From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Mar 1 09:52:00 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 10:52:00 -0500 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in > the power supply that I can use to order parts? I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. -ethan From rich at ourowndomain.com Fri Mar 1 12:50:08 2019 From: rich at ourowndomain.com (Rich Gopstein) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 13:50:08 -0500 Subject: Need some PDP-11 paper tapes Message-ID: I just picked up a Remex paper tape reader from eBay and will be interfacing it to my PiDP-11/Simh PDP-11 simulator shortly. I've been looking for an affordable punch, but haven't found one yet. In the meantime, does anyone know where I could get paper tapes with the absolute loader and standalone basic? I don't need originals, so if anyone has a punch and is willing to punch them for me, that would be great! I'd be happy to pay whatever is reasonable. If you have any other PDP-11 tapes too, that would be helpful. Thanks. Rich From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Mar 1 15:35:07 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 13:35:07 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for. I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power all switched off like it had been unplugged. alan > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. > > -ethan From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 1 15:44:00 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 21:44:00 +0000 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> , <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Maybe I need a little clearification. When you turn the switches off, it boots? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry via cctech Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM To: Ethan Dicks Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech > wrote: >> Hi, >> >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for. I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power all switched off like it had been unplugged. alan > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. > > -ethan From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Mar 1 15:56:43 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 13:56:43 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. The last time it responded to the power switched, components powered up and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly everything stopped like the plug had been pulled. Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. alan > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight wrote: > > Maybe I need a little clearification. > When you turn the switches off, it boots? > Dwight > > > From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry via cctech > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM > To: Ethan Dicks > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list > > > > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > >> Hi, > >> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps > > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. > > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for. > > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power all switched off like it had been unplugged. > > alan > > > > > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. > > > > -ethan > From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri Mar 1 16:13:31 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 14:13:31 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> I will look at that when I get back home after the weekend. > On Mar 1, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. >> >> The last time it responded to the power switched, components powered up and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly everything stopped like the plug had been pulled. >> >> Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. > > The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs while booting... Do any of them light up? > > Warner > >> alan >> >> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight wrote: >> > >> > Maybe I need a little clearification. >> > When you turn the switches off, it boots? >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry via cctech >> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM >> > To: Ethan Dicks >> > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: >> > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech >> > > wrote: >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >> > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used in >> > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? >> > > >> > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but >> > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps >> > > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a >> > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. >> > >> > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for. >> > >> > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power all switched off like it had been unplugged. >> > >> > alan >> > >> > >> > > >> > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. >> > > >> > > -ethan >> > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 1 16:01:45 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 15:01:45 -0700 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. > > The last time it responded to the power switched, components powered up > and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly everything stopped like the > plug had been pulled. > > Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. > The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs while booting... Do any of them light up? Warner > alan > > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight wrote: > > > > Maybe I need a little clearification. > > When you turn the switches off, it boots? > > Dwight > > > > > > From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry > via cctech > > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM > > To: Ethan Dicks > > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list > > > > > > > > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech > > > wrote: > > >> Hi, > > >> > > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does > > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used > in > > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > > > > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but > > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps > > > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a > > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. > > > > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look > for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen > for. > > > > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran > it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t > use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was > testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power > all switched off like it had been unplugged. > > > > alan > > > > > > > > > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. > > > > > > -ethan > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Mar 1 16:32:43 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 1 Mar 2019 15:32:43 -0700 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Since you don't hear the gears grinding in the rx-50, that's a failure fairly early on. The LEDs in the back of the case will tell you something. There's a table for LED codes in the Rainbow manuals somewhere. If NO LEDs are on, that tells you something too (they all light up on application of power). I've had my rainbow for 30 years, and haven't had to deal with bad caps in the power supply, but I've also gone as long as a decade with the Rainbow in a box... And now I have 4 of them (2As and 2Bs).... Warner On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 3:13 PM Alan Perry wrote: > I will look at that when I get back home after the weekend. > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. >> >> The last time it responded to the power switched, components powered up >> and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly everything stopped like the >> plug had been pulled. >> >> Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. >> > > The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs while > booting... Do any of them light up? > > Warner > > >> alan >> >> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight wrote: >> > >> > Maybe I need a little clearification. >> > When you turn the switches off, it boots? >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry >> via cctech >> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM >> > To: Ethan Dicks >> > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks >> wrote: >> > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech >> > > wrote: >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >> > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors >> used in >> > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? >> > > >> > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but >> > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps >> > > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a >> > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. >> > >> > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look >> for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen >> for. >> > >> > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I ran >> it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t >> use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was >> testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power >> all switched off like it had been unplugged. >> > >> > alan >> > >> > >> > > >> > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. >> > > >> > > -ethan >> > >> > From silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com Sat Mar 2 11:03:52 2019 From: silvercreekvalley at yahoo.com (silvercreekvalley) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 17:03:52 +0000 Subject: UK: FF : 2 x Sun Enterprise M4000 Message-ID: <9771963A-5B88-4AD5-BA6B-6544996B18BE@yahoo.com> Hi all I have a couple of near identical Sun Enterprise M4000 servers fitted with SPARC64 VI 2.1GHz CPUs, 16GB and I think 2 x 146GB disks. I *think* these are working but have never powered them up. I purchased them surplus a year or so ago. Available free of charge to any Sun fans - these are collection only sorry. I?m not too far from Cambridge location wise in the UK. PM me if interested. First come first served. Thanks Ian From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Mar 2 14:01:57 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 14:01:57 -0600 Subject: HP logic analyzer QFP132 interposer and DSD-4140 microcode ROMs Message-ID: <40f5a132-1c76-4b35-3e04-70876f8fafdf@illinois.edu> Hello everyone, I've got two unrelated things I'm looking for: The first is an HP logic analyzer interposer for the emulation adapter for an MC68332. This would have a PGA socket on it, and sort of a reverse socket for the QFP132 package (attaches to a chip from the top, to interface to a chip soldered onto a board). I believe the part number would be HP E3417A. I already have the QFP160 adapter, but the chip I want to interface to is a QFP132. This adapter supposedly exists, but I've had no luck trying to find it through the usual channels. The second that I'm looking for, is if there's someone out there that owns and can dump the microcode ROMs from a DSD-4140 QBUS floppy controller. We've got a card here that's missing one of the ROMs, and we're also not sure if the ROMs are mixed up, so a dump of all 4 ROMs would be appreciated. They are 82S181, but they should read in any EPROM burner with a breadboard and some wiring to adapt the pinout. Burning them is another story, but we'll worry about that later... Here's a picture of the card in question: https://i.imgur.com/tzYjPYF.jpg And if anyone has one of these and is kind enough to dump it for us, there's also an 82S137 on the card that probably deserves a dump as well. Thanks, Joe Zatarski From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Mar 2 14:02:22 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 14:02:22 -0600 Subject: KA650 VAX memory error Message-ID: <0413b5f6-1015-9223-692f-bc5a0dc6eea1@illinois.edu> Hello Everyone, I've got a KA650 with a MS650-AA 8MB memory module. When we initially started messing with this VAX, it was giving a memory error. We were able to track down first the bad bank, and later the individual bad ZIP RAMs with the help of my logic analyzer. For now, I kludged an SOJ DRAM in there that seems to be working without issue. The machine no longer gives memory errors during POST, but if you run one of the more thorough memory tests like #48 (MEM_Addr_shrts), it fails. My initial thought was that this RAM test checks for shorted address lines, which would cause writing to one location to change another location perhaps. However, I haven't been able to replicate the error with DEPOSITs and EXAMINEs on the console. Without having to disassemble the VAX ROM, does anybody know what this test does? Once I know what I'm looking for, I can probably convince the logic analyzer to see the error with some fancy triggering, and get this board 100% fixed before I order some ZIP DRAMs. On a somewhat related note, I don't suppose anybody knows or has documentation on the pinout of the C/D interconnect on these RAM boards? The pinout for the ribbon cable is in the manual, but the C/D interconnect doesn't seem to be documented in any of the manuals that are online. With the price of MS650's these days, it seems like the cheaper route (albeit more work) is to build a new RAM board rather than buy one (especially if a single 64MB board could be made). I suspect it's not too complex anyway, and it can probably mostly be traced out, and the rest inferred and then verified with a logic analyzer. Thanks, Joe Zatarski From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Mar 2 13:54:38 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 13:54:38 -0600 Subject: Hayes Smartmodem 1200 firmware dumped: In-Reply-To: <49143ae7-6550-4ba2-6c2c-1aa8862825c8@illinois.edu> References: <49143ae7-6550-4ba2-6c2c-1aa8862825c8@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Hello again Everyone, Last night my roommate and I worked on dumping the Hayes Smartmodem 1200 firmware so that we could attempt a repair on another modem. This other modem had a dead EPROM, a dead ROMless Z8, a dead CD4069, and a dead 'SR0075' (custom marked Hayes part with Zilog logo on it). As it turns out, the SR0075 is a Z8 with 2kB of mask ROM. Attempts to read it like an OTP/EPROM part did not work, however were were able to put it in test mode, as detailed on page 363 of http://www.textfiles.com/bitsavers/pdf/zilog/z8/Z8_Family_Design_Handbook_Jun88.pdf By doing so, we were able to execute some simple code which read every byte of the internal ROM and dumped it to memory address 0xAAAA, which we then recorded with a logic analyzer to create the dump of this Z8. The files are attached to this email, and it'd be nice if they were archived somewhere. Maybe somewhere in bitsavers, if Al could help us out with this. One file is the internal Z8 ROM, and the other is the 2764 that goes with the ROMless Z8. Best Regards, Joe Zatarki From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 15:16:51 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 13:16:51 -0800 Subject: KA650 VAX memory error In-Reply-To: <0413b5f6-1015-9223-692f-bc5a0dc6eea1@illinois.edu> References: <0413b5f6-1015-9223-692f-bc5a0dc6eea1@illinois.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 12:02 PM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > > On a somewhat related note, I don't suppose anybody knows or has > documentation on the pinout of the C/D interconnect on these RAM boards? > The pinout for the ribbon cable is in the manual, but the C/D > interconnect doesn't seem to be documented in any of the manuals that > are online. 650QS Field Maintenance Print Set, MP-02538-01, Rev C1 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/650/MP02538_650QS_Sep88.pdf Page 65 of the PDF, KA650 Circuit Schematics Page 23 of 40 MA0 - MA9 CAS0 - CAS3 RAS0 - RAS3 WE SE XADDR20, XADDR21 +5 GND Page 47 of the PDF, Page 5 of 40 is an overview block diagram of those signals originating at the DC357 CMCTL Memory System Controller. From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Mar 2 15:25:50 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 15:25:50 -0600 Subject: KA650 VAX memory error Message-ID: <529ce35e-f1e7-2f02-ee23-e4998acf40d3@illinois.edu> On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 3:16 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 12:02 PM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk >> wrote: >>//>>/On a somewhat related note, I don't suppose anybody knows or has />>/documentation on the pinout of the C/D interconnect on these RAM boards? />>/The pinout for the ribbon cable is in the manual, but the C/D />>/interconnect doesn't seem to be documented in any of the manuals that />>/are online. /> >650QS Field Maintenance Print Set, MP-02538-01, Rev C1 >http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/650/MP02538_650QS_Sep88.pdf > >Page 65 of the PDF, KA650 Circuit Schematics Page 23 of 40 >MA0 - MA9 >CAS0 - CAS3 >RAS0 - RAS3 >WE >SE >XADDR20, XADDR21 >+5 >GND > >Page 47 of the PDF, Page 5 of 40 is an overview block diagram of those >signals originating at the DC357 CMCTL Memory System Controller. OK, thanks, that's great. Now I won't have to bother tracing things out if I decide to go that route. Didn't realize there was a printset for the KA650, but I guess I didn't even bother to check. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 18:34:29 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 19:34:29 -0500 Subject: Hayes Smartmodem 1200 firmware dumped: In-Reply-To: References: <49143ae7-6550-4ba2-6c2c-1aa8862825c8@illinois.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 4:16 PM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > The files are attached to this email... They are not. This list doesn't support attachments. -ethan From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sat Mar 2 18:38:37 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 18:38:37 -0600 Subject: Hayes Smartmodem 1200 firmware dumped: In-Reply-To: References: <49143ae7-6550-4ba2-6c2c-1aa8862825c8@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <650a4954-a96d-5b1b-4d46-26bac0d5422c@illinois.edu> On 3/2/19 6:34 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Sat, Mar 2, 2019 at 4:16 PM Joseph Zatarski via cctalk > wrote: >> The files are attached to this email... > They are not. This list doesn't support attachments. > > -ethan I swear that I have gotten cctalk digests with attached files in the past, but maybe I'm misremembering. Nonetheless, the files have been hosted here by silent700: http://nocarrier.net/archive/ROMs/Hayes/ From kylevowen at gmail.com Sat Mar 2 20:25:54 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Sat, 2 Mar 2019 20:25:54 -0600 Subject: DECtalk-PC Schematic Message-ID: Hi all, I recently got one of these DECtalk-PC ISA cards from eBay ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/183684666377, no affiliation with seller other than a happy customer) and was wondering, does anyone have a schematic for this? Thanks! Kyle From marvin at west.net Sun Mar 3 11:58:25 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 09:58:25 -0800 Subject: FS: Craigslist Apple 512K Lisa Computer Message-ID: I just ran across this and while I'm not interested, someone on the list might be. https://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/d/apple-512k-lisa-computer-valuetec-2900t/6821658432.html It was posted about 14 days ago, and looks to be in Santa Barbara, CA. From ray at arachelian.com Sun Mar 3 12:35:41 2019 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 13:35:41 -0500 Subject: FS: Craigslist Apple 512K Lisa Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 03/03/19 12:58, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: > I just ran across this and while I'm not interested, someone on the > list might be. > > https://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/d/apple-512k-lisa-computer-valuetec-2900t/6821658432.html > > > It was posted about 14 days ago, and looks to be in Santa Barbara, CA. > That doesn't look like it's a Lisa, it may be a tempest hardened Mac 512. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 3 13:59:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 11:59:10 -0800 Subject: Old SunOS distributions recovered Message-ID: <0ade6b93-d549-df72-5060-f16c2ea72a2b@bitsavers.org> http://bitsavers.org/bits/Sun/SunOS 1/2" distribution tapes for 0.4 beta, 1.1, 2.0 and the 2.2 update, circa 1983-85 From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Mar 3 18:26:07 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 3 Mar 2019 16:26:07 -0800 Subject: Craigslist Apple 512K Lisa Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <904BE15A-3BAC-45C2-9558-5B3A61FCA0F4@avanthar.com> > On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:35 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: > > On 03/03/19 12:58, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >> I just ran across this and while I'm not interested, someone on the >> list might be. >> >> https://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/d/apple-512k-lisa-computer-valuetec-2900t/6821658432.html >> >> >> It was posted about 14 days ago, and looks to be in Santa Barbara, CA. >> > That doesn't look like it's a Lisa, it may be a tempest hardened Mac 512. An interesting system. Someone needs to save this. Based on the description, and the way it looks, I think you?re right about it being designed for TEMPEST hardening. There were some TEMPEST versions of the Mac II. Zane From marvin at west.net Mon Mar 4 12:40:19 2019 From: marvin at west.net (Marvin Johnston) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 10:40:19 -0800 Subject: Craigslist Apple 512K Lisa Computer Message-ID: <631c16ca-0d00-ecf8-6041-a9a26ac6e041@west.net> On the off chance that someone on the list wants it and doesn't like the idea of shipping, I'll be going to VCFMW in September and could bring it along. My route will be Santa Barbara, Las Vegas, north to I-80, and I-80 to the Chicago area. After that, I'll be headed to Pittsburgh, PA and it can be dropped off along the way. I can also head out to Goleta (basically Santa Barbara) and check out what this person has. Marvin >> On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:35 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 03/03/19 12:58, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >>> I just ran across this and while I'm not interested, someone on the >>> list might be. >>> >>> https://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/d/apple-512k-lisa-computer-valuetec-2900t/6821658432.html >>> >>> >>> It was posted about 14 days ago, and looks to be in Santa Barbara, CA. >>> >> That doesn't look like it's a Lisa, it may be a tempest hardened Mac 512. > > An interesting system. Someone needs to save this. Based on the description, and the way it looks, I think you?re right about it being designed for TEMPEST hardening. There were some TEMPEST versions of the Mac II. > > Zane From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 4 15:52:12 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 15:52:12 -0600 Subject: Need some PDP-11 paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <07973d3b-d3f0-331d-99e9-b80994b3a799@charter.net> On 3/1/2019 12:50 PM, Rich Gopstein via cctalk wrote: > I just picked up a Remex paper tape reader from eBay and will be > interfacing it to my PiDP-11/Simh PDP-11 simulator shortly. > > I've been looking for an affordable punch, but haven't found one yet. In > the meantime, does anyone know where I could get paper tapes with the > absolute loader and standalone basic? > > I don't need originals, so if anyone has a punch and is willing to punch > them for me, that would be great! I'd be happy to pay whatever is > reasonable. If you have any other PDP-11 tapes too, that would be helpful. > > Thanks. > > Rich > I have some duplicates of what you have asked for, so I could probably accommodate you. But not all that many, so they aren't free. I *believe* (but would have to double check) that these are all actual Digital paper tapes I got with various machines, which increases the price. I'd be willing to let them go for $20 each: feel free to pick and choose. If I have any that are just copies and not originals, those I would let go for $5 each. Plus shipping (they ought to all fit in one small flat-rate box, assuming you are in the US). If others can punch copies for you, so much the better. (I have punches that worked when I first got them, but they need work. Same goes for my readers, unfortunately). Some of the items below (PAL, EDT, LINK) might be pretty useless without a paper tape punch. ;) I have a few others (IOX). I have FPP (floating point package) - but no duplicates. See http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-XPTSA-B-D%20PDP-11%20Paper%20Tape%20Software%20Handbook.pdf (Surprised that wasn't on the CHM bitsavers site...) JRJ KIND ID MACHINE CONTENTS COMMENT Checksum Checksum 2 FILENAME MFG SERIAL TRAY DATE AVAILABILI ERRORS PREVIOUS_C BASIC V007A PT DEC-11-AJPB-PB PDP-11 PDP-11 BASIC V007A SA=16104 RA=0 Digital 55 11/5/1970 BASIC V008A PT DEC-11-LBSUA-A-PB PDP-11 BASIC.LDA V008A SINGLE USER BASIC REPLACES: DEC-11-AJPB-PB Digital 44 12/1/1972 Absolute loader PT DEC-11-UABLA-A-PO PDP-11 PDP-11 ABSOLUTE LOADER REPLACES: DEC-11-L2PC-P0 uabla-a.rim Digital 62 5/5/1977 Absolute loader (no switch register) PT DEC-11-UABLB-A-PO PDP-11 ABSOLUTE LOADER VB07.00 NON-SWITCH REGISTER VERSION Digital 36 12/5/1975 PAL-11A V007A PT DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PB PDP-11 PAL-11A.LDA V007A REPLACES: DEC-11-ASXB-PB SA=1516 RA=1516 Digital 39 11/3/1975 PAL-11S V003A PT DEC-11-UPLSA-A-PL PDP-11 PAL-11S.LDA V003A REPLACES: DEC-11-ASQA-PL SA=2066 RA=2066 Digital 42 12/1/1972 EDIT-11 V005A PT DEC-11-UEDPA-A-PB PDP-11 ED-11 V005A REPLACES: DEC-11-E1PA-PB Digital 39 11/10/1975 LINK-11S V002A (SA 22714) PT DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PL PDP-11 LINK-11S.LDA V002A REPLACES: DEC-11-ZLQA-PL Digital 41 12/1/1972 ODT-11 V005A PT DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB PDP-11 ODT-11.LDA V005A RE-ENTER=13032 REPLACES: DEC-11-O1PA-PB SA=13026 RA=.30 Digital 44 12/1/1972 DUMPTT V001A PT DEC-11-Y1PA-PB PDP-11 DUMPTT V001A SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOAD ADDRESS Digital 43 11/10/1969 DUMPAB V001A PT DEC-11-Y2PA-PO PDP-11 DUMPAB V001A SA=XX7500 RA=XX7500 Digital 44 11/10/1969 From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Mar 4 15:56:13 2019 From: couryhouse at aol.com (ED SHARPE) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 21:56:13 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Need some PDP-11 paper tapes References: <388624978.9234877.1551736573053.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <388624978.9234877.1551736573053@mail.yahoo.com> I? would? love to have? focal 11 on paper? tape? too if? anyone can punch one up!? thx? ed# In a message dated 3/4/2019 2:52:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: On 3/1/2019 12:50 PM, Rich Gopstein via cctalk wrote:> I just picked up a Remex paper tape reader from eBay and will be> interfacing it to my PiDP-11/Simh PDP-11 simulator shortly.> > I've been looking for an affordable punch, but haven't found one yet.? In> the meantime, does anyone know where I could get paper tapes with the> absolute loader and standalone basic?> > I don't need originals, so if anyone has a punch and is willing to punch> them for me, that would be great!? I'd be happy to pay whatever is> reasonable.? If you have any other PDP-11 tapes too, that would be helpful.> > Thanks.> > Rich> I have some duplicates of what you have asked for, so I could probablyaccommodate you.? But not all that many, so they aren't free.? I*believe* (but would have to double check) that these are all actualDigital paper tapes I got with various machines, which increases the price. I'd be willing to let them go for $20 each: feel free to pick andchoose.? If I have any that are just copies and not originals, those Iwould let go for $5 each.? Plus shipping (they ought to all fit in onesmall flat-rate box, assuming you are in the US). If others can punch copies for you, so much the better.? (I have punchesthat worked when I first got them, but they need work.? Same goes for myreaders, unfortunately). Some of the items below (PAL, EDT, LINK) might be pretty useless withouta paper tape punch.? ;) I have a few others (IOX).? I have FPP (floating point package) - but noduplicates. Seehttp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-11-XPTSA-B-D%20PDP-11%20Paper%20Tape%20Software%20Handbook.pdf (Surprised that wasn't on the CHM bitsavers site...) JRJ KIND??? ID??? MACHINE??? CONTENTS??? COMMENT??? Checksum??? Checksum 2??? FILENAME??? MFGSERIAL??? TRAY??? DATE??? AVAILABILI??? ERRORS??? PREVIOUS_C BASIC V007A PT??? DEC-11-AJPB-PB??? PDP-11??? PDP-11 BASIC V007A??? SA=16104 RA=0??? ??? ?? Digital??? ??? 55??? 11/5/1970??? ??? ?? BASIC V008A PT??? DEC-11-LBSUA-A-PB??? PDP-11??? BASIC.LDA V008A SINGLE USER BASICREPLACES: DEC-11-AJPB-PB??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 44??? 12/1/1972??? ??? ?? Absolute loader PT??? DEC-11-UABLA-A-PO??? PDP-11??? PDP-11 ABSOLUTE LOADER??? REPLACES:DEC-11-L2PC-P0??? ??? ??? uabla-a.rim??? Digital??? ??? 62??? 5/5/1977??? ??? ?? Absolute loader (no switch register) PT??? DEC-11-UABLB-A-PO??? PDP-11??? ABSOLUTE LOADER VB07.00??? NON-SWITCHREGISTER VERSION??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 36??? 12/5/1975??? ??? ?? PAL-11A V007A PT??? DEC-11-UPLAA-A-PB??? PDP-11??? PAL-11A.LDA V007A??? REPLACES: DEC-11-ASXB-PBSA=1516 RA=1516??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 39??? 11/3/1975??? ??? ?? PAL-11S V003A PT??? DEC-11-UPLSA-A-PL??? PDP-11??? PAL-11S.LDA V003A??? REPLACES: DEC-11-ASQA-PLSA=2066 RA=2066??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 42??? 12/1/1972??? ??? ?? EDIT-11 V005A PT??? DEC-11-UEDPA-A-PB??? PDP-11??? ED-11 V005A??? REPLACES: DEC-11-E1PA-PB??? ??? ?? Digital??? ??? 39??? 11/10/1975??? ??? ?? LINK-11S? V002A? (SA 22714) PT??? DEC-11-ULKSA-A-PL??? PDP-11??? LINK-11S.LDA V002A??? REPLACES:DEC-11-ZLQA-PL??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 41??? 12/1/1972??? ??? ?? ODT-11? V005A PT??? DEC-11-UODPA-A-PB??? PDP-11??? ODT-11.LDA V005A RE-ENTER=13032??? REPLACES:DEC-11-O1PA-PB SA=13026 RA=.30??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 44??? 12/1/1972?? DUMPTT? V001A PT??? DEC-11-Y1PA-PB??? PDP-11??? DUMPTT V001A??? SA=LOAD ADDRESS RA=LOADADDRESS??? ??? ??? ??? Digital??? ??? 43??? 11/10/1969??? ?? DUMPAB V001A PT??? DEC-11-Y2PA-PO??? PDP-11??? DUMPAB V001A??? SA=XX7500 RA=XX7500??? ??? ?? Digital??? ??? 44??? 11/10/1969??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 4 16:08:46 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 16:08:46 -0600 Subject: Need some PDP-11 paper tapes In-Reply-To: <388624978.9234877.1551736573053@mail.yahoo.com> References: <388624978.9234877.1551736573053.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <388624978.9234877.1551736573053@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 3/4/2019 3:56 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > I? would? love to have? focal 11 on paper? tape? too if? anyone can punch one up!? thx? ed# > I have FOCAL-GT on paper tape - but no duplicates. I'd expect that is for a GT-11. All of the other FOCAL tapes I have are for 8's/12's. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 4 15:08:22 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 15:08:22 -0600 Subject: PDP-11/60 manuals needed In-Reply-To: <20190228191932.F16AD18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190228191932.F16AD18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <66b307d2-26fe-a369-6fb2-38efd0e97aed@charter.net> The PDP-11/60 manuals described below have been scanned, and are available on my Google Drive using this link: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B2v4WRwISEQRWWFFdVpCZWFTZEU Under ./pdf/dec/1160 Enjoy. On 2/28/2019 1:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctech wrote: > > From: Jay Jaeger > > > I have EK-11060-OP-003: "PDP-11/60 installation and operation manual" > > and an update EK-11060-OP-C1. > > Yeah, that's the one I referred to as "the general -11/60 manual"; generally, > there's one such for all the -11 models, but the exact name varies from model > to model (unlike, say, the CPU tech manuals, the name for which is pretty > predictable). > > > let me know and I will scan it in and stick it on my Google drive in a > > day or two or three > > That would be great; thanks very much! No rush at all... > > > I also have a spare processor handbook, EB-06498-20/77 > > We do have that one, thanks. > > BTW, looking a little more closely at the cabinet/power-supply manual > (pg. 1-7), the KD11-K TM might _only_ be available on fiche. If so, that'll be > the first time I've ever seen that. Oddly enough, further down the page, the > FP11-E TM seems to be available in printed form (EK-FP11E-TM). > > > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > I've seen Tech Manuals printed as 2-up on C-sized paper > > Yeah, generally things from the -11/20 era are like that (e.g. the RK11-C > manual). Nothing later than that that I've ever seen, though. > > >>> I have the two BA11 cabinets for an 11/60, the PSUs, and the front > >>> panel (I'm missing the rack). > > > "the rack" is just the outer box with rails (not an H960 - whatever the > > designation is for the odd 11/60 cabinet). > > I think it's the H9500 low-boy corporate cabinet, per Chapter 5 in > the cabinet/power manual. > > > The backplanes are in the BA11s. I seem to have both MOS and core > > memory and, I am fairly sure, an RK611, along with the CPU. I need to > > take a module inventory. > > You seem to have most of the crucial bits, although you might be missing > the power harness. > > Do you have the optional WCS module (M7870)? There are also ROM modules, and > a diagnostic module, that can go in that slot - only one of the three at a > time, though. > > Noel > From ray at arachelian.com Mon Mar 4 17:45:28 2019 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Mon, 4 Mar 2019 18:45:28 -0500 Subject: Craigslist Apple 512K Lisa Computer In-Reply-To: <904BE15A-3BAC-45C2-9558-5B3A61FCA0F4@avanthar.com> References: <904BE15A-3BAC-45C2-9558-5B3A61FCA0F4@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 03/03/19 19:26, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Mar 3, 2019, at 10:35 AM, Ray Arachelian via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 03/03/19 12:58, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote: >>> I just ran across this and while I'm not interested, someone on the >>> list might be. >>> >>> https://santabarbara.craigslist.org/sys/d/apple-512k-lisa-computer-valuetec-2900t/6821658432.html >>> >>> >>> It was posted about 14 days ago, and looks to be in Santa Barbara, CA. >>> >> That doesn't look like it's a Lisa, it may be a tempest hardened Mac 512. > An interesting system. Someone needs to save this. Based on the description, and the way it looks, I think you?re right about it being designed for TEMPEST hardening. There were some TEMPEST versions of the Mac II. > > Zane > > Yeah, totally it should be saved. This photo is interesting: https://images.craigslist.org/00I0I_5CA0pMPnaIP_1200x900.jpg that does look like the Lisa's keyboard. Perhaps they modified one to work with this. But perhaps it's really a Mac 512k keyboard that also has the numeric keypad all inside a single case: https://s14-eu5.startpage.com/cgi-bin/serveimage?url=http:%2F%2Fimgur.com%2FdyvXb2T.jpg&sp=e195b07752dbbef5f7b8640d048fd9a2 From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Tue Mar 5 15:18:48 2019 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 15:18:48 -0600 Subject: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks? In-Reply-To: <0d5515a0-cb5c-b0c2-17c3-1e8ca6b61655@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20190215032837.GA2556@RawFedDogs.net> <20190215050309.GA26741@RawFedDogs.net> <202a01d4c6a2$72e440b0$58acc210$@gmail.com> <767b6871-3f32-0658-48eb-41cd2625168b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <002a01d4c762$c31a2520$494e6f60$@gmail.com> <466ed327-9d27-a861-c702-66767733d766@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <006001d4c9d4$ff96a720$fec3f560$@gmail.com> <0d5515a0-cb5c-b0c2-17c3-1e8ca6b61655@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20190305211847.GA27004@RawFedDogs.net> Grant, On Fri, Feb 22, 2019 at 04:02:33PM -0700, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Why do there need to be 10 VTAM/SNA nodes defined for the RS/6000? > Wouldn't it be one node unto itself, much like a 3174, with the 10 > VTAM/SNA nodes for the terminals behind it? Our RS/6000 running DirectTalk/6000 had one VTAM LU for each voice channel so that each call had its own dedicated 3270 session. Under the "3270 Operations" display it would show the list of LUs, and which, if any, scripts were running on them. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Mar 5 16:17:06 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 15:17:06 -0700 Subject: IBM 3174 C 6.4 Microcode Disks? In-Reply-To: <20190305211847.GA27004@RawFedDogs.net> References: <20190215032837.GA2556@RawFedDogs.net> <20190215050309.GA26741@RawFedDogs.net> <202a01d4c6a2$72e440b0$58acc210$@gmail.com> <767b6871-3f32-0658-48eb-41cd2625168b@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <002a01d4c762$c31a2520$494e6f60$@gmail.com> <466ed327-9d27-a861-c702-66767733d766@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <006001d4c9d4$ff96a720$fec3f560$@gmail.com> <0d5515a0-cb5c-b0c2-17c3-1e8ca6b61655@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20190305211847.GA27004@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <0d1a5eab-3364-4a6b-3996-5246ab204e52@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 03/05/2019 02:18 PM, Kevin Monceaux via cctalk wrote: > Our RS/6000 running DirectTalk/6000 had one VTAM LU for each voice channel > so that each call had its own dedicated 3270 session. Under the "3270 > Operations" display it would show the list of LUs, and which, if any, > scripts were running on them. Interesting. Was that some sort of requirement from the mainframe side that each voice channel had a VTAM LU definition? Or was it simply to ensure that there was a large enough pool to not have any contention when the RS/6000 needed to make connections 3270 to the mainframe for each voice channel at the same time? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 5 19:16:09 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 17:16:09 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution Message-ID: Today's tape recovery gem. UBC's PDP-11 UNIX tools distribution ca. 1983 which includes UBC BASIC and their RT-11 emulation. It has a couple of bad blocks, but I couldn't find another copy of this anywhere. http://bitsavers.org/bits/UBC/ If anyone has a complete copy, it would be good to replace it, but most is better than none of it. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 5 19:18:26 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 17:18:26 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/5/19 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Today's tape recovery gem. UBC's PDP-11 UNIX tools distribution ca. 1983 oh.. and Bill Webb's name is all over this stuff Bill went to IBM, and worked on AOS for the PC-RT From pete at pski.net Tue Mar 5 20:15:36 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 21:15:36 -0500 Subject: Steve Leininger Interview Message-ID: <27AC1677-44E5-483A-92CF-72B822B2EFA6@pski.net> We interviewed TRS-80 designer Steve Leininger on the latest TRS-80 Trash Talk podcast. http://www.trs80trashtalk.com Although he does not have the same recognition, Steve?s contribution to the history of personal computing is on par with Steve Wozniak (Apple I/II) at Apple and Check Peddle (PET 2001) at Commodore. From pete at pski.net Tue Mar 5 20:18:05 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 21:18:05 -0500 Subject: Steve Leininger Interview In-Reply-To: <27AC1677-44E5-483A-92CF-72B822B2EFA6@pski.net> References: <27AC1677-44E5-483A-92CF-72B822B2EFA6@pski.net> Message-ID: That?s Chuck Peddle, of course. > On Mar 5, 2019, at 9:15 PM, Peter Cetinski wrote: > > We interviewed TRS-80 designer Steve Leininger on the latest TRS-80 Trash Talk podcast. > > http://www.trs80trashtalk.com > > Although he does not have the same recognition, Steve?s contribution to the history of personal computing is on par with Steve Wozniak (Apple I/II) at Apple and Check Peddle (PET 2001) at Commodore. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 5 22:36:56 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 20:36:56 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 5:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/5/19 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Today's tape recovery gem. UBC's PDP-11 UNIX tools distribution ca. 1983 > > oh.. and Bill Webb's name is all over this stuff > > Bill went to IBM, and worked on AOS for the PC-RT UBC is what? University of British Columbia? Warner From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 5 23:26:00 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 21:26:00 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> On 2019-Mar-05, at 8:36 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 5:17 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> On 3/5/19 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> Today's tape recovery gem. UBC's PDP-11 UNIX tools distribution ca. 1983 >> >> oh.. and Bill Webb's name is all over this stuff >> >> Bill went to IBM, and worked on AOS for the PC-RT > > UBC is what? University of British Columbia? That was my first question too. Having worked at the University of British Columbia through that era, a "UNIX tools distribution" kind of surprised me, and was wondering if it was some other meaning of "UBC". The Computing Centre (at that time) had nothing to do with UNIX, revolving entirely around MTS. They used /11s as front-end terminal muxes for the MTS mainframe, but those were running their own internal system software written in their own language (PLUS, IIRC). The Computer Science Dept. (my home base) ignored ATT Unix and had no /11s running UNIX, instead running BSD on vax(en). There was a small facility in biosci or genetics running UNIX on /11s or (later) a vax (IIRC), serving the bio community. I had some minor association with them, saw the machine room once and recall the fellow who managed it, but was unaware of them doing general system tools development, or being known for such outside the university/bio dept. TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe, that's not where you anticipate UNIX showing up. But . . . buried in ubc/fcdoc/fclet is: )m Biology Data Center )l 2204 Main Mall )l The University of British Columbia )l Vancouver, B.C., Canada ~~V6T 1W5 )ml2e go )t2 August 24, 1979. )l2 Dear Fortran 77 user: !p there is now available a new version of the UBC Fortran 77 compiler. . . . . . . )l6t2 Sincerly )l4t2 W. E. Webb Learn somethin' new every day. From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Mar 5 16:56:36 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 14:56:36 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: OK, got back to this ... Plugged in the Rainbow 100. Flipped the power switch. No LEDs lit. There is a white circuit breaker on the power supply. When I switch on the power, it pops out. I switch off the power, reset the breaker, switch on the power and it pops out again. alan On 3/1/19 2:32 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > Since you don't hear the gears grinding in the rx-50, that's a failure > fairly early on. The LEDs in the back of the case will tell you > something. There's a table for LED codes in the Rainbow manuals > somewhere. If NO LEDs are on, that tells you something too (they all > light up on application of power). > > I've had my rainbow for 30 years, and haven't had to deal with bad > caps in the power supply, but I've also gone as long as a decade with > the Rainbow in a box...? And now I have 4 of them (2As and 2Bs).... > > Warner > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 3:13 PM Alan Perry > wrote: > > I will look at that when I get back home after the weekend. > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Warner Losh > wrote: > >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech >> > wrote: >> >> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. >> >> The last time it responded to the power switched, components >> powered up and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly >> everything stopped like the plug had been pulled. >> >> Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. >> >> >> The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs while >> booting... Do any of them light up? >> >> Warner >> >> alan >> >> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight > > wrote: >> > >> > Maybe I need a little clearification. >> > When you turn the switches off, it boots? >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > From: cctech > > on behalf of Alan >> Perry via cctech > > >> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM >> > To: Ethan Dicks >> > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list >> > >> > >> > >> > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks >> > wrote: >> > > >> > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech >> > > > wrote: >> > >> Hi, >> > >> >> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a >> Rainbow 100. Does >> > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of >> capacitors used in >> > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? >> > > >> > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last >> month) but >> > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI >> filter caps >> > > by the power inlet.? I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets >> and in a >> > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. >> > >> > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about >> what to look for before powering it up and was told about >> Rifa caps and what look/listen for. >> > >> > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it >> up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was >> really cloudy, so I didn?t use the system anymore until I >> removed the PVA over Christmas. I was testing everything >> after that and the system was booting up when the power all >> switched off like it had been unplugged. >> > >> > alan >> > >> > >> > > >> > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. >> > > >> > > -ethan >> > >> From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 5 17:43:30 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 15:43:30 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: If you disconnect the power supply from the motherboard, disks, etc, does it still pop? If so -> bad power supply. If not, reconnect one at a time and see if it is load based (eg each of them connected alone causes it). If it is purely load based, then it's a bad ps). If there's one thing that causes it to pop, there's an issue there. If it is the mobo, you might also try w/o the VR201 connected, since if that's pulling too much power, it can cause a PS overload (though I've never had this issue, I've read about it years ago). Warner On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry wrote: > OK, got back to this ... > > Plugged in the Rainbow 100. Flipped the power switch. No LEDs lit. > > There is a white circuit breaker on the power supply. When I switch on the > power, it pops out. I switch off the power, reset the breaker, switch on > the power and it pops out again. > > alan > > On 3/1/19 2:32 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > Since you don't hear the gears grinding in the rx-50, that's a failure > fairly early on. The LEDs in the back of the case will tell you something. > There's a table for LED codes in the Rainbow manuals somewhere. If NO LEDs > are on, that tells you something too (they all light up on application of > power). > > I've had my rainbow for 30 years, and haven't had to deal with bad caps in > the power supply, but I've also gone as long as a decade with the Rainbow > in a box... And now I have 4 of them (2As and 2Bs).... > > Warner > > On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 3:13 PM Alan Perry wrote: > >> I will look at that when I get back home after the weekend. >> >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched it off. >>> >>> The last time it responded to the power switched, components powered up >>> and the FDD started operating. Then suddenly everything stopped like the >>> plug had been pulled. >>> >>> Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. >>> >> >> The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs while >> booting... Do any of them light up? >> >> Warner >> >> >>> alan >>> >>> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight wrote: >>> > >>> > Maybe I need a little clearification. >>> > When you turn the switches off, it boots? >>> > Dwight >>> > >>> > >>> > From: cctech on behalf of Alan Perry >>> via cctech >>> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM >>> > To: Ethan Dicks >>> > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech >>> > > wrote: >>> > >> Hi, >>> > >> >>> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. >>> Does >>> > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors >>> used in >>> > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? >>> > > >>> > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows last month) but >>> > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for Rifa EMI filter caps >>> > > by the power inlet. I've had those fail in BA23 cabinets and in a >>> > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. >>> > >>> > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here about what to look >>> for before powering it up and was told about Rifa caps and what look/listen >>> for. >>> > >>> > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just powered it up and I >>> ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in the monitor was really cloudy, so I >>> didn?t use the system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I was >>> testing everything after that and the system was booting up when the power >>> all switched off like it had been unplugged. >>> > >>> > alan >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > This is totally different than failing/bulging electrolytics. >>> > > >>> > > -ethan >>> > >>> >> > From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Mar 5 17:50:19 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 15:50:19 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Yes, with the power supply disconnected from the mobo, it pops. alan On 3/5/19 3:43 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > If you disconnect the power supply from the motherboard, disks, etc, > does it still pop? If so -> bad power supply. If not, reconnect one at > a time and see if it is load based (eg each of them connected alone > causes it). If it is purely load based, then it's a bad ps). If > there's one thing that causes it to pop, there's an issue there. If it > is the mobo, you might also try w/o the VR201 connected, since if > that's pulling too much power, it can cause a PS overload (though I've > never had this issue, I've read about it years ago). > > Warner > > On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry > wrote: > > OK, got back to this ... > > Plugged in the Rainbow 100. Flipped the power switch. No LEDs lit. > > There is a white circuit breaker on the power supply. When I > switch on the power, it pops out. I switch off the power, reset > the breaker, switch on the power and it pops out again. > > alan > > On 3/1/19 2:32 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> Since you don't hear the gears grinding in the rx-50, that's a >> failure fairly early on. The LEDs in the back of the case will >> tell you something. There's a table for LED codes in the Rainbow >> manuals somewhere. If NO LEDs are on, that tells you something >> too (they all light up on application of power). >> >> I've had my rainbow for 30 years, and haven't had to deal with >> bad caps in the power supply, but I've also gone as long as a >> decade with the Rainbow in a box...? And now I have 4 of them >> (2As and 2Bs).... >> >> Warner >> >> On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 3:13 PM Alan Perry > > wrote: >> >> I will look at that when I get back home after the weekend. >> >> On Mar 1, 2019, at 2:01 PM, Warner Losh > > wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Mar 1, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry via cctech >>> > wrote: >>> >>> Initially it booted and ran for a while until I switched >>> it off. >>> >>> The last time it responded to the power switched, >>> components powered up and the FDD started operating. >>> Then suddenly everything stopped like the plug had been >>> pulled. >>> >>> Now it does nothing (apparent) when it is switched on. >>> >>> >>> The rainbow has a number of LEDs in the back that it frobs >>> while booting... Do any of them light up? >>> >>> Warner >>> >>> alan >>> >>> > On Mar 1, 2019, at 1:44 PM, dwight >>> > wrote: >>> > >>> > Maybe I need a little clearification. >>> > When you turn the switches off, it boots? >>> > Dwight >>> > >>> > >>> > From: cctech >> > on behalf of >>> Alan Perry via cctech >> > >>> > Sent: Friday, March 1, 2019 1:35 PM >>> > To: Ethan Dicks >>> > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts >>> > Subject: Re: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > > On Mar 1, 2019, at 7:52 AM, Ethan Dicks >>> > >>> wrote: >>> > > >>> > > On Wed, Feb 27, 2019 at 1:21 PM Alan Perry via cctech >>> > > >> > wrote: >>> > >> Hi, >>> > >> >>> > >> I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a >>> Rainbow 100. Does >>> > >> anyone here know if anyone has put together a list >>> of capacitors used in >>> > >> the power supply that I can use to order parts? >>> > > >>> > > I don't have a list (I just got a pair of Rainbows >>> last month) but >>> > > given the era of manufacture, I'd be looking for >>> Rifa EMI filter caps >>> > > by the power inlet.? I've had those fail in BA23 >>> cabinets and in a >>> > > Commodore D9060 hard drive, and a TRS-80 Model 4. >>> > >>> > Thanks. When I first got the Rainbow, I asked here >>> about what to look for before powering it up and was >>> told about Rifa caps and what look/listen for. >>> > >>> > I eventually threw caution to the wind and just >>> powered it up and I ran it for 15-20 minutes. The PVA in >>> the monitor was really cloudy, so I didn?t use the >>> system anymore until I removed the PVA over Christmas. I >>> was testing everything after that and the system was >>> booting up when the power all switched off like it had >>> been unplugged. >>> > >>> > alan >>> > >>> > >>> > > >>> > > This is totally different than failing/bulging >>> electrolytics. >>> > > >>> > > -ethan >>> > >>> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 5 18:02:25 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 16:02:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: The circuit breaker is there to reduce the chances that a problem turns into a disaster. Although it IS possible to have a defective circuit breaker that is "false tripping", or thinking that it has an overload at normal amperages, that is unlikely. I'm afraid that it is time to start by checking for shorts to ground, etc., without continuing to let it happen. Starting with whatever the circuit breaker is trying to protect. On Tue, 5 Mar 2019, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > Yes, with the power supply disconnected from the mobo, it pops. > > alan > > On 3/5/19 3:43 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> If you disconnect the power supply from the motherboard, disks, etc, does >> it still pop? If so -> bad power supply. If not, reconnect one at a time >> and see if it is load based (eg each of them connected alone causes it). >> If it is purely load based, then it's a bad ps). If there's one thing that >> causes it to pop, there's an issue there. If it is the mobo, you might >> also try w/o the VR201 connected, since if that's pulling too much power, >> it can cause a PS overload (though I've never had this issue, I've read >> about it years ago). >> >> Warner >> >> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry > > wrote: >> >> OK, got back to this ... >> >> Plugged in the Rainbow 100. Flipped the power switch. No LEDs lit. >> >> There is a white circuit breaker on the power supply. When I >> switch on the power, it pops out. I switch off the power, reset >> the breaker, switch on the power and it pops out again. >> >> alan From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Mar 5 18:16:16 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 16:16:16 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <8477a95a-9291-505d-bd96-3cb8b76da868@snowmoose.com> For a little background, I had run the system for about 15 minutes, then it sat for a couple months while I removed the PVA from the display, then, when I tried to run the system again, the system started to boot and then the circuit breaker popped. On 3/5/19 4:02 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > The circuit breaker is there to reduce the chances that a problem > turns into a disaster. > > Although it IS possible to have a defective circuit breaker that is > "false tripping", or thinking that it has an overload at normal > amperages, that is unlikely. > > I'm afraid that it is time to start by checking for shorts to ground, > etc., without continuing to let it happen.? Starting with whatever the > circuit breaker is trying to protect. > > > > On Tue, 5 Mar 2019, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > >> Yes, with the power supply disconnected from the mobo, it pops. >> >> alan >> >> On 3/5/19 3:43 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >>> If you disconnect the power supply from the motherboard, disks, etc, >>> does it still pop? If so -> bad power supply. If not, reconnect one >>> at a time and see if it is load based (eg each of them connected >>> alone causes it). If it is purely load based, then it's a bad ps). >>> If there's one thing that causes it to pop, there's an issue there. >>> If it is the mobo, you might also try w/o the VR201 connected, since >>> if that's pulling too much power, it can cause a PS overload (though >>> I've never had this issue, I've read about it years ago). >>> >>> Warner >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 5, 2019 at 2:56 PM Alan Perry >> > wrote: >>> >>> ??? OK, got back to this ... >>> >>> ??? Plugged in the Rainbow 100. Flipped the power switch. No LEDs lit. >>> >>> ??? There is a white circuit breaker on the power supply. When I >>> ??? switch on the power, it pops out. I switch off the power, reset >>> ??? the breaker, switch on the power and it pops out again. >>> >>> ??? alan > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Mar 5 23:06:29 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 05:06:29 +0000 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <8477a95a-9291-505d-bd96-3cb8b76da868@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> <7F484F12-88A0-43BD-AAC5-2A2830D92233@snowmoose.com> <71C26468-0040-4FC0-97D5-179D099E1503@snowmoose.com> <7AC2B1A9-41AC-4898-B570-8D9B66E62909@snowmoose.com> <8477a95a-9291-505d-bd96-3cb8b76da868@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 12:16 AM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > For a little background, I had run the system for about 15 minutes, then > it sat for a couple months while I removed the PVA from the display, > then, when I tried to run the system again, the system started to boot > and then the circuit breaker popped. This is a switch mode power supply with all the failure modes that that implies :-) I'd start by checking the mains bridge rectifier (actually used as a pair of diodes in a voltage doubler circuit on 110V mains), the mains smoothing capacitors (820uF?) and the BUV47 chopper transistor. If the last is short-circut then it's very possible it was damaged by a fault elsewhere in the PSU. -tony From rlloken at telus.net Wed Mar 6 00:07:37 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2019 23:07:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Mar 2019, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe, that's not where > you anticipate UNIX showing up. But was it Unix or something else like RT-11? Or was it a VAX? Between 1985 and 1990 I became aquainted with a guy named Jim Stewart who was teaching VAX/VMS programming for DEC in Vancouver and had a previous life administering and programming VAX/VMS machines at TRIUMF. Even three or four years ago Dow Chemical was still using VAXen running VMS to manage their chemical plant(s) near Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta and some time earlier the last surviving L-1011 (or was it a DC10?) flight simulator was in Vancouver and it was controlled by a VAX-11/7?? long after VAXen had fallen out of fashion. PDP11 boxes and VAXen show up in some really obscure places. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Mar 6 02:49:04 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 00:49:04 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> On 2019-Mar-05, at 10:07 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > On Tue, 5 Mar 2019, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe, that's not where you anticipate UNIX showing up. > > But was it Unix or something else like RT-11? Or was it a VAX? > > Between 1985 and 1990 I became aquainted with a guy named Jim Stewart who was teaching VAX/VMS programming for DEC in Vancouver and had a previous life administering and programming VAX/VMS machines at TRIUMF. Well, I don't know for certain, I was just trying to recall where I was aware of there being /11's around campus. I had the impression from somewhere at the time that /11s were running the cyclotron, or were present in some significant capacity at TRIUMF. It would make sense in terms of TRIUMF chronological dev, predating VAX. And for real-time control, don't expect UNIX. So I wasn't aware of, or it seemed unlikely to me, the tools came out of TRIUMF. The quoted text from the tape seems to confirm it came out the UBC biosci service. Granted that a facility like TRIUMF can be expected to have more than one computing cluster/service. Come to recall, I did have some minor contact with TRIUMF in a professional capacity - we supplied our X400 email program to them (as well as to the biosci facility), and that would have been for a VAX, most likely VMS, machine. The HEP community was quite fond of VAXen & VMS in that era. > Even three or four years ago Dow Chemical was still using VAXen running VMS to manage their chemical plant(s) near Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta and some time earlier the last surviving L-1011 (or was it a DC10?) flight simulator was in Vancouver and it was controlled by a VAX-11/7?? long after VAXen had fallen out of fashion. > > PDP11 boxes and VAXen show up in some really obscure places. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 6 06:01:19 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:01:19 +0000 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 3/6/19 1:07 AM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 5 Mar 2019, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > >> TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe, that's not >> where you anticipate UNIX showing up. > > But was it Unix or something else like RT-11?? Or was it a VAX? > > Between 1985 and 1990 I became aquainted with a guy named Jim Stewart > who was teaching VAX/VMS programming for DEC in Vancouver and had a > previous life administering and programming VAX/VMS machines at TRIUMF. > I know TRIUMF had Vaxen. I ended out with a few of them many, many years ago. Still run them. bill From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Mar 6 12:14:18 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 10:14:18 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Brent Hilpert writes: > On 2019-Mar-05, at 10:07 PM, Richard Loken wrote: >> TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe, that's not >> where you anticipate UNIX showing up. >> But was it Unix or something else like RT-11? Or was it a VAX? > Well, I don't know for certain, I was just trying to recall where I was > aware of there being /11's around campus. > I had the impression from somewhere at the time that /11s were running > the cyclotron, or were present in some significant capacity at TRIUMF. When I toured SLAC at Stanford in the late '90s I was surprised to see the miles and miles of coax from the collider's sensors/detectors terminating at a long row of PDP-11s. Turns out the '11s had custom- designed boards that filtered out all the crap from the collider events before passing the "useful" data upstream for analysis. (This is based on questions I asked the grad student conducting the tour.) I never thought to ask which OS the '11s were running. Maybe TRIUMF was doing something similar? --lyndon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 6 14:26:08 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 12:26:08 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 3/6/19 10:14 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk wrote: > Brent Hilpert writes: > >> On 2019-Mar-05, at 10:07 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > >>> TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe sigh.. before this goes farther into the weeds, the tape came from the University of British Columbia's Biosciences Data Center there is a short bio of Bill Webb at http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/people I guess there aren't enough Unix greybeards around here any more. The UBC tape, like Usenix tapes, Yale E editor, and the RAND editor tapes were just things you knew about. From lyndon at orthanc.ca Wed Mar 6 15:07:18 2019 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Wed, 06 Mar 2019 13:07:18 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Al Kossow via cctalk writes: > On 3/6/19 10:14 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk wrote: > sigh.. before this goes farther into the weeds, the tape > came from the University of British Columbia's Biosciences Data Center > > there is a short bio of Bill Webb at > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/people > > I guess there aren't enough Unix greybeards around here any more. > The UBC tape, like Usenix tapes, Yale E editor, and the RAND editor tapes > were just things you knew about. I stumbled across Bill Web during my MTS days, well before I discovered UNIX. I used more than a few of his MTS programs that leaked out of UBC to UQV. --lyndon > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 15:20:55 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:20:55 -0500 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 3:50 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I guess there aren't enough Unix greybeards around here any more. > The UBC tape, like Usenix tapes, Yale E editor, and the RAND editor tapes > were just things you knew about. I got into UNIX in 1984/85 on VAXen and I know all about the Usenix tapes, but I have to say the UBC tape is not something I recall from those days. -ethan From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 17:07:59 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 23:07:59 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround to install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS will not work.Brian. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Mar 6 17:22:41 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:22:41 -0700 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <2c932ecd-86bd-704f-a227-29eb2be6f4f2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 03/06/2019 04:07 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful > of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my > DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround > to install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS > will not work.Brian. My discussions 4 ~ 6 month ago with people from the Hobbyist License program told me that I could (re)use my single hobbyist license on multiple VAXen, physical and / or virtual. If you are worried or want confirmation, please send the contact for your existing license an email. Or go through the Hobbyist License front door and inquire. They were quite friendly and seemed happy to answer my questions. The worst was the sometimes multi-day turn around time. But I'm not complaining for something free. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 6 17:37:36 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 23:37:36 +0000 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <2c932ecd-86bd-704f-a227-29eb2be6f4f2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <2c932ecd-86bd-704f-a227-29eb2be6f4f2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <61bb9337-974b-38d2-c2ab-8576ec5f4944@ntlworld.com> On 06/03/2019 23:22, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 03/06/2019 04:07 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: >> Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a >> handful of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and >> 11/782 to my DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) >> license workaround to install networking on an older version such as >> 4.4. The current PAKS will not work.Brian. > > My discussions 4 ~ 6 month ago with people from the Hobbyist License > program told me that I could (re)use my single hobbyist license on > multiple VAXen, physical and / or virtual. > > If you are worried or want confirmation, please send the contact for > your existing license an email.? Or go through the Hobbyist License > front door and inquire. > > They were quite friendly and seemed happy to answer my questions. The > worst was the sometimes multi-day turn around time.? But I'm not > complaining for something free.? :-) > > > If you go back far enough in time (i.e. before V5.0 iirc) then there were no licence paks. Instead you had tapes that would allow more logins or more networking. For anything else, if you had the media, you could install (although to be legal you were supposed to have a licence). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Mar 6 17:43:01 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 23:43:01 -0000 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <312801d4d476$572be170$0583a450$@gmail.com> Brian, I wonder why you think the Hobbyist licences won't work. I have a number of virtual and physical vaxen and virtiual and have no problems networking them. I believe that most of HECNET runs on Hobbyist Licences. After all it?s a Hobbyist DECNET. http://www.update.uu.se/~bqt/hecnet.html Dave. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brian Roth via > cctalk > Sent: 06 March 2019 23:08 > To: ClassicCmp > Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS > > Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful of > simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my > DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround to > install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS will not > work.Brian. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 19:01:55 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (BGeezer) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 20:01:55 -0500 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> Ok, I got a chance to login and try installing DECnet so I could reproduce the error. This is the result of trying to install without a license. VMS by itself does not complain. If you have not already installed the DECnet-VAX license, then do so now. After the license has been installed, you should invoke the procedure SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET.COM to startup DECnet-VAX with these changes. (If the license is already installed) Do you want DECnet started? [YES]: %%%%%%%%%%%? OPCOM?? 