oh !!!! Wow, I'm precisely rebooting (well trying to reboot), my DCC-116E, core memory problem, and maybe the diablo 44b is messing around. http://zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/3thboot_01.jpg http://zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/3thboot_02.jpg http://zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/3thboot_03.jpg http://zeltrax.com/classiccmp_forum/3thboot_04.jpg If I was not in another continent, I would rush to this material :-/ Dominique On 8/07/2020 18:28, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I just happen to see this auction: > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86804138_entrex-480-vintage-computer-electronics-lot > > Looks like three systems. One marked Entrex 480 the others look like the DG > Nova clone DCC 116. On top there seems to be a Diablo printer of some sort. > Some rust, indeed. > > In New Jersey. > > Then there another auction for several Diablo drives at the same location: > > https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/86804145_sweda-750-computers-and-vintage-electronics > > Also a stack of DG like cards and a core memory board, likely DG or DCC. > > Not in best condition but probably worth rescuing. Maybe someone in NJ area > that want it? > > /Mattis From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jul 8 13:07:43 2020 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 08 Jul 2020 13:07:43 -0500 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <0518b2b6-b145-8632-9dd7-0fcd01a242eb@sympatico.ca> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> <0518b2b6-b145-8632-9dd7-0fcd01a242eb@sympatico.ca> Message-ID: <5F060B6F.3010801@pico-systems.com> On 07/07/2020 09:10 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > That is true if things are actually selling. But from what I've seen > (and why I agree with the earlier comment about ebay often being > overpriced) is that sellers list stuff at overly inflated prices and > then let it sit there unsold. > > Yes, to know the truth, you have to use advanced search, and select SOLD items only. Then, you can see what items actually sold for what value. LOTS of items have red prices, meaning they did NOT sell, but closed without bids or closed below the reserve price. A green price means it did sell at that price. Jon From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed Jul 8 13:26:23 2020 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 14:26:23 -0400 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <5F060B6F.3010801@pico-systems.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <008c01d65475$a7c34f30$f749ed90$@gmail.com> <0518b2b6-b145-8632-9dd7-0fcd01a242eb@sympatico.ca> <5F060B6F.3010801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: If the auction had the option for best offer and the seller took an offer the listing will show it sold at the listed price and not the actual price. -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 08, 2020 2:07 PM To: John-Paul Stewart ; General at ezwind.net ; Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) On 07/07/2020 09:10 PM, John-Paul Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > That is true if things are actually selling. But from what I've seen > (and why I agree with the earlier comment about ebay often being > overpriced) is that sellers list stuff at overly inflated prices and > then let it sit there unsold. > > Yes, to know the truth, you have to use advanced search, and select SOLD items only. Then, you can see what items actually sold for what value. LOTS of items have red prices, meaning they did NOT sell, but closed without bids or closed below the reserve price. A green price means it did sell at that price. Jon -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From julf at julf.com Wed Jul 8 13:39:43 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:39:43 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <854c9464-fb73-7fdc-b51c-7afc7902a491@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <98da8086-6f7b-9ea5-608f-f2a0fed231ce@julf.com> <854c9464-fb73-7fdc-b51c-7afc7902a491@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <6ab008de-354e-af30-3645-b1eef99efe18@julf.com> On 07-07-2020 22:58, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I might be tempted to scratch an itch and play with the 6000 if I were at a swap meet and could pick it up for a song.? But I'm not a serious shopper for it. Right, and shipping it anywhere will be seriously expensive considering the weight. Julf From julf at julf.com Wed Jul 8 13:41:50 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 20:41:50 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <963ec796-e3fe-97a3-a5b2-914887c558e7@julf.com> On 08-07-2020 12:41, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > As a guideline, PostNL quote ?18.20 (?USD20.50) for its single grade of packet > post to "world". The 2kg weight limit is good for two or three typical 3.5" > hard disks of around 700g each. It's cheaper to the rest of Europe (and UK) but > the 2kg limit remains for anywhere outside the Netherlands. For more than 2kg, > you're looking at expensive couriers and the price to the USA quickly rockets. Good to know! Thanks! > I'm up the road in Zaandam and could collect and test these disks, but I > already have more (3) 9GB disks than I need (0) and don't want any more if they > don't already have homes allocated. I'm not sure I could face dealing with > eBay/Marktplaats/etc timewasters to dispose of them responsibly, even if I were > making a nominal ?10 each on them. Indeed. I too am wondering if i can be bothered. Just don't want to recycle something someone might use/need. Julf From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 8 14:15:32 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 8 Jul 2020 15:15:32 -0400 Subject: Entrex 480 / Digital Computer Controls 116 in New Jersey. In-Reply-To: <830397f9-91e5-97d5-b76f-446f8e7608c2@bitsavers.org> References: <830397f9-91e5-97d5-b76f-446f8e7608c2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I put in a bid, I have a trailer and space... On Wed, Jul 8, 2020 at 1:55 PM Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > On 7/8/20 9:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > > > Not in best condition but probably worth rescuing. Maybe someone in NJ > area > > that want it? > > Hopefully someone can get those Diablo 30s! > > > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jul 9 02:48:57 2020 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 08:48:57 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> Message-ID: <01RN14TNBU5U91W49B@beyondthepale.ie> Johan Helsingius wrote: > On 06-07-2020 23:54, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > /Which/ caddie are they?? Can we see a picture of them?? Both the front > visible from outside of the system and the connector(s). > > Pictures at https://imgur.com/a/iJU6YBH > I have a shoe box full of similar Compaq caddies, blanks and one or two slightly different caddies. I am interested in swapping what I have for SCA disk carrier plates which fit in the slots in the front of my DEC Alphaserver 800. These are a much simpler device consisting of a steel base with a honeycomb of ventilation holes, no top, clear plastic runners on the sides and a flexible clear plastic pull handle at the front. See figure 10-10 on page 240 of: http://vaxhaven.com/images/5/55/EK-ASV80-UG.B01.pdf I don't have any disks to include unless someone wants a couple of failed 18GB examples. (I also have an unidentified 4 slot SCA disk cage which I have no caddies/ carriers for and I have no idea what to look for except that they seem to be slightly larger (wider) than either the Compaq type or the Alphaserver 800 type.) I am in Dublin, Ireland. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Jul 9 06:24:11 2020 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 09 Jul 2020 13:24:11 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <963ec796-e3fe-97a3-a5b2-914887c558e7@julf.com> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> <963ec796-e3fe-97a3-a5b2-914887c558e7@julf.com> Message-ID: ons 2020-07-08 klockan 20:41 +0200 skrev Johan Helsingius via cctalk: > On 08-07-2020 12:41, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > > As a guideline, PostNL quote ?18.20 (?USD20.50) fo > > Indeed. I too am wondering if i can be bothered. Just don't want to > recycle > something someone might use/need. > > Julf > Urs?kta att jag inte har h?rt av mig tidigare. Har du fortfarande kvar n?gra av systemen ? Vikt (tittade pga fr?gan om diskarna p? vad frakten fr?n Nederl?nderna skulle kosta dvs ca 250 SEK) ? From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jul 9 09:05:14 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 16:05:14 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> <963ec796-e3fe-97a3-a5b2-914887c558e7@julf.com> Message-ID: <20200709140514.GA25301@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Jul 09, 2020 at 01:24:11PM +0200, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: [...] > Vikt (tittade pga fr?gan om diskarna p? vad frakten fr?n Nederl?nderna skulle > kosta dvs ca 250 SEK) ? According to Google Translate: "how much to Sweden?" For Sweden specifically, about ?10 or SEK100. For Europe in general, ?10-12 for regular post and another ?2-5 for tracked and/or insured delivery. The latter is advisable given how shambolic international post is right now. From julf at julf.com Thu Jul 9 10:27:24 2020 From: julf at julf.com (Johan Helsingius) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:27:24 +0200 Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> <963ec796-e3fe-97a3-a5b2-914887c558e7@julf.com> Message-ID: (English at end) Hej! > Har du fortfarande kvar n?gra av systemen ? Ja, en Proliant 6000, en DL380, och en tower-typ maskin med 8 diskplatser (skall kolla typen senare), och s?kert 20 caddyn och h?rdskivor. > Vikt (tittade pga fr?gan om diskarna p? vad frakten fr?n Nederl?nderna > skulle kosta dvs ca 250 SEK) ? Kan v?ga skivorna/caddyn i morgon. Maskinerna ?r tunga, speciellt 6000'an. For non-Swedish speakers: Yes, I still have a Proliant 6000, a DL380, and a tower-type machine with 8 disk slots (will check type later), and at least 20 caddies and disks. Will check weight of disks/caddies tomorrow. The computers are heavy, especially the 6000. Julf From macro at linux-mips.org Thu Jul 9 21:16:04 2020 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 03:16:04 +0100 (BST) Subject: About to dump a bunch of Compaq SCSI disk caddies (and disks) In-Reply-To: <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> References: <33f7e0c2-bb42-8b66-b136-0410d8f54770@julf.com> <20200708104119.GA7890@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Wed, 8 Jul 2020, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > If I needed one of those drives, I'd be willing to pay $1 / GB plus shipping > > and handling if they were known to be good. (If I needed them) I would buy > > them sight unseen if you ran SpinRite level 2 on the drives and said they > > passed. > > As a guideline, PostNL quote ?18.20 (?USD20.50) for its single grade of packet > post to "world". The 2kg weight limit is good for two or three typical 3.5" > hard disks of around 700g each. It's cheaper to the rest of Europe (and UK) but > the 2kg limit remains for anywhere outside the Netherlands. For more than 2kg, > you're looking at expensive couriers and the price to the USA quickly rockets. FYI, DHL has interesting flat-rate offers for consumers across at least some European countries, e.g. taking your example of shipping from the Netherlands to the UK the rates are ?10.00/?15.00/?20.00/?26.00 for a chunky parcel of up to 2kg/5kg/10kg/20kg respectively. More details and other destinations at: . For the US destination this does indeed look somewhat less attractive though. Please note DHL operates country-specific sites and offers vary between countries; look for "Document & Parcel Shipping". HTH, Maciej From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 23:39:29 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 21:39:29 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a system restoration, not keyboarding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically significant vintage computer- The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing terminals.*** Subject to what /appears/ to be a batch-related encapsulation failure in the glue on the proprietary hall effect sensors, around a little over half of the switches on the current keyboard are bad. It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily on each switch. Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off-list for more details. Thanks. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Thu Jul 9 23:58:31 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 21:58:31 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a system restoration, not keyboarding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2020-Jul-09, at 9:39 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection > or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. > > I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically > significant vintage computer- > The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- > > *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing > terminals.*** > > Subject to what /appears/ to be a batch-related encapsulation failure in > the glue on the proprietary hall effect sensors, around a little over half > of the switches on the current keyboard are bad. > > It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a > bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). > > I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on > some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily on > each switch. > > Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They > will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off-list for more details. Are these the key-switch model which snap into a thin-gauge springy stainless-steel U-channel to form the rows of the keyboard? From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 00:12:11 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 22:12:11 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a system restoration, not keyboarding) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3E77F03D-9D26-4B0C-8086-EA2ADC1C432B@gmail.com> No, as I understand it that is the predecessor > On Jul 9, 2020, at 21:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > ?On 2020-Jul-09, at 9:39 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > >> I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection >> or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. >> >> I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically >> significant vintage computer- >> The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- >> >> *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing >> terminals.*** >> >> Subject to what /appears/ to be a batch-related encapsulation failure in >> the glue on the proprietary hall effect sensors, around a little over half >> of the switches on the current keyboard are bad. >> >> It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a >> bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). >> >> I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on >> some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily on >> each switch. >> >> Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They >> will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off-list for more details. > > Are these the key-switch model which snap into a thin-gauge springy stainless-steel U-channel to form the rows of the keyboard? From bob at jfcl.com Thu Jul 9 19:02:41 2020 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:02:41 -0700 Subject: RK11-D "diskless" test ZRKJE0??? Message-ID: ? I have an 11/04 with an RK11-D.? I have a couple of RK05s, but I wanted to test the controller before I start working on the drives.? The PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook says that ZRKJ?? "checks only the drive-independent logic of the RK11 controller. no drive is needed..."? I assumed that meant it was a diskless test, but now I'm not sure that's true.? Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does anyone have a listing of ZRKJE0? ? My RK11-D has the BC11 drive cable plugged into the backplane, but the free end of the cable is just lying on the floor.? No drive is connected.? The test fails with ??? RK11 LOGIC TEST I ??? MAINDEC-11-DZRKJ-E ??? REGISTER NOT CLEARED ??? ? PC?? REGADD??? RECVD ??? 002560? 177402? 100000 ?177402 is the RKER register and bit 15 is DRE - "Drive Error". According to the manual this bit is set when the AC power to the drive is lost, which given that I don't have a drive at all, doesn't sound unreasonable.? Continuing ZRKJ?? also gives ??? REGISTER NOT CLEARED ??? ? PC?? REGADD??? RECVD ??? 002560? 177404? 140200 ??? RKCS ERROR ??? ? PC??? WROTE?? READ ??? 002636? 000002? 140202 177404 is the RKCS register and the first two bits are ERROR and HARD ERROR.? These are both set by the DRE bit in RKER and aren't really a surprise. ? I'm starting to wonder if this diagnostic really works w/o a drive attached, or if these errors are expected. Thanks, Bob From nw.johnson at ieee.org Thu Jul 9 19:15:05 2020 From: nw.johnson at ieee.org (Nigel Johnson) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 20:15:05 -0400 Subject: RK11-D "diskless" test ZRKJE0??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The error signal was wire-or'ed through up to four drives, so it must be terminated somewhere - IIRC there was a Unibus terminator in the last drive, but it has been 45 years since I worked on them, the little grey cells are fading _\:-) cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.johnson at ieee.org On 09/07/2020 20:02, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > ? I have an 11/04 with an RK11-D.? I have a couple of RK05s, but I > wanted to test the controller before I start working on the drives.? > The PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook says that ZRKJ?? "checks only the > drive-independent logic of the RK11 controller. no drive is > needed..."? I assumed that meant it was a diskless test, but now I'm > not sure that's true.? Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does anyone > have a listing of ZRKJE0? > > ? My RK11-D has the BC11 drive cable plugged into the backplane, but > the free end of the cable is just lying on the floor.? No drive is > connected.? The test fails with > > ??? RK11 LOGIC TEST I > ??? MAINDEC-11-DZRKJ-E > > ??? REGISTER NOT CLEARED > ??? ? PC?? REGADD??? RECVD > ??? 002560? 177402? 100000 > > ?177402 is the RKER register and bit 15 is DRE - "Drive Error". > According to the manual this bit is set when the AC power to the drive > is lost, which given that I don't have a drive at all, doesn't sound > unreasonable.? Continuing ZRKJ?? also gives > > ??? REGISTER NOT CLEARED > ??? ? PC?? REGADD??? RECVD > ??? 002560? 177404? 140200 > > ??? RKCS ERROR > ??? ? PC??? WROTE?? READ > ??? 002636? 000002? 140202 > > 177404 is the RKCS register and the first two bits are ERROR and HARD > ERROR.? These are both set by the DRE bit in RKER and aren't really a > surprise. > > ? I'm starting to wonder if this diagnostic really works w/o a drive > attached, or if these errors are expected. > > Thanks, > > Bob > From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Jul 9 19:20:54 2020 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 17:20:54 -0700 Subject: RK11-D "diskless" test ZRKJE0??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3D651023-E25B-43BD-BA19-6524F4B539FC@fritzm.org> > On Jul 9, 2020, at 5:02 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > I have an 11/04 with an RK11-D. I have a couple of RK05s, but I wanted to test the controller before I start working on the drives. The PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook says that ZRKJ?? "checks only the drive-independent logic of the RK11 controller. no drive is needed..." I assumed that meant it was a diskless test, but now I'm not sure that's true. Can anyone confirm or deny this? Hi Robert, My experience with an RK11-C on a PDP-11/45 is that the drive-independent diagnostic does in fact work with no drives attached. For the RK11-C at least, it does clever things with maintenance-mode to simulate signaling that would source from the drive where necessary. I know there are some differences between the RK11-C and the RK11-D -- if some of these are related to maintenance mode, it could also be that you need to verify that the version of the diagnostic you are running is RK11-D (and not just RK11-C) aware? Another possibility is that you should pull the BC11 and add another terminator rather than leaving it dangling? --FritzM. From jsw at ieee.org Thu Jul 9 20:29:06 2020 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 20:29:06 -0500 Subject: RK11-D "diskless" test ZRKJE0??? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ae48ace-8b8b-11bb-6e0a-fbad27c78e3a@ieee.org> On 7/9/20 7:02 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > ? I have an 11/04 with an RK11-D.? I have a couple of RK05s, but I > wanted to test the controller before I start working on the drives.? > The PDP11 Diagnostic Handbook says that ZRKJ?? "checks only the > drive-independent logic of the RK11 controller. no drive is > needed..."? I assumed that meant it was a diskless test, but now I'm > not sure that's true.? Can anyone confirm or deny this? Does anyone > have a listing of ZRKJE0? > See http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microfiche/ftp.j-hoppe.de/bw/gh/EP-DZRKJ-E-DL-A__RK11-05F-J__RK11_BASE_LOGIC_TEST_1__MD-11-DZRKJ-E__(C)75-77.pdf > > ? I'm starting to wonder if this diagnostic really works w/o a drive > attached, or if these errors are expected. > Yes.. it only requires the controller.? See the notes in the listing. ?? Jerry From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu Jul 9 23:34:10 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2020 21:34:10 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) Message-ID: I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically significant vintage computer- a and subject to what appears to be a batch-related encapsulation failure on the proprietry hall effect sensors, but could have been some other trauma, around a little over half of them are bad. The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing terminals.** It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily. Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off list for more details. Thanks, - I From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 11:45:28 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:45:28 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> On 7/9/20 9:34 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- > It would be interesting to understand the failure mode. I wonder if they passivated the die correctly? 4B3A is a non-multiplexed contact closure type which is extremely difficult to find. The modules out of any xx3A switch should work. The first two are the part number of the switch body. The switch type is stamped into the left side of the switch module plastic so all you need to do is pop off the keytop to read it. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 11:48:32 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 09:48:32 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> References: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/10/20 9:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > 4B3A is a non-multiplexed contact closure type which is extremely difficult to find. Since it isn't very fancy, I wonder if you could make a new board with a modern Hall effect sensor? You just need a contact closure. From sales at elecplus.com Fri Jul 10 12:42:10 2020 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:42:10 -0500 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007201d656e1$70629eb0$5127dc10$@com> I have a number of keyboards with Micro Switch ST switches, but no SD. Does anyone still use old Memorex or Telex keyboards? -----Original Message----- From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finder via cctech Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 11:34 PM To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically significant vintage computer- a and subject to what appears to be a batch-related encapsulation failure on the proprietry hall effect sensors, but could have been some other trauma, around a little over half of them are bad. The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing terminals.** It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily. Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off list for more details. Thanks, - I -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 12:43:19 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:43:19 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: <007201d656e1$70629eb0$5127dc10$@com> References: <007201d656e1$70629eb0$5127dc10$@com> Message-ID: Thanks Cindy- Unfortunately those won't work :( On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 10:42 AM Electronics Plus wrote: > I have a number of keyboards with Micro Switch ST switches, but no SD. > Does anyone still use old Memorex or Telex keyboards? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > Finder via cctech > Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2020 11:34 PM > To: classiccmp at classiccmp.org > Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not > a keyboard collector!) > > I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection > or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. > > I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically > significant vintage computer- a and subject to what appears to be a > batch-related encapsulation failure on the proprietry hall effect sensors, > but could have been some other trauma, around a little over half of them > are bad. > > The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- > > *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing > terminals.** > > It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a > bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). > > I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on > some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily. > > Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They > will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off list for more details. > > Thanks, > > - I > > > -- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jul 10 12:55:56 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 10:55:56 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a system restoration, not keyboarding) In-Reply-To: <3E77F03D-9D26-4B0C-8086-EA2ADC1C432B@gmail.com> References: <3E77F03D-9D26-4B0C-8086-EA2ADC1C432B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5BCF1D0F-0F59-49D1-B2BC-3F9863DDCCB2@shaw.ca> On 2020-Jul-09, at 10:12 PM, Ian Finder wrote: >> On Jul 9, 2020, at 21:58, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> ?On 2020-Jul-09, at 9:39 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection >>> or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. >>> >>> I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically >>> significant vintage computer- >>> The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- >>> >>> *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing >>> terminals.