From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 1 00:23:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 29 Feb 2016 22:23:06 -0800 Subject: Needs help w/ diagnosing and hopefully repairing of a DEC Tape Drive In-Reply-To: <008c01d1733c$739435e0$5abca1a0$@net> References: <008c01d1733c$739435e0$5abca1a0$@net> Message-ID: <56D5354A.8010002@sydex.com> On 02/29/2016 01:59 PM, Ali wrote: > In my continuing quest for a 9-track drive I got my hands on DEC > TSZ07-CA w/ a narrow SCSI interface that was supposedly "tested > working". On arrival to me I found it wrapped in a thin layer of > bubble wrap w/ some broken piece of Styrofoam thrown in for > "packing". Ali, that's too bad! I saw the drive on eBay and wondered how well shipping would be carried out. Not well, unfortunately. --Chuck From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Tue Mar 1 01:32:07 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 07:32:07 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <56D54577.6010009@wickensonline.co.uk> There is a copy on archive.org: https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step Regards, Mark. On 01/03/16 01:07, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM > >> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can >> port Frotz to it. > The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 > Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples, > well thought out presentation. > > It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare. (Seriously, who > does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???) > Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy. > > If you were near Seattle, I'd say make an appointment and I'd give you > an afternoon's worth of overview. > > Rich > > > Rich Alderson > Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer > Living Computer Museum > 2245 1st Avenue S > Seattle, WA 98134 > > mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org > > http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Tue Mar 1 07:02:47 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 08:02:47 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> On 2/29/2016 8:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM > >> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can >> port Frotz to it. > > The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 > Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples, > well thought out presentation. > There is a similar document online at Columbia with parts written by Ralph Gorin > > Rich > John H. Reinhardt From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 1 07:12:40 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 14:12:40 +0100 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 08:02:47AM -0500, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > On 2/29/2016 8:07 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > >From: David Griffith > >Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM > > > >>One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can > >>port Frotz to it. > > > >The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 > >Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples, > >well thought out presentation. > > > > There is a similar document online at Columbia with parts written by Ralph Gorin > I think this is the same file, but in HTML-formatted with one page per chapter: http://pdp10.nocrew.org/docs/instruction-set/pdp-10.html /P From fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET Tue Mar 1 07:27:47 2016 From: fred at MISER.MISERNET.NET (Fred) Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2016 08:27:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On Mon, 29 Feb 2016 cctalk-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > From: Murray McCullough > Subject: Techno-savvy... > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > What is a techno-savvy student? Can classic computers possibly give an > answer? I used early microcomputers in my electronics classroom I > taught in the 70?s. Computers back then were rather primitive, not > much better than calculators, but did mimic human learning ? well [story cut] I liked this story, reminded me of my education in the late 80's early 90's - I was the "computer go to guy" so instead of the shiny new PS/2's the district had recently purchased they "stuck" me witth the 5150 in the back that no one wanted to use. The things I was able to make that thing do with just two floppies.... :) > > So what is a techno-savvy student now: Conversant in using a > technological gadget to enhance his/her life? Or being able to build a > computing workstation in high school? Or for simply possessing a basic [chop] Whenever this comes up in the context of today's youth (where they tell me they'll take my job one day) I just have to laugh. The vast majority (not all, as that would be unfair, and I have met some younger than me folks that know their stuff) of youth today know how to USE the device, but not necessarily how to fix it if it breaks physically or logically (I'll leave out that fixing of these tablets/phones/pads physically is usually a board swap ....). As Kirk said in Star Trek II, The Wrath of Khan, "You have to learn WHY things work on a starship." Fred From lproven at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 07:32:50 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 14:32:50 +0100 Subject: cctalk Digest, Vol 20, Issue 29 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 1 March 2016 at 14:27, Fred wrote: > The vast majority (not > all, as that would be unfair, and I have met some younger than me folks > that know their stuff) of youth today know how to USE the device, but not > necessarily how to fix it if it breaks physically or logically http://coding2learn.org/blog/2013/07/29/kids-cant-use-computers/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 1 09:40:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 10:40:20 -0500 (EST) Subject: MM11-U G235 bias/strobe jumpers Message-ID: <20160301154020.CEF2F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, the MM11-U manual (EK-MF11U-MM-003) describes (pg. 3-12) a set of jumpers (W5-W7) on the G235 card (X and Y selection line current generators - those for the inhibit lines are on the G114) which adjust the bias current for the selection line generators. It goes on to say: "Jumpers W5-W7 are factory cut to adjust the bias current to its optimal value and they should not be changed." There's apparently a similar adjustment for the timing of the sense strobe (although I can't find the description of that circuitry). So I have two observations, based on this. The first is that the original procedure for setting those jumpers is likely lost, it's probably only in some internal DEC documentation. The manual says (Section 5.4.2, "Sense Strobe Delay and Drive Current Adjustments"): "Correction of any failure in either the sense strobe delay or drive current circuits on the G235 module that would require reconfiguration of the jumpers within these circuits should _not_ be attempted in the field. Replace the faulty module with a spare G235 module and return the faulty G235 module to the factor for repair." These cards are old, component values may have drifted, and so perhaps these might need to be adjusted - but we'll need to work out a procedures for doing so, if so. We _do_ seem to have a test to know _if_ the bias current is properly adjusted - see Section 5.3.4, "Drive Current Checks", and also for the strobe delay (Section 5.3.3, "Sense Strobe Delay Checks"). So I guess in theory, if a G235 card fails one of these tests, we could change the smallest value jumper, and see if that made things worse or better, and then loop. So perhaps all is not lost. The second is that I was worried that these boards were 'tuned' to be part of a set. E.g. one of the components, in the circuit that the W5-W7 jumpers are part of, is a thermistor on the core stack board. I couldn't tell if the jumpers were just for dealing with component variations on the G235 board, or if they also include variation elsewhere - i.e. that MM11-U's came as tuned board sets which should not be 'mix and matched'. However, that second chunk of text I quoted alleviated that concern: apparently one _can_ replace one G235 with another, without swapping out all the boards in the set. Which means that the 'mixing and matching' that has happened to these boards since they were removed from their machines (I myself am guilty of this - I pulled a couple of MM11-U sets, and didn't carefully keep the boards in their original sets) has probably not caused any problems. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 10:27:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 11:27:50 -0500 Subject: MM11-U G235 bias/strobe jumpers In-Reply-To: <20160301154020.CEF2F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160301154020.CEF2F18C09B@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 10:40 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > So, the MM11-U manual (EK-MF11U-MM-003) describes (pg. 3-12) a set of > jumpers > (W5-W7) on the G235 card (X and Y selection line current generators - those > for the inhibit lines are on the G114) which adjust the bias current for > the > selection line generators. It goes on to say: > > "Jumpers W5-W7 are factory cut to adjust the bias current to its > optimal value and they should not be changed." > > There's apparently a similar adjustment for the timing of the sense strobe > (although I can't find the description of that circuitry). So I have two > observations, based on this. > > > The first is that the original procedure for setting those jumpers is > likely > lost, it's probably only in some internal DEC documentation. The manual > says > (Section 5.4.2, "Sense Strobe Delay and Drive Current Adjustments"): > > "Correction of any failure in either the sense strobe delay or drive > current circuits on the G235 module that would require reconfiguration > of the jumpers within these circuits should _not_ be attempted in the > field. Replace the faulty module with a spare G235 module and return the > faulty G235 module to the factor for repair." > > These cards are old, component values may have drifted, and so perhaps > these > might need to be adjusted - but we'll need to work out a procedures for > doing > so, if so. > > We _do_ seem to have a test to know _if_ the bias current is properly > adjusted - see Section 5.3.4, "Drive Current Checks", and also for the > strobe > delay (Section 5.3.3, "Sense Strobe Delay Checks"). So I guess in theory, > if > a G235 card fails one of these tests, we could change the smallest value > jumper, and see if that made things worse or better, and then loop. So > perhaps all is not lost. > > > The second is that I was worried that these boards were 'tuned' to be part > of > a set. E.g. one of the components, in the circuit that the W5-W7 jumpers > are > part of, is a thermistor on the core stack board. I couldn't tell if the > jumpers were just for dealing with component variations on the G235 board, > or > if they also include variation elsewhere - i.e. that MM11-U's came as tuned > board sets which should not be 'mix and matched'. > > However, that second chunk of text I quoted alleviated that concern: > apparently one _can_ replace one G235 with another, without swapping out > all > the boards in the set. > > Which means that the 'mixing and matching' that has happened to these > boards > since they were removed from their machines (I myself am guilty of this - I > pulled a couple of MM11-U sets, and didn't carefully keep the boards in > their > original sets) has probably not caused any problems. > > Noel > I have found (oops) that I could swap the G235's without issue, although I had been keeping them with the rest of the core set they came with just in case. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Tue Mar 1 14:59:47 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 20:59:47 +0000 Subject: Needs help w/ diagnosing and hopefully repairing of a DEC Tape Drive In-Reply-To: <008c01d1733c$739435e0$5abca1a0$@net> References: <008c01d1733c$739435e0$5abca1a0$@net> Message-ID: > In my continuing quest for a 9-track drive I got my hands on DEC TSZ07-CA w/ > a narrow SCSI interface that was supposedly "tested working". On arrival to > me I found it wrapped in a thin layer of bubble wrap w/ some broken piece of > Styrofoam thrown in for "packing". This looks very like a Cipher drive to me. Rather later than the F880 I've had in bits on my bench recently, but some parts look very similar.... The technical manual implies these are simple DC motors (the F880 ones certainly are). It appears there are 2 connectors. One going to a cable going into the side of the motor (is this just 2 wires?) and one going to something on the bottom. Since unlike the F880 the arm against the takeup hub is not a tachometer I am guessing there is tacho on the bottom of each motor and that's what the second cable connects to. The F880 motors just have 2 wires. When I had mine in bits I tested the motors by connecting a bench supply to said wires. Those were designed to run at 30V or so. No ideas what your ones run at, but if I am right about 2 wires going into the motor itself you could try applying DC between then (disconnected from the rest of the unit, of course), turning up the voltage and seeing if the motor will run. My guess is that it will. A DC motor rarely goes intermittant in the way yours has. It may fail totally, it may need to be flicked by hand to get it going, but it is unlikely to sometimes only make a partial turn. My next guess is that he problem is the tachometer on the bottom of the motor. That, I assume, is how the control circuitry detects if the motor is turning in the self-test. If it doesn't get what it likes, then it will give the error. I don't know how easy it is to take that apart (as my F880 doesn't have it) but it might be worth invetigating. I set up the F880 tacho arm from scratch so it can't be that hard!. It may be a good idea to remove the motor first. On the F880 you need a special tool to set the hub height if you take said hub off. I had to make said tool (assuming my drive was initially rght). It looks as though you can set up this unit without anything like that, but it is still worth measuring the height of the hub (in some way) so you can get it back in the same position. Have you tried service aid 111? That should let you run the motors. It appears that error 50 is not a generic motor error, it is given as 'No Tachometer phasing'. Since it suggests replacing the supply motor, I think that my guess that the tacho on said motor is at fault is not a bad one :-). Of course it could be a problem with the electronics it connects to, or the wiring, but you have to start somewhere. The sensors in the F880 are quite simple and it didn't take me long to work out what to ecpect from them, the one on this motor may be understandable too. How many wires does it have? If it's 3 then I would expect power, ground and signal. If 4, then I would expect 2 signals in quadrature to give speed and direction. I don;t know how easy it is to take the motor apart (I did the ones in the F880, but they do not have tachos on the bottom) but it's got to be worth a try! -tony From shadoooo at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 15:17:09 2016 From: shadoooo at gmail.com (shadoooo) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 22:17:09 +0100 Subject: Needs help w/ diagnosing and hopefully repairing of a DEC Tape Drive In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D606D5.2040208@gmail.com> Hello, I have two TSZ07 here. As they were sold as "for parts" obviously they both needed some repair. One of the two had severe mechanical problems. One motor had a loose unglued magnet inside, so there was a motor fault error, and the motor couldn't rotate freely, making a rattle noise inside when operated by hand. Of course it was better not to act on that before repair, to avoid to damage the magnet. To repair it I needed to unscrew the reel (in my case the front reel with the loading mechanism to hold the interchangeable reel with the tape), unscrew the motor from the frame, then remove the tacho (very delicate!) and then finally open the motor. The loose magnet appeared to be originally glued to the metal housing with cyanoacrilic glue, so I positioned it by hand aligning it with the remaining glue traces on the housing, held it in place with a clamp tool then finally added new abundant glue all around, letting it to flow under the magnet. Then waited for 24 hours and reassembled. The tacho wheel needed to be cleaned, as the very thin steel growth with some oxide in the small holes, not being optically open enough to work. You can see how this wheel is delicate... maximum care not to bend or crack it! It worked! PS= check very carefully your PSU, as both drives had severe problems on it, they are very prone to fail! One simply ceased to operate after some time, and needed some component replacement to work again. The second one did worst! It did fail beginning suddenly to put out pulsed voltage (8-10V peak) on the 5V. I turned it off within a couple of seconds, but unluckly it fried some ICs on the digital board... It had to change two Z80-serie ICs on the board, to let it finally work... And of course to repair the PSU and test it for some hours with load before testing it again with the real hardware. Andrea From gerry at absoluteimaging.ca Tue Mar 1 17:03:51 2016 From: gerry at absoluteimaging.ca (Gerry Schlosser) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 16:03:51 -0700 Subject: Precision Instruments PI1200 7 track tape drive, interest anyone? Message-ID: <5c8d49932f70395f360650eb087e465b@mail.gmail.com> Hello Mattis, We do have interest in the 7 track drive. Is it still available? Gerry Schlosser Absolute Imaging Inc. Suite 400, 1011-1st Street S.W. Calgary, Alberta, Canada T2R 1J2 Gerry at absoluteimaging.ca 1-403-209-6846 From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 1 18:28:38 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 00:28:38 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Glen Slick Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 7:43 PM > On Feb 29, 2016 5:07 PM, "Rich Alderson" > wrote: >> From: David Griffith >> Sent: Friday, February 26, 2016 4:05 PM >>> One of my ongoing wish projects is to learn to program a pdp-10 so I can >>> port Frotz to it. >> The canonical textbook is Ralph Gorin's _Introduction to DECSYSTEM-20 >> Assembly Language Programming_ (Digital Press, 1981). Lots of examples, >> well thought out presentation. >> It's a shame that Ralph's book has become so rare. (Seriously, who >> does the seller asking $1,441.25 for a copy think he's talking to???) >> Probably remaindered in the 1990s at any library that had a copy. > FWIW Amazon lists used copies of ISBN-13 978-0932376121 around $100. I > bought a used copy a couple of years ago that turned out to be an > ex-library copy. Don't think I paid too much at the time. Still haven't > gotten around to looking at it much. For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking nearly $1500 for a copy. From: Mark Wickens Sent: Monday, February 29, 2016 11:32 PM > There is a copy on archive.org: > https://archive.org/details/introductiontode00step Well, I was going to point that out to my friend Ralph, but I see that it is a different book with the same title, by one Stephen Longo, which has been stolen. From: John H. Reinhardt Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 5:03 AM > There is a similar document online at Columbia with parts written by > Ralph Gorin > Rather, adapted from Ralph's early course notes (he was teaching the class at Stanford for a few years before the book was published) by Frank da Cruz and Chris Ryland. I know that Frank and Ralph were friendly, so I'm not surprised that Ralph shared his notes. From: Pontus Pihlgren Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 5:13 AM On Tue, Mar 01, 2016 at 08:02:47AM -0500, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >> > I think this is the same file, but in HTML-formatted with one page per > chapter: > http://pdp10.nocrew.org/docs/instruction-set/pdp-10.html No, that's an HTMLized version of the INFO file that accompanies the original EMACS (the one written in MIT AI Lab TECO for the PDP-10). So David, there are alternatives to the Gorin textbook. I simply prefer it for paedogogical reasons. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From spc at conman.org Tue Mar 1 18:36:00 2016 From: spc at conman.org (Sean Conner) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:36:00 -0500 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: > > For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the > chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking > nearly $1500 for a copy. I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed. I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original seller selling it for $5 ... ) From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Tue Mar 1 19:11:34 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 17:11:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <8667A115-20B3-4829-BFA2-414B354C8CEC@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: >> >> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the >> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking >> nearly $1500 for a copy. > > I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed. > I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered > the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and > offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will > only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they > will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and > pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller > sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now > they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. > > Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. > > -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original > seller selling it for $5 ... ) For example: http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-for-a-textbook/ I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the specifics of the book mentioned by Rich. From toby at telegraphics.com.au Tue Mar 1 19:19:05 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 20:19:05 -0500 Subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> Message-ID: <56D63F89.4010005@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: >> >> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the >> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking >> nearly $1500 for a copy. > > I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed. > I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered > the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and > offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will > only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they > will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and > pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller > sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now > they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. > > Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. Or more: http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 etc. Remind me why HFT is a great idea... > > -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original > seller selling it for $5 ... ) > From isking at uw.edu Tue Mar 1 19:40:47 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 17:40:47 -0800 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <8667A115-20B3-4829-BFA2-414B354C8CEC@cs.ubc.ca> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <8667A115-20B3-4829-BFA2-414B354C8CEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: > On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: > >> > >> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at > the > >> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking > >> nearly $1500 for a copy. > > > > I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple > greed. > > I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) > offered > > the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, > and > > offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will > > only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they > > will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and > > pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller > > sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now > > they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. > > > > Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. > > > > -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original > > seller selling it for $5 ... ) > > > For example: > > http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-for-a-textbook/ > I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the > specifics of the book mentioned by Rich. > > On abebooks.com, the lowest price is right around $100 with shipping. Yes, this sucks. Yes, this is how capitalism works. :-) I've paid serious money for books that are relevant to my research that aren't available in libraries - one of them was no closer than Paris. (I bought it from India for about $50, and I won't loan it out.) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cctalk at fahimi.net Tue Mar 1 20:13:32 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 18:13:32 -0800 Subject: Needs help w/ diagnosing and hopefully repairing of a DEC Tape Drive In-Reply-To: <56D606D5.2040208@gmail.com> References: <56D606D5.2040208@gmail.com> Message-ID: <002401d17429$1fc0df70$5f429e50$@net> Shadoooo and Tony, Thank you very much for the information and advice. I spoke further to the seller and he wants the broken drive back. As there is no guarantee I can fix this I am going to return the drive to the seller. -Ali From aperry at snowmoose.com Tue Mar 1 21:22:08 2016 From: aperry at snowmoose.com (Alan Perry) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:22:08 -0800 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <8667A115-20B3-4829-BFA2-414B354C8CEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: I loaned Rich my big bag of DECsystem-20 docs, including the Gorin book, from my days as a systems programmer on a couple of -20s in college. Guess I should have taken a deposit or some ID ;) I had some time to kill in SoDo and went to LCM for the first since it opened to the public. I tried to say 'hi' to Rich and instead got my bag of DEC stuff back. Didn't really need it back then. I had been asking Rich about the stuff because I had been trying to get some other docs back from another museum and they couldn't find them. I just wanted to make sure Rich knew where my -20 stuff was. Oh well. I was one of the first outside people to get an account on LCM's Toad, but one day I found my account was gone, so I have been doing -20 work on SIMH since then. alan > On Mar 1, 2016, at 17:40, Ian S. King wrote: > >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2016 at 5:11 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote: >> >>> On 2016-Mar-01, at 4:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >>> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: >>>> >>>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at >> the >>>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking >>>> nearly $1500 for a copy. >>> >>> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple >> greed. >>> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) >> offered >>> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, >> and >>> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will >>> only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they >>> will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and >>> pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller >>> sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now >>> they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. >>> >>> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. >>> >>> -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original >>> seller selling it for $5 ... ) >> >> >> For example: >> >> http://www.digitaltrends.com/computing/why-did-amazon-charge-23698655-93-for-a-textbook/ >> I've come across other articles about this in the past. Don't know the >> specifics of the book mentioned by Rich. > On abebooks.com, the lowest price is right around $100 with shipping. Yes, > this sucks. Yes, this is how capitalism works. :-) I've paid serious > money for books that are relevant to my research that aren't available in > libraries - one of them was no closer than Paris. (I bought it from India > for about $50, and I won't loan it out.) > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 21:29:52 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 22:29:52 -0500 Subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <56D63F89.4010005@telegraphics.com.au> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <56D63F89.4010005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: >> >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: >>> >>> >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded at the >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was asking >>> nearly $1500 for a copy. >> >> >> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not simple greed. >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) offered >> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such books, and >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) will >> only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which point they >> will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to you for $6 and >> pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third third-party seller >> sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as the second one, only now >> they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and pocket $1 profit. >> >> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for $1500. > > > Or more: > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 > etc. > > Remind me why HFT is a great idea... > >> >> -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original >> seller selling it for $5 ... ) >> > I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find. From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 21:30:27 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:30:27 -0800 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? Message-ID: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high color" VGA mode. >From the README.TXT: "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled. I cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the era since ID programmed in support for it. I'm guessing it was cut because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked awful, even with lots of colors...) Does this odd video mode ring any bells with anyone out there? Any idea what hardware to look for that might support it? At this point I'm more curious about the actual hardware than getting this pre-alpha to run with it... - Josh From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Tue Mar 1 20:01:51 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 21:01:51 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date differences?? OEM? Message-ID: > > Date: Fri, 26 Feb 2016 07:21:13 -0500 (EST) > From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) > Subject: Re: PDP-11/20 vd one that just says pdp 11 what are the date > differences?? OEM? > > That's an -11/15, then. The -11/20 has a KA11 processor. So the front panel > just says "pdp-11"? > > Noel > It was an OEM system and has a Applied Color Systems, Inc. front panel. The system is missing all of the boards and backplanes. Someday we will find enough parts to put it back together. -- Michael Thompson From ryan at diskfutility.com Wed Mar 2 02:05:56 2016 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 02:05:56 -0600 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> References: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> Message-ID: Have you tried on a Tseng ET4000, Video 7, or SpeedStar 24X? No idea if those will run it though I have a 24X at my disposal so I can check in a bit. I believe they all have high color or true color RAMDACs though. On another note? a while back I read an article that said John Carmack (one of the Doom developers) is wrote Quake on a 28-inch 16:9 CRT made by Silicon Graphics/Intergraph that was capable of running at 2042x1152. See: The workstation next to the pictured monitor appears to be also by SGI/Intergraph, and looks similar to the Interserve 80, though the Pentium II was not out yet in 1995 so it is likely an older model: I?ve often wondered about computational power might be in that unit in mid/early 1995. The Pentium Pro had not been released yet, and I know Intergraph shipped multiprocessor Pentium Pro workstations, but prior to that if it is an x86-based machine, I don?t think it could have been faster than the 200 MHz P54CS. Regards, Ryan > On Mar 1, 2016, at 9:30 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > > Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high color" VGA mode. From the README.TXT: > > "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) > (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) > (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's > graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" > > I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled. I cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the era since ID programmed in support for it. I'm guessing it was cut because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked awful, even with lots of colors...) > > Does this odd video mode ring any bells with anyone out there? Any idea what hardware to look for that might support it? At this point I'm more curious about the actual hardware than getting this pre-alpha to run with it... > > - Josh > > > > From ed at groenenberg.net Wed Mar 2 03:39:08 2016 From: ed at groenenberg.net (E. Groenenberg) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 10:39:08 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11? Message-ID: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Hi. When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base. I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1 for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70). On www.archive.org I did find both the System II and System 5 user manuals, and the S5 manuals does mention the 11/70. So, did it indeed exists and if so, is there someone who can help me maybe with an image to run under SIMH? Regards, Ed -- Ik email, dus ik besta. From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 08:15:07 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:15:07 +0100 Subject: Free Sinclair QL emulator Message-ID: While experimenting with Sinclair emulators on Ubuntu last night, I made 2 discoveries which might interest folk here. First, the author of perhaps the premium Sinclair QL emulator for Windows, QPC, has made it unrestricted freeware. The news is from mid-2014 but I'd missed it. Both QPC1 and QPC2 are now available free of charge. I found this news via Dilwyn Jones' site, here: http://www.dilwyn.me.uk/emu/ This is the direct download & info site for QPC: http://www.kilgus.net/qpc/index.html They come bundled with SMSQ/e, the final-generation QL OS, derived from QDOS, complete with bootable hard disk images. The second discovery was that QPC2 for Windows installs and runs flawlessly under WINE on 64-bit Ubuntu. :-) -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From ccmpcpg at yahoo.de Wed Mar 2 11:00:11 2016 From: ccmpcpg at yahoo.de (Christian Groessler) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:00:11 +0100 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> References: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56D71C1B.3030807@yahoo.de> On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote: > Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was > unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high > color" VGA mode. From the README.TXT: > > "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) > (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) > (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's > graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" > Do you have a link to this version? regards, chris From ryan at hack.net Wed Mar 2 11:01:52 2016 From: ryan at hack.net (Ryan K. Brooks) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:01:52 -0600 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: <56D71C1B.3030807@yahoo.de> References: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> <56D71C1B.3030807@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <56D71C80.9070708@hack.net> On 3/2/16 11:00 AM, Christian Groessler wrote: > > On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was >> unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high >> color" VGA mode. From the README.TXT: >> >> "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) >> (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) >> (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's >> graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" How about asking Carmack on twitter? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 2 11:20:52 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:20:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11? In-Reply-To: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, E. Groenenberg wrote: > When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information > of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base. > > I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1 > for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70). I have original distribution tapes of AT&T UNIX System V - Release 2.0 for the PDP-11 including sources :-) The distribution appears to be from 1984. Christian From r_a_feldman at hotmail.com Wed Mar 2 12:25:16 2016 From: r_a_feldman at hotmail.com (Robert Feldman) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:25:16 +0000 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >Message: 12 >Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2016 19:30:27 -0800 >From: Josh Dersch >Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? > >Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was unearthed >(dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high color" VGA mode. >From the README.TXT: > > "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) > (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) > (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's > graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" > >I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) >and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled. I >cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing >anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the >era since ID programmed in support for it. I'm guessing it was cut >because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked >awful, even with lots of colors...) > >Does this odd video mode ring any bells with anyone out there? Any idea >what hardware to look for that might support it? At this point I'm more >curious about the actual hardware than getting this pre-alpha to run >with it... > >- Josh Try sending a message to Jim Leonard (trixter at oldskool.org). He has done a lot of work with old PC graphics modes and might know about this mode. Bob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 2 12:32:47 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:32:47 +0000 Subject: PDP8 front panel - Shipping. Message-ID: <56D731CF.80508@btinternet.com> Hi Guys I have now seen the production batch of 8/e A and B. panels. They will ship next week after inspection and packing. 8/f and 8/m will be next up. If you have placed an order for any of the above please confirm your shipping address. When I switched to the textured front I ordered a few more blank panels. Depending on the yeild after final inspection there may be a few extras available. Regards Rod From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 2 12:45:15 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:45:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: >> I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) >> and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled. I >> cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing >> anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of the >> era since ID programmed in support for it. I'm guessing it was cut >> because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked >> awful, even with lots of colors...) VGA has analog RGB signals. VGA card uses DAC chip, 8 bit would give the 256 color and 16 bit would give the 65536, and 24 bit would give the 16.7 million color depth. RAM was a big issue as well on these cards, since more memory needed to store color info. The one thing I would wonder is -- even if some video card had the ability to sacrifice resolution for color depth (reconfigurable RAMDAC?) -- were the textures and tiles in Doom supplied in true color/16 bit color or were they 256 colors? -- Ethan O'Toole From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 2 12:47:27 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 10:47:27 -0800 Subject: Techno-savvy... In-Reply-To: References: <56D44AEA.4000209@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: On Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 6:22 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > "Or "the family member you go to when you can't print"." > > A functional niche definition, for sure. "When you can't get your email" is > equivalent. > Involuntary Helpdesk. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From toby at telegraphics.com.au Wed Mar 2 13:00:10 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:00:10 -0500 Subject: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11? In-Reply-To: References: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <56D7383A.8030507@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-03-02 12:20 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, E. Groenenberg wrote: >> When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information >> of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base. >> >> I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1 >> for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70). > > I have original distribution tapes of AT&T UNIX System V - Release 2.0 > for the PDP-11 including sources :-) The distribution appears to be from > 1984. Sounds like something that would be good to have archived and accessible :-) --Toby > > Christian > From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Mar 2 13:04:16 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:04:16 +0000 Subject: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <8667A115-20B3-4829-BFA2-414B354C8CEC@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC264B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Alan Perry Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2016 7:22 PM > I was one of the first outside people to get an account on LCM's Toad, but > one day I found my account was gone, so I have been doing -20 work on SIMH > since then. ************************************************************************ toad-2a at Living Computer Museum, TOPS-20 Monitor 7(110131)-1 WELCOME TO LIVING COMPUTER MUSEUM'S TOAD-2 SYSTEM RUNNING TOPS-20! PLEASE NOTE that closing a terminal window or program DOES NOT log you off of the system. You must use the LOGOUT or KILL command at the @ prompt before ending the terminal program to log out. @finger perry ALANP Alan Perry ALANP not logged in Last login Thu 3-May-2012 1:20PM No new mail, never read [No plan] @ ************************************************************************ Your account is right where you left it. (OK, a year ago we migrated from the Toad-1 to a Toad-2 to save wear and tear on the 20 year old SCSI disk, but no accounts were lost.) Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From anders.k.nelson at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 13:16:18 2016 From: anders.k.nelson at gmail.com (Anders Nelson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:16:18 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? Message-ID: Hi all, I found switch levers and a mounting frame design ( http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable. Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to just paint a 3D print of these? Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit micro as opposed to the HD6120. I await your thoughts! -- Anders Nelson +1 (517) 775-6129 www.erogear.com From north at alum.mit.edu Wed Mar 2 13:31:41 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 11:31:41 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D73F9D.2020104@alum.mit.edu> On 3/2/2016 11:16 AM, Anders Nelson wrote: > I found switch levers and a mounting frame design ( > http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted > with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable. > > Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection > molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to > just paint a 3D print of these? > > Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would > love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my > emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit > micro as opposed to the HD6120. > > I await your thoughts! Have you seen this: http://obsolescence.wix.com/obsolescence#!pidp-8/cbie It might just satisfy your 'need' (and there are a lot more blinkin' lights on the 8i then on the 8e). If this is not quite right, the basic design may make a good jumping off point to get to an 8e variation. Oscar's design is a scaled (~2/3) configuration, so it is not an 'exact' replica per se. There is another project in the works to create exact PDP-8e/f/m etc replica front panels (Rob Smallwood IIRC) but I believe that is the acrylic panel only, nothing else. You need to supply all the other 8e parts yourself. Don From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 2 13:59:44 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:59:44 -0000 Subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <56D63F89.4010005@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <036f01d174be$112041f0$3360c5d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > degnan > Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was > RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development > machine)] > > On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > > > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > >> > >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: > >>> > >>> > >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded > >>> at > the > >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was > >>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy. > >> > >> > >> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not > >> simple > greed. > >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) > offered > >> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such > >> books, > and > >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) > >> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which > >> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to > >> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third > >> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as > >> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for it and > pocket $1 profit. > >> > >> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for > $1500. > > > > > > Or more: > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 > > etc. > > > > Remind me why HFT is a great idea... > > > >> > >> -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the original > >> seller selling it for $5 ... ) > >> > > > > I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find. I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-programming/dp/B0007AJF54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456948533&sr=8-1&keywords=singer+decsystem. This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I must have used other resources to help me along that I no longer recall. The book is available at a much more reasonable price than the Gorin book (which I don't have). Regards Rob From imp at bsdimp.com Wed Mar 2 14:07:45 2016 From: imp at bsdimp.com (Warner Losh) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:07:45 -0700 Subject: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)] In-Reply-To: <036f01d174be$112041f0$3360c5d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECBFC66@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <56D592F7.3080801@yahoo.com> <20160301131240.GH6183@Update.UU.SE> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC097B@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <20160302003600.GC28668@brevard.conman.org> <56D63F89.4010005@telegraphics.com.au> <036f01d174be$112041f0$3360c5d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of william > > degnan > > Sent: 02 March 2016 03:30 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Algorithmic pricing gone critical - Re: PDP-10 programming > [was > > RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development > > machine)] > > > > On Mar 1, 2016 8:19 PM, "Toby Thain" wrote: > > > > > > On 2016-03-01 7:36 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > >> > > >> It was thus said that the Great Rich Alderson once stated: > > >>> > > >>> > > >>> For most hobbyists, even $100 is too much. I was simply astounded > > >>> at > > the > > >>> chutzpah of the seller--right there on the Amazon list--who was > > >>> asking nearly $1500 for a copy. > > >> > > >> > > >> I think that comes from an unchecked computer algorithm, not > > >> simple > > greed. > > >> I think what's happening here is someone (some Amazon third party) > > offered > > >> the book for, say, $5. Another third party scans Amazon for such > > >> books, > > and > > >> offers it for say, $6, with the hope that you (the potential buyer) > > >> will only see their their offer for $6 and buy from them, at which > > >> point they will buy it for $5 from the original seller, sell it to > > >> you for $6 and pocket the $1 profit. The problem comes when a third > > >> third-party seller sees the offer for $6 and does the same thing as > > >> the second one, only now they're offering it for $7, will pay $6 for > it and > > pocket $1 profit. > > >> > > >> Keep repeating that process and you end up with books selling for > > $1500. > > > > > > > > > Or more: > > > http://www.michaeleisen.org/blog/?p=358 > > > etc. > > > > > > Remind me why HFT is a great idea... > > > > > >> > > >> -spc (Who knows? If you keep searching, you might find the > original > > >> seller selling it for $5 ... ) > > >> > > > > > > > I would think pdp 10 original books / manuals are hard to find. > > I still have my copy of the book by Michael Singer: > http://www.amazon.co.uk/Introduction-DECsystem-10-assembler-language-programming/dp/B0007AJF54/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1456948533&sr=8-1&keywords=singer+decsystem. > This is the book I used to program a DECSYSTEM20 in assembler, although I > must have used other resources to help me along that I no longer recall. > The book is available at a much more reasonable price than the Gorin book > (which I don't have). > There's at least two others available from Amazon US for < US$15. Warner From admin at meiner.ch Wed Mar 2 10:18:21 2016 From: admin at meiner.ch (Martin Meiner) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:18:21 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Hi guys... I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you. Could someone point me to the right direction? Thanks a lot, Martin From tmv713 at cryptolab.net Wed Mar 2 13:36:27 2016 From: tmv713 at cryptolab.net (Tedd Martin Vazquez) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 19:36:27 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation Message-ID: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming. I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I get in touch with something related to old computing. I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to get this software running in the emulator. I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get. Hope my question doesn't bother people, thanks :) Tedd Vazquez. -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a? C++++>$ UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M !V PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ DI++(+++) D+ G++ e* h* !r z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 14:39:06 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:39:06 -0500 Subject: Mobile Web Site Technology to Revive Old Browers Message-ID: I noticed today that web sites that are screen width responsive and device independent are also "responsive" to really old browsers like Netscape 2.0 running on a Windows 3.11 box. The whole push to make web sites mobile friendly has had the unintended consequence of making Windows 3.11 web browsing a little more practical than before. The only issue I found is with javascript, one has best results if turned off entirely. Sites load pretty quick as a lot of the overhead if not transmitted by the server, perceiving the download is to a mobile or limited device. If you get the chance and run an older browser on an older OS my site is a pretty good example of a modern site design that works in Windows 3.11 / Netscape or Alpha / Mosaic etc. Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 2 15:02:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:02:25 -0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd > Martin Vazquez > Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Subject: Pdp-10 emulation > > Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with > the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of > the GNU project, so is quite charming. > > I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I get in > touch with something related to old computing. > > I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess > around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to > get this software running in the emulator. > > I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get. > > Hope my question doesn't bother people, > thanks :) > Tedd Vazquez. > > -- > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: > a? > C++++>$ > UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M > !V > PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ > DI++(+++) > D+ G++ e* h* !r z? > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ Regards Rob From tmv713 at cryptolab.net Wed Mar 2 15:50:11 2016 From: tmv713 at cryptolab.net (Tedd Martin Vazquez) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:50:11 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> Robert Jarratt: > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd >> Martin Vazquez >> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org >> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation >> >> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with >> the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of >> the GNU project, so is quite charming. >> >> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I get in >> touch with something related to old computing. >> >> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess >> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to >> get this software running in the emulator. >> >> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get. >> >> Hope my question doesn't bother people, >> thanks :) >> Tedd Vazquez. >> >> -- >> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- >> Version: 3.1 >> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: >> a? >> C++++>$ >> UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M >> !V >> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ >> DI++(+++) >> D+ G++ e* h* !r z? >> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ > > Regards > > Rob > > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not getting how it works? Thank you? -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a? C++++>$ UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M !V PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ DI++(+++) D+ G++ e* h* !r z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Mar 2 15:50:31 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:50:31 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC28AB@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Robert Jarratt Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:02 PM > From: Tedd Martin Vazquez > Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36 >> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get >> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine >> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming. >> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life >> that I get in touch with something related to old computing. >> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess >> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to >> get this software running in the emulator. > I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with > software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ Specifically, you want the following tapes: BB-D867E-BM TOPS-20 V4.1 2020 INSTL BB-D868E-BM T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 1/2 BB-V895A-BM T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 2/2 You also want to pick up the Software Installation Guide from Bitsavers.org. It's the only file in the following directory: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS-20/V4.1_Feb83/ If you want real EMACS and the associated TECO, that's also available at Trailing Edge. Do not accept shortcuts. Read the manual, then worry about attaching the tape images to SimH. TOPS-20 v4.1 is the last to run on the KS-10 (which is the only member of the PDP-10 family that SimH emulates), so don't bother with any later versions. NB: You can also get Tops-10, but it's not nearly as much fun as TOPS-20. ITS used to be more readily available, but it's hard to get hold of these days and you really need to know how the architecture works before diving into it. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 2 16:28:39 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 16:28:39 -0600 Subject: Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest Message-ID: <000601d174d2$deb9ae80$9c2d0b80$@classiccmp.org> I restored my 8E cpu to running condition years ago, but never got around to the rest of the rack. Mainly to reclaim floor space, I'm getting the peripherals I always meant to go with that system into the dual rack and wanted to ask a few questions... Dual bay H967, items to go in are PDP-8E, PC04, TU56, RK05, and possibly an RX01/02. Pictures at: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25079374039 and https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25152416940 But the rack has two nice looking doors, example: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/22605790200 (the TU10 and TM11 is being traded off, so the left rack in that picture is an empty one now but I still have both "doors"). I'd like to keep the two doors, but will not be able to fit all the devices above in. May just hook up an "external" RX02 (I have one in a DEC roll-around cart), or perhaps one would fit behind one of those mustard colored doors, I dunno. Hate covering a nice peripheral up behind a door. Might put everything in the left rack, get rid of the bottom door, and just use standard filler panels. Current plan is cpu in right bay, pc04 underneath. Left bay would be TU56 & RK05 (and RX02 if I lose the door). What would you all do for something that is as period-correct as possible? I looked closely at the sloped panels at the top of each cabinet. It looks like the yellow trim/logo is actually a plate that slides into the bezel. The one on the right is just yellow, but has a white border screened on it. The one on the left has no plate, so it's just "white". What is the chance that anyone has one of those yellow plates, perhaps one that actually says "DEC" on it? I'd be highly interested. Failing that, at least one that matches the other (yellow with a white border). Anyone have one laying around? I'd have never thought I could run out of official DEC slides, but it appears that I have (at least for older DEC items). I need to rack the RK05 and the TU56. On the RK05 - does anyone have a spare set of slides or can I definitely just use RL02 slides (which I have lots of)? I have the wide grey inner slides on the RK05 but no outers and I noticed just one of the inner slides has a gold L-catch release on it so I'm wondering if there's anything special about RK05 slides. Thanks in advance! J From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 2 16:32:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 22:32:36 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: <56D76A04.6010904@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Having got 8/e (A & B) plus 8/f and 8/m into production its time I made a few comments. The aim has always been to reproduce the original panels using the process DEC used all those years ago. Needless to say we had to go through the learning curve with only photographs, scans and one 8/m original panel to go on. In the interests of origiality I have kept what we used call 'features' as found in the documentation and the sample we had. I'm trying to reproduce the original, not produce an improved or fixed version. The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: 1. The original versions would have been drawn twice full size by hand on matt paper in indian ink. One sheet per colo(u)r would have been requred. They would then have used a process camera to reduce to one to one positive masters on clear acetate film. The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked in no longer exist. I used to do just that in the early '70's but whats weird is where I worked is less than 50 yards from the silk screen studio doing the work now. Now I use Inkscape and its layers to do the same thing. The screeners have an Epson printer the size of a piano to print my layers in black onto clear film. After that the process is the same as it was. They take a fine meshed cloth streched onto a frame. Its coated (by hand) with a photo sensitive emulsion, when dry it gets exposed through the master using a UV light source. The the parts proteced by black on the master are water soluable and get washed out and hence let the ink through. So one screen per layer is required 2. DEC would have printed the images first and routed or milled the holes using some kind jig later. As long as the hole stayed inside the white line that was deemed to be OK. We drill (laser cut) first and screen afterwards. Regards Rod From steven at malikoff.com Wed Mar 2 16:50:58 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:50:58 +1000 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Well, it started with 'Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU'... A few weeks ago you saw some poor quality photos Jay posted from someone who had found a PDP-11 of some sort. It seems no-one could identify it or the ancillary equipment at the time. As it happened to be located here in Oz, and only in the next state, I thought it was worth a gamble on going to rescue it even though it was hundreds of kays/miles away and would mean a few days driving. So I took last Thursday and Friday off work to drive down in my ute from Brisbane to the gear's location. I drove the inland highway and just camped along the way each evening. The weather was very warm and pleasant. During the evenings the mozzies were out in force, biting. Arriving at the location first thing Saturday morning (as I had camped the second night nearby) I was shown the horse stables where the gear was stored. It was near an entrance and the top of the rack was covered with a tarp. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_01.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_02.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_03.jpg The rack was sitting directly on the dirt floor. The stables hadn't been used for decades as such and there was a lot of mouse and other animal droppings on everything. The front of the rack was against some horse tying-up posts so we got to work levering it away from them to get to the front, for which I had brought gloves. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_04.jpg At this point I realised what I was looking at. It was a Foxboro Fox 2 computer, essentially a rebadged PDP-11/20. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_05.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_06.jpg A while ago I had by chance downloaded and looked at the very same brochure for this machine, I think perhaps because it had been mentioned here. So I was able to identify it immediately. This is that brochure: http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox2-30.1972.102646170.pdf The cabinet was about two and a half 19" rack-widths wide, painted lime green and with custom industrial control equipment to the left and the computer, paper tape reader and expansion box in the right. The half width section contained a series of power supplies. almost all cables had Winchester MRAC connectors on them (visible in the original photos, and I happened to have a need for some for my Diablos). There were no peripherals of any sort apart from the paper tape reader and the custom A-D I/O. No disc drives nor the fabulous drum shown in the brochure. At the bottom of the computer rack section there was a very sad PDP-11/05, missing its console, and full of mud. Being at the bottom it had been flooded over the years and was silted up. It had a cable to the BA-11 expansion cabinet. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_07.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_08.jpg I started by removing the 11/05, as there was a (very very) slim chance I might be able to use it for some spares, and I had a need for the BC-5 Power Control Unit in the chassis anyway. This machine was not on rack slides but just lying on the bottom on the dirt. Surprisingly the paper label on the top panel was still partly legible, considering the immersion. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_12.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_13.jpg Next I worked on removing the BA-11. It was pretty much empty with only a small Unibus backplane. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_14.jpg After that I attended to the Fox 2, and before long after a lot of sweating we had the machine out and ready to load onto my ute. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_09.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_10.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_11.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_15.jpg Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each side slide up to reveal the rack mounting screws. Onto the ute it went. There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the smaller Flip Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D and Flip Chips. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg There is an identical DEC A-D on eBay at the moment which shows you what it's like: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-A-D-Converter-/141324598814 The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time to load the equipment before I had to head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't think this machine had them, only the ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric. There was a smallish dumb terminal under some junk, this didn't have any brand or logo on it. Can anyone identify it perhaps? http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_21.jpg Loaded the gear and the unmanaged mass of paper tape on, sort it out later! http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_22.jpg There were removalists boxes of documentation, so many I had no chance to go through more than half a dozen. In the ones I went through, I found manuals for the Fox 2, DEC printsets, printset for the 11/05, PDP-9 manuals, Honeywell 716 and Westinghouse manuals. I found a CDC disc pack that seems to be suitable for an RM03. Once again no PDP-9 (that I could identify as such!), peripherals or any other piece of hardware that these manuals were for was evident anywhere (I looked!!). No sign of any early DEC units such as RP01 02 03 or the like, nor PC04 or anything. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_23.jpg After looking at the Foxboro documentation it seems the Fox 2 ran an application called 'FOXY' which controlled the coking oxygenation plant at Port Kembla steelworks from about 1972 to the mid-late 1970s. Documents indicated the PDP-9 controlled the steelworks plate rolling mill. I have no idea (yet) what the Honeywell and Westinghouse machines did. One curious thing was, I was allowed to take the machines, documentation and so on, but not the rack slides nor any part of them. They were to stay with the cabinets. Yes I did mention they were specific to the equipment and probably no use for any newer equipment. So it's going to be another long process of making or adapting rack slides as I have already been doing for my other gear. As soon as I had finished loading I left gor home. After an overnight rest stop near a nice lake, I was back home in Brisbane on Sunday arvo. Here is the haul before I started unloading: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_24.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_25.jpg I've contacted others about the need to recover the rest of the gear and especially the boxes, so I'll see what happens in that respect. I must thank Jay for putting me in touch with the relevant people. All in all it was I think a worthwhile 1651km (1025 mile) round trip! Steve. (Top posting my reply here - yes I don't normally do it nor condone it, but it in this case suited my lengthy post) ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU From: "Jay West" Date: Fri, January 29, 2016 6:11 am To: cctalk at classiccmp.org -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > DEC Gear available. Unlike most dec gear, I must admit that I can't identify > exactly what this is. Several racks, I was guessing AFT or Instrumentation > Testing. Looks like one or more cpu or expansion cabinets in some of the > racks, and some DEC AD/DA interface stuff. I was left with the impression > that there may be one or more racks that are not shown in the pictures > provided. I was told that racks are in "several different buildings on the > estate" (residential). The first rack looks to be in very bad shape (perhaps > a power supply), but the other racks don't look so bad. > > I am not sure that I can get more pictures from the owner, but will try. I > think that in order to get pictures of the fronts (what we all probably want > to see), the owner would have to move stuff (and them) and would rather not. > The equipment is located in NSW, Australia. It sound like they just want it > to go to a good home. > > If someone is local to NSW Australia and wants to spearhead going onsite to > take a closer look for others and/or pick up the gear themselves, let me > know offlist and I'll give you the contact info. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Mar 2 16:56:34 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 14:56:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <66C9ABF4FD77445F9C0FC277D3BA864A@Vincew7> From: Anders Nelson: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 11:16 AM > I found switch levers and a mounting frame design ( > http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted > with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable. I naturally suggest mine, available at http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php I've done some work to make the fit as close as I can to the original handles. > Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection > molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to > just paint a 3D print of these? I've ordered handles in "strong and flexible, polished", from Shapeways.com. They aren't cheap, but they're easy and they do work well. I've had good luck just spray painting them with an appropriate paint. Shapeways' color choices for dyed parts are OK, but not particularly close to the original colors. If you decide to go with the dyes, you'll want to use urethane floor polish or the like to seal the pores and provide a satin finish. If you don't seal the pores, they pick up dirt, and are a bear to keep clean. Finding the switch bodies to put them on is challenging. > Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would > love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my > emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit > micro as opposed to the HD6120. If you want the actual 8/E PCB design, I've re-drawn the bulb PCB at http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/Eagle/projects/DEC/8ePanel/ Here's the big list of other PCBs I've drawn, for what that's worth: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/boards.php If you're wanting a panel for a modern micro, I concur with the recommendation or Oscar's 8/I replica as a starting point. Interfacing the pi to something behind Rod's front panel artwork would be pretty cool. (Though I'm a bigger fan of the 8/I panel, myself.) Vince From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 2 17:14:00 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 23:14:00 -0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <03b601d174d9$346fc340$9d4f49c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd > Martin Vazquez > Sent: 02 March 2016 21:50 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Pdp-10 emulation > > Robert Jarratt: > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd > >> Martin Vazquez > >> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36 > >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > >> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation > >> > >> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get > >> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine > >> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming. > >> > >> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life > >> that I get in touch with something related to old computing. > >> > >> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess > >> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, > >> how to get this software running in the emulator. > >> > >> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get. > >> > >> Hope my question doesn't bother people, thanks :) Tedd Vazquez. > >> > >> -- > >> -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > >> Version: 3.1 > >> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ > s: > >> a? > >> C++++>$ > >> UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O > !M > >> !V > >> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ > >> DI++(+++) > >> D+ G++ e* h* !r z? > >> ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ > > > > I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with > software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ > > > > Regards > > > > Rob > > > > > > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: > http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html > > Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not > getting how it works? > > Thank you? > > -- > -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- > Version: 3.1 > GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: > a? > C++++>$ > UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M > !V > PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ > DI++(+++) > D+ G++ e* h* !r z? > ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this. Regards Rob From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 2 17:24:35 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:24:35 -0800 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <03b601d174d9$346fc340$9d4f49c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> <03b601d174d9$346fc340$9d4f49c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > > > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: > > http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html > > > > Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not > > getting how it works? > > > > Thank you? > > > I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this. > > Regards > > Rob > > I've installed ITS successfully in the past, using those notes, so it can be done (unless something's changed). However, ITS is a somewhat odd beast - its user shell is the debugger, for example. I think suggestions that you start with TOPS-20 are good advice. It will feel much more familiar, especially if you've used something like RSX-11 or VMS. -- Ian -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:36:34 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:36:34 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: <66C9ABF4FD77445F9C0FC277D3BA864A@Vincew7> References: <66C9ABF4FD77445F9C0FC277D3BA864A@Vincew7> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > > I naturally suggest mine, available at > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :) From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Mar 2 17:43:17 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:43:17 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: References: <66C9ABF4FD77445F9C0FC277D3BA864A@Vincew7> Message-ID: From: Glen Slick: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 3:36 PM > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: >> I naturally suggest mine, available at >> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > > What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :) I had to Google what those were, being basically a PDP-8 geek. (I found a set for sale on eBay.) Those do look like something that shouldn?t be too hard to print. I don't know the magic encoding (or indeed anything else about them), though. Vince From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 17:49:34 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:49:34 -0500 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: On 2 March 2016 at 17:50, wrote: > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time to load the equipment before I had to > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't think this machine had them, only the > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric. > You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its current state (I exaggerate somewhat). The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33 machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit). Cheers, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Wed Mar 2 18:27:59 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 00:27:59 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC2B3D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Tedd Martin Vazquez Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:50 PM >>> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get >>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine >>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming. >>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my >>> life that I get in touch with something related to old computing. >>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess >>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, >>> how to get this software running in the emulator. > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: > http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html > Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just > not getting how it works? OK. If you followed those instructions, you *have* installed ITS. The minimal system created by following that set of instructions is just enough to have something on which to install other software, such as TECO. There is nothing there yet which is particularly useful to a beginner on ITS. When I mentioned earlier that finding installation files for ITS was more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, that's what I was talking about. The old archives have been taken offline, have been offline for years, and are unlikely ever to come back. There were a lot of files containing personal data that was fine in the days of the ARPANET (before the Internet came along), but which very few would care to have brought to the light of day now. I don't want to rain on your parade. ITS is a lot of fun to hack at. It just isn't easy to find anything to do on it any more. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 19:41:25 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 17:41:25 -0800 Subject: 1950s TV computers Message-ID: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> I've been having fun looking at TV programs that I watched when the family had a 17" monochrome RCA set. At any rate, here's one such about a guy who gets shocked by a computer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-pfWhehSB4 Note that, about 3:20 in, the guy doing the troubleshooting on the system pulls a faulty tube and gives it to his companion for replacement. "12AY7" is what he says, but hands the other guy an octal tube--the 12AY7 is a 9-pin sub-miniature. (TV had goofs even then). Other than the IBM Model B electric typewriters, there doesn't seem to be much to see. From 1955. Here's another one from 1956: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE This involves a mechanical translating machine that's been adapted to diagnose and prescribe treatment for diseases. There, you can see the same IBM typewriters, as well a couple of keypunches (IBM 024/6?) and bunches of tape drives that I don't recognize. "Memory coils", anyone? The strange thing is that years later, I met up with a fellow who had worked with Gerald Salton on the nascent SMART system that, I believe, eventually morphed into MEDLARS. Stuff from a time when men wore hats and women wore dresses. --Chuck From alan at alanlee.org Wed Mar 2 22:22:11 2016 From: alan at alanlee.org (Alan Hightower) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 23:22:11 -0500 Subject: Unix System V rel 1 on pdp-11? In-Reply-To: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> References: <19759.81.30.38.129.1456911548.squirrel@www.groenenberg.net> Message-ID: <1442664f187d8cd64648de389b2e4ec5@alanlee.org> In the October'85 "UNIX System V Known Problems List", which is basically a printing of filed bug reports against System V, it lists a 'DEC' version of these SVR releases: SVR1.0V1 (5.0)(1.0) - Initial Release SVR1.1V2 (5.0.5)(1.1) - Maintenance Release SVR1.2V3 (1.2) - Maintenance Release SVR2.0V1 (2.0) - Feature Release SVR2.0V2 (2.0P) - Paging Release Each bug's machine type applicability is matched against 3B20, 3B20A, 3B5, 3B2, PDP, and VAX enumerations. I see a few places where a few VAX11 models are called out explicitly but none specifically applying to PDP machines. So apparently there was a 16 and 32 bit version of SVR2 supporting some versions of both PDP-11 and VAX-11 machines. Unfortunately I don't have the entire manual scanned in yet so I can't search for specifics. But it seems rumors of a pink unicorn abound. -Alan In 2016-03-02 04:39, E. Groenenberg wrote: > Hi. > > When looking for Unix distro's for rhe PDP-11, I did find information > of how to make a System II using a Unix version 7 as it's base. > > I also came across some hits about the existence of System 5 Release 1 > for the PDP-11 (basically intended to be only for the 45 & 70). > On www.archive.org [1] I did find both the System II and System 5 user > manuals, and the S5 manuals does mention the 11/70. > > So, did it indeed exists and if so, is there someone who can help me > maybe with an image to run under SIMH? > > Regards, > > Ed > -- > Ik email, dus ik besta. Links: ------ [1] http://www.archive.org From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Wed Mar 2 22:41:34 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 20:41:34 -0800 Subject: 1950s TV computers In-Reply-To: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> References: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> On 3/2/2016 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > I've been having fun looking at TV programs that I watched when the > family had a 17" monochrome RCA set. At any rate, here's one such > about a guy who gets shocked by a computer: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-pfWhehSB4 > > Note that, about 3:20 in, the guy doing the troubleshooting on the > system pulls a faulty tube and gives it to his companion for > replacement. "12AY7" is what he says, but hands the other guy an > octal tube--the 12AY7 is a 9-pin sub-miniature. (TV had goofs even > then). Other than the IBM Model B electric typewriters, there doesn't > seem to be much to see. From 1955. > > > Here's another one from 1956: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE > > This involves a mechanical translating machine that's been adapted to > diagnose and prescribe treatment for diseases. There, you can see the > same IBM typewriters, as well a couple of keypunches (IBM 024/6?) and > bunches of tape drives that I don't recognize. "Memory coils", anyone? > The strange thing is that years later, I met up with a fellow who had > worked with Gerald Salton on the nascent SMART system that, I believe, > eventually morphed into MEDLARS. > > Stuff from a time when men wore hats and women wore dresses. > > --Chuck Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video. -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 2 23:20:55 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 02 Mar 2016 23:20:55 -0600 Subject: 1950s TV computers In-Reply-To: <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> References: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56D7C9B7.1010000@pico-systems.com> On 03/02/2016 10:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 3/2/2016 5:41 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> >> >> Here's another one from 1956: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33OFJEWUgQE >> >> > > Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video. > Yup, absolutely, that is a G15. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 2 23:29:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:29:06 -0800 Subject: 1950s TV computers In-Reply-To: <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> References: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56D7CBA2.2070607@sydex.com> On 03/02/2016 08:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video. Sharp eyes, Bob! I had completely ignore the intros by Truman Bradley as phonied-up props. But you're right--it is, in fact,a G-15. One thing that I noted was that the word "transistor" didn't seem to creep into the scripts until the 1956 season. --Chuck From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 23:32:29 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:32:29 -0800 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D7CC6D.4070500@gmail.com> On 3/2/16 10:45 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >>> I've tried it on a number of machines (from the 386 era to a modern PC) >>> and they all just end up showing garbage when this mode is enabled. I >>> cannot for the life of me find a reference to this mode existing >>> anywhere, but I assume it must have worked on *some* SVGA chipset of >>> the >>> era since ID programmed in support for it. I'm guessing it was cut >>> because nothing else supported it (and because 160x200 must have looked >>> awful, even with lots of colors...) > > VGA has analog RGB signals. > VGA card uses DAC chip, 8 bit would give the 256 color and 16 bit > would give the 65536, and 24 bit would give the 16.7 million color > depth. RAM was a big issue as well on these cards, since more memory > needed to store color info. > > The one thing I would wonder is -- even if some video card had the > ability to sacrifice resolution for color depth (reconfigurable > RAMDAC?) -- were the textures and tiles in Doom supplied in true > color/16 bit color or were they 256 colors? The graphics were only 256 colors, but the engine provided for varying lighting levels per-sector so having more colors would allow for better-looking rendering. - Josh > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 2 23:33:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 05:33:36 +0000 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: References: <66C9ABF4FD77445F9C0FC277D3BA864A@Vincew7> Message-ID: <56D7CCB0.70209@btinternet.com> On 02/03/2016 23:36, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 2:56 PM, Vincent Slyngstad > wrote: >> I naturally suggest mine, available at >> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php >> > What, no DSSI bus ID plugs? :) In between my adventures in Panel Land I also looked at PDP-8 switches and other items that could be 3d printed. I came up with the following: 1, For replacing one or two missing switch levers 3d printing is ideal. 2, I believe the plastic to be ABS 3. For example LEGO bricks were ABS, They are now changing to a greener type of plastic. 4. Matching the colo(u)r might prove interesting. 5. For those who need larger quantities then good old injection moulding is still the best way to go. 6. Mould making costs used to be high but modern CNC machines can do the job in short order. 7. The split line on a PDP-8 lever is clearly visible. This shows they were made in a two part mould. 8, How many per mould were there I don't know but say ten would not be beyond even small machines 9. As soon as I get to a ship from stock situation on panels I might revisit switches. 10. And finally .. would I trust the Chinese? Probably not! Rod From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 23:37:32 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 21:37:32 -0800 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: <56D71C1B.3030807@yahoo.de> References: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> <56D71C1B.3030807@yahoo.de> Message-ID: <56D7CD9C.3090406@gmail.com> On 3/2/16 9:00 AM, Christian Groessler wrote: > > On 03/02/16 04:30, Josh Dersch wrote: >> Awhile back a "pre-alpha" version of the PC classic "DOOM" was >> unearthed (dated Feb 28, 1993), and it claims to support a "high >> color" VGA mode. From the README.TXT: >> >> "Use High-color DAC (160 x200, but great color!) >> (Only newer VGA cards have this-if it looks OK, ya got it) >> (This may--okay, will--REALLY screw up the playscreen's >> graphics. Just look at the neat colors and don't worry.)" >> > > > Do you have a link to this version? > > regards, > chris > > It can be found here: http://doomwiki.org/wiki/Doom_v0.3 Interestingly, the Wiki has a link to an article discussing the "Sierra Hi-Color DAC" I didn't notice last time I visited. It's from the early 90s, and references the ET4000 specifically, I'll have to track one down and see if it works. I used to have scads of these things but I've parted with a lot of my old PC gear... - Josh From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 23:56:15 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 23:56:15 -0600 Subject: New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing Message-ID: That would be the Illinois Institute of Technology and their "Remote User Shared Hardware" time-sharing scheme on the IBM 360, circa July 1967. Check out the prices - even per-minute pricing on core! http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/IIT Enjoy -j From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 2 15:30:28 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:30:28 -0800 Subject: Mobile Web Site Technology to Revive Old Browers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 12:39 PM, william degnan wrote: > I noticed today that web sites that are screen width responsive and device > independent are also "responsive" to really old browsers like Netscape 2.0 > running on a Windows 3.11 box. The whole push to make web sites mobile > friendly has had the unintended consequence of making Windows 3.11 web > browsing a little more practical than before. The only issue I found is > with javascript, one has best results if turned off entirely. Sites load > pretty quick as a lot of the overhead if not transmitted by the server, > perceiving the download is to a mobile or limited device. > > If you get the chance and run an older browser on an older OS my site is a > pretty good example of a modern site design that works in Windows 3.11 / > Netscape or Alpha / Mosaic etc. > > Bill > > > The only problem is that some sites are pretty much useless without Javascript enabled. Unless it's static content, there's usually some sort of dynamic behavior, even in rendering. -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From saburwulf at gmail.com Wed Mar 2 15:43:35 2016 From: saburwulf at gmail.com (Joshua Stetson) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 13:43:35 -0800 Subject: PDP-8/e - Front panel switch reproductions and front panel PCB? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've been wanting to get some reproduction switches for my 8/e, simply because I have a blue panel, but the orange switches. I would love to get a set of the blue paddles. I would go in on a set if they were injection molded or cast; unless they're some of the higher resolution eboxy based prints. I have thought about just making a silicone mold of an existing switch and attempting to cast some myself, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 11:16 AM, Anders Nelson wrote: > Hi all, > > I found switch levers and a mounting frame design ( > http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:360853) that I would like to have casted > with molded-in color, close to the originals as reasonable. > > Has anyone already done this that I can simply buy from? If any injection > molds have been built I'd love to put those to work. Would it be better to > just paint a 3D print of these? > > Also has anyone created the front panel PCB design? I use EAGLE and would > love to at least have a CAD outline from which to start as I build my > emulated PDP-8/e. Pretty much like the SBC6120 but emulated on a 32-bit > micro as opposed to the HD6120. > > I await your thoughts! > > -- > Anders Nelson > > +1 (517) 775-6129 > > www.erogear.com > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Mar 2 17:33:53 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 15:33:53 -0800 Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) In-Reply-To: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: From: Martin Meiner: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 8:18 AM > I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's > M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you. > Could someone point me to the right direction? Looking through my stuff, I fail to find an M865 or any documentation specific to it. On the other hand, my impression was (and is) that the M865 and the M8650 are just two versions of the same basic KL8E design. If you want to send me photos, I can compare them to the M8650, and perhaps highlight the changes. Vince From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Mar 2 20:08:58 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 18:08:58 -0800 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or other make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can and many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in a 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed. Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called "greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines.. And some on the list can give good advice, some not so much. There are members who's job was to service these beasts. I have had machines brought to me that were basically destroyed and would have been easy fixes if left alone before hand. Please never turn one on unless they have been checked out. Sorry to butt-in but hate to see them get messed up. -pete On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > On 2 March 2016 at 17:50, wrote: > > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to > the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was > > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time > to load the equipment before I had to > > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O > Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I > > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't > think this machine had them, only the > > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric. > > > You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could > probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its > current state (I exaggerate somewhat). > > The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33 > machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR > or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely > worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy > than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the > older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit). > > > Cheers, > Christian > -- > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > STCKON08DS0 > Contact information available upon request. > > From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 00:10:14 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 03:10:14 -0300 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: Nice photos! 2016-03-02 23:08 GMT-03:00 Pete Lancashire : > If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or > other make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can > and many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in > a 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed. > > Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called > "greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name > comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines.. And some > on the list can give good advice, some not so much. There are members who's > job was to service these beasts. I have had machines brought to me that > were basically destroyed and would have > been easy fixes if left alone before hand. > > Please never turn one on unless they have been checked out. > > Sorry to butt-in but hate to see them get messed up. > > -pete > > > > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:49 PM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove < > captainkirk359 at gmail.com> wrote: > > > On 2 March 2016 at 17:50, wrote: > > > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to > > the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was > > > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of > time > > to load the equipment before I had to > > > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional > I/O > > Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I > > > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I > don't > > think this machine had them, only the > > > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric. > > > > > You definitely want that 35ASR. They're absolute tanks, and you could > > probably bring it back up with a bit of oil and grease from its > > current state (I exaggerate somewhat). > > > > The Model 35 series of Teletypes just isn't as common as the Model 33 > > machines (though I think the "rarest" 35 right now is either the 35KSR > > or 35RO; with the 35ASR being more common). They are definitely > > worthwhile to have, since their mechanism is more robust and sturdy > > than the mechanism of the Model 33, since the Model 35 is based on the > > older (5-bit) Model 28 mechanisms (extended to 8-bit). > > > > > > Cheers, > > Christian > > -- > > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > > STCKON08DS0 > > Contact information available upon request. > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 3 00:15:05 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 00:15:05 -0600 Subject: 1950s TV computers In-Reply-To: <56D7CBA2.2070607@sydex.com> References: <56D79645.4020104@sydex.com> <56D7C07E.7030903@sbcglobal.net> <56D7CBA2.2070607@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56D7D669.4070906@pico-systems.com> On 03/02/2016 11:29 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/02/2016 08:41 PM, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > >> Looks like a Bendix G15 at about 2:03 in the second video. > > > Sharp eyes, Bob! I had completely ignore the intros by > Truman Bradley as phonied-up props. But you're right--it > is, in fact,a G-15. > > One thing that I noted was that the word "transistor" > didn't seem to creep into the scripts until the 1956 season. > I think electrical engineers knew transistors were the next big thing, possibly some of them had a few samples that they were starting to work with, but probably few had really much experience with them in 1956. Certainly, IBM and other computer companies were hard at work developing transistorized computers. IBM installed the first 7090 in November 1959, and only ANNOUNCED the 1401 and 1620 in late 1959. So, they really didn't have any transistor machines installed in 1956. The Philco S-1000 and S-2000 were supposed to be the first mass-produced transistorized "real" computers, in 1957. Jon From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 3 00:50:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 22:50:48 -0800 Subject: New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D7DEC8.50400@sydex.com> On 03/02/2016 09:56 PM, Jason T wrote: > That would be the Illinois Institute of Technology and their "Remote > User Shared Hardware" time-sharing scheme on the IBM 360, circa July > 1967. Check out the prices - even per-minute pricing on core! > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/IIT That'd be IITRI, IIT's Research Institute, not IIT Proper (the school), who used a 360/40 to run their student timesharing (remote ASR33 TTYs) in a DOS/360 foreground partition implementing the IITRAN language. IIRC, it was a 128K machine. I don't recall what was on IITRI's 360/50. Background was also available for student use via a 2501 card reader. --Chuck From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 3 00:52:23 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 22:52:23 -0800 Subject: Cables Message-ID: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in need of some 40, 50 and various other cables and connectors. I need some specifically for dec systems so those would be even better. The most urgent need is cables for the PDP 8/A front panel cabling. They are all 40 pin. I've got a unit with the programmers panel, so need cables for it and for the basic power panel. thanks Jim From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 3 01:47:13 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 2 Mar 2016 23:47:13 -0800 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <2F142353-66F3-4085-B515-9B7D135BD8D4@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Mar-02, at 2:50 PM, steven at malikoff.com wrote: > At this point I realised what I was looking at. It was a Foxboro Fox 2 computer, essentially a rebadged PDP-11/20. Remarkable find that - a Fox-2-badged 11 - amazing to come across. Great rescue, although too bad the racks weren't included as that's part of the Foxboro packaging. If you've seen the CHM brochure of the Fox-1 previously, just ran across a great pic of a Fox-1 system with a great view of the X-shaped CPU: https://www.flickr.com/photos/64900616 at N04/23796530491 On 2016-Mar-02, at 6:08 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called > "greenkeys". Greenkeys is slang for teleprinter 'nuts' and the name > comes from the color of the keycaps in later Teletype machines.. .. I suspect you meant earlier machines there - the 15,19,26 and so on of the 1920-40s were the machines with the green keys. I've worked on a 33 and a couple of 28s to get them going but can't claim to be an expert. Have a 15, two 14s (tape-printers), a Lorenz (19 knockoff), military TT-4A, and a 26 that need restoration - someday when I have opportunity. Indeed it would be sad to see the 35 scrapped. The oil does help protect them when stored in a poor environment so the mech may well be OK or restorable. From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 3 02:10:04 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:10:04 +0100 (MET) Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) In-Reply-To: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Martin Meiner wrote: > Hi guys... > I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you. > Could someone point me to the right direction? > We have the drawings on the M865 (the real one). I suppose you didn't find them on bitsavers. Later this afternoon I'll scan them and make them available on our ftp- server. Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 02:21:11 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 02:21:11 -0600 Subject: Cables In-Reply-To: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> References: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> Message-ID: i have extra 8A programmer panels,but i'm not sure about the cables. I'll try to look this weekend. Paul On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:52 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in need of some 40, > 50 and various other cables and connectors. > > I need some specifically for dec systems so those would be even better. > > The most urgent need is cables for the PDP 8/A front panel cabling. They > are all 40 pin. I've got a unit with the programmers panel, so need cables > for it and for the basic power panel. > > thanks > Jim > From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 3 02:33:48 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 08:33:48 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor Message-ID: Morning folks (other timezones are available) One of the casualties in my expiring VT100 PSU last weekend was a 2W resistor named R22, or at least it seems more dead than its twin at R47 which gives a steady reading on my DMM. Seems that they're surprisingly difficult to find these days with none of the main parts stockists having any. Anyone got one or two lurking in a bits box somewhere? Cheers! -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 02:36:07 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:36:07 +0100 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: > > Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each > side slide up to reveal the rack mounting > screws. Onto the ute it went. > > There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control > equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter > in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the smaller > Flip Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D > and Flip Chips. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg > > > What is in picture 18? There is something very familiar with it. To me it looks like the backplane of a PDP-9. The core memory stack in the top. Compare with the RICM PDP-9: http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/PDP-9_Processor_Front.jpg I would be very interesting to see more pictures of the cabinet in picture 18. I also would guess that the the cabinet with the A/D converter (AF01A) in the top also hold a D/A converter (AA01A). It looks very much similar to the one we have with our PDP-9. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Exhibhall-8l-8e-rk07.png (the cabinet next to the RK07) /Mattis From pontus at Update.UU.SE Thu Mar 3 02:54:29 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:54:29 +0100 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20160303085429.GB2230@Update.UU.SE> On Thu, Mar 03, 2016 at 09:36:07AM +0100, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each > > side slide up to reveal the rack mounting > > screws. Onto the ute it went. > > > > There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control > > equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter > > in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the smaller > > Flip Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D > > and Flip Chips. > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg > > > > > > > > What is in picture 18? There is something very familiar with it. To me it > looks like the backplane of a PDP-9. The core memory stack in the top. It has to be, the layout of the flipchips and colors all match! The white strips are probably foam, I've seen the same in a LINC-8. /P From tmv713 at cryptolab.net Thu Mar 3 03:04:11 2016 From: tmv713 at cryptolab.net (Tedd Martin Vazquez) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:04:11 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC2B3D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC2B3D@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <56D7FE0B.4030308@cryptolab.net> Rich Alderson: > From: Tedd Martin Vazquez > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:50 PM > >>>> Hi people? I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get >>>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine >>>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming. > >>>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my >>>> life that I get in touch with something related to old computing. > >>>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess >>>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, >>>> how to get this software running in the emulator. > >> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: >> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html > >> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just >> not getting how it works? > > OK. If you followed those instructions, you *have* installed ITS. After reading I believe using TOPS-20 I will have more to explore, and seems more easy to understand, specially to someone really new to this. > The minimal system created by following that set of instructions is just > enough to have something on which to install other software, such as > TECO. There is nothing there yet which is particularly useful to a > beginner on ITS. > > When I mentioned earlier that finding installation files for ITS was > more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, that's what I was talking > about. The old archives have been taken offline, have been offline for > years, and are unlikely ever to come back. There were a lot of files > containing personal data that was fine in the days of the ARPANET > (before the Internet came along), but which very few would care to have > brought to the light of day now. > > I don't want to rain on your parade. ITS is a lot of fun to hack at. > It just isn't easy to find anything to do on it any more. > > Rich Thank you very much for the information about TOPS, you really helped me, I will try to understand the basics and then I'll see using ITS. For everyone your answers really helped me, thank you very much. Tedd. -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a? C++++>$ UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M !V PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ DI++(+++) D+ G++ e* h* !r z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From tmv713 at cryptolab.net Thu Mar 3 03:22:06 2016 From: tmv713 at cryptolab.net (Tedd Martin Vazquez) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:22:06 +0000 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: References: <56D740BB.3030903@cryptolab.net> <03b301d174c6$d30546a0$790fd3e0$@ntlworld.com> <56D76013.9050700@cryptolab.net> <03b601d174d9$346fc340$9d4f49c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56D8023E.70400@cryptolab.net> Ian S. King: > On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > >>> >>> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial: >>> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html >>> >>> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not >>> getting how it works? >>> >>> Thank you? >> >> >> I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this. >> >> Regards >> >> Rob >> >> > I've installed ITS successfully in the past, using those notes, so it can > be done (unless something's changed). However, ITS is a somewhat odd beast > - its user shell is the debugger, for example. I think suggestions that > you start with TOPS-20 are good advice. It will feel much more familiar, > especially if you've used something like RSX-11 or VMS. -- Ian > I'm going to say that I'm really new, so I thought ITS will have more information and software, specially because of the importance for Emacs and the GNU project, reading the answers by Rich I think using TOPS will be a lot better; I want to see what can I code and if there are more people who knows about TOPS-20, definitely that's what I want. Thank you very much to everyone who helped me :) Tedd -- -----BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK----- Version: 3.1 GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a? C++++>$ UBLC(++++)>$ P+>+$ L++++>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+++++ w---() !O !M !V PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b++++>$ DI++(+++) D+ G++ e* h* !r z? ------END GEEK CODE BLOCK------ From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 03:27:54 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:27:54 +0100 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-03 9:36 GMT+01:00 Mattis Lind : > > > >> >> Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each >> side slide up to reveal the rack mounting >> screws. Onto the ute it went. >> >> There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control >> equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter >> in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the >> smaller Flip Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D >> and Flip Chips. >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg >> http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg >> >> >> > > What is in picture 18? There is something very familiar with it. To me it > looks like the backplane of a PDP-9. The core memory stack in the top. > > Compare with the RICM PDP-9: > > > http://www.ricomputermuseum.org/Home/equipment/dec-pdp-9/PDP-9_Processor_Front.jpg > > I would be very interesting to see more pictures of the cabinet in picture > 18. > > I also would guess that the the cabinet with the A/D converter (AF01A) in > the top also hold a D/A converter (AA01A). It looks very much similar to > the one we have with our PDP-9. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/Exhibhall-8l-8e-rk07.png > (the cabinet next to the RK07) > > /Mattis > > Just checked the list of 18 bits installations that Bob Supnik made available: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/18bitServiceList1972.pdf There is a PDP-9, s/n 209 delivered to Australia Iron & Steel. It had a AF01B (A/D converter) s/n 195 and a AA05B (I am not sure how it differs from AA01) s/n 101. It is also supposed have an extra memory cabinet since it had two memory stacks. There are also two items which I would guess is non standard options: "76 05404" and "76 05426". Check the AF01 you got is matching the serial number. It was delivered in 1969. There are a few flexiprint cables dangling in the foreground. I think those are the ones that are supposed to connect with the front panel. So someone has probably taken the frontpanel. Maybe that is way it is not recognised as a PDP-9. /Mattis From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 3 03:33:05 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:33:05 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/03/2016 08:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks (other timezones are available) > > One of the casualties in my expiring VT100 PSU last weekend was a 2W > resistor named R22, or at least it seems more dead than its twin at R47 > which gives a steady reading on my DMM. Seems that they're surprisingly > difficult to find these days with none of the main parts stockists having > any. > > Anyone got one or two lurking in a bits box somewhere? No, sorry, but Farnell do: http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 The URL I posted before was for OneCall, which you might not be able to use. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 3 03:27:41 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:27:41 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56D8038D.8060808@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/03/2016 08:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > Morning folks (other timezones are available) > > One of the casualties in my expiring VT100 PSU last weekend was a 2W > resistor named R22, or at least it seems more dead than its twin at R47 > which gives a steady reading on my DMM. Seems that they're surprisingly > difficult to find these days with none of the main parts stockists having > any. > > Anyone got one or two lurking in a bits box somewhere? No, sorry, but Farnell do: http://onecall.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10182&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202w&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 -- Pete Pete Turnbull From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 04:25:39 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:25:39 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: Hi Pete, Must admit Opencall didn't come up yesterday in all my Farnell searching, my google-fu failed somewhat. The culprit in question looks like this: On 3 March 2016 at 09:33, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 03/03/2016 08:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Morning folks (other timezones are available) >> >> One of the casualties in my expiring VT100 PSU last weekend was a 2W >> resistor named R22, or at least it seems more dead than its twin at R47 >> which gives a steady reading on my DMM. Seems that they're surprisingly >> difficult to find these days with none of the main parts stockists having >> any. >> >> Anyone got one or two lurking in a bits box somewhere? >> > > No, sorry, but Farnell do: > > > http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 > > The URL I posted before was for OneCall, which you might not be able to > use. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 04:30:51 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:30:51 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: and my premature-enter-key is catching this morning too :) Link: http://onecall.farnell.com/international-resistive/sph-1-0-5/resistor-2w-1r/dp/1692450 The only difference (and I know the pictures are for example only but...) the one I'm looking for has a blue band too. http://f0p.co.uk/r22.jpg The printset has it as 'fuse'. Cheers! On 3 March 2016 at 09:33, Pete Turnbull wrote: > On 03/03/2016 08:33, Adrian Graham wrote: > >> Morning folks (other timezones are available) >> >> One of the casualties in my expiring VT100 PSU last weekend was a 2W >> resistor named R22, or at least it seems more dead than its twin at R47 >> which gives a steady reading on my DMM. Seems that they're surprisingly >> difficult to find these days with none of the main parts stockists having >> any. >> >> Anyone got one or two lurking in a bits box somewhere? >> > > No, sorry, but Farnell do: > > > http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 > > The URL I posted before was for OneCall, which you might not be able to > use. > > -- > Pete > Pete Turnbull > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 3 05:39:52 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 12:39:52 +0100 (CET) Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) In-Reply-To: References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de wrote: > On Wed, 2 Mar 2016, Martin Meiner wrote: >> I am currently looking for documentation (configuration, SCH, ...) on DEC's >> M865 Teletype-interface. Not the M8650 or M8655, mind you. >> Could someone point me to the right direction? >> > We have the drawings on the M865 (the real one). I suppose you didn't find > them on bitsavers. > Later this afternoon I'll scan them and make them available on our ftp- > server. It's online now at ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pdp8e/E-CS-M865-01_KL8E_ConsoleTeletypeControl_14Jun1971.pdf Christian From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 05:36:33 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 06:36:33 -0500 Subject: Mobile Web Site Technology to Revive Old Browers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > The only problem is that some sites are pretty much useless without > Javascript enabled. Unless it's static content, there's usually some sort > of dynamic behavior, even in rendering. > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. True device independence requires a site be navigable without javascript. I certainly am not saying it's easy going for ancient browsers now. I am instead predicting that the new best practice standards for web design will bring forth a more ancient browser-friendly WWW, moving forward. At least it won't get any worse. I noticed many commercial web sites have adopted the new standards including javascript - free navigation. I can say as a web development professional that's all anyone talks about. Google favors sites who adopt the new standards in their rankings. It will be interesting to see were we stand in 5 years. I predict it will be easier to use an ancient browser then, than today. Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 07:03:51 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:03:51 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> References: , <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > No, sorry, but Farnell do: > > http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 > The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of those safety fusible resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. It appears Digikey do them, but only to special order with a large (thousands) minimum order quantity -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 3 07:33:47 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:33:47 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cables Message-ID: <20160303133347.C83CE18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jim S > Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in need of some 40, > 50 and various other cables and connectors. If you're talking about the standard .1" double-row connectors on flat cables, the _parts_ for them (connectors and cables) are quite easy to find (most suppliers such a Mouser, Jameco, etc have them, and you can also find them on eBait); buy some, and make up your own cables. They're dirt cheap that way. (Just use a vice to press the connectors onto the cable; you don't need to buy the special crimping tool.) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 3 07:40:44 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:40:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: Pdp-10 emulation Message-ID: <20160303134044.A9B6F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Tedd Martin Vazquez > After reading I believe using TOPS-20 I will have more to explore Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual devices, etc) - but it is indeed a pretty steep learning curve to start using it. So I agree that TOPS-20 is the place to start. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 07:49:05 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 07:49:05 -0600 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <001c01d17553$740a6a30$5c1f3e90$@classiccmp.org> Steven; So glad it was a productive trip. While some of that gear was obviously pretty severely damaged... the Fox 2 would have been worth the trip for me anyways :) A return trip should be scheduled by you or the folks you were in contact/working with, for the boxes of documentation and for that 35 tty! I do have that exact same paper tape reader, but mine is on a data general S120. On that system, whoever implemented it left off the two tape bins. I got the bins with the system, but there was no mounting spot for them. I guess they figured letting the tape cascade onto the floor was good enough :) Haven't figured out how they fed it though. Best, J From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 07:52:19 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 07:52:19 -0600 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <001d01d17553$e7b0bcf0$b71236d0$@classiccmp.org> Pete wrote... ----- If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or other make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can and many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in a 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed. Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called "greenkeys". ----- I have a very good condition ASR35, but it hasn't been on for 20 years at the least, probably much more than that. I know zero about it (or any tty for that matter). You can bet once I get to that point I'll be asking the tty wizards here for help :) Same goes for a couple ASR33's I have that are actually in marginal condition. For whatever reason, I really want my tty's to run at some point, but they are not super high on the list given limited time. I will get to them some day though! J From tsg at bonedaddy.net Thu Mar 3 08:01:13 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:01:13 -0500 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> Message-ID: <20160303140113.GL877@ns1.bonedaddy.net> Wow! Excellent write up and photos! Thank you! * steven at malikoff.com [160302 17:51]: > Well, it started with 'Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU'... > A few weeks ago you saw some poor quality photos Jay posted from someone who had found a PDP-11 of some sort. > It seems no-one could identify it or the ancillary equipment at the time. As it happened to be located here > in Oz, and only in the next state, I thought it was worth a gamble on going to rescue it even though it was > hundreds of kays/miles away and would mean a few days driving. > > So I took last Thursday and Friday off work to drive down in my ute from Brisbane to the gear's location. I drove > the inland highway and just camped along the way each evening. The weather was very warm and pleasant. During the > evenings the mozzies were out in force, biting. > > Arriving at the location first thing Saturday morning (as I had camped the second night nearby) I was shown the > horse stables where the gear was stored. It was near an entrance and the top of the rack was covered with a tarp. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_01.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_02.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_03.jpg > > The rack was sitting directly on the dirt floor. The stables hadn't been used for decades as such and there was a > lot of mouse and other animal droppings on everything. The front of the rack was against some horse tying-up posts > so we got to work levering it away from them to get to the front, for which I had brought gloves. > > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_04.jpg > > At this point I realised what I was looking at. It was a Foxboro Fox 2 computer, essentially a rebadged PDP-11/20. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_05.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_06.jpg > > A while ago I had by chance downloaded and looked at the very same brochure for this machine, I think perhaps > because it had been mentioned here. So I was able to identify it immediately. This is that brochure: > http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/Foxboro/Foxboro.Fox2-30.1972.102646170.pdf > > The cabinet was about two and a half 19" rack-widths wide, painted lime green and with custom industrial control > equipment to the left and the computer, paper tape reader and expansion box in the right. The half width section > contained a series of power supplies. almost all cables had Winchester MRAC connectors on them (visible in the > original photos, and I happened to have a need for some for my Diablos). > > There were no peripherals of any sort apart from the paper tape reader and the custom A-D I/O. No disc drives nor > the fabulous drum shown in the brochure. > > At the bottom of the computer rack section there was a very sad PDP-11/05, missing its console, and full of mud. > Being at the bottom it had been flooded over the years and was silted up. It had a cable to the BA-11 expansion > cabinet. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_07.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_08.jpg > > I started by removing the 11/05, as there was a (very very) slim chance I might be able to use it for some spares, > and I had a need for the BC-5 Power Control Unit in the chassis anyway. This machine was not on rack slides but > just lying on the bottom on the dirt. Surprisingly the paper label on the top panel was still partly legible, > considering the immersion. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_12.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_13.jpg > > Next I worked on removing the BA-11. It was pretty much empty with only a small Unibus backplane. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_14.jpg > After that I attended to the Fox 2, and before long after a lot of sweating we had the machine out and ready to > load onto my ute. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_09.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_10.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_11.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_15.jpg > > Finally I removed the Foxboro paper tape reader. The tape holders each side slide up to reveal the rack mounting > screws. Onto the ute it went. > > There were some other racks of gear, but all custom idustrial control equipment. One rack had a DEC A-D Converter > in it with some serious cables connected to some backplanes of the smaller Flip Chip modules. I grabbed the A-D > and Flip Chips. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_16.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_17.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_18.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_19.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_20.jpg > > There is an identical DEC A-D on eBay at the moment which shows you what it's like: > http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-DEC-A-D-Converter-/141324598814 > > The I/O for the machine was (I believe) an ASR-35 the bigger brother to the ASR-33. I couldn't take it, it was > wedged in behind the other racks and I had only a limited amount of time to load the equipment before I had to > head back interstate to home. I did not see any sign of the optional I/O Selectrics shown in the brochure, as I > would definately have liked to have found those if I could have! I don't think this machine had them, only the > ASR-35, as no printout I found appeared to be done by a Selectric. > > There was a smallish dumb terminal under some junk, this didn't have any brand or logo on it. Can anyone identify > it perhaps? > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_21.jpg > > Loaded the gear and the unmanaged mass of paper tape on, sort it out later! > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_22.jpg > > There were removalists boxes of documentation, so many I had no chance to go through more than half a dozen. In > the ones I went through, I found manuals for the Fox 2, DEC printsets, printset for the 11/05, PDP-9 manuals, > Honeywell 716 and Westinghouse manuals. I found a CDC disc pack that seems to be suitable for an RM03. Once again > no PDP-9 (that I could identify as such!), peripherals or any other piece of hardware that these manuals were > for was evident anywhere (I looked!!). No sign of any early DEC units such as RP01 02 03 or the like, nor PC04 or > anything. > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_23.jpg > > After looking at the Foxboro documentation it seems the Fox 2 ran an application called 'FOXY' which controlled > the coking oxygenation plant at Port Kembla steelworks from about 1972 to the mid-late 1970s. Documents indicated > the PDP-9 controlled the steelworks plate rolling mill. I have no idea (yet) what the Honeywell and Westinghouse > machines did. > > One curious thing was, I was allowed to take the machines, documentation and so on, but not the rack slides nor > any part of them. They were to stay with the cabinets. Yes I did mention they were specific to the equipment and > probably no use for any newer equipment. So it's going to be another long process of making or adapting rack > slides as I have already been doing for my other gear. > > As soon as I had finished loading I left gor home. After an overnight rest stop near a nice lake, I was back home > in Brisbane on Sunday arvo. Here is the haul before I started unloading: > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_24.jpg > http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/gear_recovery_25.jpg > > I've contacted others about the need to recover the rest of the gear and especially the boxes, so I'll see what > happens in that respect. I must thank Jay for putting me in touch with the relevant people. All in all it was I > think a worthwhile 1651km (1025 mile) round trip! > > Steve. > > (Top posting my reply here - yes I don't normally do it nor condone it, but it in this case suited my lengthy post) > > ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- > Subject: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU > From: "Jay West" > Date: Fri, January 29, 2016 6:11 am > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > DEC Gear available. Unlike most dec gear, I must admit that I can't identify > > exactly what this is. Several racks, I was guessing AFT or Instrumentation > > Testing. Looks like one or more cpu or expansion cabinets in some of the > > racks, and some DEC AD/DA interface stuff. I was left with the impression > > that there may be one or more racks that are not shown in the pictures > > provided. I was told that racks are in "several different buildings on the > > estate" (residential). The first rack looks to be in very bad shape (perhaps > > a power supply), but the other racks don't look so bad. > > > > I am not sure that I can get more pictures from the owner, but will try. I > > think that in order to get pictures of the fronts (what we all probably want > > to see), the owner would have to move stuff (and them) and would rather not. > > The equipment is located in NSW, Australia. It sound like they just want it > > to go to a good home. > > > > If someone is local to NSW Australia and wants to spearhead going onsite to > > take a closer look for others and/or pick up the gear themselves, let me > > know offlist and I'll give you the contact info. > > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 3 08:29:33 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 14:29:33 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/03/2016 13:03, tony duell wrote: > > The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of those safety fusible > resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. Oops, I missed that part of the subject line. It'll be fusible for a reason, so should be replaced with the same type. Moreover, if it's gone, there's probably something else wrong too, so maybe Adrian needs a pair ;-) -- Pete From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 3 08:36:36 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 14:36:36 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <56D84BF4.3000001@dunnington.plus.com> On 03/03/2016 10:30, Adrian Graham wrote: > and my premature-enter-key is catching this morning too :) > > Link: > http://onecall.farnell.com/international-resistive/sph-1-0-5/resistor-2w-1r/dp/1692450 > > The only difference (and I know the pictures are for example only but...) > the one I'm looking for has a blue band too. Nearest I can find is a 1R 0.5W fusible in a pack of 10 from RS (so I suppose you could use 4 in series-parallel in a pinch): http://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/through-hole-fixed-resistors/2671660/ -- Pete From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 3 09:06:15 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:06:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: Cables In-Reply-To: <20160303133347.C83CE18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160303133347.C83CE18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201603031506.KAA08664@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in need of some >> 40, 50 and various other cables and connectors. > If you're talking about the standard .1" double-row connectors on > flat cables, [...] ...then 40-pin can be had as (P)ATA cables and 50-pin as SCSI cables, connectors already attached. Of course, I don't know how hard it may be to find them in a world where anything older than six months is obsolete. :-( /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 3 09:15:04 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:15:04 -0500 Subject: How to route Phase II Message-ID: Thanks to help from Timothe Litt, I have Phase II support, including just enough "intercept" support to be useable, working in my Python router (svn://akdesign.dyndns.org/pydecnet/trunk/pydecnet). Tested it with a KS-10 TOPS-20 setup. I had it do NFT from a DECnet/E system two hops away. Worked correctly including the handling of the text (ASCII) data. It doesn't do all that is required for intercept nodes -- tracking NSP connections so it can disconnect them if the path goes away. Also, Phase II NSP does not do packet timeout and retransmit, so if a packet is lost on the path to the destination, the connection is wedged. I may end up doing a bit more than standard intercept operation and do timeout/retransmit on behalf of the end system. That's cheating, of course, but why not? Anyway, this may help those who have Phase II systems. Comments and feedback and bug reports appreciated. paul From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Thu Mar 3 09:21:11 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 15:21:11 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> , <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: > > The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of those safety fusible > > resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. > > Oops, I missed that part of the subject line. It'll be fusible for a > reason, so should be replaced with the same type. Moreover, if it's > gone, there's probably something else wrong too, so maybe Adrian needs a > pair ;-) I know rather more about this than Adrian has said, so I might as well let on. It's from a VT100 power supply board, it's in the chopper circuit. The chopper transistor has failed short-circuit B-C and open B-E and this took out the resistor (as far as I can tell). Knowing how chopper circuits behave (or don't!) I agree this must be replaced by a fusible resistor. Otherwise next time the chopper fails it might be spectacular -tony From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 3 09:32:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 10:32:02 -0500 (EST) Subject: Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest Message-ID: <20160303153202.17A2218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > I need to rack the RK05 and the TU56. On the RK05 - does anyone have a > spare set of slides or can I definitely just use RL02 slides (which I > have lots of)? All the RK05's I've ever seen used the wide slides that DEC used on their older -11's. So if you have a spare set of e.g. BA11-K slides, you can use them to 'hang' the RK05. The company that made those slides for DEC is still in business, and still sells similar slides; I toyed with the idea of buying a set, and seeing if they were compatible (maybe only on the bolt-hole level, not on the slide insertion level, from the pictures), but the cost (~$200, IIRC) dissuaded me so far. All the RL02's I've seen use the later, narrower slides. Maybe there's some way to attach an RL02-type inner to RK05, but without trying it, I couldn't say. > I have the wide grey inner slides on the RK05 but no outers and I > noticed just one of the inner slides has a gold L-catch release on it > so I'm wondering if there's anything special about RK05 slides. That gold L-catch doesn't ring a bell for me. Maybe your RK05 has different slides on it from most of them? Picture(s)? AFAIK the wide grey inner slides on most RK05's are stock; I just checked, and a BA11-K outer slide fit it just fine. (I can check some other types, e.g. -11/10N, if there is any use to that.) Noel From mtapley at swri.edu Thu Mar 3 09:34:18 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 15:34:18 +0000 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> , <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <3F07BCB3-E375-435D-881D-8DCA552E56E3@swri.edu> On Mar 3, 2016, at 9:21 AM, tony duell wrote: >>> The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of those safety fusible >>> resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. >> >> Oops, I missed that part of the subject line. It'll be fusible for a >> reason, so should be replaced with the same type. Moreover, if it's >> gone, there's probably something else wrong too, so maybe Adrian needs a >> pair ;-) > > I know rather more about this than Adrian has said, so I might as well > let on. It's from a VT100 power supply board, it's in the chopper circuit. > The chopper transistor has failed short-circuit B-C and open B-E and this > took out the resistor (as far as I can tell). > > Knowing how chopper circuits behave (or don't!) I agree this must be replaced > by a fusible resistor. Otherwise next time the chopper fails it might be > spectacular Speaking from complete ignorance, could it be a normal resistor and a fast-acting fuse in series? Aussuming the correct fusible resistor is not easy to locate and that there is room to hang a fuse holder off of the circuit board there? From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 09:46:48 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 09:46:48 -0600 Subject: Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest In-Reply-To: <20160303153202.17A2218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160303153202.17A2218C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000001d17563$e6151b10$b23f5130$@classiccmp.org> Noel; You mentioned BA11-K slides... All the original slides I've ever seen for BA11-K boxes are the "cantilever" slides, what allow you to tilt the unit up 90 degrees once it is extended. On the BA11-K this makes sense, so that you can easily get to the backplane for wirewraps. So were the slides typically sold with the RK05 also "cantilever/tilt"? Is that helpful for servicing an RK05 (never worked on one yet)? J From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 3 10:19:06 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 08:19:06 -0800 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <3F07BCB3-E375-435D-881D-8DCA552E56E3@swri.edu> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> <3F07BCB3-E375-435D-881D-8DCA552E56E3@swri.edu> Message-ID: <56D863FA.3010600@sydex.com> On 03/03/2016 07:34 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > Speaking from complete ignorance, could it be a normal resistor and a > fast-acting fuse in series? Aussuming the correct fusible resistor is > not easy to locate and that there is room to hang a fuse holder off > of the circuit board there? Not a bad question, in my own humble opinion. No need for a fuse holder, either. A Picofuse in series with an appropriate resistor shouldn't take up much more space than the original. However, many fusible resistors also feature a strong positive temperature coefficient which serves to limit current as the load increases before the device releases its magic smoke. If you do take the fusible resistor route, be careful to pay attention to the *type* of fusible resistor. Some are wirewound; others are composition--the former may well exhibit a stray inductance that doesn't sit well in a chopper circuit. For whatever it's worth, Chuck From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 3 10:24:51 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:24:51 +0100 (MET) Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) In-Reply-To: References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Christian Corti wrote: ... > > It's online now at > ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pdp8e/E-CS-M865-01_KL8E_ConsoleTeletypeControl_14Jun1971.pdf > > Christian > I moved the scans in a lower directory .../dec/pdp8e/hard I also added a scan of a clever modification, that the foreowners of the machine made 40 years ago: They had two serial interfaces, one M865 and one M8650 with the same I/O- address 03/04. Only one at a time is active, controlled by "SW" on the frontpanel: "SW" up: 9600Bd - M8650 "SW" down: 110Bd current loop M865 The modification on the M865 is simple, the modification on the M8650 is more complicated as they added also hardware flowcontrol. They added an additional 7400 (E49) on the board. Picture M8650_switch_1.jpg is a first version, which they modified some days later to M8650_switch_2.jpg. Klemens From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 3 10:28:33 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 11:28:33 -0500 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D863FA.3010600@sydex.com> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> <56D84A4D.8050108@dunnington.plus.com> <3F07BCB3-E375-435D-881D-8DCA552E56E3@swri.edu> <56D863FA.3010600@sydex.