6-MAR-2019 19:54:08.80? %%%%%%%%%%% Message from user DECNET DECnet starting %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 00000108 %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Operation failure Circuit = UNA-0 %SYSTEM-F-NOLICENSE, operation requires software license %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000010A I'll try and extract just the DECnet license and install it on its own and see what I get. On 3/6/19 6:07 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround to install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS will not work.Brian. > > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Mar 6 20:20:48 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 18:20:48 -0800 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> Prior to v5.0, VAX/VMS didn?t use LMF, so as Antonio pointed out, you need a license tape. While I saw these online a few years ago, I didn?t download them at the time, and they don?t seem to be online anywhere. Years ago, I got a MicroVAX 3 system running VAX/VMS 4.6 from an RD53. It booted once, when I went to boot the 2nd time to back it up to a TK50, the RD53 died. :-( End result, it has OpenVMS 7.2 installed on a RA73 (and hasn?t been booted in nearly 20 years). Zane > On Mar 6, 2019, at 5:01 PM, BGeezer via cctalk wrote: > > Ok, I got a chance to login and try installing DECnet so I could reproduce the error. This is the result of > > trying to install without a license. VMS by itself does not complain. > > If you have not already installed the DECnet-VAX license, then do so now. > > After the license has been installed, you should invoke the procedure > SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET.COM to startup DECnet-VAX with these changes. > > (If the license is already installed) Do you want DECnet started? [YES]: > %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 6-MAR-2019 19:54:08.80 %%%%%%%%%%% > Message from user DECNET > DECnet starting > > %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 00000108 > %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Operation failure > Circuit = UNA-0 > %SYSTEM-F-NOLICENSE, operation requires software license > %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000010A > > > I'll try and extract just the DECnet license and install it on its own and see what I get. > > > > On 3/6/19 6:07 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: >> Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround to install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS will not work.Brian. >> >> >> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Wed Mar 6 21:21:13 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (BGeezer) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:21:13 -0500 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <33e5d297-dc95-9760-fe7a-df134d4c5840@yahoo.com> Yes, I can see now that they are different. If I can't find a license tape I'll probably put on 5.5 which I have as well. In fact I have V1.0 on up. I'm running two Simh instances on each Raspberry Pi all clustered and running DECnet and TCP/IP. I was hoping for a large mix of machines and VMS versions so hopefully I can eventually find some early licenses. On 3/6/19 9:20 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Prior to v5.0, VAX/VMS didn?t use LMF, so as Antonio pointed out, you need a license tape. While I saw these online a few years ago, I didn?t download them at the time, and they don?t seem to be online anywhere. > > Years ago, I got a MicroVAX 3 system running VAX/VMS 4.6 from an RD53. It booted once, when I went to boot the 2nd time to back it up to a TK50, the RD53 died. :-( End result, it has OpenVMS 7.2 installed on a RA73 (and hasn?t been booted in nearly 20 years). > > Zane > > > > >> On Mar 6, 2019, at 5:01 PM, BGeezer via cctalk wrote: >> >> Ok, I got a chance to login and try installing DECnet so I could reproduce the error. This is the result of >> >> trying to install without a license. VMS by itself does not complain. >> >> If you have not already installed the DECnet-VAX license, then do so now. >> >> After the license has been installed, you should invoke the procedure >> SYS$MANAGER:STARTNET.COM to startup DECnet-VAX with these changes. >> >> (If the license is already installed) Do you want DECnet started? [YES]: >> %%%%%%%%%%% OPCOM 6-MAR-2019 19:54:08.80 %%%%%%%%%%% >> Message from user DECNET >> DECnet starting >> >> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 00000108 >> %NCP-I-NMLRSP, listener response - Operation failure >> Circuit = UNA-0 >> %SYSTEM-F-NOLICENSE, operation requires software license >> %RUN-S-PROC_ID, identification of created process is 0000010A >> >> >> I'll try and extract just the DECnet license and install it on its own and see what I get. >> >> >> >> On 3/6/19 6:07 PM, Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: >>> Hello,I have a current hobbyists license for OpenVMS 7.3 and a handful of simulated VAXen. I wanted to add my simulated 11/780 and 11/782 to my DECnet and wondered if there was a (legal of course) license workaround to install networking on an older version such as 4.4. The current PAKS will not work.Brian. >>> >>> >>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Mar 6 18:35:56 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 16:35:56 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my question was never answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: 2x 3200uF @ 16V 1x 2200uF @ 35V 2x 820uF @ 250V 1x 560uF @ 20V 1x 330uF @ 20V 3x 47uF @ 16V 1x 10uF @ 35V 1x 2uF @ 25V I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it actually works. alan On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > Hi, > > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > alan > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 6 19:15:30 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 17:15:30 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 4:36 PM Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my question was never > answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. > > According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: > > 2x 3200uF @ 16V > 1x 2200uF @ 35V > 2x 820uF @ 250V > 1x 560uF @ 20V > 1x 330uF @ 20V > 3x 47uF @ 16V > 1x 10uF @ 35V > 1x 2uF @ 25V > > I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it actually works > Cool. Has anybody tried to run an AT or ATX power supply with an adapter for the Rainbow? Warner > alan > > On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does > > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used > > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > > > alan > > > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed Mar 6 23:11:19 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 21:11:19 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 3/6/19 5:15 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 4:36 PM Alan Perry via cctech > > wrote: > > There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my question was > never > answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. > > According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: > > 2x 3200uF @ 16V > 1x 2200uF @ 35V > 2x 820uF @ 250V > 1x 560uF @ 20V > 1x 330uF @ 20V > 3x 47uF @ 16V > 1x 10uF @ 35V > 1x 2uF @ 25V > > I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it actually > works > > > Cool. Has anybody tried to run an AT or ATX power supply with an > adapter for the Rainbow? Do you have pinouts for the connectors on the power supply? alan > > Warner > > alan > > On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. > Does > > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors > used > > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? > > > > alan > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 7 00:21:02 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 6 Mar 2019 22:21:02 -0800 Subject: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alan Perry wrote: > > > On 3/6/19 5:15 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 4:36 PM Alan Perry via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my question was never >> answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. >> >> According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: >> >> 2x 3200uF @ 16V >> 1x 2200uF @ 35V >> 2x 820uF @ 250V >> 1x 560uF @ 20V >> 1x 330uF @ 20V >> 3x 47uF @ 16V >> 1x 10uF @ 35V >> 1x 2uF @ 25V >> >> I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it actually works >> > > Cool. Has anybody tried to run an AT or ATX power supply with an adapter > for the Rainbow? > > > Do you have pinouts for the connectors on the power supply? > The Rainbow 100 Technical Manual (page 3-30) has the following table: Table 3-11 Power Supply Connector (J8) Signals Pin Signal Mnemonic Description 1 AC Voltage Okay ACOKH This signal indicates the presence or absence of valid ac power entering the power supply. When valid ac power is present, this signal will be high. When the ac power is lower than the required minimum input voltage, this signal will be low. 2 Voltage Bias VBIAS This signal is connected to the communications control register via a jumper on the system module. The jumper is installed only for manufacturing testing. 3 None This pin is missing to provide a key for the cable connector. 4 -12 V -12 V input 5,6 +12 V + 12 V input 7,8,9 +5 V +5 V input 10, II, 12, 13 Ground GND DC power return and signal ground Page 1-10 gives the following regulated values: +5.1 V ?6% over the current range of 2.5 A to 11.5A +12.1 V ?6% over the current range of 0.6 A to 6.7A -12 V ? 7% over the current range of 0.0 A to 0.15 A ~130W power draw max. Warner Warner > > >> alan >> >> On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >> > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used >> > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? >> > >> > alan >> > >> >> > From imp at bsdimp.com Thu Mar 7 09:28:00 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 07:28:00 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 6, 2019, 12:25 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/6/19 10:14 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg via cctalk wrote: > > Brent Hilpert writes: > > > >> On 2019-Mar-05, at 10:07 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > > > >>> TRIUMF was using /11s for cyclotron control I believe > > sigh.. before this goes farther into the weeds, the tape > came from the University of British Columbia's Biosciences Data Center > > there is a short bio of Bill Webb at > http://archive.michigan-terminal-system.org/people > > I guess there aren't enough Unix greybeards around here any more. > The UBC tape, like Usenix tapes, Yale E editor, and the RAND editor tapes > were just things you knew about. > And the UNSW tapes too, no? Makes me wonder if there are other must have tapes from back in the day that we may or may not have copies of... Warnet > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 7 12:08:19 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 7 Mar 2019 10:08:19 -0800 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <023afb43-8b0f-6e83-fd5a-a20ada5ddb8b@bitsavers.org> On 3/7/19 7:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > Makes me wonder if there are other must have tapes from back in the day that we may or may > not have copies of... > I'm sure there are. Usenix threw out the copies of their tapes that were given back to them to preserve. From tshoppa at wmata.com Fri Mar 8 12:37:49 2019 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 18:37:49 +0000 Subject: Unix tools, Bill Webb, UBC, TRIUMF Message-ID: I recovered several pieces of Unix media ? all of which I think made it into TUHS/PUPS collection - at UBC in the mid-1990?s while I was working at TRIUMF. Those Unix disks and tapes came from a SERF sale (Surplus Equipment Recycling Facility) on UBC main campus, not from TRIUMF. Bill Webb was a common thread for Unix use in the biology department at UBC. TRIUMF extensively used Data General Nova, then Eclipse (both 16 and 32 bit), computers from opening through the 1990?s for both cyclotron control systems and data acquisition for experiments. They also had a fair number of PDP-11?s and VAXen running RSX-11, RT-11, and VMS. I myself had an Alpha workstation on my desk for the two users I was at TRIUMF. One of my favorite connections between TRIUMF and UBC, was the underground pneumatic tube used to rapidly carry short lived isotopes produced in the cyclotron to the main campus for biology and medical uses. It should not come as a surprise to anyone that I still work in moving things and people through underground tunnels ? Tim N3QE From jason at smbfc.net Fri Mar 8 13:40:05 2019 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 11:40:05 -0800 (PST) Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: <023afb43-8b0f-6e83-fd5a-a20ada5ddb8b@bitsavers.org> References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> <023afb43-8b0f-6e83-fd5a-a20ada5ddb8b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Mar 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure there are. > Usenix threw out the copies of their tapes that were given back to them to preserve. > Oof, that reads like a punch to the gut. --Jason From cube1 at charter.net Fri Mar 8 21:24:14 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 21:24:14 -0600 Subject: 1983 UBC PDP-11 Unix tools distribution In-Reply-To: <023afb43-8b0f-6e83-fd5a-a20ada5ddb8b@bitsavers.org> References: <4B16278B-1318-42DB-A01A-BD197C97638E@shaw.ca> <3EE21092-1044-440E-99E7-A9C8941147D6@shaw.ca> <023afb43-8b0f-6e83-fd5a-a20ada5ddb8b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have a tape with the label "UNIX USERS GRUOP NEW RELEASE TAPE" "091377" (That last part is almost certainly the date). The tape is in tp format. I don't see anything that looks to match in the bitsavers archive. Al, shall I upload the image for you to snag? JRJ On 3/7/2019 12:08 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/7/19 7:28 AM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> Makes me wonder if there are other must have tapes from back in the day that we may or may >> not have copies of... >> > > I'm sure there are. > Usenix threw out the copies of their tapes that were given back to them to preserve. > > > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Fri Mar 8 22:23:30 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 20:23:30 -0800 Subject: VCF Pacific Northwest is 2 weeks away Message-ID: Another VCF is upon us ... VCF PNW 2019 takes place March 23rd and 24th at Living Computers:Museum+Labs in Seattle. We have 30 exhibits (up from 20 last year) and six speakers, including Joe Decuir, IEEE Fellow. Our exhibits include: Josh Dersch with Three Rivers PERQ workstations David Cooper with a VAX cluster Vince Slyngstad demonstrating PDP-8 reapirs Foone Turing with his collection of floppy and optical disks Joerg Hoppe with BlinkenBone and UniBone (w/ Josh) Oscar Vermuelen with his replicas of the PDP-8, 11, and LGP-30 Ian Finder, over-achieving with two exhibits and helping on third Alan Perry with his SPARC clones Some rif-raff with their 8 bit home machines. ;-0 Admission is free once you pay to get into the museum. And of course the museum is worth checking out even without us, but we are going to make it that much better. We'll have a consignment room if you want to do some treasure hunting. (If you are looking to sell some treasure, that works too - you don't have to participate in the event to use the consignment room.) Full details can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw/ . Or email me directly if you have questions. -Mike From a2history at gmail.com Fri Mar 8 21:01:40 2019 From: a2history at gmail.com (Steven Weyhrich (a2history)) Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2019 21:01:40 -0600 Subject: KansasFest 2019 Message-ID: <8FA58BEC-0672-4DFE-9E32-92F71FE67A4B@gmail.com> For your interest: MARCH 8, 2019 ? KansasFest 2019, the 31st annual Apple II convention, is scheduled for July 16 ? 21 in Kansas City, Missouri. Mark Pelczarski of Penguin Software, well-known for numerous graphics utilities, books, and games, will join us with a keynote presentation to celebrate the Apple II. Pelczarski began publishing graphics-related Apple II software in 1978 while in his early 20?s under the brands Penguin Software and Polarware . He is an entrepreneur, author, programmer, consultant, and professional educator. Mark is well known for the Graphics Magician software, a toolkit for creating graphics that includes over 50 major software publishers as customers including Random House, Sierra Online, Spinnaker, and Mattel. He wrote monthly columns for Softalk and the book Graphically Speaking. Besides pioneering computer graphics, Polarware published numerous games including Transylvania , The Coveted Mirror , and Spy?s Demise . After leaving Polarware in 1987, Mark turned his attention to computer music and to online courses. Mark once said ?I like to make computers do things,? so he?ll surely fit in at KansasFest. KansasFest is an annual convention offering Apple II users and retrocomputing enthusiasts the opportunity to engage in beginner and technical sessions, programming contests, exhibition halls, and camaraderie. KansasFest was originally hosted by Resource Central and has been brought to you by the KFest committee since 1995. Any and all Apple II users, fans, and friends are invited to attend this year's event. Registration details will be announced on the KansasFest Web site, and registration will open on March 31. For photos, videos, and presentations from past KansasFests, please visit the event's official Website . CONTACT: KansasFest 2019 http://www.kansasfest.org/ http://twitter.com/kansasfest/ https://www.facebook.com/events/2286816188228271/ -------------------------------------------------------------- Steven Weyhrich ?< From matt at 9track.net Sat Mar 9 07:21:15 2019 From: matt at 9track.net (Matt Burke) Date: Sat, 9 Mar 2019 13:21:15 +0000 Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <33e5d297-dc95-9760-fe7a-df134d4c5840@yahoo.com> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> <33e5d297-dc95-9760-fe7a-df134d4c5840@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <649eeb77-05ac-bfa6-17fa-9c4db45242d6@9track.net> On 07/03/2019 03:21, BGeezer via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I can see now that they are different. If I can't find a license > tape I'll probably put on 5.5 which I have as well. In fact I have > V1.0 on up. I'm running two Simh instances on each Raspberry Pi all > clustered and running DECnet and TCP/IP. I was hoping for a large mix > of machines and VMS versions so hopefully I can eventually find some > early licenses. Search for BE-X083A-BE and you should also find BE-X085A-BE and BE-DL08A-BE. Matt From boris at summitclinic.com Sun Mar 10 00:22:19 2019 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Sat, 09 Mar 2019 22:22:19 -0800 Subject: Unix tools, Bill Webb, UBC, TRIUMF In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190310062229.B1A6B4E6AD@mx2.ezwind.net> I used to work at UBC in Pharmacology in the 1980's and had a few talks with Bill Webb about Unix but, unfortunately, for the data acquisition we were doing Unix was far too slow and I did everything in optimized PDP-11 assembler. Of course, we didn't have a PDP-11/45 like Bill had and had to make do with a slower PDP-11/34. Bill had hacked Unix considerably and it was locally known as Webbix on campus. Played around with Unix and Webbix back then but don't think I have the tapes anymore. One of the RL01 or RLO2 disks I picked up at SERF in the 1990's (along with a MINC system) contained a copy of Webbix but I'm not sure I copied it. Gave away the MINC and 2 RLO1 or RLO2 drives to a guy in Seattle about 2006 and hopefully he's copied them. Boris Gimbarzevsky >I recovered several pieces of Unix media ? all >of whichh I think made it into TUHS/PUPS >collection - at UBC in the mid-1990???s while I was working at TRIUMF. > >Those Unix disks and tapes came from a SERF sale >(Surplus Equipment Recycling Facility) on UBC >main campus, not from TRIUMF. Bill Webb was a >common thread for Unix use in the biology department at UBC. > >TRIUMF extensively used Data General Nova, then >Eclipse (both 16 and 32 bit), computers from >opening through the 1990???s for both cyclotron >control systems and data acquisition for >experiments. They also had a fair number of >PDP-11???s and VAXen running RSX-11, RT-11, and >VMS. I myself had an Alpha workstation on my >desk for the two users I was at TRIUMF. > >One of my favorite connections between TRIUMF >and UBC, was the underground pneumatic tube used >to rapidly carry short lived isotopes produced >in the cyclotron to the main campus for biology >and medical uses. It should not come as a >surprise to anyone that I still work in moving >things and people through underground tunnels ???? > >Tim N3QE From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 03:48:20 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 09:48:20 +0100 Subject: Trio laboratories inc PSU schematic? Message-ID: Does anyone have schematic for a Trio Labs PSU made in 1975 https://i.imgur.com/MTwcpRA.jpg It is a primary side switcher made in 1975 outputting 100 Amps 5Volt. Quite early for being primary switcher I would guess. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Mar 10 16:18:26 2019 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 17:18:26 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing Message-ID: Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us baby-boomers can attest to. Happy computing all! From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 10 17:10:15 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 16:10:15 -0600 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas > Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the > calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by > the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us > baby-boomers can attest to. > > Happy computing all! > So do have more information on said device? I am using a 2901 bit slice and that came out in 1975. :) Ben. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 10 17:59:04 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 18:59:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1360960699.470635.1552258744272@email.ionos.com> > On March 10, 2019 at 6:10 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas > > Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the > > calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by > > the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us > > baby-boomers can attest to. > > > > Happy computing all! > So do have more information on said device? > I am using a 2901 bit slice and that came out in 1975. :) > Ben. Here is a little bit of info on it: http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 10 19:16:16 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 17:16:16 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <42f6a5be-8a1f-c751-4427-9684f3df188a@bitsavers.org> On 3/10/19 2:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by > the mid-70s. Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! From guykd at optusnet.com.au Sun Mar 10 20:30:04 2019 From: guykd at optusnet.com.au (Guy Dunphy) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 12:30:04 +1100 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <1360960699.470635.1552258744272@email.ionos.com> References: Message-ID: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> At 06:59 PM 10/03/2019 -0400, you wrote: > >> On March 10, 2019 at 6:10 PM ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> > Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >> > Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >> > calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >> > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by >> > the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us >> > baby-boomers can attest to. >> > >> > Happy computing all! >> So do have more information on said device? >> I am using a 2901 bit slice and that came out in 1975. :) >> Ben. > >Here is a little bit of info on it: >http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? Guy From pat at vax11.net Sun Mar 10 21:48:24 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 22:48:24 -0400 Subject: Tape reading question Message-ID: Since I'm going to be out in Seattle for a week to participate in VCF/PNW, I was wondering if anyone in the area could lend me a hand with help reading in an old QIC-24 25MB tape cartridge or two? One has the TurboDOS backup/install media for a Televideo TS-816 that I got from Don Maslin back in the day. I think the other one is related too, but it was unmarked. I would like to at least try to get images off of them. At least one of them has a working belt.. the other ones fell apart when i tried removing the belt to reform it. Thank, Patrick Finnegan From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 10 22:11:53 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 23:11:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> > On March 10, 2019 at 9:30 PM Guy Dunphy wrote: > > > At 06:59 PM 10/03/2019 -0400, you wrote: > > > >> On March 10, 2019 at 6:10 PM ben via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> > >> On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >> > Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas > >> > Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the > >> > calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > >> > beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by > >> > the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us > >> > baby-boomers can attest to. > >> > > >> > Happy computing all! > >> So do have more information on said device? > >> I am using a 2901 bit slice and that came out in 1975. :) > >> Ben. > > > >Here is a little bit of info on it: > >http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html > > > That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. > > The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 > I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) > The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? > > Guy I have seen some claims that this was the first microprocessor -- although not a single chip https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Air_Data_Computer Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 11 00:48:03 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 23:48:03 -0600 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <42869262-7a8f-5878-7425-7d0b288224e9@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/10/2019 7:30 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> Here is a little bit of info on it: >> http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html > > > That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. > > The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 > I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) > The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? > Looking at the vintage calculator page, I would give the "FAR EAST" my vote for the first processor type chips. Everything was in-house development you can say they all came out at the same time. Look at TTL pre 1970 4 gate logic, after 1970 74181 alu 7416x 4 bit counters 7489 16x4 RAM. About 1973 Tristate logic and 32x8 , 256x4 PROMS. > Guy > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 11 02:35:43 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 01:35:43 -0600 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 3/10/2019 9:11 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > I have seen some claims that this was the first microprocessor -- although not a single chip > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Air_Data_Computer > > Will > I would say it was JUST too early to count as valid microprocessor. I expect they all were 'hand picked' from the few chips that tested as working. In some ways those designs seem better developed that the 'consumer' computer products that came out. I would say the IBM 360 halted any real progress since the 1960's with packing 4 8 bit BCD/text characters in a 32 bit word. I like 10/20 bits or 12/24 bits as a computer word length with byte addressing. IBM 360 32 bits 16 word reg file - 16 bit word. PDP 11 8 word reg file 16 bit word. RISC 16 word reg file - 16 bit word. RISC 256 word reg file 32 bit word. Mostly the same format as reg to reg and load/store as the be the model for most computer languages around 1970 ish. WOW a new university computer from IBM ( 360 or clone) or a PDP 11 for the lab. I was just reading somewhere , a single user ? linux machine had 233 threads going. What would that be like multi-user when it starts thrashing? I think PDP8/e time sharing @ 110 baud got more real work done. In hindsight, only after the fast 4K x 1 dynamic ram came out did computing make it from the lab to the public with 16KB for OS and 32KB+ for user programs. CP/M (8080) and FLEX (6800). The lack of hefty card edge connectors like for the S100 bus has me developing a 3 card cpu using 72 pin .156" pitch and 50 pin .156" pitch card edge connectors for a 12/24 bit CPU. Emulated I/O planned is a TTY (terminal 1200 baud) and RK05 disc (PDP8) on a SDC card. The time frame is 1975 ish with the advent of 256x8 PROM's and 2901's and 74LS TTL with 250ns 4K DRAMS. The bare machine is just burned today into a ALTERA DE1 FPGA development kit. Right now I am looking for few good books on a SIMPLE OS and a SIMPLE programing language in the 1975 to 1980 time frame. The catch is for now disk I/O is 12 bit words packed into 2 8 bit bytes. While it is TOO late to implement, a 8" floppy could be formatted using GCR to give 8 512 (12 bit word) sectors per track using ballpark calulations. Ben. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 11 03:49:21 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 01:49:21 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <42869262-7a8f-5878-7425-7d0b288224e9@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <42869262-7a8f-5878-7425-7d0b288224e9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 2019-Mar-10, at 3:59 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >>> Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >>> calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >>> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by >>> the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us >>> baby-boomers can attest to. . . . > Here is a little bit of info on it: > http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html On 2019-Mar-10, at 10:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/2019 7:30 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > >>> Here is a little bit of info on it: >>> http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html >> That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. >> The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 >> I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) >> The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? > Looking at the vintage calculator page, I would give the "FAR EAST" my vote for the first processor type chips. Everything was in-house development you can say they all came out at the same time. Look at TTL > pre 1970 4 gate logic, after 1970 74181 alu 7416x 4 bit counters 7489 16x4 RAM. About 1973 Tristate logic and 32x8 , 256x4 PROMS. If you read the link provided by Will, the Cal-tech was four ICs, not one. It was a forward-thinking lab R&D project which you would expect to be ahead of the IC technology on the market. It would be several more years, ca. 1971 before the complete logic for a calculator was stuffed onto one chip and available on the market, so coincident in time with the 4004. There was the TMS-0100 series from TI , single-chip calculators, 1971. https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ti/tms0100 TI and others did produce some calculator chip-sets (calc on several dedicated LSI chips) for the market prior to the single-chip implementations. No, the first 'processor-type' chips didn't come out of the 'far east'. The Japanese were producing calculators with hard-wired / random logic / dedicated state-machine architectures in the late 60s. With the advent of LSI, they came to the Americans to get chips designed, resulting in one case in the 4004. See also the TMS1795 (1971) and TMS1000 (1974). Rockwell was another of the big players. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 11 03:50:14 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 01:50:14 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <42f6a5be-8a1f-c751-4427-9684f3df188a@bitsavers.org> References: <42f6a5be-8a1f-c751-4427-9684f3df188a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2019-Mar-10, at 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 3/10/19 2:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by >> the mid-70s. > > Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion. The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital electronic device to be put in the hands of the consumer. Yes, all of us here know there were digital computers and other digital electronic devices around many years before, but the digital pocket calculator has a significant place at the beginnings of the transition to the ubiquity of such technology in everyday life, as opposed to being behind-the-scenes in business, labs, and industry. One can argue the transition would have happened without the pocket-calculator market - just how influential it was in driving the innovation can be debated - but the historical fact is it was there, and a large market in the context. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 05:42:59 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 06:42:59 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: <42f6a5be-8a1f-c751-4427-9684f3df188a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 4:50 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2019-Mar-10, at 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/10/19 2:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >> Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > >> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly > underway by > >> the mid-70s. > > > > Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! > > > It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion. > > The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital electronic > device to be put in the hands of the consumer. > > Yes, all of us here know there were digital computers and other digital > electronic devices around many years before, > but the digital pocket calculator has a significant place at the > beginnings of the transition to the ubiquity of such technology in everyday > life, > as opposed to being behind-the-scenes in business, labs, and industry. > > One can argue the transition would have happened without the > pocket-calculator market - > just how influential it was in driving the innovation can be debated - but > the historical fact is it was there, > and a large market in the context. > Reading this thread... > Not sure why this suddenly became a thing to debate, but I will add that the multifunction function 1960s calculators were called "desktop computers" by publishers then https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=536 Also, I did an talk at HOPE on the subject of the how the early handheld calculator class fit into the development of micro computers a few years later. The talk was my take on the subject anyway. Bottom line, one should avoid putting the modern 2019 definition a microcomputer/personal computer into what people were talking about in the mid 60s into the 70s "small/personal/microcomputer". Also, the significance of the single chip vs multi chip or single board CPU...is independent of the intended use or capacity/capabilities of the computer they went into. Over time the significance of a "single chip" CPU will fade. Modern computers no longer rely on this approach anyway, it was only a blip in time that "single chip cou" mattered as much. My opinion of course Bill Bill > From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Mon Mar 11 05:57:04 2019 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 21:57:04 +1100 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: <42f6a5be-8a1f-c751-4427-9684f3df188a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Talking of calculators, my first full time job was selling HP calculators and Apple computers which was appropriate, but not necessary for my second full time job as a calculator. Yes my job title was calculator, where I did actuarial calculations on insurance products for variations. So I went from selling them, to being one :) //m On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 9:43 pm, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 4:50 AM Brent Hilpert via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 2019-Mar-10, at 5:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/10/19 2:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > >> Historians, though not all, credit this development as the > > >> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly > > underway by > > >> the mid-70s. > > > > > > Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! > > > > > > It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion. > > > > The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital > electronic > > device to be put in the hands of the consumer. > > > > Yes, all of us here know there were digital computers and other digital > > electronic devices around many years before, > > but the digital pocket calculator has a significant place at the > > beginnings of the transition to the ubiquity of such technology in > everyday > > life, > > as opposed to being behind-the-scenes in business, labs, and industry. > > > > One can argue the transition would have happened without the > > pocket-calculator market - > > just how influential it was in driving the innovation can be debated - > but > > the historical fact is it was there, > > and a large market in the context. > > > > Reading this thread... > > > > Not sure why this suddenly became a thing to debate, but I will add that > the multifunction function 1960s calculators were called "desktop > computers" by publishers then > > https://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread_record.cfm?id=536 > > Also, I did an talk at HOPE on the subject of the how the early handheld > calculator class fit into the development of micro computers a few years > later. The talk was my take on the subject anyway. > > Bottom line, one should avoid putting the modern 2019 definition a > microcomputer/personal computer into what people were talking about in the > mid 60s into the 70s "small/personal/microcomputer". > > Also, the significance of the single chip vs multi chip or single board > CPU...is independent of the intended use or capacity/capabilities of the > computer they went into. Over time the significance of a "single chip" CPU > will fade. Modern computers no longer rely on this approach anyway, it was > only a blip in time that "single chip cou" mattered as much. > > My opinion of course > > Bill > > Bill > > > > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 11 09:09:42 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:09:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Pioneers of computing Message-ID: <20190311140942.A36E718C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brent Hilpert >>> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >>> Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >>> calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >>> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway >>> by the mid-70s. >> Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! > It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion. > The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital electronic > device to be put in the hands of the consumer. It's not clear which element of the original post that Al was referring to; I saw several things I might disagree with: - Unless you look at the date carefully, the notion that TI's work developing chips was intended to replace the calculator. - The notion that it was calculators that drove the development of micros; Intel had actually started work on a micro for Datapoint, which was eventually released as the 8008, _before_ they started on the 4004 for Busicom. I'd have to think long and hard before I rendered a judgement on how important digital pocket calculators were to where we are today. My initial reaction is to say 'not very', though - early personal computers, centered on Silicon Valley, were mostly driven by having, well, a personal computer. It's not clear that widespread ownership of personal calculators did anything to drive that. Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 10:01:21 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 15:01:21 +0000 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <20190311140942.A36E718C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190311140942.A36E718C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Calculators are clearly a step in the progression. Also, clearly not the beginning. To pick any one even and say that was the beginning is absurd. There are to many steps involved. The need to do mathematical calculations was clearly a driving force but that goes back before Babbage. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:09 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Pioneers of computing > From: Brent Hilpert >>> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >>> Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >>> calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >>> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway >>> by the mid-70s. >> Scotty, more power to the Reality Distortion Field! > It's not an out-to-lunch suggestion. > The digital pocket calculator was the first mass-market digital electronic > device to be put in the hands of the consumer. It's not clear which element of the original post that Al was referring to; I saw several things I might disagree with: - Unless you look at the date carefully, the notion that TI's work developing chips was intended to replace the calculator. - The notion that it was calculators that drove the development of micros; Intel had actually started work on a micro for Datapoint, which was eventually released as the 8008, _before_ they started on the 4004 for Busicom. I'd have to think long and hard before I rendered a judgement on how important digital pocket calculators were to where we are today. My initial reaction is to say 'not very', though - early personal computers, centered on Silicon Valley, were mostly driven by having, well, a personal computer. It's not clear that widespread ownership of personal calculators did anything to drive that. Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 10:21:59 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 11:21:59 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <42869262-7a8f-5878-7425-7d0b288224e9@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <689a33c6-48af-325d-27ac-a3d817f67adf@gmail.com> On 03/11/2019 04:49 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-Mar-10, at 3:59 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: >>> On 3/10/2019 3:18 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >>>> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >>>> Instruments created an integrated circuit designed to replace the >>>> calulator. Historians, though not all, credit this development as the >>>> beginning of the electronic-computing revolution that was truly underway by >>>> the mid-70s. Vintage/classic computing our hobby goes back that far as us >>>> baby-boomers can attest to. > . . . >> Here is a little bit of info on it: >> http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html > > On 2019-Mar-10, at 10:48 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> On 3/10/2019 7:30 PM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> Here is a little bit of info on it: >>>> http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html >>> That's fascinating, thanks. I'd never heard of it. >>> The Intel 4004 came out in 1971. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_4004 >>> I'd understood that was the first chip that could be considered a 'processor' (though it required some support chips to do anything.) >>> The TI Cal-Tech design was begun in 1965 and they had a working calculator in 1967. I wonder if the chips in that had any kind of code programmability? >> Looking at the vintage calculator page, I would give the "FAR EAST" my vote for the first processor type chips. Everything was in-house development you can say they all came out at the same time. Look at TTL >> pre 1970 4 gate logic, after 1970 74181 alu 7416x 4 bit counters 7489 16x4 RAM. About 1973 Tristate logic and 32x8 , 256x4 PROMS. > > If you read the link provided by Will, the Cal-tech was four ICs, not one. > It was a forward-thinking lab R&D project which you would expect to be ahead of the IC technology on the market. > > It would be several more years, ca. 1971 before the complete logic for a calculator was stuffed onto one chip and available on the market, > so coincident in time with the 4004. > There was the TMS-0100 series from TI , single-chip calculators, 1971. > https://en.wikichip.org/wiki/ti/tms0100 > > TI and others did produce some calculator chip-sets (calc on several dedicated LSI chips) for the market prior to the single-chip implementations. > > No, the first 'processor-type' chips didn't come out of the 'far east'. > The Japanese were producing calculators with hard-wired / random logic / dedicated state-machine architectures in the late 60s. > With the advent of LSI, they came to the Americans to get chips designed, resulting in one case in the 4004. > > See also the TMS1795 (1971) and TMS1000 (1974). > Rockwell was another of the big players. > First I prefix thing with how many of you were over the age of 8 or 10 at the time of the introduction of the calculator? OK, I was well over that by then.? I started in Jr high with a slipstick (slide rule) as an early techno geek so I got to see the industry develop and yes the desk sized computers were easily early on but the key thing is pocket calculator just like the Pocket transistor radio.? Each were of similar level of change. radios weren't a new idea but mass produced and cheap? pocket sized was.? So the pocket calculator was big and when the cost got under 50$ then everyone wanted it.? I was an early adopter of the Ti 8 digit 4 banger (-+/*) (TMS103) and took that to college in the very early 70s.? After that I'd seen and gotten to use the famous HP65 (then about 650$).? It was a very different market and use for the pocket calc than the desktop calc.? The biggest part of the desktop was printing, the transactional record of what was done. The key is we (users and market) went from slide rules in about 69-70 to calculators in 71-72 and they were everywhere by 74 and prices dropping very fast. As to microcomputers and calculators I see them on the parallel path as they both required the same technologies to be present to be able to make wither but one was market driven and the other was technology driven.? The calculator is however become a dead end in that it never advanced beyond a point then it was a computer.? Its utility however is every cell phone has one. The CADC Central air data computer was the fly by wire for the F14 and was a multi-chip system and programmable, making it the first LSI micro.? The question of single chip is moot as it was the later 70s with TMS1000, F8, and 8048 that would put all of the computer functions on one chip. The 8080/6502/6800/and friends were all multichip to realize even a simple functioning system. Oddly science fiction had computers but calculators were not part of their forecast..? I know of only one example that had pocket/portable calculator. Allison From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Mar 11 11:29:04 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 11:29:04 -0500 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <5C868CD0.7010801@pico-systems.com> On 03/11/2019 02:35 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > IBM 360 32 bits 16 word reg file - 16 bit word. > > While some 360 models had a hardware architecture of 8, 16, or even 64 bits, all of the 360s (except the model 20, which was not really a 360) had 16 32-bit registers as the program saw it. Jon From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 12:13:30 2019 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:13:30 +0000 Subject: Pioneers of computing Message-ID: >Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 17:18:26 -0400 >From: Murray McCullough >Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >Instruments Merryman died on February 27. >From the New York Times (March 7, 2019): Jerry Merryman, Co-Inventor of the Pocket Calculator, Dies at 86 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/obituaries/jerry-merryman-dead.html Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 11 12:16:23 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:16:23 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> On 3/10/19 7:48 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > One has the TurboDOS backup/install media for a Televideo TS-816 that I got > from Don Maslin back in the day. I think the other one is related too, but > it was unmarked. > TS-816 tapes aren't QIC From pat at vax11.net Mon Mar 11 12:19:27 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:19:27 -0400 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Really? They're DC300 cartridges. On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 3/10/19 7:48 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > > One has the TurboDOS backup/install media for a Televideo TS-816 that I > got > > from Don Maslin back in the day. I think the other one is related too, > but > > it was unmarked. > > > > TS-816 tapes aren't QIC > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 11 12:32:15 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 10:32:15 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> If you open it up, it should have a DEI tape drive in it, which predates QIC The data coming off the tape is NRZ instead of GCR I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. This is a problem for a bunch of systems built in the early 80's (Zilog, Onyx, etc) I have a stack of tapes in the queue (incl an 816 tubodos tape) for me to get fixed-head 4 track reading working On 3/11/19 10:19 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > Really? They're DC300 cartridges. > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On 3/10/19 7:48 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > > One has the TurboDOS backup/install media for a Televideo TS-816 that I got > > from Don Maslin back in the day. I think the other one is related too, but > > it was unmarked. > > > > TS-816 tapes aren't QIC > From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 11 12:39:25 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:39:25 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <259815BD-322D-45CF-89CB-2F9FCFAE20A9@comcast.net> > On Mar 11, 2019, at 1:13 PM, Robert Feldman via cctalk wrote: > >> Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2019 17:18:26 -0400 >> From: Murray McCullough > > >> Back in 1965 Jack Kilby, Jerry Merryman and James Van Tassel at texas >> Instruments > > Merryman died on February 27. > > From the New York Times (March 7, 2019): > Jerry Merryman, Co-Inventor of the Pocket Calculator, Dies at 86 > https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/07/obituaries/jerry-merryman-dead.html > > Bob The WSJ had a very nice obit on him in the weekend issue. One interesting tidbit is that he learned electronics as a teenager by reading Terman's Radio Engineer Handbook. Wow. I have that book. It's a professional engineering textbook. I would hesitate to use it as an undergraduate college text (though it might have served in Merryman's youth, given that schools tended to teach better). I learned electronics as a teenager also, but I certainly didn't use anything as tough as Terman -- I had a book aimed at youth and graduated from there to the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook. paul From vax11.net at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 12:49:12 2019 From: vax11.net at gmail.com (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Ah, interesting. I've got a drives, but bad rollers (and one burned out EOT lamp to replace, which is annoying but should be easy enough). Any suggestions on sizes for the rollers? I have one that is starting to go, and the other one is goo already. I can probably guess at sizes but I thought I should ask first. I did think it's interesting that they used a SIO/2 in the system to read the tape. I think I realized it was 4 track NRZI encoded from the GEI manual, but didn't realise that (older) QIC wasn't. Patrick Finnegan On Mon, Mar 11, 2019, 13:32 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > If you open it up, it should have a DEI tape drive in it, which predates > QIC > The data coming off the tape is NRZ instead of GCR > > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. > > This is a problem for a bunch of systems built in the early 80's (Zilog, > Onyx, etc) > > I have a stack of tapes in the queue (incl an 816 tubodos tape) for me to > get fixed-head 4 track reading working > > > > On 3/11/19 10:19 AM, Patrick Finnegan wrote: > > Really? They're DC300 cartridges. > > > > On Mon, Mar 11, 2019 at 1:16 PM Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > wrote: > > > > > > > > On 3/10/19 7:48 PM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > > > > > One has the TurboDOS backup/install media for a Televideo TS-816 > that I got > > > from Don Maslin back in the day. I think the other one is related > too, but > > > it was unmarked. > > > > > > > TS-816 tapes aren't QIC > > > > From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 11 13:11:46 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 13:11:46 -0500 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation Message-ID: I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more lines). The pullups average about 470 ohms (1 is 1K, 1 is 220, the rest are 470), so at 5V the output has to sink a bit over 10ma, and all total 120ma. An Arduino Uno with an Ethernet shield would have 20 minus 5 lines available, in theory, but if one wants serial I/O as well for debugging, that sucks up 2 more lines - so only 13 available. And sinking 120ma would be a bit much though I could likely sprinkle inputs among the outputs to make it work so as to stay within the recommended sink limits, and at least initially have it never run out of tape, and tie Error down. http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/ArduinoPinCurrentLimitations So, I am thinking about an Arduino Mega, as it has more output groupings to sprinkle the sink current around, and 5V interface capability, and more pins to eventually support my PDP-8/L and PDP-12. (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like this? Any leads / ideas? JRJ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 13:17:22 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:17:22 -0400 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like > this? Any leads / ideas? Get an old BlackBox ABCD switch that can handle true 25 pin serial ports? It seems like every year at VCFMW there are a few in the free pile. -- Will From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Mar 11 13:39:25 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:39:25 +0000 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Jay, Have a look at www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/pc05-simh-pc.html If you are interested I can tell you more ? I can read and punch tape. PC05 + interface (PIC 18F4550) connects using RX/TX to USB to PC. Reading one character at a time works fine (speed some 20 char/sec, so-called start-stop mode). Reading in ?streaming mode? is probably some 300 char/sec, but I get unexplained ?out-of-paper? state sometimes, and reading stops (of course). To read from the PC05 reader you need IOP2, IOP4, and INT*. Maybe BUSY* is needed, not sure about that. INITIALIZE* is good to have as well. A few other signals (for example IOP1) needs to be connected to an appropriate level. And 8 data inputs, which need a pull-up resistor. Note that the data from the reader is inverted. To punch you only need IOP4 (IIRC) and of course 8 data outputs. As you know, reader and punch are two completely isolated devices. Greetz, Henk ________________________________ Van: cctech namens Jay Jaeger via cctech Verzonden: Monday, March 11, 2019 7:11:46 PM Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more lines). The pullups average about 470 ohms (1 is 1K, 1 is 220, the rest are 470), so at 5V the output has to sink a bit over 10ma, and all total 120ma. An Arduino Uno with an Ethernet shield would have 20 minus 5 lines available, in theory, but if one wants serial I/O as well for debugging, that sucks up 2 more lines - so only 13 available. And sinking 120ma would be a bit much though I could likely sprinkle inputs among the outputs to make it work so as to stay within the recommended sink limits, and at least initially have it never run out of tape, and tie Error down. http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/ArduinoPinCurrentLimitations So, I am thinking about an Arduino Mega, as it has more output groupings to sprinkle the sink current around, and 5V interface capability, and more pins to eventually support my PDP-8/L and PDP-12. (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like this? Any leads / ideas? JRJ From ed at groenenberg.net Mon Mar 11 13:55:41 2019 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:55:41 +0100 (CET) Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44548.10.10.10.2.1552330541.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> snip snip snip > > (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC > interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) > > BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like > this? Any leads / ideas? > > JRJ > Yes, see http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/pc05-simh-pc.html And in action : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l--OHNxXFeE The PC05 in question is mine, the interface are made by Henk Gooijen, the software in the vid is only supporting byte for byte, streaming mode is almost implemented. Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta 😆 From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 14:20:58 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:20:58 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Old Macs available References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> I am clearing out a storage space and will be offering up some of the old systems and miscellaneous peripherals currently stored there as I clear and sort things.? To start with I have the following available. If anyone is interested or knows where else to offer the various items contact me off list.? If I can't find anyone interested I'll probably just send things on to recycle as I need to clear and close the space. All of the following are base units, no keyboards or other external peripherals although I suspect there may be keyboards somewhere in the storage space but can't guarantee it. If I do find some I can pass them along with the units if interested. 1) Macintosh SE/30 - Appears to have some expansion card of some sort inside with with a 15 pin connector and what I think was a BNC connector? 2) Macintosh SE/30 - Has a ribbon cable coming out the expansion slot in the back but no idea what it connects to inside or anything else about it.3) Macintosh Plus 1Mb - This sounds like there might be something loose inside if you turn it over. All systems are in unknown state and unopened so I have no idea what is inside or what condition they may be in. Systems are located in Houston, TX. Contact me off list if you need any more info or interest in these systems. Thanks. David Williamswww.trailingedge.com From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 11 14:38:02 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:38:02 -0500 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84eb3425-05bb-00cf-2e5f-ffc2b04b9ffa@charter.net> On 3/11/2019 1:17 PM, William Donzelli wrote: >> BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like >> this? Any leads / ideas? > > Get an old BlackBox ABCD switch that can handle true 25 pin serial ports? > > It seems like every year at VCFMW there are a few in the free pile. > > -- > Will > That might be fine if the machines were right next to each other. Some of mine are not so close. An emulator would also be really convenient to use, and avoid wearing out paper tapes. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 11 14:43:55 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 14:43:55 -0500 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <543a3a10-5f93-5ac3-f3e1-eb403cab216f@charter.net> Hi, Henk. Cool - so sort of the complement of what I am considering doing - your interface allows connection of a real device to a simulated hardware processor. Your thorough documentation will be helpful in confirming the signals I plan to use. JRJ On 3/11/2019 1:39 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Hi Jay, > > Have a look at www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/tape/pc05-simh-pc.html > > > If you are interested I can tell you more ? > > ? > > I can read and punch tape. PC05 + interface (PIC 18F4550) connects using > RX/TX to USB to PC. > > Reading one character at a time works fine (speed some 20 char/sec, > so-called start-stop mode). > > Reading in ?streaming mode? is probably some 300 char/sec, but I get > unexplained ?out-of-paper? state sometimes, and reading stops (of course). > > ? > > To read from the PC05 reader you need IOP2, IOP4, and INT*. Maybe BUSY* > is needed, not sure about that. > > INITIALIZE* is good to have as well. A few other signals (for example > IOP1) needs to be connected to an appropriate level. And 8 data inputs, > which need a pull-up resistor. Note that the data from the reader is > inverted. > > ? > > To punch you only need IOP4 (IIRC) and of course 8 data outputs. > > As you know, reader and punch are two completely isolated devices. > > ? > > Greetz, > > Henk > > ? > > ? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* cctech namens Jay Jaeger via > cctech > *Verzonden:* Monday, March 11, 2019 7:11:46 PM > *Aan:* General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > *Onderwerp:* Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation > ? > I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not > enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around.? But most if not > all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could > move from machine to machine as needed.? Moving a PC05 around would be a > lot more work, and not every rack has room.? ;) > > So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, > down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12.? It looks like the emulator would > have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize? L, IOP2(1)/Select, > IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), > Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on > the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and > RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). > > So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more > lines). > > The pullups average about 470 ohms (1 is 1K, 1 is 220, the rest are > 470), so at 5V the output has to sink a bit over 10ma, and all total > 120ma. > > An Arduino Uno with an Ethernet shield would have 20 minus 5 lines > available, in theory, but if one wants serial I/O as well for debugging, > that sucks up 2 more lines - so only 13 available.? And sinking 120ma > would be a bit much though I could likely sprinkle inputs among the > outputs to make it work so as to stay within the recommended sink > limits, and at least initially have it never run out of tape, and tie > Error down. > > http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/ArduinoPinCurrentLimitations > > So, I am thinking about an Arduino Mega, as it has more output groupings > to sprinkle the sink current around, and 5V interface capability, and > more pins to eventually support my PDP-8/L and PDP-12. > > (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC > interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) > > BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like > this?? Any leads / ideas? > > JRJ From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Mar 11 16:37:39 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:37:39 -0400 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> On 03/11/2019 02:11 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: > I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not > enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not > all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could > move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a > lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) > > So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, > down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would > have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, > IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), > Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on > the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and > RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). > > So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more > lines). > > The pullups average about 470 ohms (1 is 1K, 1 is 220, the rest are > 470), so at 5V the output has to sink a bit over 10ma, and all total > 120ma. > > An Arduino Uno with an Ethernet shield would have 20 minus 5 lines > available, in theory, but if one wants serial I/O as well for debugging, > that sucks up 2 more lines - so only 13 available. And sinking 120ma > would be a bit much though I could likely sprinkle inputs among the > outputs to make it work so as to stay within the recommended sink > limits, and at least initially have it never run out of tape, and tie > Error down. > > http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/ArduinoPinCurrentLimitations > > So, I am thinking about an Arduino Mega, as it has more output groupings > to sprinkle the sink current around, and 5V interface capability, and > more pins to eventually support my PDP-8/L and PDP-12. > > (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC > interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) > > BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like > this? Any leads / ideas? > > JRJ The Uno or Nano is more than adequate. To do the data you need 8 bits but you can bit bang them out using two lines on a nano to a 74ls164.? The rest you use transistors (open collector) to do high current (though 5V, 1K pullup is only 5ma) and I'd do that to make the IO more rugged and ESD proof.? That covers the strobes and control lines.? Just using two lines to get the 8 data lines via a 164 frees enogh pins for there to be surplus IO lines. Then I can load the Uno (or nano) via USB or Serial? or use 4lines to interface a uSD loaded with tapes ( MCLK, MSI, MSO).? With 32K of program space the RIM and BIN load can be part of the standard code base. Then a library and software tool to load up the uSD or SD as usb to SD/uSD socket adapters are common.? It would be great to be able to get a file with all the common tapes on it. for loading into a 8 via a loader device. I've not done this for PDP-8 or 11 but I can easily envision it.? The Arduinos are often fast enough if not faster than the host so speed is not an issue. Allison From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 11 17:18:19 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 15:18:19 -0700 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> References: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> Message-ID: <07EB7062-51BB-452F-A136-935B0B7A5054@shaw.ca> On 2019-Mar-11, at 2:37 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 03/11/2019 02:11 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: >> I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not >> enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not >> all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could >> move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a >> lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) >> >> So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, >> down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would >> have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, >> IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), >> Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on >> the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and >> RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). >> >> So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more >> lines). . . . >> BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like >> this? Any leads / ideas? . . . > To do the data you need 8 bits but you can bit bang them out using two > lines on a nano to > a 74ls164. The rest you use transistors (open collector) to do high > current (though 5V, > 1K pullup is only 5ma) and I'd do that to make the IO more rugged and > ESD proof. That > covers the strobes and control lines. Just using two lines to get the 8 > data lines via a 164 > frees enogh pins for there to be surplus IO lines. . . . I've used an RPi for tasks like this in much the same way as Allison is describing - reduce the number of I/O pins needed on the modern microcontroller by serialising the legacy-device parallel data lines with a simple TTL shift register. 2-4 pins (CLK,LATCH,DIN,DOUT, depending on app) from the microcontroller can be translated to 8,16,32 or as many data lines as you need. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Mar 11 17:15:48 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 15:15:48 -0700 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> References: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AF6035A-2B9F-4D16-9ACA-19D9C65B938A@shaw.ca> On 2019-Mar-11, at 2:37 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 03/11/2019 02:11 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: >> I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not >> enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not >> all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could >> move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a >> lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) >> >> So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, >> down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would >> have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, >> IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), >> Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on >> the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and >> RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). >> >> So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more >> lines). . . . >> BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like >> this? Any leads / ideas? . . . > To do the data you need 8 bits but you can bit bang them out using two > lines on a nano to > a 74ls164. The rest you use transistors (open collector) to do high > current (though 5V, > 1K pullup is only 5ma) and I'd do that to make the IO more rugged and > ESD proof. That > covers the strobes and control lines. Just using two lines to get the 8 > data lines via a 164 > frees enogh pins for there to be surplus IO lines. . . . I've used an RPi for tasks like this in much the same way as Allison is describing - reduce the number of I/O pins needed on the modern microcontroller by serialising the legacy-device parallel data lines with a simple TTL shift register. 2-4 pins (CLK,LATCH,DIN,DOUT, depending on app) from the microcontroller can be translated to 8,16,32 or as many data lines as you need. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 17:45:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 15:45:25 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/11/19 10:49 AM, Patrick Finnegan via cctalk wrote: > Ah, interesting. > > I've got a drives, but bad rollers (and one burned out EOT lamp to replace, > which is annoying but should be easy enough). > > Any suggestions on sizes for the rollers? I have one that is starting to > go, and the other one is goo already. I can probably guess at sizes but I > thought I should ask first. I use 4mm ID silicone vacuum hose. Works well and requires no adhesive--just stretch it over the bare hub. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 18:32:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 16:32:25 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2045a25e-5fe5-bcee-bb34-30a00ae381a8@sydex.com> On 3/11/19 3:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I use 4mm ID silicone vacuum hose. Works well and requires no > adhesive--just stretch it over the bare hub. e.g. Something like ebay item 132808966973 I use the red stuff, but it comes in a variety of colors. I re-did the PVC vacuum hoses on my truck with great success a couple of years ago and had some left over. Thus far, I've reworked about 6 drives of various flavors and all work. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 11 18:49:26 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:49:26 -0400 Subject: Old Macs available In-Reply-To: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2019, at 3:20 PM, nospam212-cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: > > ... > 1) Macintosh SE/30 - Appears to have some expansion card of some sort inside with with a 15 pin connector and what I think was a BNC connector? 15 pin connector combined with BNC connector suggests it might be an Ethernet card -- original 10 Mb/s. The 15 pin connector would be the AUI (transceiver) connector. If the connector has a slide latch (to engage turret posts that take the place of the more common locking screws) that would be a pretty solid sign it's Ethernet. If so, the BNC connector should be insulated ground (plastic sleeve around the connector body so it doesn't contact the computer's chassis). The easiest way to connect such a device to current equipment is to find a 10BaseT transceiver. Any 10/100 switch should talk to that, and compliant Gigabit Ethernet devices will too (since the standard calls for them to go all the way back to 10 Mb/s) though I would be less confident of that in the real world. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 19:19:06 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:19:06 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> On 3/11/19 10:32 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > If you open it up, it should have a DEI tape drive in it, which predates QIC > The data coming off the tape is NRZ instead of GCR > > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. > > This is a problem for a bunch of systems built in the early 80's (Zilog, Onyx, etc) > > I have a stack of tapes in the queue (incl an 816 tubodos tape) for me to get fixed-head 4 track reading working I've got a 3M DCD-3 4-track drive if you're interested. It's been sitting around for a time and comes with a rackmount Lambda PSU that I'm certain needs recapping. I'm not sure what the 50-conductor ribbon cable interface is, but I suspect it's nothing standard. --Chuck From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Mon Mar 11 19:29:05 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:29:05 -0500 Subject: Old Macs available In-Reply-To: References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 2019-03-11 18:49, Paul Koning wrote: > 15 pin connector combined with BNC connector suggests it might be an > Ethernet card -- original 10 Mb/s. Which was pretty much my thought looking at it without opening up the system and looking at the card itself. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From drb at msu.edu Mon Mar 11 19:51:02 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 20:51:02 -0400 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: (Your message of Mon, 11 Mar 2019 17:19:06 -0700.) <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. Was this thing referred to as a "Funnel"? Maybe that was a Prime specific name though. De From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 11 20:23:13 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:23:13 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> References: <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6f8af491-e0a5-49eb-a7dd-3b9a610d3a18@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/19 5:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've got a 3M DCD-3 4-track drive if you're interested. I have some Kennedy drives that should work, just have to find the time to get to it. I'm trying to clear some 1/2" tapes off the shelves this week. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 11 20:27:35 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 18:27:35 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <8739b500-a200-7c5c-22e5-d514e9ad3ab1@bitsavers.org> On 3/11/19 5:51 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. > > Was this thing referred to as a "Funnel"? sounds familiar. several companies made 6400 bpi four-track non-serpentine drives DEI, Kennedy, TI, and 3M for example I'd have to check, but I think there was an ANSI standard for the tape format (predates the Quarter-Inch Committee). TI used them in disk/tape combos for the 990, DSD used Kennedy drives for the same purpose. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 21:00:24 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:00:24 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/11/19 5:51 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. > > Was this thing referred to as a "Funnel"? Maybe that was a Prime > specific name though. No, that was 3M; they had the "Funnel", the "Super Funnel" and the "Serpentine Funnel" as well as the "Streaker". --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 11 21:07:09 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 19:07:09 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <06eadeac-649c-e097-17a2-99fb98c0ad75@sydex.com> On 3/11/19 5:51 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I just double-checked and the drive pinouts match the DEI CMTD-3400 manual > > I know, it isn't obvious at all from the maint manual.. > > Was this thing referred to as a "Funnel"? Maybe that was a Prime > specific name though. > My wetware threw a parity error--the "funnel" "super funnel" "streaker" and "serpentine funnel" were DEI terms. hard keeping the players straight nowadays. --Chuck From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 11 21:21:26 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 21:21:26 -0500 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: <5AF6035A-2B9F-4D16-9ACA-19D9C65B938A@shaw.ca> References: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> <5AF6035A-2B9F-4D16-9ACA-19D9C65B938A@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 3/11/2019 5:15 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2019-Mar-11, at 2:37 PM, allison via cctech wrote: >> On 03/11/2019 02:11 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: >>> I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not >>> enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not >>> all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could >>> move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a >>> lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) >>> >>> So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, >>> down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would >>> have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, >>> IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), >>> Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on >>> the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and >>> RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). >>> >>> So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more >>> lines). > > . . . > >>> BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like >>> this? Any leads / ideas? > > . . . >> To do the data you need 8 bits but you can bit bang them out using two >> lines on a nano to >> a 74ls164. The rest you use transistors (open collector) to do high >> current (though 5V, >> 1K pullup is only 5ma) and I'd do that to make the IO more rugged and >> ESD proof. That >> covers the strobes and control lines. Just using two lines to get the 8 >> data lines via a 164 >> frees enogh pins for there to be surplus IO lines. > > . . . > > I've used an RPi for tasks like this in much the same way as Allison is describing - > reduce the number of I/O pins needed on the modern microcontroller by serialising > the legacy-device parallel data lines with a simple TTL shift register. > 2-4 pins (CLK,LATCH,DIN,DOUT, depending on app) from the microcontroller > can be translated to 8,16,32 or as many data lines as you need. > > I had thought about an RPi as well. But the RPi is it is 3.3v, requiring additional hardware, which I'd like to avoid. A 5V Arduino (or a PIC, for that matter) should be able to drive the interface card's inputs on its own. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 00:42:23 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 06:42:23 +0100 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: <06eadeac-649c-e097-17a2-99fb98c0ad75@sydex.com> References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <06eadeac-649c-e097-17a2-99fb98c0ad75@sydex.com> Message-ID: A few years back AJ Palmgren helped me recover data from a S8000 tape using his hacked QIC drive. He fed the data coming off the drive into a Saleae logic analyzer. I took the gigantic dumps and wrote a software decoder. The data on the tape are MFM encoded. It went pretty well and I could recover the entire tape. http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/others/zilog-s8000/extract-s8000-tapes So you can read these tapes by other means than the original drive. It just requires some tinkering with the drive to get the correct tracks and some software. From cube1 at charter.net Mon Mar 11 21:19:33 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 21:19:33 -0500 Subject: Thinking about PDP11 PC05 Emulation In-Reply-To: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> References: <5f82f631-f3bf-7ccd-7797-9fffe2703234@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0a6eb756-ec65-cbd8-6d5b-96a93fc2619d@charter.net> On 3/11/2019 4:37 PM, allison via cctech wrote: > On 03/11/2019 02:11 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech wrote: >> I have several PDP-11's in my collection (among other things), and not >> enough PC05 tape readers (or enough room) to go around. But most if not >> all of my machines have M7810 PC11 interfaces, and I have one I could >> move from machine to machine as needed. Moving a PC05 around would be a >> lot more work, and not every rack has room. ;) >> >> So, I took a look at what it might take to interface with an M7810 (or, >> down the road, a PDP-8/L or PDP-12. It looks like the emulator would >> have to accept as input just 3 lines (Initialize L, IOP2(1)/Select, >> IOP4(1)/Read) [It would not need the redundant Initialize H, IOP1(1), >> Qualify or Skip], and would have to drive 11 lines into the pullups on >> the M7810 (8 Data lines, IO Bus INT L/Reader Done L, Outtape/Error and >> RDR RUN L/RDR Busy L). >> >> So, a total of 14 interface lines. (The 8 or 12 would take a few more >> lines). >> >> The pullups average about 470 ohms (1 is 1K, 1 is 220, the rest are >> 470), so at 5V the output has to sink a bit over 10ma, and all total >> 120ma. >> >> An Arduino Uno with an Ethernet shield would have 20 minus 5 lines >> available, in theory, but if one wants serial I/O as well for debugging, >> that sucks up 2 more lines - so only 13 available. And sinking 120ma >> would be a bit much though I could likely sprinkle inputs among the >> outputs to make it work so as to stay within the recommended sink >> limits, and at least initially have it never run out of tape, and tie >> Error down. >> >> http://playground.arduino.cc/Main/ArduinoPinCurrentLimitations >> >> So, I am thinking about an Arduino Mega, as it has more output groupings >> to sprinkle the sink current around, and 5V interface capability, and >> more pins to eventually support my PDP-8/L and PDP-12. >> >> (I could do it with a PIC - did that for a Documation card reader to PC >> interface, but I am really tired of fighting Microchip's IDE.) >> >> BUT - it also occurs to me someone may have already done something like >> this? Any leads / ideas? >> >> JRJ > The Uno or Nano is more than adequate. > > To do the data you need 8 bits but you can bit bang them out using two > lines on a nano to > a 74ls164.? The rest you use transistors (open collector) to do high > current (though 5V, > 1K pullup is only 5ma) and I'd do that to make the IO more rugged and > ESD proof.? That > covers the strobes and control lines.? Just using two lines to get the 8 > data lines via a 164 > frees enogh pins for there to be surplus IO lines. > > Then I can load the Uno (or nano) via USB or Serial? or use 4lines to > interface a > uSD loaded with tapes ( MCLK, MSI, MSO).? > > With 32K of program space the RIM and BIN load can be part of the > standard code base. > > Then a library and software tool to load up the uSD or SD as usb to > SD/uSD socket adapters > are common.? It would be great to be able to get a file with all the > common tapes on it. > for loading into a 8 via a loader device. > > I've not done this for PDP-8 or 11 but I can easily envision it.? The > Arduinos are > often fast enough if not faster than the host so speed is not an issue. > > Allison > My plan is actually to use an Arduino Ethernet shield to load files (which uses 4 pins off of the Uno). As I believe I mentioned, I can stay within the Uno's or Mega's current sink limits by sprinkling outputs and inputs together in the various I/O banks. But unless I add additional hardware as you suggested, I am short an I/O pin unless I punt on out of tape (and have it never report that condition). I am trying to avoid having to add additional hardware, even transistors, if I can, as that makes it easier to replicate for others. JRJ From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Mon Mar 11 21:26:10 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 22:26:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Parts source Message-ID: <214673019.627965.1552357570934@email.ionos.com> This may or may not be new or useful to anyone here, but I came across this website by accident today. They have a considerable selection of rather hard to find parts for old home computers, game consoles, and even arcade machines. Figured I would send along the link. http://www.arcadecomponents.com/index.html "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Mar 11 21:45:04 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 11 Mar 2019 20:45:04 -0600 Subject: Parts source In-Reply-To: <214673019.627965.1552357570934@email.ionos.com> References: <214673019.627965.1552357570934@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <07d32caf-d14f-e0d9-c636-6a1ac612cf31@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/11/2019 8:26 PM, Will Cooke via cctech wrote: > This may or may not be new or useful to anyone here, but I came across this website by accident today. They have a considerable selection of rather hard to find parts for old home computers, game consoles, and even arcade machines. Figured I would send along the link. > http://www.arcadecomponents.com/index.html > This guy sells proms as well and can BURN them. http://www.eprompro.com/ From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Mar 12 02:08:25 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 00:08:25 -0700 Subject: The continuing story of a Rainbow 100 (Was: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list) In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: As noted in the subject, continuing the story of the Rainbow 100 that I rescued last year. The replacement PSU arrived today and I installed it. It came up to the Main System Menu, but I had forgot to plug the RX50 cable into the controller board and the RX50 power cable. Though it prompted to press a key, it did not respond when a key was pressed. I powered down and plugged that stuff in. When I powered it back up, the display showed a keyboard error and did not display the Main System Menu as before. All of the keyboard LEDs lit, then the last one started blicking accompanied by a pattern of beeps. I should have checked the LEDs on the system unit, but I only did it when the "Main Board interrupt off" message was displayed and it corresponded to Message Number 2. If I disconnect the keyboard, the system just displays a message about the keyboard. I was going to take a more systematic approach to diagnosing the issue tomorrow. Since the system "just" worked last time I powered it up, I wasn't expecting things not to work ... Any suggestions on what to look at? alan On 3/6/19 10:21 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alan Perry > wrote: > > > > On 3/6/19 5:15 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 4:36 PM Alan Perry via cctech >> > wrote: >> >> There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my >> question was never >> answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. >> >> According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: >> >> 2x 3200uF @ 16V >> 1x 2200uF @ 35V >> 2x 820uF @ 250V >> 1x 560uF @ 20V >> 1x 330uF @ 20V >> 3x 47uF @ 16V >> 1x 10uF @ 35V >> 1x 2uF @ 25V >> >> I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it >> actually works >> >> >> Cool. Has anybody tried to run an AT or ATX power supply with an >> adapter for the Rainbow? > > Do you have pinouts for the connectors on the power supply? > > > > The Rainbow 100 Technical Manual (page 3-30) has the following table: > > Table 3-11 Power Supply Connector (J8) Signals > Pin Signal Mnemonic Description > 1 AC Voltage Okay ACOKH This signal indicates the presence or absence > of valid ac power entering the power supply. When valid ac power is > present, this signal will be high. When the ac power is lower than the > required minimum input voltage, this signal will be low. > 2 Voltage Bias VBIAS This signal is connected to the communications > control register via a jumper on the system module. The jumper is > installed only for manufacturing testing. > 3 None This pin is missing to provide a key for the cable connector. > 4 -12 V -12 V input > 5,6 +12 V + 12 V input > 7,8,9 +5 V +5 V input > 10, II, 12, 13 Ground GND DC power return and signal ground > > Page 1-10 gives the following regulated values: > > +5.1 V ?6% over the current range of 2.5 A to 11.5A > +12.1 V ?6% over the current range of 0.6 A to 6.7A > -12 V ? 7% over the current range of 0.0 A to 0.15 A > > ~130W power draw max. > > Warner > >> Warner >> >> alan >> >> On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >> > >> > Hi, >> > >> > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow >> 100. Does >> > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of >> capacitors used >> > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? >> > >> > alan >> > >> > From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 03:21:54 2019 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 09:21:54 +0100 Subject: DEC RC25 / CDC 9457 lark disc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I always have been amazed by the complexity and peculiarity of fixed/removable hybrid discs like DEC RC25 and CDC 9457. Looking at some specifications found on the web, these drives look quite similar each other, even if these are completely different on an exterior / interface point of view... Maybe there's some compatibility between the two products? Thanks Andrea From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 05:24:45 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 11:24:45 +0100 Subject: Old Macs available In-Reply-To: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 23:13, nospam212-cctalk--- via cctalk wrote: > > 1) Macintosh SE/30 - Appears to have some expansion card of some sort inside with with a 15 pin connector and what I think was a BNC connector? So, an Ethernet card? I am willing to pay for the card and international shipping. You do not specify where you are; I am in Czechia. However I have an SE/30 and I don't need 2... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 12 10:35:19 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 08:35:19 -0700 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <06eadeac-649c-e097-17a2-99fb98c0ad75@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/11/19 10:42 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > A few years back AJ Palmgren helped me recover data from a S8000 tape using > his hacked QIC drive. Did you ever put the tape images on line anywhere? From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 11:17:46 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:17:46 +0100 Subject: Tape reading question In-Reply-To: References: <2979f0f5-95ae-d5b9-36da-861ae6772a09@sydex.com> <00b813f6-043d-825a-beb4-b760767a2246@bitsavers.org> <644dc5e5-ad6c-0085-b127-8323543abe8c@bitsavers.org> <20190312005102.D7AD81712E8@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <06eadeac-649c-e097-17a2-99fb98c0ad75@sydex.com> Message-ID: tisdag 12 mars 2019 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk : > > > On 3/11/19 10:42 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > A few years back AJ Palmgren helped me recover data from a S8000 tape > using > > his hacked QIC drive. > > Did you ever put the tape images on line anywhere? The image is a backup tar archive. It do contain files of more private nature. The backup is not complete since it spans two tapes. This means it is not of huge interest to the public. The second tape has not been recovered. All files extracted has been listed on the web page. In case someone is interested I could of course clean the archive from the private files. From imp at bsdimp.com Tue Mar 12 11:36:20 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 10:36:20 -0600 Subject: The continuing story of a Rainbow 100 (Was: Rainbow 100 PSU capacitor list) In-Reply-To: References: <12e44837-b9d9-d525-2535-2231e96b0975@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 1:08 AM Alan Perry wrote: > > As noted in the subject, continuing the story of the Rainbow 100 that I > rescued last year. > > The replacement PSU arrived today and I installed it. It came up to the > Main System Menu, but I had forgot to plug the RX50 cable into the > controller board and the RX50 power cable. Though it prompted to press a > key, it did not respond when a key was pressed. > > I powered down and plugged that stuff in. When I powered it back up, the > display showed a keyboard error and did not display the Main System Menu as > before. All of the keyboard LEDs lit, then the last one started blicking > accompanied by a pattern of beeps. I should have checked the LEDs on the > system unit, but I only did it when the "Main Board interrupt off" message > was displayed and it corresponded to Message Number 2. If I disconnect the > keyboard, the system just displays a message about the keyboard. > > I was going to take a more systematic approach to diagnosing the issue > tomorrow. Since the system "just" worked last time I powered it up, I > wasn't expecting things not to work ... > > Any suggestions on what to look at? > I'd check the following things: (1) pull apart all the connections, especially for ones you've done recently. Use a bright light and look for bent pins. Before pulling apart, make sure it was seated properly (though often it's impossible).Also make sure cards are fully seated, diagnostics can fail if they aren't. (2) Double check all things are connected. The diagnostics are very picky. (3) Be very careful. This sounds like some issues I've had. I seated the RX-50 controller card improperly and bent a pin and it caused weird things to fail. Even a little side to side motion can cause a problem, at least it did for me. Warner > alan > > On 3/6/19 10:21 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 9:11 PM Alan Perry wrote: > >> >> >> On 3/6/19 5:15 PM, Warner Losh wrote: >> >> >> >> On Wed, Mar 6, 2019 at 4:36 PM Alan Perry via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> There was a lot of related discussion to this, but my question was never >>> answered. Now I seem to have found the answer myself. >>> >>> According to a post on VCF Forums, here is the list: >>> >>> 2x 3200uF @ 16V >>> 1x 2200uF @ 35V >>> 2x 820uF @ 250V >>> 1x 560uF @ 20V >>> 1x 330uF @ 20V >>> 3x 47uF @ 16V >>> 1x 10uF @ 35V >>> 1x 2uF @ 25V >>> >>> I went ahead and ordered a (claimed) working PSU. Hope it actually works >>> >> >> Cool. Has anybody tried to run an AT or ATX power supply with an adapter >> for the Rainbow? >> >> >> Do you have pinouts for the connectors on the power supply? >> > > > The Rainbow 100 Technical Manual (page 3-30) has the following table: > > Table 3-11 Power Supply Connector (J8) Signals > Pin Signal Mnemonic Description > 1 AC Voltage Okay ACOKH This signal indicates the presence or absence of > valid ac power entering the power supply. When valid ac power is present, > this signal will be high. When the ac power is lower than the required > minimum input voltage, this signal will be low. > 2 Voltage Bias VBIAS This signal is connected to the communications > control register via a jumper on the system module. The jumper is installed > only for manufacturing testing. > 3 None This pin is missing to provide a key for the cable connector. > 4 -12 V -12 V input > 5,6 +12 V + 12 V input > 7,8,9 +5 V +5 V input > 10, II, 12, 13 Ground GND DC power return and signal ground > > Page 1-10 gives the following regulated values: > > +5.1 V ?6% over the current range of 2.5 A to 11.5A > +12.1 V ?6% over the current range of 0.6 A to 6.7A > -12 V ? 7% over the current range of 0.0 A to 0.15 A > > ~130W power draw max. > > Warner > > Warner >> >> >>> alan >>> >>> On 2/27/19 10:22 AM, Alan Perry via cctech wrote: >>> > >>> > Hi, >>> > >>> > I think that I need to re-cap the power supply in a Rainbow 100. Does >>> > anyone here know if anyone has put together a list of capacitors used >>> > in the power supply that I can use to order parts? >>> > >>> > alan >>> > >>> >>> >> > From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 12:29:25 2019 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (null) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 10:29:25 -0700 Subject: Old Macs available In-Reply-To: References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <757BB7A5-1F82-4A24-923F-78A57CEE930A@gmail.com> Liam, he clearly says he?s in Houston in the post. > On Mar 12, 2019, at 03:24, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 23:13, nospam212-cctalk--- via cctalk > wrote: >> >> 1) Macintosh SE/30 - Appears to have some expansion card of some sort inside with with a 15 pin connector and what I think was a BNC connector? > > So, an Ethernet card? > > I am willing to pay for the card and international shipping. You do > not specify where you are; I am in Czechia. > > However I have an SE/30 and I don't need 2... > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 12:59:47 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 12:59:47 -0500 Subject: Old Macs available In-Reply-To: References: <91466735.3664739.1552332058237.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <91466735.3664739.1552332058237@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6ac395918445bb126123d4e92b445f4b@yahoo.com> The Mac SEs have been spoken for already. Liam - if things fall through I'll keep you in mind for the card but right now it looks like it is already taken. Sorry. I'll have several more items to make available soon. David Williams www.trailingedge.com On 2019-03-12 05:24, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 11 Mar 2019 at 23:13, nospam212-cctalk--- via cctalk > wrote: >> >> 1) Macintosh SE/30 - Appears to have some expansion card of some sort >> inside with with a 15 pin connector and what I think was a BNC >> connector? > > So, an Ethernet card? > > I am willing to pay for the card and international shipping. You do > not specify where you are; I am in Czechia. > > However I have an SE/30 and I don't need 2... From ken.s.moser at icloud.com Tue Mar 12 13:23:55 2019 From: ken.s.moser at icloud.com (Kenneth Moser) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 14:23:55 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home References: Message-ID: I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump if I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... Ken Moser 703.587.3868 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 12 13:51:50 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 11:51:50 -0700 Subject: DEC RC25 / CDC 9457 lark disc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53F9544D-8B1C-4B72-B21A-049724496790@shaw.ca> On 2019-Mar-12, at 1:21 AM, shadoooo via cctech wrote: > I always have been amazed by the complexity and peculiarity of > fixed/removable hybrid discs like DEC RC25 and CDC 9457. > Looking at some specifications found on the web, these drives look quite > similar each other, even if these are completely different on an exterior / > interface point of view... > Maybe there's some compatibility between the two products? Comparing an RC25 cartridge in my hands with pics of a 9457 cartridge online; at a quick glance they look similar, with the two angled corners and grip area. However they actually have significant differences: - the RC25 has a sliding door over the hub mount, while the 9457 doesn't, - the head-arm access door is very different between the two, - the hub attachment appears to be different. So it doesn't look like the cartridges would be swappable in either direction. Whether there might be compatibility at the platter/encoding level I have no idea. The concept, platter size, and time period are similar enough that one would wonder whether they shared some development history, such as (speculating) initial dev by CDC and licensed and repackaged by DEC. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 16:51:00 2019 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:51:00 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing Message-ID: Thanks for the info on chip made by Texas Instruments. It was used in a pocket/plug-in calculator I had while working as a payroll clerk back in the early 70s. The link is: http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/ti_cal-tech1.html I?ve written in my book on the History of the Microcomputer a history of the processing chip as the timeline follows an approximation of: Late *1950*s ? patent on integrated circuit by Texas Instruments *1950*s to *1960*s ? move from vacuum tubes to TTL technology programs/functions in ROM *1970*s ? 4004 to 8008 to 8086 -> This begins the era of electronic computerization of society. -> programmable by user and/or firmware We are now in the early human era of the electronification-computerization of society. *Classic Computing* takes us back to the very early years. Happy computing! From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 12 16:54:22 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 14:54:22 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> On Mar 12, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Kenneth Moser via cctalk wrote: > > I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump if I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... You haven?t said where you are or the timeframe in which you?re trying to find it a home. -- Chris From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Mar 12 17:14:20 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:14:20 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> References: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <47CC5A89-5A91-4184-880F-797FC880AFAD@avanthar.com> > On Mar 12, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > > On Mar 12, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Kenneth Moser via cctalk wrote: >> >> I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump if I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... > > You haven?t said where you are or the timeframe in which you?re trying to find it a home. > > ? Chris Based on his area code, he?s in Virginia, near Washington DC. So far enough that I can?t be tempted, and this is one of the very few items I?d find tempting. :-) Zane From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 12 17:25:32 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 18:25:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home Message-ID: <20190312222532.7AF2818C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Zane Healy > Based on his area code, he's in Virginia, near Washington DC. So far > enough that I can't be tempted That's a small enough machine that it wouldn't cost much to ship (via Pak-Mail or similar, if the current owner's not up for dealing with shipping). I'm not too far from DC, but it's still 6 hours on the road for a round-trip, so not too resource-effective for me to go get it. Noel From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Mar 12 17:30:58 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:30:58 -0700 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <47CC5A89-5A91-4184-880F-797FC880AFAD@avanthar.com> References: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> <47CC5A89-5A91-4184-880F-797FC880AFAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > Based on his area code, he?s in Virginia, near Washington DC. So far enough that I can?t be tempted, and this is one of the very few items I?d find tempting. :-) You can?t really base anything on that, most people use mobile phones these days and mobile phone area codes have little to no correlation with one?s location. -- Chris From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 15:56:51 2019 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:56:51 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/60 Print Sets Message-ID: Many years ago I gave away some PDP 11/60 hardware to someone on this list but don't recall who it was (Ethan maybe?). Anyway, I have recently discovered a stack of various print sets that I believe went with that system and would like to send them along. If you recall that long past transaction (10 years ago maybe? More? Less? Don't recall exactly, old age is killing my memory) please contact me so I can make arrangements for these. And if you aren't interested please let me know so I can see if anyone else is interested in them. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Mar 12 18:17:48 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 17:17:48 -0600 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/12/19 12:23 PM, Kenneth Moser via cctalk wrote: > I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump > if I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... Where are you and your old friend located? Have you posted your offer to any of the comp.os.vms, comp.sys.dec, or comp.sys.dec.micro newsgroups? There might even be someone on the TUHS mailing list which would like it to run BSD on. I feel sure that someone would be interested in it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 12 19:23:50 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:23:50 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> > On Mar 12, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I?ve written in my book on the History of the Microcomputer a history of > the processing chip as the timeline follows an approximation of: > > Late *1950*s ? patent on integrated circuit by Texas Instruments > > *1950*s to *1960*s ? move from vacuum tubes to TTL technology > > programs/functions in ROM You turned two steps into one: vacuum tubes to discrete transistors (1958 to mid 1960s) then transistors to TTL SSI ICs (1965-1975 or so), then CMOS and LSI. With some detours -- some high end computers using ECL, for example. Also, when you said ROM you probably meant semiconductor ROM (mask ROM); earlier there was core ROM, invented (two variations, one in the USA and one in Holland, apparently independently) around 1957 and first appearing in a commercial computer in the 1958 Electrologica X1. paul From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Tue Mar 12 19:49:13 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 19:49:13 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: References: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> <47CC5A89-5A91-4184-880F-797FC880AFAD@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <1edbc98a-938c-6fd1-e96b-6761fb47a76a@thereinhardts.org> On 3/12/2019 5:30 PM, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 12, 2019, at 3:14 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> Based on his area code, he?s in Virginia, near Washington DC. So far enough that I can?t be tempted, and this is one of the very few items I?d find tempting. :-) > You can?t really base anything on that, most people use mobile phones these days and mobile phone area codes have little to no correlation with one?s location. > > -- Chris > > > True. I don't have a land line and my cell is left over from living in Ohio so my 513 area code won't give anyone any hints about where I am (Hint: they say Yee haw a lot down here). BTW, If this VAX can't find a home and is destined for a dumpster, I'll hold it as long as necessary.? I'm very close to Fort Worth, TX (Okay, I gave it away...) -- John H. Reinhardt From pat at vax11.net Tue Mar 12 19:56:46 2019 From: pat at vax11.net (Patrick Finnegan) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:56:46 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> References: <72830796-42F7-41E6-9213-CC6683D1B35D@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: The 703 area code appears to be in Virginia near DC, so that might be a good guess at his location. Patrick Finnegan On Tue, Mar 12, 2019, 17:54 Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > On Mar 12, 2019, at 11:23 AM, Kenneth Moser via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump if > I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... > > You haven?t said where you are or the timeframe in which you?re trying to > find it a home. > > -- Chris > > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 12 19:59:50 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 18:59:50 -0600 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <5C868CD0.7010801@pico-systems.com> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> <5C868CD0.7010801@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4432606e-0292-5098-e5e7-e9da92f20e73@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/11/2019 10:29 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/11/2019 02:35 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: >> IBM 360 32 bits 16 word reg file - 16 bit word. >> >> > While some 360 models had a hardware architecture of 8, 16, or even 64 > bits, all of the 360s (except the model 20, which was not really a 360) > had 16 32-bit registers as the program saw it. > > Jon > That needed to say Half Word. The point I was making was you went down from 36 bits to 32 bits and that loss of word size made everything follow a similar architecture model between different computer manufactures as there is only a few ways to format your opcodes to fit into half a word. A bit here, a bit there and WOW you need a bigger opcode space. Ben. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 12 20:50:12 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 20:50:12 -0500 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> References: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5C8861D4.9080608@pico-systems.com> On 03/12/2019 07:23 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mar 12, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> I?ve written in my book on the History of the Microcomputer a history of >> the processing chip as the timeline follows an approximation of: >> >> Late *1950*s ? patent on integrated circuit by Texas Instruments >> >> *1950*s to *1960*s ? move from vacuum tubes to TTL technology >> >> programs/functions in ROM > You turned two steps into one: vacuum tubes to discrete transistors (1958 to mid 1960s) then transistors to TTL SSI ICs (1965-1975 or so), then CMOS and LSI. With some detours -- some high end computers using ECL, for example. Yes, the IBM 360 was produced using discrete transistors and diodes on little ceramic hybrid modules until 1969 or so, when they finally moved into ICs. The IBM 360/85 (really a prototype of the 370/165) was built in their version of ECL, in 1968. Also, before TTL, there was RTL and DTL, and also MECL. > Also, when you said ROM you probably meant semiconductor ROM (mask ROM); earlier there was core ROM, invented (two variations, one in the USA and one in Holland, apparently independently) around 1957 and first appearing in a commercial computer in the 1958 Electrologica X1. > > IBM 360 models 30, 50 and 65 used capacitive ROM (they called it read only Storage) for their control store (microcode), called CROS, or CCROS for a semi-differential version in the 50 and 65. The 360/40 used transformers, so TROS for microcode. Jon From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Mar 12 21:10:12 2019 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 19:10:12 -0700 Subject: atex system in Houston Message-ID: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 21:15:34 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 02:15:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <649eeb77-05ac-bfa6-17fa-9c4db45242d6@9track.net> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> <33e5d297-dc95-9760-fe7a-df134d4c5840@yahoo.com> <649eeb77-05ac-bfa6-17fa-9c4db45242d6@9track.net> Message-ID: <1683840869.3593969.1552443334958@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Matt,?I did have the netrtg040.a file but it was corrupted. The one on the TU58 tape worked perfectly and I was finally able to install DECnet. The network does come up but goes right down with a synchronizing error. It's always something it seems. Should be all set once I get that figured out. Thanks again?Brian. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 7:21 AM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: On 07/03/2019 03:21, BGeezer via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I can see now that they are different. If I can't find a license > tape I'll probably put on 5.5 which I have as well. In fact I have > V1.0 on up. I'm running two Simh instances on each Raspberry Pi all > clustered and running DECnet and TCP/IP. I was hoping for a large mix > of machines and VMS versions so hopefully I can eventually find some > early licenses. Search for BE-X083A-BE and you should also find BE-X085A-BE and BE-DL08A-BE. Matt From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Tue Mar 12 21:15:34 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 02:15:34 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DECnet License for older VAX VMS In-Reply-To: <649eeb77-05ac-bfa6-17fa-9c4db45242d6@9track.net> References: <45822150.586109.1551913679818.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <45822150.586109.1551913679818@mail.yahoo.com> <879377a9-9dc4-a6e7-1f15-bd5ed71f1dda@yahoo.com> <53842B25-567B-4C81-98FE-8184C28BFA54@avanthar.com> <33e5d297-dc95-9760-fe7a-df134d4c5840@yahoo.com> <649eeb77-05ac-bfa6-17fa-9c4db45242d6@9track.net> Message-ID: <1683840869.3593969.1552443334958@mail.yahoo.com> Thanks Matt,?I did have the netrtg040.a file but it was corrupted. The one on the TU58 tape worked perfectly and I was finally able to install DECnet. The network does come up but goes right down with a synchronizing error. It's always something it seems. Should be all set once I get that figured out. Thanks again?Brian. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Sat, Mar 9, 2019 at 7:21 AM, Matt Burke via cctalk wrote: On 07/03/2019 03:21, BGeezer via cctalk wrote: > Yes, I can see now that they are different. If I can't find a license > tape I'll probably put on 5.5 which I have as well. In fact I have > V1.0 on up. I'm running two Simh instances on each Raspberry Pi all > clustered and running DECnet and TCP/IP. I was hoping for a large mix > of machines and VMS versions so hopefully I can eventually find some > early licenses. Search for BE-X083A-BE and you should also find BE-X085A-BE and BE-DL08A-BE. Matt From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 21:16:01 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 22:16:01 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/60 Print Sets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:36 PM David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > Many years ago I gave away some PDP 11/60 hardware to someone on this > list but don't recall who it was (Ethan maybe?). Yes. It was me. > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 12 21:16:01 2019 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 22:16:01 -0400 Subject: PDP 11/60 Print Sets In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 12, 2019 at 6:36 PM David Williams via cctalk wrote: > > Many years ago I gave away some PDP 11/60 hardware to someone on this > list but don't recall who it was (Ethan maybe?). Yes. It was me. > David Williams > www.trailingedge.com -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 12 23:02:55 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:02:55 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> References: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> Message-ID: <574c5311-6eb1-1075-8278-e7fb13000d2e@sydex.com> On 3/12/19 5:23 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 12, 2019, at 5:51 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> ... I?ve written in my book on the History of the Microcomputer a >> history of the processing chip as the timeline follows an >> approximation of: >> >> Late *1950*s ? patent on integrated circuit by Texas Instruments >> >> *1950*s to *1960*s ? move from vacuum tubes to TTL technology >> >> programs/functions in ROM > > You turned two steps into one: vacuum tubes to discrete transistors > (1958 to mid 1960s) then transistors to TTL SSI ICs (1965-1975 or > so), then CMOS and LSI. With some detours -- some high end computers > using ECL, for example. I recall that in the late 1960s, RTL and DTL were far more common IC families than TTL. ECL had several sub-families; the first was a bear to work with. I think bitsavers has a couple of old Motorola, TI and Fairchild IC databooks from that time. CMOS ICs, when they first came out, were glacially slow and could only get speed by running them at 15 volts or so. Except for some low-speed/low-power applications, they weren't really a contender for computer logic. This is a bit interesting in that Brattain, Bardeen and Shockley are credited in the popular press as having invented the transistor. However, that was a bit overstated; they had to re-word their patent application to state that they'd developed a "junction" transistor, when a patent search turned up the fact that a Hungarian immigrant named Julius Lilienfeld had obtained a patent on a field-effect transistor in 1930--a full year before he obtained a patent on the electrolytic capacitor (ever heard of those?. Dr. J applied for the patent in 1926, which is a bit mind-boggling, when you consider that tubes like the UV20A1 were introduced in 1924. It's those field-effect transistors that are widely used today, not Shockley and chums' bipolar cousins. Such is history and those who write accounts of it. Names like Atanasoff and Zuse are consigned to the dustbin of history, while Eckert and Mauchly get the historical mention. Ah well, some people still believe that Thomas Edison invented the incandescent lamp. Also, there was capacitor ROM as well as transformer ROM. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 12 23:12:01 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:12:01 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <4432606e-0292-5098-e5e7-e9da92f20e73@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <3.0.6.32.20190311123004.011b6bb8@mail.optusnet.com.au> <231179713.474098.1552273913476@email.ionos.com> <5C868CD0.7010801@pico-systems.com> <4432606e-0292-5098-e5e7-e9da92f20e73@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <924ec90c-d9a0-adc4-dd60-86bb7fd19ddd@sydex.com> On 3/12/19 5:59 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > That needed to say Half Word. The point I was making was you went > down from 36 bits to 32 bits and that loss of word size made > everything follow a similar architecture model between different > computer manufactures as there is only a few ways to format your > opcodes to fit into half a word. A bit here, a bit there and WOW you > need a bigger opcode space. Ben. It depends on how you design your instruction set. On the CDC 6000 series, most instructions were 15 bits (6 bits of opcode + 3 x 3 bits of registers--a 3-address architecture). Longer instructions were 30 bits. Because addresses were of 60-bit word granularity, instruction placement within a 15-bit parcel was important, as you couldn't just to a quarter-word address. I'd programmed S/360 before the CDC machines and soon learned that there wasn't a whole lot to be gained with byte addressability. CDC 6600 COBOL ran faster than the COBOL on a 360/195 (as measured by the Navy Audit Test suite) in spite of the fact that the 6600 has no decimal instructions and is word-addressable--such is the power of RISC. --Chuck From rick at rickmurphy.net Tue Mar 12 20:35:05 2019 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 21:35:05 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000-100 Free to a good home In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6a4f86d5-41cc-8639-f311-28a1645c4ca7@rickmurphy.net> On 3/12/2019 2:23 PM, Kenneth Moser via cctech wrote: > I have one, with some disks and other misc gear. Headed for the dump if I cannot find a home. Would prefer to find a home for my old friend... > > Ken Moser > 703.587.3868 Ken, Where are you located? I'm in Fairfax County (Annandale). ??? -Rick From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 08:31:11 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 09:31:11 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> > On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models. The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue. The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that useful. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 13 08:41:28 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 09:41:28 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 > > Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models. > Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?) > The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue. Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context on that: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-place-in-the-newsroom.html & https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s7dWM&dq=atex%20customers%201970s&pg=PA1827#v=onepage&q=atex%20customers%201970s&f=false --Toby > > The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that useful. > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 08:44:00 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 09:44:00 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <574c5311-6eb1-1075-8278-e7fb13000d2e@sydex.com> References: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> <574c5311-6eb1-1075-8278-e7fb13000d2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4CDB9D4D-93DF-438B-80C4-B19AF9EB5B80@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2019, at 12:02 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > ... > This is a bit interesting in that Brattain, Bardeen and Shockley are > credited in the popular press as having invented the transistor. > However, that was a bit overstated; they had to re-word their patent > application to state that they'd developed a "junction" transistor, when > a patent search turned up the fact that a Hungarian immigrant named > Julius Lilienfeld had obtained a patent on a field-effect transistor in > 1930--a full year before he obtained a patent on the electrolytic > capacitor (ever heard of those?. Dr. J applied for the patent in 1926, > which is a bit mind-boggling, when you consider that tubes like the > UV20A1 were introduced in 1924. It's those field-effect transistors > that are widely used today, not Shockley and chums' bipolar cousins. My father had an article about those FETs in his files somewhere, unfortunately it was lost years ago but I remember it. I think the semiconductor used was copper oxide. Interesting that they actually found this. There are many examples of the same thing being patented several times, or a thing being invented long after it was first built. An example of the former is frequency modulation (patented in 1927 by Idzerda, then in 1935 by Armstrong). An example of the latter is Abraham Lincoln's patent for what a Dutchman would recognize as a "camel" -- a device for carrying ships over shoals that goes back a century or two from Lincoln's patent. > Such is history and those who write accounts of it. Names like > Atanasoff and Zuse are consigned to the dustbin of history, while Eckert > and Mauchly get the historical mention. That's what makes it interesting to dig into the less known corners of technology history. I've enjoyed poking into Electrologica, which did a number of things early on, perhaps earlier than others that are well known or at least around the same time. The core ROM I mentioned is an example (it looks vaguely like Ken Olsen's design that became the Apollo Computer ROM, but the operation is different and somewhat more efficient, with a shorter read latency). They also seem to have been the first to deliver interrupts in a commercial computer as a standard feature. But because of location and limited sales, few people even know the company's name, let alone much about it. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 09:10:10 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:10:10 -0400 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: <4CDB9D4D-93DF-438B-80C4-B19AF9EB5B80@comcast.net> References: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> <574c5311-6eb1-1075-8278-e7fb13000d2e@sydex.com> <4CDB9D4D-93DF-438B-80C4-B19AF9EB5B80@comcast.net> Message-ID: > > This is a bit interesting in that Brattain, Bardeen and Shockley are > > credited in the popular press as having invented the transistor. > > However, that was a bit overstated; they had to re-word their patent > > application to state that they'd developed a "junction" transistor, when > > a patent search turned up the fact that a Hungarian immigrant named > > Julius Lilienfeld had obtained a patent on a field-effect transistor in > > 1930--a full year before he obtained a patent on the electrolytic > > capacitor (ever heard of those?. Dr. J applied for the patent in 1926, > > which is a bit mind-boggling, when you consider that tubes like the > > UV20A1 were introduced in 1924. It's those field-effect transistors > > that are widely used today, not Shockley and chums' bipolar cousins. Be careful handing out the praise. The idea of adding a external signals and biases to crystal detectors was an old trick from the 1920s. No one really knew what was going on, and no one really used this technology, simply because performance was beyond horrid - even original Audions worked better. -- Will From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 13 10:53:57 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 08:53:57 -0700 Subject: Pioneers of computing In-Reply-To: References: <33CB58ED-289B-45E9-BB79-A8BB749099C1@comcast.net> <574c5311-6eb1-1075-8278-e7fb13000d2e@sydex.com> <4CDB9D4D-93DF-438B-80C4-B19AF9EB5B80@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 3/13/19 7:10 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: > Be careful handing out the praise. The idea of adding a external > signals and biases to crystal detectors was an old trick from the > 1920s. No one really knew what was going on, and no one really used > this technology, simply because performance was beyond horrid - even > original Audions worked better. Sure--I recall reading an article from an issue of QST from the 1920s that reported an "oscillating crystal". One has to believe that negative resistance in solid materials had to have been discovered several times. There is a web site, http://www.sparkbangbuzz.com/ that demonstrates that a strip of galvanized steel can make a quite successful negative-resistance device, including several transmitters. The fellow even shows how to make a memristor using some brass and sulfur. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 12:05:37 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 13:05:37 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Wayne S wrote: > > Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I remember reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that system. So did DEC, the "classified management system" (CMS) was part of TMS-11. I spent some interesting times bug fixing it on site in Van Nuys. >> On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? >>>> >>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 >>> >>> Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models. >>> >> >> Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?) Could be. Your second reference mentions a max of 200 terminals; I'm pretty sure TMS-11 couldn't go that high even on a four node cluster (the largest I remember, not sure if in theory it could go higher). >>> The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue. >> >> Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context >> on that: >> >> >> https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-place-in-the-newsroom.html >> >> & >> https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s7dWM&dq=atex%20customers%201970s&pg=PA1827#v=onepage&q=atex%20customers%201970s&f=false That talks about direct to plate, text and graphics. I meant just the text. On the DEC product, you'd see a typical VT100 style typewriter font display, with line breaks and hyphenation shown only after you did "send to J&H" to have the line breaks calculated in a batch process. It wouldn't give you line breaks, or article length which is important to editors, in real time. I think Atex did provide J&H in real time. It might still have been typewriter font, so it wouldn't be a display showing the actual text with the letter shapes as printed, but for a newspaper editor that's not particularly important. TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display (4015? A BIG tube). And there was some experimental work to extend that to news page layout though there wasn't much interest in that apparently. And it could drive Harris 2200 terminals which were display ad creation devices (full graphics WYSIWIG displays) using the ugliest network protocol I've ever encountered. But the way the system was usually used (1978-1980 when I worked on it) was that output was generated in single column wide strips of film, which would then be pasted to page layout boards to produce the finished page layouts. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 12:15:26 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:15:26 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module Message-ID: Anybody had any luck with this configuration? I used VTServer to install it and everything works fine except for the very last step. It installs completely and boots from within VTServer with ra(0,0,0)unix. I issue the "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/def/rra0a count=1" and it completes successfully. But the disk still won't boot. I have tried it three times now with the same results. Suggestions? bill From jesse at cypress-tech.com Wed Mar 13 11:01:31 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 12:01:31 -0400 Subject: Looking for 12016-60002 HP Single Ended Cable Message-ID: <8193b3ea-cd06-b465-a44e-fd4e8cd3a61d@cypress-tech.com> 12016-60002 - SE Cable - card edge connector to 50-pin low density bail lock (M) - 2m (6.6ft) long If anyone has any of these, let me know, I can use about 4 of them. Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 11:56:20 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 16:56:20 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net>, <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I remember reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that system. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > >> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? >>> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 >> >> Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models. >> > > Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?) > > > >> The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue. > > Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context > on that: > > > https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-place-in-the-newsroom.html > > & > https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s7dWM&dq=atex%20customers%201970s&pg=PA1827#v=onepage&q=atex%20customers%201970s&f=false > > > > --Toby > > >> >> The "11-34 minicomputer... J-11 CPU" description is a bit strange. Possibly a dual CPU setup with one of each? But that seems strange because those two are from different generations, and interfacing them together would be tricky and not all that useful. >> >> paul >> >> > From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Mar 13 12:29:41 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:29:41 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Anybody had any luck with this configuration? > I used VTServer to install it and everything works fine > except for the very last step. It installs completely > and boots from within VTServer with ra(0,0,0)unix. I > issue the "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/def/rra0a count=1" and > it completes successfully. But the disk still won't boot. > I have tried it three times now with the same results. > > Suggestions? > > bill Are all the patches applied? IIRC, some of the later patches were around SCSI support. I know one of them is required for Viking QDT support, not sure about CMD. Mind you, I?ve never installed any flavor of UNIX on my PDP-11?s. Zane From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 12:35:39 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 10:35:39 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:29 AM Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Anybody had any luck with this configuration? > > I used VTServer to install it and everything works fine > > except for the very last step. It installs completely > > and boots from within VTServer with ra(0,0,0)unix. I > > issue the "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/def/rra0a count=1" and > > it completes successfully. But the disk still won't boot. > > I have tried it three times now with the same results. > > > > Suggestions? > > > > bill > > Are all the patches applied? IIRC, some of the later patches were around > SCSI support. I know one of them is required for Viking QDT support, not > sure about CMD. Mind you, I?ve never installed any flavor of UNIX on my > PDP-11?s. > Yes, you will need to apply the patches (I believe patch #448 is the one you need, but why not apply them all...), they fix the MSCP drivers & boot code for the Viking and CMD SCSI controllers. - Josh > > Zane > > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:09:54 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:09:54 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 10:29 AM Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Anybody had any luck with this configuration? > > > I used VTServer to install it and everything works fine > > > except for the very last step. It installs completely > > > and boots from within VTServer with ra(0,0,0)unix. I > > > issue the "dd if=/mdec/rauboot of=/def/rra0a count=1" and > > > it completes successfully. But the disk still won't boot. > > > I have tried it three times now with the same results. > > > > > > Suggestions? > > > > > > bill > > > > Are all the patches applied? IIRC, some of the later patches were around > > SCSI support. I know one of them is required for Viking QDT support, not > > sure about CMD. Mind you, I?ve never installed any flavor of UNIX on my > > PDP-11?s. > > > > Yes, you will need to apply the patches (I believe patch #448 is the one > you need, but why not apply them all...), they fix the MSCP drivers & boot > code for the Viking and CMD SCSI controllers. > > - Josh Item 3 in Patch #441 Subject: libvmf,cpp,rauboot,mkstr(1) fixes, ld feature (#441) Index: usr.lib/libvmf,lib/cpp,sys/mdec/rauboot.s,... 2.11BSD Description: 1. The libvmf (virtual memory using tmp files) routines could crash or hang an application if too many locked segments were requested. 2. The C preprocessor (cpp) had a memory leak which could cause it to run out of memory _and_ also failed to check the return status of calloc() which would cause cpp to fail ungracefully. 3. The MSCP bootblock would not work with a CMD CQD220 adaptor due to the bootblock relying on the (undocumented?) behaviour of DEC adaptors. 4. In the mkstr(1) manpage the usage example given used lseek(2) incorrectly. 5. The linker (ld) does not accept the '-g' flag which on other systems says to retain debuggin symbols. 6. creat() is no longer a system call, thus it is an error to have creat(2) instead of creat(3). From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 13 13:27:36 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:27:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Do those happen to have the fonts that DEC used in-house? From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 13:49:32 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 14:49:32 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as "firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I was sent there to learn on the spot. :-) Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+ pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom. TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing. There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big. Chicago Tribune, I think? It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college. paul > On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S wrote: > > Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys? > > I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big enough. > It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed IBM 3032 mainframe. > > I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time. > > Sent from my iPhone From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 13 19:07:20 2019 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 17:07:20 -0700 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> Paul K. wrote: > TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display (4015? A BIG tube). The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production DVST tube that Tektronix made. It was also used in the 4054 computer. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 13 19:40:18 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 20:40:18 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:07 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: > > Paul K. wrote: >> TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There > was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display > (4015? A BIG tube). > > The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was > the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production > DVST tube that Tektronix made. > It was also used in the 4054 computer. An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube -- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it was. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:23:31 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 11:23:31 -0700 Subject: Looking for 12016-60002 HP Single Ended Cable In-Reply-To: <8193b3ea-cd06-b465-a44e-fd4e8cd3a61d@cypress-tech.com> References: <8193b3ea-cd06-b465-a44e-fd4e8cd3a61d@cypress-tech.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 13, 2019 at 9:01 AM Jesse Dougherty via cctech wrote: > > 12016-60002 - SE Cable - card edge connector to 50-pin low density bail > lock (M) - 2m (6.6ft) long > > If anyone has any of these, let me know, I can use about 4 of them. > > Thanks > Jesse > Cypress Technology Inc > Good luck with that. Finding a 12016-60002 SCSI cable seems to be more difficult than finding a 12016A SCSI controller, which is difficult and expensive itself. The cables for the 12076A Ethernet controllers seems to be the same story. For example currently I see a few 12076A Ethernet controllers on eBay but no one ever lists the cables. The cables must have all gotten separated from the boards long ago. Common problem with all types of electronic gear. If you do manage to find a source of more cables than you need, post to the list that some are available. -Glen From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 13:37:55 2019 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 18:37:55 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> , <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys? I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big enough. It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed IBM 3032 mainframe. I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2019, at 10:05, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Mar 13, 2019, at 12:56 PM, Wayne S wrote: >> >> Atex, now Newscycle, also had a Classified Advertising system out at that time. I remember reading a article somewhere saying that Atex was going to use the J11 for that system. > > So did DEC, the "classified management system" (CMS) was part of TMS-11. I spent some interesting times bug fixing it on site in Van Nuys. > >>>> On Mar 13, 2019, at 06:41, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> On 2019-03-13 9:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> On Mar 12, 2019, at 10:10 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Hmmm, are these the atex racks seen lurking in the background of that recent storage space trawl down near Houston? >>>>> >>>>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-DEC-PDP-11-34-Minicomputer-With-Kennedy-Tape-Drive-J11-CPU-2-Terminals/123688125244 >>>> >>>> Interesting. Atex is, or was at one time anyway, a manufacturer of typesetting systems for newspapers. DEC was also in that business with Typeset-11 (TMS-11) but Atex was more successful, certainly for smaller newspapers because it used less expensive PDP11 models. >>> >>> Funny, I always associated it with big papers (I think the NYT used it?) > > Could be. Your second reference mentions a max of 200 terminals; I'm pretty sure TMS-11 couldn't go that high even on a four node cluster (the largest I remember, not sure if in theory it could go higher). > >>>> The "multi-processor bus" thing is curious. And I wonder what the terminals are like. If they are typesetting terminals, I think they support some sort of WYSIWYG editing setup -- that too was a competitive advantage vs. the "mark-up" approach (sort of like Runoff on steroids) that Typeset-11 offered. Looking at the keyboards would give a clue. >>> >>> Pretty sure Atex was pre-wysiwyg. This article may provide some context >>> on that: >>> >>> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/1991/03/17/business/can-atex-keep-its-proprietary-place-in-the-newsroom.html >>> >>> & >>> https://books.google.ca/books?id=IAGotP-IDocC&lpg=PA1827&ots=jEwR7s7dWM&dq=atex%20customers%201970s&pg=PA1827#v=onepage&q=atex%20customers%201970s&f=false > > That talks about direct to plate, text and graphics. I meant just the text. On the DEC product, you'd see a typical VT100 style typewriter font display, with line breaks and hyphenation shown only after you did "send to J&H" to have the line breaks calculated in a batch process. It wouldn't give you line breaks, or article length which is important to editors, in real time. I think Atex did provide J&H in real time. It might still have been typewriter font, so it wouldn't be a display showing the actual text with the letter shapes as printed, but for a newspaper editor that's not particularly important. > > TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display (4015? A BIG tube). And there was some experimental work to extend that to news page layout though there wasn't much interest in that apparently. And it could drive Harris 2200 terminals which were display ad creation devices (full graphics WYSIWIG displays) using the ugliest network protocol I've ever encountered. But the way the system was usually used (1978-1980 when I worked on it) was that output was generated in single column wide strips of film, which would then be pasted to page layout boards to produce the finished page layouts. > > paul > From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 14:05:56 2019 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 19:05:56 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> , <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: I echo the reliability requirement. Classified ad sales was the biggest revenue generator back then so Newpapers would throw a lot of development money at them to make them reliable. A classified sales rep would be on the phone to a customer, taking the text of the ad and typing it directly into the system so you couldn't afford the system to suddenly crash. This happened to us. when the CSE system was replaced with one from Ctext using pc's and OS/2 starting about 1097. After a while, the sales reps started jotting down of the text on notepads because they knew the system might fail at any time. Anyway you did have a very fun and cool job. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:49, Paul Koning wrote: > > Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as "firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I was sent there to learn on the spot. :-) > > Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+ pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom. TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing. > > There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big. Chicago Tribune, I think? > > It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college. > > paul > > >> On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S wrote: >> >> Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys? >> >> I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big enough. >> It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed IBM 3032 mainframe. >> >> I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time. >> >> Sent from my iPhone > From Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com Wed Mar 13 14:10:12 2019 From: Wayne.Sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 19:10:12 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> , <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: Btw... The inhouse system wasn't WYSIWYG, it used a standard font with markup to specify attributes. The back end system translated that to the proper fonts. The fonts were custom designed. Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2019, at 11:49, Paul Koning wrote: > > Early 1979. I worked on TMS-11 from summer 1978 to summer 1980, as "firefighter" -- traveling on-site support and software repair. I was scheduled for CMS-11 training early 1979, but instead the Valley News developed a serious bug so I was sent there to learn on the spot. :-) > > Supposedly the Valley News was one of the biggest classified systems in the country, 50+ pages of ads on the peak day. DEC also had a system in Melbourne, Australia (I think) at News Corp, which was somewhat bigger still. Or perhaps that was a bid that didn't turn into a sale? Not sure. Still, those systems didn't have 300 terminals, the likely limit was 100 or so I think. So if you had 330 I can see why that would be custom. TMS-11 used 11/70 systems running IAS (trimmed down to look like RSX-11/D, the timesharing part yanked out), with either VT61/t and/or VT71 terminals. The latter have an LSI-11 inside to do full file local editing. > > There was Typeset-10, I'm not sure how many customers that had but they were big. Chicago Tribune, I think? > > It was interesting to do field work for customers who need their system to be very reliable because they have to produce "product" every single day. Pretty amazing to get a job like that fresh out of college. > > paul > > >> On Mar 13, 2019, at 2:37 PM, Wayne S wrote: >> >> Paul, what was the timeframe when you worked on the system in Van Nuys? >> >> I worked for a large newspaper starting in 1978 and they made their own 330 seat Classified Sales Entry system because there wasn't anything out there that was big enough. >> It used Zentec ZMS-90 programmable terminals feeding Series /1 mini's that then fed IBM 3032 mainframe. >> >> I was wondering if DEC had that system available during that time. >> >> Sent from my iPhone > From g-wright at att.net Wed Mar 13 15:57:10 2019 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2019 20:57:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: PDP 11/60 Print Sets References: <1587069230.5075851.1552510630770.