From emu at e-bbes.com Tue May 1 00:00:51 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 07:00:51 +0200 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0ee9c4d8-a6e1-a10e-78ef-95b0e90aa96c@e-bbes.com> On 2018-05-01 04:54, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So someone mentioned this to me: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 > it is a "desktop system" ;-) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 00:12:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2018 22:12:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <0ee9c4d8-a6e1-a10e-78ef-95b0e90aa96c@e-bbes.com> References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <0ee9c4d8-a6e1-a10e-78ef-95b0e90aa96c@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: >> So someone mentioned this to me: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 > it is a "desktop system" ;-) Not just a "desktop", it is a "PC Desktops & All In Ones" You can't find stuff on eBay if you are looking in the wrong category :-) From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue May 1 04:01:56 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 02:01:56 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C3599B4-1C88-46D6-9858-0DE6393044F2@gmail.com> And as Glen figured out, I am very interested in this too! I didn't even know such a card existed. If they have the schematics in the manual (likely), I can recreate the card. Marc On Apr 30, 2018, at 7:40 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: I don't see a manual for the HP 12661A DVS (Digital Voltage Source) interface card on bitsavers, or hpmuseum.net, or anywhere else. The only reference I have found is in a list of not scanned manuals here: http://rikers.org/hp2100/jeff/iocards/iocards2.txt ---------- 12661 DIG VOLT SOURCE ---------- MANUAL FOR DIGITAL VOLTAGE SOURCE PROGRAMMER INTERFACE KIT HP 12661A MANUAL NO. 12661-90004 APRIL 1971 [Cards #12661-6001 and 12661-6002, connector 02116-6178] This is the interface card that would be used in an HP 1000 to control an HP 6130A Digital Voltage Source. See Hewlett-Packard Journal, June 1968. There is the 14902A BCS driver as listed in 5950-9226_HP_Software_Catalog_Aug1973.pdf Source code for that driver is available as 14902-80001_Rev-A.src in the bitsavers HP_1000_software_collection Master Files, Type 4. Mainly just curious because I have a couple of HP 12661A interface cards without manuals that I have never tried to use and I was reminded about them when an HP 6130A made a brief appearance in Marc's latest Weird Stuff video. From trash80 at internode.on.net Tue May 1 05:10:45 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 20:10:45 +1000 Subject: Last of the TRS-80's Message-ID: <05b401d3e134$ac1b36d0$0451a470$@internode.on.net> Hi folks - hope there's a history buff out there that can help me please. Google has not been my friend or I'm just searching wrong. I am trying to ascertain what the last computer released by Tandy/Radio Shack was that had the TRS-80 name on it (as opposed to later machines that used the name Tandy). I think it was the CoCo 3 in 1986 but I'm trying to nail down the (official) day and month of release (assuming that I'm right and it was the CoCo 3). Thank you!! Kevin Parker From pete at pski.net Tue May 1 06:11:05 2018 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 07:11:05 -0400 Subject: Last of the TRS-80's In-Reply-To: <05b401d3e134$ac1b36d0$0451a470$@internode.on.net> References: <05b401d3e134$ac1b36d0$0451a470$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <6C09995C-9F75-43B0-8D5A-071A4283D2B9@pski.net> > I am trying to ascertain what the last computer released by Tandy/Radio Shack was that had the TRS-80 name on it > > I think it was the CoCo 3 in 1986 > > Kevin Parker The CoCo 3 was Tandy badged and never had TRS-80 nomenclature. I believe the honor of last TRS-80 labeled computer falls on Tandy Radio Shack?s first PC clone attempt, the TRS-80 Model 2000 released in 1983, shortly after the Z80 based Model 4 and MC68000 based 16B in the same year. From oltmansg at gmail.com Tue May 1 07:46:06 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 07:46:06 -0500 Subject: Last of the TRS-80's In-Reply-To: <6C09995C-9F75-43B0-8D5A-071A4283D2B9@pski.net> References: <05b401d3e134$ac1b36d0$0451a470$@internode.on.net> <6C09995C-9F75-43B0-8D5A-071A4283D2B9@pski.net> Message-ID: On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 6:11 AM, Peter Cetinski via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I am trying to ascertain what the last computer released by Tandy/Radio > Shack was that had the TRS-80 name on it > > > > I think it was the CoCo 3 in 1986 > > > > Kevin Parker > > The CoCo 3 was Tandy badged and never had TRS-80 nomenclature. I believe > the honor of last TRS-80 labeled computer falls on Tandy Radio Shack?s > first PC clone attempt, the TRS-80 Model 2000 released in 1983, shortly > after the Z80 based Model 4 and MC68000 based 16B in the same year. The TRS-80 Model 100 was also in 1983. From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 1 08:24:13 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 06:24:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last of the TRS-80's In-Reply-To: <6C09995C-9F75-43B0-8D5A-071A4283D2B9@pski.net> from Peter Cetinski via cctalk at "May 1, 18 07:11:05 am" Message-ID: <201805011324.w41DODop9961618@floodgap.com> > The CoCo 3 was Tandy badged and never had TRS-80 nomenclature. > I believe the honor of last TRS-80 labeled computer falls on Tandy Radio > Shack's first PC clone attempt, the TRS-80 Model 2000 released in 1983, > shortly after the Z80 based Model 4 and MC68000 based 16B in the same year. Might also be the Pocket Computer PC-3 (26-3590). This was also 1983. The revamped 26-3589 with increased memory came out in 1984, and was simply badged Tandy, so that appears to be the year the shift occurred. These were both rebadged Sharp PC-125x series pocket computers, see http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/138.html for pictures and history. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- When relatives are outlawed, only outlaws will have inlaws. ---------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 1 08:30:19 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 06:30:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last of the TRS-80's In-Reply-To: <201805011324.w41DODop9961618@floodgap.com> from Cameron Kaiser via cctalk at "May 1, 18 06:24:13 am" Message-ID: <201805011330.w41DUJIw15270138@floodgap.com> > > The CoCo 3 was Tandy badged and never had TRS-80 nomenclature. > > I believe the honor of last TRS-80 labeled computer falls on Tandy Radio > > Shack's first PC clone attempt, the TRS-80 Model 2000 released in 1983, > > shortly after the Z80 based Model 4 and MC68000 based 16B in the same year. > > Might also be the Pocket Computer PC-3 (26-3590). This was also 1983. The > revamped 26-3589 with increased memory came out in 1984, and was simply badged > Tandy, so that appears to be the year the shift occurred. These were both > rebadged Sharp PC-125x series pocket computers, see > > http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/138.html > > for pictures and history. And now that I think about it, add the 1983 PC-4 (26-3650/26-3650A) to that list, which was also upgraded and re-released sans TRS-80 in 1985 (26-3650B). http://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/tpm/4567.html -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Murphy's Law is recursive. Washing your car to make it rain doesn't work. -- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 08:44:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 09:44:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501134434.4FAC218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: W2HX > I filter on category "Computers/tablets & Networking." It might not have > shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing" > category. Oh, I forgot to mention: I always search in 'All Categories' precisely to avoid misfiled entries (like this one). (For a while it was defaulting to "Vintage Computing" for the "PDP-11" and "DEC Digital" searches, which I had to manually reset to 'All Categories'.) But that's not it: go into the eBait search, enter "PDP-11", and select 'Sold Items", it's not there; add "parts" to the search, and up it pops! WTF?!?!? Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 1 09:29:31 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 09:29:31 -0500 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501134434.4FAC218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501134434.4FAC218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5AE879CB.20706@cimmeri.com> It could possibly be the "-" sign. I use that to exclude tokens from a search. So "pdp -parts" should list all pdp items that are NOT parts. - J. On 5/1/2018 8:44 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: W2HX > > > I filter on category "Computers/tablets& Networking." It might not have > > shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing" > > category. > > Oh, I forgot to mention: I always search in 'All Categories' precisely to > avoid misfiled entries (like this one). (For a while it was defaulting to > "Vintage Computing" for the "PDP-11" and "DEC Digital" searches, which I had > to manually reset to 'All Categories'.) > > But that's not it: go into the eBait search, enter "PDP-11", and select 'Sold > Items", it's not there; add "parts" to the search, and up it pops! WTF?!?!? > > Noel > > From imp at bsdimp.com Tue May 1 09:37:33 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 08:37:33 -0600 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <5AE879CB.20706@cimmeri.com> References: <20180501134434.4FAC218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5AE879CB.20706@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 8:29 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote: > > It could possibly be the "-" sign. I use that to exclude tokens from a > search. > > So "pdp -parts" should list all pdp items that are NOT parts. > Yes. One of my searches is: dec rainbow -spinner -flower -seeds -spiner -pillow -rose -decals -adhd Warner > - J. > > On 5/1/2018 8:44 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> > From: W2HX >> >> > I filter on category "Computers/tablets& Networking." It might >> not have >> > shown up in your search if you searching in "Vintage Computing" >> > category. >> >> Oh, I forgot to mention: I always search in 'All Categories' precisely to >> avoid misfiled entries (like this one). (For a while it was defaulting to >> "Vintage Computing" for the "PDP-11" and "DEC Digital" searches, which I >> had >> to manually reset to 'All Categories'.) >> >> But that's not it: go into the eBait search, enter "PDP-11", and select >> 'Sold >> Items", it's not there; add "parts" to the search, and up it pops! >> WTF?!?!? >> >> Noel >> >> >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 10:19:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 11:19:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501151905.B691818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Come on people, please i) try doing some actual research to see if theories hold water, don't just quickly post, and ii) read prior posts thoroughly. Searching for "pdp-11" (where the "'s are to indicate what's in the search box, and are _not_ typed into the search box) turns up a host of items - all PDP-11, and none PDP-8, so it's not searching for "PDP -11". And as I have pointed out several times already, searching for "PDP-11 parts" in sold items turns it up, despite there being a "-" in the middle of a search term). Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 1 10:46:39 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 16:46:39 +0100 Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: <02b101d3e163$988289a0$c9879ce0$@ntlworld.com> I bid on something, 1 hour later I got this: Due to eBay reporting the highest bidder as a spammer this item is now available at your last bid price of xxxxx. If you would like to purchase it please arrange payment and collection. If you're not interested I would appreciate a quick message as there is another person who is interested if the item is still available. For security, please keep all communication through the eBay message system. And then an hour or so later I got: Hi (Again) eBay playing strange games removing item after sending second chance offer!! I've been advised by eBay to re-send this as they removed the item because I didn't cancel the transaction from the original suspicious buyer that they had already cancelled the bids from and sent a MC067 notice. Can you believe it??? So sorry for the duplication, but this is a genuine second chance offer. If you are interested (or not), please let me know either way as I have another person interested, but thought it only fair to give you first refusal. Feedback is 100% on 56 items. I am not good at understanding all the possible scams, and I know others here are. Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 11:00:00 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 12:00:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Rob Jarratt > I got this: > ... > For security, please keep all communication through the eBay message > system. Well, that bit sounds positive. And the feedback sounds good, but 56 items is a bit low - I've heard of scams where people do a number of small items to build up a feedback, then 'cash in'. Overall - I dunno. I'd try asking eBay - 'I've gotten a slightly odd second-chance offer from this person. Is this legit?'. Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 1 11:19:03 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 11:19:03 -0500 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501151905.B691818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501151905.B691818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5AE89377.2030203@cimmeri.com> On 5/1/2018 10:19 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Come on people, please i) try doing some actual research to see if theories > hold water, don't just quickly post, and ii) read prior posts thoroughly. This is your thing to research. Please take suggestions for what they are. > Searching for "pdp-11" (where the "'s are to indicate what's in the search > box, and are _not_ typed into the search box) turns up a host of items - all > PDP-11, and none PDP-8, so it's not searching for "PDP -11". Good to know -- thanks. > And as I have pointed out several times already, searching for "PDP-11 parts" > in sold items turns it up, despite there being a "-" in the middle of a search > term). Then, overall - I dunno. To take a suggestion from your playbook, I'd try asking eBay - - 'I'm getting incorrect search results. Why?' - J. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue May 1 11:20:55 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 09:20:55 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: How bad do you want the item? If you can live without it message the seller through eBay and offer him the real winning price. Basically on second chance he is offering you your highest bid price (the one that lost out to the original bad bidder). What it should really be is if that guy didn't exist what would have been the winning bid?? So say three of you guys bid as follows:A: 201 (bad bidder)B: 200 (you)C: 102 (some other guy) Seller is offering you 200 as second chance but the real winning bid is 104.50. Of course if you really want/need the item then you are SOL. One note there is one special ahole out there based in Italy but sells with listing listed in Europe and Alaska. Has a number of handles (scroogemcduckbonaparte, dagobertduckbonaparte, paperonebonaparte, amongst others). He is a pure scamming thief and does shill bid. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 11:26:13 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 12:26:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501162613.39BCC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: js > To take a suggestion from your playbook, I'd try asking eBay - 'I'm > getting incorrect search results. Why?' Yeah, that would be something to try, but I was wary of stirring up trouble - eBay might decide to void the sale, etc. Maybe I should. My message to this list was as much a warning, as it was a query if anyone had any idea why this was happening, or if they'd seen similar behaviour before. Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue May 1 11:41:34 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 11:41:34 -0500 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501162613.39BCC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501162613.39BCC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5AE898BE.5080202@cimmeri.com> On 5/1/2018 11:26 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: js > > > To take a suggestion from your playbook, I'd try asking eBay - 'I'm > > getting incorrect search results. Why?' > > Yeah, that would be something to try, but I was wary of stirring up trouble - > eBay might decide to void the sale, etc. Maybe I should. > > My message to this list was as much a warning, as it was a query if anyone > had any idea why this was happening, or if they'd seen similar behaviour > before. I've seen similar behavior before, and other search problems. At one point in time, eBay's search engine worked just fine. Then, a number of years ago, they revised their -- supposedly making it 'smarter' -- and ever since then, it hasn't worked as well -- for me at least. It seems more akin to Amazon's search engine... where no matter how specific you try to get, it lists everything remotely related. - J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 11:51:54 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 09:51:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Last of the TRS-80's In-Reply-To: <201805011324.w41DODop9961618@floodgap.com> References: <201805011324.w41DODop9961618@floodgap.com> Message-ID: And, in the other direction, I'm not aware of any of their non-TRS80 computers prior to the Tandy 10 (before the TRS80 Model 2?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 12:10:43 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 10:10:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Check the bidding history. 1) Is the cancelled high bid absurdly high? Is it from a low/no feedback? (eBay no longer lets you know other bidders identities) It is not uncommon for a shill to place a single VERY high bid, in order to reveal the full amount of the highest bid. Another use for a shill is to bid credible bids to auction-up the price. That sometimes backfires when the highest legit bidder gives up, and the shill ends up winning. 2) How far below yours is the next one below yours? (Is "and somebody else is interested" credible? or is that just to push you into a quick decision?) Cancelled because he is a "SPAMMER" is not credible reason. "scammer" might be, although certainly seller's wording, not the wording that eBay would use. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 12:28:48 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 13:28:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: <20180501172848.2125918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ali > the real winning price. Basically on second chance he is offering you > your highest bid price (the one that lost out to the original bad > bidder). What it should really be is if that guy didn't exist what > would have been the winning bid? Good point. That _is_ a bad sign. The seller might not have thought it through (they do after all only have a feedback of 50, so they don't have that much experience), and maybe they just made a mistake. But it might be a scammer/shill who used a high shill bid to find out your top. (And maybe the 'only use eBait comms' thing was just a double bank shot to take in people like me...'he says that so he must be honest'). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 12:52:46 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 13:52:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501175246.74F3318C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: js > I've seen similar behavior before, and other search problems. At one > point in time, eBay's search engine worked just fine. Then, a number of > years ago, they revised their - supposedly making it 'smarter' - and > ever since then, it hasn't worked as well That's troubling. I wonder if there are any heuristics one/we can apply to work around this failure? We can't really add a zillion different words ('parts', etc) to searches in an attempt to work around this bug. I'd previously noticed that searches for 'pdp-11' turned up things with 'pdp11' in the title, so they apparently internally drop the '-'. (Google does a similar thing.) I just tried, and searching for '"pdp-11"' (i.e. exact multi-word match, which I use for '"Digital Equipment"') still turns up 'pdp11' items. Case ('PDP-11' versus 'pdp-11') doesn't seem to matter either. On a whim, I tried searching for '"pdp-11" "pdp-11"' (i.e. just repeated the keyword), and this time it _did_ turn it up! Very odd. I wonder why that made a difference? Well, I guess I'll just have to add that to my list of searches. Until the next one... Interestingly, this does blow up one theory that I had about what caused the failure. I had assumed they have lots of threaded lists, with e.g. all 'foo' items on a list from a 'foo' header, and when given a search for 'foo bar' they'd just go to the 'foo' list and run down it looking for items with 'bar'. So my theory was that there'd been an error, and the item in question never made it onto the 'pdp11' list; the 'pdp-11 parts' search found it via the 'parts' list. But I have no potential explanation at all how '"pdp-11" "pdp-11"' found it! FWIW, 'pdp11 pdp11' worked too. Bizarre. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 12:53:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 10:53:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501162613.39BCC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501162613.39BCC18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2018, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > My message to this list was as much a warning, as it was a query if anyone > had any idea why this was happening, or if they'd seen similar behaviour > before. There are several parts of the eBay search system that are broken. I have had items show up that absolutely did NOT match my search, and items fail to show up that definitely DID match. Adding additional OR'ed terms (eBay does OR with comma delimited list in parentheses) sometimes results in FEWER hits, when that SHOULD always give more hits (not all of which are relevant, of course). There is no valid situation where an additional OR'ed term should reduce recall. The change of category is reprehensible. It is an incompetent attempt to increase PRECISION at the expense of RECALL. (cf. Buckland,Grey http://www.academia.edu/11944516/The_Relationship_between_Recall_and_Precision My claim to fame is pointing out that when looking at the limits, that all four sides of that parallelogram need to be noticed.) But sometimes RECALL IS your primary concern. (cf. trademark search, or rare eBay items) You may tolerate some false hits to get ALL of the hits. If I'm looking for a red Swingline stapler, I want PRECISION. If I'm looking for a side-swivel-head stapler for saddle stitching booklets, I want RECALL. Quick example: there are a number of other items named "Nextec", other than Craftsman cordless tools. But a search for "Nextec" in "All categories" automagically changes to "Power Tools", excluding the others (cellphone accessories, lasers, technical equipment, line of clothing,...) Even the [RARE] Craftsman Nextec cordless power pole pruner is usually not listed in the "Power Tools" section. I am looking for one of those; I do NOT want it excluded. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue May 1 13:04:58 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 18:04:58 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <20180501172848.2125918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501172848.2125918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I never take second chance bids, even on items I really want. In most cases, the seller put the item up again. I do not bid on that item again. I bid once at the beginning to show interest but with a minimal bid. I bid as late as I feel practical with my real bid. Also, be careful, second chance bids have to go through ebay, not directly to the seller. I've had shill bids on a $9 item. The reason I know is because the bid went to $6 over my bid and then a third bid I didn't get to see ( it seems ebay removes withdrawn bids ). Two weeks later the seller put the same item up for sale. Early in my ebay days, I bid higher on an item than I expected anyone to bid. The item was then bid up by another bidder. I was informed by the seller that I could buy the item at my high bid as a second chance. I came back with a compromise amount. They told me that I was required to pay my high bid. So, I decided to look at other auctions by this seller ( this was went you could still do some research into things). I found that there were two different ( in name only ) bidders that bid on almost every item that seller had. This seller sold everything except kitchen sinks. I turned them into ebay but ebay told me that my method of detecting shill bidders was not as good as their computer monitoring method. Ha! Then why was this going on for such a long time? One can not do that level of checking anymore. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 1, 2018 10:28:48 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Is This A Shill? > From: Ali > the real winning price. Basically on second chance he is offering you > your highest bid price (the one that lost out to the original bad > bidder). What it should really be is if that guy didn't exist what > would have been the winning bid? Good point. That _is_ a bad sign. The seller might not have thought it through (they do after all only have a feedback of 50, so they don't have that much experience), and maybe they just made a mistake. But it might be a scammer/shill who used a high shill bid to find out your top. (And maybe the 'only use eBait comms' thing was just a double bank shot to take in people like me...'he says that so he must be honest'). Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 13:08:37 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 11:08:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501175246.74F3318C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501175246.74F3318C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2018, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I'd previously noticed that searches for 'pdp-11' turned up things with > 'pdp11' in the title, so they apparently internally drop the '-'. (Google > does a similar thing.) I just tried, and searching for '"pdp-11"' (i.e. exact > multi-word match, which I use for '"Digital Equipment"') still turns up > 'pdp11' items. Case ('PDP-11' versus 'pdp-11') doesn't seem to matter > either. hyphen "-" seems to do three different things in eBay search system: 1) as a literal character, where there IS a hyphen in the term (which might simply always be ignored) 2) as a negation ("minus sign" V "hyphen"), to mean exclude, but only when delimited (following a space) Do some current computer character sets have discrete hyphen and minus-sign? 2) as a marker for consecutive terms, ignoring intervening space DEC-RAINBOW is the same to eBay as: "DEC RAINBOW" /* quotation marks actually in search term */ DEC RAINBOW DECRAINBOW but NOT the same as: RAINBOW DEC DEC COMPUTER RAINBOW So, PDP-11 "should" match: PDP11 PDP 11 PDP-11 From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue May 1 13:25:47 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 11:25:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501172848.2125918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: One simple technique: ShillA bids a ridiculously high bid. That advances the auction to one increment past your highest. That ridiculously high bid is withdrawn. ShillB, now knowing your high bid, bids one increment or less below your high bid. You "win" at your high bid. ShillA and ShillB could be the same person. If the current bids are in the $200s, if the ridiculously high bid has an extra zero at the end, eBay is likley to believe that $2400 was a MISTAKE, and was intended to be $240. The other common technique: ShillA simply bids competitive bids. If ShillA accidentally wins, then the bid is withdrawn, as a "mistake", and the seller offers you the item "second chance" for your now-revealed high bid, instead of the highest that it had gotten to before ShillA's "mistake". From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 1 13:44:40 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 14:44:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay search fail Message-ID: <20180501184440.5F05218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > Adding additional OR'ed terms (eBay does OR with comma delimited list > in parentheses) sometimes results in FEWER hits, when that SHOULD > always give more hits A similar one is that adding more terms (i.e. AND) sometimes turns up things that didn't turn up before. I guess this 'PDP-11 parts' failure is an example of that. > The change of category is reprehensible. Yeah, it was pretty irritating - I just happened to notice it by chance, and then for a long time had to manually re-search. It seems to have gone away (at least on 'pdp-11') in the last few days, though? Oh, and the corollary (which people with brains faster than mine probably already realized :-): if you list something (epecially expensive!), wait a bit and do a search on the obvious terms that people are likely to use - if it doesn't turn up, cancel and try again (maybe with a slightly different title). Noel From jdbryan at acm.org Tue May 1 13:51:03 2018 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 01 May 2018 14:51:03 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> References: , <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:22, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > If it doesn't turn up in what I have, I'll check with Jeff to see if he > still has it. If I'm not imposing, could you also please ask him for: OPERATING AND SERVICE MANUAL 12653A LINE PRINTER INTERFACE KIT FOR 2767A LINE PRINTER MANUAL NO. 12653-90002 [1 copy OCT 1970] [1 copy MAR 1973] [Card #12653-60002, cable #12653-60001] ...in the same "orange file box" as the 12661 manual? Thanks. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 1 15:43:40 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 13:43:40 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: OK, looks like it's time to give him a call.. On 5/1/18 11:51 AM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: > On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:22, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > >> If it doesn't turn up in what I have, I'll check with Jeff to see if he >> still has it. > > If I'm not imposing, could you also please ask him for: > > OPERATING AND SERVICE MANUAL > 12653A LINE PRINTER INTERFACE KIT > FOR 2767A LINE PRINTER > MANUAL NO. 12653-90002 > [1 copy OCT 1970] > [1 copy MAR 1973] > [Card #12653-60002, cable #12653-60001] > > ...in the same "orange file box" as the 12661 manual? Thanks. > > -- Dave > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue May 1 15:57:02 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 21:57:02 +0100 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> I'd look at the bid history if I could, but I don't seem to be able to see it at all. It looks as if the item has been set as a Buy It Now at my top price, even if I use a different browser so it doesn't know it is me looking at the item, I just see a buy in now and no bid history. I am not too fussed about the item, even though the actual amount is quite small, it is more the principle that makes me inclined not to buy it. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > via cctalk > Sent: 01 May 2018 18:11 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Is This A Shill? > > Check the bidding history. > > 1) Is the cancelled high bid absurdly high? > Is it from a low/no feedback? (eBay no longer lets you know other bidders > identities) > > It is not uncommon for a shill to place a single VERY high bid, in order to > reveal the full amount of the highest bid. > > Another use for a shill is to bid credible bids to auction-up the price. > That sometimes backfires when the highest legit bidder gives up, and the > shill ends up winning. > > > 2) How far below yours is the next one below yours? (Is "and somebody > else is interested" credible? or is that just to push you into a quick > decision?) > > > Cancelled because he is a "SPAMMER" is not credible reason. "scammer" > might be, although certainly seller's wording, not the wording that eBay > would use. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue May 1 17:06:34 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 22:06:34 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Personally, I find all of this hilarious.? ebay has been shady for as long as I have watched it.? I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" years ago. Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a dollar.? Without a neutral auctioneer the whole system bogus. Now, if I see a buy it now and I think the price is reasonable I buy it.? When I bid on an auction I know going in that I am not going to win so all I really seem to do is drive the price up for someone else.? And I really no? longer care. bill From hagstrom at bu.edu Tue May 1 17:20:12 2018 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 22:20:12 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> > On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Personally, I find all of this hilarious. ebay has been shady for as long > > as I have watched it. I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" years ago. > > Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that > > way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a > > dollar. That's just the way eBay works. You'll win anyway if your bid is higher than the other person's snipe. eBay auto-bids only whatever it takes to beat you, so one increment higher. You'll notice that if you bid $1000 on something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this as a bid of $10, and the time runs out with no other bids, you pay $10. And if someone else bids $20, they lose to your new automatically placed bid of $21. I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding calls attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up even if your top snipe bid would beat them. But this is just basically how the eBay game is played. I used to snipe by hand, now I usually let a bot do it. It bids in the last couple of seconds, so it can look just like what you describe. Sniping wouldn't work if auctions didn't have a hard end time, but since they do, that's how it works and they state it all quite clearly. Maybe sometime something shady happens though I've yet to see any convincing evidence of it myself (only people claiming it happens all the time, all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. -Paul From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue May 1 17:34:30 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 1 May 2018 19:34:30 -0300 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-05-01 7:20 PM, Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk wrote: >> On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Personally, I find all of this hilarious. ebay has been shady for as long >> >> as I have watched it. I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" years ago. >> >> Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that >> >> way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a >> >> dollar. > That's just the way eBay works. You'll win anyway if your bid is higher than the other person's snipe. eBay auto-bids only whatever it takes to beat you, so one increment higher. You'll notice that if you bid $1000 on something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this as a bid of $10, and the time runs out with no other bids, you pay $10. And if someone else bids $20, they lose to your new automatically placed bid of $21. > > I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding calls attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up even if your top snipe bid would beat them. But this is just basically how the eBay game is played. I used to snipe by hand, now I usually let a bot do it. It bids in the last couple of seconds, so it can look just like what you describe. Sniping wouldn't work if auctions didn't have a hard end time, but since they do, that's how it works and they state it all quite clearly. Maybe sometime something shady happens though I've yet to see any convincing evidence of it myself (only people claiming it happens all the time, all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. > > -Paul > ?I still snipe by hand but that is just a personal decision.? If I win something by sniping it is either because I want it more than other people bidding or other people bidding have not bid what they are willing to pay, and from watching auctions in the dying moments I think the later is often the case as people frantically raise their bids. Paul. From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed May 2 10:06:10 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:06:10 -0500 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Personally, I find all of this hilarious. ebay has been shady for as > long > > > > as I have watched it. I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" years > ago. > > > > Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that > > > > way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a > > > > dollar. > > That's just the way eBay works. You'll win anyway if your bid is higher > than the other person's snipe. eBay auto-bids only whatever it takes to > beat you, so one increment higher. You'll notice that if you bid $1000 on > something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this as a bid of $10, and > the time runs out with no other bids, you pay $10. And if someone else > bids $20, they lose to your new automatically placed bid of $21. > > I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding calls > attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up even if your > top snipe bid would beat them. But this is just basically how the eBay > game is played. I used to snipe by hand, now I usually let a bot do it. > It bids in the last couple of seconds, so it can look just like what you > describe. Sniping wouldn't work if auctions didn't have a hard end time, > but since they do, that's how it works and they state it all quite > clearly. Maybe sometime something shady happens though I've yet to see any > convincing evidence of it myself (only people claiming it happens all the > time, all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. > > -Paul > When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality works. I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids in between them. -- Eric Christopherson From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 2 10:22:28 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 08:22:28 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> On 05/02/2018 08:06 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid > functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? > > I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality works. > I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, > which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids in > between them. When you submit a bit do eBay using the traditional method, your bid is really a proxy bid--it's increased by specified increments until it's outbid by another bidder. If you prevail, you win by the minimum winning proxy bid. For example, I was looking for a cheap HDMI cable. There were a few available for a starting bid of $0.50. I submitted a bit for $1.00 and won with a final price of $0.69. Sniping simply reduced the amount of time that a competing bidder has to submit a bid when he discovers that he's being outbid. There's nothing unethical about it--auctions end at a specified time and you get your bid in at the last possible moment. There's software for this, but since I'm an original member of the eSnipe service, I use them and haven't paid them a fee for years, since bids under a certain amount aren't assessed for a commission. Later subscribers don't have the same deal, I believe. When I'm interested in something small, I'll submit a snipe bid for what I'm willing to pay and then forget about it. If I win, great, if not, no bother. One thing that many eBay subscribers overlook is the "Make offer" feature of some auctions. In my opinion, that's where the real gold can be. If the BIN price looks too high and you really want an item, make an offer. You never know--the seller just may be want to be rid of the thing and will take any offer. FWIW, Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Wed May 2 10:34:17 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 15:34:17 +0000 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> > On May 2, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/02/2018 08:06 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > >> When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid >> functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? >> >> I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality works. >> I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, >> which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids in >> between them. > > When you submit a bit do eBay using the traditional method, your bid is > really a proxy bid--it's increased by specified increments until it's > outbid by another bidder. If you prevail, you win by the minimum > winning proxy bid. ?. If the successive bids are at a constant ratio (is it still 5%?) that is eBay making public higher and higher portions of the not-to-exceed (but still private) value that person originally entered. The other possibility is that the original bidder, on being outbid, lets their competitive instincts get the better of them and enters a higher not-to-exceed bid ? and then a higher one ? if the successive bids have a minute or two between them, or a non-constant ratio, that is likely what is happening, and it?s a *great* reason shills exist in the first place. I think the original intent of the eBay system, and my recommendation, is that folks dispassionately, calmly, decide what their true ceiling is, enter that value the first time, and then walk away. eBay doesn?t promote that behavior now, though. The ?you?ve been outbid! But there?s still a chance!? email they send seems pretty calculated to stampede you into competitive behavior. I suspect that leads to regrets. - Mark From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 2 10:42:15 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:42:15 -0600 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On May 2, 2018, at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 05/02/2018 08:06 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > > >> When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's > highest-bid > >> functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? > >> > >> I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality > works. > >> I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, > >> which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's > bids in > >> between them. > > > > When you submit a bit do eBay using the traditional method, your bid is > > really a proxy bid--it's increased by specified increments until it's > > outbid by another bidder. If you prevail, you win by the minimum > > winning proxy bid. > ?. > > If the successive bids are at a constant ratio (is it still 5%?) that is > eBay making public higher and higher portions of the not-to-exceed (but > still private) value that person originally entered. > > The other possibility is that the original bidder, on being outbid, lets > their competitive instincts get the better of them and enters a higher > not-to-exceed bid ? and then a higher one ? > > if the successive bids have a minute or two between them, or a > non-constant ratio, that is likely what is happening, and it?s a *great* > reason shills exist in the first place. I think the original intent of the > eBay system, and my recommendation, is that folks dispassionately, calmly, > decide what their true ceiling is, enter that value the first time, and > then walk away. eBay doesn?t promote that behavior now, though. The ?you?ve > been outbid! But there?s still a chance!? email they send seems pretty > calculated to stampede you into competitive behavior. I suspect that leads > to regrets. > Yes. It drives more traffic to the site. It's really gamification of the process, which sucks for the bidders (they bid more than they should). In the ideal world, you set a price you're willing to pay, pay a trusted third party to place that bid in the closing minutes of an auction. It limits the amount of information that you give to ebay and/or the seller. The only time there's an issue is if there's another bidder whose top bit is exactly the same as yours and they bid first. It's a pretty small benefit from bidding first vs the tendency for others to bid if they see your bid early.... Last second bids also limit the window in which someone else can game your vote, and wondering if someone is shilling you or not... Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 10:52:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 08:52:16 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: <02372788-3eb0-1313-eea3-c75870910cbd@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/18 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > One thing that many eBay subscribers overlook is the "Make offer" > feature of some auctions. In my opinion, that's where the real gold can > be. Yup, in both directions. People seem completely clueless about what a reasonable offer is, on both sides. The cheapest listings are BIN, and are very efficient at getting rid of things. To put it bluntly, I list high and expect reasonable offers, which rarely happen. Sometimes I guess low on the BIN price. If there are an insane number of views and no one bites, I RAISE the price. Eventually, someone buys it. If something isn't moving, I kill the listing, lower the price, and relist. There are no cost to do this. I see a few people abuse this, relisting every couple of days to keep their junk in the new listings. In my opinion, eBay's fixed-period auctions are a waste of time. From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Wed May 2 10:58:09 2018 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:58:09 -0500 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 05/02/2018 08:06 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > > When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid > > functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? > > > > I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality > works. > > I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, > > which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids > in > > between them. > > When you submit a bit do eBay using the traditional method, your bid is > really a proxy bid--it's increased by specified increments until it's > outbid by another bidder. If you prevail, you win by the minimum > winning proxy bid. > > For example, I was looking for a cheap HDMI cable. There were a few > available for a starting bid of $0.50. I submitted a bit for $1.00 and > won with a final price of $0.69. > > Sniping simply reduced the amount of time that a competing bidder has to > submit a bid when he discovers that he's being outbid. There's nothing > unethical about it--auctions end at a specified time and you get your > bid in at the last possible moment. > > There's software for this, but since I'm an original member of the > eSnipe service, I use them and haven't paid them a fee for years, since > bids under a certain amount aren't assessed for a commission. Later > subscribers don't have the same deal, I believe. > > When I'm interested in something small, I'll submit a snipe bid for what > I'm willing to pay and then forget about it. If I win, great, if not, > no bother. > > One thing that many eBay subscribers overlook is the "Make offer" > feature of some auctions. In my opinion, that's where the real gold can > be. If the BIN price looks too high and you really want an item, make > an offer. You never know--the seller just may be want to be rid of the > thing and will take any offer. > > > FWIW, > Chuck > > Chuck makes a good point about the Make-Offer feature, and it should be noted that sellers have this option available to them within the eBay messenger system even if the button isn't present in the auction, so if you have your eye on something and feel the price is too high (or your search of completed auctions shows the item has been relisted several times with no takers), there's no harm in sending the seller a message with a dollar amount in mind. -C From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 2 11:08:00 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:08:00 -0700 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> Message-ID: <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> On 05/02/2018 08:42 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Yes. It drives more traffic to the site. It's really gamification of the > process, which sucks for the bidders (they bid more than they should). In > the ideal world, you set a price you're willing to pay, pay a trusted third > party to place that bid in the closing minutes of an auction. It limits the > amount of information that you give to ebay and/or the seller. The only > time there's an issue is if there's another bidder whose top bit is exactly > the same as yours and they bid first. It's a pretty small benefit from > bidding first vs the tendency for others to bid if they see your bid > early.... Last second bids also limit the window in which someone else can > game your vote, and wondering if someone is shilling you or not... As much as I've heard against the eBay system, there were many worse. Consider that if all bidders (and this seems to be true on certain eBay areas) snipe, it's little different from a standard sealed-bid auction. You bid your maximum and go away. Although eBay in the past has tried to kill off sniping because it reduces the number of visits an individual might pay to their site, I think they've given up with trying to kill the sniping system. Yahoo! auctions were terrible--absolutely rife with outright shilling. Probably one of the reasons that they no longer exist. OnSale was my favorite site for computer gear, but it didn't survive the eBay onslaught. For musical gear, one of the lesser-known sites was DigiBid (I still have a t-shirt from them). Because it didn't see much traffic, you could get some very decent deals on used items. Ubid and RedTag are still around, mostly offering marked-down overstock. I haven't bought anything from them in years. --Chuck From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed May 2 11:20:36 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:20:36 -0700 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> Message-ID: On May 2, 2018, at 09:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Although eBay in the past has tried to kill off sniping because it > reduces the number of visits an individual might pay to their site, I > think they've given up with trying to kill the sniping system. If eBay really wanted to kill sniping and maximize winning bids, I think they could simply change the format from fixed ending time to automatically extending the auction period N minutes past the last bid. There would still be some benefit to a bidder for bidding late and hoping nobody notices, but there would always be a window of up to N minutes for other bidders to decide to increase their losing bid. It would end up as a a hybrid of proxy bid + live auction. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed May 2 04:10:09 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:10:09 +0100 (BST) Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 1 May 2018, Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk wrote: >> On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> Personally, I find all of this hilarious. ebay has been shady for as long >> >> as I have watched it. I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" years ago. >> >> Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that >> >> way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a >> >> dollar. > > That's just the way eBay works. You'll win anyway if your bid is higher > than the other person's snipe. eBay auto-bids only whatever it takes to > beat you, so one increment higher. You'll notice that if you bid $1000 > on something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this as a bid of $10, > and the time runs out with no other bids, you pay $10. And if someone > else bids $20, they lose to your new automatically placed bid of $21. > > I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding calls > attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up even if your > top snipe bid would beat them. But this is just basically how the eBay > game is played. I used to snipe by hand, now I usually let a bot do it. > It bids in the last couple of seconds, so it can look just like what you > describe. Sniping wouldn't work if auctions didn't have a hard end > time, but since they do, that's how it works and they state it all quite > clearly. Maybe sometime something shady happens though I've yet to see > any convincing evidence of it myself (only people claiming it happens > all the time, all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. This. I use a program called esniper - sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, but when I lose thats OK, because the item sold for more than I was willing to pay. Recently however I was unable to use esniper (ebay changed something that broke it) so put in my max. bid the old fashioned way. I was winning for a day or so. Then something very odd happened: very close to the end of the auction a brand new bidder came in and bid 100x the going rate - that immediately maxed out my bid - however the seller more or less immediately cancelled their bid. They waited 10 minutes then did it again, and again the seller cancelled their bid. My guess is that they wanted to see if I'd upped my bid. Then a sniper came in and bid more than me at the last minute. I did feel cheated there though and will never bid on items from that seller again because I felt they somehow had a hand in this bidding but I can't prove it, but then again, it's a sellers market and ebay don't care because they get money from the sale anyway. Due to the speed the bid was cancelled I'm more or less convinced it was the seller doing this and not the winning bidder, however it did let the winner see my max. bid so may have influenced them. Who knows. So snipe, "by hand" or with a program and if everyone does it, then it becomes the same as blind auction then it becomes fair again. Until the seller withdraws the auction 5 minutes before the end because "the listing was incorrect", and re-lists it, trying to get more. -Gordon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 2 11:34:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:34:01 -0700 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> Message-ID: <97ec401a-ffef-0de0-8ff1-25fc153697e3@bitsavers.org> On 5/2/18 9:20 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > change the format from fixed ending time to automatically extending the auction period N minutes past the last bid. Ain't gonna happen. Other sites tried it, and failed because auctions would literally drag on for hours with penny bids. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 2 11:34:41 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 12:34:41 -0400 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <02372788-3eb0-1313-eea3-c75870910cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <16321b4b383-c92-33b65@webjas-vaa058.srv.aolmail.net> Another nice? feature of the offers is? you can let them? come in and choose the highest and best? use? for where the item goes... ? In a message dated 5/2/2018 8:51:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 5/2/18 8:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > One thing that many eBay subscribers overlook is the "Make offer" > feature of some auctions. In my opinion, that's where the real gold can > be. Yup, in both directions. People seem completely clueless about what a reasonable offer is, on both sides. The cheapest listings are BIN, and are very efficient at getting rid of things. To put it bluntly, I list high and expect reasonable offers, which rarely happen. Sometimes I guess low on the BIN price. If there are an insane number of views and no one bites, I RAISE the price. Eventually, someone buys it. If something isn't moving, I kill the listing, lower the price, and relist. There are no cost to do this. I see a few people abuse this, relisting every couple of days to keep their junk in the new listings. In my opinion, eBay's fixed-period auctions are a waste of time. From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 2 11:50:32 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:50:32 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9E1D93D9-4C87-4E7D-AAD2-17B75BF9949A@snowmoose.com> > On May 2, 2018, at 8:58 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 10:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On 05/02/2018 08:06 AM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid >>> functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? >>> >>> I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality >> works. >>> I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, >>> which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids >> in >>> between them. >> >> When you submit a bit do eBay using the traditional method, your bid is >> really a proxy bid--it's increased by specified increments until it's >> outbid by another bidder. If you prevail, you win by the minimum >> winning proxy bid. >> >> For example, I was looking for a cheap HDMI cable. There were a few >> available for a starting bid of $0.50. I submitted a bit for $1.00 and >> won with a final price of $0.69. >> >> Sniping simply reduced the amount of time that a competing bidder has to >> submit a bid when he discovers that he's being outbid. There's nothing >> unethical about it--auctions end at a specified time and you get your >> bid in at the last possible moment. >> >> There's software for this, but since I'm an original member of the >> eSnipe service, I use them and haven't paid them a fee for years, since >> bids under a certain amount aren't assessed for a commission. Later >> subscribers don't have the same deal, I believe. >> >> When I'm interested in something small, I'll submit a snipe bid for what >> I'm willing to pay and then forget about it. If I win, great, if not, >> no bother. >> >> One thing that many eBay subscribers overlook is the "Make offer" >> feature of some auctions. In my opinion, that's where the real gold can >> be. If the BIN price looks too high and you really want an item, make >> an offer. You never know--the seller just may be want to be rid of the >> thing and will take any offer. >> >> >> FWIW, >> Chuck >> >> > Chuck makes a good point about the Make-Offer feature, and it should be > noted that sellers have this option available to them within the eBay > messenger system even if the button isn't present in the auction, so if you > have your eye on something and feel the price is too high (or your search > of completed auctions shows the item has been relisted several times with > no takers), there's no harm in sending the seller a message with a dollar > amount in mind. -C YMMV. There is a type of system that I am interested in adding to my collection. An eBay seller has a bunch in a number of BIN/Make Offer auctions over months. I asked an expert on the systems his opinion on the auctions, including what he would offer. I offer 50% more, but it was still 2/3rd the BIN price. They countered by taking a bit over 10% off. I countered by splitting the difference but they didn?t go for it. The auction closed and I looked at the auction history. I saw that the systems had previously been offered at a price less than my split-the-difference offer. When they came back up for auction again, I offered the split-the-difference price and noted that the lower price in a previous ?no-takers? auction run. They countered with a higher price than their counter to my initial offer. They went unsold again and I waited for the next auction run. I offered the split-the-difference price again and they countered even higher. I got the message and have stopped bidding. That was a couple months ago and they still have sold any of those systems. alan From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 2 11:55:36 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:55:36 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <9E1D93D9-4C87-4E7D-AAD2-17B75BF9949A@snowmoose.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <9E1D93D9-4C87-4E7D-AAD2-17B75BF9949A@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: > On May 2, 2018, at 9:50 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On May 2, 2018, at 8:58 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >> [snip] >> Chuck makes a good point about the Make-Offer feature, and it should be >> noted that sellers have this option available to them within the eBay >> messenger system even if the button isn't present in the auction, so if you >> have your eye on something and feel the price is too high (or your search >> of completed auctions shows the item has been relisted several times with >> no takers), there's no harm in sending the seller a message with a dollar >> amount in mind. -C > > YMMV. There is a type of system that I am interested in adding to my collection. An eBay seller has a bunch in a number of BIN/Make Offer auctions over months. I asked an expert on the systems his opinion on the auctions, including what he would offer. I offer 50% more, but it was still 2/3rd the BIN price. They countered by taking a bit over 10% off. I countered by splitting the difference but they didn?t go for it. The auction closed and I looked at the auction history. I saw that the systems had previously been offered at a price less than my split-the-difference offer. When they came back up for auction again, I offered the split-the-difference price and noted that the lower price in a previous ?no-takers? auction run. They countered with a higher price than their counter to my initial offer. They went unsold again and I waited for the next auction run. I offered the split-the-difference price again and they countered even higher. I got the message and have stopped bidding. That was a couple months ago and they still have sold any of those systems. > I?ve also found that if a seller has a number of the same item for sale, I?ll offer to take the entire lot at a significant discount. A number of the sellers will go for that (e.g. they can unload all of the items in one transaction). TTFN - Guy From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 2 11:59:40 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 09:59:40 -0700 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> Message-ID: <625E8573-D22F-490B-98E8-33DA653A7D76@snowmoose.com> > On May 2, 2018, at 9:20 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 2, 2018, at 09:08, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> Although eBay in the past has tried to kill off sniping because it >> reduces the number of visits an individual might pay to their site, I >> think they've given up with trying to kill the sniping system. > > If eBay really wanted to kill sniping and maximize winning bids, I think they could simply change the format from fixed ending time to automatically extending the auction period N minutes past the last bid. There would still be some benefit to a bidder for bidding late and hoping nobody notices, but there would always be a window of up to N minutes for other bidders to decide to increase their losing bid. It would end up as a a hybrid of proxy bid + live auction. That is what the classic car auctions on Bring-A-Trailer do. Within 2 min of auction close time and thereafter, each bid extends the time 2 minutes. I was high bidder on a car at $15k with 30 seconds to go. The price went up $10k (and someone else got the car) in the 15 min after the scheduled close time. alan > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 2 12:02:46 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:02:46 -0700 Subject: (OT) Re: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <97ec401a-ffef-0de0-8ff1-25fc153697e3@bitsavers.org> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <08800EB7-13E7-4896-8246-BCEB0D05B094@swri.edu> <5bd7e449-122e-315a-a1e5-b8f73a0da172@sydex.com> <97ec401a-ffef-0de0-8ff1-25fc153697e3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <9F313921-9166-427F-8475-1BA343F8A7A3@snowmoose.com> > On May 2, 2018, at 9:34 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > >> On 5/2/18 9:20 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> change the format from fixed ending time to automatically extending the auction period N minutes past the last bid. > Ain't gonna happen. > Other sites tried it, and failed because auctions would literally drag on for hours with penny bids. > Not with minimum bid increments. alan > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 2 12:06:19 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 10:06:19 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <02372788-3eb0-1313-eea3-c75870910cbd@bitsavers.org> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <02372788-3eb0-1313-eea3-c75870910cbd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > To put it bluntly, I list high and expect reasonable > offers, which rarely happen. You never know what a box of magic Steve Jobs floppies is worth until you list them for $666. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 2 13:02:27 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 14:02:27 -0400 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Apr 29, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > ... > It's not cheap (and IIRC you have to use the whole lot in one go), but > Chemtronics make a kit to repair such keypads. Possibly worth it for > a useful instrument though. > > In the UK you can get it here : > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conductive-adhesives/3888673/ > > and I guess it's also available across the Pond. > > -tony It is, and for less money. The various electronic and industrial supply outlets carry it, for example Newark, Digikey, and MSC Direct. Digikey sells it for $23, that's significantly better than 23 pounds... The Aquadag approach looks interesting, but that may not be as reliable. That seems to be a conductive coating intended for rigid objects like CRTs, as opposed to a substance intended to repair rubber keypads. So if my graphite cure doesn't last, it sounds like the Chemtronics products is the next answer. Thanks! paul From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed May 2 13:34:52 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 15:34:52 -0300 Subject: Restoring rubber keyboard on a logic analyzer In-Reply-To: References: <01QRRUZRVEEY000OOC@beyondthepale.ie> <0c4c01d3dd7c$33239710$996ac530$@com> <10ECF701-85E7-4E9F-838E-771795DAF3C3@comcast.net> Message-ID: http://tabalabs.com.br/videogames/atari/controle_5200/ - that is how I solved this problem 2018-05-02 15:02 GMT-03:00 Paul Koning via cctalk : > > > > On Apr 29, 2018, at 11:44 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ... > > It's not cheap (and IIRC you have to use the whole lot in one go), but > > Chemtronics make a kit to repair such keypads. Possibly worth it for > > a useful instrument though. > > > > In the UK you can get it here : > > > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/conductive-adhesives/3888673/ > > > > and I guess it's also available across the Pond. > > > > -tony > > It is, and for less money. The various electronic and industrial supply > outlets carry it, for example Newark, Digikey, and MSC Direct. Digikey > sells it for $23, that's significantly better than 23 pounds... > > The Aquadag approach looks interesting, but that may not be as reliable. > That seems to be a conductive coating intended for rigid objects like CRTs, > as opposed to a substance intended to repair rubber keypads. > > So if my graphite cure doesn't last, it sounds like the Chemtronics > products is the next answer. > > Thanks! > > paul > > From g-wright at att.net Wed May 2 13:56:42 2018 From: g-wright at att.net (Jerry Wright) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 18:56:42 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Looking for TI 990/12 hardware reference manual ???? References: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831@mail.yahoo.com> I have a later TI 990/12 system with a dead power supply. Looking drawings or schematics andI believe there in the hardware reference manual.? The one manual on bitsavers? under 990/10shows a older type of power supply.? Mine is basically? all on 1 board.? The chassis is a 990 A13 Thanks, Jerry From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 2 14:56:23 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 19:56:23 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: On 05/02/2018 05:10 AM, Gordon Henderson via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 1 May 2018, Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk wrote: > >>> On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk >>> wrote: >>> >>> Personally, I find all of this hilarious.? ebay has been shady for >>> as long >>> >>> as I have watched it.? I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" >>> years ago. >>> >>> Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay that >>> >>> way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a >>> >>> dollar. >> >> That's just the way eBay works.? You'll win anyway if your bid is >> higher than the other person's snipe.? eBay auto-bids only whatever >> it takes to beat you, so one increment higher.? You'll notice that if >> you bid $1000 on something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this >> as a bid of $10, and the time runs out with no other bids, you pay >> $10.? And if someone else bids $20, they lose to your new >> automatically placed bid of $21. >> >> I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding >> calls attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up >> even if your top snipe bid would beat them.? But this is just >> basically how the eBay game is played.? I used to snipe by hand, now >> I usually let a bot do it. It bids in the last couple of seconds, so >> it can look just like what you describe. Sniping wouldn't work if >> auctions didn't have a hard end time, but since they do, that's how >> it works and they state it all quite clearly.? Maybe sometime >> something shady happens though I've yet to see any convincing >> evidence of it myself (only people claiming it happens all the time, >> all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. > > This. > > I use a program called esniper - sometimes I win, sometimes I lose, > but when I lose thats OK, because the item sold for more than I was > willing to pay. > > Recently however I was unable to use esniper (ebay changed something > that broke it) so put in my max. bid the old fashioned way. I was > winning for a day or so. > > Then something very odd happened: very close to the end of the auction > a brand new bidder came in and bid 100x the going rate - that > immediately maxed out my bid - however the seller more or less > immediately cancelled their bid. They waited 10 minutes then did it > again, and again the seller cancelled their bid. My guess is that they > wanted to see if I'd upped my bid. Then a sniper came in and bid more > than me at the last minute. I did feel cheated there though and will > never bid on items from that seller again because I felt they somehow > had a hand in this bidding but I can't prove it, but then again, it's > a sellers market and ebay don't care because they get money from the > sale anyway. > > Due to the speed the bid was cancelled I'm more or less convinced it > was the seller doing this and not the winning bidder, however it did > let the winner see my max. bid so may have influenced them. Who knows. > > So snipe, "by hand" or with a program and if everyone does it, then it > becomes the same as blind auction then it becomes fair again. > > Until the seller withdraws the auction 5 minutes before the end > because "the listing was incorrect", and re-lists it, trying to get more. > I don't like real auctions.? I think it is a stupid way to sell things.? I certainly wouldn't agree that this further abomination of the concept is of an value whatsoever.? If one has something to sell one should offer it at the price they think it is worth.? If someone agrees you have a deal.? If no one agrees the seller needs to decided if it is worth lowering the price.? That's business.? Can you imagine of all business was done the eBay way?? Your house? Your car?? Your food?? Scary.... bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 2 15:01:20 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 20:01:20 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 05/02/2018 11:22 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Sniping simply reduced the amount of time that a competing bidder has to > submit a bid when he discovers that he's being outbid. There's nothing > unethical about it-- And that is a matter of opinion. bill From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 2 15:37:50 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 13:37:50 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 05/02/2018 01:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > And that is a matter of opinion. I've been subscribed to eBay since 1998, when the best I could do for a net connection was a somewhat iffy 9600 bps. At that speed and high latency, there was no way to engage in a last-minute bidding war against those with T1 hookups. So now I have a machine act in my place with its own high-speed service. Be grateful for small things--eSnipe normally submits bids 6 seconds before auction close, so those with Wall-Street type hookups have thousands of milliseconds to sneak in a last bid. If you want to do away with sniping, suggest a way to equalize the odds, such as a 5 built-in 5 minute delay in bidding--or going with a single sealed bid option. Then get eBay to adopt it. eBay auctions are time-limited, so timing is part of the game. You really can't fault someone who takes advantage of any more than you can fault someone for bidding higher than you. --Chuck From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 2 15:47:56 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 16:47:56 -0400 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6FE25B9E08784416A13AAC3D1F2E63CE@teoPC> I have never had a program to snipe for me, but I like the idea of others sniping since it saves me money not being tempted to outbid somebody else before the auction ends. I bid low and if I win good, otherwise I wait for the item to come around again. People can get emotional and do bidding wars either in person or using a 3rd party app and a large bid. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 2 15:53:23 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 20:53:23 +0000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 05/02/2018 04:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 05/02/2018 01:01 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> And that is a matter of opinion. > I've been subscribed to eBay since 1998, when the best I could do for a > net connection was a somewhat iffy 9600 bps. At that speed and high > latency, there was no way to engage in a last-minute bidding war against > those with T1 hookups. > > So now I have a machine act in my place with its own high-speed service. > > Be grateful for small things--eSnipe normally submits bids 6 seconds > before auction close, so those with Wall-Street type hookups have > thousands of milliseconds to sneak in a last bid. > > If you want to do away with sniping, suggest a way to equalize the odds, > such as a 5 built-in 5 minute delay in bidding--or going with a single > sealed bid option. Then get eBay to adopt it. Or, do as I have and don't play the game at all.? :-) bill From trash80 at internode.on.net Wed May 2 16:27:58 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 07:27:58 +1000 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> Message-ID: <081901d3e25c$7191b740$54b525c0$@internode.on.net> >>>> Or do you use third-party software? I use Hammersnipe - I set the maximum I'm prepared to pay and walk away. If I win it good, if I don?t then that's OK too. Kevin Parker -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Eric Christopherson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, 3 May 2018 01:06 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Is This A Shill? On Tue, May 1, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Hagstrom, Paul via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 1, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Personally, I find all of this hilarious. ebay has been shady for > > as > long > > > > as I have watched it. I gave up seriously bidding on "auctions" > > years > ago. > > > > Seems every time I bid and ended out the top bidder it would stay > > that > > > > way till the auction ended and then suddenly someone beat me by a > > > > dollar. > > That's just the way eBay works. You'll win anyway if your bid is > higher than the other person's snipe. eBay auto-bids only whatever it > takes to beat you, so one increment higher. You'll notice that if you > bid $1000 on something with a $10 opening bid, eBay displays this as a > bid of $10, and the time runs out with no other bids, you pay $10. > And if someone else bids $20, they lose to your new automatically placed bid of $21. > > I don't think there's any advantage to not sniping, since bidding > calls attention to a thing and does encourage people to bid it up even > if your top snipe bid would beat them. But this is just basically how > the eBay game is played. I used to snipe by hand, now I usually let a bot do it. > It bids in the last couple of seconds, so it can look just like what > you describe. Sniping wouldn't work if auctions didn't have a hard > end time, but since they do, that's how it works and they state it all > quite clearly. Maybe sometime something shady happens though I've yet > to see any convincing evidence of it myself (only people claiming it > happens all the time, all the time), but sniping is not itself shady. > > -Paul > When you say you snipe with a bot, do you mean you use eBay's highest-bid functionality to do it? Or do you use third-party software? I've never been clear on how the built-in highest-bid functionality works. I often see things where the same person has several consecutive bids, which doesn't make any sense to me in the absence of other people's bids in between them. -- Eric Christopherson From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 2 19:20:51 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 17:20:51 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: References: <20180501160000.CF38418C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <031001d3e18e$f4bb7d50$de3277f0$@ntlworld.com> <2B2CD80A-DD2B-4307-8BE2-FD40A4BA367D@bu.edu> <2461e62a-d013-f9c1-79d8-9579bf961797@sydex.com> <9E1D93D9-4C87-4E7D-AAD2-17B75BF9949A@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 5/2/18 9:55 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> On May 2, 2018, at 9:50 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> >>> On May 2, 2018, at 8:58 AM, Cory Heisterkamp via cctalk wrote: >>> > [snip] > >>> Chuck makes a good point about the Make-Offer feature, and it should be >>> noted that sellers have this option available to them within the eBay >>> messenger system even if the button isn't present in the auction, so if you >>> have your eye on something and feel the price is too high (or your search >>> of completed auctions shows the item has been relisted several times with >>> no takers), there's no harm in sending the seller a message with a dollar >>> amount in mind. -C >> YMMV. There is a type of system that I am interested in adding to my collection. An eBay seller has a bunch in a number of BIN/Make Offer auctions over months. I asked an expert on the systems his opinion on the auctions, including what he would offer. I offer 50% more, but it was still 2/3rd the BIN price. They countered by taking a bit over 10% off. I countered by splitting the difference but they didn?t go for it. The auction closed and I looked at the auction history. I saw that the systems had previously been offered at a price less than my split-the-difference offer. When they came back up for auction again, I offered the split-the-difference price and noted that the lower price in a previous ?no-takers? auction run. They countered with a higher price than their counter to my initial offer. They went unsold again and I waited for the next auction run. I offered the split-the-difference price again and they countered even higher. I got the message and have stopped bidding. That was a couple months ago and they still have sold any of those systems. In case it wasn't clear from the context, I meant to write "still have **not** sold any". >> > I?ve also found that if a seller has a number of the same item for sale, I?ll offer to take the entire lot at a significant discount. A number of the sellers will go for that (e.g. they can unload all of the items in one transaction). I am still passing through the systems that came from Pete :) Actually, I only have two of them left ... alan > > TTFN - Guy > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 2 20:36:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 21:36:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: <20180503013625.6FA0F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Alan Perry > They went unsold again and I waited for the next auction run. I offered > the split-the-difference price again and they countered even higher. I > got the message and have stopped bidding. That was a couple months ago > and they still have sold any of those systems. Eventually they may wise up. I had a guy selling a group of 4 DEC drives, asking for somewhat over the going rate. I pointed the guy at a prior 'open bidding' sale for one, demonstrating the 'fair market value', and offered him 4 times that, plus shipping. He comes back with a much higher number. So I waited a year, they were still there, now he was more willing to be reasonable. So I suggest waiting for a couple more months and write him a 'I see it's been X months, my offer of Y is still open' note. Noel From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed May 2 22:12:45 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 2 May 2018 20:12:45 -0700 Subject: Is This A Shill? In-Reply-To: <20180503013625.6FA0F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180503013625.6FA0F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <001c01d3e28c$9bdc20f0$d39462d0$@net> > Eventually they may wise up. I had a guy selling a group of 4 DEC .... > So I suggest waiting for a couple more months and write him a 'I see > it's > been X months, my offer of Y is still open' note. > > Noel That all depends: There is a guy with a listing with missing parts which he is advertising as working. It has been listed for over two years now with no movement. I offered to buy a part off of it for ~half of what he wanted for everything and he replied that "the value was in keeping it all together". Some sellers are just too dense to grab a good opportunity when it presents itself! -Ali From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu May 3 05:28:40 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 06:28:40 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Is This A Shill? Message-ID: <20180503102840.4E6D818C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ali > There is a guy with a listing with missing parts which he is > advertising as working. It has been listed for over two years now ... > I offered to buy a part off of it for ~half of what he wanted > for everything and he replied that "the value was in keeping it all together". Well, since he's not an expert (which we can deduce from his calling it 'working' when it's missing bits), perhaps he feared you were trying to grab the 'good bit', and leave him with un-salable dreck. Although given the amount you were willing to pay, maybe he is not thinking hard! Noel From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Thu May 3 12:33:07 2018 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:33:07 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI 990/12 hardware reference manual ???? In-Reply-To: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831@mail.yahoo.com> References: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <910753862.3444515.1525287402831@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20180503133307.55ff26c9@crucible> On Wed, 2 May 2018 18:56:42 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > I have a later TI 990/12 system with a dead power supply. Looking > drawings or schematics andI believe there in the hardware reference > manual.? The one manual on bitsavers? under 990/10shows a older type > of power supply.? Mine is basically? all on 1 board.? The chassis is > a 990 A13 > > Thanks, Jerry > I have a 990 hardware manual here that I haven't scanned in yet. It's in storage right now, I don't have a scanner set up at the moment, and I can't remember off-hand whether it has /12 schematics, but it's monstrous and has lots of schematic foldouts. I'll see if I can find it this weekend and let you know about the latter. I would think, though, that the PSU is covered. The A13 chassis was used in other 990's. I have a /10 setup in one. Been decades since it was powered up, though. later, jbdigriz From sales at elecplus.com Thu May 3 12:48:15 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 12:48:15 -0500 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap Message-ID: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. Click on the item and see the discounted price. Free shipping over $15. Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mikelee at tdh.com Thu May 3 13:17:54 2018 From: mikelee at tdh.com (Michael Lee) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:17:54 -0500 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> Caution to anyone looking at this site, at a quick glance it appears to be a scam site, just using ebay items and descriptions for product info. On 5/3/2018 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ > > Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. > > Click on the item and see the discounted price. > > Free shipping over $15. > > > > Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From silent700 at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:18:49 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:18:49 -0500 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ > > Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. > > Click on the item and see the discounted price. I smell an unfresh fish here. Most of the items on the site are just ebay listings, but much cheaper. Not sure how they're operating but there's likely a scam at play somewhere. -j From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:25:19 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 14:25:19 -0400 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:18 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk > wrote: >> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ >> >> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. >> >> Click on the item and see the discounted price. > > I smell an unfresh fish here. Most of the items on the site are just > ebay listings, but much cheaper. Not sure how they're operating but > there's likely a scam at play somewhere. I find it quite odd that everything I looked at was posted between $140 and $150... -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 3 13:26:56 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 14:26:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> Message-ID: I was about to say something similar. Those items have been on Ebay for years, some of them still up for auction, such as this: https://www.ebay.com/itm/192514501391?ViewItem=&item=192514501391 The pictures are the same (what few of them actually display), and the pries are nowhere close On Thu, 3 May 2018, Michael Lee via cctalk wrote: > Caution to anyone looking at this site, at a quick glance it appears to be a > scam site, just using ebay items and descriptions for product info. > > > On 5/3/2018 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ >> >> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. >> >> Click on the item and see the discounted price. >> >> Free shipping over $15. >> >> >> >> Not affiliated with seller, etc. >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> >> 1613 Water Street >> >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> >> 830-370-3239 cell >> >> sales at elecplus.com >> >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com Thu May 3 13:35:06 2018 From: nospam212-cctalk at yahoo.com (David Williams) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 18:35:06 +0000 (UTC) Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: <1733267811.921514.1525372506100@mail.yahoo.com> On Thursday, May 3, 2018 1:25 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:18 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk > wrote: >> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ >> >> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. >> >> Click on the item and see the discounted price. > > I smell an unfresh fish here.? Most of the items on the site are just > ebay listings, but much cheaper.? Not sure how they're operating but > there's likely a scam at play somewhere. I find it quite odd that everything I looked at was posted between $140 and $150... If you click on an item to see the "discounted price" like the original post suggested, you find that EVERYTHING is listed for $43.99. A fully stocked IMSAI 8080 with free shipping for $43.99? Right... David Williamswww.trailingedge.com From sales at elecplus.com Thu May 3 13:36:20 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:36:20 -0500 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: <07ee01d3e30d$a20ce370$e626aa50$@com> I just talked to a friend, who said he tried to order off the site and never got product. Had to use pp dispute to get his $ back. Sorry guys. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks via cctalk Sent: Thursday, May 03, 2018 1:25 PM To: Jason T; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:18 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk > wrote: >> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ >> >> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. >> >> Click on the item and see the discounted price. > > I smell an unfresh fish here. Most of the items on the site are just > ebay listings, but much cheaper. Not sure how they're operating but > there's likely a scam at play somewhere. I find it quite odd that everything I looked at was posted between $140 and $150... -ethan --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu May 3 13:43:46 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 11:43:46 -0700 Subject: Save or throw out - ST1480N HDD edition Message-ID: <923cb6d5-bd4d-0d3e-931f-804dda74d035@snowmoose.com> Actually, for me, this could probably be expanded to "early 90s SCSI HDD edition". As a collector of early 90s Sun systems, I have many Seagate ST1480N (aka Sun 424 drives). Starting two year ago, they all started dying. Out of a dozen, I am now down to one working one. Is anyone repairing/saving these or should I just throw them out when they fail? alan From ian.finder at gmail.com Thu May 3 13:46:20 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 11:46:20 -0700 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> Message-ID: How did you find this? Sadly I don't think it's legit. These are just scraped from eBay! On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ > > Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. > > Click on the item and see the discounted price. > > Free shipping over $15. > > > > Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From sales at elecplus.com Thu May 3 13:51:48 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:51:48 -0500 Subject: SGI stuff in the UK Message-ID: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/kybdsmice.html Hopefully this one is legit? Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ben at bensinclair.com Thu May 3 14:05:16 2018 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 14:05:16 -0500 Subject: SGI stuff in the UK In-Reply-To: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> References: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:51 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/kybdsmice.html > > Hopefully this one is legit? Not affiliated with seller, etc. > Ian is very much legit! If you need SGI stuff, he's an expert. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 3 14:15:49 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 20:15:49 +0100 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> Message-ID: <042201d3e313$2625c690$727153b0$@ntlworld.com> The About Us page doesn't seem in keeping with the items listed (no fashion there). The "All Category" menu includes an "ebay motors" item which is probably a give away and one of the menu items is in Italian. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Loewen via cctalk > Sent: 03 May 2018 19:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap > > > I was about to say something similar. Those items have been on Ebay for > years, some of them still up for auction, such as this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192514501391?ViewItem=&item=192514501391 > > The pictures are the same (what few of them actually display), and the > pries are nowhere close > > On Thu, 3 May 2018, Michael Lee via cctalk wrote: > > > Caution to anyone looking at this site, at a quick glance it appears > > to be a scam site, just using ebay items and descriptions for product info. > > > > > > On 5/3/2018 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > >> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ > >> > >> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. > >> > >> Click on the item and see the discounted price. > >> > >> Free shipping over $15. > >> > >> > >> > >> Not affiliated with seller, etc. > >> > >> > >> > >> Cindy Croxton > >> > >> Electronics Plus > >> > >> 1613 Water Street > >> > >> Kerrville, TX 78028 > >> > >> 830-370-3239 cell > >> > >> sales at elecplus.com > >> > >> AOL IM elcpls > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> --- > >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From mazzinia at tin.it Thu May 3 14:52:41 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 21:52:41 +0200 Subject: R: SGI stuff in the UK In-Reply-To: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> References: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> Message-ID: <010b01d3e318$4cbbc250$e63346f0$@tin.it> Very legit and the most reputable business seller on nekochan, plus he's an expert on the machines -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Electronics Plus via cctalk Inviato: gioved? 3 maggio 2018 20:52 A: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Oggetto: SGI stuff in the UK http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/kybdsmice.html Hopefully this one is legit? Not affiliated with seller, etc. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu May 3 15:38:43 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 15:38:43 -0500 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I was about to say something similar. Those items have been on Ebay > for years, some of them still up for auction, such as this: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192514501391?ViewItem=&item=192514501391 > > The pictures are the same (what few of them actually display), and the > pries are nowhere close > I noticed the few listings and pictures I tried searching for on eBay didn't bring up any results. Is this site a case of someone storing up a bunch of sales listings over a long period of time and then repurposing them to scam people after most of them are gone from eBay? Or did they manage to find those images and listings just recently in eBay? > > On Thu, 3 May 2018, Michael Lee via cctalk wrote: > > Caution to anyone looking at this site, at a quick glance it appears to be >> a scam site, just using ebay items and descriptions for product info. >> >> >> On 5/3/2018 12:48 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> >>> https://www.acrosups.top/vintage-computing-c-29/ >>> >>> Don't pay attention to where it says Old Price. >>> >>> Click on the item and see the discounted price. >>> >>> Free shipping over $15. >>> >>> >>> >>> Not affiliated with seller, etc. >>> >>> >>> >>> Cindy Croxton >>> >>> Electronics Plus >> >> > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > -- Eric Christopherson From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 3 15:48:18 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 16:48:18 -0400 Subject: old vintage stuff for pretty cheap In-Reply-To: References: <07af01d3e306$ea143c60$be3cb520$@com> <4b08ebd5-533b-da5b-ea4f-97377eb13642@tdh.com> Message-ID: <05B3FB83-0077-495B-BF47-657960F75CDD@comcast.net> Clearly a website that steals other people's work is a problem. If they do stuff like that, they may have larger criminal intent. For example, the links may be malware vectors. Weird top level domains like "top" are a sign to be suspicious. paul > On May 3, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Eric Christopherson via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 1:26 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> I was about to say something similar. Those items have been on Ebay >> for years, some of them still up for auction, such as this: >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/192514501391?ViewItem=&item=192514501391 >> >> The pictures are the same (what few of them actually display), and the >> pries are nowhere close >> > > I noticed the few listings and pictures I tried searching for on eBay > didn't bring up any results. Is this site a case of someone storing up a > bunch of sales listings over a long period of time and then repurposing > them to scam people after most of them are gone from eBay? Or did they > manage to find those images and listings just recently in eBay? > > >> >> On Thu, 3 May 2018, Michael Lee via cctalk wrote: >> >> Caution to anyone looking at this site, at a quick glance it appears to be >> a scam site, just using ebay items and descriptions for product info. ... From lbickley at bickleywest.com Thu May 3 15:56:02 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 13:56:02 -0700 Subject: SGI stuff in the UK In-Reply-To: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> References: <080d01d3e30f$cb04a450$610decf0$@com> Message-ID: <20180503135602.5f488adf@asrock.bcwi.net> Totally legit and Ian (the owner) knows more about SGI gear than anyone I know. My company's server is the U.S. mirror for his tech site: http://www.vintagecomputers.info/sgi.html Cheers, Lyle On Thu, 3 May 2018 13:51:48 -0500 Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/kybdsmice.html > > > > Hopefully this one is legit? Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 3 16:23:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: DPS 7000 tester? Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Cii-Honeywell-Bull-MPP-Maintenance-Panel-Portable-Tester/253592951049 too far out of scope for me I'm guessing it is for a 7000 From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Thu May 3 20:38:34 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 21:38:34 -0400 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement Message-ID: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I have, but they seem to be pretty rare.? At present I only have one mouse and I move it from machine to machine. The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem to be that much different. Is it possible to use an arduino to translate? PS/2 mouse output and then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 3 21:06:25 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 04 May 2018 02:06:25 +0000 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 3, 2018, 9:38 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one mouse > and I move it from machine to machine. > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem to > be that much different. > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? > The jack is different, that would be a factor too. B > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 3 21:14:19 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 3 May 2018 22:14:19 -0400 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16328edbe2f-c89-a22b@webjas-vae241.srv.aolmail.net> how abut forgethe the adreno... chop connector off. rewire a ps2 mouse and .... just use it? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Thursday, May 3, 2018 Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: On Thu, May 3, 2018, 9:38 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one mouse > and I move it from machine to machine. > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem to > be that much different. > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? > The jack is different, that would be a factor too. B > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri May 4 02:13:05 2018 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (mark at wickensonline.co.uk) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 08:13:05 +0100 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> Message-ID: <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> The Linux Kernel has support for DEC VSXXX mouse (as well as LK keyboards), the opposite of what you are interested in. So the conversion from DEC protocol is well documented. It would be fairly straightforward with a microcontroller to implement the reverse. See: https://code.woboq.org/linux/linux/drivers/input/mouse/vsxxxaa.c.html The major issue implementing support for DEC mice under Linux is the requirement for a -12v power rail - clearly this isn't an issue with a modern day replacement (I suspect it is a red-herring anyway for standard mice, just because-12v exists at the DEC connector doesn't mean it is used, possibly it was for digitizers for example). The DEC mouse protocol is described here: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/dec/manuals/decimages/104aatm1.pdf, section C6 onwards. Regards, Mark. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 3:06 AM To: Douglas Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC Mouse replacement On Thu, May 3, 2018, 9:38 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one > mouse and I move it from machine to machine. > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem > to be that much different. > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? > The jack is different, that would be a factor too. B > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 4 06:57:12 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 11:57:12 +0000 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 05/03/2018 09:38 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > have, but they seem to be pretty rare.? At present I only have one > mouse and I move it from machine to machine. > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem > to be that much different. > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate? PS/2 mouse output and > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? > Anything is possible. :-)? I have often wondered about using a modern PC mouse on a VaxStation 3100 but never got around to trying anything. I never thought about the Arduino route.? While it seems like overkill, I would bet it would work quite well. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 4 06:58:19 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 11:58:19 +0000 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 05/03/2018 10:06 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 3, 2018, 9:38 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I >> have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one mouse >> and I move it from machine to machine. >> >> The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem to >> be that much different. >> >> Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and >> then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? >> > The jack is different, that would be a factor too. > B Yes, but if one has broken DEC mice that problem is solved. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri May 4 07:00:25 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 12:00:25 +0000 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <16328edbe2f-c89-a22b@webjas-vae241.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16328edbe2f-c89-a22b@webjas-vae241.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 05/03/2018 10:14 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > how abut forgethe the adreno... chop connector off. rewire a ps2 mouse and .... just use it? > > I really don't think it is that easy.? Knowing how IBM tried to control the market I doubt there is anything beyond basic similarity in the protocol. Is the DEC Mouse protocol actually documented anywhere? bill From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 4 08:14:15 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 14:14:15 +0100 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> Message-ID: <00ae01d3e3a9$cdaa13d0$68fe3b70$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Gunshannon > via cctalk > Sent: 04 May 2018 12:57 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: DEC Mouse replacement > > > > On 05/03/2018 09:38 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > > have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one > > mouse and I move it from machine to machine. > > > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem > > to be that much different. > > > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and > > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? > > > Anything is possible. :-) I have often wondered about using a modern PC > mouse on a VaxStation 3100 but never got around to trying anything. I never > thought about the Arduino route. While it seems like overkill, I would bet it > would work quite well. > I have seen lots of similar projects using PIC chips. The smaller chips may require assembler coding, but you can get them in small enough form factors so that they can be inserted in the cable near the plug, and covered in heatshrink.. Dave G4UGM > bill From imp at bsdimp.com Fri May 4 08:47:42 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 07:47:42 -0600 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <00ae01d3e3a9$cdaa13d0$68fe3b70$@gmail.com> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> <00ae01d3e3a9$cdaa13d0$68fe3b70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 7:14 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill > Gunshannon > > via cctalk > > Sent: 04 May 2018 12:57 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: DEC Mouse replacement > > > > > > > > On 05/03/2018 09:38 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I > > > have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one > > > mouse and I move it from machine to machine. > > > > > > The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem > > > to be that much different. > > > > > > Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and > > > then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC > mouse? > > > > > Anything is possible. :-) I have often wondered about using a modern PC > > mouse on a VaxStation 3100 but never got around to trying anything. I > never > > thought about the Arduino route. While it seems like overkill, I would > bet it > > would work quite well. > > > > I have seen lots of similar projects using PIC chips. The smaller chips > may require assembler coding, but you can get them in small enough form > factors so that they can be inserted in the cable near the plug, and > covered in heatshrink.. > Back in the day, there were a lot of these sorts of things on the web. I had (still have) a newton keyboard that I interfaced to my (a) dec rainbow and (b) Sun 4 workstation. Of course, I did it with special drivers, not hardware (since I did it just before PICs got cheap and easy). There were many web site online that had PIC or other uC designs for this. As well as all the other, non-standard crazy stuff that was in the marketplace: Sun mice / keyboards, DEC gear, Amiga stuff, VT100 keyboards, etc. It was quite the scene, in 1994-5 or so... Last few times I tried to google it, none of the web sites that came up were still around. I can't even find my newton keyboard to x11 program... Oh, wait, I did find this: http://www.uinet.or.jp/~osamu-o/NewtonKeyboard/index.html which shows how to interface it to an AT... Warner From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Fri May 4 09:40:31 2018 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 10:40:31 -0400 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <96df4d37-c3fa-c94b-1719-177cd2945ae3@comcast.net> I had run into those bits on the web and also a ps2 driver for the arduino on github. The protocols are similar for the PS2 mouse and the DEC mouse, 3 bytes encoded with movement data. Generic PS/2 Mouse Packet Bits BYTE??? 7??? 6??? 5??? 4??? 3??? 2??? 1??? 0 0??? yo??? xo??? ys??? xs??? ao??? bm??? br??? bl 1??? xm 2??? ym Code??? Description yo??? Y-Axis Overflow xo??? X-Axis Overflow ys??? Y-Axis Sign Bit (9-Bit Y-Axis Relative Offset) xs??? X-Axis Sign Bit (9-Bit X-Axis Relative Offset) ao??? Always One bm??? Button Middle (Normally Off = 0) br??? Button Right (Normally Off = 0) bl??? Button Left (Normally Off = 0) xm??? X-Axis Movement Value ym??? Y-Axis Movement Value DEC mouse bits? (4800 Baud RS232) BYTE??? 7??? 6??? 5??? 4??? 3??? 2??? 1??? 0 0??? 1?? 0?? 0? sx? sy? l m r 1??? xm 2??? ym Code??? Description sy ?? Y-Axis Sign Bit sx ?? X-Axis Sign Bit ao??? Always One l,m,r? Left, Middle, Right button xm??? X-Axis Movement Value ym??? Y-Axis Movement Value This level of similarity made me think that a simple controller like the arduino could easily handle this. Doug On 5/4/2018 3:13 AM, mark--- via cctalk wrote: > The Linux Kernel has support for DEC VSXXX mouse (as well as LK keyboards), the opposite of what you are interested in. > So the conversion from DEC protocol is well documented. > It would be fairly straightforward with a microcontroller to implement the reverse. > > See: https://code.woboq.org/linux/linux/drivers/input/mouse/vsxxxaa.c.html > > The major issue implementing support for DEC mice under Linux is the requirement for a -12v power rail - clearly this isn't an issue with a modern day replacement (I suspect it is a red-herring anyway for standard mice, just because-12v exists at the DEC connector doesn't mean it is used, possibly it was for digitizers for example). > > The DEC mouse protocol is described here: http://oldcomputers.dyndns.org/public/pub/rechner/dec/manuals/decimages/104aatm1.pdf, section C6 onwards. > > Regards, Mark. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Bill Degnan via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 3:06 AM > To: Douglas Taylor ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: DEC Mouse replacement > > On Thu, May 3, 2018, 9:38 PM Douglas Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I would like to have a couple more DEC Mice for some Vaxestations I >> have, but they seem to be pretty rare. At present I only have one >> mouse and I move it from machine to machine. >> >> The protocols for the DEC mice and the standard PS/2 mice don't seem >> to be that much different. >> >> Is it possible to use an arduino to translate PS/2 mouse output and >> then send it to the vaxstation so that will it mimic a classic DEC mouse? >> > The jack is different, that would be a factor too. > B > From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri May 4 09:49:59 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 09:49:59 -0500 Subject: Intel 3000 series Message-ID: Does anyone have any software for developing for the Intel 3000 series? I bought some parts on eBay and am contemplating a bit-slice PDP-8 or DG Nova for fun. Bitsavers has some 3000 series manuals, but I can't seem to find any "bits" of software. Looks like CROMIS is the cross microprogram assembler, which looks like it would've run on an MDS-800. Apparently the CROMIS sources are in Fortran IV, and provide both XMAS and XMAP, the cross microassembler and a programming file generator, respectively. Anyways, if anyone has any bits of Intel 3000 development software or simulators, I would be very interested in checking them out. Thanks! Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 4 14:47:53 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 13:47:53 -0600 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any software for developing for the Intel 3000 series? I > bought some parts on eBay and am contemplating a bit-slice PDP-8 or DG Nova > for fun. > > Bitsavers has some 3000 series manuals, but I can't seem to find any "bits" > of software. Looks like CROMIS is the cross microprogram assembler, which > looks like it would've run on an MDS-800. > Signetics also had a microassembler for the 3000 series, "Signetics Micro Assembler", also written in FORTRAN, and not compatible with CROMIS. If CROMIS doesn't still exist, I'd suggest AMDASM on CP/M. It's on Bitsavers. It is a general-purpose metaassembler, not in any way specialized for AMD parts (e.g., 2900 series). Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, but it's not yet far enough along to be useful. From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:10:53 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 15:10:53 -0500 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:47 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Signetics also had a microassembler for the 3000 series, "Signetics Micro > Assembler", also written in FORTRAN, and not compatible with CROMIS. > Well, maybe that'll turn up if CROMIS doesn't. > > If CROMIS doesn't still exist, I'd suggest AMDASM on CP/M. It's on > Bitsavers. It is a general-purpose metaassembler, not in any way > specialized for AMD parts (e.g., 2900 series). > I assume it's one of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29/ Any tips on how to get it running in SimH or the like? I don't see any text file describing the system or format. > > Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, > but it's not yet far enough along to be useful. > Sweet! I wonder if there is enough in the way of microcoded stuff that a microdisassembler wouldn't be handy as well. Does something like that already exist? Kyle From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 4 15:40:17 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 14:40:17 -0600 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I assume it's one of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29/ > Any tips on how to get it running in SimH or the like? I don't see any text > file describing the system or format. > Should be in there somewhere. The IMD files are ImageDisk format. The ZIP files contain the extracted CP/M files. I ran it some years ago but don't recall the details. Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, but >> it's not yet far enough along to be useful. >> > > Sweet! I wonder if there is enough in the way of microcoded stuff that a > microdisassembler wouldn't be handy as well. Does something like that > already exist? > I haven't heard of a general-purpose microcode disassembler. I wrote a custom disassembler for the Atari Am2900-based "Math Box" used in Battlezone, Red Baron, and Tempest, and a few others for even more obscure machines. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 4 20:16:03 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 01:16:03 +0000 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I'm not sure how much good a 2900 assembler would be for a 3000 series part. The 2900 has an address controller more like a typical micro computer, while the 3000 is more like playing a game of chess. Of course, you can always use 3000 series alu's with a 2900 series address controller ( 2910 or 2911 as I recall ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 1:40:17 PM To: Kyle Owen Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Intel 3000 series On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I assume it's one of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29/ > Any tips on how to get it running in SimH or the like? I don't see any text > file describing the system or format. > Should be in there somewhere. The IMD files are ImageDisk format. The ZIP files contain the extracted CP/M files. I ran it some years ago but don't recall the details. Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, but >> it's not yet far enough along to be useful. >> > > Sweet! I wonder if there is enough in the way of microcoded stuff that a > microdisassembler wouldn't be handy as well. Does something like that > already exist? > I haven't heard of a general-purpose microcode disassembler. I wrote a custom disassembler for the Atari Am2900-based "Math Box" used in Battlezone, Red Baron, and Tempest, and a few others for even more obscure machines. From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri May 4 21:40:18 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 22:40:18 -0400 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> On 05/04/2018 09:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure how much good a 2900 assembler would be for a 3000 series part. The 2900 has an address controller more like a typical micro computer, while the 3000 is more like playing a game of chess. There seems to be the presumption the bit slices have a uniform organization like a micro.? They generally don not.? The opcodes and micro code are assigned and created by the developer and their minions along the lines of some architecture they wish to create.? they tend to have a pattern and thats about it. The 2900 has an address controller if you used the 2910 or 2911, no rule says you must. Random logic an be used. The 3000 series was very similar only 2 bits wide.? I haven't seen one of 40 years but likely have the book somewhere.? I think the only thing I've seen them in was the MDS-800 Disks system (the DD one). They all (don't forget the 6300 series) are similar, an alu not unlike the 74181, some glue and muxes for bus organization and few (usually 16) registers you can use how you wish, mostly. In the end they are all microprogrammed and the architecture is very fluid well beyond the slice width.? Even the order of control bit fields is up to the designer and can even be vertically encoded for systems with narrow microstore. > Of course, you can always use 3000 series alu's with a 2900 series address controller ( 2910 or 2911 as I recall ). Also depending on which you use the bit assignments, stacks, available temp registers are not identical. I've done that using 74157 muxes and 163 synchronous counters? even had conditional micro jumps. Made my own assembler written in Pascal.??? Never had commercial one available to me. Allison > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 1:40:17 PM > To: Kyle Owen > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Intel 3000 series > > On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > >> I assume it's one of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29/ >> > Any tips on how to get it running in SimH or the like? I don't see any text >> file describing the system or format. >> > Should be in there somewhere. The IMD files are ImageDisk format. The ZIP > files contain the extracted CP/M files. I ran it some years ago but don't > recall the details. > > Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, but >>> it's not yet far enough along to be useful. >>> >> Sweet! I wonder if there is enough in the way of microcoded stuff that a >> microdisassembler wouldn't be handy as well. Does something like that >> already exist? >> > I haven't heard of a general-purpose microcode disassembler. I wrote a > custom disassembler for the Atari Am2900-based "Math Box" used in > Battlezone, Red Baron, and Tempest, and a few others for even more obscure > machines. From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri May 4 21:59:23 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 21:59:23 -0500 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 8:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure how much good a 2900 assembler would be for a 3000 series > part. The 2900 has an address controller more like a typical micro > computer, while the 3000 is more like playing a game of chess. > I can certainly attest to the 3000 being like chess after pouring over the documentation; the microcode is laid out in a (possibly 3D) matrix, with 32 rows, 16 columns, and perhaps multiple pages. The conditional jumps only allow certain destinations, like jumping to row 0, jumping somewhere in the current row or column, jumping to an even/odd column depending on a flag, etc. It can get quite confusing! Kyle From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 4 22:36:49 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 03:36:49 +0000 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> References: , <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> Message-ID: As Allison says, some other controller would be a lot easier to deal with. The 3000 controller was intended for speed. I knew the fellow that wrote the code for the M2FM controller while at Intel ( Lou Bolardo sp? ). He was not my kind of person ( we never got along ) but he was one of the smartest people I have ever met. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 7:40:18 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Intel 3000 series On 05/04/2018 09:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure how much good a 2900 assembler would be for a 3000 series part. The 2900 has an address controller more like a typical micro computer, while the 3000 is more like playing a game of chess. There seems to be the presumption the bit slices have a uniform organization like a micro. They generally don not. The opcodes and micro code are assigned and created by the developer and their minions along the lines of some architecture they wish to create. they tend to have a pattern and thats about it. The 2900 has an address controller if you used the 2910 or 2911, no rule says you must. Random logic an be used. The 3000 series was very similar only 2 bits wide. I haven't seen one of 40 years but likely have the book somewhere. I think the only thing I've seen them in was the MDS-800 Disks system (the DD one). They all (don't forget the 6300 series) are similar, an alu not unlike the 74181, some glue and muxes for bus organization and few (usually 16) registers you can use how you wish, mostly. In the end they are all microprogrammed and the architecture is very fluid well beyond the slice width. Even the order of control bit fields is up to the designer and can even be vertically encoded for systems with narrow microstore. > Of course, you can always use 3000 series alu's with a 2900 series address controller ( 2910 or 2911 as I recall ). Also depending on which you use the bit assignments, stacks, available temp registers are not identical. I've done that using 74157 muxes and 163 synchronous counters even had conditional micro jumps. Made my own assembler written in Pascal. Never had commercial one available to me. Allison > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 1:40:17 PM > To: Kyle Owen > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Intel 3000 series > > On Fri, May 4, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > >> I assume it's one of these? http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29/ >> > Any tips on how to get it running in SimH or the like? I don't see any text >> file describing the system or format. >> > Should be in there somewhere. The IMD files are ImageDisk format. The ZIP > files contain the extracted CP/M files. I ran it some years ago but don't > recall the details. > > Some time ago I started working on an AMDASM clone written in Python 3, but >>> it's not yet far enough along to be useful. >>> >> Sweet! I wonder if there is enough in the way of microcoded stuff that a >> microdisassembler wouldn't be handy as well. Does something like that >> already exist? >> > I haven't heard of a general-purpose microcode disassembler. I wrote a > custom disassembler for the Atari Am2900-based "Math Box" used in > Battlezone, Red Baron, and Tempest, and a few others for even more obscure > machines. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 00:45:16 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 4 May 2018 22:45:16 -0700 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: References: <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/04/2018 08:36 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > As Allison says, some other controller would be a lot easier to deal > with. The 3000 controller was intended for speed. > > I knew the fellow that wrote the code for the M2FM controller while > at Intel ( Lou Bolardo sp? ). He was not my kind of person ( we > never got along ) but he was one of the smartest people I have ever > met. I remember that one--ran as hot as a two-buck pistol, in my recollection. --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 5 04:57:21 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 11:57:21 +0200 Subject: Old core memory system. Message-ID: Can anyone tell what kind of computer this might have been connected to? https://i.imgur.com/IC3AVCf.jpg I googled MS8192X26-1.9-RT and found one hit: http://www.nsn-now.com/Indexing/ViewDetail.aspx?QString=7025013480747 And then FABRI-TECH (maybe miss-spelled) gave a nice broschure: https://archive.org/details/TNM_Fabri-Tek_Inc_-_Brochure_20170629_0325 The core memory system boxes indeed look similar. But still no clue what kind of system this has been connected to. What kind of system made use of 26 bits? Maybe 24 bits + check bits? It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that currently have it. But the person I have contact with don't know the actual source. Possibly flight simulation since the same guys do have several old flight simulators. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 5 10:20:25 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 May 2018 10:20:25 -0500 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AEDCBB9.5090505@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone tell what kind of computer this might have been connected to? > > https://i.imgur.com/IC3AVCf.jpg > The panel just SCREAMS military. A lot of outfits (CDC,Burroughs, IBM, Honeywell) made systems for the military. Likely, the back of that unit tells who made it. > > It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that > currently have it. But the person I have contact with don't know the actual > source. Possibly flight simulation since the same guys do have several old > flight simulators. > Simulation -- could be. Some Honeywell gear was 24-bit. Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Sat May 5 10:55:59 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 05 May 2018 15:55:59 +0000 Subject: Intel 3000 series In-Reply-To: <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> References: <72a9957d-d5d9-a8bb-492b-a4b9825a34e6@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 4, 2018, 20:39 allison via cctalk wrote: > On 05/04/2018 09:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not sure how much good a 2900 assembler would be for a 3000 series > part. The 2900 has an address controller more like a typical micro > computer, while the 3000 is more like playing a game of chess. > There seems to be the presumption the bit slices have a uniform organization > like a micro. They generally don not. AMDASM is a metaassembler; it has no such presumption. The opcodes and micro code are > assigned > and created by the developer and their minions along the lines of some > architecture they wish to create. they tend to have a pattern and thats > about it. > AMDASM works fine with that. It can even support bitfields that are discontiguously stored in the microword. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat May 5 10:57:37 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 17:57:37 +0200 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: <5AEDCBB9.5090505@pico-systems.com> References: <5AEDCBB9.5090505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: 2018-05-05 17:20 GMT+02:00 Jon Elson : > On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >> Can anyone tell what kind of computer this might have been connected to? >> >> https://i.imgur.com/IC3AVCf.jpg >> >> The panel just SCREAMS military. A lot of outfits (CDC,Burroughs, IBM, > Honeywell) made systems for the military. Likely, the back of that unit > tells who made it. I don't think it would be necessary to look at the back. The picture matches very well with the ones in the Fabri-Tek brochure that I linked. And then ID MS8192x26-1.9-RT make a hit in the "NSN database" to a FABRI-TECH unit. Core memory system. The FABRI-TEK brochure is printed sometime after 1965. And the System units have a slightly more modern look compared to the one I linked to. I am mostly referring to the panel meter which seems to have gone from round to rectangular. It can indeed have been used for some military application. Especially since this museum have received some military aircraft items in the past. > > >> It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that >> currently have it. But the person I have contact with don't know the >> actual >> source. Possibly flight simulation since the same guys do have several old >> flight simulators. >> >> Simulation -- could be. Some Honeywell gear was 24-bit. I found one more google hit for FABRI-TEK: http://ljkrakauer.com/LJK/60s/moby.htm Interfacing it with a PDP-6. > > > Jon > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 5 11:10:13 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 09:10:13 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <5AEDCBB9.5090505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <79005744-e7b0-5326-cf75-51ef0e4666e3@bitsavers.org> On 5/5/18 8:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > I found one more google hit for FABRI-TEK: > http://ljkrakauer.com/LJK/60s/moby.htm Interfacing it with a PDP-6. There should be a bunch of info on the net, Fabri-Tek made a LOT of OEM core memory units. I have one for a PDP-8/I Also, that link is a picture of the unit that CHM has http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102731715 26-bits is an interesting number of bits. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat May 5 11:33:17 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 09:33:17 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5C1A7B7D-B30B-4B38-A748-4D8128FCBB5B@shaw.ca> On 2018-May-05, at 2:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Can anyone tell what kind of computer this might have been connected to? > > https://i.imgur.com/IC3AVCf.jpg > > I googled MS8192X26-1.9-RT and found one hit: > > http://www.nsn-now.com/Indexing/ViewDetail.aspx?QString=7025013480747 > > And then FABRI-TECH (maybe miss-spelled) gave a nice broschure: > > https://archive.org/details/TNM_Fabri-Tek_Inc_-_Brochure_20170629_0325 > > The core memory system boxes indeed look similar. > > But still no clue what kind of system this has been connected to. > > What kind of system made use of 26 bits? Maybe 24 bits + check bits? > > It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that > currently have it. But the person I have contact with don't know the actual > source. Possibly flight simulation since the same guys do have several old > flight simulators. Can't help with the target system, but I'd guess the "1.9" is likely the cycle time in uS. 26 bits might be 24 with parity and a spare. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat May 5 11:50:09 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 11:50:09 -0500 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that > currently have it. Hmm, 'stack heater' caught my eye... I'm not particularly familiar with core setups, but I didn't think that was a common thing, suggesting the possibility of a cold environment - immediate thought on the back of that was something on a plane. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 5 12:02:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 10:02:41 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: <79005744-e7b0-5326-cf75-51ef0e4666e3@bitsavers.org> References: <5AEDCBB9.5090505@pico-systems.com> <79005744-e7b0-5326-cf75-51ef0e4666e3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <366c6033-bc31-95e9-6902-3fc9eab7a1d2@bitsavers.org> Just found a better picture of the MIT PDP-6 core panel https://www.flickr.com/photos/mwichary/2323461568 The contents of the fortune cookie was still taped on there as of 2008 > On 5/5/18 8:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >> I found one more google hit for FABRI-TEK: >> http://ljkrakauer.com/LJK/60s/moby.htm Interfacing it with a PDP-6. From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 5 12:23:37 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 10:23:37 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see it temp but you would see core [driver] current. My 360/50 panel has the ability to monitor and adjust in real time the core current. Military or extreme environment core was a bitch to keep working. I worked on a system designed to go in a Army tank and I came in late but remember we had to test the system from -55 F to 155 F, and the core was the biggest trouble maker. -pete On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > >> It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that >> currently have it. >> > > Hmm, 'stack heater' caught my eye... I'm not particularly familiar with > core setups, but I didn't think that was a common thing, suggesting the > possibility of a cold environment - immediate thought on the back of that > was something on a plane. > > > > From shumaker at att.net Sat May 5 12:35:41 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 10:35:41 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 5/5/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see > it temp but you would see core [driver] current. > > My 360/50 panel has the ability to monitor and adjust in real time the core > current. > > Military or extreme environment core was a bitch to keep working. I worked > on a system designed to go in a Army tank and > I came in late but remember we had to test the system from -55 F to 155 F, > and the core was the biggest trouble maker. > > -pete > > On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >>> It could be flight control related since it is aviation museum that >>> currently have it. >>> >> Hmm, 'stack heater' caught my eye... I'm not particularly familiar with >> core setups, but I didn't think that was a common thing, suggesting the >> possibility of a cold environment - immediate thought on the back of that >> was something on a plane. >> >> >> >> Core memory in an Army tank????? There has to be a fascinating tale behind that statement..... Steve From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat May 5 12:49:14 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 13:49:14 -0400 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see > it temp but you would see core [driver] current. Every DEC corestack I've seen at least has a thermistor to handle the normal range of operational temps. > My 360/50 panel has the ability to monitor and adjust in real time the core > current. I have not worked on a machine that allowed one to watch or (easily) adjust the core current, but I only have "low end" systems. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 5 13:32:02 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 May 2018 11:32:02 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/05/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see > it temp but you would see core [driver] current. The early IBM 7000 series (7070, 7080, 7090) kept core in a temperature-regulated oil bath. Later versions used pre-heated air (e.g. 7094 core). On the CDC 7600, hitting the same area of care repeatedly could cause it to overheat and throw parity errors. Circuitry to detect this would slow-down repeated accesses. That was for CM. I seem to recall someone telling me that there was no such provision in PP core and a "jump to self" was sufficient to throw an error--but that may be a shaggy-dog story. --Chuck From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun May 6 13:14:22 2018 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 14:14:22 -0400 Subject: Looking for TI 990/12 hardware reference manual ???? In-Reply-To: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831@mail.yahoo.com> References: <910753862.3444515.1525287402831.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <910753862.3444515.1525287402831@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20180506141422.5bbd99bb@crucible> On Wed, 2 May 2018 18:56:42 +0000 (UTC) Jerry Wright via cctalk wrote: > I have a later TI 990/12 system with a dead power supply. Looking > drawings or schematics andI believe there in the hardware reference > manual.? The one manual on bitsavers? under 990/10shows a older type > of power supply.? Mine is basically? all on 1 board.? The chassis is > a 990 A13 > > Thanks, Jerry > I went over to my storage today, and thought I'd found the box it was in since it had another 990 manual on top, but it turns out it was otherwise a box of TI-99 stuff. ROM, GROM, DSR sources, product manuals, specifications, etc. Interesting but not what you're looking for. I'll take another crack at it later today if I get this guy's overheating van fixed before dark. later, jbdigriz From elson at pico-systems.com Sat May 5 19:37:11 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 May 2018 19:37:11 -0500 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5AEE4E37.4020209@pico-systems.com> On 05/05/2018 11:50 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 05/05/2018 04:57 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> It could be flight control related since it is aviation >> museum that >> currently have it. > > Hmm, 'stack heater' caught my eye... I'm not particularly > familiar with core setups, but I didn't think that was a > common thing, suggesting the possibility of a cold > environment - immediate thought on the back of that was > something on a plane. Lots of early core memory systems had heated core stacks. It was a lot simpler to heat the stack to a known temperature than to cool it. Eventually, they figured out that you could put a thermistor in the stack and adjust the half-select currents to follow the temperature characteristic. But, I think IBM 1620, 709x and 360/30, 360/40, etc had heated stacks. I think the 360/50 had a heated local store, but not the main store. The picture looked just a little big/heavy for flight gear, but maybe something like the E3 might have gear like that in the radar data processor. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 6 13:18:18 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 12:18:18 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. Message-ID: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Hi, Does anyone have any recommendations for a '90s era PC that has PCI and ISA slots? Ideally I'd like to have EISA slots too. ? At least I think that's what I want. I'm developing an itch to play with older networking equipment, Token Ring, FDDI, etc. and I suspect that a machine running '98 / NT 4, or a Unix / Linux from the late '90s would be a good candidate to mess with things. Obviously I'll need two devices to communicate. I may end up looking for an older Cisco router that supports the various interface types. Years ago I had a Compaq desktop that had PCI and EISA slots. I'm trying to re-acquire it from the friend that it went to. Does anyone have any Pro Tips on things to look for or avoid? ? One of the worries that I have about the aforementioned Compaq is that it used proprietary components (the keyboard connector looked like a PowerBook SCSI connector) that would be hard to replace if (read: when) a problem develops. I would greatly appreciate any tips / tricks / things to avoid. Thank you in advance. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat May 5 23:05:32 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 04:05:32 +0000 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Fabri-tek was a common supplier for core memory. Many companies used their memories. Fabri-tek Instruments became Nicolet Instruments in 1971. I'm not sure one could tell what machine it was used for. It was a common memory system. They did make a lot of memories for military use. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Smith via cctalk Sent: Saturday, May 5, 2018 12:36:07 PM To: Chuck Guzis; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Old core memory system. SDS built a 24 bit system with Parity too, the CDC 924 was 24bit, there were a few others and I believe but can not recall for sure, a navy 24 bit maybe done by ERA. bb On Sat, May 5, 2018 at 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 05/05/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >> Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see >> it temp but you would see core [driver] current. > > The early IBM 7000 series (7070, 7080, 7090) kept core in a > temperature-regulated oil bath. Later versions used pre-heated air > (e.g. 7094 core). > > On the CDC 7600, hitting the same area of care repeatedly could cause it > to overheat and throw parity errors. Circuitry to detect this would > slow-down repeated accesses. > > That was for CM. I seem to recall someone telling me that there was no > such provision in PP core and a "jump to self" was sufficient to throw > an error--but that may be a shaggy-dog story. > > --Chuck From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 6 17:32:07 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 17:32:07 -0500 Subject: list server maintenance Message-ID: <010501d3e58a$10b6f670$3224e350$@classiccmp.org> Back up, testing. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun May 6 13:19:28 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 14:19:28 -0400 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On May 5, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/05/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >> Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see >> it temp but you would see core [driver] current. > > The early IBM 7000 series (7070, 7080, 7090) kept core in a > temperature-regulated oil bath. Later versions used pre-heated air > (e.g. 7094 core). > > On the CDC 7600, hitting the same area of care repeatedly could cause it > to overheat and throw parity errors. Circuitry to detect this would > slow-down repeated accesses. > > That was for CM. I seem to recall someone telling me that there was no > such provision in PP core and a "jump to self" was sufficient to throw > an error--but that may be a shaggy-dog story. The IBM 1620 had a core heater; I remember having to wait for core to warm up after turning the machine on before it would start. One of the old PDP-11 diagnostics is the "core heating test". The description said it would hammer a region of memory (physical area) to get it to warm up, to see if there was enough margin for memory to remain reliable. On CDC memory: The 6000 series PPs always access memory every cycle. Whenever it doesn'thave anything better to do, the control logic uses the P register (program counter) for address. So there is no way in a PP to make memory work any harder; it's always a cycle every microsecond (memory running flat out) no matter what. I'm not positive the 7000 series works the same, but it would seem plausible that it does. CM, on the other hand, is referenced only when requested. So CM is normally working less than PP memory. Parity? I know the 170 series had parity, didn't think the 7600 did. The 6000 series does not (except for ECS). "Parity is for farmers" -- Seymour Cray. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 17:45:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 15:45:13 -0700 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 05/06/2018 11:18 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations for a '90s era PC that has PCI and > ISA slots? Ideally I'd like to have EISA slots too. ? At least I > think that's what I want. Depends on your CPU needs, but if you're willing to settle for P2/P3 era, anything using the Intel i440BX or GX generally has very good ISA support. If you want to go earlier than that (90s covers a lot of ground), a 486 or P1 or SS7 board might also be a possibility. I like the Supermicro and Advantech boards, but YMMV. --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun May 6 19:39:54 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 21:39:54 -0300 Subject: list server maintenance In-Reply-To: <010501d3e58a$10b6f670$3224e350$@classiccmp.org> References: <010501d3e58a$10b6f670$3224e350$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: \o/ This is a test, designed to provoke a funny response \o/ 2018-05-06 19:32 GMT-03:00 Jay West via cctalk : > Back up, testing. > > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 6 19:45:31 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 19:45:31 -0500 Subject: list server maintenance In-Reply-To: References: <010501d3e58a$10b6f670$3224e350$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: lol On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 7:39 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > \o/ This is a test, designed to provoke a funny response \o/ > > 2018-05-06 19:32 GMT-03:00 Jay West via cctalk : > > > Back up, testing. > > > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 6 21:45:10 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 20:45:10 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/06/2018 04:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Depends on your CPU needs, but if you're willing to settle for P2/P3 era, > anything using the Intel i440BX or GX generally has very good ISA support. Well, to be honest, I don't have any real need beyond enough to run the OS, a basic editor (preferably something more user friendly than ed(lin)) and run a networking stack. I /might/ consider playing some old DOS / Windows 3x / Windows 9x based games, nothing fancy. (Yoda Stories is the most likely candidate.) > If you want to go earlier than that (90s covers a lot of ground), a 486 > or P1 or SS7 board might also be a possibility. Ya. I'm thinking more in the P I / II / III range. I've long had a soft spot for the Pentium Pro. I wonder what those machines are going for these days. ? A LONG time ago I saw an advertisement for a system that could accept six Pentium Pros. ? This could turn out to be dangerous. I've got to say, I don't recognize SS7 as a CPU type. In fact, SS7 means Signaling System 7 to me. Different genera, but possibly the proper time frame. > I like the Supermicro and Advantech boards, but YMMV. ACK I'm fond of Supermicro machines too. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 6 22:00:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 20:00:41 -0700 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <4a9a947d-ccd4-94d9-2fc4-a87fcd122a6e@sydex.com> On 05/06/2018 07:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've got to say, I don't recognize SS7 as a CPU type. In fact, SS7 > means Signaling System 7 to me. Different genera, but possibly the > proper time frame. SS7 = Super Socket 7. P1 Socket 7 with extras: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Socket_7 Faster AMD P1-era CPUs. For example, K6-II and K6-III. Competes well with P2 family. PPros have been ruthlessly raided by the gold scrappers. So not cheap for what you get. -- --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun May 6 22:01:43 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 23:01:43 -0400 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, May 6, 2018 at 10:45 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 05/06/2018 04:45 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Depends on your CPU needs, but if you're willing to settle for P2/P3 > era, > > anything using the Intel i440BX or GX generally has very good ISA > support. > > Well, to be honest, I don't have any real need beyond enough to run the > OS, a basic editor (preferably something more user friendly than > ed(lin)) and run a networking stack. > > I /might/ consider playing some old DOS / Windows 3x / Windows 9x based > games, nothing fancy. (Yoda Stories is the most likely candidate.) > > > If you want to go earlier than that (90s covers a lot of ground), a 486 > > or P1 or SS7 board might also be a possibility. > > Ya. > > I'm thinking more in the P I / II / III range. > > I think I'd rather have a NeXT if I had an unlimited budget and it was say 1993, but that's also when Pentiums came out and changed everything. I have set aside a few intel machines from the 90's. I really like the quality of the Dell Dimension 466V. Bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 6 22:09:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 21:09:20 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <0df46085-e319-ca95-49f1-ae279674ae67@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/06/2018 09:01 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > I think I'd rather have a NeXT if I had an unlimited budget and it was > say 1993, but that's also when Pentiums came out and changed everything. I have a lot of respect for NeXT machines. I think I'd like to own one some day. But I think I'm going to stick with x86 to scratch this itch. > I have set aside a few intel machines from the 90's.? I really like the > quality of the Dell Dimension 466V. I had a non-trivial number of machines that would fit the bill before I moved. Quite a bit of the network equipment too. But I moved ~1000 miles and a LOT of things didn't make the move. :-( -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sun May 6 22:10:58 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sun, 6 May 2018 21:10:58 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <4a9a947d-ccd4-94d9-2fc4-a87fcd122a6e@sydex.com> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4a9a947d-ccd4-94d9-2fc4-a87fcd122a6e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <47e4c624-289e-3cf3-51f6-7741c15bda49@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/06/2018 09:00 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > SS7 = Super Socket 7. P1 Socket 7 with extras: Ah. I wondered if it was Super Socket, but I'd (obviously) forgotten. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Socket_7 > > Faster AMD P1-era CPUs. For example, K6-II and K6-III. Competes well > with P2 family. I remember my AMD K6-II fondly. > PPros have been ruthlessly raided by the gold scrappers. So not cheap > for what you get. I noticed the prices for machines were not cheap on eBay and there were a number of people selling the CPUs on scales or in big batches. I'm guessing that's why. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From lproven at gmail.com Mon May 7 07:28:38 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 07 May 2018 12:28:38 +0000 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <47e4c624-289e-3cf3-51f6-7741c15bda49@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4a9a947d-ccd4-94d9-2fc4-a87fcd122a6e@sydex.com> <47e4c624-289e-3cf3-51f6-7741c15bda49@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2018 at 05:10, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I remember my AMD K6-II fondly. I ran a Cyrix 6x86-P166+ for a while as my main PC and it was a lovely machine. Alas, I needed to review one of the last versions of Aldus PageMaker and it wouldn't run on a Cyrix chip -- only on Intel. That drove me to get a new box -- a PII-450 which served me well for several years. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/49259.html But they were good chips. Some unfortunate software accidents more or less killed them. As that blog post says, I'm still waiting for Via to do something interesting, but they don't seem to be interested. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 7 07:39:34 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 08:39:34 -0400 (EDT) Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. Message-ID: <20180507123934.D13FD18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Grant Taylor > Does anyone have any recommendations for a '90s era PC that has PCI and > ISA slots? I have a bunch of HP machines, which are still in heavy use (although upgraded to Celerons with the PowerLeap iP3/T thingys). Vectra VL6/S8's and VLi8s. I'm very fond of them - solidly built, well engineered, quite reliable, etc. The VL5/S4-5 and VL6/S6-7, etc are also OK (very similar, same build quality), but I prefer the /S8's as they have the 100MHz memory bus. Noel From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon May 7 11:41:22 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 10:41:22 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <43768da1-d5c1-d025-2288-fcbbccfe4e0e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4a9a947d-ccd4-94d9-2fc4-a87fcd122a6e@sydex.com> <47e4c624-289e-3cf3-51f6-7741c15bda49@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <725c7c39-92cc-d03b-2cbc-34c86a7fc7d8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/07/2018 06:28 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I ran a Cyrix 6x86-P166+ for a while as my main PC and it was a lovely > machine. I think I had a Cyrix CPU in an Acer Aspire that I had years ago. It served me well. Though I didn't do much that would push the system. > But they were good chips. Some unfortunate software accidents more or > less killed them. Ya. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon May 7 11:47:25 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 10:47:25 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 05/06/2018 12:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Years ago I had a Compaq desktop that had PCI and EISA slots. I'm trying > to re-acquire it from the friend that it went to. Lo and behold the friend that has the old Compaq desktop agreed to sell it to me. Presumably it's still in working condition. It does have EISA and PCI slots as well as what seems to be called a Vocalist keyboard from Compaq. I /think/ it's a Compaq Deskpro XL 560, but I'm not completely sure on the specific model. Here's a quick link with some overview of the Deskpro XL line. Link - Compaq Deskpro XL Desktop PC series - https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c00355459/ -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon May 7 14:12:04 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 13:12:04 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/7/2018 10:47 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 05/06/2018 12:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Years ago I had a Compaq desktop that had PCI and EISA slots. I'm trying >> to re-acquire it from the friend that it went to. > > Lo and behold the friend that has the old Compaq desktop agreed to sell > it to me. Presumably it's still in working condition. > > It does have EISA and PCI slots as well as what seems to be called a > Vocalist keyboard from Compaq. > > I /think/ it's a Compaq Deskpro XL 560, but I'm not completely sure on > the specific model. > > Here's a quick link with some overview of the Deskpro XL line. > > Link - Compaq Deskpro XL Desktop PC series > - https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c00355459/ > Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD MACHINES? Ben. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon May 7 14:37:56 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 13:37:56 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 05/07/2018 01:12 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD > MACHINES? I have multiple copies of older OSs that will run on the machine. DOS / Windows: MS-DOS, PC-DOS, DR-DOS, FreeDOS, Windows 3.x, Windows 9x, Windows NT 3.x, Windows NT 4 Novell: NetWare 3.x, 4.x, 5.x, maybe 6.x OS/2: Warp 3, Warp 4 Linux: (multiple) FreeBSD: (multiple) SCO OpenServer 5., UnixWare 7. I'd like to get my hands on Banyan Vines and / or Artisoft LANtastic to play with things. }:-) I don't know how much memory is installed in the machine. But i would expect that various versions of all of the above can install and run on a machine with between 16 MB and 64 MB. As for drive, anything between 200 MB and 2 GB will likely work. I know that I've had Linux installed on the machine before. There are a LOT of options on such machines. One thing that I really like is the fact that it's a combination of PCI and EISA bus. Which means that I can mess with just about any add-on / expansion card that I want to. ? Save for MCA and VLB. Though I doubt that I'll want to play with those cards. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mazzinia at tin.it Mon May 7 14:48:03 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 21:48:03 +0200 Subject: R: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <00d401d3e63c$508f2120$f1ad6360$@tin.it> Windows from 1.x up to 98 SE Linux / bsd OS/2 NextStep BeOS likely Novell Netware Likely forgot something -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di ben via cctalk Inviato: luned? 7 maggio 2018 21:12 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: '90s era PC recommendation. On 5/7/2018 10:47 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 05/06/2018 12:18 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> Years ago I had a Compaq desktop that had PCI and EISA slots. I'm trying >> to re-acquire it from the friend that it went to. > > Lo and behold the friend that has the old Compaq desktop agreed to sell > it to me. Presumably it's still in working condition. > > It does have EISA and PCI slots as well as what seems to be called a > Vocalist keyboard from Compaq. > > I /think/ it's a Compaq Deskpro XL 560, but I'm not completely sure on > the specific model. > > Here's a quick link with some overview of the Deskpro XL line. > > Link - Compaq Deskpro XL Desktop PC series > - https://support.hp.com/us-en/document/c00355459/ > Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD MACHINES? Ben. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon May 7 12:08:36 2018 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 13:08:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: TRS-80s available: Ottawa, ON, Canada Message-ID: <201805071708.NAA03469@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> A friend and colleage of mine says he has two TRS-80s available, or perhaps very soon to be available, in Ottawa (the capital of Canada). He says he knows very little about them; apparently it's been something like a decade since they were even taken out of the boxes. For further information, I'd suggest contacting him directly - I haven't even so much as seen the boxes they're in. lucasb at gmail.com is the address he gave me to pass along. Mouse From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 18:38:13 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 16:38:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 May 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: > Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD MACHINES? MS-DOS will, of course, work for all. Xenix 3.0 (1984?) worked with 8088, 512K RAM, 10MB disk. Microsoft had a license for Unix, since 1978, but NOT for the "Unix" name. By mid 1980s, Microsoft had the highest volume AT&T Unix license. Windows 3.00 is the last Windows that will work with an 8088. Windows 3.10 wants a 286, won't install without A20, with 64K of RAM above 1MB (640K, or even 512K in main RAM, and 64K of Extended RAM) Officially? it needs 2MB, but that is not true. It would like VGA, but "Hercules" MDA works. It WILL work with CGA (640x200), using the Win3.0 driver. It looked at the time that Microsoft porgrammers were using 800x600, because that is the only one that really looked "right". Win95 wants a 386 or above. (SX was limited to 16MB of RAM, which prob'ly won't work) Win98 said that it "needs" 486, but 386 works. Notice that Windoze was in an "I386" directory. BUT, MICROS~1 often blurred the lines between what was "NEEDED" V what was "RECOMMENDED". Performance issues with Windoze made the "recommendations" more important. And ANY complaints about performance, if answered at all, were answered with implications of personal inadequacy, "solution" of having you throw hardware at it, and variants of "233 MHZ Pentium?? I'm amazed that it would even RUN on that!" "Deskpro XL?? That's almost 6 months old! What kind of performance would you expect from something that ancient?" XP calls for a 233MHz with 64MB RAM, 1.5GB disk space, 800x600 display. Vista calls for 1GHZ, 1GB Win7 same, but requires internet connection (during installation) Most will probably run on 386DX, with unacceptable performance. But, Windoze has raised "unacceptable performance" to a level where even we can't tolerate it! I thought that I could tolerate slow turn-around for batch processing, such as "Handbrake", but I eventually broke down and bought performance. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon May 7 19:06:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 17:06:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD >> MACHINES? > MS-DOS will, of course, work for all. That should read MS-DOS will, of course, work for all PCs. (for some definition of "PC", that usually means 5150 derived clone) MS-DOS will most certainly NOT work for all OLD MACHINES. For OLD MACHINES, you will need to locate whatever OS went with it. CP/M, for example, was for 8080, 8085, Z80, with a few other requirements such as memory map (TRS80 required relocating memory, or relocating CP/M to work) The Epson RC-20 (wrist watch) had a Z80 compatible processor, RAM, ROM, etc., but nobody ever ported a version of CP/M to it. I no longer have access to the "ROM-Roader", so I don't think that I can resurrect mine. I should see if my Fossil Palm-OS watch still works. From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon May 7 19:55:15 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 20:55:15 -0400 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: <1e0314e0-b018-53a0-c287-d3e77b150450@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <1da2d979-970f-0c83-1346-9e72bb775942@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <01090845-5380-a9a3-04fc-e790b65155c1@gmail.com> On 05/07/2018 07:38 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 7 May 2018, ben via cctalk wrote: >> Unless you have a old copy of DOS, what OS can you get for the OLD >> MACHINES? > > MS-DOS will, of course, work for all. > > Xenix 3.0 (1984?) worked with 8088, 512K RAM, 10MB disk. > Microsoft had a license for Unix, since 1978, but NOT for the "Unix" > name. > By mid 1980s, Microsoft had the highest volume AT&T Unix license. > > > Windows 3.00 is the last Windows that will work with an 8088. > > Windows 3.10 wants a 286, won't install without A20, with 64K of RAM > above 1MB (640K, or even 512K in main RAM, and 64K of Extended RAM) > Officially? it needs 2MB, but that is not true. > It would like VGA, but "Hercules" MDA works. > It WILL work with CGA (640x200), using the Win3.0 driver. > It looked at the time that Microsoft porgrammers were using 800x600, > because that is the only one that really looked "right". > > Win95 wants a 386 or above. > (SX was limited to 16MB of RAM, which prob'ly won't work) > > Win98 said that it "needs" 486, but 386 works. > > Notice that Windoze was in an "I386" directory. > > BUT, MICROS~1 often blurred the lines between what was "NEEDED" V what > was "RECOMMENDED".? Performance issues with Windoze made the > "recommendations" more important.? And ANY complaints about > performance, if answered at all, were answered with implications of > personal inadequacy, "solution" of having you throw hardware at it, > and variants of "233 MHZ Pentium?? I'm amazed that it would even RUN > on that!" > "Deskpro XL?? That's almost 6 months old!? What kind of performance > would you expect from something that ancient?" > > XP calls for a 233MHz with 64MB RAM, 1.5GB disk space, 800x600 display. > > Vista calls for 1GHZ, 1GB > > Win7 same, but requires internet connection (during installation) > > > Most will probably run on 386DX, with unacceptable performance. > > But, Windoze has raised "unacceptable performance" to a level where > even we can't tolerate it! > I thought that I could tolerate slow turn-around for batch processing, > such as "Handbrake", but I eventually broke down and bought performance. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com My old dell 486DX/66, 32mb, 800xx600 video pizza box runs 3.11 95, 98, NT4.? NT4 does run slowly but for testing it proved near impossible to crunch.? DOS and 3.11 runs like the wind on that.? I keep the box for ISA-8/16 bus needs. I have minix for it and a old Slackware linux as well.? The only yabut is the disk must be partitioned 500meg for the first as the BIOS can't figure out larger so all the disks have a 500/and remainder partition.? I swap drives as needed for what OS is in need.? I have two as they are good fairly compact? boxes.? I must have at least five WD4.3gb drives with various OSes plus a few 500mb drives with win3.11/DOS. For occasional needs I have a Compaq 333/384meg box that also has ISA and PCI for those needs. Its handy when I need a low end classic with Ethernet, USB plus all the legacy ports.? Fair linux machine running Ubuntu 10.4 on a 20gb drive. And a white box Celeron 1ghz/1gb box for more modern needs.? It happens to have a single ISA slot plus the usual PCI.? I got that MB new back in '03 real cheap as the board was being phased out but the shop had one new but not much interest for celeron.? ITs plus is all the legacy IO, USB, decent VGA, and Ethernet.? The legacy IO keeps it around after all what can't you do with a parallel port! Alternate systems for utility work are epia-M board (ITX) also 1ghz/1gb all running Ubuntu linux version 10.4 as it has very low needs.? They are good for IO as most of the ITX board have serial, parallel, USB, Ethernet, good VGA, S-video, sound, and PS2 mouse and keyboard.? Good enough to run a HP4L and CUPS. or logging for field day. Allison From seefriek at gmail.com Mon May 7 21:52:14 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 22:52:14 -0400 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. Message-ID: Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any recommendations for a '90s era PC that has PCI and > ISA slots? Ideally I'd like to have EISA slots too. ? At least I > think that's what I want. EISA is a nice-to-have, especially if you want to run multiple interfaces (much better irq handling than ISA) and/or higher speed stuff like FDDI, 100Mb enet, T-3/ATM, etc. Or you already have a cache of EISA cards. That said (and this is x86 specific, because there's a whole HPPA EISA world I don't know a lot about with all sorts of weird stuff): 1) PCI does a better job......usually. 2) EISA motherboards, desktop machines and fun/exotic network cards seem to be getting increasingly rare and ridiculously expensive, at least on evil auction sites. On the other hand, 10Mb EISA ethernet and scsi cards are chump change. 3) There are some interesting network things that just don't seem to have ever been made for EISA. For example, I've never heard of a fibre ethernet or HSSI card for EISA. 4) I think EISA limits you to 386 through PII CPUs (and probably PII as a PPro Overdrive upgrade outside of a server class machine). At least, I can't think of a P3 machine with EISA. YMMV. 5) The video card options are a bit thin on EISA. The Compaq QVision VGA is common as dirt (and just as dumb), but outside of that the ELSA Winner and ATI Mach32 are the only "real" graphics cards I seem to see often. There's probably some awful TIGA boards out there somewhere. Go PCI. I held on to a couple of Intel Xpress machines for the EISA bus. I doubt I'd pay the premium over a solid PCI/ISA machine. Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Depends on your CPU needs, but if you're willing to settle for P2/P3 era, > anything using the Intel i440BX or GX generally has very good ISA support. Yeah, but didn't the GX (and KX) have some pretty serious bugs until really late steppings? Same to a lesser extent with the NX. The BX (and FX) however was very reliable, as I recall. Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've long had a soft spot for the Pentium Pro. Yeah, me too. Great chip with a long useful life. I ran a couple of Intel PR440FX based machine for years past their expiration date because they kept up with the load and just wouldn't die. > A LONG time ago I saw an advertisement for a system that could accept six Pentium Pros. ALR Revolution server, probably. NCR and Corollary made 8-ways. > I /think/ it's a Compaq Deskpro XL 560 Great machine; built like a tank. Much better quality than the Xpress. I had an XL 6200 (200Mhz PPro) for many years and still regret getting rid of it. Lucky you you got yours back. The HP Vectra XU was also pretty nice. From cclist at sydex.com Mon May 7 23:07:50 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 May 2018 21:07:50 -0700 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 05/07/2018 07:52 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, but didn't the GX (and KX) have some pretty serious bugs until > really late steppings? Same to a lesser extent with the NX. The BX > (and FX) however was very reliable, as I recall. I can only speak for my SuperMicro dual slot-1 P3 board and 440GX. 2GB of server memory with both CPUs running at 1GHz. Never a hiccup on either XP and Linux. I can get the things to run at 120MHz FSB, but any higher than that, it gets squirrely. But then 440 was rated only for a 100MHz FSB. > Yeah, me too. Great chip with a long useful life. I ran a couple of > Intel PR440FX based machine for years past their expiration date > because they kept up with the load and just wouldn't die. P3s are a dime a dozen, still, so paying a premium for PPro doesn't make much sense today, unless someone just *gives* you a system. I can tell you what *not* to buy--I've got an FIC board with an Intel 820 chipset and used to have a server board with an 840 chipset. RDRAM--runs hot, expensive and not much better than much cheaper-find-it-under-your-bed-cheap SDRAM. And the 820/840 was well-known for infestation of bugs. Why Intel ever went down that road, I'll never know. > Great machine; built like a tank. Much better quality than the > Xpress. I had an XL 6200 (200Mhz PPro) for many years and still > regret getting rid of it. Lucky you you got yours back. The HP Vectra > XU was also pretty nice. It's hard to beat old Compaq stuff. I've got an old Deskpro tower with a P3 (upgraded with a slocket to 1.4GHz). 440BX chipset Nice thing--the expansion cards are on a slide-out sub-chassis. Heavy bugger, though. I liked some of the old HP towers as well for ease of access. --Chuck From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Mon May 7 23:36:42 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 00:36:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: HP 3000/37 console Message-ID: Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a HP 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my 37, the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the terminal, but fails to to speed sense. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 8 00:43:19 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 01:43:19 -0400 Subject: HP 3000/37 console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1633e46851d-1de7-6e5@webjas-vae247.srv.aolmail.net> has to be a hp term. as far as I know Mike.... or a,3ed party emulator. i imagine a pc running hp terminal software might work. ... walker ritcher quin REFLECTIONS. software might be OK too...... ,ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, May 7, 2018 Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a HP 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my 37, the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the terminal, but fails to to speed sense. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From dave at 661.org Tue May 8 03:15:43 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 08:15:43 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Catches and stubs from a Thinkpad optical drive Message-ID: I have a T420 which came with a DVD/CD burner. I later replaced this with a Bluray drive. To make the swap, I had to remove the side catch and rear stub from the drive. I'd like to swap back to the DVD drive just in case so as to avoid any needless wear on the blueray drive's mechanism. To do this, I'd like to get another catch and stub. The problem though, I don't know what these things are actually called, nor do I know of any sort of part number to look for. Does anyone here know anything useful on tracking down these things? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 8 12:05:28 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03ac50e5-a378-6b22-6126-d43a40be8c29@charter.net> On 5/6/2018 1:19 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 5, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 05/05/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >>> Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see >>> it temp but you would see core [driver] current. >> >> The early IBM 7000 series (7070, 7080, 7090) kept core in a >> temperature-regulated oil bath. Later versions used pre-heated air >> (e.g. 7094 core). >> >> On the CDC 7600, hitting the same area of care repeatedly could cause it >> to overheat and throw parity errors. Circuitry to detect this would >> slow-down repeated accesses. >> >> That was for CM. I seem to recall someone telling me that there was no >> such provision in PP core and a "jump to self" was sufficient to throw >> an error--but that may be a shaggy-dog story. > > The IBM 1620 had a core heater; I remember having to wait for core to warm up after turning the machine on before it would start. > > One of the old PDP-11 diagnostics is the "core heating test". The description said it would hammer a region of memory (physical area) to get it to warm up, to see if there was enough margin for memory to remain reliable. > > On CDC memory: The 6000 series PPs always access memory every cycle. Whenever it doesn'thave anything better to do, the control logic uses the P register (program counter) for address. So there is no way in a PP to make memory work any harder; it's always a cycle every microsecond (memory running flat out) no matter what. I'm not positive the 7000 series works the same, but it would seem plausible that it does. > > CM, on the other hand, is referenced only when requested. So CM is normally working less than PP memory. > > Parity? I know the 170 series had parity, didn't think the 7600 did. The 6000 series does not (except for ECS). "Parity is for farmers" -- Seymour Cray. > > paul > > You can add the IBM 1410 to that list of machines with core heaters as well - I checked the drawings. 100 watt heater, nominal 100 degrees F with 86F under temp and 120F over temp. I think the machine I worked with back in the day even had a thermometer placed vertically in the stack. I also worked one evening with some friends trying to fix a 7090 with oil core (which I know was heated), and we set up an IBM 7094-II (originally from White Sands Missle Range - WSMR) with air core (which I believe was heated) in the basement of the U. Wisconsin computer science building in 1974. We also had an IBM 1410 down there (donated from Oscar Mayer) whose core developed failures after some time in storage - it was pretty cold, so we guessed that it was from the wires contracting - not long enough for the enamel insulation to have degraded. I would expect the 1401 would also be on the list. JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 8 12:05:28 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:05:28 -0500 Subject: Old core memory system. In-Reply-To: References: <6789af27-ca9f-88cf-b3a9-735f39258e0d@gmail.com> Message-ID: <03ac50e5-a378-6b22-6126-d43a40be8c29@charter.net> On 5/6/2018 1:19 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 5, 2018, at 2:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 05/05/2018 10:23 AM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: >>> Core temp was a big issue even in commercial environments. You didn't see >>> it temp but you would see core [driver] current. >> >> The early IBM 7000 series (7070, 7080, 7090) kept core in a >> temperature-regulated oil bath. Later versions used pre-heated air >> (e.g. 7094 core). >> >> On the CDC 7600, hitting the same area of care repeatedly could cause it >> to overheat and throw parity errors. Circuitry to detect this would >> slow-down repeated accesses. >> >> That was for CM. I seem to recall someone telling me that there was no >> such provision in PP core and a "jump to self" was sufficient to throw >> an error--but that may be a shaggy-dog story. > > The IBM 1620 had a core heater; I remember having to wait for core to warm up after turning the machine on before it would start. > > One of the old PDP-11 diagnostics is the "core heating test". The description said it would hammer a region of memory (physical area) to get it to warm up, to see if there was enough margin for memory to remain reliable. > > On CDC memory: The 6000 series PPs always access memory every cycle. Whenever it doesn'thave anything better to do, the control logic uses the P register (program counter) for address. So there is no way in a PP to make memory work any harder; it's always a cycle every microsecond (memory running flat out) no matter what. I'm not positive the 7000 series works the same, but it would seem plausible that it does. > > CM, on the other hand, is referenced only when requested. So CM is normally working less than PP memory. > > Parity? I know the 170 series had parity, didn't think the 7600 did. The 6000 series does not (except for ECS). "Parity is for farmers" -- Seymour Cray. > > paul > > You can add the IBM 1410 to that list of machines with core heaters as well - I checked the drawings. 100 watt heater, nominal 100 degrees F with 86F under temp and 120F over temp. I think the machine I worked with back in the day even had a thermometer placed vertically in the stack. I also worked one evening with some friends trying to fix a 7090 with oil core (which I know was heated), and we set up an IBM 7094-II (originally from White Sands Missle Range - WSMR) with air core (which I believe was heated) in the basement of the U. Wisconsin computer science building in 1974. We also had an IBM 1410 down there (donated from Oscar Mayer) whose core developed failures after some time in storage - it was pretty cold, so we guessed that it was from the wires contracting - not long enough for the enamel insulation to have degraded. I would expect the 1401 would also be on the list. JRJ From sales at elecplus.com Tue May 8 13:49:46 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 13:49:46 -0500 Subject: Sparc Laptops Message-ID: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. WTS: (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU 2GB Memory 60GB Disk Complete and tested with AC Power Supply ?Make Offer george at datalease.com Best Regards, George Seldin Datalease Systems (714) 632-6986 x200 george at datalease.com Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From connork at connorsdomain.com Tue May 8 14:21:38 2018 From: connork at connorsdomain.com (connork at connorsdomain.com) Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 15:21:38 -0400 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> Message-ID: <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> Thanks Cindy, I have been looking for these machines since I have been working on an exhibit around the company who made these and also I know some people who have been looking for these things. Email sent directly to the seller. Thanks, -Connor Krukosky On 2018-05-08 14:49, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > WTS: > (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops > UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU > 2GB Memory > 60GB Disk > Complete and tested with AC Power Supply > ?Make Offer > > > > george at datalease.com > > > Best Regards, > George Seldin > Datalease Systems > (714) 632-6986 x200 > george at datalease.com > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From fmc at reanimators.org Tue May 8 14:27:26 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 12:27:26 -0700 Subject: HP 3000/37 console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On May 7, 2018, at 21:36, Mike Loewen wrote: > Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a HP 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my 37, the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the terminal, but fails to to speed sense. You can fake it by typing control-F (ACK) repeatedly from when you apply power to the 3000 until it starts sending text. But you will need to keep doing it as the firmware console code will keep doing ENQ/ACK every line or so for flow control after speed sensing. I just did this with an HP 3000 Micro GX, and Reflection 1 VT on an HP Portable Plus. It can be made to work but is not my idea of a good time. Good thing there is Reflection 1 HP in that Portable Plus too. -Frank McConnell From mazzinia at tin.it Tue May 8 15:09:51 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 22:09:51 +0200 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> Message-ID: <011201d3e708$86fd05c0$94f71140$@tin.it> Oh, very nice laptops. I think practically everybody here could be wanting one ( think I've never managed to see one showing up in europe ) -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Electronics Plus via cctalk Inviato: marted? 8 maggio 2018 20:50 A: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Oggetto: Sparc Laptops Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. WTS: (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU 2GB Memory 60GB Disk Complete and tested with AC Power Supply ?Make Offer george at datalease.com Best Regards, George Seldin Datalease Systems (714) 632-6986 x200 george at datalease.com Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 8 15:20:24 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 16:20:24 -0400 Subject: WTB or? HP 150 and HP 125 and hp 120 computers especaly want large scree touchscreen II 150! Message-ID: <16341698031-17a2-1966@webjas-vab007.srv.aolmail.net> WTB or? HP 150 and HP 125 and hp 120 computers especially?want large screen touchscreen II 150! ? also looking? for? rack? mount? hp 85? ?also looking? for? hp 86? / 87 ? any product and point of sale? display materials? for? there are? ?good to sell us? too.? ?they spice up? a? display. ? drop me? a note off list Ed Sharpe archivist??for SMECC ? ? ? ? ? From sales at elecplus.com Tue May 8 15:21:21 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 15:21:21 -0500 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> Message-ID: <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Connor Krukosky via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops Thanks Cindy, I have been looking for these machines since I have been working on an exhibit around the company who made these and also I know some people who have been looking for these things. Email sent directly to the seller. Thanks, -Connor Krukosky On 2018-05-08 14:49, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > WTS: > (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops > UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU > 2GB Memory > 60GB Disk > Complete and tested with AC Power Supply > ?Make Offer > > > > george at datalease.com > > > Best Regards, > George Seldin > Datalease Systems > (714) 632-6986 x200 > george at datalease.com > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mazzinia at tin.it Tue May 8 15:52:08 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 22:52:08 +0200 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> Message-ID: <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> Uh this is going to turn interesting... you mean it would be possible to get one very, very cheap ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Electronics Plus via cctalk Inviato: marted? 8 maggio 2018 22:21 A: connork at connorsdomain.