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 3, 2016, at 11:19 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > If you do take the fusible resistor route, be careful to pay attention to the *type* of fusible resistor. Some are wirewound; others are composition--the former may well exhibit a stray inductance that doesn't sit well in a chopper circuit. Out of curiosity, what does a "fusible resistor" look like? What are the specs? I hadn't heard of any such thing before today. In my experience, film resistors (i.e., the conventional carbon or metal film resistors) are "fusible" -- if you overload them significantly they will release magic smoke and stop conducting. Is that adequate? paul From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Mar 3 10:47:04 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 11:47:04 -0500 Subject: VCF West XI exhibit registration is open Message-ID: <56D86A88.9010909@snarc.net> VCF West is making a glorious comeback on Aug. 6-7 at the Computer History Museum in Mountain View, California. Exhibit registration is open! http://www.vcfed.org/registration/exhibitor_register-online.php?event_id=3 From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 3 11:03:34 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 11:03:34 -0600 Subject: Cables In-Reply-To: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> References: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56D86E66.9050107@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2016 12:52 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in > need of some 40, 50 and various other cables and connectors. > > I need some specifically for dec systems so those would be > even better. > > The most urgent need is cables for the PDP 8/A front panel > cabling. They are all 40 pin. I've got a unit with the > programmers panel, so need cables for it and for the basic > power panel. > Generally, you can make the 40-pin DEC cables yourself. All you need is cable, the connectors and a vise. I do these all the time. (Harder is the DEC proprietary printed ribbon cables.) Jon From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 3 11:10:38 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 11:10:38 -0600 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: References: , <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <56D8700E.7050607@pico-systems.com> On 03/03/2016 07:03 AM, tony duell wrote: >> No, sorry, but Farnell do: >> >> http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 >> > The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of those safety fusible > resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. > > It appears Digikey do them, but only to special order with a large (thousands) > minimum order quantity > > Also check Mouser. I don't know about 1W, but I use a 10W Ohmite fusible (or at least flame-proof) resistor. That is the 40J25RE, and I get them from Digi-Key. Jon From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 3 12:14:49 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:14:49 -0500 (EST) Subject: Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest Message-ID: <20160303181449.AD91818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jay West > All the original slides I've ever seen for BA11-K boxes are the > "cantilever" slides, what allow you to tilt the unit up 90 degrees once > it is extended. Right; there are actually two different types I've seen of those rotating slides, and in both, the rotating mechanism is part of the 'inner' slide (i.e. the part that bolts to the BA11 box). The older one (seen on BA11-D's, too) uses a T-shaped pull to release the rotate lock; the newer has an L-shaped release pull. All three (the non-rotating, and both rotating 'inners') use _basically_ the same 'outer' slide (i.e. the part that bolts to the rack); the outer-most slide (the 'outer' actually contains two parts, an outer and a middle) is about 3-1/2" wide. (There's an even wider 'outer' slide, but I forget what it goes to.) I said 'basically' since the three different versions do include various interlocks to prevent pulling the unit out of the slides, and some of the 'outers', although they are the same size, are not actually compatible with all the different 'inners', because their interlocks differ (although you could probably mod one to fit another without too much work). > So were the slides typically sold with the RK05 also "cantilever/tilt"? Not that I've ever seen. > Is that helpful for servicing an RK05 (never worked on one yet)? Not that I can think of - there are a few components on the bottom (e.g. the absolute filter), but most stuff is on the top. And the drive is so heavy, with all the weight at one end, that I wouldn't want to rotate one anyway! Although the BA11-K weighs a ton, too, and its weight is similarly concentrated at one end. Which may be why they changed the rotating fixture; the early one might not have been good at holding that much weight. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 3 13:16:57 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 13:16:57 -0600 Subject: Building up the 8E system, questions - advice - partsRequest In-Reply-To: <20160303181449.AD91818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160303181449.AD91818C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <000c01d17581$417a7370$c46f5a50$@classiccmp.org> Much to my chagrin... it appears that both the usual (and only) places around STL that used to have bunches of various rackmount slides have finally gotten rid of them all. I am in search of an RK05 railset, and (like this is going to be possible) the TU56 mounting plate and 2 spacers. I know the TU56 can be mounted without the plate/spacers... but... :) J From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 3 13:46:24 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 19:46:24 -0000 Subject: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW-AU In-Reply-To: <001d01d17553$e7b0bcf0$b71236d0$@classiccmp.org> References: <000b01d15a08$08b1e710$1a15b530$@classiccmp.org> <9946019a5f72352c6853d85c93c15872.squirrel@webmail04.register.com> <001d01d17553$e7b0bcf0$b71236d0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <041e01d17585$5f7442d0$1e5cc870$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jay West > Sent: 03 March 2016 13:52 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: Recovery adventure - Re: Unidentified DEC gear available, NSW- > AU > > Pete wrote... > ----- > If you (or anyone here) has never worked on a teleprinter (Teletype or other > make) please please please ask someone experienced. If not one can and > many time has happened is all plastic parts of which there are many in a > 32/33 and few in a 28/35/37 can be destroyed. > > Having said that, if you end up with a 35, join the mailing list called > "greenkeys". > ----- > > I have a very good condition ASR35, but it hasn't been on for 20 years at the > least, probably much more than that. I know zero about it (or any tty for that > matter). You can bet once I get to that point I'll be asking the tty wizards here > for help :) > > Same goes for a couple ASR33's I have that are actually in marginal condition. > > For whatever reason, I really want my tty's to run at some point, but they are > not super high on the list given limited time. I will get to them some day > though! > > J I can only add my voice to the plea to save the Model 35. Also, as someone else pointed out, Greenkeys is the place to go for advice on restoring Teletypes, the list if very friendly and exceedingly helpful. Thanks for the interesting account and pictures. I hope it cleans up well! Regards Rob From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Mar 3 14:51:48 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:51:48 +0000 Subject: New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing In-Reply-To: <56D7DEC8.50400@sydex.com> References: <56D7DEC8.50400@sydex.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC397E@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Chuck Guzis Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 10:51 PM > On 03/02/2016 09:56 PM, Jason T wrote: >> That would be the Illinois Institute of Technology and their "Remote >> User Shared Hardware" time-sharing scheme on the IBM 360, circa July >> 1967. Check out the prices - even per-minute pricing on core! >> http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/IIT > That'd be IITRI, IIT's Research Institute, not IIT Proper (the school), > who used a 360/40 to run their student timesharing (remote ASR33 TTYs) > in a DOS/360 foreground partition implementing the IITRAN language. > IIRC, it was a 128K machine. I don't recall what was on IITRI's 360/50. > Background was also available for student use via a 2501 card reader. Wow. I used that background partition! When I took "Computer Math" (FORTRAN IV on a 1401) the latter half of my senior year in high school, several of my friends from the Chess Club were taking Saturday Extension courses in PL/1 and COBOL at IIT. (They had taken the FORTRAN class in the autumn semester.) I read through the programmed instruction texts for both languages and did all my FORTRAN assignments in all three; different friends allowed me to piggyback on their funny money allocations so I could get my code run. One of my friends was fascinated by IITRAN, too. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Mar 3 15:01:11 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 21:01:11 +0000 Subject: Paging Toby Thain [was RE: PDP-10 programming [was RE: Dumb Terminal games (was Re: Looking for a small fast VAX development machine)]] Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC39FF@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Hi, Toby, I answered your private note, but Outlook/Exchange informed me this morning that it would not send the message for 48 hours and so was giving up. I just don't want you to think I'm ignoring you. My answer was that it's not for me to say, but the author is a friend. Rich Rich Alderson Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Ave S Seattle, WA 98134 http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From phil at ultimate.com Thu Mar 3 15:24:06 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 16:24:06 -0500 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <20160303134044.A9B6F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160303134044.A9B6F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201603032124.u23LO6h6070817@ultimate.com> Noel wrote > Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual > devices, etc) Yeah, ITS isn't user (spelled LUSER) friendly, but it sure is neat! In the past week I was just wondering if anyone has ever written an "MLDEV" handler for a non-ITS system. "MLDEV" was the virtual device that made other ITS systems look like devices (AI: MC: ML: DM:). When a device isn't recognized, ITS launches a new process (job) connected to the "superior" job (I think using a "JOBDEV" connection created using the JOB/BOJ pseudo-devices), running an executable named "@", which looks for an executable (in the DEVICE directory) that matches the user specified device, and runs it... There are "assigned numbers" for mit-ml-dev over UDP and TCP (ports 83 and 85)! I did find this: http://victor.se/bjorn/its/ch11.php Which simulates the CH11 (unibus) Chaosnet interface (presumably for the KS10 simulation) under KLH10 and encapsulates chaosnet traffic in UDP. And mentions the magic file names involved! From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 17:57:09 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 17:57:09 -0600 Subject: New Scans: IIT RUSH Time-Sharing In-Reply-To: <56D7DEC8.50400@sydex.com> References: <56D7DEC8.50400@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 12:50 AM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > That'd be IITRI, IIT's Research Institute, not IIT Proper (the school), who > used a 360/40 to run their student timesharing (remote ASR33 TTYs) in a > DOS/360 foreground partition implementing the IITRAN language. IIRC, it was > a 128K machine. I don't recall what was on IITRI's 360/50. Background was > also available for student use via a 2501 card reader. Now that I've read my own scan, I see: "IIT Research Institute has just concluded an agreement with Allen-Babcock Computing, Inc. of Los Angeles for extension of its RUSH time-sharing system to IITRI clients in the midwest." So the 360 (or this 360, anyway) wasn't even there at IITRI. It appears they still exist. Maybe I'll try to get in touch with someone over there to see if there's any more computing history to dig up. j From dave at 661.org Thu Mar 3 19:41:30 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 01:41:30 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Vince Briel? Message-ID: Has anyone heard from Vince Briel lately? I've bene trying to get in touch with him for some Micro-Altair artwork. The forum at brielcomputers.com is stangnant. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Mar 3 20:27:54 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:27:54 -0600 Subject: Looking for a 2W 1 ohm fusible resistor In-Reply-To: <56D8700E.7050607@pico-systems.com> References: <56D804D1.60705@dunnington.plus.com> <56D8700E.7050607@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Have you looked at the various flameproof resistor offerings? Flameproof types are frequently used as a fusible element - it's by virtue of the fact that they abruptly go open-circuit under overload, that they fail to reach smoke / ignition temperature. Check some datsheets and see what kind of specs they publish for that service.. might be an ideal way to go. On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:10 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/03/2016 07:03 AM, tony duell wrote: > >> No, sorry, but Farnell do: >>> >>> >>> http://uk.farnell.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Search?catalogId=15001&langId=44&storeId=10151&categoryId=700000005447&st=resistor%202W&pageSize=25&showResults=true&sf=502&pf=110030112,110046859 >>> >>> The original resistor (as mentioned in the Subject: line) was one of >> those safety fusible >> resistors. AFAIK none of the ones that Farnell stock are. >> >> It appears Digikey do them, but only to special order with a large >> (thousands) >> minimum order quantity >> >> >> Also check Mouser. I don't know about 1W, but I use a 10W Ohmite fusible > (or at least flame-proof) resistor. > That is the 40J25RE, and I get them from Digi-Key. > > Jon > From spedraja at ono.com Fri Mar 4 01:49:17 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 08:49:17 +0100 Subject: Pdp-10 emulation In-Reply-To: <201603032124.u23LO6h6070817@ultimate.com> References: <20160303134044.A9B6F18C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603032124.u23LO6h6070817@ultimate.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-03 22:24 GMT+01:00 Phil Budne : > Noel wrote > > Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual > > devices, etc) > > There are "assigned numbers" for mit-ml-dev over UDP and TCP > (ports 83 and 85)! > > I did find this: > http://victor.se/bjorn/its/ch11.php > > Which simulates the CH11 (unibus) Chaosnet interface (presumably for > the KS10 simulation) under KLH10 and encapsulates chaosnet traffic in > UDP. > > And mentions the magic file names involved! > ?Yeah. Great work. This is available long time ago. I'm happy to see it online yet. Kind Regards Sergio Pedraja From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Fri Mar 4 12:10:09 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 13:10:09 -0500 (EST) Subject: Best name for PDP-11/05-10 Message-ID: <20160304181009.618E918C08D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I have a physical tech manual (which is not the same as the one at > bitsavers) > ... > I should probably scan that tech manual if someone hasn't done it > already. The ones I have found online are: DEC-11-H05AA-A-D Jan, '73 PDP-11/05 computer manual DEC-11-H05AA-B-D Sept, '74 PDP-11/05, 11/10 computer manual DEC-11-H05AA-B-D Supplement 1 July, '74 PDP-11/05, 11/10 10-1/2 inch mounting box and power system DEC-11-H05AA-B-D Supplement 2 July, '74 Description of data paths module M7260 revision M DEC-11-H05SS-B-D Jan, '75 PDP-11/05-S, 11/10-S system manual EK-11005-TM-003 April, '75 PDP-11/05, 11/10 computer manual (The 2nd-4th are in a single file.) > Compared to the one at bitsavers it for example include an appendix > related to some minor modifications that had been done to the CPU board > set. The ones that are available seem to be pretty comprehensive coverage of the 05-10, the 05N-10N, and the 05S-10S. If yours has some significant material that is not in the others, then please scan it. Otherwise, it may not be worth the trouble (especially if you do not have an auto-feed scanner... :-). > the system came with an extra 5.25 inch memory box. Identical to the > CPU but different backplane for three more MM11-L modules Right, that's the ME11-L, which is an MF11-L backplane in a 5-1/4 box; it normally came with one MM11-L board set (16KB) installed, and one could add two more sets. Noel From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 4 20:03:16 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:03:16 -0600 Subject: VCF West XI exhibit registration is open In-Reply-To: <56D86A88.9010909@snarc.net> References: <56D86A88.9010909@snarc.net> Message-ID: <000401d17683$2ec91b20$8c5b5160$@classiccmp.org> Silent700 - is date for VCFMW set yet? You can bet I'll be there :) J From cctalk at snarc.net Fri Mar 4 20:17:17 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 21:17:17 -0500 Subject: VCF West XI exhibit registration is open In-Reply-To: <000401d17683$2ec91b20$8c5b5160$@classiccmp.org> References: <56D86A88.9010909@snarc.net> <000401d17683$2ec91b20$8c5b5160$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56DA41AD.1070304@snarc.net> > Silent700 - is date for VCFMW set yet? You can bet I'll be there :) http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/ From silent700 at gmail.com Fri Mar 4 20:49:39 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 20:49:39 -0600 Subject: VCF Midwest Dates Set: Sept 10-11 2016 Message-ID: Planning for the 11th annual Vintage Computer Festival Midwest shall begin in earnest in early April. But since the dates have been locked in for some time, there's no harm in getting them out early. Returning to last year's great new location, this time with an extra room and even more Visio-driven planning, VCFMW will once-again be *the place to be* for retro-tech enthusiasts in the Midwest! In an effort to accommodate as many schedules as possible, our dates have shifted back a bit vs. last year. So please make a note on your calendar, VCFMW 11 will be the weekend of September 10th and 11th, 2016. As always, the fun will begin on Friday night with early load-in, group dinner(s) and general frivolity. Many details are yet to be worked out, but we envision a slight schedule change (later Saturday and earlier Sunday start and further optimization of the room and table layouts. The old vcfmw.org URL still works, as well as the new page from our friends at the Vintage Computer Federation: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-midwest More info will be added in a few weeks, as well as a new registration page for tables, talks and vending. Please hold your tabling requests until the announcement next month (I have to draw the chart first!) Every minute of last year's show set a new standard as we went into our double digits. We look forward to seeing you all (and more) again this year. -j From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Mar 4 20:57:44 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 04 Mar 2016 21:57:44 -0500 Subject: Running RT11v4 on 11/03 Message-ID: <629D336F-F71C-449F-93C7-85B8CC8B2475@verizon.net> All ? Now that I have a running 11/03 (through the Heathkit HT-11 I bought) I thought I?d try to get something running other than XXDP using the TU58 emulator. Malcolm Macleod has a quick walkthrough of how to make this work with an 11/23 and the TU58 emulator from Will Kranz (http://www.avitech.com.au/pdp-11-03/make-tu58-rtv4-image.html). Even though the tutorial is for the 11/23, I think that the 11/03 can run RT-11 from an RX01, and the H11 came with an optional custom version of RT-11, so I feel that it should theoretically work. I followed the tutorial and it reads the image but barfs at some point and the CPU halts. Not sure why. Has anyone tried this? Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Sat Mar 5 00:14:28 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Fri, 4 Mar 2016 22:14:28 -0800 Subject: Documentation on DEC's Omnibus Module M865 (Console Teletype Control) In-Reply-To: References: <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo.ref@mail.yahoo.com> <311897639.2411143.1456935501079.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4E8B41D8DA7749E7A7929F9682810CC7@Vincew7> From: krause: Thursday, March 03, 2016 8:24 AM > On Thu, 3 Mar 2016, Christian Corti wrote: >> It's online now at >> ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/dec/pdp8e/E-CS-M865-01_KL8E_ConsoleTeletypeControl_14Jun1971.pdf > > I moved the scans in a lower directory > .../dec/pdp8e/hard > > I also added a scan of a clever modification, that the foreowners of the > machine made 40 years ago: Nice. Thanks! Vince From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 5 06:53:22 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 12:53:22 -0000 Subject: Usenet News Servers Message-ID: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. What news servers do people round here recommend? Thanks Rob From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 5 07:01:57 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 08:01:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update Message-ID: <20160305130157.B524A18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > So here's a quick update on where Dave Bridgham and I are with the > QSIC ... We have the first of two wire-wrap prototype QBUS motherboards > more or less (see below) done .. the hardware is 'mostly' working; most > of the work from here on out will be FPGA, etc, programming. There > _are_ a few additional QBUS lines used for bus master (DMA) and > interrupts which we haven't used yet, and one of the first things done > now is to get those two kind of bus cycles working > ... > With that in hand, we can do the first controller (RK11), using memory > in the FPGA to simulate a small disk. Well, Dave has made a big step down that road; he has DMA working (both the bus arbitration cycle for DMA, as well as master-mode transfers to and from QBUS slave memory). He's now starting in on interrupt cycles; once those work, he effectively has emulation of a minimal small RK (he already has all the registers, since he needs them to control the DMA to and from the RAM disk). At that point I should be able to test it by making it the swap drive on a Unix V6 load. Noel From jason at smbfc.net Sat Mar 5 08:33:26 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 06:33:26 -0800 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> On 03/05/2016 04:53 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > > > > What news servers do people round here recommend? > http://www.eternal-september.org/ Text only, no binaries. --Jason From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Sat Mar 5 09:27:07 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 10:27:07 -0500 (EST) Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> What news servers do people round here recommend? > http://www.eternal-september.org/ Am I the only one who finds it amusing (in a dark-humour kind of sense) that someone asked after news servers and got pointed to a web server? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jason at smbfc.net Sat Mar 5 09:35:17 2016 From: jason at smbfc.net (Jason Howe) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:35:17 -0800 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56DAFCB5.8090106@smbfc.net> On 03/05/2016 07:27 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> What news servers do people round here recommend? >> http://www.eternal-september.org/ > Am I the only one who finds it amusing (in a dark-humour kind of sense) > that someone asked after news servers and got pointed to a web server? Oh believe me, the irony did not escape me as I sent it. The web interface to the service, is however, the only place where you can register an account and get the required connection information. --Jason From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 5 09:39:54 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 07:39:54 -0800 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56DAFDCA.6080301@jwsss.com> On 3/5/2016 7:27 AM, Mouse wrote: >>> What news servers do people round here recommend? >> http://www.eternal-september.org/ > Am I the only one who finds it amusing (in a dark-humour kind of sense) > that someone asked after news servers and got pointed to a web server? Not really. The instructions for setting up NNTP access are posted there. Used to be that there were emails sent out, or ftp sites with something similar to web pages that had such before the web page invention. I don't know that TWC my current provider had a News server since I moved to them. Cox Cable killed off Usenet before 2003. Prior to that it had been outsourced. > > /~\ The ASCII Mouse > \ / Ribbon Campaign > X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org > / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B > > From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 10:07:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 11:07:16 -0500 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DAFDCA.6080301@jwsss.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> <201603051527.KAA19890@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56DAFDCA.6080301@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 5, 2016 at 10:39 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 3/5/2016 7:27 AM, Mouse wrote: > >> What news servers do people round here recommend? >>>> >>> http://www.eternal-september.org/ >>> >> Am I the only one who finds it amusing (in a dark-humour kind of sense) >> that someone asked after news servers and got pointed to a web server? >> > Not really. The instructions for setting up NNTP access are posted > there. Used to be that there were emails sent out, or ftp sites with > something similar to web pages that had such before the web page invention. > > I don't know that TWC my current provider had a News server since I moved > to them. Cox Cable killed off Usenet before 2003. Prior to that it had > been outsourced. > > >> /~\ The ASCII Mouse >> \ / Ribbon Campaign >> X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org >> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B >> >> >> > This will be useful for my recent "revival of Windows 3.11 networking" PC thing I have been into lately, thanks -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Sat Mar 5 10:44:59 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 17:44:59 +0100 Subject: QSIC update In-Reply-To: <20160305130157.B524A18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160305130157.B524A18C092@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Noel Chiappa Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 2:01 PM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: QSIC update > So here's a quick update on where Dave Bridgham and I are with the > QSIC ... We have the first of two wire-wrap prototype QBUS motherboards > more or less (see below) done .. the hardware is 'mostly' working; most > of the work from here on out will be FPGA, etc, programming. There > _are_ a few additional QBUS lines used for bus master (DMA) and > interrupts which we haven't used yet, and one of the first things done > now is to get those two kind of bus cycles working > ... > With that in hand, we can do the first controller (RK11), using memory > in the FPGA to simulate a small disk. Well, Dave has made a big step down that road; he has DMA working (both the bus arbitration cycle for DMA, as well as master-mode transfers to and from QBUS slave memory). He's now starting in on interrupt cycles; once those work, he effectively has emulation of a minimal small RK (he already has all the registers, since he needs them to control the DMA to and from the RAM disk). At that point I should be able to test it by making it the swap drive on a Unix V6 load. Noel --------- sounds very good - nice progress! When you get to it, that will be a fast swap drive ;-) - Henk From elson at pico-systems.com Sat Mar 5 11:34:39 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 11:34:39 -0600 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56DB18AF.5090506@pico-systems.com> On 03/05/2016 06:53 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > > > > What news servers do people round here recommend? > > I've been using GigaNews for some time, when my ISP dropped their news service. Jon From mbbrutman at brutman.com Sat Mar 5 13:31:46 2016 From: mbbrutman at brutman.com (Michael Brutman) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 11:31:46 -0800 Subject: jrIDE sidecars: Interested in another chance? Message-ID: Short story: We are thinking of producing another set of 25 and want to know how much interest there is out there. If you are interested in purchasing one please email me. --- What is it? An IDE interface, clock/calendar, and a memory expansion sidecar for the PCjr. The BIOS extension allows booting from recent IDE/PATA hard drives that support LBA addressing mode. (Compact Flash with an adapter or Disk On Modules also work.) The memory expansion brings the machine from 128KB to 736KB. The last time we did this the price was around $75 for the kit of parts; you have to supply your own sidecar shell. See http://www.brutman.com/jrIDE/jrIDE.html for more details. Mike From teoz at neo.rr.com Sat Mar 5 13:50:15 2016 From: teoz at neo.rr.com (TeoZ) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 14:50:15 -0500 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: When TWC dropped newsgroups here years ago I went with AGN. http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php $2.95 a month for 25GB of downloads. Highest Retention and Completion ?2,759 Days Binary Retention ?4,635 Days Text Retention ?99% + Completion Rate ?100,000 + Newsgroups 30 Blazing Fast Connections ?The most connections of any Usenet provider ?Recently upgraded servers provide blazing speeds ?Compressed headers up to 10 times faster Free SSL Security ?State of the art 256-bit SSL encryption ?Maintain you privacy while downloading Global Usenet Network ?Multiple data centers in both U.S. and Europe ?Dedicated servers for all major Internet providers -----Original Message----- From: Robert Jarratt Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 7:53 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Usenet News Servers My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. What news servers do people round here recommend? Thanks Rob --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From earl at baugh.org Sat Mar 5 14:49:10 2016 From: earl at baugh.org (Earl Baugh) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 15:49:10 -0500 Subject: VCF SE 4.0 Announcement Message-ID: Many of you may have heard about this already, but to make sure everyone knows, We are proud to announce the fourth annual Vintage Computer Festival Southeast (VCFSE) in Roswell GA. The Festival, on April 2nd and 3rd, features over 35,000 square feet of exhibits, museums, presentations, and interactive entertainment. Exhibitors are available for live demonstrations and offer attendees the unique opportunity to experience a true piece of technology history. New this year, a live auction offers bidders a chance to start or expand their personal collections. (Registration is still open, visit the link at the bottom if you'd wish to exhibit -- vendors are also welcome) The Festival offers very popular hands-on electronics projects for children and adults. Gaming fans will enjoy a wide array of vintage video game consoles in a retro gaming section, where visitors can play classic games. Gamers of all ages are encouraged to test their vintage gamer skills on a huge classic video game wall. This year, the Festival celebrates the 40th anniversary of Apple computer. Attendees will experience the complete history of Apple at the Computer Museum of America?s Apple Pop-Up Museum, a large, one-of-a-kind display of extremely rare computers. The museum features a dynamic presentation of the small start-up, founded in a garage by two young friends in 1976, that became the world's leading computer company. Guest speakers include renowned industrial designers and engineers who have played integral roles in computer history. Attendees will hear a first-hand account from industrial designer Jerry Manock, who created designs for the Apple II and III in the 70s and 80s. Vintage computer enthusiasts will enjoy a presentation from acclaimed computer engineer Bil Herd, creator of several noteworthy designs, including the Commodore 128. Computer Museum of America?s companion exhibit, ?LINK: Personal Computing from Switches to Pockets,? features the links from the past to the present with displays of iconic computer brands including original computers like the IBM PC, as well as some very rare and unique machines such as the Kenbak-1. VCFSE is hosted and produced by the Atlanta Historical Computing Society and the Computer Museum of America. VCFSE is the premier vintage computer festival in the southeast and part of the VCF family of vintage computer festivals, which include VCF East in New Jersey, VCF Midwest in Chicago and VCF West in California. The VCF mission is to educate, promote and demonstrate the evolutionary significance of vintage computers, software and gaming to today?s new generation of innovators by offering attendees a chance to experience the technologies, people and remarkable stories that embody the history of the computer revolution. VCFSE 4.0 will be held at Kings Market Shopping Center, 1425 Market Blvd, Suite 200, Roswell, GA 30076, in what was previously a Comp-USA Super Store. The Festival is open from 10 AM to 7 PM on Saturday and from 10 AM to 5 PM on Sunday. Adult admission is $10 per day or $15 for a two-day pass. Children ages 17 and younger are admitted free when accompanied by a parent or guardian. For more details, please visit http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-southeast-4-0/ or http://vcfse.org From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 5 14:54:58 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 20:54:58 -0000 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DAEE36.7090208@smbfc.net> Message-ID: <059701d17721$475df0e0$d619d2a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jason > Howe > Sent: 05 March 2016 14:33 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Usenet News Servers > > On 03/05/2016 04:53 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > > > > > > > > What news servers do people round here recommend? > > > http://www.eternal-september.org/ > > Text only, no binaries. > Thanks, this suggestion seems to work well for me. Regards Rob From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Mar 5 17:05:44 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 15:05:44 -0800 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <009801d17733$8cac13e0$a6043ba0$@net> > My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > > > > What news servers do people round here recommend? > Anybody using Astranews: http://www.news.astraweb.com/specials/kleverig-11.html? -Ali From drb at msu.edu Sat Mar 5 18:42:08 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Sat, 05 Mar 2016 19:42:08 -0500 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: (Your message of Thu, 25 Feb 2016 14:28:32 -0600.) <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> A couple more for the keys file: Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing Unit cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts are 12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. Depths are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175. TI apparently used Chicago C2132 on at least some 980 and 990 cabinets and CPU keyswitches. That's Ilco 1041-G. Chicago double bitted keys aren't really code cuttable as far as I know. You copy a guide key, in this case H2132, onto your proper blank. De From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 20:06:03 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:06:03 -0800 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: http://marc.info/?t=104968979800010&r=1&w=2 On 3/5/16, Dennis Boone wrote: > A couple more for the keys file: > > Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing > Unit cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts > are 12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. > Depths are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175. > > TI apparently used Chicago C2132 on at least some 980 and 990 cabinets > and CPU keyswitches. That's Ilco 1041-G. Chicago double bitted keys > aren't really code cuttable as far as I know. You copy a guide key, in > this case H2132, onto your proper blank. > > De > -- Chris Halarewich From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 20:06:09 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:06:09 -0800 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On 3/5/16, Chris Halarewich wrote: > http://marc.info/?t=104968979800010&r=1&w=2 > > On 3/5/16, Dennis Boone wrote: >> A couple more for the keys file: >> >> Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing >> Unit cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts >> are 12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. >> Depths are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175. >> >> TI apparently used Chicago C2132 on at least some 980 and 990 cabinets >> and CPU keyswitches. That's Ilco 1041-G. Chicago double bitted keys >> aren't really code cuttable as far as I know. You copy a guide key, in >> this case H2132, onto your proper blank. >> >> De >> > > > -- > Chris Halarewich > -- Chris Halarewich From halarewich at gmail.com Sat Mar 5 20:08:00 2016 From: halarewich at gmail.com (Chris Halarewich) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 18:08:00 -0800 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: http://www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum/showthread.php?39482-Virtual-DEC-KEY-REPOSITORY/page6 On 3/5/16, Chris Halarewich wrote: > On 3/5/16, Chris Halarewich wrote: >> http://marc.info/?t=104968979800010&r=1&w=2 >> >> On 3/5/16, Dennis Boone wrote: >>> A couple more for the keys file: >>> >>> Allegedly Control Data used a National C415A on Network Processing >>> Unit cabinets in the late 70s, early 80s. That's an Ilco 1069-N, cuts >>> are 12343 from bow to tip. Cut spacings are .156 .249 .342 .435 .528. >>> Depths are 1=.250 2=.225 3=.200 4=.175. >>> >>> TI apparently used Chicago C2132 on at least some 980 and 990 cabinets >>> and CPU keyswitches. That's Ilco 1041-G. Chicago double bitted keys >>> aren't really code cuttable as far as I know. You copy a guide key, in >>> this case H2132, onto your proper blank. >>> >>> De >>> >> >> >> -- >> Chris Halarewich >> > > > -- > Chris Halarewich > -- Chris Halarewich From jwest at classiccmp.org Sat Mar 5 20:23:12 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 20:23:12 -0600 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: <000201d1774f$221ca780$6655f680$@classiccmp.org> We're doing something a little more expansive than that. Fred did a great job of providing detailed fields which the web developer has looked at. If anyone has additional fields, let me know. J From cctalk at snarc.net Sat Mar 5 21:42:36 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 22:42:36 -0500 Subject: Another passing ... Ray Tomlinson Message-ID: <56DBA72C.6030601@snarc.net> http://www.techrepublic.com/article/email-inventor-ray-tomlinson-dies-at-74/ From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 5 23:31:49 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 21:31:49 -0800 (PST) Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: <000201d1774f$221ca780$6655f680$@classiccmp.org> References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d1774f$221ca780$6655f680$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2016, Jay West wrote: > We're doing something a little more expansive than that. > Fred did a great job of providing detailed fields which the web developer has looked at. If anyone has additional fields, let me know. Well, as a hierarchical or relational database, the primary information needed is the key blank, and the numbers of the cuts, such as SC1 7 4 1 3 6 (Some manufacturers have "rules" that I'm not familiar with, such as "never put a cut deeper than 5 next to a cut shallower than 2", "never use a cut deeper than 7 as the cut nearest the bow, or it may break!", and some will always use even number depths on some cuts and odd numbers on others. Such rules are necessary in designing a new key, but irrelevant for making a duplicate or replacement) At an additional level in the database, or separate databases, would be the depth and spacing data for that blank and/or that usage of that blank, specifically, the spacing from the bow (or tip in a few exceptions) and the depths of the various standard cuts. Further, a comprehensive database for machinists could lay out what the milling is to be for each blank. Key blank availability tends to be good enough that that information would rarely be needed. From dave at 661.org Sat Mar 5 23:35:50 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 05:35:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials Message-ID: Would someone please point me towards a tutorial of some sort on running the assembler on TOPS20 as presented in Mark Crispin's Panda distribution? -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From cisin at xenosoft.com Sat Mar 5 23:56:28 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 21:56:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d1774f$221ca780$6655f680$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 5 Mar 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > always use even number depths on some cuts and odd numbers on others. Such > rules are necessary in designing a new key, but irrelevant for making a > duplicate or replacement) CORRECTION: NOT irrelevant. If you have a cut that seems to be between a 3 and a 4, it is essential to know if that cut is always an even number or always an odd number, and very useful for checking your work for errors. From cctech at vintagesbc.it Sat Mar 5 09:51:31 2016 From: cctech at vintagesbc.