From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Fri Dec 1 00:20:51 2017 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Thu, 30 Nov 2017 23:20:51 -0700 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: G'day fellow Nova'holics - Next year the Nova computer will be 50 years old, and we am organizing a celebration of this important part of minicomputer history. Nova hardware and software designers, users and admirers can get initial information at: http://www.Nova-At-50.org The celebration of a half-century will come around only once, so check it out and sign up soon... Bruce ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 06:28:08 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 13:28:08 +0100 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore Message-ID: There is a seller "potomacestore" that lists a number of items in various condition. A HP9866A. very nice if you have the HP9830A but no printer! https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680 A weird Tektronix 8 inch drive thing. The drive resembles the Memorex 651 drives, but could something else. But what is it? The photos are not very good. https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523 A decent looking Tektronix 4112 terminal: https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012 And some other HP, tektronix stuff. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 07:44:52 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 08:44:52 -0500 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: <01QM40Y1Z16U002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QM40Y1Z16U002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Off the cuff, I'd probably stand something else up and have it relay mail to the VAX (I suspect you've already got machines available for this purpose, ping me off-list if not). Have the VAX only accept connections from whatever's doing the relaying. If you can't get VMS or the smtpd to restrict incoming connections, add a transparent hardware firewall in between. This is what I typically do when something old and probably insecure has to be connected to the Internet -- proxy, relay, or otherwise hide the actual server behind something modern. Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:28 PM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > I have a microvax set up with VMS 5, running MULTINET (and decnet > > locally). The server has a FQDN and after a while being exposed to the > > WWW someone out there started using the server as an SMTP relay. I can > > disable and clear the queue, but I'd like to block entirely this from > > happening in the first place. I'd like to learn more about how this > > happens in VMS. > > > > Anyone have had this same problem before? I realize back when VMS 5 was > > current it was not so much of an issue, but today it is. I am working > on a > > solution. I can envision a few ways including blocking the smtp relay > port > > from the firewall, but if possible I'd like to set up a VMS Multinet > > solution as a learning exercise. > > > > I had this problem about 25 years ago. I suspect lots of people did. > > In the VMS world, networking stacks are separately packaged from the base > operating system and it is possible to install one or more of DECnet, > TCP/IP, > X25 and various other networking products and have them all running > simultaneously. > > VMS doesn't know or care about SMTP, the issue here is with Multinet which > seems to be what was installed to provide TCP/IP networking on your > machine. > Multinet includes a basic SMTP server which can be used to move mail > between > VMS MAIL and the internet. Very old versions of Multinet came with SMTP > relaying enabled because this is what the standards required at the time. > Later versions came with easy ways to disable SMTP relaying. Later still > versions shipped with SMTP relaying disabled out of the box when spammers > targetting open relays became a serious problem. More recently still, > Multinet comes with pretty much all of the TCP/IP servers it provides > disabled > and requires the installer to enable the services they want, leaving less > opportunity for surprises when servers are running that nobody knew > existed, > except the bad guys targetting them. > > The Multinet SMTP server is pretty basic and people who are serious about > doing SMTP on VMS typically disable it and install a proper mailserver like > PMDF. That's my excuse for not knowing how to disable SMTP relaying in > Multinet. That and because it probably varies for different versions of > Multinet and you haven't said what version of Multinet you have. I used to > be one of the people supporting Multinet in this part of the world and I > seem to have inherited a stack of Multinet documentation for different old > versions so if I knew what version, I could probably look it up. I think > the > documentation for the most recent couple of Multinet versions is on the > Multinet website: > > http://www.process.com/psc/service-support/multinet-support/ > > Try the Adminstrator's guide or Adminstrator's reference. > > I do however know how to disable the SMTP server in Multinet completely: > > $ MULTINET CONFIGURE /SERVERS > SERVER-CONFIG> DISABLE SMTP > SERVER-CONFIG> RESTART > Configuration modified, do you want to save it first ? [YES] > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan > From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 1 07:51:46 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 23:51:46 +1000 Subject: PTAP2DXF - make paper tapes without a punch Message-ID: If you have a paper tape reader and no punch, you can now make real working paper tapes using a normal home stencil-cutting machine. I've written a small command line utility that can take a .PTAP (or any other binary or textfile) and generate output that these machines will cut. that your reader will read. It can easily make repair pieces for existing old broken tapes from any byte offset. In addition it can make banner tapes, 5-level Baudot RTTY tape, your own custom n-level paper tape or cut tapes from other materials such as plastic. Even if you don't need it to make or repair tapes, it can be used to visualise a paper tape through the console output it produces. I'd never claim it's any sort of replacement for a real punch, and it's a whole lot slower. But, it does work :) A simple example to make a tape of the characters ABCDEF with 1/2 inch of sprocket leader and 1/2 inch of trailer: C:\> ptap2dxf --text="ABCDEF" --leader=5 --trailer=5 --output=ABCDEF.dxf +---------+ | . | | . | | . | | . | | . | | O . O| | O . O | | O . OO| | O .O | | O .O O| | O .OO | | . | | . | | . | | . | | . | +---------+ Joiner 0000: data byte 00000000 absolute position 00000011 The resulting ABCDEF.dxf file can be viewed in a DXF viewer such as Inkscape and directly loaded into the paper/vinyl cutter for producing the actual working tape. Another example: say you need a repair piece for an absolute loader, starting at byte 57 for 12 bytes. (A repair piece has removeable side tabs for handling as a self-adhesive vinyl joiner): C:\> ptap2dxf DEC-11-L2PC-PO.ptap --range=57,12 --joiner --ascii --control +---------+ | O .O O| JOINER % | . O | JOINER | . | JOINER | O . O| JOINER ! | . OO| JOINER |OOOO .OOO| JOINER | O. O| JOINER | O O.O | JOINER , | . | JOINER |O .O | JOINER | OO . OO| JOINER c | . O| JOINER +---------+ The output for machine cutting will be in DEC-11-L2PC-PO.dxf For larger tapes, the output can be chunked into sections which can be cut individually. There are other options to invert, mirror, reposition the sprocket feed and so on. If you think you may find it useful, it's fully open source and available at https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It will run on Windows (pre-built exe provided) and Linux and Mac (follow building instructions). The 26-page illustrated User Manual PDF is at https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf/blob/master/Documentation/PTAP2DXF_User_Manual_v1.0.pdf Steve. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 09:12:05 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:12:05 -0500 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? Message-ID: https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this before. From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Fri Dec 1 12:16:57 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 18:16:57 +0000 Subject: Old DEC PROM Images Message-ID: I am trying to bring some of my old PDP-11's back to life. Does anyone have or know of a source for PROM Images? I need the images for the M8189 (11/23+) and would also love to get the images for my DECTalk. bill From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 13:18:06 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 19:18:06 +0000 Subject: TRS80 Model 1 video RAM (2102A) Message-ID: <5581E392-C320-4160-BF93-41D700EF5196@gmail.com> Hi folks, After sorting out the Model 4P (thanks to all who provided hints!) and scrubbing it up so it almost looks new again I turned attention to my Model 1 Level II which had been dead for at least the same amount of time as the Model 4. There?s some excellent troubleshooting tips for these machines out there and I quickly discovered a bad RAM chip, swap that for a NOS one and we?d be back in business if the video RAM wasn?t failing. One of the 4 2102A chips is failing (MEM SIZE becomes OEO SIZE) and I?d like to double check this before I stump up the ukp4 required for a pair of NOS ones, can anyone think of a machine from back then that also used 2102A or 2102LPFC or NTE2102 video RAM? Cheers! ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Dec 1 17:08:38 2017 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 17:08:38 -0600 Subject: test Message-ID: <000b01d36af9$52b1a090$f814e1b0$@classiccmp.org> Test - no reply needed. From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 07:54:16 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 23:54:16 +1000 Subject: looking for a book Advance Graphics BASIC programing (type-in listings) Message-ID: <9939c97b-ad75-e6a7-1996-5994bb8f5216@gmail.com> I am looking for a book I remember borrowing from the local library about late 1980, early 1990 this what remember: * BASIC programing (type-in listings) * Advance Graphics * Polygon graphics * IBM * "that's all folks" image on front/back cover * BSAVE/BLOAD (I think) * two or three flight sims ( wireframe, filled polygons, AI ), they looked like Microsoft Flight Simulator 1.0 looking back * wait press? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 17:38:49 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 15:38:49 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/01/2017 07:12 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 > > EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks > like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is > some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the > cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this > before. > Probably a driver board for core memory. --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 1 18:03:15 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:03:15 +1000 Subject: PTAP2DXF - make paper tapes without a punch Message-ID: (posted this just as the list went down earlier, apologies if it appears twice) If you have a paper tape reader and no punch, you can now make real working paper tapes using a normal home stencil-cutting machine. I've written a small command line utility that can take a .PTAP (or any other binary or textfile) and generate output that these machines will cut. that your reader will read. It can easily make repair pieces for existing old broken tapes from any byte offset. In addition it can make banner tapes, 5-level Baudot RTTY tape, your own custom n-level paper tape or cut tapes from other materials such as plastic. Even if you don't need it to make or repair tapes, it can be used to visualise a paper tape through the console output it produces. I'd never claim it's any sort of replacement for a real punch, and it's a whole lot slower. But, it does work :) A simple example to make a tape of the characters ABCDEF with 1/2 inch of sprocket leader and 1/2 inch of trailer: C:\> ptap2dxf --text="ABCDEF" --leader=5 --trailer=5 --output=ABCDEF.dxf +---------+ | . | | . | | . | | . | | . | | O . O| | O . O | | O . OO| | O .O | | O .O O| | O .OO | | . | | . | | . | | . | | . | +---------+ Joiner 0000: data byte 00000000 absolute position 00000011 The resulting ABCDEF.dxf file can be viewed in a DXF viewer such as Inkscape and directly loaded into the paper/vinyl cutter for producing the actual working tape. Another example: say you need a repair piece for an absolute loader, starting at byte 57 for 12 bytes. (A repair piece has removeable side tabs for handling as a self-adhesive vinyl joiner): C:\> ptap2dxf DEC-11-L2PC-PO.ptap --range=57,12 --joiner --ascii --control +---------+ | O .O O| JOINER % | . O | JOINER | . | JOINER | O . O| JOINER ! | . OO| JOINER |OOOO .OOO| JOINER | O. O| JOINER | O O.O | JOINER , | . | JOINER |O .O | JOINER | OO . OO| JOINER c | . O| JOINER +---------+ The output for machine cutting will be in DEC-11-L2PC-PO.dxf For larger tapes, the output can be chunked into sections which can be cut individually. There are other options to invert, mirror, reposition the sprocket feed and so on. If you think you may find it useful, it's fully open source and available at https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It will run on Windows (pre-built exe provided) and Linux and Mac (follow building instructions). The 26-page illustrated User Manual PDF is at https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf/blob/master/Documentation/PTAP2DXF_User_Manual_v1.0.pdf Steve. From schlae at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 18:05:16 2017 From: schlae at gmail.com (Eric Schlaepfer) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 16:05:16 -0800 Subject: PTAP2DXF - make paper tapes without a punch In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: This is awesome! I've had an idea on the back burner that would require some fairly custom plastic punched tape. I was thinking of using a laser engraver but this would be a lot better -- no scorched edges. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 5:51 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > If you have a paper tape reader and no punch, you can now make real > working paper tapes using a normal home stencil-cutting machine. > I've written a small command line utility that can take a .PTAP (or any > other binary or textfile) and generate output that these > machines will cut. that your reader will read. > > It can easily make repair pieces for existing old broken tapes from any > byte offset. In addition it can make banner tapes, 5-level > Baudot RTTY tape, your own custom n-level paper tape or cut tapes from > other materials such as plastic. > Even if you don't need it to make or repair tapes, it can be used to > visualise a paper tape through the console output it produces. > > I'd never claim it's any sort of replacement for a real punch, and it's a > whole lot slower. But, it does work :) > > A simple example to make a tape of the characters ABCDEF with 1/2 inch of > sprocket leader and 1/2 inch of trailer: > > C:\> ptap2dxf --text="ABCDEF" --leader=5 --trailer=5 --output=ABCDEF.dxf > +---------+ > | . | > | . | > | . | > | . | > | . | > | O . O| > | O . O | > | O . OO| > | O .O | > | O .O O| > | O .OO | > | . | > | . | > | . | > | . | > | . | > +---------+ > Joiner 0000: data byte 00000000 absolute position 00000011 > > The resulting ABCDEF.dxf file can be viewed in a DXF viewer such as > Inkscape and directly loaded into the paper/vinyl cutter for producing > the actual working tape. > > > Another example: say you need a repair piece for an absolute loader, > starting at byte 57 for 12 bytes. (A repair piece has removeable side > tabs for handling as a self-adhesive vinyl joiner): > > C:\> ptap2dxf DEC-11-L2PC-PO.ptap --range=57,12 --joiner --ascii --control > +---------+ > | O .O O| JOINER % > | . O | JOINER > | . | JOINER > | O . O| JOINER ! > | . OO| JOINER > |OOOO .OOO| JOINER > | O. O| JOINER > | O O.O | JOINER , > | . | JOINER > |O .O | JOINER > | OO . OO| JOINER c > | . O| JOINER > +---------+ > > The output for machine cutting will be in DEC-11-L2PC-PO.dxf > For larger tapes, the output can be chunked into sections which can be cut > individually. There are other options to invert, mirror, reposition > the sprocket feed and so on. > > If you think you may find it useful, it's fully open source and available > at https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf > It will run on Windows (pre-built exe provided) and Linux and Mac (follow > building instructions). > The 26-page illustrated User Manual PDF is at https://github.com/1944GPW/ > ptap2dxf/blob/master/Documentation/PTAP2DXF_User_Manual_v1.0.pdf > > Steve. > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 18:54:29 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 22:54:29 -0200 Subject: TRS80 Model 1 video RAM (2102A) In-Reply-To: <5581E392-C320-4160-BF93-41D700EF5196@gmail.com> References: <5581E392-C320-4160-BF93-41D700EF5196@gmail.com> Message-ID: Same happened to mine http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com.br/2017/03/restauro-do-trs-80-model-1.html (portuguese, but google translator is your friend :) ) 2017-12-01 17:18 GMT-02:00 Adrian Graham via cctalk : > Hi folks, > > After sorting out the Model 4P (thanks to all who provided hints!) and > scrubbing it up so it almost looks new again I turned attention to my Model > 1 Level II which had been dead for at least the same amount of time as the > Model 4. There?s some excellent troubleshooting tips for these machines out > there and I quickly discovered a bad RAM chip, swap that for a NOS one and > we?d be back in business if the video RAM wasn?t failing. > > One of the 4 2102A chips is failing (MEM SIZE becomes OEO SIZE) and I?d > like to double check this before I stump up the ukp4 required for a pair of > NOS ones, can anyone think of a machine from back then that also used 2102A > or 2102LPFC or NTE2102 video RAM? > > Cheers! > > ? > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 19:39:14 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 20:39:14 -0500 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: <01QM40Y1Z16U002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > > > > The Multinet SMTP server is pretty basic and people who are serious about > > doing SMTP on VMS typically disable it and install a proper mailserver like > > PMDF. That's my excuse for not knowing how to disable SMTP relaying in > > Multinet. That and because it probably varies for different versions of > > Multinet and you haven't said what version of Multinet you have. I used to > > be one of the people supporting Multinet in this part of the world and I > > seem to have inherited a stack of Multinet documentation for different old > > versions so if I knew what version, I could probably look it up. I think > > the > > documentation for the most recent couple of Multinet versions is on the > > Multinet website: > > > > http://www.process.com/psc/service-support/multinet-support/ > > > > Try the Adminstrator's guide or Adminstrator's reference. > > > > I do however know how to disable the SMTP server in Multinet completely: > > > > $ MULTINET CONFIGURE /SERVERS > > SERVER-CONFIG> DISABLE SMTP > > SERVER-CONFIG> RESTART > > Configuration modified, do you want to save it first ? [YES] > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan > > Peter, Thanks I think this is what I need, just disable smtp within MULTINET. As I said in my OP I prefer a VMS or MULTINET solution free of modern hardware if possible, now that I know what is possible. I was curious to learn what others did back in the day. I have a script I run to clear the queue, but that's a pain and it lets some relaying through. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 1 19:48:52 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 17:48:52 -0800 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> On 11/30/2017 10:20 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > G'day fellow Nova'holics - > > > Next year the Nova computer will be 50 years old, and we am organizing a > celebration of this important part of minicomputer history.? Nova > hardware and software designers, users and admirers can get initial > information at: > > ? http://www.Nova-At-50.org > > The celebration of a half-century will come around only once, so check > it out and sign up soon... Hey Bruce, Did you invite Ed de Castro? He's still around. Cheers, Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Dec 1 22:05:48 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 20:05:48 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <08A7EBB0-C155-47FA-80DA-197A17E0F1F3@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-01, at 7:12 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 > > EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks > like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is > some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the > cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this > before. That's very funny. It looks to be a core rope memory that hasn't been programmed. Other organisations might be possible, but it looks like a pulse-transformer type of core-rope, where the cores are just for ordinary induction, not switching/memory cores. - the matrix of black what-look-to-be diodes would be data-wire isolation diodes - the little brown 'stools' are wire routing posts - you can see the mulit-turn sense windings (bluish) already present on the cores - above the cores are the sense amplifiers or 1st stage thereof - there is one wire through all the cores, perhaps a test wire for core and sense amp response Each data-wire would start at one of the solder pins in the pin matrix on the left, weave through the cores to encode the data, turn back 180, then 90 degrees around one of the stools to drop down and terminate at the solder pin by an isolation diode. There would be another board for decoding the address to 1-of-x and 1-of-y. I didn't count precisely but it looks like it would be 256 words of 20 bits. That might be a date code of 6847 on a cap (or is it 6B47?), so perhaps earlier than the listing-stated 1981. Actually, it kind of hints at it in the description: "With out Firmware ROM wire (empty slots)" From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 22:32:31 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 20:32:31 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:12 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 > > EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks > like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is > some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the > cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this > before. > The last picture has "???-5". Some googling takes us to https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%97%D0%A3 "DZU is a factory in Stara Zagora , a major producer of magnetic disk storage devices (hard drives and floppy disks) during the rise of computer production in Bulgaria in the 1970s and 1980s, century. Today it is part of VIDEOTON Holding ZRt., Hungary [1] ." The article says it was a disk drive factory, but maybe... -- Charles From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 00:21:41 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:21:41 -0600 Subject: Altair Peripheral Emulator In-Reply-To: References: <20171129210435.GA13693@allie.home.misty.com> <50535CCF801FC1A0.F983CB1D-503C-49A7-8D27-159FF6FD068A@mail.outlook.com> <7e999ce5-8dda-169e-00d4-fa3d9d954fb3@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2017 17:15, "Toby Thain via cctalk" wrote: > On 11/29/2017 1:47 PM, drlegendre . via cctalk I didn't have as much luck with Windows Photo Viewer. While it does support multipage TIF, it seemed to hang after a few pages. Irfanview is a pretty solid viewer/manipulator under Windows. I've been using it to burst those TIFs into individual pages before making PDFs out of them. I'll post a link to them when they're ready. J From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Dec 2 01:18:17 2017 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 00:18:17 -0700 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> References: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> Message-ID: Of course he was invited! ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 12/1/2017 6:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 11/30/2017 10:20 PM, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: >> G'day fellow Nova'holics - >> >> >> Next year the Nova computer will be 50 years old, and we am organizing a >> celebration of this important part of minicomputer history.? Nova >> hardware and software designers, users and admirers can get initial >> information at: >> >> ? http://www.Nova-At-50.org >> >> The celebration of a half-century will come around only once, so check >> it out and sign up soon... > > Hey Bruce, > > Did you invite Ed de Castro? He's still around. > > Cheers, > Chuck > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 03:11:30 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:11:30 +0100 Subject: Old DEC PROM Images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-01 19:16 GMT+01:00 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk : > I am trying to bring some of my old PDP-11's back to life. Does > anyone have or know of a source for PROM Images? I need the > images for the M8189 (11/23+) and would also love to get the > images for my DECTalk. > Check here: https://web.archive.org/web/20140723115846/http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ > > bill > > /Mattis From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sat Dec 2 04:56:52 2017 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:56:52 +0000 Subject: Old DEC PROM Images In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53b21781-f29c-fb80-71dd-7660f38273eb@dunnington.plus.com> On 02/12/2017 09:11, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > 2017-12-01 19:16 GMT+01:00 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk > I am trying to bring some of my old PDP-11's back to life. Does >> anyone have or know of a source for PROM Images? I need the >> images for the M8189 (11/23+) and would also love to get the >> images for my DECTalk. > Check here: > https://web.archive.org/web/20140723115846/http://www.dunnington.u-net.com/public/DECROMs/ Or better still, here: http://www.dunnington.info/public/DECROMs/ There's a long story behind the change of domain name and why it's not been widely publicised, but the short version is that an ISP takeover screwed it up and it's parked for free until I sort out a permanent home - which never seems to get high enough up the priority list. Bill, if you want the latest version of the ROMs for an 11/23+ look for 23-453E4 and 23-454E4 which are 8Kbyte microPDP-11 images to fit in 2764 EPROMs - but if your M8189 currently has 2Kbyte EPROMs (likely, if it's in a BA11 box rather than BA23) you will need to change a jumper or two. Note that the files are binary images, not Intel HEX or any other encoded system, so make sure you download them with something that does not insert spurious carriage returns etc. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 05:49:22 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 12:49:22 +0100 Subject: test In-Reply-To: <000b01d36af9$52b1a090$f814e1b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000b01d36af9$52b1a090$f814e1b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Actually, I'm also having difficulty posting... So hereby testing, too. - MG 2017-12-02 0:08 GMT+01:00 Jay West via cctalk : > Test - no reply needed. > > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 07:04:30 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:04:30 +0100 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> References: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2 December 2017 at 02:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > Did you invite Ed de Castro? He's still around. What about Tracy Kidder? :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 07:20:52 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:20:52 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December Message-ID: Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following? It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings. I took the time to provide some details (that previously may have been missing) I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off to the recycler. ---- tape drives and media (pictures: , , , , , ) -- Ultrium (Linear Tape Open) - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks Ultrium 920 (LTO-3) external half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination - Quantum LTO-3 internal half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination - Seagate Viper 200 LTO-1 external full-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination - Hewlett-Packard, Quantum, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. LTO-{1,2,3} data and cleaning tape catridges, many new and unused, many available (see pictures) -- Digital Data Storage - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) internal tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE (possibly with auto-termination; not fully sure, need to check) - Sony SDT-D11000 DAT40 (DDS-4) external tape drive, SCSI (LVD?/)SE - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT160 (DDS-6) data and cleaning tapes, several tapes, nearly all new and unused - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) data and cleaning tapes, several boxes, 2~3, largely new and unused - Hewlett-Packard, Compaq, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. DDS-{1,2,3,4} data and cleaning tape cartridges, various types, many available (see pictures) ---- computer components (multi-platform, cross-architecture) - Hewlett-Packard-branded S2io/Exar/Neterion 10Gbit (10GBASE- SR) PCI-X NICs, including 850nm transceivers, supported on many platforms (including Windows, IRIX and OpenVMS), around 5 available - Hewlett-Packard, LSI, etc. PCI/-X adapters, e.g.: SCSI, FC, FC/SCSI duo (hybrid), etc. HBAs, NICs, IEEE-1394a (FireWire/ i.Link) adapters and more, various types and (re)brandings ---- software -- operating system - Hewlett-Packard OpenVMS (I64) Open Source Tools (2010) CD-ROM, in original sleeve - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX V5.1B Documentation (2010) CD-ROM, in original sleeve - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX NHD-7 (New Hardware Delivery) kit (2010), in original packaging (unopened), primarily intended for e.g. HP AlphaStation/AlphaServer DS15/A - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 (1999) CD-ROM, disc 1 of 2, in sleeve - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 & V7.2-1 System Crash Mandatory Update (1999) CD-ROM, in sleeve - Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, NL (Dutch), licenses included, 2 available - Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2b, NL (Dutch), OEM, only media (no license) -- applications - Frame (later Adobe) FrameMaker for SunOS/Solaris, advanced typesetting software, boxed with documentation and installation media - Sybase Database for OpenVMS (Alpha), in original jewel case - Syntax TotalNET Advanced Server for SunOS/Solaris(?), boxed - VITec RasterFLEX (v4.0) for SunOS/Solaris, boxed (pictures: , , ) - Sega DreamKey, internet web browser software(?) for Sega Dreamcast, in original jewel case ---- books (mostly English and some Dutch) - various (see picture: ), on computing/ computers, computer architectures (e.g. MC68000), the history of IBM, also computer graphics, covering software like Maya (v2.5), Houdini (v6~8) and LightWave 3D (v5.5~5.6), etc. ---- computer input devices and other peripherals - Wacom serial (perhaps also ADB and USB, need to check) digitizer tablets, in various sizes - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used ---- Cardbus adapters - Sitecom USB 2.0, providing 2 ports - SIIG IEEE-1394a FireWire ---- Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters - Keyspan Mac Serial Adapter (to USB) - Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one includes the original packaging ---- serial cables and converters - DeLock, generic, etc. DB9, DB25 and conversion cables, including straight-through and 'null-modem' varieties, fairly large amount available ---- SCSI, SAS/S-ATA and FC cabling - multi-vendor internal SAS to S-ATA cables, several, including in unopened packages - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables, several available - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI terminators, mainly LVD/SE (incl. UW and U320) but also HVD, both active and passive, several available - multi-vendor LC (LC to LC) fiber-optical cables (contact me about OM type), several available and in various lengths ---- PCs and components - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM x346 server at the time - ASUS M8N-E, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 8GB DDR2 RAM and documents - ASUS M2N-E SLI, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 4GB DDR2 RAM and documents - Cooler Master 600W (AT) PSU - Cooler Master(?) 460W (AT) PSU ---- SGI (MIPS-powered) IRIX systems and components - SGI Tezro & O3x0 HDD sled/tray (Intel type), with optional blanking/airflow plastic included, at least 1 (maybe 2, need to check) - SGI DMediaPro DM10-compatible IEEE-1394a FireWire (3.3V) PCI card with cables, SGI DMediaPro DM10 manual, etc., boxed - SGI IMPACT (MGRAS) 4MB TRAM module, possibly defective -- not really interested in selling, but in theory for sale (depending on the offer, I might be persuaded) - SGI Indigo? IMPACT/10000, with 195MHz MIPS R10000 CPU, 1GB RAM, High IMPACT plus 4MB TRAM, IMPACT Video plus VBOB, Plextor CD-ROM drive, intact bezel, lockbar included, etc. - SGI O2, with 400MHz MIPS R12000 CPU, 1GB RAM, digital A/V (AV2) module, Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, intact bezel, etc. ---- general 19" rack equipment - general 1U fan (low-noise ventilator) unit, with temperature monitoring & control - general rack trays (vented), at least one (possibly more) - general rack mounting bars, cable managers and other accessories - general mounting fasteners (RM mounting blocks and screws) ---- video games and peripherals - Nintendo Super Scope for Super NES (Nintendo Entertainment System), PAL/EUR region, including cartridge and documentation ---- graphics monitors, cables and accessories - Dell UltraSharp U2412M, 24" IPS LCD monitors, 1~2 available - ATEN USB & VGA (HD15) KVMs, with documentation, about 2~3 available - SGI 13W3 (HD13W3 to HD13W3) cable, about 2?~3 meters in length - generic short DVI-D cables (around ~0.5 meters / ~1.6 foot), ideal for SGI VBOB plus DM5 with DM2/DM3 - generic component monitor cables, one with RCA (tulip) and another with BNC cabling - generic DVI-D splitters (not sure if I still have them, I need to check) ---- video equipment - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V20L1D, 22" LCD, full HD, 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format broadcast monitor, with lots of built-in I/O (HD component, HD-SDI, HDCP-capable DVI, composite video, etc.), with a few dead pixels - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V1710CG, 17" CRT, full HD, 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format broadcast monitor, with various input modules (including SD-, HD-SDI and HD component, also available individually, in original boxes) - Gefen 1080p Scaler for HDMI, boxed, professional-grade digital video scaler (picture: ) - Miranda ASD-271p, professional analog-to-digital A/V signal converter, including external PSU, ?as-is? (untested, or not recently tested) - generic HDMI to 3G/HD-SDI (also SD-SDI capable) bridge - generic ~20 meter / ~66 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cable - DeLock ~10 meter / ~33 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cables, two available and one in the original packaging - DeLock and generic ~0.5~1 meter / ~1.6 foot, HD/3G/+ -SDI BNC cables, around 3~5 available - generic and various other lengths of HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cables, several available, some in original packaging - generic 75? BNC terminators for SDI, many available ---- photo-/cinematographic equipment -- cameras - Sony HDR-FX1000E, HD video camera (3-CMOS), with optional accessories, like large Sony carrying bag (pictures: ) - Blackmagic (Design) Pocket Cinema Camera (BMPCC), RAW & 10-bit ProRES, full HD video camera, in original box, plus optional accessories -- BMPCC accessories: - BMPCC batteries, multiple of Blackmagic Design and one of Nikon (original) - Kamerar QV-1 viewfinder magnifier (loupe) - ... and more (contact me) (pictures for all of the above and some of the below: ) -- lenses and adapters - Panasonic Lumix G II 14mm ?/2.5 prime MFT (Micro Four Thirds) lens - Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 14-42mm ?/3.5-5.6 Power- O.I.S. pancake electronic zoom MFT lens - Panasonic Lumix 45-200mm ?/4-5.6 Mega-O.I.S. zoom MFT lens - Metabones Speed Booster Nikon F/G to MFT (focal reduction) lens mount adapter - other MFT lens mount adapters (including with focal reduction), see pictures - Samyang 16mm T/2.2 VDSLR Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens - Sigma EX DG 17-50mm ?/2.8 Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens - KMZ Jupiter-8 50mm ?/2 Leica M39 35mm full-frame lens - Sigma Art DN 013 60mm ?/2.8 E-mount APS-C lens - Manfrotto 700RC2 lightweight video monopod/tripod head - Manfrotto 585-1 ModoSteady 3-in-1, compact stabilizer rig ---- audio equipment - Music Group/Behringer Ultra-Match SRC-9624, 96KHz 24-bit audio interface, barely used There might be more, but this is it for now. Not all is directly related to computers, but most of it has been used together with them, or can be used together with them or to document/conserve retro systems. Everything is located in the Netherlands. - MG From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 07:33:56 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:33:56 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2 December 2017 at 14:20, em gee via cctalk wrote: > Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following? > > It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings. > I took the time to provide some details (that previously may > have been missing) > > I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December > (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off > to the recycler. > - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used Potentially. > ---- Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters > - Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one > includes the original packaging Yes please! > - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables, > several available Argh, there is one kind I need badly, but they are in another city to me right now. :-( > ---- PCs and components > - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB > in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM > x346 server at the time Hmm. Would these work in an ordinary DDR2 machine? > Everything is located in the Netherlands. I'm in Czechia. Not _so_ far. May I circulate this list and your email elsewhere, e.g. the FB Vintage Computer Club group? If you'd rather I used a different email, what? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 09:36:50 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 10:36:50 -0500 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know a few of us have bought from them before, my experiences have been positive. I think the last thing I bought was a Teletype Model 33 ASR that fell on its face, seller made a pretty good deal as it was local pick-up and essentially it was a parts bucket at that point. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is a seller "potomacestore" that lists a number of items in various > condition. > > A HP9866A. very nice if you have the HP9830A but no printer! > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680 > > A weird Tektronix 8 inch drive thing. The drive resembles the Memorex 651 > drives, but could something else. But what is it? The photos are not very > good. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523 > > > A decent looking Tektronix 4112 terminal: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012 > > > And some other HP, tektronix stuff. > From rickb at bensene.com Sat Dec 2 10:17:59 2017 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 08:17:59 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C170107AE9B@mail.bensene.com> This is a wire rope ROM, but it is unpopulated, meaning that there are no wires strung through the cores to encode anything. The little pegs located below the cores are for routing the wire. The diodes are all for address selection, and the circuitry above the cores is the sense amplifiers to take the small current induced in the "secondary" winding around the core and amplify it to a level usable by the rest of the logic. It is a 20-bit wide word. I didn't take the time to try to figure out how many words that there are, but I'd suspect something on the order of 256 to 512 words could be stored. To program it, thin magnet wire would be soldered to pads at the outputs of the address decoding (one pad for each "word"), and then threaded through (or not) each of the 20 cores to encode 1's and 0's, and then mass terminated on another pad. The threading operation would be tedious. Generally there would be a special needle-like tool that would be used to thread the wire for each word. Definitely an interesting piece. -Rick --- Rick Bensene, The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tony Aiuto via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 7:12 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this before. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 10:44:56 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 11:44:56 -0500 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: <08A7EBB0-C155-47FA-80DA-197A17E0F1F3@shaw.ca> References: <08A7EBB0-C155-47FA-80DA-197A17E0F1F3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2017-Dec-01, at 7:12 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 > > > > EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It looks > > like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am guessing it is > > some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope memory. And maybe the > > cores are not cores at all, but some sort of inductor. I've not seen this > > before. > > > That's very funny. > It looks to be a core rope memory that hasn't been programmed. > I think that is the most likely case. > > Other organisations might be possible, but it looks like a > pulse-transformer type of core-rope, > where the cores are just for ordinary induction, not switching/memory > cores. > > - the matrix of black what-look-to-be diodes would be data-wire > isolation diodes > > - the little brown 'stools' are wire routing posts > > - you can see the mulit-turn sense windings (bluish) already > present on the cores > > - above the cores are the sense amplifiers or 1st stage thereof > > - there is one wire through all the cores, perhaps a test wire for > core and sense amp response > > Each data-wire would start at one of the solder pins in the pin matrix on > the left, weave through the cores to encode the data, > turn back 180, then 90 degrees around one of the stools to drop down and > terminate at the solder pin by an isolation diode. > > There would be another board for decoding the address to 1-of-x and 1-of-y. > > I didn't count precisely but it looks like it would be 256 words of 20 > bits. > > That might be a date code of 6847 on a cap (or is it 6B47?), so perhaps > earlier than the listing-stated 1981. > > Actually, it kind of hints at it in the description: "With out Firmware > ROM wire (empty slots)" > Ah, you read the description. I just looked at the title and saw "with the firmware". My addled brain made the leap to a external firmware, which made no sense. "firmware ROM wire" would be a clear case for rope memory. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > The last picture has "???-5". Some googling takes us to > https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%97%D0%A3 > > "DZU is a factory in Stara Zagora , a major producer of magnetic disk > storage devices (hard drives and floppy disks) during the rise of computer > production in Bulgaria in the 1970s and 1980s, century. Today it is part of > VIDEOTON Holding ZRt., Hungary [1] ." > > The article says it was a disk drive factory, but maybe... > > -- Charles > Given the cleanliness of the board and other things the seller is offering, my guess now is that this NOS from the DZU plant. Thanks, everyone. From Bruce at Wild-Hare.com Sat Dec 2 10:58:26 2017 From: Bruce at Wild-Hare.com (Bruce Ray) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 09:58:26 -0700 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: References: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> Message-ID: <7bda0986-763d-ae4c-4277-612b5e92acba@Wild-Hare.com> Yup (again) - a personal invitation has been sent to Mr. Kidder. Note that his book was about the MV, 10 years and 2 DG computer generations after the Nova. ----- Bruce Ray Wild Hare Computer Systems, Inc. Boulder, Colorado USA bkr at WildHareComputers.com ...preserving the Data General legacy: www.NovasAreForever.org On 12/2/2017 6:04 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On 2 December 2017 at 02:48, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> >> Did you invite Ed de Castro? He's still around. > > What about Tracy Kidder? :-) > From lproven at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 11:10:33 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:10:33 +0100 Subject: Nova 50 year celebration... In-Reply-To: <7bda0986-763d-ae4c-4277-612b5e92acba@Wild-Hare.com> References: <9efd99d3-7840-ba60-b2c2-1367e8c35e54@sydex.com> <7bda0986-763d-ae4c-4277-612b5e92acba@Wild-Hare.com> Message-ID: On 2 December 2017 at 17:58, Bruce Ray via cctalk wrote: > Yup (again) - a personal invitation has been sent to Mr. Kidder. > > Note that his book was about the MV, 10 years and 2 DG computer generations > after the Nova. Aha, fair enough. My apologies -- I can only blame brain-fade. I thought it was the Nova. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From brian at marstella.net Sat Dec 2 14:10:39 2017 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 15:10:39 -0500 Subject: SOL-20 and Helios-II in Louisville Message-ID: Hope this isn't too far off topic, but noticed a SOL-20, Helios-II, and several disks available in Louisville via Craigslist. Can't afford more stuff this year myself but price doesn't seem too bad. i don't know the person that has it, just found it as I was searching. https://louisville.craigslist.org/sys/d/processor-technology-sol-20/6391107432.html Regards, Brian. From t.gardner at computer.org Sat Dec 2 16:03:08 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 14:03:08 -0800 Subject: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? In-Reply-To: References: <08A7EBB0-C155-47FA-80DA-197A17E0F1F3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <001101d36bb9$56ae6d70$040b4850$@computer.org> My understanding is that DZU made disk storage subsystems including both drives and control units and that many if not all into the 1980s were copies of IBM disk storage products. The recollection is that IBM 2314 era SCU used a form of TROS where words were strips of film that punched a hole a one or a zero at each transformer (core) location to route the current around or through a core. The 2841 may have had the same technology. This could be done relatively easily in the field. At Memorex they used wire rope as TROS for the same function as I think did other PCMs. This was smaller and allowed faster clocks than film strips but was difficult but not impossible to field upgrade. Next generation SCUs went to writable control store's loadable from FDD's. So this might be a 2314 era TROS so its date could be early 70s given first PCM 2314's SCUs didn't ship until the early 1970s so I have a hard time thinking the Russian system beat US capitalism :-) But if they copied the 2841 and it used TROS then it could be late 60s Tom -----Original Message----- From: Tony Aiuto [mailto:tony.aiuto at gmail.com] Sent: Saturday, December 02, 2017 8:45 AM To: Brent Hilpert; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Can anyone identify what this board is/does? On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:05 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2017-Dec-01, at 7:12 AM, Tony Aiuto via cctalk wrote: > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/263005049078 > > > > EBay listing for a "Soviet Magnetic Ferrite Core Memory Board". It > > looks like 20 something gigantic cores and a lot of diodes. I am > > guessing it is some kind of ROM, but it doesn't look like a rope > > memory. And maybe the cores are not cores at all, but some sort of > > inductor. I've not seen this before. > > > That's very funny. > It looks to be a core rope memory that hasn't been programmed. > I think that is the most likely case. > > Other organisations might be possible, but it looks like a > pulse-transformer type of core-rope, where the cores are just for > ordinary induction, not switching/memory cores. > > - the matrix of black what-look-to-be diodes would be > data-wire isolation diodes > > - the little brown 'stools' are wire routing posts > > - you can see the mulit-turn sense windings (bluish) already > present on the cores > > - above the cores are the sense amplifiers or 1st stage > thereof > > - there is one wire through all the cores, perhaps a test wire > for core and sense amp response > > Each data-wire would start at one of the solder pins in the pin matrix > on the left, weave through the cores to encode the data, turn back > 180, then 90 degrees around one of the stools to drop down and > terminate at the solder pin by an isolation diode. > > There would be another board for decoding the address to 1-of-x and 1-of-y. > > I didn't count precisely but it looks like it would be 256 words of 20 > bits. > > That might be a date code of 6847 on a cap (or is it 6B47?), so > perhaps earlier than the listing-stated 1981. > > Actually, it kind of hints at it in the description: "With out > Firmware ROM wire (empty slots)" > Ah, you read the description. I just looked at the title and saw "with the firmware". My addled brain made the leap to a external firmware, which made no sense. "firmware ROM wire" would be a clear case for rope memory. On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 11:32 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > The last picture has "???-5". Some googling takes us to > https://bg.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%94%D0%97%D0%A3 > > "DZU is a factory in Stara Zagora , a major producer of magnetic disk > storage devices (hard drives and floppy disks) during the rise of > computer production in Bulgaria in the 1970s and 1980s, century. Today > it is part of VIDEOTON Holding ZRt., Hungary [1] ." > > The article says it was a disk drive factory, but maybe... > > -- Charles > Given the cleanliness of the board and other things the seller is offering, my guess now is that this NOS from the DZU plant. Thanks, everyone. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 18:31:14 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 16:31:14 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! Message-ID: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the display. This is with the power off. Is the LCD display failing? Can it be repaired? This thing has been a a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go. Anyone know? --Chuck From trash80 at internode.on.net Sat Dec 2 18:34:01 2017 From: trash80 at internode.on.net (Kevin Parker) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:34:01 +1100 Subject: C64's still managing building systems Message-ID: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> I spotted this article in one of my tech news feeds - it makes a couple of references to C64's still managing building systems. Rationale "it isn't broken". May be of interest to some list members. https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/many-commercial-property-companies-still-underestimate-the-impact-of-technology-study/ There's also a link in the above article to an older article (and a video) about a Commodore Amiga running the heating system for 19 schools for 30 years which may also be of interest. http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/ Kevin Parker P: 0418 815 527 From chd at chdickman.com Sat Dec 2 18:55:17 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:55:17 -0500 Subject: PDP8 ALGOL Message-ID: I have been looking at the available software for the PDP8, particularly languages. I see there was an ALGOL. The source is archived on Bitsavers and dbit. There is some information here: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/algol60impl/ Has anyone played with this before? Is there any additional information on how to use it? -chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 19:11:19 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 23:11:19 -0200 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> Message-ID: Chuck, probably the LCD is gone south. But would the thisplay be the same of contemporary HP calculators (11/12)? 2017-12-02 22:31 GMT-02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and > thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the > display. This is with the power off. > > Is the LCD display failing? Can it be repaired? This thing has been a > a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go. > > Anyone know? > > --Chuck > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 19:18:37 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 21:18:37 -0400 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage, there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a reasonable cost.? If you you look in the archives of the forums on hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable replacement.? I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult. Paul. On 2017-12-02 9:11 PM, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: > Chuck, probably the LCD is gone south. But would the thisplay be the same > of contemporary HP calculators (11/12)? > > 2017-12-02 22:31 GMT-02:00 Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > >> Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and >> thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the >> display. This is with the power off. >> >> Is the LCD display failing? Can it be repaired? This thing has been a >> a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go. >> >> Anyone know? >> >> --Chuck >> From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Dec 2 20:08:00 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 02:08:00 +0000 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I considered the Tektronix 4051 hardcopy unit, but my search turned up zilch for the paper (3M Dry Silver type) Price is right, the printer looks great, but no source for the paper that I can find. randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of systems_glitch via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:36 AM To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ebay listings from potomacstore I know a few of us have bought from them before, my experiences have been positive. I think the last thing I bought was a Teletype Model 33 ASR that fell on its face, seller made a pretty good deal as it was local pick-up and essentially it was a parts bucket at that point. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is a seller "potomacestore" that lists a number of items in various > condition. > > A HP9866A. very nice if you have the HP9830A but no printer! > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/401341724680-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] VINTAGE HP 9866A Uppercase 5x7 Dot Matrix Printer for HP 9830A Calculator | eBay www.ebay.com Designed For use with HP 9830A Calculator. Uppercase 5x7 dot cell matrix. Print speed of 250 lines per minute. Evaluated and Non-Functioning, R2/Ready for Repair: The equipment must be evaluated prior to sale to ensure that the resale value will exceed the cost of repairs, and that the equipment is capable of being repaired. | eBay! > > A weird Tektronix 8 inch drive thing. The drive resembles the Memorex 651 > drives, but could something else. But what is it? The photos are not very > good. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/192119338523-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] Vintage Tektronix Computer Dual 8 Inch Floppy Drive | eBay www.ebay.com Did not have test media or interface to conduct further tests. Key functions tested Potomac eCycle is certified to the R2/RIOS standard which was created specifically for the Electronics Recyling industry to promote Environmental, Health and Safety. | eBay! > > > A decent looking Tektronix 4112 terminal: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/401325451012-0-1/s-l1000.jpg] VINTAGE Tektronix 4112A 15 In. Computer Display Terminal w/RS-232C Interface | eBay www.ebay.com RS-232C Interface. Evaluated and Non-Functioning, R2/Ready for Repair: The equipment must be evaluated prior to sale to ensure that the resale value will exceed the cost of repairs, and that the equipment is capable of being repaired. | eBay! > > > And some other HP, tektronix stuff. > From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 2 21:32:19 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 21:32:19 -0600 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <5A237043.30600@pico-systems.com> On 12/02/2017 08:08 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > I considered the Tektronix 4051 hardcopy unit, but my search turned up zilch for the paper (3M Dry Silver type) > > > Price is right, the printer looks great, but no source for the paper that I can find. > > > Oh, man! That stuff hasn't been made since about 1974 or so, and was absolutely HORRIBLE stuff then. The thermal developer emitted nasty smells and filled the whole unit with white crystals. The paper turned brown after a few weeks exposure to room lights. So, good for short-term copies only. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 2 22:39:48 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:39:48 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/02/2017 05:18 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage, > there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a > reasonable cost.? If you you look in the archives of the forums on > hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable > replacement.? I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult. That's good to know. Yes, the ground seems to be littered with used 12Cs; I wasn't sure if the LCD was compatible. I"ll do some reading. Certainly less expensive that getting the 16C clone from the guy in Switzerland. Thanks, Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 00:32:20 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 06:32:20 +0000 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 4:39 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/02/2017 05:18 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> A good source of replacement displays is from 12C of the same vintage, >> there was lots of them produced and they can often be obtained for a >> reasonable cost. If you you look in the archives of the forums on >> hpmuseum.org you will find advise on what to look for for a suitable >> replacement. I have done the surgery myself and it is not too difficult. > > That's good to know. Yes, the ground seems to be littered with used > 12Cs; I wasn't sure if the LCD was compatible. I"ll do some reading. I am pretty sure the orginal fault is the liquid crystal material leaking out of the display. At rest the liquid crystal twists the plane of polarisation of light through 90 degrees, when the electric field it applied then the molecules line up and it doesn't twist the plane of polarisation. The display has a polarising filter on each side, arranged at 90 degrees to each other. So at rest light passes with no problems, when the field is applied you are effectively looking through crossed polarisers so it's dark. Of course if the liquid crystal leaks out you are looking through crossed polarisers with nothing between them so you get a black display. The other Voyagers (10C, 11C, 12C, 15C) of the same vintage should use the same display. But more recent 12Cs do not as far as I know. You have to get one that uses 3 button cells, not the version using a lithium cell. There are at least 2 versions of the construction of the old Voyagers. Initially the electronics was assembled on a flexible PCB fitted to a plastic frame. The LCD was clamped onto that. There was a tail on the flexible PCB that connected to the keyboard (normal PCB heat-staked to the top case) with a zebrastrip connector. Later on, it was all on one PCB heat-staked to the top case. I've seen 16Cs of both constructions and as far as I know the display are the same. But if yours is the later version you will have to cut the heat stakes to get the PCB out to replace the display and re-attach it afterwards. -tony From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 08:35:24 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 09:35:24 -0500 Subject: Slightly Meta: Travel tips for people traveling internationally with vintage equipment Message-ID: > > > From: Michael Brutman > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Slightly Meta: Travel tips for people traveling > internationally with vintage equipment? > Message-ID: > mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > I'm actively working on show planning for VCF PNW and I'm noticing that we > have a few international travelers planning to attend and exhibit their > machines/projects. I'd like to put together a FAQ for the logistics of > traveling with vintage equipment across the US border. If you have ideas > please let me know. > > For example: Should I plan on providing letters in advance stating that a > person is a registered exhibitor at our show, including details like the > show location, dates, times, and contact information in case there is a > question about why somebody is carrying strange looking equipment into the > US? Is there any sort of paperwork or customs form needed even if nothing > is being sold or left in the US? Any other gotchas to look for? > > > Thanks, > Mike > I often travel internationally with strange looking electronics. If I am questioned, I say that it is for my personal use during travel. If you are bringing things that are very valuable, you can get a Carnet to temporarily import items to the US and then export them without paying duty. It is sometimes a painful process to find the right person at the airport to stamp the Carnet on the way in and out, and often the customs people have no idea what a Carnet is. The Carnet also costs more than $200 and requires a security deposit based on the value of the item. https://www.export.gov/article?id=ATA-Carnet http://www.uscib.org/ata-carnet-faqs-ud-1675/ -- Michael Thompson From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 3 10:58:51 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 11:58:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: FTGH: Old ham radio headset Message-ID: <20171203165851.7E9D018C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> FTGH: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/jpg/tmp/HeadSet.jpg Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 3 11:32:01 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:32:01 -0500 Subject: FTGH: Old ham radio headset Message-ID: <18a4e7.2d2374c4.47558f0f@aol.com> A ww 2 style headset! Ed# In a message dated 12/3/2017 9:59:01 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 13:22:52 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 13:22:52 -0600 Subject: C64's still managing building systems In-Reply-To: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> References: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: "A new, more current system would cost between $1.5 and 2 million. " Something tells me there's more than a Commodore Amiga involved, here. This figure must include the radio hardware and controllers at each of the schools. The article goes on to say that a student at one of the high schools wrote the software that runs it all.. but it must also require some sort of controller / interface, so who supplied that (sans software)? Doesn't really make much sense, but then again, not a lot of reporting does. On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 6:34 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I spotted this article in one of my tech news feeds - it makes a couple of > references to C64's still managing building systems. > Rationale "it isn't broken". > > > > May be of interest to some list members. > > > > https://www.commercialrealestate.com.au/news/many-commercial-property- > companies-still-underestimate-the-impact-of-technology-study/ > > > > There's also a link in the above article to an older article (and a video) > about a Commodore Amiga running the heating system for 19 > schools for 30 years which may also be of interest. > > > > http://woodtv.com/2015/06/11/1980s-computer-controls-grps-heat-and-ac/ > > > > > > > > Kevin Parker > > P: 0418 815 527 > > > > > > From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 3 14:45:31 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 12:45:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: C64's still managing building systems In-Reply-To: References: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: > "A new, more current system would cost between $1.5 and 2 million. " On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, drlegendre . via cctalk wrote: > Something tells me there's more than a Commodore Amiga involved, here. This > figure must include the radio hardware and controllers at each of the > schools. The article goes on to say that a student at one of the high > schools wrote the software that runs it all.. but it must also require some > sort of controller / interface, so who supplied that (sans software)? > Doesn't really make much sense, but then again, not a lot of reporting does. First, the school board needs to go to Hawaii, Japan, France, Germany, and Greece, in order to see how it is done there. (In our commuter community college (adult enrichment, college prep, basic and remedial skills, skill updating for local professionals, job training for the digital sweatshop), the Chancellor took his large "entourage" to China "to recruit students for the community college". How many 18 year olds would relocate to a different continent for the sole purpose of attending a local community college? Then they need to hire a consultant to define the problem. Then they need consultants to conduct studies. Then they need to contract with systems analysis consulting companies to prepare proposals of possible solutions. Then they need engineering consultants to reject the current round of proposals. Then they need to see if IBM wants to design a dedicated system. That may require some more travel. Then they need to fly in the superintendent's brother in law to check it out. Then, IFF there is any money left in the budget for the project, they can hire a consultant to buy and set up an Arduino, or an old Amiga out of the closet. Yes, they do spend somewhat more than the direct hardware cost. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 15:49:33 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:49:33 -0500 Subject: C64's still managing building systems References: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> Message-ID: <71C90008C8E245E2B3888EA1A7764CE6@310e2> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Fred Cisin via cctalk" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sunday, December 03, 2017 3:45 PM Subject: Re: C64's still managing building systems >> "A new, more current system would cost between $1.5 and 2 million. " > > On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, drlegendre . via cctalk wrote: >> Something tells me there's more than a Commodore Amiga involved, here. This >> figure must include the radio hardware and controllers at each of the >> schools. The article goes on to say that a student at one of the high >> schools wrote the software that runs it all.. but it must also require some >> sort of controller / interface, so who supplied that (sans software)? >> Doesn't really make much sense, but then again, not a lot of reporting does. > > First, the school board needs to go to Hawaii, Japan, France, Germany, and > Greece, in order to see how it is done there. > (In our commuter community college (adult enrichment, college > prep, basic and remedial skills, skill updating for local professionals, > job training for the digital sweatshop), the Chancellor took his large > "entourage" to China "to recruit students for the community college". > How many 18 year olds would relocate to a different continent for the sole > purpose of attending a local community college? > > Then they need to hire a consultant to define the problem. > > Then they need consultants to conduct studies. > > Then they need to contract with systems analysis consulting companies to > prepare proposals of possible solutions. > > Then they need engineering consultants to reject the current round of > proposals. > > Then they need to see if IBM wants to design a dedicated system. That may > require some more travel. > > Then they need to fly in the superintendent's brother in law to check it > out. > > Then, IFF there is any money left in the budget for the project, they can > hire a consultant to buy and set up an Arduino, or an old Amiga out of the > closet. > > Yes, they do spend somewhat more than the direct hardware cost. -------------- That seems to describe perfectly the approach to our (Canada's) federal payroll system that's gone from a $5 million contract to $180m in two years, with lots of employees still not getting their correct pay or any pay at all . http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/phoenix-ibm-contract-union-pay-government-1.4295827 Peanuts compared to Queensland's 6m to 1.2 billion disaster: http://www.smh.com.au/it-pro/government-it/queensland-health-payroll-fail-government-ordered-to-pay-ibm-costs-20160404-gnxpqj.html Gotta hand it to IBM's lawyers though; they came out blameless... m From rlloken at telus.net Sun Dec 3 15:57:18 2017 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 14:57:18 -0700 (MST) Subject: C64's still managing building systems In-Reply-To: Lc8FeOsERkLzTLc8GeA7CI References: <08c201d36bce$6aa7c050$3ff740f0$@internode.on.net> Lc8FeOsERkLzTLc8GeA7CI Message-ID: On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Mike Stein via cctalk wrote: > That seems to describe perfectly the approach to our (Canada's) federal > payroll system that's gone from a $5 million contract to $180m in two > years, with lots of employees still not getting their correct pay or any > pay at all I think it should be called the Icarus Project rather than the Pheonix Project since Icarus flew too close to the sun and fell to his death in compoarison to the Pheonix who dies in flames and rises from his own ashes. I don't see much hope of this Pheonix rising any time soon. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV : "...underneath those tuques we wear, Athabasca, Alberta Canada : our heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 3 16:07:55 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 14:07:55 -0800 Subject: Vidar large format scanner available Message-ID: I have a Vidar P-62 large format scanner available to anyone willing to come pick it up. It has a SCSI interface. Drivers for Windows XP are available on the web, don't know about newer Windows or other operating systems. Also, it's completely untested, I have nothing that's has a SCSI interface. Located in Santa Cruz, CA Some photos here: http://anifur.com/clist/ Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From couryhouse at aol.com Sun Dec 3 18:22:47 2017 From: couryhouse at aol.com (Ed Sharpe) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 19:22:47 -0500 Subject: Vidar large format scanner available In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1601ee75f69-1917-7d4c@webjas-vad051.srv.aolmail.net> how large is it? thx ed# Sent from AOL Mobile Mail On Sunday, December 3, 2017 Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: I have a Vidar P-62 large format scanner available to anyone willing to come pick it up. It has a SCSI interface. Drivers for Windows XP are available on the web, don't know about newer Windows or other operating systems. Also, it's completely untested, I have nothing that's has a SCSI interface. Located in Santa Cruz, CA Some photos here: http://anifur.com/clist/ Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Dec 3 18:43:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 16:43:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Vidar large format scanner available In-Reply-To: <1601ee75f69-1917-7d4c@webjas-vad051.srv.aolmail.net> References: <1601ee75f69-1917-7d4c@webjas-vad051.srv.aolmail.net> Message-ID: 36". It is NOT a flatbed. On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > how large is it? thx ed# > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Sunday, December 3, 2017 Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I have a Vidar P-62 large format scanner available to anyone willing to > come pick it up. > > It has a SCSI interface. Drivers for Windows XP are available on the > web, don't know about newer Windows > or other operating systems. Also, it's completely untested, I have > nothing that's has a SCSI interface. > > Located in Santa Cruz, CA > > Some photos here: http://anifur.com/clist/ > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From lproven at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 18:56:54 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 01:56:54 +0100 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas Message-ID: https://twitter.com/tapbot_paul/status/937465839888093184/photo/1 I don't know if anyone is in the area to rescue this... -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sun Dec 3 22:50:40 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 05:50:40 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thank you for the interest, today I'll personally reply to those who showed interest. (My apologies, I didn't find the opportunity during the weekend.) I also created another overview of what I have up for sale: < http://bit.ly/2ifO5xE> (Which I'll be updating.) - MG From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Dec 3 23:39:39 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 00:39:39 -0500 Subject: Vidar large format scanner available Message-ID: <444e14.7be36625.4756399a@aol.com> opps yepper large... a pity not close.. Ed In a message dated 12/3/2017 5:44:03 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: 36". It is NOT a flatbed. On Sun, 3 Dec 2017, Ed Sharpe via cctalk wrote: > how large is it? thx ed# > > Sent from AOL Mobile Mail > > On Sunday, December 3, 2017 Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > I have a Vidar P-62 large format scanner available to anyone willing to > come pick it up. > > It has a SCSI interface. Drivers for Windows XP are available on the > web, don't know about newer Windows > or other operating systems. Also, it's completely untested, I have > nothing that's has a SCSI interface. > > Located in Santa Cruz, CA > > Some photos here: http://anifur.com/clist/ > > Bob > > -- > Vintage computers and electronics > www.dvq.com > www.tekmuseum.com > www.decmuseum.org > -- Fred Cisin cisin at xenosoft.com XenoSoft http://www.xenosoft.com PO Box 1236 (510) 234-3397 Berkeley, CA 94701-1236 From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 4 13:36:54 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 20:36:54 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 November 2017 at 14:30, Liam Proven wrote: > I hope this is vintage enough. > > I've been playing around some more with my projects to create VMs / > bootable USB keys with PC DOS 7.1 and DR-DOS. Status update: I now have a working VirtualBox VM with DR-DOS 7.01-06, the last stable version from the DR-DOS Enhancement Project, which includes FAT32 support. It's a bootable hard disk image, with the DR-DOS multitasker and ViewMax enabled: in other words, a multitasking FAT32-capable FOSS DOS, complete with a GUI. I'm currently working on turning it into a bootable USB key as well, but there do seem to be some problems with that. I've managed it once, with PC DOS 7.0, but not again, and I'm not sure what I'm doing differently. Anyway, that's a separate consideration for now. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From jon at jonworld.com Tue Dec 5 07:51:25 2017 From: jon at jonworld.com (Jonathan Katz) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 13:51:25 +0000 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Totally on the wrong continent but this needs to be saved!!! On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 12:56 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://twitter.com/tapbot_paul/status/937465839888093184/photo/1 > > I don't know if anyone is in the area to rescue this... > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 > -- -Jon +44 7792 149029 From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Dec 5 08:23:44 2017 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 08:23:44 -0600 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171205142343.GA9938@lonesome.com> On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 01:51:25PM +0000, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: > Totally on the wrong continent but this needs to be saved!!! Looks like there are already several users on Twitter who have stepped up. (I would have drive up from Austin myself -- even though I need *less* stuff.) mcl From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:02:38 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:02:38 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: I have now dumped the firmware from the HP2640B terminal. Since the EA4900 ROMs are not much like normal EPROMs in regards to pinout and supply voltages I resorted to use a logic analyzer to dump the contents of the ROM simply by parsing out the ROM accesses while the terminal did the selftest. It took a quite many dumps to get the full firmware out of it since my analyzer HP16550 boards have limited storage. Someone that has a HP16555A board to sell? http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/HP2640B/2640.hex One file for all four ROMs. The good thing attaching the analyzer was that it helped me to find the two bad 2102 chips on one of the memory boards. Now I get the full 5kKbytes. While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more info on these? With the firmware downloaded I tried to investigate why the small Diagnostic Download example described here: http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dev_en/hp2644/diag.html The example tries to call address 315 octal, but the firmware I dumped has a HLT instruction at this location which explains why the terminal hangs completely. The HP2644 firmware is most likely different from the HP2640B firmware. http://www.datormuseum.se/peripherals/terminals/hp-264x From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Dec 5 09:26:13 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:26:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find > relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory > Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more > info on these? The manual for the 02640-60088 is here: http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2542 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:35:47 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:35:47 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-05 16:26 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : > On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find >> relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory >> Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more >> info on these? >> > > The manual for the 02640-60088 is here: > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2542 Thanks! Those numbers fooled me. Some time the number seems to correspond a bit between the number on the board and some times not. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:40:30 2017 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:40:30 -0600 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:50 PM, em gee via cctalk wrote: > I also created another overview of what I have up for sale: < > http://bit.ly/2ifO5xE> (Which I'll be updating.) I have to ask: what generated that chart? That's a creative way to display a list of items. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 09:46:53 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 16:46:53 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <122fd44d-e48f-2e70-da84-514f288e5a0c@gmail.com> Hello, Op 5-dec-2017 om 16:40 schreef Jason T via cctalk: > On Sun, Dec 3, 2017 at 10:50 PM, em gee via cctalk > wrote: >> I also created another overview of what I have up for sale: < >> http://bit.ly/2ifO5xE> (Which I'll be updating.) > > I have to ask: what generated that chart? That's a creative way to > display a list of items. For that I used the (free) so-called mind mapping software FreeMind. I like it to organize things and it has this very useful feature to generate (X)HTML files, too. Kind regards, Marco From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Dec 5 09:51:04 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 10:51:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2017-12-05 16:26 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : > >> On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >> While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find >>> relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory >>> Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more >>> info on these? >>> >> >> The manual for the 02640-60088 is here: >> >> http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2542 > > > Thanks! Those numbers fooled me. Some time the number seems to correspond a > bit between the number on the board and some times not. The Data Terminal Technical Information Package contains a cross-reference for PCAs and Module numbers. Unfortunately, it doesn't list the 02640-60009. http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2541 Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 11:14:21 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 18:14:21 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-05 16:51 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : > On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2017-12-05 16:26 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : >> >> On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find >>> >>>> relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory >>>> Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more >>>> info on these? >>>> >>>> >>> The manual for the 02640-60088 is here: >>> >>> http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2542 >> >> Looking more into this document revelas that it covers three boards 02640-60009, 02640-60088 and 02640-60112. Now I had the idea of dumping the character ROM as well. But what is a AMD 27S82? I cannot really find a datasheet online. From the schematics above it looks not too much off from standard 2716 EPROM with pin 19 (A10) as E3 , pin 21 (VPP) as /E1. But my Data I/O 29B does not seem to be compatible with 27S82 and as pin 21 is active low it gives that a 2716 setting in the programmer (reader) won't work. Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the device list? > >>> >> >> Thanks! Those numbers fooled me. Some time the number seems to correspond >> a >> bit between the number on the board and some times not. >> > > The Data Terminal Technical Information Package contains a > cross-reference for PCAs and Module numbers. Unfortunately, it doesn't > list the 02640-60009. > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2541 > > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ > From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Tue Dec 5 12:18:22 2017 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 13:18:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2017-12-05 16:51 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : > >> On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> 2017-12-05 16:26 GMT+01:00 Mike Loewen via cctalk : >>> >>> On Tue, 5 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>> While going through the HP2640B I found two boards which I cannot find >>>> >>>>> relevant schematic and description for, the 02640-60009 Display Memory >>>>> Access Module and the 02640-60088 Display Timing Module. Anyone has more >>>>> info on these? >>>>> >>>>> >>>> The manual for the 02640-60088 is here: >>>> >>>> http://www.hpmuseum.net/document.php?hwfile=2542 >>> >>> > > Looking more into this document revelas that it covers three boards > 02640-60009, 02640-60088 and 02640-60112. > > Now I had the idea of dumping the character ROM as well. But what is a AMD > 27S82? I cannot really find a datasheet online. From the schematics above > it looks not too much off from standard 2716 EPROM with pin 19 (A10) as E3 > , pin 21 (VPP) as /E1. But my Data I/O 29B does not seem to be compatible > with 27S82 and as pin 21 is active low it gives that a 2716 setting in the > programmer (reader) won't work. > > Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the > device list? I couldn't find that part number either, but I dumped the PROMs on my 2647A Control Memory PCAs, which use an AMD AM9216BDC PROM. It appears to be set up the same way as you describe. I hand-wired an adapter to plug into my 29B, and told it that I was reading a 2716. The datasheet for the AM9216BDC is in the AMD MOS/LSI Data Book: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/components/amd/_dataBooks/1980_AMD_MOS_LSI_Data_Book.pdf Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Dec 5 13:44:11 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 11:44:11 -0800 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-05, at 9:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Looking more into this document revelas that it covers three boards > 02640-60009, 02640-60088 and 02640-60112. > > Now I had the idea of dumping the character ROM as well. But what is a AMD > 27S82? I cannot really find a datasheet online. From the schematics above > it looks not too much off from standard 2716 EPROM with pin 19 (A10) as E3 > , pin 21 (VPP) as /E1. But my Data I/O 29B does not seem to be compatible > with 27S82 and as pin 21 is active low it gives that a 2716 setting in the > programmer (reader) won't work. > > Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the > device list? FWIW, 27S82 is listed in the 1982 IC Master as AM27S82M: TTL 1024*8 ROM, 275nS access, OC outputs, 24 pin, 5V supply So half the size of a 2716. The book lists PROMs and ROMs separately, so it was probably mask-programmed. (M would be for mil temp going by other AMD numbers.) From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 15:08:47 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 22:08:47 +0100 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: 2017-12-05 20:44 GMT+01:00 Brent Hilpert via cctalk : > On 2017-Dec-05, at 9:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > > > Looking more into this document revelas that it covers three boards > > 02640-60009, 02640-60088 and 02640-60112. > > > > Now I had the idea of dumping the character ROM as well. But what is a > AMD > > 27S82? I cannot really find a datasheet online. From the schematics above > > it looks not too much off from standard 2716 EPROM with pin 19 (A10) as > E3 > > , pin 21 (VPP) as /E1. But my Data I/O 29B does not seem to be > compatible > > with 27S82 and as pin 21 is active low it gives that a 2716 setting in > the > > programmer (reader) won't work. > > > > Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the > > device list? > > FWIW, 27S82 is listed in the 1982 IC Master as > > AM27S82M: TTL 1024*8 ROM, 275nS access, OC outputs, 24 pin, 5V > supply > > So half the size of a 2716. > The book lists PROMs and ROMs separately, so it was probably > mask-programmed. > (M would be for mil temp going by other AMD numbers.) > > I would think bipolar PROM since rest of the AMD 27S series were bipolar PROMs. I will check this weekend if I can find an old AMD databook. I do have the "Schottky and Low-Power Schottky Bipolar memory, Logic and Interface" somewhere. https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B-rp4vyPPYu1Z3d6MkxRQ1NlVXc/view?usp=sharing I traced the card to understand if the board actually matched the schematics and it did. Pin 18 was NC and the it was possible to read the chip with my trusty Data IO 29B as a 2732 and just use the first 1024 bytes out of it. The resulting files are here for those who like to preserve them: http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/HP2640B/hp2640b-chargen-1816-0612.hex http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/HP2640B/hp2640b-chargen-1816-0613.hex From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Dec 5 15:20:16 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 13:20:16 -0800 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On 2017-Dec-05, at 1:08 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2017-12-05 20:44 GMT+01:00 Brent Hilpert via cctalk : > >On 2017-Dec-05, at 9:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > >> Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the > >> device list? > > >FWIW, 27S82 is listed in the 1982 IC Master as > > > AM27S82M: TTL 1024*8 ROM, 275nS access, OC outputs, 24 pin, 5V supply > > >So half the size of a 2716. > >The book lists PROMs and ROMs separately, so it was probably mask-programmed. > >(M would be for mil temp going by other AMD numbers.) > > I would think bipolar PROM since rest of the AMD 27S series were bipolar PROMs. I will check this weekend if I can find an old AMD databook. The ref did specify it as TTL, so yes, bipolar. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Tue Dec 5 15:36:38 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 13:36:38 -0800 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <62F8F5F5-1EBC-422F-8C45-C138AEB3F3A7@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-05, at 1:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-Dec-05, at 1:08 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> 2017-12-05 20:44 GMT+01:00 Brent Hilpert via cctalk : >>> On 2017-Dec-05, at 9:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the >>>> device list? >> >>> FWIW, 27S82 is listed in the 1982 IC Master as >> >>> AM27S82M: TTL 1024*8 ROM, 275nS access, OC outputs, 24 pin, 5V supply >> >>> So half the size of a 2716. >>> The book lists PROMs and ROMs separately, so it was probably mask-programmed. >>> (M would be for mil temp going by other AMD numbers.) >> >> I would think bipolar PROM since rest of the AMD 27S series were bipolar PROMs. I will check this weekend if I can find an old AMD databook. > > The ref did specify it as TTL, so yes, bipolar. Oh, as for being PROM vs ROM, I'm just going by the way things are listed in the ref. It lists different 27Sxx devices under PROM vs ROM, for example 27S180, 27S181 are 1024*8 listed under PROM, but 27S80, 27S81, 27S82, 27S83 are 1024*8 listed under ROM. It's possible they're mis-listed of course, but manufacturers often did make equivalent devices as both fusible and mask, I don't know what AMD did for series names in that regard. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 5 16:51:19 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 14:51:19 -0800 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas In-Reply-To: <20171205142343.GA9938@lonesome.com> References: <20171205142343.GA9938@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 12/5/2017 6:23 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 01:51:25PM +0000, Jonathan Katz via cctalk wrote: >> Totally on the wrong continent but this needs to be saved!!! > Looks like there are already several users on Twitter who have stepped up. > > (I would have drive up from Austin myself -- even though I need *less* stuff.) > > mcl I also saw it on the craigslist discussion on vcf, which got more attention.? hopefully there is time to get this before it is recycled.? Or made into some steampunk display. From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 17:28:01 2017 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 17:28:01 -0600 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas In-Reply-To: References: <20171205142343.GA9938@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 12/05/2017 04:51 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: > I also saw it on the craigslist discussion on vcf, which got more > attention. Also on one of the Facebook groups. I expect the owner is completely drowning in "give me your cool stuff!" messages by now and about ready to pitch the whole lot into a river. From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 18:27:17 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 01:27:17 +0100 Subject: NeXT hardware about to be recycled in Texas In-Reply-To: References: <20171205142343.GA9938@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 6 December 2017 at 00:28, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: > > Also on one of the Facebook groups. I expect the owner is completely > drowning in "give me your cool stuff!" messages by now and about ready to > pitch the whole lot into a river. That'd be me, I'm afraid. I hope it worked. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Dec 5 18:59:24 2017 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 5 Dec 2017 19:59:24 -0500 Subject: PDP8 ALGOL Message-ID: > > From: Charles Dickman > Subject: PDP8 ALGOL > > I have been looking at the available software for the PDP8, > particularly languages. I see there was an ALGOL. The source is > archived on Bitsavers and dbit. > > There is some information here: > http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/ALGOL/algol60impl/ > > Has anyone played with this before? Is there any additional > information on how to use it? > > -chuck > I have looked at the 4k ALGOL described here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/decus/pdp8/8-213_4K_ALGOL.pdf The paper tape images are here: http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/set3/ The RICM also has an original set of the DECUS 8-213 ALGOL paper tapes, but they are different from the ones on Bitsavers. I need to make images of these tapes. Students at the UMN are trying to get ALGOL to run on their PDP-12 so they can run some benchmarking software. We haven't been able to get DECUS 8-213 ALGOL working. Any help would be appreciated. -- Michael Thompson From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 02:28:39 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 00:28:39 -0800 Subject: Playing with HP2640B In-Reply-To: <62F8F5F5-1EBC-422F-8C45-C138AEB3F3A7@shaw.ca> References: <555C99B3-D2B1-4D83-97E7-025672F96790@gmail.com> <9D320F2C-7E37-474E-B202-D719251767C3@shaw.ca> <62F8F5F5-1EBC-422F-8C45-C138AEB3F3A7@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <83A0AF7E-86E7-48E4-8562-D970ED063DB7@gmail.com> We just dumped the enhanced character ROMs from a HP2645. 8k bipolar mask ROMs, 90 ns (they need to be fast since they are used as video RAM really). I read them on the Data IO using their PROM equivalent, AMD 27S181. The microvectors sets (line set and large character sets) are 9 bits. The 9th bit comes out on pin 18 in place of an enable pin in the more conventional 8-bit version. I read them in two passes, wiring the pin for bit 9 in place of bit 8 pin the second time around. 