From useddec at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 00:09:03 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 00:09:03 -0500 Subject: DEC bus transceivers In-Reply-To: <20161031151217.1795818C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161031151217.1795818C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: I have thousands of NOS chips here that i hope to finish going through. I have no idea how many bus transceivers are in there. These were intended for projects I don't know if I'll ever get around to. There are a lot of NOS out there at a variety of prices. The common 74xx are mostly there and fairly cheap. I have several thousand ECLs I have little use for, and they are getting harder to find. As far as the DEC chips go, I figured if I ever ran out I would pull them off of boards that I have a lots of extras. It's been years since I've looked at the prints, but I should be able to find some DEC transceivers on boards like DZ11, MS11, MSV11, M3106, M3107, various omnibus boards etc. I know is sounds terrible, but I can cut the fingers off, sell the board for the chips, and make some room which i desperately need. Paul On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Philipp Hachtmann > > > that one posting sounded a lot like that, sorry. > > OK. > > > Do you have a source where there are still 30k chips sitting and > > waiting? > > It was ~30K a couple of months ago. I checked about a week ago, and it was > down to ~26K (IIRC). > > Although, like I said, I doubt they have all 26K in stock themselves; > based on > comments they made when we bought a large group, I think that's the total > number available to them across a number of suppliers, in a network which > shares inventory information. > > Noel > From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 00:20:07 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 00:20:07 -0500 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed Message-ID: Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks using scotch tape?? From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 00:20:07 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 00:20:07 -0500 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed Message-ID: Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks using scotch tape?? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 1 00:36:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:36:55 -0700 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6c42a7bb-4660-3a3a-c412-3ac764aa2cdb@bitsavers.org> On 10/31/16 10:20 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > How do you seal the newly made jacket? It's not necessary From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 1 00:41:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 22:41:27 -0700 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <01ba6bc0-ed65-e0a5-9800-d394ba3847a7@sydex.com> On 10/31/2016 10:20 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard > most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it > not necessary or folks using scotch tape? It's not really necessary, but use tape if it makes you feel better. I don't bother. - --Chuck From hachti at hachti.de Tue Nov 1 05:38:02 2016 From: hachti at hachti.de (Philipp Hachtmann) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:38:02 +0100 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 10/31/2016 07:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by > today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another > story. Recently Zero value? But they look nice. > So .. anyone have the manual ? I *might* have some CAMAC related stuff - what exactly are you looking for? Philipp From pete at pski.net Tue Nov 1 05:39:04 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 06:39:04 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> > Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks using scotch tape? Well, I made a number of these this weekend and I just left the end open. The hub keeps the cookie in place. Thanks to everyone for the input. So, I was able to image half of the disks without issue. The others all had a few bad tracks. On most of those I don't see any physical damage so I was wondering if there were any other techniques to possibly recover those tracks? Baking the cookie? Is there a good tool to merge tracks from multiple disks if I find another copy of the software that has the missing tracks? From pete at pski.net Tue Nov 1 05:39:04 2016 From: pete at pski.net (Peter Cetinski) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 06:39:04 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> > Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks using scotch tape? Well, I made a number of these this weekend and I just left the end open. The hub keeps the cookie in place. Thanks to everyone for the input. So, I was able to image half of the disks without issue. The others all had a few bad tracks. On most of those I don't see any physical damage so I was wondering if there were any other techniques to possibly recover those tracks? Baking the cookie? Is there a good tool to merge tracks from multiple disks if I find another copy of the software that has the missing tracks? From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 1 04:53:22 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 05:53:22 -0400 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <08500a6f-e666-12cd-8274-99fcae1bbb22@bitsavers.org> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1FC3A26434CF49198951CD6C56DE033C@Vincew7> <08500a6f-e666-12cd-8274-99fcae1bbb22@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2dd4dddf-4a2a-7e93-bf19-408dd82241b2@verizon.net> On 10/31/2016 07:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 10/31/16 3:08 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > >> Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s It also has the slushware code, aka front panel space code to do stuff on the IM6100 chip and peripherals. the 6100/6120 have two spaces front panel code space and normal PDP-8 memory. Allison > It is IBM 3740 table of contents information. > GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf for the details > > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 1 09:31:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 10:31:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FTGH: Video controller Message-ID: <20161101143127.D172518C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have an Oxford Metrics Vicon video controller box: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/VideoController.jpg FTGH. No idea what it does, I have't bothered to look for info, since I'm sure I have no use for it! Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 1 09:22:33 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 10:22:33 -0400 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> Message-ID: <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> On 11/1/16 6:39 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks using scotch tape? > Well, I made a number of these this weekend and I just left the end open. The hub keeps the cookie in place. Thanks to everyone for the input. > > So, I was able to image half of the disks without issue. The others all had a few bad tracks. On most of those I don't see any physical damage so I was wondering if there were any other techniques to possibly recover those tracks? Baking the cookie? Is there a good tool to merge tracks from multiple disks if I find another copy of the software that has the missing tracks? Depending on the on disk format and the filesystem it can be very hard to do that as you have to know the relative position in the file. What can you do for specific files is to first clean the heads, each and every time as old disks may leave abrasive crap behind and that can kill good media. The other is does the sections not readable actually contain data? Some file systems do scatter/gather so they can efficiently use the whole disk space (CP/M, DOS for PCs to name a few). Then it requires digging into the hard/software to do low level reads without error checking or despite it. For many that goes to a level well beyond trivial. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 1 10:13:05 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 11:13:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel Message-ID: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, the CHM has an RSTS-11 brochure: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-11/Digital.PDP-11.1970.102646128.pdf which shows in a couple of places (front cover, page 6, 7, 10, 11) an indicator panel which I haven't been able to identify: it's the one where there are four full-length light rows on the left, and the lower right row of lights is broken up in the three groups - small, large, small. (The other indicator panel is known, it's an an RF11). I have been searching for these panels for quite a while now, and have a page for them: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html _but_ ... I have never seen that panel. I am quite sure that it is _NOT_ an RK11-C panel; although no image of such has ever been found (I think because it was never produced - no DEC manual or print set refers to it), the RK11-C prints show the wiring for the connector to the indicator panel (which would presumably have been a standard DEC 19" x 5-1/4" panel of the kind documented on the page above), and from that it's possible to predict what it would look like, as shown here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.pdf Can anyone shed any light (no pun intended :-) on what this is? The RF11 engineering drawings list (on page 187/188) all the inserts available (as of that date) for the standard 19" x 5-1/4" indicator panel, and I don't have pictures of all of them, so it's possible this is one of them. (It's clear from the brochure that this wasn't necessarily a working system, since it appears in a number of different configurations. So maybe they just grabbed up a random indicator panel and plugged it in to make the system look cool.) One possibility is that it's a prototype that was never produced - or perhaps it was the indicator panel for an earlier RK11 controller (although I can't find any mention of an RK11-B or RK11-A, and the list above doesn't contain an RK11 entry). Anyone have any ideas? Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Tue Nov 1 12:25:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:25:23 +0000 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <701c05d9-9ce0-522c-b9f4-8ef1a0a44b4e@btinternet.com> Looking at the setup and the misalignment of some of the panels it may just a bunch of stuff for photographic purposes. Rod On 01/11/2016 15:13, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So, the CHM has an RSTS-11 brochure: > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-11/Digital.PDP-11.1970.102646128.pdf > > which shows in a couple of places (front cover, page 6, 7, 10, 11) an > indicator panel which I haven't been able to identify: it's the one where > there are four full-length light rows on the left, and the lower right row > of lights is broken up in the three groups - small, large, small. (The other > indicator panel is known, it's an an RF11). > > I have been searching for these panels for quite a while now, and have a page > for them: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > _but_ ... I have never seen that panel. > > > I am quite sure that it is _NOT_ an RK11-C panel; although no image of such > has ever been found (I think because it was never produced - no DEC manual or > print set refers to it), the RK11-C prints show the wiring for the connector > to the indicator panel (which would presumably have been a standard DEC 19" x > 5-1/4" panel of the kind documented on the page above), and from that it's > possible to predict what it would look like, as shown here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.pdf > > > Can anyone shed any light (no pun intended :-) on what this is? > > The RF11 engineering drawings list (on page 187/188) all the inserts > available (as of that date) for the standard 19" x 5-1/4" indicator panel, > and I don't have pictures of all of them, so it's possible this is one of > them. (It's clear from the brochure that this wasn't necessarily a working > system, since it appears in a number of different configurations. So maybe > they just grabbed up a random indicator panel and plugged it in to make the > system look cool.) > > One possibility is that it's a prototype that was never produced - or perhaps > it was the indicator panel for an earlier RK11 controller (although I can't > find any mention of an RK11-B or RK11-A, and the list above doesn't contain > an RK11 entry). > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Noel -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Nov 1 14:46:22 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:46:22 +0000 Subject: Soundblaster Live Card with Midi interface daughterboard, UK Message-ID: Can anyone use a Soundblaster Live card with midi daughterboard? For the cost of postage? ?4.99 in the UK. Thanks, Mark. From isking at uw.edu Tue Nov 1 14:56:55 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 12:56:55 -0700 Subject: Has anyone here seen a 8H070 external floppy? Message-ID: I bought one of these on eBay thinking it was the standard 37-pin D-connector that connects to an ISA floppy controller. No, it's a 25-pin D-connector. I can't find any references in Google aside from people selling them. I'm wondering if it might be something like a printer-port-connected device, in which case I'm probably out of luck trying to find its driver.... -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 16:12:16 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:12:16 -0400 Subject: Passing of Bunnell & Machrone Message-ID: David Bunnell and Bill Machrone of PC Magazine have passed on. They both were involved in promoting computers in its earliest day. Both will sadly be missed. Murray-- From steven at malikoff.com Tue Nov 1 17:53:09 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 08:53:09 +1000 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <33aeb0180bd197fc3b11ed09cf65b17a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> > So, the CHM has an RSTS-11 brochure: > > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-11/Digital.PDP-11.1970.102646128.pdf > > which shows in a couple of places (front cover, page 6, 7, 10, 11) an > indicator panel which I haven't been able to identify: it's the one where > there are four full-length light rows on the left, and the lower right row > of lights is broken up in the three groups - small, large, small. (The other > indicator panel is known, it's an an RF11). > > I have been searching for these panels for quite a while now, and have a page > for them: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/DECIndicatorPanels.html > > _but_ ... I have never seen that panel. > > > I am quite sure that it is _NOT_ an RK11-C panel; although no image of such > has ever been found (I think because it was never produced - no DEC manual or > print set refers to it), the RK11-C prints show the wiring for the connector > to the indicator panel (which would presumably have been a standard DEC 19" x > 5-1/4" panel of the kind documented on the page above), and from that it's > possible to predict what it would look like, as shown here: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.txt > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/RK11-C_inlay.pdf > > > Can anyone shed any light (no pun intended :-) on what this is? > > The RF11 engineering drawings list (on page 187/188) all the inserts > available (as of that date) for the standard 19" x 5-1/4" indicator panel, > and I don't have pictures of all of them, so it's possible this is one of > them. (It's clear from the brochure that this wasn't necessarily a working > system, since it appears in a number of different configurations. So maybe > they just grabbed up a random indicator panel and plugged it in to make the > system look cool.) > > One possibility is that it's a prototype that was never produced - or perhaps > it was the indicator panel for an earlier RK11 controller (although I can't > find any mention of an RK11-B or RK11-A, and the list above doesn't contain > an RK11 entry). > > Anyone have any ideas? > > Noel FWIW the layout pattern also doesn't look anything close to a drum indicator, well at least not the Foxboro-trim version shown in their doc that used the RC11 controller (M7219 through M7225). I have been looking but not yet found a picture of the DEC-trimmed RC11 etc. drum indicator panel to establish how close it is to the Fox one. The 1972 Peripherals Handbook only shows the drum part of the RC11/RS64 but no indicator panel photo. If anyone could point me to a photo of the RC11/RS64 DECdisk panel - to be honest I don't know if it even had one? - I would be grateful. I would know then if the Fox indicator panel was an own-design or a rebadged DEC item. I have the RC11 boards and the Foxboro drum interface print set but sadly no indicator panel nor drum. Foxboro used a DDC 'drum'/fixed-head disk apparently, the Fox doc shows a different drive unit to the RS64) and also a different indicator panel to the DDC offering. Steve. From AppleCorey at optonline.net Tue Nov 1 18:43:37 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 19:43:37 -0400 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item Message-ID: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction. corey cohen u??o? ???o? From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 19:12:14 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:12:14 -0700 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 > > This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction. > "PAYPAL USERS MUST WAIT COMPLETE CLEARANCE (IT CAN REQUIRES ALSO 21 DAYS)" What they heck does that mean? Not a seller I would touch with a 10 foot pole. Something seems odd about this seller "scroogemcduckbonaparte" and their cousin "paperonebonaparte", who has positive feedback for selling a "HELIOS II DISK SOL 20 8 INCHES FLOPPY WITH CONTROLLER ALTAIR ERA IMSAI S100 BUS (#272205548861)" for $1,950.00 within the last 6 months. "scroogemcduckbonaparte" has positive feedback as a buyer from "paperonebonaparte" for several items over a year ago. From doug at doughq.com Tue Nov 1 19:17:16 2016 From: doug at doughq.com (Doug Jackson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 11:17:16 +1100 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: Yep. Stay away. This seller is breaking eBay policies because that 21 days is required to allow the buyer to lodge a grievance if something is wrong. The seller should avtually be reported. Doug Jackson On 2 November 2016 11:12:14 am AEDT, Glen Slick wrote: >On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Corey Cohen >wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 >> >> This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and >then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on >this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive >or if the seller would cancel the auction. >> > >"PAYPAL USERS MUST WAIT COMPLETE CLEARANCE >(IT CAN REQUIRES ALSO 21 DAYS)" > >What they heck does that mean? Not a seller I would touch with a 10 >foot pole. > >Something seems odd about this seller "scroogemcduckbonaparte" and >their cousin "paperonebonaparte", who has positive feedback for >selling a "HELIOS II DISK SOL 20 8 INCHES FLOPPY WITH CONTROLLER >ALTAIR ERA IMSAI S100 BUS (#272205548861)" for $1,950.00 within the >last 6 months. "scroogemcduckbonaparte" has positive feedback as a >buyer from "paperonebonaparte" for several items over a year ago. -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 19:31:27 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:31:27 -0700 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: More reasons to stay away: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?29469-(not-mine)-Another-Altair-8800B-w-drive-on-feebay From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 1 19:42:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 17:42:21 -0700 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: This is the same guy that "sold" an Alto a few months ago for an insane amt of money. On 11/1/16 5:31 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > More reasons to stay away: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?29469-(not-mine)-Another-Altair-8800B-w-drive-on-feebay > From AppleCorey at optonline.net Tue Nov 1 19:56:40 2016 From: AppleCorey at optonline.net (Corey Cohen) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 20:56:40 -0400 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: <6C7B533A-1E5D-4889-95CC-9AD9217AD8DD@optonline.net> > On Nov 1, 2016, at 8:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 >> >> This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction. >> > > "PAYPAL USERS MUST WAIT COMPLETE CLEARANCE > (IT CAN REQUIRES ALSO 21 DAYS)" > > What they heck does that mean? Not a seller I would touch with a 10 foot pole. > > Something seems odd about this seller "scroogemcduckbonaparte" and > their cousin "paperonebonaparte", who has positive feedback for > selling a "HELIOS II DISK SOL 20 8 INCHES FLOPPY WITH CONTROLLER > ALTAIR ERA IMSAI S100 BUS (#272205548861)" for $1,950.00 within the > last 6 months. "scroogemcduckbonaparte" has positive feedback as a > buyer from "paperonebonaparte" for several items over a year ago. Wow that is the same unit for sale. It doesn't have the key power switch like all Helios but a replacement rocker one so you can identify it as the same unit. Ok now this is getting really interesting. My guess is his alter ego must keep winning. He is trying to drive up the price. Sure if the unit worked or was confirmed to have an intact glass scale it might be worth a a ton. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 20:13:43 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:13:43 -0400 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <6C7B533A-1E5D-4889-95CC-9AD9217AD8DD@optonline.net> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <6C7B533A-1E5D-4889-95CC-9AD9217AD8DD@optonline.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 8:56 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: > Sure if the unit worked or was confirmed to have an intact glass scale it > might be worth a a ton. > It certainly weights a ton ;) I've been watching these auctions too and now I understand the funny business with this thread. Wouldn't the potential buyers (if someone real actually won) wonder why it's back up for sale? Same seller sold the Altair 680. I wonder if that buyer ever got it as there is no feedback for the seller. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 1 20:58:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 20:58:34 -0500 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <33aeb0180bd197fc3b11ed09cf65b17a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33aeb0180bd197fc3b11ed09cf65b17a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <5819484A.4030207@pico-systems.com> >> So, the CHM has an RSTS-11 brochure: >> >> http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-11/Digital.PDP-11.1970.102646128.pdf >> >> which shows in a couple of places (front cover, page 6, 7, 10, 11) an >> indicator panel which I haven't been able to identify: These look VERY posed, so don't be sure ANYTHING in the picture was a fully working system. If those panels look like something off a KA10 controller, then they very well could be. Remember IBM and a few other vendors have had publications that had plywood mockups of systems that bore LITTLE resemblance to the production versions. Also, some IBM publications (where I'm more familiar with their models) had some photos of machines that probably were in-house prototypes that were quite different than the production version. 1970 was in the VERY early days of the PDP-11, and they may have hacked up device controls from other models with different word lengths, so as to have working gear for software development. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 1 20:59:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 20:59:54 -0500 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: <5819489A.70004@pico-systems.com> On 11/01/2016 07:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 >> >> This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction. >> > "PAYPAL USERS MUST WAIT COMPLETE CLEARANCE > (IT CAN REQUIRES ALSO 21 DAYS)" > > What they heck does that mean? Not a seller I would touch with a 10 foot pole. > > That violates PayPal rules. You MUST ship within 7 days or you are in violation. Jon From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Nov 1 21:27:00 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 19:27:00 -0700 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item Message-ID: I've been wondering about that one myself. ?Very odd. ?That's not the first time I've seen that either. Along with stuff that 'sells' for absurd amounts of money. At first I though the absurd sales were attempts to manipulate the market.. but it doesn't seem worth the effort or ebay fees. ?I almost kind of wonder with some of them if something more sinister is going on.. like money laundering. ?That'd be a fairly obscure way to do it.. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Corey Cohen Date: 2016-11-01 4:43 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again.? I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction.? corey cohen u??o? ???o? From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 22:13:57 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 22:13:57 -0500 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: One thing is for certain: If it's in eBay's financial interest (page hits, insertion and final value fees), and they can plausibly deny any liability or other involvement, they will just let it ride - and the often highly-touted TOS (aka "the rules") be damned. In short - If they can skim a little profit off of others' crookery, whilst keeping their own hands clean - they can and will allow it - always, and without notable exception. Period. On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 9:27 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > I've been wondering about that one myself. Very odd. That's not the > first time I've seen that either. Along with stuff that 'sells' for absurd > amounts of money. > At first I though the absurd sales were attempts to manipulate the > market.. but it doesn't seem worth the effort or ebay fees. I almost kind > of wonder with some of them if something more sinister is going on.. like > money laundering. That'd be a fairly obscure way to do it.. > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Corey Cohen > Date: 2016-11-01 4:43 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 > > This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then > suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each > time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the > seller would cancel the auction. > > corey cohen > u??o? ???o? From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 23:47:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 22:47:56 -0600 Subject: Passing of Bunnell & Machrone In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:12 PM, Murray McCullough < c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com> wrote: > David Bunnell and Bill Machrone of PC Magazine have passed on. They > both were involved in promoting computers in its earliest day. > I don't intend to disparage their actual accomplishments, but AFAIK neither one had anything whatsoever to do with "promoting computers in its earliest day." From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 1 23:50:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:50:37 -0700 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed In-Reply-To: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> Message-ID: <291e71ce-06da-ba4e-d1d5-432c4836d8cc@sydex.com> On 11/01/2016 03:39 AM, Peter Cetinski wrote: >> Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard >> most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it >> not necessary or folks using scotch tape? > > Well, I made a number of these this weekend and I just left the end > open. The hub keeps the cookie in place. Thanks to everyone for the > input. > > So, I was able to image half of the disks without issue. The others > all had a few bad tracks. On most of those I don't see any physical > damage so I was wondering if there were any other techniques to > possibly recover those tracks? Baking the cookie? Is there a good > tool to merge tracks from multiple disks if I find another copy of > the software that has the missing tracks? If the errors accumulate on the middle-to-inner tracks, consider the possibility that the original drive's alignment may not match that of the drive you're using to read them. On several occasions, I've had to "un/disk-align" a drive to get decent results on certain disks. --Chuck From todd.george at gmail.com Tue Nov 1 14:35:01 2016 From: todd.george at gmail.com (Todd George) Date: Tue, 01 Nov 2016 19:35:01 +0000 Subject: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed Message-ID: Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 06:39:04 -0400 From: Peter Cetinski To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Cc: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed > Well, I made a number of these this weekend and I just left the end open. The hub > keeps the cookie in place. Thanks to everyone for the input. > > So, I was able to image half of the disks without issue. The others all had a few > bad tracks. On most of those I don't see any physical damage so I was wondering > if there were any other techniques to possibly recover those tracks? Baking the > cookie? Is there a good tool to merge tracks from multiple disks if I find another > copy of the software that has the missing tracks? Pete: I've had pretty good luck during a data restoration project by ensuring the drive heads are clean and then also cleaning the cookie VERY GENTLY with good quality rubbing alcohol (I'm using 91%, some say you should use better stuff) on a cotton ball. My method has been to put the cookie on a clean, dry, soft surface. The disks I'm working on are Apple ][, so flippy (if the jacket is punched), otherwise I only need to concentrate on the "bottom" side of the cookie. Essentially, the side without the hub ring. I use a very fine-tipped needle top bottle (found it in the baking section of a local big-name craft store) and apply a reasonable amount of rubbing alcohol then use a fresh cotton swab and gently clean the surface. Depending on how it goes, I'll clean it a second time. Note, some of the disks look just fine, but still have some issue reading. This cleaning process has been highly successful (maybe 85%?) for me even with disks that looked clean. Also, on a few prior attempts I've had inexplicable results in trying different drives. I don't know if alignments, speeds, magnetic sensitivity or other factors were at play but it's worth trying as another trick to have in the collection. Sometimes it worked better, sometimes it was worse. I am not 100% sure, but I thought the "baking" was for media that was shedding or at some risk of having a physical issue with delamination, etc. Also, I can't really help on the merging question. I'd think you could just cut the resulting images together using a hex editor or similar. Naturally, you'd have to know where the bad parts were in the file. Maybe you could start with a 'fc /b filename.bin filename.bin' at a Windows command prompt, note the offsets of differences between multiple reads and visually compare those sections in a hex editor? Good luck with the data restoration! See ya. -Todd From mark at matlockfamily.com Tue Nov 1 21:20:45 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Tue, 1 Nov 2016 21:20:45 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 29, Issue 1 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <43917170-89BC-4CDC-932D-0A57504FEC21@MatlockFamily.com> > Date: Mon, 31 Oct 2016 10:48:56 -0400 > From: Paul Koning > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus > System > Message-ID: > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > > >> On Oct 31, 2016, at 10:26 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need to >> load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak? The data would be on >> the tape drives, and something on stand by to re-load the OS back into core. > > Only if the OS implements the ability to resume from a power failure without reloading from disk or tape. Few do. Perhaps some flavors of RSX, I don't know. RSTS V4A, when built with the power fail handling option, could do so. Later versions do not; they unconditionally reboot (from disk) at powerup. > > paul RSX-11M and M+ did resume from power failures very robustly. I had a PDP-11/44 with batteries for the MOS RAM (and fans to cool it) with RK07 drives. I can remember testing it by pulling the power with a number of applications runnings including editors etc. The disks would yank the heads back and spin down, then when the power was restored and the drives spun up, it was like it never happened. I might see an entry or two in the error log file about a disk retry, and a user might loose a keystroke on the file they were editing but it absolutely was solid. I don't know of a single modern operating system that can do that today. RSX-11M+ can run TCP/IP today with Johnny Billquist's BQTCP package but it dies require I/D space processors. M+ itself can run on a 11/23+ or 11/24 but it really needs more than 128KW and the lack of I/D space really limits its capabilities. Mark From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Nov 2 04:27:23 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 10:27:23 +0100 Subject: MACRO11 Message-ID: Hi, my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex notation instead of octal. I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern logic analyzer. Joerg From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 2 07:58:15 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 08:58:15 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel Message-ID: <20161102125815.C069818C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Steven Malikoff > I have been looking but not yet found a picture of the DEC-trimmed RC11 > ... If anyone could point me to a photo of the RC11/RS64 DECdisk panel > to be honest I don't know if it even had one? I'm not sure it did. The list of available inserts (in the Indicator Panel Assembly drawings, available in the RF11 prints, pp. 186-190) doesn't list an RC11 insert, and that list does include the RF11, which is a later controller than the RC11. I tried looking online for RC11 engineering drawings, to see if it included an indicator panel connector (the way the RK11-C does), but I could not find _anything_ substantial about the RC11 online. > From: Jon Elson > These look VERY posed, so don't be sure ANYTHING in the picture was a > fully working system. Yeah, I'd come to that conclusion... > If those panels look like something off a KA10 controller Well, I'm not sure. Most PDP-10 gear had rows of 36 lights, which is the full width of these 19" indicator panels (i.e. every light in a row - like the top row of the RP11 panel, see the page for an image), and I don't see that in this one. But I suppose I should try and round up images of 19" x 5-1/4" PDP-10 panels, too (ISTR that there are a few). Noel From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 2 07:35:08 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 08:35:08 -0400 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> Message-ID: <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> All, Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter board for the Prompt-48. Allison From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 2 09:20:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 10:20:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FTGH: "Screw Terminal/Signal Conditioning" panel Message-ID: <20161102142053.1A24218C099@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So I have a "Screw Terminal/Signal Conditioning" panel made by Data Translation; includes some cables and mongo connectors: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/jpg/CablePanel.jpg FTGH. Again, no idea what it does, I have't bothered to look for info, since I'm sure I have no use for it! Please, take this and the video controller: http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2016-November/029102.html off my hands! Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 2 09:40:08 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 10:40:08 -0400 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <33aeb0180bd197fc3b11ed09cf65b17a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <20161101151305.2463C18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <33aeb0180bd197fc3b11ed09cf65b17a.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <55AF39FD-5876-4235-BD83-0EBC6656639D@comcast.net> > On Nov 1, 2016, at 6:53 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > >> ... > I have been looking but not yet found a picture of the DEC-trimmed RC11 etc. drum > indicator panel to establish how close it is to the Fox one. The 1972 Peripherals > Handbook only shows the drum part of the RC11/RS64 but no indicator panel photo. > If anyone could point me to a photo of the RC11/RS64 DECdisk panel - to be honest > I don't know if it even had one? The one I used in college (on the physics department 11/20) did not have a display panel. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 09:08:37 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 14:08:37 +0000 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net>, <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> Message-ID: You are aware that the 8755A and 8755 are programmed differently? I believe the adapter is only for the 8755A. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of allison Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 5:35:08 AM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 All, Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter board for the Prompt-48. Allison From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 2 10:24:08 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 10:24:08 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> On 10/31/2016 01:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by > today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another > story. Recently > I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate > Controller . > A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. > > The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, > > Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then > anything. > > So .. anyone have the manual ? > > (*) - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control > I have a 3922 crate controller and a 3953 auxiliary crate controller at work. I also have manuals for the 3911 PDP-11 crate controller and 2912 LSI-11 bus adapter and the 3953. These have schematics in them. I THINK the 3912 may be an LSI-11 (QBus) controller, not Unibus. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 2 11:52:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 09:52:30 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <80607240-9891-62e7-89a3-1aa08f400900@bitsavers.org> I'd like to add them to bitsavers if you can scan them. I just threw out most of the CAMAC stuff that I had. Weird Stuff should have two crates that I dumped off yesterday. I was going to use it for reading tapes, but it doesn't make sense given the higher performace inexpensive A/Ds you can get today. I did try to find docs when I was looking for this stuff 10 years ago, so there is some stuff under pdf/kinetics and others. On 11/2/16 8:24 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > I have a 3922 crate controller and a 3953 auxiliary crate controller at work. I also have manuals for the 3911 PDP-11 > crate controller and 2912 LSI-11 bus adapter and the 3953. These have schematics in them. > From blstuart at bellsouth.net Wed Nov 2 12:10:36 2016 From: blstuart at bellsouth.net (Brian L. Stuart) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 17:10:36 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel References: <912074999.508283.1478106636876.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <912074999.508283.1478106636876@mail.yahoo.com> On Tue, 11/1/16, Jon Elson wrote: >? Also, some IBM publications (where I'm more > familiar with their models) had some photos > of machines that probably were in-house > prototypes that were quite different than the > production version. Along the same lines, the picture in the original PDP-8 manual was of a machine that had a front panel that looked more like the PDP-5 panel than the one shipped on the 8s. Given how close the machines were in architecture, it wouldn't be surprising for a prototype. As it turns out, I saw the picture in the manual a few years before I ever saw a real straight-8. To this day, the real straight-8s look a little "wrong" to me. BLS From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 2 11:30:13 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 12:30:13 -0400 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> Message-ID: On 11/2/16 10:08 AM, dwight wrote: > You are aware that the 8755A and 8755 are programmed differently? Yes. I also have both so not an issue. Doesn't hurt that I was an microprocessors and peripherals aps-engineer when both were the drug on the market so I know the difference and how to do either. I'm more interested in 8755A as I have a few tubes of virgin NEC parts. > I believe the adapter is only for the 8755A. It is. The 8755 is the generic name as they were replaced by the 8755A fairly early in the parts life. Its likely I have to build it as they are scarce and fairly simple. The Intel schematic is helpful in it saves me time I may end of designing it myself. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of allison > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 5:35:08 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 > > All, > > Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter > board for the Prompt-48. > > > Allison > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 2 12:53:18 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 10:53:18 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: In a past life I did quite a few Test & Measurement setups, started with dedicated I/O, then added GPIB, and later VXI Always enjoyed the challenge of automating stimulus and measurement. In the mid 90s I helped add GPIB to a NIM & CAMAC setup. But never got to really play with any of the instruments. For 'fun' I want to setup and NIM Bin and CAMAC Crate and since my days of connecting to a computer started with a PDP-11. But unless a Unibus box shows up that's for another rainy season. Anyone with a NIM Bin or CAMAC Create they don't want and is near Portland Oregon (due to weight and size) ? On another vector, it is sad to see that there is not a 'bitsavers' for NIM & CAMAC. -pete On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 8:24 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 10/31/2016 01:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > >> Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by >> today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another >> story. Recently >> I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate >> Controller . >> A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. >> >> The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, >> >> Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then >> anything. >> >> So .. anyone have the manual ? >> >> (*) - >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control >> >> I have a 3922 crate controller and a 3953 auxiliary crate controller at > work. I also have manuals for the 3911 PDP-11 crate controller and 2912 > LSI-11 bus adapter and the 3953. These have schematics in them. > > I THINK the 3912 may be an LSI-11 (QBus) controller, not Unibus. > > Jon > > From useddec at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 14:32:48 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 14:32:48 -0500 Subject: FTGH: "Screw Terminal/Signal Conditioning" panel Message-ID: Have a few minutes? Paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 2 13:18:05 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 18:18:05 +0000 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> , Message-ID: It had been a long time since I'd worked at Intel but I recall having to use a different UPP board for each. I worked on the UPP with the 4040 uP. I was a test engineer for its end of life. Debugging these was a pain in the butt so I made what I called a slowtime-ice. I'd replace the 4004 with my umbilical and talk to the various 4002s and 4001. Although, I wasn't suppose to, I had a dump of the ROMs to compare with. We were our own last customer to order 4001s. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of allison Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 9:30:13 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Prompt-475 On 11/2/16 10:08 AM, dwight wrote: > You are aware that the 8755A and 8755 are programmed differently? Yes. I also have both so not an issue. Doesn't hurt that I was an microprocessors and peripherals aps-engineer when both were the drug on the market so I know the difference and how to do either. I'm more interested in 8755A as I have a few tubes of virgin NEC parts. > I believe the adapter is only for the 8755A. It is. The 8755 is the generic name as they were replaced by the 8755A fairly early in the parts life. Its likely I have to build it as they are scarce and fairly simple. The Intel schematic is helpful in it saves me time I may end of designing it myself. > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of allison > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 5:35:08 AM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 > > All, > > Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter > board for the Prompt-48. > > > Allison > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Nov 2 18:38:22 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 23:38:22 +0000 Subject: VAX/VMS Pascal, Modula-3, Oberon, what could have been.... Message-ID: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> I recently discovered the very excellent website http://pascal.hansotten.com devoted to all things Wirth. I sent a message to the author, as detailed below, but I would encourage anyone to visit the website - you will surely learn something? Greetings from Windermere in the Lake District, England! I read with interest your interview with John Reagan. His efforts on the VAX Pascal Compiler, and more recently (well, in the last few years or so) my discovery of the very excellent Theo De Klerk book on VAX Pascal and it's excellent integration with the VMS operating system have rekindled my love of this excellent implementation of Pascal. I am the organiser of declegacy.org.uk - a 'mostly' annual event here in Windermere where collectors of DEC equipment and ex-employees gather to immerse themselves once again in the excellence of product that was the result of DEC Engineering. I have tried a couple of times to 'entice' John to provide a video narrative of his time at DEC - but, thankfully, he is still a very busy man. At DEC Legacy this time around for example I was very fortunate to find myself in the 'programming zone' for a couple of hours - sat at a VT terminal, trying to determine why my VAX Macro-32 fractal generation programme would not run successfully on a DEC Alpha via the VAX Macro Compiler. For those precious moments I could have been sat at a piece of DEC equipment anywhere in the world. For a programmer this is just intoxicating and all too rare these days. I have a long standing interest in the legacy of Wirth - and indeed DEC, as could be expected. When I was considering a programming language for my PhD efforts on a DEC 3000/600 AXP running Digital Unix 3.2C in 1994 I would have been better using Modula-3 and ignoring the C-based Khoros framework which was the path I eventual took (C was a 'better the devil you know' option at that point). From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Wed Nov 2 18:47:36 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 23:47:36 +0000 Subject: VAX/VMS Pascal, Modula-3, Oberon, what could have been.... In-Reply-To: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: This is a photo of myself (and the extremely more capable Matt) 'in the programming zone': https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNaw7BXGu1qeLDrin_azJmz9Fie3rE6S2NgK3q0NDcqkLoaO3adZ-4lm5xlBjv6VA/photo/AF1QipM44fJM0dGKL3z5NQU6PlYX2Um8VfHLNDOSy_3T?key=cmxCQ0JDLW5zQkpLNkhFbldOaGNSaUtVejVRLTJB On 11/2/2016 11:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I recently discovered the very excellent website > http://pascal.hansotten.com devoted to all things Wirth. > > I sent a message to the author, as detailed below, but I would > encourage anyone to visit the website - you will surely learn something? > > Greetings from Windermere in the Lake District, England! > > I read with interest your interview with John Reagan. His efforts on > the VAX Pascal Compiler, and more recently (well, in the last few > years or so) my discovery of the very excellent Theo De Klerk book on > VAX Pascal and it's excellent integration with the VMS operating > system have rekindled my love of this excellent implementation of Pascal. > > I am the organiser of declegacy.org.uk - a 'mostly' annual event here > in Windermere where collectors of DEC equipment and ex-employees > gather to immerse themselves once again in the excellence of product > that was the result of DEC Engineering. I have tried a couple of times > to 'entice' John to provide a video narrative of his time at DEC - > but, thankfully, he is still a very busy man. > > At DEC Legacy this time around for example I was very fortunate to > find myself in the 'programming zone' for a couple of hours - sat at a > VT terminal, trying to determine why my VAX Macro-32 fractal > generation programme would not run successfully on a DEC Alpha via the > VAX Macro Compiler. For those precious moments I could have been sat > at a piece of DEC equipment anywhere in the world. For a programmer > this is just intoxicating and all too rare these days. > > I have a long standing interest in the legacy of Wirth - and indeed > DEC, as could be expected. When I was considering a programming > language for my PhD efforts on a DEC 3000/600 AXP running Digital Unix > 3.2C in 1994 I would have been better using Modula-3 and ignoring the > C-based Khoros framework which was the path I eventual took (C was a > 'better the devil you know' option at that point). > > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 2 20:16:51 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:16:51 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <80607240-9891-62e7-89a3-1aa08f400900@bitsavers.org> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> <80607240-9891-62e7-89a3-1aa08f400900@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <581A9003.2010401@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2016 11:52 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'd like to add them to bitsavers if you can scan them. > > I just threw out most of the CAMAC stuff that I had. Weird Stuff should have two crates that I dumped off yesterday. Well, the drawings are big sheets (at least C size) diazo prints in really awful condition. You've probably seen these, they take the master engineering drawings, diazo duplicate, eradicate old circuits and draw in new, and repeat for 5+ generations, and they get almost unreadable. So, I'm not sure what results I'd get, but I'd have to do it in little panels and then assemble. It might be better to send it to somebody with better equipment. We still use a bit of CAMAC only because we have the infrastructure to do it. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 2 20:20:04 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:20:04 -0500 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <912074999.508283.1478106636876@mail.yahoo.com> References: <912074999.508283.1478106636876.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <912074999.508283.1478106636876@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <581A90C4.1000709@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2016 12:10 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > On Tue, 11/1/16, Jon Elson wrote: >> Also, some IBM publications (where I'm more >> familiar with their models) had some photos >> of machines that probably were in-house >> prototypes that were quite different than the >> production version. > > Along the same lines, the picture in the original PDP-8 > manual was of a machine that had a front panel that > looked more like the PDP-5 panel than the one shipped > on the 8s. Given how close the machines were in > architecture, it wouldn't be surprising for a prototype. > As it turns out, I saw the picture in the manual a few > years before I ever saw a real straight-8. To this day, > the real straight-8s look a little "wrong" to me. > > BLS > Yup, in fact, I think you could turn a PDP-5 into a PDP-8 with about 25 boards (one tray of system building blocks) and some wire. Mostly, add an electronic instruction counter register and alter the instruction fetch logic to stop accessing location zero. That's the only difference visible to the programmer, I think. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 2 20:23:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:23:35 -0500 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <581A9197.60705@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2016 12:53 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > In a past life I did quite a few Test & Measurement setups, started with > dedicated I/O, then added GPIB, and later VXI > Always enjoyed the challenge of automating stimulus and measurement. > > In the mid 90s I helped add GPIB to a NIM & CAMAC setup. But never got to > really play with any of the instruments. > > For 'fun' I want to setup and NIM Bin and CAMAC Crate and since my days of > connecting to a computer started with a PDP-11. But unless a Unibus box > shows up that's for another rainy season. > > Anyone with a NIM Bin or CAMAC Create they don't want and is near Portland > Oregon (due to weight and size) ? > > On another vector, it is sad to see that there is not a 'bitsavers' for NIM > & CAMAC. > > This gear DOES turn up frequently on eBay for reasonable prices. We supply our lab's needs for replacement bins and crates that way. I used to build CAMAC modules for nuclear research as a business. I made my own crate and crate controller for module testing. It was just the backplane, no card slots, which was fine to have access to probe the boards. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 2 20:30:41 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Nov 2016 20:30:41 -0500 Subject: VAX/VMS Pascal, Modula-3, Oberon, what could have been.... In-Reply-To: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> References: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> Message-ID: <581A9341.8030507@pico-systems.com> On 11/02/2016 06:38 PM, Mark Wickens wrote: > I recently discovered the very excellent website > http://pascal.hansotten.com devoted to all things Wirth. > I did a lot of work in Pascal on VAX and Windows systems in the '80s or so, and have some legacy programs that were in use until recently. I was VERY pleased to discover FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) which implements the Borland and DEC extensions very well. A big program that was one of the last Pascal programs I wrote in Borland turbo Pascal for Windows converted Gerber photoplotting language to a raster file. I was able to get it recompiled on Linux using FPC in just a few days, and it runs fine (better in fact than the original). And, of course, it is again maintainable! Jon From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 22:39:37 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:39:37 -0600 Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel In-Reply-To: <581A90C4.1000709@pico-systems.com> References: <912074999.508283.1478106636876.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <912074999.508283.1478106636876@mail.yahoo.com> <581A90C4.1000709@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Yup, in fact, I think you could turn a PDP-5 into a PDP-8 with about 25 > boards > (one tray of system building blocks) and some wire. Mostly, add an > electronic > instruction counter register and alter the instruction fetch logic to stop > accessing > location zero. That's the only difference visible to the programmer, I > think. > And changing the interrupt location, which IIRC was 0001 on the PDP-5. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 22:42:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 21:42:35 -0600 Subject: VAX/VMS Pascal, Modula-3, Oberon, what could have been.... In-Reply-To: <581A9341.8030507@pico-systems.com> References: <6f3b4109-f25d-9c96-a246-36bd79135e76@wickensonline.co.uk> <581A9341.8030507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 7:30 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > I was VERY pleased to discover FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) which implements > the Borland and DEC extensions very well. > On the other hand, I *despise* that they've conflated pointers with arrays, like C does. In "real" Pascal, you can certainly have a pointer to an array, but you have to declare it that way. You can't index pointers. From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 2 15:50:07 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 14:50:07 -0600 Subject: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's In-Reply-To: <2dd4dddf-4a2a-7e93-bf19-408dd82241b2@verizon.net> References: <20161031135520.1276F18C0C9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <1FC3A26434CF49198951CD6C56DE033C@Vincew7> <08500a6f-e666-12cd-8274-99fcae1bbb22@bitsavers.org> <2dd4dddf-4a2a-7e93-bf19-408dd82241b2@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 3:53 AM, allison wrote: > On 10/31/2016 07:45 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 10/31/16 3:08 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > > >> Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s > > It also has the slushware code, aka front panel space code to do > stuff on the IM6100 chip and peripherals. the 6100/6120 > have two spaces front panel code space and normal PDP-8 memory. Isn't the slushware on the last two tracks of the disk, rather than on track 0? From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 2 21:40:11 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 19:40:11 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <581A9197.60705@pico-systems.com> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> <581A9197.60705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: For me starting in my early 20's at a Test & Measurement company, (btw at one time has to option to buy DEC) and being in the division that stuck a PDP11/40 (eventually a 11/84) in a rack along a bunch of T&M I've been from time to time collecting, specially from what I consider the boom years, the mid 60's to the 70's. Just like the place I worked and the half dozen NIM/Camac companies the lives of those who made other a success are the unsung hero's. d On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/02/2016 12:53 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > >> In a past life I did quite a few Test & Measurement setups, started with >> dedicated I/O, then added GPIB, and later VXI >> Always enjoyed the challenge of automating stimulus and measurement. >> >> In the mid 90s I helped add GPIB to a NIM & CAMAC setup. But never got to >> really play with any of the instruments. >> >> For 'fun' I want to setup and NIM Bin and CAMAC Crate and since my days of >> connecting to a computer started with a PDP-11. But unless a Unibus box >> shows up that's for another rainy season. >> >> Anyone with a NIM Bin or CAMAC Create they don't want and is near Portland >> Oregon (due to weight and size) ? >> >> On another vector, it is sad to see that there is not a 'bitsavers' for >> NIM >> & CAMAC. >> >> >> This gear DOES turn up frequently on eBay for reasonable prices. We > supply our lab's needs for replacement bins and crates that way. I used to > build CAMAC modules for nuclear research as a business. I made my own > crate and crate controller for module testing. It was just the backplane, > no card slots, which was fine to have access to probe the boards. > > Jon > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 2 21:41:45 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 2 Nov 2016 19:41:45 -0700 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <581A9197.60705@pico-systems.com> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> <581A9197.60705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: For me starting in my early 20's at a Test & Measurement company, (btw at one time has to option to buy DEC) and being in the division that stuck a PDP11/40 (eventually a 11/84) in a rack along a bunch of T&M I've been from time to time collecting, specially from what I consider the boom years, the mid 60's to the 70's. Just like the place I worked and the half dozen NIM/Camac companies the lives of those who made other a success are the unsung hero's. On Wed, Nov 2, 2016 at 6:23 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/02/2016 12:53 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > >> In a past life I did quite a few Test & Measurement setups, started with >> dedicated I/O, then added GPIB, and later VXI >> Always enjoyed the challenge of automating stimulus and measurement. >> >> In the mid 90s I helped add GPIB to a NIM & CAMAC setup. But never got to >> really play with any of the instruments. >> >> For 'fun' I want to setup and NIM Bin and CAMAC Crate and since my days of >> connecting to a computer started with a PDP-11. But unless a Unibus box >> shows up that's for another rainy season. >> >> Anyone with a NIM Bin or CAMAC Create they don't want and is near Portland >> Oregon (due to weight and size) ? >> >> On another vector, it is sad to see that there is not a 'bitsavers' for >> NIM >> & CAMAC. >> >> >> This gear DOES turn up frequently on eBay for reasonable prices. We > supply our lab's needs for replacement bins and crates that way. I used to > build CAMAC modules for nuclear research as a business. I made my own > crate and crate controller for module testing. It was just the backplane, > no card slots, which was fine to have access to probe the boards. > > Jon > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Nov 3 09:24:35 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 10:24:35 -0400 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> Message-ID: <4f5bebf4-f414-503a-26fd-d27bb7fe32ba@verizon.net> On 11/2/16 2:18 PM, dwight wrote: > It had been a long time since I'd worked at Intel > > but I recall having to use a different UPP board for each. I worked for NEC microcomputers.... The other guys. IT was a few lifetimes ago, before DEC. > I worked on the UPP with the 4040 uP. We had a MDS with UPP and a few others in the lad for those times we needed comparative testing. > I was a test engineer for its end of life. Debugging these was > > a pain in the butt so I made what I called a slowtime-ice. > > I'd replace the 4004 with my umbilical and talk to the various > > 4002s and 4001. Although, I wasn't suppose to, I had a dump > > of the ROMs to compare with. > > We were our own last customer to order 4001s. ;) Yes knowing how and doing was sometimes important to know it it even worked! That and some of the micros and such had some very strange things to be done to pump them. Allison > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of allison > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 9:30:13 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for Prompt-475 > > On 11/2/16 10:08 AM, dwight wrote: >> You are aware that the 8755A and 8755 are programmed differently? > Yes. I also have both so not an issue. Doesn't hurt that I was an > microprocessors and peripherals aps-engineer > when both were the drug on the market so I know the difference and how > to do either. I'm more interested in > 8755A as I have a few tubes of virgin NEC parts. >> I believe the adapter is only for the 8755A. > It is. The 8755 is the generic name as they were replaced by the 8755A > fairly early in the parts life. > Its likely I have to build it as they are scarce and fairly simple. The > Intel schematic is helpful in it saves > me time I may end of designing it myself. > >> Dwight >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctech on behalf of allison >> Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 5:35:08 AM >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 >> >> All, >> >> Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter >> board for the Prompt-48. >> >> >> Allison >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 3 09:42:46 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:42:46 +0000 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: <4f5bebf4-f414-503a-26fd-d27bb7fe32ba@verizon.net> References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> , <4f5bebf4-f414-503a-26fd-d27bb7fe32ba@verizon.net> Message-ID: The UPP had a bug that was never fixed. The level for the reset was inverted for the 4040 from the 4004. They'd used a slow transistor to create the inverter but released the 4040 before the 4001's. The first few fetches would sometimes send it to strange places in the code. The fix was simple, release the 4001 resets before the 4040. The problem was in an app note. Their solution was to put a few NOPs at the start of the code. It worked most of the time. Of course, as an end of life, I don't think it ever got fixed. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of allison Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 7:24:35 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Prompt-475 On 11/2/16 2:18 PM, dwight wrote: > It had been a long time since I'd worked at Intel > > but I recall having to use a different UPP board for each. I worked for NEC microcomputers.... The other guys. IT was a few lifetimes ago, before DEC. > I worked on the UPP with the 4040 uP. We had a MDS with UPP and a few others in the lad for those times we needed comparative testing. > I was a test engineer for its end of life. Debugging these was > > a pain in the butt so I made what I called a slowtime-ice. > > I'd replace the 4004 with my umbilical and talk to the various > > 4002s and 4001. Although, I wasn't suppose to, I had a dump > > of the ROMs to compare with. > > We were our own last customer to order 4001s. ;) Yes knowing how and doing was sometimes important to know it it even worked! That and some of the micros and such had some very strange things to be done to pump them. Allison > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of allison > Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 9:30:13 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for Prompt-475 > > On 11/2/16 10:08 AM, dwight wrote: >> You are aware that the 8755A and 8755 are programmed differently? > Yes. I also have both so not an issue. Doesn't hurt that I was an > microprocessors and peripherals aps-engineer > when both were the drug on the market so I know the difference and how > to do either. I'm more interested in > 8755A as I have a few tubes of virgin NEC parts. >> I believe the adapter is only for the 8755A. > It is. The 8755 is the generic name as they were replaced by the 8755A > fairly early in the parts life. > Its likely I have to build it as they are scarce and fairly simple. The > Intel schematic is helpful in it saves > me time I may end of designing it myself. > >> Dwight >> >> >> ________________________________ >> From: cctech on behalf of allison >> Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2016 5:35:08 AM >> To: cctech at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 >> >> All, >> >> Looking for the schematic for Intel PROMPT-475, this is the 8755 adapter >> board for the Prompt-48. >> >> >> Allison >> > From mole42 at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 09:37:42 2016 From: mole42 at gmail.com (Richard) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:37:42 +0000 Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi to everyone, I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at all. Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? Richard Bristol, UK From rickb at bensene.com Thu Nov 3 10:51:53 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 08:51:53 -0700 Subject: QIC-150 1/4" Cartridge Drive with Emulex MT-02 SCSI-QIC Controller? Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> Hello, all, Question of the day: Will an Emulex MT-02 SCSI->QIC tape controller work with a Wangtek 5150EQ (QIC-150) Tape Drive? I am trying to resurrect an old Tektronix 4132 Unix workstation. The 1/4" Wangtek 5099EQ drive that was in the machine was toast, something on the drive's electronics went POP when it powered on the first time, and it is no longer being recognized by the MT-02 controller. I have documentation on the drive, and will probably look into seeing if I can fix whatever fried, but in the short-term, I have a Wangtek 5150EQ with a good drive wheel, and was wondering if this drive would function with the MT-02 and be useful on the machine. I have a bunch of old (1980's) QIC-24 tapes written with the old 5099EQ drive that I want to look through and archive in a different form. And yes...I know about the tension band issues with old 1/4" QIC media...I've got a bunch of new tension bands and have become quite adept at replacing them and assuring the proper tension on the tape. Wishing all a peaceful day, -Rick -- Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From auringer at tds.net Thu Nov 3 11:02:02 2016 From: auringer at tds.net (Jon Auringer) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 11:02:02 -0500 Subject: QIC-150 1/4" Cartridge Drive with Emulex MT-02 SCSI-QIC Controller? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <5810add1-645e-27c7-a7e3-6e137a35e309@tds.net> Hi Rick, On 2016-11-03 10:51 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > ...I've got a bunch of new tension bands I don't have an answer to your question, but am curious as to where you acquired the replacements. Thanks, -Jon From mazzinia at tin.it Thu Nov 3 11:05:13 2016 From: mazzinia at tin.it (Mazzini Alessandro) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 17:05:13 +0100 Subject: R: What interest in a In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <004c01d235ec$0fe22ac0$2fa68040$@tin.it> Hi, very interesting machine. I've always been a fan of hp-ux... How much would you think it's going to cost, to ship to Italy ? ( near Milan ) Alessandro -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Richard Inviato: gioved? 3 novembre 2016 15:38 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: What interest in a Hi to everyone, I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at all. Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? Richard Bristol, UK From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 3 11:09:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:09:06 -0700 Subject: QIC-150 1/4" Cartridge Drive with Emulex MT-02 SCSI-QIC Controller? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On 11/3/16 8:51 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Hello, all, > > Question of the day: > > Will an Emulex MT-02 SCSI->QIC tape controller work with a Wangtek 5150EQ (QIC-150) Tape Drive? > I don't think so. The MT-02 supported QIC-11 and 24 formats, and the 5150 uses QIC-150, so I think it's going to get confused by the extra tracks. You might try bypassing the MT-02 if you've got a SCSI QIC drive. I don't know how dependent the Tek is on the Emulex flavor of SCSI command set. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 3 11:11:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:11:29 -0700 Subject: QIC-150 1/4" Cartridge Drive with Emulex MT-02 SCSI-QIC Controller? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <1202c255-bcad-b4f7-d09f-bb5733944e94@bitsavers.org> On 11/3/16 8:51 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > I have a bunch of old (1980's) QIC-24 tapes written with the old 5099EQ drive that I want to look through and archive in a different form. > I would really suggest doing this on a more modern machine with a Tandberg Data SCSI drive. From js at cimmeri.com Thu Nov 3 11:53:50 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 03 Nov 2016 11:53:50 -0500 Subject: QIC-150 1/4" Cartridge Drive with Emulex MT-02 SCSI-QIC Controller? In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4A8@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <581B6B9E.1010008@cimmeri.com> On 11/3/2016 10:51 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Will an Emulex MT-02 SCSI->QIC tape controller work with a Wangtek 5150EQ (QIC-150) Tape Drive? I'd give it a try as I think it might. The 5150 can read the earlier formats fine. - J. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 12:31:44 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 18:31:44 +0100 Subject: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller In-Reply-To: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> References: <581A0518.50607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <070701d235f8$25b0a1e0$7111e5a0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson > Sent: 02 November 2016 16:24 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate > Controller > > On 10/31/2016 01:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by > > today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's > > another story. Recently I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A > > Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller . > > A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane. > > > > The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there, > > > > Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then > > anything. > > > > So .. anyone have the manual ? > > > > (*) - > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_C > ontr > > ol > > > I have a 3922 crate controller and a 3953 auxiliary crate controller at work. I > also have manuals for the 3911 PDP-11 crate controller and 2912 LSI-11 bus > adapter and the 3953. > These have schematics in them. > > I THINK the 3912 may be an LSI-11 (QBus) controller, not Unibus. > > Jon I just wish I could remember any of this, and I have lost contact with my colleagues who might have remembered. When I worked at NERC they were used for most everything, generally in conjunction with a PDP-11 or LSI-11. We had Media Conversion Systems that took various tapes from Scientific Data Recorders and converted them to standard paper tape or 9-track mag tape. "HASP" work stations with Card Readers, Line Printers & Tape drives. Terminal Concentrators with multiple HP26xx terminals that could connect to our Honeywell or VAX systems. Some were used as Front End Processors on the Honeywell. By the time I started most were lsi11-03 or 23 modules that fitted into the end slot on the CAMAC crate. They were generally loaded from Paper Tape or sometimes PROM boards which I think emulated Paper Tape or something stupid.... There is a manual for one of the RJE stations here:- http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/392339/ and this paper contains info on how to convert some data using a PDP11-05 based media conversion system http://eprints.soton.ac.uk/392307/1/1188056-1001.pdf I hope these are interesting Dave Wade From turing at shaw.ca Thu Nov 3 11:45:21 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 10:45:21 -0600 (MDT) Subject: R: What interest in a In-Reply-To: <004c01d235ec$0fe22ac0$2fa68040$@tin.it> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <004c01d235ec$0fe22ac0$2fa68040$@tin.it> Message-ID: <1937437368.70049910.1478191521725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Hi: As an ex-HPer, I'm also interested in this machine, but I suspect that shipping to Vancouver, Canada, will be exorbitant. From: "Mazzini Alessandro" To: "cctalk" Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 9:05:13 AM Subject: R: What interest in a Hi, very interesting machine. I've always been a fan of hp-ux... How much would you think it's going to cost, to ship to Italy ? ( near Milan ) Alessandro -----Messaggio originale----- Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Richard Inviato: gioved? 3 novembre 2016 15:38 A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Oggetto: What interest in a Hi to everyone, I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at all. Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? Richard Bristol, UK From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 3 11:55:18 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 09:55:18 -0700 Subject: R: What interest in a In-Reply-To: <1937437368.70049910.1478191521725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <004c01d235ec$0fe22ac0$2fa68040$@tin.it> <1937437368.70049910.1478191521725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Norman Jaffe wrote: > Hi: > > As an ex-HPer, I'm also interested in this machine, but I suspect that > shipping to Vancouver, Canada, will be exorbitant. > > From: "Mazzini Alessandro" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 9:05:13 AM > Subject: R: What interest in a > > Hi, > > very interesting machine. I've always been a fan of hp-ux... > How much would you think it's going to cost, to ship to Italy ? ( near > Milan ) > > Alessandro > > -----Messaggio originale----- > Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Richard > Inviato: gioved? 3 novembre 2016 15:38 > A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Oggetto: What interest in a > > Hi to everyone, > > I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in > Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a > 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also > have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at all. > > Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? > > Richard > Bristol, UK > Well, if no one else can afford shipping :-) I'm in Seattle and would definitely be interested. I used HP-UX when I was training people on Boeing's aircraft simulator software. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 19:15:56 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 18:15:56 -0600 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> <4f5bebf4-f414-503a-26fd-d27bb7fe32ba@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:42 AM, dwight wrote: > The UPP had a bug that was never fixed. The level for the > [...] > The problem was in an app note. Their solution was to put > a few NOPs at the start of the code. It worked most of the time. > Wow! I noticed the NOPs when I disassembled the code, but had no idea why it was there. The first >NINE< microinstructions in the iAPX 432 GDP Release 1.0 microcode ROM (in the 43201 chip) are all "reset processor", which doesn't affect the micro program counter, but resets much of the other hardware in both the 43201 and 43202 chips. I wonder whether there might have been similar issues. From seefriek at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 19:46:54 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 20:46:54 -0400 Subject: VAX/VMS Pascal, Modula-3, Oberon, what could have been.... Message-ID: I've heard Modula-3 (from DEC SRC and Olivetti Research Center) called "the Ada regular programmers would adopt". They never did, of course, because Olivetti decided research wasn't that important and DEC got bought and a lot of other reasons that are documented elsewhere. Not to get into a language pissing contest, but IMO it's an awfully nice way to program, with threading built in, type safety, generics, a reasonable GC, exceptions, etc. I really enjoyed it, but then I think Ada brings a lot to the table. What might have been, indeed. From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Nov 3 20:14:54 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 21:14:54 -0400 Subject: Gould 32/77 (was: NWA auctions) In-Reply-To: <7f1d6843-4bd2-b686-798b-78ff8cc386fe@bitsavers.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A453@mail.bensene.com> <3e794956-64a8-349e-859c-effa056dedb2@sbcglobal.net> <4d820008-2163-e035-743f-d7d6b0fc5dd6@bitsavers.org> <7f1d6843-4bd2-b686-798b-78ff8cc386fe@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Bob: I have not found any Gould software yet but last night I found a packet of all the UTX-32 documentation on microfiche. When you are ready for it, let me know how to mail it to you. On Tue, Oct 25, 2016 at 5:12 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > There are some new scans up now for 32/75 on bitsavers.org/pdf/sel and > some software > under bits/SEL > > I'll be working on MPX documentation next > > > On 10/14/16 7:29 PM, Tony Aiuto wrote: > > > Bob: I may have a lot of software for it, if I can find the tapes and > they > > are still readable. I even got hold of their secret C compiler port. > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Nov 3 16:53:41 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 3 Nov 2016 14:53:41 -0700 Subject: R: What interest in a In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <004c01d235ec$0fe22ac0$2fa68040$@tin.it> <1937437368.70049910.1478191521725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <8a12e8ac-7177-c891-b946-d412f34c9f44@jwsss.com> On 11/3/2016 9:55 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 9:45 AM, Norman Jaffe wrote: > >> Hi: >> >> a >> >> Hi, >> >> very interesting machine. I've always been a fan of hp-ux... >> How much would you think it's going to cost, to ship to Italy ? ( near >> Milan ) >> >> Alessandro >> >> -----Messaggio originale----- >> Da: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Per conto di Richard >> Inviato: gioved? 3 novembre 2016 15:38 >> A: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Oggetto: What interest in a >> >> Hi to everyone, >> >> I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in >> Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a >> 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I also >> have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at all. >> >> Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? >> >> Richard >> Bristol, UK >> > Well, if no one else can afford shipping :-) I'm in Seattle and would > definitely be interested. I used HP-UX when I was training people on > Boeing's aircraft simulator software. > I am still supporting HPUX PA machines, would love to have a laptop sized system running HPUX. Would be glad to deal if you like. thanks Jim From aswood at t-online.de Fri Nov 4 06:10:59 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 12:10:59 +0100 Subject: VAX Common Lisp Message-ID: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 4 06:54:30 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 11:54:30 +0000 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> Message-ID: <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> On 02/11/16 00:12, Glen Slick wrote: > On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 4:43 PM, Corey Cohen wrote: >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272433760795 >> >> This Helios II has been "sold" multiple times for varying amounts and then suddenly hours later appears for sale again. I'm done bidding on this each time it appears, because if I won, who knows what I'd receive or if the seller would cancel the auction. >> > "PAYPAL USERS MUST WAIT COMPLETE CLEARANCE > (IT CAN REQUIRES ALSO 21 DAYS)" > > What they heck does that mean? Not a seller I would touch with a 10 foot pole. > > Something seems odd about this seller "scroogemcduckbonaparte" and > their cousin "paperonebonaparte", who has positive feedback for > selling a "HELIOS II DISK SOL 20 8 INCHES FLOPPY WITH CONTROLLER > ALTAIR ERA IMSAI S100 BUS (#272205548861)" for $1,950.00 within the > last 6 months. "scroogemcduckbonaparte" has positive feedback as a > buyer from "paperonebonaparte" for several items over a year ago. > The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). Paperone is the Italian version of Disney's Scrooge McDuck. paperonebonaparte also sold a PET for 350 euro and an Altair for $1136 and a C4004 microprocessor for 1297 euro. He (or she) is obviously quite reasonable: the " MITS Altair 8800a Lights Working! BILL GATES IMSAI 8080 - C4004 ERA PC DISK (#271980509395)" was up for 2000 euro but a best offer was accepted :-) Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From richard.smith at mewgull.com Fri Nov 4 04:23:20 2016 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:23:20 +0000 Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <020255fd-ef95-5ad4-4319-2f538c51cc80@mewgull.com> Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. I have a best offer so far of ?100 (112? / $124) plus shipping. The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18? for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. Let me know if you are still interested. Richard On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: > Hi to everyone, > > I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in > Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a > 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I > also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at > all. > > Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? > > Richard > Bristol, UK > > > > From mole42 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 06:26:14 2016 From: mole42 at gmail.com (Richard) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 11:26:14 +0000 Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> Message-ID: <0647126a-3fab-60fd-04b5-74b420afb9b4@gmail.com> Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. I have a best offer so far of ?100 (112? / $124) plus shipping. The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18? for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. Let me know if you are still interested. Richard On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: > Hi to everyone, > > I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in > Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a > 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I > also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at > all. > > Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? > > Richard > Bristol, UK > > > > From turing at shaw.ca Fri Nov 4 08:12:15 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 07:12:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: <0647126a-3fab-60fd-04b5-74b420afb9b4@gmail.com> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <0647126a-3fab-60fd-04b5-74b420afb9b4@gmail.com> Message-ID: <396696861.72336962.1478265135725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> $50 to U.S. would likely be the same for Canada, so I'm still interested... but let's try not to make this into a 'bidding war'. From: "Richard" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 4:26:14 AM Subject: Re: What interest in a Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. I have a best offer so far of ?100 (112? / $124) plus shipping. The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18? for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. Let me know if you are still interested. Richard On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: > Hi to everyone, > > I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in > Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a > 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I > also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at > all. > > Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? > > Richard > Bristol, UK > > > > From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:19:42 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly Message-ID: Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere around cold looking solder joints. ?Is that rust, some sort or protection, or acid corrosion? -------- Original message --------From: Mark G Thomas Date: 10/31/16? I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. Please contact Rick directly if interested. Original posting here: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > *************? Contact Rick below if interested.? ************* > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: Rick Bunker > Contact: rick at bunker.us > Location: Jenkintown, PA??? 10/30/2016 Update:---------------------- > The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, > you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 > From barythrin at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 08:19:42 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 08:19:42 -0500 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly Message-ID: Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere around cold looking solder joints. ?Is that rust, some sort or protection, or acid corrosion? -------- Original message --------From: Mark G Thomas Date: 10/31/16? I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. Please contact Rick directly if interested. Original posting here: On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: > --------------------------------------------------------------- > *************? Contact Rick below if interested.? ************* > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Name: Rick Bunker > Contact: rick at bunker.us > Location: Jenkintown, PA??? 10/30/2016 Update:---------------------- > The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, > you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 4 08:35:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:35:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Unknown DEC indicator panel Message-ID: <20161104133514.11A4618C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I suppose I should try and round up images of 19" x 5-1/4" PDP-10 > panels, too So there are quite a few, although I'm not sure they are exactly the same as the ones used in the PDP-11's, PDP-15's, etc. Those use a plastic bezel which is the same as the blank panels in the H960 racks, into which the inlay is set from the front, and glued down to the lip inside the bezel. The PDP-10 ones, from the pictures, and my vague memory, use metal bezels which cover the panels from the front, holding them on, so the shape of the inlay may be subtly different. Anyway, I found images (not great - all B+W illustrations in manuals) of the following PDP-1 panels: DF10 DA10 RC10 BA10 TD10 TM10 DS10 RM10B DC10 RP10-C MB10 MD10 I'll add them to the page at some point. If any has actual images of any of these, they'd be appreciated. (And no, none of them is the mystery panel in the RSTS manual.) Noel From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Nov 4 09:16:54 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:16:54 +0000 Subject: Looking for Prompt-475 In-Reply-To: References: <4CD71454-B951-40AE-9EA1-45D171A1D947@pski.net> <786e9424-f7e1-b245-d102-97fb064c56e8@verizon.net> <7d1c4d4d-fe74-ad09-71df-8795a7469a1a@verizon.net> <4f5bebf4-f414-503a-26fd-d27bb7fe32ba@verizon.net> , Message-ID: I'd have thought they had it better under control by the 432 time but you never know. Most times on the UPP, you could hit the reset a number of times if there was a problem. The changes in randomness would usually let it reset and start code that would reset. Intel had a number of poorly designed circuits that were on the edge of working. One of the disk controllers with the 3000 series bit slice had a problem if the ROMs used were too fast. I forget which one. They were using the wrong edge of the clock to latch the data. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, November 3, 2016 5:15:56 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Looking for Prompt-475 On Thu, Nov 3, 2016 at 8:42 AM, dwight wrote: > The UPP had a bug that was never fixed. The level for the > [...] > The problem was in an app note. Their solution was to put > a few NOPs at the start of the code. It worked most of the time. > Wow! I noticed the NOPs when I disassembled the code, but had no idea why it was there. The first >NINE< microinstructions in the iAPX 432 GDP Release 1.0 microcode ROM (in the 43201 chip) are all "reset processor", which doesn't affect the micro program counter, but resets much of the other hardware in both the 43201 and 43202 chips. I wonder whether there might have been similar issues. From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 4 09:22:57 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 10:22:57 -0400 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C468C68-CF56-4B8C-896F-3A82B284BAE8@comcast.net> > On Nov 4, 2016, at 9:19 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > > Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere around cold looking solder joints. Is that rust, some sort or protection, or acid corrosion?... > >> The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, >> you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 I doubt it's any of those. That's the typical look of a board hand-soldered with conventional rosin core solder. While it's possible to remove that flux (thought I think the best solvents are non-PC), it is often omitted and generally not needed. paul From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 10:03:41 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 08:03:41 -0700 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). > Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly the same. https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 From richard.smith at mewgull.com Fri Nov 4 09:10:22 2016 From: richard.smith at mewgull.com (Richard Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:10:22 +0000 Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: <396696861.72336962.1478265135725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <0647126a-3fab-60fd-04b5-74b420afb9b4@gmail.com> <396696861.72336962.1478265135725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> Message-ID: <3fc4e891-f550-6b66-92f7-b67c71141247@mewgull.com> I'm much less interested in a bidding war that most people would be. The computer is sitting on my shelf, it isn't being used, it just takes up space. I'm not a dealer in old computers, I don't rely on any profit to feed my family. I would prefer that this machine went to someone who would use it. Shipping to Canada would be CAN$64 I would be far happier to swap it for 80-BUS parts than for cash. Richard On 04/11/2016 13:12, Norman Jaffe wrote: > $50 to U.S. would likely be the same for Canada, so I'm still interested... but let's try not to make this into a 'bidding war'. > > From: "Richard" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 4:26:14 AM > Subject: Re: What interest in a > > Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. > > I have a best offer so far of ?100 (112? / $124) plus shipping. > > The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18? > for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. > > I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious > user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS > (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. > > Let me know if you are still interested. > > Richard > > On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: >> Hi to everyone, >> >> I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in >> Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a >> 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I >> also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at >> all. >> >> Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? >> >> Richard >> Bristol, UK >> >> >> >> > From turing at shaw.ca Fri Nov 4 10:47:46 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:47:46 -0600 (MDT) Subject: What interest in a In-Reply-To: <3fc4e891-f550-6b66-92f7-b67c71141247@mewgull.com> References: <009201d22a24$4a00a070$de01e150$@attfield.co.uk> <0647126a-3fab-60fd-04b5-74b420afb9b4@gmail.com> <396696861.72336962.1478265135725.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> <3fc4e891-f550-6b66-92f7-b67c71141247@mewgull.com> Message-ID: <687851266.72774740.1478274466709.JavaMail.zimbra@shaw.ca> I love older machines and had to part with several SGI and HP systems in order to 'downsize' enough to fit in my apartment, so an HP-UX laptop is very desirable. Unfortunately, I don't have access to 80-BUS parts, so my offer would be for cash; I'll make my offer outside this forum. From: "Richard Smith" To: "cctalk" Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 7:10:22 AM Subject: Re: What interest in a I'm much less interested in a bidding war that most people would be. The computer is sitting on my shelf, it isn't being used, it just takes up space. I'm not a dealer in old computers, I don't rely on any profit to feed my family. I would prefer that this machine went to someone who would use it. Shipping to Canada would be CAN$64 I would be far happier to swap it for 80-BUS parts than for cash. Richard On 04/11/2016 13:12, Norman Jaffe wrote: > $50 to U.S. would likely be the same for Canada, so I'm still interested... but let's try not to make this into a 'bidding war'. > > From: "Richard" > To: "cctalk" > Sent: Friday, November 4, 2016 4:26:14 AM > Subject: Re: What interest in a > > Wow! That amount of interest wasn't expected at all. > > I have a best offer so far of ?100 (112? / $124) plus shipping. > > The cheapest shipping to the USA would be $50, into Europe would be 18? > for the parcel which weighs in at 8kg / 18lb. All at your risk. > > I don't want to put it on ebay, I'd much rather it went to a serious > user on here but I do want to expand my collection of 80-BUS > (NASCOM/GEMINI) parts so anything I get for the PrecisionBook would help. > > Let me know if you are still interested. > > Richard > > On 03/11/2016 14:37, Richard wrote: >> Hi to everyone, >> >> I have a PrecisionBook laptop made by RDI Computer Corporation in >> Carlsbad, CA. It's a Model #H16-12-8-256L2S with a 4050mAHr battery, a >> 6.5Gb hard drive with data and a 4.0Gb hard drive with HP-UX 10.2. I >> also have the charger for it. It works but I have no documentation at >> all. >> >> Is it of any use to anyone or should I dump it? >> >> Richard >> Bristol, UK >> >> >> >> > From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 4 10:54:03 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 08:54:03 -0700 Subject: VAX Common Lisp In-Reply-To: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> References: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:10 AM, wrote: > any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? > ISTR when I installed it on the VAX-11/780-5 at Living Computer Museum, I got it either from the hobbyist distribution or from the freeware collection at HP. I know I didn't jump through any special hoops to get it. In fact, I had both Common Lisp and 'Standard' Lisp installed. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 11:19:56 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:19:56 -0700 Subject: VAX Common Lisp In-Reply-To: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> References: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:10 AM, wrote: > any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? 917AA VAX LISP/VMS [LISP030] or [LISP031] was on VMS Consolidated Software Distribution CD sets from at least Jan-1990 to May-1993 according to this link: http://de.openvms.org/spl.php?product_name=LISP&display=full I don't have any CONDIST sets that old myself to take a look. From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 4 11:32:45 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 09:32:45 -0700 Subject: VAX Common Lisp In-Reply-To: References: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:19 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:10 AM, wrote: > > any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? > > 917AA VAX LISP/VMS [LISP030] or [LISP031] was on VMS Consolidated > Software Distribution CD sets from at least Jan-1990 to May-1993 > according to this link: > > http://de.openvms.org/spl.php?product_name=LISP&display=full > > I don't have any CONDIST sets that old myself to take a look. > I don't recall how old my CONDIST is but I'll try to give it a look-see. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Nov 4 12:02:05 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:02:05 +0000 Subject: VAX Common Lisp In-Reply-To: References: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> Message-ID: <42c3bf45-e986-e62e-bf90-f28e2940fbb9@wickensonline.co.uk> http://wickensonline.co.uk/static/files/vmslisp.zip LISP031 Regards, Mark. On 11/4/2016 4:19 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:10 AM, wrote: >> any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? > 917AA VAX LISP/VMS [LISP030] or [LISP031] was on VMS Consolidated > Software Distribution CD sets from at least Jan-1990 to May-1993 > according to this link: > > http://de.openvms.org/spl.php?product_name=LISP&display=full > > I don't have any CONDIST sets that old myself to take a look. From RichA at livingcomputers.org Fri Nov 4 13:58:52 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 18:58:52 +0000 Subject: VAX Common Lisp In-Reply-To: References: <15BEAC11-2252-4279-8650-0A85F2B59152@t-online.de> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDD8066@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Ian S. King Sent: Friday, November 04, 2016 8:54 AM > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 4:10 AM, wrote: >> any idea where to get VAX Common Lisp? > ISTR when I installed it on the VAX-11/780-5 at Living Computer Museum, I > got it either from the hobbyist distribution or from the freeware > collection at HP. I know I didn't jump through any special hoops to get > it. In fact, I had both Common Lisp and 'Standard' Lisp installed. Ooooh. Standard Lisp. Portable Standard Lisp (which is most probably what Ian installed) was the first Lisp I learned after reading Weissman's _LISP 1.5 Primer_. We installed it at the University of Chicago Computation Center as part of making available the REDUCE symbolic mathematics package. (IIRC, that was on the Amdahl 470 under SVS, rather than on the DEC-20.) That got me interested in Lisp as a language, and I began hunting down all the different implementations I could find. The original Standard Lisp was an evalquote implementation--top-level loop is the equivalent of (print (apply (read) (read))) rather than an eval implementation with a REPL (print (eval (read))) Portable Standard Lisp is an eval dialect, and contributed to the definition of Common Lisp. In addition, it provided an Algol-like alternative syntax not unlike McCarthy's LISP 2 (the algebraic notation used in McCarthy et al. and which McCarthy used to teach Lisp programming at Stanford until he retired). Funniest thing is that we were having a Lisp programming discussion at the museum just this morning, entirely unrelated to this ClassicCmp thread! Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Nov 4 14:40:54 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:40:54 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2016-10-30 15:40, william degnan wrote: > On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:44 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, >> it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? > if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it. OK, I got the IBM 5170 somehow working, got the sage II starting, copied the system disk (SYSTEM.IMD) to the 5 1/4 disk, and it boots !!! Crashed after a while, and only shows 128K (512k is populated), Monitor is Version 2.1, but it is a start !!! Thanks to all who helped! From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 15:29:50 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 14:29:50 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? Message-ID: Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? It's apparently intended to be available here: http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ but I was unable to actually download it. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 4 15:38:28 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 13:38:28 -0700 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3678c648-4ba4-8a94-034b-e54462669d96@jwsss.com> On 11/4/2016 1:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. > > The manual is sold for 0 pounds, and the script fails in trying to check out. Since the site is in the UK the script may fail with non UK locales. Perhaps someone in the UK could try to get it and let Eric have access. Hope they don't have worse problems with a bug in a script like that, such as having ways to get into their site and compromise financial data. Kind of dangerous mixing routine stuff like downloads into having to pay no fees for the copy. thanks Jim From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:11:33 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:11:33 -0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <3678c648-4ba4-8a94-034b-e54462669d96@jwsss.com> References: <3678c648-4ba4-8a94-034b-e54462669d96@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <001a01d236e0$05686e70$10394b50$@gmail.com> It doesn't work from the UK. I can't get to the checkout if I add an item with a cost. I think its broken. Dave G4UGM > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim > stephens > Sent: 04 November 2016 20:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > > > > On 11/4/2016 1:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical > Manual? > > > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- > Matrix-Pr > > inter-Technical-Manual/ but I was unable to actually download it. > > > > > The manual is sold for 0 pounds, and the script fails in trying to check out. > Since the site is in the UK the script may fail with non UK locales. Perhaps > someone in the UK could try to get it and let Eric have access. > > Hope they don't have worse problems with a bug in a script like that, such as > having ways to get into their site and compromise financial data. Kind of > dangerous mixing routine stuff like downloads into having to pay no fees for > the copy. > thanks > Jim From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Nov 4 17:45:24 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 4 Nov 2016, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? It may be a long shot, . . . The first printer that IBM sold with the 5150 was a re-badged Epson MX-80. The ROMs are likely to be different, but the rest of its circuitry should be the same. http://www.minuszerodegrees.net/manuals/IBM_5150_Technical_Reference_6025005_AUG81.pdf ? The original manual had schematics. From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 4 19:03:26 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:03:26 +0000 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm Message-ID: Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still exciting. Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. Randy https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 20:09:33 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 20:09:33 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How completely charming. Good for Gina, and good for you! (And I'm sure that Future Gina will 'appreciate' the fact that you put her on the web, dressed in a bathrobe. >Smirk<) On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 7:03 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still > exciting. > > > Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one > that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. > > > Randy > > > https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE > > From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Nov 4 21:25:30 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 19:25:30 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm Message-ID: Very cool. ?I love how that display works. ?It's just like something from an early 80s movie. I want one badly but not $3000 badly. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: Randy Dawson Date: 2016-11-04 5:03 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still exciting. Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. Randy https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 21:36:06 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 20:36:06 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The first printer that IBM sold with the 5150 was a re-badged Epson MX-80. IBM 5152 Graphics Printer. It may have been equivalent to an MX-80 with the optional Graftrax-80 upgrade. However, I'd still really like to get a scan of the Epson manual. From Mark at Misty.com Fri Nov 4 22:16:53 2016 From: Mark at Misty.com (Mark G Thomas) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 23:16:53 -0400 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches Message-ID: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> Hi, Does anyone have any available? I don't need the paddles, just the the ON-OFF-ON momentary switches. I got good ON-OFF address/data ones from Herb Johnson, but the momentary ON-OFF-ON ones I have are worn out and do not return to center properly. Mark -- Mark G. Thomas (Mark at Misty.com), KC3DRE From leec2124 at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:44:14 2016 From: leec2124 at gmail.com (Lee Courtney) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 20:44:14 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Awesome. I have a 16 year-old that hasn't gotten in vintage tech that much, but thinks it is cool! Your daughter will have a more visceral understanding of computing if she continues. Bravo! Lee C. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still > exciting. > > > Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one > that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. > > > Randy > > > https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE > > -- Lee Courtney +1-650-704-3934 cell From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 22:50:04 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 21:50:04 -0600 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Does anyone have any available? I don't need the paddles, just the > the ON-OFF-ON momentary switches. > Just FYI, technically those are known as MOM-OFF-MOM. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Nov 4 14:56:10 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 19:56:10 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> , Message-ID: > Crashed after a while, and only shows 128K (512k is populated), > It appears that there's a DIP shunt block on the CPU board where each shunt corespond to a row of DRAMs. You should check all 4 positions are shorted. I think that the power-on test checks the first 128K RAM, then sees if the top location (? first location) of the next 128K works if so, it tests that RAM, and repeats 128K at a time to work out how much RAM it has. So you may have defective RAMs in the second 128K. I wonder if the crashing is due to RAM problems in the first 128K. -tony From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 00:25:55 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 00:25:55 -0500 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: BTW, how old is little Ms. Gina? I'm guessing 8-10 yrs? That's a perfect time to start venturing into programming. I first dug into PCs (at the time, "home computers") ca. 1977-78; I would have been 8-9 yrs. That would have been an Apple II - not a II+ or IIe / IIc - just the old ][ as we said. What was the stock RAM on those machines - 16/32K? All I recall is that it had a single Disk II and one of those little B&W monitors, which I don't think was an Apple product. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:44 PM, Lee Courtney wrote: > Awesome. I have a 16 year-old that hasn't gotten in vintage tech that much, > but thinks it is cool! Your daughter will have a more visceral > understanding of computing if she continues. Bravo! > > Lee C. > > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 5:03 PM, Randy Dawson > wrote: > > > Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still > > exciting. > > > > > > Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one > > that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. > > > > > > Randy > > > > > > https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE > > > > > > > -- > Lee Courtney > +1-650-704-3934 cell > From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 01:17:12 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 01:17:12 -0500 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: Am I correct that the Altair 8800(A/B) also uses those type of switch? If so, I need one or two as well.. my own, lone 8800 isn't quite what it could be, IIRC. Had to sub switches. On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 9:16 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > > > Does anyone have any available? I don't need the paddles, just the > > the ON-OFF-ON momentary switches. > > > > Just FYI, technically those are known as MOM-OFF-MOM. > From scott at kevill.com Sat Nov 5 02:24:03 2016 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 15:24:03 +0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. If you do get the site working, or contact the site owners, this one might also be worth getting (?7.5 rather than ?0, but also fails to check out): http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/32320/Epson-FX-RX-MX-Printers-Product-Support-Service-and-Repair/ Covers FX-85/185, FX-80/100, RX-80/100, MX-80/100. (Principles of Operation, Wiring data, Repair Analysis Procedures, Parts Lists, Repairs and Adjustments, Final Actions, General) This book on pages 11-12 has a brief overview of the differences between the MX-80 versions (suggesting mostly firmware differences, and with the Type III including the previously optional Graftrax 80 support): http://www.atarimania.com/documents/The_Epson_Connection_Atari_Edition.pdf This VCFED thread also discusses the ROMs (and the 5152 printer): http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?24184-IBM-5152-Epson-MX-80 The Graftrax 80 installation manual also has a component layout diagram on page 4: https://archive.org/details/Graftrax-80_1981_Epson_America Here is the Epson MX-80 III FT - Sams ComputerFacts: https://archive.org/details/Sams_Computerfacts_Epson_MX-80_III_FT_Printer_1984_Howard_Sams Here is the IBM 5152-002 - Sams ComputerFacts: https://archive.org/details/Sams_IBM_5152_Printer If you do manage to get hold of either of those Epson PDFs on computinghistory.org.uk, I'd be very keen as well. Scott. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 5 03:14:12 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 01:14:12 -0700 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/4/2016 1:29 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. I tried several other schemes to find this, and struck out. The museum seems to be using a rack server service http://www.havnet.net/, secure checkout, of course which is broken. I tried going thru archive.org's images of this site, and did find that there were epson documents on the site, but this manual is an addition after 2013, which is as far back as I went. And the checkout scheme was there already, though the manual was not, so I stopped that search. I wonder if we guessed the correct url if the manual is visible, but didn't get anywhere with that. Hopefully someone can fix their server. I have a friend who is an instructor in Cambridge, I will send this to her next week if you don't get anywhere, and see if she can contact someone who can contact someone, if the page isn't fixed. Also sending a donation is asked for, and I could get no donation or purchase to work at all, so they will be missing revenue for the museum (in whatever shape it is in) till they do fix the page. thanks to Scott for the other info, filed it away for when I feel the need to open an Epson printer. thanks jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:20:45 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:20:45 -0400 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: great to hear On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:40 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > On 2016-10-30 15:40, william degnan wrote: > >> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:44 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >> > > I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, >>> it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? >>> >> if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it. >> > > OK, I got the IBM 5170 somehow working, got the sage II starting, > copied the system disk (SYSTEM.IMD) to the 5 1/4 disk, > and it boots !!! > > Crashed after a while, and only shows 128K (512k is populated), > Monitor is Version 2.1, but it is a start !!! > > Thanks to all who helped! > > From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Nov 4 16:27:54 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 15:27:54 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <2848c998-a443-95a0-a8ba-64ba57b16ba7@e-bbes.com> On 2016-11-04 15:20, william degnan wrote: > great to hear Yes, I'm enjoying this little machine ;-) I have one question: How does it check, how much RAM is in it? Boot shows 128K, but the board has 512K > On Fri, Nov 4, 2016 at 3:40 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > >> On 2016-10-30 15:40, william degnan wrote: >> >>> On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:44 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: >>> >> >> I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working, >>>> it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right? >>>> >>> if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it. >>> >> >> OK, I got the IBM 5170 somehow working, got the sage II starting, >> copied the system disk (SYSTEM.IMD) to the 5 1/4 disk, >> and it boots !!! >> >> Crashed after a while, and only shows 128K (512k is populated), >> Monitor is Version 2.1, but it is a start !!! >> >> Thanks to all who helped! >> >> > > From john.h.blake at gmail.com Fri Nov 4 16:37:55 2016 From: john.h.blake at gmail.com (John Blake) Date: Fri, 4 Nov 2016 17:37:55 -0400 Subject: VAX Common Lisp Message-ID: <7862c494-9d9c-3cf3-01d6-8112031afab9@gmail.com> I've been looking for it for a while as well, the only place I've seen that has it in any form is actually on the 11/780 running at the LCM (which you can of course access with a free account, if you just want to use VCL). I assume it must still exist elsewhere but it was removed from the old software product libraries prior to any of the sets I've found archived anywhere, sometime around 90-91 I believe? There were several other CL and LISP implementations for VAX VMS but they've all fallen into the great memory hole as well. KCL in particular seems like it might be easier to find since it was freely available, but I've had no luck. From ajp166 at verizon.net Fri Nov 4 17:50:17 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 18:50:17 -0400 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0b31ee92-fa37-726e-0b6a-961b9c62e662@verizon.net> That is from the first 2000 to 5000 units its a 8800 no suffix the ribbon is either A or Bsuffix and a different CPU board (uses 8224). The orange is rosin flux that was not cleaned. Isopropanol would clean that but it was built as a kit (the K suffux on the serial number tag). Its better to leave it that way. Authentic, never cleaned mine either. The PS looks to be the original version or the first update (higher voltage transformer). I'd expect power supply problems, suspect one-shots (front panel and CPU clock) and bus level noise issues. Assuming the switches are still good. Allison On 11/04/2016 09:19 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere around cold looking solder joints. Is that rust, some sort or protection, or acid corrosion? > -------- Original message --------From: Mark G Thomas Date: 10/31/16 > I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below > additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. > Please contact Rick directly if interested. > > Original posting here: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> ************* Contact Rick below if interested. ************* >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> Name: Rick Bunker >> Contact: rick at bunker.us >> Location: Jenkintown, PA > 10/30/2016 Update:---------------------- > >> The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, >> you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 >> From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Nov 4 23:13:47 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:13:47 -0700 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly Message-ID: I got booted from the list when the original post came out for this. ?He isn't willing to ship I guess? ?I wouldn't mind buying the SWTPC 6800 case he has.. I have almost everything save a cpu card to build another 6800 unit. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: allison Date: 2016-11-04 3:50 PM (GMT-08:00) To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly That is from the first 2000 to 5000 units its a 8800 no suffix the ribbon is either A or Bsuffix and a different CPU board (uses 8224). The orange is rosin flux that was not cleaned.?? Isopropanol would clean that but it was built as a kit (the K suffux on the serial number tag).? Its better to leave it that way.? Authentic, never cleaned mine either. The PS looks to be the original version or the first update (higher voltage transformer). I'd expect power supply problems, suspect one-shots (front panel and CPU clock) and bus level noise issues.? Assuming the switches are still good. Allison On 11/04/2016 09:19 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: > Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere around cold looking solder joints.? Is that rust, some sort or protection, or acid corrosion? > -------- Original message --------From: Mark G Thomas Date: 10/31/16 > I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below > additional information about remaining items, with links to photos. > Please contact Rick directly if interested. > > Original posting here: > On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +0000, steven stengel wrote: >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> *************? Contact Rick below if interested.? ************* >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> Name: Rick Bunker >> Contact: rick at bunker.us >> Location: Jenkintown, PA??? > 10/30/2016 Update:---------------------- > >> The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU, >> you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 >> From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Fri Nov 4 23:17:44 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Fri, 04 Nov 2016 21:17:44 -0700 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly Message-ID: <00h6f62nto5bnpy3nhup4ent.1478319464102@email.android.com> I'm a dork.. my reader was cutting off quotes.. but I saw the direct link to Rick in my email. Sent from my Samsung device From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 06:38:41 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:38:41 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I know have this in my inbox, will upload some where and announce when I am on a proper computer, not cell phone. Dave On 4 Nov 2016 20:29, "Eric Smith" wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80- > Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 5 07:53:18 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:53:18 -0000 Subject: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 Message-ID: <005f01d23763$94e2b0a0$bea811e0$@ntlworld.com> I have got TSS/8 running on SIMH (actually it is a ready-made image that I got for the PiDP8). I have set up SIMH to enable TTIX for a secondary line to connect another terminal, but when I try to login from another line (ie not the console) I get a message along the lines of a local login not being permitted. I have looked through the TSS/8 manuals on Manx, but I can't find anything that tells me how to enable local logins. Can anyone tell me how you do this? Thanks Rob From emu at e-bbes.com Sat Nov 5 08:09:04 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 07:09:04 -0600 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: <4732a387-88fd-2c79-54ca-8bcc38d7faec@e-bbes.com> On 2016-11-04 13:56, tony duell wrote: > >> Crashed after a while, and only shows 128K (512k is populated), >> > > It appears that there's a DIP shunt block on the CPU board where each shunt > corespond to a row of DRAMs. You should check all 4 positions are shorted. According to the technical manual: www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sage/sageandstride/Technical_Manual-1983.pdf they should all be open. > I think that the power-on test checks the first 128K RAM, then sees if the top > location (? first location) of the next 128K works if so, it tests that RAM, and > repeats 128K at a time to work out how much RAM it has. So you may have > defective RAMs in the second 128K. Also, the manual write it would tell me, if the test fails with the location of the bad Address. But it say 128K, and just boots ... > I wonder if the crashing is due to RAM problems in the first 128K. I'm not sure my floppy disks are OK. I'm trying to get a IBM 5170 up to work at the same time, so will try to write them again ... From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 09:44:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 07:44:15 -0700 Subject: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 In-Reply-To: <005f01d23763$94e2b0a0$bea811e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <005f01d23763$94e2b0a0$bea811e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <241bfdc9-87fc-b335-f8f2-525c188fc725@bitsavers.org> see TSS8_8.24_ManagersGuide "on" at the console with the operator logged on On 11/5/16 5:53 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote: > I have got TSS/8 running on SIMH (actually it is a ready-made image that I > got for the PiDP8). I have set up SIMH to enable TTIX for a secondary line > to connect another terminal, but when I try to login from another line (ie > not the console) I get a message along the lines of a local login not being > permitted. I have looked through the TSS/8 manuals on Manx, but I can't find > anything that tells me how to enable local logins. Can anyone tell me how > you do this? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 5 10:09:03 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 15:09:03 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <4732a387-88fd-2c79-54ca-8bcc38d7faec@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> , <4732a387-88fd-2c79-54ca-8bcc38d7faec@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > > > It appears that there's a DIP shunt block on the CPU board where each shunt > > corespond to a row of DRAMs. You should check all 4 positions are shorted. > > According to the technical manual: > > www.bitsavers.org/pdf/sage/sageandstride/Technical_Manual-1983.pdf > > they should all be open. Yes, you're right. A jumper is fitted for a non-populated bank. That's quite clever in that the sort of shunt originally fitted is the type where you break the shorting bar with a screwdriver. So it comes with some shorted, if you upgrade the RAM you can break more (it is assumed you never downgrade the RAM :-) > > I think that the power-on test checks the first 128K RAM, then sees if the top > > location (? first location) of the next 128K works if so, it tests that RAM, and > > repeats 128K at a time to work out how much RAM it has. So you may have > > defective RAMs in the second 128K. > > Also, the manual write it would tell me, if the test fails with the > location of the bad Address. But it say 128K, and just boots ... Ah yes... But if the location it uses to check if the bank exists at all fails (perhaps there's one totally bad chip in the bank) then the first test will fail and the machine will assume the bank does not exist. It wll not give an error. -tony From seefriek at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 10:38:35 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 11:38:35 -0400 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee Message-ID: Noticed this on Nekochan: http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16731198 No affiliation ----- Hi, I have an IBM 5360 with all of the manuals, cables, etc. The monitor is missing. There are boxes and boxes of manuals, modems, cables, etc. This is free for someone who wants to pickup in Milwaukee. This posting will be active for a week. If I do not have any takers, it is going to recycling. Thanks! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 10:41:29 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:41:29 -0700 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> On 11/04/2016 11:17 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Am I correct that the Altair 8800(A/B) also uses those type of > switch? > > If so, I need one or two as well.. my own, lone 8800 isn't quite what > it could be, IIRC. Had to sub switches. Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used on the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit easier to locate. I'd probably start here: http://www.ckswitches.com/product-selection/toggle/ if I were looking for a replacement. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 5 10:52:46 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 15:52:46 -0000 Subject: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 In-Reply-To: <241bfdc9-87fc-b335-f8f2-525c188fc725@bitsavers.org> References: <005f01d23763$94e2b0a0$bea811e0$@ntlworld.com> <241bfdc9-87fc-b335-f8f2-525c188fc725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <007c01d2377c$a73868d0$f5a93a70$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow > Sent: 05 November 2016 14:44 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 > > see TSS8_8.24_ManagersGuide > > "on" > > at the console with the operator logged on > Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it but it doesn't seem to help. Every character I type on the terminal causes the bell to ring, it does not respond to RETURN. If I type CTRL-C then it prints: ?LOGGING IN ON LOCAL TERMINALS IS CURRENTLY DISALLOWED Is there something else that is needed? Regards Rob From kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com Sat Nov 5 08:04:06 2016 From: kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com (Keven Miller) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 07:04:06 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> Message-ID: <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. So the link must have gotten fixed. I've placed here just in case: http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx-80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Kevill" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 09:02:40 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 15:02:40 +0100 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information Message-ID: I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the 1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition. The systems are: * Convex C1-XP * Convex C1-XL * Intel iPSC/860 * Ardent Titan Pictures of these can be found on my website, at http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers (click on the thumbnails to see a larger version) I'd like to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about these machines, as well as anyone who may have documentation, but I also have two specific questions: - Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I believe the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the ones used on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me. - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it say Intel on the front? Reason I'm asking is that I'm getting these out of an estate, and I need to tell them what to look for. Thanks, Camiel. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 09:37:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 07:37:38 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961 you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there finding software is going to be extremely difficult On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the > iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it > say Intel on the front? From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 09:48:55 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 15:48:55 +0100 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > let me see if I can get this scanned this morning > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961 That would be awesome! > you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there > finding software is going to be extremely difficult Yes, I realize that; the difficulty lies in directing them in what to look for; "anything that says Intel, Ardent, or Convex on it" is a good beginning, but the more specific I can be in what I ask for, the higher the chance it'll turn up. Camiel. > On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > >> - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the >> iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it >> say Intel on the front? > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 10:29:17 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:29:17 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> there are no useful pictures in the brochures it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes https://www.nas.nasa.gov/assets/pdf/techreports/1991/rnr-91-001.pdf https://web.archive.org/web/20010619235148/http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/intel/intel.html since the original appears to be gone Paul Pierce was archiving information on these systems. We have a little in the CHM collection, not a whole lot on the PSC/860 I have a manual set for the Paragon. It is in silver slipcases On 11/5/16 7:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning >> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961 > > That would be awesome! > >> you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there >> finding software is going to be extremely difficult > > Yes, I realize that; the difficulty lies in directing them in what to > look for; "anything that says Intel, Ardent, or Convex on it" is a > good beginning, but the more specific I can be in what I ask for, the > higher the chance it'll turn up. > > Camiel. > >> On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> >>> - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the >>> iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it >>> say Intel on the front? >> From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 10:34:53 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:34:53 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: never mind, that was just for diagnostics the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT box On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > there are no useful pictures in the brochures > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 10:44:47 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 08:44:47 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <66660765-7868-f6e6-1f17-3fbfc5220362@bitsavers.org> found a picture of a later generation machine http://dooki.com/supercomputers/intel/intel.ipsc860.4_i860_40mhz.gif On 11/5/16 8:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > never mind, that was just for diagnostics > > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V > > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT > box > > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> there are no useful pictures in the brochures >> >> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes >> > From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Nov 5 10:46:29 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:46:29 +0200 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfdw=w1920-h1200-rw-no https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtRp6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 5:34 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > never mind, that was just for diagnostics > > the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V > > it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with > a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT > box > > On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > there are no useful pictures in the brochures > > > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes > > > > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 10:50:23 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:50:23 +0100 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Hi Al, I think you're mixing up the SRM (one per system) with the unit service module. According to this document http://www.par.univie.ac.at/publications/download/ipsc860.pdf, it's an Intel SYP301. That appears to be an Intel 386 motherboard. Camiel On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:29 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > there are no useful pictures in the brochures > > it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes > > https://www.nas.nasa.gov/assets/pdf/techreports/1991/rnr-91-001.pdf > > https://web.archive.org/web/20010619235148/http://www.npac.syr.edu/nse/hpccsurvey/orgs/intel/intel.html > since the original appears to be gone > > Paul Pierce was archiving information on these systems. We have a little in the CHM collection, not a whole > lot on the PSC/860 > > I have a manual set for the Paragon. It is in silver slipcases > > > On 11/5/16 7:48 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 3:37 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> let me see if I can get this scanned this morning >>> http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961 >> >> That would be awesome! >> >>> you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there >>> finding software is going to be extremely difficult >> >> Yes, I realize that; the difficulty lies in directing them in what to >> look for; "anything that says Intel, Ardent, or Convex on it" is a >> good beginning, but the more specific I can be in what I ask for, the >> higher the chance it'll turn up. >> >> Camiel. >> >>> On 11/5/16 7:02 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: >>> >>>> - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the >>>> iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it >>>> say Intel on the front? >>> > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 10:52:56 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:52:56 +0100 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <66660765-7868-f6e6-1f17-3fbfc5220362@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <66660765-7868-f6e6-1f17-3fbfc5220362@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Thanks, that is really helpful; chances are that the box will look similar. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 4:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > found a picture of a later generation machine > http://dooki.com/supercomputers/intel/intel.ipsc860.4_i860_40mhz.gif > > On 11/5/16 8:34 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> never mind, that was just for diagnostics >> >> the srm is described further down. it's a 386 running Sys V >> >> it is likely to be either one of their 310 series multibus boxes with >> a Wyse terminal, like the iPCS-2, which had a 286 or their 386 clone AT >> box >> >> On 11/5/16 8:29 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> there are no useful pictures in the brochures >>> >>> it appears the SRM is integrated into the cabinet and controls 16 nodes >>> >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 11:36:09 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 16:36:09 -0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> Message-ID: <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> They said they were working on it.. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keven > Miller > Sent: 05 November 2016 13:04 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > > I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. > So the link must have gotten fixed. > > I've placed here just in case: > > http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx- > 80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf > > Keven Miller > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Scott Kevill" > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM > Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > > > > On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical > Manual? > > > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- > Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > > but I was unable to actually download it. > > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 12:15:00 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:15:00 -0400 Subject: FTGH: COGNOS software kit Message-ID: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> Hi, I've had this box for a few years and wanted to see if it's interesting to anyone on the list. http://imgur.com/a/dm1vR Apparently everything but the software itself. :/ If there is genuine interest I can list the contents of the box. It won't be cheap to ship though. Located in Toronto, ON. --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 12:18:43 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:18:43 -0400 Subject: FTGH: COGNOS software kit In-Reply-To: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 2016-11-05 1:15 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > Hi, > > I've had this box for a few years and wanted to see if it's interesting > to anyone on the list. > > http://imgur.com/a/dm1vR > > Apparently everything but the software itself. :/ I should note, everything seems to date from about 1986. It was the VAX version and there is a bunch of VAX specific material, including the "COGNOS pocket guide for VAX/VMS minicomputers". --Toby > > If there is genuine interest I can list the contents of the box. It > won't be cheap to ship though. Located in Toronto, ON. > > --Toby > From spedraja at ono.com Sat Nov 5 12:28:32 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 18:28:32 +0100 Subject: FTGH: COGNOS software kit In-Reply-To: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> References: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: Cognos aka Quasar Corporation and its 4GL language 'PowerHouse'. Originally produced for the HP3000 and later acquired by IBM and later by UNICOM. I've never worked with this stuff but I'm curious. There was a PC versi?n, by the way. I've live in Europe but if no one want it I could be. It's sad the lack of software. Regards Sergio 2016-11-05 18:15 GMT+01:00 Toby Thain : > Hi, > > I've had this box for a few years and wanted to see if it's interesting to > anyone on the list. > > http://imgur.com/a/dm1vR > > Apparently everything but the software itself. :/ > > If there is genuine interest I can list the contents of the box. It won't be > cheap to ship though. Located in Toronto, ON. > > --Toby From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sat Nov 5 12:43:12 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:43:12 -0400 Subject: FTGH: COGNOS software kit In-Reply-To: References: <5769c634-845b-b866-5802-a49fac01cce3@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <891dcfa8-122e-1375-af53-1546b33bef9e@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-11-05 1:28 PM, SPC wrote: > Cognos aka Quasar Corporation and its 4GL language 'PowerHouse'. > Originally produced for the HP3000 and later acquired by IBM and later > by UNICOM. > > I've never worked with this stuff but I'm curious. There was a PC > versi?n, by the way. This box contains a sleeve for a PC demo version but sadly the floppies are not included. > > I've live in Europe but if no one want it I could be. It's sad the > lack of software. Note the software itself doesn't seem to be in the box. If there is real interest in the contents of the binders then I do have means to scan them. But ultimately I don't want to store a big box of paper forever. --Toby > > Regards > Sergio > > 2016-11-05 18:15 GMT+01:00 Toby Thain : >> Hi, >> >> I've had this box for a few years and wanted to see if it's interesting to >> anyone on the list. >> >> http://imgur.com/a/dm1vR >> >> Apparently everything but the software itself. :/ >> >> If there is genuine interest I can list the contents of the box. It won't be >> cheap to ship though. Located in Toronto, ON. >> >> --Toby > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 12:59:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 10:59:38 -0700 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: A scan I did this morning will be up on bitsavers by 13:00 PDT On 11/5/16 9:36 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > They said they were working on it.. > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keven >> Miller >> Sent: 05 November 2016 13:04 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >> >> I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. >> So the link must have gotten fixed. >> >> I've placed here just in case: >> >> http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx- >> 80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf >> >> Keven Miller >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Scott Kevill" >> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >> >> Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM >> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >> >> >> >> On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> >>> Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical >> Manual? >>> >>> It's apparently intended to be available here: >>> >>> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- >> Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ >>> but I was unable to actually download it. >> >> > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 5 12:59:32 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 17:59:32 -0000 Subject: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 References: <005f01d23763$94e2b0a0$bea811e0$@ntlworld.com> <241bfdc9-87fc-b335-f8f2-525c188fc725@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <008001d2378e$5cb2a160$1617e420$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: Rob Jarratt [mailto:robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com] > Sent: 05 November 2016 15:53 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al > Kossow > > Sent: 05 November 2016 14:44 > > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Newbie Question: How to Enable Local Logins on TSS/8 > > > > see TSS8_8.24_ManagersGuide > > > > "on" > > > > at the console with the operator logged on > > > > > Thanks for the suggestion. I tried it but it doesn't seem to help. Every > character I type on the terminal causes the bell to ring, it does not respond to > RETURN. If I type CTRL-C then it prints: > > ?LOGGING IN ON LOCAL TERMINALS IS CURRENTLY DISALLOWED > > Is there something else that is needed? > I have just realised that this is almost certainly nothing to do with TSS/8. I have tried to connect SIMH via reverse telnet to my Teletype via a DECserver 90M (I do this successfully with the PDP10 emulation), but I think SIMH has not made the connection to the DECserver, and so the message above is most likely coming from the DECserver itself. So I think this is a SIMH problem, I need to work out if the PDP8 TTIX emulation can do outbound telnet like the DZ can. Regards Rob From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:24:39 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:24:39 -0500 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Ken Seefried wrote: > Noticed this on Nekochan: > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16731198 This is making me a bit sad. Not over the fact I can't take on another computer the size of a small car - those days are likely behind me and for good reason - but that this is in that class of machines that will likely never be emulated in software. I'm guessing it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to technical documentation on the architecture than pure lack of interest, given the obscure machines that have been emulated. It's not far from me. Maybe I can rescue the docs... From vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 13:44:25 2016 From: vintagecomputersmn at gmail.com (Mister PDP) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:44:25 -0500 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I don't usually post here so if I am somehow posting wrong please tell me. This popped up on the VCF yesterday and I have been talking with the guy and am going to go pick it up on Sunday, I will be picking up the computer and the software and hopefully all the manuals too. I am going to archive all the software and manuals that do not already exist on the internet. Just thought I would put that out there... (VCF Thread Link: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54749-Ibm-5360-free-pickup-only) Thank you On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 1:24 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Ken Seefried wrote: > > Noticed this on Nekochan: > > http://forums.nekochan.net/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=16731198 > > This is making me a bit sad. Not over the fact I can't take on > another computer the size of a small car - those days are likely > behind me and for good reason - but that this is in that class of > machines that will likely never be emulated in software. I'm guessing > it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to > technical documentation on the architecture than pure lack of > interest, given the obscure machines that have been emulated. > > It's not far from me. Maybe I can rescue the docs... > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 5 13:50:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 14:50:17 -0400 (EDT) Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee Message-ID: <20161105185017.1A5A618C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > I don't usually post here so if I am somehow posting wrong please tell > me. Nope, you're good. Good luck with the machine! And thanks ever so much for posting all the info that goes with it. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 14:07:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:07:43 -0700 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> On 11/5/16 11:24 AM, Jason T wrote: > I'm guessing > it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to > technical documentation on the architecture S/32 - 36 are fairly well documented. It's just non-trivial to do the work and would require someone to reverse-engineer with a machine next to them. S34 would probably be easier though since it only has one processor and didn't have quite as much LSI in it. If you need some place to dump the resulting scans and disk images, I can put them on bitsavers. I still have several boxes of S/36 documentation in the backlog. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 14:10:09 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:10:09 -0700 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> References: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <27ad0af9-92c2-ef53-276d-770fe198e227@bitsavers.org> oh, and FWIW the 'monitor' you need is a Twinax terminal. They are a bit more comomon than coax ones and seem to be less desirable. On 11/5/16 12:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/5/16 11:24 AM, Jason T wrote: >> I'm guessing >> it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to >> technical documentation on the architecture > > S/32 - 36 are fairly well documented. It's just non-trivial to do the work > and would require someone to reverse-engineer with a machine next to them. > > S34 would probably be easier though since it only has one processor and > didn't have quite as much LSI in it. > > If you need some place to dump the resulting scans and disk images, I can > put them on bitsavers. I still have several boxes of S/36 documentation in > the backlog. > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Sat Nov 5 15:25:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 20:25:51 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: <2848c998-a443-95a0-a8ba-64ba57b16ba7@e-bbes.com> References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> , <2848c998-a443-95a0-a8ba-64ba57b16ba7@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: > I have one question: > > How does it check, how much RAM is in it? > Boot shows 128K, but the board has 512K Incidentally there is a .zip file on Bitsavers called SageSources. Unpack it, and in Sources1 look at PROM2.TXT. That is part of the 68000 source for the boot ROM and contains the RAM test. -tony From radioengr at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 15:34:15 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:34:15 -0700 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> Message-ID: On 11/4/2016 8:16 PM, Mark G Thomas wrote: > Hi, > > Does anyone have any available? I don't need the paddles, just the > the ON-OFF-ON momentary switches. > > I got good ON-OFF address/data ones from Herb Johnson, but the momentary > ON-OFF-ON ones I have are worn out and do not return to center properly. > > Mark I think you're looking for the following (available at Mouser) The bare switch isn't in stock but you can get that switch and replace the paddle. It's a $5.33 experiment. That's what I've got in my 'box-o-spares', anyway. YMMV. BTW, the red paddle is a very good color match to the IMSAI. The blue paddle is a way different color. Rob From drb at msu.edu Sat Nov 5 12:03:11 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 13:03:11 -0400 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: (Your message of Sat, 05 Nov 2016 15:02:40 +0100.) References: Message-ID: <20161105170311.A4059A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > - Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I > believe the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the > ones used on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me. All three look to me like QIC drives using DC600 cartridges. For the Convexen this also makes sense, because we had a C240 at work in the 90s, and software distribution tapes for it were on DC600 carts. (I have a box of them I need to image.) De From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 12:06:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 10:06:35 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: apparently, these are links only Chrome understands they are pictures of intel cartridges are the tapes physically still in tact? On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff-lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfdw=w1920-h1200-rw-no > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtRp6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 5 13:02:49 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:02:49 -0500 Subject: Tandem K2000 up for auction Message-ID: <20161105180249.GA5351@lonesome.com> Just went through the proxibid site looking for more "treasures". Anyone in Miami FL need a new-in-crate Tandem K2000? Oh yeah you have to take all the junk next to it :-) https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Tandem-Server-Speakers-Cash-Registers-and-Toner-Cartridges/33027547/LotDetail.asp?lid=33027547&origin=1 mcl From ian.finder at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 14:16:02 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 12:16:02 -0700 Subject: Tandem K2000 up for auction In-Reply-To: <20161105180249.GA5351@lonesome.com> References: <20161105180249.GA5351@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Yeah too bad it's in the same lot as a bunch of cash registers?! WTF. Some local bottom-feeding reseller is sure to buy it to try and resell the cash registers, and will probably junk the tandem. :( If it weren't for the junk, I'd bid. On Saturday, November 5, 2016, Mark Linimon wrote: > Just went through the proxibid site looking for more "treasures". > Anyone in Miami FL need a new-in-crate Tandem K2000? Oh yeah you > have to take all the junk next to it :-) > > https://www.proxibid.com/aspr/Tandem-Server-Speakers-Cash- > Registers-and-Toner-Cartridges/33027547/LotDetail. > asp?lid=33027547&origin=1 > > mcl > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Nov 5 15:26:13 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:26:13 +0200 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > apparently, these are links only Chrome understands > they are pictures of intel cartridges > > are the tapes physically still in tact? > > > On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > > I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff- > lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_ > 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd > w=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR > p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > > > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 15:33:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 13:33:06 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> The tape belts can be replaced. As long as the tape was not physically damaged it is worth spending time on recovering these, especially the SysV tape and the tools I just checked in the CHM catalog, and we have almost nothing for the Intel hypercubes though we have almost every model of machine. On 11/5/16 1:26 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> apparently, these are links only Chrome understands >> they are pictures of intel cartridges >> >> are the tapes physically still in tact? >> >> >> On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: >>> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff- >> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_ >> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd >> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR >> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no >>> >> >> >> From phb.hfx at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 17:40:56 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 19:40:56 -0300 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> References: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <581E5FF8.2010800@gmail.com> On 2016-11-05 4:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/5/16 11:24 AM, Jason T wrote: >> I'm guessing >> it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to >> technical documentation on the architecture > S/32 - 36 are fairly well documented. It's just non-trivial to do the work > and would require someone to reverse-engineer with a machine next to them. > > S34 would probably be easier though since it only has one processor and > didn't have quite as much LSI in it. > > If you need some place to dump the resulting scans and disk images, I can > put them on bitsavers. I still have several boxes of S/36 documentation in > the backlog. > > The architecture of both the S/34 and S/36 is very similar and both of teem include two processors the CSP and MSP. The CSP handled most of the I/O operations as well as getting the system off the ground while the MSP processor executed the user programs. Even the S/32 is very similar. The S/32 was a single user machine with up to 64K of memory, a 10MB disk and either a dot matrix or belt printer built in. The S/34 added more memory and multi user capability. S/36 again increased the maximum memory, had faster processors, a much improved user interface on the OS (SSP) and added one more instruction. The MSP memory in the S/34 and S/36 was divided into 64K segments and no program object could be larger than 64K. The hardware itself is pretty unspectacular, the main reason for the popularity of S/36 was the availability of software and the ease of use of the system. They where commonly found in small businesses that had no DP staff, at a lot of my S/36 customers, the person looking after the S/36 was the controller. The user interface on the AS/400 was largely based on the S/36 SSP. Paul. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 19:10:55 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 13:10:55 +1300 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 4:41 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/04/2016 11:17 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> Am I correct that the Altair 8800(A/B) also uses those type of >> switch? >> >> If so, I need one or two as well.. my own, lone 8800 isn't quite what >> it could be, IIRC. Had to sub switches. > > Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used on > the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit > easier to locate. > > I'd probably start here: > > http://www.ckswitches.com/product-selection/toggle/ > > if I were looking for a replacement. > > --Chuck I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 19:42:03 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 18:42:03 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: When it rains it pours! :-) Thanks, everyone! From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 20:45:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 18:45:12 -0700 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles > physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the > bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or > another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are > fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post > a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a manufacturer's web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with 10.67 mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. Beats spending time on the phone talking to "inside sales". --Chuck From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:56:55 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 20:56:55 -0500 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: "Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used on the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit easier to locate." Right, I thought about that once I'd posted. My 8800A (with B supplies) still has the basic mini bat-handle style switches. Correct me on this, but the later Altair 8800B use the paddle-style handle, same as the IMSAI? On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > > I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles > > physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the > > bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or > > another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are > > fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post > > a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. > > > The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a manufacturer's > web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, > for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with 10.67 > mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. > > Beats spending time on the phone talking to "inside sales". > > --Chuck > From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Nov 5 21:01:07 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 05 Nov 2016 22:01:07 -0400 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: The "B" model used a flatted bat handle toggle switch which IIRC weren't made by C&K. I think I may have the number somewhere but I think there was a thread with this info a few years ago. A Google search might produce it. The Altair group archive on Yahoo might have it too. The IMSAI uses a plastic paddle switch. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Nov 5, 2016, at 9:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > "Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used on > the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit > easier to locate." > > Right, I thought about that once I'd posted. > > My 8800A (with B supplies) still has the basic mini bat-handle style > switches. Correct me on this, but the later Altair 8800B use the > paddle-style handle, same as the IMSAI? > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >>> On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> >>> I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles >>> physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the >>> bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or >>> another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are >>> fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post >>> a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. >> >> >> The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a manufacturer's >> web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, >> for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with 10.67 >> mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. >> >> Beats spending time on the phone talking to "inside sales". >> >> --Chuck >> From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:11:33 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 15:11:33 +1300 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 2:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles >> physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the >> bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or >> another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are >> fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post >> a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. > > > The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a manufacturer's > web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, > for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with 10.67 > mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. So you reckon those 7105SY9V3BE would suit the Altair? OK I'll go shopping. I've had a wee Google for Altair pics and mine seems to be an oddball. Most of the pics I've seen have all the switches the small type with rounded 'baseball bat' ends. A couple had all the switches the larger type with rectangular 'cricket bat' ends. Mine is the only one I've ever seen with a mixture; small switches for address and data - large for the control switches. See: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Cwi1aInUsAAW5Zn.jpg Anyone seen another like this? Cheers Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:25:16 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 21:25:16 -0500 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: Oh duh for me! Confusion reigns supreme. Yes.. the IMSAI uses those really wide plastic paddle switches.. that I had always assumed were a +Carling+ part, as Carling has a line of switches with similar handles. Altair 8800A and B both use the metal mini-toggles - the former, bat-handle the latter, the narrow metal paddle-handle. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > The "B" model used a flatted bat handle toggle switch which IIRC weren't > made by C&K. I think I may have the number somewhere but I think there was > a thread with this info a few years ago. A Google search might produce it. > The Altair group archive on Yahoo might have it too. > > The IMSAI uses a plastic paddle switch. > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Nov 5, 2016, at 9:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > "Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used on > > the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit > > easier to locate." > > > > Right, I thought about that once I'd posted. > > > > My 8800A (with B supplies) still has the basic mini bat-handle style > > switches. Correct me on this, but the later Altair 8800B use the > > paddle-style handle, same as the IMSAI? > > > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> > >>> On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >>> > >>> I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles > >>> physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the > >>> bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or > >>> another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are > >>> fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post > >>> a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. > >> > >> > >> The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a manufacturer's > >> web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, > >> for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with 10.67 > >> mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. > >> > >> Beats spending time on the phone talking to "inside sales". > >> > >> --Chuck > >> > > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 21:37:19 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:37:19 -0400 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: As far as I know, the original Altair 8800 uses the normal full bat handle switches. The Altair 8800a and 8800b use flat bat handled switches as shown on mine here: http://vintagecomputer.ca/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/MITS-Tower.jpg I had to find some of the flat bat handled switches and the authentic ones are almost impossible to find. I happened to find a person who worked at MITS that had some spares. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:25 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Oh duh for me! Confusion reigns supreme. > > Yes.. the IMSAI uses those really wide plastic paddle switches.. that I had > always assumed were a +Carling+ part, as Carling has a line of switches > with similar handles. > > Altair 8800A and B both use the metal mini-toggles - the former, bat-handle > the latter, the narrow metal paddle-handle. > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 9:01 PM, Richard Cini > wrote: > > > The "B" model used a flatted bat handle toggle switch which IIRC weren't > > made by C&K. I think I may have the number somewhere but I think there > was > > a thread with this info a few years ago. A Google search might produce > it. > > The Altair group archive on Yahoo might have it too. > > > > The IMSAI uses a plastic paddle switch. > > > > Rich > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Nov 5, 2016, at 9:56 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > > > "Not exactly--momentary, yes, but clearly not the paddle switches used > on > > > the IMSAI. Fortunately, PCB-mount toggle switches are quite a bit > > > easier to locate." > > > > > > Right, I thought about that once I'd posted. > > > > > > My 8800A (with B supplies) still has the basic mini bat-handle style > > > switches. Correct me on this, but the later Altair 8800B use the > > > paddle-style handle, same as the IMSAI? > > > > > >> On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 8:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > >> > > >>> On 11/05/2016 05:10 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > >>> > > >>> I need those too - some of my Altair switches have the handles > > >>> physically broken... in fact pretty much ALL the large switches (the > > >>> bottom row for run/deposit/exam/reset etc.) are ropey in one way or > > >>> another and need replacing (the smaller data/address switches are > > >>> fine). If anyone tracks down the correct type of switch please post > > >>> a link here! Or if you have any for sale shoot me an email. > > >> > > >> > > >> The site I linked to from C&K is a good example of how a > manufacturer's > > >> web site should be--parameterized search with vendor stock check. So, > > >> for example, the momentary on-off-on 20V PC mount unthreaded with > 10.67 > > >> mm handle would be 7105SY9V3BE--and Arrow has about 150 in stock. > > >> > > >> Beats spending time on the phone talking to "inside sales". > > >> > > >> --Chuck > > >> > > > > > From cclist at sydex.com Sat Nov 5 21:45:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 19:45:27 -0700 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3e2ee20e-594a-d1b3-6e37-0fba68456311@sydex.com> On 11/05/2016 07:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > So you reckon those 7105SY9V3BE would suit the Altair? OK I'll go > shopping. That's just an estimate from memory. I'd have to dig my 8800 out, dust it off and make measurements. Note that the part I linked to is center-off-momentary SPDT. Clearly, not all of the switches on the Altair are like that. There are, of course, lots of other switch vendors, NKK, e-switch... But the C&K selector is by far the easiest to use. --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:21:58 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:21:58 +1300 Subject: WTB several IMSAI-8080 ON-OFF-ON momentary switches In-Reply-To: <3e2ee20e-594a-d1b3-6e37-0fba68456311@sydex.com> References: <20161105031653.GB8753@allie.home.misty.com> <30965895-2110-7b62-1cb9-f28930527ff5@sydex.com> <3e2ee20e-594a-d1b3-6e37-0fba68456311@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/05/2016 07:11 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> So you reckon those 7105SY9V3BE would suit the Altair? OK I'll go >> shopping. > > > That's just an estimate from memory. I'd have to dig my 8800 out, dust > it off and make measurements. > > Note that the part I linked to is center-off-momentary SPDT. Clearly, > not all of the switches on the Altair are like that. > > There are, of course, lots of other switch vendors, NKK, e-switch... > But the C&K selector is by far the easiest to use. Ahhh ok. I know the square root of bugger all about Altairs; I'm mostly a DEC pdp and IBM mainframe/midrange guy. I picked up the Altair a few years ago as an 'oh by the way' thing when I saw it at a cheap price; I'm only just getting into it now. It does basically work; it seems to be running some kind of ROM because when I power it up it runs and the lights chase like a register increment thing. But can't do much else due to broken/flaky switches. I'll pick up some Altair schematics and see what's called for in each switch position. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:31:48 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:31:48 -0500 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Brilliant, ain't it? Thanks to all, I've stowed a copy for myself as well. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:42 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > When it rains it pours! :-) > > Thanks, everyone! > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 5 23:04:38 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 21:04:38 -0700 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee (also ebay has one) In-Reply-To: <581E5FF8.2010800@gmail.com> References: <5858d558-aed3-e83c-b0df-930ae8c18214@bitsavers.org> <581E5FF8.2010800@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/5/2016 3:40 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-11-05 4:07 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 11/5/16 11:24 AM, Jason T wrote: >>> I'm guessing >>> it's far more due to IBM having never released anything close to >>> technical documentation on the architecture >> S/32 - 36 ar probably more expensive, there is a 36 on epay for 350 bucks (1 bid) 1985-IBM-5364-S-36-PC-2-HDD-Floppy-Drive-Interface-Cable-PC-Driver-Card-/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/182337093160 thanks, Jim From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Nov 5 23:12:01 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 00:12:01 -0400 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? Message-ID: <93f1a0.f5a8894.45500791@aol.com> Kevin - - remember HP did this... using the MX-80 also... (data from hpmuseum.com) Name: 82905 Product Number: 82905 Introduced: 1981 Division: _Corvallis_ (http://hpmuseum.net/divisions.php?did=18) Ad: _Click to see with HP-87_ (http://hpmuseum.net/upload_htmlFile/PrintAds/Ad1982_May_HP-87_Spectrum-32.jpg) Original Price: $945 Catalog Reference: 1982, page 655 Donated by: Russell Warmington, HP Australia. Description: The 82905A was a low-end, narrow-carriadge dot matrix printer made by Epson. HP obtained this printer primarily for use with the _80 Series_ (http://hpmuseum.net/exhibit.php?class=1&cat=9) computers. The 82905A had a print speed of 80 characters per second. The dot character cell was 9 x 9 and graphics printing resolution was possible up to 72 x 120 dots per inch. The 82905B, introduced in 1982 (at $795) offered an optional HP-IL interface. The 82905A was OEM'ed from Epson by the Corvallis Division. The product was transferred to the Vancouver Division in 1982. and then with the FX 80! Impact Selection: Name: 82906 Product Number: 82906 Introduced: 1983 Division: _Personal Computer Division_ (http://www.hpmuseum.net/divisions.php?did=18) Original Price: $995 Catalog Reference: 1984, page 594 Description: The 82906A, like the _82905A_ (http://hpmuseum.net/display_item.php?hw=321) was also OEM'd from Epson (model FX-80) by HP. It was faster (160 characters per second), with a higher resolution dot cell matrix (9 x 11). Maximum resolution in graphics printing was 72 dots per inch. In a message dated 11/5/2016 8:57:56 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, kevenm at reeltapetransfer.com writes: I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. So the link must have gotten fixed. I've placed here just in case: http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx-80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technica l_manual.pdf Keven Miller ----- Original Message ----- From: "Scott Kevill" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical Manual? > > It's apparently intended to be available here: > > http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot-Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > but I was unable to actually download it. From silent700 at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 23:38:58 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 23:38:58 -0500 Subject: S/36 in Milwalkee In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Mister PDP wrote: > This popped up on the VCF yesterday and I have been talking with the guy > and am going to go pick it up on Sunday, I will be picking up the computer > and the software and hopefully all the manuals too. I am going to archive I had written to owner saying I could pick up the manuals but not the machine. Good to see someone is getting it all! -j From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 01:55:02 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (curiousmarc3 at gmail.com) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 00:55:02 -0700 Subject: Tek 4051 with a 10 year old at the helm In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <795A37B1-D80B-43A7-AA2C-98F0A5270505@gmail.com> Sweet! Marc > On Nov 4, 2016, at 5:03 PM, Randy Dawson wrote: > > Here is my daughter Gina, I thought you guys would like, Tek is still exciting. > > > Sure, we have lots of PC's around the house, but this is the first one that she is programming, and programming the 4051 creates a smile. > > > Randy > > > https://youtu.be/o0LiYkHG3iE > From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sat Nov 5 15:57:26 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 22:57:26 +0200 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully: iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3 iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1 iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1 There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also damaged. In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860 I hope I've been useful. On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 10:33 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The tape belts can be replaced. As long as the tape was not physically > damaged > it is worth spending time on recovering these, especially the SysV tape > and the tools > > I just checked in the CHM catalog, and we have almost nothing for the > Intel hypercubes > though we have almost every model of machine. > > > On 11/5/16 1:26 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > > AFAIR only 2 or 3 survived due to bad tape cartridge belt > > > > On Sat, Nov 5, 2016 at 7:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >> apparently, these are links only Chrome understands > >> they are pictures of intel cartridges > >> > >> are the tapes physically still in tact? > >> > >> > >> On 11/5/16 8:46 AM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > >>> I have some Paragon tapes, which I didn't manage to recover fully: > >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/k-ccRPWd1TCIGU5wMKTSff- > >> lZns2BIBIYz2IhZwofwTrteTiFCPsppZLBX7zxxEuH81P4zM7XQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1wdKJgu8hbkd_ > >> 1Se3epo10MZt4hWTjNK6kLifHoV9Z9EUXwtJXurEHEmyuE1xXZ53Jc2bVUfd > >> w=w1920-h1200-rw-no > >>> https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tNanwmBqRs9P7Wm0cs69G0LbQa6CtR > >> p6XMi6xYBmPuZ4l6tltQB1DngzVwrXUe3LmFfzc_aDJQ=w1920-h1200-rw-no > >>> > >> > >> > >> > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 5 16:08:23 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 14:08:23 -0700 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: check out http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data-block-format-decoding.html he may be willing to try recovering what still exists on the tape like I say, what is there is pretty important to recover. On 11/5/16 1:57 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged > I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully: > > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3 > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1 > iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1 > > There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also > damaged. > In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860 > From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Sat Nov 5 16:30:44 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 21:30:44 +0000 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can take the Titan off your hands if you like, I have really wanted this machine. I am serious, and with $$. Here is some things for you if you decide to keep it and turn me down. A great book, all about its development and includes technical details about the Titan bus, and an intro By Gordon Bell: The "Architecture of Supercomputers, Titan, a Case Study" Daniel P. Siewiorek, Philip Jonathan Koopman, Jr. ISBN 0-12-643060-8 This was sort of a promotional book, the sales guys would give this out to customers, also a complete shelf of documentation. Their target market was scientific visualization, they had Stellar jumping into this also, so it was West Coast vs East coast and their was not enough market anyway, even as sexy as scientific visualization was at the time. They merged, then failed as Stardent. Silicon Graphics hung on for bit longer with the movie industry, then they fell too. (Note that Google HQ is the SGI building, I find it disgusting that they put pink flamingos around the Jurassic Park dino statue.) The key software on the Ardent is Advanced Visualization System, AVS, an Ardent product that survived and still exists today. It is a graphical data-flow type application, much like Labview or GNURadio are two examples that come to mind. You wire up function blocks to process and create the visualization stream, then the last key element is their Dore' (Dynamic Object Rendering Environment) that does all the wow factor graphics in realtime. There was a knob box too, for XYZ or manipulating the data. The Ardent roadshow had 'FLAG' as a demo with the knob box, you could adjust windspeed and direction, lighting also to see a fully rendered finite element model of a cloth flag waving in the wind in realtime. Pretty impressive for the late '80s. When it all crashed Kubota came in for the rescue (a tractor company???!!! wha? ) The spun out one more machine based on Intel's 'Cray on a chip' the i860. I saw one of these, it was a desktop uinit, and reminded me of SGI's Indy. Dore' is still out there and released to public domain, it was one of the 'ports' in FreeBSD. I did get it up and running with the 'Flag' demo. I hope you get yours up and running on the real hardware. Randy ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of Camiel Vanderhoeven Sent: Saturday, November 5, 2016 7:02 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the 1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition. The systems are: * Convex C1-XP * Convex C1-XL * Intel iPSC/860 * Ardent Titan Pictures of these can be found on my website, at http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers Four Supercomputers - VAXBARN www.vaxbarn.com Hopefully, if all goes well, I will soon be the owner of three four 1980's (mini-)supercomputers, although I'm not 100% sure exactly what they are (more on that when ... (click on the thumbnails to see a larger version) I'd like to get in touch with anyone who knows anything about these machines, as well as anyone who may have documentation, but I also have two specific questions: - Can anyone identify the tape drives shown in the pictures? I believe the one in the Intel iPSC/860 is an Exabyte 8mm one, but the ones used on the Convex and the Ardent are a mystery to me. - Does anyone know what the SRM (System Resource Manager) for the iPSC/860 physically looks like? Does it look like a PC, and does it say Intel on the front? Reason I'm asking is that I'm getting these out of an estate, and I need to tell them what to look for. Thanks, Camiel. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 20:34:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2016 19:34:35 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Around 1985, Tony Anderson of Intel gave me a tour of the Intel Scientific Computers operations at their Oregon facility. At the time they were building the 80286-based iPSC/1. Seemed like pretty neat stuff. That was where I learned that one shouldn't stick one's hands into a computer while wearing metal jewelry (rings, watches, etc.), even if only low voltages are present. Fortunately I didn't have to learn it the hard way. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Nov 5 22:36:22 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 16:36:22 +1300 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 3:37 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > let me see if I can get this scanned this morning > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102719961 > > you also REALLY want to get any docs and tapes/disks out of there > finding software is going to be extremely difficult Jim Austin now has my Convex C220 and he took a bunch of manuals and tapes I retrieved with the system. I *think* I was also able to supply him with the root password...! http://www.computermuseum.org.uk/fixed_pages/convex_c220.html Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ethan at 757.org Sun Nov 6 10:44:33 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 11:44:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I'm making arrangements to have four (mini-)supercomputers from the > 1980's shipped to me. In the mean time, I'm trying to find out what I > can about these systems, so this is a fishing expedition. > The systems are: > * Convex C1-XP > * Convex C1-XL > * Intel iPSC/860 > * Ardent Titan > Pictures of these can be found on my website, at > http://www.vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/27-odd/76-four-supercomputers > (click on the thumbnails to see a larger version) Wow! I don't know too much about Convex, but when I was younger I would go to NASA auctions trying to pick up SGI hardware, smaller supercomputers and ion laser systems. There was a Convex system at one of the earlier auctions I went to (NASA Langley in Hampton Virginia.) The thing is, I don't remember it being a "mini" supercomputer at all. It had the same gold decor that your images show, but it was large! Big cabinets! Like many of my peers here, I'm kind of a data hoarder so I just looked and sho' nuff I still have the pictures I took with an early digital camera at that NASA auction of the Convex that was up for sale: http://imgur.com/Pqr7dJ4 http://imgur.com/hbyZ9pV August 26, 2000! Anyways, I didn't think I'd ever hear of any of those systems again. Kudos! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 6 11:03:25 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 09:03:25 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/6/16 8:44 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > The thing is, I don't remember it being a "mini" supercomputer at all. It had the same gold decor that your images show, > but it was large! Big cabinets! > But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz, it's a 'mini' supercomputer. CHM was really into collecting this sort of iron in the late 90's as they were all getting scrapped. From ethan at 757.org Sun Nov 6 11:18:04 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 12:18:04 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > But smaller than the Crays of the era. > If it doesn't run on 400Hz, it's a 'mini' supercomputer. Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd! > CHM was really into collecting this sort of iron in the late 90's > as they were all getting scrapped. Don't know that person off the top of my head. I owned a Maspar MP2 at one point (small!) and have owned some Cray J90 series (heavy.) I still think large SGIs are the friendly "supercomputer." In my travels there is a guy named James who has/had a verrrrry nice Cray collection. Haven't talked to him in a few years though hope he is doing well. He had some of the 6000 pounders IIRC. -- Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 6 11:53:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 09:53:40 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21b40c9e-cf3e-cd2d-0844-07b46a50f70c@bitsavers.org> On 11/6/16 9:18 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > In my travels there is a guy named James who > has/had a verrrrry nice Cray collection. Haven't talked to him in a few years though hope he is doing well. He had some > of the 6000 pounders IIRC. > Supercomputer collectors are like the mainframe collectors, they like to keep a low profile other than the Cray-Cyber folks in Munich. I don't know what they do for software. We tried getting it with the last Cray we got, and got nowhere getting it released. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 6 12:46:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 10:46:03 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> On 11/06/2016 09:18 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz, >> it's a 'mini' supercomputer. > > Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and > such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe > flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd! Not at all--that goes back at least to the 1960s. Consider the CDC mainframes--MG sets providing 3-phase 400Hz power to variac-regulated 3-phase fullwave rectifier setups. The ripple frequency is 2400Hz and has a very high DC component. This is a very sensible arrangement, as the power supplies need not be tailored to a specific line voltage or frequency. I'm somewhat surprised that no one talks much about cooling systems on supercomputers, be it forced air or liquid nitrogen. Both Cray and CDC spent a fair amount of time and money on getting cooling to their big machines. How about cooling towers for the chilled water supply? --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 6 12:57:37 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 12:57:37 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> Message-ID: <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> On 11/06/2016 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/06/2016 09:18 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >>> But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz, >>> it's a 'mini' supercomputer. >> Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and >> such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe >> flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd! > Not at all--that goes back at least to the 1960s. Consider the CDC > mainframes--MG sets providing 3-phase 400Hz power to variac-regulated > 3-phase fullwave rectifier setups. The ripple frequency is 2400Hz and > has a very high DC component. > > All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power. The mid-sized ones had the motor-generator set built into the back of the machine. The 415 Hz (regulated) power was transformed to low voltage and run through an inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated. They had a circuit they called an "electronic capacitor" that pulled extra current through the inductor during the voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current during the voltage valleys. This reduced the ripple current on the capacitor banks. The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, produced by a "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that converted utility 3-phase power to DC, then inverted it with an SCR inverter. This made the DC power supplies in the machine quite small. Since they ran off regulated 2500 Hz power, they dropped only a very small voltage across the series-pass transistor. Jon From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Sun Nov 6 11:19:22 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 19:19:22 +0200 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <4b6ed415-163b-cf6e-5653-042b4a7859f1@bitsavers.org> <6c54c038-b605-8b6f-89ef-a6fa7f991e64@bitsavers.org> <0a1593ba-4b1f-4614-1fea-2451ae7e5143@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: The tapes are already spoken few weeks ago and they will travel to US. I will share whatever is able to be recovered. On Saturday, November 5, 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > check out http://mightyframe.blogspot.com/2015/08/qic-24-tape-data- > block-format-decoding.html > > he may be willing to try recovering what still exists on the tape > > like I say, what is there is pretty important to recover. > > On 11/5/16 1:57 PM, Plamen Mihaylov wrote: > > All other tapes are far beyond repair, they are physically damaged > > I double checked what I have been able to dump successfully: > > > > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3 > > iPSC/860 Extensions Software R3.3.1 > > iPSC/860 Optional Software R3.3.1 > > > > There were two more tapes - fortran compilers and forge software - also > > damaged. > > In case you are interested I've uploaded the dumps afterpeople.com/i860 > > > > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:25:25 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:25:25 +0000 Subject: New email address Message-ID: My ISP (which I have used for 20-odd years) has decided to drop its e-mail service.... My new address (at least for the moment) is : ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com If any of you mail me privately, please use that from now on.... -tony From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 14:34:39 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 18:34:39 -0200 Subject: New email address In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Very easy to remember! :) 2016-11-06 18:25 GMT-02:00 Tony Duell : > My ISP (which I have used for 20-odd years) has decided to drop its e-mail > service.... > > My new address (at least for the moment) is : > > ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com > > If any of you mail me privately, please use that from now on.... > > -tony > From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 16:49:43 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 16:49:43 -0600 Subject: Mac SE NVRAM battery removal Message-ID: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> So I'm working my way (more slowly than I probably should be) through my systems, ditching ancient on-board batteries before they leak... In the case of the Mac SE's, are there any critical settings which I should make a note of before removing the on-board battery? Should I expect any issues trying to run the machines without? (I'm not inclined to replace batteries unless I have to, just so I don't have to worry about replacement again in x years time) cheers Jules From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Nov 6 20:01:18 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 21:01:18 -0500 Subject: DEC DELQA - seems not to work. Anyone got a spare? [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: <544D466F.9020409@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20141021113814.CCEED18C0CD@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <544D466F.9020409@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <3fcc4e61-4de7-3fea-a960-802b87ff4efe@telegraphics.com.au> On 2014-10-26 3:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 21/10/14 7:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Toby Thain >> >> > Looking to see what the internal self-test returns as an error >> code >> > (that can be done with console ODT, it doesn't need a program) is >> > probably the first step in diagnosing. >>... > OK, after powerup, the bits of the VAR register (e/w/p 2000192c) are > D800, i.e. the test result bits VAR12:10 are 1,1,0 - meaning RAM test > failed. Hi all, As an update to this project, I can report that the DELQA has been repaired with four new static RAM chips, and now the MicroVAX II's network is fully working (including netboot). Credit due to Joe Zatarski (joe_z) who did a beautiful job of desoldering and putting sockets in for the four RAM chips. --Toby > > I must be doing something wrong running the test manually, though - > >>>> d/w/p 2000192c 2000 > > Just leaves 2000 in the VAR register, permanently. > > --Toby > > >> >> Noel >> > > From kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com Sun Nov 6 20:12:01 2016 From: kd7bcy at kd7bcy.com (John Rollins) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 18:12:01 -0800 Subject: Mac SE NVRAM battery removal In-Reply-To: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> References: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7479B8F7-095F-45E6-B202-F8C7787D05E8@kd7bcy.com> You just made me think that I need to go check on some of my stuff and see what the batteries are doing? Been quite a while since I used a lot of them. On an old Mac, quite often the reason for a machine to not boot at all would be a dead PRAM battery, so complete removal may not be an option. You could test it, but don?t expect much. As for what is stored in there besides date/time, a quick search shows that it is likely storing data on startup disk ID, AppleTalk status, monitor settings, volume, mouse speed, and energy saver settings. > On Nov 6, 2016, at 14:49 , Jules Richardson wrote: > > > So I'm working my way (more slowly than I probably should be) through my systems, ditching ancient on-board batteries before they leak... > > In the case of the Mac SE's, are there any critical settings which I should make a note of before removing the on-board battery? Should I expect any issues trying to run the machines without? (I'm not inclined to replace batteries unless I have to, just so I don't have to worry about replacement again in x years time) > > cheers > > Jules > From jzatar2 at illinois.edu Sun Nov 6 20:13:10 2016 From: jzatar2 at illinois.edu (Joseph Zatarski) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:13:10 -0600 Subject: DEC DELQA - seems not to work. Anyone got a spare? [SOLVED] Message-ID: >On 2014-10-26 3:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >>* On 21/10/14 7:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: *>>>* > From: Toby Thain *>>>>>>* > Looking to see what the internal self-test returns as an error *>>>* code *>>>* > (that can be done with console ODT, it doesn't need a program) is *>>>* > probably the first step in diagnosing. *>>>*... *>>* OK, after powerup, the bits of the VAR register (e/w/p 2000192c) are *>>* D800, i.e. the test result bits VAR12:10 are 1,1,0 - meaning RAM test *>>* failed. *> >Hi all, > >As an update to this project, I can report that the DELQA has been >repaired with four new static RAM chips, and now the MicroVAX II's >network is fully working (including netboot). > >Credit due to Joe Zatarski (joe_z) who did a beautiful job of >desoldering and putting sockets in for the four RAM chips. > >--Toby Glad to have helped :) Joe Zatarski >>>>* I must be doing something wrong running the test manually, though - *>>>>>>>* d/w/p 2000192c 2000 *>>>>* Just leaves 2000 in the VAR register, permanently. *>>>>* --Toby *>>>>>>>>>>* Noel *>>>>>>> From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 6 20:21:12 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 20:21:12 -0600 Subject: Mac SE NVRAM battery removal In-Reply-To: <7479B8F7-095F-45E6-B202-F8C7787D05E8@kd7bcy.com> References: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> <7479B8F7-095F-45E6-B202-F8C7787D05E8@kd7bcy.com> Message-ID: Jules, No - go ahead and remove. The battery retains the PRAM data, which is generally not a user-accessible feature in the way CMOS RAM is on x86. The PRAM will be restored on next boot - but obviously, some things (like virtual memory) will need to be re-enabled. Not a big deal at all. On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 8:12 PM, John Rollins wrote: > You just made me think that I need to go check on some of my stuff and see > what the batteries are doing? Been quite a while since I used a lot of them. > > On an old Mac, quite often the reason for a machine to not boot at all > would be a dead PRAM battery, so complete removal may not be an option. You > could test it, but don?t expect much. As for what is stored in there > besides date/time, a quick search shows that it is likely storing data on > startup disk ID, AppleTalk status, monitor settings, volume, mouse speed, > and energy saver settings. > > > On Nov 6, 2016, at 14:49 , Jules Richardson < > jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > > So I'm working my way (more slowly than I probably should be) through my > systems, ditching ancient on-board batteries before they leak... > > > > In the case of the Mac SE's, are there any critical settings which I > should make a note of before removing the on-board battery? Should I expect > any issues trying to run the machines without? (I'm not inclined to replace > batteries unless I have to, just so I don't have to worry about replacement > again in x years time) > > > > cheers > > > > Jules > > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 21:09:01 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 03:09:01 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool Message-ID: I've been making a debugging ROM board to test out the various parts of the KIM-1. It is based on taking over the KIM at reset and running test. So far I've got two test working. One is a basic, is it running test that just blinks a light on the debug board. The next is a test of the first 1K of RAM. A little tricky to do without RAM. I expect to write some more for the RRIOT ics. If anyone has interest, they can follow me on the Vintage Computer Forum or contact me here. The board has 3 ttl ICs, a 2764/27128 EPROM, a couple LEDs and a dip switch. Also a few pullup resistors and capacitors. Dwight From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Mon Nov 7 00:25:16 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2016 22:25:16 -0800 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> > I've been making a debugging ROM board to test out the various > > parts of the KIM-1. It is based on taking over the KIM at reset > > and running test. > > So far I've got two test working. One is a basic, is it running test > > that just blinks a light on the debug board. > > The next is a test of the first 1K of RAM. > > A little tricky to do without RAM. > > I expect to write some more for the RRIOT ics. > > If anyone has interest, they can follow me on the Vintage > > Computer Forum or contact me here. > > The board has 3 ttl ICs, a 2764/27128 EPROM, a couple > > LEDs and a dip switch. Also a few pullup resistors and capacitors. > > Dwight Dwight, That is a pretty cool project. May I suggest you break it out on VCF into its own thread so people can more easily follow what is going on? For those interested in the original thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52155-KIM-1-No-Action/ -Ali From aswood at t-online.de Mon Nov 7 00:30:00 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 07:30:00 +0100 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: The Convex C38xx as well the Fujitsu VPP used isolation transformers. Luckily I was able to save the Transformer for my C3880. > Am 06.11.2016 um 19:57 schrieb Jon Elson : > >> On 11/06/2016 12:46 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> On 11/06/2016 09:18 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >>>> But smaller than the Crays of the era. If it doesn't run on 400Hz, >>>> it's a 'mini' supercomputer. >>> Hmmm I knew the earlier Crays often had motor generator setups and >>> such but I thoght that was just for power filtering and maybe >>> flywheels for ups setups. Didn't know they were 400hz! Odd! >> Not at all--that goes back at least to the 1960s. Consider the CDC >> mainframes--MG sets providing 3-phase 400Hz power to variac-regulated >> 3-phase fullwave rectifier setups. The ripple frequency is 2400Hz and >> has a very high DC component. >> >> > All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power. The mid-sized ones had the motor-generator set built into the back of the machine. The 415 Hz (regulated) power was transformed to low voltage and run through an inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated. They had a circuit they called an "electronic capacitor" that pulled extra current through the inductor during the voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current during the voltage valleys. This reduced the ripple current on the capacitor banks. > > The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, produced by a "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that converted utility 3-phase power to DC, then inverted it with an SCR inverter. This made the DC power supplies in the machine quite small. Since they ran off regulated 2500 Hz power, they dropped only a very small voltage across the series-pass transistor. > > Jon > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 6 14:46:51 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 15:46:51 -0500 Subject: looking for S100 EPROM programmer board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I ahve and can't find the manual for a: Digital research computer S100 EPROM Programmer Any info might help. Specific info needed is schematic and headers for various Eproms. Allison From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 6 22:41:47 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 04:41:47 +0000 Subject: looking for S100 EPROM programmer board. In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Most of these boards only do one or two types of eproms. I have a bit blaster that only does 2708/04 EPROMs. A couple hours on an extender card should be enough to figure one out, with a 'scope. They are usually not to complicated. Some latches for data and address. Some select bits and something to turn the programming voltage on and off. If it is intended for multiple EPROM types, there will be a bunch of resistors to select assorted voltages. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctech on behalf of allison Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 12:46:51 PM To: cctech at classiccmp.org Subject: looking for S100 EPROM programmer board. I ahve and can't find the manual for a: Digital research computer S100 EPROM Programmer Any info might help. Specific info needed is schematic and headers for various Eproms. Allison From geoffr at zipcon.net Mon Nov 7 00:32:30 2016 From: geoffr at zipcon.net (Geoffrey Reed) Date: Sun, 06 Nov 2016 23:32:30 -0700 Subject: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly In-Reply-To: <8C468C68-CF56-4B8C-896F-3A82B284BAE8@comcast.net> References: <8C468C68-CF56-4B8C-896F-3A82B284BAE8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/4/16, 7:22 AM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning" wrote: > >> On Nov 4, 2016, at 9:19 AM, Sam O'nella wrote: >> >> Out of curiosity and ignorance what's with the solder joints on the >>cards in the pictures? That orange color seems like it's everywhere >>around cold looking solder joints. Is that rust, some sort or >>protection, or acid corrosion?... >> >>> The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic >>>CPU, >>> you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9 > >I doubt it's any of those. That's the typical look of a board >hand-soldered with conventional rosin core solder. While it's possible >to remove that flux (thought I think the best solvents are non-PC), it is >often omitted and generally not needed. > > paul > > Yes, looking at those pictures that?s rosin. From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 7 04:59:33 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 05:59:33 -0500 Subject: looking for S100 EPROM programmer board. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for your opinion on this board. I've used it for maybe 25 years and its does all the 5V Eproms. Its currently configured for 27256. It does not do any of the three voltage eproms. Now a manual would be helpful, your comments are things I already know. I don't care to unwrap a S100 board with about 18 ICs and 6 voltage regulators. If I'm doing that I'll start from scratch. Info about the bitblaster is of no use. Allison On 11/06/2016 11:41 PM, dwight wrote: > Most of these boards only do one or two types of eproms. > > I have a bit blaster that only does 2708/04 EPROMs. > > A couple hours on an extender card should be enough to > > figure one out, with a 'scope. > > They are usually not to complicated. > > Some latches for data and address. Some select bits and > > something to turn the programming voltage on and off. > > If it is intended for multiple EPROM types, there will be a > > bunch of resistors to select assorted voltages. > > Dwight > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctech on behalf of allison > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 12:46:51 PM > To: cctech at classiccmp.org > Subject: looking for S100 EPROM programmer board. > > > I ahve and can't find the manual for a: > > Digital research computer S100 EPROM Programmer > > > Any info might help. Specific info needed is schematic and headers for > various Eproms. > > Allison > From holm at freibergnet.de Mon Nov 7 07:34:07 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 14:34:07 +0100 Subject: MACRO11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi, > > my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on > https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . > > Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. > > Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex > notation instead of octal. > I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern > logic analyzer. > > Joerg Thanks. Could you possible change all the occurences of stricmp() wich is a mikeysoft-only thing, to the more standard strcasecmp()? Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From toby at telegraphics.com.au Mon Nov 7 07:52:16 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:52:16 -0500 Subject: MACRO11 In-Reply-To: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: On 2016-11-07 8:34 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > J?rg Hoppe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on >> https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . >> >> Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. >> >> Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex >> notation instead of octal. >> I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern >> logic analyzer. >> >> Joerg > > Thanks. > > Could you possible change all the occurences of stricmp() wich is a > mikeysoft-only thing, to the more standard strcasecmp()? You could do a pull request on github, or if you don't have time, I could. --Toby > > Regards, > > Holm > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Nov 7 08:19:25 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 14:19:25 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> References: , <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> Message-ID: I still need to post the final schematic. A new thread might be a good idea. I wanted to keep the board as simple as possible so one could just wire wrap or point to point it. It only has a 7474, 7402 and a 7404 as well as the EPROM. It could easily be done with a GAL or PAL and the EPROM. I think two schematics showing each would be best. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 10:25:16 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: KIM-1 Debugging tool > I've been making a debugging ROM board to test out the various > > parts of the KIM-1. It is based on taking over the KIM at reset > > and running test. > > So far I've got two test working. One is a basic, is it running test > > that just blinks a light on the debug board. > > The next is a test of the first 1K of RAM. > > A little tricky to do without RAM. > > I expect to write some more for the RRIOT ics. > > If anyone has interest, they can follow me on the Vintage > > Computer Forum or contact me here. > > The board has 3 ttl ICs, a 2764/27128 EPROM, a couple > > LEDs and a dip switch. Also a few pullup resistors and capacitors. > > Dwight Dwight, That is a pretty cool project. May I suggest you break it out on VCF into its own thread so people can more easily follow what is going on? For those interested in the original thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52155-KIM-1-No-Action/ -Ali From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Nov 7 08:22:37 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 07:22:37 -0700 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> <2848c998-a443-95a0-a8ba-64ba57b16ba7@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On 2016-11-05 14:25, tony duell wrote: > >> I have one question: >> >> How does it check, how much RAM is in it? >> Boot shows 128K, but the board has 512K > > Incidentally there is a .zip file on Bitsavers called SageSources. Unpack it, > and in Sources1 look at PROM2.TXT. That is part of the 68000 source > for the boot ROM and contains the RAM test. Thanks! It looks like you are right, playing a little with the RAM banks, finally got me errors, so at least one chip is dead. Will take few days, until my replacements arrive, but now I have 384k of RAM ;-) Still crashes, but we will see. The original sockets on the board are cheap, sometimes it feels that the chips are barely hanging in there :( Cheers! From aswood at t-online.de Mon Nov 7 08:23:46 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 15:23:46 +0100 Subject: [ex-convex] Re: Fwd: Audio interview that mentions my Convex In-Reply-To: <27E44E87-B3E8-464B-8E44-49733783CDA5@gmail.com> References: <27E44E87-B3E8-464B-8E44-49733783CDA5@gmail.com> Message-ID: A very interesting story. Now we do need detailed information, schematics, maintenance procedures and software for C1,C2,C38 as well for SPP systems. My SPP1600XA, which I used e.g. to heat my cellar stopped operation due to breaking the voltage limit using psu_util. @Camiel: would you like to swap one of your C1 for an X or S-Class? My S-Class is using 48 PA-Risc processors. Andreas > Am 07.11.2016 um 14:50 schrieb steve wallach : > > all correct > > actually the story goes as follows > > .he had his sabattical year coming. however, he would still go into his office to use the convex. > > .so i offered him a FREE return C1 (returned after an upgrade to a C2). he would have to pay for the maintenance and pay for the electrical system needed in his basement. > > .prof jameson is brilliant and people all over the world would come to visit him. during his sabattical they would come to his house and he delighted in showing them his OWN SUPERCOMPUTER in his basement. also after his sabbtaical finished. > > .we sold several systems based on his use of the convex. > > .when he presented papers, he always said, ?i ran these simulations on my own convex supercomputer in my basement?. we got an enormous amount of press and good will. > > > > --- > + Ex-Convex Mailing List, list at ex-convex.org, http://www.ex-convex.org/ > + To unsubscribe, send an email to leave-ex-convex at ex-convex.org > + To subscribe, send an email to join-ex-convex at ex-convex.org From emu at e-bbes.com Mon Nov 7 08:24:05 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 07:24:05 -0700 Subject: TEAC-55Fxxx Message-ID: Anybody has a spare to sell, give away, trade? Thanks From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 7 08:18:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 15:18:48 +0100 Subject: Analogue monitor board repair In-Reply-To: Message-ID: Hi folks, Replying to myself here since I've had a bit of a breakthrough but not in the way I'd have liked. A fellow collector who also got one of these machines at the same time opened his up and there was an extra little bridgeboard piggybacked off some resistors next to the teletext display chip that goes to a 7-pin socket on the rear of the case. The board only has a small cap and a 74LS244 buffer chip on it so I traced it all out and built my own to produce composite RGB + sync which I plugged into an old Microvitec CUB monitor, the workhorse of the BBC Micro. This is the picture I got: http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenOutput.jpg Funnily enough that's EXACTLY what I get on the little B&W display, the green background explains why I thought the brightness/contrast wasn't correct, and it's scrolling in the same way. This means of course that the analogue board is fine and it's the INPUT to this display chip that isn't correct, I know the chip itself is OK because I have a Tandata TD2500 teletext terminal that uses the same device and it works in that. I might have to admit defeat on this one, documentation on this system is non-existent. I've dumped the ROMs so I know they're OK and I can get the datasheet for the 8085a CPU to check clock/address/data lines etc, RAM is all 4116-2 so one of them could be bad as well. But there my knowledge ends. Cheers! On 31/10/2016 22:29, "tony duell" wrote: > >> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the >> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what > > OK... The TDA1180 is the horizontal oscillator, etc, IC. It's well-known. > > Start by getting its data sheet. Indentify the horizontal oscillator > components > connected to pins 12, 13, 14, 15 of that IC. Typically you will find a pot > that controls the DC voltage on pin 15 (slider of pot to pin 15 through a > resistor). That sets the free-running horizontal frequency That's the pot I replaced, it goes through a 22ohm resistor. > Now try adjusting it. If you can get the oscillator to run both too fast > and too slow (lines sloping both ways) that that part is most likely fine > and the fault is in the sync circuit. If not, then the oscillator components > have problems. Yep, lines sloping both ways is exactly what happens. Perhaps bizarrely this also seems to affect the contrast. > Are you getting a sync pulse at pin 8 of the IC? If not, trace back from > there to the connector to the logic board and if necessary to the video > IC. Pin 8 goes right back to a 74LS04 up near the RAM/ROM section of the motherboard. I'm going to see if it's possible to assemble the whole thing outside of the big plastic housing and still hold the screen as securely as possible, it's a complete pain to get the screen in its swivel top and connect up everything without risk of breakage. > Are you getting a flyback pulse at pin 6? The horizontal control circuit is > basically a phase-locked loop comparing the incoming sync pulses with > flyback signal from the horizontal output stage. Watch this space :) -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? ------ End of Forwarded Message From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 09:37:30 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:37:30 -0500 Subject: TEAC-55Fxxx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 9:24 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Anybody has a spare to sell, give away, trade? > > Thanks > You might be able to get away with more than just TEAC for the Sage II. Here is a pic of a system with a replaced drive http://vintagecomputer.net/sage/SageII/Sage-II_front-d.jpg Do you recognize the "other" drive than yours? 96tpi is harder to find than more common drives. Bill From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 7 10:44:24 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:44:24 -0800 Subject: DEC DELQA - seems not to work. Anyone got a spare? [SOLVED] In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 6:13 PM, Joseph Zatarski wrote: > >On 2014-10-26 3:07 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > >>* On 21/10/14 7:38 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > *>>>* > From: Toby Thain > *>>>>>>* > Looking to see what the internal self-test returns as an > error > *>>>* code > *>>>* > (that can be done with console ODT, it doesn't need a > program) is > *>>>* > probably the first step in diagnosing. > *>>>*... > *>>* OK, after powerup, the bits of the VAR register (e/w/p 2000192c) are > *>>* D800, i.e. the test result bits VAR12:10 are 1,1,0 - meaning RAM test > *>>* failed. > *> > >Hi all, > > > >As an update to this project, I can report that the DELQA has been > >repaired with four new static RAM chips, and now the MicroVAX II's > >network is fully working (including netboot). > > > >Credit due to Joe Zatarski (joe_z) who did a beautiful job of > >desoldering and putting sockets in for the four RAM chips. > > > >--Toby > > Glad to have helped :) > > Joe Zatarski > > >>>>* I must be doing something wrong running the test manually, though - > *>>>>>>>* d/w/p 2000192c 2000 > *>>>>* Just leaves 2000 in the VAR register, permanently. > *>>>>* --Toby > *>>>>>>>>>>* Noel > *>>>>>>> > I love reading stories of component-level repair. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 7 10:46:45 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:46:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <21b40c9e-cf3e-cd2d-0844-07b46a50f70c@bitsavers.org> References: <21b40c9e-cf3e-cd2d-0844-07b46a50f70c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > Supercomputer collectors are like the mainframe collectors, they like to keep a low profile other than the > Cray-Cyber folks in Munich. Those guys are cool, and I appreciate them putting notes online. My Crays had their hard disks removed and destroyed (came from high side / govt contractor / nuclear engineering for war machines.) When it came to trying to get info to re-install the OS I found that every collector I could find with a working machine -- it came to them with the OS installed and everything :-) I have Unicos for the J90 series but I'm not 100% sure the release and stuff I have is compatible with my machine. It kernel panics on install boot -- could be a config thing or it could be the binaries I have are for some other version / iteration / etc. I worked around a number of Cray employees as well and they had no idea. > I don't know what they do for software. We tried getting it with the last Cray we got, and got nowhere getting it released. Yep, I hit the same thing. Cray was willing to write me permission to use though -- they faxed me document saying I was okay to run my system and such but they obviously weren't going to fork over the OS. At this point Cray had already switched hands and was out of the custom computer business and in the PC cluster business I think. I wouldn't be surprised if Unicos like IRIX has licensed components in it and they can't distribute it even with it being old. I was just in California / Silicon Valley for work and got to hang with some ex-SGI people that are friends of friend and I was asking them what happened to all the SGI documentation and stuff on the proprietary graphics systems and such -- any chance of it ever being cleared for release / does it still exist / etc. I think one of the guys might of mentioned you! But he talked as if much of that documentation was gone. -- Ethan O'Toole From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 7 10:57:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 08:57:43 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <21b40c9e-cf3e-cd2d-0844-07b46a50f70c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <99793e1e-0b32-04d9-3a1b-1bb9ccf3f339@bitsavers.org> On 11/7/16 8:46 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > I think one of the guys might of > mentioned you! But he talked as if much of that documentation was gone. > Yup, all dumpstered by the company formerly known as Rackable What survives is in the hands of collectors. They worked hard to save what was still left at the end. SGI was just as brutal to Cray. Scorched earth to their archives a decade before. From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 7 10:59:19 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:59:19 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power. The mid-sized ones had the > motor-generator set built into the back of the machine. The 415 Hz > (regulated) power was transformed to low voltage and run through an > inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated. They had a circuit > they called an "electronic capacitor" that pulled extra current through the > inductor during the voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current > during the voltage valleys. This reduced the ripple current on the capacitor > banks. > The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, produced by a > "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that converted utility 3-phase power > to DC, then inverted it with an SCR inverter. This made the DC power > supplies in the machine quite small. Since they ran off regulated 2500 Hz > power, they dropped only a very small voltage across the series-pass > transistor. > Jon Am I getting this right? So they take AC turn it to DC then turn it back to high frequency AC then turn it back to DC to drop the need for larger capacitors to keep the DC clean? Pretty wild. Anyone run any of this stuff at home / light commercial clubhouses? -- Ethan O'Toole From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 7 11:09:21 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 12:09:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <99793e1e-0b32-04d9-3a1b-1bb9ccf3f339@bitsavers.org> References: <21b40c9e-cf3e-cd2d-0844-07b46a50f70c@bitsavers.org> <99793e1e-0b32-04d9-3a1b-1bb9ccf3f339@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > Yup, all dumpstered by the company formerly known as Rackable > > What survives is in the hands of collectors. They worked hard to save what > was still left at the end. > > SGI was just as brutal to Cray. Scorched earth to their archives a decade before. > Ugh. To be fair, I even know CEOs today of companies making tech products that don't really like to look at the past or live in it -- they see themselves as focused on the future. Still a shame they couldn't of at least shelved documentation and source. At the time of it's disposal it probably didn't seem relevant, and perhaps it isn't so much outside of those of us with nostalgia for the systems we grew up around or ones we dreamed of messing with. Also, when I was younger (I didn't really participate in any of this hands on) I used to hang out in some IRC channels and remember seeing source code tarballs get passed around to things like SunOS, Solaris and IRIX. I guess they were leaked from companies with partner source code license contracts or insecure systems. Mostly used either as trophies or people looking for more security vulnerabilities (independent unauthorized source code audit I guess you would call it.) Right as it would happen you would see a bunch of new CERT advisories from some random group and it was like, "Yep, they're digging through that source tarball floating around." Those source tarballs are likely to still be out there somewhere. From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Mon Nov 7 11:56:55 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 09:56:55 -0800 Subject: Mac SE NVRAM battery removal In-Reply-To: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> References: <581FB387.2070604@gmail.com> Message-ID: There's nothing stored in the Parameter RAM that won't be restored to a default state by the OS on boot. Macs generally won't boot without a PRAM battery though, so if you're storing your systems without one, you'll need to replace the battery before use. You might want to run some wire for a socket out of the case if you're going to do that regularly, since it can be a pain to get in there on many models?and not just on compact Macs, either, though they're obviously tough. -- Chris Sent from my iPad > On Nov 6, 2016, at 2:49 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > > So I'm working my way (more slowly than I probably should be) through my systems, ditching ancient on-board batteries before they leak... > > In the case of the Mac SE's, are there any critical settings which I should make a note of before removing the on-board battery? Should I expect any issues trying to run the machines without? (I'm not inclined to replace batteries unless I have to, just so I don't have to worry about replacement again in x years time) > > cheers > > Jules > From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Nov 7 11:22:22 2016 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 17:22:22 +0000 Subject: Looking for terminals again Message-ID: The interest in video terminals has been awoken again, and I am again searching for one. I like the look/size of the VT220s, very nice and compact! Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? I?m probably somewhat interested! -brian From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 7 12:25:16 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 12:25:16 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> On 11/07/2016 10:59 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> All 370's ran off 415 Hz 3-phase power. The mid-sized >> ones had the motor-generator set built into the back of >> the machine. The 415 Hz (regulated) power was >> transformed to low voltage and run through an >> inductor-input filter and then series pass regulated. >> They had a circuit they called an "electronic capacitor" >> that pulled extra current through the inductor during the >> voltage peaks, so the inductor carried enough current >> during the voltage valleys. This reduced the ripple >> current on the capacitor banks. >> The 360s ran off single-phase 120 V 2500 Hz power, >> produced by a "converter-inverter" unit in the back, that >> converted utility 3-phase power to DC, then inverted it >> with an SCR inverter. This made the DC power supplies in >> the machine quite small. Since they ran off regulated >> 2500 Hz power, they dropped only a very small voltage >> across the series-pass transistor. >> Jon > > Am I getting this right? > > So they take AC turn it to DC then turn it back to high > frequency AC then turn it back to DC to drop the need for > larger capacitors to keep the DC clean? > > Pretty wild. > Yes, that's how the 360's (at least mid-range) were set up. You could tell, the converter-inverter was INSANELY loud, at a massively piercing audio frequency. The key was that this one unit gave regulated AC power to all critical power supplies in the system, so they could skimp on regulation on the individual power supplies. It actually didn't work so well, if you had crummy power, which we had a bad case on at Washington University in the 70's - 80's. They had 4160 V cables buried all over campus, fed from one transformer at the power plant. These cables were in concrete "conduits" which had water leaks. So the wires, with 4160 V on them, were essentially sitting in muddy water all the time, and corona discharges broke down the insulation. We had one of these cables fail every couple months, with a massive power dip for a few seconds before the fuses cleared. But, for weeks before the big POP, they would be arcing and flashing, which drove the 360 crazy. A small dip would cause things like control store parity errors, main store parity errors or just system power-on resets. They got a Dranetz analyzer, and could correlate more than half the machine crashes with a power glitch. They got some big Digital Power Systems ultra-isolation transformers, but I really don't think they helped much, as the problem was momentary dips. (Later, shielded cables came in, these have a layer of copper mesh over the main insulation, so there is no AC field present on the outside of the cable. As far as I know, the original shielded cables are still in there, once they got all the old unshielded stuff out, these problems just stopped happening.) > Anyone run any of this stuff at home / light commercial > clubhouses? > We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house. That had the 17 KVA motor generator set in the back (WAY more than a 145 needed, but they apparently used one MG set for a range of machines). But, he only had 60 A 240V single-phase service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no load. We built a static phase converter, but the imaginary current was over 60 A. Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read the nameplate we would have known it was a fool's errand. The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, per 3-PHASE LINE, so running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line current would HAVE to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it? OF course! We should have just scrapped the original 415 Hz power supplies and got our hands on a bank of 5V supplies and adapted them. The thing ran off +1.2 and -3 V supplies at 390 A, although I think that was for the max configuration, this one had minimal internal memory, so should have been less. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 7 12:41:30 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 10:41:30 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4d9c12e2-fcc3-7eca-06b8-d6bf40866beb@bitsavers.org> I wonder if LCM has ever measured the power draw of each of their big machines? On 11/7/16 10:25 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house. That had the 17 KVA motor generator set in the back (WAY more than > a 145 needed, but they apparently used one MG set for a range of machines). But, he only had 60 A 240V single-phase > service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no load. We built a static phase converter, but the imaginary > current was over 60 A. Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read the nameplate we would have known it was a fool's errand. > The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, per 3-PHASE LINE, so running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line current > would HAVE to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it? OF course! > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 13:03:37 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:03:37 +0000 Subject: Sage II In-Reply-To: References: <619567b4-495a-1af1-20f4-d9382cfd5636@e-bbes.com> <9b736457-fbd7-6d7d-d04c-ebfb8f819a9f@e-bbes.com> <5c3069a0-134c-97c5-6555-a927bede42b0@e-bbes.com> <8ca44d9a-9614-c7cd-3984-448b3c3ff315@verizon.net> <0500751f-01e4-5888-ce52-b1e750f9c5b6@e-bbes.com> <5e545287-72be-507e-b928-f2489d5a5f20@verizon.net> <49a385b4-6a7a-3e77-f6cd-e95c2ad00c03@e-bbes.com> <2848c998-a443-95a0-a8ba-64ba57b16ba7@e-bbes.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 2:22 PM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Thanks! > It looks like you are right, playing a little with the RAM banks, > finally got me errors, so at least one chip is dead. > Will take few days, until my replacements arrive, but now I > have 384k of RAM ;-) > > Still crashes, but we will see. The original sockets on the board are cheap, > sometimes it feels that the chips are barely hanging in there :( I seem to remember that every chip (even TTL) is socketed in the Sage. In really nasty sockets. Personally, I'd buy a few tubes of turned-pin sockets (machined pin?) and replace the lot. It may take a little time now, but it will save a lot more looking for obscure faults! -tony From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 7 13:04:40 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 14:04:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Yes, that's how the 360's (at least mid-range) were set up. You could tell, > the converter-inverter was INSANELY loud, at a massively piercing audio > frequency. The key was that this one unit gave regulated AC power to all Wild! > We tried to get a 370/145 running at a guy's house. That had the 17 KVA > motor generator set in the back (WAY more than a 145 needed, but they > apparently used one MG set for a range of machines). But, he only had 60 A > 240V single-phase service, and we couldn't even spin up the MG set with no > load. We built a static phase converter, but the imaginary current was over > 60 A. Well, NO SURPRISE, if we'd just read the nameplate we would have known > it was a fool's errand. The 3-phase line current on the thing was about 55 A, > per 3-PHASE LINE, so running it off SINGLE-PHASE, the line current would HAVE > to be 1.7 X that much, wouldn't it? OF course! > We should have just scrapped the original 415 Hz power supplies and got our > hands on a bank of 5V supplies and adapted them. The thing ran off +1.2 and > -3 V supplies at 390 A, although I think that was for the max configuration, > this one had minimal internal memory, so should have been less. Ah yea, the laser show geeks IIRC would run full 200A household service just to get 30A 3phase off of rotary converters. A used diesel generator set might be another option, or if you're REALLY lucky getting 3 phase from the utility without paying crazy (probably only going to work if you're next to commercial user that already has 3ph step down already in place.) Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come up with that kind of current assuming switchers would be clean enough. I have a home use LED video screen I assembled/am finishing from Chinese modules that runs on 480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back maybe $300 or less. Could probably adjust them down or get similar units or higher quality stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc) -- Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 13:13:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:13:27 -0800 Subject: TEAC-55Fxxx In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/07/2016 06:24 AM, emanuel stiebler wrote: > Anybody has a spare to sell, give away, trade? I've got a couple of 55Fs (with head-load solenoids) that I'm not using, but I suspect that you're on the wrong side of the pond. I think I may also have a few 96tpi Japanese drives as well, if you're after a match. All have black bezels. --Chuck From ethan at 757.org Mon Nov 7 13:14:07 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 14:14:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <4d9c12e2-fcc3-7eca-06b8-d6bf40866beb@bitsavers.org> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <4d9c12e2-fcc3-7eca-06b8-d6bf40866beb@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > I wonder if LCM has ever measured the power draw of each of their big machines? Do they run them on any sort of commercial PDU system? I'd hope so, not too expensive and they should be able to see real time at least the current draw. -- Ethan O'Toole From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 13:23:58 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 11:23:58 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> On 11/07/2016 11:04 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come up with > that kind of current assuming switchers would be clean enough. I have > a home use LED video screen I assembled/am finishing from Chinese > modules that runs on 480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back > maybe $300 or less. Could probably adjust them down or get similar > units or higher quality stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc) A lot depends on location. If you're out in a rural area and serviced by a Rural Electric Cooperative (REC), it's pretty easy, although there are the initial costs for the cable, distribution box and transformer. Farm equipment such as hay dryers tend to be 440V 3-phase, so it's not something out of the ordinary. Similarly, if you've got space in a commercial/industrial section of town, 3-phase power almost goes along without mention. Office buildings and warehouses tend to have 3-phase service. Of course, this is US practice. If you were, say, in Germany, 3-phase power is pretty standard for residential service--the only concern is the current-carrying capacity. But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. --Chuck From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Nov 7 12:49:09 2016 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 18:49:09 +0000 Subject: Looking for terminals again - oops Message-ID: Whoops, looks like I sent this to the wrong cct*** email, apologies! My interest in video terminals has been awoken again, and I am again searching for one. I like the look/size of the VT220s, very nice and compact! Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? I?m probably somewhat interested! -brian From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Nov 7 14:22:57 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 20:22:57 +0000 Subject: Various Software and Documentation for shipping + donations (round 2, much delayed) In-Reply-To: <046d01d0ee60$6c789fa0$4569dee0$@gmail.com> References: <446D0A3D-E9E8-493A-AA4D-59B25236AAC2@fozztexx.com> <55F5C5A3.5050808@sydex.com> <043d01d0ee58$5deefae0$19ccf0a0$@gmail.com> <20150913200718.GI3303@gmail.com> <046d01d0ee60$6c789fa0$4569dee0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0F363C87-9F2C-4ADB-B7E0-CCA2AE224E48@swri.edu> All, Sometimes my wheels turn slowly. Work, life, etc. intervened since last Sept. but I?m back to this task for a while. I'm trying to help Cindy find homes for some of what's left from her warehouse. I can hold them only temporarily ( :-) ), but if any of this interests you please contact me via Private (not list) email at mtapley at swri.edu. If you do want something, send me your shipping address and exactly what you want. I'll get back to you with estimated shipping costs (USPS media rate where possible) as soon as I can. You send me payment (any method is acceptable; USPS does not recommend cash in the mail) and I will ship when payment arrives. If you want Fed-Ex or something different from USPS media let me know at your first contact and I will price that for you. If you can afford to send slightly more than costs, I'll collect up the surplus for Cindy and get it to her. If more than one person wants the same thing, it goes to the person sending me the earliest time-tagged email. If Al K. wants anything for Bitsavers, he gets priority (even if his is not the first email) up until it leaves my hands. There will be multiple sets of email from me, hopefully at a faster cadence, each with a short list of things, unless/until someone asks me to quit. (I think I tried to send this in July but never saw it come back nor got any answers; if it did go out and this is a re-send, please let me know and accept my apologies for the spam.) Thanks for your attention! More coming soon. - - Mark ??? These are documentation or book only. Orion Blue Book Computer Spring 1998 book only; hardbound Frontier Technologies Super-TCP for Windows book only; softbound, shrink-wrap intact. Novell Netware 5.1 Administration Student manual book only; softbound, highlighter/pen/pencil markings inside. Drum Jansen Using PFS: First Choice Tutorial and Applications book only; softbound Epson Stylus COLOR 760/860 Printer Basics book only; softbound Epson Setup Guide for Stylus COLOR 400 book only; softbound Toshiba CD-ROM Drive Safety Instruction manual (XM-5702B, xx/XM5701B xx/XM-3801B single sheet of paper in english + single half-size sheet in Japanese Jaton VIDEO-67P/VIDEO-67TV Quick start guide Single sheet multi-fold pamphlet Output Technology Corporation OTC 2100 Series Printers Setup and Operation book only; spiral-bound ??? From thebri at gmail.com Mon Nov 7 18:07:07 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:07:07 -0500 Subject: PDP8a CPU fixed! (was Re: DEC DELQA - seems not to work. Anyone got a spare?) Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 11:44 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > I love reading stories of component-level repair. > Assuming my notes and sketchy memory make any sense: One of my PDP 8a CPU boards (the M8315) passed all the self tests I could toggle in, EXCEPT, it would ignore HLT instructions. It'd just blow right through them. That'll get you questioning your sanity real quick. Several hours of squinting at schematics said I'm looking for the STOPL signal - I found three or four places, one of which involved a ROM (at least my notes say there is a ROM involved). Uh oh. Page 3-17 of the microprocessor user manual lists when STOPL is asserted. Basically, front panel or HLT. Page 4-39 has the logic for the front panel, and that was enough to narrow it down to one instance of STOPL in the schematics, in the middle of page H-9. E39 (an 8881 aka 7439) or E33 (a 7402). I swapped those two out, repaired the trace that I busted, and viola! HLT now works. I vaguely remember it was the 8881 at fault. BTW, I'm open to suggestions as to how to even begin debugging an HP 1000 E Series. There seems to be a case holding a power supply in the way of any access to the motherboard. The machine fails to exit the 'counting' self test right after power up. I plan on writing up a better description once it gets cold and snowy out, so don't feel bad if you don't see this plea for help. Cheers! b From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Nov 7 17:32:11 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 00:32:11 +0100 Subject: Looking for 8085a CPU Message-ID: Hi folks, Still working on this STC Executel and it looks like the CPU isn't too good given how hot it gets within a minute or so. The display is the same whether there's a CPU physically present or not. I built this circuit to test it: http://saundby.com/electronics/8085/freerun.shtml Using a 4mhz crystal the address lines are all over the place - I'm using a logic analyser rather than LEDs. Has anyone got a spare they'd like to sell me? I'm struggling to think of something I've got that may have a socketed 8085... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 7 18:54:56 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 16:54:56 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) Message-ID: <9074f96f-b259-ba9c-aba6-b62f3deab390@jwsss.com> Looks like someone put in a high enough bid to hold onto the 11/20 that went today. I guessed an amount around what it went for would be what I'd pay, so don't know if I'd have gotten it or not, but didn't try since that was around the 3500 dollar level. (it sold for $2961). The fun thing is the buyer is also buying vintage clothing and the like according to Epay's useless buyer history it gives out now. There were three other bidders that doubled the price in the last 8 seconds. It was a nice machine, though the seller said it had developed a problem in the memory. thanks jim http://www.ebay.com/itm/222300550527 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 7 19:04:09 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 20:04:09 -0500 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) Message-ID: <13bb3b.4df993df.45527e88@aol.com> now I know what ours is worth! $ed In a message dated 11/7/2016 5:55:19 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwsmail at jwsss.com writes: Looks like someone put in a high enough bid to hold onto the 11/20 that went today. I guessed an amount around what it went for would be what I'd pay, so don't know if I'd have gotten it or not, but didn't try since that was around the 3500 dollar level. (it sold for $2961). The fun thing is the buyer is also buying vintage clothing and the like according to Epay's useless buyer history it gives out now. There were three other bidders that doubled the price in the last 8 seconds. It was a nice machine, though the seller said it had developed a problem in the memory. thanks jim http://www.ebay.com/itm/222300550527 From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 7 19:06:43 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:06:43 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) In-Reply-To: <13bb3b.4df993df.45527e88@aol.com> References: <13bb3b.4df993df.45527e88@aol.com> Message-ID: <20161108010643.GA14969@lonesome.com> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 08:04:09PM -0500, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > now I know what ours is worth! Clearly not. But I'll be happy to take it off your hands for a hundred bucks or so. Contact me privately. (oh it's a JOKE folks :-) ) mcl From gtoal at gtoal.com Mon Nov 7 19:42:40 2016 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:42:40 -0600 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) In-Reply-To: <9074f96f-b259-ba9c-aba6-b62f3deab390@jwsss.com> References: <9074f96f-b259-ba9c-aba6-b62f3deab390@jwsss.com> Message-ID: the old clothes makes it sound like a prop buyer for movies... on the other hand they'd probably buy a dead one for less... On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 6:54 PM, jim stephens wrote: > Looks like someone put in a high enough bid to hold onto the 11/20 that > went today. I guessed an amount around what it went for would be what I'd > pay, so don't know if I'd have gotten it or not, but didn't try since that > was around the 3500 dollar level. (it sold for $2961). > > The fun thing is the buyer is also buying vintage clothing and the like > according to Epay's useless buyer history it gives out now. > > There were three other bidders that doubled the price in the last 8 > seconds. > > It was a nice machine, though the seller said it had developed a problem > in the memory. > > thanks > jim > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/222300550527 > From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 7 19:56:08 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 19:56:08 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <582130B8.8010203@pico-systems.com> On 11/07/2016 01:04 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: > > > Hmmm it shouldn't be that hard in this day and age to come > up with that kind of current assuming switchers would be > clean enough. I have a home use LED video screen I > assembled/am finishing from Chinese modules that runs on > 480 amps @ 5vdc, power supplies set me back maybe $300 or > less. Could probably adjust them down or get similar units > or higher quality stuff from surplus (Pioneer Magnetics, etc) Switching supplies can be as clean as you need them to be, just a matter of proper filtering. Jon From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 7 19:59:05 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:59:05 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything > but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop, among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing machining it was how he made his living. He was a very handy person to know :-) mcl From cclist at sydex.com Mon Nov 7 21:52:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 19:52:53 -0800 Subject: Looking for 8085a CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4257cb7e-6cb8-9d7f-c9ca-7fa91e621cf4@sydex.com> On 11/07/2016 03:32 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Still working on this STC Executel and it looks like the CPU isn't > too good given how hot it gets within a minute or so. The display is > the same whether there's a CPU physically present or not. I built > this circuit to test it: > > http://saundby.com/electronics/8085/freerun.shtml > > Using a 4mhz crystal the address lines are all over the place - I'm > using a logic analyser rather than LEDs. > > Has anyone got a spare they'd like to sell me? I'm struggling to > think of something I've got that may have a socketed 8085... Got any old Adaptec SCSI controllers for PC? How about an old XT MFM controller? Wangtek QIC36 tape controller? The 8085s are all over the place. If you're buying NOS, I'd probably go for the 80C85. Tundra made a pretty good one. --Chuck From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 7 22:31:40 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 22:31:40 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything >> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. > Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. > > A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop, > among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing > machining it was how he made his living. He was a very handy person > to know :-) > > mcl > I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. Jon From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 7 19:57:29 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2016 20:57:29 -0500 Subject: Looking for 8085a CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <881b840c-a7c0-7877-11da-eca6c2845462@verizon.net> If you were on this side of the pond it would be easy. The 8085A is a really common part with many vendors and all work. Also if a different one gets hot (they nominally run warm not hot to the touch) check to see if there is a bus or address driver shorted or stuck in the wrong direction. Make sure the 8085A is the only warm part. Allison On 11/07/2016 06:32 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Still working on this STC Executel and it looks like the CPU isn't too good > given how hot it gets within a minute or so. The display is the same whether > there's a CPU physically present or not. I built this circuit to test it: > > http://saundby.com/electronics/8085/freerun.shtml > > Using a 4mhz crystal the address lines are all over the place - I'm using a > logic analyser rather than LEDs. > > Has anyone got a spare they'd like to sell me? I'm struggling to think of > something I've got that may have a socketed 8085... > From jason at smbfc.net Tue Nov 8 00:06:31 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2016 22:06:31 -0800 Subject: Wang 2243 drive enclosure Message-ID: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> Are there any Wang people on this list? I came across a Wang 2243, which is an enclosure w/ 3 8-inch floppy drives in it for $75 in the local surplus shop. Is there a demand for something like this whole or is the value in the drives? I've been wanting to mess around with some 8-inch drives, but it seems a crime to break this unit apart. There's also a smaller Wang enclosure with dual 5-inch floppies in it, but I wasn't able to get a model number off it. Also $75 There big to store, and cut into my retro computing budget a bit -- but I'm tempted to grab them.. Is there any potential interest here in these units before I go back for them? --Jason From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 8 02:35:53 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 00:35:53 -0800 Subject: Wang 2243 drive enclosure In-Reply-To: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> References: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <70AB42B4-E37C-4195-81F4-0FFDBABB2CFC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-07, at 10:06 PM, Jason Howe wrote: > Are there any Wang people on this list? > > I came across a Wang 2243, which is an enclosure w/ 3 8-inch floppy drives in it for $75 in the local surplus shop. > > Is there a demand for something like this whole or is the value in the drives? > > I've been wanting to mess around with some 8-inch drives, but it seems a crime to break this unit apart. > > There's also a smaller Wang enclosure with dual 5-inch floppies in it, but I wasn't able to get a model number off it. Also $75 > > There big to store, and cut into my retro computing budget a bit -- but I'm tempted to grab them.. Is there any potential interest here in these units before I go back for them? I'd be interested, if I had the Wang 2200 to go with it. A few years ago I figured a nice collection set / museum display would be an HP 9830, Wang 2200 and IBM 5100 - three 'personal computers' from the early/mid-70s that predate the 'personal computer era'. I have an HP 9830, but Wang 2200s seem to be rare and IBM 5100s are now in the multi-K$ range. Would be good if it found a home with someone who has a 2200. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Tue Nov 8 09:24:40 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:24:40 +0000 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) In-Reply-To: References: <9074f96f-b259-ba9c-aba6-b62f3deab390@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 8 November 2016 at 01:42, Graham Toal wrote: > the old clothes makes it sound like a prop buyer for movies... on the other > hand they'd probably buy a dead one for less... > Maybe the buyer was taking this hobby to the next level: a vintage way of life? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 09:58:26 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 07:58:26 -0800 Subject: PDP 11/20 sold (ebay warning) In-Reply-To: References: <9074f96f-b259-ba9c-aba6-b62f3deab390@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <42dcde9e-a5b4-41db-b15a-31fe3345c688@bitsavers.org> Depending on what the clothing was, maybe they just like the old stuff. I buy good condition vintage shirts because I don't like the quality or fit of the crap they make today. On 11/8/16 7:24 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > Maybe the buyer was taking this hobby to the next level: a vintage way of > life? > From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 8 10:47:49 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 10:47:49 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry >>> Street, anything >>> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. >> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. >> >> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his >> backyard shop, >> among other toys. After he was laid off from his >> aerospace job doing >> machining it was how he made his living. He was a very >> handy person >> to know :-) >> >> mcl >> > I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill > and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized > VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and > dynamic braking. > > Jon > And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. Jon From cube1 at charter.net Tue Nov 8 10:09:22 2016 From: cube1 at charter.net (Jay Jaeger) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:09:22 -0600 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <29d06cb1-bed8-2405-aa7d-16ffc840b302@charter.net> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> <29d06cb1-bed8-2405-aa7d-16ffc840b302@charter.net> Message-ID: <3c3305fc-a11b-8e3c-0ef9-0f3e30d2c33d@charter.net> On 10/17/2016 11:23 AM, Jay Jaeger wrote: > The back label says 8000-10A, which should indeed be a Z80 system with a > hard disk. I have an Altos 1004 disk for the thing (and experience with > its power supply ;) ), but when I bought mine, my seller (not the same > as this one) mis-listed the CPU unit as having the disk controller, > which was not actually present - he used a stock photo to sell multiple > units. (I did receive some compensation for that). The disk controller > on this unit looks to be correct. > > On 10/16/2016 5:16 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> >> 48 min to go at 315 PDT >> >> Bit thing not in listing is an SA-1004 disk. And I'm suspicious it is >> an 8086, but who knows. Certainly has many serials on the back. >> >> Moore-Business-Systems-Altos-ASC-8000-10A-Zilog-Z80-CP-M-Multi-user-Computer >> >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/311713600878 >> > As a follow up, I did end up purchasing the thing, in order to get the prerequisite Altos 8200 system board and hard disk controller to mate with my existing Altos disk. (My disk is the larger sized SA-4008, contrary to the 1004 I cited earlier). It is indeed a 8000-10 system, with a Z80 processor. It is an all-in one unit - the SA-1004 is on the right hand side of the case, under the system board, and the floppy on the left side. Thus quite heavy (shipping weight was apparently 72 lbs). I have not yet disassembled it to check to see if the scrape on the transformer requires further attention, to deal with the filter capacitors, remove the useless SA-1004, etc. So, if anyone needs SA-1004 electronics or other pieces/parts let me know. :) JRJ From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 10:29:47 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:29:47 -0500 Subject: Altos system mislisted on Epay In-Reply-To: <3c3305fc-a11b-8e3c-0ef9-0f3e30d2c33d@charter.net> References: <001401d227e9$6308a5a0$2919f0e0$@xs4all.nl> <65874513-c0e6-808e-e3b5-1164118f0fe6@jwsss.com> <29d06cb1-bed8-2405-aa7d-16ffc840b302@charter.net> <3c3305fc-a11b-8e3c-0ef9-0f3e30d2c33d@charter.net> Message-ID: > > > > As a follow up, I did end up purchasing the thing, in order to get the > prerequisite Altos 8200 system board and hard disk controller to mate > with my existing Altos disk. (My disk is the larger sized SA-4008, > contrary to the 1004 I cited earlier). It is indeed a 8000-10 system, > with a Z80 processor. > > It is an all-in one unit - the SA-1004 is on the right hand side of the > case, under the system board, and the floppy on the left side. Thus > quite heavy (shipping weight was apparently 72 lbs). I have not yet > disassembled it to check to see if the scrape on the transformer > requires further attention, to deal with the filter capacitors, remove > the useless SA-1004, etc. > > So, if anyone needs SA-1004 electronics or other pieces/parts let me > know. :) > > JRJ > Did I send you this link? http://vintagecomputer.net/altos/8000/Altos-8000-pt2_8500_board.pdf I have the 8000 manual, someone had in the past ask me to scan this part of it. b From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 8 11:08:16 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:08:16 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything >>>> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. >>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. >>> >>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop, >>> among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing >>> machining it was how he made his living. He was a very handy person >>> to know :-) >>> >>> mcl >>> >> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. >> >> Jon >> > And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. > I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear. I haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single phase 220v. TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 11:22:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:22:09 -0500 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything >>>>> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. >>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. >>>> >>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop, >>>> among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing >>>> machining it was how he made his living. He was a very handy person >>>> to know :-) >>>> >>>> mcl >>>> >>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. >>> >>> Jon >>> >> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. >> > > I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear. I haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single phase 220v. A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low cost simple ones. I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit over $100, though the price has gone up since. (Westinghouse TECO brand.) VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I have seen. Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires. I haven't tried that (but it matches how my VFD is connected). The other option is a "rotary converter". Basically that's a 3 phase motor connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion. Those can be built (articles on the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; they show models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW. When I was looking into converters, I found VFDs to be the less expensive option. The instant reverse and variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; for powering computers that would not apply. Well, not unless you need 400 Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go that high, not all do. Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if that gets you into the "economy VFD" range. paul From jason at smbfc.net Tue Nov 8 11:30:25 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:30:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang 2243 drive enclosure In-Reply-To: <70AB42B4-E37C-4195-81F4-0FFDBABB2CFC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> <70AB42B4-E37C-4195-81F4-0FFDBABB2CFC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Nov-07, at 10:06 PM, Jason Howe wrote: >> Are there any Wang people on this list? >> >> I came across a Wang 2243, which is an enclosure w/ 3 8-inch floppy drives in it for $75 in the local surplus shop. >> >> Is there a demand for something like this whole or is the value in the drives? >> >> I've been wanting to mess around with some 8-inch drives, but it seems a crime to break this unit apart. >> >> There's also a smaller Wang enclosure with dual 5-inch floppies in it, but I wasn't able to get a model number off it. Also $75 >> >> There big to store, and cut into my retro computing budget a bit -- but I'm tempted to grab them.. Is there any potential interest here in these units before I go back for them? > > > I'd be interested, if I had the Wang 2200 to go with it. Yeah that's kind of where I am -- there don't seem to be too many of them around. I'm trying to reach out to some Wang 2200 people I've found. > > A few years ago I figured a nice collection set / museum display would be an HP 9830, Wang 2200 and IBM 5100 - three 'personal computers' from the early/mid-70s that predate the 'personal computer era'. > I have an HP 9830, but Wang 2200s seem to be rare and IBM 5100s are now in the multi-K$ range. > > Would be good if it found a home with someone who has a 2200. > > --Jason From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 8 11:33:37 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:33:37 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> >> >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>> >>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, anything >>>>>> but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. >>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. >>>>> >>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard shop, >>>>> among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace job doing >>>>> machining it was how he made his living. He was a very handy person >>>>> to know :-) >>>>> >>>>> mcl >>>>> >>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. >>>> >>>> Jon >>>> >>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. >>> >> >> I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear. I haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single phase 220v. > > A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low cost simple ones. I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit over $100, though the price has gone up since. (Westinghouse TECO brand.) VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I have seen. Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires. I haven't tried that (but it matches how my VFD is connected). > > The other option is a "rotary converter". Basically that's a 3 phase motor connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion. Those can be built (articles on the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; they show models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW. When I was looking into converters, I found VFDs to be the less expensive option. The instant reverse and variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; for powering computers that would not apply. Well, not unless you need 400 Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go that high, not all do. > > Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if that gets you into the "economy VFD" range. Yea, that?s what I?m struggling with. The issue is that the control units power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can tell), so I have to power the entire string as one unit. The same goes for the 3340?s - the entire string is powered as a unit. The string of 3340?s need ~5kVA (I don?t know how that translates to HP). I?m still trying to figure out the requirements for the other strings. TTFN - Guy From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Nov 8 11:39:29 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:39:29 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <20161108093929.510bcf3c@asrock.bcwi.net> On Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:33:37 -0800 Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > On Nov 8, 2016, at 9:22 AM, Paul Koning > > wrote: > > > > > >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> wrote: > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson > >>> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, > >>>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. > >>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. > >>>>> > >>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his > >>>>> backyard shop, among other toys. After he was laid off from > >>>>> his aerospace job doing machining it was how he made his > >>>>> living. He was a very handy person to know :-) > >>>>> > >>>>> mcl > >>>>> > >>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and > >>>> Sheldon lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. > >>>> 2-phase in, 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. > >>>> > >>>> Jon > >>>> > >>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, > >>> just to save anybody the trouble of correcting my error. > >> > >> I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM > >> 4331 gear. I haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet > >> but I?m guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the > >> power to all of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string > >> of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 > >> control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to > >> figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller > >> ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at > >> once. The 4331 itself runs off of single phase 220v. > > > > A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one > > of the low cost simple ones. I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) > > that cost only a bit over $100, though the price has gone up > > since. (Westinghouse TECO brand.) VFDs specified for single phase > > input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I have seen. Rumor has > > it that higher power units will also work (possibly with some > > derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed > > them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires. I haven't tried that (but > > it matches how my VFD is connected). > > > > The other option is a "rotary converter". Basically that's a 3 > > phase motor connected to one phase power (with a start and run > > capacitor); it generates the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor > > fashion. Those can be built (articles on the web) or bought from > > machinery supply companies such as Enco; they show models up to 20 > > hp, i.e., about 15 kW. When I was looking into converters, I found > > VFDs to be the less expensive option. The instant reverse and > > variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; for > > powering computers that would not apply. Well, not unless you need > > 400 Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the > > VFD will go that high, not all do. > > > > Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all > > might need to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good > > option, especially if that gets you into the "economy VFD" range. > > Yea, that?s what I?m struggling with. The issue is that the control > units power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can > tell), so I have to power the entire string as one unit. The same > goes for the 3340?s - the entire string is powered as a unit. The > string of 3340?s need ~5kVA (I don?t know how that translates to > HP). I?m still trying to figure out the requirements for the other > strings. Here's a "conversion" website: http://ncalculators.com/electrical/kva-conversion.htm Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rickb at bensene.com Tue Nov 8 11:39:14 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 09:39:14 -0800 Subject: Wang 2243 drive enclosure In-Reply-To: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> References: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4B7@mail.bensene.com> Jason Howe wrote: > Are there any Wang people on this list? >I came across a Wang 2243, which is an enclosure w/ 3 8-inch floppy drives in it for $75 in the local surplus shop. Jim Battle might be interested: http://wang2200.org. He's got a keen interest in Wang Labs 2200 (among some other stuff from Wang Laboratories). Rick Bensene The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 11:55:51 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:55:51 -0500 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > ... >> >> A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low cost simple ones. I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit over $100, though the price has gone up since. (Westinghouse TECO brand.) VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I have seen. Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires. I haven't tried that (but it matches how my VFD is connected). >> ... >> Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if that gets you into the "economy VFD" range. > > Yea, that?s what I?m struggling with. The issue is that the control units power the devices that are connected to them (from what I can tell), so I have to power the entire string as one unit. The same goes for the 3340?s - the entire string is powered as a unit. The string of 3340?s need ~5kVA (I don?t know how that translates to HP). I?m still trying to figure out the requirements for the other strings. The classic formula is 1 hp = 750 W. But there's more to the picture. Motors draw a steady state current based on the power demanded from them, and the hp rating shows the max that they are designed for. But when starting they draw much more current. http://www.vfds.com/blog/vfd-buying-guide has a pile of good information, including more about the use of single phase input. It's clearly an accepted practice, and yes, there's derating involved. Given that your devices are partly motor loads, but certainly not entirely, the startup surge is likely to be modest by motor controller standards. So the key question would be the steady state current vs. what the controller is rated for. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 12:44:37 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 10:44:37 -0800 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals Message-ID: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> another rathole :-( picked up some ST125 mfm drives and a multibus-ish floppy/mfm controller on ebay that came from a AR/Telenex 8600 Autoscope, which is a high-level protocol analyzer because it used an example of a hard disk controller chip I had never seen used before (Signetics 68454) http://www.ebay.com/itm/282236398895 found the manual for the 7000 series on line, and just bought a whole 8600 Turbo http://www.ebay.com/itm/331829268184 so now I'm looking for software and manuals for that. fortunately, it looks like the software is still on the hard disk in the one I bought. From jason at smbfc.net Tue Nov 8 13:00:50 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:00:50 -0800 (PST) Subject: Wang 2243 drive enclosure In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4B7@mail.bensene.com> References: <756ce58b-1819-0c10-1f69-962d189b0303@smbfc.net> <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A4B7@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2016, Rick Bensene wrote: > Jason Howe wrote: > >> Are there any Wang people on this list? >> I came across a Wang 2243, which is an enclosure w/ 3 8-inch floppy drives in it for $75 in the local surplus shop. > > Jim Battle might be interested: http://wang2200.org. > He's got a keen interest in Wang Labs 2200 (among some other stuff from Wang Laboratories). > > Rick Bensene > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > I actually reached out to Jim this morning. Seems he's donated all his 2200 to a museum, but has put me in touch with someone else... We'll see. Kinda wish I had a snowballs chance in hell of finding a 2200 -- I'd just assume pick these up, but that's a lot of cubic footage for a someday project. --Jason From lbickley at bickleywest.com Tue Nov 8 13:04:48 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:04:48 -0800 Subject: AS400 9406-170 available. Message-ID: <20161108110448.0a7ad480@asrock.bcwi.net> Weirdstuff Warehouse has recently acquired a clean AS400 9406-170. It was taken out of service where it was running. The lot includes manuals, terminals, printers, cables, etc. I took a bunch of pictures of the unit which are available via the link below: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0B7RetVDiFv-qS0FtVzdSNmZxV0k?usp=sharing If you are interested in acquiring the lot, contact "Jim" at Weirdstuff. DISCLAIMER: I am posting this as a client of Weirdstuff Warehouse and have no monetary interest in any transaction related to this unit. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:21:28 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:21:28 +0000 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals In-Reply-To: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> References: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: To hijack this thread... While sorting out some more stuff here I found an Atlantic Research protocol analyser. The front cover says it's a model 3600, but some of the PCBs say 4500 on them. Since from what little is on-line the 3600 could be upgraded to a 4500, I wonder if that is what happened to mine. Anyway, it needs a lot of work. It looks like it was dropped from a great height. The plastic case covers are cracked. The chassis is twisted. It will need a new CRT. The cartridge tape drive is in many pieces. But the PCBs all look intact and it seems like an interesting challenge to get t to run again. I don't suppose anyone has the manuals for it.... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 13:31:48 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 11:31:48 -0800 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals In-Reply-To: References: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <86fa011b-3d86-de73-ca31-df958bf6c9ce@bitsavers.org> On 11/8/16 11:21 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > I don't suppose anyone has the manuals for it.... > there are a couple of 4600 technical manuals listed on eBay they probably won't have schematics, though From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:35:27 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:35:27 +0000 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals In-Reply-To: <86fa011b-3d86-de73-ca31-df958bf6c9ce@bitsavers.org> References: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> <86fa011b-3d86-de73-ca31-df958bf6c9ce@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 7:31 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/8/16 11:21 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> I don't suppose anyone has the manuals for it.... >> > > there are a couple of 4600 technical manuals listed on eBay > they probably won't have schematics, though > > > I am pretty sure the 4600 is totally different (it's the 3600 and 4500 that I am looking for). It's probably going to be less hassle to trace the whole lot out. At least I recognise all the ICs apart from one (and that's on one of the boards labelled '4500' so I may not have to worry about it). A project for the distant future, I think... -tony From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 13:51:21 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:51:21 -0000 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <057201d239f9$7b9fdd00$72df9700$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information > > > > On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > > > > > >> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> > >> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, > >>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. > >>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. > >>>> > >>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard > >>>> shop, among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace > >>>> job doing machining it was how he made his living. He was a very > >>>> handy person to know :-) > >>>> > >>>> mcl > >>>> > >>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon > lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, > plus variable speed and dynamic braking. > >>> > >>> Jon > >>> > >> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save > anybody the trouble of correcting my error. > >> > > > > I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear. I > haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing its > going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is really > split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape > drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need > to figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s > unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs > off of single phase 220v. > Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember, the microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz If peripherals are not powered on... Dave > A VFD is a good option and may be quite economical if you get one of the low > cost simple ones. I have one (3 hp model for my lathe) that cost only a bit > over $100, though the price has gone up since. (Westinghouse TECO brand.) > VFDs specified for single phase input tend to stop around 3 hp, as far as I > have seen. Rumor has it that higher power units will also work (possibly with > some derating) even though they claim to be 3 phase input, when you feed > them just one phase on 2 of the 3 wires. I haven't tried that (but it matches > how my VFD is connected). > > The other option is a "rotary converter". Basically that's a 3 phase motor > connected to one phase power (with a start and run capacitor); it generates > the missing phase roughtly in dynamotor fashion. Those can be built (articles > on the web) or bought from machinery supply companies such as Enco; they > show models up to 20 hp, i.e., about 15 kW. When I was looking into > converters, I found VFDs to be the less expensive option. The instant > reverse and variable frequency features were also attractive for lathe use; > for powering computers that would not apply. Well, not unless you need 400 > Hz for your Cyber 6600 -- in which case you'd need to check the VFD will go > that high, not all do. > > Given that you have a number of smaller devices and that not all might need > to run, several smaller converters sounds like a good option, especially if that > gets you into the "economy VFD" range. > > paul > From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 8 14:09:45 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:09:45 -0800 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <057201d239f9$7b9fdd00$72df9700$@gmail.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <057201d239f9$7b9fdd00$72df9700$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <43E764B0-D255-4AA6-A036-6886F1E677A9@shiresoft.com> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul >> Koning >> Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information >> >> >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr >> wrote: >>> >>> >>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson wrote: >>>> >>>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >>>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, >>>>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. >>>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. >>>>>> >>>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his backyard >>>>>> shop, among other toys. After he was laid off from his aerospace >>>>>> job doing machining it was how he made his living. He was a very >>>>>> handy person to know :-) >>>>>> >>>>>> mcl >>>>>> >>>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and Sheldon >> lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, 3-phase out, >> plus variable speed and dynamic braking. >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just to save >> anybody the trouble of correcting my error. >>>> >>> >>> I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 gear. I >> haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing its >> going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is really >> split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape >> drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need >> to figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s >> unlikely that I?d be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs >> off of single phase 220v. >> > > > Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember, the microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz > If peripherals are not powered on? > I?ll cross that bridge when I get to it. ;-) With the exception of the 3340?s (which are directly attached to the 4331), I?m wondering how the microcode would know since the other peripherals are connected through control units which are on the bus-and-tag bus. I would expect that an OS that was gen?d for all of the peripherals might get weird (or not) if it didn?t find the peripherals but I?ll happily deal with that when I get that far. I still have to physically get the system here. I poked around it this past weekend (where is currently stored). I did get all of the docs, tapes, 3340 packs, etc and that filled up my (large) pickup truck?it was a lot of stuff. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:37:56 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:37:56 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm working on getting a TC11 + TU56 running at the LCM+L. We plan to use it as a tool for various archival and restoration efforts. After restoring the power supplies, I have it lashed up to a PDP-11/44 -- I know this is anachronistic, but it's been a workhorse machine with ethernet and SCSI, which makes it very flexible. So far, so good. I have RT-11 running and it can read and write tapes, although the left TU56 transport seems to be a bit marginal. I am running into a couple of issues, and I'm curious if anyone else out there has experience here and might be able to shed some light before I spend a lot of time on it: 1) In bringing the TC11 up, I've been attempting to run the TC11 diagnostics, with mixed success. ZTCB runs, but reports an error with the ENDZ status bit not being set properly. So far as I can tell, ENDZ *is* being set on normal operations, but I haven't exhaustively debugged the controller yet. The other four diagnostics (ZTCA, ZTCC, ZTCD, and ZTCE) do nothing when run -- nothing is printed and there is no response. If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/44, I see the same behavior. If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/20, then I get the printout described in the documentation and listings. (See bitsavers -- http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/xxdp/diag_listings/TC11/). I haven't yet dug in to see what accounts for the difference -- any ideas? 2) I'm looking for means to format DECtapes on the TC11. I have a few marginal tapes and I'd like to see if reformatting them brings them back to life. The maintenance manual only indicates "a special program supplied with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found this: http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac which I've assembled and run on RT-11 and it goes through the motions of writing out the timing and mark tracks, but when it goes through the second pass to write out the block numbers it fails immediately, with either status 001207 (indicating a "Data Missed" error) or 020033 (Mark Track Error). I haven't yet hooked up a scope to see if the T&M tracks are *actually* being written, but given my experience with the diagnostics in (1) above, I'm not averse to thinking there may be more than meets the eye with this issue. So in a nutshell: Anyone used a TC11 on a later PDP-11 (like the 11/44)? Anyone have any thoughts on the diagnostics and formatter issues? Thanks as always, Josh From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 14:42:27 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 12:42:27 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/8/16 12:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I've assembled and run on RT-11 and it goes through the motions of > writing out the timing and mark tracks, but when it goes through the second > pass to write out the block numbers it fails immediately Did you set the switch on the controller front panel to enable the clock track writing? From ethan at 757.org Tue Nov 8 14:45:05 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:45:05 -0500 (EST) Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 > gear. I haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m > guessing its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all > of the gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, > 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 > printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it?s best to > have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be > running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of > single phase 220v. I keep thinking about moving my J90 series box from Norfolk storage up to Northern Virginia -- I've been tempted to ping some of the lower tier data centers to see if they have space that can't be filled due to changes in technology. Maybe I could beg to get a low rent on some space to store the system and have the three 220v connections to fire it up once in a while and try to get the OS installed again. I have no idea if it could happen. The facility I work in probably wouldn't do it but it's a bit more modern. Some of the older ones can't use all of the space because the density of hardware climbed so much that there isn't enough power/cooling to match. -- Ethan O'Toole From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 14:51:24 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 20:51:24 -0000 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <43E764B0-D255-4AA6-A036-6886F1E677A9@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <057201d239f9$7b9fdd00$72df9700$@gmail.com> <43E764B0-D255-4AA6-A036-6886F1E677A9@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <05ab01d23a01$de670f00$9b352d00$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor Jr > Sent: 08 November 2016 20:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information > > > > On Nov 8, 2016, at 11:51 AM, Dave Wade > wrote: > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > >> Koning > >> Sent: 08 November 2016 17:22 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: Supercomputers, fishing for information > >> > >> > >>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 12:08 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> > >>>> On Nov 8, 2016, at 8:47 AM, Jon Elson > wrote: > >>>> > >>>> On 11/07/2016 10:31 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >>>>> On 11/07/2016 07:59 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > >>>>>> On Mon, Nov 07, 2016 at 11:23:58AM -0800, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >>>>>>> But if you're a suburban resident living on Mulberry Street, > >>>>>>> anything but single-phase is pretty much out of the question. > >>>>>> Oh, you can get it -- but be prepared for a large hassle. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> A former neighbor had a 440V 3-phase Italian lathe in his > >>>>>> backyard shop, among other toys. After he was laid off from his > >>>>>> aerospace job doing machining it was how he made his living. He > >>>>>> was a very handy person to know :-) > >>>>>> > >>>>>> mcl > >>>>>> > >>>>> I have two 3-phase machines in my shop (Bridgeport mill and > >>>>> Sheldon > >> lathe) and run them each off a properly-sized VFD. 2-phase in, > >> 3-phase out, plus variable speed and dynamic braking. > >>>>> > >>>>> Jon > >>>>> > >>>> And, of course, that is really SINGLE-PHASE power on 2 wires, just > >>>> to save > >> anybody the trouble of correcting my error. > >>>> > >>> > >>> I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the IBM 4331 > >>> gear. I > >> haven?t quite added up the power requirements yet but I?m guessing > >> its going to be in the 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the > >> gear is really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, 3803 > >> control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control uint + 1403 > >> printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to figure out if it?s best > >> to have one big converter or 3 smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d > >> be running all of the peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single > phase 220v. > >> > > > > > > Not sure how familiar with the 4331 you are, but from what I remember, > > the microcode checks devices at poweron and may get itself in a tizz > > If peripherals are not powered on? > > > I?ll cross that bridge when I get to it. ;-) With the exception of the 3340?s > (which are directly attached to the 4331), I?m wondering how the microcode > would know since the other peripherals are connected through control units > which are on the bus-and-tag bus. I would expect that an OS that was gen?d > for all of the peripherals might get weird (or not) if it didn?t find the > peripherals but I?ll happily deal with that when I get that far. Having checked out the operators guide here:- http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/IBM/Mainframe/Hardware/System/GA33-1525-1_4331ProcessorOperatingProceduresProblemDeterminationGuide.pdf it looks like the 4331 does not have a full IO config, but later models like the 4381 have a definition of all the attached devices in the microcode so they can check everything is working before you IPL the machine. The physical planning manual for 43xx machines is in the above folder so you can check the power needs of each device.. > > I still have to physically get the system here. I poked around it this past > weekend (where is currently stored). I did get all of the docs, tapes, 3340 > packs, etc and that filled up my (large) pickup truck?it was a lot of stuff. Take care with the Microcode disks. The CPU and many controllers > > TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 8 14:54:05 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 15:54:05 -0500 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <21C9F614-25A4-4A44-9E5E-37A9A393BC32@comcast.net> > On Nov 8, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Hi all -- > > ... > 2) I'm looking for means to format DECtapes on the TC11. I have a few > marginal tapes and I'd like to see if reformatting them brings them back to > life. The maintenance manual only indicates "a special program supplied > with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found > this: > http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac > which I've assembled and run on RT-11 and it goes through the motions of > writing out the timing and mark tracks, but when it goes through the second > pass to write out the block numbers it fails immediately, with either > status 001207 (indicating a "Data Missed" error) or 020033 (Mark Track > Error). I haven't yet hooked up a scope to see if the T&M tracks are > *actually* being written, but given my experience with the diagnostics in > (1) above, I'm not averse to thinking there may be more than meets the eye > with this issue. > > So in a nutshell: Anyone used a TC11 on a later PDP-11 (like the 11/44)? > Anyone have any thoughts on the diagnostics and formatter issues? In college I used them on 11/20 and 11/45 processors with no troubles. And I think at DEC we had them on an 11/70. In any case, there's no reason to expect trouble based on the CPU type. The standard DEC supplied formatting program was originally supplied as a paper tape diagnostic. Way back in 1974 I rewrote it slightly so it would do the whole job in one pass, without asking you to reset switches, and it would also write proper empty directories (DOS style). But the standard program should work fine, and the one you mentioned appears similar. It's sufficient to have both the WRTM and WALL enable switches set for the whole operation. The official approach is to set WRTM (only) during the first pass, WALL (only) during the second, and no switches after that. But having unnecessary switches set to enable is harmless. If you had a switch set wrong you'd get an invalid operation error. You're seeing some different code, which suggests either the mark or timing tracks weren't written properly, or that there's some issue with the read circuitry. Yes, I would say it's time to hook up the scope and start tracing some signals. If you have a tape believed to be good that you're willing to erase, you might try reformatting that one. That would help rule out issues caused by bad media. While it is very rare for DECtape media to fail to the point that formatting doesn't work, it *is* possible. paul From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 15:24:16 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 13:24:16 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <21C9F614-25A4-4A44-9E5E-37A9A393BC32@comcast.net> References: <21C9F614-25A4-4A44-9E5E-37A9A393BC32@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Nov 8, 2016, at 3:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > Hi all -- > > > > ... > > 2) I'm looking for means to format DECtapes on the TC11. I have a few > > marginal tapes and I'd like to see if reformatting them brings them back > to > > life. The maintenance manual only indicates "a special program supplied > > with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found > > this: > > http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac > > which I've assembled and run on RT-11 and it goes through the motions of > > writing out the timing and mark tracks, but when it goes through the > second > > pass to write out the block numbers it fails immediately, with either > > status 001207 (indicating a "Data Missed" error) or 020033 (Mark Track > > Error). I haven't yet hooked up a scope to see if the T&M tracks are > > *actually* being written, but given my experience with the diagnostics in > > (1) above, I'm not averse to thinking there may be more than meets the > eye > > with this issue. > > > > So in a nutshell: Anyone used a TC11 on a later PDP-11 (like the 11/44)? > > Anyone have any thoughts on the diagnostics and formatter issues? > > In college I used them on 11/20 and 11/45 processors with no troubles. > And I think at DEC we had them on an 11/70. In any case, there's no reason > to expect trouble based on the CPU type. > Beyond the XXDP diags not running properly ;). Some further experimentation reveals that if I set the system memory to 64KW or less, the ZTCA, etc. diagnostics run as expected. Forcing the XXDP disk to boot the SM (vs. the XM) monitor makes things work even on a machine with > 64KW. So that looks to be solved, fingers crossed. > > The standard DEC supplied formatting program was originally supplied as a > paper tape diagnostic. Way back in 1974 I rewrote it slightly so it would > do the whole job in one pass, without asking you to reset switches, and it > would also write proper empty directories (DOS style). But the standard > program should work fine, and the one you mentioned appears similar. > > It's sufficient to have both the WRTM and WALL enable switches set for the > whole operation. The official approach is to set WRTM (only) during the > first pass, WALL (only) during the second, and no switches after that. But > having unnecessary switches set to enable is harmless. > Good to know, thanks! > > If you had a switch set wrong you'd get an invalid operation error. > You're seeing some different code, which suggests either the mark or timing > tracks weren't written properly, or that there's some issue with the read > circuitry. Yes, I would say it's time to hook up the scope and start > tracing some signals. > Yep. Hopefully with the newfound ability to run the real diagnostics, this will be a bit easier. I'm guessing the read circuits are OK (since I am able to use pre-formatted tapes without issue). > > If you have a tape believed to be good that you're willing to erase, you > might try reformatting that one. That would help rule out issues caused by > bad media. While it is very rare for DECtape media to fail to the point > that formatting doesn't work, it *is* possible. > The tape I'm trying to format had a handful of bad blocks, none near either end of the tape (where the error in formatting occurs). So I think the media can be eliminated from the set of possible problems here. Thanks again, Josh > > paul > > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 8 15:43:03 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 16:43:03 -0500 (EST) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions Message-ID: <20161108214303.939D118C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/44, I see the same behavior. > If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/20, then I get the printout > described in the documentation and listings. ... I haven't yet dug in > to see what accounts for the difference -- any ideas? The fact that the simulator produces identical results to the real hardware would argue that it's not a bug in that particular hardware. So it must be some real difference between the two. There are subtle differences between the 11/20, and other 11's - e.g. on the /20 SWAB does't clear the V bit - maybe it's one of them? It might be worth trying setting the CPU type to other values, and see if it works on any other machine type. > 2) I'm looking for means to format DECtapes on the TC11. ... The > maintenance manual only indicates "a special program supplied with the > TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. The UNIX V6 distro includes a standalone program, tcf.s, to format DECtapes. I don't know if you have a running V6 system (real or emulated) to assemble it one; if you want me to assemble it and provide it as binary (in a variety of formats, e.g. .LDA format), let me know. Noel From holm at freibergnet.de Tue Nov 8 12:28:31 2016 From: holm at freibergnet.de (Holm Tiffe) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:28:31 +0100 Subject: MACRO11 In-Reply-To: References: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <20161108182831.GA39166@beast.freibergnet.de> Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-11-07 8:34 AM, Holm Tiffe wrote: > > J?rg Hoppe wrote: > > > >> Hi, > >> > >> my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on > >> https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . > >> > >> Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. > >> > >> Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex > >> notation instead of octal. > >> I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern > >> logic analyzer. > >> > >> Joerg > > > > Thanks. > > > > Could you possible change all the occurences of stricmp() wich is a > > mikeysoft-only thing, to the more standard strcasecmp()? > > You could do a pull request on github, or if you don't have time, I could. > > --Toby > Yes, please do it. Regards, Holm -- Technik Service u. Handel Tiffe, www.tsht.de, Holm Tiffe, Freiberger Stra?e 42, 09600 Obersch?na, USt-Id: DE253710583 info at tsht.de Fax +49 3731 74200 Tel +49 3731 74222 Mobil: 0172 8790 741 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 8 17:46:57 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 23:46:57 +0000 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals In-Reply-To: References: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> <86fa011b-3d86-de73-ca31-df958bf6c9ce@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <582263F1.2050209@ntlworld.com> On 08/11/16 19:35, Tony Duell wrote: > I am pretty sure the 4600 is totally different (it's the 3600 and 4500 > that I am looking for). It's probably going to be less hassle to trace > the whole lot out. At least I recognise all the ICs apart from one > (and that's on one of the boards labelled '4500' so I may not have > to worry about it). > > A project for the distant future, I think... > > I have manuals for the ARC Interview 7000 and the Interview 8000, but I suspect that they are sufficiently different as to be of no use to you. I do think they are scanned though, so if you think they might be useful, please shout. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 18:44:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 16:44:35 -0800 Subject: ISO Telenex/Atlantic Research protocol analyzer tech manuals In-Reply-To: <582263F1.2050209@ntlworld.com> References: <725fda92-f18b-eb9e-af4b-bdf4c2d57703@bitsavers.org> <86fa011b-3d86-de73-ca31-df958bf6c9ce@bitsavers.org> <582263F1.2050209@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <719369c4-9061-74c1-1426-4054a83fd493@bitsavers.org> On 11/8/16 3:46 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > > I have manuals for the ARC Interview 7000 and the Interview 8000, but I suspect that they are sufficiently different > as to be of no use to you. I do think they are scanned though, so if you think they might be useful, please shout. > It would be nice to add them to the archive. From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 8 20:18:20 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 20:18:20 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5822876C.3040106@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2016 11:08 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > I?m looking to have to do something to get 3-phase for the > IBM 4331 gear. I haven?t quite added up the power > requirements yet but I?m guessing its going to be in the > 10-15kVA range. Since the power to all of the gear is > really split between 3 loads (string of 4 3340 drives, > 3803 control unit + 2 3420 tape drives and 2821 control > uint + 1403 printer + 2540 card reader/punch) I need to > figure out if it?s best to have one big converter or 3 > smaller ones. It?s unlikely that I?d be running all of the > peripherals at once. The 4331 itself runs off of single > phase 220v. TTFN - Guy This is tricky stuff. Motor VFDs produce 400 V square waves of varying duty cycle, so unless you built a very good filter, you couldn't feed that to a a lot of these devices. Possibly you could rewire all that stuff to run the electronics off single-phase power, and use VFDs for the 3-phase motors. I know the tape drive vacuum blowers and 1403 printer had 3-phase motors in them. Likely the 3340's do, too. I'm guessing some of those control units may have run off single-phase, with the supplies balanced across different phases. That was fairly common for stuff that didn't draw massive amounts of power. Sounds like QUITE a project! Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 8 20:21:35 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 20:21:35 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <5822882F.1030406@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2016 11:33 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > Yea, that?s what I?m struggling with. The issue is that > the control units power the devices that are connected to > them (from what I can tell), so I have to power the entire > string as one unit. The same goes for the 3340?s - the > entire string is powered as a unit. The string of 3340?s > need ~5kVA (I don?t know how that translates to HP). I?m > still trying to figure out the requirements for the other > strings. TTFN - Guy Just a warning, you MUST NOT power electronics from a VFD! (In theory, you can do it with a VERY effective filter, but I've never heard of anybody having success with it.) They produce high frequency square waves at 400 V, and will do great damage to electronic loads. They work great for motors, although the HF square waves can cause noise issues in sensitive electronics like tape and disk drives. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 8 20:24:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 08 Nov 2016 20:24:06 -0600 Subject: Supercomputers, fishing for information In-Reply-To: References: <691c6baa-d6f9-b3ce-b251-897bec673b55@sydex.com> <581F7D21.10507@pico-systems.com> <5820C70C.1070700@pico-systems.com> <1ac100e8-e2aa-622e-c1df-f1eafb9e6e91@sydex.com> <20161108015905.GA15178@lonesome.com> <5821552C.20707@pico-systems.com> <582201B5.10705@pico-systems.com> <33AE0584-18D7-4071-931F-0779C1FEA842@shiresoft.com> <56F9F109-DBE9-4BF8-8649-3ED1F0DC0085@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <582288C6.7010004@pico-systems.com> On 11/08/2016 11:55 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> > The classic formula is 1 hp = 750 W. But there's more to the picture. Motors draw a steady state current based on the power demanded from them, and the hp rating shows the max that they are designed for. But when starting they draw much more current. Well, actually, motors draw a fairly constant current, and the phase angle between current and the applied voltage changes with load. At idle, a motor draws almost pure lagging current (phase almost 90 degrees lagging the voltage) and at full load the current is nearly in phase with the voltage. So, the POWER draw changes with load, but the line current changes much less! Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 8 20:44:18 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 18:44:18 -0800 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 Message-ID: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> well, not just ANY Multibus board http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 From scott at kevill.com Tue Nov 8 20:49:49 2016 From: scott at kevill.com (Scott Kevill) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 10:49:49 +0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Just wanted to say thanks for doing this scan (and of course all the other great work you do), Al, the quality was fantastic. For anyone else that didn't notice this (or forgot to check back), it's at: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/epson/printer/P80000001A_MX-80_Technical_Manual.pdf And it's much more readable (especially the diagrams). Scott. On 06/11/2016, at 1:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > A scan I did this morning will be up on bitsavers by 13:00 PDT > > On 11/5/16 9:36 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> They said they were working on it.. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keven >>> Miller >>> Sent: 05 November 2016 13:04 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >>> >>> I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. >>> So the link must have gotten fixed. >>> >>> I've placed here just in case: >>> >>> http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx- >>> 80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf >>> >>> Keven Miller >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Scott Kevill" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >>> >>> >>> >>> On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical >>> Manual? >>>> >>>> It's apparently intended to be available here: >>>> >>>> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- >>> Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ >>>> but I was unable to actually download it. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 21:19:35 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:19:35 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <20161108214303.939D118C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161108214303.939D118C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <086762a7-d94f-c59c-3b1a-b8e7b4a03b0d@gmail.com> On 11/8/16 1:43 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/44, I see the same behavior. > > If I run them on SIMH configured as an 11/20, then I get the printout > > described in the documentation and listings. ... I haven't yet dug in > > to see what accounts for the difference -- any ideas? > > The fact that the simulator produces identical results to the real hardware > would argue that it's not a bug in that particular hardware. So it must be > some real difference between the two. > > There are subtle differences between the 11/20, and other 11's - e.g. on the > /20 SWAB does't clear the V bit - maybe it's one of them? It might be worth > trying setting the CPU type to other values, and see if it works on any other > machine type. Turns out it's the XXDP XM monitor causing the issues (I would wager that it sets up the MMU in such a way that older diagnostics don't deal well). If I run it under the SM Monitor it works. Whew :). > > > 2) I'm looking for means to format DECtapes on the TC11. ... The > > maintenance manual only indicates "a special program supplied with the > > TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. > > The UNIX V6 distro includes a standalone program, tcf.s, to format DECtapes. > I don't know if you have a running V6 system (real or emulated) to assemble > it one; if you want me to assemble it and provide it as binary (in a variety > of formats, e.g. .LDA format), let me know. I could probably get a V6 distribution running if I need to, but if you have the means to do so easily, that would be handy so I can at least have another tool to try out. Something that XXDP can load would be useful. Thanks, Josh > > Noel > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Nov 8 22:21:40 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 04:21:40 +0000 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: For a 432 board, I'm not all that surprised. It only needs the 43203 board to be a system. Eric S. would have loved to get that board. I suspect 432 stuff is even rarer than Intel bouble memory. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 6:44:18 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 well, not just ANY Multibus board http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 From cramcram at gmail.com Tue Nov 8 21:16:21 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 19:16:21 -0800 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: A processor that Intel would love to forget... On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 6:44 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > well, not just ANY Multibus board > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Nov 9 02:59:14 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 09:59:14 +0100 (CET) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Nov 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found > this: > http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac ... which is simply a mirror of our FTP server at ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/... I enhanced DTF with some useful messages and error/status output. IIRC the "original" version produced no messages at all. > (1) above, I'm not averse to thinking there may be more than meets the eye > with this issue. > > So in a nutshell: Anyone used a TC11 on a later PDP-11 (like the 11/44)? > Anyone have any thoughts on the diagnostics and formatter issues? I have a TC11 with TU56 on our 11/34. Did you check the WRTM/WALL switches? Christian From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 03:26:51 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 02:26:51 -0700 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 9:21 PM, dwight wrote: > For a 432 board, I'm not all that surprised. > It only needs the 43203 board to be a system. > The iSBC 432/100 doesn't actually need a 43203, nor can it work with one. The iSBC 432/100 was an evaluation board that only ran OPL-432 ("Object Programming Language"), a dialect of Smalltalk. It was not suitable for running "normal" 432 software, which was written in Ada and used the iMAX-432 operating system. WIth OPL-432, the 8085 in the MDS performed all I/O and supervisory functions without a 43203 Interface Processor. OPL-432 is *only* able to run with the Release 1 432 components, while the "normal" 432 software only was supported on later releases. Release 1 had both architectural and implementation deficiencies, which were mostly corrected by Release 2.1, but OPL-432 was never revised for Release 2 and later. The "real" 432 system was the 432/600 series, with the 432/670 being the standard configuration. The 432/6xx boards had the same form factor as Multibus, but except for the 432/602 Interface Processor board, did not plug into Multibus. The 432/600 series had its own 32-bit backplane bus. Eric S. would have loved to get that board. > I have one complete 432/100 board, though I don't yet know with certainty whether it works. Unfortunately no one has turned up a copy of the 432/100 software. I'm working on my own software for it. The 432 has an object oriented architecture, and requires quite a few complex system objects to be set up in memory before it can execute a single instruction. I've been working for a few years on a 432 Release 1 image builder, which will take an XML description of a 432 software system and build a binary image for execution on the actual hardware. The work in progress is on github, but there's a lot yet to be done on it before it will be useful. I would like to get a second 432/100 board to have a better chance of having one working, but also because I think the only real chance of building an accurate 432 simulator will be to decap a set of 42301 and 43202 GDP components and dump the PLA contents. If I had two sets, after I had verified that one worked correctly, I'd arrange for the second, working or not, to be used for decap and photomicrograph. I expected that this board might go for over $3000. In better times, I would have been willing to pay that. > I suspect 432 stuff is even rarer than Intel bouble memory. > Yes, very much so. From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 01:38:05 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Tue, 8 Nov 2016 23:38:05 -0800 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Just going from memory but I had all the 432 data books at the time and I seem to remember that they actually had a 432 to bubble memory interface chip as well. Marc On Tue, Nov 8, 2016 at 8:21 PM, dwight wrote: > For a 432 board, I'm not all that surprised. > > It only needs the 43203 board to be a system. > > Eric S. would have loved to get that board. > > I suspect 432 stuff is even rarer than Intel bouble > > memory. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Al Kossow < > aek at bitsavers.org> > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 6:44:18 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 > > well, not just ANY Multibus board > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 9 08:47:05 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 14:47:05 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> , Message-ID: It is interesting that the MX-80 was copied by several other printer manufactures. For a while, the term MX-80 compatible was an important selling feature. The Canon Cat had configurations for many different Canon printers built in, from daisy wheel to bubble jet. It had one extra configuration called 'common printer' and guess which printer that is. The MX-80! Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Scott Kevill Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 6:49:49 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? Just wanted to say thanks for doing this scan (and of course all the other great work you do), Al, the quality was fantastic. For anyone else that didn't notice this (or forgot to check back), it's at: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/epson/printer/P80000001A_MX-80_Technical_Manual.pdf And it's much more readable (especially the diagrams). Scott. On 06/11/2016, at 1:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > A scan I did this morning will be up on bitsavers by 13:00 PDT > > On 11/5/16 9:36 AM, Dave Wade wrote: >> They said they were working on it.. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keven >>> Miller >>> Sent: 05 November 2016 13:04 >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >>> >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >>> >>> I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. >>> So the link must have gotten fixed. >>> >>> I've placed here just in case: >>> >>> http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx- >>> 80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf >>> >>> Keven Miller >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Scott Kevill" >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" >>> >>> Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? >>> >>> >>> >>> On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >>> >>>> Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical >>> Manual? >>>> >>>> It's apparently intended to be available here: >>>> >>>> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- >>> Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ >>>> but I was unable to actually download it. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 9 08:52:44 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 09:52:44 -0500 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0D3CA7BD-2415-4B68-9802-33AE30E352A7@comcast.net> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 3:59 AM, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Tue, 8 Nov 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: >> with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found >> this: >> http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac > > ... which is simply a mirror of our FTP server at > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/... > > I enhanced DTF with some useful messages and error/status output. IIRC the "original" version produced no messages at all. That sounds right. The convention of the paper tape era diagnostics is that errors are reported by halts at specific (documented) addresses, sometimes with specific values in R0. paul From j_hoppe at t-online.de Wed Nov 9 09:52:44 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:52:44 +0100 Subject: MACRO11 In-Reply-To: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> References: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: Hi, I was notified that my fork of R. Krebiehls code was already put into GitHub without notifying me, apparently in 2009. See github.com/shattered/macro11 "shattered" made a few changes too, to remove compiler warnings and improve commandline option check. I merged the changes there back into my fork. Joerg > J?rg Hoppe wrote: > >> Hi, >> >> my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on >> https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . >> >> Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. >> >> Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex >> notation instead of octal. >> I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern >> logic analyzer. >> >> Joerg > Thanks. > > Could you possible change all the occurences of stricmp() wich is a > mikeysoft-only thing, to the more standard strcasecmp()? > > Regards, > > Holm From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 14:20:19 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:20:19 -0800 Subject: MACRO11 In-Reply-To: References: <20161107133407.GA66228@beast.freibergnet.de> Message-ID: <2e7eb7c0-2aff-87f1-9f02-7412c6c1b65b@alum.mit.edu> And what about this one? https://github.com/Rhialto/macro11 (forked from shattered/macro11 it appears...) So which one of the three versions (at least, maybe more) is the 'preferred' ? On 11/9/2016 7:52 AM, J?rg Hoppe wrote: > Hi, > > I was notified that my fork of R. Krebiehls code was already put into GitHub > without notifying me, apparently in 2009. > > See github.com/shattered/macro11 > > "shattered" made a few changes too, to remove compiler warnings and improve > commandline option check. > > I merged the changes there back into my fork. > > Joerg > >> J?rg Hoppe wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> >>> my version of the MACRO11 cross-assembler for PDP-11 is now on >>> https://github.com/j-hoppe/MACRO11 . >>> >>> Among others it fixes the "JMP Rn is illegal" error on "jmp (rx)" opcode. >>> >>> Also I added the option "listhex" to produce a binary listing in hex >>> notation instead of octal. >>> I found this really necessary when analyzing test programs with a modern >>> logic analyzer. >>> >>> Joerg >> Thanks. >> >> Could you possible change all the occurences of stricmp() wich is a >> mikeysoft-only thing, to the more standard strcasecmp()? >> >> Regards, >> >> Holm > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 14:32:09 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 12:32:09 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 12:59 AM, Christian Corti < cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de> wrote: > On Tue, 8 Nov 2016, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> with the TC11 system," and I haven't managed to find it. I *have* found >> this: >> http://mirrors.pdp-11.ru/inf.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdp11/dtf.mac >> > > ... which is simply a mirror of our FTP server at > ftp://ftp.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pub/cm/... > > I enhanced DTF with some useful messages and error/status output. IIRC the > "original" version produced no messages at all. > > (1) above, I'm not averse to thinking there may be more than meets the eye >> with this issue. >> >> So in a nutshell: Anyone used a TC11 on a later PDP-11 (like the 11/44)? >> Anyone have any thoughts on the diagnostics and formatter issues? >> > > I have a TC11 with TU56 on our 11/34. Did you check the WRTM/WALL switches? Yep, even ran DTF with them flipped the other way around out of superstition :). Now that I've gotten the full suite of diagnostics to run, the problem seems to be that the TC11 isn't reading properly in reverse -- Tests 15,16,21,22,26,27 and 34 of ZTCD fail, all others pass (modulo a marginal block on the tape causing a failure here and there). This would probably explain why DTF fails immediately after writing T&M, since it works in reverse from that point... Time to sit down with the schematics and figure out where the problem may lie. Thanks, all, - Josh > > > Christian > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 9 14:52:58 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 15:52:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions Message-ID: <20161109205258.D573718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch >> The UNIX V6 distro includes a standalone program, tcf.s, to format >> DECtapes. > I could probably get a V6 distribution running if I need to, but if you > have the means to do so easily, that would be handy so I can at least > have another tool to try out. I had a look at tcf.s, and it depends on having been loaded by the V6 disk bootstrap - it uses the console driver in the bootstrap (the bootstrap leaves a pointer to it in R5). So it might be easier to use that DTF.MAC, which seems like it's mostly the same program, and which you apparently already have working? If you'd still like to use the V6 tcf, due to the teletype driver issue, probably the easist thing is that I could make up a miniature disk image (RK05, if you have that available), with both the V6 bootstap, and tcf on it. Otherwise, I might be able to cobble something together; a hacked version of tcf including the console driver, or something like that. > Something that XXDP can load would be useful. I know nothing of almost any DEC software, alas - I'm assuming it can handle .LDA files, but I don't know which format it prefers. > From: Christian Corti > I enhanced DTF with some useful messages and error/status output. IIRC > the "original" version produced no messages at all. Having just looked at the original :-), it did have two messages: "ready drive 0 and type y" and "tcf: error" (Shades of 'ed'.... :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 9 15:05:33 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 16:05:33 -0500 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > ... > > Now that I've gotten the full suite of diagnostics to run, the problem > seems to be that the TC11 isn't reading properly in reverse -- Tests > 15,16,21,22,26,27 and 34 of ZTCD fail, all others pass (modulo a marginal > block on the tape causing a failure here and there). This would probably > explain why DTF fails immediately after writing T&M, since it works in > reverse from that point... Not necessarily. I thought that reading direction simply changes the bit patterns seen by the electronics because the waveforms are reversed. This is the famous "obverse complement". In the Mark track, reversing the direction means that you see the bits in the opposite order and complemented. As I recall, the encoding takes advantage of this: the start of block code is the obverse complement of the end of block code (so that reversing means the "end" code now reads like "start"). In the data, you have 3 bits parallel. So there, reversing means that you get the 3 bits at a time reverse (think of octal digits reversed), complemented. For 16-bit data, look at it as 18 bits with 2 bits unused. In Read-All and Write-All, the controller doesn't do anything for direction, so if you write in one direction data meant to be read in the opposite direction, the software has to supply obverse-complement format data. For regular Read and Write, the controller does handle direction change: the reverse commands do an obverse-complement on the supplied data words, so your data ends up word-wise reversed but the bits are in the expected spot and of the expected polarity. The second pass (after the WRTM) in the formatting program is a reverse direction WALL, so my comment that the hardware doesn't do anything special for direction applies there. A possibility is that the motor has a problem causing an excessive speed difference between forward and reverse. But in any case, yes, scope and schematics seem needed here. paul From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 15:07:14 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 14:07:14 -0700 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Nov 9, 2016 4:39 AM, "Marc Howard" wrote: > Just going from memory but I had all the 432 data books at the time and I > seem to remember that they actually had a 432 to bubble memory interface > chip as well. I don't think so. At an early stage of 432 development, there was to be a 432 I/O Processor (IOP), which would have used normal peripheral chips commonly used othe Intel microprocessors. The IOP had its own instruction set, and would have needed its own compiler(s), etc. However, the IOP was cancelled in favor of something better, the 43203 Interface Processor (IP). The IP provided a bridge between the object-oriented environment of the 432, and a conventional microprocessor, known as the Attached Processor (AP), typically an 8086. This allowed any 8086-compatible peripheral chips to be used with the 432, and allowed any 8086 development tools, including compilers, to be used for the AP. In practice, AP software was written in PLM-86 and ran on the iRMX-86 operating system or iRMX-88 kernel. The Interface Processor looked like a 432 processor on the 432 side, but it looked like a memory device to the Attached Processor. It occupied 64KB of the AP address space, and provided four windows by which the AP could read and write the data portion of objects in 432 memory. A fifth memory window, the control window, was dedicated to managing the functions of the Interface Processor itself. The Interface Processor had an instruction set (called functions) but it didn't have a program counter and didn't fetch the instructions. Rather, it executed a function when told to do so by the Attached Processor. The AP would write the operands and function code into the control window. Writing the function code would trigger the IP to execute the function, and write any results into the control window. The IP would generate an interrupt to the AP when the function completed. Except for the serial port and timer on the iSBC 432/100 eval board, the 432 General Data Processor (GDP) never performs any I/O. On the 432/100, the 8251A USART and 8253 timer are memory-mapped into the special "Interconnect" address space of the GDP, where it can be accessed by special instuctions, but that is not used for I/O in normal 432 systems. The 432 GDP instruction set includes message Send and Receive instructions which work on Communication Port objects, and the Interface Processor provides those functions for the Attached Processor. The process running on the 432 GDP Sends an I/O request message (e.g., read or write a disk sector) to a Communication Port used for such requests, then (usually) does a Receive on a second Communication Port for a reply. Since the reply isn't yet there, the process will block waiting for it, and the GDP will dispatch another runnable process. The AP receives the request message from the request Communication Port (via the IP) performs the I/O, and Sends a reply message to the reply Communication Port. At that point it's entirely possible that the GDP is running a different process, but if so the reply will be enqueued add the waiting process will be unblocked and moved to the run queue. The whole scheme of Send, Receive, Communication Ports, and process scheduling and dispatch is implemented by hardware and microcode, which Intel called the "Silicon OS". By use of the Interface Processor, Intel avoided any need to build 432-specific peripheral chips. A typical Attached Processor subsystem used an iSBC 86/12A Multibus 8086 processor board, an iSBC 215 Multibus Winchester controller, snd iSBX 218A floppy controller (8272/uPD765 based), and possibly additional serial ports. Since iRMX 86 had driver support for the iSBC 254 and iSBX 251 bubble memory boards (both based on the D7220-1 Bubble Memory Controller), in principle those should work fine with the 432's iMAX-432 operating system, although I haven't heard of it actually being done. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 15:43:53 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 13:43:53 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Nov 9, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > ... > > > > Now that I've gotten the full suite of diagnostics to run, the problem > > seems to be that the TC11 isn't reading properly in reverse -- Tests > > 15,16,21,22,26,27 and 34 of ZTCD fail, all others pass (modulo a marginal > > block on the tape causing a failure here and there). This would probably > > explain why DTF fails immediately after writing T&M, since it works in > > reverse from that point... > > Not necessarily. I thought that reading direction simply changes the bit > patterns seen by the electronics because the waveforms are reversed. This > is the famous "obverse complement". > > In the Mark track, reversing the direction means that you see the bits in > the opposite order and complemented. As I recall, the encoding takes > advantage of this: the start of block code is the obverse complement of the > end of block code (so that reversing means the "end" code now reads like > "start"). > > In the data, you have 3 bits parallel. So there, reversing means that you > get the 3 bits at a time reverse (think of octal digits reversed), > complemented. For 16-bit data, look at it as 18 bits with 2 bits unused. > > In Read-All and Write-All, the controller doesn't do anything for > direction, so if you write in one direction data meant to be read in the > opposite direction, the software has to supply obverse-complement format > data. > > For regular Read and Write, the controller does handle direction change: > the reverse commands do an obverse-complement on the supplied data words, > so your data ends up word-wise reversed but the bits are in the expected > spot and of the expected polarity. > > The second pass (after the WRTM) in the formatting program is a reverse > direction WALL, so my comment that the hardware doesn't do anything special > for direction applies there. > > A possibility is that the motor has a problem causing an excessive speed > difference between forward and reverse. But in any case, yes, scope and > schematics seem needed here. > Those are good points. It's clear from running the diagnostics (ZTCC, not ZTCD, sorry for the important typo) that a Read in a reverse direction fails (but writes seem to be OK in either direction -- the tests that do forward reads, regardless of the write direction of the data universally pass). So there's definitely a fault there, but as you point out it may be a separate issue from the formatter problem. Read-All and Write-All tests (ZTCD) seem to be OK, but I'm going to re-run them just to be doubly-sure. If those pass, I'm going to start with scoping out the OBVERSE ENB H signals and the logic associated with them and see if there's anything fishy there. - Josh > > paul > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Nov 9 15:50:47 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 13:50:47 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/9/2016 1:43 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > t's clear from running the diagnostics (ZTCC, not > ZTCD, sorry for the important typo) that a Read in a reverse direction > fails (but writes seem to be OK in either direction -- the tests that do > forward reads, regardless of the write direction of the data universally > pass). When you do writes, you have to physically have a read station positioned after the write station on the head. Are there two such stations on the drive for reading? Otherwise the writes may just be blind writes, which would of course work as there isn't much to check other than to backspace and do a re-read. Just curious, as though I've got access to TU-56's have not looked for that detail. thanks jim From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 9 16:32:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 14:32:56 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7e27d66a-50dc-8efc-1e55-5e7d97ab9d51@bitsavers.org> On 11/9/16 1:50 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > Are > there two such stations on the drive for reading? Nope. DECtape only has one set of heads, so it writes blind. From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 16:57:54 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 14:57:54 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:43 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >> >> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 3:32 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> > >> > ... >> > >> > Now that I've gotten the full suite of diagnostics to run, the problem >> > seems to be that the TC11 isn't reading properly in reverse -- Tests >> > 15,16,21,22,26,27 and 34 of ZTCD fail, all others pass (modulo a >> marginal >> > block on the tape causing a failure here and there). This would >> probably >> > explain why DTF fails immediately after writing T&M, since it works in >> > reverse from that point... >> >> Not necessarily. I thought that reading direction simply changes the bit >> patterns seen by the electronics because the waveforms are reversed. This >> is the famous "obverse complement". >> >> In the Mark track, reversing the direction means that you see the bits in >> the opposite order and complemented. As I recall, the encoding takes >> advantage of this: the start of block code is the obverse complement of the >> end of block code (so that reversing means the "end" code now reads like >> "start"). >> >> In the data, you have 3 bits parallel. So there, reversing means that >> you get the 3 bits at a time reverse (think of octal digits reversed), >> complemented. For 16-bit data, look at it as 18 bits with 2 bits unused. >> >> In Read-All and Write-All, the controller doesn't do anything for >> direction, so if you write in one direction data meant to be read in the >> opposite direction, the software has to supply obverse-complement format >> data. >> >> For regular Read and Write, the controller does handle direction change: >> the reverse commands do an obverse-complement on the supplied data words, >> so your data ends up word-wise reversed but the bits are in the expected >> spot and of the expected polarity. >> >> The second pass (after the WRTM) in the formatting program is a reverse >> direction WALL, so my comment that the hardware doesn't do anything special >> for direction applies there. >> >> A possibility is that the motor has a problem causing an excessive speed >> difference between forward and reverse. But in any case, yes, scope and >> schematics seem needed here. >> > > Those are good points. It's clear from running the diagnostics (ZTCC, not > ZTCD, sorry for the important typo) that a Read in a reverse direction > fails (but writes seem to be OK in either direction -- the tests that do > forward reads, regardless of the write direction of the data universally > pass). So there's definitely a fault there, but as you point out it may be > a separate issue from the formatter problem. Read-All and Write-All tests > (ZTCD) seem to be OK, but I'm going to re-run them just to be doubly-sure. > If those pass, I'm going to start with scoping out the OBVERSE ENB H > signals and the logic associated with them and see if there's anything > fishy there. > > - Josh > A quick update -- I ran the ZTCD diagnostics and they do fail, despite my recollection (this is what I get for not taking notes at the end of yesterday, and yesterday seems so far away now...). The first test (a forward WALL, followed by an RALL of a single block) fails with the following spew (for example): BLKRQ 000310 DATA ERR WORD 00054. S/B 176376 WAS 104106 Based on a reading of the fiche listing (which is a slightly newer revision of the binary I have) I believe S/B is the expected data and "WAS" is the read-back data for a given word. Since one appears to be the obverse complement of the other, it looks like the obverse complement logic is running when it shouldn't be... - Josh > > > >> >> paul >> >> >> > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 20:09:19 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 09 Nov 2016 20:09:19 -0600 Subject: =?US-ASCII?Q?RE:_Various_Software_and_Documentation_for_?= =?US-ASCII?Q?shipping_+_donations_(round=0D__2,_much_delayed)?= Message-ID: Cindy as in electronic plus? -------- Original message --------From: "Tapley, Mark" I'm trying to help Cindy find homes for some of what's left from her warehouse. I can hold them only temporarily ( :-) ) From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 9 20:18:47 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:18:47 -0500 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> Message-ID: <6D12BF4C-0F1F-4C82-8B27-BFD07FE190DE@comcast.net> > On Nov 9, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > ... > A quick update -- I ran the ZTCD diagnostics and they do fail, despite my > recollection (this is what I get for not taking notes at the end of > yesterday, and yesterday seems so far away now...). The first test (a > forward WALL, followed by an RALL of a single block) fails with the > following spew (for example): > > BLKRQ 000310 DATA ERR WORD 00054. S/B 176376 WAS 104106 > > Based on a reading of the fiche listing (which is a slightly newer revision > of the binary I have) I believe S/B is the expected data and "WAS" is the > read-back data for a given word. Since one appears to be the obverse > complement of the other, it looks like the obverse complement logic is > running when it shouldn't be... Yes, those two patterns are indeed obverse complement. Word 0054? That's odd, if it's doing this wrong for a word in the middle of the buffer. Can you have it halt on fail so you can examine the buffer? paul From rlloken at telus.net Wed Nov 9 20:52:25 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:52:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: more on lisp compilers Message-ID: So last week there was some conversation about lisp compilers and an expressed interest in old VAX lisp comilers. Co-incidently, I was rooting through the morgue at work on semi legitimate business and found VAXlisp 2.2 copyright 1987. Sadly, it is on a TK50 and is the Ultrix version. Since it sparked my interest, I went through the rest of the pile but no VMS lisp compiler was unearthed. I found o-l-d VAX/VMS ADA, C, basic, pascal, fortran compilers but no lisp compilers and all on moldering TK50s lying in wait for any hapless tape drive that may accept them. Oh yes, this is all VMS 5.5-1 stuff, there seems to be an entire distro there plus a lot of layered products. These are reduntant, my employer's last VAX is now sleeping in my basement. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From rlloken at telus.net Wed Nov 9 20:57:39 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:57:39 -0700 (MST) Subject: The original Sun-1 workstation one more time Message-ID: I made some silly noise about a Sun-1 owner's manual recently (and I still haven't sent it out). Today, while browsing in the morgue I found an apparantly unused CDC Lark cartridge with a factory label declaring it to be Unix 1.1 boot media. Is there a functional CDC Lark surviving some place? Sure isn't one here. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 21:20:44 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 19:20:44 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <6D12BF4C-0F1F-4C82-8B27-BFD07FE190DE@comcast.net> References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> <6D12BF4C-0F1F-4C82-8B27-BFD07FE190DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/9/16 6:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Nov 9, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> ... >> A quick update -- I ran the ZTCD diagnostics and they do fail, despite my >> recollection (this is what I get for not taking notes at the end of >> yesterday, and yesterday seems so far away now...). The first test (a >> forward WALL, followed by an RALL of a single block) fails with the >> following spew (for example): >> >> BLKRQ 000310 DATA ERR WORD 00054. S/B 176376 WAS 104106 >> >> Based on a reading of the fiche listing (which is a slightly newer revision >> of the binary I have) I believe S/B is the expected data and "WAS" is the >> read-back data for a given word. Since one appears to be the obverse >> complement of the other, it looks like the obverse complement logic is >> running when it shouldn't be... > Yes, those two patterns are indeed obverse complement. Word 0054? That's odd, if it's doing this wrong for a word in the middle of the buffer. Can you have it halt on fail so you can examine the buffer? > > paul > > > It's actually word 4 (transcription error on my half) and it reports errors for all words in the block (though the reported word number doesn't actually correspond in any meaningful way to the word on tape, per the documentation); i just singled that one out for an example. They all show the read data being the obverse complement of the expected data. I'll be doing some serious debugging tomorrow... - Josh From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 22:24:30 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 22:24:30 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: "It is interesting that the MX-80 was copied by several other printer manufactures." The first printer I owned, ca. 1983, was a BMC BX-80. This printer was marketed as an "Epson Compatible", and for my purposes, it most certainly was. Driven by C-64 via the Cardco Card/?+G interface, it was capable of several standard text & imprint modes (draft, std, ital, ul, bold, etc), the CBM keyboard graphics characters and bitmap graphic images. It may also have printed custom C-64 character sets..? In any event, that printer served me flawlessly for several years until I moved on to bigger & better things. So who was BMC, anyway? I also happen to own a nice little green-screen monitor with their brand on it. It's clearly based on a B&W TV case & chassis, that lacks tuning, antenna connections, speaker and so on - in favor of a single RCA composite input. Monitor still works great, it's my go-to for old home computers. On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 8:47 AM, dwight wrote: > It is interesting that the MX-80 was copied by several other > > printer manufactures. For a while, the term MX-80 compatible > > was an important selling feature. > > The Canon Cat had configurations for many different Canon printers > > built in, from daisy wheel to bubble jet. It had one extra configuration > > called 'common printer' and guess which printer that is. The MX-80! > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Scott Kevill < > scott at kevill.com> > Sent: Tuesday, November 8, 2016 6:49:49 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > > Just wanted to say thanks for doing this scan (and of course all the other > great work you do), Al, the quality was fantastic. > > For anyone else that didn't notice this (or forgot to check back), it's at: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/epson/ > printer/P80000001A_MX-80_Technical_Manual.pdf > > And it's much more readable (especially the diagrams). > > Scott. > > On 06/11/2016, at 1:59 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > A scan I did this morning will be up on bitsavers by 13:00 PDT > > > > On 11/5/16 9:36 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > >> They said they were working on it.. > >> > >>> -----Original Message----- > >>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Keven > >>> Miller > >>> Sent: 05 November 2016 13:04 > >>> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >>> > >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > >>> > >>> I tried this link this morning (from Utah US) and got the manual. > >>> So the link must have gotten fixed. > >>> > >>> I've placed here just in case: > >>> > >>> http://www.3kranger.com/download/epson_-_mx- > >>> 80_dot_matrix_printer_-_technical_manual.pdf > >>> > >>> Keven Miller > >>> > >>> > >>> ----- Original Message ----- > >>> From: "Scott Kevill" > >>> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > >>> > >>> Sent: Sat 05 Nov 2016 01:24 AM > >>> Subject: Re: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> On 05/11/2016, at 4:29 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > >>> > >>>> Does anyone have a scan of the MX-80 Dot Matrix Printer Technical > >>> Manual? > >>>> > >>>> It's apparently intended to be available here: > >>>> > >>>> http://www.computinghistory.org.uk/det/39747/Epson-MX-80-Dot- > >>> Matrix-Printer-Technical-Manual/ > >>>> but I was unable to actually download it. > > From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 22:41:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 20:41:48 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/09/2016 06:47 AM, dwight wrote: > It is interesting that the MX-80 was copied by several other > > printer manufactures. For a while, the term MX-80 compatible > > was an important selling feature. The MX-80 (and FX-80) were among the least expensive of widely available dot-matrix printers that could also do graphics. Hence the wide appeal. IIRC, the MX-80 had serial (RS232) as an option with Centronics standard. The interesting thing was that the only thing the option really gave you was the EIA-to-TTL level shifting logic. I recall cobbling an adapter up using a couple of 2N2222 transistors and a 9V battery. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 22:59:09 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:59:09 -0700 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > The MX-80 (and FX-80) were among the least expensive of widely available > dot-matrix printers that could also do graphics. Hence the wide appeal. > Though it actually was extremely popular *before* they offered graphics for it. The original firmware supported text only. From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:14:42 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 23:14:42 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: So would the BMC BX-80 be a clone of the MX-80 or FX-80? Anyone have a sense of it? On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > The MX-80 (and FX-80) were among the least expensive of widely available > > dot-matrix printers that could also do graphics. Hence the wide appeal. > > > > Though it actually was extremely popular *before* they offered graphics for > it. The original firmware supported text only. > From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:19:32 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 05:19:32 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > IIRC, the MX-80 had serial (RS232) as an option with Centronics > standard. The interesting thing was that the only thing the option > really gave you was the EIA-to-TTL level shifting logic. I recall > cobbling an adapter up using a couple of 2N2222 transistors and a 9V > battery. These Epson printers (not just the MX80, but other somewhat related models) had a header socket on the logic board that carried the Centronics signals and a few other things. It was designed for custom interface boards. One such board was indeed a bit-banged (by the printer's microcontroller) RS232 interface. There was a pin on the connector that you grounded to get the microcontroller to read in bit-banged data. I think the Centronics data lines were used to read a DIP switch on the interface board to specify things like baud rate. Other intefaces used the Centronics interface in a more conventional way. There was an RS232 board with its own microcontroller and buffer RAM that didn't use the bit-banging functions of the printer microcontroller. There was an IEEE-488 interface from Epsom (it was a load of TTL from what I recall). And HP made an HPIL interface board to go there (microcontroller and 1LB3 chip). -tony > > --Chuck > > > From kspt.tor at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:27:00 2016 From: kspt.tor at gmail.com (Tor Arntsen) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 06:27:00 +0100 Subject: OT: Excessive bounce notices? In-Reply-To: References: <5tjfh5xr1d780s779pg3i6ns.1477202002501@email.android.com> Message-ID: Sigh. Again. Lost two days of messages this time. 'Excessive bounces'. I have a gmail address. It's not like google will disappear, what's the point of disabling list members on a gmail address? Presumably there was another general network-wide ddos attack which affected the network as a whole (it's not likely that google's infrastructure itself was affected ). Why is it that the cc-tech mailing list is the only one where members get their membership disabled on a routine basis? It's never happened to me on any of the other uncountable mailing lists I've been a member of over the years. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:27:17 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 05:27:17 +0000 Subject: Old Epson printers Message-ID: Talk of the MX-80 has reminded me of a couple of more obscure models... The first is the TX80. This, I think is a little older. The mechanism is strange, it has one DC motor (and no steppers). The motor drives a dual-pitch scroll thing (sort of a coarse leadscrew) that as it turns in one direction moves the printhead left to right and then returns it more rapidly. On the return journey it (mechanically) causes a linefeed. I have never seen a complete TX80, but the mechanism turned up in an early Commodore printer (2023 or some such) and I think I have a logic board from the Epson one somewhere. The other is a bit later. The HI-80. This is a 4 (ballpoint) pen plotter. No, not the well-known Alps mechanism. This has the 4 pens on a sliding mechanism on the carriage. It is moved by running the carriage into the end stops (!). There are the obvious 2 stepper motors (one for carriage movement, one to move the paper) and a solenoid to lower the pen. The HI-80 certainly has the connector for optional interface boards. I think the TX80 does as well. Incidentally I am looking for any manuals for the HI-80. Documentation on the TX80 would be interesting too. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 23:28:38 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:28:38 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <7d146d8b-d3ff-fbc7-7e06-09c8897a5d8f@sydex.com> On 11/09/2016 08:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: > >> The MX-80 (and FX-80) were among the least expensive of widely >> available dot-matrix printers that could also do graphics. Hence >> the wide appeal. >> > > Though it actually was extremely popular *before* they offered > graphics for it. The original firmware supported text only. Sure, but then there was little use of dot-matrix graphics, which were pretty coarse. At the time, I think I was using a Mannesmann Tally printer that, oddly enough (recall this was the time of the 5150) used an 8088 as its controller. Similarly, the Diablo 630 was often the default daisy-wheel printer, even though it was far from the cheapest--but they were *everywhere* in the business world. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:31:28 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 05:31:28 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <7d146d8b-d3ff-fbc7-7e06-09c8897a5d8f@sydex.com> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <7d146d8b-d3ff-fbc7-7e06-09c8897a5d8f@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Similarly, the Diablo 630 was often the default daisy-wheel printer, > even though it was far from the cheapest--but they were *everywhere* in > the business world. > To the extent that (IIRC) there was a DIP switch setting for some early Apple Laserwriters that made it Diablo 630 compatible rather than accepting Postscript. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 9 23:31:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 21:31:19 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> On 11/09/2016 09:19 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Other intefaces used the Centronics interface in a more conventional > way. There was an RS232 board with its own microcontroller and buffer > RAM that didn't use the bit-banging functions of the printer > microcontroller. There was an IEEE-488 interface from Epsom (it was a > load of TTL from what I recall). And HP made an HPIL interface board > to go there (microcontroller and 1LB3 chip). Was a Dataproducts interface ever offered for the MX-80? Back in the day, it was almost as popular as Centronics on mid-sized systems. Now, of course, few people remember it. --Chuck From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 9 23:36:15 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 05:36:15 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Was a Dataproducts interface ever offered for the MX-80? Back in the > day, it was almost as popular as Centronics on mid-sized systems. Was that the one that was fairly similar to Centronics but with some signals inverted? I have never heard of an Epson interface board for it, but it would not surprise me if one existed. Wouldn't have to come from Epson, the interface connector was documented so third parties could make their own interfaces. Incidentally. some of the RS232 interfaces for these printers did 20mA current loop as well. > Now, of course, few people remember it. Now, few people remember Centronics :-) -tony From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 10 00:24:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Nov 2016 22:24:18 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> Message-ID: <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> On 11/09/2016 09:36 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 5:31 AM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: > >> Was a Dataproducts interface ever offered for the MX-80? Back in >> the day, it was almost as popular as Centronics on mid-sized >> systems. > > Was that the one that was fairly similar to Centronics but with some > signals inverted? Yes--and IIRC, it used a 50-conductor connection as well. We had some big CDC OEM line printers in the mid 1980s that could be configured for either interface. Before that, in about 1975 we had a Diablo dot-matrix printer (a strange, very loud beast) that used the DP interface. (ISTR that it also used three Rockwell PPS-8s). Memory grows dim with each passing year. --Chuck From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 10 04:27:24 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:27:24 +0100 (CET) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <20161109205258.D573718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161109205258.D573718C098@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Nov 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Having just looked at the original :-), it did have two messages: > > "ready drive 0 and type y" > > and > > "tcf: error" Seems the original must have been the XXDP TC11 DECtape formatter program by Robert J. Collins. I have no clue where I found the RT11 version of this, it must have been in 2005 after we got the TC11 and TU56 along with the 11/20 and other peripherals. The modified version was part of DECUS, it is listed in the August 1978 edition of the PDP11 DECUS catalog (page 28, program no. 11-216), but apparently it isn't online (any more?). Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 10 06:42:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 07:42:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions Message-ID: <20161110124233.8B61A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Christian Corti > Seems the original must have been the XXDP TC11 DECtape formatter > program by Robert J. Collins. I have no clue where I found the RT11 > version of this So that made me wonder if the V6 Unix version of tcf.s really was related to DTF.MAC. I checked out the two of them, and it seems they are likely un-related; very different structure, etc. BTW, I noticed a couple of places in DTF.MAC where error checking code was commented out, e.g.: ;EHLT4: XX ;HALT WITH BLK#IN LIGHTS, CONTINUE ; MOV #257.,R0 ;TO FIND DATA WORD POSITION ; ADD TOG1,R0 ;DETERMINE WHICH WORD IS WRONG ;EHLT5: XX ;HALT WITH #OF WORD IN LIGHTS. 0=REV. CHKSUM ; MOV @TCDT,R0 ;CONTINUE TO FETCH BAD WORD ;EHLT6: XX ;HALT WITH BAD DATA IN LIGHTS. CONTINUE Maybe it would be useful to un-comment them? > On Nov 9, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I believe S/B is the expected data Yes, probably stands for 'should be'. Noel From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 10 08:17:39 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 15:17:39 +0100 (CET) Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: <20161110124233.8B61A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161110124233.8B61A18C08A@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Nov 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > BTW, I noticed a couple of places in DTF.MAC where error checking code was > commented out, e.g.: > > ;EHLT4: XX ;HALT WITH BLK#IN LIGHTS, CONTINUE > ; MOV #257.,R0 ;TO FIND DATA WORD POSITION > ; ADD TOG1,R0 ;DETERMINE WHICH WORD IS WRONG > ;EHLT5: XX ;HALT WITH #OF WORD IN LIGHTS. 0=REV. CHKSUM > ; MOV @TCDT,R0 ;CONTINUE TO FETCH BAD WORD > ;EHLT6: XX ;HALT WITH BAD DATA IN LIGHTS. CONTINUE > > Maybe it would be useful to un-comment them? No, this is the old code to display the error words in the front-panel display. Instead, my code (that follows the commented one) converts the words to ASCII octal representation and displays the appropriate error message on the console. Christian From sales at elecplus.com Thu Nov 10 10:45:47 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:45:47 -0600 Subject: old DEC drives available Message-ID: <03fe01d23b71$e338a810$a9a9f830$@com> _____ WTS the following items: 3 Used DEC DSP3107L 1.07GB 3.5IN 3H SCSI 50PIN 4 Used DEC RH20E-DB 510 Meg SCSI Drive -DSP 3201L RH31K-AW _____ Jim Firlik Excess Enterprises (817) 267-9700 email: jim at 4excess.com _____ I have no idea what he wants for them. Not affiliated with the seller. I just know these are getting harder to find. Cindy Croxton Electronics Plus From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 12:13:33 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 18:13:33 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:24 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: [Dataproducts interface] > Yes--and IIRC, it used a 50-conductor connection as well. We had some Which was the one that used that rectangular connector often mis-called the V.35 connector? I have a thing called a Ferret here. It's a combined breakout box, RS232 to current loop to parallel interface, strip printer, EPROM programmer, Z80 computer, etc. The parellel interface can be set up to be either Centronics or Dataproducts. > big CDC OEM line printers in the mid 1980s that could be configured for > either interface. Before that, in about 1975 we had a Diablo dot-matrix > printer (a strange, very loud beast) that used the DP interface. (ISTR > that it also used three Rockwell PPS-8s). Memory grows dim with each > passing year. Some of the old Daisywheel printers, both Diablo and Qume had an interface with over 20 data lines. You specified print wheel position, amount to advance the carriage, etc on separate lines. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 10 12:20:39 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:20:39 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> Message-ID: <6d61553d-04d5-8570-7488-0d0a2efc2a61@bitsavers.org> On 11/10/16 10:13 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Which was the one that used that rectangular connector often mis-called > the V.35 connector? > Data Products uses a 50 pin Winchester Electronics connector. dbit makes a converter http://www.dbit.com/wilson/dplpc/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 12:22:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:22:39 -0800 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Nov 4, 2016 8:03 AM, "Glen Slick" wrote: > > > The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). > > > > Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly the same. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 Sold for $202.50 this time around. Anyone here take the chance on it? From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Nov 10 12:42:18 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:42:18 -0800 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> On 11/10/2016 10:22 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 4, 2016 8:03 AM, "Glen Slick" wrote: >>> The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). >>> >> Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly > the same. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 > Sold for $202.50 this time around. Anyone here take the chance on it? Someone with 434 feedback and history of vintage stuff bid the auction up against a bidder with private auction info. I suspect the Private guy was a shill, as the only information that is shared now is the general history of bids for your opponent, and the count (if not private). So concealing that history and count is the way the shill can obscure their identity. So still stinks. I suspect that Mr. 434 didn't know what he / she was dealing with and was lucky not to lose > 202.50 worth of their money and a lot of time. thanks Jim From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 12:50:13 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 13:50:13 -0500 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: I do watch the auctions for this Helios drive but won't bid. Too much BS going on with this seller, it seems. I suspect the private seller is an alter ego of his. I did manage to find a Cromemco PFD Persci dual drive this morning on eBay for $250. I have every confidence this will come. I would have no confidence with the Helios seller. On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 1:42 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/10/2016 10:22 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Nov 4, 2016 8:03 AM, "Glen Slick" wrote: >> >>> The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). >>>> >>>> Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly >>> >> the same. >> >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 >>> >> Sold for $202.50 this time around. Anyone here take the chance on it? >> > Someone with 434 feedback and history of vintage stuff bid the auction up > against a bidder with private auction info. I suspect the Private guy was > a shill, as the only information that is shared now is the general history > of bids for your opponent, and the count (if not private). > > So concealing that history and count is the way the shill can obscure > their identity. So still stinks. I suspect that Mr. 434 didn't know what > he / she was dealing with and was lucky not to lose > 202.50 worth of their > money and a lot of time. > > thanks > Jim > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 10 12:52:50 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 18:52:50 +0000 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> , <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: The way you know it was a shill bit is that the bidder will get a notice that the top bidder dropped out. With the newer rules that ebay came up with the second bidder may be required to take it at their high bid if the seller is willing to take that much for it. It is really scummy. The rule almost encourages shill bidding. They know it but it is all about profit. The other one is that you see the item relisted by the same seller. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jim stephens Sent: Thursday, November 10, 2016 10:42:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item On 11/10/2016 10:22 AM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 4, 2016 8:03 AM, "Glen Slick" wrote: >>> The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). >>> >> Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly > the same. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 > Sold for $202.50 this time around. Anyone here take the chance on it? Someone with 434 feedback and history of vintage stuff bid the auction up against a bidder with private auction info. I suspect the Private guy was a shill, as the only information that is shared now is the general history of bids for your opponent, and the count (if not private). So concealing that history and count is the way the shill can obscure their identity. So still stinks. I suspect that Mr. 434 didn't know what he / she was dealing with and was lucky not to lose > 202.50 worth of their money and a lot of time. thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 10 12:52:42 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:52:42 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> Message-ID: <1aa625ac-ac39-3d79-9d78-614d2283177b@sydex.com> On 11/10/2016 10:13 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Some of the old Daisywheel printers, both Diablo and Qume had an > interface with over 20 data lines. You specified print wheel > position, amount to advance the carriage, etc on separate lines. Yup--my first daisywheel was the original Hitype--the one with the external (3 fan noisy) power supply. It had the OEM interface and I hooked that to an S100 card with 3 parallel ports. It was pretty cool; you could do logic-seeking, plotting, prop spacing and a host of other tricks with it. I think I still have the driver I wrote for it--and may have the OEM manual as well buried somewhere. Did I ever mention that I was well acquainted with the folks at Diablo-before-Xerox? Several wound up at Qume. Sigh. Daisywheels seem to be in the category of "unwanted junk". I still have a Qume and an Olivetti (sold with the M24) unit and have been unable to give them away. It seems that if a printer won't do graphics, nobody wants it. I did manage to give away a Diablo 630. --Chuck From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Thu Nov 10 12:53:25 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 10:53:25 -0800 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> <59347206-57c0-8f39-e7e7-5a632773f609@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <009f01d23b83$b893bc50$29bb34f0$@net> >I suspect that Mr. 434 didn't know > what he / she was dealing with and was lucky not to lose > 202.50 worth > of their money and a lot of time. > > thanks > Jim Time maybe, money no. This is the one reason eBay stays in business and people spend money there. You are basically guaranteed not to get screwed as a buyer - the same can't be said at many of the other sites (e.g. Etsy). This is also why sellers won't leave eBay because the buyers are not willing to go to a site w/ no guarantees, drop a wad of cash, and hope the seller delivers! Sellers can complain as much as they want but the truth is the eBay model allows and encourages bigger bids/higher selling prices. -Ali From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 13:05:16 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 19:05:16 +0000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <1aa625ac-ac39-3d79-9d78-614d2283177b@sydex.com> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> <1aa625ac-ac39-3d79-9d78-614d2283177b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Yup--my first daisywheel was the original Hitype--the one with the > external (3 fan noisy) power supply. It had the OEM interface and I I think I have one somewhere. Don't have the PSU for it, it came with a word processor system, and the PSU in the CPU box (large deskside unit) powers the printer as well. [...] > Sigh. Daisywheels seem to be in the category of "unwanted junk". I It's a pity that far too many classic computer enthsiasts who run the original hardware consider the CPU to be the only part worth saving. Not printers, not even disk units in some cases. And yet the CPU is not the entire system at all... > still have a Qume and an Olivetti (sold with the M24) unit and have been > unable to give them away. It seems that if a printer won't do graphics, > nobody wants it. I did manage to give away a Diablo 630. But a daisywheel can do graphics. One of the programs for the Apple ][ -- I think it was called ApplePlot, could do a high res screen dump on a Qume 5 daisywheel printer. It used the '.' character only, positioning it very carefully. There were even daisywheels made with a metal pin for the '.', everything else being plastic, so they didn't wear out too quickly when used for such things. Strangest thing I have seen on a Diablo 630 chassis. A Sanders 700. That's a 7 pin dot matrix printer with the printhead in place of the daisywheel of the 630. Same carriage/paper feed mechanism. It takes plug-in ROM cartridges for the fonts, and does 8 passes of the head for some of them. -tony > > --Chuck > > > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 10 13:09:37 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:09:37 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <6d61553d-04d5-8570-7488-0d0a2efc2a61@bitsavers.org> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> <6d61553d-04d5-8570-7488-0d0a2efc2a61@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/10/2016 10:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/10/16 10:13 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > >> Which was the one that used that rectangular connector often >> mis-called the V.35 connector? >> > > Data Products uses a 50 pin Winchester Electronics connector. dbit > makes a converter http://www.dbit.com/wilson/dplpc/ Sometimes called an "M/50" connector. It has 4 rows of pins for a total of 50 and it's quite often confused with V.35, which uses an M/34 (34 pins in 4 rows) connector. The same way that an RJ21 phone/SCSI connector is sometimes mistaken for a "Centronics" connector. The similarities are striking in both cases. --Chuck From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 10 13:31:02 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:31:02 -0800 Subject: more on lisp compilers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > So last week there was some conversation about lisp compilers and an > expressed interest in old VAX lisp comilers. Co-incidently, I was rooting > through the morgue at work on semi legitimate business and found > VAXlisp 2.2 copyright 1987. Sadly, it is on a TK50 and is the Ultrix > version. > Ultrix? Is there a label that identifies the target platform? I have a DECstation 5000/200 running Ultrix, as well as a TK50 that works with it. > > Since it sparked my interest, I went through the rest of the pile but > no VMS lisp compiler was unearthed. I found o-l-d VAX/VMS ADA, C, basic, > pascal, fortran compilers but no lisp compilers and all on moldering > TK50s lying in wait for any hapless tape drive that may accept them. > > Oh yes, this is all VMS 5.5-1 stuff, there seems to be an entire distro > there plus a lot of layered products. These are reduntant, my employer's > last VAX is now sleeping in my basement. That TK50 drive works on my VAX 4000/300 as well.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From jwsmail at jwsss.com Thu Nov 10 13:36:59 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:36:59 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape Message-ID: I don't know if anyone here has the interest or capability to do it, but creating a replica of the blue tape trays with the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of DEC or other diagnostics would be nice. Perhaps if there were a ready source of replicas with a perpetual listing or 10 to overwhelm the auctions with 100 and 300 dollar auctions for the genuine originals the originals would be listed and sold for a reasonable amount. I'm sure there there are things going to people with no idea what they have which would have been nice to image and save. I would think someone with vacuum molding and some skill with plastics could do the trays. not sure about the source of tapes to sell with them, maybe that does justify some extra expense. People with working readers and libraries of tapes might like them as well. thanks Jim From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 10 13:55:32 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 11:55:32 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> There has to be a better solution than either the vaccum or all-plex cases for paper tape. Neither one is very good for anything other than what the slots were set up for (like 1") Short ones get bunched together in a slot, and long ones bridge slots. Either way, you end up not being able to see the labels. > but creating a replica of the blue tape trays with > the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of DEC or other diagnostics would > be nice. > From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 10 14:44:26 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 12:44:26 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <57f5dee8-618b-2525-ee0e-45e9dd88a904@sydex.com> <4ca602a5-a87e-0e95-7945-9c37334a7145@sydex.com> <1aa625ac-ac39-3d79-9d78-614d2283177b@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/10/2016 11:05 AM, Tony Duell wrote: > Strangest thing I have seen on a Diablo 630 chassis. A Sanders 700. > That's a 7 pin dot matrix printer with the printhead in place of the > daisywheel of the 630. Same carriage/paper feed mechanism. It takes > plug-in ROM cartridges for the fonts, and does 8 passes of the head > for some of them. It was a rather incestuous community back then. One thing that our printer designers were well aware of and referred to, were the Sanders patent applications. A lot later printers used a stepper for horizontal positioning; we used a rather expensive DC motor with a precision (etched glass) optical encoder. We could do NLQ with no more than 3 passes, although the speed dropped considerably on the denser (downloadable) fonts. It pretty much mandated a film ribbon to get any degree of sharpness. --Chuck From aswood at t-online.de Thu Nov 10 16:07:04 2016 From: aswood at t-online.de (aswood at t-online.de) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 23:07:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: AW: more on lisp compilers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1478815624450.2778703.42f3efb06a7e7050cd55436d03937bf5c92f3f64@spica.telekom.de> At least VAX LISP docs can be found on this site: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/common_lisp_family -----Original-Nachricht----- Betreff: Re: more on lisp compilers Datum: 2016-11-10T20:31:13+0100 Von: "Ian S. King" An: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 6:52 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > So last week there was some conversation about lisp compilers and an > expressed interest in old VAX lisp comilers. Co-incidently, I was rooting > through the morgue at work on semi legitimate business and found > VAXlisp 2.2 copyright 1987. Sadly, it is on a TK50 and is the Ultrix > version. > Ultrix? Is there a label that identifies the target platform? I have a DECstation 5000/200 running Ultrix, as well as a TK50 that works with it. > > Since it sparked my interest, I went through the rest of the pile but > no VMS lisp compiler was unearthed. I found o-l-d VAX/VMS ADA, C, basic, > pascal, fortran compilers but no lisp compilers and all on moldering > TK50s lying in wait for any hapless tape drive that may accept them. > > Oh yes, this is all VMS 5.5-1 stuff, there seems to be an entire distro > there plus a lot of layered products. These are reduntant, my employer's > last VAX is now sleeping in my basement. That TK50 drive works on my VAX 4000/300 as well.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." ? From pye at mactec.com.au Thu Nov 10 16:57:20 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:57:20 +1000 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <74387617-8808-47E7-97AF-A4D0763F9C6F@mactec.com.au> > On 10 Nov 2016, at 3:14 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > So would the BMC BX-80 be a clone of the MX-80 or FX-80? Anyone have a > sense of it? It was also my first printer. I pretty sure it was a clone of the MX-80 with graphics option. I bought it (well actually my parents) from a shop that sold Taiwanese Apple clones, so I?m guessing it may have similar origins. From chd at chdickman.com Thu Nov 10 19:36:29 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 20:36:29 -0500 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays? On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 2:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > There has to be a better solution than either the vaccum or all-plex cases for paper tape. Neither one is very good for > anything other than what the slots were set up for (like 1") Short ones get bunched together in a slot, and long ones > bridge slots. Either way, you end up not being able to see the labels. > >> but creating a replica of the blue tape trays with >> the clear overlay that one could sell for a few bucks with some random fanfold copies of DEC or other diagnostics would >> be nice. >> > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Nov 10 21:24:27 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 21:24:27 -0600 Subject: What the heck is the deal with this eBay item In-Reply-To: References: <6E8AD756-B8FD-47FA-B6F9-B66CBEA74FF5@optonline.net> <581C76F6.7040002@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <582539EB.6010701@pico-systems.com> On 11/10/2016 12:22 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Nov 4, 2016 8:03 AM, "Glen Slick" wrote: >>> The listing seems to have vanished now. (Probably just as well). >>> >> Maybe the listing was reported and removed. It was listed again exactly > the same. >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/272436936862 > Sold for $202.50 this time around. Anyone here take the chance on it? > Note the shipping is $150! Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 10 22:55:45 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:55:45 -0600 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: <74387617-8808-47E7-97AF-A4D0763F9C6F@mactec.com.au> References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <74387617-8808-47E7-97AF-A4D0763F9C6F@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: (Of the BMC BX-80) "It was also my first printer." And that was down in AU, event? Interesting, I guess they made their way all over the place (mine was bought in Minnesota, USA). What were your experiences with it? I found mine to be utterly un-flappable, with only the occasional paper jam if I was playing around with it way too much. Otherwise, it never skipped a beat. Print quality was the equal or better of any genuine Epson machine I came across at that time. Really an ideal experience, on my end. So who were BMC, and where are they now? On Thu, Nov 10, 2016 at 4:57 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > > > On 10 Nov 2016, at 3:14 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > So would the BMC BX-80 be a clone of the MX-80 or FX-80? Anyone have a > > sense of it? > > It was also my first printer. I pretty sure it was a clone of the MX-80 > with graphics option. I bought it (well actually my parents) from a shop > that sold Taiwanese Apple clones, so I?m guessing it may have similar > origins. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 11 00:05:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 10 Nov 2016 22:05:32 -0800 Subject: Epson MX-80 Technical Manual? In-Reply-To: References: <4BDD68B6-6B85-432B-9DA7-98F3BCEC0170@kevill.com> <023EDC0EE526481B91B153E1FE74069C@ranger1> <088901d23782$b6a6b320$23f41960$@gmail.com> <74387617-8808-47E7-97AF-A4D0763F9C6F@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/10/2016 08:55 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > Really an ideal experience, on my end. So who were BMC, and where are > they now? BMC International is a Japanese company, based in Osaka. http://www.bmcinc.co.jp/our-company/ I remember them mostly for their display monitors, which seemed to be ubiquitous in the Apple market. --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 11 09:32:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 07:32:55 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. That is why a box of fanfold sells for 25$ and up on eBay, even more if it is has the DEC logo. On 11/10/16 5:36 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > And where can I get new fan-fold paper tape to put in the trays? > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 11 09:42:55 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 10:42:55 -0500 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. > No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. Cutting it to proper card shape is not trivial, admittedly. Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold. paul From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Nov 11 09:49:16 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:49:16 +0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning wrote: > Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines > perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold. > There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although it's on a roll. http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 11 10:53:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:53:45 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. > > No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper stock to IBM card stock specifications. Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. Nothing has resulted from either discussion. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 11 10:55:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 08:55:04 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: you can still buy rolls from Western NC http://www.westnc.com/paper-tape-rolls.html it ain't cheap On 11/11/16 7:49 AM, Tom Moss wrote: > On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines >> perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold. >> > > There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although > it's on a roll. > http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm > From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Fri Nov 11 11:01:53 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 17:01:53 +0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11 November 2016 at 16:53, Al Kossow wrote: > This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper > stock to IBM card stock specification Did all punch card manufacturers use the same stock though? I vaguely recall ICL cards feeling somewhat smoother? From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 12:55:04 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:55:04 -0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <021101d23c4d$1db07e60$59117b20$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul > Koning > Sent: 11 November 2016 15:43 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape > > > > On Nov 11, 2016, at 10:32 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. > > No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. > > No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the proper thicknes... ... would love a box of cards > would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. Cutting it to > proper card shape is not trivial, admittedly. > > Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines perhaps. > That's typically roll tape, not fanfold. > In the UK GNT still supply http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm > paul > Dave G4UGM From mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Fri Nov 11 12:58:20 2016 From: mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us (Mike Loewen) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:58:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <021101d23c4d$1db07e60$59117b20$@gmail.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <021101d23c4d$1db07e60$59117b20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Dave Wade wrote: >>> There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. >> >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers > > I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the proper > thicknes... > ... would love a box of cards Check with older IT staff members at your local universities. Some of them still have boxes of unpunched cards that they use for making notes. Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Nov 11 13:11:23 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 19:11:23 -0000 Subject: more on lisp compilers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <00d201d23c4f$64b06350$2e1129f0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Loken > Sent: 10 November 2016 02:52 > To: Classic Computer List > Subject: more on lisp compilers > > So last week there was some conversation about lisp compilers and an > expressed interest in old VAX lisp comilers. Co-incidently, I was rooting > through the morgue at work on semi legitimate business and found VAXlisp > 2.2 copyright 1987. Sadly, it is on a TK50 and is the Ultrix version. > > Since it sparked my interest, I went through the rest of the pile but no VMS > lisp compiler was unearthed. I found o-l-d VAX/VMS ADA, C, basic, pascal, > fortran compilers but no lisp compilers and all on moldering TK50s lying in > wait for any hapless tape drive that may accept them. It would be good to know the version numbers of the compilers you have found to see if the tapes should be imaged. Regards Rob > > Oh yes, this is all VMS 5.5-1 stuff, there seems to be an entire distro there > plus a lot of layered products. These are reduntant, my employer's last VAX > is now sleeping in my basement. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those > Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From ba600 at ncf.ca Fri Nov 11 10:37:07 2016 From: ba600 at ncf.ca (Mike) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 11:37:07 -0500 Subject: Looking for terminals again In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> On Monday, November 07, 2016 17:22:22 Brian Adams wrote: > The interest in video terminals has been awoken again, and I am again > searching for one. I like the look/size of the VT220s, very nice and > compact! > > > Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? I?m probably > somewhat interested! > > -brian Is Ottawa too far away? I have a few AS400 (9404) and at least 1 terminal for it as well as Volker Craig and a few others. -- Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 14:25:34 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:25:34 -0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <021101d23c4d$1db07e60$59117b20$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <008001d23c59$c21a5ff0$464f1fd0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike > Loewen > Sent: 11 November 2016 18:58 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Paper tape carriers and paper tape > > On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Dave Wade wrote: > > >>> There are no suppliers, and the NOS stuff is all gone. > >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. > >> > >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper > >> manufacturers > > > > I tried to get some made. Supplier could not source any card of the > > proper thicknes... > > ... would love a box of cards > > Check with older IT staff members at your local universities. Some of them > still have boxes of unpunched cards that they use for making notes. > > > Mike Loewen mloewen at cpumagic.scol.pa.us > Old Technology http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/ I think in the one I worked in all the staff who might have had cards have been purged long ago, but I do know another place to ask... Dave From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 11 15:56:46 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 13:56:46 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right specifications. > This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper stock to IBM card stock specifications. A friend I know in St. Louis had them made regularly at an client's operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They may still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the favors exist to get more made. Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# + They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches. thanks Jim > Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. > > Nothing has resulted from either discussion. > > > > From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 11 16:03:36 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:03:36 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:56 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. >>>> >>> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper >>> manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right >>> specifications. >>> >> This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper >> stock to IBM card stock specifications. >> > A friend I know in St. Louis had them made regularly at an client's > operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They may > still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the favors > exist to get more made. > > Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it > isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that > handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of > newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# + > > They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a > scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches. > > thanks > Jim > > Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. >> >> Nothing has resulted from either discussion. >> >> >> Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards. It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From phb.hfx at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 16:17:53 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 18:17:53 -0400 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 2016-11-11 6:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 1:56 PM, jim stephens wrote: > >> >> On 11/11/2016 8:53 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> On 11/11/16 7:42 AM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. >>>> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper >>>> manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right >>>> specifications. >>>> >>> This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper >>> stock to IBM card stock specifications. >>> >> A friend I know in St. Louis had them made regularly at an client's >> operation. The card stock for credit card pull forms is correct. They may >> still have the dies for their machines. However I don't think the favors >> exist to get more made. >> >> Can check though. The card stock comes in 12' diameter rolls, so it >> isn't a "pretty please" sort of favor to get the machines set up that >> handle the manufacturing process. Think rolls of paper the size of >> newsprint, and weighing in at 3000# + >> >> They might also be able to do paper tape, though I'd favor if it is a >> scratch operation doing it from mylar, even though that is hard on punches. >> >> thanks >> Jim >> >> Using a paper folder to convert roll to fanfold has also been discussed. >>> Nothing has resulted from either discussion. >>> >>> >>> > Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards. > It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper > made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some > subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it. > The machine is called a Carroll Press, the cylindrical printing plates still show up on eBay from time to time. The presses crank out cards at about 800 a minute, they are feed from big rolls of card stock the machine cuts prints and boxes the cards. In the late 80s I was working in the IBM Toronto Lab on the second floor of the old plant on Don Mills Rd. and there was still some Carroll Presses operating in the basement. You could hear the low rumble and feel the vibration on our floor when they where running. Paul. From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 11 16:46:34 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 14:46:34 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> CHM has one, and a collection of printing cylinders http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869 On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards. > It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper > made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some > subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it. > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 11 17:01:23 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:01:23 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> The machine that is used where I'm referring to cuts from a roll about 2 cards wide. The system also has to be able to merge up to four sheets together per form as the real product is for the full size credit card forms that one uses with either NCR paper, or with carbon. They can handle both. they print with offset plates onto the stock, and not with the types of cylinders I've seen. The Holerith card stock was made by taking an actual card, and measuring it and making a die to cut to that size, and scanning the image on the card. not a big difference from the cards that are used in full sized credit card machines. The machine is about 15' or more long, 2' wide and probably 10' high. Multiple stock roll holders can be positioned depending on the number of forms being laminated for the run, so the setup can get pretty large. I don't know how many lines they had, but there were several of the machines. Not sure I've got any photos, any I have were when I had a film camera, quite some time ago if I have any. thanks jim On 11/11/2016 2:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > CHM has one, and a collection of printing cylinders > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869 > > On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > >> Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards. >> It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper >> made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some >> subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it. >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:05:39 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 23:05:39 -0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> Not seen one of those for ages, These days, at least in the UK, Credit Cards seem to come attached to a standard letter with a blob of sticky stuff... Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim > stephens > Sent: 11 November 2016 23:01 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape > > The machine that is used where I'm referring to cuts from a roll about 2 cards > wide. The system also has to be able to merge up to four sheets together > per form as the real product is for the full size credit card forms that one uses > with either NCR paper, or with carbon. They can handle both. > > they print with offset plates onto the stock, and not with the types of > cylinders I've seen. The Holerith card stock was made by taking an actual > card, and measuring it and making a die to cut to that size, and scanning the > image on the card. not a big difference from the cards that are used in full > sized credit card machines. > > The machine is about 15' or more long, 2' wide and probably 10' high. > Multiple stock roll holders can be positioned depending on the number of > forms being laminated for the run, so the setup can get pretty large. > > I don't know how many lines they had, but there were several of the > machines. Not sure I've got any photos, any I have were when I had a film > camera, quite some time ago if I have any. > > thanks > jim > > On 11/11/2016 2:46 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > CHM has one, and a collection of printing cylinders > > > > http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102670869 > > > > On 11/11/16 2:03 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > > > >> Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch > cards. > >> It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of > >> paper made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us > >> know and some subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I > saw it. > >> > > From michael.newton at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:36:53 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:36:53 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love Message-ID: I acquired a working HP Draftmaster RX (HP part # 7596B). An awesome machine, 36" roll feed and 8 pens, complete with several pen carousels, user manual, and hundreds of working pens. I was very excited to make a splash in the art world with this thing. I did get it to perfectly draw a 3 color demo page from the front panel. Thereafter it started displaying errors on the display such as "200" which means it needs "mechanical calibration". Thanks to hpmuseum.net I acquired the service manual , which catalogs many calibrations and self-tests to run from the front panel, including the aforementioned "mechanical calibration". So I power up with the appropriate front panel keys depressed to run this calibration. The paper drive motor starts making noise, but the paper rollers aren't turning, and the LCD display is blank. Since that moment, the LCD display is always blank so it is currently a boat anchor. It's a terribly sad state of affairs. I have basic electronics and mechanical skills and an oscilloscope so following the troubleshooting procedures in the manual I might be able to identify a part to replace. But of course, parts for sale online are are rare, expensive, used and probably untested. Probably better would be lower-level repair of whatever parts are faulty but that's probably more than I can manage at my skill level. I'm in Seattle, WA. Is there anyone alive in the pacific NW who will pay a visit and help me fix this thing? (The only company I found that admits to working on pen plotters is 360tech in Austin, TX.) Or someone elsewhere I could ship electronics parts to for test and repair? Or provide guidance, or help in any form at all? thanks M. From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 17:38:52 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:38:52 -0200 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: How is the power supply? All rails ok? Input/output capacitors not bulged nor leaked? 2016-11-11 21:36 GMT-02:00 Michael Newton : > I acquired a working HP Draftmaster RX (HP part # 7596B). > > An awesome machine, 36" roll feed and 8 pens, complete with several pen > carousels, user manual, and hundreds of working pens. > > I was very excited to make a splash in the art world with this thing. I did > get it to perfectly draw a 3 color demo page from the front panel. > > Thereafter it started displaying errors on the display such as "200" which > means it needs "mechanical calibration". > > Thanks to hpmuseum.net I acquired the service manual > , which catalogs many > calibrations and self-tests to run from the front panel, including the > aforementioned "mechanical calibration". > > So I power up with the appropriate front panel keys depressed to run this > calibration. The paper drive motor starts making noise, but the paper > rollers aren't turning, and the LCD display is blank. > > Since that moment, the LCD display is always blank so it is currently a > boat anchor. > > It's a terribly sad state of affairs. I have basic electronics and > mechanical skills and an oscilloscope so following the troubleshooting > procedures in the manual I might be able to identify a part to replace. But > of course, parts for sale online are are rare, expensive, used and probably > untested. > > Probably better would be lower-level repair of whatever parts are faulty > but that's probably more than I can manage at my skill level. > > I'm in Seattle, WA. Is there anyone alive in the pacific NW who will pay a > visit and help me fix this thing? (The only company I found that admits to > working on pen plotters is 360tech in Austin, TX.) > > Or someone elsewhere I could ship electronics parts to for test and repair? > Or provide guidance, or help in any form at all? > > thanks > M. > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 11 18:16:39 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 16:16:39 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2d10f36c-6938-5f5a-ea60-ffecc90fa217@jwsss.com> On 11/11/2016 3:05 PM, Dave Wade wrote: > Not seen one of those for ages, These days, at least in the UK, Credit Cards seem to come attached to a standard letter with a blob of sticky stuff... > > Dave > Image of manual credit form here: http://www.shipnfast.com/jpgs/2plbigpic.jpg 3-1/4 x 7-7/8 Inches Stock from this site: http://www.elect-mer.com/credit-card-slips/ Hollerith card info (via Wikipedia) Card size is exactly 7 3?8 by 3 1?4 inches (187.325 mm ? 82.55 mm). The cards are made of smooth stock, 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick. There are about 143 cards to the inch (56/cm). Near as I can tell, 100 of the NCR carbonless forms is about an inch, so the thickness of the stock should be close to Hollerith cards. I'm a bit concerned now that the chipless technology is deployed in the US. Many contracts will have pretty significant penalties for swipe and non chip / signature transactions, so the demand for manual backup like this will probably take a significant nosedive, with merchants just declining the business till their machines work, rather than risk a chargeback on a manual form. Thanks jim From steven at malikoff.com Fri Nov 11 19:51:56 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 11:51:56 +1000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: Tom Moss said: > On 11 November 2016 at 15:42, Paul Koning wrote: > >> Is punch tape still made? I would guess so, for old CNC machines >> perhaps. That's typically roll tape, not fanfold. >> > > There's a British supplier that recently had another run made, although > it's on a roll. > http://www.gnt.co.uk/papertape.htm Can the right grade paper be bought on a large roll? If so, suppliers can provide slitting services to cut them into any width required. Or perhaps it could be done at home on roll slitting gadget such as this?: http://www.ebay.com/itm/New-Foil-Paper-Cutter-Slitter-Hot-Foil-Stamping-Roll-Cutting-Machine-Core-0-9-/251488509793 Steve. From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Fri Nov 11 20:45:51 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 03:45:51 +0100 Subject: more on lisp compilers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1478918751.32552.7.camel@agj.net> ons 2016-11-09 klockan 19:52 -0700 skrev Richard Loken: > So last week there was some conversation about lisp compilers and an > expressed interest in old VAX lisp comilers. Co-incidently, I was rooting > through the morgue at work on semi legitimate business and found > VAXlisp 2.2 copyright 1987. Sadly, it is on a TK50 and is the Ultrix > version. > > Since it sparked my interest, I went through the rest of the pile but > no VMS lisp compiler was unearthed. I found o-l-d VAX/VMS ADA, C, basic, > pascal, fortran compilers but no lisp compilers and all on moldering > TK50s lying in wait for any hapless tape drive that may accept them. VAX/VMS A and C, i would definitely take them if i had something where the tapes would be usable (and a bit of handholding while imaging them.) I know about the tapes vitrolic behaviour. From michael.newton at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 22:35:40 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:35:40 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going in. I found test points on the power supply/motor driver board as detailed in Chapter 12 of that manual. +5v, +12v, +15v, +42v and +85v are all there (and all .4v high or so) But there is no -12v. That seems relevant. The capacitors all look OK to the naked eye. Actually diagnosing and repairing electronics is new territory for me, but I suppose this is where I read up, maybe pull that board out, and start testing diodes and caps. Thanks again Alexandre - and if you or anyone else has any clues to narrow it down, please share. M. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > How is the power supply? All rails ok? Input/output capacitors not bulged > nor leaked? > > 2016-11-11 21:36 GMT-02:00 Michael Newton : > > > I acquired a working HP Draftmaster RX (HP part # 7596B). > > > > An awesome machine, 36" roll feed and 8 pens, complete with several pen > > carousels, user manual, and hundreds of working pens. > > > > I was very excited to make a splash in the art world with this thing. I > did > > get it to perfectly draw a 3 color demo page from the front panel. > > > > Thereafter it started displaying errors on the display such as "200" > which > > means it needs "mechanical calibration". > > > > Thanks to hpmuseum.net I acquired the service manual > > , which catalogs many > > calibrations and self-tests to run from the front panel, including the > > aforementioned "mechanical calibration". > > > > So I power up with the appropriate front panel keys depressed to run this > > calibration. The paper drive motor starts making noise, but the paper > > rollers aren't turning, and the LCD display is blank. > > > > Since that moment, the LCD display is always blank so it is currently a > > boat anchor. > > > > It's a terribly sad state of affairs. I have basic electronics and > > mechanical skills and an oscilloscope so following the troubleshooting > > procedures in the manual I might be able to identify a part to replace. > But > > of course, parts for sale online are are rare, expensive, used and > probably > > untested. > > > > Probably better would be lower-level repair of whatever parts are faulty > > but that's probably more than I can manage at my skill level. > > > > I'm in Seattle, WA. Is there anyone alive in the pacific NW who will pay > a > > visit and help me fix this thing? (The only company I found that admits > to > > working on pen plotters is 360tech in Austin, TX.) > > > > Or someone elsewhere I could ship electronics parts to for test and > repair? > > Or provide guidance, or help in any form at all? > > > > thanks > > M. > > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Nov 12 07:33:17 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:33:17 +0100 (CET) Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Al Kossow wrote: >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. >> >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper >> manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right >> specifications. > > This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper > stock to IBM card stock specifications. I think that Hummel in Magstadt still makes punched cards. We had an inquiry a few years ago when we wanted to have cards with our custom logo and layout. I think the price was 40 Euros per box of 2000. Christian From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 07:54:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 13:54:42 -0000 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <03fb01d23cec$521f5820$f65e0860$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian > Corti > Sent: 12 November 2016 13:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Paper tape carriers and paper tape > > On Fri, 11 Nov 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > >>> No one is making new 80 column punched card stock either. > >> > >> No stock, or no cards? I would think that one of the paper > >> manufacturers would be putting out postcard stock of the right > >> specifications. > > > > This has been discussed for several years here. No one is making paper > > stock to IBM card stock specifications. > > I think that Hummel in Magstadt still makes punched cards. We had an > inquiry a few years ago when we wanted to have cards with our custom logo > and layout. I think the price was 40 Euros per box of 2000. > I e-mailed them and got no reply... > Christian From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 12 09:20:42 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 07:20:42 -0800 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <03fb01d23cec$521f5820$f65e0860$@gmail.