From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jun 1 10:09:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 08:09:35 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> Message-ID: <58703cd5-4804-9f6b-6db4-5f1c9da0e2c7@bitsavers.org> On 5/30/18 7:09 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700? Today it may be easier just to get one of the inexpensive 16 channel USB analyzers with built-in i2c decoding like a DSLogic http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/order.html From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Jun 1 10:16:58 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 15:16:58 +0000 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: <58703cd5-4804-9f6b-6db4-5f1c9da0e2c7@bitsavers.org> References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> , <58703cd5-4804-9f6b-6db4-5f1c9da0e2c7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1527866220960.61965@w2hx.com> Wow. That is cheap. Anyone ever use it? What are its limitations in real world situations? ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 1, 2018 11:09 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B On 5/30/18 7:09 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700? Today it may be easier just to get one of the inexpensive 16 channel USB analyzers with built-in i2c decoding like a DSLogic http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/order.html From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 12:39:44 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:39:44 -0600 Subject: M6809E/63C09E databus behavior question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:48 PM, Jim Brain via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I agree this is very specific, but I thought perhaps someone could help. > > As I look at the '09 datasheets, I can't tell when the data lines become > valid on a write cycle. > In the MC68x09E datasheet, that is parameter 20, which is the from the rising edge of the Q clock to write data valid. In the HD68x09E datasheet, it is t(DDW) MC6809E: maximum 200ns MC68A09E: maximum 140ns MC68B09E: maximum 110ns HD63B09E: maximum 110ns HD63C09E: maximum 70ns Note that these times guarantee that as long as your clock timing is within specifications, the write data will be valid at least slightly before the rising edge of the E clock. If you need to know the specifically how much time the write data is valid before the rising edge of the E clock, you can derive that based on the clock frequency you're using. Either of the modified equations works, but I don't know if can safely > place data on the external databus during the entire cycle, like the > address lines, or if I need to be off the bus for some small portion of the > cycle. I was hoping the datasheets could help, but I am missing the key > portion of the timing diagrams. > If you drive the data bus too soon after the falling edge of E, you might have contention with whatever chip was driving the data bus in the previous cycle. I have never seen a design using a 6800/6500-style bus that depends on the write data being valid more than a few ns before the rising edge of E (phase 2 for 65xx). Best regards, Eric From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 12:40:46 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 11:40:46 -0600 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >Eric Smith wrote: > > >The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. > > > >All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or > >patch store. > > You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the > control store was entirely in RAM. After power on it was a paperweight > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. Thanks for the correction! I've never used those models. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Jun 1 13:46:53 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 19:46:53 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> Message-ID: <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> On 01/06/18 18:40, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > >>> Eric Smith wrote: >>> The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. >>> >>> All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or >>> patch store. >> You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the >> control store was entirely in RAM. After power on it was a paperweight >> until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > > Thanks for the correction! I've never used those models. > In the Digital Technical Journal #2 (the one that describes the development of the MicroVAX II) they say that they used the VAX-11/730 as a testbed the 78032 chip. The VAX-11/730 was chosen because it was "an entirely 'soft' machine". (The VAX-11/725 is essentially the same hardware but in different packaging). Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 17:51:54 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 00:51:54 +0200 Subject: Wonderland Message-ID: http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com DownTheBunker is open! features: - bazaar distiller doesn't require to register an account, it sums up Market place's items for sale or wanted in a nutshell - person-to-person trading in the Bazaar, you have to register an account in order to contact people - mini message-wall; doesn't log the IP and doesn't require you to register, can be used as a message in the bottle, or a mini chat - message-board. doesn't request to register but it logs the IP. It's more advanced and it can be used as mini Wiki - Chunks (of users/stuff) offers FTP-like with manuals and links to other sites bookmarks Durcheinander is an advanced area with the possibility for the (local, only from the local intranet) user to upload and execute JavaScripts, JavaAplette, Node.Js code, and Java bytecode. It's not yet safe enough to be open to the public Internet, and it stills needs to be hardened in its profile. Due to what happened in December 2017, cyber attacks destroying the whole website, it's a reserved chunk of priv? stealth rooms for the team, whose access from the Internet is reserved and features are reduced e.g. it checks the socket.connect.ip, and if it comes from outside the intranet it blocks the whole scripting-engine allowing just a plain text browsing. My participation to SGI is merely focused on my needs, as I'd like to port an HDL simulator to Irix. But I sold my Octane 1 year ago, and I am willing to sell my dual Tezro rack-mountable racks cause I lost enthusiasm. Anyway, does anyone happen to have a copy of an Ada95 compiler for Irix? Or a working copy of GNAT? Needed for IRIX >= 6.5.27 I will for sure sell the Tezro, Maybe I will reconsider the purchase of a tiny Octane. I am more focused on Linux/HPPA and Linux/PPC32, which are used for job tasks. At the moment. I am developing a fast FiberChannel ram-disk for the radio telescope. cheers From healyzh at avanthar.com Fri Jun 1 21:21:51 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 19:21:51 -0700 Subject: Wonderland In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Jun 1, 2018, at 3:51 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > Anyway, does anyone happen to have a copy of an Ada95 compiler for > Irix? Or a working copy of GNAT? Needed for IRIX >= 6.5.27 Does IRIX 6.5.27 break the SGI Ada95 compiler? I?m not actually sure what version of IRIX 6.5.xx my O2 is running. Zane From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jun 1 12:08:05 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 10:08:05 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> >Eric Smith wrote: >The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. > >All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or >patch store. You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the control store was entirely in RAM. After power on it was a paperweight until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. Bob From bob at jfcl.com Fri Jun 1 21:03:38 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 19:03:38 -0700 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? Message-ID: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x chips. Bob From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Fri Jun 1 21:46:56 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Fri, 1 Jun 2018 22:46:56 -0400 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? In-Reply-To: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> References: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> Message-ID: Bob, I checked my books, and don't have any of the Fairchild stuff left, passed em on a couple of years ago. Online, I think I hit the same ones you are talking about but including links just in case. I assume you have looked at the 1983 manual, pages 6-51 on with the notional system design and timing information thera on trailingedge http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1983_Fairchild_Microprocessor_Products.pdf And this - Fairchild 9445 Abstract: applications of microprocessor in printer FAIRCHILD A Schlumberger Company Advance Product Information PEP-45 Prototyping, Evaluation and Programming Board Microprocessor Product Description The Fairchild PEP-45 is a single-board microcomputer for , microprocessor. When used with the Fairchild System-I (FS-I) development system, the PEP-45 board provides , \is to 200 ms Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Microprocessor Division 3420 Central Expressway, Santa Clara, California 95051 (408) 773-1000 TWX MICPSNTA ??1982 Fairchild Printed in U.S.A http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=566d28bc51c3e262c0d26285cbc1828375f810&type=O&query=Fairchild+9445&manufacturer=&part= bob On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any > kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. > Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but > that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that > they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own > development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. > > In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called > (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. > I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be > interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x > chips. > > Bob > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 2 02:49:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 03:49:55 -0400 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? In-Reply-To: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> References: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> Message-ID: <163bf796974-c95-fcb3@webjas-vac075.srv.aolmail.net> sent? a? mag.? product announcement? over to hare? computer the other? day check? with him? ?for that. ? ? In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x chips. Bob From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 2 02:49:55 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 03:49:55 -0400 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? In-Reply-To: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> References: <001601d3fa15$ec658610$c5309230$@com> Message-ID: <163bf796974-c95-fcb3@webjas-vac075.srv.aolmail.net> sent? a? mag.? product announcement? over to hare? computer the other? day check? with him? ?for that. ? ? In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:19 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x chips. Bob From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 2 02:59:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 03:59:46 -0400 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163bf826bb1-c8f-3f1e@webjas-vad113.srv.aolmail.net> BOB? OK? REFOUND? AND? SET? YOU THE PRODUCT ANNOUNCE...? WEIRD? JUST HAPPENED? TO RUN ACROSS A? FEW? DAYS? AGO? ?ED#? WWW.SMECC.ORG?? ? ? In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Bob, I checked my books, and don't have any of the Fairchild stuff left, passed em on a couple of years ago. Online, I think I hit the same ones you are talking about but including links just in case. I assume you have looked at the 1983 manual, pages 6-51 on with the notional system design and timing information thera on trailingedge http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1983_Fairchild_Microprocessor_Products.pdf And this - Fairchild 9445 Abstract: applications of microprocessor in printer FAIRCHILD A Schlumberger Company Advance Product Information PEP-45 Prototyping, Evaluation and Programming Board Microprocessor Product Description The Fairchild PEP-45 is a single-board microcomputer for , microprocessor. When used with the Fairchild System-I (FS-I) development system, the PEP-45 board provides , \is to 200 ms Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Microprocessor Division 3420 Central Expressway, Santa Clara, California 95051 (408) 773-1000 TWX MICPSNTA ??1982 Fairchild Printed in U.S.A http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=566d28bc51c3e262c0d26285cbc1828375f810&type=O&query=Fairchild+9445&manufacturer=&part= bob On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any > kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. > Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but > that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that > they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own > development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. > > In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called > (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. > I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be > interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x > chips. > > Bob > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 2 02:59:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 03:59:46 -0400 Subject: Fairchild 9440/445 MicroFlame? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163bf826bb1-c8f-3f1e@webjas-vad113.srv.aolmail.net> BOB? OK? REFOUND? AND? SET? YOU THE PRODUCT ANNOUNCE...? WEIRD? JUST HAPPENED? TO RUN ACROSS A? FEW? DAYS? AGO? ?ED#? WWW.SMECC.ORG?? ? ? In a message dated 6/2/2018 12:21:26 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Bob, I checked my books, and don't have any of the Fairchild stuff left, passed em on a couple of years ago. Online, I think I hit the same ones you are talking about but including links just in case. I assume you have looked at the 1983 manual, pages 6-51 on with the notional system design and timing information thera on trailingedge http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/components/fairchild/_dataBooks/1983_Fairchild_Microprocessor_Products.pdf And this - Fairchild 9445 Abstract: applications of microprocessor in printer FAIRCHILD A Schlumberger Company Advance Product Information PEP-45 Prototyping, Evaluation and Programming Board Microprocessor Product Description The Fairchild PEP-45 is a single-board microcomputer for , microprocessor. When used with the Fairchild System-I (FS-I) development system, the PEP-45 board provides , \is to 200 ms Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Microprocessor Division 3420 Central Expressway, Santa Clara, California 95051 (408) 773-1000 TWX MICPSNTA ??1982 Fairchild Printed in U.S.A http://www.datasheetarchive.com/pdf/download.php?id=566d28bc51c3e262c0d26285cbc1828375f810&type=O&query=Fairchild+9445&manufacturer=&part= bob On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 10:03 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctech wrote: > I'm looking for manual scans, software, really any documentation of any > kind for the Fairchild F9440 or 9445 (aka the MicroFlame) microprocessors. > Yes, bitsavers and a few other places have datasheets for the chips, but > that's really about all the documentation I've found. And yes, I know that > they're Nova clones and can run DG software, but Fairchild had their own > development tools too that seem to have disappeared completely. > > In particular, Fairchild had a single board computer for the 9445 called > (I think) the PEP-45. It had a built in EPROM monitor called PEPBUG-45. > I'd love to find manuals and schematics for that gizmo. Actually I'd be > interested in documentation for any systems that used either of the 944x > chips. > > Bob > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 05:35:46 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:35:46 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 6:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >>Eric Smith wrote: > >>The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. >> >>All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny WCS or >>patch store. > > You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the > control store was entirely in RAM. After power on it was a paperweight Indeed. I think others mentioned that processor too.. For some reason the control store was built from 16K DRAMs, and the CPU has to wait while they are refreshed every few milliseconds. > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers, but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the microcode onto). Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those, but I've never found it. -tony From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 07:36:02 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 14:36:02 +0200 Subject: M68020-PGA to M68EC020-PGA Message-ID: hi I am playing with an old Motorola board and I have a problem As you well know, the 68020 is a 32-bit microprocessor from Motorola, released in 1984. Motorola also manufactured MC68EC020 - embedded version of the MC68020 CPU, housed in different packages than the Motorola 68020 microprocessor, but even in the case of PGA package of 114-pin PGA, MC68020/PGA is not pin-to-pin compatible with M68EC020/PGA They both use 114-pin PGA package, but some pins are different, (Vcc and gnd are placed differenly in the pinout), and you need an adapter! My board's socket is designed for M68EC020, but I need to use a M68020 chip because only the goldcap version, i.e. MC68020RC33 114-pin ceramic PGA, is available at 33Mhz. Code: Select allCPU: MC68020 114-pin PGA ----[adapter] ---> socket: MC68EC020 114-pin PGA Do you happen to know *where* I can find an adaptor M68020-PGA to M68EC020 PGA? Do you happen to have for sale? here I am Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 2 13:26:36 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:26:36 -0700 Subject: Whence 556? Message-ID: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> List: This is one that's bothered me for most of my adult life. As you may or may not know, there were three industry standard densities for 7 track 1/2" tape: 200, 556 and finally 800 cpi/bpi. So 200 and 800 are nice decimal multiples of 10. But 556 doesn't fit that pattern--it's not a "nice' number, being the product of 4 and 139 and doesn't correspond to any computer-related characteristics that I know of. It's not metric. So why 556 and not 400, 512 or 600? There's got to be a story there, somewhere. I think the 556 density came in around the 1401/7090 time with the 729 II. Anyone know the story? --Chuck From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Sat Jun 2 13:37:11 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2018 11:37:11 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Tony Duell wrote: > > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > > Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not > running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers, > but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the > microcode onto). I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in my storage unit. I might even have some brand new tapes. If I can find them, I would be happy to send them to you. They have been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no guarantee that they are readable. I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them. Alan "Pack rat" Frisbie From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:42:47 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 18:42:47 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> References: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On 06/02/2018 02:37 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > > > > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > > > > Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not > > running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive > rollers, > > but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the > > microcode onto). > > I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in > my storage unit.?? I might even have some brand new tapes.?? If I > can find them, I would be happy to send them to you.?? They have > been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no > guarantee that they are readable. > > I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for > moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them. > Ages ago I had a set as well (might still be here somewhere, but I doubt it). I offered it various places and got no takers.? In most cases the conversations merely morphed into discussions about what crap the physical tapes and drives were. bill From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:43:30 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:43:30 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> References: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie wrote: > Tony Duell wrote: > >> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. >> >> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not >> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive >> rollers, >> but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the >> microcode onto). > > I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in > my storage unit. I might even have some brand new tapes. If I > can find them, I would be happy to send them to you. They have > been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no > guarantee that they are readable. Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone TU58 I have. You do realise that I am across the Pond, I hope :-). I am happy to cover postage and packing expenses, of course. > I'm cleaning out the storage unit right now, in preparation for > moving, so I'll keep an eye out for them. When I moved house 3.5 years ago, it took _5_ large removal lorries to carry everything. Oh well... -tony From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 2 13:45:29 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 12:45:29 -0600 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie > wrote: > > Tony Duell wrote: > > > >> > until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. > >> > >> Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not > >> running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive > >> rollers, > >> but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the > >> microcode onto). > > > > I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in > > my storage unit. I might even have some brand new tapes. If I > > can find them, I would be happy to send them to you. They have > > been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no > > guarantee that they are readable. > > Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem > I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at > the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's > much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone > TU58 I have. > Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58 emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730... Then again, maybe there's no market for that. Warner From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:47:36 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:47:36 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:45 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58 > emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730... > > Then again, maybe there's no market for that. Oh, I think there are. I belive you can use something like an RPi, read the files off an SD card. It's only an asynchronous serial interface between the TU58 and the VAX after all. But I don't want to have more components in the emulator than in the rest of the CPU.... -tony From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sat Jun 2 14:53:33 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 19:53:33 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <5B12E3D7.4050900@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On 06/02/2018 02:45 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 12:43 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: On Sat, Jun 2, 2018 at 7:37 PM, Alan Frisbie wrote: Tony Duell wrote: until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. Loaded from a TU58 cartridge, which is the main reason my 11/730 is not running at the moment. The hardware is fine, I've rebuilt the drive rollers, but as yet don't have a readable tape (not even blank, to write the microcode onto). I'm pretty sure that I have a complete set of 11/730 TU58 tapes in my storage unit. I might even have some brand new tapes. If I can find them, I would be happy to send them to you. They have been sitting in storage for probably 20 years, so there are no guarantee that they are readable. Thanks... I will certanly give them a go. I am pretty sure the problem I am having is the tape, I get a low (and varying) amplitude signal at the output of the read amplifier, it varies with different tapes, and it's much the same both on the drive in the 11/730 and a standalone TU58 I have. Given the vagaries of tape, I'm surprised nobody has made a simple TU58 emulator that can feed the proper microcode bits to the 11/730... Then again, maybe there's no market for that. There are TU58 emulators: https://www.torok.info/computing/pdp11/tu58/ https://www.ak6dn.com/PDP-11/TU58/tu58em/ retrocmp.com/tools/tu58fs bill From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 09:17:06 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 10:17:06 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 06/01/2018 02:46 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote: > On 01/06/18 18:40, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Robert Armstrong wrote: >> >>>> Eric Smith wrote: >>>> The control stores of the 11/785, 8600, and 8650 were entirely WCS. >>>> >>>> All other VAXen had (relatively) large ROM control store and tiny >>>> WCS or >>>> patch store. >>> ?? You forgot the 11/730 and 725.? The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers >>> and the >>> control store was entirely in RAM.? After power on it was a paperweight >>> until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. >> >> Thanks for the correction! I've never used those models. >> > > In the Digital Technical Journal #2 (the one that describes the > development of the MicroVAX II) > > they say that they used the VAX-11/730 as a testbed > > the 78032 chip. The VAX-11/730 was chosen because it was "an entirely > 'soft' machine". > > > (The VAX-11/725 is essentially the same hardware but in different > packaging). > > > Antonio > > It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited (really limited) microcode enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) and the 730 had to unpack and stuff the WCS.? You need little to do that but far from even PDP11 instruction set. The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff". Allison From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 11:28:19 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 17:28:19 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited > (really limited) microcode > enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) > and the 730 had to > unpack and stuff the WCS. You need little to do that but far from even > PDP11 instruction set. > The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff". I don't think so. There's an 8085 'console processor' on one of the CPU boards (I am not talking about the 8085 in the TU58, which is also there). This processor runs a program from its ROM that talks to the console port and also to the TU58. It loads the microcode from the TU58 and writes it to the VAX control store RAM, and then starts the VAX runnng. I can find no microcode ROMs in the printset, technical manual or on the PCBs themselves. -tony From bob at jfcl.com Sat Jun 2 13:08:57 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:08:57 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> Message-ID: <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> > Tony Duell wrote: >Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those, >but I've never found it. I thought that DEC had a whole microcode development suite for the 730 to support customer written extensions to the microcode, but I've never seen it nor any documentation for it. If such a thing did exist then I seriously doubt anybody ever bought it. The 730 was never a super popular machine to start with, and the market for a customized version would have been very small. I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation of some kind, and that they used that internally for development 'cause it was faster than a real -8. I've not idea if that's true, but it would be cool if they did. And no, I'm not talking about PDP-11 compatibility mode - even the stock 730 had that (all the 7xx VAXes did, I believe). Certainly if you had the right tools and the right knowledge, it would have been easy to modify and replace the 730's microcode with something of your own. Just copy the binary images to the console tape and reboot. Bob From cramcram at gmail.com Sat Jun 2 13:51:39 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 11:51:39 -0700 Subject: Logic Analyzer software for the HP-IB/RS-232 bus pre-processor HP 10342B In-Reply-To: <58703cd5-4804-9f6b-6db4-5f1c9da0e2c7@bitsavers.org> References: <7513328342D44150B4BFF61B1752ADB1@workshop> <543AB4FD-8606-4155-9B3F-4C5F7C496029@gmail.com> <58703cd5-4804-9f6b-6db4-5f1c9da0e2c7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Oh I know that. At work we have several different types. USBee, Total Phase, etc. They all seem to have various flaws, the most common of which is lack of ground isolation in USB based models. Just seems like a curious omission from their repertoire of post analyzers. Marc On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 8:09 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 5/30/18 7:09 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: > > Was there ever an I2C decoder created for the 16500/16700? > > Today it may be easier just to get one of the inexpensive 16 channel USB > analyzers with built-in i2c decoding > like a DSLogic > > http://www.dreamsourcelab.com/order.html > > > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Jun 2 15:33:43 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 2 Jun 2018 21:33:43 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <50937a2b-fae9-355a-d5a2-6650e54e352d@ntlworld.com> On 02/06/18 15:17, allison via cctech wrote: > > It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited > (really limited) microcode > enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) > and the 730 had to > unpack and stuff the WCS.? You need little to do that but far from even > PDP11 instruction set. > The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff". > > Allison > Well something has to load the ucode but whether that's a fixed part of ucode itself or whether it's a hardware state machine (or something) that feeds the loaded ucode into the appropriate RAM, I don't know. I've never delved that deeply into the relevant FMP sets. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 2 18:23:38 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 02 Jun 2018 18:23:38 -0500 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <50937a2b-fae9-355a-d5a2-6650e54e352d@ntlworld.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> <50937a2b-fae9-355a-d5a2-6650e54e352d@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5B1326FA.7080707@pico-systems.com> On 06/02/2018 03:33 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctech wrote: > On 02/06/18 15:17, allison via cctech wrote: >> >> It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was >> limited >> (really limited) microcode >> enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device >> (standard tu58) >> and the 730 had to >> unpack and stuff the WCS. You need little to do that but >> far from even >> PDP11 instruction set. >> The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff". >> >> Allison >> > > Well something has to load the ucode but whether that's a > fixed part of ucode itself or whether > it's a hardware state machine (or something) that feeds > the loaded ucode into the appropriate > RAM, I don't know. I've never delved that deeply into the > relevant FMP sets. > Actually, the 8085 could load a small bootloader from 8085 ROM to the 730 microcode. That would be the most logical way to do it, assuming the microcode bootloader was really small. The IBM 360/25 had all microcode in the top 16K of main core memory, and the emulator of your choice could be loaded from binary punch cards. The microcode bootloader was hand-loaded through the front panel switches, and occupied 16 16-bit words. Jon From john at forecast.name Sun Jun 3 10:32:51 2018 From: john at forecast.name (John Forecast) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 11:32:51 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: <92B71CFF-D915-4C8E-A6EC-2A0ACD5D173F@forecast.name> > On Jun 2, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >> memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those, >> but I've never found it. > > I thought that DEC had a whole microcode development suite for the 730 to support customer written extensions to the microcode, but I've never seen it nor any documentation for it. If such a thing did exist then I seriously doubt anybody ever bought it. The 730 was never a super popular machine to start with, and the market for a customized version would have been very small. > > I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation of some kind, and that they used that internally for development 'cause it was faster than a real -8. I've not idea if that's true, but it would be cool if they did. And no, I'm not talking about PDP-11 compatibility mode - even the stock 730 had that (all the 7xx VAXes did, I believe). > That would be Ritchie Lary?s microcode implementation for the PDP-11/60 with WCS. John. > Certainly if you had the right tools and the right knowledge, it would have been easy to modify and replace the 730's microcode with something of your own. Just copy the binary images to the console tape and reboot. > > Bob > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sun Jun 3 13:17:22 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 19:17:22 +0100 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: On 02/06/18 19:08, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> Tony Duell wrote: >> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >> memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those, >> but I've never found it. > I thought that DEC had a whole microcode development suite for the 730 to support customer written extensions to the microcode, but I've never seen it nor any documentation for it. If such a thing did exist then I seriously doubt anybody ever bought it. The 730 was never a super popular machine to start with, and the market for a customized version would have been very small. > > I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation of some kind, and that they used that internally for development 'cause it was faster than a real -8. I've not idea if that's true, but it would be cool if they did. And no, I'm not talking about PDP-11 compatibility mode - even the stock 730 had that (all the 7xx VAXes did, I believe). > > Certainly if you had the right tools and the right knowledge, it would have been easy to modify and replace the 730's microcode with something of your own. Just copy the binary images to the console tape and reboot. There was "VAX-11/780 Microprogramming Tools User's Guide" but I don't know if there was ever one for the VAX-11/730. From reading the DTJ article it seems as though there was no set of neatly pre-packaged ucode development tools for the 730. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From tshoppa at wmata.com Sun Jun 3 12:34:37 2018 From: tshoppa at wmata.com (Shoppa, Tim) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 17:34:37 +0000 Subject: Whence 556? Message-ID: The 729 CE manual quotes 555 BPI. I?m not sure when it became 556. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/magtape/729/223-6845_729_CEman_1959.pdf The IBM 728 was 248 BPI. Before that it was the nice round number 200 BPI. I tried permutations of standard IPS and round number data rates and don?t see anything that yields exactly 556BPI. Tim From bob at jfcl.com Sun Jun 3 12:58:06 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 10:58:06 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <50937a2b-fae9-355a-d5a2-6650e54e352d@ntlworld.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> <50937a2b-fae9-355a-d5a2-6650e54e352d@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <001201d3fb64$6cf4cbc0$46de6340$@com> On 02/06/18 15:17, allison via cctech wrote: > > It was my understanding from using the 730 that there was limited > (really limited) microcode > enough to load the WCS as the tu58 was a serial device (standard tu58) > and the 730 had to > unpack and stuff the WCS.? You need little to do that but far from even > PDP11 instruction set. > The Microcode was loaded was the "what made it a VAX stuff". > > Allison What you're describing is the 750, not the 730. Unlike the 78x and 730/725, the 750 had no console front end processor. The microcode did it all, including loading any additional microcode from TU58. As others have said, the 730 had an 8085 CFE processor that loaded all the VAX microcode. The main CPU had no ROMs and could do absolutely nothing until the CFE loaded the microcode. FWIW, the CFE in the 730 had a 2K ROM and (I think) about 8K of RAM. The first thing the CFE did after power on, before it did anything with the VAX CPU, was to load the rest of the 8085 code from the TU58 into that CFE RAM. The 2K of ROM had just enough code to type characters on the console and to talk to the TU58, and even the CFE couldn't really do much until the rest of its code was loaded from the TU58. Once that was done, the CFE command line interpreter executed a script (one of four possible ones, depending on the HW configuration) and that script had the CFE commands to load the VAX microcode. FWIW, when you first turn on the 730 it types "CONV11" on the console, followed by the rest of the startup dialog. If you pay attention, there's a tiny pause between the "CON" and the "V11". That's because the first part was typed by the 8085 ROM just to let you know that the CFE was alive, and the version number was actually typed by the RAM part of the CFE code after it was loaded from the tape. Bob From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jun 3 17:47:55 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 15:47:55 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: On 6/3/18 11:17 AM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > From reading the DTJ article it seems as though there was no set of neatly pre-packaged ucode development tools for the > 730. and the 730 started out in life as a PDP-10 (Minnow) From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 3 19:36:36 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:36:36 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: > On Jun 2, 2018, at 2:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > >> Tony Duell wrote: >> Incidentally, did DEC ever release any details (flowcharts, source listings, >> etc) of the 11/730 microcode? And what about the control PROMs for the >> memory system. The technical manual implies there was a listing of those, >> but I've never found it. > > I thought that DEC had a whole microcode development suite for the 730 to support customer written extensions to the microcode, but I've never seen it nor any documentation for it. If such a thing did exist then I seriously doubt anybody ever bought it. The 730 was never a super popular machine to start with, and the market for a customized version would have been very small. Considering that the 730 was a 2901 based machine, and 2901s were widely used, presumably the tools were not a problem around DEC. Perhaps they tweaked the UDA50 microcode toolchain? > I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation of some kind, and that they used that internally for development 'cause it was faster than a real -8. I've not idea if that's true, but it would be cool if they did. And no, I'm not talking about PDP-11 compatibility mode - even the stock 730 had that (all the 7xx VAXes did, I believe). The PDP-8 emulation used for internal PDP-8 software development was on an 11/60 running RSTS/E, I remember that system in the lab in DEC Merrimack (MKO1-1). I would imagine it could have been done on a 730 also but chances are the 11/60 was a whole lot faster. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:36:02 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 22:36:02 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > You forgot the 11/730 and 725. The KA730 used 2901 bit slicers and the control store was entirely in RAM. After power on it was a paperweight until the 8085 CFE loaded the microcode. And one of the big optimizations was to cut a fresh console boot tape with all the required files in sequential order because the 8085 would cache the directory block (thankfully!) so it didn't have to rewind between reading each file. The stock tape was rather random and could take 20-30 min of shoeshining. Putting the files in order brought the boot times down to 10 min or less of console load - i.e. - essentially the serial transfer speed of that many kbytes, or close to it. Today, of course, I would seriously think about a TU58 emulator. There are several projects. -ethan From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Jun 3 21:37:36 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 22:37:36 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 1, 2018 at 2:46 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > the 78032 chip. The VAX-11/730 was chosen because it was "an entirely 'soft' > machine". > > (The VAX-11/725 is essentially the same hardware but in different > packaging). We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our 11/730 running. Much cheaper because "nobody" wanted an 11/725 in the early 90s (I still have one. I wish I could afford a Unibus controller to replace the KLESI/U and RC25). -ethan From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Jun 3 22:31:00 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 20:31:00 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7B9B1C26-5FCC-4999-A5B3-4DC72401BBDA@nf6x.net> > On Jun 3, 2018, at 7:37 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our 11/730 running. > Much cheaper because "nobody" wanted an 11/725 in the early 90s (I > still have one. I wish I could afford a Unibus controller to replace > the KLESI/U and RC25). Back around the early 1990s, a friend of mine had an 11/725 and an 11/730 in his apartment. One of then had a bad PROM chip, so he could only run one at a time. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 01:38:47 2018 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2018 23:38:47 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: <163794d2-59b4-0e70-3c09-60faec1c0566@gmail.com> On 5/30/2018 7:34 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctalk wrote: > The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was > used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as > a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way > you can use MICRO2 to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. Years ago I was playing the the microcode of the DEC Minnow (PDP-10) which was written in MICRO2 - but I don't think I ever found that assembler. Do MICRO2 executables exists? Rob. From microtechdart at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:10:01 2018 From: microtechdart at gmail.com (AJ Palmgren) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 00:10:01 -0700 Subject: Assessing Plastibands for QIC Tension Band Replacement Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I just published a few videos showing my testing of PlastiBands for QIC Tape Cartridge replacement. https://youtu.be/irOrR-ZYwjw and https://youtu.be/GVsYHLvCvZY A special thank you to CuriousMarc, Al Kossow, and Chuck(G) for their help, leadership and inspiration in this area! And my page dedicated to QIC Tension Bands... http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/drive-belts.html As always, I welcome feedback, and hope this is of value to some here. Best always, -AJ -- Thanks, AJ Palmgren http://QICreader.com From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 02:39:59 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 08:39:59 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002701d3fbd7$401e14d0$c05a3e70$@gmail.com> > > Either way, COOL!!! > > > > It sounds like you're doing some good computer archaeology / > preservation. > > Just to say I now have a bootable copy of the OS on SD card. I got caught out because OS2 wildcarding works like UNIX wild carding, not MSDOS wild carding. So in order to back up the "C" drive you need "XCOPY C:\* ...". I instinctively used "*.*" which misses out a whole bunch of files, especially those used by the code page conversion routines. Whilst it boots cleanly (and quietly). The machine is noticeably slower on SD card so I think I might have to try a RAID or other fast/wide SCSI solution once I have good backups of the other drives. > OI think there are plenty of P390 boxes around, and most of the software is > available, but its interesting to a Mainframe OS on real hardware. > The Hercules emulator on a modern (Core i3 or Core I5) PC is much faster > than the P390. > > > > > > > -- > > Grant. . . . > > unix || die > > Dave Dave From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 05:57:21 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 12:57:21 +0200 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <002701d3fbd7$401e14d0$c05a3e70$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> <5ec68c25-3fb9-821c-8110-0253e25042c0@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <02dd01d3f538$f7f3cc80$e7db6580$@gmail.com> <002701d3fbd7$401e14d0$c05a3e70$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2018 at 09:40, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: > Just to say I now have a bootable copy of the OS on SD card. Well done! > I got caught out because OS2 wildcarding works like UNIX wild carding, not MSDOS wild carding. > So in order to back up the "C" drive you need "XCOPY C:\* ...". I instinctively used "*.*" which misses out a whole bunch of files, especially those used by the code page conversion routines. I did not know that. O_o Getting a Thinkpad running OS/2 is still on my to-do list... > Whilst it boots cleanly (and quietly). The machine is noticeably slower on SD card so I think I might have to try a RAID or other fast/wide SCSI solution once I have good backups of the other drives. That's very surprising. Might CF be quicker than SD? CF is a PATA bus, SD is a multiplexed serial (or nearly) bus, AIUI. Failing that, there are 2 real-SSD options: either: [1] PATA SSD -- they still exist but they're relatively expensive. [2] an MSATA SSD in a PATA convertor. Small MSATA drives are cheap -- I bought 64GB for ~?30 last autumn -- and the convertor cradles are about a tenner. That only leaves the problem of getting a PS/2 to talk to IDE... ;-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bob at jfcl.com Mon Jun 4 12:17:29 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 10:17:29 -0700 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <006401d3fc27$eb0ae440$c120acc0$@com> > Ethan Dicks wrote: >We used to purchase 11/725s for parts to keep our 11/730 running. I remember when the 725 first came out. I was working for DEC at the time, and up until then the only VAXes I'd ever seen were 780s. Somebody rolled this little end table sized thing into the lab and said "Here - this is a VAX." I was flabbergasted - a VAX?!? In a box that small??? No way!! I kept it by my desk until the MicroVAX-II came out. By then I was getting pretty tired of it. Still, the 725 and 730 are the smallest UNIBUS VAXes ever made, which ought to earn them some kind of recognition. FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, which never worked even when they were new. It needs the skins for the chassis, though - the previous owner used it as a test system. He never put the cover back on it and eventually lost that part. If anybody has a 725 chassis and would be willing to part with some of the sheet metal, let me know! Bob From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jun 4 12:38:55 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 12:38:55 -0500 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <12d6893a-b7c1-5573-2c63-633ca5a707db@charter.net> On 5/26/2018 3:15 PM, Dave Wade via cctech wrote: > Folks, > > > > Well in case any one has the slightest bit of interest, I have now plugged > the RAID card back in and after replacing on of the drive carriers I can get > five of the six drives to spin up. Its now copying stuff to my Buffalo NAS > but as its 10Mbit LAN its not terribly fast. I think the NAS isn't very fast > either. It looks like zipping up the files and FTPing the ZIP files might be > the quickest way to go. > > > > Dave > > > > From: Dave Wade > Sent: 18 May 2018 22:31 > To: 'Benjamin Huntsman' ; 'General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > I thought I had captioned that picture. It's the original RAID controller > which I am not using. If I plug it in it starts the disks in the RAID array > which takes ages, and steals the hard disk BIOS vector which I need for the > SCSI card that's running the system. > > I didn't want to remove it fully as I need to label the cables feeding it. > One feeds the top drive bays, and the other the bottom so if I ever need to > put it back it I need to know which is which. > > If I get some free time I will have a go at starting the disks in it and > repairing the RAID array, and perhaps copy the disks that are installed. > > > > Dave > > > > > > From: Benjamin Huntsman > > Sent: 18 May 2018 21:49 > To: Dave Wade >; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > I gotta ask, what's the deal with the dangling card? That cracked me up! > > > > Thanks for posting some pics! > > > > _____ > > From: cctalk > on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk > > > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46 PM > To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 >> To: Dave Wade >; > General Discussion: On-Topic >> and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 >> >> >> >>> On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > >> wrote: >>> >>> >>> That's, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE > Controllers >> I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so > every >> thing must be on the MCA bus. >>> So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an > Adaptec >> card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple > SCSI/2 card, >> no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a >>> 4GB drive option. >>> OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks > find >> the drive and install the proper drivers. >>> To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card > that >> puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives >> depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The > card >> in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. > The CD >> ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. >>> >> > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display > resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. > > I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- > > https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 > > > > > P390 > > flic.kr > > Explore this photo album by Dave G4UGM on Flickr! > > > > > next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. > > Dave > >> Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC > files). I >> went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I >> kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. >> >> I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I'll install AIX > on and >> have an R/390. ;-) I haven't had the time yet to make any progress on > it. >> >> But it's good to know that you've managed to do this if I decide to go > back >> and attempt the PC route again. >> >> TTFN - Guy > > I used Clonezilla to make an image of my PCI machien with a P/390E card to a USB drive - but in your case that would, of course, require it to recognize your RAID array (which it just might, if the BIOS recognizes it). From RichA at livingcomputers.org Mon Jun 4 13:20:03 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 18:20:03 +0000 Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7051f84f71cb4a8f8d55bd677f8c652b@livingcomputers.org> From: Shoppa, Tim Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2018 10:35 AM > The 729 CE manual quotes 555 BPI. I?m not sure when it became 556. > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/magtape/729/223-6845_729_CEman_1959.pdf > The IBM 728 was 248 BPI. Before that it was the nice round number 200 BPI. > I tried permutations of standard IPS and round number data rates and don?t > see anything that yields exactly 556BPI. Just to add to the mists and smoke and chaos: For decades, I remembered the lowest density for magnetic tapes as 225 bits/in, not 200. I have never been able to find the number "225" in any manual since starting the project which became the museum 15 years ago (sob!), but it still hangs around in my mind and pings whenever I see "200BPI" mentioned. Anyone else ever encounter that? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 4 16:13:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 17:13:41 -0400 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <006401d3fc27$eb0ae440$c120acc0$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <456ad545-fda9-4015-e635-07d8f1008a40@ntlworld.com> <006401d3fc27$eb0ae440$c120acc0$@com> Message-ID: <1560106F-438F-4C50-988F-9704DC168467@comcast.net> > On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > > ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, which never worked even when they were new. Hm. I remember some RC25s on RSTS, and they seemed to be ok. The fact that they had two drives on one motor made it strange, especially if the fixed platter was your system device. We had to teach the OS how to deal with SY: going away temporarily. It did make for nice compact systems, which was important when we got an order for a pile of RSTS systems that would be installed on board submarines. Or so we were told. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jun 4 16:15:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 14:15:01 -0700 Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: <7051f84f71cb4a8f8d55bd677f8c652b@livingcomputers.org> References: <7051f84f71cb4a8f8d55bd677f8c652b@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: On 06/04/2018 11:20 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > For decades, I remembered the lowest density for magnetic tapes as 225 bits/in, > not 200. I have never been able to find the number "225" in any manual since > starting the project which became the museum 15 years ago (sob!), but it still > hangs around in my mind and pings whenever I see "200BPI" mentioned. Nope. I've seen 248 mentioned and I have period-specific tapes that are declared to be 200 bpi on the label and then there's this: http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/604/604.htm Note the density indicators on this panel from a CDC 604. --Chuck From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Jun 4 18:58:36 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 16:58:36 -0700 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS Message-ID: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> While cleaning out my office, I found a brand new, unopened copy of WRQ Reflection 4+ version 5.0 for DOS. It provides (per the box): Accurate emulation of Digital VT340, VT320, VT220, VT241, VT102, and VT52 terminals, with VT420 features. Windows-like interface with pull-down menus and dialog boxes. 132-column display with EGA, VGA, or special video adapters. Full keyboard mapping and mouse support. Etc., etc., etc. If anyone wants it, just let me know and I'll send it to you in exchange for the cost of postage (weighs 8 pounds). Otherwise I will toss it in the recycle bin next week. Alan "Pack Rat" Frisbie From jim at deitygraveyard.com Mon Jun 4 19:26:55 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 20:26:55 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> References: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: On 06/04/2018 07:58 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > While cleaning out my office, I found a brand new, unopened copy > of WRQ Reflection 4+ version 5.0 for DOS.?? It provides (per the > box): > > ? Accurate emulation of Digital VT340, VT320, VT220, VT241, VT102, > ? and VT52 terminals, with VT420 features. > > ? Windows-like interface with pull-down menus and dialog boxes. > > ? 132-column display with EGA, VGA, or special video adapters. > > ? Full keyboard mapping and mouse support. > > ? Etc., etc., etc. > > If anyone wants it, just let me know and I'll send it to you in > exchange for the cost of postage (weighs 8 pounds).?? Otherwise > I will toss it in the recycle bin next week. > > Alan "Pack Rat" Frisbie I'll take it! How much for shipping to 02762? How would you like to be paid? Jim Carpenter 6 Munroe Drive Plainville, MA 02762 From mazzinia at tin.it Mon Jun 4 19:35:14 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 02:35:14 +0200 Subject: R: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> References: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <00e501d3fc65$127ffaf0$377ff0d0$@tin.it> I think that you forgot to say where you are -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Alan Frisbie via cctalk Inviato: marted? 5 giugno 2018 01:59 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS While cleaning out my office, I found a brand new, unopened copy of WRQ Reflection 4+ version 5.0 for DOS. It provides (per the box): Accurate emulation of Digital VT340, VT320, VT220, VT241, VT102, and VT52 terminals, with VT420 features. Windows-like interface with pull-down menus and dialog boxes. 