*** >>> >>> Subject to what /appears/ to be a batch-related encapsulation failure in >>> the glue on the proprietary hall effect sensors, around a little over half >>> of the switches on the current keyboard are bad. >>> >>> It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a >>> bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). >>> >>> I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on >>> some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily on >>> each switch. >>> >>> Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They >>> will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off-list for more details. >> >> Are these the key-switch model which snap into a thin-gauge springy stainless-steel U-channel to form the rows of the keyboard? > No, as I understand it that is the predecessor OK, too bad, in my parts stash I have an orphan (caseless) made-by-Microswitch keyboard from 1975, using the key-switch type as I described. I had a couple of the key-switches open years ago. According to my notes there are two types of key-switch, one for characters (black plunger) and one for modifiers (shift,ctl) (green plunger), the chip IDs (inside the key-switches) are 42B and 40H respectively. From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 13:27:30 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 11:27:30 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Yeah Al, that's a great suggestion. I was looking at the AH1815 last night. The challenge is getting the whole assembly as thin as the original, which presents a not insignificant challenge- Even using the SOT553 package of this: https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/4/4/8/2/a/AH1815.pdf - I'd have to do some trickery, like have it mount into a hole into the center of the board. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:06 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 7/10/20 9:45 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > 4B3A is a non-multiplexed contact closure type which is extremely > difficult to find. > > Since it isn't very fancy, I wonder if you could make a new board with a > modern Hall > effect sensor? You just need a contact closure. > > From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 13:53:19 2020 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 13:53:19 -0500 Subject: VCF Midwest Cancellation Message-ID: We regret to announce... There will be no VCF Midwest this year. The conditions imposed upon us by the CoViD-19 pandemic and related government regulations, as well as a depressed expected turn-out figure, will make it impossible for us to host an event of the size and quality our dedicated fans have come to expect. Thus today we have terminated our 2020 contract with Waterford Banquets and the Clarion Inn hotel. We recommend cancelling your hotel and travel reservations, if you have made them, and we hope that you have not been too greatly inconvenienced by our change of plans. We also wish to express our thanks for the many responses we received to our survey sent back in May. Your feedback was informative, interesting, humorous and most of all, essential in helping us make the right decision about this year's show. The good news is that we have an excellent relationship with our host venue and have already locked in our contract for 2021. Although a long way off, plans will take shape early next year for that show, so please keep an eye out for further announcements of VCFMW 16 (or will it be 15b? We don't know yet!) Also, following the lead of other cancelled festivals, we are considering a Virtual VCFMW to be held on one or more of the dates allocated for this year's show (Sept 12 or 13, 2020). If we think we can pull off something half as entertaining as the real thing, maybe we'll do it. Watch your email for announcements sometime in August. Your humble(d) organizer - - jason If you would like to repost this message in your own forums, feel free to do so by using this link: https://us18.campaign-archive.com/?u=6d177060bd4511e27d05266a5&id=02ddfacc10 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 14:03:01 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:03:01 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: <007201d656e1$70629eb0$5127dc10$@com> References: <007201d656e1$70629eb0$5127dc10$@com> Message-ID: On 7/10/20 10:42 AM, Electronics Plus via cctech wrote: > I have a number of keyboards with Micro Switch ST switches, but no SD. > Does anyone still use old Memorex or Telex keyboards? YES! I have terminals w/o keyboards From wh.sudbrink at verizon.net Fri Jul 10 14:21:11 2020 From: wh.sudbrink at verizon.net (William Sudbrink) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 15:21:11 -0400 Subject: HP 16C Badge (logo) References: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$.ref@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$@verizon.net> This is not exactly vintage computer, but it is very close. A friend just gave me an HP 16C calculator in excellent, working condition, EXCEPT the 16C badge (or logo if you prefer) is missing. I seem to recall that, some years ago, someone on this list knew of a source for replacements but I can't find it in the archive. So, I'll ask, does anyone know where to get a replacement 16C badge? Thanks, Bill S. -- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jul 10 14:29:44 2020 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 12:29:44 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <83B4845F-EB02-482D-9015-458A486C97BA@shaw.ca> On 2020-Jul-10, at 11:27 AM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 11:06 AM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Since it isn't very fancy, I wonder if you could make a new board with a >> modern Hall >> effect sensor? You just need a contact closure. > Yeah Al, that's a great suggestion. I was looking at the AH1815 last night. > The challenge is getting the whole assembly as thin as the original, which > presents a not insignificant challenge- > > Even using the SOT553 package of this: > https://cdn.sparkfun.com/assets/4/4/8/2/a/AH1815.pdf - I'd have to do some > trickery, like have it mount into a hole into the center of the board. Reading that datasheet, it appears that to reduce power consumption those sensors employ pulsed sleep/wake operation, presenting up to a 1/8 second delay in response time. Probably not very good for use in a keyboard, and something to watch out for if looking for a modern replacement sensor. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 15:19:20 2020 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 16:19:20 -0400 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ian, What type of computer is your friend restoring? I can't help as I have a full keyboard that I'd like to keep intact but this is a home made terminal/keyboard made from Diablo 1620 parts including the keyboard and I believe the HyTerm main board. It has SD switches but they are mostly 4B3Bs. These are said to be the same hall effect switches as at least one of the famous Symbolic keyboards so that's likely a dead end. I do have the schematic for this board if it's helpful. Homemade keyboard pics: http://vintagecomputer.ca/vintage-homemade-keyboard/ Schematic: http://vintagecomputer.ca/files/Diablo/Diablo%20HyTERM%20HPR01%20Schematic.pdf On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 1:26 AM Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > I know what you guys are thinking- no, this isn't for a keyboard collection > or some modern build or some other nonsense like that. > > I have a friend who is restoring a fairly interesting and historically > significant vintage computer- a and subject to what appears to be a > batch-related encapsulation failure on the proprietry hall effect sensors, > but could have been some other trauma, around a little over half of them > are bad. > > The correct SD-series replacement switch would be the 4B3A- > > *** These can allegedly be found on some of the Diablo printing > terminals.** > > It is possible other switches ending in ***A could be made to work with a > bit of labor and disassembly (swapping the fairly brittle sensors). > > I am not a keyboard expert but I have learned that you can remove a key on > some of these microswitch keyboards and read the model fairly easily. > > Please let me know if you have a lead on a donor for these switches. They > will be put to good use, and you can reply to me off list for more details. > > Thanks, > > - I > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 16:14:32 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 14:14:32 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > What type of computer is your friend restoring? I don't think he wants to reveal that, and it shouldn't matter anyway. There are a couple of serious researchers out there who do useful work, here is what exists for the SD switch https://deskthority.net/wiki/Micro_Switch_SD_Series From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 10 16:28:59 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 14:28:59 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6d4ee408-f864-e734-f36f-99e2b6ec8706@bitsavers.org> On 7/10/20 2:14 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > There are a couple of serious researchers out there who do useful work, here is what exists for the SD switch > https://deskthority.net/wiki/Micro_Switch_SD_Series > the schematic of the 1660 microswitch keyboard can be found on page 235 of the maint manual http://bitsavers.org/pdf/diablo/printer/400083-01_1660_Maintenance_Jul78.pdf it uses x/y matrix style hall modules the drawing you pointed to uses pulsed output switches neither type will work in his application From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 16:28:57 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 14:28:57 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: <83B4845F-EB02-482D-9015-458A486C97BA@shaw.ca> References: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> <83B4845F-EB02-482D-9015-458A486C97BA@shaw.ca> Message-ID: A few responses- On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: > Reading that datasheet, it appears that to reduce power consumption those > sensors employ pulsed sleep/wake operation, presenting up to a 1/8 second > delay in response time. Probably not very good for use in a keyboard, and > something to watch out for if looking for a modern replacement sensor. > Great catch, Brent. I'll keep looking at other options. I must have skimmed the data sheet a bit too hard. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 01:19 PM Santo Nucifora wrote: > I can't help as I have a full keyboard that I'd like to keep intact but this is a home made... I have many of the keyboards with these 3-pin switches. As mentioned previously, what the sensors need to be electrically is the ***A sensor, which is harder to find by a considerable margin. Sink level, vs sink pulse, vs scan. In Al's words- non-multiplexed contact closure type. http://telcontar.net/KBK/Micro_Switch/SD The machine is a Xerox system. On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 02:01 PM Al Kossow wrote: > It would be interesting to understand the failure mode. > I wonder if they passivated the die correctly I agree. What is interesting to me is this- If I look at other hall effect keyboards, and even other examples of the same sensor: http://telcontar.net/KBK/Micro_Switch/images/SD/Micro_Switch_SD_Hall_sensors.jpg They appear to be encased in a hard, black epoxy of some kind. Some of the other keyboards I have with the same SD switches- but alas the wrong sensor output type- appear to exhibit this as well, and have not failed. My failed sensors have something with the gelatinous consistency and transparency of RTV silicone. It did not appear to have become conductive, but who knows. There were three distinct failure modes: * 1) Output stuck at Vcc (+5v) - By the spec sheet, this should never happen. Vo should be a fraction of a volt when not actuated, dropping to 0v when actuated. * 2) Output stuck at 0v - Self explanatory. * 3) Output appears to be correct-ish Vo, but does not actuate to 0v with magnet. This was the rarest failure. Based on this, my best guess is that there are two failure modes: 1) RTV silicone decomposes over time, leaching something into the die that destroys the IC's passivization layer per Al's comment 2) The RTV silicone (or similar) is not robust enough to shield the delicate sensor die to ceramic substrate connections from vibration and force-based trauma as it decomposes. My expectation is that most of these switches have the black epoxy style of package for a reason- this is the correct design, hopefully should last a long time, and the ones that use this transparent goop will all inevitably die. I have never seen any other semiconductor die encased in what appears to be silicone... This is, incidentally, more about keyboards than I have ever cared to know. The fact that this is an entire hobby for some people is all the more shocking to me. I'd far rather be debugging some logic... Cheers- I From ian.finder at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 16:31:45 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 14:31:45 -0700 Subject: In search of 4B3A Microswitch Keyswitches (for a restoration, not a keyboard collector!) In-Reply-To: References: <4248bbcd-3a49-54a4-173a-1e85451f97b5@bitsavers.org> <83B4845F-EB02-482D-9015-458A486C97BA@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Mistake below, Vo should be a fraction of 5 volts, not "a volt" when operating On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 2:28 PM Ian Finder wrote: > A few responses- > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 12:29 PM Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> Reading that datasheet, it appears that to reduce power consumption those >> sensors employ pulsed sleep/wake operation, presenting up to a 1/8 second >> delay in response time. Probably not very good for use in a keyboard, and >> something to watch out for if looking for a modern replacement sensor. >> > > Great catch, Brent. I'll keep looking at other options. I must have > skimmed the data sheet a bit too hard. > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 01:19 PM Santo Nucifora wrote: > > I can't help as I have a full keyboard that I'd like to keep intact but > this is a home made... > > I have many of the keyboards with these 3-pin switches. As mentioned > previously, what the sensors need to be electrically is the ***A sensor, > which is harder to find by a considerable margin. Sink level, vs sink > pulse, vs scan. In Al's words- non-multiplexed contact closure type. > > http://telcontar.net/KBK/Micro_Switch/SD > > The machine is a Xerox system. > > On Fri, Jul 10, 2020 at 02:01 PM Al Kossow wrote: > > It would be interesting to understand the failure mode. > > I wonder if they passivated the die correctly > > I agree. What is interesting to me is this- If I look at other hall effect > keyboards, and even other examples of the same sensor: > http://telcontar.net/KBK/Micro_Switch/images/SD/Micro_Switch_SD_Hall_sensors.jpg > > They appear to be encased in a hard, black epoxy of some kind. Some of the > other keyboards I have with the same SD switches- but alas the wrong sensor > output type- appear to exhibit this as well, and have not failed. > > My failed sensors have something with the gelatinous consistency and > transparency of RTV silicone. It did not appear to have become conductive, > but who knows. There were three distinct failure modes: > > * 1) Output stuck at Vcc (+5v) - By the spec sheet, this should never > happen. Vo should be a fraction of a volt when not actuated, dropping to 0v > when actuated. > > * 2) Output stuck at 0v - Self explanatory. > > * 3) Output appears to be correct-ish Vo, but does not actuate to 0v with > magnet. This was the rarest failure. > > Based on this, my best guess is that there are two failure modes: > > 1) RTV silicone decomposes over time, leaching something into the die that > destroys the IC's passivization layer per Al's comment > > 2) The RTV silicone (or similar) is not robust enough to shield the > delicate sensor die to ceramic substrate connections from vibration and > force-based trauma as it decomposes. > > My expectation is that most of these switches have the black epoxy style > of package for a reason- this is the correct design, hopefully should last > a long time, and the ones that use this transparent goop will all > inevitably die. > > I have never seen any other semiconductor die encased in what appears to > be silicone... > > This is, incidentally, more about keyboards than I have ever cared to > know. The fact that this is an entire hobby for some people is all the more > shocking to me. I'd far rather be debugging some logic... > > > Cheers- I > > > > > > From mokuba at gmail.com Fri Jul 10 18:00:51 2020 From: mokuba at gmail.com (Gary Sparkes) Date: Fri, 10 Jul 2020 19:00:51 -0400 Subject: Looking for BAD / Faulty core memory for a display piece Message-ID: Unrepairable preferred It'll be going into an epoxy resin setup that someone I know is doing for a table, and I really want to get something that still LOOKS OK but is... well, just faulty and won't be restorable to service so we don't destroy any potentially usable hardware. Ideas/suggestions welcome! -- Gary G. Sparkes Jr. KB3HAG From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Jul 11 07:14:17 2020 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 15:14:17 +0300 Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 Message-ID: Any clue who won this auction: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/cray-research-unicos-operating-system-1800638160 ? From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 11 12:47:35 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 11:47:35 -0600 Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/11/20 6:14 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > Any clue who won this auction? No. But I bet there are some people that would be interested in it. jpkiwigeek on YouTube comes to mind. Now that I think about him, I've not seen any new videos in a while. I hope that he's okay. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 11 12:51:24 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 13:51:24 -0400 Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 In-Reply-To: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: LSSM? On Sat, Jul 11, 2020 at 1:47 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/11/20 6:14 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: > > Any clue who won this auction? > > No. > > But I bet there are some people that would be interested in it. > > jpkiwigeek on YouTube comes to mind. Now that I think about him, I've > not seen any new videos in a while. I hope that he's okay. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From ethan at 757.org Sat Jul 11 14:17:06 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 15:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 In-Reply-To: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > But I bet there are some people that would be interested in it. > jpkiwigeek on YouTube comes to mind. Now that I think about him, I've not > seen any new videos in a while. I hope that he's okay. I have Unicos 10.0.0.1 and 10.0.0.2 but when I boot it I get a kernel panic. Seems to be around drivers for ATM. My system has a lot of HIPPI interfaces, no ATM. Am also interested in finding other copies of J90 Unicos. There are several models of the CPU boards, no idea how cross compatible the software builds are for them - Ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 11 15:42:03 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 13:42:03 -0700 Subject: HP 16C Badge (logo) In-Reply-To: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$@verizon.net> References: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$.ref@verizon.net> <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$@verizon.net> Message-ID: <92676c62-7cfa-230c-d2b7-d3459db4238b@sydex.com> On 7/10/20 12:21 PM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > This is not exactly vintage computer, but it is very close. A friend just > gave me an HP 16C calculator in excellent, working condition, EXCEPT the 16C > badge (or logo if you prefer) is missing. I seem to recall that, some years > ago, someone on this list knew of a source for replacements but I can't find > it in the archive. So, I'll ask, does anyone know where to get a > replacement 16C badge? Pry the badge off of a cheap 15C and squint. :) --Chuck From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 12:55:07 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 13:55:07 -0400 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements Message-ID: Two questions, 1. If anyone is using these devices, which firmware/software do you use in the device and why did you choose it? 2/ Is anyone specifically using one as a replacement or adjunct or and RX50 et al on a Pro, pdp11, uVax, DecMate, or Pro box, and same question set as 1? Yes, i picked up one, and looking at the capabilities, documentation first, and considering reflashing the beast to give more control of formats. TIA bob smith From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 12 13:06:09 2020 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 11:06:09 -0700 Subject: mid-80's DECUS newsletters and proceedings Message-ID: I've started to scan a box of them that I've had sitting around since the 00's http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decus/confProceedings/ I just uploaded the first one (Spring 1985) From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Jul 12 13:07:04 2020 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 14:07:04 -0400 Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 11 Jul 2020 15:17:06 -0400 (EDT) > From: Ethan O'Toole > Subject: Re: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 > > I have Unicos 10.0.0.1 and 10.0.0.2 but when I boot it I get a kernel > panic. Seems to be around drivers for ATM. My system has a lot of HIPPI > interfaces, no ATM. > > Am also interested in finding other copies of J90 Unicos. > > - Ethan > The RICM has 8.0.2.2A and 8.0.3.3 on DAT. -- Michael Thompson From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 12 13:39:10 2020 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 12 Jul 2020 12:39:10 -0600 Subject: mid-80's DECUS newsletters and proceedings In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 12, 2020, 12:06 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I've started to scan a box of them that I've had sitting around since the > 00's > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decus/confProceedings/ > > I just uploaded the first one (Spring 1985) > You rock. Warner > From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 05:14:53 2020 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:14:53 +0200 Subject: HP 16C Badge (logo) In-Reply-To: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$@verizon.net> References: <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$.ref@verizon.net> <005701d656ef$45c1ce70$d1456b50$@verizon.net> Message-ID: > On 10 Jul 2020, at 21:21 , William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote: > > This is not exactly vintage computer, but it is very close. A friend just > gave me an HP 16C calculator in excellent, working condition, EXCEPT the 16C > badge (or logo if you prefer) is missing. I seem to recall that, some years > ago, someone on this list knew of a source for replacements but I can't find > it in the archive. So, I'll ask, does anyone know where to get a > replacement 16C badge? > There was an announcement on hpmuseum.org some time back: https://www.hpmuseum.org/forum/thread-13014.html From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 07:22:15 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 07:22:15 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? Message-ID: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> I'm trying to find source files for the very first, original, ver 1.00(?) small C compiler. I have the DDJ issue with the printed source (minus the assembly language runtime libs.) I have found all sorts of derivative works, but I haven't found files of the original version. My old eyes aren't up to typing in 13 pages of scanned copy of printed dot matrix listings. Does anyone know where a downloadable copy of these files can be found? Or have a copy they could send? Thanks, Will "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 10:57:47 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 08:57:47 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> On 7/13/20 5:22 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > I'm trying to find source files for the very first, original, ver 1.00(?) small C compiler. I have the DDJ issue with the printed source (minus the assembly language runtime libs.) I have found all sorts of derivative works, but I haven't found files of the original version. My old eyes aren't up to typing in 13 pages of scanned copy of printed dot matrix listings. > > Does anyone know where a downloadable copy of these files can be found? Or have a copy they could send? > > Thanks, > Will > > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org > Isn't it on the DDJ Resource CD? http://twimgs.com/ddj/sdmediagroup/images/sdm1123195158574/ddj_devnetwork_small_c.zip --Chuck From jacksonharrington22 at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 11:18:30 2020 From: jacksonharrington22 at gmail.com (jackson22) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:18:30 -0400 Subject: Lear Siegler ADM-2? Message-ID: Hi everyone, I?m currently looking for a Lear Siegler ADM-2 terminal to purchase from someone for use in a future short film I?m creating. Afterwards I?d house it in my personal museum. If anyone has one or you know someone who owns one and could be interested in selling, let me know. I?d pay very well. I could also do a trade, I have quite a few rare terminals in my own collection. I?m familiar with old computers and know how to work around them, it could be in any condition. It would be in good hands. You can also Email me at jacksonharrington22 at gmail.com Thanks. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 13:18:57 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:18:57 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? Message-ID: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Anyone on list repair or rehab Tandon TM848 drives?? I have a 4 or so of the slimline drives from some Tandy Model 12/16b units that don't seem to spin at all, and I've hooked them up to the same PSU that a TM848E successfully runs on, so I am guessing it's not a PSU issue. (Though, my understanding of 8" drives is extremely minimal, so...) If I could get just 2 of them working, that'd put a few 12/16b units back in operation. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 14:00:17 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:00:17 -0400 Subject: TM848 repair? References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jim Brain via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 2:18 PM Subject: TM848 repair? > Anyone on list repair or rehab Tandon TM848 drives? I have a 4 or so of > the slimline drives from some Tandy Model 12/16b units that don't seem > to spin at all, and I've hooked them up to the same PSU that a TM848E > successfully runs on, so I am guessing it's not a PSU issue. (Though, my > understanding of 8" drives is extremely minimal, so...) > > If I could get just 2 of them working, that'd put a few 12/16b units > back in operation. > > Jim > > -- > Jim Brain > brain at jbrain.com > www.jbrain.com > From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 14:02:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:02:56 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <548ed277-3d62-7fca-d3ba-0ece54f1d77c@sydex.com> On 7/13/20 11:18 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > Anyone on list repair or rehab Tandon TM848 drives?? I have a 4 or so of > the slimline drives from some Tandy Model 12/16b units that don't seem > to spin at all, and I've hooked them up to the same PSU that a TM848E > successfully runs on, so I am guessing it's not a PSU issue. (Though, my > understanding of 8" drives is extremely minimal, so...) > > If I could get just 2 of them working, that'd put a few 12/16b units > back in operation. The Tandon 848 is not one of my favorite drives. There is an option not to pass the Motor On/ signal unless a disk is loaded and the drive door is closed. Check U16 pin 8, which should be high for MOTOR ON. It seems more like an oversight that all 4 drives don't spin. Be aware that the 848's motor controls are different from 5.25", where one line controls all motors. The 848 uses pins 4,6,8 and 24 on the interface to control the motor--each drive has a jumper that dictates which line will be used. (MC 1-4). --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 14:11:37 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:11:37 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 12:00 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? > > Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... Second that! I've had to replace more than one regulator on 848s; also the 100 ohm resistor (R1) and electrolytic capacitor(C6) on the input side of the regulator. --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 14:18:50 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:18:50 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> On 7/13/2020 2:00 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? > > Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... As for a manual, I have this: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/SCSSTreasuresCatalog/hardware/TCD-SCSS-T.20141115.002/Tandon-TM848-Specification-and-Schematic.pdf I don't see the VR section in that, though. From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 14:21:24 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:21:24 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <548ed277-3d62-7fca-d3ba-0ece54f1d77c@sydex.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <548ed277-3d62-7fca-d3ba-0ece54f1d77c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0f56b78e-10a4-5fd1-096a-b6c914471794@jbrain.com> On 7/13/2020 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/20 11:18 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> The Tandon 848 is not one of my favorite drives. There is an option not >> to pass the Motor On/ signal unless a disk is loaded and the drive door >> is closed. Check U16 pin 8, which should be high for MOTOR ON. I will do so. >> >> It seems more like an oversight that all 4 drives don't spin. Be aware >> that the 848's motor controls are different from 5.25", where one line >> controls all motors. The 848 uses pins 4,6,8 and 24 on the interface to >> control the motor--each drive has a jumper that dictates which line will >> be used. (MC 1-4). Yep, one of the drives was set to DS2, so I moved it back to DS1 so I could test as a primary drive.? I agree the drives would be different from 5.25" ones, but I connected them to the same PSU that runs my TM848E successfully.? It seems strange that a working PSU that drives a TM848E would not supply enough or the right voltage for a TM848-02. Jim From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 14:29:23 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:29:23 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 12:18 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/2020 2:00 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >> Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? >> >> Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... > > As for a manual, I have this: > > https://www.scss.tcd.ie/SCSSTreasuresCatalog/hardware/TCD-SCSS-T.20141115.002/Tandon-TM848-Specification-and-Schematic.pdf > > > I don't see the VR section in that, though. If it's the same document that I have, PDF page 18, second-to-last page of schematics, near the bottom, near the legend "DC POWER CONNECTOR" --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 12:07:03 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:07:03 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> > On July 13, 2020 at 10:57 AM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > On 7/13/20 5:22 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote:> I'm trying to find source files for the very first, original, ver 1.00(?) small C compiler. I have the DDJ issue with the printed source (minus the assembly language runtime libs.) I have found all sorts of derivative works, but I haven't found files of the original version. My old eyes aren't up to typing in 13 pages of scanned copy of printed dot matrix listings. > > Does anyone know where a downloadable copy of these files can be found? Or have a copy they could send? > > Thanks,Will > > "A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away." -- Antoine de Saint-Exupery > > > > "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.orgIsn't it on the DDJ Resource CD? > http://twimgs.com/ddj/sdmediagroup/images/sdm1123195158574/ddj_devnetwork_small_c.zip > --Chuck Unfortunately, no. That was one of the first places I looked. They have the 2.1 version from the Small C handbook (James Hendrix) and some other derivatives, but not the original 8080 version 1.0. Thanks, Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 13:17:56 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:17:56 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> On 7/13/20 10:07 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > Unfortunately, no. That was one of the first places I looked. They have the 2.1 version from the Small C handbook (James Hendrix) and some other derivatives, but not the original 8080 version 1.0. > > Thanks, > Will SIMTEL20 claims to have 1.1, but I don't know how it differs. --Chuck From phil at ultimate.com Mon Jul 13 13:30:37 2020 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:30:37 -0400 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> I can't make ANY assertions about version or pedigree of the files (which came to me in 1981 when I was using a PDP-10), but they APPEAR to be from Ron Cain himself, from SRI-KL (TOPS-20): ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/c80.tar.gz Which contains runtime files from November 1979, and compiler files dated June 1981. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 13:52:04 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 11:52:04 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <76e7321b-2f79-0337-4a07-cb4f10ebd53c@sydex.com> All I've been able to find is the source for 1.1 on github, which was laboriously reconstructed from an OCR of the original article. --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 13:59:38 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 13:59:38 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> > On July 13, 2020 at 1:17 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > On 7/13/20 10:07 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > > Unfortunately, no. That was one of the first places I looked. They have the 2.1 version from the Small C handbook (James Hendrix) and some other derivatives, but not the original 8080 version 1.0. > > Thanks,WillSIMTEL20 claims to have 1.1, but I don't know how it differs. > --Chuck Hi Chuck, Thanks. I found the one(s) on Simtel and they weren't the right ones. I "think" the 1.1 that is on there is for the IBM PC (8088) or maybe the Z-80. In any case, I think it's been found. Thanks for helping. Will From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 14:06:54 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:06:54 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> > On July 13, 2020 at 1:30 PM Phil Budne wrote: > > I can't make ANY assertions about version or pedigree of the files(which came to me in 1981 when I was using a PDP-10), but they APPEARto be from Ron Cain himself, from SRI-KL (TOPS-20): > ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/c80.tar.gz > Which contains runtime files from November 1979, and compiler filesdated June 1981. Hi Phil, Thanks! That sure looks like the right one. It is 8080 code, the comments and docs mostly match what is published from a quick look. I will look into it more when I am home and have some time. But I do believe that is the "original" as published in DDJ. Notes and justification I started looking for this mainly because I wanted to play with it. I want to actually use it to write some code and see how hard it is to write usable code with the limited subset of the earliest released version. But when I started looking I was shocked that I couldn't find the original. There are dozens, at least, of derivatives in various versions. Z80, 8088, 6502!, TI 9900 I think and more. Floating point, structs, optimizers, etc. I personally think this was a VERY important piece of software. I think the number of derivatives speaks volumes of how important it was. But I couldn't find the original. I feel it should be preserved. Even the DDJ Small C CD ROM didn't have it! (They only used 34Megs of the Disk so they had plenty of room.) Anyway, it looks like Phil found it. I appreciate all the efforts getting it. Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for safekeeping? I plan on putting it on my web site, but that is far from an archival solution. Thanks, Will From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 14:13:49 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 12:13:49 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 11:59 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > Thanks. I found the one(s) on Simtel and they weren't the right ones. I "think" the 1.1 that is on there is for the IBM PC (8088) or maybe the Z-80. In any case, I think it's been found. > The github one: https://github.com/trcwm/smallc_v1 is the 8080 version, 1.1 and claims to be a transcription from the original DDJ article. --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 14:20:05 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:20:05 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1719019304.95099.1594668005717@email.ionos.com> > On July 13, 2020 at 2:13 PM Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > > On 7/13/20 11:59 AM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > > Thanks. I found the one(s) on Simtel and they weren't the right ones. I "think" the 1.1 that is on there is for the IBM PC (8088) or maybe the Z-80. In any case, I think it's been found.The github one: > https://github.com/trcwm/smallc_v1 > is the 8080 version, 1.1 and claims to be a transcription from theoriginal DDJ article. > --Chuck Thanks, Chuck, It's interesting I didn't find that one. There are various others on Github but I didn't see that one. I will do a file comparison between that one and the one Phil provided. Thanks, Will From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 13 15:38:10 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 14:38:10 -0600 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <1719019304.95099.1594668005717@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> <1719019304.95099.1594668005717@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <57da5cff-4674-51bb-db6a-010a665f2099@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/13/2020 1:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > It's interesting I didn't find that one. There are various others on Github but I didn't > see that one. I will do a file comparison between that one and the one Phil provided. > > Thanks, > Will > I have modified copy for the IBM PC, by CAPROCK SYSTEMS, but ALAS can't find the orginal source. Anything after 1.1 8080 has the switch statement and the weird P-code? Ben. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Jul 13 15:52:32 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:52:32 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <57da5cff-4674-51bb-db6a-010a665f2099@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <6d9c37ee-81e8-365f-5feb-846a818419c9@sydex.com> <465746904.88678.1594660023986@email.ionos.com> <6962f7c5-bc37-a3d2-fa61-4315b74982b6@sydex.com> <1393811962.94255.1594666778758@email.ionos.com> <1719019304.95099.1594668005717@email.ionos.com> <57da5cff-4674-51bb-db6a-010a665f2099@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1023124318.98848.1594673553001@email.ionos.com> > On July 13, 2020 at 3:38 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/13/2020 1:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:> It's interesting I didn't find that one. There are various others on Github but I didn't > see that one. I will do a file comparison between that one and the one Phil provided. > > Thanks,WillI have modified copy for the IBM PC, by CAPROCK SYSTEMS,but ALAS can't find the orginal source.Anything after 1.1 8080 has the switch statement and the weird P-code?Ben. Hi Ben, I'm pretty sure I have the source now for the one published in DDJ. I've got two sources to compare. (Someone sent me the CAPROCK SYSTEMS one off list) It appears that there is no coordination of version numbers after 1.0 up to 2.1. It seems there are completely different versions/modifications with the same version number (e.g. 1.1). Various versions in the 1.x line have all sorts of mods. Many of them are native code, but may be for 8080, 8086, Z80, 6502, or various others. Not sure when or where the p-code came in. 2.1 was the updated "official" version published by James Hendrix in "The Small C Handbook" as well as in DDJ, I believe. After 2.1 it diverges again, I think. Ver 2.1 has the for, switch, etc stuff added and appears to be the most common. All this is from my digging and I'm certainly not an expert. Thanks for helping, Will From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 15:57:14 2020 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:57:14 -0400 Subject: TM848 repair? References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <69202EAB18804E7AB0FDA4B0A332675A@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "Jim Brain via cctalk" Sent: Monday, July 13, 2020 3:29 PM Subject: Re: TM848 repair? > On 7/13/20 12:18 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/13/2020 2:00 PM, Mike Stein wrote: >>> Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? >>> >>> Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... >> >> As for a manual, I have this: >> >> https://www.scss.tcd.ie/SCSSTreasuresCatalog/hardware/TCD-SCSS-T.20141115.002/Tandon-TM848-Specification-and-Schematic.pdf >> >> >> I don't see the VR section in that, though. > > If it's the same document that I have, PDF page 18, second-to-last page > of schematics, near the bottom, near the legend "DC POWER CONNECTOR" > > --Chuck ---------------------------- Which document is that? I find it on PDF page 85 of the OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-848-1 and TM-848-2 Disk Drives, Sheet 4 of 5. m From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 16:01:01 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:01:01 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <43298968-86b3-4f20-dc01-b1beeff2fa55@jbrain.com> On 7/13/2020 2:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If it's the same document that I have, PDF page 18, second-to-last page > of schematics, near the bottom, near the legend "DC POWER CONNECTOR" > > --Chuck Eyesight is failing. I had the same doc. -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 16:05:23 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:05:23 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <4b287cc0-f52f-3eb4-55ba-637db044410f@jbrain.com> On 7/13/2020 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/20 12:00 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? >> >> Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... > Second that! I've had to replace more than one regulator on 848s; also > the 100 ohm resistor (R1) and electrolytic capacitor(C6) on the input > side of the regulator. > > --Chuck Thanks for the tip.? On one, the 10ohm (yep, 10) is cooked, so I need to get another one.? Looks like 1/2W, but anyone know for sure?? The schematic just notes the resistance and identifier.? It could be 1W... The other 1 I have on the bench looks to have a good resistor, but I will check the VR next. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 16:06:28 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:06:28 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <69202EAB18804E7AB0FDA4B0A332675A@310e2> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4bcac11a-495a-7aac-6b63-783f6fd5040d@jbrain.com> <69202EAB18804E7AB0FDA4B0A332675A@310e2> Message-ID: On 7/13/2020 3:57 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > >>> As for a manual, I have this: >>> >>> https://www.scss.tcd.ie/SCSSTreasuresCatalog/hardware/TCD-SCSS-T.20141115.002/Tandon-TM848-Specification-and-Schematic.pdf >>> >>> >>> I don't see the VR section in that, though. >> If it's the same document that I have, PDF page 18, second-to-last page >> of schematics, near the bottom, near the legend "DC POWER CONNECTOR" >> >> --Chuck > ---------------------------- > > Which document is that? I find it on PDF page 85 of the OEM Operating and Service Manual TM-848-1 and TM-848-2 Disk Drives, Sheet 4 of 5. It's the first one I linked (above).? It looks to be an older manual.? I agree the one you linked has more information, so I grabbed both. Jim From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jul 13 17:12:34 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:12:34 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 Message-ID: Anyone know the best way to get files off an AT&T 7300/3B1 computer? This one has a lot of Perq stuff in a directory as well as hilarious things you can do with RP06 disk platters (ah, when we were young...) It does have an AUI Ethernet port on the back, but doesn't appear to have TCP/IP installed. Maybe I can install TCP and find my old Synoptics 10bt to AUI adapter? CZ From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 17:23:10 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 17:23:10 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <90c6cddd-e096-e51e-c63b-55e1b8202c6a@jbrain.com> On 7/13/2020 2:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/20 12:00 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> Shouldn't be too difficult to troubleshoot; have you got the manual? >> >> Start by checking the 24V > 12V regulator... > Second that! I've had to replace more than one regulator on 848s; also > the 100 ohm resistor (R1) and electrolytic capacitor(C6) on the input > side of the regulator. > > --Chuck You, my good man, need some funds.? I will send funds so you can grab a beer or something! The one unit has a bad resistor (need to order), while the other has a shorted C6 (temp replaced with a radial cap while I order one of those.? That one boots now. I was dreading trying to debug these things, and no doubt they won't all be this easy, but some early success foes wonders for confidence to continue.? Thanks for the help! Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 17:23:50 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 15:23:50 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <4b287cc0-f52f-3eb4-55ba-637db044410f@jbrain.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4b287cc0-f52f-3eb4-55ba-637db044410f@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 2:05 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: --Chuck > > Thanks for the tip.? On one, the 10ohm (yep, 10) is cooked, so I need to > get another one.? Looks like 1/2W, but anyone know for sure?? The > schematic just notes the resistance and identifier.? It could be 1W... Given the power consumption (up to 1.2A) on the 24V line, I'd play it safe and go with 2W. --Chuck From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 13 17:25:25 2020 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:25:25 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/13/20 6:12 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know the best way to get files off an AT&T 7300/3B1 computer? > This one has a lot of Perq stuff in a directory as well as hilarious > things you can do with RP06 disk platters (ah, when we were young...) > > It does have an AUI Ethernet port on the back, but doesn't appear to > have TCP/IP installed. Maybe I can install TCP and find my old Synoptics > 10bt to AUI adapter? > Didn't it have one serial port? Kermit" bill From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 18:10:19 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 16:10:19 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <90c6cddd-e096-e51e-c63b-55e1b8202c6a@jbrain.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <90c6cddd-e096-e51e-c63b-55e1b8202c6a@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <6ac4f32b-39f2-ab92-b6de-045c6352b15b@sydex.com> On 7/13/20 3:23 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > You, my good man, need some funds.? I will send funds so you can grab a > beer or something! > > The one unit has a bad resistor (need to order), while the other has a > shorted C6 (temp replaced with a radial cap while I order one of those.? > That one boots now. > > I was dreading trying to debug these things, and no doubt they won't all > be this easy, but some early success foes wonders for confidence to > continue.? Thanks for the help! Don't mention it--happy to help out! --Chuck From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 18:58:17 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:58:17 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4b287cc0-f52f-3eb4-55ba-637db044410f@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/2020 5:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/20 2:05 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > --Chuck >> Thanks for the tip.? On one, the 10ohm (yep, 10) is cooked, so I need to >> get another one.? Looks like 1/2W, but anyone know for sure?? The >> schematic just notes the resistance and identifier.? It could be 1W... > Given the power consumption (up to 1.2A) on the 24V line, I'd play it > safe and go with 2W. > > --Chuck > I also am at a loss on the 4u7 cap.? The one I am replacing is a black unit with a tapered + end, but I am not finding exact duplicate. Will this work: https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/nte-electronics-inc/NEH4-7M50AA/2368-NEH4-7M50AA-ND/11644580 -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From brain at jbrain.com Mon Jul 13 19:09:12 2020 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 19:09:12 -0500 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: <6ac4f32b-39f2-ab92-b6de-045c6352b15b@sydex.com> References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <90c6cddd-e096-e51e-c63b-55e1b8202c6a@jbrain.com> <6ac4f32b-39f2-ab92-b6de-045c6352b15b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/2020 6:10 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Don't mention it--happy to help out! I am especially impressed, for a few reasons.? Backstory: * I snagged 2 Model 12s at a CoCoFEST! a number of years ago during the show auction.? NO KBs * I then spent too much I am sure buying extra boards from a chap outside Atlanta who seemed to have sold these units for years. * Peter Cetenski was gracious enough to get me a few bootable floppies to try. * Then, when picking up the Atlanta parts in Chicago (they came via someone's back seat, I by plane), Jason Timmons loaded me up with more Model II stuff (external drive, front bezels, and a few Model IIs, including a batch of KBs. * Finally, at Tandy Assembly 2018, I picked up 2 external HDDs for not much coin) * But, I have been sitting on all this collection in unusable form since then.? It's taking up valuable space and I know I don't need it all, so I really need to get the units working I want, and then move the rest to a new home. * Still, all of the units collectively seemed a daunting task, especially in light of my not knowing anything about the platform. I don't even know how to list a dir in TS-DOS 2.0a (or whatever it is called).? LS-DOS uses dir, so there's that. Of the 4 units, 1 requires a new resistor (well, at least 1 new resistor), 2 were bad caps (now booting), and 1 has a good mech (swapped logic board with another one), but the logic board has another issue.? Resistor is good, cap is good, and VR is outputting 11.9VDC.? The stepper moves when booted, and the drive motor also looks to be running well.? I can see the LED showing the index pulses, but not sure where I should start (I have it sitting in a working mech, so I know all mech is at least marginally OK (was booting from the mech with another logic board). Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From ethan at 757.org Mon Jul 13 19:30:57 2020 From: ethan at 757.org (Ethan O'Toole) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 20:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Sun E250, NVRAM edit? (Serial Speeds, no console, etc) Message-ID: Hello, I have an E250 Sun that belonged to a friend that passed away around 2008. It was colocated at a colocation office I had running in Virginia Beach. I pulled it out of storage, and would like to check if his public website is archived on it. Archive.org only has bits of it. Odds are low since it wasn't the main server, but worth a shot. I tried the usual Serial port A, but all I get is garbage. Tried all the common baud rates I could think of. If it's switched to diag mode, the diag stuff comes across in 9600bps. I tried the RSC port, it wants a password. Don't know it, didn't see anywhere online on how to reset it. I tried hooking up a console. Finally get the power brick in for the Samsung 770TFT LCD monitor I've held onto (it has 13w3.) At first it wasn't working. Tried both Type 5 and type 6 keyboards attached. No console. I found by removing the NVRAM, it will finally throw console. But no keyboard input. Stop-A, nothing. If I shove the NVRAM back in while it's running it immediatley goes black. Anyone know if the NVRAM strings are stored in plaintext in the NVRAM IC? If I were to dig out all the hardware that should be able to dump that chip is it something that is human readable / editable? I've done the coin cell hack on them before, but from memory the keyboard worked and it wasn't a big deal to do program in replacement MAC. But this is different, I need options removed. I'm thinking this thing has values in the NVRAM that are turning off the console and doing something funky to the serial baud rate. Or perhaps the baud rate in Solaris is set to something funky. - Ethan From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 13 20:01:22 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:01:22 -0700 Subject: TM848 repair? In-Reply-To: References: <763f2b33-31ea-e558-f72a-c4e7fd02bae8@jbrain.com> <4b287cc0-f52f-3eb4-55ba-637db044410f@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 4:58 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/2020 5:23 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 7/13/20 2:05 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: >> ? --Chuck >>> Thanks for the tip.? On one, the 10ohm (yep, 10) is cooked, so I need to >>> get another one.? Looks like 1/2W, but anyone know for sure?? The >>> schematic just notes the resistance and identifier.? It could be 1W... >> Given the power consumption (up to 1.2A) on the 24V line, I'd play it >> safe and go with 2W. >> >> --Chuck >> > I also am at a loss on the 4u7 cap.? The one I am replacing is a black > unit with a tapered + end, but I am not finding exact duplicate. > > Will this work: > > https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/nte-electronics-inc/NEH4-7M50AA/2368-NEH4-7M50AA-ND/11644580 Yes, that will work, but so will almost any garden-variety electrolytic rated at 35-50WVDC. The cap doesn't handle any AC--it's there mostly to keep the voltage regulator from oscillating. --Chuck From dave.dunfield at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:05:57 2020 From: dave.dunfield at gmail.com (Dave Dunfield) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 23:05:57 -0400 Subject: A tool many of you may make find useful! Message-ID: Continuing to let you all know about developments, I do expect that many of you are facing a similar problem - trying to condense and preserve a lifetime of "collecting digital stuff". The DFF utility has been very helpful, however once I started organizing my files, I realized that although there are a lot of duplication, much of it is was downloaded at different times and/or from different sites making much of it different, many vendors don't go out of their way to make file content/purpose obvious in the names, and many files are dependent on other files - so manually reorganizing the data is NOT always easy. The best solution I have come up with so far is to invent a new archive format designed to eliminate duplicate data but capable of recreating the entire original directory trees (or parts thereof). To that end I created the two utilities described below (now included in the web archive). -- yeah, I do seem to have a fair bit of spare time on my hands these days... ;=BDA - Build Dave's Archive ;=EDA - Extract Dave's Archive Dave's Archives contain the smallest possible representation of a complete directory tree: - Only one copy of the data for duplicate files is stored. - Duplicate filenames are stored only once. - Path information is stored only once per directory, and only additions to a path are stored (adding/removing from last path). eg: Starting with a large DIR of support files for one of my systems. This has duplicates and a lot of pre-compressed install files: 314 dirs, 930 files using 3,762,691,033 bytes. Just "ZIP"ing it I get: SysSupt.zip 3,352,081,951 bytes 7zip does a bit better: SysSupt.7z 3,245,871,362 bytes Running BDA, I get: SysSupt.DA1 9,404 bytes and SysSupt.DA2 1,912,855,711 bytes Big improvement, but no compression yet, using ZIP and 7zip I get: SysSupt.zip 1,636,965,417 bytes and SysSupt.7z 1,609,663,862 bytes And YES, using ZIP/7zip to extract the .DA's, then EDA gives me a directory with exactly the same content that I started with. Like my other tools, these can deal with BIG directory trees, and the output file format is well documented should you ever want to recover the files by other means. Sorry if I've not responded to messages here, tend not to follow the list directly much these days due to the high content, but you can always reach me through the link on my site - might take me a few days to respond, but I do get to it from time to time... Dave -- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Personal site: http://dunfield.maknonsolutions.