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:51:31 +0100 Subject: R: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks In-Reply-To: <56afe2ad.c775b60a.46ccc.ffff82f6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <201603051551.u25FpcVC007886-u25FpcVD007886@SMTP02.dsl.vodafone.it> Ciao at all, i'm from Italy. I'm not much present cause other interests. Anyway on my website www.vintagesbc.it you can find info on Ferguson Bigboards I and II. Exactly my Ferguson Bigboards I is more properly a clone of the original one that I bought from a little LTD in Italy on 1983. Instead my Ferguson Bigboards II is that i bought some years ago from Germany. This last has a VAR Bios from Twente Digita installed instead of the original BIOS so its OS is a ZCPR system. I saved via IMD images all dischettes included boot dischettes Here on FBB1 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.v intagesbc.it%2F%3Fpage_id%3D128%26gt Here on FBII http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.v intagesbc.it%2F%3Fpage_id%3D262%26gt I also have many issues of microcornucpia magazine and all them digital scanned ones. I'm look instead for all possible Ferguson user's dischette So let me know if you need help Best Enrico Lazzerini - PISA (ITALY) From cctech at vintagesbc.it Sat Mar 5 09:51:31 2016 From: cctech at vintagesbc.it (Enrico Lazzerini) Date: Sat, 5 Mar 2016 16:51:31 +0100 Subject: R: Big-Board II & Micro Cornucopia User Group Disks In-Reply-To: <56afe2ad.c775b60a.46ccc.ffff82f6@mx.google.com> Message-ID: <201603051551.u25FpcVC007886-u25FpcVD007886@SMTP02.dsl.vodafone.it> Ciao at all, i'm from Italy. I'm not much present cause other interests. Anyway on my website www.vintagesbc.it you can find info on Ferguson Bigboards I and II. Exactly my Ferguson Bigboards I is more properly a clone of the original one that I bought from a little LTD in Italy on 1983. Instead my Ferguson Bigboards II is that i bought some years ago from Germany. This last has a VAR Bios from Twente Digita installed instead of the original BIOS so its OS is a ZCPR system. I saved via IMD images all dischettes included boot dischettes Here on FBB1 http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.v intagesbc.it%2F%3Fpage_id%3D128%26gt Here on FBII http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=it&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.v intagesbc.it%2F%3Fpage_id%3D262%26gt I also have many issues of microcornucpia magazine and all them digital scanned ones. I'm look instead for all possible Ferguson user's dischette So let me know if you need help Best Enrico Lazzerini - PISA (ITALY) From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 6 08:27:12 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:27:12 -0500 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> >On Saturday, March 5th, 2016 at 12:53:22 +0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > >What news servers do people round here recommend? > I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently available browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, I am using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows 10, I probably won't find anything from Microsoft which will support reasonable access to newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has an application that supports access to newsgroups in a manner similar to how Netscape 7.2 provides access. BEST would be a browser that also supports access to e-mail in the same manner as Netscape 7.2 and which also allows me to copy all of the archived 100,000 e-mails and posts which I have acquired over the last 15 years. It is only about 300 MB, so the size is not a factor. I know someone will probably recall the same question a while ago, but the answer given then was not sufficient to make the switch. At least a link to the site which has the files to be downloaded would be needed since just the name of the application does not seem to help me. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- When I registered 8 years ago, I received the following reply copied below. There is no charge for the service. I have found that about 99% of the posts which appear at eternal-september also appear at sunsite. Mainly, I use sunsite to check that I am receiving all the posts which have been made to other servers in addition to having a second source just in case one of the servers has crashed or disappears. The e-mail to sign up was sent to: news-signup at sunsite.dk The other e-mail address that I used to inquire about an acceptable newsgroup which was not yet carried (alt.sys.pdp11 - but is now) was: staff at sunsite.dk The information should be sufficient to inquire and register. Note that retention is short for some newsgroups, probably only a few days while for others the retention can be over a year. So checking the posts on at least a daily basis is recommended until you determine the retention period. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dear "e-mail address" You have been registered at the dotsrc.org usenet server. To be able to read and post articles, you will have to tell your news client, that it must perform authentication. If you forget your username/password, then just register again. There is no need to remove your registration - your registration will be removed when it has not been used for 3 months. More information can be found at: http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ Your username is: "e-mail address" Your password is: "six character password" Your newsserver is: news.sunsite.dk IMPORTANT: October 15th 2005 a new access policy was introduced, in order to make the main focus of the usenet service consistent with our remaining policy and focus. For further info please see http://dotsrc.org/usenet/accesschange/ Please remark, that the username and password is for your personal usage only! Upon any abuse, your account will be terminated immediately. Best regards, Dotsrc.org News Administrator staff at dotsrc.org -------------------------------------------------------------------- From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 08:49:16 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:49:16 -0000 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <034201d177b7$5bd7e0d0$1387a270$@gmail.com> I think Thunderbird will allow import from the old Netscape mail client. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. > Fine > Sent: 06 March 2016 14:27 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Usenet News Servers > > >On Saturday, March 5th, 2016 at 12:53:22 +0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > >My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. > > > >What news servers do people round here recommend? > > > I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently available > browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, I am using > Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows 10, I probably > won't find anything from Microsoft which will support reasonable access to > newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has an application that supports > access to newsgroups in a manner similar to how Netscape 7.2 provides > access. BEST would be a browser that also supports access to e-mail in the > same manner as Netscape 7.2 and which also allows me to copy all of the > archived 100,000 e-mails and posts which I have acquired over the last 15 > years. It is only about 300 MB, so the size is not a factor. > > I know someone will probably recall the same question a while ago, but the > answer given then was not sufficient to make the switch. At least a link to > the site which has the files to be downloaded would be needed since just > the name of the application does not seem to help me. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- > > When I registered 8 years ago, I received the following reply copied below. > There is no charge for the service. I have found that about 99% of the posts > which appear at eternal-september also appear at sunsite. Mainly, I use > sunsite to check that I am receiving all the posts which have been made to > other servers in addition to having a second source just in case one of the > servers has crashed or disappears. > > The e-mail to sign up was sent to: > news-signup at sunsite.dk > > The other e-mail address that I used to inquire about an acceptable > newsgroup which was not yet carried (alt.sys.pdp11 - but is now) was: > staff at sunsite.dk > > The information should be sufficient to inquire and register. > > Note that retention is short for some newsgroups, probably only a few days > while for others the retention can be over a year. So checking the posts on > at least a daily basis is recommended until you determine the retention > period. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------- > Dear "e-mail address" > > You have been registered at the dotsrc.org usenet server. > > To be able to read and post articles, you will have to tell your news client, > that it must perform authentication. > > If you forget your username/password, then just register again. > > There is no need to remove your registration - your registration will be > removed when it has not been used for 3 months. > > More information can be found at: > > http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ > > Your username is: "e-mail address" > Your password is: "six character password" > Your newsserver is: news.sunsite.dk > > IMPORTANT: October 15th 2005 a new access policy was introduced, in order > to make the main focus of the usenet service consistent with our remaining > policy and focus. For further info please see > http://dotsrc.org/usenet/accesschange/ > > Please remark, that the username and password is for your personal usage > only! > > Upon any abuse, your account will be terminated immediately. > > Best regards, > Dotsrc.org News Administrator > staff at dotsrc.org > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- From radiotest at juno.com Sun Mar 6 08:49:50 2016 From: radiotest at juno.com (Dale H. Cook) Date: Sun, 06 Mar 2016 09:49:50 -0500 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <7.0.1.0.2.20160306094638.03da43f8@juno.com> At 09:27 AM 3/6/2016, Jerome H. Fine wrote: >I have a question about access to newsgroups. I have never used a browser for Usenet - I have always used Forte Agent, a Usenet client: http://www.forteinc.com/main/homepage.php From toby at telegraphics.com.au Sun Mar 6 08:56:26 2016 From: toby at telegraphics.com.au (Toby Thain) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 09:56:26 -0500 Subject: SeaMonkey - Re: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56DC451A.9080506@telegraphics.com.au> On 2016-03-06 9:27 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >On Saturday, March 5th, 2016 at 12:53:22 +0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: > >> My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. >> >> What news servers do people round here recommend? >> > I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently available > browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, I am using > Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows 10, > I probably won't find anything from Microsoft which will support reasonable > access to newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has an > application that > supports access to newsgroups in a manner similar to how Netscape 7.2 > provides access. BEST would be a browser that also supports access > to e-mail in the same manner as Netscape 7.2 and which also allows me > to copy all of the archived 100,000 e-mails and posts which I have > acquired over the last 15 years. It is only about 300 MB, so the size > is not a factor. Probably the closest thing (and actually a descendant) would be SeaMonkey? http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ --Toby > > I know someone will probably recall the same question a while ago, but > the answer given then was not sufficient to make the switch. At least > a link to the site which has the files to be downloaded would be needed > since just the name of the application does not seem to help me. > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ... From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 6 10:06:56 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 11:06:56 -0500 Subject: SeaMonkey - Re: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DC451A.9080506@telegraphics.com.au> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> <56DC451A.9080506@telegraphics.com.au> Message-ID: <56DC55A0.6020804@compsys.to> >Toby Thain wrote: > >On 2016-03-06 9:27 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >> I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently available >> browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, I am using >> Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows 10, >> I probably won't find anything from Microsoft which will support >> reasonable >> access to newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has an >> application that >> supports access to newsgroups in a manner similar to how Netscape 7.2 >> provides access. BEST would be a browser that also supports access >> to e-mail in the same manner as Netscape 7.2 and which also allows me >> to copy all of the archived 100,000 e-mails and posts which I have >> acquired over the last 15 years. It is only about 300 MB, so the size >> is not a factor. > > Probably the closest thing (and actually a descendant) would be > SeaMonkey? > http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ This link certainly looks like an excellent start. Does SeaMonkey have the ability to work under the 64-bit Windows 10 operating system? Any idea as to how the 100,000 old e-mails and posts from newsgroups would be copied over? From thebri at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 10:56:31 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 11:56:31 -0500 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) Message-ID: How the heck do you copy an RX02 disk for use in simh? I've been trying to transfer RX02 images between simh and a real PDP11 (that has only two RX02's, console, and ethernet). So far, I've only attempted sending an RX02 image from the PDP to simh, but simh fails to read it: "?DIR-F-Invalid directory". Even after adding 13*512 bytes to the start for the missing track, I still get invalid directory. My process is to COPY/DEVICE/FILES DY1:/START:0/END:330 DY0:BLOCK1.DAT, then FTP that off the PDP, delete the file, and do the remaining two thirds of the disk. Once all are transferred, "cat *DAT > floppy.dsk". I can transfer RX50 images using the same recipe, though I haven't tried sending an RX50 image created on simh back to the PDP. For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem with Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP disk images from http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.htm. simh can't read the individual DSK images, but could read the *.PKG with the disks inside, and from that, I could (RT-11) MOUNT each disk to a logical device. b On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I found some 8 inch floppies with distribution kits for MU-BASIC V2 and > RT-11 V03B. I imaged those and put them here > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/rx01-and-rx02-floppy-disks > if anyone is interested in playing with MU-BASIC. There are both RAW disk > images and to be used in SimH and like and also DMK/IMD files. > > The system that floppies came with is this little ( > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l > ) > system once used at Scania in S?dert?lje. > From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 6 12:26:19 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:26:19 -0800 Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? Message-ID: This thread is a parallel discussion to a VCF thread that I started last night: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?51653-Dumping-Images-of-my-VAX-11-730-s-Drives With today being cold and rainy, it seems like a good excuse to turn on my VAX-11/730. I can boot either VMS 5.2 off the RL02 or OpenVMS 7.3 off the R80, if I recall the version numbers correctly. Several months have passed since the last time I worked on the machine. In my last session I began trying to bring up TCP/IP networking, without success. I want to get raw images of the system's drives off the machine and onto my modern systems. I can think of several approaches, and still more approaches have already been suggested in that VCF thread. I have a number of questions, and I'm also keeping my eyes open for hardware that might help me out. I'm not presently talking to eBay, so that limits my options. First of all, if I manage to get TCP/IP networking up and running today, is there some way under VMS for me to dump raw disk blocks over the network to one of my UNIX-like systems? Alternately, if I manage to cobble together a Linux box running an older DECNET-aware distribution and bring up DECNET on the VAX, would that give me a way to dump raw disk blocks to a file on it across the network? I'm still quite clumsy under VMS. One of these network-based approaches seem like the only options that I would have any chance of achieving today, assuming that the networking hardware on my 11/730 is even in working order. I don't think I have the patience to dump an R80 drive across an async serial port, but if I did have the patience, is there some way to accomplish this under a stock VMS 5.2/7.3 installation? Ditto for the RL02 and 9-track tapes. I have a couple of broken Kennedy 9610 9-track drives in my pile. One has a SCSI interface, so I might be able to interface it to one of my newer machines that have both SCSI and a way to talk to my modern machines, such as my Sun Ultra 60 or my Amiga 3000. Both drives have hub motor drive problems that need to be diagnosed and repaired, though. This might end up being part of my best data path from the VAX to modern machines, but it'll take some time and work. I can think of a few possible approaches if somebody here has suitable hardware for sale or trade: * With an MSCP-emulating UNIBUS SCSI card, I might be able to hang a SCSI2SD off my VAX. These seem to be expensive and hard to find, though. I see a UC17 on eBay for $949 OBO. That's a lot more than I'm presently willing to spend, and I'm not on speaking terms with eBay/PayPal right now anyway. I do hope to find a suitable UNIBUS SCSI adapter at a good price, both for possible use in the VAX and for eventual use in my long-term PDP-11/44 project. * With an M8061 RLV12 card, I might be able to borrow the VAX's RL02 and dump packs on my little PDP-11 half-rack. I already have a QBUS SCSI card for it that I procured a while back. I also have four more RL02 drives out in the pile in the barn for eventual use, but I'd initially borrow the known-working RL02 drive from the VAX, which also happens to be in the same room as my little PDP-11. I don't think I already have an RLV12, but I'll dig through my QBUS cards again today to see if I have one I've forgotten about. * With some sort of Pertec tape adapter for one of my newer computers, I might be able to borrow the TU80 drive from my VAX (I think it has a Pertec interface; not positive yet) and use it to read/write tapes. It could also eventually get used with one of the Kennedy drives, but the TU80 already works. I might be able to use a PCI card in the Sun Ultra 60 if Solaris 8 can talk to it. Or an MCA card in a PS/2 65 that I recently acquired, running OS/2 Warp Connect 4, also assuming I can get suitable software. Or a SCSI to Pertec interface connected to the Ultra 60 or my Amiga 3000. Or even an ISA card in my crusty 386 clone running DOS 6.22. It would be ultimately nice to connect a 9-track to one of my modern Macs, but I don't expect that to be easy. * It was suggested that I might be able to cluster the 11/730 with a MicroVAX, and then transfer data onto some SCSI device on the MicroVAX such as a SCSI2SD. I think I'd need to find a fairly turnkey MicroVAX, though, to avoid a bring-up problem that's even bigger than the data transfer problem I'm trying to solve. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From nf6x at nf6x.net Sun Mar 6 12:33:14 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 10:33:14 -0800 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have managed to munge RX02 disk images into a format that SIMH understands a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I didn't keep notes about how I did it, and now I've forgotten what I did, possibly using some throw-away code that I've since thrown away. Or maybe I dumped the disks to image files on an emulated TU58 on my real PDP-11, and then wrote the image files to new simh RX02 disk images under RT11 in simh. Actually, that sounds like what I might have done. It's a clumsy way to do things, though. I'd like to learn how simh expects its RX02 image files to be arranged so that I can write a utility to translate between them and other formats. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:31:39 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 12:31:39 -0800 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 10:33 AM, Mark J. Blair wrote: > I have managed to munge RX02 disk images into a format that SIMH understands a year or so ago. Unfortunately, I didn't keep notes about how I did it, and now I've forgotten what I did, possibly using some throw-away code that I've since thrown away. Or maybe I dumped the disks to image files on an emulated TU58 on my real PDP-11, and then wrote the image files to new simh RX02 disk images under RT11 in simh. Actually, that sounds like what I might have done. It's a clumsy way to do things, though. I'd like to learn how simh expects its RX02 image files to be arranged so that I can write a utility to translate between them and other formats. > I have also gone through that exercise in the past and wrote some simple code to shuffle disk sectors around between and input RX02 image files and and output RX02 image files to account for the sector interleave and track to track skew factors. I still have the code I wrote to do that, but I'd have to take a look at it again to figure out how I was using it. -Glen From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:33:35 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 21:33:35 +0100 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-03-06 17:56 GMT+01:00 Brian Walenz : > How the heck do you copy an RX02 disk for use in simh? > > I've been trying to transfer RX02 images between simh and a real PDP11 > (that has only two RX02's, console, and ethernet). So far, I've only > attempted sending an RX02 image from the PDP to simh, but simh fails to > read it: "?DIR-F-Invalid directory". Even after adding 13*512 bytes to the > start for the missing track, I still get invalid directory. > I used a regular PC running DOS and then a catweasel card to produce the DMK file. Then I extracted the raw disk image from the DMK file. The files produced are 512512 bytes. > > My process is to COPY/DEVICE/FILES DY1:/START:0/END:330 DY0:BLOCK1.DAT, > then FTP that off the PDP, delete the file, and do the remaining two thirds > of the disk. Once all are transferred, "cat *DAT > floppy.dsk". > > I can transfer RX50 images using the same recipe, though I haven't tried > sending an RX50 image created on simh back to the PDP. > > For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem with Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP > disk images from http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.htm. simh can't read > the > individual DSK images, but could read the *.PKG with the disks inside, and > from that, I could (RT-11) MOUNT each disk to a logical device. > Did you have problems with my RAW files as well? Which? I tested a few of them right now and they seemed to work fine. > b > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > I found some 8 inch floppies with distribution kits for MU-BASIC V2 and > > RT-11 V03B. I imaged those and put them here > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/rx01-and-rx02-floppy-disks > > if anyone is interested in playing with MU-BASIC. There are both RAW disk > > images and to be used in SimH and like and also DMK/IMD files. > > > > The system that floppies came with is this little ( > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l > > ) > > system once used at Scania in S?dert?lje. > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 14:33:40 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 20:33:40 -0000 Subject: SeaMonkey - Re: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <56DC55A0.6020804@compsys.to> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> <56DC451A.9080506@telegraphics.com.au> <56DC55A0.6020804@compsys.to> Message-ID: <02f601d177e7$79baa1c0$6d2fe540$@gmail.com> SeaMonkey is essentially the same code as in Thunderbird/Firefox. Personally I prefer to keep browser and mail/news separate. Pretty sure it will import from the old Netscape Communicator. > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. > Fine > Sent: 06 March 2016 16:07 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: SeaMonkey - Re: Usenet News Servers > > >Toby Thain wrote: > > > >On 2016-03-06 9:27 AM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > > > >> I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently > >> available browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, > >> I am using Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows > >> 10, I probably won't find anything from Microsoft which will support > >> reasonable access to newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has > >> an application that supports access to newsgroups in a manner similar > >> to how Netscape 7.2 provides access. BEST would be a browser that > >> also supports access to e-mail in the same manner as Netscape 7.2 and > >> which also allows me to copy all of the archived 100,000 e-mails and > >> posts which I have acquired over the last 15 years. It is only about > >> 300 MB, so the size is not a factor. > > > > Probably the closest thing (and actually a descendant) would be > > SeaMonkey? > > http://www.seamonkey-project.org/ > > This link certainly looks like an excellent start. Does SeaMonkey have the > ability to work under the 64-bit Windows 10 operating system? > > Any idea as to how the 100,000 old e-mails and posts from newsgroups > would be copied over? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 6 15:12:47 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 16:12:47 -0500 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DC9D4F.6070608@compsys.to> >Brian Walenz wrote: >How the heck do you copy an RX02 disk for use in simh? > >I've been trying to transfer RX02 images between simh and a real PDP11 >(that has only two RX02's, console, and ethernet). So far, I've only >attempted sending an RX02 image from the PDP to simh, but simh fails to >read it: "?DIR-F-Invalid directory". Even after adding 13*512 bytes to the >start for the missing track, I still get invalid directory. > >My process is to COPY/DEVICE/FILES DY1:/START:0/END:330 DY0:BLOCK1.DAT, >then FTP that off the PDP, delete the file, and do the remaining two thirds >of the disk. Once all are transferred, "cat *DAT > floppy.dsk". > >I can transfer RX50 images using the same recipe, though I haven't tried >sending an RX50 image created on simh back to the PDP. > >For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem with Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP >disk images from http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.htm. simh can't read the >individual DSK images, but could read the *.PKG with the disks inside, and >from that, I could (RT-11) MOUNT each disk to a logical device. > >b > > >>On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>I found some 8 inch floppies with distribution kits for MU-BASIC V2 and >>RT-11 V03B. I imaged those and put them here >>http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/rx01-and-rx02-floppy-disks >>if anyone is interested in playing with MU-BASIC. There are both RAW disk >>images and to be used in SimH and like and also DMK/IMD files. >> >>The system that floppies came with is this little ( >>http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l >>) >>system once used at Scania in S?dert?lje. >> Check From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Mar 6 16:06:09 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:06:09 -0800 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DCA9D1.6020205@alum.mit.edu> On 3/6/2016 8:56 AM, Brian Walenz wrote: > How the heck do you copy an RX02 disk for use in simh? > > I've been trying to transfer RX02 images between simh and a real PDP11 > (that has only two RX02's, console, and ethernet). So far, I've only > attempted sending an RX02 image from the PDP to simh, but simh fails to > read it: "?DIR-F-Invalid directory". Even after adding 13*512 bytes to the > start for the missing track, I still get invalid directory. > > My process is to COPY/DEVICE/FILES DY1:/START:0/END:330 DY0:BLOCK1.DAT, > then FTP that off the PDP, delete the file, and do the remaining two thirds > of the disk. Once all are transferred, "cat *DAT > floppy.dsk". > > I can transfer RX50 images using the same recipe, though I haven't tried > sending an RX50 image created on simh back to the PDP. > > For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem with Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP > disk images from http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.htm. simh can't read the > individual DSK images, but could read the *.PKG with the disks inside, and > from that, I could (RT-11) MOUNT each disk to a logical device. > > b From the SIMH pdp11 RX driver (pdp11_rx.c) the disk size is computed as follows, and the byte offset into the file is computed by CALC_DA(trk,sec) given the PHYSICAL track (0..76) and sector (1..26) addresses used in accessing the controller. So the SIMH disk image should be 77*26*128 = 256,256 bytes for an RX01 format. RX02 format is same number of tracks and sectors, but has 256 byte sectors. So if you image an RX disk using logical operating system 512B blocks there are 494 of them (76*26*128/512 = 494) numbered 0..493. Track 0 is skipped in the filesystem (block 0 is at track=1 sector=1) for legacy compatibility reasons (with IBM). However, since the SIMH file is in physical track/sector order, if you read the disk image using logical device blocks, you have to know how the driver interleaves logical blocks onto physical track/sectors, as you must de-interleave to build the SIMH file. Or else you must run a program on the PDP-11 side that reads the RX drive as physical tracks and sectors, not using file system access commands. It's not pretty, but if you think about it enough it is the only way for SIMH to simulate the RX/RY devices and be operating system agnostic. Don From PDP11/pdp11_rx.c: #define RX_NUMTR 77 /* tracks/disk */ #define RX_NUMSC 26 /* sectors/track */ #define RX_NUMBY 128 /* bytes/sector */ #define RX_SIZE (RX_NUMTR * RX_NUMSC * RX_NUMBY) /* bytes/disk */ #define CALC_DA(t,s) (((t) * RX_NUMSC) + ((s) - 1)) * RX_NUMBY From thebri at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 16:06:43 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 17:06:43 -0500 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 3:33 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > Did you have problems with my RAW files as well? Which? I tested a few of > them right now and they seemed to work fine. > Nope, no problems. That was what triggered this...that someone else could do it. I jury rigged an RX50, and managed to get an image across that way. My end goal is to dump an RD52, but, sadly, I still am unable to access the disk. Not even a blip on the activity light. *Sigh* Back to reading manuals, I guess. Thanks to everyone for confirming I'm not insane, a moron, or both. b From thebri at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 16:17:20 2016 From: thebri at gmail.com (Brian Walenz) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 17:17:20 -0500 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: <56DCA9D1.6020205@alum.mit.edu> References: <56DCA9D1.6020205@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:06 PM, Don North wrote: > From the SIMH pdp11 RX driver (pdp11_rx.c) the disk size is computed as > follows, > and the byte offset into the file is computed by CALC_DA(trk,sec) given > the PHYSICAL > track (0..76) and sector (1..26) addresses used in accessing the > controller. > > So the SIMH disk image should be 77*26*128 = 256,256 bytes for an RX01 > format. > RX02 format is same number of tracks and sectors, but has 256 byte sectors. > > So if you image an RX disk using logical operating system 512B blocks > there are > 494 of them (76*26*128/512 = 494) numbered 0..493. Track 0 is skipped in > the > filesystem (block 0 is at track=1 sector=1) for legacy compatibility > reasons (with IBM). > > However, since the SIMH file is in physical track/sector order, if you > read the disk image > using logical device blocks, you have to know how the driver interleaves > logical blocks > onto physical track/sectors, as you must de-interleave to build the SIMH > file. > > Or else you must run a program on the PDP-11 side that reads the RX drive > as physical > tracks and sectors, not using file system access commands. > > It's not pretty, but if you think about it enough it is the only way for > SIMH to simulate the > RX/RY devices and be operating system agnostic. > > Don > > From PDP11/pdp11_rx.c: > > #define RX_NUMTR 77 /* tracks/disk */ > #define RX_NUMSC 26 /* sectors/track */ > #define RX_NUMBY 128 /* bytes/sector */ > #define RX_SIZE (RX_NUMTR * RX_NUMSC * RX_NUMBY) /* bytes/disk */ > > #define CALC_DA(t,s) (((t) * RX_NUMSC) + ((s) - 1)) * RX_NUMBY > http://www.dbit.com/putr/putr.asm has the following: ; ; RX01 interleave routine. ; ; bp logical device rec ; ch cylinder (0-75.) ; cl logical sector (0-25.) ; ; On return: ; ch cylinder (1-76.) ; cl sector (1-26.) ; ; From RT-11 V04 DY.MAC: ; ; ISEC=(ISEC-1)*2 ; IF(ISEC.GE.26) ISEC=ISEC-25 ; ISEC=MOD(ISEC+ITRK*6,26)+1 ; ITRK=ITRK+1 ; (and then some assembly code to implement that) I didn't try anything based on this. I was confused about "ISEC-1". Assuming sectors started at zero, this gave a negative result. Plus, I was wrong about the sector size. Thanks! This seems like enough hints to figure it out. b From u.tagge at gmx.de Sun Mar 6 13:39:36 2016 From: u.tagge at gmx.de (Ulrich Tagge) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 20:39:36 +0100 Subject: DEC TU81 - "Logic Off" permanently illuminated- Message-ID: <56DC8778.3020000@gmx.de> Hi All, maybe someone can help me to bring my TU81 back to life again. I have checked the following, before turning on: - All capacitors on the Mail Power Supply and the one below the vacuum pump are fine > OK - Voltages check > OK - Fuses > The Fuse for the diagnostics power connector was burned: changed Problem is, that the "Logic Off" is constantly illuminated, after turning on. I had a look into the Tx81 Pathfinder documentation, and checked the following. - Check if Blower is running > OK - Disconnecting all DC connectors > Same result Pathfinder tells me changing the power supply. I hear only an relay clicking when turning on the Power Supply, also, when nothing is connected, in this time the "Logic Off" light blinks one time. I think, that the power supply checks itself that the voltages are OK, and that this fails. Any hints or tips? Many Greetings Ulrich From glen.slick at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 16:47:55 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 14:47:55 -0800 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: <56DCA9D1.6020205@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 2:17 PM, Brian Walenz wrote: > > > http://www.dbit.com/putr/putr.asm has the following: > > ; > ; RX01 interleave routine. > ; > ; bp logical device rec > ; ch cylinder (0-75.) > ; cl logical sector (0-25.) > ; > ; On return: > ; ch cylinder (1-76.) > ; cl sector (1-26.) > ; > ; From RT-11 V04 DY.MAC: > ; > ; ISEC=(ISEC-1)*2 > ; IF(ISEC.GE.26) ISEC=ISEC-25 > ; ISEC=MOD(ISEC+ITRK*6,26)+1 > ; ITRK=ITRK+1 > ; > There is also yet another implementation of this in the 2.11BSD source code file src\sys\pdpstand\rx.c /* * rxfactr -- calculates the physical sector and physical * track on the disk for a given logical sector. * call: * rxfactr(logical_sector,&p_sector,&p_track); * the logical sector number (0 - 2001) is converted * to a physical sector number (1 - 26) and a physical * track number (0 - 76). * the logical sectors specify physical sectors that * are interleaved with a factor of 2. thus the sectors * are read in the following order for increasing * logical sector numbers (1,3, ... 