9-bit mask ROMs! Why not 5-legged pigs while you are at it. Then we found that even HP had misgivings about their weird 9-bit ROM choices, must have cost a fortune. Carl had a later rev board that had 8-bit version of the microvector sets, where the board has electronics to create an emulated 9th bit by shifting all the bits out and duplicating bit 0. Better yet, we burned some new 8-bit bipolar PROMs (Harris 7681), emulated the bit shifting on my older rev of the board by cross-wiring, and added new large character sets to my terminal! That was fun. Marc On Dec 5, 2017, at 1:36 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: On 2017-Dec-05, at 1:20 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: >> On 2017-Dec-05, at 1:08 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> 2017-12-05 20:44 GMT+01:00 Brent Hilpert via cctalk : >>> On 2017-Dec-05, at 9:14 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> >>>> Does the 27S82 have any equivalents that I could look up instead in the >>>> device list? >> >>> FWIW, 27S82 is listed in the 1982 IC Master as >> >>> AM27S82M: TTL 1024*8 ROM, 275nS access, OC outputs, 24 pin, 5V supply >> >>> So half the size of a 2716. >>> The book lists PROMs and ROMs separately, so it was probably mask-programmed. >>> (M would be for mil temp going by other AMD numbers.) >> >> I would think bipolar PROM since rest of the AMD 27S series were bipolar PROMs. I will check this weekend if I can find an old AMD databook. > > The ref did specify it as TTL, so yes, bipolar. Oh, as for being PROM vs ROM, I'm just going by the way things are listed in the ref. It lists different 27Sxx devices under PROM vs ROM, for example 27S180, 27S181 are 1024*8 listed under PROM, but 27S80, 27S81, 27S82, 27S83 are 1024*8 listed under ROM. It's possible they're mis-listed of course, but manufacturers often did make equivalent devices as both fusible and mask, I don't know what AMD did for series names in that regard. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Fri Dec 1 14:57:17 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 21:57:17 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December Message-ID: <7b1d1429-c8b4-b315-504f-3cd6eb175465@gmail.com> Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following? It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings. I took the time to provide some details (that previously may have been missing) I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off to the recycler. ---- tape drives and media (pictures: , , , , , ) -- Ultrium (Linear Tape Open) - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks?Ultrium 920 (LTO-3)?external ? half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination - Quantum LTO-3?internal half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE ? with auto-termination - Seagate Viper 200?LTO-1 external full-height tape drive SCSI ? U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination - Hewlett-Packard, Quantum, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. ? LTO-{1,2,3} data and cleaning tape catridges, many new and ? unused, many available?(see pictures) -- Digital Data Storage - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72?(DDS-5) internal tape drive ? SCSI U320 LVD/SE (possibly with auto-termination; not fully ? sure, need to check) - Sony SDT-D11000?DAT40?(DDS-4) external tape drive, SCSI ? (LVD?/)SE - Hewlett-Packard?StorageWorks?DAT160?(DDS-6) data and cleaning ? tapes, several tapes, nearly all new and unused - Hewlett-Packard?StorageWorks?DAT72?(DDS-5) data and cleaning ? tapes, several boxes, 2~3, largely new and unused - Hewlett-Packard, Compaq, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. ? DDS-{1,2,3,4} data and cleaning tape cartridges, various ? types, many available (see pictures) ---- computer components (multi-platform, cross-architecture) - Hewlett-Packard-branded S2io/Exar/Neterion 10Gbit?(10GBASE- ? SR) PCI-X NICs, including 850nm transceivers, supported on ? many platforms (including Windows, IRIX and OpenVMS), around ? 5 available - Hewlett-Packard, LSI, etc. PCI/-X adapters, e.g.: SCSI, FC, ? FC/SCSI duo (hybrid), etc. HBAs, NICs, IEEE-1394a (FireWire/ ? i.Link)?adapters and more, various types and (re)brandings ---- software -- operating system - Hewlett-Packard?OpenVMS?(I64) Open Source Tools?(2010) ? CD-ROM, in original sleeve - Hewlett-Packard?Tru64?UNIX V5.1B Documentation?(2010) ? CD-ROM, in original sleeve - Hewlett-Packard?Tru64?UNIX NHD-7?(New Hardware Delivery) ? kit (2010), in original packaging (unopened), primarily ? intended for e.g. HP AlphaStation/AlphaServer?DS15/A - Compaq?OpenVMS?Alpha V7.2?(1999) CD-ROM, disc 1 of 2, ? in sleeve - Compaq?OpenVMS?Alpha V7.2 & V7.2-1 System Crash Mandatory ? Update?(1999) CD-ROM, in sleeve - Microsoft?Windows?7 Home Premium, NL (Dutch), licenses ? included, 2 available - Microsoft?Windows?XP Pro?SP2b, NL (Dutch), OEM, only ? media (no license) -- applications - Frame?(later Adobe) FrameMaker?for SunOS/Solaris, ? advanced typesetting software, boxed with documentation ? and installation media - Sybase Database?for OpenVMS?(Alpha), in original jewel ? case - Syntax TotalNET Advanced Server?for SunOS/Solaris(?), ? boxed - VITec RasterFLEX?(v4.0) for SunOS/Solaris, boxed ? (pictures: , , ) - Sega DreamKey, internet web browser software(?) for ? Sega Dreamcast, in original jewel case ---- books(mostly English and some Dutch) - various (see picture: ), on computing/ ? computers, computer architectures (e.g. MC68000),the ? history of IBM, also computer graphics, covering software ? like Maya (v2.5), Houdini?(v6~8) and LightWave?3D (v5.5~5.6), ? etc. ---- computer input devices and other peripherals - Wacom serial?(perhaps also ADB and USB, need to check) ? digitizer tablets, in various sizes - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used ---- Cardbus adapters - Sitecom USB 2.0, providing 2 ports - SIIG IEEE-1394a FireWire ---- Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters - Keyspan Mac Serial Adapter (to USB) - Griffin iMate?ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one ? includes the original packaging ---- serial cables and converters - DeLock, generic, etc. DB9, DB25 and conversion cables, ? including straight-through and 'null-modem' varieties, ? fairly large amount available ---- SCSI, SAS/S-ATA and FC cabling - multi-vendor internal SAS to S-ATA cables, several, ? including in unopened packages - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables, ? several available - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI terminators, ? mainly LVD/SE (incl. UW and U320) but also HVD, both ? active and passive, several available - multi-vendor LC (LC to LC) fiber-optical cables ? (contact me about OM type), several available and in ? various lengths ---- PCs and components - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB ? in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM ? x346 server at the time - ASUS M8N-E, with AMD Athlon64?X2 CPU, 8GB DDR2 RAM and ? documents - ASUS M2N-E SLI, with AMD Athlon64?X2 CPU, 4GB DDR2 RAM ? and documents - Cooler Master?600W (AT) PSU - Cooler Master(?) 460W (AT) PSU ---- SGI (MIPS-powered) IRIX systems and components - SGI?Tezro &?O3x0?HDD?sled/tray (Intel type), with ? optional blanking/airflow plastic included, at least 1 ? (maybe 2, need to check) - SGI DMediaPro DM10-compatible IEEE-1394a FireWire ? (3.3V) PCI card with cables, SGI DMediaPro?DM10 manual, ? etc., boxed - SGI IMPACT?(MGRAS)?4MB TRAM module, possibly defective -- not really interested in selling, but in theory for ?? sale (depending on the offer, I might be persuaded) - SGI Indigo??IMPACT/10000, with 195MHz MIPS R10000 CPU, ? 1GB RAM, High IMPACT?plus 4MB TRAM, IMPACT Video plus ? VBOB, Plextor CD-ROM?drive, intact bezel, lockbar ? included, etc. - SGI O2, with 400MHz MIPS R12000 CPU, 1GB RAM, digital ? A/V (AV2) module, Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, intact bezel, ? etc. ---- general 19" rack equipment - general 1U fan (low-noise ventilator) unit, with ? temperature monitoring & control - general rack trays (vented), at least one (possibly ? more) - general rack mounting bars, cable managers and other ? accessories - general mounting fasteners (RM mounting blocks and ? screws) ---- video games and peripherals - Nintendo Super Scope?for Super NES?(Nintendo ? Entertainment System), PAL/EUR region, including ? cartridge and documentation ---- graphics monitors, cables and accessories - Dell UltraSharp?U2412M, 24" IPS LCD monitors, 1~2 ? available - ATEN USB & VGA (HD15) KVMs, with documentation, about ? 2~3 available - SGI 13W3 (HD13W3 to HD13W3) cable, about 2?~3 meters ? in length - generic short DVI-D cables (around ~0.5 meters / ? ~1.6 foot), ideal for SGI VBOB plus DM5 with DM2/DM3 - generic component monitor cables, one with RCA (tulip) ? and another with BNC cabling - generic DVI-D splitters (not sure if I still have ? them, I need to check) ---- video equipment - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V20L1D, 22" LCD, full HD, ? 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format ? broadcast monitor, with lots of built-in I/O (HD ? component, HD-SDI, HDCP-capable DVI, composite video, ? etc.), with a few dead pixels - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V1710CG, 17" CRT, full HD, ? 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format ? broadcast monitor, with various input modules ? (including SD-, HD-SDI and HD component, also available ? individually, in original boxes) - Gefen 1080p Scaler for HDMI, boxed, professional-grade ? digital video scaler (picture: ) - Miranda ASD-271p, professional analog-to-digital A/V ? signal converter, including external PSU, ?as-is? ? (untested, or not recently tested) - generic HDMI to 3G/HD-SDI (also SD-SDI capable) bridge - generic ~20 meter / ~66 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cable - DeLock ~10 meter / ~33 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cables, ? two available and one in the original packaging - DeLock and generic ~0.5~1 meter / ~1.6 foot, HD/3G/+ ? -SDI BNC cables, around 3~5 available - generic and various other lengths of HD/3G/+-SDI BNC ? cables, several available, some in original packaging - generic 75? BNC terminators for SDI, many available ---- photo-/cinematographic equipment -- cameras - Sony HDR-FX1000E, HD video camera (3-CMOS), with ? optional accessories, like large Sony carrying bag ? (pictures: ) - Blackmagic (Design) Pocket Cinema Camera?(BMPCC), RAW ? & 10-bit ProRES, full HD video camera, in original box, plus optional accessories -- BMPCC accessories: ?- BMPCC batteries, multiple of Blackmagic Design and one ?? of?Nikon?(original) - Kamerar QV-1 viewfinder magnifier (loupe) - ...and more (contact me) (pictures for all of the above and some of the below: ) -- lenses and adapters - Panasonic Lumix G?II 14mm ?/2.5?prime MFT (Micro Four ? Thirds) lens - Panasonic?Lumix G X Vario 14-42mm ?/3.5-5.6?Power- ? O.I.S. pancake electronic zoom MFT lens - Panasonic Lumix 45-200mm ?/4-5.6 Mega-O.I.S. zoom ? MFT lens - Metabones Speed Booster?Nikon F/G to MFT (focal ? reduction) lens mount adapter - other MFT lens mount adapters (including with focal ? reduction), see pictures - Samyang 16mm T/2.2 VDSLR?Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens - Sigma EX DG 17-50mm ?/2.8 Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens - KMZ Jupiter-8?50mm ?/2 Leica M39 35mm full-frame lens - Sigma Art DN 013 60mm ?/2.8 E-mount APS-C lens - Manfrotto 700RC2?lightweight video monopod/tripod head - Manfrotto 585-1 ModoSteady 3-in-1, compact stabilizer ? rig ---- audio equipment - Music Group/Behringer?Ultra-Match?SRC-9624, 96KHz ? 24-bit audio?interface, barely used There might be more, but this is it for now. Not all is directly related to computers, but most of it has been used together with them, or can be used together with them or to document/conserve retro systems. Everything is located in the Netherlands. ?- MG From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Dec 1 19:16:19 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 01 Dec 2017 20:16:19 -0500 Subject: Altair Peripheral Emulator - site recovered Message-ID: All ? ??????????????? For those interested in APE (the Altair Peripheral Emulator by Frank Barberis), I have recovered the site (with his permission) and Jay has agreed to host it on Classiccmp (thank you Jay!). It can be accessed at http://ape.classiccmp.org. ??????????????? No development has been done on it since 2014 when the original Comcast site went dark. Enjoy Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com Sat Dec 2 03:33:45 2017 From: camiel.vanderhoeven at vmssoftware.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 10:33:45 +0100 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/30/17, 9:26 PM, "cctech on behalf of william degnan via cctech" wrote: >I have a microvax set up with VMS 5, running MULTINET (and decnet >locally). The server has a FQDN and after a while being exposed to the >WWW someone out there started using the server as an SMTP relay. I can >disable and clear the queue, but I'd like to block entirely this from >happening in the first place. I'd like to learn more about how this >happens in VMS. > >Anyone have had this same problem before? I realize back when VMS 5 was >current it was not so much of an issue, but today it is. I am working on >a >solution. I can envision a few ways including blocking the smtp relay >port >from the firewall, but if possible I'd like to set up a VMS Multinet >solution as a learning exercise. > >I am open to suggestions, and once I find the solution I'll post it. > >I understand that this kind of thing is not cookie cutter, there are >different levels one could address something like this. I have a comcast >business router, and one of the 5 IPs I have is NAT assigned to the >internal 10.1.10 port of the microvax. > >This is the same machine I wrote about previously as with then, thanks for >your help. I find the best way to learn is on the actual hardware warts >and all. > >Bill Look at the SMTP_SERVER_REJECT file example here: http://www.process.com/docs/multinet5_4/admin_guide/Ch15.htm. It?s a set of rules that decide whether a message gets rejected (rule ending in ?y?) or let through (rule ending in ?n?). You?d normally set this up to first let through those emails you want, then reject everything else at the end of the rules file. > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Dec 2 03:50:33 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 02 Dec 2017 09:50:33 +0000 (WET) Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01QM5ZBK9RAS002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> On 11/30/17, 9:26 PM, "cctech on behalf of william degnan via cctech" wrote: > > >I have a microvax set up with VMS 5, running MULTINET (and decnet > >locally). The server has a FQDN and after a while being exposed to the > >WWW someone out there started using the server as an SMTP relay. I can > >disable and clear the queue, but I'd like to block entirely this from > >happening in the first place. I'd like to learn more about how this > >happens in VMS. > > > >Anyone have had this same problem before? I realize back when VMS 5 was > >current it was not so much of an issue, but today it is. I am working on > >a > >solution. I can envision a few ways including blocking the smtp relay > >port > >from the firewall, but if possible I'd like to set up a VMS Multinet > >solution as a learning exercise. > > > >I am open to suggestions, and once I find the solution I'll post it. > > > >I understand that this kind of thing is not cookie cutter, there are > >different levels one could address something like this. I have a comcast > >business router, and one of the 5 IPs I have is NAT assigned to the > >internal 10.1.10 port of the microvax. > > > >This is the same machine I wrote about previously as with then, thanks for > >your help. I find the best way to learn is on the actual hardware warts > >and all. > > > >Bill > > Look at the SMTP_SERVER_REJECT file example here: > http://www.process.com/docs/multinet5_4/admin_guide/Ch15.htm. > It?s a set of rules that decide whether a message gets rejected (rule > ending in ?y?) or let through (rule ending in ?n?). You?d normally set > this up to first let through those emails you want, then reject everything > else at the end of the rules file. > I am not sure whether this method will work on the clearly elderly but unspecified version of Multinet in use here. I should also have suggested checking whether there are other TCP/IP services running that may have issues. DNS in particular would be open to very serious abuse affecting lots of innocent third parties on the internet if not brought up to current patchlevels. NTP also springs to mind. The easiest way to deal with all these issues comprehensively would probably be to update the machine to the current version of Multinet (5.5). This is not hard to do and is covered by the Multinet hobbyist license. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From dougatdoughq at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 04:48:26 2017 From: dougatdoughq at gmail.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 21:48:26 +1100 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Camiel, Without sounding super negative (my day job as a security consultant let's me do that enough...) I would be especially wary of connecting anything with a 10 year old stack to the modern internet. The range of automatic attacks based on what the state of the OS was when it was last patched is staggering. Can you NAT it behind something to not expose it directly? Can you run proxies in front of it? Doug On 2 Dec. 2017 8:34 pm, "Camiel Vanderhoeven via cctech" < cctech at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/30/17, 9:26 PM, "cctech on behalf of william degnan via cctech" > wrote: > > > >I have a microvax set up with VMS 5, running MULTINET (and decnet > >locally). The server has a FQDN and after a while being exposed to the > >WWW someone out there started using the server as an SMTP relay. I can > >disable and clear the queue, but I'd like to block entirely this from > >happening in the first place. I'd like to learn more about how this > >happens in VMS. > > > >Anyone have had this same problem before? I realize back when VMS 5 was > >current it was not so much of an issue, but today it is. I am working on > >a > >solution. I can envision a few ways including blocking the smtp relay > >port > >from the firewall, but if possible I'd like to set up a VMS Multinet > >solution as a learning exercise. > > > >I am open to suggestions, and once I find the solution I'll post it. > > > >I understand that this kind of thing is not cookie cutter, there are > >different levels one could address something like this. I have a comcast > >business router, and one of the 5 IPs I have is NAT assigned to the > >internal 10.1.10 port of the microvax. > > > >This is the same machine I wrote about previously as with then, thanks for > >your help. I find the best way to learn is on the actual hardware warts > >and all. > > > >Bill > > Look at the SMTP_SERVER_REJECT file example here: > http://www.process.com/docs/multinet5_4/admin_guide/Ch15.htm. > It?s a set of rules that decide whether a message gets rejected (rule > ending in ?y?) or let through (rule ending in ?n?). You?d normally set > this up to first let through those emails you want, then reject everything > else at the end of the rules file. > > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Dec 2 11:17:39 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 09:17:39 -0800 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I bought my Teletype 37 from them. It was shown as in pretty bad shape and AS-IS. When I showed them a few pictures of the insides where parts had been stripped, just to say maybe a few more pictures would have been helpful. They send me a partial refund. I didn't even ask for it. My biggest complaint, IM ON THE LEFT COAST. Said loudly in sadness :-) BTW The 'weird' Tek stuff is from their 80's microprocessor development system (MDS) division. It was a PDP 11/23 based setup. -pete On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:36 AM, systems_glitch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I know a few of us have bought from them before, my experiences have been > positive. I think the last thing I bought was a Teletype Model 33 ASR that > fell on its face, seller made a pretty good deal as it was local pick-up > and essentially it was a parts bucket at that point. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > There is a seller "potomacestore" that lists a number of items in various > > condition. > > > > A HP9866A. very nice if you have the HP9830A but no printer! > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680 > > > > A weird Tektronix 8 inch drive thing. The drive resembles the Memorex 651 > > drives, but could something else. But what is it? The photos are not very > > good. > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523 > > > > > > A decent looking Tektronix 4112 terminal: > > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012 > > > > > > And some other HP, tektronix stuff. > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 2 17:29:43 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:29:43 -0500 Subject: Writeup on Preventing Third-party SMTP Relay MULTINET Message-ID: If anyone is interested, I documented a fairly easy way to prevent third party SMTP relaying with MULTINET 4.1 on a VMS 5 MicroVAX. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=708 I did cheat a little...I set up an email alias on my modern mail server to forward messages to a single email address on the VAX. This was necessary because otherwise I'd have to have added the mail host ID of every mail server permitted to send email to users on the VAX. Also, I will have to create an alias on the modern mail server for every VAX user who wanted to get mail. I agree ultimately that MULTINET email is too limited, but for my purposes I am satisfied. It's just for the learning experience. Bill From kevenm at 3kranger.com Sat Dec 2 20:48:44 2017 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 19:48:44 -0700 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9C896CC57B3C4FB0B36EE954ED86B55A@ranger1> Then there is this http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ WRPN is an HP16C program, first for (I think) Windows, and also on Android. I use both phone and Windows versions; besides my original 16C, when I'm at my desk. Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis via cctalk" To: "CCtalk" Sent: Sat 02 Dec 2017 05:31 PM Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > Today, I picked up my trusty HP16C that's been with me through thick and > thin and noticed a black splotch extending across about half the > display. This is with the power off. > > Is the LCD display failing? Can it be repaired? This thing has been a > a sidekick of my for a very long time and I'd hate to see it go. > > Anyone know? > > --Chuck > From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Dec 2 20:53:57 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 18:53:57 -0800 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have a partial roll but it been outside inside an old hard copy unit for about 5 years. I need reason you don't see them is they really do have quite a bit if silver in them. Even in 1976 my employer at the time didn't care and was doing pretty well of the scrap. On Dec 2, 2017 6:08 PM, "Randy Dawson via cctalk" wrote: I considered the Tektronix 4051 hardcopy unit, but my search turned up zilch for the paper (3M Dry Silver type) Price is right, the printer looks great, but no source for the paper that I can find. randy ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of systems_glitch via cctalk Sent: Saturday, December 2, 2017 7:36 AM To: Mattis Lind; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Ebay listings from potomacstore I know a few of us have bought from them before, my experiences have been positive. I think the last thing I bought was a Teletype Model 33 ASR that fell on its face, seller made a pretty good deal as it was local pick-up and essentially it was a parts bucket at that point. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 7:28 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > There is a seller "potomacestore" that lists a number of items in various > condition. > > A HP9866A. very nice if you have the HP9830A but no printer! > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/401341724680-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]< https://www.ebay.com/itm/401341724680> VINTAGE HP 9866A Uppercase 5x7 Dot Matrix Printer for HP 9830A Calculator | eBay www.ebay.com Designed For use with HP 9830A Calculator. Uppercase 5x7 dot cell matrix. Print speed of 250 lines per minute. Evaluated and Non-Functioning, R2/Ready for Repair: The equipment must be evaluated prior to sale to ensure that the resale value will exceed the cost of repairs, and that the equipment is capable of being repaired. | eBay! > > A weird Tektronix 8 inch drive thing. The drive resembles the Memorex 651 > drives, but could something else. But what is it? The photos are not very > good. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/192119338523-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]< https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523> Vintage Tektronix Computer Dual 8 Inch Floppy Drive | eBay< https://www.ebay.com/itm/192119338523> www.ebay.com Did not have test media or interface to conduct further tests. Key functions tested Potomac eCycle is certified to the R2/RIOS standard which was created specifically for the Electronics Recyling industry to promote Environmental, Health and Safety. | eBay! > > > A decent looking Tektronix 4112 terminal: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012 [http://i.ebayimg.com/images/i/401325451012-0-1/s-l1000.jpg]< https://www.ebay.com/itm/401325451012> VINTAGE Tektronix 4112A 15 In. Computer Display Terminal w/RS-232C Interface | eBay www.ebay.com RS-232C Interface. Evaluated and Non-Functioning, R2/Ready for Repair: The equipment must be evaluated prior to sale to ensure that the resale value will exceed the cost of repairs, and that the equipment is capable of being repaired. | eBay! > > > And some other HP, tektronix stuff. > From pete at petelancashire.com Sat Dec 2 22:30:51 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sat, 2 Dec 2017 20:30:51 -0800 Subject: Ebay listings from potomacstore In-Reply-To: <5A237043.30600@pico-systems.com> References: <5A237043.30600@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I would photocopy them within a few days of them. The paper was still available into the late 80's but the Hunt brothers with the Silver scam pretty much killed it. If you kept the printouts in a binder/drawer they would last quite a long time. I think I still have some. The 2nd generation Tek printers did a pretty good job of keeping clean, but the first one did need quite regular cleaning. I somewhat remember the small but I guess being in my 20's it didn't bother me that much :-) Where out HCU was, there was a lot of ventilation so it never got that bad. -pete On Sat, Dec 2, 2017 at 7:32 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > On 12/02/2017 08:08 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > >> I considered the Tektronix 4051 hardcopy unit, but my search turned up >> zilch for the paper (3M Dry Silver type) >> >> >> Price is right, the printer looks great, but no source for the paper that >> I can find. >> >> >> >> Oh, man! That stuff hasn't been made since about 1974 or so, and was > absolutely HORRIBLE stuff then. > The thermal developer emitted nasty smells and filled the whole unit with > white crystals. The paper turned brown after a few weeks exposure to room > lights. So, good for short-term copies only. > > Jon > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 3 10:28:33 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 03 Dec 2017 16:28:33 +0000 Subject: Any difference between VAX Q-bus and PDP-11 Q-bus cards? Message-ID: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. Thanks, Aaron. From peter at rittwage.com Sun Dec 3 20:32:35 2017 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:32:35 -0500 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I have a microvax set up with VMS 5, running MULTINET (and decnet > locally). The server has a FQDN and after a while being exposed to the > WWW someone out there started using the server as an SMTP relay. I can > disable and clear the queue, but I'd like to block entirely this from > happening in the first place. I'd like to learn more about how this > happens in VMS. > > Anyone have had this same problem before? I realize back when VMS 5 was > current it was not so much of an issue, but today it is. I am working on > a > solution. I can envision a few ways including blocking the smtp relay > port > from the firewall, but if possible I'd like to set up a VMS Multinet > solution as a learning exercise. > > I am open to suggestions, and once I find the solution I'll post it. > > I understand that this kind of thing is not cookie cutter, there are > different levels one could address something like this. I have a comcast > business router, and one of the 5 IPs I have is NAT assigned to the > internal 10.1.10 port of the microvax. > > This is the same machine I wrote about previously as with then, thanks for > your help. I find the best way to learn is on the actual hardware warts > and all. > > Bill > You should never use one-to-one NAT like that. You should only forward the ports you need from the firewall to your server. In this case, I assume you only need tcp/23 for telnet from the outside? -- Pete Rittwage From fcoffey at misernet.net Mon Dec 4 07:37:31 2017 From: fcoffey at misernet.net (Fred) Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 08:37:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 2 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 2 Dec 2017, cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 13 > Date: Fri, 1 Dec 2017 20:39:14 -0500 > From: william degnan > Thanks I think this is what I need, just disable smtp within MULTINET. As > I said in my OP I prefer a VMS or MULTINET solution free of modern hardware > if possible, now that I know what is possible. I was curious to learn I also think, depending on the version of Multinet you are running it should have the option to disable relaying. I know before I installed PMDF (and used Multinet) I was able to do this. process.com (makers of Multinet and PMDF) have really good documentation on their website that you should be able to find the info you seek. In lieu of that, if you're feeling adventerous ... I think I remember you mentioning you were running VMS 5. Would PMDF run on that? (when my Alpha is turned on, currently off as it needs a fan or two) I run PMDF on my Alpha DS10 running OpenVMS 8.3 and I am able to block relaying. Fred From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Tue Dec 5 09:16:19 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Tue, 05 Dec 2017 15:16:19 +0000 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? Message-ID: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. Thanks, Aaron. From rtomek at ceti.pl Wed Dec 6 09:26:52 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 16:26:52 +0100 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171206152651.GB13366@tau1.ceti.pl> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:32:35PM -0500, Pete Rittwage via cctech wrote: [...] > > You should never use one-to-one NAT like that. You should only forward the > ports you need from the firewall to your server. In this case, I assume > you only need tcp/23 for telnet from the outside? Just in case: myself, I would rather ssh to firewall, and only from there telnet to VAX. Unless all your computers behind firewall are only for fun and you are ok to have any kind of stuff installed there from anywhere in a world. Some could say to this that VMS is hard to get in because ... (fill in your preferred reaason) ... , and I would answer that one more fence does not hurt, whereas one less might. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Dec 6 12:03:48 2017 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:03:48 -0800 Subject: PDP8 ALGOL In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> From: Michael Thompson via cctalk: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:59 PM > The paper tape images are here: > http://www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp8/papertapeImages/set3/ > > The RICM also has an original set of the DECUS 8-213 ALGOL paper tapes, but > they are different from the ones on Bitsavers. I need to make images of > these tapes. When you do, I can perhaps help with the differences, if they are not too major. > Students at the UMN are trying to get ALGOL to run on their PDP-12 so they > can run some benchmarking software. > > We haven't been able to get DECUS 8-213 ALGOL working. Any help would be > appreciated. I got to the "OPT-" prompt, but after I enter "R", the simulation hangs, repeatedly taking an un-serviced interrupt. It would be helpful to know which of the seven images are re-initialization or patches, and which are part of the compiler and which the runtime. Vince From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 12:07:55 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 10:07:55 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> Message-ID: <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> On 12/03/2017 10:00 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > That sounds like the original version with the separate logic module. > > I think the display is the same between the 2 versions. I am also > pretty sure the same display is used in all the old Voyagers (there > are annunciators on it that are not used on some models, but they > are still there on the display of that model). AFAIK the difference > between the models is the firmware. Please forgive the delayed response--for some reason, the CCTalk server belched up a bunch of messages dating from 30 November onward today. I've read a bit on the HPMuseum forums that indicate that early displays aren't interchangeable with later ones--the later ones apparently use a finer-pitch connector. My own HP 16C has a serial number beginning with 2228A..., which I believe puts its date of manufacture in 1982, so my fingers are crossed to see if the "old" HP12C that I picked up on eBay is even close in terms of display connections. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:10:26 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:10:26 +0000 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 6:07 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/03/2017 10:00 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> That sounds like the original version with the separate logic module. >> >> I think the display is the same between the 2 versions. I am also >> pretty sure the same display is used in all the old Voyagers (there >> are annunciators on it that are not used on some models, but they >> are still there on the display of that model). AFAIK the difference >> between the models is the firmware. > > Please forgive the delayed response--for some reason, the CCTalk server > belched up a bunch of messages dating from 30 November onward today. > > I've read a bit on the HPMuseum forums that indicate that early displays > aren't interchangeable with later ones--the later ones apparently use a > finer-pitch connector. 'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over. -tony From mgariboldi at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 12:59:09 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:59:09 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: My apologies for the possible double-mailing, it looks like something went wrong, either with Gmail, my ISP or the mailinglist software, as my message didn't show up (or only later, after I had posted through the ?proper? web-based Gmail). - MG From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 14:53:35 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 12:53:35 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> On 12/06/2017 10:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > 'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very > different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers > used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over. Feh, the "old" HP12C that I got for $15 is only 30 years old. My HP16C is 35 years old. The innards between the two are completely different. My HP16C comes wrapped in antistatic plastic and has what looks to be a hand-wired axial resistor and a "blob" tantalum cap hand-soldered in near the battery holder. The display is on a separate board connected via a flex cable labeled "HP Sheldahl USA 1130-0504. The 12C is all on a single PCB, with no ESD wrap. Miles apart. ------------------- So it boils down to finding a REALLY old 12C and hoping that it's compatible with my 16C in terms of parts or putting everything back together and buying the Swiss clone, which will, after all is said and done, set me back $200. I don't fancy that there's much hope in finding a 35 year old 12C for sale at a reasonable price--and the display will still be very old. Sigh, Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 15:22:25 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 17:22:25 -0400 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> Message-ID: I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C. Paul. On 2017-12-06 4:53 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/06/2017 10:10 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> 'Later' here might mean the modern versions of the 12C, which is very >> different. I thought both types of construction of the original Voyagers >> used the same display but I must admit I have never swapped them over. > Feh, the "old" HP12C that I got for $15 is only 30 years old. My HP16C > is 35 years old. The innards between the two are completely different. > > My HP16C comes wrapped in antistatic plastic and has what looks to be a > hand-wired axial resistor and a "blob" tantalum cap hand-soldered in > near the battery holder. The display is on a separate board connected > via a flex cable labeled "HP Sheldahl USA 1130-0504. > > The 12C is all on a single PCB, with no ESD wrap. Miles apart. > ------------------- > So it boils down to finding a REALLY old 12C and hoping that it's > compatible with my 16C in terms of parts or putting everything back > together and buying the Swiss clone, which will, after all is said and > done, set me back $200. > > I don't fancy that there's much hope in finding a 35 year old 12C for > sale at a reasonable price--and the display will still be very old. > > Sigh, > Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 16:11:16 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 14:11:16 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> On 12/06/2017 01:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the > donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another > MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the > version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C. My lovely wife remembered that she had a 12C when she was taking some accounting classes (part of an unused Master of Public Administration degree she has). We found it--still in its old box, serial number 2316A... We're in business. Now, how does one remove the display from one board and transplant it the other? Is it as simple as bending back the LCD frame tabs? Thanks, Chuck From sbolton at bfree.on.ca Wed Dec 6 16:23:49 2017 From: sbolton at bfree.on.ca (Syd Bolton) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 17:23:49 -0500 Subject: Reminder about Vintage Computer Calendars Message-ID: <5e43721f8ff0e5664634991447ff14bd@bfree.on.ca> To everyone who ordered the amazing vintage computer calendars from us recently - thank you! I trust everyone has received theirs by now from the first round. We still have a few left for those interested! Go the page below: http://pcmuseum.ca/shop.asp If you don't want to use PayPal, we have alternative payment methods available. Thanks for your support--hope everyone has a great holiday season! From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 16:51:44 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:51:44 -0400 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> Ok I am guessing you have figured out how to take the back off? (screws under the rubber feet) with the calculator upside down and the display away from you there is a connector at the top right that connects the keyboard to the electronics on the back of the display carefully? lift that? flexible cable over the posts.? With the back off the display module is big held in by four foam blocks that fit over the plastic posts, gently lift the display module up and they will come with it.? The part you are going to change is just the glass of the display it is held in place by a metal frame that has tabs folded over.? You can try to save the thin plastic anti static wrap but it is held on with the glue from hell so you will probably end up cutting some of it away.? The glass part of the display is connected to the circuit board under it by elastomer block, keep them clean any debris on them will probably result in a segment that does not work.? Swap the refold the tabs on the metal frame and reassemble.? You will note that on inside of the back of the display there are hollow posts that fit over post at the keyboard connector and display to test it before putting it all back together, put batteries in, and hold the keyboard connector in place with your finger. Paul. On 2017-12-06 6:11 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/06/2017 01:22 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> I just looked back at the archives of the hpmuseum.org site and the >> donor 12C that the display came from for the 16C I repaired for another >> MoHPC member had a serial number that began with 2224A and was the >> version with the innards wrapped in black plastic like your 16C. > My lovely wife remembered that she had a 12C when she was taking some > accounting classes (part of an unused Master of Public Administration > degree she has). We found it--still in its old box, serial number > 2316A... We're in business. > > Now, how does one remove the display from one board and transplant it > the other? Is it as simple as bending back the LCD frame tabs? > > Thanks, > Chuck > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 17:27:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:27:43 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> On 12/06/2017 02:51 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Ok I am guessing you have figured out how to take the back off? (screws > under the rubber feet) with the calculator upside down and the display > away from you there is a connector at the top right that connects the > keyboard to the electronics on the back of the display carefully? lift > that? flexible cable over the posts.? With the back off the display > module is big held in by four foam blocks that fit over the plastic > posts, gently lift the display module up and they will come with it.? > The part you are going to change is just the glass of the display it is > held in place by a metal frame that has tabs folded over.? You can try > to save the thin plastic anti static wrap but it is held on with the > glue from hell so you will probably end up cutting some of it away.? The > glass part of the display is connected to the circuit board under it by > elastomer block, keep them clean any debris on them will probably result > in a segment that does not work.? Swap the refold the tabs on the metal > frame and reassemble.? You will note that on inside of the back of the > display there are hollow posts that fit over post at the keyboard > connector and display to test it before putting it all back together, > put batteries in, and hold the keyboard connector in place with your > finger. Okay, as a test, I swapped the display board from the 15C to my 16C, so I have a working 15C with mislabeled keys. :) The black plastic over the display/brains board is indeed held on with the glue from hell. I've slit it with an Xacto knife and gently scraped as much of it off as I could with a small ABS scraper. At least now, I can see the LCD frame tabs. I'm going to take a small flat-bladed screwdriver and bend them away to release the LCD. Stay tuned... --Chuck From classiccmp at philpem.me.uk Wed Dec 6 19:29:29 2017 From: classiccmp at philpem.me.uk (Philip Pemberton) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 01:29:29 +0000 Subject: Kodak Diconix 150plus - looking for info In-Reply-To: <8a69a499-9246-bc3b-e4e7-ef658e17251b@philpem.me.uk> References: <8a69a499-9246-bc3b-e4e7-ef658e17251b@philpem.me.uk> Message-ID: <10c71404-ceb9-c001-e714-e2fe242e492b@philpem.me.uk> On 30/11/17 19:46, Philip Pemberton via cctalk wrote: > It looks like the DIP switches are the same as the 150 - William Degnan > posted a link to those. Update -- the DIP switch settings are *not* the same as the 150. I finally found the 150 Plus settings in an old Usenet post: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!search/diconix$20150$2B$20dip$20switch/comp.sys.laptops/5o5yNBJzlDU/hynUFXHRvkIJ Copied below for the benefit of anyone who finds one of these printers and decides to get it working... It does work rather well with 8.5x11 listing paper with perforation-skip enabled! Very nice little thing to use with old DOS radio programming tools (the sort which poke the printer port directly and bypass print-to-file TSRs). Power supply, as I said earlier, is 9VDC 1A centre-negative. Emulation modes are (apparently) Epson FX-85 and IBM ProPrinter. Graphics 192x192dpi, max print width is 7.1 inches. The "expanded" graphics mode switch apparently sets the graphics resolution -- "normal mode" increases resolution by about 25%, shrinking images in the X axis. Might be useful if the 7.1in print width causes print to clip against the edge. Certainly a neat little machine. > From: jon... at ibm.net (Jonathan Edwards) > Subject: Re: ??_Diconix 150 printer power supply_?? > Date: 1995/08/19 > Message-ID: <4155l7$3dkp at news-s02.ny.us.ibm.net>#1/1 > X-Deja-AN: 108478659 > references: > reply-to: jon... at ibm.net (Jonathan Edwards) > newsgroups: comp.sys.laptops > > In , gr... at galaxy.nsc.com (Paul Grohe) writes: >>In article , gr... at galaxy.nsc.com >>says... >>> >>>What is the voltage/current specs of the >>>Kodak-Diconix 150 portable printer power supply? >> > [...] >>Next question, What are the dip switch settings?? I have the >>parallel version (I assume they are for the serial version). > > From the "Fast Track Operator's Guide": > > "Both parallel and serial versions of the 150 Plus have a main > package of switches (Panel A) located inside the printer near > the cartidge's home position. > > "Serial versions of the printer have two additional groups of > switches at the extreme left end of the carriage shaft. > > "Panel A contains 10 switches; switches 1-9 control these printer > functions: > > - carriage return definition > - page length > - compatibility mode > - perforation skip > - IBM character set > - international character sets > - ptich and graphics mode > > Switch 10 is reserved for manufacturing purposes; do not use it. > > Carriage Return Definition (switch 1) > up - carriage return plus line feed > down - carriage return only > > Page Length (switch 2) > up - 12 inches (30.5 cm) > down - 11 inches (28 cm) > > Compatibility Mode (switch 3) > up - IBM > down - Epson > > Perforation Skip Definition (Epson mode only) (switch 4) > up - 1 inch skip > down - no skip > > IBM Character Set (IBM mode only) (switch 4) > up - Set 2 > down - Set 1 > > Characters per Inch/Graphics Mode (switch 9) > up - 10/expanded > down - 12/normal > > Character Set (switches 5-8) > dddd - USA > uddd - France > dudd - Germany > uudd - England > ddud - Denmark 1 > udud - Sweden > duud - Italy > uuud - Spain 1 > dddu - Japan > uddu - Norway > dudu - Denmark 2 > uudu - Spain 2 > dduu - Latin America > uduu - Denmark/Norway > duuu - reserved > uuuu - reserved > > "Serial switches (present only on serial versions of the printer) control > these functions: > > - baud rate > - data length > - parity > - data protocol > - carrier detect signal > - clear to send signal > - data set ready signal > > "Once again, remember that the new settings do not take effect until the > printer is reset; make all changes with power off. > > Panel B has 8 switches; panel C has 3. > > Baud Rate (Panel B) (switches 1-3) > ddd - 9600 1 stop bit > ddu - 4800 1 stop bit > dud - 2400 1 stop bit > duu - 1200 1 stop bit > udd - 600 1 stop bit > udu - 300 1 stop bit > uud - 300 2 stop bits > uuu - 110 2 stop bits > > Data Length (Panel B) (switch 4) > up - 8 bits > down - 7 bits > > Parity (Panel B) (switches 5-6) > dd - none > du - even > ud - odd > > Protocol (Panel B) (switches 7-8) > dd - RDY/BSY > du - XON/XOFF > ud - ETX/ACK > > Carrier Detect Input Signal (Panel C) (switch 1) > up - ignored > down - sensed > > Data Set Ready Input Signal (Panel C) (switch 2) > up - ignored > down - sensed > > Clear to Send Input Signal (Panel C) (switch 3) > up - ignored > down - sensed > -- Phil. classiccmp at philpem.me.uk http://www.philpem.me.uk/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 20:42:33 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 18:42:33 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> Well, I replaced the LCD and was greeted with missing segments. Any suggestions before I throw in the towel? That glue from hell necessitated picking off the black plastic shielding bit by bit with forceps ans a magnifying glass. Really awful stuff. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:00:33 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:00:33 -0400 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.? I have cleaned them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.? If I remember correctly there is not space for you to get them out of alignment. Paul. On 2017-12-06 10:42 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Well, I replaced the LCD and was greeted with missing segments. Any > suggestions before I throw in the towel? > > That glue from hell necessitated picking off the black plastic shielding > bit by bit with forceps ans a magnifying glass. Really awful stuff. > > --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 21:26:44 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 19:26:44 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> Message-ID: <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> On 12/06/2017 07:00 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection > point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.? I have cleaned > them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.? If I remember correctly > there is not space for you to get them out of alignment. I went back over the LCD elastomer and the PCB area with isopropanol and a soft cloth. That damned glue can get everywhere with bits of the ESD "paper"... Bingo. My faithful HP16C is now functional again! Maybe we can put in a few more years together... Thank you all, but especially Paul. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 21:30:56 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:30:56 -0400 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <1032861b-b0cb-70d6-35cb-d24a2d70903e@gmail.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> Message-ID: <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> On 2017-12-06 11:26 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/06/2017 07:00 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: >> Well that usually means that there is contamination at the connection >> point or the sandwich is not clamped tightly enough.? I have cleaned >> them off with alcohol and a lint free cloth.? If I remember correctly >> there is not space for you to get them out of alignment. > I went back over the LCD elastomer and the PCB area with isopropanol and > a soft cloth. That damned glue can get everywhere with bits of the ESD > "paper"... > > Bingo. > > My faithful HP16C is now functional again! Maybe we can put in a few > more years together... > > Thank you all, but especially Paul. > > --Chuck You are welcome glad it is going again it is the very best programmers calculator ever made.? Mine is just a little newer than yours and still going strong.? I bought mine new when taking a 370 assembler course. Paul. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 6 22:05:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 20:05:27 -0800 Subject: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/06/2017 07:30 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: > You are welcome glad it is going again it is the very best programmers > calculator ever made.? Mine is just a little newer than yours and still > going strong.? I bought mine new when taking a 370 assembler course. I bought mine when my TI Programmer died. I did not like that calculator--small LED digits that did a poor job of hex displaying. The thing ate batteries for breakfast, lunch and dinner. For a time, I was involved in systems with long word length (60 (octal)/64 bit (hex)); when we started writing for the ETA 10, that little calculator earned its keep--48-bit *bit* addresses, with indices in bit, byte, halfword (32 bit) and 64-bit words. Calculating addresses by hand was "interesting" and the HP16C made it so much easier. The little thing has stayed on my desk ever since. I can't say that I've used the programmable feature more than a couple of times. I doubt that many bit-banging programmers have, either. It's a shame that HP discontinued it. --Chuck From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Wed Dec 6 15:43:39 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 21:43:39 +0000 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Thanks Glen and Jerry. I think that settled that debate! haha Thanks, Aaron. Glen Slick writes: > An M5976 KZQSA is not MSCP compatible so it wouldn't do any good with a > PDP-11 system. It's really only useful for RRD4x SCSI CD-ROM drives with > VMS on a VAX 4000. > > On Dec 6, 2017 9:47 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" > wrote: > > I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card > (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in > a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying > this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Dec 6 15:33:06 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 13:33:06 -0800 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: An M5976 KZQSA is not MSCP compatible so it wouldn't do any good with a PDP-11 system. It's really only useful for RRD4x SCSI CD-ROM drives with VMS on a VAX 4000. On Dec 6, 2017 9:47 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" wrote: I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. Thanks, Aaron. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Dec 6 20:55:38 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2017 20:55:38 -0600 Subject: Any difference between VAX Q-bus and PDP-11 Q-bus cards? In-Reply-To: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> On 12/03/2017 10:28 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: > I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card > (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in > a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying > this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. > > As long as the PDP supports the 22-bit Q-bus, it should work perfectly. The metal plate can be removed. Jon From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Dec 7 00:43:43 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 07:43:43 +0100 Subject: Any difference between VAX Q-bus and PDP-11 Q-bus cards? In-Reply-To: <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> References: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <14ae58aa-b8c7-4070-90b7-c552f79a2551@e-bbes.com> On 2017-12-07 03:55, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 12/03/2017 10:28 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: >> I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card >> (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in >> a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying >> this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. >> >> > As long as the PDP supports the 22-bit Q-bus, it should work perfectly. I don't now that any OS supports the M5976 on a pdp-11 ... Electrically, you should be OK ... From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 01:45:48 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 23:45:48 -0800 Subject: Any difference between VAX Q-bus and PDP-11 Q-bus cards? In-Reply-To: <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> References: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8fedbcec-0a00-d871-5154-65b74ee8ab51@gmail.com> On 12/6/2017 6:55 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 12/03/2017 10:28 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: >> I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card >> (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in >> a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying >> this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. >> >> > As long as the PDP supports the 22-bit Q-bus, it should work > perfectly.? The metal plate can be removed. > > Jon > The board will probably work in a 22-bit Q-bus, as you say, but only for certain values of "work" -- it won't catch fire or anything, but to the best of my knowledge the M5976 isn't an MSCP device and I don't know that any PDP-11 bootstraps or OSes know how to talk to it.? So unless you want to write a driver for it, it's probably not going to be much use. - Josh From jsw at ieee.org Wed Dec 6 15:36:02 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 15:36:02 -0600 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <71FBCC2A-E098-4CDE-BFDE-E05B2EB1BF72@ieee.org> The metal face on the Q-Bus cards was there as part of the solution to meet FCC (or equivalent) regulations to reduce electrical interference to radio receivers and other devices. If you can physically fit it into a older Qbus backplane and sort out the cabling it should work provided you have the necessary drivers. However, I?m not aware of drivers for the M5976 for most PDP/LSI-11 operating systems. Even for VMS or Ultrix the card is reported to only support specific DEC hardware, even thought is SCSI controller. Jerry > On Dec 5, 2017, at 9:16 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: > > I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card > (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in > a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying > this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. > > Thanks, > > Aaron. > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 6 12:34:51 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2017 13:34:51 -0500 Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:48 AM, Doug Jackson via cctech wrote: > > Camiel, > > Without sounding super negative (my day job as a security consultant let's > me do that enough...) I would be especially wary of connecting anything > with a 10 year old stack to the modern internet. The range of automatic > attacks based on what the state of the OS was when it was last patched is > staggering. That's true to a point. On the other hand, many attacks require that the machine is running on Intel instruction set hardware, and most of them also depend on the OS being Windows. While bugs happen, the level of security competence applied by VMS engineering is quite high compared to the usual "hack it till it no longer crashes" practice seen all too often nowadays. That applies especially to network protocol implementations. If the issue is design defects in the protocol specifications, such as may be found in various revisions of SSL, then having a good OS is not a complete answer. Even there, it can help; for example, I suspect that the "heartbreak" attack on older SSL stacks, if it were operable on VMS, wouldn't get you very far because of OS and instruction set differences. Certainly script kiddy attacks would not work. paul From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Dec 7 05:12:01 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 11:12:01 +0000 (WET) Subject: Preventing VAX running VMS / Multinet from being used as SMTP relay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01QMD33AR9PW002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Dec 2, 2017, at 5:48 AM, Doug Jackson via cctech wrote: > > > > Camiel, > > > > Without sounding super negative (my day job as a security consultant let's > > me do that enough...) I would be especially wary of connecting anything > > with a 10 year old stack to the modern internet. The range of automatic > > attacks based on what the state of the OS was when it was last patched is > > staggering. > > That's true to a point. On the other hand, many attacks require that the > machine is running on Intel instruction set hardware, and most of them also > depend on the OS being Windows. > > While bugs happen, the level of security competence applied by VMS > engineering is quite high compared to the usual "hack it till it no longer > crashes" practice seen all too often nowadays. That applies especially to > network protocol implementations. > > If the issue is design defects in the protocol specifications, such as may > be found in various revisions of SSL, then having a good OS is not a > complete answer. Even there, it can help; for example, I suspect that the > "heartbreak" attack on older SSL stacks, if it were operable on VMS, > wouldn't get you very far because of OS and instruction set differences. > Certainly script kiddy attacks would not work. > Security is very good on VMS, however, the Bind DNS server code for example is dropped more or less as-is into products like TCP/IP Services for VMS and Multinet. This brings in a bunch of vulnerabilities common to all other platforms running this code. Attempting to exploit these vulnerabilities is unlikely to gain any access to the host VMS system they are running on but there is no defence against vulnerabilities which target systems other than the host system over the network with denial of service attacks and there are lots of these vulnerabilities. They are only fixed, worked around or whatever in relatively recent versions of Bind and therefore only in relatively recent versions of TCP/IP Services for VMS and Multinet. Similar issues may well exist with other TCP/IP servers running on VMS. There is no use in thinking that the bad guys will never find my one little old server which runs only occasionally and is tucked away in my corner of the internet either. They can and they will, just like the spammers can sniff out the most obscure open mail relays and they continue to look for them long after any sane person would persist. I see attempts to exploit various kinds of vulnerability all the time on my VMS systems and many would succeed in causing grief to others on the internet if I did not keep an eye on recent vulnerabilities in the TCP/IP software I am running and keep patchlevels up to date. Whatever about vulnerabilities of our classic computer systems themselves, can we please ensure that what is just a hobby for most of us is not inadvertently causing problems for others on the internet? Regards, Peter Coghlan. > paul From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 7 10:50:21 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2017 10:50:21 -0600 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> On 12/06/2017 03:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Thanks Glen and Jerry. > > I think that settled that debate! haha > > Thanks, > Aaron. > > > Glen Slick writes: > >> An M5976 KZQSA is not MSCP compatible so it wouldn't do any good with a >> PDP-11 system. It's really only useful for RRD4x SCSI CD-ROM drives with >> VMS on a VAX 4000. >> >> MSCP is a software protocol. Any device that has a driver available for the PDP-11 operating system you want to use can use that device. Most of the really old disk and tape interfaces were NOT MSCP compatible. We also hacked up some oddball drivers to use old PDP-11-type devices on VAXes. But, yes, if there's no driver to support the interface, then it doesn't really matter if the device is electrically compatible. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 7 11:44:05 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 12:44:05 -0500 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:50 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > > ... > MSCP is a software protocol. Any device that has a driver available for the PDP-11 operating system you want to use can use that device. True with small variations. A sufficiently large disk might not be supported on some OS because the on-disk structure is limited in what device size it can handle. (This applies to RSTS for example.) Some devices use obscure MSCP mechanisms that might not be in all drivers -- for example, the RA80 uses host-based bad block replacement, which is quite a complicated process; I know RSTS supports that but it might be omitted in some other operating systems. Also, in DEC terminology, "supported" doesn't mean "it works in the software" but rather "we stand behind it". That means tested, sold, handled by product support and field service, etc. For example, the RP07 works in RSTS on an 11/70, but it is not "supported". I'd expect the same is true for any number of MSCP or TMSCP devices that were intended to be sold only on VAXen -- they may very well work, but if you had plugged one in on a machine where they aren't supported, DEC would give you no help with any problems. paul From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 08:18:22 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 09:18:22 -0500 Subject: Any difference between VAX Q-bus and PDP-11 Q-bus cards? In-Reply-To: <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> References: <87bmjfn5ce.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A28ADAA.1050402@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <021a5484-52be-d9c5-d60a-1ea457a3fd3a@gmail.com> On 12/06/2017 09:55 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote: > On 12/03/2017 10:28 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctech wrote: >> I'm looking after a VAX 4000 for a friend, which has a SCSI Q-bus card >> (M5976). If the card did not have the large metal face, would it work in >> a Q-bus PDP-11? We are not going to potentially ruin a card by trying >> this, but I am interested to know if this is the case. >> >> > As long as the PDP supports the 22-bit Q-bus, it should work > perfectly.? The metal plate can be removed. > > Jon Aaron, Save the plate though as they are scarce... MicroVAX used Q22.? The thing to be wary of is the Q-bus spec allows for slots ABCD (wide) and also ABAB if its ABAB its easy and no big issues unless....? They can also be ABABAB (hex wide QBUS CORE). Whats that mean... AB is the address, data and control bussed connectors and CD are usually parallel bussed but may have odd voltages or order to the signals for some of the wide cards that (usually RL and Memory) need them.? Its not unusual for a bus to be mixed? like BA123 (uVAXII) where the first 3 or 4 slots are ABCD and the remaining are ABAB. IF the board requires ABCD such as the two board set RLV11 its important as the two board talk between them selves on the CD portion of the bus. Also many of the uVAX and some later PDP-11 (J11based) the CD bus was wired differently for memory. In most cases the ABCD portion of the uVAX backplanes are only a few slots and then it reverts to ABAB. FYI if your in the ABAB area make sure you keep the bus grants and interrupt grants continuous. I know of this as I have PDP-11 and uVAX systems from LSI-11 though uVAXII/GPX.? They are all Q but there are more differences than Q16/Q18/Q22 due to the mechanical variations. Qbus board can be used in any system if they match the bus width (Q22 usually for uVAX) and you pay attention to where you put them.? This includes a lot of the PDP-11 Qbus cards.? Allison From allisonportable at gmail.com Thu Dec 7 13:22:16 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 14:22:16 -0500 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 12/07/2017 12:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > >> On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:50 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> ... >> MSCP is a software protocol. Any device that has a driver available for the PDP-11 operating system you want to use can use that device. > True with small variations. A sufficiently large disk might not be supported on some OS because the on-disk structure is limited in what device size it can handle. (This applies to RSTS for example.) Some devices use obscure MSCP mechanisms that might not be in all drivers -- for example, the RA80 uses host-based bad block replacement, which is quite a complicated process; I know RSTS supports that but it might be omitted in some other operating systems. MSCP is supported by most for the common PDP-11 OSs.? Only the older UNIX flavors lack a driver. However it has the component of local intelligence in the controller and if the controller supports MSCP such as RQDX(1/2/3) it works with RDxx MFM disks, floppies both 5.25(RX50 and RX33) and 3.5 (RX2x).? There are also the CMD and other controllers that are MSCP but do SCSI disks, Tapes and CDrom. ? So it a software protocol for communicating with controllers that understand that. The interface to the devices were on the "other" side of that. As such PDP11 and VAX support is there unless the OS in non-DEC in origin and even then if the time frame made it a marketing requirement the third party OS vendor had it. An example is a RD54 on a Qbus PDP-11 running RT11.? You need the LD driver to partition the disk as RT supports only 32mb or smaller devices and the RD54 is 150.?? It was supported but not ever sold that way. Things like block replacement are options of the OS and the device IO is then just a interface.? The protocol for to talk to the device is a lower level layer in most cases. > Also, in DEC terminology, "supported" doesn't mean "it works in the software" but rather "we stand behind it". That means tested, sold, handled by product support and field service, etc. For example, the RP07 works in RSTS on an 11/70, but it is not "supported". I'd expect the same is true for any number of MSCP or TMSCP devices that were intended to be sold only on VAXen -- they may very well work, but if you had plugged one in on a machine where they aren't supported, DEC would give you no help with any problems. Usually true.? If you were an important enough customer they did.? More often that that it was not a device level thing it was a system level "supported configuration" and help might be had, depending on the field office. > paul > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 7 14:09:53 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 15:09:53 -0500 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 7, 2017, at 2:22 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/07/2017 12:44 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Dec 7, 2017, at 11:50 AM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> MSCP is a software protocol. Any device that has a driver available for the PDP-11 operating system you want to use can use that device. >> True with small variations. A sufficiently large disk might not be supported on some OS because the on-disk structure is limited in what device size it can handle. (This applies to RSTS for example.) Some devices use obscure MSCP mechanisms that might not be in all drivers -- for example, the RA80 uses host-based bad block replacement, which is quite a complicated process; I know RSTS supports that but it might be omitted in some other operating systems. > ... > Things like block replacement are options of the OS and the device IO is > then just a > interface. The protocol for to talk to the device is a lower level > layer in most cases. No, bad block replacement in the UDA50/RA80 case is an MSCP mechanism where the controller (UDA50) offloads the work of managing bad blocks in part to the OS. The host still sees a logically contiguous error-free block space, just like in other MSCP devices (but unlike pre-MSCP). But if a block is found to be bad, the host driver has to help out with the process of assigning a replacement block. It's very different from the earlier bad block management which simply involves marking the offending LBAs as unavailable in the file system free space tables, and much more complicated. (The code in RSTS is about 2000 lines.) paul From jsw at ieee.org Thu Dec 7 18:02:07 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Thu, 7 Dec 2017 18:02:07 -0600 Subject: VAX Q-bus identical to PDP-11 Q-bus? In-Reply-To: References: <874lp5mcho.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87zi6vlegk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <5A29714D.5080601@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 7, 2017, at 1:22 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > ?.. > > As such PDP11 and VAX support is there unless the OS in non-DEC in > origin and even then if the > time frame made it a marketing requirement the third party OS vendor had it. > > An example is a RD54 on a Qbus PDP-11 running RT11. You need the LD > driver to partition the > disk as RT supports only 32mb or smaller devices and the RD54 is 150. > It was supported but > not ever sold that way. > > Things like block replacement are options of the OS and the device IO is > then just a > interface. The protocol for to talk to the device is a lower level > layer in most cases. > I think you are actually referring to the logical partitioning in the DU handler under RT-11. The DU (MSCP) handler managed this and had the ability to allow the disk to handle bad block replacement (RA type device) or do it in the controller (RD). The KZQSA is not listed as supported in V5.6. i have not seen documentation on how it configured SCSI drive support. I would be interested to know if anyone tried to use it under RT-11. Jerry From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 08:39:19 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:39:19 -0200 Subject: Tandy 1000 keyboard keys Message-ID: Greetings from Brazil :) Just got a Tandy 1000 SX. Nice shape, but it is missing the ESC and F10 keys. Would someone have a complete assembly (switch + caps) to sell, shipping to Brazil incuided? I'd also be interested in the monitor cable and one or two joysticks. Thanks! Alexandre http://tabajara-labs.blogspot.com From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Dec 8 08:45:20 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 14:45:20 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Hi everyone, I originally posted this on VCFed (which was new to me) but the moderation queue has had me waiting for about 3 days, so I thought I'd ask here as well, the usual of gurus. :) I was recently sent an RXV21 controller so I could test out my RX02 drive. When I power up the PDP-11 or reset the machine I get the nice clunking sound which I have been told is normal. I expect I wouldn't hear this if the ribbon cable was in the wrong way. To test, I tried to use VTserver to dump the contents of a disk, but it immediately threw an error. I soon realised there are two DIP switches on the logic board of the RX02 drive which had to be adjusted to work with the RXV21. So, I had some progress. Output of VTserver almost looked promising but then it hangs, as below: ]] Tape record n from device xx is written as xx(0,0,n) ]] Disk drive xx is written as xx(0,0,0) ]] ]] Enter name of input record/device: rx(0,0,0) ]] Enter name of output record/device: vt(0,0,1) ]] ]] Opened copy.out read-write ]] So, following some advice I booted via TU58em into XXDP and ran the diagnostics: ]] DR>STA ]] ]] CHANGE HW (L) ? N ]] ]] CHANGE SW (L) ? N ]] ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 00 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 ]] REG EXPECT=000000 ]] ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": ]] INTERFACE - M8029 ]] ]] UNIT#0 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 ]] DROP UNIT#0 FROM TEST ]] ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 01 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 ]] REG EXPECT=000000 ]] ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": ]] INTERFACE - M8029 ]] ]] UNIT#1 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 ]] DROP UNIT#1 FROM TEST ]] ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT ]] CZRXFB0 EOP 1 ]] 2 TOTAL ERRS So, the possible errors according to XXDP: - Bad power - I get 25v, 5v and -5v. The motors are spinning, not convinced it is this? - Cable backwards - I don't think I'd be hearing that clunk. - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means - PDP8 - eh? If anyone has any suggestions it would be great to hear them. Thanks, Aaron. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 08:54:00 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 14:54:00 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means > > - PDP8 - eh? No idea as to the fault (heck, it's not in front of me with a logic analyser to hand), but I think I can explain that. There is a pair of DIP switches on the controller board (the upper board in the RX02 itself, the one that hinges up). Three of the 4 settings are used : RX02 (which is the one you want, it is an RX02 drive to link to an RX211 or RXV21 interface), RX01 (turns the drive into a single- density-only RX01-a-like to link to an RX11 or RXV11) and 'PDP8' which is used to link to an RX8e for Omnibus PDP8 machines. The switch settings are in one of the manuals, you should check them. -tony From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Dec 8 09:03:17 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 15:03:17 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 2:45 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk > wrote: > >> - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means >> >> - PDP8 - eh? > > No idea as to the fault (heck, it's not in front of me with a logic analyser > to hand), but I think I can explain that. > > There is a pair of DIP switches on the controller board (the upper board > in the RX02 itself, the one that hinges up). Three of the 4 settings are > used : RX02 (which is the one you want, it is an RX02 drive to link > to an RX211 or RXV21 interface), RX01 (turns the drive into a single- > density-only RX01-a-like to link to an RX11 or RXV11) and 'PDP8' which > is used to link to an RX8e for Omnibus PDP8 machines. The switch > settings are in one of the manuals, you should check them. > > -tony I think I have this set correctly, can be seen in this photo, unless I misunderstand the colouring. Originally it was the other way around and VTserver would throw an error instead of hang. I can try it again, with the originally settings, under xxdp and see what happens. http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/rx02insides/logic.jpg Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 09:06:23 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:06:23 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > > Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an ohmmeter if in doubt! -tony From allisonportable at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 11:06:39 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 12:06:39 -0500 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <696c6794-6103-502f-fafc-8389b8e4a409@gmail.com> On 12/08/2017 09:45 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I originally posted this on VCFed (which was new to me) but the > moderation queue has had me waiting for about 3 days, so I thought I'd > ask here as well, the usual of gurus. :) > > I was recently sent an RXV21 controller so I could test out my RX02 > drive. When I power up the PDP-11 or reset the machine I get the nice > clunking sound which I have been told is normal. I expect I wouldn't > hear this if the ribbon cable was in the wrong way. > > To test, I tried to use VTserver to dump the contents of a disk, but it > immediately threw an error. I soon realised there are two DIP switches > on the logic board of the RX02 drive which had to be adjusted to work > with the RXV21. So, I had some progress. Output of VTserver almost > looked promising but then it hangs, as below: > > ]] Tape record n from device xx is written as xx(0,0,n) > ]] Disk drive xx is written as xx(0,0,0) > ]] > ]] Enter name of input record/device: rx(0,0,0) > ]] Enter name of output record/device: vt(0,0,1) > ]] > ]] Opened copy.out read-write > ]] > > So, following some advice I booted via TU58em into XXDP and ran the > diagnostics: > > ]] DR>STA > ]] > ]] CHANGE HW (L) ? N > ]] > ]] CHANGE SW (L) ? N > ]] > ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 00 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 > ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST > ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR > ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 > ]] REG EXPECT=000000 > ]] > ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": > ]] INTERFACE - M8029 > ]] > ]] UNIT#0 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> > ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 > ]] DROP UNIT#0 FROM TEST > ]] > ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT > ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 01 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 > ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST > ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR > ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 > ]] REG EXPECT=000000 > ]] > ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": > ]] INTERFACE - M8029 > ]] > ]] UNIT#1 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> > ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 > ]] DROP UNIT#1 FROM TEST > ]] > ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT > ]] CZRXFB0 EOP 1 > ]] 2 TOTAL ERRS > > So, the possible errors according to XXDP: > > - Bad power - I get 25v, 5v and -5v. The motors are spinning, not > convinced it is this? > > - Cable backwards - I don't think I'd be hearing that clunk. > > - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means > > - PDP8 - eh? > > If anyone has any suggestions it would be great to hear them. > > Thanks, > Aaron. Why not do the obvious and flip the able at one end?? Its not like it can hurt something. FYI the two switches are for set for PDP-8 (12 bit) operation and the other sets is for RX01 or RX02 mode.? RX01 mode locks the logic for RX01 operation only and the RX02 mode allows it to do both RX01 and RX02 media. ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 That means check for: ???? No power, drive has now power. ???? Cable reversed ???? set for RX01 or Set for PDP-8 Its a list of things that can be wrong to make it not work. Allison From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Dec 8 12:53:34 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 18:53:34 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> >> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 > > In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an > ohmmeter if in doubt! > > -tony Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP actually does something now. Most of the tests now look something like this: CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR 00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476 SECTOR ADR - LGC TST SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR EXPECTED SECTOR=18. TARGET SECTOR=17. I suppose these should match? Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer and the RX02 control board. Thanks, Aaron. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 8 13:04:01 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 14:04:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <20171208190401.8DBED18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Jackson > Most of the tests now look something like this: > ... > SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR > EXPECTED SECTOR=18. > TARGET SECTOR=17. I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using? Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the RX02. Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Dec 8 13:13:02 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 19:13:02 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <20171208190401.8DBED18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171208190401.8DBED18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87shclkp8h.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > > From: Aaron Jackson > > > Most of the tests now look something like this: > > ... > > SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR > > EXPECTED SECTOR=18. > > TARGET SECTOR=17. > > I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using? > > Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the > sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the > RX02. > > Noel Possibly, but I ran the same test on about 4 floppies and failed in the same way. I bought a box of 13 floppy disks a while ago off eBay, so unless the box was kept on top of a magnet or something, I'd expect at least one of them to work. Some of them have quite interesting names: Rutherford Appleton Laboratory Software and Code from Neutron Divider So I am quite interested to see what's on them. Thanks, Aaron. From js at cimmeri.com Fri Dec 8 14:04:26 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 15:04:26 -0500 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87shclkp8h.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <20171208190401.8DBED18C08E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <87shclkp8h.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <5A2AF04A.7010608@cimmeri.com> On 12/8/2017 2:13 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if there's a problem with the floppy you are using? >> >> Remember, the RX0x drives can't hard reformat the floppies (as in, write the >> sector headers), so if the floopy has a problem, you can't fix it with the >> RX02. >> >> Noel > Possibly, but I ran the same test on about 4 floppies and failed in the > same way. I bought a box of 13 floppy disks a while ago off eBay, so > unless the box was kept on top of a magnet or something, I'd expect at > least one of them to work. On the contrary, I wouldn't expect ANY of your floppy disks to work. Having been through getting an RX01 rejuvenated and working again, I had to fresh format some diskettes. - J. From jsw at ieee.org Fri Dec 8 15:59:09 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:59:09 -0600 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: > On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >>> >>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 >> >> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an >> ohmmeter if in doubt! >> >> -tony > > Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got > the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP > actually does something now. > > Most of the tests now look something like this: > > CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR 00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476 > SECTOR ADR - LGC TST > SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR > EXPECTED SECTOR=18. > TARGET SECTOR=17. > > I suppose these should match? > > Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer > and the RX02 control board. > > Thanks, > Aaron. To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow the media as you move them between drives. If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault. The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down a bit further, with or w/o a logic analyzer. How many different types of errors do you see? Jerry From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 16:46:40 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:46:40 -0600 Subject: Types of corrosion on computers Message-ID: I've seen rust and dust, but there's an old vaxstation II at Goodwill Computers in Austin right now (very cheap, anyone welcome to buy it and get it off my mind) but as most things, I checked out the back and see some circles of white corrosion on the back where the cards? are contacting the case. I don't really have room or time but I don't own anything that uses QBUS or is almost related to some of the neat iron some of you all collect (I've mostly collected way too many home computer history items). Anyway, what is that type of white corrosion on metal? Would one probably assume this means any bus would be corroded and this wouldn't be a computer for the faint of heart hobbyist? I've only seen that maybe from batteries but it's in an unusual place and pattern (I think). From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Dec 8 17:06:04 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 23:06:04 +0000 Subject: Types of corrosion on computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Could be the zinc plating? Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Sam O'nella via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 2:46:40 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Types of corrosion on computers I've seen rust and dust, but there's an old vaxstation II at Goodwill Computers in Austin right now (very cheap, anyone welcome to buy it and get it off my mind) but as most things, I checked out the back and see some circles of white corrosion on the back where the cards? are contacting the case. I don't really have room or time but I don't own anything that uses QBUS or is almost related to some of the neat iron some of you all collect (I've mostly collected way too many home computer history items). Anyway, what is that type of white corrosion on metal? Would one probably assume this means any bus would be corroded and this wouldn't be a computer for the faint of heart hobbyist? I've only seen that maybe from batteries but it's in an unusual place and pattern (I think). From tdk.knight at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 17:09:16 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:09:16 -0600 Subject: Types of corrosion on computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: water get sprayed on it? On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 5:06 PM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > Could be the zinc plating? > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Sam O'nella via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 2:46:40 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Types of corrosion on computers > > I've seen rust and dust, but there's an old vaxstation II at Goodwill > Computers in Austin right now (very cheap, anyone welcome to buy it and get > it off my mind) but as most things, I checked out the back and see some > circles of white corrosion on the back where the cards? are contacting the > case. > > I don't really have room or time but I don't own anything that uses QBUS or > is almost related to some of the neat iron some of you all collect (I've > mostly collected way too many home computer history items). > > Anyway, what is that type of white corrosion on metal? Would one probably > assume this means any bus would be corroded and this wouldn't be a computer > for the faint of heart hobbyist? I've only seen that maybe from batteries > but it's in an unusual place and pattern (I think). > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Fri Dec 8 17:17:56 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 08 Dec 2017 23:17:56 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> >>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >>>> >>>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 >>> >>> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an >>> ohmmeter if in doubt! >>> >>> -tony >> >> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got >> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP >> actually does something now. >> >> Most of the tests now look something like this: >> >> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR 00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476 >> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST >> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR >> EXPECTED SECTOR=18. >> TARGET SECTOR=17. >> >> I suppose these should match? >> >> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer >> and the RX02 control board. >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. > > To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow > the media as you move them between drives. > > If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the > RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault. > The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down > a bit further, with or w/o a logic analyzer. > > How many different types of errors do you see? > > Jerry Thanks for the info Jerry. I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :) Please see this link if you are interested: https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives. Thanks, Aaron. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 17:36:43 2017 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 18:36:43 -0500 Subject: Types of corrosion on computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've seen this a few times. I never knew exactly what it was but it usually comes off but there is staining left over. Here are a couple of explanations from Google. *White rust* is a *white* powdery deposit formed from a natural *corrosion* process that can occur on any new zinc coated steel product. It is damaging to the appearance of the steel, not to mention to the anti-*corrosion* layer of zinc that protects the body of the steel. Galvanized *metals* also *rust*, but they do so at a slow rate unless the galvanized coating has been damaged. Brass, silver, and bronze tarnish as they interact with the atmosphere. Aluminum oxidizes into a *white powder*, although the *powder* binds chemically to the *metal* beneath, blocking further *corrosion*. On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 6:09 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > water get sprayed on it? > > > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 5:06 PM, dwight via cctalk > wrote: > > > Could be the zinc plating? > > > > Dwight > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cctalk on behalf of Sam O'nella > via > > cctalk > > Sent: Friday, December 8, 2017 2:46:40 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Types of corrosion on computers > > > > I've seen rust and dust, but there's an old vaxstation II at Goodwill > > Computers in Austin right now (very cheap, anyone welcome to buy it and > get > > it off my mind) but as most things, I checked out the back and see some > > circles of white corrosion on the back where the cards? are contacting > the > > case. > > > > I don't really have room or time but I don't own anything that uses QBUS > or > > is almost related to some of the neat iron some of you all collect (I've > > mostly collected way too many home computer history items). > > > > Anyway, what is that type of white corrosion on metal? Would one > probably > > assume this means any bus would be corroded and this wouldn't be a > computer > > for the faint of heart hobbyist? I've only seen that maybe from batteries > > but it's in an unusual place and pattern (I think). > > > From jsw at ieee.org Fri Dec 8 18:30:12 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 18:30:12 -0600 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > >>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 >>>> >>>> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an >>>> ohmmeter if in doubt! >>>> >>>> -tony >>> >>> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got >>> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP >>> actually does something now. >>> >>> Most of the tests now look something like this: >>> >>> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR 00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476 >>> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST >>> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR >>> EXPECTED SECTOR=18. >>> TARGET SECTOR=17. >>> >>> I suppose these should match? >>> >>> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer >>> and the RX02 control board. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Aaron. >> >> To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow >> the media as you move them between drives. >> >> If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the >> RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault. >> The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down >> a bit further, with or w/o a logic analyzer. >> >> How many different types of errors do you see? >> >> Jerry > > Thanks for the info Jerry. > > I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing > errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :) > > Please see this link if you are interested: > > https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt > > I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also > try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives. > > Thanks, > Aaron. When you have many errors it can be hard to separate the primary fault(s) from the knock-on errors. The M7745/M7744 or Media Errors dominate the entries. 