From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 03:00:16 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 04:00:16 -0400 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA Message-ID: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-84-M8190-AE-Module-FPJ11-AA/113112634277 IMO a really good deal on an 18 Mhz FPJ11-AA. Those don't seem to come up much . Not my item, but I have previously purchased from this seller and he's reliable. ----- From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Jul 1 06:36:26 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 11:36:26 +0000 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> References: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1530444986421.27284@w2hx.com> what is the story about this board? Listing says 11/84 but this website says 8190-AE is for 11/83? http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php Which is it? Thanks Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Birkel via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 4:00 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-84-M8190-AE-Module-FPJ11-AA/113112634277 IMO a really good deal on an 18 Mhz FPJ11-AA. Those don't seem to come up much . Not my item, but I have previously purchased from this seller and he's reliable. ----- From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 06:59:41 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 07:59:41 -0400 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <1530444986421.27284@w2hx.com> References: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> <1530444986421.27284@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <04ca01d41132$feea4530$fcbecf90$@gmail.com> Same thing in this case. The 11/84 is an 11/83 extended by a Unibus interface to support legacy peripherals. -----Original Message----- From: W2HX [mailto:w2hx at w2hx.com] Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 7:36 AM To: Paul Birkel; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC FPJ11-AA what is the story about this board? Listing says 11/84 but this website says 8190-AE is for 11/83? http://web.frainresearch.org:8080/projects/pdp-11/dcj11.php Which is it? Thanks Eugene W2HX ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Birkel via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 1, 2018 4:00 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-84-M8190-AE-Module-FPJ11-AA/113112634277 IMO a really good deal on an 18 Mhz FPJ11-AA. Those don't seem to come up much . Not my item, but I have previously purchased from this seller and he's reliable. ----- = From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 1 07:11:51 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 08:11:51 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA Message-ID: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > Same thing in this case. The CPU looks to see a PMI signal that is generated by the KTJ11 - no signal -> 11/83. My impression is that except for the speed of the J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of the M8190 board variants are otherwise identical. Whether it's a /73, /83 or /84 depends entirely on whether it has/sees PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and the correct backplane, for the latter, of course). > The 11/84 is an 11/83 extended by a Unibus interface to support legacy > peripherals. It has a special backplane which is mostly UNIBUS slots, with a few QBUS/PMI slots on the front, and a 'special' slot in the middle into which the UNIBUS adapter goes. Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 08:14:19 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 09:14:19 -0400 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <04d101d4113d$6c1b1b20$44515160$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2018 8:12 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: DEC FPJ11-AA > From: Paul Birkel > Same thing in this case. The CPU looks to see a PMI signal that is generated by the KTJ11 - no signal -> 11/83. My impression is that except for the speed of the J11 (and the crystal), and whether or not it came with the FPJ11, all four of the M8190 board variants are otherwise identical. Whether it's a /73, /83 or /84 depends entirely on whether it has/sees PMI memory and the KTJ11-B UNIBUS converter (and the correct backplane, for the latter, of course). > The 11/84 is an 11/83 extended by a Unibus interface to support legacy > peripherals. It has a special backplane which is mostly UNIBUS slots, with a few QBUS/PMI slots on the front, and a 'special' slot in the middle into which the UNIBUS adapter goes. Noel ----- Indeed. As you say WRT the question asked, "same difference" excepting the Xtal/speed rating. The backplanes, power supplies, enclosures are of course radically different as they serve different commercial objectives. And as you say, the -AE ought to work in either environment. paul From lproven at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 09:29:18 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 16:29:18 +0200 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 Message-ID: The Moravian Galley in Brno has an exhibition on "Computer Art 1968". The only actual computer is a very well-preserved German LGP-30. I took a few photos of it yesterday... and got told off for handling the paper tape, which only has some diagnostics on it: blocks of "lace" alternating with unpunched blocks. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lproven/albums/72157696907302261 It was used by Zde?ek S?kora in his early abstract art. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zden%C4%9Bk_S%C3%BDkora -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 1 12:14:10 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 17:14:10 +0000 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 07/01/2018 08:11 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > It has a special backplane which is mostly UNIBUS slots, with a few QBUS/PMI > slots on the front, and a 'special' slot in the middle into which the UNIBUS > adapter goes. Speaking of PMI....? Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my first born male child?? I have one 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. And then probably run BSD 2.11 and Ultrix-11 on it.? At least until RSTS/E become Open Source.? :-) bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 12:45:29 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 13:45:29 -0400 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: what are the part numbers you are looking for On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 1:14 PM Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 07/01/2018 08:11 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > > > > It has a special backplane which is mostly UNIBUS slots, with a few > QBUS/PMI > > slots on the front, and a 'special' slot in the middle into which the > UNIBUS > > adapter goes. > > Speaking of PMI.... Anybody have any PMI memory modules they > might let go for less than my first born male child? I have one > 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. > And then probably run BSD 2.11 and Ultrix-11 on it. At least > until RSTS/E become Open Source. :-) > > bill > > From seefriek at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 17:22:41 2018 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 18:22:41 -0400 Subject: Looking for 11/23+ CIS Message-ID: I missed the recent M8198+CIS chip auction on eBay, and subsequently found myself with a new (for me) 11/23+. Does anyone have a CIS chip they're interested in parting with? Contact me directly. KJ From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 1 21:38:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 22:38:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA Message-ID: <20180702023847.1553318C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my > first born male child? The DEC PMI memories are the MSV11-J and (I think) the MSV11-R. The latter is rare, but the -J's can be found. VARx sold me some -JE's a couple of years back for a good deal less than their listing price: http://www.varx.com/CAT/MEMORY-DEC_MSVXX.HTML The other possibility is that Clearpoint made some PMI memories, which one can occasionally find on eBait, etc: the QED1 (aka QED-F) and DCME-Q4E (they look the same, so I'm not sure if they are actually different, or if the names were just changed for marketing reasons). Alas, I know of no documentation on either. (If anyone has any, _please_ share it!) I am slowly trying to work out how to configure them (they can be configured to run PMI or normal QBUS); contact me privately for what little I have so far. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Jul 1 22:04:12 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 1 Jul 2018 20:04:12 -0700 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 1, 2018 at 10:14 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Speaking of PMI.... Anybody have any PMI memory modules they > might let go for less than my first born male child? I have one > 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. > And then probably run BSD 2.11 and Ultrix-11 on it. At least > until RSTS/E become Open Source. :-) Maybe also try jtcomputer. I bought some M8637-E MSV11-JE boards from their eBay account (conflansrd) a few years back somewhere around the $50 range if I remember correctly. They have some listed at $75 on their website. I have no idea if that is current information or out of date stale information. You'd have to try sending them an email to find out: http://www.jtcomputer.com/search.asp?t=k&s=MSV11&page=3 From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 1 23:39:30 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 00:39:30 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_Re:_radar_history_Going_though_my_father's_Army_papers_th?= =?UTF-8?Q?ere_is_a_Certificate=C2=A0_for=C2=A0_his?= =?UTF-8?Q?_attendance=C2=A0_at_SCR_268_School!?= In-Reply-To: <161f3238e83-1da9-9e69@webjas-vac229.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <1645949dcca-c93-11b6a@webjas-vac015.srv.aolmail.net> Going though my father's Army papers there is a Certificate? for? his attendance? at SCR 268 School! Never? though I would have some? family history to put? with some of the scraps? I? have? ?268 stuff here.? ?My? dad? was like? some of the others if? it? was classified? when he? was in the service? he? tended to continue to think of it that? way.? He? mentioned? Radars and ones? with big bed spring antennas? and? of? course? ?explained? how? one? worked? when we? moved to a? place with a? Nike? radar? site across the street? ( LA-55? Palos Verdes)... ? But? Darn!? wish? he? had? ?gone into more? detail. ? I have? 2 ? of the? scopes? of the? 3? ?Navy Nick? ?photoed another at a ham fest? but? he? did not? know I was looking? for a? third..? ?the shipping? would have been? tough... but ...? ?the? big thing though? with all of them that I have seen? surplus is they are missing the outer skin? for the? case.? anyone? got? some? ? we? do have at? SMECC? the complete? IFF? unit that was? used alongside the? 268? it weights 400 lbs? or something...?? ? Now... I? am even moreso wanting to get? mor? 268 stuff to? display.? ?anyone? have? ?the TX? RX? units? ? I am now? going to? find a? nice? frame? ?for this? certificate. ? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC? ? From engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 03:49:47 2018 From: engwalljonathanthereal at gmail.com (Jonathan Engwall) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 01:49:47 -0700 Subject: simh pdp8 question Message-ID: My pdp8 seems to have very space. I want to try fortran iv. I can't even compile hello world without getting: $SY From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 2 07:26:52 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:26:52 +0100 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <8014f420-8484-b738-9214-11e1fecb2057@dunnington.plus.com> On 01/07/2018 18:14, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > Speaking of PMI....? Anybody have any PMI memory modules they > might let go for less than my first born male child?? I have one > 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. If you really mean 11/93 (as opposed to, say, 11/83), it would normally only use its on-board memory. It does work with PMI memory, but might it not be easier to just add the extra ICs on the CPU board? -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 2 07:34:13 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:34:13 +0100 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <20180702023847.1553318C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180702023847.1553318C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 02/07/2018 03:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Bill Gunshannon > > > Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less than my > > first born male child? > > The DEC PMI memories are the MSV11-J and (I think) the MSV11-R. The latter is > rare, but the -J's can be found. Correct, but bear in mind that there are 4 versions of the MSV11-J; the -JB and -JC versions have different ASICs and don't support QBus CPUs. Specifically, they don't support block-mode transfers and don't work properly even as PMI memory except in an 11/84, while the -JE and JD versions support everything. Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too big). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Jul 2 07:51:24 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 08:51:24 -0400 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> > On Jul 1, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > > The Moravian Galley in Brno has an exhibition on "Computer Art 1968". > The only actual computer is a very well-preserved German LGP-30. I > took a few photos of it yesterday... and got told off for handling the > paper tape, Asking people not to touch museum exhibits makes sense to me. > https://www.flickr.com/photos/lproven/albums/72157696907302261 Neat. German labels on the controls... paul From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 08:16:26 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:16:26 +0000 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <8014f420-8484-b738-9214-11e1fecb2057@dunnington.plus.com> References: <20180701121151.6A23B18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <8014f420-8484-b738-9214-11e1fecb2057@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: On 07/02/2018 08:26 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 01/07/2018 18:14, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > >> Speaking of PMI....? Anybody have any PMI memory modules they >> might let go for less than my first born male child?? I have one >> 11/93 with 2 Meg and would love to bring it up to full memory. > > If you really mean 11/93 (as opposed to, say, 11/83), it would > normally only use its on-board memory.? It does work with PMI memory, > but might it not be easier to just add the extra ICs on the CPU board? > It's an 11/93 all right.? It has 2 meg on the board.? The chips are surface mount and even if I could find some I could trust were good (all I saw with a quick search were "refurbished" which means taken out of something else!) I am not sure I would want to risk working on what I consider a rare find and my best PDP-11.? Everything I have found so far says PMI works fine so I would prefer to find a 2meg or even a pair of 1 meg PMI boards.? Not looking at commercial resellers because I have dealt with them in the past and know I can't afford them. bill From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 08:17:33 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:17:33 +0000 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: References: <20180702023847.1553318C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 07/02/2018 08:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: > On 02/07/2018 03:38, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> ???? > From: Bill Gunshannon >> >> ???? > Anybody have any PMI memory modules they might let go for less >> than my >> ???? > first born male child? >> >> The DEC PMI memories are the MSV11-J and (I think) the MSV11-R. The >> latter is >> rare, but the -J's can be found. > > Correct, but bear in mind that there are 4 versions of the MSV11-J; > the -JB and -JC versions have different ASICs and don't support QBus > CPUs. Specifically, they don't support block-mode transfers and don't > work properly even as PMI memory except in an 11/84, while the -JE and > JD versions support everything.? Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version > (the -JE version is 4MB so too big). > Or a pair of the 1 meg ore did they go away before the 11/93 came out? bill From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 2 08:31:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 09:31:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA Message-ID: <20180702133131.BA4ED18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pete Turnbull > Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too > big). Err, the -JD is 1MB, and the -JE is 2MB (see e.g. EK-MSV1J-UG-001, pg. 1-3). Noel From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 10:51:47 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 10:51:47 -0500 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <20180702133131.BA4ED18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180702133131.BA4ED18C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: In most of the earlier MOS as in the MSV11-DD the first letter after would indicate memory size, and the second would indicate who made the chips. Paul On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:31 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Pete Turnbull > > > Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version (the -JE version is 4MB so too > > big). > > Err, the -JD is 1MB, and the -JE is 2MB (see e.g. EK-MSV1J-UG-001, pg. > 1-3). > > Noel > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 13:20:02 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 13:20:02 -0500 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> References: <04a501d41111$8cb9f3a0$a62ddae0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/01/2018 03:00 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP-11-84-M8190-AE-Module-FPJ11-AA/113112634277 > > IMO a really good deal on an 18 Mhz FPJ11-AA. Those don't seem to come up > much . Hmm, untested and no returns... is that typical of sellers (and do buyers generally take the line that "it's DEC and built like a tank, so it's probably OK" :-) ? From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Jul 2 13:18:32 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 19:18:32 +0100 Subject: DEC FPJ11-AA In-Reply-To: References: <20180702023847.1553318C0A1@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <744ed8dd-6bb7-56e1-cb28-169746f01206@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/07/2018 14:17, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > On 07/02/2018 08:34 AM, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote: >> Bill would want the -JD (2MB) version >> (the -JE version is 4MB so too big). > Or a pair of the 1 meg ore did they go away before the 11/93 came out? My oopsie; the MSV11-J is either 1MB or 2MB. I was thinking of MSV11-Q (which is QBus only). -- Pete Pete Turnbull From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 2 14:57:39 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 14:57:39 -0500 Subject: VT100 keyboards for parts/repair Message-ID: <043501d4123e$ee78e640$cb6ab2c0$@com> I have 2 in stock. https://www.elecshopper.com/dec-vt100-keyboard-for-parts-or-repair.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 2 15:54:32 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:54:32 -0500 Subject: VT100 keyboards for parts/repair In-Reply-To: <043501d4123e$ee78e640$cb6ab2c0$@com> References: <043501d4123e$ee78e640$cb6ab2c0$@com> Message-ID: <046901d41246$e12bc5e0$a38351a0$@com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics Plus via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 2:58 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: VT100 keyboards for parts/repair I have 2 in stock. https://www.elecshopper.com/dec-vt100-keyboard-for-parts-or-repair.html Both are sold now; that was fast! --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:02:47 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 21:02:47 +0000 Subject: Looking for North star software Message-ID: I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. I'd really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. Dwight From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:20:01 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:20:01 +0200 Subject: downthebunker bazaar, new domain Message-ID: we have recently bought a domain http://www.downthebunker.xyz and a subdomain http://deals.downthebunker.xyz/ you can reach us there :) I am also working on a new engine, and probably we will also add HTTPS thanks From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:21:14 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:21:14 +0200 Subject: Motorola MC68882 user manual (paper copy) Message-ID: hi I am looking for a paper copy of the Motorola MC68882 user manual (it's a floating point unit) let me know if you have for sale thanks From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:23:10 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:23:10 +0200 Subject: XpressWare v8.1 or above (software for Tektronix X11 terminals) Message-ID: hi, In 1990s Tektronix produced digital video X terminal and introduced X server software based on VxWorks v5 (Windriver). Later they introduced a new line of terminals, at some point a company called NCD bought the Tektronix X11-terminals division and started to produce their own line, called NCD-terminals with a software called "NCD-bridge" Anyway, both the 200-series and the 400-series of the Tektronix X11 terminals boot from a directory on a server via NFS or TFTP, either way, you need to create a directory for the terminal to boot from, and install a number of files. These files are provided as "Tektronix XpressWare version 8.0 (or later)". The 200-series can bootstrap from v7 ( one of the member of my team owns an original CD), but the 200-series needs the v8 or later (we don't have). Unofficially, you might look for NCD, the Company who bought the X-terminals division from Tektronix; they had (note the past tense) some software in the form of patches, accessible by anonymous ftp. There aren't any complete releases, but there were archives which contains much that is useful to be found in the ftp, in particular patches containing bits of version 8.1 of XpressWare; enough to form the basis of a working installation. Unfortunately, the archive is gone, no more available. Let me know if you have the software or if you know where/how to find it, otherwise, X11-terminals like X400 can't be functional. Thanks From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 16:25:37 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:25:37 +0200 Subject: VT100 keyboards for parts/repair In-Reply-To: <046901d41246$e12bc5e0$a38351a0$@com> References: <043501d4123e$ee78e640$cb6ab2c0$@com> <046901d41246$e12bc5e0$a38351a0$@com> Message-ID: they went so fast because you are the best :D p.s. is there a way to extract your auctions? In XML or something? I'd love to promote them in our new Bazaar it would be cool to have them properly indexed by the new engine I am working at 2018-07-02 22:54 GMT+02:00 Electronics Plus via cctalk : > > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Electronics > Plus via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 02, 2018 2:58 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: VT100 keyboards for parts/repair > > I have 2 in stock. > > https://www.elecshopper.com/dec-vt100-keyboard-for-parts-or-repair.html > > > > Both are sold now; that was fast! > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 2 16:27:58 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 16:27:58 -0500 Subject: Old WANG terminal keyboard Message-ID: <049501d4124b$8c6c6c30$a5454490$@com> No part number or date is visible. Complete, but not cleaned or tested. I have no idea what it went to. https://www.elecshopper.com/old-wang-terminal-keyboard.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:27:09 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:27:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot > software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. I'd > really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. Sounds like fun! What model Northstar? Once you get some images, have you worked out a way to get the images onto hard-sector disks? AFTER you boot the machine, with some minimal programs, you can transfer data into the machine through serial port. From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jul 2 17:35:45 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 17:35:45 -0500 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> Message-ID: <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> On 7/2/2018 7:51 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Jul 1, 2018, at 10:29 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: >> >> The Moravian Galley in Brno has an exhibition on "Computer Art 1968". >> The only actual computer is a very well-preserved German LGP-30. I >> took a few photos of it yesterday... and got told off for handling the >> paper tape, > Asking people not to touch museum exhibits makes sense to me. Seriously! Liam, don't you know that handling paper with your hands transfers oils to it and hastens its decay? This is why gloves are worn to handle old paper artifacts. - J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 17:43:15 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 15:43:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: >>> The Moravian Galley in Brno has an exhibition on "Computer Art 1968". >>> The only actual computer is a very well-preserved German LGP-30. I >>> took a few photos of it yesterday... and got told off for handling the >>> paper tape, >> Asking people not to touch museum exhibits makes sense to me. On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, js--- via cctalk wrote: > Seriously! Liam, don't you know that handling paper with your hands > transfers oils to it and hastens its decay? This is why gloves are worn to > handle old paper artifacts. Seriously! Don't they know that if it is within reach, then the museum attendees will reach over and handle? velvet ropes and glass cases Muir Woods is now a TREE MUSEUM!, with paved fenced walkways to keep people from touching the ancient redwoods. And they charge more than a dollar and a half just to see 'em. How can you balance the hands-on aspect that is so ESSENTIAL to the experience? From js at cimmeri.com Mon Jul 2 18:00:19 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Mon, 02 Jul 2018 18:00:19 -0500 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5B3AAE83.8040707@cimmeri.com> On 7/2/2018 5:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> The Moravian Galley in Brno has an >>>> exhibition on "Computer Art 1968". >>>> The only actual computer is a very >>>> well-preserved German LGP-30. I >>>> took a few photos of it >>>> yesterday... and got told off for >>>> handling the >>>> paper tape, >>> Asking people not to touch museum >>> exhibits makes sense to me. > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, js--- via cctalk > wrote: >> Seriously! Liam, don't you know that >> handling paper with your hands >> transfers oils to it and hastens its >> decay? This is why gloves are worn >> to handle old paper artifacts. > > Seriously! Don't they know that if it > is within reach, then the museum > attendees will reach over and handle? > velvet ropes and glass cases > Muir Woods is now a TREE MUSEUM!, with > paved fenced walkways to keep people > from touching the ancient redwoods. > And they charge more than a dollar and > a half just to see 'em. > > How can you balance the hands-on > aspect that is so ESSENTIAL to the > experience? > Yes, but Liam is no ordinary museum attendee - he should have the experience to know better :-D Fred, I guess the rarity and cost of restoration of something determines whether it can be presented for hands-on experiences or not, as well as taking into account what the goals of the particular museum are. Museums are not under any particular obligation to have hands-on exhibits, as that option only raises their operating costs. Museums are typically show & tell... not show, share, and tell. Those who must have the full experience, buy their own examples. - J. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:16:45 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 00:16:45 +0000 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it is not an impossible task. The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has BASIC in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I should be able to put something together under CP/M. It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there so I don't know how they are being captured. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 3:27:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for North star software On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot > software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. I'd > really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. Sounds like fun! What model Northstar? Once you get some images, have you worked out a way to get the images onto hard-sector disks? AFTER you boot the machine, with some minimal programs, you can transfer data into the machine through serial port. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 19:27:21 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:27:21 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mike Douglas has a bunch of North Star utilities that you can use to "bare metal bootstrap" disks: http://deramp.com/northstar.html Unless you have a stockpile of hard-sector disks, you probably also want his Virtual Sector Generator board: http://deramp.com/vsg.html Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 8:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it is not > an impossible task. > > The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has BASIC > in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I should be able to > put something together under CP/M. > > It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there so I > don't know how they are being captured. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via > cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 3:27:09 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot > > software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. I'd > > really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. > > Sounds like fun! > > What model Northstar? > > Once you get some images, have you worked out a way to get the images onto > hard-sector disks? > > AFTER you boot the machine, with some minimal programs, you can transfer > data into the machine through serial port. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 19:48:37 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 17:48:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight wrote: > I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it is > not an impossible task. It can be done. It has been done. It is not the easiest. A friend did it, but he died 4 years ago, and his stuff is GONE. There should be GOOGLE reachable stories of how people have done it, and some .ASM or .HEX files of useful utilities. > The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has > BASIC in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I should > be able to put something together under CP/M. If you have CP/M, in a bootable form, then the utilities that come with CP/M (PIP, LOAD, SAVE, . . . ) can be coerced into creating a bootstrapping program to bring stuff over, to bring over more versatile utilities, etc. PIP.COM, alas, is not an internal command. If you use a PC as your terminal, you can come up with ways to move code. You can PIP from the console. (to bring over a .ASM or .HEX file) > It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there so I > don't know how they are being captured. The images are probably created on a NorthStar. There exist some rather rare hardware boards for PC to read/write hard sector. Not easily available. It may be possible to use a flux-transition board that has access to the index signal and write code to do it. BUT, the Horizon can also manage 8" drives (SSSD soft-sector CP/M standard!) with appropriate controller, or use other S100 FDC boards. Once the CP/M system is up, there are utilities that have been written for it (some assembly required), for serial port transfer. I have no idea what's available for NorthStar-DOS, but there is probably something around. I think that the original drives of the Horizon were Shugart SA400, but Tandon TM100-x should work just fine. Good luck, -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 21:00:44 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:00:44 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f4c6c9e-59a7-23b8-a99d-90e5ea7c99a4@gmail.com> There is also NS* DOS very easy to find.? Basic DOS has the os, several Monitors, and Basic. People have it in IMD and a few other forms but making a disk is the real challenge as NO PC can do the hard sector.? There are two formats all 5.25" SD 10sectors of 256byts and 35 tracks.? The other is 10sectors of 512byts and 35/40/and two sided flavors.? They are all 10 sector(holes) and hard sector. Make sure it works with NS-DOS. as thats easiest to replace if the controller is munged. Allison On 07/02/2018 08:16 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it is not an impossible task. > > The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has BASIC in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I should be able to put something together under CP/M. > > It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there so I don't know how they are being captured. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 2, 2018 3:27:09 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot >> software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. I'd >> really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. > Sounds like fun! > > What model Northstar? > > Once you get some images, have you worked out a way to get the images onto > hard-sector disks? > > AFTER you boot the machine, with some minimal programs, you can transfer > data into the machine through serial port. From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 21:11:59 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:11:59 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/02/2018 08:48 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight wrote: >> I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it >> is not an impossible task. > > It can be done.? It has been done.? It is not the easiest. > A friend did it, but he died 4 years ago, and his stuff is GONE. > There should be GOOGLE reachable stories of how people have done it, > and some .ASM or .HEX files of useful utilities. > >> The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has >> BASIC in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I >> should be able to put something together under CP/M. > > If you have CP/M, in a bootable form, then the utilities that come > with CP/M (PIP, LOAD, SAVE, . . . ) can be coerced into creating a > bootstrapping program to bring stuff over, to bring over more > versatile utilities, etc.?? PIP.COM, alas, is not an internal command. > If you use a PC as your terminal, you can come up with ways to move code. > You can PIP from the console.?? (to bring over a .ASM or .HEX file) > PIP can be patched to be a modem handler. >> It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there >> so I don't know how they are being captured. > > The images are probably created on a NorthStar. > > There exist some rather rare hardware boards for PC to read/write hard > sector.? Not easily available. > It may be possible to use a flux-transition board that has access to > the index signal and write code to do it. > BUT, the Horizon can also manage 8" drives (SSSD soft-sector CP/M > standard!) with appropriate controller, or use other S100 FDC boards. Really? not any of the MDS (SD or DD) controllers as they only know hard sector.??? A Soft sector controller with rom on board then the situation changes.? Plan B is? a CPU with local eprom and use that as the system monitor to boot stuff to disk. The standard NS controllers have only a small rom enough to boot a NS SD or DD floppy using their controller where the roms are. > > Once the CP/M system is up, there are utilities that have been written > for it (some assembly required), for serial port transfer. > IF you hae CP/M and bootable with Asm, DDt and PIP life gets real easy.? Check Dave Dunfields site for a s100/NS emulator that runs images (NS dos, CP/M and more) that can be serially down loaded from the emulator though the PC. > I have no idea what's available for NorthStar-DOS, but there is > probably something around. > There is a lot of site with software , your friend google.?? I already mentioned Dave donefields old computers. Harte has some stuff too.? NS* systems were popular. > > I think that the original drives of the Horizon were Shugart SA400, > but Tandon TM100-x should work just fine. > Either one and many others can be subbed in. I have two NS* Horizons, one I assembled late 77 and the other nearly 30 years ago.? Both work.? Biggest issue is media as 10 hole hard sector stuff is just plain scarce.??? The older of mine runs a MDC4 765 based soft sector controller and is an active highly modded CPM system.? The other is vanilla and tucked away. Allison > > Good luck, > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred???????????? cisin at xenosoft.com From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 2 21:14:53 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:14:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180703021453.5E33918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, I'm looking for engineering info on the MSV11-J. I was unable to find any prints online, or even a technical manual. (I have the User Manual, but it doesn't have much detail.) The main issue I'm after is working out which bits go into which chips. I have some other QBUS memory boards with no documentation where I created the mapping by just pulling chips, e.g.: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Q-RAM_11 but, alas, on all the MSV11-J's I've seen, the DRAM chips are not socketed - unlike QBUS memory boards by almost all the other manufacturers (e.g. National Semiconductor, Camintonn, etc - in fact, pretty much everyone _except_ DEC). Anyway, if anyone _does_ have an MSV11-J with the chips in sockets, I'd _really_ appreciate hearing from them! I'm not sure it's going to be possible to work it out from looking at board traces, since the MSV11-J is ECC memory, and I expect all the data lines just disappear into the two huge gate array chips. Anyway, I would appreciate hearing from anyone with anything on the MSV11-J. Noel From derek.newland at gmail.com Mon Jul 2 22:18:01 2018 From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 23:18:01 -0400 Subject: Old WANG terminal keyboard In-Reply-To: <049501d4124b$8c6c6c30$a5454490$@com> References: <049501d4124b$8c6c6c30$a5454490$@com> Message-ID: Appears to be from a Wang VM7681: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a5/d1/84/a5d184de569a605cf8542a57eed3a443.jpg On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 5:28 PM Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > No part number or date is visible. Complete, but not cleaned or tested. > > I have no idea what it went to. > > https://www.elecshopper.com/old-wang-terminal-keyboard.html > > > > > > Cindy Croxton > > Electronics Plus > > 1613 Water Street > > Kerrville, TX 78028 > > 830-370-3239 cell > > sales at elecplus.com > > > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > -- *Derek Newland* | Save the Machine | (828) 234-4731 | derek at savethemachine.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 2 22:31:30 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 20:31:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> BUT, the Horizon can also manage 8" drives (SSSD soft-sector CP/M >> standard!) with appropriate controller, or use other S100 FDC boards. On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: > Really? not any of the MDS (SD or DD) controllers as they only know hard > sector.?????? A Soft sector controller with rom > on board then the situation changes.?? Plan B is?? a CPU with local eprom > and use that as the system monitor to boot > stuff to disk. > The standard NS controllers have only a small rom enough to boot a NS SD > or DD floppy using their controller > where the roms are. > . . . > ????? The older > of mine runs a MDC4 765 based soft sector > controller and is an active highly modded CPM system.?? The other is > vanilla and tucked away. Really, I just assumed that you could install a non-NorthStar disk controller, in addition to the stock one, or maybe instead, in order to be able to do soft-sector. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 00:16:39 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 22:16:39 -0700 Subject: MSV11-J engineering info In-Reply-To: <20180703021453.5E33918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180703021453.5E33918C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 7:14 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Hi, I'm looking for engineering info on the MSV11-J. I was unable to find any > prints online, or even a technical manual. (I have the User Manual, but it doesn't > have much detail.) > The main issue I'm after is working out which bits go into which chips. I > have some other QBUS memory boards with no documentation where I created the > mapping by just pulling chips, e.g.: > I'm not sure it's going to be possible to work it out from looking at board > traces, since the MSV11-J is ECC memory, and I expect all the data lines just > disappear into the two huge gate array chips. > There are 88 41256 256Kx1 DRAMs on a 2MB MSV11-J. Each 512KB bank has 22 256Kx1 DRAMs organized as 16 data bits plus 6 ECC bits. If someone was sufficiently motivated I suppose they could probe each of the 88 DRAMs while writing various bit patterns of data to various memory locations and work out the mapping that way. From a brief look at the manual it might be possible to use diagnostic modes to write specific ECC bit patterns and work out the ECC bit mappings as well. Might be very tedious, so might need lots of motivation. I'm not sure which would be more work, probing one or a small number of DRAMs at a time, or hooking up an old school large channel count logic analyzer to probe all 88 DRAMs at the same time. (You can get around 200 data channels with a couple of HP 16550A modules or three HP 16555A modules in an HP 16500 or 16700 series mainframe). If I ever get really bored some day maybe I'd take a look and try to see just how tedious it might be. From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Jul 3 03:58:10 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:58:10 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, "js at cimmeri.com" wrote: > Seriously! Liam, don't you know that handling paper with your hands > transfers oils to it and hastens its decay? This is why gloves are worn to > handle old paper artifacts. *lol* Especially with oiled paper tape that is exposed to daylight and much more. Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 05:06:34 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 06:06:34 -0400 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 4:58 AM Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, "js at cimmeri.com" wrote: > > Seriously! Liam, don't you know that handling paper with your hands > > transfers oils to it and hastens its decay? This is why gloves are worn > to > > handle old paper artifacts. > > *lol* > Especially with oiled paper tape that is exposed to daylight and much > more. > > Christian > And wouldn't it be possible that tape strewn artistically is just that, a prop? Especially given the pattern on the tape? Who would display the real thing that way? Bill > From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 05:42:46 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 12:42:46 +0200 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2018 at 12:08, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > And wouldn't it be possible that tape strewn artistically is just that, a > prop? Especially given the pattern on the tape? Who would display the > real thing that way? Exactly! :-) It looked like a dummy to me, artfully arranged. Also, AFAICT, it was very new tape. If it was original, aged, and had any visible data, I literally wouldn't have touched it. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Jul 2 17:09:47 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 2 Jul 2018 18:09:47 -0400 Subject: Revealing a new project (non-VCF) Message-ID: <118f7969-e9fc-481f-0522-45db4ebdd26b@snarc.net> Time to reveal a personal project related to vintage computing and unrelated to my role at VCFed. In the past two years, while getting neck-deep in the historic Lego 9700 "Technic Control Center" set, I learned that there is a TON of information about this set (and about various related sets) -- but most of that information is missing from the web or at best scattered. What these programmable robotic sets all have in common is they're all from the 10 years BEFORE the modern Mindstorms series, and they run on vintage computers! I decided a few months ago to make a web site about it. I call the site www.mindsbeforethestorm.com. The site is under construction but you can visit now and see where it is going. I'm asking for contributions to the project. I make a very modest living through my work as a freelance tech journalist and additionally through VCFed fundraising. Many of you will also recall that a personal fundraiser is what enabled publishing of my computer history book in 2015. That was a positive experience. I do not plan to sell anything on this new site, only to offer helpful information that isn't currently available or is very difficult to find. As such, I cannot promise any Kickstarter-style rewards: I don't have any ideas about what a good reward for this might be (open to suggestions). Instead, I appeal to your altruism: fund this project because it is a good thing. Please visit my new site. If you think it exemplifies how the web should be used, if you'd like to see it get finished, and if you would like me to continue to be able to pay my rent and eat food, then please make a contribution via https://fundrazr.com/61N3ef?ref=ab_74VRia. Thanks, -Evan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 07:05:51 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:05:51 +0100 Subject: Revealing a new project (non-VCF) In-Reply-To: <118f7969-e9fc-481f-0522-45db4ebdd26b@snarc.net> References: <118f7969-e9fc-481f-0522-45db4ebdd26b@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 2, 2018 at 11:09 PM, Evan Koblentz via cctalk wrote: > Time to reveal a personal project related to vintage computing and unrelated > to my role at VCFed. > > In the past two years, while getting neck-deep in the historic Lego 9700 > "Technic Control Center" set, I learned that there is a TON of information > about this set (and about various related sets) -- but most of that > information is missing from the web or at best scattered. > > What these programmable robotic sets all have in common is they're all from > the 10 years BEFORE the modern Mindstorms series, and they run on vintage > computers! > > I decided a few months ago to make a web site about it. I call the site > www.mindsbeforethestorm.com. The site is under construction but you can > visit now and see where it is going. One thing struck me from looking at your schematic of the Apple ][ interface card (you know me, always looking at the schematics first...) That card is essentally a 6522 VIA with port B linked to a 20 pin header. The BBC micro has a user port which is port B of a 6522 linked to a 20 pin header, and I've just checked the 'Advanced User Guide' and the connections are essentially a superset of those on your Apple ][ board (pns 2 and 4 would be the CB1 and CB2 lines on a BBC). It is my guess that the BBC micro version of this system used the Lego interface box, but connected it straight to the user port on the BBC. -tony From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 08:05:23 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:05:23 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> On 07/02/2018 11:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> BUT, the Horizon can also manage 8" drives (SSSD soft-sector CP/M >>> standard!) with appropriate controller, or use other S100 FDC boards. > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: >> Really? not any of the MDS (SD or DD) controllers as they only know hard >> sector.??? A Soft sector controller with rom >> on board then the situation changes.? Plan B is? a CPU with local eprom >> and use that as the system monitor to boot >> stuff to disk. >> The standard NS controllers have only a small rom enough to boot a NS SD >> or DD floppy using their controller >> where the roms are. >> . . . ??? The older >> of mine runs a MDC4 765 based soft sector >> controller and is an active highly modded CPM system.? The other is >> vanilla and tucked away. > > Really, I just assumed that you could install a non-NorthStar disk > controller, in addition to the stock one, or maybe instead, in order > to be able to do soft-sector. You can but none of the NS* software will recognize it and it effectively makes the Horizon just another nice S100 crate. The NS* software is well wrapped around the hard sector controller which is actually crude but effective. Unplug the disk controller and the system has no rom or front panel.? Its why I have two.? One is a basic 56K NS horizon where the only board not NS* is the static 64K ram card. The other is NS* horizon box and mother board aka the bus has all the IO for serial, parallel and hearbeat interrupt at one end. But a faster Z80 card (10MHZ modded compupro) 256K of ram, hard disk controller, soft sector controller (765based) and several slave controllers for moving stuff and printer buffering.??? A lot of the NS systems were improved with soft sector controllers and a phantom rom card if the controller didn't have one.? The box was good quality fair cooling and a beefy power supply. Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 08:14:50 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:14:50 +0000 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> References: , <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 6:05:23 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Looking for North star software On 07/02/2018 11:31 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> BUT, the Horizon can also manage 8" drives (SSSD soft-sector CP/M >>> standard!) with appropriate controller, or use other S100 FDC boards. > > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, allison via cctalk wrote: >> Really? not any of the MDS (SD or DD) controllers as they only know hard >> sector. A Soft sector controller with rom >> on board then the situation changes. Plan B is a CPU with local eprom >> and use that as the system monitor to boot >> stuff to disk. >> The standard NS controllers have only a small rom enough to boot a NS SD >> or DD floppy using their controller >> where the roms are. >> . . . ? The older >> of mine runs a MDC4 765 based soft sector >> controller and is an active highly modded CPM system. The other is >> vanilla and tucked away. > > Really, I just assumed that you could install a non-NorthStar disk > controller, in addition to the stock one, or maybe instead, in order > to be able to do soft-sector. You can but none of the NS* software will recognize it and it effectively makes the Horizon just another nice S100 crate. The NS* software is well wrapped around the hard sector controller which is actually crude but effective. Unplug the disk controller and the system has no rom or front panel. Its why I have two. One is a basic 56K NS horizon where the only board not NS* is the static 64K ram card. The other is NS* horizon box and mother board aka the bus has all the IO for serial, parallel and hearbeat interrupt at one end. But a faster Z80 card (10MHZ modded compupro) 256K of ram, hard disk controller, soft sector controller (765based) and several slave controllers for moving stuff and printer buffering. A lot of the NS systems were improved with soft sector controllers and a phantom rom card if the controller didn't have one. The box was good quality fair cooling and a beefy power supply. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 3 08:51:07 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:51:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180703135107.3138218C08F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > There are 88 41256 256Kx1 DRAMs on a 2MB MSV11-J. Each 512KB bank has > 22 256Kx1 DRAMs organized as 16 data bits plus 6 ECC bits. Umm, I think the internal organization is paired banks (one for even word addresses, one for odd); the manual talks about doing double-word reads (although only one word gets transferred over the bus at a time, but the PMI has some optimization for double-word cycles, IIRC). > If someone was sufficiently motivated I suppose they could probe each > of the 88 DRAMs while writing various bit patterns of data to various > memory locations and work out the mapping that way. ... I'm not sure > which would be more work, probing one or a small number of DRAMs at a > time Oh, that's an improvement on what I was thinking of as a fall-back, if nobody has the info (which was to tie the outputs of individual DRAM chips high or low - depending on how they implement their output stages - through a suitably-sized resistor, and look to see what effect it had on writing and then reading - all 0's or 1's, depending on the tie - still a lot less work than pulling chips :-). Dunno why it wasn't obvious this would be easier! :-) I would/will just write a two-instruction loop (in the PARs) which writes a word with only a single '1' bit, hook up a 'scope (I'm too lazy to hook up a logic analyzer :-) to a DRAM input, and walk the bit through the odd and even words until I see it on the 'scope. I thought about doing the ECC bits first, using the maintenance mode (to walk a '1' through the ECC bits), to avoid getting confused by 1's being written to them during the above process, but that would be a lot more work, since I'd have to look at all the chips in the array to find the one that's getting the '1' ECC bit. It'll probably be a lot easier to just disable ECC, and write all 0's to all the ECC bits while doing the data bit discovery (above); once those are done, the remaining chips are known to be ECC, and I can walk a '1' through the ECC bits to work them out. > From a brief look at the manual it might be possible to use diagnostic > modes to write specific ECC bit patterns and work out the ECC bit > mappings as well. Yup, that was my take too. Although I'm having to re-read the manual a few times to fully grok how all the various mode bits interact! > Might be very tedious, so might need lots of motivation. I think that using the procedure above, it'll go reasonably quickly, actually; the more bits I ID, the fewer values I'll have to try on each succeding DRAM chip. > If I ever get really bored some day maybe I'd take a look and try to > see just how tedious it might be. I'm going to need this info real soon (to hopefully fix a broken MSV11-J), so I'll probably start on this later today if nobody has the info. I'll add the info to the MSV11-J page on the CHWiki, once I have it. Noel From js at cimmeri.com Tue Jul 3 10:10:35 2018 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 10:10:35 -0500 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <5B3B91EB.6050705@cimmeri.com> On 7/3/2018 3:58 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, "js at cimmeri.com" > wrote: >> Seriously! Liam, don't you know that >> handling paper with your hands >> transfers oils to it and hastens its >> decay? This is why gloves are worn >> to handle old paper artifacts. > > *lol* > Especially with oiled paper tape that > is exposed to daylight and much more. > > Christian Different kind of oils, Christian. What humans leach isn't petroleum-based, and it degrades and carries and attracts bacteria. - J. From jim.manley at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 10:25:59 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:25:59 -0600 Subject: Preserved LGP-30 In-Reply-To: <5B3B91EB.6050705@cimmeri.com> References: <8867327A-CE1C-4D23-82BD-9491207FB6EA@comcast.net> <5B3AA8C1.7020002@cimmeri.com> <5B3B91EB.6050705@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: The degradation and attracting bacteria is also why geeks don?t get to handle humans ... well, the halitosis, body odor, long hair/beards, etc., probably don?t help, either! ?? All the Best, Jim On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 9:09 AM js--- via cctalk wrote: > > Different kind of oils, Christian. What humans leach isn't > petroleum-based, and it degrades and carries and attracts bacteria. > - J. > From brain at jbrain.com Tue Jul 3 12:26:19 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 12:26:19 -0500 Subject: MOS 6500/1 ROM archival service Message-ID: I realize it's been a while since this happened: http://e4aws.silverdr.com/hacks/6500_1/ But, I have pulled my hacked reader out from mothballs to read a CPU someone is sending, so I thought I would inquire if others have 6500/1 units that want read. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 13:08:18 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:08:18 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: , <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch > I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but will need modification for the H89 disk controller. Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got the H89 writing disks from them! Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can then continue on it. From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:21:35 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:21:35 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board Message-ID: I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed up. I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting thread on vcfed. With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I see weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the service manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I see oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that I could buy? Thanks, Monty From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 15:35:26 2018 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:35:26 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead of treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers for that board, and they are complete. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. > > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed > up. > > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting thread > on vcfed. > > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I see > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the service > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I see > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. > > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that I > could buy? > > Thanks, > Monty > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 3 16:01:12 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:01:12 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Is 206 Washington ? I have the remains of a 4051 4052 and 4010 terminal sitting outside in the scrap pile. Parts have gone to Europe but they're still pieces left over They were about 25 miles west of Portland Oregon. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead of > treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers for > that board, and they are complete. > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. > > > > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed > > up. > > > > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting > thread > > on vcfed. > > > > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I > see > > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the > service > > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I > see > > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. > > > > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that I > > could buy? > > > > Thanks, > > Monty > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 3 16:19:02 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 14:19:02 -0700 Subject: Fwd: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message --------- From: Pete Lancashire Date: Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:18 PM Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board To: Monty McGraw Yeah the two display boards went to Europe. If anybody needs three perfectly good 11 inch CRTs, deflection yolks excetera come to Portland Oregon and they're yours or have somebody pick them up for you they're in the scrap pile and scrap is going in about a month. Each CRT contains about $35 worth of gold. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:12 PM Monty McGraw wrote: > Pete, > > I'm in Texas near Houston. > > The Display Board is the vertical board to the left of the CRT. It has > several cables at the bottom to pin headers and the cable to the neck of > the CRT. > It also has connectors to the power transistors that simply unplug when > you remove the Display Board. > > Here is a picture of a display board: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNOFZacFZSYVJwaHc/view?usp=sharing > > Monty > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > >> Is 206 Washington ? I have the remains of a 4051 4052 and 4010 terminal >> sitting outside in the scrap pile. Parts have gone to Europe but they're >> still pieces left over >> >> >> They were about 25 miles west of Portland Oregon. >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead of >>> treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers for >>> that board, and they are complete. >>> >>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>> > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. >>> > >>> > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are >>> messed >>> > up. >>> > >>> > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting >>> thread >>> > on vcfed. >>> > >>> > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I >>> see >>> > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the >>> service >>> > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope >>> I see >>> > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. >>> > >>> > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that I >>> > could buy? >>> > >>> > Thanks, >>> > Monty >>> > >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >>> >>> > From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:25:33 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 16:25:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Pete, Thanks for checking on the display board. Are any of the other boards, power supplies or keyboards left in the 4051 or 4052? Monty On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Pete Lancashire > Date: Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:18 PM > Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board > To: Monty McGraw > > > Yeah the two display boards went to Europe. > > If anybody needs three perfectly good 11 inch CRTs, deflection yolks > excetera come to Portland Oregon and they're yours or have somebody pick > them up for you they're in the scrap pile and scrap is going in about a > month. Each CRT contains about $35 worth of gold. > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:12 PM Monty McGraw wrote: > > > Pete, > > > > I'm in Texas near Houston. > > > > The Display Board is the vertical board to the left of the CRT. It has > > several cables at the bottom to pin headers and the cable to the neck of > > the CRT. > > It also has connectors to the power transistors that simply unplug when > > you remove the Display Board. > > > > Here is a picture of a display board: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNOFZacFZSYVJwaHc/ > view?usp=sharing > > > > Monty > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Pete Lancashire > > > wrote: > > > >> Is 206 Washington ? I have the remains of a 4051 4052 and 4010 terminal > >> sitting outside in the scrap pile. Parts have gone to Europe but they're > >> still pieces left over > >> > >> > >> They were about 25 miles west of Portland Oregon. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead > of > >>> treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers > for > >>> that board, and they are complete. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. > >>> > > >>> > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are > >>> messed > >>> > up. > >>> > > >>> > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting > >>> thread > >>> > on vcfed. > >>> > > >>> > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so > I > >>> see > >>> > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the > >>> service > >>> > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope > >>> I see > >>> > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. > >>> > > >>> > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that > I > >>> > could buy? > >>> > > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > Monty > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian Finder > >>> (206) 395-MIPS > >>> ian.finder at gmail.com > >>> > >>> > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 16:55:19 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:55:19 +0000 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Hi Monty, My 4051, which I have had for a couple of years now, has failed with a display problem very similar to yours, likely a power supply issue. The characters all look funny, but I am able to type in a 10 PRINT "HELLO" 20 GOTO 10 and it fills the screen, so at least the processor is running. I will open it up in the coming days. I will take pictures and scope shots, and let you know what I find. Good luck, fellow 405x owner! Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Monty McGraw via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 2:25 PM To: Pete Lancashire; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board Pete, Thanks for checking on the display board. Are any of the other boards, power supplies or keyboards left in the 4051 or 4052? Monty On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ---------- Forwarded message --------- > From: Pete Lancashire > Date: Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:18 PM > Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board > To: Monty McGraw > > > Yeah the two display boards went to Europe. > > If anybody needs three perfectly good 11 inch CRTs, deflection yolks > excetera come to Portland Oregon and they're yours or have somebody pick > them up for you they're in the scrap pile and scrap is going in about a > month. Each CRT contains about $35 worth of gold. > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:12 PM Monty McGraw wrote: > > > Pete, > > > > I'm in Texas near Houston. > > > > The Display Board is the vertical board to the left of the CRT. It has > > several cables at the bottom to pin headers and the cable to the neck of > > the CRT. > > It also has connectors to the power transistors that simply unplug when > > you remove the Display Board. > > > > Here is a picture of a display board: > > https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNOFZacFZSYVJwaHc/ [https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/GizYrL4sWJr7c9n5zFCwd8m1UP22bKXbcwOpG7s44ZLsQHpKBJ_50g=w1200-h630-p] GAS6800A_CRT2.JPG drive.google.com > view?usp=sharing > > > > Monty > > > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Pete Lancashire > > > wrote: > > > >> Is 206 Washington ? I have the remains of a 4051 4052 and 4010 terminal > >> sitting outside in the scrap pile. Parts have gone to Europe but they're > >> still pieces left over > >> > >> > >> They were about 25 miles west of Portland Oregon. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > >> wrote: > >> > >>> These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead > of > >>> treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers > for > >>> that board, and they are complete. > >>> > >>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < > >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> > >>> > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. > >>> > > >>> > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are > >>> messed > >>> > up. > >>> > > >>> > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting > >>> thread > >>> > on vcfed. > >>> > > >>> > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so > I > >>> see > >>> > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the > >>> service > >>> > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope > >>> I see > >>> > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. > >>> > > >>> > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that > I > >>> > could buy? > >>> > > >>> > Thanks, > >>> > Monty > >>> > > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian Finder > >>> (206) 395-MIPS > >>> ian.finder at gmail.com > >>> > >>> > > > From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 3 19:06:32 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:06:32 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94FE394A-188F-4E1D-BBD3-F87F5E8CBAC1@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jul-03, at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. > > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed > up. > > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting thread > on vcfed. > > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I see > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the service > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I see > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. > > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board that I > could buy? I take it you are referring to discussion and info from your post on may 27th at: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63656-Tektronix-4052-Troubleshooting/page2&highlight=4051 Re a comment in that discussion: The feedback loop in the op-amp circuitry is the negative-feedback gain-control loop. If you open that loop the gain will shoot off to -->infinity (in the real world, the highest the amplifier can do, the output would go binary rail-to-rail). If you noticing and wondering why the "negative" feedback loops around to the + input on the op-amp, it's because the output drivers provide a stage of inversion (specifically Q84/95). Note there are some mistakes in those Tek schematics around U184A/B. They are mixing up the pin numbering and +/- input labelling. There seems to be half-a-dozen variations on the deflection circuitry (was looking also at the 4051 service manual from bitsavers) and the error seems to morph around between the versions, like someone tried to fix it at one point but misunderstood and reintroduced at another. On this version you reffed: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1FQxqfVyOeA1BJjUS7b7X-FzL7Wb8g7q5/view they get it right. However, compare to: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TJjeZqszca1C7XILsnDyO9D_r64ZMwoo/view the 2 & 3 pin labels on U184A should be swapped. On another version on page 96 of the manual they have the +/- flipped on U184B. Suggestion re the problem: As you are seeing the oscillation at C196 on the common X/Y bias supply, I would try looking at Q186, in particular for a B-C short or leakage. A B-C short/leakage there would be adding C196 to the X output and could be providing the time constant for the ramp/oscillation. You could try scoping the B & C of Q186, if the signal and voltage levels there are similar, consider removing Q186 to resistance check it OOC. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 3 19:16:35 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 17:16:35 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: <94FE394A-188F-4E1D-BBD3-F87F5E8CBAC1@shaw.ca> References: <94FE394A-188F-4E1D-BBD3-F87F5E8CBAC1@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2018-Jul-03, at 5:06 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > However, compare to: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TJjeZqszca1C7XILsnDyO9D_r64ZMwoo/view > the 2 & 3 pin labels on U184A should be swapped. Whoops, correction to my correction, they got the pins right, but the +/- input labelling should be swapped there. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Jul 3 19:59:42 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2018 19:59:42 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B3C1BFE.1050003@pico-systems.com> On 07/03/2018 03:35 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. >> >> I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed >> up. >> >> I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting thread >> on vcfed. >> >> With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I see >> weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the service >> manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I see >> oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. >> >> If it is basically working, but just has oscillation, then it is almost certainly a capacitor issue. There are likely capacitors in the feedback loop to reduce bandwidth, and decoupling capacitors on the power rails. It would be fairly easy to track down the specific capacitors from the manual and check them. Jon From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 3 20:54:05 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 18:54:05 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: <5B3C1BFE.1050003@pico-systems.com> References: <5B3C1BFE.1050003@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1F4C71CE-F260-4570-A687-977B2506AA62@shaw.ca> On 2018-Jul-03, at 5:59 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 07/03/2018 03:35 PM, Ian Finder via cctalk wrote: >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. >>> >>> I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are messed >>> up. >>> >>> I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting thread >>> on vcfed. >>> >>> With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - so I see >>> weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the service >>> manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the scope I see >>> oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. >>> >>> > If it is basically working, but just has oscillation, then it is almost certainly a capacitor issue. > There are likely capacitors in the feedback loop to reduce bandwidth, and decoupling capacitors > on the power rails. It would be fairly easy to track down the specific capacitors from the manual and check them. I had the same initial thought, but Monty's msgs & scope trace show a solid ramp waveform down around 37Hz, not the higher F ringing or transient sort of sine oscillation one would expect from failed small-C bypass/suppression/etc. caps. It's more like a relaxation-oscillator type of activity. He's already replaced a couple of the larger-C caps in the circuit. From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Jul 3 23:08:03 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:08:03 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes but they're in pretty bad shape the units are under a tarp in a Briar Patch for about 2 years in the Pacific Northwest. Amazingly enough one of the deflection boards had enough working parts the CPU board for the 4051 was so corroded the lids fell off the chips. I only kept them to offer the CRTs. On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:25 PM Monty McGraw wrote: > Pete, > > Thanks for checking on the display board. > > Are any of the other boards, power supplies or keyboards left in the 4051 > or 4052? > > Monty > > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:19 PM, Pete Lancashire via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> ---------- Forwarded message --------- >> From: Pete Lancashire >> Date: Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:18 PM >> Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4051 or 4052 Display Board >> To: Monty McGraw >> >> >> Yeah the two display boards went to Europe. >> >> If anybody needs three perfectly good 11 inch CRTs, deflection yolks >> excetera come to Portland Oregon and they're yours or have somebody pick >> them up for you they're in the scrap pile and scrap is going in about a >> month. Each CRT contains about $35 worth of gold. >> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 2:12 PM Monty McGraw wrote: >> >> > Pete, >> > >> > I'm in Texas near Houston. >> > >> > The Display Board is the vertical board to the left of the CRT. It has >> > several cables at the bottom to pin headers and the cable to the neck of >> > the CRT. >> > It also has connectors to the power transistors that simply unplug when >> > you remove the Display Board. >> > >> > Here is a picture of a display board: >> > >> https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNOFZacFZSYVJwaHc/view?usp=sharing >> > >> > Monty >> > >> > On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Pete Lancashire < >> pete at petelancashire.com> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> Is 206 Washington ? I have the remains of a 4051 4052 and 4010 terminal >> >> sitting outside in the scrap pile. Parts have gone to Europe but >> they're >> >> still pieces left over >> >> >> >> >> >> They were about 25 miles west of Portland Oregon. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018, 1:35 PM Ian Finder via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> These systems are rare enough that it's probably worth fixing instead >> of >> >>> treating the board as a simple FRU. There are schematics on bitsavers >> for >> >>> that board, and they are complete. >> >>> >> >>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 1:21 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk < >> >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> > I've been repairing my Tektronix 4052. >> >>> > >> >>> > I've got the digital logic working - but the text and graphics are >> >>> messed >> >>> > up. >> >>> > >> >>> > I posted photos of the screens in my Tektronix 4052 troubleshooting >> >>> thread >> >>> > on vcfed. >> >>> > >> >>> > With a scope on the final X amplifier stage - it is oscillating - >> so I >> >>> see >> >>> > weird horizontal strokes instead of dots for text. I know from the >> >>> service >> >>> > manual that this circuit includes a feedback loop, and with the >> scope >> >>> I see >> >>> > oscillation all around the loop - so I haven't found the source. >> >>> > >> >>> > Does anyone have a spare Tektronix 4052 (or 4051) Display Board >> that I >> >>> > could buy? >> >>> > >> >>> > Thanks, >> >>> > Monty >> >>> > >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Ian Finder >> >>> (206) 395-MIPS >> >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >> >>> >> >>> >> > >> > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 3 23:39:05 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 04:39:05 +0000 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: , <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> , Message-ID: I'm told that the N* controller can write H89 formated disk but the H89 controller can't do N* format. I could have that backwards but that is what I recall. One can't do the other. The H89 hard sectored controller is single density only, while the newer N* can do both single and double density, still hard sectored though. There is always confusion on the N* controllers as to which can do double density. My research indicates that the MDC-nA are single density only and the MDC-nDA can do both ( n is a rev. number 1, 2, 3, or 4). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:08:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for North star software On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch > I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but will need modification for the H89 disk controller. Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got the H89 writing disks from them! Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can then continue on it. From stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 12:20:35 2018 From: stephen.m.pereira.sr at gmail.com (Stephen Pereira) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 13:20:35 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I believe that Mike Douglas has a utility program that you can get into a Northstar Horizon, and then it can receive a .DSK image sent from the terminal and it will write the disk for you in the Horizon. It?s called PCtoFlop and I think he has it in his archive here: http://deramp.com/downloads/north_star/ Good luck! smp - - - Stephen Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > ------------------------------ > > Message: 14 > Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 00:16:45 +0000 > From: dwight > To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > Message-ID: > > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > I was thinking someone has already done this. If no, as you say, it is not an impossible task. > > The TSS/B is suppose to be their scientific package. It at least has BASIC in it. I have another disk marked CP/M in the same box. I should be able to put something together under CP/M. > > It is a North Star Horizon. There seems to be some images out there so I don't know how they are being captured. > > Dwight > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 12:58:52 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 10:58:52 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, Stephen Pereira via cctech wrote: > I believe that Mike Douglas has a utility program that you can get into a Northstar Horizon, and then it can receive a .DSK image sent from the terminal and it will write the disk for you in the Horizon. > It?s called PCtoFlop and I think he has it in his archive here: > http://deramp.com/downloads/north_star/ > Good luck! You "get it into a NorthStar", by already booting the NorthStar to CP/M, and using PIP. It looks like an excellent way to handle more images, including N*-DOS, AFTER you have CP/M working. From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 08:13:57 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 09:13:57 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5ae3db6e-d343-9296-87be-d20dfb77249d@gmail.com> On 07/02/2018 06:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Mon, 2 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I have a machine that I'm just now bringing up. I have some boot >> software but it is TSS/A that is the accounting multi-user package. >> I'd really like the TSS/B floppies instead. I'd settle for images. > > Sounds like fun! > > What model Northstar? There are three basic systems: Horizon Single density Horizon Double density same as single save for newer controller. Advanatage, not s100! > > Once you get some images, have you worked out a way to get the images > onto hard-sector disks? > If you can get code into the box NS dos can write disks from memory images.? The based NS* horizon roms are minimal and only boot a disk.? The easy path is if everything works get a copy of NS* DOS and boot it.? Then IO via serial gets easy. > AFTER you boot the machine, with some minimal programs, you can > transfer data into the machine through serial port. Once NS*Dos or CP/M is there yes.? Until then the box is pretty useless. Plan B is get or make a Eprom board with a monitor utility into the 0000h or FXXXh ram block (max 4K). Plan B' get a cpu card with rom on it.? NOTE: pins 20 and 70 are grounded so any card that uses those pins will likely have to be modded. (those are memory protect and unprotect for that era, IEEE 696 reassigned them). Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Tue Jul 3 20:02:34 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 21:02:34 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7a061d9a-7a09-3c3d-92ee-1452561cb5e3@gmail.com> On 07/03/2018 01:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctech wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, Stephen Pereira via cctech wrote: >> I believe that Mike Douglas has a utility program that you can get >> into a Northstar Horizon, and then it can receive a .DSK image sent >> from the terminal and it will write the disk for you in the Horizon. >> It?s called PCtoFlop and I think he has it in his archive here: >> http://deramp.com/downloads/north_star/ >> >> Good luck! > > You "get it into a NorthStar", by already booting the NorthStar to > CP/M, and using PIP. > > It looks like an excellent way to handle more images, including > N*-DOS, AFTER you have CP/M working. > NO matter what first you have to boot the horizon and if you lack prepared media its a hard stop. Mike Douglass solved it by putting an Eprom on the ZPB-A as there is a spot for a 2708 1K part. He made up a header to use more common signal voltage parts like 2716/2732 and so on. With a machine language monitor that allows loading bytes to memory the process is then easy. Me I cheated and used a spare 64K memory board that used 2kx8 parts and put an eprom (2716) in the F000H space.? Change the CPU boot address jumpers from E800/E900 to F000h and now you can talk to it via serial port. The PCput and PCget are handy and no so big to hand insert. Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 3 21:08:26 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 19:08:26 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: <7a061d9a-7a09-3c3d-92ee-1452561cb5e3@gmail.com> References: <7a061d9a-7a09-3c3d-92ee-1452561cb5e3@gmail.com> Message-ID: >> You "get it into a NorthStar", by already booting the NorthStar to >> CP/M, and using PIP. On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, allison via cctech wrote: > NO matter what first you have to boot the horizon and if you lack > prepared media its a hard stop. > Mike Douglass solved it by putting an Eprom on the ZPB-A as there is a > spot for a 2708 1K part. > He made up a header to use more common signal voltage parts like > 2716/2732 and so on. > With a machine language monitor that allows loading bytes to memory the > process is then easy. > Me I cheated and used a spare 64K memory board that used 2kx8 parts and > put an eprom (2716) in > the F000H space.? Change the CPU boot address jumpers from E800/E900 to > F000h and now > you can talk to it via serial port. Thanks That answered several questions that I was wondering about! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 4 02:00:54 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 09:00:54 +0200 (CEST) Subject: MOS 6500/1 ROM archival service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, Jim Brain wrote: > But, I have pulled my hacked reader out from mothballs to read a CPU someone > is sending, so I thought I would inquire if others have 6500/1 units that > want read. Hint: Seagate ST-225 Christian From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 07:37:36 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 08:37:36 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: Yeah, you do need a monitor or something to get started on either Mike Douglas's solution or Dave Dunfield's NST. I've used both successfully. If you have hard-sectored disks, I can just make you a boot disk. I have both single and double density controllers. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:39 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm told that the N* controller can write H89 formated disk but the H89 > controller can't do N* format. I could have that backwards but that is what > I recall. One can't do the other. > > The H89 hard sectored controller is single density only, while the newer > N* can do both single and double density, still hard sectored though. There > is always confusion on the N* controllers as to which can do double > density. My research indicates that the MDC-nA are single density only and > the MDC-nDA can do both ( n is a rev. number 1, 2, 3, or 4). > > Dwight > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via > cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:08:18 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch > > I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. > > If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to > write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! > Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? > > .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but > will need modification for the H89 disk controller. > > Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got the > H89 writing disks from them! > > Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can > then continue on it. > > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 11:29:45 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:29:45 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/04/2018 12:39 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > I'm told that the N* controller can write H89 formated disk but the H89 controller can't do N* format. I could have that backwards but that is what I recall. One can't do the other. > > The H89 hard sectored controller is single density only, while the newer N* can do both single and double density, still hard sectored though. There is always confusion on the N* controllers as to which can do double density. My research indicates that the MDC-nA are single density only and the MDC-nDA can do both ( n is a rev. number 1, 2, 3, or 4). > > Dwight > I had two H89s and neitehr coud do NS* format either way.? THe controllers are very different. I've seen more of them with softsector boards in them. Allison > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:08:18 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > > On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch >> I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. > If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to > write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! > Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? > > .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but > will need modification for the H89 disk controller. > > Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got the > H89 writing disks from them! > > Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can > then continue on it. > > From allisonportable at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 11:35:53 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:35:53 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/04/2018 08:37 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, you do need a monitor or something to get started on either Mike > Douglas's solution or Dave Dunfield's NST. I've used both successfully. > > If you have hard-sectored disks, I can just make you a boot disk. I have > both single and double density controllers. Makes sure they are configured for the NS* native IO.? If they are not your still stuck as then the OS is looking for an IO board that is foreign. I know that as before the horizon I had the bare NS* MDS in the Altair using the SIO as serial.? Putting a boot monitor in is by far the easy way out.? I did that early on and it has serial transfer and embedded loader for soft sector controller. I rarely use the stock? NS* system but the older one with all the changes is still in use.? Hard disk (2x 31mb) makes it more useful. There is one excuse I use occasionally for pulling out the stock NS, UCSD Pascal.? The first IDE. Allison > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:39 AM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'm told that the N* controller can write H89 formated disk but the H89 >> controller can't do N* format. I could have that backwards but that is what >> I recall. One can't do the other. >> >> The H89 hard sectored controller is single density only, while the newer >> N* can do both single and double density, still hard sectored though. There >> is always confusion on the N* controllers as to which can do double >> density. My research indicates that the MDC-nA are single density only and >> the MDC-nDA can do both ( n is a rev. number 1, 2, 3, or 4). >> >> Dwight >> >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via >> cctalk >> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:08:18 AM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: Looking for North star software >> >> On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: >>> I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch >>> I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. >> If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to >> write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! >> Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? >> >> .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but >> will need modification for the H89 disk controller. >> >> Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got the >> H89 writing disks from them! >> >> Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can >> then continue on it. >> >> >> From brain at jbrain.com Wed Jul 4 11:51:41 2018 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 11:51:41 -0500 Subject: MOS 6500/1 ROM archival service In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6b08df84-cb30-a707-bcbe-4095bb6a2a84@jbrain.com> On 7/4/2018 2:00 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, Jim Brain wrote: >> But, I have pulled my hacked reader out from mothballs to read a CPU >> someone is sending, so I thought I would inquire if others have >> 6500/1 units that want read. > > Hint: Seagate ST-225 > > Christian More like giving away the secret :-) https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Seagate_ST225.jpg If anyone wants to send me one, I'll pop it into the reader and send back the data. Jim -- Jim Brain brain at jbrain.com www.jbrain.com From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 13:50:52 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 14:50:52 -0400 Subject: Looking for North star software In-Reply-To: References: <4b6f5d01-f299-3a0c-2c85-c98f6b5d191b@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've got a Horizon so native console is no problem. I originally got Dave Dunfield's NST working with my IMSAI and Dajen SCI monitor board, on a North Star MDC single-density controller. I couldn't get NST configured properly with the Dajen monitor (you're supposed to be able to give it a format for poking bytes into memory), so I ended up customizing Dave's RAMless 512 byte monitor for the SCI's serial port and getting loaded up that way. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:35 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 07/04/2018 08:37 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > Yeah, you do need a monitor or something to get started on either Mike > > Douglas's solution or Dave Dunfield's NST. I've used both successfully. > > > > If you have hard-sectored disks, I can just make you a boot disk. I have > > both single and double density controllers. > Makes sure they are configured for the NS* native IO. If they are not > your still > stuck as then the OS is looking for an IO board that is foreign. > > I know that as before the horizon I had the bare NS* MDS in the Altair > using the SIO as serial. > > Putting a boot monitor in is by far the easy way out. I did that early on > and it has serial transfer and embedded loader for soft sector controller. > > I rarely use the stock NS* system but the older one with all the changes > is still in use. Hard disk (2x 31mb) makes it more useful. > > There is one excuse I use occasionally for pulling out the stock NS, > UCSD Pascal. The first IDE. > > Allison > > > Thanks, > > Jonathan > > > > On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:39 AM, dwight via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> I'm told that the N* controller can write H89 formated disk but the H89 > >> controller can't do N* format. I could have that backwards but that is > what > >> I recall. One can't do the other. > >> > >> The H89 hard sectored controller is single density only, while the newer > >> N* can do both single and double density, still hard sectored though. > There > >> is always confusion on the N* controllers as to which can do double > >> density. My research indicates that the MDC-nA are single density only > and > >> the MDC-nDA can do both ( n is a rev. number 1, 2, 3, or 4). > >> > >> Dwight > >> > >> > >> > >> ________________________________ > >> From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin > via > >> cctalk > >> Sent: Tuesday, July 3, 2018 11:08:18 AM > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> Subject: Re: Looking for North star software > >> > >> On Tue, 3 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > >>> I'm not as worried about 10 hard secrtored disk. I still have the punch > >>> I had made for my H89. I can create 10 sector from old 360K disk. > >> If you have a working H89 (hard sectored), then you should be able to > >> write a program to run on the H89 to write hard sectored disk images! > >> Can it do single density 256 byte sectors? or MFM 512 byte sectors? > >> > >> .ASM for PCTOFLOP should be available, as a guide to what you need, but > >> will need modification for the H89 disk controller. > >> > >> Most of the NorthStar disk images should be availablem once you've got > the > >> H89 writing disks from them! > >> > >> Once you've got the NorthStar booting CP/M plus a copy of PIP, you can > >> then continue on it. > >> > >> > >> > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 4 14:15:20 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 12:15:20 -0700 Subject: MOS 6500/1 ROM archival service In-Reply-To: <6b08df84-cb30-a707-bcbe-4095bb6a2a84@jbrain.com> References: <6b08df84-cb30-a707-bcbe-4095bb6a2a84@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <05f0bb15-48b4-6e32-3c29-b8262f9162c9@sydex.com> Interesting. I've got a Micropolis 1115-VI floppy drive with this same MOS chip, 2 MHz crystal and all--but with a Micropolis ID. Probably not of any interest to the general hacker public. I believe it manages the buffered seek on the drive. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 4 15:56:19 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 16:56:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180704205619.4CB0118C082@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I'm going to need this info real soon ... so I'll probably start on > this later today if nobody has the info. > ... > write a two-instruction loop .. which writes a word with only a single > '1' bit, hook up a 'scope ... to a DRAM input, and walk the bit through > ... just disable ECC, and write all 0's to all the ECC bits > ... > I think that ... it'll go reasonably quickly, actually; the more bits > I ID, the fewer values I'll have to try on each succeding DRAM chip. That was pretty easy; thanks for knocking my brain into gear! :-) The first couple of bits I had to fish around, but pretty quickly it became apparent there was a system, and for the rest it was just 'confirm that this chip does indeed hold that bit'. I now have the chip<->bit table for the even words, and most of the ECC bits for them (there are two that have resistor headers next to them, so I can't easily get a DIP clip on them to see which is which), but I'm getting bored, I'll do the odd ones tomorrow. Probably they'll be very similar (the array looks like a mirror image of the one for the evens). Also, I was using a 1MB card, so I only had the low bank to worry about; so then I'll have to do the high bank - again, probably pretty easy, from here. The blasted card doesn't have the usual DEC Exx chip numbers, though! I had to make up my own for it... > I'll add the info to the MSV11-J page on the CHWiki, once I have it. Alas, it's down at the moment (the server is actually up, but its DNS entry has gone away again), but once it's back, I'll get them right up. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 4 17:58:13 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 15:58:13 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 Message-ID: brain fade, I know I've made a HPUX 9 install CD before but I've forgotten how you make one that can be booted by the LIF boot rom in the machine. From rp at servium.ch Wed Jul 4 18:24:59 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 01:24:59 +0200 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm assuming you are trying to use the newly added HP-UX images on bitsavers? I haven't tried those yet, but I don't remember doing anything special, the install CD is already bootable. I have a V/382 (AFAIK virtually identical with the 9000/382 except for the form factor), and it boots straight from the Install CD, no magic involved. I'll give your images a try when I get a chance. On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 12:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > brain fade, I know I've made a HPUX 9 install CD before but I've > forgotten how you make one that can be booted by the LIF boot rom > in the machine. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 4 18:50:53 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 16:50:53 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> On 7/4/18 4:24 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > I'm assuming you are trying to use the newly added HP-UX images on bitsavers? No, this is for the 9mb inital boot cd. I was trying to remember if you had to do something like set it to 2048 byte blocks. I remember I had created the .lif file for a reason. I know someone got it to work just by copying that .lif to a scsi hard disk. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Jul 4 20:17:15 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 03:17:15 +0200 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: hi I can provide a bootable CD image of HPUX v10.20 2018-07-05 1:50 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow via cctalk : > > > On 7/4/18 4:24 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: >> I'm assuming you are trying to use the newly added HP-UX images on bitsavers? > > No, this is for the 9mb inital boot cd. > > I was trying to remember if you had to do something like set it to 2048 byte > blocks. I remember I had created the .lif file for a reason. I know someone got > it to work just by copying that .lif to a scsi hard disk. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 4 22:09:56 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 4 Jul 2018 20:09:56 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6f44e95e-d2ea-d66b-66d4-3cb9b6553f04@bitsavers.org> 9.1 was the last version that works on 68k 9000s It may be I'm trying to use the wrong kind of CDROM drive. Will probably just put it onto a hard disk. On 7/4/18 6:17 PM, Carlo Pisani wrote: > hi > I can provide a bootable CD image of HPUX v10.20 > > > 2018-07-05 1:50 GMT+02:00 Al Kossow via cctalk : >> >> >> On 7/4/18 4:24 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: >>> I'm assuming you are trying to use the newly added HP-UX images on bitsavers? >> >> No, this is for the 9mb inital boot cd. >> >> I was trying to remember if you had to do something like set it to 2048 byte >> blocks. I remember I had created the .lif file for a reason. I know someone got >> it to work just by copying that .lif to a scsi hard disk. >> >> >> From rp at servium.ch Thu Jul 5 02:59:01 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 09:59:01 +0200 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: You can use "bchunk" to convert 2352 to something you can dd on a disk (I recommend scsi2sd if you don't want to burn physical CDs. The boot rom happily boots from anything that has the right bits on it, but the installer needs a lot of manual convincing to install from the wrong media type. Not impossible, just tedious). I'm also pretty sure that it's not necessary to keep the images as 2352 byte images, they still work when converted to 2048 bytes. I tried it on the images on bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/HPUX_9/2352_byte (calling them .iso is confusing, .bin would have been a more conventional choice): ---- $ file hpux900_install.iso hpux900_install.iso: data $ bchunk hpux900_install.iso hpux900_install.cue /tmp/hpux900_install.iso Reading the CUE file: Track 1: MODE1/2352 01 00:00:00 Writing tracks: 1: /tmp/hpux900_install.iso01.iso 7/7 MB [********************] 100 % $ file /tmp/hpux900_install.iso01.iso /tmp/hpux900_install.iso01.iso: Unix Fast File system [v1] (big-endian), last mounted on , last written at Tue Aug 25 18:41:39 1992, clean flag 23, number of blocks 1500, number of data blocks 1451, number of cylinder groups 1, block size 8192, fragment size 1024, minimum percentage of free blocks 10, rotational delay 4ms, disk rotational speed 8rps, TIME optimization ---- which looks as expected and is identical to the hpux9.lif file one folder up. If that doesn't work I can provide you with the image I used to install mine. On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 1:50 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/4/18 4:24 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > > I'm assuming you are trying to use the newly added HP-UX images on > bitsavers? > > No, this is for the 9mb inital boot cd. > > I was trying to remember if you had to do something like set it to 2048 > byte > blocks. I remember I had created the .lif file for a reason. I know > someone got > it to work just by copying that .lif to a scsi hard disk. > > > > From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Jul 5 04:08:39 2018 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 11:08:39 +0200 Subject: Needing help fixing an irix boot disk Message-ID: <006301d4143f$c4494ba0$4cdbe2e0$@tin.it> Hello, Long story short, a while ago I cloned the hd of a Fuel I got given (6.5.16, original installation from an iconic car designer, Bertone), and all was ok. The original hd was then left in place but unpowered, the cloned was upgraded to 6.5.22 to maintain the classic applications. Fast forward to the present : Had the smart idea to install an Audigy 2 zs pro ( the kind with the external box, and that takes current using a molex from the computer psu - I used the rail going also to the boot hd ), and the Fuel started acting weird ... not turning on unless pressing more than once the power button, one of the front fans speeding up and down and even stopping, Display Expander I/O errors ( I should note that from the moment I got the Fuel I had to disable env since the I2C on the V10 board is acting crazy ). I managed to boot / use it a couple of times... then it didn't go past the Prom. Removed the Audigy , after a while ( and 2 times left disconnected from the wall outlet for a bit ) it sort of restarted to power on consistently on pressing the button, but it always ended stopping at the prom splashscreen Invoking a manual boot resulted in this https://snag.gy/eMHafJ.jpg after going in circles for a bit, had the brilliant idea of doing this from the prom sash : https://snag.gy/eTzqEP.jpg thus getting more puzzled... the boot drive appeared readable, so why the scsi hard errors. Then I simply reconnected the original hd, and from that one boots with no issues... result, probably the last or both shutdowns while the Audigy was plugged were not so clean. Ideally I would prefer not to clone + upgrade + readd programs again, and I think that repairing the damaged installation would be better especially in case it happens again in the future. I've tried to ask around, but I've not got any hint, and if there was something in an old neko thread... well, we all know that those are unavailable. Bottom line, anyone ever got in this situation and has some tips on what to do ? Thanks in advance, Alessandro From carlojpisani at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 06:03:17 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 13:03:17 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIX, how to compile GNAT Message-ID: hi guys I am looking for instructions about *HowTo* compile a modern version of GNAT on IRIX >= 6.5.20 2016-12-10 =dev-lang/gnat-gcc-4.9.3 - success - Linux/PPC32BE 2016-12-13 =dev-lang/gnat-gcc-4.3.5 - success - Linux/PPC32BE 2017-08-24 =dev-lang/gnat-gcc-4.3.5 - failure - Linux/PPC32BE 2018-03-24 =dev-lang/gnat-gcc-4.3.5 - success - Linux/PPC32BE 2018-03-25 =dev-lang/gnat-gpl-4.3.5 - failure - Linux/PPC32BE 2018-03-27 =dev-lang/gnat-gpl-4.3.5 - failure - Linux/PPC32BE 2018-03-28 =dev-lang/gnat-gpl-4.3.5 - failure - Linux/PPC32BE 2018-04-05 =dev-lang/gnat-gcc-4.3.5 - success - Linux/PPC32BE I have successfully done it on Linux/PPC32-be (Apple PowerMac G4), but: - it was very very difficult - the recipe for Linux doesn't work for Irix anyone? thanks From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Jul 5 08:28:12 2018 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 14:28:12 +0100 Subject: Needing help fixing an irix boot disk In-Reply-To: <006301d4143f$c4494ba0$4cdbe2e0$@tin.it> References: <006301d4143f$c4494ba0$4cdbe2e0$@tin.it> Message-ID: <742e9b9a-a803-07ae-40ff-b0fbd8b9efc2@dunnington.plus.com> On 05/07/2018 10:08, Mazzini Alessandro via cctalk wrote: > Long story short, a while ago I cloned the hd of a Fuel I got given (6.5.16, original installation from an iconic car designer, Bertone), and all was ok. The original hd was then left in place but unpowered, the cloned was upgraded to 6.5.22 to maintain the classic applications. > getting more puzzled... the boot drive appeared readable, so why the scsi hard errors. > > Then I simply reconnected the original hd, and from that one boots with no issues... result, probably the last or both shutdowns while the Audigy was plugged were not so clean. > Bottom line, anyone ever got in this situation and has some tips on what to do ? I had something similar happen to one of my Indys running 6.5.22 recently, and I ended up running standalone fx from an installation CD to map out the corrupt sector and then reinstalling. That wasn't too bad because I have all the necessary 6.5.x CDs as images on a server on the same network (so no tedious swapping of a dozen or so CDs) and I have a "selections" file for inst, with the things I need. But since you have a bootable drive, you might be able to bring the system up with both drives installed, booting from the 6.5.16 drive, and running fsck over the (unmounted) 6.5.22 drive. If that doesn't work, you could probably still create a selections file from the unbootable drive which you could use in the worst case of having to re-install. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 5 18:43:18 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 19:43:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> >> I'll add the info to the MSV11-J page on the CHWiki, once I have it. > Alas, it's down at the moment ... but once it's back, I'll get them > right up. It's back, and I've added the chip info for the low 1MB bank: http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J_QBUS_memory#Technical_information I'll do the other bank 'soon' (I first have to tweak my 'scope loop program, to turn on memory mapping, to get to the high bank). Here's my test rig, BTW: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/MSV11JTester.jpg Simple, but it did the job! Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 5 20:26:57 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 18:26:57 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> On 7/5/18 12:59 AM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > I tried it on the images on bitsavers.org/bits/HP/HP_9000/HPUX_9/2352_byte > (calling them .iso is confusing, .bin would have been a more > conventional choice): > I'll clean that up It turned out to be the cd rom drive. I had to use an older hp scsi drive (Toshiba XM-3201) than the A1999 I tried initially Setting it to ID 3 helped too From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 22:20:08 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 20:20:08 -0700 Subject: MSV11-J engineering info In-Reply-To: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 5, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> I'll add the info to the MSV11-J page on the CHWiki, once I have it. > > > Alas, it's down at the moment ... but once it's back, I'll get them > > right up. > > It's back, and I've added the chip info for the low 1MB bank: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/MSV11-J_QBUS_memory#Technical_information > > I'll do the other bank 'soon' (I first have to tweak my 'scope loop program, > to turn on memory mapping, to get to the high bank). Here's my test rig, BTW: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/MSV11JTester.jpg > > Simple, but it did the job! > > Noel I don't see any chip info update at that #Technical_information page. It currently says "This page was last modified on 26 December 2016, at 19:13" What signal were you probing on the M8186 KDF11-A board? If you run the XXDP VMJAB0 diagnostic and there are failures, does it tell you which data bit and/or ECC bit positions have failures? I suppose it must, otherwise there wouldn't have been much point in the bit mapping exercise. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 5 22:29:28 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2018 20:29:28 -0700 Subject: MSV11-J engineering info In-Reply-To: References: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <65ea8883-089e-cb77-9969-e114a59719de@bitsavers.org> On 7/5/18 8:20 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > I don't see any chip info update at that #Technical_information page. The gunkies wiki is broken, none of his changes are getting out to the world. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 02:48:34 2018 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:48:34 +0200 Subject: MSV11-J engineering info In-Reply-To: <65ea8883-089e-cb77-9969-e114a59719de@bitsavers.org> References: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65ea8883-089e-cb77-9969-e114a59719de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6 July 2018 at 05:29, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/5/18 8:20 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > >> I don't see any chip info update at that #Technical_information page. > > The gunkies wiki is broken, none of his changes are getting out to the world. Yes, that's very strange.. if I'm logged in I see the updated page, with all the changes. If not, I see an old page from 2016. From kspt.tor at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 02:55:42 2018 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:55:42 +0200 Subject: MSV11-J engineering info In-Reply-To: References: <20180705234318.CEC7318C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65ea8883-089e-cb77-9969-e114a59719de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 6 July 2018 at 09:48, Tor Arntsen wrote: > On 6 July 2018 at 05:29, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 7/5/18 8:20 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I don't see any chip info update at that #Technical_information page. >> >> The gunkies wiki is broken, none of his changes are getting out to the world. > > Yes, that's very strange.. if I'm logged in I see the updated page, > with all the changes. If not, I see an old page from 2016. So, here's how to see the updated page while not logged in: - Go to the page - Click 'history' - Change 'From year (and earlier) 2017 ' to 2019 - Click Go - Click on the newest link in the list Not exactly convenient. Hopefully Tore S. or someone can figure out what's wrong with this Mediawiki version. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 6 08:07:26 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:07:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180706130726.CF60F18C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tor Arntsen > So, here's how to see the updated page while not logged in: Thanks for posting the 'fix'; the problem, and that workaround, are described on the 'News' sidebar on the Main Page, but of course people going straight to a URL won't see that - and since I'm always logged in, I often forget that un-logged in visitors have this issue. Maybe I should try and edit the CSS or something to include a note with every page? (Any pointers on how to do that gratefully accepted! :-) > Hopefully Tore S. or someone can figure out what's wrong with this > Mediawiki version. Alas, only Tore has the access needed to fix it (and the other current major problem). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 6 08:27:08 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:27:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J engineering info Message-ID: <20180706132708.2071718C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Glen Slick > What signal were you probing on the M8186 KDF11-A board? BDOUT; I'm triggering on that, and without any prints it wouldn't be easy to find on the MSV11-J. Picking it up off the KDF11-A was the easy way to go. > If you run the XXDP VMJAB0 diagnostic and there are failures, does it > tell you which data bit and/or ECC bit positions have failures? I > suppose it must, otherwise there wouldn't have been much point in the > bit mapping exercise. I dunno; I don't have it. There's also the built-in memory tester in the bootstrap code in the EEPROM on the KDJ11-B, and according to EK-KDJ1B-UG-001 (pp. 4-24, -26) that prints the address and bad data when an error is detected. I have my own little memory diagnostic that I wrote which I tend to use (since I know exactly what it's doing). I'll probably whip up a modified version to check the ECC bits in the MSV11-J (in diagnostic mode, they can be read/written). The MSV11-J does have this feature where you can leave the ECC enabled on the low 32KB (or optionally, the second 32KB) even when ECC is turned off for most of the memory; that's so a diagnostic can live in that memory while testing the rest. I think I'm probably going to ignore that, and plug in a small memory card for the diagnostic to live in, since the MSV11-J can be set to start at any 16KB boundary. That way I can test the entire MSV11-J without any fancy dancing. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 6 09:52:54 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:52:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd MSV11-J bug (Was: MSV11-J engineering info) Message-ID: <20180706145254.5537318C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I first have to tweak my 'scope loop program, to turn on memory mapping So while doing that I just discovered what I _think_ (maybe I'm just not being smart enough to see that it's somehow 'doing the right thing') is the wierdest hardware bug I've ever seen. Plug in an MSV11-J, disable ECC (store an '04' into the CSR), and then store '0172344' into any location. Now read it back! And it's not a bad RAM chip, which turning off the ECC is letting show through, because I tried several boards, and they all do the exact same thing. So either they've all got the same bad chip, or... :-) I found this when my modified 'scope loop program (above) blew out, but none of the other values used in that seemed to have a problem; but of course the program didn't include all 2^16 patterns. I suppose I should whip up a small program to try other values, and see if anything else does this... Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 11:49:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 09:49:52 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Couple of related things, does anyone have a list of SCSI CDROMs known to boot on the 68K 9000s? I've ordered another A1999 to see if my drive is just bad, and have started digging through my boxes of drives for other models to test. Has anyone come across an archive of SCSI CDROM technical manuals (ie. what commands they support)? I have one manual for the Toshiba ca. 1990 which is up on bitsavers. Another one of those things I should have been collecting, along with a bunch of different CDROM drives while Weird Stuff still existed. From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Jul 6 12:15:51 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 10:15:51 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've stayed with the Toshibas although I have a Sony that supports the block size as well. The thing to do is look for external CD-ROMs from like SUN DEC etc. Or from the SUN 3800 I need to get rid of. On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 9:49 AM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Couple of related things, does anyone have a list of SCSI CDROMs known to > boot on the 68K 9000s? > I've ordered another A1999 to see if my drive is just bad, and have > started digging through my > boxes of drives for other models to test. > > Has anyone come across an archive of SCSI CDROM technical manuals (ie. > what commands they support)? > > I have one manual for the Toshiba ca. 1990 which is up on bitsavers. > Another one of those things > I should have been collecting, along with a bunch of different CDROM > drives while Weird Stuff still existed. > > > > > > From haskins.sophie at gmail.com Fri Jul 6 13:34:32 2018 From: haskins.sophie at gmail.com (Sophie Haskins) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 14:34:32 -0400 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have a Sony CDU561-SC (it came in a Sun 411 case - not sure if Sun ever sold them like this or if it was custom) that worked just fine to boot an HP 9000/425e (one of the last 68k models, I think?) the other day. Its been pretty handy for various old workstations (except for my SGI Indy who really doesn't seem to like it) Sophie On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 1:16 PM Pete Lancashire via cctalk wrote: > > I've stayed with the Toshibas although I have a Sony that supports the > block size as well. The thing to do is look for external CD-ROMs from like > SUN DEC etc. Or from the SUN 3800 I need to get rid of. > > On Fri, Jul 6, 2018, 9:49 AM Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > > Couple of related things, does anyone have a list of SCSI CDROMs known to > > boot on the 68K 9000s? > > I've ordered another A1999 to see if my drive is just bad, and have > > started digging through my > > boxes of drives for other models to test. > > > > Has anyone come across an archive of SCSI CDROM technical manuals (ie. > > what commands they support)? > > > > I have one manual for the Toshiba ca. 1990 which is up on bitsavers. > > Another one of those things > > I should have been collecting, along with a bunch of different CDROM > > drives while Weird Stuff still existed. > > > > > > > > > > > > From jpstewart at sympatico.ca Fri Jul 6 14:43:47 2018 From: jpstewart at sympatico.ca (John-Paul Stewart) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 15:43:47 -0400 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I've successfully booted both my HP 9000/380 and 425e systems from a Toshiba SD-M1711 DVD-ROM drive jumpered to 512 byte/sector mode. In my case I was using CD images provided by David Collins from hpmuseum.net. The boot CD image that I got from him has the same md5sum as the hpux9_install.iso image that I just downloaded from bitsavers. I didn't need to do anything special to burn it or boot from it. It just worked. On 2018-07-06 12:49 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Couple of related things, does anyone have a list of SCSI CDROMs known to boot on the 68K 9000s? > I've ordered another A1999 to see if my drive is just bad, and have started digging through my > boxes of drives for other models to test. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 6 15:05:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:05:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd MSV11-J bug (Was: MSV11-J engineering info) Message-ID: <20180706200531.3B58C18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > none of the other values used in that seemed to have a problem; but of > course the program didn't include all 2^16 patterns. I suppose I should > whip up a small program to try other values, and see if anything else > does this... And it does! Quite a few values come back wrong, when ECC is disabled - I'm going to guess about 25% of the time. (Out of 0-020, 4 were wrong.) And it is not board-dependent - two different boards give incorrect read data for the same write values!! And the ones that were OK were OK on both. (And it doesn't appear, from a bit of spot-testing, to be address-dependent.) This is _very_ strange. There's nothing in the manual about 'disabling ECC causes incorrect data to be returned' that I could see. I wonder if the board is storing wrong values a _lot_, and the ECC is normally catching them? (Maybe DEC did it this way to test the ECC hardware all the time, and quickly catch failing ECC? But why doesn't the manual mention that?) One thing I noticed is that while I was doing the 'which bit goes in which chip' stuff, on some of the data lines, there was a lot of grup - some of it fairly long pulses, and some spikes that looked like they might be hazard outputs. I wonder if they are part of the cause? I guess the next step is to set up a loop which stores one of the values which always gives a bad output, and see what the board is actually writing into the chip... Very, very strange! Noel From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 6 18:44:16 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 16:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow via cctalk at "Jul 5, 18 06:26:57 pm" Message-ID: <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> This brings up an interesting question. For those of us with a 9000/300 but no SCSI (my 350 is strictly HP-IB), I've still had no joy ever getting a 9144A to work. I'm going to get another tape drive from Stan when I can get a chance to pick it up, but has anyone booted one of these off floppy? -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Today's forecast is total crap! -- Strong Bad, "Homestar Runner" Menu #11 -- From rp at servium.ch Fri Jul 6 18:53:53 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 01:53:53 +0200 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> References: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Not what you asked for, but I successfully used HPDrive to emulate HP-IB devices (disk and tapes). I never had any luck with physical tape drives. I've only ever seen HP-UX 5.1 on floppies. To install something more modern, it would be much easier to boot it over the network. On Sat, Jul 7, 2018 at 1:44 AM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This brings up an interesting question. For those of us with a 9000/300 but > no SCSI (my 350 is strictly HP-IB), I've still had no joy ever getting a > 9144A to work. I'm going to get another tape drive from Stan when I can get > a chance to pick it up, but has anyone booted one of these off floppy? > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Today's forecast is total crap! -- Strong Bad, "Homestar Runner" Menu > #11 -- > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 19:03:30 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:03:30 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> References: <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <0e915a67-2675-2db0-3a1e-51666eacfb26@bitsavers.org> If it hasn't been used recently, it is a certainty the capstan is goo. A friend helped me make a new capstan for one of the 9145s that I have, it worked until the logic croaked. I was able to load exactly ONE tape before it died. I'm in the process of buying a refurbished one from 360 Technologies just so I know I have one tested working one. This is a huge PITA for me at CHM, because HP gave us literally hundreds of tapes. I also note the extreme lack of 914x tape images anywhere. I haven't dug into them enough to understand even how to image them. They are block addressable, but have file marks. This is sort of like QIC tapes, though I haven't gotten into it far enough to know if the tape mark is an out of band (sits between a block) or consumes one. When Crisis Computer closed down, I tried reading a few, with pretty poor results. Even after changing the band, most just faulted. Recently I read the HP Journal article on the 9145, and one of the things they did was use special textured belts in their cartridges to make them work at 120ips The Journal also makes it sound like the things were WAY over-engineered. On 7/6/18 4:44 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > This brings up an interesting question. For those of us with a 9000/300 but > no SCSI (my 350 is strictly HP-IB), I've still had no joy ever getting a > 9144A to work. I'm going to get another tape drive from Stan when I can get > a chance to pick it up, but has anyone booted one of these off floppy? > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 19:05:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:05:04 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <2a14b00d-6e7f-1b43-d10b-09bd2bcd32b4@bitsavers.org> Digging through some HP docs, CD-ROM boot was only possible on 8.0 and up. Does HPDrive simulate a 9144 or 45? On 7/6/18 4:53 PM, Rico Pajarola via cctalk wrote: > Not what you asked for, but I successfully used HPDrive to emulate HP-IB > devices (disk and tapes). I never had any luck with physical tape drives. > > I've only ever seen HP-UX 5.1 on floppies. To install something more > modern, it would be much easier to boot it over the network. From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Jul 6 19:17:56 2018 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 20:17:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <2a14b00d-6e7f-1b43-d10b-09bd2bcd32b4@bitsavers.org> References: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> <2a14b00d-6e7f-1b43-d10b-09bd2bcd32b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, 6 Jul 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Digging through some HP docs, CD-ROM boot was only possible on 8.0 and up. > > Does HPDrive simulate a 9144 or 45? HPDrive will emulate a 9144A. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From spectre at floodgap.com Fri Jul 6 19:22:45 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 17:22:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <0e915a67-2675-2db0-3a1e-51666eacfb26@bitsavers.org> from Al Kossow via cctalk at "Jul 6, 18 05:03:30 pm" Message-ID: <201807070022.w670MjMZ15925248@floodgap.com> > If it hasn't been used recently, it is a certainty the capstan is goo. No, I fixed the capstan, and I'm using brand new IOTAMAT tapes still in the original shrink wrap, but only one drive will even certify tapes and none of them will write them. It just faults, like you said. I have a NOS one in box and I replaced the capstan on that but it works even worse than the beat-up one I restored in the first place. > This is a huge PITA for me at CHM, because HP gave us literally hundreds of > tapes. I also note the extreme lack of 914x tape images anywhere. I haven't > dug into them enough to understand even how to image them. They are block > addressable, but have file marks. This is sort of like QIC tapes, though I > haven't gotten into it far enough to know if the tape mark is an out of band > (sits between a block) or consumes one. They're IOTAMAT. I don't know many of the format details but they come preformatted from the factory and idiots treat them like QIC (because it's the same form factor) and demagnetize them. Or, they send you DC600A tapes "because they look the same." -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Is there another word for synonym? ----------------------------------------- From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 20:50:57 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:50:57 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: <201807070022.w670MjMZ15925248@floodgap.com> References: <201807070022.w670MjMZ15925248@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 7/6/18 5:22 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> If it hasn't been used recently, it is a certainty the capstan is goo. > > No, I fixed the capstan, and I'm using brand new IOTAMAT tapes still in > the original shrink wrap, but only one drive will even certify tapes and > none of them will write them. 3M 600HC? I saw the same thing on brand new ones of those. The only tape I've ever gotten to mount was a 16track HP labeled tape with ME10 on it. > > They're IOTAMAT. I don't know many of the format details but they come > preformatted from the factory and idiots treat them like QIC (because it's > the same form factor) and demagnetize them. Or, they send you DC600A tapes > "because they look the same." > Some of the details are in the earlier HP manuals pre 914x and in the HP Journal articles on the 9144 and 45. The recording format has redundancy where logical blocks are chunked and written redundantly across physical blocks, then error-corrected on read. Block labeling and soft EOT BOT marks are written full track when the tapes are made. There are no EOT/BOT holes, so inserting a tape in a QIC drive just runs the tape off of the BOT. I hate these things even more than ordinary QIC tapes, and that's saying a lot. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 6 20:52:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:52:31 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <44400d51-5b04-8f25-3f0c-f1c879097671@bitsavers.org> <201807062344.w66NiGLS17432742@floodgap.com> <2a14b00d-6e7f-1b43-d10b-09bd2bcd32b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2c57672f-bebe-b20b-e52d-6ad642c8f864@bitsavers.org> On 7/6/18 5:17 PM, Mike Loewen via cctalk wrote: > ?? HPDrive will emulate a 9144A. That's good enough for software distributions. I don't think I've ever seen a distribution tape that was 32 track. 9145 added a bunch of fancy buffering HPIB command stuff to get it to stream at 120ips. From charles7 at slingshot.co.nz Fri Jul 6 19:31:27 2018 From: charles7 at slingshot.co.nz (Charles Harris) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 12:31:27 +1200 Subject: Classic TMS1000 Message-ID: Hi Who has experience with the TMS1000 in a lot of games. Want to dump ram electronically (by 'test mode' ?) not decapping. Must be some new software out there that can do this now, or am I daydreaming. Thanks Charles Harris From bear at typewritten.org Fri Jul 6 20:22:10 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2018 18:22:10 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <830CF532-B583-4825-8C5D-40664AB7DB85@typewritten.org> On Jul 6, 2018, at 11:34 AM, Sophie Haskins via cctech wrote: > I have a Sony CDU561-SC (it came in a Sun 411 case - not sure if Sun > ever sold them like this or if it was custom) The easiest way to tell is whether the faceplate on the drive is molded in such a way that it creates an integral fit with the box. A "normal" drive in a 411 creates a big gap. ok bear. -- until further notice From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jul 7 05:30:11 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 06:30:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Odd MSV11-J bug (Was: MSV11-J engineering info) Message-ID: <20180707103011.D3FB318C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > it is not board-dependent - two different boards give incorrect read > data for the same write values!! ... I wonder if the board is storing > wrong values a _lot_, and the ECC is normally catching them? Anyone have any idea what might be going on here? I ask because I'm fixing to repair a broken MSV11-J for a list member, and the combo of ECC and this might make it hard to track the problem down. (If only one chip is dead, the ECC _should_ be able to 'paper over it'. So there are probably two? But if I turn off ECC, to be able to find the bad chip, will I get deceived by this other problem?) Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 7 08:04:10 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 06:04:10 -0700 Subject: Classic TMS1000 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <157aaaaf-c9c4-826a-51b1-5c59ea26590d@bitsavers.org> On 7/6/18 5:31 PM, Charles Harris via cctalk wrote: > Hi Who has experience with the TMS1000 in a lot of games. sean riddle there has been a ton of work with tms1000 games in mame https://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=113587 From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 7 10:56:42 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 08:56:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: from Al Kossow via cctalk at "Jul 6, 18 06:50:57 pm" Message-ID: <201807071556.w67FugAi22216878@floodgap.com> > > No, I fixed the capstan, and I'm using brand new IOTAMAT tapes still in > > the original shrink wrap, but only one drive will even certify tapes and > > none of them will write them. > > 3M 600HC? Yes, that's them. > I saw the same thing on brand new ones of those. The only tape I've ever > gotten to mount was a 16track HP labeled tape with ME10 on it. Then I don't feel so bad (I couldn't for the life of me imagine what I'd done wrong restoring it -- I cleaned the heads perfectly, and replaced the capstan and checked the optical sensor and the whole deal), but I'm still screwed since I don't have a way of backing up or booting this machine if the disk dies. Fortunately it's one of the tanklike HP 6000s (670H). I'll see if Stan's tape drive does any better, though I'd really like some way to boot a CD on it. I know there are CS/80 CD-ROMs but they only seem to come up for $CRAZY. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- He who Laughs, Lasts. ------------------------------------------------------ From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 7 14:15:17 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2018 21:15:17 +0200 Subject: For Sale SGI Phobos G160 NIC card for Indigo2, brand new, unopened box Message-ID: up for sale is an Ethernet 10/100Mbps Card for Indigo2/MaxImpact Brand New, Original, Never opened, Never Used! Comes with manual and drivers, still enclosed within cellophane! Phobos G160 are very rare nowadays looking for 170 Euro + S/H I can also give you a second hand (tested, working) SolidImpact GfX for 30 euro, thus 200 Euro both, combined shipping to save your money Located in Italy (my parent's house) From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 8 16:11:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 14:11:27 -0700 Subject: Making a bootable LIF CD for the 9000/382 In-Reply-To: References: <97de09db-cb2f-6f73-44f5-6516646ff44e@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <41e2dea5-6499-f872-edb4-9982d1975939@bitsavers.org> On 7/6/18 9:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Couple of related things, does anyone have a list of SCSI CDROMs known to boot on the 68K 9000s? Closing this out, pretty much any Apple SCSI drive (MATSUSHITA CR-50x) from the 600i to 24x will boot the installer when set to unit 0, parity enabled. I was testing against some broken carrier-load ancient CDROM drives, of which I did finally get the oldest HP to work (a Toshiba XM-3201) The notes and naming on bitsavers have been cleaned up, and I added a CD with a tarball of the '98 Y2K patches. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 8 18:31:58 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:31:58 -0700 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller Message-ID: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 8 18:34:32 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 23:34:32 +0000 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> References: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 07/08/2018 07:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 > > ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller > why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? > The sudden jumps in price wold make me very suspicious. bill From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 8 18:40:27 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:40:27 -0700 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: AKA shugart SA4400 Ministreaker On 7/8/18 4:34 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > On 07/08/2018 07:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 >> >> ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller >> why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? >> > > The sudden jumps in price wold make me very suspicious. > > bill > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Jul 8 18:42:04 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:42:04 -0700 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7255301e-a9c0-6a16-e580-02c0f91151ce@bitsavers.org> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?63508-WTD-Shugart-SA4400-Ministreaker-Floppy-Disk-Controller-(FDC) dated May, 2018 must go with something magical On 7/8/18 4:40 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > AKA shugart SA4400 Ministreaker > > On 7/8/18 4:34 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 07/08/2018 07:31 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 >>> >>> ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller >>> why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? >>> >> >> The sudden jumps in price wold make me very suspicious. >> >> bill >> > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 8 18:45:54 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 19:45:54 -0400 (EDT) Subject: KDJ11 misfeature Message-ID: <20180708234554.F05BB18C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, it appears that the KDJ11 (definitely the -A, and probably all of them) cannot execute code from the PARs - one gets a NXM trap. (Definitely the kernel I PARs, I haven't checked all 6 sets, but I can't see why they others would be any different.) Has anyone else run into this, so I can be sure I'm not confused? This is a mild pain, because it's nice to be able to put short 'scope loops in them, either to debug a memory card when you don't have any working memory plugged in, or when you don't want the bus 'contaminated' with instruction fetch cycles, etc. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 20:34:33 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:34:33 -0400 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> References: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: ?? It's a 1981 Godbout RAM board with 6116's in it. Did you send the wrong link? b On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:27 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 > > ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller > why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sun Jul 8 20:57:12 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2018 21:57:12 -0400 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: References: <5e13d27c-c0c8-f74b-ad86-230e81e390fd@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: eBay is redirecting you because the auction is ended, This is a new "feature." Thanks, Jonathan On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:34 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ?? It's a 1981 Godbout RAM board with 6116's in it. Did you send the wrong > link? > b > > On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 9:27 PM Al Kossow via cctalk > > wrote: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm//163128936661 > > > > ok, I'm guessing this is an SMS floppy controller > > why is someone willing to pay $50+ for it in the condition its in? > > > > > From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Jul 8 23:12:37 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2018 21:12:37 -0700 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller Message-ID: >eBay is redirecting you because the --->auction is ended, This is a new >"feature." Yeah, I hate it when ebay gets creative. It usually ends up screwing the customers/buyers.? -Ali From cube1 at charter.net Mon Jul 9 09:59:55 2018 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:59:55 -0500 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Wow. It is rare to see anything related to the IBM 1410. The two sales models with the 1415 console (one with a 13xx disk, the other with two 729 tape drives) were mouth watering... It was interesting to see the time clock (perhaps from S/N 00360?) as well - complete with key. Maybe they will sell me one? JRJ On 6/22/2018 5:34 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 11:21:28 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:21:28 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? Message-ID: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> I'm evaluating two that came in as a donation, and the donor didn't have any passwords From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 12:58:22 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 10:58:22 -0700 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug Message-ID: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> Someone working on simulating the scsi DIO board in MAME asked me about the scsi loopback test plug. Anyone ever seen one? Is it just wires or are there active parts doing the loopback? From lbickley at bickleywest.com Mon Jul 9 13:17:06 2018 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:17:06 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:21:28 -0700 Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > I'm evaluating two that came in as a donation, and the donor didn't > have any passwords They are crackable (I did it for my two HAL's - a 350 and a 375). Hint: Use Solaris running on SPARC. I also created a forensic copy of the VIRGIN Halstation System Image for the standard Micropolis 4221W system drive. I wouldn't feel comfortable making this pubic domain w/o permission from whomever currently owns the rights to HAL (Fujitsu, IIRC). However, I would be willing make a copy of the forensic image available to the CHM on the condition that it not be made public. Lyle -- 73 NM6Y Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 9 13:27:21 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:27:21 -0600 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/09/2018 11:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Someone working on simulating the scsi DIO board in MAME asked me about > the scsi loopback test plug. Anyone ever seen one? Is it just wires or > are there active parts doing the loopback? I've never heard of loopback related to SCSI. I have seen many external terminators that someone may miss-identify as a loopback because it seems quite similar to a loopback for serial / parallel. Is this by chance what they are talking about? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 13:33:52 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 11:33:52 -0700 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <69291177-9e84-5a6e-fc93-05b19a8a62bf@bitsavers.org> No, it is specifically mentioned in the HP test tools manual 09800-90001 page II-82. On 7/9/18 11:27 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I've never heard of loopback related to SCSI.? I have seen many external terminators that someone may miss-identify as a > loopback because it seems quite similar to a loopback for serial / parallel. > > Is this by chance what they are talking about? > > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 14:48:38 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:48:38 -0600 Subject: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 8, 2018 at 10:12 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, I hate it when ebay gets creative. It usually ends up screwing the > customers/buyers. > I don't think eBay considers the buyers to be their customers. From svens at stackframe.org Mon Jul 9 14:53:49 2018 From: svens at stackframe.org (Sven Schnelle) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 21:53:49 +0200 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <17c1d803-e5cb-3a6b-c646-da3b33fac6fa@stackframe.org> On 07/09/2018 08:27 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/09/2018 11:58 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> Someone working on simulating the scsi DIO board in MAME asked me >> about the scsi loopback test plug. Anyone ever seen one? Is it just >> wires or are there active parts doing the loopback? > > I've never heard of loopback related to SCSI.? I have seen many > external terminators that someone may miss-identify as a loopback > because it seems quite similar to a loopback for serial / parallel. > > Is this by chance what they are talking about I'm actually the one who asked Al about this test hood. It seems like it's a SCSI connector that connects the control lines to the data lines. I've added some code which emulates this in software and the ROM said 'test hood connected' after the HP98265A message, and waited 1 minute on boot. The 300 Test software also passed all checks. I'll verify that on real hardware, and post the connections. Regards Sven From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 9 14:57:54 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 12:57:54 -0700 Subject: Who is eBay's customer was RE: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003d01d417bf$21fb80b0$65f28210$@net> > I don't think eBay considers the buyers to be their customers. Yeah, well that is the age old argument. As far as I am concerned he who ponies up the cash is the customer. The sellers may be "customers" for eBay store front ends or advertising but the main business/revenue model is the fee on sale of items and that is paid by the buyers when all is said and done. One of the reasons eBay will never be as big or successful as Amazon is because they keep forgetting this basic fact IMHO. From ethan at 757.org Mon Jul 9 15:20:33 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 16:20:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Who is eBay's customer was RE: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <003d01d417bf$21fb80b0$65f28210$@net> References: <003d01d417bf$21fb80b0$65f28210$@net> Message-ID: > Yeah, well that is the age old argument. As far as I am concerned he who > ponies up the cash is the customer. The sellers may be "customers" for > eBay store front ends or advertising but the main business/revenue model > is the fee on sale of items and that is paid by the buyers when all is > said and done. One of the reasons eBay will never be as big or > successful as Amazon is because they keep forgetting this basic fact > IMHO. eBay is an auction site behind a fraud management system. -- : Ethan O'Toole From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 15:31:04 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:31:04 -0500 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: > On Mon, 9 Jul 2018 09:21:28 -0700 > Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > I'm evaluating two that came in as a donation, and the donor didn't > have any passwords Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations in 2009. I will email you directly with a link. -j From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Jul 9 15:34:24 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 13:34:24 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: cool, thanks! I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter for the drive. On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations > in 2009. I will email you directly with a link. From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 15:52:56 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:52:56 -0600 Subject: Who is eBay's customer was RE: SMS floppy disk controller In-Reply-To: <003d01d417bf$21fb80b0$65f28210$@net> References: <003d01d417bf$21fb80b0$65f28210$@net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 1:57 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote: > Yeah, well that is the age old argument. As far as I am concerned he who > ponies up the cash is the customer. The sellers may be "customers" for eBay > store front ends or advertising but the main business/revenue model is the > fee on sale of items and that is paid by the buyers when all is said and > done. > You know that, and I know that, but eBay apparently chooses to ignore it. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Mon Jul 9 16:05:58 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 15:05:58 -0600 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <69291177-9e84-5a6e-fc93-05b19a8a62bf@bitsavers.org> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <69291177-9e84-5a6e-fc93-05b19a8a62bf@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8ab95d3d-ef02-b1f3-5263-3121ee178748@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/09/2018 12:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > No, it is specifically mentioned in the HP test tools manual 09800-90001 > page II-82. Interesting. Thank you for correcting me. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Jul 9 16:24:07 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 14:24:07 -0700 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <8ab95d3d-ef02-b1f3-5263-3121ee178748@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <69291177-9e84-5a6e-fc93-05b19a8a62bf@bitsavers.org> <8ab95d3d-ef02-b1f3-5263-3121ee178748@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <690C734E-A349-461D-8FD3-07C64615F014@shiresoft.com> Yea, it would have to be more than just a terminator as it would have to reflect back some of the control signals to the ?ack? equivalents otherwise the controller would just see a bus with no devices on it. Presumably, the controller also has a ?loopback? mode so that all the signals (including data) could be read/written and therefor checked. TTFN - Guy > On Jul 9, 2018, at 2:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/09/2018 12:33 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> No, it is specifically mentioned in the HP test tools manual 09800-90001 page II-82. > > Interesting. > > Thank you for correcting me. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 19:44:46 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 17:44:46 -0700 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: <17c1d803-e5cb-3a6b-c646-da3b33fac6fa@stackframe.org> References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <17c1d803-e5cb-3a6b-c646-da3b33fac6fa@stackframe.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 12:53 PM, Sven Schnelle via cctalk wrote: > > I'm actually the one who asked Al about this test hood. It seems like > it's a SCSI connector that connects the control lines to the data lines. > I've added some code which emulates this in software and the ROM said > 'test hood connected' after the HP98265A message, and waited 1 minute on > boot. The 300 Test software also passed all checks. I'll verify that on > real hardware, and post the connections. See also this manual on hpmuseum.net : 12016A_SCSIHostBusAdapterCard_InstallationAndReferenceManual_12016-90001_125pages_Dec92.pdf http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=4790 Page 7-7 (Page 76 of the PDF), Table 7-2. Loopback Test Panel Configuration DATA0 <--> I/O DATA1 <--> C/D DATA2 <--> MSG DATA3 <--> REQ DATA4 <--> ACK DATA5 <--> ATN DATA6 <--> SEL DATA7 <--> BSY DATAP <--> RST No idea if the HP 1000 A-Series 12016A SCSI interface would use the same loopback connections, but it wouldn't surprise me if they did. (The earlier Feb 91 second edition version of the 12016-90001 manual on Bitsavers does include the DDL Diagnostic Program Chapter 7, which has the Table 7-2. Loopback Test Panel Configuration) From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Jul 9 20:17:59 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2018 18:17:59 -0700 Subject: HP 5061-6565 scsi loopback plug In-Reply-To: References: <59857423-99ea-949e-6479-6f289750481d@bitsavers.org> <8cf5c5a9-69ee-5811-2c3a-d5a967e37f95@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <17c1d803-e5cb-3a6b-c646-da3b33fac6fa@stackframe.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 5:44 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > (The earlier Feb 91 second edition version of the 12016-90001 manual > on Bitsavers does include the DDL Diagnostic Program Chapter 7, which > has the Table 7-2. Loopback Test Panel Configuration) I mean to type that the Feb 91 second edition version of the 12016-90001 manual does NOT include the DDL Diagnostic Program Chapter 7, that is why I referenced the Dec 92 third edition of the manual on hpmuseum.net From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 10 05:01:52 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 06:01:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity Message-ID: <20180710100152.CA06618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, if one looks up the Cache Control Register in, say, the KDJ11-A (EK-KDJ1A-UG-002), one sees (in section 1.6.2.1) that there are _three_ ways to disable the cache: bits 2, 3 ('force miss'), and 9 ('bypass cache'). Looking at the DCJ11 manual (EK-DCJ11-UG-PRE) doesn't provide any additional insight. (The 9 bit one is slightly different than the other two, because it causes cache contents to be invalidated as the code runs, whereas the other two don't.) What is going on here, does anyone know? I'm _guessing_ that this is for compatability with the -11/70, where the cache is divided in two ('two-way set associative'), and either half can be disabled separately (using the 2 and 3 bits in its CCR). I suppose only someone who worked on the DCJ11 would know; but I have no idea how to track down such a person. Noel From kevin.bowling at kev009.com Tue Jul 10 06:30:07 2018 From: kevin.bowling at kev009.com (Kevin Bowling) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 04:30:07 -0700 Subject: IBM junk In-Reply-To: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> References: <004801d40a79$2670bc30$73523490$@emailtoilet.com> Message-ID: Holy crap, that is an amazing haul. I would have taken it all too. Would still love to thumb through some of the manuals! Regards, Kevin On Fri, Jun 22, 2018 at 3:34 PM, Donald via cctalk wrote: > Collected stuff for over 10 years. Moving from 2300 sq. ft. to 1400. It > had to go. Praise the computer gods I found someone that wanted it all. > > 115 boxes of manuals and documents. > 26 boxes of coffee mugs > 73 703 boxes of stuff. > 106 loose big items. > > Filled the floor space of a 26' truck. > > It can be viewed at http://www.ibmjunkman.com/junk/ > > Best viewed on a PC with decent speed connection. > > Sample stuff: 360 Mod 20 panel, mod 30 panel, mod 65 panel, s/3 panel. Disk > pack and HDA up the ying yang. 3850 data carts, 2321 data cell, 7340 > Hypertape cartridge, a Russian equivalent, desktop chachki (tchotchke), 360 > mod 70 desktop model used in 1964 World's Fair, etc, etc. > From jsw at ieee.org Tue Jul 10 07:58:39 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 07:58:39 -0500 Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity In-Reply-To: <20180710100152.CA06618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180710100152.CA06618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9e158d82-4ac0-5635-6e91-61d3b576050a@ieee.org> On 7/10/18 5:01 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, if one looks up the Cache Control Register in, say, the KDJ11-A > (EK-KDJ1A-UG-002), one sees (in section 1.6.2.1) that there are _three_ ways > to disable the cache: bits 2, 3 ('force miss'), and 9 ('bypass cache'). > Looking at the DCJ11 manual (EK-DCJ11-UG-PRE) doesn't provide any additional > insight. > > (The 9 bit one is slightly different than the other two, because it causes > cache contents to be invalidated as the code runs, whereas the other two > don't.) > > What is going on here, does anyone know? I'm _guessing_ that this is for > compatability with the -11/70, where the cache is divided in two ('two-way set > associative'), and either half can be disabled separately (using the 2 and > 3 bits in its CCR). > > I suppose only someone who worked on the DCJ11 would know; but I have no idea > how to track down such a person. > > Noel See http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/j11.html for information on the design of the J11.? This may give you the 11/70 background you are seeking. I've always assumed the differences in controls in the CCR as necessary to support diagnostics of memory and the cache itself. In addition to above, there is a bypass cache bit in the PDR (section 1.5.6.2) for finer control.? This will help support memory mapped devices which update those memories independently. Lastly there is a selective bypass for certain instructions related to multiprocessing.?? EK-DCJ11-UG-PRE? Section 5.2.4 describes three bypass mechanisms. ?? Jerry From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 11:06:12 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 18:06:12 +0200 Subject: SGI IRIX gcc 4.7 Message-ID: hi I am trying to build gcc v4.7 on a remote IRIX machine (not my property, thus I can't access it 24h/7) with these (1) gnu-files, patch, and scrips (you can see how things are configured for compilation) I am stopped at the ppl v0.11 stage with the following error that I am not able to understand neither to solve any hint? thanks /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath: In function 'typename __gnu_cxx::__enable_if::__value, int>::__type std::fpclassify(_Tp)': /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath:814:35: error: 'FP_NAN' was not declared in this scope /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath:814:43: error: 'FP_INFINITE' was not declared in this scope /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath:814:56: error: 'FP_NORMAL' was not declared in this scope /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath:815:7: error: 'FP_SUBNORMAL' was not declared in this scope /usr/nekoware/gcc-4.7/lib/gcc/mips-sgi-irix6.5/4.7.1/../../../../include/c++/4.7.1/cmath:815:21: error: 'FP_ZERO' was not declared in this scope gmake[3]: *** [Box.lo] Error 1 gmake[3]: Leaving directory `/root/ghdl-for-irix/prereq/new-gcc-v4.7/ppl-0.11-build/src' gmake[2]: *** [all] Error 2 gmake[2]: Leaving directory `/root/ghdl-for-irix/prereq/new-gcc-v4.7/ppl-0.11-build/src' gmake[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1 gmake[1]: Leaving directory `/root/ghdl-for-irix/prereq/new-gcc-v4.7/ppl-0.11-build' gmake: *** [all] Error 2 (1) http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/retrocomputing/sgi/dev/gcc-v4.7.1/ From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Jul 10 11:15:29 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:15:29 -0700 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff Message-ID: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> 360 Technologies is (was) and old HP reseller. I just tried buying a 9145 from them, and didn't hear anything back. Called them, and they are in the middle of selling off what they haven't scrapped. Mike is going to let me know more of what will be available and by whom next week. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 11:57:46 2018 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 09:57:46 -0700 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > 360 Technologies is (was) and old HP reseller. > > I just tried buying a 9145 from them, and didn't hear anything back. > Called them, and they are in the middle of selling off what they haven't scrapped. > Mike is going to let me know more of what will be available and by whom next week. I noticed recently that all of their eBay listings (360dibs) were canceled. I wondered what was up with that. I bought a couple of HP 1000 A-series cables from them in the last year or so that I couldn't find anywhere else. Are there any HP resellers left now that have their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't have or never had? From derek.newland at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 12:03:43 2018 From: derek.newland at gmail.com (Derek Newland) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:03:43 -0400 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: If this is them, they are apparently located in Austin; https://www.360tech.com On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 12:57 PM Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 9:15 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > 360 Technologies is (was) and old HP reseller. > > > > I just tried buying a 9145 from them, and didn't hear anything back. > > Called them, and they are in the middle of selling off what they haven't > scrapped. > > Mike is going to let me know more of what will be available and by whom > next week. > > I noticed recently that all of their eBay listings (360dibs) were > canceled. I wondered what was up with that. I bought a couple of HP > 1000 A-series cables from them in the last year or so that I couldn't > find anywhere else. Are there any HP resellers left now that have > their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't > have or never had? > -- *Derek Newland* | (828) 234-4731 | derek.newland at gmail.com From robert626001 at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 13:53:13 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 13:53:13 -0500 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I just called, looking for a cable. Mike said they were selling the building and the plotter side of the business, but it sounded like the HP side might be coming back in some shape or form. -- Robert From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 10 14:38:42 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 15:38:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity Message-ID: <20180710193842.F166618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > See http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/j11.html for information on the > design of the J11. Thanks for that pointer; I don't think I've ever seen that - quite interesting. Alas, it didn't have the cache info - but now that I've though about it overnight, I'm pretty sure the reason for the two bits that do the same thing is for -11/70 compatability. > I've always assumed the differences in controls in the CCR as necessary > to support diagnostics of memory and the cache itself. Yes, the DCJ11 cache is quite interesting, the way the functionality is partitioned between the chip itself, and external circuitry; the actual cache data is stored externally, along with the tags, parity, etc, and also the CPU and DMA comparators. The KDB11-A and -B differ a bit in their cache; both are single-associative (i.e. only one cache cell for each word), but the -B has duplicate tag arrays, one for the CPU's use, one for DMA devices - apparently so that contention between the two for access to the tags doesn't slow things down (since the tag stores are memory arrays, they need to do an address-input before any tag can be checked). > In addition to above, there is a bypass cache bit in the PDR (section > 1.5.6.2) for finer control. Yes, I only found that out last night (or maybe I saw it on a previous scan of the manual, but its importance didn't register). The -11/70 doesn't have that! Very useful for my application (a memory tester program)... Noel From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Jul 10 16:44:18 2018 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:44:18 +0100 Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity In-Reply-To: <20180710100152.CA06618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180710100152.CA06618C0AB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3e20f6f8-0493-c37b-6993-4667fe23534e@ntlworld.com> On 10/07/18 11:01, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I suppose only someone who worked on the DCJ11 would know; but I have no idea > how to track down such a person. > Not sure that I know such a person but you might try hunting for the Semiconductor Databook Volume 1 1987. It has some basic information packed into about 80 pages. It might be on bitsavers already otherwise, if I've scanned it (and you want it, and I can find it) I expect it could make it's way to a google drive near you soon (ish). If I have to scan the pages by hand then it'll be a few days at least ... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 17:19:30 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 16:19:30 -0600 Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity In-Reply-To: <20180710193842.F166618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180710193842.F166618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 1:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Jerry Weiss > > In addition to above, there is a bypass cache bit in the PDR (section > > 1.5.6.2) for finer control. > > Yes, I only found that out last night (or maybe I saw it on a previous scan > of the manual, but its importance didn't register). The -11/70 doesn't have > that! Very useful for my application (a memory tester program)... > IIRC, there are jumpers in the 11/70 that can be used for cache bypass. It wasn't considered necessary or useful for normal system operation. Software control of cache bypass was added to the KB11-Cm used in the ill-fated PDP-11/74 multiprocessor system. Also the KB11-Cm had interlocked ASRB like the J11; the memory bus from the cache to the MKA11 multiport memory had an additional signal to interlock the ASRB read/modify/write. Unfortunately there's no public documentation on the KB11-Cm or the MKA11 from which to inspect the details. I think the KB11-Cm _might_ have forced ASRB instructions to always bypass the cache, to avoid the need to dedicate an entire uncached page to semaphores, but I'm not certain. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 18:12:30 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 00:12:30 +0100 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying Message-ID: Hi folks, Tonight I got my imaging PC to successfully read some of the 8? disks from my CPT8500 word processor using one of its own Tandon TM848-01 drives, sadly it seems the boot disk is toast but I?ve been able to dump some of the data disks as well as the Utilities. Since I have a box of unused disks I thought I?d try writing back an image but got a lot of CRC errors. Closer inspection of the disk itself shows this - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/8inchFloppyImaging-7.jpg - which looks like damp. Is it actually the magnetic coating breaking down? Dare I attempt cleaning? Just for another test I tried reading some of my DEC diagnostic floppies since I hoped they were RX01 format, but they error constantly so they must be RX02s. Still, it was good to see the drive spring into life :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jul 10 20:25:03 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:25:03 +1000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Adrian said: > Tonight I got my imaging PC to successfully read some of the 8? disks from my CPT8500 word processor using one of its own Tandon TM848-01 drives, sadly it seems the boot disk is toast but I?ve been able to dump some of the data disks as well as the Utilities. Since I have a box of unused disks I thought I?d try writing back an image but got a lot of CRC errors. Closer inspection of the disk itself shows this - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/8inchFloppyImaging-7.jpg - which looks like damp.> > Is it actually the magnetic coating breaking down? Dare I attempt cleaning? If it was me I certainly would attempt cleaning, after all it was unreadable anyway. Perhaps try cleaning a test area with a cotton bud (Q-tip) and isopropyl alcohol. If the stuff comes off without oxide removal then I'd slice the top edge off the jacket to remove (with clean disposable gloves on a lint-free surface) and clean the whole disc and finally put into a clean jacket. Steve. From mechanic_2 at charter.net Tue Jul 10 20:31:55 2018 From: mechanic_2 at charter.net (Richard Pope) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 20:31:55 -0500 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> Steve, Adrian, I am pretty certain that alcohol will break down the binders and remove the oxide. Since the bad disc was run through the drive the head/heads should be cleaned before any more read or write attempts are made otherwise more discs will be damaged. Thanks, rich! On 7/10/2018 8:25 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Adrian said: >> Tonight I got my imaging PC to successfully read some of the 8? disks from my CPT8500 word processor using one of its own Tandon TM848-01 drives, sadly it seems the boot disk is toast but I?ve been able to dump some of the data disks as well as the Utilities. Since I have a box of unused disks > I thought I?d try writing back an image but got a lot of CRC errors. Closer inspection of the disk itself shows this - http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/8inchFloppyImaging-7.jpg - which looks like damp.> >> Is it actually the magnetic coating breaking down? Dare I attempt cleaning? > > If it was me I certainly would attempt cleaning, after all it was unreadable anyway. Perhaps try cleaning a test area with a cotton bud (Q-tip) > and isopropyl alcohol. If the stuff comes off without oxide removal then I'd slice the top edge off the jacket to remove (with clean disposable > gloves on a lint-free surface) and clean the whole disc and finally put into a clean jacket. > > Steve. > > From ethan at 757.org Tue Jul 10 20:43:12 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:43:12 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? Message-ID: Trying to identify the S100 serial board in my Imsai 8080. https://imgur.com/eZyOVT5 I assume it was a kit. There are wires from behind one of the ICs that go to DB25 on the rear, along with other DB25s with a few pins (maybe cassette input.) Any help appreciated. -- : Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 10 21:15:13 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:15:13 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> Message-ID: <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> No, no, no! Do not use isopropanol to clean floppies--you'll wind up with a soft oxide coating and a brown rag. Were these mine, I'd first remove them from their jackets and then bake them and then clean them with distilled water and perhaps a couple of drops of a wetting agent (Kodak Photo-flo is a good) choice--a couple of drops goes a long way). You should be good to go--at least my experience tells me that. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:17:39 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:17:39 +0000 Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm thinking one serial and one cassette. The 8251 for the cassette. I can't make out all the chips at the pins? The board was hand laid out. Is there nothing on the bottom but traces? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:43:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? Trying to identify the S100 serial board in my Imsai 8080. https://imgur.com/eZyOVT5 I assume it was a kit. There are wires from behind one of the ICs that go to DB25 on the rear, along with other DB25s with a few pins (maybe cassette input.) Any help appreciated. -- : Ethan O'Toole From rich.cini at verizon.net Tue Jul 10 21:20:12 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:20:12 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The two connectors at the top remind me of the MITS 2SIO board. Chip on the left with the label seems odd ? looks like an EPROM. Not sure why they?d use a UART (40-pin chip) and an ACIA, but it?s an interesting two-port combo board. Get Outlook for iOS On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:17 PM -0400, "dwight via cctalk" wrote: I'm thinking one serial and one cassette. The 8251 for the cassette. I can't make out all the chips at the pins? The board was hand laid out. Is there nothing on the bottom but traces? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:43:12 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? Trying to identify the S100 serial board in my Imsai 8080. https://imgur.com/eZyOVT5 I assume it was a kit. There are wires from behind one of the ICs that go to DB25 on the rear, along with other DB25s with a few pins (maybe cassette input.) Any help appreciated. -- : Ethan O'Toole From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:24:00 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 02:24:00 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net>, <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: I've had the goo from the adhesive of 5.25 inch 360k disk come through the nice liner and make gobs on the disk. I tried several thing but found that isopropanol worked without removing any of the magnetic material ( maybe s tiny amount that was likely loose already ). I'm not saying it would be the same for 8 inch disk. Once working I did copy them to floppies without liners. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 7:15:13 PM To: Richard Pope via cctalk Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying No, no, no! Do not use isopropanol to clean floppies--you'll wind up with a soft oxide coating and a brown rag. Were these mine, I'd first remove them from their jackets and then bake them and then clean them with distilled water and perhaps a couple of drops of a wetting agent (Kodak Photo-flo is a good) choice--a couple of drops goes a long way). You should be good to go--at least my experience tells me that. --Chuck From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:41:30 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:41:30 -0400 Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've got the manual for this one -- I've got one myself. I'll get it scanned and uploaded. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:20 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > The two connectors at the top remind me of the MITS 2SIO board. > Chip on the left with the label seems odd ? looks like an EPROM. Not sure > why they?d use a UART (40-pin chip) and an ACIA, but it?s an interesting > two-port combo board. > > > > Get Outlook for iOS > > > > > > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:17 PM -0400, "dwight via cctalk" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > I'm thinking one serial and one cassette. The 8251 for the cassette. > > I can't make out all the chips at the pins? The board was hand laid out. > Is there nothing on the bottom but traces? > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk > Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:43:12 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? > > > Trying to identify the S100 serial board in my Imsai 8080. > > https://imgur.com/eZyOVT5 > > I assume it was a kit. There are wires from behind one of the ICs that go > to DB25 on the rear, along with other DB25s with a few pins (maybe > cassette input.) > > Any help appreciated. > > > -- > : Ethan O'Toole > > > > > > > > From ethan at 757.org Tue Jul 10 21:52:28 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 22:52:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: /me bows "National Multiplex" is the brand! Thanks Glitch! > I've got the manual for this one -- I've got one myself. I'll get it > scanned and uploaded. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:20 PM, Richard Cini via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> The two connectors at the top remind me of the MITS 2SIO board. >> Chip on the left with the label seems odd ? looks like an EPROM. Not sure >> why they?d use a UART (40-pin chip) and an ACIA, but it?s an interesting >> two-port combo board. >> >> >> >> Get Outlook for iOS >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 10:17 PM -0400, "dwight via cctalk" < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I'm thinking one serial and one cassette. The 8251 for the cassette. >> >> I can't make out all the chips at the pins? The board was hand laid out. >> Is there nothing on the bottom but traces? >> >> Dwight >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctalk on behalf of Ethan via cctalk >> Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 6:43:12 PM >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? >> >> >> Trying to identify the S100 serial board in my Imsai 8080. >> >> https://imgur.com/eZyOVT5 >> >> I assume it was a kit. There are wires from behind one of the ICs that go >> to DB25 on the rear, along with other DB25s with a few pins (maybe >> cassette input.) >> >> Any help appreciated. >> >> >> -- >> : Ethan O'Toole >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > -- : Ethan O'Toole From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 22:04:02 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:04:02 -0400 Subject: Can anyone identify this S100 serial board? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Got it: ftp://filedump.glitchwrks.com/manuals/s100/national_multiplex/Computer_Aid_2SIO-R.pdf Thanks, Jonathan From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jul 10 23:14:56 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:14:56 +1000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Chuck reckoned > No, no, no! Do not use isopropanol to clean floppies--you'll wind up > with a soft oxide coating and a brown rag. Were these mine, I'd first > remove them from their jackets and then bake them and then clean them > with distilled water and perhaps a couple of drops of a wetting agent > (Kodak Photo-flo is a good) choice--a couple of drops goes a long way). > > You should be good to go--at least my experience tells me that. Well, I suggested IPA (to Chuck's horror) so decided to put my money where my mouth is and try it myself. Using a 38-year old 8" IBM Diskette 1 (128-bit sectors) that I had lying around (it's physically damaged) I proceeded to clean it with high-grade IPA and a cotton bud as I suggested. After a good scrubbing, no detectable oxide came off at all. It even looked a tiny bit cleaner on the area I tried. Photos: Diskette: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/diskette_1.jpg Before: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/diskette_before.jpg After: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/diskette_after.jpg So there you have it. I'm not asserting that all diskettes were manufactured as well as this IBM one but I stand by what I suggested, I would certainly try IPA again if I had to. By the 1970s I would think a diskette surface had come a long way from my dad's RAMAC days and even the 1/2" magnetic tape from the 50s and 60s, where I would be considerably more reticent trying this. Steve. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 10 23:47:30 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 21:47:30 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: >> No, no, no! Do not use isopropanol to clean floppies--you'll wind up On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > Well, I suggested IPA (to Chuck's horror) so decided to put my money where my mouth is and try it myself. > Using a 38-year old 8" IBM Diskette 1 (128-bit sectors) that I had lying around (it's physically damaged) I proceeded > to clean it with high-grade IPA and a cotton bud as I suggested. What concentration of IPA were you using? There might be a difference in results between 70% and 91% There might also even be a difference in the oxide formulation between brands. (If Chuck was trying to clean a Wabash, then it might dissolve right through the plastic.) I've used water, and a heavily diluted dish soap. And Kodak "Photo-Flow" I kept a few spare jackets on hand. I had cotton film editing gloves around, but didn't always bother to use them. I was going to modify some 5x7 and 8x10 film hangers to use a film washer, but never got around to needing it. I often received 5.25" and 8" diskettes that didn't turn freely in the jacket. Most of the time, rubbing each of the four edges HARD against the corner of the table would loosen them up. If not, I just slit the jacket, and put them into a spare jacket. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 21:08:33 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 19:08:33 -0700 Subject: A New Batch of Items in Sellam's Virtual Warehouse Message-ID: Hello Everybody! I hope you're enjoying your summer. I have added more items to my online Virtual Warehouse, as follows: Atari XF551 external 5.25" floppy disk drive Atari 410 Program Recorder Atari 410-P Program Recorder Data Pacific TR-1 Translator One Blue Chip BCD/5.25 floppy drive Panasonic KX-P412 AppleTalk Interface Board Pacific Bell [Cidco DETI] eMessage e-mail terminal Gandalf Data XpressConnect 5242i ISDN router Monster Cable MacCable LocalTalk Connector Telephone Talk PhoneNet adaptor Sinclair ZX81 Timex-Sinclair 1000 Sinclair 16K RAM Timex-Sinclair 1016 Timex-Sinclair Command Stick Byte-Back Co. Modem Sinclair power supply Timex-Sinclair 2020 AC Adaptor Macintosh Performa 475 Macintosh 12" RGB Display Farallon MacRecorder Sound System Nuvotech TurboNet ST Macintosh Performa 475 Votrax International PC Dial/Log MediaVision Pro Movie Spectrum Video Capture and Display System Radeon 9700 Atlantis Pro Microsoft SideWinder 3D Pro Mouse Systems PenMate Lotus Information Network FM Receiver IntelliTools IntelliKeys touch tablet keyboard Tandy CCR-82 Cassette Recorder Micropolis 1022-1 floppy disk drive Micropolis 1042 I floppy disk drive Micropolis 1043 II floppy disk drive Lexisoft, Inc. Spellbinder and Electric Webster Micropolis 1040/1050 S-100 Floppy Disk Subsystems User's Manual Micropolis Maintenance Manual Floppy Disk Subsystem Colorado Memory Systems QIC-02 Everex Systems Inc. EV-940 modem Hayes SmartModem 1200B Hayes JT Fax 9600B modem Hayes B0014800-A modem Practical Peripherals PM2400 Adaptec AHA-1510A SCSI Adapter Future Domain Corp TMC-850IBM Video Seven VEGA Enhanced Graphics Adaptor Ven-Tel MD212-3E modem Racal-Vadic VI1222 modem Racal-Vadic VA3467 modem The index of links to the specific items above is, as always, here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1I53wxarLHlNmlPVf_HJ5oMKuab4zrApI_hiX0pNmy48/edit#gid=949372371&range=A1 Check the News and FAQ tabs for news and information. Right now I'm offering 10% off for the month of July from new buyers ONLY! But for past buyers, you get 15% off! ;) Thanks! Sellam From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 01:27:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2018 23:27:03 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 07/10/2018 09:14 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: > So there you have it. I'm not asserting that all diskettes were manufactured as well as this IBM one but I stand by > what I suggested, I would certainly try IPA again if I had to. By the 1970s I would think a diskette surface had come a > long way from my dad's RAMAC days and even the 1/2" magnetic tape from the 50s and 60s, where I would be considerably > more reticent trying this. Well, they're your disks. I've seen a system for reading magnetic tape where a continuous bath was used to combad sticky-shed, but there were no comments on the condition of the medium after reading. If these were my disks, I wipe them down with cyclomethicone. That would at least lubricate them and leave them (after evaporation) in pretty much the same state as you started. Remember that a fatty acid usually was used as a medium lubricant when these disks were manufactured. The last thing in the world you want to do is dissolve this and remove it. But, as I remarked, they're your disks. I've certainly seen my share of 8" CPT floppies--and 1960s 1/2" tape. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Wed Jul 11 03:17:15 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:17:15 +1000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <86e33b2aebb91109b540b8c08510a3d4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Fred asked > What concentration of IPA were you using? 99% Laboratory grade. Not very pleasant to have on the skin, it dries it out shockingly. > There might be a difference in results between 70% and 91% > > There might also even be a difference in the oxide formulation between > brands. (If Chuck was trying to clean a Wabash, then it might dissolve > right through the plastic.) I've had Computer Resources, Wabash and other cheap diskettes long ago, they were none too good. Verbatim and Dysan always seemed pretty reliable for me. From terry at webweavers.co.nz Wed Jul 11 03:33:07 2018 From: terry at webweavers.co.nz (Terry Stewart) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:33:07 +1200 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <86e33b2aebb91109b540b8c08510a3d4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <86e33b2aebb91109b540b8c08510a3d4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Just my experience, I once did a trial where I took two identical 5,25 inch disks of the same batch from the same manufacturer. These were clean disks which both formatted and verified just fine, but I wanted to see if IPA did indeed damage the disk. One I swabbed one with 75% IPA, the other with warm water with a touch of dishwashing liquid. On checking the IPA swabbed disk now showed a few damaged sectors. The water/detergent one did not. It's not scientific (just one rep) and I was quite aggressive with the wiping. However, it made me steer away from IPA. Immersing the platters in warm water with a touch of detergent, and gently wiping (then air drying) works well for me when cleaning "dirty disks". Terry (Tez) On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Fred asked > > What concentration of IPA were you using? > > 99% Laboratory grade. Not very pleasant to have on the skin, it dries it > out shockingly. > > > There might be a difference in results between 70% and 91% > > > > There might also even be a difference in the oxide formulation between > > brands. (If Chuck was trying to clean a Wabash, then it might dissolve > > right through the plastic.) > > I've had Computer Resources, Wabash and other cheap diskettes long ago, > they were > none too good. Verbatim and Dysan always seemed pretty reliable for me. > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 11 04:21:11 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:21:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net>, <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, dwight wrote: > I've had the goo from the adhesive of 5.25 inch 360k disk come through > the nice liner and make gobs on the disk. I tried several thing but > found that isopropanol worked without removing any of the magnetic > material ( maybe s tiny amount that was likely loose already ). I'm not > saying it would be the same for 8 inch disk. Once working I did copy > them to floppies without liners. I use Screen 99 for cleaning floppies, and that has proved to be the best so far, giving a clean and smooth surface. There's no need to grapple with several different fluids. I don't even use lint-free cloths and the like, I use paper towels. The surface is so smooth that all the remaining dust can be blown away easily. Christian From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 04:52:10 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:52:10 +0100 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <73319246a5acbf15ef5a3f1f2286fff4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <86e33b2aebb91109b540b8c08510a3d4.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <9D8C7971-865F-4D88-BB60-D825C5CAD1C1@gmail.com> > On 11 Jul 2018, at 09:33, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote: > > Just my experience, I once did a trial where I took two identical 5,25 > inch disks of the same batch from the same manufacturer. These were clean > disks which both formatted and verified just fine, but I wanted to see if > IPA did indeed damage the disk. > > One I swabbed one with 75% IPA, the other with warm water with a touch of > dishwashing liquid. > > On checking the IPA swabbed disk now showed a few damaged sectors. The > water/detergent one did not. > > It's not scientific (just one rep) and I was quite aggressive with the > wiping. However, it made me steer away from IPA. Immersing the platters > in warm water with a touch of detergent, and gently wiping (then air > drying) works well for me when cleaning "dirty disks". > > Terry (Tez) > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Thanks everyone! I found another box so I?ve got 20 ?new? ones now. I?ll try all of the above methods and see where it gets me. Pity I don?t have any spare jackets but my plan was to attempt to get the CPT to boot and since the original boot disk has damaged sectors 0-3 and the previous owner didn?t make a copy I?m a bit stuck anyway. It was good to be able to see actual documents on the data disks with ANADISK though, cheers Chuck :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 04:53:49 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 10:53:49 +0100 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> > On 11 Jul 2018, at 03:15, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > No, no, no! Do not use isopropanol to clean floppies--you'll wind up > with a soft oxide coating and a brown rag. Were these mine, I'd first > remove them from their jackets and then bake them and then clean them > with distilled water and perhaps a couple of drops of a wetting agent > (Kodak Photo-flo is a good) choice--a couple of drops goes a long way). > > You should be good to go--at least my experience tells me that. Hi Chuck, What temperature oven? Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:20:16 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:20:16 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <88dc69d8-164a-cfad-0e65-1c1afb59ccc9@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/18 2:21 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > I use Screen 99 for cleaning floppies MSDS https://store.comet.bg/download-file.php?id=16956 first ingredient listed; isopropyl alcohol From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 10:30:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:30:58 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/11/2018 02:53 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > What temperature oven? 58C +/- 0.5C --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 10:54:44 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 08:54:44 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <88dc69d8-164a-cfad-0e65-1c1afb59ccc9@bitsavers.org> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <88dc69d8-164a-cfad-0e65-1c1afb59ccc9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <897e58ae-f98b-727a-9ea1-d6583a0afef7@bitsavers.org> On 7/11/18 8:20 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/11/18 2:21 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> I use Screen 99 for cleaning floppies > > MSDS > > https://store.comet.bg/download-file.php?id=16956 > > first ingredient listed; isopropyl alcohol > > Since I haven't mentioned it for a while, I had the best results with the old "Weber Costello Markerboard Cleaner", (Octylphenoxy Polyethoxyethanol (Triton X-100) and Trisodium Phosphate) which is photoflow and a surficant. then they changed the formula to make it 'green' :-( Bought a few ingredients (Triton X-100 and Ethylene Glycol) but haven't tried making anything. What you want is a lubricant and a cleaning agent that will take off any gunk on the surface without softening the binder. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Jul 11 10:57:34 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 16:57:34 +0100 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> Be wary though, domestic ovens apparently fluctuate wildly. I did have success with some TK50s in our fan oven set at 40C Sent from my Windows 10 phone From: Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: 11 July 2018 16:31 To: Adrian Graham via cctalk Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying On 07/11/2018 02:53 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > What temperature oven? 58C +/- 0.5C --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 11:10:14 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 09:10:14 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On 7/11/18 8:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Be wary though, domestic ovens apparently fluctuate wildly. Use a food dehydrator this is the unit I use for QIC tapes (weston 10 tray stainless steel dehydrator model 74-1001-2) https://www.ebay.com/itm//113143490361 but I do them a couple dozen at at time From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 11 11:44:53 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:44:53 -0500 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> Are there any HP resellers left now that have their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't have or never had? Sure! The problem is that most of them don't know that collectors still want old stuff. Continental Computers in Calif has old DEC, SUN, and old and new HP stuff. Pallets of it! They just don't advertise it. If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:24:34 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 19:24:34 +0200 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 at 18:58, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. Well, I'm still looking for an IBM PC-AT Model F keyboard. :-) US layout would be a challenge but not an insuperable one. I don't use a ? much any more since I don't like in the UK any more... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:29:41 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:29:41 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: I don't recall the concentration I used. I would recommend not using it for most conditions. I recall that I'd tried various other cleaning methods. I recall using water, water/detergent and may have even tried windex(?). None of the other things would touch it. The stuff on the surfaces was the adhesive use to hold the fiber envelope liners in place. I removed the disk from their envelopes and placed the disk on a clean flat plastic surface. I use swabs to rub the areas effected ( it looked similar to what we call screen fungus ). I went through a lot of swabs and I believe I rinsed them afterwards. There are a few other cleaning methods that one might try. I've never tried these myself The first might make you cringe a little. That is to use saliva. It is actually a type of digesting fluid. Of course, rinse it off when you get the offending stuff loose. Next is the smooth orange oil hand cleaner. ( not the stuff with pumas ). Really cleans things great and good for killing ants. Again, rinse maybe it might need a little detergent and then rinse. WIndex, maybe. GooGone, also a maybe ( I expect it to damage the disk but who knows ) In general I'd go with Chuck's advice. He has done more work with disk and tapes than anyone here else except possibly Al. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 9:10:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying On 7/11/18 8:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Be wary though, domestic ovens apparently fluctuate wildly. Use a food dehydrator this is the unit I use for QIC tapes (weston 10 tray stainless steel dehydrator model 74-1001-2) https://www.ebay.com/itm//113143490361 [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/113143490361-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] Weston Commercial Stainless Steel 10 Tray Food Dehydrator 1000W 638029776257 | eBay www.ebay.com It is 1000 watts. It is in good used condition with no dings and in good working condition. Great for jerky, vegetables or fruit. | eBay! but I do them a couple dozen at at time From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:32:31 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 17:32:31 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net>, , Message-ID: I forgot one Butter. Also needs detergent cleaning afterwards. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 10:29:41 AM To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying I don't recall the concentration I used. I would recommend not using it for most conditions. I recall that I'd tried various other cleaning methods. I recall using water, water/detergent and may have even tried windex(?). None of the other things would touch it. The stuff on the surfaces was the adhesive use to hold the fiber envelope liners in place. I removed the disk from their envelopes and placed the disk on a clean flat plastic surface. I use swabs to rub the areas effected ( it looked similar to what we call screen fungus ). I went through a lot of swabs and I believe I rinsed them afterwards. There are a few other cleaning methods that one might try. I've never tried these myself The first might make you cringe a little. That is to use saliva. It is actually a type of digesting fluid. Of course, rinse it off when you get the offending stuff loose. Next is the smooth orange oil hand cleaner. ( not the stuff with pumas ). Really cleans things great and good for killing ants. Again, rinse maybe it might need a little detergent and then rinse. WIndex, maybe. GooGone, also a maybe ( I expect it to damage the disk but who knows ) In general I'd go with Chuck's advice. He has done more work with disk and tapes than anyone here else except possibly Al. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 9:10:14 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying On 7/11/18 8:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Be wary though, domestic ovens apparently fluctuate wildly. Use a food dehydrator this is the unit I use for QIC tapes (weston 10 tray stainless steel dehydrator model 74-1001-2) https://www.ebay.com/itm//113143490361 [https://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/113143490361-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] Weston Commercial Stainless Steel 10 Tray Food Dehydrator 1000W 638029776257 | eBay www.ebay.com It is 1000 watts. It is in good used condition with no dings and in good working condition. Great for jerky, vegetables or fruit. | eBay! but I do them a couple dozen at at time From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 11 13:05:43 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:05:43 -0700 (PDT) Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net>, Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Next is the smooth orange oil hand cleaner. ( not the stuff with pumas > ). Really cleans things great and good for killing ants. Again, rinse > maybe it might need a little detergent and then rinse. Don't use pumice to clean off the pumas. (they won't like it) Stick with well whale oil. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:12:16 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 18:12:16 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> , Message-ID: Hi Al I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend has this and I hope to get a copy next week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't know where you office is on the East bay side. It might be closer. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? cool, thanks! I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter for the drive. On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations > in 2009. I will email you directly with a link. From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Jul 11 13:12:59 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:12:59 -0700 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs Message-ID: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> Anyone know where the Step/Direction version of the FDD interface originated. So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and Memorex 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control of the motor. The earliest Step/Direction FDD I can find is the Shugart 800 which first shipped in September 1973. Tom From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 11 13:38:18 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 11:38:18 -0700 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> On 07/11/2018 11:12 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know where the Step/Direction version of the FDD interface > originated. > > So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and Memorex > 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control of the > motor. > > The earliest Step/Direction FDD I can find is the Shugart 800 which first > shipped in September 1973. Shugart is probably it, unless there's a hard drive interface that precedes it. Mostly a minimal bit of logical difference between the Step in/Step out and Step/Direction. One can be converted to the other rather easily. --Chuck From shadoooo at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 13:45:53 2018 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:45:53 +0200 Subject: A New Batch of Items in Sellam's Virtual Warehouse Message-ID: Hello, I sent you an email about the Votrax system. Thanks Andrea From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 11 13:59:55 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:59:55 -0500 Subject: Osborne 1 keyboard Message-ID: <01c401d41949$5b661230$12323690$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/osborne-1-keyboard.html I have no way to test it. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 11 14:20:10 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 14:20:10 -0500 Subject: TRS-80 Model 2000 Keyboard Message-ID: <01cf01d4194c$2fcfbf60$8f6f3e20$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/tandy-trs-80-model-2000-keyboard.html Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 11 15:05:23 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 13:05:23 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> Message-ID: <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org> that would be great. I've not been able to get Jason's images to boot I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it to recognize the HAL boot drives. Their is something odd about the drives, I've only been able to image one of the boot drives on a Linux machine even though they boot fine. On 7/11/18 11:12 AM, dwight wrote: > Hi Al > > ?I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend has this and I hope to get a copy next > week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't know where you office is on the East bay side. > It might be closer. > > Dwight > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk > *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM > *To:* cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? > ? > cool, thanks! > > I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited > the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter > for the drive. > > On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations >> in 2009.? I will email you directly with a link. > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 15:23:53 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 20:23:53 +0000 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net>, , Message-ID: I'm the victim of the spell checker. Thanks for the fix. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:05:43 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Next is the smooth orange oil hand cleaner. ( not the stuff with pumas > ). Really cleans things great and good for killing ants. Again, rinse > maybe it might need a little detergent and then rinse. Don't use pumice to clean off the pumas. (they won't like it) Stick with well whale oil. From sales at elecplus.com Wed Jul 11 15:31:18 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2018 15:31:18 -0500 Subject: Trying to make it easier to find keyboards Message-ID: <022501d41956$1fbaba80$5f302f80$@com> https://www.elecshopper.com/model-m-keyboards/?___store=rwd I know there are no products under some categories, and no stock under others, but does this help to make it easier to find things? Click on the links to see the products. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 12 03:06:13 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 10:06:13 +0200 (CEST) Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: <88dc69d8-164a-cfad-0e65-1c1afb59ccc9@bitsavers.org> References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <88dc69d8-164a-cfad-0e65-1c1afb59ccc9@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > On 7/11/18 2:21 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > >> I use Screen 99 for cleaning floppies > > MSDS > https://store.comet.bg/download-file.php?id=16956 > first ingredient listed; isopropyl alcohol Of course, somehow you need some "magic" in the stuff ;-) But as you might have seen, the weight in weight is 10% maximum. And when sprayed on the surface (only a small spot) it generates a nice solid foam. It hasn't dissolved the binder/oxide for now, not even on Wabash floppies (that in my experience aren't too horrible, some noname stuff is much worse). If I'm afraid that it might dissolve the media I can always test it first on the inner side next to the hub hole. And I don't rub the media with high pressure, only gently. It is important to extract the floppy from its sleeve for cleaning, though. Christian From lproven at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 05:59:44 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:59:44 +0200 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 11 Jul 2018 at 20:05, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Don't use pumice to clean off the pumas. (they won't like it) > Stick with well whale oil. Also great for rosewood, I hear. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From web at loomcom.com Thu Jul 12 08:58:57 2018 From: web at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 06:58:57 -0700 Subject: ITS DDT anecdote In-Reply-To: <1529283147.3540781.1411173848.7A1B4AB3@webmail.messagingengine.com> References: <1529283147.3540781.1411173848.7A1B4AB3@webmail.messagingengine.com> Message-ID: <1531403937.2079944.1438533376.4D823117@webmail.messagingengine.com> On Sun, Jun 17, 2018, at 5:52 PM, Seth Morabito wrote: > I'm trying desperately to remember an anecdote I remember reading not > too long ago about programming ITS using DDT. > [...] Replying to myself here, because I found it! Thanks to Rainer Joswig on Twitter for posting it. I will quote it here: "By way of Joe Marshall in comp.lang.lisp: Here's an anecdote I heard once about Minsky. He was showing a student how to use ITS to write a program. ITS was an unusual operating system in that the 'shell' was the DDT debugger. You ran programs by loading them into memory and jumping to the entry point. But you can also just start writing assembly code directly into memory from the DDT prompt. Minsky started with the null program. Obviously, it needs an entry point, so he defined a label for that. He then told the debugger to jump to that label. This immediately raised an error of there being no code at the jump target. So he wrote a few lines of code and restarted the jump instruction. This time it succeeded and the first few instructions were executed. When the debugger again halted, he looked at the register contents and wrote a few more lines. Again proceeding from where he left off he watched the program run the few more instructions. He developed the entire program by 'debugging' the null program." -Seth -- Seth Morabito web at loomcom.com From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 09:20:13 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 08:20:13 -0600 Subject: Null program (was Re: ITS DDT anecdote) Message-ID: That reminds me of one of my favorite computer trivia questions: What is the shortest useful CP/M program? From hagstrom at bu.edu Thu Jul 12 10:05:52 2018 From: hagstrom at bu.edu (Hagstrom, Paul) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:05:52 +0000 Subject: Null program (was Re: ITS DDT anecdote) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Jul 12, 2018, at 10:20 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > That reminds me of one of my favorite computer trivia questions: > > What is the shortest useful CP/M program? Oh yes, the "infinitely profitable program." There was a write up of this that I came across some time ago. It's a pretty cool program. Google can find it by searching that phrase. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:08:23 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 16:08:23 +0100 Subject: Null program (was Re: ITS DDT anecdote) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 3:20 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > That reminds me of one of my favorite computer trivia questions: > > What is the shortest useful CP/M program? My guess (and I am not a CP/M person) is that it's something like the 0-length .com file. This will not affect memory when run, but CP/M will then jump to 0x100 (normal .com file load address) and thus re-start the last program you ran. -tony From wdonzelli at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 10:48:39 2018 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:48:39 -0400 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> Message-ID: > So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and Memorex > 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control of the > motor. Someone asked (you?) on one of my Youtube videos for more detail about the 23FD's stepping method, so I made a video covering the finer details. https://youtu.be/AMPlJ7JayB4 -- Will From db at db.net Thu Jul 12 11:24:18 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:24:18 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain Message-ID: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. Anyone want them? Free to a good home. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 12 11:37:28 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:37:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: CHWiki issues fixed Message-ID: <20180712163728.9C27918C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> The two main issues with the CHWiki (non-logged in users not seeing the most recent versions of pages, and image uploads not working) have been dealt with. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 11:50:02 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:50:02 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> Message-ID: Doug Crawford has one of these, he may want this. On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:24 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. > Anyone want them? Free to a good home. > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > From t.gardner at computer.org Thu Jul 12 13:02:25 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 11:02:25 -0700 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> Message-ID: <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> Hi Chuck I agree it is easy to convert but I am surprised that a start-up would have the guts to change the "standard," whether it was Memorex, Potter or Century. I think before the 33FD Memorex was the market leader but I could be wrong. I've asked some SA founders the question. Does anyone know any Potter or Century FDD people from the early 70s? The early HDD interfaces I am aware of used a control cable with an 8-bit bus and a set of tag lines to define the bus - much more expensive to implement than the Step In/Step Out. Regards, Tom -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:38 AM To: Tom Gardner via cctalk Subject: Re: An historical nit about FDDs On 07/11/2018 11:12 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know where the Step/Direction version of the FDD interface > originated. > > So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and > Memorex > 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control > of the motor. > > The earliest Step/Direction FDD I can find is the Shugart 800 which > first shipped in September 1973. Shugart is probably it, unless there's a hard drive interface that precedes it. Mostly a minimal bit of logical difference between the Step in/Step out and Step/Direction. One can be converted to the other rather easily. --Chuck From kurtk7 at centurylink.net Thu Jul 12 13:37:52 2018 From: kurtk7 at centurylink.net (Kurt K) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 13:37:52 -0500 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> Message-ID: <4AF8FDF3-3194-4CD4-95ED-A19FC2D65967@centurylink.net> I have a SuperBrain and have been looking for a manual and disks. I will take it if it is still available. > On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:24, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. > Anyone want them? Free to a good home. > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:38:23 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:38:23 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> Message-ID: I'd be interested if Doug isn't. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:50 PM, Bill Degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Doug Crawford has one of these, he may want this. > > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:24 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. > > Anyone want them? Free to a good home. > > > > Diane > > -- > > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > > > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 13:40:48 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:40:48 -0300 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> IBM created the 8" diskette as an inexpensive and reliable means of loading microcode and shipped the first read only drives in 1971. Memorex did ship a hard sectored R/W drive some time in 1972 likely because Alan Shugart had jumped ship from IBM to Memorex.? Some sources credit Shugart with inventing the diskette drive but that is not true he had given the job to others on his team. ? The Memorex 650 seems to have an interface very similar to the IBM drives oddly enough, using step in and step out signals.? The next year IBM shipped its first R/W drive the single sided 33FD "Igar" a single sided soft sectored drive and larger capacity.? It was first used in the 3741/42 key to diskette machines but was used in a wide variety of IBM machines, as far as I know IBM never sold the bare drives. Because IBM never sold the drives themselves and the market impact of the first Memorex drive may not have been really big, there was no real standard so when Shugart Associates released the SA800 its proved to be very popular and its interface became the defacto standard. Paul. On 2018-07-12 3:02 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Hi Chuck > > I agree it is easy to convert but I am surprised that a start-up would have the guts to change the "standard," whether it was Memorex, Potter or Century. I think before the 33FD Memorex was the market leader but I could be wrong. I've asked some SA founders the question. Does anyone know any Potter or Century FDD people from the early 70s? > > The early HDD interfaces I am aware of used a control cable with an 8-bit bus and a set of tag lines to define the bus - much more expensive to implement than the Step In/Step Out. > > Regards, > > Tom > > -----Original Message----- > From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 11:38 AM > To: Tom Gardner via cctalk > Subject: Re: An historical nit about FDDs > > On 07/11/2018 11:12 AM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: >> Anyone know where the Step/Direction version of the FDD interface >> originated. >> >> So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and >> Memorex >> 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control >> of the motor. >> >> The earliest Step/Direction FDD I can find is the Shugart 800 which >> first shipped in September 1973. > Shugart is probably it, unless there's a hard drive interface that precedes it. Mostly a minimal bit of logical difference between the Step in/Step out and Step/Direction. One can be converted to the other rather easily. > > --Chuck > > > From db at db.net Thu Jul 12 13:51:42 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 14:51:42 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20180712185142.GB62037@night.db.net> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:24:18PM -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. > Anyone want them? Free to a good home. It has been spoken for and now I feel bad now that I don't have more to give away to everyone who spoke up. :-( I hope the recipient can make copies if the disks are still readable etc. Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 12 14:05:07 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 12:05:07 -0700 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5a6d7db1-3efd-d508-f218-9adeee56f1b4@sydex.com> On 07/12/2018 11:40 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Because IBM never sold the drives themselves and the market impact of > the first Memorex drive may not have been really big, there was no real > standard so when Shugart Associates released the SA800 its proved to be > very popular and its interface became the defacto standard. One thing that escapes modern sensibilities is how expensive the first floppy disk systems were. If you purchased one of the early microcomputers (IMSAI, Altair), a single-drive floppy disk system would run more than the CPU unit. Remember, there were initially no LSI floppy controllers--on the MDS, Intel rolled their own as a 2-board Multibus set. Some early systems used USART chips. IMSAI used another 8080 MPU for their controller. Data separation was a fairly new problem too, as floppy ISV and general signal stability was not as good as most hard drives. You're essentially using flexible, disposable media. So initially, the market was not terribly large. --Chuck From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Jul 12 14:05:56 2018 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:05:56 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: <20180712185142.GB62037@night.db.net> References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> <20180712185142.GB62037@night.db.net> Message-ID: Hi All, Diane was gracious enough to accept my request for the disks and documentation. I will certainly make images of the disks if they are readable and will check if the documentation is already archived. If not, I will archive it and provide links. If anyone needs a boot disk or software, I am fairly certain I made a boot disk from the Maslin Archives here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/disks/intertec/index.html Thanks again Diane. I appreciate it. Santo On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:51 PM Diane Bruce via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:24:18PM -0400, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > > I've discovered a SuperBrain manual and two floppy disks in my basement. > > Anyone want them? Free to a good home. > > It has been spoken for and now I feel bad now that I don't have more to > give away > to everyone who spoke up. :-( I hope the recipient can make copies if the > disks > are still readable etc. > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 14:06:59 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 19:06:59 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org> References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> , <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I may be that the 300 required some special init sequence to the processor. It seems like I recall that it needed to do a scan to initialize a couple of values. This may make it not work on a Sparcstation 5. I don't recall if we shipped units with this problem or if they made a rev of the silicon before shipping??? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:05:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? that would be great. I've not been able to get Jason's images to boot I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it to recognize the HAL boot drives. Their is something odd about the drives, I've only been able to image one of the boot drives on a Linux machine even though they boot fine. On 7/11/18 11:12 AM, dwight wrote: > Hi Al > > I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend has this and I hope to get a copy next > week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't know where you office is on the East bay side. > It might be closer. > > Dwight > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk > *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM > *To:* cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? > > cool, thanks! > > I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited > the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter > for the drive. > > On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations >> in 2009. I will email you directly with a link. > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 12 17:32:12 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 15:32:12 -0700 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it to recognize the HAL boot drives. Operator error on my part, didn't know about "drvconfig" and "disks" since I've never used Solaris 2.x before. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 12 18:52:49 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:52:49 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org> , Message-ID: Hi Al So, do you still need the CD? Also, my friend may have some manuals. I don't know if it is just Solaris stuff or HaL specific. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 3:32:12 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? > I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it to recognize the HAL boot drives. Operator error on my part, didn't know about "drvconfig" and "disks" since I've never used Solaris 2.x before. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 12 20:40:44 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 20:40:44 -0500 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5B48031C.50302@pico-systems.com> On 07/12/2018 01:40 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > IBM created the 8" diskette as an inexpensive and reliable > means of loading microcode and shipped the first read only > drives in 1971. I am quite certain the original FDD on the 370/168 used a pair of solenoid coils to ratchet the head in and out. I think the mechanism was a leadscrew and toothed wheel. I heard a 370/168 loading a microcode overlay and it sounded like a machine gun, even in a pretty loud machine room. I think the same scheme was used in the 370/145. Jon From djenner at earthlink.net Thu Jul 12 23:05:27 2018 From: djenner at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 21:05:27 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: Would Chuck's temperature and Al's oven be appropriate for old magtapes, too? On 7/11/18 9:10 AM, Al Kossow via cctech wrote: > > > On 7/11/18 8:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> Be wary though, domestic ovens apparently fluctuate wildly. > > Use a food dehydrator > > this is the unit I use for QIC tapes (weston 10 tray stainless steel dehydrator model 74-1001-2) > > https://www.ebay.com/itm//113143490361 > > but I do them a couple dozen at at time > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 01:23:39 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 12 Jul 2018 23:23:39 -0700 Subject: 8 inch floppies, decaying In-Reply-To: References: <5B455E0B.8040106@charter.net> <7e48f842-2d65-197b-1555-da473ab681e7@sydex.com> <0F578436-A7E5-488A-88E4-16C4F364FCF4@gmail.com> <20180711155737.2397827497@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <3d8536a6-d519-9040-976f-5bffc07723e7@sydex.com> On 07/12/2018 09:05 PM, David C. Jenner via cctech wrote: > Would Chuck's temperature and Al's oven be appropriate for old magtapes, > too? My "cooker" is home-built and heavily insulated. It has a 75W incandescent for heat and a low-speed fan for circulation. I use a PID controller to keep the temperature within limits. An RTD sensor sits in the middle of the chamber. With spacing for air circulation, I can do about 7 tapes at a time. My "tape tower" is constructed from a trimmed-down PVC toilet flange attached to a 3" lchedule 80 PVC pipe. Spacers are made from 4" diameter schedule 80 PVC, which fits nicely into the write-enable ring recess on each reel. Because of the insulation, it uses very little electricity. There's a 70C thermal fuse just in case things get out of hand. --Chuck From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Jul 13 06:37:45 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:37:45 +0200 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> Message-ID: <20180713113745.mf2rttetooq6jkzv@mooli.org.uk> On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 11:12:59AM -0700, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Anyone know where the Step/Direction version of the FDD interface > originated. > > So far as near as I can tell the earliest FDDs (IBM 23FD Minnow and Memorex > 650/651) used Step In/Step Out. The IBM 33FD Igar used direct control of the > motor. Having step-in and step-out gives the opportunity to do both at the same time, which is unlikely to go well. Step and direction just seems neater to me because it's essentially equivalent to clock/strobe and data, but perhaps that's just my modern prejudices. The choice of which scheme probably boils down to which was the idiomatic way to do sequential logic when the respective devices were designed. I wonder how one might design a floppy interface today. I suspect that it'd end up as a pair of TMDS links with some complex high-level multiplexing scheme. From db at db.net Fri Jul 13 08:04:30 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:04:30 -0400 Subject: SuperBrain In-Reply-To: References: <20180712162418.GA55711@night.db.net> <20180712185142.GB62037@night.db.net> Message-ID: <20180713130430.GA9231@night.db.net> On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 03:05:56PM -0400, Santo Nucifora wrote: > Hi All, Santo was first by about 12 minutes according to my mail logs. > Diane was gracious enough to accept my request for the disks and > documentation. I will certainly make images of the disks if they are > readable and will check if the documentation is already archived. If not, I have no idea if anything is salvageable or useful as the disks were not treated with kid gloves. The manual is rather short so again not sure if it is helpful to anyone. I know you lot will understand that I didn't want to simply bin these. > I will archive it and provide links. If anyone needs a boot disk or > software, I am fairly certain I made a boot disk from the Maslin Archives > here: http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/disks/intertec/index.html Hopefully something can be salvaged that is useful. > > Thanks again Diane. I appreciate it. > Santo Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 11:35:05 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 09:35:05 -0700 Subject: I hate HP 914x tapes Message-ID: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> Man, these things are annoying. All of the bands are bad, and they leave residue on the spools. There are no EOT BOT holes on the HP tape, and the drive locks the cartridge until you 'unload' it, which spins to the EOT soft region. Well, guess what, they leave the tape in a position where the residue ends up near the last block on the track, so it will read track 1 (4mb), or maybe 1-3 (12mb), then fail when it hits the gunk. You DON'T want to bake that gunk on! It is possible to remove it but DO NOT EVER USE ALCOHOL ON A QIC TAPE! It instantly takes off the binder. Water-based cleaner (like whiteboard cleaner) seems to work but it is extremely difficult to work with the tape and not damage it. My sympathies to anyone having to deal with recovery of this media. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 12:29:41 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:29:41 +0100 Subject: I hate HP 914x tapes In-Reply-To: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> References: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Man, these things are annoying. > > All of the bands are bad, and they leave residue on the spools. > There are no EOT BOT holes on the HP tape, and the drive locks I assume you mean the HP9144 and HP9145 drives/tapes. The HP9142 uses normal QIC24 formatting and does have the optical hole sensor (I have just checked the schematics). -tony From t.gardner at computer.org Fri Jul 13 13:04:33 2018 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:04:33 -0700 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <5B48031C.50302@pico-systems.com> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> <5B48031C.50302@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <000601d41ad3$f4c882b0$de598810$@computer.org> Jon: The 23FD used on most S/370 mainframes had a two solenoid and swash plate actuator, pulse the in solenoid to go in and the out solenoid to go out. IBM SJ in those days was very cost conscious and preferred mechanical parts over electronic, hence this mechanism instead of the stepper motor implement by most (all?) other FDD manufacturers. Chuck and Paul: It's all relative - key to disk systems were taking off and the IBM 3470 blessed the market. The 1973 Shugart Associates business plan acknowledged Memorex as the then market leader in FDDs - MRX had Mohawk Data Systems and had shipped product to 45 potential customers. SA estimated the market to be 327k units in 1973 growing to 633k by 1977, a big number in the 1970s and big enough to attract venture capital. The big customer turned out to be Wang which SA won. The FDD and FD were invented by a number of folks at IBM most of whom did join Al at Memorex see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_floppy_disk#/media/File:FDD_patents_collage.png All: The first product was the SA900 not the SA800; it had a step/direction interface, and my guess now it was to save an IC or two in the circuits to drive the stepper motor. Tom -----Original Message----- From: Jon Elson [mailto:elson at pico-systems.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 6:41 PM To: Paul Berger; General at ezwind.net; Discussion at ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: An historical nit about FDDs On 07/12/2018 01:40 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > IBM created the 8" diskette as an inexpensive and reliable means of > loading microcode and shipped the first read only drives in 1971. I am quite certain the original FDD on the 370/168 used a pair of solenoid coils to ratchet the head in and out. I think the mechanism was a leadscrew and toothed wheel. I heard a 370/168 loading a microcode overlay and it sounded like a machine gun, even in a pretty loud machine room. I think the same scheme was used in the 370/145. Jon -----Original Message----- From: Chuck Guzis [mailto:cclist at sydex.com] Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:05 PM To: Paul Berger via cctalk Subject: Re: An historical nit about FDDs On 07/12/2018 11:40 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Because IBM never sold the drives themselves and the market impact of > the first Memorex drive may not have been really big, there was no > real standard so when Shugart Associates released the SA800 its proved > to be very popular and its interface became the defacto standard. One thing that escapes modern sensibilities is how expensive the first floppy disk systems were. If you purchased one of the early microcomputers (IMSAI, Altair), a single-drive floppy disk system would run more than the CPU unit. Remember, there were initially no LSI floppy controllers--on the MDS, Intel rolled their own as a 2-board Multibus set. Some early systems used USART chips. IMSAI used another 8080 MPU for their controller. Data separation was a fairly new problem too, as floppy ISV and general signal stability was not as good as most hard drives. You're essentially using flexible, disposable media. So initially, the market was not terribly large. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 13:29:38 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:29:38 -0700 Subject: I hate HP 914x tapes In-Reply-To: References: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <53c4cd3b-57db-7f59-9afd-433ec9f6eda2@bitsavers.org> Correct, I meant the 16 or 32 track drives. There was a document floating around called 'hcdvsqic.txt' that I had recently uploaded to http://bitsavers.org/pdf/hp/tape/9144 I just found a more detailed document written in Jun, 1989 on the subject that I'm about to upload that goes into more detail by the same author. 7942 is completely incompatible with the 44 and 45 On 7/13/18 10:29 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 5:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: >> Man, these things are annoying. >> >> All of the bands are bad, and they leave residue on the spools. >> There are no EOT BOT holes on the HP tape, and the drive locks > > I assume you mean the HP9144 and HP9145 drives/tapes. The > HP9142 uses normal QIC24 formatting and does have the optical > hole sensor (I have just checked the schematics). > > -tony > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 13 13:32:54 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:32:54 -0400 Subject: GCC for pdp11 Message-ID: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Gentlepeople, Once in a while people ask about GCC. It has long had pdp11 support, but it hasn't received much attention. Recently I've done some cleanup on it, and some more is in the pipeline. One notable new feature is that it can now produce proper DEC Macro-11 syntax output. It has long had a -mdec-asm switch, but that used to produce GNU output. Now it produces DEC output (and -mgnu-asm is how you get output for "gas".) The optimizer is better, and a bunch of compiler failures are fixed. Undoubtedly there are more bugs to be worked on. Oh yes, for grins I told GCC to build not just a C compiler but a C++ and Fortran compiler as well. That seems to work (but I get an error building the libstdc++ library). I now have C++ translations of the RSTS standard header files common.mac and kernel.mac, and the DECnet definitions in netdef.sml. :-) If anyone wants to give this a try, the best way is to get the current code via Subversion (see gcc.gnu.org for details). Alternatively, get a weekly snapshot; the DEC support is in the current latest, though some optimizer work will appear in the next one. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 13:46:05 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 11:46:05 -0700 Subject: I hate HP 914x tapes In-Reply-To: <53c4cd3b-57db-7f59-9afd-433ec9f6eda2@bitsavers.org> References: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> <53c4cd3b-57db-7f59-9afd-433ec9f6eda2@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0f20f5bf-0f72-f6b8-aefe-e27af3a286da@bitsavers.org> On 7/13/18 11:29 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > 7942 is completely incompatible with the 44 and 45 sigh.. 9142 From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 14:26:17 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:26:17 -0500 Subject: New VCF Midwest Mailing List Message-ID: Hello all - I have created a mailing list for VCF Midwest news and announcements. You may already get your show news here or on the forums, but it will be useful to us in the future to have as many interested people as possible listed in one place. So, if you'd care to take a moment to drop an email (name optional) in the bucket, it would be most helpful. Mail volume will be low and of course, we will not sell or share your email with anyone. Here is the link: http://eepurl.com/dyuzub (Many of you may find yourselves already on the list - that is either because you've attended before, signed the paper sign-in sheet at the show, or have otherwise made yourselves known. The list site will tell you whether you're already signed up). Thank you and hope to see you in September, -j From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Jul 13 15:12:17 2018 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:12:17 +0100 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <877elyrj32.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Great news, Paul! I'll try and give this a go this weekend. Aaron Paul Koning via cctalk writes: > Gentlepeople, > > Once in a while people ask about GCC. It has long had pdp11 support, > but it hasn't received much attention. Recently I've done some > cleanup on it, and some more is in the pipeline. > > One notable new feature is that it can now produce proper DEC Macro-11 > syntax output. It has long had a -mdec-asm switch, but that used to > produce GNU output. Now it produces DEC output (and -mgnu-asm is how > you get output for "gas".) > > The optimizer is better, and a bunch of compiler failures are fixed. > Undoubtedly there are more bugs to be worked on. > > Oh yes, for grins I told GCC to build not just a C compiler but a C++ > and Fortran compiler as well. That seems to work (but I get an error > building the libstdc++ library). I now have C++ translations of the > RSTS standard header files common.mac and kernel.mac, and the DECnet > definitions in netdef.sml. :-) > > If anyone wants to give this a try, the best way is to get the current > code via Subversion (see gcc.gnu.org for details). Alternatively, get > a weekly snapshot; the DEC support is in the current latest, though > some optimizer work will appear in the next one. > > paul -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 15:19:39 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:19:39 +0200 Subject: GCC Ada for Linux/MIPS/BE and Linux/HPPA2 Message-ID: hi is there any chance someone has a working gcc-ada compiler? for - Linux/MIPS (big endian, MIPS3, MIPS4 or MIPS32) - Linux/HPPA2 I have successfully compiled gcc-ada for SGI_IRIX (MIPS4/BE) but ... every attempt to create a cross-compiler(1) fails on HPPA I have never seen an Ada compiler (1) host = Irix-MIPS4/BE target = Linux/MIPS32/BE From svens at stackframe.org Fri Jul 13 15:27:45 2018 From: svens at stackframe.org (Sven Schnelle) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:27:45 +0200 Subject: I hate HP 914x tapes In-Reply-To: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> References: <022e0555-199e-a5a0-dcdf-ca2d5bd668a0@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Al, thank you putting so much effort into reading these old Tapes. Really appreciate it. Sven On 07/13/2018 06:35 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Man, these things are annoying. > > All of the bands are bad, and they leave residue on the spools. > There are no EOT BOT holes on the HP tape, and the drive locks > the cartridge until you 'unload' it, which spins to the EOT soft > region. Well, guess what, they leave the tape in a position where > the residue ends up near the last block on the track, so it will > read track 1 (4mb), or maybe 1-3 (12mb), then fail when it hits > the gunk. > > You DON'T want to bake that gunk on! It is possible to remove it > but DO NOT EVER USE ALCOHOL ON A QIC TAPE! It instantly takes off > the binder. Water-based cleaner (like whiteboard cleaner) seems to > work but it is extremely difficult to work with the tape and not > damage it. > > My sympathies to anyone having to deal with recovery of this media. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 15:35:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 13:35:26 -0700 Subject: GCC Ada for Linux/MIPS/BE and Linux/HPPA2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 01:19 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > is there any chance someone has a working gcc-ada compiler? for > - Linux/MIPS (big endian, MIPS3, MIPS4 or MIPS32) > - Linux/HPPA2 > > I have successfully compiled gcc-ada for SGI_IRIX (MIPS4/BE) > but ... every attempt to create a cross-compiler(1) fails How close would the PIC32 gcc compiler/toolchain be? The PIC32 is a MIPS-based MCU. --Chuck From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 15:39:39 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:39:39 +0200 Subject: GCC Ada for Linux/MIPS/BE and Linux/HPPA2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > How close would the PIC32 gcc compiler/toolchain be? The PIC32 is a > MIPS-based MCU. inside PIC32 there is a MIPS32-R2 core, but the toolchain is not OS-profiled it's metal bare (without an OS, and in this case Linux requires a lot of considerations) besides, the C compiler and libraries (and also linker scripts) have been modified by Microchip in short it doesn't help From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 15:43:04 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 22:43:04 +0200 Subject: GCC Ada for Linux/MIPS/BE and Linux/HPPA2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: besides we are experimenting problems supporting Ada's exceptions on Irix with gcc v4.7.1 http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=110&p=329&sid=8b037f041d4fe8c74528008402b57762#p329 it's not clear if the problem is related to gcc, rather than to binutils here some hints found on the internet (but it's an old news, 2005) http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/retrocomputing/sgi/dev/gcc-test-frame-for-mips/readme.txt From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 13 16:12:34 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:12:34 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... Message-ID: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Does anyone have any experience with the GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 floppy drive emulator that reads ""images from a USB flash drive? Good? Bad? Indifferent? Run for the hills? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 16:42:31 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 14:42:31 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> On 07/13/2018 02:12 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with the GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 floppy drive > emulator that reads ""images from a USB flash drive? > > Good? > Bad? > Indifferent? > Run for the hills? Yup, got a few of them here. Depends on your needs. If what you need is something that supports bog-standard 2x18x512 "1.44M" floppy images, it's pretty decent right out of the box. It uses an STM32F105 MCU and some stuff to accommodate 3.3V-to-5V logic shifts. On the other hand, if you want to use this with more general floppy images, you can install the HxC firmware which supports lots of formats. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 13 16:50:30 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:50:30 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 03:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Yup, got a few of them here. Depends on your needs. If what you need > is something that supports bog-standard 2x18x512 "1.44M" floppy images, > it's pretty decent right out of the box. Cool! > It uses an STM32F105 MCU and some stuff to accommodate 3.3V-to-5V > logic shifts. Interesting. > On the other hand, if you want to use this with more general floppy > images, you can install the HxC firmware which supports lots of formats. Hum. I'll have to check that out. Do you happen to have any links handy? (I'll do a web search for it anyway.) I was wondering what images looked like on the USB flash drive. I found a couple of pages that talk about the SFR1M44-U100 using it's own storage format (that probably doesn't even qualify as a file system). I've also found tools and directions on how to work with it under Linux using loopback devices. I'll check out the HxC firmware as it would be really nice if it could work with standard images on a file system that I can mount under Linux. Thank you for the information Chuck. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 17:13:52 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 15:13:52 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> Message-ID: <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> On 07/13/2018 02:50 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I was wondering what images looked like on the USB flash drive.? I found > a couple of pages that talk about the SFR1M44-U100 using it's own > storage format (that probably doesn't even qualify as a file system). > I've also found tools and directions on how to work with it under Linux > using loopback devices. http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1683 In the as-provided form, it's just a bunch of sector-by-sector data written to a predefined set of addresses on the flash drive. No file system at all. --Chuck From tingox at gmail.com Fri Jul 13 17:51:10 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 00:51:10 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On the other hand, if you want to use this with more general floppy > images, you can install the HxC firmware which supports lots of formats. > Or FlashFloppy firmware: https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy HTH -- Regards, Torfinn Ingolfsen From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Jul 13 19:12:17 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 00:12:17 +0000 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 02:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > Gentlepeople, > > Once in a while people ask about GCC. It has long had pdp11 support, but it hasn't received much attention. Recently I've done some cleanup on it, and some more is in the pipeline. > > One notable new feature is that it can now produce proper DEC Macro-11 syntax output. It has long had a -mdec-asm switch, but that used to produce GNU output. Now it produces DEC output (and -mgnu-asm is how you get output for "gas".) > > The optimizer is better, and a bunch of compiler failures are fixed. Undoubtedly there are more bugs to be worked on. > > Oh yes, for grins I told GCC to build not just a C compiler but a C++ and Fortran compiler as well. That seems to work (but I get an error building the libstdc++ library). I now have C++ translations of the RSTS standard header files common.mac and kernel.mac, and the DECnet definitions in netdef.sml. :-) > > If anyone wants to give this a try, the best way is to get the current code via Subversion (see gcc.gnu.org for details). Alternatively, get a weekly snapshot; the DEC support is in the current latest, though some optimizer work will appear in the next one. > > I am going to have to take a look at this.? I have been meaning to dig out a really old version of GCC because I thought they removed all the PDP-11 stuff ages ago.? This could be fun again. bill From imp at bsdimp.com Fri Jul 13 19:18:39 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 18:18:39 -0600 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > On 07/13/2018 02:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > Gentlepeople, > > > > Once in a while people ask about GCC. It has long had pdp11 support, > but it hasn't received much attention. Recently I've done some cleanup on > it, and some more is in the pipeline. > > > > One notable new feature is that it can now produce proper DEC Macro-11 > syntax output. It has long had a -mdec-asm switch, but that used to > produce GNU output. Now it produces DEC output (and -mgnu-asm is how you > get output for "gas".) > > > > The optimizer is better, and a bunch of compiler failures are fixed. > Undoubtedly there are more bugs to be worked on. > > > > Oh yes, for grins I told GCC to build not just a C compiler but a C++ > and Fortran compiler as well. That seems to work (but I get an error > building the libstdc++ library). I now have C++ translations of the RSTS > standard header files common.mac and kernel.mac, and the DECnet definitions > in netdef.sml. :-) > > > > If anyone wants to give this a try, the best way is to get the current > code via Subversion (see gcc.gnu.org for details). Alternatively, get a > weekly snapshot; the DEC support is in the current latest, though some > optimizer work will appear in the next one. > > > > > > I am going to have to take a look at this. I have been meaning > to dig out a really old version of GCC because I thought they > removed all the PDP-11 stuff ages ago. This could be fun again. > Can it build interesting things like V7 and/or 2BSD? Warner From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 13 19:26:35 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 17:26:35 -0700 Subject: DECstation firmware archive? Message-ID: <3e177bcb-6559-eee2-527e-2ae79ccec21a@bitsavers.org> Are the firmware eproms for the DECstation archived anywhere? From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Jul 13 20:04:54 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 21:04:54 -0400 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 13, 2018, at 8:18 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 6:12 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 07/13/2018 02:32 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> Gentlepeople, >>> >>> Once in a while people ask about GCC. It has long had pdp11 support, >> but it hasn't received much attention. Recently I've done some cleanup on >> it, and some more is in the pipeline. >>> >>> One notable new feature is that it can now produce proper DEC Macro-11 >> syntax output. It has long had a -mdec-asm switch, but that used to >> produce GNU output. Now it produces DEC output (and -mgnu-asm is how you >> get output for "gas".) >>> >>> The optimizer is better, and a bunch of compiler failures are fixed. >> Undoubtedly there are more bugs to be worked on. >>> >>> Oh yes, for grins I told GCC to build not just a C compiler but a C++ >> and Fortran compiler as well. That seems to work (but I get an error >> building the libstdc++ library). I now have C++ translations of the RSTS >> standard header files common.mac and kernel.mac, and the DECnet definitions >> in netdef.sml. :-) >>> >>> If anyone wants to give this a try, the best way is to get the current >> code via Subversion (see gcc.gnu.org for details). Alternatively, get a >> weekly snapshot; the DEC support is in the current latest, though some >> optimizer work will appear in the next one. >>> >>> >> >> I am going to have to take a look at this. I have been meaning >> to dig out a really old version of GCC because I thought they >> removed all the PDP-11 stuff ages ago. This could be fun again. >> > > Can it build interesting things like V7 and/or 2BSD? > > Warner I don't know; I have not tried that. One point that may be relevant. GCC typically supports several variants for any given target processor, for different operating systems or the like. And the pdp11 target at one point had a 2bsd variant. That one was indeed removed some years ago. I haven't yet tried to bring it back, partly due to lack of experience with 2BSD. But I'm thinking about it. My expectation is that the code would compile fine, but possibly might not link or produce a valid binary if there are ABI differences or library mismatches. Input from those who know this stuff better would be helpful. Note that contributions are welcome; there hasn't been much in recent years but there has been a bit occasionally, and I certainly would appreciate that. Finally, if you spot bugs, the GCC Bugzilla machinery would probably be the best way to report them, though you can email me if you want for an initial check. paul From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Fri Jul 13 21:57:07 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:57:07 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 04:13 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1683 Thank you. > In the as-provided form, it's just a bunch of sector-by-sector data > written to a predefined set of addresses on the flash drive. No file > system at all. Reading about the SFR1M44-U100 and the raw sector allocation made me think about modifying the Linux kernel for the 3rd time. I feel like it should be possible to add a partitioning scheme that is the SFR1M44-U100 layouts. I.e. disk1 corresponds to memory address 1, disk2 corresponds to memory address 2, etc. The first time was to hack the Emulex LightPulse driver to support the high LUN numbers of the Compaq RA-4000 & RA-4100. The second time was pontificating the possibility of causing the Linux bridge code to forward frames that bridges are supposed to filter, to support a very specific use case. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 22:40:59 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:40:59 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3b67db2c-cedc-65cb-cb3e-f79da63c289e@sydex.com> On 07/13/2018 07:57 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/13/2018 04:13 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1683 > > Thank you. > >> In the as-provided form, it's just a bunch of sector-by-sector data >> written to a predefined set of addresses on the flash drive.? No file >> system at all. > > Reading about the SFR1M44-U100 and the raw sector allocation made me > think about modifying the Linux kernel for the 3rd time.? I feel like it > should be possible to add a partitioning scheme that is the SFR1M44-U100 > layouts.? I.e. disk1 corresponds to memory address 1, disk2 corresponds > to memory address 2, etc. > > The first time was to hack the Emulex LightPulse driver to support the > high LUN numbers of the Compaq RA-4000 & RA-4100.? The second time was > pontificating the possibility of causing the Linux bridge code to > forward frames that bridges are supposed to filter, to support a very > specific use case. > > > -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 13 22:44:01 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 20:44:01 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> On 07/13/2018 07:57 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/13/2018 04:13 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> http://torlus.com/floppy/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1683 > > Thank you. Please ignore my earlier non-reply--I hit the wrong button. Actually, given that allocation is in fixed units, it would be pretty simple to plug in a valid partition table and dummy FAT32 filesystem image with the disk space pre-allocated on the USB flash. But I'd look at the alternative firmware--it may well use a standard filesystem scheme. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Jul 13 23:11:55 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 13 Jul 2018 23:11:55 -0500 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <000601d41ad3$f4c882b0$de598810$@computer.org> References: <009c01d41942$cd86da90$68948fb0$@computer.org> <1820af86-e223-2dbf-0d18-3c128117d887@sydex.com> <008801d41a0a$7d944090$78bcc1b0$@computer.org> <830601b0-7203-449d-5feb-034619b030d7@gmail.com> <5B48031C.50302@pico-systems.com> <000601d41ad3$f4c882b0$de598810$@computer.org> Message-ID: <5B49780B.10208@pico-systems.com> On 07/13/2018 01:04 PM, Tom Gardner via cctalk wrote: > Jon: > The 23FD used on most S/370 mainframes had a two solenoid and swash plate actuator, pulse the in solenoid to go in and the out solenoid to go out. > IBM SJ in those days was very cost conscious and preferred mechanical parts over electronic, hence this mechanism instead of the stepper motor implement by most (all?) other FDD manufacturers. Right, this is what I heard and saw on a 370/168. I THINK the 370/145 used the same drive. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Jul 14 07:57:49 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 08:57:49 -0400 (EDT) Subject: An historical nit about FDDs Message-ID: <20180714125749.770BB18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > I THINK the 370/145 used the same drive. The "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems" book doesn't say so explicitly (it just says Minnow - the one with the solenoids - was a"incorporated in .. the System/370 processors", pg. 517), but given that the follow-on drive (Figaro/Igar) didn't start shipping until 1973 (pg. 519), and the /145 started shipping in 1971, it pretty much had to have had a Minnow. Noel From dab at froghouse.org Sat Jul 14 08:46:15 2018 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 05:46:15 -0800 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> Message-ID: <78dca167-92b5-0ab6-e5a9-588e092dbc81@froghouse.org> Hey, glad to hear of some improvement on GCC for the PDP-11.? Last spring I ended up side-tracked on the QSIC project and working more on FPGA issues than writing PDP-11 code but that's going to change here at some point.? I still want to put a soft PDP-11 into the FPGA as an I/O controller and will need to be writing code for it. For the moment, I'm off at my summer job in Alaska but when I get home this fall, it's back to working away on the QSIC and maybe my PDP-10 project where I'm thinking I may also use a soft PDP-11 as an I/O processor.? Anyway, I'll grab up the new GCC and see if my issues with the 'volatile' keyword are still there. Dave From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jul 14 10:50:55 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 10:50:55 -0500 Subject: An historical nit about FDDs In-Reply-To: <20180714125749.770BB18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180714125749.770BB18C085@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5B4A1BDF.4040106@pico-systems.com> On 07/14/2018 07:57 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jon Elson > > > I THINK the 370/145 used the same drive. > > The "IBM's 360 and Early 370 Systems" book doesn't say so explicitly (it just > says Minnow - the one with the solenoids - was a"incorporated in .. the > System/370 processors", pg. 517), but given that the follow-on drive > (Figaro/Igar) didn't start shipping until 1973 (pg. 519), and the /145 started > shipping in 1971, it pretty much had to have had a Minnow. > Well, there were two major variants of the 370/145, that had major changes at least to the power system. The first version had many small power regulator modules, the later had two HUGE regulators (390 A each, at +1.25 V and -3 V). So, they could have updated a bunch of other features at the time of that change. Jon From dan at ekoan.com Sat Jul 14 11:14:06 2018 From: dan at ekoan.com (Dan Veeneman) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:14:06 -0400 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes Message-ID: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> Hello, I recently received the following request: > I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an > HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. > I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have > simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. Does anyone have experience and the ability to read such a tape? Cheers, Dan From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jul 14 11:17:01 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:17:01 -0400 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 7/14/2018 9:14:22 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Hello, I recently received the following request: > I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an > HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. > I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have > simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. Does anyone have experience and the ability to read such a tape? Cheers, Dan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 11:59:10 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 09:59:10 -0700 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> Message-ID: On 07/14/2018 09:14 AM, Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > I recently received the following request: > >> I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an >> HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. >> I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have >> simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. > > Does anyone have experience and the ability to read such a tape? I can read 7-track as well as 9-track (800 NRZI, 1600 PE and 6250 GCR) tapes. My output format is SIMH .TAP files. Interpretation is up to you. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 14 12:13:13 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 11:13:13 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/13/2018 09:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Actually, given that allocation is in fixed units, it would be pretty > simple to plug in a valid partition table and dummy FAT32 filesystem > image with the disk space pre-allocated on the USB flash. Possibly. I would want to likely use mount the discrete images as file systems directly. So if they were considered partitions and had /dev entries for them, I could just mount them directly. In fact, one of the tricks I found was to use a special mount command that did that with parameters. mount -o loop,offset=$[15*1536]k,sizelimit=1440k /dev/sdb1 /mnt/tmp I've got to say that I really like the idea / knowledge that loopback devices can be constrained to a part of a file / device. IMHO that could come in handy accessing partitions within a whole drive image (via dd). }:-) There are more details in a comment on the following page: Link - Review: GoTek System SFR1M44-U100K USB 1000 Floppy Disk Emulator - http://goughlui.com/2013/05/19/review-gotek-system-sfr1m44-u100k-usb-1000-floppy-disk-emulator/ > But I'd look at the alternative firmware--it may well use a standard > filesystem scheme. I am planing on trying the FlashFloppy firmware. I also ordered the OLED display. ;-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Jul 14 12:51:44 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:51:44 -0400 Subject: GCC for pdp11 In-Reply-To: <78dca167-92b5-0ab6-e5a9-588e092dbc81@froghouse.org> References: <88247639-B07E-4AB3-8E4F-9A624CC028A5@comcast.net> <78dca167-92b5-0ab6-e5a9-588e092dbc81@froghouse.org> Message-ID: > On Jul 14, 2018, at 9:46 AM, David Bridgham via cctalk wrote: > > Hey, glad to hear of some improvement on GCC for the PDP-11. Last > spring I ended up side-tracked on the QSIC project and working more on > FPGA issues than writing PDP-11 code but that's going to change here at > some point. I still want to put a soft PDP-11 into the FPGA as an I/O > controller and will need to be writing code for it. > > For the moment, I'm off at my summer job in Alaska but when I get home > this fall, it's back to working away on the QSIC and maybe my PDP-10 > project where I'm thinking I may also use a soft PDP-11 as an I/O > processor. Anyway, I'll grab up the new GCC and see if my issues with > the 'volatile' keyword are still there. I didn't directly address anything like that, but it may well be that things are better. "Volatile" is a very tricky area. There is detailed discussion in the GCC manual about when volatile objects are accessed. You may want to review that. Sometimes the rules are not precisely what you might expect. paul From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sat Jul 14 14:14:12 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:14:12 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! Message-ID: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Jul 14 14:15:44 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 19:15:44 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Wonderful news! Here?s to a quick recovery! RichC Get Outlook for iOS On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 3:14 PM -0400, "Daniel Seagraves via cctalk" wrote: Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. From shumaker at att.net Sat Jul 14 14:42:34 2018 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:42:34 -0700 Subject: uVax cabinet wheels Message-ID: <30490931-8e2a-3327-53e4-3529cf214d13@att.net> Anyone know a source for replacement hard molded wheels that would fit a MicroVax 4000 low profile cabinet base??? I'm missing two and the other two may as well be gone given how functional they are.??? Mounting hardware is still intact, it's just the wheels that I need.. Steve Shumaker From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 14:44:53 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:44:53 +0200 Subject: GCC Ada for Linux/MIPS/BE and Linux/HPPA2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: umm, it seems something has been released but I have never seen it (i.e. gnat for HPUX? bah ...) --------------- Ada Core Technologies has released the following versions of release 3.10p of the GNAT Ada 95 compiler. These versions should be available shortly on the various mirror sites that provide latest GNAT versions DEC Unix HPPA HPUX x86 Linux MIPS IRIX POWER PC AIX SPARC SOLARIS SPARC SUNOS x86 NT/Win95 x86 OS/2 Power PC (Mac) Machten Corresponding source and documentation releases have also been made. 2018-07-13 22:43 GMT+02:00 Carlo Pisani : > besides > we are experimenting problems supporting Ada's exceptions on Irix with > gcc v4.7.1 > > http://www.downthebunker.xyz/wonderland/reloaded/bazaar/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=110&p=329&sid=8b037f041d4fe8c74528008402b57762#p329 > > it's not clear if the problem is related to gcc, rather than to binutils > > here some hints found on the internet (but it's an old news, 2005) > > http://93.55.217.0/wonderland/chunk_of/stuff/public/retrocomputing/sgi/dev/gcc-test-frame-for-mips/readme.txt From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 14 14:47:21 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 12:47:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> from Daniel Seagraves via cctalk at "Jul 14, 18 02:14:12 pm" Message-ID: <201807141947.w6EJlLxl25166056@floodgap.com> > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the > hospital recovering. Will update when able. A tremendous blessing. Glad to hear! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- select unique ("Just another SQL hacker") jash from id_rec order by 1; ----- From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Jul 14 14:47:34 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:47:34 -0500 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <5B4A5356.5040804@pico-systems.com> On 07/14/2018 11:14 AM, Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: > Hello, > > I recently received the following request: > >> I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an >> HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. >> I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have >> simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. > Does anyone have experience and the ability to read such a tape? > > > What density and number of tracks? I currently have capability to read 1600 (PE) and 6250 (GCR) tapes in 9-track format. No 7-track or 800 BPI capability, however. Jon From kurtk7 at centurylink.net Sat Jul 14 15:43:35 2018 From: kurtk7 at centurylink.net (Kurt K) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:43:35 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Great news! A fast and smooth recovery. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. > From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 15:43:44 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:43:44 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >>Does anyone have any experience with the GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 floppy drive emulator that reads ""images from a USB flash drive? I love them, I see FlashFloppy has also been mentioned which is also excellent. Keir Fraser (flashfloppy) is constantly updating it to add new support for formats suggested by folk either on the facebook group or on the github repository. It will support a lot of image formats natively and can be configured as IBM or Shugart interface though only as DS0 or DS1. They've let me bring a lot of my collection back to life. Cheers, -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 14 July 2018 at 18:13, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/13/2018 09:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> Actually, given that allocation is in fixed units, it would be pretty >> simple to plug in a valid partition table and dummy FAT32 filesystem image >> with the disk space pre-allocated on the USB flash. >> > > Possibly. > > I would want to likely use mount the discrete images as file systems > directly. So if they were considered partitions and had /dev entries for > them, I could just mount them directly. > > In fact, one of the tricks I found was to use a special mount command that > did that with parameters. > > mount -o loop,offset=$[15*1536]k,sizelimit=1440k /dev/sdb1 /mnt/tmp > > I've got to say that I really like the idea / knowledge that loopback > devices can be constrained to a part of a file / device. IMHO that could > come in handy accessing partitions within a whole drive image (via dd). > }:-) > > There are more details in a comment on the following page: > > Link - Review: GoTek System SFR1M44-U100K USB 1000 Floppy Disk Emulator > - http://goughlui.com/2013/05/19/review-gotek-system-sfr1m44- > u100k-usb-1000-floppy-disk-emulator/ > > But I'd look at the alternative firmware--it may well use a standard >> filesystem scheme. >> > > I am planing on trying the FlashFloppy firmware. > > I also ordered the OLED display. ;-) > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jul 14 15:42:44 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:42:44 -0700 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B2E2@mail.bensene.com> Daniel S wrote: > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. That is fantastic and blessed news! Best to you for a quick and healthy recovery. You've got a lot of classiccmp folks keeping you in their thoughts and prayers. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 15:46:31 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:46:31 -0400 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: All the best for excellent recovery! bb On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 4:43 PM, Kurt K via cctalk wrote: > Great news! A fast and smooth recovery. > > Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: >> >> Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. >> > From geneb at deltasoft.com Sat Jul 14 15:51:45 2018 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:51:45 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the > hospital recovering. Will update when able. \o/ g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 14 15:53:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:53:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? Yes. And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC I don't know the token list for it. You MIGHT be able to find that in one of the early manuals for it (1969), possibly as an appendix. newline is 0D,0A Saving a file in UN-tokenized form is done with "CSAVE". (similar to the "SAVE xxx,A in Microsoft BASIC) If writing a conversion program for it is an unsurmountable obstacle, then all that you need to do is to send me back in time to 1960. That will give me almost a decade to get established and get the money together, so that when the machine is first released, I will get hold of one, and write a program in BASIC to detokenize a stored BASIC file, and save it in untokenized form. I will then put a copy of that BASIC utility program onto the tape that you will end up with. To leave enough space on the tape for the other stuff, I will store that program in tokenized form. Optionally, I can set up a portfolio for you then, to fund the time machine. NOTE: I have made a similar open offer to John Titor. So do it quickly to be first! Offer is for a ONE-WAY trip. Round-trip is not acceptable. NOTE: the language BASIC is an acronym for "Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code." ALL CAPS ! The basic programs and utilities that come with the machine that are not written in BASIC are not tokenized. The language was developed by Thomas E. Kurtz and John G. Kemeny at Dartmouth College in 1963. One of their "basic" oremises was "a number is a number", and that people using the language shouldn't have to understand the difference between integer and floating point. They abandoned their offspring for decades, and it wasn't until mid 1980s that they ever even looked at the BASIC that was present, even built-in, on most personal computers! They finally noticed how the adult had grown up, and were SHOCKED at "street BASIC", and how people such as billg (MICROS~1) and Gordon Eubanks (CBASIC) had corrupted it. So, they created and marketed "TRUE BASIC" in 1985, which was a structured compiled language, that returned to the true faith. "I think I'll pass up the opportunity to become a born-again True BASIC believer. I'll enjoy my Microsoft and CBASIC heresies." - Jerry Pournelle -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From rickb at bensene.com Sat Jul 14 15:50:32 2018 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 13:50:32 -0700 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B2E3@mail.bensene.com> Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: > > I recently received the following request: > >> I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an >> HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. >> I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have >> simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. > > Does anyone have experience and the ability to read such a tape? ..and Chuck responded: >I can read 7-track as well as 9-track (800 NRZI, 1600 PE and 6250 GCR) >tapes. My output format is SIMH .TAP files. Interpretation is up to you. Once you get .TAP files, here's a link to the tools you need to extract the catalog directories, as well as decode the BASIC programs on the tape. They work fantastic: http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tsbutils/ Once you get the tape read and have a .tap image, please put it somewhere where Time Shared BASIC fans can download it and take a look at what's there. If it's a HIBernate tape, could potentially be fired up under SimH and run just as it was the day the tape was made. If it's a 9-Track tape, I do have ability to read them, but no 7-track capability. I'm in Oregon. -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 14 16:10:24 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:10:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Apparently Eric Smith has already done so. http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tsbutils/ You can still send me back to the sixties. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 14 16:15:57 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 14:15:57 -0700 Subject: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B2E3@mail.bensene.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107B2E3@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <08428157-3a2c-dc35-064f-0e636049e0ef@bitsavers.org> On 7/14/18 1:50 PM, Rick Bensene via cctalk wrote: > Dan Veeneman via cctalk wrote: >> >> I recently received the following request: >> >>> I just recently found a (9 or 7 track?) tape of mine made on an >>> HP2000 (probably C, maybe F) in 1977 from a DUMP of two accounts. >>> I've had it for 40 years with nothing to process it. Now I have >>> simh to process it on, but nothing to read it with. >> It will be a 9-track tape. I'd strongly suggest sending it to Chuck to recover. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 14 16:34:50 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 15:34:50 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/14/2018 02:43 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I love them, I see FlashFloppy has also been mentioned which is also > excellent. Keir Fraser (flashfloppy) is constantly updating it to add new > support for formats suggested by folk either on the facebook group or on > the github repository. It will support a lot of image formats natively and > can be configured as IBM or Shugart interface though only as DS0 or DS1. *nod* I really like that FlashFloppy will allow the same single device to support both 1.44 MB and 720 kB floppies. Aside: I've got to say, I've never really messed with the various numbers associated with floppy drives, but the 1536 really surprised me. I apparently have a lot of history to learn at some point. > They've let me bring a lot of my collection back to life. Yay. I'm messing with a machine that I can likely get the floppy drive to work (it's only 25 years old). But I have exactly one other floppy drive and no floppy disks that I trust. So I figured that I might as well convert to emulation and catch up with all the images that I'm using in virtualization. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 17:40:20 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:40:20 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >>On 07/14/2018 02:43 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > I love them, I see FlashFloppy has also been mentioned which is also > excellent. Keir Fraser (flashfloppy) is constantly updating it to add new > support for formats suggested by folk either on the facebook group or on > the github repository. It will support a lot of image formats natively and > can be configured as IBM or Shugart interface though only as DS0 or DS1. > >*nod* >I really like that FlashFloppy will allow the same single device to support both 1.44 MB and 720 kB floppies. >Aside: I've got to say, I've never really messed with the various numbers associated with floppy drives, but the 1536 really surprised me. >I apparently have a lot of history to learn at some point. Since I got my first Gotek last year I've learned more about floppy drives and disks than I ever thought would be neccesary but there's SO many different formats out there that I never knew about. In the 80s my exposure to floppies was all DEC so I knew about hard/soft sectored drives and that RX50s had to be read in an RX50 drive. PC wise it was all IBM-related so a disk from one machine would work in another (alignment issues notwithstanding). I'd used CP/M at school but assumed all CP/M machines used the same disk format. Wrong! Fortunately I still find learning fun :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 14 July 2018 at 22:34, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/14/2018 02:43 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> I love them, I see FlashFloppy has also been mentioned which is also >> excellent. Keir Fraser (flashfloppy) is constantly updating it to add new >> support for formats suggested by folk either on the facebook group or on >> the github repository. It will support a lot of image formats natively and >> can be configured as IBM or Shugart interface though only as DS0 or DS1. >> > > *nod* > > I really like that FlashFloppy will allow the same single device to > support both 1.44 MB and 720 kB floppies. > > Aside: I've got to say, I've never really messed with the various numbers > associated with floppy drives, but the 1536 really surprised me. > > I apparently have a lot of history to learn at some point. > > They've let me bring a lot of my collection back to life. >> > > Yay. > > I'm messing with a machine that I can likely get the floppy drive to work > (it's only 25 years old). But I have exactly one other floppy drive and no > floppy disks that I trust. So I figured that I might as well convert to > emulation and catch up with all the images that I'm using in virtualization. > > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Jul 14 17:44:42 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 18:44:42 -0400 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <41e31ab4-3767-bf7b-95be-79d62ff00ac5@telegraphics.com.au> On 2018-07-14 5:10 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Apparently Eric Smith has already done so. > http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/software/tsbutils/ > > > You can still send me back to the sixties. > Hey, form an orderly queue, please! From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 14 18:04:41 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:04:41 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/14/2018 04:40 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Since I got my first Gotek last year I've learned more about floppy > drives and disks than I ever thought would be neccesary but there's SO > many different formats out there that I never knew about. Yep. I expect that I will be learning things too. In fact, I'm planing on ~> counting on exactly that. Thankfully I've had some exposure through friends and various mailing lists; cctalk, TUHS, COFF, and various newsgroups; comp.os.vms being predominant. > In the 80s my exposure to floppies was all DEC so I knew about hard/soft > sectored drives and that RX50s had to be read in an RX50 drive. PC wise > it was all IBM-related so a disk from one machine would work in another > (alignment issues notwithstanding). I had a vague sense that different OSs had different types of floppy drives. I've also heard of hard vs soft sector drives, but I have no idea what the difference is. > I'd used CP/M at school but assumed all CP/M machines used the same disk > format. Wrong! *nod* It's my understanding that MS-DOS was one of the earlier OSs to standardize file systems used across disks for various computer manufacturers. There were still some physical differences though. > Fortunately I still find learning fun :) :-D -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 14 18:47:16 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:47:16 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I had a vague sense that different OSs had different types of floppy drives. > I've also heard of hard vs soft sector drives, but I have no idea what the > difference is. The floppy disk has an "index" hole and sensor. HARD sector disks have one hole per sector. SOFT sector disks have only one hole, and divide the track into sectors in software. >> I'd used CP/M at school but assumed all CP/M machines used the same disk >> format. Wrong! > *nod* > It's my understanding that MS-DOS was one of the earlier OSs to standardize > file systems used across disks for various computer manufacturers. There > were still some physical differences though. CP/M DID have a "standard format" - 8 inch Single-dided, single density. But, when manufacturers created double sided, and double density formats, or used hardware that was not compatible with the "standard format", they each came up with different ones. When 5.25" drives came out, each format was different. I estimate that there are 2500 floppy disk formats. I once got an opportunity to talk to Gary Kildall. I asked him about creating a standard format for 5.25" CP/M. He replied, "The standard format is 8 inch single sided single density." I thought that maybe my request wasn't clear, and suggested that it would be helpful if there were also a 5.25" standard. He reiterated, "The standard format is 8 inch single sided single density." Admittedly, a single standard was simpler than having a single sided and a dounle sided standard, with single density standard, and double density standard, for each size. (8 so far, and no clear end in sight.) The IBM PC domination of the market led to all of the imitators of IBM being standardized. (5.25" MFM single and double sided, 8 sectors per track and then 9 sectors per track. Then "High" density 5.25" (which was basically similar to an 8"!). Then "720K" 3.5". Then "1.4M" 3.5". Then "2.8M" 3.5".) But, besides the IBM compatible MS-DOS, MANY companies had reasons for other formats, even with MS-DOS, as well as CP/M. That even included a few companies who simply deliberatly wanted incompatability! Intertec (Superbrain) could not grasp any reason to transfer files between their disks and others, other than attempts to STEAL their "proprietary" software! (such as PIP.COM, FORMAT.COM, . . . ) They threatened to sue me if I included their formats in XenoCopy! That was the first time that I added an additional format during a tradeshow. But, MOST incompatabilities were for perceived advantages. Such as 800K GCR on Sirius/Victor-9000. Or "quad density" 80 track formats, such as 720K. Or 3.5", before IBM came up with one (PC-DOS 3.20). Companies that had already implemented 3.5", such as Gavilan, scrambled to change their formats to match IBM. 3 inch! 3.25 inch! (Dysan bet the company on the premise that software availability would be the deciding factor on which "shirt-pocket" diskette would win out. They created a surprisingly comprehensive publishing project. Where are they NOW?) NEC, however, made their "1.2M" format identical to their 8" format, and then also made their HD 3.5" identical. (360RPM drive, instead of the usual 300RPM) Although physically different, they all had the same layout. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 18:54:22 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 16:54:22 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> On 07/14/2018 04:04 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > It's my understanding that MS-DOS was one of the earlier OSs to > standardize file systems used across disks for various computer > manufacturers.? There were still some physical differences though. Well, yes and no. NEC really is the trailblazer here, not IBM (or for that matter Microsoft). The PC98 platform maintains the same format and datarate across 8", 5.25" and 3.5" floppies, although it many cases it can recognize and work with the IBM PC versions. One notable aspect is that the drives use all spin at the same 360 RPM speed. As far as CP/M, well there is the 8" SSSD (IBM 3740) format that DRI distributed the software on. Various OEMs tweaked their own interpretation of "CP/M Format, both in terms of drives and the organization and method of storing data on them. There are many more forgotten floppy formats than most realize--for example, the Drivetec/Kodak 5.25" 2.8MB and 6MB formats. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jul 14 19:00:32 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 20:00:32 -0400 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> congrats on kidney!! ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Saturday, July 14, 2018 Kurt K via cctalk wrote: Great news! A fast and smooth recovery. Sent from my iPhone > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 14 19:05:27 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:05:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > The floppy disk has an "index" hole and sensor. > HARD sector disks have one hole per sector. > SOFT sector disks have only one hole, and divide the track into sectors in > software. . . . and Apple and Commodore used soft-sectored, but do not use the index hole, so the track can begin at any rotational position. Stringy Floppy is best forgotten. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 19:27:22 2018 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 19:27:22 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: injoy the gift of extended life cheers may the pain and healing be quikly over so u can move back to life and the classics On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 7:00 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > congrats on kidney!! ed# > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 Kurt K via cctalk > wrote: > Great news! A fast and smooth recovery. > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the > hospital recovering. Will update when able. > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 19:29:53 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:29:53 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> On 07/14/2018 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Stringy Floppy is best forgotten. Along with TI wafertape and similar nonsense. From spectre at floodgap.com Sat Jul 14 19:55:29 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 17:55:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis via cctalk at "Jul 14, 18 05:29:53 pm" Message-ID: <201807150055.w6F0tTOQ19071078@floodgap.com> > > Stringy Floppy is best forgotten. > > Along with TI wafertape and similar nonsense. I've got one of those. Fun, when it works (there's always a moment of panic to see if it feels like working). -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Life is too short to remove USB safely. ------------------------------------ From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Jul 14 20:57:49 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 01:57:49 +0000 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> , <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> Message-ID: I understand that HxC has a hard sectored working on the Gotek for H89/H8. They are having issues with the timing restrictions for N* hard sectored. I've thought some about modifying a Gotek to use on my Nicolet but after some thought, realized it would be much easier to use something like an arduino directly on the I/O bus and bypass the complication of sector pulses at the same time as data was being transferred. It uses 32 hard sectored disk and writes continuous data over 16 sectors. It looks like it can be done but it is so much simpler to just send 20 bits as parallel data, as one word, rather then sending FM a bit at a time. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 14, 2018 5:29:53 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... On 07/14/2018 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Stringy Floppy is best forgotten. Along with TI wafertape and similar nonsense. From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jul 14 21:15:09 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:15:09 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Congrats!! My friend had a K/P about 24 years ago, but both are failing. The donor was older than she was. She has now been turned down at several medical centers but not before they ruined most of her kidney function with dye tests. They had the test results that disqualified her but never bothered to look at them until it was too late. I hope you have a speedy recovery. The technology is better now, but we weren't happy about thee drug protocols. Where did you have it done. How long were you on the list? BTW, you now have at least two birthdays to celebrate. Live Long, Be Happy, Paul On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 7:27 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > injoy the gift of extended life cheers may the pain and healing be quikly > over so u can move back to life and the classics > > > On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 7:00 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > wrote: > > > congrats on kidney!! ed# > > > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > > > On Saturday, July 14, 2018 Kurt K via cctalk > > wrote: > > Great news! A fast and smooth recovery. > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at > the > > hospital recovering. Will update when able. > > > > > > > > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Sat Jul 14 22:56:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:56:15 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/14/2018 05:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There are many more forgotten floppy formats than most realize--for > example, the Drivetec/Kodak 5.25" 2.8MB and 6MB formats. Wow. I had no idea that there was a 5?" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 14 23:22:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:22:11 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/14/2018 08:56 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I had no idea that there was a 5?" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. > > So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. So has any of the firmware writers for the GoTek implemented the Victor 9000 scheme (zoned+GCR) yet? Just curious. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 14 23:40:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 21:40:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Wow. > I had no idea that there was a 5??" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. > So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. Just by going to 10 sectors per track (as Kaypro, Otrona, etc. did), or switching to 5 1024 byte sectors, upped a 360K to 400k, or 720K to 800K. Talltree Systems (Jlaser, etc.) peddled JFORMAT, to implement 400K on PC. Or, if you pushed the head past the spec'd range, to get 41 or 42 tracks, . . . And, in the 3.5" form factor, it was fairly straightforward to tweak the parameters of the format to get 1.7M on a 1.4M disk. Note: to call it "1.44MB" requires creative redefining a MB to be 1024000 bytes (10^3 * 2^10). Ensoniq Mirage, and a few others put 5 1024 byte sectors PLUS a 512 byte sector on each track for 880K. There was a Barium-ferrite vertical recording 3.5" ("ED") with 2.8M capacity seen occasionally on IBM PS/2. ("2.88M" in marketing megabytes, or 4MB unformatted capacity (which is what NeXt chose to call it)) The "floptical" was 20MB. Admittedly a change in technology, but the floptical drive could also read/write 1.4M disks. It was usually connected SCSI, not SA400. LS120 drive also had the 1.4M capability, but the ZIP (100M, 250M?) did not. And, these were just the ones that almost caught on. At Comdex, you could see demos of a lot of amazing stuff that would never be seen again. There were a variety of 2.5", 2.9" drives. Some were smaller images of 720K, but there was at least one with a single spiral track. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sun Jul 15 00:35:41 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 23:35:41 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <651acefc-b54c-af48-09b6-09328798b57a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <226b4100-4a86-5181-114e-342de8764327@jetnet.ab.ca> On 7/14/2018 6:29 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/14/2018 05:05 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> Stringy Floppy is best forgotten. > > Along with TI wafertape and similar nonsense. I always liked the 8 track tape idea for a home brew system. Never got around to it however. Ben. From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 01:11:38 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 00:11:38 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 10:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So has any of the firmware writers for the GoTek implemented the Victor > 9000 scheme (zoned+GCR) yet? Just curious. > I have a Victor 9000, so I've been meaning to add support to fluxtoimd to be able to extract Victor 9000 data from flux transition images (DiscFerret and KyroFlux stream file) into ImageDisk images, which are then easily manipulated. Which reminds me, I'm way behind in merging some contributed bug fixes. Eric From harper at secureoutcomesinc.com Sat Jul 14 20:44:26 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomesinc.com (Jack Harper) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2018 19:44:26 -0600 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Excellent! Godspeed! Jack > > > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the > > hospital recovering. Will update when able. > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 03:13:20 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 09:13:20 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <003001d41c13$b1dc53f0$1594fbd0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 15 July 2018 04:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... > > On 07/14/2018 05:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > There are many more forgotten floppy formats than most realize--for > > example, the Drivetec/Kodak 5.25" 2.8MB and 6MB formats. > > Wow. > > I had no idea that there was a 5?" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. > > So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. > Not sure the IBM 2.44/2.88 format has been forgotten, but I would like to see a GoTek emulator for it.. > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Jul 15 08:55:46 2018 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 09:55:46 -0400 Subject: DECstation firmware archive? In-Reply-To: <3e177bcb-6559-eee2-527e-2ae79ccec21a@bitsavers.org> References: <3e177bcb-6559-eee2-527e-2ae79ccec21a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <5057d654-a411-dd1d-3451-9422511bca58@e-bbes.com> On 2018-07-13 20:26, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > Are the firmware eproms for the DECstation archived anywhere? Are you looking for anything specific, or just like to save them? I have most of the decstations ('133, '150, '200, '240 and '260), but all in containers, moving :( Cheers From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jul 15 10:28:29 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 10:28:29 -0500 Subject: Another DCJ11 oddity In-Reply-To: <20180710193842.F166618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180710193842.F166618C0A5@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5c055a0f-871a-3fc8-ccf4-20cab8cc642f@ieee.org> On 7/10/18 2:38 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Jerry Weiss > > > See http://simh.trailing-edge.com/semi/j11.html for information on the > > design of the J11. > > Thanks for that pointer; I don't think I've ever seen that - quite > interesting. > > Alas, it didn't have the cache info - but now that I've though about it > overnight, I'm pretty sure the reason for the two bits that do the same thing > is for -11/70 compatability. > > There is mention in the J-11 specification documents stating 11/70 and 11/44 features were the target. ???? The force miss CCR bits are present in both, to allow for segregation of the cache(s).? Thus the compatibility may span both.??? Interesting to note that if there were feature conflicts, these where solved in favor of the 11/44 except for special cases. You can find copies in http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/j11 Jerry From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 14:49:43 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 14:49:43 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files Message-ID: I have been recovering dozens of old Tektronix 4050 series tapes and found one with Fast Graphics software for the 4051. This software program jumped into 6800 assembly code and retrieved three bytes per vector from a tape file. Apparently this tape is a duplicate - and it appears that all the files bigger than 1KB have corrupt data. Apparently from the 4014 programmers guide - they had a set of demo picture files including a list with R2-D2. I have found Jos Dreesen's ftp tar file with some 4014 pictures - but I'm looking for an R2-D2 picture file that is on the tape I have but corrupt. I also discovered that Tektronix made a 4052/4054 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM pack which included the Fast Graphics program in ROM. I would love to find one of those ROM packs - hint/hint :) I did recover one of the shorter picture files of Snoopy - but since I don't have a 4051, I can't run the Fast Graphics program on my 4052 or 4054. One of my buddies threw a C program together to convert the data file into Tek 4050 PRINT statements. I've posted the SNOOPY basic program and screenshots of running it on vcfed in a new thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64726-Tektronix-4051-4052-4052A-4054-4054A-Program-Archives I'm also still looking for a 4051/4052 Display Board. Mike Haas posted pictures here in Oct 2016 of lots of Tektronix boards including a Display Board - but I don't have any direct contact info for him. Monty From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 15 15:58:44 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:58:44 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looking at that Snoopy picture brought back a couple memories. Do the files/programs necessary to create the Battlestar Galactica displays exist anywhere? I?m also in search of a copy of the TekWeek that has the article on Battlestar Galactica. As I recall they used $3 Million in Tektronix hardware on the sets. My dad should still have a copy squirreled away somewhere, the trick will be finding it. Cool! It?s finally available online! https://vintagetek.org/tektronix-in-movies-shows/ https://vintagetek.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/BattlestarGalactica_TW_060291978.pdf The other thing the Snoopy picture reminded me of was a, if I remember correctly, National Guard exhibit at the Washington County Fairgrounds in the early 70?s. They were making computer printouts of a Snoopy picture and, I think a calendar. I?m pretty sure I have it in my archives, the trick is finding it? Zane From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 16:45:50 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:45:50 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Zane, I have been searching for the Battlestar Galactica programs or data files since I got my 4052 and 4054 in 2000. We may have to recreate them from the couple of screenshots on the web :) The closeup screenshots on the TV shows may have been from 4010 series Tektronix monitors. I haven't seen any other info on the web from folks actually involved in helping during the taping of those shows. I created a program in 2000 in honor of Battlestar Galactica titled Vipers. That program is posted on the Tek 4051 Emulator github site. Here is a link to my post on vcfed - which has a screenshot from running it on the emulator - since I had not repaired my 4052 or 4054 until a month or so later. Here is a link showing running Vipers on my repaired 4054: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3Xk-B5ZgUFYUTBrK3VevoqMXs_PIGsx/view?usp=sharing The random number printout at the bottom of the screen - showed my 4054 had just been upgraded to a 4054A from an upgrade kit I bought in 2000 off EBAY but had not installed. :) Monty On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 3:58 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > Looking at that Snoopy picture brought back a couple memories. Do the > files/programs necessary to create the Battlestar Galactica displays exist > anywhere? > > I?m also in search of a copy of the TekWeek that has the article on > Battlestar Galactica. As I recall they used $3 Million in Tektronix > hardware on the sets. My dad should still have a copy squirreled away > somewhere, the trick will be finding it. > > Cool! It?s finally available online! > https://vintagetek.org/tektronix-in-movies-shows/ > https://vintagetek.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/BattlestarGalactica_TW_ > 060291978.pdf > > The other thing the Snoopy picture reminded me of was a, if I remember > correctly, National Guard exhibit at the Washington County Fairgrounds in > the early 70?s. They were making computer printouts of a Snoopy picture > and, I think a calendar. I?m pretty sure I have it in my archives, the > trick is finding it? > > Zane > > > > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 16:48:01 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 17:48:01 -0400 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: <1649b3d2485-c95-9333@webjas-vad204.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: I have no context around this but I wish you a speedy and complete recovery! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Sun, Jul 15, 2018 at 3:07 AM Jack Harper via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Excellent! > > Godspeed! > > Jack > > > > > > > > > > On Jul 14, 2018, at 14:14, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk < > > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > > > > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at > the > > > hospital recovering. Will update when able. > > > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Jack Harper, President > Secure Outcomes Inc > 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 > Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA > > 303.670.8375 > 303.670.3750 (fax) > > http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. > > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sun Jul 15 16:49:44 2018 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 21:49:44 +0000 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: My 4051 is down at the moment, it seems to be just a minor supply issue but I will get you the demo files. I really think the 4051 users are a really lose knit group out here. Since I bought mine a few years back at that auction site for divorce prices, I have met maybe half a dozen users,owners. I used to work at Tek, and I know the VintageTek guys, they have one. There is an ad-on, created by a Tek, called FASTGRAPHICS, that did two things: write to the display at a reduced current, so the storage tube acted like a normal scope, and the writes did not persist A dramatic speed up in the vector draw, that I think outruns the bit-slice 4052 I think Brad Sebrink (wrote the 4051 emulator for the PC) was looking to glue us together with a user's group. Nothing happened, because there is probably only 10 of us. Surprise me, prove me wrong. Hello Brad, you still want to create a group? Randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Zane Healy via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 1:58 PM To: Monty McGraw; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files Looking at that Snoopy picture brought back a couple memories. Do the files/programs necessary to create the Battlestar Galactica displays exist anywhere? I?m also in search of a copy of the TekWeek that has the article on Battlestar Galactica. As I recall they used $3 Million in Tektronix hardware on the sets. My dad should still have a copy squirreled away somewhere, the trick will be finding it. Cool! It?s finally available online! https://vintagetek.org/tektronix-in-movies-shows/ Tektronix In Movies and Shows - vintageTEK Museum vintagetek.org Tektronix equipment has been used in movies and shows. This is the earliest film we know of which features a 1952 Type 511A oscilloscope (based on the top louvers). https://vintagetek.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/BattlestarGalactica_TW_060291978.pdf The other thing the Snoopy picture reminded me of was a, if I remember correctly, National Guard exhibit at the Washington County Fairgrounds in the early 70?s. They were making computer printouts of a Snoopy picture and, I think a calendar. I?m pretty sure I have it in my archives, the trick is finding it? Zane From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 15 17:55:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 15:55:55 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <232eef23-4902-16b5-ebe2-10cf77bc599c@sydex.com> On 07/15/2018 01:58 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > The other thing the Snoopy picture reminded me of was a, if I remember correctly, National Guard exhibit at the Washington County Fairgrounds in the early 70?s. They were making computer printouts of a Snoopy picture and, I think a calendar. I?m pretty sure I have it in my archives, the trick is finding it? Those predate the Tek systems by quite a few years. 60s-early 70s. --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 15 18:20:38 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:20:38 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <747A44AD-CAC5-4DC9-91D3-5A493AC57EE5@avanthar.com> You missed the vcfed link. According to the TekWeek article, they used 4051?s. Though I doubt that?s what they used for the Vipers. That Viper photo from your 4054 is pretty darn cool. It makes me want to own a Tek terminal, something I?ve never said before. :-) My only exposure to the 4010 series was one that was hooked up to a Honeywell DPS-8 Mainframe that I worked on. In light of the demo?s you?re looking for, Westgate Theater was a mile or two from the main Tektronix campus. It holds the record for the longest continuous run of showing Star Wars. Starting in ?77 it ran for 532 days straight. The sign on the road out front started showing how many days they?d been showing it, before it hit 365 days. I suspect that helps explain the number of Star Wars related demo?s. :-) Zane > On Jul 15, 2018, at 2:45 PM, Monty McGraw wrote: > > Zane, > > I have been searching for the Battlestar Galactica programs or data files since I got my 4052 and 4054 in 2000. > > We may have to recreate them from the couple of screenshots on the web :) > > The closeup screenshots on the TV shows may have been from 4010 series Tektronix monitors. I haven't seen any other info on the web from folks actually involved in helping during the taping of those shows. > > I created a program in 2000 in honor of Battlestar Galactica titled Vipers. That program is posted on the Tek 4051 Emulator github site. > > Here is a link to my post on vcfed - which has a screenshot from running it on the emulator - since I had not repaired my 4052 or 4054 until a month or so later. > > Here is a link showing running Vipers on my repaired 4054: > https://drive.google.com/file/d/1G3Xk-B5ZgUFYUTBrK3VevoqMXs_PIGsx/view?usp=sharing > The random number printout at the bottom of the screen - showed my 4054 had just been upgraded to a 4054A from an upgrade kit I bought in 2000 off EBAY but had not installed. :) > > Monty From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 15 18:23:42 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 16:23:42 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: <232eef23-4902-16b5-ebe2-10cf77bc599c@sydex.com> References: <232eef23-4902-16b5-ebe2-10cf77bc599c@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 15, 2018, at 3:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/15/2018 01:58 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> The other thing the Snoopy picture reminded me of was a, if I remember correctly, National Guard exhibit at the Washington County Fairgrounds in the early 70?s. They were making computer printouts of a Snoopy picture and, I think a calendar. I?m pretty sure I have it in my archives, the trick is finding it? > > Those predate the Tek systems by quite a few years. 60s-early 70s. > > --Chuck > I?ve no doubt of that. As I recall, mind you this was over 40 years ago, there was no video display. To me, back then, computers didn?t have screens. :-) Zane From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Sun Jul 15 18:40:23 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 23:40:23 +0000 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 06:51 PM, Torfinn Ingolfsen via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Jul 13, 2018 at 11:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> On the other hand, if you want to use this with more general floppy >> images, you can install the HxC firmware which supports lots of formats. >> > Or FlashFloppy firmware: https://github.com/keirf/FlashFloppy > HTH Can this be used on the device labeled SMUFDDV4 at 1104. bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Jul 15 23:03:24 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 04:03:24 +0000 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <003001d41c13$b1dc53f0$1594fbd0$@gmail.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net>, <003001d41c13$b1dc53f0$1594fbd0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2.88 might be pushing the ability of a 72MHz processor. Also things like buffer size become an issue. For the Gotek, it is somewhat limited. One of the newer processors like the STM32F407, it might be possible. The Gotek uses an older generation processor that has limited resources. Also, the way the code is currently written, hard sectored is hard to do. Different encodings are not a big an issue as it uses transition timing and doesn't care how the data looks. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Dave Wade via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2018 1:13:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org; 'Grant Taylor' Subject: RE: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Grant Taylor via > cctalk > Sent: 15 July 2018 04:56 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... > > On 07/14/2018 05:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > There are many more forgotten floppy formats than most realize--for > > example, the Drivetec/Kodak 5.25" 2.8MB and 6MB formats. > > Wow. > > I had no idea that there was a 5?" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. > > So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. > Not sure the IBM 2.44/2.88 format has been forgotten, but I would like to see a GoTek emulator for it.. > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From cramcram at gmail.com Sun Jul 15 15:04:15 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2018 13:04:15 -0700 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> Message-ID: I'm not sure Continental Computer is still in business. www.conticomp.com doesn't respond anymore. Sigh, Marc On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:44 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Are there any HP resellers left now that have > their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't > have or never had? > > Sure! The problem is that most of them don't know that collectors still > want old stuff. Continental Computers in Calif has old DEC, SUN, and old > and new HP stuff. Pallets of it! They just don't advertise it. > > If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who > is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. > > Cindy > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Mon Jul 16 01:11:32 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 06:11:32 +0000 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com>, Message-ID: They still have am active ebay store, though. Continental Computers Wayne On Jul 15, 2018, at 9:51 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk > wrote: I'm not sure Continental Computer is still in business. www.conticomp.com doesn't respond anymore. Sigh, Marc On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:44 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Are there any HP resellers left now that have their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't have or never had? Sure! The problem is that most of them don't know that collectors still want old stuff. Continental Computers in Calif has old DEC, SUN, and old and new HP stuff. Pallets of it! They just don't advertise it. If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 08:52:56 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:52:56 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 at 05:55, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > Wow. > > I had no idea that there was a 5?" disk that held more than 1.2 MB. > > So much history that I'm sure is being lost to time. Me neither -- and I thought I knew a fair bit about floppies. I sometimes misstate things just in order to wind up Fred, mind you. :-) -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 09:38:52 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:38:52 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 15 Jul 2018 at 06:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > And, in the 3.5" form factor, it was fairly straightforward to tweak the > parameters of the format to get 1.7M on a 1.4M disk. I did that on occasion. So did some OS distributions, just to keep the number of boot diskettes down to just 3 and still be able to boot a bloated 1990s OS off floppy, plus enough drivers and storage subsystem to access a CD drive. I always thought the WinNT installer bootstrap process was a clever way to get around this. Boot into DOS, run WINNT.EXE and you're off. It was much easier to get a CD working under DOS than under, say, OS/2 (swearing at the painful memories) or Linux in the early kernel-1.0 days. I tried to explain this to an OS/2 evangelist friend of mine. He thought I was deranged. Still, I think it would have done OS/2 a lot of good. > Note: to call it "1.44MB" requires creative redefining a MB to be 1024000 > bytes (10^3 * 2^10). Once I learned this, I switched to calling them 1.4 MB floppies. This has an added bonus: as well as feeling smugly pedantic, I infrequently but regularly got to correct people trying to out-pedanticize me. > There was a Barium-ferrite vertical recording 3.5" ("ED") with 2.8M > capacity seen occasionally on IBM PS/2. ("2.88M" in marketing megabytes, > or 4MB unformatted capacity (which is what NeXt chose to call it)) I wish they'd caught on, if only as a bridge to... > The "floptical" was 20MB. Admittedly a change in technology, but the > floptical drive could also read/write 1.4M disks. > It was usually connected SCSI, not SA400. I mostly saw IDE (well, ATAPI, I suspect) ones. But they didn't stop at 20MB, of course... there were Sony HiFD and SuperDisks. 100 MB, 120, 150, 200, 240. If the floppy diskette industry had just kept it together, it could have kept the rewritable CD-ROM at bay for another decade or more. https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/49563.html > There were a variety of 2.5", 2.9" drives. Some were smaller images of > 720K, but there was at least one with a single spiral track. TBH I never saw much point in the (even) smaller ones. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 10:31:46 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 08:31:46 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/16/2018 07:38 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > I did that on occasion. So did some OS distributions, just to keep the > number of boot diskettes down to just 3 and still be able to boot a > bloated 1990s OS off floppy, plus enough drivers and storage subsystem > to access a CD drive. There were a couple of versions of web-browser with OS that fit on a 1.44M floppy. Don't forget the XDF and DMF format as well as the 2M format. The problem with 3.5" floppies for me was the declining quality of the media as manufacturers raced toward the bottom pricing point. IIRC that initially, a box of 10 3.5" DSHD floppies was about $50--at least that's what I paid for a box of Fujis back then. None from that original box have survived. Initially, 3.5" DSED cost about the same. On the other hand, I still have some of my 8" floppies from the 1970s that are quite readable today. --Chuck From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 16 10:52:02 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 10:52:02 -0500 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com>, Message-ID: <00db01d41d1c$f0550320$d0ff0960$@com> Just talked to Lidan at Continental Computers. They did not realize the website was down! You can call him directly at 310-906-3553, or email lidan at conticomp.com They killed the pallet of Sun pizza boxes, but the other machines they parted out and put the parts in stock. They do have some old DEC stuff; he will check for anything PDP related. They do not have any VT100 stuff left, nor any terminals below a VT320. He will also look for HP 1000 type boxes, and hdd and tape drives to match. Cindy From: Wayne S [mailto:wayne.sudol at hotmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:12 AM To: marc.howard at ieee.org; Marc Howard; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: Electronics Plus Subject: Re: 360 Technologies selloff They still have am active ebay store, though. Continental Computers Wayne On Jul 15, 2018, at 9:51 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk wrote: I'm not sure Continental Computer is still in business. www.conticomp.com doesn't respond anymore. Sigh, Marc On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:44 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: Are there any HP resellers left now that have their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't have or never had? Sure! The problem is that most of them don't know that collectors still want old stuff. Continental Computers in Calif has old DEC, SUN, and old and new HP stuff. Pallets of it! They just don't advertise it. If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Mon Jul 16 13:23:37 2018 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 13:23:37 -0500 Subject: Apple and Sun keyboards Message-ID: <007c01d41d32$1d4c3190$57e494b0$@com> AEK II are here https://www.elecshopper.com/input-devices/keyboards/wired-keyboards/desktop- keyboards/apple-extended-keyboard-1.html All Apple are here https://www.elecshopper.com/input-devices.html?manufacturer=48 Sun Type 4 are here https://www.elecshopper.com/input-devices.html?manufacturer=46 Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus 1613 Water Street Kerrville, TX 78028 830-370-3239 cell sales at elecplus.com AOL IM elcpls --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 16 17:17:17 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:17:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > The problem with 3.5" floppies for me was the declining quality of the > media as manufacturers raced toward the bottom pricing point. > IIRC that initially, a box of 10 3.5" DSHD floppies was about $50--at > least that's what I paid for a box of Fujis back then. None from that > original box have survived. Initially, 3.5" DSED cost about the same. > On the other hand, I still have some of my 8" floppies from the 1970s > that are quite readable today. In addition to the race to the bottom declining quality, the reliability may also have been slightly affected by change in linear density (physical length of track), 48tpi V 135tpi, reduced write current (with 300 Oersted V 600 V 750) Or maybe it's the need for fingerprint oils on the media! 3.5" keeps fingers away more than 5.25 or 8". On the Lisa "Twiggy" diskettes, they made special provision to get more thumb prints. If it were only still in the public consciousness, I can imagine CSI dialog, "They cleaned up the crime scene, but I know one place where we can get a thumbprint of the computer operator!" -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 16 17:27:27 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 16:27:27 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 4:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On the Lisa "Twiggy" diskettes, they made special provision to get more > thumb prints. > :-) I imagine you're aware of the actual reason for the two diametrically opposing jacket cutouts for the read/write heads. Eric From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 16 17:58:09 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 15:58:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> On the Lisa "Twiggy" diskettes, they made special provision to get more >> thumb prints. On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Eric Smith wrote: > :-) > I imagine you're aware of the actual reason for the two diametrically > opposing jacket cutouts for the read/write heads. I'm NOT sure. I speculate: 1) for users who put it in the wrong way. In which case, they should have had FOUR cutouts, AND a reversing motor and/or full track read and extraction to include upside down. (there are EIGHT ways that a 5.25 will fit into the drive). (cf. reasons for SINGLE button on Apple mouse) 2) To have two sets of heads. Either performance, or simply two single sided heads, to have felt pad instead of head to head pressure I am reminded of an episode of "Computer Bowl" (TV game show). Nobody on Bill Gates' team could answer WHERE the write protect notch is on an 8 inch diskette! From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 20:02:47 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:02:47 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> On 07/16/2018 03:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > I am reminded of an episode of "Computer Bowl" (TV game show).? Nobody > on Bill Gates' team could answer WHERE the write protect notch is on an > 8 inch diskette! Indeed, I couldn't even tell you. I *do* know where the write *enable* notch is, however. I can't ever recall hearing anyone ever calling the plastic ring on open-reel mag tape a "write-protect" ring. I've sometimes wondered how many 5.25" diskettes got inadvertently clobbered because of the reversal of the sense of the notch. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 16 20:05:02 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 21:05:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MSV11-J repairs Message-ID: <20180717010502.9DD3A18C0B8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hi, all, if anyone has any broken MSV11-J boards, I recently fixed one for a list member, and if anyone else has a broken one they'd like me to take a gander at, please let me know. (No charge!) I won't be able to fix _all_ problems (we don't have prints, or replacements for the custom gate arrays), but if it's just a failed DRAM chip, that I can isolate and repair. Noel From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 16 20:40:55 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 18:40:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> I am reminded of an episode of "Computer Bowl" (TV game show).? Nobody >> on Bill Gates' team could answer WHERE the write protect notch is on an >> 8 inch diskette! On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Indeed, I couldn't even tell you. I *do* know where the write *enable* > notch is, however. Their team couldn't have come up with that, either. And, they DID have an opportunity to give an adequately detailed answer to such things. On 8", notch is write protect; no notch is write enabled. on 5.25", notch is write enabled; no notch is write protected. I think that that justifies calling the 8" a "write protect notch", and calling the 5.25" a "write enable notch". Used 8" drives that I got sometimes had write-enable tabs in them that had fallen off. Once out of the enclosure, you did not need tiny fingers to work on 8" drives. I learned the hard way to distribute 5.25" software on no-notch disks, after somebody peeled off the write protect tab in order to infect one with "STONED", and then claimed that we had sent it that way. The serial numbers before and after were local, so I was able to confirm that it was ONLY that one disk. When I switched to no-notch disks, I jumpered an SA455 for writing to non-notch disks. I sure hope that I remember to jumper it back before I give that drive away. I never had enough volume to justify a dedicated duplicator.) > I can't ever recall hearing anyone ever calling the plastic ring on > open-reel mag tape a "write-protect" ring. > > I've sometimes wondered how many 5.25" diskettes got inadvertently > clobbered because of the reversal of the sense of the notch. A lot. I'm ambivalent about which way is better, but that is not a good kind of thing to change. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 16 21:28:19 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 16 Jul 2018 19:28:19 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> Message-ID: <832efa8a-c794-e371-5028-658424604943@sydex.com> On 07/16/2018 06:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On 8", notch is write protect; no notch is write enabled. > on 5.25", notch is write enabled; no notch is write protected. > I think that that justifies calling the 8" a "write protect notch", and > calling the 5.25" a "write enable notch". > Used 8" drives that I got sometimes had write-enable tabs in them that > had fallen off.? Once out of the enclosure, you did not need tiny > fingers to work on 8" drives. Well, it's a matter of half-full/half-empty. The 5.25" notch was always called write-protect, so go figure. I've got a few old 5.25" DSDD floppies with a very clover adaptation--they use a little aluminum slider in the jacket so that one doesn't have deal with finding sticky things for protection. The placement of the 5.25" notch, under whatever terminology--on the jacket *side* was very convenient. It was possible to poll the sensor to detect disk insertion/removal without the need for powering the spindle motor. I coded some stuff up in the late 70s for a "Put that back!" alarm when the disk contained files open for writing. I've got some 3M-branded 8" notched floppies that came with a strip of transparent *red* stick-ons. The result was that even when applied, the disk to some drives was still write-protected. Very frustrating the first time encountered. --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 17 01:33:20 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 06:33:20 +0000 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <832efa8a-c794-e371-5028-658424604943@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> , <832efa8a-c794-e371-5028-658424604943@sydex.com> Message-ID: I still don't know for sure which way to do 8 inch compared to 5.25. I usually try to write both ways but soon forget which is which. It won't do any good to tell me as I'll still forget. I just remember the 8 inch drives were different. Another good quiz question is where the index hole was on a 8 inch disk for the various flavors of 8 inch disk. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Chuck Guzis via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 7:28:19 PM To: Fred Cisin via cctalk Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... On 07/16/2018 06:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On 8", notch is write protect; no notch is write enabled. > on 5.25", notch is write enabled; no notch is write protected. > I think that that justifies calling the 8" a "write protect notch", and > calling the 5.25" a "write enable notch". > Used 8" drives that I got sometimes had write-enable tabs in them that > had fallen off. Once out of the enclosure, you did not need tiny > fingers to work on 8" drives. Well, it's a matter of half-full/half-empty. The 5.25" notch was always called write-protect, so go figure. I've got a few old 5.25" DSDD floppies with a very clover adaptation--they use a little aluminum slider in the jacket so that one doesn't have deal with finding sticky things for protection. The placement of the 5.25" notch, under whatever terminology--on the jacket *side* was very convenient. It was possible to poll the sensor to detect disk insertion/removal without the need for powering the spindle motor. I coded some stuff up in the late 70s for a "Put that back!" alarm when the disk contained files open for writing. I've got some 3M-branded 8" notched floppies that came with a strip of transparent *red* stick-ons. The result was that even when applied, the disk to some drives was still write-protected. Very frustrating the first time encountered. --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 05:04:58 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:04:58 +0200 Subject: Apple and Sun keyboards In-Reply-To: <007c01d41d32$1d4c3190$57e494b0$@com> References: <007c01d41d32$1d4c3190$57e494b0$@com> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 20:23, Electronics Plus via cctalk wrote: > > AEK II are here > https://www.elecshopper.com/input-devices/keyboards/wired-keyboards/desktop- > keyboards/apple-extended-keyboard-1.html If any list members want an Apple Extended 1 in German QWERTZ layout, I have one that is cleaner than those... and I can supply it with an ADB-USB convertor, as well. Drop me a line. > AOL IM elcpls I think that doesn't work any more. AFAIK AIM has been shut down -- I lost my 22y old ID, too. Yahoo and MSN IM have both gone too. ICQ is about the oldest and it's still going, but nobody seems to use it any more. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 05:09:50 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:09:50 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <657b476e-94cd-0364-677e-72566262a405@sydex.com> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 at 17:31, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > There were a couple of versions of web-browser with OS that fit on a > 1.44M floppy. I know about the famous QNX Demo Disk. It's the only one I knew of, though. http://toastytech.com/guis/qnxdemo.html Although I guess I could, just for laughs, try to do a modern DR-DOS + web browser demo disk... I have some already... https://liam-on-linux.livejournal.com/58013.html -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 05:14:10 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:14:10 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <81da4197-bede-afa5-6a1c-9a0c9f4f3f51@sydex.com> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 00:17, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Or maybe it's the need for fingerprint oils on the media! 3.5" keeps > fingers away more than 5.25 or 8". On the Lisa "Twiggy" diskettes, they > made special provision to get more thumb prints. *Chuckle* Even if I never saw them, IKWYM. I am slowly staggering towards having my ZX Spectrum machines up and running again -- and I hope my QL, too. They both have 5?" drives. When I kitted out my Spectrum with an MGT DISCiPLE and a single DS/DD 80t drive, circa 1986 or so, 5?" drives were ~? the price of 3?" ones, and the media were much less -- maybe 1/10th of the price. Due to acute media shortage, if my old disks can still be read, now I'm looking at moving over to 3?" drives and media. I do have a ?SD card interface too, but it doesn't feel the same... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 05:41:23 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 12:41:23 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <3e03b901-b882-7edf-887c-879af717d784@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 03:41, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On 8", notch is write protect; no notch is write enabled. > on 5.25", notch is write enabled; no notch is write protected. > I think that that justifies calling the 8" a "write protect notch", and > calling the 5.25" a "write enable notch". I was not aware of that. Thank you, once again, ClassicCmp, for making me feel relatively young. I think I have seen live working systems with 8" floppies about twice in my entire working life, both in the late 1980s. I have never used a system with them, not even once. I'm 50 and my first memory of any kind is the first moon landing. Last night, in a pub quiz, which to the organizers' amazement we won -- we were the "old people" team (3 ? ~50, 1 ? ~35), when one of the questions was about "the early days of the old-time internet, if you're old and you've been online forever." It was about Myspace. >_< -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 17 07:35:59 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 08:35:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... Message-ID: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Liam Proven > one of the questions was about "the early days of the old-time > internet, if you're old and you've been online forever." > It was about Myspace. Yikes. Send them this: http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/sflovers/ Noel From lproven at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 08:21:43 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 15:21:43 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 14:36, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > Yikes. > > Send them this: > > http://www.chiappa.net/~jnc/tech/sflovers/ *Chuckle* I doubt they'd understand. This quiz was in the basement bar of a youth hostel. I would guesstimate that these kids are all young enough that they don't remember the 20th century. They're highly media-literate -- my team only won by 1 point, although if they'd listened to me it would have been 3 -- but the quizmaster struggled with the task of reading the team names out. Ours was called "Intravenous de Milo". This had to be explained to him. He confessed embarrassment that he didn't know the reference -- he hadn't heard of the sculpture -- nor did he know the word "intravenous". Most team names were puns. He struggled with every one, simply to pronounce it. To mark another team's paper, you need to be able to add up and count to between 10 and 12. Several times we've had to ask for a recount because that much mental arithmetic is hard for them. The former quiz mistress, who's ~32, totally them wrongly about 3 weeks ago and gave the prize to someone else who'd got 3 less than us. These are abstract skills that are not handled well by millennial kids. It scares the pants off me, because in a decade, some of these people will be running companies. Some will employ thousands. These are smart, monied, well-travelled kids, travelling the world alone for fun. They're probably among the brighter of their generation. But then, when I look at school examination papers from 50 or 100 years before I was at school, *I'm* terrified. I feel like I am retarded, compared to schoolchildren of the turn of the 20th century who were expected by 11 to be fluent in 3-4 foreign languages, to play several musical instruments, to be able to confidently quote literature in multiple languages, and so on. My generation were considerably dumber than that. Now, my generation is running things -- I'm broadly of an age with the government members of most of the English-speaking world. And they are, very evidently, making a total mess of it. So I am perversely reassured that it's not just me. Nope, my generation were dumb too. Yes, the next generation seem very stupid to me, but they know stuff I don't know, have skills I don't have. I marvel that they lack skills that seem basic to me, like the "three Rs", but they don't see them as particularly important. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 11:50:01 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:50:01 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 4:58 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On the Lisa "Twiggy" diskettes, they made special provision to get more >>> thumb prints. >>> >> > On Mon, 16 Jul 2018, Eric Smith wrote: > >> I imagine you're aware of the actual reason for the two diametrically >> opposing jacket cutouts for the read/write heads. >> > > I'm NOT sure. I speculate: > 2) To have two sets of heads. Either performance, or simply two single > sided heads, to have felt pad instead of head to head pressure > The latter, two single single-sided heads, each opposed by a pressure pad. Aside from the provision for extra fingerprints, a problem with this scheme was that they varied the rotation rate depending on the position of the head in use. Unfortunately since there was only a single actuator, when the top head was near the inside, the bottom was near the outside, and vice versa. Except for the middle few tracks, it was never fast to switch from one head to the other without seeking. The logical disk organization was all of side zero followed by all of side one, rather than by cylinder. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 12:20:52 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 10:20:52 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4ca780ff-9e01-3e99-fbf9-c7ad6d2b63be@sydex.com> <7369a490-272a-3a3c-23b9-12dc5bbe3199@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <74570d67-061a-f721-170a-77ca8c5f5c58@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <4bbf41c4-e588-d259-48b9-8a956ad8991a@sydex.com> <828a547f-c7a8-c706-1566-79663fe5304d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/17/2018 09:50 AM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > The latter, two single single-sided heads, each opposed by a pressure pad. > > Aside from the provision for extra fingerprints, a problem with this scheme > was that they varied the rotation rate depending on the position of the > head in use. Unfortunately since there was only a single actuator, when the > top head was near the inside, the bottom was near the outside, and vice > versa. Except for the middle few tracks, it was never fast to switch from > one head to the other without seeking. The logical disk organization was > all of side zero followed by all of side one, rather than by cylinder. It was probably one of the more insane things that Apple did. 871K using variable speed spindle motors (very irritating if you were a user) and GCR. Just across the street on Bubb Road, we were getting 960K using GCR on stock Micropolis drives in 1978. No fancy zoned recording schemes or non-standard drives. The Apple Mentality: NIH sometimes backfires badly. --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 17 12:39:26 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:39:26 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 07/17/2018 07:21 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > ?but they don't see them as particularly important. Sadly, many of my generation and younger, don't understand that the perception of importance often doesn't match the actual importance. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From abuse at cabal.org.uk Tue Jul 17 12:43:09 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:43:09 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk> On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 03:21:43PM +0200, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: [...] > But then, when I look at school examination papers from 50 or 100 years > before I was at school, *I'm* terrified. I feel like I am retarded, compared > to schoolchildren of the turn of the 20th century who were expected by 11 to > be fluent in 3-4 foreign languages, to play several musical instruments, to > be able to confidently quote literature in multiple languages, and so on. That's an extraordinary claim that sets off my bullshit detector. Snopes offers this commentary: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1895-exam/ 50-100 years before you were at school would be roughly 1870-1920, which is right at the start of both state-provided schools and compulsory education. The UK only raised the school leaving age to 11 in 1893. Truancy was rife, because parents still expected their children to work instead and contribute to the household. The average child was very poorly educated if at all. Children actually taking examinations at age 11 are already on the academic track for those who are both clever and rich enough to continue their education further. It may even be the entrance exam for a posh public school. Your average working-class oik is never going to get anywhere near that exam paper. For fun, have a crack at some of the recent exam papers given to 13 year olds hoping for a scholarship: https://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 17 12:49:42 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:49:42 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/13/2018 03:12 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any experience with the GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 floppy drive > emulator that reads ""images from a USB flash drive? In case anyone is interested. I have received my GoTEK and my initial impression is something between neutral and positive. I'm still running the stock firmware on it but plan to transition to FlashFloppy (?) after my new soldering iron arrives. (My last one didn't make a cross country move.) I don't know if the GoTEK is itself slow or if it's a result of what the computer was doing with it. ? My only experience was trying to have a Compaq System Utility Partition back itself up to the GoTEK. The first ""disk worked without a problem. The backup routine fails complaining about a file after formatting the second disk. I suspect this may be more source than the destination. I'm sure there is a healthy dose of my ignorance of using the GoTEK. There was zero documentation that came with it. Online searches turn up a myriad of versions for the different models and it's all combining into a ? cesspool seems like the proper word. I think I'm going to like the GoTEK as I get more experience with it. I am planing on trading out the firmware and moding it to add an OLED display so I'll have more information on what it's doing. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 13:39:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 11:39:58 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <132603c4-1987-9506-5b5d-513f7c6a13ee@sydex.com> On 07/17/2018 10:49 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > I'm sure there is a healthy dose of my ignorance of using the GoTEK. > There was zero documentation that came with it.? Online searches turn up > a myriad of versions for the different models and it's all combining > into a ? cesspool seems like the proper word. > > I think I'm going to like the GoTEK as I get more experience with it.? I > am planing on trading out the firmware and moding it to add an OLED > display so I'll have more information on what it's doing. Why not put a scope on the INDEX pin output and see if it's nice and regular or it skips revs when the firmware has to ge fetch a track's worth of data? Just a suggestion... --Chuck From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 17 14:42:21 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:42:21 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <132603c4-1987-9506-5b5d-513f7c6a13ee@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <132603c4-1987-9506-5b5d-513f7c6a13ee@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0a48234e-4300-53ab-0444-1e9abed2870a@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/17/2018 12:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Why not put a scope on the INDEX pin output and see if it's nice and > regular or it skips revs when the firmware has to ge fetch a track's > worth of data? I don't currently have a scope. I also don't have the knowledge to do what you suggest. I think I'll test other aspects of the GoTEK, particularly ones that I have more trust in, before questioning the GoTEK. I'm currently using the GoTEK on a new to me computer that I'm still figuring out and addressing other hardware problems on. > Just a suggestion... A valid one. Just one that I'm not able to execute. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From jfoust at threedee.com Tue Jul 17 14:33:45 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:33:45 -0500 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> At 03:53 PM 7/14/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? > >Yes. >And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. >http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC I remember a detokenizer for RSTS BASIC-PLUS that's not on that list. I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you could get back very reasonable code." And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 - John From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 15:04:10 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 21:04:10 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On 17 Jul 2018, at 18:49, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > > I don't know if the GoTEK is itself slow or if it's a result of what the computer was doing with it. ? My only experience was trying to have a Compaq System Utility Partition back itself up to the GoTEK. The first ""disk worked without a problem. The backup routine fails complaining about a file after formatting the second disk. I suspect this may be more source than the destination. Just a question, you?re not expecting the Gotek to whizz files onto the Compaq are you? It may be something modern emulating a floppy drive but it also has to emulate the floppy drive rotational speed so it should be the same speed as a real drive. One thing that sometimes makes it seem slow to me is that I don?t have the little piezo speaker for mine so you?re getting no audible feedback, and with no OLED either you have no idea about which tracks its reading, etc. Bit like watching a kettle boil :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Jul 17 15:21:13 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:21:13 -0700 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> I should also mention that for the IBM S/23, once the BASIC program is entered, the original source is discarded and only the tokenized code remains (comments are retained as-is). The LIST command runs a de-tokenizer and reconstructs the original source (well close to it anyway). TTFN - Guy > On Jul 17, 2018, at 12:33 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > > At 03:53 PM 7/14/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>> isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? >> >> Yes. >> And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. >> http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC > > I remember a detokenizer for RSTS BASIC-PLUS that's not on that list. > > I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. > > Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS > decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. > The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence > between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you > could get back very reasonable code." > > And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: > > https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 > > - John > From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 17 15:49:18 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:49:18 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/17/2018 02:04 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Just a question, you?re not expecting the Gotek to whizz files onto the > Compaq are you? No, not as such. > It may be something modern emulating a floppy drive but it also has > to emulate the floppy drive rotational speed so it should be the same > speed as a real drive. I am guessing that there is some false hope ~> expectation on my part that things might be a little bit faster than they were. That being said, there is every chance that this process was doing extra work and likely verifying the format (I think format has a flag to test a floppy as it's formatted), thus making it take longer. I conceptually get that the GoTEK can't go any faster than the Floppy's IDE (I thought floppy was a derivative of IDE.) bus can carry the data. I was hoping to avoid some timings of the physical aspects of spinning the disk and seeking. I think I've been messing with virtualization too much that can simply do things a LOT faster because more of the computer is emulated. (This does come with it's own problems too.) > One thing that sometimes makes it seem slow to me is that I don?t > have the little piezo speaker for mine so you?re getting no audible > feedback, and with no OLED either you have no idea about which tracks > its reading, etc. Fortunately for me, my GoTEK does have an activity LED. Apparently some models don't even have that. It will be interesting to see the track count on the OLED once I install it. As it is, I go from starting to assumed finish without any progress indicator. > Bit like watching a kettle boil :) Or watching paint dry. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Jul 17 15:50:18 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 13:50:18 -0700 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: The HP9830 (1972) with it's ROM'ed BASIC works this way. LIST produces a 'cleaned up' version of the source code. On 2018-Jul-17, at 1:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: > I should also mention that for the IBM S/23, once the BASIC program is entered, the original > source is discarded and only the tokenized code remains (comments are retained as-is). The > LIST command runs a de-tokenizer and reconstructs the original source (well close to it anyway). > > TTFN - Guy > >> On Jul 17, 2018, at 12:33 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> >> At 03:53 PM 7/14/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>> isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? >>> >>> Yes. >>> And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. >>> http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC >> >> I remember a detokenizer for RSTS BASIC-PLUS that's not on that list. >> >> I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. >> >> Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS >> decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. >> The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence >> between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you >> could get back very reasonable code." >> >> And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: >> >> https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 >> >> - John >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 16:39:39 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 14:39:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Why GoTEK SFR1M44-U100 is slow... In-Reply-To: <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> Just a question, you?re not expecting the Gotek to whizz files onto the >> Compaq are you? On Tue, 17 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > No, not as such. >> It may be something modern emulating a floppy drive but it also has to >> emulate the floppy drive rotational speed so it should be the same speed as >> a real drive. > I am guessing that there is some false hope ~> expectation on my part that > things might be a little bit faster than they were. > That being said, there is every chance that this process was doing extra work > and likely verifying the format (I think format has a flag to test a floppy > as it's formatted), thus making it take longer. The MS-DOS VERIFY command meant that every time that a sector was written, the computer would then check the CRC, and confirm that it was a valid sector. Contrary to popular ASSUMPTION, it absolutely did NOT compare the content of the sector with what it should be. (re-read sector and compare? Nope, just confirm that it is readable) A drive with dead write electronics can "write" and VERIFY, simply because the unaltered previous content does VERIFY as valid sectors). Some people would turn VERIFY OFF, and disable PARITY, in a performance attempt because they assumed that it wasn't actually doing anything. Q: Do you want to know whether there are errors? A FORMAT VERIFY that formats all tracks, and THEN verifies them is slower, but more reliable than format and verify of each track, since it is a recheck that each track is written on the correct cylinder. A Format and verify before changing track, on a drive with broken stepper, could format and verify every track all on the same cylinder. > I conceptually get that the GoTEK can't go any faster than the Floppy's IDE > (I thought floppy was a derivative of IDE.) bus can carry the data. I was > hoping to avoid some timings of the physical aspects of spinning the disk and > seeking. Floppy interface (SA800/SA400 and derivatives) was long before the IDE ("Integrated Device Electronics") hard disk interface, so the derivation is mostly the other direction. The disk spins at 360 (8", 1.2M, NEC) or 300 (5.25", 3.5") RPM. (180RPM for Weltec 1.2M kludge to get 1.2M on XT; 600RPM for one of the Sony 3.5") The data transfer rate was 125,000 bits per second (5.25" SD) 250,000 bits per second (8" SD, 5.25" DD, 3.5" DD, Weltec 1.2M) 300,000 bits per second (360K disk in 1.2M drive) 500,000 bits per second (8" DD, 1.2M, 3.5" HD) 1,000,000 bits per second (2.8M) Each controller only supported some of those. 5150 was 250,000. 5170 (AT) was 250,000, 300,000, 500,000. Spinning the disk at 300RPM, and transferring at 250,000 bps controlled the positioning of the bits on the track. Spinning faster, even if only virtual, can't change that data transfer rate. Well ALMOST not. Weltec had a slower than normal drive to permit 1.2M on slower controllers, and Sony had a 3.5" drive that sun at 600RPM requiring controller with faster data transfer rate). To over-simplify, you can think of the rotational speed as being solely to match the controller data transfer rate; and therefore, not helped by this. So, those preset data transfer rates in the controller are the sole determining factor of the speed that you will get. On the other hand, SEEK could be improved. You could probably get some minor speed improvement by tampering with the seek time parameters! The computer waits after a "STEP" command to give the drive time to step and settle. When IBM used the Qumetrak 142 drives (PCJr), they had to release a new version of PD-DOS (2.10) to slow down that time for the SLOW-ASS drives. Check out INT 1Eh (pointer to where those vaariables are stored) So, other than the possibility of a faster virtual SEEK/STEP time, this will be exactly the same speed as a real floppy. It also might be possible to create new firmware AND drivers on PC, that would fake being at 600RPM, to let the FDC use its 500,000 bps data transfer rate. Or use the 1,000,000 bps rate on 2.8M capable controllers. > I think I've been messing with virtualization too much that can simply do > things a LOT faster because more of the computer is emulated. (This does > come with it's own problems too.) yep. that would also does away with the FDC data transfer rate bottleneck. > It will be interesting to see the track count on the OLED once I install it. That will be a sweet add-on >> Bit like watching a kettle boil :) > Or watching paint dry. Or grass growing. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 18:11:48 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:11:48 -0600 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Jul 17, 2018 at 2:49 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I conceptually get that the GoTEK can't go any faster than the Floppy's > IDE (I thought floppy was a derivative of IDE.) bus can carry the data. IDE came much later and isn't very similar to the floppy interface. Here's more history of it than you probably wanted: IBM invented the 8-inch floppy drive and had a proprietary interface to it (discussed here recently). Memorex made plug-compatible drives, but the IBM interface did not become an industry standard. With IBM's earliest floppy drives (23FD "Minnow"), even the medium, rotation rate, data encoding, and index hole locations weren't compatible with what became the industry standard. Minnow was shipped to customers as part of IBM mainframes and control units as a read-only device to load microcode, though obviously internally IBM had equipment to write the disks. IBM redesigned it as the 33FD "Igar", and that did set an industry standard for the media format, but still did not standardize the electrical interface. The Shugart SA-900/901 drive standardized a 50-pin interface for eight-inch floppy drives. The Shugart SA-4000 series 14-inch winchester hard disk drives used a similar but not identical 50-pin interface. The SA-1000 series 8-inch winchester hard drives moved the data to a "radial" interface using separate connectors for each drive, while keeping the 50-pin interface for control and status. The SA-4000 and SA-1000 series established defacto standards for early winchester drives. Shugart invented the 5.25-inch floppy drive. The Shugart SA-400 drive standardized a 34-pin interface for 5.25-inch floppy drives, which was for the most part a subset of the 50-pin interface, with the pins rearranged. Most 5.25-inch floppy drives provided spindle motor on/off control over the interface but had no head load solenoid, where previously most 8-inch floppy drives gave the interface control over the head load solenoid but had no spindle motor control. (Many of the later 8-inch half-height floppy drives followed this trend.) The Shugart Technology (a different company, later renamed Seagate) ST-506 drive standardized a 34-pin interface for 5.25-inch winchester hard drives, which was in most regards a subset of the SA-1000 interface, with a different pinout, and a different differential signalling standard (RS-422) on the radial data connector. When 3.5-inch floppy drives and hard drives were introduced, most used the same 34-pin interfaces as their 5.25-inch counterparts. All of the drives and interfaces previously described are bit serial, with discrete control lines for all drive functions. The interfaces have no parallel bus structures for either data or control. There were third-party hard disk systems for the IBM PC, but the first official IBM hard disks for PCs were for the PC/XT and PC/AT. The PC/AT controller in particular was based on a Western Digital design.The IDE hard disk interface was essentially the host interface of the Western Digital hard disk controller. As such, it uses a parallel data bus for both data and commands. There are no discrete drive control signals. > I was hoping to avoid some timings of the physical aspects of spinning the > disk and seeking. > Unfortunately not. A floppy drive doesn't have any way to know what sector the host wants, so a drive emulator has to simulate the rotation process. Most floppy interfaces, including those used on PCs, don't have buffered seek, so there's no easy way for the emulator to short-circuit the step process either, though you could possibly tell the computer to configure the floppy disk controller chip for a faster seek rate. From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 19:03:39 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 17:03:39 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2018, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > more history of it than you probably wanted: I think that it is worth adding in the amusing anecdote of the name "Seagate". Alan Shugart as "Shugart Associates" changed 8" drives to what became the industry standard form. And then created the SA400 5.25" drive. There is some dispute over the creation of 5.25". One story goes that Adkisson (of Shugart Associates) was talking with Wang, who wanted a smaller drive and diskette. When asked what size did they want, Wang picked up the bar napkin. That bar napkin became the model for the 5.25" diskette. Massaro denies the story. Shugart sold "Shugart Associates" to Xerox. Later, Shugart formed "Shugart Technology", to develop small hard drives. Xerox lawyers objected to the name, and Shugart had to change it to "Seagate Technology". Which goes to show you, do not name your company after yourself, or selling the company could cost you your name. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Jul 17 20:43:20 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 18:43:20 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/17/2018 04:11 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > When 3.5-inch floppy drives and hard drives were introduced, most used the > same 34-pin interfaces as their 5.25-inch counterparts. Can't say much about 3.5" hard drives (the only really early ones I've seen are standard ST505-type 2-cable interface). But initially, the 3.5' floppies used a 26-pin interface (13 signal lines): http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sony/floppy/Sony_Micro_Floppy_Disk_Drive_Model_0A-D30V_OEM_Manual_Mar82.pdf And of course, the drives spun at 600 RPM, which was really nice if you were used to 8" or 5.25" drives. The Drivetek 5.25" high-capacity drives would also spin at 600 RPM when a conventional floppy was used--again, a nice feature. FWIW, Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 17 21:22:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 19:22:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: > On 07/17/2018 04:11 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: >> When 3.5-inch floppy drives and hard drives were introduced, most used the >> same 34-pin interfaces as their 5.25-inch counterparts. On Tue, 17 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Can't say much about 3.5" hard drives (the only really early ones I've > seen are standard ST505-type 2-cable interface). I interpreted Eric's comment as meaning that the 3.5" hard drives used same interface as the 5.25. inch hard drives (34 pin and 20 pin), and the 3.5" floppy would be same as 5.25" floppy 34 pin. > But initially, the 3.5' floppies used a 26-pin interface (13 signal lines): > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/sony/floppy/Sony_Micro_Floppy_Disk_Drive_Model_0A-D30V_OEM_Manual_Mar82.pdf > And of course, the drives spun at 600 RPM, which was really nice if you > were used to 8" or 5.25" drives. The Drivetek 5.25" high-capacity > drives would also spin at 600 RPM when a conventional floppy was > used--again, a nice feature. Could the Gotek firmware, and some drivers on PC's with "HD" or "ED" controllers, be kludged together to get faster data transfers? ALthough the early 3.5" were 600 RPM and 26 pin, they soon changed over to 34 pin. (some MS-DOS 2.11 laptops) I'm assuming to make them a drop-in replacement for 5.25". But, yes, when first introduced, they were not yet 34 pin. And, of course there were a few 5.25" drives that were not the standard 34 pin interface, such as Apple. (SA390 (SA400 without the "logic" board")) My first "1.2M" 5.25" drive (Mitsubishi EARLY 4854?) had a 50 pin connector! That made me think that they were targetting 8" replacement, rather than 5.25" storage increase. Unsubstantiated story from a Microsoft person was that during the initial stages of AT-BIOS and DOS 3.00 programming, they thought that there was an 8" machine coming. 3" and 3.25" were also almost completely compatible with the "standard" 34 pin interface. Although I remember one drive that had 5V and 12V swapped in its 4 pin power connector! And my 8" drives did not standardize power connector and requirements. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Jul 17 22:59:02 2018 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2018 20:59:02 -0700 Subject: New Items Listed in Sellam's VWoCW (Many DEC Handbooks) Message-ID: Hi Folks. Here are the new items for July 17, 2018: IBM PS/2 Model P70 386 Morrow Designs Micro Decision 1 ACCTON EtherCombo-32 Ethernet Card Inmac SP-16 Serial-To-Parallel Converter Apricorn EZ-GIG Hard Drive Update Kit HP Series 80 Data Communications Pac HP Series 80 BASIC Training Pac HippoConcept The following are all DEC manuals and handbooks: Autoconf manual A Practical Guide to Word Processing and Office Management Systems Communications Handbook dBase III v1.0 DECmate II Handbook DECSYSTEM-20 Technical Summary Digital's Office Solutions: ALL-IN-1 Handbook Distributed Systems Handbook Emulex Controller Handbook: Communications and Periperhals Introduction to BASIC Introduction to Local Area Networks IDEAS Education Software Referral Catalog IDEAS: Index and Description of Educational Application Software: 4th edition Guide to Small Business Computing Guide to Personal Computing Introduction to Computer-Based Education Large Systems Software Referrral Catalog: 4th Edition Letterprinter 100 Installation Guide Letterprinter 100 Operator Guide Letterprinter 100 Programmer Reference Manual Logistics Management: Concepts and Techniques Maintenance Aids Handbook MBASIC VT180 BASIC-80 Reference Manual MBASIC VT180 Getting Started with MBASIC VT180 Microcomputers and Memories Microsoft Multiplan Manual Network Management I Student Guide Networking: The Competitive Edge Office Information Systems Guidebook Overview of DIGITAL Networking Products PDP-11 Architecture Handbook PDP-11 Microcomputer Interfaces Handbook PDP-11/04/34/34A Maintenance Card Peripherals Handbook Professional Handbook Rainbow Handbook RSTS/E PDP-11 Operating System RSX-11 Handbook Spares Kit Handbook Terminals & Printers Handbook The DECmate Family Handbook The Guide to Team Computing ULTRIX Software Guidebook: A Reference to UNIX Software ULTRIX-32 Reference: Volume 1 ULTRIX-32 Software Development: Volume 2 UNIX Software Guidebook VAX Architecture Handbook VAX Hardware Handbook VAX Software Handbook VAX Software Tools: Languages VAXcluster Technical Summary VAX/VMS Software: Information Management Handbook VAX/VMS Software: VMS System Software Handbook VAX/VMS Technical Summary Version 4 VEDIT User's Manual The index of links to the specific items above is, as always, here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...72371&range=A1 For the month of July 2018 I'm offering 10% off for new buyers, and 15% off for past buyers. Thanks! Sellam From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:37:30 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:37:30 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <48B7A183-F8FE-4382-94D8-81C5A80923FD@gmail.com> > On 18 Jul 2018, at 03:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Could the Gotek firmware, and some drivers on PC's with "HD" or "ED" controllers, be kludged together to get faster data transfers? Good question. I?ll ask since that could be implemented with a line in the config file. Keir is constantly updating the firmware to add extra features so it might be there already. > 3" and 3.25" were also almost completely compatible with the "standard" 34 pin interface. Although I remember one drive that had 5V and 12V swapped in its 4 pin power connector! And my 8" drives did not standardize power connector and requirements. Early Amigas had +5 and +12 swapped . I didn?t realise this and the first time I hooked up a Gotek to my A500 it cooked the USB stick but thankfully didn?t kill the logic on the board. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From josephoswald at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 02:15:56 2018 From: josephoswald at gmail.com (Joseph Oswald) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 15:15:56 +0800 Subject: Info, spice model parameters for DEC pulse transformers? Message-ID: I'm trying to model the PDP-1 DEC system models, first with SPICE (ngspice on Linux), then with VHDL. I'm struggling to understand the properties of various transformers in the system module circuits, most importantly (at least, the ones I see in schematics I want to model) 2 winding T2003 (used in the 1304 delay, 1410 pulse generator, 1540 sense amp, 1607 pulse amplifier) 2 winding T2026 (used in the 1410) 4 winding T2029 (used in the 1201 flip-flop) 3 winding T2033 (used in 1204 flip-flop) 2 winding T2048 (used in the 1607 pulse amplifier, but the maintenance manual suggests this might be substituted with a T2010?) The maintenance manual also suggests uses for T2006, T2012, T2017, T2018, T2019, T2020, T2021, T2023, T2024 are used in modules I don't have schematics for yet. Is there any source for information about these? Basic specs? I don't even know what the turns ratios are for these parts, much less plausible inductances, so my spice models misbehave pretty badly. I've also posted a question on Reddit about this https://www.reddit.com/r/AskElectronics/comments/8zsyuq/reverse_engineering_and_simulating_transformers/ --Joe From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 06:19:24 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:19:24 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 at 01:11, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > Unfortunately not. A floppy drive doesn't have any way to know what sector > the host wants, so a drive emulator has to simulate the rotation process. On that note... Does anyone know how NV-memory-to-floppy emulators worked? E.g. these Smartmedia to floppy adaptors: https://www.ebay.com/p/Olympus-Floppy-Disk-Adapter-for-Smart-Media-Flash-Path-Mafp-1u/1307808939 or https://www.amazon.com/SmartDisk-FlashPath-Floppy-Adapter-SmartMedia/dp/B00005QXW7 -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 06:33:02 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:33:02 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk> References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 19:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > That's an extraordinary claim that sets off my bullshit detector. Snopes offers > this commentary: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1895-exam/ > > 50-100 years before you were at school would be roughly 1870-1920, which is > right at the start of both state-provided schools and compulsory education. The > UK only raised the school leaving age to 11 in 1893. Truancy was rife, because > parents still expected their children to work instead and contribute to the > household. The average child was very poorly educated if at all. > > Children actually taking examinations at age 11 are already on the academic > track for those who are both clever and rich enough to continue their education > further. It may even be the entrance exam for a posh public school. Your > average working-class oik is never going to get anywhere near that exam paper. It's a fair point, and one that did occur to me, but I didn't want to be even _more_ prolix and hedge it about with disclaimers. Yes, education for all is a relatively modern thing. In the days when it was for the elite few, well, I suppose it *would* be more tailored for the elite, and thus would be challenging to non-elite, even generations later. But I am nonetheless surprised at by just how much. > For fun, have a crack at some of the recent exam papers given to 13 year olds > hoping for a scholarship: https://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx ... wow. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Jul 18 08:39:13 2018 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 06:39:13 -0700 Subject: Info, spice model parameters for DEC pulse transformers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <816D5EB56AF54508A70C9AB789DB789B@Vincew7> From: Joseph Oswald: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 12:15 AM > I'm trying to model the PDP-1 DEC system models, first with SPICE > (ngspice on Linux), then with VHDL. The spice modeling of flip-chip modules has been an interest area for me. I imagine that's similar, though perhaps less daunting, than modeling the earlier system modules. Flip chip schematics, etc. can be found here: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/flipchip/flipchip.php and some of the spice model stuff here: http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/spice/ Particularly a parts library and the Perl to extract information (netlists) from the Eagle schematics. There are sub-directories with results from the Perl for red and blue handled modules, and a few of the green. Finding data to fill in the component model library is "fun", as the parts are long obsolete, and data sheets are hard to find. I also lack the EE skills to be effective at converting the data sheets into spice models, even when I can find them. Your first "fun" step might be to locate module schematics and convert them to a useful form. > I'm struggling to understand the properties of various transformers in > the system module circuits, most importantly (at least, the ones I see > in schematics I want to model) Those are all earlier than the info that I have, which is mostly for the T2037 and T2052. Perhaps the earlier ones are wound on a similar core, or the measurement technique Josh and I used can be used to begin to reverse engineer them: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/pulse.php > Is there any source for information about these? Basic specs? I don't > even know what the turns ratios are for these parts, much less > plausible inductances, so my spice models misbehave pretty badly. Unfortunately, the schematics don't usually state the relevant specs (just part numbers), so it may be necessary to measure up originals. (Hopefully in-circuit.) Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 10:53:27 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 08:53:27 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On 07/18/2018 04:19 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > https://www.amazon.com/SmartDisk-FlashPath-Floppy-Adapter-SmartMedia/dp/B00005QXW7 Yup. I've still got one of the FlashPath units after having taken one apart and destroyed it in the process. There;s a small electromagnet (coil) located where it can be coupled to the drive head. The rest is pretty straightforward--an Atmel MCU, some RAM and random logic, along with the driver/sense to the electromagnet. There's no way for it to determine what cylinder the floppy drive is positioned to, nor any way for it to determine when the Index position is being passed, which is why it requires a driver on the host to operate. --Chuck From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 11:02:21 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 17:02:21 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <48B7A183-F8FE-4382-94D8-81C5A80923FD@gmail.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <48B7A183-F8FE-4382-94D8-81C5A80923FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 Jul 2018, at 03:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Could the Gotek firmware, and some drivers on PC's with "HD" or "ED" controllers, be kludged together to get faster data transfers? Replying to myself here but these are the current config file parameters, I think either setting ibmpc-hdout or one of the pin2 settings will enable faster transfers. Drive Emulation: - *interface* = shugart | ibmpc | ibmpc-hdout | akai-s950 | amiga | jc* - Pin assignments of the floppy-drive interface - *shugart*: Shugart interface (Amiga, Atari ST, many others) - *ibmpc*: IBM PC interface, no output on pin 2 - *ibmpc-hdout*: IBM PC, high-density-select output on pin 2 - *akai-s950*: Akai S950 - *amiga*: Drive ID hack on pin 34. Use *shugart* instead when possible. - See Amiga-specific hints for advice on this setting. - *jc*: Specified by jumper JC (closed = IBM PC, open = Shugart) - *host* = unspecified* | acorn | akai | ... - Host platform: Improves image-format detection for generic types such as IMG - *acorn*: Acorn ADFS - *akai*: Akai synths (S01, S20, S950) - *dec*: DEC (RX33, RX50) - *ensoniq*: Ensoniq synths (ASR/TS series, and others) - *gem*: General Music (S2, S3, S2R) - *memotech*: Memotech - *msx*: MSX - *pc98*: NEC PC-98 - *pc-dos*: PC DOS Format (geometry determined from Bios Parameter Block) - *ti99*: TI-99/4A - *uknc*: UKNC, DVK (Soviet PDP-11) - *unspecified*: Detection based on image-name suffix only - *pin02* = auto* | nc | low | high | rdy | nrdy | dens | ndens | chg | nchg - Manually assign a signal to floppy interface pin 2 - *auto*: Automatically determined from *interface =* setting - *nc*: Unused / No Connection - *low*, *high*: Constant low (0v) or high (5v) voltage - *rdy*, *nrdy*: Drive ready, or logical complement - *dens*, *ndens*: Density mode (HD = 0v), or logical complement - *chg*, *nchg*: Disk changed, or logical complement - *pin34* = auto* | nc | low | high | rdy | nrdy | dens | ndens | chg | nchg - Manually assign a signal to floppy interface pin 34 - *write-protect* = yes | no* - Are images write protected when initially mounted? - Protection can be toggled by holding eject for 2 seconds - *yes*: Forcibly write-protect images - *no*: Respect the FAT read-only attribute - *side-select-glitch-filter* = 0-255 (0*) - Filter glitches in the SIDE-select signal shorter than N microseconds - Useful on some old hardware (eg. CP/M systems) - *track-change* = instant* | realtime - Rotational offset of data after a track change - *instant*: No rotation during track change - *realtime*: Emulate rotation of disk while track is changing - *index-suppression* = yes* | no - Are index pulses suppressed when RDATA and WDATA inactive? - Older systems may depend on constant index pulses (eg. BBC Micro) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk On 18 July 2018 at 08:37, Adrian Graham wrote: > > On 18 Jul 2018, at 03:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > Could the Gotek firmware, and some drivers on PC's with "HD" or "ED" > controllers, be kludged together to get faster data transfers? > > > Good question. I?ll ask since that could be implemented with a line in the > config file. Keir is constantly updating the firmware to add extra features > so it might be there already. > > 3" and 3.25" were also almost completely compatible with the "standard" 34 > pin interface. Although I remember one drive that had 5V and 12V swapped > in its 4 pin power connector! And my 8" drives did not standardize power > connector and requirements. > > > Early Amigas had +5 and +12 swapped . I didn?t realise this and the first > time I hooked up a Gotek to my A500 it cooked the USB stick but thankfully > didn?t kill the logic on the board. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > From lproven at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 11:03:46 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 18:03:46 +0200 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 at 17:53, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Yup. I've still got one of the FlashPath units after having taken one > apart and destroyed it in the process. > > There;s a small electromagnet (coil) located where it can be coupled to > the drive head. The rest is pretty straightforward--an Atmel MCU, some > RAM and random logic, along with the driver/sense to the electromagnet. > > There's no way for it to determine what cylinder the floppy drive is > positioned to, nor any way for it to determine when the Index position > is being passed, which is why it requires a driver on the host to operate. Aha! Interesting. So it's not actually able to be read as if it were a diskette? It's sort of hijacking the drive as an alternative I/O medium, pulsing data at a stationary drive head, ignoring rotation and track positioning? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 12:00:45 2018 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 10:00:45 -0700 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: And so does the HP 85. Marc > On Jul 17, 2018, at 1:50 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > > The HP9830 (1972) with it's ROM'ed BASIC works this way. > LIST produces a 'cleaned up' version of the source code. > > > >> On 2018-Jul-17, at 1:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >> >> I should also mention that for the IBM S/23, once the BASIC program is entered, the original >> source is discarded and only the tokenized code remains (comments are retained as-is). The >> LIST command runs a de-tokenizer and reconstructs the original source (well close to it anyway). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 12:33 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> At 03:53 PM 7/14/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>> isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? >>>> >>>> Yes. >>>> And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. >>>> http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC >>> >>> I remember a detokenizer for RSTS BASIC-PLUS that's not on that list. >>> >>> I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. >>> >>> Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS >>> decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. >>> The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence >>> between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you >>> could get back very reasonable code." >>> >>> And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: >>> >>> https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 >>> >>> - John >>> >> > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 12:21:40 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 14:21:40 -0300 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <85a26720-573f-211f-f98f-68dd5304634b@gmail.com> I would think that any interpreted BASIC would do this or for that matter any interpreted language except maybe for APL which is pretty much written with tokens anyway.? One other exception I can think of is perl? which is stored as source text.? Saving in tokenized form was good for to reasons, it saved storage space, both in memory and on mass storage and when you loaded the program it was ready to go. Paul. On 2018-07-18 2:00 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > And so does the HP 85. > Marc > >> On Jul 17, 2018, at 1:50 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> >> The HP9830 (1972) with it's ROM'ed BASIC works this way. >> LIST produces a 'cleaned up' version of the source code. >> >> >> >>> On 2018-Jul-17, at 1:21 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I should also mention that for the IBM S/23, once the BASIC program is entered, the original >>> source is discarded and only the tokenized code remains (comments are retained as-is). The >>> LIST command runs a de-tokenizer and reconstructs the original source (well close to it anyway). >>> >>> TTFN - Guy >>> >>>> On Jul 17, 2018, at 12:33 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> At 03:53 PM 7/14/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 14 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> isn't the? basic? programs? also stored in tokinized? forms!?!? >>>>> Yes. >>>>> And the tokens are not the same between different brand implementations, or even between different versions, such as MBASIC 4 and MBASIC 5. >>>>> http://fileformats.archiveteam.org/wiki/Tokenized_BASIC >>>> I remember a detokenizer for RSTS BASIC-PLUS that's not on that list. >>>> >>>> I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. >>>> >>>> Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS >>>> decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. >>>> The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence >>>> between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you >>>> could get back very reasonable code." >>>> >>>> And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: >>>> >>>> https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 >>>> >>>> - John >>>> From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 18 12:47:15 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 13:47:15 -0400 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <85a26720-573f-211f-f98f-68dd5304634b@gmail.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> <85a26720-573f-211f-f98f-68dd5304634b@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 18, 2018, at 1:21 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > > I would think that any interpreted BASIC would do this or for that matter any interpreted language except maybe for APL which is pretty much written with tokens anyway. One other exception I can think of is perl which is stored as source text. Saving in tokenized form was good for to reasons, it saved storage space, both in memory and on mass storage and when you loaded the program it was ready to go. > > Paul... >> >>>>> I think it was called a "decompiler" though. Seemed like magic at the time. >>>>> >>>>> Googling reveals "You may be remembering the BASIC PLUS >>>>> decompiler under RSTS. RSTS BASIC PLUS was interpreted from "push-pop" code. >>>>> The symbol table was available in the compiled file, and the correspondence >>>>> between push-pop operations and BASIC PLUS source was very close, so you >>>>> could get back very reasonable code." >>>>> >>>>> And our previous discussion of it a decade ago: >>>>> >>>>> https://marc.info/?l=classiccmp&m=121804804023540&w=2 I would not say "written with tokens". Basic-PLUS essentially used a stack machine code, easy to generate and pretty efficient. It wasn't designed to be reversible, but since the symbol table was saved as well (had to be, to allow for incremental editing and interactive debugging) you could reverse pretty easily. This sort of thing has a long history. UCSD Pascal used something similar, which it called "P-code". The TUTOR language of the U of Illinois PLATO system did as well, except for expressions which were compiled into actual machine code. That sort of mixed encoding was used a decade earlier in the first ALGOL compiler, by Dijkstra and Zonneveld, 1961, for the EL-X1. And yes, it's still done a lot, I believe Python is a good example. A somewhat different approach is found in RT-11 BASIC, a somewhat simpler language than BASIC-PLUS and an unrelated implementation. That one does convert the text into tokens, it doesn't generate a stack language transformation as B+ did. And the token encoding is explicitly designed to be reversible: when you use the LIST command the token stream is converted back to source text. That means, for example, that comments are included in the token stream (unlike B+). paul From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Jul 18 13:01:00 2018 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:01:00 -0700 Subject: Info, spice model parameters for DEC pulse transformers? In-Reply-To: References: <816D5EB56AF54508A70C9AB789DB789B@Vincew7> Message-ID: <65EC6B4887744F839D65428E7FBA50B8@Vincew7> From: Joseph Oswald: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 9:44 AM > Thanks for the response. I had seen your info on the two other parts. > Unfortunately, I have no idea if these system modules exist outside a > museum. You're welcome. I've seen them occasionally, but not often. Like the flip-chip modules, I fear much of the information about the less common modules may not be recoverable. > I might have to back off even further and work out a technique on > something like the B301 or B611 modules, which seem to be obtainable > and at least vaguely similar to the transformer circuits I am > interested in. Possibly quite similar, though with a lot less germanium and such, due to being of a later generation. > Can you detail a little more what your measurement method is? Do you > have an LRC meter or something, and measure the resistance + > inductance open-circuit? At what frequency? It has been a while, I'm working from memory, and not an EE to begin with, so I likely have the details wrong or at least a little fuzzy. My understanding is that the gauge and length of the wire determine it's DC resistance. An accurate resistance measurement in the milliohm range is tricky, as there are usually oxides, etc. In theory, you can get a number that constrains the type and amount of wire in a winding. There is an additional issue: sometimes your exemplar is actually defective, so for the T2052, I tossed the measurements for the transformer that seemed atypical. If you have at best one example, I guess you'll just have to hope the results are confirmed by the simulation. Measuring the inductance is a little easier, and as I understand things, much more important anyway. Knowing the inductance and the core material, one can determine the number of turns. I use a tool called "mini Ring Core Calculator" by Wilfried Burmeister to explore the likely possibilities. Knowing or postulating an FT-37-77 core constrains the problem nicely. For the actual measurements, I borrowed a friend's inductance meter. Your emphasis is not really on physically re-creating the part, so it seems likely that all Spice really needs is the inductance of the windings and some simple assumptions about their coupling. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 13:15:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:15:11 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: <379c4399-205a-4cd0-fa93-4abf47b4de38@sydex.com> On 07/18/2018 09:03 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Aha! Interesting. So it's not actually able to be read as if it were a > diskette? It's sort of hijacking the drive as an alternative I/O > medium, pulsing data at a stationary drive head, ignoring rotation and > track positioning? That's essentially it. The device does spew out a dummy boot sector if it's not interacting with the driver software. But yes, essentially a (rather inefficient) serial interface. On the plus side, there's no seek timing. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 13:20:45 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:20:45 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <48B7A183-F8FE-4382-94D8-81C5A80923FD@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/18/2018 09:02 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > On 18 Jul 2018, at 03:22, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > Could the Gotek firmware, and some drivers on PC's with "HD" or "ED" > controllers, be kludged together to get faster data transfers? I found that I could produce a 1.44M (500Kbps) data stream using a 16MHz ATMega162 with some clever coding. The trick is to have the track data already reduced to timing pulses and use the PWM facility in the MCU to generate them. I don't see why a carefully-coded STM32F103 routine couldn't do this, although the problem with that approach is that you have only 20KB of RAM and expanding that isn't straightforward. On the other hand, moving up to a STM32F4 series chip would solve that issue neatly. Some members of the family even have SDRAM interfaces. I have a STM32F429 board with 8MB of SDRAM directly addressable. --Chuck From fozztexx at fozztexx.com Wed Jul 18 13:49:19 2018 From: fozztexx at fozztexx.com (Chris Osborn) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 11:49:19 -0700 Subject: BASIC (Was: Reading HP2000 tapes In-Reply-To: <85a26720-573f-211f-f98f-68dd5304634b@gmail.com> References: <00eb5b4c-104c-3528-2749-c10df2a73bcc@ekoan.com> <1649994c69c-c92-7a1a@webjas-vaa177.srv.aolmail.net> <20180717194622.15D0527415@mx1.ezwind.net> <8A1E9C06-EB45-40B6-BA9B-7A5A178B2ADB@shiresoft.com> <85a26720-573f-211f-f98f-68dd5304634b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <6E79856C-099C-402F-A44E-27383F621DEC@fozztexx.com> On Jul 18, 2018, at 10:21 AM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I would think that any interpreted BASIC would do this or for that matter any interpreted language except maybe for APL You'd think so but many BASIC dialects don't fully tokenize. Many leave in all the extra spaces the user types in, such as the Microsoft BASIC on various Commodores. Some BASICs even require the spaces in order to properly parse during tokenization. There's a page here which includes a field for machines which do full tokenization: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_computers_with_on-board_BASIC -- Follow me on twitter: @FozzTexx Check out my blog: http://insentricity.com From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 18 14:55:39 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 12:55:39 -0700 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <379c4399-205a-4cd0-fa93-4abf47b4de38@sydex.com> References: <4a3f83c7-d839-c5fb-82db-ff27f5cbc9c2@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <00a27bf9-84a4-bdea-7d20-26ed2da48cd3@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> <379c4399-205a-4cd0-fa93-4abf47b4de38@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/18/18 11:15 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > essentially a (rather inefficient) serial interface. where the pulses jitter, and interfere with each other if too close in the real world. The only place this shows up in an emulator is knowing there may be write precompensation occuring from the host side. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 15:34:46 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:34:46 +0000 Subject: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? In-Reply-To: References: <92d15abc-aca8-4849-9ee2-6c60ea2c0d5a@bitsavers.org> <20180709111706.0ca798bb@asrock.bcwi.net> , <289974f8-5e43-6257-7455-cda9c1d34e83@bitsavers.org>, Message-ID: Hi Al I have a bunch of HaL stuff in my car. When and where do you want to meet? I have a number of HaL specific manuals an empty disk holder ( possibly for a CD ROM drive ) a disk drive of unknown source and a couple CD-ROMs One is the system and the other is the languages ( things like the HaL compiler, no license required ). Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2018 12:06:59 PM To: Al Kossow; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? I may be that the 300 required some special init sequence to the processor. It seems like I recall that it needed to do a scan to initialize a couple of values. This may make it not work on a Sparcstation 5. I don't recall if we shipped units with this problem or if they made a rev of the silicon before shipping??? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2018 1:05:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? that would be great. I've not been able to get Jason's images to boot I also got a Sparcstation 5 running Solaris 2.6 and have had no luck getting it to recognize the HAL boot drives. Their is something odd about the drives, I've only been able to image one of the boot drives on a Linux machine even though they boot fine. On 7/11/18 11:12 AM, dwight wrote: > Hi Al > > I have a line on a CD and may be find some documents to go with it. A friend has this and I hope to get a copy next > week on Tues or Wed. Are you going to be at the Museum next week. I don't know where you office is on the East bay side. > It might be closer. > > Dwight > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *From:* cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow via cctalk > *Sent:* Monday, July 9, 2018 1:34:24 PM > *To:* cctalk at classiccmp.org > *Subject:* Re: Anyone have a HALstation 300 install CD? > > cool, thanks! > > I don't currently have a Solaris box set up or I would have edited > the password file, after dealing with finding an 80 to 50 pin adapter > for the drive. > > On 7/9/18 1:31 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: >> Al - I made ISOs of the media I had before giving away my HALstations >> in 2009. I will email you directly with a link. > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 16:27:58 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:27:58 +0000 Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 Message-ID: I asked this in the GOTEK thread but I think it got lost in the chatter. Does any of this apply to the equivalent devices with the board labeled SMUFDDV4 at 1104? I have a few of them and would love to make them work with non-PCs as well. bill From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 16:38:25 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 22:38:25 +0100 Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9A0FDBA6-24F8-4109-A2B8-43D941331622@gmail.com> > On 18 Jul 2018, at 22:27, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > > I asked this in the GOTEK thread but I think it got lost in the chatter. > > Does any of this apply to the equivalent devices with the board > > labeled SMUFDDV4 at 1104? > > > I have a few of them and would love to make them work with > > non-PCs as well. > Reading this I suspect the answer?s unfortunately ?no? http://goughlui.com/2013/04/24/review-unbranded-1-44mb-usb-100-floppy-emulator -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 18 18:01:31 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:01:31 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 Message-ID: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> https://www.ebay.com/itm/292646012304 local pickup only the reserve is >$1500 I would guess the CDC Winchesters are toast if they haven't had their heads locked From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 18 18:04:40 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 16:04:40 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6914a1a9-93d3-6587-a16d-676124e0c24f@bitsavers.org> oh, and this isn't me. I just had a really bad experience with them where they "lost" 2 of the 5 Priam disk drives I bought from them, so I guess local pickup in Rochester NY is a good thing. On 7/18/18 4:01 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292646012304 > > local pickup only > > the reserve is >$1500 > > I would guess the CDC Winchesters are toast if they haven't had their heads locked > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 18 22:39:25 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:39:25 -0700 Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 In-Reply-To: <9A0FDBA6-24F8-4109-A2B8-43D941331622@gmail.com> References: <9A0FDBA6-24F8-4109-A2B8-43D941331622@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5752f015-19e6-a0cb-6f53-2c9b1b6b26ba@sydex.com> On 07/18/2018 02:38 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Reading this I suspect the answer?s unfortunately ?no? > > http://goughlui.com/2013/04/24/review-unbranded-1-44mb-usb-100-floppy-emulator > Back in 2007, I wrote the vendor (Nanjing Yuheng Electronics Co.Ltd.), about this: https://web.archive.org/web/20071012042429/http://qhsfd.com/product.asp They responded that the firmware was no longer available, as it had been copied by too many other people. Think of that--Chinese pirating Chinese software. At any rate, there it is. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Jul 18 23:12:57 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:12:57 -0700 (PDT) Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 In-Reply-To: <5752f015-19e6-a0cb-6f53-2c9b1b6b26ba@sydex.com> from Chuck Guzis via cctalk at "Jul 18, 18 08:39:25 pm" Message-ID: <201807190412.w6J4Cvsq17301752@floodgap.com> > They responded that the firmware was no longer available, as it had been > copied by too many other people. Think of that--Chinese pirating > Chinese software. Well, there were a lot of Americans pirating American software ... ;) -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Workers of the world, stand up! You have nothing to lose but your chairs. -- From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 11:04:44 2018 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 09:04:44 -0700 Subject: 360 Technologies selloff In-Reply-To: <00db01d41d1c$f0550320$d0ff0960$@com> References: <7806e061-0743-9755-c9dd-4b83a3d215b4@bitsavers.org> <013901d41936$7e8857e0$7b9907a0$@com> <00db01d41d1c$f0550320$d0ff0960$@com> Message-ID: www.conticomp.com is still down. If they think it's up (internally) then maybe DNS is using the wrong IP address. Marc On Mon, Jul 16, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Just talked to Lidan at Continental Computers. They did not realize the > website was down! > > You can call him directly at 310-906-3553, or email lidan at conticomp.com > > They killed the pallet of Sun pizza boxes, but the other machines they > parted out and put the parts in stock. > > They do have some old DEC stuff; he will check for anything PDP related. > > They do not have any VT100 stuff left, nor any terminals below a VT320. > > He will also look for HP 1000 type boxes, and hdd and tape drives to match. > > > > Cindy > > > > From: Wayne S [mailto:wayne.sudol at hotmail.com] > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 1:12 AM > To: marc.howard at ieee.org; Marc Howard; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Electronics Plus > Subject: Re: 360 Technologies selloff > > > > They still have am active ebay store, though. > > > > Continental Computers > > > Wayne > > > > > On Jul 15, 2018, at 9:51 PM, Marc Howard via cctalk > wrote: > > I'm not sure Continental Computer is still in business. www.conticomp.com > doesn't respond anymore. > > Sigh, > > Marc > > On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 9:44 AM, Electronics Plus via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Are there any HP resellers left now that have > > their own inventory and don't speculatively list parts that they don't > > have or never had? > > > > Sure! The problem is that most of them don't know that collectors still > > want old stuff. Continental Computers in Calif has old DEC, SUN, and old > > and new HP stuff. Pallets of it! They just don't advertise it. > > > > If there are not too many requests, you can send me PN, and I can see who > > is ACTUALLY listing them, not just advertising. > > > > Cindy > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > > > > From josephoswald at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 11:44:19 2018 From: josephoswald at gmail.com (Joseph Oswald) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 00:44:19 +0800 Subject: Info, spice model parameters for DEC pulse transformers? In-Reply-To: <816D5EB56AF54508A70C9AB789DB789B@Vincew7> References: <816D5EB56AF54508A70C9AB789DB789B@Vincew7> Message-ID: Thanks for the response. I had seen your info on the two other parts. Unfortunately, I have no idea if these system modules exist outside a museum. I might have to back off even further and work out a technique on something like the B301 or B611 modules, which seem to be obtainable and at least vaguely similar to the transformer circuits I am interested in. Can you detail a little more what your measurement method is? Do you have an LRC meter or something, and measure the resistance + inductance open-circuit? At what frequency? --Joe On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:39 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Joseph Oswald: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 12:15 AM >> >> I'm trying to model the PDP-1 DEC system models, first with SPICE >> (ngspice on Linux), then with VHDL. > > > The spice modeling of flip-chip modules has been an interest area for me. I > imagine that's similar, though perhaps less daunting, than modeling the > earlier system modules. Flip chip schematics, etc. can be found here: > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/flipchip/flipchip.php > > and some of the spice model stuff here: > http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/spice/ > > Particularly a parts library and the Perl to extract information (netlists) > from the Eagle schematics. There are sub-directories with results from the > Perl for red and blue handled modules, and a few of the green. Finding data > to fill in the component model library is "fun", > as the parts are long obsolete, and data sheets are hard to find. > I also lack the EE skills to be effective at converting the data sheets into > spice models, even when I can find them. > > Your first "fun" step might be to locate module schematics and convert them > to a useful form. > >> I'm struggling to understand the properties of various transformers in >> the system module circuits, most importantly (at least, the ones I see >> in schematics I want to model) > > > Those are all earlier than the info that I have, which is mostly for the > T2037 and T2052. Perhaps the earlier ones are wound on a similar core, or > the measurement technique Josh and I used can be used to begin to reverse > engineer them: > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/repair/pulse.php > >> Is there any source for information about these? Basic specs? I don't >> even know what the turns ratios are for these parts, much less >> plausible inductances, so my spice models misbehave pretty badly. > > > Unfortunately, the schematics don't usually state the relevant specs > (just part numbers), so it may be necessary to measure up originals. > (Hopefully in-circuit.) > > Vince From johannesthelen at hotmail.com Wed Jul 18 15:15:50 2018 From: johannesthelen at hotmail.com (Johannes Thelen) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:15:50 +0000 Subject: Info needed: CMI 1600, CDC Omega/480, IPL Systems, Olivetti 5300 Message-ID: Anyone familiar with these PCMs? I got a CMI 1640 and little help needed. Here's photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1w74AYe6lRSn9gJhyKVlBYAq5zRDWybSw?usp=sharing What this 370 clone is exactly? If I have understood right, Steven Ippolito's IPL Systems Inc developed the original machine and CMI (Cambridge Memories Inc) made them. Also these sold as Omega/480 and Olivetti 5300 series. Later CMI made their own versions and I believe this one of those. But I haven't found model 1640. So is this 1641..? What is difference between CMI and others? Microcode? I got belong with the machine a couple manuals, Maintenance and Theory of Operation. Unfortunately original microcode disk is missing (and 8" drive...), so that would be needed if I ever want to fire this thing up. Any ideas where I could find a one? All ideas & info are welcome! - Johannes Thelen johannesthelen at gmail.com Finland Before microcomputers blog (Finnish) http://ennenmikrotietokoneita.blogspot.fi/ From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Jul 18 21:08:38 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 21:08:38 -0500 Subject: Info needed: CMI 1600, CDC Omega/480, IPL Systems, Olivetti 5300 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B4FF2A6.7010501@pico-systems.com> On 07/18/2018 03:15 PM, Johannes Thelen via cctech wrote: > Anyone familiar with these PCMs? I got a CMI 1640 and little help needed. Here's photos: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1w74AYe6lRSn9gJhyKVlBYAq5zRDWybSw?usp=sharing > > What this 370 clone is exactly? If I have understood right, Steven Ippolito's IPL Systems Inc developed the original machine and CMI (Cambridge Memories Inc) made them. Also these sold as Omega/480 and Olivetti 5300 series. Later CMI made their own versions and I believe this one of those. But I haven't found model 1640. So is this 1641..? What is difference between CMI and others? Microcode? > > I got belong with the machine a couple manuals, Maintenance and Theory of Operation. Unfortunately original microcode disk is missing (and 8" drive...), so that would be needed if I ever want to fire this thing up. Any ideas where I could find a one? > > Wow! solid state memory and ECL chips for the CPU! Going to be real hard to find the missing items unless somebody who worked with them hid them in their garage. Anyway, such a machine is pretty useless without a bunch of peripherals. You'd need a disk control and drives and a comm control to be able to do much of anything. Jon From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 18 23:26:35 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2018 23:26:35 -0500 Subject: Info needed: CMI 1600, CDC Omega/480, IPL Systems, Olivetti 5300 In-Reply-To: <5B4FF2A6.7010501@pico-systems.com> References: <5B4FF2A6.7010501@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I have a sew thousand ECL chips I'd love to sell... On Wed, Jul 18, 2018 at 9:08 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 07/18/2018 03:15 PM, Johannes Thelen via cctech wrote: > >> Anyone familiar with these PCMs? I got a CMI 1640 and little help needed. >> Here's photos: https://drive.google.com/drive >> /folders/1w74AYe6lRSn9gJhyKVlBYAq5zRDWybSw?usp=sharing >> >> What this 370 clone is exactly? If I have understood right, Steven >> Ippolito's IPL Systems Inc developed the original machine and CMI >> (Cambridge Memories Inc) made them. Also these sold as Omega/480 and >> Olivetti 5300 series. Later CMI made their own versions and I believe this >> one of those. But I haven't found model 1640. So is this 1641..? What is >> difference between CMI and others? Microcode? >> >> I got belong with the machine a couple manuals, Maintenance and Theory of >> Operation. Unfortunately original microcode disk is missing (and 8" >> drive...), so that would be needed if I ever want to fire this thing up. >> Any ideas where I could find a one? >> >> >> Wow! solid state memory and ECL chips for the CPU! Going to be real > hard to find the missing items unless somebody who worked with them hid > them in their garage. Anyway, such a machine is pretty useless without a > bunch of peripherals. You'd need a disk control and drives and a comm > control to be able to do much of anything. > > Jon > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 19 02:53:11 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:53:11 +0200 (CEST) Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 18 Jul 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/292646012304 > > local pickup only > > the reserve is >$1500 ROTFL A very big and expensive door stopper without OS tapes. But most importantly: the CPU board is missing! The card in slot 2 appears to be an additional SIO card. This is a model 20, quite low-end. We have a model 32 (much rarer, I haven't found anyone else with a model 32), but it is non-functional because I have no tapes. The SMD disk has too many errors to recover a functional system. Christian From robert626001 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 06:29:29 2018 From: robert626001 at gmail.com (Robert) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 06:29:29 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: Not being very active on this list, I hadn't realized that you needed one. I'm delighted to hear that you got one and wish you a full and speedy recovery. -- Robert On Sat, Jul 14, 2018 at 2:14 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > Got the call yesterday. Transplant operation was a success. Still at the hospital recovering. Will update when able. > From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 19 07:15:32 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 12:15:32 +0000 Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 In-Reply-To: <5752f015-19e6-a0cb-6f53-2c9b1b6b26ba@sydex.com> References: <9A0FDBA6-24F8-4109-A2B8-43D941331622@gmail.com> <5752f015-19e6-a0cb-6f53-2c9b1b6b26ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/18/2018 11:39 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/18/2018 02:38 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > >> Reading this I suspect the answer?s unfortunately ?no? >> >> http://goughlui.com/2013/04/24/review-unbranded-1-44mb-usb-100-floppy-emulator >> > Back in 2007, I wrote the vendor (Nanjing Yuheng Electronics Co.Ltd.), > about this: > > https://web.archive.org/web/20071012042429/http://qhsfd.com/product.asp > > They responded that the firmware was no longer available, as it had been > copied by too many other people. Think of that--Chinese pirating > Chinese software. And yet, there does not appear to be a single copy anywhere on the web.? Go figure. > > At any rate, there it is. > > bill From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 19 10:47:21 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 08:47:21 -0700 Subject: SMUFDDV4@1104 In-Reply-To: References: <9A0FDBA6-24F8-4109-A2B8-43D941331622@gmail.com> <5752f015-19e6-a0cb-6f53-2c9b1b6b26ba@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/19/2018 05:15 AM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > And yet, there does not appear to be a single copy anywhere > on the web.? Go figure. I've found .BIN files for the firmware, but no information on the actual MCU used in these things. Not even a datasheet. My guess is that it's probably an offshoot of a CH375 core. But that's not a lot to go on. Maybe it's a case of "you had to be there". --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Jul 19 11:27:28 2018 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 09:27:28 -0700 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> Al has the 4052R12 ROM dumps up on bitsavers. Bob On 7/15/2018 12:49 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > I have been recovering dozens of old Tektronix 4050 series tapes and found > one with Fast Graphics software for the 4051. This software program jumped > into 6800 assembly code and retrieved three bytes per vector from a tape > file. Apparently this tape is a duplicate - and it appears that all the > files bigger than 1KB have corrupt data. > > Apparently from the 4014 programmers guide - they had a set of demo picture > files including a list with R2-D2. > > I have found Jos Dreesen's ftp tar file with some 4014 pictures - but I'm > looking for an R2-D2 picture file that is on the tape I have but corrupt. > > I also discovered that Tektronix made a 4052/4054 R12 Graphics Enhancement > ROM pack which included the Fast Graphics program in ROM. I would love to > find one of those ROM packs - hint/hint :) > > I did recover one of the shorter picture files of Snoopy - but since I > don't have a 4051, I can't run the Fast Graphics program on my 4052 or > 4054. One of my buddies threw a C program together to convert the data > file into Tek 4050 PRINT statements. > > I've posted the SNOOPY basic program and screenshots of running it on vcfed > in a new thread: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64726-Tektronix-4051-4052-4052A-4054-4054A-Program-Archives > > I'm also still looking for a 4051/4052 Display Board. Mike Haas posted > pictures here in Oct 2016 of lots of Tektronix boards including a Display > Board - but I don't have any direct contact info for him. > > Monty > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 12:20:13 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 10:20:13 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 12:53 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Wed, 18 Jul 2018, Al Kossow wrote: > >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/292646012304 >> >> local pickup only >> >> the reserve is >$1500 >> > > ROTFL > A very big and expensive door stopper without OS tapes. > But most importantly: the CPU board is missing! > The card in slot 2 appears to be an additional SIO card. > > This is a model 20, quite low-end. We have a model 32 (much rarer, I > haven't found anyone else with a model 32), but it is non-functional > because I have no tapes. The SMD disk has too many errors to recover a > functional system. > There's a Model 31 at LCM+L (used to be mine). If anyone ever does recover media for these things, it'd be nice to get it running... - Josh > > Christian > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Jul 19 16:16:43 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:16:43 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 7/19/18 10:20 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > There's a Model 31 at LCM+L (used to be mine). what kind of disk does it have? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Jul 19 16:17:24 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 21:17:24 +0000 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk>, Message-ID: One thing that bothers me is the continued emphasis on arithmetic and not on mathematics. The kids growing up today will rarely be more than a few feet from a calculator. The first thing on the math test was the "No calculator allowed". I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taught arithmetic but it should be the minimum necessary to recreate a multiplication, square, divide or what ever table. Knowing what 43 * 67 is on an exam is useless in determining if the kid can learn calculus or understand how it relates to the real world. About the hardest math a person might need to know how do do by themselves it to figure the tip at a restaurant. And even then, if the cell phone is charged it will do it for them. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Liam Proven via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 18, 2018 4:33:02 AM To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 at 19:43, Peter Corlett via cctalk wrote: > > That's an extraordinary claim that sets off my bullshit detector. Snopes offers > this commentary: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/1895-exam/ > > 50-100 years before you were at school would be roughly 1870-1920, which is > right at the start of both state-provided schools and compulsory education. The > UK only raised the school leaving age to 11 in 1893. Truancy was rife, because > parents still expected their children to work instead and contribute to the > household. The average child was very poorly educated if at all. > > Children actually taking examinations at age 11 are already on the academic > track for those who are both clever and rich enough to continue their education > further. It may even be the entrance exam for a posh public school. Your > average working-class oik is never going to get anywhere near that exam paper. It's a fair point, and one that did occur to me, but I didn't want to be even _more_ prolix and hedge it about with disclaimers. Yes, education for all is a relatively modern thing. In the days when it was for the elite few, well, I suppose it *would* be more tailored for the elite, and thus would be challenging to non-elite, even generations later. But I am nonetheless surprised at by just how much. > For fun, have a crack at some of the recent exam papers given to 13 year olds > hoping for a scholarship: https://www.etoncollege.com/KSpapers.aspx ... wow. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 16:25:18 2018 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:25:18 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 2:16 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/19/18 10:20 AM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > > > There's a Model 31 at LCM+L (used to be mine). > > what kind of disk does it have? > > SMD Disks, 40mb Memorex. Don't recall the model numbers, I can dig it up if you need. - Josh From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 16:51:23 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 14:51:23 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? Message-ID: Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? Laserjet IIP printers? Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners? (home office, NOT professional) Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? Generic 386? PCs? Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 16:52:54 2018 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 17:52:54 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Generic 386 pcs are of interest to me, how many? On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:51 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > Laserjet IIP printers? > > Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners? (home office, NOT > professional) > > Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? > > Generic 386? PCs? > > > Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? > From jim at photojim.ca Thu Jul 19 17:01:19 2018 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:01:19 -0600 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <052101d41fac$05d6dbb0$11849310$@photojim.ca> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 3:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Landfill? Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? === If a person is going to dabble with modems, these are as good as it gets. If you don't mind shipping, and you're just looking for compensation for shipping costs and packaging, I'd take a couple (assuming you're .us or .ca), but there is still a little demand for these. There is nothing better. (There are a few more interesting modems, like acoustic coupler modems and some of the Telebit stuff, but for practical usage, a v.92 v.Everything Courier is top of the heap.) Jim From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:01:37 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:01:37 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164b4900a9d-c91-fa50@webjas-vaa234.srv.aolmail.net> !P? laserjet? was a landmark printer? it? was? ?introduction? of? a? more Budget solution to the laserjet? line? ?Ed#? www.smecc.org? In a message dated 7/19/2018 2:53:15 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Generic 386 pcs are of interest to me, how many? On Thu, Jul 19, 2018, 5:51 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > Laserjet IIP printers? > > Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners? (home office, NOT > professional) > > Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? > > Generic 386? PCs? > > > Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? > From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:03:34 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:03:34 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <164b491d493-c95-886c@webjas-vae097.srv.aolmail.net> not? ?going to? vcf. but... if the? iiP? is? really? really? clean and? ?found its? way in the truck of a? car? to Arizona? we? would? give noe? ?a home ? Ed#? www.smecc.org? In a message dated 7/19/2018 2:51:33 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? Laserjet IIP printers? Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners? (home office, NOT professional) Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? Generic 386? PCs? Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:06:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:06:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> Generic 386? PCs? >> Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, devin davison wrote: > Generic 386 pcs are of interest to me, how many? half a dozen. Might be some 286 and some early Pentium I will keep the hard disks until I can get around to wiping stuff from them. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 19 17:07:06 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:07:06 -0600 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <651e0490-5e50-3564-4415-065197deec7d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/19/2018 03:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? I'm finding that my interest in BBSing and other modem based communications of the '80s & '90s is flaring again. As such, a pair of Courier's is on my list to acquire when it's convenient. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From teoz at neo.rr.com Thu Jul 19 17:12:38 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:12:38 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <130C59BCDDEC45F291986705717E2ADE@teoPC> People seem to be looking for AT style PC cases all the time. -----Original Message----- From: Fred Cisin via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 19, 2018 5:51 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Landfill? Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? Laserjet IIP printers? Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners? (home office, NOT professional) Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? Generic 386? PCs? Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:15:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:15:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b491d493-c95-886c@webjas-vae097.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164b491d493-c95-886c@webjas-vae097.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > Laserjet IIP printers? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > not?? ??going to?? vcf. > but... > if the?? iiP?? is?? really?? really?? clean and?? ??found its?? way in the truck of a?? car?? to Arizona?? we?? would?? give noe?? ??a home Two of them. Working when last used ~10 years ago. (how fast do the rollers deteriorate? You got Ubik?) Look clean/no yellowing toner cartridges, maybe aux. paper feeder, I don't know where the font and postscript accessory cartridges are, . . . I have no current travel plans. You get to figure out transport. From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:19:48 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:19:48 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164b4a0b5ad-c97-89f2@webjas-vad200.srv.aolmail.net> We? would love one! what ever accessories? ?your? have? are? welcome as well too? for it!? ?Ed#? ? In a message dated 7/19/2018 3:15:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > Laserjet IIP printers? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > not? ?going to? vcf. > but... > if the? iiP? is? really? really? clean and? ?found its? way in the truck of a? car? to Arizona? we? would? give noe? ?a home Two of them. Working when last used ~10 years ago. (how fast do the rollers deteriorate? You got Ubik?) Look clean/no yellowing toner cartridges, maybe aux. paper feeder, I don't know where the font and postscript accessory cartridges are, . . . I have no current travel plans. You get to figure out transport. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:30:40 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:30:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Evan Koblentz wrote: > The modems and 386 would be on-topic for VCF consignment, but I don't think > the scanners, etc. would be .... we don't want it to become the Vintage > Generic PC Crap Festival. :) Not to worry. I also have a few boxes of old books and IBM slip-case manuals (techRef, etc.), 3" and 3.25" drives, at least one bundle of hard sector disks, half a dozen HP "pinch to close shutter" 3.5" disks, a Shugart 3.5" from before they HAD shutters, a Sony 600RPM 3.5" (if I can find it), . . . ('course all of THAT will look like Generic PC Crap to people unfamiliar, . . . ) I'm not healthy enough (last year I had another TURP surgery, instead of VCF, eclipse, and Concourse D'Lemons) to dig out the 8" drives, or to really load up, so, it's gonna be a much lesser quantity of what I can manage. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:36:55 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:36:55 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b4a0b5ad-c97-89f2@webjas-vad200.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164b4a0b5ad-c97-89f2@webjas-vad200.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: >> Laserjet IIP printers? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > We?? would love one! > what ever accessories?? ??your?? have?? are?? welcome as well too?? for it!?? ??Ed#?? If you arrange transport, and don't make me break up the set :-), then I will also make more effort to dig out whatever accessory cartridges I have left. (many-fonts-in-one, Postscript, etc. I might even still have one of the Doctor Marty maximum cartridges) From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:39:18 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:39:18 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164b4b28e4b-c91-1a1b3@webjas-vac053.srv.aolmail.net> ok? if? anyone? ?coming thru az? this? summer? let? ?us know? if? you can? ?carry a couple? baby lasers! ? ? yes the? pair? is? fine? one? can? go in offsite? display. ? ? In a message dated 7/19/2018 3:37:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? >> Laserjet IIP printers? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > We? would love one! > what ever accessories? ?your? have? are? welcome as well too? for it!? ?Ed#? If you arrange transport, and don't make me break up the set :-), then I will also make more effort to dig out whatever accessory cartridges I have left. (many-fonts-in-one, Postscript, etc. I might even still have one of the Doctor Marty maximum cartridges) From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:40:53 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:40:53 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b4b28e4b-c91-1a1b3@webjas-vac053.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <164b4b3fea0-c93-1596f@webjas-vaa065.srv.aolmail.net> Opps!? ? what is? ?your? ?location? In a message dated 7/19/2018 3:39:28 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? ok? if? anyone? ?coming thru az? this? summer? let? ?us know? if? you can? ?carry a couple? baby lasers! ? ? yes the? pair? is? fine? one? can? go in offsite? display. ? ? In a message dated 7/19/2018 3:37:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? >> Laserjet IIP printers? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > We? would love one! > what ever accessories? ?your? have? are? welcome as well too? for it!? ?Ed#? If you arrange transport, and don't make me break up the set :-), then I will also make more effort to dig out whatever accessory cartridges I have left. (many-fonts-in-one, Postscript, etc. I might even still have one of the Doctor Marty maximum cartridges) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:41:31 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:41:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <130C59BCDDEC45F291986705717E2ADE@teoPC> References: <130C59BCDDEC45F291986705717E2ADE@teoPC> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, TeoZ wrote: > People seem to be looking for AT style PC cases all the time. Do you ever travel to Berkeley? Generic? e-machines, etc. Real IBM 5170 ridiculous "server" cases (need half a dozen drives front panel AND some hard drives INSIDE?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 17:43:44 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:43:44 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b4b3fea0-c93-1596f@webjas-vaa065.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164b4b3fea0-c93-1596f@webjas-vaa065.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > Opps!?? ?? what is?? ??your?? ??location? Berkeley California. 3 blocks from San Pablo and Gilman From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 19 17:49:49 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:49:49 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164b4bc2c39-c8e-15bdf@webjas-vad183.srv.aolmail.net> Unfortunately I? do not? travel much? anymore. We are? ok on Emachines? etc... have a? couple? as? ?they are part of? history? ? a? really? clean? IBM 5170 if it? landed? her? would? be? welcome though! ? Ed# ? In a message dated 7/19/2018 3:41:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, TeoZ wrote: > People seem to be looking for AT style PC cases all the time. Do you ever travel to Berkeley? Generic? e-machines, etc. Real IBM 5170 ridiculous "server" cases (need half a dozen drives front panel AND some hard drives INSIDE?) From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 18:07:59 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:07:59 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b4bc2c39-c8e-15bdf@webjas-vad183.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164b4bc2c39-c8e-15bdf@webjas-vad183.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > a?? really?? clean?? IBM 5170 if it?? landed?? her?? would?? be?? welcome though! My 5150s, 5160s, and 5170s are very far from "clean". Functionality over esthetics. Additional mounting holes, some have additional DB25 and DC37 cutouts in back, some don't have lids (a few never did), one 5170 had bad case damage when a bookcase landed on it during Loma Prieta, etc. My first 5150 started life with the white switch black power supply. A decade ago, the college dumpstered the collection of one of my colleagues; besides IMSAI, ProcTech, N*, he had had a few dozen clean 5150s and 5170s, including several of the "gold-badge" 5170s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Jul 19 18:41:32 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 16:41:32 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <651e0490-5e50-3564-4415-065197deec7d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> References: <651e0490-5e50-3564-4415-065197deec7d@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> Message-ID: >> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? There's four or five. Next week, I'll check which sub-models. On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/19/2018 03:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > I'm finding that my interest in BBSing and other modem based communications > of the '80s & '90s is flaring again. > > As such, a pair of Courier's is on my list to acquire when it's convenient. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 19:11:06 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:11:06 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> References: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Bob, Have you got a link? I looked at ftp://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/405x/ and http://bitsavers.org/bits/Tektronix/405x/4052_firmware/ and didn't see anything Monty On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Al has the 4052R12 ROM dumps up on bitsavers. > > Bob > > > On 7/15/2018 12:49 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > >> I have been recovering dozens of old Tektronix 4050 series tapes and found >> one with Fast Graphics software for the 4051. This software program >> jumped >> into 6800 assembly code and retrieved three bytes per vector from a tape >> file. Apparently this tape is a duplicate - and it appears that all the >> files bigger than 1KB have corrupt data. >> >> Apparently from the 4014 programmers guide - they had a set of demo >> picture >> files including a list with R2-D2. >> >> I have found Jos Dreesen's ftp tar file with some 4014 pictures - but I'm >> looking for an R2-D2 picture file that is on the tape I have but corrupt. >> >> I also discovered that Tektronix made a 4052/4054 R12 Graphics Enhancement >> ROM pack which included the Fast Graphics program in ROM. I would love to >> find one of those ROM packs - hint/hint :) >> >> I did recover one of the shorter picture files of Snoopy - but since I >> don't have a 4051, I can't run the Fast Graphics program on my 4052 or >> 4054. One of my buddies threw a C program together to convert the data >> file into Tek 4050 PRINT statements. >> >> I've posted the SNOOPY basic program and screenshots of running it on >> vcfed >> in a new thread: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64726-Tektronix- >> 4051-4052-4052A-4054-4054A-Program-Archives >> >> I'm also still looking for a 4051/4052 Display Board. Mike Haas posted >> pictures here in Oct 2016 of lots of Tektronix boards including a Display >> Board - but I don't have any direct contact info for him. >> >> Monty >> >> > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Thu Jul 19 19:12:39 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 19:12:39 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: References: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: found it! http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/bits/Tektronix/405x/cartridges/4052R12_Graphics_Enhancement_ROM_Pack/ thanks forever :) Monty On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 7:11 PM, Monty McGraw wrote: > Bob, > > Have you got a link? I looked at ftp://bitsavers.informatik. > uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/tektronix/405x/ and http://bitsavers.org/bits/ > Tektronix/405x/4052_firmware/ > and didn't see anything > > Monty > > On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Al has the 4052R12 ROM dumps up on bitsavers. >> >> Bob >> >> >> On 7/15/2018 12:49 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: >> >>> I have been recovering dozens of old Tektronix 4050 series tapes and >>> found >>> one with Fast Graphics software for the 4051. This software program >>> jumped >>> into 6800 assembly code and retrieved three bytes per vector from a tape >>> file. Apparently this tape is a duplicate - and it appears that all the >>> files bigger than 1KB have corrupt data. >>> >>> Apparently from the 4014 programmers guide - they had a set of demo >>> picture >>> files including a list with R2-D2. >>> >>> I have found Jos Dreesen's ftp tar file with some 4014 pictures - but I'm >>> looking for an R2-D2 picture file that is on the tape I have but corrupt. >>> >>> I also discovered that Tektronix made a 4052/4054 R12 Graphics >>> Enhancement >>> ROM pack which included the Fast Graphics program in ROM. I would love >>> to >>> find one of those ROM packs - hint/hint :) >>> >>> I did recover one of the shorter picture files of Snoopy - but since I >>> don't have a 4051, I can't run the Fast Graphics program on my 4052 or >>> 4054. One of my buddies threw a C program together to convert the data >>> file into Tek 4050 PRINT statements. >>> >>> I've posted the SNOOPY basic program and screenshots of running it on >>> vcfed >>> in a new thread: >>> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64726-Tektronix-40 >>> 51-4052-4052A-4054-4054A-Program-Archives >>> >>> I'm also still looking for a 4051/4052 Display Board. Mike Haas posted >>> pictures here in Oct 2016 of lots of Tektronix boards including a Display >>> Board - but I don't have any direct contact info for him. >>> >>> Monty >>> >>> >> -- >> Vintage computers and electronics >> www.dvq.com >> www.tekmuseum.com >> www.decmuseum.org >> >> > From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Jul 19 14:36:27 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 15:36:27 -0400 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> >> A very big and expensive door stopper without OS tapes. >> But most importantly: the CPU board is missing! >> The card in slot 2 appears to be an additional SIO card. >> >> This is a model 20, quite low-end. We have a model 32 (much rarer, I >> haven't found anyone else with a model 32), but it is non-functional >> because I have no tapes. The SMD disk has too many errors to recover a >> functional system. >> > > There's a Model 31 at LCM+L (used to be mine). If anyone ever does recover > media for these things, it'd be nice to get it running... > > - Josh VCF has one but I'm not sure which model it is. I can check next week. We also have some tapes, again, I don't know which ones. From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Jul 19 17:14:24 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 19 Jul 2018 18:14:24 -0400 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The modems and 386 would be on-topic for VCF consignment, but I don't think the scanners, etc. would be .... we don't want it to become the Vintage Generic PC Crap Festival. :) On 07/19/2018 05:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > Laserjet IIP printers? > > Parallel port and/or SCSI flatbed scanners?? (home office, NOT > professional) > > Oversized PC cases with MANY drive bays? > > Generic 386? PCs? > > > Is it worth even hauling that kinda stuff to VCF? > From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 02:09:02 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 02:09:02 -0500 Subject: VCFMW drop offs, pick ups, visits Message-ID: I'm looking forward to seeing everyone going to VCFMW. I'm going to try to go up Friday and leave late Saturday. It's always great when people swing by the house, but try to give me some warning, especially with me going up Friday. I hope to have a path dug into my last 25 foot storage unit and retrieve a ton of micro-Vax II parts along with a ton of other items. I still have a few 3000 alphas, about 10 3100s, a few 4000s, 5000s, 6 or so BA11-N (11/03L/23) boxes, BA23s, LA120s, and 1000's of other parts. Also some REMEX interfaces and a bunch of paper tape readers and maybe punches I'm getting tired of looking at. Please contact me off list if you have any requests or questions. Feel free to send me wish lists. Thanks, Paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 08:20:21 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 09:20:21 -0400 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: IIRC that was one of the first donations to our club back in 2005 On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 1:04 AM Evan Koblentz via cctech < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > >> A very big and expensive door stopper without OS tapes. > >> But most importantly: the CPU board is missing! > >> The card in slot 2 appears to be an additional SIO card. > >> > >> This is a model 20, quite low-end. We have a model 32 (much rarer, I > >> haven't found anyone else with a model 32), but it is non-functional > >> because I have no tapes. The SMD disk has too many errors to recover a > >> functional system. > >> > > > > There's a Model 31 at LCM+L (used to be mine). If anyone ever does > recover > > media for these things, it'd be nice to get it running... > > > > - Josh > > VCF has one but I'm not sure which model it is. I can check next week. > We also have some tapes, again, I don't know which ones. > From lproven at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 08:47:16 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 15:47:16 +0200 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2018 at 00:30, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I'm not healthy enough (last year I had another TURP surgery *Googles* *Winces _hard_* I'm in for surgery next week myself. They're going to try to stop my left arm from falling off. Snag is... I'm left handed. And I'm in Prague and I don't speak Czech worth a damn. Summary: :-( :'( Anyway. Want me to mention your list of stuff on the FB Vintage Computer Club? Either anonymoulsy or via a spamtrap of your choice... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Fri Jul 20 09:30:19 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 07:30:19 -0700 Subject: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: <164b4bc2c39-c8e-15bdf@webjas-vad183.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <001901d42036$306894b0$9139be10$@net> > My first 5150 started life with the white switch black power supply. > A decade ago, the college dumpstered the collection of one of my > colleagues; besides IMSAI, ProcTech, N*, he had had a few dozen clean > 5150s and 5170s, including several of the "gold-badge" 5170s. Fred, I've never heard of a 5170 w/ a gold badge or a 5150 w/ a white switch. I have a very early 5150 (model A if you prefer) which according to SN is one of the first 2500 produced and that one has a red switch. Do you by any chance have the SN on yours handy? p.s. what did the gold badge signify? -Ali From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 20 10:49:02 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 08:49:02 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/18 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: >> We also have some tapes, again, I don't know which ones. Be VERY careful with those if you find them. They are NOT QIC-compatible and the belts WILL be bad. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:06:08 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:06:08 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk>, Message-ID: <019501d42043$9264e350$b72ea9f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of dwight via cctalk > Sent: 19 July 2018 22:17 > To: Liam Proven ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... > > One thing that bothers me is the continued emphasis on arithmetic and not > on mathematics. The kids growing up today will rarely be more than a few > feet from a calculator. The first thing on the math test was the "No calculator > allowed". I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taught arithmetic but it should > be the minimum necessary to recreate a multiplication, square, divide or > what ever table. Knowing what 43 * 67 is on an exam is useless in > determining if the kid can learn calculus or understand how it relates to the > real world. All too often they put the numbers in blindly, mis-type, and get a silly answer...... They need enough to know that the answer to that calculation will be somewhere between 2400 and 3500 and probably be able to tell me its likely to be near 40 X 70... ... so take 43 + 5 * 67 ... well the windows calculator gives 3216 in standard mode and 378 in scientific mode.... > > About the hardest math a person might need to know how do do by > themselves it to figure the tip at a restaurant. And even then, if the cell > phone is charged it will do it for them. > > Dwight Dave > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 11:17:08 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:17:08 +0100 Subject: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... In-Reply-To: <019501d42043$9264e350$b72ea9f0$@gmail.com> References: <20180717123559.1659818C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20180717174309.2x55g4fxmeno2c6e@mooli.org.uk> <019501d42043$9264e350$b72ea9f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 5:06 PM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk On Behalf Of dwight via > cctalk >> Sent: 19 July 2018 22:17 >> To: Liam Proven ; General Discussion: On-Topic and >> Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: GoTEK SFR1M44-U100... >> >> One thing that bothers me is the continued emphasis on arithmetic and not >> on mathematics. The kids growing up today will rarely be more than a few >> feet from a calculator. The first thing on the math test was the "No > calculator >> allowed". I'm not saying that they shouldn't be taught arithmetic but it > should >> be the minimum necessary to recreate a multiplication, square, divide or >> what ever table. Knowing what 43 * 67 is on an exam is useless in >> determining if the kid can learn calculus or understand how it relates to > the >> real world. > > All too often they put the numbers in blindly, mis-type, and get a silly > answer...... Or quote far too many significant figures. I had an idiot who was asking for a resistor accurate to 8 significant figures or something. Turned out it was the series resistor for an LED.... As I said, an idiot... > They need enough to know that the answer to that calculation will be > somewhere > between 2400 and 3500 and probably be able to tell me its likely to be near > 40 X 70... > > ... so take 43 + 5 * 67 > ... well the windows calculator gives 3216 in standard mode and 378 in > scientific mode.... Or I'm debugging something. I measure the voltage across a resistor as 13.7V. A check with the schematic or the colour bands on the resistor shows it's a 1.5k Ohm one. So I think 'That means there's a little under 10mA flowing, is that reasonable?'. To have to stop, type the numbers into a calculator and get 9.13333..mA would take longer and not tell me anything more in most cases. -tony From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 12:18:15 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 12:18:15 -0500 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip Message-ID: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> Anyone got pinout/spec information for a MOS MCS2529? In particular, I'm curious about operating voltage. I acquired a Melcor SC-635 calculator yesterday and there seems to be some uncertainty about the output voltage of its (rechargeable) battery pack; some places say 2.4V, i.e. the pack is a pair of 1.2V cells, but others say 9V. 2.4V seems a little low to me for typical logic, but on the other hand I've seen a period ad which says that the external PSU was 9V - and so the rechargeable battery must have been somewhat less than that. cheers Jules From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jul 20 13:18:51 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 14:18:51 -0400 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> yes? would? take? one? or? 2....? Ed# In a message dated 7/19/2018 4:44:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? >> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? There's four or five. Next week, I'll check which sub-models. On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > On 07/19/2018 03:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > I'm finding that my interest in BBSing and other modem based communications > of the '80s & '90s is flaring again. > > As such, a pair of Courier's is on my list to acquire when it's convenient. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Jul 20 13:40:22 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:40:22 -0700 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-Jul-20, at 10:18 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > Anyone got pinout/spec information for a MOS MCS2529? In particular, I'm curious about operating voltage. I acquired a Melcor SC-635 calculator yesterday and there seems to be some uncertainty about the output voltage of its (rechargeable) battery pack; some places say 2.4V, i.e. the pack is a pair of 1.2V cells, but others say 9V. > > 2.4V seems a little low to me for typical logic, but on the other hand I've seen a period ad which says that the external PSU was 9V - and so the rechargeable battery must have been somewhat less than that. Rechargeable and 1.2V/cell would correlate to 2 NiCd cells, a not-unusual configuration for calculators of that period. Such units would typically use a simple built-in switching power supply to boost the battery voltage up to levels adequate for the logic and/or display. In the pic of the PCB board here: http://www.teclas.org/maquina.php?mm=C125 the chunky box component 'below' the IC is probably a switching PS module. It was also common to use simple resistive current limiting in the charge circuit for NiCds. In consequence, the voltage supplied by the external AC charger may be quite a bit higher than the battery voltage. It's possible that's where the 9V external spec comes from, if not just a mistake. Sometimes the current limiting R is in the external charger, sometimes it's in the calculator. Further, such designs also tended to rely on the battery to provide AC filtering & voltage regulation (limiting) of the charger V down to the battery V. If the battery/cells have been removed or are in really bad condition, operating the calc from the original external charger can result in too high a voltage being applied to the electronics. My usual procedure for such calcs is to cut out the NiCd cells (there is ~0 probability they are any good), noting the polarity. For testing, clip on a bench supply to substitute for the batteries, set of course to the appropriate V for the battery ( # of cells * V/cell ). If the batteries have already been removed and there are no polarity markings, let me know if you'd like some assistance trying to figure it out. If you want to power it through the charger jack, then you need to assess whether there is any internal charging circuitry (rectification, aforementioned current-limiting R, etc.) sitting between the jack and the cells. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 13:46:14 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 20:46:14 +0200 Subject: 68k development, Avocet Development Message-ID: hi does anyone happen to use Avocet Development Tools for m68k? how good/bad is it? From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 16:43:57 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:43:57 +0200 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: I have one model 21 and one model 11. Finch drive and ST506 drive respectively. Not sure about the status of disks, but I have a spare Finch drive. I also have three install tapes. One Sadie 3.5 and two ZEUS 3.21. When time permits I will read those. AJ Palmgren read a tape with a tar archive I made myself on this machine many years ago. The ouput I got from AJ was Saleae logic analyzer dumps. One per track read. He is using a quite standard Wangtek 5099 drive where he is able to control the head in more detail. Some dumps were from tracks which were spot on one of the tracks on the tape. Others were not a full hit. I had to test all of them. I created a small program that decoded the MFM data off the tracks. It processed gigabytes worth of samples. Checked the CRC and wrote it to file so I could recover the archieve. http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/others/zilog-s8000/extract-s8000-tapes Credits goes to AJ Palmgren for reading the tape and to David Gesswein from whom I stole and modified the MFM decoder. And as Al wrote: No it is not at all QIC. The drive has four fixed tracks and the encoding is MFM. /Mattis fredag 20 juli 2018 skrev Al Kossow via cctalk : > > > On 7/20/18 6:20 AM, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > > >> We also have some tapes, again, I don't know which ones. > > Be VERY careful with those if you find them. They are NOT > QIC-compatible and the belts WILL be bad. > > From dave at 661.org Fri Jul 20 18:30:09 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:30:09 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SDL and SunOS Message-ID: How feasable is it to compile and run SDL for SunOS? My main reason for doing this is to play Z-machine games on Sparcstations using Frotz (https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz) using the SDL interface to play V6 games. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From dave at 661.org Fri Jul 20 18:46:45 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 23:46:45 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 20 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > yes? would? take? one? or? 2....? Ed# > > > In a message dated 7/19/2018 4:44:02 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ? >>> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? > > > There's four or five. > Next week, I'll check which sub-models. > > > On Thu, 19 Jul 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> On 07/19/2018 03:51 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> Is there ANY interest in Courier 56K V.92 modems? >> >> I'm finding that my interest in BBSing and other modem based communications >> of the '80s & '90s is flaring again. >> >> As such, a pair of Courier's is on my list to acquire when it's convenient. I'd also be interested in a pair of Couriers, preferably of the V-Everything variety. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 20 19:57:31 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 17:57:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: There's now six requests for 4 or 5 modems. And I don't yet know which specific sub-models they are I may be able to get a look at them on Tuesday or Thursday. It is likely that they all work, but I will not guarantee them, nor even get around to testing them. I have some wall warts, but not sure how many. Is anybody familiar with the firmware upgrade aspects of the different models? It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. Except for the scanners. . . . and probably deskjet and dot matrix printers. But, I will respect Evan's wishes, and be selective about what I haul to VCF; I don't want to bring anything back. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Fri Jul 20 20:49:11 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 18:49:11 -0700 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 07/20/2018 05:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Is anybody familiar with the firmware upgrade aspects of the different > models? I gave away three of the things last year--a "dual standard"; a "Courier V.92 (or something" and the latest "V. everything" one. There were firmware upgrades for the first two, but IIRC, they also involved an SRAM upgrade. There was an upgrade for the V.Everything, that was download and flash (i.e. no replacement ICs). --Chuck From mtapley at swri.edu Fri Jul 20 21:21:14 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 02:21:14 +0000 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 20, 2018, at 7:57 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > There's now six requests for 4 or 5 modems. ... That is a little scary. I will hunt for modems in my boxes, and post if I can find them. They will be available, but I?m sure I didn?t get any Couriers. > It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. > Except for the scanners. > . . . and probably deskjet and dot matrix printers. Actually, I have a reasonable collection of Stylewriters that I?d swap for an Imagewriter. I wouldn't consider that a good bargain for the previous Imagewriter owner, but in case anyone is looking to ?trade up??. All this (that I can find) in San Antonio, Texas. - Mark From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 20 21:26:54 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 19:26:54 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/18 2:43 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > And as Al wrote: ?No it is not at all QIC. The drive has four fixed tracks and the encoding is MFM.? These 4-track fixed-head drives were common drives prior to the invention of movable head devices. TI used them in 990 systems as well as early 80 companies like Onyx and in particular DSD, which used the Kennedy 6455 of which I have several out of the DSDs with good capstans that I had hoped to try recovering the TI and other carts on. I have two Zeus carts: f77 src & lib src tape zeus 3.21 games executable & virg game src zeus 5.1 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 22:57:43 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 04:57:43 +0100 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:40 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > If you want to power it through the charger jack, then you need to assess > whether there is any internal charging circuitry (rectification, aforementioned > current-limiting R, etc.) sitting between the jack and the cells. It is not uncommon for the NiCd cells to act as a shunt regulator in such calculators. The charger is of relatively high voltage (say around 9V), it is applied to the cells through a current limiter (often just a simple resistor as you say), and the fact that the on-charge voltage of the cells is perhaps 2.5V (for a pair of NiCds) limits the voltage applied to the rest of the calculator. What this means is that if you connect the charger with no cells in place then either 1) Nothing will work as the charger circuit can't supply enough current to power the calculator 2) Nothing will work ever again as the voltage across the battery terminals with no cells to clamp the voltage is sufficiently high to damage the IC. The latter is a particular problem in some calculators with continuous memory (meaning the memory is powered from the battery even when the machine is turned off). Connecting the charger to one of those with no battery in place will damage ICs even if the machine is not turned on. -tony > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Jul 20 23:07:10 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 05:07:10 +0100 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 3:26 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/20/18 2:43 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >> And as Al wrote: No it is not at all QIC. The drive has four fixed tracks and the encoding is MFM. > > These 4-track fixed-head drives were common drives prior to the invention of movable head devices. TI used them in 990 I seem to remember the original QIC11 standard was (or at least included) a 4 track version. And the later 9 track format kept those 4 tracks in the same place and put 5 more, one on each side and 3 between them if you see what I mean. So unless you need to read 2 tracks simultaneously (e.g. becuase it uses the encoded where a pulse on one track is a '0', a pulse on the other is a '1' and pulses on both together are a marker) you can probably get the data off the tape with a raw 4 track or 9 track drive and a custom controller. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 01:16:38 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 08:16:38 +0200 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: > > I seem to remember the original QIC11 standard was (or at least included) a > 4 track version. And the later 9 track format kept those 4 tracks in the > same > place and put 5 more, one on each side and 3 between them if you see what > I mean. > > So unless you need to read 2 tracks simultaneously (e.g. becuase it uses > the > encoded where a pulse on one track is a '0', a pulse on the other is a '1' > and > pulses on both together are a marker) you can probably get the data off > the tape > with a raw 4 track or 9 track drive and a custom controller. That didn't work when AJ read my S8000 tapes at least. Some of the tracks had to be read a few stepper motor steps off the nominal track to give a good read. And I did the decoding in software. No custom conroller hardware. /Mattis > > -tony > From wayne.sudol at hotmail.com Fri Jul 20 17:24:48 2018 From: wayne.sudol at hotmail.com (Wayne S) Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 22:24:48 +0000 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com>, Message-ID: Here's a link to the instruction manual. http://www.wass.net/manuals/Melcor%20SC-635.pdf Note that it says to have the battery in place if you want to run it off the external ac adaptor. Sent from my iPhone On Jul 20, 2018, at 14:06, Brent Hilpert via cctalk > wrote: On 2018-Jul-20, at 10:18 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: Anyone got pinout/spec information for a MOS MCS2529? In particular, I'm curious about operating voltage. I acquired a Melcor SC-635 calculator yesterday and there seems to be some uncertainty about the output voltage of its (rechargeable) battery pack; some places say 2.4V, i.e. the pack is a pair of 1.2V cells, but others say 9V. 2.4V seems a little low to me for typical logic, but on the other hand I've seen a period ad which says that the external PSU was 9V - and so the rechargeable battery must have been somewhat less than that. Rechargeable and 1.2V/cell would correlate to 2 NiCd cells, a not-unusual configuration for calculators of that period. Such units would typically use a simple built-in switching power supply to boost the battery voltage up to levels adequate for the logic and/or display. In the pic of the PCB board here: http://www.teclas.org/maquina.php?mm=C125 the chunky box component 'below' the IC is probably a switching PS module. It was also common to use simple resistive current limiting in the charge circuit for NiCds. In consequence, the voltage supplied by the external AC charger may be quite a bit higher than the battery voltage. It's possible that's where the 9V external spec comes from, if not just a mistake. Sometimes the current limiting R is in the external charger, sometimes it's in the calculator. Further, such designs also tended to rely on the battery to provide AC filtering & voltage regulation (limiting) of the charger V down to the battery V. If the battery/cells have been removed or are in really bad condition, operating the calc from the original external charger can result in too high a voltage being applied to the electronics. My usual procedure for such calcs is to cut out the NiCd cells (there is ~0 probability they are any good), noting the polarity. For testing, clip on a bench supply to substitute for the batteries, set of course to the appropriate V for the battery ( # of cells * V/cell ). If the batteries have already been removed and there are no polarity markings, let me know if you'd like some assistance trying to figure it out. If you want to power it through the charger jack, then you need to assess whether there is any internal charging circuitry (rectification, aforementioned current-limiting R, etc.) sitting between the jack and the cells. From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Jul 21 02:18:59 2018 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 00:18:59 -0700 Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <74257662-3b1a-d7e4-9836-1cfca672346e@snowmoose.com> What vintage SPARCstations and what version of SunOS? Are you talking about BSD SunOS or Solaris? On 7/20/18 4:30 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > How feasable is it to compile and run SDL for SunOS?? My main reason > for doing this is to play Z-machine games on Sparcstations using Frotz > (https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz) using the SDL interface to > play V6 games. > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Jul 21 04:26:34 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 10:26:34 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: References: <164b8ea7302-c8d-1e420@webjas-vaa036.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <01QV4PQ01UA00011OG@beyondthepale.ie> > > It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. > Except for the scanners. > The scanners shouldn't have to be regarded as (Vintage) Generic PC Crap. For example, I wrote a hack for the (possibly un-aptly named) SANE scanner software to let it drive a SCSI scanner from VAX/VMS... (I wouldn't mind having another SCSI scanner to play with if it wasn't on the wrong side of the Atlantic.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jacob.ritorto at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 06:48:10 2018 From: jacob.ritorto at gmail.com (Jacob Ritorto) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 07:48:10 -0400 Subject: Tektronix 4113 Message-ID: Any interest in a Tek 4113 terminal (minus display)? I have one collecting dust here and would like to trade for older Tek restoration help / other pdp11 stuff. The keyboard is damaged but otherwise it's just old and dirty, haven't opened it up. Located in western Pennsylvania. thx jake From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 21 10:05:56 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 08:05:56 -0700 Subject: Tektronix 4113 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <44dfb1f4-3c09-1000-d2f7-9fff432e44e8@bitsavers.org> Before it goes away, could you take pictures of the circuit boards and dump the firmware? These are pretty rare, documentation even rarer. Richard at the computer graphics museum http://computergraphicsmuseum.org/ may be interested. https://terminals-wiki.org/wiki/index.php/Tektronix_4113 On 7/21/18 4:48 AM, Jacob Ritorto via cctalk wrote: > Any interest in a Tek 4113 terminal (minus display)? I have one collecting > dust here and would like to trade for older Tek restoration help / other > pdp11 stuff. The keyboard is damaged but otherwise it's just old and > dirty, haven't opened it up. Located in western Pennsylvania. > > thx > jake > From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 10:14:00 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 17:14:00 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? Message-ID: hi yesterday I was shocked by a couple of videos on Youtube where guys pointed out their negative experiences with CD ROM and DVD RAM as media for their own backup. They complained their data completely lost after 5 years of storage in CD ROMs, pointing out that their CDs were perfectly conserved and kept clean without scratches, but all the data is gone lost since the media is unreadable. This is what they said in the video. I have a lot of backup here stored in CDs, and I have recently bought an SCSI DVDRAM unit to create new backups in caddies DVD-RAMs (of 4.2Gbyte each) what is your experience? From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 21 10:25:01 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 08:25:01 -0700 Subject: zilog system 8000 In-Reply-To: References: <3cd27381-992f-0eb8-97c3-6f344ad50c6a@bitsavers.org> <37e9a341-0fba-e801-71c1-c85397d68d99@snarc.net> Message-ID: On 7/20/18 2:43 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Credits goes to AJ Palmgren for reading the tape and to David Gesswein from whom I stole and modified the MFM decoder.? > > And as Al wrote: ?No it is not at all QIC. The drive has four fixed tracks and the encoding is MFM.? > I hadn't looked at Al's page in a while, I see there was a long discussion of removing the gunk stuck to the surface from the belt, with no real solution. I need to do some more experiments with solvents on scratch tapes. From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 10:27:36 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:27:36 -0400 Subject: AIM 65 Cassette Test Program Message-ID: Hi all...I got the following through my web site. Does anyone have a good known-working test program for an AIM 65 cassette that I can attempt and or send in response? I still have to set mine up and attempt to reproduce, but someone here likely has more experience, it has been at least 5 years since I powered mine on. Also, the article this guy references from MICRO April 1979 volume 11 is not present in my copy of MICRO, he may be mistaken in his reference. I don't know what cassette program he is referencing. I do know that the cassette test program that comes in the Rockwell AIM 65 manual is in error, but I don't have the corrections. I also know that one needs the correct (optional otherwise) power lines when using cassette. Bill VintageComputer.net Inquiry - I am one of the founders of the Computer Museum in Basel (CMBB/CMGB). We have 2 AIM 65 units that seem functional. However, we're experiencing problems with the cassette drive when trying to read back. We tried to record using cassette recorders and also a modern PC through line in and the audio signals are clearly recognizable (from pin M). A connection to pin L and using the corrected program to test readback from "micro_11_apr_1979_text_syn_read_program_AIM65.pdf" only displays the "N" on either AIM 65 system. The cassette interface potentiometers are sealed in one of the units by the manufacturer and have never been changed as far as we can tell. Is there anything we could try to get reading from tape to work? We are running our of ideas. Is there any way to visualize the incoming signal through a small program other than the one from the magazine? From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 11:29:52 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:29:52 -0500 Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > How feasable is it to compile and run SDL for SunOS?? My main reason > for doing this is to play Z-machine games on Sparcstations using Frotz > (https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz) using the SDL interface to > play V6 games Under SunOS 4.1.4, the last gcc version that is supported is 3.3.6, but I haven't been able to build it on an IPX;? it gets to the point where it starts running gengtype and eats all memory available (I have 64MB RAM and have added as much as 1024 swap and it still crashes).? So, for the time being I am still at the gcc 2.95.3 level in this particular sun4c machine.? In order to build 2.95.3, I had to bootstrap 2.8.1 using the cc that comes by default in the SunOS 4.1.4 install CD. Under Solaris 2.6, the last supported? gcc version is 4.3.6, which I did manage to build in a sun4m Sparcstation 5 machine with 144MB of RAM. It is pretty hard to build modern software with 2.95.3.? It is mostly C89 compliant, but not C98.? So...? I think that you stand a chance to build SDL under Solaris, but not under SunOS 4.1.4.? And, for Solaris 2.6, there are still some mirrors of the old Sunfreeware archive with many usable ports.? The SunOS 4.1.4 situation is rather different, as there are hardly any pre-compiled binaries around. Carlos. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sat Jul 21 11:30:33 2018 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 18:30:33 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20180721163032.e66jrc5oa5dyzihm@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 05:14:00PM +0200, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: [...] > They complained their data completely lost after 5 years of storage in CD > ROMs, pointing out that their CDs were perfectly conserved and kept clean > without scratches, but all the data is gone lost since the media is > unreadable. The lack of scratches is a red herring. CDs and DVDs are expected to get scratched in normal use, and contain multiple levels of error-correcting codes to protect against it. Cleaning can scratch them, so don't bother until the discs are so filthy that the drive can't read them any more. Scratches along the track corrupt more bits than radial scratches, which is why you should clean them hole-to-rim rather than in a circular motion. (Ordinary) recordable discs contain light-sensitive dyes which are affected by UV. Some dyes are better than others, and some dyes are even so crap that they'll self-erase in time without UV. So if you buy really shonky cheap media and/or store it somewhere that's not lightproof, it'll become unreadable in a matter of *months*. > I have a lot of backup here stored in CDs, and I have recently bought an SCSI > DVDRAM unit to create new backups in caddies DVD-RAMs (of 4.2Gbyte each) > what is your experience? If it's a backup, long-term durability isn't too much of a concern since under normal circumstances you will never perform a restore, and you should be backing-up often enough that there will be multiple copies anyway. If you are making an archive copy for long-term storage, buy two different brands of good-quality media, burn a copy to each, *verify them*, and then store them in multiple locations in a lightsafe container. Ideally, re-copy the discs every five years or so to make sure. Counterintuitively, DVD-R is more durable than the less-dense CD-R; I'm utterly unimpressed with my BD-R experience, finding that some disks were unreadable after mere days. For my backups, I just use whatever external USB drive is the cheapest at the time. I have too much data that chopping it into 4.7GB chunks and swapping discs is just impractical. From couryhouse at aol.com Sat Jul 21 11:49:48 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 12:49:48 -0400 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164bdbf4d2e-c98-15f3f@webjas-vab060.srv.aolmail.net> orig? ?first model? hp scanjet? worth saving! Ed# www.smecc.org ? In a message dated 7/20/2018 7:21:25 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. > Except for the scanners. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 21 11:58:33 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 09:58:33 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> On 07/21/2018 08:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > what is your experience? Generally very good. But then, my valuable stuff on CD-R was done on MAM-A (Mitsui) "gold" media. Some of it is 20+ years old. On the other hand, no CD-RW disk that still have has survived. My experience with DVD-R has been somewhat variable. --Chuck From jim.manley at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 12:26:00 2018 From: jim.manley at gmail.com (Jim Manley) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:26:00 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: The stability of the dyes is only part of the problem. Even mass-produced read-only optical media (e.g., movie/video content DVDs) can become unreadable over time because the reflective layer (typically aluminum) under the data-encoded layer corrodes due to the chemistry of the dyes and encasing plastic, and heat accelerates the process. The "gold" media may have enough of a protective layer of that noble metal (it's obviously not solid gold) that corrosion doesn't occur - only a few atoms' thickness is required. On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 10:58 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 07/21/2018 08:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > > what is your experience? > > Generally very good. But then, my valuable stuff on CD-R was done on > MAM-A (Mitsui) "gold" media. Some of it is 20+ years old. On the other > hand, no CD-RW disk that still have has survived. > > My experience with DVD-R has been somewhat variable. > > --Chuck > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 13:37:59 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 20:37:59 +0200 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg What kind of board is this? It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both unibuses in the machine. Better ideas? Documentation? /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Jul 21 13:52:33 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:52:33 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 7/21/18 10:26 AM, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > Even mass-produced > read-only optical media (e.g., movie/video content DVDs) can become > unreadable over time because the reflective layer (typically aluminum) > under the data-encoded layer corrodes due to the chemistry of the dyes and > encasing plastic, and heat accelerates the process. The edge of the disk is SUPPOSED to be sealed. On cheap media, you see it oozing, and the aluminum oxidizing from the edge inward. This was pointed out to me already in the late 90's. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 21 13:55:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:55:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: Longevity has always been an issue. (and we already know that 8" floppies outlast 3.5") Does anybody here have experience with "M-Disc"? It is available up to 100GB BDXL! Drives start at less than $100; media is prices vary - the 100GB starts at about $20 each, but the low capacity versions are bordering on competitive. The longevity claims are all extrapolations - turns out that nobody has ever ACTUALLY stored one for more than 30 years. If/when I can get a ride, I'd be glad to take one back to the sixties, to get a half-century test. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 21 13:58:37 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:58:37 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > The edge of the disk is SUPPOSED to be sealed. On cheap media, you see it > oozing, and the aluminum oxidizing from the edge inward. This was pointed > out to me already in the late 90's. Fortunately, unlike most spinning rust disks, the default is to start at the center and work out. Therefore, discs that are not full will last a little longer. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 21 14:04:10 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 12:04:10 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, Jim Manley via cctalk wrote: > The stability of the dyes is only part of the problem. Even mass-produced > read-only optical media (e.g., movie/video content DVDs) can become > unreadable over time Hence the necessity of ANYDVD, or equivalent. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 14:25:57 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:25:57 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: what about MO? (magneto-optic disks) - WORM (write once, read many) - WMRM (write many, read many) and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) which of them lasts for the most? MO units and disks are a bit costly say >=50 euro for 4.5Gbyte R/W cartridge and say >=500 euro for the driver unit (SCSI) From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Jul 21 14:37:01 2018 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 12:37:01 -0700 Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> References: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> Message-ID: <506A5BDF-5C15-4C90-AD73-D9F2244943F8@eschatologist.net> On Jul 21, 2018, at 9:29 AM, Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk wrote: > > David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> How feasable is it to compile and run SDL for SunOS? My main reason for doing this is to play Z-machine games on Sparcstations using Frotz (https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz) using the SDL interface to play V6 games > Under SunOS 4.1.4, the last gcc version that is supported is 3.3.6, but I haven't been able to build it on an IPX; it gets to the point where it starts running gengtype and eats all memory available (I have 64MB RAM and have added as much as 1024 swap and it still crashes). So, for the time being I am still at the gcc 2.95.3 level in this particular sun4c machine. In order to build 2.95.3, I had to bootstrap 2.8.1 using the cc that comes by default in the SunOS 4.1.4 install CD. Under Solaris 2.6, the last supported gcc version is 4.3.6, which I did manage to build in a sun4m Sparcstation 5 machine with 144MB of RAM. I was able to build gcc 2.95.3 directly under SunOS 4.1.4 on a SPARCstation 20 with 512MB, it required one tweak to gcc/function.c in that I had to move a # to the first column. I tried to go up to gcc 3.3. but was similarly unsuccessful. Since I cared most about running code that I built, I considered building a cross-complier on modern Linux that targeted sun4m and using that to build against the headers and libraries copied off the SPARCstation. Unfortunately I had a really rough time building the tools and could never quite get them working. I suspect that was itself mainly due to the age of the tools I was trying to build; using modern tool binaries to build the last GPLv2 versions of the tools didn?t seem to work out so well. (I?m obligated not to go near the GPLv3 sources, so building anything newer?presuming there even were newer versions that could still target sun4m.) -- Chris From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 15:43:48 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 16:43:48 -0400 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: any identification number sn front or back? can tell from just that shot. On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 > > https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg > > What kind of board is this? > > It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. > > The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. > > My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both > unibuses in the machine. > > Better ideas? Documentation? > > /Mattis From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Jul 21 15:50:19 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 13:50:19 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > what about MO? (magneto-optic disks) > - WORM (write once, read many) > - WMRM (write many, read many) > and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) > which of them lasts for the most? > MO units and disks are a bit costly > say >=50 euro for 4.5Gbyte R/W cartridge > and say >=500 euro for the driver unit (SCSI) "M-Disc" has the longest longevity claims. 'course they're all extrapolation. In a thousand years, it will be obvious that they are exaggerated. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 16:12:10 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 23:12:10 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball Message-ID: hi I am looking for a ps/2 keyboard with a 3 buttons trackball I am currently using a Cherry's kb, but it has a built-in 2 buttons trackball and the software I need to use requires the third button to select items what do you suggest, guys? From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Jul 21 16:12:32 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 17:12:32 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I had a home CDR back when they were over $1000+ new. The media turned out to be very reliable (and I have a bunch with gold, blue, green dye) and it still readable as long as you didn't scratch the optical reflective layer. I also used a laser printed paper cover which probably kept air out. I think the media had better quality control when a single CDR was $8 a pop then with a spool that costs $20. DVD recordable media was error prone if you used DL disks. I only used CDRW media for short term moving of files so I don't know how well they do long term. I have a BDXL Blueray drive I barely use since anything I need to get at is either online on my server of offline on a tape of some kind (LTO mostly but some DAT and AIT as well). I have old IBM MO Worm disks that are still readable, same with all my MO disks (3.5" 130MB, 5.25" 1.3GB) but drives can be iffy. I would bet that MO media will outlast us all while finding a drive to read them will be a problem. -----Original Message----- From: Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 11:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? hi yesterday I was shocked by a couple of videos on Youtube where guys pointed out their negative experiences with CD ROM and DVD RAM as media for their own backup. They complained their data completely lost after 5 years of storage in CD ROMs, pointing out that their CDs were perfectly conserved and kept clean without scratches, but all the data is gone lost since the media is unreadable. This is what they said in the video. I have a lot of backup here stored in CDs, and I have recently bought an SCSI DVDRAM unit to create new backups in caddies DVD-RAMs (of 4.2Gbyte each) what is your experience? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 21 16:34:34 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 14:34:34 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <96a12c64-786a-cdba-6530-5ec4f14c3c77@sydex.com> On 07/21/2018 02:12 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > I have old IBM MO Worm disks that are still readable, same with all my > MO disks (3.5" 130MB, 5.25" 1.3GB) but drives can be iffy. I would bet > that MO media will outlast us all while finding a drive to read them > will be a problem. I've got a few old PMC Apex 4GB disks. I suspect that finding a working drive will be most difficult. Heaven knows, mine died years ago. --Chuck From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 16:43:13 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 23:43:13 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <96a12c64-786a-cdba-6530-5ec4f14c3c77@sydex.com> References: <96a12c64-786a-cdba-6530-5ec4f14c3c77@sydex.com> Message-ID: thus, MO drive units are not reliable? 2018-07-21 23:34 GMT+02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > On 07/21/2018 02:12 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > >> I have old IBM MO Worm disks that are still readable, same with all my >> MO disks (3.5" 130MB, 5.25" 1.3GB) but drives can be iffy. I would bet >> that MO media will outlast us all while finding a drive to read them >> will be a problem. > > I've got a few old PMC Apex 4GB disks. I suspect that finding a working > drive will be most difficult. Heaven knows, mine died years ago. > > --Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Jul 21 17:13:08 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 15:13:08 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <96a12c64-786a-cdba-6530-5ec4f14c3c77@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/21/2018 02:43 PM, Carlo Pisani wrote: > thus, MO drive units are not reliable? At least not the later PMC ones. I remember that my drive wasn't even 6 months old when it died. PMC's policy was to replace it with a "refurbished" (read: used) replacement. That one barely lasted a month. PMC then stated that their backlog on replacements was something like 12 weeks. I wrote the cost of the drive off and moved on. PMC ceased operation shortly thereafter. Mind you, I was using the drive only for testing, so fortunately no important data was stored there. I note that the southern California operation that bought the bankruptcy sale stock is still in operation and offers a refurb Apex drive for about $250 with a 30-day warranty. No Thanks. --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 17:54:07 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 17:54:07 -0500 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think it's Applied Computer Technologies, and I think they made cache and several other options. They were popular back in the day. I have a bunch of their boards here. Paul On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 > > https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg > > What kind of board is this? > > It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. > > The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. > > My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both > unibuses in the machine. > > Better ideas? Documentation? > > /Mattis > From dave at 661.org Sat Jul 21 19:01:22 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 00:01:22 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: <74257662-3b1a-d7e4-9836-1cfca672346e@snowmoose.com> References: <74257662-3b1a-d7e4-9836-1cfca672346e@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, Alan Perry via cctalk wrote: > On 7/20/18 4:30 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> How feasable is it to compile and run SDL for SunOS?? My main reason for >> doing this is to play Z-machine games on Sparcstations using Frotz >> (https://gitlab.com/DavidGriffith/frotz) using the SDL interface to play V6 >> games. > What vintage SPARCstations and what version of SunOS? Are you talking about > BSD SunOS or Solaris? The SPARCstations in question are the IPX (with PowerUP), 5, and 20. The version of SunOS is 4.1.4. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From henry.bnd at gmail.com Sat Jul 21 19:28:01 2018 From: henry.bnd at gmail.com (Henry Bond) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 01:28:01 +0100 Subject: Kenwood VC-1H SSTV communicator pricing request Message-ID: Hi Gang, I have a Kenwood communicator, I can't imagine many of these were sold in the UK, I have the box, manual, warranty card, data cable. It runs of four double As. Quite a weirdly niche gadget, if not strictly computers. Does anyone have an idea of what a good condition one of these is to buy? I doubt I've made base rate inflation with it mind. I'll email photos for anyone interested in seeing either an SSTV image or the device itself. And yes, you'll need an amateur radio license to use it. Henry From pbirkel at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 01:36:13 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 02:36:13 -0400 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00e601d42186$49321420$db963c60$@gmail.com> ACT is parked on the upper-right under the handle. Several variants of "10003" are marked near the left handle. And it's copyrighted 1976. ACT = ABLE Computer Technology. Their first product was PN 10001 (copyright 1976), the A.C.T. Univerter; see "Able_Univerter_Nov81.pdf" on Bitsavers. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/able/Able_Univerter_Nov81.pdf -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob Smith via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 4:44 PM To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 any identification number sn front or back? can tell from just that shot. On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 > > https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg > > What kind of board is this? > > It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. > > The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. > > My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both > unibuses in the machine. > > Better ideas? Documentation? > > /Mattis From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 01:41:22 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 01:41:22 -0500 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <00e601d42186$49321420$db963c60$@gmail.com> References: <00e601d42186$49321420$db963c60$@gmail.com> Message-ID: well, I was close..... they all sound alike with brain fog. I still have a bunch of it, some marked ACT, some ABLE. On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 1:36 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > ACT is parked on the upper-right under the handle. > Several variants of "10003" are marked near the left handle. > And it's copyrighted 1976. > > ACT = ABLE Computer Technology. > > Their first product was PN 10001 (copyright 1976), the A.C.T. Univerter; > see "Able_Univerter_Nov81.pdf" on Bitsavers. > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/able/Able_Univerter_Nov81.pdf > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bob > Smith via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 4:44 PM > To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 > > any identification number sn front or back? can tell from just that shot. > > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk > wrote: > > This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 > > > > https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg > > > > What kind of board is this? > > > > It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. > > > > The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. > > > > My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both > > unibuses in the machine. > > > > Better ideas? Documentation? > > > > /Mattis > > From teoz at neo.rr.com Sun Jul 22 01:56:07 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 02:56:07 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <96a12c64-786a-cdba-6530-5ec4f14c3c77@sydex.com> Message-ID: The last generation 5.25" 4.x GB MO drive was unreliable which is why they never went bigger I think. I have a bunch of 5.25" drives from a few makers and all work. -----Original Message----- From: Carlo Pisani via cctalk Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 5:43 PM To: Chuck Guzis ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? thus, MO drive units are not reliable? 2018-07-21 23:34 GMT+02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > On 07/21/2018 02:12 PM, TeoZ via cctalk wrote: > >> I have old IBM MO Worm disks that are still readable, same with all my >> MO disks (3.5" 130MB, 5.25" 1.3GB) but drives can be iffy. I would bet >> that MO media will outlast us all while finding a drive to read them >> will be a problem. > > I've got a few old PMC Apex 4GB disks. I suspect that finding a working > drive will be most difficult. Heaven knows, mine died years ago. > > --Chuck > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From mark at matlockfamily.com Sat Jul 21 21:01:11 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 21:01:11 -0500 Subject: AIM 65 Cassette Test Program Message-ID: <7BEF7674-41AA-4808-A4E4-9E4C9B40532D@MatlockFamily.com> Bill, I?m not familiar with the program they mention for the AIM65, but in Section 9 of the User?s manual on bitsavers is a good description of how to set up cassette recorders with the AIM65. If the recorder has a pause input the AIM65 can control the tape both during read and write. If two cassette tapes were available It could read assembly source code from one and write object to the other. (When the computer came with 1K Ram expandable to 4K you did stuff like that. On page 9-13 they do have two short test programs ?SYN Write? and ?SYN Read? that can be used to adjust record and playback volume as well as the VR1 pot on the AIM. If they are just looking for ways to save and load programs the best way was to utilize Teletype interface that is described on page 9-26. The described interface is for the current loop that ASR33?s had but that is pretty easy to change to RS232 with some external chips. With that interface 240 characters per second could be read or written. If you upgraded the RAM a bit with an external board the AIM was quite a nice 6502 development tool. I built a number of things with it. 1. Instrument to measure the stability of vegetable oils. (See ?Oil Stability Index?) This analytical method is still used today but with more modern systems. It used a ICL7109 12 bit A/D, 16 relays, a pen plotter, and a home built conductivity circuit with 32KB Ram with software burned to 2532 EPROMs. We wrote the source on a PDP-11/24 and loaded it into the AIM65 for local assembly and store to RAM. We used 2K Byte battery backed up RAM (MK48Z02B-25) on the AIM till debugged then burned an EPROM. 2. A data acquisition system for a Perkin Elmer AA / Graphite Furnace. 3. A converter to change 66.67 baud 6 bit ticker tape code to 9600 baud ASCII. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ticker_tape ) Believe or not there was one commodity exchange still transmitting their data in this format in the 1980s and Our PDP-11/44?s DZ11 interface could do 50,75,110 and higher baud but could read this data. This used a 6522 to generate 16 times the 66.67 baud and was fed to a UART to read it. 64 byte program, and 64 byte look-up table. 4. A remote monitor that provided video output, and RS232 data recording from 9 digital temperature meters. The meters were read by counting their clock pulses during the down slope of the dual slope meter allowing each meter to be read with three wires (Ground, Clock, Gate) that were switched with 74150 Chips. So I have found memories of the AIM65 and the last time I had it set up about 2 years ago it still ran fine. Mark Date: Sat, 21 Jul 2018 11:27:36 -0400 From: Bill Degnan To: cctech Subject: AIM 65 Cassette Test Program Hi all...I got the following through my web site. Does anyone have a good known-working test program for an AIM 65 cassette that I can attempt and or send in response? I still have to set mine up and attempt to reproduce, but someone here likely has more experience, it has been at least 5 years since I powered mine on. Also, the article this guy references from MICRO April 1979 volume 11 is not present in my copy of MICRO, he may be mistaken in his reference. I don't know what cassette program he is referencing. I do know that the cassette test program that comes in the Rockwell AIM 65 manual is in error, but I don't have the corrections. I also know that one needs the correct (optional otherwise) power lines when using cassette. Bill VintageComputer.net Inquiry - I am one of the founders of the Computer Museum in Basel (CMBB/CMGB). We have 2 AIM 65 units that seem functional. However, we're experiencing problems with the cassette drive when trying to read back. We tried to record using cassette recorders and also a modern PC through line in and the audio signals are clearly recognizable (from pin M). A connection to pin L and using the corrected program to test readback from "micro_11_apr_1979_text_syn_read_program_AIM65.pdf" only displays the "N" on either AIM 65 system. The cassette interface potentiometers are sealed in one of the units by the manufacturer and have never been changed as far as we can tell. Is there anything we could try to get reading from tape to work? We are running our of ideas. Is there any way to visualize the incoming signal through a small program other than the one from the magazine? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 22 08:22:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:22:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180722132225.49A0B18C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > ABLE Computer Technology. Their first product was PN 10001 ... the > A.C.T. Univerter This board is not shown in any of the Able brochures we have: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/able/brochures/ However, Able info is _very_ thin on the ground, now... Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jul 22 08:33:51 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:33:51 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > ... > and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) > > which of them lasts for the most? I don't know specifically. I do know that plain old audio tapes may fail -- I have perhaps 100 cassettes recorded in the 1970s. Most of them are fine, but essentially all of them that are Fuji brand have failed utterly. paul From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 10:52:55 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 08:52:55 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> On 07/22/2018 06:33 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) >> >> which of them lasts for the most? > > I don't know specifically. I do know that plain old audio tapes may fail -- I have perhaps 100 cassettes recorded in the 1970s. Most of them are fine, but essentially all of them that are Fuji brand have failed utterly. Half-inch open-reel tape at 1600 PE density. Should be good for 50 years at least. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Jul 22 11:11:35 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 11:11:35 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> On 07/22/2018 10:52 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/22/2018 06:33 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) >>> >>> which of them lasts for the most? >> I don't know specifically. I do know that plain old audio tapes may fail -- I have perhaps 100 cassettes recorded in the 1970s. Most of them are fine, but essentially all of them that are Fuji brand have failed utterly. > Half-inch open-reel tape at 1600 PE density. Should be good for 50 > years at least. > > Well, you are one of the experts in this, but it all depends on storage conditions. Also, the extended-length tapes were too thin, and suffered from creasing and print-through. Badly stored, and you can kiss your data goodbye in less than 5 years. Jon From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 12:25:14 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:25:14 +0200 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <00e501d42185$9dfc1f60$d9f45e20$@gmail.com> References: <00e501d42185$9dfc1f60$d9f45e20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: s?ndag 22 juli 2018 skrev Paul Birkel : > 26 bits (or 13 bits) doesn't make any sense on a 16-bit machine; makes > more sense as a high-speed I/O buffer. One can note that it is actually two different types of 1k chips. 16 chips are 94L415 and 10 chips are 93415. As far as I understand the L is the slower variant. This could mean that 16 bit data is in the L chips while the faster chips are used for a 10 bit cache tag. Maybe 8 address bits plus some valid bit and possibly a dirty bit? The switch is marked ON/OFF which could simply cache on/off. The handwritten label on the board says that it is not in use and should sit in slot 21. And of course those two I/O connectors don't belong on a cache. Those IO connectors are connected to two double height boards in 26 /27 AB. They are also made by ACT and contain a few TTL chips. So it pulls out some signals out of both Unibuses but 20 + 10 signals at most it not much of a complete bus so I wonder what kind of signals go there. > While odd to use slot 21 (Fastbus) for something other than memory I don't > know why a fast memory-mapped I/O channel couldn't go there. > Also note all of the signals employed on tabs C-D-E-F? > It may not even employ the Fastbus; just talk to Unibus B. > Unfortunately there's not much documentation for the MS11. > It seems likely that A-B isn't anything like the usual Unibus signals, and > who knows where the Fastbus signals are routed. > On my backplane D-E are essentially unused whereas A-B-F are busiest. > > I see the marking "copyrighted 1976", which is rather earlier than the ACT > / ABLE documentation online. > > From Bitsavers see the ABLE documents for the SCAT/45: > Able_Computer_Product_Summary.pdf - page 3 > Able_Computer_Product_Brochures_1982.pdf - pages 16-17 > > The PN 10003 doesn't seem to match anything documented from ACT, however > it's consistent with them. > The original QBus Univerter is PN 10001, and is dated 1976. There are some documentation to get with the machine so the manual for the board might turn up. > > What are the pair of DIP24 ICs on the lower-left? Fairchild 9308 Dual 4 bit latches. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Anderson via cctalk > Sent: Saturday, July 21, 2018 6:54 PM > To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 > > I think it's Applied Computer Technologies, and I think they made cache > and several other options. They were popular back in the day. I have a > bunch of their boards here. > > Paul > > On Sat, Jul 21, 2018 at 1:37 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > This board was sitting in slot 21 of the backplane in a 11/45 > > > > https://i.imgur.com/ZYWZQCo.jpg > > > > What kind of board is this? > > > > It has 26 bipolar RAMS. Fairchild 93415 1kbit SRAM. > > > > The manufacturer might be ACT whatever that is. > > > > My guess is that it is some kind of cache board? It is connected to both > > unibuses in the machine. > > > > Better ideas? Documentation? > > > > /Mattis > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 22 12:54:25 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 13:54:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory Message-ID: <20180722175425.F05DF18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mark Matlock > With the 11/83 the position of the memory board ... above the CPU uses > PMI Yes, through the C-D interconnect; described in detail here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/CD_interconnect#Use_by_PMI The 'above' is because the CD interconnect is not a true bus, it only interconnected pairs of slots. > In the 11/84 the CPU is above the MSV11-JE memory The PMI is still on the CD connector in this machine, but the PMI is wired as a true bus on the backplane, allowing that ordering. > there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the Unibus map board, would it > be possible to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot > (not the PMI side of the slot) and have it able to DMA into the > MSV11-JE? It is speculated that this should be possible, but there are jumpers on the backplane you'd need to pull. See the writeup here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/84#QBUS_slots Noel From carlojpisani at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 13:06:24 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 20:06:24 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: thus DDS4, LTO2, DLT: which is the best tape? 2018-07-22 18:11 GMT+02:00 Jon Elson via cctalk : > On 07/22/2018 10:52 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> >> On 07/22/2018 06:33 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>> ... >>>> and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) >>>> >>>> which of them lasts for the most? >>> >>> I don't know specifically. I do know that plain old audio tapes may fail >>> -- I have perhaps 100 cassettes recorded in the 1970s. Most of them are >>> fine, but essentially all of them that are Fuji brand have failed utterly. >> >> Half-inch open-reel tape at 1600 PE density. Should be good for 50 >> years at least. >> >> > Well, you are one of the experts in this, but it all depends on storage > conditions. Also, the extended-length tapes were too thin, and suffered > from creasing and print-through. Badly stored, and you can kiss your data > goodbye in less than 5 years. > > Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 22 13:07:28 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 14:07:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180722180728.A7C7C18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Birkel > Unfortunately there's not much documentation for the MS11. ??? We're actually pretty well off, there; we have: - MS11 Maintenance Manual (DEC-11-HMSAA-D-D) - MS11 MOS Memory Troubleshooting Guide (DEC-11-HMSTS-A-D) - MS11-B Engineering Drawings About all we're missing are the MS11-A/C data board engineering drawings. (The control board is in the MS11-B prints.) > From: Mattis Lind > This could mean that 16 bit data is in the L chips while the faster > chips are used for a 10 bit cache tag. Sounds plausible. > And of course those two I/O connectors don't belong on a cache. > ... > Those IO connectors are connected to two double height boards in 26 /27 > AB. They are also made by ACT and contain a few TTL chips. If the board is a cache, how does it get filled? It would have to listen to the UNIBUS the memory is on. So I'm guessing that's that those connectors and boards are for. Note that there has to be a signal from FastBus (anyone know the correct capitalization for that?) which tells the CPU if the MS11 has a given address or not (given the way the MS11 can be configured as to size and address), so the cache board could use that line to tell the CPU whether or not the location in question is in the cache. Noel From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Jul 22 13:26:12 2018 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 13:26:12 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Hitachi Seiki Micon16-II Message-ID: Good arvo all; A family member recently purchased a rather large CNC which uses a Micon16-II system (as well as a Fanuc 15M) to drive it. Unfortunately the battery for the RAM died during storage prior to him getting it and all of the ladder logic is gone. We'd really love to try and find some kind of technical manual for the 16-II, or anything really, to assist in talking with the machine and interrogating it's state. We have a copy of the missing ladder logic in paper form so we're not totally out of luck, but the ability to enter it in segments rather in one 40 hour slog might be nice. If anyone has anything easily sharable we'd very much appreciate the assistance; Thank you. - JP From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 14:12:30 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 12:12:30 -0700 Subject: Semi-OT: Hitachi Seiki Micon16-II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8d889703-403c-5965-46fd-e10babedf6b6@sydex.com> Over on the CNCZone forum, there's a user, John, whose ID is shas595 who seems to know just about everything about these units and is willing to help. You might want to drop him a line. --Chuck On 07/22/2018 11:26 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: > > Good arvo all; > > A family member recently purchased a rather large CNC which uses a > Micon16-II system (as well as a Fanuc 15M) to drive it. Unfortunately > the battery for the RAM died during storage prior to him getting it and > all of the ladder logic is gone. > > We'd really love to try and find some kind of technical manual for the > 16-II, or anything really, to assist in talking with the machine and > interrogating it's state. We have a copy of the missing ladder logic in > paper form so we're not totally out of luck, but the ability to enter it > in segments rather in one 40 hour slog might be nice. > > If anyone has anything easily sharable we'd very much appreciate the > assistance; > > Thank you. > > ?