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- From phil at ultimate.com Mon Jul 13 22:12:23 2020 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 23:12:23 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> UUCP? From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Mon Jul 13 22:21:06 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 23:21:06 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > UUCP? Definitely a good method, especially if you don't have Kermit already. -ethan From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jul 13 23:13:50 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:13:50 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> Message-ID: That's.... A surprisingly good idea. I used a 7300 with uucico back in the 80's to route mail along with my Pro/350 running Venix to Yafc and the internet. I wonder if I can still do it. One oddity: The system came up but was faulting out on ports tty1 and 2. Editing /etc/inittab fixed that, but the system *does* have a two serial port card expansion module. Wonder if the modules have to be in specific slots or something... C On 7/13/2020 11:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Phil Budne via cctalk > wrote: >> UUCP? > > Definitely a good method, especially if you don't have Kermit already. > > -ethan > From cz at alembic.crystel.com Mon Jul 13 23:17:24 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:17:24 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <9df4861e-2f0f-1c22-9d78-01985e9c008f@alembic.crystel.com> Now that I think about it, I could probably make a tarball, use uuencode to turn it 7 bit, then cat it, then use uudecode on a mac to turn it back into a tarball. Always a way to do something. Time to raid the pdp11 for some null modem gear... On 7/13/2020 11:21 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Phil Budne via cctalk > wrote: >> UUCP? > > Definitely a good method, especially if you don't have Kermit already. > > -ethan > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 13 19:14:57 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2020 18:14:57 -0600 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 7/13/20 1:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for > safekeeping? Some combination of Internet Archive, BitKeepers, and TUHS would be my minimum recommendation. As you say, it's small. It wouldn't be hard to hold on to. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 14 01:38:56 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:38:56 -0600 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <64d55525-7f36-8f7c-be2c-6afc6a3ad223@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/13/20 9:12 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > UUCP? I'm glad that someone else said UUCP. I was thinking UUCP. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Jul 14 01:50:52 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:50:52 -0600 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <537b0132-48f4-62ec-8171-01abc6c48a80@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/13/2020 6:14 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/13/20 1:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >> Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for >> safekeeping? > > Some combination of Internet Archive, BitKeepers, and TUHS would be my > minimum recommendation. > > As you say, it's small.? It wouldn't be hard to hold on to. > Well you need to add a (compiler) executable file, and a linker and a assembler. Source code is still easy to find, but system software is a pain to find. You can't call Microsoft up and ask for 8 or 16 bit software any more. 90% of the DOS archives are gone. dd is also a handy thing to have on a PC. Under DOS BOX I use small C 2.2 to compile small C 1.1. The assembler and linker I use, just have ample memory for the symbol tables so you can't make big changes. Ben. From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 02:00:06 2020 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 00:00:06 -0700 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: <64d55525-7f36-8f7c-be2c-6afc6a3ad223@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> <64d55525-7f36-8f7c-be2c-6afc6a3ad223@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: David Gesswein's excellent MFM emulator will capture a full-fidelity image of the disk- both flux and bits- if you want the ultimate possible archival integrity: https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml Every vintage computing household needs at least one. On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:39 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/13/20 9:12 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > > UUCP? > > I'm glad that someone else said UUCP. I was thinking UUCP. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 14 04:42:57 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:42:57 +0100 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 14/07/2020 01:14, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: > On 7/13/20 1:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >> Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for >> safekeeping? > > Some combination of Internet Archive, BitKeepers, and TUHS would be my > minimum recommendation. > > As you say, it's small.? It wouldn't be hard to hold on to. > > > As it's now known to be on github, then I'd suggest simply cloning the existing repo. If the original ever goes away, then you can set up your own repo (for free). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From pat at vax11.net Tue Jul 14 07:35:58 2020 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 08:35:58 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> <64d55525-7f36-8f7c-be2c-6afc6a3ad223@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: This gets my vote too. Pat On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:00 AM Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > David Gesswein's excellent MFM emulator will capture a full-fidelity image > of the disk- both flux and bits- if you want the ultimate possible archival > integrity: > https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml > > Every vintage computing household needs at least one. > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:39 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 7/13/20 9:12 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > > > UUCP? > > > > I'm glad that someone else said UUCP. I was thinking UUCP. > > > > > > > > -- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die > > > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 14 08:53:43 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 06:53:43 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Message-ID: Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 10:37:13 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:37:13 +0000 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> , Message-ID: I'm curious as to where the term P-code came from and what defined it. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Antonio Carlini via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 2:42 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Small C ver 1.00 source? On 14/07/2020 01:14, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: > On 7/13/20 1:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >> Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for >> safekeeping? > > Some combination of Internet Archive, BitKeepers, and TUHS would be my > minimum recommendation. > > As you say, it's small. It wouldn't be hard to hold on to. > > > As it's now known to be on github, then I'd suggest simply cloning the existing repo. If the original ever goes away, then you can set up your own repo (for free). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Jul 14 10:49:40 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:49:40 -0400 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <05052b77-a23f-1a8a-13fb-a2e44dd34b8a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-07-14 11:37 a.m., dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm curious as to where the term P-code came from and what defined it. > Dwight > The first thing that comes to mind is UCSD P-system, but some people probably mean it to use "any interpreted bytecode". --Toby > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Antonio Carlini via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 2:42 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Small C ver 1.00 source? > > On 14/07/2020 01:14, Grant Taylor via cctech wrote: >> On 7/13/20 1:06 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: >>> Does anyone have any suggestions as to where it should go for >>> safekeeping? >> >> Some combination of Internet Archive, BitKeepers, and TUHS would be my >> minimum recommendation. >> >> As you say, it's small. It wouldn't be hard to hold on to. >> >> >> > As it's now known to be on github, then I'd suggest simply cloning the > existing repo. If the original ever goes away, then you can set up your > own repo (for free). > > > > Antonio > > > -- > Antonio Carlini > antonio at acarlini.com > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jul 14 11:19:44 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:19:44 -0400 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <05052b77-a23f-1a8a-13fb-a2e44dd34b8a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> <05052b77-a23f-1a8a-13fb-a2e44dd34b8a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <22A92802-1803-4AC3-A200-EE3A6C242792@comcast.net> > On Jul 14, 2020, at 11:49 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-07-14 11:37 a.m., dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I'm curious as to where the term P-code came from and what defined it. >> Dwight >> > > The first thing that comes to mind is UCSD P-system, but some people > probably mean it to use "any interpreted bytecode". > > --Toby I wonder if it came from RSTS-11 BASIC-PLUS (1970). It used what amounts to P-code, which it called "push-pop code". Probably because it was pretty much machine code for a simulated stack machine. That approach is at least a decade older, in fact. The world's first ALGOL compiler (Dijkstra and Zonneveld, 1961) also used this "machine code for an imaginary machine" technique. Or more precisely, a hybrid of P-codes and real machine instructions. This allows your compiler output to use primitives better suited to the language, like "enter ALGOL block" on a machine without a hardware stack. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 14 11:41:57 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 09:41:57 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 7/14/20 8:37 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm curious as to where the term P-code came from and what defined it. > Dwight The term "p-code" comes from the 1973 Pascal-P version of UCSD Pascal. There is disagreement as to what the "p" stands for--"portable" or "pseudo". In any case, the technique didn't originate with Pascal. BCPL had an "o-code" which was an intermediate instruction set between the compiler frontend and the target-machine code generator backend. That dates from the 1960s. I worked with a fellow who implemented a COBOL compiler in a CDC 6000-series PPU on a bet with Bill Norris back in the 1960s. I personally worked on a COBOL dialect translator whose implementation language was a p-code that dealt with abstract datatypes, such as tokens, operators, etc. The genius is that you can design a p-code to fit your needs, write to it and then either interpretively execute it or compile it to native machine code. The front end details never change; only the relatively simple back end--and optimization (e.g. loop unrolling, invariant variable elimination, etc.) is much easier with p-code as the object. Said COBOL translator was initially implemented to interpret the p-code, then was later implemented as assembly-language macros to generate native code. The first version was used to debug and test operation, the second (which sped up by 10x) for production use. Later, my team implemented a BASIC compiler which not only generated a p-code, but the compiler itself was implemented in its own p-code. I'd like to know of the first instance of a machine-independent intermediate code use. I suspect that it goes back to the 1950s. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 11:48:17 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:48:17 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> <64d55525-7f36-8f7c-be2c-6afc6a3ad223@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: You might be able to use a terminal to pull/push files via the serial port. Log in using the "install" user (password = blank/none) and work your way to the Hardware setup window. From there find the RS232 section and if necessary change NONE to TERMINAL. With a null modem adapter plug a serial 9600/N/1. Worth a try. b On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 9:01 AM Patrick Finnegan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This gets my vote too. > > Pat > > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 3:00 AM Ian Finder via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > David Gesswein's excellent MFM emulator will capture a full-fidelity > image > > of the disk- both flux and bits- if you want the ultimate possible > archival > > integrity: > > https://www.pdp8.net/mfm/mfm.shtml > > > > Every vintage computing household needs at least one. > > > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 11:39 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > On 7/13/20 9:12 PM, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > > > > UUCP? > > > > > > I'm glad that someone else said UUCP. I was thinking UUCP. > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Grant. . . . > > > unix || die > > > > > > > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Jul 14 12:21:10 2020 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:21:10 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> On 7/14/2020 6:53 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. > > Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. > > The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. Cool question! I remember them as a publisher of computer books back in the day. Never realized they were local (I live about a block from there now!). Apparently a large line of children's classics, too. I may not have any of their stuff, though. Their heyday seems have overlapped my "poor college student" phase, rather than my book acquisition phase. Vince I miss the OMSI of old. From fmc at reanimators.org Tue Jul 14 12:41:09 2020 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:41:09 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> References: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Jul 14, 2020, at 10:21, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/14/2020 6:53 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. > > > > Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. > > > > The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. > > Cool question! I remember them as a publisher of computer books back in the day. Never realized they were local (I live about a block from there now!). Y'all may want to take an hour to listen to this. I haven?t. The text at least names someone as co-founder. https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-293-merl-miller-dilithium-press -Frank McConnell From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 14 12:47:11 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:47:11 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller Message-ID: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> This may be a bit too new for this list but I thought what the heck - maybe one of you Compaq/DEC/HP guys would know: Is there any reason a Smart Array controller can't be used as a simple SCSI controller? I.E. No array, just using it to drive a tape library? TIA! -Ali From jason at smbfc.net Tue Jul 14 12:57:52 2020 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 10:57:52 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> Message-ID: <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> On 7/14/20 10:47 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > This may be a bit too new for this list but I thought what the heck - maybe > one of you Compaq/DEC/HP guys would know: > > Is there any reason a Smart Array controller can't be used as a simple SCSI > controller? I.E. No array, just using it to drive a tape library? TIA! > > -Ali > > > All the Smart Array controllers, to my knowledge, have the ability to run as a JBOD, so I imagine that would work. The biggest issue I've found with older SA controllers, is getting them configured (and driver support for really old ones on modern OSes). --Jason From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:02:41 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:02:41 -0600 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: <202007140312.06E3CNAK060197@ultimate.com> Message-ID: > One oddity: The system came up but was faulting out on ports tty1 and 2. > Editing /etc/inittab fixed that, but the system *does* have a two serial > port card expansion module. Wonder if the modules have to be in specific > slots or something... > The UnixPC uses geographic addressing (like an Apple II, unlike an IBM PC), so the I/O address of the hardware (Z8530 chip) is determined by the slot. I thought the UnixPC kernel/drivers were smart enough to automatically detect the serial card(s) in any slot, but it's been almost thirty years since I dealt with that, so perhaps I'm misremembering. The built-in serial port is one port of an NEC uPD7201 (or Intel 8274) at a fixed address, so the driver for that should always be present. From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 14 13:05:48 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:05:48 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> References: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> Message-ID: On Jul 14, 2020, at 10:21 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/14/2020 6:53 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. > > > > Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. > > > > The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. > > Cool question! I remember them as a publisher of computer books back in the day. Never realized they were local (I live about a block from there now!). In my confusion over why my Dad apparently had the books, I was quite surprised to notice Nimbus in Beaverton. I went looking, I was right ?Conquering Adventure Games? is one of their books, and it looks like I have a VIC-20 book from them that I inherited from a friend of my Aunt a few years ago (when she died my Aunt brought a whole carload of stuff down). > Apparently a large line of children's classics, too. I think that?s an unrelated venture, but who knows. > I may not have any of their stuff, though. Their heyday seems have overlapped my "poor college student" phase, rather than my book acquisition phase. > > Vince > > I miss the OMSI of old. I miss the old OMSI as well, it was definitely better in my mind. I?m still in search of anyone that can tell me anything about the Hunt the Wumpus game they had in the early/mid-80?s. I?d really love to find a copy of that game. I might actually have to read one or two of these books, just out of curiosity. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 14 13:07:16 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:07:16 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <0ffa01a3-0626-cc0f-0e62-db0f5f038b4a@frontier.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 14, 2020, at 10:41 AM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > Y'all may want to take an hour to listen to this. I haven?t. The text at least names someone as co-founder. > > https://ataripodcast.libsyn.com/antic-interview-293-merl-miller-dilithium-press > > -Frank McConnell Thanks, that includes a link to their Press Packet for the 1984 West Coast Computer Faire. Makes for some interesting reading. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 14 13:08:18 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:08:18 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <007401d65a09$c1134780$4339d680$@net> > All the Smart Array controllers, to my knowledge, have the ability to > run as a JBOD, so I imagine that would work. The biggest issue I've > found with older SA controllers, is getting them configured (and driver > support for really old ones on modern OSes). Jason, Thanks. To be clear there are no HDDs connected to the controller (there is a separate 5304 controller that has all the HDDs on it). I just did not have enough external ports on the 5304 to drive the tape library so I wanted to repurpose the original 3200 controller. I would think it would not be an issue but the system keeps complaining on boot that there are no physical drives (I assume it means HDDs) connected to the 3200. -Ali From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:15:27 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:15:27 -0600 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 9:37 AM dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm curious as to where the term P-code came from and what defined it. > There's no formal definition of "p-code". Although other similar "bytecodes" existed before, the term "p-code" or "pcode" came from the earliest implementations of Pascal, ncluding Pascal/S (subset) and Pascal-P, starting around 1972. Those originally ran on the CDC 6600, though the Pascal-P series of compilers were ported to many other machines, and served as the inspiration for UCSD Pascal. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:19:20 2020 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:19:20 -0600 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:42 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > The term "p-code" comes from the 1973 Pascal-P version of UCSD Pascal. > "p-code" does come from Pascal-P, but Pascal-P wasn't a version of UCSD Pascal. Pascal-P was developed on the CDC 6600 in 1972. UCSD Pascal didn't come about until 1977, so the term p-code predates UCSD Pascal by five years. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 14 13:32:25 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:32:25 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <007401d65a09$c1134780$4339d680$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> <007401d65a09$c1134780$4339d680$@net> Message-ID: On 7/14/20 12:08 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Thanks. To be clear there are no HDDs connected to the controller > (there is a separate 5304 controller that has all the HDDs on it). I > just did not have enough external ports on the 5304 to drive the > tape library so I wanted to repurpose the original 3200 controller. I > would think it would not be an issue but the system keeps complaining > on boot that there are no physical drives (I assume it means HDDs) > connected to the 3200. Can you move one HDD to the SMARTarray (to make it happy) and put the tape library on the 5304? My concern is that some RAID cards don't like to present things other than (logical / virtual) hard drives to the host OS. So I'm not sure if the tape drive will work connected to it or not. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jul 14 13:35:42 2020 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 11:35:42 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <1342054793.94566.1594667214966@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <5c35963fd05309507e4669812a3e75a6a9f04fe9.camel@shiresoft.com> Yes, I spent a good amount of my time at CMU in the late 70's re- writing the TOPS-10 version of that compiler with a new P-Code definition so that the target code could be run efficiently on small machines. I did the original work to target the PDP-11s on C.MMP. I still have the compiler source, documentation I wrote and all of the test cases. Unfortunately I no longer have the PDP11 P-Code interpreter that I wrote (all in PDP-11 assembler and BLISS-11). :-( However, I *think* I still have the interpreter I wrote in Pascal that I used for testing the compiler changes and code generation. TTFN - Guy On Tue, 2020-07-14 at 12:19 -0600, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:42 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > The term "p-code" comes from the 1973 Pascal-P version of UCSD > > Pascal. > > > > "p-code" does come from Pascal-P, but Pascal-P wasn't a version of > UCSD > Pascal. Pascal-P was developed on the CDC 6600 in 1972. > > UCSD Pascal didn't come about until 1977, so the term p-code predates > UCSD > Pascal by five years. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:41:25 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:41:25 +0100 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> Message-ID: <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> Ali, Its been a long time, but I think the answer is no. A tape is not a disk and uses a different SCSI command set to a disk. For example you can't rewind a disk. I found a SmartArray 3200 manual here:- http://index-of.es/Tutorials/Proliant%201600/SmartArray3200.pdf and in the Q&A it says :- Q. Does the Smart Array 3200 Controller support SCSI tape drives and CD-ROM drives? A. No; the Smart Array 3200 Controller only supports Wide-Ultra2 SCSI,Wide-Ultra SCSI-3, Fast-Wide SCSI-2, and Fast SCSI-2 hard drives. So I would say not. I know you can define a JBOD but a JBOD is not passed through as a physical disk. In most RAID controllers you can still carve up a JBOD into multiple LUNS. The devices the OS sees are "logical abstractions" of the devices the RAID controller sees and need to be be mapped to the physical devices in the controller. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ali via cctalk > Sent: 14 July 2020 18:47 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller > > This may be a bit too new for this list but I thought what the heck - maybe > one of you Compaq/DEC/HP guys would know: > > Is there any reason a Smart Array controller can't be used as a simple SCSI > controller? I.E. No array, just using it to drive a tape library? TIA! > > -Ali > > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Jul 14 14:03:44 2020 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:03:44 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. Henk Van: Zane Healy via cctalk Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 14 14:22:20 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:22:20 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> <007401d65a09$c1134780$4339d680$@net> Message-ID: <008a01d65a14$197ebb70$4c7c3250$@net> > Can you move one HDD to the SMARTarray (to make it happy) and put the > tape library on the 5304? > > My concern is that some RAID cards don't like to present things other > than (logical / virtual) hard drives to the host OS. So I'm not sure > if > the tape drive will work connected to it or not. Grant, I think Dave hit it on the head. The Smart Array controllers apparently only take HDDs and no other SCSI devices. I guess I am going to have to throw in a Adaptec card after all. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 14 14:22:20 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 12:22:20 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008901d65a14$1916f8f0$4b44ead0$@net> > Ali, > Its been a long time, but I think the answer is no. A tape is not a > disk and > uses a different SCSI command set to a disk. For example you can't > rewind a > disk. > > I found a SmartArray 3200 manual here:- > > http://index-of.es/Tutorials/Proliant%201600/SmartArray3200.pdf > > and in the Q&A it says :- > > Q. Does the Smart Array 3200 Controller support SCSI tape drives and > CD-ROM > drives? > A. No; the Smart Array 3200 Controller only supports Wide-Ultra2 > SCSI,Wide-Ultra SCSI-3, Fast-Wide SCSI-2, and Fast SCSI-2 hard drives. > > So I would say not. Dave, RTFM - Read The Friggin Manual. :) That pretty much settles it. Thanks for finding that bit of info. I am going to throw in an Adaptec controller in there and call it done! -Ali From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 15:24:40 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 21:24:40 +0100 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <008901d65a14$1916f8f0$4b44ead0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> <008901d65a14$1916f8f0$4b44ead0$@net> Message-ID: <14d801d65a1c$cddd39e0$6997ada0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Ali > Sent: 14 July 2020 20:22 > To: 'Dave Wade' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller > > > Ali, > > Its been a long time, but I think the answer is no. A tape is not a > > disk and uses a different SCSI command set to a disk. For example you > > can't rewind a disk. > > > > I found a SmartArray 3200 manual here:- > > > > http://index-of.es/Tutorials/Proliant%201600/SmartArray3200.pdf > > > > and in the Q&A it says :- > > > > Q. Does the Smart Array 3200 Controller support SCSI tape drives and > > CD-ROM drives? > > A. No; the Smart Array 3200 Controller only supports Wide-Ultra2 > > SCSI,Wide-Ultra SCSI-3, Fast-Wide SCSI-2, and Fast SCSI-2 hard drives. > > > > So I would say not. > > Dave, > > RTFM - Read The Friggin Manual. :) That pretty much settles it. Thanks for > finding that bit of info. I am going to throw in an Adaptec controller in there > and call it done! > > -Ali Ali, No probs! It has been a long time since I worked for Compaq, but I remember having huge issues with mixing tapes and disks and RAID controller compatibility. We used to have a big spreadsheet that showed all the compatible controllers/devices/operating systems, but even that failed us at times. Oddly, my old Microchannel Cheetah RAID controller in my P390 supports tapes and CD ROMS.... Dave From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jul 14 13:11:37 2020 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:11:37 +0100 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> Message-ID: <9C7F64B6-5900-4C9D-B317-9E59CB7F05A1@gmail.com> > On 14 Jul 2020, at 18:47, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a bit too new for this list but I thought what the heck - maybe > one of you Compaq/DEC/HP guys would know: > > Is there any reason a Smart Array controller can't be used as a simple SCSI > controller? I.E. No array, just using it to drive a tape library? TIA! > Nope. I don?t remember any Smart Array controllers supporting passthrough tapes until much later on. You just need a Wide Ultra 2 or 3 adapter for libraries, eg 154457-B21. There?s no mention of tape support in the install manual either. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 14 16:20:46 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:20:46 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13ef01d65a0e$617be5c0$2473b140$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1229f033-5b04-14a9-37bf-c00282ea6673@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/14/20 12:41 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I know you can define a JBOD but a JBOD is not passed through as a > physical disk. JBOD / single disk RAID 0 is different than pass through. I've worked with a few RAID cards that did support actual pass-through mode. I've not had any problems with things that are truly passed through. But I've not seen it many times. (Likely an effect of the corpus that I've worked with.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 14 19:04:22 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 17:04:22 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <9C7F64B6-5900-4C9D-B317-9E59CB7F05A1@gmail.com> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <9C7F64B6-5900-4C9D-B317-9E59CB7F05A1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000c01d65a3b$7f7ff1b0$7e7fd510$@net> > Nope. I don?t remember any Smart Array controllers supporting > passthrough tapes until much later on. You just need a Wide Ultra 2 or > 3 adapter for libraries, eg 154457-B21. There?s no mention of tape > support in the install manual either. > Thanks. I actually needed a dual port beasty so I am going to throw in an Adaptec 39160. The MSL5026 won't even come close to taxing the Adaptec but it has a Compaq ROM and is directly supported by SmartStart. -Ali From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 14 20:45:16 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 18:45:16 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> I?d love details on this! This sounds vaguely like a game I played on a Harris Minicomputer in the late 80?s. Zane > On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! > Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. > The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? > But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. > Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. > > Henk > > Van: Zane Healy via cctalk > Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) > > Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. > > Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. > > The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. > > Zane > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Jul 14 21:04:51 2020 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 19:04:51 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> Agreed, this sounds like a ton of fun to implement. --Jason On 7/14/20 6:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?d love details on this! This sounds vaguely like a game I played on a Harris Minicomputer in the late 80?s. > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! >> Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. >> The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? >> But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. >> Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. >> >> Henk >> >> Van: Zane Healy via cctalk >> Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. >> >> Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. >> >> The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. >> >> Zane >> > From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jul 14 21:15:08 2020 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 02:15:08 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com>, <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> Message-ID: This? The complete Star Ship: A simulation project (DP series in games ; no. 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/091839810X/ref=cm_sw_r_oth_api_i_mzMdFbMVV3YHH I actually have this book somewhere. I also remember a thinner one with a highly-colored cover. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jason Howe via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 10:04:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Agreed, this sounds like a ton of fun to implement. --Jason On 7/14/20 6:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?d love details on this! This sounds vaguely like a game I played on a Harris Minicomputer in the late 80?s. > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! >> Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. >> The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? >> But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. >> Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. >> >> Henk >> >> Van: Zane Healy via cctalk >> Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. >> >> Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. >> >> The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. >> >> Zane >> > From bear at typewritten.org Tue Jul 14 17:30:05 2020 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Tue, 14 Jul 2020 15:30:05 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <008a01d65a14$197ebb70$4c7c3250$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <13dc05d3-ed38-86e4-7b32-2da25f02e5fe@smbfc.net> <007401d65a09$c1134780$4339d680$@net> <008a01d65a14$197ebb70$4c7c3250$@net> Message-ID: <2AD43071-E637-4EA0-B1AC-62AF7FBF7299@typewritten.org> On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:22 PM, Ali via cctech wrote: > I think Dave hit it on the head. The Smart Array controllers apparently only take HDDs and no other SCSI devices. Not all of them. But it is a model-by-model "feature", and maybe not at all on any models prior to some generation. I have a tape library (and only a tape library) attached to a Smart Array P212, but this is a much newer (SAS) host adapter than the 3200. I vaguely recall having had to do some reading of spec sheets to find out that this one would work with tape. ok bear. -- until further notice From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 00:51:08 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:51:08 +0800 Subject: CDC CYBER 170 Consoles Message-ID: I have been working on CDC CYBER 170 mainframes between 1977 and 1988. In 2002 I wrote an open-source emulator for the CDC 6000 and CYBER series (see my website http://www.control-data.info/). In 2013 I also developed the open-source VHDL firmware emulating the console controller for these systems. The firmware runs on a Xilinx Virtex 6 FPGA on a PCI Express (PCIe) board. The off-the shelf Xilinx board carries a small custom "piggy-back" board with 4 DACs and 4 op-amps to interface to a DD60or CC545 console. This PCIe board was used by Paul Allen's Living Computer Museum (LCM) in Seattle from 2013 onward in a PC running my 6000/CYBER series emulator to drive a real DD60 console. The CC545 has a very similar interface and my emulated controller would work with it too. For many years I have been trying to find one of these vector drawn CC545 consoles to use with my emulator but I haven't been able to find one. Recently I decided to build a clone of it myself. Bitsavers has a hardware manual with schematics: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_170/62952600L_CYBER_170_Display_Station_CC545-CDEF_Hardware_Reference_26Mar1979.pdf The CC545 console achieved unusually fast deflection with an electromagnetically deflected CRT. I am trying to understand the tricks they used to get these high speeds. Part of the magic is a dual-yoke which provided gross positioning within 2 microseconds to anywhere on the screen using the first yoke (this is VERY fast) and then painted the character using a second yoke around that base position with 0.1 microsecond per stroke (this is VERY fast too). The two yokes work in an additive manner. The reason there are two yokes is that you need quite low inductivity/impedance to be able to drive the symbol vectors at 0.1 microsecond per vector with up to 24 vectors making up one character. The gross position yoke needs to create a large enough magnetic field to sweep across the entire screen so has a higher inductivity/impedance but the magnetic field has 2 microseconds to stabilise. The older DD60 console used electrostatic deflection which is much faster by its very nature. Traditional CRT oscilloscopes were all electrostatically deflected because of the speed advantage over electromagnetic deflection. The CC545 manual on Bitsavers has a good description of the circuits and schematics, but unfortunately Section 8 with the "Parts Data" has not been scanned. I really would like to know the types of transistors used in the 4 deflection amplifiers as well as the details of the dual-yoke and possibly the CRT data. It would also be very useful to see details of the design of the dual-yoke and possibly the inductivity of each of the coils. This dual-yoke is most unusual and very different from what is used in TVs, CRT monitors and even vector drawn games like Vectrex or early vector drawn Atari arcade games. Could somebody please help? Thanks Tom Hunter From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 01:26:20 2020 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 06:26:20 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com>, <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net>, Message-ID: Yes, that?s the one I have! The thinner one (with colored pages?), I have never seen. It describes procedures in a sort of FORTRAN style, at a ?high level?. It means you have to implement everything yourself ? Do not think you?re almost done, it is just a start. Think of the following modules: * Navigation officer * Tactical officer * - etc * the Brig * sensors (and the data) * ?universe intelligence? * enemy ships * etc. Van: Richard Cini via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 15 juli 2020 04:15 Aan: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) This? The complete Star Ship: A simulation project (DP series in games ; no. 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/091839810X/ref=cm_sw_r_oth_api_i_mzMdFbMVV3YHH I actually have this book somewhere. I also remember a thinner one with a highly-colored cover. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jason Howe via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 10:04:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Agreed, this sounds like a ton of fun to implement. --Jason On 7/14/20 6:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?d love details on this! This sounds vaguely like a game I played on a Harris Minicomputer in the late 80?s. > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! >> Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. >> The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? >> But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. >> Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. >> >> Henk >> >> Van: Zane Healy via cctalk >> Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. >> >> Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. >> >> The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. >> >> Zane >> > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed Jul 15 03:16:42 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 10:16:42 +0200 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> Message-ID: <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Jul 14, 2020 at 10:47:11AM -0700, Ali via cctalk wrote: [...] > Is there any reason a Smart Array controller can't be used as a simple SCSI > controller? I.E. No array, just using it to drive a tape library? TIA! In general, hardware RAID controllers cannot be used as ordinary controllers. There is no good use case for them in 2020, which is why they're all suddenly quite cheap. Much cheaper in fact than non-RAID controllers, IME, which irks me as I'm in the market for a plain SAS HBA for use with ZFS. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jul 15 08:18:20 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:18:20 -0400 Subject: CDC CYBER 170 Consoles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <518f8bc6-8647-82db-c482-1a810eadb0ec@telegraphics.com.au> On 2020-07-15 1:51 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have been working on CDC CYBER 170 mainframes between 1977 and 1988. ... > > For many years I have been trying to find one of these vector drawn CC545 > consoles to use with my emulator but I haven't been able to find one. > Recently I decided to build a clone of it myself. Bitsavers has a hardware > manual with schematics: > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_170/62952600L_CYBER_170_Display_Station_CC545-CDEF_Hardware_Reference_26Mar1979.pdf > > The CC545 console achieved unusually fast deflection with an > electromagnetically deflected CRT. I am trying to understand the tricks > they used to get these high speeds. Part of the magic is a dual-yoke which > provided gross positioning within 2 microseconds to anywhere on the screen Philco READ system (and probably others) did this as well. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/philco/displays/READ_Theory_And_Operation_Feb65.pdf --Toby > using the first yoke (this is VERY fast) and then painted the character > using a second yoke around that base position with 0.1 microsecond per > stroke (this is VERY fast too). The two yokes work in an additive manner. > ... > Tom Hunter > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jul 15 08:24:37 2020 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:24:37 -0400 Subject: CDC CYBER 170 Consoles In-Reply-To: <518f8bc6-8647-82db-c482-1a810eadb0ec@telegraphics.com.au> References: <518f8bc6-8647-82db-c482-1a810eadb0ec@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2020-07-15 9:18 a.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-07-15 1:51 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: >> I have been working on CDC CYBER 170 mainframes between 1977 and 1988. ... >> >> For many years I have been trying to find one of these vector drawn CC545 >> consoles to use with my emulator but I haven't been able to find one. >> Recently I decided to build a clone of it myself. Bitsavers has a hardware >> manual with schematics: >> >> >> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_170/62952600L_CYBER_170_Display_Station_CC545-CDEF_Hardware_Reference_26Mar1979.pdf >> >> The CC545 console achieved unusually fast deflection with an >> electromagnetically deflected CRT. I am trying to understand the tricks >> they used to get these high speeds. Part of the magic is a dual-yoke which >> provided gross positioning within 2 microseconds to anywhere on the screen > > Philco READ system (and probably others) did this as well. > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/philco/displays/READ_Theory_And_Operation_Feb65.pdf > Philco was also involved in the design of Carnegie's "Visual Display System Suitable for Time Shared Use", described by J. Quatse. It also had a fast vector generator described in that book. --Toby > --Toby > > >> using the first yoke (this is VERY fast) and then painted the character >> using a second yoke around that base position with 0.1 microsecond per >> stroke (this is VERY fast too). The two yokes work in an additive manner. >> ... >> Tom Hunter >> > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed Jul 15 09:01:00 2020 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 09:01:00 -0500 (CDT) Subject: cray unicos cds sold on ebay in 2016 In-Reply-To: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1a6605e4-5ab5-c7c3-84d5-dad86c15519d@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 11 Jul 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/11/20 6:14 AM, Plamen Mihaylov via cctalk wrote: >> Any clue who won this auction? > > No. > > But I bet there are some people that would be interested in it. > > jpkiwigeek on YouTube comes to mind. Now that I think about him, I've not > seen any new videos in a while. I hope that he's okay. Not dead, just ridiculously busy with all sorts of other stuff :/ I did not win this auction, although I do have a couple variants of UNICOS, I don't have them local at present. If anyone seriously cares they can message me off-list and I'll go figure out what's there. I appreciate you thinking of me though :) Take care all; - JP From ccth6600 at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 10:41:57 2020 From: ccth6600 at gmail.com (Tom Hunter) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:41:57 +0800 Subject: CDC CYBER 170 Consoles In-Reply-To: References: <518f8bc6-8647-82db-c482-1a810eadb0ec@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Thanks for the link to the Philco Read system. The manual lists interesting details like the inductivity of the deflection coils and the respective currents through them. Tom Hunter On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 9:24 PM Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2020-07-15 9:18 a.m., Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > > On 2020-07-15 1:51 a.m., Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > >> I have been working on CDC CYBER 170 mainframes between 1977 and 1988. > ... > >> > >> For many years I have been trying to find one of these vector drawn > CC545 > >> consoles to use with my emulator but I haven't been able to find one. > >> Recently I decided to build a clone of it myself. Bitsavers has a > hardware > >> manual with schematics: > >> > >> > >> > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_170/62952600L_CYBER_170_Display_Station_CC545-CDEF_Hardware_Reference_26Mar1979.pdf > >> > >> The CC545 console achieved unusually fast deflection with an > >> electromagnetically deflected CRT. I am trying to understand the tricks > >> they used to get these high speeds. Part of the magic is a dual-yoke > which > >> provided gross positioning within 2 microseconds to anywhere on the > screen > > > > Philco READ system (and probably others) did this as well. > > > > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/philco/displays/READ_Theory_And_Operation_Feb65.pdf > > > > Philco was also involved in the design of Carnegie's "Visual Display > System Suitable for Time Shared Use", described by J. Quatse. > > It also had a fast vector generator described in that book. > > --Toby > > > --Toby > > > > > >> using the first yoke (this is VERY fast) and then painted the character > >> using a second yoke around that base position with 0.1 microsecond per > >> stroke (this is VERY fast too). The two yokes work in an additive > manner. > >> ... > >> Tom Hunter > >> > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 13:23:52 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:23:52 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com>, <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net>, , Message-ID: I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Henk Gooijen via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 11:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Yes, that?s the one I have! The thinner one (with colored pages?), I have never seen. It describes procedures in a sort of FORTRAN style, at a ?high level?. It means you have to implement everything yourself ? Do not think you?re almost done, it is just a start. Think of the following modules: * Navigation officer * Tactical officer * - etc * the Brig * sensors (and the data) * ?universe intelligence? * enemy ships * etc. Van: Richard Cini via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 15 juli 2020 04:15 Aan: Jason Howe; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) This? The complete Star Ship: A simulation project (DP series in games ; no. 1) https://www.amazon.com/dp/091839810X/ref=cm_sw_r_oth_api_i_mzMdFbMVV3YHH I actually have this book somewhere. I also remember a thinner one with a highly-colored cover. Get Outlook for iOS ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Jason Howe via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 14, 2020 10:04:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Agreed, this sounds like a ton of fun to implement. --Jason On 7/14/20 6:45 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I?d love details on this! This sounds vaguely like a game I played on a Harris Minicomputer in the late 80?s. > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 14, 2020, at 12:03 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> >> If I am not mistaken, I have a book called Star Trek and it is from Dilithium Press! >> Memory is a bit vague, but it must be on one of my shelves. >> The book describes in ?FORTRAN style? the procedures for an NCC1701 simulator ? >> But if you dig deeper, there is * a lot * to do yourself. >> Anyway, this book was my inspiration to build a StarShip simulator back in the (19)80-ties. >> >> Henk >> >> Van: Zane Healy via cctalk >> Verzonden: dinsdag 14 juli 2020 15:53 >> Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Onderwerp: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) >> >> Out of curiosity, does anyone know anything about this publisher? They apparently existed in the late 70?s and early 80?s. They were apparently located in Beaverton, Oregon in the same business park, on Nimbus, where Norvac Electronics was. They obviously published some very strange computer books, including what looks to be a teen romance. I find myself with an embarrassingly nice little collection of the books, that my Dad apparently had. Considering I think he touched a computer twice in his life, they?re something of a mystery. >> >> Best title, ?Nailing Jelly to a Tree?, which is apparently a book on Software. >> >> The publisher sounds vaguely familiar, and I think I might have one or two other books from them in my collection. >> >> Zane >> > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 15 13:29:59 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:29:59 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On 7/15/20 2:16 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > ...I'm in the market for a plain SAS HBA for use with ZFS. Check and see if you can flash the Initiator Target (IT) firmware onto the RAID card such that it's no longer an Integrated RAID (IR) device. Thus giving you the HBA mode that you want. I've done this on a few RAID chip sets built into Supermicro motherboards and been quite happily running ZFS on them. }:-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From derek.newland at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 13:43:42 2020 From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:43:42 -0400 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was hoping to see some discussion about the Gotek. I too have one, but have not used it yet (mainly due to lack of a Windows machine), and am curious about the firmware and software requirements. On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:55 PM Bob Smith via cctalk wrote: > Two questions, > 1. If anyone is using these devices, which firmware/software do you > use in the device and why did you choose it? > > 2/ Is anyone specifically using one as a replacement or adjunct or and > RX50 et al on a Pro, pdp11, uVax, DecMate, or Pro box, and same > question set as 1? > > Yes, i picked up one, and looking at the capabilities, documentation > first, and considering reflashing the beast to give more control of > formats. > > TIA > bob smith > -- *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jul 15 14:06:22 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:06:22 -0600 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/15/20 12:43 PM, Derek Newland via cctalk wrote: > I was hoping to see some discussion about the Gotek. I too have one, > but have not used it yet (mainly due to lack of a Windows machine), > and am curious about the firmware and software requirements. I've got a GoTek 1.44 MB. I've not done much with it. I remember that loading images onto the flash drive was annoying without the software. Obviously you can change to the disk image number and copy the contents to it from the host. But purportedly there is software that will work with the flash drive directly under Windows and Linux. (I've not used it.) I've also read that the GoTek treats the flash drive as a big block of storage that is simply divided up such that each disk image number is at a different address range of the device. I have read that there is a 3rd party firmware that will allow the GoTek to read and write files off of a normal file system on the flash drive. I've not yet experimented with this. My understanding are based on a brief foray into the GoTek when I got it a few years ago. I could easily have been wrong at the time and / or mis-remembering now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 14:31:30 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:31:30 -0700 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: For what it's worth, take a look at the FlashFloppy firmware for the Gotek: https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy Open-source and handles a lot of different formats. Doubtless the RX50, if not one of them already, could be easily made so. I've installed it on a couple of Goteks and it seems to work okay--do consider replacing the 7-segment LED display with a cheap OLED--more information is displayed. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jul 15 14:53:00 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:53:00 -0700 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <63EBB1ED-B8C5-40CE-A643-F054C2CE56AB@avanthar.com> > On Jul 15, 2020, at 12:31 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > For what it's worth, take a look at the FlashFloppy firmware for the Gotek: > > https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy > > Open-source and handles a lot of different formats. Doubtless the RX50, > if not one of them already, could be easily made so. > > I've installed it on a couple of Goteks and it seems to work okay--do > consider replacing the 7-segment LED display with a cheap OLED--more > information is displayed. I have two of them, but haven?t considered using them on a DEC system. Then again, I?ve barely ever used a floppy on my DEC hardware, and then it was 20+ years ago. My target is my Amiga 600 and Amiga 1200. I have an old one I picked up at the Portland Retro Gaming Expo five or so years ago, and a new one that I got from AmigaKit recently. The AmigaKit one is nice, as I had it upgraded with the OLED and dial. They?re very nice. I really like being able to use a USB stick, rather than a floppy. The next computer I?d like to see about converting to flash will probably be an Apple ][e. My C-64 has used SD cards for year. Zane From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jul 15 14:54:18 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 12:54:18 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> Message-ID: On Jul 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. > Dwight The ?Hunt the Wumpus? I?m thinking of is actually graphical. Zane From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 15 15:09:21 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 13:09:21 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> > There is no good use case for them in 2020, which is why they're all > suddenly > quite cheap. Peter, Why do you say that? Not disagreeing per se but just wondering the reasoning behind it. -Ali From cruff at ruffspot.net Wed Jul 15 15:11:26 2020 From: cruff at ruffspot.net (Craig Ruff) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:11:26 -0600 Subject: Microfiche reader spotted in Longmont, CO thrift store Message-ID: If anyone along the northern Colorado Front Range is in need of a microfiche reader, it was reported to me that a Micro Design model 4010 is sitting in the Longmont Community Thrift store. My source didn't notice a price. The condition is unknown, but it appears to be reasonably intact, and a cell phone picture from the front is available if you send me a message. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 16:30:36 2020 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:30:36 +0100 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06fc01d65aef$2e24b710$8a6e2530$@gmail.com> I have several and I have used them on several machines, so IBM 3174 screen controller, IBM Pentium Server and Atari ST but not DEC, with the FlashFloppy software mentioned elsewhere. I programmed the Gotek on a Windows machine but there are instructions for Linux. It appears it supports RX50 but as I said I haven't tried it. It doesn't matter which version (720 or 1.44) once programmed with Flash Floppy it can be either drive. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Derek Newland > via cctalk > Sent: 15 July 2020 19:44 > To: Bob Smith ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 > replacements > > I was hoping to see some discussion about the Gotek. I too have one, but > have not used it yet (mainly due to lack of a Windows machine), and am > curious about the firmware and software requirements. > > On Sun, Jul 12, 2020 at 1:55 PM Bob Smith via cctalk > wrote: > > > Two questions, > > 1. If anyone is using these devices, which firmware/software do you > > use in the device and why did you choose it? > > > > 2/ Is anyone specifically using one as a replacement or adjunct or and > > RX50 et al on a Pro, pdp11, uVax, DecMate, or Pro box, and same > > question set as 1? > > > > Yes, i picked up one, and looking at the capabilities, documentation > > first, and considering reflashing the beast to give more control of > > formats. > > > > TIA > > bob smith > > > > > -- > *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 15 16:56:24 2020 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 14:56:24 -0700 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: <06fc01d65aef$2e24b710$8a6e2530$@gmail.com> References: <06fc01d65aef$2e24b710$8a6e2530$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2911aebf-1306-6ca4-be70-33ec5a86b0f2@sydex.com> On 7/15/20 2:30 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I have several and I have used them on several machines, so IBM 3174 screen controller, IBM Pentium Server and Atari ST but not DEC, with the FlashFloppy software mentioned elsewhere. > I programmed the Gotek on a Windows machine but there are instructions for Linux. > It appears it supports RX50 but as I said I haven't tried it. > It doesn't matter which version (720 or 1.44) once programmed with Flash Floppy it can be either drive. RX50 and RX33 support is claimed: https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy/commits?author=keirf&since=2018-06-01T00:00:00Z&until=2018-06-25T00:00:00Z --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:00:13 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:00:13 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> , Message-ID: Yes, it was a graphical game. It was a search game as I recall and the Wumpus was also on the move. The Poly88 used a memory mapped graphics. Other machines like the Atari 400/800 could, with minor modifications, run such a program. The Poly88 used a course graphics. Each character location could have a 3 high by 2 wide black/white block patterns ( let me see, that would be 128 different graphical patterns, as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: Zane Healy Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 12:54 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) On Jul 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. Dwight The ?Hunt the Wumpus? I?m thinking of is actually graphical. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:14:38 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:14:38 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> , , Message-ID: On Mikes page is a cassette copy of "hunt the Wumpus". It is in basic and is cassette data. One can easily strip the cassette headers out but the BASIC commands are encoded in the special characters. One could, without too much difficulty figure what most of the BASIC commands were and strip them out. It I have time, I could get my Poly88 up and running to create a listing in plain BASIC. The graphical part would still need some translation to what ever machine one wanted to target it to. Still, looking at the text/encoded characters, in a file viewer like Xtree, one could figure out the BASIC commands. It is easier than working out an encrypted message with fore knowledge of BASIC. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 4:00 PM To: Zane Healy ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Yes, it was a graphical game. It was a search game as I recall and the Wumpus was also on the move. The Poly88 used a memory mapped graphics. Other machines like the Atari 400/800 could, with minor modifications, run such a program. The Poly88 used a course graphics. Each character location could have a 3 high by 2 wide black/white block patterns ( let me see, that would be 128 different graphical patterns, as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: Zane Healy Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 12:54 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) On Jul 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. Dwight The ?Hunt the Wumpus? I?m thinking of is actually graphical. Zane From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 15 18:16:04 2020 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 23:16:04 +0000 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> , , , Message-ID: Oops forgot Mike's page: https://deramp.com/downloads/polymorphic/poly-88/software/Tape%20Images/BASIC/ Dwight ________________________________ From: dwight Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 4:14 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) On Mikes page is a cassette copy of "hunt the Wumpus". It is in basic and is cassette data. One can easily strip the cassette headers out but the BASIC commands are encoded in the special characters. One could, without too much difficulty figure what most of the BASIC commands were and strip them out. It I have time, I could get my Poly88 up and running to create a listing in plain BASIC. The graphical part would still need some translation to what ever machine one wanted to target it to. Still, looking at the text/encoded characters, in a file viewer like Xtree, one could figure out the BASIC commands. It is easier than working out an encrypted message with fore knowledge of BASIC. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 4:00 PM To: Zane Healy ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) Yes, it was a graphical game. It was a search game as I recall and the Wumpus was also on the move. The Poly88 used a memory mapped graphics. Other machines like the Atari 400/800 could, with minor modifications, run such a program. The Poly88 used a course graphics. Each character location could have a 3 high by 2 wide black/white block patterns ( let me see, that would be 128 different graphical patterns, as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: Zane Healy Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 12:54 PM To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) On Jul 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. Dwight The ?Hunt the Wumpus? I?m thinking of is actually graphical. Zane From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 19:51:55 2020 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 20:51:55 -0400 Subject: Gotek Floppy Drive Emulators in general and as RX50/RX33 replacements In-Reply-To: <2911aebf-1306-6ca4-be70-33ec5a86b0f2@sydex.com> References: <06fc01d65aef$2e24b710$8a6e2530$@gmail.com> <2911aebf-1306-6ca4-be70-33ec5a86b0f2@sydex.com> Message-ID: THanks all of you! I did not see any individual messages, just this whole string at once. I picked up the OLED hack bits, and will install thena and then go with FlashFloppy firmware, and the utilities I have found I have a virtual PC (98, XP, 7) and one windows 8 machine i picked up used specifically for SBC6120, DMII and PDP11/Pro fun. I have dug into the Floppy flash data and it looks like that is exactly what I need. Also dug out my Mittsumi and tring to find my stashed TEAC FD55 device. I still have 3 RX50 drives around, maybe a couple more, just gonna take some time and play with all this aiming at DECMate II as first try. I will keep you posted, THanks again for all the comments!! Appreciate the experience comments on the Gotek and that means I have a chance to get this to work with RX50! bob On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 5:56 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/15/20 2:30 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I have several and I have used them on several machines, so IBM 3174 screen controller, IBM Pentium Server and Atari ST but not DEC, with the FlashFloppy software mentioned elsewhere. > > I programmed the Gotek on a Windows machine but there are instructions for Linux. > > It appears it supports RX50 but as I said I haven't tried it. > > It doesn't matter which version (720 or 1.44) once programmed with Flash Floppy it can be either drive. > > RX50 and RX33 support is claimed: > > https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy/commits?author=keirf&since=2018-06-01T00:00:00Z&until=2018-06-25T00:00:00Z > > > --Chuck > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jul 15 20:01:04 2020 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 18:01:04 -0700 Subject: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) In-Reply-To: References: <11EFBF11-CBF2-4951-9F56-7FDAE902D9ED@avanthar.com> <6448c98a-9bd2-b9d1-dfcd-1e4d675e705e@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <779BE7FB-2B98-4562-8164-8FF3B4518D95@avanthar.com> Here is a good description of what I?m after. https://scifi.stackexchange.com/questions/176614/seeking-a-game-like-hunt-the-wumpus-but-with-graphics-rpg-elements-and-a-balro Obviously I?m not the only one looking. Zane > On Jul 15, 2020, at 4:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > Oops forgot Mike's page: > https://deramp.com/downloads/polymorphic/poly-88/software/Tape%20Images/BASIC/ > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: dwight > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 4:14 PM > To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) > > On Mikes page is a cassette copy of "hunt the Wumpus". It is in basic and is cassette data. One can easily strip the cassette headers out but the BASIC commands are encoded in the special characters. One could, without too much difficulty figure what most of the BASIC commands were and strip them out. It I have time, I could get my Poly88 up and running to create a listing in plain BASIC. The graphical part would still need some translation to what ever machine one wanted to target it to. > Still, looking at the text/encoded characters, in a file viewer like Xtree, one could figure out the BASIC commands. It is easier than working out an encrypted message with fore knowledge of BASIC. > Dwight > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 4:00 PM > To: Zane Healy ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) > > Yes, it was a graphical game. > It was a search game as I recall and the Wumpus was also on the move. > The Poly88 used a memory mapped graphics. Other machines like the Atari 400/800 could, with minor modifications, run such a program. The Poly88 used a course graphics. Each character location could have a 3 high by 2 wide black/white block patterns ( let me see, that would be 128 different graphical patterns, as I recall ). > Dwight > ________________________________ > From: Zane Healy > Sent: Wednesday, July 15, 2020 12:54 PM > To: dwight ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Dilithium Press (Computer Books) > > On Jul 15, 2020, at 11:23 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > I ran "Hunt the Wumpus" on my Poly88. I don't recall if it was part of their games collection or I typed it in form some book. > Dwight > > The ?Hunt the Wumpus? I?m thinking of is actually graphical. > > Zane > > From grumpyx at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 20:56:39 2020 From: grumpyx at gmail.com (Grumpyx) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 21:56:39 -0400 Subject: 100p Cables Message-ID: I ran across some 50 POS 100 C/L card edge ribbon cables 9.5' in length, AMP 1-583717-9 connectors on each end. It's 2 x 50 pin cables between the connectors. https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1rjGLewB3J4fDJc5cTRgDwInAVjWz2dxx?usp=sharing Any good uses for such a cable? Anyone in need of some? From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 21:38:32 2020 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:38:32 -0400 Subject: interfacing DSI NC 2400 tape reader/punch Message-ID: Is there a trick to archiving tapes to PC using Teraterm from a DSI NC 2400 reader/punch? Or is there a best software for this? From the terminal I can ctrl+Q to cause the reader to initiate a read of a test tape but I can't capture the output of the tape through the modem port of the reader into the serial port of my PC. I tried various things with settings. I was told it uses hardware flow control. The reader is set correctly as far as I can tell. I am using 2400/8/n/1 but I have tried other settings. I get no response from the terminal inbound at all. I am using a USB to serial interface that I know works with an RS232 modem, but it may not work with the reader. If so, I'd like to know if anyone has a similar experience. It may not be straight forward and I have to make a custom cable. I will keep at it, report if I find the answers. Bill From mooreericnyc at gmail.com Wed Jul 15 22:28:25 2020 From: mooreericnyc at gmail.com (Eric Moore) Date: Wed, 15 Jul 2020 22:28:25 -0500 Subject: interfacing DSI NC 2400 tape reader/punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dsi/ You can find the manual there. Check the dip switches in the punch for the RS232 settings. You can also see the self test instructions. You may need a null modem cable. https://gitlab.com/NF6X_Retrocomputing/papertape Here is a set of python scripts for reading/writing to your punch written by NF6X. https://youtu.be/hGr0F9a7x1A Here is a video I made last week about my new punch and reader :). I really wanted a DSI NC2400 but was not able to find an affordable one, nice find! Do you have any paper tape to use with it? The punch may want oiled paper tape. -Eric On Wed, Jul 15, 2020, 21:38 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > Is there a trick to archiving tapes to PC using Teraterm from a DSI NC 2400 > reader/punch? Or is there a best software for this? From the terminal I > can ctrl+Q to cause the reader to initiate a read of a test tape but I > can't capture the output of the tape through the modem port of the reader > into the serial port of my PC. I tried various things with settings. > > I was told it uses hardware flow control. The reader is set correctly as > far as I can tell. I am using 2400/8/n/1 but I have tried other settings. > I get no response from the terminal inbound at all. I am using a USB to > serial interface that I know works with an RS232 modem, but it may not work > with the reader. If so, I'd like to know if anyone has a > similar experience. > > It may not be straight forward and I have to make a custom cable. I will > keep at it, report if I find the answers. > > Bill > From rtomek at ceti.pl Thu Jul 16 01:57:56 2020 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:57:56 +0200 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <20200716065756.GA30673@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 02:30:37PM -0400, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: > I can't make ANY assertions about version or pedigree of the files > (which came to me in 1981 when I was using a PDP-10), but they APPEAR > to be from Ron Cain himself, from SRI-KL (TOPS-20): > > ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/c80.tar.gz > > Which contains runtime files from November 1979, and compiler files > dated June 1981. By pure coincidence I have found the page with many versions of Small C. Just in case someone needs them: http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c.html And this one is claimed to be "SMALL C converted to the 8088 by Byte magazine": http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c/smc88dos.zip -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Jul 16 02:32:57 2020 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 00:32:57 -0700 Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <20200716065756.GA30673@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <20200716065756.GA30673@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <21e7f17a-ca80-afb2-6d62-550cafecea69@jwsss.com> On 7/15/2020 11:57 PM, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 02:30:37PM -0400, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote: >> I can't make ANY assertions about version or pedigree of the files >> (which came to me in 1981 when I was using a PDP-10), but they APPEAR >> to be from Ron Cain himself, from SRI-KL (TOPS-20): >> >> ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/c80.tar.gz >> >> Which contains runtime files from November 1979, and compiler files >> dated June 1981. > By pure coincidence I have found the page with many versions of Small > C. Just in case someone needs them: > > http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c.html This pages V1.0 "Plus" is the first version, but converted to z80. The OP was hunting for the 8080 original. I think this was posted earlier, but thanks for finding. > And this one is claimed to be "SMALL C converted to the 8088 by Byte > magazine": > > http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c/smc88dos.zip > I don't know where I got that one, but looks like I grabbed it in 2009. Thanks to all who responded.? I did a cross port of this compiler to a system I had in about 79 or so, when it first came out, and I'm interested in it? since it's the first compiler I ever messed with porting. I sent Will Cook my copies of the 8080, and will let him follow up on it.? I've got both the 8080 original source and a version that will run on a CPM system or emulator.? I may have to redo my exercise now that I've got an emulation of the original system, as well as a CPM system emulation. Thanks Jim From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Jul 16 04:05:55 2020 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 04:05:55 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Small C ver 1.00 source? In-Reply-To: <20200716065756.GA30673@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <570888920.187733.1594642935916@email.ionos.com> <202007131830.06DIUbHN049035@ultimate.com> <20200716065756.GA30673@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <215084861.360125.1594890355638@email.ionos.com> > On July 16, 2020 at 1:57 AM Tomasz Rola wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 02:30:37PM -0400, Phil Budne via cctalk wrote:> I can't make ANY assertions about version or pedigree of the files(which came to me in 1981 when I was using a PDP-10), but they APPEARto be from Ron Cain himself, from SRI-KL (TOPS-20): > > ftp://ftp.ultimate.com/pdp10/c80.tar.gz > > Which contains runtime files from November 1979, and compiler filesdated June 1981.By pure coincidence I have found the page with many versions of SmallC. Just in case someone needs them: > http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c.html > And this one is claimed to be "SMALL C converted to the 8088 by Bytemagazine": > http://www.cpm.z80.de/small_c/smc88dos.zip > --Regards,Tomasz Rola > --** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **** **** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** Hi Tomasz, Thanks for the link. I had seen that page but as Jim Stephens mentioned in his reply I was looking for the original 8080 version. Thanks to him and Phil Budne I now have it. They separately provided identical copies that had apparently come directly from Ron Cain. There is also a copy on github that was apparently OCRed and corrected. I am comparing it now to the others. I intend to create a page on my website dedicated to Small C. I will include the original source and probably a few other interesting ports if anyone is interested. I do think this is an important piece of historical software that should be preserved. Thanks for finding that! Will From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 06:36:04 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:36:04 +0200 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> Message-ID: On Wed, 15 Jul 2020 at 22:09, Ali via cctalk wrote: > > > There is no good use case for them in 2020, which is why they're all > > suddenly > > quite cheap. > > Peter, > > Why do you say that? Not disagreeing per se but just wondering the reasoning > behind it. Happily for me I don't do stuff like build production servers any more, but my understanding is this: With modern hardware, it's easier, cheaper and more flexible to build and manage arrays in software, using modern filesystems such as ZFS, Btrfs, or MS Storage Spaces on Windows Server. I was recently documenting the use of Btrfs for this on SUSE Linux Enterprise Server: the benefits of doing it in software are that you can dynamically migrate arrays between different RAID levels, add new drives and resize the array to include them or add them as additional parity disks on the fly, you can mark individual files as having different RAID levels (for example, you could place the OS' virtual memory space in a file on the RAID and tell the filesystem not to compute parity for it, just stripe it, for better performance). ZFS and Ceph allow for a mix of high-speed (e.g. SSD, NVMe, even NVDIMM) storage and low-speed but large rotational storage, and use the faster storage to cache the slower stuff. And of course, if your server dies, then the array can be mounted on any other box with the same OS and you can retrieve data from it -- which is far more difficult if a hardware RAID controller dies, in which case you might need the same firmware revision etc., and possibly onboard controller config info. Ceph now basically lets you build arrays of storage servers, so that you can, say, have single storage volumes comprising local storage in different countries, or on different continents, for local access speed and the software syncs it in the background between zones or regions. So it's no longer an array of physical disks on one server, it's an array of servers with disks in them -- and the servers and the disks may themselves be virtualised. It gets very complicated but it's also very powerful and flexible. Dedicated hardware just can't do stuff like this any more. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 16 07:09:24 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:09:24 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> Message-ID: <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> > And of course, if your server dies, then the array can be mounted on > any other box with the same OS and you can retrieve data from it -- > which is far more difficult if a hardware RAID controller dies, in > which case you might need the same firmware revision etc., and > possibly onboard controller config info. Funny story about that: In 1990 I installed a Compaq systempro for Hechinger's that cost over $100,000. Had a full compliment of memory, max internal disk on the ATA controller, and two external boxes of disks with the smart SCSI-ish controller. Massive system running Sybase SQL. Designed to replace a 24*7 mainframe and expected to be up all the time. Got a call 2 months later: The system had blown a hole in one of the disk controllers and was down. Called Compaq, they got someone on a plane with a spare controller from the west coast and I drove out to meet them in the middle of the night so we could get the system up by morning. That was pretty insane. And pointed out that "mainframe" PC's didn't have anywhere near the redundancy or support of true mainframes. C From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 07:18:45 2020 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:18:45 +0200 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 16 Jul 2020 at 14:09, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Funny story about that: In 1990 I installed a Compaq systempro for > Hechinger's that cost over $100,000. I just about remember the SystemPro machines. One of my bigger clients in my first job got one, but they hired a full-time guy to customise their app for it, and he also became the sysadmin. A very early example of devops, I suppose. So I never got to play around with it. :-( > Had a full compliment of memory, > max internal disk on the ATA controller, ATA? That long ago? Possible but unusual in a server, I would have thought. What OS, just out of interest? > and two external boxes of disks > with the smart SCSI-ish controller. Massive system running Sybase SQL. > Designed to replace a 24*7 mainframe and expected to be up all the time. A single box? Oh dear. > Got a call 2 months later: The system had blown a hole in one of the > disk controllers and was down. Called Compaq, they got someone on a > plane with a spare controller from the west coast and I drove out to > meet them in the middle of the night so we could get the system up by > morning. > > That was pretty insane. And pointed out that "mainframe" PC's didn't > have anywhere near the redundancy or support of true mainframes. Oh yes indeed. I've had catastrophic hardware failures, but luckily, none that took out a RAID controller. I've just heard the horror stories. I finally left the support business in about 2011, but by then, it was fairly standard practice to install VMware (the free VMware ESX hypervisor if the company didn't have a paid vSphere site licence) on all new boxes, then install the OS in that. Even if it was a dedicated machine that only ran 1 OS ever. Because that way, if the machine died, you could restore the backup onto a new, totally different box, so long as it was running ESX, and it would Just Work? with no driver or activation issues -- the virtualised hardware was the same. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? gMail/gTalk/gHangouts: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/LinkedIn/Flickr: lproven ? Skype: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 16 10:20:03 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 09:20:03 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> Message-ID: On 7/16/20 5:36 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It gets very complicated but it's also very powerful and flexible. > Dedicated hardware just can't do stuff like this any more. I largely agree for data stored on the systems. However, PCs and compatibles, have long had an issue /reliably/ booting across multiple drives. Especially with a soft failure on the primary boot device. As such, I find it much more convenient to have a hardware RAID controller for at least the OS boot files. Then use all the fancy feautes like you mention for data files. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 16 10:35:35 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:35:35 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <0ccadfb7-7ae7-32a2-b9f1-f7cdd911f9a2@alembic.crystel.com> > ATA? That long ago? Sorry, IDE like. Forgot the terminology. You could put 4 drives on a controller, then two controllers per unit (EISA was cool). > Possible but unusual in a server, I would have thought. > > What OS, just out of interest? I think it was SCO Unix. > A single box? Oh dear. We were so silly back then :-) > I've had catastrophic hardware failures, but luckily, none that took > out a RAID controller. I've just heard the horror stories. I remember pulling it. There was a hole where one of the ASIC chips was. Pretty amazing to be honest, but oh well. Compaq took it back to the factory for review. > I finally left the support business in about 2011, but by then, it was > fairly standard practice to install VMware (the free VMware ESX > hypervisor if the company didn't have a paid vSphere site licence) on > all new boxes, then install the OS in that. Even if it was a dedicated > machine that only ran 1 OS ever. Because that way, if the machine > died, you could restore the backup onto a new, totally different box, > so long as it was running ESX, and it would Just Work? with no driver > or activation issues -- the virtualised hardware was the same. VMWare was *great*. I started using it on a small IBM box, then once I realized it was like a true mainframe OS we bought a pair of IBM 366's and a DS4300 SAN. Then upgraded the CPUs on them (4 CPUs). Then a set of DS4700 SANs (redundant arrays of arrays with 2 controllers per array). Then got a third so we could always run 2/3 of the cluster as opposed to 50% (for failover, see SystemPro). Then 3850's and 3950's with QPI memory sharing. God that worked, I was able to get 70-80 servers per box running away.... Much cheaper to run systems there than in the cloud. But everyone loves the cloud, so off we go. C > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 16 10:40:49 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:40:49 -0700 Subject: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> Message-ID: <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> > > Had a full compliment of memory, > > max internal disk on the ATA controller, > > ATA? That long ago? > > Possible but unusual in a server, I would have thought. Funny story about that - I just setup a Systempro XL at home to play with. It is fully decked out w/ dual processor 50MHZ 486s (not DX2), 512MB of memory, a 4GB SCSI Boot Drive and six 2GB SCSI drives in RAID 5. The Compaq systems came standard with what Compaq called the IDA (Intelligent Drive Array). It was IDE based but did not use standard IDE drives. I think it could do RAID 0, 1, and 3 (or the equivalents there of). Compaq even had a few iterations of the controller and cached ones. Interestingly the Systempro XL had a SCSI 2 controller on the MB mainly used for the tape dive or CD while the base config came with an IDA 2 controller and could have up to eight drives. In addition you could install extra IDA controllers for even more drives or to drive external boxes. Or you could upgrade to a SCSI array - which is what I have running in my Systempro XL. > > What OS, just out of interest? Target OS was WinNT 3.1 initially and then 4.0. 2K was also supported but the machine really was not meant for 2k. You could also run OS/2, Novell Netware, Compaq DOS, and supposedly there was even a version of MS LanMan (the full server OS not the client) for the Systempro that allowed SMP. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 16 10:52:16 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 08:52:16 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> Message-ID: <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> > With modern hardware, it's easier, cheaper and more flexible to build > and manage arrays in software, using modern filesystems such as ZFS, > Btrfs, or MS Storage Spaces on Windows Server. I have never used a SW RAID solution (except for a RAID 0 on Win2K3 for the boot drive) and have used HW controllers in my more recent systems (I am particular to the Areca Controllers - cheap but effective with a good feature mix). What I find problematic with RAID (specially RAID 6) is that with the larger drives we have in use today build (or more importantly rebuild/recovery) times are extremely long. Long enough that you could have a second drive failure during that time based on statistics. This is an article (for the layman) written in 2010 predicting the lack of usability of RAID 6 by 2019: www.zdnet.com/article/why-raid-6-stops-working-in-2019/. I found the math in it interesting and the conclusions pretty true to my experience. I am wondering if SW RAID is faster in rebuild times by now (using the full power of the multi-core processors) vs. a dedicated HW controller (even one with dual cores). -Ali From cz at alembic.crystel.com Thu Jul 16 10:54:11 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:54:11 -0400 Subject: NCR 3550 Digital Library Was Re: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> Message-ID: Now in terms of the most MANLY system I worked on, that would be the NCR3550 we had at the IEEE Computer Society. When I arrived in 1993 it had been donated, but was doing nothing with 4 486 CPUs in it and a weird copy of AT&T unix. I took one look at the 256 bit interleaved memory architecture the 3 levels of cache with affinity, the infinite amount of space for disks, and the dual micro-channel busses and fell in *love* We talked to NCR, upgraded it to 512mb memory, 8 Pentium Pro/200 CPUs, and dual Microchannel busses with FDDI and Ethernet interfaces. Loaded it with disks, installed Windows NT 4.0 on it, and turned it into TALOS, the main server for the IEEE Computer Society's Digital Library (which I built). Partnered with Anderson and Netscape to multi-thread commerce server (SSL), built an E-account system in Lotus Domino/Notes, and loaded up all of our SGML with an SGML to HTML converter (Dynaweb) and a custom tool that could convert Tek math to GIFs on the fly. That process could take advantage of all 8 CPUs and render complex math articles in real time. Also did e-commerce for awhile with online credit card processing for memberships and conferences (SuperComputing/95 was the first conference to do on-line credit cards, I built that too because I was sick and tired of keying in the cards myself. Laziness is next to godliness) It served for years as the CS Digital Library core server with 30,000-40,000 accounts in active use. Man that thing was a truck, I wish I knew what had happened to it. And to think, it all started with the computer room ceiling collapsing from all the RS232 cables from the Vax and crushing our Sun Sparc 20 web server that kicked off this whole thing. I should write a book or an article about that. We did so much that was so... new... and all of that could be forgotten like tears in the rain.... CZ On 7/16/2020 11:40 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: >>> Had a full compliment of memory, >>> max internal disk on the ATA controller, >> >> ATA? That long ago? >> >> Possible but unusual in a server, I would have thought. > > Funny story about that - I just setup a Systempro XL at home to play with. It is fully decked out w/ dual processor 50MHZ 486s (not DX2), 512MB of memory, a 4GB SCSI Boot Drive and six 2GB SCSI drives in RAID 5. The Compaq systems came standard with what Compaq called the IDA (Intelligent Drive Array). It was IDE based but did not use standard IDE drives. I think it could do RAID 0, 1, and 3 (or the equivalents there of). Compaq even had a few iterations of the controller and cached ones. Interestingly the Systempro XL had a SCSI 2 controller on the MB mainly used for the tape dive or CD while the base config came with an IDA 2 controller and could have up to eight drives. In addition you could install extra IDA controllers for even more drives or to drive external boxes. Or you could upgrade to a SCSI array - which is what I have running in my Systempro XL. > > >> >> What OS, just out of interest? > > Target OS was WinNT 3.1 initially and then 4.0. 2K was also supported but the machine really was not meant for 2k. You could also run OS/2, Novell Netware, Compaq DOS, and supposedly there was even a version of MS LanMan (the full server OS not the client) for the Systempro that allowed SMP. > > -Ali > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 16 12:08:37 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:08:37 -0600 Subject: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> Message-ID: <3a302932-f061-87f1-00e3-aa10a1add447@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/16/20 9:40 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > there was even a version of MS LanMan (the full server OS not the client) Please elaborate on what you mean by "the full server OS". My understanding is that Microsoft LAN Manager was an /add-on/ product that could be installed /on/ /top/ /of/ an /existing/ server OS. I've seen MS LAN Man in associateion with DOS, Windows (3.x / NT), and OS/2. There is also IBM LAN Manager. I can't articulate the differences between IBM and Microsoft LAN Manager. Much like I can't articulate the differences between IBM OS/2 and Microsoft OS/2. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 16 12:21:36 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:21:36 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> Message-ID: <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/16/20 9:52 AM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > I have never used a SW RAID solution (except for a RAID 0 on Win2K3 for > the boot drive) Are you sure that was RAID 0 (zero), /striping/? I've never heard of /software/ RAID 0 (striping) for the /boot/ drive in Windows. I would expect that to be RAID 1 or something other than the drive with NTLDR.EXE on it. I also suspect that the drive with %SystemRoot% on it would need to more conducive to loading driver and software RAID support files very early in the boot process. > and have used HW controllers in my more recent systems (I am particular > to the Areca Controllers - cheap but effective with a good feature > mix). I've completely lost track of hardware RAID controllers. I'm now more interested in I.T. HBA controllers to use with ZFS based software RAID. > What I find problematic with RAID (specially RAID 6) is that with > the larger drives we have in use today build (or more importantly > rebuild/recovery) times are extremely long. Long enough that you > could have a second drive failure during that time based on statistics. That's one of the reasons that ZFS supports three drives worth of redundancy in addition to the data space. RAID Z1 / Z2 / Z3. I think we are quickly getting to the point, if not past it, where a /single/ RAID array can't safely hold the entirety of the necessary storage. Instead, I see multiple smaller RAID arrays aggregated together at a higher layer. I've seen this done by striping / JBODing / LVMing / etc. multiple discrete RAID arrays together in the OS. ZFS natively does this by striping (RAID 0) across multiple underlying RAID sets (of whatever RAID level you want). > This is an article (for the layman) written in 2010 > predicting the lack of usability of RAID 6 by 2019: > www.zdnet.com/article/why-raid-6-stops-working-in-2019/. I found > the math in it interesting and the conclusions pretty true to my > experience. > > I am wondering if SW RAID is faster in rebuild times by now (using the > full power of the multi-core processors) vs. a dedicated HW controller > (even one with dual cores). I think that the CPU overhead / computation time is now largely insignificant. To me, one of the biggest issues is the simple massing amount of data that needs to be read from and written to multiple drives. At full interface speed, some drives can take a LONG time to transfer all the data. What's worse is the sustained I/O speed to platters of spinning rust being significantly slower than the interface speed. This is where some intelligence in the RAID implementation is really nice. There is very little need to rebuild the yet unused area of a big RAID array. ZFS shines in this as it only (re)builds the area that has any data on it. Only have a few hundred GB on that multi TB RAID array consisteng of multipel 1 TB drives? Fine. Only need to check the few hundred GB. It's actually quite fast. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu Jul 16 12:31:06 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 19:31:06 +0200 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> Message-ID: <20200716173106.GA23589@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 08:52:16AM -0700, Ali via cctalk wrote: [...] > This is an article (for the layman) written in 2010 predicting the lack of > usability of RAID 6 by 2019: > www.zdnet.com/article/why-raid-6-stops-working-in-2019/. I found the math in > it interesting and the conclusions pretty true to my experience. The author screwed up his maths and also made faulty assumptions. The article states that "SATA drives are commonly specified with an unrecoverable read error rate (URE) of 10^14. Which means that once every 200,000,000 sectors, the disk will not be able to read a sector." and then "2 hundred million sectors is about 12 terabytes." It seems he is using a sector size of 64kiB. Standard SATA disks have 4kiB sectors. "At that point the RAID reconstruction stops". Maybe on his garbage hardware RAID controller with 64kiB stripes which chokes on a single-bit error in a stripe because it's too dumb to figure out which disk is lying. ZFS is somewhat smarter than that. > I am wondering if SW RAID is faster in rebuild times by now (using the full > power of the multi-core processors) vs. a dedicated HW controller (even one > with dual cores). Not only is software RAID faster now, but this has been the case for at least 15 years. The necessary calculations are trivially vectorisable and are usually limited by memory bandwidth. Which is several orders of magnitude faster than a hard disk. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 16 12:58:23 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 10:58:23 -0700 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> > Are you sure that was RAID 0 (zero), /striping/? I've never heard of > /software/ RAID 0 (striping) for the /boot/ drive in Windows. I would > expect that to be RAID 1 or something other than the drive with > NTLDR.EXE on it. I also suspect that the drive with %SystemRoot% on it > would need to more conducive to loading driver and software RAID > support > files very early in the boot process. Absolutely correct. Proof reading good ;)! It was RAID 1. > That's one of the reasons that ZFS supports three drives worth of > redundancy in addition to the data space. RAID Z1 / Z2 / Z3. > Interesting. Is there an official RAID level for three drive parity? The Areca controllers do combined levels (e.g. 60 for two RAID 6 arrays stripped) but I don't think they do mirroring of parity RAID levels. > I think that the CPU overhead / computation time is now largely > insignificant. To me, one of the biggest issues is the simple massing > amount of data that needs to be read from and written to multiple > drives. At full interface speed, some drives can take a LONG time to > transfer all the data. What's worse is the sustained I/O speed to > platters of spinning rust being significantly slower than the interface > speed. True. That is one of the points the article makes too. Basically, you can't get the data fast enough but that would be inherent in both SW and HW implementations. The only way to overcome that is to use SSDs I would think. > Only have a few hundred GB on that multi TB RAID array > consisteng of multipel 1 TB drives? Fine. Only need to check the few > hundred GB. It's actually quite fast. That is nice. I may have to look at it next time I do a RAID implementation. -Ali From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Jul 16 13:07:46 2020 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 11:07:46 -0700 Subject: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <3a302932-f061-87f1-00e3-aa10a1add447@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> <3a302932-f061-87f1-00e3-aa10a1add447@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <005801d65b9c$0310d970$09328c50$@net> > > Please elaborate on what you mean by "the full server OS". MS LanMan was Microsoft's networking OS of choice before NT. The base OS I believe was based on MS OS/2 1.31. Wiki has some more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAN_Manager I have a copy of it somewhere. Here is a picture of the package: 3.bp.blogspot.com/-KaapV596wY0/WLSlOaIjSJI/AAAAAAAAAdU/VNNQtD-iqjs7ZkvuQGqD7-vP0vmFbQfUwCLcB/s1600/s-l300.jpg -Ali From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:34:05 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:34:05 -0700 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board Message-ID: Hi all -- Picked up a board advertised as a "4mb memory board" for a VAX-11/750. It's made by Dataram and I'm unsure of the model number, based on photos of it. I just noticed that rather than being a hex-height board that goes in the memory backplane, it looks like a board that goes in the main CMI backplane. It also appears to have 16mb of ECC memory on it, rather than 4mb. My thought is either (1) it's not actually for an 11/750 (in which case I'm curious what it would go into), or (2) it completely replaces the memory controller and standard memory and gives you 16mb in the 750. (Or it could be that it's something else entirely.) If anyone has any ideas or has a source of information, let me know. I put up a few pictures here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dataram/ Thanks as always, - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:41:59 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 13:41:59 -0700 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:34 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > Picked up a board advertised as a "4mb memory board" for a VAX-11/750. > It's made by Dataram and I'm unsure of the model number, based on photos of > it. I just noticed that rather than being a hex-height board that goes in > the memory backplane, it looks like a board that goes in the main CMI > backplane. It also appears to have 16mb of ECC memory on it, rather than > 4mb. > > My thought is either (1) it's not actually for an 11/750 (in which case > I'm curious what it would go into), or (2) it completely replaces the > memory controller and standard memory and gives you 16mb in the 750. (Or > it could be that it's something else entirely.) > > If anyone has any ideas or has a source of information, let me know. I > put up a few pictures here: > > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/dataram/ > > Thanks as always, > - Josh > I think I may have answered my own question here; looks like it's for a VAX 8000 series: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/VAX_8000 - Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 15:53:57 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 16:53:57 -0400 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:42 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:34 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > > Picked up a board advertised as a "4mb memory board" for a VAX-11/750... > > I think I may have answered my own question here; looks like it's for a VAX > 8000 series: That makes more sense than a board that replaces the memory controller. IIRC, the 11/750 has an architectural limit of 14MB of RAM, but that might just be because of 8 memory slots (individual select lines), the implementation of the L0016 memory controller, and that's what you can hit with 2X 4MB boards + 6X 1MB boards. I _think_ if you could have gone to 16MB of RAM, DEC might have made a memory controller that could control 3X 4MB boards + 4x 1MB boards or 4X 4MB boards, but they did not. I installed the extra memory line wire on the backplane of our 2MB 11/750 (and installed the L0011), but we never made that final jump from L0011 -> L0016. By the time that was available, we weren't going to spend that kind of money on that machine. It still has 8MB to this day. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:10:45 2020 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:10:45 -0700 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:42 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > I think I may have answered my own question here; looks like it's for a VAX > 8000 series: > > https://www.wikiwand.com/en/VAX_8000 > > Obviously now you need to pick up a VAX 8000 system. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jul 16 16:38:23 2020 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 14:38:23 -0700 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 2:11 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:42 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I think I may have answered my own question here; looks like it's for a > VAX > > 8000 series: > > > > https://www.wikiwand.com/en/VAX_8000 > > < > https://www.wikiwand.com/en/VAX_8000?fbclid=IwAR3QoE8s_7NE3ILHqMIuxGHJ4m_qR_TXn_J5jrczGVtbD8sPY8tWvhPjSzw > > > > > > Obviously now you need to pick up a VAX 8000 system. > That does seem to be the most logical next step, yes :). - Josh From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 16 17:12:13 2020 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 23:12:13 +0100 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 16/07/2020 22:38, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 2:11 PM Glen Slick via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> Obviously now you need to pick up a VAX 8000 system. >> > That does seem to be the most logical next step, yes :). > > - Josh I think I have a load board for one somewhere ... No idea how I got it, but if you end with with a VAX 8000 before I do, let me know and we can cut a deal :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From djg at pdp8online.com Thu Jul 16 21:05:58 2020 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Thu, 16 Jul 2020 22:05:58 -0400 Subject: Getting files off a 7300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20200717020558.GA21721@hugin3> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 06:12:34PM -0400, Chris Zach wrote: > Anyone know the best way to get files off an AT&T 7300/3B1 computer? This > one has a lot of Perq stuff in a directory as well as hilarious things you > can do with RP06 disk platters (ah, when we were young...) > You may have finished by now but since I have done that reasonably recently I though I would document what I did/found. Probably the best way was the serial already discussed since you can start it running and let it run without needing to interact. I used kermit. Copy here http://unixpc.taronga.com/csvax/ Kermit setting I used on Linux set line /dev/ttyUSB2 set speed 9600 set send packet-length 1000 set file names literal SET CARRIER-WATCH OFF kermit settings I used on 3b1 set window 3 set receive packet-length 1000 set file names literal set file type binary I had enabled login on the serial port and had logged in so didn't need the set line. You have the floppy drive. The normal 3b1 format is 8 or 10 sectors but it can with the proper software read & write DOS disks. Later versions of the OS came with msdos command to read floppies and md_write and md_format. You probably want to use them to install mtools which are nicer for using msdos floppies. Binaries in above directory. /dev/fp021 is floppy first partition, /dev/fp020 is full disk Also found this page on transfering files that gives another method. https://rhodesmill.org/brandon/notes/unixpc/transfer.html If you have a floppy or hard drive image such as from my emulator there are tools to work with them. https://github.com/dgesswein/s4-3b1-pc7300 Since mounting was done as Linux kernel driver its going to be work to get it to build on current Linux. I have a fedora core 20 system I keep around that the driver works with. > It does have an AUI Ethernet port on the back, but doesn't appear to have > TCP/IP installed. Maybe I can install TCP and find my old Synoptics 10bt to > AUI adapter? > Never had access to a machine with Ethernet so can't help. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jul 17 06:48:46 2020 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 13:48:46 +0200 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> Message-ID: <20200717114846.GA11042@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 01:09:21PM -0700, Ali via cctalk wrote: [Hardware RAID controllers] >> There is no good use case for them in 2020, which is why they're all >> suddenly quite cheap. > Why do you say that? Not disagreeing per se but just wondering the reasoning > behind it. On the "no good use case" front: I avoid hardware RAID controllers for a variety of reasons, which mostly boil down to the use of proprietary firmware and na?ve RAID implementations. These also apply to many software RAID implementations which blindly copied them. The biggie is that proprietary RAID means proprietary on-disk formats. If the controller fails, you need to find a replacement which understands the old on-disk format. Good luck with that. Related is the generally shoddy nature of firmware, and it's usually hard-to-impossible to e.g. query the SMART status of individual disks. The next-biggie is the RAID Write Hole. A traditional RAID implementation will rewrite data you might consider to be at rest because it shares a stripe with newly-written data, and on failure can corrupt said at-rest data. This is a fundamental problem which hardware RAID controllers try to mitigate by having a battery backup unit to deal with power failures, and can (potentially) also work independently of an OS which crashed mid-write, but it doesn't really solve it. What if your power stays out longer than the battery lasts? Software RAID which implements traditional RAID cannot even apply this mitigation and this is one of the reasons it has a bad reputation. The obvious solution is to not implement tradional RAID, which is where ZFS and similar copy-on-write journalled filesystem-cum-volume-managers come in. The last bastion of hardware RAID controllers was if one was using a toy operating system such as Windows where the software RAID options were woeful or nonexistent, but it now has Storage Spaces. On the "suddenly quite cheap" front: Plain SAS controllers based on e.g. the LSI 9207 or 9211 are north of ?100, whereas MegaRAID controllers based on the LSI 9260 have plummeted to ?30. The former either supports pass-through mode out of the box or after reflashing with "IT" firmware, but the latter does not. ZFS does work atop RAID (of either flavour), but is more robust if it can manage the raw disks directly. A workaround with hardware RAID cards which won't do pass-through is to configure them with single-disk RAID0 volumes, but this is somewhat untidy and still has the problem of proprietary on-disk formats and general inscrutability. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 13:38:49 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:38:49 -0600 Subject: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <005801d65b9c$0310d970$09328c50$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> <3a302932-f061-87f1-00e3-aa10a1add447@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005801d65b9c$0310d970$09328c50$@net> Message-ID: <53725edb-656f-3965-f41e-cc3335d1a32e@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/16/20 12:07 PM, Ali wrote: > MS LanMan was Microsoft's networking OS of choice before NT. The base > OS I believe was based on MS OS/2 1.31. Hum. I'm trying to discern if it was it's own independent OS, or if it was more a package of a COTS OS (OS/2) and LAN Man package, like Back Office / Small Business Server are Windows Server OS and packages. > Wiki has some more info: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LAN_Manager > > I have a copy of it somewhere. Here is a picture of the package: > 3.bp.blogspot.com/-KaapV596wY0/WLSlOaIjSJI/AAAAAAAAAdU/VNNQtD-iqjs7ZkvuQGqD7-vP0vmFbQfUwCLcB/s1600/s-l300.jpg Hum. Now I want to find a copy of it to mess with to see what exactly it is. I really thought it was a product on top of a COTS OS. Thank you for enlightening me Ali. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 13:54:35 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 12:54:35 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> Message-ID: On 7/16/20 11:58 AM, Ali wrote: > Absolutely correct. Proof reading good ;)! It was RAID 1. I'm guessing that the cosmic ray flipped the bit in transit to the mailing list server. :-D > Interesting. Is there an official RAID level for three drive parity? I'm not aware of one. But my ignorance thereof does not preclude it from existing. > True. That is one of the points the article makes too. Basically, > you can't get the data fast enough but that would be inherent in both > SW and HW implementations. The only way to overcome that is to use > SSDs I would think. It's the same problem. It's just that the speed limit / goal post has been moved further out, hopefully in front of the choke point. > That is nice. I may have to look at it next time I do a RAID > implementation. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 17 13:58:18 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:58:18 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> Message-ID: > On Jul 17, 2020, at 2:54 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > .. >> Interesting. Is there an official RAID level for three drive parity? > > I'm not aware of one. But my ignorance thereof does not preclude it from existing. What is "three drive parity"? "Parity" is the description of RAID-5, and 3 drive RAID-5 is certainly perfectly standard. RAID-1 is not parity, it's mirroring. Is the question about triple mirroring, i.e., 3 drives all having the same data on them? That's pretty rare though not unheard of, I've never seen a RAID-x designation for that. For high availability, RAID-6 is much more economical (and at this point the standard choice); triple mirroring is of that class, with the difference that it performs better for random short writes. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 15:19:13 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:19:13 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> Message-ID: <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 12:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > What is "three drive parity"? A poor choice of words in a complex topic. How about "three drives worth of redundancy" Meaning that your data will still be accessible if three drives fail. ZFS has three versions of ZRAID or RAID-Z. - RAID-Z1 is analogous to RAID-5. - RAID-Z2 is analogous to RAID-6. - RAID-Z3 is analogous to ??? I'm not aware of any official definition of a mirror of more than two drives. I've heard of "3-way" / "4-way" / "n-way" mirrors. I think that the industry has settled on RAID-10 / RAID-01 and possibly RAID-11 / maybe even RAID-00. But that isn't a standard to me. Further, I see disagreements of what is the strip and what is the mirror in RAID-10 / RAID-01. > "Parity" is the description of RAID-5, and 3 drive RAID-5 is certainly > perfectly standard. RAID-1 is not parity, it's mirroring. If you think of it as "redundant drives" or "number of drives that can fail without destroying data", then yes, RAID-1 does have a numerical value quite similar to RAID-3 / RAID-5 / RAID-6 / RAID-Z* / etc.. Though nomenclature becomes highly problematic. > Is the question about triple mirroring, i.e., 3 drives all having > the same data on them? I was stating that I'm not aware of an official RAID level designation for ZFS's RAID-Z3. > That's pretty rare though not unheard of, I've never seen a RAID-x > designation for that. I've known more than a few people to use n-way mirrors (~RAID-1). Though I think I've only seen it in software. > For high availability, RAID-6 is much more economical (and at this > point the standard choice); triple mirroring is of that class, with > the difference that it performs better for random short writes. Are you comparing RAID-6 to triple (3-way) mirroring? Or something else? I think that things get really weird and deep in minutia when you start comparing a 3-way mirror to a 3 drive RAID-6. Same number of drives (3), and same capacity (1 drive worth), and same fault tolerance (2 drive failures). One of the other things that I've thus far neglected to mention about ZFS is it's abilities to take snapshots and then subsequently send & receive said snapshots* between pools / tape / image files. These are some things that I think are nigh impossible to do with typical traditional hardware RAID controllers. Sure, you might be able to do it with systems that fall into the broad category of a higher end RAID controller, but that is more typically a SAN controller which is effectively it's own microcosm. * You can also send / receive unmounted file systems** in addition to snapshots of file systems. ** You can do similar with a zDevice, which is a logical block device created by the ZFS pool. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Jul 17 15:30:29 2020 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:30:29 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 7/17/2020 2:19 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/17/20 12:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> What is "three drive parity"? > > A poor choice of words in a complex topic. > > How about "three drives worth of redundancy"? Meaning that your data > will still be accessible if three drives fail. Does modern software even let you know if a drive is failing? Ben. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 15:36:21 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 14:36:21 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 2:30 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Does modern software even let you know if a drive is failing? I'm not aware of any software RAID solution jumping up and proactively notifying you that there's a problem /by/ /default/. But I think the same thing is largely true about hardware RAID solutions. The only caveat being an alarm that might sound on a hardware RAID solution. But that assumes that someone is in proximity to hear it. All hardware and software RAID solutions that I've worked with do expose the information. They all also have software that can be used to check and then take some action to notify people. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 17 15:39:12 2020 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:39:12 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <97347166-CC09-4C06-BAE0-436041D196A8@comcast.net> > On Jul 17, 2020, at 4:19 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 7/17/20 12:58 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> What is "three drive parity"? > > A poor choice of words in a complex topic. > > How about "three drives worth of redundancy" Meaning that your data will still be accessible if three drives fail. > > ZFS has three versions of ZRAID or RAID-Z. > > - RAID-Z1 is analogous to RAID-5. > - RAID-Z2 is analogous to RAID-6. > - RAID-Z3 is analogous to ??? > > I'm not aware of any official definition of a mirror of more than two drives. I've heard of "3-way" / "4-way" / "n-way" mirrors. > > I think that the industry has settled on RAID-10 / RAID-01 and possibly RAID-11 / maybe even RAID-00. But that isn't a standard to me. > > Further, I see disagreements of what is the strip and what is the mirror in RAID-10 / RAID-01. > >> "Parity" is the description of RAID-5, and 3 drive RAID-5 is certainly perfectly standard. RAID-1 is not parity, it's mirroring. > > If you think of it as "redundant drives" or "number of drives that can fail without destroying data", then yes, RAID-1 does have a numerical value quite similar to RAID-3 / RAID-5 / RAID-6 / RAID-Z* / etc.. Though nomenclature becomes highly problematic. Yes. Marketeers like to use the phrase "erasure coding" as a magic token to indicate great wonderfulness beyond RAID. Actually, it's a math term that describes the standard RAID systems plus generalizations. I don't know if there is a clear terminology for the general thing. I tend to call them "k of n" codes, k data bits, n message bits. Or in the RAID case, k drives worth of data, n total drives. That makes RAID-1 a 1 of 2 erasure code, the thing we started talking about 1 of 3 erasure code, RAID-5 is n of n+1 erasure code, and RAID-6 is n of n+2 erasure code. So in the k of n notation, n-k drives can fail before you lose your data. Actually, more realistic with today's drive sizes: n-k-1 drives can fail and one drive can have a hard read error during reconstruction before you lose data. For sufficiently large drives, the probability of a hard read error somewhere is nearly 1, which is why RAID-5 is only a good idea for small disk drives. People have build storage systems with other erasure codes, for example n of n+3. Not because it's really necessary but as a research experiment; the "Self-star" system at CMU comes to mind. >> Is the question about triple mirroring, i.e., 3 drives all having the same data on them? > > I was stating that I'm not aware of an official RAID level designation for ZFS's RAID-Z3. > >> That's pretty rare though not unheard of, I've never seen a RAID-x designation for that. > > I've known more than a few people to use n-way mirrors (~RAID-1). Though I think I've only seen it in software. > >> For high availability, RAID-6 is much more economical (and at this point the standard choice); triple mirroring is of that class, with the difference that it performs better for random short writes. > > Are you comparing RAID-6 to triple (3-way) mirroring? Or something else? > > I think that things get really weird and deep in minutia when you start comparing a 3-way mirror to a 3 drive RAID-6. Same number of drives (3), and same capacity (1 drive worth), and same fault tolerance (2 drive failures). Yes. The difference is that the 3 drives in a 3-drive RAID-6 system aren't copies, so the write and reconstruction logic is more complex. But actually I meant RAID-6 generally. As I mentioned above, in RAID-5 if you lose a drive, you have no redundancy, which means that if you encounter a hard read error during reconstruction you've lost that stripe. And for today's large drive chances are that will happen. With RAID-6, if one drive fails you can still recover from hard read errors. If you run the statistical analysis with typical drive MTBF and hard read error rates, you'll find that the read error during reconstruction is the major contributor to data loss, not the "too many drives failed at the same time" scenario. At least not if the drive chassis is built correctly and the power source and other environmental parameters are reasonably clean. paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 15:42:16 2020 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 17:42:16 -0300 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 2020-07-17 5:36 p.m., Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/17/20 2:30 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Does modern software even let you know if a drive is failing? > > I'm not aware of any software RAID solution jumping up and proactively > notifying you that there's a problem /by/ /default/. > > But I think the same thing is largely true about hardware RAID > solutions.? The only caveat being an alarm that might sound on a > hardware RAID solution.? But that assumes that someone is in proximity > to hear it. > > All hardware and software RAID solutions that I've worked with do > expose the information.? They all also have software that can be used > to check and then take some action to notify people. > > > I had a disk that went over a SMART threshold that was part of a mdadm software mirror and it posted a message every time I rebooted warning of impending doom. The systems I support professionally do try to warn the admins, but it seems that frequently no notice is taken until the level of redundancy is exceeded at which time the issue becomes more difficult to ignore, and then begins the waling and gnashing of teeth...... Paul. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 16:04:42 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:04:42 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9a3efa80-37a5-f895-82f7-cae7186e3343@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 2:42 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I had a disk that went over a SMART threshold that was part of a mdadm > software mirror and it posted a message every time I rebooted warning of > impending doom. That sounds like the typical S.M.A.R.T. alert from the BIOS. Not something from the kernel. If it was the kernel, I'd like to know more about it. > The systems I support professionally do try to warn the admins, but it > seems that frequently no notice is taken until the level of redundancy > is exceeded at which time the issue becomes more difficult to ignore, > and then begins the waling and gnashing of teeth...... Yep. I suspect many, if not most, of us have been in that teeth gnashing situation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 16:18:11 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 15:18:11 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <97347166-CC09-4C06-BAE0-436041D196A8@comcast.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <97347166-CC09-4C06-BAE0-436041D196A8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <154c6454-d1ef-fae7-695b-6d5640d92c72@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 2:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > "too many drives failed at the same time" IMHO, this encompases hard read errors. For what ever reason, the drive was not able to priovide the data within a reasonable time period. Be it physical drive failure, hard read error rate, or someone disconnecting the drive. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jul 17 17:33:07 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 18:33:07 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <9a3efa80-37a5-f895-82f7-cae7186e3343@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <9a3efa80-37a5-f895-82f7-cae7186e3343@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Oh yeah. I remember having a DS4300 that had a failed drive and when we tried to rebuild it corrupted the whole string. Call to IBM ensued where they had us disable one controller, then the other controller was able to rebuild the array, then we brought the first controller back in sync. Tricky.... C On 7/17/2020 5:04 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 7/17/20 2:42 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> I had a disk that went over a SMART threshold that was part of a mdadm >> software mirror and it posted a message every time I rebooted warning >> of impending doom. > > That sounds like the typical S.M.A.R.T. alert from the BIOS.? Not > something from the kernel.? If it was the kernel, I'd like to know more > about it. > >> The systems I support professionally do try to warn the admins, but it >> seems that frequently no notice is taken until the level of redundancy >> is exceeded at which time the issue becomes more difficult to ignore, >> and then begins the waling and gnashing of teeth...... > > Yep.? I suspect many, if not most, of us have been in that teeth > gnashing situation. > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 17:58:20 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 16:58:20 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <9a3efa80-37a5-f895-82f7-cae7186e3343@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <297d2e37-4d4e-b3dd-a9d2-3a7f293b05dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 4:33 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > Oh yeah. I remember having a DS4300 that had a failed drive and when we > tried to rebuild it corrupted the whole string. Call to IBM ensued where > they had us disable one controller, then the other controller was able > to rebuild the array, then we brought the first controller back in sync. > Tricky.... Yep. If I'm going to be dealing with that type of oddness, I'd rather do it on my preferred OS of choice than something embedded that I don't have much experience with. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cz at alembic.crystel.com Fri Jul 17 18:24:00 2020 From: cz at alembic.crystel.com (Chris Zach) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 19:24:00 -0400 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <297d2e37-4d4e-b3dd-a9d2-3a7f293b05dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3030ad45-cd84-7c72-4b9f-d77b0132efdb@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <9a3efa80-37a5-f895-82f7-cae7186e3343@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <297d2e37-4d4e-b3dd-a9d2-3a7f293b05dc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <395f1f68-b208-38f8-fd52-6c0c78fd6301@alembic.crystel.com> On 7/17/2020 6:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > If I'm going to be dealing with that type of oddness, I'd rather do it > on my preferred OS of choice than something embedded that I don't have > much experience with. On the other hand I never lost any data on my IBM DS4300 or 4700 SANs. The tech support was excellent and we beat the hell out of those things. Then again I never had a problem at all with Compaq SMART arrays. The key was to have the SMART software installed and running. > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 17 23:08:12 2020 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 17 Jul 2020 22:08:12 -0600 Subject: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <3F5A864C-314C-4397-8C83-6C5EAA593329@comcast.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <005201d65b89$154ad040$3fe070c0$@net> <746504b9-b2e4-a7a9-3c6b-c125e6304e21@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005701d65b9a$b3420d70$19c62850$@net> <15a7da34-7524-867b-5fe8-c51ce92379b1@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <97347166-CC09-4C06-BAE0-436041D196A8@comcast.net> <154c6454-d1ef-fae7-695b-6d5640d92c72@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <3F5A864C-314C-4397-8C83-6C5EAA593329@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9aa3bedd-764a-a2b5-4b25-052810df7f6f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/17/20 7:07 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Yes, if you define it that way then clearly I agree. The thing is > that in most people's definition, "drive failure" means "the drive > is a door stop". Ya.... I've had too many "but the drive isn't a brick ... how could it be the failure" experiences to use that as my benchmark. Now, if the drive is not doing what it's supposed to do in any (reproducible) manner, I consider it a failure. Well ... almost any reproducible manner. > And in fact, hard read errors are normal. Every drive has a spec for > the probability of that happening, and given the per-sector failure > probability and the sector count, the probability of SOME sector > failing to read when you read the whole drive is nowadays somewhere > around 1. Ya. That's where the reproducibility of any given failure comes into play. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jul 17 23:46:25 2020 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 00:46:25 -0400 Subject: Help identifying mystery Dataram VAX-11/750 (?) board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 5:11 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 1:42 PM Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I think I may have answered my own question here; looks like it's for a VAX > > 8000 series: > > > > https://www.wikiwand.com/en/VAX_8000 > > > > Obviously now you need to pick up a VAX 8000 system. One with an NMI bus, naturally. The low-end 8000s are pure VAXBI (I have an 8300). I'm sad I had to abandon a VAX 8530 when Software Results closed down in 1993. It was a bit large for home use, and I was never going to have 3-phase power for it. AFAIK, it got left for our landlord to dispose/sell off. We only paid $5000 for it a year earlier (nobody wanted them in the early 90s) so it's unlikely he found a quick buyer. -ethan From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sat Jul 18 07:21:36 2020 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 13:21:36 +0100 Subject: Sun E250, NVRAM edit? (Serial Speeds, no console, etc) References: Message-ID: Hi Ethan In theory console can be set to anything but its usually 9600/8/n/1 as I?m sure you?ve tried. On some suns unplugging the serial cable is the equivalent of sending a break, so might be worth a try? Suns do require full hardware signalling on the console connection so might be worth checking. From cube1 at charter.net Sat Jul 18 15:03:33 2020 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 15:03:33 -0500 Subject: When is a capacitor not JUST a capacitor (i.e., not just a filter or part of a resonant circuit) Message-ID: <907eb2da-f05a-281e-6cf5-74ccd67c9b70@charter.net> (And not acting as part of a resonant circuit) Answer: When it is acting like a little delay line. https://www.computercollection.net/index.php/2020/07/18/q-when-is-a-capacitor-not-just-a-capacitor/ From kgober at gmail.com Sat Jul 18 16:31:14 2020 From: kgober at gmail.com (Kenneth Gober) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 17:31:14 -0400 Subject: System Pro WAS RE: Compaq Smart Array 3200 Controller as a SCSI Controller In-Reply-To: <53725edb-656f-3965-f41e-cc3335d1a32e@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> References: <007301d65a06$ce474850$6ad5d8f0$@net> <20200715081642.GA1670@mooli.org.uk> <008401d65ae3$d50e5290$7f2af7b0$@net> <3908f17e-d018-950b-2057-27a8b96f6e33@alembic.crystel.com> <004b01d65b87$7b777ff0$72667fd0$@net> <3a302932-f061-87f1-00e3-aa10a1add447@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> <005801d65b9c$0310d970$09328c50$@net> <53725edb-656f-3965-f41e-cc3335d1a32e@gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 2:38 PM Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 7/16/20 12:07 PM, Ali wrote: > > MS LanMan was Microsoft's networking OS of choice before NT. The base > > OS I believe was based on MS OS/2 1.31. > > I'm trying to discern if it was it's own independent OS, or if it was > more a package of a COTS OS (OS/2) and LAN Man package, like Back Office > / Small Business Server are Windows Server OS and packages. > I believe that "OS/2 LAN Server" was part of "OS/2 1.3 Extended Edition". Extended Edition also included some kind of SNA gateway, iirc, and probably other things I have zero recollection of. The product had a notion of "domains" at this point, although I don't know if this was a new feature introduced with the OS/2 version or if previous products already had it. -ken From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jul 19 00:42:59 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:42:59 -0700 Subject: Motorola 12Xbug? Message-ID: <207DF41B-F5FD-4EB3-976D-453914DB4390@eschatologist.net> Does anyone know where to find Motorola 120bug or 12Xbug? I have an MVME121 but it has a third party ROM, not the typical Motorola boot ROM. (The 12Xbug manual would be handy too, of course.) -- Chris From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Jul 19 00:43:18 2020 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 18 Jul 2020 22:43:18 -0700 Subject: MVME225 documentation Message-ID: Does anyone have MVME225 documentation? I have one of these boards now and no docs for how to set the addressing jumpers/switches. -- Chris