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1587069230.5075851.1552510630770@mail.yahoo.com> Message: 10 Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2019 15:56:51 -0500 From: David Williams To: CCTech Subject: PDP 11/60 Print Sets Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed Many years ago I gave away some PDP 11/60 hardware to someone on this list but don't recall who it was (Ethan maybe?). Anyway, I have recently discovered a stack of various print sets that I believe went with that system and would like to send them along. If you recall that long past transaction (10 years ago maybe? More? Less? Don't recall exactly, old age is killing my memory) please contact me so I can make arrangements for these. And if you aren't interested please let me know so I can see if anyone else is interested in them. Thanks. David Williams www.trailingedge.com David, If you need a home for these,? I have 2 complete 11/60's and would dearly like to have them. Thanks, Jerry From mcquiggi at sfu.ca Thu Mar 14 07:28:25 2019 From: mcquiggi at sfu.ca (Kevin McQuiggin (SFU)) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 05:28:25 -0700 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: > This happened to us. when the CSE system was replaced with one from Ctext using pc's and OS/2 starting about 1097. Just after the Norman Conquest: now THAT is a historic system! Kevin From rickb at bensene.com Thu Mar 14 12:51:03 2019 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 10:51:03 -0700 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> In an earlier posting, I stated that the 4014 (with its 19" DVST tube) was the largest DVST display that Tektronix made, to which Paul K. responded: > An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube -- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it > was. I stand corrected. I never saw one of these during the 13 years (1977-1990) that I worked at Tektronix. But, after looking around online, indeed, they exist, and there are a number of them still around, including a beautiful, working example at the local Tektronix museum, VintageTek.org. This is probably the article that Paul referred to: https://vintagetek.org/dvst-graphic-terminals/ Funny, last time I was at the museum (which was probably two+ years ago), I didn't see it...perhaps it's a newer acquisition. Had I seen it, I would have been surprised, since it was always my impression that the 19" tube was the largest. The 25" tube had to have some pretty crazy geometry correction circuitry in the deflection system to correct for the curvature of the tube face in X and Y dimensions, as well as probably some beam power correction to account for the curvature. A pretty amazing accomplishment, for sure. Tektronix had some really amazing CRT engineering folks, as well as fabulous CRT fab facilities back in the day. Thank you, Paul, for pointing out my error. Definitely an example of learning something new every day :-) -Rick From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 13:02:17 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 18:02:17 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On 3/14/19 1:51 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > In an earlier posting, I stated that the 4014 (with its 19" DVST tube) > was the largest DVST display that Tektronix made, to which > Paul K. responded: > >> An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube > -- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it >> was. > > I stand corrected. > > I never saw one of these during the 13 years (1977-1990) that I worked > at Tektronix. But, after looking around online, indeed, they exist, > and there are a number of them still around, including a beautiful, > working example at the local Tektronix museum, VintageTek.org. This is > probably the article that Paul referred to: > > https://vintagetek.org/dvst-graphic-terminals/ > > Funny, last time I was at the museum (which was probably two+ years > ago), I didn't see it...perhaps it's a newer acquisition. Had I seen > it, I would have been surprised, since it was always my impression that > the 19" tube was the largest. > > The 25" tube had to have some pretty crazy geometry correction circuitry > in the deflection system to correct for the curvature of the tube face > in X and Y dimensions, as well as probably some beam power correction to > account for the curvature. A pretty amazing accomplishment, for sure. > Tektronix had some really amazing CRT engineering folks, as well as > fabulous CRT fab facilities back in the day. > > Thank you, Paul, for pointing out my error. Definitely an example of > learning something new every day :-) > Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these computer museums could collect complete end-product systems and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these Tek terminals feeding a real printing press. bill From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 14 13:21:23 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:21:23 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these > computer museums could collect complete end-product systems > and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students > how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these > Tek terminals feeding a real printing press. > > bill I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately. Consider the Typeset-11 system. There were under 100 sold world-wide, I think. Each was a custom turnkey system, set up to talk to a particular model phototypesetter with the specific fonts that the customer ordered. The terminals are application-specific too. I'm not sure if a VT-61/t can be used as a VT52, it wouldn't surprise me if the answer were "no". And a VT-71 won't do anything unless it's first loaded with operating firmware from the host, which came packaged with Typeset-11 (or a later VMS typesetting product whose name escapes me). That said, if anyone were to come across bits & pieces of Typeset-11 (TMS-11) I'd be quite interested in dusting off old brain cells to help bring it back to life. Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, but the Typeset-11 I worked on predates all that. Half a generation earlier and also fairly small would be optical disk based machines, where the letter shapes are kept as shapes on a spinning glass disks, with a flash bulb to expose the chosen letter onto the film via a set of lenses that produces one of a number of font sizes. And I still remember the very early model CRT based phototypesetter at the San Diego Tribune, from III if memory serves -- it was basically a small room that you'd walk into in order to unload the film. And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls, actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky wax, and pasted onto layout boards. The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history. And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around, and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't it's rather a mess. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 14 13:52:24 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 14:52:24 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <6B506FF1-226F-41D7-9154-BB97D6486430@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On Mar 13, 2019, at 8:07 PM, Rick Bensene wrote: >> >> Paul K. wrote: >>> TMS-11 did support some specialized devices that could do more. There >> was the classified page layout system using a Tek 4010 style display >> (4015? A BIG tube). >> >> The big-tube Tektronix DVST (Direct View Storage Terminal) terminal was >> the 4014. The tube used in that terminal was the largest production >> DVST tube that Tektronix made. >> It was also used in the 4054 computer. > > An article about those terminals also turns up the 4016 (25 inch tube -- 4014 is 19 inches). I'm not sure any more which of the two it was. > > paul I found the answer. My Spanish is nearly non-existent, but I can puzzle out just enough of this https://ddd.uab.cat/pub/tesis/2002/tdx-0218103-190320/ccs12de16.pdf . On page 17-18 it describes the system used at the Eugene Register-Guard". It's a three-node 11/70 system, running TMS-11, EMS-11, CMS-11, with 120 VT-72 terminals and an unstated number of VT61 terminals. EMS-11 is a refinement of TMS-11 that came out around 1979 or 1980 (also known as TMS-11 V5, I think). It put a thin database on top of the file based document handling that was there before, so instead of seeing 9.3 RSX-style file names the customer would see articles named by freeform text phrases. The Denver Post was the beta site for that product; I got to babysit the initial deployment which was fun because it didn't involve real work (nothing went wrong). The document also mentions CPMS-11, which is "Classified page makeup system" (i.e., page layout) and refers to the Tektronix 4016 it used. I also see the CHM has a few TMS-11 documents, presumably not yet scanned. paul From toby at telegraphics.com.au Thu Mar 14 14:00:40 2019 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 15:00:40 -0400 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On 2019-03-14 2:21 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> >> Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these >> computer museums could collect complete end-product systems >> and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students >> how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these >> Tek terminals feeding a real printing press. >> >> bill > > I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately. ... > > Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, ...snip... > > And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls, actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky wax, and pasted onto layout boards. Out of high school I worked on a (tiny) family newspaper where we did that using LaserWriter printouts. Later we bought a Linotronic 100 which fits your description above: A capstan based laser imagesetter up to 1270dpi which was the first such device to run PostScript, and could be run over AppleTalk by the Macintosh applications and print manager. I typeset galleys with it (as it happens, with TeX, using all Adobe fonts), which were then pasted up into full pages. The L100 machine itself now needs a forever home. It is stored in Sydney NSW, Australia, so if anyone _does_ want to preserve some digital typesetting history, please get in touch. > > The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history. Yes; my 2nd job was at one of the last old-school graphic repro houses: Process cameras, manual colour separation and "combining" by the last generation trained in it. They had a very expensive (pre-PostScript) Crosfield digital workflow involving drum scanners and high resolution film recorders which was already obsolete when I started (1992). They had installed the first PostScript drum imagesetter in Australia (I'm told) -- a beautifully engineered Scangraphic -- that was my job to run. --Toby > > And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around, and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't it's rather a mess. > > paul > > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Thu Mar 14 13:43:48 2019 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 18:43:48 +0000 Subject: atex system in Houston In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B728@mail.bensene.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B72E@mail.bensene.com> , Message-ID: As an fyi to collecting, many old newspapers might be a source for old iron. They invested in computer Technology and when that technology was replaced/upgraded, they usually just moved the systems into the basement and they sit there collecting dust. Many systems were still on the books when they were being replaced so they couldn't get rid of them so they were forgotten about. At my old place of work I scrounged around in the basement a few years ago and found some brand new rl02 packs and a new side cover for a PDP 11/34. Still in the original shipping boxes. The building was sold so they had to clean it out before the new owners took over so everything was getting cleared out. There were 8 Alpha "Sable" systems that were used as post script Rips that i could have had too, but didn't have space for them. A never installed Auspex was there too as well as IBM POWER systems and lots of other goodies, newspaper page size scanners, Sun E10k, IBM SNA stuff. Oh well... Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 14, 2019, at 11:21, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> On Mar 14, 2019, at 2:02 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... >> >> Personally, I think it would be really neat if some of these >> computer museums could collect complete end-product systems >> and make them run. Can you imagine showing a bunch of students >> how a newspaper was produced using a PDP-11 and one of these >> Tek terminals feeding a real printing press. >> >> bill > > I agree it would be really neat. The odds of pulling it off are slim, unfortunately. Consider the Typeset-11 system. There were under 100 sold world-wide, I think. Each was a custom turnkey system, set up to talk to a particular model phototypesetter with the specific fonts that the customer ordered. The terminals are application-specific too. I'm not sure if a VT-61/t can be used as a VT52, it wouldn't surprise me if the answer were "no". And a VT-71 won't do anything unless it's first loaded with operating firmware from the host, which came packaged with Typeset-11 (or a later VMS typesetting product whose name escapes me). > > That said, if anyone were to come across bits & pieces of Typeset-11 (TMS-11) I'd be quite interested in dusting off old brain cells to help bring it back to life. > > Phototypesetters of that era were often quite big machines. At DEC we had an Autologic APS-4, which is a gray box about 6 feet on the sides. A fair number of customers had its successor the APS-5, which is somewhat smaller but not a whole lot. The smallest machines I remember were the Mergenthaler Linotron 202, about the size of a large high speed copier. Later models of that one supported PostScript, I think, but the Typeset-11 I worked on predates all that. Half a generation earlier and also fairly small would be optical disk based machines, where the letter shapes are kept as shapes on a spinning glass disks, with a flash bulb to expose the chosen letter onto the film via a set of lenses that produces one of a number of font sizes. And I still remember the very early model CRT based phototypesetter at the San Diego Tribune, from III if memory serves -- it was basically a small room that you'd walk into in order to unload the film. > > And yes, those machines produce output on photographic "film" (paper rolls, actually) which has to be developed and fixed, then cut, coated on the back with sticky wax, and pasted onto layout boards. > > The whole production process, from film to layout to press, is quite complex and comes in a bunch of variations. I understand it slightly, but all that was the province of skilled union tradesmen whose trade has long ago vanished into history. > > And never mind an actual printing press. Newspaper presses of course are still around, and probably not changed a whole lot. They are big, loud, and scary. Watching them switch from a used-up roll of paper to a new full roll, on the fly without stopping, is quite a spectacle. Especially because it *usually* works -- but if it doesn't it's rather a mess. > > paul > From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 15 01:41:56 2019 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 23:41:56 -0700 Subject: Old terminal photos with Frotz running Message-ID: I was wondering if I could get some photos of assorted old terminals displaying Frotz running Infocom games. I'm particularly interested in seeing the VT52, VT100, LA36 / LA120, ASR33, and TVI-910 like this. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 01:43:03 2019 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 14 Mar 2019 23:43:03 -0700 Subject: Latest batch of items from Sellam's Collection Message-ID: Greetings! The Ides of March brings another list of stuff from Sellam's warehouse: Toshiba T3200SX documentation and software Microsoft Serial - PS/2 Compatible Mouse ADDS ViewPoint dumb terminal SGI CD-ROM Library Oki Data Microline 184 Turbo Dot Matrix Printer Xerox WP7700 Word Processor Reference Manual TRS-80 Disk & Other Mysteries PMMI Communications MM-103-9 Communications Adaptor General DataComm Industries GDC 1001A Data Coupler (RBS-3) Commodore Model 6400 Word Processor Printer User's Manual MITS DV1600 Digital Volt Meter Assembly Manual MicroMint SB-180 Rev 2.0 Monitor ROM Coactive Connector for DOS/Windows Macintosh SE/30 system MacTerminal MacDraw Teletype Corporation Model 33 Teletypewriter documentation set AMPRO Little Board/PC Technical Manual AMPRO Little Board/PC Model 4B documentation AMPRO Little Board/PLUS documentation Radio Shack TRS-80 8" Single/Double-Sided Diskettes (Box of 10) Citizen iDP-560-RSL Dot Matrix Printer VAX DEC/Test Manager DEC LA324 Multiprinter Installation and Operator's Guide VMS DECwindows Desktop Applications Guide VMS User's Manual HP Infiniium Oscilloscope Model HP 54835A/45A Service Guide IBM PC Network documentation Utilities Unlimited, Inc. EMPLANT Emulator Board North Star Computers external 5.25" floppy drive enclosure kit Opus SS/SD 5.25" floppy diskette 10-pack GoldStar GS520 Laptop Xerox 2-button Mouse Find the links to these and other fine vintage computing items here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit?pli=1#gid=949372371&range=A1 Please do contact me directly by e-mail via to make an order or an offer. Thanks! Sellam From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 15 15:55:05 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 20:55:05 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Can I assume that all the patches have been applied and tested and none of them have been rescinded? Next, can I assume one need only apply them all in order to bring a system up to current level? And then the logical direction this is going. Is there any where I can find a file containing all of the patches already unpacked so I can feed them all into a system just installed? Dealing with them in the only format I have found so far could take weeks to actually run them. :-) bill From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 17:55:48 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 15:55:48 -0700 Subject: ISO: Docs for Andromeda VDC-11 Message-ID: Hi all -- Anyone happen to have any documentation for the Andromeda VDC-11? This is a dual-height qbus board that provides 512x256 graphics and can act as the PDP-11's console device (it emulates various different terminals, depending on the model of the VDC-11). I'm interested in programming information as well as jumpers and connector pinouts. Thanks! Josh From Mark at Misty.com Fri Mar 15 19:58:09 2019 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 20:58:09 -0400 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20190316005809.GA21012@allie.home.misty.com> Hi Bill, On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 08:55:05PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Can I assume that all the patches have been applied and tested and > none of them have been rescinded? > > Next, can I assume one need only apply them all in order to bring a > system up to current level? > > And then the logical direction this is going. Is there any where I > can find a file containing all of the patches already unpacked so I > can feed them all into a system just installed? Dealing with them > in the only format I have found so far could take weeks to actually > run them. :-) I've been using Compact Flash cards in CF-SCSI adapters with my 11/83s, with CMD SCSI controllers like yours. The beauty of these CF cards is I can back them up and copy them via my Mac and Linux systems so easily. If you get one of these Aztec Monster CF-SCSI adapters, I could send you an installed, bootable, patched BSD2.11 Complact FLash card, or image file you could put on a CF or disk. I'll follow up with you off list. Or, maybe there is some way you could write one of these images out to a SCSI disk via another system. I'll follow up with you off-list. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 15 21:28:10 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Mar 2019 19:28:10 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 15, 2019 at 1:55 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Can I assume that all the patches have been applied and tested and > none of them have been rescinded? > > Next, can I assume one need only apply them all in order to bring a > system up to current level? > > And then the logical direction this is going. Is there any where I > can find a file containing all of the patches already unpacked so I > can feed them all into a system just installed? Dealing with them > in the only format I have found so far could take weeks to actually > run them. :-) I already replied to Bill off list with some additional information. I'll reply to the list in case anyone else runs into this for the first time. You don't need to apply *all* of the patches starting from the very beginning. If you started with the distribution here (or some mirror of it) it is already at patch level 431: https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/ https://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/UCB/2.11BSD/VERSION Current Patch Level: 431 Date: April 21, 2000 So patches only need to be applied starting with 432. The time frame of patches 432 through 444 is 2000 through 2003, so somewhat close to the 2.11BSD distribution release referenced above. Then patches 445 through 447 are 2006 through 2008. Then patches 448 through 450 are somewhat recent, 2015 through 2016. I haven't bothered installing anything beyond patch 444 when I set up some 2.11BSD systems in the past. I did try patch 445, which is supposed to fix issues running on a system with no FP unit, but that didn't seem to help when I was trying to get 2.11BSD to run on a QED-993 CPU, which lacks FP support. Never did get 2.11BSD (or RSTS/E) to run on the QED-993 CPU. The individual patch files can currently be found here: https://www.retro11.de/data/211bsd/patches/ These mirrors seem to come and go over time so you might want to grab a copy of the patch files while you can so you don't have to go looking for them somewhere else in the future. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 16 05:29:01 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:29:01 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 Message-ID: <005701d4dbe3$12b52eb0$381f8c10$@ntlworld.com> I have been experimenting with a SCSI21SD V6 card trying to get it to work on a VAX 4000-200 running VMS 5.4 using a KZQSA. It seems to recognise that there is a SCSI device there, but any attempt to access the device from VMS 5.4 results in a Fatal Drive Error. I tried booting a VMS 7.3 image from the SCSI2SD card and that worked. Obviously I have played with some of the settings, like SCSI2 mode etc, but I have not found anything that works. Has anyone succeeded in getting this board to work on VMS 5.4? Thanks Rob From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 05:41:01 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:41:01 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <005701d4dbe3$12b52eb0$381f8c10$@ntlworld.com> References: <005701d4dbe3$12b52eb0$381f8c10$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <3ccf01d4dbe4$c0122cb0$40368610$@gmail.com> Rob, Might be an issue with the card. The KZQSA was officially only supported for CD-ROM and Tape. http://www.microvax2.org/files/KZQSA%20Jumper%20Settings.htm (towards the bottom)... ... have you tried with a real SCSI drive? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 16 March 2019 10:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 > > I have been experimenting with a SCSI21SD V6 card trying to get it to work on > a VAX 4000-200 running VMS 5.4 using a KZQSA. It seems to recognise that > there is a SCSI device there, but any attempt to access the device from VMS > 5.4 results in a Fatal Drive Error. I tried booting a VMS 7.3 image from the > SCSI2SD card and that worked. > > > > Obviously I have played with some of the settings, like SCSI2 mode etc, but I > have not found anything that works. Has anyone succeeded in getting this > board to work on VMS 5.4? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 16 06:21:19 2019 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 11:21:19 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <3ccf01d4dbe4$c0122cb0$40368610$@gmail.com> References: <005701d4dbe3$12b52eb0$381f8c10$@ntlworld.com> <3ccf01d4dbe4$c0122cb0$40368610$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <007f01d4dbea$6101b8c0$23052a40$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Dave Wade > Sent: 16 March 2019 10:41 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; 'Rob Jarratt' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 > > Rob, > > Might be an issue with the card. The KZQSA was officially only supported for > CD-ROM and Tape. > > http://www.microvax2.org/files/KZQSA%20Jumper%20Settings.htm > > (towards the bottom)... > ... have you tried with a real SCSI drive? > I thought I remembered something like that but I couldn't find the info. Thanks for the reminder. I suspect VMS 7.3 maybe works with hard disks on KZQSA whereas 5.4 perhaps does not. I may try to emulate a CD-ROM to see if that at least works. Thanks Rob From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 16 08:19:42 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 13:19:42 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: ------------ Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. ----------- Has no one else noticed that a number of these patches fail? I am continuing to apply them and just hoping that I don't run into a point where one of the failures brings them all to a screeching halt. bill From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 16 08:48:31 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 07:48:31 -0600 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:19 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > ------------ > Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. > Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. > Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. > ----------- > > > Has no one else noticed that a number of these patches fail? I am > continuing to apply them and just hoping that I don't run into a > point where one of the failures brings them all to a screeching > halt. > A number of them require manual shell commands before applying, which makes the process harder than you'd expect. Warner > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 16 09:09:33 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 14:09:33 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 3/16/19 9:48 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:19 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: > > > ------------ > Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. > Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. > Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. > ----------- > > > Has no one else noticed that a number of these patches fail?? I am > continuing to apply them and just hoping that I don't run into a > point where one of the failures brings them all to a screeching > halt. > > > A number of them require manual shell commands before applying, which > makes the process harder than you'd expect. > Doesn't say anything about that in the accompanying text, either. bill From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Mar 16 10:16:10 2019 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 09:16:10 -0600 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 8:09 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/16/19 9:48 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:19 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > > wrote: > > > > > > ------------ > > Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. > > Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. > > Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. > > ----------- > > > > > > Has no one else noticed that a number of these patches fail? I am > > continuing to apply them and just hoping that I don't run into a > > point where one of the failures brings them all to a screeching > > halt. > > > > > > A number of them require manual shell commands before applying, which > > makes the process harder than you'd expect. > > > > Doesn't say anything about that in the accompanying text, either. > The patches were sent out by email with instructions on how to apply them. This went on for years by different people so that process wasn't uniform. I ran into this when I wanted to quickly create a bad 2.11github repo... I thought it would be quick, but quickly turned into a pita. Warner > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 16 10:42:19 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 15:42:19 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 3/16/19 11:16 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 8:09 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > wrote: > > On 3/16/19 9:48 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > > > > On Sat, Mar 16, 2019, 7:19 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > > > >> wrote: > > > > > >? ? ?------------ > >? ? ?Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. > >? ? ?Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. > >? ? ?Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. > >? ? ?----------- > > > > > >? ? ?Has no one else noticed that a number of these patches fail? > I am > >? ? ?continuing to apply them and just hoping that I don't run into a > >? ? ?point where one of the failures brings them all to a screeching > >? ? ?halt. > > > > > > A number of them require manual shell commands before applying, > which > > makes the process harder than you'd expect. > > > > Doesn't say anything about that in the accompanying text, either. > > > The patches were sent out by email with instructions on how to apply > them. This went on for years by different people so that process wasn't > uniform. I ran into this when I wanted to quickly create a bad > 2.11github repo... I thought it would be quick, but quickly turned into > a pita. Well, I made it thru. Haven't tried moving it to a real PDP-11 yet but will try this weekend. Not sure what the patches that didn't work actually do, so9 I hope it's nothing that will bite me later. Still need to config and build a real kernel as I am still using the GENERIC but I will likely let that wait until I have it on the real PDP-11 where it will be running so that I can match the kernel to the hardware. Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between real drives and tap/tpc images. Anybody got one? Also want to look at building the tools to do Ultrix-11 installs from VTServer as the number of real tape drives is rapidly decreasing. Hoping that 2.11 BSD will make a nice platform for doing a lot of this. bill ' From kevin at knlag.com Sat Mar 16 05:48:54 2019 From: kevin at knlag.com (Kevin Lee) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:48:54 +0000 Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 In-Reply-To: <3ccf01d4dbe4$c0122cb0$40368610$@gmail.com> References: <005701d4dbe3$12b52eb0$381f8c10$@ntlworld.com>, <3ccf01d4dbe4$c0122cb0$40368610$@gmail.com> Message-ID: [https://tr.cloudmagic.com/h/v6/emailtag/tag/2.0/1552733316/85fc1846b5a972615d38b2f05dda8e74/9/f2d01fea9c6166636e0551859eb61c40/1fa4b1eaccd350d763ee60af85a71370/9efab2399c7c560b34de477b9aa0a465/newton.gif] Why not try dd if working real disk of to SD card ? On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:41pm, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: Rob, Might be an issue with the card. The KZQSA was officially only supported for CD-ROM and Tape. http://www.microvax2.org/files/KZQSA%20Jumper%20Settings.htm (towards the bottom)... ... have you tried with a real SCSI drive? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt via > cctalk > Sent: 16 March 2019 10:29 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: SCSI2SD on VMS 5.4 > > I have been experimenting with a SCSI21SD V6 card trying to get it to work on > a VAX 4000-200 running VMS 5.4 using a KZQSA. It seems to recognise that > there is a SCSI device there, but any attempt to access the device from VMS > 5.4 results in a Fatal Drive Error. I tried booting a VMS 7.3 image from the > SCSI2SD card and that worked. > > > > Obviously I have played with some of the settings, like SCSI2 mode etc, but I > have not found anything that works. Has anyone succeeded in getting this > board to work on VMS 5.4? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 12:24:26 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:24:26 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:19 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > ------------ > Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. > Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. > Overdue "---" at line 782--check line numbers at line 773. > ----------- > That looks like a match for the patch 442 for file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/expr.c I'm not sure what the "Overdue" message means. I never got that while applying patches 432 through 444. Log below of applying patch 442 through the end of patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/expr.c # cd /usr/src/patches # sh 442 # sh 442.shar # patch -p0 < 442.patch Hmm... Looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/bin/od.c.old Sun Feb 8 14:24:54 1987 |--- /usr/src/bin/od.c Mon Nov 19 20:07:49 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/bin/od.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 1. Hunk #2 succeeded at 697. Hunk #3 succeeded at 720. Hunk #4 succeeded at 776. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/ucb/ex/ex_io.c.old Sun Sep 8 11:59:44 1991 |--- /usr/src/ucb/ex/ex_io.c Mon Nov 19 20:08:08 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/ucb/ex/ex_io.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 5. Hunk #2 succeeded at 856. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/pas.y.old Thu Mar 17 14:17:22 1983 |--- /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/pas.y Mon Nov 19 20:06:16 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/pas.y using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 210. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/const.c.old Fri Jul 10 13:58:28 1981 |--- /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/const.c Mon Nov 19 20:08:29 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pi/const.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 1. Hunk #2 succeeded at 29. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/const.c.old Sat May 31 03:50:44 1986 |--- /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/const.c Mon Nov 19 20:06:17 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/const.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 31. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/pas.y.old Fri Jul 10 13:59:37 1981 |--- /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/pas.y Mon Nov 19 20:06:20 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/ucb/pascal/pxp/pas.y using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 203. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/data.c.old Mon Feb 16 16:57:36 1987 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/data.c Mon Nov 19 20:06:22 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/data.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 16. Hunk #2 succeeded at 74. Hunk #3 succeeded at 87. Hunk #4 succeeded at 96. Hunk #5 succeeded at 108. Hunk #6 succeeded at 134. Hunk #7 succeeded at 153. Hunk #8 succeeded at 166. Hunk #9 succeeded at 214. Hunk #10 succeeded at 232. Hunk #11 succeeded at 267. Hunk #12 succeeded at 274. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defines.old Mon Feb 16 16:57:36 1987 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defines Mon Nov 19 20:06:23 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defines using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 233. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defs.old Mon Feb 16 16:57:41 1987 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defs Mon Nov 19 20:06:24 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/defs using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 268. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/equiv.c.old Tue Jun 27 19:54:24 1989 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/equiv.c Mon Nov 19 20:06:25 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/equiv.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 47. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/exec.c.old Mon Feb 16 16:57:37 1987 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/exec.c Mon Nov 19 20:06:27 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/exec.c using Plan A... Hunk #1 succeeded at 227. Hmm... The next patch looks like a new-style context diff to me... The text leading up to this was: -------------------------- |*** /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/expr.c.old Mon Feb 16 16:57:37 1987 |--- /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/expr.c Mon Nov 19 20:06:43 2001 -------------------------- Patching file /usr/src/usr.bin/f77/expr.c using Plan B... Hunk #1 succeeded at 21. Hunk #2 succeeded at 33. Hunk #3 succeeded at 49. Hunk #4 succeeded at 62. Hunk #5 succeeded at 75. Hunk #6 succeeded at 95. Hunk #7 succeeded at 115. Hunk #8 succeeded at 163. Hunk #9 succeeded at 237. Hunk #10 succeeded at 289. Hunk #11 succeeded at 1075. Hunk #12 succeeded at 1250. Hunk #13 succeeded at 1303. Hunk #14 succeeded at 1340. Hunk #15 succeeded at 1361. Hunk #16 succeeded at 1375. Hunk #17 succeeded at 1407. Hunk #18 succeeded at 1458. Hunk #19 succeeded at 1675. Hunk #20 succeeded at 1709. Hunk #21 succeeded at 1761. Hunk #22 succeeded at 1768. Hunk #23 succeeded at 1848. Hunk #24 succeeded at 1901. Hunk #25 succeeded at 2079. Hunk #26 succeeded at 2115. Hunk #27 succeeded at 2123. Hunk #28 succeeded at 2131. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Mar 16 12:50:15 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 10:50:15 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 8:42 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between > real drives and tap/tpc images. Anybody got one? > I do that on a DOS PC with a Fujitsu M2444AC 1/2-inch tape drive attached to an Computer Logics PCTD16 ISA bus Pertec interface card using a program I hacked up to do that. Works great if you happen to have a Pertec interface tape drive and a PCTD16 card. But that's no help for you. Sticking with a DOS PC there is ST.EXE by John Wilson. I have used that once or twice long ago and don't remember anything about using it now. http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/ http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/README http://www.dbit.com/pub/ibmpc/util/st.txt st SCSI tape utility. Can be used to capture tape images for Ersatz-11, among other things. Use "st -f scsi6: iget foo.tap" to read the entire tape at SCSI ID 6 into the file "foo.tap", suitable for use with E11's MOUNT command. It can also go the other way, use "iput" instead of "iget" to write foo.tap onto the tape. Fixed block sizes with recordless files are also supported, like what you get with the UNIX "dd" program. More often I used an Exabyte EXB-8200 8mm SCSI tape drive attached to CMD CQD SCSI controllers on Q-Bus systems. To write TAP / TPC tape images to the EXB-8200 I used a Linux system with some code that I hacked up to do that. Much easier than trying to figure out how to do that on a Windows system. It's been a while since I last used that, might take a while to find that code. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 16 14:12:18 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 12:12:18 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> >> Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between >> real drives and tap/tpc images. Anybody got one? https://github.com/brouhaha/tapeutils From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 16 17:42:34 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 22:42:34 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/16/19 3:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >>> Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between >>> real drives and tap/tpc images. Anybody got one? > > https://github.com/brouhaha/tapeutils > I just took a quick glance but somehow I doubt that's going to compile or run on a PDP-11. :-) u32? I grabbed a copy. I am willing to try almost anything. :-) bill From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 16 14:17:47 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 16 Mar 2019 19:17:47 +0000 Subject: searching for TEAC MT-2R tape deck documentation Message-ID: Hi guys, Today I found a TEAC MT-2R cassette tape drive on a radio amateur flee market. These tape drives use a tape cassette similar to the audio tape cassette. The MT-2R tape deck has servo control logic for tape motion and a CPU with firmware taat makes the tape unit a block-addressable device (AFAIK). However, I can only find doc of the MT-2ST, but that is another MTU. Does anybody have doc of the TEAC MT-2R ? Thanks, Henk, PA8PDP From fedorkow at mit.edu Sun Mar 17 13:21:18 2019 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 14:21:18 -0400 Subject: Sun 3/50 Message-ID: <6ad1a37c-5f88-f934-8eb2-ed83dd9fe8f9@mit.edu> I have a Sun 3/50 diskless workstation in the Boston area, which I'd like to see go to a good home.? I no longer have the monochrome monitor that went with it, but I do have the original keyboard and mouse.? It hasn't been powered up in some time, but worked without problems until I took it out of service. ? Contact me at guy.fedorkow at gmail.com if you're interested? Thanks /guy From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sun Mar 17 14:36:14 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 12:36:14 -0700 Subject: DECimage questions Message-ID: <712F24D7-AB8B-492E-93F4-55CA5343D8D1@eschatologist.net> I recently acquired a DECimage X terminal, which is theoretically a VXT-2000 with an add-on 2D accelerator. Unfortunately while the terminal is badges as a DECimage it didn?t include the board, just a frame buffer. Does anyone have a spare DECimage board they?d be interested in parting with, or know a reasonable place to obtain one? How about other components for this machine? I have the AUI/thin Ethernet card and wouldn?t mind replacing it with the AUI/twisted-pair card, and I?d also like to max out the RAM: It has 2MB onboard and I have the riser card with SIMM slots and one SIMM for an additional 4MB. It uses what I?m told are DEC MS200-AA (2MB) and DEC MS200-BA (4MB) modules, which look like regular 72pin SIMMs. Are they special or are they compatible with anything common? ? Chris Sent from my iPad From fedorkow at mit.edu Sun Mar 17 18:34:37 2019 From: fedorkow at mit.edu (Guy Fedorkow) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 19:34:37 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Sun 3/50 In-Reply-To: <6ad1a37c-5f88-f934-8eb2-ed83dd9fe8f9@mit.edu> References: <6ad1a37c-5f88-f934-8eb2-ed83dd9fe8f9@mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks for the interest!? A number of folks responded, I've replied to the first responder, but of course I'll keep the next couple in line handy in case something happens. ? /guy -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: Sun 3/50 Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 14:21:18 -0400 From: Guy Fedorkow To: cctalk at classiccmp.org I have a Sun 3/50 diskless workstation in the Boston area, which I'd like to see go to a good home.? I no longer have the monochrome monitor that went with it, but I do have the original keyboard and mouse.? It hasn't been powered up in some time, but worked without problems until I took it out of service. ? Contact me at guy.fedorkow at gmail.com if you're interested? Thanks /guy From earl at baugh.org Sun Mar 17 21:58:29 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 22:58:29 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Fwd=3A_Sun_3=2FXXX_240v_power_supply_=E2=80=94_switch_to_115v_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=94_is_it_possible=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Howdy, I?ve recently gotten a second Sun 3/Xxx 3 slot VME chassis, however the power supply is a EU version, 240v. I know on a number of ?newer? power supplies there is a switch to go from 240 to 115. I?ve taken this one apart ( at least to the point where it comes off the bottom of the VME chassis ? but left the thick cables still connected. ) I haven?t found any switch or any indication that it can switch. Googling and looking at the FEH hasn?t yielded any info either. Anybody know if it?s possible to switch this type of PS? Thanks Earl Sent from my iPhone From earl at baugh.org Sun Mar 17 22:00:07 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 23:00:07 -0400 Subject: Fwd: Sun 3 with SCSI2SD In-Reply-To: <58B5F6CF-A5AE-4D93-8522-EA2CCC3CD144@baugh.org> References: <58B5F6CF-A5AE-4D93-8522-EA2CCC3CD144@baugh.org> Message-ID: Howdy, Wondering if anyone has used a SCSI2SD card with a Sun 3 class machine. I know Walter B has had success with the Sun 2( that?s next on my list after I get the Sun 3/110 working with one. ) I have some Version 5 of the card. (I also have a version 3 card that I tried long ago, with little success). The new current firmware is much more understandable in terms of setting it up. However with a known good image ( obtained from Walter B) I can?t get it to go past the message ?Waiting for disk to spin up...? followed by ?Please start it, if necessary , ? OR ? press a key to quit.? I know the card doesn?t need to spin up ? so question is, what is the boot prom waiting for? I expect it?s just something off in my config but so far everything I?ve tried yields the same result. Anybody have a config.xml that works that they could share? ( and which firmware version it works with? ) Thanks Earl Sent from my iPhone From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 17 23:55:16 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 04:55:16 +0000 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_Sun_3=2FXXX_240v_power_supply_=E2=80=94_switch_to_115v_?= =?UTF-8?Q?=E2=80=94_is_it_possible=3F?= In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 2:59 AM Earl Baugh via cctalk wrote: > > Howdy, > > I?ve recently gotten a second Sun 3/Xxx 3 slot VME chassis, however the > power supply is a EU version, 240v. I know on a number of ?newer? power > supplies there is a switch to go from 240 to 115. I?ve taken this one > apart ( at least to the point where it comes off the bottom of the VME > chassis ? but left the thick cables still connected. ) I haven?t found any > switch or any indication that it can switch. Googling and looking at the > FEH hasn?t yielded any info either. > > Anybody know if it?s possible to switch this type of PS? The power supply was almost certainly not made by Sun. Are there any markings/makers name on it? Can you provide a picutre of the PSU board? Look for a jumper wire, soldered at one end and with a single socket on the other that can be fitted to one of 2 pins on the PCB. Pins labelled '115' and '230' for example. Or a pair of terminals on the connector where the mains cable comes in to the PCB marked 'link for 115V' But before you go too far, look at the mains smoothing capacitors. If there are pair, each rated at around 200V, then it is likely it can be converted. If there's just one rated at around 400V then it is likely it's 230V only. -tony From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sun Mar 17 19:34:52 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 17 Mar 2019 19:34:52 -0500 Subject: DECimage questions Message-ID: <2ab542b4-0847-737d-ca9c-e6e85a8d63f0@illinois.edu> >I recently acquired a DECimage X terminal, which is theoretically a VXT-2000 >with an add-on 2D accelerator. Unfortunately while the terminal is badges as a >DECimage it didn?t include the board, just a frame buffer. That's unfortunate. My VXT2000 doesn't have that board either, I've always wondered how much it helps. I'm not too sure if the bottleneck is usually the 10mbit networking or the graphics. Probably depends a bit on whether you're using modern X11 applications or not. Modern stuff all likes to assume true-color (24bit or thereabouts) and render stuff locally and send it again to redraw, rather than rendering on the (remote) xterm it seems... >Does anyone have a spare DECimage board they?d be interested in parting with, >or know a reasonable place to obtain one? Unfortunately, as I already stated I don't, and my only idea where to get one is ebay and similar sites, which I'm sure you already know. >How about other components for this machine? I have the AUI/thin Ethernet card >and wouldn?t mind replacing it with the AUI/twisted-pair card, and I?d also >like to max out the RAM: It has 2MB onboard and I have the riser card with >SIMM slots and one SIMM for an additional 4MB. No clue where to get a twisted pair module, but mine has one. I currently have it hooked up to our thinnet segment though, and I've had it on our thicknet segment previously (now we have a proper VAXen occupying that transceiver). >It uses what I?m told are DEC MS200-AA (2MB) and DEC MS200-BA (4MB) modules, >which look like regular 72pin SIMMs. Are they special or are they compatible >with anything common? > >? ? Chris > >Sent from my iPad Here's where I can help you. The SIMMs aren't really anything special, you can use 2MB and 4MB modules. The VAX SOC in the VXT is slow enough that you probably don't have to worry about access time, so 60 or 70ns modules are probably both fine. If you don't have a 4MB module laying around, you can use an 8MB or 16MB module, but you have to install a wire from a ground pin to A10 on the SIMM connector and fix the presence detect bits, IIRC. (A0-A9 gives 1024 rows and columns, 1M-word per bank, 4 bytes per word, so 4MB SIMM. DEC left the unused address lines floating, and that causes issues with bigger SIMMs). You can also install a single jumper IIRC to make 16MB SIMMs appear as 4MB, and 8MB SIMMs appear as 2MB (it's just grounding one of the PD lines, I don't remember which). The most you can fit into a VXT2000 is 18MB IIRC, that's 3 4MB SIMM, + 4MB on the riser itself + 2MB on the motherboard. Lastly, you'll need the VXT2000 SW, which I extracted from some VMS (infoserver?) CDs several years ago. Someone put them up on terminals-wiki.org, so you can grab them there: http://terminals-wiki.org/collections/DEC/vxt2000.zip VXT021KT10.SYS is the full blown VXT software including local side applications, like DECWindows etc. VXTLDR021.SYS is some intermediate loader you can use to get an NFS swap file or something like that if you have an infoserver or VMS running the infoserver software IIRC. VXTEX020A.SYS is *just* the X server IIRC, missing the local side applications but having a smaller memory footprint. This doesn't even have a window manager, so you'd have to use it with a remote one and set up XDMCP. The terminals boot from MOP or TFTP/BOOTP with late enough firmware. MOP has a daemon available for linux and BSDs, if you'd like to go that route, but otherwise TFTP/BOOTP is probably better supported by modern infrastructure Hopefully this was helpful. If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask. I'm probably one of a few people who bothers to keep a VXT around running, so I can probably answer most questions you might have about setup and operation. Best Regards, Joe Zatarski From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Mar 18 07:03:17 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:03:17 +0100 Subject: HELP needed on a vocabulary problem ;-) Message-ID: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> The TECHNICAL problem : I am repairing a not so old electric typewriter. I need to replace what I call : a flexible printed circuit ( strip / ribbon / what's the "correct" word ??? ) *** AND *** the associated connector I searched Mouse, Digikey, Arrow, etc ... catalogues and find absolutly nothing !! I think I DO NOT use the correct WORD(s) for my search. What are the "usual" words for the TWO items I describe ?? Many thanks for your help, Guys From gerardcjat at free.fr Mon Mar 18 07:03:17 2019 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:03:17 +0100 Subject: HELP needed on a vocabulary problem ;-) Message-ID: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> The TECHNICAL problem : I am repairing a not so old electric typewriter. I need to replace what I call : a flexible printed circuit ( strip / ribbon / what's the "correct" word ??? ) *** AND *** the associated connector I searched Mouse, Digikey, Arrow, etc ... catalogues and find absolutly nothing !! I think I DO NOT use the correct WORD(s) for my search. What are the "usual" words for the TWO items I describe ?? Many thanks for your help, Guys From rwiker at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 07:28:57 2019 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:28:57 +0100 Subject: HELP needed on a vocabulary problem ;-) In-Reply-To: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> References: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> Message-ID: "zebra connector", perhaps? On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 1:03 PM GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > The TECHNICAL problem : I am repairing a not so old electric typewriter. > I need to replace what I call : a flexible printed circuit ( strip / > ribbon / what's the "correct" word ??? ) *** AND *** the associated > connector > I searched Mouse, Digikey, Arrow, etc ... catalogues and find absolutly > nothing !! > > I think I DO NOT use the correct WORD(s) for my search. > > What are the "usual" words for the TWO items I describe ?? > Many thanks for your help, Guys > From pb at pbcl.net Mon Mar 18 07:34:41 2019 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 12:34:41 +0000 Subject: HELP needed on a vocabulary problem ;-) In-Reply-To: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> References: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> Message-ID: <3336ad48b8ef12617af70f4a3b2b88819103ac5c.camel@pbcl.net> On Mon, 2019-03-18 at 13:03 +0100, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: > The TECHNICAL problem : I am repairing a not so old electric typewriter. > I need to replace what I call : a flexible printed circuit ( strip / ribbon / what's the "correct" word ??? ) *** AND *** the associated connector > I searched Mouse, Digikey, Arrow, etc ... catalogues and find absolutly nothing !! > > I think I DO NOT use the correct WORD(s) for my search. > > What are the "usual" words for the TWO items I describe ?? "FFC"/"FPC" and "FFC/FPC connector" possibly. Are these the sort of things you mean? https://uk.farnell.com/molex/15015-0423/cable-assy-23core-101-6mm-brown/dp/2096098?st=fpc https://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/1-1734248-9/fpc-connector-receptacle-19-position/dp/1846686?st=fpc%20connector p. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Mar 18 09:51:59 2019 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 08:51:59 -0600 Subject: DECimage questions In-Reply-To: <2ab542b4-0847-737d-ca9c-e6e85a8d63f0@illinois.edu> References: <2ab542b4-0847-737d-ca9c-e6e85a8d63f0@illinois.edu> Message-ID: <6a144532-884f-a960-3ba2-1bfb34477f36@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 3/17/19 6:34 PM, Joseph Zatarski via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, as I already stated I don't, and my only idea where to > get one is ebay and similar sites, which I'm sure you already know. What "similar sites" are people haunting these days? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From earl at baugh.org Mon Mar 18 13:06:44 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 14:06:44 -0400 Subject: Clearpoint SNXRAM/12 VME In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey, Anybody happen to have any documentation for a Clearpoint SNXRAM card? I?ll take any version ( though I have the /12 card ). I?m trying to figure out the jumpers on this board. It generates a memory error in my Sun 3/110 but not sure if that?s because of overlapping addressing. I?ve tried searching for the doc for years ( this year I?m trying very hard to get my Sun 2/120 and Sun 3/110 running correctly. Got my Sun 1/100 and Sun 4/110 booting correctly, disk images are almost ready for them ) Earl Sent from my iPhone From chd at chdickman.com Mon Mar 18 20:23:50 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 21:23:50 -0400 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <1012F68F-A8AE-46D7-8E50-8520A4486A51@avanthar.com> <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Bill, Here's the patched boot loader that you need. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/rauboot.s The rest is an exercise for the student. :-) Its about the journey, not the destination, otherwise we would be somewhere else. I have to say that it took a lot of patience to get 2.11BSD running on my first PDP-11/73. I think it was about 3 years before I was able to get the parts together and figure out the method. SIMH didn't have MSCP support and there was a bug in ra boot loader that took a while to fix. Chuck On Sat, Mar 16, 2019 at 6:42 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 3/16/19 3:12 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >>> Now I need a program that can move Tape data back and forth between > >>> real drives and tap/tpc images. Anybody got one? > > > > https://github.com/brouhaha/tapeutils > > > > I just took a quick glance but somehow I doubt that's going > to compile or run on a PDP-11. :-) u32? > > I grabbed a copy. I am willing to try almost anything. :-) > > bill > > From chd at chdickman.com Mon Mar 18 21:15:48 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 22:15:48 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? Message-ID: What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 21:22:26 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:22:26 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 7:16 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck > I've been using the V5 boards in a variety of systems for a few years now -- VAX (micro-and-otherwise), PDP-11 (via the usual Emulex and CMD controllers), Sun-2 and Sun-3 workstations, HP/Apollo 400 systems, a Symbolics XL1200, various old Macintosh systems and probably some other things I've forgotten. At LCM+L we're using them in our VAX-11/785 and 730, and we're using a V6 in our 7000-640. I've had very few issues and the developer has been very responsive to bug reports (though I'll admit it's been a couple of years since I've had to report one). The V5 is plenty fast for most vintage gear, I don't think they come close to hitting the max throughput. That's what I'd recommend for the systems you're talking about. - Josh From aperry at snowmoose.com Mon Mar 18 21:32:56 2019 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:32:56 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9b7079b0-c741-09f2-67d9-7633a1bd0685@snowmoose.com> On 3/18/19 7:22 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 7:16 PM Charles Dickman via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be >> SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this >> list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. >> >> Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not >> seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a >> supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the >> V6 available. >> >> It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without >> following the GPL. >> >> V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware >> supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was >> after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be >> consistent with the era. >> >> Chuck >> > I've been using the V5 boards in a variety of systems for a few years now > -- VAX (micro-and-otherwise), PDP-11 (via the usual Emulex and CMD > controllers), Sun-2 and Sun-3 workstations, HP/Apollo 400 systems, a > Symbolics XL1200, various old Macintosh systems and probably some other > things I've forgotten. At LCM+L we're using them in our VAX-11/785 and > 730, and we're using a V6 in our 7000-640. I've had very few issues and > the developer has been very responsive to bug reports (though I'll admit > it's been a couple of years since I've had to report one). > > The V5 is plenty fast for most vintage gear, I don't think they come close > to hitting the max throughput. That's what I'd recommend for the systems > you're talking about. > > - Josh I have only used the V5 boards. I have not tried them on as many systems as Josh, but otherwise I have had similar position experiences using them. I have been using them on sun4c and sun4m systems. alan From spectre at floodgap.com Mon Mar 18 21:48:47 2019 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:48:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: from Charles Dickman via cctalk at "Mar 18, 19 10:15:48 pm" Message-ID: <201903190248.x2J2mlZN24379396@floodgap.com> > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Depends on the machine and the OS. Worked well in a PowerBook with MacOS, but NetBSD on my IIci threw all kinds of problems with it. Works great in my Solbourne S3000, but opened the SCSI fuse on my rare PowerBook "800." I don't know if v6 is appreciably better. Most of my experience is with v5. Odds are it will work but it's not a panacea, nor (in fairness) is it sold as one. Some observations in more detail: https://tenfourfox.blogspot.com/2018/11/and-now-for-something-completely.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Apathetic dyslexic agnostic: "I don't care if there's a dog" --------------- From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Mar 18 22:35:13 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 03:35:13 +0000 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 Message-ID: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Hello friends, I recently acquired a NIB 9-track for use in my (someday to be operational) PDP-11/23+ or PDP-11/73 (I've lost track of the details). I got it on ebay for $150 but the shipping from CA to NY was not insubstantial :). The ebay ad showed a well-used unit but when it arrived it was clearly new in box! Nice when that happens :) Some pix: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/ It is VERY heavy! Took me and my 17 year old (and a lot of sweat and swearing) to get it up to the attic where my burgeoning little vintage computing lab is shaping up. I should mention, I'd like this tape drive to be able to work in either the various DEC OS's available (RT-11/RSX/others?) and also Unix/BSD which I plan (hope) to get up and running. Now for some questions. 1. I've been told the QT13 is a very good card to interface here. I've been looking for a while on ebay without luck. I do see a QT14 on ebay right now at a good price, but I am not familiar with the "S" card business and what that means for use in a PDP-11 backplane. 2. Anyone have a QT13 for sale? Or based on my dec and unix interests, is there a better/recommended card? 3. Anyone have the 50 pin cables/connectors available? If not I feel confident I could make these up. But I thought I'd ask in case someone has a set getting in their way 4. Anyone ever make a pertec to USB project? Might be interesting to get access to old tapes on more modern computers? Thanks all! 73 Eugene W2HX From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Mon Mar 18 22:51:15 2019 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 22:51:15 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/18/2019 9:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck > I've had mixed success.? Neither a V5.1 nor a V6.03 worked with my MicroVAX 3100 M95, it's built in SCSI interface and OpenVMS V7.3.? Light access worked but as soon as you tried any kind of actual work it threw hoards of mount verification messages and errors piled up and became unusuable. On the other hand, the V5.1 worked terrific on my Compaq AlphaServer DS10 with a Qlogic ISP1020 SCSI card and OpenVMS V8.4 Others have had success with MicroVAXen and V7.3 and earlier so I think it's my system, but I haven't had time to work it out yet. -- John H. Reinhardt PRRT&HS #8909 C&O HS #11530 N-Trak #7566 From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 18 23:40:51 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 21:40:51 -0700 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 8:35 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Now for some questions. > > 1. I've been told the QT13 is a very good card to interface here. I've been looking for a while on ebay without luck. I do see a QT14 on ebay right now at a good price, but I am not familiar with the "S" card business and what that means for use in a PDP-11 backplane. > > 2. Anyone have a QT13 for sale? Or based on my dec and unix interests, is there a better/recommended card? > > 3. Anyone have the 50 pin cables/connectors available? If not I feel confident I could make these up. But I thought I'd ask in case someone has a set getting in their way > A Fujitsu M2444AC in new condition is a great tape drive if you want to work with 9-track 1/2-inch tapes, and don't need 800BPI, and plan to use it with a host with a Pertec interface, and have the space to set it up and someone to help you move a 200 pound drive into place. You have to manually thread the tape when you load it, but I actually consider that a plus as it is one less thing to go wrong compared to an auto loading tape drive. I currently have a couple of them that I have used with Q-Bus systems. I agree with the recommendation to use an Emulex QT13 interface. That is what I have used in TMSCP mode to install 2.11BSD and RSTS/E 10.1 from tape on an 11/73 system. I also have one or more Dilog DQ130/132/140/142 Pertec interfaces (I forget what the models are, some don't have manuals on Bitsavers). Those aren't quite as friendly to set up and use as the QT13. I'd have to look and see how many QT13 cards I have. Probably more than two for the two M2444AC drives I have. I just built cables myself. I have a 3M Scotchflex 3640 press which makes it easy to press the IDC connectors on to the cable. I bought a full 100-foot roll of 3M 1700/50 or 3365/50 cable for a reasonable price on eBay. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Mar 18 15:00:15 2019 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 13:00:15 -0700 Subject: DECimage questions In-Reply-To: <2ab542b4-0847-737d-ca9c-e6e85a8d63f0@illinois.edu> References: <2ab542b4-0847-737d-ca9c-e6e85a8d63f0@illinois.edu> Message-ID: Thanks so much for the detailed response! I?m especially glad to know regular 72pin SIMMs should work. If I find a DEC reseller that has DECimage or 10Base-T boards for a reasonable price, I?ll let you know. ? Chris From glg at grebus.com Mon Mar 18 21:38:05 2019 From: glg at grebus.com (Gary Grebus) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 22:38:05 -0400 Subject: DECimage questions In-Reply-To: <712F24D7-AB8B-492E-93F4-55CA5343D8D1@eschatologist.net> References: <712F24D7-AB8B-492E-93F4-55CA5343D8D1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 3/17/19 15:36, Chris Hanson wrote: > I recently acquired a DECimage X terminal, which is theoretically a VXT-2000 with an add-on 2D accelerator. Unfortunately while the terminal is badges as a DECimage it didn?t include the board, just a frame buffer. > You may not find any software that can actually use the DECimage board. DEC's strategy for using X terminals for image display was based around the X Imaging Extension (XIE). That was an extension to the X protocol that allowed an application to setup a rendering pipeline (decompress, scale, filter, color adjust, etc) and then "transport" the image into the pipeline. If the X server had an accelerator, then the pipeline might get mapped onto the accelerator hardware. It was almost a win on the underpowered VAX's of the day (especially for decompression). So to take advantage of the accelerator, an application had to make XIElib calls (analogous to Xlib). The libraries (and XIE) were part of the VMS and Ultrix products, but I'm not sure there was anything that used them (maybe some example programs). I don't remember if board for the VXT2000 had any other capabilities that might have helped with normal X server operations. -- Gary From andrewsofbg at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 00:38:51 2019 From: andrewsofbg at gmail.com (craig andrews) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 22:38:51 -0700 Subject: Any intel UPP-103 personality boards for sale? Message-ID: <16FF595F-01BA-4355-91A7-8B0517BDCD06@gmail.com> I am in the market for a UPP-816 and a UPP-878 personality boards if anyone is thinking of selling theirs. Please message me. Thanks Craig From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Mar 19 01:49:08 2019 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 07:49:08 +0100 Subject: DECimage questions In-Reply-To: <712F24D7-AB8B-492E-93F4-55CA5343D8D1@eschatologist.net> References: <712F24D7-AB8B-492E-93F4-55CA5343D8D1@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: On 2019-03-17 20:36, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: > I recently acquired a DECimage X terminal, which is theoretically a VXT-2000 with an add-on 2D accelerator. Unfortunately while the terminal is badges as a DECimage it didn?t include the board, just a frame buffer. > > Does anyone have a spare DECimage board they?d be interested in parting with, or know a reasonable place to obtain one? You have the board number? Sometimes if we discuss something here, magically boards show up on ebay. Just an observation ;-) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 03:22:19 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:22:19 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0af701d4de2c$df2ca7c0$9d85f740$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman > via cctalk > Sent: 19 March 2019 02:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I > am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I a pre-V6 one for my Atari but have never used it in the Atari. It is now in my IBM PC Server but its only used for backup. Its in a single ended SCSI-1 card and its noticeably slower than the fast/wide spinning disks in the RAID array. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > V5 is GPL and the guy who built it was more than willing to talk about the code. I was wondering about adding tape support but he says that?s harder than you think... > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > Yes, Chinese vendors... > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after > speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent > with the era. > I think a lot of hardware supports synchronous transfers. I think for me it was the narrow/wide that slowed it down. > Chuck Dave From svens at stackframe.org Tue Mar 19 03:32:05 2019 From: svens at stackframe.org (Sven Schnelle) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:32:05 +0100 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190319083205.GA29895@t470p.stackframe.org> Hi, On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:15:48PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I own the V6 of this thing, and mostly used it with my HP9000/300 systems. In the beginning i had some trouble with HP-UX running from it, but there were some updates in the source repo end of last year which fixed these issues. I never had a V5, so i can't compare. > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. It's partly open-source. The source code for the ST micro controller is open, but the FPGA part not. Only a binary blob is in the source repository. Regards Sven From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Mar 19 04:54:00 2019 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:54:00 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: <20190319083205.GA29895@t470p.stackframe.org> References: <20190319083205.GA29895@t470p.stackframe.org> Message-ID: I?m using v5.1 on a PDP-11/23 with an Emulex UC07 and it works well. I haven?t tried it on any other systems though. Get Outlook for iOS On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 4:32 AM -0400, "Sven Schnelle via cctalk" wrote: Hi, On Mon, Mar 18, 2019 at 10:15:48PM -0400, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. I own the V6 of this thing, and mostly used it with my HP9000/300 systems. In the beginning i had some trouble with HP-UX running from it, but there were some updates in the source repo end of last year which fixed these issues. I never had a V5, so i can't compare. > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. It's partly open-source. The source code for the ST micro controller is open, but the FPGA part not. Only a binary blob is in the source repository. Regards Sven From dstalk at execulink.com Mon Mar 18 18:14:13 2019 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Mon, 18 Mar 2019 19:14:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: POP-2 silver book Message-ID: <20190318231413.49EEABEE876@cel2.x> Is there anyone out there who could scan page 261 of "Programming in POP-2" by Burstall, Collins, and Popplestone for me? Also, does anyone have a copy of POP-10? Thanks, Don From sophaskins at sophaskins.net Tue Mar 19 07:58:58 2019 From: sophaskins at sophaskins.net (Sophie Haskins) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:58:58 +0000 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've had pretty great luck with using SCSI2SDs in my various mostly-90s workstations (https://blog.pizzabox.computer/, among a few others). In a few cases (VAXstation 4000 VLC, Quadra 610) you need to put the settings to emulate a "real" model of drive, but otherwise compatibility has been pretty good. Someone later in the thread mentioned tape support - I haven't used it, but the configuration utility has the option to set a given SCSI ID to present itself as a tape drive. I have a feeling I'm gonna need to explore this when I get around to trying to get my Sun 3/80 running... Sophie -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Mar 19 10:26:30 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 10:26:30 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> On 03/18/2019 10:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > 4. Anyone ever make a pertec to USB project? Might be interesting to get access to old tapes on more modern computers? > > I have some CDC (Laser Magnetic Storage) 92185 drives (known as Keystone, this is the 1600/6250 version, buffered Pertec Interface). I made a horrible hack of an FPGA board I make to read tapes through a PC's parallel port. it works, but is real slow. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 19 10:37:36 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 08:37:36 -0700 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> Message-ID: <0831abad-7ff2-8987-63c9-4379e7f381f2@bitsavers.org> On 3/18/19 8:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/Fujitsu-2444AC/ > I'm still looking for the schematics for this drive. Unlike many other Fujitsu storage products, the schematics aren't included in the service manual. It's possible they were 11x17 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 11:10:30 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 09:10:30 -0700 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> On 3/19/19 8:26 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 03/18/2019 10:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> 4.????? Anyone ever make a pertec to USB project? Might be interesting >> to get access to old tapes on more modern computers? >> >> > I have some CDC (Laser Magnetic Storage) 92185 drives (known as > Keystone, this is the 1600/6250 version, buffered Pertec Interface).? I > made a horrible hack of an FPGA board I make to read tapes through a > PC's parallel port.? it works, but is real slow. I discovered after doing an interface with some CPLDs that you really need buffer memory to keep things going. My ISA-interface Computer Logics 16-bit card with 256K of memory does a pretty good job with my Fuji. I generally don't like SCSI interface tapes because they must buffer ahead to keep the tape going, so when an error occurs, you have only a general idea of exactly where it is. With a Pertec interface, you can usually pin things down (controller permitting) a bit better. I've got an on-again-off-again project using an STM32F29 MCU running at 180MHz with 256K of SRAM on-chip and 8MB of RAM off-chip to do Pertec interface work. My point is not to interface to any particular computer, but to provide for transfer between SD card flash and the tape drive. Data and control will be USB, but only after a complete tape has been read. I do a similar thing with an HP7970 and an STM32F407 MCU for 7 and 9 track NRZI tapes. Several years ago, I made a simple Pertec interface ISA card using 3 8255 PPI chips. While it worked, it made the need for buffering very apparent. --- On the subject of tapes, I was reminded about how "more is less" in terms of software. The job was to transfer some tar files from DDS tapes. With Linux running on a quad core 3 GHz 64 bit setup, I'd get tape "scrubbing" periodically (the drive was a Sony SDT5000) using dd. On a 450 Mhz K6 system running MS-DOS, the tape streams without interruption using a simple ASPI-interface program. The controller in both cases is an Adaptec PCI UW SCSI controller. --Chuck From dstalk at execulink.com Tue Mar 19 11:25:01 2019 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:25:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: POP-2 silver book Message-ID: <20190319162502.0B7B9BEE899@cel2.x> Thanks, page 261 has been found! Now for POP-2 or POP-10. Don From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 11:35:52 2019 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 11:35:52 -0500 Subject: HELP needed on a vocabulary problem ;-) In-Reply-To: <3336ad48b8ef12617af70f4a3b2b88819103ac5c.camel@pbcl.net> References: <454CC91308564B5680C71B27DDCDABB1@medion> <3336ad48b8ef12617af70f4a3b2b88819103ac5c.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: Sent from my Apple /////c > On Mar 18, 2019, at 7:34 AM, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > >> On Mon, 2019-03-18 at 13:03 +0100, GerardCJAT via cctalk wrote: >> The TECHNICAL problem : I am repairing a not so old electric typewriter. >> I need to replace what I call : a flexible printed circuit ( strip / ribbon / what's the "correct" word ??? ) *** AND *** the associated connector > > "FFC"/"FPC" and "FFC/FPC connector" possibly. Are these the sort of things you mean? > > https://uk.farnell.com/molex/15015-0423/cable-assy-23core-101-6mm-brown/dp/2096098?st=fpc > > https://uk.farnell.com/te-connectivity/1-1734248-9/fpc-connector-receptacle-19-position/dp/1846686?st=fpc%20connector Maybe if there's a repair manual for the typewriter it would have the part/term listed there? I'm not sure without picture and Phil sounds like he has a good technical term but most flexible cables I've just heard called ribbon cables. But I'm probably lumping all flat cables into the same category as a floppy drive/ide type cable. From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Mar 19 13:52:12 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 18:52:12 +0000 Subject: POP-2 silver book In-Reply-To: <20190318231413.49EEABEE876@cel2.x> References: <20190318231413.49EEABEE876@cel2.x> Message-ID: <1553021532490.48503@w2hx.com> Amazing! I saw POP and I recognized it. I used to work for Professor Robin Popplestone while I was at UMASS Amherst working in their "laboratory for perceptual robotics" around 1988-89. He was quite a character! Died some years ago I heard. Interestingly, he never attained his PHd. Rumor was the had the whole thesis typed up (on typewriters in those days) and was going to continue working on editing on a boat. Well you know what happened next, water 1, thesis 0. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Don Stalkowski via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 7:14 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: POP-2 silver book Is there anyone out there who could scan page 261 of "Programming in POP-2" by Burstall, Collins, and Popplestone for me? Also, does anyone have a copy of POP-10? Thanks, Don From rp at servium.ch Tue Mar 19 14:05:10 2019 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 20:05:10 +0100 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is it perfect? No. Is it worth a try? Absolutely! I have both V5 and V6 and they work very well "most of the time". Some machines just don't like them (usually in the form of frequent bus resets). Some machines work better with the V5 and others better with the V6, and sometimes settings need to be tweaked, but overall I am very happy with them. I use them mostly as a CD-ROM replacement for installing the OS, and it saves enormous amounts of time and CD-Rs. Speed is definitely not an issue. On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 3:16 AM Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck > From john at forecast.name Tue Mar 19 14:26:38 2019 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 15:26:38 -0400 Subject: POP-2 silver book In-Reply-To: <1553021532490.48503@w2hx.com> References: <20190318231413.49EEABEE876@cel2.x> <1553021532490.48503@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <166F5848-2307-462B-8DF4-BAB1DD0AF02E@forecast.name> Since the topic of POP-2 doesn?t come up very often? In the early 1970?s I had a listing of ?Pop-2 in Pop-2?, a portable compiler written in itself. Over the years I?ve managed to lose it. Would anyone here have a copy? John. > On Mar 19, 2019, at 2:52 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Amazing! I saw POP and I recognized it. I used to work for Professor Robin Popplestone while I was at UMASS Amherst working in their "laboratory for perceptual robotics" around 1988-89. He was quite a character! Died some years ago I heard. Interestingly, he never attained his PHd. Rumor was the had the whole thesis typed up (on typewriters in those days) and was going to continue working on editing on a boat. Well you know what happened next, water 1, thesis 0. > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Don Stalkowski via cctalk > Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 7:14 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: POP-2 silver book > > Is there anyone out there who could scan page 261 of > "Programming in POP-2" by Burstall, Collins, and Popplestone > for me? > > Also, does anyone have a copy of POP-10? > > Thanks, Don > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 19 14:38:49 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 12:38:49 -0700 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <13fa7b1e-26cc-1ac2-0aa9-4cfab049bad7@sydex.com> FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. --Chuck From jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 14:50:22 2019 From: jstefanikcctalk at gmail.com (Jim Stefanik) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 14:50:22 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I too have been using these for a few years; also on mostly 90s workstations and servers (Sun, SGI, Alpha, Apple, etc). I think I have about a dozen or so V5 boards. I've not tried the V6, as I've heard numerous stories of poor compability. The multi-mode emulation works fine. I booted my Sun SPARCStation 10 from a Solaris ISO using CD-ROM emulation mode and installed the OS onto an emulated HDD running on the same SCSI2SD. --- Jim Stefanik Dallas Vintage Computing Center ________________________________ From: Sophie Haskins via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, 19 March 2019 07:58 To: Charles Dickman; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? I've had pretty great luck with using SCSI2SDs in my various mostly-90s workstations (https://blog.pizzabox.computer/, among a few others). In a few cases (VAXstation 4000 VLC, Quadra 610) you need to put the settings to emulate a "real" model of drive, but otherwise compatibility has been pretty good. Someone later in the thread mentioned tape support - I haven't used it, but the configuration utility has the option to set a given SCSI ID to present itself as a tape drive. I have a feeling I'm gonna need to explore this when I get around to trying to get my Sun 3/80 running... Sophie -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 18, 2019 10:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the V6 available. It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without following the GPL. V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be consistent with the era. Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Mar 19 15:28:36 2019 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 16:28:36 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: <13fa7b1e-26cc-1ac2-0aa9-4cfab049bad7@sydex.com> References: <13fa7b1e-26cc-1ac2-0aa9-4cfab049bad7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <8D9EEBA71C4A4EB4ACFA48E4F0E24F25@teoPC> Those are ATAPI to SCSI. -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 3:38 PM To: Rico Pajarola via cctalk Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. --Chuck --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Tue Mar 19 13:07:21 2019 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 13:07:21 -0500 Subject: DECimage questions Message-ID: On Tue Mar 19 01:49:08 CDT 2019 >On 2019-03-17 20:36, Chris Hanson via cctalk wrote: >>/I recently acquired a DECimage X terminal, which is theoretically a VXT-2000 with an add-on 2D accelerator. Unfortunately while the terminal is badges as a DECimage it didn?t include the board, just a frame buffer. / >>// >>/Does anyone have a spare DECimage board they?d be interested in parting with, or know a reasonable place to obtain one? / >>You have the board number? >>Sometimes if we discuss something here, magically boards show up on ebay. >>Just an observation ;-) Does MA-0270-92A help? got that number out of the VXT 2000 Installing and Getting Started Guide (EK-VXT20-IN), but it might be a two-part kit (accelerator board + DECimage sticker). The VXT 2000 Windowing Terminal and DECimage 2000 Option Service Guide (EK-VXT20-SV) lists VX20A-OP for the DECimage 2000 module. For the twisted pair ethernet module, the same manual lists 54-20482-01. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Mar 19 16:32:04 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 21:32:04 -0000 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: <8D9EEBA71C4A4EB4ACFA48E4F0E24F25@teoPC> References: <13fa7b1e-26cc-1ac2-0aa9-4cfab049bad7@sydex.com> <8D9EEBA71C4A4EB4ACFA48E4F0E24F25@teoPC> Message-ID: <174d01d4de9b$32f79310$98e6b930$@gmail.com> They are very particular, and you need to be careful. I have one in DVD drive and it won't work with normal single ended SCSI only LVD. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of TeoZ via cctalk > Sent: 19 March 2019 20:29 > To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > Those are ATAPI to SCSI. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 3:38 PM > To: Rico Pajarola via cctalk > Subject: Re: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? > > FWIW, there are a couple of Addonics AEC7722 adapters (SCSI-to-IDE) > selling for $50-70 on eBay. Don't know a thing about them, though. > > --Chuck > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Mar 19 21:51:51 2019 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 02:51:51 +0000 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com>, <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> The pertec-to-SD project sounds very cool. Keep me in mind if you need testers/buyers. 73 Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, March 19, 2019 12:10 PM To: Jon Elson via cctalk Subject: Re: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 On 3/19/19 8:26 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 03/18/2019 10:35 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> 4. Anyone ever make a pertec to USB project? Might be interesting >> to get access to old tapes on more modern computers? >> >> > I have some CDC (Laser Magnetic Storage) 92185 drives (known as > Keystone, this is the 1600/6250 version, buffered Pertec Interface). I > made a horrible hack of an FPGA board I make to read tapes through a > PC's parallel port. it works, but is real slow. I discovered after doing an interface with some CPLDs that you really need buffer memory to keep things going. My ISA-interface Computer Logics 16-bit card with 256K of memory does a pretty good job with my Fuji. I generally don't like SCSI interface tapes because they must buffer ahead to keep the tape going, so when an error occurs, you have only a general idea of exactly where it is. With a Pertec interface, you can usually pin things down (controller permitting) a bit better. I've got an on-again-off-again project using an STM32F29 MCU running at 180MHz with 256K of SRAM on-chip and 8MB of RAM off-chip to do Pertec interface work. My point is not to interface to any particular computer, but to provide for transfer between SD card flash and the tape drive. Data and control will be USB, but only after a complete tape has been read. I do a similar thing with an HP7970 and an STM32F407 MCU for 7 and 9 track NRZI tapes. Several years ago, I made a simple Pertec interface ISA card using 3 8255 PPI chips. While it worked, it made the need for buffering very apparent. --- On the subject of tapes, I was reminded about how "more is less" in terms of software. The job was to transfer some tar files from DDS tapes. With Linux running on a quad core 3 GHz 64 bit setup, I'd get tape "scrubbing" periodically (the drive was a Sony SDT5000) using dd. On a 450 Mhz K6 system running MS-DOS, the tape streams without interruption using a simple ASPI-interface program. The controller in both cases is an Adaptec PCI UW SCSI controller. --Chuck From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Mar 19 22:14:59 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2019 20:14:59 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2019 is this weekend Message-ID: One last short reminder ... VCF PNW 2019 is this weekend! We have 30 exhibits, 6 presentations, and the consignment area. Admission is free with paid admission to the museum, so come check out both the event and the museum! Details can be found at http://vcfed.org/vcf-pnw . -Mike From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 20 09:56:22 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 09:56:22 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com>, <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> On 03/19/2019 09:51 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > The pertec-to-SD project sounds very cool. Keep me in mind if you need testers/buyers. > > Yes, me too! I still have a working 92185 (Keystone) drive, and could be interested if your design is not too expensive. Thanks, Jon From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Wed Mar 20 10:37:49 2019 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 11:37:49 -0400 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, TD systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 bit ALPHA machines. The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with a SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD.? I am using a 64 bit Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't run on the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled.? However, I still use a Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. Doug On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > V6 available. > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > following the GPL. > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > consistent with the era. > > Chuck From jsw at ieee.org Wed Mar 20 10:59:54 2019 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 10:59:54 -0500 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0e48ae8b-e9f2-2c4d-819a-f93910f5b179@ieee.org> The system I use (OSX) to mange the SCSI2SD cards configuration and firmware doesn't have a SCSI.? I'd think of it more as a "nice to have" than a requirement.? The V6 cards allow data exchange via USB2. If you have the appropriate images, you can just DD the data directly to the microSD cards on OSX and Linux.? I move and backup images for RT11,? XXDP,? NeXT (Intel and 68K),? SunSparc, Linux and VMS this way.? The V5 cards have shown themselves to be quite versatile in my shop. ?? Jerry On 3/20/19 10:37 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. > On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, > TD systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. > I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 > bit ALPHA machines. > > The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with > a SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD.? I am using a 64 > bit Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't > run on the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled.? However, I > still use a Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. > > Doug > > On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 20 12:09:43 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 10:09:43 -0700 Subject: Link MK1 and GP4 Message-ID: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> Josh scanned some Link Mark I documentation, and I found a pdf describing some of the history of early Link digital flight simulators uploaded to: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/Link_Mark_I From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed Mar 20 13:20:58 2019 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 13:20:58 -0500 Subject: Link MK1 and GP4 In-Reply-To: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> References: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 12:58 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Josh scanned some Link Mark I documentation, and I found a pdf describing > some of the history of early Link digital flight simulators > > uploaded to: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/Link_Mark_I Interesting reading, thanks for sharing. For those interested, some pics I took in 2016 of of a GP-4 at the old NWA Sim Center before demolition. The drum had been converted to (disk-loadable) solid state. https://goo.gl/photos/yb83SJSj67gS96n39 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Mar 20 14:39:03 2019 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2019 12:39:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Link MK1 and GP4 In-Reply-To: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> References: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Josh scanned some Link Mark I documentation, and I found a pdf describing > some of the history of early Link digital flight simulators > > uploaded to: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/Link_Mark_I I'm a huge fan of Link simulators (it's why the simpits.org colors are blue & yellow!). Thanks Al! g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From als at thangorodrim.ch Wed Mar 20 18:35:02 2019 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 00:35:02 +0100 Subject: SCSI2SD: Is it worth a try? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190320233502.elusfwkyez5oruux@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Mar 20, 2019 at 11:37:49AM -0400, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've used the SCSI2SD with great success with vintage DEC computers. > On QBUS machines, both vax and pdp-11, it has worked with Emulex UC07, TD > systems Viking, Andromeda SCDC and the DEC RQZX1 controllers. > I have used it on native SCSI controllers in VAX 3100, VLC 4000 and 64 bit > ALPHA machines. > > The only other point I would make is that you need a linux system with a > SCSI controller to move data in/out of the SCSI2SD.? I am using a 64 bit > Debian system and I found that the 32 bit SCSI2SD utility wouldn't run on > the 64 bit machine and needed to be recompiled.? However, I still use a > Windows 7 computer to setup the SCSI2Sd via USB. That is most likely due to missing libraries. On a 64 bit Linux system, by default only 64 bit libraries are installed (duh), but usually you can install 32 bit libraries to support 32 bit binaries. Exactly how to go about it of course depends on your distribution. Kind regards, Alex. > On 3/18/2019 10:15 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > What is the experience with the SCSI2SD with old computers? It looks to be > > SCSI-1 and SCSI-2 compatible and I see a lot of reports of usage on this > > list. I am curious about how well it works and which version to get. > > > > Versions up to 5 seem to be GPLed and reasonably available. V6 does not > > seem to have schematics or boards open sourced and I haven't seen a > > supplier for them. The web page lists some sources, but they don't have the > > V6 available. > > > > It looks like the V6 is not open because someone used the design without > > following the GPL. > > > > V6 claims synchronous transfers, but I don't think most of my hardware > > supports it. That consists of VAXstations and qbus scsi cards. If I was > > after speed I wouldn't be using old hardware, but the speed has to be > > consistent with the era. > > > > Chuck > -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Mar 20 19:25:33 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 00:25:33 +0000 Subject: Link MK1 and GP4 In-Reply-To: References: <9aae1a87-f78b-3d86-c5f3-34e526260ef2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/20/19 3:39 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 20 Mar 2019, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> Josh scanned some Link Mark I documentation, and I found a pdf describing >> some of the history of early Link digital flight simulators >> >> uploaded to: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/generalPrecision/Link_Mark_I > > I'm a huge fan of Link simulators (it's why the simpits.org colors are > blue & yellow!).? Thanks Al! > I used to drive past the building a couple times a week. Always wanted to work there. Was sad when the Simulation business was sold of and pillaged by the buyer. A Canadian company, I think. That was a long time ago. bill From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 02:26:37 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 00:26:37 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection Message-ID: What is the shortest subroutine on a PDP-8 which will add two variables in RAM and return the saturated sum (that is, returning 2047 or -2048 upon overflow, otherwise the sum) in the accumulator? Kyle From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 21 10:37:26 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:37:26 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> Hmm, sounds like a fun thing to figure out. How about this for a start. Naive, written five minutes before I have to catch my bus, untested. I hope I understood the problem at least :) /P SATSUM,0 CLA CLL TAD I SATSUM ISZ SATSUM TAD I SATSUM ISZ SATSUM SNL JMP I SATSUM AND (4000) SZA TAD (3777) JMP I SATSUM On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:26:37AM -0700, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > What is the shortest subroutine on a PDP-8 which will add two variables in > RAM and return the saturated sum (that is, returning 2047 or -2048 upon > overflow, otherwise the sum) in the accumulator? > > Kyle From cube1 at charter.net Thu Mar 21 10:40:00 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 10:40:00 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 3/20/2019 9:56 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 03/19/2019 09:51 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> The pertec-to-SD project sounds very cool. Keep me in mind if you need >> testers/buyers. >> >> > Yes, me too!? I still have a working 92185 (Keystone) drive, and could > be interested if your design is not too expensive. > > Thanks, > > Jon > Me Three. I have a couple of Pertec drives. From jfoust at threedee.com Thu Mar 21 11:05:43 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 11:05:43 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20190321160552.6F63227455@mx1.ezwind.net> At 10:40 AM 3/21/2019, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >Me Three. I have a couple of Pertec drives. I've got an untested Cipher F880640-90-1025U here in Jefferson, WI. Pertec interface, I believe. This one doesn't do 800, though, right? - John From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 21 11:36:12 2019 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:36:12 +0100 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection In-Reply-To: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> References: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> I thought about it during the bus ride home. I don't think I got it right. I'll try again after the kids go to bed. /P On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 04:37:26PM +0100, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > Hmm, sounds like a fun thing to figure out. How about this for a start. > Naive, written five minutes before I have to catch my bus, untested. > > I hope I understood the problem at least :) > > /P > > SATSUM,0 > CLA CLL > TAD I SATSUM > ISZ SATSUM > TAD I SATSUM > ISZ SATSUM > SNL > JMP I SATSUM > AND (4000) > SZA > TAD (3777) > JMP I SATSUM > > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:26:37AM -0700, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > What is the shortest subroutine on a PDP-8 which will add two variables in > > RAM and return the saturated sum (that is, returning 2047 or -2048 upon > > overflow, otherwise the sum) in the accumulator? > > > > Kyle From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 21 11:40:23 2019 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:40:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Jay Jaeger wrote: > On 3/20/2019 9:56 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 03/19/2019 09:51 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >>> The pertec-to-SD project sounds very cool. Keep me in mind if you need >>> testers/buyers. >>> >>> >> Yes, me too!? I still have a working 92185 (Keystone) drive, and could >> be interested if your design is not too expensive. > > Me Three. I have a couple of Pertec drives. I have a couple of unformatted drives and could use some formatters with Pertec interface... Christian From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Thu Mar 21 12:50:07 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 17:50:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Rk611 controller References: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543@mail.yahoo.com> I just acquired an RK07 drive and disk packs. I am looking for the 5 Unibus boards and back plane to add to my 11/84.? Brian. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 14:07:17 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 15:07:17 -0400 Subject: Rk611 controller In-Reply-To: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: there was a guy in Pennsylvania near Philadelphia who just sold an 11/84 that had RK07 drives, he may have a spare set IIRC, I went to check it out for myself but did not buy the system (too pricey for me no space at the moment). I am not at my computer where I have his contact info, let me know if you'd like me to follow up / set you up with poss source and I will know to check when I get home today or tomorrow. Bill On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 1:50 PM Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > I just acquired an RK07 drive and disk packs. I am looking for the 5 > Unibus boards and back plane to add to my 11/84. > > Brian. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > From jesse at cypress-tech.com Thu Mar 21 12:21:27 2019 From: jesse at cypress-tech.com (Jesse Dougherty) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 13:21:27 -0400 Subject: HP 1000 Series board available. Message-ID: <89d7df8d-ec4c-b553-43e2-f1636da7f678@cypress-tech.com> I have a bunch of these boards for the 1000 A class servers... I have plenty of each of the following. If anyone wants or needs and of the following, let me know. 12040x? Asynchronous Multiplexer - $50.00 each 12009A? HP-IB Interface - $75.00 each 12103D? 1MB Memory board - $65.00 each 12103C? 512kb Memory board - $65.00 each 12220A? 768kb Memory board - $65.00 each Thanks Jesse Cypress Technology Inc From curt at atarimuseum.com Thu Mar 21 14:50:45 2019 From: curt at atarimuseum.com (Curt Vendel) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 15:50:45 -0400 Subject: Opening old DEC files Message-ID: I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. They don?t open well in programs like the Windows Text editors Is there a program on Windows that can open these files and recognize all of the formatting and control commands so they can be properly viewed? From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 15:20:17 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 13:20:17 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? Message-ID: Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document number 29650N36L ? Some of it's identifying features are using .BYT and .WOR (or .WORD) directives for declaring data, and .MACRO and .ENDM directives for declaring macros. Use of the macro directives can be seen in the RM65-5101 Floppy Disk Controller (FDC) Module User's Manual, document number 29801N02 There are countless 6502 assemblers available now, the exercise here is to identify the macro assembler that was used at the time. If it is available to run now the goal would be to run it to assemble source code exactly in the format that it used and produce identical listing output. (Modifying the source code to be accepted by a different assembler to produce identical binary output is not the goal of the exercise). From db at db.net Thu Mar 21 15:37:24 2019 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:37:24 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20190321203724.GC66365@night.db.net> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 01:20:17PM -0700, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > number 29650N36L ? I'd not be surprised if it was the ROM version of the assembler one could optonally get for the AIM. I assembled up the FIG FORTH release using it. P.S. I still have my first AIM 65. -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://artemis.db.net/~db From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Mar 21 15:47:00 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 16:47:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> > On March 21, 2019 at 4:20 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > number 29650N36L ? > I would suspect it was the Rockwell System 65 Development System assembler mentioned in this book: https://www.commodore.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1981_Rockwell_Electronic_Devices_Division_Data_Book.pdf on page 295 Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:28:42 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 21:28:42 +0000 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> References: , <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: It is possibly an in house generated assembler. It may even have been written in Forth. Most Forth assemblers are written as single pass but it is not hard to make it a multiple pass. Such an assembler could have been cobbled together in Forth in a couple weeks of one programmer. I do know that they did extensive internal work in Forth. I have a ICE product that was clearly done in Forth ( missing pods and personality floppies ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Will Cooke via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:47 PM To: Glen Slick; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > On March 21, 2019 at 4:20 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > number 29650N36L ? > I would suspect it was the Rockwell System 65 Development System assembler mentioned in this book: https://www.commodore.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1981_Rockwell_Electronic_Devices_Division_Data_Book.pdf on page 295 Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise." -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with // " -- https://isocpp.org From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 16:52:56 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 14:52:56 -0700 Subject: ISO: Sanders Associates 720 hardware docs / parts Message-ID: Hi all -- I picked up a Sanders 720 terminal -- well, the display/keyboard portion anyway -- and I'm looking for actual hardware documentation so I can maybe someday replicate the 701 control unit (or heck, maybe someone has a 701 sitting around somewhere...). Anyone out there have docs (apart from the brochures already on bitsavers) or any parts lying around? Thanks as always! Josh From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 21 17:21:38 2019 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 22:21:38 +0000 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <36fecff9-4314-5020-1b47-ce11ee48031e@ntlworld.com> On 21/03/2019 19:50, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. > > Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. > > They don?t open well in programs like the Windows Text editors > > Is there a program on Windows that can open these files and recognize all of the formatting and control commands so they can be properly viewed? I remember using a non-DEC word processor on VAX/VMS at uni: it was either MASS-11 or WORD-11. I don't know how you would read that on anything other than VMS with the original word processor software. .MAI files are from the VMS Mail utility. The easy way to read those is to use VMS (maybe on SIMH if you don't have the hardware). There might be DECUS utilities that would pull apart VMS mail files for you and turn them into something else. This does remind me that I have a whole chunk of VMSMAIL messages myself, so perhaps I should look into something like this too! I do know that DEC was one of the first large users of MS Outlook. As part of the move away from VMSMAIL there was a conversion utility that would take your VMSMAIL files and turn them into an outlook PST (I think). From there there are tools that can turn a PST into eml files. There was a PC version of ALL-IN-1 (or maybe it was just the WPS part). That existed at the same time as the VMS ALL-IN-1 product so surely it must be able to read those files? That's assuming you can find a copy of the program. I never used it in anger, so I've no idea whether it supported exporting to other formats. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini antonio at acarlini.com From mhs.stein at gmail.com Thu Mar 21 17:24:14 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 18:24:14 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? References: Message-ID: I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of original Rockwell source out there? m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 4:20 PM Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > number 29650N36L ? > > Some of it's identifying features are using .BYT and .WOR (or .WORD) > directives for declaring data, and .MACRO and .ENDM directives for > declaring macros. Use of the macro directives can be seen in the > RM65-5101 Floppy Disk Controller (FDC) Module User's Manual, document > number 29801N02 > > There are countless 6502 assemblers available now, the exercise here > is to identify the macro assembler that was used at the time. If it is > available to run now the goal would be to run it to assemble source > code exactly in the format that it used and produce identical listing > output. (Modifying the source code to be accepted by a different > assembler to produce identical binary output is not the goal of the > exercise). From cube1 at charter.net Thu Mar 21 19:02:43 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 19:02:43 -0500 Subject: Fujitsi 2444AC 9-track tape drive/PDP-11 In-Reply-To: References: <4f1fc31d65a94f38a9bfee458f81a92f@EXBE015SV3.NA02.MSEXCHANGEOUTLOOK.COM> <5C910A26.8030805@pico-systems.com> <031b799b-d72d-184a-b8ef-27ec5382bbd3@sydex.com> <1553050312254.30546@w2hx.com> <5C925496.9010506@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1c6476b8-0f39-09bb-c127-8a856caa47df@charter.net> On 3/21/2019 11:40 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Jay Jaeger wrote: >> On 3/20/2019 9:56 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 03/19/2019 09:51 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >>>> The pertec-to-SD project sounds very cool. Keep me in mind if you need >>>> testers/buyers. >>>> >>>> >>> Yes, me too!? I still have a working 92185 (Keystone) drive, and could >>> be interested if your design is not too expensive. >> >> Me Three.? I have a couple of Pertec drives. > > I have a couple of unformatted drives and could use some formatters with > Pertec interface... > > Christian > I have some Pertec formatters - but shipping over the pond would be prohibitive? They are in unknown condition, and likely need work. I'd have to look up their capabilities - I seem to recall at least one of them was for a 7 track drive (or maybe 7/9 drive). A couple of them hosted a mouse one year, but were subsequently cleaned up: BOX CATEGORY ROOM LOCATION DESCRIPTION Type SERIAL_NUMBER Replacement NOTES Inventory Pertec Formatter #1 UNIT Garage Slot 14 Pertec Formatter F649-72 UNIT Mouse entered, but cleaned 9/18/2012 Pertec Formatter #2 UNIT Garage Slot 14 Pertec Formatter F649-40 UNIT Mouse entered, but cleaned 9/18/2012 Pertec Formatter #3 UNIT Garage Slot 14 Pertec Formatter F649-72 UNIT Cleaned 9/18/2012 From cube1 at charter.net Thu Mar 21 20:13:38 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 20:13:38 -0500 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> On 3/21/2019 2:50 PM, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. > > Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. > > They don?t open well in programs like the Windows Text editors > > Is there a program on Windows that can open these files and recognize all of the formatting and control commands so they can be properly viewed? > > > > > Perhaps restore them onto a SimH VMS instance, and use that to print the document files and mail the mail to yourself? From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Mar 21 21:54:29 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 19:54:29 -0700 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> References: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> Message-ID: <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> > On Mar 21, 2019, at 6:13 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/21/2019 2:50 PM, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: >> I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. >> >> Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. >> >> They don?t open well in programs like the Windows Text editors >> >> Is there a program on Windows that can open these files and recognize all of the formatting and control commands so they can be properly viewed? >> >> >> >> >> > > Perhaps restore them onto a SimH VMS instance, and use that to print the > document files and mail the mail to yourself? Word-11 will be tricky. I?m not aware of anyone having the media for that. ALL-IN-1 is easy, if you?re running it, you can export as a MS compatible doc. Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 00:09:06 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2019 22:09:06 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of original Rockwell source out there? > I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match. The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was preserved. Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you ever find a copy or scan of that manual? Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card 0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end. I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM. It might be something specific to the system where this card was being used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 02:20:48 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 02:20:48 -0500 Subject: Rk611 controller In-Reply-To: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1423393686.8070129.1553190607543@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Hi Brian, I might have one left, but I won't be able to check until next week. I know I have a few RK06 and RK07 packs and two RK07 drives a list member wanted but never picked them up. Thanks, Paul On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:50 PM Brian Roth via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just acquired an RK07 drive and disk packs. I am looking for the 5 > Unibus boards and back plane to add to my 11/84. > > Brian. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 05:48:53 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 06:48:53 -0400 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> References: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > > > > On 3/21/2019 2:50 PM, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > >> I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. > >> > >> Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. > >> > > > Word-11 will be tricky. I?m not aware of anyone having the media for > that. ALL-IN-1 is easy, if you?re running it, you can export as a MS > compatible doc. > > Zane > Someone (?) with Word11 and terminal software installed on a Rainbow could download them, open, convert and upload in asci or other usable format? Or is that easier said than done. Bill > > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 05:50:54 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 11:50:54 +0100 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 20:50, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > > I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. > > Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. > > They don?t open well in programs like the Windows Text editors > > Is there a program on Windows that can open these files and recognize all of the formatting and control commands so they can be properly viewed? Wow, I bet they don't! That's a great question. I used tools such as that myself, decades ago, but I didn't get to keep any documents. I've even had the issue of importing from Word 6 into Word 97 and later. I run Word 97 even now, under WINE on Ubuntu, not because there's anything in 97 I need -- there isn't -- but because it uses the same file-format as versions up to 2003 (Win)/2004 (Mac). I'd rather run an even older, lighter version such as Word 95 or Word 6 for NT, but they use an older file-format modern WPs can't import. A late version of WordPerfect for DOS *might* do it... I have WP6.2 for DOS running on PC DOS 7.1 and it runs fine on modern hardware. I'm not confident, though. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Mar 22 06:54:06 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 07:54:06 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> References: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1767299402.80812.1553255646809@email.ionos.com> > On March 21, 2019 at 4:47 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On March 21, 2019 at 4:20 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > > number 29650N36L ? > > I would suspect it was the Rockwell System 65 Development System assembler mentioned in this book: > > > https://www.commodore.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1981_Rockwell_Electronic_Devices_Division_Data_Book.pdf > > on page 295 > On further investigation I found this line on Rich Cini's site: I also recently received recompilable copies of the AIM monitor ROM in an A65 version and a TASM version. Here's a cached copy of A65 v1.04, the assembler used for the A65 source files. The TASM files can be compiled using the Telemark table assembler (TASM) from Squak Valley Software. My personal preference is TASM, which I use for all of my 6502- and 8080-based cross-assembly projects. Here's the link:?http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm#RWS So perhaps the A65 assembler listed there is the correct one? -Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 22 07:26:10 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:26:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember seeing touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. Brian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 07:52:56 2019 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:52:56 -0000 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brian Roth via > cctalk > Sent: 22 March 2019 12:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets > > Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close > matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember > seeing touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond > colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. > Brian I have just had a can of spray paint made to match some new kitchen cupboards. They had ventilation grills inserted to provide airflow to a gas boiler and they now match the doors. Many car paint shops in the UK can do this. Dave From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Fri Mar 22 11:18:56 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 16:18:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1730919027.8549898.1553271536691@mail.yahoo.com> I did check with an auto body supply shop and they said they could get a close match with paint to spray from a gun. I was hoping somebody may have found an off the shelf spray can that was close. On Friday, March 22, 2019, 8:52:58 AM EDT, Dave Wade wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brian Roth via > cctalk > Sent: 22 March 2019 12:26 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets > > Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close > matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember > seeing touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond > colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. > Brian I have just had a can of spray paint made to match some new kitchen cupboards. They had ventilation grills inserted to provide airflow to a gas boiler and they now match the doors. Many car paint shops in the UK can do this. Dave From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 11:32:31 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:32:31 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? References: Message-ID: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> I assume you've looked at RM65-dos.zip on Rich Cini's site? http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 1:09 AM Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: >> >> I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of original Rockwell source out there? >> > > I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In > particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT > Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine > readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get > that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code > from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source > code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of > the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match. > > The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax > of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation > perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was > preserved. > > Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were > looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you > ever find a copy or scan of that manual? > > Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E > FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM > I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low > level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card > 0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end. > I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM. > It might be something specific to the system where this card was being > used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a > copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC > Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to > connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 11:53:58 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:53:58 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? References: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> <1767299402.80812.1553255646809@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <49BAD99C458944EC926339A86E5CD3F5@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Will Cooke via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" ; "Glen Slick" Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 7:54 AM Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > On March 21, 2019 at 4:47 PM Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > > > On March 21, 2019 at 4:20 PM Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Anyone know what 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor > > ROM, as shown in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing manual, document > > number 29650N36L ? > > I would suspect it was the Rockwell System 65 Development System assembler mentioned in this book: > > > https://www.commodore.ca/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/1981_Rockwell_Electronic_Devices_Division_Data_Book.pdf > > on page 295 > On further investigation I found this line on Rich Cini's site: I also recently received recompilable copies of the AIM monitor ROM in an A65 version and a TASM version. Here's a cached copy of A65 v1.04, the assembler used for the A65 source files. The TASM files can be compiled using the Telemark table assembler (TASM) from Squak Valley Software. My personal preference is TASM, which I use for all of my 6502- and 8080-based cross-assembly projects. Here's the link: http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm#RWS So perhaps the A65 assembler listed there is the correct one? -Will ----------------------- I'd be surprised; I think it's more likely that they used the R6500 Macro Assembler you linked to in your previous post. There was also an R6500 Software Preparation System (SPS) but it's much more limited; looking through the manual I don't see any mention of macros and there are only 4 .OPTs vs. the 18 in the Macro Assembler. m From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 22 11:59:34 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 09:59:34 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted cross-assembler? I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. --Chuck From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Mar 22 12:14:54 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: <767314420.46814.1553274894210@email.ionos.com> > On March 22, 2019 at 12:59 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell > stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted > cross-assembler? > > I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. > > --Chuck I was thinking the same thing and actually went looking for one, but the only reference I could find was to a PDP-11 cross-compiler version of one of the other languages available on the AIM. I don't remember which, PL-65 maybe. Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Mar 22 12:16:29 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:16:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <49BAD99C458944EC926339A86E5CD3F5@310e2> References: <423074268.34652.1553201220996@email.ionos.com> <1767299402.80812.1553255646809@email.ionos.com> <49BAD99C458944EC926339A86E5CD3F5@310e2> Message-ID: <1735523088.46845.1553274989039@email.ionos.com> > On March 22, 2019 at 12:53 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > > On further investigation I found this line on Rich Cini's site: > > I also recently received recompilable copies of the AIM monitor ROM in an A65 version and a TASM version. Here's a cached copy of A65 v1.04, the assembler used for the A65 source files. The TASM files can be compiled using the Telemark table assembler (TASM) from Squak Valley Software. My personal preference is TASM, which I use for all of my 6502- and 8080-based cross-assembly projects. > > > Here's the link: http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm#RWS > So perhaps the A65 assembler listed there is the correct one? > > -Will > ----------------------- > I'd be surprised; I think it's more likely that they used the R6500 Macro Assembler you linked to in your previous post. > > > m Yes. Right after posting that I looked into the .zip file and it appears to have MS-DOS executables, so not likely. Was just waiting on someone to call me on it :-) Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 12:22:16 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:22:16 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "Mike Stein via cctalk" Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 12:59 PM Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell > stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted > cross-assembler? > > I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. > > --Chuck ------------------------ That's quite possible; it's unlikely that they used one of the RM65/AIM65 assemblers, but I couldn't find any reference in the brief description of the Macro Assembler regarding what system it ran on. m From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 12:28:51 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 10:28:51 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell > stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted > cross-assembler? > > I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. The date in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing header block in the source code is Aug 22, 1978. That is less than 1 year after the introduction date of the VAX-11/780. I suppose it still could have been something that ran on a VAX by then, or a PDP-11 (or PDP-10?), or some other mainframe/mini host if it wasn't self hosted on a Rockwell 6502 development system. It's really just more of a curiosity issue at this point if anyone finds a definitive answer. From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 12:40:43 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 10:40:43 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:44 AM Mike Stein wrote: > > I assume you've looked at RM65-dos.zip on Rich Cini's site? > > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini/systems.htm > That is where I found the a copy of the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E FDC Controller manual in the RM-65 FDC & DOS link. I didn't notice the link for the binary files there too. I just took a look at that. I'm not sure exactly what that is. It doesn't appear to be for the DOS firmware that would be located on the FDC Controller EPROM along with the low level FDC primitives located at $8000 - $8EFF. The manual lists the part number for the firmware ROM as A65-090. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 22 13:14:35 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 11:14:35 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: <565845de-d362-86c0-f8c1-eb895f9a4f4d@sydex.com> On 3/22/19 10:28 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> >> At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell >> stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted >> cross-assembler? >> >> I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. > > The date in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing header block in the > source code is Aug 22, 1978. That is less than 1 year after the > introduction date of the VAX-11/780. I suppose it still could have > been something that ran on a VAX by then, or a PDP-11 (or PDP-10?), or > some other mainframe/mini host if it wasn't self hosted on a Rockwell > 6502 development system. > > It's really just more of a curiosity issue at this point if anyone > finds a definitive answer. Many cross-assemblers for early MPUs were written in (shudder!) FORTRAN. There were several good reasons for this. The first is that if you had a mini or mainframe, you were pretty much guaranteed to have FORTRAN, which had been implemented under various standards since 1966. The other is that in the 70s, there was still a population of six-bit character machines not using ASCII, not to forget the ones using EBCDIC. So hard-coding character sets into programs that were supposed to be portable over a wide range of machines was an issue. I think some of the old FORTRAN code for PALASM may still be around, as an example. --Chuck From pietstan15 at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 13:49:16 2019 From: pietstan15 at gmail.com (stan) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 14:49:16 -0400 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <1730919027.8549898.1553271536691@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> <1730919027.8549898.1553271536691@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <94bd33cb-af2c-f430-149e-20da2134d25f@gmail.com> On 2019-03-22 12:18 p.m., Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > I did check with an auto body supply shop and they said they could get a close match with paint to spray from a gun. I was hoping somebody may have found an off the shelf spray can that was close. > On Friday, March 22, 2019, 8:52:58 AM EDT, Dave Wade wrote: > > > I've seen some auto body supply shops that have teh capability to take a custom mixed paint and inject it into an aerosol spray can. This was years ago, however, and environmental regulations may have eliminated that option. Stan >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brian Roth via >> cctalk >> Sent: 22 March 2019 12:26 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets >> >> Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close >> matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember >> seeing touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond >> colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. >> Brian > > I have just had a can of spray paint made to match some new kitchen cupboards. > They had ventilation grills inserted to provide airflow to a gas boiler and they now match the doors. > Many car paint shops in the UK can do this. > > Dave > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Mar 22 13:50:51 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 11:50:51 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <565845de-d362-86c0-f8c1-eb895f9a4f4d@sydex.com> References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> <565845de-d362-86c0-f8c1-eb895f9a4f4d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2019-Mar-22, at 11:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/22/19 10:28 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell >>> stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted >>> cross-assembler? >>> >>> I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. >> >> The date in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing header block in the >> source code is Aug 22, 1978. That is less than 1 year after the >> introduction date of the VAX-11/780. I suppose it still could have >> been something that ran on a VAX by then, or a PDP-11 (or PDP-10?), or >> some other mainframe/mini host if it wasn't self hosted on a Rockwell >> 6502 development system. >> >> It's really just more of a curiosity issue at this point if anyone >> finds a definitive answer. > > Many cross-assemblers for early MPUs were written in (shudder!) FORTRAN. > There were several good reasons for this. > > The first is that if you had a mini or mainframe, you were pretty much > guaranteed to have FORTRAN, which had been implemented under various > standards since 1966. > > The other is that in the 70s, there was still a population of six-bit > character machines not using ASCII, not to forget the ones using EBCDIC. > So hard-coding character sets into programs that were supposed to be > portable over a wide range of machines was an issue. > > I think some of the old FORTRAN code for PALASM may still be around, as > an example. In that vein: When I was tasked (1980) with producing a cross-assembler and cross-compiler for the 68000 for our R&D sys, (Verex OS / Z language), the first operating target was Motorola's 68000 emulator running on the campus mainframe (MTS on Amdahl / 370). (Followed by hardware, which was a 68000 exerciser board or a bare SUN-1 processor board). I'm pretty sure there was also a 68000 cross-assembler from Moto on the Amdahl, although I'm not sure whether I used it or not, might have to confirm it's output with the output from mine. IIRC the Moto programs were written in Fortran (oops, FORTRAN). From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Mar 22 14:10:09 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 19:10:09 +0000 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <94bd33cb-af2c-f430-149e-20da2134d25f@gmail.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> <1730919027.8549898.1553271536691@mail.yahoo.com> <94bd33cb-af2c-f430-149e-20da2134d25f@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/22/19 2:49 PM, stan via cctalk wrote: > > > On 2019-03-22 12:18 p.m., Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: >> I did check with an auto body supply shop and they said they could get >> a close match with paint to spray from a gun. I was hoping somebody >> may have found an off the shelf spray can that was close. >> ???? On Friday, March 22, 2019, 8:52:58 AM EDT, Dave Wade >> wrote: >> > > I've seen some auto body supply shops that have? teh capability to take > a custom? mixed paint and inject? it into an aerosol spray can. This was > years ago,? however,? and environmental regulations may have eliminated > that option. Check out : https://preval.com/ All you need then is someone who can mix your color. And I would expect any place that sells bulk automotive paint can do that. The last time I bought any (for a car, not a computer) you had to buy a minimum of a quart. That's not much and, at least 15 years ago, it was not particularly expensive. bill From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Mar 22 14:54:53 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 12:54:53 -0700 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: References: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 22, 2019, at 3:48 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > > > > On 3/21/2019 2:50 PM, Curt Vendel via cctalk wrote: > >> I have many DEC files that I?ve recovered from old VMS backups to a PC. > >> > >> Many are Word-11, ALL-IN-1 WPS and VMS Mail MAI files. > >> > > > Word-11 will be tricky. I?m not aware of anyone having the media for that. ALL-IN-1 is easy, if you?re running it, you can export as a MS compatible doc. > > Zane > > Someone (?) with Word11 and terminal software installed on a Rainbow could download them, open, convert and upload in asci or other usable format? Or is that easier said than done. > Bill Is Word-11 available for the Rainbow? A few years back, I *think* there was a discussion of converting Word-11 files from a RSTS/E system. I just can?t remember any specific?s, or even if it was on this list. In digging some more WordPerfect v5.3 for VMS can handle converting WPS-Plus documents. I don?t know if Corel will still sell it. I?m still trying to remember how to convert them in ALL-IN-1. Years ago, there was a program for the Mac that would convert a TON of different file formats. Trying to figure out what that was, I found this. I?m half tempted to buy a license, even though I don?t need it. It would work on the XP VM I have to keep around to drive a film scanner. I don?t see support for Word-11, but it does support MASS-11. http://file-convert.com/flmn.htm#fmn_sf Zane From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 22 14:59:34 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 14:59:34 -0500 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: References: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20190322195943.16EAB273DA@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:54 PM 3/22/2019, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >Years ago, there was a program for the Mac that would convert a TON of different file formats. Trying to figure out what that was, Rings a bell, I can't remember the name either, but I think I have a copy. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Fri Mar 22 15:18:01 2019 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 15:18:01 -0500 Subject: Opening old DEC files Message-ID: <20190322201919.7A112273EA@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:54 PM 3/22/2019, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >Years ago, there was a program for the Mac that would convert a TON of different file formats. Trying to figure out what that was, MacLinkPlus. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MacLinkPlus_Deluxe http://www.sonic.net/mnitepub/pccafe/reviews/dataviz_maclinkplus/dataviz_maclinkplus.html - John From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Mar 22 15:20:42 2019 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:20:42 -0700 Subject: Opening old DEC files In-Reply-To: <20190322195943.16EAB273DA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <344a742d-dfdd-da22-4093-38ee3106085b@charter.net> <3DF2451F-A48B-41B8-93D1-B0124E2B7289@avanthar.com> <20190322195943.16EAB273DA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <632CBB7D-A3DB-4718-AF0A-7A67280B8F7F@avanthar.com> > On Mar 22, 2019, at 12:59 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 02:54 PM 3/22/2019, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> Years ago, there was a program for the Mac that would convert a TON of different file formats. Trying to figure out what that was, > > Rings a bell, I can't remember the name either, but I think I have a copy. > > - John I inherited a copy (quite literally). I managed to remember the company name is DataViz. That led me to the product (MacLink Plus). Sadly it looks like it?s strictly Windows and Mac doc?s. https://web.archive.org/web/20080901054905/http://www.dataviz.com/products/maclinkplus/ https://web.archive.org/web/20080531052205/http://www.dataviz.com/products/maclinkplus/mlp_xlators.html Zane From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 15:47:48 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 13:47:48 -0700 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <565845de-d362-86c0-f8c1-eb895f9a4f4d@sydex.com> References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> <565845de-d362-86c0-f8c1-eb895f9a4f4d@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:14 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Many cross-assemblers for early MPUs were written in (shudder!) FORTRAN. > There were several good reasons for this. > I think some of the old FORTRAN code for PALASM may still be around, as > an example. There is a lot of FORTRAN source code in the HP 1000 software collection on Bitsavers, including versions of PALASM20 and PALASM24 that were originally Copyright 1983 by MMI. 12025-18001_Rev-2501.src 12025-18002_Rev-2501.src Those tools were used to build some fuse maps of PAL devices on the A-Series boards. There is also FORTRAN source code for DEF29 and ASM29, a microcode meta assembler for the AMD 2900 series. Those were originally Copyright 1980 by MICROTEC, Sunnyvale CA. 24998-18643_Rev-5000.src 24998-18644_Rev-5000.src Those tools were used to build the microcode for the A600 CPUs. From chd at chdickman.com Fri Mar 22 18:23:05 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 19:23:05 -0400 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 8:26 AM Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close > matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember seeing > touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond > colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. > Brian > On the topic of DEC colors, FWIW, A few years ago I took DEC STD 092 and attempted to converted the colors to RGB. You can take the conversions with a grain of salt, but the Color Specifications are from the standard. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 22 19:22:54 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:22:54 -0400 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> Message-ID: <9C23B1D35F874D0D92E2F8EC7B841908@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Glen Slick via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 1:28 PM Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> >> At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell >> stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted >> cross-assembler? >> >> I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. > > The date in the AIM-65 Monitor Program Listing header block in the > source code is Aug 22, 1978. That is less than 1 year after the > introduction date of the VAX-11/780. I suppose it still could have > been something that ran on a VAX by then, or a PDP-11 (or PDP-10?), or > some other mainframe/mini host if it wasn't self hosted on a Rockwell > 6502 development system. > > It's really just more of a curiosity issue at this point if anyone > finds a definitive answer. ---------------------- I expect it was their Macro Assembler running on one of the systems shown at the bottom of the page here: http://oldcomputers.net/AIM-65-40.html From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 22 19:26:45 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:26:45 -0400 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 22, 2019, at 7:23 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 8:26 AM Brian Roth via cctalk > wrote: > >> Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close >> matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember seeing >> touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond >> colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. >> Brian >> > > On the topic of DEC colors, FWIW, > > A few years ago I took DEC STD 092 and attempted to converted the colors to > RGB. You can take the conversions with a grain of salt, but the Color > Specifications are from the standard. > > http://www.chdickman.com/pdp8/DECcolors/ Nice. What would also be interesting is a mapping from those obscure color specifications to Pantone color numbers. That probably would address those "out of gamut" colors, for one thing. paul From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 22 21:25:19 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 21:25:19 -0500 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> <316d01d4e0ae$2c17de00$84479a00$@gmail.com> <1730919027.8549898.1553271536691@mail.yahoo.com> <94bd33cb-af2c-f430-149e-20da2134d25f@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5C95990F.9020108@pico-systems.com> On 3/22/19 2:49 PM, stan via cctalk wrote: >> >> I've seen some auto body supply shops that have teh capability to take >> a custom mixed paint and inject it into an aerosol spray can. Some years ago there was an outfit that sold re-fillable aerosol cans. They had a Schraeder tire valve on them and a screw-on cap to pour the paint in. it was kind of like a miniature compressed-air paint sprayer that carried its own air supply. I have no idea if these are still available. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 22 22:11:04 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2019 20:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZFQK/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 23 02:07:36 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 01:07:36 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" would help. Ben. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 02:18:13 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 02:18:13 -0500 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: what end of canada its a big country On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 2:07 AM ben via cctalk wrote: > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal > like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware > Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > would help. Ben. > > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 23 02:50:05 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 01:50:05 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <67856026-2932-94ac-b494-230befd2c582@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/23/2019 1:18 AM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > what end of canada its a big country > > > On Sat, Mar 23, 2019 at 2:07 AM ben via cctalk > wrote: > > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal > like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware > Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > would help. Ben. > Hmm We have cows and grass and oil pumps outside. This must be the middle of the Alberta. Cold Lake if you really want to know. I have just finished a 20 BIT CPU design with a DE1 (ORIGINAL) FPGA development card, and looking at the 1974 - 1976 time frame for a physical computer hardware design. The bare metal part is done, so now have test and clean up the logic details and I/O devices. Late this year I plan to have software and hardware pre-tested on the FPGA card before I start laying out the mother board and PCBs. This will be a modern version but basically a 1975 ish logic design. Small Proms, 74LSxxx and 2901A's and MK4096 4Kx1 Dram speeds. Ben. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 23 03:41:54 2019 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:41:54 +0000 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com>, Message-ID: Would this be useful? http://geoffg.net/terminal.html Henk, PA8PDP ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens ben via cctalk Verzonden: Saturday, March 23, 2019 8:07:36 AM Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" would help. Ben. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 23 04:02:07 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 03:02:07 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/23/2019 2:41 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Would this be useful? > > http://geoffg.net/terminal.html > > Henk, PA8PDP It would be if it had RS232 rather than TTL? outputs. To source all that stuff with the high price of USA to Canada shipping it would be about $150? Canadian as a guess. This link might be more useful to a lot of people on the list. TTY's and service still can be found here, if the web page can be believed. http://www.johnwhitney.com/misc/paul-rtty.htm > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* cctalk namens ben via cctalk > > *Verzonden:* Saturday, March 23, 2019 8:07:36 AM > *Aan:* cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Onderwerp:* Only never in Canada - dumb terminals > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal > like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware > Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > would help. Ben. > From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 23 06:50:52 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:50:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1541352517.8896555.1553341852822@mail.yahoo.com> Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.? https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint. Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZFQK/ From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 23 06:50:52 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:50:52 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1541352517.8896555.1553341852822@mail.yahoo.com> Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.? https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint. Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip. Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZFQK/ From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sat Mar 23 07:14:28 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:14:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <1541352517.8896555.1553341852822@mail.yahoo.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <1541352517.8896555.1553341852822@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1362413455.152506.1553343268754@email.ionos.com> > On March 23, 2019 at 7:50 AM Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > > Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.? > https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint. > Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android > > On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZFQK/ How about a cheap airbrush kit? https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=testors+airbrush&qid=1553343199&s=gateway&sr=8-1 "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From turing at shaw.ca Sat Mar 23 07:17:38 2019 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 06:17:38 -0600 (MDT) Subject: middle-aged APL terminal Message-ID: <1764407970.202675264.1553343458305.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Hi All: This is my periodic request for technical details on a Cybernex APL-100 terminal - the only documentation that I have for it is the sales brochure... From abacos_98 at yahoo.com Sat Mar 23 07:18:44 2019 From: abacos_98 at yahoo.com (Brian Roth) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:18:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <1362413455.152506.1553343268754@email.ionos.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <1541352517.8896555.1553341852822@mail.yahoo.com> <1362413455.152506.1553343268754@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1496921196.8876295.1553343524033@mail.yahoo.com> Thought about that too. They have them at the local Harbor Freight as well. >How about a cheap airbrush kit? https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=testors+airbrush&qid=1553343199&s=gateway&sr=8-1 On Saturday, March 23, 2019, 7:14:44 AM CDT, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > On March 23, 2019 at 7:50 AM Brian Roth via cctalk wrote: > > > Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. I found this.? > https://duplicolor.com/product/perfect-match-premium-automotive-paint. > Now I just need to match the color from a paint chip. > > Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >? >? On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 11:11 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: https://www.amazon.com/Jacquard-YouCAN-Refillable-Powered-Spray/dp/B0748KZFQK/ How about a cheap airbrush kit? https://www.amazon.com/Testors-4030-Amazing-Airbrush-Set/dp/B0013MURE8/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=testors+airbrush&qid=1553343199&s=gateway&sr=8-1 "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From cym224 at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 08:50:59 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:50:59 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On 03/23/19 03:07, ben via cctalk wrote: > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal > like a VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware > Solutions here in Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > would help. Ben. > Livewire was mentioned to me once -- they sell new and used stuff. I have not dealt with them so I cannot personally vouch for them but they may be worth an email. Steve Pinto Livewire Computer Solutions Inc 116 Galaxy Blvd Toronto ON M9W 4Y6 416-798-3410 spinto at livewire.ca N. From rlloken at telus.net Sat Mar 23 09:56:01 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 08:56:01 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal like a > VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware Solutions here in > Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > would help. Ben. I have a couple Volker-Craigs in the attic doing nothing. They are a bit newer than a VT52 but they are pretty dumb and I am in Athabasca. You can have them for free, you can get them soon if you come get them yourself. You can get them later if you wait for me to bring them to you. Volker-Craigs were built out of TTL in Waterloo, Ontario between 1980 and 1985 and they do RS-232. I probably have the service manual if I look hard. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 11:07:28 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 12:07:28 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "ben via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 5:02 AM Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals > On 3/23/2019 2:41 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Would this be useful? >> >> http://geoffg.net/terminal.html >> >> Henk, PA8PDP > > It would be if it had RS232 rather than TTL? outputs. > To source all that stuff with the high price of USA to Canada shipping > it would be about $150? Canadian as a guess. ------------ I'm just about to build one of those; looks like the cost will be more like C$40.00 including 9 extra PCBs. As to RS-232, it can provide TTL or 0-3.3V 'pseudo-RS-232' which usually works in my experience, but if you need 'true' RS-232 there are tiny TTL<>RS-232 adapters on eBay for < $2.00 I believe Rich Cini built one; maybe he can add something m From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Mar 23 11:15:05 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 16:15:05 +0000 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> Message-ID: On 3/23/19 12:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ben via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 5:02 AM > Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals > > >> On 3/23/2019 2:41 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Would this be useful? >>> >>> http://geoffg.net/terminal.html >>> >>> Henk, PA8PDP >> >> It would be if it had RS232 rather than TTL? outputs. >> To source all that stuff with the high price of USA to Canada shipping >> it would be about $150? Canadian as a guess. > > ------------ > I'm just about to build one of those; looks like the cost will be more like C$40.00 including 9 extra PCBs. > > As to RS-232, it can provide TTL or 0-3.3V 'pseudo-RS-232' which usually works in my experience, but if you need 'true' RS-232 there are tiny TTL<>RS-232 adapters on eBay for < $2.00 > > I believe Rich Cini built one; maybe he can add something Where does one get the board? Are you planning to offer any of your extras for sale? I could definitely use one or two of them. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 23 11:19:13 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 09:19:13 -0700 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <4848fe67-f9bb-320d-f959-11c0f14ef8eb@bitsavers.org> On 3/23/19 7:56 AM, Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > I probably have the service manual if I > look hard. > getting a copy to scan would be a good thing. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Mar 23 12:11:37 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:11:37 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> Message-ID: <4B3AEC01FDDD4FBC9440AE69EA35D6D4@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bill Gunshannon via cctalk" To: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 12:15 PM Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals On 3/23/19 12:07 PM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "ben via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 5:02 AM > Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals > > >> On 3/23/2019 2:41 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Would this be useful? >>> >>> http://geoffg.net/terminal.html >>> >>> Henk, PA8PDP >> >> It would be if it had RS232 rather than TTL? outputs. >> To source all that stuff with the high price of USA to Canada shipping >> it would be about $150? Canadian as a guess. > > ------------ > I'm just about to build one of those; looks like the cost will be more like C$40.00 including 9 extra PCBs. > > As to RS-232, it can provide TTL or 0-3.3V 'pseudo-RS-232' which usually works in my experience, but if you need 'true' RS-232 there are tiny TTL<>RS-232 adapters on eBay for < $2.00 > > I believe Rich Cini built one; maybe he can add something Where does one get the board? Are you planning to offer any of your extras for sale? I could definitely use one or two of them. bill --------- The Gerber files are in the 'construction pack' at the bottom of the linked page; the readme.txt and errata.jpg should probably be removed before sending to a PCB house. But I'll happily send you one or two boards once they get here; just ordered them a week ago. Maybe Rich also has a couple spare. m From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Mar 23 14:27:36 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 13:27:36 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> Message-ID: <33bf42da-e09a-ade1-e984-b1daf368fba5@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/23/2019 10:07 AM, Mike Stein wrote: > As to RS-232, it can provide TTL or 0-3.3V 'pseudo-RS-232' which usually works in my experience, but if you need 'true' RS-232 there are tiny TTL<>RS-232 adapters on eBay for < $2.00 But $80 shipping over night to canada with my luck. > I believe Rich Cini built one; maybe he can add something Australia is a good ways away from here. The link is here for the micro controller and PCB. https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Shop/8/2760 It is a good deal if you have the other parts, but I am looking for a older terminal with a real keyboard and screen. The first computer I used had the TTY I/O and I liked that keyboard feel. Ben. From reboot at ncf.ca Sat Mar 23 10:27:41 2019 From: reboot at ncf.ca (Mike Kenzie) Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2019 11:27:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> I have a several in Ottawa as well. A few different brands, ASR, Dec, VC ----- Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: > > > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal like a > > VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware Solutions here in > > Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian > > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. > > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" > > would help. Ben. > > I have a couple Volker-Craigs in the attic doing nothing. They are a > bit newer than a VT52 but they are pretty dumb and I am in Athabasca. > You can have them for free, you can get them soon if you come get them > yourself. You can get them later if you wait for me to bring them to you. > > Volker-Craigs were built out of TTL in Waterloo, Ontario between 1980 > and 1985 and they do RS-232. I probably have the service manual if I > look hard. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From classiccmp at crash.com Sun Mar 24 04:34:00 2019 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 02:34:00 -0700 Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> > Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. > How about a cheap airbrush kit? Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as needed. I've taken a superficial look or three over the years, but haven't found another. And I've mislaid the one from years back, so I don't have a brand or product name. Anybody have a line on that sort of thing? Maybe what Fred linked will serve... --S. From peters-cctech at techwiz.ca Sun Mar 24 07:51:30 2019 From: peters-cctech at techwiz.ca (Peter Sjoberg) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:51:30 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: <33bf42da-e09a-ade1-e984-b1daf368fba5@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <3bfbea99-2ac9-d607-5cd8-10b915069e89@jetnet.ab.ca> <3F349854173D4A07BB1C7A7D75D79475@310e2> <33bf42da-e09a-ade1-e984-b1daf368fba5@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <771beacd-dfbc-04e3-6de0-de3af711b5e4@techwiz.ca> On 2019-03-23 3:27 p.m., ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/23/2019 10:07 AM, Mike Stein wrote: >> As to RS-232, it can provide TTL or 0-3.3V 'pseudo-RS-232' which >> usually works in my experience, but if you need 'true' RS-232 there >> are tiny TTL<>RS-232 adapters on eBay for < $2.00 > > But $80 shipping over night to canada with my luck. > >> I believe Rich Cini built one; maybe he can add something > Australia is a good ways away from here. > > The link is here for the micro controller and PCB. > https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Shop/8/2760 > It is a good deal if you have the other parts, > but I am looking for a older terminal with a > real keyboard and screen. The first computer > I used had the TTY I/O and I liked that keyboard feel. > Ben. Here is a project I bookmarked some time ago - make your own vt220 https://hackaday.com/2018/12/20/behold-the-wt-220-a-clever-vt-220-terminal/ /ps From rlloken at telus.net Sun Mar 24 09:42:18 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:42:18 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, Mike Kenzie via cctalk wrote: > I have a several in Ottawa as well. A few different brands, ASR, Dec, VC Do you have any Volker-Craig user or service documentation? Docs from Canadian companies seem to disappear in a puff of green smoke. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 24 10:59:23 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 08:59:23 -0700 Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> Message-ID: On 3/24/19 2:34 AM, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: >> Looks like a great idea but the reviews say otherwise. Dangerous even. > >> How about a cheap airbrush kit? > > Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another > of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the > disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or > Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this > one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as > needed. Isn't that what Fred pointed to? --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 11:27:21 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 12:27:21 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: And I have some in Toronto; Falco, ADM-11 and bits & pieces. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Kenzie via cctalk" Cc: Sent: Saturday, March 23, 2019 11:27 AM Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals >I have a several in Ottawa as well. A few different brands, ASR, Dec, VC > > ----- Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, ben via cctalk wrote: >> >> > I am building a project that needs to use a Stand alone dumb terminal like a >> > VT 52 or Similar. Alas I can't find any low cost Hardware Solutions here in >> > Canada. Low cost with shipping under is $150 Canadian >> > for me.Software terminal emulation is just a stop gap fix. >> > Any ideas out there. Even a better search keyword than "dumb terminal" >> > would help. Ben. >> >> I have a couple Volker-Craigs in the attic doing nothing. They are a >> bit newer than a VT52 but they are pretty dumb and I am in Athabasca. >> You can have them for free, you can get them soon if you come get them >> yourself. You can get them later if you wait for me to bring them to you. >> >> Volker-Craigs were built out of TTL in Waterloo, Ontario between 1980 >> and 1985 and they do RS-232. I probably have the service manual if I >> look hard. >> >> -- >> Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, >> Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" >> ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black > From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 11:36:42 2019 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 12:36:42 -0400 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: <8BFAA2A2795D48769CEB2B2F8A1A2376@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Loken via cctalk" To: "Mike Kenzie" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 10:42 AM Subject: Re: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, Mike Kenzie via cctalk wrote: > >> I have a several in Ottawa as well. A few different brands, ASR, Dec, VC > > Do you have any Volker-Craig user or service documentation? Docs from > Canadian companies seem to disappear in a puff of green smoke. -------------------- No VC but I've got some Northern Technologies and Lanpar/Microterm docs somewhere. Also Burroughs TD800, various Falcos. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 24 12:43:17 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 10:43:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> Message-ID: >> Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another >> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the >> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or >> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this >> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as >> needed. On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Isn't that what Fred pointed to? Almost, and that part overlaps. I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about spraying paint) He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable "Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.) Long ago, I used a small air tank under the bench (a portable tire refiller), with a hose and a nozzle. Similar to: https://www.harborfreight.com/5-gallon-portable-air-tank-65594.html but with a standard air tool coupler, instead of an inflator output. Some people, for a "tire bottle", used a scuba tank, with a primary, but not secondary regulator. Now, a bottle of nitrogen is often used. For spraying tiny amounts of paint, is it possible to do an acceptable job? with: https://www.harborfreight.com/34-and-3-oz-airbrush-kit-62294.html -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 13:20:04 2019 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:20:04 +0000 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:42 PM Richard Loken via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 23 Mar 2019, Mike Kenzie via cctalk wrote: > > > I have a several in Ottawa as well. A few different brands, ASR, Dec, VC > > Do you have any Volker-Craig user or service documentation? Docs from > Canadian companies seem to disappear in a puff of green smoke. I'm not in Canada but I have a Volker-Craig VC414 (APL version) _with the service manual_. This is a poor copy (obtained from VC -- and they forgot to copy half of one of the schematics so I had to reverse-engineer that part) but I can try to scan it sometime. -tony From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 24 13:20:30 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 14:20:30 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page Message-ID: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Does anyone have an electronic copy of those pages or a paper copy they would be willing to scan for me? Thanks, Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 24 13:32:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:32:25 -0700 Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> Message-ID: <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> On 3/24/19 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another >>> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the >>> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or >>> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this >>> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as >>> needed. > > On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> Isn't that what Fred pointed to? > > Almost, and that part overlaps. > I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about > spraying paint) > He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable > "Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.) So this? https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air can hold a lot of moisture. -Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 24 13:39:59 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 11:39:59 -0700 Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6898f3bc-6c45-8432-0c10-f6a5dd12f6f7@sydex.com> On 3/24/19 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > So this? > > https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS > > Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air > can hold a lot of moisture. I'll also add that at 90 PSI, this won't hold much air for long--in the reviews, that's the major complaint. Better is a small "pony tank" that can be charged and transported. --Chuck From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Mar 24 14:03:00 2019 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 15:03:00 -0400 Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <6898f3bc-6c45-8432-0c10-f6a5dd12f6f7@sydex.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> <6898f3bc-6c45-8432-0c10-f6a5dd12f6f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <766f9530-3a72-dce5-41b3-dd10a2111776@gmail.com> On 03/24/2019 02:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 3/24/19 11:32 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> So this? >> >> https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS >> >> Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air >> can hold a lot of moisture. > I'll also add that at 90 PSI, this won't hold much air for long--in the > reviews, that's the major complaint. Better is a small "pony tank" > that can be charged and transported. > > --Chuck > ?To spray paint well a drier and regulator as best pressures are down around 20 to maybe 40psi. With lower pressure the need for additional tank and all not required.? I do a lot of work with an airbrush as its small volume and you can do fine detail work very well. Airbrushes also need lower volume of air so lower pressures require the regulator. Allison From mikelee at tdh.com Sun Mar 24 14:09:01 2019 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 14:09:01 -0500 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <237b6ec8-2b4e-18ea-3aa9-f4e01b790f84@tdh.com> On 3/24/2019 1:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Does anyone have an electronic copy of those pages or a paper copy they would be willing to scan for me? Hi, if no one else can provide this sooner, I can grab this issue from storage and scan that for you. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 24 14:09:13 2019 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 12:09:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Refillable spray can In-Reply-To: <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> References: <2FEBB0BC-9DCE-4274-84A7-F67CBAB181F1@fritzm.org> <83947E27-8418-478B-8826-135D09E7A24B@comcast.net> <86f79f7e-31d2-6997-333d-2f3c81177b0a@telegraphics.com.au> <973364B9-682D-4B8B-A86B-7AF40DA0FF9C@comcast.net> <6A0BA318-2D14-43F1-9D1A-BDF5E76F4DC5@comcast.net> <4a42d1aa-0464-55b2-c491-cf785d105d59@crash.com> <7f4c1965-6f06-17b1-eb60-e4c723fcfcaa@sydex.com> Message-ID: >>>> Reminds me of something I picked up years back, and haven't seen another >>>> of - a rechargeable compressed air sprayer. Works more or less like the >>>> disposable "canned air" sprayers you get by the half dozen at Fry's or >>>> Microcenter, complete with the plastic straw to direct the air. But this >>>> one had a bicycle pump valve on the bottom so you could refill it as >>>> needed. >>> Isn't that what Fred pointed to? >> Almost, and that part overlaps. >> I pointed to a refillable liquid sprayer. (we were talking about >> spraying paint) >> He's asking about a refillable air duster. (as opposed to the disposable >> "Dust-Off" from Fry's, etc.) > On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > So this? > > https://www.amazon.com/EWK-Aluminum-Pneumatic-Refillable-Compressed/dp/B00JKED4MS > > Just be sure to use a dryer on your compressor output. Compressed air > can hold a lot of moisture. Close, but that also is still intended for spraying liquids. The first Q&A asks, and people comment that for air, it won't hold enough ("5 seconds") It is a tiny size, with low pressure. A scuba "buddy bottle"/"pony bottle" can be pressurized to 3000 psi, instead of just 90 - 150 psi. Therefore, it needs a primary stage regulator, to get it down well below 150, and, as Chuck mentioned, a dryer if you don't want to spray a lot of water. Pneumatic tools are typically run at 80 to 120 psi. 90 is the nominal standard, although many shops run at 125, or even 150, for higher torque, at the expense of reduced tool life and safety. Your nozzle, for OSHA compliance, must be vented, so that when "dead-ended" blocking primary outlet, the pressure at the blocked end will be no more than 30psi. A compliant vented nozzle will put out far more output pressure (when NOT dead-ended) on 90 psi, than a non-vented nozzle at only 30 psi. For blowing dust, you do not want or need more than about 20 psi. A hose from a spare tire can do. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From pete at pski.net Sun Mar 24 15:40:18 2019 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 16:40:18 -0400 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Pete > On Mar 24, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Ha! I just happen to be looking through the BYTE magazines at the VCF museum this very moment. Here you go. Page 97 is an advertisement. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ltkjs2no3gnj8tv/AADUZICSjpQ2O7op0_u7e-7Ja?dl=0 From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 24 17:14:28 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 16:14:28 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals - video tex In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On 3/24/2019 10:27 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > And I have some in Toronto; Falco, ADM-11 and bits & pieces. > Did anyone out there (In Canada) buy the surplus VideoTex terminals, I saw Many Many years ago. Ben. From rlloken at telus.net Sun Mar 24 18:03:36 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 17:03:36 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On Sun, 24 Mar 2019, Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, Mar 24, 2019 at 2:42 PM Richard Loken via cctalk > wrote: > I'm not in Canada but I have a Volker-Craig VC414 (APL version) _with the > service manual_. This is a poor copy (obtained from VC -- and they forgot > to copy half of one of the schematics so I had to reverse-engineer that > part) but I can try to scan it sometime. I would like to see that scanned and set to bitsavers, all they have right now is some vc4404 material. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From trash80 at internode.on.net Sun Mar 24 18:29:54 2019 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 10:29:54 +1100 Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets In-Reply-To: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <1437146613.8430245.1553257570176@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <002801d4e299$7cac5750$760505f0$@internode.on.net> Try hardware stores - I believe Bunnings here (in Australia - may not exist where you are) can colour match from a part of a thing and then prepared an aerosol can of that colour. Kevin Parker 0418 815 527 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Brian Roth via cctalk Sent: Friday, 22 March 2019 11:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Matching paint on DEC monitors, cases and cabinets Has anyone ever found a source for aerosol spray cans that are a close matchto the colors that DEC used on their cases and such? I remember seeing touch up colors mentioned in the past. Specifically the ivory/almond colorof VT100's, DECservers, etc. Brian From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Mar 24 19:41:16 2019 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 00:41:16 +0000 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com>, <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: The american radio history site has this byte issue intact, with your missing pages: https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/70s/Byte-1978-01.pdf ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Peter Cetinski via cctalk Sent: Sunday, March 24, 2019 1:40 PM To: wrcooke at wrcooke.net; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page Pete > On Mar 24, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Ha! I just happen to be looking through the BYTE magazines at the VCF museum this very moment. Here you go. Page 97 is an advertisement. https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ltkjs2no3gnj8tv/AADUZICSjpQ2O7op0_u7e-7Ja?dl=0 From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Mar 24 20:15:47 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 18:15:47 -0700 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals - video tex In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On 2019-Mar-24, at 3:14 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 3/24/2019 10:27 AM, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: >> And I have some in Toronto; Falco, ADM-11 and bits & pieces. > Did anyone out there (In Canada) buy the surplus VideoTex terminals, > I saw Many Many years ago. Like this?: http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html Can't say I bought it, it was a donation, and I don't know the story of whoever donated it. Might have been purchased from the surplus store BCTel used to run, or it may have come from a former Microtel employee, or who knows. Saw a boxed converter-only unit (needed a TV for the display) in a thrift store around 2000, but passed it over. (I'm sure everybody else did too). I also scrapped a converter-only unit back around 2000 or so. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 24 20:24:11 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <237b6ec8-2b4e-18ea-3aa9-f4e01b790f84@tdh.com> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <237b6ec8-2b4e-18ea-3aa9-f4e01b790f84@tdh.com> Message-ID: <2132488186.158171.1553477051413@email.ionos.com> > On March 24, 2019 at 3:09 PM Michael Lee via cctech wrote: > > > On 3/24/2019 1:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Does anyone have an electronic copy of those pages or a paper copy they would be willing to scan for me? > > Hi, if no one else can provide this sooner, I can grab this issue from > storage and scan that for you. Thanks for the offer! Peter Cetinski had that issue readily available and sent a photo. -Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 24 20:24:11 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:24:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <237b6ec8-2b4e-18ea-3aa9-f4e01b790f84@tdh.com> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <237b6ec8-2b4e-18ea-3aa9-f4e01b790f84@tdh.com> Message-ID: <2132488186.158171.1553477051413@email.ionos.com> > On March 24, 2019 at 3:09 PM Michael Lee via cctech wrote: > > > On 3/24/2019 1:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. They all (including archive.org) appear to be the same scan. Does anyone have an electronic copy of those pages or a paper copy they would be willing to scan for me? > > Hi, if no one else can provide this sooner, I can grab this issue from > storage and scan that for you. Thanks for the offer! Peter Cetinski had that issue readily available and sent a photo. -Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 24 20:29:49 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 21:29:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: <1552021886.158217.1553477389609@email.ionos.com> > On March 24, 2019 at 4:40 PM Peter Cetinski wrote: > > > Pete > > On Mar 24, 2019, at 2:20 PM, Will Cooke via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > In the Jan 78 issue of Byte magazine a series of articles titled "The Brains of Men and Machines" (also the issue title on the cover) started. ?EVERY single scan I can find on the web is missing pages 96 and 97, right in the middle of that article. ?They all (including [archive.org](http://archive.org)) appear to be the same scan. > ? > Ha! ?I just happen to be looking through the BYTE magazines at the VCF museum this very moment. ?Here you go. Page 97 is an advertisement. > > > https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ltkjs2no3gnj8tv/AADUZICSjpQ2O7op0_u7e-7Ja?dl=0 Wow! This list is amazing! Thank you. I've been searching for that online for months. There are some scans on the VCF website that are the same ones on archive.org, missing that page. I really appreciate that. I'm posting those articles, as well as some related ones from Byte, online: http://wrcooke.net/classiccomputer/robot_brains/kent/byte_kent.html Thanks again, Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Mar 24 20:56:18 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sun, 24 Mar 2019 19:56:18 -0600 Subject: Only never in Canada - dumb terminals - video tex In-Reply-To: References: <587076222.202107.1549376018437@email.ionos.com> <1590165553.138614.1553354861285.JavaMail.zimbra@ncf.ca> Message-ID: On 3/24/2019 7:15 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > Like this?: > http://madrona.ca/e/telidon/index.html It was in a surplus store,So I expect it was parts from some larger device. This was in Vancover about 1990 ish. > Can't say I bought it, it was a donation, and I don't know the story of whoever donated it. > Might have been purchased from the surplus store BCTel used to run, or it may have come from a former Microtel employee, or who knows. > > Saw a boxed converter-only unit (needed a TV for the display) in a thrift store around 2000, but passed it over. > (I'm sure everybody else did too). > > I also scrapped a converter-only unit back around 2000 or so. > Ben. From kylevowen at gmail.com Mon Mar 25 00:25:58 2019 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 00:25:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection In-Reply-To: <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> References: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: Overflow can be summarized in a few ways, such as: (sign of arg_a XOR sign of arg_b == 0) AND (sign of arg XOR sign of result == 1) or, less intuitively, the carry into the sign != the carry out of the sign. My first inclination was to try the XOR approach, as that was most intuitive to me. Using the "traditional" XOR macro on a PDP-8 is rather inefficient, as you don't really care if you're XORing the rest of the bits; only the sign bit. Since the sign bit is the high bit of the AC, ignoring the link bit, simply adding the signs together results in an XOR of the signs. However, you can't simply add the arguments, as you need to ensure there are no carries into the sign bit; hence, ANDing one argument with 04000 prevents any potential carries in. I then realized that, when performing the addition with the link cleared, the parity (i.e. XOR) of the link bit and the three sign bits will also indicate overflow. So, all this to say, here's my implementation: /KYLE'S IMPLEMENTATION SATADD, 0 CLA CLL TAD ARGA TAD ARGB DCA SUM /NORMAL SUM RAR /LINK TO SIGN BIT TAD ARGA /SIGN OF LINK XOR SIGN OF ARGA AND (4000 TAD ARGB /XOR SIGN OF ARGB AND (4000 TAD SUM /XOR SIGN OF SUM SMA CLA /OVERFLOW? JMP NOPROB TAD SUM /YES, GENERATE CORRECT CONSTANT SPA CLA CMA TAD (4000 JMP I SATADD NOPROB, TAD SUM /NO OVERFLOW, RETURN JMP I SATADD ARGA, 0 ARGB, 0 SUM, 0 Vince Slyngstad and I worked on this puzzle at VCF PNW this weekend quite a bit, and I feel very compelled in declaring Vince the winner! Here's his very elegant solution: / / Saturation add / / Add ARGA and ARGB, returning the sum in AC. If integer overflow / occurs, return 3777 or 4000, depending on the sign, / SATADD, .-. TAD ARGA / Get first operand CLL RAL / Remember the sign CLA / ...but not the magnitude TAD ARGB / Get the second operand SPA / Is it negative? CML / Yes, add to sign(ARGA) TAD ARGA / Add the rest of ARGA SMA SNL / Link == sign == 0? JMP I SATADD / Yes, we are done TAD (4000 / Complement sign, also carry into L SMA SNL / 00 => was 11 JMP RESTOR / No overflow, go restore sum and return SMA CLA / Overflow. Is the sum to be positive? CMA / Yes, get -1 RESTOR, TAD (4000 / Form the correct result JMP I SATADD / ...and return it ARGA, .-. ARGB, .-. Vince's solution is 20 total locations; mine is 24. Excellent work, Vince! All this to fix a ~45 year old bug in Spacewar! where a ship's velocity overflows, causing the ship to "bounce" off of nothing. Kyle From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Mon Mar 25 18:05:07 2019 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (mike) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 18:05:07 -0500 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection In-Reply-To: References: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7C7B7A1EDCCA4B179E3CA1E10A8E0A17@Dumbbunny64> Kyle and Vince, thanks for the education. Not sure I can use this right now, but it is always helpful to see how others attack a problem. Mike Zahorik (414) 254-6768 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Monday, March 25, 2019 12:26 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-8 signed overflow detection Overflow can be summarized in a few ways, such as: (sign of arg_a XOR sign of arg_b == 0) AND (sign of arg XOR sign of result == 1) or, less intuitively, the carry into the sign != the carry out of the sign. My first inclination was to try the XOR approach, as that was most intuitive to me. Using the "traditional" XOR macro on a PDP-8 is rather inefficient, as you don't really care if you're XORing the rest of the bits; only the sign bit. Since the sign bit is the high bit of the AC, ignoring the link bit, simply adding the signs together results in an XOR of the signs. However, you can't simply add the arguments, as you need to ensure there are no carries into the sign bit; hence, ANDing one argument with 04000 prevents any potential carries in. I then realized that, when performing the addition with the link cleared, the parity (i.e. XOR) of the link bit and the three sign bits will also indicate overflow. So, all this to say, here's my implementation: /KYLE'S IMPLEMENTATION SATADD, 0 CLA CLL TAD ARGA TAD ARGB DCA SUM /NORMAL SUM RAR /LINK TO SIGN BIT TAD ARGA /SIGN OF LINK XOR SIGN OF ARGA AND (4000 TAD ARGB /XOR SIGN OF ARGB AND (4000 TAD SUM /XOR SIGN OF SUM SMA CLA /OVERFLOW? JMP NOPROB TAD SUM /YES, GENERATE CORRECT CONSTANT SPA CLA CMA TAD (4000 JMP I SATADD NOPROB, TAD SUM /NO OVERFLOW, RETURN JMP I SATADD ARGA, 0 ARGB, 0 SUM, 0 Vince Slyngstad and I worked on this puzzle at VCF PNW this weekend quite a bit, and I feel very compelled in declaring Vince the winner! Here's his very elegant solution: / / Saturation add / / Add ARGA and ARGB, returning the sum in AC. If integer overflow / occurs, return 3777 or 4000, depending on the sign, / SATADD, .-. TAD ARGA / Get first operand CLL RAL / Remember the sign CLA / ...but not the magnitude TAD ARGB / Get the second operand SPA / Is it negative? CML / Yes, add to sign(ARGA) TAD ARGA / Add the rest of ARGA SMA SNL / Link == sign == 0? JMP I SATADD / Yes, we are done TAD (4000 / Complement sign, also carry into L SMA SNL / 00 => was 11 JMP RESTOR / No overflow, go restore sum and return SMA CLA / Overflow. Is the sum to be positive? CMA / Yes, get -1 RESTOR, TAD (4000 / Form the correct result JMP I SATADD / ...and return it ARGA, .-. ARGB, .-. Vince's solution is 20 total locations; mine is 24. Excellent work, Vince! All this to fix a ~45 year old bug in Spacewar! where a ship's velocity overflows, causing the ship to "bounce" off of nothing. Kyle From chd at chdickman.com Mon Mar 25 20:27:43 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2019 21:27:43 -0400 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection In-Reply-To: References: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 1:26 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > > All this to fix a ~45 year old bug in Spacewar! where a ship's velocity > overflows, causing the ship to "bounce" off of nothing. > > I would have figured it was bouncing off a chunk of dark matter. Cool stuff! PDP-8 programming always seems a bit like puzzle solving. Kyle > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Tue Mar 26 02:02:43 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 01:02:43 -0600 Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection - Apollo guidace computer In-Reply-To: References: <20190321153726.GS24947@Update.UU.SE> <20190321163612.GT24947@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <963ac110-40fe-db17-7613-43252a5f2abc@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/25/2019 7:27 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Mar 25, 2019 at 1:26 AM Kyle Owen via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> All this to fix a ~45 year old bug in Spacewar! where a ship's velocity >> overflows, causing the ship to "bounce" off of nothing. >> >> I would have figured it was bouncing off a chunk of dark matter. > > Cool stuff! PDP-8 programming always seems a bit like puzzle solving. > > Kyle Some times the hardware is more fun than the software. I got looking at a BLOG I had forgotten about. First they planned on Emulating a IBM 1130 Later they found a real IBM 1130 in the middle of now where. Now they seem to have have found a SCRAPPED Apollo guidance computer and am rebuilding the missing pieces. http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/ Ben. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Mar 26 10:53:07 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 08:53:07 -0700 Subject: George Comstock Message-ID: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2019/03/25/george-comstock-silicon-valley-pioneer-and-portola-valley-civic-leader-dies From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 26 11:28:11 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 12:28:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8 signed overflow detection - Apollo guidace computer Message-ID: <20190326162811.E12CA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ben Bfranchuk > Now they seem to have have found a SCRAPPED Apollo guidance > computer and am rebuilding the missing pieces. Wow. What a great site (and that guy has mad skills, everything from repairing old Teletypes, through designing boards, to repairing analog stuff). Just 'wasted' a good chunk of the morning reading back through it; tons of really neat things (including recovery of the very first FORTH, along with a lot of Diablo drive - from the Alto - repairs). As a shortcut, here: http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2018/11/ is the backstory on the AGC; about 1/3 of the way down, in "Restoring an Apollo Guidance Computer, part V". Noel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 26 12:08:07 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:08:07 -0700 Subject: George Comstock In-Reply-To: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4c6ff6d5-866d-0b0c-19b8-ce62b4ba5f25@sydex.com> On 3/26/19 8:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2019/03/25/george-comstock-silicon-valley-pioneer-and-portola-valley-civic-leader-dies Thanks for that--I remember George well. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Mar 26 12:43:38 2019 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 10:43:38 -0700 Subject: AGC restoration / was Re: PDP-8 signed overflow detection - Apollo guidace computer In-Reply-To: <20190326162811.E12CA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190326162811.E12CA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2019-Mar-26, at 9:28 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> From: Ben Bfranchuk > >> Now they seem to have have found a SCRAPPED Apollo guidance >> computer and am rebuilding the missing pieces. > > Wow. What a great site (and that guy has mad skills, everything from > repairing old Teletypes, through designing boards, to repairing analog > stuff). Just 'wasted' a good chunk of the morning reading back through > it; tons of really neat things (including recovery of the very first > FORTH, along with a lot of Diablo drive - from the Alto - repairs). > > As a shortcut, here: > > http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2018/11/ > > is the backstory on the AGC; about 1/3 of the way down, in "Restoring an > Apollo Guidance Computer, part V". This is the same AGC restoration that curious marc has been making videos about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSahAoOLdU The project and videos were mentioned on the list back in December. There's an interview with Jimmie there (4:13) with more details about the backstory. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 26 13:23:08 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 18:23:08 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The saga continues!!! I really don;t remember it being this hard back in the good ole' days but then we had lots of real hardware to work with and systems weren't kludges like what I have in my house. :-) I am currently working with E11 V7.3. My prime interest is in getting a 2.11 system running so I can use tcopy(1) to copy tape images to my one real tape drive. It is SCSI so it is going to be TMSCP on the real system. It is also TMSCP on the E11 system. The problem is I don't seem to be able to do anything on E11 to make 2.11 BSD actually have more than one functional tape. I have tried two TMSCP tapes. I have tried two TMSCP controllers. I have tried one TMSCP tape and various configurations of other tape drives. the result is always the same. I hcae tried building a kernel with all the tapes included. I have tried building kernels with two tapes at a time with different combinations of TMSCP and the others. None of them ever come up with more than one drive. March 26 05:11:44 init: configure system hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No autoconfig routines. ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 skipped: No CSR. tms 1 csr 164334 vector 774 vectorset attached ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. I especially don't understand the "No CSR" for tms Unit 0. If I remove the entry for Unit 1 in the E11.ini file then it recognizes Unit 0. But never both and never any other tape drive. Is there something in 2.11 that I am missing? bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 14:02:39 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 12:02:39 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 11:23 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > The saga continues!!! I really don;t remember it being this > hard back in the good ole' days but then we had lots of real > hardware to work with and systems weren't kludges like what > I have in my house. :-) > > I am currently working with E11 V7.3. My prime interest is > in getting a 2.11 system running so I can use tcopy(1) to > copy tape images to my one real tape drive. It is SCSI so > it is going to be TMSCP on the real system. It is also > TMSCP on the E11 system. > > The problem is I don't seem to be able to do anything on E11 > to make 2.11 BSD actually have more than one functional tape. > > I have tried two TMSCP tapes. I have tried two TMSCP controllers. > I have tried one TMSCP tape and various configurations of other > tape drives. the result is always the same. I hcae tried building > a kernel with all the tapes included. I have tried building kernels > with two tapes at a time with different combinations of TMSCP and > the others. None of them ever come up with more than one drive. > > March 26 05:11:44 init: configure system > > hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached > rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 skipped: No CSR. > tms 1 csr 164334 vector 774 vectorset attached > ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. > > > I especially don't understand the "No CSR" for tms Unit 0. > If I remove the entry for Unit 1 in the E11.ini file then it > recognizes Unit 0. But never both and never any other tape > drive. > > Is there something in 2.11 that I am missing? > > bill Do you need two separate TMSCP controllers, or is that just an experiment you were trying and would two tape drive units on a single TMSCP controller work equally well for your purpose? Anyway, did you modify /etc/dtab at all? I believe the /etc/dtab file in the standard 2.11BSD contains this single entry for a TMSCP controller: tms ? 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver If you want / need two separate controllers I believe you need to add another entry for the second controller. Also, did you go in /etc/dev and ./MAKDEV tu{unit number} for the second tape drive? The 2.11BSD installation guide tells you do this for TMSCP tape drives during installation. I believe that will only create device nodes for a single tape drive. # cd /dev; rm *mt*; ./MAKEDEV tu0; sync Without doing some experimenting myself I forget what the actual syntax would be for creating additional tape drive units on a single or multiple TMSCP controllers. What do you see if you do "ls -l /dev/*mt*" ? >From the tmscp.4 man page the major / minor device numbers have the following meanings: major device number(s): raw: 23 block: 12 minor device encoding: bit: |7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0| ------------------------------- C C X D D N U U C = Controller # (max of 4 controllers) D = Density N = Norewind on close U = Unit (drive) number (max of 4 drives per controller) From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 26 14:35:36 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:35:36 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/26/19 3:02 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 11:23 AM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: >> >> The saga continues!!! I really don;t remember it being this >> hard back in the good ole' days but then we had lots of real >> hardware to work with and systems weren't kludges like what >> I have in my house. :-) >> >> I am currently working with E11 V7.3. My prime interest is >> in getting a 2.11 system running so I can use tcopy(1) to >> copy tape images to my one real tape drive. It is SCSI so >> it is going to be TMSCP on the real system. It is also >> TMSCP on the E11 system. >> >> The problem is I don't seem to be able to do anything on E11 >> to make 2.11 BSD actually have more than one functional tape. >> >> I have tried two TMSCP tapes. I have tried two TMSCP controllers. >> I have tried one TMSCP tape and various configurations of other >> tape drives. the result is always the same. I hcae tried building >> a kernel with all the tapes included. I have tried building kernels >> with two tapes at a time with different combinations of TMSCP and >> the others. None of them ever come up with more than one drive. >> >> March 26 05:11:44 init: configure system >> >> hk ? csr 177440 vector 210 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> ht ? csr 172440 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> ra 0 csr 172150 vector 154 vectorset attached >> rl ? csr 174400 vector 160 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tm ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> tms 0 csr 174500 vector 260 skipped: No CSR. >> tms 1 csr 164334 vector 774 vectorset attached >> ts ? csr 172520 vector 224 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> xp ? csr 176700 vector 254 skipped: No autoconfig routines. >> >> >> I especially don't understand the "No CSR" for tms Unit 0. >> If I remove the entry for Unit 1 in the E11.ini file then it >> recognizes Unit 0. But never both and never any other tape >> drive. >> >> Is there something in 2.11 that I am missing? >> >> bill > > Do you need two separate TMSCP controllers, or is that just an > experiment you were trying and would two tape drive units on a single > TMSCP controller work equally well for your purpose? I'm happy either way. But, from the E11 documentation: "DEC generally didn?t have more than one tape drive per TMSCP controller, but as with MSCP disks, E11 has no such artificial limits. However this means it may be possible to configure a system which is incompatible with the PDP-11 operating system?s TMSCP driver, so it is best to define a separate controller for each drive anyway." > > Anyway, did you modify /etc/dtab at all? I believe the /etc/dtab file > in the standard 2.11BSD contains this single entry for a TMSCP > controller: > > tms ? 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > Mine has two entries: tms 0 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver tms 1 164334 0 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > If you want / need two separate controllers I believe you need to add > another entry for the second controller. > > Also, did you go in /etc/dev and ./MAKDEV tu{unit number} for the > second tape drive? Yes, but it didn't work as I would expect being as the init message says no controller found. > > The 2.11BSD installation guide tells you do this for TMSCP tape drives > during installation. I believe that will only create device nodes for > a single tape drive. > > # cd /dev; rm *mt*; ./MAKEDEV tu0; sync > > Without doing some experimenting myself I forget what the actual > syntax would be for creating additional tape drive units on a single > or multiple TMSCP controllers. I have run it again for the additional devices but they end out being dead. > > What do you see if you do "ls -l /dev/*mt*" ? ls -l shows all the tape devices get created but they are none functional. > > From the tmscp.4 man page the major / minor device numbers have the > following meanings: > > major device number(s): > > raw: 23 > block: 12 > > minor device encoding: > > bit: |7 | 6 | 5 | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0| > ------------------------------- > C C X D D N U U > > C = Controller # (max of 4 controllers) > D = Density > N = Norewind on close > U = Unit (drive) number (max of 4 drives per controller) > Yeah, got all that. The problem seems to be init not finding them during the configure system stage. And even given the possible confusion over multiple TMSCP controllers, it doesn't explain why the second I add a TMSCP drive all the others seem to just go away in the eyes of 2.11. bill From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 18:07:33 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 16:07:33 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 12:35 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, got all that. The problem seems to be init not finding them > during the configure system stage. > > And even given the possible confusion over multiple TMSCP controllers, > it doesn't explain why the second I add a TMSCP drive all the others > seem to just go away in the eyes of 2.11. Are you using the full $$$ version of E11, or the demo version? I was going to experiment with multiple TMSCP controllers using SIMH, only to realize that while it is built to support up to 4 MSCP controllers, it is only built to support a single TMSCP controller. Then I thought I would try E11 as I assumed it must support multiple TMSCP controllers if you were trying it there. Gave it a try just now with the demo version of E11 V7.3 only to realize that the demo version supports only one of each disk/tape controller type. If you are also using the demo version of E11 instead of the full $$$ version then that would be a problem trying to experiment with 2.11BSD support of multiple TMSCP controllers. The only way I could try experimenting with 2.11BSD support for multiple TMSCP controllers is with real hardware (unless I went down the path of trying to figure out how to rebuild SIMH to support multiple TMSCP controllers, has anyone already done that?) From drb at msu.edu Tue Mar 26 18:54:36 2019 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:54:36 -0400 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:35:36 -0000.) References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> > Mine has two entries: > tms 0 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > tms 1 164334 0 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver You set the vector on the second one to zero. Should it be something else? De From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Mar 26 19:10:00 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 00:10:00 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 3/26/19 7:54 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > Mine has two entries: > > > tms 0 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > > tms 1 164334 0 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > > You set the vector on the second one to zero. Should it be > something else? > > De > I didn't set it. It came that way in the 2.11 distro. It apparently picks a free vector when it is activated as demonstrated by the listing provided by init. tms 0 csr 164334 vector 774 vectorset attached bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 26 19:14:43 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 17:14:43 -0700 Subject: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> Argh! I just got a batch of 10.5" open-reel tape in and about one-third of the batch has vinyl "hanger strips" that heave either self-destructed in shipment or are about to do so. Given that the durned things have lapsed into the land of the unobtainium, I wonder if plastic (probably polypropylene) 16mm film cans will work. The 1200' size looks to be about right. Has anyone tried this? --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 19:17:27 2019 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 19:17:27 -0500 Subject: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> Message-ID: > > wonder if anyone on tapeheads.net could help u with ideas? From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 26 19:19:09 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 20:19:09 -0400 Subject: 1/2" tape storage. In-Reply-To: <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <8ea49162-d54a-99d3-7a87-2034453b006a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <686EE77C-CE6D-44CE-A849-505E71B20AD3@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2019, at 8:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Argh! I just got a batch of 10.5" open-reel tape in and about one-third > of the batch has vinyl "hanger strips" that heave either self-destructed > in shipment or are about to do so. > > Given that the durned things have lapsed into the land of the > unobtainium, I wonder if plastic (probably polypropylene) 16mm film cans > will work. The 1200' size looks to be about right. > > Has anyone tried this? Plastic cans were the other standard tape reel packaging, and I think predates the tape seals. Sure that works. Just make sure they are tall enough not to compress the reel sides. Ideally you'd have a hub in the middle of the can to center the reel hub, though it would work without that, just not as nicely. Metal (non-ferrous) cans would work too. Actually, even some ferrous materials would work. I once had a tape shipped to me in a box lined with mu-metal, because the shipping department saw "magnetic tape" on the shipping form so they applied the packaging rules for magnetic materials (i.e., permanent magnets). Nice, I saved it since that stuff is not easily found. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Mar 26 22:31:00 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2019 20:31:00 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 26, 2019 at 5:10 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 3/26/19 7:54 PM, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > > Mine has two entries: > > > > > tms 0 174500 260 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > > > tms 1 164334 0 5 tmsintr # tmscp driver > > > > You set the vector on the second one to zero. Should it be > > something else? > > > > De > > > > I didn't set it. It came that way in the 2.11 distro. > It apparently picks a free vector when it is activated as > demonstrated by the listing provided by init. > > tms 0 csr 164334 vector 774 vectorset attached > > > bill When in doubt, Use the Source. src\sys\autoconfig\do_config.c expect_intr(dp) DTAB *dp; { HAND *hp; register int addr = dp->dt_vector; /* * A vector of 0 has special meaning for devices which support programmable * (settable) vectors. If a xxVec() entry point is present in the driver and * /etc/dtab has a value of 0 for the vector then 'autoconfig' will allocate * one by calling the kernel routine 'nextiv'. From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 02:22:52 2019 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 02:22:52 -0500 Subject: Craigslist: RP05 drive cable in Indiana Message-ID: No affiliation with the seller, just a strange item to come across randomly. Digital BC06S cable, which is mentioned in the manual for the RP05 and possibly others: https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwi/ele/d/multi-pin-digital-cable/6835150645.html The ad shows updated two days ago so they likely still have it. J From pbirkel at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 02:46:22 2019 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 03:46:22 -0400 Subject: Craigslist: RP05 drive cable in Indiana In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <043d01d4e471$2c759dd0$8560d970$@gmail.com> "Audio consoles" hah! That's a DEC MASSBUS cable. Heavy ... -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason T via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 3:23 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Craigslist: RP05 drive cable in Indiana No affiliation with the seller, just a strange item to come across randomly. Digital BC06S cable, which is mentioned in the manual for the RP05 and possibly others: https://chicago.craigslist.org/nwi/ele/d/multi-pin-digital-cable/6835150645.html The ad shows updated two days ago so they likely still have it. J From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 04:58:09 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 10:58:09 +0100 Subject: George Comstock In-Reply-To: <4c6ff6d5-866d-0b0c-19b8-ce62b4ba5f25@sydex.com> References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <4c6ff6d5-866d-0b0c-19b8-ce62b4ba5f25@sydex.com> Message-ID: Den tis 26 mars 2019 kl 18:08 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > On 3/26/19 8:53 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.almanacnews.com/news/2019/03/25/george-comstock-silicon-valley-pioneer-and-portola-valley-civic-leader-dies > > Thanks for that--I remember George well. > While restoring a Diablo HyType II printer back to operation I spent some time researching about Diablo and came across this interview with George Comstock. https://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/access/text/2015/07/102658008-05-01-acc.pdf Very interesting reading. During this work I also understood that the wiki page on Daisy Wheel printing was wrong since they attributed the invention of the Daisy Wheel printing technology to the Qume founder, David Lee. From reading the interview with George Comstock it is evident that the true inventor is Hungarian born Dr Andrew Gabor. A week ago I finally updated the wiki page to reflect this. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daisy_wheel_printing If someone else has more information and details it could be worthwhile to update the page yet more. Here is btw my HyType II printing som ASCII art. https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=C5bodpSsFl8 Nice printer. The servo system designed by Andrew Gabor works very well. The speed of the carriage when it moves back to the home position makes you keep fingers on your back not touching anything... > > --Chuck > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 27 07:17:49 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 08:17:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: CDC 6600 modules Message-ID: <20190327121749.5DB7518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, if anyone wants a CDC 6600 module for their mantle/shelf/etc, here: https://www.ebay.com/itm/283426116822 is someone selling some for a non-ridiculous amount of money (the latter being common with this type of thing). No connection with the seller, other than buying one myself. Noel From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 27 08:12:17 2019 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 14:12:17 +0100 (MET) Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: <9C23B1D35F874D0D92E2F8EC7B841908@310e2> References: <811A77380BAD4F0BA3FEA9AD8B9176BC@310e2> <9C23B1D35F874D0D92E2F8EC7B841908@310e2> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Mar 2019, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Glen Slick via cctalk" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 1:28 PM > Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? > > >> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 9:59 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >>> >>> At the expense of being boo-ed for this, could the original Rockwell >>> stuff perhaps have been assembled using a mainframe/mini-hosted >>> cross-assembler? >>> >>> I'm aware of several situations where this was the case. >> > > ---------------------- > I expect it was their Macro Assembler running on one of the systems shown at the bottom of the page here: > http://oldcomputers.net/AIM-65-40.html > When I started working here at the university in 1982 they used MMI- PALs in hardware developement. PALs were programmed with "PALASM 20" or "PALASM 24" written in FORTRAN IV on the Telefunken TR-440. It had been just retired when I started. After this "PALASM" was ported to the successor of this machine, a VAX-780. They had also developed an universal crossassembler "UCAMS" (Universal Cross Assembler for Microprocessors Stuttgart). It started on the TR-440, was then ported to the VAX, and in 2011 I succeeded to port it to my PDP8 under OS/8. Many many overlays. :-) In the "data catalog 1976" Intel advertises many software products written in FORTRAN IV: PL/M compilers for 8080 and 8008. Crossassembler for 4004 and 4040 MAC8 and MAC40 macroassembler for 8008 and 4040 INTERP/40 simulator for 4004 and 4040 INTERP/8 and INTERP/80 simulator for 8008 and 8080 MCS-80 crossassembler for 8080 CROMIS cross microprogramming system for i3000 bit slices In the Motorola "microcomputer development systems and subsystems" from 1979 Motorola advertises M68EML, a m6800 emulator, M68MPLC a crosscompiler for MPL ("based an PL/I"), M68SAM, a crosscompiler. All written in FORTRAN and distributed on cards or magnetic tapes, in different variants for: Sigma 9, HP 2100, IBM360/370, Nova, Honeywell 6000, CDC 6000 and PDP-11. Klemens From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 08:15:21 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 13:15:21 +0000 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Glen Sorry for not replying right away. I've been on the road. No, I've not gotten the manual. I do have a disk controller board with my system. I'd have to look back to see what disk controller code was in the ROMs. I suspect it might just be to read the first bock of data and then expect the rest of the code to be from the disk for disk I/O. Next chance I get, I'll look to see what is there. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 10:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of original Rockwell source out there? > I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match. The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was preserved. Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you ever find a copy or scan of that manual? Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card 0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end. I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM. It might be something specific to the system where this card was being used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 27 08:48:13 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 09:48:13 -0400 Subject: eBay: CDC 6600 modules In-Reply-To: <20190327121749.5DB7518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190327121749.5DB7518C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Mar 27, 2019, at 8:17 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > So, if anyone wants a CDC 6600 module for their mantle/shelf/etc, here: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/283426116822 > > is someone selling some for a non-ridiculous amount of money (the latter being > common with this type of thing). Nice. I wonder what a YT module is. It isn't a 6600 CPU module. paul From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Mar 27 11:27:19 2019 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 17:27:19 +0100 Subject: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> Message-ID: <38a895ac-b3aa-6410-cdbd-5de8bcecf255@greenmail.ch> On 10.11.18 13:03, Riesen Thomas via cctalk wrote: > Hi all > > Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive > Mitsubishi M2894-63B? > > If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very > happy. > > Regards > Thomas > Thomas's floppydrive is currently on my bench : as we were unable to find the rights parts I proceeded to 3D print them. A sleeve for the existing 60 Hz pulley was made from PLA, a replacement belt was printed using "Ninjaflex". The resulting combination is already running for several hours, the belt is as flexible as the original and shows no signs of wear yet. ( This particular drive has the distinction of using a true rubber belt, not the reinforced textile band you normally see ) This ninjaflex material could potentially be very useful in producing capstans.... Experiments will follow as soon as time permits ! Jos From rlloken at telus.net Wed Mar 27 11:44:13 2019 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 10:44:13 -0600 (MDT) Subject: George Comstock In-Reply-To: References: <020fcf33-c239-27a1-f437-25fdcb53db4c@bitsavers.org> <4c6ff6d5-866d-0b0c-19b8-ce62b4ba5f25@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've seen that cat before but we printed them on a line printer since the company did not like us using the high quality Diablo for such nonsense. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 11:51:10 2019 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 10:51:10 -0600 Subject: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <38a895ac-b3aa-6410-cdbd-5de8bcecf255@greenmail.ch> References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <38a895ac-b3aa-6410-cdbd-5de8bcecf255@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: Hi Jos, Thanks very much for posting about the NinjaFlex material. That will come in very handy as my students design robotic parts, although I'm sure it won't be long before custom-made "rubber" bands will be flying around the lab, and new-fangled slingshots ("wrist rockets") won't be far behind those ... heavy sigh. "You'll shoot yer eye out, kid!" I loved listening to Jean Shepherd on the radio as a kid, spinning yarns from his own childhood, including his obsession with acquiring a Red Ryder BB gun from the Big Ol' Fat Guy in the Red Suit. He eventually consolidated many of his best tales into the movie script for, and narrated, "A Christmas Story", which is now mandatory holiday watching in our house. All the Best, Jim On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 10:27 AM jos via cctalk wrote: > On 10.11.18 13:03, Riesen Thomas via cctalk wrote: > > Hi all > > > > Any suggestions where to find two 50Hz-Pulleys for the 8" Floppy drive > > Mitsubishi M2894-63B? > > > > If there also the appropriate ribbon gummies available, I would be very > > happy. > > > > Regards > > Thomas > > > > > Thomas's floppydrive is currently on my bench : as we were unable to find > the rights parts I proceeded to 3D print them. > A sleeve for the existing 60 Hz pulley was made from PLA, a replacement > belt was printed using "Ninjaflex". > > The resulting combination is already running for several hours, the belt > is as flexible as the original and shows no signs of wear yet. > > ( This particular drive has the distinction of using a true rubber belt, > not the reinforced textile band you normally see ) > > This ninjaflex material could potentially be very useful in producing > capstans.... > Experiments will follow as soon as time permits ! > > Jos > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 14:04:20 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:04:20 +0000 Subject: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? In-Reply-To: References: , , Message-ID: The next question is, does anyone have a disk with directory structure and utilities? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 6:15 AM To: Glen Slick; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? Hi Glen Sorry for not replying right away. I've been on the road. No, I've not gotten the manual. I do have a disk controller board with my system. I'd have to look back to see what disk controller code was in the ROMs. I suspect it might just be to read the first bock of data and then expect the rest of the code to be from the disk for disk I/O. Next chance I get, I'll look to see what is there. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Glen Slick via cctalk Sent: Thursday, March 21, 2019 10:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What 6502 macro assembler was used for the AIM-65 Monitor ROM? On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 3:23 PM Mike Stein wrote: > > I can't help but I'm curious: why are you looking for this? Is there a lot of original Rockwell source out there? > I have some Rockwell RM-65 cards which have on-board firmware. In particular a RM65-5101E FDC Controller and a RM65-5102E CRT Controller. It would be nice to have verified accurate machine readable source code for the firmware on these cards. One way to get that would be to manually type in verbatim the firmware source code from the assembly listings in the manuals, then assemble the source code, and then compare the resulting binary against the contents of the EPROMs on the cards to verify a binary match. The source code could always be reformatted to match the input syntax of a different assembler, but from a historical documentation perspective it would be nice if the original source code format was preserved. Dwight, I saw some posts from you from maybe last year where you were looking for a manual for the RM65-1000 / RM65-1000E CPU board. Did you ever find a copy or scan of that manual? Does anyone have an AIM-65 DOS EPROM for the RM65-5101 / RM65-5101E FDC Controller? From a quick look at a hex dump of the firmware EPROM I have on my RM65-5101E FDC Controller it appears to match the low level primitives assembly listing in the 29801 N02 manual for the card 0x886C - 0x8EFF, except the copyright string is missing at the end. I'm not sure about the rest of the code in the FDC Controller EPROM. It might be something specific to the system where this card was being used, and not the standard AIM-65 DOS code. It would be nice to have a copy of the standard AIM-65 DOS EPROM to try using the RM65-5101E FDC Controller with an AIM-65. I have an extender board and cable to connect an AIM-65 to a RM65 Eurocard card cage. From chd at chdickman.com Wed Mar 27 14:58:50 2019 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:58:50 -0400 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a > crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor. Shouldn't be too > difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W. > If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive > inverter to do the job. > > Never saw a floppy drive with an AC motor. In the past discussions about 50Hz vs 60Hz drive, I expected it to be a 120/240 VAC motor. So is it actually a low voltage (synchronous) AC motor? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 15:36:16 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 20:36:16 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> , Message-ID: Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives. The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that had a voltage option. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Charles Dickman via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 12:58 PM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B On Sat, Nov 10, 2018 at 3:27 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > One could also take Tony's approach and simply cobble up a > crystal-controlled 60Hz source for the motor. Shouldn't be too > difficult--I suspect that the motor doesn't draw more than about 30W. > If you had an excess of 12VDC, you could possibly use an inexpensive > inverter to do the job. > > Never saw a floppy drive with an AC motor. In the past discussions about 50Hz vs 60Hz drive, I expected it to be a 120/240 VAC motor. So is it actually a low voltage (synchronous) AC motor? From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 27 16:07:25 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 14:07:25 -0700 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> Message-ID: <84e87c61-5876-b5c3-d121-e82aab919bba@sydex.com> On 3/27/19 1:36 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives. > The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that had a voltage option. > Dwight I picked up a new Qume 842 for 220V 50 Hz and simply substituted a flanged timing pulley for the crowned one, adjusted for the frequency variation. I powered it from the power supply transformer primaries hooked as an autotransformer to give 240VAC. Worked just fine. --Chuck From rickb at bensene.com Wed Mar 27 16:56:51 2019 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 14:56:51 -0700 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Hi, everyone, Myself and my friend Mike, representing the Old Calculator Museum, exhibited the line of Wang Laboratories electronic calculators at the Vintage Computer Federation's Vintage Computer Festival/Pacific Northwest edition, at the Living Computer Museum+Labs in Seattle, Washington this past weekend. This was the 2nd annual VCF/PNW, and it was clearly a success, as it was significantly larger than the first event last year (which I went to, but didn't exhibit at). There were 30 exhibits, all of which were really interesting, and a good-sized consignment area, as well as quite a group of guest speakers who had interesting topics to present. Of course, being held in the Living Computer Museum+Labs was a bonus, as the museum is an amazing place, with lots of vintage computers up and running and accessible for people to actually use and experience. The Old Calculator Museum exhibit consisted of a Wang LOCI-2 and punched card readers (1st and 2nd-generation card readers), a Wang 360E w/320K keyboard/display unit;362E with 370 Programmer and 371 Punched Card Reader; 360SE 4-terminal timeshared calculator package with two 360KT trig keyboards, 360K, and 320K keyboards, all running simultaneously off the 360SE electronics unit; a Wang 720C; Wang 600-14TP; Wang 500-14TP; Wang 462 and 452 Programmable calculators; and a Wang C-52. These are representatives of all of the lines of calculators that Wang Laboratories made during its years in the electronic calculator market (1965-1974). All of the machines were running and available for visitors to play with, with the exception of the LOCI-2 (which has a thermal issue that manifests after about 3 minutes of operation) and the 500-14TP, which has some kind of problem that renders it catatonic that I've not yet had a chance to try to diagnose/repair). Also shown was an original Wang Labs factory spare parts kit for the 300-series calculators & peripherals, another Wang 360SE electronics package opened up so people could see the insides, a number of circuit boards from Wang 300-series keyboard/display units, as well as core memory boards from 300-series electronics packages, core memory and circuit boards from Wang 700-series calculators, and original sales documentation for Wang's 700, 500, and 600-series calculators. The exhibit turned out pretty well, though I didn't have time to make up signs to identify the stuff until we actually got there and made hand-written signs, which turned out to be good enough -- it seems that people could actually read my chicken-scratch handwriting. The signs included the retail price at the time the machine was introduced, and people were stunned that in 1971, a Wang 720C outfitted as the exhibited machine retailed for $7,000. A lot of people asked how much that would be in today's dollars, and I was able to use my phone to find out...about $50,000. The exhibit was almost constantly busy both days for the whole time the museum was open, (10 AM - 5 PM), and the folks were all very careful with the old machines, and had really great questions about them. I was pretty surprised at how much interest there was in these old beasts. The crowd was pretty mixed in age, from folks who actually used examples of the machines in school, to youngsters who were totally shocked that this is what calculators were like 50 years ago. The machines ran the whole time the exhibit was open, and amazingly, despite the old Germanium-based transistors in the Wang 300-series calculators, as well as fussy magnetic rope ROMs and core memory in the 700 and 600-series machines, they ran trouble-free. A lot of folks had trouble getting the machines to give answers they expected because of Wang's unusual math entry method. Once they were given a simple explanation of the way the machines worked, they caught on quickly, and got answers they expected. It was a lot of fun to explain and demonstrate the machines to the visitors. The Wang 370 Programmer hooked up to the 362E electronics package was popular. I had a little program punched up on a card that would perform an iterative approximation of Pi. It'd run for 100 iterations, then stop and display the approximation it had come to thus far. People were fascinated by the "spinning" Nixie Tubes as the machine churned away on the iterations. People also liked the 360KT keyboards hooked up the 360SE simultaneous timeshared calculator electronics package. They enjoyed it when I demonstrated the two 360KT keyboard/display units running the Sine of 45 degrees at the same time. The timesharing between the two terminals was obvious as the calculator switched back and forth between each of the keyboards as the calculation, which takes about 25 seconds, was being performed. Nixie tubes were a big attraction. Many younger folks had never seen them in person before, but almost everyone knew about them. I think that the popularization of Nixie tubes in the form of clocks using Nixie tubes for display has brought Nixies to the attention of folks that didn't experience them in the day, but have seen stuff online about Nixie tubes. I did get a little time to wander around the event and look at the other exhibits (there were 30 this year!), and the stuff the folks had was amazing. I was really impressed by Josh Dersch's exhibit of PERC workstations...it was truly amazing to see these rare machines running! I really liked Vince Slyngstad's PDP 8/e with a custom Omnibus board that replicates the vintage (and rare) X/Y analog output board using a CPLD and a couple of DACs such that the PDP 8/e was running actual SPACEWAR code and displaying on a Tektronix display tube. There were a lot of other really great exhibits, including a very complete Atari 800 systems running office productivity tools that made what was considered a gaming computer into a true office machine that was ahead of its time. There was a great exhibit of some classic Silicon Graphics machines running, an exhibit of just about every type of floppy disc and optical media ever produced (some of which are very rare), and a couple of exhibits related to accurately emulating classic computers using contemporary microprocessors to either run vintage "lights & switches" front panels, or even miniaturized front panels built to look and run like the original computers. All of the exhibits were well presented and truly interesting. Just before the event closed, I took a few minutes so I could go upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10(which I'd have to say is my favorite vintage computer), when my friend and exhibit helper Mike came through the doors of the computer room, pointed at me, and motioned for me to come with him. I had been talking to two very nice young gentlemen who had a lot of questions about the KA-10, and had to beg their forgiveness as I had to leave. I followed Mike down the stairs, and a big crowd of people was there. I didn't realize it, but the awards ceremony was going on while I was upstairs. Mike guided me to Mike Brutman, the event organizer, and he presented me with "The Most Interesting Presentation" award! I was completely stunned. I never would have thought that a couple of tables of old calculators with hand-written signs would merit such an award, but I was very honored and humbled to receive it. The event was very well-organized. The Living Computer Museum+Labs staff and volunteers did an amazing job getting the museum set up for the exhibits, with tables, tablecloths, and chairs all in place and ready to go when we arrived Friday. Mike Brutman was fantastic! He was so nice, accommodating, and supportive of my exhibit (which, by definition, was somewhat outside the "Vintage Computer" realm), as well as doing a completely amazing job of organizing such a complicated event. Everything went off smoothly, from the set up Friday night, through the two days of the event, awards Sunday after the doors closed to the public, and tear-down and haul out. Our exhibit was the last one out the door, as it's rather tedious packing these old machines up, making sure that they are cozily packed within the crates with a lot of padding in between them. It took my about 2 days to get everything packed to head up there, and we had a little over two hours to repack it all after the event closed...we were running like banshees to get everything packed safely and loaded into the van. The trip home went smoothly with no problems. I was totally exhausted Monday afternoon when we got home. Mike and I unloaded all the crates and stuff from the van into the museum building, and Mike headed home. I went to the house, sat down on the sofa and turned on the TV, and was dead to the world when my wife got home from work a few hours later. I don't remember anything from the time I sat down until she got home. I haven't unpacked anything yet...I needed a day yesterday to get a bunch of errands done, and reply to a backlog of Emails that stacked up while I was away and didn't have time to tend to them. Later this afternoon, I'll get everything unpacked and back on the display shelves, and test 'em out. Hopefully everything will work fine after the trip home. I want to take this opportunity to thank my long-time and cherished friend, Mike Weiler, for taking three days off work to come help with the exhibit. He was a real trooper, helping people understand how to use the machines, manning the exhibit when I wanted to wander around and look at the other exhibits and the new machines at the Living Computer Museum+Labs (including the awesome KA-10 PDP-10 running in the machine room upstairs...what a treat!), as well as fielding questions when I'd get engaged with a visitor discussing these old calculators. Not to mention all of his help packing the stuff up before we left, hauling all the stuff into the museum when we arrived Friday afternoon, helping get the exhibit set up and organized, tearing everything down and packing it up after the event closed and hauling it out to the van and getting it all packed in for the trip home, and helping to unload it all once we arrived home. Along with all of that, Mike was a godsend in terms of helping me keep my cool when I'd get stressed out about stuff. There's not a ghost of a chance I could have done all of this myself. I'd also like to thank Mike Brutman for all of the effort and determination it takes to successfully pull of an event like this. It was all stunningly well-done! My thanks also go out to the other exhibitors at the event, many of which who came over to visit the Old Calculator Museum exhibit and compliment us about having these old machines running and available for visitors to touch and operate. Last, but certainly not least, thanks to the Living Computer Museum+Labs staff and volunteers for all of the work and support that they provided for this event. The venue amazing, and makes a perfect place for a vintage computer festival. With the success of this year's event, only its second time in the Pacific Northwest, it is sure to grow even more next year. I am looking forward to next year's VCF/PNW, where I plan on doing a similar exhibit of old electronic calculators from the Friden Calculating Machine Co., with an example of every line of calculator that Friden/Singer made available for visitors to play with. I just hope my friend Mike will be up to doing again it next year. Just before we left, Erik Klein, the organizer of VCF/West, held in Mountain View, CA at the Computer History Museum during the first week in August, came to me and invited me to bring the Wang exhibit down to the event his summer. I was surprised that there'd be interest, but he was emphatic that it'd be wonderful to have the exhibit there. I was honored by this request, and told Erik I'd do all I could to try to make it to this event. Perhaps if I make it, I'll actually have printed signs to identify the stuff rather than hand-written signs that I made "on the fly" as we were setting things up, because I ran out of time to make decent signs. :-) It's a long trip down there from the Portland, Oregon vicinity, but I'm going to do all I can to make it if at all possible. The experience was amazing. I've never done anything like this before. I discovered that there's really something special about seeing people amazed by how much things have changed since the 1960's. The calculators really make it so clear just how amazing it is to have an HP calculator emulation running on a smartphone...and that the smartphone has far more compute power, storage, and capability than all of the Wang calculators on display together, with the emulated HP calculator running far faster than the original calculator it emulates. It's really crazy just how far we've come in 50 years...and I just can't even begin to envision what we'll have 50 years from now. I wonder if the tech we use today will be on display at vintage computer events in 2069? A funny note. The whole time I was there on Saturday and Sunday, I was wearing on my wrist a classic HP-01 wristwatch/calculator. A total of five people noticed it and commented, and of the five, three knew what it was, and two were just curious about it because it caught their eye, but they didn't know what it was. The two that were curious were completely blown away when I demonstrated it to them. I would have expected that more folks would have noticed this big gold hunk on my wrist. So, that's my "trip report". To all the ClassicCmp'ers that came to the event, thanks for coming. See you maybe down at VCF/West, and, fates willing, next year at VCF/PNW. Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 27 17:04:02 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 15:04:02 -0700 Subject: Computervision CADDS distribution carts are weird Message-ID: <081f5b6d-108c-8bd4-53f1-71dc0738409c@bitsavers.org> I ran into an interesting problem. Eric Smith's copytape program assumes two tape marks in a row is logical end of tape and stops reading. I've had problems with this before with MPE store tapes, because they put two file marks at the start of tape so I just keep reading until I get 10 errors in a row. That also lets me read anything after a logical EOT on 1/2" tape. Well.. CV is even weirder. One some CV software distribution carts EVERY file has two file marks between them. I don't expect anyone to have to archive any of these, but I wanted to get this written down somewhere. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 27 18:06:05 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 23:06:05 +0000 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: <84e87c61-5876-b5c3-d121-e82aab919bba@sydex.com> References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> , <84e87c61-5876-b5c3-d121-e82aab919bba@sydex.com> Message-ID: A friend an I did almost the same thing. We used the transformer primary from another box as an auto transformer and used a file to grind the motor pulley down. We did have to file the mounting slots some as well. It worked fine. This was about 25 years ago. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, March 27, 2019 2:07 PM To: dwight via cctalk Subject: Re: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B On 3/27/19 1:36 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Most all 8 inch drives were synchronous capacitive phased AC motors. That is until 3 phase low voltage motors started showing up on 5.25 disk drives. > The ac motors on the 8 inch drives rarely had jumper options for 120/240V AC. Most were fixed voltage and cycles. I can't recall any that I've seen that had a voltage option. > Dwight I picked up a new Qume 842 for 220V 50 Hz and simply substituted a flanged timing pulley for the crowned one, adjusted for the frequency variation. I powered it from the power supply transformer primaries hooked as an autotransformer to give 240VAC. Worked just fine. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 27 18:26:34 2019 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 16:26:34 -0700 Subject: AW: 50Hz Pulley for 8" Floppy Drive Mitshubishi M2894-63B In-Reply-To: References: <04bb675076d94529b874939e1201945b@predata.ch> <3.0.6.32.20181110232515.00e43698@mail.optusnet.com.au> <3.0.6.32.20181111011929.0114d160@mail.optusnet.com.au> <84e87c61-5876-b5c3-d121-e82aab919bba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 3/27/19 4:06 PM, dwight wrote: > A friend an I did almost the same thing. We used the transformer primary > from another box as an auto transformer and used a file to grind the > motor pulley down. We did have to file the mounting slots some as well. > It worked fine. > This was about 25 years ago. > Dwight Well, I bought two pulleys, so if anyone has an 842 220V 50Hz unit they want to try this on, I'm happy to part with one. --Chuck From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Wed Mar 27 19:18:54 2019 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 19:18:54 -0500 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Rick, Thanks for your report on the show! I used a Wang 360E in college - since it was a scientific calculator and great for engineering homework! Monty McGraw Tektronix 4052 and 4054A vintage computers On Wed, Mar 27, 2019 at 4:57 PM Rick Bensene via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, everyone, > > Myself and my friend Mike, representing the Old Calculator Museum, > exhibited the line of Wang Laboratories electronic calculators at the > Vintage Computer Federation's Vintage Computer Festival/Pacific > Northwest edition, at the Living Computer Museum+Labs in Seattle, > Washington this past weekend. > > This was the 2nd annual VCF/PNW, and it was clearly a success, as it was > significantly larger than the first event last year (which I went to, > but didn't exhibit at). There were 30 exhibits, all of which were > really interesting, and a good-sized consignment area, as well as quite > a group of guest speakers who had interesting topics to present. Of > course, being held in the Living Computer Museum+Labs was a bonus, as > the museum is an amazing place, with lots of vintage computers up and > running and accessible for people to actually use and experience. > > The Old Calculator Museum exhibit consisted of a Wang LOCI-2 and punched > card readers (1st and 2nd-generation card readers), a Wang 360E w/320K > keyboard/display unit;362E with 370 Programmer and 371 Punched Card > Reader; 360SE 4-terminal timeshared calculator package with two 360KT > trig keyboards, 360K, and 320K keyboards, all running simultaneously > off the 360SE electronics unit; a Wang 720C; Wang 600-14TP; Wang > 500-14TP; Wang 462 and 452 Programmable calculators; and a Wang C-52. > These are representatives of all of the lines of calculators that Wang > Laboratories made during its years in the electronic calculator market > (1965-1974). All of the machines were running and available for > visitors to play with, with the exception of the LOCI-2 (which has a > thermal issue that manifests after about 3 minutes of operation) and the > 500-14TP, which has some kind of problem that renders it catatonic that > I've not yet had a chance to try to diagnose/repair). Also shown was > an original Wang Labs factory spare parts kit for the 300-series > calculators & peripherals, another Wang 360SE electronics package opened > up so people could see the insides, a number of circuit boards from Wang > 300-series keyboard/display units, as well as core memory boards from > 300-series electronics packages, core memory and circuit boards from > Wang 700-series calculators, and original sales documentation for Wang's > 700, 500, and 600-series calculators. > > The exhibit turned out pretty well, though I didn't have time to make up > signs to identify the stuff until we actually got there and made > hand-written signs, which turned out to be good enough -- it seems that > people could actually read my chicken-scratch handwriting. The signs > included the retail price at the time the machine was introduced, and > people were stunned that in 1971, a Wang 720C outfitted as the exhibited > machine retailed for $7,000. A lot of people asked how much that would > be in today's dollars, and I was able to use my phone to find > out...about $50,000. > > The exhibit was almost constantly busy both days for the whole time the > museum was open, (10 AM - 5 PM), and the folks were all very careful > with the old machines, and had really great questions about them. I > was pretty surprised at how much interest there was in these old beasts. > The crowd was pretty mixed in age, from folks who actually used examples > of the machines in school, to youngsters who were totally shocked that > this is what calculators were like 50 years ago. The machines ran the > whole time the exhibit was open, and amazingly, despite the old > Germanium-based transistors in the Wang 300-series calculators, as well > as fussy magnetic rope ROMs and core memory in the 700 and 600-series > machines, they ran trouble-free. A lot of folks had trouble getting the > machines to give answers they expected because of Wang's unusual math > entry method. Once they were given a simple explanation of the way the > machines worked, they caught on quickly, and got answers they expected. > It was a lot of fun to explain and demonstrate the machines to the > visitors. The Wang 370 Programmer hooked up to the 362E electronics > package was popular. I had a little program punched up on a card that > would perform an iterative approximation of Pi. It'd run for 100 > iterations, then stop and display the approximation it had come to thus > far. People were fascinated by the "spinning" Nixie Tubes as the > machine churned away on the iterations. People also liked the 360KT > keyboards hooked up the 360SE simultaneous timeshared calculator > electronics package. They enjoyed it when I demonstrated the two 360KT > keyboard/display units running the Sine of 45 degrees at the same time. > The timesharing between the two terminals was obvious as the calculator > switched back and forth between each of the keyboards as the > calculation, which takes about 25 seconds, was being performed. > > Nixie tubes were a big attraction. Many younger folks had never seen > them in person before, but almost everyone knew about them. I think > that the popularization of Nixie tubes in the form of clocks using Nixie > tubes for display has brought Nixies to the attention of folks that > didn't experience them in the day, but have seen stuff online about > Nixie tubes. > > I did get a little time to wander around the event and look at the other > exhibits (there were 30 this year!), and the stuff the folks had was > amazing. I was really impressed by Josh Dersch's exhibit of PERC > workstations...it was truly amazing to see these rare machines running! > I really liked Vince Slyngstad's PDP 8/e with a custom Omnibus board > that replicates the vintage (and rare) X/Y analog output board using a > CPLD and a couple of DACs such that the PDP 8/e was running actual > SPACEWAR code and displaying on a Tektronix display tube. There were > a lot of other really great exhibits, including a very complete Atari > 800 systems running office productivity tools that made what was > considered a gaming computer into a true office machine that was ahead > of its time. There was a great exhibit of some classic Silicon Graphics > machines running, an exhibit of just about every type of floppy disc and > optical media ever produced (some of which are very rare), and a couple > of exhibits related to accurately emulating classic computers using > contemporary microprocessors to either run vintage "lights & switches" > front panels, or even miniaturized front panels built to look and run > like the original computers. All of the exhibits were well presented > and truly interesting. > > Just before the event closed, I took a few minutes so I could go > upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10(which > I'd have to say is my favorite vintage computer), when my friend and > exhibit helper Mike came through the doors of the computer room, pointed > at me, and motioned for me to come with him. I had been talking to two > very nice young gentlemen who had a lot of questions about the KA-10, > and had to beg their forgiveness as I had to leave. I followed Mike > down the stairs, and a big crowd of people was there. I didn't realize > it, but the awards ceremony was going on while I was upstairs. Mike > guided me to Mike Brutman, the event organizer, and he presented me with > "The Most Interesting Presentation" award! I was completely stunned. > I never would have thought that a couple of tables of old calculators > with hand-written signs would merit such an award, but I was very > honored and humbled to receive it. > > The event was very well-organized. The Living Computer Museum+Labs > staff and volunteers did an amazing job getting the museum set up for > the exhibits, with tables, tablecloths, and chairs all in place and > ready to go when we arrived Friday. Mike Brutman was fantastic! He was > so nice, accommodating, and supportive of my exhibit (which, by > definition, was somewhat outside the "Vintage Computer" realm), as well > as doing a completely amazing job of organizing such a complicated > event. Everything went off smoothly, from the set up Friday night, > through the two days of the event, awards Sunday after the doors closed > to the public, and tear-down and haul out. Our exhibit was the last > one out the door, as it's rather tedious packing these old machines up, > making sure that they are cozily packed within the crates with a lot of > padding in between them. It took my about 2 days to get everything > packed to head up there, and we had a little over two hours to repack it > all after the event closed...we were running like banshees to get > everything packed safely and loaded into the van. > > The trip home went smoothly with no problems. I was totally exhausted > Monday afternoon when we got home. Mike and I unloaded all the crates > and stuff from the van into the museum building, and Mike headed home. > I went to the house, sat down on the sofa and turned on the TV, and was > dead to the world when my wife got home from work a few hours later. I > don't remember anything from the time I sat down until she got home. > > I haven't unpacked anything yet...I needed a day yesterday to get a > bunch of errands done, and reply to a backlog of Emails that stacked up > while I was away and didn't have time to tend to them. Later this > afternoon, I'll get everything unpacked and back on the display shelves, > and test 'em out. Hopefully everything will work fine after the trip > home. > > I want to take this opportunity to thank my long-time and cherished > friend, Mike Weiler, for taking three days off work to come help with > the exhibit. He was a real trooper, helping people understand how to > use the machines, manning the exhibit when I wanted to wander around and > look at the other exhibits and the new machines at the Living Computer > Museum+Labs (including the awesome KA-10 PDP-10 running in the machine > room upstairs...what a treat!), as well as fielding questions when I'd > get engaged with a visitor discussing these old calculators. Not to > mention all of his help packing the stuff up before we left, hauling all > the stuff into the museum when we arrived Friday afternoon, helping get > the exhibit set up and organized, tearing everything down and packing it > up after the event closed and hauling it out to the van and getting it > all packed in for the trip home, and helping to unload it all once we > arrived home. Along with all of that, Mike was a godsend in terms of > helping me keep my cool when I'd get stressed out about stuff. There's > not a ghost of a chance I could have done all of this myself. > > I'd also like to thank Mike Brutman for all of the effort and > determination it takes to successfully pull of an event like this. > It was all stunningly well-done! > > My thanks also go out to the other exhibitors at the event, many of > which who came over to visit the Old Calculator Museum exhibit and > compliment us about having these old machines running and available for > visitors to touch and operate. > > Last, but certainly not least, thanks to the Living Computer Museum+Labs > staff and volunteers for all of the work and support that they provided > for this event. The venue amazing, and makes a perfect place for a > vintage computer festival. > > With the success of this year's event, only its second time in the > Pacific Northwest, it is sure to grow even more next year. I am > looking forward to next year's VCF/PNW, where I plan on doing a similar > exhibit of old electronic calculators from the Friden Calculating > Machine Co., with an example of every line of calculator that > Friden/Singer made available for visitors to play with. I just hope my > friend Mike will be up to doing again it next year. > > Just before we left, Erik Klein, the organizer of VCF/West, held in > Mountain View, CA at the Computer History Museum during the first week > in August, came to me and invited me to bring the Wang exhibit down to > the event his summer. I was surprised that there'd be interest, but he > was emphatic that it'd be wonderful to have the exhibit there. I was > honored by this request, and told Erik I'd do all I could to try to make > it to this event. Perhaps if I make it, I'll actually have printed > signs to identify the stuff rather than hand-written signs that I made > "on the fly" as we were setting things up, because I ran out of time to > make decent signs. :-) It's a long trip down there from the Portland, > Oregon vicinity, but I'm going to do all I can to make it if at all > possible. > > The experience was amazing. I've never done anything like this before. > I discovered that there's really something special about seeing people > amazed by how much things have changed since the 1960's. The > calculators really make it so clear just how amazing it is to have an HP > calculator emulation running on a smartphone...and that the smartphone > has far more compute power, storage, and capability than all of the Wang > calculators on display together, with the emulated HP calculator running > far faster than the original calculator it emulates. It's really crazy > just how far we've come in 50 years...and I just can't even begin to > envision what we'll have 50 years from now. I wonder if the tech we > use today will be on display at vintage computer events in 2069? > > A funny note. The whole time I was there on Saturday and Sunday, I was > wearing on my wrist a classic HP-01 wristwatch/calculator. A total of > five people noticed it and commented, and of the five, three knew what > it was, and two were just curious about it because it caught their eye, > but they didn't know what it was. The two that were curious were > completely blown away when I demonstrated it to them. I would have > expected that more folks would have noticed this big gold hunk on my > wrist. > > So, that's my "trip report". To all the ClassicCmp'ers that came to the > event, thanks for coming. See you maybe down at VCF/West, and, fates > willing, next year at VCF/PNW. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > > > > > > From earl at baugh.org Wed Mar 27 20:25:39 2019 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 21:25:39 -0400 Subject: Need some Sun VME boards... (and if someone has a power supply...) Message-ID: Folks, I have been able to get the Sun 3/110 to boot using the SCSI2SD board as I had asked about earlier (if you want to see the details of what I did, I posted to the sun-rescue list...) However, I can't seem to get more that 4mb to work in the 3/110 chassis ( the 2nd chassis I have is 240v, and so far that doesn't look like it's switchable for use in 115v land...) I've tried the two 4mb boards I have ( both 501-1132 boards ) one has a gouge in the ground plane but the bulk of the ground plane is intact and one says Parity Error 3/17/16 ( not my writing, from the person I got it from ) so I'm assuming that would work but generate an error, similar to Clearpoint board I have that I can't figure out jumpers for. However I can't get the machine to even boot with the boards in. In both cases the lights on the CPU board all light up. Which indicates some form of reset. I've checked the boards dip switches. They are set according to the FEH as 3 on U3118 and 4 on U3119. Jumper J3102 is jumped as well. I've tried them with the VME Bus Px03 and Px04 both jumpered and unjumpered. Same results in all cases. I don't think it's a power issue, as the machine boots with 3 cards ( I.e. 8mb incompatible sun board or Clearpoint SNXRAM card, with SCSI card in both cases ). I've tried with and without SCSI card. All same results. Soooo, question is, do I just have two bad 4mb cards? Am I missing some setting? I don't see anything to set on CPU board. If so anybody got memory cards they're willing to trade that would work in a 3/110? I've got an 8mb 501-1102 or a 32mb 501-1254 32 mb card to trade, memory wise. I am trying to build up 2 3/110 machines, so would like 2 4mb boards at least. I've also got a 3/110 cpu board that has a blown cap to replace but otherwise works, and a couple SMD drive controller boards. I also just realized I have a a Sun 2 VME SCSI board - ( 501-1149 * combo: 501-1045 "Sun-2" SCSI in 270-1059 6U/9U VME ) And of course if anybody has a spare 3/1xx power supply that is configured for 115v also be interested in that. ( and another SCSI card with an external connection would be useful ) Earl From cctalk at snarc.net Wed Mar 27 22:12:37 2019 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 27 Mar 2019 23:12:37 -0400 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Rick, thank you for exhibiting and for your glowing report! > Hi, everyone, > > Myself and my friend Mike, representing the Old Calculator Museum, > exhibited the line of Wang Laboratories electronic calculators at the > Vintage Computer Federation's Vintage Computer Festival/Pacific > Northwest edition, at the Living Computer Museum+Labs in Seattle, > Washington this past weekend. > > This was the 2nd annual VCF/PNW, and it was clearly a success, as it was > significantly larger than the first event last year (which I went to, > but didn't exhibit at). There were 30 exhibits, all of which were > really interesting, and a good-sized consignment area, as well as quite > a group of guest speakers who had interesting topics to present. Of > course, being held in the Living Computer Museum+Labs was a bonus, as > the museum is an amazing place, with lots of vintage computers up and > running and accessible for people to actually use and experience. > > The Old Calculator Museum exhibit consisted of a Wang LOCI-2 and punched > card readers (1st and 2nd-generation card readers), a Wang 360E w/320K > keyboard/display unit;362E with 370 Programmer and 371 Punched Card > Reader; 360SE 4-terminal timeshared calculator package with two 360KT > trig keyboards, 360K, and 320K keyboards, all running simultaneously > off the 360SE electronics unit; a Wang 720C; Wang 600-14TP; Wang > 500-14TP; Wang 462 and 452 Programmable calculators; and a Wang C-52. > These are representatives of all of the lines of calculators that Wang > Laboratories made during its years in the electronic calculator market > (1965-1974). All of the machines were running and available for > visitors to play with, with the exception of the LOCI-2 (which has a > thermal issue that manifests after about 3 minutes of operation) and the > 500-14TP, which has some kind of problem that renders it catatonic that > I've not yet had a chance to try to diagnose/repair). Also shown was > an original Wang Labs factory spare parts kit for the 300-series > calculators & peripherals, another Wang 360SE electronics package opened > up so people could see the insides, a number of circuit boards from Wang > 300-series keyboard/display units, as well as core memory boards from > 300-series electronics packages, core memory and circuit boards from > Wang 700-series calculators, and original sales documentation for Wang's > 700, 500, and 600-series calculators. > > The exhibit turned out pretty well, though I didn't have time to make up > signs to identify the stuff until we actually got there and made > hand-written signs, which turned out to be good enough -- it seems that > people could actually read my chicken-scratch handwriting. The signs > included the retail price at the time the machine was introduced, and > people were stunned that in 1971, a Wang 720C outfitted as the exhibited > machine retailed for $7,000. A lot of people asked how much that would > be in today's dollars, and I was able to use my phone to find > out...about $50,000. > > The exhibit was almost constantly busy both days for the whole time the > museum was open, (10 AM - 5 PM), and the folks were all very careful > with the old machines, and had really great questions about them. I > was pretty surprised at how much interest there was in these old beasts. > The crowd was pretty mixed in age, from folks who actually used examples > of the machines in school, to youngsters who were totally shocked that > this is what calculators were like 50 years ago. The machines ran the > whole time the exhibit was open, and amazingly, despite the old > Germanium-based transistors in the Wang 300-series calculators, as well > as fussy magnetic rope ROMs and core memory in the 700 and 600-series > machines, they ran trouble-free. A lot of folks had trouble getting the > machines to give answers they expected because of Wang's unusual math > entry method. Once they were given a simple explanation of the way the > machines worked, they caught on quickly, and got answers they expected. > It was a lot of fun to explain and demonstrate the machines to the > visitors. The Wang 370 Programmer hooked up to the 362E electronics > package was popular. I had a little program punched up on a card that > would perform an iterative approximation of Pi. It'd run for 100 > iterations, then stop and display the approximation it had come to thus > far. People were fascinated by the "spinning" Nixie Tubes as the > machine churned away on the iterations. People also liked the 360KT > keyboards hooked up the 360SE simultaneous timeshared calculator > electronics package. They enjoyed it when I demonstrated the two 360KT > keyboard/display units running the Sine of 45 degrees at the same time. > The timesharing between the two terminals was obvious as the calculator > switched back and forth between each of the keyboards as the > calculation, which takes about 25 seconds, was being performed. > > Nixie tubes were a big attraction. Many younger folks had never seen > them in person before, but almost everyone knew about them. I think > that the popularization of Nixie tubes in the form of clocks using Nixie > tubes for display has brought Nixies to the attention of folks that > didn't experience them in the day, but have seen stuff online about > Nixie tubes. > > I did get a little time to wander around the event and look at the other > exhibits (there were 30 this year!), and the stuff the folks had was > amazing. I was really impressed by Josh Dersch's exhibit of PERC > workstations...it was truly amazing to see these rare machines running! > I really liked Vince Slyngstad's PDP 8/e with a custom Omnibus board > that replicates the vintage (and rare) X/Y analog output board using a > CPLD and a couple of DACs such that the PDP 8/e was running actual > SPACEWAR code and displaying on a Tektronix display tube. There were > a lot of other really great exhibits, including a very complete Atari > 800 systems running office productivity tools that made what was > considered a gaming computer into a true office machine that was ahead > of its time. There was a great exhibit of some classic Silicon Graphics > machines running, an exhibit of just about every type of floppy disc and > optical media ever produced (some of which are very rare), and a couple > of exhibits related to accurately emulating classic computers using > contemporary microprocessors to either run vintage "lights & switches" > front panels, or even miniaturized front panels built to look and run > like the original computers. All of the exhibits were well presented > and truly interesting. > > Just before the event closed, I took a few minutes so I could go > upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10(which > I'd have to say is my favorite vintage computer), when my friend and > exhibit helper Mike came through the doors of the computer room, pointed > at me, and motioned for me to come with him. I had been talking to two > very nice young gentlemen who had a lot of questions about the KA-10, > and had to beg their forgiveness as I had to leave. I followed Mike > down the stairs, and a big crowd of people was there. I didn't realize > it, but the awards ceremony was going on while I was upstairs. Mike > guided me to Mike Brutman, the event organizer, and he presented me with > "The Most Interesting Presentation" award! I was completely stunned. > I never would have thought that a couple of tables of old calculators > with hand-written signs would merit such an award, but I was very > honored and humbled to receive it. > > The event was very well-organized. The Living Computer Museum+Labs > staff and volunteers did an amazing job getting the museum set up for > the exhibits, with tables, tablecloths, and chairs all in place and > ready to go when we arrived Friday. Mike Brutman was fantastic! He was > so nice, accommodating, and supportive of my exhibit (which, by > definition, was somewhat outside the "Vintage Computer" realm), as well > as doing a completely amazing job of organizing such a complicated > event. Everything went off smoothly, from the set up Friday night, > through the two days of the event, awards Sunday after the doors closed > to the public, and tear-down and haul out. Our exhibit was the last > one out the door, as it's rather tedious packing these old machines up, > making sure that they are cozily packed within the crates with a lot of > padding in between them. It took my about 2 days to get everything > packed to head up there, and we had a little over two hours to repack it > all after the event closed...we were running like banshees to get > everything packed safely and loaded into the van. > > The trip home went smoothly with no problems. I was totally exhausted > Monday afternoon when we got home. Mike and I unloaded all the crates > and stuff from the van into the museum building, and Mike headed home. > I went to the house, sat down on the sofa and turned on the TV, and was > dead to the world when my wife got home from work a few hours later. I > don't remember anything from the time I sat down until she got home. > > I haven't unpacked anything yet...I needed a day yesterday to get a > bunch of errands done, and reply to a backlog of Emails that stacked up > while I was away and didn't have time to tend to them. Later this > afternoon, I'll get everything unpacked and back on the display shelves, > and test 'em out. Hopefully everything will work fine after the trip > home. > > I want to take this opportunity to thank my long-time and cherished > friend, Mike Weiler, for taking three days off work to come help with > the exhibit. He was a real trooper, helping people understand how to > use the machines, manning the exhibit when I wanted to wander around and > look at the other exhibits and the new machines at the Living Computer > Museum+Labs (including the awesome KA-10 PDP-10 running in the machine > room upstairs...what a treat!), as well as fielding questions when I'd > get engaged with a visitor discussing these old calculators. Not to > mention all of his help packing the stuff up before we left, hauling all > the stuff into the museum when we arrived Friday afternoon, helping get > the exhibit set up and organized, tearing everything down and packing it > up after the event closed and hauling it out to the van and getting it > all packed in for the trip home, and helping to unload it all once we > arrived home. Along with all of that, Mike was a godsend in terms of > helping me keep my cool when I'd get stressed out about stuff. There's > not a ghost of a chance I could have done all of this myself. > > I'd also like to thank Mike Brutman for all of the effort and > determination it takes to successfully pull of an event like this. > It was all stunningly well-done! > > My thanks also go out to the other exhibitors at the event, many of > which who came over to visit the Old Calculator Museum exhibit and > compliment us about having these old machines running and available for > visitors to touch and operate. > > Last, but certainly not least, thanks to the Living Computer Museum+Labs > staff and volunteers for all of the work and support that they provided > for this event. The venue amazing, and makes a perfect place for a > vintage computer festival. > > With the success of this year's event, only its second time in the > Pacific Northwest, it is sure to grow even more next year. I am > looking forward to next year's VCF/PNW, where I plan on doing a similar > exhibit of old electronic calculators from the Friden Calculating > Machine Co., with an example of every line of calculator that > Friden/Singer made available for visitors to play with. I just hope my > friend Mike will be up to doing again it next year. > > Just before we left, Erik Klein, the organizer of VCF/West, held in > Mountain View, CA at the Computer History Museum during the first week > in August, came to me and invited me to bring the Wang exhibit down to > the event his summer. I was surprised that there'd be interest, but he > was emphatic that it'd be wonderful to have the exhibit there. I was > honored by this request, and told Erik I'd do all I could to try to make > it to this event. Perhaps if I make it, I'll actually have printed > signs to identify the stuff rather than hand-written signs that I made > "on the fly" as we were setting things up, because I ran out of time to > make decent signs. :-) It's a long trip down there from the Portland, > Oregon vicinity, but I'm going to do all I can to make it if at all > possible. > > The experience was amazing. I've never done anything like this before. > I discovered that there's really something special about seeing people > amazed by how much things have changed since the 1960's. The > calculators really make it so clear just how amazing it is to have an HP > calculator emulation running on a smartphone...and that the smartphone > has far more compute power, storage, and capability than all of the Wang > calculators on display together, with the emulated HP calculator running > far faster than the original calculator it emulates. It's really crazy > just how far we've come in 50 years...and I just can't even begin to > envision what we'll have 50 years from now. I wonder if the tech we > use today will be on display at vintage computer events in 2069? > > A funny note. The whole time I was there on Saturday and Sunday, I was > wearing on my wrist a classic HP-01 wristwatch/calculator. A total of > five people noticed it and commented, and of the five, three knew what > it was, and two were just curious about it because it caught their eye, > but they didn't know what it was. The two that were curious were > completely blown away when I demonstrated it to them. I would have > expected that more folks would have noticed this big gold hunk on my > wrist. > > So, that's my "trip report". To all the ClassicCmp'ers that came to the > event, thanks for coming. See you maybe down at VCF/West, and, fates > willing, next year at VCF/PNW. > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > > > > > > > > > > > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 04:29:48 2019 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 10:29:48 +0100 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 01:41, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > > The american radio history site has this byte issue intact, with your missing pages: > > https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/70s/Byte-1978-01.pdf That copy has page 97/98 missing as well - it's the same scan as can be found various other places. It looks like the only difference is post-processing (so the pdf file size may be different, but as they're all missing the same page it must be from the same original source) From lproven at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 06:59:22 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 12:59:22 +0100 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Mar 2019 at 22:57, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > So, that's my "trip report". Great reading. Thanks for that! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Thu Mar 28 07:46:49 2019 From: huw.davies at kerberos.davies.net.au (Huw Davies) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 23:46:49 +1100 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Wow - a LOCI-2 - now that brings back some good memories - nearly 50 years since I last used one :-( > On 28 Mar 2019, at 08:56, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > > The Old Calculator Museum exhibit consisted of a Wang LOCI-2 and punched > card readers (1st and 2nd-generation card readers), Huw Davies | e-mail: Huw.Davies at kerberos.davies.net.au Melbourne | "If soccer was meant to be played in the Australia | air, the sky would be painted green" From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 28 08:17:21 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 09:17:21 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum Message-ID: <20190328131721.5411818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rick Bensene > upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10 Wow! That's a rara avis indeed; I wasn't sure there were any left. Does anyone know where this one came from? Noel From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu Mar 28 08:22:01 2019 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 09:22:01 -0400 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: I have what I think is a complete collection of Byte magazines. I am looking at January 1978, Volume 3 Number 1, pages 97/98 as I type. Joe Heck On 3/28/2019 5:29 AM, Tor Arntsen via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 01:41, Randy Dawson via cctalk > wrote: >> >> The american radio history site has this byte issue intact, with your missing pages: >> >> https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/70s/Byte-1978-01.pdf > > That copy has page 97/98 missing as well - it's the same scan as can > be found various other places. It looks like the only difference is > post-processing (so the pdf file size may be different, but as they're > all missing the same page it must be from the same original source) > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 09:16:05 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 15:16:05 +0100 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <20190328131721.5411818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190328131721.5411818C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Den tors 28 mars 2019 kl 14:17 skrev Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > > From: Rick Bensene > > > upstairs to the computer room and take some photos of the KA-10 > > Wow! That's a rara avis indeed; I wasn't sure there were any left. Does > anyone know where this one came from? > Sweden. It is KATIA. Peter L?thbergs collection. https://mobile.twitter.com/LivingComputers/status/1102063746019549184?fbclid=IwAR2SeOPHUSZmTzHLGenRVZ-6KZQlx5IRgh4xHumARbBMDrG5DTMRxCqQWjE /Mattis > > Noel > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Mar 28 11:43:44 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 09:43:44 -0700 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery Message-ID: Does anyone have a working Apollo 3C505 ISA ethernet board handy to look at? The MAME guys are trying to figure out if the boot prom and the firmware eproms are populated. There is conflicting information on the net. https://jim.rees.org/apollo-archive/photo-gallery/ether-505.jpg shows no boot prom, but I dumped a boot prom from a board a while ago with 68000 code in it, but didn't dump any firmware eproms, which would have been an odd thing to forget to do. From pb at pbcl.net Thu Mar 28 12:02:53 2019 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 17:02:53 +0000 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> On Thu, 2019-03-28 at 09:43 -0700, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a working Apollo 3C505 ISA ethernet board handy to look at? I have a 3c505 somewhere but I don't think it is an Apollo one. The Linux kernel configuration help message from that era read: tristate "Apollo 3c505 support" depends on NET_ETHERNET && APOLLO help Say Y or M here if your Apollo has a 3Com 3c505 ISA Ethernet card. If you don't have one made for Apollos, you can use one from a PC, except that your Apollo won't be able to boot from it (because the code in the ROM will be for a PC). which does indeed seem to imply that the Apollo units did have the boot PROM populated, and that the only difference between the Apollo and non-Apollo variants was the bits in that PROM. I don't think the Linux device driver had any mechanism for loading firmware into the card which would also suggest that it must have had an onboard firmware PROM as well. But I'll see if I can locate my unit later and confirm that. p. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 28 14:34:29 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 15:34:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum Message-ID: <20190328193429.D493A18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > It is KATIA. Peter Lothbergs collection. Ah. I wonder where it came from originally? That looks like a relatively 'new' one; the older KA10's had black panels. And it's odd (to me, at least) to see TU56's on a KA10. I wonder how many KA10's are left in the world? I have this vague memory that MIT-AI might have gone to Sweden, but I also have a memory that that was the plan, but some how it didn't happen? Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 14:36:43 2019 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 15:36:43 -0400 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <20190328193429.D493A18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190328193429.D493A18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have a pretty full complement of printed manuals, so if anyone wants to send me a PDP 10, I would appreciate it. . I guess I would even pick it up. Yes. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 3:34 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > It is KATIA. Peter Lothbergs collection. > > Ah. I wonder where it came from originally? > > That looks like a relatively 'new' one; the older KA10's had black panels. > And it's odd (to me, at least) to see TU56's on a KA10. > > I wonder how many KA10's are left in the world? I have this vague memory > that > MIT-AI might have gone to Sweden, but I also have a memory that that was > the > plan, but some how it didn't happen? > > Noel > From pb at pbcl.net Thu Mar 28 15:34:59 2019 From: pb at pbcl.net (Phil Blundell) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 20:34:59 +0000 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> References: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: <1553805299.2594.1.camel@pbcl.net> On Thu, 2019-03-28 at 17:02 +0000, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > I'll see if I can locate my unit later and confirm that. FWIW... https://photos.app.goo.gl/2mohWXwcdBS8uE9T9 p. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 16:00:13 2019 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 22:00:13 +0100 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <20190328193338.DC27A18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190328193338.DC27A18C074@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: torsdag 28 mars 2019 skrev Noel Chiappa : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > It is KATIA. Peter Lothbergs collection. > > Ah. I wonder where it came from originally? It has been in use at STACKEN at least since the beginning of the 80ies until maybe mid nineties. STACKEN is the computer club at KTH in Stockholm. https://techworld.idg.se/2.2524/1.454545/the-stacken-story I think that some pictures are from the big computer hall I visited when studying at KTH. But it might be Collosal Cave Computing Center. > That looks like a relatively 'new' one; the older KA10's had black panels. > And it's odd (to me, at least) to see TU56's on a KA10. It is TU55s as far as I can see. > > I wonder how many KA10's are left in the world? I have this vague memory > that > MIT-AI might have gone to Sweden, but I also have a memory that that was > the > plan, but some how it didn't happen? /Mattis > > Noel > From korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu Thu Mar 28 16:17:38 2019 From: korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu (Eric Korpela) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 14:17:38 -0700 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: <1553805299.2594.1.camel@pbcl.net> References: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> <1553805299.2594.1.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: If it's like the PC version, the two populated ROMS are firmware for the 80186 and the 82586. The empty socket is the boot prom. On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:35 PM Phil Blundell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 2019-03-28 at 17:02 +0000, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: > > I'll see if I can locate my unit later and confirm that. > > FWIW... > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/2mohWXwcdBS8uE9T9 > > p. > > -- Eric Korpela korpela at ssl.berkeley.edu AST:7731^29u18e3 From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 17:43:49 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 16:43:49 -0600 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: References: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> <1553805299.2594.1.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 3:18 PM Eric Korpela via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If it's like the PC version, the two populated ROMS are firmware for the > 80186 and the 82586. The empty socket is the boot prom. Well, firmware for the 80186 anyway. The 82586 doesn't execute external firmware. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Mar 28 17:52:23 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 22:52:23 +0000 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: References: <3f53055c7677e30befb253e04a18344867d518e1.camel@pbcl.net> <1553805299.2594.1.camel@pbcl.net> Message-ID: On 3/28/19 5:17 PM, Eric Korpela via cctalk wrote: > If it's like the PC version, the two populated ROMS are firmware for the > 80186 and the 82586. The empty socket is the boot prom. > > On Thu, Mar 28, 2019 at 1:35 PM Phil Blundell via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 2019-03-28 at 17:02 +0000, Phil Blundell via cctalk wrote: >>> I'll see if I can locate my unit later and confirm that. >> >> FWIW... >> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/2mohWXwcdBS8uE9T9 >> Wow.... That looks like the card TRWIND made whan IO was working for them. Only with a 3Com label instead of the TRW label. :-) It could be used in both smart and dumb mode (with the 186 chip removed). It was usually used in dumb mode as there was never any advantage to running it in smart mode. Even if you loaded up the RAM chips on the end of the card. I'll bet I still have some of those 80186 chips sitting in a box around here somewhere. I did eventually get rid of the boards I had as I haven't seen a box with an ISA slot in over a decade. bill From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 17:52:26 2019 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 16:52:26 -0600 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: pages 97-98 extracted from a different scan: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/byte/byte-197801-97-98.pdf From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Thu Mar 28 21:14:33 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 22:14:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: <486854103.240004.1553825673393@email.ionos.com> > On March 28, 2019 at 6:52 PM Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > > pages 97-98 extracted from a different scan: > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/retrocomputing/byte/byte-197801-97-98.pdf The original request was for pages 96 and 97. Turns out that I only needed 96, which I got. Thanks, Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From ken.shirriff at gmail.com Thu Mar 28 11:46:55 2019 From: ken.shirriff at gmail.com (Ken Shirriff) Date: Thu, 28 Mar 2019 09:46:55 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? Message-ID: I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) Thanks, Ken From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 04:16:50 2019 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:16:50 +0100 Subject: Looking for Byte Jan 78 missing page In-Reply-To: References: <840063356.12543.1553451630974@email.ionos.com> <39C88F0E-DEBB-4840-848F-93F9807FA6CE@pski.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Mar 2019 at 10:29, Tor Arntsen wrote: > > On Mon, 25 Mar 2019 at 01:41, Randy Dawson via cctalk > wrote: > > > > The american radio history site has this byte issue intact, with your missing pages: > > > > https://www.americanradiohistory.com/Archive-Byte/70s/Byte-1978-01.pdf > > That copy has page 97/98 missing as well - I meant to say 96/97, but that's actually wrong too - the missing sheet contains pages 95/96. And page 96 is the article page that Peter Cetinski provided a photo for. From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Fri Mar 29 05:57:39 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 06:57:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte Magazine Message-ID: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> In a previous thread I asked for a couple of specific pages from Byte magazine, which I got (thanks to all, especially Peter, for helping out!) But that brings up a bigger issue (no pun intended.) About a year ago I found the Byte scans on americanradiohistory.org and started reading from the start. I found that those scans were less than great, with many missing pages, pages out of order, pages scanned at resolutions too low to read, and a few other problems. I went searching the web for other scans and, with a few exceptions for individual issues, found that ALL the collections of scans seemed to be the same ones, with the same bad pages. I certainly appreciate the considerable effort of whoever did those scans, but I think Byte is too important to not have good scans available. Perhaps a project to get those good scans created would be something worthwhile for the members of this list to take on. I realize what a huge project it is. Just going through the currently available scans to find which pages are bad or missing is a large and time-consuming effort. But my opinion is that it is important and worthwhile. Any thoughts? Thanks, Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 29 08:38:13 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum Message-ID: <20190329133813.9175F18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind >> Ah. I wonder where it came from originally? > It has been in use at STACKEN at least since the beginning of the 80ies I was meaning before that; somewhere in Scandanavia, I expect? Eh, not that important, I guess. >> And it's odd (to me, at least) to see TU56's on a KA10. > It is TU55s as far as I can see. Ah, I was confused by an aspect of the pictures on that page which I hadn't noticed before! The fourth picture in that set: https://mobile.twitter.com/LivingComputers/status/1102063746019549184/photo/4 which is where I saw the TU56's (along with at least one TU55), shows a different machine! I just assumed all four were of the KA, but the last shows them in front of a KI. Although one has to look carefully to notice that, though, as the size, colours, etc are very similar; it thus looks _very_ similar to the KA in the first ones. I'd still love to find out if there are any other KA's left - does anyone know of any? Noel From bygg at cafax.se Fri Mar 29 15:15:06 2019 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 15:15:06 WET Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: Your message of Fri, 29 Mar 2019 09:38:13 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: Noel Chiappa wrote: > > It has been in use at STACKEN at least since the beginning of the 80ies > > I was meaning before that; somewhere in Scandanavia, I expect? Eh, not that > important, I guess. >From Finland. Sold used by DEC Sweden to Stacken, for 1 SEK (aound 20 cents at that time). > Noel --Johnny /\_/\ ( *.