- JP > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 14:17:57 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 14:17:57 -0500 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> Message-ID: <569b97a7-e323-3a16-19b6-aa629b5f4f09@gmail.com> On 07/20/2018 10:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It is not uncommon for the NiCd cells to act as a shunt regulator in such > calculators. The charger is of relatively high voltage (say around 9V), it is > applied to the cells through a current limiter (often just a simple resistor as > you say), and the fact that the on-charge voltage of the cells is perhaps 2.5V > (for a pair of NiCds) limits the voltage applied to the rest of the calculator. Thanks, all - that does seem to be the case here, supply via the external jack just runs through a 39 ohm resistor and then hooks straight to the +ve battery terminal, with no other 'magic' involved. From there, the entire calculator is switched via the on/off switch on the keypad, i.e. there's no standby power. The switch is good, and I've reseated the display and MOS IC, but without any signs of life when feeding it 2.4V via the battery terminals. The three electrolytics in it are all reading low on my multimeter - I generally question the accuracy of that somewhat, but as it's quick and easy (and they're over 40 years old) I'll probably try replacing those. One thing possibly of note - while I strongly suspect that the 4-pin Astec module is generating some necessary voltages from the battery, the MOS MCS2529 and the pair of ITT 510-5N display ICs that are in the machine both receive battery voltage to various pins (pin 28 on the MOS and pins 1 and 16 on the ITT's). That makes me wonder if the battery pack voltage isn't supposed to be higher (perhaps around the 4.5V mark) - but obviously I'm reluctant to increase battery voltage if there's actually some other fault that's preventing things from working. cheers Jules From mark at matlockfamily.com Sun Jul 22 07:47:56 2018 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 07:47:56 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory Message-ID: <549E7DDF-8B84-48FE-B88E-97529D8F2B84@MatlockFamily.com> The PDP-11/84 uses the M8190 CPU that is also used in a PDP-11/83. The 11/83 and 11/84 use PMI Memory but the 11/83 also can use Q22 memory. With the 11/83 the position of the memory board (assuming one is using the MSV11-JD or JE) above the CPU uses PMI and below the CPU in the backplane uses Q22. In the 11/84 the CPU is above the MSV11-JE memory but the CPU only uses PMI to talk to memory. diagrams in the Unibus processor handbook indicate that the M8191 Unibus map board only communicates through the PMI bus to both memory and to the CPU. Now my question is, there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the Unibus map board, would it be possible to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot (not the PMI side of the slot) and have it able to DMA into the MSV11-JE? If so then something like an Emulex UC07 and a SCSI2SD card could make a cost effective disk solution, since Unibus SCSI controllers are so expensive. Mark From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Jul 22 14:32:46 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:32:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180722193246.E853418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > We're actually pretty well off, there; we have: > - MS11 Maintenance Manual (DEC-11-HMSAA-D-D) > - MS11 MOS Memory Troubleshooting Guide (DEC-11-HMSTS-A-D) > - MS11-B Engineering Drawings There's also a little bit about the MS11-C (not covered in the documents above) in EK-11045-MM-007. There is a later rev of the MS11 manuals, which does cover the MS11-C; Chuck McManis had both of them: EK-MS11A-MM-006 MS11-A,B,C memory systems maintenance manual EK-MS11A-OP-001 MS11-A,B,C memory systems users's manual but when I contacted him about them a while back, he wasn't sure if he still had them, or if he'd given them to Al K to scan and put up (he was on the road at the time, so couldn't check if he still had them). Al, are they in your queue somewhere? (No rush to do them, if so; I just want to make sure we know where they are.) > If the board is a cache, how does it get filled? It would have to listen > to the UNIBUS the memory is on. ... Note that there has to be a signal > from FastBus ... which tells the CPU if the MS11 has a given address or > not ... so the cache board could use that line to tell the CPU whether > or not the location in question is in the cache. Studying the MS11 Maint Manual, the MS11 controller has access to the full address and data from both the CPU (FastBus) and UNIBUS B. (The FastBus actually has two uni-directional data busses; in and out.) So all that info, this hypothetical cache board can get from the slot it is plugged into (assuming the cache is plugged into one of the controller slots), over its connector pins. The connectors on the back of the card, and two small boards, must be for listening to UNIBUS A (in configurations in which the two UNIBI aren't joined together)? (I'm too lazy to check the slot numbers are see what they actually are.) And there is indeed a signal which the MS11 uses to tell the CPU it has the location the CPU is asking for, so it's theoretically possible to build a cache card that plugs into a FastBus slot. Noel From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 14:35:00 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:35:00 -0300 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: <569b97a7-e323-3a16-19b6-aa629b5f4f09@gmail.com> References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> <569b97a7-e323-3a16-19b6-aa629b5f4f09@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-07-22 4:17 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > On 07/20/2018 10:57 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> It is not uncommon for the NiCd cells to act as a shunt regulator in >> such >> calculators. The charger is of relatively high voltage (say around >> 9V), it is >> applied to the cells through a current limiter (often just a simple >> resistor as >> you say), and the fact that the on-charge voltage of the cells is >> perhaps 2.5V >> (for a pair of NiCds) limits the voltage applied to the rest of the >> calculator. > > Thanks, all - that does seem to be the case here, supply via the > external jack just runs through a 39 ohm resistor and then hooks > straight to the +ve battery terminal, with no other 'magic' involved. > From there, the entire calculator is switched via the on/off switch on > the keypad, i.e. there's no standby power. > > The switch is good, and I've reseated the display and MOS IC, but > without any signs of life when feeding it 2.4V via the battery > terminals. The three electrolytics in it are all reading low on my > multimeter - I generally question the accuracy of that somewhat, but > as it's quick and easy (and they're over 40 years old) I'll probably > try replacing those. > > One thing possibly of note - while I strongly suspect that the 4-pin > Astec module is generating some necessary voltages from the battery, > the MOS MCS2529 and the pair of ITT 510-5N display ICs that are in the > machine both receive battery voltage to various pins (pin 28 on the > MOS and pins 1 and 16 on the ITT's). That makes me wonder if the > battery pack voltage isn't supposed to be higher (perhaps around the > 4.5V mark) - but obviously I'm reluctant to increase battery voltage > if there's actually some other fault that's preventing things from > working. > > cheers > > Jules > While I don't believe I have seen a calculator that uses that particular chip, I have seen the inside of a few Commodore calculators that of course use MOS chips and a pair of ITT510-5N display driver chips seem to be the usual for them. ? My PR-100 have a small blue and white Astec module hanging on wires (AA4080 in my SR4190) in them that does indeed generate some other voltages used by the chips.? These calculators all have 3 NiCd cells in them if the batteries where already removed, you may get a clue from the shell how many cells it was designed for. Paul. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 22 15:01:45 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 16:01:45 -0400 Subject: any data on death of Mark E Rorvig? - Microcomputers in Libraries etc Message-ID: <164c39563e3-c8e-222eb@webjas-vad073.srv.aolmail.net> Mark E. Rorvig , Denton, associate professor of library and information sciences, 1995-2002. Rorvig was nationally recognized as a pioneer in the field of information retrieval. From 1990 to 1995, while serving as an adjunct professor at UNT, he worked as a computer engineer for NASA at the Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in Houston. His research focused on deciphering large amounts of information and finding new ways to piece it together. He produced four U.S. patents on information retrieval algorithms. Rorvig earned a bachelor's degree in English at Seattle University, a master's in library service from Columbia University and a doctorate in information studies from the University of California at Berkeley. At UNT, he led the master's program in information systems.any? ? one? know? him? I took? some? photos? for a? book he? did on microcomputers in libraries? and? took an into? to dp? class? from him? when I started? ?Computer Exchange in? AZ? ? ?I had? talked? ?into? course years? before? ?from someone else? but thought hey? good? to take it now things have changed and I am going into the biz! ? I talked to? him again? years? ago and? thanked? him? for admitting me? to an already? full class...but in looking him? up? to? get some data? from him? find? he? had? passed but? ?almost nothing out there....in the? way? of? info except? ?for the? brief? info in? google.? I? remember? ?during that? class period? I? got? first? pdp-8? m or? f ?? ?and? brought it into class and? showed? the students? how? I would? toggle it.... ? Funny? this is when I? got? to first? play on the HP2000 F I later to own? surplus? form the college that? shaped? my entire? future? business? ( still have it under glass at? SMECC) ? ? Having that? PDP 8 was? great? as a tty? tester!? Sold? many ttys? in the? early? days.... ? thanks? ed sharpe archivist for smecc ? From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 22 15:06:46 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 13:06:46 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> > On Jul 22, 2018, at 11:06 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > thus DDS4, LTO2, DLT: which is the best tape? I wouldn?t touch 4mm DAT tapes with a ten foot pole, if I can help it. I?ve used them in the past, but only in special cases, OR more importantly when forced to. You can?t buy new LTO2 or DLT drives (I think the last DLT drives were DLT8000?s). Even Super-DLT tapes are obsolete. At this point, for tape, I recommend LTO8, and if this is for Archival purposes, you?ll need to refresh to LTO9 when released. LTO8 introduces an evil little gotcha. While previous versions of the drives, have been able to read two versions back, LTO8 can?t. I?ve failed to see any reason behind your questions. If you?re looking for a long-term archival solution, look to cloud storage (either on-prem, or off-prem). Sure tape is cheap, but when you start looking at other costs, such as storage and handling, it becomes expensive. This touches on one of my personal projects this year. I virtualized my backup infrastructure for my OpenVMS systems, and then I went a step further, and have virtualized most of my OpenVMS environment. I still need to virtualize my DECnet area router. While all the data is moved, I?m still working to move some apps. It makes protecting my data easy. My primary interest is the OS and software, while in the past I?ve been focused on running on real hardware, virtualization is looking real nice, even for working systems where I have plenty of spares. Zane From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 15:14:28 2018 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:14:28 -0500 Subject: any data on death of Mark E Rorvig? - Microcomputers in Libraries etc In-Reply-To: <164c39563e3-c8e-222eb@webjas-vad073.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164c39563e3-c8e-222eb@webjas-vad073.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 3:01 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > Mark E. Rorvig , Denton, associate professor of library and information > sciences, 1995-2002. Rorvig was nationally recognized as a pioneer in the > field of information retrieval. From 1990 to 1995, while serving as an > adjunct professor at UNT, he worked as a computer engineer for NASA at the > Lyndon B. Johnson Space Center in Houston. His research focused on > deciphering large amounts of information and finding new ways to piece it > together. He produced four U.S. patents on information retrieval > algorithms. Rorvig earned a bachelor's degree in English at Seattle > University, a master's in library service from Columbia University and a > doctorate in information studies from the University of California at > Berkeley. At UNT, he led the master's program in information systems.any > one know him? > I took some photos for a book he did on microcomputers in libraries > and took an into to dp class from him when I started Computer > Exchange in AZ I had talked into course years before from > someone else but thought hey good to take it now things have changed and > I am going into the biz! > > I talked to him again years ago and thanked him for admitting me to > an already full class...but in looking him up to get some data from > him find he had passed but almost nothing out there....in the way > of info except for the brief info in google. I remember during > that class period I got first pdp-8 m or f ? and brought it into > class and showed the students how I would toggle it.... > > Funny this is when I got to first play on the HP2000 F I later to own > surplus form the college that shaped my entire future business ( > still have it under glass at SMECC) > > > Having that PDP 8 was great as a tty tester! Sold many ttys in the > early days.... > > thanks ed sharpe archivist for smecc > > I don't know about him, but I'm sorry for your loss. -- Eric Christopherson From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Sun Jul 22 15:59:57 2018 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 15:59:57 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <552C1876-F1CA-4A44-BB11-62B918C29C84@lunar-tokyo.net> Status update: They let me go home Thursday but I was too wiped out to post about it. Things are still pretty fluid, there were some complications, but they?re being managed. I was on the waitlist for 5 years and 4 months, they listed me immediately on diagnosis. I got the transplant through OSF, they are one of the better hospitals here in downstate Illinois. That they have maintained that status given the state?s extreme distress should say all that need be said. All the well-wishes are extremely appreciated. Friday the 13th now has a whole new meaning. From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Jul 22 16:31:27 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:31:27 +0000 Subject: TRS-80 floppy Message-ID: Not mine, just thought it might interest some here https://www.ebay.com/itm/202376723756 73 Eugene W2HX From chd at chdickman.com Sun Jul 22 17:38:05 2018 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:38:05 -0400 Subject: CoCo OS/9 was: TRS-80 floppy Message-ID: So what does it take to get OS/9 running on a Radio Shack Color Computer? I have a Color Computer 2 (? 64k and non-chicklet keyboard) and have always wanted to get it working with a disk OS. What do I need? I see a reproduction floppy disk controller on ebay. I would rather skip that and go straight to some kind of sold state memory. Suggestions or pointer to active groups? On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 5:31 PM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > Not mine, just thought it might interest some here > https://www.ebay.com/itm/202376723756 -chuck From jsw at ieee.org Sun Jul 22 17:43:42 2018 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:43:42 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory In-Reply-To: <20180722175425.F05DF18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180722175425.F05DF18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <86751828-854b-e1ee-9780-a7df0633c918@ieee.org> On 7/22/18 12:54 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mark Matlock > > > With the 11/83 the position of the memory board ... above the CPU uses > > PMI > > Yes, through the C-D interconnect; described in detail here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/CD_interconnect#Use_by_PMI > > The 'above' is because the CD interconnect is not a true bus, it only > interconnected pairs of slots. > > > In the 11/84 the CPU is above the MSV11-JE memory > > The PMI is still on the CD connector in this machine, but the PMI is wired as > a true bus on the backplane, allowing that ordering. > > > there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the Unibus map board, would it > > be possible to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot > > (not the PMI side of the slot) and have it able to DMA into the > > MSV11-JE? > > It is speculated that this should be possible, but there are jumpers on the > backplane you'd need to pull. See the writeup here: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/84#QBUS_slots > You might also need a change to the device handler.? For example in RT-11 to support the mapped window from 18bit to 22bit, the DU handler (for a UC07) uses extended memory subroutine $MPPHY ($MPPTR)? tell the controller what addresses to use.? $MPPHY uses Q.PAR, which is the relocation constant for the UMR (when present). Since this I/O isn't going through the KTJ11-B the handler at minimum would need to modified to use $MPMEM (Q.MEM) instead, to supply (in conjunction with Q.BUFF) the physical address. Jerry From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 18:03:18 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:03:18 -0500 Subject: MOS MCS2529 math chip In-Reply-To: References: <4263a82c-3cd3-c53a-09bd-12e436d707f8@gmail.com> <569b97a7-e323-3a16-19b6-aa629b5f4f09@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0cf85e8d-6627-b8c5-1374-ec4251bc09dd@gmail.com> On 07/22/2018 02:35 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > These calculators all have 3 NiCd > cells in them if the batteries where already removed, you may get a clue > from the shell how many cells it was designed for. Oh, fun... so, I'd found this snippet of info online the other day: <<< I have this calculator that I purchased sometime in the 1970's. Just today I pulled it out of the desk drawer and took the back off to see what type of batteries it had. The only thing I had to go on was the number on the pack (12B012). I did a Google search and came up with zilch; however, I slipped the pack out of the cylinder case and did some measurements. It appears that two NiCad size 4/5A cells would work since the size is identical. You would need two of these single cells and simply slip them into the Melcor outer case (in series) then place them into the calculator. I have not tried this yet, but I do intend to try it when I can get my hands on the 4/5A cells. Size, voltage etc. seem to be identical. >>> So I thought I was looking at a pack made from a pair of 1.2V cells. But I just revisited mine, also a 12B012, and realized that I could non-destructively dismantle it (I like keeping original batteries when I can - separate to the machine they were in, of course). Anyway *my* 12B012 is three cells, not the two that the above info seemed to imply. Somewhere I'd read that someone had powered one of these calcs up on 3V without damage, although it was a little temperamental. Deciding to risk that, I just tried it with a pair of 1.5V AA's and... it works! I still don't know the original voltage of the pack in mine, I mean maybe it was 3.6, maybe 4.5... but at least I can see how it goes now running on 3V, and make sure that the keys all work and such. cheers! Jules From chd at chdickman.com Sun Jul 22 19:13:38 2018 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 20:13:38 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: Below is a sampling of disks recorded between 2001 and 2009. It is likely that the disks of the same type were from the same package because I don't use many disks. They were stored without much care, but in a spaces tolerable to humans for reasonable periods. Imation CD-R recorded 2003/12/29 readable Imation CD-R recorded 2004/01/02 recoverable errors Imation CR-R recorded 2001/12/18 recoverable errors Imation CD-R recorded 2005/07/15 recoverable errors Imation CD-R recorded 2001/12/24 recoverable errors TDK DVD-R recorded 2006/02/05 recoverable errors TDK DVD-R recorded 2009/09 unrecoverable errors. The edges of the disk have a strange faded coloration. TDK DVD-R recorded 2007/10/07 readable Memorex CD-R recorded 2005 unrecoverable errors -chuck From BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu Sun Jul 22 19:35:49 2018 From: BHuntsman at mail2.cu-portland.edu (Benjamin Huntsman) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:35:49 +0000 Subject: Saturn V program punch card decks Message-ID: <44923B5F-9F80-4645-8D99-CBF8C297CFCE@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Anyone see this? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F113156542500 Hopefully the new owner will read it in and make the contents available. Looks like a fascinating piece of history! Pushing a tad rich for my blood though given that I don?t have a card reader From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 22 19:46:26 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:46:26 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: Somewhat of a tangent, but this just popped up for me. https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/07/microfilm-lasts-half-a-millennium/565643/ and I thought of this thread. Apologies if it's a duplicate.. Warner On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 6:13 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Below is a sampling of disks recorded between 2001 and 2009. It is > likely that the disks of the same type were from the same package > because I don't use many disks. They were stored without much care, > but in a spaces tolerable to humans for reasonable periods. > > Imation CD-R recorded 2003/12/29 readable > Imation CD-R recorded 2004/01/02 recoverable errors > Imation CR-R recorded 2001/12/18 recoverable errors > Imation CD-R recorded 2005/07/15 recoverable errors > Imation CD-R recorded 2001/12/24 recoverable errors > TDK DVD-R recorded 2006/02/05 recoverable errors > TDK DVD-R recorded 2009/09 unrecoverable errors. The > edges of the disk have a strange faded coloration. > TDK DVD-R recorded 2007/10/07 readable > Memorex CD-R recorded 2005 unrecoverable errors > > -chuck > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 22 19:51:17 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:51:17 -0700 (PDT) Subject: CoCo OS/9 was: TRS-80 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote: > So what does it take to get OS/9 running on a Radio Shack Color Computer? If you use the Radio Shack distribution of OS-9, then just booting with the RS OS-9 boot disk. I never took it much past that. I played with it a little to learn a little about it, but didn't have any active need or use for it. Make spare copies of the disks, and write protect them. If unfamiliar with the commands of an OS, it's quite possible to accidentally issue destructive commands. I remember somebody (NOT ME) accidentally formatting an Apple II disk when they first came out, while trying to guess the commands. > I have a Color Computer 2 (? 64k and non-chicklet keyboard) and have > always wanted to get it working with a disk OS. What do I need? I see > a reproduction floppy disk controller on ebay. I would rather skip > that and go straight to some kind of sold state memory. > Suggestions or pointer to active groups? It is certainly your choice, and it sounds like a good idea. However, if it were I, I would separate the hardware project from the software project, rather than doing both at once. Being cowardly, I would set up a stock disk system, and play with OS-9. Separately, I would try implementing solid-state memory. THEN I would try to combine the two modifications. There are still some Coco and OS-9 people around, although hardly as many as there once were. I'm in touch with Doctor Marty, but he's no longer doing Coco. His current project(s) are retrospective scanning/digitization of communist newspapers from the 1920s through 1940s. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jul 22 20:02:21 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:02:21 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <22D3A7C8-0E30-43A7-BA86-DE251DBD0B78@comcast.net> > On Jul 22, 2018, at 8:46 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > Somewhat of a tangent, but this just popped up for me. > > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/07/microfilm-lasts-half-a-millennium/565643/ > > and I thought of this thread. Apologies if it's a duplicate.. > > Warner Interesting. The article seems to say that it isn't the images on the film that last 500 years, only the substrate. The images would last too, if done by silver nitrate (original black & white technology). Later dye based stuff, like the blue you see on DEC microfiche, not so clear. Probably not; I wouldn't trust organic dyes to last a century. I suppose that this stuff would be discussed on the Long Now Foundation website. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 22 20:06:00 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:06:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Somewhat of a tangent, but this just popped up for me. > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/07/microfilm-lasts-half-a-millennium/565643/ > and I thought of this thread. Apologies if it's a duplicate.. Iff deliberately processed for archival permanence, metallic silver is long lasting. But, there have always been a lot of shortcuts taken to save time or money. A LOT of photographic materials were not adequately fixed ("hypo"/Sodium Thiosulfate?), and/or not adequately washed and or neutralizing the fixer. Archivala permanence calls for a fixer neutralizer, not just washing. For example, the Polaroid 55-P/N (4x5 print plus negative) had a different exposure index for the negative and the print, so one or the other would be off on exposure. The negative desperately needed to be more thoroughly fixed and washed, or it didn't last at all. Similarly with "stabilization" black and white prints. (anybody want an extra large stabilization processor? home lab movie film processing equipment?) There were many variations in the paper itself for photo prints. Some lasted better than others. Kodak has discontinued manufacturing of B&W photo paper, but there are a few other manufacturers still around. Color was done with dies, rather than metallic silver, and those fade. Remember how OVERLY bright Kodachrome was? Ektachrome held up a bit better. Longevity of digital data is predicated on periodic re-copying, and periodic transfer to other and newer media. "Cloud" is tempting, but the internet is written in sand; do you know ehre your data is? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Jul 22 20:08:40 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:08:40 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> > On Jul 22, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> ... > > I?ve failed to see any reason behind your questions. If you?re looking for a long-term archival solution, look to cloud storage (either on-prem, or off-prem). Sure tape is cheap, but when you start looking at other costs, such as storage and handling, it becomes expensive. Cloud storage as in "handled by some cloud company" is only as good as the longevity of that company. If it shuts down suddenly because of poor management or fraud, your data is almost certainly gone. Or it might end up disclosed to whoever pays pennies on the dollar for the company assets. On premises, sure, but now it's just a question of what medium you like. Those storage devices probably use disks, or maybe flash storage. How long do those last? For example, take a look at the "power off" retention time spec for flash storage, it's surprisingly short. And how long is the relevant software available? (That's a concern for any kind of digital storage, of course.) paul From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 22 20:11:04 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:11:04 -0400 Subject: Saturn V program punch card decks In-Reply-To: <44923B5F-9F80-4645-8D99-CBF8C297CFCE@mail2.cu-portland.edu> References: <44923B5F-9F80-4645-8D99-CBF8C297CFCE@mail2.cu-portland.edu> Message-ID: <164c4b095d5-c90-236da@webjas-vac167.srv.aolmail.net> The? space guys? will? win out? over the? computer? guys? ?probably? on this...? Indeed? would be interesting to see? what is on them. Ed# ? In a message dated 7/22/2018 5:36:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Anyone see this? https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F113156542500 Hopefully the new owner will read it in and make the contents available. Looks like a fascinating piece of history! Pushing a tad rich for my blood though given that I don?t have a card reader From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 20:11:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:11:41 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7052d57d-298b-7896-48d6-768a4cec4ce1@sydex.com> On 07/22/2018 05:46 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Somewhat of a tangent, but this just popped up for me. > > https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/07/microfilm-lasts-half-a-millennium/565643/ I read through to the end of the article and can't quite see where the 500 year lifetime comes in. Microfilm is a Mylar base with a gelatin coating containing bits of elemental silver, no? Why would this last for 500 years? Do we even have a 250-year old piece of intact gelatin? --Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 22 20:34:41 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:34:41 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 22, 2018, at 6:08 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Jul 22, 2018, at 4:06 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ... >> >> I?ve failed to see any reason behind your questions. If you?re looking for a long-term archival solution, look to cloud storage (either on-prem, or off-prem). Sure tape is cheap, but when you start looking at other costs, such as storage and handling, it becomes expensive. > > Cloud storage as in "handled by some cloud company" is only as good as the longevity of that company. If it shuts down suddenly because of poor management or fraud, your data is almost certainly gone. Or it might end up disclosed to whoever pays pennies on the dollar for the company assets. > > On premises, sure, but now it's just a question of what medium you like. Those storage devices probably use disks, or maybe flash storage. How long do those last? For example, take a look at the "power off" retention time spec for flash storage, it's surprisingly short. And how long is the relevant software available? (That's a concern for any kind of digital storage, of course.) There are only a couple cloud companies I?d recommend storing data with, for precisely the reasons you give. Storing with two would be advisable. Or a hybrid on and off premises approach. For my photography archives, I?m taking a hybrid approach, recent changes are backed up to Drobo, everything is cloned and kept offsite, and then all photo?s are also sent to Cloud Storage. Once you start planning for Backups as part of your storage purchases, it becomes easier to handle. On premises has the exact same problem as tape. You must have a refresh plan. That?s the advantage of off prem, you don?t have to worry about refresh. For archives to be done right, you need at least two copies, excellent documentation, and a solid refresh plan. Zane From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 20:41:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:41:58 -0700 Subject: Saturn V program punch card decks In-Reply-To: <164c4b095d5-c90-236da@webjas-vac167.srv.aolmail.net> References: <44923B5F-9F80-4645-8D99-CBF8C297CFCE@mail2.cu-portland.edu> <164c4b095d5-c90-236da@webjas-vac167.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 07/22/2018 06:11 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > The? space guys? will? win out? over the? computer? guys? ?probably? on this...? > > > Indeed? would be interesting to see? what is on them. That's not a lot of cards. One box is marked "FLOWTRAN"--I suspect that they're input to the FLOWTRAN propulsion modeling system mentioned here: http://sunnyday.mit.edu/accidents/mpl_report_3.pdf --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 20:47:07 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 18:47:07 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 07/22/2018 06:34 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On premises has the exact same problem as tape. You must have a refresh plan. That?s the advantage of off prem, you don?t have to worry about refresh. I don't exactly follow you. In the case of a specific example for NASA and its vendors a given mission may involve tens of thousands of tapes. When a mission concludes, tapes are usually bundled off to a warehouse and then later junked. There's no money in the mission budget for preservation ad perpetuum. --Chuck From jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com Sun Jul 22 21:17:39 2018 From: jplist2008 at kiwigeek.com (JP Hindin) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:17:39 -0500 (CDT) Subject: Semi-OT: Hitachi Seiki Micon16-II In-Reply-To: <8d889703-403c-5965-46fd-e10babedf6b6@sydex.com> References: <8d889703-403c-5965-46fd-e10babedf6b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Over on the CNCZone forum, there's a user, John, whose ID is shas595 who > seems to know just about everything about these units and is willing to > help. > > You might want to drop him a line. Thank you kindly, Chuck; We had actually reached out to him already - but lost contact (presumably he got busy, which is hardly a crime). We'll touch base again and catch up. Thank you; - JP > On 07/22/2018 11:26 AM, JP Hindin via cctalk wrote: >> >> Good arvo all; >> >> A family member recently purchased a rather large CNC which uses a >> Micon16-II system (as well as a Fanuc 15M) to drive it. Unfortunately >> the battery for the RAM died during storage prior to him getting it and >> all of the ladder logic is gone. >> >> We'd really love to try and find some kind of technical manual for the >> 16-II, or anything really, to assist in talking with the machine and >> interrogating it's state. We have a copy of the missing ladder logic in >> paper form so we're not totally out of luck, but the ability to enter it >> in segments rather in one 40 hour slog might be nice. >> >> If anyone has anything easily sharable we'd very much appreciate the >> assistance; >> >> Thank you. >> >> ?- JP >> > From healyzh at avanthar.com Sun Jul 22 21:33:10 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 19:33:10 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 22, 2018, at 6:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/22/2018 06:34 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> On premises has the exact same problem as tape. You must have a refresh plan. That?s the advantage of off prem, you don?t have to worry about refresh. > > I don't exactly follow you. In the case of a specific example for NASA > and its vendors a given mission may involve tens of thousands of tapes. > When a mission concludes, tapes are usually bundled off to a warehouse > and then later junked. There's no money in the mission budget for > preservation ad perpetuum. > > --Chuck That?s the whole point of Cloud-based archives, as long as someone pays the ?small? annual bill, the data is preserved, and someone else worries about the refresh of the data to more modern storage solutions. Theoretically it?s also easier to find data in the cloud, but that depends on if you simply throw the data up there in the cloud, or if you take the time to do it right. My guess is most will simply toss it up into the cloud and forget about it. At some point, some bean-counter will ask why the bill has grown so large, and then? Zane From hollandia at ccountry.net Sun Jul 22 22:07:24 2018 From: hollandia at ccountry.net (hollandia at ccountry.net) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 20:07:24 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> Message-ID: <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Is there any relationship betwween the SPEED at which laser-disks are written and the length of time that the recording will last? Kurt >> On Jul 22, 2018, at 6:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 07/22/2018 06:34 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On premises has the exact same problem as tape. You must have a >>> refresh plan. That???s the advantage of off prem, you don???t have to >>> worry about refresh. >> >> I don't exactly follow you. In the case of a specific example for NASA >> and its vendors a given mission may involve tens of thousands of tapes. >> When a mission concludes, tapes are usually bundled off to a warehouse >> and then later junked. There's no money in the mission budget for >> preservation ad perpetuum. >> >> --Chuck From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Jul 22 23:05:02 2018 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 22:05:02 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: Throughout this whole thread, I've been tempted to say that you get better data fidelity if you take a green magic marker and mark the edges of the disk... Of course, I know people here will get that old, tired meme... It got me wondering, though, if anybody tested that hypothesis for longevity since the marker would seal the edges... maybe :) Warner On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 9:07 PM, hollandia--- via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there any relationship betwween the SPEED at which laser-disks are > written and the length of time that the recording will last? > > Kurt > > > >> On Jul 22, 2018, at 6:47 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > >> wrote: > >> > >> On 07/22/2018 06:34 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> On premises has the exact same problem as tape. You must have a > >>> refresh plan. That?s the advantage of off prem, you don?t have to > >>> worry about refresh. > >> > >> I don't exactly follow you. In the case of a specific example for NASA > >> and its vendors a given mission may involve tens of thousands of tapes. > >> When a mission concludes, tapes are usually bundled off to a warehouse > >> and then later junked. There's no money in the mission budget for > >> preservation ad perpetuum. > >> > >> --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Jul 22 23:12:17 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:12:17 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On 07/22/2018 09:05 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Of course, I know people here will get that old, tired meme... It got me > wondering, though, if anybody tested that hypothesis for longevity since > the marker would seal the edges... maybe :) I don't know about sealing anything, as the layer of ink deposited would likely be so thin and porous. I'd almost forgotten about that old chestnut. Fortunately, Snopes remembers: https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bewaring-of-the-green/ --Chuck From chd at chdickman.com Sun Jul 22 16:01:02 2018 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:01:02 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory In-Reply-To: <549E7DDF-8B84-48FE-B88E-97529D8F2B84@MatlockFamily.com> References: <549E7DDF-8B84-48FE-B88E-97529D8F2B84@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote: > Now my question is, there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the Unibus map board, would it be possible > to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot (not the PMI side of the slot) and have it > able to DMA into the MSV11-JE? The answer I have heard here over and over is that an 11/84 with the UNIBUS adapter and PMI memory does not have a Qbus. As I understand it, the KDJ11-B (M8190) bus protocols change when a KTJ11 (UNIBUS adapter) is present and so what would be expected to be Qbus isn't. Others can probably explain the details and I think there was a DEC Micronote that explained the protocol modifications involved. > Mark -chuck From joezatarski at gmail.com Sun Jul 22 17:15:49 2018 From: joezatarski at gmail.com (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 17:15:49 -0500 Subject: Landfill? Message-ID: <6f591fda-e37a-884f-ae98-68d675dacb37@illinois.edu> > I also have a few boxes of old books and IBM slip-case manuals (techRef, > etc.), 3" and 3.25" drives, at least one bundle of hard sector disks, half > a dozen HP "pinch to close shutter" 3.5" disks, a Shugart 3.5" from before > they HAD shutters, a Sony 600RPM 3.5" (if I can find it), . . . > ('course all of THAT will look like Generic PC Crap to people unfamiliar, > . . . ) > > I'm not healthy enough (last year I had another TURP surgery, instead of > VCF, eclipse, and Concourse D'Lemons) to dig out the 8" drives, or to > really load up, so, it's gonna be a much lesser quantity of what I can > manage. > > -- > Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com If you turn it up, I might be interested in getting that Sony 600 RPM drive, but I won't be at VCF East. I need one to replace the broken one in my HP logic analyzer. Let me know price/shipping if it turns up. Joe Zatarski From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 22 23:38:41 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 21:38:41 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I'd almost forgotten about that old chestnut. Fortunately, Snopes > remembers: > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bewaring-of-the-green/ But, what about using a gold USB cable? Surely the quality of the power filtration must make a difference. And, what about the SOURCE of the power? Wouldn't discs be more reliable if the drive is driven by solar power, rather than nuclear? Vibrations are an obvious culprit. That can be easily proven by beating on drums on the table where the drive is. The burning should be done in an acoustically sealed environment. Light leakage mmust also affect it. All burning should be done in total darkness, although some claim that a #10 safelight should be OK. . . . From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 01:35:52 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 02:35:52 -0400 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <20180722180728.A7C7C18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180722180728.A7C7C18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01c801d4224f$67375fb0$35a61f10$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2018 2:07 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 - MS11-B Engineering Drawings About all we're missing are the MS11-A/C data board engineering drawings. (The control board is in the MS11-B prints.) ----- Note that the schematics clearly show that the memory controller has direct access to both the Fastbus and Unibus B, and thus slot 21 (and 16) is wired for the purpose. So why have OTT cables to both slots 26 /27 AB? Perhaps the narrow cable goes to slot 27 to pick up some additional Unibus B signals, and the wider cable to slot 26 to pick up a larger set of Unibus A signals equivalent to those to which it already has direct access for Unibus B).. Is this the way that those OTT cables are wired Mattis? >From the ABLE marketing literature: CACHE/ 45 (CACHE BUFFER MEMORY) INSTALLS IN: PDP-11/45, -11/50 and -11/55 CAPACITY: 2048 byte (1 K word). ENHANCEMENT FACTOR: Run time reductions to 50% (100% speed improvement) are achievable. CACHE PARITY: Automatically goes off-line in event of any data error. RANGE SELECTION: User may optimize hit ratio by upper/lower limit switch settings. SPECIAL FEATURE: Cache/ 45 can be enabled via software or console switches. Presumably that's what Mattis has in-hand. ----- From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 01:36:28 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:36:28 +0200 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <20180722193246.E853418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180722193246.E853418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > > Studying the MS11 Maint Manual, the MS11 controller has access to the full > address and data from both the CPU (FastBus) and UNIBUS B. (The FastBus > actually has two uni-directional data busses; in and out.) So all that > info, > this hypothetical cache board can get from the slot it is plugged into > (assuming the cache is plugged into one of the controller slots), over its > connector pins. > > The connectors on the back of the card, and two small boards, must be for > listening to UNIBUS A (in configurations in which the two UNIBI aren't > joined > together)? (I'm too lazy to check the slot numbers are see what they > actually > are.) > > And there is indeed a signal which the MS11 uses to tell the CPU it has the > location the CPU is asking for, so it's theoretically possible to build a > cache > card that plugs into a FastBus slot. > Here is how it is connected: https://i.imgur.com/4TEZoiO.jpg The sandwiched dual boards are i sitting in 27 / 26 AB. The board in 27AB was empty (quick glance), while the board in 26AB has a few TTL chips on it. Slot 26AB is the Unibus A slot, Slot 27 AB should be a terminator on Unibus B. (maybe there were terminating resistors on the second board. Didn't check in detail) Slot 28AB is Unibus B and goes to the DD11-C and the RK11-D backplanes. The hex ABLE/ ACT board sits in slot 21 which is the memory controller board for the MS11. It very much looks like it is a Cache board. But why have some one written "Not used" (Anv?nds ej) on it? I'll hope I find the documentation for it! /Mattis > > Noel > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 23 01:46:56 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 08:46:56 +0200 (CEST) Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> References: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, carlos_murillo at ieee.org wrote: > Under SunOS 4.1.4, the last gcc version that is supported is 3.3.6, but I > haven't been able to build it on an IPX;? it gets to the point where it Not quite true: # uname -a SunOS azu 4.1.1 10 sun4 unknown unknown SunOS # gcc -v Reading specs from /ibm/usr/lib/gcc/sparc-sun-sunos4.1.1/3.4.6/specs Configured with: ../gcc-3.4.6/configure --prefix=/ibm/usr --program-suffix=-3.4 --with-gnu-ld --with-ld=/ibm/usr/bin/ld --with-gnu-as --with-as=/ibm/usr/bin/as --with-cpu=v7 --disable-nls --with-libiconv-prefix=/ibm/usr --enable-obsolete Thread model: single gcc version 3.4.6 # ld --version GNU ld 2.9.1 Copyright 1997 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This program is free software; you may redistribute it under the terms of the GNU General Public License. This program has absolutely no warranty. Supported emulations: sun4 # as --version GNU assembler 2.9.1 Copyright 1997 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This program is free software; you may redistribute it under the terms of the GNU General Public License. This program has absolutely no warranty. This assembler was configured for a target of `sparc-sun-sunos4.1.1'. This is on a SUN 4/260 with 32MB RAM. > starts running gengtype and eats all memory available (I have 64MB RAM and > have added as much as 1024 swap and it still crashes).? So, for the time Yes, there are such issues. The solution is to cross compile it with distcc. Christian From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 02:04:24 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 02:04:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory In-Reply-To: References: <549E7DDF-8B84-48FE-B88E-97529D8F2B84@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: Would a Quniverter would work? On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 4:01 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 8:47 AM, Mark Matlock via cctech > wrote: > > Now my question is, there are 3 Bus slots in the 11/84 above the > Unibus map board, would it be possible > > to put a dual width Q22 I/O board in the second memory slot (not the PMI > side of the slot) and have it > > able to DMA into the MSV11-JE? > > The answer I have heard here over and over is that an 11/84 with the > UNIBUS adapter and PMI memory does not have a Qbus. As I understand > it, the KDJ11-B (M8190) bus protocols change when a KTJ11 (UNIBUS > adapter) is present and so what would be expected to be Qbus isn't. > > Others can probably explain the details and I think there was a DEC > Micronote that explained the protocol modifications involved. > > > Mark > > -chuck > From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 02:42:12 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 03:42:12 -0400 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: References: <20180722193246.E853418C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01d501d42258$ab93e5d0$02bbb170$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:36 AM To: Noel Chiappa; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Here is how it is connected: https://i.imgur.com/4TEZoiO.jpg The sandwiched dual boards are i sitting in 27 / 26 AB. The board in 27AB was empty (quick glance), while the board in 26AB has a few TTL chips on it. Slot 26AB is the Unibus A slot, Slot 27 AB should be a terminator on Unibus B. (maybe there were terminating resistors on the second board. Didn't check in detail) Slot 28AB is Unibus B and goes to the DD11-C and the RK11-D backplanes. The hex ABLE/ ACT board sits in slot 21 which is the memory controller board for the MS11. It very much looks like it is a Cache board. But why have some one written "Not used" (Anv?nds ej) on it? I'll hope I find the documentation for it! /Mattis ----- I wonder whether this CACHE/45 can coexist with MS11 memory on the Fastbus itself, or is designed to _replace_ MS11 memory by accelerating access to Unibus-based memory? The available product literature doesn't clarify either way. paul From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 03:39:38 2018 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:39:38 +0100 Subject: CoCo OS/9 was: TRS-80 floppy In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <041901d42260$b20c91c0$1625b540$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk On Behalf Of Charles Dickman > via cctalk > Sent: 22 July 2018 23:38 > To: W2HX ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic > Posts > Subject: CoCo OS/9 was: TRS-80 floppy > > So what does it take to get OS/9 running on a Radio Shack Color Computer? > Depends on which OS/9. In recent years it has had a chequered history. But basically a boot disk. > I have a Color Computer 2 (? 64k and non-chicklet keyboard) That?s a bit limiting for OS/9. I think that limits you to OS/9 level 1. > and have always > wanted to get it working with a disk OS. What do I need? I see a reproduction > floppy disk controller on ebay. I would rather skip that and go straight to > some kind of sold state memory. I would get a COCO SDC. http://www.cocowares.com/item.php?nombre=CoCo%20SDC you get two drives from an SD card, and two from DriveWire a host program you run on a PC. > > Suggestions or pointer to active groups? > Very active mail list. https://pairlist5.pair.net/mailman/listinfo/coco Dave > On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 5:31 PM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > Not mine, just thought it might interest some here > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/202376723756 > > -chuck From bear at typewritten.org Mon Jul 23 02:55:00 2018 From: bear at typewritten.org (r.stricklin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 00:55:00 -0700 Subject: MVME188 backplane jumpers Message-ID: Does somebody know how to set the IACK and BG backplane jumpers for the MVME188 CPU? Remove them all? Leave them in behind the memory and/or cpu board(s)? Something else? All the documentation I can find are for the normal VME SBCs, which the 188 isn't. Thanks! ok bear. -- until further notice From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Jul 23 05:03:07 2018 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:03:07 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <01QV7JRFG8CG0011OG@beyondthepale.ie> Grumpy Ol' Fred wrote: > On Sun, 22 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > I'd almost forgotten about that old chestnut. Fortunately, Snopes > > remembers: > > https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bewaring-of-the-green/ > > But, what about using a gold USB cable? > Only if it is pure gold. None of this plated nonsense. > > Surely the quality of the power filtration must make a difference. > Well, if we are talking audio, maybe there would be a hum if it is not filtered right. However, my one time boss once told me that he had a friend who was an audio nut who swore the sound from his amplifier was better when he swapped the live and neutral wires in the mains plug... > > And, what about the SOURCE of the power? Wouldn't discs be more reliable > if the drive is driven by solar power, rather than nuclear? > Surely rotating discs have to perform better when driven by power that comes from a rotating machine, unless someone has been stupid enough to have the discs rotate in the opposite direction to the power generator... > > Vibrations are an obvious culprit. That can be easily proven by > beating on drums on the table where the drive is. The burning should be > done in an acoustically sealed environment. > Or the drumming should be done in an oxygen free, airtight environment. (There may be a brief period of instability at the beginning but things should quickly settle down.) > > Light leakage mmust also affect it. All burning should be done in total > darkness, although some claim that a #10 safelight should be OK. > If you can't see the disc turning, how can you know it has been burnt! :-) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:00:50 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:00:50 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 23:12, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > the software I need to use requires the third button to > select items Have you experimented with the option where pressing both buttons simulatenously simulates the middle button? A configurable option in most Windows mouse drivers; default behaviour in Linux, AFAIK. -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:42:44 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:42:44 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: with software like Tektronix's TekXpress you can't simulate the middle button 2018-07-23 13:00 GMT+02:00 Liam Proven via cctalk : > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018 at 23:12, Carlo Pisani via cctalk > wrote: > >> the software I need to use requires the third button to >> select items > > Have you experimented with the option where pressing both buttons > simulatenously simulates the middle button? A configurable option in > most Windows mouse drivers; default behaviour in Linux, AFAIK. > > -- > Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:47:59 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:47:59 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 at 13:42, Carlo Pisani wrote: > > with software like Tektronix's TekXpress you can't simulate the middle button Please bottom-post on the list if you can. Gmail does it fine. I'm doing it right now. Hit Ctrl-A, trim, paste below. I don't know TexExpress. What OS does it run under? -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:55:28 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:55:28 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I don't know TexExpress. What OS does it run under? VxWorks, customized by Tektronix. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 06:57:24 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 06:57:24 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <89ed2422-0d09-1948-0329-766534dfed96@gmail.com> On 07/21/2018 10:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > hi > yesterday I was shocked by a couple of videos on Youtube where guys > pointed out their negative experiences with CD ROM and DVD RAM as > media for their own backup. > > They complained their data completely lost after 5 years of storage in > CD ROMs, pointing out that their CDs were perfectly conserved and kept > clean without scratches, but all the data is gone lost since the media > is unreadable. I've found in the past that problems with CDs are two-fold: 1) Deterioration of the media itself (which was particularly bad in the early days) 2) Incompatibilities with media and/or the burning process across drives and platforms. The latter cropped up time and again, enough that I decided it was too risky to keep data on CD because I might want to come back to it 5 or 10 (or more) years later and find that no hardware that I had available was capable of reading it. I don't know if DVD is any better; I developed a deep mistrust of any optical media and so I avoid it except for transient stuff where there's no alternative. cheers Jules From lproven at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 07:06:08 2018 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:06:08 +0200 Subject: ps/2 Keyboard with 3 button trackball In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 23 Jul 2018 at 13:55, Carlo Pisani wrote: > > VxWorks, customized by Tektronix. Oh boy. Yeah, I see what you mean. That is going to be tricky, then. Is a separate mouse/trackball out of the question? Few PS/2 keyboards are made any more, so you're looking for a subtype of a subtype of older device. It's not impossible, they are out there -- a quick Google using your subject line finds several. But most are USB, probably mislabelled. Same as most "USB to PS/2" convertors are mislabelled "PS/2 to USB convertors". -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ?R (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 23 08:59:47 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:59:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory Message-ID: <20180723135947.D27CA18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Dickman > an 11/84 with the UNIBUS adapter and PMI memory does not have a Qbus. > ... the KDJ11-B (M8190) bus protocols change when a KTJ11 (UNIBUS > adapter) is present and so what would be expected to be Qbus isn't. Ah, excellent point. Looking at the description of the CPU/UBA adapter in the KDJ11-B User Manual (EK-KDJ1B-UG-001, pp. 7-6 to 7-9), the answer is not certain; it all depends on implementation details on the CPU card which aren't described. E.g. the DMA cycle _might_ work, it all depends on what happens at step 8 when, instead of PBSY being asserted, BSYNC is asserted. The _memory_ will be fine (since in an -11/83, this kind of thing is expected)... but the _CPU_, who knows. Interrupt cycles are more problematic; the assertion of the interrupt level on the BDAL lines (step 1a) will probably pass, but step 6 (assertion of BSACK) may be an issue, since the device will want to assert BRPLY instead (BSACK is not used in a QBUS interrupt), and the CPU may not do the right thing. > I think there was a DEC Micronote that explained the protocol > modifications involved. I don't think so; #30 "PMI on KDJ11-B and MSV11-J" describes the _basic_ PMI, but the interaction with the UBA isn't described there. But the KDJ11-B User Manual has it in some detail. Noel From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 09:18:15 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:18:15 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/84 Qbus slots for memory In-Reply-To: <20180723135947.D27CA18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180723135947.D27CA18C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Hi Mark, If you want to borrow one to try it, let me know. Paul On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 8:59 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Charles Dickman > > > an 11/84 with the UNIBUS adapter and PMI memory does not have a Qbus. > > ... the KDJ11-B (M8190) bus protocols change when a KTJ11 (UNIBUS > > adapter) is present and so what would be expected to be Qbus isn't. > > Ah, excellent point. > > Looking at the description of the CPU/UBA adapter in the KDJ11-B User > Manual > (EK-KDJ1B-UG-001, pp. 7-6 to 7-9), the answer is not certain; it all > depends > on implementation details on the CPU card which aren't described. > > E.g. the DMA cycle _might_ work, it all depends on what happens at step 8 > when, instead of PBSY being asserted, BSYNC is asserted. The _memory_ will > be > fine (since in an -11/83, this kind of thing is expected)... but the _CPU_, > who knows. > > Interrupt cycles are more problematic; the assertion of the interrupt level > on the BDAL lines (step 1a) will probably pass, but step 6 (assertion of > BSACK) may be an issue, since the device will want to assert BRPLY instead > (BSACK is not used in a QBUS interrupt), and the CPU may not do the right > thing. > > > I think there was a DEC Micronote that explained the protocol > > modifications involved. > > I don't think so; #30 "PMI on KDJ11-B and MSV11-J" describes the _basic_ > PMI, but the interaction with the UBA isn't described there. But the > KDJ11-B User Manual has it in some detail. > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Jul 23 09:29:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:29:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC uNotes Message-ID: <20180723142931.1C8D118C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > #30 "PMI on KDJ11-B and MSV11-J" So it turns out there are _two_ uNote sets, with overlapping numbers! (A fact about which I was previously unaware!) I have two PDF files of the collections; micronoteReprints.pdf (the first set), and oemMicronotes.pdf (the second). Note! There's an index to the first set at the back of the second, and it lists 111; but the ToC for the first one only lists 85! But they are in fact all there (and more; the ones there go up through 115). Noel From als at thangorodrim.ch Mon Jul 23 10:51:59 2018 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 17:51:59 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20180723155158.GB24301@thangorodrim.de> On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 08:06:24PM +0200, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > thus DDS4, LTO2, DLT: which is the best tape? If you even remotely care about your data, stay far away from DDS. In a previous job we used DDS3 tapes as system backup and restore tapes (since the machines could boot from them). Those were written at most once a month and in 1.5 years there I accumulated a nice stack of 'dead' (hard read errors) tapes. I think none survived more than half a dozen write cycles and they got read not much more. Generally, avoiding any helical scan tape technology (DDS, AIT) is probably a good idea on account of increased head & tape wear this causes. Personally, I have good experience with both DLT and LTO, both are linear scan technologies and IIRC are specified to last at least 1-2 decades given proper storage. Of course, you still want several generations and copies of your backups. Another thing to keep in mind: it is nice if your backup medium lasts decades, but what about the reader for it? Will that be available down the road as well and usable? And, not to forget: what format are your backups written in. Something standard like POSIX tar or some proprietary format used by some commercial software, which might have availability issues in the future. Kind regards, Alex. > > 2018-07-22 18:11 GMT+02:00 Jon Elson via cctalk : > > On 07/22/2018 10:52 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> > >> On 07/22/2018 06:33 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Jul 21, 2018, at 3:25 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk > >>>> wrote: > >>>> > >>>> ... > >>>> and what about magnetic-tapes? (e.g. DDS4, DLT, LTO2) > >>>> > >>>> which of them lasts for the most? > >>> > >>> I don't know specifically. I do know that plain old audio tapes may fail > >>> -- I have perhaps 100 cassettes recorded in the 1970s. Most of them are > >>> fine, but essentially all of them that are Fuji brand have failed utterly. > >> > >> Half-inch open-reel tape at 1600 PE density. Should be good for 50 > >> years at least. > >> > >> > > Well, you are one of the experts in this, but it all depends on storage > > conditions. Also, the extended-length tapes were too thin, and suffered > > from creasing and print-through. Badly stored, and you can kiss your data > > goodbye in less than 5 years. > > > > Jon -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From ethan at 757.org Mon Jul 23 12:19:59 2018 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:19:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with BD-R (Blu-Ray) In-Reply-To: <20180723155158.GB24301@thangorodrim.de> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <20180723155158.GB24301@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: My BD-R story: For a little bit I was trying to go Blue Ray for backup of conference talks I was recording at the time. I picked up a Samsung BD-R drive and some memorex media. The media for BD-R comes in a High to low and low to high versions. One is dye based not for long term, the other type is long term. The Memorex type I got was the long term type. I carefully made 2 or 3 copies of each set of video files. Each event took 2 to 3 discs (Was recording events live using Blackmagic ATEM system, 5GB per hour is the data rate in 1080i60 h264 encoded.) After about 9 months I went to copy some data back. It was all gone. Everything deteriorated and all the data was unreadable. Before I bought the drive I looked for info on reliability and didn't find any indicators that the media sometimes has severe issues. Since then I kind of swore off optical media. I have some Verbatim discs but I haven't used them yet. I figure they will do better, but still bitter over losing the information from the earier events. I have around 60TB of spinning disks at home, but will be going tape in the future. A lot of my data is conference video and backups of laser show tapes which often are 8 channels of WAV data @ 48khz, so ~3-4GB per 30 minute show tape. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 23 12:48:03 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:48:03 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <941ecf82-86ef-5df6-9ca8-22d22f77e559@sydex.com> On 07/22/2018 09:05 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Throughout this whole thread, I've been tempted to say that you get better > data fidelity if you take a green magic marker and mark the edges of the > disk... > I think that the use of tapes in the 23rd century justifies their reputation for durability: http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Microtape --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Mon Jul 23 12:54:26 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 10:54:26 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On 07/22/2018 09:05 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > Throughout this whole thread, I've been tempted to say that you get better > data fidelity if you take a green magic marker and mark the edges of the > disk... On the other hand, information on MicroSD cards is likely to end up in the sewer system, lost between floorboard cracks or vacuumed or swept into the rubbish bin accidentally. IMIHO, a grievous error by making things too physically small. The standard SD card is easy enough to pick out in a deep-pile carpet. Not so, the usual black-colored MicriSD. The dog might well eat it without even being aware of having done it. Are there such things as "microSD" to "standard SD" adapters that allows for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots? --Chuck From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 13:00:09 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:00:09 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Jul 22, 2018 at 7:13 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Below is a sampling of disks recorded between 2001 and 2009. It is > likely that the disks of the same type were from the same package > because I don't use many disks. They were stored without much care, > but in a spaces tolerable to humans for reasonable periods. > > Imation CD-R recorded 2003/12/29 readable > Imation CD-R recorded 2004/01/02 recoverable errors > Imation CR-R recorded 2001/12/18 recoverable errors > Imation CD-R recorded 2005/07/15 recoverable errors > Imation CD-R recorded 2001/12/24 recoverable errors > TDK DVD-R recorded 2006/02/05 recoverable errors > TDK DVD-R recorded 2009/09 unrecoverable errors. The > edges of the disk have a strange faded coloration. > TDK DVD-R recorded 2007/10/07 readable > Memorex CD-R recorded 2005 unrecoverable errors > > > Probably a good idea to use something like RAR with parity. I know I have downloaded some multi-segment binaries in RAR format from usenet with several missing segments and as long as I had the parity file set it could successfully recover the entire archive. From oltmansg at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 13:03:27 2018 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:03:27 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 12:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > IMIHO, a grievous error by making things too physically small. The > standard SD card is easy enough to pick out in a deep-pile carpet. Not > so, the usual black-colored MicriSD. The dog might well eat it without > even being aware of having done it. > > Are there such things as "microSD" to "standard SD" adapters that allows > for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots? > I agree. Most sold today come with a microSD to SD adapter. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 23 13:55:57 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:55:57 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> > Does anybody here have experience with "M-Disc"? > > It is available up to 100GB BDXL! > Drives start at less than $100; media is prices vary - the 100GB starts > at > about $20 each, but the low capacity versions are bordering on > competitive. Fred, I have used M-Disc to archive photos and digital media. So far so good. Problem is you need an M-Disc drive to read it for sure - what does that mean? Well the disc is supposed to be compatible across all DVD readers BUT I have found my older Lite-On IDE drives, which were considered very good back in the day, have had problems reading the DVDs. So your mileage may vary... Also of note the original company has gone bankrupt and their assets bought out. The new owners are continuing to produce M-Disc media. -Ali From dmonnens at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 08:21:15 2018 From: dmonnens at gmail.com (Devin Monnens) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:21:15 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? Message-ID: > > I have a lot of backup here stored in CDs, and I have recently bought > an SCSI DVDRAM unit to create new backups in caddies DVD-RAMs (of > 4.2Gbyte each) what is your experience? I recently disposed of a couple hundred DVD and CD backups I'd made. As mentioned in a previous comment, it's simply too impractical to store terabytes of information in 4.7GB segments, plus they take up a LOT of space. HDDs aren't the most reliable, but this is what I use now for that reason. I make sure to keep the previous backup in case something happens. I'll only use optical backups now with the most important data. Backblaze has some interesting stats regarding HDD reliability (they are a data center using thousands of drives running constantly): https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-q1-2018/ As noted previously, beyond storage conditions, disc longevity depends on the types of dyes used in the discs. Gold is supposed to be best. Early on, they experimented with a wide variety of dye types, and the silver dyes were least reliable, oxidizing in only about 10 years. The thing is, no media format is going to last forever. The only really reliable way of keeping data around is multiple backups and data migration. Basically, for your really important stuff, you'll want a couple of backups, stored in different geographical locations (one local, one on cloud works, too). You'll want to periodically refresh the backups by migrating the data onto fresh media. In the preservation business, the ideal is to refresh after the cost of storage media is 1/2 of the initial investment. So, if you paid $1 a GB for the initial storage media, you'll want to migrate once the new format is $0.50 a GB, and then again when it is $0.25 and so on. This way, the total cost is double what you initially invested. Of course, while the cost per GB might drop steadily, the total amount on a particular media format will increase as well, such that the $150 HDD you bought 5 years ago will have twice the storage for...$150. Definitely open to other suggestions. From allisonportable at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 10:07:32 2018 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 11:07:32 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7cbd5e08-14b0-536f-abca-89d1a2d5b806@gmail.com> On 07/23/2018 09:21 AM, Devin Monnens via cctech wrote: >> I have a lot of backup here stored in CDs, and I have recently bought >> an SCSI DVDRAM unit to create new backups in caddies DVD-RAMs (of >> 4.2Gbyte each) > > what is your experience? > > > I recently disposed of a couple hundred DVD and CD backups I'd made. As > mentioned in a previous comment, it's simply too impractical to store > terabytes of information in 4.7GB segments, plus they take up a LOT of > space. HDDs aren't the most reliable, but this is what I use now for that > reason. I make sure to keep the previous backup in case something happens. > I'll only use optical backups now with the most important data. > > Backblaze has some interesting stats regarding HDD reliability (they are a > data center using thousands of drives running constantly): > https://www.backblaze.com/blog/hard-drive-stats-for-q1-2018/ > > As noted previously, beyond storage conditions, disc longevity depends on > the types of dyes used in the discs. Gold is supposed to be best. Early on, > they experimented with a wide variety of dye types, and the silver dyes > were least reliable, oxidizing in only about 10 years. > > The thing is, no media format is going to last forever. The only really > reliable way of keeping data around is multiple backups and data migration. > Basically, for your really important stuff, you'll want a couple of > backups, stored in different geographical locations (one local, one on > cloud works, too). You'll want to periodically refresh the backups by > migrating the data onto fresh media. > > In the preservation business, the ideal is to refresh after the cost of > storage media is 1/2 of the initial investment. So, if you paid $1 a GB for > the initial storage media, you'll want to migrate once the new format is > $0.50 a GB, and then again when it is $0.25 and so on. This way, the total > cost is double what you initially invested. > > Of course, while the cost per GB might drop steadily, the total amount on a > particular media format will increase as well, such that the $150 HDD you > bought 5 years ago will have twice the storage for...$150. Definitely open > to other suggestions. I remember the first video disks that after 10 years would develop sparklies (video noise from errors). I rarely use optical disks of any for though I still have CDR as a small but locally handy media.? There are many others over the years.? I generally keep a few formats as working copies.? Any media for that gets refreshed as needed and master copies are abundant as a backup.? Its rare they all fail at the same time, least I've never seen that. For example for the CP/M systems 8", 5,25, and 3.5" floppies, refreshed every so often. The exception is the hard sector 5.25 stuff.? The pdp11 has RX01/2 and RX33 Both PDP11 and uVAX I have a large number of RD52 (Quantum D540s 31mb) I use as cold swap backup storage media.? They are very good as the media is plated nickel-cobalt not the usual brown rust.? With more than two decades of doing that none have thrown an error or failed.? Of the larger RZ56s are basically used the same way save for SCSI class. For the PC, I use older PC with big disks.? They are air-gapped backups.? There are several with all the same stuff in case one fails.? The routine is to install and run a new data drive for a while then copy the smaller to it and archive the smaller. Over the last few years I've resorted to using? large disks in a USB case (so called backup drives) where the case is open-able and I swap drive into them as archive copies with a write, verify, remove, and store cycle.? Big drives 300GB to 1TB are dirt cheap and I use them like flash sticks.? ?I also use USB flash as they seem solid though somewhat small if you don't re-write a lot.?? I have a few that are a mere 128K byte that are over a decade old and still going.? However I am wary of widows systems as they tend to write a lot of crap on them besides the actual file.? Linux is kinder to them. Allison From harper at secureoutcomesinc.com Mon Jul 23 10:49:16 2018 From: harper at secureoutcomesinc.com (Jack Harper) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 09:49:16 -0600 Subject: 68k development, Avocet Development In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Greetings to the List - Carlo, I have been using IDE68K out of Norway for about five years and it is excellent: http://home.kpn.nl/pj.fondse/ide68k/ It includes the 68020 instructions such as bit instructions etc - also floating point. I only use the assembler and download S-records to the MVME177-005 boards that I use. I have never found any bugs etc. Best, Jack At 12:46 PM 7/20/2018, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >hi >does anyone happen to use Avocet Development Tools for m68k? >how good/bad is it? ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jack Harper, President Secure Outcomes Inc 2942 Evergreen Parkway, Suite 300 Evergreen, Colorado 80439 USA 303.670.8375 303.670.3750 (fax) http://www.secureoutcomes.net for Product Info. From mmcgraw74 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 14:22:38 2018 From: mmcgraw74 at gmail.com (Monty McGraw) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:22:38 -0500 Subject: Looking for Tektronix 4052 R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack and Tektronix 4014 demo files In-Reply-To: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> References: <564931cc-ec55-3fe6-8fe3-e9a85a8b76ae@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: Bob, Thanks for the link! I downloaded the files and made my own 4052R12 Graphics Enhancement ROM Pack this weekend - and it works :) Here is a thread where I discuss what this cartridge does: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64863-Tektronix-4051-and-4052-R12-Enhanced-Graphics-ROM-Pack Monty On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:27 AM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Al has the 4052R12 ROM dumps up on bitsavers. > > Bob > > > On 7/15/2018 12:49 PM, Monty McGraw via cctalk wrote: > >> I have been recovering dozens of old Tektronix 4050 series tapes and found >> one with Fast Graphics software for the 4051. This software program >> jumped >> into 6800 assembly code and retrieved three bytes per vector from a tape >> file. Apparently this tape is a duplicate - and it appears that all the >> files bigger than 1KB have corrupt data. >> >> Apparently from the 4014 programmers guide - they had a set of demo >> picture >> files including a list with R2-D2. >> >> I have found Jos Dreesen's ftp tar file with some 4014 pictures - but I'm >> looking for an R2-D2 picture file that is on the tape I have but corrupt. >> >> I also discovered that Tektronix made a 4052/4054 R12 Graphics Enhancement >> ROM pack which included the Fast Graphics program in ROM. I would love to >> find one of those ROM packs - hint/hint :) >> >> I did recover one of the shorter picture files of Snoopy - but since I >> don't have a 4051, I can't run the Fast Graphics program on my 4052 or >> 4054. One of my buddies threw a C program together to convert the data >> file into Tek 4050 PRINT statements. >> >> I've posted the SNOOPY basic program and screenshots of running it on >> vcfed >> in a new thread: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?64726-Tektronix- >> 4051-4052-4052A-4054-4054A-Program-Archives >> >> I'm also still looking for a 4051/4052 Display Board. Mike Haas posted >> pictures here in Oct 2016 of lots of Tektronix boards including a Display >> Board - but I don't have any direct contact info for him. >> >> Monty >> >> > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 14:26:09 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:26:09 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <941ecf82-86ef-5df6-9ca8-22d22f77e559@sydex.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <941ecf82-86ef-5df6-9ca8-22d22f77e559@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:48 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I think that the use of tapes in the 23rd century justifies their > reputation for durability: > > http://memory-alpha.wikia.com/wiki/Microtape Very impressive, since Microtape was first sold in 1963, as an enhancement over the previous LINCtape (ca. 1961). From teoz at neo.rr.com Mon Jul 23 14:57:21 2018 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:57:21 -0400 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> Message-ID: <9A19623CCBFD46798745BB5614C98669@teoPC> What kind of media is it DVD+R or DVD-R? I think DVD-R (Pioneer) came first and all the original DVD burners support it and it is the most reliable if you are making movies for older DVD players. DVD+R is a Sony and Phillips design and the recording format is different. The last generation of DVD recorders is +/- but anything IDE would probably be DVD-R only and might have issues reading + disks. -----Original Message----- From: Ali via cctalk Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:55 PM To: 'Fred Cisin' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? > Does anybody here have experience with "M-Disc"? > > It is available up to 100GB BDXL! > Drives start at less than $100; media is prices vary - the 100GB starts > at > about $20 each, but the low capacity versions are bordering on > competitive. Fred, I have used M-Disc to archive photos and digital media. So far so good. Problem is you need an M-Disc drive to read it for sure - what does that mean? Well the disc is supposed to be compatible across all DVD readers BUT I have found my older Lite-On IDE drives, which were considered very good back in the day, have had problems reading the DVDs. So your mileage may vary... Also of note the original company has gone bankrupt and their assets bought out. The new owners are continuing to produce M-Disc media. -Ali --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From carlojpisani at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 15:20:30 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:20:30 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <9A19623CCBFD46798745BB5614C98669@teoPC> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> <9A19623CCBFD46798745BB5614C98669@teoPC> Message-ID: what about DVD-RAM? are they good about data-reliability? cost: - SCSI DVD-RAM reader/writer, say about 180-240 euro, brand new - DVD-RAM cartridge (disk + caddy), say about 20 euro per 5 disks, brand new how long does a DVD-RAM last? 4.5Gbyte per disk is ok for me, I need to archive my source code 2018-07-23 21:57 GMT+02:00 TeoZ via cctalk : > What kind of media is it DVD+R or DVD-R? I think DVD-R (Pioneer) came first > and all the original DVD burners support it and it is the most reliable if > you are making movies for older DVD players. DVD+R is a Sony and Phillips > design and the recording format is different. > > The last generation of DVD recorders is +/- but anything IDE would probably > be DVD-R only and might have issues reading + disks. > > -----Original Message----- From: Ali via cctalk > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:55 PM > To: 'Fred Cisin' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? > > >> Does anybody here have experience with "M-Disc"? >> >> It is available up to 100GB BDXL! >> Drives start at less than $100; media is prices vary - the 100GB starts >> at >> about $20 each, but the low capacity versions are bordering on >> competitive. > > > Fred, > > I have used M-Disc to archive photos and digital media. So far so good. > Problem is you need an M-Disc drive to read it for sure - what does that > mean? Well the disc is supposed to be compatible across all DVD readers BUT > I have found my older Lite-On IDE drives, which were considered very good > back in the day, have had problems reading the DVDs. So your mileage may > vary... > > Also of note the original company has gone bankrupt and their assets bought > out. The new owners are continuing to produce M-Disc media. > > -Ali > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From healyzh at avanthar.com Mon Jul 23 15:38:48 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 13:38:48 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> <9A19623CCBFD46798745BB5614C98669@teoPC> Message-ID: <346E684D-64A5-4447-BE16-F20A418B88F0@avanthar.com> > On Jul 23, 2018, at 1:20 PM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > > what about DVD-RAM? > are they good about data-reliability? > > cost: > - SCSI DVD-RAM reader/writer, say about 180-240 euro, brand new > - DVD-RAM cartridge (disk + caddy), say about 20 euro per 5 disks, brand new > > how long does a DVD-RAM last? > > 4.5Gbyte per disk is ok for me, I need to archive my source code I realize this is the CLASSICCMP mail list, however, when talking about archiving data today, why would you use classic tech, rather than modern tech? If you?re looking at a SCSI DVD-RAM drive, I don?t care that it?s ?new?, I start to wonder, just how *OLD* it is. Sure it might be ?New Old Stock (NOS)", but it might also be ?Dead on Arrival (DOA)?. If you are trying to archive data on ?Classic? hardware, if it has SCSI, then it surely has network, and the ability to move your data to modern hardware. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 23 16:07:42 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:07:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <003801d422b6$cc9731c0$65c59540$@net> Message-ID: >> Does anybody here have experience with "M-Disc"? >> It is available up to 100GB BDXL! >> Drives start at less than $100; media is prices vary - the 100GB starts >> at about $20 each, but the low capacity versions are bordering on >> competitive. On Mon, 23 Jul 2018, Ali wrote: > I have used M-Disc to archive photos and digital media. So far so good. > Problem is you need an M-Disc drive to read it for sure - what does that > mean? Well the disc is supposed to be compatible across all DVD readers BUT > I have found my older Lite-On IDE drives, which were considered very good > back in the day, have had problems reading the DVDs. So your mileage may > vary... Thank you. OK, that is alarming. The claim that the discs produced are fully compatible is bogus. That was an essential requirement. Next aspect would be whether they are completely incompatible with EVERYTHING other than M-Disc, or just SOME types of drives, and if so, WHICH ones. >From what I've read, the difference in drive between BDXL and BDXL M-Disc is trivial enough that there is no reason that ALL BDXL wouldn't go that way, unless there are patent issues. > Also of note the original company has gone bankrupt and their assets bought > out. The new owners are continuing to produce M-Disc media. The drives are being made by LG, Pioneer, etc., so that part is OK. The media is being manufactured by Verbatim, Memorex, ? Does the demise of the original company, and hence the licenses, place the ability of Verbatim, Memorex, etc. to make the media at risk? (or only the legal rights to use the logo?) Is the new owner more stable, and/or did Verbatim, Memorex, et al, at least negotiate contract provisions for continuation of license after demise of licensors? Is anybody else doing any significant work towards long-life media? We need ongoing supply, continuation of compatable hardware, and adequate (non-"trade-secret") documentation - without Belafon, we've lost the knowledge, and have to speculate, exactly what his hardware does. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Jul 23 16:11:16 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 14:11:16 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <003a01d422c9$b3b6a790$1b23f6b0$@net> > Probably a good idea to use something like RAR with parity. I know I > have > downloaded some multi-segment binaries in RAR format from usenet with > several missing segments and as long as I had the parity file set it > could > successfully recover the entire archive. Parity will only take you so far. It is the same as RAID - you can only tolerate so many disk failures before the whole thing collapses like a house of cards. It works well w/ UseNet because usually the errors are small compared to the data set. However, if you were missing say three RAR files out of six then one PAR file is not going to save you. -Ali From rp at servium.ch Mon Jul 23 17:20:46 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:20:46 -0700 Subject: MVME188 backplane jumpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Assuming the MVME188 must also work in an backplane that has automatic IACK/BG bypass, you would remove them in all slots that have a board installed. AFAIK nothing gets damaged if you get it wrong, it's just that VME cards further back on the bus won't work properly. On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 12:55 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does somebody know how to set the IACK and BG backplane jumpers for the > MVME188 CPU? Remove them all? Leave them in behind the memory and/or cpu > board(s)? Something else? All the documentation I can find are for the > normal VME SBCs, which the 188 isn't. > > Thanks! > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > > From rp at servium.ch Mon Jul 23 17:20:46 2018 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 15:20:46 -0700 Subject: MVME188 backplane jumpers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Assuming the MVME188 must also work in an backplane that has automatic IACK/BG bypass, you would remove them in all slots that have a board installed. AFAIK nothing gets damaged if you get it wrong, it's just that VME cards further back on the bus won't work properly. On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 12:55 AM, r.stricklin via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Does somebody know how to set the IACK and BG backplane jumpers for the > MVME188 CPU? Remove them all? Leave them in behind the memory and/or cpu > board(s)? Something else? All the documentation I can find are for the > normal VME SBCs, which the 188 isn't. > > Thanks! > > ok > bear. > > -- > until further notice > > From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 18:02:18 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:02:18 -0500 Subject: SDL and SunOS In-Reply-To: References: <94f38f15-c8e0-a35f-41b0-d8660667a954@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7533a537-b312-3af0-074b-1c4e5982d1d0@gmail.com> Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 21 Jul 2018, carlos_murillo at ieee.org wrote: >> Under SunOS 4.1.4, the last gcc version that is supported is 3.3.6, >> but I haven't been able to build it on an IPX;? it gets to the point >> where it > Not quite true: > > # uname -a > SunOS azu 4.1.1 10 sun4 unknown unknown SunOS > > # gcc -v > Reading specs from /ibm/usr/lib/gcc/sparc-sun-sunos4.1.1/3.4.6/specs > Configured with: ../gcc-3.4.6/configure --prefix=/ibm/usr > --program-suffix=-3.4 --with-gnu-ld --with-ld=/ibm/usr/bin/ld > --with-gnu-as --with-as=/ibm/usr/bin/as --with-cpu=v7 --disable-nls > --with-libiconv-prefix=/ibm/usr --enable-obsolete > Thread model: single > gcc version 3.4.6 - > This is on a SUN 4/260 with 32MB RAM. > >> starts running gengtype and eats all memory available (I have 64MB >> RAM and have added as much as 1024 swap and it still crashes).? So, >> for the time > > Yes, there are such issues. The solution is to cross compile it with > distcc. > > Christian I stand corrected, 3.4.6 is indeed that last gcc to support SunOS 4.1.x .? I was typing from memory and I tried so many gcc versions that I lost track.? All attempts at building gcc versions > 3.2.3 <= 3.4.6 failed because of the memory issues in the gengtype execution.? And, the last version not to use the gengtype kludge was 3.2.3; for that version the build process advances further,? but it fails when building libstdc++ with xgcc? (the file is bitset.cc). Thanks for the suggestion; I'll need to learn how to build the cross-compiler.? Do you have any quick advice on how to go about it? carlos. From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Jul 23 20:04:44 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:04:44 -0500 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <552C1876-F1CA-4A44-BB11-62B918C29C84@lunar-tokyo.net> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> <552C1876-F1CA-4A44-BB11-62B918C29C84@lunar-tokyo.net> Message-ID: <5B567B2C.3090307@pico-systems.com> On 07/22/2018 03:59 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > Status update: > > They let me go home Thursday but I was too wiped out to post about it. Things are still pretty fluid, there were some complications, but they?re being managed. I was on the waitlist for 5 years and 4 months, they listed me immediately on diagnosis. I got the transplant through OSF, they are one of the better hospitals here in downstate Illinois. That they have maintained that status given the state?s extreme distress should say all that need be said. > > All the well-wishes are extremely appreciated. Friday the 13th now has a whole new meaning. > > All the best! it may be a long haul to get back to full operation, but having one good kidney is WAY better than zero! Jon From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Jul 23 20:13:08 2018 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 18:13:08 -0700 Subject: Got a kidney! In-Reply-To: <5B567B2C.3090307@pico-systems.com> References: <732D4C04-A5AA-4273-91EB-E42EB4881D87@lunar-tokyo.net> <552C1876-F1CA-4A44-BB11-62B918C29C84@lunar-tokyo.net> <5B567B2C.3090307@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: That's great news I had myself set up as a doner on anything they wanted. But in February I was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer which disqualify me as an organ donor for obvious reasons. I'm still so amazed how few people our donors here in Oregon you just have the back of your driver's license checked off just simple as that like I said it boggles the mind that's so few people are donors. Again congratulations On Mon, Jul 23, 2018, 6:04 PM Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 07/22/2018 03:59 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk wrote: > > Status update: > > > > They let me go home Thursday but I was too wiped out to post about it. > Things are still pretty fluid, there were some complications, but they?re > being managed. I was on the waitlist for 5 years and 4 months, they listed > me immediately on diagnosis. I got the transplant through OSF, they are one > of the better hospitals here in downstate Illinois. That they have > maintained that status given the state?s extreme distress should say all > that need be said. > > > > All the well-wishes are extremely appreciated. Friday the 13th now has a > whole new meaning. > > > > > All the best! it may be a long haul to get back to full > operation, but having one good kidney is WAY better than zero! > > Jon > > From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 23 20:31:49 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:31:49 -0400 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <01QV4PQ01UA00011OG@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <164c9e9ef7d-c98-a3f@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> And? if? ?you? collect hp.? which...? ?we? do? of? course at? SMECC? so need to hear? if? you? qall have any of? this. ? The scanjet? ?BW? is? ?first? HP...? and? ?scanject 2c? is? first? color scanner? hp always? accepting? gifts? of these? 2. ? IN? hp lasers? ? 2686a? ?first HP laser...? ? ? then there is a? first? color? laser? HP? too ( if? you can lift it.) ? Would also suggest saving and? we need a? clean one? ?hp? 500? which? was a? 2886a? with a? bunch of? bins? was? damn? expensive? ?so not a lot? of them around compared to? 2886a ? Office jet.... hp? officejet ( no suffex? ? had? deskjet? ?printer? in? it.? ? was? first as I? remember ? HP? Paint jet? ?first? color....? we need one...? uses? tracer feed? paper.? just? found? my old? sales? binder? for it? with all the? samples etc? as? issued? by hp ? ? NEED? HP 3000? cx? series? II? series III? Model? 30? model? 40? etc etc etc ? ? ? Looking for? ? HP? VECTRA? Has bizzare? moue? interface etc... ? HP? 150 -? WORKING? OF? NOT? PLUS - -Looking? ?for? any AND? ALL hp? 150? PARTS? PIECES SALES? LIT? ? POSTERS? WITH MONARCH BUTTERFLY? ETC... ? Looking? ?for? ?some? HP? calc? stuff Looking? for? HP? 110? portable? and portable? plus? ?also? NEED VECTRA? CS PORTABLE (Bless its? wretched? soul!) ? ? I? guess if? it? ?says? HP? would? like to? hear? about it. ? ? HEY LOOKING? FOR? ANY? ?ADVERTISING? ITEMS? FROM? COMPUTER EXCHANGE? PHX? TOO! ? Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC ( Retired? CEO? Computer Exchange? ?Phx? ?AZ) ? ? In a message dated 7/21/2018 2:37:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > > It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. > Except for the scanners. > The scanners shouldn't have to be regarded as (Vintage) Generic PC Crap. For example, I wrote a hack for the (possibly un-aptly named) SANE scanner software to let it drive a SCSI scanner from VAX/VMS... (I wouldn't mind having another SCSI scanner to play with if it wasn't on the wrong side of the Atlantic.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 23 20:32:31 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:32:31 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?And=C2=A0_if=C2=A0_=C2=A0you=C2=A0_collect_hp.=C2=A0_w?= =?UTF-8?Q?hich...=C2=A0_=C2=A0we=C2=A0_do=C2=A0_of=C2=A0_course_a?= =?UTF-8?Q?t=C2=A0_SMECC=C2=A0_so_need_to_hear=C2=A0_if?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0_you=C2=A0_qall_have_any_of=C2=A0_this.?= Message-ID: <164c9ea9500-c9a-aad@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> And? if? ?you? collect hp.? which...? ?we? do? of? course at? SMECC? so need to hear? if? you? all have any of? this. ? The scanjet? ?BW? is? ?first? HP...? and? ?scanject 2c? is? first? color scanner? hp always? accepting? gifts? of these? 2. ? IN? hp lasers? ? 2686a? ?first HP laser...? ? ? then there is a? first? color? laser? HP? too ( if? you can lift it.) ? Would also suggest saving and? we need a? clean one? ?hp? 500? which? was a? 2886a? with a? bunch of? bins? was? damn? expensive? ?so not a lot? of them around compared to? 2886a ? Office jet.... hp? officejet ( no suffex? ? had? deskjet? ?printer? in? it.? ? was? first as I? remember ? HP? Paint jet? ?first? color....? we need one...? uses? tracer feed? paper.? just? found? my old? sales? binder? for it? with all the? samples etc? as? issued? by hp ? ? NEED? HP 3000? cx? series? II? series III? Model? 30? model? 40? etc etc etc ? ? ? Looking for? ? HP? VECTRA? Has bizzare? moue? interface etc... ? HP? 150 -? WORKING? OF? NOT? PLUS - -Looking? ?for? any AND? ALL hp? 150? PARTS? PIECES SALES? LIT? ? POSTERS? WITH MONARCH BUTTERFLY? ETC... ? Looking? ?for? ?some? HP? calc? stuff Looking? for? HP? 110? portable? and portable? plus? ?also? NEED VECTRA? CS PORTABLE (Bless its? wretched? soul!) ? ? I? guess if? it? ?says? HP? would? like to? hear? about it. ? ? HEY LOOKING? FOR? ANY? ?ADVERTISING? ITEMS? FROM? COMPUTER EXCHANGE? PHX? TOO! ? Ed Sharpe Archivist? for SMECC ( Retired? CEO? Computer Exchange? ?Phx? ?AZ) From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 20:44:38 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:44:38 +1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_And=C2=A0_if=C2=A0_=C2=A0you=C2=A0_collect_hp.?= =?utf-8?Q?=C2=A0_which...=C2=A0_=C2=A0we=C2=A0_do=C2=A0_of=C2=A0?= =?utf-8?Q?_course_at=C2=A0_SMECC=C2=A0_so_need_to_hear=C2=A0_if?= =?utf-8?Q?=C2=A0_you=C2=A0_qall_have_any_of=C2=A0_this.?