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <03fb01d23cec$521f5820$f65e0860$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <92649005-2e99-26d8-58f1-370302a07f31@jwsss.com> On 11/12/2016 5:54 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > I e-mailed them and got no reply... > >> >Christian Maybe if more people email, we might make them think there is a market. http://www.hummel-print.com looks like their main business from the web site is printing boarding pass stock, which be a little light for Hollerith cards, but certainly the size isn't a stretch. Ralf Kunkel is director of marketing, sales. rkunkel at hummel-print.com Thanks Jim From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 10:31:44 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 17:31:44 +0100 Subject: Alps key switches. Message-ID: I found Alps key switches at a small Swedish electronic surplus seller. The resembled some switches I have seen before so I took a chance and bought some. The price was the equivalent of 2 USD for ten switches. I took a few photos in case someone could identify them: http://i.imgur.com/L5agnfc.jpg Could be interesting to know if they are used in some known machine. The part number might be 58990003 and 58990002 which was the number mentioned in the catalogue. The company selling them is Belganet Data Elektronik and their catalogue is at: http://www.bde.se/skat11_1.pdf /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 12 10:48:10 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 08:48:10 -0800 Subject: Alps key switches. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3f9eff9b-f4b5-75e0-adcd-56bd38a241d7@bitsavers.org> https://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:Alps_switches you should let Daniel Beardsmore know about these. They don't look like anything I've seen before On 11/12/16 8:31 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found Alps key switches at a small Swedish electronic surplus seller. The > resembled some switches I have seen before so I took a chance and bought > some. The price was the equivalent of 2 USD for ten switches. > > I took a few photos in case someone could identify them: > > http://i.imgur.com/L5agnfc.jpg > > Could be interesting to know if they are used in some known machine. > > The part number might be 58990003 and 58990002 which was the number > mentioned in the catalogue. > > The company selling them is Belganet Data Elektronik and their catalogue is > at: > > http://www.bde.se/skat11_1.pdf > > /Mattis > From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 11:15:37 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:15:37 -0500 Subject: Alps key switches. In-Reply-To: <3f9eff9b-f4b5-75e0-adcd-56bd38a241d7@bitsavers.org> References: <3f9eff9b-f4b5-75e0-adcd-56bd38a241d7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I asked Daniel. He pointed me to this: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKFF_series These are Alps SKFF series switches. At first glance, I through they were a strange version of the SKCC series here: https://deskthority.net/wiki/Alps_SKCC_series I knew he would know for sure. Santo On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 11:48 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > https://deskthority.net/wiki/Category:Alps_switches > > you should let Daniel Beardsmore know about these. They don't look like > anything I've seen before > > On 11/12/16 8:31 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > I found Alps key switches at a small Swedish electronic surplus seller. > The > > resembled some switches I have seen before so I took a chance and bought > > some. The price was the equivalent of 2 USD for ten switches. > > > > I took a few photos in case someone could identify them: > > > > http://i.imgur.com/L5agnfc.jpg > > > > Could be interesting to know if they are used in some known machine. > > > > The part number might be 58990003 and 58990002 which was the number > > mentioned in the catalogue. > > > > The company selling them is Belganet Data Elektronik and their catalogue > is > > at: > > > > http://www.bde.se/skat11_1.pdf > > > > /Mattis > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 12 13:24:00 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:24:00 -0500 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <2d10f36c-6938-5f5a-ea60-ffecc90fa217@jwsss.com> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> <2d10f36c-6938-5f5a-ea60-ffecc90fa217@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <1DEAE0FF-1252-4296-89A4-7679B21CD3CE@comcast.net> > On Nov 11, 2016, at 7:16 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > ... > Hollerith card info (via Wikipedia) > > Card size is exactly 7 3?8 by 3 1?4 inches (187.325 mm ? 82.55 mm). The cards are made > of smooth stock, 0.007 inches (180 ?m) thick. There are about 143 cards to > the inch (56/cm). I found another description of the specs in an old card reader/punch peripheral manual. It also lists weight (0.534 lbs per 100 cards). It gives tolerances (length +/- 0.005 inch, width +0.007, -0.003, angle between the sides 90 degrees +/- 5 minutes, sides straight +/- 0.003 inches). And, very interesting, it mentions that the orientation of the paper fibers shall be parallel to the long side. There are lots of paper manufacturers and lots of grades and thickness of paper. The thickness we're talking about is one that shows up in a couple I looked at. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if suitable paper could be had. The matter of cutting it to the correct shape is a different issue, admittedly. paul From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 16:59:51 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:59:51 -0600 Subject: Old Epson printers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58279EE7.5070107@gmail.com> On 11/09/2016 11:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > Incidentally I am looking for any manuals for the HI-80. Did I send you scans at one point? Perhaps that was someone else... One of these days I'll revisit making some pens for mine (the originals* had dried up, of course) - I remember doing some experimentation, but it was difficult to find anything that would flow correctly (the mechanism doesn't apply as much pressure as a good old mk1 hand naturally would). * I think replacements were/are available, but expensive, and it didn't seem sensible to throw money at something which might be useless again by the next time I want to use it. cheers Jules From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Nov 12 16:16:47 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 14:16:47 -0800 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar Message-ID: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for 1993, the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned so folks can download it. It can be found at: http://wildwestrally.org/afp/IMG_20161110_0001.pdf. Enjoy, alan From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 17:14:31 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:14:31 +0000 Subject: Old Epson printers In-Reply-To: <58279EE7.5070107@gmail.com> References: <58279EE7.5070107@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 11/09/2016 11:27 PM, Tony Duell wrote: >> >> Incidentally I am looking for any manuals for the HI-80. > > > Did I send you scans at one point? Perhaps that was someone else... > Not that I remember. I certainly can't find them if you did. > One of these days I'll revisit making some pens for mine (the originals* had > dried up, of course) - I remember doing some experimentation, but it was > difficult to find anything that would flow correctly (the mechanism doesn't > apply as much pressure as a good old mk1 hand naturally would). Yes. That is also a problem with mine. I must take the carriage apart and see just what the pens are like. I remember them being quite large in diameter. -tony From johnl at johnlabovitz.com Sat Nov 12 22:09:03 2016 From: johnl at johnlabovitz.com (John Labovitz) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 23:09:03 -0500 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: <1DEAE0FF-1252-4296-89A4-7679B21CD3CE@comcast.net> References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> <6dd4b953-713b-ed57-51fd-e3f74dd53a1f@bitsavers.org> <7e869783-7628-5a0d-2a18-5a1bf790ef29@jwsss.com> <00a401d23c70$1f4c1810$5de44830$@gmail.com> <2d10f36c-6938-5f5a-ea60-ffecc90fa217@jwsss.com> <1DEAE0FF-1252-4296-89A4-7679B21CD3CE@comcast.net> Message-ID: <8153D8B2-A5BE-4798-AF71-BCEEC0931659@johnlabovitz.com> On Nov 12, 2016, at 2:24 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > There are lots of paper manufacturers and lots of grades and thickness of paper. The thickness we're talking about is one that shows up in a couple I looked at. So it wouldn't surprise me at all if suitable paper could be had. The matter of cutting it to the correct shape is a different issue, admittedly. It may not be all that difficult. Perhaps the right method here is a die-cut, a common method for doing custom cuts of paper ? often far more complicated than punch cards. The basic idea is that you build a form up with steel rules that define the edges you want cut. These rules essentially act as a blade. Then you mount this on a press, and run through a stack of paper as if you?re printing, but in fact you?re just cutting. Here?s a basic overview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1NKLPYS0Vo A few years back, while photographing letterpress printers (see http://johnlabovitz.com/projects/letterpress), I met a fellow (Rob Barnes) in Denver who specializes in die-cutting. Like most die-cut operators, he uses mid-20th century Heidelberg letterpress printing presses. I have no idea if he?s interested in a retro-punch card project, but it might be worth contacting him. http://www.vintagepressworks.com Frankly, I think the harder task is to find a good stock of appropriate paper. Best, ?John From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 09:52:47 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 15:52:47 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: , <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net>, Message-ID: I've started a new thread. See: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54850-Debugging-a-KIM-1-computer I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the KIM's expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find out what is failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar part, the 6532 that is similar, without ROM. It can be used with an adapter. I've reviewed both specifications and believe I've figured out how to do it. Others have made them that are configured for the Gottlieb pinball machines but they will not work for the KIM because the KIM selects are configured differently. I've begun making a hand wired adapter with a EEPROM. This will be in a stacked socket under the 6532. I expect to use the debug board to program it in place. After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for the debug and 6532 adapter. I know there are a number of dead KIM-1s out there. I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a set of boards? I'm thinking in the range of $10 to $20 someplace, depending on volume. I expect to have two small boards for each adapter and one for the debug board. I'll most likely have them made as a set to save cost. I can populate the adapter boards with the SOIC parts and leave the rest to the person buying the boards. Please let me know how many people would be interested?? Dwight Dwight Debugging a KIM-1 computer www.vcfed.org This is a discussion forum about vintage computer collecting, use, restoration and display powered by vBulletin. To find out about vBulletin, go to http://www.vbulletin.com/ . ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 6:19:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool I still need to post the final schematic. A new thread might be a good idea. I wanted to keep the board as simple as possible so one could just wire wrap or point to point it. It only has a 7474, 7402 and a 7404 as well as the EPROM. It could easily be done with a GAL or PAL and the EPROM. I think two schematics showing each would be best. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ali Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 10:25:16 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: KIM-1 Debugging tool > I've been making a debugging ROM board to test out the various > > parts of the KIM-1. It is based on taking over the KIM at reset > > and running test. > > So far I've got two test working. One is a basic, is it running test > > that just blinks a light on the debug board. > > The next is a test of the first 1K of RAM. > > A little tricky to do without RAM. > > I expect to write some more for the RRIOT ics. > > If anyone has interest, they can follow me on the Vintage > > Computer Forum or contact me here. > > The board has 3 ttl ICs, a 2764/27128 EPROM, a couple > > LEDs and a dip switch. Also a few pullup resistors and capacitors. > > Dwight Dwight, That is a pretty cool project. May I suggest you break it out on VCF into its own thread so people can more easily follow what is going on? For those interested in the original thread: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52155-KIM-1-No-Action/ KIM-1 No Action www.vcfed.org This is a discussion forum about vintage computer collecting, use, restoration and display powered by vBulletin. To find out about vBulletin, go to http://www.vbulletin.com/ . -Ali From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 10:10:10 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 11:10:10 -0500 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> Message-ID: Count me in for one set of boards. On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:52 AM, dwight wrote: > > I've started a new thread. > > See: > > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?54850-Debugging-a-KIM-1-computer > > > I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the KIM's > expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find out what is > failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. > > While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, > these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar part, the > 6532 that is similar, without ROM. > > It can be used with an adapter. I've reviewed both specifications and > believe I've figured out how to do it. Others have made them that are > configured for the Gottlieb pinball machines but they will not work for the > KIM because the KIM selects are configured differently. > > I've begun making a hand wired adapter with a EEPROM. This will be in a > stacked socket under the 6532. I expect to use the debug board to program > it in place. > > After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for the > debug and 6532 adapter. > > I know there are a number of dead KIM-1s out there. > > I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a set of > boards? I'm thinking in the range of $10 to $20 someplace, depending on > volume. I expect to have two small boards for each adapter and one for the > debug board. I'll most likely have them made as a set to save cost. > > I can populate the adapter boards with the SOIC parts and leave the rest > to the person buying the boards. > > Please let me know how many people would be interested?? > > Dwight > > > > Dwight > > > Debugging a KIM-1 computer forum/showthread.php?54850-Debugging-a-KIM-1-computer> > www.vcfed.org > This is a discussion forum about vintage computer collecting, use, > restoration and display powered by vBulletin. To find out about vBulletin, > go to http://www.vbulletin.com/ . > > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of dwight < > dkelvey at hotmail.com> > Sent: Monday, November 7, 2016 6:19:25 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool > > I still need to post the final schematic. A new thread might be a good > > idea. > > I wanted to keep the board as simple as possible so one could just > > wire wrap or point to point it. > > It only has a 7474, 7402 and a 7404 as well as the EPROM. > > It could easily be done with a GAL or PAL and the EPROM. > > I think two schematics showing each would be best. > > Dwight > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ali < > cctalk at ibm51xx.net> > Sent: Sunday, November 6, 2016 10:25:16 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: KIM-1 Debugging tool > > > I've been making a debugging ROM board to test out the various > > > > parts of the KIM-1. It is based on taking over the KIM at reset > > > > and running test. > > > > So far I've got two test working. One is a basic, is it running test > > > > that just blinks a light on the debug board. > > > > The next is a test of the first 1K of RAM. > > > > A little tricky to do without RAM. > > > > I expect to write some more for the RRIOT ics. > > > > If anyone has interest, they can follow me on the Vintage > > > > Computer Forum or contact me here. > > > > The board has 3 ttl ICs, a 2764/27128 EPROM, a couple > > > > LEDs and a dip switch. Also a few pullup resistors and capacitors. > > > > Dwight > > > Dwight, > > That is a pretty cool project. May I suggest you break it out on VCF into > its own thread so people can more easily follow what is going on? For those > interested in the original thread: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?52155-KIM-1-No-Action/ > KIM-1 No Action KIM-1-No-Action/> > www.vcfed.org > This is a discussion forum about vintage computer collecting, use, > restoration and display powered by vBulletin. To find out about vBulletin, > go to http://www.vbulletin.com/ . > > > > > -Ali > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Nov 13 11:10:07 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 17:10:07 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> Message-ID: On 13/11/2016 15:52, dwight wrote: > I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the > KIM's expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find > out what is failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. > > While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, > these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar > part, the 6532 that is similar, without ROM. > After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for > the debug and 6532 adapter. > I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a > set of boards? Count me in, please. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 13 12:12:07 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:12:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: from dwight at "Nov 13, 16 03:52:47 pm" Message-ID: <201611131812.uADIC76e11993428@floodgap.com> > While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, these > are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar part, the 6532 > that is similar, without ROM. > I've begun making a hand wired adapter with a EEPROM. This will be in a > stacked socket under the 6532. I expect to use the debug board to program it > in place. > After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for the debug > and 6532 adapter. > I know there are a number of dead KIM-1s out there. > I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a set of > boards? I'm thinking in the range of $10 to $20 someplace, depending on > volume. I'd be interested, though I'd prefer something that was a drop-in replacement. I'd be willing to pay additional for that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I put the fun in funeral. -------------------------------------------------- From ryan at hack.net Sun Nov 13 12:14:13 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:14:13 -0600 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: <201611131812.uADIC76e11993428@floodgap.com> References: <201611131812.uADIC76e11993428@floodgap.com> Message-ID: On 11/13/16 12:12 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: >> While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, these >> are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar part, the 6532 >> that is similar, without ROM. >> I've begun making a hand wired adapter with a EEPROM. This will be in a >> stacked socket under the 6532. I expect to use the debug board to program it >> in place. >> After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for the debug >> and 6532 adapter. >> I know there are a number of dead KIM-1s out there. >> I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a set of >> boards? I'm thinking in the range of $10 to $20 someplace, depending on >> volume. > I'd be interested, though I'd prefer something that was a drop-in replacement. > I'd be willing to pay additional for that. > Same here. I have a dead KIM because of a bad 6530. From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Nov 13 12:46:24 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 10:46:24 -0800 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: , <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net>, Message-ID: <005a01d23dde$3cd6cd70$b6846850$@net> > I can populate the adapter boards with the SOIC parts and leave the > rest to the person buying the boards. > > Please let me know how many people would be interested?? > > Dwight > > > > Dwight Dwight, Please put me down for one! Ali From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 13 13:55:47 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 19:55:47 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: <201611131812.uADIC76e11993428@floodgap.com> References: from dwight at "Nov 13, 16 03:52:47 pm",<201611131812.uADIC76e11993428@floodgap.com> Message-ID: This will be about as close to drop in as one can get. The adapter will hide under the 6532 with very little hanging out the sides. Unlike the adapter for the Gottlieb pins. It'll be about 1/3 taller other than originally. I doubt you'll find any originals, other than on another KIM-1. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Cameron Kaiser Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:12:07 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool > While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, these > are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar part, the 6532 > that is similar, without ROM. > I've begun making a hand wired adapter with a EEPROM. This will be in a > stacked socket under the 6532. I expect to use the debug board to program it > in place. > After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for the debug > and 6532 adapter. > I know there are a number of dead KIM-1s out there. > I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a set of > boards? I'm thinking in the range of $10 to $20 someplace, depending on > volume. I'd be interested, though I'd prefer something that was a drop-in replacement. I'd be willing to pay additional for that. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I put the fun in funeral. -------------------------------------------------- From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Sun Nov 13 14:54:35 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 12:54:35 -0800 Subject: TEST - PLEASE IGNORE In-Reply-To: References: , <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net>, Message-ID: <005b01d23df0$24e1aa20$6ea4fe60$@net> TEST POST. From tomjmoss at googlemail.com Sun Nov 13 15:48:41 2016 From: tomjmoss at googlemail.com (Tom Moss) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:48:41 +0000 Subject: Wanted: RL02 terminator Message-ID: Hi All, I've just picked up an 11/53 with an RL02, but there's no terminator. Does anyone have one for sale? (or trade perhaps?) Regards, -Tom From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 13 22:01:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:01:52 -0800 Subject: HP-150 tech manual up now on bitsavers Message-ID: The person working on Integral PC emulation in MAME asked for it, so it's up now under pdf/hp/hp150 Unfortunately, what he was looking for was info on the graphics ASIC, which isn't really talked about at all :-( From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 13 22:06:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:06:08 -0800 Subject: Fwd: TSC UniFLEX 68k In-Reply-To: <73feca07-fb78-169d-e795-b4fc39cb34d1@bitsavers.org> References: <73feca07-fb78-169d-e795-b4fc39cb34d1@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <96d5da93-a844-d0c4-aa87-301513ff2ea5@bitsavers.org> seeing if 'x'x'x' is tripping the list profanity filter -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: TSC UniFLEX 68xxx Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:38:38 -0800 From: Al Kossow To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts I wanted to see if anyone has any more information or software distribution disks than what I just put up on bitsavers under tsc and gimix. I have a hard disk image for the GMX Micro-20 that I just bought on eBay, but no distribution floppies. I didn't realize that the 68K version was so uncommon, since the 6809 version seems to be everywhere. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 22:21:11 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 20:21:11 -0800 Subject: TSC UniFLEX 68k In-Reply-To: <96d5da93-a844-d0c4-aa87-301513ff2ea5@bitsavers.org> References: <73feca07-fb78-169d-e795-b4fc39cb34d1@bitsavers.org> <96d5da93-a844-d0c4-aa87-301513ff2ea5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 8:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > seeing if 'x'x'x' is tripping the list profanity filter > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: TSC UniFLEX 68xxx > Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 12:38:38 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > I wanted to see if anyone has any more information or software distribution disks > than what I just put up on bitsavers under tsc and gimix. I have a hard disk image > for the GMX Micro-20 that I just bought on eBay, but no distribution floppies. > This one? Looked like an interesting system. Something I had never seen before. Glad I didn't also bid it up if you ended up with it. http://www.ebay.com/itm/222297883938 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 13 23:07:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:07:08 -0800 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before Message-ID: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> I did not go back thru the list for the prior discussion of this, but found this pile listed again, local pickup in Austin. IIRC, the seller was a flake listing and relisting it a number of times. This time the Buy it Now price id $999 Local Pickup Austin MUSEUM-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-LOT-COLLECTION-FLOPPY-APPLE-NORTHSTAR-IBM-TI-XEROX-TEJAS/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/3617774590138 From imp at bsdimp.com Sun Nov 13 23:09:53 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:09:53 -0700 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> Message-ID: That was fast, it's already gone... Warner On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:07 PM, jim stephens wrote: > I did not go back thru the list for the prior discussion of this, but found > this pile listed again, local pickup in Austin. IIRC, the seller was a > flake listing and relisting it a number of times. This time the Buy it Now > price id $999 > > Local Pickup Austin > > MUSEUM-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-LOT-COLLECTION-FLOPPY-APPLE-NORTHSTAR-IBM-TI-XEROX-TEJAS/ > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/3617774590138 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 13 23:59:18 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 21:59:18 -0800 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <99b2a272-a950-7655-a752-94893c22b605@jwsss.com> On 11/13/2016 9:09 PM, Warner Losh wrote: > That was fast, it's already gone... > > Warner I bungled the edit of the link, sorry /MUSEUM-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-LOT-COLLECTION-FLOPPY-APPLE-NORTHSTAR-IBM-TI-XEROX-TEJAS http://www.ebay.com/itm/361777459013 > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:07 PM, jim stephens wrote: >> I did not go back thru the list for the prior discussion of this, but found >> this pile listed again, local pickup in Austin. IIRC, the seller was a >> flake listing and relisting it a number of times. This time the Buy it Now >> price id $999 >> >> Local Pickup Austin >> >> MUSEUM-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-LOT-COLLECTION-FLOPPY-APPLE-NORTHSTAR-IBM-TI-XEROX-TEJAS/ >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/3617774590138 > From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 14 00:29:09 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 00:29:09 -0600 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: <99b2a272-a950-7655-a752-94893c22b605@jwsss.com> References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> <99b2a272-a950-7655-a752-94893c22b605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161114062909.GB7834@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 09:59:18PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/361777459013 Looks like all the other seller's items are high by a factor of 10 as well :-) Too bad. I would have given the Motorola a home. Maybe even those Sun 4/110s out of nostalgia. mcl From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 14 00:52:46 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 22:52:46 -0800 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: <20161114062909.GB7834@lonesome.com> References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> <99b2a272-a950-7655-a752-94893c22b605@jwsss.com> <20161114062909.GB7834@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:29 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 09:59:18PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/361777459013 > > Looks like all the other seller's items are high by a factor of 10 > as well :-) > > Too bad. I would have given the Motorola a home. Maybe even those > Sun 4/110s out of nostalgia. > > mcl > There are a few things I'd like from that list as well, but (a) I'm not going to Austin to get it and (b) tuition will be due soon. :-) And frankly, the stuff looks filthy - you have to wonder what it looks like inside. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From linimon at lonesome.com Mon Nov 14 01:53:27 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 01:53:27 -0600 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> <99b2a272-a950-7655-a752-94893c22b605@jwsss.com> <20161114062909.GB7834@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20161114075327.GA8000@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 10:52:46PM -0800, Ian S. King wrote: > There are a few things I'd like from that list as well, but (a) I'm not > going to Austin to get it I'm in Austin and I'm not going across town to get it :-) Frankly I already have some stuff that looks in better shape than that, out in my shop. mcl From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 14 07:52:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:52:43 -0800 Subject: TSC UniFLEX 68k In-Reply-To: References: <73feca07-fb78-169d-e795-b4fc39cb34d1@bitsavers.org> <96d5da93-a844-d0c4-aa87-301513ff2ea5@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1a5e89d0-bbcf-cb80-96d6-fd2ddfca1b3a@bitsavers.org> On 11/13/16 8:21 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > This one? Looked like an interesting system. Something I had never > seen before. Glad I didn't also bid it up if you ended up with it. > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/222297883938 > That's it. Working with the MAME folks right now to get it simulated. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 14 07:57:57 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 05:57:57 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 Message-ID: I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape boards starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate fw proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare it to the one used on the S1420 From rp at servium.ch Mon Nov 14 17:33:17 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 00:33:17 +0100 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 Message-ID: Hi all I'm trying to resurrect my NCD19 for vcfe.ch but I can't find the firmware for it (I have half a dozen different versions of NCDware, but most don't contain the boot images, and none have the binary for the ncd19, only ncd15b, ncd19r, ncd19c etc. which don't work). And all links I find on the internet are dead ;( I appreciate any help tracking that down. Rico From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Nov 14 17:53:07 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 15:53:07 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 14, 2016, at 05:57, Al Kossow wrote: > > I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape boards > starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate fw > proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare it to > the one used on the S1420 I think I have an S1410 with 104521F. Do you have that one already? -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From silent700 at gmail.com Mon Nov 14 23:37:49 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 23:37:49 -0600 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar In-Reply-To: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> References: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for 1993, > the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may > fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned so I don't get all the jokes but this is a nice piece of history from that period. I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of cleaning up the scan a bit (trimmed, de-skewed, mainly) and posted it here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MtXinu Thanks for doing the scan! -j From guy at cuillin.org.uk Tue Nov 15 08:04:30 2016 From: guy at cuillin.org.uk (Guy Dawson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:04:30 +0000 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar In-Reply-To: References: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: Sweet and it's good for 2021. On 15 November 2016 at 05:37, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > > In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for > 1993, > > the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may > > fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned so > > I don't get all the jokes but this is a nice piece of history from > that period. I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of cleaning up > the scan a bit (trimmed, de-skewed, mainly) and posted it here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MtXinu > > Thanks for doing the scan! > > -j > -- 4.4 > 5.4 From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 15 08:26:06 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:26:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer Message-ID: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> This is listed under the informative title "vintage computer": http://www.ebay.com/itm/291934825422 which leads me to post it here under a more informative title, hoping that someone here has a soft spot for Primes! Noel From drb at msu.edu Tue Nov 15 08:34:43 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:34:43 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: (Your message of Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:26:06 -0500.) <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > This is listed under the informative title "vintage computer": > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291934825422 > which leads me to post it here under a more informative title, hoping > that someone here has a soft spot for Primes! More specifically, it's a 2250. It's a pretty minimal configuration. A list member has been trying to ask the seller questions, but getting no responses. The listed shipping cost seems a bit unrealistic. De From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 15 08:55:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 06:55:49 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: yes, thanks. I have pictures up now for the S1401 and S1420, still need to do S1410 and S1410A On 11/14/16 3:53 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > >> On Nov 14, 2016, at 05:57, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape boards >> starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate fw >> proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare it to >> the one used on the S1420 > > I think I have an S1410 with 104521F. Do you have that one already? > > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 15 08:56:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 06:56:29 -0800 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you turn up NCD info, I'd like to add it to bitsavers. On 11/14/16 3:33 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > Hi all > > I'm trying to resurrect my NCD19 for vcfe.ch but I can't find the firmware > for it (I have half a dozen different versions of NCDware, but most don't > contain the boot images, and none have the binary for the ncd19, only > ncd15b, ncd19r, ncd19c etc. which don't work). And all links I find on the > internet are dead ;( > > I appreciate any help tracking that down. > > Rico > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 09:18:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:18:26 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > This is listed under the informative title "vintage computer": > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291934825422 > > > which leads me to post it here under a more informative title, hoping > > that someone here has a soft spot for Primes! > > More specifically, it's a 2250. It's a pretty minimal configuration. A > list member has been trying to ask the seller questions, but getting no > responses. The listed shipping cost seems a bit unrealistic. > > De > Yah, I saw it too, but it's got rust and it has been in Alaska for who knows how long stored who knows where by someone who does not even know what it is. Maybe someone in Alaska can grab it. Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 15 09:30:25 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:30:25 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> I want it, and was planning on buying it. I have an identical 2250 (mine has a side cabinet with cipher 880 in it too). They are rare as hens teeth, so at the very least I'm desperate to get it for a backup cpu and memory boardset. But.... If you look closely at the pictures, it has been moused more than a little bit. Not a huge problem, I'm used to that ;) You can tell there is substantial rust on the cabinet, almost makes me think salt water/sea air was around. I have sent the seller 3 emails asking questions about it - and have not gotten a single response. This makes me wary. He lists shipping as USPS... I don't think USPS will ship something like that. I thought USPS had a limit of like 50# or somesuch. The shipping cost says $250, varies by location, but if you put in different zip codes it remains $250. Obviously I'd be concerned about how its packed/crated... and with no word from the seller, leaves me concerned. So long story short, I want it and was prepared to buy it - but with no response from the seller I'm concerned it would never arrive. J -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william degnan Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2016 9:18 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Dennis Boone wrote: > > This is listed under the informative title "vintage computer": > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/291934825422 > > > which leads me to post it here under a more informative title, > hoping > that someone here has a soft spot for Primes! > > More specifically, it's a 2250. It's a pretty minimal configuration. > A list member has been trying to ask the seller questions, but getting > no responses. The listed shipping cost seems a bit unrealistic. > > De > Yah, I saw it too, but it's got rust and it has been in Alaska for who knows how long stored who knows where by someone who does not even know what it is. Maybe someone in Alaska can grab it. Bill From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 15 09:31:22 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 09:31:22 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000301d23f55$521b0c00$f6512400$@classiccmp.org> And yes... I have a soft spot for primes ;) J From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 15 10:15:54 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:15:54 +0100 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I don't think I have any real documentation, just various NCDWare releases ranging from 3.5 to 5.1. But I'll check. But I have stupidly misplaced my copy of 3.2.1 (the last version to support the NCD19...). Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? I just need the firmware for the terminal, the host software is completely optional for my purpose. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 3:56 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If you turn up NCD info, I'd like to add it to bitsavers. > > On 11/14/16 3:33 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > > Hi all > > > > I'm trying to resurrect my NCD19 for vcfe.ch but I can't find the > firmware > > for it (I have half a dozen different versions of NCDware, but most don't > > contain the boot images, and none have the binary for the ncd19, only > > ncd15b, ncd19r, ncd19c etc. which don't work). And all links I find on > the > > internet are dead ;( > > > > I appreciate any help tracking that down. > > > > Rico > > > > From echristopherson at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 10:19:55 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:19:55 -0600 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar In-Reply-To: References: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 8:04 AM, Guy Dawson wrote: > Sweet and it's good for 2021. > > > On 15 November 2016 at 05:37, Jason T wrote: > > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Alan Perry > wrote: > > > In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for > > 1993, > > > the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may > > > fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned > so > > > > I don't get all the jokes but this is a nice piece of history from > > that period. I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of cleaning up > > the scan a bit (trimmed, de-skewed, mainly) and posted it here: > > > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MtXinu > Indeed. I didn't realize the Barbie "Math class is tough" quote was from that long ago! (Well, to me it feels like long ago...) -- Eric Christopherson From js at cimmeri.com Tue Nov 15 10:29:39 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 11:29:39 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> On 11/15/2016 10:30 AM, Jay West wrote: > I want it, and was planning on buying it. > > ... > > I have sent the seller 3 emails asking questions about it - and have not gotten a single response. This makes me wary. > > ... > > So long story short, I want it and was prepared to buy it - but with no response from the seller I'm concerned it would never arrive. > > J You did see that it's in ALASKA, and that the seller is a total newbie at only 24 ratings, right? Plus that ad description -- it always amazes me how few sentences some sellers think is acceptable informational advertising. No way would I buy anything from that seller, unless I just didn't mind chancing whether it ever showed up or not. - J. From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 15 10:58:58 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:58:58 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> Js wrote... ----- You did see that it's in ALASKA, and that the seller is a total newbie at only 24 ratings, right? Plus that ad description -- it always amazes me how few sentences some sellers think is acceptable informational advertising. No way would I buy anything from that seller, unless I just didn't mind chancing whether it ever showed up or not. ----- Yep, saw all those items clearly. Not my first rodeo. But given how the chances of another 2250 cpu set and memory set showing up ever again are effectively zero.... yeah, I'm considering gambling the $500. J From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 11:02:59 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:02:59 -0500 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? I just need the firmware for the > terminal, the host software is completely optional for my purpose. I was asking about NCD software just last month, for a Tektronix X221CHT / XP221 I got no answers. I found all the dead links. -ethan From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 15 11:22:25 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 18:22:25 +0100 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 6:02 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 11:15 AM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > > Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? I just need the firmware for > the > > terminal, the host software is completely optional for my purpose. > > I was asking about NCD software just last month, for a Tektronix X221CHT / > XP221 > > I got no answers. I found all the dead links. > Sorry I missed that thread. I might have some XP2xx stuff, I'll check when I'm home. From js at cimmeri.com Tue Nov 15 11:24:15 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:24:15 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> On 11/15/2016 11:58 AM, Jay West wrote: > Js wrote... > ----- > You did see that it's in ALASKA, and > that the seller is a total newbie at > only 24 ratings, right? Plus that ad > description -- it always amazes me how > few sentences some sellers think is > acceptable informational advertising. > > No way would I buy anything from that > seller, unless I just didn't mind > chancing whether it ever showed up or not. > > ----- > Yep, saw all those items clearly. Not my first rodeo. But given how the chances of another 2250 cpu set and memory set showing up ever again are effectively zero.... yeah, I'm considering gambling the $500. > > J I agree with you there. The seller might just need a lot of hand-holding, and you might just be able to pull it off with a lot of patience. He'll probably wake up once the item is bought. - J. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 12:15:36 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 19:15:36 +0100 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. Message-ID: One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. It might be common for other Tek equipment. Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Nov 15 13:11:21 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:11:21 -0500 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <350B5873-E000-4D11-9B95-1E6AA5D56773@comcast.net> > On Nov 15, 2016, at 1:15 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. > > It might be common for other Tek equipment. > > Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. > > Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: > > http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg That's fairly conventional PCB mounted electrolytic. Do you need it PCB mounted? Does it need all those legs to keep it in place? A search on Digikey turns up hundreds of can type electrolytics, about 300 in the 30-50V range at 10,000 uF. I looked for "snap in", they look pretty similar though the precise footprint is not quite the same. Or you might use one with wires, and bend them to fit the existing holes. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 13:24:28 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:24:28 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: A lot of antique radio restorers prefer to cut open the can near the base, remove the innards, and replace it with a modern (much smaller) capacitor. Gluing it back together and polishing it up can make it look pretty close to original. Here's a pretty good write-up: http://www.faultlineaudio.net/the-work-bench/2013/1/15/restuffing-a-multi-section-can-capacitor.html Kyle From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 13:25:53 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:25:53 -0700 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <6BDDEEB3-EEC7-4CFF-B265-2F439E774AF2@gmail.com> Mattis, On travel right now, but when I'm back next week I can see if our local shop (Anchor) has an exact replacement, I have had good luck there. If not of course a hack with a modern cap will do. Marc > On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. > > It might be common for other Tek equipment. > > Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. > > Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: > > http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 13:25:59 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:25:59 -0700 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 6:57 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape > boards > starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate > fw > proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare > it to > the one used on the S1420 > Although they're not SASI or SCSI, while you're collecting such things, it might also be nice to collect firmware from WD1000-nn and WD1001-nn (numeric suffix) disk controllers with the 50-pin general-purpose host interface, and which use the 8X300 or 8X305 processor with bipolar PROMs. Some OEMs did use the WD 8X300/305 design with customized host interfacing, including Radio Shack and Fortune. The later WD100n-xx[n] (alphanumeric suffix) controllers for IBM PC and AT buses use the WD1010 or WD2010 controller chips rather than an 8x300/305 processor, so they don't really have the same kind of firmware to be dumped as the earlier controllers. Some of them do use a mask-programmed 8052, numbered WD1017. From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 13:37:15 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:37:15 -0700 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Great link! That's a great middle ground - preserves the look without having to find the original cap. Marc > On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. > > It might be common for other Tek equipment. > > Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. > > Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: > > http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 15 13:42:16 2016 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:42:16 +0100 Subject: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi, Some 20 years ago I briefly had some NCD16's and found some of the tarred images and software from those days. Hopefully it survived the various media transfers. Fred Jan From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 15 13:44:00 2016 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:44:00 +0100 Subject: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> Forgot the URL: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/NCD/ -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:42:16 +0100 From: Fred Jan Kraan To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Hi, Some 20 years ago I briefly had some NCD16's and found some of the tarred images and software from those days. Hopefully it survived the various media transfers. Fred Jan From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 15 14:06:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:06:21 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/15/16 11:25 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Although they're not SASI or SCSI, while you're collecting such things, it > might also be nice to collect firmware from WD1000-nn and WD1001-nn > (numeric suffix) disk controllers with the 50-pin general-purpose host > interface, and which use the 8X300 or 8X305 processor with bipolar PROMs. > The two WD machines that used these that I can think of were in the Kaypro 10 and one of the TRS-80s, maybe the Xerox 820-II? Maybe others would be willing to help with this. I have dumped the 8x30x roms from the VME-10, MVME320, Xerox 6085 and a couple of Multibus ones. Oh.. and SMS, of course. From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 15 14:07:10 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:07:10 -0800 Subject: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> References: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <3cf12486-500d-041c-73aa-26d0f0e96d3a@bitsavers.org> permission denied On 11/15/16 11:44 AM, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > > Forgot the URL: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/NCD/ > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:42:16 +0100 > From: Fred Jan Kraan > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hi, > > Some 20 years ago I briefly had some NCD16's and found some of the tarred images and software from those days. Hopefully > it survived the various media transfers. > > > Fred Jan From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 15 14:18:32 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:18:32 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001101d23f7d$6f92f6d0$4eb8e470$@classiccmp.org> Kyle wrote... --------- Here's a pretty good write-up: http://www.faultlineaudio.net/the-work-bench/2013/1/15/restuffing-a-multi-section-can-capacitor.html ---------- Great idea. May give that a shot... unless we can get a group buy to have TU-56 motor run caps built...... J From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:29:01 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:29:01 +0100 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: tisdag 15 november 2016 skrev Kyle Owen : > A lot of antique radio restorers prefer to cut open the can near the base, > remove the innards, and replace it with a modern (much smaller) capacitor. > Gluing it back together and polishing it up can make it look pretty close > to original. > > Here's a pretty good write-up: > http://www.faultlineaudio.net/the-work-bench/2013/1/15/ > restuffing-a-multi-section-can-capacitor.html This was a really good description on how to do it. I will look into this method unless I find something else. I maybe wasn't clear on that I already replaced the cap with a few simple leaded types. It was not such a good fit mechanically so although I am not fanatic of preserving the innards of the machine it would very good to have cap with the original type of pin layout. /Mattis > Kyle > From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Tue Nov 15 14:32:37 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 12:32:37 -0800 Subject: NCD Explora Pro (was Re: NCD19 / Xncd19) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> Similarly, I?m trying to resurrect an NCD Explora Pro, and haven?t found much more than broken links. It?s one of their ?plug a keyboard, mouse, and monitor into the box? X terminals. Plugging in a keyboard, mouse, VGA panel, and Ethernet, I get a steady green light at startup and ?donk donk? noise, then nothing, no sync on the panel. I haven?t tried its serial port yet to see if its boot ROM console was perhaps rerouted there, and I haven?t found documentation on how to do any sort of ?factory reset? of the device. I have a Raspberry Pi 3 with a USB Ethernet dongle that it?s plugged into, but I can?t remember how to use ARP on an isolated network to find the IP address of the other system. If anyone has any pointers, I?d definitely appreciate them. Same for the software to actually operate it as an X terminal. -- Chris From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Tue Nov 15 14:49:13 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:49:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: NCD Explora Pro (was Re: NCD19 / Xncd19) In-Reply-To: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> References: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <201611152049.PAA23269@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have a Raspberry Pi 3 with a USB Ethernet dongle that it???s plugged into,$ You can use ARP for that only after it comes up far enough to get an address and speak ARP. If the Pi 3 is anything like the one I had the misfortune to deal with at work a while back, it's running a Linux with a surprising number of tools renamed, crippled, or just plain missing. But if it's got tcpdump, that's the tool I'd normally use for this: connect the NCD to the Pi (or whatever other machine) with a crossed cable (or possibly straight, if the machine's Ethernet is auto-X, or whatever else is necessary, if it's not twisted-pair). Then start tcpdump, as in tcpdump -n -s 2000 -i wm0 (or whatever the actual interface name is intead of wm0). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Nov 15 14:54:08 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:54:08 -0600 Subject: NCD Explora Pro (was Re: NCD19 / Xncd19) In-Reply-To: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> References: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <001401d23f82$68f08fe0$3ad1afa0$@classiccmp.org> Chris wrote... -------- I have a Raspberry Pi 3 with a USB Ethernet dongle that it?s plugged into, but I can?t remember how to use ARP on an isolated network to find the IP address of the other system. If anyone has any pointers, I?d definitely appreciate them. -------- As I recall, ping the broadcast address, then "arp -a". J From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 14:59:09 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 13:59:09 -0700 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 1:06 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > The two WD machines that used these that I can think of were in the > Kaypro 10 and one of the TRS-80s, maybe the Xerox 820-II? > Radio Shack used a slightly modified version of the WD1000 controller board, which added a write-protect feature, for the TRS-80 models 1, 2, 3, 4, 16, and 6000. The controller was mounted in the master drive. The same basic WD1000 or WD1001 controller design, with customization, was used in the Fortune 32:16 and ACD HDC-1001. Probably others as well. From seefriek at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 15:58:32 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 21:58:32 +0000 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 Message-ID: From: Rico Pajarola > Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? Nostalgia...I really liked the NCD 19 I used many moons ago. Reasonably snappy at the time, nice mono screen, quiet. Funny enough I recently resurrected an NCD Explora 701 (much later MIPS-based xterminal). It's wildly faster than the 19 (with 10/100 enet instead of just 10), but it's interesting to see how far modern X implementation has diverged from NCDs time: 8-bit pseudo-color is a showstopper for a lot of things, various desktops (Gnome, KDE, etc.) break in strange ways if they run at all, lot's of contemporary code has issues on 64-bit systems (like my old xview/olvwm code). TWM still works fine, as does the butt-ugly built in NCD Motif-ish window manager. Haven't had much time to work on it, but I'd like to get something like i3 running. I bet Mouse can add more color commentary. Reminds me...need to see if I can still get the Mouse terminal emulator to run. Probably also need to get an SCO ODT or SVR4 VM running for that old school feel. I know I've got at least one 3.x release, but not sure which one or what's in it. FWIW, I've also got some 4.x, a 5.0.x and 5.1.x; running 5.1.140 on the 700. I'm in Dublin until next week so won't be able to check until then. Ping me directly if you don't hear from me by, say, Thursday. P.S. - If anyone has an NCD 700-series or HMX (esp HMXpro24) they don't want, let me know. KJ From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 15 16:09:22 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:09:22 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/15/2016 12:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > The same basic WD1000 or WD1001 controller design, with > customization, was used in the Fortune 32:16 and ACD HDC-1001. > Probably others as well. It was used in a *lot* of machines back then. Heck, I even used one on my IBM 5150 with a Shugart SA-1001 drive. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 15 16:25:32 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:25:32 +0000 Subject: NCD Explora Pro (was Re: NCD19 / Xncd19) In-Reply-To: <001401d23f82$68f08fe0$3ad1afa0$@classiccmp.org> References: <06E05BFA-4CF3-4284-93F9-2F526890A9C6@eschatologist.net> <001401d23f82$68f08fe0$3ad1afa0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <97dcab5b-0012-8dd6-194a-49961724ee4c@dunnington.plus.com> On 15/11/2016 20:54, Jay West wrote: > Chris wrote... -------- I have a Raspberry Pi 3 with a USB Ethernet > dongle that it?s plugged into, but I can?t remember how to use ARP on > an isolated network to find the IP address of the other system. If > anyone has any pointers, I?d definitely appreciate them. -------- > > As I recall, ping the broadcast address, then "arp -a". That's pretty much it - but it assumes (1) the device is actually using an IP address, and (2) it's on the same subnet, otherwise ping won't help. There's a utility called arping (like ping, but for MAC addresses) but it won't tell you the IP address. The only other possibility I can think of is if it uses DHCP (or more likely bootp) to try to get an address, you could snoop on that. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 16:40:36 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 14:40:36 -0800 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> <6D12BF4C-0F1F-4C82-8B27-BFD07FE190DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 9, 2016 at 7:20 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > On 11/9/16 6:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > On Nov 9, 2016, at 5:57 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> ... >>> A quick update -- I ran the ZTCD diagnostics and they do fail, despite my >>> recollection (this is what I get for not taking notes at the end of >>> yesterday, and yesterday seems so far away now...). The first test (a >>> forward WALL, followed by an RALL of a single block) fails with the >>> following spew (for example): >>> >>> BLKRQ 000310 DATA ERR WORD 00054. S/B 176376 WAS 104106 >>> >>> Based on a reading of the fiche listing (which is a slightly newer >>> revision >>> of the binary I have) I believe S/B is the expected data and "WAS" is the >>> read-back data for a given word. Since one appears to be the obverse >>> complement of the other, it looks like the obverse complement logic is >>> running when it shouldn't be... >>> >> Yes, those two patterns are indeed obverse complement. Word 0054? >> That's odd, if it's doing this wrong for a word in the middle of the >> buffer. Can you have it halt on fail so you can examine the buffer? >> >> paul >> >> >> >> It's actually word 4 (transcription error on my half) and it reports > errors for all words in the block (though the reported word number doesn't > actually correspond in any meaningful way to the word on tape, per the > documentation); i just singled that one out for an example. They all show > the read data being the obverse complement of the expected data. I'll be > doing some serious debugging tomorrow... > > - Josh > So a small update: I spent some time probing various signals and I couldn't find anything obviously wrong; while the failing diagnostic was running, the obverse complement logic in the hardware was behaving as I'd expect (i.e. it wasn't being used, since an RALL was in effect). I went so far as to write my own little test program that does basically what the ZTCD diagnostic Test 0 does -- a WDATA (forward) followed by a RALL (forward) and a comparison of the data, and everything came back clean. But I gained a better understanding of how the TC11 hardware works and how it's programmed, so that's always a good thing. And that knowledge helped me when I went back to the RT-11 formatter to see if I could work out what was going wrong there. As you recall, the formatter was failing after writing the T&M tracks with a Data Miss (DATM) error. Data Miss in this case would indicate the software not responding in time to the READY signal during a RALL command, which is interesting -- this would seem to indicate more of a software problem than a hardware one. I noticed the following commented-out line at the beginning of the program: START: ; RESET ;CLEAR THE WORLD ; MOV #P7,PS ;LOCKOUT P1 BY RAISING CPU PRIORITY <<---- Uncommenting the MOV #P7,PS line allows the formatter to run properly. It appears that interrupts (I'd guess the LTC interrupt) were taking enough time away from the program to cause it to miss data; I'm guessing it's because I'm running the FB monitor rather than the SJ monitor, but I'm not familiar enough with RT-11 yet to know exactly where to place the blame. At any rate, at this point I'm able to format a tape, initialize it in RT-11, and copy/verify files onto it without any issues. The failing diagnostics are still puzzling, but I'm almost ready to throw in the towel on them :). - Josh From emu at e-bbes.com Tue Nov 15 16:48:42 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emanuel stiebler) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:48:42 -0700 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <80f6acb0-b1fd-ceb6-7c21-8b9957205ec5@e-bbes.com> On 2016-11-15 14:58, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Rico Pajarola > >> Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? > > Nostalgia...I really liked the NCD 19 I used many moons ago. > Reasonably snappy at the time, nice mono screen, quiet. Funny enough > I recently resurrected an NCD Explora 701 (much later MIPS-based > xterminal). Is the 701 based on the RacerX from LSI? From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 15 17:34:15 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:34:15 +0100 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Found it! I spent a few hours digging through my storage and against all odds I found both the CD with a backup of everything I had collected from various internet sites as well as the original NCD boot tape release 2.3.0. While I'm searching for a working tape drive, here's the contents of the CD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0w8o31gfj1ys7w/ncd.tar.bz2?dl=0 At the very least it has some docs, all the fonts, and netboot images for anything that was supported from NCDWare 3.2 to 5.1. Unfortunately, no new manuals that are not already on bitsavers (except for the Explora 400 brochure). There's a file ncd_xp421c.tar.bz2 in there that should have the NCBridge boot monitor required for the XP221. I don't have XPressWare. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > From: Rico Pajarola > > > Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? > > Nostalgia...I really liked the NCD 19 I used many moons ago. > Reasonably snappy at the time, nice mono screen, quiet. Funny enough > I recently resurrected an NCD Explora 701 (much later MIPS-based > xterminal). It's wildly faster than the 19 (with 10/100 enet instead > of just 10), but it's interesting to see how far modern X > implementation has diverged from NCDs time: 8-bit pseudo-color is a > showstopper for a lot of things, various desktops (Gnome, KDE, etc.) > break in strange ways if they run at all, lot's of contemporary code > has issues on 64-bit systems (like my old xview/olvwm code). TWM > still works fine, as does the butt-ugly built in NCD Motif-ish window > manager. Haven't had much time to work on it, but I'd like to get > something like i3 running. I bet Mouse can add more color commentary. > Reminds me...need to see if I can still get the Mouse terminal > emulator to run. Probably also need to get an SCO ODT or SVR4 VM > running for that old school feel. > > I know I've got at least one 3.x release, but not sure which one or > what's in it. FWIW, I've also got some 4.x, a 5.0.x and 5.1.x; > running 5.1.140 on the 700. I'm in Dublin until next week so won't be > able to check until then. Ping me directly if you don't hear from me > by, say, Thursday. > > P.S. - If anyone has an NCD 700-series or HMX (esp HMXpro24) they > don't want, let me know. > > KJ > From rp at servium.ch Tue Nov 15 17:41:34 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 00:41:34 +0100 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: You can get the latest NCBridge software from http://www.thinpathsystems.com/index.php?modules=support&content=patches&pro=ncb On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:34 AM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > Found it! > > I spent a few hours digging through my storage and against all odds I > found both the CD with a backup of everything I had collected from various > internet sites as well as the original NCD boot tape release 2.3.0. > > While I'm searching for a working tape drive, here's the contents of the > CD: https://www.dropbox.com/s/l0w8o31gfj1ys7w/ncd.tar.bz2?dl=0 > > At the very least it has some docs, all the fonts, and netboot images for > anything that was supported from NCDWare 3.2 to 5.1. Unfortunately, no new > manuals that are not already on bitsavers (except for the Explora 400 > brochure). > > There's a file ncd_xp421c.tar.bz2 in there that should have the NCBridge > boot monitor required for the XP221. I don't have XPressWare. > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Ken Seefried wrote: > >> From: Rico Pajarola >> >> > Does no one have NCDWare 3.2.1 or earlier? >> >> Nostalgia...I really liked the NCD 19 I used many moons ago. >> Reasonably snappy at the time, nice mono screen, quiet. Funny enough >> I recently resurrected an NCD Explora 701 (much later MIPS-based >> xterminal). It's wildly faster than the 19 (with 10/100 enet instead >> of just 10), but it's interesting to see how far modern X >> implementation has diverged from NCDs time: 8-bit pseudo-color is a >> showstopper for a lot of things, various desktops (Gnome, KDE, etc.) >> break in strange ways if they run at all, lot's of contemporary code >> has issues on 64-bit systems (like my old xview/olvwm code). TWM >> still works fine, as does the butt-ugly built in NCD Motif-ish window >> manager. Haven't had much time to work on it, but I'd like to get >> something like i3 running. I bet Mouse can add more color commentary. >> Reminds me...need to see if I can still get the Mouse terminal >> emulator to run. Probably also need to get an SCO ODT or SVR4 VM >> running for that old school feel. >> >> I know I've got at least one 3.x release, but not sure which one or >> what's in it. FWIW, I've also got some 4.x, a 5.0.x and 5.1.x; >> running 5.1.140 on the 700. I'm in Dublin until next week so won't be >> able to check until then. Ping me directly if you don't hear from me >> by, say, Thursday. >> >> P.S. - If anyone has an NCD 700-series or HMX (esp HMXpro24) they >> don't want, let me know. >> >> KJ >> > > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:19:08 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:19:08 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials Message-ID: Has anyone determined what 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials are used by the National Semiconductor hard disk controllers? The DP8496/97 allows choice of hard-wired 16-bit CRC, or 32-bit, 48-bit, or 56-bit ECC. The 32-bit ECC is a common polynomial known as the Glover polynomial, and it's the same one used by WD and others. However, National was apparently extremely proud of the 48-bit and 56-bit polynomials they chose, and the data sheets say that they require a license agreement with National. The more common DP8466 supports 32-bit 48-bit, but allows the user to configure the polynomial. The data sheet states that National's 48-bit polynomial is available under license. WD wasn't as proud of their 56-bit polynomial; it's given in the WD42C22 data sheet. It doesn't seem to match National Semicondutor's 56-bit polynomial. From santo.nucifora at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:36:01 2016 From: santo.nucifora at gmail.com (Santo Nucifora) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 19:36:01 -0500 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Al, I don't have those particular board with the firmware but I posted a bunch of pics of what I have here, if it helps as you go through more. http://vintagecomputer.ca/bridgeboards-gallery/ Hope this helps, Santo On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/15/2016 12:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > The same basic WD1000 or WD1001 controller design, with > > customization, was used in the Fortune 32:16 and ACD HDC-1001. > > Probably others as well. > > It was used in a *lot* of machines back then. Heck, I even used one on > my IBM 5150 with a Shugart SA-1001 drive. > > --Chuck > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Tue Nov 15 18:38:14 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:38:14 -0200 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: What about a rom cataloging site? Is it feasible? 2016-11-15 22:36 GMT-02:00 Santo Nucifora : > Hi Al, > > I don't have those particular board with the firmware but I posted a bunch > of pics of what I have here, if it helps as you go through more. > > http://vintagecomputer.ca/bridgeboards-gallery/ > > Hope this helps, > Santo > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 11/15/2016 12:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > The same basic WD1000 or WD1001 controller design, with > > > customization, was used in the Fortune 32:16 and ACD HDC-1001. > > > Probably others as well. > > > > It was used in a *lot* of machines back then. Heck, I even used one on > > my IBM 5150 with a Shugart SA-1001 drive. > > > > --Chuck > > > From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Nov 15 18:47:56 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 16:47:56 -0800 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar In-Reply-To: References: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <710a70b8-a2f2-dc19-d3ec-9fecc3b7ed69@snowmoose.com> On 11/14/16 9:37 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >> In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for 1993, >> the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may >> fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned so > I don't get all the jokes but this is a nice piece of history from > that period. I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of cleaning up > the scan a bit (trimmed, de-skewed, mainly) and posted it here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MtXinu > > Thanks for doing the scan! > > -j > Thanks for doing the cleanup and saving me from having to do it! I was figuring if someone needed a better scan I could get out our good scanner rather than use the all-in-one. I did some searching to see if the calendars were already scanned and available, all I could find was a forum post from asking if they were scanned and available, but no response from a decade ago. So I figured it was worth scanning. I wish that I had more of them. CHM has a 1991 calendar. Hey, Al, would you guys at CHM like a 1993 calendar? alan From elson at pico-systems.com Tue Nov 15 20:30:15 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:30:15 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582BC4B7.6010507@pico-systems.com> On 11/15/2016 12:15 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. > > It might be common for other Tek equipment. > > Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. > > Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: > > http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg > I can't say for sure, but the best place for caps is Mouser. I've been able to source a number of special caps from them. Jon From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 15 21:32:44 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 19:32:44 -0800 Subject: 1993 Mt. Xinu calendar In-Reply-To: <710a70b8-a2f2-dc19-d3ec-9fecc3b7ed69@snowmoose.com> References: <871c8183-52a0-b2e6-49d8-7508ec6e4c65@snowmoose.com> <710a70b8-a2f2-dc19-d3ec-9fecc3b7ed69@snowmoose.com> Message-ID: <5cba2da6-c95a-4e3c-7f08-b2c1b462be43@bitsavers.org> probably. On 11/15/16 4:47 PM, Alan Perry wrote: > On 11/14/16 9:37 PM, Jason T wrote: >> On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 4:16 PM, Alan Perry wrote: >>> In a box of my old stuff, I found a copy of the Mt. Xinu calendar for 1993, >>> the last year that they did a calendar, and scanned it. Some of you may >>> fondly remember the Mt. Xinu calendars so I am hosting what I scanned so >> I don't get all the jokes but this is a nice piece of history from >> that period. I hope you don't mind, I took the liberty of cleaning up >> the scan a bit (trimmed, de-skewed, mainly) and posted it here: >> >> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/MtXinu >> >> Thanks for doing the scan! >> >> -j >> > Thanks for doing the cleanup and saving me from having to do it! I was figuring if someone needed a better scan I could > get out our good scanner rather than use the all-in-one. > > I did some searching to see if the calendars were already scanned and available, all I could find was a forum post from > asking if they were scanned and available, but no response from a decade ago. So I figured it was worth scanning. I wish > that I had more of them. > > CHM has a 1991 calendar. Hey, Al, would you guys at CHM like a 1993 calendar? > > alan > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 15 21:45:41 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 22:45:41 -0500 Subject: OT- PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... This is Message-ID: <5791bb.2b28f8bc.455d3065@aol.com> PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... This is the sounds of our music! - check your time guide for AZ pm - however calif and others can differ Soundbreaking - Painting with Sound #102 Tuesday, November 15, 09:00 pm on 8.1 ((AZ TIME Othere state PBS check your Sched. Duration: 0:56:46 Description: Learn how the recording studio itself became an instrument. From the advent of magnetic tape, chart the evolution of multi-track recording and the ingenuity of artists such as the Beatles, Beach Boys, Pink Floyd and Fleetwood Mac. http://www.azpbs.org/previews/play.php?vidId=9753 From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 02:25:55 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:25:55 -0000 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <021501d23fe3$0d3bbab0$27b33010$@gmail.com> Would Al catalogue these for us ? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alexandre > Souza > Sent: 16 November 2016 00:38 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 > > What about a rom cataloging site? Is it feasible? > > > 2016-11-15 22:36 GMT-02:00 Santo Nucifora : > > > Hi Al, > > > > I don't have those particular board with the firmware but I posted a > > bunch of pics of what I have here, if it helps as you go through more. > > > > http://vintagecomputer.ca/bridgeboards-gallery/ > > > > Hope this helps, > > Santo > > > > On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > > > On 11/15/2016 12:59 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > > > > The same basic WD1000 or WD1001 controller design, with > > > > customization, was used in the Fortune 32:16 and ACD HDC-1001. > > > > Probably others as well. > > > > > > It was used in a *lot* of machines back then. Heck, I even used one > > > on my IBM 5150 with a Shugart SA-1001 drive. > > > > > > --Chuck > > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 16 04:44:00 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 11:44:00 +0100 Subject: Paper tape carriers and paper tape In-Reply-To: References: <011062b9-2eeb-1752-6105-61a5cf1f4cb7@bitsavers.org> <992329A3-EE62-4F5C-8BF2-14C2E393DD2A@comcast.net> <7710bb00-6447-b54f-8697-b06a56f83a11@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161116104400.GM15171@Update.UU.SE> On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 02:03:36PM -0800, Ian S. King wrote: > > Somewhere I have a photo of the machine that IBM used to make punch cards. > It's in a small museum in Endicott, NY. It did indeed take a roll of paper > made to IBM specs and produce the flat punch cards many of us know and some > subset of those, love. It hadn't been run in years when I saw it. > Ed has some pictures of it: http://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/IBM-EndicottMuseum.html /P From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 11 14:17:58 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 15:17:58 -0500 (EST) Subject: Looking for terminals again In-Reply-To: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> References: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: <201611112017.PAA21539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? > Is Ottawa too far away? While we're speaking of Ottawa and terminals...it's neither DEC nor IBM, but I do have a Hazeltine in Ottawa I would like to get rid of, but I do not like the idea of just chucking it. Anyone interested? I think it's a 1500, but it might be a 1420. It's certainly got the look of a 1500 in my memory. I don't know whether it still works. I'm pretty sure it worked last time I tried it, but that was at least two moves ago. It _looks_ in good shape, but I trust we all know how little that means. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From scott.l.baker at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 22:35:23 2016 From: scott.l.baker at gmail.com (Scott Baker) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 20:35:23 -0800 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation Message-ID: Hi* >> Any chance it could be put into 'production'? *I placed an order today for 3 RL02 emulator interface boards from OshPark. I expect it will take 2 weeks to get the boards back from OshPark. I am leveraging RL02 emulator work from Reinhard Heuberger, but I am using a newer FPGA board than his current design (the FPGA board that he is currently usingis not available), so there is some porting work required which will also take some time. Regards, Scott From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Nov 11 23:07:44 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 18:07:44 +1300 Subject: PDP-11 RL02 disk emulation In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 5:35 PM, Scott Baker wrote: > Hi* > >>> Any chance it could be put into 'production'? > > *I placed an order today for 3 RL02 emulator interface boards from OshPark. > I expect it will take 2 weeks to get the boards back from OshPark. > I am leveraging RL02 emulator work from Reinhard Heuberger, but I am > using a newer FPGA board than his current design (the FPGA board that > he is currently usingis not available), so there is some porting work > required which will also take some time. Oh I didn't know this was on the menu. I'm in a morass of pdp-11s at the moment; I could certainly use one of these. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From pete at petelancashire.com Fri Nov 11 23:17:28 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Fri, 11 Nov 2016 21:17:28 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Are you saying there is a -12V test point and there is nothing there ? If +5 is 400mV high, that's not dangerous but it is something I'd take care of first. -pete On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going in. > > I found test points on the power supply/motor driver board as detailed in > Chapter 12 of that manual. > > +5v, +12v, +15v, +42v and +85v are all there (and all .4v high or so) > > But there is no -12v. That seems relevant. > > The capacitors all look OK to the naked eye. > > Actually diagnosing and repairing electronics is new territory for me, but > I suppose this is where I read up, maybe pull that board out, and start > testing diodes and caps. > > Thanks again Alexandre - and if you or anyone else has any clues to narrow > it down, please share. > > M. > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Alexandre Souza < > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > How is the power supply? All rails ok? Input/output capacitors not bulged > > nor leaked? > > > > 2016-11-11 21:36 GMT-02:00 Michael Newton : > > > > > I acquired a working HP Draftmaster RX (HP part # 7596B). > > > > > > An awesome machine, 36" roll feed and 8 pens, complete with several pen > > > carousels, user manual, and hundreds of working pens. > > > > > > I was very excited to make a splash in the art world with this thing. I > > did > > > get it to perfectly draw a 3 color demo page from the front panel. > > > > > > Thereafter it started displaying errors on the display such as "200" > > which > > > means it needs "mechanical calibration". > > > > > > Thanks to hpmuseum.net I acquired the service manual > > > , which catalogs > many > > > calibrations and self-tests to run from the front panel, including the > > > aforementioned "mechanical calibration". > > > > > > So I power up with the appropriate front panel keys depressed to run > this > > > calibration. The paper drive motor starts making noise, but the paper > > > rollers aren't turning, and the LCD display is blank. > > > > > > Since that moment, the LCD display is always blank so it is currently a > > > boat anchor. > > > > > > It's a terribly sad state of affairs. I have basic electronics and > > > mechanical skills and an oscilloscope so following the troubleshooting > > > procedures in the manual I might be able to identify a part to replace. > > But > > > of course, parts for sale online are are rare, expensive, used and > > probably > > > untested. > > > > > > Probably better would be lower-level repair of whatever parts are > faulty > > > but that's probably more than I can manage at my skill level. > > > > > > I'm in Seattle, WA. Is there anyone alive in the pacific NW who will > pay > > a > > > visit and help me fix this thing? (The only company I found that admits > > to > > > working on pen plotters is 360tech in Austin, TX.) > > > > > > Or someone elsewhere I could ship electronics parts to for test and > > repair? > > > Or provide guidance, or help in any form at all? > > > > > > thanks > > > M. > > > > > > > From john.h.blake at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 15:38:54 2016 From: john.h.blake at gmail.com (John Blake) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 16:38:54 -0500 Subject: more on lisp compilers Message-ID: <5d4fe977-76a8-90df-8439-9461dae9c691@gmail.com> Just FYI the VAX/VMS (and Alpha VMS) ADA, BASIC, C, Pascal and Fortran compilers can be found on the relevant CD images on VaxHaven. I've tested each, since licenses for all are still part of the hobbyist package, and a modern hobbyist license will work with the older versions found on VaxHaven from the mid 90s just fine. So if anyone just wants the compilers themselves rather than a specific older version, that should work quite well for you. From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 16:51:56 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 11:51:56 +1300 Subject: Perq 1 troubles Message-ID: Just on the off-chance... does anyone have schematics for the Perq 1 portrait monitor? Mine is sick... and there are none on bitsavers. On first power-up there was a faint raster pattern but that quickly vanished and now there's no sign of life from the tube heaters... Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sat Nov 12 16:54:26 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sat, 12 Nov 2016 22:54:26 +0000 Subject: Perq 1 troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Just on the off-chance... does anyone have schematics for the Perq 1 > portrait monitor? Mine is sick... and there are none on bitsavers. On > first power-up there was a faint raster pattern but that quickly > vanished and now there's no sign of life from the tube heaters... Alas I am too tired to go digging tonight, but I am pretty sure I have them. I will see what I can find tomorrow.... -tony From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 13 05:10:23 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 11:10:23 +0000 Subject: Perq 1 troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > Just on the off-chance... does anyone have schematics for the Perq 1 > portrait monitor? Mine is sick... and there are none on bitsavers. On > first power-up there was a faint raster pattern but that quickly > vanished and now there's no sign of life from the tube heaters... I have found a manual from Video Monitors Inc (VMI) that I have written ''PERQ 1 monitor' on the outside cover of, so I assume that's the one. The circuit diagrams are not very clear (it's an nth generation copy I am afraid) but there are theory-of-operation and troubleshooting sections that might be useful to you. Would you like me to get it scanned sometime soon? -tony From ajp166 at verizon.net Sun Nov 13 12:07:36 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Sun, 13 Nov 2016 13:07:36 -0500 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> Message-ID: <3976d1bd-0dcf-4b6a-22ca-a5a444dc460c@verizon.net> On 11/13/2016 12:10 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/11/2016 15:52, dwight wrote: > >> I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the >> KIM's expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find >> out what is failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. >> >> While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, >> these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar >> part, the 6532 that is similar, without ROM. > >> After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for >> the debug and 6532 adapter. > >> I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a >> set of boards? > > Count me in, please. > Add me to the list. It is possible to have the 6532 and a eprom as a 6530 emulator. Allison From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Nov 14 10:35:26 2016 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:35:26 +0000 Subject: Looking for terminals again In-Reply-To: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> References: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> Message-ID: Yeah, unfortunately Ottawa is a bit too far for me. But if it wasn?t I?d be looking at that AS/400. -brian On 2016-11-11, 11:37 AM, "cctech on behalf of Mike" wrote: >On Monday, November 07, 2016 17:22:22 Brian Adams wrote: >> The interest in video terminals has been awoken again, and I am again >> searching for one. I like the look/size of the VT220s, very nice and >> compact! >> >> >> Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? I?m >>probably >> somewhat interested! >> >> -brian > >Is Ottawa too far away? >I have a few AS400 (9404) and at least 1 terminal for it as well as >Volker >Craig and a few others. > > >-- >Collector of vintage computers http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600 From fink at stenoweb.net Mon Nov 14 10:36:59 2016 From: fink at stenoweb.net (Brian Adams) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 16:36:59 +0000 Subject: Looking for terminals again In-Reply-To: <201611112017.PAA21539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <1587548.Gl4gFBUdQ9@linux-zlo2> <201611112017.PAA21539@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: >>> Anybody have extra DEC or IBM terminals in Toronto (Canada) ? >> Is Ottawa too far away? > >While we're speaking of Ottawa and terminals...it's neither DEC nor >IBM, but I do have a Hazeltine in Ottawa I would like to get rid of, >but I do not like the idea of just chucking it. Anyone interested? > >I think it's a 1500, but it might be a 1420. It's certainly got the >look of a 1500 in my memory. > >I don't know whether it still works. I'm pretty sure it worked last >time I tried it, but that was at least two moves ago. It _looks_ in >good shape, but I trust we all know how little that means. > >/~\ The ASCII Mouse >\ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >/ \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > Hazeltines are nice, maybe I?ll find one some day. -bran From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Mon Nov 14 14:13:06 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Mon, 14 Nov 2016 22:13:06 +0200 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Here you go - http://m88k.com/XEBEC_104788G.BIN On Mon, Nov 14, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and tape > boards > starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two alternate > fw > proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can compare > it to > the one used on the S1420 > > > From plamenspam at afterpeople.com Tue Nov 15 09:34:47 2016 From: plamenspam at afterpeople.com (Plamen Mihaylov) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 17:34:47 +0200 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have 104788G ROM, but my reply hasn't been published for some reason. On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > yes, thanks. > I have pictures up now for the S1401 and S1420, still need to do S1410 and > S1410A > > On 11/14/16 3:53 PM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > > > >> On Nov 14, 2016, at 05:57, Al Kossow wrote: > >> > >> I just started cataloging and dumping firmware my SASI/SCSI disk and > tape boards > >> starting with Xebec. It would be nice to find images for the two > alternate fw > >> proms for the S1410A, particularly the 8k 104793 version so I can > compare it to > >> the one used on the S1420 > > > > I think I have an S1410 with 104521F. Do you have that one already? > > > > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Nov 15 12:29:08 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 10:29:08 -0800 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: If you can't find a replacement that is "NEW" and by that I mean made in the past couple years ... It has been > 30 years since I've been inside a 4051 your best bet might bt to take an axle (wires out both ends) leaded cap and doing things like standing it on end and use a wire that runs down the side to where the can connected, make sure the wire is insulated and then use heat shrink to mechanically secure it. Electrically the wire should be at least hmmm ... 18 AWG, I'd see if 16 AWG would fit. The issue is your adding resistance but since you only working with 60 (or 50/120/100) Hz that shouldn't be much of a problem. -pete Ex Tekkie On Tue, Nov 15, 2016 at 10:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. > > It might be common for other Tek equipment. > > Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. > > Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: > > http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg > > From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 15 14:44:04 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 15:44:04 -0500 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/15/16 2:37 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Great link! That's a great middle ground - preserves the look without having to find the original cap. > Marc > >> On Nov 15, 2016, at 11:15 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. >> It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. >> >> It might be common for other Tek equipment. >> >> Google turned up one Ebay-hit for a completed auction but that's it. >> >> Anyone has a reliable source for this type of capacitor: >> >> http://i.imgur.com/P0Nz5KW.jpg You might look here. https://www.tubesandmore.com/products/capacitors?filters=Type%3DMulti-Section%20/%20Can%20Type Note the "tube audio" folks gravitate to that stuff and tend to cause seriously sick prices, because tubes. For authentic look: The easy way is remove the old carefully, gut it and install inside several smaller modern electrolytics of the proper ratings. Reinstall using the bottom bakelite terminal cap and go your merry way. Make it work again: Pull the old out and replace with multiple smaller modern parts and move on. Allison From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 07:13:10 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 02:13:10 +1300 Subject: Perq 1 troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 17, 2016 1:55 AM, "Tony Duell" wrote: > > On Sat, Nov 12, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > Just on the off-chance... does anyone have schematics for the Perq 1 > > portrait monitor? Mine is sick... and there are none on bitsavers. On > > first power-up there was a faint raster pattern but that quickly > > vanished and now there's no sign of life from the tube heaters... > > I have found a manual from Video Monitors Inc (VMI) that I have written > ''PERQ 1 monitor' on the outside cover of, so I assume that's the one. > > The circuit diagrams are not very clear (it's an nth generation copy I > am afraid) but there are theory-of-operation and troubleshooting > sections that might be useful to you. > > Would you like me to get it scanned sometime soon? > > -tony Tony that would be great; mine is a VMI monitor too. I'm sure Bitsavers would appreciate a copy! Thanks 'Mike From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 07:43:30 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:43:30 +0000 Subject: Perq 1 troubles In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Tony that would be great; mine is a VMI monitor too. I'm sure Bitsavers > would appreciate a copy! I think all PERQ 1 (and 1A) monitors were VMI. 2T1's have KME portrait monitors (at least in the UK) 2T2's (and 2T4's) have either Three Rivers portrait or Moniterm landscape monitors (I have never heard of a portrait 2T4, BTW) AGW3300s (the ICL 68020 one) have KME landscape monitors I will try to get the VMI manual scanned. But be warned some bits are unreadable. It will be better than nothing. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 16 09:05:37 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 07:05:37 -0800 Subject: ISO Xebec S1410A fw #104792 or 104793 In-Reply-To: <021501d23fe3$0d3bbab0$27b33010$@gmail.com> References: <021501d23fe3$0d3bbab0$27b33010$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0981e061-28c3-ef9a-ef9d-d32a34fe157e@bitsavers.org> As far as creating text files in firmware directories, yes There probably should be something on github if a bunch of people are going to be editing files that could be pulled. I'm NOT going to put up any sort of Wiki though. Bitsavers stays a collection of files that can be easily mirrored with rsync. On 11/16/16 12:25 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > Would Al catalogue these for us ? > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 09:15:47 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:15:47 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: <3976d1bd-0dcf-4b6a-22ca-a5a444dc460c@verizon.net> References: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> , <3976d1bd-0dcf-4b6a-22ca-a5a444dc460c@verizon.net> Message-ID: Actually it'll use a EEPROM for the 6530 emulator. I've located some small 28C64s. The advantage is that these can be programmed with the debug board while on the KIM board. It should look good as well because it will be tucked under the 6532. The registers are slightly different on the 6530 and 6532 but they should work the same if one ties the 6532s A4 a constant high. This looses half the 6532s 128 bytes of RAM but the 6530 only had 64 bytes anyway so nothing really lost. The only difference then is the interrupt. The 6532 has edge or level interrupt but few people wire up the interrupt. It isn't clear but I believe the 6530 is a level interrupt and that should be the reset level for the 6532. I'm looking at board maker options. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:07:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool On 11/13/2016 12:10 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/11/2016 15:52, dwight wrote: > >> I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the >> KIM's expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find >> out what is failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. >> >> While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, >> these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar >> part, the 6532 that is similar, without ROM. > >> After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for >> the debug and 6532 adapter. > >> I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a >> set of boards? > > Count me in, please. > Add me to the list. It is possible to have the 6532 and a eprom as a 6530 emulator. Allison From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 16 10:48:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 08:48:38 -0800 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8e3435f0-3cb2-8fbf-27d5-d46ee49fb137@bitsavers.org> On 11/15/16 3:34 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > Unfortunately, no new > manuals that are not already on bitsavers (except for the Explora 400 > brochure). > I scanned a NCD16 users manual and uploaded it to bitsavers yesterday and created a list of the part numbers of the manuals I know about. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:11:55 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:11:55 +0000 Subject: KIM-1 Debugging tool In-Reply-To: References: <006701d238bf$b5d9bb20$218d3160$@net> , <3976d1bd-0dcf-4b6a-22ca-a5a444dc460c@verizon.net>, Message-ID: Hi Santo Nucifora and Cameron Kaiser Your email addresses have bounced. Please send a private mail to me with a useful email address. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 7:15:47 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool Actually it'll use a EEPROM for the 6530 emulator. I've located some small 28C64s. The advantage is that these can be programmed with the debug board while on the KIM board. It should look good as well because it will be tucked under the 6532. The registers are slightly different on the 6530 and 6532 but they should work the same if one ties the 6532s A4 a constant high. This looses half the 6532s 128 bytes of RAM but the 6530 only had 64 bytes anyway so nothing really lost. The only difference then is the interrupt. The 6532 has edge or level interrupt but few people wire up the interrupt. It isn't clear but I believe the 6530 is a level interrupt and that should be the reset level for the 6532. I'm looking at board maker options. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of allison Sent: Sunday, November 13, 2016 10:07:36 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: KIM-1 Debugging tool On 11/13/2016 12:10 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 13/11/2016 15:52, dwight wrote: > >> I've created a simple debugging board that one can plug onto the >> KIM's expansion buss that has debug code on it. It allows one to find >> out what is failing on the KIM so they know what to replace. >> >> While developing it, I found that my 6530-002 is bad. As we all know, >> these are custom made and no longer available. There is a similar >> part, the 6532 that is similar, without ROM. > >> After verifying that every thing works, I may create PC boards for >> the debug and 6532 adapter. > >> I'm looking to see how many people would be interested in buying a >> set of boards? > > Count me in, please. > Add me to the list. It is possible to have the 6532 and a eprom as a 6530 emulator. Allison From seefriek at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 13:19:24 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 19:19:24 +0000 Subject: NCD19 / Xncd19 Message-ID: > Is the 701 based on the RacerX from LSI? Good question...nice shout-out for an obscure MIPS variant. The Explora 700 is, however, not a RacerX, but an R4700. With up to 256MB of RAM. Which is nice. KJ From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Nov 16 13:47:52 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:47:52 -0500 Subject: General TC11 DECtape diagnostic/formatter questions In-Reply-To: References: <9BB232C2-B68F-411C-854E-238BB7A127E8@comcast.net> <6D12BF4C-0F1F-4C82-8B27-BFD07FE190DE@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 15, 2016, at 5:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > ... > I noticed the following commented-out line at the beginning of the program: > > START: > ; RESET ;CLEAR THE WORLD > ; MOV #P7,PS ;LOCKOUT P1 BY RAISING CPU PRIORITY <<---- > > Uncommenting the MOV #P7,PS line allows the formatter to run properly. > It appears that interrupts (I'd guess the LTC interrupt) were taking > enough time away from the program to cause it to miss data; I'm > guessing it's because I'm running the FB monitor rather than the SJ > monitor, but I'm not familiar enough with RT-11 yet to know exactly > where to place the blame. Yes, commenting out that code is clearly a bug. The RALL/WALL/WRTM functions are used in program I/O mode, so the CPU has to be ready with each new word as the tape finishes with the previous one. Interrupts are most definitely supposed to be disabled. DECtape formatting is a standalone activity, not something run under any OS. RT-11 FB is likely to do a bit more stuff per clock interrupt, but either way, you're entirely correct that interrupts -- clock or otherwise -- need to be disabled. The consequence of spurious interrupts might be a corrupt mark track, or wrong data written by the WALL pass, or verify errors during the RALL pass. BTW, on RALL, it's actually possible to use DMA for the lower 16 bits of the 18 bit data. The RT11 utility FILEX does that when reading PDP10 format tapes. (I suppose the same might be true for WALL, I haven't heard of that being done.) But the conventional way is to ignore the DMA and handle the data via the Data register plus the two extended data bits in the status register. paul From ethan at 757.org Wed Nov 16 13:59:22 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:59:22 -0500 (EST) Subject: OT- PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... This is In-Reply-To: <5791bb.2b28f8bc.455d3065@aol.com> References: <5791bb.2b28f8bc.455d3065@aol.com> Message-ID: > PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... This > is the sounds of our music! - check your time guide for AZ pm - however > calif and others can differ Soundbreaking - Painting with Sound #102 Tuesday, > November 15, 09:00 pm on 8.1 ((AZ TIME Othere state PBS check your Sched. > Duration: 0:56:46 Description: Learn how the recording studio itself became > an instrument. From the advent of magnetic tape, chart the evolution of > multi-track recording and the ingenuity of artists such as the Beatles, Beach > Boys, Pink Floyd and Fleetwood Mac. > http://www.azpbs.org/previews/play.php?vidId=9753 If you're into this, you should also check out the documentary Sound City. Also there is a Muscle Shoals recording studio documentary as well that is on NetFlix. -- Ethan O'Toole From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 16 14:04:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:04:16 -0500 Subject: OT- PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... Thi... Message-ID: <809a.761e48de.455e15c0@aol.com> Ethan thanks for the heads up on this I will check them out! In a message dated 11/16/2016 12:59:39 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, ethan at 757.org writes: > PBS tonight...Watch TV along with Ed# Recording studio history... This > is the sounds of our music! - check your time guide for AZ pm - however > calif and others can differ Soundbreaking - Painting with Sound #102 Tuesday, > November 15, 09:00 pm on 8.1 ((AZ TIME Othere state PBS check your Sched. > Duration: 0:56:46 Description: Learn how the recording studio itself became > an instrument. From the advent of magnetic tape, chart the evolution of > multi-track recording and the ingenuity of artists such as the Beatles, Beach > Boys, Pink Floyd and Fleetwood Mac. > http://www.azpbs.org/previews/play.php?vidId=9753 If you're into this, you should also check out the documentary Sound City. Also there is a Muscle Shoals recording studio documentary as well that is on NetFlix. -- Ethan O'Toole From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 16 14:30:11 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:30:11 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> So I took a chance..... Seller hasn't responded to any of the previous emails, nor have they acknowledged the purchase in any way. Something I have never seen before in all my ebay transactions... when I go into ebay instead of a greyed out $ symbol (unpaid) or black $ symbol (paid)... it has an hourglass. Hovering the mouse said "your payment is being processed". Kinda odd since the payment was from paypal funds already on account. So I logged into paypal.... Paypal says "eBay - fishslayer40 at XXXXXXXX (redacted) hasn't accepted yet." Google shows no trace of that email address and while not a red flag, usually something is in the search results for someone's email address. I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. Crossing my fingers.... J From cctalk at ibm51xx.net Wed Nov 16 14:36:46 2016 From: cctalk at ibm51xx.net (Ali) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:36:46 -0800 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer Message-ID: Could ?be a number of things. Usually the seller has setup the wrong email address in eBay. I.e. they put in an email address for their PayPal account that does not match the actual PP account. If he is real a quick call to eBay will get it fixed.? -------- Original message -------- From: Jay West Date: 11/16/16 12:30 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Subject: RE: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer So I took a chance..... Seller hasn't responded to any of the previous emails, nor have they acknowledged the purchase in any way. Something I have never seen before in all my ebay transactions... when I go? into ebay instead of a greyed out $ symbol (unpaid) or black $ symbol (paid)... it has an hourglass. Hovering the mouse said "your payment is being processed". Kinda odd since the payment was from paypal funds already on account. So I logged into paypal.... Paypal says "eBay - fishslayer40 at XXXXXXXX (redacted) hasn't accepted yet." Google shows no trace of that email address and while not a red flag, usually something is in the search results for someone's email address. I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. Crossing my fingers.... J From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 16 14:43:55 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:43:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Jay West wrote: > I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them > to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. If they do not HAVE a Paypal account (or CLOSED one??), then a payment to them would consist of Paypal sending them an email saying that there is money for them, and for them to do a special "guest"? login to ask to be sent the money. If they haven't done that, then Paypal might say that they haven't "accepted" the money yet. If they cheated somebody in the past, and OWE money, then Paypal might require them to agree to make good on the previous (have some or all of the incoming money go to back debts?) before they can accept the money?? From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 16 15:20:43 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 16:20:43 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <582CCDAB.8040309@cimmeri.com> On 11/16/2016 3:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > So I took a chance..... > > ... > > Seller hasn't responded to any of the previous emails, nor have they acknowledged the purchase in any way. > > ... > > Crossing my fingers.... Give it a few weeks. He could be out on the Tundra somewhere. (Is there a Tundra in Alaska?!) - J. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 16 15:32:15 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 13:32:15 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582CCDAB.8040309@cimmeri.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CCDAB.8040309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: >> Seller hasn't responded to any of the previous emails, nor have they >> acknowledged the purchase in any way. >> Crossing my fingers.... On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > Give it a few weeks. He could be out on the Tundra somewhere. (Is there a > Tundra in Alaska?!) IF he has a valid Paypal account, then Paypal would move the money to his account, and show it as "paid". Disunirregardless of whether he is around. The non-show of "paid" indicates that his Paypal account is NOT valid. Which could be as simple as a typo on his part in listing his account with eBay (thus pointing to an address that Paypal doesn't recognize). 'Course, when he complains about problems with Paypal and wants you to send the money by Western Union, . . . From wsudol at scng.com Wed Nov 16 14:47:08 2016 From: wsudol at scng.com (Wayne Sudol) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:47:08 -0800 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Had the same problem with a seller. I always got the "seller hasn't accepted the payment. It was trying because ebay didn't give them the correct info when they cheked into it. Finally, the seller checked the account details and said the account was linked to an "email" address that they hadn't used in a long time. Wayne Sudol Riverside PressEnterprise A DigitalFirst Media Newspaper. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:36 PM, Ali wrote: > Could be a number of things. Usually the seller has setup the wrong email > address in eBay. I.e. they put in an email address for their PayPal account > that does not match the actual PP account. If he is real a quick call to > eBay will get it fixed. > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Jay West > Date: 11/16/16 12:30 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: RE: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer > > So I took a chance..... > > Seller hasn't responded to any of the previous emails, nor have they > acknowledged the purchase in any way. > > Something I have never seen before in all my ebay transactions... when I > go into ebay instead of a greyed out $ symbol (unpaid) or black $ symbol > (paid)... it has an hourglass. Hovering the mouse said "your payment is > being processed". Kinda odd since the payment was from paypal funds already > on account. So I logged into paypal.... > > Paypal says "eBay - fishslayer40 at XXXXXXXX (redacted) hasn't accepted > yet." Google shows no trace of that email address and while not a red flag, > usually something is in the search results for someone's email address. > > I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them to > "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. > > Crossing my fingers.... > > J > > > From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 16 14:58:27 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 12:58:27 -0800 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Give PP a call, not had this problem before but they have been very helpful each time -pete On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Jay West wrote: > >> I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them >> to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. >> > > > If they do not HAVE a Paypal account (or CLOSED one??), > then a payment to them would consist of Paypal sending them an email > saying that there is money for them, and for them to do a special "guest"? > login to ask to be sent the money. > If they haven't done that, then Paypal might say that they haven't > "accepted" the money yet. > > If they cheated somebody in the past, and OWE money, then Paypal might > require them to agree to make good on the previous (have some or all of the > incoming money go to back debts?) before they can accept the money?? > > From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 16 16:16:58 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:16:58 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. - J. On 11/16/2016 3:58 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Give PP a call, not had this problem before but they have been very helpful > each time > > -pete > > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 12:43 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, Jay West wrote: >> >>> I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them >>> to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. >>> >> >> If they do not HAVE a Paypal account (or CLOSED one??), >> then a payment to them would consist of Paypal sending them an email >> saying that there is money for them, and for them to do a special "guest"? >> login to ask to be sent the money. >> If they haven't done that, then Paypal might say that they haven't >> "accepted" the money yet. >> >> If they cheated somebody in the past, and OWE money, then Paypal might >> require them to agree to make good on the previous (have some or all of the >> incoming money go to back debts?) before they can accept the money?? >> >> > From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 16 16:17:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:17:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. Meanwhile, the seller is impatiently waiting, while closely monitoring the wrong account, waiting for it; eventually giving up and relisting the item? From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 16 16:20:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:20:19 -0800 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: If he put down the wrong email address, that would explain why no replies to inquiries On 11/16/16 2:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. > > Meanwhile, the seller is impatiently waiting, while closely monitoring the wrong account, waiting for it; eventually > giving up and relisting the item? > > From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 16 16:25:37 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:25:37 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <582CDCE1.2000007@cimmeri.com> On 11/16/2016 5:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com > wrote: >> This is all the seller's >> responsibility. All Jay has to do is >> wait. > > Meanwhile, the seller is impatiently > waiting, while closely monitoring the > wrong account, waiting for it; > eventually giving up and relisting the > item? If the seller is completely incompetent, they might try to behave as you describe. But, since the seller has sufficient wherewithal to post an item with photos, then they're sufficient to see that the item is now listed as "sold" (they also receive an ebay email to that effect), and can as easily see that's it's been paid for and contact Jay if they have any questions In over a decade of being on eBay, I've had similar things happen and never needed a buyer to figure things out for me. - J. From js at cimmeri.com Wed Nov 16 16:27:41 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:27:41 -0500 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <582CDD5D.8070008@cimmeri.com> Possibly, but not entirely since eBay has its own webmail system. I presume any seller would occasionally log in to check for activity on one's listed items. - J. On 11/16/2016 5:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > If he put down the wrong email address, that would explain why no replies to inquiries > > On 11/16/16 2:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. >> >> >> > > From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 16:52:45 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 14:52:45 -0800 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582CDD5D.8070008@cimmeri.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582CDADA.6090309@cimmeri.com> <582CDD5D.8070008@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Bruh, fishslayer40 is obviously out slayin' fishes. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 2:27 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Possibly, but not entirely since eBay has its own webmail system. I > presume any seller > would occasionally log in to check for activity on one's listed items. > > - J. > > > On 11/16/2016 5:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> If he put down the wrong email address, that would explain why no replies >> to inquiries >> >> On 11/16/16 2:17 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >> >>> On Wed, 16 Nov 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> >>>> This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 16 19:56:49 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 17:56:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: from Ian Finder at "Nov 16, 16 02:52:45 pm" Message-ID: <201611170156.uAH1unNs4587670@floodgap.com> > > > > This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is wait. > > > > > > If he put down the wrong email address, that would explain why no replies > > > to inquiries > > > > Possibly, but not entirely since eBay has its own webmail system. I > > presume any seller > > would occasionally log in to check for activity on one's listed items. > > Bruh, fishslayer40 is obviously out slayin' fishes. Slayin' *forty* fishes. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- I feel sorry for you, son. I got forty fishes and a problem ain't one. ----- From mark at markesystems.com Wed Nov 16 20:59:49 2016 From: mark at markesystems.com (mark at markesystems.com) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 18:59:49 -0800 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Mattis Lind Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix > 4051. > It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. Check out www.cedist.com - they have a pretty good assortment of these old-style capacitors available. ~~ Mark Moulding From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:10:59 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:10:59 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: "Note the "tube audio" folks gravitate to that stuff and tend to cause seriously sick prices, because tubes." Ahem.. First off.. if it weren't for the large number of vintage (tube) audio folks, these parts would most likely be even +more+ expensive than they already are, if they were even available at all. Economy of scale looms large over such products. Secondly, I'd challenge you to take a fair look at the pricing of Mallory FP-type parts from the classic era - when corrected for inflation, the pricing of modern production is comparable with the pricing of that period. These quality multi-section caps were never cheap items - and again, consider the vast difference in production scale then and now, when comparing economy. FYI - I've installed dozens of the new-production CE / Mallory caps, all of them in the 350-525V range. Zero complaints, zero comebacks, in as long as I've installed them. For those of us in that field, they're like a gift from the gods. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 8:59 PM, wrote: > From: Mattis Lind > Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. > > One of the DC filter capacitors has gone open circuit in my Tektronix 4051. >> It is a SPRAGUE 9600 uF - 30VDC with a little bit unusual foot print. >> > > Check out www.cedist.com - they have a pretty good assortment of these > old-style capacitors available. > ~~ > Mark Moulding > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Nov 16 22:16:05 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:16:05 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <201611170156.uAH1unNs4587670@floodgap.com> References: <201611170156.uAH1unNs4587670@floodgap.com> Message-ID: So you're saying it's.. fishy.. then? I'd agree. Watch your butt. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 7:56 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > > > > > This is all the seller's responsibility. All Jay has to do is > wait. > > > > > > > > If he put down the wrong email address, that would explain why no > replies > > > > to inquiries > > > > > > Possibly, but not entirely since eBay has its own webmail system. I > > > presume any seller > > > would occasionally log in to check for activity on one's listed items. > > > > Bruh, fishslayer40 is obviously out slayin' fishes. > > Slayin' *forty* fishes. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- I feel sorry for you, son. I got forty fishes and a problem ain't one. > ----- > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 16 22:36:50 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:36:50 -0600 Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <582D33E2.4080107@pico-systems.com> On 11/16/2016 02:30 PM, Jay West wrote: > > I have never seen where paying someone on ebay via paypal required them to "accept the funds". They just "get them" I thought. > > If the buyer is not "confirmed" or it is an international transaction, PayPal often requires the seller to accept the transaction. Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 16 22:40:38 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 20:40:38 -0800 (PST) Subject: eBay: 1982 Prime Computer In-Reply-To: <582D33E2.4080107@pico-systems.com> References: <20161115142606.185A618C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161115143443.659A8A58586@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d23f55$300e2890$902a79b0$@classiccmp.org> <582B37F3.4030004@cimmeri.com> <000601d23f61$8ecc7fb0$ac657f10$@classiccmp.org> <582B44BF.6010305@cimmeri.com> <000401d24048$3b176e60$b1464b20$@classiccmp.org> <582D33E2.4080107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > If the buyer is not "confirmed" or it is an international transaction, PayPal > often requires the seller to accept the transaction. Paypal has heard, hasn't it, that in about 1959, Alaska was made into a state? From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Nov 16 22:44:17 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:44:17 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582D35A1.6040501@pico-systems.com> On 11/16/2016 10:10 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "Note the "tube audio" folks gravitate to that stuff and tend to cause > seriously sick prices, because tubes." > > > FYI - I've installed dozens of the new-production CE / Mallory caps, all of > them in the 350-525V range. Zero complaints, zero comebacks, in as long as > I've installed them. For those of us in that field, they're like a gift > from the gods. > Vintage tube audio doesn't need to get involved, except for the old-style twist-lock Mallory cap design. All the off-line switching supplies use either 250 V (120 supply only) or 400+ (120/240 supply) capacitors as the main input filter. So, at least, capacitors in that voltage range are STILL being made, and are in all computers, TVs and other home appliances. (Yes, I know the OP needed a 30 V cap.) So, some other tube gear replacement parts may be scarcer than hen's teeth, but the HV caps are easily available. Jon From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Nov 16 23:37:16 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 21:37:16 -0800 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: <582D35A1.6040501@pico-systems.com> References: <582D35A1.6040501@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Nov-16, at 8:44 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/16/2016 10:10 PM, drlegendre . wrote: >> "Note the "tube audio" folks gravitate to that stuff and tend to cause >> seriously sick prices, because tubes." >> >> >> FYI - I've installed dozens of the new-production CE / Mallory caps, all of >> them in the 350-525V range. Zero complaints, zero comebacks, in as long as >> I've installed them. For those of us in that field, they're like a gift >> from the gods. >> > Vintage tube audio doesn't need to get involved, except for the old-style twist-lock Mallory cap design. > All the off-line switching supplies use either 250 V (120 supply only) or 400+ (120/240 supply) capacitors as the main input filter. So, at least, capacitors in that voltage range are STILL being made, and are in all computers, TVs and other home appliances. (Yes, I know the OP needed a 30 V cap.) > > So, some other tube gear replacement parts may be scarcer than hen's teeth, but the HV caps are easily available. (tending off-topic . . ) As long as one is being careful about the size (capacitance) of the replacements. IME, I've found limited benefit in trying to use/source/scavenge switching-supply caps for tube gear. The mains-side filter caps for switching supplies tend to be large in capacitance (100-200 and > uF), and typically are not suitable for replacing the ~ 8-40uF B+ filter caps in vintage tube electronics that have tube rectifiers. Maybe there are smaller ones in the smaller switching supplies around these days, I haven't looked at those recently. From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Nov 16 17:30:13 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 15:30:13 -0800 Subject: HP 6954A Multiprogrammer Message-ID: I just picked one of these up the 1991 catalog describes HP 6954A Features A Rugged Rack-mountable Test System in a Single Unit Built-in HP 9000 Series 310 or Series 332 Computer. and 20 Megabyte Hard Disc Includes BASIC and HP 14753A CAT Programming Package HP-IB, HP-HIL, RS-232, Audio and Video Interfaces .... Anyone have a manual on this guy ? So far I can't find where the hard drive goes, was it internal or external via GPIB ? BTW mine is older, the CPU is a 310 (98561-66515) -pete From isking at uw.edu Thu Nov 17 00:28:17 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:28:17 -0800 Subject: A computer collection in NL In-Reply-To: References: <57003B68.4040304@telegraphics.com.au> <201604022258.SAA18062@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <20160403061935.CC5C.5C4F47F8@xenu.pl> <201604031953.PAA07610@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <49F0C6CB121442A5891E3F4FB730FF81@310e2> <5701809A.9090207@sydex.com> <201604040148.VAA10063@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PYM3WI1Z6Y00CTJF@beyondthepale.ie> <066C1377160E47739E4BB0F270B94762@310e2> <201604041448.KAA25950@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <4DF5AC0B22DE48E08342556654CAC911@310e2> <5702AD76.6060701@sbcglobal.net> <66194541-BBAB-48A7-9F15-5242D2855F72@shiresoft.com> <5702CCDF.3090404@sbcglobal.net> <01ec01d18eb0$666a3600$333ea200$@com> <57038044.9050203@ntlworld.com> <081501d18f51$891ff170$9b5fd450$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Apr 5, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > I realize that I have not done much (any) "advertisement" ... > > I have my collection in a "room" of some 2250 sq. feet (200 m2). > Almost all PDP-11 models (UNIBUS and QBUS), a few VAX4000's, VLC4000, > and a VAX-11/750. Also several DEC peripherals, disk, tape, printer, > and terminals. Furthere, there is a DG NOVA3, NOVA4 and an HP 21MX. > All you see on www.pdp-11.nl can be seen in "real", and there is > probably a bit more ... > I am *not* saying that everything is working, au contraire! After many > years of collecting I am now trying to get everything working. A very > slow process I've learned! > > If you are visiting The Netherlands you are welcome to my "Home of > Famous Iron". I live in the southern part, near Philips headquarters > city Eindhoven. > All I ask, if possible, is that I get a business card from you ;-) > > greetz, > - Henk > Hi Henk, Well, I'm in The Netherlands, but not 'in the southern part' - rather, I'm in Leiden at an academic workshop. Oh well, closer.... I'll see your collection someday! Cheers -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 00:47:21 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 22:47:21 -0800 Subject: HP 6954A Multiprogrammer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > I just picked one of these up the 1991 catalog describes > > HP 6954A Features > > A Rugged Rack-mountable Test System in a Single Unit Built-in > HP 9000 Series 310 or Series 332 Computer. and 20 Megabyte > Hard Disc Includes BASIC and HP 14753A CAT Programming > Package HP-IB, HP-HIL, RS-232, Audio and Video Interfaces .... > > Anyone have a manual on this guy ? > > So far I can't find where the hard drive goes, was it internal or > external via GPIB ? > > BTW mine is older, the CPU is a 310 (98561-66515) > > -pete http://www.hpmuseum.net/ has a scan of the 06954-90003 Getting Started Guide. From a very quick browse it points out the disc controller board, but I didn't see a figure that shows the actual drive. What you probably want is a copy of the 06954-90001 Service Manual if that is available anywhere. From michael.newton at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:34:40 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:34:40 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. M. On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 9:17 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Are you saying there is a -12V test point and there is nothing there ? > > If +5 is 400mV high, that's not dangerous but it is something I'd take care > of first. > > -pete > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 8:35 PM, Michael Newton > wrote: > > > Thanks for the encouragement. I'm going in. > > > > I found test points on the power supply/motor driver board as detailed in > > Chapter 12 of that manual. > > > > +5v, +12v, +15v, +42v and +85v are all there (and all .4v high or so) > > > > But there is no -12v. That seems relevant. > > > > The capacitors all look OK to the naked eye. > > > > Actually diagnosing and repairing electronics is new territory for me, > but > > I suppose this is where I read up, maybe pull that board out, and start > > testing diodes and caps. > > > > Thanks again Alexandre - and if you or anyone else has any clues to > narrow > > it down, please share. > > > > M. > > > > > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 11, 2016 at 3:38 PM, Alexandre Souza < > > alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > > How is the power supply? All rails ok? Input/output capacitors not > bulged > > > nor leaked? > > > > > > 2016-11-11 21:36 GMT-02:00 Michael Newton : > > > > > > > I acquired a working HP Draftmaster RX (HP part # 7596B). > > > > > > > > An awesome machine, 36" roll feed and 8 pens, complete with several > pen > > > > carousels, user manual, and hundreds of working pens. > > > > > > > > I was very excited to make a splash in the art world with this > thing. I > > > did > > > > get it to perfectly draw a 3 color demo page from the front panel. > > > > > > > > Thereafter it started displaying errors on the display such as "200" > > > which > > > > means it needs "mechanical calibration". > > > > > > > > Thanks to hpmuseum.net I acquired the service manual > > > > , which catalogs > > many > > > > calibrations and self-tests to run from the front panel, including > the > > > > aforementioned "mechanical calibration". > > > > > > > > So I power up with the appropriate front panel keys depressed to run > > this > > > > calibration. The paper drive motor starts making noise, but the paper > > > > rollers aren't turning, and the LCD display is blank. > > > > > > > > Since that moment, the LCD display is always blank so it is > currently a > > > > boat anchor. > > > > > > > > It's a terribly sad state of affairs. I have basic electronics and > > > > mechanical skills and an oscilloscope so following the > troubleshooting > > > > procedures in the manual I might be able to identify a part to > replace. > > > But > > > > of course, parts for sale online are are rare, expensive, used and > > > probably > > > > untested. > > > > > > > > Probably better would be lower-level repair of whatever parts are > > faulty > > > > but that's probably more than I can manage at my skill level. > > > > > > > > I'm in Seattle, WA. Is there anyone alive in the pacific NW who will > > pay > > > a > > > > visit and help me fix this thing? (The only company I found that > admits > > > to > > > > working on pen plotters is 360tech in Austin, TX.) > > > > > > > > Or someone elsewhere I could ship electronics parts to for test and > > > repair? > > > > Or provide guidance, or help in any form at all? > > > > > > > > thanks > > > > M. > > > > > > > > > > > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:42:05 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 01:42:05 -0600 Subject: SPRAGUE capacitor for Tektronix 4051. In-Reply-To: References: <582D35A1.6040501@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: "The mains-side filter caps for switching supplies tend to be large in capacitance (100-200 and > uF), and typically are not suitable for replacing the ~ 8-40uF B+ filter caps in vintage tube electronics that have tube rectifiers." This is true. All of the common vacuum diode rectifiers have fairly significant limitations, for the 1st cap in a cap-input PSU. Devices like the 5U4 and 5AR4 might tolerate as much as 40-80uF at the first pole (which is still fairly light), while others such as 5V4 might only tolerate as little 4uF. Point of my post - it seems as if the tube audio folks were being blamed and/or shamed for the cost of high-voltage electrolytics.. and if anything, they keep both the volume and demand up, and the prices reasonable. On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 11:37 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Nov-16, at 8:44 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 11/16/2016 10:10 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > >> "Note the "tube audio" folks gravitate to that stuff and tend to cause > >> seriously sick prices, because tubes." > >> > >> > >> FYI - I've installed dozens of the new-production CE / Mallory caps, > all of > >> them in the 350-525V range. Zero complaints, zero comebacks, in as long > as > >> I've installed them. For those of us in that field, they're like a gift > >> from the gods. > >> > > Vintage tube audio doesn't need to get involved, except for the > old-style twist-lock Mallory cap design. > > All the off-line switching supplies use either 250 V (120 supply only) > or 400+ (120/240 supply) capacitors as the main input filter. So, at least, > capacitors in that voltage range are STILL being made, and are in all > computers, TVs and other home appliances. (Yes, I know the OP needed a 30 > V cap.) > > > > So, some other tube gear replacement parts may be scarcer than hen's > teeth, but the HV caps are easily available. > > (tending off-topic . . ) > > As long as one is being careful about the size (capacitance) of the > replacements. > IME, I've found limited benefit in trying to use/source/scavenge > switching-supply caps for tube gear. > > The mains-side filter caps for switching supplies tend to be large in > capacitance (100-200 and > uF), and typically are not suitable for > replacing the ~ 8-40uF B+ filter caps in vintage tube electronics that have > tube rectifiers. > > Maybe there are smaller ones in the smaller switching supplies around > these days, I haven't looked at those recently. From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 01:57:20 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 16 Nov 2016 23:57:20 -0800 Subject: TI 990/189 debugging Message-ID: <6b532563-746d-19b4-7750-26e7d5d50e00@gmail.com> Hi all -- Got myself a TI-990/189 single-board computer based around the TMS9980 microprocessor (actually, a variant of it, the MP9529, which apparently differs only in that it has a lower maximum clock and only requires Vdd of 9.3V or so...) It was advertised as "it looks like it's working, but who knows" and so of course it arrived and it's dead. It powers up and nothing appears on the display, and the CR1-CR4 and SHIFT LEDs are illuminated. No response whatsoever. I've spent some time yesterday and today probing the thing and I think the CPU is dead, but I wanted to run it past the braintrust here in case anyone has any experience with the 9980... Here's what I see: Voltages are all nominal on the +12, +5 and -5 supply; +5 and -5 are present at the CPU, as is 9.3V for the VDD. At the CPU: - CKIN is clocking at the right rate, the phi3 clock generated by the CPU is also correct. - IAQ is not pulsing, so the CPU is not fetching instructions - The Address and Data lines are all zeros with no activity whatsoever - HOLDA is low, -HOLD is high (so the CPU is not being held) - READY is high - MEMEN is low (so no memory accesses are taking place) - INT0 through INT2 is 010 (which indicates that a LOAD interrupt is active, more on this later) I have verified that the POWERGOOD signal is going high after about a second after power-on, as expected (this causes things on the board to RESET appropriately). This in turn causes the -LOAD signal from the Power Up/Reset circuit to go low, which causes INT 1 to go high. (This is later supposed to be reset, once the CPU's IAQ line clocks after the first instruction is executed, but since that's dead, well, nothing happens.) Based on this, I believe the CPU to be faulty. Anyone have any thoughts on this? Given the VDD difference (12V vs 9.3V), I don't think a standard TMS9980 will work; the MP9529 seems to be difficult to source, but it shouldn't be hard to get 12V to the CPU... Thanks, Josh From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 17 02:10:04 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 00:10:04 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. Looking at: 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be truncated. The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of course the power supply schematic is missing. (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on the hpmuseum pages.) There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, or even a zener regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry between there and the actual -12 output of the supply. - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the reg vs output. - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the problem. - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 05:05:21 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 04:05:21 -0700 Subject: TI 990/189 debugging In-Reply-To: <6b532563-746d-19b4-7750-26e7d5d50e00@gmail.com> References: <6b532563-746d-19b4-7750-26e7d5d50e00@gmail.com> Message-ID: 9.3V might actually work fine for a TMS9980, even though it's below spec. It's not going to damage the part, so it may be worth a try before modifying the board for 12V to the CPU socket. In NMOS digital parts that predate depletion loads, Vdd needs to be significantly higher than the most positive logic level in order to bias the enhancement nFET used for the loads (pull-ups). The Vdd voltage doesn't have to have a precise value, but it needs to be somewhat more than the FET gate threshold above the most positive logic level, and below the breakdown voltage. The higher the Vdd voltage (below breakdown), the faster the pullup will operate, so running below spec will reduce the maximum speed at which the part will operate. This is also dependent on temperature. The part is spec'd for operation over a fairly wide temperature range (even if only "commercial" rated). Since the logic high level is no more than 5.0V, and generally somewhat less, a Vdd of 9.3V is probably more than adequate at room temperature, but may fail at temperature extremes. The MP9529 is a "selected" TMS9980. In most contexts, a "selected" IC is one that has been tested and found to meet specifications more stringent than the normal specifications. However, in this case I think the MP9529 might actually be "selected" in the sense of being tested to *lower* specifications than a standard TMS9980. It's unclear why they would want to use the lower Vdd, except possibly to reduce power consumption. With the introduction of depletion loads in later NMOS ICs, generally starting around 1976, and becoming ubiquitous by 1980, the requirement for a supply above +5V was eliminated. Similarly, by adding an on-chip substrate bias generator, the need for an externally supplied substrate bias voltage (Vbb, typically -5V) was removed. From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 08:54:10 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 08:54:10 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 Message-ID: Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music". Thanks! Kyle From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:08:31 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:08:31 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate > one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled > "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music". > > Thanks! > > Kyle > I wish...but there may be an alternative. There is a 1970 book called "The Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject. Edited by Harry B. Lincoln. It is very possible that the Datamation article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on online.. Mr Degnan From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:26:32 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:26:32 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I wish...but there may be an alternative. There is a 1970 book called "The > Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject. > Edited by Harry B. Lincoln. It is very possible that the Datamation > article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on > online.. Thanks Bill. Just ordered a copy from Amazon. I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and pieces referencing it online. For instance, I found this project: https://github.com/jawknee/upbhh But, alas...there doesn't seem to be any snippets of actual code from the album there. The code is described in some detail here too: http://charlesames.net/glossary/linear-music-code.html Again, no actual code. Bummer. Kyle From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:30:26 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:30:26 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:26 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > > > I wish...but there may be an alternative. There is a 1970 book called > "The > > Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject. > > Edited by Harry B. Lincoln. It is very possible that the Datamation > > article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale > on > > online.. > > > Thanks Bill. Just ordered a copy from Amazon. > > I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and > wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a > PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and > pieces referencing it online. > > For instance, I found this project: https://github.com/jawknee/upbhh > > But, alas...there doesn't seem to be any snippets of actual code from the > album there. > > The code is described in some detail here too: > http://charlesames.net/glossary/linear-music-code.html > > Again, no actual code. Bummer. > > Kyle > I look forward to the results of your project. There is a pipe organ event every year near my home at Longwood Gardens. They have an awesome pipe organ there, it might be the 2nd or 3rd largest in the world. Spectacular. They actively maintain it, parts pieces, etc. People come from all over the world to play it and do recitals. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 09:39:42 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 07:39:42 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0ce76b16-23a1-5a99-4b15-f2449da4ed5b@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/16 7:26 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and > wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a > PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and > pieces referencing it online. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unplayed_by_Human_Hands https://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1978-02/ I think there is a paper in the DECUS proceedings as well You might be interested in knowing Prentiss is still around and the original tapes along with several songs that weren't on the album were digitized by a friend of mine about five years ago. I have that issue scanned, I'll put it up under pdp8/music later today From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 09:46:36 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 09:46:36 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <0ce76b16-23a1-5a99-4b15-f2449da4ed5b@bitsavers.org> References: <0ce76b16-23a1-5a99-4b15-f2449da4ed5b@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > https://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1978-02/ > > I think there is a paper in the DECUS proceedings as well > > > You might be interested in knowing Prentiss is still around and the > original tapes > along with several songs that weren't on the album were digitized by a > friend of > mine about five years ago. > > I have that issue scanned, I'll put it up under pdp8/music later today > Thank you, Al! I did not know about the Kilobaud article; that's exactly along the lines of what I was hoping to find! Glad to hear the tapes have been saved. I have a 1965 Hammond organ and a 1915 player piano that I'd love to join together via a (completely reversible) computer interface. Perhaps a project for another decade, but we'll see. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 10:18:01 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:18:01 -0500 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! Message-ID: Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA, invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'. Happy computing! Murray :) From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 10:10:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 11:10:56 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > >> >> I wish...but there may be an alternative. There is a 1970 book called "The >> Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject. >> Edited by Harry B. Lincoln. It is very possible that the Datamation >> article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on >> online.. > > > Thanks Bill. Just ordered a copy from Amazon. > > I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and > wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a > PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and > pieces referencing it online. > > For instance, I found this project: https://github.com/jawknee/upbhh > > But, alas...there doesn't seem to be any snippets of actual code from the > album there. > > The code is described in some detail here too: > http://charlesames.net/glossary/linear-music-code.html > > Again, no actual code. Bummer. Interesting. From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of Illinois by Sherwin Gooch. The hardware is described in great detail (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675. The software includes a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced but different in details. I don't know if one borred from the other or if they are independent inventions. (Sherwin might remember.) A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals. It had a similar music code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for music input with real time display of the score, as well as score printing. Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today. paul From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Thu Nov 17 11:37:38 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:37:38 +0100 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote: > Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very > important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA, > invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for > a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'. > > Happy computing! > > Murray :) > Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968. Jos From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Nov 17 12:08:59 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:08:59 +0100 (CET) Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, jos wrote: > On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very >> important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA, >> invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for >> a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'. > Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968. :-D BTW there will be a talk here with Rainer Mallebrein on Dec. 5, topic "50 years computers with mouse". He also was a guest of our museum a few years ago, and he gave us a deflection unit of the SIG 100 (the display used with the RKS 100-86). Christian From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Nov 17 12:26:06 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:26:06 -0800 (PST) Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, jos wrote: > Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968. and MARKETED it! "Invention" and "FIRST" are always on shaky ground in any real historical research. Telefunken didn't consider it important enough to patent. Most REAL inventors consider their projects to be faar too "obvious" to patent them. Wikipedia does mention the rollkugel! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_mouse Picture of Engelbart's hand holding mouse, does however still call his "first". (I just made a correction to the Wikipedia article, where it listed the original Macintosh as 1994!) There are NUMEROUS changes needed to the article, but I figured that THAT one was at least not disputable. "Microsoft's mouse shipped in 1983, thus beginning Microsoft hardware." If "Microsoft hardware" is intended to be a proper noun for NAME of a division, then "hardware" should be capitalized. Otherwise, what happened to history of the Microsoft Z80 Softcard, which was an amazingly successful venture into hardware, and is even rumored to be WHY certain folk at IBM mistakenly thought that Microsoft was the source for CP/M. (no citations available) "However, the mouse remained relatively obscure until the appearance of the Macintosh 128K (which included an updated version of the Lisa Mouse) in 1994,[24] and of the Amiga 1000 and the Atari ST in 1985." is arguably correct (other than the Mac date listed!) Mice were around, but the general public (Wikipedia AUTHORS?) didn't notice them until Mac. Who has some time to go clean up Wikipedia? From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 12:43:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:43:00 -0800 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <81f81f95-9b7b-a124-7cf8-fbef22b9bf19@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/16 10:26 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Who has some time to go clean up Wikipedia? > No one Also, the Englebart mouse is two potentiometers mounted at a right angle so it only worked in a confined space. I need to dig my vaccuum-formed case SRI mouse and keyset out and take pictures of them. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:52:10 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:52:10 +0100 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. Message-ID: A guy in Sweden made the effort to image the install media for DNIX 5.3 and 5.12 as well as ABCenix 5.12. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dnix-imd.tar.bz2 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/ABCnix.tar.bz2 These are for computers made by DIAB (later part of Bull) DS90 and Luxor ABC1600 (branded Luxor but developed by DIAB). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataindustrier_AB https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_1600 They all were 68k based. The early DS90 had 68010 + 68451 MMU. The ABC1600 had 68008 and some homebuilt MMU. The ABC1600 is quite a nice machine with 768x1024 b/w portrait screen that can be twisted into landscape. It has a simple windowing system. Actually half of the hardware that make up the system is the graphics board. Unfortunately the 68008 makes it quite weak. I hope that the imaged disk can end up in a safer place than my dropbox, for example Bitsavers... Thanks Jonas Malm for doing the disk images (I am just the messanger)! /Mattis From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 12:59:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 10:59:29 -0800 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <69544107-10f0-a3ab-b61d-a1b4427f5312@bitsavers.org> I've uploaded them to bitsavers.org/bits/DIAB I should get my Colex 68K unix bits pulled together It was a VME 80186 MSDOS system that had a 68000/68451 board grafted onto it to run Unisoft Unix On 11/17/16 10:52 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > A guy in Sweden made the effort to image the install media for DNIX 5.3 and 5.12 as well as ABCenix 5.12. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dnix-imd.tar.bz2 > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/ABCnix.tar.bz2 > > > These are for computers made by DIAB (later part of Bull) DS90 and Luxor ABC1600 (branded Luxor but developed by DIAB). > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataindustrier_AB > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_1600 > > They all were 68k based. The early DS90 had 68010 + 68451 MMU. The ABC1600 had 68008 and some homebuilt MMU. The ABC1600 > is quite a nice machine with 768x1024 b/w portrait screen that can be twisted into landscape. It has a simple windowing > system. Actually half of the hardware that make up the system is the graphics board. Unfortunately the 68008 makes it > quite weak. > > I hope that the imaged disk can end up in a safer place than my dropbox, for example Bitsavers... > > Thanks Jonas Malm for doing the disk images (I am just the messanger)! > > /Mattis From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 13:20:57 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:20:57 +0000 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <81f81f95-9b7b-a124-7cf8-fbef22b9bf19@bitsavers.org> References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> <81f81f95-9b7b-a124-7cf8-fbef22b9bf19@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: > > Also, the Englebart mouse is two potentiometers mounted at a right angle > so it only worked in a confined space. As an aside, didn't the much later Radio Shack mouse for the CoCo work like that? It plugged into the joystick port, and AFAIK needed no special software. -tony From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Nov 17 08:30:58 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 06:30:58 -0800 Subject: HP 6954A Multiprogrammer In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I took the thing apart last night. There is no room for an internal disk drive. I'll take photo's and post them by the weekend. Overall the computer side is mostly a typical 9000/200/300 chassis. The CPU is a unmodified early generation 310 w/1MB+Monochrome. -pete On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 10:47 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Nov 16, 2016 at 3:30 PM, Pete Lancashire > wrote: > > I just picked one of these up the 1991 catalog describes > > > > HP 6954A Features > > > > A Rugged Rack-mountable Test System in a Single Unit Built-in > > HP 9000 Series 310 or Series 332 Computer. and 20 Megabyte > > Hard Disc Includes BASIC and HP 14753A CAT Programming > > Package HP-IB, HP-HIL, RS-232, Audio and Video Interfaces .... > > > > Anyone have a manual on this guy ? > > > > So far I can't find where the hard drive goes, was it internal or > > external via GPIB ? > > > > BTW mine is older, the CPU is a 310 (98561-66515) > > > > -pete > > http://www.hpmuseum.net/ has a scan of the 06954-90003 Getting Started > Guide. From a very quick browse it points out the disc controller > board, but I didn't see a figure that shows the actual drive. > > What you probably want is a copy of the 06954-90001 Service Manual if > that is available anywhere. > > From ed.spittles at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 12:42:10 2016 From: ed.spittles at gmail.com (Ed Spittles) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:42:10 +0000 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Signal boosting (For me, Eric's post landed in the naughty corner) On 16 November 2016 at 00:19, Eric Smith wrote: > Has anyone determined what 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials are used by > the National Semiconductor hard disk controllers? The DP8496/97 allows > choice of hard-wired 16-bit CRC, or 32-bit, 48-bit, or 56-bit ECC. The > 32-bit ECC is a common polynomial known as the Glover polynomial, and it's > the same one used by WD and others. However, National was apparently > extremely proud of the 48-bit and 56-bit polynomials they chose, and the > data sheets say that they require a license agreement with National. > > The more common DP8466 supports 32-bit 48-bit, but allows the user to > configure the polynomial. The data sheet states that National's 48-bit > polynomial is available under license. > > WD wasn't as proud of their 56-bit polynomial; it's given in the WD42C22 > data sheet. It doesn't seem to match National Semicondutor's 56-bit > polynomial. > From RichA at livingcomputers.org Thu Nov 17 13:20:35 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 19:20:35 +0000 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE0A29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: jos Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 9:38 AM > On 17.11.2016 17:18, Murray McCullough wrote: >> Today in the age of pointer-graphics, ie., using a mouse, is a very >> important day: Nov. 17, 1970, Doug Engelbart, of SRI, Menlo Park, CA, >> invented the mouse or granted a patent for "X-Yposition indictator for >> a grahics display." BTW he doesn't know who coined the word 'mouse'. > Of course Telefunken had already a mouse, a.k.a. Rollkugel, in 1968. Of course, the so-called Mother of All Demos was presented at FJCC on 9 December 1968, and included the mouse and the chord keyboard. Unlike the Telefunken mouse, the Engelbart mouse was not an inverted trackball. I think arguing "priority" is a pointless exercise. In the real world, the mouse came to the fore with the Xerox Alto, where its use was inspired by Engelbart, not Telefunken, and it spread to Lisp Machines, Lisa and Macintosh computers, and beyond, from there. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 Cell: (206) 465-2916 Desk: (206) 342-2239 http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 13:43:18 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:43:18 -0500 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE0A29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <58a49f99-15f6-9507-8d49-61a0ce42fed3@greenmail.ch> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE0A29@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <4A6018FD-1661-4264-9A11-36960246BDFD@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 2:20 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > > ... > I think arguing "priority" is a pointless exercise. In the real world, the > mouse came to the fore with the Xerox Alto, where its use was inspired by > Engelbart, not Telefunken, and it spread to Lisp Machines, Lisa and Macintosh > computers, and beyond, from there. That's a good point for history of inventions generally. Take printing; it was arguably invented in China first, but independently in Germany later. The later one is the one that took hold world-wide. For that matter, writing; invented independently in at least three if not four places, but out of those only two produced offspring that spread and flourished. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 14:44:55 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:44:55 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Interesting. From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the > music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of > Illinois by Sherwin Gooch. The hardware is described in great detail > (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675. The software includes > a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced > but different in details. I don't know if one borred from the other or if > they are independent inventions. (Sherwin might remember.) > > A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, > controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals. It had a similar music > code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for > music input with real time display of the score, as well as score > printing. Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's > continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard > of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today. > I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45 entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems, I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early synthesizers, etc. Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that. Kyle From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 14:52:47 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:52:47 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <60610F70-8E17-4F40-86F5-0A27759B6984@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >> >> Interesting. From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the >> music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of >> Illinois by Sherwin Gooch. The hardware is described in great detail >> (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675. The software includes >> a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced >> but different in details. I don't know if one borred from the other or if >> they are independent inventions. (Sherwin might remember.) >> >> A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, >> controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals. It had a similar music >> code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for >> music input with real time display of the score, as well as score >> printing. Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's >> continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard >> of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today. >> > > I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess > that's perhaps unlikely. Sound samples of the PLATO devices? I have somewhere an audio file made from a tape recording of the earlier one (the GSW, 4 channel square wave). And it's supported in the PLATO terminal emulator that talks to the Cyber1.org PLATO system. That almost certainly doesn't exactly reproduce the wave form; I haven't attempted to simulate the impulse response of the output circuit though I could certainly give that a try. As for the later device, I don't have any recordings but they might exist. Sherwin Gooch would be the most likely source, along with Lippold Haken. paul From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 17 14:53:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:53:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! Message-ID: <20161117205333.56F6F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > Who has some time to go clean up Wikipedia? I'll get right on it ... as soon as I finish bailing out the ocean with a spoon. Wikipedia - proof that if you give a million monkeys keyboards, they can create something that vaguely resembles an encyclopaedia. Noel (who was an early Wikipediast, until the Marching Morons arrived) From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 14:57:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 12:57:35 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > are there any other > computer music albums out there? yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label From coryheisterkamp at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:01:56 2016 From: coryheisterkamp at gmail.com (Cory Heisterkamp) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:01:56 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > are there any other > > computer music albums out there? > > yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label > > > Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:02:54 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:02:54 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > are there any other > > computer music albums out there? > > yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label > Cool, thanks! I've heard of Nonesuch before, probably from Rifkin's Scott Joplin album. Can you recommend any particular computer music titles? I'm trying to find ones specifically composed for computers, not a human playing a synthesizer. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 15:02:27 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:02:27 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <9E22112A-799A-40EC-8268-6B05F8F3BE9A@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: >> are there any other >> computer music albums out there? > > yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a computer music textbook. One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone scale, i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes). I don't remember the title, unfortunately. paul From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:03:21 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:03:21 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Cory Heisterkamp wrote: > > Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C > Good catch! I'll see if I can find a copy. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 15:03:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:03:54 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <9E22112A-799A-40EC-8268-6B05F8F3BE9A@comcast.net> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <9E22112A-799A-40EC-8268-6B05F8F3BE9A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <35FFE84D-C6B3-48F6-AC64-BCFE2AF4D5E5@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > >> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> >> >> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: >>> are there any other >>> computer music albums out there? >> >> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label > > In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a computer music textbook. One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone scale, i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes). > > I don't remember the title, unfortunately. This is the piece I mentioned, I believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60oxsizDxaQ paul From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:08:58 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 13:08:58 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > > > Interesting. From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the > > music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of > > Illinois by Sherwin Gooch. The hardware is described in great detail > > (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675. The software > includes > > a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced > > but different in details. I don't know if one borred from the other or > if > > they are independent inventions. (Sherwin might remember.) > > > > A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, > > controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals. It had a similar > music > > code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for > > music input with real time display of the score, as well as score > > printing. Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's > > continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard > > of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today. > > > > I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess > that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other > computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer > Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the > University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45 > entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems, > > I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by > a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early > synthesizers, etc. > I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or so): https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054. If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording. It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI. I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here: http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/ As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto. I have just enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but there's just enough information missing to make it difficult... - Josh > > Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that. > > Kyle > From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:15:21 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:15:21 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <35FFE84D-C6B3-48F6-AC64-BCFE2AF4D5E5@comcast.net> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <9E22112A-799A-40EC-8268-6B05F8F3BE9A@comcast.net> <35FFE84D-C6B3-48F6-AC64-BCFE2AF4D5E5@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > This is the piece I mentioned, I believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch? > v=60oxsizDxaQ That's quite eerie sounding! From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 15:13:20 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:13:20 -0600 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or > so): > https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From- > The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054. > If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording. > > It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard > to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI. > Well, uh...that's certainly a little too avant-garde for my tastes, hah! But that definitely fits the bill otherwise. > > I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel > synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here: > http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/ > > As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ > keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto. I have just > enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but > there's just enough information missing to make it difficult... That'll be very nice to see once you get that going! From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 17 16:04:50 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:04:50 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or > so): > https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054. > If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording. Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV. ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I. According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2. > It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard > to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Nov 17 16:20:08 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 17:20:08 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or >> so): >> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054. >> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording. > > Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV. > > ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I. > According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2. Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? I vaguely remember hearing that ILLIAC I had been used to make music. ILLIAC IV was designed at U of I and was originally intended to be located there; they even built a high-security building for it (CAC). But in the end DoD didn't like all those unruly students so they installed at at Ames instead. The building ended up being used for an ARPAnet node instead. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 16:26:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:26:46 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <738693f4-2f3c-7406-bd57-cac0c28090ff@bitsavers.org> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? correct. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 16:30:21 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:30:21 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <59592817-ffdc-4d14-5d4d-dff977ffc95f@sydex.com> I remember that CDC used to put on a show for Navy brass back in the 60s using, tape drives and printers for the rendition of "Anchors Aweigh". ISTR that it was a 1604 used for this, but may also have been a 3800. The memory dulls with time. I believe there was also a similar rendition of "The Stars and Stripes Forever". Very impressive to watch and hear. Do any recordings exist of these? --Chuck From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 16:34:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:34:02 -0800 Subject: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> References: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: <77f597e6-2272-38d3-fd1a-920b82f07333@bitsavers.org> Fred, could you make these files readable, please On 11/15/16 11:44 AM, Fred Jan Kraan wrote: > > Forgot the URL: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/NCD/ > > -------- Forwarded Message -------- > Subject: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 > Date: Tue, 15 Nov 2016 20:42:16 +0100 > From: Fred Jan Kraan > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Hi, > > Some 20 years ago I briefly had some NCD16's and found some of the tarred images and software from those days. Hopefully > it survived the various media transfers. > > > Fred Jan From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:33:36 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 15:33:36 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the hardware. The common "Glover" 32-bit polynomial was: x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0 WD's 56-bit polynomial was x^56 + x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 + x^0 Assuming that National's 56-bit polynomials don't use any fewer terms than the 32-bit, nor any more terms than the WD 56-bit, there are not quite 8 billion possibilities to brute-force. x^n and x^0 are always used, so the size of the search space is comb(55,9) + comb(55,8) + comb(55, 7). That would take to long to brute-force search in software on a general purpose CPU, so I think I'd have to code it for a GPU or FPGA. There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I haven't yet given it a lot of thought. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Nov 17 16:45:17 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:45:17 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <738693f4-2f3c-7406-bd57-cac0c28090ff@bitsavers.org> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> <738693f4-2f3c-7406-bd57-cac0c28090ff@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <2EB7A998-8E31-4F2C-944F-4F6DCFABB4F0@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? > > correct. > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller. (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.) Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at least are inconsistent). From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 16:51:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:51:40 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <2EB7A998-8E31-4F2C-944F-4F6DCFABB4F0@cs.ubc.ca> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> <738693f4-2f3c-7406-bd57-cac0c28090ff@bitsavers.org> <2EB7A998-8E31-4F2C-944F-4F6DCFABB4F0@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <23aa9f99-bebc-48b2-4922-a64dc2257579@bitsavers.org> http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433 http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.&qt=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format is an interesting search On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? >> >> correct. >> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite > > > From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller. > (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.) > > Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at least are inconsistent). > From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 16:54:11 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 14:54:11 -0800 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: <23aa9f99-bebc-48b2-4922-a64dc2257579@bitsavers.org> References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <88477D6F-5701-410D-8AB8-E6CA58D6248C@cs.ubc.ca> <738693f4-2f3c-7406-bd57-cac0c28090ff@bitsavers.org> <2EB7A998-8E31-4F2C-944F-4F6DCFABB4F0@cs.ubc.ca> <23aa9f99-bebc-48b2-4922-a64dc2257579@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6c88cbf2-cb5c-bea6-f67f-34b053b88b00@bitsavers.org> and http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102651543 On 11/17/16 2:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433 > > http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.&qt=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format > > is an interesting search > > > On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >>> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? >>> >>> correct. >>> >>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite >> >> >> From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller. >> (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.) >> >> Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at least are inconsistent). >> > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 17 16:59:46 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:59:46 +0000 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: Do you have working hardware? A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's and different data lengths. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 2:33:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the hardware. The common "Glover" 32-bit polynomial was: x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0 WD's 56-bit polynomial was x^56 + x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 + x^0 Assuming that National's 56-bit polynomials don't use any fewer terms than the 32-bit, nor any more terms than the WD 56-bit, there are not quite 8 billion possibilities to brute-force. x^n and x^0 are always used, so the size of the search space is comb(55,9) + comb(55,8) + comb(55, 7). That would take to long to brute-force search in software on a general purpose CPU, so I think I'd have to code it for a GPU or FPGA. There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I haven't yet given it a lot of thought. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 17:07:40 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:07:40 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, dwight wrote: > Do you have working hardware? > No, only a drive that 48-bit ECC. I don't know whether it used a National Semiconductor based controller, but it doesn't use the Western Digital polynomial, so NS is my first guess. If it used the DP8466, it might have used the NS Sooper-Sekrit 48-bit polynomial, or some other polynomial. > A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's and different data lengths. If I got my hands on a DP8496 or DP8497, or a SCSI drive containing one of them, I might be able to hack up something like you describe in order to reverse-engineer the polynomials. From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 17 18:49:18 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 16:49:18 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/17/2016 02:59 PM, dwight wrote: > Do you have working hardware? > > A lot can be deduced by using simple data, like all 0's > > and different data lengths. Perhaps there's something useful here: http://reveng.sourceforge.net/ I've used the code for oddball floppy CRCs. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 19:59:53 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:59:53 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 5:49 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Perhaps there's something useful here: > http://reveng.sourceforge.net/ > I wrote something like that back in the mid-1990s, though not as polished. The problem is the exponential increase in search space. Polynomials beyond order 32 quickly become intractable on general-purpose CPUs. From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 17 20:54:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 18:54:45 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/17/16 3:07 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:59 PM, dwight wrote: > >> Do you have working hardware? >> > > No, only a drive that 48-bit ECC. MFM? For a while, I was collecting ISA controllers that weren't adaptec, wd, dtc, or omti for the uncommon controllers. I just bought a multibus hd/flpy board for the signetics 68454 on it. I may have a board with a 8466. If nothing else, there are a few domestic 8466 chip pulls on eBay for $13 that maybe you could decap or push a bitstream into. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 17 21:09:34 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:09:34 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161118030934.C2EA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Subject: Does anyone actually have a KT11-B? > Date: Fri Sep 30 19:04:47 CDT 2016 > the ones shown in the images show it to be (mostly) an RK11-C. > ... > I say "mostly" because there appear to be extra cards on the right hand > end; whether those are some sort of upgrade to the RK11-C, or whether > someone just stored spare Flip Chips out there, I have no idea. So this mystery has been solved (sort of). According to some drawings I have, there is apparently something called a "Double Buffer Disk Control" variant of the RK11-C. I looked online, but there was nothing about it there, and the RK11-C Engineering Drawings at BitSavers don't cover this variant. Does anyone out there have one of these? Noel From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Thu Nov 17 21:15:41 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:15:41 -0500 Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C In-Reply-To: <20161118030934.C2EA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161118030934.C2EA318C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:09 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Subject: Does anyone actually have a KT11-B? > > Date: Fri Sep 30 19:04:47 CDT 2016 > > > the ones shown in the images show it to be (mostly) an RK11-C. > > ... > > I say "mostly" because there appear to be extra cards on the right hand > > end; whether those are some sort of upgrade to the RK11-C, or whether > > someone just stored spare Flip Chips out there, I have no idea. > > So this mystery has been solved (sort of). According to some drawings I have, > there is apparently something called a "Double Buffer Disk Control" variant of > the RK11-C. I looked online, but there was nothing about it there, and the > RK11-C Engineering Drawings at BitSavers don't cover this variant. Does anyone > out there have one of these? I have an RK11-C that I've never attempted to power on. I haven't even made an inventory of it. What would I look for to know? -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Nov 17 21:26:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:26:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161118032648.243CD18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ethan Dicks > I haven't even made an inventory of it. What would I look for to know? Check out the module utilization chart, either in the RK11-C Engineering Drawings, or here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK11_disk_controller (at the top of the section "RK11-C Board chart/count tables"). On a stock RK11-C, slots 1-8, rows C-D (the bottom two rows) are empty. In the "Double Buffer" variant, they are full of Flip Chips. (I'll be documenting the added Flip Chips in the Double-Buffered variant 'soon'.) Noel From linimon at lonesome.com Thu Nov 17 22:43:23 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 22:43:23 -0600 Subject: Doug Englebart - mouse! In-Reply-To: <20161117205333.56F6F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161117205333.56F6F18C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161118044323.GA26724@lonesome.com> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 03:53:33PM -0500, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Noel (who was an early Wikipediast, until the Marching Morons arrived) I hear Venus is very nice this time of year. mcl From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 00:09:37 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Nov 2016 23:09:37 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 7:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > MFM? Yes. > If nothing else, there are a few domestic > 8466 chip pulls on eBay for $13 that maybe you could decap or push a > bitstream into. > A DP8466 by itself won't help, because the ECC polynomial gets loaded into it by another processor. A DP8496 or DP8497 has the polynomial hardwired. From Arno_1983 at gmx.de Fri Nov 18 01:55:51 2016 From: Arno_1983 at gmx.de (Arno Kletzander) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 08:55:51 +0100 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 Message-ID: Paul Koning wrote: > Interesting. From around 1975 or so (...) A few years later (...) > Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today. This thing here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_Fingerboard ? Seems a bit like a digital successor to, or at least inspired by, the analogue 1930s "Trautonium" device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trautonium) developed by Trautwein and Sala in Berlin, which used a length of resistance wire suspended over a metal rail. Both position (pitch) and pressure (volume)sensitive according to the description. Arno, DO4NAK From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 18 02:02:26 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:02:26 +0100 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: <69544107-10f0-a3ab-b61d-a1b4427f5312@bitsavers.org> References: <69544107-10f0-a3ab-b61d-a1b4427f5312@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161118080226.GU15171@Update.UU.SE> This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? /P On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:59:29AM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > I've uploaded them to bitsavers.org/bits/DIAB > > I should get my Colex 68K unix bits pulled together > It was a VME 80186 MSDOS system that had a 68000/68451 board grafted onto it to run Unisoft Unix > > On 11/17/16 10:52 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > A guy in Sweden made the effort to image the install media for DNIX 5.3 and 5.12 as well as ABCenix 5.12. > > > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/dnix-imd.tar.bz2 > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/ABCnix.tar.bz2 > > > > > > These are for computers made by DIAB (later part of Bull) DS90 and Luxor ABC1600 (branded Luxor but developed by DIAB). > > > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dataindustrier_AB > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ABC_1600 > > > > They all were 68k based. The early DS90 had 68010 + 68451 MMU. The ABC1600 had 68008 and some homebuilt MMU. The ABC1600 > > is quite a nice machine with 768x1024 b/w portrait screen that can be twisted into landscape. It has a simple windowing > > system. Actually half of the hardware that make up the system is the graphics board. Unfortunately the 68008 makes it > > quite weak. > > > > I hope that the imaged disk can end up in a safer place than my dropbox, for example Bitsavers... > > > > Thanks Jonas Malm for doing the disk images (I am just the messanger)! > > > > /Mattis > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 18 02:16:20 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 00:16:20 -0800 Subject: New family member Message-ID: <26aabdc9-888d-7ac1-9879-642f6511a535@jwsss.com> Some may recall the Nova 3 front panel discussion some months back. I bought a Nova 3 front panel just for the heck of it, and we discussed replacing lamp, and have the correct lamp info now. Nova 3 CPU, 2 16K boards, Basic I/O and Anyway the Nova 3 karma system was watching and guess what. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/11/data-general-nova-3.html So now I may really be doing work on the lamps on both my system and on the spare front panel. Maybe the Star Trek gods are doing this, since we have a DG copy of Star Trek too. Getting scary. thanks Jim From pontus at Update.UU.SE Fri Nov 18 02:54:14 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:54:14 +0100 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161118085414.GW15171@Update.UU.SE> I've only skimmed this thread so I'll appologize in advance if I'm off topic or repeating things. But here are a few other early computer music projects: EMS in London (PDP-8/s): http://120years.net/musys-and-mouse-audio-synthesis-language-peter-grogono-untied-kingdom-1965/ EMS in Stockholm (PDP-15): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCdlTilrp5k In Memoriam LP (Datasaab D2, D21 and D22): http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/datasaab/musik.html Cheers, Pontus. On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 08:54:10AM -0600, Kyle Owen wrote: > Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate > one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled > "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music". > > Thanks! > > Kyle From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Nov 18 03:41:56 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 10:41:56 +0100 (CET) Subject: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: <77f597e6-2272-38d3-fd1a-920b82f07333@bitsavers.org> References: <11fea804-164b-4119-bab8-8102415b18b1@xs4all.nl> <77f597e6-2272-38d3-fd1a-920b82f07333@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Nov 2016, Al Kossow wrote: > Fred, could you make these files readable, please Reading about NCD images I went digging in our archives and found a QIC tape containing NCD16 stuff (apparently NCDware 2.2.0) dated 1990/1991. Here's the file: ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/ncd/ncd16.tar.gz Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 18 08:30:06 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:30:06 -0500 Subject: Datamation, May 1972 In-Reply-To: References: <0596C4C7-9252-46BC-A70A-CAEE09ED5E3B@comcast.net> <9E22112A-799A-40EC-8268-6B05F8F3BE9A@comcast.net> <35FFE84D-C6B3-48F6-AC64-BCFE2AF4D5E5@comcast.net> Message-ID: > On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Kyle Owen wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> This is the piece I mentioned, I believe. https://www.youtube.com/watch? >> v=60oxsizDxaQ > > That's quite eerie sounding! I believe I found the book in which that recording appears. https://www.discogs.com/Various-Music-By-Computers/release/2426436 I also remember another piece listed in that description, "British Grenadiers". It's a smooth transition from that tune to "Johnny comes marching home". Which is interesting because they are in different keys, one minor, one major. The technical details listing at the end mentions ILLIAC II several times. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Nov 18 08:40:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 09:40:48 -0500 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1273CDB9-D372-4338-92B1-72F6616250AB@comcast.net> > On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC > polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with > relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the > hardware. > > The common "Glover" 32-bit polynomial was: > x^32 + x^28 + x^26 + x^19 + x^17 + x^10 + x^6 + x^2 + x^0 > > WD's 56-bit polynomial was > x^56 + x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 + x^0 > > Assuming that National's 56-bit polynomials don't use any fewer terms than > the 32-bit, nor any more terms than the WD 56-bit, there are not quite 8 > billion possibilities to brute-force. x^n and x^0 are always used, so the > size of the search space is comb(55,9) + comb(55,8) + comb(55, 7). That > would take to long to brute-force search in software on a general purpose > CPU, so I think I'd have to code it for a GPU or FPGA. > > There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I > haven't yet given it a lot of thought. I don't know enough math to do the work, but a little rubbed off from listening to those who do. CRC polynomials have special properties, they aren't arbitrary polynomials. That reduces the number of possible choices dramatically. In fact, I remember that finding a good one is hard work; a mathematician at DEC who specializes in this stuff spend a big chunk of time (weeks if not months) finding a 64 bit CRC polynomial that was proposed for the HPPI high speed channel standard. (I don't remember if it was adopted, but some technical details do exist.) The other key property of CRCs is that they are linear functions. This is why you can compute the change to the CRC for a given data change easily -- which means that a CRC is never useable as a cryptographic data integrity code, even though WEP abused it that way. I would assume this means you can deduce the CRC polynomial by straightforward math from a few well chosen test data blocks. Not sure which ones; perhaps all zeroes plus single bit set at each of different bit offsets. In other words, exhaustive search, which would be somewhat painful though obviously doable these days, should not be needed. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 08:49:43 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 06:49:43 -0800 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: <20161118080226.GU15171@Update.UU.SE> References: <69544107-10f0-a3ab-b61d-a1b4427f5312@bitsavers.org> <20161118080226.GU15171@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <31652d96-a90b-7b50-c8b7-e3cfcac31c49@bitsavers.org> On 11/18/16 12:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. > > Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. > I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? > yes, I think so From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 12:00:45 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:00:45 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) Message-ID: http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=658 Hot business women posing with classic UNIVAC hardware and a link to a very rare 1968 business proposal by UNIVAC to Philip Morris, an attempt to sell either a 418-III or 9400, pricing, comparison with IBM 360 models. Included with the proposal were a handful of product brochures. I scanned some of my favorite photos. Bill From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 14:01:28 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:01:28 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: <1273CDB9-D372-4338-92B1-72F6616250AB@comcast.net> References: <1273CDB9-D372-4338-92B1-72F6616250AB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 7:40 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > I don't know enough math to do the work, but a little rubbed off from > listening to those who do. > > CRC polynomials have special properties, they aren't arbitrary > polynomials. That reduces the number of possible choices dramatically. In > fact, I remember that finding a good one is hard work; > Finding only "good" polynomials and then testing those against the data is far more work than doing the brute-force search of all order-n polynomials that have a relatively small number of terms including x^0. However, National might not have restricted their search to a small number of terms, which had been done in the early days to minimize hardware (number of XOR gates, and resulting depth of XOR tree). By the mid-1980s that was less of a concern. There is some evidence that using an order n polynomial with roughly n/2 terms may typically be stronger than order n polynomials with few terms, in which case a brute force search for a 56 bit polynomial becomes almost completely intractable, short of a distributed search on a large number of machines with GPUs. > I would assume this means you can deduce the CRC polynomial by > straightforward math from a few well chosen test data blocks. > If I had the hardware that wrote the disk in question, there are a lot of things I could do, including that. I may have to tell the owner of the disk drive that I can give him the uncorrected data only. From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 18 14:04:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 12:04:48 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> On 11/18/2016 10:00 AM, william degnan wrote: > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=658 > > Hot business women posing with classic UNIVAC hardware and a link to > a very rare 1968 business proposal by UNIVAC to Philip Morris, an > attempt to sell either a 418-III or 9400, pricing, comparison with > IBM 360 models. Included with the proposal were a handful of product > brochures. I scanned some of my favorite photos. Models? Wasn't the 9300 basically an instruction-compatible model of the S/360 Model 20? I think the 9400 was the bottom end 360/30 model compatible. Calling the Model 20 a "member of the System 360 line" has always been a bit of a stretch in my book. So small cheese in terms of sales proposals, but interesting nonetheless. Thanks! --Chuck From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 14:09:57 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:09:57 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/18/2016 10:00 AM, william degnan wrote: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=658 > > > > Hot business women posing with classic UNIVAC hardware and a link to > > a very rare 1968 business proposal by UNIVAC to Philip Morris, an > > attempt to sell either a 418-III or 9400, pricing, comparison with > > IBM 360 models. Included with the proposal were a handful of product > > brochures. I scanned some of my favorite photos. > > Models? Wasn't the 9300 basically an instruction-compatible model of > the S/360 Model 20? I think the 9400 was the bottom end 360/30 model > compatible. Calling the Model 20 a "member of the System 360 line" has > always been a bit of a stretch in my book. > > So small cheese in terms of sales proposals, but interesting > nonetheless. Thanks! > > > --Chuck > The 418-III is a better comparison, of a more powerful 360 than the /20. The proposal basically says pick between the 418-III or you can buy a 9000 series and if necessary dial into a time sharing system we recommend (see brochure at the end of the proposal). Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 14:10:56 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:10:56 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:09 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11/18/2016 10:00 AM, william degnan wrote: >> > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=658 >> > >> > Hot business women posing with classic UNIVAC hardware and a link to >> > a very rare 1968 business proposal by UNIVAC to Philip Morris, an >> > attempt to sell either a 418-III or 9400, pricing, comparison with >> > IBM 360 models. Included with the proposal were a handful of product >> > brochures. I scanned some of my favorite photos. >> >> Models? Wasn't the 9300 basically an instruction-compatible model of >> the S/360 Model 20? I think the 9400 was the bottom end 360/30 model >> compatible. Calling the Model 20 a "member of the System 360 line" has >> always been a bit of a stretch in my book. >> >> So small cheese in terms of sales proposals, but interesting >> nonetheless. Thanks! >> >> >> --Chuck >> > > The 418-III is a better comparison, of a more powerful 360 than the /20. > The proposal basically says pick between the 418-III or you can buy a 9000 > series and if necessary dial into a time sharing system we recommend (see > brochure at the end of the proposal). > > Bill > > meant to say ,,,time sharing system with a 418-III on the other end. BIll From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 14:48:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 12:48:45 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: <1273CDB9-D372-4338-92B1-72F6616250AB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On 11/18/16 12:01 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I may have to tell the owner of the disk drive that I can give him the > uncorrected data only. > is there any way to find out what the system and disk controller board was? From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Fri Nov 18 14:50:30 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 21:50:30 +0100 Subject: Looking for info on the imi 5018 MFM drive. Message-ID: ..in particular I wouil like to know the purpose of the dipswitches on the PCB Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 15:49:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:49:06 -0800 Subject: Looking for info on the imi 5018 MFM drive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: corvus/service/7100-04704_H-seriesDrvSvc.pdf page 111 drv sel 1 drv sel 2 drv sel 3 drv sel 4 optional reset size sel 0 size sel 1 drv sel enable the shunt on the corvus omnidrve 1-7 are closed, 8 open for all size drives On 11/18/16 12:50 PM, jos wrote: > > > ..in particular I wouil like to know the purpose of the dipswitches on the PCB > > > Jos > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 15:50:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:50:49 -0800 Subject: Fwd: [SIGCIS-Members] Jay Wright Forrester In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: [SIGCIS-Members] Jay Wright Forrester Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 21:27:40 +0000 From: Deborah Douglas To: Sigcis I regret to announce the death of one of MIT?s leading computer pioneers Jay W. Forrester. Forrester died Wednesday, November 16 at age 98. The New York Times has published an obituary; MIT?s is being completed as I write. There will many who can offer comments on Forrester?s myriad contributions but here, I would add that he has been a stalwart supporter of the MIT Museum and a regular participant in many programs. I am grateful for his enthusiasm for sharing the details of his knowledge about the Servomechanisms Lab, Whirlwind, SAGE, Lincoln Laboratory, system dynamics and management. As more information becomes available, I am happy to share with interested individuals. Debbie Douglas *Deborah G. Douglas, PhD* ? Director of Collections and Curator of Science and Technology, MIT Museum, Room N51-209 ? 265 Massachusetts Avenue ? Cambridge, MA 02139-4307 ? http://mitmuseum.mit.edu ? http://museum.mit.edu/150 ? ddouglas at mit.edu ? 617-253-1766 phone ? 617-253-8994 fax -------------- next part -------------- _______________________________________________ This email is relayed from members at sigcis.org, the email discussion list of SHOT SIGCIS. Opinions expressed here are those of the member posting and are not reviewed, edited, or endorsed by SIGCIS. The list archives are at http://lists.sigcis.org/pipermail/members-sigcis.org/ and you can change your subscription options at http://lists.sigcis.org/listinfo.cgi/members-sigcis.org From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 18 17:15:54 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:15:54 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> Message-ID: <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> On 11/18/2016 02:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Models? Wasn't the 9300 basically an > instruction-compatible model of the S/360 Model 20? I > think the 9400 was the bottom end 360/30 model compatible. > Calling the Model 20 a "member of the System 360 line" has > always been a bit of a stretch in my book. OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only half populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an adder? It could only increment/decrement. The data paths were only 4 bits wide, so to add a 3 in register A to a 5 in register B, it decremented A and incremented B until A went negative. It did this for each nibble. I'm guessing a 16-bit add took over 100 us. I'd ALMOST reject calling this a COMPUTER! Jon From michael.newton at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 17:17:20 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:17:20 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. > > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. Yes -12v, sorry > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. > > Looking at: > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be > truncated. > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of > course the power supply schematic is missing. > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on > the hpmuseum pages.) > > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - search the page for "DraftMaster" The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), > which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control > loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the > likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown > there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter > cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, > or even a zener > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry between > there and the actual -12 output of the supply. > > - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. > - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the > reg vs output. > - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the > problem. > - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the area > or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. > > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 18 17:19:05 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 17:19:05 -0600 Subject: Fwd: [SIGCIS-Members] Jay Wright Forrester In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <582F8C69.5050602@pico-systems.com> On 11/18/2016 03:50 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > I regret to announce the death of one of MIT?s leading computer pioneers Jay W. Forrester. Forrester died Wednesday, > November 16 at age 98. Wow, I had NO IDEA he was still around! My freshman advisor was Bill Papian, who was Jay's grad student when they worked on core memory. I figured all these guys were LONG gone. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 18 18:04:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 16:04:48 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> On 11/18/2016 03:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only > half populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an > adder? It could only increment/decrement. The data paths were only > 4 bits wide, so to add a 3 in register A to a 5 in register B, it > decremented A and incremented B until A went negative. It did this > for each nibble. I'm guessing a 16-bit add took over 100 us. I'd > ALMOST reject calling this a COMPUTER! So not even as smart as a 1620 CADET, which did arithmetic via TLU? I guess I could believe that for register arithmetic, but did it do the same for memory-to-memory packed decimal operations? --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:53:10 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:53:10 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: <1273CDB9-D372-4338-92B1-72F6616250AB@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 1:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > is there any way to find out what the system and disk controller board was? > Unfortunately not. It's possible that the 56-bit ECC code is generated by something other than division by a polynomial in GF(2). For instance, it could be interleaved Reed-Solomon coding. From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 18 21:59:33 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 21:59:33 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> Message-ID: <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> On 11/18/2016 06:04 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/18/2016 03:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only >> half populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an >> adder? It could only increment/decrement. The data paths were only >> 4 bits wide, so to add a 3 in register A to a 5 in register B, it >> decremented A and incremented B until A went negative. It did this >> for each nibble. I'm guessing a 16-bit add took over 100 us. I'd >> ALMOST reject calling this a COMPUTER! > So not even as smart as a 1620 CADET, which did arithmetic via TLU? Right! > I guess I could believe that for register arithmetic, but did it do the > same for memory-to-memory packed decimal operations? Yes, I think it had to, as it had no adder. Had to be incomprehensibly slow. I guess it would load the memory to an internal register a piece at a time. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Fri Nov 18 22:17:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 20:17:45 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> On 11/18/2016 07:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Yes, I think it had to, as it had no adder. Had to be > incomprehensibly slow. I guess it would load the memory to an > internal register a piece at a time. The last time I dug around a bit for model 20 software, I was surprised to find that there was not only a FORTRAN, but a PL/I and a COBOL written for the thing. By and large, the only applications that I ever saw were RPG. I can't begin to imagine how slow a COBOL would be, much less a PL/I. --Chuck From rlloken at telus.net Sat Nov 19 00:05:06 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 23:05:06 -0700 (MST) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here Message-ID: So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar So I exploded the tar ball and compiled it and it crashed so I carted it over to one of our Tru64 Unix Alpha boxes, took the 'g' off "gcc" in the makefile, used sed to change ncurses to curses where ever it could be found and compiled it. AND IT WORKS SWELL! Rogue is as addictive today as it was in 1982 on the VAX-11/780 running 4.2bsd. I think I will port it to OpenVMS and run it on my AS4100. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 15:37:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 13:37:13 -0800 Subject: Looking for info on the imi 5018 MFM drive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <7f891ef7-42a1-d38b-3f6f-9103b91ccaa4@bitsavers.org> look in the corvus H drive manuals On 11/18/16 12:50 PM, jos wrote: > > > ..in particular I wouil like to know the purpose of the dipswitches on the PCB > > > Jos > From djg at pdp8online.com Fri Nov 18 17:02:23 2016 From: djg at pdp8online.com (David Gesswein) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:02:23 -0500 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161118230223.GA5725@hugin2.pdp8online.com> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 03:33:36PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: > I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC > polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with > relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the > hardware. > ... > There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I > haven't yet given it a lot of thought. > > I haven't run across it yet. If they used it for the header it is easy to reverse since they naturally have a pattern that is easy to calculate the polynomial from. You may find sector data with the correct pattern to also use the method. http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/essays/CRC-Reverse-Engineering.html From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 18 17:22:56 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 15:22:56 -0800 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: <20161118230223.GA5725@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20161118230223.GA5725@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: you might also look at patent 4979173 cirrus / adaptec from around that time x^52 + x^50 + x^43 + x^41 + x^34 + x^30 + x^26 + x^24 + x^8 +1 licensed from Glover On 11/18/16 3:02 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 03:33:36PM -0700, Eric Smith wrote: >> I'm not looking forward to trying to reverse-engineer 48-bit and 56-bit ECC >> polynomials. However, they usually tried to choose polynomials with >> relatively few terms, to minimize the number of XOR gates needed in the >> hardware. >> > ... >> There might be some other short-cuts to reducing the search space, but I >> haven't yet given it a lot of thought. >> >> > I haven't run across it yet. If they used it for the header it is easy to > reverse since they naturally have a pattern that is easy to calculate the > polynomial from. You may find sector data with the correct pattern to also > use the method. > > http://www.cosc.canterbury.ac.nz/greg.ewing/essays/CRC-Reverse-Engineering.html > From spacewar at gmail.com Fri Nov 18 19:49:42 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Fri, 18 Nov 2016 18:49:42 -0700 Subject: National Semiconductor 48-bit and 56-bit ECC polynomials In-Reply-To: <20161118230223.GA5725@hugin2.pdp8online.com> References: <20161118230223.GA5725@hugin2.pdp8online.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 4:02 PM, David Gesswein wrote: > I haven't run across it yet. If they used it for the header it is easy to > reverse since they naturally have a pattern that is easy to calculate the > polynomial from. > They used normal CRC for the headers. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 07:58:35 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 05:58:35 -0800 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5e6cf264-4c05-7bb4-f9de-3a88669d9ff6@bitsavers.org> On 11/18/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office > and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: > > linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar > still on the net http://www.coredumpcentral.org/download.html From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Nov 19 09:26:11 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 07:26:11 -0800 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course, it is better to run it on vintage hardware to get the full experience, but there is an Java applet version that runs in a browser - http://www.hexatron.com/rogue/ There is also an iPhone port (last updated in 2008, so that's vintage as far as iOS, right?). alan > On Nov 18, 2016, at 22:05, Richard Loken wrote: > > So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office > and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: > > linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar > > So I exploded the tar ball and compiled it and it crashed so I carted it > over to one of our Tru64 Unix Alpha boxes, took the 'g' off "gcc" in the > makefile, used sed to change ncurses to curses where ever it could be > found and compiled it. AND IT WORKS SWELL! > > Rogue is as addictive today as it was in 1982 on the VAX-11/780 running > 4.2bsd. I think I will port it to OpenVMS and run it on my AS4100. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those > Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Nov 19 09:26:11 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 07:26:11 -0800 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Of course, it is better to run it on vintage hardware to get the full experience, but there is an Java applet version that runs in a browser - http://www.hexatron.com/rogue/ There is also an iPhone port (last updated in 2008, so that's vintage as far as iOS, right?). alan > On Nov 18, 2016, at 22:05, Richard Loken wrote: > > So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office > and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: > > linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar > > So I exploded the tar ball and compiled it and it crashed so I carted it > over to one of our Tru64 Unix Alpha boxes, took the 'g' off "gcc" in the > makefile, used sed to change ncurses to curses where ever it could be > found and compiled it. AND IT WORKS SWELL! > > Rogue is as addictive today as it was in 1982 on the VAX-11/780 running > 4.2bsd. I think I will port it to OpenVMS and run it on my AS4100. > > -- > Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those > Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our > Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" > ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 19 09:32:17 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 10:32:17 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC bus receiver chips Message-ID: <20161119153217.0281718C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, I was glancing at pair of M784 Flip Chips, on early production, one late, and I noticed that the early one used SP380A's (marked "DEC 380A"), and the later one used DS8640's (marked "DEC 8640"), with the exact same PCB traces. So probably the latter is an alternative for the former. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 19 10:08:31 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:08:31 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) Message-ID: <20161119160831.1C84318C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Chuck Guzis > On 11/18/2016 10:00 AM, william degnan wrote: >> Hot business women posing with classic UNIVAC hardware > Models? Yup. Definitely too hot to be business-women! (Hope Chuck doesn't mind being quoted out of context, but it was just too good to let pass... :-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 19 10:13:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:13:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: Double Buffer RK11-C Message-ID: <20161119161320.BBCC018C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Check out the module utilization chart .. On a stock RK11-C, slots 1-8, > rows C-D (the bottom two rows) are empty. ... (I'll be documenting the > added Flip Chips in the Double-Buffered variant 'soon'.) I've added a module chart for the double-buffered variant here: http://gunkies.org/wiki/RK11-C_disk_controller I'm working on the prints now. (Any idea what I should call this thing? There's already an "RK11-C_Engineering_Drawings".) Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 19 11:49:49 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:49:49 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> Message-ID: <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> On 11/18/2016 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/18/2016 07:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> Yes, I think it had to, as it had no adder. Had to be >> incomprehensibly slow. I guess it would load the memory to an >> internal register a piece at a time. > The last time I dug around a bit for model 20 software, I was surprised > to find that there was not only a FORTRAN, but a PL/I and a COBOL > written for the thing. > > By and large, the only applications that I ever saw were RPG. I can't > begin to imagine how slow a COBOL would be, much less a PL/I. > PL/I ?? No, I really can't believe it! Was this a cross-compiler? Remember, MANY /20s had 4K memory and no disk. There also was no OS, so no file system support. I can imagine a cross-compiler being of some use, as small programs ought to work OK. The only sensible reason for FORTRAN would be scientific computing, and since the /20 had no floating point, I can barely imagine how slow a double precision FP multiply would be. I would have to guess close to a second! I think a Monroematic calculator could give it good competition, and some of the early programmable calculators (Wang and such) could almost certainly outdo it. I'd rather be hitting myself on the head with a hammer than try to do serious computing on a 360/20. It makes even a PDP-8 look like a real workhorse. Jon From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 11:56:20 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 12:56:20 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 12:49 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/18/2016 10:17 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > >> On 11/18/2016 07:59 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >> Yes, I think it had to, as it had no adder. Had to be >>> incomprehensibly slow. I guess it would load the memory to an >>> internal register a piece at a time. >>> >> The last time I dug around a bit for model 20 software, I was surprised >> to find that there was not only a FORTRAN, but a PL/I and a COBOL >> written for the thing. >> >> By and large, the only applications that I ever saw were RPG. I can't >> begin to imagine how slow a COBOL would be, much less a PL/I. >> >> PL/I ?? No, I really can't believe it! Was this a cross-compiler? > Remember, MANY /20s had 4K memory and no disk. There also was no OS, so no > file system support. I can imagine a cross-compiler being of some use, as > small programs ought to work OK. The only sensible reason for FORTRAN > would be scientific computing, and since the /20 had no floating point, I > can barely imagine how slow a double precision FP multiply would be. I > would have to guess close to a second! I think a Monroematic calculator > could give it good competition, and some of the early programmable > calculators (Wang and such) could almost certainly outdo it. > > I'd rather be hitting myself on the head with a hammer than try to do > serious computing on a 360/20. > It makes even a PDP-8 look like a real workhorse. > > Jon > True, but for all that I have read about the actual use of the /20 that was not what it was for. IBM used the /20's as a smart terminal and that kind of thing. The thing in between the mainframe and something else operating in a remote location, and so on. From abs at absd.org Sat Nov 19 13:00:07 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 19:00:07 +0000 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: <5e6cf264-4c05-7bb4-f9de-3a88669d9ff6@bitsavers.org> References: <5e6cf264-4c05-7bb4-f9de-3a88669d9ff6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 19 November 2016 at 13:58, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/18/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > > So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office > > and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: > > > > linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar > > > > still on the net > > http://www.coredumpcentral.org/download.html > Most Linux distributions have a version (possibly not exactly the same) in 'bsdgames-nonfree'. bsdgames is a copy of a recent set of BSD games, the ones with odd licences are in the -nonfree. For those of us perverse enough to be running newer BSD on vintage hardware, its in /usr/games :-p For slightly later I always had a soft spot for ularn or omega (though nethack would be the reference :) David From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 19 13:00:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:00:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) Message-ID: <20161119190044.B3A2218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > for all that I have read about the actual use of the /20 that was not > what it was for. IBM used the /20's as a smart terminal and that kind > of thing. The thing in between the mainframe and something else > operating in a remote location, and so on. When I was working at IBM Bermuda (as sort of an intern), they used a 360/20 as their main service bureau machine. (I'm pretty sure it was a /20, and not a /30.) It had a card reader/punch, 4 (IIRC) tape drives, and a 1403 printer. They had just gotten in a System/3, to replace it, but only one client had transitioned to using it. Noel From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 13:33:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 11:33:15 -0800 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: <5e6cf264-4c05-7bb4-f9de-3a88669d9ff6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/19/16 11:00 AM, David Brownlee wrote: > On 19 November 2016 at 13:58, Al Kossow wrote: > >> >> >> On 11/18/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote: >>> So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office >>> and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: >>> >>> linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar >>> >> >> still on the net >> >> http://www.coredumpcentral.org/download.html >> > > Most Linux distributions have a version 3.7 is what is significant. Toy was very protective of the sources back in the day so the source to the really early versions were hard to find at the time. I did the snoopy dance when I found the source for the color version on the SGI IRIS. How many people remember Rog-O-Matic from CMU? From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Nov 19 14:38:51 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 14:38:51 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <20161119190044.B3A2218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161119190044.B3A2218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5830B85B.4080204@pico-systems.com> On 11/19/2016 01:00 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > for all that I have read about the actual use of the /20 that was not > > what it was for. IBM used the /20's as a smart terminal and that kind > > of thing. The thing in between the mainframe and something else > > operating in a remote location, and so on. > > When I was working at IBM Bermuda (as sort of an intern), they used a 360/20 > as their main service bureau machine. (I'm pretty sure it was a /20, and not a > /30.) It had a card reader/punch, 4 (IIRC) tape drives, and a 1403 printer. > > The /20 was very limited, and not a general purpose 360. There was also the 360/22 and 360/25 that were variants of the /30 model. One was cheaper, one was a little faster. But, if they were doing mostly RPG work, then a /20 could do that. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Nov 19 14:50:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:50:45 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <5830B85B.4080204@pico-systems.com> References: <20161119190044.B3A2218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5830B85B.4080204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 19, 2016, at 3:38 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> ... > The /20 was very limited, and not a general purpose 360. There was also the 360/22 and 360/25 that were variants of the /30 model. One was cheaper, one was a little faster. But, if they were doing mostly RPG work, then a /20 could do that. Another limited machine was the 360 model 44, which omitted the string and decimal instructions. So it couldn't run OS/360; it had its own operating system (PS/44?). But there was a fix for that: an optional "emulation" feature would add a separate chunk of memory in which an instruction emulation library would run that would simulate the missing instructions. Think of it like the full VAX instruction emulation done in some microVAX models. It's a very obscure feature; I've looked for descriptions but not found much at all. Our 360/44 in college had this, and as a result, it did run OS/360 (19.6 PCP). And it ran PL/I applications -- VERY slowly. The emulator was loaded from a binary card deck, only if needed (core memory -- it wasn't normally done). It was an interesting bit of magic; the actual load was done by a complex channel program, which would actually pick apart the fields of the object deck to extract the load address and length fields of each binary card, modify the channel program from those fields, then read the data portion of the card into the correct location. A pretty impressive combination of command and data chaining. paul From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 19 15:31:49 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 15:31:49 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20161119190044.B3A2218C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <5830B85B.4080204@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20161119213149.GB1940@lonesome.com> On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 03:50:45PM -0500, Paul Koning wrote: > A pretty impressive combination of command and data chaining. s/impressive/terrifying/ mcl From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sat Nov 19 15:35:09 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:35:09 +0100 Subject: Looking for info on the imi 5018 MFM drive. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <16f275df-08df-7535-9c55-ff785b660175@greenmail.ch> On 18.11.2016 22:49, Al Kossow wrote: > corvus/service/7100-04704_H-seriesDrvSvc.pdf page 111 > > drv sel 1 > drv sel 2 > drv sel 3 > drv sel 4 > optional reset > size sel 0 > size sel 1 > drv sel enable > > the shunt on the corvus omnidrve 1-7 are closed, 8 open for all > size drives > > O As always, thank Al ! From aperry at snowmoose.com Sat Nov 19 15:35:39 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 13:35:39 -0800 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: <5e6cf264-4c05-7bb4-f9de-3a88669d9ff6@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/19/16 11:33 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/19/16 11:00 AM, David Brownlee wrote: >> On 19 November 2016 at 13:58, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11/18/16 10:05 PM, Richard Loken wrote: >>>> So I am 35 days from retirement and I have been cleaning up the office >>>> and my Redhat Linux workstation and in /usr/local/src I found: >>>> >>>> linuxrogue-0.3.7-roguecentral.tar >>>> >>> still on the net >>> >>> http://www.coredumpcentral.org/download.html >>> >> Most Linux distributions have a version > 3.7 is what is significant. Toy was very protective of the sources back in the day > so the source to the really early versions were hard to find at the time. I did > the snoopy dance when I found the source for the color version on the SGI IRIS. > > How many people remember Rog-O-Matic from CMU? > > One of the guys that I went to college with at New Mexico Tech, Ed Fries, spent a lot of time running rog-o-matic. It seemed like he was working on it, but I don't know what he was doing with it other than bringing the VAX to its knees when the rest of us were trying to get class assignments done on the 750. alan From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:06:31 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:06:31 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers Message-ID: I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305-based), and their clones. I've only made any significant progress within the last few days, after hacking together my own disassesmbler which deals with the Fast I/O Select PROM. I do NOT recommend using this disassembler yet, for reasons that are explained in the README, but I've put it on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/s8x30x I've made some progress interpreting the firmware of an early WD1000, which only had 512 words of firmware, and didn't support run-time configurable sector size selection. So far I've figured out how they handle the host reading and writing the task file, dispatching the commands, and much of the sector ID search. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:25:16 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 00:25:16 +0000 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Do they have operations based on the address that the 8x300 is executing, like a typical bit slice? I used a WD1000 based controller on my Olivetti M20. It is actually a controller for a TRS-80 but it was a WD1000 in disguise. The M20 had what looked to be a wd1000 in the schematic I'd found. I was able to use a ST251 with it but needed to modify the step to be autovstep. The original Olivetti hard drive was a 10 ms and the ST251 doesn't go that fast but is actually faster with the auto stepping. It was a good thing the M20 software was very modular. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:06:31 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305-based), and their clones. I've only made any significant progress within the last few days, after hacking together my own disassesmbler which deals with the Fast I/O Select PROM. I do NOT recommend using this disassembler yet, for reasons that are explained in the README, but I've put it on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/s8x30x I've made some progress interpreting the firmware of an early WD1000, which only had 512 words of firmware, and didn't support run-time configurable sector size selection. So far I've figured out how they handle the host reading and writing the task file, dispatching the commands, and much of the sector ID search. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 18:26:52 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:26:52 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/19/16 4:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering > the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305-based), and their > clones. there were a lot of them, looking around my office I see: Davong Liberty Bay / Codata (multibus) Wicat (multibus) and the Wicat and Codata produce track data that Dave's emulator can grok. WD1010's are even more common (corvus omnidrive, convergent ngen) From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 18:30:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:30:45 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> On 11/19/16 4:25 PM, dwight wrote: It is actually a controller for a TRS-80 but it was a WD1000 in disguise. what format board (5" or 8")? 8X300 or 305? I dumped and took pictures of a couple different styles which are up on bitsavers under westernDigital would be interesting to find a 305 variant to see if the code is any different -- ach.. forgot about the Fortune Systems WD1000 version. more on that in the next msg From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 18:35:29 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:35:29 -0800 Subject: Archiving Fortune 32:16 bits Message-ID: spent way too much time on this the past few days I dug up everything I had on the system, took pictures and dumped firmware and floppies Maybe someone will figure out how to remove the serialization some day bitsavers.org/pdf/fortuneSystems floppy images under bits/ I also started reverse-engineering the board, mostly to see how the mmu worked. Pretty basic, four base/bound sets made up of two 12 bit registers in three bytes the 12 bit adder is applied to A10-21 This all looked familiar, esp the bus pinouts. I think I had docs at one point for expansion board developers. Have no idea what happened to that. From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:33:20 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 17:33:20 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:25 PM, dwight wrote: > Do they have operations based on the address that the 8x300 is executing, > like a typical bit slice? > They have two 8-bit PROMs to provide the 16-bit instruction word to the 8X300, and a third 8-bit PROM to provide "fast I/O select", which is decoded to enable input and output ports, avoiding the need for the normal 8X300 I/O address selection instructions. > I used a WD1000 based controller on my Olivetti M20. It is actually a > controller for a TRS-80 but it was a WD1000 in disguise. The M20 had what > looked to be a wd1000 in the schematic I'd found. > The TRS-80 version of the WD1000 added support for a hardware write-protect switch, but was otherwise about the same as the normal WD1000. Early WD1000 units had only 512 words of program, and did not support runtime configuration of the sector size; you had to install different firmware for 128-bit, 256-byte, or 512-byte sectors. Later 1K-word WD1000 firmware, and AFAIK all WD1001 firmware, had runtime sector size configuration. From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 19 18:39:22 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 00:39:22 +0000 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5830F0BA.8040504@ntlworld.com> On 19/11/16 06:05, Richard Loken wrote: > Rogue is as addictive today as it was in 1982 on the VAX-11/780 running > 4.2bsd. I think I will port it to OpenVMS and run it on my AS4100. > There is a rogue that runs on VAX/VMS as I definitely played it a little back in the day. I don't think I had the sources, just a .EXE, so that may not work so well for Alpha. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Nov 19 18:41:16 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 16:41:16 -0800 Subject: Archiving Fortune 32:16 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/19/16 4:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I dug up everything I had on the system, took pictures and dumped firmware and floppies > Maybe someone will figure out how to remove the serialization some day > forgot to ask, I think the terminal was a Chuck Guzis design, wasn't it? From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Nov 19 18:52:08 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 00:52:08 +0000 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I guess I was lucky ob sector size. I never even thought about it when I set it up. I had to erase the first track as the Olivetti expected bad track information. Olivetti didn't have a way to manually add it but it did have a sector test program. I figured I'd run that and look at the first sector to see what the format looked like. It said all the sectors were good so I never was able to enter the bad track information. What ever was on the first sector originally may have been bad sector info but it wasn't in a format that the Olivetti liked. I'm suspecting that just running may have burnished the tracks enough to mask the errors. Dang thing still works fine. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 4:33:20 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 5:25 PM, dwight wrote: > Do they have operations based on the address that the 8x300 is executing, > like a typical bit slice? > They have two 8-bit PROMs to provide the 16-bit instruction word to the 8X300, and a third 8-bit PROM to provide "fast I/O select", which is decoded to enable input and output ports, avoiding the need for the normal 8X300 I/O address selection instructions. > I used a WD1000 based controller on my Olivetti M20. It is actually a > controller for a TRS-80 but it was a WD1000 in disguise. The M20 had what > looked to be a wd1000 in the schematic I'd found. > The TRS-80 version of the WD1000 added support for a hardware write-protect switch, but was otherwise about the same as the normal WD1000. Early WD1000 units had only 512 words of program, and did not support runtime configuration of the sector size; you had to install different firmware for 128-bit, 256-byte, or 512-byte sectors. Later 1K-word WD1000 firmware, and AFAIK all WD1001 firmware, had runtime sector size configuration. From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sat Nov 19 19:20:50 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 20:20:50 -0500 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001801d242cc$54f3a160$fedae420$@sc.rr.com> Hi Eric, Your Disassembler sounds very interesting. When you have a stable version, please let me know. I would be interested in seeing the disassembled source code for the WD1000 8-bit card I modified years ago. I had an MFM hard drive or two that I was trying to format, but the 4 sets of hard drive parameters offered by the WD1000 didn't match one of my hard drives so I replaced one of the sets of hard drive parameters by reading the eprom using my homebrew eprom burner setup I built for my Color Computer 1 F Board version way back when I was in my 20s. After getting the hex code into the Coco, I set out to figure out where that hard drive parameter table was located. I picked one of the set of hard drive parameters I didn't think I would ever need and replaced it with my own. I burnt the eprom, installed it into the WD1000 8-bit card and booted my MSDOS system and the WD1000 didn't respond. I turned everything off and uninstalled the eprom again. I looked through the entire eprom for some idea as to why the Hard drive controller was not working. I found one 8-bit byte at the very end of the eprom. I started wondering if that was a simple 8-bit summation of all the bytes in the eprom. I quickly wrote a basic program to add up all the bytes in the eprom since the hex code was loaded in my Coco to arrive at a new 8-bit sum. The result of that calculation was put into that last byte of the eprom file and burnt into the eprom. After reinstalling the WD1000 back into the computer, the WD1000 came right up and asked for my choice to pick for the hard drive parameters to use to format the hard drive with! It even included the set of hard drive parameters I had put into the eprom! I was very proud of what I had accomplished! All this was done at the hex level as I did not have a clue what the code was doing. I just needed different parameters for my MFM hard drive so I could format it to use on my system so I changed them. If I remember correctly, I was setting up a 20MB and 30MB hard drive for an old MSDOS machine I had put together. I think the 20MB was in the table, but the 30MB was not again if I am remembering this correctly. I probably still have that old WD controller somewhere if I can find it. I thought you guys might be interested in my experience modifying the WD1000 Eprom. I had a lot of fun figuring it all out. Now with Eric's disassembler, I'll be able to finally see the disassembled source code for it! It will be so cool to examine! Take care my friends. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 7:07 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers > > I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305- > based), and their clones. I've only made any significant progress within the last few days, after hacking together my own > disassesmbler which deals with the Fast I/O Select PROM. I do NOT recommend using this disassembler yet, for reasons that are > explained in the README, but I've put it on github: > > https://github.com/brouhaha/s8x30x > > I've made some progress interpreting the firmware of an early WD1000, which only had 512 words of firmware, and didn't support > run-time configurable sector size selection. So far I've figured out how they handle the host reading and writing the task file, > dispatching the commands, and much of the sector ID search. From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 19 21:58:59 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:58:59 -0600 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161120035858.GB3443@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 09:07:08PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > This time the Buy it Now price id $999 fwiw, it did not sell. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Sat Nov 19 21:58:59 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:58:59 -0600 Subject: Collection of stuff in Austin (ebay warning) listed before In-Reply-To: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> References: <2495e425-0bae-c9ad-0db3-d91a83459847@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161120035858.GB3443@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 13, 2016 at 09:07:08PM -0800, jim stephens wrote: > This time the Buy it Now price id $999 fwiw, it did not sell. mcl From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Nov 19 22:35:59 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:35:59 -0500 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping Message-ID: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:12:17 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:12:17 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> Message-ID: Looks like a rebadged Interdata 7/32 (or similar) to me. Someone should try to rescue that; they're very rare... - Josh On 11/19/16 8:35 PM, TeoZ wrote: > http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:19:49 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:19:49 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: <001801d242cc$54f3a160$fedae420$@sc.rr.com> References: <001801d242cc$54f3a160$fedae420$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Kip Koon wrote: > When you have a stable version, please let me know. I'll try to remember to post an update here. I would be interested in seeing the disassembled source code for the > WD1000 8-bit card I modified years ago. > I had an MFM hard drive or two that I was trying to format, but the 4 sets > of hard drive parameters offered by the WD1000 didn't match one of my hard > drives so I replaced one of the sets of hard drive parameters by reading > the eprom using my homebrew eprom burner setup I built for my Color > Computer 1 F Board version way back when I was in my 20s. > The WD1000 itself doesn't store any hard drive parameters. It just assumes that the host knows the correct ranges of cylinders heads, and sectors to use. I think the EPROM you describe that has stored drive parameters must be have been a firmware BIOS EPROM that was executed by the host system. It's possible that some variation of the WD1000, e.g., for ISA bus, had such a thing, but I've only concerned myself with the firmware that actually runs on the 8X300 processor on the WD1000, so nothing I'm doing will help in any way with an EPROM as you describe. I did design and wire-wrap a WD1000 to Color Computer 2 interface back in the day, and wrote an OS/9 driver for it, though I never wrote any boot ROM for it, so I had to boot from floppy. > After reinstalling the WD1000 back into the computer, the WD1000 came > right up and asked for my choice to pick for the hard drive parameters to > use to format the hard drive with! It even included the set of hard drive > parameters I had put into the eprom! I was very proud of what I had > accomplished! > Rightfully so. I've done a lot of firmware hacking over the years, but I never needed to do it to change disk geometry. It really sucked that so many controllers had only hard-coded choices in their BIOS ROMs; thankfully by the 1990s almost all of them were configurable. From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Nov 19 23:20:09 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:20:09 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> Message-ID: <162de15c-c386-06ae-8d85-365b44f1c478@sbcglobal.net> It could be a 7/32 or 8/32. There will be some custom Triad boards inside. Their systems were used in auto parts and hardware stores. Disk drives may be Hawks. The terminals were plasma screens designed in house. The printers are TI Omni 800's rebadged Triad. It looks like there are some CRT terminals on the floor. They are what I designed for them. It was my first Job out of college. I worked at Triad from 1970-1981. It would be wonderful if someone could save this stuff. Bob On 11/19/2016 9:12 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Looks like a rebadged Interdata 7/32 (or similar) to me. Someone > should try to rescue that; they're very rare... > > > - Josh > > > On 11/19/16 8:35 PM, TeoZ wrote: >> http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html >> >> >> >> >> --- >> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >> https://www.avast.com/antivirus >> > > -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From radioengr at gmail.com Sat Nov 19 23:31:22 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:31:22 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/19/2016 5:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering > the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305-based), and their > clones. I have a hard disk controller for my Heath H100 that uses the 8x300. I didn't realize how common that design was... Rob. From rlloken at telus.net Sat Nov 19 23:39:45 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:39:45 -0700 (MST) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: 8GB0cpqq5mNym8GB1cb3on References: 8GB0cpqq5mNym8GB1cb3on Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Nov 2016, Antonio Carlini wrote: > There is a rogue that runs on VAX/VMS as I definitely played it a little back > in the day. > > I don't think I had the sources, just a .EXE, so that may not work so well > for Alpha. Now THAT is interesting! I wonder where it went to? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 20 00:00:26 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 00:00:26 -0600 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> Message-ID: <58313BFA.2010004@pico-systems.com> On 11/19/2016 10:35 PM, TeoZ wrote: > http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > First picture, top left is a CDC 92185 tape drive (could be a 92181, but I think it is the first number), 1600/6250 BPI streaming drive. Very rugged, most likely still works. If it is a SCSI drive, I may want it, or want boards from it if nobody else does. To the right of it, I really think, is a relabeled Interdata CPU. Jon From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Nov 20 00:06:36 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:06:36 +0000 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: I suspect Kip had a WD1002. It would have had a BIOS PROM on it. I used one of these on my NC4016 computer. I'd also purchased several 5Meg drives for about $5 ea as DOS no longer supported it. These worked fine for my NC4016. I used this to add new instructions to CM-Forth since the processor had a number of useful side effects. I could recompile CM-Forth in less than 15 seconds. Not that big a deal now days but in the time when the hot Intel processor was a 386, it was quite impressive. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Rob Doyle Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:31:22 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers On 11/19/2016 5:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on reverse-engineering > the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers (8X300/8X305-based), and their > clones. I have a hard disk controller for my Heath H100 that uses the 8x300. I didn't realize how common that design was... Rob. From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sun Nov 20 00:21:57 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 01:21:57 -0500 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: <001801d242cc$54f3a160$fedae420$@sc.rr.com> Message-ID: <000601d242f6$6597c940$30c75bc0$@sc.rr.com> Hi Eric, Thank you for the information and correction. I was going entirely from memory obviously. :) That project was approximately 37 years ago! Now I want to find that old controller so I can see what the correct model is. I'll know it right away since it has my eprom on it. I'll let you know what the card number is when I find it. I'm going to be working out there in the next few days anyway. This should prove to be fun. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Eric Smith > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 12:20 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers > > On Sat, Nov 19, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Kip Koon wrote: > > > When you have a stable version, please let me know. > > > I'll try to remember to post an update here. > > I would be interested in seeing the disassembled source code for the > > WD1000 8-bit card I modified years ago. > > I had an MFM hard drive or two that I was trying to format, but the 4 sets > > of hard drive parameters offered by the WD1000 didn't match one of my hard > > drives so I replaced one of the sets of hard drive parameters by reading > > the eprom using my homebrew eprom burner setup I built for my Color > > Computer 1 F Board version way back when I was in my 20s. > > > > The WD1000 itself doesn't store any hard drive parameters. It just assumes > that the host knows the correct ranges of cylinders heads, and sectors to > use. I think the EPROM you describe that has stored drive parameters must > be have been a firmware BIOS EPROM that was executed by the host system. > It's possible that some variation of the WD1000, e.g., for ISA bus, had > such a thing, but I've only concerned myself with the firmware that > actually runs on the 8X300 processor on the WD1000, so nothing I'm doing > will help in any way with an EPROM as you describe. > > I did design and wire-wrap a WD1000 to Color Computer 2 interface back in > the day, and wrote an OS/9 driver for it, though I never wrote any boot ROM > for it, so I had to boot from floppy. > > > > After reinstalling the WD1000 back into the computer, the WD1000 came > > right up and asked for my choice to pick for the hard drive parameters to > > use to format the hard drive with! It even included the set of hard drive > > parameters I had put into the eprom! I was very proud of what I had > > accomplished! > > > > Rightfully so. I've done a lot of firmware hacking over the years, but I > never needed to do it to change disk geometry. It really sucked that so > many controllers had only hard-coded choices in their BIOS ROMs; thankfully > by the 1990s almost all of them were configurable. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 20 00:32:44 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:32:44 -0800 Subject: Archiving Fortune 32:16 bits In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <11826bd1-4ecf-de03-de5b-fc5f940d9ccc@sydex.com> On 11/19/2016 04:41 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 11/19/16 4:35 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I dug up everything I had on the system, took pictures and dumped >> firmware and floppies Maybe someone will figure out how to remove >> the serialization some day >> > > forgot to ask, I think the terminal was a Chuck Guzis design, wasn't > it? Yup--but only the monochrome one. I still have the prototype PCB, (but not the keyboard) and the firmware source and a bunch of handwritten engineering drawings. --Chuck From computerdoc at sc.rr.com Sun Nov 20 00:34:01 2016 From: computerdoc at sc.rr.com (Kip Koon) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 01:34:01 -0500 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: , Message-ID: <000001d242f8$15541400$3ffc3c00$@sc.rr.com> Hi Dwight, The WD1002 card number does sound familiar. I'm almost sure that is it. Thanks for the information. I appreciate it. Kip Koon computerdoc at sc.rr.com http://www.cocopedia.com/wiki/index.php/Kip_Koon > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of dwight > Sent: Sunday, November 20, 2016 1:07 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers > > I suspect Kip had a WD1002. It would have had a BIOS PROM on it. I used one of these on my NC4016 computer. I'd also purchased > several 5Meg drives for about $5 ea as DOS no longer supported it. These worked fine for my NC4016. I used this to add new > instructions to CM-Forth since the processor had a number of useful side effects. I could recompile CM-Forth in less than 15 seconds. > Not that big a deal now days but in the time when the hot Intel processor was a 386, it was quite impressive. > > Dwight > > > > ________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Rob Doyle > Sent: Saturday, November 19, 2016 9:31:22 PM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers > > On 11/19/2016 5:06 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > I've been working a little bit off-and-on for years on > > reverse-engineering the WD1000 and WD1001 disk controllers > > (8X300/8X305-based), and their clones. > > I have a hard disk controller for my Heath H100 that uses the 8x300. > > I didn't realize how common that design was... > > Rob. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 20 00:53:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:53:40 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5688bcf7-c62b-6ef3-ca41-de4796b8b4f7@sydex.com> On 11/19/2016 09:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > True, but for all that I have read about the actual use of the /20 > that was not what it was for. IBM used the /20's as a smart terminal > and that kind of thing. The thing in between the mainframe and > something else operating in a remote location, and so on. The Model 20 could use 2311 disks (model 11 or 12) as well as the 2415 tape drive. And there *was* a disk operating system of sorts: DPS: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/model20/C24-9006-4_260-20_CtlPgm_Mar69.pdf Even has S/360 type JCL--and note that PL/I is mentioned. Incredible. One wonders how many "loaded" Model 20 systems were deployed. An awful lot were sold as unit-record system replacements. If you had a disk, IBM really tried to squeeze things small. DOS/360, IIRC, could be shoved into a resident with no more than 8KB. Lots of transient phases, though. --Chuck From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Nov 20 01:02:01 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 02:02:01 -0500 Subject: I knew my deceased uncle worked for EAI after retireing from Signal Corps I Message-ID: <1d133.1785be8b.4562a469@aol.com> I found this ad! >From what I knew of him he was more of an admin type person than a hands on person.. If anyone else finds something related to him at EAI let me know. When I worked for him before I had started my computer business and stayed at his house I do not remember much of any hoarded stash of anything... must be from living then Army life for over 20 years where you moved all the time.. ============================= anyway here is the ad I found! ========================== 230 Dataplotter Designed for time-share users I self-contained, desktop device, compatibly interfaced to keyboard terminals and acoustic couplers / operates at maximum speed in all directions'l includes easy-to-use FORTRAN plot ting subroutines. Electronic Associates, Inc. 185 Monmouth Pkwy. West Long Branch, N.J. 07764 Attn: Ed Sharpe COMPUTERS and AUTOMATION for March, 1971 Ed Sharpe ( the younger) Archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 20 01:12:29 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:12:29 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <162de15c-c386-06ae-8d85-365b44f1c478@sbcglobal.net> References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> <162de15c-c386-06ae-8d85-365b44f1c478@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <0e9b2657-c0e7-67f7-3dd6-ea6408760428@jwsss.com> On 11/19/2016 9:20 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > It could be a 7/32 or 8/32. There will be some custom Triad boards > inside. Their systems were used in auto parts and hardware stores. > Disk drives may be Hawks. The terminals were plasma screens designed > in house. The printers are TI Omni 800's rebadged Triad. > It looks like there are some CRT terminals on the floor. They are what > I designed for them. It was my first Job out of college. > I worked at Triad from 1970-1981. I forwarded this to the guys here in Southern California who last worked for them, Art Shahan and Dale Tyler. Also Rod Quigley if you know any of them, Bob. They may have interest as they were the ones who turned out the lights. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 20 01:14:26 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:14:26 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <58313BFA.2010004@pico-systems.com> References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> <58313BFA.2010004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/2016 10:00 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> > First picture, top left is a CDC 92185 tape drive (could be a 92181, > but I think it is the first number), 1600/6250 BPI streaming drive. > Very rugged, most likely still works. If it is a SCSI drive, I may > want it, or want boards from it if nobody else does. The disk drives look a lot like Priam SMD drives. Two to a tray, 8" form factor. About 150 or 300mb IIRC. They had a very nice open frame 60mb and 90mb drive which i have a specimen of somewhere as well that proceeded the 8" product. I don't think they survived to make any later products. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sun Nov 20 01:18:05 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 19 Nov 2016 23:18:05 -0800 Subject: New family member In-Reply-To: <26aabdc9-888d-7ac1-9879-642f6511a535@jwsss.com> References: <26aabdc9-888d-7ac1-9879-642f6511a535@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On 11/18/2016 12:16 AM, jim stephens wrote: > Some may recall the Nova 3 front panel discussion some months back. I > bought a Nova 3 front panel just for the heck of it, and we discussed > replacing lamp, and have the correct lamp info now. > > Nova 3 CPU, 2 16K boards, Basic I/O and > > Anyway the Nova 3 karma system was watching and guess what. > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/11/data-general-nova-3.html I updated the page, and found out that there is a Datum 4091EC disk controller in slot 12 optioned for a Diablo 30. I was wondering if anyone has any info on those as well as the Datum card. Is there a similar effort to get an emulator for the Diablo drive as there is for the RL02? From the Diablo info on Bitsavers it says that Datum used the 5440 drives, which would be similar to the RL02, Western Dynex, and Microdata 7000 Marathon drives, all of which used the top loading 2.5 and 5mb cartridges. I know the Alto guys all are using the front loading Diablo drives, and wondered if that is similar? Lots to learn about the system. thanks jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 06:52:20 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 07:52:20 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <5688bcf7-c62b-6ef3-ca41-de4796b8b4f7@sydex.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> <5688bcf7-c62b-6ef3-ca41-de4796b8b4f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Nov 20, 2016 1:54 AM, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > > On 11/19/2016 09:56 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > True, but for all that I have read about the actual use of the /20 > > that was not what it was for. IBM used the /20's as a smart terminal > > and that kind of thing. The thing in between the mainframe and > > something else operating in a remote location, and so on. > > The Model 20 could use 2311 disks (model 11 or 12) as well as the 2415 > tape drive. And there *was* a disk operating system of sorts: DPS: > > http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/ibm/360/model20/C24-9006-4_260-20_CtlPgm_Mar69.pdf > > Even has S/360 type JCL--and note that PL/I is mentioned. Incredible. > > One wonders how many "loaded" Model 20 systems were deployed. An awful > lot were sold as unit-record system replacements. > > If you had a disk, IBM really tried to squeeze things small. DOS/360, > IIRC, could be shoved into a resident with no more than 8KB. Lots of > transient phases, though. > > --Chuck > Theoretical uses of a /20 aside, the Sperry Rand proposal I scanned claims that a 418-III is a computer with the equivalent performance of a 360/44 or /50 at /40 prices. Not cheap but you'd save thousands of $$'s. They offer a , 9400 (and related hardware) system as an option local machine that can be geared with/paired to time shared 418-III. The teaches us today what UNIVAC thought back then was a smaet reasonable alternative config should the customer not want to spend 418-III money. You don't get this kind of cross-system comparison from the manuals alone. Considering how they included only 9000 series brochures in the proposal binder...perhaps it was done to push the 9000 option as a smart "new-way" alternative, or because everyone already knew about the 418 series stuff, less so the 9000. At the end of the proposal is the brochure from the time sharing partner company. Old Computer World's from the time had a lot of ads for timesharing services. Bill From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Nov 20 08:46:31 2016 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:46:31 -0500 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> Message-ID: <20161120094631.035eb3dd@verticle> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:12:17 -0800 Josh Dersch wrote: > Looks like a rebadged Interdata 7/32 (or similar) to me. Someone > should try to rescue that; they're very rare... > > > - Josh > > > On 11/19/16 8:35 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html > > > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > Triad was an auto parts vertical market system vendor back in the '80s (maybe earlier, not sure). I looked at one of these systems back in the mid-80s with a Triad rep and the owners of a auto parts warehouse/jobber chain I worked for, who were considering purchasing one. I was told the hardware was based on TI 990 gear. At least that one, anyway. I wasn't able to inspect the boards, however. The terminals are an interesting design, for sure, but I dunno if they're TI. The boss eventually went with a Xenix system (Altos 3086) running another vendor's software package. The Triad certainly was an interesting beast, though. The system I saw was in Beaufort, SC. The scrapper's is in Florence. It's conceivable they are one and the same. Jobber had a store in Florence, IIRC. jbdigriz From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 20 08:59:46 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 06:59:46 -0800 Subject: Archiving Fortune 32:16 bits In-Reply-To: <11826bd1-4ecf-de03-de5b-fc5f940d9ccc@sydex.com> References: <11826bd1-4ecf-de03-de5b-fc5f940d9ccc@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/16 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > the firmware source and a bunch of handwritten > engineering drawings. > i'd like to add that to the archive. it is the monochrome one From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 20 09:07:05 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 07:07:05 -0800 Subject: New family member In-Reply-To: References: <26aabdc9-888d-7ac1-9879-642f6511a535@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <9da48151-051d-2cc0-4f11-a77564c4bfb5@bitsavers.org> On 11/19/16 11:18 PM, jim stephens wrote: > I updated the page, and found out that there is a Datum 4091EC disk controller in slot 12 optioned for a Diablo 30. I > was wondering if anyone has any info on those as well as the Datum card. Is there a similar effort to get an emulator > for the Diablo drive as there is for the RL02? Yes, indirectly. It is being worked on by Carl Claunch for the Alto restoration project. From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 20 09:05:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 07:05:00 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> <58313BFA.2010004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On 11/19/16 11:14 PM, jim stephens wrote: > The disk drives look a lot like Priam SMD drives. Two to a tray, 8" form factor. About 150 or 300mb IIRC. They had a > very nice open frame 60mb and 90mb drive which i have a specimen of somewhere as well that proceeded the 8" product. I > don't think they survived to make any later products. Their 8" drives were available with a couple of different interfaces Some companies building Multibus and Qbus systems sold them. The Multibus systems generally used Ciprico Rimfire controllers. They also made a 80mb disk system for the Lisa called the DataTower. Priam bought Vertex and survived into the 5" era The priam 519 is equivalent to the Maxtor 2190 From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 20 11:15:12 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 09:15:12 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> <58313BFA.2010004@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <65b83df8-5207-276d-d06f-ae60612b94ae@sydex.com> On 11/20/2016 07:05 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > Priam bought Vertex and survived into the 5" era The priam 519 is > equivalent to the Maxtor 2190 ...later acquired by Atasi. I still have a 519 with the Atasi label. I loved the Priam image of a discus thrower. Atasi, IIRC, was acquired by Tandon sometime in the late 80s, I believe. --Chuck From jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org Sun Nov 20 11:32:44 2016 From: jbdigriz at dragonsweb.org (James B DiGriz) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 12:32:44 -0500 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <14BE88FEA09B4F37BFDDF333AC63EC77@TeoPC> Message-ID: <20161120123244.6c62f797@verticle> On Sat, 19 Nov 2016 21:12:17 -0800 Josh Dersch wrote: > Looks like a rebadged Interdata 7/32 (or similar) to me. Someone > should try to rescue that; they're very rare... > > > - Josh > > > On 11/19/16 8:35 PM, TeoZ wrote: > > http://www.scrapmetalforum.com/general-electronics-recycling/30872-old-computer-peripherals-main-frame-etc-should-i.html > > > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > > > Sure looks like an 7/32 or 8/32 front panel. I am a few hundred from Florence. Too much for me to take on right now, but I do have a 10x10 available to me reasonable, that I was planning to get anyway. I'm willing to pick up, or assist, and store temporarily if anyone wants to rescue this system. jbdigriz From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sun Nov 20 13:20:47 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:20:47 +0000 (WET) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 19 Nov 2016 22:39:45 -0700 (MST)" References: <8GB0cpqq5mNym8GB1cb3on@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01Q7JV9WVO9Q00159O@beyondthepale.ie> On Sun, 20 Nov 2016, Antonio Carlini wrote: > There is a rogue that runs on VAX/VMS as I definitely played it a little back > in the day. > > I don't think I had the sources, just a .EXE, so that may not work so well > for Alpha. > It is probably possible to translate the VAX executable to an Alpha executable using VEST. The DECMIGRATE license included in the VMS hobbyist license allows VEST to run. Back in the day, it was sometimes easier to do this than to fix VAX MACRO source that had too many VAXish assumptions to compile it on Alpha. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 20 13:42:15 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:42:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping Message-ID: <20161120194215.5E86018C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > Someone should try to rescue that; they're very rare... I personally don't want to get into this (I'm already knee-deep in PDP-11 stuff), but I can help with the logistics; I'm down in SE Virginia, very close to the NC line. So if someone wants to do this, but is e.g. on the West Coast, I can wrangle getting it, and getting it shipped out. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sun Nov 20 13:45:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:45:33 -0500 (EST) Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) Message-ID: <20161120194533.71E3F18C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jon Elson > if they were doing mostly RPG work, then a /20 could do that. This is a _long_ time ago, and I was a junior operator, not a programmer, but I know most (maybe all) of their work was in RPG. Noel From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Nov 20 14:02:13 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:02:13 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> <5688bcf7-c62b-6ef3-ca41-de4796b8b4f7@sydex.com> Message-ID: <20161120200212.GB6662@lonesome.com> On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 07:52:20AM -0500, william degnan wrote: > Old Computerworlds from the time had a lot of ads for timesharing > services. That was before everyone decided it was far cheaper and saner to own and administer their own systems. (ahem.) Mark "everything old is new again" Linimon From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 20 15:32:01 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 13:32:01 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <20161120200212.GB6662@lonesome.