* ) > ^ < From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Mar 29 10:18:59 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:18:59 -0500 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: > I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in > order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way > there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. > So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on > bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. > > I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 > instruction set. If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a 360 by an emulator? It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL (Register Transfer Logic) in a "language". > I've figured out a bunch of the strange > micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 > through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, > like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which > does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 > microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) > Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in the serpentine word-line traces of the control store boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor read only storage) where there were two word lines on one board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor, called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word, if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a microcode change required a board master artwork to be changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the required documents for that project. Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Fri Mar 29 10:38:53 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 10:38:53 -0500 Subject: Apollo Ethernet EPROM mystery In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My DN3000 has a 3C505 that I got off of eBay in 2012. It does *not* have a boot ROM, just the firmware EEPROMS - National NMC27C64N. Works fine, if I recall correctly. I expect I would have tested it as soon as I got it, and I did an assign an IP address to it. Unfortunately, my "lab notes" are eluding me at present -- they may be offsite from a recent remodel. But I am almost positive I tested it. My Apollo manual on the adapter, 009741-00, "Unpacking and Installing the EtherController-AT" is offsite (5 miles, accessible if needs be). I just dumped the firmware: U15 and U16. From looking at the information online on the 3C505 at Bitsavers, those would be required even in an Apollo -- but only for the on-board processor - the Apollo itself would presumably not even be aware of them, so unless the MAME folks are trying to simulate the processor on the adapter, they would not need these ROMS. Still, let me know if you want me to post the firmware onto my Google drive. I also came across the following in my files, dated in 2012, which indicates, as another post here pointed out, that the Apollo Boot ROM is only needed for diskless boot. That rings true - the manual I cited above would confirm that, if needs be. =========================================================================== ------------------------- Installing an Ethernet Controller in an Apollo DN4000 and Living to Tell About It April 20, 1992 Mark C. DiVecchio Silogic Systems 9888 Carroll Center Road Suite 113 San Diego, CA 92126 email ...!ucsd!celit!silogic!markd markd at silogic.uucp Table of Contents 1.0 Environment. . . . . . . . 4 2.0 3C505. . 4 3.0 Run the Jumper Program . . 4 4.0 Test tcp/ip. . . . . . . . 6 5.0 Shut Down the Node . . . . 6 6.0 Installation of the Ethernet Card. . . . . . 6 7.0 Test the Ethernet Card . . 6 8.0 Boot the Node. . . . . . . 6 9.0 Edit These Files . . . . . 7 9.1 /etc/hosts . . . . 7 9.2 /etc/hosts.equiv . 7 9.3 /etc/networks. . . 8 9.4 /etc/rc. . . . . . 8 9.5 /etc/rc.local. . . 9 10.0 Check Files . . . . . . 10 10.1 /etc/inetd.config . . . . . . . . 10 11.0 Edit /etc/daemons . . . 11 12.0 Reboot the Node . . . . 11 13.0 Check It Out. . . . . . 11 14.0 Edit /etc/hosts files . 12 15.0 Test tcp/ip . . . . . . 13 16.0 tcpst Utility . . . . . 14 16.1 tcpst Options . 14 16.2 tcpst Listing . 14 17.0 Acknowledgements. . . . 17 1.0 Environment Our shop is running an Apollo Token Ring (ATR) with one DN4000, 2 DN3010 and 2 DN3000. The DN4000 and two of the DN3010 are running SR10.3. The remaining two DN3000 are running SR10.1. We also have an Ethernet connecting a Sun IPX, a PC running ESIX Unix 4.0.3 and three PC's running NCSA Telnet. We wanted to install a gateway so that every machine on the ATR could have access to every machine on the Ethernet. The ESIX Unix box has all our modems connected to it. We were already running tcp/ip over the ATR and Ethernet separately. There is no need to boot anything diskless over Ethernet. 2.0 3C505 Buy a 3Com 3C505 Ethernet card. This is just a generic off the shelf card. I will not have a diskless boot ROM on it. If you have need to boot diskless, you will have to buy the card from Apollo. 3.0 Run the Jumper Program Run /systest/ssr_util/jumpers and set the jumpers on the card. See Figure 1. The jumper program shows two selections for jumper settings. They are actually both the same. Select DIX if you use thick cable, BNC for thin cable. This sets up the card with : DMA Channel 6 I/O Base 300h Interrupt 10 Memory Address : Unit 0 Address 80000 4.0 Test tcp/ip Make sure that tcp/ip is up and running by pinging each host on the ATR. % ping m07 PING m07: 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 198.8.6.54: icmp_seq=0. time=17. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.6.54: icmp_seq=1. time=10. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.6.54: icmp_seq=2. time=11. ms ----m07 PING Statistics---- 3 packets transmitted, 3 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip (ms) min/avg/max = 10/12/17 5.0 Shut Down the Node Shut down the node and turn off the power. Put the service/normal switch into the service position. 6.0 Installation of the Ethernet Card Install the card into any slot. Power on the node. I did not find it necessary to tell CONFIG that I have installed the 3C505. If you do run CONFIG, set up the machine to have two network controllers, the Ring and the Ethernet card. Select the Ring as the primary network. When I did this, the boot diagnostics had trouble finding the card even though everything worked fine. Try whatever works. I decided not to tell CONFIG about the card so the machine would still automatically boot. I had no problems with this. 7.0 Test the Ethernet Card Press RETURN a few times until you get the '>' MD prompt. Type RE and RETURN a few times until you hear a beep. At the MD prompt again, run TE, just to make sure have not messed up anything. Since we did not put the Ethernet card into the Configuration Tables using CONFIG, TE does not test the card. Don't put the case on yet. Next run EX DEX to actually test the Ethernet card. Select the Ethernet card by typing SELECT ETHER -ALL. Then run the test by typing GO. Put the service/normal switch back into the normal position. 8.0 Boot the Node Start Domain O/S by typing EX DOMAIN_OS and pressing RETURN. The rear LED on the card should blink at about a 1 second rate as the OS boots. 9.0 Edit These Files Login as root and edit the following files. The changed areas are shown in bold larger typeface. For the bigger files, only the portion changed is shown with portion not shown indicated by a string of dots '.'. 9.1 /etc/hosts I've used 198.8.6 for the ATR network and 198.8.7 for the Ethernet network. This machine, the gateway, has two entries (m01 on the ATR and apollo on the Ethernet). This is specified via the ifconfig command in rc.local. If your machines aren't actually on the Internet, you can make up the network addresses. If you are on the Internet, then you have been assigned addresses. Use those. 'localhost' and 'defaultmask' most likely have the values shown. The 'defaultmask' of 255.255.0.0 indicate this is a gateway (by the first 0 entry). A network without gateways would probably want to use 255.255.255.0. 127.0.0.1 localhost 255.255.0.0 defaultmask 198.8.6.51 s01 # DN3000 198.8.6.52 s02 # DN3000 198.8.6.54 m07 # DN3000 198.8.6.55 m08 # DN3000 198.8.6.56 m01 # DN4000 Gateway 198.8.7.199 apollo # DN4000 Gateway 198.8.7.200 markd # PC Running Telnet 198.8.7.201 johnp # PC Running Telnet 198.8.7.202 deba # PC Running Telnet 198.8.7.203 triton # Sun IPX 9.2 /etc/hosts.equiv Setup per your local conventions. s01 s02 m07 m08 m01 markd johnp deba apollo triton 9.3 /etc/networks Put a line in this file for each network that is being gatewayed through this node. aring 198.8.6 # Apollo Token Ring Network ether 198.8.7 # Ethernet Network 9.4 /etc/rc # # `node_data/etc/rc (DOMAIN/OS version SR10 ) # @(#)rc 4.21 - 90/07/06 # # This script is run by /etc/init during node startup. # To start up a daemon at boot time, create a file of # the same name in the directory /etc/daemons. E.g., # if the file /etc/daemons/inetd exists, then /etc/inetd # will be started. # # echo commands are parenthesized so that they will be run # in a subprocess (echo is builtin to the shell). Otherwise, # the shell running this script (and all the programs started # from it) would acquire /dev/console as their controlling tty. # # the setting of the SYSTYPE variable while this script is running # is determined by the contents of /etc/environ. . . . . # # On a routing node, start Domain internet routing here (before TCP and NCS). # Put a timestamp in `node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log # and put error messages from the routing process in that file. # # Create the /etc/daemons/rtsvc file, if any of the rtsvc commands are uncommented. # if [ -f /etc/rtsvc -a -f /etc/daemons/rtsvc ]; then (echo "Starting Apollo Token Ring routing" > /dev/console) (echo "Routing startup at \c" >> \`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log) if [ -f /bin/date ]; then (echo "`/bin/date` \n" >> \`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log) else (echo "`/com/date` \n" >> \`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log) fi # Edit and uncomment the following line(s) to make one line for # each network. Use one line for each device and include the # correct device name and network number. # rtsvc commands must run to completion before TCP, NCS, or location # broker start, so DON'T USE "& in these lines" !! (echo "Starting Ethernet routing (by MCD)" > /dev/console) /etc/rtsvc -dev ETH802.3_AT -ne 1 -r 1>/dev/null 2>>\`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log #/etc/rtsvc -dev device_name -ne network_number -r 1>/dev/null 2>>\`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log #/etc/rtsvc -dev device_name -ne network_number -r 1>/dev/null 2>>\`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log #/etc/rtsvc -dev device_name -ne network_number -r 1>/dev/null 2>>\`node_data/system_logs/startup_rtsvc.log fi . . . . exit 0 9.5 /etc/rc.local # # `node_data/etc/rc.local (DOMAIN/OS version SR10 ) # @(#)rc.local 4.18 - 90/08/31 # . . . . # # Enable network interface(s) for TCP. # If the node has only one network interface, # then you can enable it using the pseudo-interface # 'net0'. If the node has more than one network # interface, or more than one internet address, # then you must enable each interface using its # explicit interface name (eth0, dr0, itr0, sl0, eth1, dr1, itr1) # and its numeric IP address (e.g. 128.5.1.2). # # If the node is running in a subnetted environment, # you must supply 'netmask ' to ifconfig. # By default, the node enables interface 'net0' with # the subnet mask assigned to the pseudo host name # 'defaultmask' in /etc/hosts. If the name defaultmask # is not in /etc/hosts, then subnets are not enabled for # the interface. # # You can use the form 'netmask icmp-request' to # indicate you wish the host to obtain the subnet mask # from local gateways, using the ICMP Address Mask # Request/Reply protocol. You can also enable this # ICMP Address Mask protocol by assigning the address # 255.255.255.255 to the pseudo host name defaultmask # in /etc/hosts. # # If the node must interoperate with certain older # TCP implementations, then add 'broadcast 0' # to the ifconfig command line. The node will then # send the '0-form' IP broadcast address, which is the # one recognized by bsd4.2 and some other older tcp's. # # Ifconfig must complete before routed starts up, # so DO NOT supply a trailing & on the command line. # if [ -f /etc/ifconfig ]; then # /etc/ifconfig net0 `/etc/hostname` netmask defaultmask /etc/ifconfig lo0 localhost /etc/ifconfig dr0 198.8.6.56 netmask defaultmask # /etc/ifconfig dr1 /etc/ifconfig eth0 198.8.7.199 netmask defaultmask # /etc/ifconfig eth1 # /etc/ifconfig itr0 # /etc/ifconfig itr1 # /etc/ifconfig sl0 fi # . . . . # # Enable dynamic routing. # Options include -s: be a routing supplier, -q: be quiet, # -t: trace rip traffic, -f: flush routing tables, # and -h: exit on hosts when routing tables stabilizes. # Remove the -q option below for gateway nodes. # See routed manual page for details. # if [ -f /etc/routed -a -f /etc/daemons/routed ]; then (echo " routed\c" >/dev/console) # /etc/routed -f -q /etc/routed -f # gateway node fi # . . . . 10.0 Check Files Check the following files to make sure they are complete. 10.1 /etc/inetd.config No changes required to this file. Just make sure it looks like this. # inetd (Internet daemon) configuration file # tells inetd how to startup daemons for things in /etc/services # Format is: # service socket proto- wait/ server server # name type col nowait user program path program args # # telnetd/rlogind allow incoming login. telnet stream tcp nowait root /etc/telnetd telnetd login stream tcp nowait root /etc/rlogind rlogind # rshd/rexecd offer remote command execution. shell stream tcp nowait root /etc/rshd rshd exec stream tcp nowait root /etc/rexecd rexecd # ftpd offers file transfer services. ftp stream tcp nowait root /etc/ftpd ftpd # tftpd offers UDP_based file transfer services. (do not run tftpd as root!) #tftp dgram udp wait tftp /etc/tftpd tftpd # ntalkd offers new 4.3BSD talk service. #ntalk dgram udp wait root /etc/ntalkd ntalkd # biff(comsat) offers notification of incoming SMTP mail. #biff dgram udp wait root /etc/comsat comsat # fingerd offers finger user identification service #finger stream tcp nowait root /etc/fingerd fingerd 11.0 Edit /etc/daemons Edit the directory /sys/node_data/etc/daemons to start /etc/rtsvc. To do this, 'cd' to this directory and use the 'touch' command to create the zero length file rtsvc. Generally, a non-registry node should have the following files in the /etc/daemons directory. A registry node may have rgyd and glbd as well. Your node may have even a different mix. This is what the directory may look like. % ls -laL /etc/daemons drwxrwxrwx+ 1 root staff 1024 Nov 27 19:56 . drwxr-xr-x+ 1 root staff 1024 Nov 27 19:55 .. -rwxrwxrwx+ 2 root staff 4533 Jul 9 18:56 README -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Jul 20 10:40 inetd -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Jul 10 13:55 llbd -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Jul 13 09:35 routed -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Nov 27 16:31 rtsvc -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Nov 27 19:56 rwhod -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Jul 13 09:35 tcpd -rw-r--r-- 1 root sys_admin 0 Nov 27 19:56 timed 12.0 Reboot the Node Shutdown and reboot the node. The rear LED on the Ethernet card should still be going at about 1 blink per second and new the front LED should be steady on indicating successful initialization of the card. 13.0 Check It Out Login as root and run the following to make sure all is well: % rtsvc Controller Net ID Service offered ================== ======== ==================== RING 0 Own traffic only ETH802.3_AT 1 Internet routing % netstat -I Name Mtu Network Address Ipkts Ierrs Opkts Oerrs Collis lo0 9216 127.0.0 localhost 0 0 0 0 0 dr0 1268 aring m01 381 0 401 0 0 eth0 1500 ether apollo 206 0 165 0 0 The Network and Address should reflect the values you put into the /etc/hosts and /etc/networks files. % netstat -h Host Stat Ref Pct Mapaddr markd U 1 0 00:00:c0:e7:60:2c s01 U 0 0 00:00:a9:1e:00:00 s02 U 0 0 00:00:aa:b7:00:00 m07 U 0 0 00:00:d0:ce:00:00 The Mapaddr should show the Apollo Node ID's. Other non-Apollo Nodes should show the hardware Ethernet address of the card installed in that system. Here, 'markd' is a PC running NCSA Telnet. Its Ethernet hardware address is 00:00:c0:e7:60:2c. (That is a number burned into a PROM on the Ethernet card by its manufacturer - in this case a Western Digital Elite 16). The other hosts listed are all Apollo Nodes. % netstat -a Active connections (including servers) Proto Recv-Q Send-Q Local Address Foreign Address (state) tcp 0 0 m01.telnet markd.8064 ESTABLISHED tcp 0 0 *.ftp *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.exec *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.shell *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.login *.* LISTEN tcp 0 0 *.telnet *.* LISTEN udp 0 0 *.ncs *.* udp 0 0 *.timed *.* udp 0 0 *.who *.* udp 0 0 *.route *.* % ifconfig eth0 eth0: flags=43 inet 198.8.7.199 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 198.8.7.255 macaddr 8:0:1e:0:fc:50 Indicates the Ethernet interface is up and running. % ifconfig dr0 dr0: flags=43 inet 198.8.6.56 netmask ffffff00 broadcast 198.8.6.255 Indicates the ATR interface is up and running. 14.0 Edit /etc/hosts files Next, go all all machines in both networks and fix up their /etc/hosts, /etc/hosts.equiv, and /etc/networks files to match those files on the gateway machine. On the ATR, you can specify this gateway node as the tcp_admin host. Domain O/S then uses softlinks for these files on each node pointing to this node. Then you only have to keep one set of files up to date. To do this, create these links on the other nodes: ln -s //m01 //x01/etc/tcp_admin ln -s tcp_admin/etc/hosts //x01/etc/hosts ln -s tcp_admin/etc/hosts.equiv //x01/etc/hosts.equiv ln -s tcp_admin/etc/networks //x01/etc/networks Where m01 is the gateway node, and x01 is each of the other nodes in the ATR. If you do this, an ls should have these entries on the tcp_admin machine (I've deleted a bunch of lines from the ls listing): %ls -la total 5723 drwxrwxrwx+ 1 root 11264 Nov 27 21:21 . drwxrwxrwx+ 1 root 1024 Oct 8 14:41 .. lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Nov 27 21:21 daemons -> `node_data/etc/daemons -rw-r--r--+ 1 root 197 Nov 27 21:10 hosts -rw-r--r--+ 1 root 44 Nov 27 20:16 hosts.equiv lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 25 Nov 27 21:21 inetd.conf -> `node_data/etc/inetd.conf -rw-r--r--+ 1 root 28 Nov 27 19:35 networks lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 23 Nov 27 21:21 rc.local -> `node_data/etc/rc.local lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Nov 27 21:21 rc.user -> `node_data/etc/rc.user lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 21 Nov 27 21:21 remote -> `node_data/etc/remote lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 5 Nov 27 21:21 tcp_admin -> //m01 An ls on a non-tcp_admin node should have these entries : %ls -la total 5717 drwxr-xr-x 1 root 11264 Nov 27 21:08 . drwxr-xr-x 2 root 1024 Jul 13 18:31 .. lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Nov 27 21:08 daemons -> `node_data/etc/daemons lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 19 Nov 27 21:10 hosts -> tcp_admin/etc/hosts lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 25 Nov 27 20:16 hosts.equiv -> tcp_admin/etc/hosts.equiv lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 25 Nov 27 21:21 inetd.conf -> `node_data/etc/inetd.conf lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Nov 27 19:35 networks -> tcp_admin/etc/networks lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 23 Nov 27 21:21 rc.local -> `node_data/etc/rc.local lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 22 Nov 27 21:21 rc.user -> `node_data/etc/rc.user lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 21 Nov 27 21:21 remote -> `node_data/etc/remote lrwxrwxrwx 1 root 5 Nov 27 21:21 tcp_admin -> //m01 15.0 Test tcp/ip Test that tcp/ip is gatewaying by going to each host and pinging hosts on the other network. % ping markd PING markd: 56 data bytes 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=0. time=162. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=1. time=153. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=2. time=190. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=3. time=15. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=4. time=17. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=5. time=15. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=6. time=16. ms 64 bytes from 198.8.7.200: icmp_seq=7. time=15. ms ----markd PING Statistics---- 8 packets transmitted, 8 packets received, 0% packet loss round-trip (ms) min/avg/max = 15/72/190 16.0 tcpst Utility Since I can't remember what I had for breakfast let alone all the details about tcp/ip, I've created a shell script to help me automate tcp/ip administration tasks. 16.1 tcpst Options h - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/hosts n - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/networks e - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/hosts.equiv r - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/rc l - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/rc.local c - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/inetd.conf j - Run the jumper program i - Run ifconfig $IF p - Ping a specified host P - Ping each host in turn R - Run rtsvc N - Run netstat d - Display /etc/daemons t - Add (touch) a file to /etc/daemons A - Setup tcp_admin links to $UUNODE from //*/etc/tcp_admin (erases each remote hosts, hosts.equiv and networks) C - Copy //$UUNODE/etc/hosts and hosts.equiv to $NODES X - Change System Node Y - Change Interface - exit program 16.2 tcpst Listing #!/bin/sh # @(#) tcpst v1.0 tcp/ip status utility for SR10.x NODES='m01 m07 m08 s01 s02' if [ $# -gt 0 ] then echo "tcpst: argument error" >&2 echo "usage: tcpst" >&2 exit 1 fi UUNODE=`uuname -l` OTHER=`uuname` IF='dr0' while : do echo "[H[Jtcp/ip MENU machine: $UUNODE interface: $IF h - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/hosts n - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/networks e - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/hosts.equiv r - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/rc l - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/rc.local c - Edit //$UUNODE/etc/inetd.conf j - Run the jumper program i - Run ifconfig $IF p - Ping a specified host P - Ping each host in turn R - Run rtsvc N - Run netstat d - Display /etc/daemons t - Add (touch) a file to /etc/daemons A - Setup tcp_admin links to $UUNODE from //*/etc/tcp_admin (erases each remote hosts, hosts.equiv and networks) C - Copy //$UUNODE/etc/hosts and hosts.equiv to $NODES X - Change System Node Y - Change Interface - exit program Press a letter or :" read CMD case $CMD in "") exit 0;; h) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/hosts" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/hosts;; n) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/networks" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/networks;; e) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/hosts.equiv" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/hosts.equiv;; r) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/rc" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/rc;; l) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/rc.local" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/rc.local;; c) echo "//$UUNODE/etc/inetd.conf" $EDITOR //$UUNODE/etc/inetd.conf;; X) echo "Enter New Machine Name (without //):" read UUNODE;; Y) echo "Enter New Interface :" read IF;; C) echo "Are you sure?" read ANS case $ANS in ""|N|n) echo "tcpst: no action taken" >&2 ;; Y|y) for DEST in $NODES do if [ $UUNODE != $DEST ] then echo Copying from $UUNODE to $DEST cp //$UUNODE/etc/hosts //$DEST/etc/hosts cp //$UUNODE/etc/hosts.equiv //$DEST/etc/hosts.equiv fi done ;; *) echo "tcpst: invalid response '$ANS'" >&2;; esac echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; A) echo "Are you sure? (this will delete remote files and replace with links" read ANS case $ANS in ""|N|n) echo "tcpst: no action taken" >&2 ;; Y|y) for DEST in $NODES do if [ $UUNODE != $DEST ] then echo Setting up tcp_admin link from $DEST to $UUNODE ln -s //$UUNODE //$DEST/etc/tcp_admin ln -s tcp_admin/etc/hosts //$DEST/etc/hosts ln -s tcp_admin/etc/hosts.equiv //$DEST/etc/hosts.equiv ln -s tcp_admin/etc/networks //$DEST/etc/networks fi done ;; *) echo "tcpst: invalid response '$ANS'" >&2;; esac echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; j) /systest/ssr_util/jumper;; i) /etc/ifconfig $IF echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; R) /etc/rtsvc echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; N) echo "[H[Jtcp/ip MENU machine: $UUNODE interface: $IF Enter netstat option a - active connections including servers T - full status h - hardware addresses (ARP Host Table) I - Monitor $IF at 5 second intervals [Angimnrst] - Other Options for default Press a letter or :" read OPT case $OPT in "") /usr/ucb/netstat;; T) /usr/ucb/netstat -$OPT | more;; I) /usr/ucb/netstat -n -I $IF 5;; *) /usr/ucb/netstat -$OPT;; esac echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; p) echo "Enter Host Name:" read DEST ping $DEST 100 5 echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; P) for DEST in $NODES do ping $DEST 100 5 done echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; d) /bin/echo "/etc/daemons:" ls -laL /etc/daemons echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; t) echo "Enter new daemon name:" read DAEMON case $DAEMON in "") echo "tcpst: no action taken" >&2 ;; *) touch /etc/$DAEMON esac echo "Press RETURN" read ANS ;; *) echo "tcpst: invalid argument '$CMD'" >&2 sleep 3 ;; esac done 17.0 Acknowledgements Getting this all to work relied on tidbits received on USENET (comp.sys.apollo) from : dbfunk at ICAEN.UIOWA.EDU Dave B. Funk tomg at cv.hp.com Thomas J.Gilg system at alchemy.chem.utoronto.ca Mike Peterson droms at bucknell.edu Ralph Droms herb at blender.UUCP -- Mark DiVecchio, Silogic Systems, 619-549-9841 K3FWT ----- 9888 Carroll Center Road, Suite 212, San Diego, CA 92126 ----- markd at silogic.uucp BBS 619-549-3927 ...!ucsd!sdcrsi!silogic!markd sdcrsi!silogic!markd at ucsd.edu =================================================================== JRJ On 3/28/2019 11:43 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have a working Apollo 3C505 ISA ethernet board handy to look at? > > The MAME guys are trying to figure out if the boot prom and the firmware eproms are populated. > > There is conflicting information on the net. https://jim.rees.org/apollo-archive/photo-gallery/ether-505.jpg > shows no boot prom, but I dumped a boot prom from a board a while ago with 68000 code in it, but didn't dump > any firmware eproms, which would have been an odd thing to forget to do. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 29 11:51:00 2019 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:51:00 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases. paul From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 29 13:01:40 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 12:01:40 -0600 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/29/2019 4:57 AM, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: > In a previous thread I asked for a couple of specific pages from Byte magazine, which I got (thanks to all, especially Peter, for helping out!) But that brings up a bigger issue (no pun intended.) > > About a year ago I found the Byte scans on americanradiohistory.org and started reading from the start. I found that those scans were less than great, with many missing pages, pages out of order, pages scanned at resolutions too low to read, and a few other problems. I went searching the web for other scans and, with a few exceptions for individual issues, found that ALL the collections of scans seemed to be the same ones, with the same bad pages. > I have been trying to read the Dr Dobbs PDF scans and a few other PDF's. They seem to work only with the NAME BRAND pdf reader. Of course I use the OTHER brand. It would be nice if when scanning a file THEY used a generic output rather than latest bells and whistles.Some PDF's seems to raw bit mapped images that take forever to display. If you can't read them what is use of archiving them. Bitsavers works for everybody but they don't have books in general. Ben. From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 13:08:30 2019 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 19:08:30 +0100 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 19:01, ben via cctalk wrote: > I have been trying to read the Dr Dobbs PDF scans and a few other PDF's. > They seem to work only with the NAME BRAND pdf reader. Of course I use > the OTHER brand. Since you don't name names, I can't directly comment. We don't know what OS you're running. If you have a Mac, then you can get Adobe Reader for it. https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/kb/install-reader-dc-mac-os.html If you run Windows, well, I favour FOSS so I use Sumatra: https://www.sumatrapdfreader.org/free-pdf-reader.html Failing that, there's Foxit which is relatively light: https://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf-reader/ On Linux, where I use XFCE, I favour Xreader as it has a traditional UI rather than the modern GNOME weirdness: https://github.com/linuxmint/xreader/ Original Adobe Acrobat Reader is still available and still works, though. I no longer use KDE but I hear Okular is good: https://okular.kde.org/ The reason I sometimes install the real Adobe thing on my Mac and my Linux machines is that it seems to cope with fancy stuff such as embedded 3D models, forms which must be filled in, stuff like that. For just reading, I find FOSS viewers fine. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From hagstrom at bu.edu Fri Mar 29 13:18:25 2019 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 18:18:25 +0000 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: > On Mar 29, 2019, at 2:01 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > > I have been trying to read the Dr Dobbs PDF scans and a few other PDF's. They seem to work only with the NAME BRAND pdf reader. Of course I use the OTHER brand. It would be nice if when scanning a file THEY used a generic output rather than latest bells and whistles.Some PDF's seems > to raw bit mapped images that take forever to display. If you can't read > them what is use of archiving them. > Bitsavers works for everybody but they don't have books in general. > Ben. Perhaps an obvious thing to say, but I'm sure others who have encountered this would appreciate your efforts if you were to re-scan these things or convert existing scans from the format you are having difficulty with into a format that is less proprietary. There are definitely scans out there that would be better if they were made today or even made with more care. Some things could use re-scanning. Nevertheless, I appreciate the fairly significant amount of effort that went into scanning things originally, particularly when scanners were worse, computers were slower, and disk space was expensive. I am not angry at them for not doing a bunch more work than they actually already did. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 29 14:47:56 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 13:47:56 -0600 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <573d7399-a6a3-93fd-b726-5d8129166afb@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/29/2019 12:18 PM, Hagstrom, Paul wrote: > Perhaps an obvious thing to say, but I'm sure others who have encountered this would appreciate your efforts if you were to re-scan these things or convert existing scans from the format you are having difficulty with into a format that is less proprietary. I am using a PDF reader ( B&W ) that runs android 4.2. I need a DATABOOK for say a 74H00 I got it. Other books I am less lucky with. Right now I am looking modifying the Small C compiler from Dr Dobbs for the homebrew computer I have (living now on a DE1 FPGA card) . A nice 10/20 bit cpu but non standard to check the old back issues for finer details. > There are definitely scans out there that would be better if they were made today or even made with more care. Some things could use re-scanning. > > Nevertheless, I appreciate the fairly significant amount of effort that went into scanning things originally, particularly when scanners were worse, computers were slower, and disk space was expensive. I am not angry at them for not doing a bunch more work than they actually already did. Well CD roms have been around a long time, so archiving data was never a problem. The real problem was all the libraries dumping the older books for the latest windows95 c++ or Microsoft application. They are not online. Google will find a lot books for 2018 but very few from 1975. I am looking for bare metal OS right now, I just finished the I/O for SD card and burned the eeproms on the DE1 card. The hardware has more than 32KB of memory but I would like see if I can get the small c compiler in 24KB of memory with a 8Kb OS. Ben. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 29 15:47:53 2019 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 20:47:53 +0000 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com>, Message-ID: >From an emulation standpoint, latch or flop is not necessarily an issue. It is that it is a state holding element. The only potential issue is if he was doing clock cycle emulation. He'd need to understand what was originally considered a clock cycle. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning via cctalk Sent: Friday, March 29, 2019 9:51 AM To: Jon Elson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Ken Shirriff Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? > On Mar 29, 2019, at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. The same is true for the CDC 6600. Not a big surprise; a transparent latch can be made of two cross-connected gates, while a flip-flop (edge triggered) requires more stuff (four gates?). And the 6600 uses at least four clock phases; in parts of the CPU there are additional clocks so some of the hairy parts are more like 6 or so phases. paul From cym224 at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 16:37:59 2019 From: cym224 at gmail.com (Nemo Nusquam) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 17:37:59 -0400 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <2f46a266-9c95-e257-16cb-df661781b070@gmail.com> On 03/29/19 14:08, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 19:01, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I have been trying to read the Dr Dobbs PDF scans and a few other PDF's. >> They seem to work only with the NAME BRAND pdf reader. Of course I use >> the OTHER brand. > Since you don't name names, I can't directly comment. We don't know > what OS you're running. > > If you have a Mac, then you can get Adobe Reader for it. [...] > For just reading, I find FOSS viewers fine. Indeed, I am really curious as to which PDFs cannot be read by Preview (Mac) or xpdf (X). Could the OP please provide a link? N. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Fri Mar 29 17:39:01 2019 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 16:39:01 -0600 Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <2f46a266-9c95-e257-16cb-df661781b070@gmail.com> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <55e9b31d-aab4-0c4c-ac24-6bd7aab53d69@jetnet.ab.ca> <2f46a266-9c95-e257-16cb-df661781b070@gmail.com> Message-ID: <67fc0143-c034-4769-e78a-cc99809a868b@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/29/2019 3:37 PM, Nemo Nusquam via cctalk wrote: > On 03/29/19 14:08, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, 29 Mar 2019 at 19:01, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have been trying to read the Dr Dobbs PDF scans and a few other PDF's. >>> They seem to work only with the NAME BRAND pdf reader. Of course I use >>> the OTHER brand. >> Since you don't name names, I can't directly comment. We don't know >> what OS you're running. >> >> If you have a Mac, then you can get Adobe Reader for it. > [...] >> For just reading, I find FOSS viewers fine. > > Indeed, I am really curious as to which PDFs cannot be read by Preview > (Mac) or xpdf (X).? Could the OP please provide a link? > > N. > Jelly baby o/s . Ops too much Dr Who , Jelly bean for the android. I did install Adobe Reader, but it way too slow. I need to Install it for my pc, if I can find it among all the other stuff they want bundle you with. Ben. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Mar 29 23:12:19 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 29 Mar 2019 21:12:19 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them? Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Jon Elson , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Friday, March 29, 2019 at 8:45 AM To: Ken Shirriff , , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: IBM 360 Model 50 information? On 03/28/2019 11:46 AM, Ken Shirriff via cctalk wrote: I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 instruction set. If you had a 360 instruction set, why would you implement a 360 by an emulator? It would be most common that a microcode emulator would be a quite different scheme, kind of implementing an RTL (Register Transfer Logic) in a "language". I've figured out a bunch of the strange micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) Wow, what a project! I think the only way to understand the microcode is to follow the signals through the ALD schematics. A microcode programming manual would be of no use to anyone, as the microcode bit pattern was stored in the serpentine word-line traces of the control store boards. 360/50 and 360/65 used CCROS (capacitor-capacitor read only storage) where there were two word lines on one board, one driven and one grounded through a resistor, called drive lines and balance lines, respectively. If there was a wide pad on the drive line opposite the pad on the bit line, that generated a 1 in the control store word, if the wide pad was on the balance line, you got a zero. A very thin Mylar sheet separated the two boards, and pressure was applied by a pressure plate and foam pad. So, a microcode change required a board master artwork to be changed and a new board etched. Not a practical field operation. The only custom microcode I heard of in these models was for the National Airspace System for the FAA traffic control computers. The variant of the 360/50 was called a 9020D display element, and the 360/65 variant was called the 9020E compute element. So, somebody used the required documents for that project. Oh, one other issue is the 360's had no FFs. All storage elements were transparent latches, and they generally used a 4-phase clock. All this is pretty well documented between the ALDs and the FEMM's for the particular model. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 30 09:51:33 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 07:51:33 -0700 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> References: <5C9E3763.5060305@pico-systems.com> <4BAE5F72-D37A-4C49-8A71-C83B574BE0C2@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 3/29/19 9:12 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > Which brings us to the real problem: we don?t have 360 Model 50 ALDs. Anyone has them? I've been looking for years. The few on bitsavers is all I've ever been able to get. Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 30 12:35:11 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 13:35:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? Message-ID: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Al Kossow > Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get > 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me. Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough up the info themselves, that might be doable. I'd try and get a blanket OK for anything more than 20 years old, i) that should be long enough that they'd be OK with it, ii) a moving thing like that would mean you wouldn't have to go back again. Noel From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 12:38:29 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 13:38:29 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone > at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough > up the info themselves, that might be doable. It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least not in the archives. Maybe in some forgotten closet or abandoned office. -- Will From cube1 at charter.net Sat Mar 30 12:48:26 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 12:48:26 -0500 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/30/2019 12:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Al Kossow > > > Decades later, people are still afraid to release them. I tried to get > > 2065 ALDs from someone that had them and they wouldn't give them to me. > > Sounds like it's time to have someone high up at the CHM talk to someone > at IBM to get an OK; if you only ask for permission, not for IBM to cough > up the info themselves, that might be doable. > > I'd try and get a blanket OK for anything more than 20 years old, i) that > should be long enough that they'd be OK with it, ii) a moving thing like > that would mean you wouldn't have to go back again. > > Noel > My experience with IBM legal (who were actually quite communicative when I approached them) on that front with IBM 1410 manuals suggests to me that they will not ever give explicit permission, because nobody at IBM will ever by confident that they won't end up giving away some trade secret or other. Even when they know the risk is nonexistant, it isn't possible to get anyone to sign off on it. So instead we (meaning the collective community) are left with a situation where IBM's failure to send a cease and desist letter of some sort becomes a kind of tacit permission. I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners would not part with their copies was concern over losing them or concern over their value becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. JRJ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 12:53:29 2019 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 13:53:29 -0400 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: <20190330173511.37FAD18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > My experience with IBM legal (who were actually quite communicative when > I approached them) on that front with IBM 1410 manuals suggests to me > that they will not ever give explicit permission, because nobody at IBM > will ever by confident that they won't end up giving away some trade > secret or other. We (Techworks in Binghamton, NY) work with the archivist quite a bit, and are a=on very good terms. Nope, they simply did not keep much from that era. It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. -- Will From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Mar 30 14:25:12 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 14:25:12 -0500 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted Message-ID: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> I have a PDP-11/23+ and the power supply (H786) "last ran when parked" a year or so ago. But there's no DC output at all today, and the fans are running so there is AC power... I also have the original H7861 that came with it, which had a blown chopper transistor. I couldn't find anything else bad, so I replaced the transistor and within a few seconds of running, it blew again. :( So I need some help - I've never been good at fixing switching supplies, not to mention the high-side hazards. The simplest solution would be just to replace it with a working unit. Anyone got one to sell, hopefully cheap? :) If not, can anyone fix one or both of mine? thanks! Charles From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 15:03:24 2019 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 13:03:24 -0700 Subject: AGC restoration / was Re: PDP-8 signed overflow detection - Apollo guidace computer In-Reply-To: References: <20190326162811.E12CA18C077@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4EE83C28-32DF-4CAF-92BD-AAE14BAA73CC@gmail.com> Yes, that would be Carl?s ?day to day? blog (http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/). He is also on the list, lurking in the background. Carl, are you there? Ken Shirriff has also several deeply researched blog articles on specific AGC topics (righto.com). Mike has some very interesting posts on his AGC FPGA emulation work here: http://mikestewart.hcoop.net/ Marc > On Mar 26, 2019, at 10:43 AM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > On 2019-Mar-26, at 9:28 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> From: Ben Bfranchuk >> >>> Now they seem to have have found a SCRAPPED Apollo guidance >>> computer and am rebuilding the missing pieces. >> >> Wow. What a great site (and that guy has mad skills, everything from >> repairing old Teletypes, through designing boards, to repairing analog >> stuff). Just 'wasted' a good chunk of the morning reading back through >> it; tons of really neat things (including recovery of the very first >> FORTH, along with a lot of Diablo drive - from the Alto - repairs). >> >> As a shortcut, here: >> >> http://rescue1130.blogspot.com/2018/11/ >> >> is the backstory on the AGC; about 1/3 of the way down, in "Restoring an >> Apollo Guidance Computer, part V". > > > > This is the same AGC restoration that curious marc has been making videos about: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KSahAoOLdU > > The project and videos were mentioned on the list back in December. > There's an interview with Jimmie there (4:13) with more details about the backstory. > From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 30 15:26:10 2019 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 15:26:10 -0500 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted In-Reply-To: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> References: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: Hi Charles, The H786 was standard for the 11/23, BA11-N. The H7861 was for the 11/23+, BA11-S and had afrw more amps of +5 volts. I would start by looking at the electronic caps. I have a few extras here but am pretty busy for the next week or so. Paul On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:25 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23+ and the power supply (H786) "last ran when parked" a > year or so ago. But there's no DC output at all today, and the fans are > running so there is AC power... > I also have the original H7861 that came with it, which had a blown > chopper > transistor. I couldn't find anything else bad, so I replaced the > transistor > and within a few seconds of running, it blew again. :( > > So I need some help - I've never been good at fixing switching supplies, > not > to mention the high-side hazards. > The simplest solution would be just to replace it with a working unit. > Anyone got one to sell, hopefully cheap? :) > If not, can anyone fix one or both of mine? > > thanks! > Charles > > > From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Mar 30 18:03:40 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 18:03:40 -0500 Subject: Using PC power supply in BA-11S Message-ID: <401885693BA94C6DAC9EF6FC5619B272@CharlesDellLap> Regarding my earlier request for help repairing an H786 and H7861, it occurred to me that I could instead use a desktop PC power supply, having several in the junkbox. It's even small enough to fit in there once the H786 is removed. So I patched the wiring harness from the PC supply to the screw terminals on the backplane... 5 and 12 volts at the terminals, Fault lights on the RL's went out, but no green light on the KDF-11B. After a look at the schematics, the simple solution was just to pull the power monitor daughter-card from the H786, so the power OK lines (8640 buffer inputs, DC OK and Power OK) are not being pulled down. Green light on, memory test ran, and boots RT-11 from RL02 :) A better fix will be to drive the DCOK and POK lines from the PC supply, which appears to have a "P.G." orange wire (I'm betting "Power Good" but will check it out first). TSX-Plus won't run though, because there's no real-time clock. Looks like a small transformer and a bit of buffer circuitry is needed to generate a 60 Hz TTL pulse. Or a dongle with a 555 or crystal oscillator. I may have a try at fixing the original supply before going to the trouble (including mounting the PC supply in the chassis and jumpering the two ribbon cables together). Speaking of trouble, today I learned that the "Restraining Cable Stud" mentioned in the 11/23 user manual is not just there for decoration. For the first time (ever), the BA-11S chassis overbalanced and fell out of the front of the cabinet. It hit the floor with a crash while yanking all the ribbon cables off (without breaking anything, incredibly, including a near miss to my feet in socks!) Perhaps installing that cable is a good idea ;) -Charles From cube1 at charter.net Sat Mar 30 18:21:09 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 18:21:09 -0500 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted In-Reply-To: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> References: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: On 3/30/2019 2:25 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > I have a PDP-11/23+ and the power supply (H786) "last ran when parked" a > year or so ago. But there's no DC output at all today, and the fans are > running so there is AC power... > I also have the original H7861 that came with it, which had a blown > chopper transistor. I couldn't find anything else bad, so I replaced the > transistor and within a few seconds of running, it blew again. :( > > So I need some help - I've never been good at fixing switching supplies, > not to mention the high-side hazards. > The simplest solution would be just to replace it with a working unit. > Anyone got one to sell, hopefully cheap? :) > If not, can anyone fix one or both of mine? > > thanks! > Charles > Sorry, no spares (and certainly no tested spares. ;) ). My playbook for these sorts of things goes like this. Others will undoubtedly chime in with probably better advice. 1. Is anything obviously burned / overheated / fuses blow? Note those, and what feeds them. 2. Check the semiconductors - often I will lift one leg of a diode or two legs of a transistor to make sure I get a good test. It's a pain, but usually worth it. Sometimes, depending on what the schematic looks like, I'll test without lifting as many / any legs. 3. Specialized regulators / op-amps, etc., require checking their voltage while running. Not usually easy to test them. 4. Check the capacitors, especially input and output for excessive leakage. I often will reform input and output caps just because. Check their ESR, at least with one of the cheap component testers out there. I use one of these for testing, as well as an ohmmeter, etc. https://www.ebay.com/itm/All-in-1-LCR-Component-Tester-Transistor-Diode-CapacitanceESR-Meter-InductanceBH/183706764001 I also use a "Blue ESR Meter" of late, as well: https://anatekinstruments.com/products/anatek-blue-esr-meter-full-kit-for-self-assembly-besr_kit But before I had these, I just used an ohmmeter to test each semiconductor junction, and monitored voltage while reforming capacitors to get an idea of their ESR. From charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net Sat Mar 30 19:50:33 2019 From: charlesmorris800 at centurytel.net (Charles) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 19:50:33 -0500 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted In-Reply-To: References: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <731CADF46A3E4636B758D8E2CFE40F71@CharlesDellLap> Update: I removed the H786 from the chassis, and set it up on the workbench with loads on the +5 and +12. No output. 320V across the half-bridge, but no +12 Startup. Found I had forgotten to put a cliplead to the primary of the startup transformer. Turned it on and it works... 5 and 12 volts into 1 ohm and 4.7 ohm respectively. WTF. So I disconnected the PC supply, put the H786 back in, and it fired right up (including the real-time clock) and I ran it for half an hour. Go figure. Ain?t classic computers fun sometimes... From: Paul Anderson Sent: Saturday, March 30, 2019 3:26 PM To: Charles ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: H786 power supply help wanted Hi Charles, The H786 was standard for the 11/23, BA11-N. The H7861 was for the 11/23+, BA11-S and had afrw more amps of +5 volts. I would start by looking at the electronic caps. I have a few extras here but am pretty busy for the next week or so. Paul On Sat, Mar 30, 2019 at 2:25 PM Charles via cctalk wrote: I have a PDP-11/23+ and the power supply (H786) "last ran when parked" a year or so ago. But there's no DC output at all today, and the fans are running so there is AC power... I also have the original H7861 that came with it, which had a blown chopper transistor. I couldn't find anything else bad, so I replaced the transistor and within a few seconds of running, it blew again. :( So I need some help - I've never been good at fixing switching supplies, not to mention the high-side hazards. The simplest solution would be just to replace it with a working unit. Anyone got one to sell, hopefully cheap? :) If not, can anyone fix one or both of mine? thanks! Charles From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 30 22:47:28 2019 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 30 Mar 2019 22:47:28 -0500 Subject: H786 power supply help wanted In-Reply-To: <731CADF46A3E4636B758D8E2CFE40F71@CharlesDellLap> References: <6134F3EB116C4C4EA72986FC66237CC8@CharlesDellLap> <731CADF46A3E4636B758D8E2CFE40F71@CharlesDellLap> Message-ID: <5CA03850.2080305@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2019 07:50 PM, Charles via cctalk wrote: > Update: I removed the H786 from the chassis, and set it up on the workbench with loads on the +5 and +12. > No output. 320V across the half-bridge, but no +12 Startup. Found I had forgotten to put a cliplead to the primary of the startup transformer. > Turned it on and it works... 5 and 12 volts into 1 ohm and 4.7 ohm respectively. WTF. > > So I disconnected the PC supply, put the H786 back in, and it fired right up (including the real-time clock) and I ran it for half an hour. > Go figure. Ain?t classic computers fun sometimes... > > > Connectors, always flaky connectors! Jon From dfnr2 at yahoo.com Sun Mar 31 03:37:18 2019 From: dfnr2 at yahoo.com (Dave) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 08:37:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> Message-ID: <1268864270.14270038.1554021438681@mail.yahoo.com> You may want to take a look at the byte collection at the internet archive: BYTE Magazine : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive Comparing the first issue side-by-side, I think the Internet Archive version is a different scan.? It is better quality.? The letters have more uniform density than the American Radio History version. Also, they have a page of byte re-scans; I'm not sure what issues are addressed by the rescans. BYTE Magazine Rescans : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive | | | | BYTE Magazine Rescans : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming... Rescans of issues found within the BYTE Magazine collection. Byte magazine was a microcomputer magazine, influen... | | | | | | | BYTE Magazine : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Inter... Byte magazine was a microcomputer magazine, influential in the late 1970s and throughout the 1980s because of it... | | | On Friday, March 29, 2019, 5:57:49 AM CDT, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote: In a previous thread I asked for a couple of specific pages from Byte magazine, which I got (thanks to all, especially Peter, for helping out!)? But that brings up a bigger issue (no pun intended.) About a year ago I found the Byte scans on americanradiohistory.org and started reading from the start.? I found that those scans were less than great, with many missing pages, pages out of order, pages scanned at resolutions too low to read, and a few other problems.? I went searching the web for other scans and, with a few exceptions for individual issues, found that ALL the collections of scans seemed to be the same ones, with the same bad pages. I certainly appreciate the considerable effort of whoever did those scans, but I think Byte is too important to not have good scans available.? Perhaps a project to get those good scans created would be something worthwhile for the members of this list to take on.? I realize what a huge project it is.? Just going through the currently available scans to find which pages are bad or missing is a large and time-consuming effort.? But my opinion is that it is important and worthwhile. Any thoughts? Thanks, Will "He may look dumb but that's just a disguise."? -- Charlie Daniels "The names of global variables should start with? ? // "? --?https://isocpp.org From wrcooke at wrcooke.net Sun Mar 31 08:33:24 2019 From: wrcooke at wrcooke.net (wrcooke at wrcooke.net) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 09:33:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Byte Magazine In-Reply-To: <1268864270.14270038.1554021438681@mail.yahoo.com> References: <1057952561.409496.1553857059225@email.ionos.com> <1268864270.14270038.1554021438681@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <696025476.206325.1554039204933@email.ionos.com> > On March 31, 2019 at 4:37 AM Dave via cctalk wrote: > > > You may want to take a look at the byte collection at the internet archive: BYTE Magazine : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive > Comparing the first issue side-by-side, I think the Internet Archive version is a different scan.? It is better quality.? The letters have more uniform density than the American Radio History version. Also, they have a page of byte re-scans; I'm not sure what issues are addressed by the rescans. BYTE Magazine Rescans : Free Texts : Free Download, Borrow and Streaming : Internet Archive HI Dave, I do believe the main collection of Byte at the Internet Archive is the same scans as American Radio History, although they do appear to have been better processed. But the worst problems, such as missing pages, still exist. However, the rescans are much better from what I have seen. I had found those when searching earlier, but had forgotten about them since the particular page(s) I was looking for (pg 96,97 of Jan 78) wasn't included. The rescans seem to include 42 issues, one of which I had been looking for (Jul 79). Thanks for searching those out and reminding about them.That certainly helps. Will From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Mar 31 10:41:07 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 08:41:07 -0700 Subject: VCF/PNW Exhibit & Trip Report - The Old Calculator Museum In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B76D@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: Hi Rick, I'm glad you enjoyed the event - we aim to please. I should have seen this earlier but I've been avoiding computers this week for reasons you can probably guess. And just for the record, "it takes a village" to make these things happen. I was the very visible face of the event because I did most of the organization work. But the event doesn't happen without the people I snag into volunteering. Corey Cohen and Jeff Brace flew in from New Jersey. Erik Klein and Dwight Elvey drove up from California. Curtis came in on a train from California. And I had a few local people (Gene, Kent, and Kyle.) One of our speakers (Steve) and even our t-shirt guy (Marcus!) pitched in to move tables around and do other grunt work. And the museum was super accommodating ... ---- VCF East planning is well under way now, and VCF West planning will start soon. I'm hoping that Ricks' report inspires others to join us at VCFed events. We'll make it easy for you. :-) From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun Mar 31 10:46:11 2019 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 08:46:11 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2019: Photos and Survey. Please? Message-ID: One last spam from VCF PNW 2019 ... Send us your Photos! We want to put together a shared photo album so that people can see the event from different perspectives. It's a Google Photos album, so if you are a Google Photos user sharing is easy. If you are not a Google Photos user or you have concerns/questions please let me know and I'll work out an alternative. The shared album can be found at: https://photos.app.goo.gl/e2rzk4iT4aHrQUoy6 Help us make VCF events better! If you were at the event last weekend I have a quick survey that I'd like you to fill out. The survey will help us shape future events. The survey is anonymous; we are not collecting email addresses unless you want to get a chance at a free t-shirt. (And even then, we are only using the email address for that single purpose.) The survey link is: https://goo.gl/forms/V3DiyxwkpbIOCKn73 Direct feedback by email also works well. Thanks, Mike michael at vcfed.org or mbbrutman at brutman.com From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 14:42:25 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:42:25 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? Message-ID: Hey all, I'm writing a blog post about this IBM 6360 disk controller I want to build: https://www.andersknelson.com/blog/?p=601 I've read through the service manuals and other docs on Bitsavers but I can't seem to find a deeper explanation on the protocol that runs over the DB-37 cable. I suppose I could bypass the controller inside the drive cabinet and directly control the drives but I bet it'll be easier/better to use as much of the electronics as possible. Can anyone help with the protocol? Thanks! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Mar 31 14:50:21 2019 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 19:50:21 +0000 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: It's been a fun journey but I finally have 2.11 BSD (Patchlevel 431) running on my real 11/93. On to the next challenges. Does anyone know which serial device I should configure for in order to get the other serial lines working? Everything I read says they are DL lines and calls the builtin controller a DLV22. There is no such device in the 2.11 config. Any suggestions? Also having trouble with the ethernet. It won't come up. Are there network modules that do not work under 2.11? Any chance that any of this will be fixed if I go ahead and patch it up to 450? I was holding out doing the additional patching until I had everything running but maybe because the 11/93 was the last PDP-11 made maybe there is stuff in there that was added later. I plan to go at it slowly as I had a lot of patches that failed when I was doing this on a simulator but I want to try and get all of them to work on this system. At least I now have a real PDP-11 with a TMSCP tape working so I can try making some real tapes for other things. I have four PDP-11s set up right now with various configurations. I hope to have all of them running something before I am done. bill From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 14:53:13 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 15:53:13 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Also I should note that I live in NYC, so if anyone around these parts has a working Displaywriter I am willing to drive a bit and bring my portable logic analyzer with me to capture traffic along the data connector. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 3:42 PM Anders Nelson wrote: > Hey all, > > I'm writing a blog post about this IBM 6360 disk controller I want to > build: > > https://www.andersknelson.com/blog/?p=601 > > I've read through the service manuals and other docs on Bitsavers but I > can't seem to find a deeper explanation on the protocol that runs over the > DB-37 cable. > > I suppose I could bypass the controller inside the drive cabinet and > directly control the drives but I bet it'll be easier/better to use as much > of the electronics as possible. > > Can anyone help with the protocol? > > Thanks! > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 31 15:14:10 2019 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 13:14:10 -0700 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 3/31/19 12:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I've read through the service manuals and other docs on Bitsavers but I > can't seem to find a deeper explanation on the protocol that runs over the > DB-37 cable. Have you looked at the displaywriter MAME driver? The floppy uses an NEC 765 disk controller From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 15:29:53 2019 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 13:29:53 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:50 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > It's been a fun journey but I finally have 2.11 BSD (Patchlevel 431) > running on my real 11/93. > > On to the next challenges. > > Does anyone know which serial device I should configure for in order > to get the other serial lines working? Everything I read says they > are DL lines and calls the builtin controller a DLV22. There is no > such device in the 2.11 config. Any suggestions? > I believe the console plus the seven additional serial lines show up as individual DL11 units; these are configured via the NKL parameter in your kernel configuration. Set it to 8 and see what happens... > > Also having trouble with the ethernet. It won't come up. Are there > network modules that do not work under 2.11? > Can you elaborate as to what you're doing here (what hardware, how you're bringing it up, etc) and what errors you're getting or what behavior you're seeing? > > Any chance that any of this will be fixed if I go ahead and patch it > up to 450? I was holding out doing the additional patching until I > had everything running but maybe because the 11/93 was the last PDP-11 > made maybe there is stuff in there that was added later. > > I plan to go at it slowly as I had a lot of patches that failed when > I was doing this on a simulator but I want to try and get all of them > to work on this system. > It can't hurt anything, but my guess is that it's unlikely to solve your networking issues. - Josh > > At least I now have a real PDP-11 with a TMSCP tape working so I can > try making some real tapes for other things. I have four PDP-11s > set up right now with various configurations. I hope to have all of > them running something before I am done. > bill > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 15:39:57 2019 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 13:39:57 -0700 Subject: 2.11 BSD on an 11/93 with an CMD SCSI Module In-Reply-To: References: <52057c1e-a4d1-ba80-52c8-35099f941988@bitsavers.org> <20190326235436.7BBE0179BF0@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 31, 2019 at 12:50 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > It's been a fun journey but I finally have 2.11 BSD (Patchlevel 431) > running on my real 11/93. > > On to the next challenges. > > Does anyone know which serial device I should configure for in order > to get the other serial lines working? Everything I read says they > are DL lines and calls the builtin controller a DLV22. There is no > such device in the 2.11 config. Any suggestions? > In the configuration you should change the NKL definition from 1 to 8 and then rebuild the kernel to use all 8 DL lines of the KDJ11-E src/sys/conf/GENERIC: ######################################### # PERIPHERALS: TERMINALS # ######################################### # NKL includes both KL11's and DL11's. # It should always be at least 1, for the console. NKL 1 # KL11, DL11 Then in /etc/dtab add separate entries for each of the additional DL lines. # If you have DL11s, you must give each line an explicit unit number instead # of using a '?' as above. If you use a '?', autoconfig(8) will start # assigning unit numbers starting at 0 which will effectively move your # console to that first line. Start your unit numbers with '1'. # # cn 1 176500 300 5 cnrint cnxint # kl/dl-11 (on mvx11-aa) For reference the DL handler source code is here: src/sys/pdp/cons.h src/sys/pdp/cons.c From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Mar 31 16:08:33 2019 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 17:08:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? Message-ID: <20190331210833.C661A18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Donzelli > It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least > not in the archives. ... they simply did not keep much from that era. > It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. Which emphasizes that it's important to make the point to IBM that we wouldn't be asking for IBM to supply the information; rather, this is about being able to reproduce info that IBM itself may no longer have. Is anyone up for tackling IBM? If so, and we need support, I can ask my Master, Jerry Saltzer, if anyone he knew at IBM is still there - he used to have a lot of influence inside IBM (he's the person who got FS killed, I was informed). But that was a long time ago... > From: Jay Jaeger > I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners > would not part with their copies was ... concern over their value > becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. One easy way to test that is to have Al ask the person with the ALD's if they'd be OK with having that stuff scanned if we got an OK from IBM. Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Mar 31 17:03:12 2019 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 18:03:12 -0400 Subject: IBM 6360 - interface help? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Al, I haven't looked at the MAME stuff but if it uses an NEC 765 then it probably won't be the same. The signal list is quite a bit different, e.g. only 5 non-contiguous address bits are used. Real weird. I'll take a look all the same. =] On Sun, Mar 31, 2019, 4:30 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > > On 3/31/19 12:42 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > I've read through the service manuals and other docs on Bitsavers but I > > can't seem to find a deeper explanation on the protocol that runs over > the > > DB-37 cable. > > Have you looked at the displaywriter MAME driver? > > The floppy uses an NEC 765 disk controller > > > > From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Mar 31 17:24:02 2019 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2019 00:24:02 +0200 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 28/03/2019 17:46, Ken Shirriff via cctech wrote: > I'm writing a S/360 Model 50 emulator that runs at the microcode level, in > order to drive a Model 50 front panel accurately. I'm about 80% of the way > there, but there are some microcode operations that I haven't figured out. > So I figured I'd ask if anyone has obscure Model 50 manuals that aren't on > bitsavers, or perhaps even the ALDs. > > I was surprised at how extremely different the microcode is from the 360 > instruction set. I've figured out a bunch of the strange > micro-instructions, such as S47?E, which ORs the emit field into flags 4 > through 7. But there are many micro-instructions that still puzzle me, > like F?FPSL4 which maybe a floating point shift left 4 and 1?BS*MB which > does something with byte stats. So if anyone happens to have a Model 50 > microcode programming manual sitting around, please let me know :-) > > Thanks, > Ken Welcome to the club! Do you only have the manuals from Bitsavers? So CLDs but no ALDs. Yes, something that does a FP shift-left-4 will be related to the IBM FP format normalisation and it should be possible to work out exactly what from the context. It may do other odd things and not just what the operation mnemonic shows, e.g shift left 4 + increment exponent + set flag on overflow, or perhaps the opposite to de-normalise for addition/subtraction (see CPL 115.) You could also look through the diagnostic sections to see if the operation is used in there - this may well give exercise special cases of the operation and confirm exactly how it is meant to work. I had a problem with the 2030 ALDs and CLDs not being the same version (I think the microcode/CLD was newer) and this meant it would not work with the circuitry I had. I can't remember the differences, I think an extra diagnostic latch or two, but once the diagnostics passed I was confident they were correct. Is there anything new at http://www.ibm360.info/ for you? -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From cube1 at charter.net Sun Mar 31 22:23:18 2019 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2019 22:23:18 -0500 Subject: IBM 360 Model 50 information? In-Reply-To: <20190331210833.C661A18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20190331210833.C661A18C0C6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/31/2019 4:08 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: William Donzelli > > > It is very likely IBM does not have the information anymore - at least > > not in the archives. ... they simply did not keep much from that era. > > It was probably disposed of back when IBM was in trouble 30 years ago. > > Which emphasizes that it's important to make the point to IBM that we > wouldn't be asking for IBM to supply the information; rather, this is about > being able to reproduce info that IBM itself may no longer have. > Been there, done that. Came to a dead end after about a year of emails and even a phone call or two. > Is anyone up for tackling IBM? If so, and we need support, I can ask my > Master, Jerry Saltzer, if anyone he knew at IBM is still there - he used to > have a lot of influence inside IBM (he's the person who got FS killed, I was > informed). But that was a long time ago... > > > From: Jay Jaeger > > > I suspect, but do not know of course, that the reasons that the owners > > would not part with their copies was ... concern over their value > > becoming diminished by having scanned copies around. > > One easy way to test that is to have Al ask the person with the ALD's if > they'd be OK with having that stuff scanned if we got an OK from IBM. > > Noel > Based on my experience, they will not ever give such an OK.