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Oggetto: RE: Sparc Laptops I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Connor Krukosky via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 2:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops Thanks Cindy, I have been looking for these machines since I have been working on an exhibit around the company who made these and also I know some people who have been looking for these things. Email sent directly to the seller. Thanks, -Connor Krukosky On 2018-05-08 14:49, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > WTS: > (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops > UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU > 2GB Memory > 60GB Disk > Complete and tested with AC Power Supply > ?Make Offer > > > > george at datalease.com > > > Best Regards, > George Seldin > Datalease Systems > (714) 632-6986 x200 > george at datalease.com > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > AOL IM elcpls > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 8 15:58:20 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 16:58:20 -0400 Subject: wtb PC2K1-AA keyboard has blue trim and special WPS markings on the keys. Message-ID: <163418c3e76-17a6-1d46@webjas-vad159.srv.aolmail.net> wtb PC2K1-AA keyboard has blue trim and special WPS markings on the keys. reply offlist? please ? ed sharpe archivist?for smecc? From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue May 8 16:01:16 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 14:01:16 -0700 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> Message-ID: I am looking for the older SPARCbook laptops from Tadpole. I have been going back and forth this morning on whether to try and get one of those UltraSPARC laptops. alan On 5/8/18 1:21 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most > have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. > If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up > some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Connor > Krukosky via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 2:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops > > Thanks Cindy, > > I have been looking for these machines since I have been working on an > exhibit around the company who made these and also I know some people > who have been looking for these things. > Email sent directly to the seller. > > Thanks, > -Connor Krukosky > > On 2018-05-08 14:49, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. >> >> >> >> WTS: >> (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops >> UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU >> 2GB Memory >> 60GB Disk >> Complete and tested with AC Power Supply >> ?Make Offer >> >> >> >> george at datalease.com >> >> >> Best Regards, >> George Seldin >> Datalease Systems >> (714) 632-6986 x200 >> george at datalease.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> >> 1613 Water Street >> >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> >> 830-370-3239 cell >> >> sales at elecplus.com >> >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 8 23:00:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 22:00:20 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <29e713ae-bc8f-2287-94e9-117c7a2864bf@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/07/2018 08:52 PM, Ken Seefried via cctalk wrote: > EISA is a nice-to-have, especially if you want to run multiple interfaces > (much better irq handling than ISA) and/or higher speed stuff like FDDI, > 100Mb enet, T-3/ATM, etc. Or you already have a cache of EISA cards. > That said (and this is x86 specific, because there's a whole HPPA EISA > world I don't know a lot about with all sorts of weird stuff): Yep, that's what I'm thinking about doing. I had a cache of EISA cards before a ~1000 mile move. Now I'm looking at how much it might cost to reacquire a small portion of them and I'm weeping. > 1) PCI does a better job......usually. "usually" LOL > 2) EISA motherboards, desktop machines and fun/exotic network cards seem > to be getting increasingly rare and ridiculously expensive, at least > on evil auction sites. On the other hand, 10Mb EISA ethernet and scsi > cards are chump change. Yep. Part of my cache was NICs and SCSI HBAs. I also had some more exotic multi-port serial cards, with breakout cables / boxes. > 3) There are some interesting network things that just don't seem to > have ever been made for EISA. For example, I've never heard of a fibre > ethernet or HSSI card for EISA. I want to say that I've seen EISA fiber Ethernet cards. But I may be misremembering. > 4) I think EISA limits you to 386 through PII CPUs (and probably PII as > a PPro Overdrive upgrade outside of a server class machine). At least, > I can't think of a P3 machine with EISA. YMMV. I think that CPU range perfectly encompass the OSs that I'd want to run too. > 5) The video card options are a bit thin on EISA. The Compaq QVision VGA > is common as dirt (and just as dumb), but outside of that the ELSA Winner > and ATI Mach32 are the only "real" graphics cards I seem to see often. > There's probably some awful TIGA boards out there somewhere. Go PCI. ~chuckle~ I'm just after 2D, 256 color, 800x600, or maybe 1024x768. I don't think that's asking too much of a graphics card. Though I'm asking about it for a card later in that time frame. > I held on to a couple of Intel Xpress machines for the EISA bus. I doubt > I'd pay the premium over a solid PCI/ISA machine. ACK -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 8 23:02:38 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 22:02:38 -0600 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6ff9d034-951e-87c8-3eb6-b11e2a66bef0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/07/2018 10:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > P3s are a dime a dozen, still, so paying a premium for PPro doesn't make > much sense today, unless someone just *gives* you a system. Sadly, I have long had a soft spot for Pentium Pros. Which probably means that I'll pay through the nose for one some day. I wish that I still had one of the Compaq ProLiant 2500s that were dual P-Pros. (I don't know what they had for an expansion bus.) > It's hard to beat old Compaq stuff. I've got an old Deskpro tower with a > P3 (upgraded with a slocket to 1.4GHz). 440BX chipset Nice thing--the > expansion cards are on a slide-out sub-chassis. Heavy bugger, though. > I liked some of the old HP towers as well for ease of access. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spectre at floodgap.com Tue May 8 23:08:02 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 21:08:02 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> from Electronics Plus via cctalk at "May 8, 18 03:21:21 pm" Message-ID: <201805090408.w49482qA10747972@floodgap.com> > I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most > have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. > If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up > some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. That seems surprising, since everyone I know is after SPARC laptops of some kind and are willing to pay decent money. I have a Tadpole and the rebadged Sun Ultra-3 myself. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The only problem with Microsoft is they just have no taste. -- Steve Jobs -- From kevenm at 3kranger.com Tue May 8 08:15:47 2018 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 06:15:47 -0700 Subject: HP 3000/37 console References: Message-ID: <9B1064511B024ADBA2EA59A50AFBDF1E@ranger1> As Ed mentioned, I believe the CISC machines will need the ENQ/ACK. I thought that speed-sense was only on the CR. But the ENQ/ACK will happen every 80 chars sent. I think you can wait on it because it will timeout, and continue. Or when output pauses, you could type Control-F, as I recall. If you cannot get your hands on Reflection ( https://www.microfocus.com/products/reflection/ ) (took me a moment to find it, now that microfocus controls it) or Minisoft Win92/Secure92 (www.minisoft.com), or an hp terminal, you could try QC-Term. http://www.3kranger.com/Atmar/AICS_qcterm.shtm Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen via cctalk" To: Sent: Mon 07 May 2018 09:36 PM Subject: HP 3000/37 console > > Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a HP > 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but > the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my 37, > the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the terminal, > but fails to to speed sense. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From kevenm at 3kranger.com Tue May 8 08:21:26 2018 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 06:21:26 -0700 Subject: HP 3000/37 console References: Message-ID: <00A7EB949E2D45A2939A5C326BE98CAF@ranger1> Another quick thought, Putty ( https://www.putty.org/ ) has serial mode, and an AnswerBack for ENQ (Control-E). You could try using that, although HPterm escape sequences will not work. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Loewen via cctalk" To: Sent: Mon 07 May 2018 09:36 PM Subject: HP 3000/37 console > > Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a HP > 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but > the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my 37, > the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the terminal, > but fails to to speed sense. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue May 8 08:38:14 2018 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller(rtt)) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 06:38:14 -0700 Subject: HP 3000/37 console Message-ID: <9851ED575F6F480B91801577E6A1ACED@ranger1> (Retrying post, with different email.) As Ed mentioned, I believe the CISC machines will need the ENQ/ACK. I thought that speed-sense was only on the CR. But the ENQ/ACK will happen every 80 chars sent. I think you can wait on it because it will timeout, and continue. Or when output pauses, you could type Control-F, as I recall. If you cannot get your hands on Reflection ( https://www.microfocus.com/products/reflection/ ) (took me a moment to find it, now that microfocus controls it) or Minisoft Win92/Secure92 (www.minisoft.com), or an hp terminal, you could try QC-Term. http://www.3kranger.com/Atmar/AICS_qcterm.shtm Keven Miller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Loewen via cctalk" > To: > Sent: Mon 07 May 2018 09:36 PM > Subject: HP 3000/37 console > > >> >> Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a >> HP 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, >> but the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my >> 37, the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the >> terminal, but fails to to speed sense. >> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> > From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Tue May 8 08:38:54 2018 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller(rtt)) Date: Tue, 8 May 2018 06:38:54 -0700 Subject: HP 3000/37 console Message-ID: <8424BE966E314F24BA925E61130CB8F3@ranger1> (Retrying post with different email) Another quick thought, Putty ( https://www.putty.org/ ) has serial mode, and an AnswerBack for ENQ (Control-E). You could try using that, although HPterm escape sequences will not work. Keven Miller > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike Loewen via cctalk" > To: > Sent: Mon 07 May 2018 09:36 PM > Subject: HP 3000/37 console > > >> >> Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for a >> HP 3000 Series 37? The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, >> but the manual also implies that it will sense speed from a . On my >> 37, the TIC self-test passes up to the point where it talks to the >> terminal, but fails to to speed sense. >> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> > From web at loomcom.com Tue May 8 11:23:26 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 09:23:26 -0700 Subject: Old newsreader source code Message-ID: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source code for old news *readers*. I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. The oldest version I've found so far is nn 6.4, which is too big to compile on a 3B2/400. If I could get my hands on 6.1 or earlier, I think I'd have a good chance. I also found that trn 3.6 from 1994 works well enough, though it is fairly bloated. Earlier versions of that might be better. Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier sources squirreled away? As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you using? -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From jdbryan at acm.org Tue May 8 12:50:45 2018 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 08 May 2018 13:50:45 -0400 Subject: HP 3000/37 console In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tuesday, May 8, 2018 at 0:36, Mike Loewen via cctech wrote: > Does anyone know if a non-HP terminal will work as the console for > a HP 3000 Series 37? Page 3-7 ("Minimum Requirements for Terminals") of the "Series 37 System Processing Unit Self-Paced Hardware Training Guide" (32450-90001 June 1984) begins with: * The system console must be connected to port 0 on the TIC installed in slot 1 (channel 1) of the SPU. MPE and DUS expect this configuration. * The ENQ/ACK handshake capability must be present. That suggests that it won't. > The power-on self-test uses ENQ/ACK to speed sense, but the manual also > implies that it will sense speed from a . Page 7-27 (functional description of the TIC) says: Speed sensing is accomplished by executing an ENQ/ACK handshake with the connected device. [...] If there is no response after transmitting at all [eight] of the baud rates, the PCC senses the line waiting to receive a Carriage Return. [...] When the Carriage Return is received, the PCC will configure the port for the baud rate of the sending device. But perhaps this doesn't pertain to the system console, as it seems to contradict the requirement above. -- Dave From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 9 00:22:34 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 01:22:34 -0400 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source code for old news *readers*. I might try delving through comp.sources.unix of the period 1985-1989... > I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. I don't think I ever used nn. > I also found that trn 3.6 from 1994 works well enough, though it is fairly bloated. Earlier versions of that might be better. ISTR using 'trn' for a while, but not that late. Probably 1992 or 1993? > Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier sources squirreled away? I likely have backups of UNIX machines I used in the late 80s but not anywhere quickly accessible. They would be on 9-track tape (I have a working tsz07 SCSI tape drive for those times I need to read old tapes). It would definitely be faster to find public sources than my old backups. I would have used whatever was common for the day on BSD UNIX with no house mods. > As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you using? In 1989 I was running a UUCP box at work (Ultrix on a VAX-11/730) and UUCP on my Amiga at home. I didn't have a 300MB news spool and my max transfer speed was 2300 baud, so I wasn't running a full feed. My fingers remember 'rn' and 'trn' for UNIX news readers. I forget what I used on the Amiga, probably Matt Dillon's rn clone or perhaps tin. -ethan From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Wed May 9 00:47:08 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 01:47:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 12:23 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, > and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code > for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source > code for old news *readers*. > I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. I have a copy of nn-6.4.16 along with patches 17 and 18, archived from my old BBS directories. Shoot me a note off-list if you them. I recall using 'trn' as my goto reader, back in the day. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From abuse at cabal.org.uk Wed May 9 01:34:48 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:34:48 +0200 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <20180509063448.6t54paxrys5c7f36@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 09:23:26AM -0700, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: [...] > Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier > sources squirreled away? I likely have some on one of the various Unix shovelware CDs of the early 1990s. It's probably quicker for you to trawl archive.org looking for the ISOs than me trying to find my physical discs though :) > As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you > using? "rn" rings a vague bell, although I joined Usenet a few years later than that. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed May 9 02:00:53 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 00:00:53 -0700 Subject: FS: California Computer Systems Model 2210 S-100 system Message-ID: Hello Folks. I've listed a nice California Computer Systems S-100 computer for sale. Details are here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63588-California-Computer-Systems-Model-2210-S-100-system Thanks! Sellam P.S. If you're waiting on something from me, know that I have not forgotten about you, just took most of the last month to setup and plant the garden. I am getting back up to speed and will respond to everyone and pick up where we left off promptly, but feel free to nudge me if you somehow fall through the cracks and are neglected. Forgive me, and please know it is not intentional. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed May 9 04:18:39 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 11:18:39 +0200 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> Message-ID: <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 03:21:21PM -0500, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most > have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. > If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up > some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love an Alphabook! http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ Thank you, Pontus From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 9 07:49:11 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 12:49:11 +0000 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On 05/08/2018 12:23 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk wrote: > I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source code for old news *readers*. > > I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. The oldest version I've found so far is nn 6.4, which is too big to compile on a 3B2/400. If I could get my hands on 6.1 or earlier, I think I'd have a good chance. > > I also found that trn 3.6 from 1994 works well enough, though it is fairly bloated. Earlier versions of that might be better. > > Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier sources squirreled away? > > As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you using? > > Have you tried looking at the archives of things like comp.sources.unix or the other comp.sources groups? First news server I used was on a 3B2 back in the early 80's. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 9 08:15:45 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 13:15:45 +0000 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> Message-ID: If they were cheap enough I would take a couple, too.? Haven't used a Sparc in quite some time but always liked the architecture. bill On 05/08/2018 04:52 PM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > Uh this is going to turn interesting... you mean it would be possible to get > one very, very cheap ? > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Electronics > Plus via cctalk > Inviato: marted? 8 maggio 2018 22:21 > A: connork at connorsdomain.com; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts' > Oggetto: RE: Sparc Laptops > > I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most > have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. > If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up > some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Connor > Krukosky via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 2:22 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops > > Thanks Cindy, > > I have been looking for these machines since I have been working on an > exhibit around the company who made these and also I know some people > who have been looking for these things. > Email sent directly to the seller. > > Thanks, > -Connor Krukosky > > On 2018-05-08 14:49, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> Maybe not old enough? Not affiliated with seller, etc. >> >> >> >> WTS: >> (6) Like new Tadpole/RDI/Cycle UltraSPARC II/e Laptops >> UltraSPARC 500MHz CPU >> 2GB Memory >> 60GB Disk >> Complete and tested with AC Power Supply >> ?Make Offer >> >> >> >> george at datalease.com >> >> >> Best Regards, >> George Seldin >> Datalease Systems >> (714) 632-6986 x200 >> george at datalease.com >> >> >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> Electronics Plus >> >> 1613 Water Street >> >> Kerrville, TX 78028 >> >> 830-370-3239 cell >> >> sales at elecplus.com >> >> AOL IM elcpls >> >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus From ben at bensinclair.com Wed May 9 08:21:40 2018 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:21:40 -0500 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> Message-ID: I'd be interested as well if any are left. I sold a Sparcbook a while back that was missing the hard drive caddy. I just couldn't find a caddy and had a random buyer that wanted it for a museum. It did have it netbooting though, and they are fun machines! On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 8:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If they were cheap enough I would take a couple, too. Haven't > > used a Sparc in quite some time but always liked the architecture. > > > bill > > > > On 05/08/2018 04:52 PM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > > Uh this is going to turn interesting... you mean it would be possible to > get > > one very, very cheap ? > > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From mj at mjturner.net Wed May 9 09:46:35 2018 From: mj at mjturner.net (Michael-John Turner) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 15:46:35 +0100 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <6ff9d034-951e-87c8-3eb6-b11e2a66bef0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6ff9d034-951e-87c8-3eb6-b11e2a66bef0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <20180509144635.xemqlebked4orh6i@saucer.turnde.net> On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 10:02:38PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >Sadly, I have long had a soft spot for Pentium Pros. Which probably >means that I'll pay through the nose for one some day. You're not the only one :) I've owned a few over the years, including a Dell Optiplex GXpro that was my home firewall for a while and a quad Pentium Pro IBM Netfinity 8651. It was loud, but a lovely machine. Cheers, MJ -- Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 9 10:42:51 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:42:51 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> from Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk at "May 9, 18 11:18:39 am" Message-ID: <201805091542.w49FgpVG12714130@floodgap.com> > > I have to laugh. The Sun dealers think these are absolute junk, and most > > have been destroyed. I was warned to avoid Sun laptops at all costs. > > If more are wanted than these 6 please let me know. Maybe I can scare up > > some more. I know the recyclers just kill them as useless old junk. > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > an Alphabook! > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ The Alphabook is the one I'm missing too. I have a PrecisionBook (a delightful machine) and a SPARCbook, but not the Alphabook. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- The new Tourette Syndrome movie: Twitch and Shout! -- John Waters ---------- From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 9 10:46:39 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 08:46:39 -0700 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > an Alphabook! > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > Thank you, > Pontus I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream anyway. I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. Zane From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 9 12:08:51 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 13:08:51 -0400 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium laptop before they were bought out. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg b On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > > an Alphabook! > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > > > > Thank you, > > Pontus > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > anyway. > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > Zane > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed May 9 12:29:02 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 10:29:02 -0700 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: Next time I am in the storage building, I will bring the box marked "Tadpole" home with me and see how much is inside it. Then will see about finding it a new home May take a month .... -pete On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > > > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > > > an Alphabook! > > > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Pontus > > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > > From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 9 12:31:24 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 11:31:24 -0600 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I have a DEC Pentium 200 Laptop... It appears to be like this hinote https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Digital-HiNote-VP-Laptop-Notebook-PC-Windows-95-Pentium-200MHz-MMX-32MB/362199249233?hash=item5454c1f151:g:tGUAAOSwrFtaRriI Warner On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > > > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > > > an Alphabook! > > > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Pontus > > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > From taborj at obsolete.site Wed May 9 11:35:41 2018 From: taborj at obsolete.site (Jon Tabor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 09:35:41 -0700 Subject: '90s era PC recommendation. In-Reply-To: <20180509144635.xemqlebked4orh6i@saucer.turnde.net> References: <6ff9d034-951e-87c8-3eb6-b11e2a66bef0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <20180509144635.xemqlebked4orh6i@saucer.turnde.net> Message-ID: <20180509163541.wxzvpa5ejaunmtni@hotspur.obsolete.site> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 03:46:35PM +0100, Michael-John Turner via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 08, 2018 at 10:02:38PM -0600, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Sadly, I have long had a soft spot for Pentium Pros. Which probably > > means that I'll pay through the nose for one some day. > > You're not the only one :) I've owned a few over the years, including a > Dell Optiplex GXpro that was my home firewall for a while and a quad > Pentium Pro IBM Netfinity 8651. It was loud, but a lovely machine. > > Cheers, MJ > -- > Michael-John Turner * mj at mjturner.net * http://mjturner.net/ > I love those, too. I remember purchasing a Micron full-height server back in the day with a Micronics W6-LI dual PPro board. Bought it with a single 180MHz chip, and later upgraded to dual 200MHz chips. As with all the machines I've sold, I never should have let it go. --- Jon Tabor taborj at obsolete.site http://obsolete.site From gordon+cctalk at drogon.net Wed May 9 12:30:24 2018 From: gordon+cctalk at drogon.net (Gordon Henderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 18:30:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2018, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > I recall using 'trn' as my goto reader, back in the day. Some of us still use trn to this day.... Gordon From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed May 9 13:17:41 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 18:17:41 +0000 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> From: Seth Morabito Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 9:23 AM > As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you > using? 1988-89 is about when I started reading Usenet newsgroups. At first, I used rn under Ultrix (on a VAX 3600, the staff Ultrix system at LOTS), but soon switched to Gnews (different from GNUS) under Emacs 18.59 because it saved messages into an RMail format mailbox file for later access. Once I had that I almost never used any of the Unix-y newsreaders. (I had to switch to GNUS when Emacs 19 came out, but that's another story.) Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 9 13:51:45 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 18:51:45 +0000 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> , Message-ID: I have a Tadpole S1 but before I could so much the disk drive stopped working. I've not had much time to figure out what the problem was. It acts like it isn't getting power to the drive but I've not been able to get schematics for that part of the machine. I have schematics for the processor part ( that is working fine ) but nothing for the I/O bus part. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 10:31:24 AM To: Bill Degnan; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops I have a DEC Pentium 200 Laptop... It appears to be like this hinote https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Digital-HiNote-VP-Laptop-Notebook-PC-Windows-95-Pentium-200MHz-MMX-32MB/362199249233?hash=item5454c1f151:g:tGUAAOSwrFtaRriI Warner On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > > > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > > > an Alphabook! > > > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Pontus > > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 9 13:52:34 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 18:52:34 +0000 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On 05/09/2018 02:17 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: Seth Morabito > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 9:23 AM > >> As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you >> using? > 1988-89 is about when I started reading Usenet newsgroups. At first, I used > rn under Ultrix (on a VAX 3600, the staff Ultrix system at LOTS), but soon > switched to Gnews (different from GNUS) under Emacs 18.59 because it saved > messages into an RMail format mailbox file for later access. Once I had that I > almost never used any of the Unix-y newsreaders. > > (I had to switch to GNUS when Emacs 19 came out, but that's another story.) > > By 1989 I was using Knews as most of what I did was on real workstations.? I am using Thunderbird at the moment but am seriously thinking about going back to Knews. bill From mazzinia at tin.it Wed May 9 13:56:07 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 20:56:07 +0200 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <012401d3e7c7$64422140$2cc663c0$@tin.it> Remote storaging ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pete Lancashire via cctalk Inviato: mercoled? 9 maggio 2018 19:29 A: Bill Degnan; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: Re: Sparc Laptops Next time I am in the storage building, I will bring the box marked "Tadpole" home with me and see how much is inside it. Then will see about finding it a new home May take a month .... -pete On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 10:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > On May 9, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Let's hope that can change and we can save some of them. Anything > > > non-x86 from Tadpole is interesting for many here I think. I would love > > > an Alphabook! > > > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/47766/Tadpole-Alphabook-1/ > > > > > > > > > Thank you, > > > Pontus > > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > > From fmc at reanimators.org Wed May 9 16:23:14 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 14:23:14 -0700 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> On May 8, 2018, at 9:23, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source code for old news *readers*. > > I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. The oldest version I've found so far is nn 6.4, which is too big to compile on a 3B2/400. If I could get my hands on 6.1 or earlier, I think I'd have a good chance. > > I also found that trn 3.6 from 1994 works well enough, though it is fairly bloated. Earlier versions of that might be better. > > Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier sources squirreled away? It occurred to me (and before I saw Peter Corlett?s post) to go looking for some of the old CD-ROMs that have been uploaded to archive.org, and I found this one: https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92 "Source Code CDROM? I think it has two versions of nn, 6.4 (from 1990, in UNIX_C/USENET) and 6.3 (from 1989, in USENET/COMPSRCS/UNIX/VOLUME19). Which makes me think that older versions will likely predate the CD-ROM era if they can be found at all. I get the idea that nn may not have escaped from Europe until that comp.sources.unix release of 6.3 in 1989. > As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you using? rn on SunOS, from about 1986 or 1987, on differing hosts. In all cases other folks installed it and I did not notice what versions were involved. Continued with it until 1992 when I switched to GNUS on a SPARCstation. Between 1994 and 1997 I ran strn on a Sun 3/60 which was also running C News with news delivery via uucp, but switched to Gnus when I built a new system with a PC and FreeBSD. -Frank McConnell From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 9 16:33:54 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 21:33:54 +0000 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> Message-ID: Just a quick look at http://sources.vsta.org/comp.sources.unix/ found "rn version 4.3" from 1985 in volume 1. Others may be available if you look thru the archive. bill On 05/09/2018 05:23 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: On May 8, 2018, at 9:23, Seth Morabito wrote: I'm experimenting with setting up UUCP and Usenet on a cluster of 3B2/400s, and I've quickly discovered that while it's trivial to find old source code for Usenet (B News and C News), it's virtually impossible to find source code for old news *readers*. I'm looking especially for nn, which was my go-to at the time. The oldest version I've found so far is nn 6.4, which is too big to compile on a 3B2/400. If I could get my hands on 6.1 or earlier, I think I'd have a good chance. I also found that trn 3.6 from 1994 works well enough, though it is fairly bloated. Earlier versions of that might be better. Does anyone have better Google-fu than I do? Or perhaps you've got earlier sources squirreled away? It occurred to me (and before I saw Peter Corlett?s post) to go looking for some of the old CD-ROMs that have been uploaded to archive.org, and I found this one: https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92 "Source Code CDROM? I think it has two versions of nn, 6.4 (from 1990, in UNIX_C/USENET) and 6.3 (from 1989, in USENET/COMPSRCS/UNIX/VOLUME19). Which makes me think that older versions will likely predate the CD-ROM era if they can be found at all. I get the idea that nn may not have escaped from Europe until that comp.sources.unix release of 6.3 in 1989. As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you using? rn on SunOS, from about 1986 or 1987, on differing hosts. In all cases other folks installed it and I did not notice what versions were involved. Continued with it until 1992 when I switched to GNUS on a SPARCstation. Between 1994 and 1997 I ran strn on a Sun 3/60 which was also running C News with news delivery via uucp, but switched to Gnus when I built a new system with a PC and FreeBSD. -Frank McConnell From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed May 9 16:38:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 15:38:20 -0600 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <93b5f138-5bc5-307c-090f-607589b01dbb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/09/2018 03:23 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > It occurred to me (and before I saw Peter Corlett?s post) to go looking > for some of the old CD-ROMs that have been uploaded to archive.org, > and I found this one: > > https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92 While browsing through the file_listings-ls.txt file I noticed the following: 13266 200 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 204800 Feb 26 1989 ./unix_c/editors/teco.tar Which jogged my a memory that someone was looking for a copy of TECO. Now to find the message that I'm remembering. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mtapley at swri.edu Wed May 9 16:58:31 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 21:58:31 +0000 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <93b5f138-5bc5-307c-090f-607589b01dbb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <0CA457C4-5318-482C-8181-08EFF37DE976@reanimators.org> <93b5f138-5bc5-307c-090f-607589b01dbb@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On May 9, 2018, at 4:38 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/09/2018 03:23 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: >> It occurred to me (and before I saw Peter Corlett?s post) to go looking for some of the old CD-ROMs that have been uploaded to archive.org, and I found this one: >> https://archive.org/details/CDROM_March92 > > While browsing through the file_listings-ls.txt file I noticed the following: > > 13266 200 -r-xr-xr-x 1 root root 204800 Feb 26 1989 ./unix_c/editors/teco.tar > > Which jogged my a memory that someone was looking for a copy of TECO. Now to find the message that I'm remembering. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die I recalled using NewsGrazer quite a bit on my NeXT. Source not available, but I did spot the alternative ?Alexandra? which does include source code: http://www.mulle-kybernetik.com/software/Alexandra/html/Download.html or http://www.nextcomputers.org/NeXTfiles/Software/NEXTSTEP/Apps/Internet/News/ Source available under GNU public license. I have no good idea what the effort would be to port this to your favorite platform; possibly prohibitive. I hope it?s useful in at least some fashion. - Mark From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 9 18:51:33 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 16:51:33 -0700 Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card Message-ID: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm/163039837440 obviously NOT used.. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 9 22:47:41 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 23:47:41 -0400 Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card In-Reply-To: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> References: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <16348295f62-1dd7-ca71@webjas-vae186.srv.aolmail.net> bought some,at a computer Faire in silicon val. that did not even have the buss and flag goodies you see on that one.. had 20 wish I still had some more.. we used them to build voice cards for 1000 systems using national digitalker... chip set and would haunch along with heat treating furnaces...etc. ah memories! still have the 1st proto... talker card here.. though having a limited vocab. the 2000 access that this card finally rested in could say some rude stuff... trying to remember if we addressed itc as,a,pinch or a printer ed www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: https://www.ebay.com/itm/163039837440 obviously NOT used.. From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Wed May 9 13:57:34 2018 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 11:57:34 -0700 Subject: Old core memory system. Message-ID: <3E2A6077-E713-4274-AB92-AAF087A34300@donaldwhittemore.com> My 360/65 panel has the control panel for Fabri-Tek add-on memory on the left side. http://www.myimagecollection.com/webpics/65panel.jpg From taborj at obsolete.site Wed May 9 13:53:08 2018 From: taborj at obsolete.site (Jon Tabor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 11:53:08 -0700 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <20180509091839.GC15779@Update.UU.SE> <9D33345C-8937-47B8-B061-B2E89AE2EDB0@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <20180509185308.zlt6rjvq24r3m6rr@hotspur.obsolete.site> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:31:24AM -0600, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > I have a DEC Pentium 200 Laptop... It appears to be like this hinote > https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-Digital-HiNote-VP-Laptop-Notebook-PC-Windows-95-Pentium-200MHz-MMX-32MB/362199249233?hash=item5454c1f151:g:tGUAAOSwrFtaRriI > > Warner > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > > laptop before they were bought out. > > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > > b > > > I had a Digital HiNote Ultra II that I bought new just coming out of high school back in '96. If I recall correctly, it had a Pentium 100MHz CPU. I think I had it up to 32MB of RAM, don't recall the hard drive, but it had a funky wedge-shaped detatchable 3.5" floppy drive that went underneath it. Cool system; I remember running some version of Linux on it after I got tired of Windows 95. With the floppy detatched, it was very thin. I remember going for it over some Toshiba (I think) because it had a better screen, despite the slightly slower processor (the other was 133MHz). -- Jon Tabor taborj at obsolete.site http://obsolete.site From taborj at obsolete.site Wed May 9 13:55:53 2018 From: taborj at obsolete.site (Jon Tabor) Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 11:55:53 -0700 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <20180509185553.o26uqfijlblk3mjj@hotspur.obsolete.site> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 06:52:34PM +0000, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 05/09/2018 02:17 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > From: Seth Morabito > > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 9:23 AM > > > >> As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you > >> using? > > 1988-89 is about when I started reading Usenet newsgroups. At first, I used > > rn under Ultrix (on a VAX 3600, the staff Ultrix system at LOTS), but soon > > switched to Gnews (different from GNUS) under Emacs 18.59 because it saved > > messages into an RMail format mailbox file for later access. Once I had that I > > almost never used any of the Unix-y newsreaders. > > > > (I had to switch to GNUS when Emacs 19 came out, but that's another story.) > > > > > > By 1989 I was using Knews as most of what I did was on real > workstations.? I am using Thunderbird at the moment but am > seriously thinking about going back to Knews. > > bill > 1989 was a bit before my time, Usenet-wise (I was still hitting the BBS scene at the time), but around '93-94 when I got my first Unix shell account, I recall using nn, but not terribly often (I mean, gopher was _right there_ for the taking!). These days I use slrn from an OpenBSD box. -- Jon Tabor taborj at obsolete.site http://obsolete.site From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 10 08:18:16 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 06:18:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 May 2018, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: Seth Morabito > Sent: Tuesday, May 08, 2018 9:23 AM > >> As an aside: If you were active on Usenet in 1989, what software were you >> using? > > 1988-89 is about when I started reading Usenet newsgroups. At first, I used > rn under Ultrix (on a VAX 3600, the staff Ultrix system at LOTS), but soon > switched to Gnews (different from GNUS) under Emacs 18.59 because it saved > messages into an RMail format mailbox file for later access. Once I had that I > almost never used any of the Unix-y newsreaders. > Rich, if you point a reader at nttp.olduse.net, you can start reading in 1988 again. :) The most recent messages posted are from 05/10/88. The messages that appear on the server are exactly 30 years behind the current date. It's pretty cool. Last year was the Great Renaming. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 10 09:29:06 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:29:06 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? Message-ID: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually constructed) managed to be. What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic calculating machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van Wijngaarden at the Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite a fascinating short introduction into computing technology of that era. (One comment in the intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is the only working machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some classified machines, but not too far wrong.) The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could hold maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but it sure doesn't sound easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the logic, even in the days of vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a couple of microseconds. As one more way to speed things up he suggests having multiple rows of read/write heads, where the addressed word would be picked up by whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would give you 50 microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel computer would be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. paul From grif615 at mindspring.com Thu May 10 09:37:43 2018 From: grif615 at mindspring.com (Grif) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 07:37:43 -0700 (GMT-07:00) Subject: how fast were drum memories? Message-ID: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> I wonder how the late generation paging disks (fixed head per track) like DG used in the 80's compared? -----Original Message----- >From: Paul Koning via cctalk >Sent: May 10, 2018 7:29 AM >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >Subject: how fast were drum memories? > >Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually constructed) managed to be. > >What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic calculating machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van Wijngaarden at the Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite a fascinating short introduction into computing technology of that era. (One comment in the intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is the only working machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some classified machines, but not too far wrong.) > >The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could hold maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but it sure doesn't sound easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the logic, even in the days of vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a couple of microseconds. As one more way to speed things up he suggests having multiple rows of read/write heads, where the addressed word would be picked up by whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would give you 50 microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel computer would be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) > >I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. > > paul > From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu May 10 09:48:08 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:48:08 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: There are two places I'd check. The manual for the Royal McBee LGP-30 and the book Computer Structures: Readings and Examples by G Bell et al. Bill On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:37 AM, Grif via cctalk wrote: > > I wonder how the late generation paging disks (fixed head per track) like > DG used in the 80's compared? > > -----Original Message----- > >From: Paul Koning via cctalk > >Sent: May 10, 2018 7:29 AM > >To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >Subject: how fast were drum memories? > > > >Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as > secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually > constructed) managed to be. > > > >What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: > https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic > calculating machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van > Wijngaarden at the Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite > a fascinating short introduction into computing technology of that era. > (One comment in the intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is > the only working machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some > classified machines, but not too far wrong.) > > > >The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly > possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm > diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could > hold maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so > good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 > revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I > could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but > it sure doesn't sound easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the > logic, even in the days of vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a > couple of microseconds. As one more way to speed things up he suggests > having multiple rows of read/write heads, where the addressed word would be > picked up by whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would > give you 50 microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel > computer would be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) > > > >I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and > whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in > thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the > stress numbers, but haven't done so. > > > > paul > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 09:57:32 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 07:57:32 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> Message-ID: <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> On 05/10/2018 07:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. All of the STAR-100 stations, including the paging station used drums. Jim Thornton and folks at CDC ADL were working on a 100K RPM drum spinning in vacuo for a paging store, but they couldn't get it to work reliably. At any rate, STAR was the last system I saw fast drums on and you can check the figures in the Bitsavers documentation under cdc/cyber/cyber200. At any rate, a head-per-track drum could be much faster than a disk. There were big slow drums, also. Consider the Univac FASTRAND unit. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 10:24:55 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 08:24:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <20180509185553.o26uqfijlblk3mjj@hotspur.obsolete.site> from Jon Tabor via cctalk at "May 9, 18 11:55:53 am" Message-ID: <201805101524.w4AFOtcJ26083422@floodgap.com> > 1989 was a bit before my time, Usenet-wise (I was still hitting the BBS scene > at the time), but around '93-94 when I got my first Unix shell account, I > recall using nn, but not terribly often (I mean, gopher was _right there_ for > the taking!). Another vote for nn (and, for that matter, Gopher). I still use nn on AIX but I don't read a lot of Usenet these days. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- ASK ME ABOUT MY VOW OF SILENCE!!!! ----------------------------------------- From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 10 10:30:30 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 09:30:30 -0600 Subject: UUCP "bag" files Message-ID: <2c6ed291-9b71-31c3-a58c-d01261e03913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Does anyone know why UUCP "bag" files are called "bag"? Thanks in advance. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu May 10 10:33:25 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:33:25 +0200 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20180510153325.nagxefz5tfbwghxg@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:29:06AM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > [...] So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at > 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I > could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but > it sure doesn't sound easy. Looking at modern hard disks, I'm unconvinced we could even mass-produce something like that today. A 40mm radius is comparable to a 3.5" disk, which are generally 5,400-7,200 RPM. 15,000 RPM is the fastest available, but those tend to be low-capacity and expensive, and are often 2.5" drives with a huge heatsink. We could perhaps rotate a very narrow smaller cylinder faster still but then the capacity suffers further, and the seek time would start to dominate. From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 10 10:51:26 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 11:51:26 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1634abffaec-17a3-f039@webjas-vae219.srv.aolmail.net> SOME OTHER? DRUM? USE? AS? I REMEMBER IT...... ?FOR? STORAGE?HP 2000A TIMESHARE SYSTEM? USED? AS? DRUM? ? AS? SYSTEMS? WERE UPGRADED?AND DISCS ADDED??FOR? 2000C? ETC THRU F? ?SOME KEPT THEIR? DRUM? AS? SWAPPING? MEDIA. AS? ?THE HEARD PER TRACK?WAS? FASTER THAN? ?MOVING HEAD? FOR? USER? SPACE? AREA? SWAPPING ----? AMD -------AND? SOME OF THE GE-PAC? PROCESS CONTROL STUFF? USED? VERMONT? RESEARCH? ?DRUMS...? ED#? ? In a message dated 5/10/2018 7:29:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually constructed) managed to be. What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic calculating machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van Wijngaarden at the Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite a fascinating short introduction into computing technology of that era. (One comment in the intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is the only working machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some classified machines, but not too far wrong.) The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could hold maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but it sure doesn't sound easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the logic, even in the days of vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a couple of microseconds. As one more way to speed things up he suggests having multiple rows of read/write heads, where the addressed word would be picked up by whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would give you 50 microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel computer would be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:52:46 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 11:52:46 -0400 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 9:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Rich, if you point a reader at nttp.olduse.net, you can start reading in > 1988 again. :) The most recent messages posted are from 05/10/88. The > messages that appear on the server are exactly 30 years behind the current > date. It's pretty cool. Last year was the Great Renaming. :) Oh, man... I was around for that. I was just learning the ropes and then the entire world changed. I was on an Ultrix machine and not quite dialled into all the latest things like the cool kids on the leading edge, so I remember struggling with the now-obsolete Netnews package and trying to figure out why all my news was going into "junk" - it was because the default catalog file (I forget the name) had all the old newsgroup names and I didn't have an easy way to get a new one. ISTR one of my friends at Ohio State let me Kermit into his box to pick up a copy directly from him and that fixed me right up. When Google put Usenet archives online in 2001, this subject came up - I can't find any of my posts from net.micro.amiga, but I was there. I got an Amiga and got on Usenet about the same time, in 1986. It's possible I was reading news in late 1985, but I was running a news server at work by 1986. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 10 10:52:47 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 11:52:47 -0400 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 9:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Rich, if you point a reader at nttp.olduse.net, you can start reading in > 1988 again. :) The most recent messages posted are from 05/10/88. The > messages that appear on the server are exactly 30 years behind the current > date. It's pretty cool. Last year was the Great Renaming. :) Oh, man... I was around for that. I was just learning the ropes and then the entire world changed. I was on an Ultrix machine and not quite dialled into all the latest things like the cool kids on the leading edge, so I remember struggling with the now-obsolete Netnews package and trying to figure out why all my news was going into "junk" - it was because the default catalog file (I forget the name) had all the old newsgroup names and I didn't have an easy way to get a new one. ISTR one of my friends at Ohio State let me Kermit into his box to pick up a copy directly from him and that fixed me right up. When Google put Usenet archives online in 2001, this subject came up - I can't find any of my posts from net.micro.amiga, but I was there. I got an Amiga and got on Usenet about the same time, in 1986. It's possible I was reading news in late 1985, but I was running a news server at work by 1986. -ethan From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 10 10:57:38 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 09:57:38 -0600 Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <8c096a68-fc1b-f8f3-8b04-742f8ac36d55@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/10/2018 07:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > Rich, if you point a reader at nttp.olduse.net, you can start reading in > 1988 again. :)? The most recent messages posted are from 05/10/88.? The > messages that appear on the server are exactly 30 years behind the > current date.? It's pretty cool.? Last year was the Great Renaming. :) Part of me wants to find out what corpus of articles they are using and try to get a copy of it. I'd like to back fill my private news server with old articles. (I'd likely use the local distribution so that my server didn't try to feed them to any peers.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From elson at pico-systems.com Thu May 10 11:12:01 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 11:12:01 -0500 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5AF46F51.4090202@pico-systems.com> On 05/10/2018 09:57 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Jim Thornton and folks at CDC ADL were working on a 100K > RPM drum spinning in vacuo for a paging store, but they > couldn't get it to work reliably. Anything with high bit density needs to have the heads very close to the data surface. With the heads close, you really need to have aerodynamic flying heads to compensate for thermal and other variations in the mechanical system. So, I really have doubts the evacuated drum is going to work. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 10 11:22:31 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:22:31 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1E7CB366-B6A0-403F-8D5D-97D6CBF2D78A@comcast.net> > On May 10, 2018, at 10:57 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 05/10/2018 07:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. > > All of the STAR-100 stations, including the paging station used drums. > > Jim Thornton and folks at CDC ADL were working on a 100K RPM drum > spinning in vacuo for a paging store, but they couldn't get it to work > reliably. At any rate, STAR was the last system I saw fast drums on > and you can check the figures in the Bitsavers documentation under > cdc/cyber/cyber200. At any rate, a head-per-track drum could be much > faster than a disk. Faster than a moving head disk, certainly, though head per track disks also existed. DEC had some fast ones -- RS04 comes to mind. I looked at the Star peripherals manual. It describes the paging drum as a modified 865 drum, which "rotates at 1800 rpm". So it might have a high transfer rate -- 12 bit words in parallel from 12 heads -- but clearly quite high latency. paul From harper at secureoutcomes.net Thu May 10 10:15:19 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 09:15:19 -0600 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> The Univac FASTRAND *was* slow. You could stand there watching through the window on the side of the 5,000-pound beast and actually see the enormous drum rotating as it lumbered along at, what, 14 RPS I think. Regards to the List - Jack At 08:57 AM 5/10/2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >On 05/10/2018 07:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, > and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I > right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I > know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. > >All of the STAR-100 stations, including the paging station used drums. > >Jim Thornton and folks at CDC ADL were working on a 100K RPM drum >spinning in vacuo for a paging store, but they couldn't get it to work >reliably. At any rate, STAR was the last system I saw fast drums on >and you can check the figures in the Bitsavers documentation under >cdc/cyber/cyber200. At any rate, a head-per-track drum could be much >faster than a disk. > >There were big slow drums, also. Consider the Univac FASTRAND unit. > >--Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 10 11:29:32 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:29:32 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: > On May 10, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Grif wrote: > > > I wonder how the late generation paging disks (fixed head per track) like DG used in the 80's compared? One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). Transfer rate is 0.5 megabytes per second, but still, at that RPM, average latency is 8.5 ms. paul From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 10 11:36:52 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:36:52 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <1634abffaec-17a3-f039@webjas-vae219.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1634abffaec-17a3-f039@webjas-vae219.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1634ae994ad-1db9-f37d@webjas-vad020.srv.aolmail.net> added hp2000a info when drum was only rotating media it was used for swap and also program storage..... kids,using a 2000a hp had a bit to tape punching to savesave their programs... as the drum did not hold a lot ed# www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Thursday, May 10, 2018 Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: SOME OTHER? DRUM? USE? AS? I REMEMBER IT...... ?FOR? STORAGE?HP 2000A TIMESHARE SYSTEM? USED? AS? DRUM? ? AS? SYSTEMS? WERE UPGRADED?AND DISCS ADDED??FOR? 2000C? ETC THRU F? ?SOME KEPT THEIR? DRUM? AS? SWAPPING? MEDIA. AS? ?THE HEARD PER TRACK?WAS? FASTER THAN? ?MOVING HEAD? FOR? USER? SPACE? AREA? SWAPPING ----? AMD -------AND? SOME OF THE GE-PAC? PROCESS CONTROL STUFF? USED? VERMONT? RESEARCH? ?DRUMS...? ED#? ? In a message dated 5/10/2018 7:29:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually constructed) managed to be. What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic calculating machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van Wijngaarden at the Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite a fascinating short introduction into computing technology of that era. (One comment in the intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is the only working machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some classified machines, but not too far wrong.) The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could hold maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but it sure doesn't sound easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the logic, even in the days of vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a couple of microseconds. As one more way to speed things up he suggests having multiple rows of read/write heads, where the addressed word would be picked up by whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would give you 50 microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel computer would be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress numbers, but haven't done so. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu May 10 11:44:31 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:44:31 -0400 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180510153325.nagxefz5tfbwghxg@mooli.org.uk> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <20180510153325.nagxefz5tfbwghxg@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <1F44BF08-6F3B-4B83-8F54-0524D95BC6F2@comcast.net> > On May 10, 2018, at 11:33 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 10:29:06AM -0400, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> [...] So far so good. He goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at >> 1000 revolutions per second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I >> could see it being physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but >> it sure doesn't sound easy. > > Looking at modern hard disks, I'm unconvinced we could even mass-produce > something like that today. > > A 40mm radius is comparable to a 3.5" disk, which are generally 5,400-7,200 > RPM. 15,000 RPM is the fastest available, but those tend to be low-capacity and > expensive, and are often 2.5" drives with a huge heatsink. We could perhaps > rotate a very narrow smaller cylinder faster still but then the capacity > suffers further, and the seek time would start to dominate. Drums are head per track devices, so there is no seek. Yes, modern drives do 10k rpm max on 3.5 inch disks, while 15k rpm disks uses 2.5 inch platters. As I understand it, the reason is air resistance and the desire to limit drive motor power. Chuck mentioned a CDC effort to have a drum spin in vacuo. That obviously avoids the air friction issue, but at the cost of losing the ability to have flying heads. It probably makes sense to use much reduced pressure, maybe 1% of standard, which still gives you some lift on the heads. Note that the document I quoted wasn't talking high density. I'm guessing 3 mm between tracks, which is easy enough (the RF11 is similar, perhaps somewhat denser if I remember right). Van Wijngaarden mentions 1000 bits per track (and 100 tracks on a "few decimeter" length, so about 3 mm per track which is similar to the track spacing of the DEC RF11). 80 mm diameter means about 250 mm circumference, so we have 4 bits per mm, which is clearly easy enough and doesn't seem to require flying heads. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 10 11:53:38 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:53:38 +0100 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <1634abffaec-17a3-f039@webjas-vae219.srv.aolmail.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <1634abffaec-17a3-f039@webjas-vae219.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <032501d3e87f$72227db0$56677910$@gmail.com> I don't think early drums were terribly fast, but this wasn't a problem because often they were on serial machines, and the data had to sync with the clock speed of the machine. I know that the Manchester Mk1 which evolved from the baby had a drum added. The design of the drum used changed as the machine evolved. There is some info on this evolution here. http://curation.cs.manchester.ac.uk/computer50/www.computer50.org/mark1/gethomas/manchester_drums.html Its interesting to note that the size of the drum was decreased to around 6" as suggested by others. The Ferranti Pegasus also had a drum for main storage and delay lines for "registers". This was a physically large drum with a capacity of 5120 40 it words. The Ferranti Pegasus the clock speed was 333Khz and this was derived from clock tracks written on the drum avoiding any sync problems. However in order to achieve this transfer rate the designers built the tracks in pairs with alternate bits coming from different tracks.. The large diameter of the drum gave problems getting consistent flying height for the heads, which resulted in large changes in signal level. There are notes on this here:- http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/CCS/res/res07.htm#h and here http://www.computerconservationsociety.org/resurrection/res42.htm#f If any one is interested I have more pictures of the Pegasus.. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Ed Sharpe via > cctalk > Sent: 10 May 2018 16:51 > To: paulkoning at comcast.net; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: how fast were drum memories? > > SOME OTHER DRUM USE AS I REMEMBER IT...... > FOR STORAGE HP 2000A TIMESHARE > SYSTEM USED AS DRUM AS SYSTEMS WERE UPGRADED AND DISCS > ADDED FOR 2000C ETC THRU F SOME KEPT > THEIR DRUM AS SWAPPING MEDIA. AS THE HEARD PER > TRACK WAS FASTER THAN MOVING > HEAD FOR USER SPACE AREA SWAPPING > ---- AMD -------AND SOME OF THE GE-PAC PROCESS CONTROL > STUFF USED VERMONT RESEARCH DRUMS... ED# > > In a message dated 5/10/2018 7:29:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > Drums were used as main memory in a number of early computers, and as > secondary memory for a while longer. I wonder how fast real ones (actually > constructed) managed to be. > > What prompted this question is reading an interesting document: > https://ir.cwi.nl/pub/9603 (in Dutch), "Principles of electronic calculating > machines, course notes February 1948" by Prof. A. van Wijngaarden at the > Mathematical Center (now CWI) in Amsterdam. It's quite a fascinating short > introduction into computing technology of that era. (One comment in the > intro: "The field is new. At the moment, the Eniac is the only working > machine..." -- probably not quite accurate given some classified machines, > but not too far wrong.) > > The section on main memory describes a bunch of different technoly > possibilities, one of them drum memory. He writes that a drum of 8 cm > diameter (a bit over 3 inches) and "a couple of decimeters height" could hold > maybe 100k bits, with a track pitch of "a few millimeters". So far so good. He > goes on to suggest that such a drum might spin at 1000 revolutions per > second, i.e., 60,000 rpm. That seems amazingly high. I could see it being > physically possible for a drum of only 40 mm radius, but it sure doesn't sound > easy. It's a good goal to strive for given that the logic, even in the days of > vacuum tubes, can run at cycle times of just a couple of microseconds. As > one more way to speed things up he suggests having multiple rows of > read/write heads, where the addressed word would be picked up by > whichever head sees it soonest. 10 rows and 60k rpm would give you 50 > microseconds average access time which "even for a parallel computer would > be a very attractive number". (Pages 17-18) > > I'm wondering what the reality of fast drum memories looked like, and > whether anyone came even close to these numbers. Also, am I right in > thinking they are at least in principle achievable? I know I could run the stress > numbers, but haven't done so. > > paul From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 10 12:02:43 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:02:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Old newsreader source code In-Reply-To: <8c096a68-fc1b-f8f3-8b04-742f8ac36d55@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <1525796606.679765.1365025688.19C6F478@webmail.messagingengine.com> <9fd8809e90d040d4957cbcfd39e4f0e3@livingcomputers.org> <8c096a68-fc1b-f8f3-8b04-742f8ac36d55@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 May 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 05/10/2018 07:18 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> Rich, if you point a reader at nttp.olduse.net, you can start reading in >> 1988 again. :)? The most recent messages posted are from 05/10/88.? The >> messages that appear on the server are exactly 30 years behind the current >> date.? It's pretty cool.? Last year was the Great Renaming. :) > > Part of me wants to find out what corpus of articles they are using and try > to get a copy of it. > > I'd like to back fill my private news server with old articles. (I'd likely > use the local distribution so that my server didn't try to feed them to any > peers.) Grant, if you go to the web site (http://www.olduse.net), there's a FAQ link where he discusses the sources used for the news feeds. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Thu May 10 12:05:01 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:05:01 -0700 Subject: UUCP "bag" files In-Reply-To: <2c6ed291-9b71-31c3-a58c-d01261e03913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <2c6ed291-9b71-31c3-a58c-d01261e03913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: As in mail bag On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 8:30 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone know why UUCP "bag" files are called "bag"? > > Thanks in advance. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From andy.holt at tesco.net Thu May 10 12:14:55 2018 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:14:55 +0000 (UTC) Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <032501d3e87f$72227db0$56677910$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <44646907.939594.1525972495481.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >>>> from "Dave Wade via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, 10 May, 2018 5:53:38 PM Subject: RE: how fast were drum memories? I don't think early drums were terribly fast, but this wasn't a problem because often they were on serial machines, and the data had to sync with the clock speed of the machine. I know that the Manchester Mk1 which evolved from the baby had a drum added. The design of the drum used changed as the machine evolved. There is some info on this evolution here. http://curation.cs.manchester.ac.uk/computer50/www.computer50.org/mark1/gethomas/manchester_drums.html Its interesting to note that the size of the drum was decreased to around 6" as suggested by others. The Ferranti Pegasus also had a drum for main storage and delay lines for "registers". This was a physically large drum with a capacity of 5120 40 it words. The Ferranti Pegasus the clock speed was 333Khz and this was derived from clock tracks written on the drum avoiding any sync problems. However in order to achieve this transfer rate the designers built the tracks in pairs with alternate bits coming from different tracks.. The large diameter of the drum gave problems getting consistent flying height for the heads, which resulted in large changes in signal level. <<<< See https://archive.org/stream/bitsavers_icticl1900orageSep64_1140393/1962_Drum_Storage_Sep64_djvu.txt for the spec on the 1962/3/4 drums for the ICT/ICL 1900 series When we (City University) acquired our 1905E system (think it was ex Swansea uni.) it came with a 1964 drum (0.5M 24-bit words) made, I think, by Bryant. Took up a lot of floor space and was probably the slowest of our peripherals to come up to "ready" from power on* we "let it go" when we needed to install more equipment in the computer room - don't know what happened to it. * the big CDC at ULCC had a huge drum? - but it had its problems - any power-off, even for a second or so, meant that it needed a full hour to be operational again. ? or, perhaps, a special fixed disk. Andy From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 10 12:15:03 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 11:15:03 -0600 Subject: UUCP "bag" files In-Reply-To: References: <2c6ed291-9b71-31c3-a58c-d01261e03913@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <19f4d8af-f0ce-0dd1-cdd5-dda76c978bac@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/10/2018 11:05 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > As in mail bag That's what I sort of thought. But I've not been able to find anything documenting that. Someone on TUHS replied and said "news bag" like paper boys wore for delivering news. Seeing as how UUCP can easily carry both news and mail, it works for both. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 12:37:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:37:55 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. from https://ia800809.us.archive.org/27/items/TNM_Drum_memories_-_Vermont_Research_Corp_1966_20170826_0105 From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 12:39:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 10:39:53 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <577ca7b6-d17b-c953-da73-f65c4047ac36@bitsavers.org> there is a picture of a small 10K RPM drum here http://museum.ipsj.or.jp/en/computer/device/magnetic_drum/0017.html On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). > Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM > would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. > > from https://ia800809.us.archive.org/27/items/TNM_Drum_memories_-_Vermont_Research_Corp_1966_20170826_0105 > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu May 10 12:47:42 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 18:47:42 +0100 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <004601d3e886$ff7c6340$fe7529c0$@ntlworld.com> The fixed head disc used on MU5 had a 20.5ms revolution time and an inner track data rate of 2.2Mbytes/sec. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning via cctalk > Sent: 10 May 2018 17:30 > To: Grif > Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: how fast were drum memories? > > > > > On May 10, 2018, at 10:37 AM, Grif wrote: > > > > > > I wonder how the late generation paging disks (fixed head per track) like > DG used in the 80's compared? > > One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair > less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). > Transfer rate is 0.5 megabytes per second, but still, at that RPM, average > latency is 8.5 ms. > > paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 14:01:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:01:58 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> Message-ID: <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). > Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM > would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. Just checked, and the LGP-30 and RPC-4000 drums are both listed as 3600 rpm From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu May 10 14:05:41 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:05:41 -0300 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1ab12d1f-e5f0-c9ff-9e01-30c6b2c41afb@gmail.com> On 2018-05-10 4:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). >> Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM >> would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. > Just checked, and the LGP-30 and RPC-4000 drums are both listed as 3600 rpm > > The 4" drum in a IBM 650 is said to have rotated at 12,500 RPM. From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 14:52:49 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 12:52:49 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> Message-ID: "Fast" is a fuzzy term. The 865A drum that Paul cited did spin at 1800 RPM, but had a transfer speed of 2MHz per channel. Data was transfered in 12-bit parallel, so the composite transfer speed was 24Mbit/sec, which isn't too shabby for 1974. As it was used as a paging drum, transfer speed was probably more important than rotational latency. A page was either 512 or 65,536 64-bit words (4096 bytes or 512K bytes). The STAR also used 844 disk drives for data storage. Each "station" had its own "microdrum" of about 72KB that spun at 3600 RPM, but had a transfer rate of 1MHz. It was used to run code on the station and also hold the CPU bootstrap. It was normally loaded from a CE "suitcase". --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu May 10 14:53:12 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:53:12 -0600 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 5/10/2018 9:15 AM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > The Univac FASTRAND *was* slow. > > You could stand there watching through the window on the side of the > 5,000-pound beast and actually see the enormous drum rotating as it > lumbered along at, what, 14 RPS I think. > > Regards to the List - > > Jack Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail program to load under windows and grab new mail. Once core memory became common, fast speeds are relative to other I/O at the time, of TTY and punch card speeds. Ben. From ethan at 757.org Thu May 10 14:56:27 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 15:56:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> Message-ID: > I'd be interested as well if any are left. > I sold a Sparcbook a while back that was missing the hard drive caddy. I > just couldn't find a caddy and had a random buyer that wanted it for a > museum. It did have it netbooting though, and they are fun machines! Sparcbook and the IBM RS/6000 laptop have been on my back burner for a while... if a bunch turn up.... Also looking for the official carry bag for the Sun Voyager. My Voyager is 100% but missing that factory carry bag. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu May 10 15:03:14 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:03:14 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180510153325.nagxefz5tfbwghxg@mooli.org.uk> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <20180510153325.nagxefz5tfbwghxg@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <002701d3e899$eed345a0$cc79d0e0$@net> > Looking at modern hard disks, I'm unconvinced we could even mass- > produce > something like that today. > > A 40mm radius is comparable to a 3.5" disk, which are generally 5,400- > 7,200 > RPM. 15,000 RPM is the fastest available, but those tend to be low- > capacity and > expensive, and are often 2.5" drives with a huge heatsink. I am not sure if that hold true. 15K drives have been around at least for 20 years (unless you are considering that part of today?). I was using Seagate Cheetah SCSI drives in 9Gb and 18Gb capacities w/ 3.5" platters spinning at 15K RPM back in the 2000s. They may not be terabyte HDD but 15K RPM was definitely not an issue. -Ali From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 15:03:54 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:03:54 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> On 05/10/2018 12:53 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail > program to load under windows and grab new mail. > Once core memory became common, fast speeds are relative to other I/O > at the time, of TTY and punch card speeds. Actually, the FASTRAND was used on the 1107 machine which used thin-film memory, so memory was pretty fast already. Didn't the FASTRAND have "ping" detectors that would register a count every time a head hit the surface? I recall that the binary-encoded positioner mechanism was composed of a bunch of solenoids and levers that could convert a binary input to a head position. (The FASTRAND was a moveable head, not a head-per-track drum). --Chuck From harper at secureoutcomes.net Thu May 10 15:17:47 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:17:47 -0600 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> Chuck, do you know if the story that the FASTRAND drum was fabricated from milled/machined sewer pipe is true??? Another apocryphal(?) story is that a FASTRAND unit lies today at the bottom of Tokyo Bay from when it fell from a freighter unloading crane. ...would have made a bit of a splash :) Regards to the List - Jack >Didn't the FASTRAND have "ping" detectors that would register a count >every time a head hit the surface? I recall that the binary-encoded >positioner mechanism was composed of a bunch of solenoids and levers >that could convert a binary input to a head position. (The FASTRAND was >a moveable head, not a head-per-track drum). > >--Chuck ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From jdbryan at acm.org Thu May 10 13:19:01 2018 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:19:01 -0400 Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card In-Reply-To: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> References: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 16:51, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/163039837440 This card also functions as the Privileged Interrupt Fence in RTE operating systems to permit the use of privileged I/O drivers, such as the one for the 12920A terminal multiplexer. -- Dave From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 15:25:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:25:16 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <868233d3-fbc4-c579-7623-e3c1f75b0670@bitsavers.org> On 5/10/18 1:17 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > > Chuck, do you know if the story that the FASTRAND drum was fabricated from milled/machined sewer pipe is true??? it appears one still exists https://collection.maas.museum/object/261170 the decade is wrong. and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luPM6XaKZuU From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 10 15:26:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:26:41 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <868233d3-fbc4-c579-7623-e3c1f75b0670@bitsavers.org> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> <868233d3-fbc4-c579-7623-e3c1f75b0670@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3c7436d0-e730-c576-3975-7b41b7d0d45a@bitsavers.org> and this says they are 880 rpm https://www.fourmilab.ch/documents/univac/fastrand.html On 5/10/18 1:25 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/10/18 1:17 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> Chuck, do you know if the story that the FASTRAND drum was fabricated from milled/machined sewer pipe is true??? > > it appears one still exists > > https://collection.maas.museum/object/261170 > > the decade is wrong. > > and > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luPM6XaKZuU > > > > From harper at secureoutcomes.net Thu May 10 15:44:24 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomes.net (Jack Harper) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:44:24 -0600 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <868233d3-fbc4-c579-7623-e3c1f75b0670@bitsavers.org> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> <868233d3-fbc4-c579-7623-e3c1f75b0670@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20180510204431.BCD64274D1@mx1.ezwind.net> ...press POWER ON and watch the lights dim as the helicopter sound spins up :) Jack At 02:25 PM 5/10/2018, you wrote: >On 5/10/18 1:17 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > Chuck, do you know if the story that the FASTRAND drum was > fabricated from milled/machined sewer pipe is true??? > >it appears one still exists > >https://collection.maas.museum/object/261170 > >the decade is wrong. > >and > >https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=luPM6XaKZuU ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From spectre at floodgap.com Thu May 10 15:44:47 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 13:44:47 -0700 (PDT) Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: from Ethan via cctalk at "May 10, 18 03:56:27 pm" Message-ID: <201805102044.w4AKil2R11206892@floodgap.com> > > I'd be interested as well if any are left. > > I sold a Sparcbook a while back that was missing the hard drive caddy. I > > just couldn't find a caddy and had a random buyer that wanted it for a > > museum. It did have it netbooting though, and they are fun machines! > > Sparcbook and the IBM RS/6000 laptop have been on my back burner for a > while... if a bunch turn up.... > > Also looking for the official carry bag for the Sun Voyager. My Voyager is > 100% but missing that factory carry bag. There's also the S3000 in that category (luggable SPARCs). On the RS/6000 ThinkPad side, I have an 860 and a currently refusing-to-boot 800. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- If a seagull flies over the sea, what flies over the bay? ------------------ From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Thu May 10 15:46:36 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 16:46:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 May 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz power). >> Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM >> would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. > > Just checked, and the LGP-30 and RPC-4000 drums are both listed as 3600 rpm The drums on the SAGE system (12 on each side), are listed as follows: Diameter: 10.7" Width: 12.5" Weight: 105 lbs (cylinder, only), 450 lbs for entire drum assembly Speed: 2914 rpm Heads: Up to 12 R/W bars, with up to 40 heads on each bar, 1 erase bar 6 pairs, one for Compuuter-to-Drum (CD), one for Other-than-computer-to-Drum (OD) Head spacing 0.3" apart on each bar Drum Layout: 2048 registers on 33 channels (tracks), 6 fields Channel spacing is 0.050" Access Time: Maximum 20ms, average 10ms Write Current: 110ma The R/W bars are arranged in pairs (CD and OD) so that I/O devices can access the drum independently of the computer. More than you ever wanted to know about SAGE drums (thanks, Al!): http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-42-0_Drum_System_Sep58.pdf Here's one of the earlier style R/W heads: http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/DrumHead-1L.jpg Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From aperry at snowmoose.com Thu May 10 16:04:51 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:04:51 -0700 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <201805102044.w4AKil2R11206892@floodgap.com> References: <201805102044.w4AKil2R11206892@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <684FFB09-E339-47C2-B11D-61CA2789894C@snowmoose.com> On May 10, 2018, at 1:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >>> I'd be interested as well if any are left. >>> I sold a Sparcbook a while back that was missing the hard drive caddy. I >>> just couldn't find a caddy and had a random buyer that wanted it for a >>> museum. It did have it netbooting though, and they are fun machines! >> >> Sparcbook and the IBM RS/6000 laptop have been on my back burner for a >> while... if a bunch turn up.... >> >> Also looking for the official carry bag for the Sun Voyager. My Voyager is >> 100% but missing that factory carry bag. > > There's also the S3000 in that category (luggable SPARCs). You are talking about the Solbourne IDT S3000, right? Anyone here know where, aside from the ones on eBay now, to buy a Solbourne now? For SPARC, there are also RDI BriteLites, Sun lunchbox system boards in laptop-ish cases, and PowerLites (which are SPARC systems despite ?Power? in the name). alan From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 10 16:12:56 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 14:12:56 -0700 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <423e92d0-c9c0-de66-cf58-59ac6b60513e@sydex.com> <20180510201758.E88514E701@mx2.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 05/10/2018 01:17 PM, Jack Harper via cctalk wrote: > > > Chuck, do you know if the story that the FASTRAND drum was fabricated > from milled/machined sewer pipe is true??? > I remember hearing the joke that the (2 counter-rotating) drums were chrome-plated sewer pipe, but I would find that hard to believe. IIT, I think it was, had one installed on their 1108, which was on the second floor of a refurbished old building. I heard a story that pretty early on, the Univac field people were mystified by clusters of "pings" on the FASTRAND. It turned out that every time a good-sized truck went down S. Michigan Ave, the pinging would start. --Chuck From ethan at 757.org Thu May 10 16:39:25 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:39:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <201805102044.w4AKil2R11206892@floodgap.com> References: <201805102044.w4AKil2R11206892@floodgap.com> Message-ID: > There's also the S3000 in that category (luggable SPARCs). On the RS/6000 > ThinkPad side, I have an 860 and a currently refusing-to-boot 800. Are the 860 and 800 worth hutning down? All of them have 2.5" SCSI drives as well I assume. -- : Ethan O'Toole From nick at burkitt.net Thu May 10 19:24:51 2018 From: nick at burkitt.net (Nick Burkitt) Date: Thu, 10 May 2018 17:24:51 -0700 Subject: S-100 systems appraisal Message-ID: <20180510172451.08617d36f075f79222d1ffac3cc3245a.383abdc691.wbe@email12.secureserver.net> Back in the 1970s and 80s, my brother and I used to frequent computer swap meets in and around Orange County, CA. We both built S-100 systems from the boards we bought there. I sold mine long ago, but my brother kept at it for several more years. Last December he passed away, and I discovered that he had kept his "big" system, and had put together a second as well. I'm interested to know people's thoughts on what they might be worth, both as complete systems, which I would prefer, and if sold as individual components. Everything is located in Santa Ana, CA. My brother was a fan of OASIS, so his main machine was switch-selectable to boot either that or CP/M (MP/M). It was almost certainly running when it was decommissioned (which would have been at least 20 years ago). OASIS Box Large (as in washing-machine) enclosure containing: Four 1/2-height, eight inch floppy drives, in enclosure. Two eight inch hard drives, probably 10 or 20 MB each, in enclosure. 