132-column display with EGA, VGA, or special video adapters. Full keyboard mapping and mouse support. Etc., etc., etc. If anyone wants it, just let me know and I'll send it to you in exchange for the cost of postage (weighs 8 pounds). Otherwise I will toss it in the recycle bin next week. Alan "Pack Rat" Frisbie From Flash688 at flying-disk.com Mon Jun 4 20:09:15 2018 From: Flash688 at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Mon, 04 Jun 2018 18:09:15 -0700 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> References: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <5B15E2BB.9060403@flying-disk.com> To estimate postage, I am in Los Angeles, California. Since several people have already indicated interest, I will wait until the digest goes out tomorrow to give those people a chance. Then I will put the names in a hat and have my wife draw one. I'm very happy that I won't have to toss this in the recycle bin! Alan On 06/04/2018 04:58 PM, Alan Frisbie wrote: > While cleaning out my office, I found a brand new, unopened copy > of WRQ Reflection 4+ version 5.0 for DOS. It provides (per the > box): > > Accurate emulation of Digital VT340, VT320, VT220, VT241, VT102, > and VT52 terminals, with VT420 features. > > Windows-like interface with pull-down menus and dialog boxes. > > 132-column display with EGA, VGA, or special video adapters. > > Full keyboard mapping and mouse support. > > Etc., etc., etc. > > If anyone wants it, just let me know and I'll send it to you in > exchange for the cost of postage (weighs 8 pounds). Otherwise > I will toss it in the recycle bin next week. > > Alan "Pack Rat" Frisbie > From jim at deitygraveyard.com Mon Jun 4 20:56:18 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 21:56:18 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <5B15E2BB.9060403@flying-disk.com> References: <5B15D22C.1050500@flying-disk.com> <5B15E2BB.9060403@flying-disk.com> Message-ID: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> On 06/04/2018 09:09 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > To estimate postage, I am in Los Angeles, California. > > Since several people have already indicated interest, I will wait > until the digest goes out tomorrow to give those people a chance. > Then I will put the names in a hat and have my wife draw one. > > I'm very happy that I won't have to toss this in the recycle bin! > Hopefully the winner will be kind enough to help out others. I didn't even know there was a version 5 for DOS, although I knew there was for Windows 3. Anyone happen to know what the very last version for DOS/Windows 3.x was? Jim From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 23:25:55 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 21:25:55 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales Message-ID: Hi Folks. I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The introductory page is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". New items have been added and are listed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are listed, which will occur more regularly. As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Mon Jun 4 23:38:03 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 4 Jun 2018 21:38:03 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Correction to URLs: The introductory page for my Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0&range=A1 New items are listed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 Forgive me for the foo paux. Sellam On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hi Folks. > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > introductory page is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From lars at nocrew.org Tue Jun 5 00:15:43 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2018 05:15:43 +0000 Subject: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <163794d2-59b4-0e70-3c09-60faec1c0566@gmail.com> (Rob Doyle via cctalk's message of "Sun, 3 Jun 2018 23:38:47 -0700") References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <163794d2-59b4-0e70-3c09-60faec1c0566@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7wh8mhhkzk.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Rob Doyle wrote: > Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> The microcode for the MicroVAX 2 (for which the MICRO2 assembler was >> used) and the CVAX (which is the CPU in your 3800) is implemented as >> a mask ROM on the CPU chip itself. No way to change it, and no way >> you can use MICRO2 to assemble the microcode for the CVAX. > > Years ago I was playing the the microcode of the DEC Minnow (PDP-10) > which was written in MICRO2 - but I don't think I ever found that > assembler. > > Do MICRO2 executables exists? In ITS, there are two versions of the microcode assembler. The older one was used for the KL10, and the newer one for KS10. I suppose the KL10 version came from DEC and was originally written in MACRO10, but then rewritten for MIDAS by ITS hackers. Then it was extended for the KS10. According to the comments above, MICRO2 would have been used for both PDP-10 and VAX microcode. So I wonder if it was written in MACRO10 or MACRO32? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 5 03:29:09 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 10:29:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> References: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > So 200 and 800 are nice decimal multiples of 10. But 556 doesn't fit > that pattern--it's not a "nice' number, being the product of 4 and 139 > and doesn't correspond to any computer-related characteristics that I > know of. It's not metric. So why 556 and not 400, 512 or 600? Just a guess, but 556 kHz is 5 MHz divided by 9. Christian From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jun 5 04:35:32 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 05:35:32 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> Message-ID: <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> please add smecc museum to the list. what a find.... this,will help for a treminSal for our hp 3000 37.. thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC... coury house/smecc attn ed Sharpe archivistI 5802 w palmaire ave glendale, AZ 85301 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, June 4, 2018 Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: On 06/04/2018 09:09 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > To estimate postage, I am in Los Angeles, California. > > Since several people have already indicated interest, I will wait > until the digest goes out tomorrow to give those people a chance. > Then I will put the names in a hat and have my wife draw one. > > I'm very happy that I won't have to toss this in the recycle bin! > Hopefully the winner will be kind enough to help out others. I didn't even know there was a version 5 for DOS, although I knew there was for Windows 3. Anyone happen to know what the very last version for DOS/Windows 3.x was? Jim From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Jun 5 05:08:54 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 06:08:54 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018, 5:35 AM Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > please add smecc museum to the list. what a find.... this,will help for a > treminSal for our hp 3000 37.. thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC... Reflection 1 was the one for HP stuff. > From mazzinia at tin.it Tue Jun 5 06:23:54 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:23:54 +0200 Subject: R: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> So, more recent versions lost the ability to interact with older (niche now) hardware ? Interesting... -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Ed Sharpe via cctalk Inviato: marted? 5 giugno 2018 11:36 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: Re: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS please add smecc museum to the list. what a find.... this,will help for a treminSal for our hp 3000 37.. thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC... coury house/smecc attn ed Sharpe archivistI 5802 w palmaire ave glendale, AZ 85301 Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Monday, June 4, 2018 Jim Carpenter via cctalk wrote: On 06/04/2018 09:09 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > To estimate postage, I am in Los Angeles, California. > > Since several people have already indicated interest, I will wait > until the digest goes out tomorrow to give those people a chance. > Then I will put the names in a hat and have my wife draw one. > > I'm very happy that I won't have to toss this in the recycle bin! > Hopefully the winner will be kind enough to help out others. I didn't even know there was a version 5 for DOS, although I knew there was for Windows 3. Anyone happen to know what the very last version for DOS/Windows 3.x was? Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 07:07:55 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 08:07:55 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> Message-ID: > > On Monday, June 4, 2018 Jim Carpenter via cctalk > wrote: > On 06/04/2018 09:09 PM, Alan Frisbie via cctalk wrote: > > To estimate postage, I am in Los Angeles, California. > > > > Since several people have already indicated interest, I will wait > > until the digest goes out tomorrow to give those people a chance. > > Then I will put the names in a hat and have my wife draw one. > > > > I'm very happy that I won't have to toss this in the recycle bin! > > > > Hopefully the winner will be kind enough to help out others. > > I didn't even know there was a version 5 for DOS, although I knew there > was for Windows 3. Anyone happen to know what the very last version for > DOS/Windows 3.x was? > > Jim > I should have a copy of the program on diskette, I think its 4. I can't imagine this version of Reflection is that hard to find though. It was everywhere back during the days of use, like wordperfect 5. If there are requests I can image and post on my website for educational purposes only. ProCom was my go-to program then, but I also used Reflection. All these programs worked the same IMHO most all had DEC terminal emulation Bill > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 08:19:18 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:19:18 +0200 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 at 14:08, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > All these > programs worked the same IMHO most all had DEC terminal emulation DEC terminal emulation wasn't the problem for me and my employers, back at the end of the 1980s and beginning of the 1990s. It was Wyse terminal emulation. Wyse totally dominated the dumb serial terminal market in my part of the world by then, and OSes like SCO Xenix expected Wyse terminals and their quirks. An emulator for the DEC terminal the Wyse claimed to emulate would not work well. For us that was the appeal of stuff like JRiver ICE.TEN and WRQ Reflection -- perfect Wyse emulation. Oddly enough Reflection is still around. WRQ was bought by Attachmate, who bought Novell, and who were bought by Micro Focus -- so for whom I now work. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ajwills at scorchingbay.nz Tue Jun 5 04:14:50 2018 From: ajwills at scorchingbay.nz (Tony Wills) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 21:14:50 +1200 Subject: Mostek MK50312 Message-ID: Does anyone have any datasheet/hardware details of the early Mostek calculator chip MK50312N ? It may be listed in "Mostek, MOS Integrated Circuit Guide", 1975 - a magazine sized, 138 page, blue and silver book.? Which apparently covers the F8 and several early memory chips and some calculator chips. (Not listed in the Mostek 1974 "Integrated circuit guide") Any help would be appreciated, even just confirmation that it is listed in the '75 guide. --Tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 05:22:22 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 11:22:22 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 In-Reply-To: <12d6893a-b7c1-5573-2c63-633ca5a707db@charter.net> References: <000401d3ec16$1390d1d0$3ab27570$@gmail.com> <45F1707C-636E-49BD-B6C1-CAD116A88FB8@gmail.com> <014801d3ec8b$6c355480$449ffd80$@gmail.com> <004b01d3eee9$443a2bd0$ccae8370$@gmail.com> <006901d3eeef$73e1ab00$5ba50100$@gmail.com> <02c601d3f52e$5934ce50$0b9e6af0$@gmail.com> <12d6893a-b7c1-5573-2c63-633ca5a707db@charter.net> Message-ID: <00df01d3fcb7$181a0710$484e1530$@gmail.com> > > > > > > I used Clonezilla to make an image of my PCI machien with a P/390E card to a > USB drive - but in your case that would, of course, require it to recognize > your RAID array (which it just might, if the BIOS recognizes it). Whilst enough of the disk has to be visible to the BIOS to allow it to boot I don't think it can see all the drive. There is I think enough to allow the boot partition to be cloned but of course for CLONEZILLA to work I also need to get it to boot from CD.. .. I had high hopes for GHOST but the copy I have falls over when it reads the partition table. Dave From mtapley at swri.edu Tue Jun 5 09:47:55 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 14:47:55 +0000 Subject: Parts help - need flight SRAMs Message-ID: <8A9F13F5-2729-4349-842B-027C3FDACBF2@swri.edu> All, I have a need at work for an unusual SRAM chip (related to the New Horizons mission). if you have a source or supply of these parts: Part #=5962H9954103QXC Qty=2 (per board) Description: SRAM 256K x 8 Package=FPK40 Generic part#=LM2M8CRH-Q30X with which you?d be willing to part for a good cause, we would really like to know about it! Please contact me off-list, either by email or phone below, and I?ll happily put you in contact with the right folks. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 5 10:09:30 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 08:09:30 -0700 Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: References: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 06/05/2018 01:29 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Just a guess, but 556 kHz is 5 MHz divided by 9. Actually, it's a repeating decimal 555.5555.... And we're talking bits/chars per inch, so I don't see the connection, particularly on a 75 ips drive. More guesses welcome! This one's been dogging my mind for nearly 50 years, so I'm the patient sort... --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jun 5 11:38:58 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 18:38:58 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: References: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis wrote: > And we're talking bits/chars per inch, so I don't see the connection, > particularly on a 75 ips drive. Ehm, yes, I was thinking too fast and too simple... it's a hot day here. Christian From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:08:18 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:08:18 -0400 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) Message-ID: On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, which never worked even when they were new. I had an 11/725 in the 80s and 90s and never had a problem with the RC25 but they are legendarily terrible. > Hm. I remember some RC25s on RSTS, and they seemed to be ok. The fact that they had two drives on one motor made it strange, especially if the fixed platter was your system device. We had to teach the OS how to deal with SY: going away temporarily. Oof, yeah. When I used my 725, I didn't spin the RC25 up and down except when booting and shutting down. I also had devices like RL02s for removable storage. I often wonder how hard it would be to develop some other storage device for the KELSI but then other projects push to the top of the stack and I move on. Mostly, what I need is affordable ($250 or less) Unibus storage with modern media (Flash or IDE adapter or whatever). I don't really care what form it takes but Unibus SCSI cards are quite pricey and making a new controller is even less affordable (I used to make and support DMA-enabled Unibus communication controllers for a living so I have a pretty good idea of the amount of effort required). -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 5 12:19:02 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:19:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) Message-ID: <20180605171902.E622D18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > Mostly, what I need is affordable ($250 or less) Unibus storage with > modern media There's this: http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/unibone Not quite there yet, but getting there. Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:26:48 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:26:48 -0400 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: <20180605171902.E622D18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180605171902.E622D18C0A2@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > Mostly, what I need is affordable ($250 or less) Unibus storage with > > modern media > > There's this: > > http://www.retrocmp.com/projects/unibone I would totally buy this. I have some NOS DS8641s from my COMBOARD days as well as crates of old boards I could do pulls from. > Not quite there yet, but getting there. I am more than a little intrigued. I have a number of Unibus machines from an 11/20 up to 11/70 and VAXen from 11/725 to 11/750... I would likely buy more than one Unibone especially if available as a bare board. -ethan From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 12:34:09 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 17:34:09 +0000 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 06/05/2018 01:08 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 5:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk > wrote: >>> On Jun 4, 2018, at 1:17 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... FWIW, I have a 725 complete and working. Well, except for the RC25, which never worked even when they were new. > I had an 11/725 in the 80s and 90s and never had a problem with the > RC25 but they are legendarily terrible. > > I had one on a PDP-11 and never had a problem right up until I gave it away. bill From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jun 5 12:49:12 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 13:49:12 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163d1112128-c95-10ea@webjas-vab225.srv.aolmail.net> OK? we? ?can also use the? ?DEC? emulator? also? ?as? we? have a? H 11? we? need to terminalize? as? well as? ?an? 11/20? ?we? want to breahe? live into here? at the museum......? ? ?PLUS? if? anyone? has a? copy? for? the HP? we? can? use that? also.. ? WRQ was a? great? product We were a? dealer? for them back in the? 80's? And? Duh? I? forgot there was a? DEC? version? also.? ?( seldom sold? it as we mainly addressed the? HP? market. Always a? great? dales? day? when? one of? our? people that had a series 68? 3000? would? bump? terminals? ?for use of? PCs? and? ?need a bunch? of? copes of? Reflections for the PCs? to be terminals to the? 3000 also! ? Thanks? Liam for the? update? on ownership? glad? to hear? ?Reflection? still exists! ? thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC...? coury house/smecc attn Ed Sharpe archivist 5802 w palmaire ave Glendale, AZ 85301 ? ? In a message dated 6/5/2018 6:19:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Tue, 5 Jun 2018 at 14:08, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > All these > programs worked the same IMHO most all had DEC terminal emulation DEC terminal emulation wasn't the problem for me and my employers, back at the end of the 1980s and beginning of the 1990s. It was Wyse terminal emulation. Wyse totally dominated the dumb serial terminal market in my part of the world by then, and OSes like SCO Xenix expected Wyse terminals and their quirks. An emulator for the DEC terminal the Wyse claimed to emulate would not work well. For us that was the appeal of stuff like JRiver ICE.TEN and WRQ Reflection -- perfect Wyse emulation. Oddly enough Reflection is still around. WRQ was bought by Attachmate, who bought Novell, and who were bought by Micro Focus -- so for whom I now work. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 14:15:07 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:15:07 -0400 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> References: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 2:53 PM, Robert Armstrong wrote: > I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy ones. Hi, Bob, Perhaps. > They worked as long as you didn't spin them down or try to change the removable pack. Ah... that may be part of it. I never did. I loaded one removable pack and never swapped it out. > The removable part would crash at the drop of a hat :-( > and, of course given the clever shared spindle design, if the removable part wouldn't spin up then neither would the fixed part. Right. I have a different 11/725 now (long story but I screwed up and the old one went away at a friend's company when they were purchased and shut down)... I've had that replacement 11/725 for 10 years but it didn't come with a removable pack so I mothballed it out at my farm. I have only gotten a couple of removable packs in the past year and have not been able to spend time fiddling with it, but it's going to be a full cleaning and overhaul (dust, fans, PSU test, TU58 roller...) > I have (I think) three drives, or maybe just two. Two are internal drives for the 725 and one is in the table top enclosure. None work. No fun. > If anybody has any tips for fixing them, or even just a kludge to spin up the Winchester part without needing the removable part to work too, I'm all ears. I didn't want to bung up my only drive, but if I had 2, what about this? Put a foam or rubber wedge between the head arms of the removable pack (to keep them from thwacking together) and defeat any sort of interlock or removable cardridge sensor (I think there's a mag sensor at one corner?) The idea is to make the drive think there's a pack loaded. It might take doing something with a real pack housing and removing the platter in case the lower mass screws up the spin rate. Of course, if the internal drive electronics lose their mind because there's no signal coming from the removable pack heads, then it will likely go into Fault and not work. This is all just speculation on my part but I can envision ways that it doesn't keep the drive electronics happy. > AFAIK the LESI ("Low End Storage Interconnect") protocol is not documented anywhere, unlike SDI or MASSBUS which are. If it is, I've never found it. Nor have I. > I have several UNIBUS KLESI boards and I've often thought the same thing, but I'm not really interested in trying to reverse engineer the protocol w/o documentation. Same. That's what really slows me down - not wanting to start without a single idea of how it works. And then I think of how much work it would be to convert one of my COMBOARDs from a 3rd-party comms controller into a 3rd-party disk controller (I have full schematics and specifications and source for all the COMBOARDs so that's not starting from zero) but between designing and writing new firmware and writing drivers for every possible OS (RT-11 and VMS at the absolute front of the list), before I even get started, I just find something less insane to do. -ethan From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jun 5 14:25:26 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 12:25:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <163d1112128-c95-10ea@webjas-vab225.srv.aolmail.net> References: <163d1112128-c95-10ea@webjas-vab225.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Ed, PLEASE TURN OFF "justification" on your email, so that your email client stops inserting extraneous spaces to try to make the right edge of the lines line up with the font that you are using! There is no justification for doing that :-) Douglas Adams pointed out that there are many things that only a computer word processor would attempt to justify. (This is a correction. Previously, we had thought that your keyboard was broken, with keybounce on your spacebar. Although, you might want to fix your comma key, in order to be able to add punctuation.) On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > OK? we? ?can also use the? ?DEC? emulator? also? ?as? we? have a? H 11? we? need to terminalize? as? well as? ?an? 11/20? ?we? want to breahe? live into here? at the museum......? ? ?PLUS? if? anyone? has a? copy? for? the HP? we? can? use that? also.. > ? > WRQ was a? great? product We were a? dealer? for them back in the? 80's? And? Duh? I? forgot there was a? DEC? version? also.? ?( seldom sold? it as we mainly addressed the? HP? market. Always a? great? dales? day? when? one of? our? people that had a series 68? 3000? would? bump? terminals? ?for use of? PCs? and? ?need a bunch? of? copes of? Reflections for the PCs? to be terminals to the? 3000 also! > ? > Thanks? Liam for the? update? on ownership? glad? to hear? ?Reflection? still exists! > ? > thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC...? > > coury house/smecc > attn Ed Sharpe archivist > 5802 w palmaire ave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 5 14:30:49 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:30:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board Message-ID: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Jon Elson > How/where should I submit this? This is now available through here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Term-Mite_ST_Smart_Terminal I put in a little infrastructure around it (articles on the Term-Mite, NS405, etc), using info I dug up online. Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jun 5 14:41:36 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:41:36 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163d1780ea3-c8e-84da@webjas-vab199.srv.aolmail.net> Sorry -? I do not? see any? justification controls in the? email? feel free to? delete anything? from me it it bothers? you that much please. ? Ed# ? In a message dated 6/5/2018 12:25:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Ed, PLEASE TURN OFF "justification" on your email, so that your email client stops inserting extraneous spaces to try to make the right edge of the lines line up with the font that you are using! There is no justification for doing that :-) Douglas Adams pointed out that there are many things that only a computer word processor would attempt to justify. (This is a correction. Previously, we had thought that your keyboard was broken, with keybounce on your spacebar. Although, you might want to fix your comma key, in order to be able to add punctuation.) On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > OK? we? ?can also use the? ?DEC? emulator? also? ?as? we? have a? H 11? we? need to terminalize? as? well as? ?an? 11/20? ?we? want to breahe? live into here? at the museum......? ? ?PLUS? if? anyone? has a? copy? for? the HP? we? can? use that? also.. > ? > WRQ was a? great? product We were a? dealer? for them back in the? 80's? And? Duh? I? forgot there was a? DEC? version? also.? ?( seldom sold? it as we mainly addressed the? HP? market. Always a? great? dales? day? when? one of? our? people that had a series 68? 3000? would? bump? terminals? ?for use of? PCs? and? ?need a bunch? of? copes of? Reflections for the PCs? to be terminals to the? 3000 also! > ? > Thanks? Liam for the? update? on ownership? glad? to hear? ?Reflection? still exists! > ? > thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC...? > > coury house/smecc > attn Ed Sharpe archivist > 5802 w palmaire ave From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Jun 5 14:46:04 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 12:46:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: References: <163d1112128-c95-10ea@webjas-vab225.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Ed, > *throws rocks at Fred for top posting* :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From couryhouse at aol.com Tue Jun 5 14:49:54 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 15:49:54 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <163d17fa950-c92-9f07@webjas-vaa056.srv.aolmail.net> What??? ? ? In a message dated 6/5/2018 12:46:20 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Tue, 5 Jun 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Ed, > *throws rocks at Fred for top posting* :D g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jun 5 13:53:40 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 11:53:40 -0700 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy ones. They worked as long as you didn't spin them down or try to change the removable pack. The removable part would crash at the drop of a hat and, of course given the clever shared spindle design, if the removable part wouldn't spin up then neither would the fixed part. I have (I think) three drives, or maybe just two. Two are internal drives for the 725 and one is in the table top enclosure. None work. If anybody has any tips for fixing them, or even just a kludge to spin up the Winchester part without needing the removable part to work too, I'm all ears. > Ethan Dicks wrote: >I often wonder how hard it would be to develop some other storage >device for the KELSI AFAIK the LESI ("Low End Storage Interconnect") protocol is not documented anywhere, unlike SDI or MASSBUS which are. If it is, I've never found it. I have several UNIBUS KLESI boards and I've often thought the same thing, but I'm not really interested in trying to reverse engineer the protocol w/o documentation. Bob From osi.superboard at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 16:10:24 2018 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:10:24 +0100 Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System Message-ID: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> Since a few days, my EXORciser Development System is finally able to boot from floppy diskettes. Previous attempts have shown that the Motorola EXORciser M68SFDC1 floppy disk board used has a special modified ROM version. This was probably written for an 8-inch drive, in which the Write protect and Direction signal were inverted. For the sake of simplicity, I have used free inverter on the board to invert the signals accordingly. After adjusting the PLL frequency, reads and writes from the card are now error-free. And all without FDC, only clever programming by Motorola software engineers in the early 76? Originally, the EXORdisk system was a dual drive with two 8 "units. This I have replaced with a double drive of two 5.25 inch units. An Epson and a TEAC, which can be jumpered to 360 rpm. Luckily, 2HD floppy disks are easy to R&W. I also got a GOTEK floppy emulator running, which I can boot from. Thanks to Roland Huisman, Bitsaver has some interesting floppy disks that convert to HFE format work perfectly. This format makes the Gotek drive most reliable. Now to my question. The vintage computer forum at http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-44638.html mentioned some interesting manuals. Archive.org has some manuals, Bitsaver does not have manuals about the M6800 development system. If someone already owns scanned manuals to the following list M6800 Basic Interpreter Reference Manual M6800 Macro Assembler reference Manual M68SFDU Exordisk 11/111 Disk `Drive Unit Maintenance Manual M6800 Exorciser 11 User's Guide M6800 Exorciser User's Guide MEX68PP1 PROM Programmer Module Supplement M6800 Exorciser User's Guide I would welcome any feedback or questions --THOMAS From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 16:20:28 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 16:20:28 -0500 Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System In-Reply-To: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Thomas B via cctech wrote: > > Now to my question. The vintage computer forum at > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-44638.html mentioned some > interesting manuals. Archive.org has some manuals, Bitsaver does not have > manuals about the M6800 development system. > If someone already owns scanned manuals to the following list > > M6800 Basic Interpreter Reference Manual > M6800 Macro Assembler reference Manual > M68SFDU Exordisk 11/111 Disk `Drive Unit Maintenance Manual > M6800 Exorciser 11 User's Guide > M6800 Exorciser User's Guide > MEX68PP1 PROM Programmer Module Supplement M6800 Exorciser User's Guide Apologies if you already know about these, but Bitsavers did fairly recently split some of the stuff from /pdf to /components. http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser/ Thanks, Kyle From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:19:46 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:19:46 +0000 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> References: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> Message-ID: On 06/05/2018 02:53 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > I too have heard that RC25s and PDP-11s were used in nuclear subs for some kind of sonar thingie. I've no idea how that worked, except that maybe DEC gave all the good drives to the Navy and the rest of us got the crappy ones. I used mine for more than 10 years and have no idea how long or much the previous owners used it.? Never a problem.? I kept the KLESI module to use with tape drives after I gave the disk away.? Now that was a truly weird system. same controller but the cable went one way for a disk and the other way for a tape. > > They worked as long as you didn't spin them down or try to change the removable pack. The removable part would crash at the drop of a hat and, of course given the clever shared spindle design, if the removable part wouldn't spin up then neither would the fixed part. > > I have (I think) three drives, or maybe just two. Two are internal drives for the 725 and one is in the table top enclosure. None work. If anybody has any tips for fixing them, or even just a kludge to spin up the Winchester part without needing the removable part to work too, I'm all ears. Mine was the tabletop model. > >> Ethan Dicks wrote: >> I often wonder how hard it would be to develop some other storage >> device for the KELSI > AFAIK the LESI ("Low End Storage Interconnect") protocol is not documented anywhere, unlike SDI or MASSBUS which are. If it is, I've never found it. I have several UNIBUS KLESI boards and I've often thought the same thing, but I'm not really interested in trying to reverse engineer the protocol w/o documentation. > bill From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Jun 5 18:29:37 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 16:29:37 -0700 Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> References: <61df15d8-d7fa-a743-c592-d944a4ae85a4@sydex.com> Message-ID: <014a01d3fd25$12728a30$37579e90$@computer.org> Bache says it was introduced with the 729 II and that the density was determined by keeping the tape speed ips the same and upping the data rate to 62,500 Hz. The latter was controversial Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Saturday, June 02, 2018 11:27 AM To: CCtalk Subject: Whence 556? List: This is one that's bothered me for most of my adult life. As you may or may not know, there were three industry standard densities for 7 track 1/2" tape: 200, 556 and finally 800 cpi/bpi. So 200 and 800 are nice decimal multiples of 10. But 556 doesn't fit that pattern--it's not a "nice' number, being the product of 4 and 139 and doesn't correspond to any computer-related characteristics that I know of. It's not metric. So why 556 and not 400, 512 or 600? There's got to be a story there, somewhere. I think the 556 density came in around the 1401/7090 time with the 729 II. Anyone know the story? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 19:15:35 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 18:15:35 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This is now available through here: > http://gunkies.org/wiki/Term-Mite_ST_Smart_Terminal > Thanks! If someone dumps the ROM of the Zentec ADM3 Retrofit, I'll try my hand at reverse-engineering the code. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 19:59:28 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 18:59:28 -0600 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> References: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Robert Armstrong via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > AFAIK the LESI ("Low End Storage Interconnect") protocol is not > documented anywhere, unlike SDI or MASSBUS which are. If it is, I've never > found it. I have several UNIBUS KLESI boards and I've often thought the > same thing, but I'm not really interested in trying to reverse engineer the > protocol w/o documentation. > There's SDI protocol documentation? From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 20:06:07 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 19:06:07 -0600 Subject: Parts help - need flight SRAMs In-Reply-To: <8A9F13F5-2729-4349-842B-027C3FDACBF2@swri.edu> References: <8A9F13F5-2729-4349-842B-027C3FDACBF2@swri.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a need at work for an unusual SRAM chip (related to the New > Horizons mission). > if you have a source or supply of these parts: > Part #=5962H9954103QXC > That's not a chip, it's a hybrid multi-chip module. Probably just about unobtanium now. If a datasheet is available, it wouldn't be hard to engineer a form/fit/function replacement, if it's for ground support and you don't need radiation-hardened or mil-spec. If no datasheet, could design from schematics of board it is used on. If no datasheet and no schematics... From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Jun 5 20:13:36 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 21:13:36 -0400 Subject: R: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> Message-ID: On 06/05/2018 07:23 AM, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > So, more recent versions lost the ability to interact with older (niche now) hardware ? > Interesting... I'm assuming you were replying to me... No. "Reflection 1", "Reflection 4", etc. are just product names, not version numbers. At one point there were selling Reflection 1, 2, 4, 7, and I believe 8 at the same time. This apparently caused a bit of confusion so later on they came up with a better naming scheme. Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 5 20:38:21 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 05 Jun 2018 20:38:21 -0500 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5B173B0D.4020800@pico-systems.com> On 06/05/2018 07:15 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 1:30 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> This is now available through here: >> http://gunkies.org/wiki/Term-Mite_ST_Smart_Terminal >> > Thanks! > > If someone dumps the ROM of the Zentec ADM3 Retrofit, I'll try my hand at > reverse-engineering the code. > I wrote a disassembler for the NS405/NS455 in Pascal on my CP/M system, in 1985. If this code would be of any use, I can let you have it. I'm guessing this was written for the UCSD Pascal system as run under CP/M. I have no idea how easy it would be to get it running on a modern Pascal compiler. I have had really good luck bringing up some old Pascal programs from Borland Turbo pascal and VAX Pascal with the Linux FPC (Free Pascal Compiler). I also have a cross-assembler for the NS405/455 written in Pascal. Jon From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 21:00:20 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:00:20 -0400 Subject: For the price of shipping. Oddball telephones Message-ID: I have two rare desktop telephones taking up space in my basement. I know I never will play with or display them. - Pingtel Xpressa PX-1. An early IP telephone - ATT 8130 "Computer Phone". It has an RS-232 port in the back for bi-directional comms. I reverse engineered the protocol when I used this in 1996. Crappy software available on request. I may even be able to dig up the code Larry Wall sent me (Perl, of course) from the same era. Photos here: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMJ-iCRhnHmiL9PoswsyJ2fiNTMK5Lw1xf 5TgpYr6UAo6ktLFAe6yEds5XvCIDoCg?key=WldvcDZnNEFlMmNza25ZLUdsN205R24zcFV2MHNR Local pickup on Long Island or Manhattan, NY. I will mail it to you if you pay the shipping via paypal or google pay. I will weigh it and calculate the shipping if there is interest, but I am not going to bother unless someone is interested. From jim at deitygraveyard.com Tue Jun 5 21:16:54 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:16:54 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> Message-ID: <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> On 06/05/2018 08:07 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I should have a copy of the program on diskette, I think its 4. I can't > imagine this version of Reflection is that hard to find though. It was > everywhere back during the days of use, like wordperfect 5. If there are > requests I can image and post on my website for educational purposes only. > ProCom was my go-to program then, but I also used Reflection. All these > programs worked the same IMHO most all had DEC terminal emulation It is impossible to find! Just recently I finally saw on eBay Reflection 4 version 4.3 for DOS. I spent way too much for it. :/ Now Reflection 2 I see a bit of. It is the same as Reflection 4, just without the ReGIS and Tektronix (4010 or 4014) emulation. ProComm is what I mostly used back in the day too. On occasion I still use ProComm Plus 4.8 (the last version) under Wine under Linux for some things. It's great but I don't believe it's VT emulation is as good as Reflection 2/4. If you should come across it, let me know what version of Reflection 4 you have. Jim From teoz at neo.rr.com Tue Jun 5 21:41:54 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:41:54 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> Message-ID: <3E1154DC30C042D7BBDDFC02A99FFA25@teoPC> I have 9 floppy disks for WRQ ReflectionX Windows V4.00 if anybody needs images. -----Original Message----- From: Jim Carpenter via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2018 10:16 PM To: Bill Degnan ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS On 06/05/2018 08:07 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I should have a copy of the program on diskette, I think its 4. I can't > imagine this version of Reflection is that hard to find though. It was > everywhere back during the days of use, like wordperfect 5. If there are > requests I can image and post on my website for educational purposes only. > ProCom was my go-to program then, but I also used Reflection. All these > programs worked the same IMHO most all had DEC terminal emulation It is impossible to find! Just recently I finally saw on eBay Reflection 4 version 4.3 for DOS. I spent way too much for it. :/ Now Reflection 2 I see a bit of. It is the same as Reflection 4, just without the ReGIS and Tektronix (4010 or 4014) emulation. ProComm is what I mostly used back in the day too. On occasion I still use ProComm Plus 4.8 (the last version) under Wine under Linux for some things. It's great but I don't believe it's VT emulation is as good as Reflection 2/4. If you should come across it, let me know what version of Reflection 4 you have. Jim --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 5 23:19:33 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 22:19:33 -0600 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <3E1154DC30C042D7BBDDFC02A99FFA25@teoPC> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> <3E1154DC30C042D7BBDDFC02A99FFA25@teoPC> Message-ID: On 06/05/2018 08:41 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > I have 9 floppy disks for WRQ ReflectionX Windows V4.00 if anybody needs > images. I would love images to mess with. I've played with some Sixel and ReGIS graphics and I'd like to see how other emulators stack up. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From osi.superboard at gmail.com Tue Jun 5 17:12:08 2018 From: osi.superboard at gmail.com (osi.superboard at gmail.com) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 23:12:08 +0100 Subject: AW: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System In-Reply-To: References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <5b170ab8.1c69fb81.f453d.896a@mx.google.com> Hi Kyle, thanks and good to know. I will include the Components folder in future searches. The M6800 Exorciser User's Guide is included, so there are five documents left. --THOMAS Von: Kyle Owen via cctech Gesendet: Dienstag, 5. Juni 2018 22:38 An: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Betreff: Re: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Thomas B via cctech wrote: > > Now to my question. The vintage computer forum at > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-44638.html mentioned some > interesting manuals. Archive.org has some manuals, Bitsaver does not have > manuals about the M6800 development system. > If someone already owns scanned manuals to the following list > > M6800 Basic Interpreter Reference Manual > M6800 Macro Assembler reference Manual > M68SFDU Exordisk 11/111 Disk `Drive Unit Maintenance Manual > M6800 Exorciser 11 User's Guide > M6800 Exorciser User's Guide > MEX68PP1 PROM Programmer Module Supplement M6800 Exorciser User's Guide Apologies if you already know about these, but Bitsavers did fairly recently split some of the stuff from /pdf to /components. http://bitsavers.org/components/motorola/6800/exorciser/ Thanks, Kyle From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jun 5 18:51:42 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 16:51:42 -0700 Subject: Motorola EXORciser M6800 System In-Reply-To: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> References: <5b16fc40.1c69fb81.91e8d.b29d@mx.google.com> Message-ID: Total congratulations On Tue, Jun 5, 2018, 2:10 PM Thomas B via cctech wrote: > Since a few days, my EXORciser Development System is finally able to boot > from floppy diskettes. > > Previous attempts have shown that the Motorola EXORciser M68SFDC1 floppy > disk board used has a special modified ROM version. This was probably > written for an 8-inch drive, in which the Write protect and Direction > signal were inverted. > For the sake of simplicity, I have used free inverter on the board to > invert the signals accordingly. > After adjusting the PLL frequency, reads and writes from the card are now > error-free. And all without FDC, only clever programming by Motorola > software engineers in the early 76? > > Originally, the EXORdisk system was a dual drive with two 8 "units. This I > have replaced with a double drive of two 5.25 inch units. An Epson and a > TEAC, which can be jumpered to 360 rpm. Luckily, 2HD floppy disks are easy > to R&W. > I also got a GOTEK floppy emulator running, which I can boot from. Thanks > to Roland Huisman, Bitsaver has some interesting floppy disks that convert > to HFE format work perfectly. This format makes the Gotek drive most > reliable. > > Now to my question. The vintage computer forum at > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-44638.html mentioned some > interesting manuals. Archive.org has some manuals, Bitsaver does not have > manuals about the M6800 development system. > If someone already owns scanned manuals to the following list > > M6800 Basic Interpreter Reference Manual > M6800 Macro Assembler reference Manual > M68SFDU Exordisk 11/111 Disk `Drive Unit Maintenance Manual > M6800 Exorciser 11 User's Guide > M6800 Exorciser User's Guide > MEX68PP1 PROM Programmer Module Supplement M6800 Exorciser User's Guide > > I would welcome any feedback or questions > > --THOMAS > > From bob at jfcl.com Tue Jun 5 20:03:56 2018 From: bob at jfcl.com (Robert Armstrong) Date: Tue, 5 Jun 2018 18:03:56 -0700 Subject: RC25 (was Re: Modifying microcode) In-Reply-To: References: <002d01d3fcfe$85066d40$8f1347c0$@com> Message-ID: <008301d3fd32$3eb2be50$bc183af0$@com> >Eric Smith wrote: >There's SDI protocol documentation? You know, after I wrote that I realized that I was wrong about SDI. I've seen some electrical specs, but not the protocol. Bob From jim at deitygraveyard.com Wed Jun 6 04:40:12 2018 From: jim at deitygraveyard.com (Jim Carpenter) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 05:40:12 -0400 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> <3E1154DC30C042D7BBDDFC02A99FFA25@teoPC> Message-ID: <8ec49b0d-e781-a66c-cc46-bb64723c5846@deitygraveyard.com> On 06/06/2018 12:19 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 06/05/2018 08:41 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: >> I have 9 floppy disks for WRQ ReflectionX Windows V4.00 if anybody >> needs images. > > I would love images to mess with. > > I've played with some Sixel and ReGIS graphics and I'd like to see how > other emulators stack up. > > > Reflection X is a X11 server for Windows. I believe it comes with Reflection 2, which means no ReGIS or Tektronix graphics. I don't know how good the X server is. It's on my list of things to play with. Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 6 08:48:43 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 09:48:43 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation Message-ID: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I'm hoping someone here knows the low-level nitty-gritty on how the characters on the CDC 6600 console CRTs were generated. Thornton, "Design of a Computer", says "Control of the beam .. is provided by electrostatic deflection ... electronically converting from the symbol .. to deflection voltages", but alas, doesn't say how that conversion is done. And I looked in some CDC 6600 documentation online, alas, even less detail. But looking at the characters (reproduced on the dust jacket), the curves sure make it look like it wasn't anything simple (e.g. using display vectors, as one source indicated). Does anyone know? (BTW, the VT11 in DEC's GT40 used bit maps for its built-in character geneator, and the hardware did tiny raster zones to display them!) Noel From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jun 6 09:57:27 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:57:27 +0000 Subject: Parts help - need flight SRAMs In-Reply-To: References: <8A9F13F5-2729-4349-842B-027C3FDACBF2@swri.edu> Message-ID: <23C48D0E-EF25-4A4A-92AF-999E0E506694@swri.edu> Eric, forwarded to the folks at Johns Hopkins with the need, thank you very much! They designed the board so they are likely to know what the part needs to do, and you are correct it?s for ground support, so presumably they will be able to design a replacement if necessary. They may also have the datasheet. I Got two other responses as well, one with a part number listing (with 52,000 parts available, which is pretty suspicious) and one offering to design a module as you suggest, and forwarded those as well. Very much obliged! - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > On Jun 5, 2018, at 8:06 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I have a need at work for an unusual SRAM chip (related to the New >> Horizons mission). >> if you have a source or supply of these parts: >> Part #=5962H9954103QXC >> > > That's not a chip, it's a hybrid multi-chip module. Probably just about > unobtanium now. If a datasheet is available, it wouldn't be hard to > engineer a form/fit/function replacement, if it's for ground support and > you don't need radiation-hardened or mil-spec. If no datasheet, could > design from schematics of board it is used on. If no datasheet and no > schematics... From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 6 10:20:30 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 11:20:30 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6d75978c-462d-5afc-e2d1-3cb1c34878c3@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-06-06 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, I'm hoping someone here knows the low-level nitty-gritty on how the > characters on the CDC 6600 console CRTs were generated. > > Thornton, "Design of a Computer", says "Control of the beam .. is provided by > electrostatic deflection ... electronically converting from the symbol .. to > deflection voltages", but alas, doesn't say how that conversion is done. And I > looked in some CDC 6600 documentation online, alas, even less detail. > > But looking at the characters (reproduced on the dust jacket), the curves sure > make it look like it wasn't anything simple (e.g. using display vectors, as > one source indicated). Does anyone know? Ah, this is a topic of great interest to me, and coincidentally it came up recently on Twitter. https://twitter.com/TubeTimeUS/status/1003752120867123200 It's suggested there (without any proof though) that the CDC used a Fourier process similar to the 1958 article by Kenneth E. Perry and Everett J. Aho (MIT Lincoln Labs). http://www.thecorememory.com/GenCharforCRR.pdf A more modern implementation is here: http://www.glensstuff.com/fouriersynthchargen/fouriersynthchargen.htm This is actually something I intend to build myself with a larger character set, and I've been specifically considering emulating the character set of the CDC console. I'd be very interested to know what you find out about the circuitry. Anyway the LCM seems to be the bunch who knows most about it, and they've seen this thread. I hope the discussion will continue in public. Related: I'd very much like to get good macrophotography of the console character set. > > (BTW, the VT11 in DEC's GT40 used bit maps for its built-in character geneator, > and the hardware did tiny raster zones to display them!) As does the PDP-1 (point plotting, 5x7 I think). --Toby > > Noel > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Wed Jun 6 10:31:59 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 09:31:59 -0600 Subject: WRQ Reflection 4+ DOS In-Reply-To: <8ec49b0d-e781-a66c-cc46-bb64723c5846@deitygraveyard.com> References: <3ba4a00e-30e6-f8d2-c35d-56b083275c1e@deitygraveyard.com> <163cf4d2eec-c92-654c@webjas-vad110.srv.aolmail.net> <009e01d3fcbf$b0cb4160$1261c420$@tin.it> <6dd0674a-65c2-f523-8196-f33bd0335c8c@deitygraveyard.com> <3E1154DC30C042D7BBDDFC02A99FFA25@teoPC> <8ec49b0d-e781-a66c-cc46-bb64723c5846@deitygraveyard.com> Message-ID: On 06/06/2018 03:40 AM, Jim Carpenter wrote: > Reflection X is a X11 server for Windows. I believe it comes with > Reflection 2, which means no ReGIS or Tektronix graphics. ACK > I don't know how good the X server is. It's on my list of things to play > with. It's been a long time since I've needed an X server for Windows. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 6 11:31:11 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 12:31:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation Message-ID: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Toby Thain > It's suggested there (without any proof though) that the CDC used a > Fourier process > ... > I'd be very interested to know what you find out about the circuitry. Someone very kindly pointed me at: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60125000C_6602_6603_6622_6681_6682_Data_Channel_Diagrams_Dec65.pdf (although why it's in the Cyber70 folder, I'm not quite sure :-). I don't completely understand it (it's only drawings, no text, and the notation is unfamiliar), but I think I get the general drift - and it's pretty baroque! Very briefly, it appears to me that characters are generated from short vector-type strokes placed in a 7x7 matrix, with each stroke being encoded as motion of 0, 1 or 2 'boxes', both horizontally and vertically, from the 'box' of the end of the previous stroke. A character can contain up to 22 strokes, but most seem to average about dozen or so. The pronounced rounding which I noticed in the characters must be caused by the limited bandpass of the A-D system, amplifiers, etc - it can't actually do a sharp corner when going from e.g. a vertical stroke to a diagonal one. Or something like that.. :-) Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 6 12:03:28 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 13:03:28 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2c346d98-7bdb-6444-96b5-4031a5fa794c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-06-06 12:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Toby Thain > > > It's suggested there (without any proof though) that the CDC used a > > Fourier process > > ... > > I'd be very interested to know what you find out about the circuitry. > > Someone very kindly pointed me at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60125000C_6602_6603_6622_6681_6682_Data_Channel_Diagrams_Dec65.pdf > > (although why it's in the Cyber70 folder, I'm not quite sure :-). I don't > completely understand it (it's only drawings, no text, and the notation is > unfamiliar), but I think I get the general drift - and it's pretty baroque! > > Very briefly, it appears to me that characters are generated from short > vector-type strokes placed in a 7x7 matrix, with each stroke being encoded as > motion of 0, 1 or 2 'boxes', both horizontally and vertically, from the 'box' > of the end of the previous stroke. A character can contain up to 22 strokes, > but most seem to average about dozen or so. OK, so that's definitely not a Fourier technique. I admit I was sceptical of the tweet. :) Thanks for the link. > > The pronounced rounding which I noticed in the characters must be caused by > the limited bandpass of the A-D system, amplifiers, etc - it can't actually do > a sharp corner when going from e.g. a vertical stroke to a diagonal one. Or > something like that.. :-) Makes sense. --Toby > > Noel > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 12:20:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 10:20:39 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 06/06/2018 09:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > The pronounced rounding which I noticed in the characters must be caused by > the limited bandpass of the A-D system, amplifiers, etc - it can't actually do > a sharp corner when going from e.g. a vertical stroke to a diagonal one. Or > something like that.. :-) Ah, Noel, you beat me to it--I wasn't even through my morning coffee before I read the query. Yes, a simple 5x7 scheme in an 8x8 "grid", which produced very readable output in small characters, but as you went to medium or large characters, the coarseness was immediately obvious. Still, pretty remarkable for 1964, a 64-character line with 64 lines of small characters possible. The 6602 programming reference is here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/cdc/cyber/peripheralCtlr/60333900B_6602_6612_Console_Display_Sep74.pdf The gotcha, of course, is that you were driving the display with a 12 bit PPU with 4K words and a 1 microsecond cycle time. No buffering--you looped in your display code to refresh the display. This was no storage device--if you didn't make the loop or your code hung, the display blanked completely at worst, or flickered severely at best. Although the "dot" resolution for graphics was 512x512, drawing of involved graphics took a long time, so, even on simple games, such as BAT (baseball), was a mixture of characters and pixel graphics. The display for CHESS 3.0 was mostly made up of characters-as-graphics. For example, to shade a square on the chessboard, the "/' character was used. This need for continual refresh made for complex displays having some degree of flicker. The same PPU that generated both screen displays (and there were quite a number of them for the operator--the default was the AB display setup, scrolling master dayfile on one side and control point status on the other) also had to handle operator commands entered from the keyboard--and there were no interrupts, so DSD (the usual name of the PPU program) had to poll the keyboard as well. As if that weren't enough, DSD also performed auto-completion of operator commands. Overlays were either loaded from disk (by calling another PPU to do the I/O) or directly from central memory. Space in the DSD driver was very tight, to the extent, I believe, that much of the memory taken by the PP resident was reclaimed by DSD. After all, DSD was loaded at deadstart and never unloaded. Like PP0, the system monitor MTR, it was there for the duration. There was also a user-callable PP program, called "DIS" that interpreted data from a user's CM area. DIS was granted access to the 6602 only with DSD temporarily giving it up. DIS was loaded only as needed. --Chuck P.S. Somewhere, I ran across a 1967 (granted) patent that describes the character generator scheme. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:52:13 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 11:52:13 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: <5B173B0D.4020800@pico-systems.com> References: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5B173B0D.4020800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 7:38 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I wrote a disassembler for the NS405/NS455 in Pascal on my CP/M system, in > 1985. > If this code would be of any use, I can let you have it. I'm guessing > this was written for the UCSD Pascal system as run under CP/M. I have no > idea how easy it would be to get it running on a modern Pascal compiler. I > have had really good luck bringing up some old Pascal programs from Borland > Turbo pascal and VAX Pascal with the Linux FPC (Free Pascal Compiler). > > I also have a cross-assembler for the NS405/455 written in Pascal. Sure, if you've got them handy, I'll try compiling them with FPC. Are you willing to release them as open source? Do you have any actual NS405/NS455 code that would be of interest? From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 12:58:05 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 11:58:05 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <6d75978c-462d-5afc-e2d1-3cb1c34878c3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <6d75978c-462d-5afc-e2d1-3cb1c34878c3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:20 AM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-06-06 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > (BTW, the VT11 in DEC's GT40 used bit maps for its built-in character > geneator, > > and the hardware did tiny raster zones to display them!) > > As does the PDP-1 (point plotting, 5x7 I think). > Some variants of the Type 30 display, used on the PDP-1 and other early DEC computers, included a Type 33 character generator option, which works as you describe. The computer sends two 18-bit words, which are interpreted as a 5x7 bitmap, with the leftover bit used to shift the character slightly for a subscript. The Type 30G display has the Type 33 character generator as a standard feature. The PDP-1 at the Computer History Museum has a 30G, but the character generator is not completely working. I suspect that most PDP-1 installations did not have the character generator. There is not known to be any surviving PDP-1 software that used the character generator; I wrote simple test programs we used to attempt to debug the hardware. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 13:08:44 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:08:44 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 6, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Hi, I'm hoping someone here knows the low-level nitty-gritty on how the > characters on the CDC 6600 console CRTs were generated. > > Thornton, "Design of a Computer", says "Control of the beam .. is provided by > electrostatic deflection ... electronically converting from the symbol .. to > deflection voltages", but alas, doesn't say how that conversion is done. And I > looked in some CDC 6600 documentation online, alas, even less detail. > > But looking at the characters (reproduced on the dust jacket), the curves sure > make it look like it wasn't anything simple (e.g. using display vectors, as > one source indicated). Does anyone know? Yes. It is indeed a digital stroke generator, not a Fourier generator as someone suggested. The reason for the odd shapes on the Thornton book cover is the AC characteristics of the display electronics. There are a couple of parts to the puzzle. One is the display controller ("synchronizer" in CDC terminology, the module that connects to the 6000 I/O channel). The 60125000 manual that was mentioned is the "block diagrams" manual for that (and several other) controllers. The block diagrams show the overall data flow and the general structure of the circuits, but they are not complete schematics. However, the full schematics also exist: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/63016700A_6600_Chassis_Tabs_12_Apr65.pdf The block diagram manual shows the waveforms generated by the controller. As you can see, they are pretty angular and straight lined. Each segment (between the small marks on the stroke) corresponds to a 100 ms clock cycle, with a one or two element step in X and/or Y. Incidentally, the 170 series display controller produces the same waveforms, though using a completely different (ROM based) design. The other part of the puzzle is the DD60 console display. That is fed from the 6602/6612 display controller by a bundle of coax cables. The waveforms are generated by A/D circuits (quite primitive ones) in the 6602, and travel in analog differential form to the DD60. There they go through a string of amplifiers and a scaling circuit, for the small/medium/large character size selection. Eventually they end up on the deflection plates of large electrostatic deflection CRTs. Much of the signal chain is early 1960s transistors; the final couple of stages are tubes. You can find the schematics at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/82100010_dd60a_Mar65.pdf What appears to be going on is that the signal chain in the DD60 has enough bandwidth to draw the characters, but only barely. So there is distortion in the path, resulting in character shapes on the screen that are not the same as the nominal stroke patterns generated by the controller. I have converted the "chassis tabs 12" wire lists to a VHDL model, which you can find on my Subversion server. Run on GHDL, it demonstrates the behavior of the circuit and reproduces the documented waveforms. I have also attempted to create a SPICE model of the DD60 deflection signal path. So far that hasn't been all that successful. I probably have bad assumptions for the transistor models, and the CRT deflection plate capacitance figures are also a complete guess. My hope was to reproduce the actual screen patterns, but that hasn't worked yet. Finally, I did a much more primitive approximation of the DD60 signal path, with a couple of IIR filters that very roughly imitate the RC elements in that path. That was done as part of my console display emulator program for Tom Hunter's DtCyber program. It was somewhat successful in that the characters show some of the rounding and distortion that the real display has, but unfortunately I can't claim that this is because it's an accurate model. By the way, the displays shown on the 170 series console (CDC 565) look somewhat different. That's because the display electronics are different, even though the input waveforms are the same. The 170 display is a single large tube, with electromagnetic deflection. That's a pretty amazing thing to do for a random access stroke drawing display, but I guess the required bandwidth is low enough that they pulled it off. The two key parameters are max character stroke speed (8 display units per 100 ns, given the 2 unit max step and 4x scaling for "large" characters) and full screen (512 units) max character base position step in about 3 microseconds. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 13:16:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:16:43 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180606163111.8B8E618C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Jun 6, 2018, at 12:31 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Toby Thain > >> It's suggested there (without any proof though) that the CDC used a >> Fourier process >> ... >> I'd be very interested to know what you find out about the circuitry. > > Someone very kindly pointed me at: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60125000C_6602_6603_6622_6681_6682_Data_Channel_Diagrams_Dec65.pdf > > (although why it's in the Cyber70 folder, I'm not quite sure :-). I don't > completely understand it (it's only drawings, no text, and the notation is > unfamiliar), but I think I get the general drift - and it's pretty baroque! The notation is explained at the start of http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60119300BT_6600_Diagrams_and_Circuit_Description_Vol1_Jan68.pdf It's pretty straightforward: circles for AND, squares for OR. Arrowhead means inversion. They call the basic logic element "NAND" but it is NOR in the usual terminology (it's "invert then AND" while "NAND" as normally used means "AND then invert"). The logic diagrams show both AND and OR boxes because they are drawn to show the logic operations via De Morgan's law, not the actual circuits. The logic modules are drawn as larger rectangles with the circuit elements in them. A circle at the module outline is a twisted pair input or output (connection within the chassis). A double circle (figure 8 lying on its side) is a coax input or output, for between-chassis or external connections. Finally, circuit boxes with an X or dot in them are "special circuits", i.e., not plain logic. The AF module, which is the D/A converter for the display controller, has these, as do the core memory sense amplifier modules. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:42:18 2018 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 13:42:18 -0500 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5B173B0D.4020800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2018, 12:52 Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Sure, if you've got them handy, I'll try compiling them with FPC. Are you > willing to release them as open source? > > Do you have any actual NS405/NS455 code that would be of interest? > I have this development board with an NS405 on it. Checked through my docs and don't seem to have anything for it. Would dumping the EPROM be of interest? http://imgur.com/a/zYJvN5B Thanks, Kyle > From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 13:50:21 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 12:50:21 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <20180605193049.76F0518C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5B173B0D.4020800@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 12:42 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote: > I have this development board with an NS405 on it. Checked through my docs > and don't seem to have anything for it. Would dumping the EPROM be of > interest? > >From the hand-written label on the EPROM, I suspect that it's not the original code the development board shipped with, but sure, it would still be interesting to look at the code. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jun 6 14:18:56 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 19:18:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: References: <7051f84f71cb4a8f8d55bd677f8c652b@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <1045128633.1993598.1528312736541@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, thanks, Chuck, for pointing to my website with the 604 drive, but it's currently offline as I am required to update the disclaimer part. This is required, since in Europe,a new law for data protection was introduced on Friday, 25th of May. I plan to put the website back online this weekend. All the best, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 4. Juni 2018, 23:15:10 MESZ hat Chuck Guzis via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: On 06/04/2018 11:20 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > For decades, I remembered the lowest density for magnetic tapes as 225 bits/in, > not 200.? I have never been able to find the number "225" in any manual since > starting the project which became the museum 15 years ago (sob!), but it still > hangs around in my mind and pings whenever I see "200BPI" mentioned. Nope.? I've seen 248 mentioned and I have period-specific tapes that are declared to be 200 bpi on the label and then there's this: http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/604/604.htm Note the density indicators on this panel from a CDC 604. --Chuck From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Wed Jun 6 14:18:56 2018 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 19:18:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Whence 556? In-Reply-To: References: <7051f84f71cb4a8f8d55bd677f8c652b@livingcomputers.org> Message-ID: <1045128633.1993598.1528312736541@mail.yahoo.com> Hi all, thanks, Chuck, for pointing to my website with the 604 drive, but it's currently offline as I am required to update the disclaimer part. This is required, since in Europe,a new law for data protection was introduced on Friday, 25th of May. I plan to put the website back online this weekend. All the best, Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de Am Montag, 4. Juni 2018, 23:15:10 MESZ hat Chuck Guzis via cctalk Folgendes geschrieben: On 06/04/2018 11:20 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > For decades, I remembered the lowest density for magnetic tapes as 225 bits/in, > not 200.? I have never been able to find the number "225" in any manual since > starting the project which became the museum 15 years ago (sob!), but it still > hangs around in my mind and pings whenever I see "200BPI" mentioned. Nope.? I've seen 248 mentioned and I have period-specific tapes that are declared to be 200 bpi on the label and then there's this: http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/604/604.htm Note the density indicators on this panel from a CDC 604. --Chuck From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Jun 6 14:19:50 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 15:19:50 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-06-06 2:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jun 6, 2018, at 9:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi, I'm hoping someone here knows the low-level nitty-gritty on how the >> characters on the CDC 6600 console CRTs were generated. >> >> Thornton, "Design of a Computer", says "Control of the beam .. is provided by >> electrostatic deflection ... electronically converting from the symbol .. to >> deflection voltages", but alas, doesn't say how that conversion is done. And I >> looked in some CDC 6600 documentation online, alas, even less detail. >> >> But looking at the characters (reproduced on the dust jacket), the curves sure >> make it look like it wasn't anything simple (e.g. using display vectors, as >> one source indicated). Does anyone know? > > Yes. > > It is indeed a digital stroke generator, not a Fourier generator as someone suggested. The reason for the odd shapes on the Thornton book cover is the AC characteristics of the display electronics. > The tweet did, but I found the suggestion surprising. > There are a couple of parts to the puzzle. > > One is the display controller ("synchronizer" in CDC terminology, the module that connects to the 6000 I/O channel). The 60125000 manual that was mentioned is the "block diagrams" manual for that (and several other) controllers. The block diagrams show the overall data flow and the general structure of the circuits, but they are not complete schematics. > > However, the full schematics also exist: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/63016700A_6600_Chassis_Tabs_12_Apr65.pdf > > The block diagram manual shows the waveforms generated by the controller. As you can see, they are pretty angular and straight lined. Each segment (between the small marks on the stroke) corresponds to a 100 ms clock cycle, with a one or two element step in X and/or Y. That must be closer to 100 ns? Typo? > > Incidentally, the 170 series display controller produces the same waveforms, though using a completely different (ROM based) design. > > The other part of the puzzle is the DD60 console display. That is fed from the 6602/6612 display controller by a bundle of coax cables. The waveforms are generated by A/D circuits (quite primitive ones) in the 6602, and travel in analog differential form to the DD60. There they go through a string of amplifiers and a scaling circuit, for the small/medium/large character size selection. Eventually they end up on the deflection plates of large electrostatic deflection CRTs. Much of the signal chain is early 1960s transistors; the final couple of stages are tubes. You can find the schematics at http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/82100010_dd60a_Mar65.pdf > > What appears to be going on is that the signal chain in the DD60 has enough bandwidth to draw the characters, but only barely. So there is distortion in the path, resulting in character shapes on the screen that are not the same as the nominal stroke patterns generated by the controller. > > I have converted the "chassis tabs 12" wire lists to a VHDL model, which you can find on my Subversion server. Run on GHDL, it demonstrates the behavior of the circuit and reproduces the documented waveforms. > > I have also attempted to create a SPICE model of the DD60 deflection signal path. So far that hasn't been all that successful. I probably have bad assumptions for the transistor models, and the CRT deflection plate capacitance figures are also a complete guess. My hope was to reproduce the actual screen patterns, but that hasn't worked yet. > > Finally, I did a much more primitive approximation of the DD60 signal path, with a couple of IIR filters that very roughly imitate the RC elements in that path. That was done as part of my console display emulator program for Tom Hunter's DtCyber program. It was somewhat successful in that the characters show some of the rounding and distortion that the real display has, but unfortunately I can't claim that this is because it's an accurate model. Nice work! --Toby > > By the way, the displays shown on the 170 series console (CDC 565) look somewhat different. ... > > paul > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 14:36:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 15:36:17 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <25B2A23D-E05D-4C48-9FC0-E0DD93E75E47@comcast.net> > On Jun 6, 2018, at 3:19 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > > On 2018-06-06 2:08 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> The block diagram manual shows the waveforms generated by the controller. As you can see, they are pretty angular and straight lined. Each segment (between the small marks on the stroke) corresponds to a 100 ms clock cycle, with a one or two element step in X and/or Y. > > That must be closer to 100 ns? Typo? Oops, yes of course, 100 ns (the 6000 series "minor cycle time", the master clock period). >> ... >> I have converted the "chassis tabs 12" wire lists to a VHDL model, which you can find on my Subversion server. Run on GHDL, it demonstrates the behavior of the circuit and reproduces the documented waveforms. >> >> I have also attempted to create a SPICE model of the DD60 deflection signal path. So far that hasn't been all that successful. I probably have bad assumptions for the transistor models, and the CRT deflection plate capacitance figures are also a complete guess. My hope was to reproduce the actual screen patterns, but that hasn't worked yet. >> >> Finally, I did a much more primitive approximation of the DD60 signal path, with a couple of IIR filters that very roughly imitate the RC elements in that path. That was done as part of my console display emulator program for Tom Hunter's DtCyber program. It was somewhat successful in that the characters show some of the rounding and distortion that the real display has, but unfortunately I can't claim that this is because it's an accurate model. > > Nice work! Thanks. If anyone is interested, the bits are open for inspection at svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/dtcyber/trunk -- the VHDL is in the "vhdl" subdirectory and the attempt at a SPICE model in the "spice" subdirectory. The console emulation is dd60.cpp. paul From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 14:40:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 12:40:08 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> One of the more interesting things about the DD60 display was the use of 2C43 "Lighthouse" UHF triode tubes to drive the CRT electrostatic deflection. Only being around briefly for the 170 system, I don't know how the magnetic deflection was driven there. I imagine that the cost of the DD60 was due in no small port by the use of the CRTs--I believe they were produced in Germany. As far as the keyboard, on more than one occasion, I discovered a CE using a Popsicle stick to probe around among the switches from the bottom. Another interesting aspect was the use of speaker to produce a keypress "chunk". The was a volume control accessible under the keyboard, so you could make the "chuck" to be quite loud. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 15:37:06 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 16:37:06 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> > On Jun 6, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > One of the more interesting things about the DD60 display was the use of > 2C43 "Lighthouse" UHF triode tubes to drive the CRT electrostatic > deflection. UHF, yes, but not those. The final state uses 3CX100A5 UHF transmitter tubes. The 2C43 would not appreciate the 2000 volt plate voltage used in that stage. The driver stages are fairly ordinary looking receiver style dual-triode tubes. > Only being around briefly for the 170 system, I don't know how the > magnetic deflection was driven there. > > I imagine that the cost of the DD60 was due in no small port by the use > of the CRTs--I believe they were produced in Germany. Really? It is shown as a K2263-P31, manufacturer Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation, Defense Products Div., Clifton NJ. I sure would like to get my hands on specs for that tube. In any case, they were sometimes referred to as "radar tubes" which sounds somewhat reasonable. Certainly very different from TV CRTs, and bigger than what's used in oscilloscopes, so they were most likely low volume which would explain a high price. paul From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 01:23:32 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 06:23:32 +0000 Subject: Parts help - need flight SRAMs In-Reply-To: References: <8A9F13F5-2729-4349-842B-027C3FDACBF2@swri.edu>, Message-ID: Quick search found it here. http://www.asap-memory.com/search.aspx?searchby=partno&searchkey=5962H9954103QXC MFD By BAE and Fairchild Wayne On Jun 5, 2018, at 6:06 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Tapley, Mark via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: I have a need at work for an unusual SRAM chip (related to the New Horizons mission). if you have a source or supply of these parts: Part #=5962H9954103QXC That's not a chip, it's a hybrid multi-chip module. Probably just about unobtanium now. If a datasheet is available, it wouldn't be hard to engineer a form/fit/function replacement, if it's for ground support and you don't need radiation-hardened or mil-spec. If no datasheet, could design from schematics of board it is used on. If no datasheet and no schematics... From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Jun 6 05:41:21 2018 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 12:41:21 +0200 Subject: Sudden death of the HP 239X terminals by whiskering Message-ID: <002e01d3fd82$e9ed5fa0$bdc81ee0$@xs4all.nl> Inspecting a newly acquired HP 2392A I found out the chassis was prone to whiskering all over the chassis. Whiskers are small metal hairs growing from pure metal (zinc or tin) and can when they connect to a power line create a shortage and electric arc damaging the electronics. Made some pictures and placed them in: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/41897770664/in/dateposted-public/ It's best to remove them by using scotch brite or fine sanding paper, after that paint or coat the chassis with a clear paint or other nonconducting paint. More info about whiskering can be found at: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29 -Rik From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 6 12:18:21 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 13:18:21 -0400 Subject: Sudden death of the HP 239X terminals by whiskering In-Reply-To: <002e01d3fd82$e9ed5fa0$bdc81ee0$@xs4all.nl> References: <002e01d3fd82$e9ed5fa0$bdc81ee0$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <163d61b4460-c90-f906@webjas-vad138.srv.aolmail.net> Probably best? to? do this? clean up on the chassis? before applying power to prevent? whiskers? from? conducting to? ?easy to destroy components? ? thanks? for the heads up... ? ed# www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 6/6/2018 3:41:29 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctech at classiccmp.org writes: ? Inspecting a newly acquired HP 2392A I found out the chassis was prone to whiskering all over the chassis. Whiskers are small metal hairs growing from pure metal (zinc or tin) and can when they connect to a power line create a shortage and electric arc damaging the electronics. Made some pictures and placed them in: https://www.flickr.com/photos/hp-fix/41897770664/in/dateposted-public/ It's best to remove them by using scotch brite or fine sanding paper, after that paint or coat the chassis with a clear paint or other nonconducting paint. More info about whiskering can be found at: https://nepp.nasa.gov/whisker/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whisker_%28metallurgy%29 -Rik From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:17:01 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 15:17:01 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> Message-ID: When you have "Defense Products Division" in your organization's name, "high price" comes with the products, ala $10,000 hammers and toilet seats (and "Fairchild Camera and Instrument Corporation" doesn't exactly evoke thoughts of Walmart pricing, either). I grew up a few stones' throws from Clifton - if I'd known when I was a kid that you would need this info, I could have dumpster-dived a king's fortune's worth to give to you now, probably along with some samples. Unfortunately, I would have had to incur the cost of storage for nearly six decades for that and all of the other "must-have" artifacts that I would have also scarfed up along with them ... I'm one of the early senior docents at the Computer History Museum in SillyCon Valley and yammered on endlessly about the 6600 and its neighbor, the 7600, but I never thought about character generation on the displays beyond it being vector-based drawing. I'm pretty sure it was done via look-up tables that directed the beams along vectors on the displays for the operating PDP-1 we play Spacewar! on as often as we like ... usually against its principal creator, fellow Se?or Docent, Steve Russell. All the Best, Jim On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 6, 2018, at 3:40 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > One of the more interesting things about the DD60 display was the use of > > 2C43 "Lighthouse" UHF triode tubes to drive the CRT electrostatic > > deflection. > > UHF, yes, but not those. The final state uses 3CX100A5 UHF transmitter > tubes. The 2C43 would not appreciate the 2000 volt plate voltage used in > that stage. The driver stages are fairly ordinary looking receiver style > dual-triode tubes. > > > Only being around briefly for the 170 system, I don't know how the > > magnetic deflection was driven there. > > > > I imagine that the cost of the DD60 was due in no small port by the use > > of the CRTs--I believe they were produced in Germany. > > Really? It is shown as a K2263-P31, manufacturer Fairchild Camera and > Instrument Corporation, Defense Products Div., Clifton NJ. I sure would > like to get my hands on specs for that tube. > > In any case, they were sometimes referred to as "radar tubes" which sounds > somewhat reasonable. Certainly very different from TV CRTs, and bigger > than what's used in oscilloscopes, so they were most likely low volume > which would explain a high price. > > paul > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 16:20:51 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:20:51 -0700 Subject: ISO: DD11-DF backplane Message-ID: Hi all -- I finally tracked down the EIS option for my 11/40 and I have it up and running nicely (Ultrix-11 ATM, but I'll be playing with other stuff). Right now I only have a 4-slot DD11 backplane for SPC/MUD boards and I'd like a bit more space for expansion. I have a few DD11-DK backplanes but without modifying the cabling it won't work in a BA11-F chassis. If anyone has a DD11-DF they'd be up for trading for the -DK variant (or for something else) please drop me a line. Thanks! Josh From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 16:26:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 17:26:43 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> Message-ID: <79D7F09F-B5D7-47BB-90B1-8A99EBB8F209@comcast.net> > On Jun 6, 2018, at 5:17 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > ... > I'm one of the early senior docents at the Computer History Museum in > SillyCon Valley and yammered on endlessly about the 6600 and its neighbor, > the 7600, but I never thought about character generation on the displays > beyond it being vector-based drawing. I'm pretty sure it was done via > look-up tables that directed the beams along vectors on the displays for > the operating PDP-1 we play Spacewar! The crazy thing about the 6000 series display controller is that it doesn't use tables at all. The selection of what stroke step to produce for a given character and point in time is defined by a very large collection of gates. The 170 controller does use table lookup (a ROM with the equivalent information). I wonder why a ROM wasn't used in the 6000. Perhaps they couldn't find a cost-effective technology that's fast enough? Core rope would work just fine for this, but not at 100 ns cycle time. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 17:06:44 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 18:06:44 -0400 Subject: ISO: DD11-DF backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi all -- > > I finally tracked down the EIS option for my 11/40 and I have it up and > running nicely (Ultrix-11 ATM, but I'll be playing with other stuff). > Right now I only have a 4-slot DD11 backplane for SPC/MUD boards and I'd > like a bit more space for expansion. > > I have a few DD11-DK backplanes but without modifying the cabling it won't > work in a BA11-F chassis. If anyone has a DD11-DF they'd be up for trading > for the -DK variant (or for something else) please drop me a line. > > Thanks! > Josh > Josh, Did you pull the Ultrix-11 from an image or make it yourself. I'd love to get a copy of this if you're able to image and post to the web, and I am sure simH folks could use this too. Glad to to hear you were able to get this running with the EIS, I was unsure if it was possible. How much RAM do you have? I will check to see if I have the backplane. Bill Degnan From jim.manley at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 17:30:55 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 16:30:55 -0600 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <79D7F09F-B5D7-47BB-90B1-8A99EBB8F209@comcast.net> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> <79D7F09F-B5D7-47BB-90B1-8A99EBB8F209@comcast.net> Message-ID: Using all of those gates to do brute-force logic for character vector generation is pretty brilliant. Edison was truly a genius because he invented and sold the electric light so that people could stay up late at night to listen to his phonograph invention that he also sold. The electric lights also eliminated the risk of coal tar condensing on the phonograph cylinders from coal gas lights on the walls. Seymour Cray was a genius because he observed that the fastest possible circuit is a wire, and that if you use the same length of wire for each bit in a word in cables between stages in a computer that you want to go as fast as possible, all of the bits will arrive at the next stage at the same time. That was important for computers that took up entire rooms, with circuit boards and racks far enough apart that upwards of a dozen nanoseconds could elapse as bits passed from stage to stage. IBM "solved" this synchronization problem in the 6600's contemporary, the Model 3090 (Stretch), using delay lines to hold bits arriving on shorter cables until bits arriving on longer cables could catch up. The last thing you want in a supercomputer is a component that has the word "delay" in it, and by using equal-length wires for every bit in a word between stages, you also reduce parts count. That means that you reduce parts and assembly labor costs, replacement parts costs, power and cooling costs (a very important function, back then), system volume and weight (and therefore, structural costs), and the costs of troubleshooting labor needed to identify which parts have failed that didn't need to be there in the first place (or additional circuitry to identify where faults occurred, adding yet-more of all of the above expenses). At the time, CDC had 39 employees, including Seymour and the janitor, while IBM's engineering and technician head-count alone was upwards of 20,000. The 6600s were the fastest computers in the world for over six years, and would have held the record longer, except that CDC's own 7600s eclipsed them. He hired local women with experience doing mind-numbing, repetitive, but precision tasks like knitting and needlepoint, to wire the interconnects between boards on the Cray 1s and 2s. However, they could gossip about who was seeing whom around town to while away the hours, for which they were paid less than technicians, but more than for any other work women could get back then. I'll bet they made fewer mistakes than alternative employees would have, too. Seymour told them how important their work was to the nation's defense, and they were proud of it (many Crays were used on DoD projects for advances in pure science, as well as engineering). "Things should be as simple as possible, but no simpler." -- Albert Einstein (talking about scientific education, but not a bad idea, in general) On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > The crazy thing about the 6000 series display controller is that it > doesn't use tables at all. The selection of what stroke step to produce > for a given character and point in time is defined by a very large > collection of gates. The 170 controller does use table lookup (a ROM with > the equivalent information). I wonder why a ROM wasn't used in the 6000. > Perhaps they couldn't find a cost-effective technology that's fast enough? > Core rope would work just fine for this, but not at 100 ns cycle time. > > paul > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 18:18:16 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 16:18:16 -0700 Subject: ISO: DD11-DF backplane In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 3:06 PM, Bill Degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 5:20 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> I finally tracked down the EIS option for my 11/40 and I have it up and >> running nicely (Ultrix-11 ATM, but I'll be playing with other stuff). >> Right now I only have a 4-slot DD11 backplane for SPC/MUD boards and I'd >> like a bit more space for expansion. >> >> I have a few DD11-DK backplanes but without modifying the cabling it won't >> work in a BA11-F chassis. If anyone has a DD11-DF they'd be up for >> trading >> for the -DK variant (or for something else) please drop me a line. >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> > > Josh, > Did you pull the Ultrix-11 from an image or make it yourself. I'd love to > get a copy of this if you're able to image and post to the web, and I am > sure simH folks could use this too. > I built it from the tape images on TUHS on SIMH and wrote it out to a real disk (cheated, since I'm fortunate enough to have a UNIBUS SCSI controller to play with). I'm happy to share it out, though it's not too hard to do manually -- there's a writeup at https://minnie.tuhs.org/Archive/Distributions/DEC/Ultrix-11/Fred-Ultrix3/setup-3.1.txt that covers the basics. > Glad to to hear you were able to get this running with the EIS, I was > unsure if it was possible. How much RAM do you have? > I have 128KW of MOS memory in the system (wish I had core, but I'll take what I can get). Ultrix runs fine, but it's tight and the lack of separate I+D spaces means some programs won't fit (vi, for example). I did manage to build a kernel with TCP/IP and Ethernet included, but I need the larger backplane in order to install the Ethernet controller to test it :). > > I will check to see if I have the backplane. > Thanks! - Josh > > Bill Degnan > > From rickb at bensene.com Wed Jun 6 19:01:13 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 17:01:13 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> Speaking of CDC 6x00/Cyber 70-series consoles... I had a bit of a scary but memorable experience of sitting at the console of a Cyber 73, many years ago. My job as a systems operator basically involved watching the console for magtape mount/dismount requests, printer service requests (e.g., out of paper), as well as in general monitoring the loading of the system, and assuring that all was running smoothly. The machine was running the KRONOS timesharing OS, with MODCOMP front-end communications processors providing serial terminal services. There were two MODCOMP machines (not sure of the model, but would recognize them) that provided literally 100's of serial ports for terminal access through, in the earlier days, various port-selector equipment, and later, through a Sytek LAN-based terminal server networked together with thin coax strung around the buildings. Anyway, I was sitting at the console one morning, and noted that very suddenly, the left tube's image coalesced into a single vertical line centered in the tube. At the same time, I heard a quiet cracking noise coming out of the area of the console where the CRTs and final drive circuity was located. The cracking noise very quickly increased in intensity, and then the vertical line of the left display (the right display stayed normal), suddenly collapsed into very bright dot in the center of the screen, then all at once, there was a loud BANG, the dot on the screen faded away quickly, the right screen went blank, and I was greeted by a shower of sparks and molten metal that spit out the slot underneath the tubes where the deadstart switch was located, and smoke coming out of the cooling slots in the cabinet. Then, there was a clunk (someone throwing the power switch for the console), and everything settled down fairly quickly, other than there was a lot of stinky smoke in the air. This whole sequence of events occurred in about 2 seconds. I had just enough time to push my feet against the electronics bay underneath the console, and shove myself away from the shower of sparks. I ended up with a small chunk of molten metal that landed on my left leg and burnt through the fabric of my slacks and burned my skin pretty good. There was a lot of acrid smoke that also came out of the console for a little while after the power was off. We were concerned that there was a fire in there, but as it turned out, fortunately, there wasn't. Other than the burn on my leg and a little hole in my slacks, I was unscathed. But, I was a bit stunned by what happened, and it took me a few moments to realize what had happened. The other people in the data center reacted quickly. One that was dismounting a tape on one of the drives that were situated behind the console by about 10 feet, ran to the master power switch on the console and shut it off. Another ran to me, and was checking me out to make sure I was OK. One of the other folks started up a magic program on the Cyber from a Tektronix 4023 terminal in the data center that effectively provided the same displays as the Cyber console, except only one of the displays could be viewed at a time. The display was updated using the addressable cursor of the 4023 terminal, though it wasn't nearly as "real-time" as the actual console displays. Commands could also be given in the same form as they could be keyed on the console keyboard. This served as the alternate console while the main console was dead. The smoke detection system in the data center triggered the fire suppression system (Halon in those days), and the klaxons went off indicating we had 30 (maybe it was 45, can't remember for sure) seconds to get out of the room before the Halon dumped and all the oxygen was flushed from the space. There was an abort switch on the back wall of the data center, and one of the other folks ran and hit the abort to keep the Halon from dumping (which was rather expensive to recharge). The fire department showed up almost immediately, because they were A) located at one corner of our business campus, and B) their station was tied into the fire systems in the data center, and were notified when the smoke sensors triggered. They came and checked everything out to make sure no lingering hot spots could spark fire. After the ruckus settled down, I resumed monitoring the system with the 4023 terminal, and operations proceeded normally. The outage of the console had no effect on the operation of the Cyber -- everything ran along just fine during the chaos. End users generally didn't even know it happened. We had onsite CDC service engineers, and they responded immediately. It turned out that one of the big driver tubes had failed in such a way it shorted, and that caused a cascade failure that eventually took out the other tube, and caused some pretty severe stress in other components in the high voltage power supply that ended up drastically overheating, resulting in the shower of sparks and some hot metal. One of the CRTs (the left one) had to be replaced. When the beam went to dead center, it burnt the phosphor out at that point. Both of the big final-stage driver tubes had to be replaced (even though only one had failed, they apparently had to be replaced in pairs). Some smaller vacuum tubes, wiring harnesses, circuit boards and IIRC, a transformer that were cooked also had to be replaced. Also, a few of the circuit modules in the base cabinet of the display were replaced. They had the console back up and running smoothly in a little over 4 hours. Amazingly, their local parts depot had everything they needed to repair the console in stock. One engineer ran into town to pick up the parts while the other tore into the console, and by the time the guy arrived with the parts, everything was stripped down, cleaned up, and ready for the new parts to go it. The little "fireworks" display I was front and center to witness will be something that I'll never forget. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 19:39:56 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:39:56 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> <79D7F09F-B5D7-47BB-90B1-8A99EBB8F209@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jun 6, 2018, at 6:30 PM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > > ... > Seymour Cray was a genius because he observed that the fastest possible > circuit is a wire, and that if you use the same length of wire for each bit > in a word in cables between stages in a computer that you want to go as > fast as possible, all of the bits will arrive at the next stage at the same > time. That was important for computers that took up entire rooms, with > circuit boards and racks far enough apart that upwards of a dozen > nanoseconds could elapse as bits passed from stage to stage. Yes. "Same length wire" is how I first heard it. When I started reading the 6600 wire lists I discovered that the reality is far messier. The PPUs aren't too bad, that is a 4 phase clock, where consecutive stages are clocked usually at 50 or 75 ns apart. For example, the consecutive stages of the barrel are clocked (mostly) at 75 ns difference. The CPU is much worse. It sometimes has 4 clock phases, but some parts look more like 6 or 7. If you study the block diagrams you'll see clock signals annotated by their offset from the zero reference, in increments of 5 ns. Not quite all of the 20 possible offsets are used, but more than half are. And it matters, as I found out the hard way while trying to get a VHDL model to work. The model includes the nominal gate delay (5 ns) and the rounded wire delay in 5 ns multiples for "long enough" wires. That mostly works. Replacing the clock tree by explicitly coded 5 ns multiple clock signals makes it better. Sometimes the documented value isn't quite right and you need to move things by 5 ns. Sometimes the same document gives two different timings for the same clock signal on different pages. Oh yes, then there are amazingly nutso things like flip-flops (which in the 6600 are R/S flops) where the R and S inputs are asserted at the same time, with pulses that both rise and fall roughly at the same time. I can fudge that. But it makes me wonder why the 6600 ever worked in the wild. For example, in the instruction issue and instruction stack logic I can get an "eq *-2" to work the first time and the second time but not the third: "not in stack" works, "in stack" works the first time because the "inch" is still underway, but by the second time the inch has stopped and my timing is off by 5 ns and things go utterly haywire. By tweaking nanoseconds I can move the problem but I have not yet made it go away. One place that does offer a fair amount of sanity is cross-cabinet connections; the coax cables are all the same and the nominal delay including driver and receiver is 25 ns, which nicely matches the semi-standard 4 phase clock. So tracing signals around a pile of cabinets works pretty well. Some of the data paths are quite amazing, because the memory fan-in and fan-out is routed through several other cabinets and the control signals are routed separately yet again. Tracking the signals for an exchange operation, for example, is quite an impressive dance of actions being launched fairly long in advance so they get to the memory latches at just the right time. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 6 19:46:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 20:46:46 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> > On Jun 6, 2018, at 8:01 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Speaking of CDC 6x00/Cyber 70-series consoles... > > I had a bit of a scary but memorable experience of sitting at the console of a Cyber 73, many years ago. > > ... > Anyway, I was sitting at the console one morning, and noted that very suddenly, the left tube's image coalesced into a single vertical line centered in the tube. At the same time, I heard a quiet cracking noise coming out of the area of the console where the CRTs and final drive circuity was located. The cracking noise very quickly increased in intensity, and then the vertical line of the left display (the right display stayed normal), ... > > We had onsite CDC service engineers, and they responded immediately. It turned out that one of the big driver tubes had failed in such a way it shorted, and that caused a cascade failure that eventually took out the other tube, and caused some pretty severe stress in other components in the high voltage power supply that ended up drastically overheating, resulting in the shower of sparks and some hot metal. > > One of the CRTs (the left one) had to be replaced. When the beam went to dead center, it burnt the phosphor out at that point. > Both of the big final-stage driver tubes had to be replaced (even though only one had failed, they apparently had to be replaced in pairs). Some smaller vacuum tubes, wiring harnesses, circuit boards and IIRC, a transformer that were cooked also had to be replaced. Also, a few of the circuit modules in the base cabinet of the display were replaced. That's really weird. Here's why. The DD60 only has a single set of X/Y drive chains. It's all differential, so there are four of everything, ending up at the pair of X and pair of Y plates of the CRTs. The X/Y amplifiers connect to both tubes. The reason you see two separate displays is that the tubes have separate unblank circuits. So the same character waveforms go to both, but at any given time only one of the two tubes has its beam turned on. Also, focus and astigmatism controls are separate for the two. See the schematics. I can try to explain what happened in front of you by broken wires or things like that, but it sure is hard to figure how that would cause fried tubes (other than the CRT, of course). paul From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 21:14:37 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 22:14:37 -0400 Subject: VCF East Photo Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mine here. It includes some bits from my other museums at the facility https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO6j53IKGboKAmsUmAdDoj4ugeEGd1igUOgfRMtBpIqaibPJX2USBG0crSDeICWsQ?key=aFpMdFNxYlBUZTBjTldJajN6RDlHVmJtblRhUTBn On Thu, May 24, 2018 at 8:09 AM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Many are appearing on the VCFed mailing list already >> > > To clarify: that's the VCF/Mid-Atlantic list. The only VCFed-wide > discussion board is VC Forum. :) > > > I had a good time and recommend the show to all who can make it out there >> > > Thanks! > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 6 21:28:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 19:28:35 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <9A196B15-AD46-4D82-BC3F-B0AA6B314C68@comcast.net> <79D7F09F-B5D7-47BB-90B1-8A99EBB8F209@comcast.net> Message-ID: <27911061-3053-cc69-6e2a-ad5db4d84813@sydex.com> On 06/06/2018 05:39 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Yes. "Same length wire" is how I first heard it. When I started reading the 6600 wire lists I discovered that the reality is far messier. The PPUs aren't too bad, that is a 4 phase clock, where consecutive stages are clocked usually at 50 or 75 ns apart. For example, the consecutive stages of the barrel are clocked (mostly) at 75 ns difference. My project manager at the time was Mike Miller, who related that as an EE fresh from the U of Minnesota, his first job at CDC was measuring the coils of wire on the 6600 to which Seymour had attached a tag that said "tune". Some who had done early work as CEs related the differences between SN 1 and the regular production runs. Apparently, the floating-point divide unit gave results that weren't duplicated by any other 6600. Rick's story makes me wonder why nothing like that ever happened to the DD60s at Sunnyvale. Since the systems were essentially full of QSEs owned by Special Systems, a lot of dedicated block time for OS development was available. I've witnessed coffee and coke spilled into the things--and the ever-present ash tray on the side. We used to be invaded by masses of crickets when the weather got cooler--SVLOPS was surrounded by onion fields and bugs would find their way inside. You could find crickets happily camping in your desk drawers--and they got into equipment by the hundreds. A couple of the CEs had a pet mouse that lived under the raised floor--I don't recall his name. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Wed Jun 6 21:50:22 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 22:50:22 -0400 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> do the prices keep increasing? ? In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Hi Folks. I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The introductory page is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". New items have been added and are listed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are listed, which will occur more regularly. As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Jun 6 21:57:22 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 02:57:22 +0000 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> References: , <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the asking price. C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a bit to move things along? ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM To: sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales do the prices keep increasing? In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hi Folks. I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The introductory page is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". New items have been added and are listed here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are listed, which will occur more regularly. As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From js at cimmeri.com Wed Jun 6 23:30:22 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 06 Jun 2018 23:30:22 -0500 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <5B18B4DE.9050404@cimmeri.com> Sellam, emailed you a few times -- no reply.. check your spam folder. > Hi Folks. > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > introductory page is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > > From rickb at bensene.com Thu Jun 7 01:50:01 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 23:50:01 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> Paul wrote, concerning my "fireworks" show on the DD60 console of Tektronix' Cyber 73 system: >That's really weird. Here's why. The DD60 only has a single set of X/Y drive chains. It's all differential, so there are four of everything, ?>ending up at the pair of X and pair of Y plates of the CRTs. The X/Y amplifiers connect to both tubes. The reason you see two separate >displays is that the tubes have separate unblank circuits. So the same character waveforms go to both, but at any given time only one >of the two tubes has its beam turned on. Also, focus and astigmatism controls are separate for the two. See the schematics. >I can try to explain what happened in front of you by broken wires or things like that, but it sure is hard to figure how that would cause >fried tubes (other than the CRT, of course). This happened probably somewhere between 35 and 40 years ago. I'm going from memory, and, as we know, memory over that long can be sketchy, so it's possible that I some bits were dropped or flipped over the ages. Believe me, the console did spit out a lot of sparks and little blobs of molten metal, along with quite a bit of smoke. I still have a small scar on my left leg where one of the little blobs of metal burned me after burning through the material of my slacks. I remember keenly one of the CDC field guys saying that one of the big driver tubes had shorted. There were quite a slew of other parts (including some smaller vacuum tubes) that ended up being replaced, as well as the left CRT tube which had a phosphor burn right in the center. What I observed, I remember quite clearly, although a lot happened in a short time, and it's entirely possible that the right tube may have also had something weird going on while I was watching what was going on with the left tube. I happened to be looking at the display up on the left tube when the failure occurred, so my attention wasn't directly on the right tube. I remember glimpsing quickly at the right tube noting that its display had disappeared as I was pushing the wheeled chair away from the console with my feet. Whatever the cause of the failure, it was something that surprised the CDC guys. Maybe the shorted tube was an artifact of the failure, and not the cause...hard to remember exactly. But, I do know that two of those big ceramic and metal tubes were replaced, as well as the left CRT, and a whole slew of other parts. And I do clearly remember them saying that the driver tubes had to be replaced in pairs. Anyway, all told, it was an interesting adventure. I loved those days...I have a photo of myself sitting at the console of that machine back in the day...probably some of the happiest times in my work career were those days at Tektronix. -Rick From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Wed Jun 6 23:59:42 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 21:59:42 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Hi Randy. I have stuff that you can't find on eBay. And I am not offering the eBay experience. This is me, Sellam, you are dealing with. When I can find actual closing sales online (I need some place to start), I generally go on the lower end of the mean of the data I find. It's a collectors market, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, but I'm trying. Do you know how to assess the value of items as diverse as what I'm listing? I do, it's a lot of work. Come help out if you have the time, I'll trade you for stuff. The listed prices are what I'm asking, as stated. I'm always open to offers, as stated. I price fairly, to move it, and if something sits for a while, you have a good chance of negotiating a price more to your liking, if you ask, but know that I am willing to sit on some things. I invested a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and money into my collection over many years. I'd like to recoup some of it. All you have done is propounded a broad-based whine. if there's something that interests you but the price is not right, let me know. I'm making many sales and many deals, stuff is moving. Ask and ye may well receive. Just be reasonable. Sellam On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the asking > price. > > > C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a bit to > move things along? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe via > cctalk > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM > *To:* sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales > > do the prices keep increasing? > > In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > Hi Folks. > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > introductory page is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From lars at nocrew.org Thu Jun 7 02:21:24 2018 From: lars at nocrew.org (Lars Brinkhoff) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 07:21:24 +0000 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: (Paul Koning via cctalk's message of "Wed, 6 Jun 2018 14:08:44 -0400") References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7wefhjcb9n.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Paul Koning wrote: > I have converted the "chassis tabs 12" wire lists to a VHDL model, > which you can find on my Subversion server. Run on GHDL, it > demonstrates the behavior of the circuit and reproduces the documented > waveforms. > > I have also attempted to create a SPICE model of the DD60 deflection > signal path. I wish more terminal emulators had this attention to detail! There's one called cool-retro-term which looks nice, but it's only mimicing superficial appearance. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 05:58:15 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 12:58:15 +0200 Subject: VCF East Photo Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2018 at 04:14, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > Mine here. It includes some bits from my other museums at the facility > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO6j53IKGboKAmsUmAdDoj4ugeEGd1igUOgfRMtBpIqaibPJX2USBG0crSDeICWsQ?key=aFpMdFNxYlBUZTBjTldJajN6RDlHVmJtblRhUTBn Thanks for that! I couldn't read some of the informational cards because they are short moving GIFs, rather than static images, but still interesting. It's weird to see stuff I would consider commonplace -- such as an Acorn A3020 -- or that I remember working with early in my career -- such as an Amstrad PPC -- in a museum display. Inter-continental variation, plus I'm old, although I don't feel it. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 7 08:19:39 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:19:39 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <848BBD72-7F5B-4D86-9BA6-E0C1035FE161@comcast.net> > On Jun 7, 2018, at 2:50 AM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > ... > > Believe me, the console did spit out a lot of sparks and little blobs of > molten metal, along with quite a bit of smoke. I still have a small > scar on my left leg where one of the little blobs of metal burned me > after burning through the material of my slacks. I definitely believe that. There's quite a lot of stored energy in that device: 2 kV power supplies with a pair of 4 uF filter capacitors, if things short out you will definitely get some excitement. > I remember keenly one of the CDC field guys saying that one of the big > driver tubes had shorted. There were quite a slew of other parts > (including some smaller vacuum tubes) that ended up being replaced, as > well as the left CRT tube which had a phosphor burn right in the center. > ... > > Whatever the cause of the failure, it was something that surprised the > CDC guys. Maybe the shorted tube was an artifact of the failure, and > not the cause...hard to remember exactly. But, I do know that two of > those big ceramic and metal tubes were replaced, as well as the left > CRT, and a whole slew of other parts. And I do clearly remember them > saying that the driver tubes had to be replaced in pairs. If the final drive tube shorts plate to grid, you'd get 2 kV working its way back into the previous stage. Those tubes are only rated for a few hundred volts on the plate. Not to mention that 2 kV feeding back into the previous stage power supply would be a problem also. As for replacing in pairs, it's a differential signal path and it would not be surprising if they required matched pairs. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 08:40:11 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 09:40:11 -0400 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Prices have seemed fair to me, I've bought a bit of stuff off Sellam over the last few months and he's been prompt in shipping, as well as willing to combine shipping costs. Nothing wrong in not giving your hardware away. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:59 AM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Randy. > > I have stuff that you can't find on eBay. And I am not offering the eBay > experience. This is me, Sellam, you are dealing with. > > When I can find actual closing sales online (I need some place to start), I > generally go on the lower end of the mean of the data I find. It's a > collectors market, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, but I'm trying. > Do you know how to assess the value of items as diverse as what I'm > listing? I do, it's a lot of work. Come help out if you have the time, > I'll trade you for stuff. > > The listed prices are what I'm asking, as stated. I'm always open to > offers, as stated. I price fairly, to move it, and if something sits for a > while, you have a good chance of negotiating a price more to your liking, > if you ask, but know that I am willing to sit on some things. I invested a > lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and money into my collection over > many years. I'd like to recoup some of it. > > All you have done is propounded a broad-based whine. if there's something > that interests you but the price is not right, let me know. I'm making > many sales and many deals, stuff is moving. Ask and ye may well receive. > Just be reasonable. > > Sellam > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Randy Dawson > wrote: > > > Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the asking > > price. > > > > > > C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a bit to > > move things along? > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe > via > > cctalk > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM > > *To:* sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > *Subject:* Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales > > > > do the prices keep increasing? > > > > In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > Hi Folks. > > > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > > introductory page is here: > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various > "rooms". > > > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > > response. > > > > Thanks! > > > > Sellam > > > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 08:53:51 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 15:53:51 +0200 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I can offer a free participation to my website http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ 2018-06-07 15:40 GMT+02:00 systems_glitch via cctalk : > Prices have seemed fair to me, I've bought a bit of stuff off Sellam over > the last few months and he's been prompt in shipping, as well as willing to > combine shipping costs. Nothing wrong in not giving your hardware away. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:59 AM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Hi Randy. >> >> I have stuff that you can't find on eBay. And I am not offering the eBay >> experience. This is me, Sellam, you are dealing with. >> >> When I can find actual closing sales online (I need some place to start), I >> generally go on the lower end of the mean of the data I find. It's a >> collectors market, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, but I'm trying. >> Do you know how to assess the value of items as diverse as what I'm >> listing? I do, it's a lot of work. Come help out if you have the time, >> I'll trade you for stuff. >> >> The listed prices are what I'm asking, as stated. I'm always open to >> offers, as stated. I price fairly, to move it, and if something sits for a >> while, you have a good chance of negotiating a price more to your liking, >> if you ask, but know that I am willing to sit on some things. I invested a >> lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and money into my collection over >> many years. I'd like to recoup some of it. >> >> All you have done is propounded a broad-based whine. if there's something >> that interests you but the price is not right, let me know. I'm making >> many sales and many deals, stuff is moving. Ask and ye may well receive. >> Just be reasonable. >> >> Sellam >> >> On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Randy Dawson >> wrote: >> >> > Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the asking >> > price. >> > >> > >> > C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a bit to >> > move things along? >> > >> > >> > ------------------------------ >> > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe >> via >> > cctalk >> > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM >> > *To:* sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org >> > *Subject:* Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales >> > >> > do the prices keep increasing? >> > >> > In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: >> > >> > >> > Hi Folks. >> > >> > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The >> > introductory page is here: >> > >> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ >> > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 >> > >> > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various >> "rooms". >> > >> > New items have been added and are listed here: >> > >> > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ >> > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 >> > >> > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first >> > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will >> > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are >> > listed, which will occur more regularly. >> > >> > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest >> > response. >> > >> > Thanks! >> > >> > Sellam >> > >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 09:12:02 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 15:12:02 +0100 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <00c701d3fe69$829461e0$87bd25a0$@gmail.com> Some of the Q-BUS stuff is very cheap. Pity I am in the UK. I thought the Atari Mega ST4 was a little expensive given its untested. I know it needs a special video lead to test but mine popped a video driver. Also technically it doesn't usually boot from disk. The OS is in ROM but it will read a settings file from floppy. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of systems_glitch > via cctalk > Sent: 07 June 2018 14:40 > To: Sellam Ismail ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales > > Prices have seemed fair to me, I've bought a bit of stuff off Sellam over the > last few months and he's been prompt in shipping, as well as willing to > combine shipping costs. Nothing wrong in not giving your hardware away. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 12:59 AM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi Randy. > > > > I have stuff that you can't find on eBay. And I am not offering the > > eBay experience. This is me, Sellam, you are dealing with. > > > > When I can find actual closing sales online (I need some place to > > start), I generally go on the lower end of the mean of the data I > > find. It's a collectors market, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, but > I'm trying. > > Do you know how to assess the value of items as diverse as what I'm > > listing? I do, it's a lot of work. Come help out if you have the > > time, I'll trade you for stuff. > > > > The listed prices are what I'm asking, as stated. I'm always open to > > offers, as stated. I price fairly, to move it, and if something sits > > for a while, you have a good chance of negotiating a price more to > > your liking, if you ask, but know that I am willing to sit on some > > things. I invested a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and > > money into my collection over many years. I'd like to recoup some of it. > > > > All you have done is propounded a broad-based whine. if there's > > something that interests you but the price is not right, let me know. > > I'm making many sales and many deals, stuff is moving. Ask and ye may > well receive. > > Just be reasonable. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Randy Dawson > > > wrote: > > > > > Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the > > > asking price. > > > > > > > > > C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a > > > bit to move things along? > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Ed > > > Sharpe > > via > > > cctalk > > > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM > > > *To:* sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > *Subject:* Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales > > > > > > do the prices keep increasing? > > > > > > In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > > > > > > > Hi Folks. > > > > > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > > > introductory page is here: > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > > > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > > > > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various > > "rooms". > > > > > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > > > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > > > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > > > > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the > > > first place you should check when you visit my virtual online > > > warehouse. I will post a message to this list and the VCFed forums > > > whenever new items are listed, which will occur more regularly. > > > > > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > > > response. > > > > > > Thanks! > > > > > > Sellam > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 7 09:19:12 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 10:19:12 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <7wefhjcb9n.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <7wefhjcb9n.fsf@junk.nocrew.org> Message-ID: <59AEB2AF-FBC5-42AD-855E-61FE75075B72@comcast.net> > On Jun 7, 2018, at 3:21 AM, Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk wrote: > > Paul Koning wrote: >> I have converted the "chassis tabs 12" wire lists to a VHDL model, >> which you can find on my Subversion server. Run on GHDL, it >> demonstrates the behavior of the circuit and reproduces the documented >> waveforms. >> >> I have also attempted to create a SPICE model of the DD60 deflection >> signal path. > > I wish more terminal emulators had this attention to detail! Thanks! The SPICE model isn't in the display emulator. I was thinking that if I could make it look correct, I'd measure the impulse response and use that for an FIR filter that would go in the emulator, replacing the current hand-hacked IIR filters. The emulator does have some attention to detail. It uses the controller's stroke shapes, adjusted by those IIR filters. Then I apply a Gaussian distribution to mimic the CRT spot (width controlled by the focus control). The resulting shapes are saved. Then to plot a character, I add that into the pixel map, with saturation and decay. The idea of simulating the decay was lifted from Phil Budne's work in SIMH. Yes, that pretty nicely simulates the actual display, about as accurately as you might hope to do in software. It could be done better in an FPGA, that would be an interesting project for LCM (6000 channel in, HDMI out). paul From ethan at 757.org Thu Jun 7 09:23:44 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 10:23:44 -0400 (EDT) Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: <00c701d3fe69$829461e0$87bd25a0$@gmail.com> References: <163d826f4f4-c91-3b2a@webjas-vae068.srv.aolmail.net> <00c701d3fe69$829461e0$87bd25a0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Some of the Q-BUS stuff is very cheap. Pity I am in the UK. I thought > the Atari Mega ST4 was a little expensive given its untested. I know it > needs a special video lead to test but mine popped a video driver. Also > technically it doesn't usually boot from disk. The OS is in ROM but it > will read a settings file from floppy. On Atari Mega 2s, the two I have come across has bad internal floppy drives. And they're really cool looking, so no desire to replace with a generic PC one (that will work, but not fit the plastic.) So I opted on mine to add an ultrasatan board mounted to the RF shield internally, with the SD card exposed on the back where the epansion board cover is. I used an external floppy to copy software to the SD card on the ultrasatan. My friend landed a Mega 2 as well, and his drive was bad as well. I haven't attempted to repair yet but it might be worthwhile to figure out what the failure is on these rarities. - Ethan -- : Ethan O'Toole From nf6x at nf6x.net Thu Jun 7 10:19:28 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 08:19:28 -0700 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <18A84511-0264-4655-884B-2AB54BE7D0A3@nf6x.net> > On Jun 6, 2018, at 11:50 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > > Believe me, the console did spit out a lot of sparks and little blobs of > molten metal, along with quite a bit of smoke. I still have a small > scar on my left leg where one of the little blobs of metal burned me > after burning through the material of my slacks. This reminds me of every TV show and movie I've seen where consoles begin exploding on a space ship during a battle. All of this time, I thought that was entirely a Hollywood fabrication! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 10:30:15 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 11:30:15 -0400 Subject: CDC 6600 display character generation In-Reply-To: <18A84511-0264-4655-884B-2AB54BE7D0A3@nf6x.net> References: <20180606134843.B408F18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <2bf7c1f1-d98a-3327-ef7b-484c8407401c@telegraphics.com.au> <82e77024-ed45-b766-d30c-19b3188dffd9@sydex.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B247@mail.bensene.com> <5F7189D7-C681-49D7-AA0D-47B3255E5A1A@comcast.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B249@mail.bensene.com> <18A84511-0264-4655-884B-2AB54BE7D0A3@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > This reminds me of every TV show and movie I've seen where consoles begin exploding on a space ship during a battle. All of this time, I thought that was entirely a Hollywood fabrication! Given all the jenky engineering in the tube circuits inside a DD60, I am surprised more of them did not get all sparkly. -- Will From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Jun 7 14:49:22 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Thu, 07 Jun 2018 20:49:22 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics Message-ID: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I am trying to repair a VAX 4000 power supply. Does anyone have the schematics? I can't find anything on BitSavers and I'm not completely convinced it was even designed by DEC. The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also replaced. If anyone has schematics, or know where I might find them, it would be much appreciated. Thanks, Aaron. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 7 14:55:15 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 15:55:15 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: There is a guy named at Joel from global-itcorp.com who has experience with these, he may have an idea. Tell him you spoke with Bill Degnan. b On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I am trying to repair a VAX 4000 power supply. Does anyone have the > schematics? I can't find anything on BitSavers and I'm not completely > convinced it was even designed by DEC. > > The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not > illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from > the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have > replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also > replaced. > > If anyone has schematics, or know where I might find them, it would be > much appreciated. > > Thanks, > Aaron. > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jun 8 02:58:31 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 09:58:31 +0200 (CEST) Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, Aaron Jackson wrote: > The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not > illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from > the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have > replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also > replaced. If that's all that you replaced, no wonder it still doesn't work ;-) Usually shorted power transistors in SMPSUs also break one or more fusable resistors, maybe some diodes, maybe the driver IC or transistors. So if you have anything that "exploded" in the power supply, be sure there is more work to be invested that replacing the obious parts. Christian From kurt at hamm.me Thu Jun 7 12:50:24 2018 From: kurt at hamm.me (Kurt Hamm) Date: Thu, 7 Jun 2018 13:50:24 -0400 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales Message-ID: I, too, have emailed Sellam with no response. But, I guess I am adding to the "broad-based whine" Wow. Kurt. ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Sellam Ismail To: Randy Dawson Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> Bcc: Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 21:59:42 -0700 Subject: Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales Hi Randy. I have stuff that you can't find on eBay. And I am not offering the eBay experience. This is me, Sellam, you are dealing with. When I can find actual closing sales online (I need some place to start), I generally go on the lower end of the mean of the data I find. It's a collectors market, sometimes I'm high, sometimes I'm low, but I'm trying. Do you know how to assess the value of items as diverse as what I'm listing? I do, it's a lot of work. Come help out if you have the time, I'll trade you for stuff. The listed prices are what I'm asking, as stated. I'm always open to offers, as stated. I price fairly, to move it, and if something sits for a while, you have a good chance of negotiating a price more to your liking, if you ask, but know that I am willing to sit on some things. I invested a lot of time, effort, blood, sweat, tears and money into my collection over many years. I'd like to recoup some of it. All you have done is propounded a broad-based whine. if there's something that interests you but the price is not right, let me know. I'm making many sales and many deals, stuff is moving. Ask and ye may well receive. Just be reasonable. Sellam On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 7:57 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Inspired by ebay for all the items there that never sell for the asking > price. > > > C'mon Sellam, you want to get out, how about lowering the prices a bit to > move things along? > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Ed Sharpe via > cctalk > *Sent:* Wednesday, June 6, 2018 7:50 PM > *To:* sellam.ismail at gmail.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; > cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales > > do the prices keep increasing? > > In a message dated 6/4/2018 10:02:53 PM US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > > Hi Folks. > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > introductory page is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Jun 8 05:38:00 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 11:38:00 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87a7s5ef7b.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not >> illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from >> the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have >> replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also >> replaced. > > If that's all that you replaced, no wonder it still doesn't work ;-) > Usually shorted power transistors in SMPSUs also break one or more fusable > resistors, maybe some diodes, maybe the driver IC or transistors. > So if you have anything that "exploded" in the power supply, be sure there > is more work to be invested that replacing the obious parts. > > Christian Haha, okay, seems reasonable. I'll have to probe about a lot more then. Not giving up quite yet, even though everything I have read about this power supply has said that it is difficult to repair. So far, I would agree with such a statement. Thanks, Aaron. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Jun 8 05:38:43 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Jun 2018 11:38:43 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <878t7pef64.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Thanks Bill. I emailed him, some decent advice but mostly prices :) Aaron Bill Degnan writes: > There is a guy named at Joel from global-itcorp.com who has experience with > these, he may have an idea. Tell him you spoke with Bill Degnan. > b > > On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 3:49 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I am trying to repair a VAX 4000 power supply. Does anyone have the >> schematics? I can't find anything on BitSavers and I'm not completely >> convinced it was even designed by DEC. >> >> The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not >> illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from >> the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have >> replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also >> replaced. >> >> If anyone has schematics, or know where I might find them, it would be >> much appreciated. >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. >> >> -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From holm at freibergnet.de Fri Jun 8 08:04:02 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 15:04:02 +0200 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: <87a7s5ef7b.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87a7s5ef7b.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <20180608130402.GB92493@beast.freibergnet.de> Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, Aaron Jackson wrote: > >> The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not > >> illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from > >> the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have > >> replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also > >> replaced. > > > > If that's all that you replaced, no wonder it still doesn't work ;-) > > Usually shorted power transistors in SMPSUs also break one or more fusable > > resistors, maybe some diodes, maybe the driver IC or transistors. > > So if you have anything that "exploded" in the power supply, be sure there > > is more work to be invested that replacing the obious parts. > > > > Christian > > Haha, okay, seems reasonable. I'll have to probe about a lot more > then. Not giving up quite yet, even though everything I have read about > this power supply has said that it is difficult to repair. So far, I > would agree with such a statement. > > Thanks, > Aaron. Difficult to repair? Probably since it is the worst switching PSU Desing I ever meet, at least from seriveability and the mechanical point of view. I own an 4000/300 with an working again PSU (after some capacitor changes) and I habe an PSU from a friend here..its works sometimes, mostly not. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Fri Jun 8 08:35:30 2018 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 08:35:30 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Looking for an ex-Sun employee; Alan Charlesworth Message-ID: Hey all; I'd love to talk to Alan Charlesworth, who used to work for Sun and (I believe) CRS before that. I'm interested in his perspective on some historical happenings and Sun design work. If anyone knows him and might be willing to get me in contact with him I'd very much appreciate it. Unfortunately while I can find several papers he's written they all provide his Sun address, and there are three other prominent Alan Charlesworths that are making searching for him difficult. My thanks for your help; - JP From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 8 10:58:16 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 8 Jun 2018 11:58:16 -0400 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: <20180608130402.GB92493@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87a7s5ef7b.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <20180608130402.GB92493@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: I have one or two mostly new 4000 supplies here, plus two working 4000's. Did not know until recently this was an issue, I guess I have been lucky. b On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, Aaron Jackson wrote: > > >> The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not > > >> illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from > > >> the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have > > >> replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also > > >> replaced. > > > > > > If that's all that you replaced, no wonder it still doesn't work ;-) > > > Usually shorted power transistors in SMPSUs also break one or more > fusable > > > resistors, maybe some diodes, maybe the driver IC or transistors. > > > So if you have anything that "exploded" in the power supply, be sure > there > > > is more work to be invested that replacing the obious parts. > > > > > > Christian > > > > Haha, okay, seems reasonable. I'll have to probe about a lot more > > then. Not giving up quite yet, even though everything I have read about > > this power supply has said that it is difficult to repair. So far, I > > would agree with such a statement. > > > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > > Difficult to repair? Probably since it is the worst switching PSU Desing > I ever meet, at least from seriveability and the mechanical point of view. > > I own an 4000/300 with an working again PSU (after some capacitor > changes) and I habe an PSU from a friend here..its works sometimes, > mostly not. > > Regards, > > Holm > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Jun 9 04:58:47 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 10:58:47 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000 PSU (H7874) Schematics In-Reply-To: References: <87efhie5rx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87a7s5ef7b.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <20180608130402.GB92493@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <87po108enc.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hopefully you have changed the caps before the leak all over your board :) Bill Degnan writes: > I have one or two mostly new 4000 supplies here, plus two working 4000's. > Did not know until recently this was an issue, I guess I have been lucky. > b > > On Fri, Jun 8, 2018 at 9:04 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk > wrote: > >> Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> >> > > On Thu, 7 Jun 2018, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> > >> The VAX turns on and the status LED stays on F. The DC lamp does not >> > >> illuminate on the PSU. 5V rail appears fine but there is nothing from >> > >> the 12V rail. There were some *very* dodgy looking caps which I have >> > >> replaced, and some *very* exploded MOSFETs, which I have also >> > >> replaced. >> > > >> > > If that's all that you replaced, no wonder it still doesn't work ;-) >> > > Usually shorted power transistors in SMPSUs also break one or more >> fusable >> > > resistors, maybe some diodes, maybe the driver IC or transistors. >> > > So if you have anything that "exploded" in the power supply, be sure >> there >> > > is more work to be invested that replacing the obious parts. >> > > >> > > Christian >> > >> > Haha, okay, seems reasonable. I'll have to probe about a lot more >> > then. Not giving up quite yet, even though everything I have read about >> > this power supply has said that it is difficult to repair. So far, I >> > would agree with such a statement. >> > >> > Thanks, >> > Aaron. >> >> Difficult to repair? Probably since it is the worst switching PSU Desing >> I ever meet, at least from seriveability and the mechanical point of view. >> >> I own an 4000/300 with an working again PSU (after some capacitor >> changes) and I habe an PSU from a friend here..its works sometimes, >> mostly not. >> >> Regards, >> >> Holm >> >> -- >> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >> info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >> >> -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 9 12:16:26 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 09 Jun 2018 12:16:26 -0500 Subject: brand new DC600A data cartridges Message-ID: <5B1C0B6A.1050905@pico-systems.com> Anybody need DC600A data cartridges? These are still in the carrying case, wrapped in the sealed wrapper. I have a box of 5. They are from early 1990's. I also have one used cart, but it is pretty dusty. Jon From ethan at 757.org Sat Jun 9 16:22:13 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sat, 9 Jun 2018 17:22:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: ISO: Seattle Computer Producs 300 S100 board Message-ID: I jumped the gun and bought a SCP 200B board. I grew up a DOS kid, so figured it would be fun to run 86-DOS. I found out about the SCP 300 board, that contains the boot loader and serial port. Anyone have an extra they would be interested in unloading? Thanks -- : Ethan O'Toole From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Jun 10 19:43:03 2018 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 20:43:03 -0400 Subject: VCF East Photo Thread In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 7, 2018 at 6:58 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, 7 Jun 2018 at 04:14, Tony Aiuto via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Mine here. It includes some bits from my other museums at the facility > > > > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipO6j53IKGboKAmsUmAdDoj4ug > eEGd1igUOgfRMtBpIqaibPJX2USBG0crSDeICWsQ?key= > aFpMdFNxYlBUZTBjTldJajN6RDlHVmJtblRhUTBn > > Thanks for that! > > I couldn't read some of the informational cards because they are short > moving GIFs, rather than static images, but still interesting. > They were not really GIFs, in my fumble fingering without wearing my glasses I had my phone on movie instead of still too often. So I was taking short videos instead of still images. My bad. > > It's weird to see stuff I would consider commonplace -- such as an > Acorn A3020 -- or that I remember working with early in my career -- > such as an Amstrad PPC -- in a museum display. Inter-continental > variation, plus I'm old, although I don't feel it. > One thing was abundantly clear, the Europeans had a lot better case design in their home consumer machines than the Americans did. We got a choice of shade of beige and slightly different proportions of the rectilinear box. That is, until the iMac broke with tradition and allowed color. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 19:39:25 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 20:39:25 -0400 Subject: pdp8e rack header wanted (will trade for PDP 11 header) Message-ID: Anyone want to trade a pdp8e rack header for a PDP 11 (pink/red) header? Does not have to be perfect. I am located in Landenberg, PA USA. I have other DEC rack-related parts to trade for this if that's not what you want. b From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sun Jun 10 11:46:00 2018 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sun, 10 Jun 2018 19:46:00 +0300 Subject: TI System V? In-Reply-To: <56A06FFA.7090008@gmail.com> References: <56A06FFA.7090008@gmail.com> Message-ID: I also have one system - S1507, however the disk is dead... On Thu, Jan 21, 2016 at 7:43 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Anyone have any idea where one might track down a copy of TI System V for > the S1500 series? > > I've had these two TI UNIX systems for awhile now, a TI S1505 and a TI > S1507 (68030 and 68040-based, respectively). They came without hard drives > or OS media and so they've basically been doorstops. I asked around about > OS media back when I got them (in 2013) and at the time I got no leads; I'm > guessing things probably haven't changed, but I figured I'd ask again just > in case... > > Seem like nice machines, wish I could do something with 'em... > > - Josh > > From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Jun 11 13:07:06 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 11 Jun 2018 14:07:06 -0400 Subject: SunBlade 2000 workstations Message-ID: I have 3 sunblade 2000 workstations for sale. They arrived as surplus equipment. One of the machines does not power on, the other two boot up to sun os with proprietary software that was used from the company they came from. THe drives must be wiped before i send them out. They are quite heavy, so that will be a factor in shipping. I am open to offers on a single machine or the whole lot, if you have any questions feel free to ask. I have some spare cpu's that fit the machines as well, although they all appear to have 2 cpu's installed already. --Devin D. From mbbrutman at brutman.com Tue Jun 12 11:53:21 2018 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 09:53:21 -0700 Subject: VCF PNW 2018: Video is finally available! Message-ID: Video from our speakers at VCF PNW 2018 is now available. For those of you who have been asking thanks for being patient https://www.youtube.com/c/VintageComputerFederation501c3 Regards, Mike (/me slowly builds up the courage to start planning for VCF PNW 2019) From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 02:57:27 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:57:27 +0200 Subject: CDC 9762 drive, alignment disk and exerciser on Ebay. Message-ID: Someone is selling a drive that was just taken out of service ! And alignment disks and exercisers for CDC 9762 (it doesn't look like a 9766 / RM05 even though it says so in the listing) Probably useful to RM02 or RM03 owners as well. https://www.ebay.de/sch/rbembenek1/m.html?item=142830473695&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562 From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Jun 12 23:17:03 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 12 Jun 2018 23:17:03 -0500 Subject: Announcement: VCF Midwest 13! Message-ID: Summer is almost here and that means it's time to get it in gear and start planning our next Vintage Computer Festival Midwest. Astute readers will note that this announcement comes many weeks later than in past years, but rest assured there is still plenty of time remaining to make your travel plans, reserve a table or get yourself into the mood for a full weekend of classic computing fun. Here are the necessaries: What: The Thirteenth Vintage Computer Festival Midwest When: September 15-16, 2018 (note that that's one weekend later than the usual dates!) Where: The Holiday Inn Elk Grove Village, Elk Grove Village, Illinois - about 30 minutes west of Chicago with a free shuttle bus from ORD! URL: http://vcfmw.org More info for the uninitiated and VCFMW veterans alike: - We do not charge admission. Thus, we are a community-supported show, so we humbly beg your kind donations, which can be made via two different links at vcfmw.org, or at the show. - Always an entertaining spectacle, there will once again be an auction! This is the other way we fund the show, so your donation of old computers (or anything even marginally related) is greatly appreciated. If it's a little too nice to put in the Free Pile, please consider donating it as an auction item. - Typical show hours are 9am Saturday 'til late night, and then 9am-4pm on Sunday (clean-up begins around 3pm). Early load-in is usually available on Friday afternoon, hours at the hotel's discretion. - The show really begins on Friday night, at least for exhibitors. We typically go for an informal group dinner and return to the hotel to complete setup. Don't worry if you're getting into town late, you can still set up Friday night (until 11pm or so). If you're arriving Saturday morning, your table will still be reserved. - Tables fill up quickly! If you'd like to exhibit, please fill out the table reservation form at http://vcfmw.org/signup.html. If the form is closed, it's because the buffer filled up and we're still processing requests. We don't want to reserve space we don't have! - Hotel rooms at the Holiday Inn are available at the group rate of $92/night via the link at vcfmw.org, or by calling the hotel at the number listed on our site. If the online room block is full, please try calling the hotel directly. - There is an on-site restaurant in the hotel that serves breakfast through dinner and a bar that is open late-ish. Consensus seems to be that they have good food and not having to leave the hotel to eat is a big plus. Feel free to forward this email or post its contents to your favorite forum. We'll see you in September! -j Twitter: https://twitter.com/vcfmidwest Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/events/248644859019545 From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Jun 13 14:03:34 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:03:34 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Announcement: VCF Midwest 13! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 12 Jun 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Summer is almost here and that means it's time to get it in gear and > start planning our next Vintage Computer Festival Midwest. Astute Ping me when the shirts are ready. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Jun 13 14:16:15 2018 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 21:16:15 +0200 Subject: eBay search fail In-Reply-To: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20180613191615.GA95391@beast.freibergnet.de> Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So someone mentioned this to me: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 > > Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for newly > listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! I just > did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there either - > although a search for sold "PDP-11 parts" turns it up! > > Anyone have any idea why it didn't turn up? That is a regular '-', not an > mdash or anything, and those are 1's, not lower-case l's. And it does show up > in the search for "PDP-11 parts". So I can only conclude that somehow eBait's > search function blew out somehow? > > Anyway, someone got a total steal: at least _3_ H960's, a TU10, and an -11/45 > (can't tell if there's an FP11) - and who knows what else is hidden! > > Noel Ebay's search engine is unusable here in europe for years now. I don't even get te item when I do a search for "222941705847", the item number of your link above. Maybe that's since it isn't listet for international buyers, but you could'nt even find it to see pictures. another thing are many chinese items that's listed for international buyers, they simply don't get listed here. I can find them with ebay.com and I can buy them, no problem. My answer to this? Use Aliexpress, the Americans (Ebay) doesn't want my money. If you don't care for your customers, anyone else will. I do habe an ebay.com account too since I've done some businnes with us customers years before, beu I have stopped any selling over ebay for some years, provisions from ebay and paypal + costs to insert articles where higer then the the income. If you do a search for AM298* to get eome of the old AM 29xx Chipset devices, you currently get 2 items where AM298-43 is in the description, do a search for am29821 and you get many items. Don't know what they want, for sure they don't want you to find items you need... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jun 13 14:45:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 12:45:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: eBay search fails In-Reply-To: <20180613191615.GA95391@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20180501025438.D3D5518C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180613191615.GA95391@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So someone mentioned this to me: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/222941705847 > Now, the crazy thing is that I religously do a search for "PDP-11" for newly > listed items on eBait at least once a day - and this never showed up! I just > did a search for sold "PDP-11" items, and it's not showing up there either - > although a search for sold "PDP-11 parts" turns it up! > Anyone have any idea why it didn't turn up? That is a regular '-', not an > mdash or anything, and those are 1's, not lower-case l's. And it does show up > in the search for "PDP-11 parts". So I can only conclude that somehow eBait's > search function blew out somehow? > Anyway, someone got a total steal: at least _3_ H960's, a TU10, and an -11/45 > (can't tell if there's an FP11) - and who knows what else is hidden! > > Ebay's search engine is unusable here in europe for years now. The URL works for me. Then, to SEARCH for it, I need to go to "Advanced", and include "completed". It does NOT come up using "PDP-11". BUT, it comes up with "Digital PDP-11"! Yes, eBait's search function blows. I have experienced a number of cases where adding an "OR" (eBay's punctuation for that is a comma delimited list in parentheses), will REDUCE the number of hits, which it absolutely shouldn't do. And, I have encountered situations (like this), where an extra ANDed term increases the number of hits. Yes, it IS broken. You can still make it work. Most of the time. But, several aspects of it do NOT work as they are intended to. It also, like Amazon, will try to be "helpful", and include synonyms that you did NOT want. They discontinued wildcards ("comput*"), so you now have to include both singular and plural. SOMETIMES. Sometimes it will "helpfully" match with the other that you didn't include for you. Sometimes not. If the bulk of the hits are in one category, it may switch from "ALL CATEGORIES" to that category, in defiance of your request. For example, a search for "Nextec" switches from a requested "All Categoires" to a category of "Power Tools", cutting out numerous legitimate hits. (I have been looking for the POLE PRUNER that was very briefly part of the Nextec (Sears) line, and in the rare cases where there is one, it is usually NOT in "Power Tools".) I suspect that ONE of the problems stems from use of the same character to mean both hyphen and minus sign, depending on apaces, other puntuation, or context. Could it be that when using "Digital PDP-11" or "PDP-11 parts", it is functioning correctly, but "PDP-11" by itself is causing it to misinterpret as a minus sign, to exclude "11". It certainly SHOULDN'T be doing that, but that screw-up coulod account for the behavior. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jun 13 07:33:01 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 08:33:01 -0400 Subject: Apple (Lisa 2/10) MAC XL UNIX 5 Message-ID: I have a diskette labeled UNIX SYSTEM V VPI UNIX disk 'A' (vpi)* 8/85 UniPress Software, Inc. I have the small installation manual that talks about inserting the disk to serialize it, and how to install UNIX onto the Lisa 2/10 in Mac XL Mode. It is a small implementation of AT&T UNIX V. The disk is bad. Anyone have a process for recovering or reading an Apple Mac XL disk? This seems like a piece of software that should be preserved, as a curiosity. Does anyone actually have a working copy of UniPress Software UNIX for the Lisa XL? Bill From ray at arachelian.com Wed Jun 13 08:32:28 2018 From: ray at arachelian.com (Ray Arachelian) Date: Wed, 13 Jun 2018 09:32:28 -0400 Subject: Apple (Lisa 2/10) MAC XL UNIX 5 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <347b0173-6ca0-6e5a-93cf-169d2697ee33@arachelian.com> Depending on what version of UniPlus that is, a version was found a few years ago which was imaged and is installable.? UniPlus is a bunch of floppies (a bit under twenty off the top of my head), not just one, if you have the full set and it's a different version than what's out there already and can recover it, it would be useful. I don't know what VPI is, so you might actually have something that's somewhat unique! Do you have a classic Mac with an 800K or 400K floppy drive that can be used?? If so, see if you can make an image using Copy II Mac.? You can try one of the Mac software archives such as Macintosh Garden or other abandonware sites for this.? You can even use your Lisa to run Copy II Mac if you have MacWorks. Alternatively if you have a Lisa you can try BLU http://sigmasevensystems.com/BLU.html ? but not sure if it will handle bad blocks. Each Lisa has a serial number written in the VSROM (Video State ROM) which drives the horizontal and vertical signals for the CRT state machine.? Part of this hides a bunch of bits for the serial number.? The BOOT ROM reads this on startup and writes the serial number to low memory before booting an OS.? Some software such as UniPlus and Lisa Office System will brand their applications with the serial number of the machine it was installed on to prevent copying. UniPlus did something more, their install disk actually used activation.? It would take the Lisa's serial number and some random numbers and put up a display saying to call a phone number and get an activation key.? This key would then allow you to install a boot block and boot loader on a hard drive.? However this process has been, um, reversed in the past and can be done so again, so it's not something to worry about. If the manual mentions installing on a screen modified Lisa XL or 2/10 (i.e. ROM version 3A), that would be very unique, and certainly the VPI label makes it unique. I'd love to scan in whatever manuals you have and make them available for bitsavers as well as try to recover whatever bits are on that disk.? Pls contact me offlist if you're willing to loan me this for a few days. On 06/13/18 08:33, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > I have a diskette labeled > > UNIX SYSTEM V > VPI UNIX > disk 'A' > (vpi)* 8/85 > > UniPress Software, Inc. > > I have the small installation manual that talks about inserting the disk to > serialize it, and how to install UNIX onto the Lisa 2/10 in Mac XL Mode. > It is a small implementation of AT&T UNIX V. > > The disk is bad. Anyone have a process for recovering or reading an Apple > Mac XL disk? This seems like a piece of software that should be preserved, > as a curiosity. Does anyone actually have a working copy of UniPress > Software UNIX for the Lisa XL? > > Bill > From sales at elecplus.com Thu Jun 14 13:18:43 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 13:18:43 -0500 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff Message-ID: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> This guy is an eBay seller. I think he is a recycler. He has over 185,000 DEC items listed! Not affiliated with seller, etc. https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html? &_nkw=DEC&_sacat=0 Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 14:21:32 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 21:21:32 +0200 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> References: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> Message-ID: you can put this information on my website http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ 2018-06-14 20:18 GMT+02:00 Electronics Plus via cctalk : > This guy is an eBay seller. I think he is a recycler. He has over 185,000 > DEC items listed! Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html? > &_nkw=DEC&_sacat=0 > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From jacob at dahl-pind.dk Thu Jun 14 15:26:00 2018 From: jacob at dahl-pind.dk (jacob at dahl-pind.dk) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 22:26:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Assessing Plastibands for QIC Tension Band Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 4 Jun 2018, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > If anyone is interested, I just published a few videos showing my testing > of PlastiBands for QIC Tape Cartridge replacement. > > https://youtu.be/irOrR-ZYwjw > > and > > https://youtu.be/GVsYHLvCvZY > > A special thank you to CuriousMarc, Al Kossow, and Chuck(G) for their help, > leadership and inspiration in this area! > > And my page dedicated to QIC Tension Bands... > > http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/drive-belts.html > > As always, I welcome feedback, and hope this is of value to some here. Have just been through 25 qic tapes of amiga bbs backups , after 23 years of being stored in a attic, the majority of tapes was in good order, only 3 had bad tension band. A single 3M had lost all tension,causing slipping, and had gotten tangled up, turned out to the the hardest of the lot to read, after replacing the band and untangling it. Your site was really helpful, had my doubt but your videos showed it wasnt that hard after all to replace and untangle those tapes. Restored 1.7gb data, mix of diavolo backup and amiback2 from two differnt amiga bbs . -- Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Jun 14 21:45:59 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 02:45:59 +0000 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? Message-ID: Hi friends, I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I need a special 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located the adapter to get to DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) but I need the interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? Anyone have one for sale? 73 Eugene W2HX From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jun 14 22:14:26 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Jun 2018 23:14:26 -0400 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/comp.os.vms/zkKDPaAi-PQ http://www.varx.com/CAT/CABLES_ADAPTERS.HTML https://www.stonewallcable.com/ On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 10:50 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi friends, > > I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I need a > special 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located the adapter > to get to DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) but I need the > interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? Anyone have one for > sale? > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 03:03:18 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 09:03:18 +0100 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <018701d4047f$52df7180$f89e5480$@gmail.com> Eugene, Its called an MMJ cable, Modified Modular Jack. The price from the Stonewall link in Bills mail seems typical commercial. Pretty some one in the USA was making these for less. I have the bits to make some in the UK but shipping gets expensive. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of W2HX via cctalk > Sent: 15 June 2018 03:46 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? > > Hi friends, > > I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I need a special > 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located the adapter to get to > DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) but I need the > interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? Anyone have one for > sale? > > 73 Eugene W2HX > From jonathan at pueblo.co.uk Fri Jun 15 04:35:40 2018 From: jonathan at pueblo.co.uk (Jonathan Casiot) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 10:35:40 +0100 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 15/06/2018 03:45, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Hi friends, > > I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I need a special 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located the adapter to get to DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) but I need the interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? Anyone have one for sale? > > 73 Eugene W2HX > > RS Components in the UK have a 3m male MMJ to male MMJ cable for a reasonable price: https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/telecom-cable-assemblies/0446670/ -- Jonathan From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jun 15 09:30:43 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:30:43 -0600 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: In a pinch, you can use a normal modular jack (RJ45 I think) with the retaining tab cut off. All MMJ does is move that tab. The idea, back in the day, was that you wouldn't want to confuse phone and serial cables. Sounds sane, but the MMJs were hard to get a hold of and a real pita in practice. Warner On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Casiot via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 15/06/2018 03:45, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi friends, >> >> I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I need a >> special 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located the adapter >> to get to DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) but I need the >> interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? Anyone have one for >> sale? >> >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> >> >> > RS Components in the UK have a 3m male MMJ to male MMJ cable for a > reasonable price: > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/telecom-cable-assemblies/0446670/ > > -- > Jonathan > From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 15 10:03:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 11:03:46 -0400 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> References: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> Message-ID: <16403f94a65-c8c-1ac33@webjas-vad151.srv.aolmail.net> quite a selection...? ?We have? ?a? couple? ?extra? declabs like? he? has listed? ?at his? url of https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Digital-DEC-H-500-Computer-Lab-1960s-Same-Switches-as-PDP-8-I-Vintage/132629011390?hash=item1ee14e1bbe:g:a~8AAOSwSXFa2KWo ? we were fortunate to? find a? group of them... will? keep? several? but at? some? point? trade offf? 2? of them. ? Ed#? www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 6/14/2018 11:19:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? This guy is an eBay seller. I think he is a recycler. He has over 185,000 DEC items listed! Not affiliated with seller, etc. https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html? &_nkw=DEC&_sacat=0 Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jun 15 10:28:25 2018 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 08:28:25 -0700 Subject: LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: On 06/02/2018 11:08, Robert Armstrong via cctalk wrote: > > I've heard a persistent rumor over the years that the WPS/8 and PDP-8 software group at DEC had modified the 730's microcode to support a PDP-8 emulation [...] I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but if we're sharing faintly remembered rumors -- I recall hearing that some grad students had developed alternate microcode for the 11/730 to re-purpose it as a LISP machine. I use the lowercase "M" on purpose, I don't recall that it emulated the various 36-bit machines known as LISP Machines specifically. Just that it was a native LISP execution environment of some kind. That's all I've got. Not even an institution, though I have a very tenuous notion that UMass Amherst might have been mentioned... --S. From classiccmp at crash.com Fri Jun 15 11:29:11 2018 From: classiccmp at crash.com (Steven M Jones) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 09:29:11 -0700 Subject: LISP microcode for an 11/730? Was Re: Modifying microcode In-Reply-To: References: <84ECB314-E1AD-47A0-A9CB-23DDF6CDDF9C@vmssoftware.com> <2E55E860-8508-4465-94BB-7FF90AF1D7FC@vmssoftware.com> <657F9C0F-7D8D-480A-BFEC-595B08158ECE@comcast.net> <5B0F5D41.2040205@pico-systems.com> <002d01d3f9cb$1c08ea60$541abf20$@com> <001e01d3fa9c$c6b7e8e0$5427baa0$@com> Message-ID: <57a2aa83-a3d7-ee45-bd12-23a183d2042a@crash.com> On 06/15/2018 08:28, Steven M Jones via cctalk wrote: > > I wasn't able to find a reference to back it up, but ... Sorry for the delay - that was stuck in my Outbox over a two week business trip... From sieler at allegro.com Fri Jun 15 12:30:42 2018 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 10:30:42 -0700 Subject: HP 7980 tape drives Message-ID: Hi, Anyone interested in three HP 7980 tape drives (9-track, 1600/6250 BPI, IIRC). One HP-IB interface, two SCSI interfaces. Rack mountable. Most likely local pickup only, in Redwood City. thanks, Stan From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 15 12:33:41 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 13:33:41 -0400 Subject: HP 7980 tape drives In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1640482894f-c8c-134aa@webjas-vad241.srv.aolmail.net> can use the hpib but some one would have to be on way to grand canyon and drop off...... Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, June 15, 2018 Stan Sieler via cctalk wrote: Hi, Anyone interested in three HP 7980 tape drives (9-track, 1600/6250 BPI, IIRC). One HP-IB interface, two SCSI interfaces. Rack mountable. Most likely local pickup only, in Redwood City. thanks, Stan From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 04:48:57 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 02:48:57 -0700 Subject: New Listings Added to Sellam's Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders Message-ID: New items added for June 15, 2018: Panasonic FT-70 Executive Partner Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Mini Disk Atari 850 Interface Module Atari 1010 Program Recorder Rana Systems 1000 Floppy Disk Drive Axiom ParallAx CD Printer Interface Apricorn external parallel port interface Personal System/2 and Personal Computer BIOS Interface Technical Reference NETBIOS Application Development Guide IBM Technical Directory Cromemco Z2D Computer System Hayes Micromodem 100 DEC RX50AA IBM Type 4869 External 5.25" Disk Drive Byte-Back MD-1 Modem Kit Radio Shack TRS-80 Modem I Tandy Serial Mouse (boxed) Connecticut microComputer Inc. ADA 1450 PET Printer Interface Control Data Disk Drive Tester/Formatter Cromemco Z2D case/power supply/backplane COMPAL-80 case/power supply/backplane List with links to individual items is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 Instructions, FAQs, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for any questions. Thanks! Sellam From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 14:15:39 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:15:39 -0400 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <16403f94a65-c8c-1ac33@webjas-vad151.srv.aolmail.net> References: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> <16403f94a65-c8c-1ac33@webjas-vad151.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 11:03 AM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > quite a selection... We have a couple extra declabs like he has listed at his url of > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Digital-DEC-H-500-Computer-Lab-1960s-Same-Switches-as-PDP-8-I-Vintage/132629011390?hash=item1ee14e1bbe:g:a~8AAOSwSXFa2KWo I have one but have never found a source of patch cables/bare pins. -ethan From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 15:39:25 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 22:39:25 +0200 Subject: 68020 adapter Message-ID: hi guys I need something like this (1) anyone know where can I get one? (1) https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/64748-90901.pdf From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Jun 15 17:01:09 2018 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:01:09 -0500 Subject: HP 7980 tape drives In-Reply-To: <1640482894f-c8c-134aa@webjas-vad241.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1640482894f-c8c-134aa@webjas-vad241.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <005701d404f4$5e2dacd0$1a890670$@classiccmp.org> Ed wrote... -------------- can use the hpib but some one would have to be on way to grand canyon and drop off...... --------------- You aware that your HP TSB systems wont speak HPIB? J From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Fri Jun 15 17:25:58 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 15:25:58 -0700 Subject: 68020 adapter In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jun 15, 2018, at 1:39 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > hi guys > I need something like this (1) > anyone know where can I get one? > > (1) https://literature.cdn.keysight.com/litweb/pdf/64748-90901.pdf You could probably put one together in KiCad and have boards made by Oshpark easily, then it?d just be a matter of mounting the sockets. -- Chris From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 15 18:23:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 19:23:46 -0400 Subject: HP 7980 tape drives In-Reply-To: <005701d404f4$5e2dacd0$1a890670$@classiccmp.org> References: <005701d404f4$5e2dacd0$1a890670$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <16405c30616-c8b-1d410@webjas-vaa142.srv.aolmail.net> will work on our 3000 37 museum has yes, we need a real reel tape drive ed sharpe archivist for smecc. www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, June 15, 2018 Jay West wrote: Ed wrote... -------------- can use the hpib but some one would have to be on way to grand canyon and drop off...... --------------- You aware that your HP TSB systems wont speak HPIB? J From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 15 18:27:56 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 19:27:56 -0400 Subject: HP 7980 tape drives In-Reply-To: <16405c30616-c8b-1d410@webjas-vaa142.srv.aolmail.net> References: <16405c30616-c8b-1d410@webjas-vaa142.