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <4c4a52fe-4b88-89dd-7348-cba0758db96d@sydex.com> <582FCE25.5080204@pico-systems.com> <16d99ec5-2f58-fd14-e1d2-46178b667956@sydex.com> <583090BD.7010103@pico-systems.com> <5688bcf7-c62b-6ef3-ca41-de4796b8b4f7@sydex.com> <20161120200212.GB6662@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <8ef54878-9100-2adc-c54e-bf36b0d4c275@sydex.com> On 11/20/2016 12:02 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 07:52:20AM -0500, william degnan wrote: >> Old Computerworlds from the time had a lot of ads for timesharing >> services. > > That was before everyone decided it was far cheaper and saner to own > and administer their own systems. > > (ahem.) Ahems, aside. There was a definite market for outfits like SBC, Tymshare and EDS back in the day. They afforded three things that "owning your own" couldn't quite achieve for most commercial users. The first was networking (such as it was back then) and remote access by various branch offices to the same data. ISTR that SBC was the basis for Ticketron, for example. Networking (over common carrier lines) was hugely expensive back then. The second was expertise--the service bureau had experts in DP and could guide an unsuspecting user through the maze of DP machinations. No need to write your own applications; the SB probably had something to fit the bill. The third was availability of maintained hardware. Sure, you might have a service contract with IBM or CDC, but when your system went down, all you could do was stand around fidgeting while your machine was helped back to its feet. SBs always had spare capacity for your job--and could expedite (for a fee). Recall also, that back in the day, much of BDP was batch-oriented, not interactive. Interestingly, after a decline, service bureaus are coming back in the role of 3D printing providers. --Chuck From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sun Nov 20 15:52:28 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 13:52:28 -0800 Subject: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <20161120194215.5E86018C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161120194215.5E86018C075@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11/20/2016 11:42 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > Someone should try to rescue that; they're very rare... > > I personally don't want to get into this (I'm already knee-deep in PDP-11 > stuff), but I can help with the logistics; I'm down in SE Virginia, very > close to the NC line. So if someone wants to do this, but is e.g. on the West > Coast, I can wrangle getting it, and getting it shipped out. > > Noel > I'm thinking about. I'm in California so shipping won't be cheap, and so far, I have not been able to contact the owner. I really don't need any more systems, but it was my first job our of college and I have a soft spot for Triad. Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 20 16:07:08 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:07:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: owning the hardware was Re: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <20161120200212.GB6662@lonesome.com> from Mark Linimon at "Nov 20, 16 02:02:13 pm" Message-ID: <201611202207.uAKM78No7012510@floodgap.com> > > Old Computerworlds from the time had a lot of ads for timesharing > > services. > > That was before everyone decided it was far cheaper and saner to own > and administer their own systems. > (ahem.) I will say on the personal side, as someone who has run their own do-everything server continuously since 1998 (and I'm sure I'm hardly the longest running person on this list), it's without a doubt cheaper to just buy a VM slice nowadays. In fact, my backup mail exchanger is a FreeBSD slice on the lowest tier since all it has to do exchange mail when the main machine goes down. Currently, my monthly bill is $400 for the T1 (it's what I could get out here that was server-grade) and somewhere around $150-$200 for power, plus my time when the crap hits the fan and parts need to be ordered and installed. Then there's the amortized cost of the $10,000 POWER6 I've used since 2010, though I freely admit that purchase was overkill (the Apple Network Server it replaced was also around $10,000 but I got that for "work for us over the summer and we'll throw in the equipment you're already using"; the POWER6 was convenient since it runs all of the ANS' AIX binaries without comment). The VM slice costs $20. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- 1-GHz Pentium-III + Java + XSLT == 1-MHz 6502. -- Craig Bruce -------------- From spectre at floodgap.com Sun Nov 20 16:52:54 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 14:52:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: <01Q7JV9WVO9Q00159O@beyondthepale.ie> from Peter Coghlan at "Nov 20, 16 07:20:47 pm" Message-ID: <201611202252.uAKMqscw5046274@floodgap.com> > There is a rogue that runs on VAX/VMS as I definitely played it a little back > in the day. There's a Rogue for the Alpha Micro. I don't have source for it either, but it runs very well. http://ampm.floodgap.com/www/downld.htm -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- You cannot trust this technology stuff. -- Ira Oldham ---------------------- From chd at chdickman.com Sun Nov 20 17:30:23 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 18:30:23 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only half > populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an adder? This made me curious about how primitive it was, but the FE docs on bitsavers show a 16bit ALU that can do ADD, AND, OR and XOR and maybe some logic to help with BCD math. From elson at pico-systems.com Sun Nov 20 18:29:20 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 18:29:20 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> On 11/20/2016 05:30 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only half >> populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an adder? > This made me curious about how primitive it was, but the FE docs on > bitsavers show a 16bit ALU that can do ADD, AND, OR and XOR and maybe > some logic to help with BCD math. > OK, in this manual : http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/Z26-5908_360-20_FE_Manual_Of_Instruction_Aug65.pdf They describe the functions available in microcode. They are REALLY limited! See Page 1-23, Description, item 4. They have data transfer and increment and decrement. Period! I don't see ANYTHING that relates to ALU functions! Maybe I missed it, it seems really hard to believe. and then page 1-27 describing what the increment and decrement commands do. Notably, they note that the registers contain values from 0-15, ie. a 4-bit field. Maybe I missed the whole point of what they are describing here, but this seems to be somewhat consistent with what you can pack into a 16-bit microinstruction, namely, not a lot. Take a look in this manual and see if you get a different impression. Jon From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 18:29:58 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 01:29:58 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) Message-ID: <3e04cad3-4a36-e061-cb14-bf573e13c747@gmail.com> The following is for sale, or trade possibly. Most of the listed items I've used together with SGI IRIX and HP/Compaq/DEC OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX systems and served me very well. I need to sell this by the end of the month (Nov-2016), else I'll have to potentially scrap a considerable bunch of it. I probably forgot to mention a number of things and perhaps I made a few mistakes here and there. I'll try to update (and if needed, correct) this list with follow-up posts. For now, this is the list of items: - SGI systems, e.g. MIPS R5000 and R5200 processor equipped O2s notably, perhaps also a teal Indigo? with 250-MHz R4400, at least 256 Mbytes (also up to 1 Gbyte available) of RAM, various types of CPUs available, along with various other options in terms of disks, video I/O, etc. (ask me) --> suggestion: if you don't care for IRIX, an O2 would still make an excellent X terminal to any e.g. other system, too, as they don't consume a lot of power and they're wonderfully small; - SGI parts, like an SGI Tezro dual-processor 700-MHz R16000 system board and an SGI DMediaPro DM10 IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card plus cable and manual; - DEC Multia/UDB VX40B, maximized, with 166-MHz LCA4/21066 processor, the maximum amount of RAM (256 Mbytes), large 73.4-Gbyte 2?" SCSI HDD (with Tru64 UNIX V5.1B[-5?] optionally pre-installed, OpenVMS V7.2 also works on it, the original vertical stand and documents are present, too), Ensoniq AudioPCI (16-bit 48-KHz) audio card, replacement NVRAM/TOY back-up battery, experimental SRM console, PCI audio card and custom-shoehorned, etc.; - various older/non-x86 or compatible computer (besides earlier mentioned SGI, e.g. DEC, Compaq and HP) bits & parts, think of FireWire (e.g. IEEE-1394a), audio, etc. cards, cables and such ... included are things like an AlphaServer DS15-compatible PCI audio card, HP IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card (rare, should work in some HP Integrity systems) and more (ask me for details); - Exar/Neterion/S2io 10-Gbit fiber-optical (10GBASE-SR) PCI-X Ethernet NICs including transceivers, besides x86/-64 also OpenVMS and IRIX compatible (and tried/used in various systems, including HP rx2600s, rx2620s and a DS15 and also an SGI Tezro), LC FC cables optionally available, too; - Mellanox 40-Gbit InfiniBand PCI-E adapters (3 total), optional copper and fiber-optical cables, in various lengths, are also available; - various (e.g. HP) HBAs, notably SCSI (e.g. Ultra160 and Ultra320) and FC (e.g. 2-Gbit and 4-Gbit), for PCI/-X or PCI-E, many PCI/-X cards also compatible with IRIX and even OpenVMS, some include the HP-branded "combo" types, providing both dual-channel FC (HBA) and Ethernet (NIC); - various optical/tape drives and media (e.g. DVD-RAM, various data & cleaning tapes, of which many brand new), DDS/DAT of many types (e.g. DDS-2/DAT12, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-4/DAT40 and DDS-5/DAT72) Ultrium (mostly LTO-1 and LTO-3), mostly of brands like HP (notably), Quantum and Sony... to summarize several: -- HP Ultrium LTO-3 SCSI half-height tape drives -- Quantum Ultrium LTO-1 SCSI full-height tape drive -- various Ultrium LTO-3, -2 and -1 cleaning and data cartridge tapes (mostly HP-branded) -- various (HP and Sony-branded) DDS-4/DAT40 tape drives, also one DDS-5/DAT72 drive, all with -- various DDS-5/DAT72, DDS-4/DAT40, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-2/DAT12 and DDS-1/DAT8 tapes; - various DVD-RAM discs, both with and without the plastic caddies; - various HP, AXUS and Ciprico brand Ultra320 SCSI/S-ATA-bridged & 2-Gbit or 4-Gbit FC external enclosures, for HDDs (optionally including large capacity HDDs, also hardware RAID functionality depending per enclosure), 5?" devices and more (these can be tricky to ship, but not impossible), to summarize some of it: -- AXUS Demon SA-16U4P Ultra320 SCSI<=>S-ATA RAID storage enclosure, including 16 * 1-Tbyte S-ATA HDDs and spares --> advantages: relative low power consumption and triple-redundant power -- Ciprico/Huge Systems MediaVault 4-Gbit FC/FC-AL RAID disk array, including transceivers, 10 * 250-Gbyte P-ATA HDDs plus one or more spare HDDs --> advantages: low power consumption and rather silent -- HP StorageWorks M5313A FC/FC-AL 2-Gbit (JBOD) disk array, including transceivers and 14 * 146.8-Gbyte FC HDDs and one or two spare HDDs, too --> note: perhaps not useful for OpenVMS users as-is, as JBOD and FC-AL are a no-go, but it can be used in a larger SAN setup; - various types of printed documents/documentation (various manuals and reference guides, from e.g. SGI and Intel); - APC Smart-UPS 3000 XLM (heavy-duty, 3000VA capacity) UPS back-up battery aggregate power system, plus special APC RJ-45 USB cable (the whole unit is perhaps hard to ship, but not impossible I guess), this UPS can sustain e.g. several 2U and even some 4U HP Integrity servers for up to 30~40 minutes (depending on the loads, of course); - HP OpenVMS Alpha V8.4 SPL (Software Product Library) July 2010, including the original box and 'documents'; - lots of relatively recent 300-Gbyte and 146.8-Gbyte 80-pin (SCA/-2) and 68-pin 10K and some 15K RPM, hot-swap, SCSI HDDs (most are HP-branded); - older <=9-Gbyte SCSI disks, from various vendors, some with (e.g. DEC) firmware, with 50-, 68- and 80-pin (SCA/-2) connectors (many DEC and Compaq/HP-branded ones, relevant for OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX, too); - HP StorageWorks 3U external 5?" SCSI expansion enclosure, room for 4 (68-pin) SCSI devices (including optical drives, tape drives and including full-height models); - PCMCIA and PC card items: SanDisk CompactFlash card reader, SIIG IEEE-1394a adapter, USB 2.0 adapter and an Adaptec Fast SCSI adapter plus cable; - Apple ADB and serial items: Griffin iMate adapters (2 total, 1 in original packaging) and Keyspan adapter; - Chieftec SNT-3141 S-ATA HDD backplane plus sleds and I can provide 3 * free 250-Gbyte S-ATA HDDs --> suggestion: perhaps useful for in a system like the HP zx2000 (if it fits, of course; I never tried it); - IBM System x central fan tray (P/N: 90P4618, FRU P/N: 26K4761) and also (e.g.) x346 rack rails (might fit on other devices/systems, too), SCSI HDD caddies, fans and more (ask me); - HP KVMIP console (PN 262589-821) 8-port extender hub, no power supply required for this; - Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler, professional grade (original box present), useful for some computers and monitors to correct aspect ratios; - non-computer items, or indirectly: professional SDI equipment, like JVC-branded CRT and LCD monitors, Miranda bridges (including for IEEE-1394a FireWire to SDI) and more, also many cables of various lengths available and also photo & video equipment (e.g. Nikon D70 plus Nikon Nikkor AF-S 18-70mm f/1:3.5-4.5G zoom lens, a barely used Sony HDR-FX1000/E plus accessories and various bits & parts and a Tamron TV Zoom Lens 12.5-75mm f/1.8 with C mount with constant aperture over the zoom range). All the items are located in the Netherlands. I'll provide more information and pictures on demand. As far as possible trades go. I'm mostly interested in lenses (mostly in Nikon F/G, Pentax K, Leica M, Leica M39, M42 and Sony E-Mount mounts), in particular fast longer telephoto lenses (135mm and above), also enlarger lenses. - MG From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 21:12:11 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 19:12:11 -0800 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Nov 8, 2016 6:43 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > > well, not just ANY Multibus board > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 > As a follow on two bare 432/100 just sold for $1700 http://www.ebay.com/itm/262714109154 From george.rachor at gmail.com Sun Nov 20 22:15:18 2016 From: george.rachor at gmail.com (George Rachor) Date: Sun, 20 Nov 2016 20:15:18 -0800 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Time to look at my Inventory (grin). Never had any 432 stuff. George Rachor Sent from my iPhone george at rachors.com > On Nov 20, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > >> On Nov 8, 2016 6:43 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: >> >> well, not just ANY Multibus board >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 > > As a follow on two bare 432/100 just sold for $1700 > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262714109154 From mgariboldi at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 06:07:41 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:07:41 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) Message-ID: The following is for sale, or trade possibly. (I've tried to send this earlier, but it didn't appear in the list, so this is my second try to post htis...) Most of the listed items I've used together with SGI IRIX and HP/Compaq/DEC OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX systems and served me very well. I need to sell this by the end of the month (Nov-2016), else I'll have to potentially scrap a considerable bunch of it. I probably forgot to mention a number of things and perhaps I made a few mistakes here and there. I'll try to update (and if needed, correct) this list with follow-up posts. For now, this is the list of items: - SGI systems, e.g. MIPS R5000 and R5200 processor equipped O2s notably, perhaps also a teal Indigo? with 250-MHz R4400, at least 256 Mbytes (also up to 1 Gbyte available) of RAM, various types of CPUs available, along with various other options in terms of disks, video I/O, etc. (ask me) --> suggestion: if you don't care for IRIX, an O2 would still make an excellent X terminal to any e.g. other system, too, as they don't consume a lot of power and they're wonderfully small; - SGI parts, like an SGI Tezro dual-processor 700-MHz R16000 system board and an SGI DMediaPro DM10 IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card plus cable and manual; - DEC Multia/UDB VX40B, maximized, with 166-MHz LCA4/21066 processor, the maximum amount of RAM (256 Mbytes), large 73.4-Gbyte 2?" SCSI HDD (with Tru64 UNIX V5.1B[-5?] optionally pre-installed, OpenVMS V7.2 also works on it, the original vertical stand and documents are present, too), Ensoniq AudioPCI (16-bit 48-KHz) audio card, replacement NVRAM/TOY back-up battery, experimental SRM console, PCI audio card and custom-shoehorned, etc.; - various older/non-x86 or compatible computer (besides earlier mentioned SGI, e.g. DEC, Compaq and HP) bits & parts, think of FireWire (e.g. IEEE-1394a), audio, etc. cards, cables and such ... included are things like an AlphaServer DS15-compatible PCI audio card, HP IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card (rare, should work in some HP Integrity systems) and more (ask me for details); - Exar/Neterion/S2io 10-Gbit fiber-optical (10GBASE-SR) PCI-X Ethernet NICs including transceivers, besides x86/-64 also OpenVMS and IRIX compatible (and tried/used in various systems, including HP rx2600s, rx2620s and a DS15 and also an SGI Tezro), LC FC cables optionally available, too; - Mellanox 40-Gbit InfiniBand PCI-E adapters (3 total), optional copper and fiber-optical cables, in various lengths, are also available; - various (e.g. HP) HBAs, notably SCSI (e.g. Ultra160 and Ultra320) and FC (e.g. 2-Gbit and 4-Gbit), for PCI/-X or PCI-E, many PCI/-X cards also compatible with IRIX and even OpenVMS, some include the HP-branded "combo" types, providing both dual-channel FC (HBA) and Ethernet (NIC); - various optical/tape drives and media (e.g. DVD-RAM, various data & cleaning tapes, of which many brand new), DDS/DAT of many types (e.g. DDS-2/DAT12, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-4/DAT40 and DDS-5/DAT72) Ultrium (mostly LTO-1 and LTO-3), mostly of brands like HP (notably), Quantum and Sony... to summarize several: -- HP Ultrium LTO-3 SCSI half-height tape drives -- Quantum Ultrium LTO-1 SCSI full-height tape drive -- various Ultrium LTO-3, -2 and -1 cleaning and data cartridge tapes (mostly HP-branded) -- various (HP and Sony-branded) DDS-4/DAT40 tape drives, also one DDS-5/DAT72 drive, all with -- various DDS-5/DAT72, DDS-4/DAT40, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-2/DAT12 and DDS-1/DAT8 tapes; - various DVD-RAM discs, both with and without the plastic caddies; - various HP, AXUS and Ciprico brand Ultra320 SCSI/S-ATA-bridged & 2-Gbit or 4-Gbit FC external enclosures, for HDDs (optionally including large capacity HDDs, also hardware RAID functionality depending per enclosure), 5?" devices and more (these can be tricky to ship, but not impossible), to summarize some of it: -- AXUS Demon SA-16U4P Ultra320 SCSI<=>S-ATA RAID storage enclosure, including 16 * 1-Tbyte S-ATA HDDs and spares --> advantages: relative low power consumption and triple-redundant power -- Ciprico/Huge Systems MediaVault 4-Gbit FC/FC-AL RAID disk array, including transceivers, 10 * 250-Gbyte P-ATA HDDs plus one or more spare HDDs --> advantages: low power consumption and rather silent -- HP StorageWorks M5313A FC/FC-AL 2-Gbit (JBOD) disk array, including transceivers and 14 * 146.8-Gbyte FC HDDs and one or two spare HDDs, too --> note: perhaps not useful for OpenVMS users as-is, as JBOD and FC-AL are a no-go, but it can be used in a larger SAN setup; - various types of printed documents/documentation (various manuals and reference guides, from e.g. SGI and Intel); - APC Smart-UPS 3000 XLM (heavy-duty, 3000VA capacity) UPS back-up battery aggregate power system, plus special APC RJ-45 USB cable (the whole unit is perhaps hard to ship, but not impossible I guess), this UPS can sustain e.g. several 2U and even some 4U HP Integrity servers for up to 30~40 minutes (depending on the loads, of course); - HP OpenVMS Alpha V8.4 SPL (Software Product Library) July 2010, including the original box and 'documents'; - lots of relatively recent 300-Gbyte and 146.8-Gbyte 80-pin (SCA/-2) and 68-pin 10K and some 15K RPM, hot-swap, SCSI HDDs (most are HP-branded); - older <=9-Gbyte SCSI disks, from various vendors, some with (e.g. DEC) firmware, with 50-, 68- and 80-pin (SCA/-2) connectors (many DEC and Compaq/HP-branded ones, relevant for OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX, too); - HP StorageWorks 3U external 5?" SCSI expansion enclosure, room for 4 (68-pin) SCSI devices (including optical drives, tape drives and including full-height models); - PCMCIA and PC card items: SanDisk CompactFlash card reader, SIIG IEEE-1394a adapter, USB 2.0 adapter and an Adaptec Fast SCSI adapter plus cable; - Apple ADB and serial items: Griffin iMate adapters (2 total, 1 in original packaging) and Keyspan adapter; - Chieftec SNT-3141 S-ATA HDD backplane plus sleds and I can provide 3 * free 250-Gbyte S-ATA HDDs --> suggestion: perhaps useful for in a system like the HP zx2000 (if it fits, of course; I never tried it); - IBM System x central fan tray (P/N: 90P4618, FRU P/N: 26K4761) and also (e.g.) x346 rack rails (might fit on other devices/systems, too), SCSI HDD caddies, fans and more (ask me); - HP KVMIP console (PN 262589-821) 8-port extender hub, no power supply required for this; - Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler, professional grade (original box present), useful for some computers and monitors to correct aspect ratios; - non-computer items, or indirectly: professional SDI equipment, like JVC-branded CRT and LCD monitors, Miranda bridges (including for IEEE-1394a FireWire to SDI) and more, also many cables of various lengths available and also photo & video equipment (e.g. Nikon D70 plus Nikon Nikkor AF-S 18-70mm f/1:3.5-4.5G zoom lens, a barely used Sony HDR-FX1000/E plus accessories and various bits & parts and a Tamron TV Zoom Lens 12.5-75mm f/1.8 with C mount with constant aperture over the zoom range). All the items are located in the Netherlands. I'll provide more information and pictures on demand. As far as possible trades go. I'm mostly interested in lenses (mostly in Nikon F/G, Pentax K, Leica M, Leica M39, M42 and Sony E-Mount mounts), in particular fast longer telephoto lenses (135mm and above), also enlarger lenses. - MG From mgariboldi at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 06:24:56 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:24:56 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) Message-ID: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> The following is for sale, or trade possibly. (I've tried to send this earlier, but it didn't appear in the list, so this is my second try to post this...) Most of the listed items I've used together with SGI IRIX and HP/Compaq/DEC OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX systems and served me very well. I need to sell this by the end of the month (Nov-2016), else I'll have to potentially scrap a considerable bunch of it. I probably forgot to mention a number of things and perhaps I made a few mistakes here and there. I'll try to update (and if needed, correct) this list with follow-up posts. For now, this is the list of items: - SGI systems, e.g. MIPS R5000 and R5200 processor equipped O2s notably, perhaps also a teal Indigo? with 250-MHz R4400, at least 256 Mbytes (also up to 1 Gbyte available) of RAM, various types of CPUs available, along with various other options in terms of disks, video I/O, etc. (ask me) --> suggestion: if you don't care for IRIX, an O2 would still make an excellent X terminal to any e.g. other system, too, as they don't consume a lot of power and they're wonderfully small; - SGI parts, like an SGI Tezro dual-processor 700-MHz R16000 system board and an SGI DMediaPro DM10 IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card plus cable and manual; - DEC Multia/UDB VX40B, maximized, with 166-MHz LCA4/21066 processor, the maximum amount of RAM (256 Mbytes), large 73.4-Gbyte 2?" SCSI HDD (with Tru64 UNIX V5.1B[-5?] optionally pre-installed, OpenVMS V7.2 also works on it, the original vertical stand and documents are present, too), Ensoniq AudioPCI (16-bit 48-KHz) audio card, replacement NVRAM/TOY back-up battery, experimental SRM console, PCI audio card and custom-shoehorned, etc.; - various older/non-x86 or compatible computer (besides earlier mentioned SGI, e.g. DEC, Compaq and HP) bits & parts, think of FireWire (e.g. IEEE-1394a), audio, etc. cards, cables and such ... included are things like an AlphaServer DS15-compatible PCI audio card, HP IEEE-1394a FireWire PCI card (rare, should work in some HP Integrity systems) and more (ask me for details); - Exar/Neterion/S2io 10-Gbit fiber-optical (10GBASE-SR) PCI-X Ethernet NICs including transceivers, besides x86/-64 also OpenVMS and IRIX compatible (and tried/used in various systems, including HP rx2600s, rx2620s and a DS15 and also an SGI Tezro), LC FC cables optionally available, too; - Mellanox 40-Gbit InfiniBand PCI-E adapters (3 total), optional copper and fiber-optical cables, in various lengths, are also available; - various (e.g. HP) HBAs, notably SCSI (e.g. Ultra160 and Ultra320) and FC (e.g. 2-Gbit and 4-Gbit), for PCI/-X or PCI-E, many PCI/-X cards also compatible with IRIX and even OpenVMS, some include the HP-branded "combo" types, providing both dual-channel FC (HBA) and Ethernet (NIC); - various optical/tape drives and media (e.g. DVD-RAM, various data & cleaning tapes, of which many brand new), DDS/DAT of many types (e.g. DDS-2/DAT12, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-4/DAT40 and DDS-5/DAT72) Ultrium (mostly LTO-1 and LTO-3), mostly of brands like HP (notably), Quantum and Sony... to summarize several: -- HP Ultrium LTO-3 SCSI half-height tape drives -- Quantum Ultrium LTO-1 SCSI full-height tape drive -- various Ultrium LTO-3, -2 and -1 cleaning and data cartridge tapes (mostly HP-branded) -- various (HP and Sony-branded) DDS-4/DAT40 tape drives, also one DDS-5/DAT72 drive, all with -- various DDS-5/DAT72, DDS-4/DAT40, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-2/DAT12 and DDS-1/DAT8 tapes; - various DVD-RAM discs, both with and without the plastic caddies; - various HP, AXUS and Ciprico brand Ultra320 SCSI/S-ATA-bridged & 2-Gbit or 4-Gbit FC external enclosures, for HDDs (optionally including large capacity HDDs, also hardware RAID functionality depending per enclosure), 5?" devices and more (these can be tricky to ship, but not impossible), to summarize some of it: -- AXUS Demon SA-16U4P Ultra320 SCSI<=>S-ATA RAID storage enclosure, including 16 * 1-Tbyte S-ATA HDDs and spares --> advantages: relative low power consumption and triple-redundant power -- Ciprico/Huge Systems MediaVault 4-Gbit FC/FC-AL RAID disk array, including transceivers, 10 * 250-Gbyte P-ATA HDDs plus one or more spare HDDs --> advantages: low power consumption and rather silent -- HP StorageWorks M5313A FC/FC-AL 2-Gbit (JBOD) disk array, including transceivers and 14 * 146.8-Gbyte FC HDDs and one or two spare HDDs, too --> note: perhaps not useful for OpenVMS users as-is, as JBOD and FC-AL are a no-go, but it can be used in a larger SAN setup; - various types of printed documents/documentation (various manuals and reference guides, from e.g. SGI and Intel); - APC Smart-UPS 3000 XLM (heavy-duty, 3000VA capacity) UPS back-up battery aggregate power system, plus special APC RJ-45 USB cable (the whole unit is perhaps hard to ship, but not impossible I guess), this UPS can sustain e.g. several 2U and even some 4U HP Integrity servers for up to 30~40 minutes (depending on the loads, of course); - HP OpenVMS Alpha V8.4 SPL (Software Product Library) July 2010, including the original box and 'documents'; - lots of relatively recent 300-Gbyte and 146.8-Gbyte 80-pin (SCA/-2) and 68-pin 10K and some 15K RPM, hot-swap, SCSI HDDs (most are HP-branded); - older <=9-Gbyte SCSI disks, from various vendors, some with (e.g. DEC) firmware, with 50-, 68- and 80-pin (SCA/-2) connectors (many DEC and Compaq/HP-branded ones, relevant for OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX, too); - HP StorageWorks 3U external 5?" SCSI expansion enclosure, room for 4 (68-pin) SCSI devices (including optical drives, tape drives and including full-height models); - PCMCIA and PC card items: SanDisk CompactFlash card reader, SIIG IEEE-1394a adapter, USB 2.0 adapter and an Adaptec Fast SCSI adapter plus cable; - Apple ADB and serial items: Griffin iMate adapters (2 total, 1 in original packaging) and Keyspan adapter; - Chieftec SNT-3141 S-ATA HDD backplane plus sleds and I can provide 3 * free 250-Gbyte S-ATA HDDs --> suggestion: perhaps useful for in a system like the HP zx2000 (if it fits, of course; I never tried it); - IBM System x central fan tray (P/N: 90P4618, FRU P/N: 26K4761) and also (e.g.) x346 rack rails (might fit on other devices/systems, too), SCSI HDD caddies, fans and more (ask me); - HP KVMIP console (PN 262589-821) 8-port extender hub, no power supply required for this; - Gefen 1080p HDMI scaler, professional grade (original box present), useful for some computers and monitors to correct aspect ratios; - non-computer items, or indirectly: professional SDI equipment, like JVC-branded CRT and LCD monitors, Miranda bridges (including for IEEE-1394a FireWire to SDI) and more, also many cables of various lengths available and also photo & video equipment (e.g. Nikon D70 plus Nikon Nikkor AF-S 18-70mm f/1:3.5-4.5G zoom lens, a barely used Sony HDR-FX1000/E plus accessories and various bits & parts and a Tamron TV Zoom Lens 12.5-75mm f/1.8 with C mount with constant aperture over the zoom range). All the items are located in the Netherlands. I'll provide more information and pictures on demand. As far as possible trades go. I'm mostly interested in lenses (mostly in Nikon F/G, Pentax K, Leica M, Leica M39, M42 and Sony E-Mount mounts), in particular fast longer telephoto lenses (135mm and above), also enlarger lenses. - MG From mgariboldi at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 08:24:44 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:24:44 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> References: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> Message-ID: My apologies for (possibly) double-posting, because the thread didn't show up in my Gmail account (for whatever reason). - MG From lproven at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 09:10:51 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:10:51 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: References: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 21 November 2016 at 15:24, MG wrote: > My apologies for (possibly) double-posting, because the thread didn't show > up in my Gmail account (for whatever reason). Gmail tends to suppress display of your own posts to mailing lists, unless or until they get comments/replies. It's annoying. It also always breaks threads if someone changes the subject line. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven Skype/MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 21 09:34:28 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:34:28 +0100 Subject: Slide Rails for Integrity and/or BA23 Message-ID: <20161121153427.GA11821@Update.UU.SE> Hi I've just brought home a 42U rack and started mounting things currently in shelves and on the floor. But I'm missing some hard to get slide rails. Does anyone have a spare set of rails for an Integrity rx2620 or QBUS BA23 box for sale? The Integrity rails look like this: http://www.trademoon.com/assets/images/default/A6939AZ.JPG BA23 shelves look like this (except some missing parts): http://www.plccenter.co.uk/en-GB/Buy/DEC/702076101 Kind Regards, Pontus. From anders at abc80.net Mon Nov 21 08:54:03 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:54:03 +0000 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161121145403.Horde.i66bOvtQL9CNrvRW9_zG-g3@blue.abc80.net> > > On 11/18/16 12:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >> This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. >> >> Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. >> I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? >> > yes, I think so > And I have documentation and software to the Luxor ABC1600 as well. Temporary link: http://blue.abc80.net/archive/luxor/ABC1600/ Most of it is in Swedish though. /Anders From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 21 11:22:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 09:22:58 -0800 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: <20161121145403.Horde.i66bOvtQL9CNrvRW9_zG-g3@blue.abc80.net> References: <20161121145403.Horde.i66bOvtQL9CNrvRW9_zG-g3@blue.abc80.net> Message-ID: <68db5b36-0c83-1b80-e29e-335188b309eb@bitsavers.org> has the firmware been dumped from this? On 11/21/16 6:54 AM, Anders Sandahl wrote: > >> >> On 11/18/16 12:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>> This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. >>> >>> Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. >>> I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? >>> >> yes, I think so >> > > And I have documentation and software to the Luxor ABC1600 as well. > > Temporary link: http://blue.abc80.net/archive/luxor/ABC1600/ > > Most of it is in Swedish though. > > /Anders From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 12:25:29 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:25:29 +0100 Subject: A Multibus board just sold for over $2000 In-Reply-To: References: <47ba99bf-6447-39f6-4a0c-c1f8c6e6d35c@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: 2016-11-21 5:15 GMT+01:00 George Rachor : > Time to look at my Inventory (grin). Never had any 432 stuff. > > George Rachor > > Sent from my iPhone > george at rachors.com > > > On Nov 20, 2016, at 7:12 PM, Glen Slick wrote: > > > >> On Nov 8, 2016 6:43 PM, "Al Kossow" wrote: > >> > >> well, not just ANY Multibus board > >> > >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262697366358 > > > > As a follow on two bare 432/100 just sold for $1700 > > > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262714109154 > I have one board like this but is marked 432/05 instead of 432/100. But it appears to be very similar. I am little bit curious why it has a different name. http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/others/intel-iapx432 /Mattis From chd at chdickman.com Mon Nov 21 12:28:26 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 13:28:26 -0500 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 20, 2016 at 7:29 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 11/20/2016 05:30 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: >> >> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 6:15 PM, Jon Elson wrote: >> >>> OH, yeah! Besides the limited instruction set, short registers only half >>> populated, etc., did you know that the 360/20 did not have an adder? >> >> This made me curious about how primitive it was, but the FE docs on >> bitsavers show a 16bit ALU that can do ADD, AND, OR and XOR and maybe >> some logic to help with BCD math. >> > OK, in this manual : > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/Z26-5908_360-20_FE_Manual_Of_Instruction_Aug65.pdf > > They describe the functions available in microcode. They are REALLY > limited! > See Page 1-23, Description, item 4. They have data transfer and increment > and decrement. > Period! I don't see ANYTHING that relates to ALU functions! Maybe I missed > it, it seems really hard to believe. > > and then page 1-27 describing what the increment and decrement commands do. > Notably, they note that the registers contain values from 0-15, ie. a 4-bit > field. > > Maybe I missed the whole point of what they are describing here, but this > seems to be somewhat consistent with what you can pack into a 16-bit > microinstruction, namely, not a lot. > > Take a look in this manual and see if you get a different impression. > > Jon I was looking here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/Z33-1021-0_2020_Processing_Unit_FETOM_May68.pdf (pdf) pages 45, 46 describe the ALU And here: http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/SY33-1024-0_2020_FEMDM_Vol_1_Apr69.pdf (pdf) pages 15 and 38 Data flows and ALU schematic From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 13:37:07 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 11:37:07 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: Hi all -- I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started working on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) to complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... Thanks! Josh From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 14:13:55 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:13:55 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Hi all -- > > I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started working > on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a > lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). > > My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm > looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) to > complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... > > Thanks! > Josh > Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02 disk or certain versions of RT-11? I have been experiencing difficulties, I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system. Bill From jsw at ieee.org Mon Nov 21 15:58:04 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 15:58:04 -0600 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5585454E-1205-4409-9082-FA846502BE90@ieee.org> > On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > >> Hi all -- >> >> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started working >> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a >> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). >> >> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm >> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) to >> complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... >> >> Thanks! >> Josh >> > > Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02 > disk or certain versions of RT-11? I have been experiencing difficulties, > I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system. > Bill RT11 will run w/o an LTC. TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the other RT11 OS variants. However a program could overwrite the vector area and cause an ungraceful shutdown. Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A are set correctly for this configuration. Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well. Jerry jsw at ieee.org From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:17:29 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:17:29 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > I was looking here: > > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/ > fe/2020/Z33-1021-0_2020_Processing_Unit_FETOM_May68.pdf > > (pdf) pages 45, 46 describe the ALU > > I note that the cover page says: "(Machines with serial no. 50,000 and above)." Perhaps the ALU is only present on late model machines? -- Charles From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 21 16:37:29 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:37:29 -0800 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <8fbad61f-9863-cb63-c315-4df6feaa10a7@jwsss.com> On 11/21/2016 2:17 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > Perhaps the ALU is only present on late model machines? > > -- Charles If it were a GE645 strapped for running Multics, very possibly, and undocumented. The builtin special purpose abacus was used on some early models. From cisin at xenosoft.com Mon Nov 21 16:38:31 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 14:38:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/ >> fe/2020/Z33-1021-0_2020_Processing_Unit_FETOM_May68.pdf >> (pdf) pages 45, 46 describe the ALU On Mon, 21 Nov 2016, Charles Anthony wrote: > I note that the cover page says: "(Machines with serial no. 50,000 and > above)." > Perhaps the ALU is only present on late model machines? A nice ROUND number for the model change. Had they sold 49,999 machines before that model change? Or was this a machine where the first one sold already had a 5 digit serial number? From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 16:44:24 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 17:44:24 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <5585454E-1205-4409-9082-FA846502BE90@ieee.org> References: <5585454E-1205-4409-9082-FA846502BE90@ieee.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > > > On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > >> Hi all -- > >> > >> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started > working > >> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a > >> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). > >> > >> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm > >> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) > to > >> complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... > >> > >> Thanks! > >> Josh > >> > > > > Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02 > > disk or certain versions of RT-11? I have been experiencing > difficulties, > > I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system. > > Bill > > > RT11 will run w/o an LTC. > > TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the > other RT11 OS variants. However a program could overwrite the vector area > and cause an ungraceful shutdown. Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A > are set > correctly for this configuration. > > Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well. > > Jerry > jsw at ieee.org > > > > Not exactly what TTBOMR is but I can say that given zero luck booting RT-11 from an RL02 on my 11/40 my next move is to emulate a TU58 drive on a 2nd serial card and run XXDP. I can run BASIC with no problem, but it seems like my known working (elsewhere) M7762 RT11 controller card does not wake up when called by the bootstrap 9312 ROM, etc. b From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 17:39:09 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:39:09 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've put my work in progress on reverse-engineering the original WD1000 firmware on github: https://github.com/brouhaha/wd100x I use my own assembler syntax output by my previously mentioned s8x30x disassembler, so at the present there is no assembler for it. I expect to have an assembler in the not-too-distant future. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 21 18:04:42 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:04:42 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: <20161122000442.AEC8118C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started > working on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've > learned a lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly > now). A KM11 might help, if you have one: there are a couple of sources for new ones (I got mine from Guy), it will allow you to single-step the microcode, etc, etc. > My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but > I'm looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit > register) to complete the set. You don't need the SLR to run Unix V6 (in fact, IIRC, it doesn't use it). For the clock, you don't absolutely have to have a KW11-L, you can substitute a KW11-P - but V6 _has_ to have one or the other, or it panic()'s - some things in the kernel have to have a working clock. You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits MUL, DIV etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is useless; the V6 Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11 floating point. Noel From jsw at ieee.org Mon Nov 21 18:28:56 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 18:28:56 -0600 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: <5585454E-1205-4409-9082-FA846502BE90@ieee.org> Message-ID: > On Nov 21, 2016, at 4:44 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >> >>> On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >>> >>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all -- >>>> >>>> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started >> working >>>> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a >>>> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). >>>> >>>> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm >>>> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) >> to >>>> complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> Josh >>>> >>> >>> Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02 >>> disk or certain versions of RT-11? I have been experiencing >> difficulties, >>> I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system. >>> Bill >> >> >> RT11 will run w/o an LTC. >> >> TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the >> other RT11 OS variants. However a program could overwrite the vector area >> and cause an ungraceful shutdown. Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A >> are set >> correctly for this configuration. >> >> Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well. >> >> Jerry >> jsw at ieee.org >> >> >> >> > Not exactly what TTBOMR is but I can say that given zero luck booting RT-11 > from an RL02 on my 11/40 my next move is to emulate a TU58 drive on a 2nd > serial card and run XXDP. I can run BASIC with no problem, but it seems > like my known working (elsewhere) M7762 RT11 controller card does not wake > up when called by the bootstrap 9312 ROM, etc. > > b To the best of my recollection?.(sorry). I didn't recall and don?t see stack limit as a requirement for RT-11 in any release notes I quickly scanned this afternoon. The LSI-11 doesn?t implement any stack overflow detection and works fine under RT-11. If BASIC runs, interrupts are working ok. That would support a TU58 as well. If neither RL11 Controller and/or RL02 drive show activity when you try to boot from disk there are some other things to investigate. E.g. Toggle the RL02 Bootstrap if you can, Check NPR (DMA) Grant jumper wiring on the Unibus Backplane. If you haven?t already tried these, these are easy enough to walk through. Jerry From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 18:30:29 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 16:30:29 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <20161122000442.AEC8118C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161122000442.AEC8118C083@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:04 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started > > working on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- > I've > > learned a lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it > properly > > now). > > A KM11 might help, if you have one: there are a couple of sources for new > ones > (I got mine from Guy), it will allow you to single-step the microcode, etc, > etc. > I do have a set (got it from Guy years ago, for the express purpose of debugging the 11/40) and I successfully used it to debug my 11/05. The 11/40 is mostly working; I have a bootstrap terminator in it and it runs the diag/console PROM without problems and stuff I toggle in seems to work, but I've been unable to boot anything (like XXDP, for example). There is some random behavior and there are some oddities about it-- Slot 9 of the CPU backplane is supposed to be an SPC slot but it doesn't seem to work, and years ago I found a missing wire in the backplane. So things are in a very random state and I need to spend some time sorting things out. > > > My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but > > I'm looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit > > register) to complete the set. > > You don't need the SLR to run Unix V6 (in fact, IIRC, it doesn't use it). > For > the clock, you don't absolutely have to have a KW11-L, you can substitute a > KW11-P - but V6 _has_ to have one or the other, or it panic()'s - some > things > in the kernel have to have a working clock. > Thanks, that's good to know -- I assumed I needed the KJ11-A because the KT11-D manual specifies (bottom of page 2-1): "When the KT11-D Memory Management Option is added to an existing PDP-11 system, the KJ11-A Stack Limit Register Option must also be added." So I assumed the MMU required this option be present... > > You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits MUL, > DIV > etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is useless; the > V6 > Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11 floating point. > Yeah, that might be harder to find, I'd forgotten about that requirement. I suppose I could run Ultrix-11 instead (I have that on my 11/34 at the moment) as it'll run sans floating point hardware, though it's a tight squeeze... - Josh > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 21 19:47:48 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 20:47:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: <20161122014748.BB44218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > The 11/40 is mostly working ... but I've been unable to boot anything > (like XXDP, for example). What are you trying to boot from? > Slot 9 of the CPU backplane is supposed to be an SPC slot but it > doesn't seem to work Missing/hard-wired BG/NPG jumpers on that slot, maybe? If not, plug one of Guy's UA11's into that slot, and see what's up! :-) > I assumed I needed the KJ11-A because the KT11-D manual specifies > (bottom of page 2-1): "When the KT11-D Memory Management Option is > added to an existing PDP-11 system, the KJ11-A Stack Limit Register > Option must also be added." So I assumed the MMU required this option > be present... Hmm, I didn't recall that; not sure I ever knew that! (Sorry!) I spent a short time looking at the KT11-D and KJ11-A prints, trying to see exactly what the KT11-D wanted, but I wasn't able (yet) to fully grok the interaction. >From the KJ11-A prints, you can probably work around not having a KJ11-A card by strapping the relevant outputs high or low (as the case might be), i.e. simulating a KJ11-A which is not reporting a problem. Like I said, V6 doesn't use the SLR for anything, so it's it's not actually working (i.e. reporting stack transgressions), no biggie. If you're determined, I did scan in a KJ11's PCB, so it would probably be possible to produce 'after-marked' ones - it's not a very complicated card. >> You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits >> MUL, DIV etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is >> useless; the V6 Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11 >> floating point. > Yeah, that might be harder to find, I'd forgotten about that > requirement. I suppose I could run Ultrix-11 instead (I have that on my > 11/34 at the moment) as it'll run sans floating point hardware, We seem to be having a communication failure. You don't need floating point to run V6 or V7 on an 11/40. In addition, the hardware floating point hardware on the 11/40 (the FIS) is a variety that Unix doesn't support anyway (in the sense of, the C compiler doesn't generate FIS instructions). It's the Exteded Instruction Set (EIS) card (which supports MUL, DIV, ASHC, etc) which is necessary. No way UNIX (of any flavour) will run without those instuctions (and thus, that card). If you don't have an M7238, start looking.... BTW, what is your mass storage device? RL's? If so, vanilla V6 doesn't support RL's, but I do have a V6 RL driver, I can either build you a system that will run on an RL, or (if you bring up V6 under an emulator, so you can build systems, etc) provide it so you can add it. You'll also need an RL bootstrap (again, those are available, but not in vanilla V6). Also, how are you getting the bits onto the mass storage? V6 can only be 'cold installed' onto a blank machine from a TM11 or TM02 tape drive. Failing that, you have to put a V6 filesystem onto a disk on some other machine. Do you have the ability to write packs on another machine/OS, and the ability to get a Unix file system onto that system? Failing that, I'm in the process of getting VTServer working to transfer V6 over a serial line to a blank machine (my situation) - I got distracted before I got 100% finished, but I have it all scoped out, and can get it done in a couple of hours from where I am now. Noel From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 21 20:27:58 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 20:27:58 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5833AD2E.3090301@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2016 12:28 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > I was looking here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/Z33-1021-0_2020_Processing_Unit_FETOM_May68.pdf > (pdf) pages 45, 46 describe the ALU And here: > http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/fe/2020/SY33-1024-0_2020_FEMDM_Vol_1_Apr69.pdf > (pdf) pages 15 and 38 Data flows and ALU schematic Yes, indeed, it seems to show a quite different architecture than what I got from the part I referenced. I had better stop as I am no expert on a 360/20, and the text SEEMED to contradict the schematics. Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Mon Nov 21 20:29:42 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 20:29:42 -0600 Subject: Interested in UNIVAC 9000 Series (and IBM 360) In-Reply-To: References: <20d07175-4d49-77c4-8d5b-9694aeb4afdc@sydex.com> <582F8BAA.9090207@pico-systems.com> <58323FE0.7040509@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <5833AD96.9030508@pico-systems.com> On 11/21/2016 04:17 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> I was looking here: >> >> http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/360/ >> fe/2020/Z33-1021-0_2020_Processing_Unit_FETOM_May68.pdf >> >> (pdf) pages 45, 46 describe the ALU >> >> > I note that the cover page says: "(Machines with serial no. 50,000 and > above)." > > Perhaps the ALU is only present on late model machines? > That would be a HUGE difference between different serial numbers, so I'd rather doubt it. Jon From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:19:38 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:19:38 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <20161122014748.BB44218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161122014748.BB44218C07E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <0afb5f31-cbe2-c729-d96a-520012e9c8b5@gmail.com> On 11/21/16 5:47 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch > > > The 11/40 is mostly working ... but I've been unable to boot anything > > (like XXDP, for example). > > What are you trying to boot from? I've tried an emulated TU58 and (most recently) a UNIBUS SCSI controller that I'm fortunate enough to have. > > > Slot 9 of the CPU backplane is supposed to be an SPC slot but it > > doesn't seem to work > > Missing/hard-wired BG/NPG jumpers on that slot, maybe? The NPG jumper on slot 9 is not present, and it has no effect on the NPG chain if i jumper it or not (the bus seems happy otherwise...) There appears to be no continuity between CA1/CB1 of slot 9 and CA1/CB1 of the SPC/MUD slots in the rest of the system. It's very puzzling. I need to sit down with the wire list (and copious Excedrin) and probe things out. > > If not, plug one of Guy's UA11's into that slot, and see what's up! :-) > > > > I assumed I needed the KJ11-A because the KT11-D manual specifies > > (bottom of page 2-1): "When the KT11-D Memory Management Option is > > added to an existing PDP-11 system, the KJ11-A Stack Limit Register > > Option must also be added." So I assumed the MMU required this option > > be present... > > Hmm, I didn't recall that; not sure I ever knew that! (Sorry!) > > I spent a short time looking at the KT11-D and KJ11-A prints, trying to see > exactly what the KT11-D wanted, but I wasn't able (yet) to fully grok the > interaction. > > >From the KJ11-A prints, you can probably work around not having a KJ11-A card > by strapping the relevant outputs high or low (as the case might be), i.e. > simulating a KJ11-A which is not reporting a problem. Like I said, V6 doesn't > use the SLR for anything, so it's it's not actually working (i.e. reporting > stack transgressions), no biggie. > > If you're determined, I did scan in a KJ11's PCB, so it would probably be > possible to produce 'after-marked' ones - it's not a very complicated card. Thanks for looking into it. I'm not desperate for a KJ11 yet, but it's good to have resources should one need to be built... > > > >> You will also need the KE11-E (M7238), as the Unix C compiler emits > >> MUL, DIV etc, and even the bootstrap uses them. The KE11-F (M7239) is > >> useless; the V6 Unix C compiler doesn't generate that type of PDP-11 > >> floating point. > > > Yeah, that might be harder to find, I'd forgotten about that > > requirement. I suppose I could run Ultrix-11 instead (I have that on my > > 11/34 at the moment) as it'll run sans floating point hardware, > > We seem to be having a communication failure. You don't need floating point > to run V6 or V7 on an 11/40. In addition, the hardware floating point > hardware on the 11/40 (the FIS) is a variety that Unix doesn't support anyway > (in the sense of, the C compiler doesn't generate FIS instructions). > > It's the Exteded Instruction Set (EIS) card (which supports MUL, DIV, ASHC, > etc) which is necessary. No way UNIX (of any flavour) will run without those > instuctions (and thus, that card). If you don't have an M7238, start > looking.... Sorry, sorry -- long day and it's been awhile since I looked at the 11/40 in depth (just dusted it off last night). I thought I had picked up an EIS years ago shortly after I picked up the machine but either my memory is faulty or it's disappeared somewhere (the former is more likely at this point, I actually do have things somewhat organized here). So that adds another level of fun. Maybe at this point I should be happy to get RT-11 working :). > > > BTW, what is your mass storage device? RL's? If so, vanilla V6 doesn't support > RL's, but I do have a V6 RL driver, I can either build you a system that will > run on an RL, or (if you bring up V6 under an emulator, so you can build > systems, etc) provide it so you can add it. You'll also need an RL bootstrap > (again, those are available, but not in vanilla V6). > > Also, how are you getting the bits onto the mass storage? V6 can only be > 'cold installed' onto a blank machine from a TM11 or TM02 tape drive. Failing > that, you have to put a V6 filesystem onto a disk on some other machine. Do > you have the ability to write packs on another machine/OS, and the ability to > get a Unix file system onto that system? Failing that, I'm in the process of > getting VTServer working to transfer V6 over a serial line to a blank machine > (my situation) - I got distracted before I got 100% finished, but I have it > all scoped out, and can get it done in a couple of hours from where I am now. I have an RK11 and an RK05 (with the option of a 2nd RK05 if I ever get some mounting rails for it.) I know the RK05s are tight storage-wise. I also have an RL02 but I need to repair an RL11 first. (And there's always the SCSI controller, should I get up the nerve to backport an MSCP driver...) I should be able to wrangle bits onto media either using what I have, or by using stuff at the LCM, but the VTServer option sounds nice too. The RL bootstrap and driver would be very useful to have, thanks! Thanks again, Josh > > Noel > From ian.finder at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 21:50:22 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:50:22 -0800 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Someone go rescue this: http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html Or palletize it and send it to me. -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Nov 21 21:59:57 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 19:59:57 -0800 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Yes, someone please rescue this. They?re nice minis. I would but I?m still in the process of getting a fully configured IBM 4331 (mainframe) moved here so I don?t have the time/space to deal with it at the moment. TTFN - Guy > On Nov 21, 2016, at 7:50 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > Someone go rescue this: > http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html > > Or palletize it and send it to me. > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com From steve.maresca at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:18:28 2016 From: steve.maresca at gmail.com (Steven Maresca) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:18:28 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > Someone go rescue this: > http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html > > Or palletize it and send it to me. > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > -- > Ian Finder > (206) 395-MIPS > ian.finder at gmail.com > I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. Regards, Steve From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Nov 21 22:29:57 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 22:29:57 -0600 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: The vintage computing world is in your debt, Steven.. ;-) On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Steven Maresca wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > Someone go rescue this: > > http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html > > > > Or palletize it and send it to me. > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. > > Regards, > Steve > From rlloken at telus.net Mon Nov 21 23:35:30 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 22:35:30 -0700 (MST) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: 8ayncj8s924sX8ayocsCeb References: 8ayncj8s924sX8ayocsCeb Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Nov 2016, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > There's a Rogue for the Alpha Micro. I don't have source for it either, > but it runs very well. What is an Alpha Micro? -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 22 00:11:44 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 01:11:44 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. Message-ID: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> what is it? looks too new for me,.... do not remember this one.... Ed# In a message dated 11/21/2016 9:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, drlegendre at gmail.com writes: The vintage computing world is in your debt, Steven.. ;-) On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Steven Maresca wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > > > Someone go rescue this: > > http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html > > > > Or palletize it and send it to me. > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Ian Finder > > (206) 395-MIPS > > ian.finder at gmail.com > > > I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. > > Regards, > Steve > From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 21 17:56:24 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 18:56:24 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: <5585454E-1205-4409-9082-FA846502BE90@ieee.org> Message-ID: <688d2292-4f2d-ac7c-a016-02539ece11bd@verizon.net> On 11/21/2016 05:44 PM, william degnan wrote: > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote: > >>> On Nov 21, 2016, at 2:13 PM, william degnan >> wrote: >>> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>>> Hi all -- >>>> >>>> I'm finally turning my attention back to my 11/40 (which I started >> working >>>> on 7 years ago and never quite got around to finishing -- I've learned a >>>> lot since then and I'm hoping to be able to debug it properly now). >>>> >>>> My ultimate goal is to run V6 or V7 UNIX on it -- I have the MMU but I'm >>>> looking for an M787 (line-time clock) and M7237 (stack limit register) >> to >>>> complete the set. I have other DEC stuff for trade, drop me a line... >>>> >>>> Thanks! >>>> Josh >>>> >>> Just curious, are you aware whether these two are required to boot a RL02 >>> disk or certain versions of RT-11? I have been experiencing >> difficulties, >>> I only have the m737 iinstalled in my system. >>> Bill >> >> RT11 will run w/o an LTC. >> >> TTBOMR the stack limit register is not need for Single Job and the >> other RT11 OS variants. However a program could overwrite the vector area >> and cause an ungraceful shutdown. Make sure the jumpers on the KD11-A >> are set >> correctly for this configuration. >> >> Using an RL02 to boot RT11 should be okay as well. >> >> Jerry >> jsw at ieee.org >> >> >> >> > Not exactly what TTBOMR is but I can say that given zero luck booting RT-11 > from an RL02 on my 11/40 my next move is to emulate a TU58 drive on a 2nd > serial card and run XXDP. I can run BASIC with no problem, but it seems > like my known working (elsewhere) M7762 RT11 controller card does not wake > up when called by the bootstrap 9312 ROM, etc. > > b > Rt-11 must be configured for the controller that boots it at the CSR and vector its using (try the standard addresses/Vector). RT has few needs and will run on a 16K machine with minimal hardware (console and boot device). I have a 11/2 with 28KW and DLV11J that boots RT-11FB from TU58 (very slowly but it does!). That's a tiny 4 slot Qbus machine (BA11VA) and is very minimal. Also make sure your trying to boot RT11SJ initially as that has the lowest needs. Allison From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 22 01:31:19 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Mon, 21 Nov 2016 23:31:19 -0800 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There were originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later. I always knew them by their code names ? different varieties of peaches?so named because they were developed by IBM?s GSD division which was headquartered in Atlanta, GA (even though all of the development was done in Boca Raton, FL). TTFN - Guy > On Nov 21, 2016, at 10:11 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > what is it? looks too new for me,.... do not remember this one.... > Ed# > > > In a message dated 11/21/2016 9:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > drlegendre at gmail.com writes: > > The vintage computing world is in your debt, Steven.. ;-) > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Steven Maresca > wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder > wrote: >> >>> Someone go rescue this: >>> http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html >>> >>> Or palletize it and send it to me. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >>> >> I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. >> >> Regards, >> Steve >> > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 22 01:40:56 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 02:40:56 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. Message-ID: <1a2abc.77592880.45655088@aol.com> Ah! Ok! heard of it but never seen an installation. Great find! I am a little foggy on it but I somehow remember it being able to control external devices for process use vs. the usual IBM stuff that was just 'data processing' Ed# In a message dated 11/22/2016 12:31:26 A.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, ggs at shiresoft.com writes: The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There were originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later. I always knew them by their code names ? different varieties of peaches?so named because they were developed by IBM?s GSD division which was headquartered in Atlanta, GA (even though all of the development was done in Boca Raton, FL). TTFN - Guy > On Nov 21, 2016, at 10:11 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > what is it? looks too new for me,.... do not remember this one.... > Ed# > > > In a message dated 11/21/2016 9:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > drlegendre at gmail.com writes: > > The vintage computing world is in your debt, Steven.. ;-) > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Steven Maresca > wrote: > >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder > wrote: >> >>> Someone go rescue this: >>> http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html >>> >>> Or palletize it and send it to me. >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Ian Finder >>> (206) 395-MIPS >>> ian.finder at gmail.com >>> >> I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. >> >> Regards, >> Steve >> > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 05:33:42 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:33:42 -0000 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: <039f01d244b4$48858e40$d990aac0$@gmail.com> When I worked on the UK Universities X.25 networking software we used Series/1s for interfacing the x.25 to VM/370 as IBM had X.25 and Channel hardware for the s/1. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Guy > Sotomayor Jr > Sent: 22 November 2016 07:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. > > The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There were > originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later. I always knew > them by their code names ? different varieties of peaches?so named > because they were developed by IBM?s GSD division which was > headquartered in Atlanta, GA (even though all of the development was done > in Boca Raton, FL). > > TTFN - Guy > > > On Nov 21, 2016, at 10:11 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > > > what is it? looks too new for me,.... do not remember this one.... > > Ed# > > > > > > In a message dated 11/21/2016 9:30:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > > drlegendre at gmail.com writes: > > > > The vintage computing world is in your debt, Steven.. ;-) > > > > On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:18 PM, Steven Maresca > > > > wrote: > > > >> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 10:50 PM, Ian Finder > > wrote: > >> > >>> Someone go rescue this: > >>> http://nwct.craigslist.org/zip/5886266424.html > >>> > >>> Or palletize it and send it to me. > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian Finder > >>> (206) 395-MIPS > >>> ian.finder at gmail.com > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Ian Finder > >>> (206) 395-MIPS > >>> ian.finder at gmail.com > >>> > >> I'm in CT close enough to make a rescue..I've reached out to the poster. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Steve > >> > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 22 07:21:01 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:21:01 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: <20161122132101.3C3E318C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > There appears to be no continuity between CA1/CB1 of slot 9 and CA1/CB1 > of the SPC/MUD slots in the rest of the system. Is that the only issue? If so, that should be 'not too hard' to track down. It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but sent it directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector; when the -11/40 was done, there were no single-board DMA devices. > It's very puzzling. BTDT! :-) > I have an RK11 and an RK05 Ah, you're good then - Unix V6 will run fine with a single RK. (Ah, memories: my first experience as a sys-admin was on an 11/40 with a single RK...) The standard V6 distro include systems that will run on an RK. (The V7 distro does not, but it's possible to build RK-based systems. You'd need to bring it up on an emulator to do so.) > (with the option of a 2nd RK05 if I ever get some mounting rails for > it.) I know the RK05s are tight storage-wise. Well, you can't put all the source and documentation online with a single RK (or even two), but that shouldn't be an issue. If you were actually trying to do _real work_ on the system, a single RK might be something of a PITA. > I also have an RL02 but I need to repair an RL11 first. Put that online, and you'll have plenty of room. Also, with two controllers, you'll get higher performance (not that you care :-); you could put e.g. swapping on the RK, and most files on the RL. > I should be able to wrangle bits onto media either using what I have, > or by using stuff at the LCM, but the VTServer option sounds nice too. OK, I'll probably get back to work on it 'soon'. > The RL bootstrap and driver would be very useful to have, thanks! They're available on my "Bringing up V6 Unix on the Ersatz-11 PDP-11 Emulator" page, here: http://mercury.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/V6Unix.html#RL That page (and it's partner, "Improving V6 Unix") probably contains some other useful stuff, if you're serious about running V6. One off the top of my head: the C on the 'vanilla' V6 distro is fairly primitive. There are no longs or unsigneds, casts don't work, etc, etc. There is a later version (which I think might be the so-called 'phototypsetter C'), available from the 'Shoppa disks', you might want to get that. Noel From spectre at floodgap.com Tue Nov 22 08:28:26 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 06:28:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: from Richard Loken at "Nov 21, 16 10:35:30 pm" Message-ID: <201611221428.uAMESQFD7536760@floodgap.com> > > There's a Rogue for the Alpha Micro. I don't have source for it either, > > but it runs very well. > > What is an Alpha Micro? http://ampm.floodgap.com/ It's hosted on one! -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Everyone is different. No two people are not on fire. -- Strong Bad #84 ---- From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 22 09:48:18 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 10:48:18 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: <20161122154818.40F9218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but sent > it directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector Sho'nuff; the 11/40 prints indicate (pg. 86) that "BUS NPG" goes directly from C07P2 ("Source" - you can see the generation on print K4-5, pg. 62, lower right side), to A09U1 (NPG on the UNIBUS Out connector), do not pass through SPC slot 9, do not collect a grant. I dunno about any other oddities you're seeing, but I think this one is solved. :-) Noel From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Tue Nov 22 10:14:06 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:14:06 +0100 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 20.11.2016 01:30, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/19/16 4:25 PM, dwight wrote: > It is actually a controller for a TRS-80 but it was a WD1000 in disguise. > > what format board (5" or 8")? 8X300 or 305? > > I dumped and took pictures of a couple different styles which are up on > bitsavers under westernDigital Interesting.... The MFM disk controller for later version Lilith's is clearly based on a WD1001-05. But uses a 8x305 iso 8x300. Pic of PCB and dump of proms are on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001/ The disk used is an imi-5018 15MB. Jos From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Nov 22 10:22:03 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:22:03 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: > The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There were > originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later. I always knew > them by their code names ? different varieties of peaches?so named because > they were developed by IBM?s GSD division which was headquartered in > Atlanta, GA (even though all of the development was done in Boca Raton, FL). We'd get it for the VCFed museum, but we already have one and time/bandwidth are spread thin right now. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 10:42:49 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 08:42:49 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <20161122154818.40F9218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161122154818.40F9218C087@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 7:48 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > It's possible that they didn't bother wiring NPG to that slot, but > sent > > it directly to the NPG pin on the 'UNIBUS out' connector > > Sho'nuff; the 11/40 prints indicate (pg. 86) that "BUS NPG" goes directly > from > C07P2 ("Source" - you can see the generation on print K4-5, pg. 62, lower > right side), to A09U1 (NPG on the UNIBUS Out connector), do not pass > through > SPC slot 9, do not collect a grant. > > I dunno about any other oddities you're seeing, but I think this one is > solved. :-) > > Noel > Interesting. I'll have to look tonight and see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the system with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything works. Which seems strange to me. I went through and cleaned the edge connectors on all of the boards, grants, and UNIBUS jumpers, and I went through the CPU set to make sure all jumpers (etc.) are in the right place for running without an MMU, EIS, LTC, Stack Limit, etc. I now have the system booting XXDP (from a SCSI2SD via the SCSI controller) and things are mostly sane. Occasionally the diagnostics start trapping to 10 (reserved instruction trap) so something's amiss but I didn't have time last night to dig into things. I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the KW11-L requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be removed from slot 3. My machine is a bit of a mongrel -- the CPU set that it came with was not original to the machine, so nothing matches up... but things seem to be rectified now. Just need to solve the slot 9 mystery and work on getting diagnostics to pass more reliably. Thanks, Josh From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 11:11:21 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:11:21 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There were > originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later... ISTR having to mod our 3780 COMBOARD code to talk to a Series/1 in about 1992 or so because someone in WI bought our VAXBI COMBOARD to send EDI purchase reqs to a vendor network run by IBM and the device on the other end of our customer's modem was a Series/1 that didn't quite exactly implement 3780 like all the IBM products before it. -ethan From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 22 11:27:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 12:27:25 -0500 (EST) Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com > see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the system > with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything works. Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 (see below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory that, unlike the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous grant line.) Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid knuckle-mashing trying to put a G727 down there. Anyway, the wire list in the drawings show all four lines (although they are listed in two places, under "BGx" and "BUS BGx"). E.g. BG4 is shown on pg. 79 as going from D07E2 (Source - K4-6, pg. 63, top right) to D09S2 (which is the correct BG4 'in' pin for SPC), and as BUS BG4 on pg. 84 as going from D09T2 (SPC BG4 'out' pin) to B09E2 (correct BG4 UNIBUS 'out' pin). > I now have the system booting XXDP Yahh!! > I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the > KW11-L requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be > removed from slot 3. Right, BG6 is wired through that KW11-L slot because the clock needs interrupts - the wire list shows that on pg. 79, where the BG6 entry is longer than the other BGn entries, because of that. If I'm reading the notations correctly, it shows the jumper installed by default - I guess it was removed by hand on systems sold with a KW11-L? There must also be some way to indicate that the jumper should be wired on top at both ends (so the F03V2 to D09M2 wire wouldn't have to be removed to pull the F03R2 to F03V2 jumper) - although maybe they just did _all_ multi-pin runs as alternating low on both ends, high on both ends, repeat to make removal/replacement easier. Speaking of notation, dunno if you knew this (I didn't), but the wire list for the 11/40 includes etch also; you can tell etch entries from an 'H' in the "Q" column and 'P' in the "Remark" column. Don't confuse them with the 'H' in the "A/P" column, which also also has some 'L' entries; not sure what that is about, unless it tells whether the signal is asserted high or low. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 12:09:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 13:09:21 -0500 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > wrote: > > The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There > were > > originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later... > > ISTR having to mod our 3780 COMBOARD code to talk to a Series/1 in > about 1992 or so because someone in WI bought our VAXBI COMBOARD to > send EDI purchase reqs to a vendor network run by IBM and the device > on the other end of our customer's modem was a Series/1 that didn't > quite exactly implement 3780 like all the IBM products before it. > > -ethan > Whomever gets this, I donated my Series/1 to the VCFed Museum in Wall NJ, and if you want to check it out for comparison purposes, I would be happy to help set up an appointment to inspect it. Also, I have some notes about the system I had, which is very similar to the Series/1 on craigslist. I was able to IPL it, but did not do much else. http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=12 http://www.vintagecomputer.net/ibm/Series1/ http://www.vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=206 Bill From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 22 13:31:36 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:31:36 -0800 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> Message-ID: <54038d7f-1c0f-56ef-7f86-e2ff46e25356@jwsss.com> On 11/22/2016 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr > >wrote: >> > >The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. There > >were >> > >originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later... Ultimate's Pick implementation for the IBM mainframe had a channel attached Series One with serial channels available for communications to IBM 3151 ASCII terminals. if you ran the usual pile that IBM had, there was a program that ran in the Series one that put up a screen similar to a 3270 on each 3151 terminal, and acted much like a 3270 terminal, but with Ascii terminals and using cursor control and the like to do the screens. A standalone controller, the 7171 also did that as well. On the 9121 mainframes there was a 68000 equipped board and subsystem called the Hyfas that did the same directly from boards in the 9121 chassis. IBM disclosed Ultimate on a method to bypass the 3270 software and do direct I/O for byte I/O to use the terminals on all three of these subsystems like direct attached Ascii terminals. Also there was a Pick Series one implementation by Pick Blue in Seattle. I also know that some number of Sears Roebuck stores had Series One systems for their POS control in each store up to the end of life of pretty much a real Sears chain, and the product. There was a large flood of systems at the time that the IBM POS systems were converted to some other backend system (I didn't track what the replacement configuration was). I've not set foot in a Sears store in 30 years due to them screwing me in 1976, so don't know much about any of their gear since, but I am pretty sure on the Series One from some people who acquired systems at that time, in the early 90s. From arcarlini at iee.org Tue Nov 22 13:42:06 2016 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 19:42:06 +0000 Subject: Rogue: Mctesq was here In-Reply-To: References: 8GB0cpqq5mNym8GB1cb3on Message-ID: <58349F8E.1010605@iee.org> On 20/11/16 05:39, Richard Loken wrote: > On Sun, 20 Nov 2016, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> There is a rogue that runs on VAX/VMS as I definitely played it a >> little back in the day. >> >> I don't think I had the sources, just a .EXE, so that may not work so >> well for Alpha. > > Now THAT is interesting! I wonder where it went to? > I do have some backup TK50 cartridges that *may* cover that era. First I need to dig out a system with a TK50/TK70 drive on it and see if it still works. Then I'll need to go through the cartridges I do have and archive them. Whether the old games made it out of university with me or not is another matter. Ping me again in a month or so to see how far I've got ! Antonio arcarlini at iee.org From fjkraan at xs4all.nl Tue Nov 22 13:58:13 2016 From: fjkraan at xs4all.nl (Fred Jan Kraan) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:58:13 +0100 Subject: Fwd: NCD16 images. Was: NCD19 / Xncd19 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <317434c8-7359-245e-7469-1016b4fa1fc8@xs4all.nl> Hi Al & list, Sorry for the delay, but the files should be readable now. On 18-11-16 19:00, Al Kossow wrote: > Fred, could you make these files readable, please Apparently Filezilla in the new configuration needs more configuration. The URL again: http://fjkraan.home.xs4all.nl/comp/divcomp/NCD/ Greetings, Fred Jan From michael.newton at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 15:16:54 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 13:16:54 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much. I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just like the original board. I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power supplies. I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering. I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask. If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets). thanks M. On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: >> >> > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. >> >> From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. > > > Yes -12v, sorry > > >> > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones >> > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. >> >> Looking at: >> 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf >> from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be >> truncated. >> The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of >> course the power supply schematic is missing. >> (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on >> the hpmuseum pages.) >> >> > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - search > the page for "DraftMaster" > > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog > board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. > > > >> There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), >> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control >> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the >> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown >> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter >> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, >> or even a zener >> regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry between >> there and the actual -12 output of the supply. >> >> - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. >> - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the >> reg vs output. >> - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the >> problem. >> - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the >> area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. >> >> > > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 > > > > From anders at abc80.net Tue Nov 22 13:12:58 2016 From: anders at abc80.net (Anders Sandahl) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 19:12:58 +0000 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161122191258.Horde.U20ArZD4KjajBUeCifvV6A1@blue.abc80.net> Not that I'm aware of. I can do it, but I don't have daily access to the machine so it will take a couple of months. > > has the firmware been dumped from this? > > On 11/21/16 6:54 AM, Anders Sandahl wrote: >> >>> >>> On 11/18/16 12:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>> This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. >>>> >>>> Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. >>>> I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? >>>> >>> yes, I think so >>> >> >> And I have documentation and software to the Luxor ABC1600 as well. >> >> Temporary link: http://blue.abc80.net/archive/luxor/ABC1600/ >> >> Most of it is in Swedish though. >> >> /Anders > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 22 13:15:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 11:15:49 -0800 Subject: DNIX and ABCenix install media disk images. In-Reply-To: <20161122191258.Horde.U20ArZD4KjajBUeCifvV6A1@blue.abc80.net> References: <20161122191258.Horde.U20ArZD4KjajBUeCifvV6A1@blue.abc80.net> Message-ID: actually, it appears the machine is emulated in MAME On 11/22/16 11:12 AM, Anders Sandahl wrote: > Not that I'm aware of. I can do it, but I don't have daily access to the machine so it will take a couple of months. >> >> has the firmware been dumped from this? >> >> On 11/21/16 6:54 AM, Anders Sandahl wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> On 11/18/16 12:02 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: >>>>> This is great! Thanks Mattis, Jonas and Al. >>>>> >>>>> Somewhere I have an early DNIX system image from a development machine. >>>>> I don't know if that is interesting to put on bitsavers as well? >>>>> >>>> yes, I think so >>>> >>> >>> And I have documentation and software to the Luxor ABC1600 as well. >>> >>> Temporary link: http://blue.abc80.net/archive/luxor/ABC1600/ >>> >>> Most of it is in Swedish though. >>> >>> /Anders >> > From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 16:56:29 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 18:56:29 -0400 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: <54038d7f-1c0f-56ef-7f86-e2ff46e25356@jwsss.com> References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> <54038d7f-1c0f-56ef-7f86-e2ff46e25356@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <99ee08e4-140d-3c3b-c8ca-842afdc5e2f1@gmail.com> On 2016-11-22 3:31 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/22/2016 10:09 AM, william degnan wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 2:31 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr >> >wrote: >>> > >The IBM Series/1 was introduced in 1976 and withdrawn in 1988. >>> There >> >were >>> > >originally 2 models and another 2 models were added later... > Ultimate's Pick implementation for the IBM mainframe had a channel > attached Series One with serial channels available for communications > to IBM 3151 ASCII terminals. if you ran the usual pile that IBM had, > there was a program that ran in the Series one that put up a screen > similar to a 3270 on each 3151 terminal, and acted much like a 3270 > terminal, but with Ascii terminals and using cursor control and the > like to do the screens. > > A standalone controller, the 7171 also did that as well. > > On the 9121 mainframes there was a 68000 equipped board and subsystem > called the Hyfas that did the same directly from boards in the 9121 > chassis. > > IBM disclosed Ultimate on a method to bypass the 3270 software and do > direct I/O for byte I/O to use the terminals on all three of these > subsystems like direct attached Ascii terminals. > > Also there was a Pick Series one implementation by Pick Blue in Seattle. > > I also know that some number of Sears Roebuck stores had Series One > systems for their POS control in each store up to the end of life of > pretty much a real Sears chain, and the product. There was a large > flood of systems at the time that the IBM POS systems were converted > to some other backend system (I didn't track what the replacement > configuration was). > > I've not set foot in a Sears store in 30 years due to them screwing me > in 1976, so don't know much about any of their gear since, but I am > pretty sure on the Series One from some people who acquired systems at > that time, in the early 90s. I understand that the Sears stores in the US replaced their Series/1 machines with a 9371, Sears Canada replaced theirs with a small AIX system as did the late Eatons Dept store. State Farm Insurance agents used to have Series/1 machines in their offices, they too replaced them with 9271s. The machines in the Sears stores stores did not have the operator panel, nor did they have a diskette drive so if you wanted to run diagnostics on them you had to haul these items packaged as a CE tool to the site with you. The biggest problem with servicing Series/1 was they where so reliable that unless you where maintaining a lot of them you never got good at them. The channel adapter on the Series/1 had a rather large flaw, if you did not disable the interface before shutting down the Series/1 it would upset the channel it was attached to causing a flurry of channel checks that could bring the host system to its knees. When I worked in the IBM Toronto Lab we had two channel attached Series/1 machines with 72MD diskette units that we used to create diskettes from images sent to us and also to send diskette images. These Series/1s pretended to be a 3270 control unit so that the MVS host system knew how to talk to them. Paul. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 22 17:21:04 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 15:21:04 -0800 Subject: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US. In-Reply-To: <99ee08e4-140d-3c3b-c8ca-842afdc5e2f1@gmail.com> References: <1611b7.6df388a7.45653ba0@aol.com> <54038d7f-1c0f-56ef-7f86-e2ff46e25356@jwsss.com> <99ee08e4-140d-3c3b-c8ca-842afdc5e2f1@gmail.com> Message-ID: <2f413285-2a48-7431-e4b4-6cde55b53694@jwsss.com> On 11/22/2016 2:56 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > > The channel adapter on the Series/1 had a rather large flaw, if you > did not disable the interface before shutting down the Series/1 it > would upset the channel it was attached to causing a flurry of channel > checks that could bring the host system to its knees. When I worked > in the IBM Toronto Lab we had two channel attached Series/1 machines > with 72MD diskette units that we used to create diskettes from images > sent to us and also to send diskette images. These Series/1s > pretended to be a 3270 control unit so that the MVS host system knew > how to talk to them. the Ultimate system was the only Non IBM written supervisor / system that ran on mainframes at the time. The supervisor or in Pick terms, Monitor handled such things with code specific to Pick. I don't know that it would have caused the system to stop, but I'd doubt it, as we had a complete setup to test it with, and running with parts turned off after system boot would have been tested. All of the channels, 7171, Series 1, and Hyfas channels were all run in a different mode than most anywhere in IBM, though I understand the mode was supported w/o firmware mods on all systems. I'd have loved to have heard the L2 and L3 calls if anyone called with complaints though. Our support contract with IBM essentially made us L3 for everything we had, but we had access to all PMR's as well as PMR's filed against systems with our software. I say to all PMR's as the access has vastly narrowed, but we had access for supporting our own VM/SP, so we could search for problems and get APARs. All of our systems were hooked up via a channel switch to three systems, a 4381, 9121, and a 9370. All had some dedicated DASD, but unique items such as a couple of tape drives, the 7171, and the Series one were all on the switch to be moved to each system to see what happened. We also conned IBM into a CHIM as well as set of hardware and software to enable Microchannel machines to be either a channel, or to run channel attached hardware. Also, note that Mike Ross has a CHIM, which I am not sure he knows is a CHIM. http://www.corestore.org/360tester-1.jpg At least the box we had matched this. We were hoping that IBM would forget it when we started to get where our facility would shut down, as we were the only account left in Orange County with 370 or 360 channels, but the found it. Also had a custom instruction trace firmware for the 4381 for being able to trace some performances with deposits into lower memory. thanks Jim From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 18:00:45 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 16:00:45 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> On 11/22/16 9:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com > > > see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the system > > with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything works. > > Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 (see > below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software > you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory that, unlike > the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous grant line.) > Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid knuckle-mashing > trying to put a G727 down there. Yes, I'd expect them to be run through the slot (though I expected the NPG, too :)). And there does seem to be continuity between the BG pins on the CPU backplane and those on the DD11. If I remove the grant continuity card from slot 9, I can still boot XXDP. If I remove a grant continuity card from the DD11 (with NPG still intact), I can't -- it hangs as I'd expect with a hole in the grant chain. No one's done anything cute like hard-wiring the grants in and there's no evidence of any modifications. All expected voltages are present on the backplane pins in the right places. I put a little contact cleaner in the slot too, just in case. I still can't get an SLU to function in that slot, though the CSR addresses seem to respond and the console/diagnostic PROM chugs along happily when I power the machine up (though nothing appears on the serial line). Tonight I may try running the SLU on an extender board and verifying that all the proper voltages are actually making it to the board. The fact that the board appears to be responding but I'm getting nothing over the serial line makes me think that maybe the -15V isn't present for some reason... > > Anyway, the wire list in the drawings show all four lines (although they are > listed in two places, under "BGx" and "BUS BGx"). E.g. BG4 is shown on pg. 79 > as going from D07E2 (Source - K4-6, pg. 63, top right) to D09S2 (which is the > correct BG4 'in' pin for SPC), and as BUS BG4 on pg. 84 as going from D09T2 > (SPC BG4 'out' pin) to B09E2 (correct BG4 UNIBUS 'out' pin). > > > I now have the system booting XXDP > > Yahh!! > > > I did find out why there was that wire missing on the backplane; the > > KW11-L requires a wire (carrying one of the bus grant signals) be > > removed from slot 3. > > Right, BG6 is wired through that KW11-L slot because the clock needs > interrupts - the wire list shows that on pg. 79, where the BG6 entry is longer > than the other BGn entries, because of that. If I'm reading the notations > correctly, it shows the jumper installed by default - I guess it was removed > by hand on systems sold with a KW11-L? The KW11-L manual suggests that this is the case, the installation instructions specifically call out removing that wire. Apparently my 40's backplane had been reconfigured in such a manner at some point. > > There must also be some way to indicate that the jumper should be wired on > top at both ends (so the F03V2 to D09M2 wire wouldn't have to be removed to > pull the F03R2 to F03V2 jumper) - although maybe they just did _all_ > multi-pin runs as alternating low on both ends, high on both ends, repeat to > make removal/replacement easier. > > Speaking of notation, dunno if you knew this (I didn't), but the wire list > for the 11/40 includes etch also; you can tell etch entries from an 'H' in > the "Q" column and 'P' in the "Remark" column. Don't confuse them with the > 'H' in the "A/P" column, which also also has some 'L' entries; not sure what > that is about, unless it tells whether the signal is asserted high or low. That's useful information to have, thanks! - Josh > > Noel > From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 18:03:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:03:45 -0700 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:14 AM, jos wrote: > The MFM disk controller for later version Lilith's is clearly based on a > WD1001-05. > But uses a 8x305 iso 8x300. > All of the WD1001 controllers I've seen use 8X305. Some later WD1000 use 8X305 also. I've disassembled the firmware of one WD1001-05 so far, and it does not use any of the added features of the 8X305. I suspect WD and their licensees switched to the 8X305 due to price or availability, rather than due to the extra features. Pic of PCB and dump of proms are on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001/ > Thanks! The PROM contents match those of the WD1001-05 which Al dumped and put online: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/westernDigital/WD100x/WD1001-05/ Al and I also each dumped the controller PROMs from Fortune 32:16 WD1001-CLB disk controller, which were the same, and appear to be an older firmware version. http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/fortuneSystems/firmware/WD1001-CLB_Fortune/ I've made a fair bit of progress reverse-engineering the WD1001 firmware (newer, not -CLB), and I've just pushed it to the github repo, though it's not yet as thoroughly commented as the two WD1000 versions (and even those aren't 100% done). From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 18:40:56 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 16:40:56 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> Message-ID: <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> On 11/22/16 4:00 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > On 11/22/16 9:27 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> > From: Josh Dersch derschjo at gmail.com >> >> > see if the same is true for other bus grants -- I can run the >> system >> > with no grant continuity card at all in slot 9 and everything >> works. >> >> Well, the BG4-BG7 grants definitely _are_ run through the SPC slot 9 >> (see >> below) - at least, on a stock system. It's _possible_ that the software >> you're loading doesn't use interrupts. (I have this vague memory >> that, unlike >> the -11/34, the /40 doesn't complain if there's a non-continuous >> grant line.) >> Or perhaps someone wired them across on that slot, to avoid >> knuckle-mashing >> trying to put a G727 down there. > Yes, I'd expect them to be run through the slot (though I expected the > NPG, too :)). And there does seem to be continuity between the BG > pins on the CPU backplane and those on the DD11. > > If I remove the grant continuity card from slot 9, I can still boot > XXDP. If I remove a grant continuity card from the DD11 (with NPG > still intact), I can't -- it hangs as I'd expect with a hole in the > grant chain. > > No one's done anything cute like hard-wiring the grants in and there's > no evidence of any modifications. All expected voltages are present > on the backplane pins in the right places. I put a little contact > cleaner in the slot too, just in case. I still can't get an SLU to > function in that slot, though the CSR addresses seem to respond and > the console/diagnostic PROM chugs along happily when I power the > machine up (though nothing appears on the serial line). > > Tonight I may try running the SLU on an extender board and verifying > that all the proper voltages are actually making it to the board. The > fact that the board appears to be responding but I'm getting nothing > over the serial line makes me think that maybe the -15V isn't present > for some reason... Annnnd: mystery solved (?). I had borrowed the SLU I was using in the 11/40 from my 11/34. This was an M7856 (DL11-W). Thought I'd grab another SLU from my UNIBUS drawer and configure it up so I could put the 7856 back in the 11/34, but all I had left were the older, more annoying to configure M7800s (DL11-D). So I jumpered it up (max of 2400 baud with the crystal that's currently installed, blah) and installed it. Works fine in the DD11 backplane. Moved it to slot 9 of the CPU backplane. Still works. So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800? I guess I need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap... - Josh From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 22 19:13:06 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:13:06 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> Message-ID: <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> > On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800? I guess I need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap? > I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40?s I was working on. I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787 that things don?t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787. There is a way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787. I haven?t really investigated it in detail (and it?s been a long time since I messed around with the 11/40 at that level). TTFN - Guy From scanning.cc70 at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 19:37:47 2016 From: scanning.cc70 at gmail.com (steven canning) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 17:37:47 -0800 Subject: Looking for 8085a CPU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Adrian , I'm certain I have a couple 8085s you can have for the shipping . Let me go through my storage unit this week end and find them . I'm in San Diego , CA USA , there has to be some slick way to ship to the UK to avoid all the unpleasantness .... Do you have PayPal or .... ? We can figure something out . You do know the 8085 has a MINIMUM frequency of 500 KHz due to internal dynamic logic ? It gets real pissy if you go below that . CDP1802s you can clock down to 0 Hz . Let me know if this will work for you . Happy Turkey Day ! Best regards, Steven C KJ6STF On Mon, Nov 7, 2016 at 3:32 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi folks, > > Still working on this STC Executel and it looks like the CPU isn't too good > given how hot it gets within a minute or so. The display is the same > whether > there's a CPU physically present or not. I built this circuit to test it: > > http://saundby.com/electronics/8085/freerun.shtml > > Using a 4mhz crystal the address lines are all over the place - I'm using a > logic analyser rather than LEDs. > > Has anyone got a spare they'd like to sell me? I'm struggling to think of > something I've got that may have a socketed 8085... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 19:43:56 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:43:56 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > > > On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > > > > > So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's > still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of > the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800? I guess I > need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now > I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap? > > > > I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40?s I was working > on. I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787 > that things don?t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the > SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787. There is a > way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787. > I haven?t really investigated it in detail (and it?s been a long time since > I messed around with the 11/40 at that level). > > TTFN - Guy > > I have my 11/40 fired up right now too. I can load BASIC and I have a M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running. I have the CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C. I can operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue. If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let me know. I will be around tomorrow too during the day. I live near Phila, it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here. BIll From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 22 19:45:35 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 20:45:35 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > > > I have my 11/40 fired up right now too. I can load BASIC and I have a > M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running. I have the > CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C. I can > operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either > way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue. > > If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let > me know. I will be around tomorrow too during the day. I live near Phila, > it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here. > > BIll > ...slot 9 that is, system does not seem to notice. I have only a M737, no M787 installed but my CPU is not expecting a M787 From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Nov 22 21:41:16 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 19:41:16 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 22, 2016, at 5:43 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 8:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: > >> >>> On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >>> >>> >>> So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's >> still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of >> the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800? I guess I >> need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now >> I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap? >>> >> >> I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40?s I was working >> on. I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787 >> that things don?t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the >> SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787. There is a >> way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787. >> I haven?t really investigated it in detail (and it?s been a long time since >> I messed around with the 11/40 at that level). >> >> TTFN - Guy >> >> > I have my 11/40 fired up right now too. I can load BASIC and I have a > M9312 with a M7800 that returns serial signals/monitor running. I have the > CPU backplane, two core planes (empty), a DD11B and an DD11C. I can > operate without a grant card in slot, but I can't boot up using RL02 either > way, still trying to track down if I have a UNIBUS issue. > > If there is something I can measure for you, for comparison purposes, let > me know. I will be around tomorrow too during the day. I live near Phila, > it's 845PM Tuesday at the moment here. > Hmm. I just realized that folks are having trouble booting an 11/40 from an RL02. My 11/40 (which is a *big* configuration) has an RL11 in addition to the RK11D and in the past I?ve booted it from an RL02 with no problems. So I suspect it?s some sort of Unibus configuration issue. I haven?t fired up the system since I moved it a few years ago so it would likely take a bit to check things out. TTFN - Guy From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 01:49:44 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Nov 2016 23:49:44 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <603b73fb-028a-d4bb-66c4-871f8bc35805@gmail.com> On 11/22/16 5:13 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr wrote: >> On Nov 22, 2016, at 4:40 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: >> >> >> So... maybe I just completely missed the memo on this, and maybe there's still something wrong with my backplane... is it possible that slot 9 of the 11/40's CPU backplane is wired *specifically* for an M7800? I guess I need to spend some time tonight seeing what the differences are... but now I need to go attend to a cranky 2yo who just woke up from a nap? >> > I seem to recall something similar with one of the 11/40?s I was working on. I believe that because the 11/40 CPU backplane is wired for an M787 that things don?t work quite right if you try and install an M7856 into the SPC slot in the backplane and try and use it and not the M787. There is a way to jumper the CPU backplane so you can use na M7856 and not the M787. I haven?t really investigated it in detail (and it?s been a long time since I messed around with the 11/40 at that level). > > TTFN - Guy > > Interesting. I suppose the LTC on the M7856 could also be disabled... I'll have to try that and see if it works. The DL11-W manual doesn't seem to cover any special installation procedures for the 11/40, and the 11/40 System Manual describes Slot 9 as a "SMALL PERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (USUALLY DL11)" slot without mentioning the lack of NPG and the LTC oddity. Weird. I now have the CPU passing diagnostics with flying colors (there was a problem with the IR Decode logic causing incorrect reserved instruction traps), and I can boot RT-11 from the SCSI controller, yay. Now to track down the EIS and Stack Limit options... - Josh From RichA at livingcomputers.org Tue Nov 22 20:00:07 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 02:00:07 +0000 Subject: curious claim questioned [was RE: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US.] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE26F7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: jim stephens Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:21 PM > the Ultimate system was the only Non IBM written supervisor / system > that ran on mainframes at the time. You're going to have to be more specific than that. At what time? On what mainframe(s)? Are you saying that by the time Ultimate, whatever that is when it's at home, was running, no other non-IBM OSes were running on IBM hardware, all others being dead? Or that Ultimate was earlier than, say, MTS on IBM hardware? And are you claiming that no other manufacturers' systems are mainframes? What are you saying? Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computers: Museum + Labs 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputers.org http://www.LivingComputers.org/ From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Nov 23 05:46:25 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:46:25 +0100 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 23.11.2016 01:03, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 22, 2016 at 9:14 AM, jos wrote: > >> The MFM disk controller for later version Lilith's is clearly based on a >> WD1001-05. >> But uses a 8x305 iso 8x300. >> > All of the WD1001 controllers I've seen use 8X305. Some later WD1000 use > 8X305 also. I've disassembled the firmware of one WD1001-05 so far, and it > does not use any of the added features of the 8X305. I added a pic of a wd1001-85 and prom contents on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 Prom contents is different from the Lilith ones. Jos From mgariboldi at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 08:11:58 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:11:58 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> References: <8ba00c8a-ae26-6866-a480-346f1b6839ca@gmail.com> Message-ID: <10238a05-3ff6-0fd4-ec45-3acc558e22ec@gmail.com> What I should probably point out... On 21-NOV-2016 at 13:24 I wrote: > The following is for sale, or trade possibly. (I've tried to send this > earlier, but it didn't appear in the list, so this is my second try to > post this...) > > Most of the listed items I've used together with SGI IRIX and > HP/Compaq/DEC OpenVMS and Digital/Tru64 UNIX systems and served me very > well. > > I need to sell this by the end of the month (Nov-2016), else I'll have ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > to potentially scrap a considerable bunch of it. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ The highest priority of things that have to go, as they take a lot of space here: > - APC Smart-UPS 3000 XLM (heavy-duty, 3000VA capacity) UPS > back-up battery aggregate power system, plus special APC RJ-45 USB cable > (the whole unit is perhaps hard to ship, but not impossible I guess), > this UPS can sustain e.g. several 2U and even some 4U HP Integrity > servers for up to 30~40 minutes (depending on the loads, of course); > > [...] > - various HP, AXUS and Ciprico brand Ultra320 SCSI/S-ATA-bridged > & 2-Gbit or 4-Gbit FC external enclosures, for HDDs (optionally > including large capacity HDDs, also hardware RAID functionality > depending per enclosure), 5?" devices and more (these can be tricky to > ship, but not impossible), to summarize some of it: > -- AXUS Demon SA-16U4P Ultra320 SCSI<=>S-ATA RAID storage > enclosure, including 16 * 1-Tbyte S-ATA HDDs and spares --> advantages: > relative low power consumption and triple-redundant power > -- Ciprico/Huge Systems MediaVault 4-Gbit FC/FC-AL RAID disk > array, including transceivers, 10 * 250-Gbyte P-ATA HDDs plus one or > more spare HDDs --> advantages: low power consumption and rather silent > -- HP StorageWorks M5313A FC/FC-AL 2-Gbit (JBOD) disk array, > including transceivers and 14 * 146.8-Gbyte FC HDDs and one or two spare > HDDs, too --> note: perhaps not useful for OpenVMS users as-is, as > JBOD and FC-AL are a no-go, but it can be used in a larger SAN setup; > > [...] > - HP StorageWorks 3U external 5?" SCSI expansion enclosure, room > for 4 (68-pin) SCSI devices (including optical drives, tape drives and > including full-height models); > > [...] > > - SGI parts, like an SGI Tezro dual-processor 700-MHz R16000 > system board [...]; > > [...] > > - various optical/tape drives and media (e.g. DVD-RAM, various > data & cleaning tapes, of which many brand new), DDS/DAT of many types > (e.g. DDS-2/DAT12, DDS-3/DAT24, DDS-4/DAT40 and DDS-5/DAT72) Ultrium > (mostly LTO-1 and LTO-3), mostly of brands like HP (notably), Quantum > and Sony... [...] > -- Quantum Ultrium LTO-1 SCSI full-height tape drive > > [...] > > All the items are located in the Netherlands. I'll provide more > information and pictures on demand. People in Europe, nearby to the Netherlands, are welcome to come by, I could possibly split shipping costs, too. I also don't need a fortune for some of these things. A fair price will help to motivate me, needless to say (I paid everything I own out of my own pocket, very little was ever given to me for free... and none of the above was.) Thanks for your possible interest. - MG From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Nov 23 08:50:08 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 08:50:08 -0600 Subject: TRIAD (was RE: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping Message-ID: <000501d24598$e300ed40$a902c7c0$@classiccmp.org> The "scrapper" in NC that has the Triad contacted me directly, he had seen the discussion of the system in the classiccmp archives. He wasn't sure how to get his contact info out there, so he emailed me with his name and direct phone number. I don't want to just post it publicly (although it may already be out there somewhere, I don't know). If someone is spearheading the effort to save this machine, please contact me offlist and I'll provide the contact info. Best, J From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 09:11:55 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:11:55 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: <603b73fb-028a-d4bb-66c4-871f8bc35805@gmail.com> References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> <603b73fb-028a-d4bb-66c4-871f8bc35805@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > >> Interesting. I suppose the LTC on the M7856 could also be disabled... > I'll have to try that and see if it works. The DL11-W manual doesn't seem > to cover any special installation procedures for the 11/40, and the 11/40 > System Manual describes Slot 9 as a "SMALL PERIPHERAL CONTROLLER (USUALLY > DL11)" slot without mentioning the lack of NPG and the LTC oddity. Weird. > > I now have the CPU passing diagnostics with flying colors (there was a > problem with the IR Decode logic causing incorrect reserved instruction > traps), and I can boot RT-11 from the SCSI controller, yay. Now to track > down the EIS and Stack Limit options... > > - Josh > Josh, Glad to hear. Also this thread may have given me the clues I need to boot an RL02 / 11/40 / RT-11. 1) I never thought to check to see if my system was used with a KW11-L in the past, I too appear to have a CPU set that came from a different system. I need to check for a missing jumper in slot 3 of the CPU backplane. F03R2 and F03V2. 2) I actually do have a KW11-L (M787), but whenever I attempt to use it I can't do much other than toggle memory using the front panel. Simple CPU programs fail, and I can't boot using M9312. (I actually tried 2 of these cards, same result) I thus assumed I did not have a CPU backplane wired for a KW11-L, but it could be that it actually *is* and the problem is with the M787 card, a fault in the card. I have 0 experience with altering or testing backplane jumpers, but I will try. I have always used an extender card instead and probed signals form the extension card as a cheat. It seems like the NPG is OK AFAICT, but I did not check slot 9. It does not seem to matter whether I have a grant card in slot 9 or not either. 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with. Are these available? 4) I have been also working on getting a M7856 wired to 177560 so I can emulate a TU58. Made progress last night, will keep working on getting XXDP running. Up to this point I had been loading in one routine at a time using PDPGUI. Some success, used to learn my system was expecting a KJ11 (M737), which fortunately I had. Since then I verified that my CPU cards are correctly jumpered for what I have installed in the backplane. Per this conversation I believe I have the correct cards and enough working RAM to operate RT-11. Noel - Do you ever make a trip up my way? If you ever have time to stop by to help me with my system I'll trade you some hardware or food for your trouble... Thanks Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 10:20:03 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 11:20:03 -0500 Subject: TRIAD (was RE: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: <000501d24598$e300ed40$a902c7c0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000501d24598$e300ed40$a902c7c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Jay West wrote: > The "scrapper" in NC that has the Triad contacted me directly, he had seen > the discussion of the system in the classiccmp archives. > > He wasn't sure how to get his contact info out there, so he emailed me with > his name and direct phone number. I don't want to just post it publicly > (although it may already be out there somewhere, I don't know). > > If someone is spearheading the effort to save this machine, please contact > me offlist and I'll provide the contact info. > > Best, > > J > > > Not sure if anyone mentioned this but I am guessing this is a Novell server. Not many here seem to be into preserving Novell servers and such. I could be mistaken. Bill From ggs at shiresoft.com Wed Nov 23 10:28:46 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor Jr) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 08:28:46 -0800 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: <20161122172725.A561918C086@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <12a1f972-b64c-04b5-bced-93871bba0dae@gmail.com> <30826ed8-0fd4-127b-c92f-ab35ae96de4e@gmail.com> <84E1DB18-846D-4A09-937C-82363EA634B2@shiresoft.com> <603b73fb-028a-d4bb-66c4-871f8bc35805@gmail.com> Message-ID: > On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with. Are > these available? > Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s) TTFN - Guy From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Nov 23 11:39:53 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:39:53 +0000 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options Message-ID: Van: Guy Sotomayor Jr Verzonden: woensdag 23 november 2016 17:29 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options > On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with. Are > these available? > Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s) TTFN ? Guy ------ I soldered my two KM11?s last Sunday! I bought them from you at least eight years ago! Going to put them to good use solving issues in my 11/10 and 11/40 ? BTW, my 11/35 booted from RL02. But at the moment the 11/35 has issues ? Regarding an SLU in slot 9: AFAIR, the M7800 does not use nor connect NPR, So the M7800 will go well in slot 9 regardless of BG and NPR present or not. From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 12:00:51 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:00:51 -0500 Subject: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:39 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > > Van: Guy Sotomayor Jr > Verzonden: woensdag 23 november 2016 17:29 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts classiccmp.org> > Onderwerp: Re: ISO: PDP-11/40 LTC and Stack Limit options > > > > On Nov 23, 2016, at 7:11 AM, william degnan > wrote: > > > > > > 3) I would not mind getting something like Guy's UA11 to test with. Are > > these available? > > > > Yes, they are still available (along with KM11s) > > TTFN ? Guy > ------ > I soldered my two KM11?s last Sunday! > I bought them from you at least eight years ago! > > Going to put them to good use solving issues in my 11/10 and 11/40 ? > > BTW, my 11/35 booted from RL02. But at the moment the 11/35 has issues ? > Regarding an SLU in slot 9: AFAIR, the M7800 does not use nor connect NPR, > So the M7800 will go well in slot 9 regardless of BG and NPR present or > not. > > Please advise the order form/whatever to read about and if applicable order a UA11, thanks BTW - I put a 7800 (9600b) in my 11/40 in slot 9, works. I usually have the serial card in my 11DD-B backplane, slot 1. b From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 23 12:30:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:30:08 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <377c80fe-96ce-cad6-39e7-0fcebee0b317@bitsavers.org> On 11/23/16 3:46 AM, jos wrote: > I added a pic of a wd1001-85 and prom contents on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 > what system was this from ? From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 23 12:30:53 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:30:53 -0500 Subject: Help! Looking for rolls of paper tape for teletypes, twx and telex all Message-ID: <287451.b4e480d.45673a5d@aol.com> Help! Looking for rolls of paper tape for teletypes, twx and telex all widths. As we have an array of these machines at SMECC and like to demo them and always need tape to print on and punch! Size varies between just smaller than 3/6 inch to one inch wide and several sizes in between. Please check your closets and storage... you may have some and not know it! drop a note off list please to us. Thanks Ed Sharpe Archivist for SMECC From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Wed Nov 23 12:37:14 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:37:14 +0100 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: <377c80fe-96ce-cad6-39e7-0fcebee0b317@bitsavers.org> References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> <377c80fe-96ce-cad6-39e7-0fcebee0b317@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <658859eb-2c8b-62eb-3029-d00630acf823@greenmail.ch> On 23.11.2016 19:30, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/23/16 3:46 AM, jos wrote: > >> I added a pic of a wd1001-85 and prom contents on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 >> > what system was this from ? > > No idea... Bought from a fellow collector as a a loose PCB. It was set up for SA1000 disks, not MFM. Jos From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 12:37:40 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:37:40 -0800 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> Session 11 video: https://youtu.be/OKakermaQ68 > On Oct 13, 2016, at 12:10 AM, Curious Marc wrote: > > Session 9 here gets us into microcode RAM trouble: > https://youtu.be/VWQ7hbV7bN0 > Ken?s corresponding blog article > http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day-9-tracing.html > > Marc > > And it finally boots on session 8! > https://youtu.be/9OQMhvArI9g > > > On Sep 10, 2016, at 7:46 PM, CuriousMarc > > wrote: > > > > Video of session 6 is up: > > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 > > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. > > > > > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long > > why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > > > > Marc > > > > > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc > > wrote: > > Next Episode: > > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_31.html > > Marc > > > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto > > machines > > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day_11.html > > > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc > > wrote: > > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > > Should be up in a few minutes. > > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC > > (former Xerox Parc) at the session. Marc > > > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try > > that this week-end. Marc > > > > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On > > the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language-on-xerox.html > > Marc > > > > There are only two entries right now: > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox-alto-day.html > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > -- > 73 AF6WS > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > http://bickleywest.com > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 13:13:30 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:13:30 -0600 Subject: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto machines In-Reply-To: <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> References: <116225ef-4848-540b-f734-4670a0471790@bitsavers.org> <297f0d2c-ed44-e9f6-3521-963b2851f740@bitsavers.org> <002901d1cc4b$3e223de0$ba66b9a0$@gmail.com> <198FBBD6-796A-4C88-B9CE-C7BD13AA5723@gmail.com> <1219DEB2-6144-44EF-9AC1-3054AD0D52FD@gmail.com> <25A4E234-D4BF-4E5D-BD0B-6AD2F08E0596@gmail.com> <012d01d1eb91$d297bd00$77c73700$@gmail.com> <4C099D46-98BC-4F4C-80C6-FA011128BFB5@gmail.com> <62098BE0-1EC4-490C-94CE-DB5DC078C4B3@gmail.com> <016e01d20bd6$a8d23120$fa769360$@gmail.com> <20160926233318.15662cf0@asrock.bcwi.net> <262FDB45-A33A-4F0D-BADD-19FAC76BA868@gmail.com> <1FFD331E-DD61-4BBA-AE6A-1053B9C56D1C@gmail.com> Message-ID: saw it earlyer :D On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Curious Marc wrote: > Session 11 video: > https://youtu.be/OKakermaQ68 > > > On Oct 13, 2016, at 12:10 AM, Curious Marc > wrote: > > > > Session 9 here gets us into microcode RAM trouble: > > https://youtu.be/VWQ7hbV7bN0 > > Ken?s corresponding blog article > > http://www.righto.com/2016/10/restoring-ycs-xerox-alto-day- > 9-tracing.html > > > > Marc > > > > And it finally boots on session 8! > > https://youtu.be/9OQMhvArI9g > > > > > On Sep 10, 2016, at 7:46 PM, CuriousMarc > > > wrote: > > > > > > Video of session 6 is up: > > > https://youtu.be/b7yVhMT7tr4 > > > Found our first bad IC. Probably not our last one. > > > > > > > > > On 9/3/16 11:08 PM, curiousmarc3 at gmail.com wrote: > > > Episode 5, still does not boot, but we are starting to follow long > > > why: https://youtu.be/Wr7vDZpniNIr > > > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > On Jul 31, 2016, at 6:12 PM, CuriousMarc > > > wrote: > > > Next Episode: > > > https://youtu.be/EDw8U1a6s78 > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox- > alto-day_31.html > > > Marc > > > > > > From: Curious Marc [mailto:curiousmarc3 at gmail.com] > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2016 2:01 AM > > > To: Curious Marc; cctalk at classiccmp.org > > > Subject: Re: Y Combinator is restoring one of Alan Kay's Xerox Alto > > > machines > > > Ken's in-depth blog post to go with the previous video > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox- > alto-day_11.html > > > > > > On Jul 5, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Curious Marc > > > wrote: > > > Video from yesterday?s work on the Diablo cartridge disc: > > > https://youtu.be/PR5LkQugBE0 > > > Should be up in a few minutes. > > > We were tickled pink to have official representation from PARC > > > (former Xerox Parc) at the session. Marc > > > > > > Ken?s new post on the monitor repair to go with my previous video. > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/07/restoring-y-combinators-xerox- > alto-day.html > > > Al Kossow got us a new CRT tube, so we are probably going to try > > > that this week-end. Marc > > > > > > > > > Latest entry from Ken Shirriff, trying out BCPL (ancestor of C). On > > > the emulator, not yet on the real machine: > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/hello-world-in-bcpl-language- > on-xerox.html > > > Marc > > > > > > There are only two entries right now: > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/y-combinators-xerox-alto-restoring.html > > > http://www.righto.com/2016/06/restoring-y-combinators-xerox- > alto-day.html > > > Marc > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > 73 AF6WS > > Bickley Consulting West Inc. > > http://bickleywest.com > > > > "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 23 13:47:01 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 11:47:01 -0800 Subject: iRMX II lives! Message-ID: <86e20c92-0c98-79b2-7cd9-285d474cc6c7@bitsavers.org> Used Dave's emulator to image the hd in an Intel SYP310 and to my surprise it had an iRMX II (286) development toolchain on it. The MAME guys got it running in simulation in about 30 minutes. Anyone have any documentation or software distributions? iRMX development stuff is extremely hard to find, esp the 286 version. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 14:06:30 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:06:30 -0600 Subject: Novell was Re: TRIAD Message-ID: I think it's the hardware or server company folks might have an attachment towards. I only saw novell 3.x and up but it was all standard x86 arch. Did they support other platforms? -------- Original message --------?Not many here seem to be into preserving Novell servers and such. ?? I could be mistaken. Bill From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 23 14:15:21 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:15:21 -0800 Subject: Novell was Re: TRIAD In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/23/16 12:06 PM, Sam O'nella wrote: > I think it's the hardware or server company folks might have an attachment towards. I only saw novell 3.x and up but it was all standard x86 arch. Did they support other platforms? really early Novell servers were 68000 based http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102716059 From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Nov 23 15:15:15 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:15:15 -0800 Subject: Fwd: curious claim questioned [was RE: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US.] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE26F7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE26F7@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <2fce6203-c88a-36e5-ec47-9607b94d472d@jwsss.com> -------- Forwarded Message -------- Subject: curious claim questioned [was RE: Free IBM system/1(?) in eastern US.] Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 02:00:07 +0000 From: Rich Alderson Reply-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' From: jim stephens Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2016 3:21 PM > the Ultimate system was the only Non IBM written supervisor / system > that ran on mainframes at the time. You're going to have to be more specific than that. At what time? On what mainframe(s)? Are you saying that by the time Ultimate, whatever that is when it's at home, was running, no other non-IBM OSes were running on IBM hardware, all others being dead? Or that Ultimate was earlier than, say, MTS on IBM hardware? And are you claiming that no other manufacturers' systems are mainframes? What are you saying? Rich At the time the only OS's were VM and MVS on IBM hardware as far as IBM was concerned for maintenance purposes. If you had MTS or anything else they would run diagnostics for you at most on a contract, then hit the door. If Ultimate had a problem with running, there was a support path for that OS and it was not an IBM OS. The hardware calls related to problems with the OS not working would not be billed T&M by IBM like they would be for any other service calls. If an IBM CE came on site and saw Ultimate it would come up on his little radio gizmo and not be totally unsupported. Ultimate's OS from about 81 thru maybe 88 when Ultimate collapsed and support was taken over by the Florida guys who bought the software rights eventually was the only OS like that. You could boot and run anything you wanted to, but if you had a problem and an IBM service contract, you would get billed T&M for the call unless their diagnostics showed something. With Ultimate, they would run whatever we directed them to if it got to that, and the support call would be in scope of the contract. Thanks Jim From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 23 15:41:02 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:41:02 -0800 Subject: Fan deal? Message-ID: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> Dunno if this will appeal to any of the readership, but Electronics Goldmine is offering a box of 30 new Papst 80 mm 24 volt fans for $10. http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G21651A I like Papst as a good brand. I just have no use of 30 24 volt fans. --Chuck From jonnydclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 11:17:09 2016 From: jonnydclark at gmail.com (jon clark) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: TRIAD (was RE: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <000501d24598$e300ed40$a902c7c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Let me know what more pictures or information would be helpful in knowing if it is worth saving. I can take pictures of the terminals.but if anything specific is needed off of the Triad main let me know. On Nov 23, 2016 11:58 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Jay West wrote: > > > The "scrapper" in NC that has the Triad contacted me directly, he had > seen > > the discussion of the system in the classiccmp archives. > > > > He wasn't sure how to get his contact info out there, so he emailed me > with > > his name and direct phone number. I don't want to just post it publicly > > (although it may already be out there somewhere, I don't know). > > > > If someone is spearheading the effort to save this machine, please > contact > > me offlist and I'll provide the contact info. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > > > > > > Not sure if anyone mentioned this but I am guessing this is a Novell > server. Not many here seem to be into preserving Novell servers and such. > I could be mistaken. > > Bill > From jonnydclark at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 11:17:09 2016 From: jonnydclark at gmail.com (jon clark) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 12:17:09 -0500 Subject: TRIAD (was RE: Some scrapper in NC has an old machine Labled TRIAD he is scrapping In-Reply-To: References: <000501d24598$e300ed40$a902c7c0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Let me know what more pictures or information would be helpful in knowing if it is worth saving. I can take pictures of the terminals.but if anything specific is needed off of the Triad main let me know. On Nov 23, 2016 11:58 AM, "william degnan" wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 9:50 AM, Jay West wrote: > > > The "scrapper" in NC that has the Triad contacted me directly, he had > seen > > the discussion of the system in the classiccmp archives. > > > > He wasn't sure how to get his contact info out there, so he emailed me > with > > his name and direct phone number. I don't want to just post it publicly > > (although it may already be out there somewhere, I don't know). > > > > If someone is spearheading the effort to save this machine, please > contact > > me offlist and I'll provide the contact info. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > > > > > > Not sure if anyone mentioned this but I am guessing this is a Novell > server. Not many here seem to be into preserving Novell servers and such. > I could be mistaken. > > Bill > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 23 15:57:00 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 13:57:00 -0800 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> References: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> Message-ID: <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> "noise 48dB, speed 5000 RPM" Don't be in the same room with these for long Papst is a good brand, though. Weird Stuff had some 6" metal 110v ones for $10/ea so I bought a bunch to replace all the sleeve bearing ones that have been seizing up in my tape oven. On 11/23/16 1:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Dunno if this will appeal to any of the readership, but Electronics > Goldmine is offering a box of 30 new Papst 80 mm 24 volt fans for $10. > > http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G21651A > > I like Papst as a good brand. I just have no use of 30 24 volt fans. > > --Chuck > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Wed Nov 23 16:01:09 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 22:01:09 +0000 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> Message-ID: On 23/11/2016 21:41, "Chuck Guzis" wrote: > Dunno if this will appeal to any of the readership, but Electronics > Goldmine is offering a box of 30 new Papst 80 mm 24 volt fans for $10. > > http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G21651A > > I like Papst as a good brand. I just have no use of 30 24 volt fans. > > --Chuck Only $10! Curses, I'm several thousand miles too far in the wrong direction. I don't need 30 though but could do with two or three. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Nov 23 16:08:12 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:08:12 -0600 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> References: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20161123220812.GA21059@lonesome.com> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 01:57:00PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > Don't be in the same room with these for long It'd be a lot quieter than anything I have powered on in the rack ATM. mcl From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 16:39:58 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:39:58 -0700 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces Message-ID: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, bone headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships disabled every couple of weeks? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 16:45:45 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 14:45:45 -0800 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 2:39 PM, wrote: > Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and > bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, bone > headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships disabled every > couple of weeks? > > Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal source for the bounce? -- Charles From rp at servium.ch Wed Nov 23 16:51:02 2016 From: rp at servium.ch (Rico Pajarola) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:51:02 +0100 Subject: iRMX II lives! In-Reply-To: <86e20c92-0c98-79b2-7cd9-285d474cc6c7@bitsavers.org> References: <86e20c92-0c98-79b2-7cd9-285d474cc6c7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: woot! \o/ Any chance of making this available? On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 8:47 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > Used Dave's emulator to image the hd in an Intel SYP310 and to my > surprise it had an iRMX II (286) development toolchain on it. The > MAME guys got it running in simulation in about 30 minutes. > > Anyone have any documentation or software distributions? > > iRMX development stuff is extremely hard to find, esp the 286 version. > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 23 17:09:08 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:09:08 -0800 Subject: iRMX II lives! In-Reply-To: References: <86e20c92-0c98-79b2-7cd9-285d474cc6c7@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/23/16 2:51 PM, Rico Pajarola wrote: > woot! \o/ > > Any chance of making this available? > yes, as soon as I can make an image that doesn't have anyone's personal files on it. From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 17:10:09 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:10:09 +0000 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: +1 - this is getting stupid. 4th time I've had to sign up again... On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 14:45 Charles Anthony wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 2:39 PM, wrote: > > > Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and > > bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, bone > > headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships disabled > every > > couple of weeks? > > > > > Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always > puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal > source for the bounce? > > -- Charles > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Nov 23 17:26:57 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:26:57 -0000 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: <014d01d245e1$15235180$3f69f480$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian Finder > Sent: 23 November 2016 23:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Membership disabled due to bounces > > +1 - this is getting stupid. 4th time I've had to sign up again... > This has been happening to me for months, regularly about every two weeks. It happened again today. Regards Rob From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 23 17:53:26 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:53:26 -0500 (EST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: <201611232353.SAA03134@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and bounc$ Reliable? Maybe. There _are_ a few things I count on it for. (Antisocial things, but if reliability per se is your goodness criterion....) If you really feel so strongly about it that you're willing to (by implication) say Jay's system is lying about seeing bounces, maybe you'd be happier just unsubbing? I long ago configured my mailer to silently drop mail from classiccmp lists it would normally bounce (such as mail claiming to be 8859-1 but containing octets outside the 8859-1 printable range, to pick one simple example), and I can't recall ever seeing my listmembership disabled since that, certainly not "every couple of weeks". This all leads me to doubt your "bounces never happen" claim. What is your basis for it? I'm tempted to also suggest you configure your mailer the way I did mine, but I'm inclined to suspect gmail isn't civilized enough to provide that level of control. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 23 17:54:36 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:54:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and >>> bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, >>> bone headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships >>> disabled every couple of weeks? On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always > puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal > source for the bounce? IF the problem is caused by COURYHOUSE having an AOL address, would it be possible to set up a filter to maks the aol address to look like something else to gmail? Does gmail/Google acknowledge the existence of the problem? From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 17:57:40 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 15:57:40 -0800 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > >> Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always >> puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal >> source for the bounce? >> > > ^^^ Mis-attributed; I (Charles) said that, and I have no data to go on -- pure speculation. -- Charles From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 23 18:24:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:24:21 -0500 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces Message-ID: <2a1fac.71e7af55.45678d34@aol.com> no the only one that gets bounced is me. and I have to re enable it every so often not a lot though.... just sometimes In a message dated 11/23/2016 4:57:44 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, charles.unix.pro at gmail.com writes: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 3:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>>> On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > >> Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always >> puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal >> source for the bounce? >> > > ^^^ Mis-attributed; I (Charles) said that, and I have no data to go on -- pure speculation. -- Charles From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 18:41:45 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:41:45 -0600 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: <20161123220812.GA21059@lonesome.com> References: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> <20161123220812.GA21059@lonesome.com> Message-ID: if they were 120v id be interested for work On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 01:57:00PM -0800, Al Kossow wrote: > > Don't be in the same room with these for long > > It'd be a lot quieter than anything I have powered on in the rack ATM. > > mcl > From gtoal at gtoal.com Wed Nov 23 18:46:29 2016 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:46:29 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 5:54 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and >>>> bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, bone >>>> headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships disabled every >>>> couple of weeks? >>>> >>> > On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > >> Not an expert on mailing lists, but I wonder if the fact that gmail always >> puts COURYHOUSE into the spam folder due to AOL weirdness is the signal >> source for the bounce? >> > > IF the problem is caused by COURYHOUSE having an AOL address, would it be > possible to set up a filter to maks the aol address to look like something > else to gmail? > I haven't checked his headers lately but when this started happening some years ago I looked into it and the cause was that he was sending through an ISP other than AOL, and the SPF mechanism was correctly marking his mail as effectively being a forgery, which any site that checks SPF would reject. In the case of being received by gmail, this did not cause a bounce but did mark it as spam requiring a rule to be written to force it to bypass the spam bucket. This may indeed be related to the problem other people are having. If your email account is with one internet vendor, don't use that vendor's address in the From line if you're injecting it via a different vendor. Graham PS SPF is evil and wrong-headed for many reasons, but that is a rant for another forum! From geneb at deltasoft.com Wed Nov 23 18:48:41 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:48:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 23 Nov 2016, chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com wrote: > Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and > bounces never happen. Is anybody ever going to fix this brain dead, bone > headed bug, or can we expect to continue getting memberships disabled > every couple of weeks? Do you know what triggers that error? A BOUNCE. Just because you're convinced of gmail's infalibility doesn't mean it actually is. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From mbbrutman at brutman.com Wed Nov 23 18:55:06 2016 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 16:55:06 -0800 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for authentication." Digging deeper into the header one finds: "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. From echristopherson at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 19:00:10 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:00:10 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016, Michael Brutman wrote: > Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It > has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for > authentication." > > Digging deeper into the header one finds: > > "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; > dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; > spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; > dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" > > > I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, though? -- Eric Christopherson From gtoal at gtoal.com Wed Nov 23 19:00:11 2016 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:00:11 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 6:55 PM, Michael Brutman wrote: > Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It > has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for > authentication." > > Digging deeper into the header one finds: > > "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; > dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; > spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; > dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" > > > I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. > Yes. Basically AOL is saying that classiccmp.org should not send mail out where the "From:" address is AOL. They're probably in the wrong but it can be worked around by having the mailing list set the From/Sender to be classiccmp, but change the Reply-To to be the original From unless there is already a Reply-To. I used to play these frustrating games with Listserv, not sure if they're possible with this system. The reason other people don't have the same problem is that most people's domains are not so fascist as to insist that their From address is not used in this way. From spectre at floodgap.com Wed Nov 23 19:02:51 2016 From: spectre at floodgap.com (Cameron Kaiser) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 17:02:51 -0800 (PST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> from Eric Christopherson at "Nov 23, 16 07:00:10 pm" Message-ID: <201611240102.uAO12pto7405654@floodgap.com> > > Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It > > has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for > > authentication." > > > > Digging deeper into the header one finds: > > > > "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > > sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; > > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; > > dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; > > spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > > sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; > > dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" > > > > > > I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. > > Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, > though? Not here, but my mailswerver doesn't rigidly enforce SPF. -- ------------------------------------ personal: http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * ckaiser at floodgap.com -- Roger Waters, orthopaedist: "Hey! Careful with your back, Eugene!" --------- From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 19:38:42 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 19:38:42 -0600 Subject: Happy turkey day to the list Message-ID: Should we do some sort of tradition of what vintage computing item we're thankful for? If ?that's too much of a repeat it could be a vintage project this year that you're thankful for. I know we're all thankful for Jay and classiccmp.org. I'm thankful for my recent successful visit to San Jose. ?I was fortunate enough to get to experience both Weird Stuff (first time) and the CHM (2nd time but previous was VCF 10). Was great to hear some other visitors at the museum bringing up memories and some chatter about teaching kids about old tech. One visitor was talking about how he had a class do a sort of human logic array so they'd hold hands if it was true or false (like the battery, thread spindle/paperclip, light bulb intro form building your own computer books). Picked up some Byte magazines from Weird Stuff as a souvenir and of course bought some shirts and a donation to support the museum. On the 8.5 hour drive back to wgere i was supposed to be I listened to some old RCR podcasts I think it was David Greelish, Bill Degnan, Earl Evans and Jason Scott) lol. Probably one of the first couple episodes. Good time and you all kept me awake on a dark Pacific Highway 1. So thankful for you all too. :-p? - John From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 23 20:32:16 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:32:16 -0800 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: References: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> <20161123220812.GA21059@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On 11/23/2016 04:41 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote: > if they were 120v id be interested for work FWIW, I've used 24VDC fans on 12VDC; they still work (these were Panaflos), only the airflow is lower. In some cases, still useful. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Nov 23 20:35:14 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 18:35:14 -0800 Subject: Fan deal? In-Reply-To: <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> References: <1c7639c7-013c-e9b4-632f-a05992b933d6@sydex.com> <3d16a7f0-0bd6-9e47-b34a-65d540bbd72d@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/23/2016 01:57 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > "noise 48dB, speed 5000 RPM" > > Don't be in the same room with these for long > > Papst is a good brand, though. > > Weird Stuff had some 6" metal 110v ones for $10/ea so I bought a > bunch to replace all the sleeve bearing ones that have been seizing > up in my tape oven. Hmmm--in my oven there's a low-speed 6" blade type fan that merely serves to keep the air moving. It's a sealed insulated box heated by a single 75W incandescent bulb. With a PID controller, the temperature is very, very stable and you can't hear the thing in operation in most environments. --Chuck From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 21:08:55 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:08:55 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <201611240102.uAO12pto7405654@floodgap.com> References: <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> <201611240102.uAO12pto7405654@floodgap.com> Message-ID: Weird I got one of these notices today when I replayed to a thread On Nov 23, 2016 7:02 PM, "Cameron Kaiser" wrote: > > > Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " > It > > > has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests > for > > > authentication." > > > > > > Digging deeper into the header one finds: > > > > > > "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > > > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > > > sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; > > > Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; > > > dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; > > > spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of > > > cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted > > > sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; > > > dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" > > > > > > > > > I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. > > > > Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, > > though? > > Not here, but my mailswerver doesn't rigidly enforce SPF. > > -- > ------------------------------------ personal: > http://www.cameronkaiser.com/ -- > Cameron Kaiser * Floodgap Systems * www.floodgap.com * > ckaiser at floodgap.com > -- Roger Waters, orthopaedist: "Hey! Careful with your back, Eugene!" > --------- > From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 23 23:02:54 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 23:02:54 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces Message-ID: <9r7f7q5kefvbrrots5lck48f.1479963774994@email.android.com> Ditto although my timing was odd and I may have gotten the notice prior to replying. ?I emailed Jay off list but understandably he should be having some family time during this holiday break and not having to worry about us right now :-) Hopefully there's a log or something noting what the mail service did or what bounced if anything. -------- Original message --------From: Adrian Stoness Weird I got one of these notices today when I replayed to a thread From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Wed Nov 23 23:05:08 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 00:05:08 -0500 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> Message-ID: <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> On 11/23/2016 8:00 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016, Michael Brutman wrote: >> Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It >> has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for >> authentication." >> >> Digging deeper into the header one finds: >> >> "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >> sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; >> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; >> dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; >> spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >> sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; >> dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" >> >> >> I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. > > Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, > though? > I get disabled regularly. My address is at Yahoo. Currently I'm sitting at 2.0 out of 5.0 for my bounce score. The previous disabled messages came at: 11/20/2016 11/06/2016 10/25/2016 10/18/2016 10/13/2016 10/05/2016 09/26/2016 09/10/2016 08/23/2016 08/11/2016 08/06/2016 08/01/2016 07/19/2016 07/10/2016 07/01/2016 A fairly uneven distribution. None repeating sooner than 5 days and sometimes taking up to 18 days before hitting the 5.0 bounce limit. I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've had this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? John H. Reinhardt From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Nov 23 23:22:31 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 00:22:31 -0500 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces Message-ID: <2ea5b7.41288509.4567d317@aol.com> seems odd some list serves have this problem and some do not out there... which would suggest it may be a matter of the way the listserv is configured. I hear people with yahoo mail complain about some list serves but they also say some cause no problem at all. Most of it is a mystery to me as I have not run a listserv on a server or a mailserver.. Ed# In a message dated 11/23/2016 10:05:13 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com writes: On 11/23/2016 8:00 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Wed, Nov 23, 2016, Michael Brutman wrote: >> Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It >> has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for >> authentication." >> >> Digging deeper into the header one finds: >> >> "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >> sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; >> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; >> dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; >> spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >> sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; >> dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" >> >> >> I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. > > Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, > though? > I get disabled regularly. My address is at Yahoo. Currently I'm sitting at 2.0 out of 5.0 for my bounce score. The previous disabled messages came at: 11/20/2016 11/06/2016 10/25/2016 10/18/2016 10/13/2016 10/05/2016 09/26/2016 09/10/2016 08/23/2016 08/11/2016 08/06/2016 08/01/2016 07/19/2016 07/10/2016 07/01/2016 A fairly uneven distribution. None repeating sooner than 5 days and sometimes taking up to 18 days before hitting the 5.0 bounce limit. I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've had this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? John H. Reinhardt From rlloken at telus.net Wed Nov 23 23:43:37 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Wed, 23 Nov 2016 22:43:37 -0700 (MST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: 9mDhcmZ1HmNym9mDic89By References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> 9mDhcmZ1HmNym9mDic89By Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've had > this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration > problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? I doubt that changing your email provider will help. My mail is constantly being disabled now that I am using my ISP address but it wasn't while I was using my work email address but I think that is a coincidence - the problem did not manifest itself until a few weeks after I changed my email address. By the way, I am my employer's email administrator and I know that I was not doing anything special to make the email go through - no spf records, no nothing. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From gtoal at gtoal.com Thu Nov 24 00:19:27 2016 From: gtoal at gtoal.com (Graham Toal) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 00:19:27 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 23, 2016 at 11:43 PM, Richard Loken wrote: > On Thu, 24 Nov 2016, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've >> had this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration >> problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? >> > > I doubt that changing your email provider will help. > > My mail is constantly being disabled now that I am using my ISP address > but it wasn't while I was using my work email address but I think that > is a coincidence - the problem did not manifest itself until a few > weeks after I changed my email address. > > By the way, I am my employer's email administrator and I know that I was > not doing anything special to make the email go through - no spf records, > no nothing. Not so. By doing nothing (ie NOT creating an SPF record for the sending domain) you pretty much guarantee a lack of problems. (At least, these specific problems). It's the smart aleck admins who do create SPF records etc who cause the problems, in conjunction with recipients that think these records are worth paying attention to. The irony is that SPF was invented by the advertising industry to ensure that their so called 'legitimate' bulk mail gets through; it does very little to stop actual spam and it completely messes up mailing lists and people who use traditional SMTP mail while travelling. Sorry, I shouldn't start on SPF, it just drives me crazy. If you are a DNS admin, *please* don't fall for the SPF bullshit. (For some reason Microsoft are totally enamored of it and twist their clients' arms to enable it :-/ ) G From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Nov 24 09:34:18 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 15:34:18 +0000 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: <658859eb-2c8b-62eb-3029-d00630acf823@greenmail.ch> References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> <377c80fe-96ce-cad6-39e7-0fcebee0b317@bitsavers.org>, <658859eb-2c8b-62eb-3029-d00630acf823@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: I have a loose WD1000 someplace that I was going to use as for spare parts, for the trs80 board I'm using. If I can find it, I can dump the ROMs. Do I need to make adapters for them? When I first got the TRS80 one, it had a bad WDxxxx chip ( forget which one) but I found one a Anchor Elect. I later bought the WD1000 board as insurance. Dwight ________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of jos Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2016 10:37:14 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers On 23.11.2016 19:30, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/23/16 3:46 AM, jos wrote: > >> I added a pic of a wd1001-85 and prom contents on ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 >> > what system was this from ? > > No idea... Bought from a fellow collector as a a loose PCB. It was set up for SA1000 disks, not MFM. Jos From aek at bitsavers.org Thu Nov 24 10:37:15 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 08:37:15 -0800 Subject: Reverse-engineering WD1000, WD1001 hard disk controllers In-Reply-To: References: <9cc661e0-eef5-2fb0-4e74-38e01cf01be3@bitsavers.org> <377c80fe-96ce-cad6-39e7-0fcebee0b317@bitsavers.org> <658859eb-2c8b-62eb-3029-d00630acf823@greenmail.ch> Message-ID: On 11/24/16 7:34 AM, dwight wrote: > I have a loose WD1000 someplace that I was going to use as for spare parts, for the trs80 board I'm using. take a look at the pictures of the boards on bitsavers to see if they've already been dumped they are bipolar, 24 pin .6 are 82s181 .3 are 82s147 we have only one of the .3 boards dumped (telvideo) From echristopherson at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 11:20:53 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:20:53 -0600 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Nov 23, 2016 11:05 PM, "John H. Reinhardt" wrote: > > > On 11/23/2016 8:00 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >> >> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016, Michael Brutman wrote: >>> >>> Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " It >>> has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests for >>> authentication." >>> >>> Digging deeper into the header one finds: >>> >>> "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >>> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >>> sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; >>> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; >>> dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; >>> spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >>> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >>> sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; >>> dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" >>> >>> >>> I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. >> >> >> Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, >> though? >> > > I get disabled regularly. My address is at Yahoo. Currently I'm sitting at 2.0 out of 5.0 for my bounce score. What's a bounce score, and how do you know what yours is and what the limit is? Does classiccmp specify 5.0, or Yahoo, or what? > The previous disabled messages came at: > > 11/20/2016 > 11/06/2016 > 10/25/2016 > 10/18/2016 > 10/13/2016 > 10/05/2016 > 09/26/2016 > 09/10/2016 > 08/23/2016 > 08/11/2016 > 08/06/2016 > 08/01/2016 > 07/19/2016 > 07/10/2016 > 07/01/2016 > > A fairly uneven distribution. None repeating sooner than 5 days and sometimes taking up to 18 days before hitting the 5.0 bounce limit. > > I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've had this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? > > John H. Reinhardt From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Thu Nov 24 12:53:39 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 13:53:39 -0500 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On 11/24/2016 12:20 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > What's a bounce score, and how do you know what yours is and what the > limit is? Does classiccmp specify 5.0, or Yahoo, or what? > When you get the message saying you have been disabled, it contains two links. One is the link to re-enable your subscription, the other is a link to your member page at classiccmp.org. There is also your account password. If you log into that page it tells your your current "Bounce Score". John H. Reinhardt From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 15:51:15 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 16:51:15 -0500 Subject: Thanksgiving Day Message-ID: I wanted to wish all American readers of this list a very happy Thanksgiving Day from a reader in Canada. Reading 'Classic Computing' still plays an important part in my appreciation of the role of computers from earlier years in why I still enjoy working with computers. Happy computing. Murray :) From cclist at sydex.com Thu Nov 24 18:34:03 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 16:34:03 -0800 Subject: Thanksgiving Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/24/2016 01:51 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > I wanted to wish all American readers of this list a very happy > Thanksgiving Day from a reader in Canada. Reading 'Classic > Computing' still plays an important part in my appreciation of the > role of computers from earlier years in why I still enjoy working > with computers. Happy computing. Murray :) > Murry, I'm sorry that we forgot to pre-empt your wishes on October 9. I did wish some of my Canadian friends happy returns for the day then, however. I'm a bit giddy right now--the pies are done, the other dishes are cooked and tastes and the bird's in the oven. Short of the dog getting into the feast, I think I'm home free. (You can tell who does the cooking in our house). I imagine that some have already hit the stores and others are settling down for an evening of football... --Chuck From rlloken at telus.net Thu Nov 24 22:52:33 2016 From: rlloken at telus.net (Richard Loken) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 21:52:33 -0700 (MST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: 9nNwcmagUCdRJ9nNxcyHGC References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> 9nNwcmagUCdRJ9nNxcyHGC Message-ID: On Thu, 24 Nov 2016, Graham Toal wrote: > Not so. By doing nothing (ie NOT creating an SPF record for the sending > domain) you pretty much guarantee a lack of problems. (At least, these > specific problems). It's the smart aleck admins who do create SPF records > etc who cause the problems, in conjunction with recipients that think these > records are worth paying attention to. The irony is that SPF was invented > by the advertising industry to ensure that their so called 'legitimate' > bulk mail gets through; it does very little to stop actual spam and it > completely messes up mailing lists and people who use traditional SMTP mail > while travelling. Sorry, I shouldn't start on SPF, it just drives me > crazy. If you are a DNS admin, *please* don't fall for the SPF bullshit. > (For some reason Microsoft are totally enamored of it and twist their > clients' arms to enable it :-/ ) You are preaching to the choir. Some of the first implementers of SPFs were outfits that the rest of us would call spammers. As for Micro$oft, my employer trashed our Zimbra and PMDF servers and sent us over to Office365 so now I spend my time babysitting Exchange in the cloud, writing PowerShell scripts, and waiting a Micro$oft minute for things to happen that used to be immediate. And you are right, Micro$ofts loves SPFs but they do nothing at all to expedite our mail through their servers. And in honour of Micro$oft, SPFs, and my 21st century managers, I am retiring in 29 days. -- Richard Loken VE6BSV, Systems Programmer - VMS : "...underneath those Athabasca University : tuques we wear, our Athabasca, Alberta Canada : heads are naked!" ** rlloken at telus.net ** : - Arthur Black From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Nov 24 23:51:40 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 23:51:40 -0600 Subject: Turkey Day Scans: TELEX Message-ID: I received another big pile of random documentation this week and these floated to the top and landed directly on my scanner: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/WesternUnion Circa 1968-9 Western Union TELEX brochures, rate charts and a little bit of ASR32 technical data. Really interesting stuff for fans of early data networks, as well as groovy graphic design! Enjoy... -j From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 25 00:45:49 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 22:45:49 -0800 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <201611240102.uAO12pto7405654@floodgap.com> References: <201611240102.uAO12pto7405654@floodgap.com> Message-ID: <1f388f12-dfb6-4461-add4-35de92cc8bcc@jwsss.com> From chocolate... "Gmail is only the single most reliable mail provider in the world, and bounces never happen." On 11/23/2016 5:02 PM, Cameron Kaiser wrote: > >Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, > >though? The thread about email to AOL is not on topic to the original post. The original topic is ezwind / classiccmp emails going to gmail.com and whether it was not failing, therefore it must be the mailing list processors fault. I subscribe at both my own domain, as well as an archival copy on my gmail account, which I seldom reference. I did also have a bounce disable today when I went and looked. It did not unsubscribe me, but had the link to do the re-enable. I went to the user page, and found no link to get a bounce profile / count for my id or anything as someone mentioned to attempt to help. Where is that? I'd check that if i could see what the failures are and adjust if I could. I've not been unsubscribed, but disabled, and though annoying, and considering that the list is a labor of love, I'm not complaining, just helping. Please keep that in mind, or it may go away. Infinite patience on the part of providers of truly free services may not exist. Glad to have what we have when we have it to chat here. I do see a number of gmail disables here, perhaps the logs aren't so huge that that the bounces for the gmail bounces might be something to diagnose the problem if we just let someone get back from holiday and look at it. Mean time, my main email didn't disable, and I have this thread and am responding from there. As to how everyone has their email clients / processors set up, that is something that they or their providers are responsible for, not the list. A friend of mine hosts my domain on a system with the network presence for the domain on it, and has had it, and both DNS and the email service have failed completely a couple of times in the last 6 months. Neither time caused a bounce or unsubscribe. The list emails were held probably from ezwind when it could finally contact our domains again, and I then received several thousand emails (because I get all emails for my domains in one bucket, which I filter). I am not an email expert (which is why I won't volunteer to do much here), but the failure mode which occurs when the sender or an intermediate relay holds the email apparently holds the emails for some period was probably triggered, rather than just an instant bounce. Also he does maintain a second system on a different ISP for this system, but the failure took out both systems. Myy last unsub was on Nov 8 on gmail, now Nov 23 thanks Jim From isking at uw.edu Fri Nov 25 01:46:16 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 23:46:16 -0800 Subject: Thanksgiving Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 11/24/2016 01:51 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > > I wanted to wish all American readers of this list a very happy > > Thanksgiving Day from a reader in Canada. Reading 'Classic > > Computing' still plays an important part in my appreciation of the > > role of computers from earlier years in why I still enjoy working > > with computers. Happy computing. Murray :) > > > Murry, I'm sorry that we forgot to pre-empt your wishes on October 9. I > did wish some of my Canadian friends happy returns for the day then, > however. > > I'm a bit giddy right now--the pies are done, the other dishes are > cooked and tastes and the bird's in the oven. Short of the dog getting > into the feast, I think I'm home free. (You can tell who does the > cooking in our house). > > I imagine that some have already hit the stores and others are settling > down for an evening of football... > > --Chuck > I had an unexpectedly delightful experience: I was at my local pub and the power went out. It resulted in a wonderful sense of community in ''adversity" (we had emergency lighting and the bar maid brought out numerous candles) and made this one of the best Thanksgiving experiences I've ever had. And all my computer work (document editing) was local. All good! -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 02:42:24 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 02:42:24 -0600 Subject: Thanksgiving Day In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They seriously call them 'pubs' in Venezuela?? ;-) (Among many other things, I'm also thankful to live in a place where the odd power outage is unexpected, and may even constitute a special occasion.) On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 1:46 AM, Ian S. King wrote: > On Thu, Nov 24, 2016 at 4:34 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > > On 11/24/2016 01:51 PM, Murray McCullough wrote: > > > I wanted to wish all American readers of this list a very happy > > > Thanksgiving Day from a reader in Canada. Reading 'Classic > > > Computing' still plays an important part in my appreciation of the > > > role of computers from earlier years in why I still enjoy working > > > with computers. Happy computing. Murray :) > > > > > Murry, I'm sorry that we forgot to pre-empt your wishes on October 9. I > > did wish some of my Canadian friends happy returns for the day then, > > however. > > > > I'm a bit giddy right now--the pies are done, the other dishes are > > cooked and tastes and the bird's in the oven. Short of the dog getting > > into the feast, I think I'm home free. (You can tell who does the > > cooking in our house). > > > > I imagine that some have already hit the stores and others are settling > > down for an evening of football... > > > > --Chuck > > > > I had an unexpectedly delightful experience: I was at my local pub and the > power went out. It resulted in a wonderful sense of community in > ''adversity" (we had emergency lighting and the bar maid brought out > numerous candles) and made this one of the best Thanksgiving experiences > I've ever had. And all my computer work (document editing) was local. All > good! -- Ian > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 25 04:03:29 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 05:03:29 -0500 Subject: Turkey Day Scans: TELEX Message-ID: <3fc025.74a5022e.45696671@aol.com> These are very nice! thank you for posting them! do you have anything else twx, telex or teletype? Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 11/24/2016 10:52:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim, silent700 at gmail.com writes: I received another big pile of random documentation this week and these floated to the top and landed directly on my scanner: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/WesternUnion Circa 1968-9 Western Union TELEX brochures, rate charts and a little bit of ASR32 technical data. Really interesting stuff for fans of early data networks, as well as groovy graphic design! Enjoy... -j From abuse at cabal.org.uk Fri Nov 25 05:22:18 2016 From: abuse at cabal.org.uk (Peter Corlett) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:22:18 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161125112218.GA22037@mooli.org.uk> On Mon, Nov 21, 2016 at 01:07:41PM +0100, MG wrote: [...] > All the items are located in the Netherlands. I'll provide more information > and pictures on demand. Some of the storage kit looks worth a gander. Where in the Netherlands is this? I live in the backwaters of Zaandam. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 05:28:18 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (MG) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:28:18 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: <20161125112218.GA22037@mooli.org.uk> References: <20161125112218.GA22037@mooli.org.uk> Message-ID: <361ec4da-99c9-1ff7-088c-219f7b3804c7@gmail.com> Hello, Op 25-nov-2016 om 12:22 schreef Peter Corlett: > Some of the storage kit looks worth a gander. > > Where in the Netherlands is this? I live in the backwaters of Zaandam. The items are located in a residential area in Leiden (in the province of Zuid-Holland / South Holland). Kind regards, Marco From ajp166 at verizon.net Thu Nov 24 11:38:47 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 12:38:47 -0500 Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <3c9f3d85-2573-96e8-7ca6-f6f2d2f10702@verizon.net> As someone that has several Gmail and Verizon accounts my call is: AOL is often either put in junk or trash for all all. Often that includes Yahoo as well. I suspect its the general drift to better authentication to slow the junkmail and spoofed emails. This is why people use Gmail, it filters spam and trash like no other and by experience its reliable as any I've used. To be very blunt, AOL, Yahoo, Hotmail, are the top three considered junk at best and spam at worst on my systems. Valid email from any of those is an exception rather than the rule. FYI: my pet peve is everything is received twice! Allison On 11/24/2016 12:20 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Nov 23, 2016 11:05 PM, "John H. Reinhardt" > wrote: >> >> On 11/23/2016 8:00 PM, Eric Christopherson wrote: >>> On Wed, Nov 23, 2016, Michael Brutman wrote: >>>> Gmail routinely marks these emails as spam. And Gmail clearly says: " > It >>>> has a from address in aol.com but has failed aol.com's required tests > for >>>> authentication." >>>> >>>> Digging deeper into the header one finds: >>>> >>>> "Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >>>> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >>>> sender) client-ip=199.188.211.196; >>>> Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; >>>> dkim=neutral (body hash did not verify) header.i=@mx.aol.com; >>>> spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of >>>> cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org designates 199.188.211.196 as permitted >>>> sender) smtp.mailfrom=cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org; >>>> dmarc=fail (p=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=aol.com" >>>> >>>> >>>> I'm no expert on dmarc, but that looks to be the source of the pain. >>> >>> Do we have any evidence that his messages are affecting the rest of us, >>> though? >>> >> I get disabled regularly. My address is at Yahoo. Currently I'm sitting > at 2.0 out of 5.0 for my bounce score. > > What's a bounce score, and how do you know what yours is and what the limit > is? Does classiccmp specify 5.0, or Yahoo, or what? > >> The previous disabled messages came at: >> >> 11/20/2016 >> 11/06/2016 >> 10/25/2016 >> 10/18/2016 >> 10/13/2016 >> 10/05/2016 >> 09/26/2016 >> 09/10/2016 >> 08/23/2016 >> 08/11/2016 >> 08/06/2016 >> 08/01/2016 >> 07/19/2016 >> 07/10/2016 >> 07/01/2016 >> >> A fairly uneven distribution. None repeating sooner than 5 days and > sometimes taking up to 18 days before hitting the 5.0 bounce limit. >> I was thinking of changing my email to another provider even though I've > had this one for at least 12 years. But if it's because of a configuration > problem, then other providers may react the same way so will it do any good? >> John H. Reinhardt From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Nov 24 12:51:31 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 10:51:31 -0800 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... Message-ID: VME based systems ? I've been given a VME chassis and want to build up a 68K based system for fun. HP 9000/3xx ? I think I asked this one before. But can't find searching the archives or my email. TIA -pete From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 25 10:46:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:46:19 -0800 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there are none that I know of. I've been doing a lot of work this year archiving VME information and firmware. there's not a lot out there for software, though beyond NetBSD HP 9000/300 documentation is at the HP Museum and under hp/9000_300 on bitsavers On 11/24/16 10:51 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > VME based systems ? I've been given a VME chassis and want to build up a > 68K based system for fun. > > HP 9000/3xx ? I think I asked this one before. But can't find searching the > archives or my email. > > TIA > > -pete > From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Nov 25 10:46:19 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:46:19 -0800 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: there are none that I know of. I've been doing a lot of work this year archiving VME information and firmware. there's not a lot out there for software, though beyond NetBSD HP 9000/300 documentation is at the HP Museum and under hp/9000_300 on bitsavers On 11/24/16 10:51 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > VME based systems ? I've been given a VME chassis and want to build up a > 68K based system for fun. > > HP 9000/3xx ? I think I asked this one before. But can't find searching the > archives or my email. > > TIA > > -pete > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Fri Nov 25 10:48:54 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 11:48:54 -0500 (EST) Subject: Membership disabled due to bounces In-Reply-To: <3c9f3d85-2573-96e8-7ca6-f6f2d2f10702@verizon.net> References: <670DCA57-C9C3-4A6D-8C05-19B34C316180@gmail.com> <20161124010010.GC1200@gmail.com> <97e5a1be-dff7-20f2-119a-959537f5520d@yahoo.com> <3c9f3d85-2573-96e8-7ca6-f6f2d2f10702@verizon.net> Message-ID: <201611251648.LAA09060@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > This is why people use Gmail, it filters spam and trash like no other Maybe for the people whose eyeballs it's selling. My view as someone who doesn't use it is that it's a bulletproof spammer drop-box hosting service crossed with a spam spewer. Their offloading the costs of their antisocial behaviour onto the rest of the net are one reason I will have nothing to do with their mail. (The other major reason is their outright spamming me.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 25 11:50:06 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 11:50:06 -0600 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <583879CE.5080409@pico-systems.com> By the way, we still use VME for data acquisition systems in nuclear research. We don't usually have a CPU in there, they are too slow. Everything is run with FPGAs, and it is possible to have data flowing at pretty close to the maximum VME word rate. We have a module that sucks up the words from various devices and packs them into buffers to send via USB. Jon From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 13:59:15 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 14:59:15 -0500 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? Message-ID: I have purchased 3 large SGi crimson computers and need them shipped from california to florida. I am uncertain of a good service to use for the task, i need the machines to be packaged up / put on a pallet at the pickup location, the owner is unable to do so. Usualy I would use YRC freight, however they do not offer the service to package the machines on site. Hopefully someone here can make a suggestion. Ive never dealt with shipping something this large before. I did have a Microvax 3800 shipped with YRC freight, however that was purchased through a business and was packaged before shipping. The crimsons will be a bit larger. I have the machines paid for, but figuring out the shipping has had me a bit stumped for the past few days. --Devin From mnusa2 at hotmail.com Fri Nov 25 13:23:04 2016 From: mnusa2 at hotmail.com (Matti Nummi) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:23:04 +0200 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... Message-ID: Pete, You can start with www.m88k.com You can email me for information. BR Matti On 11/24/16 10:51 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > VME based systems ? I've been given a VME chassis and want to build up a > 68K based system for fun. > > HP 9000/3xx ? I think I asked this one before. But can't find searching the > archives or my email. > > TIA > > -pete > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 13:39:18 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 14:39:18 -0500 Subject: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... (Al Kossow) Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:46:19 -0800 > From: Al Kossow > Subject: Re: Are there mailing lists or groups just tor ... > > There are none that I know of. I've been doing a lot of work this year > archiving > VME information and firmware. > > there's not a lot out there for software, though beyond NetBSD > > On 11/24/16 10:51 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > > VME based systems ? I've been given a VME chassis and want to build up a > > 68K based system for fun. > > > > TIA > > > > -pete > My employer is a member of VITA, the group that does the VME standards. I am working with VITA management to get members to send AL documentation on older VME products, and hopefully software too. I am sure that there are plenty of people on this list that would help you get a VME system running. Early Sun systems were VME based, and their documentation on the VMEbus is very good. Michael Thompson From jwsmail at jwsss.com Fri Nov 25 15:04:17 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 13:04:17 -0800 Subject: Data General CS 200n (Ebay warning) Message-ID: <14ca7110-e71d-9f8e-d4a3-8453d844e34a@jwsss.com> This system has several tape drives, and possibly some Eclipse era processor. If someone knows what this is they may want to rescue it. There are three what appear to be 6' racks with various tape devices, and a desk high cabinet. There are two 3 or so switch front panels, one on one of the 6' racks, and one on the low boy rack, may be a simple reset run power type panel for each. Lincoln Nebraska 4822.33 bucks Data-General-Model-CS-Series-200n-Commercial-Series-Terminal-Controller-Vintage/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/282212431051 No interest, just reporting. May want to ask the vendor if there is more to this, and whether a possible system was scrapped. If so explain to them that they have scrap iron, and should have sold the system cabinets for real money. thanks Jim From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Nov 25 17:49:16 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 18:49:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? Message-ID: <20161125234916.DA77118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Devin Davison > I am uncertain of a good service to use for the task, i need the > machines to be packaged up / put on a pallet at the pickup location I have had good luck with PakMail (http://www.pakmail.com/); I've had them ship a couple of 6' racks (one from Arizona, one from Toronto), and been very happy with the results. The shipping cost in the Arizona case may not have been the absolute lowest possible I could have secured had I been on the spot, looking around, but.. I wasn't on the spot, looking around; and it was pretty reasonable (I've shipped a number of large items from the West Coast, so I think I'm reasonably well calibrated). And they went to the person's house, picked the thing up, put it on a pallet, and shipped it. A tip for keeping costs down when shipping via freight (i.e. on a pallet, which generally is a key thing to do to keep costs down) to one's house (i.e. not a place with a loading dock): if you have a vehicle which can hold the item(s), have it/them delivered to the nearest freight terminal, not the house, and go pick it up. That way, they won't have to roll a truck with a lift-gate to your house, which is an extra cost. Every line I've ever used (SAIA, FedEx Freight, etc) were happy, when one arrives to pick it up, to dump the shipment in their yard, and let one take everthing off the pallet and load it all into your vehicle. (But check with your local terminal first, to make sure they're OK with it. And check the weather prediction to pick the day to go get it! :-) And you generally save a couple of days, too. I have discovered that a Ford Taurus wagon nicely holds an H960 6'x19" rack (I joked that the car must have been designed by someone who collects old gear :-), so I have been able to pick up a shipment consisting of _two_ H960's this way: one inside, and one on the roof rack. With only one person, one has to remove the heavy units first, and put them in the car separately, but it can be done. Noel From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Nov 25 21:24:30 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:24:30 -0600 Subject: Turkey Day Scans: TELEX In-Reply-To: <3fc025.74a5022e.45696671@aol.com> References: <3fc025.74a5022e.45696671@aol.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:03 AM, wrote: > These are very nice! thank you for posting them! > do you have anything else twx, telex or teletype? Not that I've run across yet. There are some more terminal brochures to come, however. Informer, among others. j From elson at pico-systems.com Fri Nov 25 21:57:17 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 21:57:17 -0600 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? In-Reply-To: <20161125234916.DA77118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161125234916.DA77118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <5839081D.3000201@pico-systems.com> On 11/25/2016 05:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I have discovered that a Ford Taurus wagon nicely holds an H960 6'x19" rack > (I joked that the car must have been designed by someone who collects old > gear :-), so I have been able to pick up a shipment consisting of _two_ > H960's this way: one inside, and one on the roof rack. With only one person, > one has to remove the heavy units first, and put them in the car separately, > but it can be done. > No, it was designed by a guy whose wife plays harp in the symphony. My cousin does that, and the Taurus from years ago was the only station wagon that would fit it. The others came up short by just one inch! Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Nov 25 22:31:08 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 23:31:08 -0500 Subject: Turkey Day Scans: TELEX Message-ID: well that is good stuff and your scan were well done many thanks ! Ed# In a message dated 11/25/2016 8:24:55 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 4:03 AM, wrote: > These are very nice! thank you for posting them! > do you have anything else twx, telex or teletype? Not that I've run across yet. There are some more terminal brochures to come, however. Informer, among others. j From isking at uw.edu Sat Nov 26 00:15:11 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 25 Nov 2016 22:15:11 -0800 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: <361ec4da-99c9-1ff7-088c-219f7b3804c7@gmail.com> References: <20161125112218.GA22037@mooli.org.uk> <361ec4da-99c9-1ff7-088c-219f7b3804c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 3:28 AM, MG wrote: > Hello, > > Op 25-nov-2016 om 12:22 schreef Peter Corlett: > >> Some of the storage kit looks worth a gander. >> >> Where in the Netherlands is this? I live in the backwaters of Zaandam. >> > > The items are located in a residential area in Leiden (in the province of > Zuid-Holland / South > I was just in Leiden last week! Of course, I was flying, so I would have been constrained on what I could carry.... -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From pye at mactec.com.au Sat Nov 26 00:26:43 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 16:26:43 +1000 Subject: Macintosh Portable Message-ID: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I know that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. I did have have a PB100 power supply that I used with mine, but (unfortunately) no longer have it. Also (if it still works) what is the easiest way to image the old Conner SCSI drive? It doesn?t appear to have a standard connector. I have googled this, but didn?t come up with anything useful. Thanks, Chris... From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Nov 26 03:39:50 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 04:39:50 -0500 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? Message-ID: <1107d9.34772101.456ab266@aol.com> we liked our winstar that was on a taurus wagon chassis I was told... wish we still had it hauled a lot of stuff in it! currently have a subaru forester... unfortunately is is not as much volume as the winstar with the seats out! I hear the outback has a longer cargo area.Ed# In a message dated 11/25/2016 8:57:21 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, elson at pico-systems.com writes: On 11/25/2016 05:49 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > I have discovered that a Ford Taurus wagon nicely holds an H960 6'x19" rack > (I joked that the car must have been designed by someone who collects old > gear :-), so I have been able to pick up a shipment consisting of _two_ > H960's this way: one inside, and one on the roof rack. With only one person, > one has to remove the heavy units first, and put them in the car separately, > but it can be done. > No, it was designed by a guy whose wife plays harp in the symphony. My cousin does that, and the Taurus from years ago was the only station wagon that would fit it. The others came up short by just one inch! Jon From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 03:52:35 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 03:52:35 -0600 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: I can't answer your question about PSU polarity, but I do have some experience with the Mac Portable hard drive. I had to 'make' a replacement drive for one, almost 20 years ago now.. so forgive me if there are errors in this! You're correct about the drive connector, it's one of those maddening proprietary things that Apple was and still is prone to doing. If I recall, the drive itself uses the standard SCSI interface, but the stock drive has a permanently attached cable with its own pinout. And I think the drive cable carries both data and power. If you can find the +correct+ 20 or 40MB (?) Conner hard disk, you can make a cable that allows you to use one as a replacement for the stock drive, which is very prone to failure. Apparently, the stock drive is a low-power version of the otherwise identical Conner drives available at that time. The stock drive has a red label, and if I recall, the similar but not-low-power drive has a green label. So the common green-label drive works fine, but it will consume more battery than the special low-power version. Point is, if it still exists, find the web page that shows how to make & wire the adapter cable - and that should give you enough info to create a data & power cable that will allow you to read the stock disk. There was also some talk, at the time, that it was possible to transfer the complete circuit board, with cable, to one of the green label drives.. and have it work. Of course, this would only work if the drive had a physical failure, rather than a failure with the board electronics. In my case, I had to wire up a special cable.. it took a couple hrs, but worked fine. On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 12:26 AM, Chris Pye wrote: > Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I know > that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. > > I did have have a PB100 power supply that I used with mine, but > (unfortunately) no longer have it. > > Also (if it still works) what is the easiest way to image the old Conner > SCSI drive? It doesn?t appear to have a standard connector. > > I have googled this, but didn?t come up with anything useful. > > > Thanks, > Chris... > > > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 04:16:23 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 08:16:23 -0200 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: Chris, is it a 40 pin cable? Enviado do meu Tele-Movel Em 26/11/2016 04:26, "Chris Pye" escreveu: > Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I know > that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. > > I did have have a PB100 power supply that I used with mine, but > (unfortunately) no longer have it. > > Also (if it still works) what is the easiest way to image the old Conner > SCSI drive? It doesn?t appear to have a standard connector. > > I have googled this, but didn?t come up with anything useful. > > > Thanks, > Chris... > > > > From brian at marstella.net Sat Nov 26 06:20:49 2016 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 07:20:49 -0500 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: Chris, I remembered seeing this post from a couple of years ago when I was looking at a Mac Portable. I ended up not buying it so I can't speak for whether this will work, but it might point in the right direction. See especially the links around the 4th post in the thread as it shows a 34 pin converter method. Regards, Brian. On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 5:16 AM, Alexandre Souza < alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com> wrote: > Chris, is it a 40 pin cable? > > Enviado do meu Tele-Movel > > Em 26/11/2016 04:26, "Chris Pye" escreveu: > > > Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I > know > > that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. > > > > I did have have a PB100 power supply that I used with mine, but > > (unfortunately) no longer have it. > > > > Also (if it still works) what is the easiest way to image the old Conner > > SCSI drive? It doesn?t appear to have a standard connector. > > > > I have googled this, but didn?t come up with anything useful. > > > > > > Thanks, > > Chris... > > > > > > > > > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sat Nov 26 07:03:55 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 14:03:55 +0100 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161126130354.GB2578@Update.UU.SE> Congratulations! Where does one find _three_ Crimsons these days? I would consider going there myself to pack them,, Crimsons are somewhate fragile. Not extremely so, like some SGI machines, but there are some places you shouldn't lift. Perhaps you could find an SGI collector in california to help you in exchange for one of them. Check out nekochan. /P On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 02:59:15PM -0500, devin davison wrote: > I have purchased 3 large SGi crimson computers and need them shipped from > california to florida. I am uncertain of a good service to use for the > task, i need the machines to be packaged up / put on a pallet at the pickup > location, the owner is unable to do so. Usualy I would use YRC freight, > however they do not offer the service to package the machines on site. > > Hopefully someone here can make a suggestion. Ive never dealt with shipping > something this large before. I did have a Microvax 3800 shipped with YRC > freight, however that was purchased through a business and was packaged > before shipping. The crimsons will be a bit larger. > > I have the machines paid for, but figuring out the shipping has had me a > bit stumped for the past few days. > > --Devin From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Nov 26 08:03:21 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 09:03:21 -0500 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? In-Reply-To: <20161125234916.DA77118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161125234916.DA77118C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161126140321.GH10717@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa [161125 18:49]: [..SNIP..] > I have had good luck with PakMail (http://www.pakmail.com/); I've had them > ship a couple of 6' racks (one from Arizona, one from Toronto), and been very > happy with the results. [..SNIP..] Hi Noel, Did you have any issues with customs bringing in the racked equipment from Toronto? I've had so much trouble in the past that I've had to use a customs broker (this was a container from England.) They wanted prices and state of origin for all the pieces and pulled everything out of the container for inspection twice (which I paid for including transport to and from the inspection station of course.) For the OP, I've had good success shipping racks and an a keypunch with integrated table, both unpalleted, via uShip. The key to use them is specify everything in great detail (covered, unpalleted, etc) up front. Both times the carrier knew it was unpalleted computer equipment and did a good job using blankets and strapping them into the trucks. I did have help preparing the racks (getting cables all inside the racks and shrink wrapping them to keep things from sliding out, thanks Steve!) The other carrier did a great job picking up the keypunch (the seller was very happy with them) and delivering. They mostly ship antiques and pianos and other items that can be fragile and not palleted and so were a good choice for shipping vintage computer equipment.) Both were very competitively priced in my experience. Thanks, Todd From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Nov 26 10:05:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:05:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? Message-ID: <20161126160509.75FC718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Todd Goodman > Did you have any issues with customs bringing in the racked equipment > from Toronto? No; it just sailed right through. The fact that it was Canada->US probably helped. IIRC PakMail in Toronto picked a customs broker - or maybe we were talking about doing that, and he decided we needn't bother? I forget now. > Both times the carrier knew it was unpalleted computer equipment and > did a good job using blankets and strapping them into the trucks. > ... > The other carrier did a great job .. They mostly ship antiques and > pianos and other items that can be fragile and not palleted > ... > Both were very competitively priced in my experience. Sounds like these were both so-called 'white glove' shippers, who do things like furniture, etc. Those are also an option, but in my experience, somewhat more expensive: when I was shipping a pair of -11/84's from California to Virginia, the shipping cost just about doubled when I had to switch from freight to 'white glove' for them. Hence my advice to palletize stuff, and send it freight (at least for cross-continent, where the difference really adds up). Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 26 11:28:06 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:28:06 -0500 (EST) Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Back in October, I wrote that I had two boxes of magnetic media that were not worth - to me - the space they were taking up. This drew a note from one Rob Jarratt, saying > I think the Ultrix and FORTRAN tapes have got to be worth saving > whatever happens, and possibly the MicroVMS ones too, [...]. [...] > please don't get rid of those particular media without giving someone > the opportunity to image them. I haven't heard from anyone, and I can't really hang onto these indefinitely in the hope that a nebulous "someone" will show up to image them. As I wrote in October, I didn't have a system that could image any of them, and that hasn't changed since then. I know there are at least a few of us in/near Ottawa; if any of them read this and are willing to help out, possibly by imaging the tapes, possibly by just taking over keeping them, possibly something else, I'd love to hear about it. I too think it would be good to preserve the data...BUT not to the extent of overriding my need to pare back the space my *ahem* "collection" is occupying. I think the end of the year is about as long as I can wait without hearing anything. Given email's unreliability these days, I'd also like to leave more than just email as a way of getting hold of me. +1-613-482-0910 should either reach me or take a message. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From tsg at bonedaddy.net Sat Nov 26 11:34:49 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:34:49 -0500 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? In-Reply-To: <20161126160509.75FC718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161126160509.75FC718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161126173449.GK10717@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Noel Chiappa [161126 11:05]: > > From: Todd Goodman > > > Did you have any issues with customs bringing in the racked equipment > > from Toronto? > > No; it just sailed right through. The fact that it was Canada->US probably > helped. Well, I've had problems with US Customs coming back into the US from Canada as well (not to mention from the US into Canada but that wasn't about computer equipment.) > > IIRC PakMail in Toronto picked a customs broker - or maybe we were talking > about doing that, and he decided we needn't bother? I forget now. That's good to know! > > > > Both times the carrier knew it was unpalleted computer equipment and > > did a good job using blankets and strapping them into the trucks. > > ... > > The other carrier did a great job .. They mostly ship antiques and > > pianos and other items that can be fragile and not palleted > > ... > > Both were very competitively priced in my experience. > > Sounds like these were both so-called 'white glove' shippers, who do things > like furniture, etc. Yes indeed. > > Those are also an option, but in my experience, somewhat more expensive: when > I was shipping a pair of -11/84's from California to Virginia, the shipping > cost just about doubled when I had to switch from freight to 'white glove' for > them. Hence my advice to palletize stuff, and send it freight (at least for > cross-continent, where the difference really adds up). These were on uShip where the carriers bid on your shipment so the prices were really very reasonable compared to even regular LTL shipping. Todd > > Noel From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Nov 26 11:41:04 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:41:04 -0000 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 26 November 2016 17:28 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Magnetic media FTGH! > > Back in October, I wrote that I had two boxes of magnetic media that were > not worth - to me - the space they were taking up. > > This drew a note from one Rob Jarratt, saying > > > I think the Ultrix and FORTRAN tapes have got to be worth saving > > whatever happens, and possibly the MicroVMS ones too, [...]. [...] > > please don't get rid of those particular media without giving someone > > the opportunity to image them. > > I haven't heard from anyone, and I can't really hang onto these indefinitely in > the hope that a nebulous "someone" will show up to image them. As I wrote > in October, I didn't have a system that could image any of them, and that > hasn't changed since then. > > I know there are at least a few of us in/near Ottawa; if any of them read this > and are willing to help out, possibly by imaging the tapes, possibly by just > taking over keeping them, possibly something else, I'd love to hear about it. I > too think it would be good to preserve the data...BUT not to the extent of > overriding my need to pare back the space my *ahem* "collection" is > occupying. I think the end of the year is about as long as I can wait without > hearing anything. > > Given email's unreliability these days, I'd also like to leave more than just > email as a way of getting hold of me. +1-613-482-0910 should either reach > me or take a message. > That was me replying. I have the drives to read TK50 (a hazardous and unreliable process these days), not sure about the others. The trouble is I am in the UK, I know you are reluctant to ship, and *I* am reluctant to pay a lot for shipping across the pond. However, if you don't get any takers, can we discuss the option of sending them to me? Regards Rob From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 11:56:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:56:53 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 Message-ID: Hi all...I am hoping there is someone here who has an 11/40 or 11/35 and a M9312 ROM terminator card. I'd like to know how you have yours jumpered. I took photos of the jumpers installed in my M9312: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/M9312/ Here is the page from the manual that describes jumpers per UNIBUS system type: http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/M9312/M9312_Jumper-configurations.JPG 1) Yes or no - Did I correctly identify the location of W8? 2) Yes or no - Should W8 be in for am 11 40/25/10/05 or is the /40 special? Here is the issue....when I jumper W8 the CPU can do very little and I cannot activate the CONSOLE ROM. I put in posts into what I believe is W8 so I can switch back and forth without having to re-solder. With W8 out the system works better, and I can at least get to the CONSOLE prompt. Looking for opinions as to whether my card is correctly configured. I am trying to determine why I can't bootstrap and run a TU58 nor RL11, yet I can load and run BASIC just fine. I think I may have a UNIBUS problem OR a CPU card problem, but I can't load XXDP either to determine for sure. There are more problems, I can't bootstrap the RL11 nor TU58 manually either, I am working through everything CPU and UNIBUS too. Is there a complete XXDP tape that I can download from PDPGUI? I found TU58 image but I can't get the TU58em emulator to work yet. If I could just figure out why I can load BASIC and not RL02 RT11 I'd make my day. Thanks Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 11:58:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:58:44 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > 2) Yes or no - Should W8 be in for am 11 40/25/10/05 or is the /40 > special? > > > TYPO - I mean "11 40/35/10/05" or is the /40 special? b From cmhanson at eschatologist.net Sat Nov 26 14:57:13 2016 From: cmhanson at eschatologist.net (Chris Hanson) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 12:57:13 -0800 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> On Nov 26, 2016, at 1:52 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > > You're correct about the drive connector, it's one of those maddening > proprietary things that Apple was and still is prone to doing. If I recall, > the drive itself uses the standard SCSI interface, but the stock drive has > a permanently attached cable with its own pinout. And I think the drive > cable carries both data and power. Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were really standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could create compatible hardware. It?s just a 34-pin connector carrying both SCSI signal and power. Details are on page 5-31 (Chapter 5: Hardware) of the Macintosh Portable Developer Note, Table 5-6: SCSI Internal Connector Pinout. It should be simple to make an adapter for a SCSI2SD or equivalent. -- Chris From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Nov 26 15:31:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 13:31:08 -0800 Subject: A good shipping service for large computers? In-Reply-To: <20161126160509.75FC718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161126160509.75FC718C093@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <41c90bc7-792a-362a-34bd-c8e0dcd887ed@jwsss.com> On 11/26/2016 8:05 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > No; it just sailed right through. The fact that it was Canada->US probably > helped. The US Customs can be jerks. But Made in USA on the unit trumped the BS for me twice. It wasn't obvious in both cases, but once I showed it on the device the foolishness stopped. I think our Canadian friends had much more trouble even post NAFTA than I had. The old used items I buy have all been clearly US origin or manufacture and they do sail thru. thanks Jim From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Nov 26 18:24:51 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 19:24:51 -0500 (EST) Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Back in October, I wrote that I had two boxes of magnetic media that >> were not worth - to me - the space they were taking up. >> This drew a note from one Rob Jarratt, [...] > That was me replying. I have the drives to read TK50 (a hazardous and > unreliable process these days), not sure about the others. The > trouble is I am in the UK, I know you are reluctant to ship, and *I* > am reluctant to pay a lot for shipping across the pond. Yes, that was what I thought the major barrier to just dropping them on you was. > However, if you don't get any takers, can we discuss the option of > sending them to me? Sure. I'll send you mail offlist; this is somewhat in the nature of a heads-up, so if you don't get the offlist mail you'll know something's wrong. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From drlegendre at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 21:04:57 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 21:04:57 -0600 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Chris, "Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were really standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could create compatible hardware." I wasn't aware that Apple had published the specs for that connector, so you're correct that it's not proprietary in the strongest sense of the term (trade secret). It would have been more correct to say it was an implementation unique to Apple, and to the Mac Portable specifically - or at least so far as I've ever known. Do you know of any other product that used the odd 34-pin SCSI data & power connector? Or of any 3rd party drives ever made to replace the stock Conner? I'm not aware that either case is true.. On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Chris Hanson wrote: > On Nov 26, 2016, at 1:52 AM, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > You're correct about the drive connector, it's one of those maddening > > proprietary things that Apple was and still is prone to doing. If I > recall, > > the drive itself uses the standard SCSI interface, but the stock drive > has > > a permanently attached cable with its own pinout. And I think the drive > > cable carries both data and power. > > Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were > really standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could > create compatible hardware. > > It?s just a 34-pin connector carrying both SCSI signal and power. Details > are on page 5-31 (Chapter 5: Hardware) of the Macintosh Portable Developer > Note, Table 5-6: SCSI Internal Connector Pinout. It should be simple to > make an adapter for a SCSI2SD or equivalent. > > -- Chris > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 22:39:01 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 21:39:01 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? Message-ID: Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close to that. From glen.slick at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 22:55:29 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 20:55:29 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to > disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex > ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the > SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? > The Andromeda WDC11 MFM floppy/hard disk controller uses an 8X305. It emulates an RX02, and an RK05 or RL01/RL02 or RP02. I have one. I'm not sure which flavor it is. I've never gotten around to trying to use it. From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 01:10:33 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:10:33 +0000 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to > disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex > ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the > SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? > It will take me some time to check, but I seem to remember an ISA card, not a disk controller, with one on. Possibly a 3720-type interface (I think there was a single BNC socket on the bracket, and it's not ethernet). There's an 8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this list. -tony From cclist at sydex.com Sun Nov 27 01:11:56 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 23:11:56 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8f22f05b-6ac2-7a97-c2aa-20d967c08abd@sydex.com> On 11/26/2016 08:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to > disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the > Zendex ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products > used the SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? My Durango 900 series machine uses one for the hard disk controller on what is about the size of an S100 card, but a little smaller. It fits in the expansion area just in back of the floppy drives and drives an ST506-interface drive. The previous model used a Shugart SA4000 external hard drive and a card with an Intel 8291 and 8292 to implement a GPIB link. The controller itself is full of TTL and matches the footprint of the SA4000. Microsystems Consultant in Sunnyvale designed it. There was a floppy controller in the Signetics Bipolar 8X300 line. It's in the Signetics Bipolar Microcomputer databook. --Chuck From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 27 01:51:26 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:51:26 -0000 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <065001d24883$0e3b2b00$2ab18100$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 27 November 2016 00:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Magnetic media FTGH! > > >> Back in October, I wrote that I had two boxes of magnetic media that > >> were not worth - to me - the space they were taking up. > > >> This drew a note from one Rob Jarratt, [...] > > > That was me replying. I have the drives to read TK50 (a hazardous and > > unreliable process these days), not sure about the others. The > > trouble is I am in the UK, I know you are reluctant to ship, and *I* > > am reluctant to pay a lot for shipping across the pond. > > Yes, that was what I thought the major barrier to just dropping them on you > was. > > > However, if you don't get any takers, can we discuss the option of > > sending them to me? > > Sure. I'll send you mail offlist; this is somewhat in the nature of a heads-up, > so if you don't get the offlist mail you'll know something's wrong. > I got the offlist email and have sent a reply. Let's see whether you get it or not. Regards Rob From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 27 01:52:37 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:52:37 -0000 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <065101d24883$38eff010$aacfd030$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 27 November 2016 00:25 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Magnetic media FTGH! > > >> Back in October, I wrote that I had two boxes of magnetic media that > >> were not worth - to me - the space they were taking up. > > >> This drew a note from one Rob Jarratt, [...] > > > That was me replying. I have the drives to read TK50 (a hazardous and > > unreliable process these days), not sure about the others. The > > trouble is I am in the UK, I know you are reluctant to ship, and *I* > > am reluctant to pay a lot for shipping across the pond. > > Yes, that was what I thought the major barrier to just dropping them on you > was Any idea of weight and dimensions? Thanks Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 27 02:07:00 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 08:07:00 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - PDP-8/L Message-ID: <409a7b44-bd36-e34c-17d1-856c224bd919@btinternet.com> Hi Guys In addition to good stocks of PDP-8 panels as below I have artwork ready to produce PDP-8/L panels. In order to gauge the size of the first batch please indicate your interest. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Sun Nov 27 02:48:36 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:48:36 +0100 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 27.11.2016 08:10, Tony Duell wrote: > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:39 AM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to >> disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex >> ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the >> SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? >> > It will take me some time to check, but I seem to remember an ISA card, > not a disk controller, with one on. Possibly a 3720-type interface (I > think there > was a single BNC socket on the bracket, and it's not ethernet). > > There's an 8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the > Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this > list. Why too obscure ? The Philips P851 mini also uses a 8X300 / 8X330 combo for floppy & HD controller. Picture of this controller and dumps of proms are on : ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 If there is a chance to have a good pic of the P851 frontpanel I would appriciate it ! Too bad the 851 CPU uses ASIC for datapaths & control logic, so I cannot get this system up and running since it misses the control one. Jos From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 08:57:49 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 14:57:49 +0000 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:48 AM, jos wrote: > On 27.11.2016 08:10, Tony Duell wrote: >> There's an 8X300 on the hard disk controller (Philips X1215 drive) for the >> Philips P854 computer. But I suspect that is too obscure even for this >> list. > > > Why too obscure ? How many P854 machines have you come across :-) > > The Philips P851 mini also uses a 8X300 / 8X330 combo for floppy & HD > controller. The P851 and P854 use the same bus, essentially (the P854 has memory management logic in the CPU, so has more address lines) and many I/O boards will work in both machines. So I thought this was going to be the same board > Picture of this controller and dumps of proms are on : > > ftp://ftp.dreesen.ch/WD1001 But it isn't -- quite. I wonder if I have a very early version of it, as the only info i have on it is a photocopy of a hand-drawn block diagram. My P854 has the normal 2-board set for the floppy controller, I have an indentical one in the P851. Whether the hard disk controller could handle floppies, or whether that was added to later versions I don't know, I do have the same headers at the front edge of the board (the 50 pin one is for the X1215 hard drive which alas I don't have). > > If there is a chance to have a good pic of the P851 frontpanel I would > appriciate it ! I can take one. You do mean P851 and not P854 here, I assume (I have both). > > Too bad the 851 CPU uses ASIC for datapaths & control logic, so I cannot get > this system up and running since it misses the control one. The PLANET (PLA NETwork)? The one that handles microcode branches? I only have one spare (and 4 spare SPALUs (Scratch Pad and Arithmetic Logic Unit) -- the 4-bit bit-slice for the data path) and I really need to keep it as a spare for my P851. -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 09:12:41 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:12:41 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/26/16 11:10 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > It will take me some time to check, but I seem to remember an ISA card, > not a disk controller, with one on. Possibly a 3720-type interface (I > think there > was a single BNC socket on the bracket, and it's not ethernet). > IRMA card From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 09:14:50 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:14:50 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3251dfbc-3445-c9a1-93f0-ce5168c5f143@bitsavers.org> I'm starting to work through my board pile. The IRMA card is the only 8X305 I've seen lately that isn't in a disc controller. I have a bunch more disk controllers in the queue, mostly multibus, the ADC S-100 and some others. On 11/26/16 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to > disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex > ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the > SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? > > In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk > controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction > could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another > I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close > to that. > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 09:17:12 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:17:12 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <3251dfbc-3445-c9a1-93f0-ce5168c5f143@bitsavers.org> References: <3251dfbc-3445-c9a1-93f0-ce5168c5f143@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <149eb7dc-d599-7238-c12a-6bee2d301f3f@bitsavers.org> oh, and the Xerox 6085 disk controller with tags is high on my list to know the innards, especially the difference between the two known revisions On 11/27/16 7:14 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I'm starting to work through my board pile. > > The IRMA card is the only 8X305 I've seen lately that isn't in a disc controller. > > I have a bunch more disk controllers in the queue, mostly multibus, the ADC S-100 > and some others. > > On 11/26/16 8:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to >> disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex >> ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the >> SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? >> >> In the early to mid-1980s, the 8X300 was a good choice for hard disk >> controllers, because all instructions took 250ns, and a single instruction >> could read an I/O port or RAM location, shift and mask, and write another >> I/O port or RAM location. At the time, no MOS microprocessor was even close >> to that. >> > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 09:17:58 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:17:58 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <149eb7dc-d599-7238-c12a-6bee2d301f3f@bitsavers.org> References: <3251dfbc-3445-c9a1-93f0-ce5168c5f143@bitsavers.org> <149eb7dc-d599-7238-c12a-6bee2d301f3f@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <121b44cf-c7eb-5c97-6377-4571e6800d0d@bitsavers.org> the only thing known is they added an extra head for xt1140 support On 11/27/16 7:17 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > oh, and the Xerox 6085 disk controller with tags is high on my list to know the innards, > especially the difference between the two known revisions > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 09:20:59 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 07:20:59 -0800 Subject: 3000 series 33 Message-ID: <53fd3d90-7212-6d19-bb1a-f3e85313d904@bitsavers.org> http://www.cpushack.com/2016/11/26/hp-3000-series-33-16-bits-of-sapphire/ "Looking at the handdrawn schematic of the Series 33" ? Something Tony did? From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 09:23:51 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:23:51 +0000 Subject: 3000 series 33 In-Reply-To: <53fd3d90-7212-6d19-bb1a-f3e85313d904@bitsavers.org> References: <53fd3d90-7212-6d19-bb1a-f3e85313d904@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 3:20 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > http://www.cpushack.com/2016/11/26/hp-3000-series-33-16-bits-of-sapphire/ > > "Looking at the handdrawn schematic of the Series 33" > > ? > > Something Tony did? > Not me this time.... -tony From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 10:16:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 08:16:24 -0800 Subject: iRMX 86 booting in simulation Message-ID: <7ff5a147-a445-b6ad-37e3-ce0898294b66@bitsavers.org> http://forums.bannister.org/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=108017#Post108017 it would be really handy to have installation instructions for the 286 right now :-( From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 12:27:39 2016 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:27:39 +0000 Subject: Wanted for RSX-11M Plus 4.6: the DECnet install tapes Message-ID: Hi, I am trying to do a clean install of RSX-11MP 4.6 on simh. I have found the install magtapes on Bitsavers, and they work fine. However, trying to install DECnet, I found only 1 of the 2 (or 3) install tapes. What is missing is the decnet11mp46-deckit tape. The accompanying **netkit** tape is on Bitsavers, but not the **deckit** tape. So you cannot complete the install process... Does anyone have this tape? I know there's an installed simh *disk* image, I also know you can fix the problem with it. But there is just nothing like having a full, proper install process to come up with your own setup :) And it would be nice if the last version is preserved completely. Kind regards, Oscar. For reference: A. installation magtapes for RSX-11 M PLUS 4.6: 1. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11mplus/BB-J0830-01.M01_RSX11M+_V4.6_1999.tap 2. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11mplus/BB-J0830-01.L01_RSX11M+_V4.6_BRU_1999.tap B. installation magtapes for the accompanying DECnet 11mp46: 1. http://www.mirrorservice.org/sites/www.bitsavers.org/bits/DEC/pdp11/magtapes/rsx11mplus/decnet11mp46-netkit.tap 2. MISSING: the DECKIT tape. From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Nov 27 13:46:46 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 11:46:46 -0800 Subject: Bringing up a PDP-8e Message-ID: Hi folks, This is my first vintage computing project. I have a PDP-8/e with the following boards in this order. FRONT PANEL M8330 KK8E CPU Timing board (system clock), replaces M833 M8300 \ KK8E CPU Major registers M8310 / KK8E CPU Major register control M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control M849 SHIELD CORE1 \ CORE1 / CORE2 \ CORE2 / M8320 KK8E Bus loads Each core pair is 16KW. There are a bunch of other non-DEC boards (ECRM) that I have removed for the time being. You will notice that I have no serial board (yet. I have a line on one). I have cleaned up the machine, removed and clean out the foam, cleaned the card sockets and card edges, tested the power supply. I am ready for the next step. Next, I will put the boards back in and start testing. I am looking for some very simple programs that I can key in from the front panel to do some basic testing. I have found simple programs on the internet but they are all in assembler and I don't yet have the knowledge/tools to convert them to switch-enterable programs. For example, here are some good test programs but not directly enterable on the front panel (or at least I don't know how). http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/pdp8i/testprogs/index.html Can someone direct me to some simple sequence of switch settings to do some basic testing? Many thanks in advance Eugene W2HX PS. Here is more on the machine as received: http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/PDP-8e/ Also as you will find on the internet, the ECRM boards are from a company that produced electronic character recognition systems. From oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com Sun Nov 27 13:59:06 2016 From: oscar.vermeulen at hotmail.com (Oscar Vermeulen) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:59:06 +0000 Subject: Wanted for RSX-11M Plus 4.6: the DECnet install tapes Message-ID: Hi, Memo to self: the DECnet install tape image *is* complete, my know-how isn't... As someone showed me: .mou mu3:/for .bru /rew/dir mu3: VOL1. INSTALL NETKIT 25-JAN-99 16:04:05 VOL1. NETKIT NETKIT 25-JAN-99 16:04:15 VOL1. DECKIT DECKIT 25-JAN-99 16:05:33 VOL1. PREGENRL02 ENDNODEKIT 25-JAN-99 16:07:47 BRU - Completed Beg your pardon :) Kind regards, Oscar. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 14:03:33 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:03:33 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - PDP-8/L (Rod Smallwood) Message-ID: > > Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 08:07:00 +0000 > From: Rod Smallwood > Subject: Front Panels - PDP-8/L > > Hi Guys > > In addition to good stocks of PDP-8 panels as below I > have artwork ready to produce PDP-8/L > > panels. In order to gauge the size of the first batch please indicate > your interest. > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > -- > PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i > Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now How about making the overlay panel that goes at the top of DEC 19" racks? My PDP-8/e has the plastic part at the top of the cabinet, but the orange/yellow panel is missing. It probably uses the same colors as the 8/e front panel. -- Michael Thompson From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Sun Nov 27 15:02:40 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:02:40 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <27984E55-CA7D-4968-9CF3-7084217A6512@cs.ubc.ca> (Getting back to this after a couple days..) The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in tracing. I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14 (page 12-28) of the manual. Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V? It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label. The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) of CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC output would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the pattern for the +15V diode. As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but you might check the above and see where things stand. I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless be awkward for transport or trip. On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much. > > I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just like the original board. > > I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power supplies. > > I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering. I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask. > > If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets). > > thanks > M. > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. > > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. > > Yes -12v, sorry > > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which ones > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. > > Looking at: > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be truncated. > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of course the power supply schematic is missing. > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on the hpmuseum pages.) > > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - search the page for "DraftMaster" > > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. > > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, or even a zener > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry between there and the actual -12 output of the supply. > > - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. > - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the reg vs output. > - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the problem. > - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. > > > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 From paulkoning at comcast.net Sun Nov 27 15:18:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:18:40 -0500 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Nov 26, 2016, at 11:39 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Now that I have an 8X300 (etc.) disassembler, which I've used to > disassemble the Western Digital WD1000 and WD1001 firmware, and the Zendex > ZX-203 firmware, I've become curious as to what other products used the > SMS300/8X300/8X305. Does anyone know of any? The DEC Pro hard drive controller. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sun Nov 27 15:41:16 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:41:16 -0500 (EST) Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <065101d24883$38eff010$aacfd030$@ntlworld.com> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <065101d24883$38eff010$aacfd030$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <201611272141.QAA07901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >>> The trouble is I am in the UK, [...] >> Yes, that was what I thought the major barrier to just dropping them >> on you was [...] > Any idea of weight and dimensions? For the whole lot, well, "two paper boxes". I don't know whethe it works the same way on your side of the pond, but, over here, 8.5"x11" printer/copier paper comes in boxes that are approximately 9"x11.5"x17.5". I've got two such boxes, each approximately full. That, though, is, as I say, the whole lot. Just the tapes you listed, probably significantly less, but I haven't gone through and picked them out to see how much less. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Nov 27 15:44:15 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 21:44:15 +0000 Subject: Bringing up a PDP-8e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <31dcb75f-eaca-14cf-0551-6cd3bc094a91@btinternet.com> On 27/11/2016 19:46, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > This is my first vintage computing project. I have a PDP-8/e with the following boards in this order. > > FRONT PANEL > M8330 KK8E CPU Timing board (system clock), replaces M833 > M8300 \ KK8E CPU Major registers > M8310 / KK8E CPU Major register control > M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control > M849 SHIELD > CORE1 \ > CORE1 / > CORE2 \ > CORE2 / > M8320 KK8E Bus loads > > Each core pair is 16KW. There are a bunch of other non-DEC boards (ECRM) that I have removed for the time being. You will notice that I have no serial board (yet. I have a line on one). > > I have cleaned up the machine, removed and clean out the foam, cleaned the card sockets and card edges, tested the power supply. I am ready for the next step. > > Next, I will put the boards back in and start testing. I am looking for some very simple programs that I can key in from the front panel to do some basic testing. I have found simple programs on the internet but they are all in assembler and I don't yet have the knowledge/tools to convert them to switch-enterable programs. For example, here are some good test programs but not directly enterable on the front panel (or at least I don't know how). > http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/pdp8i/testprogs/index.html > > Can someone direct me to some simple sequence of switch settings to do some basic testing? > > Many thanks in advance > Eugene W2HX > PS. Here is more on the machine as received: > http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/PDP-8e/ > Also as you will find on the internet, the ECRM boards are from a company that produced electronic character recognition systems. > > > Hi Go to Bitsavers. Download the PDP-8/e full manual. All of the toggle in tests are there. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood G8DGR -- PDP-8/e PDP-8/f PDP-8/m PDP-8/i Front Panels ex Stock - Order Now From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 13:09:46 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:09:46 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I can take some pictures of the M9312 I have running in my 11/40 tonight if need be. The manual at http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf (page A-2) suggests that W8 should be IN. Can you describe how your system is configured (i.e. what's on the bus, what's in the CPU, etc?). Have you double-checked that the interrupt vectors for your SLUs are correctly configured? The console (and BASIC, IIRC) does not use interrupts for serial I/O and will work if the vector is misconfigured (I discovered this the hard way in my 11/05) but other things will not and will behave badly. I'd also suggest using PDP11GUI to load in diagnostics directly, this avoids needing to be able to boot XXDP... - Josh On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 9:58 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > > > > 2) Yes or no - Should W8 be in for am 11 40/25/10/05 or is the /40 > > special? > > > > > > > TYPO - I mean "11 40/35/10/05" or is the /40 special? > > b > From derschjo at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 13:16:44 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 11:16:44 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'll note that the W8 setting described on page A-2 seems to conflict with the description earlier in the manual (See section 2.8.3) which indicates it's only necessary for it to be IN if there is an address conflict (which is probably not the case). Leave W8 OUT. (Leaving W8 in will disable the console PROM). Sorry for the confusion... - Josh On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 11:09 AM, Josh Dersch wrote: > I can take some pictures of the M9312 I have running in my 11/40 tonight > if need be. The manual at http://bitsavers.informatik. > uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/unibus/M9312_TechRef.pdf (page A-2) suggests > that W8 should be IN. > > Can you describe how your system is configured (i.e. what's on the bus, > what's in the CPU, etc?). > > Have you double-checked that the interrupt vectors for your SLUs are > correctly configured? The console (and BASIC, IIRC) does not use > interrupts for serial I/O and will work if the vector is misconfigured (I > discovered this the hard way in my 11/05) but other things will not and > will behave badly. > > I'd also suggest using PDP11GUI to load in diagnostics directly, this > avoids needing to be able to boot XXDP... > > - Josh > > > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 9:58 AM, william degnan > wrote: > >> > >> > >> > 2) Yes or no - Should W8 be in for am 11 40/25/10/05 or is the /40 >> > special? >> > >> > >> > >> TYPO - I mean "11 40/35/10/05" or is the /40 special? >> >> b >> > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Nov 26 16:35:34 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 17:35:34 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Nov 26, 2016 2:16 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > I'll note that the W8 setting described on page A-2 seems to conflict with > the description earlier in the manual (See section 2.8.3) which indicates > it's only necessary for it to be IN if there is an address conflict (which > is probably not the case). Leave W8 OUT. (Leaving W8 in will disable the > console PROM). Sorry for the confusion... > > Thanks...I will leave out. The manual could be clearer. Bill From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 10:22:15 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 11:22:15 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 5:35 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Nov 26, 2016 2:16 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > > > I'll note that the W8 setting described on page A-2 seems to conflict > with > > the description earlier in the manual (See section 2.8.3) which indicates > > it's only necessary for it to be IN if there is an address conflict > (which > > is probably not the case). Leave W8 OUT. (Leaving W8 in will disable > the > > console PROM). Sorry for the confusion... > > > > > > Thanks...I will leave out. The manual could be clearer. > > Bill > Follow up - I don't think I have issues with my M9312, thanks for your help. There are a number of candidate issues with my 11/40 which are causing my system to not be able to initiate a bootstrap of the TU58 ROM using the M9312, or bootstrap manually by using the front panel. There is at least partial communication between the TU58 emulator (running on Comm port 3) of my PC, the M7856's jumpers *I think* are correct to serve as the serial card on the PDP 11/40 end. I have the LTC turned off. There is always more testing I can do, but I suspect my issues are not with the serial card. Taken holistically, I think there is a DMA UNIBUS issue somewhere. Just a hunch. If anyone knows of or would be willing to make an XXDP TAP image compatible with a 16K PDP 11 I can convert to download via PDPGUI. Given I also have issues initiating RL11 bootstrap (with known working equipment), I have to think I should focus on XXDP and somehow get it running using the means I know that works, a direct CONSOLE download into core RAM, like I do with BASIC. I have BASIC running in core at the moment, at least there's that. Best Bill From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 11:53:42 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 09:53:42 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/27/16 8:22 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Sat, Nov 26, 2016 at 5:35 PM, william degnan > wrote: > >> On Nov 26, 2016 2:16 PM, "Josh Dersch" wrote: >>> I'll note that the W8 setting described on page A-2 seems to conflict >> with >>> the description earlier in the manual (See section 2.8.3) which indicates >>> it's only necessary for it to be IN if there is an address conflict >> (which >>> is probably not the case). Leave W8 OUT. (Leaving W8 in will disable >> the >>> console PROM). Sorry for the confusion... >>> >>> >> Thanks...I will leave out. The manual could be clearer. >> >> Bill >> > Follow up - > I don't think I have issues with my M9312, thanks for your help. There > are a number of candidate issues with my 11/40 which are causing my system > to not be able to initiate a bootstrap of the TU58 ROM using the M9312, or > bootstrap manually by using the front panel. > > There is at least partial communication between the TU58 emulator (running > on Comm port 3) of my PC, the M7856's jumpers *I think* are correct to > serve as the serial card on the PDP 11/40 end. So you've verified that the vectors on both your SLUs are correctly set? > I have the LTC turned off. > There is always more testing I can do, but I suspect my issues are not with > the serial card. Taken holistically, I think there is a DMA UNIBUS issue > somewhere. Just a hunch. Can you elaborate on why you suspect this is the case? Can you describe your system in detail? > > If anyone knows of or would be willing to make an XXDP TAP image compatible > with a 16K PDP 11 I can convert to download via PDPGUI. PDP11GUI doesn't use TAP files. You can use PDP11GUI to load individual XXDP diagnostics into the PDP-11 without needing to boot XXDP at all. J?rg has provided a wonderful database of diagnostics here: http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database. Find the device you need to test and grab the diagnostic binaries, listings, and documentation and go to town. (See section 5 of http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/using-pdp-11-diagnostics/227-pdp-11-diagnostics-running-them to see how that's done.) > Given I also have > issues initiating RL11 bootstrap (with known working equipment), What issues are you having? Does it hang? Halt? How are you bootstrapping? I assume you know the RL11 and the RL02 and the pack involved are all known-working? - Josh > I have to > think I should focus on XXDP and somehow get it running using the means I > know that works, a direct CONSOLE download into core RAM, like I do with > BASIC. I have BASIC running in core at the moment, at least there's that. > > Best > > Bill > From spereira1952 at comcast.net Sun Nov 27 12:49:55 2016 From: spereira1952 at comcast.net (Stephen Pereira) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 13:49:55 -0500 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I am not certain exactly what you mean by polarity in this case, but I?m guessing that you are asking which contact is positive and which is negative. If that?s the case, the center socket is positive, and the outer jacket band is negative. I hope this helps. smp -- Stephen M. Pereira Bedford, NH 03110 KB1SXE > On Nov 27, 2016, at 1:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Sat, 26 Nov 2016 16:26:43 +1000 > From: Chris Pye > > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > > Subject: Macintosh Portable > Message-ID: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A at mactec.com.au > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > > Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I know that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. > > I did have have a PB100 power supply that I used with mine, but (unfortunately) no longer have it. > > Also (if it still works) what is the easiest way to image the old Conner SCSI drive? It doesn?t appear to have a standard connector. > > I have googled this, but didn?t come up with anything useful. > > > Thanks, > Chris... > > > From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Nov 27 17:00:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 15:00:38 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: have you seen a copy of the schematic anywhere? closest that has turned up is the Russian clone of it On 11/27/16 1:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > The DEC Pro hard drive controller. > > paul > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Nov 27 16:59:08 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 22:59:08 -0000 Subject: Magnetic media FTGH! In-Reply-To: <201611272141.QAA07901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201610081830.OAA16801@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <00d401d221a3$b0bcba30$12362e90$@ntlworld.com> <201611261728.MAA06251@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <053d01d2480c$42c74a10$c855de30$@ntlworld.com> <201611270024.TAA16629@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <065101d24883$38eff010$aacfd030$@ntlworld.com> <201611272141.QAA07901@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <009401d24901$dc5727e0$950577a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse > Sent: 27 November 2016 21:41 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Re: Magnetic media FTGH! > > >>> The trouble is I am in the UK, [...] > >> Yes, that was what I thought the major barrier to just dropping them > >> on you was [...] > > Any idea of weight and dimensions? > > For the whole lot, well, "two paper boxes". I don't know whethe it works the > same way on your side of the pond, but, over here, 8.5"x11" > printer/copier paper comes in boxes that are approximately 9"x11.5"x17.5". > I've got two such boxes, each approximately full. > > That, though, is, as I say, the whole lot. Just the tapes you listed, probably > significantly less, but I haven't gone through and picked them out to see how > much less. > I suppose I was thinking about the whole lot, because who knows what interesting things there might be. However, if that proves prohibitive then I will take the time to review your list and pick the ones that look to be the most important. But first I assume we want to see if you can find a local taker, right? Regards Rob From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 17:20:16 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 16:20:16 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 4:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > have you seen a copy of the schematic anywhere? > closest that has turned up is the Russian clone of it > The PROMs from the Russian clone are only slightly different than the Televideo and Radio Shack (8MB) WD1000 ROMs. There's no reason to think that they are different than the DEC PROMs, but without a dump of the DEC PROMs there is uncertainty. From w2hx at w2hx.com Sun Nov 27 21:04:33 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:04:33 -0800 Subject: OT: Looking for Jos Dreesen Message-ID: Sorry for the bandwidth. Looking for Jos Dreesen who back in 2005 mentioned on this list that he had documentation on the ECRM OCR system. Please contact me if you can. Thanks Eugene From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Nov 27 23:06:42 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:06:42 +1000 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <870C869F-6EB8-4A78-AC32-4C6BF195DE08@mactec.com.au> > On 28 Nov 2016, at 4:49 am, Stephen Pereira wrote: > > I am not certain exactly what you mean by polarity in this case, but I?m guessing that you are asking which contact is positive and which is negative. > If that?s the case, the center socket is positive, and the outer jacket band is negative. Thank you, that is exactly what I needed to know. From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Nov 27 23:20:25 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:20:25 +1000 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: > On 27 Nov 2016, at 6:57 am, Chris Hanson wrote: > > Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were really standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could create compatible hardware. > > It?s just a 34-pin connector carrying both SCSI signal and power. Details are on page 5-31 (Chapter 5: Hardware) of the Macintosh Portable Developer Note, Table 5-6: SCSI Internal Connector Pinout. It should be simple to make an adapter for a SCSI2SD or equivalent. Thank you, I think I have found the appropriate diagram and can make an adapter. http://antinode.info/mac/port_scsi.html Cheers, Chris... From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 23:31:52 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 23:31:52 -0600 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: Yep, that's exactly what you needed! I'll be very interested to hear how it works out. Do you plan to mount another conventional disk, or will you try a SCSI2SD type option? On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 11:20 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > > > On 27 Nov 2016, at 6:57 am, Chris Hanson > wrote: > > > > Not really proprietary, it was before tiny portable SCSI drives were > really standardized, and Apple published everything so third parties could > create compatible hardware. > > > > It?s just a 34-pin connector carrying both SCSI signal and power. > Details are on page 5-31 (Chapter 5: Hardware) of the Macintosh Portable > Developer Note, Table 5-6: SCSI Internal Connector Pinout. It should be > simple to make an adapter for a SCSI2SD or equivalent. > > > Thank you, I think I have found the appropriate diagram and can make an > adapter. > > http://antinode.info/mac/port_scsi.html > > Cheers, > Chris... From pye at mactec.com.au Sun Nov 27 23:40:00 2016 From: pye at mactec.com.au (Chris Pye) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:40:00 +1000 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> Message-ID: <729EC1D5-8D76-4958-9456-00243FB4B160@mactec.com.au> > On 28 Nov 2016, at 3:31 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > Yep, that's exactly what you needed! > > I'll be very interested to hear how it works out. Do you plan to mount > another conventional disk, or will you try a SCSI2SD type option? As far as I know, the old Conner SCSI drive should (might) still work. If so, I just want to image it for prosperity. If it?s dead I do have a SCSI2SD that I will try as a replacement. From drlegendre at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 23:59:50 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 23:59:50 -0600 Subject: Macintosh Portable In-Reply-To: <729EC1D5-8D76-4958-9456-00243FB4B160@mactec.com.au> References: <00D543B1-7E32-40DE-8829-91E3EBFCBF4A@mactec.com.au> <29E3E14A-D925-4C5C-A42B-A66996F08844@eschatologist.net> <729EC1D5-8D76-4958-9456-00243FB4B160@mactec.com.au> Message-ID: If that old Conner is still good, you're one of the lucky ones for sure.. We had to build a new disk for ours, and if I recall, you only need to load the correct version of standard MacOS (6.0.4?) and it will recognize the portable and install the correct software for it. There may also have been a special system extension (or two..) for the portable. The portable is effectively a Mac Plus, I think. You might already know all of this. On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 11:40 PM, Chris Pye wrote: > > > On 28 Nov 2016, at 3:31 pm, drlegendre . wrote: > > > > Yep, that's exactly what you needed! > > > > I'll be very interested to hear how it works out. Do you plan to mount > > another conventional disk, or will you try a SCSI2SD type option? > > As far as I know, the old Conner SCSI drive should (might) still work. If > so, I just want to image it for prosperity. > > If it?s dead I do have a SCSI2SD that I will try as a replacement. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Mon Nov 28 00:12:35 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 22:12:35 -0800 Subject: OT: Looking for Jos Dreesen (Lilith Emulator MIA) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/27/2016 7:04 PM, W2HX wrote: > Sorry for the bandwidth. Looking for Jos Dreesen who back in 2005 mentioned on this list that he had documentation on the ECRM OCR system. Please contact me if you can. > > Thanks > Eugene I gave a look for Jos for Eugene and discovered that all of the sources for his Lilith machine emulator were pointed at a dyndns address which is now dead. I grabbed the emulator and sources and have some version, but would like to see it hosted somewhere that it can be located. Hunted for "Lilith Emulator, emulith (with and without Dreesen)" and only found dead links. thanks Jim From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 18:28:40 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 19:28:40 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > >>> Follow up - >> I don't think I have issues with my M9312, thanks for your help. There >> are a number of candidate issues with my 11/40 which are causing my system >> to not be able to initiate a bootstrap of the TU58 ROM using the M9312, or >> bootstrap manually by using the front panel. >> >> There is at least partial communication between the TU58 emulator (running >> on Comm port 3) of my PC, the M7856's jumpers *I think* are correct to >> serve as the serial card on the PDP 11/40 end. >> > So you've verified that the vectors on both your SLUs are correctly set? > > I followed the settings found here: http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherls/comm/interface/dl11-w/dl11w-info.html > I have the LTC turned off. > > (S59 off / S510 on) > >> There is always more testing I can do, but I suspect my issues are not >> with >> the serial card. Taken holistically, I think there is a DMA UNIBUS issue >> somewhere. Just a hunch. >> > Can you elaborate on why you suspect this is the case? Can you describe > your system in detail? > > I have a CPU backplane populated as follows, I have checked the jumpers on the CPU cards to verify that they're correct to the options installed 1: empty 2: M7253 3: M7232 (1-4) M7237(5) 4: M7231 5: M7233 6: M7235 7: M7234 8: M7236 9: empty with GC CORE PLANES (2 slots 11-29 has only the first 16K populated.) 9/11: M981 (1-2) 11: M8293 (3-6) (start core plane) 12: M7259 (1-2) 13: G114 14: H217C 15: G235 16-18 empty (removed all core cards) 19/21: M9202 (1-2) 22-29 empty (removed all core cards) 29/31: M9202 DD11B: 31: 7800 32: gc 33: gc 34: 7856 34: M9202 DD11-C: 35: gc 36: NPR (jumper was removed at some point) 37: GC 38: 9312 / NPR > >> If anyone knows of or would be willing to make an XXDP TAP image >> compatible >> with a 16K PDP 11 I can convert to download via PDPGUI. >> > PDP11GUI doesn't use TAP files. You can use PDP11GUI to load individual > XXDP diagnostics into the PDP-11 without needing to boot XXDP at all. J?rg > has provided a wonderful database of diagnostics here: > http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database. Find the device > you need to test and grab the diagnostic binaries, listings, and > documentation and go to town. (See section 5 of > http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/using-pdp-11-diagnostics/227 > -pdp-11-diagnostics-running-them to see how that's done.) I have done this, some success, but some inconclusive or hard to interpret (for me). I thought I'd have better luck if I installed the entire XXDP at my skill level anyway. I am learning a lot but I did not work with this equipment before. > > > Given I also have >> issues initiating RL11 bootstrap (with known working equipment), >> > What issues are you having? Does it hang? Halt? How are you > bootstrapping? I assume you know the RL11 and the RL02 and the pack > involved are all known-working? > > Yes the controller, cable, and disk were tested and working in another system, recently. I have more than one working cable and controller. I did not personally test the RL02s I have, but one was used a lot by the previous owner, I have a 2nd that was also used by previous owner before I took possession of them. I use both the M9312 DL ROM and manually entering in the bootstrap without the M9312 installed (replace with terminator card). With the ROM method the system repeats an attempt over and over. system is looping between instructions 173022 -->173156 (error reset the world), 173160 (retry)..back to 173022 When I first power on the values in the control status register (774400) are good. 1-6 and 8-13 are cleared, bit 7 is set. After I attempt to boot (DL at the @ prompt), you can see the light pattern repeat over and over, looping through 173022 -->173160. I HALT the system and recheck the control status register. This time 15 - error (composite error (ERR)) 10 - EO (operation incomplete (OPI)) 7 - stays lit function code F2 = 1, F1 =1, F0 =0. this code indicates "HFT" (Header Not Found) To me (and this is just me) the bootstrap is not waking up the RL11 controller, and can go no further. I am not an expert, just doing the best I can, hope this helps explain. Bill From derschjo at gmail.com Sun Nov 27 20:55:52 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Sun, 27 Nov 2016 18:55:52 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <9bc4eeb2-66b0-87cf-da9c-6cba58154353@gmail.com> On 11/27/16 4:28 PM, william degnan wrote: >> >>>> Follow up - >>> I don't think I have issues with my M9312, thanks for your help. There >>> are a number of candidate issues with my 11/40 which are causing my system >>> to not be able to initiate a bootstrap of the TU58 ROM using the M9312, or >>> bootstrap manually by using the front panel. >>> >>> There is at least partial communication between the TU58 emulator (running >>> on Comm port 3) of my PC, the M7856's jumpers *I think* are correct to >>> serve as the serial card on the PDP 11/40 end. >>> >> So you've verified that the vectors on both your SLUs are correctly set? >> >> > I followed the settings found here: > http://www.pdp-11.nl/peripherls/comm/interface/dl11-w/dl11w-info.html > > >> I have the LTC turned off. >> >> > (S59 off / S510 on) > > >>> There is always more testing I can do, but I suspect my issues are not >>> with >>> the serial card. Taken holistically, I think there is a DMA UNIBUS issue >>> somewhere. Just a hunch. >>> >> Can you elaborate on why you suspect this is the case? Can you describe >> your system in detail? >> >> > I have a CPU backplane populated as follows, I have checked the jumpers on > the CPU cards to verify that they're correct to the options installed > 1: empty > 2: M7253 > 3: M7232 (1-4) M7237(5) > 4: M7231 > 5: M7233 > 6: M7235 > 7: M7234 > 8: M7236 > 9: empty with GC > CORE PLANES (2 slots 11-29 has only the first 16K populated.) > 9/11: M981 (1-2) > 11: M8293 (3-6) (start core plane) > 12: M7259 (1-2) > 13: G114 > 14: H217C > 15: G235 > 16-18 empty (removed all core cards) > 19/21: M9202 (1-2) > 22-29 empty (removed all core cards) > 29/31: M9202 > DD11B: > 31: 7800 > 32: gc > 33: gc > 34: 7856 > 34: M9202 > DD11-C: > 35: gc > 36: NPR (jumper was removed at some point) > 37: GC > 38: 9312 / NPR > Thanks. Where is the M7762 in this lineup? You might try shortening the bus to eliminate extra variables (the second MM11 backplane, and the 2nd DD11 backplane can be removed) but you're probably fine. Based on the above, it looks like you've gone over all the grants and have the proper continuity cards and/or NPR jumpers in place. I would also suggest cleaning the edge connectors on any that look dirty or oxidized, it can and does make a difference (in my experience). >>> If anyone knows of or would be willing to make an XXDP TAP image >>> compatible >>> with a 16K PDP 11 I can convert to download via PDPGUI. >>> >> PDP11GUI doesn't use TAP files. You can use PDP11GUI to load individual >> XXDP diagnostics into the PDP-11 without needing to boot XXDP at all. J?rg >> has provided a wonderful database of diagnostics here: >> http://www.retrocmp.com/tools/pdp-11-diagnostic-database. Find the device >> you need to test and grab the diagnostic binaries, listings, and >> documentation and go to town. (See section 5 of >> http://www.retrocmp.com/how-tos/using-pdp-11-diagnostics/227 >> -pdp-11-diagnostics-running-them to see how that's done.) > > I have done this, some success, but some inconclusive or hard to interpret > (for me). I thought I'd have better luck if I installed the entire XXDP > at my skill level anyway. I am learning a lot but I did not work with this > equipment before. If you really want to make a bootable XXDP TU58 tape image, the instructions given by AK6DN here: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?42246-How-to-make-a-bootable-XXDP-file-for-TU58-emulator have worked for me in the past. You can use PUTR to throw more diagnostics on the tape if you need. But you'll need to be able to actually do a TU58 boot, which it sounds like you've been having trouble with, so your mileage may vary. Running the diagnostics stand-alone using PDP11GUI should work fine, and I've had good luck with it. Just be sure to read the diagnostic instructions carefully so you know the starting addresses and the proper switch settings. (Sometimes the instructions are in the listing, sometimes there's a separate document). > >> >> Given I also have >>> issues initiating RL11 bootstrap (with known working equipment), >>> >> What issues are you having? Does it hang? Halt? How are you >> bootstrapping? I assume you know the RL11 and the RL02 and the pack >> involved are all known-working? >> >> > Yes the controller, cable, and disk were tested and working in another > system, recently. I have more than one working cable and controller. I > did not personally test the RL02s I have, but one was used a lot by the > previous owner, I have a 2nd that was also used by previous owner before I > took possession of them. > > I use both the M9312 DL ROM and manually entering in the bootstrap without > the M9312 installed (replace with terminator card). With the ROM method > the system repeats an attempt over and over. > > system is looping between instructions 173022 -->173156 (error reset the > world), 173160 (retry)..back to 173022 > > When I first power on the values in the control status register (774400) > are good. 1-6 and 8-13 are cleared, bit 7 is set. > After I attempt to boot (DL at the @ prompt), you can see the light pattern > repeat over and over, looping through 173022 -->173160. > I HALT the system and recheck the control status register. This time > 15 - error (composite error (ERR)) > 10 - EO (operation incomplete (OPI)) > 7 - stays lit > function code F2 = 1, F1 =1, F0 =0. this code indicates "HFT" (Header Not > Found) > > To me (and this is just me) the bootstrap is not waking up the RL11 > controller, and can go no further. According to the user's guide: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf If the CSR bits are as you report, the drive got the Read command (that's what F0-F2 indicate -- the last selected function, in this case "Read Data"). Bit 15 indicates a composite error, and bit 10 indicates OPI, as you note. I don't see anything in there about HFT unless you left out some bits. If indeed bit 12 is set (indicating HFT) then the "Header Not Found" indicates that the drive was unable to find the header for the sector on the disk, which makes it look like the drive is trying to read but for whatever reason isn't able to find the sector. This could be a damaged disk, misaligned heads, or any number of logic failures. I would start with the RL02/RL11 diagnostics via either XXDP or PDP11GUI and go from there. > > I am not an expert, just doing the best I can, hope this helps explain. Nor am I, but I'm getting better. The DEC documentation is generally excellent, and it helps to have a basic understanding of the instruction set. You might try sitting down with the RL02 user's manual and writing some short programs to test out the controller just to see what it's doing -- see if you can read in a single sector, etc... - Josh > > Bill > From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Mon Nov 28 01:36:19 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:36:19 +0100 Subject: OT: Looking for Jos Dreesen (Lilith Emulator MIA / ECRM cards In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <41dae7c3-9cec-9b29-3226-81c5a49ff395@greenmail.ch> On 28.11.2016 07:12, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/27/2016 7:04 PM, W2HX wrote: >> Sorry for the bandwidth. Looking for Jos Dreesen who back in 2005 mentioned on this list that he had documentation on the ECRM OCR system. Please contact me if you can. >> >> Thanks >> Eugene > I gave a look for Jos for Eugene and discovered that all of the sources for his Lilith machine emulator were pointed at a dyndns address which is now dead. I grabbed the emulator and sources and have some version, but would like to see it hosted somewhere that it can be located. > > Hunted for "Lilith Emulator, emulith (with and without Dreesen)" and only found dead links. > > thanks > Jim > Was posting to this very list just 2 days ago.... My Lilith emulator "emulith" lives at ftp.dreesen.ch/Emulith, and has been for some time. The emulator has not been updated recently, but that might change if I can get my second Lilith ( on loan from another collector ) to boot and then dump the HD. W.r.t. to ECRM cards : I do have all the info, but no way to scan the oversize sheets of paper... The 5948 card is the most useful : Serial, printer, digital inputs, and papertape reader combined in one Omnibus PCB. They use the standard DEC IOT's 5750 and 5751 together form a 80x25 video output. I seem to remember that it is only active when the 8/E is stopped. It uses DMA to access the core. The other boards : 5365 video store board, 5017 video reference board, 5018 interrupt mask board. All these are hardware assist cards for the OCR process. Useless outside the system they were designed for. 5307 / 5308 are not mentioned in the documentation I have. Jos From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 28 02:26:34 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:26:34 +0100 Subject: Bringing up a PDP-8e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161128082634.GG2578@Update.UU.SE> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 11:46:46AM -0800, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > This is my first vintage computing project. I have a PDP-8/e with the > following boards in this order. Nice machine. Strange that you are missing a serial interface. > Each core pair is 16KW. There are a bunch of other non-DEC boards > (ECRM) that I have removed for the time being. You will notice that I > have no serial board (yet. I have a line on one). What are those boards? > Next, I will put the boards back in and start testing. I am looking > for some very simple programs that I can key in from the front panel > to do some basic testing. I have found simple programs on the internet > but they are all in assembler and I don't yet have the knowledge/tools > to convert them to switch-enterable programs. For example, here are > some good test programs but not directly enterable on the front panel > (or at least I don't know how). > http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/pdp8i/testprogs/index.html On the same site you will find palbart which is really handy for assembling programs from source. But if you look at the testprogs, you have all you need, for instance: http://dustyoldcomputers.com/pdp8/pdp8i/testprogs/acmqblinker.html The second column is memory address and the third column is the instruction, both values is in octal. So, first set the switch register to 0000, which is all switches _down_. The press "LOAD ADDR" and next enter 2020, which is switch 1 and 7 up, all other down. Then press DEP. Notice the address should increment with one. Then deposit 5000, 7200 and so on from the list of instructions. Finally set the SR to 0000, press LOAD ADDR, CLEAR and CONT. If all works you should have a running program that blinks the lights in some pattern. Here is some more details on how to use the console: http://www.bernhard-baehr.de/pdp8e/kc8ea_operating.html Good luck, Pontus. From jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch Mon Nov 28 02:38:03 2016 From: jos.dreesen at greenmail.ch (jos) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:38:03 +0100 Subject: Bringing up a PDP-8e In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <34150d5a-b578-970f-a79f-ac4d48d46945@greenmail.ch> On 27.11.2016 20:46, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > This is my first vintage computing project. I have a PDP-8/e with the following boards in this order. > > FRONT PANEL > M8330 KK8E CPU Timing board (system clock), replaces M833 > M8300 \ KK8E CPU Major registers > M8310 / KK8E CPU Major register control > M837 MC8E Extended Memory and Time Share Control > M849 SHIELD > CORE1 \ > CORE1 / > CORE2 \ > CORE2 / > M8320 KK8E Bus loads > > Each core pair is 16KW. There are a bunch of other non-DEC boards (ECRM) that I have removed for the time being. You will notice that I have no serial board (yet. I have a line on one). You already have a serial board : it is part of the ECRM 5948 board Fully software comptible to the DEC serial boards. Jos From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 28 03:14:54 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 10:14:54 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables Message-ID: <20161128091454.GH2578@Update.UU.SE> Hi I brought up a VAX 4000-100 yesterday to test DSSI disks. It worked like a charm. The machine also has a qbus which is somewhat peculiar to find in a desktop VAX. However, I don't have the cables necessary to attach a QBUS expansion. Does anyone have a set? What do they even look like? Kind Regards, Pontus. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Nov 28 08:20:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:20:14 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables Message-ID: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Pontus Pihlgren > The machine also has a qbus which is somewhat peculiar to find in a > desktop VAX. I don't know much about Vaxen, but I think the early desktop ones all had a QBUS. I'm not sure if it was ever used for memory access; I know some used it as an I/O bus (to take advantage of all the existing QBUS I/O devices), and used an 'over-the-back' cable system for the memory bus. > However, I don't have the cables necessary to attach a QBUS expansion. > Does anyone have a set? What do they even look like? They are a pair of boards connected with a pair of 50-pin cables. The boards are different on each end, because the QBUS does not have in/out connectors which separate from device slots, like the UNIBUS; it only has regular QBUS slots, and those have grant in on different pin from grant out. So on the card at the end of one backplane, the grant line is connected to the 'grant in' pin, and on the other card, to the 'grant out' pin. There are a whole bunch of different card and variants thereof for this, with and without termination resistors, etc; the M9400/M9401 pair are for Q18 (which you won't want, I'd be pretty sure), and the M9405/M9405 for Q22. One set I know of is an M9404/M9405-YB. There's a fair amount of discussion of multi-segment QBUS systems in the QBUS PDP-11 processor/etc manuals, as far as the termination, etc goes. As to finding a set, there are some available on eBait at the moment for a not wholly unreasonable amount of money. Noel From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Nov 28 09:14:57 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 15:14:57 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2016, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > However, I don't have the cables necessary to attach a QBUS expansion. > > Does anyone have a set? What do they even look like? > > They are a pair of boards connected with a pair of 50-pin cables. The boards > are different on each end, because the QBUS does not have in/out connectors > which separate from device slots, like the UNIBUS; it only has regular QBUS > slots, and those have grant in on different pin from grant out. So on the card > at the end of one backplane, the grant line is connected to the 'grant in' > pin, and on the other card, to the 'grant out' pin. FYI, the VAX 4000-100/105/106 (KA52/KA54/KA54) systems have no backplane of any kind and do not use Q-bus internally, except for the CQBIC (CVAX to Q22-Bus Interface Chip) ASIC directly bridging one of the NCA (NDAL to CDAL Adapter, or the north bridge in modern speak) ASIC's CP peripheral buses to a mainboard Q-bus connector further wired with an internal cable assembly to the pair of external connectors mounted on the backside of the enclosure. > As to finding a set, there are some available on eBait at the moment for a > not wholly unreasonable amount of money. For the record they are DEC P/N BC04V-09 (17-02048-01), though the photos with the only listing I could find indicate quite a sorry state of the cables offered I'm afraid. Maciej From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 09:11:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 10:11:23 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: <9bc4eeb2-66b0-87cf-da9c-6cba58154353@gmail.com> References: <9bc4eeb2-66b0-87cf-da9c-6cba58154353@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > >> >> Thanks. Where is the M7762 in this lineup? I removed it, put in a NPG card in its place, while attempting the TU58 emulation set up. > You might try shortening the bus to eliminate extra variables (the second > MM11 backplane, and the 2nd DD11 backplane can be removed) but you're > probably fine. Yes I have done this, no difference in performance. This is actually good because I get consistent results. I have also eliminated the core RAM and used MOS, no effect on the RL11 or TU58 issue. > Based on the above, it looks like you've gone over all the grants and have > the proper continuity cards and/or NPR jumpers in place. I would also > suggest cleaning the edge connectors on any that look dirty or oxidized, it > can and does make a difference (in my experience). ok. Generally everything is very clean and I have used Deoxit when it looked like it needed it. > > > If anyone knows of or would be willing to make an XXDP TAP image >>>> compatible >>>> with a 16K PDP 11 I can convert to download via PDPGUI. >>>> >>>> PDP11GUI doesn't use TAP files. >> >> This is how I load BASIC, using the BASIC papertape file converted into a CONSOLE script that writes each memory address one at a time L 0000 D 11 D 11 D 12 etc. L 200 S (for pseuo example) > If you really want to make a bootable XXDP TU58 tape image, the > instructions given by AK6DN here: > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?42246-How-to-make- > a-bootable-XXDP-file-for-TU58-emulator > > this is what I have been doing. >> >> >> I use both the M9312 DL ROM and manually entering in the bootstrap without >> the M9312 installed (replace with terminator card). With the ROM method >> the system repeats an attempt over and over. >> >> system is looping between instructions 173022 -->173156 (error reset the >> world), 173160 (retry)..back to 173022 >> >> When I first power on the values in the control status register (774400) >> are good. 1-6 and 8-13 are cleared, bit 7 is set. >> After I attempt to boot (DL at the @ prompt), you can see the light >> pattern >> repeat over and over, looping through 173022 -->173160. >> I HALT the system and recheck the control status register. This time >> 15 - error (composite error (ERR)) >> 10 - EO (operation incomplete (OPI)) >> 7 - stays lit >> function code F2 = 1, F1 =1, F0 =0. this code indicates "HFT" (Header Not >> Found) >> >> To me (and this is just me) the bootstrap is not waking up the RL11 >> controller, and can go no further. >> > > According to the user's guide: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge > .com/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_ > Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf > > If the CSR bits are as you report, the drive got the Read command (that's > what F0-F2 indicate -- the last selected function, in this case "Read > Data"). Bit 15 indicates a composite error, and bit 10 indicates OPI, as > you note. I don't see anything in there about HFT unless you left out some > bits. > > If indeed bit 12 is set (indicating HFT) then the "Header Not Found" > indicates that the drive was unable to find the header for the sector on > the disk, which makes it look like the drive is trying to read but for > whatever reason isn't able to find the sector. This could be a damaged > disk, misaligned heads, or any number of logic failures. > > I would start with the RL02/RL11 diagnostics via either XXDP or PDP11GUI > and go from there. > > this just bombs, does not run. I agree though. basically the computer says "I can't reach the controller" I should add that the RL ROM (run DL0 from CONSOLE prompt) keeps trying over and over again, you can see it. If you run the bootstrap from the front panel it just dies. What I can do next is make more note of the registers, see if I can get more clues. It just seems to me that there is a CPU or UNIBUS issue when I see performance like this, again my hunch. It's not the controller. If the disk was bad, it'd at least try something, you'd see something. b From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 28 09:12:32 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 10:12:32 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20f4d0ef-65fe-4cd8-e9d6-ca2a5f37a547@verizon.net> On 11/28/16 9:20 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Pontus Pihlgren > > > The machine also has a qbus which is somewhat peculiar to find in a > > desktop VAX. > > I don't know much about Vaxen, but I think the early desktop ones all had a > QBUS. I'm not sure if it was ever used for memory access; I know some used it > as an I/O bus (to take advantage of all the existing QBUS I/O devices), and > used an 'over-the-back' cable system for the memory bus. > > > However, I don't have the cables necessary to attach a QBUS expansion. > > Does anyone have a set? What do they even look like? > > They are a pair of boards connected with a pair of 50-pin cables. The boards > are different on each end, because the QBUS does not have in/out connectors > which separate from device slots, like the UNIBUS; it only has regular QBUS > slots, and those have grant in on different pin from grant out. So on the card > at the end of one backplane, the grant line is connected to the 'grant in' > pin, and on the other card, to the 'grant out' pin. > > There are a whole bunch of different card and variants thereof for this, with > and without termination resistors, etc; the M9400/M9401 pair are for Q18 > (which you won't want, I'd be pretty sure), and the M9405/M9405 for Q22. One > set I know of is an M9404/M9405-YB. > > There's a fair amount of discussion of multi-segment QBUS systems in the QBUS > PDP-11 processor/etc manuals, as far as the termination, etc goes. > > As to finding a set, there are some available on eBait at the moment for a > not wholly unreasonable amount of money. > > Noel > Qbus VAXen were all PMI(private memory interface, aka over the top cable). That means all memory was always adjacent to the cpu and the CD slots used were unique without full Qbus signals. The bus was for IO and allowed devices like RLV11, RQDX2/3, DLV11, DEQNA/DELQA, DHV11 and many others. While multibox Qbus VAXen were done it was not a preferred condition and the suggested larger BA123 was preferred to the BA23. The required cables mentioned are needed and all good care in configuration. Note both (all) chassis should be int he same rack and have good common grounding to each other for best system stability along with a common power controller (single point power control). I have two VAXen using a BA23 and a BA123 (both uVAX-II). The latter BA123 is preferred as there is far more power and space for cards and media drives as well as room for cables. Allison From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 28 09:31:00 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:31:00 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161128153059.GJ2578@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 03:14:57PM +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > FYI, the VAX 4000-100/105/106 (KA52/KA54/KA54) systems have no backplane > of any kind and do not use Q-bus internally, except for the CQBIC (CVAX to > Q22-Bus Interface Chip) ASIC directly bridging one of the NCA (NDAL to > CDAL Adapter, or the north bridge in modern speak) ASIC's CP peripheral > buses to a mainboard Q-bus connector further wired with an internal cable > assembly to the pair of external connectors mounted on the backside of the > enclosure. Thanks for clearing it up. Uhm, stupid question perhaps. But what is the CDAL, and what is it's role? > > For the record they are DEC P/N BC04V-09 (17-02048-01), though the photos > with the only listing I could find indicate quite a sorry state of the > cables offered I'm afraid. > That looks very familiar... I need to go look in the box with assorted DEC cables. /P From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 28 09:34:06 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:34:06 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20161128153406.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 03:14:57PM +0000, Maciej W. Rozycki wrote: > > For the record they are DEC P/N BC04V-09 (17-02048-01), though the photos > with the only listing I could find indicate quite a sorry state of the > cables offered I'm afraid. > And I forgot, that is just the cable. I suppose you need a matching board in the QBUS box. Any idea what part number that might be? /P From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Nov 28 10:22:01 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:22:01 -0800 Subject: SWTPC 6800 issues again Message-ID: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> Hey guys, You might recall a while back I was having issues where I'd have to power up/power off multiple times before I'd get the 6800 to start up correctly and give me the SWTBUG prompt. What I did was remove an overwrought modified RAM board and replaced it with a more basic 4K board set to the $A000 range. That worked great for a while, but not we're getting back to the situation where I power up many times and get either ? marks, a string of 4s, or some other random character. I have to power off and on several times before I get the $ prompt. I figured out how to run a proper RAM diagnostic and no errors came back. I wasn't sure how to properly test the $A000 board - I assumed I couldn't let the test test the address space used by the test program itself, so I set it to run from A07F to AFFF (I think I did that right, I set the MSB in A002 to A0 and LSB in A003 to 7F, and for the upper limit MSB in A004 to AF and A005 to FF). I'm wondering now if this is really a RAM problem or maybe something else. I don't think it's the serial card.. I've tried both the MP-C and MP-S and no change. I have an NOS MP-B2 motherboard here. The 'check pins' on the molex connectors for the cards haven't even been cut. I could set that up for testing although, being totally unused I'm hesitant about altering it. What do you think on that? Brad From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:39:03 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:39:03 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <20161128153406.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161128153406.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > And I forgot, that is just the cable. I suppose you need a matching > board in the QBUS box. Any idea what part number that might be? I have an M9405-PA. It has one male and one female 3-row 50-pin D-shell connector. I believe that is the board in the expansion chassis you would cable up to the VAX 4000. It is an s-box handle board. Looks like this one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151723475931 From macro at linux-mips.org Mon Nov 28 11:29:56 2016 From: macro at linux-mips.org (Maciej W. Rozycki) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:29:56 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <20161128153059.GJ2578@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161128153059.GJ2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On Mon, 28 Nov 2016, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > FYI, the VAX 4000-100/105/106 (KA52/KA54/KA54) systems have no backplane > > of any kind and do not use Q-bus internally, except for the CQBIC (CVAX to > > Q22-Bus Interface Chip) ASIC directly bridging one of the NCA (NDAL to > > CDAL Adapter, or the north bridge in modern speak) ASIC's CP peripheral > > buses to a mainboard Q-bus connector further wired with an internal cable > > assembly to the pair of external connectors mounted on the backside of the > > enclosure. > > Thanks for clearing it up. Uhm, stupid question perhaps. But what is the > CDAL, and what is it's role? CDAL aka CVAX Data and Address Line bus is the original CVAX processor host bus. In the NVAX chipset used with the 4000-100/105/106 systems apart from the CPU(s) the NDAL host bus has two other devices only: the NMC ASIC (NVAX Memory Controller) and the NCA ASIC (as above; also termed NVAX I/O Adapter sometimes). The NMC bridges two separate CDAL buses, called CP1 and CP2, which let connect original CVAX peripherals unmodified (so e.g. the 4000-60's TURBOchannel adapter which interfaces to CDAL can be used unmodified in the 4000-90/90A/96 systems, which use the same NVAX chipset). There's a further bridge downstream on one of the CDAL buses, CEAC (CDAL to EDAL Adapter Chip), which interfaces 16-bit peripherals. Have a look at VAX 4000-100/105/106 documentation for a block diagram, which will serve you better than this textual description. Maciej From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Nov 28 12:09:09 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 13:09:09 -0500 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <73B149C0-C836-4008-841C-D8826FC0C4DE@comcast.net> No, I never have. The only PRO related schematics I have matches the motherboard portion of the one on Bitsavers. paul > On Nov 27, 2016, at 6:00 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > have you seen a copy of the schematic anywhere? > closest that has turned up is the Russian clone of it > > > On 11/27/16 1:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> The DEC Pro hard drive controller. >> >> paul >> >> > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Mon Nov 28 12:53:54 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:53:54 +0100 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161128153406.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <20161128185354.GO2578@Update.UU.SE> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 08:39:03AM -0800, Glen Slick wrote: > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > > And I forgot, that is just the cable. I suppose you need a matching > > board in the QBUS box. Any idea what part number that might be? > > I have an M9405-PA. It has one male and one female 3-row 50-pin > D-shell connector. I believe that is the board in the expansion > chassis you would cable up to the VAX 4000. It is an s-box handle > board. > > Looks like this one: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151723475931 Ah, according to my inventory I should have one :D Now I must go look for the cable. Thanks everybody! Pontus From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 28 13:27:20 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:27:20 -0800 Subject: ISO Tekelec Chameleon 32 mfm disk Message-ID: <707b0f3d-7670-a5e8-19a3-42db185c10a9@bitsavers.org> Slim chance, but does anyone have a working Chameleon that I could clone the software off of? They are 40mb MFM drives, I just bought two, and both units are missing the drives, making them boat anchors. Or, slimmer yet, if someone has the software on floppy From isking at uw.edu Mon Nov 28 13:37:54 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:37:54 -0800 Subject: SWTPC 6800 issues again In-Reply-To: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> References: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Brad H wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > You might recall a while back I was having issues where I'd have to power > up/power off multiple times before I'd get the 6800 to start up correctly > and give me the SWTBUG prompt. What I did was remove an overwrought > modified RAM board and replaced it with a more basic 4K board set to the > $A000 range. That worked great for a while, but not we're getting back to > the situation where I power up many times and get either ? marks, a string > of 4s, or some other random character. I have to power off and on several > times before I get the $ prompt. > > > > I figured out how to run a proper RAM diagnostic and no errors came back. > I > wasn't sure how to properly test the $A000 board - I assumed I couldn't > let > the test test the address space used by the test program itself, so I set > it > to run from A07F to AFFF (I think I did that right, I set the MSB in A002 > to > A0 and LSB in A003 to 7F, and for the upper limit MSB in A004 to AF and > A005 > to FF). > > > > I'm wondering now if this is really a RAM problem or maybe something else. > I don't think it's the serial card.. I've tried both the MP-C and MP-S and > no change. > > > > I have an NOS MP-B2 motherboard here. The 'check pins' on the molex > connectors for the cards haven't even been cut. I could set that up for > testing although, being totally unused I'm hesitant about altering it. > What > do you think on that? > > > > Brad > > My first question (and pardon me if this was addressed in your earlier thread) is, have you checked the power supply? If possible, use a scope, but even a good DVM will tell you if you're maintaining voltage. And if the filter cap is the original, just replace it - they have a limited lifespan. I bought one from Digi-Key for $19. Hope that helps -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:33:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 08:33:55 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: <9bc4eeb2-66b0-87cf-da9c-6cba58154353@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/28/16 7:11 AM, william degnan wrote: >> >> >> >> >> If you really want to make a bootable XXDP TU58 tape image, the >> instructions given by AK6DN here: >> http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?42246-How-to-make- >> a-bootable-XXDP-file-for-TU58-emulator >> >> > this is what I have been doing. And what does the TU58 bootstrap do when you attempt to boot? Do you see any activity over the second SLU talking to the emulator? > > >>> >>> I use both the M9312 DL ROM and manually entering in the bootstrap without >>> the M9312 installed (replace with terminator card). With the ROM method >>> the system repeats an attempt over and over. >>> >>> system is looping between instructions 173022 -->173156 (error reset the >>> world), 173160 (retry)..back to 173022 >>> >>> When I first power on the values in the control status register (774400) >>> are good. 1-6 and 8-13 are cleared, bit 7 is set. >>> After I attempt to boot (DL at the @ prompt), you can see the light >>> pattern >>> repeat over and over, looping through 173022 -->173160. >>> I HALT the system and recheck the control status register. This time >>> 15 - error (composite error (ERR)) >>> 10 - EO (operation incomplete (OPI)) >>> 7 - stays lit >>> function code F2 = 1, F1 =1, F0 =0. this code indicates "HFT" (Header Not >>> Found) >>> >>> To me (and this is just me) the bootstrap is not waking up the RL11 >>> controller, and can go no further. >>> >> According to the user's guide: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge >> .com/pdf/dec/disc/rl01_rl02/EK-RL012-UG-004_RL01_RL02_ >> Disk_Subsystem_Users_Guide_Oct80.pdf >> >> If the CSR bits are as you report, the drive got the Read command (that's >> what F0-F2 indicate -- the last selected function, in this case "Read >> Data"). Bit 15 indicates a composite error, and bit 10 indicates OPI, as >> you note. I don't see anything in there about HFT unless you left out some >> bits. >> >> If indeed bit 12 is set (indicating HFT) then the "Header Not Found" >> indicates that the drive was unable to find the header for the sector on >> the disk, which makes it look like the drive is trying to read but for >> whatever reason isn't able to find the sector. This could be a damaged >> disk, misaligned heads, or any number of logic failures. >> >> I would start with the RL02/RL11 diagnostics via either XXDP or PDP11GUI >> and go from there. >> >> > this just bombs, does not run. I agree though. basically the computer > says "I can't reach the controller" No it doesn't say that. As indicated by the fact that you can see the controller's CSR register from the front panel and the console PROM monitor, and that the bootstrap is able to write to it during execution. The controller is responding, and it's saying "sorry, I was unable to read anything." If the controller wasn't responding, the CPU would trap on execution (a Bus Error Trap, to location 4). > I should add that the RL ROM (run DL0 > from CONSOLE prompt) keeps trying over and over again, you can see it. If > you run the bootstrap from the front panel it just dies. Yes, this is expected. If you look at the listing here: ftp://ftp.bluefeathertech.com/computing/hardware/legacy/DECboot/23-751A9/23-751A9.lst you can see that what happens on an error after a Read Data command is that the bootstrap does a RESET and jumps back to the beginning to retry, indefinitely. (See line 91). There is likely a problem with your drive, the controller, the disk, or the cabling, or some combination of these things. > > What I can do next is make more note of the registers, see if I can get > more clues. Yes, that might be a good idea. Single-stepping through the bootstrap (with the aforementioned listing at your side) might be revealing. I assume you've run all the 11/40 CPU diagnostics and exercisers? > > It just seems to me that there is a CPU or UNIBUS issue when I see > performance like this, again my hunch. It's not the controller. If the > disk was bad, it'd at least try something, you'd see something. You are seeing something, in the controller's CSR register. What is it you're expecting to see? - Josh > > b > From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:35:50 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 16:35:50 +0000 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 Message-ID: Van: william degnan Verzonden: maandag 28 november 2016 01:28 Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Onderwerp: Re: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 I have a CPU backplane populated as follows, I have checked the jumpers on the CPU cards to verify that they're correct to the options installed 1: empty 2: M7253 3: M7232 (1-4) M7237(5) 4: M7231 5: M7233 6: M7235 7: M7234 8: M7236 9: empty with GC FWIW, slot 1 is only for M7239 and slot 2 is only for M7238. I assume what you have in slot 2 is a typo, it can only be EIS. Slot 1 is for FIS. - Henk From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 28 10:51:59 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:51:59 -0500 Subject: SWTPC 6800 issues again In-Reply-To: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> References: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <63079d46-e90c-a736-6e0a-274476870c79@verizon.net> On 11/28/16 11:22 AM, Brad H wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > You might recall a while back I was having issues where I'd have to power > up/power off multiple times before I'd get the 6800 to start up correctly > and give me the SWTBUG prompt. What I did was remove an overwrought > modified RAM board and replaced it with a more basic 4K board set to the > $A000 range. That worked great for a while, but not we're getting back to > the situation where I power up many times and get either ? marks, a string > of 4s, or some other random character. I have to power off and on several > times before I get the $ prompt. > > > > I figured out how to run a proper RAM diagnostic and no errors came back. I > wasn't sure how to properly test the $A000 board - I assumed I couldn't let > the test test the address space used by the test program itself, so I set it > to run from A07F to AFFF (I think I did that right, I set the MSB in A002 to > A0 and LSB in A003 to 7F, and for the upper limit MSB in A004 to AF and A005 > to FF). > > > > I'm wondering now if this is really a RAM problem or maybe something else. > I don't think it's the serial card.. I've tried both the MP-C and MP-S and > no change. > > > > I have an NOS MP-B2 motherboard here. The 'check pins' on the molex > connectors for the cards haven't even been cut. I could set that up for > testing although, being totally unused I'm hesitant about altering it. What > do you think on that? > > > > Brad > > Before you do anything try this. Remove and reinsert each card and see if the system behaves normally afterward. If it does you have crusty/corroded connectors! This was a problem with those molex pins at times. If that's the case a good cleaning may insure that does not reappear, for a while. it can also be one or two pins that have cracked solder joints and are in need of resolder. Allison From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 10:56:14 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 11:56:14 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: <9bc4eeb2-66b0-87cf-da9c-6cba58154353@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > >> It just seems to me that there is a CPU or UNIBUS issue when I see >> performance like this, again my hunch. It's not the controller. If the >> disk was bad, it'd at least try something, you'd see something. >> > You are seeing something, in the controller's CSR register. What is it > you're expecting to see? > > - Josh > > Josh - I will run more tests after work and report back. I have taken a few days off, need to catch up today. Bill From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Mon Nov 28 16:34:09 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:34:09 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:53:54 +0100" <20161128185354.GO2578@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161128142014.0EE0E18C09E@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <20161128153406.GL2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <01Q7V9RWUTY400159O@beyondthepale.ie> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 19:53 +01:00, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 08:39:03AM -0800, Glen Slick wrote: > > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 7:34 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > > > > > And I forgot, that is just the cable. I suppose you need a matching > > > board in the QBUS box. Any idea what part number that might be? > > > > I have an M9405-PA. It has one male and one female 3-row 50-pin > > D-shell connector. I believe that is the board in the expansion > > chassis you would cable up to the VAX 4000. It is an s-box handle > > board. > > > > Looks like this one: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/151723475931 > > Ah, according to my inventory I should have one :D Now I must go look for > the cable. > > Thanks everybody! > Pontus > If I may jump in at the end of this thread, I am also interested in playing with the QBUS capability of my VAX 4000-100A which has the two 50-pin D connectors as discussed. I don't want to be able to use regular QBUS cards so I don't envisage the need for an expansion chassis. What I would like to do is to construct a simple experimental QBUS device which could enable the VAX to talk to the outside world in the way of a few output lines that could drive relays or something similar. Not having an expansion chassis means that I would not need to get the cables designed to connect to it and if I had the pinout of the D connectors, assuming it is not too hard to track down suitable connectirs, I could hopefully make up cables to connect directly to the experimental device. Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could study the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? I appreciate that if I end up with a device which does not look the same as some existing QBUS device from a programming point of view, I will need to come up with suitable device drivers for it too. Please, no suggestions about drivers and receivers for the QBUS signals, I will review the many postings on this topic in the list archives. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From seefriek at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 18:43:51 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:43:51 -0500 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? Message-ID: I vaguely recall a T-1 network controller with a 8x300 series controller in an X.25 node about 30 years ago, but I don't have any supporting doco. I think it's pretty clear that uses other than disk controllers were very rare. KJ From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 19:33:41 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 18:33:41 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > IRMA card > I'd forgotten about that. The later ones designed the 8X305 out. It's interesting in that the firmware gets loaded into RAM, rather than running for PROM. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 28 19:43:07 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:43:07 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to dump http://www.ebay.com/itm/192014611480 http://www.ebay.com/itm/262721065197 On 11/28/16 5:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> IRMA card >> > > I'd forgotten about that. The later ones designed the 8X305 out. It's > interesting in that the firmware gets loaded into RAM, rather than running > for PROM. > From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 19:45:34 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 18:45:34 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to > dump > Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit IRMA II that loaded the firmware into RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the mainframes. From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Nov 28 19:54:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:54:06 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> We have little in the CHM collection coax or twinax related, which I'm trying to fix. One of the reasons I got the Chameleon 32 and the MTX 1174 recently. On 11/28/16 5:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to >> dump >> > > Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit IRMA II that loaded the firmware into > RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes > and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three > programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the > mainframes. > From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Nov 28 20:23:56 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 18:23:56 -0800 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook Message-ID: Hi all, I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version of this book and does anyone have one for sale? Thanks Eugene W2HX From w2hx at w2hx.com Mon Nov 28 21:24:39 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:24:39 -0800 Subject: pdp-8e power test/lamps Message-ID: Hi folks. As I begin getting my 8e running, after checking the PS for proper voltages and ripple I connected up the front panel. This picture is with all cards removed, just the PS and front panel. http://w2hx.com/x/VintageComp/PDP-8e/power-applied-no-cards.jpg Can anyone tell me if I have burned out bulbs (7 not illuminated in total)? Or is this inconclusive because they may be in some random state? Or, with all cards out - should I expect all lamps to illuminate? I have read all of the info/threads on bulb this great community has produced, I found a company with a stash of OL-2 which I will probably go with once I determine if I have a bulb problem or not. Thanks Eugene W2HX From chrise at pobox.com Mon Nov 28 21:56:12 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 21:56:12 -0600 Subject: SWTPC 6800 issues again In-Reply-To: References: <0d7501d24993$8df6d630$a9e48290$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On November 28, 2016 1:37:54 PM CST, "Ian S. King" wrote: >On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Brad H >> wrote: > >> Hey guys, >> >> >> >> You might recall a while back I was having issues where I'd have to >power >> up/power off multiple times before I'd get the 6800 to start up >correctly >> and give me the SWTBUG prompt. What I did was remove an overwrought >> modified RAM board and replaced it with a more basic 4K board set to >the >> $A000 range. That worked great for a while, but not we're getting >back to >> the situation where I power up many times and get either ? marks, a >string >> of 4s, or some other random character. I have to power off and on >several >> times before I get the $ prompt. >> >> >> >> I figured out how to run a proper RAM diagnostic and no errors came >back. >> I >> wasn't sure how to properly test the $A000 board - I assumed I >couldn't >> let >> the test test the address space used by the test program itself, so I >set >> it >> to run from A07F to AFFF (I think I did that right, I set the MSB in >A002 >> to >> A0 and LSB in A003 to 7F, and for the upper limit MSB in A004 to AF >and >> A005 >> to FF). >> >> >> >> I'm wondering now if this is really a RAM problem or maybe something >else. >> I don't think it's the serial card.. I've tried both the MP-C and >MP-S and >> no change. >> >> >> >> I have an NOS MP-B2 motherboard here. The 'check pins' on the molex >> connectors for the cards haven't even been cut. I could set that up >for >> testing although, being totally unused I'm hesitant about altering >it. >> What >> do you think on that? >> >> >> >> Brad >> >> >My first question (and pardon me if this was addressed in your earlier >thread) is, have you checked the power supply? If possible, use a >scope, >but even a good DVM will tell you if you're maintaining voltage. And >if >the filter cap is the original, just replace it - they have a limited >lifespan. I bought one from Digi-Key for $19. Hope that helps -- Ian Also, confirm that the connector on the power supply board (next to the big cap Ian references), that leads off to the motherboard, still has nice clean *unburned* pins. Those Molex pins were marginal at best for a heavily loaded backplane and I found mine had been heating and were pretty much toast. This results in huge drop of the +8V before it gets to the motherboard even if it looks all nice and happy across that big filter cap. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Mon Nov 28 22:09:40 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 20:09:40 -0800 Subject: SWTPC 6800 issues again Message-ID: It tested good with my DVM when I first had it.. but the cap is original for sure... maybe I will invest in a new one even though it seemed ok. Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: "Ian S. King" Date: 2016-11-28 11:37 AM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: SWTPC 6800 issues again On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 8:22 AM, Brad H wrote: > Hey guys, > > > > You might recall a while back I was having issues where I'd have to power > up/power off multiple times before I'd get the 6800 to start up correctly > and give me the SWTBUG prompt.? What I did was remove an overwrought > modified RAM board and replaced it with a more basic 4K board set to the > $A000 range.? That worked great for a while, but not we're getting back to > the situation where I power up many times and get either ? marks, a string > of 4s, or some other random character.? I have to power off and on several > times before I get the $ prompt. > > > > I figured out how to run a proper RAM diagnostic and no errors came back. > I > wasn't sure how to properly test the $A000 board -? I assumed I couldn't > let > the test test the address space used by the test program itself, so I set > it > to run from A07F to AFFF (I think I did that right, I set the MSB in A002 > to > A0 and LSB in A003 to 7F, and for the upper limit MSB in A004 to AF and > A005 > to FF). > > > > I'm wondering now if this is really a RAM problem or maybe something else. > I don't think it's the serial card.. I've tried both the MP-C and MP-S and > no change. > > > > I have an NOS MP-B2 motherboard here.? The 'check pins' on the molex > connectors for the cards haven't even been cut.? I could set that up for > testing although, being totally unused I'm hesitant about altering it. > What > do you think on that? > > > > Brad > > My first question (and pardon me if this was addressed in your earlier thread) is, have you checked the power supply?? If possible, use a scope, but even a good DVM will tell you if you're maintaining voltage.? And if the filter cap is the original, just replace it - they have a limited lifespan.? I bought one from Digi-Key for $19.? Hope that helps -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Mon Nov 28 22:42:54 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 23:42:54 -0500 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook Message-ID: <3487ee.5bf601e9.456e614e@aol.com> Eugene - I never saw a hardcopy... ed# In a message dated 11/28/2016 7:24:05 P.M. Mountain Standard Time, w2hx at w2hx.com writes: Hi all, I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version of this book and does anyone have one for sale? Thanks Eugene W2HX From ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 23:05:46 2016 From: ard.p850ug1 at gmail.com (Tony Duell) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 05:05:46 +0000 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to dump > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/192014611480 That is the board I was thinking of. > http://www.ebay.com/itm/262721065197 > > On 11/28/16 5:33 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 8:12 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> IRMA card >>> >> >> I'd forgotten about that. The later ones designed the 8X305 out. It's >> interesting in that the firmware gets loaded into RAM, rather than running >> for PROM. >> > My guess is that EPROMs of that time were not fast enough for the 8X305 to run flat out. Bipolar PROMs were too expensive in the capacity needed. So they copied the code into (fast enough) SRAM at startup. -tony From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 16:05:35 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 17:05:35 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > > > Van: william degnan > Verzonden: maandag 28 november 2016 01:28 > Aan: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Onderwerp: Re: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 > > I have a CPU backplane populated as follows, I have checked the jumpers on > the CPU cards to verify that they're correct to the options installed > 1: empty > 2: M7253 > 3: M7232 (1-4) M7237(5) > 4: M7231 > 5: M7233 > 6: M7235 > 7: M7234 > 8: M7236 > 9: empty with GC > > > FWIW, slot 1 is only for M7239 and slot 2 is only for M7238. > I assume what you have in slot 2 is a typo, it can only be EIS. > Slot 1 is for FIS. > > - Henk > Yes, slots 1 and 2 of the CPU backplane are empty on my system. Not sure what the "M7253" was supposed to be but I don't have anything in slot 2. Bill From pete at petelancashire.com Mon Nov 28 16:43:28 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 14:43:28 -0800 Subject: Tektronix DVST Terminals & 4052's in sad shape Message-ID: http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7780 If interested in details click on thumbnail the click on the picture or upper right corner select the full size Will try to get and at least salvage the CRT's -pete From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 20:46:34 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 21:46:34 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Recently (today) I noticed Address light 16 would come on when I examine > an address. For example > All switches down, turn on machine (set to 000 000) RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights come one, all other lights off hit LOAD ADDR address light 16 comes on, RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights stay on. If I hit START light 16 turns off. If I try again, to load an address, the address I selected appears, but so does light 16. I believe I have seen the explanation for this symptom somewhere, but reading the 11/40 CPU manual and handbook and I could not find the explanation. Does anyone know what this means? I have been booting directly into the console, lately the system has no problem loading and running from the console. Perhaps this huge missed issue is the root of the problem I have been having get much else done. Bill From ajp166 at verizon.net Mon Nov 28 21:12:44 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 22:12:44 -0500 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> On 11/28/2016 09:23 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi all, > > I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version of this book and does anyone have one for sale? > Thanks > Eugene W2HX > > The soft cover was common. In 40 years I've never seen a hard cover version even inside DEC. Mine is old, its shows wear but its still useful. I expect in time it will start to fall apart but like many of the others from DEC I've made repairs that kept those intact if not pretty. There are two issues, the binding glue drying and cracking, the other is high acid paper. Allison From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Nov 28 21:51:15 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2016 19:51:15 -0800 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11/28/16 6:46 PM, william degnan wrote: >> Recently (today) I noticed Address light 16 would come on when I examine >> an address. For example >> > All switches down, turn on machine (set to 000 000) > RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights come one, all other lights off > hit LOAD ADDR > address light 16 comes on, RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights stay on. > If I hit START light 16 turns off. > If I try again, to load an address, the address I selected appears, but so > does light 16. > > I believe I have seen the explanation for this symptom somewhere, but > reading the 11/40 CPU manual and handbook and I could not find the > explanation. Does anyone know what this means? I don't believe this has any specific diagnostic meaning. It's possible that there is a stuck bit in the front panel logic. It's also possible there is something wrong with the MMU, since (IIRC) the MMU is what drives address bits 16 and 17 from the CPU side. If you load an address from the front panel, is it *actually* loading the address on the switches, or is it loading the address on the switches with bit 16 also on? Try depositing a known word into a specific memory address, like 1000 using the console PROM, then try reading it back with the front panel. - Josh > > I have been booting directly into the console, lately the system has no > problem loading and running from the console. Perhaps this huge missed > issue is the root of the problem I have been having get much else done. > > Bill > From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 29 00:48:14 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 01:48:14 -0500 Subject: Can do (unbound) book scanning - was Re: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook In-Reply-To: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> References: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> Message-ID: I'm willing to scan any DEC books that are worn out and binding failing. I have a lot of handbooks etc that I won't cut and scan because they're still in good condition. But if somebody has falling-apart books, I can get them guillotined and scan them ADF. They can then be rebound - DIY or pay someone to do it. I know at least one bookbinder is on this list :) Located Toronto, Canada. --Toby On 2016-11-28 10:12 PM, allison wrote: > On 11/28/2016 09:23 PM, W2HX wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version of this book and does anyone have one for sale? >> Thanks >> Eugene W2HX >> >> > The soft cover was common. In 40 years I've never seen a hard cover > version even inside DEC. > > Mine is old, its shows wear but its still useful. I expect in time it > will start to fall apart but > like many of the others from DEC I've made repairs that kept those > intact if not pretty. > There are two issues, the binding glue drying and cracking, the other is > high acid paper. > > > Allison > From steven at malikoff.com Tue Nov 29 01:54:02 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:54:02 +1000 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook In-Reply-To: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> References: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> Message-ID: > There are two issues, the binding glue drying and cracking, the other is > high acid paper. > > Allison As mentioned these old handbooks were printed on high acidity paper, not quite as cheap as newspaper but certainly not considered to last. I had heard years ago about 'preservation paper' which was alkaline sheets that are placed in between these sorts of old pages, but a quick search hasn't turned up anything. The Library of Congress takes a more thorough approach by dipping the book in a Magnesium Oxide solution http://www.loc.gov/preservation/scientists/projects/mass_deacid.html Probably not for the inexperienced archivist as how do you get the pages ironed properly after it has dried out :). Long-term storage through digital means ie. bitsavers and wide distribution is it seems going to last the longest (thank you bitsavers). Steve From lproven at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 04:08:08 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:08:08 +0100 Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England Message-ID: A friend of a member from another mailing list has some DEC kit to dispose of. Here is what I know at present: ? Rudiments of 2 microvax 2000s, a SCSI disc, a TK50 drive and a Vaxstation 3100 An X-terminal. A couple of VT220s An LQP02 - the drive belts have rotted :( A Vaxmate A Rainbow Full inventory to follow, will have to wait for a sunny day. ? Would anyone care to suggest if any of this is worth money? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From pete at dunnington.plus.com Tue Nov 29 04:54:27 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:54:27 +0000 Subject: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66729f71-07da-3f70-00a2-0c0861be9d71@dunnington.plus.com> On 29/11/2016 02:23, W2HX wrote: > I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in > the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is > softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms > of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version > of this book and does anyone have one for sale? I've seen literally hundreds of DEC handbooks, but the only ones I ever saw with hard covers were ones our University library had rebound. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Tue Nov 29 06:51:31 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Rob Jarratt) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:51:31 -0000 Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <017501d24a3f$4edc4820$ec94d860$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Liam > Proven > Sent: 29 November 2016 10:08 > To: Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England > > A friend of a member from another mailing list has some DEC kit to dispose > of. > > Here is what I know at present: > > ? > Rudiments of 2 microvax 2000s, a SCSI disc, a TK50 drive and a Vaxstation > 3100 Probably not worth a lot really, which model of 3100? I would be interested in the SCSI disk. I would hate to see any of this dumped though. > > An X-terminal. Don't know. > > A couple of VT220s I know people like these. I have two and if I had room I would take more. > > An LQP02 - the drive belts have rotted :( No idea. > > A Vaxmate I wouldn't mind one of these. Don't know if they are sought after though > > A Rainbow I am sure people would be interested in a Rainbow. > > Full inventory to follow, will have to wait for a sunny day. > ? > > Would anyone care to suggest if any of this is worth money? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? Google Mail/Talk/Plus: lproven at gmail.com > Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven ? Skype/LinkedIn/AIM/Yahoo: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 07:06:04 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:06:04 +0000 Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 November 2016 at 10:08, Liam Proven wrote: > A couple of VT220s > > An LQP02 - the drive belts have rotted :( > > A Vaxmate > > A Rainbow > I have a collector friend who's been looking for a VT220 for $YEARS, he'd be chuffed if I could pick one up for him, and while I shouldn't really be taking in anything bulky I'd be quite partial to a VAXmate. I can't put a value on things like this because I give my spare DEC stuff away. Cheers! -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From spedraja at ono.com Tue Nov 29 07:49:28 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 14:49:28 +0100 Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm looking for one VT220 too. The motherboard of the last one is dead. It would need shipment but I'll afford the costs. Feel free to put us in contact. Kind Regards Sergio 2016-11-29 14:06 GMT+01:00 Adrian Graham : > On 29 November 2016 at 10:08, Liam Proven wrote: > >> A couple of VT220s >> >> An LQP02 - the drive belts have rotted :( >> >> A Vaxmate >> >> A Rainbow >> > > I have a collector friend who's been looking for a VT220 for $YEARS, he'd > be chuffed if I could pick one up for him, and while I shouldn't really be > taking in anything bulky I'd be quite partial to a VAXmate. I can't put a > value on things like this because I give my spare DEC stuff away. > > Cheers! > > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From mgariboldi at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 07:50:00 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 14:50:00 +0100 Subject: for sale/trade: big list of both old and (relatively) new, deadline: end of November (ideally) In-Reply-To: References: <20161125112218.GA22037@mooli.org.uk> <361ec4da-99c9-1ff7-088c-219f7b3804c7@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, recently I received a notification that my messages were bounced and that I had to reactivate my membership. Let me remind everyone that the deadline is nearing... - MG 2016-11-26 7:15 GMT+01:00 Ian S. King : > On Fri, Nov 25, 2016 at 3:28 AM, MG wrote: > > > Hello, > > > > Op 25-nov-2016 om 12:22 schreef Peter Corlett: > > > >> Some of the storage kit looks worth a gander. > >> > >> Where in the Netherlands is this? I live in the backwaters of Zaandam. > >> > > > > The items are located in a residential area in Leiden (in the province of > > Zuid-Holland / South > > > > I was just in Leiden last week! Of course, I was flying, so I would have > been constrained on what I could carry.... > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From w2hx at w2hx.com Tue Nov 29 09:12:11 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 07:12:11 -0800 Subject: Can do (unbound) book scanning - was Re: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook In-Reply-To: References: <46fbe12c-1c20-b3fe-604e-f761f97592cc@verizon.net> Message-ID: Hi Toby et., al. Thanks for the offer to scan. In this particular case, the handbook PDF is available on the internet from several locations. But I am sure we all appreciate your offer for other books that might need preserving. A very generous offer. Thanks Eugene -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Toby Thain Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 1:48 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Can do (unbound) book scanning - was Re: WTB: PDP-8/e handbook I'm willing to scan any DEC books that are worn out and binding failing. I have a lot of handbooks etc that I won't cut and scan because they're still in good condition. But if somebody has falling-apart books, I can get them guillotined and scan them ADF. They can then be rebound - DIY or pay someone to do it. I know at least one bookbinder is on this list :) Located Toronto, Canada. --Toby On 2016-11-28 10:12 PM, allison wrote: > On 11/28/2016 09:23 PM, W2HX wrote: >> Hi all, >> >> I am in the market to obtain the PDP-8/e small computer handbook in the form of a real book. There is one on ABE books available which is softcover. I always worry about a 500 page book in softcover in terms of the binding and general sturdiness. Was there a hardcover version of this book and does anyone have one for sale? >> Thanks >> Eugene W2HX >> >> > The soft cover was common. In 40 years I've never seen a hard cover > version even inside DEC. > > Mine is old, its shows wear but its still useful. I expect in time it > will start to fall apart but like many of the others from DEC I've > made repairs that kept those intact if not pretty. > There are two issues, the binding glue drying and cracking, the other > is high acid paper. > > > Allison > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 29 09:42:30 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 07:42:30 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On 11/28/2016 5:54 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > We have little in the CHM collection coax or twinax related, which I'm trying to fix. > One of the reasons I got the Chameleon 32 and the MTX 1174 recently. > > On 11/28/16 5:45 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 6:43 PM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >>> I bought a rev 1 with proms and a print server from dca on ebay today to >>> dump >>> >> Cool! I've only ever used the 8-bit IRMA II that loaded the firmware into >> RAM. At the time I was working for a company with multiple IBM mainframes >> and an army of COBOL programmers, though I was in a team of three >> programmers using Turbo Pascal on IBM XTs. I didn't ever use the >> mainframes. Here is an IRMA-II which was suggested by one of AL's auctions. As Eric says, no roms, so firmware would have to run in ram. DCA-IRMA2-8-BIT-ISA-BOARD-INTERNAL-CARD-000008-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-S167/ http://www.ebay.com/itm/371801048053 > From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 29 11:16:55 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:16:55 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> On 11/29/16 7:42 AM, jim stephens wrote: > > Here is an IRMA-II which was suggested by one of AL's auctions. As Eric says, no roms, so firmware would have to run in > ram. > > DCA-IRMA2-8-BIT-ISA-BOARD-INTERNAL-CARD-000008-VINTAGE-COMPUTER-S167/ > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/371801048053 I have one of those, but didn't think it would be very interesting unless the driver could be found that had the code to upload into it. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 29 11:22:40 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:22:40 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables Message-ID: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Coghlan > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could study > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able to do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity. Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they tend to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available. If all you want is master/slave (i.e. the ability to read/write registers), try this: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/test.pdf It implements a single 16-bit register. (Changing it to support a single block of registers would of course be trivial.) The switches (and associated comparators) in the lower left allow one to set the bus address it responds to; the 3 latches on the right hold the register contents; the drivers/buffers below them drive LEDs to display the register contents. The control logic is about as simple as it can be; one latch, and a couple of gates. You should probably read the QBUS description in any QBUS PDP-11 manual before attempting to understand it, but having done that, it should be pretty self-explanatory - the signal names should clue you in to what they mean. > From: Glen Slick > I have an M9405-PA. It has one male and one female 3-row 50-pin > D-shell connector. That's on the metal plate, right? The board itself should have a 2x25 Berg header. Noel From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 11:46:31 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 09:46:31 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: References: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2016 9:22 AM, "Noel Chiappa" wrote: > > > I have an M9405-PA. It has one male and one female 3-row 50-pin > > D-shell connector. > > That's on the metal plate, right? The board itself should have a 2x25 > Berg header. Same deal as a few other S-box handle boards. It's a standard dual wide M9405 board riveted to the S-box handle frame and a dual wide blank spacer for the CD half of the slot. The two 50-pin D-shell connectors on the metal frame are connected to the two standard connectors on the base M9405 board by two short ribbon cable jumpers. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 29 11:50:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:50:46 -0500 (EST) Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 Message-ID: <20161129175046.40BBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: William Degnan > hit LOAD ADDR > address light 16 comes on, RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights stay on. According to the KD11-A manual (pg. 3-2) the address lights on the console are driven directly from the CPU's Bus Address Register. So you've got an issue there. > If I hit START light 16 turns off. So it's not wedged on in the CPU. Maybe a console switch issue, then? > From: Josh Dersch > Try depositing a known word into a specific memory address, like 1000 > using the console PROM, then try reading it back with the front panel. The console emulator doesn't directly support access to memory about 56KB (as would be, with address bit 16 on). To look at that memory, one has to set up the MMU and turn on mapping - there's a section in the M9312 manual which shows how to do it. Noel From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Nov 29 11:54:46 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:54:46 -0500 Subject: Homebrew QBus designs - was Re: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <767506f5-7ade-bed0-2323-af396a1446fb@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-11-29 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Peter Coghlan > > > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could study > > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to > > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? > > Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able to > do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity. > > Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they tend > to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus > transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available. > > If all you want is master/slave (i.e. the ability to read/write registers), > try this: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/test.pdf > > It implements a single 16-bit register. (Changing it to support a single > block of registers would of course be trivial.) This is great! Are there any other accompanying materials of interest to QBus hobbyists? --Toby > ... From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 12:10:19 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:10:19 -0500 Subject: DEC M9312 Configs for a 11/40 In-Reply-To: <20161129175046.40BBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161129175046.40BBE18C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:50 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: William Degnan > > > hit LOAD ADDR > > address light 16 comes on, RUN/PROC/BUS/CONSOLE lights stay on. > > According to the KD11-A manual (pg. 3-2) the address lights on the console > are driven directly from the CPU's Bus Address Register. So you've got an > issue there. > Thanks for finding that for me. > > > If I hit START light 16 turns off. > > So it's not wedged on in the CPU. Maybe a console switch issue, then? > > A DC LO has crept up, I can't take this any further until I fix that issue. Not sure if it's the M7231 or a power supply component yet. I am about ready to throw this thing out the window :-) .... if it would fit. The problem with address 16 may have been related to the failure that ultimately lead to the DC LO (-0.22 V) value. It wasn't an issue until yesterday afternoon. b From chd at chdickman.com Tue Nov 29 12:24:03 2016 From: chd at chdickman.com (Charles Dickman) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 13:24:03 -0500 Subject: Homebrew QBus designs - was Re: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <767506f5-7ade-bed0-2323-af396a1446fb@telegraphics.com.au> References: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <767506f5-7ade-bed0-2323-af396a1446fb@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: > On 2016-11-29 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >> > From: Peter Coghlan >> >> > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could >> study >> > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to >> > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? >> >> Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able >> to >> do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity. >> >> Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they >> tend >> to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus >> transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available. The DEC Chipkit documentation has the internal schematics for the standard DEC interface chips and is very much worth a read. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 29 12:28:31 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:28:31 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board with more than an 8X300/305 and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic. How many boards used other specialized members of the product family, such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355? --Chuck From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 12:34:48 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:34:48 +0100 Subject: DEC kit on offer in Sussex, England In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hello, I'm interested in Rainbow and DecMate, specially if there are monitor and keyboard. Eventually also vax2000 parts, for possible repairs. Thanks Andrea From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Nov 29 12:03:59 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 10:03:59 -0800 Subject: Tektronix DVST Terminals & 4052's in sad shape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Enough have responded so I will ask if the property owner will let me have them. If so I'll keep tabs of who and when have replied and if not in the continental US see what can be done. The only interest I have my self would have been the 4013 but I've got too many other projects. -pete On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7780 > > If interested in details click on thumbnail the click on the picture or > upper right corner select the full size > > Will try to get and at least salvage the CRT's > > -pete > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 29 13:11:24 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:11:24 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-29, at 10:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board with more than an 8X300/305 > and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic. > > How many boards used other specialized members of the product family, > such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355? Admittedly I could go find my copy of the Osborne 70s microprocessors book to answer this question but I'm here and the book is somewhere, and I suspect one or two people here can answer this without pulling out the book - is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed in a chapter of the Osborne book? From aek at bitsavers.org Tue Nov 29 13:37:02 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 11:37:02 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8afeb787-b3e0-aa11-2196-b9dc22f58852@bitsavers.org> the only one I've seen is the Zendex ZX-203 On 11/29/16 10:28 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I don't think that I've seen an 8X30x board with more than an 8X300/305 > and perhaps an 8X330 FDC and various transceivers, memory and other logic. > > How many boards used other specialized members of the product family, > such as 8X384, 8X310, 8X320, 8X360 or 8X355? > > --Chuck > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Nov 29 12:47:40 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:47:40 +0000 (WET) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:22:40 -0500 (EST)" <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01Q7WG1C02Y400159O@beyondthepale.ie> Noel Chiappa wrote: > > > From: Peter Coghlan > > > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could study > > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to > > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? > > Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able to > do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity. > Interrupts would be great to have and DMA might also be useful down the line but I have a much better chance of getting somewhere with this if I keep things as simple as possible for now anyway. > > Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they tend > to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus > transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available. > A single chip plus tranceivers solution would be ideal but I couldn't see it being that easy :-) > > If all you want is master/slave (i.e. the ability to read/write registers), > try this: > > http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/QSIC/test.pdf > > It implements a single 16-bit register. (Changing it to support a single > block of registers would of course be trivial.) > This is pretty much exactly what I was looking for. Thanks! > > The switches (and associated comparators) in the lower left allow one to set > the bus address it responds to; the 3 latches on the right hold the register > contents; the drivers/buffers below them drive LEDs to display the register > contents. The control logic is about as simple as it can be; one latch, and a > couple of gates. > I've studied the circuit a bit and it seems pretty clear what most of it is doing. However, I am puzzled by the BPOK and BINIT signals being connected to U7 even though they do not seem to get used for either input or output. I wonder is this just because two tranceivers were left over and they might as well have something connected to them that might come in handy later or is it because I am failing to understand something properly? > > You should probably read the QBUS description in any QBUS PDP-11 manual > before attempting to understand it, but having done that, it should be pretty > self-explanatory - the signal names should clue you in to what they mean. > Thanks. I'll do that. Another thing I noticed is that there are rather more than 50 QBUS signals listed on the top right of the circuit diagram. I guess which ones are omitted from the 50 pin D connectors will become apparant when I find a pinout for those connectors. I suppose the power rails and those labeled "spare" are likely candidates for omission. I was hoping that there would be lots of signal pairs like SCSI and some 25 pair telephone cable I have on hand might be suitable for the cabling but it doesn't look like that is going to be appropriate. Regards, Peter Coghlan From cclist at sydex.com Tue Nov 29 14:29:27 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 12:29:27 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 11/29/2016 11:11 AM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > Admittedly I could go find my copy of the Osborne 70s microprocessors > book to answer this question but I'm here and the book is somewhere, > and I suspect one or two people here can answer this without pulling > out the book - is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed > in a chapter of the Osborne book? I don't know if I'd call it a proto-DSP device, but it is/was a bipolar microcontroller type of device. The Osborne book does a very poor job at explaining its functioning--and then tries to fit the book's standard "move bytes" benchmark to it. Better is the Signetics "Bipolar LSI Data Manual": http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/signetics/_dataBooks/1984_Signetics_Bipolar_LSI_Data_Manual.pdf Which gives a pretty good rundown on the whole family. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 15:00:58 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 14:00:58 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed in a chapter of > the Osborne book? > I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and 8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions. From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 15:04:39 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 14:04:39 -0700 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 10:05 PM, Tony Duell wrote: > My guess is that EPROMs of that time were not fast enough for the 8X305 to > run > flat out. Bipolar PROMs were too expensive in the capacity needed. So > they copied the code into (fast enough) SRAM at startup. > AFAIK, at the time the IRMA II was made, 2K*8 fast(ish) bipolar PROMs were not much different in price from the 2K*8 static RAMs they used. I think the purpose most likely was to allow choice of different firmware at runtime, either for different feature sets, or for diagnostics. From dab at froghouse.org Tue Nov 29 15:07:36 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 16:07:36 -0500 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <01Q7WG1C02Y400159O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01Q7WG1C02Y400159O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On 11/29/2016 01:47 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > A single chip plus tranceivers solution would be ideal but I couldn't see it > being that easy :-) I have a single chip plus transceivers solution but my single chip is a Xilinx Artix 7 FPGA. Maybe that's cheating but it does implement register reads and writes, interrupt cycles, bus master operations, and memory reads and writes in that single chip. :-) From phb.hfx at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 15:10:36 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:10:36 -0400 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On 2016-11-29 5:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > >> is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed in a chapter of >> the Osborne book? >> > I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and > 8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only > address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP > processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be > able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit > microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest > instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions. I just went and got my Osborne book... " The 8X300 is described by its manufacturer as a "microcontroller" rather than a "microprocessor". This distinction draws attention to the unique capabilities of the 8X300 which make it the most remarkable device described in this book" "The 8X300 is designed to serve as a signal processor or logic controller, operating at very high speed." Paul. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Nov 29 17:04:56 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:04:56 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: Apart from my Rainbow I don't really have any DEC stuff. ?So I was thinking about trying to acquire something early 70s... like a PDP8/E or similar. ?I don't see them for sale often and I notice that DEC stuff is hotly contested on ebay. ?Wondering what a complete 8/E would run in working or non working condition, or if it is feasible to buy in pieces (I did this with some other equipment I have.. allowed me to spread out the cost.. but is dependent on parts availability). Advice/thoughts most welcome. Sent from my Samsung device From glen.slick at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 17:13:44 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:13:44 -0800 Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: <01Q7WG1C02Y400159O@beyondthepale.ie> References: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01Q7WG1C02Y400159O@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Nov 29, 2016 11:44 AM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > > Another thing I noticed is that there are rather more than 50 QBUS signals > listed on the top right of the circuit diagram. I guess which ones are omitted > from the 50 pin D connectors will become apparant when I find a pinout for > those connectors. I suppose the power rails and those labeled "spare" are > likely candidates for omission. > There are *two* 50-pin bus extension cables, not just one. More than enough signal lines for the 72 card edge fingers on a dual wide card. (18 per 2 sides per the A and B card edge connector positions). From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Nov 29 17:29:28 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:29:28 -0800 Subject: Other SMS300/8X300/8X305 uses? In-Reply-To: References: <3e06b12c-9317-7917-534a-f96438d298de@bitsavers.org> <230d317f-6503-7ad9-a939-d0b5430f74ac@bitsavers.org> <1b22fcd0-18b1-e315-5065-5972ae0206dc@bitsavers.org> <6B9BEA04-DAB8-422F-80A8-571B1DB201F1@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <893EE41D-31CD-4F70-A60F-6F4945F9A0DA@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Nov-29, at 1:10 PM, Paul Berger wrote: > On 2016-11-29 5:00 PM, Eric Smith wrote: >> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> is the 8X300 the 'unusual', proto-DSP device discussed in a chapter of >>> the Osborne book? >>> >> I don't know whether Osborne described it that way, but since the 8X300 and >> 8X305 don't have a multiplier, only support 8-bit addition, and can only >> address 512 bytes of data address space, they wouldn't make very good DSP >> processors. However, since all instructions execute in 250 ns, they'd be >> able to perform some DSP operations faster than contemporary 8-bit >> microprocessors, which usually took at least 2 us for the simplest >> instructions, and even longer for fancier instructions. > > I just went and got my Osborne book... > > " The 8X300 is described by its manufacturer as a "microcontroller" rather than a "microprocessor". This distinction draws attention to the unique capabilities of the 8X300 which make it the most remarkable device described in this book" > > "The 8X300 is designed to serve as a signal processor or logic controller, operating at very high speed." Those are the statements I was recalling the sentiment of. I used the phrase proto-DSP in the sense of not-quite a DSP but directed towards high data/IO throughput, or precursor to DSPs. I remember the device from going through the Osborne book, and had wondered where it might have been actually used, thinking of medical or mil/avionics, so it's interesting to hear in this thread it found use in more commonplace/accessible products. From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Nov 29 17:38:41 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 15:38:41 -0800 Subject: Tektronix DVST Terminals & 4052's in sad shape In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <014001d24a99$b86c1b30$29445190$@bettercomputing.net> Wow those are some seriously.. er.. organic terminals. Can they even be salvaged? I'm sure they're all spoken for if you can get them, but if not let me know. I'd love to have even a static example of a TEK terminal to be displayed with my board bucket. I have both US and Canadian addresses. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pete Lancashire Sent: Tuesday, November 29, 2016 10:04 AM To: General Subject: Re: Tektronix DVST Terminals & 4052's in sad shape Enough have responded so I will ask if the property owner will let me have them. If so I'll keep tabs of who and when have replied and if not in the continental US see what can be done. The only interest I have my self would have been the 4013 but I've got too many other projects. -pete On Mon, Nov 28, 2016 at 2:43 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=7780 > > If interested in details click on thumbnail the click on the picture > or upper right corner select the full size > > Will try to get and at least salvage the CRT's > > -pete > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 29 17:51:21 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:51:21 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brad H > I was thinking about trying to acquire something early 70s... Anything DEC early 70's is going to be fairly expensive, alas. Only once one gets to QBUS -11's does the price come down. > if it is feasible to buy in pieces .. but is dependent on parts > availability I would not recommend this route. Those machines are a lot of bits and pieces, and if you buy a few, unless you're incredibly lucky, it will take forever for the rest of them to show up. There will be a few things that just never show. (Even when buying a 'complete' system, one will often find that it has been robbed of a few critical components, probably cannabilized to keep another machine running BITD.) There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it _might_ be possible to round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the rule.) Noel From jwsmail at jwsss.com Tue Nov 29 18:28:49 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 16:28:49 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <9eca1f1c-5806-8b39-e3c9-54c9a24e8686@jwsss.com> On 11/29/2016 3:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 > chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it_might_ be possible to > round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the rule.) > > Noel He sold the boardset first, now has broken up part of the rest. parts of the backplane were sold earlier as well. I've watched this vendor for a while and bought some things, which were clean. He also sold a complete 8/E recently and as noel said, went for $$$ thanks Jim From sales at elecplus.com Tue Nov 29 18:59:20 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 18:59:20 -0600 Subject: dot matrix printers to be thrown out near Denver Message-ID: <059301d24aa4$fc35c540$f4a14fc0$@com> Might already be gone, located in Longmont near Denver. Give him a call! $25 - Epson DXF5000 ( Longmont ) near denver We have some wide carriage dot matrix printers. They work and they are worth next to nothing. Come and get them intact or search the dumpster for parts If I have to throw these IBM, Epson and OKI dot matrix printers in the trash - they will be in pieces no larger than a candy bar. I promise to break them up so that no one can ever use them. I might give them away for free, but our dumpster will contain tiny bits if you think waiting is the better plan 303-651-7919 634 Main Longmont From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 19:13:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:13:53 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <9eca1f1c-5806-8b39-e3c9-54c9a24e8686@jwsss.com> References: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9eca1f1c-5806-8b39-e3c9-54c9a24e8686@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:28 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/29/2016 3:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 >> chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it_might_ be possible >> to >> round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the >> rule.) >> >> Noel >> > He sold the boardset first, now has broken up part of the rest. parts of > the backplane were sold earlier as well. > > I've watched this vendor for a while and bought some things, which were > clean. He also sold a complete 8/E > recently and as noel said, went for $$$ > > thanks > Jim > I am working on liberating 10 PDP 8i's...but the guy has fallen off comms. I plan to make a trip to the location, see what I can do. I don't want these, just want to help find a good home for them. b From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Tue Nov 29 19:17:59 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:17:59 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: <0bm61dtgbocragexoaaa7s8c.1480468679753@email.android.com> That sounds interesting. ?I imagine they'd be worth even more than an 8/E? Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: william degnan Date: 2016-11-29 5:13 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:28 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/29/2016 3:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 >> chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it_might_? be possible >> to >> round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the >> rule.) >> >>???????? Noel >> > He sold the boardset first, now has broken up part of the rest. parts of > the backplane were sold earlier as well. > > I've watched this vendor for a while and bought some things, which were > clean.? He also sold a complete 8/E > recently and as noel said, went for $$$ > > thanks > Jim > I am working on liberating 10 PDP 8i's...but the guy has fallen off comms. I plan to make a trip to the location, see what I can do.? I don't want these, just want to help find a good home for them. b From js at cimmeri.com Tue Nov 29 19:29:25 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:29:25 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <0bm61dtgbocragexoaaa7s8c.1480468679753@email.android.com> References: <0bm61dtgbocragexoaaa7s8c.1480468679753@email.android.com> Message-ID: <583E2B75.5070007@cimmeri.com> On 11/29/2016 8:17 PM, Brad H wrote: > > That sounds interesting. I imagine they'd be worth even more than an 8/E? > > > Sent from my Samsung device > > -------- Original message -------- > From: william degnan > Date: 2016-11-29 5:13 PM (GMT-08:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff > > On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 7:28 PM, jim stephens wrote: > >> >> On 11/29/2016 3:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >> >>> There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 >>> chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it_might_ be possible >>> to >>> round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the >>> rule.) >>> >>> Noel >>> >> He sold the boardset first, now has broken up part of the rest. parts of >> the backplane were sold earlier as well. >> >> I've watched this vendor for a while and bought some things, which were >> clean. He also sold a complete 8/E >> recently and as noel said, went for $$$ >> >> thanks >> Jim >> > I am working on liberating 10 PDP 8i's...but the guy has fallen off comms. > I plan to make a trip to the location, see what I can do. I don't want > these, just want to help find a good home for them. > > b Just because you sent from your Samsung device, you can't bottom post? I don't care whether it's top of bottom posting, but at least keep it consistent within a thread!! From sales at elecplus.com Tue Nov 29 19:36:36 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Electronics Plus) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:36:36 -0600 Subject: Woz signed Apple IIGS system for pickup only near Dallas Message-ID: <000501d24aaa$30e31590$92a940b0$@com> http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/sys/5890446928.html From ian.finder at gmail.com Tue Nov 29 19:40:30 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:40:30 -0800 Subject: Woz signed Apple IIGS system for pickup only near Dallas In-Reply-To: <000501d24aaa$30e31590$92a940b0$@com> References: <000501d24aaa$30e31590$92a940b0$@com> Message-ID: I believe the "Woz" edition was actually produced in greater quantities than the normal one. Either way, even if it were a real signature- Woz is known to have low enough standards with a sharpie that his autograph may in fact devalue an item! - Ian On Tuesday, November 29, 2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/sys/5890446928.html > > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Nov 29 19:49:37 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 17:49:37 -0800 (PST) Subject: Woz signed Apple IIGS system for pickup only near Dallas In-Reply-To: References: <000501d24aaa$30e31590$92a940b0$@com> Message-ID: On Tue, 29 Nov 2016, Ian Finder wrote: > I believe the "Woz" edition was actually produced in greater quantities > than the normal one. > Either way, even if it were a real signature- Woz is known to have low > enough standards with a sharpie that his autograph may in fact devalue > an item! > - Ian In which case, it was appropriate that Cindy warned you of the defacing before you drove to Dallas. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Nov 29 19:56:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:56:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables Message-ID: <20161130015653.C3E7618C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Peter Coghlan > Interrupts would be great to have If you decide you need interrupts, the DLV11 (MP-00055) has a simpile interrupt circuit built out of flops and gates. > However, I am puzzled by the BPOK and BINIT signals being connected to > U7 even though they do not seem to get used ... I wonder is this just > because two tranceivers were left over and they might as well have > something connected to them that might come in handy later or is it > because I am failing to understand something properly? Neither, but your first one is close! :-) Actually, that design started as a CAD file (for KiCAD) that I got from Dave B; I munged on it until it was what I wanted. Those two signals were connected to that transceiver in Dave's original circuit; my design doesn't (as you discovered) actually use BPOK or BINIT, so they just stayed connected up, but unused. > there are rather more than 50 QBUS signals listed on the top right of > the circuit diagram. As Glen indicated, it actually takes 2 50-pin connectors. > I suppose the power rails and those labeled "spare" are likely > candidates for omission. I don't think they'd have carried power through that connector. The spare lines might well be connected through. I haven't checked the pinout of the 50-pin Berg headers (which were the original, the 'D' connectors came later), but if they followed UNIBUS precedent, every other wire in the flat cable will be a ground, to help minimize cross-talk between lines with signals on them. > I was hoping that there would be lots of signal pairs like SCSI Well, the QBUS wasn't designed to go through a cable, originally it was backplane only; so it doesn't have differential pairs, or anything like that. Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Nov 29 20:41:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:41:21 -0500 Subject: Woz signed Apple IIGS system for pickup only near Dallas Message-ID: <8f03e6.40da619a.456f9650@aol.com> I saw one in a thrift shop years ago... I seem to remember Woz a stenciled on or printed on In a message dated 11/29/2016 6:40:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, ian.finder at gmail.com writes: I believe the "Woz" edition was actually produced in greater quantities than the normal one. Either way, even if it were a real signature- Woz is known to have low enough standards with a sharpie that his autograph may in fact devalue an item! - Ian On Tuesday, November 29, 2016, Electronics Plus wrote: > http://dallas.craigslist.org/ndf/sys/5890446928.html > > > > > > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From ethan at 757.org Tue Nov 29 20:50:45 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 21:50:45 -0500 (EST) Subject: Woz signed Apple IIGS system for pickup only near Dallas In-Reply-To: References: <000501d24aaa$30e31590$92a940b0$@com> Message-ID: > I believe the "Woz" edition was actually produced in greater quantities > than the normal one. > Either way, even if it were a real signature- Woz is known to have low > enough standards with a sharpie that his autograph may in fact devalue > an item! > - Ian There is a Woz edition IIGS system with it stenciled on. He added the Woz to one of mine for me when he spoke in Virginia Beach. But yea that machine isn't leaving my possesion! -- Ethan O'Toole From isking at uw.edu Tue Nov 29 21:19:12 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 19:19:12 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <0bm61dtgbocragexoaaa7s8c.1480468679753@email.android.com> References: <0bm61dtgbocragexoaaa7s8c.1480468679753@email.android.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > That sounds interesting. I imagine they'd be worth even more than an 8/E? > > > Keep in mind that the 8/I is a fairly substantial investment in space and weight. Also, if you want to add something, it's not as easy as plugging a card into a backplane. The 8/I requires wirewrap work. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From ajp166 at verizon.net Tue Nov 29 19:18:05 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2016 20:18:05 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 11/29/2016 06:51 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Brad H > > > I was thinking about trying to acquire something early 70s... > > Anything DEC early 70's is going to be fairly expensive, alas. Only once one > gets to QBUS -11's does the price come down. > > > if it is feasible to buy in pieces .. but is dependent on parts > > availability > > I would not recommend this route. Those machines are a lot of bits and > pieces, and if you buy a few, unless you're incredibly lucky, it will take > forever for the rest of them to show up. There will be a few things that just > never show. (Even when buying a 'complete' system, one will often find that > it has been robbed of a few critical components, probably cannabilized to > keep another machine running BITD.) > > There might be a rare exception (I see the guys in Mahwah selling a PDP-8 > chassis, and also a front panel with switches, and it _might_ be possible to > round up all the boards - but that's more like the exception than the rule.) > > Noel > I'll add my penny... The likelihood of success is based on available money and space to store things. That and how common they were/are. For example a PDP-6, I believe under 30 were made so finding one is very unlikely and also going to be expensive to acquire never mind restore. So Unibus PDP-11s, they were largely going away by the late 70s to mid 80s with maybe 15000 made where Qbus 11s were ramping up from about 76 on though relatively recently with something north of 50,000 made. Easier to find and fix too as they used parts that aren't quite as extinct. Its also good that the early MicroVAX used the same bus and IO boards to add to the supply. Same would apply to the PDP-5, 12 and later its follow on the PDP8. The Omnibus 8s are easier to find and fix compared to the 8I/L and earlier machines, less costly too. There are other machines like Data General to consider as well. Or likely things that were common in your geography. Me, I've only been collecting since the mid 70s so patience has been an aid. Allison From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 00:38:54 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 00:38:54 -0600 Subject: Macintosh Portable Message-ID: <2rv2xqwjv7f1eagslw4hql15.1480487934994@email.android.com> Did you end up trying anything yet? Isn't there some requirement for a working battery for it to power on or was that just the power routing through the battery so a corroded one isn't a simple run without it fix? -------- Original message --------From: Chris Pye Date: 11/26/16 12:26 AM (GMT-06:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Macintosh Portable Does anyone know off hand what polarity that Mac Portable requires? I know that the original was 7.5V @ 1.5A, but not sure of the polarity. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 30 01:57:59 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:57:59 +0100 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20161129235121.DE13418C0B0@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <9eca1f1c-5806-8b39-e3c9-54c9a24e8686@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <20161130075759.GS2578@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 08:13:53PM -0500, william degnan wrote: > > I am working on liberating 10 PDP 8i's...but the guy has fallen off comms. Woa! I hope that works out, the 8i is a very nice model. > I plan to make a trip to the location, see what I can do. I don't want > these, just want to help find a good home for them. You are a hero :) /P From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Nov 30 02:03:22 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 00:03:22 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: Sent from my Samsung device -------- Original message -------- From: "Ian S. King" Date: 2016-11-29 7:19 PM (GMT-08:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 5:17 PM, Brad H wrote: > > > That sounds interesting.? I imagine they'd be worth even more than an 8/E? > > > Keep in mind that the 8/I is a fairly substantial investment in space and weight.? Also, if you want to add something, it's not as easy as plugging a card into a backplane.? The 8/I requires wirewrap work. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington >There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon >could go to China." I'm curious.. what do people do with these things? ?I've seen videos of some in large racks being used to play music, etc. ?The rack ones seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 30 02:09:34 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:09:34 +0100 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:03:22AM -0800, Brad H wrote: > > I'm curious.. what do people do with these things? ?I've seen videos > of some in large racks being used to play music, etc. ?The rack ones > seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something > that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today. Are you sure you are on the right mailing list? Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY Cheers, Pontus. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 30 06:22:37 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 07:22:37 -0500 Subject: Homebrew QBus designs - was Re: VAX 4000-100 QBUS cables In-Reply-To: References: <20161129172240.D41E918C0B9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <767506f5-7ade-bed0-2323-af396a1446fb@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On 11/29/16 1:24 PM, Charles Dickman wrote: > On Tue, Nov 29, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Toby Thain wrote: >> On 2016-11-29 12:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: >>> > From: Peter Coghlan >>> >>> > Can anyone suggest an existing, simple QBUS device that I could >>> study >>> > the documentation of to figure out what a basic QBUS device needs to >>> > have and to give me some ideas on how to implement one? >>> >>> Depends. Do you want to be able to do interrupts? Do you want to be able >>> to >>> do DMA? Each is a significant increment in complexity. >>> >>> Later DEC QBUS devices may not be the best things to look at, since they >>> tend >>> to use special DEC QBUS control chips (I'm _not_ talking about bus >>> transceiver chips here) which are of course no longer available. > The DEC Chipkit documentation has the internal schematics for the > standard DEC interface chips and is very much worth a read. > The major advantage of using chipkit parts is space. If you build on a quad wide board then its fairly easy to do DMA, bus arbitration, interrupt chain, and interrupt vectors as its all documented in the various Qbus PDP-11 books. About the only thing I've done is simple parallel interfaces as any other function was available built. Though one of these days a CF "disk" board with boot rom would be handy. that would make a 11/23, dlv11j, memory and self contained disk card a nice 4 board system in a BA11-VA box. Allison From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Nov 30 10:48:07 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:48:07 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 12:10 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 12:03:22AM -0800, Brad H wrote: > > I'm curious.. what do people do with these things? ?I've seen videos > of some in large racks being used to play music, etc. ?The rack ones > seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something > that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today. Are you sure you are on the right mailing list? Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY > Cheers, >Pontus. Haha. I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights 'practical', though it is very cool. I'm just trying to get out of the home computer collector mindset. We buy machines that can do all sorts of things, especially games with graphics. And when we're done we can simply move them aside or tuck them in a closet. A PDP with racks and all that, not exactly portable. :) So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 30 10:56:55 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 08:56:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: >> I'm curious.. what do people do with these things? ?I've seen videos >> of some in large racks being used to play music, etc. ?The rack ones >> seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something >> that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today. > Are you sure you are on the right mailing list? > Anyway, here is someone controling his christmas lights: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1MDYYvw0cY On Wed, 30 Nov 2016, Brad H wrote: > Haha. I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights > 'practical', though it is very cool. Have you ever seen a Christmas lights system that was any more "practical" than that? How do we define "hobby"? From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Nov 30 11:07:57 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 12:07:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Brad H > So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and how much they > actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are also various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.) And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky old disk drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's... Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that. Noel From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Nov 30 11:15:39 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:15:39 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:08 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff > From: Brad H > So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested and how much they > actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. Well, I have to get all mine running first... ;-) Seriously, though, I'm looking at several years of work to get them all running. (And there are also various peripherals to do, like tape drives, etc.) And then there's the project Dave B and I have to creat new blinkenlitz panels (not to mention SD-card based mass storage to replace those cranky old disk >drives for every-day running, the original purpose before the blinkenkraze hit us :-) for the PDP-11's... >Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to create anything useful. And it's _very_ successful at that. > Noel True enough. I enjoy the repair and build aspect of the hobby. When I got a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. Seeing it come to life was amazing. But I don't find a lot of use for it day to day. Likewise with my TVT project -- the experience of building it is fantastic, but not sure I'd have much for it to do once done. Even my old Commodore only gets sporadic use, and only because it has so much of my old games library. That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one. It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to think of what I would do with it afterwards. :) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 30 11:18:36 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:18:36 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2b045f03-0352-e4c2-6cf2-bae50c459597@bitsavers.org> On 11/30/16 9:07 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Seriously, though, like all hobbies, it's primarily to amuse me, not to > create anything useful. And, like an old car, it's nice to have something around you can understand down to the gate or transistor level. You haven't been able to do that with a computer designed in the last 25 years or more. Because of that, they aren't going to be any ASICs in them, which make 'em BIG. The are also going to be full of cables and connectors, and all sorts of other things that corrode and get flakey, which doesn't happen in the same scale as more integrated computers. But as a device you'd, say, want to do serious development on, or expect to run without a crash for weeks or months, not so much so. From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 30 11:20:06 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:20:06 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > When I got > a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was > like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. Were you born in the 20th century? Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern. From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 30 11:27:17 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 12:27:17 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/16 11:48 AM, Brad H wrote: > >> I'm curious.. what do people do with these things? I've seen videos >> of some in large racks being used to play music, etc. The rack ones >> seem like a a pretty substantial investment in space for something >> that doesnt (or does it?) have much practical use today. Define practical use? Most still can or do produce useful work. After all programming in C or other language on a PDP-11 or PC is about all the same things. One difference is the PDP-11 is really running unix. IF anything its no different than using an arduino to blink a light. What I do: Use them to run old software that still does useful work. Let me correct that.... Use them to run well tested and debugged old software that still does useful work. Amuse myself, enjoy the hardware I can fully understand down to the gate level. Marvel that unlike every PC I've had that crapped after a few years these old machines just keep doing their thing. The above is significant as most of the machine I have were obtained when they were still current or relevant and they were fully functional. So maintenance has been minimal to none. There are a few that I built myself back in the mid to late 70s as well. Allison From vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net Wed Nov 30 11:37:36 2016 From: vintagecomputer at bettercomputing.net (Brad H) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:37:36 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <01c601d24b30$71a55620$54f00260$@bettercomputing.net> I was born in '75 and my first experiences with computing were my Dad's early Commodore stuff. I missed the whole hobbyist era. To me, DG stuff is seriously antique. When I got my Mark-8 boards they felt a little like Inca treasure to me. It's all relative. It's not that I'm unaware of pre-75 computing, especially big mainframes, etc. But given how viciously much deeper pocketed collectors compete for that stuff, and shipping, and space.. really... that stuff will likely always be a curiosity for me rather than something to actually collect and experience. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:20 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Subject: Re: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote: > > > When I got > a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it > operating was like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. Were you born in the 20th century? Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern. From pontus at Update.UU.SE Wed Nov 30 11:45:36 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 18:45:36 +0100 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <20161130174536.GX2578@Update.UU.SE> On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 08:48:07AM -0800, Brad H wrote: > > Haha. I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights > 'practical', though it is very cool. I'm just trying to get out of the home > computer collector mindset. We buy machines that can do all sorts of > things, especially games with graphics. And when we're done we can simply > move them aside or tuck them in a closet. A PDP with racks and all that, > not exactly portable. :) So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested > and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. > > For me it is really about the learning experience. And boy is there much to learn. It's very interesting to see what is different and was is similar between various operating systems and architectures (and decades). Learning the history makes you appreciate what you have and understand why some things are the way they are. Deaign decisions made 30-40 years ago that affect your every day life. I've dedicated my garage to the hobby. It's a mere 20 square meter so I can only fit about ten racks or so. /P From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Nov 30 11:56:19 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 09:56:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: Howzbout: line the frame of the doorway and the raingutters with rows of lights, with some of them grouped into rows of 8, 12, 16, 18, 24, 32, 48, 64, etc. Put touch sensitive nailheads at various places, including alongside some of the rows of lights. Wire the touch sensitive nailheads to relays. Maybe some programming so entering appropriate codes controls porch light, garage door, etc. Can any of your machines handle a second blinkenlights console? (consisting of the entire front of your house?) From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Nov 30 12:03:12 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 10:03:12 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <20161130174536.GX2578@Update.UU.SE> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> <20161130174536.GX2578@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: On 11/30/16 9:45 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > For me it is really about the learning experience. And boy is there much to > learn. It's very interesting to see what is different and was is similar > between various operating systems and architectures (and decades). > > Learning the history makes you appreciate what you have and understand why > some things are the way they are. Deaign decisions made 30-40 years ago > that affect your every day life. And thanks to the web, the primary sources are getting spread internationally. It isn't something that was even thought about being taught in school at any deep level until VERY recently. What you're learnin' here ain't gettin' taught in school. From barythrin at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 13:13:50 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 13:13:50 -0600 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff Message-ID: <2d55ykj0v3asssa8d0062m2j.1480533230366@email.android.com> Argument goes both ways. Does anyone really do practical things with any home computer?? On the vcf forums I enjoyed two folks who eventually got their two PDP models running chess and had them play eachother. ?I'd like to see a rematch or maybe some new vintage competitors approach :-) If they can run holiday lights they could also probably use it for x10? home automation if one considers that practical. -------- Original message --------From: Brad H So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interestedand how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Nov 30 13:32:15 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 11:32:15 -0800 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote: >> >> When I got >> a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it operating was >> like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. > Were you born in the 20th century? > > Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern. > I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still very glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well. thanks Jim From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Nov 30 15:49:31 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 22:49:31 +0100 Subject: Looking for Philips P2000C P-Systems discs Message-ID: <00c501d24b53$a2a189b0$e7e49d10$@xs4all.nl> Hi, I just acquired a Philips P2000C and I'm looking for a copy of the p-systems disc(s) to run UCSD Pascal on it. If someone has a copy of those I would be very happy ;) -Rik From tdk.knight at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 17:35:23 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:35:23 -0600 Subject: Looking for Philips P2000C P-Systems discs In-Reply-To: <00c501d24b53$a2a189b0$e7e49d10$@xs4all.nl> References: <00c501d24b53$a2a189b0$e7e49d10$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: pic? On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Rik Bos wrote: > Hi, > > > > I just acquired a Philips P2000C and I'm looking for a copy of the > p-systems > disc(s) to run UCSD Pascal on it. > > If someone has a copy of those I would be very happy ;) > > > > -Rik > > > > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Nov 30 17:43:10 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 18:43:10 -0500 (EST) Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <2d55ykj0v3asssa8d0062m2j.1480533230366@email.android.com> References: <2d55ykj0v3asssa8d0062m2j.1480533230366@email.android.com> Message-ID: <201611302343.SAA24126@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > Argument goes both ways. Does anyone really do practical things with any ho$ Depends on how you define "practical" and "home computer". My home network includes a SPARCstation-20, which is my main head (I'm typing this message using it to handle keyboard and screen). I don't think there's any question that the SS20 is on-topic, but is it a "home computer"? I think of it and treat it that way, but it was never aimed at that market by its maker and it differs in some drastic and fundamental ways from most machines that were. As for practical, well, it's the HCI in front of almost everything I do at home, including work-from-home stuff.... And I have another SS20 with a qec in it, which I recently used to regain some semblance of connectivity when my house DSL decided to die on me (it took multiple days for it to get fixed, for a variety of reasons). It sat on my house network with one of the qe ports connected to a friend who had mass-market connectivity; I set up an instance of my cloud VPN on it and it did its job well, passing packets between my house network and my machines on the outside. That certainly counts as practical to me. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From michael.newton at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 19:48:21 2016 From: michael.newton at gmail.com (Michael Newton) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 17:48:21 -0800 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: <27984E55-CA7D-4968-9CF3-7084217A6512@cs.ubc.ca> References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> <27984E55-CA7D-4968-9CF3-7084217A6512@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did find -12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test points. So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad presses. The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display failed. thanks M. On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > (Getting back to this after a couple days..) > > The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in > tracing. > I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14 > (page 12-28) of the manual. > > Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the > board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V? > It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus > sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead > of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label. > The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) of > CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC output > would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the > pattern for the +15V diode. > > As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but > you might check the above and see where things stand. > I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless be > awkward for transport or trip. > > > On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > > I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much. > > > > I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the > same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test > point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just > like the original board. > > > > I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power > supplies. > > > > I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering. > I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely > on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask. > > > > If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get > this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm > trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets). > > > > thanks > > M. > > > > > > On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton < > michael.newton at gmail.com> wrote: > > On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert > wrote: > > On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: > > > > > That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. > > > > From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. > > > > Yes -12v, sorry > > > > > Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which > ones > > > might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. > > > > Looking at: > > 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf > > from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be > truncated. > > The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of > course the power supply schematic is missing. > > (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on > the hpmuseum pages.) > > > > It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - > search the page for "DraftMaster" > > > > The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog > board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. > > > > There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), > which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control > loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the > likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown > there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter > cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, > or even a zener > > regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry > between there and the actual -12 output of the supply. > > > > - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. > > - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the > reg vs output. > > - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the > problem. > > - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the > area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. > > > > > > I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 > > From davidkcollins2 at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 20:06:00 2016 From: davidkcollins2 at gmail.com (David Collins) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 13:06:00 +1100 Subject: HP Draftmaster RX pen plotter needs love In-Reply-To: References: <725C5936-15AB-4877-B833-0145B063E6EA@cs.ubc.ca> <27984E55-CA7D-4968-9CF3-7084217A6512@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: If you have an oscilloscope or logic analyser see if you have a clock signal at the main CPU. If you do, see if your EPROMs are being accessed. If not you may have a clock issue, a bad CPU or the CPU reset stuck low. David Collins (Sent from out of office) > On 1 Dec. 2016, at 12:48 pm, Michael Newton wrote: > > You were correct, I was looking for the -12v in the wrong place. I did find > -12v on the anode of CR2. So all voltages are correct at the test points. > > So the LCD shows nothing and the device does not seem to respond to keypad > presses. > > The other symptom is that I can hear some feeble and irregular clicky > noises from the paper drive motor. So it isn't purely just that the display > failed. > > thanks > M. > > >> On Sun, Nov 27, 2016 at 1:02 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >> (Getting back to this after a couple days..) >> >> The board photos help although not detailed enough for certainty in >> tracing. >> I see the power supply test points on the photos and on the diagram 12-14 >> (page 12-28) of the manual. >> >> Something to confirm: the -12V label is ambiguous in it's position on the >> board, do you know for sure you measured the right spot for -12V? >> It looks like it would be the nice solder button to the left of the minus >> sign but from what I can discern it seems more likely to be the anode lead >> of the diode (CR2), right above the "2" in the "-12V" label. >> The diagram 12-14 indicates the test point as the cathode (banded lead) of >> CR2, this is likely incorrect, if CR2 is the -12V rectifier the DC output >> would be the anode end. It looks likes the draftsman just copied the >> pattern for the +15V diode. >> >> As you suggest, detailed assistance from a distance may be difficult, but >> you might check the above and see where things stand. >> I'm not all that far away (Victoria area) but far enough to nonetheless be >> awkward for transport or trip. >> >> >>> On 2016-Nov-22, at 1:16 PM, Michael Newton wrote: >>> I appreciate the guidance so far, thanks very much. >>> >>> I found another power supply/motor driver board ("analog board") of the >> same part number, hooked it up to the plotter and tested it. The -12v test >> point on the new board read zero, and the other voltages were present just >> like the original board. >>> >>> I don't suppose that proves anything, but at least now I have 2 power >> supplies. >>> >>> I don't have an electronics background other than hobby-level tinkering. >> I don't know how likely it is I'll be able to diagnose and fix this solely >> on remote guidance, and in any case that seems like too much for me to ask. >>> >>> If there is someone within driving distance of Seattle who could get >> this thing working I will pay them what their time and effort is worth (I'm >> trying to avoid shipping this monster or buying anyone plane tickets). >>> >>> thanks >>> M. >>> >>> >>> On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 3:17 PM, Michael Newton < >> michael.newton at gmail.com> wrote: >>> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:10 AM, Brent Hilpert >> wrote: >>>> On 2016-Nov-16, at 11:34 PM, Michael Newton wrote: >>>> >>>> That's right, there is a -5v test point that reads zero. >>> >>> From the previous discussion, presumably you mean -12V. >>> >>> Yes -12v, sorry >>> >>>> Any guidance? Like if I need to pull parts off and test them, which >> ones >>>> might I go for? I'm a caveman with electronics. >>> >>> Looking at: >>> 7595-7596_HardwareSupportManual_07595-90025_168pages_Feb90.pdf >>> from hpmuseum.net via the link you supplied, the document seems to be >> truncated. >>> The document simply ends part way through the schematics pages, and of >> course the power supply schematic is missing. >>> (Aside, where did you find that document link? I didn't find it ref'd on >> the hpmuseum pages.) >>> >>> It's linked from http://www.hpmuseum.net/collection_document.php - >> search the page for "DraftMaster" >>> >>> The document does appear to be missing the full schematic of the analog >> board. I haven't been able to find them anywhere. >>> >>> There is a minimal diagram for the power supply on page 5-4 (pdf.30), >> which shows the -12V supply as an independent (not part of the control >> loop) secondary out of the switching supply. That's good as it limits the >> likely problem region. There will be more components involved than shown >> there, but the diode seen there on the -12V supply will lead to a filter >> cap and possibly a 3-terminal linear regulator such as a 7912 or LM320-12, >> or even a zener >>> regulator. There may be current limiting or overvoltage circuitry >> between there and the actual -12 output of the supply. >>> >>> - identify the -12V componentry in the power supply. >>> - if there is a 3-terminal -12V regulator check for input to the >> reg vs output. >>> - confirm that it's not the load side of the -12 causing the >> problem. >>> - pic(s) of the power supply board might help us identify the >> area or get a better idea of what we're dealing with. >>> >>> >>> I took photos: https://goo.gl/photos/tRWV3ATTqx2R3eDz6 >> >> From w2hx at w2hx.com Wed Nov 30 22:35:31 2016 From: w2hx at w2hx.com (W2HX) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:35:31 -0800 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? Message-ID: Hi folks, What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. Thanks Eugene W2HX From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 23:07:16 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 00:07:16 -0500 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Nov 30, 2016 at 11:35 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? I've been carrying a standard DEC key on my keyring since 1982... > Is there a standard key used for all of them? Nearly all (a custom key was an option - I have only ever seen *1* DEC machine that does not use either an ACE XX2247 or a pinless key, out of many dozens). > Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. There should be _lots_ of info on DEC ACE XX2247 keys including pin depths and even 3D models. -ethan From jwsmail at jwsss.com Wed Nov 30 23:17:08 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim stephens) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 21:17:08 -0800 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4e0f2202-8e98-2d9b-331e-44d7e29fcd81@jwsss.com> On 11/30/2016 8:35 PM, W2HX wrote: > Hi folks, > > What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. > > Thanks > Eugene W2HX Since I'm going to get some keys made, I looked up Jay's posting of keys, three of which we verified from his formulas. Here is the posting from March 2016 Here are the formulas he posted then. I thought there were more discussions about making an archival page, but I did not go on and look up whether it was made up or not. As Ethan said, somewhere there is also a 3d print STD file I believe, but the locksmith numbers are better. **** key post contents **** FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44) XX2065 Code: 1353757 Use: Data General Nova (800,1200,1220,2,3) Eclipse (S/130,S/200) XX2946 Code: 4557457 Use: Hewlett-Packard 2100A/2100S NOTE: The codes above are listed 7-1, and all key cuts are center offset. Still unconfirmed or need more information: Cromemco: XX4306 Code: (Mike Stein was going to measure his cuts) Use: Cromemco Systems CS-1/CS-3/CS-100 J From mhs.stein at gmail.com Wed Nov 30 23:43:58 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Thu, 1 Dec 2016 00:43:58 -0500 Subject: PDP-8e power switch key? References: <4e0f2202-8e98-2d9b-331e-44d7e29fcd81@jwsss.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim stephens" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2016 12:17 AM Subject: Re: PDP-8e power switch key? > > > On 11/30/2016 8:35 PM, W2HX wrote: >> Hi folks, >> >> What are people doing for keys for the 8e? Is there a standard key used for all of them? Or do I need to have one made with some specific serial number of my key lock? I did some googling of this issue but wasn't able to get info. >> >> Thanks >> Eugene W2HX > Since I'm going to get some keys made, I looked up Jay's posting of > keys, three of which we verified from his formulas. > > Here is the posting from March 2016 > > Here are the formulas he posted then. I thought there were more > discussions about making an archival page, but I did not go on and look > up whether it was made up or not. > > As Ethan said, somewhere there is also a 3d print STD file I believe, > but the locksmith numbers are better. > > **** key post contents **** > > FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have been > cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. So to > summarize: > > XX2247 > Code: 5173757 > Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank > (11/24, 11/44) > > XX2065 > Code: 1353757 > Use: Data General Nova (800,1200,1220,2,3) Eclipse (S/130,S/200) > > XX2946 > Code: 4557457 > Use: Hewlett-Packard 2100A/2100S > > NOTE: The codes above are listed 7-1, and all key cuts are center offset. > > Still unconfirmed or need more information: > > Cromemco: XX4306 > Code: (Mike Stein was going to measure his cuts) > Use: Cromemco Systems CS-1/CS-3/CS-100 > > J > =================================== As a matter of fact I did measure the Cromemco cuts and post the numbers, but there may have been some ambiguity regarding clockwise vs. anti-clockwise; if/when I get a chance I'll measure them again. m From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 30 13:34:52 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:34:52 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130080934.GT2578@Update.UU.SE> <01ba01d24b29$87f68c70$97e3a550$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: On 11/30/16 11:48 AM, Brad H wrote: > > Haha. I don't know if I'd call using all that iron to run Christmas lights > 'practical', though it is very cool. I'm just trying to get out of the home > computer collector mindset. We buy machines that can do all sorts of > things, especially games with graphics. And when we're done we can simply > move them aside or tuck them in a closet. A PDP with racks and all that, > not exactly portable. :) So I wondered what PDP guys did to keep interested > and how much they actually used the machine over the course of, say, a year. > > Well using them to do work and also programming keeps it going and having enough hardware to have one different one for each week of the year doesn't hurt either. I also do things like start with a Z80 system, a machine I know well and then say CP/M-2.2 OS and proceed to try and write a improved version that can actually do the one thing everyone wanted then, hierarchical directories, in a larger disk space. When you consider things like ZRdos were improvements and solved the 8mb limit but not the flat directory issue in a compatible way. Will it change the world, no, but its an interesting exercise. To do so means understanding at the most fundamental levels OS and file system operation. As to PDP-11s or any PDP-mumble not all are rack size! The small 11 I have is in a BA11VA (13x12x4 inches!) that's smaller than a lot of current PCs save for the terminal. Never forget everything old is new again. Allison From ajp166 at verizon.net Wed Nov 30 13:36:59 2016 From: ajp166 at verizon.net (allison) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 14:36:59 -0500 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> <7e7a4bff-3573-b42c-7bae-37e8eaa814aa@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <65040a2c-95ba-6558-1b99-288500c986be@verizon.net> On 11/30/16 2:32 PM, jim stephens wrote: > > > On 11/30/2016 9:20 AM, Al Kossow wrote: >> >> On 11/30/16 9:15 AM, Brad H wrote: >>> >>> When I got >>> a dead Digital Group Z80 system, repairing that and getting it >>> operating was >>> like going on an exploration of ancient ruins. >> Were you born in the 20th century? >> >> Seriously, for some of us, DG microcomputers are modern. >> > I was ecstatic to get a Nova 3, but it was released when I thought the > Nova 800's I used were actually getting to be old technology. Still > very glad to finally have a full Data General system. Since it > replaced a PDP 11/34 on deck, I'm glad to have a system that doesn't > make me wonder if I'll be disabled everytime i move or lift it as well. > > thanks > Jim > There is DG aka Data General and then there is Digital Group Inc. They are very different! Allison From RichA at livingcomputers.org Wed Nov 30 14:15:36 2016 From: RichA at livingcomputers.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 30 Nov 2016 20:15:36 +0000 Subject: Thinking about acquiring PDP stuff In-Reply-To: <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> References: <20161130170757.7D43D18C0A9@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <01c301d24b2d$6071fbe0$2155f3a0$@bettercomputing.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AEDE460F@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Brad H Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2016 9:16 AM > That was kind of why I thought buying a PDP in pieces over time might be my > way to go, even if it took eons to get everything I needed to rebuild one. > It'd be fun to try and piece one back together. But yeah, I'm trying to > think of what I would do with it afterwards. :) So what kind of system are you interested in? There is no such thing as a generic "PDP". Before giving up the naming convention, DEC produced 7 different architectures all named "PDP-n" for small integers n (and designed 2 that were never built by DEC): PDP-1: 18 bits, 6 instruction + 12 address (System Modules) PDP-2: 24 bits (design only) (System Modules) PDP-3: 36 bits (design only) (System Modules) PDP-4: 18 bits, 5 instruction + 13 address (System Modules) PDP-5: 12 bits (System Modules) PDP-6: 36 bits, 9 instruction, 9 AC+index+indirect, 18 address (mainframe) PDP-7: 18 bits (PDP-4 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-8: 12 bits (PDP-5 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-9: 18 bits (PDP-7 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-10: 36 bits (PDP-6 upwards compatible) (mainframe) PDP-11: 16 bits (FlipChips) PDP-12: 12 bits (PDP-8 + LINC compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-14: 12 bits (NOT compatible with the PDP-8 family) (FlipChips) PDP-15: 18 bits (PDP-9 upwards compatible) (FlipChips) PDP-16: register-transfer module machine, with 8-, 12- or 16-bit memory as needed for particular application design. Later members of each family were designated by suffixes (e.g. 8/i, 8/e, 8/A and 11/40, 11/70, etc.) or newer names (DECsystem-10, DECSYSTEM-20). The VAX was the first new architecture from DEC not to have a PDP-n designation at all. Rich P. S. For most of us, I think, "DG" = Data General, not Digital Group. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/