18-slot CCS mainframe with these cards: CCS 2805, Rev. D, Terminator/Wallclock (terminator unpopulated) CCS 2830 Six/SIO, Assy No. 02830-00001, Rev. A CCS 2832 2 Rev. A, Winchester disk controller (2-board set). Module 9016-Rev02, 7-82. CCS 2422 Assy No. 02422-0001 Rev. B, Multimode Floppy Disk Controller. CCS 2066 Rev. B 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable CCS 2066 Rev. A 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable Cromemco 16KZ Cromemco 16KZ CCS 2068 Assy No. 02065-00001 Rev. C 64K dynamic Memory Computer System Resources (CSR) RAM 64D, modified w/external switch(es) CCS 2820 Assy. No. 02830-00001 System Processor CCS 2704 Assy No 02704-0000? Rev. ? Terminator Board The other system is just the mainframe. The manufacture's label is hidden by the floppies and I was too lazy to remove them to read it. Black Box 12-slot mainframe, with two 1/2-height 5.25 inch floppy drives (and room for two more). Includes these cards: CCS 2066 Assy. No. 2066-00001 Rev. A 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable CCS 2820 Rev. B System Processor CCS 2066 2.2K Rev. C 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable CCS 2066 Assy. No. 2066-00001 Rev. A 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable CCS 2066 2.2K Rev. B 64K Dynamic RAM, bank selectable CCS 2422 Assy No. 02422-0001 Rev. B, Multimode Floppy Disk Controller. CCS 2805, Rev. D, Terminator/Wallclock (terminator unpopulated) Konan SMC200 P-SMC-201-A Hard disk controller (no hard disk) CCS 2830 Six/SIO Rev. C CCS 2704 Assy No 02704-00001 Rev. C Terminator Board Separately, he also had: CCS 2520K Extender/terminator board kit, unassembled, in box with manual. Archive Corporation Sidewinder tape drive with two tapes. Cromemco 16KZ RAM board, with manual I have photos of everything. Thanks, -Nick From useddec at gmail.com Fri May 11 01:18:45 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 01:18:45 -0500 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The good old days... I recall the Q-7 drums would take about 15 minutes to come to a stop when turned off, and would power up in seven seconds or less. Surge current was around 115 amps? Paul On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 10 May 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >>> >>> On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a >>>> hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz >>>> power). >>>> >>> Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP >>> 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM >>> would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. >>> >> >> Just checked, and the LGP-30 and RPC-4000 drums are both listed as 3600 >> rpm >> > > The drums on the SAGE system (12 on each side), are listed as follows: > > Diameter: 10.7" > Width: 12.5" > Weight: 105 lbs (cylinder, only), 450 lbs for entire drum assembly > Speed: 2914 rpm > Heads: Up to 12 R/W bars, with up to 40 heads on each bar, 1 > erase bar > 6 pairs, one for Compuuter-to-Drum (CD), one for > Other-than-computer-to-Drum (OD) > Head spacing 0.3" apart on each bar > Drum Layout: 2048 registers on 33 channels (tracks), 6 fields > Channel spacing is 0.050" > Access Time: Maximum 20ms, average 10ms > Write Current: 110ma > > The R/W bars are arranged in pairs (CD and OD) so that I/O devices can > access the drum independently of the computer. > > More than you ever wanted to know about SAGE drums (thanks, Al!): > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-42-0_Drum_System_Sep58.pdf > > Here's one of the earlier style R/W heads: > > http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/DrumHead-1L.jpg > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri May 11 06:11:46 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 13:11:46 +0200 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: [...] > Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail > program to load under windows and grab new mail. And yet computer performance was perfectly acceptable before you started using Windows? The cause of your problems and thus the solution seems obvious. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri May 11 06:45:02 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 07:45:02 -0400 Subject: Sparc Laptops Message-ID: > > Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 13:08:51 -0400 > Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops > > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > I have about 15 SPARC based lugables and laptops. Some are TRIgem/RDI Britelites that have an IPC/IPX/LX motherboard inside, three Voyagers, the rest are Tadpole SB2, SB3, SB3GX, and Ultrabooks. Michael Thompson From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri May 11 06:49:57 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 07:49:57 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: References: <565774274.4323.1525963063774@wamui-eagle.atl.sa.earthlink.net> <04d78687-0610-0b9b-270a-51a827fd3f8f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The manual says 125A per phase (3-phase, 208V) starting current. I remember spin-down as 20 minutes, but that was a long time ago. :-) On Fri, 11 May 2018, Paul Anderson wrote: > The good old days... > > I recall the Q-7 drums would take about 15 minutes to come to a stop when > turned off, and would power up in seven seconds or less. Surge current was > around 115 amps? > > Paul > > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:46 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Thu, 10 May 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 5/10/18 10:37 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On 5/10/18 9:29 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> One that comes to mind is the DEC RS04. It spins at roughly 3600 rpm (a >>>>> hair less, so obviously a 2 pole induction motor running off 3-phase 60 Hz >>>>> power). >>>>> >>>> Vermont Research drums (model 1175B) spun at 3450 rpm 3ph 220v, The HP >>>> 2773 on the 2000A TSB was from VR so I expect RPM >>>> would be similar for most drums of similar diameter. >>>> >>> >>> Just checked, and the LGP-30 and RPC-4000 drums are both listed as 3600 >>> rpm >>> >> >> The drums on the SAGE system (12 on each side), are listed as follows: >> >> Diameter: 10.7" >> Width: 12.5" >> Weight: 105 lbs (cylinder, only), 450 lbs for entire drum assembly >> Speed: 2914 rpm >> Heads: Up to 12 R/W bars, with up to 40 heads on each bar, 1 >> erase bar >> 6 pairs, one for Compuuter-to-Drum (CD), one for >> Other-than-computer-to-Drum (OD) >> Head spacing 0.3" apart on each bar >> Drum Layout: 2048 registers on 33 channels (tracks), 6 fields >> Channel spacing is 0.050" >> Access Time: Maximum 20ms, average 10ms >> Write Current: 110ma >> >> The R/W bars are arranged in pairs (CD and OD) so that I/O devices can >> access the drum independently of the computer. >> >> More than you ever wanted to know about SAGE drums (thanks, Al!): >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/sage/3-42-0_Drum_System_Sep58.pdf >> >> Here's one of the earlier style R/W heads: >> >> http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/SAGE/DrumHead-1L.jpg >> >> >> Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us >> Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ >> > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 11 09:34:01 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 09:34:01 -0500 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <5AF5A9D9.8050202@pico-systems.com> > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail >> program to load under windows and grab new mail. My mediocre laptop running linux is fully up and logged in in 15 seconds! That includes me typing in the password. I do have a solid state disk. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 11 09:38:56 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 09:38:56 -0500 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <5AF5A9D9.8050202@pico-systems.com> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> <5AF5A9D9.8050202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5AF5AB00.4050702@pico-systems.com> >> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk >> wrote: >> [...] >>> Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 >>> minutes for my mail >>> program to load under windows and grab new mail. > My mediocre laptop running linux is fully up and logged in > in 15 seconds! That includes me typing in the password. > I do have a solid state disk. > > Jon From mazzinia at tin.it Fri May 11 10:50:59 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 17:50:59 +0200 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c901d3e93f$dc056970$94103c50$@tin.it> That's quite a lot of units. This said the only I ever saw from real is the Voyager... there was one in my university computing lab, a very nice design -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Michael Thompson via cctalk Inviato: venerd? 11 maggio 2018 13:45 A: Michael Thompson via cctalk Oggetto: Re: Sparc Laptops > > Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 13:08:51 -0400 > Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops > > I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium > laptop before they were bought out. > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ > DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg > b > > On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream > > anyway. > > > > I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. > > > > Zane > I have about 15 SPARC based lugables and laptops. Some are TRIgem/RDI Britelites that have an IPC/IPX/LX motherboard inside, three Voyagers, the rest are Tadpole SB2, SB3, SB3GX, and Ultrabooks. Michael Thompson From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 11 13:29:45 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 11:29:45 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> scanned, and uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces On 5/1/18 1:43 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > OK, looks like it's time to give him a call.. > > On 5/1/18 11:51 AM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: >> On Monday, April 30, 2018 at 10:22, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: >> >>> If it doesn't turn up in what I have, I'll check with Jeff to see if he >>> still has it. >> >> If I'm not imposing, could you also please ask him for: >> >> OPERATING AND SERVICE MANUAL >> 12653A LINE PRINTER INTERFACE KIT >> FOR 2767A LINE PRINTER >> MANUAL NO. 12653-90002 >> [1 copy OCT 1970] >> [1 copy MAR 1973] >> [Card #12653-60002, cable #12653-60001] >> >> ...in the same "orange file box" as the 12661 manual? Thanks. >> >> -- Dave >> > From jdbryan at acm.org Fri May 11 14:16:18 2018 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 15:16:18 -0400 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> References: , , <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 11:29, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > scanned, and uploaded to > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces Very much appreciated, thanks. -- Dave From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri May 11 15:07:06 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 13:07:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: References: <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, May 11, 2018 at 12:16 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: > On Friday, May 11, 2018 at 11:29, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > >> scanned, and uploaded to >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces > > Very much appreciated, thanks. > > -- Dave > +1. Now I'll have to pull out a 12661A DVS card and a 2117F and try some basic functionality tests on the 12661A card to see if it looks like works. If it does maybe I'll try to acquire a 6130A supply to give it something to do. From commodorejohn at gmail.com Fri May 11 12:37:13 2018 From: commodorejohn at gmail.com (John Ames) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 10:37:13 -0700 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 44, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Looking at modern hard disks, I'm unconvinced we could even mass-produce > something like that today. > > A 40mm radius is comparable to a 3.5" disk, which are generally 5,400-7,200 > RPM. 15,000 RPM is the fastest available, but those tend to be low-capacity and > expensive, and are often 2.5" drives with a huge heatsink. We could perhaps > rotate a very narrow smaller cylinder faster still but then the capacity > suffers further, and the seek time would start to dominate. I Am Not An Engineer(tm) but it seems to me that a taller cylinder should be less prone to wobbling on its axis than a flat disk, particularly if it's built at the scale of the drums I've seen at the CHM where there's room enough to really bolt that sucker down. Bit different than a 3.5" box with a stack of thin metal platters in it, I'd think. From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri May 11 13:23:47 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 15:23:47 -0300 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 44, Issue 10 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <704ef4d5-d5bb-8a35-bd03-86d067899719@gmail.com> On 2018-05-11 2:37 PM, John Ames via cctech wrote: >> Looking at modern hard disks, I'm unconvinced we could even mass-produce >> something like that today. >> >> A 40mm radius is comparable to a 3.5" disk, which are generally 5,400-7,200 >> RPM. 15,000 RPM is the fastest available, but those tend to be low-capacity and >> expensive, and are often 2.5" drives with a huge heatsink. We could perhaps >> rotate a very narrow smaller cylinder faster still but then the capacity >> suffers further, and the seek time would start to dominate. > I Am Not An Engineer(tm) but it seems to me that a taller cylinder > should be less prone to wobbling on its axis than a flat disk, > particularly if it's built at the scale of the drums I've seen at the > CHM where there's room enough to really bolt that sucker down. Bit > different than a 3.5" box with a stack of thin metal platters in it, > I'd think. They are not even metal platters anymore they have been glass for several years now, glass is more rigid and can apparently be made smoother than metal. From doc at vaxen.net Fri May 11 15:17:05 2018 From: doc at vaxen.net (Doc Shipley) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 15:17:05 -0500 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5d253325-5e7f-4404-149e-635c0a9e77ee@vaxen.net> On 5/11/18 6:45 AM, Michael Thompson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Date: Wed, 9 May 2018 13:08:51 -0400 >> Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops >> >> I have a pretty cool DEC 486 laptop. I am unsure if they made a Pentium >> laptop before they were bought out. >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/DECpc_433SLC/ >> DECpc_433SLC_Premium_open2.jpg >> b >> >> On Wed, May 9, 2018 at 11:46 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> I dream of owning an Alphabook. It?s a silly dream, but it?s one I dream >>> anyway. >>> >>> I have a Sparcbook 3GS (I think that?s the model) somewhere. >>> >>> Zane >> > > I have about 15 SPARC based lugables and laptops. Some are TRIgem/RDI > Britelites that have an IPC/IPX/LX motherboard inside, three Voyagers, the > rest are Tadpole SB2, SB3, SB3GX, and Ultrabooks. oooooh! Do you, by chance, know where I can find either install media or the Tadpole-specific drivers for a SPARCBook 2? System docs would be a bonus. I have an SB2 with a dying HDD. I also have a 2.5" SCSI-IDE adapter, so I'd like to get it going again. This would likely be a bootp-based installation. Thanks! Doc From mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de Fri May 11 18:05:49 2018 From: mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de (Waldemar Brodkorb) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 01:05:49 +0200 Subject: R: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: References: <053001d3e6fd$566f5e90$034e1bb0$@com> <65391f8cebd7eb527841582adc2150e2@connorsdomain.com> <05b201d3e70a$21be1170$653a3450$@com> <011601d3e70e$6e06e3a0$4a14aae0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20180511230549.GA2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Hi, Ethan via cctalk wrote, > >I'd be interested as well if any are left. > >I sold a Sparcbook a while back that was missing the hard drive caddy. I > >just couldn't find a caddy and had a random buyer that wanted it for a > >museum. It did have it netbooting though, and they are fun machines! > > Sparcbook and the IBM RS/6000 laptop have been on my back burner for a > while... if a bunch turn up.... > > Also looking for the official carry bag for the Sun Voyager. My Voyager is > 100% but missing that factory carry bag. > > - Ethan I got one together with my Voyager, but sorry not for sale ;) Does anyone got an answer from the seller? How much you offered for one Tadpole? best regards Waldemar From barythrin at gmail.com Fri May 11 23:11:57 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 23:11:57 -0500 Subject: Sparc Laptops In-Reply-To: <00c901d3e93f$dc056970$94103c50$@tin.it> References: <00c901d3e93f$dc056970$94103c50$@tin.it> Message-ID: Yes the IBMs are worth tracking down. I always keep my eye out but rarely see them come up for sale but it'd be fun to have an RS/6000 that doesn't cause a hernia to move. My only similar one is a tadpole but I don't recall the version. I used a universal power supply to get it to run for a little while but then I'm pretty sure the backlight on the lcd popped and went out. So I'm also a member of the almost but not quite functioning owners club. :-) Would gladly get rid of some Ultras if I could upgrade to a portable. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 12 06:32:42 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 12:32:42 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 Message-ID: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> Folks, I am rebuilding a Microchannel server with a P/390 card. It must have come with a licence for OS/2 Communications Manager as its required to get the P390 working but despite having several boxes of CDs and Floppy Disks I can't find a copy of this software anywhere. If anyone has a copy of CM 2.11 they are not using and would be prepared to sell me., I would be pleased to pay for it. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 12 07:28:39 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 05:28:39 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Message-ID: This time not so 'classic' My last job was maintaining IBM p7's and eventually p8's. One thing I started was putting together a home setup. But like all the other projects the gear has become redundant to me. The 'stack' consists of 2 each IBM p720's, a CR6 HMC, and a KVM drawer. The p720 do NOT have any hard drives or carriers, but both are available via Ebay. The carrier was used in more than one model, and in the past I've bought carriers with small disks for < $20 each, then found larger disks of various brands. And the rails are missing from the p720's. Google "ibm p720" I can't remember how much RAM, number of CPUs etc but one p720 was 'loaded'. If interested let me know and If anyone knows a good AIX list please let me know I'll try to get a few photo's this weekend. The 'stack' is located in Portland, Oregon. NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. -pete From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 12 08:28:05 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 09:28:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Message-ID: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Lancashire > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. Just a reminded to everyone; most PakMail franchises are prepared to go somewhere off-site, pick items up where they sit, and then pack them; I've used this service several times for 'pick up only' items. Noel From ik at yvanj.me Sat May 12 09:21:35 2018 From: ik at yvanj.me (Yvan Janssens) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 15:21:35 +0100 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I am quite interested in one of them, but I?m located at the other side of the planet. Would PakMail work for that as well? On Sat, 12 May 2018 at 14:28, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > Just a reminded to everyone; most PakMail franchises are prepared to go > somewhere off-site, pick items up where they sit, and then pack them; I've > used this service several times for 'pick up only' items. > > Noel > From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 12 09:30:41 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 07:30:41 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Noel is right there is Pak Mail. But Pak Mail is not cheap and these suckers weight a lot my guest is stack is about 300 lbs On Sat, May 12, 2018, 6:28 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > Just a reminded to everyone; most PakMail franchises are prepared to go > somewhere off-site, pick items up where they sit, and then pack them; I've > used this service several times for 'pick up only' items. > > Noel > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 12 09:35:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 10:35:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Message-ID: <20180512143531.05D8B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Yvan Janssens > ... > I'm located at the other side of the planet. > Would PakMail work for that as well? Pakmail can _send_ to most countries (they can only do _pickups_ in the US and Canada, that I know of), but of course sending a large object a long way can be expensive. I don't know if they can do surface (i.e. boat) to destinations outside North America, or just air - check their Web-site. Noel From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 12 09:38:30 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 07:38:30 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I was asked about configuration. Everything nowadays is a bit foggy but one of the p720 s I had converted to a split back plane and was running it with a pair of VIO serves it is also setup for Enterprise VM. It also has fiber cards to go to a SAN The other was a standalone DR that's the one that's pretty loaded sadly the disk we're pulled and it had over a terabyte of hard drives. The last time I looked it would run you less than $500 to fill both of them with hard drives and carriers I guess I have to say no software is included. On Sat, May 12, 2018, 5:28 AM Pete Lancashire wrote: > This time not so 'classic' > > My last job was maintaining IBM p7's and eventually p8's. > > One thing I started was putting together a home setup. But like all the > other > projects the gear has become redundant to me. > > The 'stack' consists of 2 each IBM p720's, a CR6 HMC, and a KVM drawer. > > The p720 do NOT have any hard drives or carriers, but both are available > via > Ebay. The carrier was used in more than one model, and in the past I've > bought carriers with small disks for < $20 each, then found larger disks of > various brands. > > And the rails are missing from the p720's. > > Google "ibm p720" > > I can't remember how much RAM, number of CPUs etc but one p720 was > 'loaded'. > > If interested let me know and > > If anyone knows a good AIX list please let me know > > I'll try to get a few photo's this weekend. > > The 'stack' is located in Portland, Oregon. > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > > -pete > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 12 09:40:15 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 10:40:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Message-ID: <20180512144015.CBE6518C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Lancashire > Pak Mail is not cheap Actually, since they buy 'in bulk' from carriers, they are surprisingly reasonable; their quote to ship an H960 rack from Arizona to me was less than I was quoted by some carriers. Noel From mazzinia at tin.it Sat May 12 10:46:21 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:46:21 +0200 Subject: R: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <008801d3ea08$60fd7e60$22f87b20$@tin.it> 48.x KG for the rack version, according to the redbook. Reminds me of the time I fell into an open traphole with a portable AS/400 in hand. The concrete chipped... the AS didn't have even a scratch in the paint -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pete Lancashire via cctalk Inviato: sabato 12 maggio 2018 16:31 A: Noel Chiappa; General Oggetto: Re: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Noel is right there is Pak Mail. But Pak Mail is not cheap and these suckers weight a lot my guest is stack is about 300 lbs On Sat, May 12, 2018, 6:28 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > Just a reminded to everyone; most PakMail franchises are prepared to go > somewhere off-site, pick items up where they sit, and then pack them; I've > used this service several times for 'pick up only' items. > > Noel > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 12 13:03:23 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 14:03:23 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip Message-ID: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hey, all, the RK11-D contoller for the PDP-11 uses Motorola 4015 MSI chips on one of the boards (M7254), but I can't find out anything about them. Google didn't turn anything up, and the appendix in the RK11-D Maintenance Manual that has info about 'all' the MSI chips used in the RK11-D doesn't have this one. It appears to be a quad flop - anyone have more info? Thanks! Noel From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 12 13:08:49 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 19:08:49 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> References: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018c01d3ea1c$47909d40$d6b1d7c0$@gmail.com> Folks, Can I say thanks to the folks that helped me "off list". I have found that if I use the latest version of the P390 support software it doesn't need Communications Manager. Dave From: Dave Wade Sent: 12 May 2018 12:33 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 Folks, I am rebuilding a Microchannel server with a P/390 card. It must have come with a licence for OS/2 Communications Manager as its required to get the P390 working but despite having several boxes of CDs and Floppy Disks I can't find a copy of this software anywhere. If anyone has a copy of CM 2.11 they are not using and would be prepared to sell me., I would be pleased to pay for it. Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat May 12 13:23:35 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 13:23:35 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z-90 startup Message-ID: <777692e1-f85e-28b1-a1a3-0a7cbd3c2ea8@gmail.com> Any Zenith Z-90 owners out there (which appears to be the same thing as a Z-89 / Heath H89, but with a DD soft-sectored disk controller)? I was given one up a couple of days ago which isn't giving the expected "H:" prompt at power-on - but it *does* give a blinking cursor, and hitting off-line lets me type, and characters get echoed to the screen. Right-shift-reset clears the screen and gets me back to the cursor. Before I dig deeper, I'd like to verify that this isn't a feature, i.e. that it's not auto-magically dropping into "terminal mode" at startup :-) Unfortunately while I have masses of documentation for the machine, I'm lacking a basic user guide which might shed light on any such mode; some of the more detailed documentation that I have talks about rerouting the port cabling to use the system purely as a terminal, but doesn't mention doing any other configuration. cheers Jules From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 12 13:36:50 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 11:36:50 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip In-Reply-To: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: It's in the 1971 moto ttl data book page 37 same as the 7475 On 5/12/18 11:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hey, all, the RK11-D contoller for the PDP-11 uses Motorola 4015 MSI chips on > one of the boards (M7254), but I can't find out anything about them. Google > didn't turn anything up, and the appendix in the RK11-D Maintenance Manual > that has info about 'all' the MSI chips used in the RK11-D doesn't have this > one. It appears to be a quad flop - anyone have more info? Thanks! > > Noel > From jsw at ieee.org Sat May 12 13:37:51 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 13:37:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip In-Reply-To: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5BDD88D9-315F-47B7-9031-DE6CD596D174@ieee.org> > On May 12, 2018, at 1:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Hey, all, the RK11-D contoller for the PDP-11 uses Motorola 4015 MSI chips on > one of the boards (M7254), but I can't find out anything about them. Google > didn't turn anything up, and the appendix in the RK11-D Maintenance Manual > that has info about 'all' the MSI chips used in the RK11-D doesn't have this > one. It appears to be a quad flop - anyone have more info? Thanks! > > Noel MC4015 - TTL quad type d latch(flip flop) See Section 11 in http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/motorola/_dataBooks/1971_Motorola_TTL_Integrated_Circuits_Data_Book.pdf Jerry From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 12 13:38:39 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 12:38:39 -0600 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> References: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 05/12/2018 05:32 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I am rebuilding a Microchannel server with a P/390 card. Will you be chronicling this process anywhere? I'd like to observe from a distance. Blog / Twitter / other? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 12 13:38:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 11:38:39 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip In-Reply-To: References: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <369050be-6fd9-8498-620c-c392eabef9ad@bitsavers.org> On 5/12/18 11:36 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > same as the 7475 the direct replacement table lies. it's quite different than a 7475 From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 12 13:40:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 11:40:52 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip In-Reply-To: <5BDD88D9-315F-47B7-9031-DE6CD596D174@ieee.org> References: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5BDD88D9-315F-47B7-9031-DE6CD596D174@ieee.org> Message-ID: <0a0aac72-6609-747c-bdf7-7833dc504b0e@bitsavers.org> page 242 On 5/12/18 11:37 AM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote2 > >> On May 12, 2018, at 1:03 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hey, all, the RK11-D contoller for the PDP-11 uses Motorola 4015 MSI chips on >> one of the boards (M7254), but I can't find out anything about them. Google >> didn't turn anything up, and the appendix in the RK11-D Maintenance Manual >> that has info about 'all' the MSI chips used in the RK11-D doesn't have this >> one. It appears to be a quad flop - anyone have more info? Thanks! >> >> Noel > > MC4015 - TTL quad type d latch(flip flop) > > See Section 11 in http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/motorola/_dataBooks/1971_Motorola_TTL_Integrated_Circuits_Data_Book.pdf > > Jerry > > > From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com Sat May 12 14:29:36 2018 From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 14:29:36 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z-90 startup In-Reply-To: <777692e1-f85e-28b1-a1a3-0a7cbd3c2ea8@gmail.com> References: <777692e1-f85e-28b1-a1a3-0a7cbd3c2ea8@gmail.com> Message-ID: Hello, I have had this issue with a number of H/Z89s I have. The terminal board and the logic board are two separate systems, so it seems to be common for the logic board to go down while the terminal board keeps working. I would check voltages on the logic board, then take it out of look for blown tantalum caps and burnt traces. The tantalum caps used in these systems seems to like to cause issues, with 5\8 of my systems experiencing issues with them. If that doesn't do the trick then check the power regulators on the logic board, as those can cause issues too. I'm not too familiar with the terminal setting on these systems, but I would check the DIP switch settings with the manual and see if there are any settings changed. There are many good sources for the manuals online last time I checked On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 1:23 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Any Zenith Z-90 owners out there (which appears to be the same thing as a > Z-89 / Heath H89, but with a DD soft-sectored disk controller)? > > I was given one up a couple of days ago which isn't giving the expected > "H:" prompt at power-on - but it *does* give a blinking cursor, and hitting > off-line lets me type, and characters get echoed to the screen. > Right-shift-reset clears the screen and gets me back to the cursor. > > Before I dig deeper, I'd like to verify that this isn't a feature, i.e. > that it's not auto-magically dropping into "terminal mode" at startup :-) > Unfortunately while I have masses of documentation for the machine, I'm > lacking a basic user guide which might shed light on any such mode; some of > the more detailed documentation that I have talks about rerouting the port > cabling to use the system purely as a terminal, but doesn't mention doing > any other configuration. > > cheers > > Jules > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat May 12 15:08:37 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 13:08:37 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on Motorola 4015 chip In-Reply-To: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180512180323.8701B18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 2018-May-12, at 11:03 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hey, all, the RK11-D contoller for the PDP-11 uses Motorola 4015 MSI chips on > one of the boards (M7254), but I can't find out anything about them. Google > didn't turn anything up, and the appendix in the RK11-D Maintenance Manual > that has info about 'all' the MSI chips used in the RK11-D doesn't have this > one. It appears to be a quad flop - anyone have more info? Thanks! If it comes to replacement, the 74LS279 (quad nSnR latch) looks like a good candidate to consider in the application. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat May 12 15:29:10 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 14:29:10 -0600 Subject: how fast were drum memories? In-Reply-To: <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> References: <67BAD6A3-7F13-4840-9D35-77B92C039C58@comcast.net> <07b35ed4-dcc3-bc7c-35ca-624fc3c1b25c@sydex.com> <20180510162549.7A187273ED@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180511111146.lvezxsbpwk22kiym@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> On 5/11/2018 5:11 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail >> program to load under windows and grab new mail. > > And yet computer performance was perfectly acceptable before you started using > Windows? The cause of your problems and thus the solution seems obvious. > YES! Please send me a PDP-10 computer. PO BOX 1234567 CANADA. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 12 16:31:42 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:31:42 -0400 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1635644393b-1dbb-1a50b@webjas-vab139.srv.aolmail.net> found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, May 12, 2018 ben via cctalk wrote: On 5/11/2018 5:11 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail >> program to load under windows and grab new mail. > > And yet computer performance was perfectly acceptable before you started using > Windows? The cause of your problems and thus the solution seems obvious. > YES! Please send me a PDP-10 computer. PO BOX 1234567 CANADA. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 12 16:31:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:31:45 -0400 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1635644465b-1ddb-1a520@webjas-vab131.srv.aolmail.net> found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, May 12, 2018 ben via cctalk wrote: On 5/11/2018 5:11 AM, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:53:12PM -0600, ben via cctalk wrote: > [...] >> Can not be slower than modern computers, It takes 5 minutes for my mail >> program to load under windows and grab new mail. > > And yet computer performance was perfectly acceptable before you started using > Windows? The cause of your problems and thus the solution seems obvious. > YES! Please send me a PDP-10 computer. PO BOX 1234567 CANADA. From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 16:51:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 14:51:26 -0700 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <1635644393b-1dbb-1a50b@webjas-vab139.srv.aolmail.net> References: <0b1a34c5-3bf7-0c23-dc3f-13b7e891ce29@jetnet.ab.ca> <1635644393b-1dbb-1a50b@webjas-vab139.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> Head-per-track drums were used on airborne radar setups as a non-computer use. John Meshna used to advertise military surplus ones, complete with 400Hz spindle motor. I was tempted at the time to get one, but was warned that the surplus ones are rarely functional. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 12 16:57:38 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:57:38 -0400 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> References: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <163565bf5cf-17a4-1a40d@webjas-vad025.srv.aolmail.net> these probably get proc control vec drums Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, May 12, 2018 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Head-per-track drums were used on airborne radar setups as a non-computer use. John Meshna used to advertise military surplus ones, complete with 400Hz spindle motor. I was tempted at the time to get one, but was warned that the surplus ones are rarely functional. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 12 17:01:06 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 18:01:06 -0400 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> References: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <163565f266f-1dd3-1a67b@webjas-vac248.srv.aolmail.net> vrc get pro. control hpt Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, May 12, 2018 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Head-per-track drums were used on airborne radar setups as a non-computer use. John Meshna used to advertise military surplus ones, complete with 400Hz spindle motor. I was tempted at the time to get one, but was warned that the surplus ones are rarely functional. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 17:37:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 15:37:03 -0700 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <163565f266f-1dd3-1a67b@webjas-vac248.srv.aolmail.net> References: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> <163565f266f-1dd3-1a67b@webjas-vac248.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <80682e40-1ffb-7209-bc44-87799d84d284@sydex.com> My guess was MADRE or NRL: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Over-the-horizon_radar The timing would be right. Acoustic delay lines served the same purpose, but you couldn't have a mercury delay line in an airplane, practically speaking. --Chuck From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 12 17:42:11 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 15:42:11 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: <008801d3ea08$60fd7e60$22f87b20$@tin.it> References: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008801d3ea08$60fd7e60$22f87b20$@tin.it> Message-ID: And I almost bid on the 2 CEC p770's until I looked at the power consumption the way I had them configured. 768 GB RAM and I think 24 cores, I would have had to add a new circuit to the room. On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 8:46 AM, Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > 48.x KG for the rack version, according to the redbook. > > Reminds me of the time I fell into an open traphole with a portable AS/400 > in hand. The concrete chipped... the AS didn't have even a scratch in the > paint > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Pete > Lancashire via cctalk > Inviato: sabato 12 maggio 2018 16:31 > A: Noel Chiappa; General > Oggetto: Re: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this > time > > Noel is right there is Pak Mail. But Pak Mail is not cheap and these > suckers weight a lot my guest is stack is about 300 lbs > > On Sat, May 12, 2018, 6:28 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > wrote: > > > > From: Pete Lancashire > > > > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > > > Just a reminded to everyone; most PakMail franchises are prepared to go > > somewhere off-site, pick items up where they sit, and then pack them; > I've > > used this service several times for 'pick up only' items. > > > > Noel > > > > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 12 18:07:00 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 00:07:00 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <01f101d3ea45$ef0a0290$cd1e07b0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 12 May 2018 19:39 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > On 05/12/2018 05:32 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I am rebuilding a Microchannel server with a P/390 card. > Will you be chronicling this process anywhere? I'd like to observe from a > distance. Blog / Twitter / other? I was so unsure of what I was doing that I haven't blogged, twittered, or even Facebooked.... The server just about worked when I got it, but with six 20 year old disks (I think they are twenty) in a flaky RAID array the thing spent more time recovering dropped disks than it did working. The spin up time is critical, and like me I think these are showing their age and the array controller gets tired of waiting for them to come ready and then the array needs to be checked for consistency. Yuk. I was hoping to get the RAID working and copy the data to elsewhere, and may still try and do that, but for now I have been implementing "Plan B":- 1. Cleaned the floppy drive. It?s a 2.88 and still a little flaky, but it gets used a lot when messing with Microchannel and OS/2. The equivalent of the BIOS config is run from floppy and it needs to be re-run every time you move cards around. The CDs are not bootable and need at least two floppies to get them loading so more reliance on the FDD. Its not simple to change the drive as IBM "re-purposed" some of the lines on the cable that are "gnd" on most drives and used them to pass info about drive. Plan is to try replacing it with a GoTek hack to provide fake disk size info. Some one has done this on a p70. Not sure if this will work here. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56273-PS-2-P70-and-GOTEK-floppy-Emulator-Disk-Change 2. Messed with the RAID firmware, drive links and drives. Its still Foo Bared. The system came with no CD Drive or 9mm DAT fitted. When I popped that back I think it broke the RAID. For now I have un-plugged the RAID card. 3. Installed a BT646 Microchannel SCSI card from E-Bay. Its SCSI/2 but not as fast as the RAID card which is wide and of course can do multiple i/os. 4. Installed a SCSI2SD instead of hard drive. I have a 32Gb card in it which works out a little less than what was in the server. Getting the config right for this proved fun. At present I have it set as 2 x 4gb drives. The rest is un-allocated. 5. There is a SCSI CD ROM on the interface as well. This seems to have fits from time to time. 6. I had a couple of goes at installing OS/2 Warp Server 4 (This is Warp 3 with server components). I couldn't get the server to boot from the SCSI2SD but there is a setting hidden in the Server Config that must have got lost. 7. At this point I had the SCSI2SD set as 2 x 1GB drives but decided I needed more space, so I re-set them as 2 x 4gb. The base OS/2 installed OK but server portion barfed saying not enough free space. I guess a pointer over flows. So spend an hour copying the CD onto the "C" drive several times. It then installed OK. So at this point I had an OS/2 system that booted. I couldn't get the P390 software to install as it wanted Communications Manager and I didn't have it. For those who don't know the base OS/2 has virtually no networking included. IBM chose to separate networking as a separate product, Communications Manager and charge a small fortune for it. I think at this point I also installed service from a WarpUp! CD. I have also installed Netscape 4.6 and InfoZip from this CD but not Java. However, I have since found that Personal Communications which includes 3270 and 5250 terminal emulators also includes a "mini" version of Communications manager and should be sufficient to run the P390 code. I have now installed that but at first I still couldn't get the P/390 support code to install. However, I found I wasn't installing the very latest version of the P390 support code. That has now gone on, after copying one disk in another PC as the drive in the server decided it couldn't read it. I can now load the microcode into the card, but I can't connect the 3270 emulator as a console. I have now re-read the documents and think I know what I need to do, I don't have the IP port in the P390 config matching the port in PCOMMS. I also think I may need to tweak the OS/2 config.sys. At some point I have also zipped up a mainframe OS from Hercules, copied it to a CD and un-zipped it onto the server. Hopefully tomorrow I should be able to load VM/CMS. I also am still having issues with the Video Card. Its IBM SVGA Adaptor/1 which I believe should do 1024 x 768 but its stuck in 800 x 600. I can't get PMVNC to run. It says its started but when I try the config program it says it can't find the started program. Dave > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 12 18:58:31 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 17:58:31 -0600 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <01f101d3ea45$ef0a0290$cd1e07b0$@gmail.com> References: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> <01f101d3ea45$ef0a0290$cd1e07b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1d8edf70-d440-0f89-003d-c59486e7dee5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/12/2018 05:07 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > I was so unsure of what I was doing that I haven't blogged, twittered, > or even Facebooked.... And here I went and asked you to air dirty laundry. ? I'm sorry. But I am grateful that you did so. :-) I did find it an interesting read, and I have a few comments that I'll share inline below. > The server just about worked when I got it, but with six 20 year old > disks (I think they are twenty) in a flaky RAID array the thing spent > more time recovering dropped disks than it did working. The spin up > time is critical, and like me I think these are showing their age and > the array controller gets tired of waiting for them to come ready and > then the array needs to be checked for consistency. Yuk. Ya, I can see how that could be a problem. What sort of RAID are they in? One big six disk RAID 5? Or is it something more exotic? Striping across three sets of two disk mirrors? Is one of them a hot spare? How big are each of the disks? Are they true SCSI? Or are they some variant of SCSI that IBM liked to mess with in the late '90s through the early '00s? Serial Storage Architecture (SSA) comes to mind. If they are standard SCSI, I'd be tempted to hook the drives up to another machine, image them, and likely run SpinRite on them. (Order may depend on their current state.) I might also be tempted to try to have the drives spin up and stay spinning, even if the machine is otherwise off. An external enclosure with separate power would be really nice. At least that would help the typical physical issues that drives tend to have. Then, hopefully the drives would be stable and happy enough that you could focus on the RAID card. > I was hoping to get the RAID working and copy the data to elsewhere, and > may still try and do that, but for now I have been implementing "Plan B":- *nod* Is there still original data on the RAID? Is it just intermittently accessible? Just unstable enough that you can't rely on it for playing / learning? > 1. Cleaned the floppy drive. It?s a 2.88 and still a little flaky, but > it gets used a lot when messing with Microchannel and OS/2. The equivalent > of the BIOS config is run from floppy and it needs to be re-run every time > you move cards around. Yep, I remember the System Reference Disks. ? I've been messing with a Compaq ProLiant that has similar programs, but they reside on a partition on the drive. Making it a little easier to run them. > The CDs are not bootable and need at least two floppies to get them > loading so more reliance on the FDD. *nod*nod* My how things have changed. > Its not simple to change the drive as IBM "re-purposed" some of the lines > on the cable that are "gnd" on most drives and used them to pass info > about drive. Plan is to try replacing it with a GoTek hack to provide > fake disk size info. Some one has done this on a p70. Not sure if this > will work here. Grr! I think I'd heard that before, but did not realize the implications until now. > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56273-PS-2-P70-and-GOTEK-floppy-Emulator-Disk-Change joy Well, at least it's information that might be a helpful start. Do you need the 2.88 MB disk drive? I thought that OS/2 and the System Reference (configuration) disks were 1.44 MB. I'm wondering if you might be able to trade it out with a 1.44 MB drive that might be a little bit happier. Also, I think that ThinkPad's used similar (decedent?) floppy technology. There might be something you could take from ThinkPads and get it to work (with adapter) in the PC Server 500. > 2. Messed with the RAID firmware, drive links and drives. Its still > Foo Bared. The system came with no CD Drive or 9mm DAT fitted. When I > popped that back I think it broke the RAID. For now I have un-plugged > the RAID card. ACK That means that the existing RAID array is inaccessible. > 3. Installed a BT646 Microchannel SCSI card from E-Bay. Its SCSI/2 but not > as fast as the RAID card which is wide and of course can do multiple i/os. I wonder if the RAID card has a RAM cache on it, and if the RAM might be failing. Lord knows what it would take to replace the RAM. Maybe the cache could be disabled? > 4. Installed a SCSI2SD instead of hard drive. I have a 32Gb card in it > which works out a little less than what was in the server. Getting the > config right for this proved fun. At present I have it set as 2 x 4gb > drives. The rest is un-allocated. I've not yet had the pleasure of working with a SCSI to SD adapter. I'm going to be messing with a Compaq Deskpro XL 560 which uses SCSI. I"m hoping to use a SCSI-to-SATA adapter and then use a small SATA SSD. *Hoping!* > 5. There is a SCSI CD ROM on the interface as well. This seems to have > fits from time to time. I thought the SCSI CD-ROM was fairly standard. Meaning you can probably trade it out with a different SCSI CD-ROM or possibly even a DVD-ROM. Sure it's not authentic, but it might be happier hardware. Pick which problem you want to fight when. ;-) > 6. I had a couple of goes at installing OS/2 Warp Server 4 (This is Warp > 3 with server components). I couldn't get the server to boot from the > SCSI2SD but there is a setting hidden in the Server Config that must > have got lost. If memory serves, you need to specify which card to boot from. I don't recall if the system config specifies what drive on what card or just what card and subsequently relying on the card to know what drive (or fixed ID) to boot from. I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that there was a partition size / location / ID requirement to be able to boot. I've long had problems getting OS/2 Warp 4 (CD from IBM) installed when booting from disks made from images on the CD. I want to say that OS/2 and / or it's boot manager had to have the boot manager / partition be less than ~500 MB and within the first 2 GB of the drive. I don't know that it was 500 MB exactly. It's likely some multiple of or power of 2 or 10 and / or a binary counter width. Remember the drives that would have been available for use when the machine came out. Also, the RAID likely did some translation and might be able to take larger drives than the machine could handle directly. > 7. At this point I had the SCSI2SD set as 2 x 1GB drives but decided I > needed more space, so I re-set them as 2 x 4gb. The base OS/2 installed > OK but server portion barfed saying not enough free space. I guess a > pointer over flows. So spend an hour copying the CD onto the "C" drive > several times. It then installed OK. I think I've heard tell of using a small partition for OS/2's boot manager and then maybe a 4 GB partition for the OS. I believe that OS/2 will use drives / partitions larger than 4 GB, but they may be effectively limited to data drives. All the reading that I've done on the P/390 installations have always had the P/390 stuff on separate drives, typically D:. > So at this point I had an OS/2 system that booted. I couldn't get the > P390 software to install as it wanted Communications Manager and I > didn't have it. Oops! > For those who don't know the base OS/2 has virtually no networking > included. IBM chose to separate networking as a separate product, > Communications Manager and charge a small fortune for it. I don't know if that was specifically chosen on purpose or a side effect of how things were distributed at the time. Remember that Most OSs didn't have native networking ability. Windows 3.x got it as somewhat of a back port very late. Windows 95 had minimal networking when it first came out. I think most of Windows networking was introduced in NT and shifted to 3.x / 95. Also, I believe that Communications Manager was a product that could be added to an earlier version of OS/2 (same major version) that added networking. Even when I install Warp 4 in VM, I see that the Base OS gets installed and then the Communications Manager (read: server) components get added later. I believe this also patterns after what mainframe OSs and other unixes did at the time too. Ultimately I don't think this was malicious / extortionist behavior. Rather differences at the time. > I think at this point I also installed service from a WarpUp! CD. I have > also installed Netscape 4.6 and InfoZip from this CD but not Java. Nice. > However, I have since found that Personal Communications which includes > 3270 and 5250 terminal emulators also includes a "mini" version of > Communications manager and should be sufficient to run the P390 code. Eh.... I don't think that /I/ would bet on that. Maybe that is the case. I've run into multiple different versions of / products from IBM that have communications in the name. I think that Communications Manager was the networking add on for (and rolled into later versions of) OS/2. The Personal Communications that I've run into was more a client application including a terminal emulator. > I have now installed that but at first I still couldn't get the P/390 > support code to install. However, I found I wasn't installing the very > latest version of the P390 support code. That has now gone on, after > copying one disk in another PC as the drive in the server decided it > couldn't read it. I can now load the microcode into the card, but I > can't connect the 3270 emulator as a console. *nod* See previous comment about 1.44 MB vs 2.88 MB disks and what you truly need. > I have now re-read the documents and think I know what I need to do, I > don't have the IP port in the P390 config matching the port in PCOMMS. Hum. I wonder how networking on the P/390 and it's emulated 3174 (?) Establishment controller work. If it's anything like Hercules, you'll need one IP for the P/390 and a different IP from OS/2. ? I could easily be completely wrong. > I also think I may need to tweak the OS/2 config.sys. Quite likely. I think the vast majority of OS/2's config lives in the config.sys file (or other similar files) and requires a reboot to apply the new settings. > At some point I have also zipped up a mainframe OS from Hercules, copied > it to a CD and un-zipped it onto the server. Hopefully tomorrow I should > be able to load VM/CMS. I'll be interested to see how that turns out. > I also am still having issues with the Video Card. Its IBM SVGA Adaptor/1 > which I believe should do 1024 x 768 but its stuck in 800 x 600. Hum. I've found video drivers under OS/2 to be questionable. I've been stuck in VM, which has it's own problems. > I can't get PMVNC to run. It says its started but when I try the config > program it says it can't find the started program. :-( Thank you for sharing, it was a very interesting read. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From linimon at lonesome.com Sat May 12 19:09:47 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 19:09:47 -0500 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: <20180512132805.4625418C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <008801d3ea08$60fd7e60$22f87b20$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20180513000947.GA13405@lonesome.com> On Sat, May 12, 2018 at 03:42:11PM -0700, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > I would have had to add a new circuit to the room. So who hasn't? :-) mcl From cclist at sydex.com Sat May 12 20:03:53 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 18:03:53 -0700 Subject: More ancient memory In-Reply-To: <80682e40-1ffb-7209-bc44-87799d84d284@sydex.com> References: <33c825aa-db4f-ea7f-0813-2a3cb2005a0b@sydex.com> <163565f266f-1dd3-1a67b@webjas-vac248.srv.aolmail.net> <80682e40-1ffb-7209-bc44-87799d84d284@sydex.com> Message-ID: I found this interesting article: http://pichotjm.free.fr/DisplayDL/DisplayDLus.html that discusses an ASCII video terminal from about 1970 that employs a bunch of PAL TV 64 usec. piezo delay devices as a way to reduce cost. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 12 21:36:01 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 12 May 2018 22:36:01 -0400 Subject: found what I believe are a few vrc drum pickup heads too bad photos don't post here interested parties,can email In-Reply-To: <80682e40-1ffb-7209-bc44-87799d84d284@sydex.com> References: <80682e40-1ffb-7209-bc44-87799d84d284@sydex.com> Message-ID: <163575ad46a-17a3-c866@webjas-vae128.srv.aolmail.net> not these heads..... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, May 12, 2018 Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: My guess was MADRE or NRL: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Over-the-horizon_radar The timing would be right. Acoustic delay lines served the same purpose, but you couldn't have a mercury delay line in an airplane, practically speaking. --Chuck From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun May 13 05:00:37 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 11:00:37 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <1d8edf70-d440-0f89-003d-c59486e7dee5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <00bf01d3e9e4$f166fc70$d434f550$@gmail.com> <01f101d3ea45$ef0a0290$cd1e07b0$@gmail.com> <1d8edf70-d440-0f89-003d-c59486e7dee5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <022401d3eaa1$3ec44240$bc4cc6c0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 13 May 2018 00:59 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > On 05/12/2018 05:07 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > I was so unsure of what I was doing that I haven't blogged, twittered, > > or even Facebooked.... > > And here I went and asked you to air dirty laundry. ? I'm sorry. > > But I am grateful that you did so. :-) I did find it an interesting read, and I > have a few comments that I'll share inline below. > Actually it was good to run through what I had done and write it down. I am a volunteer at the museum of science and industry and when I work there we record everything in a log book. I don't follow the same discipline at home but it would be a good idea. > > The server just about worked when I got it, but with six 20 year old > > disks (I think they are twenty) in a flaky RAID array the thing spent > > more time recovering dropped disks than it did working. The spin up > > time is critical, and like me I think these are showing their age and > > the array controller gets tired of waiting for them to come ready and > > then the array needs to be checked for consistency. Yuk. > > Ya, I can see how that could be a problem. > > What sort of RAID are they in? One big six disk RAID 5? Or is it something > more exotic? Striping across three sets of two disk mirrors? > Is one of them a hot spare? > > How big are each of the disks? > > Are they true SCSI? Or are they some variant of SCSI that IBM liked to mess > with in the late '90s through the early '00s? Serial Storage Architecture (SSA) > comes to mind. > > If they are standard SCSI, I'd be tempted to hook the drives up to another > machine, image them, and likely run SpinRite on them. (Order may depend > on their current state.) > > I might also be tempted to try to have the drives spin up and stay spinning, > even if the machine is otherwise off. An external enclosure with separate > power would be really nice. At least that would help the typical physical > issues that drives tend to have. > > Then, hopefully the drives would be stable and happy enough that you could > focus on the RAID card. > I have tried to keep the drives spinning but it doesn't' work. The RAID card wants to control the power to the drives. There is info on the RAID card here. http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/RAID/RAID_Cheetah.html and the server page has pictures of the drive bays here:- http://ohlandl.ipv7.net/8641/8641.html I the day it was a very nice system. There are several IBM letters about mods to the RAID and backplanes and I think they have all been done. There are more notes on how to recover from it marking a drive "defunct" which I have followed to the letter. I did get it to work once when I managed to IPL MVS on the P390 so I hope the data is still intact, but next time I booted the system we were back to defunct drives so a day or so would be required to recover. They are real SCSI drives with I think SCA connectors. I think they are "double height" 4gb drives (they are vertical in the machine so double width) giving 40gb for the 6 drive RAID. > > I was hoping to get the RAID working and copy the data to elsewhere, > > and may still try and do that, but for now I have been implementing > > "Plan B":- > > *nod* > > Is there still original data on the RAID? Is it just intermittently accessible? > Just unstable enough that you can't rely on it for playing / learning? > If a drive doesn't spin up quickly enough it marks it DEFUNCT (DDD). If you can get it to spin up it can be brought back on-line BUT this requires a lengthy check procedure which means booting from floppy. > > 1. Cleaned the floppy drive. It?s a 2.88 and still a little flaky, but > > it gets used a lot when messing with Microchannel and OS/2. The > > equivalent of the BIOS config is run from floppy and it needs to be > > re-run every time you move cards around. > > Yep, I remember the System Reference Disks. ? I've been messing with a > Compaq ProLiant that has similar programs, but they reside on a partition on > the drive. Making it a little easier to run them. > > > The CDs are not bootable and need at least two floppies to get them > > loading so more reliance on the FDD. > > *nod*nod* > > My how things have changed. > > > Its not simple to change the drive as IBM "re-purposed" some of the > > lines on the cable that are "gnd" on most drives and used them to pass > > info about drive. Plan is to try replacing it with a GoTek hack to > > provide fake disk size info. Some one has done this on a p70. Not > > sure if this will work here. > > Grr! I think I'd heard that before, but did not realize the implications until > now. > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?56273-PS-2-P70-and- > GOTEK-flo > > ppy-Emulator-Disk-Change > > joy > > Well, at least it's information that might be a helpful start. > > Do you need the 2.88 MB disk drive? I thought that OS/2 and the System > Reference (configuration) disks were 1.44 MB. I'm wondering if you might be > able to trade it out with a 1.44 MB drive that might be a little bit happier. > Not sure, but the only drives I have found that work on the odd-ball cable were 2.44. I bought one on E-Bay and it also seems to work so I have a spare. > Also, I think that ThinkPad's used similar (decedent?) floppy technology. > There might be something you could take from ThinkPads and get it to work > (with adapter) in the PC Server 500. > > > 2. Messed with the RAID firmware, drive links and drives. Its still > > Foo Bared. The system came with no CD Drive or 9mm DAT fitted. When I > > popped that back I think it broke the RAID. For now I have un-plugged > > the RAID card. > > ACK > > That means that the existing RAID array is inaccessible. > > > 3. Installed a BT646 Microchannel SCSI card from E-Bay. Its SCSI/2 but > > not as fast as the RAID card which is wide and of course can do multiple > i/os. > > I wonder if the RAID card has a RAM cache on it, and if the RAM might be > failing. Lord knows what it would take to replace the RAM. Maybe the cache > could be disabled? > No the RAID card works when the disks spin up OK. This has always been an issue with that card. I think folks just kept the thing running 24 hours a day. > > 4. Installed a SCSI2SD instead of hard drive. I have a 32Gb card in it > > which works out a little less than what was in the server. Getting > > the config right for this proved fun. At present I have it set as 2 x > > 4gb drives. The rest is un-allocated. > > I've not yet had the pleasure of working with a SCSI to SD adapter. > > I'm going to be messing with a Compaq Deskpro XL 560 which uses SCSI. > I"m hoping to use a SCSI-to-SATA adapter and then use a small SATA SSD. > *Hoping!* > The SCSI2SD is an expensive card but its very versatile. Up to V5.1 you can split the card into four drives. You can define these as Hard Disk, CD or Floppy. You can disable/enable SCSI/2 and Parity. You can set the start-up and select delays. Newer cards (v6 onwards) are proprietary but do more disks. Useful for getting large amounts of space on old machines that only do 1GB SCSI drives. > > 5. There is a SCSI CD ROM on the interface as well. This seems to have > > fits from time to time. > > I thought the SCSI CD-ROM was fairly standard. Meaning you can probably > trade it out with a different SCSI CD-ROM or possibly even a DVD-ROM. > > Sure it's not authentic, but it might be happier hardware. Pick which problem > you want to fight when. ;-) > Actually, the IBM SCSI CD rom that came with the system seems the most reliable. It reads CDR media just fine which the one I have for the Microvax(s) doesn't. It also has sector size select so I assume it will work in the VAX as well. From what I remember OS/2 is picky about SCSI CD drives and has different drivers for some types. > > 6. I had a couple of goes at installing OS/2 Warp Server 4 (This is > > Warp > > 3 with server components). I couldn't get the server to boot from the > > SCSI2SD but there is a setting hidden in the Server Config that must > > have got lost. > > If memory serves, you need to specify which card to boot from. I don't recall > if the system config specifies what drive on what card or just what card and > subsequently relying on the card to know what drive (or fixed ID) to boot > from. > > I wouldn't be completely surprised to learn that there was a partition size / > location / ID requirement to be able to boot. > > I've long had problems getting OS/2 Warp 4 (CD from IBM) installed when > booting from disks made from images on the CD. > > I want to say that OS/2 and / or it's boot manager had to have the boot > manager / partition be less than ~500 MB and within the first 2 GB of the > drive. > > I don't know that it was 500 MB exactly. It's likely some multiple of or power > of 2 or 10 and / or a binary counter width. > > Remember the drives that would have been available for use when the > machine came out. > > Also, the RAID likely did some translation and might be able to take larger > drives than the machine could handle directly. > The BT SCSI card will do some of this. It has a BIOS and an option for >4gb drives so the server sees the two drives I have as 0 and 1 and can boot from them I think it?s a really good SCSI card. > > 7. At this point I had the SCSI2SD set as 2 x 1GB drives but decided > > I needed more space, so I re-set them as 2 x 4gb. The base OS/2 > > installed OK but server portion barfed saying not enough free space. I > > guess a pointer over flows. So spend an hour copying the CD onto the > > "C" drive several times. It then installed OK. > > I think I've heard tell of using a small partition for OS/2's boot manager and > then maybe a 4 GB partition for the OS. > > I believe that OS/2 will use drives / partitions larger than 4 GB, but they may > be effectively limited to data drives. > > All the reading that I've done on the P/390 installations have always had the > P/390 stuff on separate drives, typically D:. > Yes I actually have saved a bit of space on the first hard drive for other things... > > So at this point I had an OS/2 system that booted. I couldn't get the > > P390 software to install as it wanted Communications Manager and I > > didn't have it. > > Oops! > > > For those who don't know the base OS/2 has virtually no networking > > included. IBM chose to separate networking as a separate product, > > Communications Manager and charge a small fortune for it. > > I don't know if that was specifically chosen on purpose or a side effect of how > things were distributed at the time. > > Remember that Most OSs didn't have native networking ability. Windows 3.x > got it as somewhat of a back port very late. Windows 95 had minimal > networking when it first came out. I think most of Windows networking was > introduced in NT and shifted to 3.x / 95. > > Also, I believe that Communications Manager was a product that could be > added to an earlier version of OS/2 (same major version) that added > networking. > > Even when I install Warp 4 in VM, I see that the Base OS gets installed and > then the Communications Manager (read: server) components get added > later. > > I believe this also patterns after what mainframe OSs and other unixes did at > the time too. > > Ultimately I don't think this was malicious / extortionist behavior. > Rather differences at the time. > I think whilst much of the above was true, it was mainly about making money. CM cost nearly twice what you paid for the base OS/2. IBM produced several "crippled" versions of Networking in OS/2 that would only do TCP/IP via a modem. If you read around there are several hacks to get this talking to the networking stack in Warp/Connect to talk TCP/IP over the LAN. I think some of this was a mis-reading of the Market by IBM at the time, they didn't realise how the PC market was changing so PCs were a commodity. When Windows/95 came out with smooth support for Windows/3 apps but with 32-bit apps as well, TCP/IP server and client included, and a much quicker and simpler install for users, OS/2 had to be dead in the water. Many will say "OS/2 was technically superior" but if you can't afford it, you use what you can afford. It wasn't only IBM that miss read the market. Having spent a week installing DEC Pathworks for Windows client licences on a room full of PCs so they could connect to a copy of Netware running under VMS on Alpha, when no such mucking about was needed for Netware on PC hardware I can see why they failed. Yes the alpha had a faster CPU but the disks were the same and the Mylex Raid controllers in Alphas were as bad as the Cheeta in the PC Server 500 (I think they share some code). Any way rant over.... > > I think at this point I also installed service from a WarpUp! CD. I > > have also installed Netscape 4.6 and InfoZip from this CD but not Java. > > Nice. > > > However, I have since found that Personal Communications which > > includes > > 3270 and 5250 terminal emulators also includes a "mini" version of > > Communications manager and should be sufficient to run the P390 code. > > Eh.... I don't think that /I/ would bet on that. Maybe that is the case. > I checked with others off list. They tell me theirs works with just PCOMMS 4.2. > I've run into multiple different versions of / products from IBM that have > communications in the name. I think that Communications Manager was the > networking add on for (and rolled into later versions of) OS/2. > The Personal Communications that I've run into was more a client application > including a terminal emulator. > PCOMMS is "just" a client emulator, but as OS/2 has no comms stack when you install it on OS/2 if its to work with no pre-reqs, it has to include a complete comms stack. It will talk to a mainframe over TCP/IP but it will also talk directly to SNA over LAN and WAN and also via dedicated 3270 hardware. It will do SNA over SDLC. On windows it installs several services so you can trace token ring traffic. Perhaps more than just a client emulator, but these days that?s how its used. > > I have now installed that but at first I still couldn't get the P/390 > > support code to install. However, I found I wasn't installing the very > > latest version of the P390 support code. That has now gone on, after > > copying one disk in another PC as the drive in the server decided it > > couldn't read it. I can now load the microcode into the card, but I > > can't connect the 3270 emulator as a console. > > *nod* > > See previous comment about 1.44 MB vs 2.88 MB disks and what you truly > need. > > > I have now re-read the documents and think I know what I need to do, I > > don't have the IP port in the P390 config matching the port in PCOMMS. > > Hum. I wonder how networking on the P/390 and it's emulated 3174 (?) > Establishment controller work. > > If it's anything like Hercules, you'll need one IP for the P/390 and a different > IP from OS/2. ? I could easily be completely wrong. > Not sure myself. I haven't configured that yet. I figure I don't need it yet as like Hercules the 3174 device emulator will do TN3270 to local non-SNA 3270. > > I also think I may need to tweak the OS/2 config.sys. > > Quite likely. I think the vast majority of OS/2's config lives in the config.sys > file (or other similar files) and requires a reboot to apply the new settings. > > > At some point I have also zipped up a mainframe OS from Hercules, > > copied it to a CD and un-zipped it onto the server. Hopefully tomorrow > > I should be able to load VM/CMS. > > I'll be interested to see how that turns out. > > > I also am still having issues with the Video Card. Its IBM SVGA > > Adaptor/1 which I believe should do 1024 x 768 but its stuck in 800 x 600. > > Hum. > > I've found video drivers under OS/2 to be questionable. I've been stuck in > VM, which has it's own problems. > > > I can't get PMVNC to run. It says its started but when I try the > > config program it says it can't find the started program. > > :-( > > Thank you for sharing, it was a very interesting read. > > No problems Grant. Its 11.00 AM in the UK so time to wake the XYL (X Young Lady, a term used by hams to refer to their wifes in Morse Code. One which has not made to text speak). It?s a sunny day so probably won't get to play until tea time... > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 13 07:33:20 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 08:33:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Anyone need KB11-B FMPS? Message-ID: <20180513123320.47E5B18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I've just realized that the KB11-B (the earlier -11/70 CPU, the KB11-C being the later) FMPS is not online; I couldn't find them (but then my Google-fu is notoriously weak, q.v. the Motorola 4015 - thanks all, BTW), but Manx also says: http://manx-docs.org/details.php/1,9214 they aren't available. So, I have a set (got it not too long ago on eBait). Does anyone need these? Only my 8x11 scanner has auto-feed, so I'm not up to doing the whole thing, but I'm prepared to go through and scan the things that are different from the KB11-C (the prints for which _are_ available); the M8133 and M8138, and whatever else is different (flow diagrams, etc). Noel From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun May 13 08:36:47 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 09:36:47 -0400 Subject: Sparc Laptops Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 11 May 2018 23:11:57 -0500 > From: "Sam O'nella" > Subject: Re: Sparc Laptops > > Yes the IBMs are worth tracking down. I always keep my eye out but rarely > see them come up for sale but it'd be fun to have an RS/6000 that doesn't > cause a hernia to move. My only similar one is a tadpole but I don't recall > the version. I used a universal power supply to get it to run for a little > while but then I'm pretty sure the backlight on the lcd popped and went > out. So I'm also a member of the almost but not quite functioning owners > club. :-) Would gladly get rid of some Ultras if I could upgrade to a > portable. > The Tadpole with the 50MHz PowerPC processor was sold as an IBM N40. I have one of those too. -- Michael Thompson From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun May 13 10:02:15 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 10:02:15 -0500 Subject: Zenith Z-90 startup In-Reply-To: References: <777692e1-f85e-28b1-a1a3-0a7cbd3c2ea8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <32232da6-96bc-58c9-2345-0fd84d5dfa3c@gmail.com> On 05/12/2018 02:29 PM, Mister PDP wrote: > Hello, > > I have had this issue with a number of H/Z89s I have. The terminal board > and the logic board are two separate systems, so it seems to be common for > the logic board to go down while the terminal board keeps working. I would > check voltages on the logic board, then take it out of look for blown > tantalum caps and burnt traces. The tantalum caps used in these systems > seems to like to cause issues, with 5\8 of my systems experiencing issues > with them. If that doesn't do the trick then check the power regulators on > the logic board, as those can cause issues too. Thanks, I'll take a look. I've actually got lots of technical docs for the system... schematics, firmware source listings, CP/M BIOS source listings etc. - Zenith seemed to be really good in that regard. If it's not somehow expected behavior then I'll do some digging regarding caps, voltages etc. and go from there. Will reseat chips, too - when I pulled* the boards yesterday to do some general checks I did notice quite a bit of tarnishing on IC legs, which makes me wonder if some of them haven't rotted from the inside-out (as they sometimes do). * What an odd setup! Nice hinged case for access to the inside, but then lots of unscrewing and unplugging stuff and digging around right next to the CRT in order to actually *do* anything. I half wonder if Zenith's intention wasn't to make all the boards hinge out backwards too, and then they found that they just couldn't quite make it work. cheers Jules From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 13 13:25:17 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 14:25:17 -0400 Subject: drum heads chuck check you company email for pic Message-ID: <1635abfea42-1dd3-1d898@webjas-vad198.srv.aolmail.net> drum heads chuck check you company email for pic Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de Sun May 13 00:51:53 2018 From: mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de (Waldemar Brodkorb) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 07:51:53 +0200 Subject: micro pdp11/83 power supply Message-ID: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Hi, I started to revive an old Micro PDP11/83 I have for over 12 years now. It is fully assembled and last time I tried to start the machine it some kind of started. My biggest issue at the moment is the power supply. After the machine is running for a while, let's say 10 minutes and then when I poweroff, the power supply starts producing a lot of dense smoke. The smell is very penetrant. What can I do with the power supply? Do I need to exchange it completely or just parts of it? At the moment I removed it from the case like described here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf Thanks in advance for any starting hints, Waldemar From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sun May 13 01:08:10 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 16:08:10 +1000 Subject: micro pdp11/83 power supply In-Reply-To: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> References: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Message-ID: Check the mains filter x2 capacitor. Sent from my iPad > On 13 May 2018, at 3:51 pm, Waldemar Brodkorb via cctech wrote: > > Hi, > > I started to revive an old Micro PDP11/83 I have for over 12 years > now. It is fully assembled and last time I tried to start the > machine it some kind of started. > My biggest issue at the moment is the power supply. > > After the machine is running for a while, let's say 10 minutes and > then when I poweroff, the power supply starts producing a lot of > dense smoke. The smell is very penetrant. > > What can I do with the power supply? Do I need to exchange it > completely or just parts of it? > > At the moment I removed it from the case like described here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf > > Thanks in advance for any starting hints, > Waldemar From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun May 13 08:18:38 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 09:18:38 -0400 Subject: micro pdp11/83 power supply In-Reply-To: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> References: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Message-ID: On 05/13/2018 01:51 AM, Waldemar Brodkorb via cctech wrote: > Hi, > > I started to revive an old Micro PDP11/83 I have for over 12 years > now. It is fully assembled and last time I tried to start the > machine it some kind of started. > My biggest issue at the moment is the power supply. > > After the machine is running for a while, let's say 10 minutes and > then when I poweroff, the power supply starts producing a lot of > dense smoke. The smell is very penetrant. > > What can I do with the power supply? Do I need to exchange it > completely or just parts of it? > > At the moment I removed it from the case like described here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf > > Thanks in advance for any starting hints, > Waldemar Make sure the cause is not the cable from the PS to the Back plane.? Inspect the plugs for burnt for signs of over heating. There were two versions of the cable on had all the wires unequal length to make the bend pretty, the preferred one has all the wires equal size. Allison From mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de Sun May 13 13:50:40 2018 From: mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de (Waldemar Brodkorb) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 20:50:40 +0200 Subject: micro pdp11/83 power supply In-Reply-To: References: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Message-ID: <20180513185040.GD2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Hi, yes the smaller one with 0,22 microF X" is blown up. Do you know where to buy these? best regards Waldemar David Collins wrote, > Check the mains filter x2 capacitor. > > Sent from my iPad > > > On 13 May 2018, at 3:51 pm, Waldemar Brodkorb via cctech wrote: > > > > Hi, > > > > I started to revive an old Micro PDP11/83 I have for over 12 years > > now. It is fully assembled and last time I tried to start the > > machine it some kind of started. > > My biggest issue at the moment is the power supply. > > > > After the machine is running for a while, let's say 10 minutes and > > then when I poweroff, the power supply starts producing a lot of > > dense smoke. The smell is very penetrant. > > > > What can I do with the power supply? Do I need to exchange it > > completely or just parts of it? > > > > At the moment I removed it from the case like described here: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf > > > > Thanks in advance for any starting hints, > > Waldemar > From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 13 16:39:26 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 13 May 2018 17:39:26 -0400 Subject: ever wanted to own your own set McGraw-Hill's Compilation of Open Systems Standards (McGraw-Hill data communications book series) (1991-01-30) Hardcove Message-ID: <1635b71ac34-1dae-1e6e6@webjas-vae090.srv.aolmail.net> ever wanted to own your own set?McGraw-Hill's Compilation of Open Systems Standards (McGraw-Hill data communications book series) (1991-01-30)?Hardcoverdrop me a line? ?off list...? thx? ? ? Ed# From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon May 14 10:42:24 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 08:42:24 -0700 Subject: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? In-Reply-To: <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> References: <313ec12f-709b-bac1-28e0-ad21daf426a4@bitsavers.org> <3164138c-a962-4ce1-cadf-7b9cb167f2a3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <09f801d3eb9a$28326a80$78973f80$@gmail.com> Sweet. Thanks Al! Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 11, 2018 11:30 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone have an HP 12661A DVS card manual, 12661-90004? scanned, and uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/21xx/interfaces From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon May 14 18:16:42 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 00:16:42 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 - now running Message-ID: <006d01d3ebd9$9f059490$dd10bdb0$@gmail.com> Folks, Just to say I did end up doing a re-install of OS/2 on a smaller drive, which took most of today, but the P390 software is now installed and I have loaded VM/CMS and IPL'd a simple 3-pack system copied from Hercules. The readme that comes with the P/390 V2.5 software explains how to set up the systems so PCOMMS can talk to it. I still don't have the screen resolution working at 1024 x 768 which the manual says it should. Oh and PMVNC also runs so I can remote control the beast. It was all a bit of a slog, mostly because OS/2 is a bit of a slog. The P/390 was the easy part. Thanks to all who helped, Dave From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Mon May 14 18:32:11 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 23:32:11 +0000 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 - now running In-Reply-To: <006d01d3ebd9$9f059490$dd10bdb0$@gmail.com> References: <006d01d3ebd9$9f059490$dd10bdb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I seem to recall having to install some vram chips on my P/390 to get 1024x768 resolution, but I think that was on my PC Server 330... I?m glad you got it working! That is awesome! Did you get networking functional? Have fun! -Ben Sent from my iPhone > On May 14, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > Folks, > > Just to say I did end up doing a re-install of OS/2 on a smaller drive, which took most of today, but the P390 software is now installed and I have loaded VM/CMS and IPL'd a simple 3-pack system copied from Hercules. The readme that comes with the P/390 V2.5 software explains how to set up the systems so PCOMMS can talk to it. I still don't have the screen resolution working at 1024 x 768 which the manual says it should. Oh and PMVNC also runs so I can remote control the beast. It was all a bit of a slog, mostly because OS/2 is a bit of a slog. The P/390 was the easy part. > > Thanks to all who helped, > > Dave > > > From athornton at gmail.com Mon May 14 21:02:51 2018 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Mon, 14 May 2018 19:02:51 -0700 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 Message-ID: I Frankensteined a P/390 together out of a P/325 server and the PCI P/390 card back in the day. I assume you do have the LIC for the P/390 card, without which you?re dead in the water. At least the PCI model wasn?t picky about the disks it used. And I?m pretty sure it?ll work with whatever the final Warp Server release was (4, maybe?) by which time the native TCP/IP support was a lot better. It was a nice little machine for its day, although Hercules is now many times its speed on modern hardware. I used mine to run VM/CMS and Linux (under VM) quite well. Adam From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 15 00:51:54 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 07:51:54 +0200 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 15 May 2018 at 06:19, Adam Thornton via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > And I?m pretty sure it?ll work with whatever the final Warp Server release was (4, maybe?) by which time the native TCP/IP support was a lot better. Warp Server 4.5, I believe. Specifically 4.52 with various fixpacks, IIRC. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 15 01:29:27 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 07:29:27 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adam Thornton > via cctalk > Sent: 15 May 2018 03:03 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > I Frankensteined a P/390 together out of a P/325 server and the PCI P/390 > card back in the day. > I am told the PCI card is rather choosy about which servers it will run in. The system came with most of a P330 as well, but no case. > I assume you do have the LIC for the P/390 card, without which you?re dead > in the water. > The latest version of the PC support tools simply load it from the P390 Advanced Diagnostics Disk. This was the bit I was worried about but it wasn't a problem at all. > At least the PCI model wasn?t picky about the disks it used. And I?m pretty > sure it?ll work with whatever the final Warp Server release was (4, maybe?) > by which time the native TCP/IP support was a lot better. It was a nice little > machine for its day, although Hercules is now many times its speed on > modern hardware. It?s the RAID card that?s the problem, and it seems to have always been temperamental. Did you use RAID in your P/325? > > I used mine to run VM/CMS and Linux (under VM) quite well. > I was thinking of trying Linux. I assume you ran Debian? > Adam Dave From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 15 01:40:16 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 07:40:16 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 - now running In-Reply-To: References: <006d01d3ebd9$9f059490$dd10bdb0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <000601d3ec17$960f62b0$c22e2810$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Benjamin Huntsman > Sent: 15 May 2018 00:32 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 - now running > > I seem to recall having to install some vram chips on my P/390 to get > 1024x768 resolution, but I think that was on my PC Server 330... It?s a separate display card. Real pain. The server came with a dead Cirrus Logic card but it now has an "IBM Display Adaptor/A" (I think) which should do 1024x768x256 colors. Must check. > > I?m glad you got it working! That is awesome! Did you get networking > functional? > Not through to VM. That?s next (after sorting the display) > Have fun! > > -Ben > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On May 14, 2018, at 4:16 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Folks, > > > > Just to say I did end up doing a re-install of OS/2 on a smaller drive, which > took most of today, but the P390 software is now installed and I have loaded > VM/CMS and IPL'd a simple 3-pack system copied from Hercules. The > readme that comes with the P/390 V2.5 software explains how to set up the > systems so PCOMMS can talk to it. I still don't have the screen resolution > working at 1024 x 768 which the manual says it should. Oh and PMVNC also > runs so I can remote control the beast. It was all a bit of a slog, mostly > because OS/2 is a bit of a slog. The P/390 was the easy part. > > > > Thanks to all who helped, > > > > Dave > > > > > > From sales at elecplus.com Tue May 15 14:43:40 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 14:43:40 -0500 Subject: Old Toshiba laptop, tested Message-ID: <030001d3ec85$06ea4be0$14bee3a0$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/vintage-computers/toshiba-3100-20-notebook-teste d.html If you have your RRS feed on then you already know this J https://www.elecshopper.com/rss/ Adding more rodents and other small items soon. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue May 15 15:29:27 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 21:29:27 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Adam Thornton > Sent: 15 May 2018 16:35 > To: Dave Wade ; cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 14, 2018, at 11:29 PM, Dave Wade > wrote: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adam > >> Thornton via cctalk > >> Sent: 15 May 2018 03:03 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > >> > >> I Frankensteined a P/390 together out of a P/325 server and the PCI > >> P/390 card back in the day. > >> > > > > I am told the PCI card is rather choosy about which servers it will run in. The > system came with most of a P330 as well, but no case. > > > It is pretty picky. It did not run in a whitebox PC I had at the time, but the PC > Server 325 was close enough to its expected host that it was happy. I would > guess that any of the IBM x86 server machines from the right general era > would work. > > That machine now lives at the Living Computer Museum in Seattle, although I > do not know if they have it available for use. > OK I got a PCI P390 card in the bundle of spares but have nothing PCI server style to run it in. Where I worked we binned loads of X330's which might have been usable... > > > > > > It?s the RAID card that?s the problem, and it seems to have always been > temperamental. Did you use RAID in your P/325? > > > I don?t think I did. Have you tried just putting a different (OS/2-supported) > disk controller in and just not doing RAID? > That?s, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every thing must be on the MCA bus. So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a >4GB drive option. OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find the drive and install the proper drivers. To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > >> > >> I used mine to run VM/CMS and Linux (under VM) quite well. > >> > > > > I was thinking of trying Linux. I assume you ran Debian? > > > Indeed I did, although also SLES. I assume you found my NASPA article on > Debian on 390 from 2004? > I think that?s the one... > Adam > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue May 15 15:38:59 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 13:38:59 -0700 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > > That?s, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every thing must be on the MCA bus. > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a >4GB drive option. > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find the drive and install the proper drivers. > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I?ll install AIX on and have an R/390. ;-) I haven?t had the time yet to make any progress on it. But it?s good to know that you?ve managed to do this if I decide to go back and attempt the PC route again. TTFN - Guy From athornton at gmail.com Tue May 15 10:35:06 2018 From: athornton at gmail.com (Adam Thornton) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 08:35:06 -0700 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> > On May 14, 2018, at 11:29 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adam Thornton >> via cctalk >> Sent: 15 May 2018 03:03 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 >> >> I Frankensteined a P/390 together out of a P/325 server and the PCI P/390 >> card back in the day. >> > > I am told the PCI card is rather choosy about which servers it will run in. The system came with most of a P330 as well, but no case. It is pretty picky. It did not run in a whitebox PC I had at the time, but the PC Server 325 was close enough to its expected host that it was happy. I would guess that any of the IBM x86 server machines from the right general era would work. That machine now lives at the Living Computer Museum in Seattle, although I do not know if they have it available for use. > > > It?s the RAID card that?s the problem, and it seems to have always been temperamental. Did you use RAID in your P/325? I don?t think I did. Have you tried just putting a different (OS/2-supported) disk controller in and just not doing RAID? > >> >> I used mine to run VM/CMS and Linux (under VM) quite well. >> > > I was thinking of trying Linux. I assume you ran Debian? Indeed I did, although also SLES. I assume you found my NASPA article on Debian on 390 from 2004? Adam From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 15 16:14:23 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 15:14:23 -0600 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <961cfcd4-ae52-bcf8-8165-9920c1404f1d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/15/2018 02:38 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I?ll install > AIX on and have an R/390. :-) I haven?t had the time yet to make any > progress on it. Props for the R/390. I've not heard mention of them in quite a while. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From leolists at seidkr.com Tue May 15 18:28:20 2018 From: leolists at seidkr.com (Philip Leonard) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 18:28:20 -0500 Subject: IBM AS/400 (iSeries) Available - Free - Kansas City Message-ID: <46C8FFDC-C777-4D17-A4DF-CDBD1DA1C597@seidkr.com> I have 4 AS/400s free to a good home. One is an S20, one is an 820, and 2 are 730. I also have several extra various cards, CRT consoles, cables, etc. for them. Please come get these as I have moved to a much smaller house and there is just no room for them. Private emails to leo42i[at]seidkr[dot]com Thanks! Philip From derschjo at gmail.com Wed May 16 01:35:55 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 May 2018 23:35:55 -0700 Subject: ISO: DECtape controller Message-ID: <0f6bf7c1-ba42-1e29-e5c8-33973a4a4637@gmail.com> I was fortunate enough to acquire a TU56 this week, along with a TD8E controller.? However, the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work with the TD8E; I know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely event that anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, or (b) a TC01, TC08 or TC11 DECtape controller in any condition that they would be interested in selling/trading for, please drop me a line. Thanks as always! Josh From pete at dunnington.plus.com Wed May 16 01:58:12 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:58:12 +0200 Subject: ISO: DECtape controller Message-ID: <6puolpkbx904ne4mnccyml77.1526453892246@email.android.com> On 16 May 2018, at 08:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: >I was fortunate enough to acquire a TU56 this week, along with a TD8E controller.? However, the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work with the TD8E; I know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely event that anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, or (b) a TC01, TC08 or TC11 DECtape controller in any condition that they would be interested in selling/trading for, please drop me a line. Thanks as always! Josh I have a similar problem. Has anyone re-engineered the G888? From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 16 02:41:36 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 02:41:36 -0500 Subject: ISO: DECtape controller In-Reply-To: <6puolpkbx904ne4mnccyml77.1526453892246@email.android.com> References: <6puolpkbx904ne4mnccyml77.1526453892246@email.android.com> Message-ID: Hi Pete, If the TU56 is ever in your way, I'm interested. Thanks, Paul On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 1:58 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 16 May 2018, at 08:37, Josh Dersch via cctalk > wrote: > > >I was fortunate enough to acquire a TU56 this week, along with a TD8E > controller. However, the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work > with the TD8E; I know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely > event that anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, or (b) a TC01, TC08 or > TC11 DECtape controller in any condition that they would be interested in > selling/trading for, please drop me a line. Thanks as always! Josh > > I have a similar problem. Has anyone re-engineered the G888? From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed May 16 05:27:36 2018 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 06:27:36 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging Message-ID: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi, I just found a Kaypro 2000 at the local recycler. No power supply. From what I can find online it has three(3) lead acid batteries. Any thoughts on getting it to fire up? I do not know the polarity of the power jack on the back. Once I get that, I was thinking of a 6 volt supply, more to just turn it on, rather than try to charge the batteries. Thanks. Joe Heck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 16 06:08:16 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 07:08:16 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISO: DECtape controller Message-ID: <20180516110816.5535018C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work with the TD8E; I > know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely event that > anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, I have this memory that someone in Scandanavia is well along with the process of creating new G888's. (If I should not have let that cat out of the bag, my apologies.) Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Wed May 16 07:50:59 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 14:50:59 +0200 Subject: ISO: DECtape controller In-Reply-To: <20180516110816.5535018C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180516110816.5535018C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2018-05-16 13:08 GMT+02:00 Noel Chiappa via cctalk : > > From: Josh Dersch > > > the TU56 lacks the G888 flip-chips necessary to work with the TD8E; I > > know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely event that > > anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, > > I have this memory that someone in Scandanavia is well along with the > process > of creating new G888's. (If I should not have let that cat out of the bag, > my apologies.) > I can jump in here since I have been a bit involved in this. Anders ( http://www.pdp-9.net/) designed a modern replacement for the G888. I tested it in my TC11 + TU56 and it mostly worked fine, except for in the far end of the tape where it performed worse than an original G888. It worked fine for booting RT-11 and XXDP but when you run the TC11 diagnostics it will give some errors while the original is error free. Anders is in the process of setting up a TU56 together with a TD8E right now to continue with this work to design a new card. I think all this is quite official since Anders has posted this thread on vcfed.org: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63589-DEC-power-supply-725-going-hot-in-TU56H /Mattis > Noel > From ben at bensinclair.com Wed May 16 08:54:41 2018 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 08:54:41 -0500 Subject: FS: PDP-11/23 + RL02 Message-ID: I haven't gotten this all together yet, but thought I'd let people here know first that I have a PDP-11/23 for sale! I'm just trying to clean things out, and have decided to focus my collection a bit. I need to go down and inventory everything, but I have a PDP-11/23 with 64KW of memory (not sure on what boards I have to give it that yet). The machine itself works, thanks to some help from people on this list. I have not gotten around to getting the RL02 working, though I have the interface and what I believe is the proper cabling. It's a pretty clean drive, and does power on just fine. I boot the 11 via a TU-58 emulator, so other than the RL02 I don't have any physical drives or tapes. Not sure on the price yet, but thought I'd see if anyone is interested. Ideally this would be for pickup in Des Moines, Iowa. Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed May 16 11:13:32 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 18:13:32 +0200 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? Message-ID: Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he has a strange thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like a drum memory, but then again not ( drum looks too small to be usefull ) The controller that goes with is? a transistor based? monster on countless small pluginboards. Pictures on? ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Unknown_CDC_Stuff Anyone can identify this ? Jos From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 11:45:00 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 12:45:00 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16369d72ed0-1db4-2f03e@webjas-vae106.srv.aolmail.net> real slow to access? but? what? i? just? saw? was a paper tape reader Ed ? ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 9:13:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he has a strange thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like a drum memory, but then again not ( drum looks too small to be usefull ) The controller that goes with is? a transistor based? monster on countless small pluginboards. Pictures on? ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Unknown_CDC_Stuff Anyone can identify this ? Jos From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 11:47:14 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 12:47:14 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16369d93b36-c8b-3d4f@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> tape reader on? front? seems reads? 5? ?7 and? 8? level paper? tape ... but.... that thing on the? ?back? ????? not? sure...? ?Ed ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 9:13:46 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he has a strange thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like a drum memory, but then again not ( drum looks too small to be usefull ) The controller that goes with is? a transistor based? monster on countless small pluginboards. Pictures on? ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Unknown_CDC_Stuff Anyone can identify this ? Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 11:48:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 09:48:04 -0700 Subject: ISO: DECtape controller In-Reply-To: <0f6bf7c1-ba42-1e29-e5c8-33973a4a4637@gmail.com> References: <0f6bf7c1-ba42-1e29-e5c8-33973a4a4637@gmail.com> Message-ID: Anders Sandal has been working on modern replacements http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63589-DEC-power-supply-725-going-hot-in-TU56H&highlight=g888 On 5/15/18 11:35 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > I was fortunate enough to acquire a TU56 this week, along with a TD8E controller.? However, the TU56 lacks the G888 > flip-chips necessary to work with the TD8E; I know these parts are in short supply, but in the unlikely event that > anyone has (a) a set of 5 G888 boards, or (b) a TC01, TC08 or TC11 DECtape controller in any condition that they would > be interested in selling/trading for, please drop me a line. > > Thanks as always! > > Josh > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 12:00:50 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 10:00:50 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/16/18 9:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Anyone can identify this ? > if you look on bitsavers under cdc/catalogs M90310500_Internal_Literature_Catalog_Jul75.pdf lists several drum storage units including the models 861, 863 and 865 the controller looks a little too early to be for the BG504A the one you're trying to identify looks to be using 1604/160 series modules 39731700A_BG504A-H_Drum_Memory_CE_Manual_Jul72.pdf for the 1700 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 12:04:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 10:04:01 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <05405f27-185e-a302-3317-59eb9b48d118@bitsavers.org> http://www.oocities.org/athens/forum/8564/books/wmthesis/thesis_01.htm references the 863 being used on the CDC 3100 On 5/16/18 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/16/18 9:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > >> Anyone can identify this ? >> > > > if you look on bitsavers under cdc/catalogs M90310500_Internal_Literature_Catalog_Jul75.pdf > > lists several drum storage units including the models 861, 863 and 865 > > the controller looks a little too early to be for the BG504A > the one you're trying to identify looks to be using 1604/160 series modules > > 39731700A_BG504A-H_Drum_Memory_CE_Manual_Jul72.pdf for the 1700 > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 12:05:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 10:05:09 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <05405f27-185e-a302-3317-59eb9b48d118@bitsavers.org> References: <05405f27-185e-a302-3317-59eb9b48d118@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <4f59756d-2392-b5a8-2340-34986866c0da@bitsavers.org> I will check this to see if there are any pictures http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102680349 On 5/16/18 10:04 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.oocities.org/athens/forum/8564/books/wmthesis/thesis_01.htm > references the 863 being used on the CDC 3100 > > On 5/16/18 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 5/16/18 9:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Anyone can identify this ? >>> >> >> >> if you look on bitsavers under cdc/catalogs M90310500_Internal_Literature_Catalog_Jul75.pdf >> >> lists several drum storage units including the models 861, 863 and 865 >> >> the controller looks a little too early to be for the BG504A >> the one you're trying to identify looks to be using 1604/160 series modules >> >> 39731700A_BG504A-H_Drum_Memory_CE_Manual_Jul72.pdf for the 1700 >> >> > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 12:13:22 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 13:13:22 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <4f59756d-2392-b5a8-2340-34986866c0da@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. ? ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 10:04:56 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I will check this to see if there are any pictures http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102680349 On 5/16/18 10:04 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > http://www.oocities.org/athens/forum/8564/books/wmthesis/thesis_01.htm > references the 863 being used on the CDC 3100 > > On 5/16/18 10:00 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 5/16/18 9:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: >> >>> Anyone can identify this ? >>> >> >> >> if you look on bitsavers under cdc/catalogs M90310500_Internal_Literature_Catalog_Jul75.pdf >> >> lists several drum storage units including the models 861, 863 and 865 >> >> the controller looks a little too early to be for the BG504A >> the one you're trying to identify looks to be using 1604/160 series modules >> >> 39731700A_BG504A-H_Drum_Memory_CE_Manual_Jul72.pdf for the 1700 >> >> > From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed May 16 12:43:22 2018 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 19:43:22 +0200 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 16.05.2018 19:13, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! > some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. > My mistake, sorry, that papertape reader was of course obvious. Removed that pic. Added 4 more, that are from some frontpanel that probably is also CDC. Quite easily the most complex I have ever seen, but somehow strange. Maybe for a tester rather than a computer. I am afraid that the local situation made better fotos impossible... Thanks for your input Jos From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 12:47:22 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 13:47:22 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1636a1044fd-1dbe-2f7cd@webjas-vad170.srv.aolmail.net> photos? are? ?fine? it? just? ?took? a? while? ?for the? ftp? to? load? at this? end ? nice? tape? reader too? with the multiple? ?code reading ability! ? Ed#? ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 10:43:30 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 16.05.2018 19:13, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! > some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. > My mistake, sorry, that papertape reader was of course obvious. Removed that pic. Added 4 more, that are from some frontpanel that probably is also CDC. Quite easily the most complex I have ever seen, but somehow strange. Maybe for a tester rather than a computer. I am afraid that the local situation made better fotos impossible... Thanks for your input Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 13:00:00 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 11:00:00 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <8052216c-c113-8a8e-dc5d-5972abec108b@bitsavers.org> On 5/16/18 10:43 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > Added 4 more, that are from some frontpanel that probably is also? CDC. > Quite easily the most complex I have ever seen, but somehow strange. > Maybe for a tester rather than a computer. Honeywell Level 66 CP http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/multics/jpg/L66CPUL.jpg From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed May 16 13:38:46 2018 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:38:46 +0200 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <8052216c-c113-8a8e-dc5d-5972abec108b@bitsavers.org> References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> <8052216c-c113-8a8e-dc5d-5972abec108b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <787a7e22-7a9a-50d8-e48b-ef283a1d2bbd@bluewin.ch> On 16.05.2018 20:00, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Honeywell Level 66 CP > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/multics/jpg/L66CPUL.jpg > That seems to be spot on... What a beast this machine was.. Jos From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 14:01:15 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 15:01:15 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <8052216c-c113-8a8e-dc5d-5972abec108b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1636a53ed1e-c90-19fd@webjas-vaa193.srv.aolmail.net> nope? ?for? a? computer ! We have? some at? SMECC also. things weigh a? ton! ? ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 10:59:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 5/16/18 10:43 AM, Jos Dreesen via cctalk wrote: > Added 4 more, that are from some frontpanel that probably is also? CDC. > Quite easily the most complex I have ever seen, but somehow strange. > Maybe for a tester rather than a computer. Honeywell Level 66 CP http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/multics/jpg/L66CPUL.jpg From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 16 19:13:41 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 17:13:41 -0700 Subject: 6130B Message-ID: just showed up https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6130B-Digital-Voltage-Source-50-Volts-1-Amp/202315039951 From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 16 19:18:05 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 17:18:05 -0700 Subject: 6130B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That seller has listed the 6130B and two 6131B a few times. Since those are in Seattle I should see if the seller allows local pickup as the listed shipping costs are higher than the item costs. Maybe grab all three and hope at least one of them can be made to work. On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > just showed up > https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6130B-Digital-Voltage-Source-50-Volts-1-Amp/202315039951 > From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed May 16 19:28:03 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 17:28:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! > some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. > ? Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 16 19:48:30 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:48:30 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <557F83AB-8445-46EC-98E7-CACBFE0E3835@comcast.net> > On May 16, 2018, at 8:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> OK I see there is a mix of photos in this directory! >> some tape reader some drum 2 separate topics. >> > Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) You mean "=C2=A0" ? Ed's mail has a Mime encoding "quoted-printable", not sure why. If your mail reader doesn't know how to handle Mime headers, you'd see those encoding markers as actual text rather than as the character they are supposed to represent. C2 A0 is UTF-8 for "non-breaking space" which explains why many others haven't noticed anything odd. paul From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 19:53:43 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:53:43 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <557F83AB-8445-46EC-98E7-CACBFE0E3835@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1636b969796-1dd4-31a88@webjas-vaa066.srv.aolmail.net> never seen it...? guess I will never? want to use alpine? Ed# ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 5:48:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On May 16, 2018, at 8:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> OK I see there is a mix of photos in this directory! >> some tape reader some drum 2 separate topics. >> > Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) You mean "=C2=A0" ? Ed's mail has a Mime encoding "quoted-printable", not sure why. If your mail reader doesn't know how to handle Mime headers, you'd see those encoding markers as actual text rather than as the character they are supposed to represent. C2 A0 is UTF-8 for "non-breaking space" which explains why many others haven't noticed anything odd. paul From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 16 19:58:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:58:55 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <557F83AB-8445-46EC-98E7-CACBFE0E3835@comcast.net> Message-ID: <1636b9b6293-c95-64f0@webjas-vae175.srv.aolmail.net> I? would? assume? there is? a? switch option in? that mail? reader? that? will enable or? disable the? reading of the? ?chars? ? ? In a message dated 5/16/2018 5:48:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On May 16, 2018, at 8:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> OK I see there is a mix of photos in this directory! >> some tape reader some drum 2 separate topics. >> > Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) You mean "=C2=A0" ? Ed's mail has a Mime encoding "quoted-printable", not sure why. If your mail reader doesn't know how to handle Mime headers, you'd see those encoding markers as actual text rather than as the character they are supposed to represent. C2 A0 is UTF-8 for "non-breaking space" which explains why many others haven't noticed anything odd. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed May 16 20:40:39 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 01:40:39 +0000 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: I'm curious about the lead acid battery. Most rechargeable things used NiCads. Do you have a picture of what is inside? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of joe heck via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:27:36 AM To: General at ezwind.net; Discussion@ Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging Hi, I just found a Kaypro 2000 at the local recycler. No power supply. From what I can find online it has three(3) lead acid batteries. Any thoughts on getting it to fire up? I do not know the polarity of the power jack on the back. Once I get that, I was thinking of a 6 volt supply, more to just turn it on, rather than try to charge the batteries. Thanks. Joe Heck From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 16 21:23:35 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 21:23:35 -0500 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <1636b969796-1dd4-31a88@webjas-vaa066.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1636b969796-1dd4-31a88@webjas-vaa066.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5AFCE7A7.8040709@pico-systems.com> On 05/16/2018 07:53 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > never seen it... guess I will never want to use alpine? > Ed# > > Yup, I don't see anything odd, I use Thunderbird as my email client. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 16 21:25:56 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 21:25:56 -0500 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5AFCE834.1040404@pico-systems.com> On 05/16/2018 11:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he > has a strange thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like > a drum memory, but then again not ( drum looks too small > to be usefull ) > > The controller that goes with is a transistor based > monster on countless small pluginboards. > > Pictures on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Unknown_CDC_Stuff > > Yes, it is a drum, for sure. Seems to have a LOT of heads. The controller may be a regular disk controller, or can be used with both. I noticed an "on cylinder" light on the panel. But, it should be pretty easy to repurpose a disk controller to handle a head-per-track drum. Jon From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Wed May 16 22:15:51 2018 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 23:15:51 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: References: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: <5AFCF3E7.4020700@splab.cas.neu.edu> Hi Dwight, The Selectric Typewriter Museum has a blurb on the 2000 and calls out a 3 cell lead acid battery pack. A Youtube video that dismantles a 2000 that the magic smoke came out of also calls out a lead acid battery. The age is around 1985, so I'm not sure NiCd were readily available then. Just too long ago for me to remember. If you check Youtube, and look for RIP Kaypro, you will see a machine being taken apart. Joe On 5/16/2018 9:40 PM, dwight wrote: > I'm curious about the lead acid battery. Most rechargeable things used > NiCads. Do you have a picture of what is inside? > > Dwight > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of joe heck via > cctalk > *Sent:* Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:27:36 AM > *To:* General at ezwind.net; Discussion@ > *Subject:* Kaypro 2000 charging > Hi, > I just found a Kaypro 2000 at the local recycler. No power supply. > From what I can find online it has three(3) lead acid batteries. Any > thoughts on getting it to fire up? I do not know the polarity of the > power jack on the back. Once I get that, I was thinking of a 6 volt > supply, more to just turn it on, rather than try to charge the > batteries. Thanks. Joe Heck From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed May 16 22:40:04 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:40:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: <5AFCF3E7.4020700@splab.cas.neu.edu> References: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> <5AFCF3E7.4020700@splab.cas.neu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2018, joe heck via cctalk wrote: > The Selectric Typewriter Museum has a blurb on the 2000 and calls out a 3 > cell lead acid battery pack. A Youtube video that dismantles a 2000 that the > magic smoke came out of also calls out a lead acid battery. The age is around > 1985, so I'm not sure NiCd were readily available then. Just too long ago > for me to remember. If you check Youtube, and look for RIP Kaypro, you will > see a machine being taken apart. NiCd batteries were readily available in 1985. They were invented around 1900, and were available in USA since about 1946? HOWEVER, admittedly, their capacity was somewhat inadequate. Also, their voltage was around 1.25V, when zinc-Carbon and Alkaline batteries were 1.5V. Therefore, they were a somewhat unacceptable replacement for disposable batteries. Nevertheless, for situations that required rechargeables, where lead-acid was too heavy, they were available, and widely used. Over half a century ago, I used electronic flash guns that used NiCd's. A 1985 NiCd battery pack would not have had a long life even in a Kaypro 2000, and would end up being used mostly for moving it from one mains outlet to another. I remember an interview with Lee Felsenstein, in which he was asked how much a battery power unit for the upcoming Osborne would weigh. He reponded that the external DC connection was currently for use with a car. (Lee was driving a Honda Accord). Perhaps you are thinking of NiMH, which seem to have been around less than 30 years. THOSE were/are way better than NiCd in capacity. Much more recently, of course, the trend has been to Lithium batteries. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Thu May 17 00:00:00 2018 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 07:00:00 +0200 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?HP_Series_9000_early_1980=e2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= Message-ID: <3485afff-afb4-46c3-7c42-b56ebf8874d3@ljw.me.uk> The following was sent to the list as an attachment so I am forwarding it. Please don't reply to me but rather to Mr Parker. I have removed his full address and phone number. To:? classiccmp.org Re: HP Series 9000 early 1980?s computer hardware Hi, I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. That gear includes several types of hard drives and tape drives, standalone monitors and even an impact 132 character line printer. I also have a CPU, that I think is a 9000/550. Not a work station but a more powerful CPU using the same technology as the 9000/520. Plus cables and extra circuit boards used in that series equipment. All of the stuff worked the last time it was fired up. I also have the disks and tapes for the software shipped with that equipment. I am getting along in years and rather leaving it to be trashed in the future I am looking for a new home for the stuff. So can you suggest someone who might be interested in it? Sincerely, Charles D. Parker Howell, MI 48844 Chas.parker at comcast.net -- Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu May 17 00:17:42 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 05:17:42 +0000 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: References: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> <5AFCF3E7.4020700@splab.cas.neu.edu>, Message-ID: I've used NiCads in RC radios, a long as they had transistor RC radios. I just thought it was a little unusual to see lead acid cells for a portable. I guess they were more concerned about run time than weight. ________________________________ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 17 01:49:47 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 00:49:47 -0600 Subject: 6130B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539FDDB0-2DC8-48BE-88A4-EF73E310808B@gmail.com> That's the guy I got my 6130B from. Marc > On May 16, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > That seller has listed the 6130B and two 6131B a few times. Since > those are in Seattle I should see if the seller allows local pickup as > the listed shipping costs are higher than the item costs. Maybe grab > all three and hope at least one of them can be made to work. > > On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> just showed up >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6130B-Digital-Voltage-Source-50-Volts-1-Amp/202315039951 >> From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 17 02:53:08 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 09:53:08 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2018, geneb wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! >> some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. >> ? > Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk > characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it > makes your text nearly unreadable. :) I use Alpine, too, but I only see two spaces after each word, but yes, Ed has the talent to write illegible postings ;-) Christian From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Thu May 17 02:56:21 2018 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 09:56:21 +0200 Subject: Datasheet for Signetics spc16/10 ( Single chip Philips P800 processor ) ? Message-ID: <677d0509-7457-28a6-07a9-9c1fc40da370@greenmail.ch> Subject says it all : anyone has datasheets for this obscure single chip Philips P800-type microprocessor ? Cant find anything but a student's report from 1981, and it is not listed in the Signetics databooks of the time ( +/- 1980) ( this is not related to the General Automation SPC16 family) Jos From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu May 17 03:35:24 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 10:35:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Datasheet for Signetics spc16/10 ( Single chip Philips P800 processor ) ? In-Reply-To: <677d0509-7457-28a6-07a9-9c1fc40da370@greenmail.ch> References: <677d0509-7457-28a6-07a9-9c1fc40da370@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2018, jos wrote: > ( this is not related to the General Automation SPC16 family) ... wherefore I still seek for print sets, software and so on ... Christian From trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu Thu May 17 06:49:25 2018 From: trash3 at splab.cas.neu.edu (joe heck) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 07:49:25 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: References: <5AFC0798.8030504@splab.cas.neu.edu> <5AFCF3E7.4020700@splab.cas.neu.edu>, Message-ID: <5AFD6C45.50707@splab.cas.neu.edu> The manual and the other documentation I've found online boasts a 4 hour useful runtime (with light to moderate floppy use) with a 24 hour charge. And yes, the unit is heavy, at about 13 pounds. Joe On 5/17/2018 1:17 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I've used NiCads in RC radios, a long as they had transistor RC radios. > > I just thought it was a little unusual to see lead acid cells for a portable. I guess they were more concerned about run time than weight. > > > ________________________________ > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu May 17 08:36:00 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 14:36:00 +0100 Subject: Datasheet for Signetics spc16/10 ( Single chip Philips P800 processor ) ? In-Reply-To: <677d0509-7457-28a6-07a9-9c1fc40da370@greenmail.ch> References: <677d0509-7457-28a6-07a9-9c1fc40da370@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 8:56 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Subject says it all : > > anyone has datasheets for this obscure single chip Philips P800-type > microprocessor ? Sorry :-( The only single-chip P800 I have any information on is numbered 'XSC2752', and I don't have a data sheet for that. I do have the manual for the P870 board, which is a single-board computer using that CPU. Said manual is quite a thick document, and includes the instruction set, schematics, etc. I could be convinced to scan it if you think it's going to be any use, but it will take some time. -tony From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 17 09:06:45 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 07:06:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <557F83AB-8445-46EC-98E7-CACBFE0E3835@comcast.net> References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> <557F83AB-8445-46EC-98E7-CACBFE0E3835@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 May 2018, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On May 16, 2018, at 8:28 PM, geneb via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>> OK I see there is a mix of photos in this directory! >>> some tape reader some drum 2 separate topics. >>> >> Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) > > You mean "=C2=A0" ? Ed's mail has a Mime encoding "quoted-printable", > not sure why. If your mail reader doesn't know how to handle Mime > headers, you'd see those encoding markers as actual text rather than as > the character they are supposed to represent. C2 A0 is UTF-8 for > "non-breaking space" which explains why many others haven't noticed > anything odd. There's no rational reason to MIME encode the *body* of an email, unless of course they're using some badly written horror show that thinks HTML and embedded graphics are perfectly acceptable. (Those people tend to top-post as well, so they're basically irredeemable at that point. :) ) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 17 09:11:41 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 07:11:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2018, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 16 May 2018, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>> OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! >>> some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. >>> ? >> Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk >> characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it >> makes your text nearly unreadable. :) > > I use Alpine, too, but I only see two spaces after each word, but yes, > Ed has the talent to write illegible postings ;-) Understatement of the century. :) It varies. Sometimes it's interspersed with garbage, sometimes it's multiple spaces. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu May 17 09:16:58 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 09:16:58 -0500 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <16369f11f1f-c8b-3fec@webjas-vab210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 9:11 AM, geneb via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 17 May 2018, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, 16 May 2018, geneb wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> OK I see there is a mix of photos in this directory! >>>> some tape reader some drum 2 separate topics. >>>> >>>> >>> Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two >>> junk characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and >>> it makes your text nearly unreadable. :) >>> >> >> I use Alpine, too, but I only see two spaces after each word, but yes, Ed >> has the talent to write illegible postings ;-) >> > > Understatement of the century. :) It varies. Sometimes it's interspersed > with garbage, sometimes it's multiple spaces. Sometimes it's ALL CAPS. Maybe Ed has a Model 26 Teletype hooked up in lieu of his computer's keyboard? Kyle From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 17 10:35:24 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 08:35:24 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=e2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: <3485afff-afb4-46c3-7c42-b56ebf8874d3@ljw.me.uk> References: <3485afff-afb4-46c3-7c42-b56ebf8874d3@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: <99006c4d-676c-fef8-b20e-5c7ca02980b7@bitsavers.org> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu May 17 10:38:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 08:38:53 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <864d1f94-7907-8984-86c9-339857c43af1@bitsavers.org> On 5/16/18 9:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he has a strange thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like a drum > memory, but then again not ( drum looks too small to be usefull ) > > The controller that goes with is? a transistor based? monster on countless small pluginboards. > If you get back over there, try to find CDC ID tags on the drum and controller. There would normally be a model number badge somewhere on the outside. Being that there was a 350 paper tape reader, I'm guessing its for one of their smaller systems, maybe an early model 1700 From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Thu May 17 12:24:34 2018 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 17:24:34 +0000 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? Message-ID: > On Wed, 16 May 2018, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>> OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! >>> some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. >>> ? >> Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk >> characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it >> makes your text nearly unreadable. :) I get the digest and see question mark characters after most words. Perhaps they will show in the above quoted message, which I copied out of the digest. Bob From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 13:09:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 14:09:13 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1636f4aa2bd-17a4-1383c@webjas-vae049.srv.aolmail.net> yep we see them? but? ?we? did not? type them intentionally?? may way to adjust? your? mail reader reader as? they do not? show up in? ?any of the? mail readers? we have access to. Ed#? ? In a message dated 5/17/2018 10:24:41 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > On Wed, 16 May 2018, geneb wrote: >> On Wed, 16 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> >>> OK? I? see there is a? mix? of? photos in this? directory! >>> some? tape? reader? some? drum? 2? separate? topics. >>> ? >> Ed, I don't know if you (or anyone else) can see this, but there's two junk >> characters at the end of every word you write. I see it in Alpine and it >> makes your text nearly unreadable. :) I get the digest and see question mark characters after most words. Perhaps they will show in the above quoted message, which I copied out of the digest. Bob From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 17 13:33:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 11:33:03 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e04592d-456b-9524-646c-584a97e2f4ef@sydex.com> On 05/16/2018 09:13 AM, jos via cctalk wrote: > Visited an older collector recently, and in his shed he has a strange > thing, labeled CDC, that somehow looks like a drum memory, but then > again not ( drum looks too small to be usefull ) > > The controller that goes with is? a transistor based? monster on > countless small pluginboards. > > Pictures on? ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/Unknown_CDC_Stuff Finally got enough patience to let the images load. Pulling a guess out of the thin air or some other place, my guess would be a CDC Digigraphics controller, which used drums for display refresh. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 17 13:47:46 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 11:47:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <1636f4aa2bd-17a4-1383c@webjas-vae049.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1636f4aa2bd-17a4-1383c@webjas-vae049.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > yep we see them?? but?? ??we?? did not?? type them intentionally???? https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/13/we/ > may way to adjust?? your?? mail reader reader as?? they do not?? show up in?? ??any of the?? mail readers?? we have access to. > Ed#?? If your email program is crapping, it is not the responsibility of everybody else to "adjust" their mail readers to filter out the crap. This group has been remarkably tolerant of NON-ASCII content. Many already have configurations that do such filtering, and are not seeing all of the mess. Others just assume that your mail client, or your keyboard is BROKEN. Would cleaning the contacts of your space bar reduce the bounce and noise it produces? Perhaps also repair the rest of the punctuation keys, if the keyboard has any, and at least one of the shift keys. That is assuming that it is a keyboard, and not a telegraph key, nor OCR of crayon drawings. OTOH, if the keyboard in question consists of a xerox of a Timex/Sinclair, then you are to be commended for getting output that is so close to being text. "My handwriting is so bad that even my typing is illegible." From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 14:05:57 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 15:05:57 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1636f7e9229-17a0-26b89@webjas-vae030.srv.aolmail.net> wonder how many are running that version of alpine that exists errors? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Thursday, May 17, 2018 Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > yep we see them? but? ?we? did not? type them intentionally?? https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/13/we/ > may way to adjust? your? mail reader reader as? they do not? show up in? ?any of the? mail readers? we have access to. > Ed#? If your email program is crapping, it is not the responsibility of everybody else to "adjust" their mail readers to filter out the crap. This group has been remarkably tolerant of NON-ASCII content. Many already have configurations that do such filtering, and are not seeing all of the mess. Others just assume that your mail client, or your keyboard is BROKEN. Would cleaning the contacts of your space bar reduce the bounce and noise it produces? Perhaps also repair the rest of the punctuation keys, if the keyboard has any, and at least one of the shift keys. That is assuming that it is a keyboard, and not a telegraph key, nor OCR of crayon drawings. OTOH, if the keyboard in question consists of a xerox of a Timex/Sinclair, then you are to be commended for getting output that is so close to being text. "My handwriting is so bad that even my typing is illegible." From geneb at deltasoft.com Thu May 17 14:18:31 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 12:18:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <1636f7e9229-17a0-26b89@webjas-vae030.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1636f7e9229-17a0-26b89@webjas-vae030.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > wonder how many are running that version of alpine that exists errors? > The problem isn't on the destination end, it's on the origin. Asking me to adjust my email client to fix your problem is like a noisy neighbor demanding I wear earplugs. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu May 17 14:19:21 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 12:19:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <1636f7e9229-17a0-26b89@webjas-vae030.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1636f7e9229-17a0-26b89@webjas-vae030.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > wonder how many are running that version of alpine that exists errors? > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Are you hypothesizing that it is a specific version of Alpine that creates the extraneous characters, and produces the errors of captialization, punctuation, and inconsistent spacing? I am using PINE, and only get the errors of captialization, punctuation, and inconsistent spacing. OTOH, there are many of us with worse mispelings. From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 14:38:33 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 15:38:33 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1636f9c6f94-c8a-7b30@webjas-vad141.srv.aolmail.net> OK I do know the? Pine? ?I used it at the stat of the internet? with a text browser? for webpages also. This back when I ran them on a slow? PC that was unable to run mosaic etc etc etc.? ? Wow? ?flashback...? and not necessarily a? pleasant one! ( but those software items would run on darn near anything...? ?Ed# ? In a message dated 5/17/2018 12:19:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > wonder how many are running that version of alpine that exists errors? > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail Are you hypothesizing that it is a specific version of Alpine that creates the extraneous characters, and produces the errors of captialization, punctuation, and inconsistent spacing? I am using PINE, and only get the errors of captialization, punctuation, and inconsistent spacing. OTOH, there are many of us with worse mispelings. From fmc at reanimators.org Thu May 17 14:51:13 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 12:51:13 -0700 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <1636f4aa2bd-17a4-1383c@webjas-vae049.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On May 17, 2018, at 11:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> yep we see them but we did not type them intentionally > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/13/we/ > >> may way to adjust your mail reader reader as they do not show up in any of the mail readers we have access to. >> Ed# > > If your email program is crapping, it is not the responsibility of everybody else to "adjust" their mail readers to filter out the crap. > This group has been remarkably tolerant of NON-ASCII content. > > Many already have configurations that do such filtering, and are not seeing all of the mess. > Others just assume that your mail client, or your keyboard is BROKEN. > Would cleaning the contacts of your space bar reduce the bounce and noise it produces? > Perhaps also repair the rest of the punctuation keys, if the keyboard has any, and at least one of the shift keys. > > That is assuming that it is a keyboard, and not a telegraph key, nor OCR of crayon drawings. My guess is (and has been for a while) "dictated to Cortana". And his Cortana is sometimes hard of hearing because the mic got buried under something. We live in interesting times in which the future is here but not evenly distributed. For many modern e-mail user programs, the default character set for plain text is no longer US-ASCII or some local national variation but Unicode. And the e-mail composer works hard to notice that its user has typed a quotation mark so it can promote it into some other Unicode quotation mark (e.g. " gets turned into LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK). It then gets sent as text/plain, but with UTF-8 encoding; and some but not all combinations of mail readers and display devices can show Unicode characters in UTF-8 encoding. So if you insist on reading your e-mail with a VT100 or even an HP 700/92, some e-mail is looking funny and more will; but some of the newer terminal emulators (e.g. Terminal.app on macOS) are capable of displaying Unicode from a received UTF-8 stream, and that is why reports of success with Alpine vary: people running it from a terminal that understands UTF-8 see the non-breaking space characters as blanks, while those who run it from a terminal that understands only US-ASCII see them as something else. Right at the moment I am using Apple Mail and it is one of those things that does character promotion, and sometimes I have uses for that. I think I may have fixed this message, but that fixing is a conscious effort and takes some work to retype those quotation marks and move away from them with some care, and then check again before you send because sometimes it re-scans and re-promotes. -Frank McConnell From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 14:56:10 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 15:56:10 -0400 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1636fac9127-19aa-35c5f@webjas-vac025.srv.aolmail.net> there seems to be a difference sometimes in quote in ms word and regular ascii when posting some things some places Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Thursday, May 17, 2018 Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: On May 17, 2018, at 11:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> yep we see them but we did not type them intentionally > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/13/we/ > >> may way to adjust your mail reader reader as they do not show up in any of the mail readers we have access to. >> Ed# > > If your email program is crapping, it is not the responsibility of everybody else to "adjust" their mail readers to filter out the crap. > This group has been remarkably tolerant of NON-ASCII content. > > Many already have configurations that do such filtering, and are not seeing all of the mess. > Others just assume that your mail client, or your keyboard is BROKEN. > Would cleaning the contacts of your space bar reduce the bounce and noise it produces? > Perhaps also repair the rest of the punctuation keys, if the keyboard has any, and at least one of the shift keys. > > That is assuming that it is a keyboard, and not a telegraph key, nor OCR of crayon drawings. My guess is (and has been for a while) "dictated to Cortana". And his Cortana is sometimes hard of hearing because the mic got buried under something. We live in interesting times in which the future is here but not evenly distributed. For many modern e-mail user programs, the default character set for plain text is no longer US-ASCII or some local national variation but Unicode. And the e-mail composer works hard to notice that its user has typed a quotation mark so it can promote it into some other Unicode quotation mark (e.g. " gets turned into LEFT DOUBLE QUOTATION MARK). It then gets sent as text/plain, but with UTF-8 encoding; and some but not all combinations of mail readers and display devices can show Unicode characters in UTF-8 encoding. So if you insist on reading your e-mail with a VT100 or even an HP 700/92, some e-mail is looking funny and more will; but some of the newer terminal emulators (e.g. Terminal.app on macOS) are capable of displaying Unicode from a received UTF-8 stream, and that is why reports of success with Alpine vary: people running it from a terminal that understands UTF-8 see the non-breaking space characters as blanks, while those who run it from a terminal that understands only US-ASCII see them as something else. Right at the moment I am using Apple Mail and it is one of those things that does character promotion, and sometimes I have uses for that. I think I may have fixed this message, but that fixing is a conscious effort and takes some work to retype those quotation marks and move away from them with some care, and then check again before you send because sometimes it re-scans and re-promotes. -Frank McConnell From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu May 17 15:18:43 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 21:18:43 +0100 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: <1636fac9127-19aa-35c5f@webjas-vac025.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1636fac9127-19aa-35c5f@webjas-vac025.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <049901d3ee1c$4126c070$c3744150$@gmail.com> 2018, at 11:47, Fred Cisin wrote: > > > > On Thu, 17 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> yep we see them but we did not type them intentionally > > > > https://quoteinvestigator.com/2015/06/13/we/ > > > >> may way to adjust your mail reader reader as they do not show up in any > of the mail readers we have access to. Possibly not but as a UK citizen I find that if I use ? or ? then these can't be represented as "ASCII" (whatever that is) http://www.aivosto.com/vbtips/charsets-7bit.html Dave From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Thu May 17 15:29:03 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 06:29:03 +1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardw?= =?utf-8?Q?are?= In-Reply-To: <99006c4d-676c-fef8-b20e-5c7ca02980b7@bitsavers.org> References: <3485afff-afb4-46c3-7c42-b56ebf8874d3@ljw.me.uk> <99006c4d-676c-fef8-b20e-5c7ca02980b7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition meant we weren?t able to take them in. Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units! David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. > >> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. > > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu May 17 15:38:00 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 13:38:00 -0700 Subject: 6130B In-Reply-To: <539FDDB0-2DC8-48BE-88A4-EF73E310808B@gmail.com> References: <539FDDB0-2DC8-48BE-88A4-EF73E310808B@gmail.com> Message-ID: A different lifetime I used to use 6130s and it's cousins. We had them connected to pdp-11s. We actually built our own version of an io board that looked like 4 DR11s I no longer have the board that I do have a couple the supplies that if you're in Portland Oregon let me know and I'll sell them at a very reasonable price. I'll let On Wed, May 16, 2018, 11:49 PM Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > That's the guy I got my 6130B from. > Marc > > > On May 16, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > That seller has listed the 6130B and two 6131B a few times. Since > > those are in Seattle I should see if the seller allows local pickup as > > the listed shipping costs are higher than the item costs. Maybe grab > > all three and hope at least one of them can be made to work. > > > > On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > > wrote: > >> just showed up > >> > https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6130B-Digital-Voltage-Source-50-Volts-1-Amp/202315039951 > >> > > From pete at petelancashire.com Thu May 17 15:41:03 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 13:41:03 -0700 Subject: 6130B In-Reply-To: References: <539FDDB0-2DC8-48BE-88A4-EF73E310808B@gmail.com> Message-ID: I just remembered I designed and prototype a replacement D/A board but it never got finished the client changed his mind On Thu, May 17, 2018, 1:38 PM Pete Lancashire wrote: > A different lifetime I used to use 6130s and it's cousins. We had them > connected to pdp-11s. We actually built our own version of an io board that > looked like 4 DR11s > > I no longer have the board that I do have a couple the supplies that if > you're in Portland Oregon let me know and I'll sell them at a very > reasonable price. I'll let > > On Wed, May 16, 2018, 11:49 PM Curious Marc via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> That's the guy I got my 6130B from. >> Marc >> >> > On May 16, 2018, at 6:18 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > That seller has listed the 6130B and two 6131B a few times. Since >> > those are in Seattle I should see if the seller allows local pickup as >> > the listed shipping costs are higher than the item costs. Maybe grab >> > all three and hope at least one of them can be made to work. >> > >> > On Wed, May 16, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> just showed up >> >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/HP-6130B-Digital-Voltage-Source-50-Volts-1-Amp/202315039951 >> >> >> >> From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 15:48:34 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 16:48:34 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> References: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in AZ... HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time with the excellent documents there. ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk wrote: I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition meant we weren?t able to take them in. Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units! David Collins Sent from my iPad > On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. > >> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. > > From fmc at reanimators.org Thu May 17 17:15:36 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 15:15:36 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hard?= =?utf-8?Q?ware?= In-Reply-To: <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> References: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> The 9000 Series 500 is very different from later 9000s. I don?t think there more than one speed of CPU, although there was an early and later CPU with the later CPU having a floating-point unit onboard. What you get out of a 9000 Series 550 over a Series 520 (aka 9020) is mostly more I/O slots, as I recall the 9020 had a short I/O cage. But I think the processor cage is the same size and can host about the same sets of cards. The CPU is a 32-bit stack machine, very like a wide classic-3000, and there can be up to three CPUs in a system. There is an IOP that front-ends a CIO-type I/O bus (same bus and some of the same peripheral cards used in early PA-RISC systems) and I think you can have two IOPs in a system. HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the Unix kernel is a complete rewrite. It is hosted on top of HP?s ?SUN OS? operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP?s MODCAL language. The filesystem is HP?s Structured Directory Format. The userland is largely made up of ports from AT&T System III (and later System V) and 4BSD. So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions. One is that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF?s directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory. Yes, ls -a shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix! -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong?s TCP/IP on these) On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote: > > actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in AZ... > HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time with the excellent documents there. > > ed# > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk wrote: > I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition meant we weren?t able to take them in. > > Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units! > > David Collins > > Sent from my iPad > >> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. >> >>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. >> >> From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 17 17:26:52 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 16:26:52 -0600 Subject: Unknown CDC unit , looks like a drum memory ? In-Reply-To: References: <1636f4aa2bd-17a4-1383c@webjas-vae049.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 12:47 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If your email program is crapping, it is not the responsibility of > everybody else to "adjust" their mail readers to filter out the crap. > This group has been remarkably tolerant of NON-ASCII content. > I generally agree, but at least "quoted-printable" is a _standard_ encoding, and not some totally random brokenness. From imp at bsdimp.com Thu May 17 17:48:41 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 16:48:41 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> References: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that > the Unix kernel is a complete rewrite. It is hosted on top of HP?s ?SUN > OS? operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the > 9020, also hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP?s MODCAL language. The > filesystem is HP?s Structured Directory Format. The userland is largely > made up of ports from AT&T System III (and later System V) and 4BSD. > HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite recall, not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV, though through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix, they did it under their System III license, at least in the early days... Don't know if that ever changed to a System V license or not since they didn't have a System V kernel... > So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions. One > is that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no > entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF?s > directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory. Yes, ls -a > shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix! > I think they must have fixed this, or it wasn't true for readdir(). I ported the OI toolkit to HP-UX once upon a time and the file dialog boxes just worked, and we had . and .. in there... > -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong?s TCP/IP on these) Danger! The Sea Monster Comes! Warner > On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote: > > > > actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are > in AZ... > > HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna > time with the excellent documents there. > > > > ed# > > > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > > > On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as > much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to > Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than > acquisition meant we weren?t able to take them in. > > > > Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units! > > > > David Collins > > > > Sent from my iPad > > > >> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. > >> > >>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear > associated with that series. > >> > >> > > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu May 17 18:56:53 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 19:56:53 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1637088f382-179a-15294@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> Is HP UX that it? runs similar? to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ? ? In a message dated 5/17/2018 3:48:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite recall, not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV, though through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix, they did it under their System III license, at least in the early days... Don't know if that ever changed to a System V license or not since they didn't have a System V kernel... From bear at typewritten.org Thu May 17 22:31:31 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Thu, 17 May 2018 20:31:31 -0700 Subject: =?windows-1252?Q?Re=3A_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=92s_computer_ha?= =?windows-1252?Q?rdware?= In-Reply-To: <99006c4d-676c-fef8-b20e-5c7ca02980b7@bitsavers.org> References: <3485afff-afb4-46c3-7c42-b56ebf8874d3@ljw.me.uk> <99006c4d-676c-fef8-b20e-5c7ca02980b7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <26385E0D-C716-4575-B15E-529955782EC3@typewritten.org> On May 17, 2018, at 8:35 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. I contacted him yesterday evening about it, but haven't had a reply yet. ok bear. -- until further notice From spacewar at gmail.com Fri May 18 09:34:45 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 08:34:45 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re=3A_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: <1637088f382-179a-15294@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637088f382-179a-15294@webjas-vae203.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, May 17, 2018, 17:57 Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > Is HP UX that it runs similar to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ? > No, the fake-Unix-on-HP-Sun-OS HP-UX was only on the 9000/500 series. All the other HP-UX versions are "normal". From couryhouse at aol.com Fri May 18 10:10:07 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 11:10:07 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16373cd0914-1dd8-395a6@webjas-vad239.srv.aolmail.net> Thanks? for the? update. I do not have? much knowledge on the HP-UX? as? ?I spent user time? on the? HP-3000? MPE? side . (well and? before that? HP2000 and a little HP-1000 and PDP-8)? ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 5/18/2018 7:34:58 AM US Mountain Standard Time, spacewar at gmail.com writes: ? On Thu, May 17, 2018, 17:57 Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: Is HP UX that it? runs similar? to what is on the HP INTEGRAL ? ? No, the fake-Unix-on-HP-Sun-OS HP-UX was only on the 9000/500 series. All the other HP-UX versions are "normal". ? ? From pete at petelancashire.com Fri May 18 10:14:44 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 08:14:44 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The serial numbers p720 8202-E4B 106AD5P 8202-E4B 106AD6P HMC 7042-CR4 10-72F0B On Sat, May 12, 2018, 5:28 AM Pete Lancashire wrote: > This time not so 'classic' > > My last job was maintaining IBM p7's and eventually p8's. > > One thing I started was putting together a home setup. But like all the > other > projects the gear has become redundant to me. > > The 'stack' consists of 2 each IBM p720's, a CR6 HMC, and a KVM drawer. > > The p720 do NOT have any hard drives or carriers, but both are available > via > Ebay. The carrier was used in more than one model, and in the past I've > bought carriers with small disks for < $20 each, then found larger disks of > various brands. > > And the rails are missing from the p720's. > > Google "ibm p720" > > I can't remember how much RAM, number of CPUs etc but one p720 was > 'loaded'. > > If interested let me know and > > If anyone knows a good AIX list please let me know > > I'll try to get a few photo's this weekend. > > The 'stack' is located in Portland, Oregon. > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > > -pete > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri May 18 10:58:27 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 15:58:27 +0000 Subject: Looking for info on "Soft Tape Forth" for the Apple IIe Message-ID: I've gotten a copy of this Forth from someplace. I was going to play with it some but it has so many non-standard words, I ws hoping someone might have glossary of words for this Forth. Also, it came with a number of game programs that used some graphics output. I was wondering which graphics board it was intended to work with. Dwight From sales at elecplus.com Fri May 18 12:28:49 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 12:28:49 -0500 Subject: Rodents! Message-ID: <022e01d3eecd$af5a1860$0e0e4920$@com> We have spent many hours the past few days testing and cleaning mice and trackballs. Right now there are 45 different types listed. https://www.elecshopper.com/input-devices/mice-and-trackballs.html ADB, serial, and USB to choose from. More to come! Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri May 18 12:39:36 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 10:39:36 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?HP_9000_model_300_=28was:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware=29?= In-Reply-To: <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> References: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> Message-ID: Is there interest here in the HP 9000 Series 300? I know nothing about them, but there is one in the AS-IS section at the local computer recycler (RePC in Seattle) for $40. alan > On May 17, 2018, at 3:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > The 9000 Series 500 is very different from later 9000s. > > I don?t think there more than one speed of CPU, although there was an early and later CPU with the later CPU having a floating-point unit onboard. What you get out of a 9000 Series 550 over a Series 520 (aka 9020) is mostly more I/O slots, as I recall the 9020 had a short I/O cage. But I think the processor cage is the same size and can host about the same sets of cards. > > The CPU is a 32-bit stack machine, very like a wide classic-3000, and there can be up to three CPUs in a system. There is an IOP that front-ends a CIO-type I/O bus (same bus and some of the same peripheral cards used in early PA-RISC systems) and I think you can have two IOPs in a system. > > HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the Unix kernel is a complete rewrite. It is hosted on top of HP?s ?SUN OS? operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP?s MODCAL language. The filesystem is HP?s Structured Directory Format. The userland is largely made up of ports from AT&T System III (and later System V) and 4BSD. > > So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions. One is that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF?s directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory. Yes, ls -a shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix! > > -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong?s TCP/IP on these) > >> On May 17, 2018, at 13:48, Ed Sharpe wrote: >> >> actually we are lacking 9000 gear for smecc. where is it located? we are in AZ... >> HP Computer Museum overseas is awesome... The site has saved us mauna time with the excellent documents there. >> >> ed# >> >> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail >> >> On Thursday, May 17, 2018 David Collins via cctalk wrote: >> I agree with Al. Chas approached the HP Computer Museum on this and as much as they would be great to add to the collection, the shipping costs to Australia and the fact that the museum is more in a consolidation mode than acquisition meant we weren?t able to take them in. >> >> Hopefully someone close by to him would like to have these units! >> >> David Collins >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >>> On 18 May 2018, at 1:35 am, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> Series 500 machines are quite rare. Someone should save these. >>> >>>> On 5/16/18 10:00 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> I own several HP 9020 work stations along with peripheral gear associated with that series. >>> >>> > From couryhouse at aol.com Fri May 18 12:49:09 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 13:49:09 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_HP_9000_model_300_(was:_HP_Series?= =?UTF-8?Q?_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware)?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163745ea562-179f-37ed5@webjas-vac037.srv.aolmail.net> What is? all with the basic? box?? thanks ed# ? In a message dated 5/18/2018 10:39:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? HP 9000 Series 300 From aperry at snowmoose.com Fri May 18 13:00:23 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 11:00:23 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_HP_9000_series_300_=28was:_HP_Series_9000_early_1980?= =?utf-8?Q?=E2=80=99s_computer_hardware=29?= In-Reply-To: <163745ea562-179f-37ed5@webjas-vac037.srv.aolmail.net> References: <163745ea562-179f-37ed5@webjas-vac037.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <0FD6BFF2-FFD6-4429-979A-6F5F7D980512@snowmoose.com> I know so little about them that I called it a model 300 :) On the back, the bottom, wider slot was open, the two slots above occupied, and the upper two had blanking plates. The lower of the occupied slots had lots of connectors, but I don?t recall what. The other occupied slot had just a HP-IB connector. alan > On May 18, 2018, at 10:49 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > What is all with the basic box? thanks ed# > > In a message dated 5/18/2018 10:39:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > HP 9000 Series 300 From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 18 14:13:07 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 12:13:07 -0700 Subject: HP 9000 series 300 In-Reply-To: <0FD6BFF2-FFD6-4429-979A-6F5F7D980512@snowmoose.com> References: <163745ea562-179f-37ed5@webjas-vac037.srv.aolmail.net> <0FD6BFF2-FFD6-4429-979A-6F5F7D980512@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <469c62df-9b24-74f6-d6d8-a88b6c145dad@bitsavers.org> On 5/18/18 11:00 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > On the back, the bottom, wider slot was open, the two slots above occupied, and the upper two had blanking plates. the empty slot is where the CPU goes. the upper two are 'DIO' slots more than you ever wanted to know is at http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/9000_300 the most common 300 series that show up are the 310/320 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 18 15:46:15 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 21:46:15 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > That?s, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers > I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every > thing must be on the MCA bus. > > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec > card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, > no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a > >4GB drive option. > > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find > the drive and install the proper drivers. > > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that > puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives > depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card > in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD > ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. Dave > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I > went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I > kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. > > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I?ll install AIX on and > have an R/390. ;-) I haven?t had the time yet to make any progress on it. > > But it?s good to know that you?ve managed to do this if I decide to go back > and attempt the PC route again. > > TTFN - Guy From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri May 18 15:48:44 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 20:48:44 +0000 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> , <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> Message-ID: I gotta ask, what's the deal with the dangling card? That cracked me up! Thanks for posting some pics! ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46 PM To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > -----Original Message----- > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 > To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > wrote: > > > > > > That?s, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers > I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every > thing must be on the MCA bus. > > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec > card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, > no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a > >4GB drive option. > > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find > the drive and install the proper drivers. > > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that > puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives > depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card > in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD > ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 [https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/981/27325931687_813922732f_h.jpg] P390 flic.kr Explore this photo album by Dave G4UGM on Flickr! next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. Dave > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I > went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I > kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. > > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I?ll install AIX on and > have an R/390. ;-) I haven?t had the time yet to make any progress on it. > > But it?s good to know that you?ve managed to do this if I decide to go back > and attempt the PC route again. > > TTFN - Guy From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:22:25 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 16:22:25 -0500 Subject: Tennecomp Message-ID: Al uploaded some of my Tennecomp docs onto Bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tennecomp/ He also already had some brochures, which are very interesting as well. Anyone else have some Tennecomp stuff? I've got more stuff to scan, including a bunch of schematics (size C paper, for the most part), as well as a few other manuals I believe. I'd be curious to hear any of their history, especially because of their location in Oak Ridge, TN. I will also photograph some of my Tennecomp things (my Minidek, some Omnibus boards, etc.) at some point. Thanks, Kyle P.S. My Minidek came with some carts, but the pressure pads are all rotted. A cursory glance online didn't turn up any source of replacement pads in stock for Fidelipacs/Stereo-Paks. Anyone have any suggestions, or tips on making your own? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri May 18 16:30:31 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 22:30:31 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> , <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> I thought I had captioned that picture. It's the original RAID controller which I am not using. If I plug it in it starts the disks in the RAID array which takes ages, and steals the hard disk BIOS vector which I need for the SCSI card that's running the system. I didn't want to remove it fully as I need to label the cables feeding it. One feeds the top drive bays, and the other the bottom so if I ever need to put it back it I need to know which is which. If I get some free time I will have a go at starting the disks in it and repairing the RAID array, and perhaps copy the disks that are installed. Dave From: Benjamin Huntsman Sent: 18 May 2018 21:49 To: Dave Wade ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 I gotta ask, what's the deal with the dangling card? That cracked me up! Thanks for posting some pics! _____ From: cctalk > on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46 PM To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > -----Original Message----- > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > > Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 > To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > That's, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers > I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every > thing must be on the MCA bus. > > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec > card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, > no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a > >4GB drive option. > > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find > the drive and install the proper drivers. > > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that > puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives > depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card > in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD > ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 P390 flic.kr Explore this photo album by Dave G4UGM on Flickr! next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. Dave > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I > went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I > kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. > > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I'll install AIX on and > have an R/390. ;-) I haven't had the time yet to make any progress on it. > > But it's good to know that you've managed to do this if I decide to go back > and attempt the PC route again. > > TTFN - Guy From fmc at reanimators.org Fri May 18 17:03:05 2018 From: fmc at reanimators.org (Frank McConnell) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 15:03:05 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_HP_Series_9000_early_1980=E2=80=99s_computer_hard?= =?utf-8?Q?ware?= In-Reply-To: References: <29C69854-5859-4135-948D-6411F9C9C6BD@gmail.com> <1636fdc8c25-c8d-9a6e@webjas-vac174.srv.aolmail.net> <217B6A0C-F7E8-45EF-A179-19B298F35EE4@reanimators.org> Message-ID: <61154ADF-51FB-4299-92E3-4D3E8BFA70E9@reanimators.org> On May 17, 2018, at 15:48, Warner Losh wrote: > On Thu, May 17, 2018 at 4:15 PM, Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > HP-UX for them is very interesting from a historical perspective in that the Unix kernel is a complete rewrite. It is hosted on top of HP?s ?SUN OS? operating system (there is also a single-user BASIC system for the 9020, also hosted on SUN OS) and written in HP?s MODCAL language. The filesystem is HP?s Structured Directory Format. The userland is largely made up of ports from AT&T System III (and later System V) and 4BSD. > > HP-UX did a fairly extensive kernel rewrite, but implemented substantially the same system call interface. This was apparent in a number of ways (the binary format was different from other machines in ways I can't quite recall, not quite COFF). They did ship mostly programs from BSD and SysV, though through quirks of the legal minefield of the early days of Unix, they did it under their System III license, at least in the early days... Don't know if that ever changed to a System V license or not since they didn't have a System V kernel... I am thinking HP did at least four flavors of HP-UX. First was HP-UX for the first-generation 9000s that became the Series 500. I think it took System III as a baseline and reimplemented in MODCAL, and later added System V support. Second was HP-UX for the 9836 (later Series 200). That is a 68010 system and I think was a System III port. Third was HP-UX for Series 300. These are 680x0 systems for x>=2 and I think their HP-UX was a System III port later upgraded to System V. Fourth was HP-UX for Series 800. These are PA-RISC minis and I think their HP-UX was a 4BSD port with System V features for compatibility with series 300. I?m not sure where the Integral fit in. That was a single-user 68000, probably closest to series 200, with no MMU. > So when it is running HP-UX it looks like Unix, with some exceptions. One is that if you open and read a directory from your C program there are no entries for . (current) or .. (parent) directories; these are done in SDF?s directory entry and not present in the actual Unix directory. Yes, ls -a shows them: it is faking them to make it look more like Unix! > > I think they must have fixed this, or it wasn't true for readdir(). I ported the OI toolkit to HP-UX once upon a time and the file dialog boxes just worked, and we had . and .. in there? Were you really working with a Series 500? I don?t think anyone ever ported X libraries to them. No usable TCP/IP stack on them unless you bought the Wollongong product. (I am thinking HP had one for it too, for their NS/9000 products, but it was IEEE 802.3 framing with 802.2 LLC header and not interoperable with Ethernet II.) Series 300/400 (Motorola 680x0 for x >= 2) ran an HP-UX that I think is a System V derived kernel, or at least the later releases were, with a 4BSD TCP stack. Series 800/700 ran an HP-UX that I think was a new port from 4BSD, but with System V features added for compatibility with the Series 300. > -Frank McConnell (supported Wollongong?s TCP/IP on these) > > Danger! The Sea Monster Comes! Yup, my real thing there was supporting Wollongong?s WIN/TCP for MPE/V, which wasn?t really Wollongong?s TCP/IP but was instead Telnet, FTP, and SMTP clients and services on top of HP?s NetIPC TCP API. Telnet and FTP were mostly 4BSD ports to CCS C/3000 and NetIPC and MPE. (And in this message, y?all are getting all the wonder of Apple Mail promoting characters to Unicode and the horrible Gmail quoting with spaces. I hope it?s understandable.) -Frank McConnell From useddec at gmail.com Sat May 19 00:23:43 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 00:23:43 -0500 Subject: DEC COM, MEM, ETC. Message-ID: I've been doing some sorting looking for some boards for a list member, and found a few items I will probably never use. Shipping from 61820, and overseas upon request. Stateside shipping is $16 for as many hex or quad height boards as you want, and $11 for as many quads as you want. Looking for offers, the more you want, the better. M7800 DL11 M7819 DZ11 M8202 DMC11 M8203 DMP11 M8206 DMC11 M8637 MSV11 M8639-YA, YB RQDX M8722 MS11-MB 11/44 M8728 11/70 MOS M8743 MS11-PB Boards only, no cables unless part of board. This is only the tip of the iceberg, feel free to ask about others. I do have one 11/70 memory box left. I think it is MOS, and I will check if requested. Many thanks, Paul From useddec at gmail.com Sat May 19 00:45:44 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 00:45:44 -0500 Subject: DEC COM, MEM, ETC. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW, I do trade, but there is not much DEC gear I need. I'm also interested in coins and currency (US and foreign), and some Boy Scout items, On Sat, May 19, 2018 at 12:23 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I've been doing some sorting looking for some boards for a list member, > and found a few items I will probably never use. Shipping from 61820, and > overseas upon request. Stateside shipping is $16 for as many hex or quad > height boards as you want, and $11 for as many quads as you want. > > Looking for offers, the more you want, the better. > > M7800 DL11 > M7819 DZ11 > M8202 DMC11 > M8203 DMP11 > M8206 DMC11 > M8637 MSV11 > M8639-YA, YB RQDX > M8722 MS11-MB 11/44 > M8728 11/70 MOS > M8743 MS11-PB > > Boards only, no cables unless part of board. > > This is only the tip of the iceberg, feel free to ask about others. > > I do have one 11/70 memory box left. I think it is MOS, and I will check > if requested. > > Many thanks, Paul > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat May 19 00:48:43 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 01:48:43 -0400 Subject: Tennecomp In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08e301d3ef35$0c38cab0$24aa6010$@gmail.com> Three possibly interesting papers about some Tennecomp equipment uses. The third (MCA FOCAL) references the "PDP-9, PDP-9/L, or PDP-15". Also references DEC-15-MR2B-D "Advanced Monitor Software System for PDP-15/20/30/40". https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.3758%2FBF03201748.pdf https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5488/56767b7c6a5b97d5076902ff92e94ff3e836.pdf https://digital.library.unt.edu/ark:/67531/metadc1026093/m2/1/high_res_d/4603095.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Kyle Owen via cctalk Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 5:22 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Tennecomp Al uploaded some of my Tennecomp docs onto Bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/tennecomp/ He also already had some brochures, which are very interesting as well. Anyone else have some Tennecomp stuff? I've got more stuff to scan, including a bunch of schematics (size C paper, for the most part), as well as a few other manuals I believe. I'd be curious to hear any of their history, especially because of their location in Oak Ridge, TN. I will also photograph some of my Tennecomp things (my Minidek, some Omnibus boards, etc.) at some point. Thanks, Kyle P.S. My Minidek came with some carts, but the pressure pads are all rotted. A cursory glance online didn't turn up any source of replacement pads in stock for Fidelipacs/Stereo-Paks. Anyone have any suggestions, or tips on making your own? From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 19 01:42:52 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 23:42:52 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Last call is there any interest ? On Fri, May 18, 2018, 8:14 AM Pete Lancashire wrote: > The serial numbers > > p720 > > 8202-E4B 106AD5P > 8202-E4B 106AD6P > > HMC > > 7042-CR4 10-72F0B > > On Sat, May 12, 2018, 5:28 AM Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> This time not so 'classic' >> >> My last job was maintaining IBM p7's and eventually p8's. >> >> One thing I started was putting together a home setup. But like all the >> other >> projects the gear has become redundant to me. >> >> The 'stack' consists of 2 each IBM p720's, a CR6 HMC, and a KVM drawer. >> >> The p720 do NOT have any hard drives or carriers, but both are available >> via >> Ebay. The carrier was used in more than one model, and in the past I've >> bought carriers with small disks for < $20 each, then found larger disks >> of >> various brands. >> >> And the rails are missing from the p720's. >> >> Google "ibm p720" >> >> I can't remember how much RAM, number of CPUs etc but one p720 was >> 'loaded'. >> >> If interested let me know and >> >> If anyone knows a good AIX list please let me know >> >> I'll try to get a few photo's this weekend. >> >> The 'stack' is located in Portland, Oregon. >> >> NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. >> >> >> -pete >> >> >> >> From linimon at lonesome.com Sat May 19 02:00:31 2018 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 02:00:31 -0500 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180519070030.GA7360@lonesome.com> On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 11:42:52PM -0700, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > Last call is there any interest ? Would love to if you can change your mind on shipping? Austin, TX, is kind of a far drive. mcl From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 19 02:13:51 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 00:13:51 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: <20180519070030.GA7360@lonesome.com> References: <20180519070030.GA7360@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Yeah another time another place I would but now one even has to load them themselves I can't move anything anymore. I'll even toss two wheeled cart they are on On Sat, May 19, 2018, 12:00 AM Mark Linimon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, May 18, 2018 at 11:42:52PM -0700, Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > > Last call is there any interest ? > > Would love to if you can change your mind on shipping? > > Austin, TX, is kind of a far drive. > > mcl > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat May 19 06:15:32 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 07:15:32 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time Message-ID: <20180519111532.8E63F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Linimon > Would love to if you can change your mind on shipping? https://www.pakmail.com/ Like I said, they will come pick things up, as they sit - perfect for Pete's situation. And from my experience, not _always_ cheap, but _usually_ pretty good (e.g. a large PDP-11 in a 19" rack from Toronto to Virginia was about $500, which for international freight on something that big is pretty good.) Noel From robert626001 at gmail.com Sat May 19 06:50:10 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 06:50:10 -0500 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: <20180519111532.8E63F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180519111532.8E63F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > Noel Chiappa wrote: > > https://www.pakmail.com/ I'll second Noel's point about Pakmail. I used them to send a big AS/400 to Canada once. They charged $200 for the 250 mile round trip to collect it, plus crating & freight. In fact, if Mark doesn't go for it I may be tempted... Robert From pete at petelancashire.com Sat May 19 09:37:39 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 07:37:39 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: <20180519111532.8E63F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have used Pak Mail in the past where they have come out the stuff vanishes and eventually gets delivered. But unless I hear from somebody that they're willing to offer some money for this stack I'm not going to go through the process for $100. By the way I'm not asking much more than that local pickup. Today or sometime this weekend they're going to go out on the back porch with a tarp over them. And when that pile gets too big my estate will determine what to do with the stuff. On Sat, May 19, 2018, 4:50 AM Robert via cctalk wrote: > > Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > > https://www.pakmail.com/ > > I'll second Noel's point about Pakmail. I used them to send a big > AS/400 to Canada once. They charged $200 for the 250 mile round trip > to collect it, plus crating & freight. > > In fact, if Mark doesn't go for it I may be tempted... > > Robert > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 19 13:28:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 12:28:26 -0600 Subject: Personal Communications Message-ID: I ran across the following messages in comp.os.os2.marketplace (referenced from comp.os.os2.programmer.misc) and remembered that there were a few people talking about IBM's Personal Communications Manger here, particularly in the context of the P/390. So I figured that I'd cross post the info. The asking price (free + S&H) seems reasonable.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 19 13:34:01 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 12:34:01 -0600 Subject: Personal Communications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4bc33d02-52eb-7899-9da8-49adf8444846@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/19/2018 12:28 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I ran across the following messages in comp.os.os2.marketplace > (referenced from comp.os.os2.programmer.misc) and remembered that there > were a few people talking about IBM's Personal Communications Manger > here, particularly in the context of the P/390.? So I figured that I'd > cross post the info.? The asking price (free + S&H) seems reasonable.) It loos like the attached messages got stripped. I'll copy body contents here. There are a couple other items by the same poster; ITSO redbooks, and OS/2 Warp 4 "Launch Event Demo" CD. -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: PCOM 4.11 NIB Date: Fri, 18 May 2018 14:54:43 -0400 From: Iron Spring Software Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.marketplace Free to good home (you pay $10.00 shipping) IBM Personal Communications 3270 version 4.11. See link for photo of contents, including CD, manuals, and license. Floppy included which I believe contains the EHLLAPI API. (long link) \\https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XaRnmNis3A_aS_l58A66ljM9xoFWxRDe5-LMFWMcPRQ/edit?usp=sharing -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: PCOM 4.2 and 4.21 Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 13:26:57 -0400 From: Iron Spring Software Organization: A noiseless patient Spider Newsgroups: comp.os.os2.marketplace Free (you pay $10 shipping): IBM PCOM - Personal Communications/3270 versions 4.2 and 4.21 (combined). Materials in original box including CDs and license info. "For Windows, Windows 95, Windows NT, and OS/2 Warp". Bonus - Attachmate IRMA 3 configuration/diagnostics diskette "for DOS and OS/2". Box marked "not for resale." See: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Mo12UfvabkR4R4V6bCdxSIdyv5QNwIWtyZPBo7q8RE4 -- Grant. . . . unix || die From mazzinia at tin.it Sat May 19 13:43:59 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 20:43:59 +0200 Subject: R: Personal Communications In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00b101d3efa1$5a0dbfe0$0e293fa0$@tin.it> Ehm Where are the messages ? -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Grant Taylor via cctalk Inviato: sabato 19 maggio 2018 20:28 A: cctalk Oggetto: Personal Communications I ran across the following messages in comp.os.os2.marketplace (referenced from comp.os.os2.programmer.misc) and remembered that there were a few people talking about IBM's Personal Communications Manger here, particularly in the context of the P/390. So I figured that I'd cross post the info. The asking price (free + S&H) seems reasonable.) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From robert626001 at gmail.com Sat May 19 14:04:30 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 14:04:30 -0500 Subject: Personal Communications In-Reply-To: <00b101d3efa1$5a0dbfe0$0e293fa0$@tin.it> References: <00b101d3efa1$5a0dbfe0$0e293fa0$@tin.it> Message-ID: > Mazzini Alessandro wrote: > Ehm > > Where are the messages ? Must be a mail client issue. I saw them, along with two attachments to boot. Robert From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 19 14:30:01 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 13:30:01 -0600 Subject: Personal Communications In-Reply-To: References: <00b101d3efa1$5a0dbfe0$0e293fa0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <37e59ab3-a7b5-834a-53e2-e1e528618b7e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/19/2018 01:04 PM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > Must be a mail client issue. I saw them, along with two attachments to boot. I sent the messages twice in almost identical messages. The first time they were message/rfc822 attachments, which were stripped from the copy I got from the mailing list. So I replied to that message and included the copy of the original attachments as inline text in the body of my reply. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From couryhouse at aol.com Sat May 19 15:10:50 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 19 May 2018 16:10:50 -0400 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Message-ID: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave men and women! Ed# WWW,SMECC,org ? ?KF7RWW From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sun May 20 03:35:43 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 10:35:43 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 19 May 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave men and women! Ed# WWW,SMECC,org ? ?KF7RWW a) This is an international list b) This topic has absolutely nothing to do with classic computing c) I get a bit allergic about glorifyin arms and the like Christian From holm at freibergnet.de Sun May 20 04:29:26 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 11:29:26 +0200 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20180520092926.GA21371@beast.freibergnet.de> Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 19 May 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > > Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave men and women! Ed# WWW,SMECC,org ? ?KF7RWW > > a) This is an international list > b) This topic has absolutely nothing to do with classic computing > c) I get a bit allergic about glorifyin arms and the like > > Christian Agree fully. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 05:44:52 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 06:44:52 -0400 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: <20180520092926.GA21371@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <1637d26e6ed-c89-74fa@webjas-vad206.srv.aolmail.net> Opps? Noted. Ed# ? In a message dated 5/20/2018 2:29:47 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 19 May 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > > Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave men and women! Ed# WWW,SMECC,org ? ?KF7RWW > > a) This is an international list > b) This topic has absolutely nothing to do with classic computing > c) I get a bit allergic about glorifyin arms and the like > > Christian Agree fully. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 20 07:49:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 08:49:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MS11 M8110/M8120 controller card differences Message-ID: <20180520124925.9F0FF18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I notice that M8120 controller card for the MS11 seems to share its etch with the earlier M8110 variant (the M8120 says "M8110" in the etch :-); so the differences must be component/configuration/ECO. Does anyone happen to know what the differences between the two are? Thanks! Noel From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun May 20 09:32:40 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 10:32:40 -0400 Subject: Interest Check: Belden Thicknet 10base5 Ethernet Coax In-Reply-To: References: <94c5e46c-c78d-cb4b-5553-24eb5b54e9c3@sydex.com> <202d49f6-59e3-2ec5-3f9f-fee1443f008f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Hi. I almost forget about this.i amat vcf.today. did you ever get the cable On Sat, Feb 3, 2018, 6:17 PM systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > It looks like there's probably enough interest for me to pick up a spool of > the stuff. I haven't heard back from the eBay guy, but if nothing else my > local supplier is a known quantity. I'll start looking into costs for N > connectors, terminator availability, etc. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > > On Tue, Jan 30, 2018 at 7:06 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk > > wrote: > > > Full disclosure on price: right now if I buy one spool, it'll be > > $0.60/foot > > > to me, I was thinking I'd charge $1/foot for moderate lengths, of > course > > > I'm willing to make a deal on bulk purchases, especially if it ends up > > > being local pick-up (here in VA or VCF East). > > . > > I plan to be at VCF East (although mid-May makes it more difficult to > > block out for me than usual). I'd be up for a number of feet - enough > > for maybe 3-5 stations? I would want to know the cost of adding the N > > connectors, but I'd probably take them installed. > > > > I currently have about 10-15 feet of the yellow with black stripes > > variety, barely enough to demonstrate it. > > > > -ethan > > > From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sun May 20 12:05:14 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 13:05:14 -0400 Subject: MS11 M8110/M8120 controller card differences In-Reply-To: <20180520124925.9F0FF18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180520124925.9F0FF18C091@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Had to look it up, 8110 for MOS memory, and 8120 for bipolar memory is what field guyde list says. I think the there was some change from special select parts and a move to schottky 74S series around the time of the 45/50 days. http://www.ibiblio.org/pub/academic/computer-science/history/pdp-11/hardware/field-guide.txt but my memory could be wrong - 11 group did a bit of rebranding with model numbers and parts change, 11/40 was faster than 11/35, but if you changed a wire, they were the same. bb On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 8:49 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So I notice that M8120 controller card for the MS11 seems to share its etch > with the earlier M8110 variant (the M8120 says "M8110" in the etch :-); so the > differences must be component/configuration/ECO. Does anyone happen to know > what the differences between the two are? Thanks! > > Noel From rich.cini at gmail.com Sun May 20 11:45:04 2018 From: rich.cini at gmail.com (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 12:45:04 -0400 Subject: OT: Vintage test and other equipment available Message-ID: <0E07C726-2DDF-480E-97FC-BDC562FE264C@gmail.com> All ? ??????????????? I did a rescue of some vintage HP equipment for VCFE and the donor had the following vintage test and other equipment left over in his storage unit (from his father, who had recently passed, an engineer for North American Bosch). It goes to the dumpster at the end of May. Location is Long Island (Farmingdale). If anyone is interested, please contact me off-list. Thanks. ??????????????? *????????????? HP 202C Low Frequency Oscillator ??????????????? *????????????? HP 202A Low Frequency Function Generator ??????????????? *????????????? HP 4000 Vacuum Tube Voltmeter ??????????????? *????????????? Heathkit IG-62 color bar generator ??????????????? *????????????? Megadata Multi-video Display (looks like on-screen video titler) ??????????????? *????????????? Invac triple paper tape drive in a 6' rack ??????????????? *????????????? Dumont 403 Oscilloscope Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 20 13:13:28 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 14:13:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MS11 M8110/M8120 controller card differences Message-ID: <20180520181328.51C9218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bob Smith > 8110 for MOS memory, and 8120 for bipolar memory is what field guyde > list says. Well, the early bipolar MS11-C (1K boards) used the M8110 during early production (see e.g. DEC-11-HMSAA-D-D, pg. 1-1), and apparently then switched over to the M8120. I've only seen the later MS11-A bipolar (4K boards - dunno why it's in reverse alpha order) associated with the M8120. > I think the there was some change from special select parts and a move > to schottky 74S series around the time of the 45/50 days. I wondered that, but the MS11-C and MS11-A are the same speed (300 nsec); although maybe the M8110 was a bit marginal, and component changes in the M8120 made it more robust? I guess I'll have to do it the hard way, and compare the ICs... :-( > 11/40 was faster than 11/35, but if you changed a wire, they were the > same. I've heard of other manufacturers doing that, but I thought the /35 and /40 were identical, except for the number on the console inlay, and the sales channel? Noel From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun May 20 14:20:29 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 12:20:29 -0700 Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card In-Reply-To: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> References: <306d2cc5-102a-cc92-0c55-a7ee5e8ccd25@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7BF20CDB-53F3-4994-ABD1-8E55A3D6AD7B@gmail.com> I got it! Thanks Al, I had been looking for one of these for a while, but the few ones that were available were at ridiculous prices. I wanted it mostly so I can reverse engineer it and make more of them, and/or get some inspiration for an FPGA based I/O board. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Al Kossow , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 4:51 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card https://www.ebay.com/itm/163039837440 obviously NOT used.. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 20 14:48:01 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: >> Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave >> men and women! On Sun, 20 May 2018, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > a) This is an international list > b) This topic has absolutely nothing to do with classic computing > c) I get a bit allergic about glorifyin arms and the like d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of armed forces: big-endian V little-endian vi v emacs DEC V IBM CDC V IBM TRS80 V Apple Atari V Commodore IBM V Apple Android V IOS Linux V Windoze V MacOS number of buttons on a mouse From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sun May 20 14:50:57 2018 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 15:50:57 -0400 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 5/20/2018 3:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our >>> brave men and women! > > On Sun, 20 May 2018, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >> a) This is an international list >> b) This topic has absolutely nothing to do with classic computing >> c) I get a bit allergic about glorifyin arms and the like > > d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of > armed forces: > big-endian V little-endian > vi v emacs > DEC V IBM > CDC V IBM > TRS80 V Apple > Atari V Commodore > IBM V Apple > Android V IOS > Linux V Windoze V MacOS > number of buttons on a mouse > Use 'em all and let god sort it out? From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun May 20 15:02:00 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 15:02:00 -0500 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <00bd01d3f075$69f4d810$3dde8830$@classiccmp.org> Fred wrote... d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of armed forces: big-endian V little-endian vi v emacs DEC V IBM CDC V IBM TRS80 V Apple Atari V Commodore IBM V Apple Android V IOS Linux V Windoze V MacOS number of buttons on a mouse ------------ You left off top-posting, and reply-to-list. J From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 20 15:23:37 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 13:23:37 -0700 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <85031E81-FB98-489A-B744-0A736BBEFA16@avanthar.com> > On May 19, 2018, at 1:10 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 Saturday, May 19 ... Do not forget our brave men and women! Ed# WWW,SMECC,org KF7RWW Thank you for taking the time to honor our Active Duty servicemen and servicewomen Ed. Next weekend, on the 28th, we honor those fallen in the line of service. Which includes those who died fighting for the freedom of those in Europe. Zane From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun May 20 15:29:21 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 21:29:21 +0100 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: <00bd01d3f075$69f4d810$3dde8830$@classiccmp.org> References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> <00bd01d3f075$69f4d810$3dde8830$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <02a801d3f079$3c149fd0$b43ddf70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > via cctalk > Sent: 20 May 2018 21:02 > To: 'Fred Cisin' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 > > > Fred wrote... > d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of > armed > forces: > big-endian V little-endian > vi v emacs > DEC V IBM > CDC V IBM > TRS80 V Apple > Atari V Commodore > IBM V Apple > Android V IOS > Linux V Windoze V MacOS > number of buttons on a mouse > ------------ > > You left off top-posting, and reply-to-list. > > J >From some of the threads on this list and elsewhere I would have thought that the use of armed forces would actually be a good way to resolve these issues once and for all ;-) Oh, and I would add tabs vs spaces to the list. Regards Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 20 15:37:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 13:37:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: <00bd01d3f075$69f4d810$3dde8830$@classiccmp.org> References: <1637a06b580-c92-10758@webjas-vae010.srv.aolmail.net> <00bd01d3f075$69f4d810$3dde8830$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of armed > forces: > big-endian V little-endian > vi v emacs > DEC V IBM > CDC V IBM > TRS80 V Apple > Atari V Commodore > IBM V Apple > Android V IOS > Linux V Windoze V MacOS > number of buttons on a mouse On Sun, 20 May 2018, Jay West wrote: > You left off top-posting, and reply-to-list. I left those off, because I thought that we HAD solved those. (only locally to this list, and with a few pockets of resistance) -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 16:20:58 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 17:20:58 -0400 Subject: PING JAY sent you a really weird DG system pic yesterday may be in ur bad msg folder check it out - ed# Message-ID: <1637f6d4a09-c8b-9ac2@webjas-vac156.srv.aolmail.net> PING JAY sent you a really weird DG system pic yesterday may be in ur bad msg folder check it out - ed# From spectre at floodgap.com Sun May 20 16:28:44 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 14:28:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: from Fred Cisin via cctalk at "May 20, 18 12:48:01 pm" Message-ID: <201805202128.w4KLSjuX16449618@floodgap.com> > d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of > armed forces: > big-endian V little-endian "You know, I used to be liberal, but now I'm *anti* busing!" - The Planet That Went Ape -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- In Computer Science, we stand on each other's feet. -- Brian Reid ---------- From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 16:30:05 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 17:30:05 -0400 Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card In-Reply-To: <7BF20CDB-53F3-4994-ABD1-8E55A3D6AD7B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1637f75a223-c8b-142dc@webjas-vab089.srv.aolmail.net> Marc? - Enjoy!?I? have the one? (we? built? up? from blank ) we had a? stack? and would? add our on buss and flag? chips and? parts)? with all the added? voice synth? stuff..? ?I do not think I will be attempting to build? anything to add on to? an hp-1000 or a? 2100 in the new? future.? Enjoy? it!? ?I? wish? we had? saved some of the? ?left over? blank ones? we had? though? when I retired. you would? have been welcomed? to 9 of them. ? In a message dated 5/20/2018 12:20:39 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I got it! Thanks Al, I had been looking for one of these for a while, but the few ones that were available were at ridiculous prices. I wanted it mostly so I can reverse engineer it and make more of them, and/or get some inspiration for an FPGA based I/O board. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Al Kossow , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, May 9, 2018 at 4:51 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: HP 2100 prototyping card https://www.ebay.com/itm/163039837440 obviously NOT used.. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 17:04:00 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?I_ran_across_this_strange_modernis?= =?UTF-8?Q?tic=C2=A0_Data_General_...odd=C2=A0_computer=C2=A0?= Message-ID: <1637f94a9fd-c8b-9868@webjas-vad035.srv.aolmail.net> While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# ? ? "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" take the quotes away and put in browser see photo ? ? There are? 2 only I find on net... correct me? if there are more please especially? if there are manual links... the only? ?one physically? is? one at? chm that? is not as? wide. ( maybe no hard drive or less i/o options?) Any other? sites? with info?? 1981 and? multi? user? micro... cool!? ? link to smyth retail site that? ?used these? ? https://www.smythretail.com/our-team/smyth-history-a-tradition-in-automation/ ? link to photo only ? "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" take the quotes away and put in browser see photo From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun May 20 17:08:25 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 15:08:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?I_ran_across_this_strange_modernis?= =?UTF-8?Q?tic=C2=A0_Data_General_...odd=C2=A0_computer=C2=A0?= In-Reply-To: <1637f94a9fd-c8b-9868@webjas-vad035.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637f94a9fd-c8b-9868@webjas-vad035.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 20 May 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# Had you left related ones unsupervised? From cclist at sydex.com Sun May 20 18:13:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 16:13:59 -0700 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=c2=a0_Data_Gene?= =?UTF-8?Q?ral_...odd=c2=a0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <1637f94a9fd-c8b-9868@webjas-vad035.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637f94a9fd-c8b-9868@webjas-vad035.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <96afc442-76af-a280-c6fd-e534ef614645@sydex.com> On 05/20/2018 03:04 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > ? > ? > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" > > take the quotes away and p It might be a good idea to check with Bruce Ray (Wild Hare Computer Systems). He's a font of knowledge on all things DG. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 18:29:21 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 19:29:21 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modern?= =?UTF-8?Q?istic=C2=A0_Data_General_...odd=C2=A0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <96afc442-76af-a280-c6fd-e534ef614645@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> many many? thanks? Chuck!? I have sent? him email? and a webmail? from his? site. ? again!? fantastic? thanks? ?for your? help! ? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 5/20/2018 4:14:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > ? > ? > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" > > take the quotes away and p It might be a good idea to check with Bruce Ray (Wild Hare Computer Systems). He's a font of knowledge on all things DG. --Chuck From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sun May 20 19:16:55 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:16:55 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=c2=a0_Data_Gene?= =?UTF-8?Q?ral_...odd=c2=a0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Ed - That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? Bruce ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/20/2018 5:29 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/20/2018 4:14:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > >> While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer >> I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# >> >> >> "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" >> From couryhouse at aol.com Sun May 20 19:32:35 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 20:32:35 -0400 Subject: we also have a 19 inch blue,rack eliplise also... need the et head terminal In-Reply-To: <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> References: <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <163801cb618-c8e-a3bd@webjas-vac133.srv.aolmail.net> Bruce... we also have a 19 inch blue,rack eliplise also in smecc museum ... need the et head terminal.. it has,a funny small portrait format tape dive....half inch but not fell size Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, May 20, 2018 Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: G'day Ed - That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? Bruce ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/20/2018 5:29 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > > In a message dated 5/20/2018 4:14:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > >> While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer >> I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# >> >> >> "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg" >> From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun May 20 19:37:29 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 17:37:29 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=C2=A0_Data_?= =?utf-8?Q?General_=2E=2E=2Eodd=C2=A0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> References: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <012AEFC6-B164-47D7-9EF6-4E0579B32EB7@avanthar.com> On May 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > > G'day Ed - > > That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) > > The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. > > The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. > > And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? > > > Bruce It sounds like a fascinating hardware design, and pretty much one I?ve long dreamed of. It?s interesting to know that DG made such a system. Are any manuals for it online? Zane From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun May 20 21:31:58 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 02:31:58 +0000 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? Message-ID: For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system. I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in FORTRAN. This weekend, I am reading "the Engineering Design Revolution", a 650 page history of the CAD industry by David Weisberg, who was there and worked for many of the companies in the beginning of the industry, I highly recommend this for anyone interested in CAD: www.cadhistory.net The Engineering Design Revolution www.cadhistory.net The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers? I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest in the software discussed? Randy From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sun May 20 21:34:04 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 21:34:04 -0500 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: prolly hiding in closets of architecutre offices enineerin frims On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 9:31 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin > Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's > MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system. > > I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in > FORTRAN. > > > This weekend, I am reading "the Engineering Design Revolution", a 650 page > history of the CAD industry by David Weisberg, who was there and worked for > many of the companies in the beginning of the industry, I highly recommend > this for anyone interested in CAD: > > > www.cadhistory.net > > The Engineering Design Revolution > www.cadhistory.net > The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and Computer > Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of Engineering. By. David E. > Weisberg > > > > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, > Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN > ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of > mathematical geometry done on computers? > > > I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest > in the software discussed? > > > Randy > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun May 20 22:31:17 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 00:31:17 -0300 Subject: aox double time 16 - Any info? Message-ID: Greetings! A friend of mine got a aox double time 16 board into a mac SE Unfortunately it isn't working (not accelerating the mac) and we're unable to find any info on it Any helpers? :o) thanks Alexandre From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 21 06:52:20 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 07:52:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? Message-ID: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Randy Dawson > For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD > ... > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems > .. ever make it out Well, not quite what you're asking about, I think (it sounds like you're interested in MechE CAD, not EE, even though SPICE was mentioned), but the original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think. > I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the > interest in the software discussed? Is that a plaint ('how come we don't do software'), or a query ('where is software discussed')? If the latter, it tends to be system specific, from what I've seen - e.g. there's 'TUHS' for Unix, "its-hackers" for ITS, etc. Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon May 21 08:03:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 09:03:15 -0400 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5A84C47F-D32E-4FDA-B658-83ADA930A970@comcast.net> > On May 21, 2018, at 7:52 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Randy Dawson > >> For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD >> ... >> My question is, did any of the source code for these systems >> .. ever make it out > > Well, not quite what you're asking about, I think (it sounds like you're > interested in MechE CAD, not EE, even though SPICE was mentioned), but the > original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think. Another old CAD program is NEC2, the antenna (etc.) simulator. Derivatives of it are still around. About 20 years ago I found a version (in FORTRAN IV) which had been tweaked for DEC Fortran, and worked fine with gfortran. I found that the documentation and full source code were available from the US Government (in printed form). paul From mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de Mon May 21 07:48:56 2018 From: mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de (Waldemar Brodkorb) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 14:48:56 +0200 Subject: micro pdp11/83 power supply In-Reply-To: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> References: <20180513055152.GB2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Message-ID: <20180521124856.GL2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Hi, Waldemar Brodkorb via cctech wrote, > Hi, > > I started to revive an old Micro PDP11/83 I have for over 12 years > now. It is fully assembled and last time I tried to start the > machine it some kind of started. > My biggest issue at the moment is the power supply. > > After the machine is running for a while, let's say 10 minutes and > then when I poweroff, the power supply starts producing a lot of > dense smoke. The smell is very penetrant. > > What can I do with the power supply? Do I need to exchange it > completely or just parts of it? > > At the moment I removed it from the case like described here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/microPDP11/EK-MIC11-TM-002_MicroPDP11_Systems_Technical_Manual_Sep85.pdf > > Thanks in advance for any starting hints, Thanks to anybody have given a response. (some personal mails). I successfully reassembled the pdp11 after changing the two blown filters. We have a small electronic shop in Bonn, which had the stuff available: http://www.pm-elektronik-bonn.de So now I can successfully start and stop the machine. I am planning the next steps, may be I will ask some more questions the next days. best regards Waldemar From bygg at cafax.se Mon May 21 15:31:32 2018 From: bygg at cafax.se (Johnny Eriksson) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 15:31:32 WET DST Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: Your message of Sun, 20 May 2018 12:48:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: Fred Cisin wrote: > d) The TRULY IMPORTANT issues will never be solved through the use of > armed forces: > big-endian V little-endian > vi v emacs > DEC V IBM > CDC V IBM > TRS80 V Apple > Atari V Commodore > IBM V Apple > Android V IOS > Linux V Windoze V MacOS > number of buttons on a mouse On the other hand, the fight against the X86 architecture might be done with the help of arm forces... --Johnny /\_/\ ( *.* ) > ^ < From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 21 08:38:31 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 15:38:31 +0200 Subject: Happy Armed Forces Day 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180521133830.GJ15779@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 03:31:32PM +0000, Johnny Eriksson via cctalk wrote: > > On the other hand, the fight against the X86 architecture might be done > with the help of arm forces... Bringing Acorns to a flame war sounds RISCy :-) From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Mon May 21 11:24:52 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 12:24:52 -0400 Subject: MS11 M8110/M8120 controller card differences In-Reply-To: <20180520181328.51C9218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180520181328.51C9218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 11/35 vs 40, I think there was some attempt to discriminate between the two, as the /35 with no added boxes was a great little machine cost and performance wise, I recall the timing being different when going through the prints for the two machines, got parts for 35 out of surplux, checked the backplane and there was one wire different, fixed it toe match /40 and we gave away the machine as a retirement gift to one of the guys who was starting somekind of boat shop in Maine, can remember his face. maybe his name but that was a long long time ago!! bb On Sun, May 20, 2018 at 2:13 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Bob Smith > > > 8110 for MOS memory, and 8120 for bipolar memory is what field guyde > > list says. > > Well, the early bipolar MS11-C (1K boards) used the M8110 during early > production (see e.g. DEC-11-HMSAA-D-D, pg. 1-1), and apparently then switched > over to the M8120. I've only seen the later MS11-A bipolar (4K boards - dunno > why it's in reverse alpha order) associated with the M8120. > > > I think the there was some change from special select parts and a move > > to schottky 74S series around the time of the 45/50 days. > > I wondered that, but the MS11-C and MS11-A are the same speed (300 nsec); > although maybe the M8110 was a bit marginal, and component changes in the > M8120 made it more robust? > > I guess I'll have to do it the hard way, and compare the ICs... :-( > > > > 11/40 was faster than 11/35, but if you changed a wire, they were the > > same. > > I've heard of other manufacturers doing that, but I thought the /35 and /40 > were identical, except for the number on the console inlay, and the sales > channel? > > Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 21 12:18:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 10:18:23 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <5A84C47F-D32E-4FDA-B658-83ADA930A970@comcast.net> References: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5A84C47F-D32E-4FDA-B658-83ADA930A970@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9ecae073-afb3-b1ce-24f4-f9b5a78be6eb@bitsavers.org> On 5/21/18 6:03 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Another old CAD program is NEC2, the antenna (etc.) simulator. I forgot to post about it here, but NASTRAN is available on github along with a lot of other NASA code. https://github.com/nasa/ It is unlikely that the sources ever made it out from the CAD companies that gobbled each other up in the 70's to 90's From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Mon May 21 12:30:37 2018 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 17:30:37 +0000 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging Message-ID: Message: 20 Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:40:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Fred Cisin >I remember an interview with Lee Felsenstein, in which he was asked how >much a battery power unit for the upcoming Osborne would weigh. He >reponded that the external DC connection was currently for use with a car. >(Lee was driving a Honda Accord). Sorry for the late reply, but I was travelling and needed to dig out the unit. The lead-acid battery for the Osborne Powr-Pak(tm) I own weighs 3.59 kg. Bob From lars at nocrew.org Mon May 21 12:33:22 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 17:33:22 +0000 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> (Noel Chiappa via cctalk's message of "Mon, 21 May 2018 07:52:20 -0400 (EDT)") References: <20180521115220.623A318C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wwovwap7h.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Noel Chiappa wrote: > the original Stanford SUDS is still available, I think. Yes, it's available from saildart.org. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon May 21 12:36:52 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 13:36:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? Message-ID: <20180521173652.7279418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >From: Al Kossow > NASTRAN is available That's a finite element modeling code, isn't it? (I guess it all depends on what the OP meant by 'CAD'...) Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon May 21 12:52:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 13:52:16 -0400 Subject: Kaypro 2000 charging In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: catching up late to this thread...what is the power supply rating for a 2000, and if it's dead will removing the battery allow a person to fire it up or do you have to have a working battery to apply power? I forgot I have one of these buried in my laptop shelf. b On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Robert Feldman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Message: 20 > Date: Wed, 16 May 2018 20:40:04 -0700 (PDT) > From: Fred Cisin > > >I remember an interview with Lee Felsenstein, in which he was asked how > >much a battery power unit for the upcoming Osborne would weigh. He > >reponded that the external DC connection was currently for use with a car. > >(Lee was driving a Honda Accord). > > Sorry for the late reply, but I was travelling and needed to dig out the > unit. > > The lead-acid battery for the Osborne Powr-Pak(tm) I own weighs 3.59 kg. > > Bob > > > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Mon May 21 14:22:29 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 13:22:29 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=c2=a0_Data_Gene?= =?UTF-8?Q?ral_...odd=c2=a0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <012AEFC6-B164-47D7-9EF6-4E0579B32EB7@avanthar.com> References: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> <012AEFC6-B164-47D7-9EF6-4E0579B32EB7@avanthar.com> Message-ID: G'day Zane - I have placed Desktop Generation information for you at: www.NovasAreForever.org/tmp/014-000751-00__The_Desktop_Generation__1983-Jul.01.pdf ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/20/2018 6:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >> >> G'day Ed - >> >> That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) >> >> The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. >> >> The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. >> >> And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? >> >> >> Bruce > > It sounds like a fascinating hardware design, and pretty much one I?ve long dreamed of. It?s interesting to know that DG made such a system. Are any manuals for it online? > > Zane > > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon May 21 14:38:12 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 15:38:12 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modern?= =?UTF-8?Q?istic=C2=A0_Data_General_...odd=C2=A0_computer?= In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16384358c93-c90-14af@webjas-vae022.srv.aolmail.net> EXCELLENT? MANUAL! ED# ? In a message dated 5/21/2018 12:22:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? G'day Zane - I have placed Desktop Generation information for you at: www.NovasAreForever.org/tmp/014-000751-00__The_Desktop_Generation__1983-Jul.01.pdf ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/20/2018 6:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >> >> G'day Ed - >> >> That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) >> >> The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. >> >> The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. >> >> And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? >> >> >> Bruce > > It sounds like a fascinating hardware design, and pretty much one I?ve long dreamed of. It?s interesting to know that DG made such a system. Are any manuals for it online? > > Zane > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon May 21 19:36:01 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 17:36:01 -0700 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re=3A_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=C2=A0_Data?= =?utf-8?Q?_General_=2E=2E=2Eodd=C2=A0_computer?= In-Reply-To: References: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> <012AEFC6-B164-47D7-9EF6-4E0579B32EB7@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <3DCB2D59-9D64-453B-944C-B2B2102688C3@avanthar.com> Thank you Bruce, I took quick look through, and will need to go back and read up on the hardware bits, Chapter 4 looks like it goes into the stuff I?m curious about. I?m normally a software guy, but this is one case, where the hardware is of more interest. Thanks, Zane > On May 21, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Bruce Ray wrote: > > G'day Zane - > > > I have placed Desktop Generation information for you at: > www.NovasAreForever.org/tmp/014-000751-00__The_Desktop_Generation__1983-Jul.01.pdf > > > ----- > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Boulder, Colorado USA > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > > ----- > > Bruce Ray > Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. > Boulder, Colorado USA > bkr at WildHareComputers.com > > ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org > > On 5/20/2018 6:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> On May 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> G'day Ed - >>> >>> That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) >>> >>> The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. >>> >>> The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. >>> >>> And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? >>> >>> >>> Bruce >> It sounds like a fascinating hardware design, and pretty much one I?ve long dreamed of. It?s interesting to know that DG made such a system. Are any manuals for it online? >> Zane From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Mon May 21 20:59:35 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 19:59:35 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=c2=a0_Data_Gene?= =?UTF-8?Q?ral_...odd=c2=a0_computer?= In-Reply-To: <3DCB2D59-9D64-453B-944C-B2B2102688C3@avanthar.com> References: <1637fe2ca1f-c8e-2f51@webjas-vad027.srv.aolmail.net> <906dcacd-b03f-8e3f-738d-7283e65d81a8@Wild-Hare.com> <012AEFC6-B164-47D7-9EF6-4E0579B32EB7@avanthar.com> <3DCB2D59-9D64-453B-944C-B2B2102688C3@avanthar.com> Message-ID: G'day Zane - Like every other computer system created, the Desktop Generation has its own set of quirks and wonders. It was an interesting evolutionary repackage of the microEclipse processor, but I never saw a customer or user site actually using the Model 10's MS-DOS "compatibility feature". The hardware consisted of modular metal frame chassis with snap-on plastic covers. While great for manufacturing and cost control, the delicate plastic cover retaining tabs were always breaking and the covers would pull away from the chassis or just fall off. Only an annoying cosmetic problem until you find that a "dead man's switch" interlock was maintained by the power supply chassis front cover. Yes, the power supply would always be cut off whenever the plastic cover shifted, vibrated or fell off the chassis. Which happened often. (The cheapest solution was the unintended, creative use of a ball point pen combined with nerd engineering.) Many OEMS delivered DG/RDOS- or AOS-based applications written in ICOBOL or Business BASIC (i.e. NAPA). These were good systems for OEMs who had previously developed software for DG - providing their application was not disk-bound. DG eventually was forced to design and sell a parallel I/O bus option to help improve disk performance... to the confusion of customers previously told of the benefits of a serial I/O bus design. The system was followed by the DG/500, which had a similar hardware functional microEclipse-based design but enclosed in a then-familiar IBM PC AT (desktop) form factor. This was the final unsuccessful attempt to defend the low-end 16-bit Eclipse line from the PC onslaught. ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/21/2018 6:36 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Thank you Bruce, I took quick look through, and will need to go back and read up on the hardware bits, Chapter 4 looks like it goes into the stuff I?m curious about. I?m normally a software guy, but this is one case, where the hardware is of more interest. > > Thanks, > Zane > > > > >> On May 21, 2018, at 12:22 PM, Bruce Ray wrote: >> >> G'day Zane - >> >> >> I have placed Desktop Generation information for you at: >> www.NovasAreForever.org/tmp/014-000751-00__The_Desktop_Generation__1983-Jul.01.pdf >> >> >> ----- >> >> Bruce Ray >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >> Boulder, Colorado USA >> bkr at WildHareComputers.com >> >> ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >> >> >> ----- >> >> Bruce Ray >> Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. >> Boulder, Colorado USA >> bkr at WildHareComputers.com >> >> ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org >> >> On 5/20/2018 6:37 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> On May 20, 2018, at 5:16 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> G'day Ed - >>>> >>>> That picture was taken from our web site - specifically a photo of a Data General Desktop Generation Model 10 beside a (1983) newsletter announcing the DG/10's introduction. The computer system was announced in 1983 in DG's effort to blunt the effect of the "microcomputer revolution" on Data General's proprietary systems' sales. It was based on a 16-bit microEclipse processor contained in a small, modular, consumer-oriented (desktop) form factor that ran DG operating systems and software. However, one version also contained an Intel 8086 co-processor that could run newfangled MS-DOS software, thereby targeting the pesky, soon-to-die microcomputer market. ;-) >>>> >>>> The system was designed around modules that could be plugged together which simplified system configuration and expansion. It was very reliable (except for some of the OEM disk drives used) but disk and tape operations were very slow due to its serial I/O data bus design. >>>> >>>> The Desktop Generation series was very popular with many DG users and OEMs worldwide but was overshadowed by the factors that affected the traditional minicomputer manufacturers in the mid-1980s. >>>> >>>> And "yes", information does exist for these systems. Do you have pictures of your system? >>>> >>>> >>>> Bruce >>> It sounds like a fascinating hardware design, and pretty much one I?ve long dreamed of. It?s interesting to know that DG made such a system. Are any manuals for it online? >>> Zane > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Mon May 21 20:01:59 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 21:01:59 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 > From: Ed Sharpe > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? > computer? > > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data > General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > ? > ? > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg > " > > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. Michael Thompson From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 22 06:17:29 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 07:17:29 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16387917d0e-c93-6acd@webjas-vae013.srv.aolmail.net> how many sections to it?? ?CHM? has one? too but one less section than ours... Ed# www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 > From: Ed Sharpe > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? > computer? > > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data > General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > ? > ? > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg > " > > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. Michael Thompson From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 22 06:17:29 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 07:17:29 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16387917d0e-c93-6acd@webjas-vae013.srv.aolmail.net> how many sections to it?? ?CHM? has one? too but one less section than ours... Ed# www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 > From: Ed Sharpe > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? > computer? > > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data > General ...odd? computer? > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > ? > ? > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/DG10_1-300x227.jpg > " > > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. Michael Thompson From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue May 22 06:26:19 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 12:26:19 +0100 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: <16387917d0e-c93-6acd@webjas-vae013.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16387917d0e-c93-6acd@webjas-vae013.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I used to be site engineer at A Well Known British Newspaper printers, they have those little DGs controlling part of the press process. This was back in 2004, I was down there again last year to fix some old HP servers and those little DGs are still going strong. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 22 May 2018 at 12:17, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > how many sections to it? CHM has one too but one less section than > ours... Ed# www.smecc.org > > In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 > > From: Ed Sharpe > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? > > computer? > > > > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data > > General ...odd? computer? > > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > > ? > > ? > > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ > DG10_1-300x227.jpg > > " > > > > > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. > > Michael Thompson > From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 22 09:31:28 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 09:31:28 -0500 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 5/20/2018 9:31 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system. > > I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in FORTRAN. > > > This weekend, I am reading "the Engineering Design Revolution", a 650 page history of the CAD industry by David Weisberg, who was there and worked for many of the companies in the beginning of the industry, I highly recommend this for anyone interested in CAD: > > > www.cadhistory.net > > The Engineering Design Revolution > www.cadhistory.net > The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg > > > > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers? > > > I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest in the software discussed? > > > Randy > > > > You can add Intergraph to that list, as well (their IGDS CAD software is survived bw www.bentley.com - a company that produced a PC version of Intergraph's IGDS, and which almost got sued out of existence, forced to merge, and then finally separated and survived). [The Wiki on MicroStation indicates that MicroStation was initially sold by Intergraph. That is not correct: it was initially a completely separate company, and sold the software directly]. Intergraph itself is nothing but a shell. I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded), install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet controllers. No source code, though. JRJ From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Tue May 22 09:42:08 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 08:42:08 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_I_ran_across_this_strange_modernistic=c2=a0_Data_Gene?= =?UTF-8?Q?ral_...odd=c2=a0_computer?= Message-ID: G'day Zane - Like every other computer system created, the Desktop Generation has its own set of quirks and wonders. It was an interesting evolutionary repackage of the microEclipse processor, but I never saw a customer or user site actually using the Model 10's MS-DOS "compatibility feature". The hardware consisted of modular metal frame chassis with snap-on plastic covers. While great for manufacturing and cost control, the delicate plastic cover retaining tabs were always breaking and the covers would pull away from the chassis or just fall off. Only an annoying cosmetic problem until you find that a "dead man's switch" interlock was maintained by the power supply chassis front cover. Yes, the power supply would always be cut off whenever the plastic cover shifted, vibrated or fell off the chassis. Which happened often. (The cheapest solution was the unintended, creative use of a ball point pen combined with nerd engineering.) Many OEMS delivered DG/RDOS- or AOS-based applications written in ICOBOL or Business BASIC (i.e. NAPA). These were good systems for OEMs who had previously developed software for DG - providing their application was not disk-bound. DG eventually was forced to design and sell a parallel I/O bus option to help improve disk performance... to the confusion of customers previously told of the benefits of a serial I/O bus design. The system was followed by the DG/500, which had a similar hardware functional microEclipse-based design but enclosed in a then-familiar IBM PC AT (desktop) form factor. This was the final unsuccessful attempt to defend the low-end 16-bit Eclipse line from the PC onslaught. ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org From robert626001 at gmail.com Tue May 22 11:56:13 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 11:56:13 -0500 Subject: HP 9000-236 (9836CU) video cable. Message-ID: My latest score is an HP 9836CU (so, color with a 68010 CPU and HP-UX support) with a 98625A disk interface. I got the matching monitor, but I didn't get the video cable. Googling turns up that it's a very proprietary interface, but I could find nothing about the cable. It's a 15 pin D-sub at each end and I'm hoping that it's just straight through, but have been unable to verify that. Does anybody know? Or Is there anybody that has a 9836C or CU and would be willing to examine the video cable, please? Thanks Robert From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue May 22 12:07:13 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 18:07:13 +0100 Subject: HP 9000-236 (9836CU) video cable. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:56 PM, Robert via cctalk wrote: > My latest score is an HP 9836CU (so, color with a 68010 CPU and HP-UX > support) with a 98625A disk interface. I got the matching monitor, but > I didn't get the video cable. > > Googling turns up that it's a very proprietary interface, but I could > find nothing about the cable. It's a 15 pin D-sub at each end and I'm > hoping that it's just straight through, but have been unable to verify > that. > > Does anybody know? Or Is there anybody that has a 9836C or CU and > would be willing to examine the video cable, please? The original cable has moulded connectors so I can't examine the internal wiring. It _is_ straight-through electrically, but there is a catch. There are 3 coaxial cables (and some plain wires) in there. The coaxial cables, I guess 75 ohm characteristic impedance, carry the video signals. They seem to be wired : Red : centre to 12, shield to 13 Green : centre to 10, shield to 2 Blue : centre to 9, shield to 1. The other pins are, as far as I know, plain wires. There is probably an overall shield, grounded to pin 8 The pinout, AFAIK, is : 1 : Blue shield 2 : Green shield 3 : ground 4 : ground 5: N/C 6 : ground 7 : +12V (computer to monitor, to cause the latter to turn on) 8 : ground (overall shield?) 9 : Blue 10 : Green 11 : HSync 12 : Red 13 : Red shield 14 : VBlank 15 : VSync Syncs and blanking are TTL levels, the video signal are current (not voltage) levels, sourced by the monitor and sunk by the computer. -tony From lproven at gmail.com Tue May 22 12:11:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 19:11:52 +0200 Subject: Extracting and viewing the original Mac bitmap fonts today Message-ID: https://medium.com/@bzotto/hidden-sheep-and-mac-typography-archaeology-efce770da76c Complete with easter eggs, source code and samples on Github. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From len at shustek.com Tue May 22 14:55:46 2018 From: len at shustek.com (Len Shustek) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 12:55:46 -0700 Subject: Eudora email client source code released Message-ID: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done! http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue May 22 14:58:38 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 15:58:38 -0400 Subject: Looking for a VALinux console adapter, for model 1000 Message-ID: Console Adapter 102267-00 VA 1000 THanks for any hints or leads! i have one stashed and can't find it of course. bb From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 22 15:01:54 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 16:01:54 -0400 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: I still use Eudora today...since 1995. On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 3:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to > allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, > in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally > done! > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ > > From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue May 22 15:02:59 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 13:02:59 -0700 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> > On May 22, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: > > For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done! > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ > Simply put, WOW! I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac, and I know that I?m not the only one. Unfortunately I also realize that it would take significant effort to update it for current versions of MacOS. I?m using Mail.app now, and it?s largely worthless at finding things in my email archives. Zane From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue May 22 15:09:26 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 13:09:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2018, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: > For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow > the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my > opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done! > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ > This is great! Any idea if pre-built binaries will be availble as well? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue May 22 15:18:11 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 14:18:11 -0600 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <0f7adbde-c0a8-2326-0cd1-f82d17969b59@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/22/2018 01:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: > For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to > allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what > was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's > finally done! > http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ Intriguing. This will definitely be worth messing with. I wonder if Thunderbird will end up with competition and / or borrowing ideas from Eudora. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 22 17:16:17 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 17:16:17 -0500 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> At 02:55 PM 5/22/2018, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: >For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done! >http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ Dang-nabbit. Just a few weeks ago I decided I needed to move away from Eudora. I uninstalled Office 2003 and bought a subscription to Office 365 and began the search for a tool to move all my Eudora 7.1.0.9 email archives to Outlook PST. I settled on https://weirdkid.com/emailchemy/ . It failed until I cranked its Java .vmoptions to 12 gig of RAM. It's very slow... as a single-threaded Java app, it took at least two days for my i7 to crunch my 7 gigs of Eudora folders. The PST is about twice as large. Examining it in Outlook, it felt very slow compared to Eudora on the same machine. Slow to search, slow to view. Made me think I'd need to break up the PST into dozens of chunks. I'm still using Eudora. - John From jfoust at threedee.com Tue May 22 17:18:13 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 17:18:13 -0500 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180522221825.AC602273BF@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:31 AM 5/22/2018, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded), >install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk >controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet >controllers. Did you get that from Nicolet or ETC? I think I was once offered a workstation like that but I forget which Madison friend offered it. - John From rtomek at ceti.pl Tue May 22 18:37:52 2018 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 01:37:52 +0200 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180522233752.GB5843@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 02:31:58AM +0000, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: [...] > > www.cadhistory.net > > The Engineering Design Revolution > www.cadhistory.net > The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and > Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of > Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg Looks interesting. Thanks a lot for bringing this up. > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, > Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of > primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study > this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers? I suspect you already know, but just to be sure: "The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31." [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ] I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess). -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From pete at petelancashire.com Tue May 22 19:44:36 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 17:44:36 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20180522233752.GB5843@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180522233752.GB5843@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: As I clean out if I run across the nine track mag tape of TekCADand mechanical 2D CAD package you can have it. It is source code of 80 column cards of Fortran IV. On Tue, May 22, 2018, 4:37 PM Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, May 21, 2018 at 02:31:58AM +0000, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > [...] > > > > www.cadhistory.net > > > > The Engineering Design Revolution > > www.cadhistory.net > > The Engineering Design Revolution. The People, Companies and > > Computer Systems That Changed Forever the Practice of > > Engineering. By. David E. Weisberg > > Looks interesting. Thanks a lot for bringing this up. > > > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, > > Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of > > primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study > > this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers? > > I suspect you already know, but just to be sure: > > "The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public > version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active > development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31." > > [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ] > > I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge > page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess). > > -- > Regards, > Tomasz Rola > > -- > ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** > ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** > ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** > ** ** > ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** > > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue May 22 20:12:37 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 20:12:37 -0500 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> On 05/22/2018 05:16 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Dang-nabbit. Just a few weeks ago I decided I needed to move away from Eudora. > I uninstalled Office 2003 and bought a subscription to Office 365 and began > the search for a tool to move all my Eudora 7.1.0.9 email archives to Outlook PST. > They went to office 365 at work, it is absolutely awful. I refuse to use their ghastly bloated web portal, so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is awfully slow. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages when I start it up. At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop servers and it works fine. Jon From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 22 20:55:17 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 21:55:17 -0400 Subject: SMECC Museum PROJECT needs to buy or trade for or beg for the HP hand Held (700 series? help?) that was phone and a computer.... the early ones and also the later Win CE ones.... also need ad materials promo videos... anything related to spice display up... please drop note off list to us. thanks Ed# Message-ID: <1638ab51ed0-c96-b6fe@webjas-vac079.srv.aolmail.net> Sent SMECC Museum PROJECT needs to buy or trade for or beg for the HP hand Held (700 series? help?) that was phone and a computer.... the early ones and also the later Win CE ones.... also need ad materials promo videos... anything related to spice display up... please drop note off list to us. thanks Ed# AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 22 21:05:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 22:05:55 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1638abedfc5-c8f-af38@webjas-vad251.srv.aolmail.net> Adrian ... That is great to hear! Any chance of a site photo? Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Tuesday, May 22, 2018 Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: I used to be site engineer at A Well Known British Newspaper printers, they have those little DGs controlling part of the press process. This was back in 2004, I was down there again last year to fix some old HP servers and those little DGs are still going strong. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 22 May 2018 at 12:17, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > how many sections to it? CHM has one too but one less section than > ours... Ed# www.smecc.org > > In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 > > From: Ed Sharpe > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? > > computer? > > > > While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data > > General ...odd? computer? > > I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# > > ? > > ? > > "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ > DG10_1-300x227.jpg > > " > > > > > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. > > Michael Thompson > From cube1 at charter.net Tue May 22 22:53:44 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 22:53:44 -0500 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20180522221825.AC602273BF@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522221825.AC602273BF@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <9774734d-fef4-46fc-3468-cee8cf91983e@charter.net> On 5/22/2018 5:18 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > At 09:31 AM 5/22/2018, Jay Jaeger via cctalk wrote: >> I still have an Intergraph IP2000 workstation (with software loaded), >> install media (but not license keys to load it) and Intergraph disk >> controllers, high speed concentrators (pre-Ethernet) and ethernet >> controllers. > > Did you get that from Nicolet or ETC? I think I was once offered > a workstation like that but I forget which Madison friend offered it. > > - John > > Neither. Wisconsin DOT, Superior office (if I recall correctly), via State of Wisconsin surplus. Two huge screens along with, but I only have one hooked up. Haven't run it in years, though. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue May 22 18:44:32 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 22 May 2018 19:44:32 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? Message-ID: > > Date: Mon, 21 May 2018 21:01:59 -0400 > From: Michael Thompson > Subject: Re: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General > ...odd? computer? > The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. > > Michael Thompson > > I put a picture of the one at RICM here: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/data-general-desktop-generation/DG_Desktop_Generation.jpg Going from left to right: QIC tape drive, dual floppies, disk drive, card expansion, CPU, and power supply. We have the monitor, keyboard, and printer for it too. Next time I am in the warehouse I will take pictures of the serial/model number tags of everything. -- Michael Thompson From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed May 23 02:28:26 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:28:26 +0100 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: <1638abedfc5-c8f-af38@webjas-vad251.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1638abedfc5-c8f-af38@webjas-vad251.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1ACAE59B-3541-4306-B423-096CAFE7D3D5@gmail.com> > On 23 May 2018, at 03:05, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > Adrian ... That is great to hear! Any chance of a site photo? Sadly not, because of the nature of the site there?s no pictures allowed. A > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Tuesday, May 22, 2018 Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I used to be site engineer at A Well Known British Newspaper printers, they > have those little DGs controlling part of the press process. This was back > in 2004, I was down there again last year to fix some old HP servers and > those little DGs are still going strong. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > On 22 May 2018 at 12:17, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> how many sections to it? CHM has one too but one less section than >> ours... Ed# www.smecc.org >> >> In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >>> >>> Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 >>> From: Ed Sharpe >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? >>> computer? >>> >>> While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data >>> General ...odd? computer? >>> I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# >>> ? >>> ? >>> "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ >> DG10_1-300x227.jpg >>> " >>> >>> >> The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. >> >> Michael Thompson >> > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Wed May 23 04:18:46 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 02:18:46 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer Message-ID: Looks neat, anyone have one of these things they'd sell me? I'm in the US Southwest, can ship or travel a bit. Regards, Kevin From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 23 06:53:36 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 07:53:36 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? computer? In-Reply-To: <1ACAE59B-3541-4306-B423-096CAFE7D3D5@gmail.com> References: <1ACAE59B-3541-4306-B423-096CAFE7D3D5@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1638cd8e917-c93-c344@webjas-vac183.srv.aolmail.net> OK always,worth checking! ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 23 May 2018, at 03:05, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > Adrian ... That is great to hear! Any chance of a site photo? Sadly not, because of the nature of the site there?s no pictures allowed. A > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Tuesday, May 22, 2018 Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I used to be site engineer at A Well Known British Newspaper printers, they > have those little DGs controlling part of the press process. This was back > in 2004, I was down there again last year to fix some old HP servers and > those little DGs are still going strong. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > On 22 May 2018 at 12:17, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > >> how many sections to it? CHM has one too but one less section than >> ours... Ed# www.smecc.org >> >> In a message dated 5/22/2018 12:34:42 AM US Mountain Standard Time, >> cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> >> >>> >>> Date: Sun, 20 May 2018 18:04:00 -0400 >>> From: Ed Sharpe >>> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >>> Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? >>> computer? >>> >>> While? in the warehouse I ran across this strange modernistic? Data >>> General ...odd? computer? >>> I do not remember buying it!? ?Ed# >>> ? >>> ? >>> "https://www.smythretail.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/ >> DG10_1-300x227.jpg >>> " >>> >>> >> The RICM has one, but it is not on the WWW site. >> >> Michael Thompson >> > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lars at nocrew.org Wed May 23 00:46:25 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 05:46:25 +0000 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: (Michael Thompson via cctech's message of "Tue, 22 May 2018 19:44:32 -0400") References: Message-ID: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Michael Thompson wrote: > I put a picture of the one at RICM here: > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/data-general-desktop-generation/DG_Desktop_Generation.jpg > > Going from left to right: QIC tape drive, dual floppies, disk drive, > card expansion, CPU, and power supply. We have the monitor, keyboard, > and printer for it too. This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. It seems quite pleasant. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed May 23 05:32:26 2018 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 06:32:26 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: It could be the Intel 8086 version. I need to look at the serial/model number tags. Sent from my iPhone > On May 23, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Michael Thompson wrote: >> I put a picture of the one at RICM here: >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/data-general-desktop-generation/DG_Desktop_Generation.jpg >> >> Going from left to right: QIC tape drive, dual floppies, disk drive, >> card expansion, CPU, and power supply. We have the monitor, keyboard, >> and printer for it too. > > This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? > > I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. > It seems quite pleasant. From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 23 06:44:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 07:44:13 -0400 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1638cd0524d-c94-451d@webjas-vac207.srv.aolmail.net> OK if you hear of any monitors or keyboards,please let us knowl! Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 Michael Thompson via cctech wrote: It could be the Intel 8086 version. I need to look at the serial/model number tags. Sent from my iPhone > On May 23, 2018, at 1:46 AM, Lars Brinkhoff wrote: > > Michael Thompson wrote: >> I put a picture of the one at RICM here: >> http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/data-general-desktop-generation/DG_Desktop_Generation.jpg >> >> Going from left to right: QIC tape drive, dual floppies, disk drive, >> card expansion, CPU, and power supply. We have the monitor, keyboard, >> and printer for it too. > > This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? > > I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. > It seems quite pleasant. From mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de Wed May 23 07:35:56 2018 From: mail at waldemar-brodkorb.de (Waldemar Brodkorb) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 14:35:56 +0200 Subject: Digital VT420 repair? Message-ID: <20180523123556.GV2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Hi, after my Micro PDP11/83 boots up, I like to connect a Digital VT420 to the console port. This worked approx. 10 years ago. Now when I poweron the VT420 I get no message on the screen. The f3 key doesn't give me the configuration menu. Is it broken? Does it have some invalid configuration in NVRAM and can be resetted? I tried changing brightness and contrast, no change. Is it normal that the right LED is always on? See the picture. https://debug.openadk.org/pdp11/vt420.jpg I tried with and without serial connection to another system. Thanks for any advice, Waldemar From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed May 23 08:04:08 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:04:08 -0400 Subject: Digital VT420 repair? In-Reply-To: <20180523123556.GV2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> References: <20180523123556.GV2510@waldemar-brodkorb.de> Message-ID: when you power it on, the keyboard light should activate, the screen should display the initialization graphic pattern, print wait on the screen and then beep. My 420 is a little dimmer than I'd like it to be, I assume there is a fix for that internally (read the manuals), but if you're not even getting the beep nor the keyboard light you have bigger issues than I. Bill On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 8:35 AM, Waldemar Brodkorb via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > > > after my Micro PDP11/83 boots up, I like to connect a Digital VT420 > to the console port. This worked approx. 10 years ago. Now when I > poweron the VT420 I get no message on the screen. The f3 key doesn't > give me the configuration menu. > > Is it broken? Does it have some invalid configuration in NVRAM and > can be resetted? > I tried changing brightness and contrast, no change. > Is it normal that the right LED is always on? See the picture. > https://debug.openadk.org/pdp11/vt420.jpg > > I tried with and without serial connection to another system. > > Thanks for any advice, > Waldemar > From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Wed May 23 09:28:40 2018 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:28:40 -0500 (CDT) Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is awfully slow. Sometimes it > takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages when I start it up. > > At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop servers and it > works fine. Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things really exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back. I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, 16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of eMail. It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried to send the move message to google. I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to continue using a client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better. What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just not designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living? Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in advance for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up my time and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and use gmail". Cheers! - JP From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 23 09:51:34 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 07:51:34 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> There are some that a recycler has been trying to sell on eBay. However, they need a special mouse and keyboard and that seller has none. alan > On May 23, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk wrote: > > Looks neat, anyone have one of these things they'd sell me? I'm in > the US Southwest, can ship or travel a bit. > > Regards, > Kevin From jfoust at threedee.com Wed May 23 10:01:24 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:01:24 -0500 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <20180522233752.GB5843@tau1.ceti.pl> References: <20180522233752.GB5843@tau1.ceti.pl> Message-ID: <20180523150245.EF722273B0@mx1.ezwind.net> At 09:31 PM 5/20/2018, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently >Martin Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of >Hank Christianson's MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system. I supported MovieBYU 3D object import/export in my 3D conversion tool, InterChange. Although it didn't have any commercial appeal, it did impress the BYU grads at Viewpoint Datalabs. I look forward to seeing more emulated and virtual machine recreations of old software situations. You should be able to run an old environment easily on a desktop or even in a web browser. I think they're educational for students of today and tomorrow. Is that MovieBYU code on the web somewhere? At 06:37 PM 5/22/2018, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: > "The BRL-CAD source code repository is the oldest known public > version-controlled codebase in the world that's still under active > development, dating back to 1983-12-16 00:10:31." >[ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRL-CAD ] > >I could not verify this claim, because I could not load SourceForge >page before my patience ran out (thank you, Javascript, I guess). I remember ordering BRL-CAD source and manuals, perhaps directly from them in the late 1980s. It was massive even back then. - John From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 23 10:46:32 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:46:32 -0600 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Iorc, the mice are sun compatable, but that may just be for the IDT workstation. I have a recollection that they are also compatable with the Series 4, 5 and 5e I/O boards. I know a guy that I used to work with there that will know for sure. I'll ask him. He still has a series 5e in service... Warner On Wed, May 23, 2018, 8:51 AM Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > There are some that a recycler has been trying to sell on eBay. However, > they need a special mouse and keyboard and that seller has none. > > alan > > > On May 23, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Looks neat, anyone have one of these things they'd sell me? I'm in > > the US Southwest, can ship or travel a bit. > > > > Regards, > > Kevin > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 23 10:47:45 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:47:45 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On 5/23/18 7:51 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > they need a special mouse and keyboard You can run them headless, so they aren't completely useless w/o the keyboard. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed May 23 10:49:53 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:49:53 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/23/2018 08:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with > both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things > really exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with > TBird in the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back. I don't think this was a thread hijack attempt at all. You're parroting things I said on Twitter about Eudora's source code release and what it might mean for Thunderbird or some of their users. > I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, > 16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their > professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of > eMail. I've got about 1/6th of that in IMAP spread across 1,118 folders. > It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between > 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - > dozens of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's > a lot of ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be > pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried > to send the move message to google. How are you interfacing with Gmail? IMAP or something else. ? I think Thunderbird supports interfacing with Gmail in another protocol. I may be wrong. > I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to continue using a > client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better. AGREED!!! > What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just > not designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living? I don't know. I too wonder if there's another option. Hence why I'm hoping that Eudora's source code release & license will help this situation. > Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in > advance for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up > my time and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and > use gmail". ?\_(?)_/? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 23 10:54:37 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:54:37 -0600 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:46 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/23/18 7:51 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > > they need a special mouse and keyboard > > You can run them headless, so they aren't completely useless w/o the > keyboard. > You do need a serial port for that. On boot, the boot roms print both places, though you may need to pull the color graphics card if the defaults have been changed. If you buy one, let me know. Somewhere I have the field service manual from when I worked there... Warner > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 23 10:58:59 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:58:59 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <2fd633f0-d108-a5bb-36b4-ff2cc22a936f@snowmoose.com> You are correct. I misremembered this section from https://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/solace/ > > > Why don't Sun keyboards work? What about mice? > > None of the Sun keyboards will work with the Solbourne and vice versa. > At best they won't work; at worst you might short something, depending > on the model. In addition to different signaling, the Solbourne > keyboards have different scan codes and earlier ones have more keys as > well. > > The Sun-3 optical mouse (with the RJ-11 plug) can connect to the > "Cherry" Solbourne 102691 keyboard and will work, butneeds adjustment > due > to the lower resolution. > On 5/23/18 8:46 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > Iorc, the mice are sun compatable,? but that may just be for the IDT > workstation. I have a recollection that they are also compatable with > the Series 4, 5 and 5e I/O boards. I know a guy that I used to work > with there that will know for sure. I'll ask him. He still has a > series 5e in service... > > Warner > > On Wed, May 23, 2018, 8:51 AM Alan Perry via cctalk > > wrote: > > There are some that a recycler has been trying to sell on eBay. > However, they need a special mouse and keyboard and that seller > has none. > > alan > > > On May 23, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > Looks neat, anyone have one of these things they'd sell me?? I'm in > > the US Southwest, can ship or travel a bit. > > > > Regards, > > Kevin > From aperry at snowmoose.com Wed May 23 11:02:50 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:02:50 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <053a01ff-496c-5a87-aa33-94d66e100132@snowmoose.com> On 5/23/18 8:54 AM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, May 23, 2018, 9:46 AM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > >> >> On 5/23/18 7:51 AM, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: >>> they need a special mouse and keyboard >> You can run them headless, so they aren't completely useless w/o the >> keyboard. >> > You do need a serial port for that. On boot, the boot roms print both > places, though you may need to pull the color graphics card if the defaults > have been changed. > > If you buy one, let me know. Somewhere I have the field service manual from > when I worked there... Would it cover the S4100? I have wanting to get one just for the Panasonic SPARC processor. Does the S4100 support a serial console? alan > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 23 11:03:18 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 11:03:18 -0500 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5B0590C6.3080107@pico-systems.com> On 05/23/2018 09:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform. It is awfully >> slow. Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages >> when I start it up. >> >> At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and >> pop servers and it works fine. > > Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how > impressed I am with both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's > release, I find these things really exciting for our > hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in > the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back. > > I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, > 2.6GHz i7, 16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via > IMAP from Google (their professional company service > thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of eMail. > > It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around > between 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball > for 2-3 seconds - dozens of times a day. And I just can't > work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of ruddy eMail, but > it's a monster of a laptop and it should be pulling/moving > on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried > to send the move message to google. > > I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to > continue using a client like this - but TBird just isn't > getting any better. > > What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is > Thunderbird just not designed for large mail sets for > people who actually work for a living? > You should keep the Inbox down to a few hundred messages at the most. I create a bunch of Inbox_2017 type folders and move older Inbox items to it every couple months. All sorting is done in memory, and if any folder gets too big, it starts to thrash. I do the same for Sent and Local folders. Also, make sure you clear out your Junk and Trash folders every couple weeks. There is an "extension" called "Extra Folder Columns" that adds total messages and a megabytes column to each folder, so you can see when it needs clearing out. Not sure if this is available for your version, but I find it very useful. I keep all (retained) email locally, I don't trust any outside service. So, I can see old messages even without the net. I have mail going back to 1997. I DO have an SSD, that really helps. The only thing I find slow is when I go to delete 4000+ emails from the Trash folder. That can take a minute, but I only do it every week, or less often. When I open Thunderbird and download 300+ emails at a session, it takes about 15 seconds to run all the message filter rules on them. I think that is GREAT, let the computer do work so I don't HAVE to. And, once the automatic filtering is trained, it works AMAZINGLY well at culling all the spam and almost NEVER puts a good message in the Trash or Junk folder. That, right THERE is why I use Thunderbird! I do have about a dozen hand-written filters for stuff that repeatedly gets through the automatic filtering. As for the slowness at work with Office 365, that is clearly a Microsoft issue, everybody sees the same awful performance, no matter what interface they use to access it. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 23 11:23:07 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:23:07 +0200 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2018 at 16:28, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with > both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things really > exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with TBird in > the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back. Ditto. > I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, 16GB > RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their > professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of > eMail. > It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between > 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens > of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of > ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be > pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried > to send the move message to google. > I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to continue using a > client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better. I actually quite like the Gmail interface, and I've been using it for 14Y now, but I'd like a fast usable local client. I travel a lot, and I don't always have Internet access on the road. A proper responsive local email client, where I could read, comment, and post it all when I get to my destination, would be great. T'bird is no longer it, alas. It was for years, and I spent time and effort moving my email archive 1991-2004 to it. But as you say, it's sluglike in the extreme with Gmail. > What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just not > designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living? I do wonder myself. I now use Claws at work. It's quicker. I don't like it, but it does the job. > Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in advance > for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up my time > and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and use gmail". I've left the CC on. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From aek at bitsavers.org Wed May 23 11:25:37 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 09:25:37 -0700 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <37c285f9-4ea0-b427-cd4a-6a4a7303a3df@bitsavers.org> On 5/23/18 8:54 AM, Warner Losh wrote: > > > Somewhere I have the field service manual from when I worked there... > > Warner > If it's different from what I have on bitsavers, i'd like to scan it. From rp at servium.ch Wed May 23 12:14:04 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 19:14:04 +0200 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 4:51 PM, Alan Perry via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There are some that a recycler has been trying to sell on eBay. However, > they need a special mouse and keyboard and that seller has none. > I bought one from said recycler a while ago, have been looking for a suitable keyboard/mouse ever since. It's a very nice machine, and interesting in that it is not just a carbon copy of a Sun machine like most other clones. > > alan > > > On May 23, 2018, at 2:18 AM, Kevin Bowling via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Looks neat, anyone have one of these things they'd sell me? I'm in > > the US Southwest, can ship or travel a bit. > > > > Regards, > > Kevin > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 23 12:30:38 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:30:38 -0700 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> On 05/23/2018 08:49 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > How are you interfacing with Gmail?? IMAP or something else.? ?? I think > Thunderbird supports interfacing with Gmail in another protocol.? I may > be wrong. Gmail also allows for a POP3 interface. I'd originally used the suggested IMAP interface and then had a bit of a net outage. I discovered that I had no copies of my inbox messages--apparently, they resided on Google's servers. So I went to the POP interface, where the message is deleted from the server when I receive it. Otherwise, for me, it's been a progression of email clients. elm, pine, eudora, Courier, Pegasus and finally Thunderbird, which has worked passably well to date. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 23 12:40:52 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 10:40:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <053a01ff-496c-5a87-aa33-94d66e100132@snowmoose.com> from Alan Perry via cctalk at "May 23, 18 09:02:50 am" Message-ID: <201805231740.w4NHeqTM16253102@floodgap.com> > Does the S4100 support a serial console? Yes, it should. I forget how to set this up because mine weren't headless, but they do. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- It's tradition, that makes it okay. -- Weird Al, "Weasel Stomping Day" ----- From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 23 14:24:48 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 13:24:48 -0600 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <201805231740.w4NHeqTM16253102@floodgap.com> References: <053a01ff-496c-5a87-aa33-94d66e100132@snowmoose.com> <201805231740.w4NHeqTM16253102@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 23, 2018, 11:40 AM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Does the S4100 support a serial console? > > Yes, it should. I forget how to set this up because mine weren't headless, > but they do. The boot roms are basically from the same sources... but I think that you may need a monitor and keyboard to set that up... Warner > > From robert626001 at gmail.com Wed May 23 17:31:37 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 17:31:37 -0500 Subject: HP 9000-236 (9836CU) video cable. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks, chaps. Tony: That pinout is great, many thanks! It will help me if I have to build a cable. I don't suppose that there's a part number on yours? If there are any for sale the p/n might help me find one. Rico: If I have any HP-UX it will be on one of several SC80 hard drives - I have no removable media. I don't know about the 200 series - my 9816 has no keyboard and I haven't even begun to think about solving that problem. Robert On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 12:07 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 5:56 PM, Robert via cctalk > wrote: >> My latest score is an HP 9836CU (so, color with a 68010 CPU and HP-UX >> support) with a 98625A disk interface. I got the matching monitor, but >> I didn't get the video cable. >> >> Googling turns up that it's a very proprietary interface, but I could >> find nothing about the cable. It's a 15 pin D-sub at each end and I'm >> hoping that it's just straight through, but have been unable to verify >> that. >> >> Does anybody know? Or Is there anybody that has a 9836C or CU and >> would be willing to examine the video cable, please? > > The original cable has moulded connectors so I can't examine the > internal wiring. > > It _is_ straight-through electrically, but there is a catch. There are 3 > coaxial cables (and some plain wires) in there. The coaxial cables, > I guess 75 ohm characteristic impedance, carry the video signals. > They seem to be wired : > > Red : centre to 12, shield to 13 > Green : centre to 10, shield to 2 > Blue : centre to 9, shield to 1. > > The other pins are, as far as I know, plain wires. There is probably > an overall shield, grounded to pin 8 > > The pinout, AFAIK, is : > 1 : Blue shield > 2 : Green shield > 3 : ground > 4 : ground > 5: N/C > 6 : ground > 7 : +12V (computer to monitor, to cause the latter to turn on) > 8 : ground (overall shield?) > > 9 : Blue > 10 : Green > 11 : HSync > 12 : Red > 13 : Red shield > 14 : VBlank > 15 : VSync > > Syncs and blanking are TTL levels, the video signal are current > (not voltage) levels, sourced by the monitor and sunk by the > computer. > > -tony From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed May 23 20:53:09 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 19:53:09 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/23/2018 11:30 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Gmail also allows for a POP3 interface. I /think/ I knew that. But I obviously forgot it. I was actually trying to remember if Gmail had something more akin to ActiveSync or something else that ran over top of HTTPS that email clients could use in lieu of IMAP or POP3. ? searching ? Yep, Gmail supports Google Sync. Link - What is Google Sync? - https://support.google.com/a/answer/135937?hl=en I was sort of wondering if you were using that, or something else like that. Or if it was IMAP / POP3. > I'd originally used the suggested IMAP interface and then had a > bit of a net outage. I discovered that I had no copies of my inbox > messages--apparently, they resided on Google's servers. So I went to > the POP interface, where the message is deleted from the server when I > receive it. Yep, IMAP is server based, and great for multiple devices trying to access the same mailbox. The thing that you didn't do was configure your email client to retain a local copy of all of your email. (I proactively did that years ago.) > Otherwise, for me, it's been a progression of email clients. elm, > pine, eudora, Courier, Pegasus and finally Thunderbird, which has worked > passably well to date. I don't think I've used Courier myself. I may have to check it out. Is it just another IMAP / POP3 / SMTP style email client like Eudora & Thunderbird? Or does it have something else to offer? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 23 21:11:58 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 20:11:58 -0600 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <2fd633f0-d108-a5bb-36b4-ff2cc22a936f@snowmoose.com> References: <3A3A48C1-09D5-4528-9D90-11C5C43660C7@snowmoose.com> <2fd633f0-d108-a5bb-36b4-ff2cc22a936f@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Alan Perry wrote: > > You are correct. I misremembered this section from > https://www.floodgap.com/retrobits/solace/ > > Why don't Sun keyboards work? What about mice? None of the Sun keyboards > will work with the Solbourne and vice versa. At best they won't work; at > worst you might short something, depending on the model. In addition to > different signaling, the Solbourne keyboards have different scan codes and > earlier ones have more keys as well. > > The Sun-3 optical mouse (with the RJ-11 plug) can connect to the "Cherry" > Solbourne 102691 keyboard and will work, but needs adjustment > due > to the lower resolution. > > I talked with my friend who worked at Solbourne longer than I did. This isn't quite right. The connectors are different, but the signalling is the same. You need a custom adapter, though, so you get the right signals on the right pins. Solbourne specifically made their keyboards incompatible with Suns at the connector level to force people to buy keyboards from Solbourne, but used the same basic parts as Sun keyboards to save on development costs. While the big battleship keyboards have extra keys, the scan codes for the basic keys are the same (though he cautioned me that was only his memory, but based on how fanatical they were about being Sun compatible). After he told me that, I recalled that I found an odd cable a few years ago in my big box of cables that could have been such an adapter, though I don't have it any more. He suggested using the SE guide that was on bitkeepers to make an adapter. I went looking for special keyboard maps for the Solbourne, and all I found was Tom LaStrange's name in twm from the updates he did while working at Solbroune, so maybe my friend is right. I'd have expected to find that they would have been in X11R4 or X11R5, but no dice. The CG30 card was a simple clone of sun's cg3 dumb frame buffer. The graphics card had to be 100% code compatible with Sun, so it would be odd to have different. I also couldn't find anything in my .x* files, even though I had OI specific resources I deleted in 2010... He confirmed the mouse thing was 100% correct. He used that setup for several years. Though I was incorrect: he gave all his Solbourne stuff to a local computer museum that seems to have disappeared... Warner From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 23 22:41:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 20:41:41 -0700 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> On 05/23/2018 06:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I /think/ I knew that.? But I obviously forgot it. pop.googlemail.com port 995. > Yep, Gmail supports Google Sync. > > Link - What is Google Sync? > ?- https://support.google.com/a/answer/135937?hl=en I'd prefer to keep my own messages and just use gmail as a server. > I don't think I've used Courier myself.? Courser used to be called Calypso. One of the older (1996) Windows clients. Got passed alsong until it was discontinued by its current owner, Rose City Software around 2009. There's still a Yahoo community for it. But it's 32-bit Windows only, AFAIK; Calypso was 16-bit. At one point, RC released source, but I don't know if any copies were preserved. It was useful back in the day because it allowed multiple accounts, like most email clients do today. But it's old stuff; I wouldn't bother. Pegasus/Mercury is still around: http://www.pmail.com/, but I don't know much about the current (2017) release. I used it mostly because it could import Calypso/Courier mailboxes directly. From Pegasus to Thunderbird was a very easy move. When I moved my workload from Windows to Linux, I just brought along the Windows mail profile content and I was up and running in minutes. It's strange; although I still have some archives, I don't recall what I used for an email reader when I was doing email with UUCP. I do recall that it was awkward--it required a separate utility to handle MIME-encoded content. Folks hadn't discovered email with HTML content yet--those were simpler days. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed May 23 22:59:29 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 20:59:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: from Warner Losh via cctalk at "May 23, 18 08:11:58 pm" Message-ID: <201805240359.w4O3xT9N25493570@floodgap.com> > I talked with my friend who worked at Solbourne longer than I did. Oooh. Dieter, maybe? > This isn't quite right. The connectors are different, but the signalling is > the same. You need a custom adapter, though, so you get the right signals > on the right pins. Solbourne specifically made their keyboards incompatible > with Suns at the connector level to force people to buy keyboards from > Solbourne, but used the same basic parts as Sun keyboards to save on > development costs. While the big battleship keyboards have extra keys, the > scan codes for the basic keys are the same (though he cautioned me that was > only his memory, but based on how fanatical they were about being Sun > compatible). After he told me that, I recalled that I found an odd cable a > few years ago in my big box of cables that could have been such an adapter, > though I don't have it any more. He suggested using the SE guide that was > on bitkeepers to make an adapter. Well, that's good to know. I'll update that section if you can get the name as the source (since most of the available documentation says different). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- .signature violation (core dumped) ----------------------------------------- From imp at bsdimp.com Wed May 23 23:21:22 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 22:21:22 -0600 Subject: WTB: Solbourne computer In-Reply-To: <201805240359.w4O3xT9N25493570@floodgap.com> References: <201805240359.w4O3xT9N25493570@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 9:59 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > I talked with my friend who worked at Solbourne longer than I did. > > Oooh. Dieter, maybe? Yes. > This isn't quite right. The connectors are different, but the signalling > is > > the same. You need a custom adapter, though, so you get the right signals > > on the right pins. Solbourne specifically made their keyboards > incompatible > > with Suns at the connector level to force people to buy keyboards from > > Solbourne, but used the same basic parts as Sun keyboards to save on > > development costs. While the big battleship keyboards have extra keys, > the > > scan codes for the basic keys are the same (though he cautioned me that > was > > only his memory, but based on how fanatical they were about being Sun > > compatible). After he told me that, I recalled that I found an odd cable > a > > few years ago in my big box of cables that could have been such an > adapter, > > though I don't have it any more. He suggested using the SE guide that was > > on bitkeepers to make an adapter. > > Well, that's good to know. I'll update that section if you can get the > name as the source (since most of the available documentation says > different). > Right. I'm unsure. He's a solid enough for me to try it, but without confirmation, I'm not sure changing the docs is a wise idea. Warner From silent700 at gmail.com Wed May 23 23:31:15 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 23:31:15 -0500 Subject: VCF East Photo Thread Message-ID: Many are appearing on the VCFed mailing list already. Here are mine, with separate sets for the non-computer (but still interesting) stuff: http://silent700.blogspot.com/2018/05/vcf-east-2018.html I had a good time and recommend the show to all who can make it out there. -j From cclist at sydex.com Wed May 23 10:47:14 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:47:14 -0700 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> On 05/22/2018 10:46 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctech wrote: > This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? > > I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. > It seems quite pleasant. > As I recall--and please correct me--DG was extremely hostile to the notion of third parties incorporating the MicroNova in any of their products. The same situation applied to the Fairchild 9440 MicroFlame, which was essentially a clone of the MicroNova architecture. I recall that Fairchild didn't want to talk to you (I tried) if you weren't in defense or aerospace or the like. The basic idea of the 4x16 bit register 16-bit architecture was copied to some extent by National Semi in their multichip IMP-16 and single-chip PACE and 9440, but it was mostly in the "spirit of a Nova"--performance wasn't all that great in comparison to the current 8 bit MPUs. Weren't the MCBA business applications originally written in Nova BASIC? --Chuck From paul at mcjones.org Wed May 23 10:49:45 2018 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 08:49:45 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> Randy, Although there are people interested in collecting historic software (especially source code), I don?t know of a central place to discuss it. I?ve collected the original IBM 704 Fortran/Fortran II compiler, the original IBM 709x Lisp II interpreter, and various other things (see http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects). As you build up your collection of CAD-related source code, I would encourage you to offer copies to the Computer History Museum (http://www.computerhistory.org/artifactdonation/) for long-term preservation. Paul McJones http://www.mcjones.org/dustydecks/ On May 21, 2018, Randy Dawson wrote: > For a while I have collected bits of legacy CAD, most recently Martin Hepperle sent me what I believe is the last version of Hank Christianson's MOVIE.BYU, a FORTRAN based 3D modeling and animation system. > I also have experimented with the original Berkley SPICE, also written in FORTRAN. > ... > My question is, did any of the source code for these systems, Applicon, Auto-Trol, Calma, ComputerVision, thousands of lines of primarily FORTRAN ever make it out, where we could read and study this original body of mathematical geometry done on computers? > > I know we are primarily a hardware group here, but where is the interest in the software discussed? > > Randy From lproven at gmail.com Wed May 23 11:18:11 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 23 May 2018 18:18:11 +0200 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> References: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 May 2018 at 17:47, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > The same situation applied to the Fairchild 9440 MicroFlame, which was > essentially a clone of the MicroNova architecture. This led me to some fascinating stuff. Thanks! The CPU: http://www.cpushack.com/2017/11/14/cpu-of-the-day-fairchild-f9445-the-microflame-flames-out/ The customer, and their role in saving Pioneer 10, helping NASA for free: http://www.strobedata.com/home/pioneer10.html -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From abuse at cabal.org.uk Thu May 24 07:51:15 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 14:51:15 +0200 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20180524125115.5gkcuuclu565avow@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, May 23, 2018 at 09:28:40AM -0500, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: [...] > It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between 'folders' > often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - dozens of times a > day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's a lot of ruddy eMail, > but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be pulling/moving on the SSD > when it's getting stuck before it's even tried to send the move message to > google. There are two parts to this. The first is that Thunderbird is a bloated monstrosity ejected when Mozilla collapsed under its own weight and went supernova. It's had years of feature creep since. The second is that Google would rather you use the web interface where they can show you ads so the IMAP service is subtly nonstandard to confuse your client. [...] > What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just not > designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living? MacOS includes a perfectly good GUI mail client. It is even aware that GMail is not a standard IMAP/SMTP mail service and works round its quirks. From lproven at gmail.com Thu May 24 08:55:02 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 15:55:02 +0200 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180524125115.5gkcuuclu565avow@mooli.org.uk> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <20180524125115.5gkcuuclu565avow@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 24 May 2018 at 14:51, Peter Corlett via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There are two parts to this. The first is that Thunderbird is a bloated > monstrosity ejected when Mozilla collapsed under its own weight and went > supernova. It's had years of feature creep since. Up to a point, Lord Corlett. It is a bit, but on the other hand, it does actually work and work quite well most of the time. (An as-yet untraced bug prevents me using it at $JOB.) I've tried Evolution, Sylpheed, Balsa, KMail, GNUmail and a number of others. All were lacking functionality I consider important, such as being able to fetch mail in the background while I am reading/writing. I currently use Claws. It's clunky but functional. It can't do simple stuff like remembering anyone I ever write to in the address book, though. > The second is that Google > would rather you use the web interface where they can show you ads so the IMAP > service is subtly nonstandard to confuse your client. I never see 'em. I've been routinely running ad-blockers for about 15 years or more. It's about *the* best browser-based email I've ever seen, though, and I've tried most of them since Elonex HTMaiL in 1995. Most suck. A few are OK. Gmail is actually _good_. They're dropping useful features all the time, though. > MacOS includes a perfectly good GUI mail client. It is even aware that GMail is > not a standard IMAP/SMTP mail service and works round its quirks. It's OK. Its facelifts have not improved actual functionality. The thread mode is weird and I never fully understood it. I can't mark mails as read/unread, flagged/unflagged, etc with a simple click as I can in T'bird, betraying its mid-1980s origins. And of course I can't use it on my Linux laptops. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From wrm at dW.co.za Thu May 24 02:55:27 2018 From: wrm at dW.co.za (Wouter de Waal) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 09:55:27 +0200 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20180524095400.092a22c0@nicadae.dw.co.za> > >For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to >allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what >was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. >It's finally done! Yay! Now someone can fix the bugs :-) (6.2 here. Massive archive of emails. The search function is superb). W From cctalk at snarc.net Thu May 24 07:09:08 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 08:09:08 -0400 Subject: VCF East Photo Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Many are appearing on the VCFed mailing list already To clarify: that's the VCF/Mid-Atlantic list. The only VCFed-wide discussion board is VC Forum. :) > I had a good time and recommend the show to all who can make it out there Thanks! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 24 11:47:00 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 10:47:00 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <20180524125115.5gkcuuclu565avow@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <0ce7264e-50da-7c74-d6dc-77a6c78ab449@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/24/2018 07:55 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > It's about the best browser-based email I've ever seen, though, and I've > tried most of them since Elonex HTMaiL in 1995. Most suck. A few are OK. > Gmail is actually good. They're dropping useful features all the time, > though. Gmail's web UI may be the best UX as far as web UIs go. But I find it atrocious compared to a (what I consider to be) a real, fat, MUA running on the client machine. I routinely find myself annoyed (likely worse) and lambasting Gmail monthly, if not weekly. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 24 12:08:11 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 11:08:11 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> Message-ID: <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/23/2018 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd prefer to keep my own messages I do too. > and just use gmail as a server. What sort of server? IMAP, POP3, SMTP, file & printer, fax? I'm asking sort of to be ornery but it does make a difference which you mean in the context of this discussion. > Courser used to be called Calypso. One of the older (1996) Windows > clients. Got passed alsong until it was discontinued by its current > owner, Rose City Software around 2009. There's still a Yahoo community > for it. But it's 32-bit Windows only, AFAIK; Calypso was 16-bit. At one > point, RC released source, but I don't know if any copies were preserved. Hum. I'll have to check it out. (I have an unhealthy habit of playing with software / servers / infrastructure from the late '90s and early '00s. So it sounds like that falls in that sandbox. > It was useful back in the day because it allowed multiple accounts, > like most email clients do today. Now I'm trying to remember. I want to say that Thunderbird has always had multiple account support for as long as I can remember. I naively assume Netscape's email client (part of the Netscape Communicator package) did the same, but I'm not sure. (Insert typical "AssUMe" joke here.) That being said, it may have been that it supported multiple POP3 accounts that all dumped into the same messages tore. (Sub)folders & message filtering rules aside. > But it's old stuff; I wouldn't bother. To each his own. > Pegasus/Mercury is still around: http://www.pmail.com/, but I don't > know much about the current (2017) release. I used it mostly because > it could import Calypso/Courier mailboxes directly. From Pegasus to > Thunderbird was a very easy move. I actually installed a handful of Mercury Mail servers this decade. Some of my clients wanted the advantages of self hosted email on their company Windows server. (It was protected behind my filtering service, and not exposed to the Internet.) Mercury Mail was actually a very price competitive solution for H.I.Y. email. The features that Mercury Mail offered were fairly nice too. It obviously worked with all of the standard POP3 / IMAP / SMTP clients. ? Just hosted locally in house where disk quotas were not an issue. ? It also helped that the clients tended to be remote locations with slow internet connections, thus fast access to a local mail server was GREATLY appreciated when sending attachments to coworkers. I've dabbled with Pegasus in my aforementioned unhealthy hobby. Usually associated with NetWare. By the way, I do like your migration path. ;-) > When I moved my workload from Windows to Linux, I just brought along > the Windows mail profile content and I was up and running in minutes. Yep. I've made a very similar transition. Just years (decade(s)?) ago. I also migrated my from my local mail store (using POP3) to a central IMAP server w/ local client side cache for offline access. Though I've got to say, I think the absolute very BEST online / offline email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino. (I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/ impressed.) > It's strange; although I still have some archives, I don't recall what > I used for an email reader when I was doing email with UUCP. I do > recall that it was awkward--it required a separate utility to handle > MIME-encoded content. Folks hadn't discovered email with HTML content > yet--those were simpler days. ~chuckle~ I'd think the biggest clue would be text vs GUI interface combined with when. I've used UUCP as recently as 18 months ago. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 24 12:27:46 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 11:27:46 -0600 Subject: Lotus Notes and Domino In-Reply-To: <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <8fb8210e-91e8-b298-3271-3e2661244988@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/24/2018 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Though I've got to say, I think the absolute very BEST online / offline > email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino. > ?(I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/ > impressed.) I was EXTREMELY impressed with how well Lotus Notes worked as an email client for Lotus Domino when it came to online / offline use. First: I had Notes configured to replicate my email (DB) off of the Domino server so that I could have access to it even if I was offline. I don't recall how Notes behaved if I transitioned between online / offline in the event of a network (dis)connection. (It rarely happened.) But I was easily able to change the so called "Location" from "Online" to "Offline" (or any other location that I defined) on the fly with absolute minimal impact by clicking a drop down and selecting a different location. The most likely small burp would be if I naively left it in the Online location when starting up without the company VPN connected, thus unable to communicate with the Domino server. In such a case, Notes might take 15 ~ 30 additional seconds to open as it tried to connect before it would give up trying to connect and say "Unable to connect to server, starting in Offline mode." I could easily start the VPN after the fact and switch to "Online" mode and do a Replicate (what Notes termed the Send & Receive). I could easily draft email while offline and it would sit in my outbox waiting for the next time I replicated. IMHO it worked great. Aside: I had this same type of behavior for other non-Mail DBs inside of Notes too. My employer used a LOT of Notes DBs for various things. Vacation planner was a Notes DB. Inventory was a Notes DB. Team documentation repositories were Notes DBs. Each team have a different document repository (Team Room) Notes DB. Different people had different levels of access to different DBs. Further Aside: I could easily enable DB level encryption of the local replica of a Notes DB trivially. I could also turn encryption off or change security level easily. *ALL* of my Notes DBs benefited from these (and more) features; replication, online / offline, encryption, meta data indexing, full text indexing, and many more. Second: The thing that I did with my email that was *SO* impressive to me was that my email DB on my workstation was a replica of my email DB on the Domino server. With the exception that my server replica was < 300 MB (disk quota) and my local workstation replica > 2 GB. ? Yes, the same DB had bidirectional replication between > 2 GB and < 300 MB. This is what amazed me. I configured custom replication between the my workstation and the server such that: 1) Deletes from the server copy were not replicated into my workstation copy. 2) The server copy only maintained messages that were < 30 days old. (I needed to replicate within that window, but 30 days is not a problem.) 3) ALL modifications to the local copy were replicated to the server copy. This allowed me to use my email like I had no disk quota at all. (Based on amount of storage on my workstation.) I could leave all my messages in my mailbox /with/ attachments left in tact. (Many colleagues removed attachments form messages to shrink their inbox. I didn't have that problem.) All the while I was able to stay well under the 300 MB disk quota and stay out of "Mail Jail". As an added bonus, I was able to leverage the company provided web mail interface and access the email that was still on the server (within the 30 day window). Anything I sent / received / marked as (un)read would get replicated into my workstation copy the next time I replicated. In my (not so) humble opinion, Lotus Notes & Domino has got to be, hands down, the absolute BEST replicated email infrastructure that I've ever seen. I do think the UI was fairly ugly and somewhat clunky. That being said, I was able to do compose email / team documents with features that I LONG for in Gmail. In hind sight I would have liked to have a tiny Domino server (which Notes was in some ways) that was an IMAP / SMTP interface for a local copy of Thunderbird. - I think that would have given me the aforementioned features /and/ what I considered to be a better UI. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Thu May 24 15:00:27 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 13:00:27 -0700 Subject: Extracting and viewing the original Mac bitmap fonts today In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c001d3f399$dd38cf30$97aa6d90$@gmail.com> Thanks! Great find. Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Liam Proven via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 10:12 AM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Extracting and viewing the original Mac bitmap fonts today https://medium.com/@bzotto/hidden-sheep-and-mac-typography-archaeology-efce770da76c Complete with easter eggs, source code and samples on Github. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 24 15:30:00 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 13:30:00 -0700 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <36a29568-c2b1-e8dc-f3c4-0c555bbc8787@sydex.com> On 05/24/2018 10:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 05/23/2018 09:41 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> I'd prefer to keep my own messages > > I do too. > >> and just use gmail as a server. > > What sort of server?? IMAP, POP3, SMTP, file & printer, fax? You haven't been paying attention, Grant. I mentioned a bit earlier that I used POP3 with gmail. > Now I'm trying to remember.? I want to say that Thunderbird has always > had multiple account support for as long as I can remember.? I naively > assume Netscape's email client (part of the Netscape Communicator > package) did the same, but I'm not sure.? (Insert typical "AssUMe" joke > here.) Yes, but again, in context, Thunderbird is a newcomer. (Where was it in 1996? (Other than as a wine for cheap drunks, I mean; I'm not aware of any email client called Night Train, but I'm willing to be surprised). --Chuck From mazzinia at tin.it Thu May 24 15:37:24 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 22:37:24 +0200 Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( Message-ID: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> I didn't see it being mentioned here on cctalk :( http://archive.is/dJgyQ but I'm hearing some refugees saying that the chances of the site going back online are not looking good From ben at bensinclair.com Thu May 24 15:55:30 2018 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 15:55:30 -0500 Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( In-Reply-To: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> References: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 3:37 PM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I didn't see it being mentioned here on cctalk :( > There is a new site up at http://irix.cc that's hoping to fill the void. Hopefully it takes off! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ethan at 757.org Thu May 24 16:01:52 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 17:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( In-Reply-To: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> References: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> Message-ID: > I didn't see it being mentioned here on cctalk :( > http://archive.is/dJgyQ > but I'm hearing some refugees saying that the chances of the site going back online are not looking good I just posted my SGI Indigo PSU repair to that site and was planning to copy it over to my personal blog this weekend. Arrgh. I assume archive.org doesn't have the site either since it's dynamicly rendered. Kind of a knee jerk reaction, just send a mass email like every other site does. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 24 16:43:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 15:43:15 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <36a29568-c2b1-e8dc-f3c4-0c555bbc8787@sydex.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <36a29568-c2b1-e8dc-f3c4-0c555bbc8787@sydex.com> Message-ID: <08231cd4-9d6f-5fcc-7b77-24dcea162a53@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/24/2018 02:30 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > You haven't been paying attention, Grant. I mentioned a bit earlier > that I used POP3 with gmail. I have. You mistook my meaning. I was meaning to imply that "gmail as a server" can mean multiple things. As in stating "gmail as a server" by itself is not enough to specify what type of server. I was aware that you were using Gmail as a POP3 server. I also suspect that you are using Gmail as an SMTP server, despite not saying such. > Yes, but again, in context, Thunderbird is a newcomer. (Where was it > in 1996? (Other than as a wine for cheap drunks, I mean; I'm not aware > of any email client called Night Train, but I'm willing to be surprised). I'm fairly certain that Thunderbird's immediate predecessor, Netscape Mail / Communicator existed in '96. I know it existed in the late '90s. (It's my understanding that Thunderbird is a direct descendant of original Netscape source code.) Please forgive me for counting Netscape Mail / Communicator and Mozilla Thunderbird as one project and implying that said project was around in the '90s. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cube1 at charter.net Thu May 24 16:47:51 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 16:47:51 -0500 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <96add2bb-9c1a-e61b-c5d5-8b40fa7a2874@charter.net> On 5/23/2018 9:28 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > > > On Tue, 22 May 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> so I use Thunderbird on a Linux platform.? It is awfully slow. >> Sometimes it takes 5 minutes to download 3 messages when I start it up. >> >> At home I use Thunderbird with standard Linux smtp and pop servers and >> it works fine. > > Apologies to hijack this one (I can't tell you how impressed I am with > both the CHM's efforts and Qualcomm's release, I find these things > really exciting for our hobby) - but I've been having real troubles with > TBird in the last few years and my obstinacy has been holding me back. > > I run Thunderbird on a 2016 MacBoook Pro (Sierra 10.12.6, 2.6GHz i7, > 16GB RAM, internal SSD) where I'm pulling via IMAP from Google (their > professional company service thingy), but maintain a local 24GB cache of > eMail. > > It's slower than molasses in january. Moving eMail around between > 'folders' often has it sit and spin the beachball for 2-3 seconds - > dozens of times a day. And I just can't work out why - I mean, yes, it's > a lot of ruddy eMail, but it's a monster of a laptop and it should be > pulling/moving on the SSD when it's getting stuck before it's even tried > to send the move message to google. > I use Thunderbird, and for the most part it has worked fine. But I use it in a somewhat unusual way. My gmail address forwards to my normal ISP address. I retrieve mail from that using IMAP but I do *not* leave it on the server. Instead, I process the resulting inbox with filters, and distribute the mail to a local folders inbox (named so it floats to the top of the list) and other places (like Classic, for example, in categories depending upon subject). Retrieval is usually fast. However, until I went to the method I use now, the IMAP folder and message management made it painfully slow. My mail profile folder is 10GB, roughly, consisting of 22036 files and 8198 directories. I use the "Quick Folder Move" add on to make managing the email in the inbox that is worthy of filing away relatively painless. JRJ > I _detest_ the gmail interface, I'd really prefer to continue using a > client like this - but TBird just isn't getting any better. > > What am I missing here? Are there better options? Is Thunderbird just > not designed for large mail sets for people who actually work for a living? > > Responses should probably be sent to me directly. And my thanks in > advance for your opinions, my curmudgeonly behaviour is really eating up > my time and I'm hoping there's a reasonable fix beyond "Suck it up and > use gmail". > > Cheers! > > ?- JP > From rickb at bensene.com Thu May 24 11:09:41 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 09:09:41 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> References: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B212@mail.bensene.com> Many moons ago, at Tektronix, I did a stint working in the Scientific Computer Center's Computer-Aided Design Development group. There was a software package, written in FORTRAN (77, I believe) on Tek's Control Data Cyber 73 system running KRONOS, called PIRATE. It was an automated circuit board placer/router. It would take in netlist information, along with information about board geometry and locations of fixed components, along with a library of component information (e.g., IC pinouts and packaging geometry), and generate Gerber photoplotter output, and NC drill tapes. The timeframe I was in the group was around 1977 to 1981 or so. I don't have any of that old code, sadly. But, I figured I'd mention it here, as perhaps maybe somewhere, someone has it. I remember that the first name of the guy that wrote it was Roger, but for the life of me, I can't remember his last name. I recall that Roger was brilliant, and was constantly tweaking the placement and maze-router algorithms to improve the placement and routing performance. It could do complex multi-layer boards, with internal vias, ground planes and power planes, etc. It would be cool if it could be found and archived. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu May 24 16:32:33 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 14:32:33 -0700 Subject: FS: HP 2116C Manual Set Message-ID: Ahoy HP Aficionados! I have for sale here one nice set of documentation for the HP 2116C. There are a total of three original HP binders, each with a multitude of individual documents, as follows: Binder No. 4 HP BASIC (April 1970) HP FORTRAN (April 1970) Small Programs Manual - SIO Teleprinter Driver (LP Compatible) (April 1970) HP ALGOL (April 1970) Symbolic Editor (April 1970) Binder No. 5 12597A-002 Tape Reader Interface Kit Operating and Service Manual (November 1970) 2748A Tape Reader Operating and Service Manual (October 1970) 12531C Buffered Teleprinter Interface Kit Operating and Service Manual (July 1971) Manual of Diagnostics - Alter-Skip Instruction Test (June 1970) - Memory Reference Instruction Test (June 1970) - Shift-Rotate Instruction Test (June 1970) - HP 2116B Low Memory Address Test and HP 2116B High Memory Address Test (January 1971) - Tape Reader Test (January 1971) - Computer Interrupt Diagnostic (June 1970) - HP 2116C Low Memory Pattern Test and HP 2116C High Memory PatternTest (September 1970) - Power Fail Interrupt (February 1970) - General Purpose Register Diagnostic (May 1971) - HP 2116 TTY Test (April 1971) 12566A Microcircuit Interface Computer Interface Kit (December 1968) Binder No. 6 2752A Teleprinter Operating and Service Manual (November 1970) Teletype Corporation Bulletin 310B Vol 1: Technical Manual, 33 Teletypewriter Sets: Receive-Only (RO), Keyboard Send-Receive (KSR), Automatic Send-Receive (ASR) Teletype Corporation Bulletin 310B Vol 2: Technical Manual, 33 Teletypewriter Sets: Keyboard Send-Receive (KSR), Receive-Only (RO), Automatic Send-Receive (ASR) Teletype Corporation Bulletin 1184B: 33 Page Printer Set (ASR, KSR AND RO) Parts I am asking $250 or best offer. As always, please respond directly via e-mail if interested. Thanks! Sellam From cclist at sydex.com Thu May 24 17:54:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 15:54:13 -0700 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <08231cd4-9d6f-5fcc-7b77-24dcea162a53@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <36a29568-c2b1-e8dc-f3c4-0c555bbc8787@sydex.com> <08231cd4-9d6f-5fcc-7b77-24dcea162a53@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <26fec68d-b626-0ad8-ac85-7226b12a81eb@sydex.com> On 05/24/2018 02:43 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I was meaning to imply that "gmail as a server" can mean multiple > things.? As in stating "gmail as a server" by itself is not enough to > I also suspect that you are using Gmail as an SMTP server, despite not > saying such. I'm not entirely sure that I do use gmail for SMTP. I rarely use it to send mail--i use it mostly as a "junk mail collector" or for something that requires a gmail address. I don't recall if I used my own relay for outgoing SMTP from a gmail address or not. > I'm fairly certain that Thunderbird's immediate predecessor, Netscape > Mail / Communicator existed in '96.? I know it existed in the late '90s. > ?(It's my understanding that Thunderbird is a direct descendant of > original Netscape source code.)? Please forgive me for counting Netscape > Mail / Communicator and Mozilla Thunderbird as one project and implying > that said project was around in the '90s. I wasn't aware of Thunderbird's lineage. I wonder how much of the original Netscape Mail is in Thunderbird, or even if Thunderbird understands Netscape mailboxes. I was probably still using NCSA Mosaic for web browsing in 1996. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu May 24 18:03:08 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 17:03:08 -0600 Subject: OT- Thunderbird ugliness, Was: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <26fec68d-b626-0ad8-ac85-7226b12a81eb@sydex.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <36a29568-c2b1-e8dc-f3c4-0c555bbc8787@sydex.com> <08231cd4-9d6f-5fcc-7b77-24dcea162a53@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <26fec68d-b626-0ad8-ac85-7226b12a81eb@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6d271086-79ff-f610-a2a9-3adcd319be12@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/24/2018 04:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'm not entirely sure that I do use gmail for SMTP. I rarely use it to > send mail--i use it mostly as a "junk mail collector" or for something > that requires a gmail address. Fair. > I don't recall if I used my own relay for outgoing SMTP from a gmail > address or not. If you do use other servers to send your Gmail address, you're likely running afoul of Gmail's SPF and DMARC. Your messages also wouldn't be DKIM signed by Gmail if you don't use Gmail's SMTP servers. > I wasn't aware of Thunderbird's lineage. I wonder how much of > the original Netscape Mail is in Thunderbird, or even if Thunderbird > understands Netscape mailboxes. I have no idea how much of the original code is still in there. I /think/ that Thunderbird does (or at least it used to) use standard mbox files for storage. So lots of things can handle that. > I was probably still using NCSA Mosaic for web browsing in 1996. I don't know that I ever used NCSA Mosaic. I should probably try it in a VM running Windows 3x some day. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bithistory at gmail.com Thu May 24 22:51:37 2018 From: bithistory at gmail.com (Garrett) Date: Thu, 24 May 2018 22:51:37 -0500 Subject: Lotus Notes and Domino In-Reply-To: <8fb8210e-91e8-b298-3271-3e2661244988@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <20180522221631.0CE5927470@mx1.ezwind.net> <5B04C005.5070806@pico-systems.com> <97237519-9c1f-6d9d-bcaa-cabc4aec2cfc@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <9abbbb26-4603-231e-a402-cd0202f12429@sydex.com> <6467f6f6-a503-8363-2e55-41d6df6e401f@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <99593b7e-4272-5073-89db-ca539a93b048@sydex.com> <59608cf3-e29b-6a7d-30f9-48a074cf98be@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <8fb8210e-91e8-b298-3271-3e2661244988@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: Lotus notes was great! I was a system administrator back around 1997 or so, managing Lotus notes running on a larger AIX server at HQ, and a bunch of smaller AIX systems at various remote offices. I really enjoyed working with it. Sadly, it was the only place I ever got to work with it! *Garrett Meiers* BitHistory.org https://www.facebook.com/BitHistory/ =Helping to protect and preserve our computing history= On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 12:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 05/24/2018 11:08 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> Though I've got to say, I think the absolute very BEST online / offline >> email client integration that I've ever seen was Lotus Notes and Domino. >> (I'll send a follow up email with details as to why I was /so/ impressed.) >> > > I was EXTREMELY impressed with how well Lotus Notes worked as an email > client for Lotus Domino when it came to online / offline use. > > First: I had Notes configured to replicate my email (DB) off of the > Domino server so that I could have access to it even if I was offline. > > I don't recall how Notes behaved if I transitioned between online / > offline in the event of a network (dis)connection. (It rarely happened.) > But I was easily able to change the so called "Location" from "Online" to > "Offline" (or any other location that I defined) on the fly with absolute > minimal impact by clicking a drop down and selecting a different location. > > The most likely small burp would be if I naively left it in the Online > location when starting up without the company VPN connected, thus unable to > communicate with the Domino server. In such a case, Notes might take 15 ~ > 30 additional seconds to open as it tried to connect before it would give > up trying to connect and say "Unable to connect to server, starting in > Offline mode." I could easily start the VPN after the fact and switch to > "Online" mode and do a Replicate (what Notes termed the Send & Receive). > > I could easily draft email while offline and it would sit in my outbox > waiting for the next time I replicated. > > IMHO it worked great. > > Aside: I had this same type of behavior for other non-Mail DBs inside of > Notes too. My employer used a LOT of Notes DBs for various things. > Vacation planner was a Notes DB. Inventory was a Notes DB. Team > documentation repositories were Notes DBs. Each team have a different > document repository (Team Room) Notes DB. Different people had different > levels of access to different DBs. > > Further Aside: I could easily enable DB level encryption of the local > replica of a Notes DB trivially. I could also turn encryption off or > change security level easily. > > *ALL* of my Notes DBs benefited from these (and more) features; > replication, online / offline, encryption, meta data indexing, full text > indexing, and many more. > > Second: The thing that I did with my email that was *SO* impressive to me > was that my email DB on my workstation was a replica of my email DB on the > Domino server. With the exception that my server replica was < 300 MB > (disk quota) and my local workstation replica > 2 GB. ? Yes, the same DB > had bidirectional replication between > 2 GB and < 300 MB. > > This is what amazed me. > > I configured custom replication between the my workstation and the server > such that: > > 1) Deletes from the server copy were not replicated into my workstation > copy. > 2) The server copy only maintained messages that were < 30 days old. > (I needed to replicate within that window, but 30 days is not a > problem.) > 3) ALL modifications to the local copy were replicated to the server copy. > > This allowed me to use my email like I had no disk quota at all. (Based > on amount of storage on my workstation.) I could leave all my messages in > my mailbox /with/ attachments left in tact. (Many colleagues removed > attachments form messages to shrink their inbox. I didn't have that > problem.) All the while I was able to stay well under the 300 MB disk > quota and stay out of "Mail Jail". > > As an added bonus, I was able to leverage the company provided web mail > interface and access the email that was still on the server (within the 30 > day window). Anything I sent / received / marked as (un)read would get > replicated into my workstation copy the next time I replicated. > > In my (not so) humble opinion, Lotus Notes & Domino has got to be, hands > down, the absolute BEST replicated email infrastructure that I've ever seen. > > I do think the UI was fairly ugly and somewhat clunky. That being said, I > was able to do compose email / team documents with features that I LONG for > in Gmail. > > In hind sight I would have liked to have a tiny Domino server (which Notes > was in some ways) that was an IMAP / SMTP interface for a local copy of > Thunderbird. - I think that would have given me the aforementioned > features /and/ what I considered to be a better UI. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > ? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri May 25 09:31:29 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 10:31:29 -0400 Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> Message-ID: Ive been hanging around on nekochan since high school. Its been my go to forum for a while and im not sure what I will do without it. There was a discussion on the forum itself a while ago about setting up some kind of bot to scrape the forum posts and archive the content. I decided against trying to do so myself as it seemed that it could take up quite a bit of bandwith and i did not want to offend the site owner. I have an entire room full of sgi equipment, and the information onthe site was valuable to me. I never had direct contact with the site owner, does anyone know of contact information for him? I would like to contact him, and if he is deciding on closing up the site, i would like to try and work with him to preserve some of the important discussion and documentation the site provided. As mentioned in a previous message to the list, another sgi forum has popped up already, i do not want to try and start my own forum and have a division of what few sgi owners there are out there, but if need be, i will host some of the documentation from the nekochan site if i can get it. If anyone has contact information for the owner of the nekochan site, please let me know so i can get in contact with him. --Devin D. On May 24, 2018 5:02 PM, "Ethan via cctalk" wrote: > I didn't see it being mentioned here on cctalk :( >> http://archive.is/dJgyQ >> but I'm hearing some refugees saying that the chances of the site going >> back online are not looking good >> > > I just posted my SGI Indigo PSU repair to that site and was planning to > copy it over to my personal blog this weekend. Arrgh. > > I assume archive.org doesn't have the site either since it's dynamicly > rendered. > > Kind of a knee jerk reaction, just send a mass email like every other site > does. > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > From boris at summitclinic.com Fri May 25 11:56:37 2018 From: boris at summitclinic.com (Boris Gimbarzevsky) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 08:56:37 -0800 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180525165644.0B8CC4E88C@mx2.ezwind.net> Thanks for doing this. I still use Eudora as my primary mail program and have been doing so since about 1991, first on Mac and then on Windoze. Have started using Thunderbird as easier to configure for new email formats and should probably get up to speed on developments since popmail format - much easier to do when one has source code to examine. It works far better than any other email program I've encountered and absolutely detest M$ outlook which seems to be the default for most people now, unfortunately. People now seem unaware of the size of their emails when they use html for sending a simple email and I use plain text only and attach files when need to use another format. Other nice thing about Eudora is that every attachment needs to be opened individually and am immune from malicious email attachments/embedded malware. Years ago I reverse engineered the mailbox file format enough to be able to recovere emails when Eudora crashed in the middle of compacting a mailbox. Now that have the source code should be able to get all 27 years of my emails into a single database. Eudora can handle large numbers of emails but it gets sluggish and finally crashes when don't archive mailing lists such as classiccmp and will be nice to have all the emails from this mailing list available for searching as one database rather than having to trying to find scattered archived Eudora mailbox files from decades ago. Boris Gimbarzevsky >For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others >to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of >what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: >Eudora. It's finally done! >http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Fri May 25 12:03:42 2018 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 19:03:42 +0200 Subject: AW: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <013101d3f44a$55e42a50$01ac7ef0$@liftoff.at> ftp://ftp.irix.cc/pub/nekoware/ -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Freitag, 25. Mai 2018 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 44, Issue 24 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From pbirkel at gmail.com Fri May 25 13:32:38 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 14:32:38 -0400 Subject: How to get rid of a DECwriter II? Message-ID: <042e01d3f456$c27a0de0$476e29a0$@gmail.com> Cross-post for the DEC Lovers here. -----Original Message----- Sent: Thursday, May 24, 2018 9:52 PM Subject: [GreenKeys] How to get rid of a DECwriter II? I'd sure like to get this thing out to make room for more Teletypes. Located in NW Arkansas. Jim Haynes ----- From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri May 25 14:58:40 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 20:58:40 +0100 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board Message-ID: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Hi folks, A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board they normally have. Centre of this board is the Nat Semi NS405 ?display processor on a chip? which is obviously why the board is so small but neither of us have seen this before in a 3A. Anyone else? Pic at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tonyADM3a.jpg cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ats at offog.org Fri May 25 16:04:28 2018 From: ats at offog.org (Adam Sampson) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 22:04:28 +0100 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> (Adrian Graham via cctalk's message of "Fri, 25 May 2018 20:58:40 +0100") References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: Adrian Graham via cctalk writes: > A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it > contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board > they normally have. Here's a similar one that was on eBay a couple of years ago (the full listing has pictures of the insides): https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/322312097162 The September 1986 date on the case of yours means that it dates from around the time when Lear-Siegler sold their terminal business to Zentec -- is it actually badged Lear-Siegler? -- Adam Sampson From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 25 16:29:04 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 21:29:04 +0000 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> > On May 22, 2018, at 3:02 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 22, 2018, at 12:55 PM, Len Shustek via cctalk wrote: >> >> For the last five years I've been working with Qualcomm and others to allow the Computer History Museum to release the source code of what was, in my opinion, the finest email client ever written: Eudora. It's finally done! >> http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/the-eudora-email-client-source-code/ >> > > Simply put, WOW! > > I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac, and I know that I?m not the only one. Unfortunately I also realize that it would take significant effort to update it for current versions of MacOS. > > I?m using Mail.app now, and it?s largely worthless at finding things in my email archives. > > Zane HOLY COW! I concur with Zane in every way. Len, thank you very much! What a labor of love! Eudora was my favorite productivity application of all time. I spend most of my time in Mail just due to heartbroken nostalgia for it. If a new version of that were to appear, capable of running on my Mac OS X.12 and talking to our Exchange server, I would be ecstatic. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri May 25 16:30:49 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 22:30:49 +0100 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 25 May 2018, at 22:04, Adam Sampson via cctalk wrote: > > Adrian Graham via cctalk writes: > >> A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it >> contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board >> they normally have. > > Here's a similar one that was on eBay a couple of years ago (the full > listing has pictures of the insides): > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/-/322312097162 > > The September 1986 date on the case of yours means that it dates from > around the time when Lear-Siegler sold their terminal business to > Zentec -- is it actually badged Lear-Siegler? Wow, good spot! This one isn?t badged but we just assumed it had fallen off. Just as I?m typing this he?s messaged me to say it?s actually the ADM-3A ?10th Anniversary edition?. The manual is on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/learSiegler/ADM_3/DP2880486F_ADM3A_UM_Apr86.pdf I do love a happy ending to a search :) Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 25 16:43:26 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 14:43:26 -0700 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6f78ac0c-a0eb-676b-9448-3f03746934b8@bitsavers.org> Getting a prom dump would be cool. On 5/25/18 12:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board they normally have. Centre of this board is the Nat Semi NS405 ?display processor on a chip? which is obviously why the board is so small but neither of us have seen this before in a 3A. > > Anyone else? Pic at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tonyADM3a.jpg > > cheers! > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 25 16:44:48 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 14:44:48 -0700 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> Message-ID: <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/18 2:29 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: >> I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac Someone has noticed that all of the resource forks in the files have disappeared :-( From phil at ultimate.com Fri May 25 16:50:03 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 17:50:03 -0400 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201805252150.w4PLo3BM090267@ultimate.com> Looks to me like the circuit board says "ADM 3R" From mtapley at swri.edu Fri May 25 17:09:39 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 22:09:39 +0000 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <94252743-1C84-4B32-9C28-15290B98B5FF@swri.edu> > On May 25, 2018, at 4:44 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/25/18 2:29 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: > >>> I dream of a new version of Eudora for the Mac > > Someone has noticed that all of the resource forks in the files have disappeared :-( Al, I just fired up my PowerBook 3400 runing Mac OS 9.1 for the first time in *way* too long and it runs Eudora 6.1 with no problems. ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application. I suspect you will get more than one email like this, but if you should want help and can tell me how to render it, please don?t hesitate! ?.or did I fail to catch some OS X irony there? - Mark From aek at bitsavers.org Fri May 25 17:35:56 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 15:35:56 -0700 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <94252743-1C84-4B32-9C28-15290B98B5FF@swri.edu> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> <94252743-1C84-4B32-9C28-15290B98B5FF@swri.edu> Message-ID: yea.. I'm not going to dig into it myself. Just wanted to warn people some archaeology will be necessary to rebuild the Mac version. On 5/25/18 3:09 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 25 20:36:20 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 20:36:20 -0500 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B08BA14.1080606@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2018 02:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board they normally have. Centre of this board is the Nat Semi NS405 ?display processor on a chip? which is obviously why the board is so small but neither of us have seen this before in a 3A. > > Anyone else? Pic at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tonyADM3a.jpg > > That looks a bit like a clone of the Term-Mite development board for the NS405. I suspect somebody just used the ADM-3A housing, monitor and maybe power supply components to hold their updated terminal. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Fri May 25 20:48:59 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 25 May 2018 20:48:59 -0500 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <6f78ac0c-a0eb-676b-9448-3f03746934b8@bitsavers.org> References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> <6f78ac0c-a0eb-676b-9448-3f03746934b8@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5B08BD0B.8060508@pico-systems.com> On 05/25/2018 04:43 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Getting a prom dump would be cool. > Steve Ciarcia of Byte and Circuit Cellar fame made a board using the NS405 called the Term-Mite. I have a file that says it has a very small patch to tweak the sync timing, and that is was disassembled by my own disassembler. But, I don't believe it, as it has EXTENSIVE comments, like every second line. I no longer remember how I got this file, but I'm guessing Steve distributed the source with the board. How/where should I submit this? It is 24.6K Jon From steven at malikoff.com Fri May 25 21:16:02 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 12:16:02 +1000 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B212@mail.bensene.com> References: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B212@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5daba2b1e66de293cb2d5d8c3685f70e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA Since Sutherland's technical report is also on the web (https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-574.html) I reckon it would make for a great 3rd-year Computer Science graphics assignment, to replicate Sketchpad using a high level language. A look through the report shows the use of rings, linked lists, recursion, storage considerations, maths, graphics and so on (only needing to replace the light pen with the mouse of course) which could be a fascinating exercise for a student. Yes there are already Sketchpad-named apps and Sketchpad-like programs, but I'm not sure if there is a near-100% faithful recreation of that original program as demoed in the film out there. Steve. From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat May 26 06:00:08 2018 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 21:00:08 +1000 Subject: SOT: OCR errors PDF Message-ID: <008401d3f4e0$b6c5e2f0$2451a8d0$@internode.on.net> Hi guys - wonder if any OCR aficionado can help me out please. I'm trying to clean up some old computer docs. One of things I'm doing is running OCR over them, in particular Adobe's ClearScan which I really like for document clarity and small file sizes. A few of them are producing the error: Acrobat could not perform recognition (ocr) on this page because: ENU Most OCR errors relate to renderable text but I can't find an explanation for "ENU" Has anyone encountered this OCR error and can tell me what it means please. Thank you. Kevin Parker From aek at bitsavers.org Sat May 26 13:43:21 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 11:43:21 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <5daba2b1e66de293cb2d5d8c3685f70e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B212@mail.bensene.com> <5daba2b1e66de293cb2d5d8c3685f70e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <85f60d54-da64-ee38-c491-77f4f3ea7411@bitsavers.org> On 5/25/18 7:16 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA It isn't. I've asked Ivan and he hasn't been willing to release it, mainly because he doesn't think anyone will be able to do anything with the code because the TX-2 instruction set was in a constant state of flux. There were a few things CHM got from Ivan within the past few years. I'll see if someone else had better luck. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 26 15:15:52 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 21:15:52 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> , <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> Folks, Well in case any one has the slightest bit of interest, I have now plugged the RAID card back in and after replacing on of the drive carriers I can get five of the six drives to spin up. Its now copying stuff to my Buffalo NAS but as its 10Mbit LAN its not terribly fast. I think the NAS isn't very fast either. It looks like zipping up the files and FTPing the ZIP files might be the quickest way to go. Dave From: Dave Wade Sent: 18 May 2018 22:31 To: 'Benjamin Huntsman' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 I thought I had captioned that picture. It's the original RAID controller which I am not using. If I plug it in it starts the disks in the RAID array which takes ages, and steals the hard disk BIOS vector which I need for the SCSI card that's running the system. I didn't want to remove it fully as I need to label the cables feeding it. One feeds the top drive bays, and the other the bottom so if I ever need to put it back it I need to know which is which. If I get some free time I will have a go at starting the disks in it and repairing the RAID array, and perhaps copy the disks that are installed. Dave From: Benjamin Huntsman > Sent: 18 May 2018 21:49 To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 I gotta ask, what's the deal with the dangling card? That cracked me up! Thanks for posting some pics! _____ From: cctalk > on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46 PM To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > -----Original Message----- > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > > Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 > To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > That's, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers > I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every > thing must be on the MCA bus. > > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec > card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, > no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a > >4GB drive option. > > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find > the drive and install the proper drivers. > > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that > puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives > depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card > in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD > ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 P390 flic.kr Explore this photo album by Dave G4UGM on Flickr! next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. Dave > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I > went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I > kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. > > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I'll install AIX on and > have an R/390. ;-) I haven't had the time yet to make any progress on it. > > But it's good to know that you've managed to do this if I decide to go back > and attempt the PC route again. > > TTFN - Guy From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 26 15:39:56 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 14:39:56 -0600 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/26/2018 02:15 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Well in case any one has the slightest bit of interest, I have now plugged > the RAID card back in and after replacing on of the drive carriers I > can get five of the six drives to spin up. Its now copying stuff to my > Buffalo NAS but as its 10Mbit LAN its not terribly fast. I think the NAS > isn't very fast either. It looks like zipping up the files and FTPing > the ZIP files might be the quickest way to go. So is the RAID up in a degraded state? Or is it optimal and the other two disks are spares? Either way, COOL!!! It sounds like you're doing some good computer archaeology / preservation. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat May 26 16:09:48 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 14:09:48 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> Message-ID: On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: > This has probably been asked before, but does anyone have the software > package that came with the HP-IB/RS232 HP10342 bus pre-processor for the > HP1650 series Logic Analyzer (actually I have a 1670G)? It should have a > config file and an inverse assembler file. I'm interested in the HP-IB > files. Can't find it anywhere. > - Marc > Reviving a 3 year old thread... For anyone that does any work with old HP logic analyzer inverse assembler files, it turns out that it is possible to decode the 68000 based logic analyzer IAL style IA binary files back into equivalent source code that can be assembled again with the 10391B ASM.EXE assembler. (No idea yet about the 6809 based 1630 series logic analyzers. Those use a different binary format). Decoded Inverse Assembler .S source code files for the 10342B HPIB, RS-232, RS-449 interface posted here: http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-logic-analyzer-inverse-assemblers/msg1568359/#msg1568359 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat May 26 16:31:54 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 22:31:54 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 26 May 2018 21:40 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > On 05/26/2018 02:15 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > > Well in case any one has the slightest bit of interest, I have now > > plugged the RAID card back in and after replacing on of the drive > > carriers I can get five of the six drives to spin up. Its now copying > > stuff to my Buffalo NAS but as its 10Mbit LAN its not terribly fast. I > > think the NAS isn't very fast either. It looks like zipping up the > > files and FTPing the ZIP files might be the quickest way to go. > > So is the RAID up in a degraded state? Or is it optimal and the other two disks > are spares? > Its degraded. There are no spares in the config. It did once rebuild the non-operational drive, but dropped it again very quickly. IBM recommended running the box from a UPS and never powering it off. I can't really afford the electricity > Either way, COOL!!! > > It sounds like you're doing some good computer archaeology / preservation. > OI think there are plenty of P390 boxes around, and most of the software is available, but its interesting to a Mainframe OS on real hardware. The Hercules emulator on a modern (Core i3 or Core I5) PC is much faster than the P390. > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die Dave From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat May 26 17:19:48 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 16:19:48 -0600 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <22d5cfa1-1c18-c200-44ce-19cd8211f4bd@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 05/26/2018 03:31 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > The Hercules emulator on a modern (Core i3 or Core I5) PC is much faster > than the P390. Ya. But there's still something to be said about older IBM servers. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat May 26 19:35:36 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 20:35:36 -0400 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: <85f60d54-da64-ee38-c491-77f4f3ea7411@bitsavers.org> References: <47DB30DC-24EE-4388-AB8E-8CCF975F20E3@mcjones.org> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B212@mail.bensene.com> <5daba2b1e66de293cb2d5d8c3685f70e.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <85f60d54-da64-ee38-c491-77f4f3ea7411@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Commodore 64/128 CAD programs, and maybe sample files http://www.vintagecomputer.net/commodore/64/d64_library/CAD/ BIll On Sat, May 26, 2018 at 2:43 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/25/18 7:16 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've > been fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA > > > It isn't. I've asked Ivan and he hasn't been willing to release it, mainly > because he doesn't think anyone will be able > to do anything with the code because the TX-2 instruction set was in a > constant state of flux. > > There were a few things CHM got from Ivan within the past few years. I'll > see if someone else had better luck. > > > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat May 26 08:31:52 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 09:31:52 -0400 Subject: SOT: OCR errors PDF In-Reply-To: <008401d3f4e0$b6c5e2f0$2451a8d0$@internode.on.net> References: <008401d3f4e0$b6c5e2f0$2451a8d0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: On 2018-05-26 7:00 AM, Kevin Parker via cctech wrote: > Hi guys - wonder if any OCR aficionado can help me out please. > > I'm trying to clean up some old computer docs. > > One of things I'm doing is running OCR over them, in particular Adobe's ClearScan which I really like for document clarity and small > file sizes. > > A few of them are producing the error: > > Acrobat could not perform recognition (ocr) on this page because: > ENU > > Most OCR errors relate to renderable text but I can't find an explanation for "ENU" > > Has anyone encountered this OCR error and can tell me what it means please. > > Thank you. > > General suggestion: For archiving, never replace the page scans with re-rendered text. The original typography is always superior (and has fewer errors). OCR is useful for a searchable layer only. --Toby > > Kevin Parker > > > > > > > From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat May 26 11:38:41 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 10:38:41 -0600 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> References: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> Message-ID: <91f4367d-b959-20ce-853a-3e508e047ac0@Wild-Hare.com> DG extensively used both its microNova and microEclipse processors for various products. The microNova was used for printer, terminal and display products around mid '70s, the microEclipse (code named "Alpha") was heavily used in communications processor add-ons. I do not recall a single customer/OEM using the chips in its own products - only board or systems. I am curious and will look into this further. I do not think it was a hostile attitude of DG's, rather the diverse and competitive chip market in the 1980s that made DG a non-issue. The Fairchild 9445 was a very good product, and was an extension of the Nova 3 architecture. It had few superior memory MAP and alternative address extension that I wish were in the DG products. (BTW, Fairchild used Nova 3s in its own production facilities.) Strobe Data created a successful PC ISA-bus Nova-like, Fairchild-based co-processor that a significant number of DG OEMs eventually moved to. MCBA applications were indeed written initially in standard DG Extended BASIC and later [re]written in ICOBOL (DG Interactive COBOL). MCBA and several other OEMs each independently wrote ISAM file libraries to adapt Extended BASIC for business environments. MCBA was able to successfully expand into other hardware vendor markets due to using the "portable BASIC" (and COBOL) approach and its derivatives are still in use today. The story of Nova architecture derivatives - technical, business and legal - is another long story. And 'yes', Novas and its derivatives are still used today... ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 05/22/2018 10:46 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctech wrote: > >> This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? >> >> I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. >> It seems quite pleasant. >> > > As I recall--and please correct me--DG was extremely hostile to the > notion of third parties incorporating the MicroNova in any of their > products. > > The same situation applied to the Fairchild 9440 MicroFlame, which was > essentially a clone of the MicroNova architecture. I recall that > Fairchild didn't want to talk to you (I tried) if you weren't in defense > or aerospace or the like. > > The basic idea of the 4x16 bit register 16-bit architecture was copied > to some extent by National Semi in their multichip IMP-16 and > single-chip PACE and 9440, but it was mostly in the "spirit of a > Nova"--performance wasn't all that great in comparison to the current 8 > bit MPUs. > > Weren't the MCBA business applications originally written in Nova BASIC? > > --Chuck > From paul at mcjones.org Sat May 26 12:18:33 2018 From: paul at mcjones.org (Paul McJones) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 10:18:33 -0700 Subject: Original CAD code in the wild? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8B0063F9-16BE-4356-92A7-E030C82E8A87@mcjones.org> Also, the computer history museum has a listing, so someone might be interested in getting the original code running on an emulator: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102726903 > On May 26, 2018, at 10:00 AM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > > I don't know if any source is still available, but for a long time I've been fascinated by Ivan Sutherland's Sketchpad running on the TX-2: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USyoT_Ha_bA > > Since Sutherland's technical report is also on the web (https://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/techreports/UCAM-CL-TR-574.html) I reckon it would make for a great 3rd-year Computer Science graphics assignment, to replicate Sketchpad using a high level language. A look through the report shows the use of rings, linked lists, recursion, storage considerations, maths, graphics and so on (only needing to replace the light pen with the mouse of course) which could be a fascinating exercise for a student. Yes there are already Sketchpad-named apps and Sketchpad-like programs, but I'm not sure if there is a near-100% faithful recreation of that original program as demoed in the film out there. > > Steve. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat May 26 22:38:17 2018 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 26 May 2018 21:38:17 -0600 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <91f4367d-b959-20ce-853a-3e508e047ac0@Wild-Hare.com> References: <91f4367d-b959-20ce-853a-3e508e047ac0@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <5777f50a-1597-b84a-566b-ba9152df4abd@Wild-Hare.com> G'day Chuck - DG extensively used both its microNova and microEclipse processors for various products. The microNova was used for printer, terminal and display products around mid '70s, the microEclipse (code named "Alpha") was heavily used in communications processor add-ons. I do not recall a single customer/OEM using the chips in its own products - only board or systems. I am curious and will look into this further. I do not think it was a hostile attitude of DG's, rather the diverse and competitive chip market in the 1980s that made DG a non-issue. The Fairchild 9445 was a very good product, and was an extension of the Nova 3 architecture. It had few superior memory MAP and alternative address extension that I wish were in the DG products. (BTW, Fairchild used Nova 3s in its own production facilities.) Strobe Data created a successful PC ISA-bus Nova-like, Fairchild-based co-processor that a significant number of DG OEMs eventually moved to. MCBA applications were indeed written initially in standard DG Extended BASIC and later [re]written in ICOBOL (DG Interactive COBOL). MCBA and several other OEMs each independently wrote ISAM file libraries to adapt Extended BASIC for business environments. MCBA was able to successfully expand into other hardware vendor markets due to using the "portable BASIC" (and COBOL) approach and its derivatives are still in use today. The story of Nova architecture derivatives - technical, business and legal - is another long story. And 'yes', Novas and its derivatives are still used today... ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 5/23/2018 9:47 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > On 05/22/2018 10:46 PM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctech wrote: > >> This is with a microEclipse CPU, right? >> >> I'm surprised the Nova/Eclipse architecture doesn't get more love. >> It seems quite pleasant. >> > > As I recall--and please correct me--DG was extremely hostile to the > notion of third parties incorporating the MicroNova in any of their > products. > > The same situation applied to the Fairchild 9440 MicroFlame, which was > essentially a clone of the MicroNova architecture. I recall that > Fairchild didn't want to talk to you (I tried) if you weren't in defense > or aerospace or the like. > > The basic idea of the 4x16 bit register 16-bit architecture was copied > to some extent by National Semi in their multichip IMP-16 and > single-chip PACE and 9440, but it was mostly in the "spirit of a > Nova"--performance wasn't all that great in comparison to the current 8 > bit MPUs. > > Weren't the MCBA business applications originally written in Nova BASIC? > > --Chuck > From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sun May 27 13:10:02 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 11:10:02 -0700 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Forgive me for replying to a nearly month-old post. You definitely want the "serial/parallel" slice option. They are relatively cheap on eBay. Besides all of the goodness of the serial port, you can also get a Xircom PE3-10BT Ethernet adapter that attaches to the parallel port and connect it to a modern network. Using it as a terminal is cute. Running telnet on it natively and playing Netris is cool. :-) On a slightly different topic, the tech ref describes the interface to the LCD screen. I have a few bad LCD screens - they have lines through them. I've thought about trying to debug them, but the thought of just replacing them outright with newer tech that can do color is really appealing too. (The original screens are LCDs, sometimes with a backlight option. But they can do greyscale, so detecting the levels and doing color should be feasible.) On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hey all, > > I have an IBM 5140 portable with a printer but I'd really like to use it as > a terminal among other things. Any chance there's documentation available > for that Centronics connector or another internal header with RS232 or > whatever? > > =] > -- > -- > Anders Nelson > +1 (517) 775-6129 > www.erogear.com > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun May 27 13:55:42 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 11:55:42 -0700 Subject: I ran across this strange modernistic? Data General ...odd? In-Reply-To: <91f4367d-b959-20ce-853a-3e508e047ac0@Wild-Hare.com> References: <7wk1ru9b66.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> <697eda84-6b1a-b53e-61c6-418b1406a087@sydex.com> <91f4367d-b959-20ce-853a-3e508e047ac0@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: <60256E25-D1AA-45F1-A5CD-E97FEA8FC7C4@nf6x.net> > On May 26, 2018, at 9:38 AM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > > And 'yes', Novas and its derivatives are still used today... That's news to me, and it sounds quite interesting. Would you mind elaborating on that? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun May 27 16:10:11 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 27 May 2018 17:10:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board Message-ID: <20180527211011.8A47718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > Steve Ciarcia ... made a board using the NS405 called the Term-Mite. I decided I'd do an article about the Term-Mite for the CHWiki; I found Ciarcia's long article about the Term-Mite (in his book, which Google books has); it talks throughout the article about the NS455 - but it also says "[t]he Term-Mite actually uses a NS405 chip which is a specialized version of the generic NS455". So I went to look up the 405 and 455, to see what the difference was between the 405 and the 455. I found a data sheet for a 405, but not one for the 455. Does anyone know where I can find info about the 455 (or, better, yet, know what the difference is between the two - that would save me some leg-work). Thanks (I hope :-)! Noel From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon May 28 01:26:28 2018 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 08:26:28 +0200 Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( In-Reply-To: References: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <20180528062628.GD19302@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 10:31:29AM -0400, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > Ive been hanging around on nekochan since high school. Its been my go to > forum for a while and im not sure what I will do without it. I haven't been there much lately but I'm saddened to see it go :( > There was a > discussion on the forum itself a while ago about setting up some kind of > bot to scrape the forum posts and archive the content. I hope that there will be an archive at least, there is some great information on that board. > I never had direct contact with the site owner, does anyone know of > contact information for him? I would like to contact him, and if he is > deciding on closing up the site, i would like to try and work with him > to preserve some of the important discussion and documentation the > site provided. Sorry, I don't have any mail adress for Pete. Perhaps you could try to get in touch with Ian Mapleson or other frequent poster. http://www.sgidepot.co.uk/sgidepot/contact.html /P From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon May 28 04:33:58 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 11:33:58 +0200 Subject: Nekochan has been shut down :( In-Reply-To: <20180528062628.GD19302@Update.UU.SE> References: <017d01d3f39f$06320f50$12962df0$@tin.it> <20180528062628.GD19302@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com DownTheBunker is open! features: - bazaar distiller doesn't require to register an account, it sums up Market place's items for sale or wanted in a nutshell - person-to-person trading in the Bazaar, you have to register an account in order to contact people - mini message-wall; doesn't log the IP and doesn't require you to register, can be used as a message in the bottle, or a mini chat - message-board. doesn't request to register but it logs the IP. It's more advanced and it can be used as mini Wiki - Chunks (of users/stuff) offers FTP-like with manuals and links to other sites bookmarks Durcheinander is an advanced area with the possibility for the (local, only from the local intranet) user to upload and execute JavaScripts, JavaAplette, Node.Js code, and Java bytecode. It's not yet safe enough to be open to the public Internet, and it stills needs to be hardened in its profile. Due to what happened in December 2017, cyber attacks destroying the whole website, it's a reserved chunk of priv? stealth rooms for the team, whose access from the Internet is reserved and features are reduced e.g. it checks the socket.connect.ip, and if it comes from outside the intranet it blocks the whole scripting-engine allowing just a plain text browsing. My participation to SGI is merely focused on my needs, as I'd like to port an HDL simulator to Irix. But I sold my Octane 1 year ago, and I am willing to sell my dual Tezro rack-mountable racks cause I lost enthusiasm. Anyway, does anyone happen to have a copy of an Ada95 compiler for Irix? Or a working copy of GNAT? Needed for IRIX >= 6.5.27 I will for sure sell the Tezro, Maybe I will reconsider the purchase of a tiny Octane. I am more focused on Linux/HPPA and Linux/PPC32, which are used for job tasks. At the moment. I am developing a fast FiberChannel ram-disk for the radio telescope. cheers From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Mon May 28 10:10:52 2018 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 01:10:52 +1000 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? Message-ID: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> I?m looking for a circa 1974 copy of RSX-11D distribution and the COBOL compiler that was shipped as an add-on product. I?ve looked through trailing-edge but maybe I am missing the obvious, anyone have any ideas or has a copy? thanks From aek at bitsavers.org Mon May 28 10:27:18 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 08:27:18 -0700 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: I have 11D on bitsavers. 11D/IAS is VERY rare. The tape cost me a fair bit 10+ years ago on eBay I've never seen the COBOL compiler On 5/28/18 8:10 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > I?m looking for a circa 1974 copy of RSX-11D distribution and the COBOL compiler that was shipped as an add-on product. > > I?ve looked through trailing-edge but maybe I am missing the obvious, anyone have any ideas or has a copy? > > thanks > From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Mon May 28 10:42:17 2018 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 08:42:17 -0700 Subject: Amiga documentation - free for shipping Message-ID: <1527522137.25348.122.camel@moondog> I have some Amiga documentation gifted to me a long time ago by an Amiga enthusiast. Now that I'm moving and downsizing, it has to go. Free for shipping, USPS media mail. AmigaDOS User's Manual - paperback book --------------------------------------- "This manual describes the various AmigaDOS, [sic] and its commands." Errata to the AmigaDOS User's Manual - photocopy ------------------------------------------------ Amiga Hardware Manual - photocopy --------------------------------- "... provides information about the Amiga graphics and audio hardware ... tutorial on writing assembly language programes to directly control the Amiga's graphics and hardware." INTERFACING TO THE 68K BUS CONNECTOR ON THE AMIGA Designing Hardware for the Amiga Expansion Architecture Drawings of the Expansion Boards for the Amiga ---------------------------------------------- A packet of photocopy documents and schematics. From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Mon May 28 11:28:22 2018 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 09:28:22 -0700 Subject: Linux Journal - the early years Message-ID: <1527524902.25348.215.camel@moondog> Is Linux "classic" enough? If you think not, please ignore this email I started with Linux kernel version 0.12 (not a typo), which I believe was the first version that was self-hosting. I subscribed to Linux Journal from its beginning. Is there any collector value or interest in old issues of Linux Journal? I have a continuous run for "several" years, beginning with the very first issue. Anyone interested? As many as you want could be yours for the cost of shipping (USPS Media Mail). From Michael at jongleur.co.uk Mon May 28 16:37:18 2018 From: Michael at jongleur.co.uk (Michael Mulhern) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 07:37:18 +1000 Subject: Linux Journal - the early years In-Reply-To: <1527524902.25348.215.camel@moondog> References: <1527524902.25348.215.camel@moondog> Message-ID: Hi, I?d be interested in the first 25 issues. I?ll send you my NV address Cheers, Michael. On Tue, 29 May 2018 at 2:30 am, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > Is Linux "classic" enough? If you think not, please ignore this email > > I started with Linux kernel version 0.12 (not a typo), which I believe > was the first version that was self-hosting. I subscribed to Linux > Journal from its beginning. > > Is there any collector value or interest in old issues of Linux Journal? > I have a continuous run for "several" years, beginning with the very > first issue. > > Anyone interested? As many as you want could be yours for the cost of > shipping (USPS Media Mail). > > -- *Blog: RetroRetrospective ? Fun today with yesterday's gear??.. * *Podcast*: *Retro Computing Roundtable * (Co-Host) From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon May 28 23:33:10 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 28 May 2018 22:33:10 -0600 Subject: Linux Journal - the early years In-Reply-To: <1527524902.25348.215.camel@moondog> References: <1527524902.25348.215.camel@moondog> Message-ID: On 05/28/2018 10:28 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > I started with Linux kernel version 0.12 (not a typo), which I believe > was the first version that was self-hosting. I need to go back and learn more history of Linux, particularly about before it was self hosting. I've heard vague reference to Unix not being self hosting either when it first started out. I think it relied on GE Computer Operating System. (I think that's where the "gecos" field comes from.) > Is there any collector value or interest in old issues of Linux Journal? > I have a continuous run for "several" years, beginning with the very > first issue. I don't know how much value there is presently for the old issues. But I suspect that there will be some historic value in the future. > Anyone interested? As many as you want could be yours for the cost of > shipping (USPS Media Mail). My instinct would be BitSavers or The Internet Archive might be interested. Though I don't know how that works seeing as how Linux Journal is still (again?) alive and selling subscriptions. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 29 02:04:51 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 01:04:51 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <20180527211011.8A47718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180527211011.8A47718C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 3:10 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I decided I'd do an article about the Term-Mite for the CHWiki; I found > Ciarcia's long article about the Term-Mite (in his book, which Google books > has); it talks throughout the article about the NS455 - but it also says > "[t]he Term-Mite actually uses a NS405 chip which is a specialized version > of > the generic NS455". > The NS455 has firmware in masked ROM, which it uses if the EA pin is low. If EA is high (min spec 3.8V, normally tied directly to Vdd), external memory (usually ROM or EPROM) must be used instead. The NS405 has the masked ROM disabled, so external firmware must be used, and EA must be tied high. It is actually the same die with unspecified ROM content, so it probably would execute some sort of internal firmware if EA was low, but that might or might not be the same as the standard NS455 firmware; it could be firmware from a custom version of the NS455, or test firmware, or (less likely) any of the above but with some errors due to mask defects. I've been searching for the NS405 manual (not the datasheet) for a very long time. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 29 02:07:38 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 01:07:38 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 1:58 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine has said ADM-3A and is baffled by the tiny board it > contains, not the usual ?covering entire base? discrete logic board they > normally have. Centre of this board is the Nat Semi NS405 ?display > processor on a chip? which is obviously why the board is so small but > neither of us have seen this before in a 3A. > > Anyone else? Pic at http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tonyADM3a.jpg < > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tonyADM3a.jpg> > That's the Zentec ADM3 retrofit: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/zentec/Zentec_ADM3_Retrofit/ From pete at petelancashire.com Tue May 29 02:08:18 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 00:08:18 -0700 Subject: Next 'stack' of computers to go, IBM p7's - not classics this time In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The p720s etc. have found a new home. On Sat, May 12, 2018, 5:28 AM Pete Lancashire wrote: > This time not so 'classic' > > My last job was maintaining IBM p7's and eventually p8's. > > One thing I started was putting together a home setup. But like all the > other > projects the gear has become redundant to me. > > The 'stack' consists of 2 each IBM p720's, a CR6 HMC, and a KVM drawer. > > The p720 do NOT have any hard drives or carriers, but both are available > via > Ebay. The carrier was used in more than one model, and in the past I've > bought carriers with small disks for < $20 each, then found larger disks of > various brands. > > And the rails are missing from the p720's. > > Google "ibm p720" > > I can't remember how much RAM, number of CPUs etc but one p720 was > 'loaded'. > > If interested let me know and > > If anyone knows a good AIX list please let me know > > I'll try to get a few photo's this weekend. > > The 'stack' is located in Portland, Oregon. > > NO PACKING OR SHIPPING, must be local pickup. > > > -pete > > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue May 29 02:10:14 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 01:10:14 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wow, good spot! This one isn?t badged but we just assumed it had fallen > off. Just as I?m typing this he?s messaged me to say it?s actually the > ADM-3A ?10th Anniversary edition?. The manual is on bitsavers: > It might have _started_ its life as an ADM-3A 10th Anniversary Edition, but it isn't one any more. The PCB in the photo is the Zentec ADM3 Retrofit. From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Tue May 29 02:30:02 2018 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 17:30:02 +1000 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I have 11D on bitsavers. this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 29 06:59:29 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 07:59:29 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: > On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> I have 11D on bitsavers. > > this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ IAS is basically RSX-11/D under the covers, with some minor tweaks and with a sort of timesharing added. If I remember right that involved a new type of partition where memory was managed more dynamically. I worked on Typeset-11 which was written for RSX-11/D and then ported to IAS, where the timesharing part was left out since we had no use for it. So the "port" didn't involve any real change, not even for drivers. At one point DEC pushed to retire RSTS/E and replace it with IAS; that notion was a miserable failure because IAS timesharing wasn't nearly as good. paul From decguy at songdog.eskimo.com Tue May 29 08:38:03 2018 From: decguy at songdog.eskimo.com (Guy N.) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 06:38:03 -0700 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> On Tue, 2018-05-29 at 17:30 +1000, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > I have 11D on bitsavers. > > this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ As I recall, IAS ("Interactive Applications System") was a timesharing environment layered on top of RSX-11D. When I was working with RSX-11D many years ago, I heard the opinion expressed (maybe by DEC field service?) that RSX-11D was a pig, and IAS was an elephant on a pig's back. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 29 08:46:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 09:46:43 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> Message-ID: <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> > On May 29, 2018, at 9:38 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, 2018-05-29 at 17:30 +1000, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have 11D on bitsavers. >> >> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ > > As I recall, IAS ("Interactive Applications System") was a timesharing > environment layered on top of RSX-11D. > > When I was working with RSX-11D many years ago, I heard the opinion > expressed (maybe by DEC field service?) that RSX-11D was a pig, and IAS > was an elephant on a pig's back. Sounds right to me. RSX-11/D could fit in 124 kwords, but not all that comfortably. IAS required 22 bit addressing. RSX-11/M was apparently created in response to that piggishness. I once saw an RSX-15 kernel listing, which had a lot of very familiar looking data structures -- it implied that RSX-11/D had its origins, at least as far as overall design is concerned, in RSX-15. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue May 29 09:10:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 10:10:16 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> Message-ID: Is AIS the same as AIDCS? http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/IDACS_11-07/ On Tue, May 29, 2018, 9:46 AM Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > > > On May 29, 2018, at 9:38 AM, Guy N. via cctalk > wrote: > > > > On Tue, 2018-05-29 at 17:30 +1000, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > >> wrote: > >>> I have 11D on bitsavers. > >> > >> this is actually RSX-11D? > http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ > > > > As I recall, IAS ("Interactive Applications System") was a timesharing > > environment layered on top of RSX-11D. > > > > When I was working with RSX-11D many years ago, I heard the opinion > > expressed (maybe by DEC field service?) that RSX-11D was a pig, and IAS > > was an elephant on a pig's back. > > Sounds right to me. RSX-11/D could fit in 124 kwords, but not all that > comfortably. IAS required 22 bit addressing. RSX-11/M was apparently > created in response to that piggishness. > > I once saw an RSX-15 kernel listing, which had a lot of very familiar > looking data structures -- it implied that RSX-11/D had its origins, > at least as far as overall design is concerned, in RSX-15. > > paul > > > From mtapley at swri.edu Tue May 29 09:21:16 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 14:21:16 +0000 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> <94252743-1C84-4B32-9C28-15290B98B5FF@swri.edu> Message-ID: <2941E842-6587-4683-B61E-AEDE24B46631@swri.edu> > On May 25, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > yea.. I'm not going to dig into it myself. > Just wanted to warn people some archaeology will be necessary to rebuild the Mac version. > > > On 5/25/18 3:09 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >> ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application. One more followup, over the weekend I located the "Eudora 6.2.dmg? file that installed the Eudora I used up until our Exchange server quit talking to it. The .dmg is 4.8 MB on disk according to the MacOSX.4 PowerBook it?s on. As before, anyone wanting help with working on updating need only ask and let me know how to help. - Mark From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 29 09:22:14 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 10:22:14 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <10FD4CF4-041D-4E1C-9420-2F012E46973A@comcast.net> > On May 29, 2018, at 10:10 AM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > Is AIS the same as AIDCS? > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/IDACS_11-07/ No. IAS (not AIS) is an RSX-11/D variant that intended to add timesharing capabities to RSX-11/D. RSX-11/D was pretty much limited to fixed purpose real-time and turnkey applications (such as Typeset-11) because of the inflexible way in which it managed memory through "partitions". That term also shows up in RSX-11/M, I think, but in /D it was quite rigid and not suitable for situations where the applications to be run were not known ahead of time -- as would happen in timesharing systems with programmers using it. paul From john at forecast.name Tue May 29 09:30:40 2018 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 10:30:40 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: > On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> I have 11D on bitsavers. > > this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. I believe that this was the last supported release. John. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 29 10:05:42 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 11:05:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board Message-ID: <20180529150542.7094218C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > The NS455 has firmware in masked ROM ... The NS405 has the masked ROM > disabled Ah, thanks muchly! Do you know of _any_ documentation extant for the 455? I couldn't find anything.. > I've been searching for the NS405 manual (not the datasheet) for a very > long time. The data sheet seems pretty complete - are you sure there ever was a manual? Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Tue May 29 10:11:39 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 11:11:39 -0400 Subject: IBM 5140 - schematics? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Mike, thanks for the suggestion! I found an eBay auction for TWO of these serial/parallel add-ons plus a 128K RAM card. If I buy this, would anyone like to take the second unit off my hands? I have one 5140 and I intend to keep it that way. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, May 27, 2018 at 2:10 PM, Michael Brutman wrote: > Forgive me for replying to a nearly month-old post. > > You definitely want the "serial/parallel" slice option. They are > relatively cheap on eBay. Besides all of the goodness of the serial port, > you can also get a Xircom PE3-10BT Ethernet adapter that attaches to the > parallel port and connect it to a modern network. > > Using it as a terminal is cute. Running telnet on it natively and playing > Netris is cool. :-) > > On a slightly different topic, the tech ref describes the interface to the > LCD screen. I have a few bad LCD screens - they have lines through them. > I've thought about trying to debug them, but the thought of just replacing > them outright with newer tech that can do color is really appealing too. > (The original screens are LCDs, sometimes with a backlight option. But > they can do greyscale, so detecting the levels and doing color should be > feasible.) > > On Sat, Apr 28, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hey all, >> >> I have an IBM 5140 portable with a printer but I'd really like to use it >> as >> a terminal among other things. Any chance there's documentation available >> for that Centronics connector or another internal header with RS232 or >> whatever? >> >> =] >> -- >> -- >> Anders Nelson >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> www.erogear.com >> > > From couryhouse at aol.com Tue May 29 10:44:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 11:44:55 -0400 Subject: Linux Journal - the early years In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163ac92d899-c91-1f0a@webjas-vaa206.srv.aolmail.net> either one? or? both... no? harm in having? two repositories.? Ed# ? In a message dated 5/28/2018 9:32:30 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On 05/28/2018 10:28 AM, Guy N. via cctalk wrote: > I started with Linux kernel version 0.12 (not a typo), which I believe > was the first version that was self-hosting. I need to go back and learn more history of Linux, particularly about before it was self hosting. I've heard vague reference to Unix not being self hosting either when it first started out. I think it relied on GE Computer Operating System. (I think that's where the "gecos" field comes from.) > Is there any collector value or interest in old issues of Linux Journal? > I have a continuous run for "several" years, beginning with the very > first issue. I don't know how much value there is presently for the old issues. But I suspect that there will be some historic value in the future. > Anyone interested? As many as you want could be yours for the cost of > shipping (USPS Media Mail). My instinct would be BitSavers or The Internet Archive might be interested. Though I don't know how that works seeing as how Linux Journal is still (again?) alive and selling subscriptions. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Tue May 29 11:28:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 09:28:58 -0700 Subject: Eudora email client source code released In-Reply-To: <2941E842-6587-4683-B61E-AEDE24B46631@swri.edu> References: <20180522195556.ADABD273CA@mx1.ezwind.net> <5F8B6C09-F0E6-4C7D-B1C8-86CD45FB286A@avanthar.com> <4AC7387E-102D-4CD9-918E-D4FD03AC83F6@swri.edu> <0d26db25-5dad-498f-02c9-7902bf6d9767@bitsavers.org> <94252743-1C84-4B32-9C28-15290B98B5FF@swri.edu> <2941E842-6587-4683-B61E-AEDE24B46631@swri.edu> Message-ID: Before you get too far, the original source disk from Qualcomm is still available and some work has started to try to recover the Mac files and their resource forks at CHM. On 5/29/18 7:21 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk wrote: >> On May 25, 2018, at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> yea.. I'm not going to dig into it myself. >> Just wanted to warn people some archaeology will be necessary to rebuild the Mac version. >> >> >> On 5/25/18 3:09 PM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >>> ResEdit 2.1 can see a whole page of Resources in the Eudora Application. > > One more followup, over the weekend I located the "Eudora 6.2.dmg? file that installed the Eudora I used up until our Exchange server quit talking to it. The .dmg is 4.8 MB on disk according to the MacOSX.4 PowerBook it?s on. As before, anyone wanting help with working on updating need only ask and let me know how to help. > - Mark > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue May 29 12:04:32 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 13:04:32 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: > On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: > > >> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: >> >> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk >> wrote: >>> I have 11D on bitsavers. >> >> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ > > Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. Wow, I did not know that. It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly hacked RSX-11/D... paul From john at forecast.name Tue May 29 12:57:30 2018 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 13:57:30 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: > On May 29, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> I have 11D on bitsavers. >>> >>> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ >> >> Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. > > Wow, I did not know that. It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly hacked RSX-11/D... > > paul > > My first job in Maynard was project lead for DECnet-11D & DECnet-IAS (Phase II). It was basically the same source code for both, just separate builds since they were released as separate distributions. Later versions consolidated the releases into a single kit. The V3.4A tapes will claim to be running IAS but, if you select the ?Real-Time? options during sysgen you?ll get the familiar MCR> prompt: 1920K (word) IAS Version 3.4A Baselevel 3414 SAV -- Partition GEN expanded by 57472 words MOUNT-**Volume Information** Device =DB0 Class =File 11 Label =IASSYS UIC =[1,1] Access =[RWED,RWED,RWED,RWED] Charac =[] MOUNT -- DB0 ** Mount Complete ** 20-NOV-90 12:15:53 Date and time, please? MCR> IIRC, IAS development in Reading was done mostly on an 11/45. The 2.0 SPD confirms that IAS was supported on 11/45, 55 and 60 but only with 2 active terminals. John. From johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk Tue May 29 14:39:47 2018 From: johnwallace4 at yahoo.co.uk (John Wallace) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 19:39:47 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? References: <417877317.11463155.1527622787556.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <417877317.11463155.1527622787556@mail.yahoo.com> [apologies for lack of context, been away from cctalk a long time and insufficient recall of how this cctalk thing works... yet somehow still remember IAS on an 11/70 from the 1980s] Pick an RSX layered product and lots of fundamental stuff would probably be compatible between 11M, 11D, and IAS (and/or 11M+). Find the RSX version and see if IAS is mentioned as supported in the SPD or other documentation. It often was, and even if it wasn't, lots of non-priv stuff would just work. More IAS background from someone (not me) who was there in the IAS development team in DEC Reading: https://www.john-a-harper.com/ias.html "This page is dedicated to the best of the many PDP-11 operating systems - IAS I couldn't find anything else on the Web about IAS? but it deserves better than to fall completely into obscurity. DEC's approach to operating systems for the PDP-11 was anything but disciplined. New ones got invented every time some engineer or marketing person blinked. In the early days, there was a real-time kernel called RSX-11A, designed for memory-resident applications in what we now call embedded processors. Features got added to this rapidly - code bloat is nothing new. By the time it got to RSX-11D it had a complete disk-based file system, a program development environment, and support for every peripheral in the Small Computer Handbook (and there were plenty of them - peripherals on the PDP-11 obeyed the same strategic imperatives as operating systems - see above). At this time, a bright young engineer called Dave Cutler decided that enough was enough, and set out to create a small system that would do the same, which he called RSX-11M. We all know what happened to him - and he no longer even has the excuse of youthful excess. (continues...)" Hth. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue May 29 17:10:51 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 23:10:51 +0100 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On 29 May 2018, at 08:10, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk > wrote: > Wow, good spot! This one isn?t badged but we just assumed it had fallen off. Just as I?m typing this he?s messaged me to say it?s actually the ADM-3A ?10th Anniversary edition?. The manual is on bitsavers: > > It might have _started_ its life as an ADM-3A 10th Anniversary Edition, but it isn't one any more. The PCB in the photo is the Zentec ADM3 Retrofit. > Ah right, that?s good to know for any troubleshooting we may need to do in the future! For now it?s working nicely though. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue May 29 20:49:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 21:49:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MM11-F manual/drawings Message-ID: <20180530014936.9644418C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have discovered that the manual and prints for the MM11-F core memory are not online; it turns out I have a manual/prints set, and at some point will get them scanned and over to Al. My question is: is there anyone who has an immediate need for these things? If so, I will make the scan higher priority, otherwise it'll be a round tuit number. Noel From web at loomcom.com Tue May 29 13:24:07 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 11:24:07 -0700 Subject: Looking for a VT52 keycap Message-ID: <1527618247.1695109.1389455440.3565E02A@webmail.messagingengine.com> Hello folks, This weekend I picked up a VT52 DECscope terminal from a fellow collector. It's in fantastic shape, apart from being a little dirty and missing the number "6" keycap from the number pad. This is a real long shot, but if you have a permanently broken VT52 terminal you're keeping for parts, could you please let me know? I'd like to buy a "6" key and make this one complete. -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue May 29 13:39:21 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 29 May 2018 18:39:21 +0000 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> <1527601083.30862.584.camel@moondog> <65A54880-4B16-48EE-B092-EB4B95FDB33D@comcast.net> Message-ID: From: Paul Koning Sent: Tuesday, May 29, 2018 6:47 AM > I once saw an RSX-15 kernel listing, which had a lot of very familiar > looking data structures -- it implied that RSX-11/D had its origins, > at least as far as overall design is concerned, in RSX-15. RSX-15 was the predecessor of RSX-11/A, which was a port to the newer architecture. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From useddec at gmail.com Wed May 30 01:30:18 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 01:30:18 -0500 Subject: Looking for a VT52 keycap In-Reply-To: <1527618247.1695109.1389455440.3565E02A@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1527618247.1695109.1389455440.3565E02A@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: Hi Seth, It it the 6 from the main keyboard or the numeric keypad? I should have one around here I can send you but it might take a while to find. Thanks, Paul On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:24 PM, Seth Morabito via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello folks, > > This weekend I picked up a VT52 DECscope terminal from a fellow collector. > It's in fantastic shape, apart from being a little dirty and missing the > number "6" keycap from the number pad. > > This is a real long shot, but if you have a permanently broken VT52 > terminal you're keeping for parts, could you please let me know? I'd like > to buy a "6" key and make this one complete. > > -Seth > -- > Seth Morabito > web at loomcom.com > From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed May 30 08:19:29 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 08:19:29 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode Message-ID: Has anyone attempted to reassemble and update the microcode on a MicroVAX? Seems like there's enough stuff here to possibly do it: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/ucode/ I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play with before I design something around the Intel 3000 series. I've got a MicroVAX 3800, so I suppose I could run MICRO2 to assemble the aforementioned microcode. But then what? I assume PALs would have to be burned to implement the new microcode. Or is it more complicated than that? I don't have a PDP-11/60, unfortunately. I do have an 11/45, though...so with this modification, I suppose one could have some fun: http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3241&context=compsci Thanks, Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 08:51:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 09:51:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modifying microcode Message-ID: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one > could have some fun: That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on additional CPU boards, that's how the EIA works: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KE11-E_Extended_Instruction_Set And it's custom boards, the design for which is no longer extant (pity, as I'd love to play with one myself). Finally, I have this vague memory that they had to put a few minor mods on some of the existing CPU boards (details also lost), although my memory may be misleading me on that. Noel From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 30 09:16:15 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 09:16:15 -0500 Subject: Intel 386 chips, new in trays Message-ID: <08ab01d3f820$c5bee3e0$513caba0$@com> Not affiliated with seller, etc. Intel 386 CPU. Remember when we bought them and thought they were so fast! Well..maybe someone has that obscure application that needs them. 500pcs QU80386EX25 NEW UNUSED IN TRAYS Regards, Ron Sanders RBD Electronics, Inc. 63 Flansburg Ave Dalton, MA 01226 1-413-442-1111 ron at rbdelectronics.com Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From john at forecast.name Wed May 30 09:33:50 2018 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:33:50 -0400 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: > On May 29, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > >> On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk >>> wrote: >>>> I have 11D on bitsavers. >>> >>> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ >> >> Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. > > Wow, I did not know that. It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly hacked RSX-11/D... > > paul > > Probably more that just ?slightly? hacked but certainly not a completely new design. The scheduler was completely reworked along with the swapping mechanisms. When I first saw it, there were 2 user interfaces; SCI> the System Control Interface for management operations and PDS> Program Development System for normal users. Before release, both were collapsed into the, now familiar, DCL> interface. Just remapping DCL commands onto the standard utilities was a major part of the work. John. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 30 09:46:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 14:46:28 +0000 Subject: DEC RSX-11D and its COBOL compiler? In-Reply-To: References: <01A81076-C820-4C53-94E2-B6436AF39E74@retrocomputingtasmania.com> Message-ID: On 05/30/2018 10:33 AM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: >> On May 29, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> >> >>> On May 29, 2018, at 10:30 AM, John Forecast via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On May 29, 2018, at 3:30 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:27 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>>> I have 11D on bitsavers. >>>> this is actually RSX-11D? http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/ias/ >>> Yes. The two V3.4A tapes will allow you to build either RSX-11D or IAS. >> Wow, I did not know that. It certainly confirms that IAS is just a slightly hacked RSX-11/D... >> >> paul >> >> > Probably more that just ?slightly? hacked but certainly not a completely new design. The scheduler was completely reworked > along with the swapping mechanisms. When I first saw it, there were 2 user interfaces; SCI> the System Control Interface for > management operations and PDS> Program Development System for normal users. Before release, both were collapsed > into the, now familiar, DCL> interface. Just remapping DCL commands onto the standard utilities was a major part of the work. > > I find this conversation very interesting.? I was always led to believe that when Mentec got all the PDP-11 OSes except IAS? (supposedly because DEC still had government commitments) that it eventually faded into obscurity and was lost. Obviously, not the case.? Has anyone ever approached HP about the possibility of just releasing it all to the world as either Licensed Open Source or just public domain?? Not my favorite OS by any means, but better than the nothing we have for the PDP-11 today. bill From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed May 30 09:34:26 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 16:34:26 +0200 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way you can use MICRO2 to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. ?On 5/30/18, 3:19 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Kyle Owen via cctalk" wrote: Has anyone attempted to reassemble and update the microcode on a MicroVAX? Seems like there's enough stuff here to possibly do it: http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/ucode/ I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play with before I design something around the Intel 3000 series. I've got a MicroVAX 3800, so I suppose I could run MICRO2 to assemble the aforementioned microcode. But then what? I assume PALs would have to be burned to implement the new microcode. Or is it more complicated than that? I don't have a PDP-11/60, unfortunately. I do have an 11/45, though...so with this modification, I suppose one could have some fun: http://repository.cmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=3241&context=compsci Thanks, Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed May 30 10:01:23 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:01:23 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 8:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Kyle Owen > > > I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose > one > > could have some fun: > > That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same > technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on > additional CPU boards, that's how the EIA works: > Ah, I got confused! Thanks for the clarification! So the same technique would work on the 11/35, then? Kyle From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed May 30 10:02:35 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:02:35 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven < camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com> wrote: > The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) > and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM > on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way you can use MICRO2 > to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. Gotcha. Which small VAXes had external ROM/PALs for microcode store? Thanks, Kyle From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 10:17:33 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 11:17:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modifying microcode Message-ID: <20180530151733.2CA1818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Kyle Owen > So the same technique would work on the 11/35, then? Yes, the /35 and /40 are completely identical, except for the number painted on the inlay on the front console. (Well, the /35 was often sold in a BA11-K box, and the /40 in a BA11-F, but that's just physical configuration, and is just a 'usually' - there are /35's in BA11-F's [for sure], and probably /40's in BA11-K's.) Noel From sales at elecplus.com Wed May 30 10:23:24 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:23:24 -0500 Subject: old DEC stuff Message-ID: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> If they are still around, this guy had a lot of old DEC stuff. Not affiliated with seller, etc. Mitch Miller | Phone (937) 847-2300 / Fax (937) 847-2350 (Old area code was 513) | | Keyways, Inc. | 204 S. Third St. | Miamisburg, Ohio 45342 USA | | E-mail: miller at keyways.com | Web: http://www.keyways.com | Stock List: http://www.keyways.com/stock.html Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org Wed May 30 10:32:58 2018 From: johnhreinhardt at thereinhardts.org (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:32:58 -0500 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> Message-ID: <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> On 5/30/2018 10:23 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > If they are still around, this guy had a lot of old DEC stuff. > > Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > Mitch Miller > > | Phone (937) 847-2300 / Fax (937) 847-2350 (Old area code was 513) > > | > > | Keyways, Inc. > > | 204 S. Third St. > > | Miamisburg, Ohio 45342 USA > > | > > | E-mail: miller at keyways.com > > | Web: http://www.keyways.com > > | Stock List: http://www.keyways.com/stock.html > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > They are still quite active. Both as a brick and mortar storefront (or warehouse) and as an online seller -- John H. Reinhardt From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed May 30 10:43:41 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 15:43:41 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2018 15:51 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: Modifying microcode > From: Kyle Owen > I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one > could have some fun: That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on additional CPU boards, that's how the EIA works: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KE11-E_Extended_Instruction_Set And it's custom boards, the design for which is no longer extant (pity, as I'd love to play with one myself). Finally, I have this vague memory that they had to put a few minor mods on some of the existing CPU boards (details also lost), although my memory may be misleading me on that. Noel I am (way too slow) repairing an 11/35, and I am looking at the details of the CPU, execute micro-stepping, etc. In that process I got the idea to develop some ?extended microcode patch? board ? but forgot about it, because I?d better get the 11/35 fixed first. My findings so far : www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-35/repair/repair35page.html Comments are very welcome! As the EIS and FIS are extensions on the microcode, the hardware does support microcode extensions. The only two PDP-11 processor that have microcode extension options are the 11/60 and the LSI-II (WCS). Henk, PA8PDP From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Wed May 30 10:11:48 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 17:11:48 +0200 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> On 5/30/18, 5:03 PM, "Kyle Owen" wrote: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way you can use MICRO2 to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. Gotcha. Which small VAXes had external ROM/PALs for microcode store? Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed May 30 10:49:09 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 15:49:09 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <20180530151733.2CA1818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530151733.2CA1818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2018 17:17 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: Modifying microcode > From: Kyle Owen > So the same technique would work on the 11/35, then? Yes, the /35 and /40 are completely identical, except for the number painted on the inlay on the front console. (Well, the /35 was often sold in a BA11-K box, and the /40 in a BA11-F, but that's just physical configuration, and is just a 'usually' - there are /35's in BA11-F's [for sure], and probably /40's in BA11-K's.) Noel I vaguely remember that there was a difference in the front console For the BA11-K and the BA11-F configuration. When standing in front of the console, the two ribbon cables from the front panel are at the right side for a BA11-K box, and on the left side for the BA11-F box. Given the location of the CPU boards in both boxes, that makes sense. I do have an 11/35 in BA11-F box (on the system manual cover this is indicated as the 21? model). I also have an 11/35 in BA11-K box, so yes, both configs exist(ed). Henk, PA8PDP From dce at skynet.be Wed May 30 10:52:15 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 17:52:15 +0200 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? hem ... No On 30/05/2018 17:32, John H. Reinhardt via cctalk wrote: > On 5/30/2018 10:23 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: >> If they are still around, this guy had a lot of old DEC stuff. >> >> Not affiliated with seller, etc. >> >> >> Mitch Miller >> >> | Phone (937) 847-2300 / Fax (937) 847-2350 (Old area code was 513) >> >> | >> >> | Keyways, Inc. >> >> | 204 S. Third St. >> >> | Miamisburg, Ohio 45342 USA >> >> | >> >> | E-mail: miller at keyways.com >> >> | Web: http://www.keyways.com >> >> | Stock List: http://www.keyways.com/stock.html >> >> >> >> Cindy Croxton >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > > > They are still quite active. Both as a brick and mortar storefront (or > warehouse) and as an online seller > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed May 30 11:48:35 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 12:48:35 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> > On May 30, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > > Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the console LSI-11? And the 730 used bit slice processors (AMD 2901) as I recall, so that had to have its microcode external. paul From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed May 30 11:52:13 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 11:52:13 -0500 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> Message-ID: <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> Dominique wrote: $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? hem ... No ----------------- Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. Best, J From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed May 30 11:53:32 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 16:53:32 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com>, <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> Message-ID: Van: Paul Koning via cctalk Verzonden: woensdag 30 mei 2018 18:49 Aan: Camiel Vanderhoeven; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Modifying microcode > On May 30, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > > Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the console LSI-11? And the 730 used bit slice processors (AMD 2901) as I recall, so that had to have its microcode external. paul I always thought (?) that the TU58 cassette ?in? the front of the VAX-11/730 contained the microcode. For ease, that cartridge was kept in the drive so that it is available at boot time. Causing a lot of ?D?shaped rubber rollers ? Henk, PA8PDP From spacewar at gmail.com Wed May 30 11:54:28 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:54:28 -0600 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 10:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the console LSI-11? Only the small microcode patch store was loaded. Most of the 11/780 microcode was in bipolar PROMs. The later 11/785 had all of the microcode in RAM loaded by the LSI-11. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed May 30 11:57:26 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 12:57:26 -0400 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:52 PM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Dominique wrote: > $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? > > hem ... No > ----------------- > Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". > He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. > > However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. I know Mitch from Hamvention and Dayton Computerfest events years ago. Always had a good time chatting with him. I would definitely consider him if I was looking for a specific part. -ethan From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 30 12:05:14 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 12:05:14 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B0ED9CA.2000706@pico-systems.com> On 05/30/2018 08:19 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > Has anyone attempted to reassemble and update the microcode on a MicroVAX? > > Seems like there's enough stuff here to possibly do it: > http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/ucode/ > > I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play with > before I design something around the Intel 3000 series. Intel 3000? WHY! I'd get an FPGA development board and download Xilinx's webpack software. It would not take real long to design the basic microcode engine, and then you could develop some application microcode in parallel with the hardware, adding whatever feature to the hardware you needed when the need came up in the microcode. > I've got a MicroVAX 3800, so I suppose I could run MICRO2 to assemble the > aforementioned microcode. But then what? I assume PALs would have to be > burned to implement the new microcode. Or is it more complicated than that? > PALs? I don't think the 3800 microcode was in PALs. I think it was in the CPU chip. There may have been a patch array that allowed a very small number of microcode words to be overridden. Jon From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:22:16 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 12:22:16 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <5B0ED9CA.2000706@pico-systems.com> References: <5B0ED9CA.2000706@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 12:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 05/30/2018 08:19 AM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > >> >> I'm thinking about trying to find a microcoded architecture to play with >> before I design something around the Intel 3000 series. >> > Intel 3000? WHY! > Well, the Tesla clones were cheap and readily available on eBay! :) > > I'd get an FPGA development board and download Xilinx's webpack software. > It would not take real long to design the basic microcode engine, and then > you could develop some application microcode in parallel with the hardware, > adding whatever feature to the hardware you needed when the need came up in > the microcode. Yup, I've played around a lot with my Basys 3 board. But I like the idea of writing microcode for an existing design (one that has a software simulation as well as real hardware would be preferable), even though it could likely run much faster on an FPGA. > > I've got a MicroVAX 3800, so I suppose I could run MICRO2 to assemble the >> aforementioned microcode. But then what? I assume PALs would have to be >> burned to implement the new microcode. Or is it more complicated than >> that? >> >> PALs? I don't think the 3800 microcode was in PALs. I think it was in > the CPU chip. There may have been a patch array that allowed a very small > number of microcode words to be overridden. Yes, you appear to be correct; it's all internal. Kyle From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed May 30 12:33:20 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 10:33:20 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530135126.460D818C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7594FF6D-D362-4F2F-91BB-7CB171EDACCD@shiresoft.com> > On May 30, 2018, at 6:51 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Kyle Owen > >> I do have an 11/45, though... so with this modification, I suppose one >> could have some fun: > > That's for the -11/40 - very different machine, one couldn't use the same > technique on the /45; the /40 is prepared to accept additional ucode on > additional CPU boards, that's how the EIA works: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/KE11-E_Extended_Instruction_Set > > And it's custom boards, the design for which is no longer extant (pity, as > I'd love to play with one myself). > > Finally, I have this vague memory that they had to put a few minor mods on > some of the existing CPU boards (details also lost), although my memory may > be misleading me on that. > I?m *very* familiar with the 11/40E as all of our 11/40?s at CMU had been ?upgraded? to 11/40Es (including all of the ones on C.MMP). I recall the updated micro-code board but I can?t recall if the main CPU boards needed any mods. I?ll look over the CMU docs again and see if what might be required. Did a little bit of micro-programming on the 11/40E but quickly found it was better to concentrate on efficient algorithms. ;-) But to speed up kcalls in Hydra there was at one point a lot of custom micro-code on the 11/40Es on C.MMP. TTFN - Guy From dce at skynet.be Wed May 30 12:45:03 2018 From: dce at skynet.be (Dominique Carlier) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 19:45:03 +0200 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On 30/05/2018 18:52, Jay West wrote: > Dominique wrote: > $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? > > hem ... No > ----------------- > Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". > He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. > > However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. OK, I understand a little better. However, just a question, which kind of business clients wants a very rusty PDP8L for $9,999 ? Sorry, I'm sure this person is very friendly and I don't want to discuss about his business finally. I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector machines that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds, probably like this PDP8. Anyway, this is an endless debate in which I don't want to enter. I'm happy to have been able to recover the big part of my machines before they cost the price of a kidney. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 12:48:26 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 13:48:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Modifying microcode Message-ID: <20180530174826.34B2318C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > My findings so far : > www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-35/repair/repair35page.html > Comments are very welcome! I got a: You don't have permission to access to this document on this server. Apache Server at pdp-11.nl error message? > I vaguely remember that there was a difference in the front console For > the BA11-K and the BA11-F configuration. ... the two ribbon cables from > the front panel are at the right side for a BA11-K box, and on the left > side for the BA11-F box. Given the location of the CPU boards in both > boxes, that makes sense. They didn't do two different console PCBs, did they? It must be just cabling routing? I couldn't find any manual/drawings for the BA11-K version, so I can't tell for sure.. > From: Jon Elson > I'd get an FPGA development board and download Xilinx's webpack > software. It would not take real long to design the basic microcode > engine, and then you could develop some application microcode in > parallel with the hardware That approach worked really well for Dave B and I on the QSIC. IIRC, we bounced around the uengine design concepts for a couple of days, and then once we decided to go, he had the hardware working in a day or so. It's in Verilog, so perfect for an FPGA devel board; I think it's in his Github repository: https://github.com/dabridgham/QSIC If you go this route, I have that config-file driven uassembler written in portable C (compiles on 3 different systems that I know of) which uses only standard I/O library which you can use for the ucode; it should handle most any uengine design, unless it has something really wierd. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed May 30 12:51:30 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 18:51:30 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 4:11 PM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: >> Gotcha. Which small VAXes had external ROM/PALs for microcode store? >> > > > Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series > (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. The 11/730 (one 10.5" rack unit for the CPU, heavy, but I can lift one fully assembled) has (most?) of the microcode in RAM, it's loaded from the TU58 when you start the machine. And apart from the ECC gate arrays, it's all standard ICs in the CPU, albeit with a _lot_ of PALs. -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed May 30 12:55:26 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 13:55:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: old DEC stuff Message-ID: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Dominique Carlier > I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector machines > that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds Hey, look at the bright side: as a result, they are much less likely to be simply recycled as scrap. I took great pleasure in telling one seller who'd pulled a board-set, and recycled the rest, that the part he'd recycled was worth a lot more than the part he'd saved. Hopefully that kind of news gets around. Noel From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 30 13:15:05 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 18:15:05 +0000 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 05/30/2018 01:55 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Dominique Carlier > > > I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector machines > > that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds > > Hey, look at the bright side: as a result, they are much less likely to be > simply recycled as scrap. I see quite the opposite.? After a while of sitting, taking up valuable warehouse space with? no one expressing interest in buying them they are likely to be scrapped as valueless. > > I took great pleasure in telling one seller who'd pulled a board-set, > and recycled the rest, that the part he'd recycled was worth a lot more > than the part he'd saved. Hopefully that kind of news gets around. > And the seller probably laughed it off and sent the next batch to the scrap yard fondly remembering you as some nut. bill From teoz at neo.rr.com Wed May 30 13:38:01 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 14:38:01 -0400 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4D8ED072C00B427CA2A88D4EC081C63D@teoPC> Or they now think everything that is worthless is worth massive amounts of money. -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 2:15 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: old DEC stuff On 05/30/2018 01:55 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Dominique Carlier > > > I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector machines > > that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds > > Hey, look at the bright side: as a result, they are much less likely to be > simply recycled as scrap. I see quite the opposite. After a while of sitting, taking up valuable warehouse space with no one expressing interest in buying them they are likely to be scrapped as valueless. > > I took great pleasure in telling one seller who'd pulled a board-set, > and recycled the rest, that the part he'd recycled was worth a lot more > than the part he'd saved. Hopefully that kind of news gets around. > And the seller probably laughed it off and sent the next batch to the scrap yard fondly remembering you as some nut. bill --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed May 30 15:01:36 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 13:01:36 -0700 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <24DF95CF-AB2D-4515-841C-FE85E099F117@avanthar.com> > On May 30, 2018, at 9:52 AM, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > > Dominique wrote: > $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? > > hem ... No > ----------------- > Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". > He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. > > However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. > > Best, > > J I?ve only dealt with Mitch as a business customer, and the experience was definitely positive. We needed hardware that dealer I have worked with in the past (as a Hobbyist), was unable to provide. Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed May 30 15:28:47 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 20:28:47 +0000 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <4D8ED072C00B427CA2A88D4EC081C63D@teoPC> References: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4D8ED072C00B427CA2A88D4EC081C63D@teoPC> Message-ID: On 05/30/2018 02:38 PM, TeoZ wrote: > Or they now think everything that is worthless is worth massive > amounts of money. It won't take long to dispel that and storage space (warehouse, not memory) is expensive. bill > > -----Original Message----- From: Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 2:15 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: old DEC stuff > > > > On 05/30/2018 01:55 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> ???? > From: Dominique Carlier >> >> ???? > I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector >> machines >> ???? > that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds >> >> Hey, look at the bright side: as a result, they are much less likely >> to be >> simply recycled as scrap. > > I see quite the opposite.? After a while of sitting, taking up valuable > warehouse space with? no one expressing interest in buying them > they are likely to be scrapped as valueless. >> >> I took great pleasure in telling one seller who'd pulled a board-set, >> and recycled the rest, that the part he'd recycled was worth a lot more >> than the part he'd saved. Hopefully that kind of news gets around. >> > > And the seller probably laughed it off and sent the next batch to the > scrap yard fondly remembering you as some nut. > > bill > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From Mark at Misty.com Wed May 30 18:59:19 2018 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 19:59:19 -0400 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:52:13AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Dominique wrote: > $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? > > hem ... No > ----------------- > Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". > He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. > > However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. My experience has been as Jay suggests. Mitch has been both extremely helpful, and reasonable to work with as a hobbyist on a budget, you just need to make clear up front you are a hobbyist; maybe mention CCTALK. I visited his warehouse on my Dayton Hamvention trip last week, and came away with some considerably better deals from Mitch than from the hamfest fleamarket. I know Mitch is interested in doing more hobbyist business, and understands dollar amounts and expectations are different than when selling to a government agency or big business. I see rusty PDP8s on e-pay from various sellers for what seem to me like crazy amounts, though am not sure if they actually sell for that kind of money. Maybe there is another entire category of collector who buys that kind of stuff for that kind of money. It would have been my loss had I written off Mitch on the basis of some of Mitch's listings expensive, but admittedly rare, pdp-11 switch listings. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed May 30 19:06:03 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 00:06:03 +0000 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Dang! I was in Dayton/Xenia also this year and never knew that is where Mitch is located! I have spoken to him on the phone. Very nice guy and very willing to work with hobbyists. Next year I will make a point of meeting him in person and picking up some goodies 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G Thomas via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, May 30, 2018 7:59 PM To: Jay West; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: old DEC stuff Hi, On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:52:13AM -0500, Jay West via cctalk wrote: > Dominique wrote: > $75 for one toggle switch ? $9,999.00 for a rusty PDP8L ? > > hem ... No > ----------------- > Mitch Miller is a really good guy, and very "collector friendly". > He still sells to a lot of business clients, and those are the prices he can get for those in that market. > > However, if you call or email him - let him know you are a collector - you'll find him willing to work with you. My experience has been as Jay suggests. Mitch has been both extremely helpful, and reasonable to work with as a hobbyist on a budget, you just need to make clear up front you are a hobbyist; maybe mention CCTALK. I visited his warehouse on my Dayton Hamvention trip last week, and came away with some considerably better deals from Mitch than from the hamfest fleamarket. I know Mitch is interested in doing more hobbyist business, and understands dollar amounts and expectations are different than when selling to a government agency or big business. I see rusty PDP8s on e-pay from various sellers for what seem to me like crazy amounts, though am not sure if they actually sell for that kind of money. Maybe there is another entire category of collector who buys that kind of stuff for that kind of money. It would have been my loss had I written off Mitch on the basis of some of Mitch's listings expensive, but admittedly rare, pdp-11 switch listings. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:07:50 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 22:07:50 -0400 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> Message-ID: <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> Wow. Impressive reverse engineering work. Congrats! Marc > On May 26, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Marc Verdiell wrote: >> This has probably been asked before, but does anyone have the software >> package that came with the HP-IB/RS232 HP10342 bus pre-processor for the >> HP1650 series Logic Analyzer (actually I have a 1670G)? It should have a >> config file and an inverse assembler file. I'm interested in the HP-IB >> files. Can't find it anywhere. >> - Marc >> > > Reviving a 3 year old thread... > > For anyone that does any work with old HP logic analyzer inverse > assembler files, it turns out that it is possible to decode the 68000 > based logic analyzer IAL style IA binary files back into equivalent > source code that can be assembled again with the 10391B ASM.EXE > assembler. (No idea yet about the 6809 based 1630 series logic > analyzers. Those use a different binary format). > > Decoded Inverse Assembler .S source code files for the 10342B HPIB, > RS-232, RS-449 interface posted here: > http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-logic-analyzer-inverse-assemblers/msg1568359/#msg1568359 From elson at pico-systems.com Wed May 30 21:26:09 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 21:26:09 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> On 05/30/2018 11:48 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On May 30, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: >> >> Depending on your definition of small, the MicroVAX 1, and the VAX 8000 series (not that small). In both cases though, the ROM chips are a custom DEC design. > Didn't the 780 get its microcode loaded by the console LSI-11? And the 730 used bit slice processors (AMD 2901) as I recall, so that had to have its microcode external. The early 780 had most microcode in ROM, and had a small writable control store for special OS-required options and patches. Later machines had more WCS, but I think they still had some non-writable control store. I remember our early 780 had the WCS board replaced during a field upgrade, and maybe the fixed control store was replaced, too. Jon From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:47:59 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 19:47:59 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:07 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Wow. Impressive reverse engineering work. Congrats! > Marc > It wouldn't have been possible for me to do this without source code provided in the 16900-series logic analyzer Analysis AddIn Tool. The agIalEngine.cpp source file provided there contains a complete IAL style inverse assembler .R file parser into the variable and constant segment, the instruction opcode segment, and the string segment, plus an interpreter to execute the instruction opcodes. So it was mostly trying to figure out exactly what the agIalEngine.cpp source code does and writing something a similar tool that could execute in a standalone environment, and output text representations of everything in the .R file instead of interpreting and executing it. I hope I can do something similar to figure out the IA file format used by the 1630 series, just for completeness, and maybe be able to write an equivalent to the IALDOWN tools for the 1630 series. It appears that the 1630 series IA files start with the same .R files, then flatten them down to the three segments, then add some header information. But they also break the resulting file in a block structure with a 16-bit checksum on each block using an unknown algorithm. My current plan is to try hooking another logic analyzer up to a 1630 to observe what the 6809 CPU is doing when it computes checksums. I tried using CRC RevEng without any luck. Could be user error and I don't know how to use that tool. From cctalk at snarc.net Wed May 30 15:06:17 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 16:06:17 -0400 Subject: Osborne available Message-ID: I received an email from plebourgeois at me.com who said he's in Mandeville, Lousiana and has an Osborne available with accessories/manauls to a good home for the cost of shipping. He said he'll throw it away if he does not find a home for it soon. That's all I know, do not reply to me or this list, send the guy an email directly. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cramcram at gmail.com Wed May 30 21:09:27 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 19:09:27 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> Message-ID: Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700? Marc On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:07 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Wow. Impressive reverse engineering work. Congrats! > Marc > > > On May 26, 2018, at 5:09 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On Fri, May 22, 2015 at 7:43 PM, Marc Verdiell > wrote: > >> This has probably been asked before, but does anyone have the software > >> package that came with the HP-IB/RS232 HP10342 bus pre-processor for the > >> HP1650 series Logic Analyzer (actually I have a 1670G)? It should have a > >> config file and an inverse assembler file. I'm interested in the HP-IB > >> files. Can't find it anywhere. > >> - Marc > >> > > > > Reviving a 3 year old thread... > > > > For anyone that does any work with old HP logic analyzer inverse > > assembler files, it turns out that it is possible to decode the 68000 > > based logic analyzer IAL style IA binary files back into equivalent > > source code that can be assembled again with the 10391B ASM.EXE > > assembler. (No idea yet about the 6809 based 1630 series logic > > analyzers. Those use a different binary format). > > > > Decoded Inverse Assembler .S source code files for the 10342B HPIB, > > RS-232, RS-449 interface posted here: > > http://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/hp-logic-analyzer- > inverse-assemblers/msg1568359/#msg1568359 > From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 30 23:30:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 00:30:45 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <163b4764ff1-c95-455f@webjas-vad165.srv.aolmail.net> Sent from AOL Mobile Mail From couryhouse at aol.com Wed May 30 23:49:16 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 00:49:16 -0400 Subject: old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180530175526.BFE6A18C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <163b4874cd4-c93-108c4@webjas-vab160.srv.aolmail.net> I had a fist model nova... sold eons ago.. tracked it bacl5... darned if the fellow kept boards to Save space and scrapped thec rest of it ... how sad.... Ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > From: Dominique Carlier > I just regret this incredible rise in prices for collector machines > that, not so long ago, were languishing in wet sheds Hey, look at the bright side: as a result, they are much less likely to be simply recycled as scrap. I took great pleasure in telling one seller who'd pulled a board-set, and recycled the rest, that the part he'd recycled was worth a lot more than the part he'd saved. Hopefully that kind of news gets around. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu May 31 00:06:45 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 30 May 2018 22:06:45 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 7:09 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700? > > Marc The older analyzers were never that great for serial protocol decoding. The solution used with the HP 10342B RS-232 preprocessor interface was to throw hardware at the problem with a Zilog SIO/1 to turn the serial bits into parallel bytes, along with a Z80 CPU to configure the SIO/1. http://www.bitsavers.org/test_equipment/hp/logic_analyzer_preprocessors/photos/10342B/10432B_T.jpg The 16700 series software has the B4601B Serial Analysis Tool Set. You need to install a license to use that, which has been made available. I have never really tried to do anything with the B4601B Serial Analysis Tool Set and have no idea if it would be of any help for I2C analysis. From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Thu May 31 09:31:22 2018 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 10:31:22 -0400 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1527777089.OObofa4pmia6SOObxfWd2P@mf-smf-ucb033c3> http://branch.annarobertsart.com Kevin Anderson From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 31 10:28:47 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 09:28:47 -0600 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, May 30, 2018, 20:26 Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > The early 780 had most microcode in ROM, and had a small > writable control store for special OS-required options and > patches. Later machines had more WCS, but I think they > still had some non-writable control store. > The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. Probably the so-rare-as-to-be-almost-nonexistent 9000 series had entirely WCS as well. All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or patch store. From bob at jfcl.com Thu May 31 10:08:08 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 08:08:08 -0700 Subject: Manual for Data Media Elite 2500 terminal? Message-ID: <003f01d3f8f1$2fbb30c0$8f319240$@com> Can anyone point me to a technical manual for the DataMedia Elite 2500A terminal? I'm especially interested in documentation on the escape sequences and the special character sets. This was a fairly high end smart terminal from the late 70s or early 80s. Bitsavers has a short manual for the 1500 which I'm guessing to be similar, but the 2500 has some extra features (e.g. insert line/character, delete line/character, etc) that aren't present there. Thanks, Bob Armstrong From taborj at obsolete.site Thu May 31 09:13:22 2018 From: taborj at obsolete.site (Jon Tabor) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 07:13:22 -0700 Subject: Hams and old computer stuff (Re: old DEC stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:06:03AM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Dang! I was in Dayton/Xenia also this year and never knew that is where Mitch is located! I have spoken to him on the phone. Very nice guy and very willing to work with hobbyists. Next year I will make a point of meeting him in person and picking up some goodies > > 73 Eugene W2HX > A bit unrelated, and I'm fairly new to this list, but interesting to see so many ham radio operators pop up. I suspect the same tinkering desire we get from ham radio is what draws us to old computers. 73 KI7JYE -- Jon Tabor taborj at obsolete.site http://obsolete.site ?There is a saying: There is no such thing as overkill. There is only ?Open fire!? and ?Reloading!? ? John Ringo, The Hot Gate From phil at ultimate.com Thu May 31 10:59:35 2018 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 11:59:35 -0400 Subject: Manual for Data Media Elite 2500 terminal? In-Reply-To: <003f01d3f8f1$2fbb30c0$8f319240$@com> References: <003f01d3f8f1$2fbb30c0$8f319240$@com> Message-ID: <201805311559.w4VFxZLX003511@ultimate.com> FreeBSD termcap has: dm2500|datamedia2500|2500|datamedia 2500:\ :do=^J:al=15^P\n^X^]^X^]:le=^H:bs:ce=^W:cl=^^^^\177:\ :cm=^L%r%n%.%.:co#80:dc=10*^P\b^X^]:dl=10*^P^Z^X^]:\ :dm=^P:ed=^X^]:ei=10\377\377^X^]:ho=^B:ic=10*^P^\^X^]:\ :im=^P:li#24:nc:nd=^\:pc=\377:so@=^N:se=^X^]:up=^Z: (whatever THAT means!) And in english (from an old copy of ITS TECO): IFN DM2500,[ SUBTTL DM2500 DM25TB: 2000+24.,,79. (%TOERS+%TOMVB+%TOMVU+%TOLWR+%TOLID+%TOCID+%TOFCI) CALL DMCPS CALL DMCEOL CALL DMCEOL ;CLOSEST WE CAN COME CALL DMCLRS REPEAT 3, NOP CALL DMINSL CALL DMDELL CALL DMINSC CALL DMDELC CALL DMRST DMCPS: JUMPE B,[MOVEI A,^B ;HOME IS EASY PBOUT RET] MOVEI A,^L ;ELSE ^L PBOUT HRRZ A,B XORI A,"` PBOUT HLRZ A,B XORI A,"` DMCP2: PBOUT RET DMCEOL: MOVEI A,^W JRST DMCP2 DMCLRS: MOVEI A,^^ PBOUT ;[ DMRST: MOVEI A,^] ;RESTORE ROLL MODE JRST DMCP2 DMINSL: SAVE C SAVE B CALL DMINS1 ;POSITION RIGHT AND ENTER I/D MODE MOVEI A,30. ;COMPUTE AMOUNT OF FILL NEEDED SUBI A,(BP) ;((30.-(BP))*OSPEED-2400.)/14400. SKIPN B,OSPEED ;SPEED OF OUTPUT MOVEI B,9600. ;ASSUME MAX IF UNKNOWN IMULI B,(A) SUBI B,2400. IDIVI B,14400. ;MAGIC NUMBER IN B DMINS2: MOVEI A,^J ;INSERT A LINE PBOUT MOVEI A,177 ;FILL CHARACTER SKIPE C,B ;GET NUMBER OF FILL CHARS NEEDED PBOUT SOJG C,.-1 ;OUTPUT THAT MANY SOJG Q,DMINS2 ;REPEAT FOR NUMBER OF LINES REQUESTED REST B DMINS3: REST C MOVEI A,^X JRST DMCP2 DMDELL: SAVE C CALL DMINS1 DMDEL2: MOVEI A,^Z ;DELETE A LINE PBOUT MOVEI A,177 ;ONE FILL CHAR SKIPE C,OSPEED CAIL C,9600. PBOUT ;ONLY FOR 9600 BAUD OR MORE THOUGH SOJG Q,DMDEL2 JRST DMINS3 DMINS1: HRROI A,[.BYTE 7 ? ^L ? "` ? 0] PSOUT MOVEI A,140(BP) PBOUT MOVEI A,^P PBOUT RET DMINSC: SAVE C HRROI A,[.BYTE 7 ? ^P ? ^\ ? ^X ? 0] SKIPE C,OSPEED CAIL C,9600. ;IF AT 9600 OR MORE, HRROI A,[.BYTE 7 ? ^P ? 40 ? 177 ? ^X ? ^H ? 40 ? ^H] ;USE HAIRY ONE PSOUT REST C SOJG Q,DMINSC RET DMDELC: HRROI A,[.BYTE 7 ? ^P ? ^H ? 0] PSOUT SAVE C MOVEI A,177 SKIPE C,OSPEED CAIL C,9600. ;IF AT 9600 OR MORE, PBOUT ;NEED ONE FILL CHAR JRST DMINS3 ] ;DM2500 From ben at bensinclair.com Thu May 31 16:56:59 2018 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 16:56:59 -0500 Subject: Hams and old computer stuff (Re: old DEC stuff) In-Reply-To: <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> Message-ID: On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Jon Tabor via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:06:03AM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > Dang! I was in Dayton/Xenia also this year and never knew that is where > Mitch is located! I have spoken to him on the phone. Very nice guy and very > willing to work with hobbyists. Next year I will make a point of meeting > him in person and picking up some goodies > > > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > > A bit unrelated, and I'm fairly new to this list, but interesting to see > so many ham radio operators pop up. I suspect the > same tinkering desire we get from ham radio is what draws us to old > computers. > > I was at Hamvention this year too, though I didn't see as many old computer items as I did last year! Last year I saw some NeXT machines, an amazing Lisa, and a few other treasures. This year I saw a Kaypro II and a couple Sinclairs, though I didn't buy any of them. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From spacewar at gmail.com Thu May 31 17:14:28 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 16:14:28 -0600 Subject: Hams and old computer stuff (Re: old DEC stuff) In-Reply-To: <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> Message-ID: On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 8:13 AM, Jon Tabor via cctalk wrote: > A bit unrelated, and I'm fairly new to this list, but interesting to see > so many ham radio operators pop up. > Boat anchors have always been popular with hams! From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu May 31 19:27:51 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 00:27:51 +0000 Subject: Hams and old computer stuff (Re: old DEC stuff) In-Reply-To: <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> Message-ID: On 05/31/2018 10:13 AM, Jon Tabor via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:06:03AM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> Dang! I was in Dayton/Xenia also this year and never knew that is where Mitch is located! I have spoken to him on the phone. Very nice guy and very willing to work with hobbyists. Next year I will make a point of meeting him in person and picking up some goodies >> >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> > A bit unrelated, and I'm fairly new to this list, but interesting to see so many ham radio operators pop up. I suspect the > same tinkering desire we get from ham radio is what draws us to old computers. > > 73 > KI7JYE > Well, I was a radio operator and radio teletype operator before I got into computers.? And what people here consider "old computers" were state of the art when I started so it isn't tinkering as much as nostalgia.? :-) bill KB3YV (ex N2APY, ex DA1WO) From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu May 31 20:03:05 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 21:03:05 -0400 Subject: Hams and old computer stuff (Re: old DEC stuff) In-Reply-To: References: <091f01d3f82a$27185fa0$75491ee0$@com> <40f6cda8-2382-3050-2aac-b6c699dfed96@thereinhardts.org> <004601d3f836$8f007290$ad0157b0$@classiccmp.org> <20180530235919.GA24879@allie.home.misty.com> <20180531141322.oapmry3625ncfnpz@hotspur.obsolete.site> Message-ID: On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 5:56 PM, Ben Sinclair via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 9:13 AM, Jon Tabor via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 12:06:03AM +0000, W2HX via cctalk wrote: >> > Dang! I was in Dayton/Xenia also this year... >> >> A bit unrelated, and I'm fairly new to this list, but interesting to see >> so many ham radio operators pop up. I suspect the >> same tinkering desire we get from ham radio is what draws us to old >> computers. >> > I was at Hamvention this year too, though I didn't see as many old computer > items as I did last year! I've been to Hamvention on and off over the past 38 years. I'd say in general the amount of old computer items has been a fairly steady downward trend the entire time. I got my first PDP-8/L at my first Hamvention. Those early-80s days were *full* of DEC equipment. By the early 90s, that had largely dried up. Still plenty of old stuff but not the old stuff I was after. -ethan From brain at jbrain.com Thu May 31 23:48:53 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Thu, 31 May 2018 23:48:53 -0500 Subject: M6809E/63C09E databus behavior question Message-ID: I agree this is very specific, but I thought perhaps someone could help. As I look at the '09 datasheets, I can't tell when the data lines become valid on a write cycle. I ask because I have created a few projects that place themselves between the CPU and the CPU socket (CPLD based). To play nice with a potentially shared address and databus, my code honors the BA and TSC lines on the IC.? If either line is high, as noted in the datasheet, I tristate the address and data lines. Otherwise, the address lines are valid during the entire E cycle. As for data, it depends on the state of the R/W line. If R/W is high, the external databus is connected to the CPU databus during the entire cycle if TSC and BA are both low. If R/W is low, I initially set the external data bus according to this assign statement: assign data_ext = (!r_w & e& !(tsc | ba) ? data_09 : 8'bz); The '09 boots, but certain devices fail to operate.? If I change the assign to: assign data_ext = (!r_w & (e | q) & !(tsc | ba) ? data_09 : 8'bz); or assign data_ext = (!r_w& !(tsc | ba) ? data_09 : 8'bz); The devices begin working. Either of the modified equations works, but I don't know if can safely place data on the external databus during the entire cycle, like the address lines, or if I need to be off the bus for some small portion of the cycle.? I was hoping the datasheets could help, but I am missing the key portion of the timing diagrams. I hope someone can enlighten me.? I have the system working, I just want to make it as good as possible. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com