1) Try to verify the media is a DEC 8 Inch formatted RX02 or RX01 if you do not know the source of the the disks. The disk should have only 1 hole punched for index on the media itself. Even if it is a DEC Brand, there?s still possibility that the media has been exposed to strong magnetic fields. I have not seen much natural bit-rot on my floppy media, but YMMV. If could find someone local with RX02 drives to confirm your media, that would also help rule out some things. Many third party drives and controllers that were DEC compatible also had the ability to do a low level format of media, something the native RX02 did not. So if the media type is correct, but the format is not, they may be salvageable (with complete loss of original data). 2) Check the connections between the drives and controllers. Gently clean contacts, especially anything gold plated. Getting clean signals from the floppies is critical if the RW electronics are to function. 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered. This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction. Jerry From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 18:34:56 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 16:34:56 -0800 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > > > = > 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered. > > This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction. > > I know that there some very low-level disk analysis tools (Kyroflux or something?) Would it be feasible to use one of those tools to verify the format and data integrity of the floppies? -- Charles From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Dec 8 19:08:55 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:08:55 -0800 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 12/8/2017 4:34 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 4:30 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> = >> 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered. >> >> This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction. >> >> > I know that there some very low-level disk analysis tools (Kyroflux or > something?) Would it be feasible to use one of those tools to verify the > format and data integrity of the floppies? > > -- Charles This brings up a point I'm interested in.? I've got a kryoflux and the parts that hopefully will let me run regular 8" drive.? Does anyone have experience writing RX01 or RX02 images with such drives onto blank media (non dec pre-formatted)? I'm really hoping to create test media to use before I risk any of the masters I have to any drives (I have a Minc 11 with a lot of floppies). I hope to image all the media I have via the same 8" drives, and not fiddle with the Minc or RX02 I have, but to just get them going, and use them on systems. thanks Jim From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Dec 8 19:22:57 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:22:57 -0800 Subject: IBM 3270 controller emulation Message-ID: I am trying to wire 3270 support into the DPS8/M emulator. Multics supports 3270 via a bisync connection to the 3270 controller. Multics sends commands to the Front End Network processor, which (originally) passed the commands down the bisync line to the 3270. I have a running Multics and running 3270 display emulators using tn3270 (3270 over telnet), so I need to write the code that maps the Multics commands into 3270 controller commands (and vice versa) and manages the telnet connections to the 3270 display emulators and maps the tn3270 traffic into 3270 controllers. I don't need to actually implement the bisync communications; the controller emulator will be running inside the FNP emulator, but I need to express controller responses to Multics in the bisync format, as Multics is expecting that the responses arrived over a bisync connection. The problem is that I have no idea how the 3270 controllers worked; I've looked through the bitsavers collection; those documents are largely concerned with the displays and tend to treat the controllers as 'black boxes' that just do the right thing. So I am seeking pointers to documentation that will give me a better grasp of the controller functionality and/or discussions with someone who knows how they work..... Thanks, -- Charles From ggs at shiresoft.com Fri Dec 8 19:37:57 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:37:57 -0800 Subject: IBM 3270 controller emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: It might be worthwhile to look at the source for hercules (370, 390, z/series) emulator since that includes support for 3270 terminals through tn3270. It?s pretty good since I can use actual 327x CUT terminals connected to a 3174 controller which connects to hercules emulating the mainframe. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk wrote: > > I am trying to wire 3270 support into the DPS8/M emulator. > > Multics supports 3270 via a bisync connection to the 3270 controller. > Multics sends commands to the Front End Network processor, which > (originally) passed the commands down the bisync line to the 3270. > > I have a running Multics and running 3270 display emulators using tn3270 > (3270 over telnet), so I need to write the code that maps the Multics > commands into 3270 controller commands (and vice versa) and manages the > telnet connections to the 3270 display emulators and maps the tn3270 > traffic into 3270 controllers. > > I don't need to actually implement the bisync communications; the > controller emulator will be running inside the FNP emulator, but I need to > express controller responses to Multics in the bisync format, as Multics is > expecting that the responses arrived over a bisync connection. > > The problem is that I have no idea how the 3270 controllers worked; I've > looked through the bitsavers collection; those documents are largely > concerned with the displays and tend to treat the controllers as 'black > boxes' that just do the right thing. > > So I am seeking pointers to documentation that will give me a better grasp > of the controller functionality and/or discussions with someone who knows > how they work..... > > Thanks, > -- Charles From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 8 15:17:22 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 21:17:22 +0000 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: Van: John Welch via cctech Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25 Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Revive 11/34 I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. [M8265--------] [M9312] [M7859] [M7762--------] [OPEN] [M7860] [M7840--------] Bus grant in third from front slot [M9302] [M7856] The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. Sincerely, John Welch :qw It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions. Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is thus at the front side. There is no confusion about the first 4 slots. Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1, and M8265 in slot 2. Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board, and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console interface board. Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane. Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the DR11-C. We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a typo? The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element. I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"? Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273 in this slot when the M7840 is removed. If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper" traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot. Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F. The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next backplane? Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions A - B? I have never seen that ... I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots. When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers. If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things first. Henk. From jsw at ieee.org Fri Dec 8 15:50:17 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 15:50:17 -0600 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: > > I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: > > Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. > > [M8265--------] > > [M9312] [M7859] > > [M7762--------] > > [OPEN] [M7860] > > [M7840--------] > > Bus grant in third from front slot > > [M9302] [M7856] > The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal > > When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' > > Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. > > Sincerely, > John Welch > :qw 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from the back) It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember. You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the M7840 that requires DMA. 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. 3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal? An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB? 4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s? 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info. Jerry From jsw at ieee.org Fri Dec 8 20:58:08 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 20:58:08 -0600 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: > On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: >> On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech >> wrote: >> >>> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: >>> >>> Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. >>> [M8265--------] >>> [M9312] [M7859] >>> [M7762--------] >>> [OPEN] [M7860] >>> [M7840--------] >>> Bus grant in third from front slot >>> [M9302] [M7856] >>> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal >>> >>> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' >>> >>> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> John Welch >>> :qw >>> >> >> 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from the back) >> It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember. >> >> You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the >> M7840 that requires DMA. Ignore this last suggestion (see below). >> >> 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. >> >> 3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal? >> >> An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB? >> >> 4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s? >> >> 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info. >> >> >> Jerry >> >> > > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:26 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: > > Update: > This is the map of the machine: > > ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... > (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) > ........................ 2 [M8265----------------] .................... > ........................ 3 [M9312] [M7859--------] .................... > ........................ 4 [M7891----------------] .................... > ........................ 5 [M7762----------------] .................... > ........................ 6 [M7860--------] .................... > ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... > ........................ 8 GNT .................... > ........................ 9 [M9302] [M7856--------] .................... > ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... > Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display. I have replaced the M7840 with a G7273. > Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank. > I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one. > Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum. > I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA. Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular wire but that was >15 years ago. Your update has a M7891 (MS11) which addresses the memory questions. The Programmers Console display is not correct. It should be 7 digits, either 0000000 when running or some other data or address value. Check the cable orientation. see http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/KY11-LB_MaintMan.pdf chapter 9. A light cleaning and reseating all the boards is an easy place to start. For NPG changes see http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/1134_UsersManual.pdf section 4.2.2.2 Ignore my earlier comment about leaving out the G727a. I had slipped into QBUS thinking mode in error. > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:49 PM, John Welch wrote: > > I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this: > > 11/04: > ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... > (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) > ........................ 2 [M7847----------------] .................... > ........................ 3 [M7859--------] .................... > ........................ 4 [M7847----------------] .................... > ........................ 5 GNT .................... > ........................ 6 [M7762----------------] .................... > ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... > ........................ 8 [DILOG--------] .................... > ........................ 9 {nothing} .................... > ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... > I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions? The 11/04 and 11/34a are of the same engineering cycle, so share these parts. See http://www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/bootstrap-info.html and http://www.bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/EK-11004-OP-001%20PDP-11-04%20System%20User%27s%20Manual.pdf I believe the cabling for the M7859 is a little different between the two See Section A in the 11/04 Manual. Jerry From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 04:38:28 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 10:38:28 -0000 Subject: IBM 3270 controller emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <027401d370d9$da2c5930$8e850b90$@gmail.com> Folks, The tn3270 support in Hercules emulates channel attached 3270's not bi-sync so may not be a good source of info. On a local 3270 controller each screen has a unique channel-controller-device address. On a bi-sync device only the line going to the device, additional addressing is required using poll/select sequences... The total reference book is the Datastreams Programmers Reference. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/3270/GA23-0059-4_3270_Data_Stream_Programmers_Reference_Dec88.pdf This covers most of what you want to know. Chapter 9 covers the differences encountered in a bi-sync environment. If you need to understand the lower level bi-sync and the poll-select protocols, which I think may be what is blocking you at present try this:- http://www.euclideanspace.com/coms/protocol/bi_sync/dlc/index.htm its not wonderful but it may help. Looking at the chapter on 3270's in the VM sysgen might help explain the addressing (it might not)... http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ibm/370/VM_370/Release_6/GC20-1801-10_VM370_Sysgen_Rel_6_Jan80.pdf Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor Jr via cctalk > Sent: 09 December 2017 01:38 > To: Charles Anthony ; General Discussion: On- > Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: IBM 3270 controller emulation > > It might be worthwhile to look at the source for hercules (370, 390, z/series) > emulator since that includes support for 3270 terminals through tn3270. It?s > pretty good since I can use actual 327x CUT terminals connected to a 3174 > controller which connects to hercules emulating the mainframe. > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:22 PM, Charles Anthony via cctalk > wrote: > > > > I am trying to wire 3270 support into the DPS8/M emulator. > > > > Multics supports 3270 via a bisync connection to the 3270 controller. > > Multics sends commands to the Front End Network processor, which > > (originally) passed the commands down the bisync line to the 3270. > > > > I have a running Multics and running 3270 display emulators using > > tn3270 > > (3270 over telnet), so I need to write the code that maps the Multics > > commands into 3270 controller commands (and vice versa) and manages > > the telnet connections to the 3270 display emulators and maps the > > tn3270 traffic into 3270 controllers. > > > > I don't need to actually implement the bisync communications; the > > controller emulator will be running inside the FNP emulator, but I > > need to express controller responses to Multics in the bisync format, > > as Multics is expecting that the responses arrived over a bisync connection. > > > > The problem is that I have no idea how the 3270 controllers worked; > > I've looked through the bitsavers collection; those documents are > > largely concerned with the displays and tend to treat the controllers > > as 'black boxes' that just do the right thing. > > > > So I am seeking pointers to documentation that will give me a better > > grasp of the controller functionality and/or discussions with someone > > who knows how they work..... > > > > Thanks, > > -- Charles From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 9 07:56:52 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 08:56:52 -0500 (EST) Subject: Revive 11/34 Message-ID: <20171209135652.A6A9318C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > Any suggestions as to what to try first? I would _definitely_ start by pulling _all_ the cards you can, to get down to the simplest possible configuration. Once that works, start adding things back in, one at a time. If that configuration doesn't work, first try the obvious things (clean and re-seat, check voltages, etc). If that doesn't get it running, it's time for a oscilloscope or logic analyzer. (We can help you through that.) So I'd start with the CPU (M8266/M8265), front-terminator/bootstrap ROM (M9312), the front console card (M7859), and rear-terminator (M9302) (which you need for grant turnaround, see next paragraph). That's it. IIRC, the /34 will complain if the bus grant chain is not complete (I really need to look at the prints/ucode to understand why this is so - other -11's will run basic functionality fine with an interrupted grant chain), so plug in grant jumpers in every unused slot. Also, check the backplane, to see which slots have had their NPG jumpers pulled, and either i) use a G7273 jumper (the dual boards which contain an NPG jumper as well as the BR jumpers) in those slots, or replace the jumpers. I _think_ the machine will be OK without any memory, but I don't have a running 11/34 to test that on. (Only my /04 is running at the moment.) I can plug my /34 cards in and try it, if that will help. But maybe someone else knows. So maybe you'd have to add a memory card, but that would _definitely_ be the biggest configuration I'd try until the basic machine is working. You can examine the MMU registers in the CPU to check that the bus/console etc are working - first read, then write. And IIRC the CPU general registers are accessible from the bus too - I know they are in the -11/04 (which uses the same front console). Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 9 08:23:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 09:23:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Re; Revive 11/34 Message-ID: <20171209142348.6D22B18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen A few comments to you about Henk's points: > Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the console), > slot number 1 is at the right side. That's for the 10-1/2" box; the 5-1/4" is different. Which is this? > Each slot has 6 positions. Position A is at the rear side, followed by > B thru F. Position F is thus at the front side. I prefer to say that connector A is at the right, when facing the component side of a hex-wide card which has the handles at the top, and the contact fingers at the bottom. (Make doubly sure you never plug a card in backwards! It will almost certainly kill the card. In theory they are keyed so you can't, but idiots like me have been known to do it! :-) > The 4 copper "jumper" traces should be facing the next higher-numbered > slot. I.e. on the so-called 'solder' side of the card, not the 'component' side. (All the cards face the same way.) > When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers. > If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an > issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The M7859's are, for some reason, particularly prone to failures. About half the ones I've seen weren't working at first. There's no one chip that seems to be the usual suspect, I've seen several different failure modes. > From: Jerry Weiss And the same for Jerry... > It won't seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped > knuckles remember. Nope, they go in quite fine the wrong way around; I just checked. Make sure they are in the right connector (D) and the right way around; I haven't checked to see if damage is likely to result on an error - does anyone know offhand? > Check the cable orientation. Note that one DEC manual (the KY11-LB Maintenance Manual) shows the wrong orientation! See here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console at "Cable Connection and Documentation Error" for more. > I believe the cabling for the M7859 is a little different between the two The /34 has two narrow 'maintainence' cables, the /04 only one. But you can ignore these if you're not using the maintenance mode on the front console, and only plug in the wide cable. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 9 10:15:18 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:15:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: Revive 11/34 Message-ID: <20171209161518.2C38018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I > remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular > wire Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it. That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: component side, third connector (counting from the A connector), first and second pins (again counting from the A connector end). A lot of the slots will still have their jumpers in, which is how you can confirm you're looking at the right pins; look for slots without them. > I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. Yeah, the M7263 is the KD11-D CPU, the M7847's are MS11-E's (one of them will be useful as a first-stage debug for the 11/34, once you've verified, in the -11/04, that they work - the M7891 MS11-L is rare and valuable, I'd rather not use that until everything up to that point in the -11/34 is known working - you could try pulling the two M7847's from the -11/04 and try plugging in the M7891, to verify that it's sort of OK). > I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 > for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions? As always, first pull all the boards and check the power supply (if it's been a long time since it was last powered on, re-form the electrolytics in the power supply first, before powering it on), then put in the _minimal_ set of boards and get those working. > I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to > Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on > the 11/04. > I have six '0' digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066. > Looks like things are moving. Yup, that's working. Now you have a working machine, you can board-swap in from the -11/34 to check other boards out. Major, major help!! The first thing I'd try would be the M7859, KY11-LB, from the -11/34 over here. If it doesn't work in the -11/04 (with only that board changed), i) you've isolated the problem, and ii) you can probably use the one from the -11/04 to get the -11/34 working (unless there's something _else_ broken in the -11/34 as well). NOTE: Don't plug the good one from the -11/04 into the -11/34 - or do anything else with the -11/34 - until you've checked the voltages in the -11/34!!! If the M7859, KY11-LB from the -11/34 _does_ work in the -11/04, time to keep looking. The console itself is so dumb it's unlikely to be the problem, but you never know; might we worth swapping. I'm having a hard time seeing what problems in the /34 CPU, etc could cause the symptoms you're seeing - are they still there with only the absolute minimal board set? Noel From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 10:42:07 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 16:42:07 +0000 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20171209161518.2C38018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171209161518.2C38018C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: AFAICR (?), the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console only communicates with the M7859. The M7859 writes/read to/from memory using the UNIBUS. Have a look at the schematics of the console. I cannot remember whether a demux for the displays is on the console PCB, or on the M7859. I also have a few dead M7859?s too. Of one I know that one of the two 4-bit memory chips is faulty, the others I never investigated. If you get 000000 on the dsipaly and when halted it shows 173066 I presume it is looping. You can use the front panel to single step. If it loops, it will repeatedly read from a device address which is most likely the CSR of the boot device. 173066 is an address of the boot PROMs on the M9312. So, your 11/04 seems fine so far ? ________________________________ Van: cctalk namens Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 5:15:18 PM Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34 > From: John Welch > Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut? I > remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular > wire Yeah; you can use the G7273 as a 'crib', since it has the NPG jumper on it. That jumper goes from CA1 to CB1: component side, third connector (counting from the A connector), first and second pins (again counting from the A connector end). A lot of the slots will still have their jumpers in, which is how you can confirm you're looking at the right pins; look for slots without them. > I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. Yeah, the M7263 is the KD11-D CPU, the M7847's are MS11-E's (one of them will be useful as a first-stage debug for the 11/34, once you've verified, in the -11/04, that they work - the M7891 MS11-L is rare and valuable, I'd rather not use that until everything up to that point in the -11/34 is known working - you could try pulling the two M7847's from the -11/04 and try plugging in the M7891, to verify that it's sort of OK). > I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 > for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions? As always, first pull all the boards and check the power supply (if it's been a long time since it was last powered on, re-form the electrolytics in the power supply first, before powering it on), then put in the _minimal_ set of boards and get those working. > I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to > Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on > the 11/04. > I have six '0' digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066. > Looks like things are moving. Yup, that's working. Now you have a working machine, you can board-swap in from the -11/34 to check other boards out. Major, major help!! The first thing I'd try would be the M7859, KY11-LB, from the -11/34 over here. If it doesn't work in the -11/04 (with only that board changed), i) you've isolated the problem, and ii) you can probably use the one from the -11/04 to get the -11/34 working (unless there's something _else_ broken in the -11/34 as well). NOTE: Don't plug the good one from the -11/04 into the -11/34 - or do anything else with the -11/34 - until you've checked the voltages in the -11/34!!! If the M7859, KY11-LB from the -11/34 _does_ work in the -11/04, time to keep looking. The console itself is so dumb it's unlikely to be the problem, but you never know; might we worth swapping. I'm having a hard time seeing what problems in the /34 CPU, etc could cause the symptoms you're seeing - are they still there with only the absolute minimal board set? Noel From jsw at ieee.org Sat Dec 9 12:23:11 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 12:23:11 -0600 Subject: Re; Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: <20171209142348.6D22B18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171209142348.6D22B18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0218B612-41B2-40EE-AE4E-5F831DDF82E1@ieee.org> > On Dec 9, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > >> From: Jerry Weiss > > And the same for Jerry... > >> It won't seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped >> knuckles remember. > > Nope, they go in quite fine the wrong way around; I just checked. > > Make sure they are in the right connector (D) and the right way around; I > haven't checked to see if damage is likely to result on an error - does > anyone know offhand? Yup, they insert reversed. I remember the limited keying resulted in a offset that you could sense if you had any feeling left in those fingers. If both edges aren?t flush with the connector, its backwards. From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Fri Dec 8 14:25:34 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 14:25:34 -0600 Subject: Revive 11/34 Message-ID: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: Back/Fans [M8266--------]? Front of machine where keypad is. ????????? [M8265--------] ????????? [M9312] [M7859] ????????? [M7762--------] ????????? [OPEN]? [M7860] ????????? [M7840--------] ????????? Bus grant in third from front slot ????????? [M9302] [M7856] The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' Any suggestions as to what to try first?? I may have the bus grant in backwards.? I have other boards I can try. Sincerely, John Welch :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Fri Dec 8 17:26:13 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:26:13 -0600 Subject: Fwd: Re: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Update: This is the map of the machine: ........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M8266----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) ........................ 2 [M8265----------------] .................... ........................ 3 [M9312] [M7859--------] .................... ........................ 4 [M7891----------------] .................... ........................ 5 [M7762----------------] .................... ........................ 6???????? [M7860--------] .................... ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... ........................ 8???????????? GNT .................... ........................ 9 [M9302] [M7856--------] .................... ........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... Reseating the ribbon cable on the M7859 changed the display.? I have replaced the M7840 with a G7273. Now when I power on it says (dim)0, (bright)0, blank, (dim)0, blank, blank. I have reseated the M7859, I don't think I have another one. Maybe I should hit it with a vacuum. I had forgotten about needing to cut a wire for DMA.? Can you give me a refresher on how to tell which slots are cut?? I remember having to turn the chassis over and looking for a particular wire but that was >15 years ago. On 12/8/2017 3:17 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > > > > Van: John Welch via cctech > Verzonden: vrijdag 8 december 2017 21:25 > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: Revive 11/34 > > > > I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: > > Back/Fans [M8266--------]? Front of machine where keypad is. > >??????????? [M8265--------] > >??????????? [M9312] [M7859] > >??????????? [M7762--------] > >??????????? [OPEN]? [M7860] > >??????????? [M7840--------] > >??????????? Bus grant in third from front slot > >??????????? [M9302] [M7856] > The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running > XP&Hyperterminal > > When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered > off, then back on, and now it says '5' > > Any suggestions as to what to try first?? I may have the bus grant in > backwards.? I have other boards I can try. > > Sincerely, > John Welch > :qw > > > > > > It is not completely clear (to me) how the modules are installed in the > > backplane. Standing in front of the 11/34 processor box (looking at the > > console), slot number 1 is at the right side. Each slot has 6 positions. > > Position A is at the rear side, followed by B thru F. Position F is > > thus at the front side. > > There is no confusion about the first 4 slots. > > > > Slot 1 and 2 hold the 11/34A processor boards, with M8266 in slot 1, > > and M8265 in slot 2. > > Slot 3, positions A and B has the M9312 bootstrap/terminator board, > > and slot3, positions C thru F has the M7859 KY11-LB programmer's console > > interface board. > > Slot 4 holds the RL11 interface. This module does "DMA", so the NPR > > jumper must be cut (open) on the backplane. > > Slot 5 has an SPC in positions C thru F. I had to look it up; it is the > > DR11-C. > > > > We are up to slot 6. Now things get "interesting" ... is that M7840 a typo? > > The field guide says that this is a KE11-B Extended Arithmetic Element. > > I do not know that board, is it "hex" or "quad"? > > Not sure that board belongs there ... and if it is quad, I assume it has > > to be in positions C thru F. I would suggest to pull this module, and > > check the NPR wire presence on the backplane. You need a G727A or G7273 > > in this slot when the M7840 is removed. > > > > If you are not skipping slots (see below), we are now at slot 7. There > > is probably a G727A grant continuity card (aka "knockle buster") in > > position D. That would be OK, but if the NPR jumper is cut on the > > backplane, you would need a G7273 continuity and NPR card in positions > > C - D. It is easy to have the G727 put in wrong. The 4 copper "jumper" > > traces should be facing the next higher-numbered slot. > > > > Then you say that the next slot has the M9202 (in position A - B) and > > the M7856 (SLU and RTC) in positions C thru F. > The M9202 connects two system units (backplanes). So, what is the next > > backplane?? Or do you have the M9202 in slot 8 and slot 9, positions > > A - B?? I have never seen that ... > > > > I am missing one slot. The 11/34 backplane has 9 slots. > > > > When you power up the system, the display should show 6 octal numbers. > > If only one digit shows a number (7 or 5 or whatever), there is an > > issue with the console itself, or the M7859. The 6 digits of the display > > are multiplexed. Maybe the connection cable between the console and the > > M7859 - damaged/knicked? It is worth checking out the simpler things first. > > > > Henk. -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Fri Dec 8 17:49:01 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Fri, 8 Dec 2017 17:49:01 -0600 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out.? It is configured like this: 11/04: ........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) ........................ 2 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 3???????? [M7859--------] .................... ........................ 4 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 5???????????? GNT .................... ........................ 6 [M7762----------------] .................... ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... ........................ 8???????? [DILOG--------] .................... ........................ 9?????? {nothing} .................... ........................?? AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up.? Any suggestions? On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: >> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: >> >> Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. >> >> [M8265--------] >> >> [M9312] [M7859] >> >> [M7762--------] >> >> [OPEN] [M7860] >> >> [M7840--------] >> >> Bus grant in third from front slot >> >> [M9302] [M7856] >> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal >> >> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' >> >> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> :qw > > 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from the back) > It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember. > > You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the > M7840 that requires DMA. > > 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. > > 3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal? > > An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB? > > 4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s? > > 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info. > > > Jerry > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Dec 9 05:07:27 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 11:07:27 +0000 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org>, Message-ID: Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A ? B, sounds more familiar (or is it M9302?) The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C ? F, when used as console. Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board (uhmmm, you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The ?older? boards (UNIBUS, and many QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like the M7856, which says (IIRC) ?SLU & RTC?. Maybe the identification in the Field Guide is wrong ? Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as many times described here ? for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 11/35 arghh, working on a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other things that should not be there. Just an overal inspection. You could makes notes of where the boards are placed and take a picture. Then remove the boards (observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the voltages from the regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover. Then you can check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the backplane(s). If needed, adjust the output voltage(s). Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. Install the boards again, connect a terminal and proceed ? Back to the 11/34A. I haven?t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment display has 6 or 7 digits. But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the case, there is definitely something wrong. ________________________________ Van: cctech namens John Welch via cctech Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM Aan: Jerry Weiss; cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34 I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this: 11/04: ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) ........................ 2 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 3 [M7859--------] .................... ........................ 4 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 5 GNT .................... ........................ 6 [M7762----------------] .................... ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... ........................ 8 [DILOG--------] .................... ........................ 9 {nothing} .................... ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions? On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: >> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: >> >> Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. >> >> [M8265--------] >> >> [M9312] [M7859] >> >> [M7762--------] >> >> [OPEN] [M7860] >> >> [M7840--------] >> >> Bus grant in third from front slot >> >> [M9302] [M7856] >> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal >> >> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' >> >> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> :qw > > 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from the back) > It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember. > > You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the > M7840 that requires DMA. > > 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. > > 3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal? > > An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB? > > 4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s? > > 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info. > > > Jerry > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Sat Dec 9 08:33:02 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (JCWelch) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 08:33:02 -0600 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: <5B6E7404-262F-4486-8614-3277066AC8E9@hal-pc.org> I added an M9302 in Slot9-AB and then moved the M7856 from the 11/34 to Slot9-CDEF of the 11/04. I put a random M9312 in Slot3-AB I turned on the 11/04. I have six ?0? digits. I push ctrl+hlt and the display shows 173066. Looks like things are moving. The ultimate goal is to hook this unit to an RL02, possibility an RX02, a console, and then image some RL02 disks. I need to determine the console line settings and what M9312 with what boot ROMs makes sense. Off to the ranch to see if I can dig a VT100 out of a barn. Sent from my iPad On Dec 9, 2017, at 5:07 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: Ahh, that M9203 in slot 9, positions A ? B, sounds more familiar (or is it M9302?) The M7856 is often in slot 9 position C ? F, when used as console. Interesting, the 11/04 also has that M7840 installed. Could you pull that board (uhmmm, you did), and have a look at the texts in the etch? The ?older? boards (UNIBUS, and many QBUS too) had a function identificaltion in the etch. Like the M7856, which says (IIRC) ?SLU & RTC?. Maybe the identification in the Field Guide is wrong ? Before powering up the 11/04, I would do a thorough mechanical check of it, as many times described here ? for example: loose screws in the box (took out my 11/35 arghh, working on a repair!), cables not properly seated, dust and other things that should not be there. Just an overal inspection. You could makes notes of where the boards are placed and take a picture. Then remove the boards (observe ESD guide lines), turn on the power and check the voltages from the regulators. Easiest way to do that is removing the bottom cover. Then you can check the voltages on the connection points at the rear end of the backplane(s). If needed, adjust the output voltage(s). Turn off, and wait (measure!) that all voltages have dropped to near zero. Install the boards again, connect a terminal and proceed ? Back to the 11/34A. I haven?t turned on my 11/34 for some time, so I forgot whether the 7-segment display has 6 or 7 digits. But what I do know is that they are always all 6 (or 7) on. If that is not the case, there is definitely something wrong. Van: cctech namens John Welch via cctech Verzonden: Saturday, December 9, 2017 12:49:01 AM Aan: Jerry Weiss; cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: Re: Revive 11/34 I also have an 11/04 that I went and drug out. It is configured like this: 11/04: ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... (Rear/Fans/Power Supply) 1 [M7263----------------] (Front/Keypad/DC ON) ........................ 2 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 3 [M7859--------] .................... ........................ 4 [M7847----------------] .................... ........................ 5 GNT .................... ........................ 6 [M7762----------------] .................... ........................ 7 [M7840----------------] .................... ........................ 8 [DILOG--------] .................... ........................ 9 {nothing} .................... ........................ AAA BBB CCC DDD EEE FFF .................... I am thinking I could put a M9203/M7856 into slot 9, and find a M9312 for slot 3 and maybe this would fire up. Any suggestions? On 12/8/2017 3:50 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > On Dec 8, 2017, at 2:25 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: >> I am reviving an 11/34. Cards are: >> >> Back/Fans [M8266--------] Front of machine where keypad is. >> >> [M8265--------] >> >> [M9312] [M7859] >> >> [M7762--------] >> >> [OPEN] [M7860] >> >> [M7840--------] >> >> Bus grant in third from front slot >> >> [M9302] [M7856] >> The 7856 is hooked to a cable/null modem (i think)/PC running XP&Hyperterminal >> >> When I first powered on the programmers console said '7' and I powered off, then back on, and now it says '5' >> >> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> :qw > > 1) The G727A bus grant card is keyed (somewhat). It should be in Row D (fourth from the back) > It won?t seat evenly if reversed. At least that is what my scraped knuckles remember. > > You can temporarily pull it out to finish the check out. There?s nothing past the > M7840 that requires DMA. > > 2) Check the baud rate, stop bits and parity settings on both the Hyperterminal and the M785 to make sure they match. > > 3) Are you seeing a single 7 or 5 on KY11-LB Programmer Console or on the Hyperterminal? > > An other status led?s lit on the KY11-LB? > > 4) I don?t see any memory listed? Do you have any M7847?s? > > 5) Grab a copy of EK-11034-UG-001 PDP-11-34 System User?s Manual for more info. > > > Jerry > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 9 13:25:37 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 19:25:37 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> Message-ID: <87374jg0um.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On Dec 8, 2017, at 5:17 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >> >>>> On Dec 8, 2017, at 12:53 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>> >>>>> On Fri, Dec 8, 2017 at 3:03 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> Manual says it should be S1=off, S2=on for RX211 and RXV21 >>>>> >>>>> In the photo, I think S1 is on and S2 is off. Check them with an >>>>> ohmmeter if in doubt! >>>>> >>>>> -tony >>>> >>>> Yes - you are right. I switched them back to how they were when I got >>>> the drive. I think one of the switches was half down because XXDP >>>> actually does something now. >>>> >>>> Most of the tests now look something like this: >>>> >>>> CZRXFB0 DVC FTL ERR 00034 ON UNIT 00 TST 031 SUB 000 PC: 003476 >>>> SECTOR ADR - LGC TST >>>> SECTOR ADDRESS ERROR >>>> EXPECTED SECTOR=18. >>>> TARGET SECTOR=17. >>>> >>>> I suppose these should match? >>>> >>>> Starting to think I might need to confuse myself with my logic analyzer >>>> and the RX02 control board. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Aaron. >>> >>> To isolate the problem further, try to see if any of the errors follow >>> the media as you move them between drives. >>> >>> If the same errors occur on both drives, regardless of media then the >>> RX02 system board or perhaps the Qbus controller are at fault. >>> The field maintenance prints should allow you to trace the fault down >>> a bit further, with or w/o a logic analyzer. >>> >>> How many different types of errors do you see? >>> >>> Jerry >> >> Thanks for the info Jerry. >> >> I get read errors, data errors, density errors, sector addressing >> errors. Probably every kind of error xxdp can give :) >> >> Please see this link if you are interested: >> >> https://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/o/48859c14f6a619a5316d6af37d60579c.txt >> >> I will take a proper look through the field manuals tomorrow, and also >> try what you suggested with trying the same media in both drives. >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. > > > When you have many errors it can be hard to separate the primary fault(s) from the knock-on errors. > The M7745/M7744 or Media Errors dominate the entries. > > 1) Try to verify the media is a DEC 8 Inch formatted RX02 or RX01 if you do not know the source of the > the disks. The disk should have only 1 hole punched for index on the media itself. Even if it is > a DEC Brand, there?s still possibility that the media has been exposed to strong magnetic fields. > > I have not seen much natural bit-rot on my floppy media, but YMMV. If could find someone local > with RX02 drives to confirm your media, that would also help rule out some things. > > Many third party drives and controllers that were DEC compatible also had the ability to do a > low level format of media, something the native RX02 did not. So if the media type is correct, but > the format is not, they may be salvageable (with complete loss of original data). > > 2) Check the connections between the drives and controllers. Gently clean contacts, especially anything > gold plated. Getting clean signals from the floppies is critical if the RW electronics are to function. > > 3) Try and contrast to the other drive as previously covered. > > This will help rule out a few things and provide some better direction. > > > Jerry Thanks Jerry. That was very helpful. Found a stray piece of metal lying across the board next to an AND gate, which is slightly disconcerting. Possibly a stray wire clipping. Both drives pass the diagnostics. It's strange though, if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the diagnostics, it fails. So, not sure. Will have to investigate a bit more. Thanks again, Aaron. From jsw at ieee.org Sat Dec 9 16:31:10 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 16:31:10 -0600 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87374jg0um.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87vahhl0sq.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87tvx1kq4x.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87o9n8lsgr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <23145BC4-AC4D-4D96-BFFB-8670D1DB5822@ieee.org> <87374jg0um.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <725B29A2-B017-4F49-9621-0A7A84BD496B@ieee.org> > On Dec 9, 2017, at 1:25 PM, Aaron Jackson wrote: > > Thanks Jerry. That was very helpful. Found a stray piece of metal lying > across the board next to an AND gate, which is slightly > disconcerting. Possibly a stray wire clipping. Both drives pass the > diagnostics. > > It's strange though, if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy > which passed the diagnostics, it fails. So, not sure. Will have to > investigate a bit more. > > Thanks again, > Aaron. Glad it all worked out. I can?t advise on the VTServer issue as I have not used it. Perhaps others can advise further. Have fun! Jerry From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 9 17:10:05 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 18:10:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <20171209231005.260B918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Aaron Jackson > if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the > diagnostics, it fails. My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one? (I need one for my own use, plus I want to look at the source, to help with this.) Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 9 17:19:46 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 09 Dec 2017 23:19:46 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <20171209231005.260B918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171209231005.260B918C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87zi6rebfx.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Noel Chiappa via cctalk writes: > > Aaron Jackson > > > if I try to dump using vtserver using a floppy which passed the > > diagnostics, it fails. > > My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer > directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one? > (I need one for my own use, plus I want to look at the source, to help > with this.) > > Noel I am using the version from here: https://github.com/sethm/vtserver/ It's likely that there is still an issue with reading the data, or the floppy is still bad but some how managed to pass the test anyway. Thanks, Aaron. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 17:52:09 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 18:52:09 -0500 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> Message-ID: <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the various wedges I have. I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a push to get it turning. Things checked: * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external ?? supplies does not help. * media checked for binding, it does not. ?When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. ?It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a manual push. At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have verified this is not so.?? If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque and no dead spots.? All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. Any thoughts? Allison From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 9 18:52:00 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 16:52:00 -0800 (PST) Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, allison via cctalk wrote: > I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the > various wedges I have. > I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. > The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a > push to get it turning. > Things checked: > * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). > * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external > ?? supplies does not help. > * media checked for binding, it does not. > ?When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. > ?It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a > manual push. > At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have verified > this is not so.?? If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque > and no > dead spots.? All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. > Any thoughts? How does it detect the presence of a disk? and/or disk change? Totally irrelevant to the matter at hand: BTW, how close to "industry standard" is the interface to the drive mechanism itself? Would it be practical to replace the mechanism with one of the 80 track (and also 2 sided?) Epson drives? Either the whole drive, if it is fairly "standard", or just the stepping mechanism if there is another Epson drive similar enough? Besides significant increase in capacity, it would simplify data interchange a bit. Although the track spacing is 67.5 tpi, instead of 135tpi, I wonder whether the track width is similarly different. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Dec 9 20:06:58 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 21:06:58 -0500 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 12/09/2017 07:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, allison via cctalk wrote: >> I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the >> various wedges I have. >> I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. >> The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a >> push to get it turning. >> Things checked: >> * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). >> * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external >> ?? supplies does not help. >> * media checked for binding, it does not. >> ?When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. >> ?It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a >> manual push. >> At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have >> verified >> this is not so.?? If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque >> and no >> dead spots.? All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. >> Any thoughts? > > How does it detect the presence of a disk??? and/or disk change? > > Functions normally save for the motor does not always turn on command but will if manually pushed.? All other functions are normal. > > Totally irrelevant to the matter at hand: > BTW, how close to "industry standard" is the interface to the drive > mechanism itself??? Would it be practical to replace the mechanism > with one of the 80 track (and also 2 sided?) Epson drives?? Either the > whole drive, if it is fairly "standard", or just the stepping > mechanism if there is another Epson drive similar enough? No its an oddball.? The read-wirite electronics are part of the intelligent mainboard that communicates with the pX-8 serially.? The only board that is part of the drive is the motor control. Its of the early 80s.?? It would be nice to build a replacement with more storage but the basic design is a 68B03, 2732 and 765 with read/write amps and filter on that board.??? It would be easier to start from scratch with an 8085 and a 37c65 but then that would require figuring out the protocol and patching the OS (CP/M-80 in Eprom) to accept the larger result.? If I were to do that I'd do a solidstate disk using CF or SD.? Its easier to do that using the PX-8 system bus (parallel data, address and Z80 controls). > Besides significant increase in capacity, it would simplify data > interchange a bit. > Although the track spacing is 67.5 tpi, instead of 135tpi, I wonder > whether the track width is similarly different. > Its not unlike the 5.25" situation with track width as in the the higher density drives have narrower heads.? Not unlike Sa450 and FD33GFR.? I can read the media with a standard drive by double stepping but to create media I have to first bulk erase and then write only every other track or it has a poor error rate. Allison From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Dec 9 20:14:47 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 18:14:47 -0800 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4EE8CB3E-6274-4E6C-9713-B14ED6D701D8@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-09, at 6:06 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: > On 12/09/2017 07:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, allison via cctalk wrote: >>> I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the >>> various wedges I have. >>> I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. >>> The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a >>> push to get it turning. >>> Things checked: >>> * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). >>> * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external >>> supplies does not help. >>> * media checked for binding, it does not. >>> When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. >>> It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a >>> manual push. >>> At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have >>> verified >>> this is not so. If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque >>> and no >>> dead spots. All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. >>> Any thoughts? >> >> How does it detect the presence of a disk? and/or disk change? >> >> > Functions normally save for the motor does not always turn on command > but will if manually pushed. All other functions are normal. How about a problem with the current supply to the motor, such as low gain in the driver. A progressive failure may be just on the edge of supplying enough current to keep it rotating, but not enough for startup torque. From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Dec 9 20:58:17 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 18:58:17 -0800 Subject: LA30 restore complete Message-ID: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Got the last replacement components I needed for my LA30 restore today, and finished it up! Here's a short video of the LA30 connected as console to my restored PDP-11/45: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIL2bvUYIs From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 9 21:31:06 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 9 Dec 2017 22:31:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Revive 11/34 Message-ID: <20171210033106.A39C718C088@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen > the M7859 is sort of a UNIBUS device. The (front panel) console only > communicates with the M7859. Not quite; it does _mostly_ 'do its thing' over the UNIBUS, but there are also two special lines carried across the DD11-P backplane to the CPU, 'Halt Request' and 'Halt Grant' (which is why it has to be in the same backplane as the CPU); more here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer%27s_Console > I cannot remember whether a demux for the displays is on the console > PCB, or on the M7859. I'm not sure exactly what you mean by 'demux', but... the interface between the board and console is i) 3 bits of digit, and ii) 6 individual select lines. Code in the micro on the M7859 sends one digit at a time down the 3 'digit' lines, along with the appropriate 'select' line. > If you get 000000 on the dsipaly and when halted it shows 173066 I > presume it is looping. Well, I haven't looked at the M9312 ROM code, but if it's anything like the M9301 code (which I have dumped and disassembled), looping in the ROM at 173066 is not necessarily bad. There is a listing of some of the ROM code on BitSavers: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/unibus/K-SP-M9312-0-5_Aug78.pdf but it doesn't seem to cover the stuff at 173000 (which is where the CPU starts running on power-on) - or maybe I just didn't study the listings carefully enough. > If it loops, it will repeatedly read from a device address which is > most likely the CSR of the boot device. Depends on the switch settings on the M9312. If it's set to boot, if the device is there, yes; otherwise it would get a NXM fault. If it's set to go into the console mode, it's probably trying to read characters (commands) from the console. Noel From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 00:26:45 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 06:26:45 +0000 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 2:06 AM, allison via cctalk wrote: Assuming it's the same as the one I worked on some years ago... >> How does it detect the presence of a disk? and/or disk change? It's a mechanical switch on the motor PCB. A similar switch detects the write-protect hole. >> >> > Functions normally save for the motor does not always turn on command > but will if manually pushed. All other functions are normal. > > >> >> Totally irrelevant to the matter at hand: >> BTW, how close to "industry standard" is the interface to the drive >> mechanism itself? Would it be practical to replace the mechanism >> with one of the 80 track (and also 2 sided?) Epson drives? Either the >> whole drive, if it is fairly "standard", or just the stepping >> mechanism if there is another Epson drive similar enough? > > No its an oddball. The read-wirite electronics are part of the > intelligent mainboard that communicates > with the pX-8 serially. The only board that is part of the drive is the > motor control. Assuming it's the same motor as the one I worked on : What is the voltage on the collector of Q18 (== emitters of Q15...Q17) when the motor should run but doesn't? If it's close to the supply rail then the problem is in the motor or commutation circuitry, if it is low then the problem is in the speed control or the motor is not being told to run. With the motor running, look at the waveforms on : Collectors of Q15...Q17 (drives to the motor windings) Pin 1,15,16 of IC13 (TA7745) (drives to those transistors) Pins 2...7 of IC13 (outputs of the hall sensorts that detect the motor position). In each case the 3 (or 6) signals should look much the same, if one is different or missing then the problem is in the motor commutation circuit. -tony From RichA at livingcomputers.org Sun Dec 10 02:21:40 2017 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 08:21:40 +0000 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs Message-ID: Happy DEC-10 Day! It is my honor to announce that we at Living Computers: Museum + Labs are releasing to the computing community our Massbus Disk Emulator and all the associated software. This device connects via Massbus cables to the RH10 and RH20 interfaces on KI-10 and KL-10 systems, to the RH11 interface on KS-10 and small PDP-11 systems (including the front end 11/40 on the KL-10), and to the RH70 on the PDP-11/70. The MDE provides up to 8 emulated RP06 or RP07 disks (represented by disk files in the format used by the SimH emulation of these systems). We expect that it will also work with the RH780 on the VAX-11/780 and VAX-11/785 although we have not yet tested it in this configuration. The original MDE was designed by Keith Perez in 2005, and emulated up to four RP06 drives connected to a KL-10. The current generation was a redesign by Bruce Sherry in conjunction with the restoration of our DECsystem-1070 in 2012, and initially provided eight RP06 drives on the RH10. It has undergone continual development, with associated software created for us by Bob Armstrong, and is now being opened up for the use of the relevant communities. To this end, we have placed the design files for the hardware and the source files for the software to interface with it, along with our library of Universal Peripheral Emulator routines, on public access repositories at Github. The URLs for these repositories are https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MDE2 https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MBS https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UPELIB These are released under a very liberal license which will allow for free use of the MDE by any interested party. Happy Dec-10 Day! Rich Richard Alderson, Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.livingcomputerss.org/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 10 03:31:58 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 09:31:58 -0000 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <005d01d37199$ba62f9e0$2f28eda0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich > Alderson via cctalk > Sent: 10 December 2017 08:22 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs > > Happy DEC-10 Day! > > It is my honor to announce that we at Living Computers: Museum + Labs are > releasing to the computing community our Massbus Disk Emulator and all the > associated software. This device connects via Massbus cables to the RH10 and > RH20 interfaces on KI-10 and KL-10 systems, to the RH11 interface on KS-10 > and small PDP-11 systems (including the front end 11/40 on the KL-10), and to > the RH70 on the PDP-11/70. The MDE provides up to 8 emulated RP06 or RP07 > disks (represented by disk files in the format used by the SimH emulation of > these systems). > > We expect that it will also work with the RH780 on the VAX-11/780 and > VAX-11/785 although we have not yet tested it in this configuration. > > The original MDE was designed by Keith Perez in 2005, and emulated up to four > RP06 drives connected to a KL-10. The current generation was a redesign by > Bruce Sherry in conjunction with the restoration of our > DECsystem-1070 in 2012, and initially provided eight RP06 drives on the RH10. > It has undergone continual development, with associated software created for > us by Bob Armstrong, and is now being opened up for the use of the relevant > communities. > > To this end, we have placed the design files for the hardware and the source > files for the software to interface with it, along with our library of Universal > Peripheral Emulator routines, on public access repositories at Github. The URLs > for these repositories are > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MDE2 > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MBS > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UPELIB > > These are released under a very liberal license which will allow for free use of > the MDE by any interested party. > > Happy Dec-10 Day! > > Rich > > > Richard Alderson, Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > Cell: (206) 465-2916 > Desk: (206) 342-2239 > > http://www.livingcomputerss.org/ All I need now is a PDP-10.... :-) From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 06:08:31 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 12:08:31 +0000 Subject: LA30 restore complete In-Reply-To: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> References: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Van: Fritz Mueller via cctalk Verzonden: zondag 10 december 2017 03:58 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: LA30 restore complete Got the last replacement components I needed for my LA30 restore today, and finished it up! Here's a short video of the LA30 connected as console to my restored PDP-11/45: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIL2bvUYIs That looks really nice. Thumbs up Fritz. One question: where did you find paper for this printer. It is not a ?standard? format ? From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 06:26:24 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 07:26:24 -0500 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: <4EE8CB3E-6274-4E6C-9713-B14ED6D701D8@shaw.ca> References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> <4EE8CB3E-6274-4E6C-9713-B14ED6D701D8@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <6abe172d-4c2f-39a5-7e73-7e3ddf7a28cf@gmail.com> On 12/09/2017 09:14 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-Dec-09, at 6:06 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/09/2017 07:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, allison via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the >>>> various wedges I have. >>>> I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. >>>> The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a >>>> push to get it turning. >>>> Things checked: >>>> * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). >>>> * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external >>>> supplies does not help. >>>> * media checked for binding, it does not. >>>> When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. >>>> It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a >>>> manual push. >>>> At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have >>>> verified >>>> this is not so. If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque >>>> and no >>>> dead spots. All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. >>>> Any thoughts? >>> How does it detect the presence of a disk? and/or disk change? >>> >>> >> Functions normally save for the motor does not always turn on command >> but will if manually pushed. All other functions are normal. > How about a problem with the current supply to the motor, such as low gain in the driver. > A progressive failure may be just on the edge of supplying enough current to keep it rotating, but not enough for startup torque. That was my thought and I checked, not the problem.? I suspect that the magnets in the rotor have gotten really weak. Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 10 08:27:32 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 14:27:32 +0000 Subject: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... In-Reply-To: <6abe172d-4c2f-39a5-7e73-7e3ddf7a28cf@gmail.com> References: <8D815794162A486BA4AEEC397668614B@Vincew7> <2296c79f-5812-1ba3-944e-8b717fa2e5c7@gmail.com> <4EE8CB3E-6274-4E6C-9713-B14ED6D701D8@shaw.ca>, <6abe172d-4c2f-39a5-7e73-7e3ddf7a28cf@gmail.com> Message-ID: If it were a 5.25, I'd say it was the floppy sticking in the jacket. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 10, 2017 4:26:24 AM To: Brent Hilpert via cctalk Subject: Re: Epson PX-8 specifically TF-10 problem... On 12/09/2017 09:14 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk wrote: > On 2017-Dec-09, at 6:06 PM, allison via cctalk wrote: >> On 12/09/2017 07:52 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>> On Sat, 9 Dec 2017, allison via cctalk wrote: >>>> I have several Epson PX-8s and i used them.. They work well with the >>>> various wedges I have. >>>> I also Have a PF-10 which is the portable 3.5" 40 track two side floppy. >>>> The problem is it randomly does not turn the media unless I give it a >>>> push to get it turning. >>>> Things checked: >>>> * Batteries, NEW fully charge (Both). >>>> * internal Power supplies, current voltage and bridged with external >>>> supplies does not help. >>>> * media checked for binding, it does not. >>>> When it turns it reads and writes correctly and at the correct speed. >>>> It may do so without help for many tries then will stop required a >>>> manual push. >>>> At first glance I though there were motor bearing issues but have >>>> verified >>>> this is not so. If I force motor on and restrain it I has good torque >>>> and no >>>> dead spots. All signals in the motor control look good on the scope. >>>> Any thoughts? >>> How does it detect the presence of a disk? and/or disk change? >>> >>> >> Functions normally save for the motor does not always turn on command >> but will if manually pushed. All other functions are normal. > How about a problem with the current supply to the motor, such as low gain in the driver. > A progressive failure may be just on the edge of supplying enough current to keep it rotating, but not enough for startup torque. That was my thought and I checked, not the problem. I suspect that the magnets in the rotor have gotten really weak. Allison From leec2124 at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 10:56:41 2017 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 08:56:41 -0800 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: <005d01d37199$ba62f9e0$2f28eda0$@ntlworld.com> References: <005d01d37199$ba62f9e0$2f28eda0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Very nice - thanks! Lee C. On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 1:31 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rich > > Alderson via cctalk > > Sent: 10 December 2017 08:22 > > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > > > Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs > > > > Happy DEC-10 Day! > > > > It is my honor to announce that we at Living Computers: Museum + Labs are > > releasing to the computing community our Massbus Disk Emulator and all > the > > associated software. This device connects via Massbus cables to the RH10 > and > > RH20 interfaces on KI-10 and KL-10 systems, to the RH11 interface on > KS-10 > > and small PDP-11 systems (including the front end 11/40 on the KL-10), > and > to > > the RH70 on the PDP-11/70. The MDE provides up to 8 emulated RP06 or > RP07 > > disks (represented by disk files in the format used by the SimH emulation > of > > these systems). > > > > We expect that it will also work with the RH780 on the VAX-11/780 and > > VAX-11/785 although we have not yet tested it in this configuration. > > > > The original MDE was designed by Keith Perez in 2005, and emulated up to > four > > RP06 drives connected to a KL-10. The current generation was a redesign > by > > Bruce Sherry in conjunction with the restoration of our > > DECsystem-1070 in 2012, and initially provided eight RP06 drives on the > RH10. > > It has undergone continual development, with associated software created > for > > us by Bob Armstrong, and is now being opened up for the use of the > relevant > > communities. > > > > To this end, we have placed the design files for the hardware and the > source > > files for the software to interface with it, along with our library of > Universal > > Peripheral Emulator routines, on public access repositories at Github. > The URLs > > for these repositories are > > > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MDE2 > > > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MBS > > > > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UPELIB > > > > These are released under a very liberal license which will allow for free > use of > > the MDE by any interested party. > > > > Happy Dec-10 Day! > > > > Rich > > > > > > Richard Alderson, Sr. Systems Engineer > > Living Computers: Museum + Labs > > 2245 1st Avenue S > > Seattle, WA 98134 > > > > Cell: (206) 465-2916 > > Desk: (206) 342-2239 > > > > http://www.livingcomputerss.org/ > > All I need now is a PDP-10.... > > :-) > > > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 10 10:59:20 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:59:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <20171210165920.1FDF218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Jackson >> My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer >> directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one? > I am using the version from here: https://github.com/sethm/vtserver/ After offline discussion with Aaron, we clarified that that site only has the binary for the standalone tools. The copy on the TUHS archive: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/v7_standalone.tar.gz although it has the source, doesn't include the RX driver. Does anyone know the whereabouts for the source for the (later) version of the standalone stuff, which includes the RX driver? Thanks! Noel From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 10 13:10:07 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 11:10:07 -0800 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4467E246-F370-4B34-B10D-2831AEB116F9@nf6x.net> > On Dec 10, 2017, at 00:21, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > > Happy DEC-10 Day! > > It is my honor to announce that we at Living Computers: Museum + Labs > are releasing to the computing community our Massbus Disk Emulator > and all the associated software. This is wonderful! And the timing of your announcement makes me giggle with delight. I don't have any Massbus equipment, but I still love this on general principle. > We expect that it will also work with the RH780 on the VAX-11/780 and > VAX-11/785 although we have not yet tested it in this configuration. If somebody would like to sell me a Massbus-equipped 780 or 785 system, I can test that out for y'all. :) -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 14:02:45 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:02:45 +0100 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > We expect that it will also work with the RH780 on the VAX-11/780 and > VAX-11/785 although we have not yet tested it in this configuration. Very interesting! What about using this emulator on a VAX-11/750 with a RH750 adapter? Is there anything in there that would prevent it working with the RH750? From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 14:08:09 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 21:08:09 +0100 Subject: LA30 restore complete In-Reply-To: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> References: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Message-ID: s?ndag 10 december 2017 skrev Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org>: > Got the last replacement components I needed for my LA30 restore today, > and finished it up! Here's a short video of the LA30 connected as console > to my restored PDP-11/45: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIL2bvUYIs > > > Well done! Yet another LA30 up and running! From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sun Dec 10 16:09:46 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 17:09:46 -0500 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 3:21 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote: > Happy DEC-10 Day! Indeed! > It is my honor to announce that we at Living Computers: Museum + Labs > are releasing to the computing community our Massbus Disk Emulator > and all the associated software. Very cool. I don't have any 36-bit hardware, but I do have a couple of 11/70s and 11/750s. I don't think I have any RH70s, but I do have one RH750 (it used to talk to a TU78 that I wasn't able to save 20 years ago). > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MDE2 > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/MBS > https://github.com/livingcomputermuseum/UPELIB I look forward to taking a stab at this. Thanks! -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 10 17:19:10 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 18:19:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs Message-ID: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > I look forward to taking a stab at this. I suspect there are a number of people who'd be interested in MASSBUS storage devices (e.g. me - suddenly all those RH11's I've got are no longer boat- anchors :-). We should try and organize an group build, to share the load. Anyone else interested? Oh, one detail I didn't look at: what's the physical interface this uses? Hopefully three of the Berg/DuPont connectors (i.e. what's on the RHxx boards, with flat cables going to the adapter to the standard MASSBUS connector, a device rejoicing in the name 'Receptacle Housing Assembly'); the original MASSBUS cables (along with the 'Receptacle Housing Assembly' are now rare as hen's teeth). And there's also the MASSBUS termination... Noel From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 00:14:50 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 16:14:50 +1000 Subject: just got my psion about a week ago Message-ID: <5273dc51-1937-5cc5-9ec4-692210b026e2@gmail.com> I just got my psion (5mx pro) about a week ago, I am wondering is there are Psion community that I can ask questions From fritzm at fritzm.org Mon Dec 11 01:47:31 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sun, 10 Dec 2017 23:47:31 -0800 Subject: LA30 restore complete In-Reply-To: References: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Hi Henk, On 12/10/2017 04:08 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > One question: where did you find paper for this printer. > It is not a ?standard? format ? I have about a third of a box of paper that came with the LA30 when I picked it up from surplus many years ago. I've ordered a new box of paper from labeloutfitters.com (if you search "9-7/8" on their site they seem to have green bar and blank). This was something Mattis had searched out. Price was reasonable, but the shipping was expensive :-( I'll post again after I receive the paper if its the right thing. cheers, --FritzM. From useddec at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 02:03:42 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 02:03:42 -0600 Subject: LA30 restore complete In-Reply-To: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> References: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Very nice! The LA30 and ADVENT both bring back memories... On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Got the last replacement components I needed for my LA30 restore today, > and finished it up! Here's a short video of the LA30 connected as console > to my restored PDP-11/45: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIL2bvUYIs > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 11 03:45:35 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 10:45:35 +0100 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20171211094534.GE32723@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 06:19:10PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Ethan Dicks > > > I look forward to taking a stab at this. > > I suspect there are a number of people who'd be interested in MASSBUS storage > devices (e.g. me - suddenly all those RH11's I've got are no longer boat- > anchors :-). We should try and organize an group build, to share the load. > Anyone else interested? > I am and possibly the Update computer club and some of it's members. However, I have very little experience with making hardware. How would we aproach this? (This is very good news, the chance of getting my 2020 running by year 2020 is now a lot bigger. Also, as I've stated elsewhere, thank you to LCM and everyone involved!) Regards, Pontus. From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 11 07:59:46 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:59:46 -0500 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: <20171211094534.GE32723@Update.UU.SE> References: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20171211094534.GE32723@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <7FE30CBD-2E47-436F-A957-3A88CA6C5935@comcast.net> > On Dec 11, 2017, at 4:45 AM, Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 06:19:10PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> From: Ethan Dicks >> >>> I look forward to taking a stab at this. >> >> I suspect there are a number of people who'd be interested in MASSBUS storage >> devices (e.g. me - suddenly all those RH11's I've got are no longer boat- >> anchors :-). We should try and organize an group build, to share the load. >> Anyone else interested? >> > > I am and possibly the Update computer club and some of it's members. > However, I have very little experience with making hardware. How would > we aproach this? There are plenty of companies in the "prototype production" business; they will make either blank printed circuit boards, or assembled boards, in small quantities. For our purposes a group build probably counts as "small quantity". One I can think of (and have used for blank PCBs) is PCB Pool. Depending on the parts involved and the skill level of the consumers, it may be reasonable to get blank boards and a parts bag and have the user assemble it -- or it may be better to let professionals do the assembly. paul From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Dec 11 09:51:56 2017 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 15:51:56 +0000 Subject: LA30 restore complete In-Reply-To: References: <71ee40dd-e351-1f4c-bc07-490063b1fbca@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <83D032FC-A109-490D-8D9E-036CFFFAD937@swri.edu> On Dec 11, 2017, at 2:03 AM, Paul Anderson via cctalk wrote: > Very nice! The LA30 and ADVENT both bring back memories... > > On Sat, Dec 9, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Got the last replacement components I needed for my LA30 restore today, >> and finished it up! Here's a short video of the LA30 connected as console >> to my restored PDP-11/45: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gMIL2bvUYIs Beautiful! Thank you for the video and congratulations on the restoration! I never got to use the console on the University PDP, we didn?t want to waste paper and we had electronic terminals by then - 2 disagreeable generics and a *gorgeous* Tektronix 4025 (sic?) as well as the hi-res Tek 4010. Semi-related, I have about a 4 cm. stack of fan-folded faded green bar in my office that I won?t use. Free for shipping from Texas, area code 78254. - Mark From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 07:15:24 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:15:24 -0500 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: > >> > >> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in backwards. I have other boards I can try. > >> For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO? If so and you don't get the correct reading that's a show stopper right there. Remove all but the essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least RAM. I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the 11/40. Many cards interchangable. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 07:56:58 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 08:56:58 -0500 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: Ray Fantini knows the 11/34 very well https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU8DOKVxDJ8 He helped me with UNIBUS diagnosis. I am sure you have seen this: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1134/ I would definitely start with the power supply and work my way through the voltage regulators, etc. If you already did this, I apologize for missing that you mentioned. BIll On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 8:15 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > >> > > >> Any suggestions as to what to try first? I may have the bus grant in > backwards. I have other boards I can try. > > >> > > For an 11/34A can one test for DC LO / AC LO? If so and you don't get the > correct reading that's a show stopper right there. Remove all but the > essential cards, terminate the UNIBUS to the shortest poss. size and least > RAM. I no longer have an 11/34A but there are a lot of similarities to the > 11/40. Many cards interchangable. > > Bill > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Dec 11 12:50:34 2017 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:50:34 +0100 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: <7FE30CBD-2E47-436F-A957-3A88CA6C5935@comcast.net> References: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20171211094534.GE32723@Update.UU.SE> <7FE30CBD-2E47-436F-A957-3A88CA6C5935@comcast.net> Message-ID: <20171211185034.GG32723@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 08:59:46AM -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > I am and possibly the Update computer club and some of it's members. > > However, I have very little experience with making hardware. How would > > we aproach this? > > There are plenty of companies in the "prototype production" business; they will make either blank printed circuit boards, or assembled boards, in small quantities. For our purposes a group build probably counts as "small quantity". One I can think of (and have used for blank PCBs) is PCB Pool. > > Depending on the parts involved and the skill level of the consumers, it may be reasonable to get blank boards and a parts bag and have the user assemble it -- or it may be better to let professionals do the assembly. > I'm quite confident with a soldering iron when it comes to through hole components. I haven't looked at the BOM for this project yet but I guess there are surface mount components. Perhaps an opportunity to learn. /P From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:49:34 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 12:49:34 -0700 Subject: Dec-10 Day announcement from Living Computers: Museum + Labs In-Reply-To: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171210231910.C125D18C08C@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 10, 2017 at 4:19 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Oh, one detail I didn't look at: what's the physical interface this uses? > Hopefully three of the Berg/DuPont connectors (i.e. what's on the RHxx > boards, with flat cables going to the adapter to the standard MASSBUS > connector, a device rejoicing in the name 'Receptacle Housing Assembly'); > the > original MASSBUS cables (along with the 'Receptacle Housing Assembly' are > now > rare as hen's teeth). And there's also the MASSBUS termination... > It uses three 40-pin dual-row headers, so you can cable it to a real Massbus connector (RHA), or you might be able to cable it directly to the Berg headers of a DEC Massbus adapter. From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 14:45:00 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 21:45:00 +0100 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive Message-ID: Hello! I am about to start with the project to archive disks from the Incoterm system. This system makes use of the Memorex 651 drive which is somewhat odd. It has 64 tracks,is hard sectored with 32 sectors and spins at 375 rpm. But I do have the drive which hopefully still is working. However the interface connector is nothing like I seen on a floppy drive before. https://i.imgur.com/TklddLP.jpg It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. The mating 202516-1 which I need is still in production and available for purchase from Mouser. The small coaxial connectors on the other hand has a minimum order of 1000 units and costs 10 euros each... https://www.mouser.se/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/201146-2/?qs=DuOyNqEZh0%252bSNT4sy6om8Q== Does anyone know of a source selling something like three coaxial connectors like this at decent price? Or maybe a suggestion for another connector that could be modified into fit somehow? Potentially using glue to fixate it. Of course the last resort is to just solder some wires directly onto the drive PCB, but if there is a nice solution I try that first. From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 15:53:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 13:53:25 -0800 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56f31101-4ff2-ff6a-7f4a-844c72c00322@sydex.com> On 12/11/2017 12:45 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Or maybe a suggestion for another connector that could be modified into fit > somehow? Potentially using glue to fixate it. I wonder if you could re-work the drive to use a standard 13W3 connector? --Chuck From steven at malikoff.com Mon Dec 11 16:01:37 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:01:37 +1000 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <2abb3b22332ef0181e4d185855a06e29.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Mattis said > Hello! > > I am about to start with the project to archive disks from the Incoterm > system. > > This system makes use of the Memorex 651 drive which is somewhat odd. It > has 64 tracks,is hard sectored with 32 sectors and spins at 375 rpm. > > But I do have the drive which hopefully still is working. However the > interface connector is nothing like I seen on a floppy drive before. > > https://i.imgur.com/TklddLP.jpg > > > It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. The mating 202516-1 which I need is still in > production and available for purchase from Mouser. The small coaxial > connectors on the other hand has a minimum order of 1000 units and costs 10 > euros each... > > https://www.mouser.se/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/201146-2/?qs=DuOyNqEZh0%252bSNT4sy6om8Q== > > Does anyone know of a source selling something like three coaxial > connectors like this at decent price? > > Or maybe a suggestion for another connector that could be modified into fit > somehow? Potentially using glue to fixate it. > > Of course the last resort is to just solder some wires directly onto the > drive PCB, but if there is a nice solution I try that first. > That connector looks a bit similar to the Winchester MRACs apart from the addition of some larger holes and pins for the coax connectors. Your second link didn't work for me but looking at the first pic, perhaps you could bodge something up out of a piece of K&S brass rod and tubing, with some tubing spacer from a suitable dia body eg. a ballpoint pen. For the connector body, it could be 3d printed, or make a paper rubbing and drill a block of plastic, or simply fix the makeshift pins in then cut spacing strips of plastic to slip through the rows and then bind and cover with epoxy. I made a quick stopgap power connector for testing an Amiga 500 by soldering the leads of a discarded rack server power supply to 5 small nails, worked just fine. Steve. From lproven at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 16:12:02 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 23:12:02 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Latest updates... I've taken the downloads for Enhanced DR-DOS 7.01-6 and 7.01-7, trimmed the boot disk image to work with Virtualbox, added the actual files to make the boot images bootable, and also added in the other updated commands -- SYS.COM, XCOPY, TASKMGR, SHARE, and their README files etc. I've re-zipped them and put them on Dropbox. Here are the links: 7.01-6: https://www.dropbox.com/s/fr8ugx1r7yjczu5/dr70106b.zip?dl=0 7.01-7: https://www.dropbox.com/s/tu998h4a7tufpf3/dr70107b.zip?dl=0 and the previous one, as before... 7.01-8 WIP: https://www.dropbox.com/s/cz8nrdv7h4sgr6o/drdep7018.zip?dl=0 By all means please mirror these elsewhere. To use them, the easiest way is to get a copy of DR-DOS 7.01, e.g. http://www.bttr-software.de/freesoft/os.htm https://winworldpc.com/product/dr-dos/7x Install in a VM. Reboot. Boot from my boot disk image, SYS the hard disk, and copy the other files into C:\DOS or whatever you called it. I will follow with complete VM images in time, but I'm back at work after 7 weeks off sick, and I'm just too tired at the moment. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 16:21:24 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 22:21:24 +0000 Subject: Canon BN22 Laptop manual, anyone? Message-ID: <3795A59F-5C97-4DB3-B3A0-6F4883E49AF0@gmail.com> Hi folks, I?ve been contacted by someone looking for the user guide for this particular beast, an early 90s mono laptop with built-in printer. The usual searches turn up nothing other than pictures and she says she?s found a PDF but in German. Any clues? ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Dec 11 16:28:17 2017 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 22:28:17 +0000 (GMT) Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, 11 Dec 2017, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. The mating 202516-1 which I need is still in > production and available for purchase from Mouser. The small coaxial > connectors on the other hand has a minimum order of 1000 units and costs 10 > euros each... > > https://www.mouser.se/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/201146-2/?qs=DuOyNqEZh0%252bSNT4sy6om8Q== > > Does anyone know of a source selling something like three coaxial > connectors like this at decent price? A quick Internet search returns this link: and they both claim to have this part in stock and sell it in arbitrary quantities, although they do not seem to do retail sales. You might try contacting them regardless outlining what your problem is and they might be willing to help. NB I have nothing to do with them; it's just a generic attempt to help. Maciej From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 17:18:53 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 18:18:53 -0500 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 Message-ID: Someone just dropped off a mac g3 at the scrapyard I work at and I picked it up. It has a failing hard drive. Replaced the drive, downloaded and burned a disk with mac os 8 on it, but it refuses to boot to it. How do I go about installing the software on this machine? Not sure if this is the place to ask, but figured it would be worth a shot. Thanks. From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 17:35:19 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 23:35:19 +0000 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> > On 11 Dec 2017, at 23:18, devin davison via cctalk wrote: > > Someone just dropped off a mac g3 at the scrapyard I work at and I picked it up. > It has a failing hard drive. Replaced the drive, downloaded and burned > a disk with mac os 8 on it, but it refuses to boot to it. How do I go > about installing the software on this machine? > > Not sure if this is the place to ask, but figured it would be worth a > shot. Thanks. Hi Devin, Going from memory you need to press ?C? to boot from CD and you might also need to replace the PRAM battery. Cheers ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards binarydinosaurs.co.uk facebook.com/binarydinosaurs From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 11 17:54:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 15:54:00 -0800 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> On 12/11/2017 03:35 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > Going from memory you need to press ?C? to boot from CD and you might also need to replace the PRAM battery. > I'll second the bit about the PRAM battery. I've got one of these beige G3 boxes and can affirm that a failing PRAM battery can create all sorts of strange havoc, including not powering on at all. Note that said battery is 3.6V, so a CR2032 won't do it. --Chuck From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 19:04:56 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:04:56 -0500 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> Message-ID: Battery does not appear to ahve leaked but is planned to be replaced. I was unaware of having to press a key to boot to cd. Ill give it a go. Thanks for the quick response. --Devin On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/11/2017 03:35 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > >> Going from memory you need to press ?C? to boot from CD and you might also need to replace the PRAM battery. >> > > I'll second the bit about the PRAM battery. I've got one of these > beige G3 boxes and can affirm that a failing PRAM battery can create all > sorts of strange havoc, including not powering on at all. > > Note that said battery is 3.6V, so a CR2032 won't do it. > > --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Dec 11 19:52:25 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:52:25 -0500 Subject: TI 99/4a It Lives! but extended basic? acts bizzare...Help? Message-ID: <3e3327.1be736cf.47609059@aol.com> TI 99/4a It Lives! but extended basic? acts bizarre... Great got the video cable 5 bucks from the UK - -SOLVED! Works and fires up with out the extended basic plugged in but when I pluged it in and selected the option for extended basic at book up just hangs no prompt on screen etc. I have the screed that TI had that was more of an industrial display rather than the screen that was converted TV that may have been earlier.. Heavy little monitor! It has a strong mesh looking internal mask on the screen compared to modern color CRTS/ We also have a Epson looking printer with TI logo to pair up The goal of course is to set up as a display at SMECC Museum with some of the other micros where it can be demo'ed I have the speech module too but have no idea what to do with that. Have a disc with cable but need some sort of an expansion to plug it in. The adventure continues... as always drop any ideas hits etc to us/// Learning as we go As I never used or sold any of these when in the biz back then! Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Dec 11 20:28:33 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:28:33 -0600 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A2F3ED1.3050202@pico-systems.com> On 12/11/2017 02:45 PM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > Hello! > > I am about to start with the project to archive disks from the Incoterm > system. > > This system makes use of the Memorex 651 drive which is somewhat odd. It > has 64 tracks,is hard sectored with 32 sectors and spins at 375 rpm. > > But I do have the drive which hopefully still is working. However the > interface connector is nothing like I seen on a floppy drive before. > > https://i.imgur.com/TklddLP.jpg > > > It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. I buy some M-style connector housings from Newark in the US, and they sell them in single quantity. I think Newark has EU branches as well. This housing is a smaller version from the same series. Jon From chd at chdickman.com Mon Dec 11 21:29:39 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 22:29:39 -0500 Subject: All I want for Christmas is an RK8E Message-ID: About 15 years ago I told my girlfriend I wanted an RX8E controller board for Christmas. I was curious how far she might go to get it for me. I ended up with two packages: one from her 8 year old daughter with a bit of 1x8 pine plank (If he wants a board, I'll get him a board!), the other package was an M8357 that she probably paid way to much for... Now the girlfriend is my wife and the daughter is getting married. This Christmas I am asking for an RK8E. I doubt it can be found at a reseller. So does anyone have or know of an OMNIBUS RK8E boardset they are willing to part with? This is an M7104, M7105, and M7106 along with 4 over-the-top edge connector blocks. I have two RK05 drives for a PDP-11, but my goal is to build an RK05 emulator based on Dave Gesswein's ST506 disk emulator. Merry Christmas, -chuck From rtomek at ceti.pl Mon Dec 11 22:25:24 2017 From: rtomek at ceti.pl (Tomasz Rola) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 05:25:24 +0100 Subject: DR-DOS In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171212042524.GA8788@tau1.ceti.pl> On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 11:12:02PM +0100, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Latest updates... > > I've taken the downloads for Enhanced DR-DOS 7.01-6 and 7.01-7, > trimmed the boot disk image to work with Virtualbox, added the actual > files to make the boot images bootable, and also added in the other > updated commands -- SYS.COM, XCOPY, TASKMGR, SHARE, and their README > files etc. > > I've re-zipped them and put them on Dropbox. Cool. I hope I will have some time in not very distant future to try it and see what it is like. Alas, it can happen in January, perhaps... -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home ** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_rola at bigfoot.com ** From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Dec 11 23:01:07 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 21:01:07 -0800 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: <5A2F3ED1.3050202@pico-systems.com> References: <5A2F3ED1.3050202@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4ccc2a7e-8afb-c9b0-7958-0f68b0108a65@jwsss.com> Isn't Element 14 the UK version of Newark? On 12/11/2017 6:28 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: >> >> It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. > I buy some M-style connector housings from Newark in the US, and they > sell them in single quantity. > I think Newark has EU branches as well.? This housing is a smaller > version from the same series. > > Jon From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Dec 11 13:50:11 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 20:50:11 +0100 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: There has been plenty of good suggestions already. If I were you I would: 1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously. 2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned. 3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the M7859 programmers console. 4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is OK. (http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console) 5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the programmers console to probe it. 6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console. 7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 777776 and the internal registers starting at 777700. Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the CPU is present or running. But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is my story : http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04---s-n-ag03092 From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Dec 11 21:16:49 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 19:16:49 -0800 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> Message-ID: Check the date code on the 'new' battery, there are quite a few sellers that will sell you a battery 10 years old. Fry's is a perfect example. -pete On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 5:04 PM, devin davison via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Battery does not appear to ahve leaked but is planned to be replaced. > I was unaware of having to press a key to boot to cd. Ill give it a > go. > Thanks for the quick response. > > --Devin > > On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: > > On 12/11/2017 03:35 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: > > > > > >> Going from memory you need to press ?C? to boot from CD and you might > also need to replace the PRAM battery. > >> > > > > I'll second the bit about the PRAM battery. I've got one of these > > beige G3 boxes and can affirm that a failing PRAM battery can create all > > sorts of strange havoc, including not powering on at all. > > > > Note that said battery is 3.6V, so a CR2032 won't do it. > > > > --Chuck > > From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 00:26:09 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 22:26:09 -0800 Subject: Cleaning out a desk drawer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21a175d6-4d38-4a47-66e3-a5962caeecaa@sydex.com> I've got some old evaluation/development kits available for adoption. None is really anciet, but all offered as a unit to a good home. 1 Rabbit 2000 devkit with CD-ROM, wall wart and serial dongle 2 Digilent UNO Pic32 dev board 1 TI ez430-F2013 (MSP430) devkit (just small USB gizmo) with CD None has been used much--purchased mostly to see what was out there 15 or so years ago... Anyone want this stuff? You can have it for shipping, otherwise it joins the big eCycle pile. --Chuck From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 00:55:51 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Mon, 11 Dec 2017 22:55:51 -0800 Subject: FS: Tektronix 4051, Signetics Instructor 50, Tempest ThinkJet & more! Message-ID: I've just listed more items for sale in the VCFed forums. The following is a summary: Tektronix 4051 complete working system http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61006-Tektronix-40 51-complete-system Signetics Instructor 50 http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61031-Signetics-Instructor-50-in-original-box-with-manuals-working&p=489065#post489065 Homebrew Data Terminal http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61009-Homebrew-Data-Terminal Apple Mouse //c http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61010-Apple-Mouse- c-in-original-box-with-software DSP225 Tempest InkJet Printer (HP 2225A) http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61011-DSP225-Tempe st-InkJet-Printer-(HP-ThinkJet-2225A) I have also posted the following items to my growing sale inventory: Commodore 128 - in original box (decent shape); computer is yellowed; includes power supply, Commodore 128 Introductory Guide, 2-button Commodore mouse - $100 Commodore 1571 - in original box (water damage and dents on top); typical yellowing; includes data and power cables - $40 Buy both of the above together - $125 AppleCD SC - excellent condition, in original box (nice condition, fairly clean) - $100 IBM 1501492 MFM hard disk controller - $15 IBM 1501486 Color Graphics adaptor - $25 NEC PC-8201A User's Guide, N82-BASIC Reference Manual, Personal Application Kit Guide - sell as set for $20 Additional information and prior unsold inventory lists are here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=488904#post488904 As always, please send inquiries to me directly via e-mail at < sellam.ismail at gmail.com>. Counteroffers welcome. Thanks! Sellam From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 04:22:37 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:22:37 +0100 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > A quick Internet search returns this link: > > connectivity-amp/201146-2.html> > > and they both claim to have this part in stock and sell it in arbitrary > quantities, although they do not seem to do retail sales. You might try > contacting them regardless outlining what your problem is and they might > be willing to help. > > NB I have nothing to do with them; it's just a generic attempt to help. > > Maciej > Well. I am a bit sceptical against all those "components vendors" that popups when googling. Usually they actually don't have the component. If they had it why bother about inquiry? Why not just sell it? Anyway there are some evidence that buy-components is a scam: http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/buy-components/internet/buy-components-took-order-and-required-payment-before-shipment-and-now-will-not-respond-t-1400043 https://www.trustpilot.com/review/buy-components.com There seem to be very few real surplus sellers out there. I have dealt with www.electronicsurplus.com and www.surplussales.com earlier without any problem. They are a companies that actually sell stuff.. Unfortunately they don't have it. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 12 04:34:17 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 02:34:17 -0800 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34537306-c3ee-7e0d-fa66-0077070be156@jwsss.com> On 12/12/2017 2:22 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: >> A quick Internet search returns this link: >> >> > connectivity-amp/201146-2.html> >> >> and they both claim to have this part in stock and sell it in arbitrary >> quantities, although they do not seem to do retail sales. You might try >> contacting them regardless outlining what your problem is and they might >> be willing to help. >> >> NB I have nothing to do with them; it's just a generic attempt to help. >> >> Maciej >> > > Well. I am a bit sceptical against all those "components vendors" that > popups when googling. Usually they actually don't have the component. If > they had it why bother about inquiry? Why not just sell it? Anyway there > are some evidence that buy-components is a scam: > > http://www.ripoffreport.com/reports/buy-components/internet/buy-components-took-order-and-required-payment-before-shipment-and-now-will-not-respond-t-1400043 > https://www.trustpilot.com/review/buy-components.com > > There seem to be very few real surplus sellers out there. I have dealt with > www.electronicsurplus.com and www.surplussales.com earlier without any > problem. They are a companies that actually sell stuff.. Unfortunately they > don't have it. I've dealt with friends who have been selling parts in the mode of what you'd call "schlock" parts forever.? In their case no rebranding or any of the foolishness going on now What they do deal with is that when they get a request (such as when you submit your request), they will send out the request if they don't stock the parts to a network of associates.? They will respond if they have it.? In my friends case, they've been in the business for 40 years, and one of the brothers selling IC's and the like for nearly 50. If you hit any one of them, you will likely hit all of them, since the request you send in is shared. I always send my business thru my friend, to be sure I don't have a problem, but others probably have not had the connections like that. For this part, by the way, you might try electromavin.? He's been buying parts for at least 40 years I know of, and would probably know your part, and if he doesn't have it would be an excellent source to hit the network of connector parts vendors. The site and contact for him is here http://www.mavin.com/ A scary thing, he may be retiring, as are a lot of these, and the stocks will likely not be saved from the final trip to the gold scrappers.? (who sold them a lot of the parts in the first place). I know he is currently selling parts, as a friend is building up a lot of HP test equipment test cable sets for a number of instruments he is bringing up, and the sort of winchester looking connector you have there, he has in stock.? Also the Canon d-sub body stuff. Thanks Jim From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 05:29:17 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:29:17 -0200 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> Message-ID: I have a pair of beige G3, checklist: - PULL the battery. if it is drained, it sometimes won't boot. Sometimes even won't power on! - Take care with the plastics, they're brittle - The CD **ON THE POWERMAC G3** can be of any brand to boot (most macs need an Apple branded CD!). So if you won't boot, probably the cd-romd river is gone. Change it for any working IDE drive. - Use MacOS 9. Anything else? Em 11/12/2017 23:04, devin davison via cctalk escreveu: > Battery does not appear to ahve leaked but is planned to be replaced. > I was unaware of having to press a key to boot to cd. Ill give it a > go. > Thanks for the quick response. > > --Devin > > On Mon, Dec 11, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> On 12/11/2017 03:35 PM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote: >> >> >>> Going from memory you need to press ?C? to boot from CD and you might also need to replace the PRAM battery. >>> >> >> I'll second the bit about the PRAM battery. I've got one of these >> beige G3 boxes and can affirm that a failing PRAM battery can create all >> sorts of strange havoc, including not powering on at all. >> >> Note that said battery is 3.6V, so a CR2032 won't do it. >> >> --Chuck > . > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 07:19:39 2017 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:19:39 -0400 Subject: cclist@sydex.com In-Reply-To: <21a175d6-4d38-4a47-66e3-a5962caeecaa@sydex.com> References: <21a175d6-4d38-4a47-66e3-a5962caeecaa@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5dd8db18-62b1-2e03-003a-84fb8eab30c3@gmail.com> Hi Chuck, If no one else has put up their hand, I will take these items. Paul. On 2017-12-12 2:26 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > I've got some old evaluation/development kits available for adoption. > None is really anciet, but all offered as a unit to a good home. > > 1 Rabbit 2000 devkit with CD-ROM, wall wart and serial dongle > 2 Digilent UNO Pic32 dev board > 1 TI ez430-F2013 (MSP430) devkit (just small USB gizmo) with CD > > None has been used much--purchased mostly to see what was out there 15 > or so years ago... > > Anyone want this stuff? You can have it for shipping, otherwise it > joins the big eCycle pile. > > --Chuck From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 08:45:23 2017 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 12:45:23 -0200 Subject: Amiga Power Connector. Was: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: <2abb3b22332ef0181e4d185855a06e29.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <2abb3b22332ef0181e4d185855a06e29.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > I made a quick stopgap power connector for testing an Amiga 500 by soldering the leads > of a discarded rack server power supply to 5 small nails, worked just fine. A small bit of info that may (or may not) interest you: The strange female connector soldered on pcb of any amiga computer can be xchanged by a DIN-8 PCB female connector. Just unsolder the square beast, and solder the common DIN-8. I have to do this in mostly all power-supply-less amigas I get in Brazil :( Maybe you're interested in this small piece of info :) From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 09:33:12 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 07:33:12 -0800 Subject: Cleaning out a desk drawer In-Reply-To: <2c3b7405-2164-b5e7-2bd2-24cbbfc4be34@ekoan.com> References: <21a175d6-4d38-4a47-66e3-a5962caeecaa@sydex.com> <2c3b7405-2164-b5e7-2bd2-24cbbfc4be34@ekoan.com> Message-ID: <27c594bc-c467-0226-76ce-42892918c27d@sydex.com> The MCUs devkits have been claimed, with backups. Thanks all for your interest. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 09:37:21 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 07:37:21 -0800 Subject: FA: HP 7970 cable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <64c6009b-20d2-9d70-f58f-7978e03bf3b6@sydex.com> While I"m trying to clean house a little bit, does anyone need the cable set for an HP 7970 tape drive? This is the "octopus" cable with three 24-position (48 lines) connectors on one end (read, write and control) and the double-24-position connector on the host end. About 20' long. It'd be a shame to scrap it, if someone actually needed it. Free for shipping. --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 07:01:34 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 08:01:34 -0500 Subject: Revive 11/34 In-Reply-To: References: <3c3d5c41-2936-22a7-11fa-1ef7da325328@hal-pc.org> <3631F39C-AD59-402D-8EDC-D6DC4D96AD86@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Dec 12, 2017 3:41 AM, "Mattis Lind via cctech" wrote: > > There has been plenty of good suggestions already. > > If I were you I would: > > 1. Check voltages from the PSU as mentioned previously. > 2. Check AC LO / DC LO signals as Bill mentioned. > 3. Strip out every card on the bus except of the terminator boards and the > M7859 programmers console. > 4. Put the console in maintenance mode and check that the BUS itself is OK. > (http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-1134-programmers-console) > 5. Add more cards, like serial board M7856 or whatever and then use the > programmers console to probe it. > 6. Add memory and check a few locations from the programmers console. > 7. Add the CPU and check that you can read the PSW register at 777776 and > the internal registers starting at 777700. > > Since the programmers console has its own 8008 on board it is a quite > powerful tool to diagnose the Unibus and the peripherals even without the > CPU is present or running. > > But note that the M7859 might fail. One of my M7859 had failed and it took > a while to repair. OC drivers, flip flops and registers was bad. Here is my > story : > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04---s-n-ag03092 Here's one more... if possible find a working 11/34 and perform a diagnostic procedure or measurement there and take notes, then repeat on your system. That, and swapping known-working boards when available will help pinpoint problems where they exist. Bill From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 11:23:42 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 09:23:42 -0800 Subject: FA: HP 7970 cable In-Reply-To: <64c6009b-20d2-9d70-f58f-7978e03bf3b6@sydex.com> References: <64c6009b-20d2-9d70-f58f-7978e03bf3b6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9c44dcbd-0d68-b94b-3758-b85e68a360f2@sydex.com> Got a taker with backup, thanks! --Chuck From lproven at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 11:34:04 2017 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 18:34:04 +0100 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12 December 2017 at 12:29, Alexandre Souza via cctalk wrote: I'd only disagree with 1 bit of this. > - Use MacOS 9. They run 10.2 fine and can be coaxed into 10.3 quite readily with XPostFacto. They will take any standard ATA hard disk. Stick in one of up to 128GB -- they run into problems with drives bigger than that -- and dual-boot both MacOS 9.2.2 and OS X. (OS X must go inside the first 8GB of the drive. I think MacOS 9 doesn't care.) OS X is _far_ more internet-capable and it can read and write almost any old CD or DVD-ROM and happily read and write USB keys (if you stick a cheap commodity USB2 or USB2+Firewire PCI card in there). They use PC100 SD-RAM too, so 192MB - 384MB RAM is easy -- almost any old 64MB or 128MB DIMMs will work. With certain very special DIMMs you can have 3 x 256MB for 768MB RAM, but they are hard to find. Although they make a very fast Classic MacOS box and a fairly slow OS X one, I found it very worthwhile to have OS X on there, even if just for downloading all the various tools and things you need to get Classic MacOS running nicely. http://lowendmac.com/1997/beige-power-mac-g3-1997/ http://lowendmac.com/1998/beige-power-mac-g3-1998/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 ? ?R/WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal: +420 702 829 053 From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 12 12:23:39 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 10:23:39 -0800 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: References: <9EFCA3A0-5286-4496-9CC7-55E5284AE7BC@gmail.com> <7f2bd609-f2ce-1113-d37e-b7e245488cb1@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 12/12/2017 09:34 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Although they make a very fast Classic MacOS box and a fairly slow OS > X one, I found it very worthwhile to have OS X on there, even if just > for downloading all the various tools and things you need to get > Classic MacOS running nicely. > > http://lowendmac.com/1997/beige-power-mac-g3-1997/ > > http://lowendmac.com/1998/beige-power-mac-g3-1998/ I've run 10.3 on mine; yes, it's very slow--and you're best advised to allocate plenty of disk space if you opt for the complete set of CDs, including the development tools. While you could fit 9.x comfortably on a 250 MB drive, that's not the case for OS X. Also (please correct me if I'm wrong), you lose the integrated floppy access. --Chuck From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 12 12:26:20 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 10:26:20 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: from Chuck Guzis via cctalk at "Dec 12, 17 10:23:39 am" Message-ID: <201712121826.vBCIQKoR6094878@floodgap.com> > Also (please correct me if I'm wrong), you lose the integrated floppy > access. You are correct. I don't believe it even works in 10.2, which *is* supported. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Si c'est gratuit, vous etes le produit. ------------------------------------ From systems.glitch at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 12:36:09 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 13:36:09 -0500 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: <201712121826.vBCIQKoR6094878@floodgap.com> References: <201712121826.vBCIQKoR6094878@floodgap.com> Message-ID: I went through a number of "this totally works on a beige G3" MacOS 8.x and 9.x ISOs before finding one that would boot my beige G3 desktop. I think it ended up being MacOS 9.2.1. Thanks, Jonathan On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:26 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Also (please correct me if I'm wrong), you lose the integrated floppy > > access. > > You are correct. I don't believe it even works in 10.2, which *is* > supported. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Si c'est gratuit, vous etes le produit. ------------------------------ > ------ > From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Dec 12 12:41:51 2017 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 10:41:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: from systems_glitch at "Dec 12, 17 01:36:09 pm" Message-ID: <201712121841.vBCIfpml5439668@floodgap.com> > I went through a number of "this totally works on a beige G3" MacOS 8.x and > 9.x ISOs before finding one that would boot my beige G3 desktop. I think it > ended up being MacOS 9.2.1. There is a "boot-any" CD from the last eMac that can boot OS 9 that will boot any OS 9.2.2-compatible Mac, of which the beige G3 should qualify. The part# is 691-4323-A. 9.2.2 has some slight performance improvements on native G3 and New World systems, but for my other beige Macs I prefer 9.1. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 13:31:27 2017 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 14:31:27 -0500 Subject: Picked up beige Mac G3 In-Reply-To: <201712121841.vBCIfpml5439668@floodgap.com> References: <201712121841.vBCIfpml5439668@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Thanks for all the advice. Oops,A little late reading whole brittle plastic warning. nothing important is missing, but there are little chips of plastic everywhere now. The plastic does not age well. The hard drive had failed, i replaced it. Im going to find a newer ide cd drive and try swapping the old one out, i suspect it is not reading my cd's. I tried pressing the C key at power on, no luck. The drive spins up and there is a little activity at first but it does not appear to even be trying to read the cd. The floppy drive is all gummed up, but that may be something i can clean out and repair. Plan is to get mac os 8 or 9 installed. I already have an ibook g4 running 10.4, i do not have much interest in osx. the 68k and ppc machines are what i grew up with, thats my focus. I have a pile of mac se's, hopefully if i can get the g3 running it will make getting media made for the se's easier. --Devin On Tue, Dec 12, 2017 at 1:41 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: >> I went through a number of "this totally works on a beige G3" MacOS 8.x and >> 9.x ISOs before finding one that would boot my beige G3 desktop. I think it >> ended up being MacOS 9.2.1. > > There is a "boot-any" CD from the last eMac that can boot OS 9 that will boot > any OS 9.2.2-compatible Mac, of which the beige G3 should qualify. The > part# is 691-4323-A. > > 9.2.2 has some slight performance improvements on native G3 and New World > systems, but for my other beige Macs I prefer 9.1. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I can't complain, but sometimes I still do. -- Joe Walsh ------------------- From t.gardner at computer.org Tue Dec 12 13:35:15 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 11:35:15 -0800 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007001d37380$56313570$0293a050$@computer.org> It is from the AMP M series connector family used in the data cable for the IBM 2311/2314 and PCM equivalents including double density like the ISS 715 (RP03?). So some of the parts strippers should have lots. Using coax at the FDD data rate was overkill so unless you want to preserve the connector for historical purposes u should be able to push out and then remove the pins and connect the wires to whatever connector suits u - flat cable connector for the control signal cable and whatever works for the three coaxes (coax to twisted pair should work). Tom -----Original Message----- From: Mattis Lind [mailto:mattislind at gmail.com] Sent: Monday, December 11, 2017 12:45 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive Hello! I am about to start with the project to archive disks from the Incoterm system. This system makes use of the Memorex 651 drive which is somewhat odd. It has 64 tracks,is hard sectored with 32 sectors and spins at 375 rpm. But I do have the drive which hopefully still is working. However the interface connector is nothing like I seen on a floppy drive before. https://i.imgur.com/TklddLP.jpg It is a AMP 202515-1 housing. The mating 202516-1 which I need is still in production and available for purchase from Mouser. The small coaxial connectors on the other hand has a minimum order of 1000 units and costs 10 euros each... https://www.mouser.se/ProductDetail/TE-Connectivity/201146-2/?qs=DuOyNqEZh0%252bSNT4sy6om8Q== Does anyone know of a source selling something like three coaxial connectors like this at decent price? Or maybe a suggestion for another connector that could be modified into fit somehow? Potentially using glue to fixate it. Of course the last resort is to just solder some wires directly onto the drive PCB, but if there is a nice solution I try that first. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 14:37:55 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2017 21:37:55 +0100 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: <007001d37380$56313570$0293a050$@computer.org> References: <007001d37380$56313570$0293a050$@computer.org> Message-ID: 2017-12-12 20:35 GMT+01:00 Tom Gardner via cctalk : > It is from the AMP M series connector family used in the data cable for > the IBM 2311/2314 and PCM equivalents including double density like the ISS > 715 (RP03?). So some of the parts strippers should have lots. > What parts strippers is this? Did these drives use coax connectors as well? If someone see a used M-series with coax connector please save it! I am very interested in used parts as well. > > Using coax at the FDD data rate was overkill so unless you want to > preserve the connector for historical purposes u should be able to push out > and then remove the pins and connect the wires to whatever connector suits > u - flat cable connector for the control signal cable and whatever works > for the three coaxes (coax to twisted pair should work). > I don't want to replace the current connector since the mating connector in the drive controller needs it. I just want something proper if possible to use when dumping the disks. But I don't want to spend a fortune of course. If not possible I simply solder wires to the relevant points on the drive circuit board. > > Tom > > /Mattis From tomasparks.ts at gmail.com Tue Dec 12 23:42:54 2017 From: tomasparks.ts at gmail.com (tom sparks) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:42:54 +1000 Subject: porting software to psion 5mx Message-ID: Could someone port some software to the psion 5mx for me * [zpaq](http://mattmahoney.net/dc/zpaq.html) [source code](https://github.com/zpaq/zpaq) thank you From Mark at Misty.com Wed Dec 13 08:08:34 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:08:34 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking Message-ID: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google didn't turn up anything useful with this info. I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 08:18:16 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 09:18:16 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > Mark > > > Mark, If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried the regular stuff. What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple eraser unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom eraser unit. I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before here, about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that simply erasing them. Bill From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Dec 13 08:49:39 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:49:39 +0000 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com>, Message-ID: When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped by baking. Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating layer that was damaged. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of william degnan via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: EPROM baking On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > Mark > > > Mark, If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried the regular stuff. What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple eraser unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom eraser unit. I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before here, about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that simply erasing them. Bill From holm at freibergnet.de Wed Dec 13 09:17:16 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 16:17:16 +0100 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> Hmm..I've read about that baking in conjunction with 1702A too..but don't remember the source of that discussion. I know that ppl suggested it for proms that would'nt program correctly... Regards, Holm dwight via cctalk wrote: > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. > > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped by baking. > > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating layer that was damaged. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of william degnan via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM > To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPROM baking > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > Mark, > > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried the > regular stuff. > > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple eraser > unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have > issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom > eraser unit. I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other > options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before here, > about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not > make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that > simply erasing them. > > > Bill -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 09:32:10 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:32:10 -0000 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <056901d37427$8adef350$a09cd9f0$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark G > Thomas via cctalk > Sent: 13 December 2017 14:09 > To: CCtalk > Subject: EPROM baking > > Hi, > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and am > finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take a program. > I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted to know about > repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > Any clues on resources for this. Mine seems to read but gives over current warnings when I ask it to program ROMS.. > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but I do > not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google didn't turn > up anything useful with this info. > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > Mark > > -- > Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE Dave Wade G4UGM & EA7KAE From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 13 09:33:07 2017 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:33:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <220178639.3777856.1513179187973@mail.yahoo.com> My homemade 8080 CPM machine used a number of 2708 and 2716 EPROMs. that was 40 years ago. This machine is still running and I use it, but since I had trouble with the EPROMs, I switched to EEPROMs. I would also be interested in hearing about whether or not baking would work and how to do the baking, exactly. I have a bunch of old EPROMs, that I figured were dead, but maybe not??Mike Zahorik From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk To: dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:17 AM Subject: Re: EPROM baking Hmm..I've read about that baking in conjunction with 1702A too..but don't remember the source of that discussion. I know that ppl suggested it for proms that would'nt program correctly... Regards, Holm dwight via cctalk wrote: > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. > > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped by baking. > > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating layer that was damaged. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of william degnan via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM > To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPROM baking > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > Mark, > > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms?? I assume you have tried the > regular stuff. > > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's?? I have a simple eraser > unit and it seems to always work.? Some eproms go bad but I never have > issues with erasing them.? My point is that maybe you need a better prom > eraser unit.? I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other > options.? Not sure what others think.? This topic has come up before here, > about putting them outside and all that.? The erasers are all over ebay, > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not > make a box that will do the job?? ? I assume there is more to it that > simply erasing them. > > > Bill -- ? ? ? Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, ? ? Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Wed Dec 13 09:33:07 2017 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:33:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <220178639.3777856.1513179187973@mail.yahoo.com> My homemade 8080 CPM machine used a number of 2708 and 2716 EPROMs. that was 40 years ago. This machine is still running and I use it, but since I had trouble with the EPROMs, I switched to EEPROMs. I would also be interested in hearing about whether or not baking would work and how to do the baking, exactly. I have a bunch of old EPROMs, that I figured were dead, but maybe not??Mike Zahorik From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk To: dwight via cctalk Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:17 AM Subject: Re: EPROM baking Hmm..I've read about that baking in conjunction with 1702A too..but don't remember the source of that discussion. I know that ppl suggested it for proms that would'nt program correctly... Regards, Holm dwight via cctalk wrote: > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. > > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped by baking. > > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating layer that was damaged. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of william degnan via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM > To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: EPROM baking > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > Mark, > > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms?? I assume you have tried the > regular stuff. > > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's?? I have a simple eraser > unit and it seems to always work.? Some eproms go bad but I never have > issues with erasing them.? My point is that maybe you need a better prom > eraser unit.? I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other > options.? Not sure what others think.? This topic has come up before here, > about putting them outside and all that.? The erasers are all over ebay, > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not > make a box that will do the job?? ? I assume there is more to it that > simply erasing them. > > > Bill -- ? ? ? Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, ? ? Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 11:18:07 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:18:07 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <220178639.3777856.1513179187973@mail.yahoo.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> <220178639.3777856.1513179187973@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: The only "baking" I've heard about with EPROMs was *annealing* on the original prototypes from Intel. I want to say that was before they figured out UV erasure and were zapping the things with X-rays for erasure. You won't be doing any EPROM annealing in a home oven :) It's been my experience that usually defective 2708s or 2716s will fail to program, rather than fail to erase. Be aware that some of these old EPROMs take quite a while to erase. Newer stuff like 2764s are usually done in around 15 minutes with my old UV eraser, but I've had to run old 2708s and 1702s for much longer, 30+ minutes usually. I think my eraser uses a 15W lamp, for reference. Try programming all zeros and see if it'll take. If it does, try and erase them. If you start seeing some bits flip to one but not all of them, increase exposure time. If you get up around an hour and you still have zeros in some positions, the EPROM is likely bad. If you're debugging or developing on something, I wouldn't bother messing around with potentially bad EPROMs, especially 2716s since those are still pretty available. You can also drop a 2816 EEPROM in there (there are other pin-compatible EEPROMs, SEEQ had one, there may be others). And, of course, be aware that Texas Instruments' 2716 is its own thing and not compatible with the common 5V-only 2716s. They called their Intel 2716 compatible a 2516. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 10:33 AM, Michael Zahorik via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > My homemade 8080 CPM machine used a number of 2708 and 2716 EPROMs. that > was 40 years ago. This machine is still running and I use it, but since I > had trouble with the EPROMs, I switched to EEPROMs. I would also be > interested in hearing about whether or not baking would work and how to do > the baking, exactly. I have a bunch of old EPROMs, that I figured were > dead, but maybe not? Mike Zahorik > > > From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk > To: dwight via cctalk > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:17 AM > Subject: Re: EPROM baking > > > Hmm..I've read about that baking in conjunction with 1702A too..but > don't remember the source of that discussion. I know that ppl suggested > it for proms that would'nt program correctly... > > Regards, > Holm > > dwight via cctalk wrote: > > > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair > the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. > > > > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped > by baking. > > > > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the > leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of > program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating > layer that was damaged. > > > > Dwight > > > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cctalk on behalf of william > degnan via cctalk > > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM > > To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: EPROM baking > > > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < > > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > > Hi, > > > > > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > > > > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > > > > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > > > > > Mark > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mark, > > > > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried > the > > regular stuff. > > > > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple > eraser > > unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have > > issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom > > eraser unit. I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other > > options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before > here, > > about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, > > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not > > make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that > > simply erasing them. > > > > > > Bill > > -- > Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, > Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 > info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 > > > > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 11:18:57 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:18:57 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171213151716.GA44348@beast.freibergnet.de> <220178639.3777856.1513179187973@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: Oh, and make sure the quartz window is clean :) I've had sticker residue result in some bits not erasing. Thanks, Jonathan On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 12:18 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > The only "baking" I've heard about with EPROMs was *annealing* on the > original prototypes from Intel. I want to say that was before they figured > out UV erasure and were zapping the things with X-rays for erasure. You > won't be doing any EPROM annealing in a home oven :) > > It's been my experience that usually defective 2708s or 2716s will fail to > program, rather than fail to erase. Be aware that some of these old EPROMs > take quite a while to erase. Newer stuff like 2764s are usually done in > around 15 minutes with my old UV eraser, but I've had to run old 2708s and > 1702s for much longer, 30+ minutes usually. I think my eraser uses a 15W > lamp, for reference. > > Try programming all zeros and see if it'll take. If it does, try and erase > them. If you start seeing some bits flip to one but not all of them, > increase exposure time. If you get up around an hour and you still have > zeros in some positions, the EPROM is likely bad. If you're debugging or > developing on something, I wouldn't bother messing around with potentially > bad EPROMs, especially 2716s since those are still pretty available. You > can also drop a 2816 EEPROM in there (there are other pin-compatible > EEPROMs, SEEQ had one, there may be others). > > And, of course, be aware that Texas Instruments' 2716 is its own thing and > not compatible with the common 5V-only 2716s. They called their Intel 2716 > compatible a 2516. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 10:33 AM, Michael Zahorik via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> My homemade 8080 CPM machine used a number of 2708 and 2716 EPROMs. that >> was 40 years ago. This machine is still running and I use it, but since I >> had trouble with the EPROMs, I switched to EEPROMs. I would also be >> interested in hearing about whether or not baking would work and how to do >> the baking, exactly. I have a bunch of old EPROMs, that I figured were >> dead, but maybe not? Mike Zahorik >> >> >> From: Holm Tiffe via cctalk >> To: dwight via cctalk >> Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 9:17 AM >> Subject: Re: EPROM baking >> >> >> Hmm..I've read about that baking in conjunction with 1702A too..but >> don't remember the source of that discussion. I know that ppl suggested >> it for proms that would'nt program correctly... >> >> Regards, >> Holm >> >> dwight via cctalk wrote: >> >> > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair >> the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. >> > >> > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be >> helped by baking. >> > >> > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the >> leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of >> program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating >> layer that was damaged. >> > >> > Dwight >> > >> > >> > ________________________________ >> > From: cctalk on behalf of william >> degnan via cctalk >> > Sent: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 6:18:16 AM >> > To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> > Subject: Re: EPROM baking >> > >> > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < >> > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > > Hi, >> > > >> > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and >> > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take >> > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted >> > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. >> > > >> > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but >> > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google >> > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. >> > > >> > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. >> > > >> > > Mark >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> > Mark, >> > >> > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried >> the >> > regular stuff. >> > >> > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple >> eraser >> > unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have >> > issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom >> > eraser unit. I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other >> > options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before >> here, >> > about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, >> > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not >> > make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that >> > simply erasing them. >> > >> > >> > Bill >> >> -- >> Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, >> Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 >> info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 >> >> >> >> >> > From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 12:23:01 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:23:01 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project Message-ID: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> I am back in front of the machine: The M7856 is set thusly: ??? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- The M9312 is set thusly: ??? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 Troubleshooting from the programmers console: CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to the previous A ) CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be able to boot from there. Any thoughts? Sincerely, John Welch From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Dec 13 12:38:42 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:38:42 +0000 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in Hyperterm. That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. You can also try it the other way: * type one character in Hyperterm * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address of the monitor on the M9312. That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the ?@?. BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the other does not. My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means that you try to boot from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the PROM socket is empty ? ________________________________ Van: cctech namens John Welch via cctech Verzonden: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org Onderwerp: 11/04 Project I am back in front of the machine: The M7856 is set thusly: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- The M9312 is set thusly: 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 Troubleshooting from the programmers console: CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to the previous A ) CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be able to boot from there. Any thoughts? Sincerely, John Welch From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Dec 13 14:08:12 2017 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 12:08:12 -0800 Subject: Looking for a book on LAN Manager Message-ID: <004d01d3744e$1b8860f0$529922d0$@net> Hello All, I am looking for a copy of: Troubleshooting LAN Manager 2 PDF by Michael Publication date: 10/01/1993 ISBN:155851161X ISBN13: 9781558511613 I've looked the usual areas and can't find a reasonably priced copy. There was one on epay for $10 but the day I marked it to watch suddenly it was no longer available. Interestingly enough the seller has an exact copy w/ the same description/condition relisted for $67 now... Alternatively if anyone has a copy of LAN Manager 2 OS (not just the workstation 3 disk set) w/ manuals that they no longer want I would be happy to take it off of your hands. Thanks Thanks in advance -Ali From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 13 14:49:53 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:49:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/04 Project Message-ID: <20171213204953.8DE6518C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > Any thoughts? Concur 100% with Henk's comments. There is a manual online for the M9312: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf which will tell you what the other start options are (Appendix C), but see page 3-1, too. Note especially the bit about how the primary dianostics are run before it starts the console emulator; I forget what it does if the primary fails, possibly it halts? Noel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 13 16:22:59 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:22:59 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9832 tape drive ( eBay 302562153660) Message-ID: <4a4d1cd9-906a-43cb-f630-1c3db8cfe151@sydex.com> This one has me scratching my head. eBay Item 302562153660 Sure, it's a Kennedy 9832 drive mounted in some sort of giant hard case. Anyone know if this was a modified drive? What on earth would it be used for? --Chuck From t.gardner at computer.org Wed Dec 13 16:40:36 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 14:40:36 -0800 Subject: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive In-Reply-To: References: <007001d37380$56313570$0293a050$@computer.org> Message-ID: <00a301d37463$65b26210$31172630$@computer.org> Personally I can?t recommend any company selling used parts stripped from surplus equipment but I recall several being discussed in this thread. My recollection in the 2311 and 2314 class disk drives from IBM, Memorex, ISS (sold by Itel and Telex), Calcomp, CDC, Ampex, etc all used M series for both the data and control cables. The data cables were hermaphroditic with two or three coax connector receptacles and a number of sockets at each end mating to the corresponding connectors in the drive and controller. So what u really want to find is a data cable from these very old drives (or at least one half of one) and strip out the sockets. It maybe the 651 used the same connector block as the 2314 class data cables; I doubt if Memorex had the money to pay AMP for a custom block so they just used the connector block that was in their 2311/2314 line ? IBM paid AMP for that block J Good luck. Tom From: Mattis Lind [mailto:mattislind at gmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 12, 2017 12:38 PM To: Tom Gardner; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for AMP / TE coaxial connectors - Memorex 651 drive 2017-12-12 20:35 GMT+01:00 Tom Gardner via cctalk : It is from the AMP M series connector family used in the data cable for the IBM 2311/2314 and PCM equivalents including double density like the ISS 715 (RP03?). So some of the parts strippers should have lots. What parts strippers is this? Did these drives use coax connectors as well? If someone see a used M-series with coax connector please save it! I am very interested in used parts as well. Using coax at the FDD data rate was overkill so unless you want to preserve the connector for historical purposes u should be able to push out and then remove the pins and connect the wires to whatever connector suits u - flat cable connector for the control signal cable and whatever works for the three coaxes (coax to twisted pair should work). I don't want to replace the current connector since the mating connector in the drive controller needs it. I just want something proper if possible to use when dumping the disks. But I don't want to spend a fortune of course. If not possible I simply solder wires to the relevant points on the drive circuit board. Tom /Mattis From andy.holt at tesco.net Wed Dec 13 16:49:37 2017 From: andy.holt at tesco.net (ANDY HOLT) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:49:37 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Kennedy 9832 tape drive ( eBay 302562153660) In-Reply-To: <4a4d1cd9-906a-43cb-f630-1c3db8cfe151@sydex.com> Message-ID: <477591717.1370576.1513205377468.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> >>>> eBay Item 302562153660 Sure, it's a Kennedy 9832 drive mounted in some sort of giant hard case. Anyone know if this was a modified drive? What on earth would it be used for? --Chuck <<<< Can't see this item, ut Tape drives in flight cases (which I assume is described) are normally data loggers or part thereof. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 13 17:22:58 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 15:22:58 -0800 Subject: Kennedy 9832 tape drive ( eBay 302562153660) In-Reply-To: <477591717.1370576.1513205377468.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> References: <477591717.1370576.1513205377468.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> Message-ID: <3f5be541-fa52-9560-362f-0fcdf717014f@sydex.com> On 12/13/2017 02:49 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: > > eBay Item 302562153660 > > <<<< > Can't see this item, ut > Tape drives in flight cases (which I assume is described) are normally data loggers or part thereof. URL: https://goo.gl/LWshxS Yup it's a big NASA flight case. 8 BNC connectors. What would the unseen stuff in the flight case be? I see two large cables. --Chuck From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Dec 13 19:33:25 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 18:33:25 -0700 Subject: Kennedy 9832 tape drive ( eBay 302562153660) In-Reply-To: <3f5be541-fa52-9560-362f-0fcdf717014f@sydex.com> References: <477591717.1370576.1513205377468.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <3f5be541-fa52-9560-362f-0fcdf717014f@sydex.com> Message-ID: <9c904a2d-1199-602d-1384-fe90a5ccbbdc@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/13/2017 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/13/2017 02:49 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> >> eBay Item 302562153660 >> >> <<<< >> Can't see this item, ut >> Tape drives in flight cases (which I assume is described) are normally data loggers or part thereof. > > URL: https://goo.gl/LWshxS > > Yup it's a big NASA flight case. 8 BNC connectors. What would the > unseen stuff in the flight case be? I see two large cables. > > --Chuck You might get lucky and find a MOON ROCK. :) Ben. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 13 21:37:48 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:37:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/04 Project Message-ID: <20171214033748.E84C618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. Good, the console is working. > CLR > LAD > DEP OK, that loads a '0' (halt) in 0. > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 OK, so it reads the HALT at 0 and stops. > CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on > CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 Sounds like it may be looping in the high bank of ROM? That's not necessarily wrong. I finally figured out what the ROMs in the M9312 do; the ROMs at 765000 are the first-level diagnostic, and the console. The bootstrap code for the various devices is at 773000. > 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. That makes sense; you can't write to the ROM. > Any suggestions? i) Check the ROM contents; there are two kinds of M9312 console ROMs, one for most CPUs, and one for the 11/60 and 11/70, see the tech manual for the M9312. So read out the first couple of words: CLR 765000 LAD EXAM EXAM etc and let's see what they read. ii) Try starting the console code directly: CLR 765020 LAD CNTRL+START > I have other M9312s I could try. Can't hurt. Noel From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Dec 13 22:26:36 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:26:36 -0500 Subject: Kennedy 9832 tape drive ( eBay 302562153660) In-Reply-To: <9c904a2d-1199-602d-1384-fe90a5ccbbdc@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <477591717.1370576.1513205377468.JavaMail.root@md02.topaz.synacor.com> <3f5be541-fa52-9560-362f-0fcdf717014f@sydex.com> <9c904a2d-1199-602d-1384-fe90a5ccbbdc@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Looks like it has the controller built in... 800bpi though, wah waah. =] -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 8:33 PM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/13/2017 4:22 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > >> On 12/13/2017 02:49 PM, ANDY HOLT wrote: >> >>> >>> eBay Item 302562153660 >>> >>> <<<< >>> Can't see this item, ut >>> Tape drives in flight cases (which I assume is described) are normally >>> data loggers or part thereof. >>> >> >> URL: https://goo.gl/LWshxS >> >> Yup it's a big NASA flight case. 8 BNC connectors. What would the >> unseen stuff in the flight case be? I see two large cables. >> >> --Chuck >> > > You might get lucky and find a MOON ROCK. :) > Ben. > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Dec 13 19:33:31 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 20:33:31 -0500 Subject: APE emulator Message-ID: All ? ??????????????? I can?t remember who contacted me originally about potential enhancements to the APE (Altair Peripheral Emulator) that I have mirrored at ape.classiccmp.net. I heard from Frank Barberis and he mentioned that he?d be willing to make enhancements to the software if there was sufficient interest. ??????????????? So, if we can put together a list of desire enhancement/features I can try to get the ball rolling. Feel free to contact me off-list with ideas. Thanks! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 20:37:26 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 20:37:26 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal.?? I forgot about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters locally. Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. So far so good. However, I have not gotten "@" CNTRL+HLT CLR LAD DEP CNTRL+INIT CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 CNTRL+BOOT? -> reads 165024 CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 ???? 1? 2?? 3?? 4?? 5 6?? 7?? 8?? 9?? 10 ?? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- S1 Off On? Off Off Off Off Off Off On? Off CNTRL+HLT CLR LAD DEP CNTRL+INIT CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 CNTRL+BOOT? -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. Any suggestions?? I have other M9312s I could try. On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in Hyperterm. > > That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it > indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. > > You can also try it the other way: > > * type one character in Hyperterm > * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) > * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) > > 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address > of the monitor on the M9312. > > That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. > > I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the > ?@?. > > BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the > other does not. > > My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means > that you try to boot > > from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the > PROM socket is empty ? > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > *Van:* cctech namens John Welch via > cctech > *Verzonden:* Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM > *Aan:* cctech at classiccmp.org > *Onderwerp:* 11/04 Project > I am back in front of the machine: > > The M7856 is set thusly: > ???? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9 10 > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP > S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP > S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP > S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP > S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- > > The M9312 is set thusly: > > ???? 1? 2? 3? 4? 5? 6? 7? 8? 9 10 > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN > > This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 > I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC > running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 > > Troubleshooting from the programmers console: > CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. > > CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A > CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to > the previous A ) > > > CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 > CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 > CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 > CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 > > I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be > able to boot from there. > > Any thoughts? > > Sincerely, > John Welch > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 21:39:51 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (JCWelch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 21:39:51 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <45C294CE-2DAF-4B91-A3FB-F61FB0EB53AF@hal-pc.org> I am much confused as to how to connect TP1, TP2, TP3, & TP4. there is a wire coming in with spade lugs. One wire is red, one clear, and one black. Just to be share which color goes to which TP lug? Sent from my iPad On Dec 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM, John Welch wrote: I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal. I forgot about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters locally. Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. So far so good. However, I have not gotten "@" CNTRL+HLT CLR LAD DEP CNTRL+INIT CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 CNTRL+BOOT -> reads 165024 CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- S1 Off On Off Off Off Off Off Off On Off CNTRL+HLT CLR LAD DEP CNTRL+INIT CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. Any suggestions? I have other M9312s I could try. > On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in Hyperterm. > That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. > You can also try it the other way: > type one character in Hyperterm > check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) > in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) > > 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address of the monitor on the M9312. > That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. > > I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the ?@?. > BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the other does not. > > My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means that you try to boot > from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the PROM socket is empty ? > > > Van: cctech namens John Welch via cctech > Verzonden: Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM > Aan: cctech at classiccmp.org > Onderwerp: 11/04 Project > > I am back in front of the machine: > > The M7856 is set thusly: > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP > S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP > S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP > S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP > S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- > > The M9312 is set thusly: > > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- > S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN > > This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 > I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC > running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 > > Troubleshooting from the programmers console: > CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. > > CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A > CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to > the previous A ) > > > CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 > CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 > CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 > CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 > > I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be > able to boot from there. > > Any thoughts? > > Sincerely, > John Welch > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jsw at ieee.org Wed Dec 13 22:05:59 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:05:59 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <232FEE74-B264-465E-919F-957DC65EE505@ieee.org> According to the documentation EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual there are two addresses to use for the Console Emulator. 165020 (765020) for Console with Diagnostics SW 1 and 7 on 165144 (765144) for Console w/o Diagnostics SW 1,5,6,9 on The switch settings below correspond to xxx004.. which is probably the first drive for the ROM in position 1 and does not invoke diagnostics. Have you tried 173000 (773000)? Jerry > On Dec 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: > > I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal. I forgot about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters locally. Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. So far so good. > However, I have not gotten "@" > CNTRL+HLT > CLR > LAD > DEP > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 > CNTRL+BOOT -> reads 165024 > > CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 > 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 > > Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 > > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- > S1 Off On Off Off Off Off Off Off On Off > > CNTRL+HLT > CLR > LAD > DEP > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 > CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, > CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 > > > CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 > 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 > > 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. > > Any suggestions? I have other M9312s I could try. > > On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in Hyperterm. >> >> That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. >> >> You can also try it the other way: >> >> * type one character in Hyperterm >> * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) >> * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) >> >> 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address of the monitor on the M9312. >> >> That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. >> >> I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the ?@?. >> >> BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the other does not. >> >> My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means that you try to boot >> >> from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the PROM socket is empty ? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:* cctech namens John Welch via cctech >> *Verzonden:* Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM >> *Aan:* cctech at classiccmp.org >> *Onderwerp:* 11/04 Project >> I am back in front of the machine: >> >> The M7856 is set thusly: >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >> S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP >> S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP >> S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP >> S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP >> S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- >> >> The M9312 is set thusly: >> >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >> S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN >> >> This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 >> I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC >> running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 >> >> Troubleshooting from the programmers console: >> CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. >> >> CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A >> CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to >> the previous A ) >> >> >> CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 >> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >> CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 >> >> I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be >> able to boot from there. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> > > -- > Sincerely, > John Welch > 281-353-4706 Home > 713-725-7017 Cell > :qw > Jerry Weiss jsw at ieee.org From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 22:21:47 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (JCWelch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:21:47 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214033748.E84C618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214033748.E84C618C095@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9BBC816A-12E6-4C78-ADDC-F48753793372@hal-pc.org> CLR 765000 LAD EXAM ?Bus Err? light comes on. CLR 765020 LAD CNTRL+START Display changes to 165020 Nothing on the terminal. Do you know which color wire (red, clear, black) goes to which festoon connector (TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4)? Don?t want to blow anything up. Sent from my iPad > On Dec 13, 2017, at 9:37 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: John Welch > Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. Good, the console is working. > CLR > LAD > DEP OK, that loads a '0' (halt) in 0. > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 OK, so it reads the HALT at 0 and stops. > CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on > CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 Sounds like it may be looping in the high bank of ROM? That's not necessarily wrong. I finally figured out what the ROMs in the M9312 do; the ROMs at 765000 are the first-level diagnostic, and the console. The bootstrap code for the various devices is at 773000. > 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. That makes sense; you can't write to the ROM. > Any suggestions? i) Check the ROM contents; there are two kinds of M9312 console ROMs, one for most CPUs, and one for the 11/60 and 11/70, see the tech manual for the M9312. So read out the first couple of words: CLR 765000 LAD EXAM EXAM etc and let's see what they read. ii) Try starting the console code directly: CLR 765020 LAD CNTRL+START > I have other M9312s I could try. Can't hurt. Noel From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 22:34:57 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (JCWelch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 22:34:57 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <232FEE74-B264-465E-919F-957DC65EE505@ieee.org> References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> <232FEE74-B264-465E-919F-957DC65EE505@ieee.org> Message-ID: <49CB56EE-4209-4DCA-92A7-90FE7F9309F5@hal-pc.org> So far nothing puts ?@?, or anything on the screen. Sent from my iPad On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: According to the documentation EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual there are two addresses to use for the Console Emulator. 165020 (765020) for Console with Diagnostics SW 1 and 7 on 165144 (765144) for Console w/o Diagnostics SW 1,5,6,9 on The switch settings below correspond to xxx004.. which is probably the first drive for the ROM in position 1 and does not invoke diagnostics. Have you tried 173000 (773000)? Jerry > On Dec 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM, John Welch via cctech wrote: > > I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal. I forgot about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters locally. Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. So far so good. > However, I have not gotten "@" > CNTRL+HLT > CLR > LAD > DEP > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 > CNTRL+BOOT -> reads 165024 > > CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 > 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 > > Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 > > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- > S1 Off On Off Off Off Off Off Off On Off > > CNTRL+HLT > CLR > LAD > DEP > CNTRL+INIT > CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 > CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, > CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 > > > CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 > 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 > > 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. > > Any suggestions? I have other M9312s I could try. > >> On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in Hyperterm. >> >> That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. >> >> You can also try it the other way: >> >> * type one character in Hyperterm >> * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) >> * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) >> >> 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address of the monitor on the M9312. >> >> That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. >> >> I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the ?@?. >> >> BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the other does not. >> >> My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means that you try to boot >> >> from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the PROM socket is empty ? >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> *Van:* cctech namens John Welch via cctech >> *Verzonden:* Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM >> *Aan:* cctech at classiccmp.org >> *Onderwerp:* 11/04 Project >> I am back in front of the machine: >> >> The M7856 is set thusly: >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >> S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP >> S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP >> S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP >> S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP >> S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- >> >> The M9312 is set thusly: >> >> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >> S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN >> >> This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 >> I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC >> running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 >> >> Troubleshooting from the programmers console: >> CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. >> >> CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A >> CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next to >> the previous A ) >> >> >> CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 >> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >> CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 >> >> I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should be >> able to boot from there. >> >> Any thoughts? >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> > > -- > Sincerely, > John Welch > 281-353-4706 Home > 713-725-7017 Cell > :qw > Jerry Weiss jsw at ieee.org From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Wed Dec 13 23:42:25 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Wed, 13 Dec 2017 23:42:25 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <673DE4B5-F4E3-43AF-B9D9-22E5BD0F7A1E@ieee.org> References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> <232FEE74-B264-465E-919F-957DC65EE505@ieee.org> <49CB56EE-4209-4DCA-92A7-90FE7F9309F5@hal-pc.org> <673DE4B5-F4E3-43AF-B9D9-22E5BD0F7A1E@ieee.org> Message-ID: On 12/13/2017 10:41 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > What is the configuration of jumpers? I have tried the following: ??? 1?? 2?? 3?? 4?? 5?? 6?? 7?? 8?? 9?? 10 ?? --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- S1 Off On? Off Off Off Off Off Off On? Off S1 On? On? Off Off Off Off On? Off Off Off S1 On? On? Off Off On On? Off Off On? Off S1 On? Off Off Off On? On? Off Off On? Off Maybe some others, never get anything to the screen. I have some cards that are marked TP1:Red TP2:Blk TP4:Clr and other cards marked TP1:Red TP2:Clr TP4:Blk I would really like to hear from someone that has it working rather than risking popping something. >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:34 PM, JCWelch > > wrote: >> >> So far nothing puts ?@?, or anything on the screen. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Jerry Weiss > > wrote: >> >> According to the documentation EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 >> Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual >> there are two addresses to use for the Console Emulator. >> >> 165020 (765020) ?for Console with Diagnostics ?SW 1 and 7 on >> 165144 (765144) ?for Console w/o Diagnostics ??SW 1,5,6,9 on >> >> The switch settings below correspond to xxx004.. which is probably >> the first drive for the ROM in position 1 and does >> not invoke diagnostics. >> >> Have you tried 173000 (773000)? >> >> Jerry >> >> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM, John Welch via cctech >>> > wrote: >>> >>> I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal. ??I >>> forgot about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters >>> locally. Anyway, 'a' comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as >>> 000101. So far so good. >>> However, I have not gotten "@" >>> CNTRL+HLT >>> CLR >>> LAD >>> DEP >>> CNTRL+INIT >>> CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 >>> CNTRL+BOOT ?-> reads 165024 >>> >>> CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 >>> 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 >>> >>> Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 >>> >>> ???1 ?2 ??3 ??4 ??5 6 ??7 ??8 ??9 ??10 >>> ?--- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- >>> S1 Off On ?Off Off Off Off Off Off On ?Off >>> >>> CNTRL+HLT >>> CLR >>> LAD >>> DEP >>> CNTRL+INIT >>> CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 >>> CNTRL+BOOT ?-> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, >>> CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 >>> >>> >>> CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 >>> 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 >>> >>> 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. >>> >>> Any suggestions? ?I have other M9312s I could try. >>> >>>> On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>> >>>> Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in >>>> Hyperterm. >>>> >>>> That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it >>>> indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. >>>> >>>> You can also try it the other way: >>>> >>>> * type one character in Hyperterm >>>> * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) >>>> * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) >>>> >>>> 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start >>>> address of the monitor on the M9312. >>>> >>>> That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. >>>> >>>> I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get >>>> the ?@?. >>>> >>>> BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, >>>> the other does not. >>>> >>>> My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means >>>> that you try to boot >>>> >>>> from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the >>>> PROM socket is empty ? >>>> >>>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>>> *Van:* cctech >>> > namens John Welch via >>>> cctech > >>>> *Verzonden:* Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM >>>> *Aan:* cctech at classiccmp.org >>>> *Onderwerp:* 11/04 Project >>>> I am back in front of the machine: >>>> >>>> The M7856 is set thusly: >>>> ???1 ?2 ?3 ?4 ?5 ?6 ?7 ?8 ?9 10 >>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>>> S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP >>>> S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP >>>> S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP >>>> S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP >>>> S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- >>>> >>>> The M9312 is set thusly: >>>> >>>> ???1 ?2 ?3 ?4 ?5 ?6 ?7 ?8 ?9 10 >>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>>> S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN >>>> >>>> This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 >>>> I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC >>>> running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 >>>> >>>> Troubleshooting from the programmers console: >>>> CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. >>>> >>>> CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A >>>> CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up >>>> next to >>>> the previous A ) >>>> >>>> >>>> CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 >>>> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >>>> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >>>> CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 >>>> >>>> I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I >>>> should be >>>> able to boot from there. >>>> >>>> Any thoughts? >>>> >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Welch >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Sincerely, >>> John Welch >>> 281-353-4706 Home >>> 713-725-7017 Cell >>> :qw >>> >> >> Jerry Weiss >> jsw at ieee.org >> >> >> >> > > Jerry Weiss > jsw at ieee.org > > > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 05:21:07 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 06:21:07 -0500 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: References: <0f2e6962-9f9b-dc58-8680-847376fe5bce@hal-pc.org> <4b1f2bfe-2c56-54ea-c00c-74b5cd2eb1ae@hal-pc.org> <232FEE74-B264-465E-919F-957DC65EE505@ieee.org> <49CB56EE-4209-4DCA-92A7-90FE7F9309F5@hal-pc.org> <673DE4B5-F4E3-43AF-B9D9-22E5BD0F7A1E@ieee.org> Message-ID: I am confused by the flow of this thread on my phone but.there are important things to confirm 1) the console rom does not go in any of the 4 bootstrap slots, these should be empty for now. There is a special console rom slot. Please confirm you have it installed. 2) 164020 should bring up the @ prompt or the 11/04 equiv. Load thus unto memory and run from there if you want to load manually 3) the 9312 jumpers (not talking about switches) must be set for an 11/04. They differ for various machines. Where did this 9312 come from? 4) confirm you don't have a DC LO AC LO failure. 5) the jumper switches more so pertain to the device bootstrap selection not the console. It's confusing because they refer to the console being on/off in relation to the device to be bootstrapped, ignore all that. 6) possibly the only switch to worry about now is the power on auto jump to console switch. If that's on when the machine powers up it should cause the machine to jump to the console and print a @ prompt to the termunal assuming everything else is right. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 14, 2017 12:42 AM, "John Welch via cctech" wrote: > On 12/13/2017 10:41 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> What is the configuration of jumpers? >> > > I have tried the following: > 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- > S1 Off On Off Off Off Off Off Off On Off > S1 On On Off Off Off Off On Off Off Off > S1 On On Off Off On On Off Off On Off > S1 On Off Off Off On On Off Off On Off > Maybe some others, never get anything to the screen. > > I have some cards that are marked TP1:Red TP2:Blk TP4:Clr > and other cards marked TP1:Red TP2:Clr TP4:Blk > I would really like to hear from someone that has it working rather than > risking popping something. > > On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:34 PM, JCWelch >> jcwelch at hal-pc.org>> wrote: >>> >>> So far nothing puts ?@?, or anything on the screen. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 10:05 PM, Jerry Weiss >> jsw at ieee.org>> wrote: >>> >>> According to the documentation EK-M9312-TM-002 M9312 >>> Bootstrap-Terminator Module Technical Manual >>> there are two addresses to use for the Console Emulator. >>> >>> 165020 (765020) for Console with Diagnostics SW 1 and 7 on >>> 165144 (765144) for Console w/o Diagnostics SW 1,5,6,9 on >>> >>> The switch settings below correspond to xxx004.. which is probably the >>> first drive for the ROM in position 1 and does >>> not invoke diagnostics. >>> >>> Have you tried 173000 (773000)? >>> >>> Jerry >>> >>> >>> On Dec 13, 2017, at 8:37 PM, John Welch via cctech < >>>> cctech at classiccmp.org > wrote: >>>> >>>> I have bi-directional communication from PC/Hyperterminal. I forgot >>>> about having to tell HyperTerminal to echo characters locally. Anyway, 'a' >>>> comes over as 000141 and 'A' comes over as 000101. So far so good. >>>> However, I have not gotten "@" >>>> CNTRL+HLT >>>> CLR >>>> LAD >>>> DEP >>>> CNTRL+INIT >>>> CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 >>>> CNTRL+BOOT -> reads 165024 >>>> >>>> CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 >>>> 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 >>>> >>>> Reconfigured the switches on the M9312 >>>> >>>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >>>> --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- --- >>>> S1 Off On Off Off Off Off Off Off On Off >>>> >>>> CNTRL+HLT >>>> CLR >>>> LAD >>>> DEP >>>> CNTRL+INIT >>>> CNTRL+START -> reads 000002 >>>> CNTRL+BOOT -> Run light is on, SR Disp light is on, >>>> CNTRL+HLT reads 173150 >>>> >>>> >>>> CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START reads 165024 >>>> 773024 LAD, EXAM, reads 165024 >>>> >>>> 773024 LAD, 773000 DEP, BUS ERR light comes on. >>>> >>>> Any suggestions? I have other M9312s I could try. >>>> >>>> On 12/13/2017 12:38 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Jumping over the settings. They seem OK, as you get the AB in >>>>> Hyperterm. >>>>> >>>>> That 777564 shows 000200 is also correct (as I remember that): it >>>>> indicates ?transmit buffer empty?. >>>>> >>>>> You can also try it the other way: >>>>> >>>>> * type one character in Hyperterm >>>>> * check that 777560 has the receiver buffer full flag set (000200) >>>>> * in 777562 you will see the typed character (in octal) >>>>> >>>>> 773024 showing 165024 rings a bell. IIRC, 165024 is the start address >>>>> of the monitor on the M9312. >>>>> >>>>> That is the PROM ?in the middle? on the board. >>>>> >>>>> I think that if you enter CLR, 165024 LAD, CTRL/START you will get the >>>>> ?@?. >>>>> >>>>> BTW, there is a second start address. One does some diagnostics, the >>>>> other does not. >>>>> >>>>> My guess that on 773000 and you getting 773002 on the display means >>>>> that you try to boot >>>>> >>>>> from a ?device? that is specified in one of the four PROMs, but the >>>>> PROM socket is empty ? >>>>> >>>>> ------------------------------------------------------------ >>>>> ------------ >>>>> *Van:* cctech >>>> cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org>> namens John Welch via cctech < >>>>> cctech at classiccmp.org > >>>>> *Verzonden:* Wednesday, December 13, 2017 7:23:01 PM >>>>> *Aan:* cctech at classiccmp.org >>>>> *Onderwerp:* 11/04 Project >>>>> I am back in front of the machine: >>>>> >>>>> The M7856 is set thusly: >>>>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>>>> S5 DN DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN UP >>>>> S3 DN DN UP DN UP UP DN UP DN UP >>>>> S1 UP UP DN UP DN DN UP UP DN UP >>>>> S4 UP UP DN DN UP UP DN DN DN UP >>>>> S2 DN DN UP DN DN UP DN DN -- -- >>>>> >>>>> The M9312 is set thusly: >>>>> >>>>> 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 >>>>> -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- -- >>>>> S1 UP UP DN DN DN DN UP DN DN DN >>>>> >>>>> This should be 300, 8, Odd, 1 >>>>> I have what I think is null modem between the M7856 cable and a PC >>>>> running XP with Hyperterm set to 300, 8,O,1 >>>>> >>>>> Troubleshooting from the programmers console: >>>>> CNTRL plus HALT, no bus hang. >>>>> >>>>> CLR, 777566, LAD, 101, DEP, Hyperterm shows: A >>>>> CLR, 777566, LAD, 102, DEP, Hyperterm shows: AB (the B popped up next >>>>> to >>>>> the previous A ) >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> CLR, 777564, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 000200 >>>>> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >>>>> CLR, 773024, LAD, EXAM, display shows: 165024 >>>>> CLR, 773000, LAD, CNTRL plus START, console says: 173002 >>>>> >>>>> I am thinking that the Hyperterm should be seeing an "@" and I should >>>>> be >>>>> able to boot from there. >>>>> >>>>> Any thoughts? >>>>> >>>>> Sincerely, >>>>> John Welch >>>>> >>>>> >>>> -- >>>> Sincerely, >>>> John Welch >>>> 281-353-4706 Home >>>> 713-725-7017 Cell >>>> :qw >>>> >>>> >>> Jerry Weiss >>> jsw at ieee.org >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> Jerry Weiss >> jsw at ieee.org >> >> >> >> > -- > Sincerely, > John Welch > 281-353-4706 Home > 713-725-7017 Cell > :qw > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 14 06:47:02 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 07:47:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/04 Project Message-ID: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: John Welch > CLR > 765000 > LAD > EXAM > 'Bus Err' light comes on. Oooh, that's very interesting, and illuminative. The ROM isn't working (so there's no way for the software console to work - its code is in that ROM). So look at Section 1.5 of the Technical Manual http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf and make sure all the jumpers on the M9312 are as required. In particular, jumper W-8 should be _out_. If it's not, that would explain why the ROM at 765000 isn't resonding. If it's in, that M9312 board probably has a problem. Also, while we're at it, it's probably worth making sure the CPU will run. Do this: CLR LAD 777 (This is a 'branch .' instruction) DEP EXAM (Should display '777') CLR (I think you can dispense with these LAD two, but just to be safe...) CTRL-START 'Run' light should come on CTRL-HALT 'Run' light should go out, should display '0' (or maybe '2', I forget) > Do you know which color wire (red, clear, black) goes to which festoon > connector (TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4)? I would leave them all disconnected for the moment; you don't need them. One is the 'boot' switch on the console, and its ground. The other is the 'boot on power on enable' (a duplicate of S1-2), and its ground. Since we're trying to manually start the ROM console from the front console, they aren't needed for that. I don't recall offhand which one connects to which - I will have to check. > Don't want to blow anything up. Not sure it will harm anything if you connect things wrongly, but that's not tested. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 14 07:23:39 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 08:23:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: 11/04 Project Message-ID: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > 1) the console rom does not go in any of the 4 bootstrap slots, these > should be empty for now. There is a special console rom slot. Just to clarify, by "slot", you don't mean 'backplane slot', you mean 'socket (on the card)', right? Also, note that the console/diagnostic ROM is a different size (bit-wise; I'm not sure about the physical package) from the bootstrap ROMs. > 6) possibly the only switch to worry about now is the power on auto > jump to console switch. I'd leave that, too, until we get the software console to run when started manually - at the moment, the ROM's not working, so that switch is irrelevant. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 07:59:06 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 08:59:06 -0500 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 8:23 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > 1) the console rom does not go in any of the 4 bootstrap slots, these > > should be empty for now. There is a special console rom slot. > > Just to clarify, by "slot", you don't mean 'backplane slot', you mean > 'socket > (on the card)', right? > Yes of course bad choice of words. The console ROM socket is separate from the 4 bootstrap ROM sockets. > > Also, note that the console/diagnostic ROM is a different size (bit-wise; > I'm > not sure about the physical package) from the bootstrap ROMs. > > > 6) possibly the only switch to worry about now is the power on auto > > jump to console switch. > > I'd leave that, too, until we get the software console to run when started > manually - at the moment, the ROM's not working, so that switch is > irrelevant. > > > Yes but if it's on and when you power up the system no @ sign appears at the terminal that says it's not autostarting the console. At least knowing what to expect (off or on) is what's important. As I said, the 11/04 has specific wire jumper settings. Such as W8. These must be correct for the CPU, the UNIBUS must be in a non DC LO AC LO, etc. I went through all this with my 11/40 (not 04) and it was a great way to learn about and diagnose the machine function. b From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Dec 14 10:16:00 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:16:00 +0000 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: For a quick read of the most important information of the M9312, see www.pdp-11.nl/pdp11-34a/cpu/options/bootstrap-info.htm It contains some interesting side notes from Don (at the end) Van: Noel Chiappa via cctalk Verzonden: donderdag 14 december 2017 13:47 Aan: cctalk at classiccmp.org CC: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Onderwerp: Re: 11/04 Project > From: John Welch > CLR > 765000 > LAD > EXAM > 'Bus Err' light comes on. Oooh, that's very interesting, and illuminative. The ROM isn't working (so there's no way for the software console to work - its code is in that ROM). So look at Section 1.5 of the Technical Manual http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf and make sure all the jumpers on the M9312 are as required. In particular, jumper W-8 should be _out_. If it's not, that would explain why the ROM at 765000 isn't resonding. If it's in, that M9312 board probably has a problem. Also, while we're at it, it's probably worth making sure the CPU will run. Do this: CLR LAD 777 (This is a 'branch .' instruction) DEP EXAM (Should display '777') CLR (I think you can dispense with these LAD two, but just to be safe...) CTRL-START 'Run' light should come on CTRL-HALT 'Run' light should go out, should display '0' (or maybe '2', I forget) > Do you know which color wire (red, clear, black) goes to which festoon > connector (TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4)? I would leave them all disconnected for the moment; you don't need them. One is the 'boot' switch on the console, and its ground. The other is the 'boot on power on enable' (a duplicate of S1-2), and its ground. Since we're trying to manually start the ROM console from the front console, they aren't needed for that. I don't recall offhand which one connects to which - I will have to check. > Don't want to blow anything up. Not sure it will harm anything if you connect things wrongly, but that's not tested. Noel From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 08:43:00 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 08:43:00 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/14/2017 6:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: John Welch > > > CLR > > 765000 > > LAD > > EXAM > > 'Bus Err' light comes on. > > Oooh, that's very interesting, and illuminative. The ROM isn't working (so > there's no way for the software console to work - its code is in that ROM). > > So look at Section 1.5 of the Technical Manual > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf Will do.? I have 4 M9312 cards.? One I know I pulled from an 11/04, the others from 11/04 or 11/34 (or 11/34a) [...] > Also, while we're at it, it's probably worth making sure the CPU will > run. Do this: > > CLR > LAD > 777 (This is a 'branch .' instruction) > DEP > EXAM (Should display '777') > CLR (I think you can dispense with these > LAD two, but just to be safe...) > CTRL-START > 'Run' light should come on > CTRL-HALT > 'Run' light should go out, should display '0' (or maybe '2', I forget) It read 000000 > > > > Do you know which color wire (red, clear, black) goes to which festoon > > connector (TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4)? > > I would leave them all disconnected for the moment; you don't need them. One > is the 'boot' switch on the console, and its ground. The other is the 'boot on > power on enable' (a duplicate of S1-2), and its ground. Since we're trying to > manually start the ROM console from the front console, they aren't needed for > that. > > I don't recall offhand which one connects to which - I will have to check. > > > Don't want to blow anything up. > > Not sure it will harm anything if you connect things wrongly, but that's > not tested. > > Noel -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 09:28:54 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:28:54 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214124702.89F3D18C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2396de8d-da07-82bb-50c7-5613e739ffff@hal-pc.org> The "@" is on the screen in HyperTerminal. I have 4 M9312 cards.? Three have W8 jumped, one did not.? I put in the M9312 w/o W8 and when I power on I see the "@" on the screen. Now for the next snag. The bitsavers document suggests L777 ; E which should echo some digits.? However nothing pops up. So I am wondering if I have the handshaking set right? On 12/14/2017 6:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: John Welch > > > CLR > > 765000 > > LAD > > EXAM > > 'Bus Err' light comes on. > > Oooh, that's very interesting, and illuminative. The ROM isn't working (so > there's no way for the software console to work - its code is in that ROM). > > So look at Section 1.5 of the Technical Manual > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf > > and make sure all the jumpers on the M9312 are as required. In particular, > jumper W-8 should be _out_. > > If it's not, that would explain why the ROM at 765000 isn't resonding. If it's > in, that M9312 board probably has a problem. > > > Also, while we're at it, it's probably worth making sure the CPU will > run. Do this: > > CLR > LAD > 777 (This is a 'branch .' instruction) > DEP > EXAM (Should display '777') > CLR (I think you can dispense with these > LAD two, but just to be safe...) > CTRL-START > 'Run' light should come on > CTRL-HALT > 'Run' light should go out, should display '0' (or maybe '2', I forget) > > > > Do you know which color wire (red, clear, black) goes to which festoon > > connector (TP1, TP2, TP3, TP4)? > > I would leave them all disconnected for the moment; you don't need them. One > is the 'boot' switch on the console, and its ground. The other is the 'boot on > power on enable' (a duplicate of S1-2), and its ground. Since we're trying to > manually start the ROM console from the front console, they aren't needed for > that. > > I don't recall offhand which one connects to which - I will have to check. > > > Don't want to blow anything up. > > Not sure it will harm anything if you connect things wrongly, but that's > not tested. > > Noel -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 09:46:07 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:46:07 -0600 Subject: 11/04 Project In-Reply-To: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <3eed528d-a7a6-a76c-1195-404b483bc173@hal-pc.org> I have it working now.? I had to go into XP settings for the comm port. @L777 @E 000777 173200 165212 000777 So, next is to hook up to the RL02.? I will start a new thread for that. On 12/14/2017 7:23 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > 1) the console rom does not go in any of the 4 bootstrap slots, these > > should be empty for now. There is a special console rom slot. > > Just to clarify, by "slot", you don't mean 'backplane slot', you mean 'socket > (on the card)', right? > > Also, note that the console/diagnostic ROM is a different size (bit-wise; I'm > not sure about the physical package) from the bootstrap ROMs. > > > 6) possibly the only switch to worry about now is the power on auto > > jump to console switch. > > I'd leave that, too, until we get the software console to run when started > manually - at the moment, the ROM's not working, so that switch is irrelevant. > > Noel -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 09:59:09 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 09:59:09 -0600 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook up to the RL02. I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the connectors on the back of the RL02.? I have cabling stripped from a 11/04. Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on the RL02? The machine that was stripped actually was a RL01, I hope the cable is the same and if not someone will be able to advise me on that. Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior to plugging it into the wall and powering it on? Sincerely, John Welch From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:02:28 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:02:28 -0500 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk wrote: > Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook up to the RL02. Excellent. > I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the connectors on the back of > the RL02. I have cabling stripped from a 11/04. > Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on the RL02? There should be. You will need one. RL02 cabling and terminators is a frequent topic here. The terminator is identical for the RL01/RL02 and RK06/RK07. The round cables are not (one has all the pairs, one has enough pairs for its controller but not the other, but the pairs they have in common are identically placed). > The > machine that was stripped actually was a RL01, I hope the cable is the same > and if not someone will be able to advise me on that. There is no difference between RL01 and RL02 cabling and you can mix them on the same controller at the same time. I did this myself when I owned an 11/23 w/RLV11 and an RL01 (borrowed from my PDP-8/a) and my boss loaned me an RL02 that we used to transport data/code to/from the customer site (our datafiles were over 5MB so I _needed_ an RL02 and they were a couple of grand back then). > Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? Typically, the RL11 gets set for the primary CSR (I don't remember without checking the docs how the vector is set), and unless you want to put a second RL11 in the same machine (unusual), you pretty much never change the jumpers. > Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior to plugging it > into the wall and powering it on? Before first power-on? Depends on how long it's been since it was last powered up (PSU checkout and such). The thing you'll want to do before using it is to open the lid and check for the head lock before mounting a pack and putting it online. Do notice if all your lightbulbs work. I rarely use WRITE LOCK, so I borrow that bulb if any of the others burn out. Do wipe down the cartridge area with a lint-free wipe (I have a pack of kimwipes I bought for such purposes) moistened with some IPA (isopropanol / 1,2propanol) Get any loose dust off the interior surfaces. -ethan From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:10:44 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:10:44 -0500 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook up to the RL02. > > I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the connectors on the back > of the RL02. I have cabling stripped from a 11/04. > Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on the RL02? The > machine that was stripped actually was a RL01, I hope the cable is the same > and if not someone will be able to advise me on that. > > Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? > > Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior to plugging it > into the wall and powering it on? > > Sincerely, > John Welch > Assuming you have a bridge adapter that goes between the flat cable and the drive cable. The bottom drive port should be terminated if you're not connecting to a 2nd drive. Here is how I learned what I needed: http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:18:55 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:18:55 -0500 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:10 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook up to the RL02. >> >> I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the connectors on the back >> of the RL02. I have cabling stripped from a 11/04. >> Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on the RL02? The >> machine that was stripped actually was a RL01, I hope the cable is the same >> and if not someone will be able to advise me on that. >> >> Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? >> >> Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior to plugging it >> into the wall and powering it on? >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> > > Assuming you have a bridge adapter that goes between the flat cable and > the drive cable. The bottom drive port should be terminated if you're not > connecting to a 2nd drive. Here is how I learned what I needed: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html > > Bill > > The ROM part number should be 751A9, if you're using a 9312, that's the ROM for the RL01/RL02. The command is DL0 or DL1. If you use "DL" it assumes drive 0. You can boot off of any drive however. You can install the ROM in any slot. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 13:20:10 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 14:20:10 -0500 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:18 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:10 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> >> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook up to the >>> RL02. >>> >>> I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the connectors on the >>> back of the RL02. I have cabling stripped from a 11/04. >>> Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on the RL02? The >>> machine that was stripped actually was a RL01, I hope the cable is the same >>> and if not someone will be able to advise me on that. >>> >>> Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? >>> >>> Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior to plugging it >>> into the wall and powering it on? >>> >>> Sincerely, >>> John Welch >>> >> >> Assuming you have a bridge adapter that goes between the flat cable and >> the drive cable. The bottom drive port should be terminated if you're not >> connecting to a 2nd drive. Here is how I learned what I needed: >> >> http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html >> >> Bill >> >> > The ROM part number should be 751A9, if you're using a 9312, that's the > ROM for the RL01/RL02. The command is DL0 or DL1. If you use "DL" it > assumes drive 0. You can boot off of any drive however. You can install > the ROM in any slot. > > Bill > > Sorry...any of the 4 bootstrap ROM sockets. (not slot *banging head against cabinet*) b From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 16:29:45 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:29:45 -0600 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Thanks! I have everything ready to go..... Except is the flat Berg cable keyed?? The connector for the terminal had "AB" and "UUVV" marked.? This cable has a black strip on one side and it has "0" on the flat face on one end. On 12/14/2017 1:20 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:18 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:10 PM, william degnan > > wrote: > > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk > > wrote: > > Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook > up to the RL02. > > I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the > connectors on the back of the RL02.? I have cabling > stripped from a 11/04. > Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on > the RL02? The machine that was stripped actually was a > RL01, I hope the cable is the same and if not someone will > be able to advise me on that. > > Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? > > Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior > to plugging it into the wall and powering it on? > > Sincerely, > John Welch > > > Assuming you have a bridge adapter that goes between the flat > cable and the drive cable.? The bottom drive port should be > terminated if you're not connecting to a 2nd drive.? Here is > how I learned what I needed: > > http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html > > > Bill > > > The ROM part number should be?751A9, if you're using a 9312, > that's the ROM for the RL01/RL02. The command is DL0 or DL1.? If > you use "DL" it assumes drive 0.? You can boot off of any drive > however.? You can install the ROM in any slot. > > Bill > > > Sorry...any of the 4 bootstrap ROM sockets.? (not slot *banging head > against cabinet*) > > b > -- Sincerely, John Welch 281-353-4706 Home 713-725-7017 Cell :qw From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 17:29:36 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:29:36 -0800 Subject: New Items from VintageTech Archives For Sale: S-100 & DEC boards and miscellaneous Message-ID: Hello all. I am posting these new items for sale. The master list is at the following URL: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New-Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request&p=489390#post489390 New Items for December 14, 2017 S-100 IMSAI VIO - 80x24 character display board used with IMSAI VDP-80; has (3) gold-lidded Intel C2708 EPROMS - $175 North Star Computers 16K RAM Board - qty. 2; fully populated - $40 each / $70 for the pair North Star Computers MDC-4A Micro-Disk Controller - $85 Dynabyte 32K Fully Static RAM Module - fully populated; with original Operating Manual - $50 California Computer Systems Model 2065 64K Dynamic Memory - no RAM chips - $20 Cromemco TU-ART - w/ two ribbon cables terminating in DB-25 (male) and original manual - $25 MSD S100 floppy disk controller with INS1771D chip - $20 Vector 3690-12 S-100 Test Extender - new old stock, still sealed in Vector plastic packaging - $45 (<-- hint: good deal) DEC Camintonn 254 - 1MB QBus RAM boards - qty. 2 - $75 each / $140 for the pair Homebrew/prototype(?) wire-wrap Unibus board wired with (2) Intel P2855A and support chips; 8136-LG498-33-2; can be re-used - $35 M8396 DMF32 I/O - $20 M9202 Unibus Connector, Inverted - $15 G727A Grant Continuity - $5 M9312 Bootstrap Terminator - with Intersil M1-7621-5 PROM in ROM 1 - $60 Emulex SC02/A SMD disk controller; SU0210401 Rev E bootstrap; emulates Digital RP11/RP02/RP03; includes BDV11-compatible line-time clock - $50 M8061 RLV12 RL01/02 QBus Disk Controller - $45 M7957 SG-2 I/O Communication card - $35 USDC 10-1108-02 QBus SCSI Controller - $150 SMS 0108 - some sort of Qbus disk (SCSI?) multi-controller?; has an 80186 and 4 SMS/OMTI PLCC chips - $best offer AD413B Unibus hex module - has two 50-pin connectors; can't find info? - $best offer M8189 KDF11-B CPU - unknown condition; has a succession of maintenance stickers: REJECTED 11/22/84; Clock circuit fails 3 Oct 91; BOOTS UP OK 17 May 96; photos upon request - $40 Miscellaneous Apple 3.5" Drive - $25 Apple 800K External Drive (M0131) - $20 Roland CM-32LLA Sound Module - $60 XOR 12-slot S100 backplane with integrated power supply in chassis; no cover, compact (~12"x18" footprint); good voltages - $35 Electronic Solutions Inc. Multi-CAGE Multi-Bus 12-slot backplane - $5 Vector 4610 Plugboard - STD buss prototyping board, solder pads on one side in structured rows and gold plated edge connector, includes original paperwork LA25-P2 Layout Paper and other inserts - $5 Ampro Little Board/Plus - quirky version unlike other units I found online; has "Abaton" silk-screened onto circuit board, which is longer than the usual LB/Plus; mounted with a 5.25" floppy drive in a small form factor plastic/metal enclosure; cosmetic damage in front from being dropped on one side; unable to test, as is, photos upon request - $50 Additional information and photographs for any item upon request, but please have serious intent to purchase and not just being a looky-loo as I field a lot of requests and it takes a lot of time to process. I'm happy to negotiate a bulk price for multiple items. Your purchases are always packed efficiently with superior care and materials. Shipping is from California. Local pick-up is highly encouraged (you get to shop my inventory in person). International purchasers are always welcome. As always, please send inquiries to me directly via e-mail at < sellam.ismail at gmail.com> for fastest response. Thanks! Sellam From ethan at 757.org Thu Dec 14 17:31:27 2017 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:31:27 -0500 (EST) Subject: WTB: Sun Voyager carry bag Message-ID: If anyone knows a source for the bag that holds the Sun Voyager computer w/ keyboard + mouse I am interested. Would like to keep mine together. - Ethan From useddec at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 18:08:07 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 18:08:07 -0600 Subject: RL02 hook up to 11/04 In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: If the flat cable from the controller is plunged in backwards, you will just get a "fault" indicator on the drive to light up. On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 4:29 PM, John Welch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Thanks! > > I have everything ready to go..... Except is the flat Berg cable keyed? > The connector for the terminal had "AB" and "UUVV" marked. This cable has > a black strip on one side and it has "0" on the flat face on one end. > > > On 12/14/2017 1:20 PM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:18 PM, william degnan > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 2:10 PM, william degnan >> > wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 10:59 AM, John Welch via cctalk >> > wrote: >> >> Now that I have the 11/04 running the next step is to hook >> up to the RL02. >> >> I need to run a cable from the M7762 to one of the >> connectors on the back of the RL02. I have cabling >> stripped from a 11/04. >> Is there a terminator that goes on the other connector on >> the RL02? The machine that was stripped actually was a >> RL01, I hope the cable is the same and if not someone will >> be able to advise me on that. >> >> Do I need to set any jumpers on the M7762? >> >> Are there any other things I should do the the RL02 prior >> to plugging it into the wall and powering it on? >> >> Sincerely, >> John Welch >> >> >> Assuming you have a bridge adapter that goes between the flat >> cable and the drive cable. The bottom drive port should be >> terminated if you're not connecting to a 2nd drive. Here is >> how I learned what I needed: >> >> http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherals/disk/rl-info.html >> >> >> Bill >> >> >> The ROM part number should be 751A9, if you're using a 9312, >> that's the ROM for the RL01/RL02. The command is DL0 or DL1. If >> you use "DL" it assumes drive 0. You can boot off of any drive >> however. You can install the ROM in any slot. >> >> Bill >> >> >> Sorry...any of the 4 bootstrap ROM sockets. (not slot *banging head >> against cabinet*) >> >> b >> >> > -- > Sincerely, > John Welch > 281-353-4706 Home > 713-725-7017 Cell > :qw > > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 19:16:30 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 20:16:30 -0500 Subject: New Items from VintageTech Archives For Sale: S-100 & DEC boards and miscellaneous In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sellam, Interested in: Cromemco TU-ART MSD Floppy controller Asking prices look good to me. Would like pictures on: Unibus prototype board Ampro LittleBoard/PLUS Shipping would be to Buena Vista, VA 24416. Can you give me a rough ball park on shipping costs? Thanks, Jonathan On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 6:29 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello all. I am posting these new items for sale. The master list is at > the following URL: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58709-New- > Items-For-Sale-Check-the-List-and-Make-an-Offer-or-Request& > p=489390#post489390 > > New Items for December 14, 2017 > > S-100 > > IMSAI VIO - 80x24 character display board used with IMSAI VDP-80; has (3) > gold-lidded Intel C2708 EPROMS - $175 > North Star Computers 16K RAM Board - qty. 2; fully populated - $40 each / > $70 for the pair > North Star Computers MDC-4A Micro-Disk Controller - $85 > Dynabyte 32K Fully Static RAM Module - fully populated; with original > Operating Manual - $50 > California Computer Systems Model 2065 64K Dynamic Memory - no RAM chips - > $20 > Cromemco TU-ART - w/ two ribbon cables terminating in DB-25 (male) and > original manual - $25 > MSD S100 floppy disk controller with INS1771D chip - $20 > Vector 3690-12 S-100 Test Extender - new old stock, still sealed in Vector > plastic packaging - $45 (<-- hint: good deal) > > DEC > > Camintonn 254 - 1MB QBus RAM boards - qty. 2 - $75 each / $140 for the pair > Homebrew/prototype(?) wire-wrap Unibus board wired with (2) Intel P2855A > and support chips; 8136-LG498-33-2; can be re-used - $35 > M8396 DMF32 I/O - $20 > M9202 Unibus Connector, Inverted - $15 > G727A Grant Continuity - $5 > M9312 Bootstrap Terminator - with Intersil M1-7621-5 PROM in ROM 1 - $60 > Emulex SC02/A SMD disk controller; SU0210401 Rev E bootstrap; emulates > Digital RP11/RP02/RP03; includes BDV11-compatible line-time clock - $50 > M8061 RLV12 RL01/02 QBus Disk Controller - $45 > M7957 SG-2 I/O Communication card - $35 > USDC 10-1108-02 QBus SCSI Controller - $150 > SMS 0108 - some sort of Qbus disk (SCSI?) multi-controller?; has an 80186 > and 4 SMS/OMTI PLCC chips - $best offer > AD413B Unibus hex module - has two 50-pin connectors; can't find info? - > $best offer > M8189 KDF11-B CPU - unknown condition; has a succession of maintenance > stickers: REJECTED 11/22/84; Clock circuit fails 3 Oct 91; BOOTS UP OK 17 > May 96; photos upon request - $40 > > Miscellaneous > > Apple 3.5" Drive - $25 > Apple 800K External Drive (M0131) - $20 > Roland CM-32LLA Sound Module - $60 > XOR 12-slot S100 backplane with integrated power supply in chassis; no > cover, compact (~12"x18" footprint); good voltages - $35 > Electronic Solutions Inc. Multi-CAGE Multi-Bus 12-slot backplane - $5 > Vector 4610 Plugboard - STD buss prototyping board, solder pads on one side > in structured rows and gold plated edge connector, includes original > paperwork LA25-P2 Layout Paper and other inserts - $5 > Ampro Little Board/Plus - quirky version unlike other units I found online; > has "Abaton" silk-screened onto circuit board, which is longer than the > usual LB/Plus; mounted with a 5.25" floppy drive in a small form factor > plastic/metal enclosure; cosmetic damage in front from being dropped on one > side; unable to test, as is, photos upon request - $50 > > Additional information and photographs for any item upon request, but > please have serious intent to purchase and not just being a looky-loo as I > field a lot of requests and it takes a lot of time to process. > > I'm happy to negotiate a bulk price for multiple items. Your purchases are > always packed efficiently with superior care and materials. Shipping is > from California. Local pick-up is highly encouraged (you get to shop my > inventory in person). International purchasers are always welcome. > > As always, please send inquiries to me directly via e-mail at < > sellam.ismail at gmail.com> for fastest response. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 21:05:47 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 21:05:47 -0600 Subject: DEC compatible Q_BUS boards Message-ID: DEC q-bus compatibles: ANDROMEDA ESDC BROKEN HANDLE Caminton CM-MXV11-B CM-DRV11-WA DHV11/16D 2- CMDHV11 3- CHRISLIN INDUSTRIES CI-1103 DATASYSTEMS DLP-1100 ESP AUGAT 001-2193 3- GTSC 303 (DLV11-J?) MATROX MLSI 2480 MDB STSTEMS MLSI-DRV11C 2- MTI MLV11M-3 NETCOM products NDLV-11E KPV-1180 PLESSEY 705020 DLV11-J? SIGMA 400164 SCD-DHV11 Please contact me OFF LIST! No prices, make an offer. Shipping within US- $10 for up to 4 boards. Outside of US, please inquire. Everything as is. Thanks, Paul From arcadeshopper at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 22:58:47 2017 From: arcadeshopper at gmail.com (Gregory McGill) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 20:58:47 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal Message-ID: I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is too tall and pins are smaller etc.. Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or possibly have one around I can get from you? Greg https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11-25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Thu Dec 14 21:01:55 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 21:01:55 -0600 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> Is there a simple cluedge to convert the indicator light on RL02 from one number to another?? My RL02 has the "2" and I likely need to change that to a "0" Also, I want to examine the contents of the RL02 and hopefully transfer them to the PC to run on SIMH.? Is the windows version of VTServer [ http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm ] the right tool for this job? Sincerely, John Welch From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 14 23:33:32 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 23:33:32 -0600 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: thers 3d printer files for that i forget where On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:01 PM, John Welch via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Is there a simple cluedge to convert the indicator light on RL02 from one > number to another? My RL02 has the "2" and I likely need to change that to > a "0" > > Also, I want to examine the contents of the RL02 and hopefully transfer > them to the PC to run on SIMH. Is the windows version of VTServer [ > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm ] the right tool for this > job? > > > Sincerely, > John Welch > > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 15 00:16:46 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 22:16:46 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/14/2017 08:58 PM, Gregory McGill via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power > plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is too > tall and pins are smaller etc.. > > Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or possibly > have one around I can get from you? > > Greg > > https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11-25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG > https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 > Yup, that's the old Belden 17952 or 17281 (depending on polarity) cord. Still available if you look hard enough. Used to be very common on office equipment of the late 1960 and early 70s as well as HP test equipment. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 15 00:20:00 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 22:20:00 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <28774635-9e1a-19b5-683d-1046432f5521@sydex.com> On 12/14/2017 08:58 PM, Gregory McGill via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power > plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is too > tall and pins are smaller etc.. > > Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or possibly > have one around I can get from you? > > Greg > > https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11-25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG > https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 > >From the looks of your unit, it might just be simpler to fit it with a standard IEC receptacle. Note that the cutout is already rectangular, so an IEC may just fit without any case modification. --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Dec 15 01:18:01 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 23:18:01 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539785EC-10B9-4131-9929-F4E21E2111D6@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-14, at 8:58 PM, Gregory McGill via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power > plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is too > tall and pins are smaller etc.. > > Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or possibly > have one around I can get from you? > > Greg > > https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11-25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG > https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 https://web.archive.org/web/20150310022909/http://www.cs.ubc.ca:80/~hilpert/e/powerConn/index.html From bhilpert at shaw.ca Fri Dec 15 01:26:57 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 23:26:57 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal In-Reply-To: <28774635-9e1a-19b5-683d-1046432f5521@sydex.com> References: <28774635-9e1a-19b5-683d-1046432f5521@sydex.com> Message-ID: <0441DBBB-3F81-49B5-B103-195157C886F0@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-14, at 10:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/14/2017 08:58 PM, Gregory McGill via cctalk wrote: >> I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power >> plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is too >> tall and pins are smaller etc.. >> >> Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or possibly >> have one around I can get from you? >> >> Greg >> >> https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11-25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 >> > > From the looks of your unit, it might just be simpler to fit it with a > standard IEC receptacle. Note that the cutout is already rectangular, > so an IEC may just fit without any case modification. The screw holes have a slightly different spacing between the two types, they have to be 'moved' (filed) out about a mm each; and it looks like the existing opening will have to be enlarged vertically a bit. If there's nothing interfering on the inside it does look like an easy candidate for replacement with IEC. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 01:31:37 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 02:31:37 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: You can simply boot with thr commanf @ DL2 PDPGUI is a great tool to build actual disks from a simh rl02 image. This way you can test first, get it working, then transfer via m7856 and m9312. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 15, 2017 12:33 AM, "Adrian Stoness via cctalk" wrote: > thers 3d printer files for that i forget where > > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:01 PM, John Welch via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Is there a simple cluedge to convert the indicator light on RL02 from one > > number to another? My RL02 has the "2" and I likely need to change that > to > > a "0" > > > > Also, I want to examine the contents of the RL02 and hopefully transfer > > them to the PC to run on SIMH. Is the windows version of VTServer [ > > http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/vtserver.htm ] the right tool for > this > > job? > > > > > > Sincerely, > > John Welch > > > > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 15 01:36:30 2017 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 23:36:30 -0800 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> Message-ID: <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> From: Adrian Stoness via cctalk: Thursday, December 14, 2017 9:33 PM > On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 9:01 PM, John Welch via cctalk wrote: >> Is there a simple cluedge to convert the indicator light on RL02 from one >> number to another? My RL02 has the "2" and I likely need to change that to >> a "0" > thers 3d printer files for that i forget where Mine are available here: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php It's a fairly finicky print. Fine detail and cantilevered thin pins that need to be straight and reasonably strong. Shapeways does a fine job printing them for about $4, though. Vince From steven at malikoff.com Fri Dec 15 05:47:57 2017 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 21:47:57 +1000 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE Message-ID: <9b418b691ce8aa66c5caa61cb5ea97cd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE No connection to the seller, but they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. $150 Buy it now. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MEMOREX-3693-2-3690-2-Disc-Drive-Mainframe-IBM-3370-2-VINTAGE/272983151498 or eBay item number: 272983151498 Steve. From p.gebhardt at ymail.com Fri Dec 15 06:04:46 2017 From: p.gebhardt at ymail.com (P Gebhardt) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 12:04:46 +0000 (UTC) Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: <9b418b691ce8aa66c5caa61cb5ea97cd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <9b418b691ce8aa66c5caa61cb5ea97cd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <643182143.9255326.1513339486846@mail.yahoo.com> >eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE > >No connection to the seller, but they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. $150 Buy it now. >https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MEMOREX-3693-2-3690-2-Disc-Drive-Mainframe-IBM-3370-2-VINTAGE/272983151498 >or eBay item number: 272983151498 > >Steve. I saw that one today, too! If it wouldn't be across the great pond, then I would try to save these drives from being scrapped.It would be a real shame if nobody could take them. This Memorex equipment is very rare to come across. All the best,Pierre ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Dec 15 06:23:06 2017 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 12:23:06 +0000 Subject: It's back Message-ID: After a? couple of months of outage my list feed is back.. Rod Smallwood -- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 15 07:20:28 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 08:20:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE Message-ID: <20171215132028.AB72518C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. Don't be misled by the .au URL; the units are in Sacramento, CA. Anyone in the Bay area up for saving these? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 08:15:08 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:15:08 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk wrote: > Mine are available here: > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > > It's a fairly finicky print. Fine detail and cantilevered thin pins that > need to be straight and reasonably strong. I printed out one on a FormLabs Form1+. Came out very nicely. > Shapeways does a fine job printing them for about $4, though. I don't know that it was much cheaper when I did it - the resin is $125/liter. The advantage of Shapeways is you can have it made out of something less brittle than FormLab resin. My part will work, but I wouldn't want to drop it - the legs would probably shatter. -ethan From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 08:38:35 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 09:38:35 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary image, suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. Be advised, it takes a *long* time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:15 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: > > Mine are available here: > > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > > > > It's a fairly finicky print. Fine detail and cantilevered thin pins that > > need to be straight and reasonably strong. > > I printed out one on a FormLabs Form1+. Came out very nicely. > > > Shapeways does a fine job printing them for about $4, though. > > I don't know that it was much cheaper when I did it - the resin is > $125/liter. > > The advantage of Shapeways is you can have it made out of something > less brittle than FormLab resin. My part will work, but I wouldn't > want to drop it - the legs would probably shatter. > > -ethan > From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 09:06:24 2017 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 15:06:24 +0000 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: <20171215132028.AB72518C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171215132028.AB72518C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: Is the CHM in Mountain View aware of these? So awesome... unfortunately I'm in a 2BR in NYC, also I only have 1 phase 120v, also wooden flooring, also no A/C, also zero practical use for it but when has that stopped us? =P On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 8:20 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Steven Malikoff > > > they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. > > Don't be misled by the .au URL; the units are in Sacramento, CA. Anyone in > the Bay area up for saving these? > > Noel > -- -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:29:02 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:29:02 -0800 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: References: <20171215132028.AB72518C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 7:06 AM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote: > Is the CHM in Mountain View aware of these? CuriousMarc has been there for one of his pick ups as seen in one of his videos so they probably know of anything that modemdepot currently has that is worth saving. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vi1Mw4CHpyU From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:34:08 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:34:08 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch wrote: > vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary image, > suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. > Be advised, it takes a *long* > time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at ludicrous speed. -ethan From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:40:34 2017 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:40:34 -0800 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch > wrote: >> vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary image, >> suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. > > Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. > >> Be advised, it takes a *long* >> time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. > > Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or > Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so > easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? > > I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep > up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at > ludicrous speed. > > -ethan My method of creating images of several RL02 disks was to set up a PDP-11 system running 2.11BSD with an RL02 controller and Ethernet interface, then 'dd' the disks to image files on the local system and then FTP the image files out to a modern system. Still seemed slow, but not as slow as a serial port connection. From arcadeshopper at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:44:13 2017 From: arcadeshopper at gmail.com (Gregory McGill) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:44:13 -0800 Subject: ISC Intecolor 8300 terminal In-Reply-To: <0441DBBB-3F81-49B5-B103-195157C886F0@shaw.ca> References: <28774635-9e1a-19b5-683d-1046432f5521@sydex.com> <0441DBBB-3F81-49B5-B103-195157C886F0@shaw.ca> Message-ID: Thank you all for the information I found a power cord on ebay! I really appreciate it! Greg On Thu, Dec 14, 2017 at 11:26 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > On 2017-Dec-14, at 10:20 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/14/2017 08:58 PM, Gregory McGill via cctalk wrote: > >> I recently picked this up from shopgoodwill and it has an older power > >> plug. It is NOT a standard plug as shown in the picture below that is > too > >> tall and pins are smaller etc.. > >> > >> Anyone know the name of this 'standard' so I can find a cable? Or > possibly > >> have one around I can get from you? > >> > >> Greg > >> > >> https://sgws3productimages.azureedge.net/sgwproductimages/images/8/11- > 25-2017/310248925111157io.JPG > >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/HzXVUDqfCv5U7zBC2 > >> > > > > From the looks of your unit, it might just be simpler to fit it with a > > standard IEC receptacle. Note that the cutout is already rectangular, > > so an IEC may just fit without any case modification. > > > The screw holes have a slightly different spacing between the two types, > they have to be 'moved' (filed) out about a mm each; > and it looks like the existing opening will have to be enlarged vertically > a bit. > If there's nothing interfering on the inside it does look like an easy > candidate for replacement with IEC. From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:49:14 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:49:14 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: It's on my list of things to do -- you can run external clock into DL11 and DLV11-J style connectors, and IM6402 UARTs are supposed to go up to 2 mbit, so somewhere between 38400 and 2 mbit should be possible. I believe it'll require external RS-232 transceivers due to the design of the ones used on various DEC boards. As you say, whether or not the bus/CPU can keep up is another matter! Figure if I can get any real improvement out of it, I'll lay out a board and provide high-speed kits. Anyone know of a 40-pin UART with a FIFO? :) Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch > wrote: > > vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary > image, > > suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. > > Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. > > > Be advised, it takes a *long* > > time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. > > Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or > Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so > easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? > > I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep > up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at > ludicrous speed. > > -ethan > From systems.glitch at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 12:51:00 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 13:51:00 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: This would be the Right Way. I've got my PDP-11/73 set up for that, I still need to build the kernel driver for the Ethernet interface and get TCP/IP going. I have dozens of RX02 floppies to work through, much faster than serial, and the vtserver `rx` driver has a bug in it anyway where it continues reading past the end of the media (not harmful to the disk/drive, but you have to sit there and watch it). Thanks, Jonathan On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:40 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 10:34 AM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk > wrote: > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch > > wrote: > >> vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary > image, > >> suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. > > > > Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. > > > >> Be advised, it takes a *long* > >> time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. > > > > Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or > > Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so > > easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? > > > > I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep > > up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at > > ludicrous speed. > > > > -ethan > > My method of creating images of several RL02 disks was to set up a > PDP-11 system running 2.11BSD with an RL02 controller and Ethernet > interface, then 'dd' the disks to image files on the local system and > then FTP the image files out to a modern system. Still seemed slow, > but not as slow as a serial port connection. > From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 15 12:54:35 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 10:54:35 -0800 Subject: FS: WD37C65 PLCC44 x 13 Message-ID: <06bf1b30-be4e-bffe-b34a-0fc0a2da7921@sydex.com> Anyone looking for these old WD controllers? I've got a mixed tube of the WD37C65-02 parts and the SMC FDC37C65B equivalents. $10+shipping takes the lot. --Chuck From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Fri Dec 15 13:20:46 2017 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 11:20:46 -0800 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: From: Ethan Dicks: Friday, December 15, 2017 6:15 AM > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 2:36 AM, Vincent Slyngstad via cctalk > wrote: >> Mine are available here: >> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php >> >> It's a fairly finicky print. Fine detail and cantilevered thin pins that >> need to be straight and reasonably strong. > > I printed out one on a FormLabs Form1+. Came out very nicely. Yeah, I think a resin printer should handle the detail nicely. >> Shapeways does a fine job printing them for about $4, though. > > I don't know that it was much cheaper when I did it - the resin is $125/liter. > > The advantage of Shapeways is you can have it made out of something > less brittle than FormLab resin. My part will work, but I wouldn't > want to drop it - the legs would probably shatter. I hear there are less brittle resins these days, but yeah. If the resin is like the resin print from Shapeways, I'd even worry that a bit of torque inserting or removing it would snap off a pin. The sintered nylon from Shapeways, on the other hand, is tough, only a few bucks, and minimal hassle (except for the wait). Even comes out in translucent white :-). Are there another print vendors/technologies folks have had luck with with small, finely detailed replacement parts? Vince From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 13:22:13 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 14:22:13 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:49 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > It's on my list of things to do -- you can run external clock into DL11 and > DLV11-J style connectors, and IM6402 UARTs are supposed to go up to 2 mbit, > so somewhere between 38400 and 2 mbit should be possible. Good to know the IM6402s will go that fast. > I believe it'll > require external RS-232 transceivers due to the design of the ones used on > various DEC boards. Yeah... that's kinda why I was thinking of hacking a DLV11J or DL11-W... I have a number of each of those and have no problems making multiple changes for the purposes of media slurping. They are common boards and hacking 1-2 of them isn't going to increase scarcity. A side-effect of modding the DLV11J could be high-speed TU58 emulation... > Figure if I can get any real improvement out of it, I'll lay > out a board and provide high-speed kits. I'm available for any experimentation, etc. I have plenty of mid-range PDP-11 hardware for this sort of experimentation. > Anyone know of a 40-pin UART with a FIFO? :) I do not, but it would have to be a transparent FIFO - that was one of the problems with the 8250/16550 was the host code had to know about the FIFO, so the 16550 worked fine as a 8250 but also supported the 16-byte FIFO that drastically cut interrupt overhead. I do not know of any material enhancements to the IM6402 in any subsequent chips. -ethan From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Fri Dec 15 13:57:59 2017 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 19:57:59 +0000 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> , Message-ID: Van: Ethan Dicks via cctalk Verzonden: vrijdag 15 december 2017 19:34 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: RL02 to PC image On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch wrote: > vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary image, > suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. > Be advised, it takes a *long* > time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at ludicrous speed. -ethan I have not yet had time to build/test it, but a few months ago there was an RL01/RL02 emulator project on VCF. You need a PDP-11 with RL11 controller. The RL0x emultor connects to the RL11 just as an RL01/RL02 disk drive and you can assign it any drive number (0 - 3). But what is really nice is that the emulator cooperates with real RL drives. So, you can have one real RL0x drive and up to 3 ?emulated? RL drives. The storage is a flash card. The RT-11) command .COPY DL0:*.* DL1: works (where #0 is real, and #1 is flash). After the copy you pull the flash card and copy it on a PC. From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Dec 15 16:06:48 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 17:06:48 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: > > > > > I have not yet had time to build/test it, but a few months ago there > was an RL01/RL02 emulator project on VCF. You need a PDP-11 > with RL11 controller. The RL0x emultor connects to the RL11 > just as an RL01/RL02 disk drive and you can assign it any drive > number (0 - 3). > But what is really nice is that the emulator cooperates with > real RL drives. So, you can have one real RL0x drive and up > to 3 ?emulated? RL drives. The storage is a flash card. > The RT-11) command .COPY DL0:*.* DL1: works (where #0 is real, > and #1 is flash). > After the copy you pull the flash card and copy it on a PC. > > I still need to build mine.... b From chrise at pobox.com Fri Dec 15 20:59:58 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 20:59:58 -0600 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <20171214132339.9E66118C09A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: <5CD07E5B-52D3-4AFA-BDFC-0C498587405D@pobox.com> I thought about doing this with an FTDI FT245, which is a parallel to USB FIFO device that looks like a USB serial port to the USB-side host. USB protocol will manage all the ?flow control? and so the PDP can write to it as fast as it can. We did a similar thing on Heathkit H89 and H8 machines, replacing an 8250 UART with the FT245 and then rolling some code on the Heath side to send and receive files to a PC host. -- Chris Elmquist > On Dec 15, 2017, at 12:49 PM, systems_glitch via cctalk wrote: > > It's on my list of things to do -- you can run external clock into DL11 and > DLV11-J style connectors, and IM6402 UARTs are supposed to go up to 2 mbit, > so somewhere between 38400 and 2 mbit should be possible. I believe it'll > require external RS-232 transceivers due to the design of the ones used on > various DEC boards. As you say, whether or not the bus/CPU can keep up is > another matter! Figure if I can get any real improvement out of it, I'll > lay out a board and provide high-speed kits. > > Anyone know of a 40-pin UART with a FIFO? :) > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:34 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 9:38 AM, systems_glitch >> wrote: >>> vtserver does indeed work for transferring RL02 contents to a binary >> image, >>> suitable for use with SIMH or E11 or whatever. >> >> Yep. I backed up the RD52 in a new-to-me MicroPDP-11 and it took hours. >> >>> Be advised, it takes a *long* >>> time, even on a 11/73 with the serial port turned up to 38400 bps. >> >> Has anyone done any console serial port hacking for speed on Qbus or >> Unibus? On something integrated like a KDF11-B it might not be so >> easy, but maybe a DLV11J or a DL11W? >> >> I'd think hitting 115200 would be really sweet, if everything can keep >> up. Totally worth some experimentation to see what part gives out at >> ludicrous speed. >> >> -ethan >> From blstuart at bellsouth.net Fri Dec 15 22:09:41 2017 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 04:09:41 +0000 (UTC) Subject: RL02 to PC image References: <681640919.180304.1513397381204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <681640919.180304.1513397381204@mail.yahoo.com> On Fri, 12/15/17, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 1:49 PM, systems_glitch wrote: > > It's on my list of things to do -- you can run external clock into DL11 and > > DLV11-J style connectors, and IM6402 UARTs are supposed to go up to 2 mbit, > > so somewhere between 38400 and 2 mbit should be possible. > > A side-effect of modding the DLV11J could be high-speed TU58 emulation... The LSI-11 I had at last spring's VCFs did that with a little home-brew 6809 board I was using for TU58 emulation. I wasn't going into a DLV11 per se, but into an MXV11. I'd have to go back and look at the details to see how fast it was actually running. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I had to back off a little bit on what the hardware could do because something on the software side couldn't take it that fast. BLS From cclist at sydex.com Fri Dec 15 23:35:40 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 15 Dec 2017 21:35:40 -0800 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: <681640919.180304.1513397381204@mail.yahoo.com> References: <681640919.180304.1513397381204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <681640919.180304.1513397381204@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <34db7746-cb45-dfcc-60e8-04633c51bb1a@sydex.com> On 12/15/2017 08:09 PM, Brian L. Stuart via cctalk wrote: > I'd have to go back and look at the details to see how fast it was actually > running. Somewhere in the back of my mind, I had to back off a little > bit on what the hardware could do because something on the software > side couldn't take it that fast. I've lately been doing the data transfer stuff using STM32F407 development boards. Cheap ($12 shipped), with a 168MHz ARM CPU and 84Mhz peripheral clocks with multichannel DMA to 192K RAM. Lots of fast 5V tolerant GPIO. In my case, I use the SDIO facility (4 wire) to an SDHC, with Chan's FATFS filesystem code. Do all your imaging to SDHC (a 16 or 32GB card should image a lot of RL02s) and then read the card on a PC platform. Simple, fast and cheap. If you need UARTs, they're on the chip as well and can run stupid-fast. Welcome to the 21st century. Cheers, Chuck From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 16 06:59:32 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 12:59:32 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe they are all bad! Just booted straight into RT-11. Thanks all for your help anyway. Time to play. Aaron. Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes: > Hi everyone, > > I originally posted this on VCFed (which was new to me) but the > moderation queue has had me waiting for about 3 days, so I thought I'd > ask here as well, the usual of gurus. :) > > I was recently sent an RXV21 controller so I could test out my RX02 > drive. When I power up the PDP-11 or reset the machine I get the nice > clunking sound which I have been told is normal. I expect I wouldn't > hear this if the ribbon cable was in the wrong way. > > To test, I tried to use VTserver to dump the contents of a disk, but it > immediately threw an error. I soon realised there are two DIP switches > on the logic board of the RX02 drive which had to be adjusted to work > with the RXV21. So, I had some progress. Output of VTserver almost > looked promising but then it hangs, as below: > > ]] Tape record n from device xx is written as xx(0,0,n) > ]] Disk drive xx is written as xx(0,0,0) > ]] > ]] Enter name of input record/device: rx(0,0,0) > ]] Enter name of output record/device: vt(0,0,1) > ]] > ]] Opened copy.out read-write > ]] > > So, following some advice I booted via TU58em into XXDP and ran the > diagnostics: > > ]] DR>STA > ]] > ]] CHANGE HW (L) ? N > ]] > ]] CHANGE SW (L) ? N > ]] > ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 00 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 > ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST > ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR > ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 > ]] REG EXPECT=000000 > ]] > ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": > ]] INTERFACE - M8029 > ]] > ]] UNIT#0 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> > ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 > ]] DROP UNIT#0 FROM TEST > ]] > ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT > ]] CZRXFB0 SYS FTL ERR 00040 ON UNIT 01 TST 011 SUB 000 PC: 003476 > ]] CSR BITS - LGC TST > ]] AC LOW FATAL ERROR > ]] REG ACTUAL=000000 > ]] REG EXPECT=000000 > ]] > ]] POSSIBLE FAILING "FRU'S": > ]] INTERFACE - M8029 > ]] > ]] UNIT#1 RXCSR=000000 RXESR=000000 CMD=000000 -> > ]] ->NO PWR, CABLED BACKWARDS, STRAPPED RX01, PDP-8 > ]] DROP UNIT#1 FROM TEST > ]] > ]] PASS ABRTD THS UNIT > ]] CZRXFB0 EOP 1 > ]] 2 TOTAL ERRS > > So, the possible errors according to XXDP: > > - Bad power - I get 25v, 5v and -5v. The motors are spinning, not > convinced it is this? > > - Cable backwards - I don't think I'd be hearing that clunk. > > - Strapped RX01 - I don't know what this means > > - PDP8 - eh? > > If anyone has any suggestions it would be great to hear them. > > Thanks, > Aaron. -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 16 09:25:57 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 10:25:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <20171216152557.8043618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Aaron Jackson > It was the disks after all. Well, I'm glad you got it working. Where'd you get a good floppy? Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 16 10:48:21 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:48:21 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <20171216152557.8043618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171216152557.8043618C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <87efnuobze.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > > From: Aaron Jackson > > > It was the disks after all. > > Well, I'm glad you got it working. Where'd you get a good floppy? > > Noel Friend popped over with an RX02 drive and a working RT-11 floppy. The drive worked with my controller so I tried the disk in my own drive and it booted up straight away. He suggested it might be likely that all my drives were magnetically erased before I got them. I think this is quite likely. There is still one RX02 mystery though... VTserver will not dump the working disk, despite the system being able to boot from it. It's double density, so I am a bit surprised. Thanks, Aaron. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 16 12:43:11 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 10:43:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe > they are all bad! I can believe it. Were they "bad"? Or just not what they were labelled as being? -- Grumpy Ol' Fred cisin at xenosoft.com From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 16 13:02:20 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 11:02:20 -0800 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe >> they are all bad! > > I can believe it. > Were they "bad"? > Or just not what they were labelled as being? I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS (different index aperture position). --Chuck From ggs at shiresoft.com Sat Dec 16 13:28:52 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 11:28:52 -0800 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: <643182143.9255326.1513339486846@mail.yahoo.com> References: <9b418b691ce8aa66c5caa61cb5ea97cd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <643182143.9255326.1513339486846@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > > > >> eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE >> >> No connection to the seller, but they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. $150 Buy it now. >> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MEMOREX-3693-2-3690-2-Disc-Drive-Mainframe-IBM-3370-2-VINTAGE/272983151498 >> or eBay item number: 272983151498 >> >> Steve. > I saw that one today, too! If it wouldn't be across the great pond, then I would try to save these drives from being scrapped.It would be a real shame if nobody could take them. This Memorex equipment is very rare to come across. > I *really* want them and I?m within an hour (usually) of where they are. The problem is that right now I?m on a business trip until the end of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31. So I can?t get them unless a miracle happens. TTFN - Guy From systems.glitch at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 14:19:30 2017 From: systems.glitch at gmail.com (systems_glitch) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 15:19:30 -0500 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> Message-ID: We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM, of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert RX01s to RX02s. Thanks, Jonathan On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > >> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe > >> they are all bad! > > > > I can believe it. > > Were they "bad"? > > Or just not what they were labelled as being? > > I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). > ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. > > The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS > (different index aperture position). > > --Chuck > > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 16 14:28:53 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 20:28:53 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11. My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from. I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too? While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02 drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is launch itself over odt. RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are UNIX or maybe they are dead packs... Thanks, Aaron. systems_glitch via cctalk writes: > We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk > on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM, > of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert > RX01s to RX02s. > > Thanks, > Jonathan > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >> > On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> >> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe >> >> they are all bad! >> > >> > I can believe it. >> > Were they "bad"? >> > Or just not what they were labelled as being? >> >> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). >> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. >> >> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS >> (different index aperture position). >> >> --Chuck >> >> >> -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From jsw at ieee.org Sat Dec 16 15:21:05 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 15:21:05 -0600 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: Glad to hear that you cleared that up. For the other floppies. 1) DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on the floppies. 2) DIR/BAD DY1: will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the media. It does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name. It uses the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV You will hear the floppy reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry. The number of retries is configurable via a SET command. For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file name of files affected by unreadable blocks. You can do the same with the RL02 Drives. Jerry > On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > > I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them > were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11. > > My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from > any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones > labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random > files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from. > > I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in > RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to > put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too? > > While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02 > drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it > was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is > launch itself over odt. > > RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are > UNIX or maybe they are dead packs... > > Thanks, > Aaron. > > > systems_glitch via cctalk writes: > >> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk >> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM, >> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert >> RX01s to RX02s. >> >> Thanks, >> Jonathan >> >> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe >>>>> they are all bad! >>>> >>>> I can believe it. >>>> Were they "bad"? >>>> Or just not what they were labelled as being? >>> >>> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). >>> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. >>> >>> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS >>> (different index aperture position). >>> >>> --Chuck >>> >>> >>> > > > -- > Aaron Jackson > PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham > http://aaronsplace.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Dec 16 15:48:39 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 16:48:39 -0500 (EST) Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE Message-ID: <20171216214839.C052F18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > I *really* want them and I'm within an hour (usually) of where they > are. The problem is that right now I'm on a business trip until the end > of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31. Why don't you reach out to the person and tell them you _really_ want them, maybe they'll be able to let it go until you get back? Or is there someone in the Sacramanto area who can pick them up and hold them until Guy can get them? I would offer to, but I'm on the wrong coast.... :-( Noel From allisonportable at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 16:51:48 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:51:48 -0500 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: If you have a system that can create/format SSSD (base RX01 media format) RT11 can reformat that as RX02.? Of the top of my hear the command is INIT and you specify the drive and /double.? It cannot format a blank disk but it can set a RX01 format to double density. Note a RX02 on a PDP-11 will not boot RT11 if it has the RX01 boot drive in place, you must have the RX02 driver built into the boot. Whenever you have a disk fail its advisable to check the heads for crud buildup (on RX01, RX02, or RX33 and RX23) as sometimes the binder on the media goes to goo and coats the head.? If that happens the next good disk can have the media gouged off.? Been there done that.? I always test new media (dir /bad) on drive 2 so if it fails the system still boots and likeliness of munging the boot media is lower. I use my S100 CP/M crate for format blanks for RX01 and using R11CPM I can copy files between the two system (sneakerware). To read a RX02 formatted disk you must have a RX02 or one of the functional equivalents like a DSD or Emulex.? PCs cannot without a special board. A slick trick for Qbus 11s is install a RQDX2/3 and put a RX33 or RX23 drive on that as the formats they use are PC readable at the base ODS.? I managed to get a few RQDX3s just for that in the various Qbus 11s I have.? Even if you do not have a MFM hard disk for the RQDX2/3 is a good choice for floppies and it can format media.? It also can store more on the media. Allison On 12/16/2017 04:21 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: > Glad to hear that you cleared that up. > > For the other floppies. > > 1) DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: > If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on the floppies. > > 2) DIR/BAD DY1: > will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the media. It > does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name. It uses > the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV You will hear the floppy > reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry. The number of retries > is configurable via a SET command. > > For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file name > of files affected by unreadable blocks. > > You can do the same with the RL02 Drives. > > Jerry > >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> >> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them >> were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11. >> >> My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from >> any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones >> labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random >> files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from. >> >> I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in >> RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to >> put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too? >> >> While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02 >> drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it >> was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is >> launch itself over odt. >> >> RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are >> UNIX or maybe they are dead packs... >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. >> >> >> systems_glitch via cctalk writes: >> >>> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk >>> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM, >>> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert >>> RX01s to RX02s. >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Jonathan >>> >>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe >>>>>> they are all bad! >>>>> I can believe it. >>>>> Were they "bad"? >>>>> Or just not what they were labelled as being? >>>> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). >>>> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. >>>> >>>> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS >>>> (different index aperture position). >>>> >>>> --Chuck >>>> >>>> >>>> >> >> -- >> Aaron Jackson >> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham >> http://aaronsplace.co.uk > > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sat Dec 16 17:01:58 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 23:01:58 +0000 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87a7yinuop.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Thanks for the tips! :) Aaron. allison via cctalk writes: > If you have a system that can create/format SSSD (base RX01 media > format) RT11 can > reformat that as RX02. Of the top of my hear the command is INIT and > you specify the > drive and /double. It cannot format a blank disk but it can set a RX01 > format to > double density. > > Note a RX02 on a PDP-11 will not boot RT11 if it has the RX01 boot drive > in place, you must have > the RX02 driver built into the boot. > > Whenever you have a disk fail its advisable to check the heads for crud > buildup (on RX01, RX02, > or RX33 and RX23) as sometimes the binder on the media goes to goo and > coats the head. If > that happens the next good disk can have the media gouged off. Been > there done that. I > always test new media (dir /bad) on drive 2 so if it fails the system > still boots and likeliness > of munging the boot media is lower. > > I use my S100 CP/M crate for format blanks for RX01 and using R11CPM I > can copy files > between the two system (sneakerware). > > To read a RX02 formatted disk you must have a RX02 or one of the > functional equivalents like a DSD > or Emulex. PCs cannot without a special board. > > A slick trick for Qbus 11s is install a RQDX2/3 and put a RX33 or RX23 > drive on that as the formats > they use are PC readable at the base ODS. I managed to get a few RQDX3s > just for that in the various > Qbus 11s I have. Even if you do not have a MFM hard disk for the > RQDX2/3 is a good choice for floppies > and it can format media. It also can store more on the media. > > > Allison > > > > On 12/16/2017 04:21 PM, Jerry Weiss via cctalk wrote: >> Glad to hear that you cleared that up. >> >> For the other floppies. >> >> 1) DUMP/TERM/RAD50/END:0 DY1: >> If you share the listing that will give us some hints as to the OS on the floppies. >> >> 2) DIR/BAD DY1: >> will do a bad block scan to see if can read all of the blocks on the media. It >> does not require an RT11 directory, despite the command name. It uses >> the utility DUP.SAV with the K option, not DIR.SAV You will hear the floppy >> reset if it sees a bad spot as it attempts a retry. The number of retries >> is configurable via a SET command. >> >> For files with an RT11 Directory, DIR/BAD/FILES will include the file name >> of files affected by unreadable blocks. >> >> You can do the same with the RL02 Drives. >> >> Jerry >> >>> On Dec 16, 2017, at 2:28 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>> >>> I just checked all of them in RT-11, out of 12 floppies, two of them >>> were bad, or at least I am unable to perform dir in RT-11. >>> >>> My source of confusion comes from both A) not being able to boot from >>> any of them, and B) not being able to dump them using vtserver. The ones >>> labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random >>> files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from. >>> >>> I'm not sure why vtserver doesn't seem to work though. I have Kermit in >>> RT-11, is there a way to dump the other drive over this? I would like to >>> put LSI Unix on one of the floppies, can this be done with Kermit too? >>> >>> While on the topic of vtserver, it also doesn't seem to like my RL02 >>> drive. If I try to write to it or dump a cartridge, it tells me that it >>> was unable to read the labelsector. About the thing vtserver has done is >>> launch itself over odt. >>> >>> RT-11 is unable to list the files on the RL02 drive, but maybe they are >>> UNIX or maybe they are dead packs... >>> >>> Thanks, >>> Aaron. >>> >>> >>> systems_glitch via cctalk writes: >>> >>>> We've gotten around the formatting issue by formatting SSSD using ImageDisk >>>> on a regular PC (with a floppy controller that supports single density/FM, >>>> of course). If you want RX02 media there's an XXDP routine to upconvert >>>> RX01s to RX02s. >>>> >>>> Thanks, >>>> Jonathan >>>> >>>> On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 2:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >>>> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 12/16/2017 10:43 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: >>>>>> On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >>>>>>> Well, would you believe it. It was the disks after all. I can't believe >>>>>>> they are all bad! >>>>>> I can believe it. >>>>>> Were they "bad"? >>>>>> Or just not what they were labelled as being? >>>>> I suspect that they weren't formatted to the 3740 spec (26/128 FM). >>>>> ISTR that the RX02 doesn't have formatting abilities. >>>>> >>>>> The other possibility is that the disks were DS rather than SS >>>>> (different index aperture position). >>>>> >>>>> --Chuck >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>> >>> -- >>> Aaron Jackson >>> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham >>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk >> >> >> -- Aaron Jackson PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham http://aaronsplace.co.uk From chrise at pobox.com Sat Dec 16 17:10:04 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:10:04 -0600 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> Message-ID: <20171216231004.GA5902@n0jcf.net> On Friday (12/15/2017 at 07:57PM +0000), Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > I have not yet had time to build/test it, but a few months ago there > was an RL01/RL02 emulator project on VCF. You need a PDP-11 > with RL11 controller. The RL0x emultor connects to the RL11 > just as an RL01/RL02 disk drive and you can assign it any drive > number (0 - 3). > But what is really nice is that the emulator cooperates with > real RL drives. So, you can have one real RL0x drive and up > to 3 ?emulated? RL drives. The storage is a flash card. > The RT-11) command .COPY DL0:*.* DL1: works (where #0 is real, > and #1 is flash). > After the copy you pull the flash card and copy it on a PC. I am interested in this. Does anyone have a reference/link to the thread on "VCF"? Searching for most of these terms has not found me anything... In fact, searching for ANYTHING on VCF finds me nothing. Curious. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 17:15:22 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:15:22 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: <20171216231004.GA5902@n0jcf.net> References: <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> <20171216231004.GA5902@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Friday (12/15/2017 at 07:57PM +0000), Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: > > > > I have not yet had time to build/test it, but a few months ago there > > was an RL01/RL02 emulator project on VCF. You need a PDP-11 > > with RL11 controller. The RL0x emultor connects to the RL11 > > just as an RL01/RL02 disk drive and you can assign it any drive > > number (0 - 3). > > But what is really nice is that the emulator cooperates with > > real RL drives. So, you can have one real RL0x drive and up > > to 3 ?emulated? RL drives. The storage is a flash card. > > The RT-11) command .COPY DL0:*.* DL1: works (where #0 is real, > > and #1 is flash). > > After the copy you pull the flash card and copy it on a PC. > > I am interested in this. Does anyone have a reference/link to the thread > on "VCF"? Searching for most of these terms has not found me anything... > In fact, searching for ANYTHING on VCF finds me nothing. Curious. > > Chris > > -- > Chris Elmquist > Chris, I looked for the thread and I can't find it either. It's almost like someone deleted old threads, or achieved them. I will check into it. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 17:18:30 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 18:18:30 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <65e2c781-d513-9b05-45e7-9e2e2ada9294@hal-pc.org> <22B57581E574458E8550CBBADA69C836@Vincew7> <20171216231004.GA5902@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:15 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Sat, Dec 16, 2017 at 6:10 PM, Chris Elmquist via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> On Friday (12/15/2017 at 07:57PM +0000), Henk Gooijen via cctalk wrote: >> > >> > I have not yet had time to build/test it, but a few months ago there >> > was an RL01/RL02 emulator project on VCF. You need a PDP-11 >> > with RL11 controller. The RL0x emultor connects to the RL11 >> > just as an RL01/RL02 disk drive and you can assign it any drive >> > number (0 - 3). >> > But what is really nice is that the emulator cooperates with >> > real RL drives. So, you can have one real RL0x drive and up >> > to 3 ?emulated? RL drives. The storage is a flash card. >> > The RT-11) command .COPY DL0:*.* DL1: works (where #0 is real, >> > and #1 is flash). >> > After the copy you pull the flash card and copy it on a PC. >> >> I am interested in this. Does anyone have a reference/link to the thread >> on "VCF"? Searching for most of these terms has not found me anything... >> In fact, searching for ANYTHING on VCF finds me nothing. Curious. >> >> Chris >> >> -- >> Chris Elmquist >> > > Found it > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?58077-DEC-RL01-RL02-disk-emulator-with-PCB-board&highlight=DE10 Bill From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Dec 16 18:59:34 2017 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 19:59:34 -0500 Subject: RL02 to PC image Message-ID: > Anyone know of a 40-pin UART with a FIFO? :) 16c550s are cheap as dirt. And you can stick a 16c850 or whatever the latest incarnation is to a PLCC to DIP adapter. > I've lately been doing the data transfer stuff using STM32F407 > development boards. Chuck really has the right answer here. UART chips aren't going to patch over that. KJ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 16 19:21:16 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:21:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sat, 16 Dec 2017, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > The ones > labelled RT-11 don't actually have RT-11 on them, just some random > files, and these were the ones I had tried to boot from. Yep. Being labelled "RT-11" does not mean that they have RT-11 on them. They could be Compupro disks from the accounting department, containing the bookkeeping/invoices for the RT-11 system. They could be disks from a writer containing a manuscript for an instruction manual for RT-11. They could be transportation department disks relating to Route 11 between Louisiana and New York. They could be Robert Thompson's disk from 2011. Or just disk #11 of his set. Or "Russia Today" Or the IBM "RT PC" Or "Real Time", . . . Long ago, we had an "interesting" series of discussions here, when somebody claimed to have OS/2 on a PDP! They were apparently PDP disks labelled "OS/2". (He also told us that FORTRAN was based on Valtrep (1990s); that his 1990s Sun computer was the first computer used for e-mail; and he asserted that his "copy everything" program could copy alignment disks.) When people "need" a blank disk, and none are handy, they might use ANYTHING. Therefore, even disks with factory labels identifying them as system installation disks don't necessarily have that on them, nor even that they are in the format expected for the machine. We once had a "technician" in the school computer lab reformat several boxes of disks, because the machine that he tried them in couldn't read them, without even realizing that they were a different digk format for a different machine! So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks. From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 16 19:59:50 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 17:59:50 -0800 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/16/2017 05:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks. Ha. I lost a bit of hair when I received a batch of 8" hard-sector disks and tried to make sense of them. What were obviously sector headers didn't line up at all with any of the sector holes. It wasn't until I got to the bottom of the pile that I noticed that one was a soft-sectored disk. To make a long story short, it's possible to set some drives for hard-sectored operation, with sector pulses output to a different pin than index pulses. If one simply ignores the separate sector output, one can use either soft- or hard-sectored floppies in soft-sector mode. I did verify that this is exactly what the customer had done. --Chuck From jsw at ieee.org Sat Dec 16 21:31:57 2017 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 16 Dec 2017 21:31:57 -0600 Subject: RX02 Difficulties In-Reply-To: References: <87wp1xl1mn.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87k1xmomkr.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <10e71e55-8986-8c83-5755-5adc71abbac5@sydex.com> <87d13eo1ru.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <65CEB8C5-711B-4C7F-AB4E-59DC2607FFC2@ieee.org> > On Dec 16, 2017, at 7:59 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 12/16/2017 05:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > >> So, some of us do not trust the labels on disks. > I don?t trust the labels on my floppies. Especially those with with my handwriting. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 05:15:41 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:15:41 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Recently I wrote: > [...] overview of what I have up for sale: The above overview was updated. (You may want to hit refresh, depending on your browser's cache settings.) The deadline has been extended somewhat, as a result of some interest and some parts I can hold onto (in order to 'reserve' also). Can those who I perhaps failed to get back to please remind me what they were interested in? (My apologies also for this.) - MG 2017-12-02 14:20 GMT+01:00 em gee : > Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following? > > It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings. > I took the time to provide some details (that previously may > have been missing) > > I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December > (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off > to the recycler. > > > ---- tape drives and media > (pictures: , > , > , > , > , > ) > -- Ultrium (Linear Tape Open) > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks Ultrium 920 (LTO-3) external > half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination > - Quantum LTO-3 internal half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE > with auto-termination > - Seagate Viper 200 LTO-1 external full-height tape drive SCSI > U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination > - Hewlett-Packard, Quantum, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. > LTO-{1,2,3} data and cleaning tape catridges, many new and > unused, many available (see pictures) > -- Digital Data Storage > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) internal tape drive > SCSI U320 LVD/SE (possibly with auto-termination; not fully > sure, need to check) > - Sony SDT-D11000 DAT40 (DDS-4) external tape drive, SCSI > (LVD?/)SE > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT160 (DDS-6) data and cleaning > tapes, several tapes, nearly all new and unused > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) data and cleaning > tapes, several boxes, 2~3, largely new and unused > - Hewlett-Packard, Compaq, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. > DDS-{1,2,3,4} data and cleaning tape cartridges, various > types, many available (see pictures) > > ---- computer components (multi-platform, cross-architecture) > - Hewlett-Packard-branded S2io/Exar/Neterion 10Gbit (10GBASE- > SR) PCI-X NICs, including 850nm transceivers, supported on > many platforms (including Windows, IRIX and OpenVMS), around > 5 available > - Hewlett-Packard, LSI, etc. PCI/-X adapters, e.g.: SCSI, FC, > FC/SCSI duo (hybrid), etc. HBAs, NICs, IEEE-1394a (FireWire/ > i.Link) adapters and more, various types and (re)brandings > > ---- software > -- operating system > - Hewlett-Packard OpenVMS (I64) Open Source Tools (2010) > CD-ROM, in original sleeve > - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX V5.1B Documentation (2010) > CD-ROM, in original sleeve > - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX NHD-7 (New Hardware Delivery) > kit (2010), in original packaging (unopened), primarily > intended for e.g. HP AlphaStation/AlphaServer DS15/A > - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 (1999) CD-ROM, disc 1 of 2, > in sleeve > - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 & V7.2-1 System Crash Mandatory > Update (1999) CD-ROM, in sleeve > - Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, NL (Dutch), licenses > included, 2 available > - Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2b, NL (Dutch), OEM, only > media (no license) > -- applications > - Frame (later Adobe) FrameMaker for SunOS/Solaris, > advanced typesetting software, boxed with documentation > and installation media > - Sybase Database for OpenVMS (Alpha), in original jewel > case > - Syntax TotalNET Advanced Server for SunOS/Solaris(?), > boxed > - VITec RasterFLEX (v4.0) for SunOS/Solaris, boxed > (pictures: , > , > ) > - Sega DreamKey, internet web browser software(?) for > Sega Dreamcast, in original jewel case > > ---- books (mostly English and some Dutch) > - various (see picture: ), > on computing/ > computers, computer architectures (e.g. MC68000), the > history of IBM, also computer graphics, covering software > like Maya (v2.5), Houdini (v6~8) and LightWave 3D (v5.5~5.6), > etc. > > ---- computer input devices and other peripherals > - Wacom serial (perhaps also ADB and USB, need to check) > digitizer tablets, in various sizes > - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used > > ---- Cardbus adapters > - Sitecom USB 2.0, providing 2 ports > - SIIG IEEE-1394a FireWire > > ---- Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters > - Keyspan Mac Serial Adapter (to USB) > - Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one > includes the original packaging > > ---- serial cables and converters > - DeLock, generic, etc. DB9, DB25 and conversion cables, > including straight-through and 'null-modem' varieties, > fairly large amount available > > ---- SCSI, SAS/S-ATA and FC cabling > - multi-vendor internal SAS to S-ATA cables, several, > including in unopened packages > - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables, > several available > - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI terminators, > mainly LVD/SE (incl. UW and U320) but also HVD, both > active and passive, several available > - multi-vendor LC (LC to LC) fiber-optical cables > (contact me about OM type), several available and in > various lengths > > ---- PCs and components > - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB > in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM > x346 server at the time > - ASUS M8N-E, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 8GB DDR2 RAM and > documents > - ASUS M2N-E SLI, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 4GB DDR2 RAM > and documents > - Cooler Master 600W (AT) PSU > - Cooler Master(?) 