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <16405c6dd4b-c8a-ec8f@webjas-vab142.srv.aolmail.net> Need badly!!!!!! will work on our 3000 37 museum has yes, we need a real reel tape drive. we have a xl me machine of some sort stored and world wok on that too.... ed sharpe archivist for smecc. www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, June 15, 2018 Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: will work on our 3000 37 museum has yes, we need a real reel tape drive ed sharpe archivist for smecc. www.smecc.org Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, June 15, 2018 Jay West wrote: Ed wrote... -------------- can use the hpib but some one would have to be on way to grand canyon and drop off...... --------------- You aware that your HP TSB systems wont speak HPIB? J From w2hx at w2hx.com Fri Jun 15 18:53:53 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 23:53:53 +0000 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A hearty thank you to Bill D. Dave W., Jonathan C and Warner! Everything you ever wanted to know about MMJ (and then some)! Gracias! 73 Eugene W2HX -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Warner Losh via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 15, 2018 10:31 AM To: Jonathan Casiot; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In a pinch, you can use a normal modular jack (RJ45 I think) with the retaining tab cut off. All MMJ does is move that tab. The idea, back in the day, was that you wouldn't want to confuse phone and serial cables. Sounds sane, but the MMJs were hard to get a hold of and a real pita in practice. Warner On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 3:35 AM, Jonathan Casiot via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 15/06/2018 03:45, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > >> Hi friends, >> >> I just received a refurb'd VT-420 with green screen. I see that I >> need a special 6 pin/modular-type cable for the comm port. I located >> the adapter to get to DB25 ( https://www.ebay.com/itm/262041938994 ) >> but I need the interconnecting cable. Anyone know what it is called? >> Anyone have one for sale? >> >> 73 Eugene W2HX >> >> >> > RS Components in the UK have a 3m male MMJ to male MMJ cable for a > reasonable price: > > https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/telecom-cable-assemblies/0446670/ > > -- > Jonathan > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 20:11:58 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 21:11:58 -0400 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a 7-part lecture series titled "The DEC MMJ Cable and You" I often present on luxury cruise ships if you're interested. Bill On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 7:57 PM W2HX via cctalk wrote: > A hearty thank you to Bill D. Dave W., Jonathan C and Warner! Everything > you ever wanted to know about MMJ (and then some)! Gracias! > > > > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jun 16 11:53:21 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 10:53:21 -0600 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: References: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> <16403f94a65-c8c-1ac33@webjas-vad151.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 1:15 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have one but have never found a source of patch cables/bare pins. > IIRC, mini-banana (2.6mm) plugs and patch cables are suitable. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 16 13:31:32 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 16 Jun 2018 14:31:32 -0400 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <16409dddf2e-c91-1f81b@webjas-vad039.srv.aolmail.net> This is great? to know? as? we have? extra? ?DEC labs but? no? cables We like? collecting the? ?trainers? like this? have some? by fabritek ( the core? company) and others. There are? some? duplicates by other mfrs.? also.? ? Ed#? www.smecc.org ? In a message dated 6/16/2018 9:53:31 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 1:15 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have one but have never found a source of patch cables/bare pins. > IIRC, mini-banana (2.6mm) plugs and patch cables are suitable. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 15 16:19:01 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Jun 2018 17:19:01 -0400 Subject: New Listings Added to Sellam's Virtual Warehouse of Computing Wonders In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Does the cmc ada 1450 per interface come with the cassette? I have a number of the earlier cassettes but not the 1450 On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 3:04 PM Sellam Ismail via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > New items added for June 15, 2018: > > Panasonic FT-70 Executive Partner > > Radio Shack TRS-80 Color Computer Mini Disk > > Atari 850 Interface Module > > Atari 1010 Program Recorder > > Rana Systems 1000 Floppy Disk Drive > > Axiom ParallAx CD Printer Interface > > Apricorn external parallel port interface > > Personal System/2 and Personal Computer BIOS Interface Technical Reference > > NETBIOS Application Development Guide > > IBM Technical Directory > > Cromemco Z2D Computer System > > Hayes Micromodem 100 > > DEC RX50AA > > IBM Type 4869 External 5.25" Disk Drive > > Byte-Back MD-1 Modem Kit > > Radio Shack TRS-80 Modem I > > Tandy Serial Mouse (boxed) > > Connecticut microComputer Inc. ADA 1450 PET Printer Interface > > Control Data Disk Drive Tester/Formatter > > Cromemco Z2D case/power supply/backplane > > COMPAL-80 case/power supply/backplane > > > List with links to individual items is here: > > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > Instructions, FAQs, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for > any questions. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From robert626001 at gmail.com Sun Jun 17 08:33:11 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 08:33:11 -0500 Subject: Lots of old DEC stuff In-Reply-To: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> References: <020f01d4040c$2131d6a0$639583e0$@com> Message-ID: When I click on the link I don't get taken to any particular ebay seller. Rather, I get a general ebay search for "DEC", from all sellers. The results include both items that are relevant to vintage computing and items that are completely unrelated to it. Robert On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 1:18 PM, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > This guy is an eBay seller. I think he is a recycler. He has over 185,000 > DEC items listed! Not affiliated with seller, etc. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/sch/m.html? > &_nkw=DEC&_sacat=0 > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jun 17 14:30:25 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 17 Jun 2018 15:30:25 -0400 Subject: Did anyone on the list get these tapes? In-Reply-To: References: <74afad8d-f522-a0ab-9c61-da7460b582c9@bitsavers.org> <96eb04ab-f399-e60c-7349-cfedd4325c14@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <479D277D-27B3-4571-8C63-5A6C7BCB1CD8@comcast.net> > > On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 1:57 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> http://bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/dectape/LCM_Early_PDP-11 I looked over these, more precisely the ones that related to the PDP11. Here are some notes. The most significant item from my point of view is that it contains much of a very early RSTS (so early that it was still called BTSS). Together with a scanned listing I have of the BTSS kernel it may amount to just about a complete system. I need to get that scan run through OCR... paul 118647.tu56: palx11.mac: PDP11 cross-assembler. This was used to build PDP11 software early on, such as RSTS-11. 118652.tu56: iox.p11: appears to be sources for the IOX "paper tape I/O" package, described as "experimental I/O system". That wasn't what it was called when it finally shipped, I believe. odtx.p11: ODT debugger for IOX. rts.p11: Early Basic-PLUS for RSTS (referred to as "BTSS" in the comments). rtsdoc.rno: Brief documentation for some of the operation codes in rts.p11. sim11x.sav: I wonder if this might be the famous "Mimic". Someone with a suitable PDP-10 system should try to find out. syslod.p11: tool to create a bootable DECtape. Later on, "syslod" was the name of the OS loader program, the one booted from DECtape to load the OS (at least in the case of DOS). 118653.tu56: oo.p11: RSTS file processor components. It's not entirely clear but I believe these are functions that were implemented as overlays. Not everything is precisely file I/O related; as in RSTS-11 V4, the Basic-PLUS string garbage collector is implemented as a "file processor" overlay. rts.p11: Basic-PLUS, similar to the one in 118652.tu56 but appears to be slightly newer. 118654.tu56: dos.spp: design spec for DOS-11 V3. edit11.man: user manual for DOS-11 EDIT program. fort.spc: design spec for DOS-11 FORTRAN. l.spc: design spec for DOS-11 LINK. 118656.tu56: basic.p11: Multi-user BASIC (this is not Basic-PLUS) syslod.p11: Another copy of the OS loader, essentially the same as the one on 118652.tu56 but with a few comments cleaned up. 118660.tu56: p.001 through p.011: software floating point library, appears to be THREE word format (two word mantissa, one word exponent). I believe this was used in RSTS through version 3; in V4A, RSTS-11 switched to the hardware standard 2-word or 4-word floating point format. test.001 through test.009: appear to be test programs for the above. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jun 18 11:50:09 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 09:50:09 -0700 Subject: DECServer 200/DL board? Message-ID: Is this a 200/DL (RS423 data lines only) board? https://www.ebay.com/itm/352381870034 A normal 200 would have two large IDC connectors on the pcb for serial I/O From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Jun 18 12:00:49 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 18:00:49 +0100 Subject: DECServer 200/DL board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 18/06/18 17:50, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Is this a 200/DL (RS423 data lines only) board? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352381870034 > > A normal 200 would have two large IDC connectors on the pcb for serial I/O > > > The DECserver 200/MC had 8 DB25 connectors on the back, one for each RS232 connection. These connections had full modem control. The DECserver 200/DL had one 36-pin connector that broke out to 8 MMJ connections. Only the data leads were present (no modem control). I don't know how the motherboards differed between the two models. I wouldn't be surprised if the MC variant had 8 connections to the motherboard. I'm surprised the 200/DL didn't just put 8 MMJ connectors on the back of the box ... would have saved space and been less of a hassle thirty years later for people trying to run them! I don't have any service information (that I know of) for the DS200 unfortunately. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jun 18 12:03:46 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 13:03:46 -0400 Subject: DECServer 200/DL board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <24DFB5B8-EE79-4EB7-B0B0-FE6F5E6B69F3@comcast.net> I wonder if that's a DECserver-100 board. I remember seeing a box (I thought it was a prototype but I may be confused) with a fairly small PCB inside a much larger rackmount-sized enclosure, with 8 separate wire bundles going from connectors on the board to the MMJ jacks on the front panel. The history supposedly was that the original design used a box the size of the board, with those connectors either exposed on the front or brought out to standard front panel connectors. Ken Olsen decreed that the connectors weren't acceptable and introduced MMJ, requiring the box to be redone but the PCB was kept. Or so I was told anyway. paul > On Jun 18, 2018, at 12:50 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > Is this a 200/DL (RS423 data lines only) board? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352381870034 > > A normal 200 would have two large IDC connectors on the pcb for serial I/O > > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jun 18 12:08:00 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 17:08:00 +0000 Subject: DECServer 200/DL board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 06/18/2018 01:00 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > On 18/06/18 17:50, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Is this a 200/DL (RS423 data lines only) board? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352381870034 >> >> A normal 200 would have two large IDC connectors on the pcb for >> serial I/O >> >> >> > The DECserver 200/MC had 8 DB25 connectors on the back, one for each > RS232 connection. These connections had full modem control. > > The DECserver 200/DL had one 36-pin connector that broke out to 8 MMJ > connections. Only the data leads were present (no modem control). > > I don't know how the motherboards differed between the two models. I > wouldn't be surprised if the MC variant had 8 connections to the > motherboard. > > > I'm surprised the 200/DL didn't just put 8 MMJ connectors on the back > of the box ... would have saved space and been less of a hassle thirty > years later for people trying to run them! > > > I don't have any service information (that I know of) for the DS200 > unfortunately. > If no one can properly answer this question and it would help I have a bunch of 200/MC boxes sitting here and could one up to get a picture of the motherboard. bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 15:44:12 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 16:44:12 -0400 Subject: Assessing Plastibands for QIC Tension Band Replacement In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'd seen your posts earlier, as luck would have it I've also been going through some QIC tapes lately. I've been working with a US-based custom rubber products manufacturer on finding replacement drive bands. Nothing to report back yet, first round of samples felt like the right material but were the wrong size (my goof, I think). Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jun 14, 2018 at 4:26 PM, jacob--- via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 4 Jun 2018, AJ Palmgren via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone is interested, I just published a few videos showing my testing >> of PlastiBands for QIC Tape Cartridge replacement. >> >> https://youtu.be/irOrR-ZYwjw >> >> and >> >> https://youtu.be/GVsYHLvCvZY >> >> A special thank you to CuriousMarc, Al Kossow, and Chuck(G) for their >> help, >> leadership and inspiration in this area! >> > > >> And my page dedicated to QIC Tension Bands... >> >> http://qicreader.blogspot.com/p/drive-belts.html >> >> As always, I welcome feedback, and hope this is of value to some here. >> > > Have just been through 25 qic tapes of amiga bbs backups , after 23 years > of being stored in a attic, the majority of tapes was in good order, only 3 > had bad tension band. > A single 3M had lost all tension,causing slipping, and had gotten tangled > up, turned out to the the hardest of the lot to read, after replacing > the band and untangling it. > > Your site was really helpful, had my doubt but your videos showed it wasnt > that hard after all to replace and untangle those tapes. > > Restored 1.7gb data, mix of diavolo backup and amiback2 from two differnt > amiga bbs . > > > -- > Jacob Dahl Pind | telefisk.org | fidonet 2:230/38.8 > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 15:46:29 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 16:46:29 -0400 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got 1000 feet of DEC OfficeConnect flat cable, a bunch of MMJ ends, and the crimp dies for them, if anyone finds themselves in need of cable. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:11 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have a 7-part lecture series titled "The DEC MMJ Cable and You" I often > present on luxury cruise ships if you're interested. > Bill > > > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 7:57 PM W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > A hearty thank you to Bill D. Dave W., Jonathan C and Warner! Everything > > you ever wanted to know about MMJ (and then some)! Gracias! > > > > > > > > > > > > > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 15:51:27 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 21:51:27 +0100 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <876B9D0E-FAD3-4582-83F7-8B04C680104F@gmail.com> > On 18 Jun 2018, at 21:46, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > I've got 1000 feet of DEC OfficeConnect flat cable, a bunch of MMJ ends, > and the crimp dies for them, if anyone finds themselves in need of cable. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > Ditto, but I?m in the UK. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:11 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I have a 7-part lecture series titled "The DEC MMJ Cable and You" I often >> present on luxury cruise ships if you're interested. >> Bill >> >> >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 7:57 PM W2HX via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> A hearty thank you to Bill D. Dave W., Jonathan C and Warner! Everything >>> you ever wanted to know about MMJ (and then some)! Gracias! >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 16:05:14 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 22:05:14 +0100 Subject: DEC VT 420 comm cable? In-Reply-To: <876B9D0E-FAD3-4582-83F7-8B04C680104F@gmail.com> References: <876B9D0E-FAD3-4582-83F7-8B04C680104F@gmail.com> Message-ID: <036701d40748$0e965540$2bc2ffc0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Adrian Graham > via cctalk > Sent: 18 June 2018 21:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: DEC VT 420 comm cable? > > > > On 18 Jun 2018, at 21:46, systems_glitch via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I've got 1000 feet of DEC OfficeConnect flat cable, a bunch of MMJ > > ends, and the crimp dies for them, if anyone finds themselves in need of > cable. > > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > > > Ditto, but I?m in the UK. > I only have 999ft of cable. Have I been short changed.... Also I am in Spain but the cable, ends and crimps are in the UK. Dave > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > On Fri, Jun 15, 2018 at 9:11 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> I have a 7-part lecture series titled "The DEC MMJ Cable and You" I often > >> present on luxury cruise ships if you're interested. > >> Bill > >> > >> > >> On Fri, Jun 15, 2018, 7:57 PM W2HX via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >>> A hearty thank you to Bill D. Dave W., Jonathan C and Warner! > Everything > >>> you ever wanted to know about MMJ (and then some)! Gracias! > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jun 18 16:16:18 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 18 Jun 2018 14:16:18 -0700 Subject: DECServer 200/DL board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: See also here for some better photos of a 5015575-01 board with the DB25 connectors attached: http://forum.maxiol.com/index.php?showtopic=5196 A DECserver 100 might be the best guess. On Mon, Jun 18, 2018, 9:49 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Is this a 200/DL (RS423 data lines only) board? > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352381870034 > > A normal 200 would have two large IDC connectors on the pcb for serial I/O > > > From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 07:53:03 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 07:53:03 -0500 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series Message-ID: I was successfull at capturing all the files from a 4051 Graphics T1 tape last weekend. Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 cartridge. I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and upgraded 4054A. I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control character. This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the transfer. I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very problematic after all these years. This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any of the series :) I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each program to use the flash drive GPIB address. That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. Monty McGraw From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jun 20 09:21:24 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:21:24 -0500 Subject: Website Relocation Message-ID: FYI, the service under which I have been hosting my website for many, many years is going away. So, webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection Has been relocated to www.computercollection.net (The content is unchanged for now). This will also give me the freedom to eventually post lots more (and muc better) photos, put up my manual database and other databases at some point, and all sorts of cool things over time, but at present I am focused on my capture of the IBM 1410 Automated Logic Diagrams (ALDs). (BTW, the capture application (C#) is written, though still being debugged/improved, and I have already captured one volume of drawings, and am testing VHDL generation from the captured information.) JRJ From cube1 at charter.net Wed Jun 20 09:21:24 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 09:21:24 -0500 Subject: Website Relocation Message-ID: FYI, the service under which I have been hosting my website for many, many years is going away. So, webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection Has been relocated to www.computercollection.net (The content is unchanged for now). This will also give me the freedom to eventually post lots more (and muc better) photos, put up my manual database and other databases at some point, and all sorts of cool things over time, but at present I am focused on my capture of the IBM 1410 Automated Logic Diagrams (ALDs). (BTW, the capture application (C#) is written, though still being debugged/improved, and I have already captured one volume of drawings, and am testing VHDL generation from the captured information.) JRJ From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Jun 20 11:31:40 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Wed, 20 Jun 2018 18:31:40 +0200 Subject: Tektronix terminals, Tekxpress v8? Message-ID: hi I have a Tek XP400, and a Tek XP217. They are X11-terminals made in 1990s (thus unable to support GTK-v2) anyway, the XP217 runs with TekXpress v7, I have a copy for my tftp-boot server and the terminal is happy with it; whereas the XP400 says it needs a more recent software. does anyone happen to have TekXpress v8, or NCD bridge v4? let me know Thanks From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 02:24:39 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 00:24:39 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 Message-ID: Hello Folks, More stuff! New listings for June 20, 2018 Beck-Tech C64 ROM Emulator 80486 Multi-Master Card H214 8Kx16 Planar Core Memory M7504 DEQNA Ethernet Controller VS40X 4 Plane Color Option Bit Boffer BB-1 Ricoh V20 MMI Development PCB EXT 01 slot extender board Diablo Systems RGEXT slot extender board Mystery Memory Board Lexar 48K Memory Expansion Board National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board National Semiconductor 8080 Processor Board Set Quantum Q2030 hard drive logic board Anderson Jacobson ADAC 1200 Acoustically Coupled Modem IEV Corp. VIP-2000 InfoChip Systems 13-000025 Compression Coprocessor Board International TeleText Communications PC TeleText Decoder Generic Network Card Gould K-20 Logic Analyzer Tektronix C-5A Oscilloscope Camera List with links to individual items is here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 (Please note: the links get screwy as I add/delete items because they are not anchored to the actual item but to the cell range, still trying to work on a fix for this. If you link to an item and it's just not there it means it has sold.) Instructions, FAQ, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for any questions. Thanks! Sellam From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 06:27:56 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 13:27:56 +0200 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: hi you may consider selling this stuff here: http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ free participation! 2018-06-21 9:24 GMT+02:00 Sellam Ismail via cctalk : > Hello Folks, > > More stuff! > > New listings for June 20, 2018 > > Beck-Tech C64 ROM Emulator > 80486 Multi-Master Card > H214 8Kx16 Planar Core Memory > M7504 DEQNA Ethernet Controller > VS40X 4 Plane Color Option > Bit Boffer BB-1 > Ricoh V20 MMI Development PCB > EXT 01 slot extender board > Diablo Systems RGEXT slot extender board > Mystery Memory Board > Lexar 48K Memory Expansion Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor 8080 Processor Board Set > Quantum Q2030 hard drive logic board > Anderson Jacobson ADAC 1200 Acoustically Coupled Modem > IEV Corp. VIP-2000 > InfoChip Systems 13-000025 Compression Coprocessor Board > International TeleText Communications PC TeleText Decoder > Generic Network Card > Gould K-20 Logic Analyzer > Tektronix C-5A Oscilloscope Camera > > List with links to individual items is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > (Please note: the links get screwy as I add/delete items because they are > not anchored to the actual item but to the cell range, still trying to work > on a fix for this. If you link to an item and it's just not there it means > it has sold.) > > Instructions, FAQ, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for > any questions. > > Thanks! > > Sellam From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 07:04:37 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 08:04:37 -0400 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001301d40958$0732d190$159874b0$@gmail.com> Seems like we've got ourselves "attached" on a tele-marketing auto-responder ... annoying. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:28 AM To: Sellam Ismail; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 hi you may consider selling this stuff here: http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ free participation! 2018-06-21 9:24 GMT+02:00 Sellam Ismail via cctalk : > Hello Folks, > > More stuff! > > New listings for June 20, 2018 > > Beck-Tech C64 ROM Emulator > 80486 Multi-Master Card > H214 8Kx16 Planar Core Memory > M7504 DEQNA Ethernet Controller > VS40X 4 Plane Color Option > Bit Boffer BB-1 > Ricoh V20 MMI Development PCB > EXT 01 slot extender board > Diablo Systems RGEXT slot extender board > Mystery Memory Board > Lexar 48K Memory Expansion Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor 8080 Processor Board Set > Quantum Q2030 hard drive logic board > Anderson Jacobson ADAC 1200 Acoustically Coupled Modem > IEV Corp. VIP-2000 > InfoChip Systems 13-000025 Compression Coprocessor Board > International TeleText Communications PC TeleText Decoder > Generic Network Card > Gould K-20 Logic Analyzer > Tektronix C-5A Oscilloscope Camera > > List with links to individual items is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > (Please note: the links get screwy as I add/delete items because they are > not anchored to the actual item but to the cell range, still trying to work > on a fix for this. If you link to an item and it's just not there it means > it has sold.) > > Instructions, FAQ, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for > any questions. > > Thanks! > > Sellam From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 07:39:50 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 07:39:50 -0500 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series Message-ID: I was successfull at capturing all the files from a Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape last weekend. Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 cartridge. I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and upgraded 4054A. I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control character. This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the transfer. I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very problematic after all these years. This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any of the series :) I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each program to use the flash drive GPIB address. That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. Monty McGraw From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 08:36:31 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 15:36:31 +0200 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 In-Reply-To: <001301d40958$0732d190$159874b0$@gmail.com> References: <001301d40958$0732d190$159874b0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: why don't you give a clear answer instead? nobody says a line, and I don't know IF the site works/doesn't work, has a defect, or what yes, it's annoying! 2018-06-21 14:04 GMT+02:00 Paul Birkel via cctalk : > Seems like we've got ourselves "attached" on a tele-marketing auto-responder ... annoying. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Carlo Pisani via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 7:28 AM > To: Sellam Ismail; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 > > hi > you may consider selling this stuff here: > http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ > free participation! > > 2018-06-21 9:24 GMT+02:00 Sellam Ismail via cctalk : >> Hello Folks, >> >> More stuff! >> >> New listings for June 20, 2018 >> >> Beck-Tech C64 ROM Emulator >> 80486 Multi-Master Card >> H214 8Kx16 Planar Core Memory >> M7504 DEQNA Ethernet Controller >> VS40X 4 Plane Color Option >> Bit Boffer BB-1 >> Ricoh V20 MMI Development PCB >> EXT 01 slot extender board >> Diablo Systems RGEXT slot extender board >> Mystery Memory Board >> Lexar 48K Memory Expansion Board >> National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board >> National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board >> National Semiconductor 8080 Processor Board Set >> Quantum Q2030 hard drive logic board >> Anderson Jacobson ADAC 1200 Acoustically Coupled Modem >> IEV Corp. VIP-2000 >> InfoChip Systems 13-000025 Compression Coprocessor Board >> International TeleText Communications PC TeleText Decoder >> Generic Network Card >> Gould K-20 Logic Analyzer >> Tektronix C-5A Oscilloscope Camera >> >> List with links to individual items is here: >> >> https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 >> >> (Please note: the links get screwy as I add/delete items because they are >> not anchored to the actual item but to the cell range, still trying to work >> on a fix for this. If you link to an item and it's just not there it means >> it has sold.) >> >> Instructions, FAQ, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for >> any questions. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Sellam > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 12:48:39 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 17:48:39 +0000 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Wow, good job Marty. Now there are three of us. Brad Sebrink has a 4051, and also written an emulator. The Tek guys in Beaverton have another, VintageTek. I will contact one of the guys there, he may have a RAMPACK and MAXIPACK for you, his software speeds up the graphics incredibly, and give you a non-volatile EEPROM program store. He has put all of the collected programs we have so far on there, mostly games. I have to cut into my 4051, it quit a few weeks back, I think it is just a supply problem. I can run a simple basic loop, but what it draws on the screen is garbled, on of the analog supplies is messed up screwing up the vector drawing, but the computer itself is running. I did the elastiband transfer when I first got the machine, from NOS tapes to the one that was in the machine. Tricky, but I got it working, and WEATHERWAR off of it and a few others, biorhythm, etc. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Monty McGraw via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 5:39 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series I was successfull at capturing all the files from a Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape last weekend. Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 cartridge. I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and upgraded 4054A. I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control character. This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the transfer. I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very problematic after all these years. This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any of the series :) I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each program to use the flash drive GPIB address. That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. Monty McGraw From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Jun 21 13:06:13 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 11:06:13 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: a few months ago i had about 20 4051/4052 tapes. if i still do i can send them to you On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 5:53 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was successfull at capturing all the files from a 4051 Graphics T1 tape > last weekend. > > Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: > > Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop > > > First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 > cartridge. > > I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and > upgraded 4054A. > > I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, > but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters > to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control > character. > > This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the > transfer. > > I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, > then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. > > I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash > drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with > these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very > problematic after all these years. > > This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB > flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. > > You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for > the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any > of the series :) > > I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash > - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that > command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each > program to use the flash drive GPIB address. > > That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is > to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. > > Monty McGraw > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Thu Jun 21 21:54:14 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 02:54:14 +0000 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Pete, Send them to Monty - my 4051 is crippled with no serial port. I currently have no way to get data in and out of this, except via Micheal's RAMSTORE modules. Monty, I also looked at emulating the tape drive, or the floppy disk over GPIB, that would be great, have the PC with a NI USB dongle. I could not figure out how to make the National Instruments dongle act like a slave, its normally the master. Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:06 AM To: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com; General Subject: Re: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series a few months ago i had about 20 4051/4052 tapes. if i still do i can send them to you On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 5:53 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was successfull at capturing all the files from a 4051 Graphics T1 tape > last weekend. > > Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: > > Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop > > > First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 > cartridge. > > I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and > upgraded 4054A. > > I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, > but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters > to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control > character. > > This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the > transfer. > > I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, > then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. > > I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash > drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with > these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very > problematic after all these years. > > This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB > flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. > > You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for > the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any > of the series :) > > I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash > - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that > command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each > program to use the flash drive GPIB address. > > That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is > to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. > > Monty McGraw > > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jun 21 22:12:44 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:12:44 -0700 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series -SERIAL PORT In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0affcd75-ec8e-54f0-f468-c6fd393f8441@sbcglobal.net> I used an GPIB to serial converter to get serial data out of my 4052. This allowed me to get 8 bit serial data, not just the seven the Tektronix serial port allowed for. I used it to drive a paper tape punch/reader, just for fun. There are some on ebay. Also, an USB to GPIB converter should work. Might help with transferring tapes. Bob On 6/21/2018 7:54 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Hi Pete, > > > Send them to Monty - my 4051 is crippled with no serial port. I currently have no way to get data in and out of this, except via Micheal's RAMSTORE modules. > > > Monty, I also looked at emulating the tape drive, or the floppy disk over GPIB, that would be great, have the PC with a NI USB dongle. > > I could not figure out how to make the National Instruments dongle act like a slave, its normally the master. > > > Randy > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:06 AM > To: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com; General > Subject: Re: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series > > a few months ago i had about 20 4051/4052 tapes. if i still do i can send > them to you > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 5:53 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I was successfull at capturing all the files from a 4051 Graphics T1 tape >> last weekend. >> >> Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: >> >> Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop >> >> >> First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M DC6250 >> cartridge. >> >> I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and >> upgraded 4054A. >> >> I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 baud, >> but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control characters >> to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control >> character. >> >> This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the >> transfer. >> >> I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, >> then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. >> >> I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash >> drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us with >> these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very >> problematic after all these years. >> >> This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB >> flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. >> >> You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for >> the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for any >> of the series :) >> >> I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the flash >> - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that >> command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each >> program to use the flash drive GPIB address. >> >> That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - is >> to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. >> >> Monty McGraw >> >> -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 22:51:40 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:51:40 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Carlo Pisani said: > hi > you may consider selling this stuff here: > http://downthebunker.chickenkiller.com/ > free participation! In the belief (based on the URL and your unconventional introduction) that I could be at the risk of catching a virus or something, I went ahead and clicked on your link. It took me to a page that immediately made me feel my computer was imminently about to receive some nefarious code. I'm really jumpy when it comes to my computer so you'll have to forgive me. I read your messages again and realized there was some sort of major translation issue. I looked at your site again and after much consideration went ahead and clicked on the agreement button, and was then thrust into your marketplace. I am happy to report my computer did not combust into flames nor anything of the sort. So I can say, you have a legit online marketplace, and there are quite a number of items on offer there, and it's all pretty current. I appreciate your offer for me to list my stuff there but I feel much more comfortable with what I've already got going and would hate to switch over at this point after all the work I've already put into it. I thank you all the same. But I wanted to let everyone know that it's a legit site, and it has a bunch of stuff listed presently, and seems to be primarily European based, and it does seem to allow one to list for sale items for free. Take care. Sellam On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 12:24 AM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hello Folks, > > More stuff! > > New listings for June 20, 2018 > > Beck-Tech C64 ROM Emulator > 80486 Multi-Master Card > H214 8Kx16 Planar Core Memory > M7504 DEQNA Ethernet Controller > VS40X 4 Plane Color Option > Bit Boffer BB-1 > Ricoh V20 MMI Development PCB > EXT 01 slot extender board > Diablo Systems RGEXT slot extender board > Mystery Memory Board > Lexar 48K Memory Expansion Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor COP402N Processor I/O Board > National Semiconductor 8080 Processor Board Set > Quantum Q2030 hard drive logic board > Anderson Jacobson ADAC 1200 Acoustically Coupled Modem > IEV Corp. VIP-2000 > InfoChip Systems 13-000025 Compression Coprocessor Board > International TeleText Communications PC TeleText Decoder > Generic Network Card > Gould K-20 Logic Analyzer > Tektronix C-5A Oscilloscope Camera > > List with links to individual items is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 > > (Please note: the links get screwy as I add/delete items because they are > not anchored to the actual item but to the cell range, still trying to work > on a fix for this. If you link to an item and it's just not there it means > it has sold.) > > Instructions, FAQ, everything is at the link above. E-mail directly for > any questions. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Jun 21 22:56:40 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 21 Jun 2018 20:56:40 -0700 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's Collection Sales In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Kurt Hamm said: > I, too, have emailed Sellam with no response. Kurt, I tried e-mailing you at the address in the header to let you know I never received an e-mail from you but then I never heard back from you. Are you receiving me? I searched my entire Gmail account and found no messages from you. Please let me know if there's an alternate way to reach you. Sellam On Mon, Jun 4, 2018 at 9:25 PM, Sellam Ismail wrote: > Hi Folks. > > I've reorganized my sales listings into a Google Sheets set. The > introductory page is here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=0 > > Use the tabs on the bottom of the sheet to navigate to the various "rooms". > > New items have been added and are listed here: > > https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_ > HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371 > > New items are always added to the New Arrivals Niche, so that's the first > place you should check when you visit my virtual online warehouse. I will > post a message to this list and the VCFed forums whenever new items are > listed, which will occur more regularly. > > As always, please inquire directly to me via e-mail for the fastest > response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 05:34:24 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 12:34:24 +0200 Subject: New Listings for Sellam's VWoCW - June 20, 2018 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >It took me to a page that immediately made me feel > my computer was imminently about to receive some nefarious code. I have you ever heard about GPDR? the page simply informs you about that From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 07:10:05 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 07:10:05 -0500 Subject: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Randy, I had the same issue. I have an older NI GPIB to serial adapter, and since the Tektronix protocol was so customized - I couldn't get it to recover the data either. Right now I'm experimenting with a different PC serial program - which is designed to transfer data from embedded systems like Arduino. I would like to capture the data including the control characters without having to convert them. This effort is helping me get a deeper understanding of what is going on, so I can get my GPIB flash drive designed properly. Monty On Thu, Jun 21, 2018 at 9:54 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Pete, > > > Send them to Monty - my 4051 is crippled with no serial port. I > currently have no way to get data in and out of this, except via Micheal's > RAMSTORE modules. > > > Monty, I also looked at emulating the tape drive, or the floppy disk over > GPIB, that would be great, have the PC with a NI USB dongle. > > I could not figure out how to make the National Instruments dongle act > like a slave, its normally the master. > > > Randy > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Lancashire > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, June 21, 2018 11:06 AM > To: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com; General > Subject: Re: More tapes - This time all Tektronix 405x series > > a few months ago i had about 20 4051/4052 tapes. if i still do i can send > them to you > > On Wed, Jun 20, 2018 at 5:53 AM Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I was successfull at capturing all the files from a 4051 Graphics T1 tape > > last weekend. > > > > Here is the link to a couple of photos of the process: > > > > Capturing Tektronix 4051 Graphics T1 tape files to laptop > > > > > > First I replaced the disintegrated drive belt with one from a NOS 3M > DC6250 > > cartridge. > > > > I used my 4051 to PC serial transfer program on my recently repaired and > > upgraded 4054A. > > > > I set the comm speed of the 4054 serial interface to the maximum 9600 > baud, > > but as it is 7-bit, my program changes all 32 Tektronix control > characters > > to "~X~" where X is the ASCII character corresponding to that control > > character. > > > > This way I don't lose any of the Tektronix 405x text formatting in the > > transfer. > > > > I was using ExtraPutty on the laptop to capture the program text strings, > > then copied the statements into Notepad++ and saved each file. > > > > I am also working on a Tektronix 4051/52/54 compatible GPIB MicroSD flash > > drive that will emulate the Tektronix 4924 tape drive - for all of us > with > > these computers to use - since both the tapes and drives are very > > problematic after all these years. > > > > This flash drive contains an Arduino with my code - based on the GPIB > > flowcharts and info in a 4051 and 4052 GPIB manual. > > > > You will be able to use the existing 405x program statements with @Y for > > the drive GPIB address - since I don't know how to write a ROMPACK for > any > > of the series :) > > > > I plan to organize the different captured tapes in directories on the > flash > > - and that may mean using a non-4924 GPIB secondary address for that > > command. It also likely means I need to change any tape commands in each > > program to use the flash drive GPIB address. > > > > That's why I wanted to capture one of the Tektronix tapes with a menu - > is > > to ensure I could get those files to work on my flash drive design. > > > > Monty McGraw > > > > > From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Jun 22 13:12:40 2018 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:12:40 +0200 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20180622181240.rg2tyaozialu57kt@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2018-05-04 08:13:05 +0100, mark--- via cctalk wrote: > The Linux Kernel has support for DEC VSXXX mouse (as well as LK keyboards), the opposite of what you are interested in. > So the conversion from DEC protocol is well documented. > It would be fairly straightforward with a microcontroller to implement the reverse. > > See: https://code.woboq.org/linux/linux/drivers/input/mouse/vsxxxaa.c.html I think that it should be quite straight-forward to use an Arduino to mimic a VSXXX-AA mouse. Some time ago, somebody even contacted me with exactly this in mind, and I remember he found public code already available to implement exactly what you're looking for. *searching* https://bitbucket.org/tinyscsi/decmouse/src/fc73c57dce5926ac1ab9f0958ba82cf1e8cbe88e/DECMouse.ino?at=master&fileviewer=file-view-default Maybe this'll (at least) help you implementing something with an Arduino, or even solve your issue completely. Reading the source, the PS/2 mouse is attached to two GPIO pins in that sketch (#5 for data, #6 for clock), and the VAXstation will be connected to Arduino's serial port. (Keep in mind that you'll want do have a level shifter in between, some MAX232 variant.) MfG, JBG -- From jbglaw at lug-owl.de Fri Jun 22 13:16:54 2018 From: jbglaw at lug-owl.de (Jan-Benedict Glaw) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:16:54 +0200 Subject: DEC Mouse replacement In-Reply-To: <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <52c5947e-6dfe-77d3-c9d8-ecbd5004b358@comcast.net> <006901d3e377$598b2160$0ca16420$@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <20180622181654.74xd7iyoqx2xuksq@lug-owl.de> On Fri, 2018-05-04 08:13:05 +0100, mark--- via cctalk wrote: > The Linux Kernel has support for DEC VSXXX mouse (as well as LK keyboards), the opposite of what you are interested in. > So the conversion from DEC protocol is well documented. > It would be fairly straightforward with a microcontroller to implement the reverse. > > See: https://code.woboq.org/linux/linux/drivers/input/mouse/vsxxxaa.c.html Adding another reply: I wouldn't recommend to use the driver source code as a starting point, but rather fetch DEC's specs about the two mice (VSXXX-AA and VSXXX-GA) and their tablet (VSXXX-AB), which are all described in the "VCB02 Video Subsystem Technical Manual", available here: https://www.vt100.net/manx/details?pn=EK-104AA-TM-001;id=21;cp=1 MfG, JBG -- From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Jun 22 17:34:15 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 15:34:15 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. 115 boxes of manuals and documents. 26 boxes of coffee mugs 73 703 boxes of stuff. 106 loose big items. Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 17:51:09 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 18:51:09 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:34 PM Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > > um. Yah that must have taken all of .4 seconds to find someone who would have wanted it all. From cctalk at emailtoilet.com Fri Jun 22 18:22:34 2018 From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com (cctalk at emailtoilet.com) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 16:22:34 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: <000d01d40a7f$e6eca5e0$b4c5f1a0$@emailtoilet.com> Well, not really. CHM only wants my punched card collection (4000+ cards) which they are getting when I croak. Did not want the other stuff. Livingcomputers only interested in miniatures. I will swear I sent a note to Al Kossow about manuals. No reply. From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Fri Jun 22 19:02:49 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:02:49 +0000 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com>, Message-ID: Wow that was a heck of a collection. Wish I had known about it! ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:51 PM To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM junk On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:34 PM Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ IBM junk www.ibmjunkman.com IBM junk > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > > um. Yah that must have taken all of .4 seconds to find someone who would have wanted it all. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 22 19:21:17 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:21:17 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1642a0439bf-c8d-e74a@webjas-vad102.srv.aolmail.net> absolutely amazing! ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Friday, June 22, 2018 Benjamin Huntsman via cctalk wrote: Wow that was a heck of a collection. Wish I had known about it! ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Degnan via cctalk Sent: Friday, June 22, 2018 3:51 PM To: cctalk at emailtoilet.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: IBM junk On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:34 PM Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ IBM junk www.ibmjunkman.com IBM junk > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > > um. Yah that must have taken all of .4 seconds to find someone who would have wanted it all. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 22 19:39:34 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 20:39:34 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <859ED79F-E61D-4A0F-9A28-9F6D07350BA8@comcast.net> > On Jun 22, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ Interesting. RK05 style packs, I remember those from the 360 model 44. Did anything else from IBM use those? paul From steven at malikoff.com Fri Jun 22 19:50:00 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 10:50:00 +1000 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. A nice collection of ephemera. I've been very very slowly trying to rebuild my dad's CE toolkit from his 650 and 360 days and your photos show some tools and bits I've yet to collect, so thank you for that. Steve. From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Fri Jun 22 20:32:08 2018 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 18:32:08 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: I believe the 1130 used the 2315 From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jun 22 22:50:10 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:50:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 22 Jun 2018, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. Did you get rid of the SAGE pluggable units, as well? JUNK283 - JUNK285 And the display scope parts? JUNK420 I used to work on SAGE, and have an interest in parts and pieces. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From pete at pski.net Fri Jun 22 22:53:03 2018 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:53:03 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <0294FC5B-C076-44AA-BA1C-E89B671B4C5D@pski.net> That?s a Computer Museum Starter Kit. Wow. From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Fri Jun 22 23:32:58 2018 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 21:32:58 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: 4th sentence. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 22 23:41:30 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:41:30 -0400 Subject: IBM junk https://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg logic trainer ibm on left what can you tell me about it!? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <1642af272c5-c92-1c611@webjas-vaa214.srv.aolmail.net> Re: IBM junk https://www.smecc.org/wpe_files/wpe45.jpg logic trainer ibm on left what can you tell me about it!?? thanks? ed sharpe ? ? In a message dated 6/22/2018 8:50:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Fri, 22 Jun 2018, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. Did you get rid of the SAGE pluggable units, as well? JUNK283 - JUNK285 And the display scope parts? JUNK420 I used to work on SAGE, and have an interest in parts and pieces. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jun 22 23:43:38 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 00:43:38 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1642af46a7d-c95-15bb0@webjas-vaa215.srv.aolmail.net> gave it away or? sold it? and where was it? geographically? ? In a message dated 6/22/2018 9:33:06 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? 4th sentence. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. From cctalk at ibmjunkman.com Fri Jun 22 23:53:24 2018 From: cctalk at ibmjunkman.com (cctalk) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 21:53:24 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: Sorry, I know nothing about the panel on the left. My items were in California. I will check with recipient to see if I can mention them. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jun 22 23:59:52 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 22 Jun 2018 23:59:52 -0500 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Hi Mike, I figured you would see those. Paul, 21ST Air Defense Command On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 10:50 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, 22 Jun 2018, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It >> had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. >> > > Did you get rid of the SAGE pluggable units, as well? > > JUNK283 - JUNK285 > > And the display scope parts? > > JUNK420 > > I used to work on SAGE, and have an interest in parts and pieces. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From mazzinia at tin.it Sat Jun 23 07:01:50 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 14:01:50 +0200 Subject: R: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <008101d40ae9$f897e970$e9c7bc50$@tin.it> Watching all the pictures was a really good experience, especially considering how many of those items I would never have had the chance of seeing otherwise. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Donald via cctalk Inviato: sabato 23 giugno 2018 00:34 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: IBM junk Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. 