= In-Reply-To: <164c9ea9500-c9a-aad@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164c9ea9500-c9a-aad@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <636944EA-E41D-4B12-A84F-F65678D94F7A@gmail.com> I have a 3000 Series 70... but it?s in Australia! David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 24 Jul 2018, at 11:32 am, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > > And if you collect hp. which... we do of course at SMECC so need to hear if you all have any of this. > > > > The scanjet BW is first HP... and scanject 2c is first color scanner hp > always accepting gifts of these 2. > > IN hp lasers > 2686a first HP laser... then there is a first color laser HP too ( if you can lift it.) > > Would also suggest saving and we need a clean one hp 500 which was a 2886a with a bunch of bins was damn expensive so not a lot of them around compared to 2886a > > Office jet.... hp officejet ( no suffex had deskjet printer in it. was first as I remember > > HP Paint jet first color.... we need one... uses tracer feed paper. just found my old sales binder for it with all the samples etc as issued by hp > > > NEED HP 3000 cx series II series III Model 30 model 40 etc etc etc > > > > Looking for HP VECTRA Has bizzare moue interface etc... > > HP 150 - WORKING OF NOT PLUS - -Looking for any AND ALL hp 150 PARTS PIECES SALES LIT POSTERS WITH MONARCH BUTTERFLY ETC... > > Looking for some HP calc stuff > Looking for HP 110 portable and portable plus also > NEED VECTRA CS PORTABLE (Bless its wretched soul!) > > > I guess if it says HP would like to hear about it. > > > HEY LOOKING FOR ANY ADVERTISING ITEMS FROM COMPUTER EXCHANGE PHX TOO! > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC ( Retired CEO Computer Exchange Phx AZ) From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 23 20:58:46 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 21:58:46 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Re:_And=C2=A0_if=C2=A0_=C2=A0you=C2=A0_collect_hp.?= =?UTF-8?Q?=C2=A0_which...=C2=A0_=C2=A0we=C2=A0_do=C2=A0_of=C2=A0_course?= =?UTF-8?Q?_at=C2=A0_SMECC=C2=A0_so_need_to_hear=C2=A0_i?= =?UTF-8?Q?f=C2=A0_you=C2=A0_qall_have_any_of=C2=A0_this.?= In-Reply-To: <636944EA-E41D-4B12-A84F-F65678D94F7A@gmail.com> Message-ID: <164ca029917-c9a-b96@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> Darn! Alas? the? freight? would? be? a killer... Ed# In a message dated 7/23/2018 6:44:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, davidkcollins2 at gmail.com writes: ? I have a 3000 Series 70... but it?s in Australia! David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 24 Jul 2018, at 11:32 am, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > > And if you collect hp. which... we do of course at SMECC so need to hear if you all have any of this. > > > > The scanjet BW is first HP... and scanject 2c is first color scanner hp > always accepting gifts of these 2. > > IN hp lasers > 2686a first HP laser... then there is a first color laser HP too ( if you can lift it.) > > Would also suggest saving and we need a clean one hp 500 which was a 2886a with a bunch of bins was damn expensive so not a lot of them around compared to 2886a > > Office jet.... hp officejet ( no suffex had deskjet printer in it. was first as I remember > > HP Paint jet first color.... we need one... uses tracer feed paper. just found my old sales binder for it with all the samples etc as issued by hp > > > NEED HP 3000 cx series II series III Model 30 model 40 etc etc etc > > > > Looking for HP VECTRA Has bizzare moue interface etc... > > HP 150 - WORKING OF NOT PLUS - -Looking for any AND ALL hp 150 PARTS PIECES SALES LIT POSTERS WITH MONARCH BUTTERFLY ETC... > > Looking for some HP calc stuff > Looking for HP 110 portable and portable plus also > NEED VECTRA CS PORTABLE (Bless its wretched soul!) > > > I guess if it says HP would like to hear about it. > > > HEY LOOKING FOR ANY ADVERTISING ITEMS FROM COMPUTER EXCHANGE PHX TOO! > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC ( Retired CEO Computer Exchange Phx AZ) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Mon Jul 23 21:06:15 2018 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:06:15 -0600 Subject: =?UTF-8?B?UmU6IEFuZMKgIGlmwqAgwqB5b3XCoCBjb2xsZWN0IGhwLsKgIHdoaWNo?= =?UTF-8?B?Li4uwqAgwqB3ZcKgIGRvwqAgb2bCoCBjb3Vyc2UgYXTCoCBTTUVDQ8KgIHNvIG5l?= =?UTF-8?Q?ed_to_hear=c2=a0_if=c2=a0_you=c2=a0_qall_have_any_of=c2=a0_this.?= In-Reply-To: <164ca029917-c9a-b96@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164ca029917-c9a-b96@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: On 7/23/2018 7:58 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > Darn! Alas? the? freight? would? be? a killer... Ed# > Is that you moving the computer to the USA or you moving yourself and all your stuff to OZ. I suspect that freight would still be afordable because it would go ship rather than overnight. Ben. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 23 22:26:22 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 20:26:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Printerworks? Message-ID: Has printerworks gone under? Their website is unresponsive. Does anybody have scans of their CX and SX "catalogs"? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 23:04:30 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 14:04:30 +1000 Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Re:_And=C2=A0_if=C2=A0_=C2=A0you=C2=A0_collect_hp.?= =?utf-8?Q?=C2=A0_which...=C2=A0_=C2=A0we=C2=A0_do=C2=A0_of=C2=A0?= =?utf-8?Q?_course_at=C2=A0_SMECC=C2=A0_so_need_to_hear=C2=A0_if?= =?utf-8?Q?=C2=A0_you=C2=A0_qall_have_any_of=C2=A0_this.?= In-Reply-To: References: <164ca029917-c9a-b96@webjas-vac210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <8319CCDD-5984-45CA-B500-552A4C87AD03@gmail.com> No more room in Oz! David Collins +61 424 785 131 > On 24 Jul 2018, at 12:06 pm, ben via cctalk wrote: > >> On 7/23/2018 7:58 PM, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> Darn! Alas the freight would be a killer... Ed# > Is that you moving the computer to the USA or you moving > yourself and all your stuff to OZ. I suspect that freight would still > be afordable because it would go ship rather than overnight. > Ben. > > > From ftg888 at elbonia.org Mon Jul 23 23:49:28 2018 From: ftg888 at elbonia.org (ftg888) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 06:49:28 +0200 Subject: Courier Modems (Was: Landfill? In-Reply-To: <164c9e9ef7d-c98-a3f@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164c9e9ef7d-c98-a3f@webjas-vac177.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <09EE9C5C-33EE-4715-8195-918BE5C897E4@elbonia.org> Unsubscribe > On 24 Jul 2018, at 03:31, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > > And if you collect hp. which... we do of course at SMECC so need to hear if you qall have any of this. > > > > The scanjet BW is first HP... and scanject 2c is first color scanner hp > always accepting gifts of these 2. > > IN hp lasers > 2686a first HP laser... then there is a first color laser HP too ( if you can lift it.) > > Would also suggest saving and we need a clean one hp 500 which was a 2886a with a bunch of bins was damn expensive so not a lot of them around compared to 2886a > > Office jet.... hp officejet ( no suffex had deskjet printer in it. was first as I remember > > HP Paint jet first color.... we need one... uses tracer feed paper. just found my old sales binder for it with all the samples etc as issued by hp > > > NEED HP 3000 cx series II series III Model 30 model 40 etc etc etc > > > > Looking for HP VECTRA Has bizzare moue interface etc... > > HP 150 - WORKING OF NOT PLUS - -Looking for any AND ALL hp 150 PARTS PIECES SALES LIT POSTERS WITH MONARCH BUTTERFLY ETC... > > Looking for some HP calc stuff > Looking for HP 110 portable and portable plus also > NEED VECTRA CS PORTABLE (Bless its wretched soul!) > > > I guess if it says HP would like to hear about it. > > > HEY LOOKING FOR ANY ADVERTISING ITEMS FROM COMPUTER EXCHANGE PHX TOO! > > Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC ( Retired CEO Computer Exchange Phx AZ) > > > In a message dated 7/21/2018 2:37:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > >> > >> It would appear that there ARE people who want Vintage Generic PC Crap. >> Except for the scanners. >> > > The scanners shouldn't have to be regarded as (Vintage) Generic PC Crap. > > For example, I wrote a hack for the (possibly un-aptly named) SANE scanner > software to let it drive a SCSI scanner from VAX/VMS... > > (I wouldn't mind having another SCSI scanner to play with if it wasn't on the > wrong side of the Atlantic.) > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From syseng at gfsys.co.uk Mon Jul 23 16:46:51 2018 From: syseng at gfsys.co.uk (Chris Quayle) Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2018 22:46:51 +0100 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5B564CCB.2020308@gfsys.co.uk> > Message: 1 > Date: Sun, 22 Jul 2018 09:22:25 -0400 (EDT) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 > Message-ID: <20180722132225.49A0B18C096 at mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > > > From: Paul Birkel > > > ABLE Computer Technology. Their first product was PN 10001 ... the > > A.C.T. Univerter > > This board is not shown in any of the Able brochures we have: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/able/brochures/ > > However, Able info is _very_ thin on the ground, now... > > Noel There was a Univerter and Qniverter (sp) which were used to translate from unibus to qbus.Very useful boards and used one to translate from vax730, vms 4.3 to a qbus expansion box, so I could use an RQDX3 and RD53 as vms boot. Just set up the dipswitches and it works automagically at power on. May have docs somewhere, but not sure where... Chris From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Jul 23 23:57:21 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:57:21 -0400 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 References: <20180722180728.A7C7C18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <033c01d4230a$ce702c50$6b5084f0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: Paul Birkel [mailto:pbirkel at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: RE: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 ... >From the ABLE marketing literature: CACHE/ 45 (CACHE BUFFER MEMORY) INSTALLS IN: PDP-11/45, -11/50 and -11/55 CAPACITY: 2048 byte (1 K word). ENHANCEMENT FACTOR: Run time reductions to 50% (100% speed improvement) are achievable. CACHE PARITY: Automatically goes off-line in event of any data error. RANGE SELECTION: User may optimize hit ratio by upper/lower limit switch settings. SPECIAL FEATURE: Cache/ 45 can be enabled via software or console switches. Presumably that's what Mattis has in-hand. ----- https://books.google.com/books?id=hYD3sny2NzEC&pg=PA23&lpg=PA23&dq=ABLE+Comp uter+technology+ACT+DEC+%22CACHE/45%22&source=bl&ots=b15iACJbMd&sig=oLMrJMn2 qEFmxiKSMIhpLF5qYnk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcyvzi87TcAhVOw1kKHdc5A8kQ6AEwAHoE CAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=ABLE%20Computer%20technology%20ACT%20DEC%20%22CACHE%2F45% 22&f=false Computerworld, Page 23, July 26, 1976 ACT Has PDP-11/45 Buffer SANTA ANA, Calif. - Able Computer Technology (ACT) has a 2K-byte cache buffer for use with the Digital Equipment Corp. POP-11/45. The Cache/45 is contained on a single printed circuit board that plugs into the system's chassis. Buffer control is provided over every core memory address location on the Unibus. A switch within the memory buffer permits a choice of either on-line or off-line operation, the company said. The buffer costs $7 ,000. ACT is at I 538-E Chestnut St., Santa Ana, Calif. 92705. (Somewhat strange use of the expressions "on-line" and "off-line" operation, IMO.) I presume that the reason for "single printed circuit board" is that only a single "normal" slot is occupied. paul From useddec at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 00:23:57 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 00:23:57 -0500 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <033c01d4230a$ce702c50$6b5084f0$@gmail.com> References: <20180722180728.A7C7C18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <033c01d4230a$ce702c50$6b5084f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: At one time DEC left it up to the branches whether or not to maintain non-DEC parts. The switch would help by disabling the device while running diags and doing other maintenance. Nobody wanted to be liable if a non-DEC board had to be pulled. Paul On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 11:57 PM, Paul Birkel via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul Birkel [mailto:pbirkel at gmail.com] > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2018 2:36 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: RE: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 > > ... > > From the ABLE marketing literature: > > CACHE/ 45 (CACHE BUFFER MEMORY) INSTALLS IN: PDP-11/45, -11/50 and -11/55 > CAPACITY: 2048 byte (1 K word). > ENHANCEMENT FACTOR: Run time reductions to 50% (100% speed improvement) are > achievable. > CACHE PARITY: Automatically goes off-line in event of any data error. > RANGE SELECTION: User may optimize hit ratio by upper/lower limit switch > settings. > SPECIAL FEATURE: Cache/ 45 can be enabled via software or console switches. > > Presumably that's what Mattis has in-hand. > > ----- > > https://books.google.com/books?id=hYD3sny2NzEC&pg=PA23& > lpg=PA23&dq=ABLE+Comp > uter+technology+ACT+DEC+%22CACHE/45%22&source=bl&ots= > b15iACJbMd&sig=oLMrJMn2 > qEFmxiKSMIhpLF5qYnk&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcyvzi87TcAhVOw1kKHdc5A > 8kQ6AEwAHoE > CAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=ABLE%20Computer%20technology%20ACT% > 20DEC%20%22CACHE%2F45% > 22&f=false > > Computerworld, Page 23, July 26, 1976 > > ACT Has PDP-11/45 Buffer > SANTA ANA, Calif. - Able Computer Technology (ACT) has a 2K-byte cache > buffer for use with the Digital Equipment Corp. POP-11/45. > The Cache/45 is contained on a single printed circuit board that plugs into > the > system's chassis. > Buffer control is provided over every core memory address location on the > Unibus. A switch within the memory buffer permits a choice of either > on-line > or off-line operation, the company said. > The buffer costs $7 ,000. ACT is at I 538-E Chestnut St., Santa Ana, Calif. > 92705. > > (Somewhat strange use of the expressions "on-line" and "off-line" > operation, > IMO.) > > I presume that the reason for "single printed circuit board" is that only a > single "normal" slot is occupied. > > paul > > From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 03:55:40 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:55:40 +0200 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? Message-ID: Hello! I have two RK05J-AA as part of a system that I guess has been imported used form the US. A DC-10 simulator. The only difference is the pulley, the motor position and a 230 / 115 V jumper inside. Is there anyone in 60Hz land that has the opposite problem and want to trade two spindle pulleys? The good thing for me that I would guess that it possible to use a lathe to get the diameter down to the correct 50Hz diameter. On the other hand going from 50Hz to 60 Hz is tougher... Then there is a PC05 that has the wrong number of grooves on the motor pulley. Apparently it should be 16 instead of 20. Now in 50Hz land the only difference is that the punch would be slower than it should be. Using a 50Hz punch in 60Hz area might get you into problems, so maybe there is someone here as well that want to do a trade? /Mattis From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 05:25:22 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:25:22 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <003a01d422c9$b3b6a790$1b23f6b0$@net> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <003a01d422c9$b3b6a790$1b23f6b0$@net> Message-ID: has anyone ever used Iomega Rev as backup media? how good is that? 2018-07-23 23:11 GMT+02:00 Ali via cctalk : >> Probably a good idea to use something like RAR with parity. I know I >> have >> downloaded some multi-segment binaries in RAR format from usenet with >> several missing segments and as long as I had the parity file set it >> could >> successfully recover the entire archive. > > Parity will only take you so far. It is the same as RAID - you can only tolerate so many disk failures before the whole thing collapses like a house of cards. It works well w/ UseNet because usually the errors are small compared to the data set. However, if you were missing say three RAR files out of six then one PAR file is not going to save you. > > -Ali > From steven at malikoff.com Tue Jul 24 05:56:06 2018 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:56:06 +1000 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Mattis said > I have two RK05J-AA as part of a system that I guess has been imported used > form the US. A DC-10 simulator. > > The only difference is the pulley, the motor position and a 230 / 115 V > jumper inside. > > Is there anyone in 60Hz land that has the opposite problem and want to > trade two spindle pulleys? > > The good thing for me that I would guess that it possible to use a lathe to > get the diameter down to the correct 50Hz diameter. On the other hand going > from 50Hz to 60 Hz is tougher... > > Then there is a PC05 that has the wrong number of grooves on the motor > pulley. Apparently it should be 16 instead of 20. > > Now in 50Hz land the only difference is that the punch would be slower than > it should be. Using a 50Hz punch in 60Hz area might get you into problems, > so maybe there is someone here as well that want to do a trade? I relish these sorts of problems. If you have a digital caliper to take some measurements and could sketch it up roughly, I can draw it up in CAD. Photos would help determine how complicated the machining job would be. I wonder if a 3D printed one might work? A pulley couldn't be too challenging depending on how it is fixed to the spindle. If by grubscrews then that would require a metal boss or flange as the plastic would not likely be be strong enough for grubscrew threads to withstand the torque. However if it's just clamped with a large axial nut and washer on the spindle it could be ok. Of course if you can trade for the right ones, that would be best of all :) Steve. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 24 12:55:05 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:55:05 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <522bdd54-8337-2fe5-a328-7e1d4c47fea5@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/22/18 2:06 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > I wouldn?t touch 4mm DAT tapes with a ten foot pole, if I can help > it. I?ve used them in the past, but only in special cases, OR more > importantly when forced to. I had reasonable success with DDS2 & DDS3 DATs back in the day. I routinely wrote to and read from the tapes over about 18 months. Though I have no idea how well they would last longer term than that. QIC-80 drives were really before me, but I did manage to pick some up from garage sales and read their contents 5+ years after they were written. I usually had to retention the tapes one (or more) time(s) to be able to get a (few) good reads off of them. I do think they earned their reputation that I've heard others talk about. That being said, CuriousMark is having decent luck with QIC cartridges in his old HP equipment. > You can?t buy new LTO2 or DLT drives (I think the last DLT drives > were DLT8000?s). Even Super-DLT tapes are obsolete. I've got no personal experience with DLT. I have multiple colleagues that used them to backup multiple servers (before I entered the scene). > At this point, for tape, I recommend LTO8, and if this is for > Archival purposes, you?ll need to refresh to LTO9 when released. > LTO8 introduces an evil little gotcha. While previous versions of > the drives, have been able to read two versions back, LTO8 can?t. All of my professional experience with tape has been decidedly non-archival. It was always used for nightly / weekly / monthly backups and consumed within 18 months. > I?ve failed to see any reason behind your questions. If you?re > looking for a long-term archival solution, look to cloud storage > (either on-prem, or off-prem). Sure tape is cheap, but when you > start looking at other costs, such as storage and handling, it > becomes expensive. I think you need to be EXTREMELY careful when selecting cloud storage vendors. I've heard about a fewer smaller ones folding up shop. I want to say I've heard of at least one going away fast enough that people had problems getting their data back. So, make sure you pick one that is reputable and / or guarantees time to retrieve data that you have stored with them. > This touches on one of my personal projects this year. I virtualized > my backup infrastructure for my OpenVMS systems, and then I went a > step further, and have virtualized most of my OpenVMS environment. I > still need to virtualize my DECnet area router. While all the data > is moved, I?m still working to move some apps. It makes protecting > my data easy. My primary interest is the OS and software, while in > the past I?ve been focused on running on real hardware, > virtualization is looking real nice, even for working systems where I > have plenty of spares. I would love to know more about how you did this. Do you have any blog articles or the likes that I can read to learn? -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 24 12:55:15 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:55:15 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180723155158.GB24301@thangorodrim.de> References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> <18e984a8-c8a3-099f-18db-392632a73494@sydex.com> <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <20180723155158.GB24301@thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: On 7/23/18 9:51 AM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Another thing to keep in mind: it is nice if your backup medium lasts > decades, but what about the reader for it? Will that be available > down the road as well and usable? I seem to recall reading about a ""tape drive that wrote optically to the medium in such a way that it could be read optically without overly complex magnification. I want to say something between a good magnifying glass and a cheap microscope allowed people with nominally 20/20 vision to be able to read the bits on the tape. The tape also purportedly had a leader that was direction on how to read the tape manually (optically). The idea was that it was possible (all be it tedious) for a human to read the tape and gain access to the contents there in. > And, not to forget: what format are your backups written in. Something > standard like POSIX tar or some proprietary format used by some > commercial software, which might have availability issues in the > future. Yep. I've read a few discussions where some of the oldest and biggest formats that take up the most space are the most likely to be recovered. ASCII text being one of the most likely. If you do use a less open / more proprietary format make sure to be mindful of what sort of blocking / chunking that it does. The idea being that you don't want corruption somewhere in the tape to render the rest of the tape inaccessible. This also nods towards redundancy. Having multiple copies of the same data different places on the tape and / or on multiple tapes makes it much more likely that if (read: when) corruption occurs, you don't actually have data loss because ideally redundant copies are good. Or at least between all of the copies you have at least one good aggregate copy of the data. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 24 12:55:28 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:55:28 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <1f9ca867-ee01-3642-3ecb-2eadf86b0d3b@sydex.com> Message-ID: <2accbd03-42b4-8d83-b6d8-6f0b39bbbfa8@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 7/23/18 12:00 PM, Geoffrey Oltmans via cctalk wrote: > Probably a good idea to use something like RAR with parity. I know I > have downloaded some multi-segment binaries in RAR format from usenet > with several missing segments and as long as I had the parity file > set it could successfully recover the entire archive. I too have had good luck with RAR files and their (optional) accompany PAR files. The key word being "optional" as in not there by default. I think some other archive formats also have (optional) built in redundancy. I've also heard some noise that some archive file formats are particularly susceptible to corruption and can't be recovered. So I do think it's very important to carefully pick the archive format and options. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 24 12:55:34 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:55:34 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 7/21/18 9:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: > what is your experience? I personally have had reasonable success with CD-Rs. I used Verbatim Blue CD-Rs for general storage back when I had a single 6.4 GB drive in '98. I have recently read the contents of all the surviving disks with no problems that weren't resolved by a damp washcloth gently wiping the underside of the disk. I do seem to recall I had one disk that failed within a few months from what seemed to be fungus or rot. I never knew. I got rid of it quickly. All the other disks that I burned at 1x have lasted the better part of 20 years. Honestly, I have more concern about functional CD-ROM drives more so than I do the media. More and more machines I'm around don't actually have a drive capable of reading CD-ROMs. I was also exposed to some people using the El-Cheapo light (faint) green CD-Rs and they would end up having problems reliably reading from them a week or two later. I think they usually burned them as fast as their drive would allow. To me, old AOL floppy disks were more reliable than the light green CD-Rs burned at high speed. I would only tolerate light green burned at 1x if I needed to move bulk data between machines and networking was not an option. Once the data was there, I considered the CD-R to be dead and frequently physically destroyed it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Tue Jul 24 12:57:56 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 10:57:56 -0700 Subject: Printerworks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006901d42377$ddd82f40$99888dc0$@net> > Has printerworks gone under? > Their website is unresponsive. > > Does anybody have scans of their CX and SX "catalogs"? Fred, I can verify that I cannot access printerworks either. I checked and I had made PDFs of printer specific pages for printers that I own or were interested in (e.g. LG IIID, 4si, 2100, 5500, etc.) This has the info for the parts, toner, specs, etc. I do not have the engine specific pages. Nor do I have the page which talks about painting old FedEx printers (I had accessed it before but it is not in my cache either). -Ali From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Jul 24 13:11:29 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:11:29 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Printerworks? In-Reply-To: <006901d42377$ddd82f40$99888dc0$@net> References: <006901d42377$ddd82f40$99888dc0$@net> Message-ID: >> Has printerworks gone under? >> Their website is unresponsive. >> Does anybody have scans of their CX and SX "catalogs"? On Tue, 24 Jul 2018, Ali wrote: > I can verify that I cannot access printerworks either. I checked and I had > made PDFs of printer specific pages for printers that I own or were > interested in (e.g. LG IIID, 4si, 2100, 5500, etc.) This has the info for > the parts, toner, specs, etc. I do not have the engine specific pages. Nor > do I have the page which talks about painting old FedEx printers (I had > accessed it before but it is not in my cache either). https://web.archive.org/web/20180102194732/http://www.printerworks.com/Catalogs/CX-Catalog/CX-Fed-Ex.html The "wayback machine"/archive.org provides at least a temporary recovery: https://web.archive.org/web/20171209065451/http://www.printerworks.com:80/Catalogs/LaserJets.html BUT! If Printerworks HAS gone under, that does not make it "abandonware". At one time, Printerworks SOLD dead-tree copies, so it is legaally established both as copyrighted, and as having monetry value. There may be creditors who now own the "intellectual property", who might think that they can make back some of their debts. In which case, they may insist that archive.org remove those pages (YES, they can do that!). So, if somebody has a convenient way to archive a copy, . . . -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From healyzh at avanthar.com Tue Jul 24 13:33:44 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 11:33:44 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D2681F8-9C18-44DC-9886-9CB76FB7CCDC@avanthar.com> > On Jul 24, 2018, at 10:55 AM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote: > >> On 7/21/18 9:14 AM, Carlo Pisani via cctalk wrote: >> what is your experience? > I personally have had reasonable success with CD-Rs. > > I used Verbatim Blue CD-Rs for general storage back when I had a single 6.4 GB drive in '98. I have recently read the contents of all the surviving disks with no problems that weren't resolved by a damp washcloth gently wiping the underside of the disk. > > I do seem to recall I had one disk that failed within a few months from what seemed to be fungus or rot. I never knew. I got rid of it quickly. > > All the other disks that I burned at 1x have lasted the better part of 20 years. > > Honestly, I have more concern about functional CD-ROM drives more so than I do the media. More and more machines I'm around don't actually have a drive capable of reading CD-ROMs. > > I was also exposed to some people using the El-Cheapo light (faint) green CD-Rs and they would end up having problems reliably reading from them a week or two later. I think they usually burned them as fast as their drive would allow. To me, old AOL floppy disks were more reliable than the light green CD-Rs burned at high speed. > > I would only tolerate light green burned at 1x if I needed to move bulk data between machines and networking was not an option. Once the data was there, I considered the CD-R to be dead and frequently physically destroyed it. > > > > -- > Grant. . . . > unix || die > For me, the Verbatim DataLifePlus has always been the disks that I trust. Though at this point I should review what is on them and move the data to online archives if I care about it. Realistically a lot is old backups. So far I?ve never had a problem with them, except bad burns on a flaky drive or system. I have used cheap blanks for Linux installs, or to give someone copies of my photos. Zane From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 13:42:30 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:42:30 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <8D2681F8-9C18-44DC-9886-9CB76FB7CCDC@avanthar.com> References: <8D2681F8-9C18-44DC-9886-9CB76FB7CCDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I wrote a lot of DDS2 and DDS3 tapes back in the day. When my DDS3 drive broke, I got another drive. I found out that my first drive was seriously out of calibration, and though it could read its own tapes, other drives could not. All the data was gone. I'm considering getting an LTO drive, but I won't do it unless either I buy two drives, or find someone else with the same generation LTO drive who would like to exchange encrypted backup tapes for verification. From carlojpisani at gmail.com Tue Jul 24 13:46:44 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 20:46:44 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <8D2681F8-9C18-44DC-9886-9CB76FB7CCDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: I have a brand new DLT drive for sale brand new, it's SCSI, 2U 2018-07-24 20:42 GMT+02:00 Eric Smith via cctalk : > I wrote a lot of DDS2 and DDS3 tapes back in the day. When my DDS3 drive > broke, I got another drive. I found out that my first drive was seriously > out of calibration, and though it could read its own tapes, other drives > could not. All the data was gone. > > I'm considering getting an LTO drive, but I won't do it unless either I buy > two drives, or find someone else with the same generation LTO drive who > would like to exchange encrypted backup tapes for verification. From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Tue Jul 24 13:51:40 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 12:51:40 -0600 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <8D2681F8-9C18-44DC-9886-9CB76FB7CCDC@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <702656cf-a883-88e1-e3bf-471bc7b9fd25@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/24/2018 12:42 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > I wrote a lot of DDS2 and DDS3 tapes back in the day. When my DDS3 > drive broke, I got another drive. I found out that my first drive was > seriously out of calibration, and though it could read its own tapes, > other drives could not. All the data was gone. Ouch! That sounds like a common type of problem, namely single point of failure on alignment. I think I've heard of the same for floppy drives too. > I'm considering getting an LTO drive, but I won't do it unless either I > buy two drives, or find someone else with the same generation LTO drive > who would like to exchange encrypted backup tapes for verification. Valid concern. I would also like to confirm that your drive can also read tapes from your friend's alternate drive. I'd really prefer if it was a trio of drives. But that's even more expensive / unlikely / difficult to achieve goal. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Jul 24 14:08:41 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 19:08:41 +0000 Subject: Anyone in Europe with a North* Horizon or Advantage in working condition Message-ID: Hi I'm trying to assist Jeff with HxC to create a Gotek that can work with the North* hard sectored disk. It has been problematic because of timing constraints. Jeff has been working with several in the US but it is difficult to see what factors are important, working remotely. Jeff is in Paris, France. It would be great if he could get hands on access to one of these machines for a month or so, that was operational. Dwight From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Jul 24 15:38:56 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 24 Jul 2018 16:38:56 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180724203856.1B68618C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Here is how it is connected: Thanks for that - very informative! > The sandwiched dual boards are sitting in 27 / 26 AB. The board in 27AB > was empty (quick glance), while the board in 26AB has a few TTL chips > on it. Slot 26AB is the Unibus A slot, Slot 27 AB should be a > terminator on Unibus B. I'm more interested in _what_ the two boards are doing! :-) It seems they must be jumpering UNIBUS A and UNIBUS B together. (Which I didn't expect, but maybe... will have to ponder.) As to what _else_ it is doing, and why it has the cable to the main card... I think that it must intercept MSYN from the processor and only let it pass if there's no hit in the cache. (To explain why it would need to do that... normally with the MS11, there's a static partitioning between FastBus memory and UNIBUS A memory. So when the CPU goes to do a memory cycle, it can put the address out on both the UNIBUS and FastBus, with the certainty that it will only get a reply on one. But with the cache, if there's a hit, it would in theory get a reply on both, which might confuse it. Or if it takes the cache copy, and terminates the UNIBUS cycle, that might confuse the memory.) Or maybe I'm confused, because now that I think about it, UNIBUS A goes straight from the CPU to the UNIBUS A out slot, so the Able board couldn't intercept MSYN? I guess I need to understand the fine details of the UNIBUS A and B stuff, maybe it will make sense at that point. Oh, wait a moment: slot 26 is UNIBUS A out, slot 27 is 'UNIBUS B in', and slot 28 is UNIBUS B 'termination'. (27 is 'in' because when the M9200 is installed in 26/27 to join the two UNIBI together, obviously one has to connect an 'out' to an 'in'... and then 28 is not 'UNIBUS B termination', it's 'UNIBUS out' to the rest of the system. OK, so that works - MSYN coming out of slot 26 is intercepted by the dual double-card, and is only allowed to pass on cache miss. Yeah, that sounds like it should work. > The hex ABLE/ ACT board sits in slot 21 which is the memory controller > board for the MS11. One of two; the other is slot 16. > From: Paul Birkel > I wonder whether this CACHE/45 can coexist with MS11 memory on the > Fastbus itself According to that marketing thing you found, "User may optimize hit ratio by upper/lower limit switch settings", so one would have to configure the Cache/45 to not cache the block that the 'other' MS11 controller thinks it owns... otherwise both might respond to requests for addresses in that range.... :-) Noel From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 02:07:15 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:07:15 +0200 Subject: Scanned a few DEC manuals. Message-ID: http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-MS11-HMSB-D_PDP11_45_MS11_semiconductor_memory_systems_maintenance_manual.pdf The MS11 main manual above seems to be a later version than the one already available http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11-H40SA-A-D_PDP-11_40_System_manual.pdf Earlier version then the one I found on bitsavers. http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11-HRJSA-B-D_RJS04_RJS03_fixed-head_disk_system_maintenance_manual.pdf Didn't find much at all mentioning RJS04/03. From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 03:02:37 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:02:37 +0200 Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 In-Reply-To: <20180724203856.1B68618C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180724203856.1B68618C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > The sandwiched dual boards are sitting in 27 / 26 AB. The board in > 27AB > > was empty (quick glance), while the board in 26AB has a few TTL chips > > on it. Slot 26AB is the Unibus A slot, Slot 27 AB should be a > > terminator on Unibus B. > > I'm more interested in _what_ the two boards are doing! :-) > > I will take a picture of the boards in more detail so we can figure out what they are doing later on. > It seems they must be jumpering UNIBUS A and UNIBUS B together. (Which I > didn't expect, but maybe... will have to ponder.) > > As to what _else_ it is doing, and why it has the cable to the main > card... I > think that it must intercept MSYN from the processor and only let it pass > if > there's no hit in the cache. > > (To explain why it would need to do that... normally with the MS11, > there's a > static partitioning between FastBus memory and UNIBUS A memory. So when the > CPU goes to do a memory cycle, it can put the address out on both the > UNIBUS > and FastBus, with the certainty that it will only get a reply on one. But > with > the cache, if there's a hit, it would in theory get a reply on both, which > might confuse it. Or if it takes the cache copy, and terminates the UNIBUS > cycle, that might confuse the memory.) > > Or maybe I'm confused, because now that I think about it, UNIBUS A goes > straight from the CPU to the UNIBUS A out slot, so the Able board couldn't > intercept MSYN? I guess I need to understand the fine details of the > UNIBUS A > and B stuff, maybe it will make sense at that point. > > Oh, wait a moment: slot 26 is UNIBUS A out, slot 27 is 'UNIBUS B in', and > slot > 28 is UNIBUS B 'termination'. (27 is 'in' because when the M9200 is > installed > in 26/27 to join the two UNIBI together, obviously one has to connect an > 'out' > to an 'in'... and then 28 is not 'UNIBUS B termination', it's 'UNIBUS out' > to > the rest of the system. > > OK, so that works - MSYN coming out of slot 26 is intercepted by the dual > double-card, and is only allowed to pass on cache miss. Yeah, that sounds > like > it should work. > I am not sure I follow you entirely. My understanding is that slot 1AB and slot 26 AB is tied to each other. So if there would be no expansion unibus there should be a M930 in each of these slots. The same goes for slots 27AB and 28AB. It corresponds with what I see on page 111 in http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1145/1145_System_Engineering_Drawings_Jun74.pdf if I am not missing something. I cannot see how a device in slot 26AB or 27AB would be able to intercept MSYN here. What it could do though is to force some signals active (low). > > > The hex ABLE/ ACT board sits in slot 21 which is the memory > controller > > board for the MS11. > > One of two; the other is slot 16. > > > > From: Paul Birkel > > > I wonder whether this CACHE/45 can coexist with MS11 memory on the > > Fastbus itself > > According to that marketing thing you found, "User may optimize hit ratio > by > upper/lower limit switch settings", so one would have to configure the > Cache/45 to not cache the block that the 'other' MS11 controller thinks it > owns... otherwise both might respond to requests for addresses in that > range.... :-) > > Noel > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 03:36:22 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 03:36:22 -0500 Subject: ABLE, other non DEC boards. Message-ID: I had a nice talk with an old friend earlier today, and we talked about how some companies were so proud of their products that they never put their name on it. Sometimes a logo, sometimes only a part number. Bitsaver is great- I don't don't know what any of us would do without it. But There are a lot of items that, at least I, can't turn up there or on Google. While looking for the ABLE (ACT) board that Mattis was talking about (and I found it for a list member who has first dibs on it) I came across: Computer Consoles 343d01533 Computer interface Tech -looks like a DZ11 clone CMD CDU-700/T witch I think can be upgraded to a M/T SCSI Unibus Simpact Assoc inc ICP-1600 DPD might have been bought out by CDA Computer design and Applicationd.which might be a subsidiary of Analogic. MM3000, 40199 2mg, FPPC Some of these I've heard of, some not. I have a few hundred DEC compatibles, and I'm tired of going through them. Duel, quad, hex, and 780. A lot of Emulex, dilog, ADAC, Data Translations. Please contact me off list if you are interested in any. Pics would be nice. Thanks, Paul From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 25 03:41:17 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:41:17 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps Message-ID: Hi, I need to replace several broken lamps from our HP-2116B front panel. The old/original ones are CM-345 or OL-345. This makes sense, they are rated 6V 40mA 10000 hours. BUT: The maintenance manual says something different and is even wrong and inconsistent. HP part number is 2140-0035, description "Lamp, Incadescent, 6.3V, 0.75A" This can't be true. 92*0.75A would be 400W alone for the front panel lights... The manufacturer code is 71744 (Chicago Miniature Lamp Works), mfg part number 1775. That is indeed a 6.3V lamp, but 0.075A (better!). Problem: that is a midget _screw_ base lamp, so wrong socket and only rated for 1000h. The panel and switches need a midget flanged base lamp. Who wrote that manual? Was he drunk? ;-) Christian From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 04:24:06 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:24:06 +1000 Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00c501d423f9$3e9e2f10$bbda8d30$@gmail.com> Christian, when I was restoring the HP Computer Museum's 2116A I ordered a bunch of these 345 bulbs from 1000bulbs.com - but it seems they no longer stock them. I did find this listing though which looks current... https://www.lighting-pros.com/eiko-345-t-1-3-4-midget-flanged-sx6s-case-of-1 0 They are around 0.04A current draw - not 0.75A! Hope that helps, David Collins www.hpmuseum.net -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, 25 July 2018 6:41 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps Hi, I need to replace several broken lamps from our HP-2116B front panel. The old/original ones are CM-345 or OL-345. This makes sense, they are rated 6V 40mA 10000 hours. BUT: The maintenance manual says something different and is even wrong and inconsistent. HP part number is 2140-0035, description "Lamp, Incadescent, 6.3V, 0.75A" This can't be true. 92*0.75A would be 400W alone for the front panel lights... The manufacturer code is 71744 (Chicago Miniature Lamp Works), mfg part number 1775. That is indeed a 6.3V lamp, but 0.075A (better!). Problem: that is a midget _screw_ base lamp, so wrong socket and only rated for 1000h. The panel and switches need a midget flanged base lamp. Who wrote that manual? Was he drunk? ;-) Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 06:41:17 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:41:17 +0200 Subject: ABLE, other non DEC boards. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > While looking for the ABLE (ACT) board that Mattis was talking about (and I > found it for a list member who has first dibs on it) I came across: > > > It is likely that the one that wanted the Cache/45 board also wants the double dual board that goes into slot 26 AB and 27 AB. I cannot tell for sure if it is necessary or not but it at least sits in the 11/45 machine here. So maybe you should check for that as well. Two dual boards bolted together in one unit. One 20 pin connector and one 10 pin connector. https://i.imgur.com/4TEZoiO.jpg The board to the left with white handles. /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 25 06:53:42 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 07:53:42 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180725115342.4D17818C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I will take a picture of the boards in more detail so we can figure out > what they are doing later on. Thanks, that would be really useful. > My understanding is that slot 1AB and slot 26 AB is tied to each > other. So if there would be no expansion unibus there should be a M930 > in each of these slots. The same goes for slots 27AB and 28AB. Right, that's my understanding too. There's a diagram in the "PDP-11/45 Maintenance Reference Manual" (October, '73 edition, on pg. 60 - pg. 66 of the PDF), which gives: - slot 1 - UNIBUS A termination - slot 26 - UNIBUS A cable - slot 27 - UNIBUS B cable - slot 28 - UNIBUS B termination and my read is that the slot 26 cable is 'out to any UNIBUS memory, etc', while the slot 27 cable is 'in from the other machine in the dual-processor system'. (There's an interesting discussion in, IIRC, an RH11-AB - the dual-UNIBUS controller for the MASSBUS - tutorial manual which talks about the M9300, which is a terminator which can produce an NPG in response to an NPR; that is used when people want to attach the RH11-AB's second UNIBUS to the UNIBUS B, when there's no CPU on it. So the M9300 would go in slot 27, and the cable out to the RH11 in slot 28.) > I cannot see how a device in slot 26AB or 27AB would be able to > intercept MSYN here. Not _in_ slot 26 or 27, it's in the cable _between_ them! :-) Look at the common case, where UNIBUS A and B are connected: MSYN comes out of the CPU in slot 26, is jumpered across to slot 27 by the M9200, is carried across the backplane to slot 28, and then out (on either a BC11 or an M920). That dual-card thingy that comes with the Cache/45 would allow (if my surmise about what's going on is correct :-) the Cache/45 to place itself _between_ the MYSN out of the CPU (in slot 26) and the 'MSYN out to the rest of the system' (in slot 27). That does mean no separate UNIBUS A and B. But if my supposition as to how the Cache/45 works (that it fills itself by snooping on UNIBUS B in the MS11 controller slot) is correct, UNIBUS A and B would have to be connected together _anyway_, for that to work. (I _can_ imagine how to do it all without joining the two UNIBI together, but I will skip that for now.) Noel From alemoco4 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 07:28:31 2018 From: alemoco4 at gmail.com (alemoco4 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:28:31 +0100 Subject: Mystery 8085-related IC identification needed please Message-ID: Hi Are you still looking to purchase STC executel, I have just found my old one in the cupboard under my bed and could sell. Please email me if interested Regards Peter Sent from my iPhone From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 08:29:29 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:29:29 +0200 Subject: Scanned a few DEC manuals. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Two more drawings: http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11-HLCA-D_LC11_DECwriter_system_engieering_drawings_MISSING_ONE_PAGE.pdf http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11-HLCA-D_LC11_DECwriter_system_manual.pdf The latter is very similar to the HLCB version that already is available at bitsavers. 2018-07-25 9:07 GMT+02:00 Mattis Lind : > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC- > MS11-HMSB-D_PDP11_45_MS11_semiconductor_memory_systems_ > maintenance_manual.pdf > > The MS11 main manual above seems to be a later version than the one > already available > > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11- > H40SA-A-D_PDP-11_40_System_manual.pdf > > Earlier version then the one I found on bitsavers. > > http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/DEC-11- > HRJSA-B-D_RJS04_RJS03_fixed-head_disk_system_maintenance_manual.pdf > > Didn't find much at all mentioning RJS04/03. > From gerardcjat at free.fr Wed Jul 25 08:33:15 2018 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:33:15 +0200 Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps Message-ID: When I was "doing sort of " C.E. for 2116 ( 1971 _ 1981 ), we were using CM 380 as replacement. Even longer life !! From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 25 08:47:48 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:47:48 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: <00c501d423f9$3e9e2f10$bbda8d30$@gmail.com> References: <00c501d423f9$3e9e2f10$bbda8d30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, it was written > Christian, when I was restoring the HP Computer Museum's 2116A I ordered a > bunch of these 345 bulbs from 1000bulbs.com - but it seems they no longer > stock them. > > I did find this listing though which looks current... > https://www.lighting-pros.com/eiko-345-t-1-3-4-midget-flanged-sx6s-case-of-1 > 0 > > They are around 0.04A current draw - not 0.75A! Yes, the Installation and Maintenance Manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70.pdf) contains several errors. Interesting enough, my printed copy of this manual from 1968 (that is completely different from the 1970 one; it only has parts lists and schematics, the chapters for installation and maintenance are simply not there) is right: 2140-0035 6.3V 0.04A In the meantime I've ordered a bunch of JKL 345 from Mouser (60 Ecent/piece) :-) Christian From gerardcjat at free.fr Wed Jul 25 08:50:02 2018 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:50:02 +0200 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? Message-ID: Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They are not that expensive by now. And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life time. I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of saturated magnetic field. Better check first. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Jul 25 08:54:43 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 09:54:43 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> > On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:50 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech wrote: > > Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They are not that expensive by now. I wouldn't worry about "true sine wave". That seems more of a marketing thing anyway, and motors don't care. Just feed them with a variable frequency motor drive and all should be well. > And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life time. > I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of saturated magnetic field. Better check first. That doesn't sound right. If you run the frequency up high enough you might get into problems with magnetic materials not designed for it. And much lower probably gives you reduced torque. But 50 vs. 60 Hz is a trivial difference for a motor, I can't see any reasons for that to cause trouble. I routinely run my lathe at half frequency if not less, and it doesn't complain. paul From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Jul 25 09:00:00 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:00:00 +0200 (CEST) Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, GerardCJAT wrote: > When I was "doing sort of " C.E. for 2116 ( 1971 _ 1981 ), we were using > CM 380 as replacement. Even longer life !! Good info! Don't know how I could miss this one, it is even cheaper than the 345. I think I wanted to stick to the same type as the ones in the panel. Christian From bhilpert at shaw.ca Wed Jul 25 10:21:58 2018 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 08:21:58 -0700 Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: References: <00c501d423f9$3e9e2f10$bbda8d30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 2018-Jul-25, at 6:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, it was written >> Christian, when I was restoring the HP Computer Museum's 2116A I ordered a >> bunch of these 345 bulbs from 1000bulbs.com - but it seems they no longer >> stock them. >> >> I did find this listing though which looks current... >> https://www.lighting-pros.com/eiko-345-t-1-3-4-midget-flanged-sx6s-case-of-1 >> 0 >> >> They are around 0.04A current draw - not 0.75A! > > Yes, the Installation and Maintenance Manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70.pdf) contains several errors. > Interesting enough, my printed copy of this manual from 1968 (that is completely different from the 1970 one; it only has parts lists and schematics, the chapters for installation and maintenance are simply not there) is right: 2140-0035 6.3V 0.04A > > In the meantime I've ordered a bunch of JKL 345 from Mouser (60 Ecent/piece) To mention, they are actually run below-spec in the processor, which of course improves longevity and reduces the heat next to the plastic front panel. From actual measurements in my 2116C the lamps (CM345) draw: register-bit positions: ~ 31ma @ 4.1V inside the push-buttons: ~ 36mA @ 5.4V compared to the spec: 40mA @ 6V ( I obtained CM345s from Mouser in 2013. "95 in stock", that would have left 83 after my purchase). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Jul 25 11:42:01 2018 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:42:01 +0000 Subject: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: References: <00c501d423f9$3e9e2f10$bbda8d30$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: It might be worth saving the bases and buying "grain of wheat" lamps to rebuild the lights. I see ~70ma 6v lamps available. That sounds similar to the original specification. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 8:21:58 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: HP-2116 front panel lamps On 2018-Jul-25, at 6:47 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, it was written >> Christian, when I was restoring the HP Computer Museum's 2116A I ordered a >> bunch of these 345 bulbs from 1000bulbs.com - but it seems they no longer >> stock them. >> >> I did find this listing though which looks current... >> https://www.lighting-pros.com/eiko-345-t-1-3-4-midget-flanged-sx6s-case-of-1 >> 0 >> >> They are around 0.04A current draw - not 0.75A! > > Yes, the Installation and Maintenance Manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70.pdf) contains several errors. > Interesting enough, my printed copy of this manual from 1968 (that is completely different from the 1970 one; it only has parts lists and schematics, the chapters for installation and maintenance are simply not there) is right: 2140-0035 6.3V 0.04A > > In the meantime I've ordered a bunch of JKL 345 from Mouser (60 Ecent/piece) To mention, they are actually run below-spec in the processor, which of course improves longevity and reduces the heat next to the plastic front panel. >From actual measurements in my 2116C the lamps (CM345) draw: register-bit positions: ~ 31ma @ 4.1V inside the push-buttons: ~ 36mA @ 5.4V compared to the spec: 40mA @ 6V ( I obtained CM345s from Mouser in 2013. "95 in stock", that would have left 83 after my purchase). From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 11:48:47 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 10:48:47 -0600 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:50 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech < > cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 > Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They > are not that expensive by now. > > I wouldn't worry about "true sine wave". That seems more of a marketing > thing anyway, and motors don't care. Just feed them with a variable > frequency motor drive and all should be well. > > > And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR > THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life time. > > I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of > saturated magnetic field. Better check first. > > That doesn't sound right. If you run the frequency up high enough you > might get into problems with magnetic materials not designed for it. And > much lower probably gives you reduced torque. But 50 vs. 60 Hz is a > trivial difference for a motor, I can't see any reasons for that to cause > trouble. I routinely run my lathe at half frequency if not less, and it > doesn't complain. > I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single power specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz operation. From ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 13:06:23 2018 From: ce.murillosanchez at gmail.com (Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:06:23 -0500 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:50 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech < >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 >> Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They >> are not that expensive by now. >> >> I wouldn't worry about "true sine wave". That seems more of a marketing >> thing anyway, and motors don't care. Just feed them with a variable >> frequency motor drive and all should be well. >> >>> And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR >> THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life time. >>> I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of >> saturated magnetic field. Better check first. >> >> That doesn't sound right. If you run the frequency up high enough you >> might get into problems with magnetic materials not designed for it. And >> much lower probably gives you reduced torque. But 50 vs. 60 Hz is a >> trivial difference for a motor, I can't see any reasons for that to cause >> trouble. I routinely run my lathe at half frequency if not less, and it >> doesn't complain. >> > I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as > high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power > has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single power > specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor > has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. > > Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz > models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz > operation. > It has to do with the physics of flux linkages and saturation. Under sinusoidal operation, voltage is proportional to the product of maximum flux and frequency.? If you fix the voltage, in order to operate at 5/6 of the nominal frequency you need a flux that is? 6/5 the nominal one.? This might not seem like much more flux, but due to the nonlinear magnetization characteristics,? the required magnetization current will not be 6/5 times the nominal current, but it could in fact be three times higher or even more, and highly distorted. Under-frequency and over-voltage can kill power transformers easily. A transformer designed to operate at 50 Hz will therefore have much more iron mass in its core, power and voltage being equal.? That's why in airplanes power is distributed at 400Hz; the transformers will be much lighter. carlos. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 13:17:41 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:17:41 +0100 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as > high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power > has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single power > specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor > has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. > > Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz > models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz > operation. This may well be true (I think it is), but the original question was about a particular device, the DEC RK05 disk drive. According to the maintenance manual (on bitsavers), the coversion between 50Hz and 60Hz involves changing the motor pulley. No comment about replacing the motor, the start capacitor, or anything else. Does anyone have an RK05 IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) manual? It would be interesting to see if there are different part numbers for the motor (start capacitor, blower...) for 50Hz and 60Hz versions. Going back to a much earlier comment, I think this pulley is something that would be a lot easier to turn (on a lathe) rather than 3D print. -tony From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Jul 25 13:27:33 2018 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 11:27:33 -0700 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: <78276EE2-28D5-4D4D-99DD-18CF6746E88C@shiresoft.com> > On Jul 25, 2018, at 11:17 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk > wrote: > >> I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as >> high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power >> has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single power >> specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor >> has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. >> >> Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz >> models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz >> operation. > > This may well be true (I think it is), but the original question was about a > particular device, the DEC RK05 disk drive. According to the maintenance > manual (on bitsavers), the coversion between 50Hz and 60Hz involves changing > the motor pulley. No comment about replacing the motor, the start capacitor, > or anything else. > > Does anyone have an RK05 IPB (Illustrated Parts Breakdown) manual? It would > be interesting to see if there are different part numbers for the motor (start > capacitor, blower...) for 50Hz and 60Hz versions. > > Going back to a much earlier comment, I think this pulley is something that > would be a lot easier to turn (on a lathe) rather than 3D print. A while ago (can?t recall how many years), I acquired a number of 50Hz RK05?s. Since I live in a 60Hz country, getting the drives to work simply involved changing the pulley from the 50Hz version to the 60Hz version and changing the voltage jumpers (the drives have worked fine after that change). I believe that the switch over is documented somewhere?but it?s been *way* too long since I did it. As far as I recall, the pulleys have the frequency stamped on them. For the OP who started this thread. Yes, I still have the 50Hz pulleys *somewhere* but at this point they're not easy to find as they are packed in a tote in the basement of my shop (which is packed floor to ceiling with boxes and totes?there isn?t even an isle to walk around in?just a small area that you can almost turn around in). TTFN - Guy From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 25 14:09:04 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:09:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180725190904.4C2C218C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, it turns out the power connectors (plastic female shell with metal male pins, etc) widely used in UNIBUS PDP-11's (e.g. to provide power to backplanes, etc) are still available, if anyone else wants any. (No doubt some of you already knew this; this is for those, like me, who didn't! :-) The 3-pin ones are used for the remote power on/off cables (used extensively in DEC gear, not just UNIBUS PDP-11's). They are 'Commercial Mate-n-Lok', now made by TE Connectivity, who bought AMP. Here are the current part numbers: 1-480305-0 3-pin female shell 1-480276-0 6-pin female shell 1-480277-0 9-pin female shell 1-480324-0 15-pin female shell 60620-1 14-20AWG male pin The 6- and 15-pin are for the backplane power connecters; the 9-pin were used to power backplanes in older machines (e.g. PDP-11/10). There's also a pin for smaller gauge wires, e.g. for the power control cables, but I don't have the number right here. I have checked, and these do plug into old DEC gear properly. I got mine from Digikey; their page for the line is here: https://www.digikey.com/products/en?FV=ffec0ef5 Go to the bottom, where it says 'Housings', and click on that, and they will all show up. (There are cross-links to the pins when you click on a particular shell.) Noel PS: I'm also tracking down the 8-pin connectors used in the H744/H745/etc regulator 'bricks'; an update on them in a day or so. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 14:14:00 2018 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (Bill Degnan) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:14:00 -0400 Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) In-Reply-To: <20180725190904.4C2C218C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180725190904.4C2C218C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Just curious, is this info on or will be on your wiki? I find it to be a well-organized resource. On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 3:09 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > So, it turns out the power connectors (plastic female shell with metal male > pins, etc) widely used in UNIBUS PDP-11's (e.g. to provide power to > backplanes, etc) are still available, if anyone else wants any. (No doubt > some > of you already knew this; this is for those, like me, who didn't! :-) > > The 3-pin ones are used for the remote power on/off cables (used > extensively > in DEC gear, not just UNIBUS PDP-11's). > > They are 'Commercial Mate-n-Lok', now made by TE Connectivity, who bought > AMP. > Here are the current part numbers: > > 1-480305-0 3-pin female shell > 1-480276-0 6-pin female shell > 1-480277-0 9-pin female shell > 1-480324-0 15-pin female shell > > 60620-1 14-20AWG male pin > > The 6- and 15-pin are for the backplane power connecters; the 9-pin were > used > to power backplanes in older machines (e.g. PDP-11/10). There's also a pin > for > smaller gauge wires, e.g. for the power control cables, but I don't have > the > number right here. > > I have checked, and these do plug into old DEC gear properly. > > > I got mine from Digikey; their page for the line is here: > > https://www.digikey.com/products/en?FV=ffec0ef5 > > Go to the bottom, where it says 'Housings', and click on that, and they > will > all show up. (There are cross-links to the pins when you click on a > particular > shell.) > > Noel > > PS: I'm also tracking down the 8-pin connectors used in the H744/H745/etc > regulator 'bricks'; an update on them in a day or so. > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 25 14:17:22 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:17:22 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180725191722.B732C18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Degnan > is this info on or will be on your wiki? Well, it's not 'mine', but yes, I will be posting it when I find time. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 14:45:47 2018 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 13:45:47 -0600 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 12:17 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk > > Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz > > models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz > > operation. > > This may well be true (I think it is), but the original question was about > a > particular device, the DEC RK05 disk drive. According to the maintenance > manual (on bitsavers), the coversion between 50Hz and 60Hz involves > changing > the motor pulley. No comment about replacing the motor, the start > capacitor, > or anything else. > Right. I was just responding to a later, general comment about motors. There are, however, DEC products other than the RK05 which had different transformers for 50 Hz and 60 Hz. For example, the H771 power supply used in the RX01 and RX02. There were three H771 models, The H771A for 90-132 VAC 60 Hz, The H771C for 90-132 VAC 50 Hz, and the H771D for 180-264 VAC 50 Hz. The H771A uses a transformer rated for 60 Hz. The H771C and H771D both use the same 50 Hz rated transformer, with different wiring. The H771C and H771D also require one of two different wiring harnesses to cover the entire mains voltage range, e.g., 90-120 VAC vs 100-132 VAC for the H771C, or twice those voltages for the H771D. From db at db.net Wed Jul 25 14:56:33 2018 From: db at db.net (Diane Bruce) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:56:33 -0400 Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's Message-ID: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> I have two Livingston PM-11's (http://portmasters.com/faq.html) and I haven't needed either of these in a long time. Is anyone interested in them? Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 15:35:55 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:35:55 +0200 Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) In-Reply-To: <20180725190904.4C2C218C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180725190904.4C2C218C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > They are 'Commercial Mate-n-Lok', now made by TE Connectivity, who bought > AMP. > Here are the current part numbers: > > VAX (VAX-11/750 specifically) but I assume many DEC machine of the same vintage uses Universal Mate-N-Lok series. This what I bought a couple of years ago to have handy when working with various PSUs etc: 1-480710-0 15 position plug housing 1-480708-0 12 position plug housing 1-480704-0 9 position plug housing 1-480704-0 6 position plug housing 1-480763-0 5 position plug housing 1-480702-0 4 position plug housing 1-480700-0 3 position plug housing 1-480698-0 2 position plug housing 350536-1 Female socket 14-20 AWG cut-strip 350218-1 Male socket 14-20 AWG cut-strip Unfortunately the mate-n-lok which has 8 position and is used for current loop connectors and H74x plug regulator does not seems to be available anymore. But it would be nice to be corrected here. It uses the same sockets as the commercial mate-n-lok. /Mattis From jim at photojim.ca Wed Jul 25 15:40:50 2018 From: jim at photojim.ca (Jim MacKenzie) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:40:50 -0600 Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's In-Reply-To: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> References: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> Message-ID: <03f101d42457$c6eb2180$54c16480$@photojim.ca> If shipping to Regina, SK wouldn't be objectionable, I'd take one of these off your hands. I've wanted one for awhile. Jim -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane Bruce via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 1:57 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's I have two Livingston PM-11's (http://portmasters.com/faq.html) and I haven't needed either of these in a long time. Is anyone interested in them? Diane -- - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Jul 25 16:02:55 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:02:55 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180725210255.7082E18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Unfortunately the mate-n-lok which has 8 position and is used for > current loop connectors and H74x plug regulator does not seems to be > available anymore. But it would be nice to be corrected here. According to one dealer Web-site, what I think are those connector shells are now out of production. However, as I indicated, I have located several places that still have some, and I have ordered some to verify that they are the right thing. If they are (they should be here at the end of the week), I will send another message with part numbers, sources, etc. Noel From als at thangorodrim.ch Wed Jul 25 16:56:22 2018 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:56:22 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> Message-ID: <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Mon, Jul 23, 2018 at 10:54:26AM -0700, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/22/2018 09:05 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > > Throughout this whole thread, I've been tempted to say that you get better > > data fidelity if you take a green magic marker and mark the edges of the > > disk... > > On the other hand, information on MicroSD cards is likely to end up in > the sewer system, lost between floorboard cracks or vacuumed or swept > into the rubbish bin accidentally. > > IMIHO, a grievous error by making things too physically small. The > standard SD card is easy enough to pick out in a deep-pile carpet. Not > so, the usual black-colored MicriSD. The dog might well eat it without > even being aware of having done it. > > Are there such things as "microSD" to "standard SD" adapters that allows > for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots? Of course there are. Since both SD cards and ?SD cards have identical electrical and protocol interfaces, those adapters are just passive pieces of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD cards sold these days come packaged with a ?SD to SD card adapter. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From mtapley at swri.edu Wed Jul 25 17:12:01 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 22:12:01 +0000 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: > On Jul 25, 2018, at 4:56 PM, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > >> Are there such things as "microSD" to "standard SD" adapters that allows >> for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots? > > Of course there are. Since both SD cards and ?SD cards have identical > electrical and protocol interfaces, those adapters are just passive pieces > of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD cards sold these days come > packaged with a ?SD to SD card adapter. While it is true that the ?SD? cards I?ve bought recently have actually been ?SD cards with an adaptor so they can also fit into SD slots, it didn?t sound like that was what Chuck was asking. I have not seen an adaptor which will plug into a ?SD slot and then allow me to plug my (visible-size) SD card into the adaptor. I do totally agree that both the adaptor and the medium would be big enough to see in that case and that would be a good thing! However I have seen applications for a ?SD card that would not mechanically work with the adaptor in question, due to packaging constraints, so I would not expect that adaptor (if it exists) to be a common item. - Mark From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 17:43:25 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 15:43:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: >> Are there such things as "microSD" to "standard SD" adapters that allows >> for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots? On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > Of course there are. Since both SD cards and ?SD cards have identical > electrical and protocol interfaces, those adapters are just passive pieces > of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD cards sold these days come > packaged with a ?SD to SD card adapter. Yes, micro-SD often comes with an adapter to use micro-SD in an SD slot. But are there adapters readily available to connect an SD card to a device that has a micro-SD slot? (">> for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots?") The word "TO" is often confused when discussing adapters, and any discussion should AVOID using the words "TO" or "FROM". For example, If I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on a Leica bellows, then which way is "TO"? Are we adapting the M4/3 lens to Leica bellows, or adapting the Leica bellows to M4/2? You and I might know what we mean, but eBay searches, . . . (A: adapter to use the Leica bellows on a Micro-4/3 camera is readily available for a couple of dollars. But for the lens onto the bellows, is NOT readily available, however, there are extremely cheap sets of M4/3 extension tubes, with 52mm or 57mm x 0.75mm threads between the sections. adapters between 39mmx24tpi and 52mm x 0.75mm are easier to come by.) From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 25 17:50:55 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:50:55 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <20180725225059.9832027484@mx1.ezwind.net> At 05:43 PM 7/25/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >Yes, micro-SD often comes with an adapter to use micro-SD in an SD slot. >But are there adapters readily available to connect an SD card to a device that has a micro-SD slot? >(">> for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots?") Wouldn't such a big-to-small adapter almost always be confounded by form factors and clearances? For many devices, the micro SD disappears into the device. I'll be darned, they exist: https://www.saikosystems.com/web/p-44-sd-to-microsd-converter.aspx?affiliateID=10050&utm_source=GoogleMerchant https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SD-TO-SD-Card-Extension-Cable-Adapter-Extender-Converter-for-SD-RS-MMC-SDH-/112816662414 https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TF-MicroSD-Male-To-SD-Female-SDHC-SDXC-Card-Reader-Extension-Adapter-Cable-Extender-For-Phone/32819948232.html?src=google&albslr=220863469&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&albcp=653153647&albag=34728528644&slnk=&trgt=75384829977&plac=&crea=en32819948232&netw=g&device=c&mtctp=&aff_platform=google&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv-DaBRCcARIsAI9sba8r11HL7Eqe9sXiFCSc_fsAgI-UBbxE2gl4ORrUXWAH2aYvDhXP0JoaAoeJEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds - John From carlojpisani at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 18:02:01 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:02:01 +0200 Subject: Motorola IDP board Message-ID: hi any chance someone has worked with the Motorola IDP m68EC0x0 board and has the manual of the 68EC020IDP CPU module? let me know p.s. have you ever seen the IDP-net card? any information on the IDP bus timing? (i'd like to develop my own net-card for the IDP bus, but I need the timing spec) From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Jul 25 18:02:15 2018 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:02:15 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? Message-ID: <3dn32g6ku4gjk5wn7a527a7l.1532559734646@email.android.com> >Of course there are. Since both SD cards >and ?SD cards have identical >electrical and protocol interfaces, those >adapters are just passive pieces >of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD >cards sold these days come I believe Chuck is looking for the other way SD to micros i.e. a size reducer. -Alo From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 18:06:05 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:06:05 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180725225059.9832027484@mx1.ezwind.net> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20180725225059.9832027484@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: >> Yes, micro-SD often comes with an adapter to use micro-SD in an SD slot. >> But are there adapters readily available to connect an SD card to a device that has a micro-SD slot? >> (">> for insertion of standard SD into mcroSD slots?") On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, John Foust via cctalk wrote: > Wouldn't such a big-to-small adapter almost always be confounded > by form factors and clearances? > For many devices, the micro SD disappears into the device. > I'll be darned, they exist: > https://www.saikosystems.com/web/p-44-sd-to-microsd-converter.aspx?affiliateID=10050&utm_source=GoogleMerchant > https://www.ebay.com/itm/Micro-SD-TO-SD-Card-Extension-Cable-Adapter-Extender-Converter-for-SD-RS-MMC-SDH-/112816662414 > https://www.aliexpress.com/item/TF-MicroSD-Male-To-SD-Female-SDHC-SDXC-Card-Reader-Extension-Adapter-Cable-Extender-For-Phone/32819948232.html?src=google&albslr=220863469&isdl=y&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&source=%7Bifdyn:dyn%7D%7Bifpla:pla%7D%7Bifdbm:DBM&albch=DID%7D&src=google&albch=shopping&acnt=708-803-3821&isdl=y&albcp=653153647&albag=34728528644&slnk=&trgt=75384829977&plac=&crea=en32819948232&netw=g&device=c&mtctp=&aff_platform=google&gclid=Cj0KCQjwv-DaBRCcARIsAI9sba8r11HL7Eqe9sXiFCSc_fsAgI-UBbxE2gl4ORrUXWAH2aYvDhXP0JoaAoeJEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds and, in line with the treachery of descriptions of adapters, several of those are micro-SD to micro-SD extenders, NOT size adapters! But, one of those has "other alternatives" that seem to be the right one. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 18:28:54 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:28:54 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> On 07/25/2018 02:56 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > Of course there are. Since both SD cards and ?SD cards have identical > electrical and protocol interfaces, those adapters are just passive pieces > of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD cards sold these days come > packaged with a ?SD to SD card adapter. Again, I've been misunderstood. I'm looking for an adapter that allows one to use standard size SD cards in a MicroSD slot. I can find only one incarnation of this idea in a rather shoddy-locking hunk of F44 PCB with a uSD socket mounted on it. If someone knows of a slicker, better-designed adapter, I'd like to see it. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 18:33:04 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:33:04 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20180725225059.9832027484@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <0a67d9c1-b0b3-df8f-3973-7562f6ca9476@sydex.com> On 07/25/2018 04:06 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > and, in line with the treachery of descriptions of adapters, several of > those are micro-SD to micro-SD extenders, NOT size adapters! > > But, one of those has "other alternatives" that seem to be the right one. The ones with a ribbon cable might actually be best for my application--I'd like to mount a PCB with a uSD slot inside a larger box. Thanks for the tip--I'll so some investigation. --Chuck From jfoust at threedee.com Wed Jul 25 18:35:54 2018 From: jfoust at threedee.com (John Foust) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:35:54 -0500 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <20180725225059.9832027484@mx1.ezwind.net> Message-ID: <20180725233558.7ED474E6A2@mx2.ezwind.net> At 06:06 PM 7/25/2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >and, in line with the treachery of descriptions of adapters, several of those are micro-SD to micro-SD extenders, NOT size adapters! You can daisy-chain them. It helps get around the form factor and clearance issues. :-) - John From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 18:37:50 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:37:50 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Again, I've been misunderstood. I'm looking for an adapter that allows > one to use standard size SD cards in a MicroSD slot. > I can find only one incarnation of this idea in a rather shoddy-locking > hunk of F44 PCB with a uSD socket mounted on it. > If someone knows of a slicker, better-designed adapter, I'd like to see it. Like this? : https://www.ebay.com/itm/183299125079 From cclist at sydex.com Wed Jul 25 19:14:41 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:14:41 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <23f264be-ad28-7f12-f1da-4488f963865d@sydex.com> On 07/25/2018 04:37 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Like this? : > https://www.ebay.com/itm/183299125079 That might have possibilities. I've ordered a couple of eBay item 362055535419, for 2 clams and change each. Same thing from Cathay. Thanks, Chuck From healyzh at avanthar.com Wed Jul 25 19:56:53 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:56:53 -0700 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: <8E844B6F-46FE-4870-8C67-9E9D35037CF8@avanthar.com> > On Jul 25, 2018, at 3:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > For example, If I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on a Leica bellows, then which way is "TO"? Are we adapting the M4/3 lens to Leica bellows, or adapting the Leica bellows to M4/2? You and I might know what we mean, but eBay searches, . . . > (A: adapter to use the Leica bellows on a Micro-4/3 camera is readily available for a couple of dollars. But for the lens onto the bellows, > is NOT readily available, however, there are extremely cheap sets of M4/3 extension tubes, with 52mm or 57mm x 0.75mm threads between the sections. adapters between 39mmx24tpi and 52mm x 0.75mm are easier to come by.) Why would I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on my Leica?s, will it even cover the 35mm frame (or full frame sensor)? Zane From fritzm at fritzm.org Wed Jul 25 19:58:17 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:58:17 -0700 Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) In-Reply-To: <20180725210255.7082E18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180725210255.7082E18C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5e1b7193-6e75-ac64-c65a-8698e9483998@fritzm.org> If these are what you are talking about, I ordered up a bunch a couple years ago when I rebuilt the power harness for my 11/45, and can attest they are the right thing: https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/1/1-480460-0 https://www.connectorpeople.com/Connector/TYCO-AMP-TE_CONNECTIVITY/1/1-480459-0 On 07/25/2018 02:02 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Mattis Lind > > > Unfortunately the mate-n-lok which has 8 position and is used for > > current loop connectors and H74x plug regulator does not seems to be > > available anymore. But it would be nice to be corrected here. > > According to one dealer Web-site, what I think are those connector shells are > now out of production. > > However, as I indicated, I have located several places that still have some, > and I have ordered some to verify that they are the right thing. If they are > (they should be here at the end of the week), I will send another message with > part numbers, sources, etc. > > Noel > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Jul 25 20:39:06 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 18:39:06 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <8E844B6F-46FE-4870-8C67-9E9D35037CF8@avanthar.com> References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <8E844B6F-46FE-4870-8C67-9E9D35037CF8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: >> For example, If I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on a Leica bellows, then On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, Zane Healy wrote: > Why would I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on my Leica?s, will it even > cover the 35mm frame (or full frame sensor)? I wouldn't. But, I'd like to use the leica BELLOWS on the digital camera. with some minor mods to the adapters, I might even be able to use the auto-focus (for fine adjust, after course setting with the bellows). I do, however, occasionally use Leica lenses on M4/3 and Sony-E. THOSE adapters are very readily available and cheap. From dave at 661.org Wed Jul 25 20:53:49 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:53:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SCO Skunkware? Message-ID: Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Jul 25 21:40:13 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 19:40:13 -0700 Subject: SCO Skunkware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I think I have the disks, let me dig out what I have On 7/25/18 6:53 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 21:53:05 2018 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:53:05 -0300 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: References: <5B54ACB7.2090900@pico-systems.com> <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <8E844B6F-46FE-4870-8C67-9E9D35037CF8@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <7f889259-9898-3bd4-992e-9b7555002d18@gmail.com> On 2018-07-25 10:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> For example, If I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on a Leica bellows, then > > On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, Zane Healy wrote: >> Why would I want to use a Micro-4/3 lens on my Leica?s, will it even >> cover the 35mm frame (or full frame sensor)? > > I wouldn't.? But, I'd like to use the leica BELLOWS on the digital > camera. with some minor mods to the adapters, I might even be able to > use the auto-focus (for fine adjust, after course setting with the > bellows). > > I do, however, occasionally use Leica lenses on M4/3 and Sony-E. THOSE > adapters are very readily available and cheap. > I use Olympus bellows from the OM series with my M4/3 camera they are much easier to adapt.? With the combination of bellows and microscope objectives for lens I have been able to obtain very high magnification. Paul. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 22:32:49 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 04:32:49 +0100 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: > There are, however, DEC products other than the RK05 which had different > transformers for 50 Hz and 60 Hz. For example, the H771 power supply used > in the RX01 and RX02. There were three H771 models, The H771A for 90-132 > VAC 60 Hz, The H771C for 90-132 VAC 50 Hz, and the H771D for 180-264 VAC 50 > Hz. The H771A uses a transformer rated for 60 Hz. The H771C and H771D both > use the same 50 Hz rated transformer, with different wiring. The H771C and > H771D also require one of two different wiring harnesses to cover the > entire mains voltage range, e.g., 90-120 VAC vs 100-132 VAC for the H771C, > or twice those voltages for the H771D. IIRC that's a ferroresonant transformer (with a capacitor to resonate one of the windings to a harmonic of the power line frequency), so it's not surprising it has to be changed for 50Hz or 60Hz input. -tony From useddec at gmail.com Wed Jul 25 23:21:53 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 23:21:53 -0500 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: I can't find my IPB, but the maintenance manual shows there were both 50 and 60 hz versions made. I think I've shipped them overseas, but never modified them. I did ship a lot of RX02 drives overseas, and to properly convert them the pulleys, belts, and wiring harness had to be swapped. We were always on the lookout for parts. I still have a few different wiring harnesses around here somewhere. BA11-K conversions were also common. I still have interesting stories and parts about them. What gets me with the RK05 is how you can swap pulleys without swapping belts. A few products had pulleys with two grooves, one for 50, the other for 60. But you still needed a different belt. Paul On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:32 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > There are, however, DEC products other than the RK05 which had different > > transformers for 50 Hz and 60 Hz. For example, the H771 power supply used > > in the RX01 and RX02. There were three H771 models, The H771A for 90-132 > > VAC 60 Hz, The H771C for 90-132 VAC 50 Hz, and the H771D for 180-264 VAC > 50 > > Hz. The H771A uses a transformer rated for 60 Hz. The H771C and H771D > both > > use the same 50 Hz rated transformer, with different wiring. The H771C > and > > H771D also require one of two different wiring harnesses to cover the > > entire mains voltage range, e.g., 90-120 VAC vs 100-132 VAC for the > H771C, > > or twice those voltages for the H771D. > > IIRC that's a ferroresonant transformer (with a capacitor to resonate one > of the > windings to a harmonic of the power line frequency), so it's not > surprising it has > to be changed for 50Hz or 60Hz input. > > -tony > From fondazione at museodelcomputer.org Wed Jul 25 09:24:53 2018 From: fondazione at museodelcomputer.org (Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 16:24:53 +0200 Subject: R: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <37404C0E049143B2850ABDFDB6A13FE9@HP8100Guardia> > Good info! Don't know how I could miss this one, it is even cheaper than > the 345. I think I wanted to stick to the same type as the ones in the > panel. I've buy these lamps from Oshino Lamps, the original supplier for a good price. Minimun quantity 100 pcs Alberto --------------------------------------------- Alberto Rubinelli - Fondazione Museo del Computer Via per Occhieppo, 29 13891 CAMBURZANO (BI) Tel 015 8853201 Fax 015 8853202 Mobile 335 6026632 mail : alberto at museodelcomputer.org ------------------------------------------------ From u.tagge at gmx.de Wed Jul 25 10:54:55 2018 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 17:54:55 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/23 with RL02 on - eBay US Message-ID: <333e4d44-6f52-41f2-1fe0-8ff79e9dc835@gmx.de> Just spotted this auction on eBay US Item: 263824036905 Location is: Glenview, Illinois Not cheap, but the seller is open for offers. Not affiliated with the seller. From tammy-lists at wiztech.biz Wed Jul 25 15:03:24 2018 From: tammy-lists at wiztech.biz (Tammy Firefly) Date: Wed, 25 Jul 2018 14:03:24 -0600 Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's In-Reply-To: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> References: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> Message-ID: Diane, Ill take them. What do you want for them? Thanks --Tammy On 7/25/18 1:56 PM, Diane Bruce via cctalk wrote: > I have two Livingston PM-11's (http://portmasters.com/faq.html) and I haven't needed > either of these in a long time. Is anyone interested in them? > > Diane > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 01:01:51 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 01:01:51 -0500 Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's In-Reply-To: <03f101d42457$c6eb2180$54c16480$@photojim.ca> References: <20180725195633.GA4172@night.db.net> <03f101d42457$c6eb2180$54c16480$@photojim.ca> Message-ID: I don't know anything about the size, but I might be able to help get one from IL to SK. Paul On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 3:40 PM, Jim MacKenzie via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If shipping to Regina, SK wouldn't be objectionable, I'd take one of these > off your hands. I've wanted one for awhile. > > Jim > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Diane > Bruce > via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2018 1:57 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Pair of Portmaster II's > > I have two Livingston PM-11's (http://portmasters.com/faq.html) and I > haven't needed either of these in a long time. Is anyone interested in > them? > > Diane > -- > - db at FreeBSD.org db at db.net http://www.db.net/~db > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 02:19:20 2018 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:19:20 +0200 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: 2018-07-26 6:21 GMT+02:00 Paul Anderson via cctalk : > I can't find my IPB, but the maintenance manual shows there were both 50 > and 60 hz versions made. > > I think I've shipped them overseas, but never modified them. I did ship a > lot of RX02 drives overseas, and to properly convert them the pulleys, > belts, and wiring harness had to be swapped. We were always on the lookout > for parts. I still have a few different wiring harnesses around here > somewhere. > > BA11-K conversions were also common. I still have interesting stories and > parts about them. > > What gets me with the RK05 is how you can swap pulleys without swapping > belts. A few products had pulleys with two grooves, one for 50, the other > for 60. But you still needed a different belt. > You need to move the motor to a new position in the RK05. The drive is already prepared for all this. It is just the pulley, moving the motor and the 220VAC jumper that is needed. /Mattis > > Paul > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:32 PM, Tony Duell via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > There are, however, DEC products other than the RK05 which had > different > > > transformers for 50 Hz and 60 Hz. For example, the H771 power supply > used > > > in the RX01 and RX02. There were three H771 models, The H771A for > 90-132 > > > VAC 60 Hz, The H771C for 90-132 VAC 50 Hz, and the H771D for 180-264 > VAC > > 50 > > > Hz. The H771A uses a transformer rated for 60 Hz. The H771C and H771D > > both > > > use the same 50 Hz rated transformer, with different wiring. The H771C > > and > > > H771D also require one of two different wiring harnesses to cover the > > > entire mains voltage range, e.g., 90-120 VAC vs 100-132 VAC for the > > H771C, > > > or twice those voltages for the H771D. > > > > IIRC that's a ferroresonant transformer (with a capacitor to resonate one > > of the > > windings to a harmonic of the power line frequency), so it's not > > surprising it has > > to be changed for 50Hz or 60Hz input. > > > > -tony > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Jul 26 02:42:24 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:42:24 +0200 (CEST) Subject: R: HP-2116 front panel lamps In-Reply-To: <37404C0E049143B2850ABDFDB6A13FE9@HP8100Guardia> References: <37404C0E049143B2850ABDFDB6A13FE9@HP8100Guardia> Message-ID: On Wed, 25 Jul 2018, it was written > I've buy these lamps from Oshino Lamps, the original supplier for a good > price. Minimun quantity 100 pcs Speaking of Oshino Lamps, I had a phone call yesterday with their German branch after I had inquired them for a distributor; I saw the OL-345 on their web sites so I thought I'd just ask them. Well, it was very "interesting". First question I was asked: How on earth did I undig this oooold type. Well, it is on their web sites, I told them. Huh, well, it may be listed there, but they don't have them as active in their system. The last time they sold the OL-345 was 15 years ago. They "could" ask Japan if they had some in stock, but for 100 pcs I could just forget that. Another question: does it have to be the exact same type? And so on... So my conclusion is that they don't have/produce/know of the old lamp types. Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 26 05:53:31 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 06:53:31 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180726105331.4CA7718C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fritz Mueller > If these are what you are talking about, I ordered up a bunch a couple > years ago when I rebuilt the power harness for my 11/45, and can attest > they are the right thing: Yeah, those are the ones. Note that ConnectorPeople has a relatively large minimum order. Quest has the male connectors (i.e. female pins), but not the females. Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 07:23:13 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:23:13 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC Message-ID: For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/tts_index.html There's even a ready to go board here: https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 =] -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 07:26:17 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:26:17 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> Message-ID: Omg finally I know why airplanes use 400Hz, thank you! Honestly that's been on my mind for years. =] On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:06 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >>> On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:50 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech < > >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 > >> Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They > >> are not that expensive by now. > >> > >> I wouldn't worry about "true sine wave". That seems more of a marketing > >> thing anyway, and motors don't care. Just feed them with a variable > >> frequency motor drive and all should be well. > >> > >>> And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR > >> THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life > time. > >>> I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of > >> saturated magnetic field. Better check first. > >> > >> That doesn't sound right. If you run the frequency up high enough you > >> might get into problems with magnetic materials not designed for it. > And > >> much lower probably gives you reduced torque. But 50 vs. 60 Hz is a > >> trivial difference for a motor, I can't see any reasons for that to > cause > >> trouble. I routinely run my lathe at half frequency if not less, and it > >> doesn't complain. > >> > > I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as > > high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power > > has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single > power > > specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor > > has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. > > > > Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz > > models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz > > operation. > > > It has to do with the physics of flux linkages and saturation. Under > sinusoidal operation, voltage is proportional to the product of maximum > flux and frequency. If you fix the voltage, in order to operate at 5/6 > of the nominal frequency you need a flux that is 6/5 the nominal one. > This might not seem like much more flux, but due to the nonlinear > magnetization characteristics, the required magnetization current will > not be 6/5 times the nominal current, but it could in fact be three > times higher or even more, and highly distorted. > > Under-frequency and over-voltage can kill power transformers easily. > > A transformer designed to operate at 50 Hz will therefore have much more > iron mass in its core, power and voltage being equal. That's why in > airplanes power is distributed at 400Hz; the transformers will be much > lighter. > > carlos. > > > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From w2hx at w2hx.com Thu Jul 26 08:55:04 2018 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:55:04 +0000 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com>, Message-ID: <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> That is not the whole story of 400Hz. The other part of that story is that now, all of the downstream equipment that uses the 400 Hz can have much simpler AC to DC power supplies in them. At 400 Hz it is much easier to regulate and filter out ripple. So instead of every piece of equipment each having lots of large capacitors, now they only need small capacitors. Space is at a premium as well as weight on a plane. ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Anders Nelson via cctalk Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 8:26 AM To: Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts; carlos_murillo at ieee.org Subject: Re: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? Omg finally I know why airplanes use 400Hz, thank you! Honestly that's been on my mind for years. =] On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 2:06 PM Carlos E Murillo-Sanchez via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Eric Smith via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 7:54 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > >>> On Jul 25, 2018, at 9:50 AM, GerardCJAT via cctech < > >> cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >>> Why don't you simply power it through an inverter that will output 60 > >> Hz, eventually even "down to" 120 V , true sine wave, of course ??? They > >> are not that expensive by now. > >> > >> I wouldn't worry about "true sine wave". That seems more of a marketing > >> thing anyway, and motors don't care. Just feed them with a variable > >> frequency motor drive and all should be well. > >> > >>> And be carefull : motor designed for 60 Hz, running "under" 50 Hz, OR > >> THE OPPOSITE, I do not recall !!!, display a significant reduced life > time. > >>> I have to check which is which, but I know this is a question of > >> saturated magnetic field. Better check first. > >> > >> That doesn't sound right. If you run the frequency up high enough you > >> might get into problems with magnetic materials not designed for it. > And > >> much lower probably gives you reduced torque. But 50 vs. 60 Hz is a > >> trivial difference for a motor, I can't see any reasons for that to > cause > >> trouble. I routinely run my lathe at half frequency if not less, and it > >> doesn't complain. > >> > > I'm not sure about motors, but 60 Hz power transformers can't handle as > > high a maximum power (or current) when used for 50 Hz. The maximum power > > has to be derated. Some transformers are specified/sold with a single > power > > specification for both 50 and 60 Hz use, which just means that the vendor > > has built the necessary derating into even the 60 Hz specification. > > > > Some products were built using different transformers for 50 vs 60 Hz > > models, and the 60 Hz models uses a transformer inadequate for 50 Hz > > operation. > > > It has to do with the physics of flux linkages and saturation. Under > sinusoidal operation, voltage is proportional to the product of maximum > flux and frequency. If you fix the voltage, in order to operate at 5/6 > of the nominal frequency you need a flux that is 6/5 the nominal one. > This might not seem like much more flux, but due to the nonlinear > magnetization characteristics, the required magnetization current will > not be 6/5 times the nominal current, but it could in fact be three > times higher or even more, and highly distorted. > > Under-frequency and over-voltage can kill power transformers easily. > > A transformer designed to operate at 50 Hz will therefore have much more > iron mass in its core, power and voltage being equal. That's why in > airplanes power is distributed at 400Hz; the transformers will be much > lighter. > > carlos. > > > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 26 09:49:13 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:49:13 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: > On Jul 26, 2018, at 9:55 AM, W2HX via cctalk wrote: > > That is not the whole story of 400Hz. The other part of that story is that now, all of the downstream equipment that uses the 400 Hz can have much simpler AC to DC power supplies in them. At 400 Hz it is much easier to regulate and filter out ripple. So instead of every piece of equipment each having lots of large capacitors, now they only need small capacitors. Space is at a premium as well as weight on a plane. This even applies to some terrestrial equipment. CDC used 400 Hz 3-phase power for the 6000 series mainframes. 3-phase power cuts the ripple by a large fraction and raises the ripple frequency 3x; 400 Hz instead of 60 or 50 raises the ripple frequency further by that ratio. So high power supplies get much smaller, both in the transformers and in the filter capacitors. The 400 Hz came from motor-generators. Those also clean up the power a lot, because any spikes or brief dips are absorbed by the mechanical intertia and don't appear on the output. paul From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 09:54:00 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:54:00 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: To get that power, did they have to use a rotary convertor from 60Hz 3-phase to get 400Hz? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_converter =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 10:49 AM Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > On Jul 26, 2018, at 9:55 AM, W2HX via cctalk > wrote: > > > > That is not the whole story of 400Hz. The other part of that story is > that now, all of the downstream equipment that uses the 400 Hz can have > much simpler AC to DC power supplies in them. At 400 Hz it is much easier > to regulate and filter out ripple. So instead of every piece of equipment > each having lots of large capacitors, now they only need small capacitors. > Space is at a premium as well as weight on a plane. > > This even applies to some terrestrial equipment. CDC used 400 Hz 3-phase > power for the 6000 series mainframes. 3-phase power cuts the ripple by a > large fraction and raises the ripple frequency 3x; 400 Hz instead of 60 or > 50 raises the ripple frequency further by that ratio. So high power > supplies get much smaller, both in the transformers and in the filter > capacitors. > > The 400 Hz came from motor-generators. Those also clean up the power a > lot, because any spikes or brief dips are absorbed by the mechanical > intertia and don't appear on the output. > > paul > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 10:14:12 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 08:14:12 -0700 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On 07/26/2018 07:54 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > To get that power, did they have to use a rotary convertor from 60Hz > 3-phase to get 400Hz? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_converter As Paul mentioned, less a "rotary converter" than a AC motor-AC generator hookup. One advantage is that the rotational inertia in such a setup does have the ability to smooth over small power disruptions. Such MG setups were very common in industry before modern semiconductors. When I had a summer job showing movies at a drive-in theater (a long time ago), the supply for the carbon-arc lamps was a 40hp motor powered by 3-phase 60Hz, driving a DC generator. In WWII radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called "dynamotors" were used to supply the high-voltage anode voltage for the tubes. Electroplating shops similarly used large DC generator setups to supply plating current. 3 phase full-wave rectified AC has approximately 87% DC content at 6x the supply frequency. So for 400Hz, the ripple is only 13 percent at 2400 Hz before filtering. --Chuck From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 10:22:52 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:22:52 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: Best mailing list ever. Thanks for the detail! =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 11:14 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 07/26/2018 07:54 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > To get that power, did they have to use a rotary convertor from 60Hz > > 3-phase to get 400Hz? > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_converter > > As Paul mentioned, less a "rotary converter" than a AC motor-AC > generator hookup. One advantage is that the rotational inertia in such > a setup does have the ability to smooth over small power disruptions. > > Such MG setups were very common in industry before modern > semiconductors. When I had a summer job showing movies at a drive-in > theater (a long time ago), the supply for the carbon-arc lamps was a > 40hp motor powered by 3-phase 60Hz, driving a DC generator. In WWII > radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called "dynamotors" were used to > supply the high-voltage anode voltage for the tubes. Electroplating > shops similarly used large DC generator setups to supply plating current. > > 3 phase full-wave rectified AC has approximately 87% DC content at 6x > the supply frequency. So for 400Hz, the ripple is only 13 percent at > 2400 Hz before filtering. > > --Chuck > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 10:26:56 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:26:56 +0100 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Such MG setups were very common in industry before modern > semiconductors. When I had a summer job showing movies at a drive-in > theater (a long time ago), the supply for the carbon-arc lamps was a > 40hp motor powered by 3-phase 60Hz, driving a DC generator. In WWII > radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called "dynamotors" were used to > supply the high-voltage anode voltage for the tubes. Electroplating > shops similarly used large DC generator setups to supply plating current. I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature windings have to be wound on the same core). -tony From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 26 11:02:20 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:02:20 -0500 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <5B59F08C.6010802@pico-systems.com> On 07/26/2018 09:54 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > To get that power, did they have to use a rotary convertor from 60Hz > 3-phase to get 400Hz? > > IBM mainframes in the late 1950's early 1960's (707x and 709x series) used motor generators to generate 400 Hz 3-phase power, which was distributed to all the major components. For the 360, they came up with a solid state version, it ran the CPU, memory and such on 2500 Hz single-phase power, using a "converter-inverter". It rectified and filtered the 3-phase 50- or 60-Hz input to DC, and then used ultra-fast SCRs to invert it. But, the energy stored in the filter caps in that was way smaller than the rotational energy in a motor generator set. So, the 360 was susceptible to power glitches and dips. For the 370, they went back to a motor-generator set actually INSIDE the CPU cabinet to produce 415 Hz 3-phase power. Larger systems often had a UPS with electronic inverters in them. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Jul 26 11:05:14 2018 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:05:14 -0500 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <5B59F13A.9010807@pico-systems.com> On 07/26/2018 10:26 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> Such MG setups were very common in industry before modern >> semiconductors. When I had a summer job showing movies at a drive-in >> theater (a long time ago), the supply for the carbon-arc lamps was a >> 40hp motor powered by 3-phase 60Hz, driving a DC generator. In WWII >> radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called "dynamotors" were used to >> supply the high-voltage anode voltage for the tubes. Electroplating >> shops similarly used large DC generator setups to supply plating current. > I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor > (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a > generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a > dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature > windings have to be wound on the same core). > Yes, a dynamotor has ONE armature with a commutator on each end. There is one set of field poles for the whole unit, too. The low-voltage input and high-voltage output windings are laid in the same slots in the armature. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 26 11:15:13 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:15:13 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <71846570-3A2C-449D-B7AE-E95E1483FBE3@comcast.net> > On Jul 26, 2018, at 10:54 AM, Anders Nelson wrote: > > To get that power, did they have to use a rotary convertor from 60Hz 3-phase to get 400Hz? > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotary_converter No, a motor-generator: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor?generator. Same purpose, but constructed as a motor attached to a generator, rather than the two merged into a single armature. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/cdc/cyber/cyber_70/fieldEngr/60142400B_6000_Series_Site_Prep_Sep65.pdf shows the ones CDC used, starting on page 27. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 26 11:17:07 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:17:07 -0400 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <547EA57B-7B12-437B-982E-45705B10952B@comcast.net> > On Jul 26, 2018, at 11:26 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 4:14 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > >> Such MG setups were very common in industry before modern >> semiconductors. When I had a summer job showing movies at a drive-in >> theater (a long time ago), the supply for the carbon-arc lamps was a >> 40hp motor powered by 3-phase 60Hz, driving a DC generator. In WWII >> radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called "dynamotors" were used to >> supply the high-voltage anode voltage for the tubes. Electroplating >> shops similarly used large DC generator setups to supply plating current. > > I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor > (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a > generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a > dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature > windings have to be wound on the same core). Yes, so Wikipedia is wrong to describe a dynamotor as a motor-generator and show it in the m-g article rather than the rotary transformer article. I remember the dynamotors shown in that photo, my father had that exact unit and several other "Command Set" radios. The dynamotors clearly had a single armature, with input brushes at one side and output brushes at the other. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 11:28:58 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 09:28:58 -0700 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> Message-ID: <7077cb5d-29fe-957b-a4b8-95950f2d8f2e@sydex.com> On 07/26/2018 08:26 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor > (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a > generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a > dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature > windings have to be wound on the same core). Hence my term "unitized", which I thought to give the basic idea without going into excessive detail on an obsolete device. In connection with similar low-power high-voltage supplies, I could also have mentioned vibrator-transformer supplies, run from DC battery, used very often in lower-power tube gear, such as auto radios and even photo strobe flash. The high-voltage DC was obtained from the transformer secondary by either a traditional tube (very often cold cathode gas) rectifier, later solid-state (selenium or silicon) or an additional set of contacts on the vibrator itself. Notorious for kicking up all sorts of RF noise. But this is way off-topic. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 11:35:57 2018 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:35:57 +0100 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: <7077cb5d-29fe-957b-a4b8-95950f2d8f2e@sydex.com> References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> <7077cb5d-29fe-957b-a4b8-95950f2d8f2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/26/2018 08:26 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor >> (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a >> generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a >> dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature >> windings have to be wound on the same core). > > Hence my term "unitized", which I thought to give the basic idea without > going into excessive detail on an obsolete device. This is classiccmp. We 'do' obsolete devices here :-) > > In connection with similar low-power high-voltage supplies, I could also > have mentioned vibrator-transformer supplies, run from DC battery, used > very often in lower-power tube gear, such as auto radios and even photo > strobe flash. Indeed. I've never seen a photoflash using such a supply, but I have read about them. One day I'll add one to my collection. They were commonly used in car radios over here too. > > The high-voltage DC was obtained from the transformer secondary by > either a traditional tube (very often cold cathode gas) rectifier, later 0Z4 IiIRC wa a common rectifier valve. > solid-state (selenium or silicon) or an additional set of contacts on > the vibrator itself. Notorious for kicking up all sorts of RF noise. The latter was known as a 'synchronous vibrator' (at least over here) as the 2 sets of contacts were synchronised to (a) apply a pulse to one end of the primary winding and (b) select the appropriate end of the secondary which will have an high voltage pulse of the correct polarity. A mad friend of mine commented that a google search for a spare part for his car radio directed him to an awful lot of 'adult' sites... -tony From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 26 12:12:42 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:12:42 -0700 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That?s pretty cool, and looks like it would work well for a Darkroom automation project I have in mind. From the DECTalk side of things. Could this take the place of DECTalk hardware in a VAX/VMS environment? Zane > On Jul 26, 2018, at 5:23 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: > > https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/tts_index.html > > There's even a ready to go board here: > > https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 > > =] > > -- > -- > Anders Nelson > +1 (517) 775-6129 > www.erogear.com From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 12:34:51 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 10:34:51 -0700 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> <26ec6a2c-4642-d078-fcc7-36cbd199eea9@gmail.com> <1532613305151.73131@w2hx.com> <7077cb5d-29fe-957b-a4b8-95950f2d8f2e@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 07/26/2018 09:35 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > Indeed. I've never seen a photoflash using such a supply, but I have read > about them. One day I'll add one to my collection. I recall fooling with a 60s era Dormeyer model. Not only did it use a vibrator supply, but also a rechargeable stainless-steel enclosed battery. A very compact unit in comparison to those units using the 510V primary battery. Either was vastly more compact than the Graflex stroboflash-2x225V batteries in a very heavy supply. --Chuck From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 12:38:07 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:38:07 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It takes 9600 (8N1) serial input, and I found a forum thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34754.html "The DECTalk was a speech synthesizer (actually there were a few models). The DTC01 and 03 can do text to speech when fed ascii text over RS232." Of course you could bypass the MCU on the Adafruit board and feed it with data however you like, from a VAX bus or other means I don't understand. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 1:12 PM Zane Healy wrote: > That?s pretty cool, and looks like it would work well for a Darkroom > automation project I have in mind. > > From the DECTalk side of things. Could this take the place of DECTalk > hardware in a VAX/VMS environment? > > Zane > > > > > On Jul 26, 2018, at 5:23 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: > > > > > https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/tts_index.html > > > > There's even a ready to go board here: > > > > https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 > > > > =] > > > > -- > > -- > > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 26 12:48:36 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:48:36 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <39A321D3-A1E4-4CED-A387-E42ED9D728B8@comcast.net> If you want even older technology (that actually worked rather well) there's Votrax, which apparently is still available occasionally. paul > On Jul 26, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > It takes 9600 (8N1) serial input, and I found a forum thread: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34754.html > > "The DECTalk was a speech synthesizer (actually there were a few models). > The DTC01 and 03 can do text to speech when fed ascii text over RS232." From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 12:58:09 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:58:09 -0400 Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) In-Reply-To: <20180726105331.4CA7718C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180726105331.4CA7718C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 6:53 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Fritz Mueller > > > If these are what you are talking about, I ordered up a bunch a couple > > years ago when I rebuilt the power harness for my 11/45, and can attest > > they are the right thing: > > Yeah, those are the ones. > > Note that ConnectorPeople has a relatively large minimum order. Min order 14 @ $0.75 each. Sounds cheap to me. Get 14. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 26 13:02:46 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:02:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180726180246.A4C2A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > Min order 14 @ $0.75 each. Uh, no. I think they have a $25 minimum at checkout; try it. Noel From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 26 13:13:48 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:13:48 -0400 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164d7cc00e1-c8b-3f86@webjas-vac138.srv.aolmail.net> Chuck...? ? ?horrible? flashback of? using this? strobe? unit in my? younger? days as a photographer.? Still? was nicer than a? pocket? full of? flashbulbs? being? set off in a? suit? pocket? from? carpet static? ?electricity... We? actually? still have? of of these units in the? photographic? collection... ? ? Ed#? ?www.smecc.org? ? In a message dated 7/26/2018 10:34:57 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? Either was vastly more compact than the Graflex stroboflash-2x225V batteries in a very heavy supply. --Chuck From couryhouse at aol.com Thu Jul 26 13:51:27 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 14:51:27 -0400 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164d7ee7687-c8a-4338@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> smecc has? stashed a? huge? mother gen? set? ? 115? 60cy? in? 115 400 cy? out. was used to? run? ? rca avq? 10? raradr.... we? have.... but? could? run many? ?many things... it is? huge,,, these things exist out there? if? you need one,.... ? Ed#? www.smecc.org? In a message dated 7/26/2018 9:36:04 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 5:28 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 07/26/2018 08:26 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I believe if you want to be pedantic that a motor-generator set is a motor >> (with an armature/rotor and a field/stator) mechanically coupled to a >> generator (with its own armature/rotor and field/stator) whereas a >> dynamotor has a common field/stator (and possibly both armature >> windings have to be wound on the same core). > > Hence my term "unitized", which I thought to give the basic idea without > going into excessive detail on an obsolete device. This is classiccmp. We 'do' obsolete devices here :-) > > In connection with similar low-power high-voltage supplies, I could also > have mentioned vibrator-transformer supplies, run from DC battery, used > very often in lower-power tube gear, such as auto radios and even photo > strobe flash. Indeed. I've never seen a photoflash using such a supply, but I have read about them. One day I'll add one to my collection. They were commonly used in car radios over here too. > > The high-voltage DC was obtained from the transformer secondary by > either a traditional tube (very often cold cathode gas) rectifier, later 0Z4 IiIRC wa a common rectifier valve. > solid-state (selenium or silicon) or an additional set of contacts on > the vibrator itself. Notorious for kicking up all sorts of RF noise. The latter was known as a 'synchronous vibrator' (at least over here) as the 2 sets of contacts were synchronised to (a) apply a pulse to one end of the primary winding and (b) select the appropriate end of the secondary which will have an high voltage pulse of the correct polarity. A mad friend of mine commented that a google search for a spare part for his car radio directed him to an awful lot of 'adult' sites... -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 26 13:57:27 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 19:57:27 +0100 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders > Nelson via cctalk > Sent: 26 July 2018 13:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Epson DECTalk IC > > For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: > > https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/ > tts_index.html > > There's even a ready to go board here: > > https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 > > =] > > -- > -- > Anders Nelson > +1 (517) 775-6129 > www.erogear.com From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 14:12:05 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:12:05 -0400 Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) In-Reply-To: <20180726180246.A4C2A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20180726180246.A4C2A18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 2:02 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > Min order 14 @ $0.75 each. > > Uh, no. I think they have a $25 minimum at checkout; try it. Ah, you meant min order total. I just saw that this specific part had a min order. Yeah... lots of places have a min online order amount which makes it infeasible to buy a handful of parts. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Thu Jul 26 14:15:19 2018 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:15:19 -0700 Subject: 400Hz supplies; was: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: <164d7ee7687-c8a-4338@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164d7ee7687-c8a-4338@webjas-vad021.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: <498ced07-d091-f60c-7df4-f9d137db9df8@sydex.com> On 07/26/2018 11:51 AM, Ed Sharpe wrote: > > smecc has stashed a huge mother gen set 115 60cy in 115 > 400 cy out. was used to run rca avq 10 raradr.... we have.... > but could run many many things... it is huge,,, these things > exist out there if you need one,... 400Hz power was also used in aviation gear. I remember having a stock of small surplus 400Hz transformers salvaged from various bits of equipment purchased on Chicago's "Surplus Row". Transformers are much smaller than their 50/60 Hz cousins. On the other hand, when I worked in a steel mill, much of the power distribution was 25Hz. Transformers were much larger. At some point, one of the mills converted their lighting from incandescent to mercury-vapor running from that 25Hz supply. I'm surprised that nobody experienced seizures from the flicker. --Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Jul 26 14:19:46 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 15:19:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC power connectors (UNIBUS PDP-11s, mostly) Message-ID: <20180726191946.1D4A418C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > I just saw that this specific part had a min order. They have a min $10 order on _every_ part, and also a min of $25 on the total order. Noel From healyzh at avanthar.com Thu Jul 26 14:31:07 2018 From: healyzh at avanthar.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 12:31:07 -0700 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> References: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> Here is what hurts. I found one, 20+ years ago, in a Goodwill of all places, and passed on it. After all, why would I ever want it. I?ve wanted one for most of the last 20 years. :-) Zane > On Jul 26, 2018, at 11:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders >> Nelson via cctalk >> Sent: 26 July 2018 13:23 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Epson DECTalk IC >> >> For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: >> >> https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/ >> tts_index.html >> >> There's even a ready to go board here: >> >> https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 >> >> =] >> >> -- >> -- >> Anders Nelson >> +1 (517) 775-6129 >> www.erogear.com > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 15:02:01 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:02:01 +0000 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> References: , <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I have the DCT01, and I can say that the DTC01 sounds better than the .wav file example on the Adafruit website. Fun to hear the DTC01 ramble along when connected to a VT220 and push the PrintScreen button (IIRC). Works nicely. AFAIK, in Stephen Hawking?s wheelchair was a DTC01, and it was th?t unit that you heard for Stephen?s speaking. ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Rob Jarratt via cctalk Verzonden: Thursday, July 26, 2018 8:57:27 PM Aan: 'Anders Nelson'; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Onderwerp: RE: Epson DECTalk IC I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Anders > Nelson via cctalk > Sent: 26 July 2018 13:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Epson DECTalk IC > > For those wanting some DECTalk in their lives without the bulk: > > https://global.epson.com/products_and_drivers/semicon/products/speech/ > tts_index.html > > There's even a ready to go board here: > > https://www.adafruit.com/product/924 > > =] > > -- > -- > Anders Nelson > +1 (517) 775-6129 > www.erogear.com From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 15:04:29 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:04:29 +0000 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> References: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> Message-ID: On 07/26/2018 03:31 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > Here is what hurts. I found one, 20+ years ago, in a Goodwill of all places, and passed on it. After all, why would I ever want it. I?ve wanted one for most of the last 20 years. :-) > > Zane > > > >> On Jul 26, 2018, at 11:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: >> >> I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. >> >> I still have one.? Sadly, over time, the EPROMS faded away and I never had the chance to remake them.? At this point I am not sure I still have copies of the images. bill From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 15:07:52 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 20:07:52 +0000 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <39A321D3-A1E4-4CED-A387-E42ED9D728B8@comcast.net> References: , <39A321D3-A1E4-4CED-A387-E42ED9D728B8@comcast.net> Message-ID: Ahhh yes, I remember the Votrax, SC-01. There was an other chip that you programmed with phonemes, the SP0256-AL1 (IIRC). I must have it somewhere, forgot the manufacturer. ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Paul Koning via cctalk Verzonden: Thursday, July 26, 2018 7:48:36 PM Aan: Anders Nelson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Epson DECTalk IC If you want even older technology (that actually worked rather well) there's Votrax, which apparently is still available occasionally. paul > On Jul 26, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > It takes 9600 (8N1) serial input, and I found a forum thread: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34754.html > > "The DECTalk was a speech synthesizer (actually there were a few models). > The DTC01 and 03 can do text to speech when fed ascii text over RS232." From spectre at floodgap.com Thu Jul 26 15:12:22 2018 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 13:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> from Zane Healy via cctalk at "Jul 26, 18 12:31:07 pm" Message-ID: <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com> I've got a serial port DECTalk Express. Works great except for the battery pack. No, you can't have it. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Vote anarchist! ------------------------------------------------------------ From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 15:20:40 2018 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 16:20:40 -0400 Subject: ABLE, other non DEC boards. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 4:36 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > I had a nice talk with an old friend earlier today, and we talked about how > some companies were so proud of their products that they never put their > name on it. Sometimes a logo, sometimes only a part number. We put our name and phone number (1-800-SRC-DATA) on all our boards at Software Results. > While looking for the ABLE (ACT) board... I came across: > Simpact Assoc inc ICP-1600 I have one of those. They were our main competitor. Finding the software would be a challenge these days, but it's only good for bisync comms from a VAX (and who does that anymore?) -ethan From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Jul 26 15:29:26 2018 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:29:26 +0100 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> Message-ID: <002601d4251f$593b4f20$0bb1ed60$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill > Gunshannon via cctalk > Sent: 26 July 2018 21:04 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Epson DECTalk IC > > > > On 07/26/2018 03:31 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > Here is what hurts. I found one, 20+ years ago, in a Goodwill of all > > places, and passed on it. After all, why would I ever want it. I?ve > > wanted one for most of the last 20 years. :-) > > > > Zane > > > > > > > >> On Jul 26, 2018, at 11:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > >> > >> I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. > >> > >> > > I still have one. Sadly, over time, the EPROMS faded away and I never had > the chance to remake them. At this point I am not sure I still have copies of > the images. > Someone on this list must have images surely? Regards Rob From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 16:02:55 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:02:55 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <002601d4251f$593b4f20$0bb1ed60$@ntlworld.com> References: <001201d42512$7faadc50$7f0094f0$@ntlworld.com> <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> <002601d4251f$593b4f20$0bb1ed60$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: The SP0256A-AL2 was made by General Instrument which morphed into Microchip Technology . There is a companion CTS256A-AL2 that holds a text-to-phoneme assembler in it, I've had the pair for 10 years but haven't hooked them up yet. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 4:29 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Bill > > Gunshannon via cctalk > > Sent: 26 July 2018 21:04 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Epson DECTalk IC > > > > > > > > On 07/26/2018 03:31 PM, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > Here is what hurts. I found one, 20+ years ago, in a Goodwill of all > > > places, and passed on it. After all, why would I ever want it. I?ve > > > wanted one for most of the last 20 years. :-) > > > > > > Zane > > > > > > > > > > > >> On Jul 26, 2018, at 11:57 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> I'd love to find a real DTC01, I remember encountering one in 1985. > > >> > > >> > > > > I still have one. Sadly, over time, the EPROMS faded away and I never > had > > the chance to remake them. At this point I am not sure I still have > copies of > > the images. > > > > > Someone on this list must have images surely? > > Regards > > Rob > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Jul 26 16:03:41 2018 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 17:03:41 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <39A321D3-A1E4-4CED-A387-E42ED9D728B8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <64E6C98A-CD97-4B39-9F3F-D28B78915A45@comcast.net> I came across Votrax at University of Illinois, where they attached Votrax boxes with that chip in it to the PLATO terminals. You could write programs ("lessons") that would talk to you, and the software would generate the correct data stream. It couldn't handle straight English because of the spelling complications, but there was a semi-phonetic English notation that would work. It did handle German, Esperanto, Spanish, and IPA. For a test case, someone fed it the German sentence "Auf den Autobahnen gibt es keine Geschwindigkeitsbegrenzungen" and it handled that fine. :-) paul > On Jul 26, 2018, at 4:07 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Ahhh yes, I remember the Votrax, SC-01. > There was an other chip that you programmed with phonemes, > the SP0256-AL1 (IIRC). I must have it somewhere, forgot the manufacturer. > > > Van: cctalk namens Paul Koning via cctalk > Verzonden: Thursday, July 26, 2018 7:48:36 PM > Aan: Anders Nelson; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: Epson DECTalk IC > > If you want even older technology (that actually worked rather well) there's Votrax, which apparently is still available occasionally. > > paul > > > > On Jul 26, 2018, at 1:38 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > > > > It takes 9600 (8N1) serial input, and I found a forum thread: > > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/archive/index.php/t-34754.html > > > > "The DECTalk was a speech synthesizer (actually there were a few models). > > The DTC01 and 03 can do text to speech when fed ascii text over RS232." From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Jul 26 19:41:13 2018 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 00:41:13 +0000 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <39A321D3-A1E4-4CED-A387-E42ED9D728B8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 07/26/2018 04:07 PM, Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > Ahhh yes, I remember the Votrax, SC-01. > There was an other chip that you programmed with phonemes, > the SP0256-AL1 (IIRC). I must have it somewhere, forgot the manufacturer. > > I have them here somewhere, too.? Got them at Radio Shack back when they still catered to experimenters. bill From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Jul 26 19:56:22 2018 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:56:22 -0300 Subject: Fwd: Looking for an HP16702A or B logic analyser mainframe In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Dear friends, I'm trying to find a nice and stuffed 16702A or B to buy, shipped to Brazil or NV, USA. B preffered but I can use the A. I'd rather have it already stuffed (a pair of LA cards, oscilloscope and who know, pattern generator) Anyone willing to part with one? I can do paypal Thanks, Alexandre From cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net Thu Jul 26 22:31:06 2018 From: cctalk at gtaylor.tnetconsulting.net (Grant Taylor) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 21:31:06 -0600 Subject: SCO Skunkware? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <82ad0e5a-ee6a-f8e5-e9d0-5a8fb50f347e@spamtrap.tnetconsulting.net> On 07/25/2018 07:53 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? I have a Skunkware CD-ROM from SCO OpenServer 5.0.6. I don't know what date that's from. Email me if you need a copy of it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die From useddec at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 00:38:36 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 00:38:36 -0500 Subject: Advanced Computer Communications UPB-HSIO Message-ID: Does anyone know anything about these or have any interest in any? Thanks, Paul From frisbie at flying-disk.com Thu Jul 26 14:49:04 2018 From: frisbie at flying-disk.com (Alan Frisbie) Date: Thu, 26 Jul 2018 11:49:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? Message-ID: <18072610490434_1E5EF@slug.flying-disk.com> Chuck Guzis wrote: > In WWII radio equipment, MGs in a unitzed form called > "dynamotors" were used to supply the high-voltage anode voltage > for the tubes. And long after WWII! In the 1960s, I had a Motorola 140D (140 for the power, "D" standing for Dynamoter) mobile radio (6 meter ham band) in my car. Everytime I keyed the mike, the dynamoter would instantly spin up with a loud whine. Such radios were normally housed in the trunk of the car and required heavy wire to carry the 12 volt battery current for the dynamoter. My Monarch 10EE lathe originally came with a big motor-generator to power the variable-speed DC motor. Later versions use thyratrons, while even later ones were solid state, but they all continued to use DC motors. The variable-speed DC drive was very similar (identical?) to elevator drives, known as the Ward-Leonard system. To bring this back to the RK05, someone asked if anyone had a copy of the RK05 IPB. If you still need it, let me know and I'll dig it out. I haven't packed it for my move yet, but the drives are. Alan From geremin at iprimus.com.au Thu Jul 26 20:00:43 2018 From: geremin at iprimus.com.au (John GEREMIN) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:00:43 +1000 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. Message-ID: Australian COMPUTER MUSEUM -- Dispersal Days -- Villawood NSW. We have been told that BULLDOZERS will demolish our Villawood storage space in 2 weeks. We have yet to find a suitable/affordable alternate space so ... "OPEN DOOR DAYS" The old fruit shop at 888 Woodville Road, VILLAWWOOD, will be open for anyone who cares to come and take anything away and help preserve our computing heritage. Hours: Sat 28th/Sun29th 9am to 9pm, then Monday-Friday 10am to 10pm, repeat the next week. Off-street parking, easiest access is from south (Hume Hwy), see Google Maps. Bring your Car, Van or Ute and enough muscle to help empty our shed. Please tell your friends and/or work colleagues. -- John GEREMIN, Honorary Treasurer, 0427 10 20 60. Australian Computer Museum Society Inc. PO Box 4005, Homebush, NSW, 2140. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From als at thangorodrim.ch Fri Jul 27 05:09:52 2018 From: als at thangorodrim.ch (Alexander Schreiber) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:09:52 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> References: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20180727100952.e3wpgdt47lbp6aqk@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 04:28:54PM -0700, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 07/25/2018 02:56 PM, Alexander Schreiber wrote: > > > Of course there are. Since both SD cards and ?SD cards have identical > > electrical and protocol interfaces, those adapters are just passive pieces > > of plastic and wires. In fact, a lot of ?SD cards sold these days come > > packaged with a ?SD to SD card adapter. > > Again, I've been misunderstood. I'm looking for an adapter that allows > one to use standard size SD cards in a MicroSD slot. Ah, sorry. > I can find only one incarnation of this idea in a rather shoddy-locking > hunk of F44 PCB with a uSD socket mounted on it. > > If someone knows of a slicker, better-designed adapter, I'd like to see it. I'm not very optimistic here, given that the ?SD card end of such an adapter is going to be quite mechanically weak due to size and thickness constraints. It would just be something that waits for a gentle accidental push to break it to pieces. Kind regards, Alex. -- "Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison From carlojpisani at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 05:17:00 2018 From: carlojpisani at gmail.com (Carlo Pisani) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:17:00 +0200 Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180727100952.e3wpgdt47lbp6aqk@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> <20180727100952.e3wpgdt47lbp6aqk@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: DVD-RAM: Is it a reliable technology? nobody has yet written about it :P From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Jul 27 06:14:26 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:14:26 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B Message-ID: Ok, so I've got the computer almost running now. I now need to fix both sense amplifier cards. One (0..4k) sometimes reads a one for bit 3 after the machine has warmed up. The other (4..8k) has a stuck one for bit 7. Swapping these cards make the errors move to the other core bank respectively. I have the newer cards, 02116-6298, not the older 02115-6001 The latter has CA3028A used as sense amplifiers. My card uses HP 1820-0183 (metal can IC from RCA). I guess that it is also a CA3028A or maybe a CA3053. Can anyone confirm this? Next, the manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70, and the same as found on the hpmuseum site) not only contains some errors (see my other post about the front panel lamps). It has also some badly scanned pages with parts missing, notably page 5-50 (PDF page 350) lacks the right part of the page. Is there a better scan available? My 1968 copy does not list the 02116-6298. Christian From james at attfield.co.uk Fri Jul 27 04:21:06 2018 From: james at attfield.co.uk (james) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 10:21:06 +0100 Subject: SCO Skunkware? Message-ID: <00fa01d4258b$263beb90$72b3c2b0$@attfield.co.uk> I have Skunkware 7 (1997) and Skunkware 98 (1998) if they will do. What is your desire? On 7/25/18 6:53 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: > > Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Jul 27 08:06:09 2018 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:06:09 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Strange third party board in PDP-11/45 Message-ID: <20180727130609.2C36B18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > As to what _else_ it is doing, and why it has the cable to the main > card... I think that it must intercept MSYN from the processor and only > let it pass if there's no hit in the cache. > (To explain why it would need to do that... normally with the MS11, > there's a static partitioning between FastBus memory and UNIBUS A > memory. So when the CPU goes to do a memory cycle, it can put the > address out on both the UNIBUS and FastBus, with the certainty that it > will only get a reply on one. So, my guess was wrong there. I had _assumed_ that when doing a memory operation, the CPU started a cycle on both busses, to minimize the delay on the UNIBUS cycle if the MS11 on the FastBus didn't have that location. (I had previously checked, and there is an 'I have that location' signal which the MS11 sends back, making the concept of a cache possible.) Well, no. In the "KB11-A CPU Maintenance Manual" (DEC-11-HKBB-D), section 7.7.1 ("Bus Control Introduction"), it says: If the address applies to a Fastbus device, that device will respond in time to inhibit the UNIBUS MSYN signal (It turns out the KB11-A is very clever; it has to delay for a bit after asserting the address, etc, signals on the UNIBUS, for de-skew, before it can assert MSYN, and during that delay, in parallel, it checks to see if the MS11 has that location.) So my theory about what that double-card does (prevent an MSYN sent to main memory on a cache hit) is apparently wrong. Which leaves the question of what that card _does_ do... The cache _does_ need to have the A and B UNIBUS tied together, so that it can snoop UNIBUS memory cycles (which are on the A UNIBUS) via the B UNIBUS (which is what it has access to on the backplane), _but_ it doesn't need a special card, with i) active logic, and b) a cable back to the main board, to do that - a regular M9200 will do that. The cable back to the main card, and the logic on the two dual-width cards, mean it wants to interfere somehow in the connection between the A and B UNIBUS. But if not the MSYN thing, what else could it be? I have pondered that question, but I can't think of anything. It can't be doing anything with interrupts or DMA, I would think, so no grant interception. So what else could it be? Anyone have any ideas? Noel From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 09:21:23 2018 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 00:21:23 +1000 Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004f01d425b5$1b9ded30$52d9c790$@gmail.com> Christian, I tried to track down details of the 1820-0183 and the manuals appear to say it's an RCA item, part number 80170 but I cant find anything with that number anywhere - you are probably on the right track with a CA3082A or similar. My experience in fixing similar faults on the memory boards of the 2116A was that the transistors were often leaky which created stuck bits. Sometimes I had to swap parts around between working and non-working bits to isolate the faulty items and it turned out exact replacements for the bad transistors were still available for purchase. If you're prepared to swap components around on your boards to troubleshoot, you might by lucky and find that the ICs are OK. David Collins -----Original Message----- From: cctalk On Behalf Of Christian Corti via cctalk Sent: Friday, 27 July 2018 9:14 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B Ok, so I've got the computer almost running now. I now need to fix both sense amplifier cards. One (0..4k) sometimes reads a one for bit 3 after the machine has warmed up. The other (4..8k) has a stuck one for bit 7. Swapping these cards make the errors move to the other core bank respectively. I have the newer cards, 02116-6298, not the older 02115-6001 The latter has CA3028A used as sense amplifiers. My card uses HP 1820-0183 (metal can IC from RCA). I guess that it is also a CA3028A or maybe a CA3053. Can anyone confirm this? Next, the manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70, and the same as found on the hpmuseum site) not only contains some errors (see my other post about the front panel lamps). It has also some badly scanned pages with parts missing, notably page 5-50 (PDF page 350) lacks the right part of the page. Is there a better scan available? My 1968 copy does not list the 02116-6298. Christian From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 11:00:23 2018 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:00:23 -0500 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com> References: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 3:12 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: > I've got a serial port DECTalk Express. Works great except for the battery > pack. No, you can't have it. That's the DTC03 and it's an acceptable substitute for those of us who can't find a DTC01 for under $300. I've wanted an 01 for years and passed up a number of chances as their value went higher and higher. For those who want to play with the DECtalk engine, there is the Windows software implementation which, last I tried, still runs in modern Windows versions. The software is "out there" and probably easy to find. When I last tried it is open to some doubt - might need to run it in a VM these days :) There is also the PC ISA card DECtalk, whose DTCxx number I forget (DTC07 maybe?) I have one "somewhere" but have never had the software for it. -j From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 11:24:18 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 12:24:18 -0400 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I'd love to find a project that interfaces the ISA and PC/104 bus to an Arduino/rPi/USB/whatever... http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?39329-USB-to-ISA-Card-Emulator-System-or-the-ISA-XT-USB-Project https://www.reenigne.org/blog/isa-bus-sniffer-update/ =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:00 PM Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 3:12 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk > wrote: > > I've got a serial port DECTalk Express. Works great except for the > battery > > pack. No, you can't have it. > > That's the DTC03 and it's an acceptable substitute for those of us who > can't find a DTC01 for under $300. I've wanted an 01 for years and > passed up a number of chances as their value went higher and higher. > > For those who want to play with the DECtalk engine, there is the > Windows software implementation which, last I tried, still runs in > modern Windows versions. The software is "out there" and probably > easy to find. When I last tried it is open to some doubt - might need > to run it in a VM these days :) > > There is also the PC ISA card DECtalk, whose DTCxx number I forget > (DTC07 maybe?) I have one "somewhere" but have never had the software > for it. > > -j > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Jul 27 11:28:48 2018 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:28:48 +0000 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com>, Message-ID: IIRC, that is indeed the DTC07. I think I have that board, together with the ?mating? loudspeaker and probably also the software. I will check next time I go to my ?museum?. Van: Jason T via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 27 juli 2018 18:00 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: Epson DECTalk IC There is also the PC ISA card DECtalk, whose DTCxx number I forget (DTC07 maybe?) I have one "somewhere" but have never had the software for it. -j From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 27 11:41:43 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:41:43 -0700 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> On 7/26/18 6:00 PM, John GEREMIN via cctalk wrote: > ?We have been told that BULLDOZERS will demolish our Villawood storage space in 2 weeks. > > We have yet to find a suitable/affordable alternate space so ... "OPEN? DOOR? DAYS" How much notice were you given of this happening? Rescues with weeks or days notice are a drag. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Jul 27 11:43:18 2018 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 09:43:18 -0700 Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <60ff1582-8ed6-7631-5f92-779f4dc6526e@bitsavers.org> I have other 2116 cpu manuals, getting time to do anything to find them or look for differences is a problem. On 7/27/18 4:14 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > Ok, so I've got the computer almost running now. I now need to fix both sense amplifier cards. One (0..4k) sometimes > reads a one for bit 3 after the machine has warmed up. The other (4..8k) has a stuck one for bit 7. > Swapping these cards make the errors move to the other core bank respectively. > > I have the newer cards, 02116-6298, not the older 02115-6001 > The latter has CA3028A used as sense amplifiers. My card uses HP 1820-0183 (metal can IC from RCA). I guess that it is > also a CA3028A or maybe a CA3053. Can anyone confirm this? > > Next, the manual on bitsavers (02116-9153_2116B_Vol2_Oct70, and the same as found on the hpmuseum site) not only > contains some errors (see my other post about the front panel lamps). It has also some badly scanned pages with parts > missing, notably page 5-50 (PDF page 350) lacks the right part of the page. Is there a better scan available? My 1968 > copy does not list the 02116-6298. > > Christian From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 12:54:27 2018 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 13:54:27 -0400 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> References: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Oh boy, what items are they letting go? -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:41 PM Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/26/18 6:00 PM, John GEREMIN via cctalk wrote: > > > We have been told that BULLDOZERS will demolish our Villawood storage > space in 2 weeks. > > > > We have yet to find a suitable/affordable alternate space so ... "OPEN > DOOR DAYS" > > How much notice were you given of this happening? > Rescues with weeks or days notice are a drag. > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Jul 27 13:15:36 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 11:15:36 -0700 (PDT) Subject: how good is the data reliability with CD ROM and DVD RAM? In-Reply-To: <20180727100952.e3wpgdt47lbp6aqk@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> References: <2A37D464-EEBF-437B-B92F-282401BC6EFB@avanthar.com> <914E38C3-EEE1-4749-80A4-731BF232C2DD@comcast.net> <45955b6a67f34ac50347a37d5402e5ec.squirrel@members.ccountry.net> <20180725215621.ldggeb3f6miwsoww@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> <60cc482d-ced9-3212-fc9b-b6a548437ab9@sydex.com> <20180727100952.e3wpgdt47lbp6aqk@mordor.angband.thangorodrim.de> Message-ID: >> Again, I've been misunderstood. I'm looking for an adapter that allows >> one to use standard size SD cards in a MicroSD slot. On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, Alexander Schreiber via cctalk wrote: > I'm not very optimistic here, given that the ?SD card end of such an > adapter is going to be quite mechanically weak due to size and thickness > constraints. It would just be something that waits for a gentle accidental > push to break it to pieces. Probably. but, ideally, the male end would be the size of a micro-sd, with a cable from it, to avoid that, and to make placement of the female (SD) end more convenient. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 27 13:23:01 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:23:01 -0400 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> References: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2018-07-27 12:41 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 7/26/18 6:00 PM, John GEREMIN via cctalk wrote: > >> ?We have been told that BULLDOZERS will demolish our Villawood storage space in 2 weeks. >> >> We have yet to find a suitable/affordable alternate space so ... "OPEN? DOOR? DAYS" > > How much notice were you given of this happening? > Rescues with weeks or days notice are a drag. > > > I don't have cites, but I seem to recall that the risk to this site has been in the air for a couple of years or more. --T From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 27 13:31:15 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 14:31:15 -0400 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: References: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2018-07-27 2:23 PM, Toby Thain via cctalk wrote: > On 2018-07-27 12:41 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 7/26/18 6:00 PM, John GEREMIN via cctalk wrote: >> >>> ?We have been told that BULLDOZERS will demolish our Villawood storage space in 2 weeks. >>> >>> We have yet to find a suitable/affordable alternate space so ... "OPEN? DOOR? DAYS" >> >> How much notice were you given of this happening? >> Rescues with weeks or days notice are a drag. >> >> >> > > > I don't have cites, but I seem to recall that the risk to this site has > been in the air for a couple of years or more. > Or I may be confusing with other Australian evictions: https://www.theage.com.au/technology/chips-are-down-for-computer-museum-20030520-gdgsdr.html The Villawood location seems to be distinct from the warehouses that the ACMS maintains? http://www.acms.org.au/warehouse.html Presumably they couldn't help out, even though Homebush is only a suburb away. --Toby > --T > From tingox at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 14:10:09 2018 From: tingox at gmail.com (Torfinn Ingolfsen) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 21:10:09 +0200 Subject: Epson DECTalk IC In-Reply-To: References: <599D8FDC-F040-4E06-AD9A-A3BB8F6D6231@avanthar.com> <201807262012.w6QKCMUN12189836@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Perhaps this is of interest: http://tinyvga.com/avr-isa-vga (just found when googling, haven't tried it) On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > I'd love to find a project that interfaces the ISA and PC/104 bus to an > Arduino/rPi/USB/whatever... > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?39329-USB-to-ISA-Card-Emulator-System-or-the-ISA-XT-USB-Project > > https://www.reenigne.org/blog/isa-bus-sniffer-update/ > > =] > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > > > On Fri, Jul 27, 2018 at 12:00 PM Jason T via cctalk > wrote: > >> On Thu, Jul 26, 2018 at 3:12 PM Cameron Kaiser via cctalk >> wrote: >> > I've got a serial port DECTalk Express. Works great except for the >> battery >> > pack. No, you can't have it. >> >> That's the DTC03 and it's an acceptable substitute for those of us who >> can't find a DTC01 for under $300. I've wanted an 01 for years and >> passed up a number of chances as their value went higher and higher. >> >> For those who want to play with the DECtalk engine, there is the >> Windows software implementation which, last I tried, still runs in >> modern Windows versions. The software is "out there" and probably >> easy to find. When I last tried it is open to some doubt - might need >> to run it in a VM these days :) >> >> There is also the PC ISA card DECtalk, whose DTCxx number I forget >> (DTC07 maybe?) I have one "somewhere" but have never had the software >> for it. >> >> -j >> -- mvh Torfinn From couryhouse at aol.com Fri Jul 27 15:34:32 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 16:34:32 -0400 Subject: DRIVE 95 a third party add on disc drive for HP95 LX Palmtop for sale or trade NOS untested from SMECC MUSEUM Message-ID: <164dd73360d-c8a-a0cb@webjas-vab023.srv.aolmail.net> DRIVE 95 a third party add on disc drive for HP95 LX Palmtop? for sale or trade NOS untested from SMECC MUSEUM ? Found the? 2? that? ?I had? left over? from the? ?computer business I had in AZ ...? it is NOS? but? untested.? I will keep one? for the museums? collection? at? SMECC? ?the other will be? SOLD? or? TRADED? ?for the museum's? advantage. Will? to listing to? offers? before? I? consider? ?EBAY. ? See? ?www.smecc.org? for? ?areas for possible trades? we? ?save... it is not? just? computers. ? Money offers? considered? too. ? Drop us a not? off-list? with subject of? DRIVE? 95 OFFER in the? subject? line. ? Thanks? Ed Sharpe archivist? for SMECC From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Jul 27 14:54:41 2018 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:54:41 +0000 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: References: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: From: Toby Thain Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:31 AM > Or I may be confusing with other Australian evictions: > https://www.theage.com.au/technology/chips-are-down-for-computer-museum-20030520-gdgsdr.html > The Villawood location seems to be distinct from the warehouses that the > ACMS maintains? > http://www.acms.org.au/warehouse.html > Presumably they couldn't help out, even though Homebush is only a suburb > away. May I point out that this *IS* the ACMS, according to Mr. Geremin's signature in the original post? John GEREMIN, Honorary Treasurer, 0427 10 20 60. Australian Computer Museum Society Inc. PO Box 4005, Homebush, NSW, 2140. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Jul 27 17:08:20 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 18:08:20 -0400 Subject: WTB: Data I/O 351A-070, 071, 072 Socket Adapters Message-ID: All, I'm looking for any or all of the following Data I/O Socket Adapters: 351A-070 (8741, 8748, etc) 351A-071 (8751) 351A-072 (8755A) Thanks, Jonathan From toby at telegraphics.com.au Fri Jul 27 18:47:23 2018 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2018 19:47:23 -0400 Subject: Australian Computer Museum in trouble. In-Reply-To: References: <3e0406ca-fdca-fb58-66b3-0771afd4b770@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 2018-07-27 3:54 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > From: Toby Thain > Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 11:31 AM > >> Or I may be confusing with other Australian evictions: > >> https://www.theage.com.au/technology/chips-are-down-for-computer-museum-20030520-gdgsdr.html > >> The Villawood location seems to be distinct from the warehouses that the >> ACMS maintains? > >> http://www.acms.org.au/warehouse.html > >> Presumably they couldn't help out, even though Homebush is only a suburb >> away. > > May I point out that this *IS* the ACMS, according to Mr. Geremin's signature > in the original post? > > John GEREMIN, Honorary Treasurer, 0427 10 20 60. > Australian Computer Museum Society Inc. > PO Box 4005, Homebush, NSW, 2140. > Yeah, I didn't miss the connection. --T > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org > > http://www.LivingComputers.org/ > From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Jul 28 07:28:47 2018 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 08:28:47 -0400 Subject: All the Tech You Can Take Message-ID: <057301d4266e$88814be0$9983e3a0$@gmail.com> A recent visit to the Living Computers: Museum + Labs: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/travel/a-seattle-museums-tech-bonan za-from-classic-video-games-to-virtual-reality/2018/07/25/16cc1f8c-8a8e-11e8 -a345-a1bf7847b375_story.html ------ From gerardcjat at free.fr Sat Jul 28 07:20:18 2018 From: gerardcjat at free.fr (GerardCJAT) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 14:20:18 +0200 Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B Message-ID: Christian, I absolutly agree with David s post. Back in the ' '70 when I was maintaining 3 x HP 2116 B running 24/24 7/7 FOR around 10 YEARS, the ONLY memory related problem that I got was traced to a faulty transistor !! ( But I do not recall exactly, may be it was on a Driver Inhbit Card ) Anyway, from this only one case , not statisticaly signifiant ;-) the problem was a Tx, not a C.I. Wish you the same ... From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Jul 28 21:02:50 2018 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 19:02:50 -0700 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk > wrote: > > You need to move the motor to a new position in the RK05. The drive is > already prepared for all this. It is just the pulley, moving the motor and > the 220VAC jumper that is needed. I'm just working on my second RK05 drive now, to see if I can get it going by VCF West (I'm going to get crazy this year and rent a truck and show the 11/45, so some other people can enjoy it :-)) In any case, I can confirm that the power supply and transformers are jumper-able for 220VAC, and the motor is on a spring-tensioned swing arm, so it probably accommodates a different pulley just fine. HOWEVER, I noticed today that my particular motor has an ominous bright orange sticker on it that explicitly says "60 Hz ONLY". As far as I know, its an original motor. FWIW! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpupgCaQ2InqQrv1uruBJPZZGlDUTuwW/view cheers, --FritzM. From Mark at misty.com Sat Jul 28 21:36:03 2018 From: Mark at misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 22:36:03 -0400 Subject: WTB: Data I/O 351A-070, 071, 072 Socket Adapters In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0DA04FF9-DEF9-4872-8E19-E03BA5155E96@misty.com> Hi, > On Jul 27, 2018, at 18:08, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > All, > > I'm looking for any or all of the following Data I/O Socket Adapters: > > 351A-070 (8741, 8748, etc) > 351A-071 (8751) > 351A-072 (8755A) I suggest asking on the DATAIOeprom list on groups.io too. I?m looking for a Unipak-2b. Mark Thomas From useddec at gmail.com Sun Jul 29 01:46:52 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 01:46:52 -0500 Subject: national semi NS638 8K 22bit microVax II, etc Message-ID: I found four of these while sorting through non-DEC boards. I will try to go through more this week. I have a lot of memory including Q-bus, Unibus, and Vax. Please contact me off list if you are interested or have any questions. Shipping from 61853. Thanks, Paul From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Jul 28 09:41:50 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 10:41:50 -0400 Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend Message-ID: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> I am excited about this!! Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products, is speaking at Vintage Computer Festival XIII next weekend (August 4-5). The event as always is at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Tim created QDOS - Quick & Dirty Operating System -- which was the basis for Microsoft's MS-DOS. Tim rarely (if ever?) gives historical lectures, so this is a coup for the hobby. Everything you need to know about VCF West -- online ticketing, all the other speakers, exhibits, consignment, etc. -- is on the VCF web site at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From fritzm at slac.stanford.edu Sat Jul 28 20:58:42 2018 From: fritzm at slac.stanford.edu (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2018 18:58:42 -0700 Subject: RK05 spindle pulleys - trade 50Hz vs 60Hz? In-Reply-To: References: <09046339-1329-4988-A908-A19C24647DB7@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 26, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > You need to move the motor to a new position in the RK05. The drive is > already prepared for all this. It is just the pulley, moving the motor and > the 220VAC jumper that is needed. I'm just working on my second RK05 drive now, to see if I can get it going by VCF West (I'm going to get crazy this year and rent a truck and show the 11/45, so some other people can enjoy it :-)) In any case, I can confirm that the power supply and transformers are jumper-able for 220VAC, and the motor is on a spring-tensioned swing arm, so it probably accommodates a different pulley just fine. HOWEVER, I noticed today that my particular motor has an ominous bright orange sticker on it that explicitly says "60 Hz ONLY". As far as I know, its an original motor. FWIW! https://drive.google.com/file/d/1ZpupgCaQ2InqQrv1uruBJPZZGlDUTuwW/view cheers, --FritzM. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 06:21:10 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 11:21:10 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend In-Reply-To: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> References: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> Message-ID: This is awesome!? I agree, Evan, I don?t think he?s ever given a speech or lecture like this, and if he has, it either was very long ago or not advertised well :-). I?m looking forward to seeing the video especially given the work I did in making a Gazelle of my own.? Rich Get Outlook for iOS On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 3:38 AM -0400, "Evan Koblentz via cctalk" wrote: I am excited about this!! Tim Paterson, of Seattle Computer Products, is speaking at Vintage Computer Festival XIII next weekend (August 4-5). The event as always is at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Tim created QDOS - Quick & Dirty Operating System -- which was the basis for Microsoft's MS-DOS. Tim rarely (if ever?) gives historical lectures, so this is a coup for the hobby. Everything you need to know about VCF West -- online ticketing, all the other speakers, exhibits, consignment, etc. -- is on the VCF web site at http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-west/. ________________________________ Evan Koblentz, director Vintage Computer Federation a 501(c)3 educational non-profit evan at vcfed.org (646) 546-9999 www.vcfed.org facebook.com/vcfederation twitter.com/vcfederation From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 29 13:12:40 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 11:12:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend In-Reply-To: References: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> Message-ID: On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > This is awesome!? > I agree, Evan, I don?t think he?s ever given a speech or lecture > like this, and if he has, it either was very long ago or not advertised > well :-). Closest that I'm aware of was an article in Dr. Dobb's? 35 years ago, about design decisions. > I?m looking forward to seeing the video especially given the > work I did in making a Gazelle of my own.? Nice. From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Jul 29 13:16:40 2018 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 18:16:40 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend In-Reply-To: References: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> Message-ID: Yes, that?s the last article I remember as well. 1982 I think. Have it somewhere here. Get Outlook for iOS On Sun, Jul 29, 2018 at 2:12 PM -0400, "Fred Cisin via cctalk" wrote: On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: > This is awesome!? > I agree, Evan, I don?t think he?s ever given a speech or lecture > like this, and if he has, it either was very long ago or not advertised > well :-). Closest that I'm aware of was an article in Dr. Dobb's? 35 years ago, about design decisions. > I?m looking forward to seeing the video especially given the > work I did in making a Gazelle of my own.? Nice. From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 29 15:02:13 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 16:02:13 -0400 Subject: =?UTF-8?Q?Sorting_a=C2=A0_previously_undis?= =?UTF-8?Q?covered=C2=A0_=C2=A0briefcase_of=C2=A0_Jack?= =?UTF-8?Q?_Aldridge_the=C2=A0_=C2=A0_Electrodata?= =?UTF-8?Q?_/Burroughs=C2=A0_maint=C2=A0_engineer?= Message-ID: <164e7a25609-c89-11804@webjas-vae249.srv.aolmail.net> Sorting a? previously undiscovered? ?briefcase of? Jack Aldridge the? ? Electrodata /Burroughs? maint? engineer. All these? years turns? out there were? 2! And? I? thought? one of my assistants? was just moving? it? from one? shelf to another... ? ? found his? b-205? training? certificate!? Yea!? the? 50s! many may many other? ?goodies.... ? and? ?a small? group of? duplicate? ?pristine? B200 or? ?220? instruction? cards anyone? ?got? a? cpu in captivity? ? Back to? sorting... ? Ed# From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 29 16:02:49 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 14:02:49 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend In-Reply-To: References: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> Message-ID: >> I agree, Evan, I don???t think he???s ever given a speech or lecture >> like this, and if he has, it either was very long ago or not advertised >> well :-). > Closest that I'm aware of was an article in Dr. Dobb's? 35 years ago, > about design decisions. On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Richard Cini wrote: > Yes, that???s the last article I remember as well. 1982 I think. Have it somewhere here. > On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Richard Cini via cctalk wrote: >> This is awesome!?? "An Inside Look At MS-DOS : The Design Decisions Behind The Popular Operating System" BYTE June 1983 p230 8 pages Tim Paterson Seattle Computer Products 1114 Industry Dr. Seattle, WA 98186 I have half a dozen xerox copies of it. (authorized by McGraw-Hill 35 years ago.) I wonder whether Evan could get Tim Paterson to agree to VCF selling autographed copies? From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Jul 29 17:00:29 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 22:00:29 +0000 Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping Message-ID: All, pursuant to the modem discussion the last couple of weeks, i searched briefly and came up with: Global Village Teleport 56kbps fax/modem in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8). Cable connects to the Mac serial port (round DIN connector) For cost of shipping; I?ll add some bubble-wrap to the box to kee things from rattling inside and if you are concerned about the original box I?ll add another layer outside. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 29 18:14:36 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 19:14:36 -0400 Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <164e85278ce-c87-a235@webjas-vad210.srv.aolmail.net> is there also pc? connect? cable!? thx? Ed# ? ? In a message dated 7/29/2018 3:00:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? All, pursuant to the modem discussion the last couple of weeks, i searched briefly and came up with: Global Village Teleport 56kbps fax/modem in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8). Cable connects to the Mac serial port (round DIN connector) For cost of shipping; I?ll add some bubble-wrap to the box to kee things from rattling inside and if you are concerned about the original box I?ll add another layer outside. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 29 19:16:21 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:16:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: <164e85278ce-c87-a235@webjas-vad210.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164e85278ce-c87-a235@webjas-vad210.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > Global Village Teleport 56kbps fax/modem > in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8). > Cable connects to the Mac serial port (round DIN connector) On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > is there also pc? connect? cable!? He said Mac cable and Mac software. If you're feeling adventurous, . . . at the modem end of that cable, it might detach from the modem, exposing a DB25F Since the PC uses a DB25M, . . . although you might want to extend the distance at least a few inches. OTOH, if you want AT, not PC, then you would need a DE9F to DB25M cable. There might still be some of those on eBay. But, software is a whole other issue. <-- Sorry, couldn't resist --> From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Jul 29 19:31:02 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:31:02 -0400 Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164e898725e-c8b-fd00@webjas-vaa063.srv.aolmail.net> well? ?don't? care? about? software? but? it? may have? ad a? real? rs232? connector on the? modem? and the mac? ?cable? was an ad on? Kapish? Ed# ? In a message dated 7/29/2018 5:16:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? > Global Village Teleport 56kbps fax/modem > in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8). > Cable connects to the Mac serial port (round DIN connector) On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > is there also pc? connect? cable!? He said Mac cable and Mac software. If you're feeling adventurous, . . . at the modem end of that cable, it might detach from the modem, exposing a DB25F Since the PC uses a DB25M, . . . although you might want to extend the distance at least a few inches. OTOH, if you want AT, not PC, then you would need a DE9F to DB25M cable. There might still be some of those on eBay. But, software is a whole other issue. <-- Sorry, couldn't resist --> From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Jul 29 19:41:24 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 17:41:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: <164e898725e-c8b-fd00@webjas-vaa063.srv.aolmail.net> References: <164e898725e-c8b-fd00@webjas-vaa063.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: Yes, I capisce. Being "in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8)." implies that it's as sent by the vendor, who sold it configured for Mac, and is less likely to have provided BOTH. I'm just gently chiding you about availability of "standard" cables, which you probably have a cubic yard of. But, it IS true that it could have a Mac cable fused to it, with no other cabling feasible. On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > well?? ??don't?? care?? about?? software?? but?? it?? may have?? ad a?? real?? rs232?? connector on the?? modem?? and the mac?? ??cable?? was an ad on?? Kapish? Ed# > > > ?? > In a message dated 7/29/2018 5:16:32 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > ?? >> Global Village Teleport 56kbps fax/modem > >> in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8). >> Cable connects to the Mac serial port (round DIN connector) > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: >> is there also pc?? connect?? cable!? > > He said Mac cable and Mac software. > > If you're feeling adventurous, . . . > at the modem end of that cable, it might detach from the modem, exposing a DB25F > Since the PC uses a DB25M, . . . > although you might want to extend the distance at least a few inches. > OTOH, if you want AT, not PC, then you would need a DE9F to DB25M cable. > There might still be some of those on eBay. > > But, software is a whole other issue. > > > <-- Sorry, couldn't resist --> From cctalk at snarc.net Sun Jul 29 19:50:58 2018 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 20:50:58 -0400 Subject: Tim Paterson / QDOS lecture @ VCF West next weekend In-Reply-To: References: <8e7f3db3-a48e-b751-a347-8b1f7b0fcc6c@snarc.net> Message-ID: > I wonder whether Evan could get Tim Paterson to agree to VCF selling > autographed copies? Sorry, we would have had to plan that well in advance. Presumably he'll be glad to autograph whatever people bring with them. From dave at 661.org Sun Jul 29 20:05:54 2018 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 01:05:54 +0000 (UTC) Subject: SCO Skunkware? In-Reply-To: <00fa01d4258b$263beb90$72b3c2b0$@attfield.co.uk> References: <00fa01d4258b$263beb90$72b3c2b0$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, james via cctech wrote: > On 7/25/18 6:53 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? > I have Skunkware 7 (1997) and Skunkware 98 (1998) if they will do. What is > your desire? I'm trying to track down anything on Deth Specula. At least one of their songs was present on a Skunkware CD in the form of an mp2 file: "I Wanna Be Updated". -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From david at thecoolbears.org Sun Jul 29 21:30:22 2018 From: david at thecoolbears.org (David Coolbear) Date: Sun, 29 Jul 2018 19:30:22 -0700 Subject: Microware OS-9 68000 SPF Message-ID: Anyone familiar with the SPF file manager on Microware OS-9? I have an MVME162 processor and for no good reason, other than an intellectual exercise, I've decided to try and get OS-9 68000 running on it. Mostly this has been a pretty simple exercise, since the necessary ROM images are on the Internet, however, the one thing that I can't seem to make work is SLIP (or PPP for that matter). I have the MVME board connected via an RS232 connection to a Raspberry PI. PPP doesn't work at all but SLIP works partially. I can PING from the PI to the MVME and from the MVME to the PI. I can send TCP traffic in both directions. I can send UDP traffic in both directions. When I try to start a telnet session from the PI to the MVME, it seems like the session is established: Trying 192.168.2.2... Connected to 192.168.2.2. Escape character is '^]'. But I never see the login prompt on the PI. Pretty much the same thing applies to other telnet clients including Windows, NetBSD VAX and 211BSD on my PDP-11. Furthermore, I see that the connection handler in OS-9, telnetdc, is started and also login is started 20 0 0.0 128 48.00k 0 e 0.03 0:00 telnetdc >>pks01 40 0 0.0 128 52.00k 0 s 0.12 25:42 telnetd <>>>nil but I never get a login prompt at the PI. Any suggestions? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Jul 30 10:33:28 2018 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:33:28 +0200 (CEST) Subject: Troubleshooting HP 2116B In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 28 Jul 2018, GerardCJAT wrote: > Christian, > I absolutly agree with David s post. > Back in the ' '70 when I was maintaining 3 x HP 2116 B running 24/24 7/7 > FOR around 10 YEARS, the ONLY memory related problem that I got was > traced to a faulty transistor !! Then I have a new fault ;-) After swapping the transistors with those for bit 16 (parity, not used in this machine), the fault was still there. Swapping the IC did not help. Finally, I found it: one of the two 1.65k resistors going to the outputs was bad (open). These are the collector resistors for the differential amplifier. So if I had found that resistor earlier the board would look a bit nicer than now; it is not easy at all to desolder those little 8 pin metal cans. There was a short electrolytic on one inhibit driver card, but that was fixed several days ago. This fault was obvious: the PSU was shutting off with the card in its slot. Now to the flakey bit in the other memory half. Perhaps the corresponding resistor on the other card starts to go bad? Christian From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Jul 30 10:36:41 2018 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 15:36:41 +0000 Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: References: <164e898725e-c8b-fd00@webjas-vaa063.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: > On Jul 29, 2018, at 7:41 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > Yes, I capisce. > > Being "in original box (opened and inspected, not tested), includes power supply and software on CD (for Mac OS 8)." implies that it's as sent by the vendor, who sold it configured for Mac, and is less likely to have provided BOTH. > I'm just gently chiding you about availability of "standard" cables, which you probably have a cubic yard of. > But, it IS true that it could have a Mac cable fused to it, with no other cabling feasible. > > > > On Sun, 29 Jul 2018, Ed Sharpe wrote: > >> well don't care about software but it may have ad a real rs232 connector on the modem and the mac cable was an ad on Kapish? Ed# ?don?t know whether to top-post or not :-) . Sorry for slow reply, was off-line (and going to be doing that a lot the next few days). The communications cable from the modem doesn?t detach (well, reversibly) at the modem end. The whole package is pretty clearly Mac-centric, so that doesn?t surprise me. Basically Fred diagnosed the situation accurately. The only thing I?ll add is that I was not the original owner, and there may be missing elements from the package (registration card, etc.) that I don?t know to look for. The hardware looks complete (from a compact Mac owner?s perspective) - just add telco connections and you are ready to communicate at a blazing 56k bits/s. :-) In a week or so I?ll hunt for other modems, but it?s not unlikely they will fall into the same category. Ed, I?ll keep you in mind and will let you know if I find anything with DE-25 or DB-9 on the modem. - Mark From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 12:27:36 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:27:36 +0100 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? Message-ID: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> Hi folks, A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 with 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has 11 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different cards in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. Pics: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-1.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-2.jpg http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-3.jpg My duckduckgo-fu has let me down. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From systems.glitch at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 12:30:53 2018 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 13:30:53 -0400 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> References: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> Message-ID: 403 Forbidden. Thanks, Jonathan On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 1:27 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following > boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 with > 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has 11 > 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different cards > in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. > > Pics: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30.jpg < > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30.jpg> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-1.jpg < > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-1.jpg> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-2.jpg < > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-2.jpg> > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-3.jpg < > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-3.jpg> > > My duckduckgo-fu has let me down. > > Cheers! > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs > w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk > > > > From mike.niswonger at cox.net Mon Jul 30 14:37:42 2018 From: mike.niswonger at cox.net (Mike Niswonger) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:37:42 -0500 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Don't know the system, but the logo is "Varian Associates"... ??? -- Mike Niswonger On 07/30/2018 12:27 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 with 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has 11 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different cards in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. > > Pics: > > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-1.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-2.jpg > http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/tynemouthsw_2018-Jul-30-3.jpg > > My duckduckgo-fu has let me down. > > Cheers! > From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Jul 30 16:44:07 2018 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 14:44:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: For anybody who will be arriving at VCF the night before: Message-ID: ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:00:50 +0000 From: "[utf-8] Computer History Museum" Subject: =?utf-8?Q?Up=20Next=20=E2=94=82General=20Magic=20Film=20Screening=20&=20Pane l=20Discussion=2C=208=2F3?= Film Screening?????? and Panel Discussion with Marc Porat, Andy Hertzfeld, Megan Smith, and Michael Stern https://www.facebook.com/computerhistory/ https://twitter.com/computerhistory https://www.instagram.com/computerhistory/ http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/ ** Friday Nights @CHM ------------------------------------------------------------ ** General Magic ------------------------------------------------------------ ** Film Screening and Panel Discussion with Marc Porat, Andy Hertzfeld, Megan Smith & Michael Stern ------------------------------------------------------------ >From the smartphones that sit in our pockets to an array of technologies we take for granted today, many of the ideas that now dominate the tech industry and our day-to-day lives were born in 1989 at a Silicon Valley startup most of us have never heard of General Magic. Extraordinary creativity, remarkable breakthroughs, fierce competition, hubris and heartbreaking betrayal dominated behind the scenes of General Magic. While some never recovered from the failure that accompanied its downfall and bankruptcy, others went on to soar. The lessons learned at General Magic were instrumental in the creation of the iPod, iPhone, Android, eBay, even in the corridors of President Obama???s White House. And although General Magic died, the concepts and the people who worked there went on to change how the world connects today. Described by Forbes as ???The most important dead company in Silicon Valley??? and combining rare archive footage with contemporary stories of the General Magicians today, this documentary tracks the progress of anytime, anywhere communication from a thing of sci-fi fiction to our modern day reality. Join us for a special screening of this fascinating documentary followed by a panel discussion with former "magicians" Marc Porat, Andy Hertzfeld, Michael Stern, and Megan Smith. Exhibits are free to all event attendees. Join us for Friday Nights @CHM before and after the program! Enjoy food and drinks from Catered Too and extended exhibit hours from 5 to 9 p.m. Learn More (http://www.computerhistory.org/events/upcoming/#general-magic) or Register Now (http://connect.computerhistory.org/pages/events/2018-08-general-magic) ** When Friday, August 3, 2018 5 p.m. Friday Nights @CHM Begins 6:30 p.m. Program Check-in 7 p.m. Screening 8:30 p.m. Panel Discussion 9 p.m. Program & Friday Nights @CHM End Where Computer History Museum (http://www.computerhistory.org/directions/) Speakers Andy Hertzfeld Marc Porat Megan Smith Michael Stern Register Now (http://connect.computerhistory.org/pages/events/2018-08-general-magic) ------------------------------------------------------------ https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=uTdyb-RWNKo Watch the General Magic trailer! ============================================================ ** CHM (http://www.computerhistory.org/) ** CALENDAR (http://www.computerhistory.org/events/upcoming/) ** VISIT (http://www.computerhistory.org/planvisit/) ** MEMBERSHIP (http://www.computerhistory.org/membership/) ** SUBSCRIBE (https://connect.computerhistory.org/) Want to change how you receive these emails? You can ** update your preferences (https://computerhistory.us13.list-manage.com/profile?u=20bc634cf3d929f8435a77170&id=8b7194191b&e=363406dbbb) or ** unsubscribe from this list (https://computerhistory.us13.list-manage.com/unsubscribe?u=20bc634cf3d929f8435a77170&id=8b7194191b&e=363406dbbb&c=6911c766b1) From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 17:50:00 2018 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 17:50:00 -0500 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> References: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 07/30/2018 12:27 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following > boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 > with 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has > 11 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different > cards in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. Those 11 slots are 100 pins, surely - the same number as the CPU board has. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 18:13:15 2018 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 00:13:15 +0100 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: References: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> Message-ID: <94788F6A-B68D-489D-9884-B150B7839EFF@gmail.com> > On 30 Jul 2018, at 23:50, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > On 07/30/2018 12:27 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> Hi folks, >> A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following >> boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 >> with 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has >> 11 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different >> cards in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. > > Those 11 slots are 100 pins, surely - the same number as the CPU board has. Hehehehe, I looked at the silkscreen on the lower right pin and read ?66? not ?99? XD. I?ve been up since 6am which is clearly having an effect. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaurs f: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From couryhouse at aol.com Mon Jul 30 19:15:56 2018 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 20:15:56 -0400 Subject: Global Village 56k modem for shipping In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <164edb0fcb3-c8a-8c3b@webjas-vac117.srv.aolmail.net> Thanks? Mark!? Appreciate it!? Ed# ? In a message dated 7/30/2018 8:36:52 AM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: ? In a week or so I?ll hunt for other modems, but it?s not unlikely they will fall into the same category. Ed, I?ll keep you in mind and will let you know if I find anything with DE-25 or DB-9 on the modem. - Mark From radioengr at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 20:45:02 2018 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 18:45:02 -0700 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> References: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> Message-ID: <23ada35e-1811-6089-812b-eb2d2f0ac40c@gmail.com> That logo is Varian and Associates. http://www.logobook.com/logo/varian-and-associates/ Rob. On 7/30/2018 10:27 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Hi folks, > > A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 with 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has 11 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different cards in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. > From useddec at gmail.com Mon Jul 30 23:43:27 2018 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 23:43:27 -0500 Subject: DEC memory and CPUs Message-ID: More DEC items available. If you have any interest or questions please contact me off list. L4000 KA670 4000/300 I might need one to fill a box. 3 or so boxes also. L4001-Bx X= chip manufacturer MS670 L4001-Cx L4004-Cx MS690 L4004-DF M7606 KA630 Microvax II M7607 MS630-A 1MG M7608 MS630-B 2MG M7620 MVAX CPU M7621 MS650-A 8MB M7622 MS650-B 16MB M8637-Cx 2MG M8637-Ex 2MG I hope there aren't too many typos in here and the info is correct. Thanks, Paul From geremin at iprimus.com.au Mon Jul 30 20:59:15 2018 From: geremin at iprimus.com.au (John GEREMIN) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 11:59:15 +1000 Subject: Australian Computer Museum - HELP Message-ID: <4b2bb7d3-2110-9b57-417e-ee14e4a97b93@iprimus.com.au> The building housing the Australian Computer Museum is scheduled to be demolished in 2 weeks. Anyone in Sydney (or nearby) is invited to HELP preserve the collection by providing storage (for doco or big or small items) until we get a proper home. Please email INFO at ACMS.ORG.AU for more details, or call John 0427 10 20 60 in Australia. -- John GEREMIN, Honorary Treasurer, 0427 10 20 60. Australian Computer Museum Society Inc. PO Box 4005, Homebush, NSW, 2140. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From james at attfield.co.uk Mon Jul 30 06:29:20 2018 From: james at attfield.co.uk (james) Date: Mon, 30 Jul 2018 12:29:20 +0100 Subject: SCO Skunkware? In-Reply-To: References: <00fa01d4258b$263beb90$72b3c2b0$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <013801d427f8$950bfaf0$bf23f0d0$@attfield.co.uk> OK, I have uploaded what I have to Bitsavers, best of luck with your search. I'm sure you have this link but just in case; http://deth.com/iuma-mbone/ -----Original Message----- From: David Griffith [mailto:dave at 661.org] Sent: 30 July 2018 02:06 To: james; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: RE: SCO Skunkware? On Fri, 27 Jul 2018, james via cctech wrote: > On 7/25/18 6:53 PM, David Griffith via cctalk wrote: >> >> Does anyone have any Skunkware ISOs from around 1995 to 1998? > I have Skunkware 7 (1997) and Skunkware 98 (1998) if they will do. > What is your desire? I'm trying to track down anything on Deth Specula. At least one of their songs was present on a Skunkware CD in the form of an mp2 file: "I Wanna Be Updated". -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From bobsmithofd at gmail.com Tue Jul 31 11:20:59 2018 From: bobsmithofd at gmail.com (Bob Smith) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:20:59 -0400 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? In-Reply-To: <23ada35e-1811-6089-812b-eb2d2f0ac40c@gmail.com> References: <11249180-2A41-4636-BFC7-CEB35D2FE659@gmail.com> <23ada35e-1811-6089-812b-eb2d2f0ac40c@gmail.com> Message-ID: Varian made a bunch of specialized systems/Devices used in Lab environments. On Mon, Jul 30, 2018 at 9:45 PM, Rob Doyle via cctalk wrote: > That logo is Varian and Associates. > > http://www.logobook.com/logo/varian-and-associates/ > > Rob. > > > On 7/30/2018 10:27 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> >> Hi folks, >> >> A friend of mine in the UK is looking for any info on the following >> boards. The CPU board is marked ?VA 03-907023-00? and features a Z80 with >> 16K RAM and an 18.432MHz crystal. The backplane is also VA and has 11 >> 132-pin slots that aren?t all identical implying usage for different cards >> in those locations. Voltages are +5/-5/+12V. >> > > From w9gb at icloud.com Tue Jul 31 12:41:21 2018 From: w9gb at icloud.com (Gregory Beat) Date: Tue, 31 Jul 2018 12:41:21 -0500 Subject: Unknown Z80 CPU board and backplane ID anyone? Message-ID: <88F037DC-197E-4EB3-A925-8EEC4C5ED52C@icloud.com> Agree about Varian trademark. In 1937 the Varian brothers developed the Klystron tube. In 1965 Eitel-McCullough (EIMAC) merged with Varian Associates, but in 1995 the EIMAC division was ?spun off? (now part of CPI). In 1999, the company was reorganized into three distinct businesses: Varian Medical Systems Inc., Varian Semiconductor Equipment Associates Inc., and Varian, Inc. == The Card Edge connectors on motherboard are Sullins Connector Solutions, Inc. http://sullinscorp.com/catalog/ MPS-0125-50-DW-5H Edge Card Catalog http://www.sullinscorp.com/pdfs/edgcards-catalog.pdf Card Edge Connector, 100 Contact(s), 2 Row(s), Straight, 0.125 inch Pitch, .025? Square Wire Wrap - .610? Insulator Height, Blue Insulator, Raised with .125? Clearance Holes, .190? Contact Length for .025? Square. === For reference purposes, S-100 motherboards use Sullins EBA50DCSD . https://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/sullins-connector-solutions/EBA50DCSD/S3288-ND/927240 Greg chicago Sent from iPad Air