460W (AT) PSU > > ---- SGI (MIPS-powered) IRIX systems and components > - SGI Tezro & O3x0 HDD sled/tray (Intel type), with > optional blanking/airflow plastic included, at least 1 > (maybe 2, need to check) > - SGI DMediaPro DM10-compatible IEEE-1394a FireWire > (3.3V) PCI card with cables, SGI DMediaPro DM10 manual, > etc., boxed > - SGI IMPACT (MGRAS) 4MB TRAM module, possibly defective > -- not really interested in selling, but in theory for > sale (depending on the offer, I might be persuaded) > - SGI Indigo? IMPACT/10000, with 195MHz MIPS R10000 CPU, > 1GB RAM, High IMPACT plus 4MB TRAM, IMPACT Video plus > VBOB, Plextor CD-ROM drive, intact bezel, lockbar > included, etc. > - SGI O2, with 400MHz MIPS R12000 CPU, 1GB RAM, digital > A/V (AV2) module, Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, intact bezel, > etc. > > ---- general 19" rack equipment > - general 1U fan (low-noise ventilator) unit, with > temperature monitoring & control > - general rack trays (vented), at least one (possibly > more) > - general rack mounting bars, cable managers and other > accessories > - general mounting fasteners (RM mounting blocks and > screws) > > ---- video games and peripherals > - Nintendo Super Scope for Super NES (Nintendo > Entertainment System), PAL/EUR region, including > cartridge and documentation > > ---- graphics monitors, cables and accessories > - Dell UltraSharp U2412M, 24" IPS LCD monitors, 1~2 > available > - ATEN USB & VGA (HD15) KVMs, with documentation, about > 2~3 available > - SGI 13W3 (HD13W3 to HD13W3) cable, about 2?~3 meters > in length > - generic short DVI-D cables (around ~0.5 meters / > ~1.6 foot), ideal for SGI VBOB plus DM5 with DM2/DM3 > - generic component monitor cables, one with RCA (tulip) > and another with BNC cabling > - generic DVI-D splitters (not sure if I still have > them, I need to check) > > ---- video equipment > - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V20L1D, 22" LCD, full HD, > 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format > broadcast monitor, with lots of built-in I/O (HD > component, HD-SDI, HDCP-capable DVI, composite video, > etc.), with a few dead pixels > - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V1710CG, 17" CRT, full HD, > 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format > broadcast monitor, with various input modules > (including SD-, HD-SDI and HD component, also available > individually, in original boxes) > - Gefen 1080p Scaler for HDMI, boxed, professional-grade > digital video scaler (picture: > ) > - Miranda ASD-271p, professional analog-to-digital A/V > signal converter, including external PSU, ?as-is? > (untested, or not recently tested) > - generic HDMI to 3G/HD-SDI (also SD-SDI capable) bridge > - generic ~20 meter / ~66 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cable > - DeLock ~10 meter / ~33 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cables, > two available and one in the original packaging > - DeLock and generic ~0.5~1 meter / ~1.6 foot, HD/3G/+ > -SDI BNC cables, around 3~5 available > - generic and various other lengths of HD/3G/+-SDI BNC > cables, several available, some in original packaging > - generic 75? BNC terminators for SDI, many available > > ---- photo-/cinematographic equipment > -- cameras > - Sony HDR-FX1000E, HD video camera (3-CMOS), with > optional accessories, like large Sony carrying bag > (pictures: ) > - Blackmagic (Design) Pocket Cinema Camera (BMPCC), RAW > & 10-bit ProRES, full HD video camera, in original box, > plus optional accessories > -- BMPCC accessories: > - BMPCC batteries, multiple of Blackmagic Design and one > of Nikon (original) > - Kamerar QV-1 viewfinder magnifier (loupe) > - ... and more (contact me) > (pictures for all of the above and some of the below: > ) > -- lenses and adapters > - Panasonic Lumix G II 14mm ?/2.5 prime MFT (Micro Four > Thirds) lens > - Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 14-42mm ?/3.5-5.6 Power- > O.I.S. pancake electronic zoom MFT lens > - Panasonic Lumix 45-200mm ?/4-5.6 Mega-O.I.S. zoom > MFT lens > - Metabones Speed Booster Nikon F/G to MFT (focal > reduction) lens mount adapter > - other MFT lens mount adapters (including with focal > reduction), see pictures > - Samyang 16mm T/2.2 VDSLR Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens > - Sigma EX DG 17-50mm ?/2.8 Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens > - KMZ Jupiter-8 50mm ?/2 Leica M39 35mm full-frame lens > - Sigma Art DN 013 60mm ?/2.8 E-mount APS-C lens > - Manfrotto 700RC2 lightweight video monopod/tripod head > - Manfrotto 585-1 ModoSteady 3-in-1, compact stabilizer > rig > > ---- audio equipment > - Music Group/Behringer Ultra-Match SRC-9624, 96KHz > 24-bit audio interface, barely used > > There might be more, but this is it for now. > > Not all is directly related to computers, but most of > it has been used together with them, or can be used > together with them or to document/conserve retro > systems. > > Everything is located in the Netherlands. > > - MG > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 17 05:23:18 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:23:18 -0000 Subject: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent Message-ID: <009201d37729$709cb900$51d62b00$@ntlworld.com> I have a suspicion that this component may be faulty on the input side of my H7826 PSU. A little tester I have does not recognise it, it is possible that the currents it uses are too low for this particular triac, but I am not sure. There are new ones on ebay, but I am not sure if I can trust ebay sellers to have genuine parts. So I would like to identify a suitable replacement. I have found a few suggestions for replacements, but looking at the datasheets many seem to have a lower peak gate power then the BT139. I am not sure what the critical parameters are, so I don't know how to choose a replacement. Can anyone suggest a good replacement for this part? Thanks Rob From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sun Dec 17 05:25:55 2017 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:25:55 +0100 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD Message-ID: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> Hello List, i playing arround with my Vaxstation 4000 60.... This is a System with 40 MB Ram, 1GB Hdd, a VGA Monitor, LK201 Keyboard, VSXXXAA.B03 Mouse, and a external SCSI-CDROm dirve. With OpenVMS installed on it i have the grafical DecWindows System running. Now i have installed NetBSD 7.1 from CD via the RS232 Consoleport. My two problems now are: 1.) It is not posible to switch the console from RS232 to the VGA Monitor and Keyboard. If i switch the S3 switch in down position i can only see the NetBSD Kernel decompression. After that i see nothing on VGA and RS232 console. The System starts up anyway. After some time it is possible to connect via LAN. 2.) Is it posible to run the NetBSD X.Org on that sort of Vaxstation? If yes... Whats to do to get that running? I Think i have to fix my point 1 first. Marco Rauhut From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 05:47:05 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:47:05 +0000 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > 1.) It is not posible to switch the console from RS232 to the VGA > Monitor and Keyboard. If i switch the S3 switch in down position i can > only see the NetBSD Kernel decompression. After that i see nothing on > VGA and RS232 console. The System starts up anyway. After some time it > is possible to connect via LAN. Very few frame buffers are supported in NetBSD - you will need to check the hardware support list. Even if it is supported, you will only be able to use it as a text-console. To put progress into perspective, I think support for hardware assisted smooth scrolling has only just been added. > > 2.) Is it posible to run the NetBSD X.Org on that sort of Vaxstation? If > yes... Whats to do to get that running? I Think i have to fix my point 1 > first. NetBSD includes the libraries to run X applications, but no Xserver, so you can only display graphics over the network, nothing locally. Hope that helps. I haven't played about with it for about a year so I might have remembered some things wrong. I'm sure someone will correct me if that's the case :) Thanks, Aaron. From marco at familie-rauhut.eu Sun Dec 17 06:09:37 2017 From: marco at familie-rauhut.eu (Marco Rauhut) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:09:37 +0100 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Thanks for your quick answer! Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( Marco Am 17.12.2017 um 12:47 schrieb Aaron Jackson: >> 1.) It is not posible to switch the console from RS232 to the VGA >> Monitor and Keyboard. If i switch the S3 switch in down position i can >> only see the NetBSD Kernel decompression. After that i see nothing on >> VGA and RS232 console. The System starts up anyway. After some time it >> is possible to connect via LAN. > Very few frame buffers are supported in NetBSD - you will need to check > the hardware support list. Even if it is supported, you will only be > able to use it as a text-console. To put progress into perspective, I > think support for hardware assisted smooth scrolling has only just been > added. > >> 2.) Is it posible to run the NetBSD X.Org on that sort of Vaxstation? If >> yes... Whats to do to get that running? I Think i have to fix my point 1 >> first. > NetBSD includes the libraries to run X applications, but no Xserver, so > you can only display graphics over the network, nothing locally. > > Hope that helps. I haven't played about with it for about a year so I > might have remembered some things wrong. I'm sure someone will correct > me if that's the case :) > > Thanks, > Aaron. From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Sun Dec 17 06:20:22 2017 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:20:22 +0000 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: Don't forget however that using X remotely works fine. On 17 December 2017 at 12:09, Marco Rauhut via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for your quick answer! > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > Marco > > > > Am 17.12.2017 um 12:47 schrieb Aaron Jackson: > >> 1.) It is not posible to switch the console from RS232 to the VGA >>> Monitor and Keyboard. If i switch the S3 switch in down position i can >>> only see the NetBSD Kernel decompression. After that i see nothing on >>> VGA and RS232 console. The System starts up anyway. After some time it >>> is possible to connect via LAN. >>> >> Very few frame buffers are supported in NetBSD - you will need to check >> the hardware support list. Even if it is supported, you will only be >> able to use it as a text-console. To put progress into perspective, I >> think support for hardware assisted smooth scrolling has only just been >> added. >> >> 2.) Is it posible to run the NetBSD X.Org on that sort of Vaxstation? If >>> yes... Whats to do to get that running? I Think i have to fix my point 1 >>> first. >>> >> NetBSD includes the libraries to run X applications, but no Xserver, so >> you can only display graphics over the network, nothing locally. >> >> Hope that helps. I haven't played about with it for about a year so I >> might have remembered some things wrong. I'm sure someone will correct >> me if that's the case :) >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. >> > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Dec 17 07:24:54 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:24:54 +0000 (WET) Subject: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent In-Reply-To: <009201d37729$709cb900$51d62b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01QMR51QBBO4002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a suspicion that this component may be faulty on the input side of my > H7826 PSU. A little tester I have does not recognise it, it is possible that > the currents it uses are too low for this particular triac, but I am not > sure. > What is the function of this triac in your power supply? I have come across a triac which is used to switch between 115V and 230V input in the PSU of a DEC 3000/300. My triac went short circuit which caused some release of magic smoke when the PSU was used on 230V. I also had difficulty finding a replacement for it so I ended up leaving it out. The PSU worked fine on 230V only without it once I replaced the other damaged components. If your triac has a different function, ignore the above. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 08:23:27 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 09:23:27 -0500 Subject: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent In-Reply-To: <01QMR51QBBO4002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01QMR51QBBO4002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 12/17/2017 08:24 AM, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: >> I have a suspicion that this component may be faulty on the input side of my >> H7826 PSU. A little tester I have does not recognise it, it is possible that >> the currents it uses are too low for this particular triac, but I am not >> sure. >> > What is the function of this triac in your power supply? > > I have come across a triac which is used to switch between 115V and 230V input > in the PSU of a DEC 3000/300. My triac went short circuit which caused some > release of magic smoke when the PSU was used on 230V. I also had difficulty > finding a replacement for it so I ended up leaving it out. The PSU worked > fine on 230V only without it once I replaced the other damaged components. > > If your triac has a different function, ignore the above. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > OUTPUT CROWBAR: The common use is to create a hard short circuit across the output if the output voltage exceeds a safe limit.? The logic is that a power supply is cheap compared to the rest of the computer.? The typical output where this is done is the 5V rail. The tester likely cannot test a triac its not a simple transistor or diode.? They are easy to test a light bulb (12V) and a DC source. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 17 10:12:40 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:12:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: RX02 Difficulties Message-ID: <20171217161240.654CA18C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > My copy of of the V7 standalone stuff (which I got from the VTServer > directory) didn't include an RX driver. Where'd you manage to find one? So, thanks to a tip (thanks, Jerry! :-), the source has been found: https://github.com/chapmajs/vtserver/tree/master/pdpvtstand http://www.shiresoft.com/pdp-11/software/ For some reason, the TUHS Archive doesn't contain the later versions of VTServer: http://www.tuhs.org/Archive/Tools/Tapes/Vtserver/ and in those (unlike the earlier versions), the standalone source is in the same archive file as VTServer itself. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 17 10:24:20 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:24:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: RL02 to PC image Message-ID: <20171217162420.9AD8818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jonathan (Systems Glitch) > the vtserver `rx` driver has a bug in it anyway where it continues > reading past the end of the media I'll be working with the RX driver for the standalone stuff soon on a project of my own, I'll look into this then. BTW, 'VTserver' refers to three pieces of software: - The actual server, which runs under Unix on the 'server' machine - A small bootstrap which downloads the main standalone program from the server - A driver for the standalone software which adds a device which can talk to the server over a serial line, as one of the devices for the standalone The standalone software is V7 code that existed before VTServer did, more on it here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/Installing_UNIX_Seventh_Edition and the RX driver is actually for that. Noel From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 11:04:12 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:04:12 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness Message-ID: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Now that I have my RX02 drive working I have started to take a look at the RL02 drives again. I hooked a scope up to the sector transducer and sector timing test points, and they look nicely aligned. So I moved on. Then I hooked up the scope to the TP1, TP2 and the sector timing TP and compared it to the output in the RL02 tech manual. S1 was fine but S2 was offset in the wrong direction (probably need to see page 3-8 in the manual to understand). I had a look at where the heads are connected to at up was connected to down and down was connected to up. Without understanding the consequences I switched these and loaded a pack. Unfortunately I heard a horrible sound and I now have a thin black ring on the bottom side of my platter, which I am very upset about. :( I unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. Why would the heads be installed this way? and why did it destroy my platter when they are connected "correctly"? Does anyone understand what might have happened? Thanks, and sorry for destroying a pack :( Aaron. From allisonportable at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 11:28:45 2017 From: allisonportable at gmail.com (allison) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 12:28:45 -0500 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On 12/17/2017 12:04 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Now that I have my RX02 drive working I have started to take a look at > the RL02 drives again. I hooked a scope up to the sector transducer and > sector timing test points, and they look nicely aligned. So I moved on. > > Then I hooked up the scope to the TP1, TP2 and the sector timing TP and > compared it to the output in the RL02 tech manual. S1 was fine but S2 > was offset in the wrong direction (probably need to see page 3-8 in the > manual to understand). I had a look at where the heads are connected to > at up was connected to down and down was connected to up. > > Without understanding the consequences I switched these and loaded a > pack. Unfortunately I heard a horrible sound and I now have a thin black > ring on the bottom side of my platter, which I am very upset about. :( I > unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. One turn thats all it takes. > Why would the heads be installed this way? Error, accident. > and why did it destroy my > platter when they are connected "correctly"? Maybe the control finally got a signal and decided to load them. > Does anyone understand what might have happened? Simple the heads are designed to fly and have a shape suited for that. Flip them over and they are wrong shape, they don't fly, they dig in.... oops! Make sure the correct heads are in there correctly. Allison From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 11:33:02 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:33:02 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87zi6hs1ip.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> Does anyone understand what might have happened? > Simple the heads are designed to fly and have a shape suited for that. > Flip them over and they are wrong shape, they don't fly, they dig in.... > oops! Yes I understand that, but why didn't it damage my platter when they were connected (electrically) the to the wrong sockets on the R/W module? As in, down was plugged into the up header pins and up into the down header pins. Thanks, Aaron. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 11:37:23 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:37:23 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > Now that I have my RX02 drive working I have started to take a look at > the RL02 drives again. I hooked a scope up to the sector transducer and > sector timing test points, and they look nicely aligned. So I moved on. > > Then I hooked up the scope to the TP1, TP2 and the sector timing TP and > compared it to the output in the RL02 tech manual. S1 was fine but S2 > was offset in the wrong direction (probably need to see page 3-8 in the > manual to understand). I had a look at where the heads are connected to > at up was connected to down and down was connected to up. I wonder if you fell into the 'trap for the unwary' here. The heads are named by the direction they face. So the upper head, nearest the top of the drive, is the 'down' had as it faces down onto the platter. Similarly the lower head is the 'up' head. Yes, it confused me at first, > > Without understanding the consequences I switched these and loaded a > pack. Unfortunately I heard a horrible sound and I now have a thin black > ring on the bottom side of my platter, which I am very upset about. :( I > unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. > > Why would the heads be installed this way? and why did it destroy my > platter when they are connected "correctly"? > > Does anyone understand what might have happened? > > Thanks, and sorry for destroying a pack :( My first worry is that you have damaged the heads as well as the pack. I am not sure why this caused a headcrash. It shouldn't have done. -tony From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 11:46:20 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:46:20 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87y3m1s0wj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 5:04 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk > wrote: >> Now that I have my RX02 drive working I have started to take a look at >> the RL02 drives again. I hooked a scope up to the sector transducer and >> sector timing test points, and they look nicely aligned. So I moved on. >> >> Then I hooked up the scope to the TP1, TP2 and the sector timing TP and >> compared it to the output in the RL02 tech manual. S1 was fine but S2 >> was offset in the wrong direction (probably need to see page 3-8 in the >> manual to understand). I had a look at where the heads are connected to >> at up was connected to down and down was connected to up. > > I wonder if you fell into the 'trap for the unwary' here. The heads are named by > the direction they face. So the upper head, nearest the top of the drive, is > the 'down' had as it faces down onto the platter. Similarly the lower > head is the > 'up' head. Yes, it confused me at first, > I'm not sure, because the labels on the female connector says up or down, as does the circuit board. So I connected them so up->up and down->down, which resulted in this crash. So maybe the person who used it before me fell into the trap you mention, failed to get it to work, and then ended up with me in a none-working state? >> >> Without understanding the consequences I switched these and loaded a >> pack. Unfortunately I heard a horrible sound and I now have a thin black >> ring on the bottom side of my platter, which I am very upset about. :( I >> unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. >> >> Why would the heads be installed this way? and why did it destroy my >> platter when they are connected "correctly"? >> >> Does anyone understand what might have happened? >> >> Thanks, and sorry for destroying a pack :( > > My first worry is that you have damaged the heads as well as the pack. Possibly, although I hope not. The head looks okay but perhaps the damage is invisible. > > I am not sure why this caused a headcrash. It shouldn't have done. > > -tony I have a second drive which I am willing to use for parts, but only if I am certain it won't damage something else. Thanks, Aaron. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 11:55:34 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 17:55:34 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <87y3m1s0wj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87y3m1s0wj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <87wp1ls0h5.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> I wonder if you fell into the 'trap for the unwary' here. The heads are named by >> the direction they face. So the upper head, nearest the top of the drive, is >> the 'down' had as it faces down onto the platter. Similarly the lower >> head is the >> 'up' head. Yes, it confused me at first, >> > > I'm not sure, because the labels on the female connector says up or > down, as does the circuit board. So I connected them so up->up and > down->down, which resulted in this crash. So maybe the person who used > it before me fell into the trap you mention, failed to get it to work, > and then ended up with me in a none-working state? I just checked and it looks like they are in correctly. The head for the top-side of the platter is labelled down, and the lower head is facing up. The only thing I changed is connecting up->up and down->down. So, I'm not sure. I cleaned the packs well a while back - I'm just hoping there wasn't something left over which caused the crash. Thanks, Aaron. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 12:06:46 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:06:46 -0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <87wp1ls0h5.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87y3m1s0wj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wp1ls0h5.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <045501d37761$cd9f2b50$68dd81f0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron > Jackson via cctalk > Sent: 17 December 2017 17:56 > To: Aaron Jackson ; General Discussion: On-Topic > and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: RL02 weirdness > > >> I wonder if you fell into the 'trap for the unwary' here. The heads > >> are named by the direction they face. So the upper head, nearest the > >> top of the drive, is the 'down' had as it faces down onto the > >> platter. Similarly the lower head is the 'up' head. Yes, it confused > >> me at first, > >> > > > > I'm not sure, because the labels on the female connector says up or > > down, as does the circuit board. So I connected them so up->up and > > down->down, which resulted in this crash. So maybe the person who used > > it before me fell into the trap you mention, failed to get it to work, > > and then ended up with me in a none-working state? > > I just checked and it looks like they are in correctly. The head for the top-side > of the platter is labelled down, and the lower head is facing up. The only > thing I changed is connecting up->up and down->down. > > So, I'm not sure. I cleaned the packs well a while back - I'm just hoping there > wasn't something left over which caused the crash. > > Thanks, > Aaron. If these are the ones you got from may I may have put the leads back the wrong way round. :-( I suspect they have been bounced about so much in my car they may be out of alignment. I would see about checking the alignment before doing anything else... Dave From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 12:13:19 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 18:13:19 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <045501d37761$cd9f2b50$68dd81f0$@gmail.com> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87y3m1s0wj.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <87wp1ls0h5.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <045501d37761$cd9f2b50$68dd81f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <87vah5rznk.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Aaron >> Jackson via cctalk >> Sent: 17 December 2017 17:56 >> To: Aaron Jackson ; General Discussion: On-Topic >> and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: RL02 weirdness >> >> >> I wonder if you fell into the 'trap for the unwary' here. The heads >> >> are named by the direction they face. So the upper head, nearest the >> >> top of the drive, is the 'down' had as it faces down onto the >> >> platter. Similarly the lower head is the 'up' head. Yes, it confused >> >> me at first, >> >> >> > >> > I'm not sure, because the labels on the female connector says up or >> > down, as does the circuit board. So I connected them so up->up and >> > down->down, which resulted in this crash. So maybe the person who used >> > it before me fell into the trap you mention, failed to get it to work, >> > and then ended up with me in a none-working state? >> >> I just checked and it looks like they are in correctly. The head for the > top-side >> of the platter is labelled down, and the lower head is facing up. The only >> thing I changed is connecting up->up and down->down. >> >> So, I'm not sure. I cleaned the packs well a while back - I'm just hoping > there >> wasn't something left over which caused the crash. >> >> Thanks, >> Aaron. > > If these are the ones you got from may I may have put the leads back the > wrong way round. :-( > I suspect they have been bounced about so much in my car they may be out of > alignment. > I would see about checking the alignment before doing anything else... > > Dave Hi Dave, They are the ones from you but it's odd how the lower head didn't crash the way you had it connected :) I will study the manual a bit more... Thanks, Aaron. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 17 13:07:34 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:07:34 -0000 Subject: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent In-Reply-To: <01QMR51QBBO4002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> References: <009201d37729$709cb900$51d62b00$@ntlworld.com> <01QMR51QBBO4002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <00b301d3776a$4c50d180$e4f27480$@ntlworld.com> Thanks Peter, Now that you mention it, I have heard that these triacs get used in the auto voltage detection. I was about to reverse engineer the schematic and that is now my next step. I would still like to identify possible replacements though in case I ever need spares for this part. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan via cctalk > Sent: 17 December 2017 13:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent > > > > > I have a suspicion that this component may be faulty on the input side > > of my > > H7826 PSU. A little tester I have does not recognise it, it is > > possible that the currents it uses are too low for this particular > > triac, but I am not sure. > > > > What is the function of this triac in your power supply? > > I have come across a triac which is used to switch between 115V and 230V > input in the PSU of a DEC 3000/300. My triac went short circuit which caused > some release of magic smoke when the PSU was used on 230V. I also had > difficulty finding a replacement for it so I ended up leaving it out. The PSU > worked fine on 230V only without it once I replaced the other damaged > components. > > If your triac has a different function, ignore the above. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. From jcwelch at hal-pc.org Sun Dec 17 11:31:48 2017 From: jcwelch at hal-pc.org (John Welch) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:31:48 -0600 Subject: Help with RSX/PDP11 Message-ID: It is time to ask for help.? I have forgotton more than I ever knew about using RSX.? Anyway, using the wonderful PDP11GUI I have imaged an RL02 pack to my PC.? I have downloaded a running RSX11m image. I want to look at my imaged disk to see how it looks. Using SIMH I did the following commands: ============================================ PDP-11 simulator V3.8-2 (JH stdio telnet) sim> set cpu 11/93, 4M Disabling CR Disabling RK Disabling HK Disabling TM sim> set cpu idle sim> set rq0 rd54 sim> attach rq0 rsx11mplus_4_6_bl87.dsk sim> set rl0 rl02 sim> attach rl0 RSX11-bu.rl02 sim> b rl0 SAV -- SOFTWARE CONFIGURED FOR ENABLE HARDWARE WHICH DOES NOT RESPOND.? HALTED. HALT instruction, PC: 126272 (BR 126270) sim> ============================================ So then I try: ============================================ sim> b rq0 RSX-11M-PLUS V4.6? BL87?? 2044.KW? System:"RSXMPL" >RED DU:=SY: >RED DU:=LB: >RED DU:=SP: >MOU DU0:"RSX11MPBL87" >@DU:[1,2]STARTUP >;????????????????????? PLEASE NOTE > .... >QUE BAP0:/AS:BATCH >@ > =============================================== I think that I should be something like use pip to do something like : pip [*,*]* /li or something, but I got into trouble real quick. Do I need to mount the RL02 for the system to see it? If I want to list the files on the RL02 image what command would I use? Any help appreciated. Sincerely, John Welch From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Dec 17 13:32:51 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 11:32:51 -0800 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Message-ID: <27d6cb04-dfc4-d888-4b56-73834d49d341@bitsavers.org> On 12/17/17 9:04 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: > I unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. > I KNOW the damage is done. NEVER attempt to load a pack if you haven't inspected it AND the heads first. Was this combination ever known to work? You now need to throw that pack out, and thoroughly inspect and clean the heads and any pack to attempt to use in the future. You also need to inspect the filter, purge the air filtration system if you haven't done that already along with cleaning the filtered air path in the drive and run the spindle for a while before attempting to load the heads again. > Why would the heads be installed this way? and why did it destroy my > platter when they are connected "correctly"? The only thing that comes to mind is the servo system is going to be extremely confused with the embedded servo information coming in the reverse direction. From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Sun Dec 17 13:46:32 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 19:46:32 +0000 Subject: RL02 weirdness In-Reply-To: <27d6cb04-dfc4-d888-4b56-73834d49d341@bitsavers.org> References: <871sjtthf7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <27d6cb04-dfc4-d888-4b56-73834d49d341@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <87tvwprvc7.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> > On 12/17/17 9:04 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk wrote: >> I unloaded very quickly but I think the damage is done. >> > > I KNOW the damage is done. > > NEVER attempt to load a pack if you haven't inspected it AND the heads > first. The pack was cleaned with lint-free kimwipes and 99.9% isopropyl alcohol not too long ago. > Was this combination ever known to work? The heads had loaded many times (with this pack) without crashing before I connected the heads to the correct headers on the R/W module (i.e. up->up and down->down). > You now need to throw that pack out, and thoroughly inspect and clean the heads > and any pack to attempt to use in the future. > > You also need to inspect the filter, purge the air filtration system if you haven't done that already > along with cleaning the filtered air path in the drive > and run the spindle for a while before attempting to load the heads again. I will check these things, thanks. The absolute filter is basically brand new by the looks of it. >> Why would the heads be installed this way? and why did it destroy my >> platter when they are connected "correctly"? > > The only thing that comes to mind is the servo system is going to be extremely > confused with the embedded servo information coming in the reverse direction. It seems to me though that the servo information was wrong before. Please see these: http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/rl02/scope.jpg http://aaronsplace.co.uk/private/pics/rl02/manual.png This was from TP2 on the R/W module. S2 is wrong, which is why I noticed that up was connected to down and down to up. Thanks, Aaron. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Dec 17 15:05:51 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 13:05:51 -0800 Subject: BT139-600G Triac Equivalent In-Reply-To: <009201d37729$709cb900$51d62b00$@ntlworld.com> References: <009201d37729$709cb900$51d62b00$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Dec-17, at 3:23 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I have a suspicion that this component may be faulty on the input side of my > H7826 PSU. A little tester I have does not recognise it, it is possible that > the currents it uses are too low for this particular triac, but I am not > sure. > > There are new ones on ebay, but I am not sure if I can trust ebay sellers to > have genuine parts. So I would like to identify a suitable replacement. I > have found a few suggestions for replacements, but looking at the datasheets > many seem to have a lower peak gate power then the BT139. I am not sure what > the critical parameters are, so I don't know how to choose a replacement. > > Can anyone suggest a good replacement for this part? Any parameter can be critical, depending on how the device is being used. The parameters primarily or commonly of issue with triacs are the peak blocking voltage and the RMS conducting current. The gate power is going to be a function of the trigger circuitry, so one isn't going to know for sure without analysing the trigger circuit design. With that said, gate circuits are generally designed for fairly low-level operation and not to be using a lot of power. If this triac is on the input side and just used as a switch for input voltage selection, the requirements are probably pretty generic. The Q-thousand series of triacs are (were?) pretty common: https://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/472/Q2003L-pdf.php Try comparing with the Q6015L5 (pdf.32-33). From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sun Dec 17 17:44:47 2017 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (em gee) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 00:44:47 +0100 Subject: offering: computer, A/V and optical equipment, plus books and more, to be cleared out around mid-December In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I wrote: > Lately I've added more information, including part numbers and pictures here and there. Now I've also listed all of the (e.g.) PCI/-X adapters I could find, some of which are perhaps of use to people running OpenVMS, Tru64 UNIX, IRIX and other platforms. - MG 2017-12-02 14:20 GMT+01:00 em gee : > Is anyone perhaps interested in any of the following? > > It's essentially the remainder of some of my earlier offerings. > I took the time to provide some details (that previously may > have been missing) > > I intend to clear out the majority of it by mid-December > (around the 15th), after that it will likely be hauled off > to the recycler. > > > ---- tape drives and media > (pictures: , > , > , > , > , > ) > -- Ultrium (Linear Tape Open) > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks Ultrium 920 (LTO-3) external > half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination > - Quantum LTO-3 internal half-height tape drive SCSI U320 LVD/SE > with auto-termination > - Seagate Viper 200 LTO-1 external full-height tape drive SCSI > U320 LVD/SE with auto-termination > - Hewlett-Packard, Quantum, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. > LTO-{1,2,3} data and cleaning tape catridges, many new and > unused, many available (see pictures) > -- Digital Data Storage > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) internal tape drive > SCSI U320 LVD/SE (possibly with auto-termination; not fully > sure, need to check) > - Sony SDT-D11000 DAT40 (DDS-4) external tape drive, SCSI > (LVD?/)SE > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT160 (DDS-6) data and cleaning > tapes, several tapes, nearly all new and unused > - Hewlett-Packard StorageWorks DAT72 (DDS-5) data and cleaning > tapes, several boxes, 2~3, largely new and unused > - Hewlett-Packard, Compaq, Maxell, Fujifilm, Sony, etc. > DDS-{1,2,3,4} data and cleaning tape cartridges, various > types, many available (see pictures) > > ---- computer components (multi-platform, cross-architecture) > - Hewlett-Packard-branded S2io/Exar/Neterion 10Gbit (10GBASE- > SR) PCI-X NICs, including 850nm transceivers, supported on > many platforms (including Windows, IRIX and OpenVMS), around > 5 available > - Hewlett-Packard, LSI, etc. PCI/-X adapters, e.g.: SCSI, FC, > FC/SCSI duo (hybrid), etc. HBAs, NICs, IEEE-1394a (FireWire/ > i.Link) adapters and more, various types and (re)brandings > > ---- software > -- operating system > - Hewlett-Packard OpenVMS (I64) Open Source Tools (2010) > CD-ROM, in original sleeve > - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX V5.1B Documentation (2010) > CD-ROM, in original sleeve > - Hewlett-Packard Tru64 UNIX NHD-7 (New Hardware Delivery) > kit (2010), in original packaging (unopened), primarily > intended for e.g. HP AlphaStation/AlphaServer DS15/A > - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 (1999) CD-ROM, disc 1 of 2, > in sleeve > - Compaq OpenVMS Alpha V7.2 & V7.2-1 System Crash Mandatory > Update (1999) CD-ROM, in sleeve > - Microsoft Windows 7 Home Premium, NL (Dutch), licenses > included, 2 available > - Microsoft Windows XP Pro SP2b, NL (Dutch), OEM, only > media (no license) > -- applications > - Frame (later Adobe) FrameMaker for SunOS/Solaris, > advanced typesetting software, boxed with documentation > and installation media > - Sybase Database for OpenVMS (Alpha), in original jewel > case > - Syntax TotalNET Advanced Server for SunOS/Solaris(?), > boxed > - VITec RasterFLEX (v4.0) for SunOS/Solaris, boxed > (pictures: , > , > ) > - Sega DreamKey, internet web browser software(?) for > Sega Dreamcast, in original jewel case > > ---- books (mostly English and some Dutch) > - various (see picture: ), > on computing/ > computers, computer architectures (e.g. MC68000), the > history of IBM, also computer graphics, covering software > like Maya (v2.5), Houdini (v6~8) and LightWave 3D (v5.5~5.6), > etc. > > ---- computer input devices and other peripherals > - Wacom serial (perhaps also ADB and USB, need to check) > digitizer tablets, in various sizes > - Logitech PS/2 trackball, barely used > > ---- Cardbus adapters > - Sitecom USB 2.0, providing 2 ports > - SIIG IEEE-1394a FireWire > > ---- Apple Macintosh serial & ADB adapters > - Keyspan Mac Serial Adapter (to USB) > - Griffin iMate ADB to USB adapters, 2 available, one > includes the original packaging > > ---- serial cables and converters > - DeLock, generic, etc. DB9, DB25 and conversion cables, > including straight-through and 'null-modem' varieties, > fairly large amount available > > ---- SCSI, SAS/S-ATA and FC cabling > - multi-vendor internal SAS to S-ATA cables, several, > including in unopened packages > - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI cables, > several available > - multi-vendor internal and external SCSI terminators, > mainly LVD/SE (incl. UW and U320) but also HVD, both > active and passive, several available > - multi-vendor LC (LC to LC) fiber-optical cables > (contact me about OM type), several available and in > various lengths > > ---- PCs and components > - IBM-branded DDR2 RAM R-DIMMs (as kits), I believe 8GB > in total (I need to check), removed from a working IBM > x346 server at the time > - ASUS M8N-E, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 8GB DDR2 RAM and > documents > - ASUS M2N-E SLI, with AMD Athlon64 X2 CPU, 4GB DDR2 RAM > and documents > - Cooler Master 600W (AT) PSU > - Cooler Master(?) 460W (AT) PSU > > ---- SGI (MIPS-powered) IRIX systems and components > - SGI Tezro & O3x0 HDD sled/tray (Intel type), with > optional blanking/airflow plastic included, at least 1 > (maybe 2, need to check) > - SGI DMediaPro DM10-compatible IEEE-1394a FireWire > (3.3V) PCI card with cables, SGI DMediaPro DM10 manual, > etc., boxed > - SGI IMPACT (MGRAS) 4MB TRAM module, possibly defective > -- not really interested in selling, but in theory for > sale (depending on the offer, I might be persuaded) > - SGI Indigo? IMPACT/10000, with 195MHz MIPS R10000 CPU, > 1GB RAM, High IMPACT plus 4MB TRAM, IMPACT Video plus > VBOB, Plextor CD-ROM drive, intact bezel, lockbar > included, etc. > - SGI O2, with 400MHz MIPS R12000 CPU, 1GB RAM, digital > A/V (AV2) module, Toshiba DVD-ROM drive, intact bezel, > etc. > > ---- general 19" rack equipment > - general 1U fan (low-noise ventilator) unit, with > temperature monitoring & control > - general rack trays (vented), at least one (possibly > more) > - general rack mounting bars, cable managers and other > accessories > - general mounting fasteners (RM mounting blocks and > screws) > > ---- video games and peripherals > - Nintendo Super Scope for Super NES (Nintendo > Entertainment System), PAL/EUR region, including > cartridge and documentation > > ---- graphics monitors, cables and accessories > - Dell UltraSharp U2412M, 24" IPS LCD monitors, 1~2 > available > - ATEN USB & VGA (HD15) KVMs, with documentation, about > 2~3 available > - SGI 13W3 (HD13W3 to HD13W3) cable, about 2?~3 meters > in length > - generic short DVI-D cables (around ~0.5 meters / > ~1.6 foot), ideal for SGI VBOB plus DM5 with DM2/DM3 > - generic component monitor cables, one with RCA (tulip) > and another with BNC cabling > - generic DVI-D splitters (not sure if I still have > them, I need to check) > > ---- video equipment > - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V20L1D, 22" LCD, full HD, > 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format > broadcast monitor, with lots of built-in I/O (HD > component, HD-SDI, HDCP-capable DVI, composite video, > etc.), with a few dead pixels > - JVC DTV Component Multi DT-V1710CG, 17" CRT, full HD, > 10-bit (Deep Color), professional multi-format > broadcast monitor, with various input modules > (including SD-, HD-SDI and HD component, also available > individually, in original boxes) > - Gefen 1080p Scaler for HDMI, boxed, professional-grade > digital video scaler (picture: > ) > - Miranda ASD-271p, professional analog-to-digital A/V > signal converter, including external PSU, ?as-is? > (untested, or not recently tested) > - generic HDMI to 3G/HD-SDI (also SD-SDI capable) bridge > - generic ~20 meter / ~66 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cable > - DeLock ~10 meter / ~33 feet, HD/3G/+-SDI BNC cables, > two available and one in the original packaging > - DeLock and generic ~0.5~1 meter / ~1.6 foot, HD/3G/+ > -SDI BNC cables, around 3~5 available > - generic and various other lengths of HD/3G/+-SDI BNC > cables, several available, some in original packaging > - generic 75? BNC terminators for SDI, many available > > ---- photo-/cinematographic equipment > -- cameras > - Sony HDR-FX1000E, HD video camera (3-CMOS), with > optional accessories, like large Sony carrying bag > (pictures: ) > - Blackmagic (Design) Pocket Cinema Camera (BMPCC), RAW > & 10-bit ProRES, full HD video camera, in original box, > plus optional accessories > -- BMPCC accessories: > - BMPCC batteries, multiple of Blackmagic Design and one > of Nikon (original) > - Kamerar QV-1 viewfinder magnifier (loupe) > - ... and more (contact me) > (pictures for all of the above and some of the below: > ) > -- lenses and adapters > - Panasonic Lumix G II 14mm ?/2.5 prime MFT (Micro Four > Thirds) lens > - Panasonic Lumix G X Vario 14-42mm ?/3.5-5.6 Power- > O.I.S. pancake electronic zoom MFT lens > - Panasonic Lumix 45-200mm ?/4-5.6 Mega-O.I.S. zoom > MFT lens > - Metabones Speed Booster Nikon F/G to MFT (focal > reduction) lens mount adapter > - other MFT lens mount adapters (including with focal > reduction), see pictures > - Samyang 16mm T/2.2 VDSLR Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens > - Sigma EX DG 17-50mm ?/2.8 Nikon F mount DX/APS-C lens > - KMZ Jupiter-8 50mm ?/2 Leica M39 35mm full-frame lens > - Sigma Art DN 013 60mm ?/2.8 E-mount APS-C lens > - Manfrotto 700RC2 lightweight video monopod/tripod head > - Manfrotto 585-1 ModoSteady 3-in-1, compact stabilizer > rig > > ---- audio equipment > - Music Group/Behringer Ultra-Match SRC-9624, 96KHz > 24-bit audio interface, barely used > > There might be more, but this is it for now. > > Not all is directly related to computers, but most of > it has been used together with them, or can be used > together with them or to document/conserve retro > systems. > > Everything is located in the Netherlands. > > - MG > > From ggs at shiresoft.com Sun Dec 17 18:44:14 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:44:14 -0800 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: <20171216214839.C052F18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171216214839.C052F18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4D8D713B-80C5-45A1-9300-BE3617CCF62C@shiresoft.com> To let folks now, I?ve acquired the drives and am currently making arrangement for one of the local collectors to pick them up if I?m unable to and store them until I?m able to get them to my place. So they?ve been saved and I?m looking forward to being able to attach them to my 4331. TTFN - Guy > On Dec 16, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> I *really* want them and I'm within an hour (usually) of where they >> are. The problem is that right now I'm on a business trip until the end >> of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31. > > Why don't you reach out to the person and tell them you _really_ want them, > maybe they'll be able to let it go until you get back? > > Or is there someone in the Sacramanto area who can pick them up and hold them > until Guy can get them? I would offer to, but I'm on the wrong coast.... :-( > > Noel From t.gardner at computer.org Sun Dec 17 18:51:40 2017 From: t.gardner at computer.org (Tom Gardner) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 16:51:40 -0800 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: References: <9b418b691ce8aa66c5caa61cb5ea97cd.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <643182143.9255326.1513339486846@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <004e01d3779a$5e7b1570$1b714050$@computer.org> AFAIK these are rebadged Japanese (probably NPL) controller and drives compatible with the IBM 3370 series. The 3693-2 is a controller bundled with two drives while the 3690-2 is just two drives, other than skins just like the two in the 3693. They are FBA as opposed to CKD They likely connected to integrated attachments on low end IBM systems and director class control units on the IBM mainframes. I'm pretty sure Memorex never did a 3390 class subsystem Tom -----Original Message----- From: Guy Sotomayor Jr [mailto:ggs at shiresoft.com] Sent: Saturday, December 16, 2017 11:29 AM To: P Gebhardt; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE > On Dec 15, 2017, at 4:04 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: > > > > >> eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE >> >> No connection to the seller, but they mention it will be scrapped if no takers. $150 Buy it now. >> https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/MEMOREX-3693-2-3690-2-Disc-Drive-Mainframe-IBM-3370-2-VINTAGE/272983151498 >> or eBay item number: 272983151498 >> >> Steve. > I saw that one today, too! If it wouldn't be across the great pond, then I would try to save these drives from being scrapped.It would be a real shame if nobody could take them. This Memorex equipment is very rare to come across. > I *really* want them and I?m within an hour (usually) of where they are. The problem is that right now I?m on a business trip until the end of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31. So I can?t get them unless a miracle happens. TTFN - Guy From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 17 22:04:25 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 20:04:25 -0800 Subject: IBM 3480 DEC TKZ60 inquiry Message-ID: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> Hi Folks, We've got a Canadian customer with what appears to be an IBM 3480 cartridge that he'd like to get the data from. We don't get nearly enough request for these IBM carts to make owning a unit a viable proposition. I understand that the 3480 format was supported by a wide range of vendors, including DEC with the TKZ60/TKZ61. Anyone having one of these drive want to make some easy money? FWIW, the customer thinks that it's a lot older than it really is--he thinks this dates to the 1970s and the S/360, so some gentle advice may also be required. If you're interested, drop me a private email and I'll hook you up. Cheers, Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 17 23:52:15 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 17 Dec 2017 23:52:15 -0600 Subject: IBM 3480 DEC TKZ60 inquiry In-Reply-To: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> References: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> Message-ID: <5A37578F.5090900@pico-systems.com> On 12/17/2017 10:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Hi Folks, > > We've got a Canadian customer with what appears to be an IBM 3480 > cartridge that he'd like to get the data from. We don't get nearly > enough request for these IBM carts to make owning a unit a viable > proposition. > > I understand that the 3480 format was supported by a wide range of > vendors, including DEC with the TKZ60/TKZ61. > > Anyone having one of these drive want to make some easy money? > > FWIW, the customer thinks that it's a lot older than it really is--he > thinks this dates to the 1970s and the S/360, so some gentle advice may > also be required. > > There were several DIFFERENT formats used with these standard tape cartridges. I have some old CDC Patriot tape drives that did a serpentine single track at a time format on a 3480-compatible tape. I don't think any DEC drive supported the 18-tracks-wide IBM 3480 format. I think DEC's drives were also serpentine. If they are really from an IBM compatible system (really too late for 360, most likely 370 systems) then I think only an IBM-compatible drive would read them. Wikipedia says the 3480 was introduced in 1984. Jon From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 18 02:06:36 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 08:06:36 -0000 Subject: Odd Connections to Rectifier? Message-ID: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> I am reverse engineering the schematic for the input stage of my H7862 PSU. I have come across a KBU6J bridge rectifier which seems to be connected only to the two middle pins, which are the AC inputs. I can't see any other connections. Before I desolder it to verify there are no connections I can't see, does this make any sense? Thanks Rob From bhilpert at shaw.ca Mon Dec 18 03:07:28 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 01:07:28 -0800 Subject: Odd Connections to Rectifier? In-Reply-To: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <85498796-068A-4343-AF5A-32D4C2F937E1@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-18, at 12:06 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am reverse engineering the schematic for the input stage of my H7862 PSU. > I have come across a KBU6J bridge rectifier which seems to be connected only > to the two middle pins, which are the AC inputs. I can't see any other > connections. Before I desolder it to verify there are no connections I can't > see, does this make any sense? It's barely conceivable it could be getting used as a clamp or snubber. If you haven't found another bridge or rectifiers for the mains rectification, then keep looking for unseen connections to this bridge. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Dec 18 04:20:29 2017 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 10:20:29 +0000 (WET) Subject: Odd Connections to Rectifier? In-Reply-To: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01QMSCW3GB0A002QKP@beyondthepale.ie> > > I am reverse engineering the schematic for the input stage of my H7862 PSU. > I have come across a KBU6J bridge rectifier which seems to be connected only > to the two middle pins, which are the AC inputs. I can't see any other > connections. Before I desolder it to verify there are no connections I can't > see, does this make any sense? > If it is the main rectifier, continuity checks should show a dead short from the other two pins to the main smoothing capacitor(s) or maybe a very low resistance through a surge limiting resistor or inductor either of which should be easy to spot once you know what to look for. If it is not the main rectifier, could the AC inputs be connected across a current sensing resistor in the mains input with the DC outputs going to an optoisolator or something like that? Seems a bit unlikely though as the voltage drop across the rectifier would likely be too large compared to the voltage available across any current sensing resistor. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 08:35:15 2017 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 14:35:15 +0000 Subject: Odd Connections to Rectifier? In-Reply-To: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <00da01d377d7$20498740$60dc95c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 8:06 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am reverse engineering the schematic for the input stage of my H7862 PSU. > I have come across a KBU6J bridge rectifier which seems to be connected only > to the two middle pins, which are the AC inputs. I can't see any other > connections. Before I desolder it to verify there are no connections I can't > see, does this make any sense? I don't think it makes sense. With no connections to the other pins (+ve and -ve DC out I assume) then there is no DC (or AC) path through the rectifier, whatever the input, at least one diode is reverse-biased. Unless you are depending on the diodes to break down in a controlled way (and I can't believe it depends on that) then the bridge will do nothing. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 11:14:22 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 09:14:22 -0800 Subject: IBM MT/ST recovery; was: IBM 3480 DEC TKZ60 inquiry In-Reply-To: <5A37578F.5090900@pico-systems.com> References: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> <5A37578F.5090900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 12/17/2017 09:52 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > There were several DIFFERENT formats used with these standard tape > cartridges.? I have some old CDC Patriot tape drives that did a > serpentine single track at a time format on a 3480-compatible tape. I > don't think any DEC drive supported the 18-tracks-wide IBM 3480 format.? > I think DEC's drives were also serpentine.? If they are really from an > IBM compatible system (really too late for 360, most likely 370 systems) > then I think only an IBM-compatible drive would read them.? Wikipedia > says the 3480 was introduced in 1984. Well, this is part of the job. I got the potential client to send a photo of the cartridge--and he managed to get a 3480 cartridge for comparison. It's clearly an IBM MT/ST cart: https://imgur.com/a/K9vyg Anyone around who can recover the data from these things? --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Dec 18 12:25:32 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 13:25:32 -0500 Subject: XKCD on what we're doing Message-ID: https://xkcd.com/1909/ Our community isn't just about that, but it's part of what makes us tick. paul From cclist at sydex.com Mon Dec 18 14:57:11 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 12:57:11 -0800 Subject: IBM MT/ST recovery; was: IBM 3480 DEC TKZ60 inquiry In-Reply-To: References: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> <5A37578F.5090900@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8850113e-128f-907c-b85d-aaa48de921e0@sydex.com> Forgive the top-posting on my own post, but I think it's appropriate: Evidently, the client used an MT/ST to emulate a 2741 and the organization had a S/360 with a 2495 Magnetc Cartridge Reader: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-ProdAnn/2495-5.pdf I have to confess that I've never seen one of these "in the flesh". I doubt that any exist today, but I'll be happily disabused of this notion. --Chuck On 12/18/2017 09:14 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Well, this is part of the job. I got the potential client to send a > photo of the cartridge--and he managed to get a 3480 cartridge for > comparison. > > It's clearly an IBM MT/ST cart: > > https://imgur.com/a/K9vyg > > Anyone around who can recover the data from these things? > > --Chuck From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 15:01:57 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 13:01:57 -0800 Subject: eBay: MEMOREX 3693-2 & 3690-2 Disc Drive Mainframe IBM 3370-2 VINTAGE In-Reply-To: <4D8D713B-80C5-45A1-9300-BE3617CCF62C@shiresoft.com> References: <20171216214839.C052F18C089@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <4D8D713B-80C5-45A1-9300-BE3617CCF62C@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: Excellent! Congrats Guy. Looks like modempot really needs to move out of his building in a hurry. I think between me, you, Carl, Bob, the museum and a few ebay buyers we got all of the big stuff saved. Marc On Dec 17, 2017, at 4:44 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote: To let folks now, I?ve acquired the drives and am currently making arrangement for one of the local collectors to pick them up if I?m unable to and store them until I?m able to get them to my place. So they?ve been saved and I?m looking forward to being able to attach them to my 4331. TTFN - Guy >> On Dec 16, 2017, at 1:48 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> From: Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> I *really* want them and I'm within an hour (usually) of where they >> are. The problem is that right now I'm on a business trip until the end >> of the month and he needs this gone prior to 12/31. > > Why don't you reach out to the person and tell them you _really_ want them, > maybe they'll be able to let it go until you get back? > > Or is there someone in the Sacramanto area who can pick them up and hold them > until Guy can get them? I would offer to, but I'm on the wrong coast.... :-( > > Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Dec 18 18:26:18 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 16:26:18 -0800 Subject: IBM MT/ST recovery; was: IBM 3480 DEC TKZ60 inquiry In-Reply-To: <8850113e-128f-907c-b85d-aaa48de921e0@sydex.com> References: <46b35482-53e6-a68c-eddb-a7f9fcdc19c8@sydex.com> <5A37578F.5090900@pico-systems.com> <8850113e-128f-907c-b85d-aaa48de921e0@sydex.com> Message-ID: http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102662523 Digi-Data made a widget to read the tapes as well. On 12/18/17 12:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > Forgive the top-posting on my own post, but I think it's appropriate: > > Evidently, the client used an MT/ST to emulate a 2741 and the > organization had a S/360 with a 2495 Magnetc Cartridge Reader: > From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Mon Dec 18 22:07:01 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Mon, 18 Dec 2017 23:07:01 -0500 Subject: XKCD on what we're doing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 1:25 PM, Paul Koning via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > https://xkcd.com/1909/ > > Our community isn't just about that, but it's part of what makes us tick. > Preserving knowledge is an ongoing problem and getting harder to solve. Vint Cerf talks about it a lot. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GV0A82TCrf0 https://www.nitrd.gov/news/digital-vellum-and-archives.aspx From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 19 12:49:57 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 13:49:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details Message-ID: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, Dave and I are getting to the point where we're about to start mounting up our indicator panels, but we're not sure what some of the mechanical details (below) are. Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even better, send us photos)? It appears that the bezel and inlay mount to the rack with the same kind of 'ball on post' (BoP) mounting things used for blank panels. What we can't quite make out is how the Belenex light shield, and the circuit board with the bulbs on it, mount to the rack. I suspect it's totally independent from the mounting of the BoP mounting devices for the bezel/inlay, but.... The one mechanical drawing we have (RF11 engineering drawings, pg. 186) does have cross-sections, which confirm the board is mounted to the Benelex on stand-offs, and that the Benelex is somehow thrust up into the bezel, but exactly how the Benelex is mounted is not clear to me. The mention of a "Mtg Bkt Benelex" suggests that's mounted to the rack with brackets, but... Help!? Thanks (hopefully :-)! Noel From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 12:50:39 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:50:39 -0800 Subject: MicroVAX I Diagnostic floppies Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm attempting to resurrect a MicroVAX I (because it's there, that's why) and the CPU appears to have developed a fault. Microverify passes at powerup, but I can't get VMS to boot (it dies with a SYSBOOT-F-Unexpected Machine Check almost immediately). Also tried Ultrix and it dies shortly after enumerating disks. I know the memory and disk controllers are fine, and there's nothing else in the system at the moment, so unless anyone has any bright ideas, I think I'm going to need to debug the CPU. I'm trying to track down the diagnostics for this machine, no luck so far. Anyone have a copy sitting around somewhere? I believe there were two RX50 floppies for this purpose, DEC part numbers BL-T856A-DE and BL-T857A-DE. Thanks as always, Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 12:59:25 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 10:59:25 -0800 Subject: MicroVAX I Diagnostic floppies In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well, that figures. Found them here, for future reference: https://www.headcrashers.org/comp/rx50/index.html - Josh On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 10:50 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm attempting to resurrect a MicroVAX I (because it's there, that's why) > and the CPU appears to have developed a fault. Microverify passes at > powerup, but I can't get VMS to boot (it dies with a SYSBOOT-F-Unexpected > Machine Check almost immediately). Also tried Ultrix and it dies shortly > after enumerating disks. I know the memory and disk controllers are fine, > and there's nothing else in the system at the moment, so unless anyone has > any bright ideas, I think I'm going to need to debug the CPU. > > I'm trying to track down the diagnostics for this machine, no luck so > far. Anyone have a copy sitting around somewhere? I believe there were > two RX50 floppies for this purpose, DEC part numbers BL-T856A-DE and > BL-T857A-DE. > > Thanks as always, > Josh > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 15:58:03 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 16:58:03 -0500 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 1:49 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, Dave and I are getting to the point where we're about to start mounting up > our indicator panels, but we're not sure what some of the mechanical details > (below) are. > > Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even better, > send us photos)? I have one or two of these indicator panels (missing cables, IIRC). I will dig them out and see what I can get. Mine arrived already de-installed, so I have no idea what they looked like on the rack. I can at least get details of where the mounting points are. -ethan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Dec 19 16:15:44 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:15:44 -0800 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 12/19/17 10:49 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even better, > send us photos)? If someone can't get to mounted ones, I can trundle over to CHM artifact storage and look at one of our racks. I would think LCM should have some readily accessable, though. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 16:25:46 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:25:46 -0800 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > > On 12/19/17 10:49 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > > Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even > better, > > send us photos)? > > > If someone can't get to mounted ones, I can trundle over to CHM artifact > storage > and look at one of our racks. > > I would think LCM should have some readily accessable, though. > > > I will see if I can grab some pictures this afternoon. We have a few cabinets that I can take a close look at the innards of. - Josh From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 16:36:34 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:36:34 -0800 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> >> >> On 12/19/17 10:49 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >> >> > Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even >> better, >> > send us photos)? >> >> >> If someone can't get to mounted ones, I can trundle over to CHM artifact >> storage >> and look at one of our racks. >> >> I would think LCM should have some readily accessable, though. >> >> >> > I will see if I can grab some pictures this afternoon. We have a few > cabinets that I can take a close look at the innards of. > > - Josh > > > See the pictures at the below link: https://1drv.ms/f/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMotpQIuc2-tDUva3iBw It looks to be fairly straightforward; the plastic "ball on post" brackets are mounted to the rack rails, and there are metal brackets that screw into the BOP brackets that hold the PCB/lamp assembly. Hope this is the right assembly for you, if not, or if you have questions, let me know and I can try to fill in the holes... - Josh From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Dec 19 16:48:48 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 14:48:48 -0800 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <549b924c-877e-87ec-2839-e72153dc40a8@jwsss.com> On 12/19/2017 2:36 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:15 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >>> >>> On 12/19/17 10:49 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: >>> >>>> Could someone who has one please take a look and let us know (or, even >>> better, >>>> send us photos)? >>> >>> If someone can't get to mounted ones, I can trundle over to CHM artifact >>> storage >>> and look at one of our racks. >>> >>> I would think LCM should have some readily accessable, though. >>> >>> >>> >> I will see if I can grab some pictures this afternoon. We have a few >> cabinets that I can take a close look at the innards of. >> >> - Josh >> >> >> > See the pictures at the below link: > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMotpQIuc2-tDUva3iBw > > It looks to be fairly straightforward; the plastic "ball on post" brackets > are mounted to the rack rails, and there are metal brackets that screw into > the BOP brackets that hold the PCB/lamp assembly. > > Hope this is the right assembly for you, if not, or if you have questions, > let me know and I can try to fill in the holes... > > - Josh > > I am not sure if it is what you need, but Vince S did some 3d print STL files for some of the ball mounting gizmos. http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php thanks Jim From dab at froghouse.org Tue Dec 19 16:57:05 2017 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 17:57:05 -0500 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <969b1d29-1b45-dd5b-b3b7-ee42445d93c5@froghouse.org> On 12/19/2017 05:36 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > See the pictures at the below link: > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMotpQIuc2-tDUva3iBw > > It looks to be fairly straightforward; the plastic "ball on post" brackets > are mounted to the rack rails, and there are metal brackets that screw into > the BOP brackets that hold the PCB/lamp assembly. > > Hope this is the right assembly for you, if not, or if you have questions, > let me know and I can try to fill in the holes... Those pictures are just what we were looking for.? That's pretty close to what we thought but I wouldn't have guessed that the metal brackets to the PCB/lamp assembly screwed to the ball-on-post brackets rather than directly to the rack rails. Thanks, Dave From chd at chdickman.com Tue Dec 19 18:35:47 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:35:47 -0500 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Marco Rauhut via cctalk wrote: > Thanks for your quick answer! > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > Marco There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old vaxstations, but there is no documentation. If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be very interested. -chuck From chd at chdickman.com Tue Dec 19 18:45:06 2017 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:45:06 -0500 Subject: WTB: M8360 Omnibus Data Break Interface Message-ID: Does anyone have a M8360 they are willing to part with? Let me know offline. -chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Dec 19 18:58:40 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 19:58:40 -0500 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: References: <20171219184957.D789518C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 5:36 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: > On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 2:25 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > See the pictures at the below link: > > https://1drv.ms/f/s!Aqb36sqnCIfMotpQIuc2-tDUva3iBw > > It looks to be fairly straightforward; the plastic "ball on post" brackets > are mounted to the rack rails, and there are metal brackets that screw into > the BOP brackets that hold the PCB/lamp assembly. Those look like what I have. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 19 19:44:08 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 17:44:08 -0800 Subject: Found another one... Message-ID: <6bdb6daf-a2fd-7ea7-14bd-fab7661e8882@sydex.com> Discovered a Z-World "Tiny Giant" SBC220D development board. Seems to work; if powered on, the LED blinks. Its a Zilog Z180 board--and I can't remember a thing about it other than playing with it a bit. Yours for shipping (it's about 5x6") and should fit in a USPS small FRB. ------------------ While I'm at it, any interest in Neoware thin clients? I've got a few; they're set up for CF card as hard disk, but most have 5GB microdrives installed. How about 3-button serial mice? Cheers, Chuck From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Dec 19 19:52:34 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 19 Dec 2017 20:52:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details Message-ID: <20171220015234.79B4B18C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > See the pictures at the below link: ... > Hope this is the right assembly for you Yes, those are _exactly_ what we're looking for. Thanks very much for taking the time to take those! Noel From dj.taylor4 at comcast.net Tue Dec 19 23:45:54 2017 From: dj.taylor4 at comcast.net (Douglas Taylor) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 00:45:54 -0500 Subject: Extra chips in PDP11/23 plus cpu board Message-ID: There is a CPU board for sale on ebay, M8189, and it has the usual 3 chips CPU, MMU, FPU.? However, there are 2 extra chips and I've never seen that before. Anyone know what this is? Ebay item 122867114663? - Vintage Mint Digital DEC M8189 CPU Module Board KDF11-B Doug From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Wed Dec 20 00:16:18 2017 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 17:16:18 +1100 Subject: Extra chips in PDP11/23 plus cpu board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote: > There is a CPU board for sale on ebay, M8189, and it has the usual 3 chips > CPU, MMU, FPU. However, there are 2 extra chips and I've never seen that > before. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11_architecture#Optional_instruction_sets Microcode ROMs for the CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Dec 20 03:40:27 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 01:40:27 -0800 Subject: tumble tiff to pdf converter Message-ID: <00e92de2-f4d7-68eb-4ddc-bfd0bd8a75fd@jwsss.com> Has anyone tried to build tumble on Ubuntu 16?? I've used the libtiff, libpbm and the like that are included in the current system as installed, and there are problems now with the tumble_pbm.c code parameters (line 237 specifically). I had built up and saved a build with my own downloaded and built libtiff and libpbm, but those packages won't build anymore either. Hoping not to rathole Al maybe Eric?? someone else who is using it to convert tiff to pdfs.? I've scanned some stuff and would prefer to use the full bitsavers toolchain, as well as have notes on how to build going forward. I'll flail on it more if noone is interested, but spent enough times tonight trying to build it before asking. thanks Jim From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 20 04:06:49 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:06:49 +0100 (CET) Subject: tumble tiff to pdf converter In-Reply-To: <00e92de2-f4d7-68eb-4ddc-bfd0bd8a75fd@jwsss.com> References: <00e92de2-f4d7-68eb-4ddc-bfd0bd8a75fd@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017, jim stephens wrote: > and the like that are included in the current system as installed, and there > are problems now with the tumble_pbm.c code parameters (line 237 > specifically). Huh? # wc -l tumble_pbm.c 231 tumble_pbm.c This is the last known version (part of tumble 0.33 from 2003): * $Id: tumble_pbm.c,v 1.1 2003/04/10 00:47:30 eric Exp $ Christian From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Dec 20 04:30:43 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:30:43 +0100 (CET) Subject: tumble tiff to pdf converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e92de2-f4d7-68eb-4ddc-bfd0bd8a75fd@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 20 Dec 2017, Christian Corti wrote: > Huh? > # wc -l tumble_pbm.c > 231 tumble_pbm.c > > This is the last known version (part of tumble 0.33 from 2003): > * $Id: tumble_pbm.c,v 1.1 2003/04/10 00:47:30 eric Exp $ Ok, I see, whoever changed tumble as found on github forgot to change all version numbers, to update the README and many things more :-( But anyway, it compiles happily with two modifications in tumble_pbm.c: - add the following line in front of the first include statement: #define HAVE_BOOL - change the following line from #include to #include # ./tumble fatal error: either a control file or an output file (but not both) must be specified tumble version 0.35 - Copyright 2001-2003 Eric Smith http://tumble.brouhaha.com/ usage: ./tumble [options] -c ./tumble [options] ... -o ./tumble -V options: -v verbose -b create bookmarks -V print program version bookmark format: %F file name (sans suffix) %p page number # gcc --version gcc (Debian 7.2.0-16) 7.2.0 Copyright (C) 2017 Free Software Foundation, Inc. This is free software; see the source for copying conditions. There is NO warranty; not even for MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE. Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 20 07:58:18 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 08:58:18 -0500 Subject: Extra chips in PDP11/23 plus cpu board In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 20, 2017, at 1:16 AM, Nigel Williams via cctalk wrote: > > On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 4:45 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk > wrote: >> There is a CPU board for sale on ebay, M8189, and it has the usual 3 chips >> CPU, MMU, FPU. However, there are 2 extra chips and I've never seen that >> before. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PDP-11_architecture#Optional_instruction_sets > > Microcode ROMs for the CIS (Commercial Instruction Set) I believe PDP11 COBOL makes use of those if available, and the RSTS kernel will use the string move instruction for block memory copies if it sees CIS. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 20 08:48:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:48:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details Message-ID: <20171220144856.2B9B718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > the plastic "ball on post" brackets PS: Apparently the 'official' DEC name for the 'ball on post' plastic brackets is "latch molding". Not very descriptive/apt, alas. Noel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Dec 20 09:48:20 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:48:20 -0600 Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details In-Reply-To: <20171220144856.2B9B718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171220144856.2B9B718C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: theres a 3d model for printing those brakets over on this site http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 8:48 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > the plastic "ball on post" brackets > > PS: Apparently the 'official' DEC name for the 'ball on post' plastic > brackets > is "latch molding". Not very descriptive/apt, alas. > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Dec 20 10:00:01 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 11:00:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC indicator panel mounting details Message-ID: <20171220160001.835E018C084@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Adrian Stoness > theres a 3d model for printing those brakets over on this site > http://so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2017-December/036544.html Noel From cclist at sydex.com Wed Dec 20 11:32:54 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 09:32:54 -0800 Subject: Found another one... In-Reply-To: <6bdb6daf-a2fd-7ea7-14bd-fab7661e8882@sydex.com> References: <6bdb6daf-a2fd-7ea7-14bd-fab7661e8882@sydex.com> Message-ID: Got a taker for the Z World board. Thanks all! Chuck From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Dec 20 14:07:55 2017 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 20:07:55 +0000 Subject: Vaxstation 4000 m60 and NetBSD In-Reply-To: References: <3c6cacd2-33f3-2431-d0c9-b71139234de1@familie-rauhut.eu> <878te1o9ty.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> <0e024b5c-acd2-39ea-3de1-e5eaf1246f2f@familie-rauhut.eu> Message-ID: Good luck and let us know how you get on. There was some activity on this a good few years ago. The most recent video development is probably the support for graphics devices in SIMH by Matt - see http://9track.net/simh/video/ Regards, Mark. On 20 December 2017 at 00:35, Charles Dickman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sun, Dec 17, 2017 at 7:09 AM, Marco Rauhut via cctalk > wrote: > > Thanks for your quick answer! > > > > Hardware support say no support for LCG Graphics :-( > > > > Marco > > There are a few people willing to work on graphics for old > vaxstations, but there is no documentation. > > If anyone has documentation, the netbsd vax port mailing list would be > very interested. > > -chuck > From Mark at Misty.com Wed Dec 20 20:18:50 2017 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 21:18:50 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and > > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take > > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted > > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. > > > > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but > > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google > > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. > > > > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. > > > > Mark > > Mark, > > If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried the > regular stuff. > > What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple eraser > unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have > issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom > eraser unit. They seem to erase fine, using a PRO-LOG 9103 eraser (box, timer, tube...) > I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other > options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before here, > about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, > and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not > make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that > simply erasing them. > > > Bill Erasing seems to work fine. It's the re-programming them that is the problem. On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 02:49:39PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: > When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair > the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. > > It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped by baking. > > Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating layer that was damaged. > > Dwight I don't think these chips have been reprogrammed many times. It seems more age related, affecting some brands/models in my spares but not others. The failure mode is the chips erase successfully, but any attempt to program them fails, and they still test blank and read back "ffff...". Some of these were chips I erased years ago before putting in my spares drawer, and some had fine working code on them, but I erased them to re-program with a newer version of software on them, to discover I could not. My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. I don't think I have a programmer problem. I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From shumaker at att.net Wed Dec 20 18:39:23 2017 From: shumaker at att.net (steve shumaker) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 16:39:23 -0800 Subject: Found another one... In-Reply-To: <6bdb6daf-a2fd-7ea7-14bd-fab7661e8882@sydex.com> References: <6bdb6daf-a2fd-7ea7-14bd-fab7661e8882@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3cbb2698-3d03-0794-d798-d7a192b078f5@att.net> yo Chuck!? I'll make a home for the Z-World SBC if it's still unclaimed. Steve Shumaker On 12/19/2017 5:44 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctech wrote: > Discovered a Z-World "Tiny Giant" SBC220D development board. Seems to > work; if powered on, the LED blinks. Its a Zilog Z180 board--and I can't > remember a thing about it other than playing with it a bit. > > Yours for shipping (it's about 5x6") and should fit in a USPS small FRB. > > ------------------ > While I'm at it, any interest in Neoware thin clients? I've got a few; > they're set up for CF card as hard disk, but most have 5GB microdrives > installed. > > How about 3-button serial mice? > > Cheers, > Chuck > From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Thu Dec 21 00:27:16 2017 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 20 Dec 2017 22:27:16 -0800 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay Message-ID: PDP 11/03? LSI-11? Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/302392510749?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 07:29:19 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 13:29:19 +0000 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's a lot to pay for a box that might have nothing in it at all. At best, it's a third part QBUS box. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 1:27 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay PDP 11/03? LSI-11? Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. https://www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/302392510749?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From peter at rittwage.com Thu Dec 21 09:05:06 2017 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:05:06 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: > Hi, > >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and >> > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take >> > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted >> > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. >> > >> > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but >> > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google >> > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. >> > >> > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. >> > >> > Mark >> >> Mark, >> >> If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried >> the >> regular stuff. >> >> What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple >> eraser >> unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have >> issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom >> eraser unit. > > They seem to erase fine, using a PRO-LOG 9103 eraser (box, timer, tube...) > >> I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other >> options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before >> here, >> about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, >> and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not >> make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that >> simply erasing them. >> >> >> Bill > > Erasing seems to work fine. It's the re-programming them that is the > problem. > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 02:49:39PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair >> the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. >> >> It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped >> by baking. >> >> Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the >> leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of >> program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating >> layer that was damaged. >> >> Dwight > > I don't think these chips have been reprogrammed many times. It seems more > age related, affecting some brands/models in my spares but not others. > > The failure mode is the chips erase successfully, but any attempt to > program them fails, and they still test blank and read back "ffff...". > Some of these were chips I erased years ago before putting in my spares > drawer, and some had fine working code on them, but I erased them to > re-program with a newer version of software on them, to discover I could > not. > > My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, > Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. > > In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A > programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. > I don't think I have a programmer problem. > > I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven > to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I > tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. > Are you positive you have the programming voltage right? I have a box of really old ones and every time I have to research a little to find the right voltage for different brands. All 27128's are not the same, for example. Some are 12V, some may be 25V (for example). My programmer only has one setting in the software, and I have to change jumpers to modify programming voltage. My USB programmer won't touch any of the old ones because I assume it can't provide enough voltage/current for them. -Pete Rittwage From peter at rittwage.com Thu Dec 21 09:05:06 2017 From: peter at rittwage.com (Pete Rittwage) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 10:05:06 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: > Hi, > >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and >> > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take >> > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted >> > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. >> > >> > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but >> > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google >> > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. >> > >> > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. >> > >> > Mark >> >> Mark, >> >> If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried >> the >> regular stuff. >> >> What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple >> eraser >> unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have >> issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom >> eraser unit. > > They seem to erase fine, using a PRO-LOG 9103 eraser (box, timer, tube...) > >> I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other >> options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before >> here, >> about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, >> and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not >> make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that >> simply erasing them. >> >> >> Bill > > Erasing seems to work fine. It's the re-programming them that is the > problem. > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 02:49:39PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair >> the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. >> >> It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped >> by baking. >> >> Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the >> leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of >> program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating >> layer that was damaged. >> >> Dwight > > I don't think these chips have been reprogrammed many times. It seems more > age related, affecting some brands/models in my spares but not others. > > The failure mode is the chips erase successfully, but any attempt to > program them fails, and they still test blank and read back "ffff...". > Some of these were chips I erased years ago before putting in my spares > drawer, and some had fine working code on them, but I erased them to > re-program with a newer version of software on them, to discover I could > not. > > My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, > Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. > > In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A > programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. > I don't think I have a programmer problem. > > I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven > to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I > tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. > Are you positive you have the programming voltage right? I have a box of really old ones and every time I have to research a little to find the right voltage for different brands. All 27128's are not the same, for example. Some are 12V, some may be 25V (for example). My programmer only has one setting in the software, and I have to change jumpers to modify programming voltage. My USB programmer won't touch any of the old ones because I assume it can't provide enough voltage/current for them. -Pete Rittwage From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Dec 21 10:07:25 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 11:07:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay Message-ID: <20171221160725.5E64218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Bill Gunshannon > At best, it's a third part QBUS box. I assume that was 'third party'? No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand chassis, but I would _guess_ not. (The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold the BA11-N/BA11-S, but I don't recall what the housing for the BA11-M's looked like.) For some reason the BA11-M's seem to have been going for more than the BA11-N's. Dunno why, maybe the original LSI-11's have some sort of appeal? Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 11:34:59 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 17:34:59 +0000 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>, Message-ID: If you've over voltages them, they are history. If the ground pin is not making good contact and you try to program them, they will also be history. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Pete Rittwage via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 7:05:06 AM To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: EPROM baking > Hi, > >> On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 9:08 AM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > I am working on several projects requiring 2708 and 2716 EPROMs, and >> > am finding some of my chips will not erase, and some will not take >> > a program. I've also learned more in the past week than I wanted >> > to know about repairing Data-I/O 29a/b programmers. >> > >> > I vaguely remember in the 1990s baking such EPROMs in the oven, but >> > I do not remember temperature or time. I was surprised that Google >> > didn't turn up anything useful with this info. >> > >> > I'm sure someone here will have some notes on EPROM baking. >> > >> > Mark >> >> Mark, >> >> If this is an issue about reviving bad eproms? I assume you have tried >> the >> regular stuff. >> >> What process are you using now to erase 2708/16's? I have a simple >> eraser >> unit and it seems to always work. Some eproms go bad but I never have >> issues with erasing them. My point is that maybe you need a better prom >> eraser unit. > > They seem to erase fine, using a PRO-LOG 9103 eraser (box, timer, tube...) > >> I would avoid baking them until you have exhausted other >> options. Not sure what others think. This topic has come up before >> here, >> about putting them outside and all that. The erasers are all over ebay, >> and the hardware store is full of the correct types of lighting, why not >> make a box that will do the job? I assume there is more to it that >> simply erasing them. >> >> >> Bill > > Erasing seems to work fine. It's the re-programming them that is the > problem. > > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 02:49:39PM +0000, dwight via cctalk wrote: >> When I was at Intel, years ago, I recall the baking was only to repair >> the retention of the EPROMs. It was not to fix random failures. >> >> It sounds like your EPROMs have various failures that wouldn't be helped >> by baking. >> >> Each time the EPROM is programmed, there is a slight increase in the >> leakage of the floating gate. This was typical after thousands of >> program/erase cycles. Baking them repaired the damage to the insulating >> layer that was damaged. >> >> Dwight > > I don't think these chips have been reprogrammed many times. It seems more > age related, affecting some brands/models in my spares but not others. > > The failure mode is the chips erase successfully, but any attempt to > program them fails, and they still test blank and read back "ffff...". > Some of these were chips I erased years ago before putting in my spares > drawer, and some had fine working code on them, but I erased them to > re-program with a newer version of software on them, to discover I could > not. > > My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, > Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. > > In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A > programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. > I don't think I have a programmer problem. > > I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven > to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I > tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. > Are you positive you have the programming voltage right? I have a box of really old ones and every time I have to research a little to find the right voltage for different brands. All 27128's are not the same, for example. Some are 12V, some may be 25V (for example). My programmer only has one setting in the software, and I have to change jumpers to modify programming voltage. My USB programmer won't touch any of the old ones because I assume it can't provide enough voltage/current for them. -Pete Rittwage From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 12:23:16 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 18:23:16 +0000 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: <20171221160725.5E64218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171221160725.5E64218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I've never seen a blue tinted front cover from DEC. I've never seen one like that with screw holes exposed from the front. And if you look real close it appears to have little rubber feet on the bottom. Which still leaves the question of what if anything is inside that box. $250 is a lot to pay for a QBUS backplane and a PSU. I've paid less for entire running systems. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 11:07 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay > From: Bill Gunshannon > At best, it's a third part QBUS box. I assume that was 'third party'? No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand chassis, but I would _guess_ not. (The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold the BA11-N/BA11-S, but I don't recall what the housing for the BA11-M's looked like.) For some reason the BA11-M's seem to have been going for more than the BA11-N's. Dunno why, maybe the original LSI-11's have some sort of appeal? Noel From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 12:38:34 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:38:34 -0600 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20171221160725.5E64218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: anyone look through what els he has? someone here might like this https://www.ebay.com/itm/ROSS-VIDEO-LIMITED-RVS-424-CP-WITH-POWER-SUPPLY-LOADED/301522351826?hash=item463421f6d2:g:yZsAAOSwx-lU2FG5 On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 12:23 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I've never seen a blue tinted front cover from DEC. I've never seen one > like > that with screw holes exposed from the front. And if you look real close > it > appears to have little rubber feet on the bottom. > > Which still leaves the question of what if anything is inside that box. > $250 > is a lot to pay for a QBUS backplane and a PSU. I've paid less for entire > running systems. > > bill > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 11:07 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay > > > From: Bill Gunshannon > > > At best, it's a third part QBUS box. > > I assume that was 'third party'? > > No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand > chassis, but I would _guess_ not. > > (The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold > the BA11-N/BA11-S, but I don't recall what the housing for the BA11-M's > looked like.) > > For some reason the BA11-M's seem to have been going for more than the > BA11-N's. Dunno why, maybe the original LSI-11's have some sort of appeal? > > Noel > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 12:40:17 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 19:40:17 +0100 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: <20171221160725.5E64218C094@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2017-12-21 19:23 GMT+01:00 Bill Gunshannon via cctalk : > I've never seen a blue tinted front cover from DEC. I've never seen one > like > that with screw holes exposed from the front. And if you look real close > it > appears to have little rubber feet on the bottom. > > Which still leaves the question of what if anything is inside that box. > $250 > is a lot to pay for a QBUS backplane and a PSU. I've paid less for entire > running systems. > FYI this is how my BA11-M front look like: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1FK6p9YvvH9AO-WC0CvEAAWH_QZnnHSVj Apart from the PDP-11/03 badge and the color they are identical.. /Mattis > bill > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Noel Chiappa > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 11:07 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay > > > From: Bill Gunshannon > > > At best, it's a third part QBUS box. > > I assume that was 'third party'? > > No, that's a real DEC front panel. They could have put that on an off-brand > chassis, but I would _guess_ not. > > (The outer housing I can see looks like the slide-in ones DEC used to hold > the BA11-N/BA11-S, but I don't recall what the housing for the BA11-M's > looked like.) > > For some reason the BA11-M's seem to have been going for more than the > BA11-N's. Dunno why, maybe the original LSI-11's have some sort of appeal? > > Noel > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 21 14:00:33 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:00:33 -0800 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/20/2017 10:27 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > PDP 11/03? LSI-11? > > Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. > VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/ > https://www.ebay.com/itm/302392510749 > > Bob > The ad says it weighs 150#? That box is heavy, but is not a 150# item.? I suspect there is more to it.? There seems to be cables going out of the back, perhaps to something else for the instrument. thanks Jim From bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com Thu Dec 21 14:08:16 2017 From: bill.gunshannon at hotmail.com (Bill Gunshannon) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 20:08:16 +0000 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Further comment. Notice the difference in height compared to a standard DEC box of that style. Also notice he is holding up the #150 box with his fingers. Remind me never to arm wrestle that guy. Personally, I don't think it is a DEC system at all. bill ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens via cctalk Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:00 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay On 12/20/2017 10:27 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > PDP 11/03? LSI-11? > > Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. > VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/ > https://www.ebay.com/itm/302392510749 > > Bob > The ad says it weighs 150# That box is heavy, but is not a 150# item. I suspect there is more to it. There seems to be cables going out of the back, perhaps to something else for the instrument. thanks Jim From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Dec 21 14:18:16 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 15:18:16 -0500 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Dec 21, 2017, at 3:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > > Further comment. Notice the difference in height compared to a standard > DEC box of that style. Also notice he is holding up the #150 box with his > fingers. Remind me never to arm wrestle that guy. > Personally, I don't think it is a DEC system at all. Quite possible. After all, he advertised it as "Digital Instruments" which is a valid company name different from Digital Equipment. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 14:26:14 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:26:14 -0800 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The DIGITAL logo is visible on the inset portion of the panel next to the switches (it is a bit blurry). Further, this matches up with Mattis's picture quite nicely. It's an interesting shade of blue, but people have been known to repaint things... This looks like a DEC system to me. - Josh On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Further comment. Notice the difference in height compared to a standard > DEC box of that style. Also notice he is holding up the #150 box with his > fingers. Remind me never to arm wrestle that guy. > Personally, I don't think it is a DEC system at all. > > bill > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens > via cctalk > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:00 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay > > > > On 12/20/2017 10:27 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > PDP 11/03? LSI-11? > > > > Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. > > > VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/ > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/302392510749 > > > > Bob > > > The ad says it weighs 150# That box is heavy, but is not a 150# item. > I suspect there is more to it. There seems to be cables > going out of the back, perhaps to something else for the instrument. > > thanks > Jim > From wsudol at scng.com Thu Dec 21 14:15:43 2017 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 12:15:43 -0800 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The ad actually says "IF WEIGHT IS OVER 150 POUNDS THERE WILL BE A CHARGE FOR LIFTGATE OR RESIDENTIAL DELIVERY " not that it does weigh that much. ? From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 21 15:10:26 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 13:10:26 -0800 Subject: Anyone want a PMC 4.3G MO cartridge? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1f7b844d-3d78-7bd3-b92a-de263a3bbf93@sydex.com> More digging through junk that I'll never use, I've discovered that I've still got a 4.3GB (1024 byte sectors) Pinnacle MO cartridge. The drive itself went toes-up many years ago. Anyone want the cart? --Chuck From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 15:11:40 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 22:11:40 +0100 Subject: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2017-12-21 21:26 GMT+01:00 Josh Dersch via cctalk : > The DIGITAL logo is visible on the inset portion of the panel next to the > switches (it is a bit blurry). Further, this matches up with Mattis's > picture quite nicely. > > It's an interesting shade of blue, but people have been known to repaint > things... > > This looks like a DEC system to me. > It sure is. I have not only the front panel but also the rest of the BA11-M box . It is identical (except for the paint then...). No question about it. Nice little box by the way. Very useful when testing Qbus boards. H7270 backplane. 18 bit though, but if I cared I could just was well convert it to 22 bits I guess. I have two more photos here if that could possibly convince those who still are skeptical. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1NL0wF8JEdm74A9AxZb6J06IE_RaiiaWp https://drive.google.com/open?id=1UeDQK8klLueV9dJdedQtzFt4xfDwDG_j /Mattis > - Josh > > > On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 12:08 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > Further comment. Notice the difference in height compared to a standard > > DEC box of that style. Also notice he is holding up the #150 box with > his > > fingers. Remind me never to arm wrestle that guy. > > Personally, I don't think it is a DEC system at all. > > > > bill > > > > ________________________________ > > From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens > > via cctalk > > Sent: Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:00 PM > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Miss categorized DEC box on ebay > > > > > > > > On 12/20/2017 10:27 PM, Bob Rosenbloom via cctalk wrote: > > > PDP 11/03? LSI-11? > > > > > > Maybe someone can use it. Nice blue color. > > > > > VINTAGE-DIGITAL-INSTRUMENTS-COUNTER-HG-ELEMENTS/ > > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/302392510749 > > > > > > Bob > > > > > The ad says it weighs 150# That box is heavy, but is not a 150# item. > > I suspect there is more to it. There seems to be cables > > going out of the back, perhaps to something else for the instrument. > > > > thanks > > Jim > > > From aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk Thu Dec 21 18:38:15 2017 From: aaron at aaronsplace.co.uk (Aaron Jackson) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 00:38:15 +0000 Subject: Searching for manual for ADAC 1664ATTL output pulse board Message-ID: <87h8sjsiko.fsf@walrus.rhwyd.co.uk> Does anyone have a copy of the manual for the ADAC 1664ATTL 64bit parallel I/O Q-bus card? Thanks, Aaron. From sellam.ismail at gmail.com Thu Dec 21 22:06:30 2017 From: sellam.ismail at gmail.com (Sellam Ismail) Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2017 20:06:30 -0800 Subject: FS: New-Old Stock S-100 Kits: Cromemco Dazzler & ZPU, IMSAI FIF-XA, PT VDM-1 & more! Message-ID: Hello again, Folks! I came across a pretty amazing find in my stuff that I didn't even know I had and have no recollection from where I got them. It's a box of unbuilt S-100 board kits. Some of the kits are complete (board, parts, documentation), others might be missing the documentation or components. And then I have a bunch of bare boards, including a fair number of prototyping boards. I created an unboxing video, which can be watched here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGgX3WPK34 Complete information including links to photos and pricing can be found here on my new dedicated S-100 sales thread on the VCFed forums: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s-S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread Scroll down to the third post for the newly posted S-100 kits. Please inquire directly to me via e-mail for fastest results. Thanks! Sellam From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Dec 22 10:30:13 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 08:30:13 -0800 Subject: FS: New-Old Stock S-100 Kits: Cromemco Dazzler & ZPU, IMSAI FIF-XA, PT VDM-1 & more! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Just think what someone paid for them in 2017 dollars -pete On Thu, Dec 21, 2017 at 8:06 PM, Sellam Ismail via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hello again, Folks! > > I came across a pretty amazing find in my stuff that I didn't even know I > had and have no recollection from where I got them. It's a box of unbuilt > S-100 board kits. Some of the kits are complete (board, parts, > documentation), others might be missing the documentation or components. > And then I have a bunch of bare boards, including a fair number of > prototyping boards. > > I created an unboxing video, which can be watched here: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gGgX3WPK34 > > Complete information including links to photos and pricing can be found > here on my new dedicated S-100 sales thread on the VCFed forums: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61192-Sellam-s- > S-100-Hardware-Software-and-Peripherals-Sales-Thread > > Scroll down to the third post for the newly posted S-100 kits. > > Please inquire directly to me via e-mail for fastest results. > > Thanks! > > Sellam > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Fri Dec 22 23:04:07 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Fri, 22 Dec 2017 21:04:07 -0800 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: I see the same things. Some chips just won't reprogram. Symptoms include failure to program just like you, but also "chip backwards" errors. Can't remember the chip brands, I just toss them out when that happens. I have not found any way to resuscitate them. Maybe ~10% of the chips I tried had this, so rather frequent, but never any from new old stock. The failed ones were all previously programmed chips, just erased. Marc On Dec 20, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. I don't think I have a programmer problem. I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 02:08:35 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 09:08:35 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . Message-ID: I have started to work on a getting VT50 terminal back to life. When digging into it I recognze quite immediately that someone had done a brain transplant on it. It has VT52 boards in it! Was this a usual procedure? The VT50 to VT52 shift looks like a failure of DEC at the time. So close in time. But different board sets inside. They could have designed a board with RAM upgrade possibility and just a new microprogram? Looks strange to me. When the VT52 got on the market I guess it was hard to sell any VT50s or was there a substantial price difference? Anyhow, the VT52 boards are dead. They generate the proper sync signals but there are no keyclick generated when pressing keys on the keyboard. Which is quite normal since the sync is generated by a chain of counters while the keyboard is controlled by the microprogram. The terminal uses 4 pieces of 256 by 4 bipolar PROMs for a total of 512 bytes of microprogram. Has anyone dumped the contents of these so I could verify them? From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Dec 23 03:08:23 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 01:08:23 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> Hi Mattis, > On Dec 23, 2017, at 12:08 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > Anyhow, the VT52 boards are dead. ? The terminal uses 4 pieces > of 256 by 4 bipolar PROMs for a total of 512 bytes of microprogram. > Has anyone dumped the contents of these so I could verify them? I have a restored VT52. Taking a peek, I see these PROMs are socketed, so I can pull mine this weekend and give them a read for you no problem. I actually had a lot of trouble with a flaky oscillator when I was working through my VT52, but it sounds like your?s is going fine if you are observing the whole timing chain including video sync? cheers, ?FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 06:32:24 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 13:32:24 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> Message-ID: 2017-12-23 10:08 GMT+01:00 Fritz Mueller : > Hi Mattis, > > > On Dec 23, 2017, at 12:08 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Anyhow, the VT52 boards are dead. ? The terminal uses 4 pieces > > of 256 by 4 bipolar PROMs for a total of 512 bytes of microprogram. > > Has anyone dumped the contents of these so I could verify them? > > I have a restored VT52. Taking a peek, I see these PROMs are socketed, so > I can pull mine this weekend and give them a read for you no problem. > > I actually had a lot of trouble with a flaky oscillator when I was working > through my VT52, but it sounds like your?s is going fine if you are > observing the whole timing chain including video sync? > Yes, the oscillator seems to work. But it is a pain to work with the VT52 since the print set has very little information. Where is the component list? I cannot verify which PROM should go into what location. And the damn boards doesn't have any component designator anywhere, nor is there anything on the component placement info in the print set on the data path board. The PROMs in my machine are: 23-124A9, 23-125A9, 23-126A9 and 23-127A9. Is this the same as your VT52? Apparently there is an earlier PROM set as well. It would be very nice if you could tell me the location of the PROM chips as well. /Mattis > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 07:34:58 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 14:34:58 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> Message-ID: 2017-12-23 13:32 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > > > 2017-12-23 10:08 GMT+01:00 Fritz Mueller : > >> Hi Mattis, >> >> > On Dec 23, 2017, at 12:08 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < >> cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: >> > >> > Anyhow, the VT52 boards are dead. ? The terminal uses 4 pieces >> > of 256 by 4 bipolar PROMs for a total of 512 bytes of microprogram. >> > Has anyone dumped the contents of these so I could verify them? >> >> I have a restored VT52. Taking a peek, I see these PROMs are socketed, >> so I can pull mine this weekend and give them a read for you no problem. >> >> I actually had a lot of trouble with a flaky oscillator when I was >> working through my VT52, but it sounds like your?s is going fine if you are >> observing the whole timing chain including video sync? >> > > Yes, the oscillator seems to work. But it is a pain to work with the VT52 > since the print set has very little information. Where is the component > list? I cannot verify which PROM should go into what location. And the damn > boards doesn't have any component designator anywhere, nor is there > anything on the component placement info in the print set on the data path > board. > > The PROMs in my machine are: 23-124A9, 23-125A9, 23-126A9 and 23-127A9. Is > this the same as your VT52? Apparently there is an earlier PROM set as > well. > > It would be very nice if you could tell me the location of the PROM chips > as well. > > /Mattis > I did some more research into the terminal after I put the christmas ham steak into the oven and christmas rice pudding on the stove. There were nothing going on at the microprogram outputs. All high. It turned out that the CE input for the PROMS was high for ALL banks! Impossible! A 7400 at E34 was not doing well. After replacing that there are some life in the microprogram and I have some random klicks from the key klick relay. But still not working as it should. So more interesting fault finding ahead! 20+ years sitting in a cold attic probably is not good at all. > > >> >> cheers, >> ?FritzM. >> >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Dec 23 10:00:59 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 16:00:59 +0000 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>, Message-ID: When I had access to a wire bonder, we took EPROMs that had been plugged in upside down and removed the lids. We'd see a blown wire and replace it. On several of these parts we found that 100% worked. So it would seem that no silicon damage was done, just the bonding wire was blown like a fuse. I doubt this method would repair those blown from excess programming voltage. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Curious Marc via cctalk Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 9:04:07 PM To: Mark G Thomas; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: EPROM baking I see the same things. Some chips just won't reprogram. Symptoms include failure to program just like you, but also "chip backwards" errors. Can't remember the chip brands, I just toss them out when that happens. I have not found any way to resuscitate them. Maybe ~10% of the chips I tried had this, so rather frequent, but never any from new old stock. The failed ones were all previously programmed chips, just erased. Marc On Dec 20, 2017, at 6:18 PM, Mark G Thomas via cctalk wrote: My stash of TI and NEC 2732s seem to have the disease, but my ST, Mitsubishi, and several others program fine. In the case of a bunch of 2732s, I have tried both a vintage DataI/O 29A programmer and a modern Batronix programmer, with the same results. I don't think I have a programmer problem. I still swear someone in the late 80's had me baking EPROMs in an oven to restore their programability, but I don't remember the specifics. I tried a few at 450F for 15 minutes, but they still won't program. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From jonelson126 at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 11:04:33 2017 From: jonelson126 at gmail.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 11:04:33 -0600 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com>, Message-ID: <5A3E8CA1.10809@pico-systems.com> On 12/23/2017 10:00 AM, dwight via cctalk wrote: > When I had access to a wire bonder, we took EPROMs that had been plugged in upside down and removed the lids. We'd see a blown wire and replace it. > > On several of these parts we found that 100% worked. So it would seem that no silicon damage was done, just the bonding wire was blown like a fuse. > > I made my own 2716-2764 programmer MANY years ago. On a few occasions I put an EPROM in wrong and saw the bonding wires light up! I killed power and corrected the mistake, and the EPROM worked fine. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 11:51:34 2017 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 09:51:34 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> On 12/23/2017 5:34 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > 2017-12-23 13:32 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > >> Yes, the oscillator seems to work. But it is a pain to work with the VT52 >> since the print set has very little information. Where is the component >> list? I cannot verify which PROM should go into what location. And the damn >> boards doesn't have any component designator anywhere, nor is there >> anything on the component placement info in the print set on the data path >> board. >> >> The PROMs in my machine are: 23-124A9, 23-125A9, 23-126A9 and 23-127A9. Is >> this the same as your VT52? Apparently there is an earlier PROM set as >> well. >> >> It would be very nice if you could tell me the location of the PROM chips >> as well. >> >> /Mattis >> > I did some more research into the terminal after I put the christmas ham > steak into the oven and christmas rice pudding on the stove. > > There were nothing going on at the microprogram outputs. All high. It > turned out that the CE input for the PROMS was high for ALL banks! > Impossible! A 7400 at E34 was not doing well. After replacing that there > are some life in the microprogram and I have some random klicks from the > key klick relay. But still not working as it should. So more interesting > fault finding ahead! 20+ years sitting in a cold attic probably is not good > at all. I've been tinkering with a VT52 at the museum.? I found that the sockets for the PROMs are of poor quality and were not making good connections.? This may not be a problem in your case, but it's something to take a look at if you haven't already. - Josh > > >> >>> cheers, >>> ?FritzM. >>> >>> From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 12:34:30 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 19:34:30 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2017-12-23 18:51 GMT+01:00 Josh Dersch via cctalk : > On 12/23/2017 5:34 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > 2017-12-23 13:32 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : >> >> Yes, the oscillator seems to work. But it is a pain to work with the VT52 >>> since the print set has very little information. Where is the component >>> list? I cannot verify which PROM should go into what location. And the >>> damn >>> boards doesn't have any component designator anywhere, nor is there >>> anything on the component placement info in the print set on the data >>> path >>> board. >>> >>> The PROMs in my machine are: 23-124A9, 23-125A9, 23-126A9 and 23-127A9. >>> Is >>> this the same as your VT52? Apparently there is an earlier PROM set as >>> well. >>> >>> It would be very nice if you could tell me the location of the PROM chips >>> as well. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> I did some more research into the terminal after I put the christmas ham >> steak into the oven and christmas rice pudding on the stove. >> >> There were nothing going on at the microprogram outputs. All high. It >> turned out that the CE input for the PROMS was high for ALL banks! >> Impossible! A 7400 at E34 was not doing well. After replacing that there >> are some life in the microprogram and I have some random klicks from the >> key klick relay. But still not working as it should. So more interesting >> fault finding ahead! 20+ years sitting in a cold attic probably is not >> good >> at all. >> > > I've been tinkering with a VT52 at the museum. I found that the sockets > for the PROMs are of poor quality and were not making good connections. > This may not be a problem in your case, but it's something to take a look > at if you haven't already. > God point. I did re-seat all the PROMs, but there were no difference. When pushing a IC clip-on to the chip it appears that ICs slips out of the socket which probably means that the force in the contacts to hold the IC in place is not the best. Maybe I should just replace them to be sure. I found another ITT made 7400 that was bad, E8 on the UART & timing board. One output was always at 2V indicating that it was open circuit (pulled up by the input of the connected TTL). /Mattis > > - Josh > > >> >> >>> cheers, >>>> ?FritzM. >>>> >>>> >>>> > From fritzm at fritzm.org Sat Dec 23 13:39:41 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 11:39:41 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> Message-ID: <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> The most documentation I?ve seen re. the PROMs is pages A-1 and A-2 of the VT52 maintenance manual here: http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/ek-vt52-mm-002.pdf I think you?ve probably seen that already. I?ll post more info from my VT52 later when I make it downstairs to my shop later. I have noticed the flaky PROM sockets also; maybe I?ll just go ahead and replace them since I?ll have mine out on the bench anyway. Mattis? place probably smells like ham, pudding, and 70?s-era solder flux right now ? sounds like a good holiday :-) ?FritzM. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Sat Dec 23 15:02:47 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 22:02:47 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> l?r 2017-12-23 klockan 11:39 -0800 skrev Fritz Mueller via cctalk: > The most documentation I?ve seen re. the PROMs is pages A-1 and A-2 of the VT52 maintenance manual here: > > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/ek-vt52-mm-002.pdf > > I think you?ve probably seen that already. I?ll post more info from my VT52 later when I make it downstairs to my shop later. > > I have noticed the flaky PROM sockets also; maybe I?ll just go ahead and replace them since I?ll have mine out on the bench anyway. > > Mattis? place probably smells like ham, pudding, and 70?s-era solder flux right now ? sounds like a good holiday :-) > > ?FritzM. Hmm, i think maybe his place has a smell like this: stearinljus (candles) some gl?gg (mulled wine) julskinka (ham) or as in our case: lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 23 15:23:27 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 13:23:27 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/2017 01:02 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > stearinljus (candles) > some gl?gg (mulled wine) > julskinka (ham) > > or as in our case: > lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis > (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) Add the odor of some failed selenium rectifiers and you'll really have something to talk about! --Chuck From infected at analprolap.se Sat Dec 23 15:14:45 2017 From: infected at analprolap.se (Yvan Janssens) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 21:14:45 +0000 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: Don't forget the prinskorv and lax (it's expensiv... err, it's good*). *For the non-Swedes (or those without a Swedish partner), see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmeSmOsi-fY On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 9:03 PM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > l?r 2017-12-23 klockan 11:39 -0800 skrev Fritz Mueller via cctalk: > > The most documentation I?ve seen re. the PROMs is pages A-1 and A-2 of > the VT52 maintenance manual here: > > > > > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/ek-vt52-mm-002.pdf > > > > I think you?ve probably seen that already. I?ll post more info from my > VT52 later when I make it downstairs to my shop later. > > > > I have noticed the flaky PROM sockets also; maybe I?ll just go ahead and > replace them since I?ll have mine out on the bench anyway. > > > > Mattis? place probably smells like ham, pudding, and 70?s-era solder > flux right now ? sounds like a good holiday :-) > > > > ?FritzM. > > Hmm, i think maybe his place has a smell like this: > > stearinljus (candles) > some gl?gg (mulled wine) > julskinka (ham) > > or as in our case: > lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis > (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) > > From holm at freibergnet.de Sat Dec 23 17:26:52 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 00:26:52 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <20171223232652.GA49911@beast.freibergnet.de> Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/23/2017 01:02 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > > stearinljus (candles) > > some gl?gg (mulled wine) > > julskinka (ham) > > > > or as in our case: > > lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis > > (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) > > Add the odor of some failed selenium rectifiers and you'll really have > something to talk about! > > --Chuck :-) in german that devices are called "Gleichrichter" (Rectifier) an abbrevation is "gleich riecht er" what means something like next time it smells ... Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From mhs.stein at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 20:33:20 2017 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 21:33:20 -0500 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: Well, cod soaked in lye for a couple of days might well require something that starts or ends with 'lax' all right... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Yvan Janssens via cctalk" To: "Stefan Skoglund" ; "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 4:14 PM Subject: Re: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . Don't forget the prinskorv and lax (it's expensiv... err, it's good*). *For the non-Swedes (or those without a Swedish partner), see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmeSmOsi-fY On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 9:03 PM Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > l?r 2017-12-23 klockan 11:39 -0800 skrev Fritz Mueller via cctalk: > > The most documentation I?ve seen re. the PROMs is pages A-1 and A-2 of > the VT52 maintenance manual here: > > > > > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/pdp8docs/ek-vt52-mm-002.pdf > > > > I think you?ve probably seen that already. I?ll post more info from my > VT52 later when I make it downstairs to my shop later. > > > > I have noticed the flaky PROM sockets also; maybe I?ll just go ahead and > replace them since I?ll have mine out on the bench anyway. > > > > Mattis? place probably smells like ham, pudding, and 70?s-era solder > flux right now ? sounds like a good holiday :-) > > > > ?FritzM. > > Hmm, i think maybe his place has a smell like this: > > stearinljus (candles) > some gl?gg (mulled wine) > julskinka (ham) > > or as in our case: > lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis > (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 23 22:12:37 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 20:12:37 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: On 12/23/2017 07:24 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > I?m not sure you can smell the difference between failed selenium rectifiers and lutefisk... It probably doesn't get interesting until you toss in a can of surstr?mming... --Chuck From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 22:47:01 2017 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 23:47:01 -0500 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <5A3E8CA1.10809@pico-systems.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> <5A3E8CA1.10809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 12:04 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: > I made my own 2716-2764 programmer MANY years ago. On a few occasions I put > an EPROM in wrong and saw the bonding wires light up! I killed power and > corrected the mistake, and the EPROM worked fine. I did that once and had the same experience - a glow from under the lid, but no smoke... and put right-way-round, was still programmable and verifiable. -ethan From cclist at sydex.com Sat Dec 23 23:04:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 21:04:43 -0800 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> <5A3E8CA1.10809@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <79812ecf-9804-03fd-7e90-ddd88e57db76@sydex.com> On 12/23/2017 08:47 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > I did that once and had the same experience - a glow from under the > lid, but no smoke... and put right-way-round, was still programmable > and verifiable. Well, that's one way to "bake" an EPROM! --Chuck From useddec at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 23:13:43 2017 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 23:13:43 -0600 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: No Aebleskivers and Julekage? I baked the Danish variety of Julekage yesterday. On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 3:02 PM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > l?r 2017-12-23 klockan 11:39 -0800 skrev Fritz Mueller via cctalk: > > The most documentation I?ve seen re. the PROMs is pages A-1 and A-2 of > the VT52 maintenance manual here: > > > > http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8cgi/query_docs/tifftopdf.pl/ > pdp8docs/ek-vt52-mm-002.pdf > > > > I think you?ve probably seen that already. I?ll post more info from my > VT52 later when I make it downstairs to my shop later. > > > > I have noticed the flaky PROM sockets also; maybe I?ll just go ahead and > replace them since I?ll have mine out on the bench anyway. > > > > Mattis? place probably smells like ham, pudding, and 70?s-era solder > flux right now ? sounds like a good holiday :-) > > > > ?FritzM. > > Hmm, i think maybe his place has a smell like this: > > stearinljus (candles) > some gl?gg (mulled wine) > julskinka (ham) > > or as in our case: > lutfisk (dried ling later on soaked in lut and boiled) och potatis > (potatoes) och vits?s (a white sauce.) > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 23:14:55 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 21:14:55 -0800 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> Message-ID: By the way, on the Mac, a very excellent emulation of the Voyager series including the 16C and the 15C with a weird pseudo French name: "nonpareil-16C" Highly recommended, works as beautifully as it looks. I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has a bug. Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: Chuck Guzis , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Wednesday, December 6, 2017 at 8:05 PM To: "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: OT: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! On 12/06/2017 07:30 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote: You are welcome glad it is going again it is the very best programmers calculator ever made. Mine is just a little newer than yours and still going strong. I bought mine new when taking a 370 assembler course. I bought mine when my TI Programmer died. I did not like that calculator--small LED digits that did a poor job of hex displaying. The thing ate batteries for breakfast, lunch and dinner. For a time, I was involved in systems with long word length (60 (octal)/64 bit (hex)); when we started writing for the ETA 10, that little calculator earned its keep--48-bit *bit* addresses, with indices in bit, byte, halfword (32 bit) and 64-bit words. Calculating addresses by hand was "interesting" and the HP16C made it so much easier. The little thing has stayed on my desk ever since. I can't say that I've used the programmable feature more than a couple of times. I doubt that many bit-banging programmers have, either. It's a shame that HP discontinued it. --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 23:16:22 2017 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 23:16:22 -0600 Subject: EPROM baking In-Reply-To: <79812ecf-9804-03fd-7e90-ddd88e57db76@sydex.com> References: <20171213140834.GA3905@allie.home.misty.com> <20171221021850.GA4333@allie.home.misty.com> <5A3E8CA1.10809@pico-systems.com> <79812ecf-9804-03fd-7e90-ddd88e57db76@sydex.com> Message-ID: All chips should have windows. On Sat, Dec 23, 2017 at 11:04 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/23/2017 08:47 PM, Ethan Dicks via cctalk wrote: > > > I did that once and had the same experience - a glow from under the > > lid, but no smoke... and put right-way-round, was still programmable > > and verifiable. > > Well, that's one way to "bake" an EPROM! > > --Chuck > > > From js at cimmeri.com Sat Dec 23 23:18:51 2017 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 00:18:51 -0500 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has a bug. > > Marc http://hp15c.com/ From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sat Dec 23 23:27:24 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Sat, 23 Dec 2017 21:27:24 -0800 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <504e8b50-f1e4-df16-5329-f4124a070613@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <8914496B-E983-4F95-81D5-43D8B456766B@gmail.com> Thanks very much! I am going to install this one. But I was looking more specifically for a 16C on the PC. Anyone knows? Marc From: cctalk on behalf of "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Reply-To: "js at cimmeri.com" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Date: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:18 PM To: , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has a bug. Marc http://hp15c.com/ From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 02:43:45 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 09:43:45 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: s?ndag 24 december 2017 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk : > On 12/23/2017 07:24 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > I?m not sure you can smell the difference between failed selenium > rectifiers and lutefisk... > > It probably doesn't get interesting until you toss in a can of > surstr?mming... > > --Chuck > > Unfortunately I am not having any lutfisk this year. The rest of the family is not very fond of it. I like it with white sause, mustard and green peas. In Sweden lutfisk is usually made from dried l?nga (ling?). Never had the pleassure of having a selenium rectifier fail so I can't compare. My personal view is that the smell of cooking lutfisk is not that bad. The rest of the family disagree.. Surstr?mming is a whole different matter in terms of smell. As far as I understand this is a summer thing. Nothing you have for christmas. One need some heat to make it ferment I guess. I have tested it once back when in university, in the summertime on a small island in the archipelego. The guy that oppened the can did so on the other end of the island. My remebrance was that it was ok with onion and potato in a bread. But there were plenty of alcohol involved so the memories are a bit fuzzy... /Mattis From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 24 06:09:56 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 07:09:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . Message-ID: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > Unfortunately I am not having any lutfisk this year. The rest of the > family is not very fond of it. I"m glad to see there are _some_ non-crazy people there! :-) Anway, I can way top that - the tradition Bermudian Christmas dish is cassava pie: make that wrong (starting with raw cassava root), and it will _kill_ you! :-) (Cassava root contains a cyanide precursor. That's what cassava root is banned for human consumption in Japan. Somewhat ironic, the land of 'fugu' banning it! :-) Noel From sofubicollectibles at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 09:58:12 2017 From: sofubicollectibles at gmail.com (Greg Smith) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:58:12 -0500 Subject: SM EVM A131-10 advice Message-ID: Hi, I'm brand new to vintage computing and would love any advice. I'm thinking of putting together a SM EVM A131-10 and would appreciate any advice/knowledge on the unit.? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 24 12:27:30 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 18:27:30 -0000 Subject: Help Identifying Components Message-ID: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> I am continuing work to reverse engineer the schematic for my H7826 PSU. I have removed one of the daughter cards in order to draw its schematic, but I can't identify some of the surface mount components on it. I have posted a picture of it here: https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/50-19530.jpg The ones I can't identify are: 1. The component with two wide pins that looks like an IC approximately in the middle of the board. It is marked M106 (or it might be AA106) and 91813 underneath. I think it may be a resistor, but I am not sure. 2. Just to the right of this is another much thinner two-pin component which is black on top with a kind of white notch. I have no idea at all what this is. 3. The three 3-pin black components to the left of the first component. Two of them are marked "2T L" (or is that "ZT L"?), one appears to be marked "2X I" (letter "ih", not letter "el"). I guess they are transistors, but they may not be of course, and I don't know their pinout. Any help with identifying what these are would be very helpful. Thanks Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 24 12:39:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:39:43 -0800 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> On 12/24/2017 10:27 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > 1. The component with two wide pins that looks like an IC > approximately in the middle of the board. It is marked M106 (or it might be > AA106) and 91813 underneath. I think it may be a resistor, but I am not > sure. > > 2. Just to the right of this is another much thinner two-pin component > which is black on top with a kind of white notch. I have no idea at all what > this is. > > 3. The three 3-pin black components to the left of the first > component. Two of them are marked "2T L" (or is that "ZT L"?), one appears > to be marked "2X I" (letter "ih", not letter "el"). I guess they are > transistors, but they may not be of course, and I don't know their pinout. My guesses are as follows. 1. That "AA" or "M" looks to me like a Motorola logo. The fact that this device is polarized leads me to suspect that it's a diode. 2. I suspect that this thing is a fuse. 3. Almost certainly transistors. The center pin is usually the collector. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 24 13:15:08 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 19:15:08 -0000 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> Message-ID: <005701d37ceb$836269a0$8a273ce0$@ntlworld.com> > My guesses are as follows. > > 1. That "AA" or "M" looks to me like a Motorola logo. The fact that this device > is polarized leads me to suspect that it's a diode. > > 2. I suspect that this thing is a fuse. > > 3. Almost certainly transistors. The center pin is usually the collector. > > --Chuck > Many thanks, those make sense. I tested the first one in circuit to see if it was a diode and that seems to be correct. I think the orange components are capacitors (they are taller than the browner ones), but their markings don't seem to hint at the values, some are marked "AA4", which does not seem to correspond to any marking scheme I have been able to find. Any idea if they *are* capacitors and what the values might be? Regards Rob From cclist at sydex.com Sun Dec 24 14:01:19 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:01:19 -0800 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <005701d37ceb$836269a0$8a273ce0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> <005701d37ceb$836269a0$8a273ce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 12/24/2017 11:15 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I think the orange components are capacitors (they are taller than the browner ones), but their markings don't seem to hint at the values, some are marked "AA4", which does not seem to correspond to any marking scheme I have been able to find. Any idea if they *are* capacitors and what the values might be? My guess is capacitors also. This "SMD Code Book" should be of some value: http://www.sphere.bc.ca/download/smd-codebook.pdf --Chuck From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Dec 24 14:04:37 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:04:37 -0800 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On 2017-Dec-24, at 10:27 AM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > I am continuing work to reverse engineer the schematic for my H7826 PSU. I > have removed one of the daughter cards in order to draw its schematic, but I > can't identify some of the surface mount components on it. I have posted a > picture of it here: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/50-19530.jpg > > The ones I can't identify are: > > 1. The component with two wide pins that looks like an IC > approximately in the middle of the board. It is marked M106 (or it might be > AA106) and 91813 underneath. I think it may be a resistor, but I am not > sure. > > 2. Just to the right of this is another much thinner two-pin component > which is black on top with a kind of white notch. I have no idea at all what > this is. > > 3. The three 3-pin black components to the left of the first > component. Two of them are marked "2T L" (or is that "ZT L"?), one appears > to be marked "2X I" (letter "ih", not letter "el"). I guess they are > transistors, but they may not be of course, and I don't know their pinout. > > > > Any help with identifying what these are would be very helpful. SMD codes are a mess as the same code is often used by different manufacturers for different devices. Resolving them is often an effort working between the multiple code possibilities, what makes electrical sense after reverse engineering the circuit topology, and ohmmeter measurements of the device. 2: Try measuring the resistance, if it's a low resistance perhaps a fuse as Chuck suggested, but considering the precision reference on the board, if it's a higher resistance perhaps a precision-trimmed resistor. 3: As per Chuck's suggestion likely bipolar transistors, and probably: 2T: PNP 2X: NPN with pinout (hopefully this renders unambiguously): C B E Try drawing it out presuming the above and then assess whether it makes sense electrically for polarity, current flow and control. From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sun Dec 24 14:23:28 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 12:23:28 -0800 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> <005701d37ceb$836269a0$8a273ce0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <1C8737B7-1345-46EF-9EDC-DC72458C4ABA@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-24, at 12:01 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/24/2017 11:15 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > >> I think the orange components are capacitors (they are taller than the browner ones), but their markings don't seem to hint at the values, some are marked "AA4", which does not seem to correspond to any marking scheme I have been able to find. Any idea if they *are* capacitors and what the values might be? > > My guess is capacitors also. Noting they are paralleling resistors, they're probably just noise/AC bypass, on the order of 0.01 uF, and not overly consequential to understanding the basic circuit. Again, one can draw it out with the above presumption and then assess whether it makes sense or for alternative functions. > This "SMD Code Book" should be of some value: > > http://www.sphere.bc.ca/download/smd-codebook.pdf > > --Chuck From kevenm at 3kranger.com Sun Dec 24 11:58:39 2017 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:58:39 -0700 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> <8914496B-E983-4F95-81D5-43D8B456766B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <735CD9499598442AB54458A3DA50887D@ranger1> Maybe this got missed. HP16C - PC software http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curious Marc via cctech" To: ; Sent: Sat 23 Dec 2017 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > Thanks very much! I am going to install this one. But I was looking more > specifically for a 16C on the PC. Anyone knows? > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of > "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: "js at cimmeri.com" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Date: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:18 PM > To: , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > > > > On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good > demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has > a bug. > > > > Marc > > > > http://hp15c.com/ > > > > > > > > > > From kevenm at 3kranger.com Sun Dec 24 11:58:39 2017 From: kevenm at 3kranger.com (Keven Miller(3k)) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 10:58:39 -0700 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> <8914496B-E983-4F95-81D5-43D8B456766B@gmail.com> Message-ID: <735CD9499598442AB54458A3DA50887D@ranger1> Maybe this got missed. HP16C - PC software http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curious Marc via cctech" To: ; Sent: Sat 23 Dec 2017 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > Thanks very much! I am going to install this one. But I was looking more > specifically for a 16C on the PC. Anyone knows? > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of > "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: "js at cimmeri.com" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Date: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:18 PM > To: , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > > > > On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good > demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has > a bug. > > > > Marc > > > > http://hp15c.com/ > > > > > > > > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 14:49:11 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 15:49:11 -0500 Subject: SM EVM A131-10 advice In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 24, 2017 at 10:58 AM, Greg Smith via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi, I'm brand new to vintage computing and would love any advice. I'm > thinking of putting together a SM EVM A131-10 and would appreciate any > advice/knowledge on the unit.? > Learn to read Russian? That's a Soviet-era computer correct? There are a few here that might be able to help. BIll From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 24 15:00:15 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 24 Dec 2017 21:00:15 -0000 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <1C8737B7-1345-46EF-9EDC-DC72458C4ABA@shaw.ca> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> <570fde99-0c5e-c5cf-d17f-09d4f8bda567@sydex.com> <005701d37ceb$836269a0$8a273ce0$@ntlworld.com> <1C8737B7-1345-46EF-9EDC-DC72458C4ABA@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <005d01d37cfa$32afb300$980f1900$@ntlworld.com> > > > > My guess is capacitors also. > > > Noting they are paralleling resistors, they're probably just noise/AC bypass, on > the order of 0.01 uF, and not overly consequential to understanding the basic > circuit. > > Again, one can draw it out with the above presumption and then assess > whether it makes sense or for alternative functions. > > > > This "SMD Code Book" should be of some value: > > > > http://www.sphere.bc.ca/download/smd-codebook.pdf > > I am indeed drawing it out. Whether I have drawn it logically or not I am not sure. I will check it with reference to the main input stage of the PSU, where this board has come from. Could the reference be associated with the input voltage auto-sensing? Or is this overly elaborate for that purpose? That unmarked flat part does appear to have some resistance, about 390ohms as measured in circuit, so probably the precision trimmed resistor you suggest. Regards Rob From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Sun Dec 24 16:07:10 2017 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 09:07:10 +1100 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <722AE629-4FE6-4EE0-ADE9-5EAAA7382138@gmail.com> If you could wait, getting one of those ?unknown component testers? would help you! David Collins > On 25 Dec 2017, at 5:27 am, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > I am continuing work to reverse engineer the schematic for my H7826 PSU. I > have removed one of the daughter cards in order to draw its schematic, but I > can't identify some of the surface mount components on it. I have posted a > picture of it here: > https://rjarratt.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/50-19530.jpg > > > > The ones I can't identify are: > > > > 1. The component with two wide pins that looks like an IC > approximately in the middle of the board. It is marked M106 (or it might be > AA106) and 91813 underneath. I think it may be a resistor, but I am not > sure. > > 2. Just to the right of this is another much thinner two-pin component > which is black on top with a kind of white notch. I have no idea at all what > this is. > > 3. The three 3-pin black components to the left of the first > component. Two of them are marked "2T L" (or is that "ZT L"?), one appears > to be marked "2X I" (letter "ih", not letter "el"). I guess they are > transistors, but they may not be of course, and I don't know their pinout. > > > > Any help with identifying what these are would be very helpful. > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 24 18:04:39 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 00:04:39 -0000 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: <722AE629-4FE6-4EE0-ADE9-5EAAA7382138@gmail.com> References: <004e01d37ce4$dbb227f0$931677d0$@ntlworld.com> <722AE629-4FE6-4EE0-ADE9-5EAAA7382138@gmail.com> Message-ID: <006301d37d13$f541d7e0$dfc587a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: David Collins [mailto:davidkcollins2 at gmail.com] > Sent: 24 December 2017 22:07 > To: rob at jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt ; General > Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Help Identifying Components > > If you could wait, getting one of those ?unknown component testers? would help > you! > I have a fairly simple one actually, a Peak Atlas DCA55, but I would prefer to identify components without desoldering. If anyone would like to recommend a good tester that doesn't cost too much I would consider getting a better one. Regards Rob From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 14:07:38 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 21:07:38 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, while I can confirm that the bigger black with two pins is a diode, I'm not sure what kind of diode it is, as it could be bipolar, Schottky or Zener. About the smaller black components with three pins, they could be transistor or diodes (single or double, with common cathode, common anode or series). I will try to find a correspondence for the markings, but symbols are someone strange, so a clear macro picture would be better... Andrea From shadoooo at gmail.com Mon Dec 25 14:36:40 2017 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 21:36:40 +0100 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Further analysis: A106 =STTA106/U 2X =MMBT4401 2T =MMBT4403 Good luck! Andrea From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Dec 25 17:09:31 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2017 23:09:31 -0000 Subject: Help Identifying Components In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <007701d37dd5$6c0a8090$441f81b0$@ntlworld.com> Thanks for the analysis, I have updated my schematic. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of shadoooo > via cctalk > Sent: 25 December 2017 20:37 > To: cctalk > Subject: RE: Help Identifying Components > > Further analysis: > > A106 =STTA106/U > 2X =MMBT4401 > 2T =MMBT4403 > > Good luck! > Andrea From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 05:25:44 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 12:25:44 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2017-12-24 13:09 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa via cctalk : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > Unfortunately I am not having any lutfisk this year. The rest of the > > family is not very fond of it. > > I"m glad to see there are _some_ non-crazy people there! :-) > > Anway, I can way top that - the tradition Bermudian Christmas dish is > cassava > pie: make that wrong (starting with raw cassava root), and it will _kill_ > you! :-) > > (Cassava root contains a cyanide precursor. That's what cassava root is > banned for human consumption in Japan. Somewhat ironic, the land of 'fugu' > banning it! :-) > After too much christmas food I spent some more time in the garage fixing the VT50/Vt52. The tip from Josh about the PROM socket was a good one. Replacing those together with the two ITT made 7400 chips I already replaced there were nice click sound when pressing the keys on the keyboard. Setting the terminal mode to OFF-line so that it loop-backed the serial signal gave a some kind of pattern on the video signal. But was it an OK signal or were there any more problems in the data path? Hard to tell without reassembling the entire terminal. But if the there actually are more faults in there I had to disassemble it again, fix and repeat. Instead I came up with a small circuit (well stole actually from the VT100 schematics) that generated a composite video signal from the TTL signals generated by the VT52 and feed it into an old Philips CM8533 monitor. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1nMq_N8tOcIauRmfHsVKMUJ_AUymoFiu7 Yes! All the logic seems to work just fine. So now I can quite confidently reassemble the thing and test the last step. HV generation, Horizontal deflection and CRT. Since the terminal appears to work I also dumped the firmware out of the four bipolar PROMs. http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/124A9.HEX http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/125A9.HEX http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/126A9.HEX http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/127A9.HEX @Fritz: You don't need to get a dump of the PROMs in your terminal. I think the ones I have is in pretty good shape. > > Noel > BTW. Comparing the VT52 and the HP2640 I worked on previously is like comparing a Skoda with a Mercedes or something. Single layer circuit board made of some cheap material (pertinax?) versus double sided gold plated boards. Very simple quite hardwired architecture versus generic microprocessor based design with a back plane bus. Was it just that DEC wanted to be as cheap as possible? The predecessor VT05 had four standard quad sized boards in a small backplane. /Mattis From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Dec 26 12:30:20 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: <34db7746-cb45-dfcc-60e8-04633c51bb1a@sydex.com> References: <681640919.180304.1513397381204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <681640919.180304.1513397381204@mail.yahoo.com> <34db7746-cb45-dfcc-60e8-04633c51bb1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 2017-12-15 22:35, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Hello Chuck, I started with the stm32f407 a while ago, but gave up, the support wasn't there than. > I've lately been doing the data transfer stuff using STM32F407 > development boards. Cheap ($12 shipped), with a 168MHz ARM CPU and > 84Mhz peripheral clocks with multichannel DMA to 192K RAM. Lots of fast > 5V tolerant GPIO. $12 development boards? Which ones do you use? > In my case, I use the SDIO facility (4 wire) to an SDHC, with Chan's > FATFS filesystem code. Do all your imaging to SDHC (a 16 or 32GB card > should image a lot of RL02s) and then read the card on a PC platform. > > Simple, fast and cheap. If you need UARTs, they're on the chip as well > and can run stupid-fast. Do you use gcc, or the eval tools from STM? Thanks, emanuel From cclist at sydex.com Tue Dec 26 13:22:37 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 11:22:37 -0800 Subject: RL02 to PC image In-Reply-To: References: <681640919.180304.1513397381204.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <681640919.180304.1513397381204@mail.yahoo.com> <34db7746-cb45-dfcc-60e8-04633c51bb1a@sydex.com> Message-ID: <33a3106c-bca5-3594-0997-4a8ab89abd93@sydex.com> On 12/26/2017 10:30 AM, emanuel stiebler via cctalk wrote: > $12 development boards? Which ones do you use? I use the STM32_F4VE, and get it through AliExpress: http://wiki.stm32duino.com/index.php?title=STM32F407 > Do you use gcc, or the eval tools? from STM? gcc under Linux. I'm old-fashioned, so I write my own makefiles. Pair one up with a little ESP8266 module driving the serial port and it's a really sweet setup. --Chuck From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Dec 26 15:25:43 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 13:25:43 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <62C24E9B-626B-49B6-9F98-AB5AABA6CAC3@fritzm.org> > On Dec 26, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > ? Instead I came up with a small > circuit (well stole actually from the VT100 schematics) that generated a > composite video signal from the TTL signals generated by the VT52? Oh ? this is a cool idea! Will keep in the bag of tricks if necessary for future work on the VT52. > @Fritz: You don't need to get a dump of the PROMs in your terminal. I think > the ones I have is in pretty good shape. You beat me to it! I think I will still upgrade my PROM sockets over this holiday break, and will just go ahead and dump the PROMs while I?m at it since I?ll have them out anyway. Mine are labeled the same as the ones you listed. cheers, ?FritzM. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Dec 26 16:22:07 2017 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 23:22:07 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <62C24E9B-626B-49B6-9F98-AB5AABA6CAC3@fritzm.org> References: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62C24E9B-626B-49B6-9F98-AB5AABA6CAC3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: 2017-12-26 22:25 GMT+01:00 Fritz Mueller via cctalk : > > On Dec 26, 2017, at 3:25 AM, Mattis Lind via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > ? Instead I came up with a small > > circuit (well stole actually from the VT100 schematics) that generated a > > composite video signal from the TTL signals generated by the VT52? > > Oh ? this is a cool idea! Will keep in the bag of tricks if necessary for > future work on the VT52. > > > @Fritz: You don't need to get a dump of the PROMs in your terminal. I > think > > the ones I have is in pretty good shape. > > You beat me to it! I think I will still upgrade my PROM sockets over this > holiday break, and will just go ahead and dump the PROMs while I?m at it > since I?ll have them out anyway. Mine are labeled the same as the ones you > listed. > Good idea! It is always good to check so that they match in case I got the dump wrong. Before putting everything together I also dumped the chargen ROM board: http://storage.datormuseum.se/u/96935524/Datormusuem/VT52/23002B4.HEX Since it is dumped at the outputs of the board it is AFTER the set of inverting 7404s used on the chargen board. /Mattis > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Dec 26 17:52:12 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 15:52:12 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <20171224120956.D704E18C079@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <62C24E9B-626B-49B6-9F98-AB5AABA6CAC3@fritzm.org> Message-ID: On Dec 26, 2017, at 2:22 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Before putting everything together I also dumped the chargen ROM board? Ah, yes ? I did this with my own VT52 last xmas break! I breadboarded a little scanner for that task because my chargen ROM was not socketed, and I didn?t want to risk damaging it by unsoldering it from the board: http://fritzm.github.io/vt52.html https://github.com/fritzm/vt52 It?s a pretty cool and funky little font, and since I spent a lot of time in front of VT52s back in the day it makes me nostalgic. I hope someday somebody with decent font-smithing skills will use the data to make a usable console font; my experiments with font creation tools were not a great success and I came to the conclusion that there is a lot I don?t know about fonts which is necessary in order to make them render and scale well and be generally usable on modern operating systems... cheers, ?FritzM. From fritzm at fritzm.org Tue Dec 26 18:05:31 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Tue, 26 Dec 2017 16:05:31 -0800 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern Message-ID: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> I have been able to sysgen an RT-11 XM monitor with the idle loop light pattern enabled, and install and boot it on my PDP-11/45. Here?s a video of the idle lights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycADKwgnLpE I built the latest simh and tu58em from source on my MacBook, then was able to do the sysgen under simh, copy the resulting binaries onto a TU58 image using simh?s TDC device, then use tu58em to copy the binaries over onto my working RT-11 4.00 distribution RK05 pack. It was pretty fun to get all this working ? I had never seen RT-11's console light pattern before! ?FritzM. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 10:03:01 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:03:01 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> References: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> Message-ID: Do you have an octal or asm listing for the part of the code with the migrating bar effect? This would be a good practice / test for me to try on my RT 11 system. Merry Christmas Bill On Tue, Dec 26, 2017 at 7:05 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have been able to sysgen an RT-11 XM monitor with the idle loop light > pattern enabled, and install and boot it on my PDP-11/45. Here?s a video > of the idle lights: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycADKwgnLpE > > I built the latest simh and tu58em from source on my MacBook, then was > able to do the sysgen under simh, copy the resulting binaries onto a TU58 > image using simh?s TDC device, then use tu58em to copy the binaries over > onto my working RT-11 4.00 distribution RK05 pack. > > It was pretty fun to get all this working ? I had never seen RT-11's > console light pattern before! > > ?FritzM. > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Dec 27 10:23:07 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:23:07 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: References: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> Message-ID: <38950A4F-5B2C-43B9-9203-19883AE9067B@comcast.net> It's been a standard feature of RT-11 FB since it first came out (in V2). You need to set the select switch to display the "Display" register (unlike most other OS idle patterns which rely on the data path display showing R0 when at a WAIT instruction. Here's what it looked like in V2.0 rmonfb.mac: ; "A SOURCE OF INNOCENT MERRIMENT!" ; - W.S. GILBERT, "MIKADO" ; "DID NOTHING IN PARTICULAR, AND DID IT VERY WELL" ; - W.S. GILBERT, "IOLANTHE" ; "TO BE IDLE IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THE BUSY" ; - SAMUEL JOHNSON, "THE IDLER" 10$: DEC (PC)+ ;THE RT-11 LIGHTS ROUTINE! 20$: 1 BNE 14$ ;NOT TOO OFTEN ADD #512.,20$ ;RESET COUNT, CLEAR CARRY 16$: ROL 13$ ;JUGGLE THE LIGHTS BNE 11$ ;NOT CLEAR YET COM 13$ ;TURN ON LIGHTS, SET CARRY 11$: BCC 12$ ;NOTHING FELL OFF, KEEP MOVING ADD #100,16$ ;REVERSE DIRECTION BIC #200,16$ ;ROL/ROR FLIP 12$: MOV (PC)+,@(PC)+ ;PUT IN LIGHTS 13$: .WORD 0,SR 14$: MOVB #MXJNUM/2+200,INTACT ;DO A COMPLETE SCAN EXUSLK: BR EXUSER ;BACK INTO LOOKFOR LOOP paul > On Dec 27, 2017, at 11:03 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > Do you have an octal or asm listing for the part of the code with the > migrating bar effect? This would be a good practice / test for me to try > on my RT 11 system. Merry Christmas > Bill From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 12:22:10 2017 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 11:22:10 -0700 Subject: tumble tiff to pdf converter In-Reply-To: References: <00e92de2-f4d7-68eb-4ddc-bfd0bd8a75fd@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 3:30 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > Ok, I see, whoever changed tumble as found on github forgot to change all > version numbers, to update the README and many things more :-( > I can't find anywhere in the github repo that the version number was not updated to 0.35. (Just now updated to 0.36.) But anyway, it compiles happily with two modifications in tumble_pbm.c: > - add the following line in front of the first include statement: > #define HAVE_BOOL > - change the following line from > #include > to > #include > I'm happy to accept pull requests. The HAVE_BOOL would probably be fine, but I'm not going to change the include as it would then fail to build on Fedora and RHEL. From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Dec 27 19:03:08 2017 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 17:03:08 -0800 Subject: Lisa Source Code Message-ID: <63045D5A-AB71-432E-B6F0-4809438420D9@shiresoft.com> Hi, I don?t know if I missed the announcement on this list but I just saw this article: https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/ It features quotes from our own Al Kassow. ;-) Way to go Al!!! TTFN - Guy From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Dec 27 19:21:16 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 20:21:16 -0500 Subject: Lisa Source Code Message-ID: <63cfa8.3439915f.4775a10c@aol.com> pretty neat... what format material was it stored on!? Ed# In a message dated 12/27/2017 6:03:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: Hi, I don?t know if I missed the announcement on this list but I just saw this article: https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/ It features quotes from our own Al Kassow. ;-) Way to go Al!!! TTFN - Guy From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Dec 27 19:23:38 2017 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 20:23:38 -0500 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <63cfa8.3439915f.4775a10c@aol.com> References: <63cfa8.3439915f.4775a10c@aol.com> Message-ID: <1bbd38cd-a27a-e7b4-9617-493f6cf166b9@telegraphics.com.au> On 2017-12-27 8:21 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > pretty neat... what format material was it stored on!? > Ed# > Reliably informed it was stone tablets .. took several Top Men quite a few years to figure out the carved alphabet though --T > > In a message dated 12/27/2017 6:03:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Hi, > > I don?t know if I missed the announcement on this list but I just saw this > article: > https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/ > > It features quotes from our own Al Kassow. ;-) Way to go Al!!! > > TTFN - Guy > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 19:42:14 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 17:42:14 -0800 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <735CD9499598442AB54458A3DA50887D@ranger1> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> <8914496B-E983-4F95-81D5-43D8B456766B@gmail.com> <735CD9499598442AB54458A3 DA50887D@ranger1> Message-ID: <0f3101d37f7d$16f3eac0$44dbc040$@gmail.com> Thanks. This is one ugly duckling. I know why I didn't keep it! But it seems to be functional. Stick to the 15C mentioned before if you don't need the programmer's features. Marc -----Original Message----- From: Keven Miller(3k) [mailto:kevenm at 3kranger.com] Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:59 AM To: Curious Marc; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts; js at cimmeri.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! Maybe this got missed. HP16C - PC software http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curious Marc via cctech" To: ; Sent: Sat 23 Dec 2017 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > Thanks very much! I am going to install this one. But I was looking more > specifically for a 16C on the PC. Anyone knows? > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of > "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: "js at cimmeri.com" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Date: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:18 PM > To: , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > > > > On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good > demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has > a bug. > > > > Marc > > > > http://hp15c.com/ > > > > > > > > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Dec 27 19:42:14 2017 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Wed, 27 Dec 2017 17:42:14 -0800 Subject: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! In-Reply-To: <735CD9499598442AB54458A3DA50887D@ranger1> References: <53f6aea4-b47c-ba84-0570-002ec4f6f66e@sydex.com> <5d1ead17-a384-079d-efe3-07e577c89c52@sydex.com> <49633388-b890-4f21-a3ef-99073e6d9afc@sydex.com> <4b0f551a-d159-57b3-60d3-b4fe43ca8f38@sydex.com> <5caf2ad3-e64e-0004-309c-64817d169288@sydex.com> <5101e0a6-41a5-88eb-7a61-ccb2b51dcac4@gmail.com> <31e0c909-5bef-d416-8ae4-62bf8076fd73@sydex.com> <6488a83a-dade-2cc2-5a62-125923b08c3d@sydex.com> <5e0ceb74-55ce-8e32-6912-1be770f54b26@gmail.com> <3e7fff36-51b9-c985-a20d-8a155455da94@sydex.com> <202c52c1-57cc-ed2d-5379-e088cf52fd13@gmail.com> <5A3F38BB.2010501@cimmeri.com> <8914496B-E983-4F95-81D5-43D8B456766B@gmail.com> <735CD9499598442AB54458A3 DA50887D@ranger1> Message-ID: <0f3101d37f7d$16f3eac0$44dbc040$@gmail.com> Thanks. This is one ugly duckling. I know why I didn't keep it! But it seems to be functional. Stick to the 15C mentioned before if you don't need the programmer's features. Marc -----Original Message----- From: Keven Miller(3k) [mailto:kevenm at 3kranger.com] Sent: Sunday, December 24, 2017 9:59 AM To: Curious Marc; General Discussion: On-Topic Posts; js at cimmeri.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! Maybe this got missed. HP16C - PC software http://www.wrpn.emmet-gray.com/ Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Curious Marc via cctech" To: ; Sent: Sat 23 Dec 2017 10:27 PM Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > Thanks very much! I am going to install this one. But I was looking more > specifically for a 16C on the PC. Anyone knows? > > Marc > > > > From: cctalk on behalf of > "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Reply-To: "js at cimmeri.com" , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > > Date: Saturday, December 23, 2017 at 9:18 PM > To: , "cctalk at classiccmp.org" > Subject: Re: Argh--my old faithful HP16C is failing! > > > > On 12/24/2017 12:14 AM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: > > I did not find a good emulation on the PC. There is one that had a good > demo but costs $20, and I was never able to buy it, their buying site has > a bug. > > > > Marc > > > > http://hp15c.com/ > > > > > > > > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Wed Dec 27 20:14:14 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (rich.cini at verizon.net) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 02:14:14 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <1bbd38cd-a27a-e7b4-9617-493f6cf166b9@telegraphics.com.au> References: <63cfa8.3439915f.4775a10c@aol.com> <1bbd38cd-a27a-e7b4-9617-493f6cf166b9@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <50535CCF801FC1A0.C459AF9A-D7A6-4C4A-99BA-217126342271@mail.outlook.com> That is really awesome. Not being deep into the Lisa platform, I wonder if the sources to the Toolbox ROM (or equivalent) was also recovered and how different the sources are to those already out there for the original Mac. Get Outlook for iOS On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 8:24 PM -0500, "Toby Thain via cctalk" wrote: On 2017-12-27 8:21 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > pretty neat... what format material was it stored on!? > Ed# > Reliably informed it was stone tablets .. took several Top Men quite a few years to figure out the carved alphabet though --T > > In a message dated 12/27/2017 6:03:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: > > Hi, > > I don?t know if I missed the announcement on this list but I just saw this > article: > https://9to5mac.com/2017/12/27/apple-lisa-source-code-to-be-released/ > > It features quotes from our own Al Kassow. ;-) Way to go Al!!! > > TTFN - Guy > > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Dec 27 22:35:44 2017 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 04:35:44 +0000 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there Message-ID: Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction to enhance your machine? I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); I read all of Donnamaies pages, and planing to hook up, breadboard the eval kit, perhaps reproduce the PCB if you guys are interested. What about the coding tools? ADASM? Looks long gone, how do you do microcode today? If I forget the soldering iron, can anyone show me an example on a Xilinx board, ISE, Vivado that uses the original AMD 2900 architecture? http://www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/AMD_2900_ED2900A.html Donnamaie E. White - AMD 2900 Family, Bit-Slice; Am2900 ... www.donnamaie.com Lecture Monograph updated. The AMD 2900 Family (Am2900) Bit-Slice and other devices were supported by a number of high-level application notes. (Generated by the AMD ... From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Thu Dec 28 01:05:45 2017 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:05:45 +0100 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <887905ab-85b2-082c-4a14-f26433b4d7b9@bluewin.ch> On 28.12.2017 05:35, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): > > > What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction to enhance your machine? > I changed the microcode in my 2901-based ETH Lilith such that it can use an ATA-harddisk instead of the unobtainium SD-120 Mididisk. It works in my Lilith emulator Emulith, sadly the real Lilith is still down with other issues so it has not been tested with the real hardware. > > What about the coding tools? ADASM? Looks long gone, how do you do microcode today? > As is to be expected the Lilith came with its own modula-2 based coding tool. I wipped up another one in C. Note that this is a lilith-microcode assembler, as it covers more than just the 2901. I would expect this to be the case for other machines as well. All tools & microcode and emulators are on my FTP site Jos From holm at freibergnet.de Thu Dec 28 02:43:01 2017 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 09:43:01 +0100 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171228084301.GB89390@beast.freibergnet.de> Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): > > > What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction to enhance your machine? > > > I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); > > > I read all of Donnamaies pages, and planing to hook up, breadboard the eval kit, perhaps reproduce the PCB if you guys are interested. > > > What about the coding tools? ADASM? Looks long gone, how do you do microcode today? > > > If I forget the soldering iron, can anyone show me an example on a Xilinx board, ISE, Vivado that uses the original AMD 2900 architecture? > > > http://www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/AMD_2900_ED2900A.html > > Donnamaie E. White - AMD 2900 Family, Bit-Slice; Am2900 ... > www.donnamaie.com > Lecture Monograph updated. The AMD 2900 Family (Am2900) Bit-Slice and other devices were supported by a number of high-level application notes. (Generated by the AMD ... > > The Micorocode Assembler should be here: $ ls am290x-simulator-1.01-simulator.exe am290x-Software-AMDOS32K.zip am290x-Software-AMDOS1.zip am290x-Software-AMDOS4.zip am290x-Software-AMDOS2.zip am290x-Software-AMDOS5.zip am290x-Software-AMDOS3.zip $ unzip -l am290x-Software-AMDOS1.zip Archive: am290x-Software-AMDOS1.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 12-07-12 04:00 AMDOS1/ 3072 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/AMDOS.SYS 5632 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/AMUSRTTY.MAC 768 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/CHECKSUM.DAT 768 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/CHKSUM.DAT 1280 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/CPYDSK.CPM 3840 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/CREF.CPM 4864 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/DDT.CPM 1792 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/DISPL.CPM 3328 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/DUMP.CPM 6656 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/ED.CPM 7424 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/FILCOM.CPM 2816 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/FORMAT.CPM 4736 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/LIB.CPM 8960 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/LINK.CPM 18304 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/MAC.CPM 7424 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/PIP.CPM 4736 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/PLPROG.CPM 3712 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/PPROG.CPM 36352 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/PREHEAT.CPM 5248 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/STAT.CPM 1280 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/SUBMIT.CPM 1024 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/SYSGEN.CPM 512 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS1/VFU.CPM 768 12-07-12 04:07 AMDOS1/XSUB.CPM $ unzip -l am290x-Software-AMDOS2.zip Archive: am290x-Software-AMDOS2.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 12-07-12 04:00 AMDOS2/ 2432 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS2/AFT.CPM 24064 12-07-12 04:08 AMDOS2/AMDHST.C 48384 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS2/AMDHST.FOR 384 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS2/CHKSUM.DAT 3328 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS2/FILEXF6.CPM 3328 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS2/FILEXF96.CPM 10880 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS2/HEX2AMD.CPM $ unzip -l am290x-Software-AMDOS3.zip Archive: am290x-Software-AMDOS3.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 12-07-12 04:00 AMDOS3/ 8960 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/AM2900.LIB 11008 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/AMDASM.CPM 13184 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/AMMAP.CPM 17664 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/AMPROM.CPM 9472 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/AMSCRM.CPM 256 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/ASMDEMO.SUB 512 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/CHKSUM.DAT 3200 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/DDT29.CPM 384 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/DDTDEMO.SUB 128 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS3/JUMP.DEF 256 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/JUMP.SRC 2944 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS3/LBPM.CPM 1664 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/PFORMAT.CPM 2048 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS3/RBPM.CPM 2304 12-07-12 04:09 AMDOS3/SBPM.CPM 3072 12-07-12 04:10 AMDOS3/VBPM.CPM $ unzip -l am290x-Software-AMDOS4.zip Archive: am290x-Software-AMDOS4.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 12-07-12 04:00 AMDOS4/ 9600 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS4/AM29203.SRC 25216 12-07-12 04:11 AMDOS4/AM29CPU.DEF 384 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS4/CHKSUM.DAT 27264 12-07-12 04:11 AMDOS4/CONTROLR.DEF 4480 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS4/CONTROLR.SRC 15872 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS4/DISK.DOC 21376 12-07-12 04:11 AMDOS4/DISKCTLR.DEF 32384 12-07-12 04:11 AMDOS4/DISKCTLR.SRC $ unzip -l am290x-Software-AMDOS5.zip Archive: am290x-Software-AMDOS5.zip Length Date Time Name -------- ---- ---- ---- 0 12-07-12 04:00 AMDOS5/ 6144 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/CATALOG.DM8 512 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/CHKSUM.DAT 53760 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/DM8.CPM 384 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/GROUPS.DM8 3200 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNEBSP.OVL 3328 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNED29.OVL 2944 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS5/MNESCR.OVL 3200 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNESST.OVL 3200 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNETRC.OVL 3328 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNETRG.OVL 3200 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/MNEWAVE.OVL 768 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/TESTLIST.DM8 52480 12-07-12 04:12 AMDOS5/TRACE29.CPM 11136 12-07-12 04:13 AMDOS5/TRCDIAG.REL $ ..but this is CP/M Software and there are other opensource Metaassemblers out there that don't need a amulated CP/M. Since some years I'm collecting chips and software around the AM2901 and wanted to build something out of them..never had enough time. I'm interesetd in a demo board. The copyright Status of the Assembler is unclear, that's the cause for not replaying to cctalk. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From radioengr at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 03:09:46 2017 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 02:09:46 -0700 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9fa6439b-1c46-3fa6-3c4f-989963a22043@gmail.com> On 12/27/2017 9:35 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus > with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): > > > What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your > architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction > to enhance your machine? > > > I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in > the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); > > > I read all of Donnamaies pages, and planing to hook up, breadboard > the eval kit, perhaps reproduce the PCB if you guys are interested. > > > What about the coding tools? ADASM? Looks long gone, how do you do > microcode today? > > > If I forget the soldering iron, can anyone show me an example on a > Xilinx board, ISE, Vivado that uses the original AMD 2900 > architecture? > > > http://www.donnamaie.com/AMD_Vintage/AMD_2900_ED2900A.html > > Donnamaie E. White - AMD 2900 Family, Bit-Slice; Am2900 > ... > www.donnamaie.com Lecture Monograph updated. The AMD 2900 Family > (Am2900) Bit-Slice and other devices were supported by a number of > high-level application notes. (Generated by the AMD ... > The ALU of the DEC KS10 used 10x Am2901s. An example of that ALU coded in verilog is at: https://github.com/KS10FPGA/KS10FPGA/blob/master/fpga/ks10/cpu/alu.v Rob Doyle From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Dec 28 03:23:08 2017 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 10:23:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: <63045D5A-AB71-432E-B6F0-4809438420D9@shiresoft.com> References: <63045D5A-AB71-432E-B6F0-4809438420D9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: What is a "Lisa Source Code" ? The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS? Christian From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 08:33:58 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:33:58 -0600 Subject: Lisa Source Code Message-ID: <5a4500da.ad419d0a.9b859.7081@mx.google.com> Saw the announcement via slashdot also the other day.? Definitely a kudos to the CHM team! null From barythrin at gmail.com Thu Dec 28 08:37:04 2017 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:37:04 -0600 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <5a450193.ad419d0a.9b859.70b2@mx.google.com> https://groups.google.com/forum/m/#!msg/lisalist/aIo6cNu54xM/_Ck_CsmSBgAJ They may still be getting approvals, but here is the announcement implying both OS and some applications may be included. -------- Original message --------From: Christian Corti via cctalk Date: 12/28/17 3:23 AM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Lisa Source Code What is a "Lisa Source Code" ? The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS? Christian From dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net Thu Dec 28 08:37:19 2017 From: dseagrav at lunar-tokyo.net (Daniel Seagraves) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 08:37:19 -0600 Subject: Lisa Source Code In-Reply-To: References: <63045D5A-AB71-432E-B6F0-4809438420D9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Dec 28, 2017, at 3:23 AM, Christian Corti via cctalk wrote: > > What is a "Lisa Source Code" ? > The schematics? The source code for the Lisa firmware and/or Lisa OS? Whatever it is, it won?t be enough, someone will throw a fit about something being there or not there. From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 28 11:05:30 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:05:30 -0600 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A45245A.5010101@pico-systems.com> On 12/27/2017 10:35 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: Here's my 32-bit 2903 project. It was to roughly emulate an IBM 360. But, I realized there would be an IMMENSE software slog ahead to get a usable computer system. (If I had known about the Unix 360 system, I might have continued with it, but I never heard of that until much later.) http://pico-systems.com/stories/1982.html Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Dec 28 11:18:08 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:18:08 -0600 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: <887905ab-85b2-082c-4a14-f26433b4d7b9@bluewin.ch> References: <887905ab-85b2-082c-4a14-f26433b4d7b9@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <5A452750.4070600@pico-systems.com> > On 28.12.2017 05:35, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: >> What about the coding tools? ADASM? Looks long gone, how >> do you do microcode today? >> > > Oh, I first started out with an assembler macro hack, but it was insanely cumbersome, due to the limits of the macro capability of the Z-80 assembler I was using. I then wrote a micro-assembler in Pascal. It was better, but still pretty cumbersome. There's a good chance that if I actually had gotten to writing the full 360 microcode I would have come up with improvements. Here's a little test program for the old asm macro-based assembler: ;DIM LIGHT PROG FOR MICRO ASSEMBLER MACLIB UASM INIT ; DEFINE 2 CONSTANTS IN SCRATCH PAD SPONE DEFCON 1 SP4096 DEFCON 4096 ; END OF CONSTANTS DIM REGS GPR0,GPR0,GPR0 ;CLEAR GPR0 FUNC ZERO CTRL CONT GEN REGS ACONST,GPR1,GPR1 ;COPY SPONE TO GPR1 DEST PASSWRT FUNC APLUSCY CONST SPONE CTRL CONT GEN REGS ACONST,GPR3,GPR3 ;COPY SP4096 TO GPR3 DEST PASSWRT FUNC APLUSCY CONST SP4096 CTRL CONT GEN BIGLP REGS GPR0,GPR0,GPR0 ;INC GPR0, MOVE TO COUNTER DEST PASSWRT FUNC APLUSCY CY ONE CTRL LDRCONT NA 0,I ;CBUS => CTR GEN HILOOP REGS GPR2,GPR2,GPR2 ;ALL ONES TO CBUS DEST PASSWRT FUNC ALLONE CTRL REPLNA NA HILOOP The GEN command generates one micro-instruction word from all the keywords above it. Here's what my 2nd gen Pascal micro-assembler code looked like : CODE ; TITLE muldiv ;This program does multiply and divide on 2903/2904 32 bit CPU ; UNSIGNED MULTIPLY 32 X 32 => 64 ; CLEAR R0 FOR MS PRODUCT ; MULTIPLICAND IN R1, MULTIPLIER IN R2 ; PRODUCT IN R0 (MS) AND R1 (LS) ORG 0 UMULT R=GPR0,GPR0,GPR0,F=ZERO,D=W ;CLEAR GPR0 R=GPR2,GPR2,GPR2,D=LDQ&W,F=A+CY,Q=LDRCONT,N=31 ;mOVE MPLIER TO Q REG ;#MPLY CYCLES -1 => CTR UMLP R=GPR1,GPR0,GPR0,D=MPYUSG,F=SPEC,Q=REPLNA,N=UMLP ;***** SHFT USGMPY R=GPR1,GPR1,GPR1,F=Q+CY,D=W ;COPY LS PROD IN Q TO R1 UWAIT D=PASS,F=ZERO,Q=JUMP,N=UWAIT ;hang for user to check result ; END OF UNSIGNED MULTIPLY ; ; ; SIGNED MULTIPLY 32 X 32 => 64 ; CLEAR R0 FOR MS PRODUCT ; MULTIPLICAND IN R1, MULTIPLIER IN R2 ; PRODUCT IN R0 (MS) AND R1 (LS) SMULT r=GPR0,GPR0,GPR0,F=ZERO,D=W ;CLEAR GPR0 r=GPR2,GPR2,GPR2,D=LDQ&W,F=A+CY,Q=LDRCONT,N=30 ;mOVE MPLIER TO Q REG ;#MPLY CYCLES -2 => CTR SMLP r=GPR1,GPR0,GPR0,D=MPY2CM,F=SPEC,Q=REPLNA,N=SMLP ;2S COMPL MPY ;***** SHFT MPY2CM r=GPR1,GPR0,GPR0,D=MPY2LST,F=SPEC ;2S COMPL MPY LAST CYCLE r=GPR1,GPR1,GPR1,F=Q+CY,D=W ;COPY LS PROD IN Q TO R1 SWAIT D=PASS,F=ZERO,Q=JUMP,N=SWAIT ;hang for user to check result ; END OF UNSIGNED MULTIPLY END This tests the multiply functions on the 2903. The tab formatting got messed up pasting this here, it looked better in the original form. Jon From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Dec 28 11:53:50 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 10:53:50 -0700 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4858c11a-8da2-a790-3151-08dd8252239f@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/27/2017 9:35 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): > Well I am not one of them. 2901's seem only on epay now, so lack of parts have kept me from designing with them. A plan to work on a quick and dirty core memory like 20 bit computer from about 1975 ish. Rather than microcode I plan to use random logic with 22v10's replacing 82s100's that would be used at the time. Cycle time is about 1.25 us with a simple front panel. Ben. From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Dec 28 12:51:46 2017 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 10:51:46 -0800 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: <4858c11a-8da2-a790-3151-08dd8252239f@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4858c11a-8da2-a790-3151-08dd8252239f@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: Wirewrapped the design in the 2900 family guide sometime in the 70s it even worked. No idea what became of it On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 9:53 AM, ben via cctalk wrote: > On 12/27/2017 9:35 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > >> Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a >> NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): >> >> > Well I am not one of them. 2901's seem only on epay now, so lack of parts > have kept me from designing with them. A plan to work on a quick > and dirty core memory like 20 bit computer from about 1975 ish. > Rather than microcode I plan to use random logic with 22v10's replacing > 82s100's that would be used at the time. Cycle time is about 1.25 us > with a simple front panel. > > Ben. > > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Dec 28 13:22:33 2017 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:22:33 -0800 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: <20171228084301.GB89390@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20171228084301.GB89390@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 12/28/17 12:43 AM, Holm Tiffe via cctalk wrote: > The Micorocode Assembler should be here: http://bitsavers.org/bits/AMD/AM29 manuals http://bitsavers.org/pdf/amd/amsys29/ From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Thu Dec 28 13:44:04 2017 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 20:44:04 +0100 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <1514490244.22842.30.camel@agj.net> l?r 2017-12-23 klockan 20:12 -0800 skrev Chuck Guzis via cctalk: > On 12/23/2017 07:24 PM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > > > I?m not sure you can smell the difference between failed selenium rectifiers and lutefisk... > > It probably doesn't get interesting until you toss in a can of > surstr?mming... > > --Chuck > Surstr?mming isn't a christmas tradition. It is more like a late august,september tradition (or in summer together with the season potatoes, onion and bread.) the sale of this year surstr?mming was until 1998 legally delayed until the third thursday in august (the herring is fished in early spring april-may.) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Dec 28 13:47:03 2017 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:47:03 -0800 Subject: To the 2901 bit slicers out there In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <87621e02-d0cf-76ad-304e-ef4b35e04c80@jwsss.com> On 12/27/2017 8:35 PM, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > Since I know there's tons of PDP/11 geniuses here, and other gurus with a NOVA 4, and a Tektronix 4052 guy (I have the 4051): > > > What have you done, with microprogramming this part? In your architecture, have you changed the microcode, create an instruction to enhance your machine? > > > I would be interested in any hardware projects, stories (or even in the FPGA, I hear its a popular thing to copy); > > The Ultimate Corporation licensed the Pick system to run on Honeywell hardware (among others).? Initial implementation was on a DPS6 with WCS written for the DPS6 in a firmware extension of the DPS6 firmware that executed Pick directly.? Parts of the DPS6 instructions routines were used, as well as using a kernel written in DPS6 assembler to run the peripherals, disk tape, and serial ports. Very early a co-processor which was exclusive to Pick was designed and it was implemented with 2901 hardware.? The design for that board was a 32 bit wide arithmetic and logical system.? it had only handshakes with its host system and no I/O.? It used host memory for the pick system since the pick system is a virtual architecture. The Honeywell incarnation of the co-processor was hosted on a disk controller derived host board modified and supplied to Ultimate by Honeywell.? Another version was implemented for the PDP 11 qbus and had a custom host adapter to couple the co-processor to the host. The host in either case ran a kernel for I/O and other such tasks, as well as being the main boot processor and control in both cases. It was required that systems boot from either half inch tape or disk (once installed). The 2901 firmware was implemented with the Pick assembler which is table driven.? I don't think much of it would assemble on an AMD tool, as is the case with most Pick assemblers.? It is easy to get the pick system to do your assembler if you use the conventions of the syntax they use.? However there was generally a desire on both honeywell and dec to have all tools resident on Pick.? there were no toolchains in the released and production product that was not completely hosted on that system. Debugging in all cases was done with tools from Hilevel of Irvine. Bjorn Dahlberg, founder of Hilevel came up with a concept to integrate rom simulation and hardware simulation tools, and assembler and tools into a product, and had a very flexible tool that could accomodate most variations for such as bitslice designs needed.? Since the designer specified all but the basic 4 bit width, the number of slices coupled, the micro sequencing and other features as one might put into a microprocessor system had to be dealt with. Hilevel tools would allow you to simulate all eproms or proms in a system, and load them dynamically.? They also had a very powerful assembler / linker / loader tool that they would use to provide a working environment with a support computer attached to their rom simulator. They also would allow you to add run control to the system, to allow stepping tracing start / stop or any other controls you needed by routing signals out to the Hilevel box, and then assigning commands to control the signals. For example instead of having to flip a bunch of bits to start or step your system, you set up a macro to do something and could name it "step" or "run" or whatever.? There were comparators to allow one to do breakpoints.? Also I know of some cases where register examinations were done. I think the Ultimate projects were probably a test case for them as far as features.? Mr. Dahlberg had previously worked @ Microdata as had most of the Ultimate folks (others were Pick people), and that helped. Thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Dec 28 13:58:43 2017 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 11:58:43 -0800 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <1514490244.22842.30.camel@agj.net> References: <1C504F84-910F-4E4F-8BEE-3C8727EFE49B@fritzm.org> <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> <1514490244.22842.30.camel@agj.net> Message-ID: <4b707005-85c9-cd20-cb9a-b69737bd3e85@sydex.com> On 12/28/2017 11:44 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > Surstr?mming isn't a christmas tradition. > > It is more like a late august,september tradition (or in summer together > with the season potatoes, onion and bread.) > > the sale of this year surstr?mming was until 1998 legally delayed until > the third thursday in august (the herring is fished in early spring > april-may.) Neither are selenium rectifiers a Christmas tradition--at least not in any society that I know of. Just trying to throw a little aroma into the mix. I suppose one could also add durian for a memorably odoriferous experience. --Chuck From chrise at pobox.com Thu Dec 28 17:28:08 2017 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 17:28:08 -0600 Subject: Restoring a VT50 (VT52 actually) . In-Reply-To: <4b707005-85c9-cd20-cb9a-b69737bd3e85@sydex.com> References: <51554e24-83ac-1d25-4af3-33aa4a3d236b@gmail.com> <964112CE-E1D1-4F65-BFFE-D886A67EA056@fritzm.org> <1514062967.22842.22.camel@agj.net> <1514490244.22842.30.camel@agj.net> <4b707005-85c9-cd20-cb9a-b69737bd3e85@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20171228232808.GQ6446@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (12/28/2017 at 11:58AM -0800), Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > On 12/28/2017 11:44 AM, Stefan Skoglund via cctalk wrote: > > > Surstr?mming isn't a christmas tradition. > > > > It is more like a late august,september tradition (or in summer together > > with the season potatoes, onion and bread.) > > > > the sale of this year surstr?mming was until 1998 legally delayed until > > the third thursday in august (the herring is fished in early spring > > april-may.) > > Neither are selenium rectifiers a Christmas tradition--at least not in > any society that I know of. > > Just trying to throw a little aroma into the mix. I suppose one could > also add durian for a memorably odoriferous experience. I worked for a startup back around 2001 that liked to name their servers after various fruits. When the Compaq Itanium box arrived, I was the one that picked the hostname "durian" for it... My family has a tradition of Doppa i Grytan on Christmas Eve. I think the awesome smell of the fresh rye bread cancels out any burning rectifiers or durian fruit by a long shot ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist From fritzm at fritzm.org Thu Dec 28 18:28:07 2017 From: fritzm at fritzm.org (Fritz Mueller) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 16:28:07 -0800 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <38950A4F-5B2C-43B9-9203-19883AE9067B@comcast.net> References: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> <38950A4F-5B2C-43B9-9203-19883AE9067B@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 27, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > ; "A SOURCE OF INNOCENT MERRIMENT!" > ; - W.S. GILBERT, "MIKADO" > ; "DID NOTHING IN PARTICULAR, AND DID IT VERY WELL" > ; - W.S. GILBERT, "IOLANTHE" > ; "TO BE IDLE IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THE BUSY" > ; - SAMUEL JOHNSON, "THE IDLER" > > 10$: DEC (PC)+ ;THE RT-11 LIGHTS ROUTINE! > 20$: 1 > BNE 14$ ;NOT TOO OFTEN > ADD #512.,20$ ;RESET COUNT, CLEAR CARRY > 16$: ROL 13$ ;JUGGLE THE LIGHTS > BNE 11$ ;NOT CLEAR YET > COM 13$ ;TURN ON LIGHTS, SET CARRY > 11$: BCC 12$ ;NOTHING FELL OFF, KEEP MOVING > ADD #100,16$ ;REVERSE DIRECTION > BIC #200,16$ ;ROL/ROR FLIP > 12$: MOV (PC)+,@(PC)+ ;PUT IN LIGHTS > 13$: .WORD 0,SR > 14$: MOVB #MXJNUM/2+200,INTACT ;DO A COMPLETE SCAN > EXUSLK: BR EXUSER ;BACK INTO LOOKFOR LOOP Very cool ? thanks for the snippet, Paul! I?ve seen mention in various RT-11 manuals that the sources were made available by DEC at the time (perhaps only on fiche?) I would love to read through the V4.00 sources, if anybody knows where I could track them down? cheers, ?FritzM. From classiccmp at earthlink.net Thu Dec 28 21:57:49 2017 From: classiccmp at earthlink.net (David C. Jenner) Date: Thu, 28 Dec 2017 19:57:49 -0800 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: References: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> <38950A4F-5B2C-43B9-9203-19883AE9067B@comcast.net> Message-ID: The sources to each release were usually included with the distribution so that custom system settings could be sysgened. The sources are uncommented, however. You could implement this by finding the commented out source in the sources and regenerating the system, with the code in the appropriate place. Dave On 12/28/17 4:28 PM, Fritz Mueller via cctalk wrote: > > >> On Dec 27, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> ; "A SOURCE OF INNOCENT MERRIMENT!" >> ; - W.S. GILBERT, "MIKADO" >> ; "DID NOTHING IN PARTICULAR, AND DID IT VERY WELL" >> ; - W.S. GILBERT, "IOLANTHE" >> ; "TO BE IDLE IS THE ULTIMATE PURPOSE OF THE BUSY" >> ; - SAMUEL JOHNSON, "THE IDLER" >> >> 10$: DEC (PC)+ ;THE RT-11 LIGHTS ROUTINE! >> 20$: 1 >> BNE 14$ ;NOT TOO OFTEN >> ADD #512.,20$ ;RESET COUNT, CLEAR CARRY >> 16$: ROL 13$ ;JUGGLE THE LIGHTS >> BNE 11$ ;NOT CLEAR YET >> COM 13$ ;TURN ON LIGHTS, SET CARRY >> 11$: BCC 12$ ;NOTHING FELL OFF, KEEP MOVING >> ADD #100,16$ ;REVERSE DIRECTION >> BIC #200,16$ ;ROL/ROR FLIP >> 12$: MOV (PC)+,@(PC)+ ;PUT IN LIGHTS >> 13$: .WORD 0,SR >> 14$: MOVB #MXJNUM/2+200,INTACT ;DO A COMPLETE SCAN >> EXUSLK: BR EXUSER ;BACK INTO LOOKFOR LOOP > > Very cool ? thanks for the snippet, Paul! > > I?ve seen mention in various RT-11 manuals that the sources were made available by DEC at the time (perhaps only on fiche?) > > I would love to read through the V4.00 sources, if anybody knows where I could track them down? > > cheers, > ?FritzM. > > > > > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Dec 29 03:00:55 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:00:55 -0000 Subject: DEC Rack In Sydney Area Message-ID: <006d01d38083$89b7c6b0$9d275410$@ntlworld.com> Just in case there are Australian list members not on VCF, this may be of interest: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61284-Free-DEC-Rack-and-Tru64-manu als-NSW-North-Shore Regards Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Dec 29 08:16:13 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 09:16:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern Message-ID: <20171229141613.81D8818C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > Here's what it looked like Not having RT11, I embedded this in a small stand-alone program (which took a little work, Unix assembler being rather different :-), so I could see it (it wasn't obvious from the code what it did). Pretty clever, to get that complex a pattern out of so few instructions. Although the self-modifying code is, err.... (If anyone wants the source or .LDA, let me know, I can post/upload it.) On the Unix machine we had at MIT, I 'stole' a light pattern I'd seen somewhere else (not the code, just the visuals). The code is considerably longer, but I didn't try to bit-push it, just wrote something very straightforward to produce that pattern. Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Dec 29 10:17:51 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 08:17:51 -0800 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <20171229141613.81D8818C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171229141613.81D8818C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: (Not RT-11, PDP-11, or even DEC...) The Multics process scheduler quantum is 1/4 second; running processes are interrupted and rescheduled every 1/4 second. The idle process updates the light pattern and sleeps until the 1/4 timer runs out or an interrupt occurs. " " Idle with a flashing pattern in the lights. " " This is a convenient place to recompute tc_data$max_timer_register, " which is the product of the number of CPUs and the tuning parameter " tc_data$pre_empt_sample time. Either of these values may have " changed due to reconfiguration or tuning parameter changes, and " we don't have much else to do here, so ... ldaq flash_pattern inhibit off <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-> idle_dis: dis 0 inhibit on <+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+><+> " The following code checks to see if a connect has been delayed. " This is done by seeing if the ring alarm register is nonzero. " If it is, the connect must be reissued now. sznc pds$alarm_ring is ring alarm set? tze *+2 if not, skip connect reissue cioc scs$cow_ptrs,1* staq prds$idle_temp save flash pattern ldq tc_data$pre_empt_sample_time mpy tc_data$ncpu tze reload_flash bogus for some reason staq tc_data$max_timer_register reload_flash: ldaq prds$idle_temp alr 35 qlr 1 eax7 0,au flash pattern in X7 lxl4 tc_data$n_eligible # of eligible processes in X4 ldx5 bp|apte.term_processid idle type in X5 lxl6 tc_data$stat+2 # of ready processes in X6 tra idle_dis inhibit off <-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-><-> At the top, the initial pattern is loaded into the A and Q registers; the 'dis' is 'delay until interrupt set': idle the CPU until the count timer expires or interrupt. A few lines later, the A and Q registers are saved in prds$idle_temp. At reload_flash, the pattern is restored from prds$idle_temp into A and Q; the 'alr 35' (A Left Rotate) does a circular rotate of the A register; being 36 bits, this is equivalent to rotating it one bit to the right. The 'qlr 1' (Q Left Rotate) rotates the Q resister to the left one bit. The 'eax7 0,au' (Effective Address to X7) effectively copies the high 18 bits of A into the X7 register; as far as I can tell, this and the next few instructions are strictly diagnostic; the contents of those registers can be displayed on the maintenance panel, but unless the machine was idle, they would quickly be overwritten. Then the code branches back up to the sleep instruction. When the system is idle, the A and Q registers will hold each pattern for a 1/4 second. The initial pattern is: flash_pattern: zero -1,0 zero 0,-1 Which is 6180 assembler weirdness for putting 0777777000000 in A and 0000000777777 into Q. The rotate instructions will make the 18 one bits in the A register circulate to the right; to the left in the Q register. On the maintenance panel, the registers are displayed stacked, A above Q; because of the relative layout of the bits, this produces the illusion that the bits are rotating out of the right end of A into the left end of Q, and similarly of the other end, so the bits are traveling in a circle. The pattern can be seen starting at 1:44 in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jni7wk7bjxA -- Charles From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 29 11:39:37 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:39:37 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: References: <921DE06D-E8F2-47E9-ACAB-1DDB9F118C74@fritzm.org> <38950A4F-5B2C-43B9-9203-19883AE9067B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7DA38FFA-541A-4D1A-AB83-AA8C52BFAA57@comcast.net> Yes, RT11 (when it introduced Sysgen, which was later than V2) did so by supplying sources that had been stripped of their comments. So they were useful for sysgen but not (easily) useable for custom OS changes. DEC did offer source licenses for many of its operating systems, at extremely high prices. They also offered listings, typically on microfiche, still substantially more expensive than the binary licenses but not nearly as crazy as source. And sometimes you could get source or listings as a special deal. In college we started out with RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem (as in: roughly daily crash). As part of trying to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5 dectapes. We printed them (on our 30 cps Silent 733 terminals). I used them to learn about RSTS as a student, which got me hired by the computer center. ("I make it my habit to hire students before they become dangerous" -- Michael A. Hall, director of computer services.) I still have copies of those files. paul > On Dec 28, 2017, at 10:57 PM, David C. Jenner via cctalk wrote: > > The sources to each release were usually included with the distribution so that custom system settings could be sysgened. The sources are uncommented, however. > > You could implement this by finding the commented out source in the sources and regenerating the system, with the code in the appropriate place. > > Dave From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Dec 29 11:45:15 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 29 Dec 2017 12:45:15 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <20171229141613.81D8818C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171229141613.81D8818C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 29, 2017, at 9:16 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> Here's what it looked like > > Not having RT11, I embedded this in a small stand-alone program (which took a > little work, Unix assembler being rather different :-), so I could see it (it > wasn't obvious from the code what it did). > > Pretty clever, to get that complex a pattern out of so few instructions. > Although the self-modifying code is, err.... (If anyone wants the source or > .LDA, let me know, I can post/upload it.) Yes, a bit weird indeed. Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS, also an Anton Chernoff creation. "Fancy" because it produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is easy, but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode, in versions of RSTS that did not use that mode for real work. paul From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 16:21:29 2017 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:21:29 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS, Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018. Happy computing. Murray :) From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 30 16:55:10 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:55:10 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and > came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real > Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS, > Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in > Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year > everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018. > Happy computing. Murray :) OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you. (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary) "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k "should' have morphed into by now. 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery shopping list in 1976. How long does it take today? Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the quality of life? How much does it help to be able to contact your refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents? (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the computer and run a "modern" text editor?) 5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from scratch? 6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current state of computers? From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 16:57:37 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:57:37 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and > came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real > Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. > > what magazine? b From nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com Sat Dec 30 17:35:18 2017 From: nw at retrocomputingtasmania.com (Nigel Williams) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:35:18 +1100 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:57 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > what magazine? https://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA82 Popular Science Dec-1976 From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 17:36:00 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:36:00 -0600 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: theres some mid 70's insturmentation magizines and industrial computer magizines i inherited with a house i bought this yr full of neat stuff i think theres even some blips of these macheans discused in one of them On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 4:57 PM, william degnan via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 5:21 PM, Murray McCullough via cctalk < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and > > came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real > > Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. > > > > > what magazine? > b > From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 30 18:01:19 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:01:19 -0700 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 12/30/2017 3:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: >> I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and >> came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real >> Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS, >> Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in >> Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year >> everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018. >> Happy computing.? Murray? :) A good site for what was in the 1975-1980 era. http://www.s100computers.com/index.html Yes you could get 16kb in 1976 is if you looked hard. > OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you. > (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary) I can add, I have 10 toes. :) > "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been > mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. > 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k > "should' have morphed into by now. 4K x 64 bit ram? > 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? > > 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? Other than the 6502 and friends $500+ was and still is the price for the cutting edge cpu. > 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery > shopping list in 1976.? How long does it take today? > Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with > audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the > quality of life? I Smell-O-Vision all the time. Sniff Sniff , time to buy new veggies, new meat and wash my socks. How much does it help to be able to contact your > refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents? I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen. The real problem back the, was the lack of REAL disk I/O, with the high price of 8 inch floppy drives and media. Ben. From spc at conman.org Sat Dec 30 18:10:16 2017 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 19:10:16 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171231001016.GD23814@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and > >came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real > >Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS, > >Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in > >Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year > >everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018. > >Happy computing. Murray :) > > OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you. > (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary) Sounds like fun. > "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been > mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. > > 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k > "should' have morphed into by now. 1) 28 doublings since 1975. (2017-1975) * 12 ---------------- 18 4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months) now be 1T (terrabyte): 2^12 = 4K 2^(12+28) 2^40 ~ 1T > 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? That the number of transistors in an integrated circuit double every 18 months. > 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? It depends upon how you calculate it. I'm using this page [1] for the calculation, and I get: Current data is only available till 2016. In 2016, the relative price worth of $500.00 from 1976 is: $2,110.00 using the Consumer Price Index $1,680.00 using the GDP deflator $2,400.00 using the value of consumer bundle $2,000.00 using the unskilled wage $2,450.00 using the Production Worker Compensation $3,340.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP > 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery > shopping list in 1976. How long does it take today? I would think the same amount of time. Typing is typing. > Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with > audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the > quality of life? For me, not really. > How much does it help to be able to contact your > refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents? It could be helpful, but with the current state of IoT, I would not want to have that ability. > (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to > Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to > fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much > can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the > computer and run a "modern" text editor?) EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the "text editors" coming out today, based upon Javascript frameworks. It's scary. > 5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from > scratch? I would say significantly less than 1%. Say, 5% of 1%? That's probably in the right ballpark. > 6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current > state of computers? The world wide web, although I do miss the Byte magazine of the 70s and 80s. Not so much the 90s. -spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in nature ... ) [1] http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 30 19:24:37 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:24:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20171231001016.GD23814@brevard.conman.org> References: <20171231001016.GD23814@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Sean Conner wrote: > 4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months) now be 1T > (terrabyte): >> 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? > That the number of transistors in an integrated circuit double every 18 > months. >> 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? > It depends upon how you calculate it. I'm using this page [1] for the > calculation, and I get: > $4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP >> 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery >> shopping list in 1976. How long does it take today? > I would think the same amount of time. Typing is typing. Except that it seems like it didn't used to take so long to get the machine started up. >> Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with >> audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the >> quality of life? > For me, not really. Really. >> How much does it help to be able to contact your >> refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents? > It could be helpful, but with the current state of IoT, I would not want > to have that ability. But, we could also do our web-surfing standing in the kitchen? > EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the "text editors" coming out > today, based upon Javascript frameworks. It's scary. When a simple peice of software comes on a DVD, because a CD-ROM is no longer big enough, . . . > -spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in nature ... ) Don't you hate rhetorical questions? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 30 19:26:53 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:26:53 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > theres some mid 70's insturmentation magizines and industrial computer > magizines i inherited with a house i bought this yr full of neat stuff i > think theres even some blips of these macheans discused in one of them In those days, they spelled it "M A C H I N E S" Few people know what "macheans" are. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Dec 30 19:43:34 2017 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 17:43:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: > I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then > needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed > up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen. The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half before it is ready to use that speed. Why did anybody ever need more than 64K? And, ten times that much seemed like it oughta be enough for a long time. > The real problem back the, was the lack of REAL disk I/O, with the high price > of 8 inch floppy drives and media. They sure did cost a LOT. And, I remember it being thousands of dollars for a 5 or 10 MB hard disk. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Dec 30 19:53:55 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 20:53:55 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <53DE08D8-44F2-4141-BA6F-361630082558@comcast.net> > On Dec 30, 2017, at 5:55 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > ... > "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. True, but that applies also to any "law of nature". They are not rules, as political laws are; instead they are (a) a compact statement of what has been observed and (b) a prediction of what will be observed in the future. They are always subject to revision if contradicted by evidence, as Newton's law of gravitation was. paul From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sat Dec 30 20:01:52 2017 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 18:01:52 -0800 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists Message-ID: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> Are any of you aware of an MTS mailing list that lives outside of the execrable Yahoo groups environment? And if not, is there any interest in starting one? Meanwhile, if there are any MTS hacks on the list, I have a question: When running *SAV or *SVW, what are the labels the system is expecting for the FSnnnn tapes? I tried the obvious - FS2001 for the FS2001 tape prompted for - but no luck there. Then again, maybe I'm not labeling the tapes properly. This is under Hercules. hetinit -d fs2001.aws FS2001 MTS doesn't cut it. I also tried running *lbh against that tape (to give it the same label), but no luck there, either. The MTS operator's guide doesn't have anything to say about daily/weekly backups, other than the cryptic notes on the *SAV and *SVW files, and I can't find anything else as I dig through the rest of the online system docs. $HELP ? --lyndon From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 20:26:36 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 20:26:36 -0600 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: mts??? as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts?? From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sat Dec 30 20:28:04 2017 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 18:28:04 -0800 Subject: Restoring MTS *FS distribution tapes onto a UNIX system Message-ID: <47F512CC-9EAB-48D2-A579-539AA032F1E3@orthanc.ca> The answer to my previous question lives in the source code. The D6.0A MTS distribution doesn't have the source on disk, so the files need to be extracted from the *FS tapes. On an MTS system, that's a pain in the ass. Given the DRIVER file from the distribution, has anyone tried extracting the 6.0A distribution tapes into UNIX file hierarchy, based on the hinted component/sub names? I'm thinking just the raw files - I don't care that they're EBCDIC at this point, so no content conversion required. --lyndon From bhilpert at shaw.ca Sat Dec 30 20:58:07 2017 From: bhilpert at shaw.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 18:58:07 -0800 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <911560BB-957F-4CDD-A920-C2BC8A5D740B@shaw.ca> On 2017-Dec-30, at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > mts??? > > as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts?? No, Michigan Terminal System. A timesharing system for IBM 360/370 series mainframes, used and maintained at a number of universities from the late 60s through early 90s for campus-wide computing services. From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Dec 30 21:08:29 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:08:29 -0600 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A4854AD.8000400@pico-systems.com> On 12/30/2017 07:43 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot >> something that then needs to check the net. I use a all >> valve audio system and tubes are warmed up and ready to >> go before my music app exits the splash screen. > > The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever > and a half before it is ready to use that speed. > > 5 MINUTES? My old laptop, with very modest CPU, is logged on, from a cold start, in 15 seconds (including me typing the password). That is with Ubuntu Linux. I don't know how long it takes my desktop to boot up, I think a bit longer, but I just leave it on all the time. I do have solid state drives in both those machines. Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 30 21:11:08 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:11:08 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: <1a0caa.5f5bff90.4779af47@aol.com> Thanks for the heads up on this S-100 site! PdP-11 on a s-100 bus even.. Ed# In a message dated 12/30/2017 5:01:26 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: A good site for what was in the 1975-1980 era. http://www.s100computers.com/index.html From tdk.knight at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 21:12:02 2017 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 21:12:02 -0600 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <911560BB-957F-4CDD-A920-C2BC8A5D740B@shaw.ca> References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> <911560BB-957F-4CDD-A920-C2BC8A5D740B@shaw.ca> Message-ID: o neat On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 8:58 PM, Brent Hilpert via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 2017-Dec-30, at 6:26 PM, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote: > > > mts??? > > > > as in manitoba telcome services now known as bellmts?? > > > > No, Michigan Terminal System. > > A timesharing system for IBM 360/370 series mainframes, used and > maintained at a number of universities from the late 60s through early 90s > for campus-wide computing services. From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Dec 30 21:13:15 2017 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:13:15 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: <1a0d3a.6364856e.4779afcb@aol.com> so if you bought the altair and put it away you could sort of sell it for the same amount of money-worth today. In a message dated 12/30/2017 5:10:22 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk at classiccmp.org writes: It was thus said that the Great Fred Cisin via cctalk once stated: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > >I was perusing my old computer magazine collection the other day and > >came across an article entitled: ?Fast-Growing new hobby, Real > >Computers you assemble yourself?, Dec. 1976. It was about MITS, > >Sphere, IMSAI and SWT. 4K memory was $500. Yikes! Even more here in > >Canada. Now this is true Classic Computing. Have a Happy New Year > >everyone. May the computing gods shine down on us all in 2018. > >Happy computing. Murray :) > > OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you. > (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary) Sounds like fun. > "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been > mis-stated as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. > > 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k > "should' have morphed into by now. 1) 28 doublings since 1975. (2017-1975) * 12 ---------------- 18 4K should (had we truly doubed everything every 18 months) now be 1T (terrabyte): 2^12 = 4K 2^(12+28) 2^40 ~ 1T > 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? That the number of transistors in an integrated circuit double every 18 months. > 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? It depends upon how you calculate it. I'm using this page [1] for the calculation, and I get: Current data is only available till 2016. In 2016, the relative price worth of $500.00 from 1976 is: $2,110.00 using the Consumer Price Index $1,680.00 using the GDP deflator $2,400.00 using the value of consumer bundle $2,000.00 using the unskilled wage $2,450.00 using the Production Worker Compensation $3,340.00 using the nominal GDP per capita $4,960.00 using the relative share of GDP > 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery > shopping list in 1976. How long does it take today? I would think the same amount of time. Typing is typing. > Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with > audio commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the > quality of life? For me, not really. > How much does it help to be able to contact your > refrigeratior and query its knowledge of its contents? It could be helpful, but with the current state of IoT, I would not want to have that ability. > (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to > Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to > fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much > can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the > computer and run a "modern" text editor?) EMACS is lean and mean compared to some of the "text editors" coming out today, based upon Javascript frameworks. It's scary. > 5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from > scratch? I would say significantly less than 1%. Say, 5% of 1%? That's probably in the right ballpark. > 6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current > state of computers? The world wide web, although I do miss the Byte magazine of the 70s and 80s. Not so much the 90s. -spc (Yeah, I realize these were probably rhetorical in nature ... ) [1] http://www.measuringworth.com/uscompare/ From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Sat Dec 30 23:22:45 2017 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 22:22:45 -0700 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <1a0d3a.6364856e.4779afcb@aol.com> References: <1a0d3a.6364856e.4779afcb@aol.com> Message-ID: <2d23b65c-d6d0-224d-bb7f-d6c15ffc801e@jetnet.ab.ca> On 12/30/2017 8:13 PM, Ed via cctalk wrote: > so if you bought the altair and put it away you could sort of sell it > for the same amount of money-worth today. > Unmarked bills of course. :) The Lucky One's had timesharing on BIG machines with 32+ K of memory. Ben. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 01:27:49 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 07:27:49 -0000 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> Message-ID: <001601d38208$dcb90aa0$962b1fe0$@gmail.com> Lyndon, Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the Yahoo list it's the best place to ask questions. I assume you don't want to set up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps? Dave (I think I own the yahoo H390-MTS group but its been quiet for ages) > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Lyndon > Nerenberg via cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2017 02:02 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists > > Are any of you aware of an MTS mailing list that lives outside of the execrable > Yahoo groups environment? And if not, is there any interest in starting one? > > Meanwhile, if there are any MTS hacks on the list, I have a question: > > When running *SAV or *SVW, what are the labels the system is expecting for > the FSnnnn tapes? I tried the obvious - FS2001 for the FS2001 tape prompted > for - but no luck there. Then again, maybe I'm not labeling the tapes > properly. > > This is under Hercules. > > hetinit -d fs2001.aws FS2001 MTS > > doesn't cut it. I also tried running *lbh against that tape (to give it the same > label), but no luck there, either. > > The MTS operator's guide doesn't have anything to say about daily/weekly > backups, other than the cryptic notes on the *SAV and *SVW files, and I can't > find anything else as I dig through the rest of the online system docs. > > $HELP ? > > --lyndon From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Dec 31 07:01:14 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:01:14 +0100 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171231130114.kedvouhda7g2mr2t@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 02:55:10PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > OK, a little arithmetic exercise for you. > (a 16C is nice for this, but hardly necessary) > "Moore's Law", which was a prediction, not a "LAW", has often been mis-stated > as predicting a doubling of speed/capacity every 18 months. Newton's "laws" are also only an approximate prediction, but they got us to the moon and back. > 1) Figure out how many 18 month invtervals since then, and what 4k "should' > have morphed into by now. 2017-1976 = 31; 41/1.5 = 82/3 = 27 + 1/3 doublings. 2**(27+1/3) = ~170M; 170M x 4K = ~645G of RAM. My original guesstimate of that power calculation was 140M, but I don't trust logarithms in my head and double-checked with a calculator. The calculation error was at least less than the whole premise of the calculation :) > 2) What did Gordon Moore actually say in 1965? >From memory, it was that the *number of transistors* per die would double every such-and-such period, which I think was initially two years. The Wiki Of A Million Lies agrees. > 3) How much is $500 of 1976 money worth now? About $2,100, if you trust the US government's official statistics. I'd have gone for $5k myself on the "add another zero every 40 years" rule of thumb that applies to real-world goods rather than the fictional ones used by government statisticians. > 4) Consider how long it took to use a text editor to make a grocery shopping > list in 1976. How long does it take today? Write it in Emacs and email it to my phone so I can consult it in the shop if need be. No slower than it would have been in the 1970s, apart from that the phone would have been bolted to my house, and how would one email to it anyway? If I had to fight a modern printer to get a hardcopy to take, sod it, I'll just write it out longhand instead. (This is what I usually do.) > Does having the grocery list consist of pictures instead of words, with audio > commentary, and maybe Smell-O-Vision (coming soon), improve the quality of > life? How much does it help to be able to contact your refrigeratior and > query its knowledge of its contents? Let's take an arbitary example of taking a horrified look at the 2015 election results, going "ugh" at Tory Britain, and upping sticks to another country where one doesn't know the language. I can't think why that comes to mind... That left me functionally illiterate until I picked up the rudiments of the language, and pictures can be useful. My phone contains several apps which are also helpful for learning Dutch, and doing OCR and machine-assisted translation of the bits I've not learned yet. I can text a message home and ask if there's something I need to buy as I'm passing a supermarket. One doesn't need the fridge itself to be smart for the communications technology to be useful. In the 1970s, I could have gone and found a payphone, but a text message is less inconvenient for both parties than a phone call. Less useful, but still useful, is my phone's ability to give a local map and a "you are here" pointer, and public transport times can be consulted. I say less-useful, because these apps tend to be limited to providing a single (and rarely optimal) solution to an immediate need and fail to provide an understanding of the system in general. That's why I still prefer regular maps and timetables, which are sadly becoming harder to get hold of. But anyway, all of that computing power has definitely improved the quality of life compared to trying to do the same thing in the 1970s. > (Keep in mind, that although hardware expanded exponentially, according to > Moore's Law, Software follows a corollary of Boyle's Law, and expands to > fill the available space and use all of the available resources - how much > can "modern" software do in 4K?, and how much is needed to boot the computer > and run a "modern" text editor?) On bare metal, you need 8K of page tables just to enable long mode on a modern Intel CPU, so that's not going to fly. The second question is a bit more difficult due to the vagaries of memory usage on modern virtual memory operating systems. The VM I'm logged into to compose this mail has 4GB of "RAM" (which itself is vulnerable to swapping at the whims of the hypervisor) but the VM does a lot more than email, and reports it's using about 1GB of the 4GB allocated to it. My text editor has a nominal size (VSZ) of 144MB, but that number is misleading as most of that is memory-mapped data which doesn't really count because I don't use that functionality so it's never mapped in. VSZ hasn't been a meaningful indicator of memory usage in decades, despite monitoring tools continuing to display it. About 20MB *is* mapped in, and another 4MB is used as heap, i.e. editor workspace. If the machine was *only* used for reading and composing email, I could probably get away with 32-64MB. OTOH, I'm paying ?30/month to rent and host the bare metal hardware onto which I've loaded several similar VMs, and the cost of the "wasted" memory is basically pocket fluff. Or in boomers-whinging-about-milleninal terms, about one avocado on toast per day. The elephant in the room is web browsers, which are the poster child for modern bloated software. My laptop has just decided to run hot at 100% CPU. It turns out that a background Firefox got bored and decided to just burn CPU and RAM for the hell of it. The applications runing atop browsers are even more appalling. There are also the insidious applications that claim to be native, but really just boot up a hidden web browser and display its output. Command-line text-only programs are still fairly reasonable and have mercifully not kept up with Moore's Law. > 5) What percentage of computer users still build from kits, or from scratch? I assemble desktops and servers myself because I don't care to pay the Microsoft tax for a machine that's going to end up running some form of Unix, and also don't want a machine full of lowest-bidder components that the likes of Dell and HP use. Laptops, phones, tablets etc, I obviously have no option but to buy pre-assembled. The number of users who build bespoke machines from parts is probably in the low single-digits percent. Those who use a soldering iron to assemble from discrete components is going to be so small a percentage as to be negligible, but not zero. Not all of them are nostalgic old farts either. The *absolute* numbers of people building computers (at either level) is probably still increasing year-on-year. > 6) What has replaced magazines for keeping in touch with the current state of > computers? The Internet, of course. Again, in percentage terms, almost all of it is utter garbage, but in absolute terms, there's vastly more information available than there was in 1976. From abuse at cabal.org.uk Sun Dec 31 07:30:21 2017 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:30:21 +0100 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20171231133021.ham6inaj3ezp7umq@mooli.org.uk> On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 05:43:34PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then >> needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed >> up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen. > The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half before > it is ready to use that speed. I reckon if I did a side-by-side cold boot of ye olde Amiga 1000 into Workbench to launch memacs versus firing up my Mac laptop and launching Emacs.app, there'd be not much in it. I also very rarely reboot my laptop. Close the lid, and it goes to sleep. Open the lid -- and perhaps wait 5-10s if it had been asleep for long enough that it decided to suspend-to-disk and needed to pull the memory image back in -- and it's ready to continue where I left off. > Why did anybody ever need more than 64K? There's no *need*, just like there's no *need* for computers at all. But since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, except as an intellectual exercise. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 31 08:32:28 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:32:28 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC quad board rack Message-ID: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg which holds them vertically. It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive. If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different clearances for the solder and component sides.) The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be used, albeit tedious. Noel From emu at e-bbes.com Sun Dec 31 08:39:07 2017 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 07:39:07 -0700 Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <4a4b2de8-e65b-6ea0-b746-09f727883c85@e-bbes.com> On 2017-12-31 07:32, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've > finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg > > which holds them vertically. Nice! However, I have the double and quad boards simply in a file cabinet, and this way, they don't get dusty. But interesting idea, to get the hex-boards organized ... > The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in > that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a > radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could > be used, albeit tedious. Probably somebody with the fancy 3d printer could make plates, which have the groves in the right distances? something like ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ -------------------------------------------------------- Cheers From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 31 08:41:08 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:41:08 -0500 (EST) Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern Message-ID: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Paul Koning > RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem ... As part of trying > to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5 > dectapes. ... We printed them ... I still have copies of those files. Is that version available online? If not, maybe an OCR project? (Although I know other versions of RSTS-11 are available, so maybe it's not rare enough to make the tedium of OCR worth it. That has been used on a number of systems; notably CTSS, but also the IMP code and the Apollo Guidance Computer, that I know of. I'm currently looking into getting an early version of MERT, and that may also come down to OCR - if we're lucky!) > Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it > produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is easy, > but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever! (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_ memory.) Is the source available? Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 31 08:51:56 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:51:56 -0000 Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <014e01d38246$e79e28e0$b6da7aa0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa via cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2017 14:32 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: DEC quad board rack > > So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've > finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg > > which holds them vertically. > > It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them horizontally, > which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be absolutely > perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the boards > held vertically, it's much less sensitive. > > If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that the > slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different clearances for > the solder and component sides.) > > The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in > that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a radial- > arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be used, > albeit tedious. > That is a really nice idea if you have a lot of boards. I don't have quite that many, but I do have a few. I am going to be re-organising myself soon, so I may do something like this. Thanks for the idea. Regards Rob From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 09:21:01 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:21:01 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2017, at 9:41 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > >> From: Paul Koning > >> RSTS-11 V4, which had a major reliability problem ... As part of trying >> to keep the customer placated, DEC supplied full OS sources, 5 >> dectapes. ... We printed them ... I still have copies of those files. > > Is that version available online? If not, maybe an OCR project? I don't know; if not I should dig through mine and submit it to Bitsavers. I don't have the original DECtapes, but rather a copy of the files on magtape, so metadata is largely missing but the actual files should be there. > (Although I know other versions of RSTS-11 are available, so maybe it's not > rare enough to make the tedium of OCR worth it. That has been used on a > number of systems; notably CTSS, but also the IMP code and the Apollo > Guidance Computer, that I know of. I'm currently looking into getting an > early version of MERT, and that may also come down to OCR - if we're lucky!) > > >> Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it >> produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is easy, >> but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode > > Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever! > (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_ > memory.) Is the source available? Correct, it uses the MMU so it only needs 64 bytes of table space to get the low order bits right. See attached. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 09:27:33 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:27:33 -0500 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: References: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5D99CAA7-B652-4B65-9F6F-2A3D69B05277@comcast.net> > On Dec 31, 2017, at 10:21 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: > > ... >> >> Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever! >> (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much _actual_ >> memory.) Is the source available? > > Correct, it uses the MMU so it only needs 64 bytes of table space to get the low order bits right. See attached. Ok, so the list stripped the attachment. Try it this way. paul .INCLUDE /CMN:COMMON/ TITLE LIGHTS,,0A,10-MAY-91,MHB/ABC/WBN ; ; COPYRIGHT (c) 1974, 1991 BY ; DIGITAL EQUIPMENT CORPORATION, MAYNARD, MASS. ; ; THIS SOFTWARE IS FURNISHED UNDER A LICENSE AND MAY BE USED AND COPIED ; ONLY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THE TERMS OF SUCH LICENSE AND WITH THE ; INCLUSION OF THE ABOVE COPYRIGHT NOTICE. THIS SOFTWARE OR ANY OTHER ; COPIES THEREOF MAY NOT BE PROVIDED OR OTHERWISE MADE AVAILABLE TO ANY ; OTHER PERSON. NO TITLE TO AND OWNERSHIP OF THE SOFTWARE IS HEREBY ; TRANSFERRED. ; ; THE INFORMATION IN THIS SOFTWARE IS SUBJECT TO CHANGE WITHOUT NOTICE ; AND SHOULD NOT BE CONSTRUED AS A COMMITMENT BY DIGITAL EQUIPMENT ; CORPORATION. ; ; DIGITAL ASSUMES NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THE USE OR RELIABILITY OF ITS ; SOFTWARE ON EQUIPMENT WHICH IS NOT SUPPLIED BY DIGITAL. ; .SBTTL EDIT HISTORY FOR LIGHTS ;+ ; ; 000 RRF 06-MAR-81 CREATION - COPIED FROM V7.0-07 ; ;- DEFORG LIGHTS .SBTTL A FANCY NULL JOB ; NEEDED DEFINITIONS SISDR0 = 172200 ;SUPERVISOR INSTRUCTION DESC REG 0 SISAR0 = 172240 ;SUPERVISOR INSTRUCTION ADDR REG 0 PS = 177776 ;PROCESSOR STATUS ORG NULJOB ; INITIAL ENTRY POINT NULJOB: BIT #004000,@#PS ;DO WE HAVE SUPERVISOR MODE (2 REG SETS)? BNE 30$ ;YES, DO IT FANCY... ; THE SIMPLE NULL JOB 10$: MOV R2,R1 ;RELOAD THE WAIT COUNTER 20$: WAIT ;DISPLAY THE LIGHTS (R0) A WHILE SOB R1,20$ ;KEEP WAITING ROL R0 ;ELSE SHIFT PATTERN 1 PLACE LEFT BR 10$ ; AND AROUND AGAIN... ; FANCY NULL JOB SETUP 30$: MOV #176000,R3 ;PRE-SET THE MEM ADR LIGHT PATTERN MOV (PC)+,R4 ;GET DESC REG VALUE FOR .BYTE 4!2,128.-1 ; R/W AND 4K MOV #SISDR0,R5 ;POINT TO SUPERVISOR DESC REGS MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR0 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR1 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR2 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR3 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV #177600,SISAR0-SISDR0(R5) ;LOAD PAR4 FOR THE I/O PAGE MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR4 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV #40$,R1 ;FORM A MMU ADDRESS ASH #-6,R1 ; THAT WILL MAP OUR CODE BIC #^C<001777>,R1 ; IN SUPERVISOR MODE MOV R1,SISAR0-SISDR0(R5) ;LOAD MMU ADDRESS FOR PAR5 (CODE) MOV (PC)+,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR5 WITH .BYTE 2,128.-1 ; R-O AND 4K CLR (R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR6 WITH "ABORT" MOV R4,(R5)+ ;LOAD SISDR7 WITH 4K AND R/W MOV #000340,@#PS ;;;WE CAN'T AFFORD AN INTERRUPT HERE MOV #054040,-(SP) ;;;NEW PS OF SUPERVISOR MODE @ PR1 MOV #40$,-(SP) ;;;NEW PC OF OUR ROUTINE BIC #^C<77>,(SP) ;;; CORRECTED FOR RUNNING BIS #120000,(SP) ;;; OUT OF PAR5 RTI ;;;DROP INTO SUPERVISOR MODE!!! ; THE FANCY NULL JOB 40$: MOV R3,R1 ;COPY PATTERN FOR MEM ADR LIGHTS BIC #^C<077776>,R1 ; AND ENSURE AN HONEST ADDRESS CLR R4 ;CLEAR A HIGH ORDER MOV R1,R5 ; AND SET LOW ORDER AS ADDRESS ASHC #3,R4 ;EXTRACT THE APR # ASL R4 ; AND FORM APR # TIMES 2 ADD #SISAR0-160000+100000,R4 ;FIND PAR TO USE (I/O PAGE = PAR4) ASH #-3,R5 ;CORRECT THE VIRTUAL ADDRESS BIC #^C<017700>,R5 ; AND ISOLATE OFFSET WITHIN PAR NEG R5 ;SUBTRACT OFFSET WITHIN PAR ADD #70$,R5 ; FROM OUR WORK TABLE ASH #-6,R5 ;FIND THAT AS A MMU ADDRESS BIC #^C<001777>,R5 ; WITH NO SIGN EXTENSION MOV R5,(R4) ;LOAD CORRECT PAR WITH CORRECT ADDRESS BIT R4,#16 ;ARE WE USING PAR0? BNE 50$ ;NO ADD #20,R4 ;YES, CORRECT FOR PAR7 NEXT 50$: SUB #200,R5 ;GO BACKWARDS 4K MOV R5,-(R4) ; AND LOAD NEXT LOWER PAR WITH THAT MOV (PC)+,(R1) ;LOAD THE RETURN INSTRUCTION JMP (R4) ; WHICH IS JUMP THROUGH R4 MOV (PC)+,-(R1) ;LOAD THE WAITING INSTRUCTION WAIT ; WHICH IS WAIT MOV R2,R5 ;REFRESH WAIT COUNTER MOV PC,R4 ;SET THE RETURN ADDRESS CMP (R4)+,(R4)+ ; FOR WAITING DONE (PIC) 60$: JMP (R1) ;GO OFF AND DISPLAY LIGHTS... SOB R5,60$ ;DO UNTIL TIME'S UP ASL R0 ;SHIFT LIGHTS 1 PLACE LEFT ROR R3 ; AND BACK THROUGH MEMORY LIGHTS ADC R0 ; WITH A CARRY BR 40$ ;FROM THE TOP... .BLKB 100 ;RESERVE WORK SPACE 70$: .BLKB 100 ;RESERVE WORK SPACE .END From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Dec 31 09:58:41 2017 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 15:58:41 +0000 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <20171231133021.ham6inaj3ezp7umq@mooli.org.uk> References: , <20171231133021.ham6inaj3ezp7umq@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: One thing that is starting to hurt with larger use of memory is the ability to access and load such large blocks of memory. I'm not saying that access speed haven't gone up but we are quickly reaching a wall, similar to the 4gig clock speed wall for the processors. Throwing more cache layers is of decreasing value. There are things that can be done but are not likely in the near future. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Peter Corlett via cctalk Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 5:30:21 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 On Sat, Dec 30, 2017 at 05:43:34PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, 30 Dec 2017, ben via cctalk wrote: >> I find I want use computers less , 5+ minutes to boot something that then >> needs to check the net. I use a all valve audio system and tubes are warmed >> up and ready to go before my music app exits the splash screen. > The "modern" computer is much faster, but it takes forever and a half before > it is ready to use that speed. I reckon if I did a side-by-side cold boot of ye olde Amiga 1000 into Workbench to launch memacs versus firing up my Mac laptop and launching Emacs.app, there'd be not much in it. I also very rarely reboot my laptop. Close the lid, and it goes to sleep. Open the lid -- and perhaps wait 5-10s if it had been asleep for long enough that it decided to suspend-to-disk and needed to pull the memory image back in -- and it's ready to continue where I left off. > Why did anybody ever need more than 64K? There's no *need*, just like there's no *need* for computers at all. But since we have computers with multiple gigabytes of RAM, it makes little sense to restrain one's use of them to a fraction of the capabilities, except as an intellectual exercise. From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 31 10:02:07 2017 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:02:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <245096042.7293039.1514736127172@mail.yahoo.com> Noel, I recently I picked up a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is important to protect against humidity. You sure have a boat load of cards, have you had any failures while in storage? Thanks Mike Zahorik From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:32 AM Subject: DEC quad board rack So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg which holds them vertically. It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive. If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different clearances for the solder and component sides.) The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be used, albeit tedious. ??? Noel From m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net Sun Dec 31 10:02:07 2017 From: m.zahorik at sbcglobal.net (Michael Zahorik) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:02:07 +0000 (UTC) Subject: DEC quad board rack In-Reply-To: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231143228.8F53018C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <245096042.7293039.1514736127172@mail.yahoo.com> Noel, I recently I picked up a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is important to protect against humidity. You sure have a boat load of cards, have you had any failures while in storage? Thanks Mike Zahorik From: Noel Chiappa via cctalk To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sent: Sunday, December 31, 2017 8:32 AM Subject: DEC quad board rack So, I've been making wooden racks to hold a lot of my DEC boards, and I've finally come up with a nice design for one, which holds quad boards: ? http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/QuadRack.jpg which holds them vertically. It's much better than the dual rack next to it, which holds them horizontally, which has the issue that the distance between the sides needs to be absolutely perfect, otherwise the boards tend to drop out of their slots. With the boards held vertically, it's much less sensitive. If anyone's interested in building one, I can whip up a drawing. (Note that the slots are offset slightly to the left because one needs different clearances for the solder and component sides.) The one shown uses 3 pieces of 1"x8"x6' (not sure what that translates to in that new-fangled French stuff :-). It would be tricky to make without a radial-arm saw, though - although I suppose a router with a small bit could be used, albeit tedious. ??? Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 11:38:17 2017 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 09:38:17 -0800 Subject: RT-11 idle light pattern In-Reply-To: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20171231144108.1672818C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 6:41 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > > > > Stranger still is the "fancy" lights in RSTS ... "Fancy" because it > > produces a rotating pattern not just in the data lights which is > easy, > > but also in the address lights. It runs in supervisor mode > > Ah; it must busy loop at loops spread across the address space? Clever! > (Perhaps using the mapping hardware so that it doesn't use too much > _actual_ > memory.) Is the source available? > > I'm not familiar with that memory mapping hardware so this is idle speculation: mapping every virtual page to the same physical page and the idle loop instead of "jump to top of loop" does "jump to top of loop + page size" -- Charles From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 11:41:34 2017 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:41:34 +0000 Subject: Slightly Meta: Travel tips for people traveling internationally with vintage equipment? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 30, 2017 at 6:10 AM, Michael Brutman via cctalk < cctalk at classiccmp.org> wrote: > I'm actively working on show planning for VCF PNW and I'm noticing that we > have a few international travelers planning to attend and exhibit their > machines/projects. I'd like to put together a FAQ for the logistics of > traveling with vintage equipment across the US border. If you have ideas > please let me know. > > For example: Should I plan on providing letters in advance stating that a > person is a registered exhibitor at our show, including details like the > show location, dates, times, and contact information in case there is a > question about why somebody is carrying strange looking equipment into the > US? Is there any sort of paperwork or customs form needed even if nothing > is being sold or left in the US? Any other gotchas to look for? > All the documentation you can provide can only help. I don't have much experience with computing equipment, but I have seen horrible things happen to other unusual electronics. Specifically, I used to go to a lot of fencing meets when my daughter was competitive. The armorers (the staff who check the weapons for safety and electrical soundness) generally make their own test rigs - a few sockets, some LEDs, an meter or two. Their construction is a point of pride. Several times they had packed them in checked luggage and arrived to find their equipment opened up, with wires to batteries snipped. It's been 10 years since then, so maybe the TSA has realized that randomly snipping wires in a device you don't undertand is a brain-dead idea, but you never know. I would pack anything going on a plane, domestic or international, with all or any of - letters about exhibition - a copy of a manual - bill of sale - schematics - owners contact information > > > Thanks, > Mike > From gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at Sun Dec 31 12:20:45 2017 From: gerhard.kreuzer at liftoff.at (Gerhard Kreuzer) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 19:20:45 +0100 Subject: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> Hi, I was working 1976 as a volunteer at a research center near Vienna in Austria writing FORTRAN programs on a PDP8a. We also have a PDP8/e there. Now I am collecting DEC stuff. Happy new year !!!!!!!!!!!! Gerhard -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von cctalk-request at classiccmp.org Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2017 19:00 An: cctalk at classiccmp.org Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 30 Send cctalk mailing list submissions to cctalk at classiccmp.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cctalk-request at classiccmp.org You can reach the person managing the list at cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From ftg888 at protonmail.com Sun Dec 31 12:23:30 2017 From: ftg888 at protonmail.com (. .) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:23:30 -0500 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> References: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe please/ Thanks PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :) > -------- Original Message -------- > Subject: Computing from 1976 > Local Time: December 31, 2017 7:20 PM > UTC Time: December 31, 2017 6:20 PM > From: cctalk at classiccmp.org > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hi, > > I was working 1976 as a volunteer at a research center near Vienna in > Austria writing FORTRAN programs on a PDP8a. We also have a PDP8/e there. > Now I am collecting DEC stuff. > > Happy new year !!!!!!!!!!!! > > Gerhard > > -----Urspr?ngliche Nachricht----- > Von: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Im Auftrag von > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > Gesendet: Sonntag, 31. Dezember 2017 19:00 > An: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Betreff: cctalk Digest, Vol 39, Issue 30 > > Send cctalk mailing list submissions to > cctalk at classiccmp.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cctalk-request at classiccmp.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cctalk-owner at classiccmp.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than > "Re: Contents of cctalk digest..." From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 31 14:09:56 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:09:56 -0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting Message-ID: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this. I put a logic analyser on it as well as a scope. The CPU Reset pin looks fine, it goes high and stays high. The logic analyser shows that it is happily reading code from the ROM during the boot sequence and it will suddenly start fetching instructions from address 0 again, this appears to be somewhat random. I don't have a lot of experience with logic analysers, and I have found that some pod/probe combinations cause the machine not to work at all, so the logic analyser is not, unfortunately, above suspicion. However the behaviour I see appears consistent with what the logic analyser is telling me. My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as there is always a risk of damage to the board. Has anyone seen a similar problem before? Could this indeed be the CPU or the ROM, or could there be a different cause? Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Dec 31 14:11:20 2017 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:11:20 -0000 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: References: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> Message-ID: <015c01d38273$85f80430$91e80c90$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of . . via cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2017 18:24 > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 > > Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe please/ > Ebay :-(, Vintage Computer Forum and just watching out for emails to this list. > Thanks > > PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :) From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 14:30:11 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:30:11 -0000 Subject: Computing from 1976 In-Reply-To: <015c01d38273$85f80430$91e80c90$@ntlworld.com> References: <012a01d38264$13c20820$3b461860$@liftoff.at> <015c01d38273$85f80430$91e80c90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <010301d38276$2877fba0$7967f2e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rob Jarratt > via cctalk > Sent: 31 December 2017 20:11 > To: '. .' ; 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Computing from 1976 > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of . . via > cctalk > > Sent: 31 December 2017 18:24 > > Cc: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 > > > > Is there a good place to hunt or purchase DEC/VAX stuff here in Europe > please/ > > > > Ebay :-(, Vintage Computer Forum and just watching out for emails to this list. > Also DEC TEC list http://dectec.info/ Usenet group comp.os.vms VCF Forums http://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum.php -> e.g. http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?61297-Vaxstation-3200-in-Bonn-Cologne-area-Germany-(Pickup-only)&highlight=vax+3200 http://www.retrocomputermuseum.co.uk/forum/ > > > Thanks > > > > PS: Used to work for DEC in Canada :) > Dave P.S. what sort of VAX were you after? From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Dec 31 14:38:38 2017 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:38:38 -0600 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <5A494ACE.8060200@pico-systems.com> On 12/31/2017 02:09 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither > works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another > look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you > see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows > the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this. > > > > I put a logic analyser on it as well as a scope. The CPU Reset pin looks > fine, it goes high and stays high. > > > > The logic analyser shows that it is happily reading code from the ROM during > the boot sequence and it will suddenly start fetching instructions from > address 0 again, this appears to be somewhat random. I don't have a lot of > experience with logic analysers, and I have found that some pod/probe > combinations cause the machine not to work at all, so the logic analyser is > not, unfortunately, above suspicion. However the behaviour I see appears > consistent with what the logic analyser is telling me. > > > > My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither > is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as > there is always a risk of damage to the board. > > > > Has anyone seen a similar problem before? Could this indeed be the CPU or > the ROM, or could there be a different cause? > > It COULD be, but then it has to do a LOT of things right to get the copyright message on the screen. I'd be more likely to suspect a bad location or region of the ROM than the CPU. Or, it could be noisy power rails (maybe bad capacitors degrading) or some other component in the address or data paths that is no longer holding good logic levels or speeds or something like that. Jon From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 14:39:09 2017 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:39:09 +0000 Subject: ZX Spectrum Z80 Keeps Resetting In-Reply-To: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> References: <015701d38273$543adcb0$fcb09610$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On 31 Dec 2017, at 20:09, Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > > For some time now I have had a couple of ZX Spectrum machines. Neither > works, each has a different problem. Today I got one of them out for another > look. The problem with it is that it seems to constantly reset itself, you > see the copyright screen briefly and then it disappears (the TV screen shows > the usual "snow" when there is no signal). It just cycles round doing this. What is your PSU outputting? Sounds like it?s *just* borderline to feed the 7805 on input. At least the 12v coil is OK so that?s one less thing to worry about - if it wasn?t you?d not get a copyright screen at all. Remember the PSU is centre negative, it should be putting out over 12VDC. > My thoughts are that this must either be a bad Z80 CPU or a bad ROM. Neither > is socketed and I am reluctant to desolder ICs unless I really have to as > there is always a risk of damage to the board. If either of those two are bad you?ll get static bars on the screen, they won?t cause a reset like you?re seeing. I?d be checking power first. Cheers ? Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs - Celebrating Computing History from 1972 onwards From sieler at allegro.com Sun Dec 31 14:48:33 2017 From: sieler at allegro.com (Stan Sieler) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:48:33 -0800 Subject: VAX/VMS & IBM 360 manuals from mid 1980s Message-ID: Hi, A friend, probably in Ohio, tells me his father has 3 boxes (about 150 pounds) of manuals for VAX/VMS and IBM 360 from the mid 1980s. If anyone's interested in following up, email me and I'll send you the contact info. thanks, and Happy New Year! Stan Sieler From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 31 14:58:50 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 12:58:50 -0800 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? Message-ID: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> I've been experimenting with the SIMH VAX simulators a lot lately. The only way I know of to mount a tape, disk pack, CD-ROM, etc. after boot time is to halt the simulation with ^e to get to the SIMH command prompt, ATTACH the desired image, and then resume the simulation with CONTINUE. Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the simulation? I've tried putting the system console on a telnet port so it doesn't occupy SIMH's controlling terminal, and I found that it's still necessary to halt the simulation to get back to the SIMH command prompt. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 15:47:25 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:47:25 -0500 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Yes, but you were not able to attach in your startup script? That's when to do it. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 31, 2017 3:59 PM, "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" wrote: > I've been experimenting with the SIMH VAX simulators a lot lately. The > only way I know of to mount a tape, disk pack, CD-ROM, etc. after boot time > is to halt the simulation with ^e to get to the SIMH command prompt, ATTACH > the desired image, and then resume the simulation with CONTINUE. > > Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the > simulation? I've tried putting the system console on a telnet port so it > doesn't occupy SIMH's controlling terminal, and I found that it's still > necessary to halt the simulation to get back to the SIMH command prompt. > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Dec 31 15:52:06 2017 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:52:06 -0500 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 12:58, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > Is there any way to attach/detach media images in SIMH without halting the > simulation? See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide. The "SET REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the simulator is running. -- Dave From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 31 15:54:28 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 13:54:28 -0800 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:47, william degnan wrote: > > Yes, but you were not able to attach in your startup script? That's when to do it. > It's common practice, and frequently a necessity, to mount media such as tapes without rebooting the machine they're being mounted on. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 31 16:03:03 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:03:03 -0800 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> > On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:52, J. David Bryan wrote: > > See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide. The "SET > REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the > simulator is running. That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried that before. Thanks! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 16:10:01 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:10:01 -0500 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could mount them later? I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to the procedure. I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware. Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net On Dec 31, 2017 5:03 PM, "Mark J. Blair via cctalk" wrote: > > > On Dec 31, 2017, at 13:52, J. David Bryan wrote: > > > > See section 3.15, "Remote Console" in the SIMH User's Guide. The "SET > > REMOTE TELNET" command will allow you to attach and detach while the > > simulator is running. > > That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried > that before. Thanks! > > > -- > Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Dec 31 16:14:57 2017 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:14:57 -0500 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: Typically you need to have devices online so the OS will see them at startup. But for removable media devices (tapes and many disks) you may want to mount the media (image files) later on, and switch them at runtime, exactly as you would do with disk packs or tape reels on a real computer. paul > On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:10 PM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: > > I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could > mount them later? I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to > the procedure. I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware. > > Bill Degnan From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 31 16:25:54 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 14:25:54 -0800 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: <95A7FE53-F1B8-4FEA-BFFF-81DBF68A702E@nf6x.net> > On Dec 31, 2017, at 14:10, william degnan wrote: > > I thought you set all devices you planned to use "online" so you could mount them later? I don't simh vax much so thanks for the correction as to the procedure. I mostly do pdp8 or pdp11 stuff, or esoteric hardware. > > That's what I'd generally do for things like fixed disks. But in normal use of, say, a VAX running VMS, you'll want to be able to change tapes without rebooting the whole system in order to restart SIMH with a different configuration file. Even on a simulated PDP-11 running RT-11, you might want to swap out simulated floppies in one of the RX02 drives, for example. Pausing a simulated PDP-11 running RT-11 momentarily to attach a different image isn't a big deal, because the system was probably sitting idle, anyway. But halting a VAX that's serving as a DECnet area router or a cluster disk server just to swap a tape or disk pack is not ideal. Anyway, the remote console feature appears to do exactly what I want. Yay! -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X > http://www.nf6x.net/ From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sun Dec 31 18:12:52 2017 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 16:12:52 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <001601d38208$dcb90aa0$962b1fe0$@gmail.com> References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> <001601d38208$dcb90aa0$962b1fe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Lyndon, > Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the Yahoo > list it's the best place to ask questions. I assume you don't want to set > up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps? I did fight my way thought the Yahoo interface to get onto at least one of the MTS groups via the mailing list interface. But after falling off that a couple of times, for unknown reasons, I gave up. And as I mentioned, the Yahoo Groups web interface is just too horrible to contemplate. And no, I don't do Facebook, either. But that wouldn't make a difference in this case. I pine for the simplicity of mailing lists. Then again, Yahoo, as co-instigators of DMARC, are ensuring the end of mailing lists as we've known and loved them for the past three decades. --lyndon From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 19:00:10 2017 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2018 01:00:10 -0000 Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> <001601d38208$dcb90aa0$962b1fe0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <011f01d3829b$dfd3ae50$9f7b0af0$@gmail.com> Ok well I have checked and it looks like Lyndon is on the yahoo MTS list, but his mail supplier may be filing as spam. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: Lyndon Nerenberg [mailto:lyndon at orthanc.ca] > Sent: 01 January 2018 00:13 > To: Dave Wade > Cc: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists > > > Lyndon, > > Seeing as the folks who set up the original distribution are on the > > Yahoo list it's the best place to ask questions. I assume you don't > > want to set up a Yahoo account? Facebook perhaps? > > I did fight my way thought the Yahoo interface to get onto at least one of the > MTS groups via the mailing list interface. But after falling off that a couple of > times, for unknown reasons, I gave up. And as I mentioned, the Yahoo > Groups web interface is just too horrible to contemplate. > > And no, I don't do Facebook, either. But that wouldn't make a difference in > this case. > > I pine for the simplicity of mailing lists. Then again, Yahoo, as co-instigators of > DMARC, are ensuring the end of mailing lists as we've known and loved them > for the past three decades. > > --lyndon From lyndon at orthanc.ca Sun Dec 31 19:04:40 2017 From: lyndon at orthanc.ca (Lyndon Nerenberg) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 17:04:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: Non-Yahoo MTS Mailing Lists In-Reply-To: <011f01d3829b$dfd3ae50$9f7b0af0$@gmail.com> References: <328A0755-03C4-43D1-9942-14426998F80C@orthanc.ca> <001601d38208$dcb90aa0$962b1fe0$@gmail.com> <011f01d3829b$dfd3ae50$9f7b0af0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > Ok well I have checked and it looks like Lyndon is on the yahoo MTS list, > but his mail supplier may be filing as spam. Umm ... his email supplier is him. I've been running my own mail servers since the early 1980s. If anything is getting bounced, it's because my email servers brand the content (not list) as spam, no better or worse then they brand any other traffic. (Hint: spamassassin and xbl.) --lyndon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Dec 31 19:05:22 2017 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:05:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC quad board rack Message-ID: <20180101010522.4A31118C09F@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Michael Zahorik > a dozen or so spare boards for my PDP8E. I was wondering about how to > store them. Some guys recommend some poly bags, others say it is > important to protect against humidity. ... have you had any failures > while in storage? Well, i) most of my boards had been in uncertain storage for a long time before they got to me, and I've only tested a fraction of them, so if I tried one now, and it had an issue, I wouldn't know when (i.e. under which storage regime) it happened - some have shown failures, but I think they all happened before they got to me; ii) some of the failures we see (e.g. PROM's losing their programming) are known to happen via various time-related processes, not storage condition; and iii) I'm not a hardware person, but even then, you'd want someone with expertise in failures, which is not common. But, having said that, these are my 'common-sense' rules for storage: i) bags aren't critical (especially for older stuff, which is generally bipolar, not CMOS, and therefore not very sensitive to static), ii) high humidity is not good, as you can get corrosion on chip leads (I've seen a few where the leads were so corroded they came off)- but very low humidity can be an issue, if you have CMOS, as it's more static-friendly (as Dave Bridgham found out the hard way in his lab); iii) large-amplitude temperature cycles are not good, as thermally-induced contraction and expansion probably aren't good; and avoiding very high, and very low temperatures (even if constant) is probably better for long-term health. Noel From jdbryan at acm.org Sun Dec 31 19:07:34 2017 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 20:07:34 -0500 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net>, , <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: On Sunday, December 31, 2017 at 14:03, Mark J. Blair via cctalk wrote: > That appears to work perfectly. I don't know what I did wrong when I tried > that before. You mentioned that you "tried putting the system console on a telnet port," so you might have used the "SET CONSOLE TELNET" command (section 3.14 in the user's guide). This separates the system console from the simulation console, leaving the latter attached to the initiating window. But you still have to interrupt simulation with CTRL+E (at the simulation console) to enter the ATTACH command. The "SET REMOTE TELNET" command, by contrast, connects a second, limited simulation console in parallel with the original simulation console. Commands entered at the remote console are performed internally by stopping the simulation, executing the command, and then resuming. The simulator still pauses to execute the command, but only for the minimum time necessary. > Thanks! You're welcome. -- Dave From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Dec 31 20:55:41 2017 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 18:55:41 -0800 Subject: Attaching SIMH devices without halting simulation? In-Reply-To: References: <3B073A78-87F5-4BA1-A35F-72C88B427868@nf6x.net> <274C04E3-45E8-469D-A957-2E0478B26C5F@nf6x.net> Message-ID: > On Dec 31, 2017, at 5:07 PM, J. David Bryan via cctalk wrote: > > > You mentioned that you "tried putting the system console on a telnet port," > so you might have used the "SET CONSOLE TELNET" command (section 3.14 in > the user's guide). Ah, yes, I think that's what I did. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Sun Dec 31 21:13:15 2017 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 22:13:15 -0500 Subject: Message 4 on Computing from 1976 Message-ID: "Message: 4 Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 10:35:18 +1100 From: Nigel Williams To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Computing from 1976 Message-ID: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" On Sun, Dec 31, 2017 at 9:57 AM, william degnan via cctalk wrote: >> what magazine? https://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wAAAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA82 note. Popular Science Dec-1976 *** Thanks Nigel. I apologize to all for not putting this magazine name in my original note. I've been thinking this New Year's eve about the world of classic computing: How far has personal computing actually advanced? Not talking about computing on the Net or such. Just plain computing! Or is there such a thing the last day of 2017? Happy computing for 2018. Murray :) From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Dec 30 13:21:54 2017 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 30 Dec 2017 14:21:54 -0500 Subject: ID some core memory Message-ID: Just curious...can anyone id the system that used these two types of core memory? I am thinking the first is a hand-made custom core, but the 2nd is definitely from a commercial system. Looks kind of IBM-ish but it's nothing I can ID. It's not an IBM 1401 I don't think. http://vintagecomputer.net/core-memory/ Thanks Bill From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Dec 31 10:38:56 2017 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2017 11:38:56 -0500 Subject: Standalone X/Y/ZMODEM for non-PC x86 Message-ID: <1AB1D1BF-1BAB-4720-ACA0-7C453896AE73@verizon.net> All ? ??????????????? I?m looking for some x86 source code for what I?ll call a standalone version of an X/Y/ZModem (or any combination thereof) for use with a non-IBM/PC x86 machine. Many versions exist on Simtel and other archives but they are executable programs rather than source. ??????????????? The reason for the odd request is that the system that it will be used on is a Seattle Gazelle replica I built based on the one in the VCFE inventory, and the constraints are hardware/OS imposed. None of the I/O ports are at PC-compatible addresses and it has no INT-callable system BIOS. The system does run both MS-DOS 1.25 and 2.0 but the standard character I/O devices other than CON: (LPT and AUX) are mapped to parallel ports on one of the boards. COM1 and COM2 devices don?t exist. ??????????????? Ideally it should just take two command line parameters ? the file name and whether it?s a transmit/upload or receive/download transaction. I know that the protocol is fairly simple but I was looking to adapt something rather than starting from scratch. I found an implementation of XMODEM in Microsoft BASIC, but it relies on opening the COM1 device to work. I am looking into writing direct hardware access using PEEK/POKE, but I?m not there on it yet. ??????????????? If anyone has something usable in their archives, please let me know. Thanks, and Happy New Year to all! Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32