115 boxes of manuals and documents. 26 boxes of coffee mugs 73 703 boxes of stuff. 106 loose big items. Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jun 23 08:11:48 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 09:11:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: eBay: HP 21MX E-Series Minicomputer 2109B Message-ID: <20180623131148.80E3A18C073@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Figure you HP fans will already have seen this, but in case not: https://www.ebay.com/itm/332695779697 Noel From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 11:38:09 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 18:38:09 +0200 Subject: C3253A HP Envizex P-Series Message-ID: (x11 terminal) C3253A HP Envizex P-Series Up for sale is a X-Terminal made by Hewlett Packard in 1995. Tested, in perfect working conditions!!! cpu: i960 @ 33Mhz (it's the fastest available on Envizex v1) ram: 48MB (builtin + 16+16+8, the first two sims need to be equal) rom: none (sorry, It doesn't have any font-rom, it loads fonts from tftp/NFS) vram: 2MB lan: 10Mbps BASET RJ45 (it also comes with an AUI port on the back) kb/mouse: common PS/2 (F12 is a special key, but Envizex works on common keyboards, HIL keyboards are also supported) Media: floppy 3.5",1.44MB Software included! It comes with all the documentation, configuration-scripts, and startup for Linux (sorry, I don't have HPUXv10.20/v11, I can't test/adapt scrips). The machine is perfectly working, it supports the X Display Manager Control Protocol (XDMCP), you just need to power on your hardwired terminal and be greeted with a login prompt. This purpose is easy to be accomplished on HP terminals, especially if you use NFS instead of tftpboot. HP-net-stations can boot using either Network File System or Trivial FTP, with NFS being the preferred method it's simpler. During the final phase of startup, the bootup screen disappears and the X station loads bin/modules.ld, which tells what can be optionally loaded (but not executed), and then starts the X session by executing the application that was specified by the user on config/autoexec.cfg It supports all of the following: XDM login VUE CDE Lite (its panel appears similar to the one you can see on HPUX) mwm (simple windows manager) twm (simple windows manager) If you see one of first three login screens in the above list, you just need to enter your login account and password. 80 euro + s/h located in Switzerland From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Jun 23 13:32:49 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 11:32:49 -0700 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... Message-ID: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> With the demise of Weirdstuff, I decided to visit Outback Equipment in Gilroy this week. Jim Schuetz, formerly a partner at Weirdstuff is now the Business Development Manager at Outback. While there, I looked over the following DEC gear (includes several non-DEC QBus cards that I'm not listing - as I have no idea what they are). Here's the DEC gear available: PDP 11/23 Plus (BC) PDP 11/73A (BC) PDP 11/23 Plus (BE) marked "Bad" (3) QBus Zip Drive controllers (1) M8043 DLVJ1-M (formerly DLV11-J) (2) M8190 (AB) KDJ11 (1) M9081 (LF?) (1) M7551 (AH?) MSV11-QA (1) M8029 RXV21 There's more "stuff" that you can see from the pictures below. All the PDP-11 "boxes" and boards look to be good cosmetically. Photos here: https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMAvVBdhz20-z7l6W9JXhBB0k3ggw0HWveHctEup826NNIWPAxUlk1lbW-RY76zUQ?key=dkh2MFhieTVZQTlqeTZQelI2WU1OYXVpRFNweTN3 Jim would like to sell the above as a lot. His contact info is: jim at outbackequipment.com Phone: 408-886-3733 Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From wdonzelli at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 16:03:13 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:03:13 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Thank you for posting the link to all those pictures. It looks like lots stuff that never made it to your website. As we all know, too many collectors keep their collections very private, with very few allowed to see all the fun. I hope the new owner continues to make the items visible. -- Will On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 6:34 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 16:06:52 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 14:06:52 -0700 Subject: C3253A HP Envizex P-Series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 9:38 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > (x11 terminal) C3253A HP Envizex P-Series > > Up for sale is a X-Terminal made by Hewlett Packard in 1995. > > Tested, in perfect working conditions!!! > > cpu: i960 @ 33Mhz (it's the fastest available on Envizex v1) > ram: 48MB (builtin + 16+16+8, the first two sims need to be equal) > rom: none (sorry, It doesn't have any font-rom, it loads fonts from tftp/NFS) > vram: 2MB > lan: 10Mbps BASET RJ45 (it also comes with an AUI port on the back) > kb/mouse: common PS/2 (F12 is a special key, but Envizex works on > common keyboards, HIL keyboards are also supported) > Media: floppy 3.5",1.44MB > Software included! > > It comes with all the documentation, configuration-scripts, and > startup for Linux (sorry, I don't have HPUXv10.20/v11, I can't > test/adapt scrips). > I also have a C3253A HP Envizex P-Series. I was fortunate to also acquire a PCMCIA flash card adapter for it and was able to get it set up to boot from a PCMCIA linear flash card. I don't have the optional floppy drive in mine. I have a set of 3 Netstation software CDs that I got from someone else on the list a few years ago. I forget if I ever uploaded images of these CDs somewhere. For the C3253A HP Envizex P-Series you need Version 7.1 Netstation Software For HP ENVIZEX, ENTRIA and 700/RX Version 7.1 Supported Hosts: HP/SUN/IBM Part No. B3651-10117 Netstation Software For HP ENVIZEX II and ENTRIA II Version 9.1 Supported Hosts: HP/SUN/IBM Part No. B3651-10121 Netstation Software For HP Netstations Version 7.1/9.1 Supported Hosts: HP-UX 11.0 Part No. B3651-10122 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 16:17:10 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 22:17:10 +0100 Subject: Strange Teledisk question Message-ID: Hi folks, For the last few weeks I?ve been helping the owner of a PPG2.2 synthesizer get the ?computer? side of it, a Waveterm A, running. The Waveterm is a 6809-based single board computer running FLEX that was designed to use 8? drives, then at some point they modified it slightly to use 5.25? HD drives instead but changed very little - to connect up to the main board they made a 34-50pin adapter. The drives are YE-Data YD380 with a Shugart interface so without some sort of signal bender like a DBit FDADAP I couldn?t just plug them into a PC. However, the YE-Data YD380B has an IBM interface so we used one of those, same mechanism so we figured it should work. All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them wouldn?t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a difference between working and non-working disks? Trivia: for anyone aware of the 80s UK Music industry this very machine was used for the hit ?You spin me round (like a record)? by Dead Or Alive. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jun 23 17:29:34 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:29:34 -0500 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> On 06/23/2018 01:32 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: > > There's more "stuff" that you can see from the pictures below. All the > PDP-11 "boxes" and boards look to be good cosmetically. > > Photos here: > https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMAvVBdhz20-z7l6W9JXhBB0k3ggw0HWveHctEup826NNIWPAxUlk1lbW-RY76zUQ?key=dkh2MFhieTVZQTlqeTZQelI2WU1OYXVpRFNweTN3 > > There is a blue board with a blue handle that is a Q-bus Andromeda disk controller. It will, IIRC, run one floppy and up to 2 MFM hard drives. I had one on a uVAX-II a LONG time ago. Jon From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 18:01:59 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 16:01:59 -0700 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Woohoo! What a collection! And none of it junk! Well done. Let me guess: staying in the US, East Coast, southern part? In any case, great that you found an acquirer that could preserve your awesome collecting work. And thanks so much for sharing the nice photos. Marc > On Jun 22, 2018, at 3:34 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jun 23 18:37:43 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 16:37:43 -0700 Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> On 06/23/2018 02:17 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs > written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them > wouldn?t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new > image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the > same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a > difference between working and non-working disks? I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the thing for something like 17 years. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 23 18:53:56 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 16:53:56 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs >> written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them >> wouldn?t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new >> image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the >> same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a >> difference between working and non-working disks? On Sat, 23 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the > thing for something like 17 years. I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. For example, if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is too short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the first sector. (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not usually a prolem with WD-style FDC) Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on TRS80 Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From imp at bsdimp.com Sat Jun 23 19:20:42 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 18:20:42 -0600 Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 5:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > All the disk images for the Waveterm have been created using programs >>> written by PPG users. For some reason any disk we wrote with them >>> wouldn?t read correctly in the machine itself UNTIL we made a new >>> image of that disk using Teledisk 2.15 then re-wrote it back to the >>> same floppy. My question is why should that make so much of a >>> difference between working and non-working disks? >>> >> On Sat, 23 Jun 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> I'd love to be able to tell you, but I really haven't fooled with the >> thing for something like 17 years. >> > > I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. > > If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the > other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. > > If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to > examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. > Also, sector ordering can be an issue with more obscure formats... Though most drives can cope with non-consecutive ordering... In some cases, track width may also matter, especially for 40 track formats. > For example, > if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is too > short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the first > sector. (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not usually a > prolem with WD-style FDC) > > Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? > I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on TRS80 > Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. > I used to mess around with different drives on different machines. These days I find that kyroflux just works (on the right drive) and I don't have to mess with weird things. It has a small learning curve, but it allowed me, through brute force, to read the Rainbow Venix disks that were otherwise not readable... It was ~$100 well spent... Warner From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jun 23 21:03:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 19:03:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: What kind of drives does the Waveterm use? What kind of disk controller? For example: 96tpi (80 tracks per side) drives can read 48tpi (40 tracks per side) disks, and can write them to virgin disks, but, when RE-writing them, leave part of the old (wide) track alongside. Those RE-written disks are readable by a 96tpi drive, but not necessarily by a 48tpi drive. PC is NEC-style FDC. WD-style disk controllers (such as 179x) can handle post index gap smaller than NEC-style can. For reading with NEC controllers, that can often be handled by masking the index pulse. WD-style controllers can read sectors that have a WRONG number in the side number field, but NEC can't ignore that field. The good news there is on formats that use a wrong number in the side number field (such as Kaypro DS), the WD controller doesn't MIND if it encounters the correct number in that field. SOME NEC-style FDCs can not handle 128 bytes per sector. Some can. The FDADAP adapter's primary difference between a simple cable is support of TG43, a signal to indicate that it is on an inner track, for write-precompensation, etc. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 00:37:22 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 23:37:22 -0600 Subject: Weird Lear-Siegler ADM-3A board In-Reply-To: References: <155D51FC-667C-4873-92AB-7E05BA92A283@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 1:10 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, May 25, 2018 at 3:30 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Wow, good spot! This one isn?t badged but we just assumed it had fallen >> off. Just as I?m typing this he?s messaged me to say it?s actually the >> ADM-3A ?10th Anniversary edition?. The manual is on bitsavers: >> > > It might have _started_ its life as an ADM-3A 10th Anniversary Edition, > but it isn't one any more. The PCB in the photo is the Zentec ADM3 Retrofit. > I may have been completely wrong about that. When I wrote that, I wasn't aware that Zentec bought the terminal product line from Lear Siegler in 1986, and continued making some of the terminals, including the ADM-3A, under the Zentec name. Since the LSI ADM-3A was introduced in 1976, It's possible that Zentec introduced the ADM-3A 10th Anniversary Edition with the NS405-based logic board. Eric From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jun 24 01:16:14 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 23:16:14 -0700 Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 06/23/2018 04:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I had hoped that Chuck would have an answer. > > If you have two disks that are nominally the same, and one works and the > other doesn't, then there is obviously something different. > > If the sector contents are the same, then the next step would be to > examine the headers, gaps, and addressmarks. > > For example, > if the gap after index pulse, before the first sector ofeach track is > too short, then it may not be able to read the sector header of the > first sector.? (A serious and common problem with NEC-style FDC, not > usually a prolem with WD-style FDC) > > Do you have a way to examine the raw track encoding? > I used a track read with a WD 179x (slightly modified "Trakcess" on > TRS80 Model 3), and "TE" with the Central Point Option Board. Find a copy of Anadisk and see what it reports regarding sector ordering. Also, you might try "sector" mode with the "Diagnostic Read" function, though that requires a bit of knowledge. Another thing to try is to grab a copy of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk utility and see if it gets the copy right. You could also image both disks and compare the images. TeleDisk has a lot of "special case" code. People still have diskette drives? --Chuck From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Jun 24 04:00:44 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 11:00:44 +0200 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: <001b01d40b99$da186280$8e492780$@computer.org> What an incredible collection and thanks for taking the time to photograph it. It was great fun going thru the slides. From the content my guess is u were at least at some time at IBM SJ I understand u have a collector for all of it, but if by chance he/she and you have some original 3880 Storage Control manuals particularly for the caching models (-11,13,21,23) I'd like copies if it can be arranged. If they could be mailed to me I will scan them and provide originals and scans back to the owner. Contact me off line if this can be arranged It is disappointing about the CHM; although most of the materials are duplicates of what they have I did see a few gems I suspect they don't have Regards, Tom -----Original Message----- From: cctalk at emailtoilet.com [mailto:cctalk at emailtoilet.com] Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 12:34 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: IBM junk Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. 115 boxes of manuals and documents. 26 boxes of coffee mugs 73 703 boxes of stuff. 106 loose big items. Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 04:15:02 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 10:15:02 +0100 Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On 24 Jun 2018, at 03:03, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > What kind of drives does the Waveterm use? I mentioned that in the original message, YE-Data YD380 HD with Shugart interface > What kind of disk controller? WD FDC1793. The main board is an Eltec Eurocom II V7. > For example: > 96tpi (80 tracks per side) drives can read 48tpi (40 tracks per side) disks, and can write them to virgin disks, but, when RE-writing them, leave part of the old (wide) track alongside. Those RE-written disks are readable by a 96tpi drive, but not necessarily by a 48tpi drive. The PC?s drive is simply the IBM version of the same drive, it?s a YE-Data YD380B. We format a disk using the PPG utilitiy (PPGA.EXE) then write a disk image to it, reread that disk with Teledisk and re-rewrite it again with Teledisk back to the same disk. > PC is NEC-style FDC. The motherboard in the PC we?re using is an Abit board containing a Winbond SuperIO chip, I can?t remember which variant but it seems most Athlon-based boards have one of these chips on, my own imaging machine is an Abit KV8Pro with a Winbond W83627HF. What that is based on I have no idea. > > WD-style disk controllers (such as 179x) can handle post index gap smaller than NEC-style can. For reading with NEC controllers, that can often be handled by masking the index pulse. > > WD-style controllers can read sectors that have a WRONG number in the side number field, but NEC can't ignore that field. The good news there is on formats that use a wrong number in the side number field (such as Kaypro DS), the WD controller doesn't MIND if it encounters the correct number in that field. So you?re saying that the WD controller is a lot more easy-going for slightly awry disks whereas the NEC one is more strict? That could make sense in this case were we going from WD to NEC but we?re going the other way around. > The FDADAP adapter's primary difference between a simple cable is support of TG43, a signal to indicate that it is on an inner track, for write-precompensation, etc. For 8? drives yes, which at some point I will be using assuming both my 8? drives work, but it should also let me connect up a non-IBM drive to my PC if I read the description correctly. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 04:22:17 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 10:22:17 +0100 Subject: Strange Teledisk question In-Reply-To: References: <445843ca-716b-f6d4-80be-d3e4c428ccba@sydex.com> Message-ID: > Find a copy of Anadisk and see what it reports regarding sector > ordering. Also, you might try "sector" mode with the "Diagnostic Read" > function, though that requires a bit of knowledge. I did have a look at that, now that the show we were getting ready for is finished I can spend a bit more time analysing. I used Anadisk to get disk details for ImageDisk because that?s usually the first utility I go for. It was just pure fluke that I suggested he re-imaged the disk with Teledisk and was amazed that it worked. > Another thing to try is to grab a copy of Dave Dunfield's ImageDisk > utility and see if it gets the copy right. You could also image both > disks and compare the images. I?ll do that too. Hurray for ?special case? code though :) > People still have diskette drives? Somebody has apparently got an HxC emulator running in a Waveterm but we didn?t have time to investigate that route. Because the Waveterm is still thinking there?s 8? drives in there it keeps the motor running constantly and only drops the head to read a sample. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com Sun Jun 24 05:42:36 2018 From: kevin_anderson_dbq at yahoo.com (Kevin Anderson) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 02:42:36 -0800 Subject: No subject Message-ID: <1529836960.X2TYf2zNbvjYdX2TgfojkZ@mf-smf-ucb022c2> http://dream.sowit.org Kevin Anderson From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jun 24 18:29:36 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 23:29:36 +0000 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 06/23/2018 06:29 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 06/23/2018 01:32 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: >> >> There's more "stuff" that you can see from the pictures below. All the >> PDP-11 "boxes" and boards look to be good cosmetically. >> >> Photos here: >> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMAvVBdhz20-z7l6W9JXhBB0k3ggw0HWveHctEup826NNIWPAxUlk1lbW-RY76zUQ?key=dkh2MFhieTVZQTlqeTZQelI2WU1OYXVpRFNweTN3 >> >> >> > There is a blue board with a blue handle that is a Q-bus Andromeda > disk controller. > It will, IIRC, run one floppy and up to 2 MFM hard drives.? I had one > on a uVAX-II a LONG time ago. > Yes, but not without the "Personality Modules" that connect to the 50 pin connector.? I have two boards but only 2 MFM and 1 5.25 floppy adapter. bill From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jun 24 21:46:41 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 21:46:41 -0500 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5B305791.9060207@pico-systems.com> On 06/24/2018 06:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/23/2018 06:29 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> On 06/23/2018 01:32 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: >>> There's more "stuff" that you can see from the pictures below. All the >>> PDP-11 "boxes" and boards look to be good cosmetically. >>> >>> Photos here: >>> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMAvVBdhz20-z7l6W9JXhBB0k3ggw0HWveHctEup826NNIWPAxUlk1lbW-RY76zUQ?key=dkh2MFhieTVZQTlqeTZQelI2WU1OYXVpRFNweTN3 >>> >>> >>> >> There is a blue board with a blue handle that is a Q-bus Andromeda >> disk controller. >> It will, IIRC, run one floppy and up to 2 MFM hard drives. I had one >> on a uVAX-II a LONG time ago. >> > Yes, but not without the "Personality Modules" that connect to the 50 pin > connector. I have two boards but only 2 MFM and 1 5.25 floppy adapter. > > The personality module is JUST connectors and traces. So, you could build one with wire wrap wire or whatever. I used to have the schematic of that module here, may still have it around. Jon From brain at jbrain.com Sun Jun 24 23:27:55 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 23:27:55 -0500 Subject: Fwd: Re: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: <6.2.3.4.2.20180625055104.05563188@nicadae.dw.co.za> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20180625055104.05563188@nicadae.dw.co.za> Message-ID: <65918591-f441-c351-edd5-d8e5603dacbe@jbrain.com> Anyone live near this Hotel?? I am just getting home and am just now seeing this.? Evidently, this is a rescue attempt, but I don't have a bunch of detail as yet. Jim Hi Jim I sent the below email to Peter yesterday. Have not heard from him. It would be a pity if neither of you can arrange to get hold of this stuff. Can you maybe provide backup if Peter can't make it? W Hi Peter TRS-80 bits will be at the Watson Hotel. 440 57th Str. Hell's Kitchen, NY 10019. Fellow is called Marius Killian and he's there today and tomorrow (24th and 25th). Sorry about short notice but I only came home last night. Please make plan to pick up, or for hotel to hold for you. Let me know. W From rp at servium.ch Mon Jun 25 05:26:00 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 12:26:00 +0200 Subject: C3253A HP Envizex P-Series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 11:06 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 9:38 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk > wrote: > > (x11 terminal) C3253A HP Envizex P-Series > > > > Up for sale is a X-Terminal made by Hewlett Packard in 1995. > > > > Tested, in perfect working conditions!!! > > > > cpu: i960 @ 33Mhz (it's the fastest available on Envizex v1) > > ram: 48MB (builtin + 16+16+8, the first two sims need to be equal) > > rom: none (sorry, It doesn't have any font-rom, it loads fonts from > tftp/NFS) > > vram: 2MB > > lan: 10Mbps BASET RJ45 (it also comes with an AUI port on the back) > > kb/mouse: common PS/2 (F12 is a special key, but Envizex works on > > common keyboards, HIL keyboards are also supported) > > Media: floppy 3.5",1.44MB > > Software included! > > > > It comes with all the documentation, configuration-scripts, and > > startup for Linux (sorry, I don't have HPUXv10.20/v11, I can't > > test/adapt scrips). > > > > I also have a C3253A HP Envizex P-Series. I was fortunate to also > acquire a PCMCIA flash card adapter for it and was able to get it set > up to boot from a PCMCIA linear flash card. I don't have the optional > floppy drive in mine. > > I have a set of 3 Netstation software CDs that I got from someone else > on the list a few years ago. I forget if I ever uploaded images of > these CDs somewhere. For the C3253A HP Envizex P-Series you need > Version 7.1 > could you upload them to archive.org? Netstation software is somewhat hard to find these days. Netstation Software > For HP ENVIZEX, ENTRIA and 700/RX > Version 7.1 > Supported Hosts: HP/SUN/IBM > Part No. B3651-10117 > > Netstation Software > For HP ENVIZEX II and ENTRIA II > Version 9.1 > Supported Hosts: HP/SUN/IBM > Part No. B3651-10121 > > Netstation Software > For HP Netstations > Version 7.1/9.1 > Supported Hosts: HP-UX 11.0 > Part No. B3651-10122 > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 06:02:36 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:02:36 +0000 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: <5B305791.9060207@pico-systems.com> References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> <5B305791.9060207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 06/24/2018 10:46 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/24/2018 06:29 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 06/23/2018 06:29 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> On 06/23/2018 01:32 PM, Lyle Bickley via cctalk wrote: >>>> There's more "stuff" that you can see from the pictures below. All the >>>> PDP-11 "boxes" and boards look to be good cosmetically. >>>> >>>> Photos here: >>>> https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipMAvVBdhz20-z7l6W9JXhBB0k3ggw0HWveHctEup826NNIWPAxUlk1lbW-RY76zUQ?key=dkh2MFhieTVZQTlqeTZQelI2WU1OYXVpRFNweTN3 >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> There is a blue board with a blue handle that is a Q-bus Andromeda >>> disk controller. >>> It will, IIRC, run one floppy and up to 2 MFM hard drives.? I had one >>> on a uVAX-II a LONG time ago. >>> >> Yes, but not without the "Personality Modules" that connect to the 50 >> pin >> connector.? I have two boards but only 2 MFM and 1 5.25 floppy adapter. >> >> > The personality module is JUST connectors and traces.? So, you could > build one with wire wrap wire or whatever.? I used to have the > schematic of that module here, may still have it around. > The WPC5W is a bit more than connectors and traces as it has an AM24LS31 on the board and requires power.? But, if you have the schematic for the WPC8F I would love a copy. bill From pete at pski.net Mon Jun 25 06:03:37 2018 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 07:03:37 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: <65918591-f441-c351-edd5-d8e5603dacbe@jbrain.com> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20180625055104.05563188@nicadae.dw.co.za> <65918591-f441-c351-edd5-d8e5603dacbe@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <701F36A9-E338-49F1-BB16-14E53155B1C9@pski.net> I just emailed him. There?s no way I can get there in the next few days. Pete > On Jun 25, 2018, at 12:27 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone live near this Hotel? I am just getting home and am just now seeing this. Evidently, this is a rescue attempt, but I don't have a bunch of detail as yet. > > > Jim > > > Hi Jim > > I sent the below email to Peter yesterday. Have not heard from him. > It would be a pity if neither of you can arrange to get hold of this > stuff. Can you maybe provide backup if Peter can't make it? > > W > > Hi Peter > > TRS-80 bits will be at the Watson Hotel. 440 57th Str. Hell's > Kitchen, NY 10019. > > Fellow is called Marius Killian and he's there today and tomorrow > (24th and 25th). Sorry about short notice but I only came home last night. > > Please make plan to pick up, or for hotel to hold for you. Let me know. > > W > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 06:38:41 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 13:38:41 +0200 Subject: C3253A HP Envizex P-Series In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > could you upload them to archive.org? no From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 08:37:07 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 09:37:07 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: <701F36A9-E338-49F1-BB16-14E53155B1C9@pski.net> References: <6.2.3.4.2.20180625055104.05563188@nicadae.dw.co.za> <65918591-f441-c351-edd5-d8e5603dacbe@jbrain.com> <701F36A9-E338-49F1-BB16-14E53155B1C9@pski.net> Message-ID: I like that area of NYC, nice place to get a good meal. I'll be around the area in a few weeks, it's kind of near the Lincoln tunnel IIRC, the Javits Convention Center, etc. Just off my memory. b On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:03 AM Peter Cetinski via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I just emailed him. There?s no way I can get there in the next few days. > > Pete > > > On Jun 25, 2018, at 12:27 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Anyone live near this Hotel? I am just getting home and am just now > seeing this. Evidently, this is a rescue attempt, but I don't have a bunch > of detail as yet. > > > > > > Jim > > > > > > Hi Jim > > > > I sent the below email to Peter yesterday. Have not heard from him. > > It would be a pity if neither of you can arrange to get hold of this > > stuff. Can you maybe provide backup if Peter can't make it? > > > > W > > > > Hi Peter > > > > TRS-80 bits will be at the Watson Hotel. 440 57th Str. Hell's > > Kitchen, NY 10019. > > > > Fellow is called Marius Killian and he's there today and tomorrow > > (24th and 25th). Sorry about short notice but I only came home last > night. > > > > Please make plan to pick up, or for hotel to hold for you. Let me know. > > > > W > > > From cliendo at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 10:33:32 2018 From: cliendo at gmail.com (Christian Liendo) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:33:32 -0400 Subject: TRS-80 bits In-Reply-To: References: <6.2.3.4.2.20180625055104.05563188@nicadae.dw.co.za> <65918591-f441-c351-edd5-d8e5603dacbe@jbrain.com> <701F36A9-E338-49F1-BB16-14E53155B1C9@pski.net> Message-ID: I live in Manhattan, ping me off line maybe I can help. On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 9:37 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > I like that area of NYC, nice place to get a good meal. I'll be around the > area in a few weeks, it's kind of near the Lincoln tunnel IIRC, the Javits > Convention Center, etc. Just off my memory. > b > > On Mon, Jun 25, 2018 at 7:03 AM Peter Cetinski via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I just emailed him. There?s no way I can get there in the next few days. >> >> Pete >> >> > On Jun 25, 2018, at 12:27 AM, Jim Brain via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > Anyone live near this Hotel? I am just getting home and am just now >> seeing this. Evidently, this is a rescue attempt, but I don't have a bunch >> of detail as yet. >> > >> > >> > Jim >> > >> > >> > Hi Jim >> > >> > I sent the below email to Peter yesterday. Have not heard from him. >> > It would be a pity if neither of you can arrange to get hold of this >> > stuff. Can you maybe provide backup if Peter can't make it? >> > >> > W >> > >> > Hi Peter >> > >> > TRS-80 bits will be at the Watson Hotel. 440 57th Str. Hell's >> > Kitchen, NY 10019. >> > >> > Fellow is called Marius Killian and he's there today and tomorrow >> > (24th and 25th). Sorry about short notice but I only came home last >> night. >> > >> > Please make plan to pick up, or for hotel to hold for you. Let me know. >> > >> > W >> > >> From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jun 25 10:39:04 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:39:04 -0400 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16437992f9a-c92-a69@webjas-vad191.srv.aolmail.net> OK thanks! That IBM logic? trainer no one? seems to have? ever seen or has? any data on it.? it? used a? separate power supply..? the? part? you see in the photo was? really interesting as it? fits in a? gray? wood? case with lots of? plugable? tube modules like are used in? all the? ?non? sage? type? ? IBM computers? and other? parts...? It? would be? fun to find a manual? for it and? the power supply! ? of all things? ?found at a regular? drive in? park n swap. probably? 15? years ago? ? they wanted $10? ?for it. I thought it? was a tester? or? something at? first... ? Ed# www.smecc.org? ? ? ? In a message dated 6/22/2018 9:53:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Sorry, I know nothing about the panel on the left. My items were in California. I will check with recipient to see if I can mention them. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jun 25 11:00:58 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 11:00:58 -0500 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> <5B305791.9060207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5B3111BA.6020607@pico-systems.com> On 06/25/2018 06:02 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > The WPC5W is a bit more than connectors and traces as it has an AM24LS31 > on the board and requires power. But, if you have the schematic for the > WPC8F > I would love a copy. > > I sure don't remember that. I may be remembering a different board. I will keep an eye open for the schematic, but don't get your hopes up too high. Jon From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jun 25 11:18:37 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 16:18:37 +0000 Subject: Lot of DEC QBus gear available... In-Reply-To: <5B3111BA.6020607@pico-systems.com> References: <20180623113249.6a363895@asrock.bcwi.net> <5B2EC9CE.1030005@pico-systems.com> <5B305791.9060207@pico-systems.com> <5B3111BA.6020607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 06/25/2018 12:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/25/2018 06:02 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> The WPC5W is a bit more than connectors and traces as it has an AM24LS31 >> on the board and requires power.? But, if you have the schematic for the >> WPC8F >> I would love a copy. >> >> > I sure don't remember that.? I may be remembering a different board.? > I will keep an eye open for the schematic, but don't get your hopes up > too high. > I have two boards and two WPC5W's for use with old disks (running out of those!) And I have one WPC5F for 5.25 floppies.? It works really well. I would love to find a couple WPC8F's so I could hang 8" drives on a PDP and read some old disks as my real RX02 seems to have finally bought the farm.? I tried using the WPC5F with the adapter from Dbit but haven't had much luck going that way. I like the boards!! bill From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Jun 25 16:20:58 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 17:20:58 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! Message-ID: All, A few months ago, I mentioned one of my suppliers had Belden 89880 thicknet Ethernet cable. Well, last week I finally made it down to his warehouse and picked it up! The final bits for a test segment came in today, so I set up a little link between my SPARCstation 10 and DEChub 90: https://imgur.com/a/GDUR36j Anyone interested in cable can email me directly (please change the subject line, it'll get binned into my cctalk folder otherwise). I can provide any level of "kit" from just the cable to fully ready to go. I do have a very few NOS Cabletron ST-500-01 transceiver/non-intrusive tap kits as well. Thanks, Jonathan From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jun 25 20:46:02 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 25 Jun 2018 20:46:02 -0500 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B319ADA.1070704@pico-systems.com> On 06/25/2018 04:20 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > All, > > A few months ago, I mentioned one of my suppliers had Belden 89880 thicknet > Ethernet cable. Well, last week I finally made it down to his warehouse and > picked it up! The final bits for a test segment came in today, so I set up > a little link between my SPARCstation 10 and DEChub 90: > > https://imgur.com/a/GDUR36j > > Wow,a blast from the past. You say the spool is heavy! Yes, I remember those, indeed they were plenty heavy. But, I'm glad we have 100 and 1000 mbit ethernet now, much better! Years ago I ran thinwire all through my house, now I have twisted pair. Jon From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 14:16:34 2018 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 15:16:34 -0400 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Hi folks, I know there's not much 6800 activity here, but I figure this would be worth a try. Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? I have a SWTPC replica system from Bob Applegate / Corsham Technologies, and I love it. It came with a complete 64K RAM, as well as the SWIBUG monitor, and the monitor code has been extended by Bob/Corsham to interface with an SD Card sub-system for floppy disk emulation. This provides the original terminal access to the machine with the simple system monitor, and also the FLEX OS for running programs. It is a blast to use. Recently, I took a look around and found the fig-FORTH listing as originally published back in 1979, and also a Source Forge site that holds an electronic copy: https://sourceforge.net/projects/asm...th_6800-stuff/ I've managed to get the source code to assemble with a cross-assembler supplied by Bob/Corsham. It does not produce an exact copy of the original code, because the code uses the JMP instruction pretty much exclusively, and the assembler substitutes a relative BRA instruction sometimes. So my code ends up being several bytes shorter because of saving one byte each time a JMP is replaced by a BRA. That said, it appears to me that the code matches up with the original listing otherwise. So my problem is this: When I run the code on my system, fig-FORTH seems to sign on, and will accept input from the keyboard (double echos of each key typed) but it then does not proceed to interpret the command entered. The interesting thing I see by winding my way around in the code is that it has already properly performed a bunch of setup and produces the initial "Forth-68" sign on, and that has required it to already be using many of the Forth commands that were defined by machine language. This indicates to me that some of the command interpretation is working. The I/O from/to the terminal is by calls to the system monitor I/O routines, and that seems to be also working, despite the double echos of the typed characters. It just does not proceed to interpret what is typed in at all. Of course, I have no idea if this code ever worked properly, or if I am encountering early buggy code. So I'm looking to see if anyone else has ever seen the fig-FORTH working on a 6800 system? Any pointers to good working code? Thanks for listening! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Jun 23 18:39:06 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2018 17:39:06 -0600 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Stephen Pereira via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? > In the mid-1980s I know someone with a WaveMate 6800 system. He had fig-Forth running on FLEX. At the time I was only interested in the Apple II, DEC PDP-10, and BSD 4.x on VAX, so I didn't pay much attention to his system. I had problems similar to what you describe when I was bringing up the PACE version of fig-Forth, and tracked down and fixed a serious bug in the published listing. AFAICT, I am the only person other than the author who ever ran the PACE version. I found it far easier to debug on a simulator rather than the real hardware. The 6800 version must surely have been far more popular than the PACE version, so it seems somewhat unlikely that there would be a huge defect in the published listing, but it's not impossible. I wrote some 68HC11 assembly professionally in the late 1980s, but the only actual 6800 code I've writen was a 6800 version of the Apple I monitor. Writing 6800 code after being used to the 68HC11 and 6809 was a huge step backward; I kept trying to use newer instructions and addressing modes that the 6800 did not have. I have a non-working Electronic Product Associates Micro 68; maybe someday I'll fix it up. Eric N2ES From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 19:52:31 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 00:52:31 +0000 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> References: , <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: The double characters is most likely how you set up you serial. Normally A Forth will echo your typing so you want to set it for duplex. You might look at the locations it uses for things like TIB, return stack and data stack. I suspect at least the return and data stack may be working but it is also possible your memory isn't fully decoded and you are over writing your code. It may not be seeing the right character for a end of line. Most expect a 0Dh and a 0Ah. check your serial setup for that as well. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Stephen Pereira via cctech Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 12:16:34 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? Hi folks, I know there's not much 6800 activity here, but I figure this would be worth a try. Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? I have a SWTPC replica system from Bob Applegate / Corsham Technologies, and I love it. It came with a complete 64K RAM, as well as the SWIBUG monitor, and the monitor code has been extended by Bob/Corsham to interface with an SD Card sub-system for floppy disk emulation. This provides the original terminal access to the machine with the simple system monitor, and also the FLEX OS for running programs. It is a blast to use. Recently, I took a look around and found the fig-FORTH listing as originally published back in 1979, and also a Source Forge site that holds an electronic copy: https://sourceforge.net/projects/asm...th_6800-stuff/ I've managed to get the source code to assemble with a cross-assembler supplied by Bob/Corsham. It does not produce an exact copy of the original code, because the code uses the JMP instruction pretty much exclusively, and the assembler substitutes a relative BRA instruction sometimes. So my code ends up being several bytes shorter because of saving one byte each time a JMP is replaced by a BRA. That said, it appears to me that the code matches up with the original listing otherwise. So my problem is this: When I run the code on my system, fig-FORTH seems to sign on, and will accept input from the keyboard (double echos of each key typed) but it then does not proceed to interpret the command entered. The interesting thing I see by winding my way around in the code is that it has already properly performed a bunch of setup and produces the initial "Forth-68" sign on, and that has required it to already be using many of the Forth commands that were defined by machine language. This indicates to me that some of the command interpretation is working. The I/O from/to the terminal is by calls to the system monitor I/O routines, and that seems to be also working, despite the double echos of the typed characters. It just does not proceed to interpret what is typed in at all. Of course, I have no idea if this code ever worked properly, or if I am encountering early buggy code. So I'm looking to see if anyone else has ever seen the fig-FORTH working on a 6800 system? Any pointers to good working code? Thanks for listening! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jun 23 20:19:05 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 01:19:05 +0000 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> References: , <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: I found a fig-forth listing at: http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-forth_6800.pdf I can see that it is waiting for a $0D. See the line after EXPEC3, label. If you have a monitor running, you should be able to check the TIB for the return character ( I'n not positive it doesn't trap it out first ). To help isolate the problem, when you hit enter does it continue to allow you to enter text and echo it or does it just die? I defeat the optimization, you can place a DB #0 after each JMP in the code. That will pad it to the original length and make checking a lot easier. I can help more as you progress. These original listings all were able to boot and execute an input line. They were known to have more hidden errors with operations like U> and such. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Stephen Pereira via cctech Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 12:16:34 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? Hi folks, I know there's not much 6800 activity here, but I figure this would be worth a try. Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? I have a SWTPC replica system from Bob Applegate / Corsham Technologies, and I love it. It came with a complete 64K RAM, as well as the SWIBUG monitor, and the monitor code has been extended by Bob/Corsham to interface with an SD Card sub-system for floppy disk emulation. This provides the original terminal access to the machine with the simple system monitor, and also the FLEX OS for running programs. It is a blast to use. Recently, I took a look around and found the fig-FORTH listing as originally published back in 1979, and also a Source Forge site that holds an electronic copy: https://sourceforge.net/projects/asm...th_6800-stuff/ I've managed to get the source code to assemble with a cross-assembler supplied by Bob/Corsham. It does not produce an exact copy of the original code, because the code uses the JMP instruction pretty much exclusively, and the assembler substitutes a relative BRA instruction sometimes. So my code ends up being several bytes shorter because of saving one byte each time a JMP is replaced by a BRA. That said, it appears to me that the code matches up with the original listing otherwise. So my problem is this: When I run the code on my system, fig-FORTH seems to sign on, and will accept input from the keyboard (double echos of each key typed) but it then does not proceed to interpret the command entered. The interesting thing I see by winding my way around in the code is that it has already properly performed a bunch of setup and produces the initial "Forth-68" sign on, and that has required it to already be using many of the Forth commands that were defined by machine language. This indicates to me that some of the command interpretation is working. The I/O from/to the terminal is by calls to the system monitor I/O routines, and that seems to be also working, despite the double echos of the typed characters. It just does not proceed to interpret what is typed in at all. Of course, I have no idea if this code ever worked properly, or if I am encountering early buggy code. So I'm looking to see if anyone else has ever seen the fig-FORTH working on a 6800 system? Any pointers to good working code? Thanks for listening! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 08:14:04 2018 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 09:14:04 -0400 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yes, after it signs on, I am in a state that anything I type is echoed. When I type a CR, the cursor goes back all the way to the left, as it should. If I type CTRL-J for LF, the cursor drops down 2 lines, as it should (because of the double echo). Thanks for the tip about inserting DB #0 after the JMPs that the assembler changes to BRAs. I?ll give that a try. smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Jun 23, 2018, at 9:19 PM, dwight wrote: > > I found a fig-forth listing at: > http://www.forth.org/fig-forth/fig-forth_6800.pdf > I can see that it is waiting for a $0D. See the line after EXPEC3, label. > If you have a monitor running, you should be able to check the TIB for the return character ( I'n not positive it doesn't trap it out first ). > To help isolate the problem, when you hit enter does it continue to allow you to enter text and echo it or does it just die? > I defeat the optimization, you can place a DB #0 after each JMP in the code. That will pad it to the original length and make checking a lot easier. > I can help more as you progress. These original listings all were able to boot and execute an input line. They were known to have more hidden errors with operations like U> and such. > Dwight > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Jun 24 15:00:27 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2018 22:00:27 +0200 Subject: Teketronix X11 terminals & XpressWare Message-ID: hi here it is a page (I am not the author) that summarizes about the 400s series unfortunately, they need XpressWare v8, which is rather impossible to be found. https://web-docs.gsi.de/~kraemer/COLLECTION/NCD/www.technogoths.demon.co.uk/tekxp400/node3.html#SECTION00031000000000000000 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 03:08:17 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 09:08:17 +0100 Subject: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 - Progress Message-ID: <03ac01d40d24$d78f6630$86ae3290$@gmail.com> Folks, Well I seem to be running around in circles. As it takes most of a weekend to back up the P390 because of various things, I decided there must be a quicker way. And there is! 1. Set up SD card in SCSI2SD as a single disk physical rather than split to match the config on the RAID array. I still have the same number of partitions but they are all on one LUN. 2. SD card can now all be seen by windows but as most partitions a HPFS I can't mount them but I can use MS's DISK2VHD to image the card. 3. Install OS/2 in a VirtualBox and I can now mount the HPFS partitions 4. ZIP up drives and FTP to NAS box. Both are on same gigabit LAN so its fast. So I can now back up the server in a morning. Just need to script it and test restore. Dave. From: Dave Wade Sent: 26 May 2018 21:16 To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 Folks, Well in case any one has the slightest bit of interest, I have now plugged the RAID card back in and after replacing on of the drive carriers I can get five of the six drives to spin up. Its now copying stuff to my Buffalo NAS but as its 10Mbit LAN its not terribly fast. I think the NAS isn't very fast either. It looks like zipping up the files and FTPing the ZIP files might be the quickest way to go. Dave From: Dave Wade > Sent: 18 May 2018 22:31 To: 'Benjamin Huntsman' >; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 I thought I had captioned that picture. It's the original RAID controller which I am not using. If I plug it in it starts the disks in the RAID array which takes ages, and steals the hard disk BIOS vector which I need for the SCSI card that's running the system. I didn't want to remove it fully as I need to label the cables feeding it. One feeds the top drive bays, and the other the bottom so if I ever need to put it back it I need to know which is which. If I get some free time I will have a go at starting the disks in it and repairing the RAID array, and perhaps copy the disks that are installed. Dave From: Benjamin Huntsman > Sent: 18 May 2018 21:49 To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 I gotta ask, what's the deal with the dangling card? That cracked me up! Thanks for posting some pics! _____ From: cctalk > on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk > Sent: Friday, May 18, 2018 1:46 PM To: 'Guy Sotomayor Jr'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > -----Original Message----- > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > > Sent: 15 May 2018 21:39 > To: Dave Wade >; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Restoring a PC Server 500 P/390 > > > > > On May 15, 2018, at 1:29 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk > > wrote: > > > > > > That's, in effect, what I did. Whilst there were Microchannel IDE Controllers > I have never seen one. There are no IDE interfaces on the "Planar" so every > thing must be on the MCA bus. > > So I bought a BusLogic BT646 SCSI card on E-Bay. I also bought an Adaptec > card as a spare. I think I struck lucky with the BT646. It is a simple SCSI/2 card, > no raid but it does have a BIOS with support for two bootable drives and a > >4GB drive option. > > OS/2 has drivers for it so it works out of the box. The OS/2 boot disks find > the drive and install the proper drivers. > > To compensate for the slower "narrow" drives I bought a SCSI2SD card that > puts an SD card on the bus. OS/2 just sees it as a up two four drives > depending on how I configure it. At present I have two 4gb drives. The card > in it is 32gb so I can add 2 x 12gb drives or 1 x 24gb or some other mix. The CD > ROM sites on the same bus. I haven't tried the tape drive yet.. > > > Well I found an XGA2 card in the pile of bits so now I have 1024x768 display resolution. I have swapped the CDROM for a SCSI DVD drive. I managed to boot MTS and there are a few pics here:- https://flic.kr/s/aHsmc1pkB1 P390 flic.kr Explore this photo album by Dave G4UGM on Flickr! next job is to tidy up and re-assemble the case.. Dave > Some time ago I acquired a PCI P/390 card (along with the various LIC files). I > went down the same path as you to build a P/390 system with OS/2 but I > kept running into problems with OS/2 versions and supported hardware. > > I finally gave up and acquired a PCI based RS/6000 that I'll install AIX on and > have an R/390. ;-) I haven't had the time yet to make any progress on it. > > But it's good to know that you've managed to do this if I decide to go back > and attempt the PC route again. > > TTFN - Guy From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 06:25:28 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:25:28 +0000 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 06/23/2018 07:39 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Stephen Pereira via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? >> > In the mid-1980s I know someone with a WaveMate 6800 system. He had > fig-Forth running on FLEX. At the time I was only interested in the Apple > II, DEC PDP-10, and BSD 4.x on VAX, so I didn't pay much attention to his > system. > > I had problems similar to what you describe when I was bringing up the PACE > version of fig-Forth, and tracked down and fixed a serious bug in the > published listing. AFAICT, I am the only person other than the author who > ever ran the PACE version. I found it far easier to debug on a simulator > rather than the real hardware. > > The 6800 version must surely have been far more popular than the PACE > version, so it seems somewhat unlikely that there would be a huge defect in > the published listing, but it's not impossible. > > I wrote some 68HC11 assembly professionally in the late 1980s, but the only > actual 6800 code I've writen was a 6800 version of the Apple I monitor. > Writing 6800 code after being used to the 68HC11 and 6809 was a huge step > backward; I kept trying to use newer instructions and addressing modes that > the 6800 did not have. I have a non-working Electronic Product Associates > Micro 68; maybe someday I'll fix it up. > > I never had a 6800 in those days, but I had a friend who did.? He had it running on his.? I think I still have the documentation laying around here somewhere. bill From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 07:54:19 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 14:54:19 +0200 Subject: SGI Silicon Graphics Phobos G160 for Indigo2 Impact Message-ID: hi I have for sale, qty=1, SGI Silicon Graphics Phobos G160 for Indigo2 Impact brand new, still closed in the box, unopened! located in Italy (in my parent's house) I will be happy to give it a new home From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 08:37:59 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 13:37:59 +0000 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Things were posted a little out of order. The problem was not in the original listing. The pdf of the original was correct. The ascii text one, at sourceforge, had a single error in it. Anyway, there may be other types of errors in the original but they don't stop the interpreter or compiler from running. The original 8080 listing had 3 or 4 such errors. These were mostly related to the logical magnitude comparison operations, as I recall. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bill Gunshannon via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, June 26, 2018 4:25:28 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 6800 fig-FORTH? On 06/23/2018 07:39 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jun 23, 2018 at 1:16 PM, Stephen Pereira via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Has anyone here ever seen or ever had fig-FORTH for the 6800 working? >> > In the mid-1980s I know someone with a WaveMate 6800 system. He had > fig-Forth running on FLEX. At the time I was only interested in the Apple > II, DEC PDP-10, and BSD 4.x on VAX, so I didn't pay much attention to his > system. > > I had problems similar to what you describe when I was bringing up the PACE > version of fig-Forth, and tracked down and fixed a serious bug in the > published listing. AFAICT, I am the only person other than the author who > ever ran the PACE version. I found it far easier to debug on a simulator > rather than the real hardware. > > The 6800 version must surely have been far more popular than the PACE > version, so it seems somewhat unlikely that there would be a huge defect in > the published listing, but it's not impossible. > > I wrote some 68HC11 assembly professionally in the late 1980s, but the only > actual 6800 code I've writen was a 6800 version of the Apple I monitor. > Writing 6800 code after being used to the 68HC11 and 6809 was a huge step > backward; I kept trying to use newer instructions and addressing modes that > the 6800 did not have. I have a non-working Electronic Product Associates > Micro 68; maybe someday I'll fix it up. > > I never had a 6800 in those days, but I had a friend who did. He had it running on his. I think I still have the documentation laying around here somewhere. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 08:44:36 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 13:44:36 +0000 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 06/26/2018 09:37 AM, dwight wrote: Things were posted a little out of order. The problem was not in the original listing. The pdf of the original was correct. The ascii text one, at sourceforge, had a single error in it. Anyway, there may be other types of errors in the original but they don't stop the interpreter or compiler from running. The original 8080 listing had 3 or 4 such errors. These were mostly related to the logical magnitude comparison operations, as I recall. Dwight ________________________________ I should add that I have used the PDP-11 one and it works perfectly. (At least as far as I can tell, I never did anything beyond the trivial as I am not a Forth Programmer. But I was looking into OpenPROM at one time and that was Forth based.) bill From nf6x at nf6x.net Tue Jun 26 11:31:00 2018 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 09:31:00 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> > On Jun 25, 2018, at 2:20 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I do have a very > few NOS Cabletron ST-500-01 transceiver/non-intrusive tap kits as well. What does non-intrusive mean in this context? I thought that thick ethernet taps always required drilling a hole in the cable. -- Mark J. Blair http://www.nf6x.net/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 11:38:50 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 12:38:50 -0400 Subject: 6800 fig-FORTH? In-Reply-To: References: <226BE11B-5BE7-42E2-9F2C-1F3B161E1E20@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 26, 2018, at 9:44 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > > On 06/26/2018 09:37 AM, dwight wrote: > > Things were posted a little out of order. The problem was not in the original listing. The pdf of the original was correct. The ascii text one, at sourceforge, had a single error in it. > > Anyway, there may be other types of errors in the original but they don't stop the interpreter or compiler from running. > > The original 8080 listing had 3 or 4 such errors. These were mostly related to the logical magnitude comparison operations, as I recall. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > > > I should add that I have used the PDP-11 one and it works perfectly. > (At least as far as I can tell, I never did anything beyond the trivial as > I am not a Forth Programmer. But I was looking into OpenPROM at > one time and that was Forth based.) I used PDP-11 Fig-FORTH as the basis for the FORTH RTS that's in RSTS V10 as an unsupported item. That one has a number of extensions in it. I thought some were taken from ANSI Forth, but I can't find that in the edit history. Did the RSTS FORTH source get posted? I vaguely remember doing that a while ago. It certainly can be done; the code is marked "Public domain". If not, I can supply it, if someone has a good place to save it. I used this one to create an interactive system dump analyzer inspired by VMS's SDA, called SDA.FTH. It's rather large -- 4600 lines. Worked very nicely. One thing I enjoyed is that I could redefine everything, so while the standard Forth arithmetic operators are 16 bit ones, SDA exposes a different set which operate on 32 bit values (for dealing with 22 bit PDP-11 physical addresses). paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 26 12:04:20 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 11:04:20 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 06/26/2018 10:31 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > What does non-intrusive mean in this context? I thought that thick > ethernet taps always required drilling a hole in the cable. There are taps that screw onto the N connectors. Thus you have to intrusively disconnect segments, to insert the (so called) tap. Conversely, you can drill / clamp / tap onto live segments in a non-intrusive manner. My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form. I always thought there was a different name for the first form. But I believe they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more popular. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 12:13:51 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 13:13:51 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <90BAB87A-8D67-44E5-94F8-FA80B5E1ED6D@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/26/2018 10:31 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >> What does non-intrusive mean in this context? I thought that thick ethernet taps always required drilling a hole in the cable. > > There are taps that screw onto the N connectors. Thus you have to intrusively disconnect segments, to insert the (so called) tap. > > Conversely, you can drill / clamp / tap onto live segments in a non-intrusive manner. > > My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form. I always thought there was a different name for the first form. But I believe they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more popular. I don't remember seeing the "insert between N connectors" type. "Tap" to me means a DEC H4000 "vampire tap", and yes, those use a drill to install. That should be non-disruptive if done correctly. I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke through the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because the cable was too tough to penetrate without it. Maybe a side effect of switching to Teflon flame-resistant insulation. Early prototype cable seemed to be polyethylene, with a bright yellow outer jacket with black stripes marking the tap spacing. That might have been softer and suitable for no-drill tapping. paul From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 12:19:35 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 10:19:35 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> On 06/26/2018 10:04 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form.? I always > thought there was a different name for the first form.? But I believe > they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more > popular. My impression from the old days of this system was that the so-called "vampire taps" were superior in that they caused less of an impedance "bump" when attached, as compared to the cut-and-connector-only type. Perhaps that's not true--can anyone verify this? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 12:36:08 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 13:36:08 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2A500341-BFC5-450D-9D0D-39E84F40D4E2@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/26/2018 10:04 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form. I always >> thought there was a different name for the first form. But I believe >> they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more >> popular. > > My impression from the old days of this system was that the so-called > "vampire taps" were superior in that they caused less of an impedance > "bump" when attached, as compared to the cut-and-connector-only type. > > Perhaps that's not true--can anyone verify this? I haven't heard that, and it sounds questionable. All taps are impedance bumps because they attach a stub to the cable. The spec limits the length of that stub for this reason. But N connectors are constant-impedance types, in RF service rated up into the GHz range, so the connectors should certainly not be an issue. If a cut type "tap" were designed as a substantial size PCB with a connector at each end and wires (rather than transmission line) in between, that would certainly be bad, but that's just an example of the fact that you have to use transmission line design techniques when dealing with transmission lines. A cut design could allow for shorter stubs than is mechanically feasible with a vampire tap, so if anything it would seem that the cut design has the potential of being better. But it doesn't really matter; a correctly built vampire tap installed properly will give you a compliant Ethernet, and a thicknet segment can be quite large because the design was done so carefully. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 13:20:29 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 14:20:29 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <2A500341-BFC5-450D-9D0D-39E84F40D4E2@comcast.net> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> <2A500341-BFC5-450D-9D0D-39E84F40D4E2@comcast.net> Message-ID: The intrusive part does indeed refer to the "intrusive to continued service" aspect (e.g. cutting the line, crimping new ends...or at best unscrewing the N connectors and removing a coupler fitting). I'm not sure about the lesser insertion loss/impedance bump of vampire taps vs. N connectors, but the vampire taps almost certainly make it much simpler to keep the taps at 2.5 meter intervals, thus lessening the "stacking up" effect of reflections from the small impedance bumps of the taps. Interestingly, Cabletron even calls the ST-500-02, which comes with a BNC adapter, a "tap." This "tap" gets tee'd in to a 10base2/thinnet run like any other thinnet card. The N type tap seems to be the least common, at least judging by surplus channels. Which is kind of weird when you think about it -- you'd sort of expect that most vampire taps were abandoned in place, on the cable they were installed on. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 1:36 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 26, 2018, at 1:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 06/26/2018 10:04 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > >> My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form. I always > >> thought there was a different name for the first form. But I believe > >> they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more > >> popular. > > > > My impression from the old days of this system was that the so-called > > "vampire taps" were superior in that they caused less of an impedance > > "bump" when attached, as compared to the cut-and-connector-only type. > > > > Perhaps that's not true--can anyone verify this? > > I haven't heard that, and it sounds questionable. All taps are impedance > bumps because they attach a stub to the cable. The spec limits the length > of that stub for this reason. But N connectors are constant-impedance > types, in RF service rated up into the GHz range, so the connectors should > certainly not be an issue. > > If a cut type "tap" were designed as a substantial size PCB with a > connector at each end and wires (rather than transmission line) in between, > that would certainly be bad, but that's just an example of the fact that > you have to use transmission line design techniques when dealing with > transmission lines. > > A cut design could allow for shorter stubs than is mechanically feasible > with a vampire tap, so if anything it would seem that the cut design has > the potential of being better. But it doesn't really matter; a correctly > built vampire tap installed properly will give you a compliant Ethernet, > and a thicknet segment can be quite large because the design was done so > carefully. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jun 26 13:37:51 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 14:37:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! Message-ID: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke through > the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because the > cable was too tough to penetrate without it. No, the original 3 Mbit Ethernet also used a 'drill' (actually, a cylindrical cutter which screwed into the thread of the tap housing; threading which was then used to screw in the transceiver). Anyway, there has to be a hole cut _through_ the cylindrical ground layer (foil, or woven wire) around the center conductor. If you just stuck a probe into the cable to the center conductor, it would short it out. Noel From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 13:50:07 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 14:50:07 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Indeed, the AMP coring tool is more a cutter than a drill, and it doesn't go all the way to the center conductor, which would short out the segment as the cutter is metallic. It doesn't screw in though, it has a shoulder that stops on the seating surface of the vampire tap body. I don't know if this is consistent with the original 3 mbit Ethernet, as I've never worked with that. The "stinger" contact gets screwed into the threaded hole in the vampire tap body. Some AMP literature refers to the stinger as being spring loaded, but none of mine are, and I don't think any of the ones from CCNA days were either. The shaft of the stinger contact is insulated, only the very tip is bare. The tip is finished in a sharp conical point, which penetrates the last little bit of the foamed dielectric and actually makes contact with the center conductor. I don't know how far it penetrates into the copper, I suspect it just displaces a small divot around itself. Cutting/coring is absolutely necessary to get through the quad shield ground layer on real Belden 9880 or 89880 Ethernet coax. It's tough stuff. I have to comb out the outer braid and cut the first foil layer to get the inner braid to open enough for the N connector to seat! In case anyone was wondering about the color and designation, the yellow coax is typically Belden 9880 and is non-plenum, whereas the orange stuff I have is Belden 89880 plenum rated cable. If I had better video-recording equipment, I'd make a video of the N connector crimping and tap installation process. I think it'd be easier to demonstrate that way. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Paul Koning > > > I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke > through > > the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because the > > cable was too tough to penetrate without it. > > No, the original 3 Mbit Ethernet also used a 'drill' (actually, a > cylindrical > cutter which screwed into the thread of the tap housing; threading which > was > then used to screw in the transceiver). > > Anyway, there has to be a hole cut _through_ the cylindrical ground layer > (foil, or woven wire) around the center conductor. If you just stuck a > probe > into the cable to the center conductor, it would short it out. > > Noel > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:07:49 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:07:49 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I've confirmed that I now have N connector intrusive taps! These have a N female connector on each end, like the leftmost transceiver in this picture: https://oelzant.priv.at/~aoe/images/galleries/hardware/802_3_transceivers/DSC_0927_med.jpg I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. In any case, I've got 40 of the things now, which makes a lot of the existing transceiver surplus (usually missing the tap) useful again! Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:50 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > Indeed, the AMP coring tool is more a cutter than a drill, and it doesn't > go all the way to the center conductor, which would short out the segment > as the cutter is metallic. It doesn't screw in though, it has a shoulder > that stops on the seating surface of the vampire tap body. I don't know if > this is consistent with the original 3 mbit Ethernet, as I've never worked > with that. > > The "stinger" contact gets screwed into the threaded hole in the vampire > tap body. Some AMP literature refers to the stinger as being spring loaded, > but none of mine are, and I don't think any of the ones from CCNA days were > either. The shaft of the stinger contact is insulated, only the very tip is > bare. The tip is finished in a sharp conical point, which penetrates the > last little bit of the foamed dielectric and actually makes contact with > the center conductor. I don't know how far it penetrates into the copper, I > suspect it just displaces a small divot around itself. > > Cutting/coring is absolutely necessary to get through the quad shield > ground layer on real Belden 9880 or 89880 Ethernet coax. It's tough stuff. > I have to comb out the outer braid and cut the first foil layer to get the > inner braid to open enough for the N connector to seat! > > In case anyone was wondering about the color and designation, the yellow > coax is typically Belden 9880 and is non-plenum, whereas the orange stuff I > have is Belden 89880 plenum rated cable. > > If I had better video-recording equipment, I'd make a video of the N > connector crimping and tap installation process. I think it'd be easier to > demonstrate that way. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > From: Paul Koning >> >> > I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke >> through >> > the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because >> the >> > cable was too tough to penetrate without it. >> >> No, the original 3 Mbit Ethernet also used a 'drill' (actually, a >> cylindrical >> cutter which screwed into the thread of the tap housing; threading which >> was >> then used to screw in the transceiver). >> >> Anyway, there has to be a hole cut _through_ the cylindrical ground layer >> (foil, or woven wire) around the center conductor. If you just stuck a >> probe >> into the cable to the center conductor, it would short it out. >> >> Noel >> > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 14:16:40 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:16:40 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4439714F-B488-4549-9812-C9829EF5F227@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 3:07 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > I've confirmed that I now have N connector intrusive taps! These have a N > female connector on each end, like the leftmost transceiver in this picture: > > https://oelzant.priv.at/~aoe/images/galleries/hardware/802_3_transceivers/DSC_0927_med.jpg > > I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really > supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know > if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. I'm not sure if I understood that correctly. It sounds flat out wrong, and it presumably would not be general practice because an Ethernet segment with a missing terminator either doesn't work at all, or works very poorly. An Ethernet segment must have a 50 ohm terminator at each end (and nowhere else). Always. The spec is crystal clear about this, and so is elementary transmission line physics. If you have an intrusive (connectorized) tap, installed at the very end of the cable, the other side of the tap must have a terminator since that's the end of the segment. I once saw an article in a magazine ("DEC Professional" or "RSTS Professional", a US based rag for PDP11 users) that talked about thick and thin Ethernet. It mentioned that you can connect the two -- which is correct. But it showed the wrong way -- with a T connector and a terminator attached to one of the legs of the T. In other words, a "terminator" in the MIDDLE of the segment. The correct way, of course, is a BNC to N adapter, and you have to use the thin Ethernet length and station limits. So it sounds like your instructor was just as ignorant as the writers of that magazine. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:23:25 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:23:25 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 3:07 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I've confirmed that I now have N connector intrusive taps! These have a N > female connector on each end, like the leftmost transceiver in this picture: > > https://oelzant.priv.at/~aoe/images/galleries/hardware/802_3_transceivers/DSC_0927_med.jpg Handy. I'll have to get some pictures this weekend of the stuff I've collected so far. I have 1-2 of the ST-500-01 Transceivers with the non-intrusive taps, and 4-5 of what I am pretty sure now are called ST-500-02 Transceivers, with a single male BNC sticking up where the ST-500-01 has the tap "fang". I'm now thinking for the cost of a few BNC-to-N couplers (couple of bucks from banggood.com) and a one BNC T each (of which I have an abundance), it might be cheapest to get the ST-500-02 acting like an intrusive tap. It might not meet the spec for a full-sized network, but for a 15-20m segment, I can't imagine it's going to break things. It's probably not a terrible thing to get some of the cable, cut it into some 5m segments and terminate the ends with N connectors. Yes, there will be impedance bumps at every joint, but I'm not trying to run 100m, just a segment I can set up somewhere to show how it was once done. Fortunately, I also have an abundance of DEC and desktop hosts with 15-pin AUI as an option (as well as a 10BaseT hub with an AUI, that's at the center of my low-speed network at home). > I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really > supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know > if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. I think the reason is you won't have enough distance between the tap and the endpoint of the transmission line. -ethan From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:26:36 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:26:36 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <4439714F-B488-4549-9812-C9829EF5F227@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4439714F-B488-4549-9812-C9829EF5F227@comcast.net> Message-ID: (re-send due to not reply-all'ing as required) Sorry, I think that came across wrong due to my wording -- we were told it wasn't general practice to screw the terminator directly to the intrusive tap, as you would with a BNC tee on thinnet. We were told to use a jumper to extend somewhat past the tap, if it was the last thing on the segment. Ethan sneaked in a reply that mentions a lack of distance between the last tap's impedance bump and the end of the transmission line. Perhaps someone with more of a transmission line engineering background can confirm or deny that. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 3:16 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > On Jun 26, 2018, at 3:07 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I've confirmed that I now have N connector intrusive taps! These have a N > > female connector on each end, like the leftmost transceiver in this > picture: > > > > https://oelzant.priv.at/~aoe/images/galleries/hardware/802_ > 3_transceivers/DSC_0927_med.jpg > > > > I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really > > supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know > > if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. > > I'm not sure if I understood that correctly. It sounds flat out wrong, > and it presumably would not be general practice because an Ethernet segment > with a missing terminator either doesn't work at all, or works very poorly. > > An Ethernet segment must have a 50 ohm terminator at each end (and nowhere > else). Always. The spec is crystal clear about this, and so is elementary > transmission line physics. > > If you have an intrusive (connectorized) tap, installed at the very end of > the cable, the other side of the tap must have a terminator since that's > the end of the segment. > > I once saw an article in a magazine ("DEC Professional" or "RSTS > Professional", a US based rag for PDP11 users) that talked about thick and > thin Ethernet. It mentioned that you can connect the two -- which is > correct. But it showed the wrong way -- with a T connector and a > terminator attached to one of the legs of the T. In other words, a > "terminator" in the MIDDLE of the segment. The correct way, of course, is > a BNC to N adapter, and you have to use the thin Ethernet length and > station limits. > > So it sounds like your instructor was just as ignorant as the writers of > that magazine. > > paul > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 14:27:52 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:27:52 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <7D2E29CE-B304-47D7-8B38-533EB4E86E61@comcast.net> > On Jun 26, 2018, at 3:23 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 3:07 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk > wrote: >> ... > >> I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really >> supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know >> if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. > > I think the reason is you won't have enough distance between the tap > and the endpoint of the transmission line. Maybe that was the thinking, but if so that is simply wrong. Ethernets are terminated at both ends (as is any transmission line), independent of the cable length, and the presence of taps is entirely irrelevant to this. paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:30:46 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 19:30:46 +0000 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <90BAB87A-8D67-44E5-94F8-FA80B5E1ED6D@comcast.net> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <90BAB87A-8D67-44E5-94F8-FA80B5E1ED6D@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 06/26/2018 01:13 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jun 26, 2018, at 1:04 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 06/26/2018 10:31 AM, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: >>> What does non-intrusive mean in this context? I thought that thick ethernet taps always required drilling a hole in the cable. >> There are taps that screw onto the N connectors. Thus you have to intrusively disconnect segments, to insert the (so called) tap. >> >> Conversely, you can drill / clamp / tap onto live segments in a non-intrusive manner. >> >> My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form. I always thought there was a different name for the first form. But I believe they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more popular. > I don't remember seeing the "insert between N connectors" type. "Tap" to me means a DEC H4000 "vampire tap", and yes, those use a drill to install. That should be non-disruptive if done correctly. > > I believe the original concept was just a probe that would poke through the cable to contact the center connector. The drill came because the cable was too tough to penetrate without it. Not to mention the fact that if you just shoved a pin from the outside to the center conductor you were bound to create a short between the shield and center conductor. > Maybe a side effect of switching to Teflon flame-resistant insulation. Early prototype cable seemed to be polyethylene, with a bright yellow outer jacket with black stripes marking the tap spacing. That might have been softer and suitable for no-drill tapping. > I have never seen taps that could be installed without drilling. By the way, I still have my drill.? :-) bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Tue Jun 26 14:31:36 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 19:31:36 +0000 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> References: <6B693227-A038-44CB-8E43-BB50C2D35392@nf6x.net> <8a25df8d-bc13-8805-a85f-c588853d3d1a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <73e3809c-ab77-b0d4-3aa9-a62b29b953e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 06/26/2018 01:19 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 06/26/2018 10:04 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> My assumption was that "tap" comes from the second form.? I always >> thought there was a different name for the first form.? But I believe >> they were less common, hence fall under the "tap" term which is more >> popular. > My impression from the old days of this system was that the so-called > "vampire taps" were superior in that they caused less of an impedance > "bump" when attached, as compared to the cut-and-connector-only type. > > Perhaps that's not true--can anyone verify this? > All taps show up clearly on a TDR. bill From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 26 17:15:08 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 16:15:08 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 06/26/2018 01:07 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > I seem to recall the CCNA instructor telling us that you weren't really > supposed to screw a 50 ohm terminator onto an intrusive tap; I don't know > if there's good reason for it or if it was just a general practice. I'm taking that to mean that the terminator shouldn't be placed immediately adjacent to an intrusive tap. Or rather that you should have some length of cable between the intrusive tap and the terminator. I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or weakens the signal too much in some way. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 17:37:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 15:37:34 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or > weakens the signal too much in some way. Exactly what would the effect be? I recall putting terminators on 10base2 coax just hanging off one leg of a BNC tee. Really, no distance at all. Didn't seem to affect speed or distance. --CHuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 18:20:04 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 17:20:04 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > > I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or > > weakens the signal too much in some way. > > Exactly what would the effect be? I recall putting terminators on > 10base2 coax just hanging off one leg of a BNC tee. Really, no distance > at all. Didn't seem to affect speed or distance. If the termination resistance matches the characteristic impedance of the cable, there should be no difference. When terminated properly, there is no reflection from the terminator, so it looks equivalent to an infinitely long cable, though in practical terms with less leakage than an "actual" infinitely long cable would have. Of course, in reality it will never be terminated perfectly, so there will always be a small reflection, which can be seen with a TDR. If the termination resistance is pretty close, the reflection will be small enough not to matter at all for Ethernet. From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Jun 26 19:02:50 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 20:02:50 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 26, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or >>> weakens the signal too much in some way. >> >> Exactly what would the effect be? I recall putting terminators on >> 10base2 coax just hanging off one leg of a BNC tee. Really, no distance >> at all. Didn't seem to affect speed or distance. > > > If the termination resistance matches the characteristic impedance of the > cable, there should be no difference. When terminated properly, there is no > reflection from the terminator, so it looks equivalent to an infinitely > long cable, though in practical terms with less leakage than an "actual" > infinitely long cable would have. > > Of course, in reality it will never be terminated perfectly, so there will > always be a small reflection, which can be seen with a TDR. If the > termination resistance is pretty close, the reflection will be small enough > not to matter at all for Ethernet. Exactly. And the specs for the Ethernet terminator are quite tight for that reason. The connectors themselves have non-zero impact but very small; they are high quality microwave grade connectors. You got the definition precisely correct: a terminator is a device that is electrically equivalent to an infinite length cable. You can cut the unused part of a coax anywhere you want and put a terminator at that point instead, and as far as the rest of the cable is concerned nothing has changed (apart from very small effects because the components are not perfect). There clearly is confusion about what terminators are and how they work. It's all perfectly straightforward elementary classic E & M, and any halfway decent RF theory textbook will make things clear. Even a source as elementary as the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook will serve. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jun 26 19:46:04 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 20:46:04 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: So then we're in agreement that screwing the N terminator directly to an intrusive tap shouldn't make a difference? No need for a jumper off the end of the tap for the terminator to live on? As a high school CCNA hopeful, I accepted this as, "it's what you do," and I hadn't really given it any thought since then, as I hadn't had to mess with thicknet since then. I agree that it doesn't really make sense when you actually *think* about it, and, like I said to start with, it's what I recall being told back then anyway -- I could be remembering wrong to start with :) Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 26, 2018, at 7:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 4:37 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >> On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or > >>> weakens the signal too much in some way. > >> > >> Exactly what would the effect be? I recall putting terminators on > >> 10base2 coax just hanging off one leg of a BNC tee. Really, no distance > >> at all. Didn't seem to affect speed or distance. > > > > > > If the termination resistance matches the characteristic impedance of the > > cable, there should be no difference. When terminated properly, there is > no > > reflection from the terminator, so it looks equivalent to an infinitely > > long cable, though in practical terms with less leakage than an "actual" > > infinitely long cable would have. > > > > Of course, in reality it will never be terminated perfectly, so there > will > > always be a small reflection, which can be seen with a TDR. If the > > termination resistance is pretty close, the reflection will be small > enough > > not to matter at all for Ethernet. > > Exactly. And the specs for the Ethernet terminator are quite tight for > that reason. The connectors themselves have non-zero impact but very > small; they are high quality microwave grade connectors. > > You got the definition precisely correct: a terminator is a device that is > electrically equivalent to an infinite length cable. You can cut the > unused part of a coax anywhere you want and put a terminator at that point > instead, and as far as the rest of the cable is concerned nothing has > changed (apart from very small effects because the components are not > perfect). > > There clearly is confusion about what terminators are and how they work. > It's all perfectly straightforward elementary classic E & M, and any > halfway decent RF theory textbook will make things clear. Even a source as > elementary as the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook will serve. > > paul > > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jun 26 20:56:15 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 18:56:15 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> On 06/26/2018 05:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There clearly is confusion about what terminators are and how they > work. It's all perfectly straightforward elementary classic E & M, > and any halfway decent RF theory textbook will make things clear. > Even a source as elementary as the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook will > serve. Thanks, that's what I thought--a purely resistive (well nearly so) terminator that matches the characteristic impedance of the transmission line shouldn't matter at all where it's located, assuming that the line itself is matched to the source. So where did the "leave extra line before the terminator" came from? --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jun 26 21:13:54 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 21:13:54 -0500 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> On 06/26/2018 06:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>> I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or >>> weakens the signal too much in some way. >> No, I think it may have something to do with properly detecting all collisions. There are a whole bunch of special cases, where short packets have crossed in the middle of a segment. This causes a collision at the nodes in the center of the segment, but the nodes at the ends see their own transmissions without interference. Possibly, having the terminator too close to (one of) the sending nodes might make this detection less reliable. Hmmm, but really, anything that goes past the last tap toward the terminator ought to just DISAPPEAR, so that the length beyond the tap should not matter. Jon From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jun 26 23:03:40 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 26 Jun 2018 22:03:40 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 06/26/2018 06:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There clearly is confusion about what terminators are and how they work. > It's all perfectly straightforward elementary classic E & M, and any > halfway decent RF theory textbook will make things clear. Even a source > as elementary as the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook will serve. I wouldn't call it "confusion" on my part. I'd choose "ignorance" and I believe it's more accurate, at least for me. Coming from nearly 20 years of networking and many colleagues that did things because they were told without asking, these types of minutia, yet important, details get lost. I've got to say that I think a hybrid of computers and amateur radio is a wonderful thing. Especially when training for one crosses over and supports the other. Throw in a healthy dose of DC & AC (low Hz RF) and I think you've got a winning combination. Certainly more than the sum of the parts. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Jun 27 06:11:11 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:11:11 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01QU7A84QUIS000MYB@beyondthepale.ie> What an amazing conversation. Where else would anyone go to get such an animated and in depth discussion on the finest details of the theory and practice of installing thickwire ethernet! Are we geeks or what :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Wed Jun 27 06:46:50 2018 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 04:46:50 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: <12784307-A77B-4C35-88E6-F1EC1D6DC0B3@donaldwhittemore.com> The whole collection went to Computer Museum of America in Roswell, GA https://computermuseumofamerica.org/ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jun 27 07:56:24 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 08:56:24 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! Message-ID: <20180627125624.E4A6B18C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > the AMP coring tool ... doesn't screw in though ... I don't know if this > is consistent with the original 3 mbit Ethernet, as I've never worked > with that. I was speaking of the gear used on the 3 Mbit. I don't recall the 10 Mbit stuff at all.... I have this vague memory that the 3 Mbit cutter also had a shoulder stop that prevented one going too deep. Noel From peters-cctech at techwiz.ca Wed Jun 27 08:08:41 2018 From: peters-cctech at techwiz.ca (Peter Sjoberg) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 09:08:41 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! - termination In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9196f63d-a236-4040-ee1f-f3362a8f39e7@techwiz.ca> On 2018-06-26 08:02 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > There clearly is confusion about what terminators are and how they work. It's all perfectly straightforward elementary classic E & M, and any halfway decent RF theory textbook will make things clear. Even a source as elementary as the ARRL Radio Amateur Handbook will serve. > > paul And if you want to see the reflection on a scope or so you can look at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8GMH7vMAsQ . That is a follow up to the theoretical explanation given at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rN9zjVK3Nrk ------------------------------------------------------------------- Techwiz, Peter Sjoberg GPG key (42DDDDDD) on keyserver & homepage Key fingerprint =? EB81 3135 1636 576A DA83? 826B 2455 0E88 42DD DDDD Homepage: http://www.techwiz.ca/~peters Pictures: http://www.flickr.com/photos/henahadu/ Enigma: http://meinEnigma.com/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 27 08:18:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 09:18:41 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Jun 26, 2018, at 10:13 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/26/2018 06:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >>>> I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or >>>> weakens the signal too much in some way. >>> > No, I think it may have something to do with properly detecting all collisions. There are a whole bunch of special cases, where short packets have crossed in the middle of a segment. This causes a collision at the nodes in the center of the segment, but the nodes at the ends see their own transmissions without interference. Possibly, having the terminator too close to (one of) the sending nodes might make this detection less reliable. Hmmm, but really, anything that goes past the last tap toward the terminator ought to just DISAPPEAR, so that the length beyond the tap should not matter. It's clear to me: the person making the claim to Jonathan simply didn't know enough EE to understand that his statement was invalid. No, the terminator placement has nothing to do with it. Collision detect is a very simple process: it involves measuring the signal on the wire and comparing that with what the transceiver is currently sending. If the two differ by enough, it means another sender is active at the same time. There are no special cases in this. Proper collision detection depends on the segment length rule and the minimum packet length. If you run the numbers, you will see that the minimum packet length and max segment length were chosen to ensure that a collision between two stations, at opposite end of a max length cable, will be detected by both senders. If you violate either limit by a significant amount this will no longer be true, and you've reduced the system to basically Aloha, which works fine at low load but maxes out at 16% of wire rate, or thereabouts. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 11:36:24 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 10:36:24 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jun 26, 2018 at 8:13 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 06/26/2018 06:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > >> On 06/26/2018 03:15 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I can only guess that having a terminator too close interferes with or >>>> weakens the signal too much in some way. >>>> >>> >>> No, I think it may have something to do with properly detecting all > collisions. There are a whole bunch of special cases, where short packets > have crossed in the middle of a segment. This causes a collision at the > nodes in the center of the segment, but the nodes at the ends see their own > transmissions without interference. Collision detection was the reason (or at least _a_ reason) why the spacing of taps on the 10BASE-5 "thick" Ethernet cable was required to be an exact multiple of 2.5m. It was never clear to me why this was not also a requirement for 10BASE-2 "thin" Ethernet. > Possibly, having the terminator too close to (one of) the sending nodes > might make this detection less reliable. Hmmm, but really, anything that > goes past the last tap toward the terminator ought to just DISAPPEAR, so > that the length beyond the tap should not matter. Yes. I don't recall that that 10BASE-5 had any restrictions on the length between the last tap and the terminator. Ethernet trivia: the DIX Ethernet standard (predecessor of IEEE 802.3) would have used a 20 Mbps data rate, but the available CRC-32 chips didn't run that fast. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 27 11:59:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 12:59:41 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <722D9C4E-9DCD-430C-9B3E-5098D20CEDF7@comcast.net> > On Jun 27, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Collision detection was the reason (or at least _a_ reason) why the spacing > of taps on the 10BASE-5 "thick" Ethernet cable was required to be an exact > multiple of 2.5m. It was never clear to me why this was not also a > requirement for 10BASE-2 "thin" Ethernet. Yes, to avoid false alarms. The purpose of the spacing rule is to ensure that there is enough signal integrity that you do not get spurious collision indications due to reflections off the impedance variations along the cable. On a segment with few transceivers, there is enough margin that the rule doesn't matter. This is why 10Base-2 doesn't have that rule: the station count limit is low enough that it isn't needed. A tap is a stub, and on a transmission line a stub is an impedance change -- a small one if the stub is short in proportion to the wavelength. Similarly, connectors will show up as small bumps because the devices aren't ideal. If these bumps are spaced at multiples of the wavelength, the reflections that occur at any impedance variation will combine to form larger reflections. If enough of these add up, the reflected signal can appear like another transmitter to the collision sense circuitry. So the spacing rule (for taps) and the cable section length recommendations (distance between connectors) are both set to place these perturbations at points that are NOT multiples of the wavelength or small fractions thereof. (Sometimes people say that the spacing rule is there to place things at multiples of the wavelength; that is exactly backwards.) So the spacing rule doesn't have anything to do with detecting real collisions, but it is necessary to ensure no false collosions. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 12:45:44 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 11:45:44 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <722D9C4E-9DCD-430C-9B3E-5098D20CEDF7@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> <722D9C4E-9DCD-430C-9B3E-5098D20CEDF7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Jun 27, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Collision detection was the reason (or at least _a_ reason) why the > spacing > > of taps on the 10BASE-5 "thick" Ethernet cable was required to be an > exact > > multiple of 2.5m. It was never clear to me why this was not also a > > requirement for 10BASE-2 "thin" Ethernet. > > Yes, to avoid false alarms. The purpose of the spacing rule is to ensure > that there is enough signal integrity that you do not get spurious > collision indications due to reflections off the impedance variations along > the cable. On a segment with few transceivers, there is enough margin that > the rule doesn't matter. This is why 10Base-2 doesn't have that rule: the > station count limit is low enough that it isn't needed. > Interesting! I won't disagree with what you're saying, since I'm ignorant of these details, but in my experience 10BASE-2 networks usually had far _more_ nodes on a network than any 10BASE-5 network I saw. I routinely saw over 100 nodes on a 10BASE-2, but I never saw more than 20 or so on a 10BASE-5. (There certainly may have been larger 10BASE-5 networks; I only ever saw about a dozen 10BASE-5 networks.) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jun 27 13:39:42 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 14:39:42 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> <722D9C4E-9DCD-430C-9B3E-5098D20CEDF7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <686BFFEC-7D54-4D7E-B16A-FB88E3780C9B@comcast.net> > On Jun 27, 2018, at 1:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:59 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Jun 27, 2018, at 12:36 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Collision detection was the reason (or at least _a_ reason) why the spacing > > of taps on the 10BASE-5 "thick" Ethernet cable was required to be an exact > > multiple of 2.5m. It was never clear to me why this was not also a > > requirement for 10BASE-2 "thin" Ethernet. > > Yes, to avoid false alarms. The purpose of the spacing rule is to ensure that there is enough signal integrity that you do not get spurious collision indications due to reflections off the impedance variations along the cable. On a segment with few transceivers, there is enough margin that the rule doesn't matter. This is why 10Base-2 doesn't have that rule: the station count limit is low enough that it isn't needed. > > Interesting! I won't disagree with what you're saying, since I'm ignorant of these details, but in my experience 10BASE-2 networks usually had far _more_ nodes on a network than any 10BASE-5 network I saw. I routinely saw over 100 nodes on a 10BASE-2, but I never saw more than 20 or so on a 10BASE-5. (There certainly may have been larger 10BASE-5 networks; I only ever saw about a dozen 10BASE-5 networks.) I can believe that. But the limit for 10Base-5 is 500 meter segment length, 100 transceivers. For 10Base-2, the limits are 185 meters and 30 stations. Note that's per segment; the whole network can be larger when repeaters are used. But the segment limits are the ones that relate to the electrical and signal integrity aspects of collision detect. I hope your 100-node thinwire network wasn't a single segment; such a config would run only if you're very lucky. The first Ethernets I saw were at DEC, in engineering buildings. They had long runs of 10Base-5 coax going all over the building, with transceivers for every node and a whole lot of nodes total. Those were probably pushing the limits. This reminds me of a research project done at DEC that at one point was discussed as a possible product but didn't happen: an Ethernet segment mapping device. It was called "packet voltmeter". The idea was that you'd have one at each end of the cable (it replaced the terminator). It would build a table of source addresses and packet signal amplitude. You could then combine the measurements at the two endpoints, plus the known cable attenuation, to make a physical map (with tap placement) of each Ethernet node. The arrival of thinwire with its short segments and star wiring, and especially twisted pair with point to point wiring, made this idea not suitable for a product. But the concept was pretty amazing, and it did work. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jun 27 15:00:36 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 14:00:36 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <686BFFEC-7D54-4D7E-B16A-FB88E3780C9B@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <5B32F2E2.4080006@pico-systems.com> <722D9C4E-9DCD-430C-9B3E-5098D20CEDF7@comcast.net> <686BFFEC-7D54-4D7E-B16A-FB88E3780C9B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 12:39 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > This reminds me of a research project done at DEC that at one point was > discussed as a possible product but didn't happen: an Ethernet segment > mapping device. It was called "packet voltmeter". The idea was that you'd > have one at each end of the cable (it replaced the terminator). It would > build a table of source addresses and packet signal amplitude. You could > then combine the measurements at the two endpoints, plus the known cable > attenuation, to make a physical map (with tap placement) of each Ethernet > node. > HP made that, and sold it as the 4990S "LANProbe Network Analysis System", which consisted of a 4991A "LANProbe" Cable Segment Analyzer, which you put at one end of the 10BASE-2 segment, and a 4992A "node locator", for the other end. There was also HP 4990A ProbeView software for Windows 3.0, but the 4991A and 4992A together could do what you describe, even without the the 4990A. I bought a 4991A from a surplus store cheap 20 years ago, but I've never found the 4992A, and the 4991A offers only a tiny subset of the functionality if you don't also have the 4992A. The Internet doesn't know much about the HP 499x products. They are mentioned in an HP Journal article "Design Challenges for Distributed LAN Analysis" in February 1992 (vol 43 no 1 page 66 ff.). From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Jun 27 18:19:33 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 00:19:33 +0100 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 27/06/18 02:56, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > So where did the "leave extra line before the terminator" came from? > No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also be at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jun 27 21:34:38 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 27 Jun 2018 19:34:38 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> Message-ID: <487bb0b2-8510-7df8-095c-1fa62c49f31f@sydex.com> On 06/27/2018 04:19 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at > specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). > Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also be > at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? It had occurred to me to wonder if some poor tech had measured out, say, 151 meters of cable where 152.5 was called for by the "exactly every 2.5M spec). It would seem that any attempt to add an extra 1.5 was believed to be called for in order to install a terminator would have resulted in a "cure" worse than simple adding the terminator at the end of the cable. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jun 28 02:55:36 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:55:36 +0200 (CEST) Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <12784307-A77B-4C35-88E6-F1EC1D6DC0B3@donaldwhittemore.com> References: <12784307-A77B-4C35-88E6-F1EC1D6DC0B3@donaldwhittemore.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Donald wrote: > The whole collection went to > Computer Museum of America in Roswell, GA > https://computermuseumofamerica.org/ Is that the museum that formerly was in San Diego? Christian From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 28 03:52:40 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:52:40 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <487bb0b2-8510-7df8-095c-1fa62c49f31f@sydex.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> Message-ID: <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> On 2018-06-27 19:34:38 -07:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 06/27/2018 04:19 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at > > specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). > > Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also be > > at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? > > It had occurred to me to wonder if some poor tech had measured out, say, > 151 meters of cable where 152.5 was called for by the "exactly every > 2.5M spec). It would seem that any attempt to add an extra 1.5 was > believed to be called for in order to install a terminator would have > resulted in a "cure" worse than simple adding the terminator at the end > of the cable. > I guess one of the keys to a successful networking technology is that it should be possible to specify how to install it in a way that people not familiar with the inner workings of the technology can readily deal with. There are advantages to keeping the instructions as simple, short and easy to follow as possible with a minimum of exceptions and special cases. It might make sense to state that everything should be spaced 2.5m apart even when there is no advantage to this in the special case of terminators. The advantage is in reducing the complexity of the instructions. The disadvantage is it might lead to difficult cases like this one. On a slightly different point, didn't the thickwire spec call for the outer conductor of the cable to be earthed at exactly one point, presumably for safety reasons in case the cable contacted something at high voltage? This requirement was somehow not carried forward into thinwire, perhaps because the entirity of a thinwire network, including the connectors was supposed to be insulated and therefore not a danger to anyone? DEC produced insulated thinwire connectors and terminators but other than that I think this requirement was honoured more in the breach. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Thu Jun 28 06:41:11 2018 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 04:41:11 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: <4ED20659-78C8-4B93-86D1-C78C0B9450CB@donaldwhittemore.com> I don?t think so. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 07:15:14 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 07:15:14 -0500 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: <12784307-A77B-4C35-88E6-F1EC1D6DC0B3@donaldwhittemore.com> Message-ID: It's Lonnie in Atlanta. Spoken to him a few times in email and he/they are a serious investor in computer history. They also helped vintage computer festival southeast get a location originally. It's a good home for that gear. Sent from my Apple /////c > On Jun 28, 2018, at 2:55 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Donald wrote: >> The whole collection went to >> Computer Museum of America in Roswell, GA >> https://computermuseumofamerica.org/ > > Is that the museum that formerly was in San Diego? > > Christian From donald at donaldwhittemore.com Thu Jun 28 07:09:05 2018 From: donald at donaldwhittemore.com (Donald) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 05:09:05 -0700 Subject: IBM junk Message-ID: I don?t recall if I had any 3880 documents. I will ask how they would like to handle this type of request. There are many duplicates and they will need time to catalog the documents. From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 07:24:58 2018 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 07:24:58 -0500 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: References: <12784307-A77B-4C35-88E6-F1EC1D6DC0B3@donaldwhittemore.com> Message-ID: <556E235F-3FD1-4142-8C8C-E89C9C2648E8@gmail.com> Oops. *Roswell not Atlanta. Sent from my Apple /////c > On Jun 28, 2018, at 7:15 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > It's Lonnie in Atlanta. Spoken to him a few times in email and he/they are a serious investor in computer history. They also helped vintage computer festival southeast get a location originally. > > It's a good home for that gear. > > > Sent from my Apple /////c > >>> On Jun 28, 2018, at 2:55 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, 27 Jun 2018, Donald wrote: >>> The whole collection went to >>> Computer Museum of America in Roswell, GA >>> https://computermuseumofamerica.org/ >> >> Is that the museum that formerly was in San Diego? >> >> Christian From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 08:14:35 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:14:35 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <487bb0b2-8510-7df8-095c-1fa62c49f31f@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Thinnet is supposed to be grounded at one point, and only one point, as well. Supposedly that's what the chain on some terminators is for. Some hubs have a grounding and termination option built in. I don't know offhand if this was specced in the standard or not. Of course, this often wasn't followed, or was followed incorrectly and the segment ended up grounded in multiple spots, which can cause ground loops. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 4:52 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2018-06-27 19:34:38 -07:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 06/27/2018 04:19 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > > > > No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at > > > specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). > > > Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also > be > > > at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? > > > > It had occurred to me to wonder if some poor tech had measured out, say, > > 151 meters of cable where 152.5 was called for by the "exactly every > > 2.5M spec). It would seem that any attempt to add an extra 1.5 was > > believed to be called for in order to install a terminator would have > > resulted in a "cure" worse than simple adding the terminator at the end > > of the cable. > > > > I guess one of the keys to a successful networking technology is that it > should be possible to specify how to install it in a way that people not > familiar with the inner workings of the technology can readily deal with. > There are advantages to keeping the instructions as simple, short and easy > to follow as possible with a minimum of exceptions and special cases. > > It might make sense to state that everything should be spaced 2.5m apart > even when there is no advantage to this in the special case of terminators. > The advantage is in reducing the complexity of the instructions. The > disadvantage is it might lead to difficult cases like this one. > > On a slightly different point, didn't the thickwire spec call for the outer > conductor of the cable to be earthed at exactly one point, presumably for > safety reasons in case the cable contacted something at high voltage? > This requirement was somehow not carried forward into thinwire, perhaps > because the entirity of a thinwire network, including the connectors was > supposed to be insulated and therefore not a danger to anyone? DEC > produced > insulated thinwire connectors and terminators but other than that I think > this requirement was honoured more in the breach. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jun 28 08:18:05 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:18:05 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> > On Jun 28, 2018, at 4:52 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > On 2018-06-27 19:34:38 -07:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 06/27/2018 04:19 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: >> >>> No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at >>> specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). >>> Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also be >>> at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? >> >> It had occurred to me to wonder if some poor tech had measured out, say, >> 151 meters of cable where 152.5 was called for by the "exactly every >> 2.5M spec). It would seem that any attempt to add an extra 1.5 was >> believed to be called for in order to install a terminator would have >> resulted in a "cure" worse than simple adding the terminator at the end >> of the cable. >> > > I guess one of the keys to a successful networking technology is that it > should be possible to specify how to install it in a way that people not > familiar with the inner workings of the technology can readily deal with. > There are advantages to keeping the instructions as simple, short and easy > to follow as possible with a minimum of exceptions and special cases. Yes, and indeed the Ethernet spec does that. > It might make sense to state that everything should be spaced 2.5m apart > even when there is no advantage to this in the special case of terminators. > The advantage is in reducing the complexity of the instructions. The > disadvantage is it might lead to difficult cases like this one. The spec is fine. What seems to happen is that people who don't understand EE made up their own additional rules for no good reason. Section 7.6.1 talks about cable lengths; 7.6.2 describes transceiver placement. Those rules are clear and sufficient, but neither says anything about terminator placement. > On a slightly different point, didn't the thickwire spec call for the outer > conductor of the cable to be earthed at exactly one point, presumably for > safety reasons in case the cable contacted something at high voltage? Yes, Ethernet spec section 7.6.3. Also for static discharge, though it doesn't say that explicitly. > This requirement was somehow not carried forward into thinwire, perhaps > because the entirity of a thinwire network, including the connectors was > supposed to be insulated and therefore not a danger to anyone? DEC produced > insulated thinwire connectors and terminators but other than that I think > this requirement was honoured more in the breach. Looking at 802.3, it says that a Thinwire segment MAY be grounded at one point, but not at multiple points. It also requires a static discharge path at each transceiver, 1 Mohm to ground. So you don't necessarily have a hard ground for the case where the cable is shorted to an AC power line -- I assume the reasoning was that this is unlikely enough it doesn't need to be considered. The Ethernet spec doesn't have anything analogous for 10Base-5 transceivers, so there the hard ground is necessary for a static discharge path. Both coax types, of course, require termination at each end. And both have a stated requirement for all connectors to be insulated. In practice, you can be a little loose with that if you place things so they stay away from other metal objects. You may not see the terminator at both ends on thinwire, if you're dealing with repeaters that are designed to sit at the segment end. Those have the terminator for that end inside the box. paul From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 08:24:24 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 09:24:24 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Thanks for the clarifications, Paul! Indeed, some thinnet devices do have terminators built in. On a fair bit of Allied Telesyn gear, there's a switch for it. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 9:18 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jun 28, 2018, at 4:52 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On 2018-06-27 19:34:38 -07:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 06/27/2018 04:19 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> No idea. But on thickwire the taps were all supposed to be made at > >>> specifically marked positions (for the reason given earlier). > >>> Perhaps someone (incorrectly) thought that the terminator should also > be > >>> at such a position and so a terminator could not be located at a tap? > >> > >> It had occurred to me to wonder if some poor tech had measured out, say, > >> 151 meters of cable where 152.5 was called for by the "exactly every > >> 2.5M spec). It would seem that any attempt to add an extra 1.5 was > >> believed to be called for in order to install a terminator would have > >> resulted in a "cure" worse than simple adding the terminator at the end > >> of the cable. > >> > > > > I guess one of the keys to a successful networking technology is that it > > should be possible to specify how to install it in a way that people not > > familiar with the inner workings of the technology can readily deal with. > > There are advantages to keeping the instructions as simple, short and > easy > > to follow as possible with a minimum of exceptions and special cases. > > Yes, and indeed the Ethernet spec does that. > > > It might make sense to state that everything should be spaced 2.5m apart > > even when there is no advantage to this in the special case of > terminators. > > The advantage is in reducing the complexity of the instructions. The > > disadvantage is it might lead to difficult cases like this one. > > The spec is fine. What seems to happen is that people who don't > understand EE made up their own additional rules for no good reason. > Section 7.6.1 talks about cable lengths; 7.6.2 describes transceiver > placement. Those rules are clear and sufficient, but neither says anything > about terminator placement. > > > On a slightly different point, didn't the thickwire spec call for the > outer > > conductor of the cable to be earthed at exactly one point, presumably for > > safety reasons in case the cable contacted something at high voltage? > > Yes, Ethernet spec section 7.6.3. Also for static discharge, though it > doesn't say that explicitly. > > > This requirement was somehow not carried forward into thinwire, perhaps > > because the entirity of a thinwire network, including the connectors was > > supposed to be insulated and therefore not a danger to anyone? DEC > produced > > insulated thinwire connectors and terminators but other than that I think > > this requirement was honoured more in the breach. > > Looking at 802.3, it says that a Thinwire segment MAY be grounded at one > point, but not at multiple points. It also requires a static discharge > path at each transceiver, 1 Mohm to ground. So you don't necessarily have > a hard ground for the case where the cable is shorted to an AC power line > -- I assume the reasoning was that this is unlikely enough it doesn't need > to be considered. The Ethernet spec doesn't have anything analogous for > 10Base-5 transceivers, so there the hard ground is necessary for a static > discharge path. > > Both coax types, of course, require termination at each end. And both > have a stated requirement for all connectors to be insulated. In practice, > you can be a little loose with that if you place things so they stay away > from other metal objects. > > You may not see the terminator at both ends on thinwire, if you're dealing > with repeaters that are designed to sit at the segment end. Those have the > terminator for that end inside the box. > > paul > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 11:45:23 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 10:45:23 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 7:18 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Jun 28, 2018, at 4:52 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On a slightly different point, didn't the thickwire spec call for the > outer > > conductor of the cable to be earthed at exactly one point, presumably for > > safety reasons in case the cable contacted something at high voltage? > > Yes, Ethernet spec section 7.6.3. Also for static discharge, though it > doesn't say that explicitly. > [...] > Looking at 802.3, it says that a Thinwire segment MAY be grounded at one > point, but not at multiple points. It also requires a static discharge > path at each transceiver, 1 Mohm to ground. > In case it may not be obvious to some readers, the reason you should NEVER ground an Ethernet cable (of any kind) at two points is that the ground potential at two different points is unlikely to be the same, so that will cause a DC current flow through the cable. If there was a DC flow of a only a few mA, it might not be a big problem, but in practice the resulting DC flow could be _many_ amps, and could both damage equipment and be a safety hazard for personnel. Of course, this isn't specific to Ethernet. It can happen with e.g. TIA/EIA-232 (formerly RS-232) as well, and in fact that is even more common in practice, because Ethernet is transformer-isolated at each station, but TIA/EIA-232 is usually not. It's perfectly fine to have the 1 Mohm static discharge path at multiple points, because the 1 Mohm resistance prevents there from being any significant current. If the cable is not grounded at all, having at least one such static discharge path is important to ensure that no static charge builds up on the cable. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 12:22:05 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 19:22:05 +0200 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 18:45, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > In case it may not be obvious to some readers, the reason you should NEVER > ground an Ethernet cable (of any kind) at two points is that the ground > potential at two different points is unlikely to be the same, so that will > cause a DC current flow through the cable. I installed the first LAN at the biggest builders' merchants in the Isle of Man, some 28 or 29 years ago in my first job. Normally, we'd have wired it too, but they said no -- we have staff electricians, we'll put in the cabling, you just connect it. So we gave them the specs, they fitted benches, ran in lots of 13A 220V power, thinwire, plus plentiful power sockets & breaks in the cable for every position. We hooked up the PCs, installed the server, installed the DOS networking client, and started testing. It worked. We left. Within days, I was back. Intermittent dropouts -- basically, at more or less any given time, one machine couldn't see the rest of the LAN. But which one changed every few minutes. Much testing. At software level because we were a small company, in a small island nation, and Ethernet testers were _way_ over anyone's budget. Basic continuity worked. I started testing each node. All worked individually. So I started bisecting the thinwire and checking each half. I got a shock. Off a thinwire cable. I had a voltmeter, at least, and it was registering a 3-digit number of volts. I think I actually did say the full unexpurgated WTAF. The Ethernet wasn't grounded -- most weren't -- but it *was* lying in the same conduit as the new mains cable, many dozens of metres of it. AFAICT the mains cables were _inducing_ current in the Ethernet. Quite a lot of it. The client had to rip out and relay most of the cabling. They were ignorant enough to be overconfident: wires are wires, we do wires, we'll do them like any other wires and it'll be fine. What amazed me is that none of the NICs blew, none of the machines failed or died. Once the cabling was sorted, it was OK. Who knew that BNC Ethernet ports could handle 100V or more flowing through them and mostly work? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 13:13:31 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 18:13:31 +0000 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 06/28/2018 01:22 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 18:45, Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: >> In case it may not be obvious to some readers, the reason you should NEVER >> ground an Ethernet cable (of any kind) at two points is that the ground >> potential at two different points is unlikely to be the same, so that will >> cause a DC current flow through the cable. > I installed the first LAN at the biggest builders' merchants in the > Isle of Man, some 28 or 29 years ago in my first job. > > Normally, we'd have wired it too, but they said no -- we have staff > electricians, we'll put in the cabling, you just connect it. So we > gave them the specs, they fitted benches, ran in lots of 13A 220V > power, thinwire, plus plentiful power sockets & breaks in the cable > for every position. > > We hooked up the PCs, installed the server, installed the DOS > networking client, and started testing. > > It worked. We left. > > Within days, I was back. Intermittent dropouts -- basically, at more > or less any given time, one machine couldn't see the rest of the LAN. > But which one changed every few minutes. > > Much testing. At software level because we were a small company, in a > small island nation, and Ethernet testers were _way_ over anyone's > budget. > > Basic continuity worked. I started testing each node. All worked > individually. So I started bisecting the thinwire and checking each > half. > > I got a shock. Off a thinwire cable. > > I had a voltmeter, at least, and it was registering a 3-digit number of volts. > > I think I actually did say the full unexpurgated WTAF. > > The Ethernet wasn't grounded -- most weren't -- but it *was* lying in > the same conduit as the new mains cable, many dozens of metres of it. > AFAICT the mains cables were _inducing_ current in the Ethernet. Quite > a lot of it. > > The client had to rip out and relay most of the cabling. They were > ignorant enough to be overconfident: wires are wires, we do wires, > we'll do them like any other wires and it'll be fine. > > What amazed me is that none of the NICs blew, none of the machines > failed or died. Once the cabling was sorted, it was OK. Who knew that > BNC Ethernet ports could handle 100V or more flowing through them and > mostly work? > > > The US Electrical Code has not allowed any kind of signal wire in the same conduit with any kind of power wiring for as far back as I can remember. bill From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 13:37:11 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 20:37:11 +0200 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 20:13, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > The US Electrical Code has not allowed any kind of signal wire in > the same conduit with any kind of power wiring for as far back as > I can remember. Sounds very sensible, but the Isle of Man isn't part of the USA, nor even part of the UK. It's its own little country and this was the late 1980s. I suspect the Manx Electrical Code or equivalent had no mention of data cabling at that time. :-) My employers were still fairly new to this "Ethernet" stuff. In my next job, I installed a few SAGE MainLAN systems, because Ethernet was still too expensive. I don't know what the cabling system in MainLAN was, but it ran at 4Mb/s and IIRC the connectors to the NICs were DE-9. I can only find a few ads for it: https://books.google.cz/books?id=HXDkCoqMiVIC&pg=PP16&lpg=PP16&dq=%22SAGE+MainLAN%22&source=bl&ots=fnPPPF4Hhk&sig=rC_D70XTAU7QipXQed7HBDlS4Yo&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwims8Di_PbbAhUPDKwKHUEbBekQ6AEILjAB#v=onepage&q=%22SAGE%20MainLAN%22&f=false No tech description. The Internet has forgotten about it. :-( I think it went up against ArtiSoft LANtastic in its ARCnet incarnation, which I also never saw. MainLAN was much quicker than the $25 Network, which was rare in the UK -- I knew of only a single vendor and I never saw it. http://www.retro.co.za/blog/?p=2539 I believe the $25 Network was similar to Farallon PhoneNet, which I did work on sometimes -- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PhoneNet PhoneNet was original AppleTalk but over US-style telephone cables with US-style jacks, instead of Apple serial cables, so the cable runs could be much longer. In the UK we couldn't share cabling with phone cables, as we use different connectors for telephone lines to the USA. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_telephone_socket MainLAN was quicker, I think, than PromiseLAN which I also never saw: https://www.atarimagazines.com/compute/issue142/70_Getting_wired.php All the proprietary network interconnects were quickly replaced by Ethernet in my world -- usually 10base-2. A few IBM shops ran Token Ring but I rarely saw it. 10base-T mostly killed off Token Ring, and 100base-T quickly replaced 10base-T. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jun 28 14:14:15 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 19:14:15 +0000 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 06/28/2018 02:37 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 20:13, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > wrote: > >> The US Electrical Code has not allowed any kind of signal wire in >> the same conduit with any kind of power wiring for as far back as >> I can remember. > Sounds very sensible, but the Isle of Man isn't part of the USA, nor > even part of the UK. It's its own little country and this was the late > 1980s. I suspect the Manx Electrical Code or equivalent had no mention > of data cabling at that time. :-) > > I realize that, just pointing out that the threat was already well known by the 1980's. bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 15:20:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 13:20:25 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 06/28/2018 09:45 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > Of course, this isn't specific to Ethernet. It can happen with e.g. > TIA/EIA-232 (formerly RS-232) as well, and in fact that is even more common > in practice, because Ethernet is transformer-isolated at each station, but > TIA/EIA-232 is usually not. So, on a TIA/EIA/RS-232C DB-25 connector, what's the official position on pin 1? The standards calls it PGND = Protective ground and most reference seem to indicate that this is chassis/earth ground at both ends of a cable. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 15:42:46 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 14:42:46 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, on a TIA/EIA/RS-232C DB-25 connector, what's the official position > on pin 1? The standards calls it PGND = Protective ground and most > reference seem to indicate that this is chassis/earth ground at both > ends of a cable. > Which is exactly why this kind of problem routinely happens with TIA/EIA-232 and RS-232. People try to run it hundreds of feet to somewhere with a significantly different ground potential, and if they're _lucky_, it only works badly, but often equipment gets damaged. Since -232 doesn't have any galvanic isolation, even if you don't ground pin 1 at one end, it will still have the same problem on signal lines, because ultimately they're referenced to ground at both ends. If you _must_ run a long -232 cable, you should use some kind of isolator at one end. From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jun 28 16:45:49 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 23:45:49 +0200 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 28 Jun 2018 at 21:14, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > I realize that, just pointing out that the threat was already well known > by the 1980's. Ah, ISWYM now. Sorry. Yes, in that case, you're absolutely right. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Jun 28 16:16:45 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 22:16:45 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QU9C7F57YW000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> On 2018-06-28 at 13:20:25 -07:00, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > So, on a TIA/EIA/RS-232C DB-25 connector, what's the official position > on pin 1? The standards calls it PGND = Protective ground and most > reference seem to indicate that this is chassis/earth ground at both > ends of a cable. > In my opinion, this pin 1 protective ground thing is one of the most poorly thought out, useless, confusing ideas that this industry ever came up with (in hardware anyway, there are probably better contenders on the software side of the house...). Nobody has ever been able to convince me that it is capable of providing any protection to anyone or anything. I have never had given to me a remotely plausable explaination of any mechanism that it could be in any way useful in any circumstance. A "protective ground" conductor can be an appropriate and useful addition to a set of conductors which are supplying electrical power to something. There are standards defined all over the world (except maybe in the Isle of Man in the 1980s) that specify how to select an appropriate type of conductor to use for this purpose, how to connect it and so on. Anyone who knows a bit of electrical theory and has a bit of common sense can figure out how they provide protection and see that it is useful. A "protective ground" conductor is also a useful thing to use to connect a lightning conductor to a grounding system. A "protective ground" conductor is not a useful thing to route with signal conductors when there is no way of knowing what current and voltage it might be expected to carry over what duty cycle and therefore no way of knowing how to select a suitable conductor. Even if a suitable conductor size could be determined based on the capacity of the power supply circuits to the equipment at each end of the serial link in question (on the assumption that they will be responsible for delivering any fault current), I'm willing to bet that the size of conductor involved will in many cases not be in any way appropriate for connecting to a pin of a D connector. Years ago, when making up serial cables, I dedided to not ignore pin 1 like I usually did and this time I would figure out how to deal with it properly. After a asking a lot of questions, looking for references and considering theories of how it might provide protection, I came to the conclusion that I had been right all along and the very best thing I could do with pin 1 was to leave it unconnected. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jun 28 19:05:32 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 17:05:32 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> On 06/28/2018 01:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 2:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > > wrote: > > So, on a TIA/EIA/RS-232C DB-25 connector, what's the official position > on pin 1?? The standards calls it PGND = Protective ground and most > reference seem to indicate that this is chassis/earth ground at both > ends of a cable. > > > Which is exactly why this kind of problem routinely happens with > TIA/EIA-232 and RS-232. People try to run it hundreds of feet to > somewhere with a significantly different ground potential, and if > they're _lucky_, it only works badly, but often equipment gets damaged. > > Since -232 doesn't have any galvanic isolation, even if you don't ground > pin 1 at one end, it will still have the same problem on signal lines, > because ultimately they're referenced to ground at both ends. If you > _must_ run a long -232 cable, you should use some kind of isolator at > one end. The original standard is very old--it dates form 1960--a very different time; DCE was strictly under the control of the telcos, and I suspect that connection to DTE had to be approved by them. In that sense, pin 1 serving as a "protective ground" might have made some sense--and has been grandfathered in. Note that the DE-9 connector version doesn't include this signal. As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure that NEMA 5-15R receptacles existed in 1960, so grounding may have been a moot issue. Mostly, I ignore pin 1 and will occasionally make use if it if I'm using shielded cable--but only on one end--usually the DCE side. But perhaps someone with a copy of the current TIA-RS232C document might see if the wording has changed. --Chuck --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jun 28 20:47:36 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:47:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! Message-ID: <20180629014736.3D27018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Eric Smith > If you _must_ run a long -232 cable 'Don't!' That's what -422 is for. :-) Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jun 28 21:39:41 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Jun 2018 21:39:41 -0500 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5B359BED.5050204@pico-systems.com> On 06/28/2018 12:22 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > What amazed me is that none of the NICs blew, none of the > machines failed or died. Once the cabling was sorted, it > was OK. Who knew that BNC Ethernet ports could handle 100V > or more flowing through them and mostly work? They are galvanically isolated, good for several thousand Volts. The transceiver is powered by a tiny transformer, and the signals are passed through several more. Jon From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 02:53:51 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:53:51 +0200 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5B359BED.5050204@pico-systems.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <5B359BED.5050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 29 Jun 2018 at 04:39, Jon Elson wrote: > They are galvanically isolated, good for several thousand Volts. > The transceiver is powered by a tiny transformer, and the > signals are passed through several more. Fascinating. I did not know that. Thanks for the info! -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Jun 29 03:27:52 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:27:52 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> On 2018-06-28 at 17:05:32 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > The original standard is very old--it dates form 1960--a very different > time; DCE was strictly under the control of the telcos, and I suspect > that connection to DTE had to be approved by them. In that sense, pin 1 > serving as a "protective ground" might have made some sense--and has > been grandfathered in. Note that the DE-9 connector version doesn't > include this signal. > A telephony connection is the most plausable theory I have come across yet. I can remember devices that looked like large junction boxes with a ground connection that were installed where an overhead telephone line entered a building. They contained a fuse in series with each line conductor and a surge arrestor consisting of a spark gap and/or a VDR from each conductor to ground. I think the theory was that they might provide some protection against brief high voltage spikes induced onto the line by thunderstorm activity. I think they might have been more trouble than they were worth. Although I have never come across one, if such a surge protection device was available for a -232 circuit, I could see pin 1 of the DTE or DCE (whichever end the device is at) being a semi-plausable place to pick up the ground connection for it. However, I can't see any reason for continuing the protective ground connection any further on beyond this device. Could the standards have just been making provision for devices like this, in case they were later found to be necessary/useful? However, I think requiring a separate, permanently connected ground wire would be more in line with telephony practice and more helpful to prevent equipment damage. > > As a matter of fact, I'm not even sure that NEMA 5-15R receptacles > existed in 1960, so grounding may have been a moot issue. > I'm guessing a NEMA 5-15R is a grounded power outlet? The purpose of the power circuit ground conductor is to provide protection from hazards presented by the power circuit concerned. Any -232 pin 1 ground connection cannot hope to contribute to that and should not depend on it either because it could be called on to provide protection when the power cable is not connected to an outlet. > > Mostly, I ignore pin 1 and will occasionally make use if it if I'm using > shielded cable--but only on one end--usually the DCE side. > If the shield is being used to reduce noise on the line, surely it should be connected to pin 7 at both ends? If the shield is being used to protect against induced voltage surges, I think it will only have a chance of doing that if some sort of surge suppression equipment is also present. If the shield is being used to protect against accidental contact with a power conductor, I don't think connecting it to pin 1 is an appropriate way to achieve that. > > But perhaps someone with a copy of the current TIA-RS232C document might > see if the wording has changed. > I would be very interested to know what it says on the matter as well as what was said in the earliest standards. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 06:32:59 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 12:32:59 +0100 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-06-28 at 17:05:32 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> >> The original standard is very old--it dates form 1960--a very different >> time; DCE was strictly under the control of the telcos, and I suspect >> that connection to DTE had to be approved by them. In that sense, pin 1 >> serving as a "protective ground" might have made some sense--and has >> been grandfathered in. Note that the DE-9 connector version doesn't >> include this signal. >> I thought the original use of the RS232 interface was between a terminal and a modem sitting right next to it. In which case there is not likely to be much voltage between the protective grounds of the 2 devices (well, unless there are serious problems with your mains wiring!). Longer distance serial interfaces were originally current loop which were electrically isolated at one end, originally using high-speed relays and later opto-isolators. > > A telephony connection is the most plausable theory I have come across yet. > I can remember devices that looked like large junction boxes with a ground > connection that were installed where an overhead telephone line entered a > building. They contained a fuse in series with each line conductor and > a surge arrestor consisting of a spark gap and/or a VDR from each conductor The one I've come across is called a 'Protector, Heat Coil & Fuse'. It has a cartrdge fuse and a heat coil (basically a resisance coil with a spring-loaded soldered joint that is designed to open if the thing gets hot enough to melt the solder) in sereis with each line wire and a spark gap between each wire and ground. I think they were more trouble than they were worth, the one I have was officially modified by removing the spark gaps and replacing the (cartridge) fuses with solid metal bars, leaving only the heat coils in-circuit. > to ground. I think the theory was that they might provide some protection > against brief high voltage spikes induced onto the line by thunderstorm > activity. I think they might have been more trouble than they were worth. > > Although I have never come across one, if such a surge protection device was > available for a -232 circuit, I could see pin 1 of the DTE or DCE (whichever > end the device is at) being a semi-plausable place to pick up the ground > connection for it. However, I can't see any reason for continuing the > protective ground connection any further on beyond this device. There was a thing called a 'barrier box'. At one time in England you had to rent the modem from the Post Office (who had a monopoly on telephone systems [1]). You also had to have a 'barrier box' between your RS232 device and the modem. This consisted of a low-rating fuse (50mA?) in series with each RS232 wire (apart from pin 1, Protective Ground) and a pair of zener diodes (25V?) in inverse-series between each RS232 wire on the modem side of the fuse and Protective Ground. So 24 fuses and 48 zeners in all. Protective Ground was passed through it AFAIK. [1] I seem to remember that Hull had its own telephone company, but I suspct the same rules applied. Some early serial interfaces had internal fuses/zeners. The HP11206 (modem interface for the HP9830) does, although the HP11205 (RS232 interface for serial printers, etc) and HP11284 (async/sync serial interface) do not. In the case of the HP11205, I suspect it is because it was never intended to be used with a modem. in the case of the HP11284, I suspect the requirements had eased by the time it was introduced. It appears the British Post Office were very worried about excessive voltages on their lines. I have an HP telephone line analyser and the UK version (which is the one I have) has an extra PCB of zeners and fuses inside (it's desribed in the service manual as the 'A44 Protection Board Assembly' and it states that the 'A44 Assembly is only fitted to instruments intended for use in the UK' For some unknown reason, you were supposed to use a barrier box on the GPIB interface of the PERQ if you linked certain printers to it (like the Versatec electrostatic thing). The unit was just an RS232 breakoutbox with a couple of specially-wired cables to get the signal lines on protected pins and the protective ground line on the GPIB sheld pin. -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 29 08:31:38 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 09:31:38 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> > On Jun 29, 2018, at 7:32 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk > wrote: >> On 2018-06-28 at 17:05:32 -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >>> >>> The original standard is very old--it dates form 1960--a very different >>> time; DCE was strictly under the control of the telcos, and I suspect >>> that connection to DTE had to be approved by them. In that sense, pin 1 >>> serving as a "protective ground" might have made some sense--and has >>> been grandfathered in. Note that the DE-9 connector version doesn't >>> include this signal. >>> > > I thought the original use of the RS232 interface was between a terminal and > a modem sitting right next to it. In which case there is not likely to be much > voltage between the protective grounds of the 2 devices (well, unless there are > serious problems with your mains wiring!). Yes, and the specified distance limit for RS232 is quite short, 50 feet or so. People have used RS232 over longer distances, of course, and gotten away with it. Ditto for current loop; I remember our college RSTS timesharing system which had current loop terminal connections running between buildings, the longest run was probably 1000 feet or so. Worked well enough, even though one of the terminals on the long runs was a Beehive video terminal, probably 1200 baud. (Most of the rest were either ASR33 or TI Silent 733.) Current loop of course doesn't have ground differential issues, but signal integrity on runs that long is still a concern. paul From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 12:01:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 10:01:59 -0700 Subject: Grounding - was: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <46e1b195-7c62-bec2-0a50-ab0c0112ce12@sydex.com> If anyone's wondering, here's a 1975 Bell System treatise on grounding and protection. Note that carbon-block protection was standard practice: http://bellsystempractices.org/500-/518-/518-010-105-i02_1975-09-01.pdf Note also, that the standard practice dictated that grounding at the dmarc should be tied to the power system ground, but that the grounding not use the power system ground (i.e. independent connection). Note also, if equipment frame/chassis grounds varied, bonding to a common ground e was recommended. This has loosened up quite a bit since the old days. On my home, built in 1980, the network interface box is tied to the old demarc box ground, which ran out to the pad-mounted transformer in the side yard. When the local utility moved the transformer pad to the front yard, they simply disconnected the telco ground and didn't tell anyone. When a tree in the side yard became uprooted during an ice storm a couple of years ago, it pulled up the old telco ground cable. I took out a service ticket for the incident and was told not to bother. When I asked why, I was told that buried subscriber lines are no longer required to be grounded. They didn't seem to be too perturbed about it, so I just coiled the cable up and buried it when I filled in the hole left by the tree. But yes, I remember the old Bell System 232 hookups--DB-25 connectors with phenolic backshells. I think I've still got a couple of those in my junkbox. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Fri Jun 29 12:17:47 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 18:17:47 +0100 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/06/2018 14:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Yes, and the specified distance limit for RS232 is quite short, 50 > feet or so. > > People have used RS232 over longer distances, of course, and gotten > away with it. The RS-232-C standard doesn't actually specify a maximum distance. Section 3.1 *recommends* short cables up to 50 feet or 15 meters (with speeds up to 20kbps) for RS-232 (and the later-dated Foreword suggests RS-449 beyond that) but says that longer is fine so long as the load capacitance excluding source and cable is less than 2500pF. In practice, much depends on the baud rate and cable quality used. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 12:37:18 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 11:37:18 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 7:31 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > People have used RS232 over longer distances, of course, and gotten away > with it. > And I would have gotten away with it, too, if it hadn't been for those meddling ground potential differences! From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 16:10:03 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 15:10:03 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5B359BED.5050204@pico-systems.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <5B359BED.5050204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 8:39 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 06/28/2018 12:22 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > >> What amazed me is that none of the NICs blew, none of the machines failed >> or died. Once the cabling was sorted, it was OK. Who knew that BNC Ethernet >> ports could handle 100V or more flowing through them and mostly work? >> > They are galvanically isolated, good for several thousand Volts. > Where "several thousand Volts" is 1500V minimum according to IEEE 802.3. Since more isolation costs more money, don't count on any normal product to have more than 1500V isolation. In fact, given that it's all made as cheaply as possible, I'm not sure you should really even count on 1500V. From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 16:30:32 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 17:30:32 -0400 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 29, 2018 at 1:17 PM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 29/06/2018 14:31, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> Yes, and the specified distance limit for RS232 is quite short, 50 >> feet or so. >> >> People have used RS232 over longer distances, of course, and gotten >> away with it. > > In practice, much depends on the baud rate and cable quality used. When we wired up two different locations for terminals at Software Results Corp in the 80s, the furthest runs were 250' or so. 9600 baud, from VT100s back to Emulex and DEC serial muxes. The long runs were 25-pair telephone cable (CAT3) and Nevada Western modular wiring products at the user and and in the middle (silver satin patch cords and 6p6c jacks and receptacles). Total port count was over 50 to 4-5 machines and to 20+ offices. We didn't see any real transmission problems. Way over the usual distances but solid for us. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jun 29 17:42:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 15:42:58 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 06/29/2018 02:30 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > When we wired up two different locations for terminals at Software > Results Corp in the 80s, the furthest runs were 250' or so. 9600 > baud, from VT100s back to Emulex and DEC serial muxes. The long runs > were 25-pair telephone cable (CAT3) and Nevada Western modular wiring > products at the user and and in the middle (silver satin patch cords > and 6p6c jacks and receptacles). Total port count was over 50 to 4-5 > machines and to 20+ offices. That was a very common setup in the 80s. 25 or 50 pair phone cable running through the usual wiring closets and punch-down blocks. Simple, and something that installers could understand. --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jun 29 17:49:19 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:49:19 -0600 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jun 29, 2018, 4:43 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 06/29/2018 02:30 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > When we wired up two different locations for terminals at Software > > Results Corp in the 80s, the furthest runs were 250' or so. 9600 > > baud, from VT100s back to Emulex and DEC serial muxes. The long runs > > were 25-pair telephone cable (CAT3) and Nevada Western modular wiring > > products at the user and and in the middle (silver satin patch cords > > and 6p6c jacks and receptacles). Total port count was over 50 to 4-5 > > machines and to 20+ offices. > > That was a very common setup in the 80s. 25 or 50 pair phone cable > running through the usual wiring closets and punch-down blocks. Simple, > and something that installers could understand. > When I ran my mini ISP with 7 dialing lines, I used a punchdown block since it was easier to bring 4 lines at a time from the network box to my basement before fanning them out to the modems... Still use punchdown for ethernet... Warner Warner > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jun 29 18:16:07 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 16:16:07 -0700 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <05796784-AD9E-4370-8C2C-133DBAB34701@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jun-29, at 1:27 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: > > A telephony connection is the most plausable theory I have come across yet. > I can remember devices that looked like large junction boxes with a ground > connection that were installed where an overhead telephone line entered a > building. They contained a fuse in series with each line conductor and > a surge arrestor consisting of a spark gap and/or a VDR from each conductor > to ground. I think the theory was that they might provide some protection > against brief high voltage spikes induced onto the line by thunderstorm > activity. I think they might have been more trouble than they were worth. Over here at least, they are still a standard part of any telephone landline. Many decades or a century ago they were a big white 4*5 inch ceramic block mounted in the basement, with two long red (fusible?) resistors in series with each pair-wire and a double carbon-block spark gap to ground underneath a black bakelite knob. Now they're built into the house-side connection box and you might not even know there is something besides the connection terminals there. How often they actually come into active play I have no idea, but they still strike me as a good idea when you have miles of overhead line back to the CO. > If the shield is being used to reduce noise on the line, surely it should be > connected to pin 7 at both ends? Surely you'll often get away with such, but "surely it should be connected to pin 7 . ."? No. I don't know whether the -232 spec actually refers to pin 1 as "protective" ground, but regardless, "protective" here doesn't have to mean the same thing as "protective" in the mains wiring arena (or provide the identical functions). Protective ground in the mains arena serves both to flatten voltages and bleed off slight currents from leakage and L/C coupling, and to carry enough current to blow the mains breaker in the event of shorts to chassis. The "protective" ground on a -232 connection could be performing at least two functions: the afore-mentioned neutralisation of leakage, and noise suppression. It is not at all insensible to separate those functions into a separate wire from the wire providing signal-circuit continuity (signal common / signal ground). You don't want currents or voltages from leakage or noise upsetting the signal-circuit common level. I don't think anyone was intending the -232 protective ground to provide the 'blow the mains breaker' function. Yes, sometimes the noise/leakage/signal-common functions are all combined into one wire, or stated alternatively, sometimes the environment and needs allow one to combine them into one wire. Consumer audio for instance - where the shield is commonly both the signal common and noise/hum shield. But even in that low-requirements arena you might remember turntables - where there were two channel-cable common/ground shields but there was also a separate chassis ground wire. Equipment, esp. back in the 60's, might not have a mains ground. Even in equipment that does, signal common/ground and chassis ground may be separated. Relying on the signal ground wire to provide all these functions when connecting equipment with varying grounding policies is asking for problems. - Speaking of abusing RS-232, in our CS dept (UBC) in the 80s when we moved our project offices to another room some ways away from the machine room we were faced with getting terminal cabling between them. 'Properly' this would involve calling in the physical plant dept or the telco to run new wire or make twisted-pair connections on the telephone wiring. However, a little OCD observation of wall panels over my time there, some speculation, and some continuity testing allowed me to figure out there were some little-to-unused 100-pair cables terminating in punch-blocks in panels in various rooms, so with a little punching between blocks within a panel I was able to get continuity between the machine room and our new room. No new wire-runs and no bureaucracy involved. We used -232 over those connections. Something makes me think I reserved 3 pair per line but used 2 (4 wires): XMT, RCV, DTR to let the terminal switch know a terminal was present, and signal-GND. The university timesharing Computing Center, to provide terminals across the large campus, used 422-style balanced-line signaling. Every CC-connected terminal around campus had a little 3*4*6 box sitting with it, with 3 LEDS (power, XMT, RCV), and containing dual power supplies (232 terminal side & 422 'campus' side), two opto-isolators (XMT & RCV) and assorted drivers. Each connection was 2-pair (XMT,RCV) over the telephone wiring physical plant. There were various manufacturers (Gandalf and Develcon come to mind) that made such devices, but in UBC's case the computing centre made their own. I saved what is probably the last existent one when I ran across it in a radio-musuem donation pile years later but years ago now. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jun 29 21:35:17 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 22:35:17 -0400 Subject: Grounding - was: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: <46e1b195-7c62-bec2-0a50-ab0c0112ce12@sydex.com> References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> <46e1b195-7c62-bec2-0a50-ab0c0112ce12@sydex.com> Message-ID: <48994B9A-020F-4E60-A594-C7F3056B1F2E@comcast.net> > On Jun 29, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > If anyone's wondering, here's a 1975 Bell System treatise on grounding > and protection. Note that carbon-block protection was standard practice: > > http://bellsystempractices.org/500-/518-/518-010-105-i02_1975-09-01.pdf > > Note also, that the standard practice dictated that grounding at the > dmarc should be tied to the power system ground, but that the grounding > not use the power system ground (i.e. independent connection). > > Note also, if equipment frame/chassis grounds varied, bonding to a > common ground e was recommended. > > This has loosened up quite a bit since the old days. On my home, built > in 1980, the network interface box is tied to the old demarc box ground, > which ran out to the pad-mounted transformer in the side yard. When the > local utility moved the transformer pad to the front yard, they simply > disconnected the telco ground and didn't tell anyone. Yikes, that is a major error. As far as I remember the electric code clearly requires all these things to be bonded to the building ground rod(s). For one thing, if you don't tie things to a single ground you're likely to suffer much greater damage if there is a nearby lightning strike. I found this out the hard way because our house had cable TV coming in at the opposite side from power and telephone, so it surge protector was tied to a ground rod 50 feet from that of the power. When we had a strike maybe 50 feet out from the power entry, the currents due to mismatched ground levels were enough to fry every single bit of electronics connected to the cable TV connection, even if 3 or 4 steps removed (like from cable TV to splitter to cable modem to router to Ethernet switch to printer... all those were toasted). I now have a single point ground, with commercial grade surge protectors all bonded to a single sheet of copper directly connected to the power entry ground system. paul From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat Jun 30 05:35:12 2018 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 12:35:12 +0200 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <287d7b46-661f-669e-7145-5d0d0ac7cf35@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> Message-ID: tor 2018-06-28 klockan 20:37 +0200 skrev Liam Proven via cctalk: > > > Sounds very sensible, but the Isle of Man isn't part of the USA, nor > even part of the UK. It's its own little country and this was the > late > 1980s. I suspect the Manx Electrical Code or equivalent had no > mention > of data cabling at that time. :-) > The telephone companies knows about it yes ... Two things: - induced voltages in telephone lines due to solar activity (only at northern and southern latitudes like in northern sweden and norway or Canada/Alaska.) - induced voltages (around 300 V) in telephone lines due to the new railway electrification. Forced Televerket to move their telephone lines away from Malmbanan in 1915 and SJ to add current transformers along the line. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 08:53:27 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 09:53:27 -0400 Subject: Look at this on eBay Message-ID: A couple of boards from an unknown computer came in and i am trying to get them to a good home and not be scrapped. I was curious if anyone here knew what they were out of. They were in the box with some small core memory boards. If someone here wants to make an offer ill gladly take the ebay listing down. eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/273330177351 From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 09:28:38 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 10:28:38 -0400 Subject: Look at this on eBay In-Reply-To: <98D53160-A9F3-4D8C-B57B-92101A81A75B@vmssoftware.com> References: <98D53160-A9F3-4D8C-B57B-92101A81A75B@vmssoftware.com> Message-ID: Thank you for the info, i was curious what they were out of. They sold, hopefully the guy who bought them can put them to use. On 10:26AM, Sat, Jun 30, 2018 Camiel Vanderhoeven < camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com> wrote: > The boards have a Burroughs logo on them. The part numbers on the IC's are > Burroughs p/n's. The board you think might be a memory board isn't; > according to the Burroughs partnumber cross-reference ( > https://ia801604.us.archive.org/33/items/bitsavers_burroughsissref_2069854/burroughs_IC_crossref_text.pdf), > those chips are diode arrays. > > Camiel > > ?On 6/30/18, 3:53 PM, "cctalk on behalf of devin davison via cctalk" < > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org on behalf of cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > A couple of boards from an unknown computer came in and i am trying to > get > them to a good home and not be scrapped. I was curious if anyone here > knew > what they were out of. They were in the box with some small core memory > boards. If someone here wants to make an offer ill gladly take the ebay > listing down. > > eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/273330177351 > > > > From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jun 30 10:52:50 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 11:52:50 -0400 Subject: R: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <008101d40ae9$f897e970$e9c7bc50$@tin.it> Message-ID: <16451659916-c92-2f01c@webjas-vac053.srv.aolmail.net> In reality.... browsing? the photos? replaces? ?seeing? many of those items in person.? I was amazed! reminds? me? ?of? much of the Burroughs? 'go with and promo items'? we have... hard to display? all of? them at once well? but? all are? worth? seeing. ED# ? In a message dated 6/23/2018 5:02:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Watching all the pictures was a really good experience, especially considering how many of those items I would never have had the chance of seeing otherwise. -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Donald via cctalk Inviato: sabato 23 giugno 2018 00:34 A: cctalk at classiccmp.org Oggetto: IBM junk Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. 115 boxes of manuals and documents. 26 boxes of coffee mugs 73 703 boxes of stuff. 106 loose big items. Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jun 30 13:23:24 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 14:23:24 -0400 Subject: Look at this on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They're Burroughs L5000 boards I believe. I just bought them to go with the rest of what I already have here, thanks. If you cant to send me a photo of the core boards, might be interested. BIll On Sat, Jun 30, 2018 at 9:54 AM devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > A couple of boards from an unknown computer came in and i am trying to get > them to a good home and not be scrapped. I was curious if anyone here knew > what they were out of. They were in the box with some small core memory > boards. If someone here wants to make an offer ill gladly take the ebay > listing down. > > eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/273330177351 > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Jun 29 11:50:22 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 10:50:22 -0600 Subject: ok I have to ask...confirm direction of GRANT continuity cards please In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jun 28, 2018 at 8:26 PM, Bill Degnan via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have always pointed my grant continuity cards in the same direction as a > NPG card, with the traces to the left/facing the last slot of the > backplane. I am 99% sure this is right but I was asked and I just want to > be 100%...am I right? In particular the traces point away from the CPU > cards, at least on an 11/40 and 11/05. Please just tell me I am not losing > it. > If your system works properly, the grant cards are in the right way. If the grant cards are installed wrong, or missing, it will cause serious problems, and you're unlikely to be able to boot anything. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Jun 29 17:52:03 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 22:52:03 +0000 Subject: Thicknet/10base5 Test Segment: The Cable is In! In-Reply-To: References: <20180626183751.5ACA918C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <314d610d-03b2-4044-9ead-1ed0629ea15e@sydex.com> <102e4667-ab20-89d4-0ec6-c2e314514893@sydex.com> <01QU8KFELQVS000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <5032F78D-9CC7-4161-9363-ED15EDA4806C@comcast.net> <67a4a24c-7052-fc7c-bcaf-3fd4d58f384a@sydex.com> <01QU9YSCMUVO000NKB@beyondthepale.ie> <7D8B4E79-38C2-46BC-882B-1D7CC6C2552B@comcast.net> <5fd16086-ab6d-720b-cd8f-1821efa2b499@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Friday, June 29, 2018 3:43 PM > On 06/29/2018 02:30 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: >> When we wired up two different locations for terminals at Software >> Results Corp in the 80s, the furthest runs were 250' or so. 9600 >> baud, from VT100s back to Emulex and DEC serial muxes. The long runs >> were 25-pair telephone cable (CAT3) and Nevada Western modular wiring >> products at the user and and in the middle (silver satin patch cords >> and 6p6c jacks and receptacles). Total port count was over 50 to 4-5 >> machines and to 20+ offices. > That was a very common setup in the 80s. 25 or 50 pair phone cable > running through the usual wiring closets and punch-down blocks. Simple, > and something that installers could understand. In fact, both of the LOTS sites (the original, in the CERAS building, and LOTS Two in the old bowling alley at Tresidder Union) were wired this way. I learned to use a punchdown tool my first day on the job. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Jun 29 22:11:31 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 29 Jun 2018 23:11:31 -0400 Subject: More exhibits and volunteers needed for VCF West Message-ID: <145a043a-064b-15bf-e613-91b6ff68d668@snarc.net> It's almost time for Vintage Computer Festival West XIII! The show is August 4-5 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. You?ll find dozens of hands-on exhibits, incredible lectures, a huge consignment sale, and much more -- plus the museum's own tours and hands-on demos. There is still time to register your exhibit, but it's tight! Go to http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/vcf-west-exhibits/ ASAP to sign up. We also need more volunteers! Email erik at vcfed.org if you can be a helper. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Jun 30 09:26:26 2018 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 30 Jun 2018 16:26:26 +0200 Subject: Look at this on eBay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <98D53160-A9F3-4D8C-B57B-92101A81A75B@vmssoftware.com> The boards have a Burroughs logo on them. The part numbers on the IC's are Burroughs p/n's. The board you think might be a memory board isn't; according to the Burroughs partnumber cross-reference (https://ia801604.us.archive.org/33/items/bitsavers_burroughsissref_2069854/burroughs_IC_crossref_text.pdf), those chips are diode arrays. Camiel ?On 6/30/18, 3:53 PM, "cctalk on behalf of devin davison via cctalk" wrote: A couple of boards from an unknown computer came in and i am trying to get them to a good home and not be scrapped. I was curious if anyone here knew what they were out of. They were in the box with some small core memory boards. If someone here wants to make an offer ill gladly take the ebay listing down. eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/273330177351