23,25,2,4, ... 24,26) * There is also a 6 sector slew between tracks. * Logical sectors start at track 1, sector 1; go to * track 76 and then to track 0. Thus, for example, unix block number * 498 starts at track 0, sector 25 and runs thru track 0, sector 2 * (or 6 depending on density). */ static rxfactr(sectr, psectr, ptrck) register int sectr; int *psectr, *ptrck; { register int p1, p2; p1 = sectr / 26; p2 = sectr % 26; /* 2 to 1 interleave */ p2 = (2 * p2 + (p2 >= 13 ? 1 : 0)) % 26; /* 6 sector per track slew */ *psectr = 1 + (p2 + 6 * p1) % 26; if (++p1 >= 77) p1 = 0; *ptrck = p1; } From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 6 17:02:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 18:02:16 -0500 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights Message-ID: <115e7f.340e5040.440e10f8@aol.com> I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) From jrr at flippers.com Sun Mar 6 21:23:17 2016 From: jrr at flippers.com (John Robertson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 19:23:17 -0800 Subject: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <034201d177b7$5bd7e0d0$1387a270$@gmail.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> <034201d177b7$5bd7e0d0$1387a270$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56DCF425.80907@flippers.com> On 03/06/2016 6:49 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > I think Thunderbird will allow import from the old Netscape mail client. > > Dave I access Giganews via Thunderbird (OSX) - works very well... The downside is it costs about $8/month, but that is a very small business expense. Upside is Giganews goes back quite a ways...2003 for rec.humour.funny for example. John :-#)# > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H. >> Fine >> Sent: 06 March 2016 14:27 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: Usenet News Servers >> >> >On Saturday, March 5th, 2016 at 12:53:22 +0000, Robert Jarratt wrote: >> >>> My ISP appears to have stopped updating the newsgroups it hosts. >>> >>> What news servers do people round here recommend? >>> >> I have a question about access to newsgroups. Which currently available >> browser is able to access a newsgroups server? Currently, I am using >> Netscape 7.2 under Windows 98SE. If I upgrade to Windows 10, I probably >> won't find anything from Microsoft which will support reasonable access to >> newsgroups. Is there a link to a site which has an application that > supports >> access to newsgroups in a manner similar to how Netscape 7.2 provides >> access. BEST would be a browser that also supports access to e-mail in > the >> same manner as Netscape 7.2 and which also allows me to copy all of the >> archived 100,000 e-mails and posts which I have acquired over the last 15 >> years. It is only about 300 MB, so the size is not a factor. >> >> I know someone will probably recall the same question a while ago, but the >> answer given then was not sufficient to make the switch. At least a link > to >> the site which has the files to be downloaded would be needed since just >> the name of the application does not seem to help me. >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------------- >> When I registered 8 years ago, I received the following reply copied > below. >> There is no charge for the service. I have found that about 99% of the > posts >> which appear at eternal-september also appear at sunsite. Mainly, I use >> sunsite to check that I am receiving all the posts which have been made to >> other servers in addition to having a second source just in case one of > the >> servers has crashed or disappears. >> >> The e-mail to sign up was sent to: >> news-signup at sunsite.dk >> >> The other e-mail address that I used to inquire about an acceptable >> newsgroup which was not yet carried (alt.sys.pdp11 - but is now) was: >> staff at sunsite.dk >> >> The information should be sufficient to inquire and register. >> >> Note that retention is short for some newsgroups, probably only a few days >> while for others the retention can be over a year. So checking the posts > on >> at least a daily basis is recommended until you determine the retention >> period. >> >> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -------------- >> Dear "e-mail address" >> >> You have been registered at the dotsrc.org usenet server. >> >> To be able to read and post articles, you will have to tell your news > client, >> that it must perform authentication. >> >> If you forget your username/password, then just register again. >> >> There is no need to remove your registration - your registration will be >> removed when it has not been used for 3 months. >> >> More information can be found at: >> >> http://dotsrc.org/usenet/ >> >> Your username is: "e-mail address" >> Your password is: "six character password" >> Your newsserver is: news.sunsite.dk >> >> IMPORTANT: October 15th 2005 a new access policy was introduced, in order >> to make the main focus of the usenet service consistent with our remaining >> policy and focus. For further info please see >> http://dotsrc.org/usenet/accesschange/ >> >> Please remark, that the username and password is for your personal usage >> only! >> >> Upon any abuse, your account will be terminated immediately. >> >> Best regards, >> Dotsrc.org News Administrator >> staff at dotsrc.org >> >> -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From useddec at gmail.com Sun Mar 6 22:18:56 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 22:18:56 -0600 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights In-Reply-To: <115e7f.340e5040.440e10f8@aol.com> References: <115e7f.340e5040.440e10f8@aol.com> Message-ID: Which box? On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 5:02 PM, wrote: > I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights! Ed# > _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sun Mar 6 22:24:14 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sun, 6 Mar 2016 23:24:14 -0500 Subject: Imaging RX02 disks for simh (was: Re: MU-BASIC V2 and RT-11 V03B distribution disks.) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DD026E.2060303@compsys.to> >Brian Walenz wrote: >How the heck do you copy an RX02 disk for use in simh? > >I've been trying to transfer RX02 images between simh and a real PDP11 >(that has only two RX02's, console, and ethernet). So far, I've only >attempted sending an RX02 image from the PDP to simh, but simh fails to >read it: "?DIR-F-Invalid directory". Even after adding 13*512 bytes to the >start for the missing track, I still get invalid directory. > > In order to verify how an arbitrary container file is handled under SimH, I attempted to run V3.9-0 under Win98SE. I doubt that the actual Windows operating system makes a difference, but just in case. I was able to boot RT-11 using an MSCP device for which: ATTACH RX0: FRXBAR.DSK ATTACH RQ0: FRQBAR.DSK BOOT RQ0: When I arrived in RT-11 after having booted on FRQBAR.DSK, performing the RT-11 command: DUMP/TERM DX0:/ONLY:0 provided all zeros in the dump output of block zero. Further, when I attempted to use RY0: which I assume is the device name for RX02 images, all the attempts were rejected. On the other hand, when I used Ersatz-11, MOUNT DU0: FRQBAR.DSK /RO MOUNT DX0: FRXBAR.DSK /RO BOOT DU0: when I arrived in RT-11 after having booted on FRQBAR.DSK, performing the RT-11 command: DUMP/TERM DX0:/ONLY:0 the expected values were displayed in the dump output of block zero. Further, when I attempted to use DY0: which is the device name under Ersatz-11 for RX02 images, everything worked as expected. More to the point, I was also able to: MOUNT DU1: FRXBAR.DSK /RO (Ersatz-11 allows access to using both DU: and DY: emulation at the same time when the access is READ ONLY), and determine that both DU1: and DY0: were identical when I used BINCOM to compare both RT-11 devices. All 988 blocks of both DU1: and DY0: could be read and were found to be the same. Obviously, that was expected since the same container file was used in each MOUNT command. But the fact that Ersatz-11 is able to access FRXBAR.DSK and SimH is not able to do so is what is so confusing. One minor point that seems worth while to mention is that the Ersatz-11 emulation for the DY: (DEC RX02 device) also supports DSDD media which have 1976 blocks and with a suitable floppy drive and controller support double-sided, double density operation, or what DEC intended to be the RX03 floppy drive. While it seems that DEC never sold such the RX03 hardware, there was code in V04.00 of RT-11 to make the attempt to support double-sided media as a SYSGEN option. Unfortunately, the code that was released with V04.00 of RT-11 was not quite correct. By V05.00 of RT-11, the code to support double-sided operation had been removed. However, at the very least, an RX03 floppy drive was produced and sold by DSD (Data Systems Design) and sold as the DSD 880/30. Again unfortunately, the controller supported only 18-bit hardware addresses which required an enhancement of the DYX.SYS device driver to support all 4 MB of memory for user buffers. I have mentioned this enhancement a few times, but there seems to be zero interest. Since I don't have access to the SimH manuals at the moment, I don't know what I am doing that is incorrect. But since I have never attempted to use SimH before with either RX01 or RX02 images, there might be other problems. I hope that the above information helps. I would appreciate any information in respect of using the TCP/IP hardware and software to access a Qbus PDP-11 via ethernet, and especially from a system running RT-11 and / or TSX-Plus under both SimH and Ersatz-11. >My process is to COPY/DEVICE/FILES DY1:/START:0/END:330 DY0:BLOCK1.DAT, >then FTP that off the PDP, delete the file, and do the remaining two thirds >of the disk. Once all are transferred, "cat *DAT > floppy.dsk". > > The RT-11 commands are correct. Why SimH has difficulty is not understood. >I can transfer RX50 images using the same recipe, though I haven't tried >sending an RX50 image created on simh back to the PDP. > >For what it's worth, I'm having the same problem with Alan Baldwin's TCP/IP >disk images from http://shop-pdp.net/rthtml/tcpip.htm. simh can't read the >individual DSK images, but could read the *.PKG with the disks inside, and >from that, I could (RT-11) MOUNT each disk to a logical device. > > I recognize some of the details of what you are doing, but I have no idea of the actual hardware and software that you are using. I would like to use TCP/IP to move files backs and forth under RT-11, but I don't know what hardware is needed, especially if there are to be transfers between RT-11 running under SimH or Ersatz-11. I do have a router between two of my Windows systems, so that part is already working. But I am quite sure that the speeds between the Windows systems and the PDP-11 don't match at all. Of late, I have found that working on the RT-11 Symbolic Debugger, SDHX.SYS to be specific under a Mapped RT-11 Monitor to be sufficient challenge to keep me busy. Version Y01.16 has a few bugs which need to be fixed. There are also some enhancements that will, hopefully, improve its use. Jerome Fine >b > > >>On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 11:50 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>I found some 8 inch floppies with distribution kits for MU-BASIC V2 and >>RT-11 V03B. I imaged those and put them here >>http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/rx01-and-rx02-floppy-disks >>if anyone is interested in playing with MU-BASIC. There are both RAW disk >>images and to be used in SimH and like and also DMK/IMD files. >> >>The system that floppies came with is this little ( >>http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l >>) >>system once used at Scania in S?dert?lje. >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 7 06:41:24 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 07:41:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights Message-ID: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Ed Sharpe > I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights! That's going to be a little tricky. The LSI11 obvously doesn't have a hardware interface on/in the CPU which would allow a lot of the functions traditionally found in a front panel (e.g. examining registers, single step, etc). Some of them can be done (e.g. a halt/run switch, which LSI-11's already support), and others could be 'sorta' done - e.g. if the CPU is running, DMA could be used to read/write memory locations. Probably the best way to have an emulated front panel is to build a board that i) emulates the system serial console on the QBUS (i.e. responds to 177560-6), and ii) has a micro or something which uses ODT to emulate the full range of normal console commands, and drives a set of LEDs and switches. E.g. hitting the 'continue' switch when the processor was halted would issue a 'P' command to ODT; when the 'halt' switch is raised, it would read the PC printed when the CPU halted, and display that in LEDs, etc, etc. Sounds like an amusing project for someone. Any takers? :-) Noel From pbirkel at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 07:30:20 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 08:30:20 -0500 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights In-Reply-To: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <017d01d17875$7f670620$7e351260$@gmail.com> Sounds like PDP11GUI ... with the glass-interface supplemented by a mechanical one? -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel Chiappa Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 7:41 AM To: cctalk at classiccmp.org Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights > From: Ed Sharpe > I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights! That's going to be a little tricky. The LSI11 obvously doesn't have a hardware interface on/in the CPU which would allow a lot of the functions traditionally found in a front panel (e.g. examining registers, single step, etc). Some of them can be done (e.g. a halt/run switch, which LSI-11's already support), and others could be 'sorta' done - e.g. if the CPU is running, DMA could be used to read/write memory locations. Probably the best way to have an emulated front panel is to build a board that i) emulates the system serial console on the QBUS (i.e. responds to 177560-6), and ii) has a micro or something which uses ODT to emulate the full range of normal console commands, and drives a set of LEDs and switches. E.g. hitting the 'continue' switch when the processor was halted would issue a 'P' command to ODT; when the 'halt' switch is raised, it would read the PC printed when the CPU halted, and display that in LEDs, etc, etc. Sounds like an amusing project for someone. Any takers? :-) Noel From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Mar 7 07:58:32 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 08:58:32 -0500 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights In-Reply-To: <017d01d17875$7f670620$7e351260$@gmail.com> References: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <017d01d17875$7f670620$7e351260$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1648B92C-83BC-4DD1-807A-893CFFA7A879@verizon.net> Does PDP11GUI have blinkenlights? I use GUI for my Heath H11 and it works great but I do like blinkenlights. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 7, 2016, at 8:30 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > > Sounds like PDP11GUI ... with the glass-interface supplemented by a > mechanical one? > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Noel > Chiappa > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 7:41 AM > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org > Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu > Subject: Re: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights > >> From: Ed Sharpe > >> I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights! > > That's going to be a little tricky. The LSI11 obvously doesn't have a > hardware interface on/in the CPU which would allow a lot of the functions > traditionally found in a front panel (e.g. examining registers, single step, > etc). > > Some of them can be done (e.g. a halt/run switch, which LSI-11's already > support), and others could be 'sorta' done - e.g. if the CPU is running, DMA > could be used to read/write memory locations. > > Probably the best way to have an emulated front panel is to build a board > that i) emulates the system serial console on the QBUS (i.e. responds to > 177560-6), and ii) has a micro or something which uses ODT to emulate the > full range of normal console commands, and drives a set of LEDs and > switches. > > E.g. hitting the 'continue' switch when the processor was halted would issue > a 'P' command to ODT; when the 'halt' switch is raised, it would read the PC > printed when the CPU halted, and display that in LEDs, etc, etc. > > Sounds like an amusing project for someone. Any takers? :-) > > Noel > From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 08:14:36 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 09:14:36 -0500 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights In-Reply-To: <1648B92C-83BC-4DD1-807A-893CFFA7A879@verizon.net> References: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <017d01d17875$7f670620$7e351260$@gmail.com> <1648B92C-83BC-4DD1-807A-893CFFA7A879@verizon.net> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Richard Cini wrote: > Does PDP11GUI have blinkenlights? I use GUI for my Heath H11 and it works > great but I do like blinkenlights. > > Rich > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > No, it's a monitor program, here is an example of me loading an echo characters program into the computer using from PDP11GUI as the interface. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.jpg -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Mar 7 09:08:48 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 10:08:48 -0500 Subject: I want a front panel for my lsi 11 w/switches and lights In-Reply-To: References: <20160307124124.9410E18C0A7@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <017d01d17875$7f670620$7e351260$@gmail.com> <1648B92C-83BC-4DD1-807A-893CFFA7A879@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks Bill. I use PDP11GUI for loading the TU58 boot loader into my H11. It's a great program. I just thought I missed a glitzy feature! Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 7, 2016, at 9:14 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >> >> Does PDP11GUI have blinkenlights? I use GUI for my Heath H11 and it works >> great but I do like blinkenlights. >> >> Rich >> >> >> Sent from my iPhone > No, it's a monitor program, here is an example of me loading an echo > characters program into the computer using from PDP11GUI as the interface. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.jpg > > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio From lproven at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 09:14:47 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:14:47 +0100 Subject: SeaMonkey - Re: Usenet News Servers In-Reply-To: <02f601d177e7$79baa1c0$6d2fe540$@gmail.com> References: <055601d176de$000aa550$001feff0$@ntlworld.com> <56DC3E40.6050208@compsys.to> <56DC451A.9080506@telegraphics.com.au> <56DC55A0.6020804@compsys.to> <02f601d177e7$79baa1c0$6d2fe540$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 6 March 2016 at 21:33, Dave Wade wrote: > SeaMonkey is essentially the same code as in Thunderbird/Firefox. Personally > I prefer to keep browser and mail/news separate. Pretty sure it will import > from the old Netscape Communicator. It appears that Jerome has killfiled me, as I have answered this question for him at considerable length several times. Perhaps someone would like to forward my old messages to him. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 11:21:17 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:21:17 -0500 Subject: Passing of Ray Tomlinson Message-ID: We communicate today, as yesterday, via email. Ray Tomlinson,a 1960's ARPAnet pioneer has passed on. He 'invented' the @ symbol. My how old things are truly great. Murray :) From jws at jwsss.com Mon Mar 7 12:25:30 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 10:25:30 -0800 Subject: 11/23+ box with Microvax Memory Message-ID: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> I see on the usual site, an 11/23 box with a couple of random boards, one of which is an M7608 board. This is a Microvax memory board. I wonder if one can build up a Microvax in that backplane, or if that is not recommended. It would obviously be an 18 bit backplane. The backplane is H9276A. The auction also has a M9047 Bus grant card in it, so is essentially just the box. But I'd never seen Microvax parts plugged into those backplanes, and it made me think. thanks Jim From tdk.knight at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 12:27:31 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 12:27:31 -0600 Subject: Passing of Ray Tomlinson In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Was all over the CBC today up here in Canada this morning or least in wpg On Mar 7, 2016 11:21 AM, "Murray McCullough" wrote: > We communicate today, as yesterday, via email. Ray Tomlinson,a 1960's > ARPAnet pioneer has passed on. He 'invented' the @ symbol. My how old > things are truly great. > > Murray :) > From glen.slick at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 13:10:35 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 11:10:35 -0800 Subject: 11/23+ box with Microvax Memory In-Reply-To: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> References: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 7, 2016 at 10:25 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > I see on the usual site, an 11/23 box with a couple of random boards, one of > which is an M7608 board. This is a Microvax memory board. > > I wonder if one can build up a Microvax in that backplane, or if that is not > recommended. It would obviously be an 18 bit backplane. The backplane is > H9276A. > > The auction also has a M9047 Bus grant card in it, so is essentially just > the box. But I'd never seen Microvax parts plugged into those backplanes, > and it made me think. The H9273 is a 9 row Q18/CD backplane and the H9276 is a 9 row Q22/CD backplane. I don't see why you couldn't build up a QBus MicroVAX in an H9276 backplane. You'd have to hack up something to mount the console bulkhead panel in a BA11 box instead of the standard BA23 box. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 7 13:16:31 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 11:16:31 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions Message-ID: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Hi, Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW of FRAM. I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of prototypes because I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering kits). To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the UMF11, I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s any interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the UMF11. Thanks. TTFN - Guy From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Mar 7 13:20:03 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:20:03 +0000 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Griffith Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 9:36 PM > Would someone please point me towards a tutorial of some sort on running > the assembler on TOPS20 as presented in Mark Crispin's Panda distribution? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/AA-4159C-TM_Macro_Assembler_Reference_Apr78.pdf http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/DEC-20-OMUGA-A-D_Monitor_Calls_Users_Guide_May76.pdf If you are comfortable with assembler language programming, these should suffice. If not, there are pointers to one online textbook in the recent flurry of messages discussing the Gorin textbook; besides the TOPS-20 books there is the Singer DEC-10 assembler book (monitor calls differ immensely from TOPS-20, so of limited use for you). The following are the most recent system calls manuals, but as text files they're actually harder to read till you're used to the format from the older version of the user's guide above. http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_USERS.MEM.txt http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/JSYS_REFERENCE.MEM.txt (Oh. TOPS-20 monitor calls are referred to as "JSYS calls", since that is the machine instruction, opcode 104, which invokes them. Thus these names.) Once you have a basic grasp of the assembler from the above, I recommend perusing the sources to the MM mail manager suite of programs, which use very good programming style, including the "structured programming" macros found in MACSYM.MAC. Ralph did not think highly of them, and used an older style in which conditional code is included in literals; the textbooks all seem to utilize that style. Wait. You said "running the assembler". Did you mean, "How do I invoke Macro-20?" That's simple: The commands COMPILE, LOAD, EXECUTE, and DEBUG all recognize the file type .MAC as requiring Macro-20 and do the Right Thing(TM) automagically. If you need more than that, the Macro-20 manual above and the LINK manual (damn it, there's not a copy on Bitsavers--talk to me, Al!) will provide details of how to invoke them. COMPILE does only that. LOAD will compile if necessary and link the result into an executable image in memory (which can be saved as an executable program file with the SAVE command). EXECUTE and DEBUG will compile if needed, link, and respectively either simply start running or invoke DDT and leave you ready to execute, examine memory, etc. Do you need a pointer to the user commands manual? http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/USERS.MEM.txt Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From pete at dunnington.plus.com Mon Mar 7 13:54:17 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 19:54:17 +0000 Subject: 11/23+ box with Microvax Memory In-Reply-To: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> References: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56DDDC69.6050302@dunnington.plus.com> On 07/03/2016 18:25, jwsmobile wrote: > I see on the usual site, an 11/23 box with a couple of random boards, > one of which is an M7608 board. This is a Microvax memory board. > > I wonder if one can build up a Microvax in that backplane, or if that is > not recommended. It would obviously be an 18 bit backplane. The > backplane is H9276A. That's a 22-bit backplane so I don't see why you couldn't build a microVAX in it. Bear in mind it's all straight QQ-CD, unlike BA23 and BA123 backplanes normally used for microVAXen, which have serpentine sections and can hold more cards. -- Pete From mattislind at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:14:06 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 22:14:06 +0100 Subject: HP 21MX paper tapes Message-ID: I have been going to our HP 21MX paper tapes that come with a M-series system that we received many years ago: http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/hp-paper-tapes I tried to check if they already were available online somewhere but didn't find them when doing quick checks on random tape part numbers in the spread sheet. Maybe they are and then I don't need to bother reading them. Otherwise I will try to read them if there are interest and when I get time. /Mattis From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 15:27:37 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:27:37 +1300 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > Hi, > > Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my > original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW > of FRAM. > > I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design > a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board > design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). > > What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still > be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and what machines it could be used in? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 7 15:46:10 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 13:46:10 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <0A4D2580-ADFC-4289-B351-9BDF7D041C61@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> Hi, >> >> Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my >> original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW >> of FRAM. >> >> I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design >> a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board >> design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). >> >> What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still >> be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? > > Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and > what machines it could be used in? MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any Unibus PDP11. TTFN - Guy From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 16:06:28 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:06:28 +1300 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: <0A4D2580-ADFC-4289-B351-9BDF7D041C61@shiresoft.com> References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <0A4D2580-ADFC-4289-B351-9BDF7D041C61@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> Hi, >>> >>> Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my >>> original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW >>> of FRAM. >>> >>> I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design >>> a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board >>> design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). >>> >>> What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still >>> be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? >> >> Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and >> what machines it could be used in? > > MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW > of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for > memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any > Unibus PDP11. Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable Unibus memory to any -11 from the 11/20 on up? I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow! (It was the 'multifunction' bit that confused me; I wondered if it was doing something else beyond memory) Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From evan at snarc.net Mon Mar 7 16:17:17 2016 From: evan at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 17:17:17 -0500 Subject: OT: domain for sale Message-ID: <56DDFDED.3030008@snarc.net> Is anyone interested in buying technologyrewind.com? It would be a good name for a collector's site. From ggs at shiresoft.com Mon Mar 7 16:18:39 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:18:39 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <0A4D2580-ADFC-4289-B351-9BDF7D041C61@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <6AE43598-B693-4C27-81F9-2615F9556DEE@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 7, 2016, at 2:06 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 10:46 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> >>> On Mar 7, 2016, at 1:27 PM, Mike Ross wrote: >>> >>> On Tue, Mar 8, 2016 at 8:16 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>>> Hi, >>>> >>>> Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my >>>> original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW >>>> of FRAM. >>>> >>>> I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design >>>> a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board >>>> design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). >>>> >>>> What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still >>>> be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? >>> >>> Ummm enlighten us a little more about what exactly it could do and >>> what machines it could be used in? >> >> MEM11A? It can be used in any PDP11 that has SPC slots and will provide 128KW >> of non-volatile RAM. I had originally gone down this road to provide memory for >> memory challenged machines (most notably the 11/20) but could be used in any >> Unibus PDP11. > > Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable > Unibus memory to any -11 from the 11/20 on up? > > I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow! (It was the 'multifunction' > bit that confused me; I wondered if it was doing something else beyond > memory) > > OK, part of this is my own fault. I started working on a board design (MEM11A) that was only memory. During one of the (several) re-designs it morphed into the multi-funciton board that I?ve also been calling MEM11A. To alleviate the confusion as I?m thinking of resurrecting the *original* MEM11A design (just Unibus Memory), I?m renaming the more recent design (which I also called MEM11A) to UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function) which has in addition to memory, DL11s, RF11/RS11s, etc to be able to support all of the peripherals (sans RK11) needed for Unix V1. So to re-iterate, I?m looking at producing two products: MEM11A which is just 128KW of memory in an SPC form factor UMF11 which is 128KW of memory, 2 DL11s, RF11/RS11s, boot roms, etc. The UMF11 has been taking so long because it has a micro-controller (J1) on it to perform the configuration and emulation tasks. It has no switches and only a few jumpers. Every thing else is configured through one of the serial ports. I?ve finished the Verilog code for the UMF11 and am close to completing the simulation of all of the individual blocks. I still have some uCode work to do in terms of emulated devices but now that all of the H/W interfaces are designed and coded, I can complete that as well. The remainder is doing the schematic capture, board layout and testing?lots and lots of testing. ;-) The MEM11A is *much* simpler and the work I need to do on it is mainly to put the random logic into a CPLD. In that respect, the MEM11A is pretty hardwired compared to the UMF11. TTFN - Guy From aek at bitsavers.org Mon Mar 7 16:34:13 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 14:34:13 -0800 Subject: HP 21MX paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DE01E5.6080408@bitsavers.org> They would be part of the cupertino binary distribution tapes on bitsavers. Unlike DEC, HP had part numbers for EVERY program, with date-coded revisions. On 3/7/16 1:14 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have been going to our HP 21MX paper tapes that come with a M-series > system that we received many years ago: > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/hp-paper-tapes > > I tried to check if they already were available online somewhere but didn't > find them From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 7 16:37:17 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 16:37:17 -0600 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <0A4D2580-ADFC-4289-B351-9BDF7D041C61@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000001d178c1$e74b2d60$b5e18820$@classiccmp.org> Mike wrote... ----------------- Ah ok so it's a universal RAM board that will add modern reliable Unibus memory to any -11 from the 11/20 on up? I'll have six please! Preferably tomorrow! ---------------- All comes down to what I can afford, how much that detracts funds from purchase of the "newer version" that does disk storage as well.... But I'd tentatively say I'd want 2 of 'em. J From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Mar 7 21:56:16 2016 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Mon, 07 Mar 2016 22:56:16 -0500 Subject: HP 21MX paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 22:14, Mattis Lind wrote: > I have been going to our HP 21MX paper tapes that come with a M-series > system that we received many years ago: > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/hp-paper-tapes > > I tried to check if they already were available online somewhere but > didn't find them.... The HP 1000 Software Collection at Bitsavers has a numerical list of all of the tape images that are archived. It's under: /bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/master-files/ Please check your list against the "master-files-list.txt" file, which lists all of the files in the collection. But first, please check against "master-bad-files-list.txt", which are the files in the collection that are damaged. If you have good copies any of the damaged files, or of any files that are not in the full list, they would be welcome additions. -- Dave From useddec at gmail.com Mon Mar 7 23:17:28 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Mon, 7 Mar 2016 23:17:28 -0600 Subject: Cables In-Reply-To: <56D86E66.9050107@pico-systems.com> References: <56D7DF27.6080809@jwsss.com> <56D86E66.9050107@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: I found my programmers panel, but none have cables.Do you have the DEC part number? On Thu, Mar 3, 2016 at 11:03 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/03/2016 12:52 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > >> Anyone have a source for IDC cables / supplies? I'm in need of some 40, >> 50 and various other cables and connectors. >> >> I need some specifically for dec systems so those would be even better. >> >> The most urgent need is cables for the PDP 8/A front panel cabling. They >> are all 40 pin. I've got a unit with the programmers panel, so need cables >> for it and for the basic power panel. >> >> Generally, you can make the 40-pin DEC cables yourself. All you need is > cable, the connectors and a vise. > I do these all the time. (Harder is the DEC proprietary printed ribbon > cables.) > > Jon > From jdbryan at acm.org Mon Mar 7 23:39:07 2016 From: jdbryan at acm.org (J. David Bryan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 00:39:07 -0500 Subject: Release of the HP 3000 Series III simulator Message-ID: I am pleased to announce the release of a simulator for the HP 3000 Series III computer system. It is available from the Computer History Simulation Project (SIMH) site: https://github.com/simh/simh The simulator runs the MPE-V/R operating system, supports a selection of simulated disc and tape drives, and accommodates up to sixteen concurrent users. A software kit containing a disc image with MPE preinstalled is available as described in the release notes that accompany the simulator. I would like to thank Frank McConnell and Al Kossow for their invaluable help in answering questions and supplying documentation for the HP 3000. -- Dave From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 01:47:59 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 08:47:59 +0100 Subject: HP 21MX paper tapes In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-03-08 4:56 GMT+01:00 J. David Bryan : > On Monday, March 7, 2016 at 22:14, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > I have been going to our HP 21MX paper tapes that come with a M-series > > system that we received many years ago: > > > > http://www.datormuseum.se/documentation-software/hp-paper-tapes > > > > I tried to check if they already were available online somewhere but > > didn't find them.... > > The HP 1000 Software Collection at Bitsavers has a numerical list of all of > the tape images that are archived. It's under: > > /bits/HP/HP_1000_software_collection/master-files/ > > Please check your list against the "master-files-list.txt" file, which > lists all of the files in the collection. But first, please check against > "master-bad-files-list.txt", which are the files in the collection that are > damaged. If you have good copies any of the damaged files, or of any files > that are not in the full list, they would be welcome additions. > Thanks for the pointer to the master-files-list.txt. While lists I found a few that weren't present in that list: 24151-60001 D RTE/DOS RELOCATEABLE LIBRARY-F2E (EAU) BINARY 24152-60001 C RTE/DOS FORTRAN IV LIBRARY R BINARY 24156-60001 1419 DOS DVR31 FOR 2870/7900/7901 DISC BINARY But these files I found listed in /bits/HP/paperTapes/JeffM/old_index.html.txt So it seems that all of them are stored online somehow! /Mattis > -- Dave > > From dave at 661.org Tue Mar 8 01:52:50 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:52:50 +0000 (UTC) Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 7 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Saturday, March 05, 2016 9:36 PM > >> Would someone please point me towards a tutorial of some sort on running >> the assembler on TOPS20 as presented in Mark Crispin's Panda distribution? [snip] > COMPILE does only that. LOAD will compile if necessary and link the result > into an executable image in memory (which can be saved as an executable > program file with the SAVE command). EXECUTE and DEBUG will compile if > needed, link, and respectively either simply start running or invoke DDT > and leave you ready to execute, examine memory, etc. > > Do you need a pointer to the user commands manual? > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS20/V7/USERS.MEM.txt Specifically I'm trying to build and run this: TITLE HACK SEARCH MONSYM HACK: SKIPA 4,[^D4] HACK0: SOJL 4,TRAILL SETZB 1,3 HACK1: TLNE 1,777777 JRST HACK0 MOVE 2,1 CIRC 2,-^D18 SKIPN 4 SKIPA 1,3 IOR 1,3 LITES% HALT HRRZ 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% MOVE 1,2 AOJA 1,HACK1 TRAILL: SETZ 1, TRALL0: LITES% HALT MOVE 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% JUMPL 2,TRAILR LSHC 1,^D37 AOJA 1,TRALL0 TRAILR: MOVSI 1,400000 TRALR0: LITES% HALT MOVE 2,1 MOVEI 1,30 DISMS% MOVE 1,2 TRNE 1,1 JRST HACK ASH 1,-1 JRST TRALR0 END HACK When I do COMPILE, LOAD, and SAVE on it and run the executable, I get this: $hack ?Illegal instruction 247100,,777756 at HACK1+3 ?Undefined operation code -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Tue Mar 8 06:41:06 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:41:06 -0500 Subject: BA23 Box with RLV11 (Was: 11/23+ box with Microvax Memory) In-Reply-To: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> References: <56DDC79A.4080605@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56DEC862.7020103@compsys.to> >jwsmobile wrote: > I see on the usual site, an 11/23 box with a couple of random boards, > one of which is an M7608 board. This is a Microvax memory board. > > I wonder if one can build up a Microvax in that backplane, or if that > is not recommended. It would obviously be an 18 bit backplane. The > backplane is H9276A. > > The auction also has a M9047 Bus grant card in it, so is essentially > just the box. But I'd never seen Microvax parts plugged into those > backplanes, and it made me think. > > thanks > Jim Probably not as unexpected, but just as unusual in my mind: I once saw a BA23 box with an M8190-AB (PDP-11/73) CPU in slot 1 followed by an RLV11 (M8013 / M8014) in slots 2 / 3 connected to an RL02 drive. Usually, by the time a system had a PDP-11/73 board, a couple of MB of memory and an RL02 drive, the RL02 controller was upgraded to an RLV12 (M8061) board. NOTE that slots 2 / 3 had to be used for the RLV11 since they were the only 2 slots left with ABCD. Placing the RLV11 in any other position in a BA23 box lets out the magic smoke. As a bit of additional information, the other 5 slots were used to hold the memory and other modules that were required. There did not seem to be any problem with the memory being placed in slot 4. Jerome Fine From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 8 07:28:55 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 07:28:55 -0600 Subject: Release of the HP 3000 Series III simulator In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001a01d1793e$76bbafc0$64330f40$@classiccmp.org> Awesome Dave! Can't wait to test drive it. A very sincere Thank You for all the time & effort you've spent on that. Best, J From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 12:11:23 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:11:23 +0100 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 8:16 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: MEM11A questions Hi, Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW of FRAM. I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of prototypes because I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering kits). To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the UMF11, I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s any interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the UMF11. Thanks. TTFN - Guy --------- Guy, I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU. So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct? Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11. Thanks, - Henk From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 8 12:16:03 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 13:16:03 -0500 Subject: Release of the HP 3000 Series III simulator Message-ID: <1669a9.290709f5.441070e3@aol.com> I will have to try this... a great undertaking Dave! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/8/2016 6:29:11 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Awesome Dave! Can't wait to test drive it. A very sincere Thank You for all the time & effort you've spent on that. Best, J From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 12:17:12 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:17:12 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 8:16 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: MEM11A questions > > Hi, > > Over the weekend I was looking through some old CAD files and came across my > original design for the MEM11A. It was an SPC board that contained only 128KW > of FRAM. > > I?m wondering if there?s any interest in that board. I do have to iterate on the design > a bit but I should be able to get something ready sooner than with my current board > design (plus I know it will fit in an SPC form factor because I?ve already done it). > > What I?d like to know from folks is if there?s interest in that design? Would there still > be interest in what I?m now calling UMF11 (Unibus Multi-Function)? > > I won?t have pricing (on either) until I build (and debug) a couple of prototypes because > I need to know what the assembly costs would be (no I won?t be offering kits). > > To also answer the other question, no I haven?t run into any issues with the UMF11, > I just came across this long forgotten design and wanted to know if there?s any > interest in it as I can probably get it into ?production? sooner than the UMF11. > > Thanks. > > TTFN - Guy > > --------- > Guy, > I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU. > So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other > interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably > overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct? > Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11. The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more. TTFN - Guy From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 8 12:39:18 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 12:39:18 -0600 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <000d01d17969$d2d0eed0$7872cc70$@classiccmp.org> Guy wrote... ------ The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more. ------ So MEM11 doesn't have a MMU "on board" then, got it. Just curious... I seem to recall you were having trouble fitting all the desired functionality on the UMF11, probably taking it out of the SPC form factor (or something similar). Would moving forward with your MEM11 as "the" memory option and then removing memory from the UMF deliverables - free up the silicon to solve the earlier size issue? J From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 12:47:46 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 10:47:46 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: <000d01d17969$d2d0eed0$7872cc70$@classiccmp.org> References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <000d01d17969$d2d0eed0$7872cc70$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <8F02B97F-BCC6-4D31-829B-20EBCCB6726F@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:39 AM, Jay West wrote: > > > Guy wrote... > ------ > The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more. > ------ > So MEM11 doesn't have a MMU "on board" then, got it. The MMU is a CPU function. > > Just curious... I seem to recall you were having trouble fitting all the desired functionality on the UMF11, probably taking it out of the SPC form factor (or something similar). > Would moving forward with your MEM11 as "the" memory option and then removing memory from the UMF deliverables - free up the silicon to solve the earlier size issue? > It doesn?t help. On the UMF11, I use a 256K x 16 FRAM for ?memory?. Since the Unibus only can only access 128K x 16, I?m using the other ?half? of the memory for other stuff (J1 uCode images, configuration settings, Boot ROM images, Console emulator ROM image, etc, etc). So it really doesn?t save anything if I removed that functionality (the footprint of the 256K x 16 FRAM is the same as the 128K x 16 FRAM). There?s a lot of random crap that I have to deal with (5v to 3.3v translators) power supplies (3.3v, 2.5v, 1.8v), connectors for the SLUs, etc. However, what I?m most worried about is power. According to DEC specs, an SPC board can only draw 4 amps off the 5v supply. I?m not sure what the current draw will be. I?ll know more once I build the prototype and can actually measure it. TTFN - Guy From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Tue Mar 8 13:12:16 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 19:12:16 +0000 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Griffith Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:53 PM > Specifically I'm trying to build and run this: > TITLE HACK > SEARCH MONSYM > > HACK: SKIPA 4,[^D4] > HACK0: SOJL 4,TRAILL > SETZB 1,3 > HACK1: TLNE 1,777777 > JRST HACK0 > MOVE 2,1 > CIRC 2,-^D18 ^^^^^^^^^^^^ ... > END HACK > When I do COMPILE, LOAD, and SAVE on it and run the executable, I get this: > $hack > ?Illegal instruction 247100,,777756 at HACK1+3 > ?Undefined operation code As well you should. There is no CIRC in the standard PDP-10 instruction set. Opcode 247 is unassigned, so if someone defined CIRC locally (say, in an OPDEF, although I don't see one here), the result you report would be precisely what I would expect. Where did this code come from? From the presence of the LITES% JSYS I infer that it has something to do with Bob Armstrong's panel. Perhaps you should direct a query in his direction? SpareTimeGizmos.com, and all that. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Tue Mar 8 13:12:25 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 20:12:25 +0100 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: MEM11A questions > On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen > wrote: > Guy, > I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the > CPU. > So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other > interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably > overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct? > Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11. The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access more. TTFN - Guy --------- Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-) The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK). Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM? (32/64/128KW) - Henk From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 13:15:41 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 11:15:41 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <1947018C-5E52-4EA3-94D4-F65218A73A6E@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 8, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor > Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: MEM11A questions > > >> On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Guy, >> I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU. >> So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other >> interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably >> overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct? >> Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11. > > The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access > more. > > TTFN - Guy > --------- > Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-) > The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK). > Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM? > (32/64/128KW) > No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards assembled at the board house). TTFN - Guy From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 14:35:01 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:35:01 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche Message-ID: I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a while back. A buddy of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy microfiche scanner, I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is scratched pretty bad, does anyone else around here have this set, so that i can recover the full page set? --Devin From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 14:44:27 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:44:27 +1300 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: <1947018C-5E52-4EA3-94D4-F65218A73A6E@shiresoft.com> References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <1947018C-5E52-4EA3-94D4-F65218A73A6E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:15 AM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > >> On Mar 8, 2016, at 11:12 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> >> -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Guy Sotomayor >> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2016 7:17 PM >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Subject: Re: MEM11A questions >> >> >>> On Mar 8, 2016, at 10:11 AM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >>> Guy, >>> I have one 11/20. CPU state unknown ... but the card cage only has the CPU. >>> So I would be glad to get some memory. Plenty of space left for other >>> interfaces, so the MEM11 would be sufficient for me. 128 KW is probably >>> overkill. The 11/20 can only address up to 64 KW, correct? >>> Depending cost, I am seriously interested in one MEM11. >> >> The 11/20 can address only 32KW (64KB). You need an MMU to access >> more. >> >> TTFN - Guy >> --------- >> Ah yes, of course Guy! The 32 kW vs. 64 kB error. I'll never learn ;-) >> The 11/20 did never have an MMU (AFAIK). >> Will the MEM11 come in "flavors" regarding the installed amount of FRAM? >> (32/64/128KW) >> > > No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to > try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards > assembled at the board house). But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the unaddressable memory beyond 32KW? Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 8 14:48:10 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 15:48:10 -0500 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <1947018C-5E52-4EA3-94D4-F65218A73A6E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <131F35FA-59EA-4AF1-9381-308710CB7919@comcast.net> > On Mar 8, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >>> ... >> >> No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to >> try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards >> assembled at the board house). > > But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I > presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped > back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the > unaddressable memory beyond 32KW? The Unibus has 18 address lines. This should work so long as the memory doens't respond to I/O page addresses (the top 4kW of the address space). That's a requirement for any Unibus memory on any PDP11. The difference between 11/20 and 11/05 vs. the others is that the lack of MMU means that the CPU can't generate addresses in the range 28 to 124 kW. (I/O devices can, though, which would be rather interesting.) paul From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 8 14:58:25 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 12:58:25 -0800 Subject: MEM11A questions In-Reply-To: References: <472D18D1-5297-4BFA-B47C-37E183A2D97B@shiresoft.com> <1947018C-5E52-4EA3-94D4-F65218A73A6E@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 8, 2016, at 12:44 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > >> >> No, it will only have 128KW. Since it?s a single FRAM part, I?m not going to >> try and ?stock? different flavors (especially since I?ll be having the boards >> assembled at the board house). > > But you will do something to allow memory to be switched in and out? I > presume this thing wouldn't work in an 11/20 unless it was strapped > back to 32KW? Or will the 11/20 be happy and simply ignore the > unaddressable memory beyond 32KW? > It will have 2 sets of configuration switches. One is the starting address (on a 4KB boundary). The other is the number of 4KB blocks that the board will respond to. I may have a couple of other options like the speed at which it can respond (the FRAMs have a 35 ns access time) and the size of the IO hole. I wrote the Verilog for the CPLD last night and as I finished it, I thought of a few other options that might be useful. I?ll look it at some more once I?ve done the simulation. TTFN - Guy From phil at ultimate.com Tue Mar 8 16:47:00 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 17:47:00 -0500 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <201603082247.u28Ml0ub026268@ultimate.com> CIRC is an MIT/ITS instruction; ISTR a flavor of "rotate" p From dab at froghouse.org Tue Mar 8 16:52:25 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 17:52:25 -0500 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: <201603082247.u28Ml0ub026268@ultimate.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <201603082247.u28Ml0ub026268@ultimate.com> Message-ID: <56DF57A9.2010203@froghouse.org> On 03/08/2016 05:47 PM, Phil Budne wrote: > CIRC is an MIT/ITS instruction; ISTR a flavor of "rotate" It's a double-word rotate like ROTC except the two registers rotate in opposite directions. The instruction CIRC AC, 36. will swap AC and AC+1 and reverse both of their bit orders. From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Mar 8 17:21:51 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:21:51 +0000 (WET) Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 06 Mar 2016 10:26:19 -0800" Message-ID: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> > > I want to get raw images of the system's drives off the machine and onto my > modern systems. I can think of several approaches, and still more approaches > have already been suggested in that VCF thread. I have a number of questions, > and I'm also keeping my eyes open for hardware that might help me out. I'm not > presently talking to eBay, so that limits my options. > > First of all, if I manage to get TCP/IP networking up and running today, is > there some way under VMS for me to dump raw disk blocks over the network to > one of my UNIX-like systems? Alternately, if I manage to cobble together a > Linux box running an older DECNET-aware distribution and bring up DECNET on > the VAX, would that give me a way to dump raw disk blocks to a file on it > across the network? I'm still quite clumsy under VMS. One of these > network-based approaches seem like the only options that I would have any > chance of achieving today, assuming that the networking hardware on my 11/730 > is even in working order. > Savesets produced using VMS BACKUP are the ideal way to archive your VMS system. They will save everything you need in a format which can be restored onto any disk big enough to hold the data, selectively if necessary, while dealing with any errors on the input or output media. BACKUP can be run standalone or under VMS. If you get TCP/IP networking like Multinet (ie not like CMUIP) running, you should be able to use FTP, rcp or maybe even TFTP to move a VMS BACKUP saveset to another system. The snag is you need enough scratch space to create the saveset on the 11/730 before you transfer it. > > I don't think I have the patience to dump an R80 drive across an async serial > port, but if I did have the patience, is there some way to accomplish this > under a stock VMS 5.2/7.3 installation? Ditto for the RL02 and 9-track tapes. > C-Kermit for VMS might be able to do this - I can't recall. If you mount /foreign your non-system disk, it should be accessible at a logical block level instead of at a file level. VMS BACKUP won't like this but COPY should just copy logical blocks from the foreign mounted device. This probably isn't very useful to you but rcp or FTP PUT might also similarly cope with a foreign mounted devices and this may be another way of generating a raw dump of the device, provided there are no errors on it. (There may be issues detecting the size of the device and the operation may end with an error when no more blocks can be read. If whatever software you use doesn't try to discard it's output on encountering an error, all should be well.) However, you can't mount your system disk /foreign. Another way would be to write some code (VAX MACRO assembly / C / FORTRAN / BASIC or whatever compiler you have to use VMS system services like SYS$ASSIGN and SYS$QIO to read logical blocks from the disks and do something sensible when errors are encountered. This might involve a steep learning curve and the results will probably not be as well optimised to the task as VMS BACKUP. It should be possible to find some sample code to do something like this. > > * It was suggested that I might be able to cluster the 11/730 with a MicroVAX, > and then transfer data onto some SCSI device on the MicroVAX such as a > SCSI2SD. I think I'd need to find a fairly turnkey MicroVAX, though, to > avoid a bring-up problem that's even bigger than the data transfer problem > I'm trying to solve. > Clustering is pretty simple when you know how but if you don't want to get into configuring a cluster, a DECnet connected system or emulated system would probably be the way to go. Configuring DECnet on VMS can be done very easily with surprisingly little understanding of what is going on and is less invasive than configuring a cluster. On VMS, any file, including a BACKUP saveset can be specified as being located on a remote DECnet node, so it is possible to run BACKUP on your 11/730 and have the output saveset situated on a different VAX / Alpha / Itanium / emulated system running VMS or on a unix or other system capable of running DECnet well, (ultrix?), even a PC/Macintosh running DOS/Windows/Macos and DEC Pathworks. If your 11/730 is already configured to be a cluster member (if it says something like "Waiting to form or join a VAXcluster" on the console at boot time and then pauses for while before continuing) then you probably don't have to do anything further to it to make it function as part of a cluster. The only experimentation required would be on the additional cluster member, which could be an emulated system using simh for example if you don't have any other suitable hardware available. Once you are clustered, you can access disks on a remote cluster node as if they were local. Clustering with an emulated system would be especially suitable for producing raw block copies of the disks on the 11/730 on the filesystem of the system hosting the emulation. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From radioengr at gmail.com Tue Mar 8 23:19:29 2016 From: radioengr at gmail.com (Rob Doyle) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 22:19:29 -0700 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56DFB261.7070306@gmail.com> On 3/8/2016 1:35 PM, devin davison wrote: > I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a while back. A > buddy of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy > microfiche scanner, I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is > scratched pretty bad, does anyone else around here have this set, so > that i can recover the full page set? > > --Devin I have the DEC VMS 4.1 source code microfiche set with no way to scan it. It looks to be in very good condition. How good of a friend is he? Rob. From nf6x at nf6x.net Wed Mar 9 01:02:46 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Tue, 8 Mar 2016 23:02:46 -0800 Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? In-Reply-To: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <621142BD-A2A6-4202-8A6D-86FA8BC0FA03@nf6x.net> > On Mar 8, 2016, at 15:21, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > If you get TCP/IP networking like Multinet (ie not like CMUIP) running, you > should be able to use FTP, rcp or maybe even TFTP to move a VMS BACKUP saveset > to another system. The snag is you need enough scratch space to create the > saveset on the 11/730 before you transfer it. Well, there's the problem: I don't have scratch space, since all of the hard drives are precisely what I want to image. > C-Kermit for VMS might be able to do this - I can't recall. Getting it onto the machine in the first place might be a challenge! > > If you mount /foreign your non-system disk, it should be accessible at a logical > block level instead of at a file level. VMS BACKUP won't like this but COPY > should just copy logical blocks from the foreign mounted device. This probably > isn't very useful to you but rcp or FTP PUT might also similarly cope with a > foreign mounted devices and this may be another way of generating a raw dump > of the device, provided there are no errors on it. (There may be issues > detecting the size of the device and the operation may end with an error when > no more blocks can be read. If whatever software you use doesn't try to > discard it's output on encountering an error, all should be well.) However, > you can't mount your system disk /foreign. I can boot either 7.3 from the R80 fixed drive, or 5.2 from an RL02 pack. So in theory, I should be able to boot from each of them to image the other. There might be TCP/IP support on the 7.3 installation, but I doubt there's any TCP/IP support on the 5.2. I hope that the DECNET support is there on both installations for the ethernet card. I set up a VM on my Mac running Ubuntu with DECNET support installed. Despite being orphaned several years ago, it still seems to run. So I think that trying to bring up DECNET on the VAX might give me options. I was thinking that if nothing else, if I can log into the VAX remotely via DECNET and log the terminal output, then maybe I could just DUMP a foreign-mounted volume and then write some throw-away program to transmogrify the hex dump into a block-level image. It would be slow, but I hope it would at least be quite a bit faster than dumping over an async serial port. If I can write a file from the VAX to that Ubuntu VM via DECNET, then maybe I can just COPY a foreign-mounted volume to a file on the VM. I don't know what capabilities the Linux DECNET support gives me yet, but if I can do this then that should be a good option. I wonder if I can image tapes that way, too? > > Another way would be to write some code (VAX MACRO assembly / C / FORTRAN / > BASIC or whatever compiler you have to use VMS system services like SYS$ASSIGN > and SYS$QIO to read logical blocks from the disks and do something sensible > when errors are encountered. This might involve a steep learning curve and the > results will probably not be as well optimised to the task as VMS BACKUP. It > should be possible to find some sample code to do something like this. I hope I don't have to go to that much effort, particularly since I don't know if there are any language compilers/assemblers on the system, and I want to image the drives before I monkey around with the system much. > Clustering is pretty simple when you know how but if you don't want to get into > configuring a cluster, a DECnet connected system or emulated system would > probably be the way to go. Configuring DECnet on VMS can be done very easily > with surprisingly little understanding of what is going on and is less invasive > than configuring a cluster. You had me at "surprisingly little understanding of what is going on"! This sounds like the thing for me to try next. > On VMS, any file, including a BACKUP saveset can be specified as being located > on a remote DECnet node, so it is possible to run BACKUP on your 11/730 and have > the output saveset situated on a different VAX / Alpha / Itanium / emulated > system running VMS or on a unix or other system capable of running DECnet well, > (ultrix?), even a PC/Macintosh running DOS/Windows/Macos and DEC Pathworks. That sounds very promising! > If your 11/730 is already configured to be a cluster member (if it says > something like "Waiting to form or join a VAXcluster" on the console at boot > time and then pauses for while before continuing) then you probably don't have > to do anything further to it to make it function as part of a cluster. The > only experimentation required would be on the additional cluster member, which > could be an emulated system using simh for example if you don't have any other > suitable hardware available. Once you are clustered, you can access disks on > a remote cluster node as if they were local. Clustering with an emulated > system would be especially suitable for producing raw block copies of the > disks on the 11/730 on the filesystem of the system hosting the emulation. Hmm, I don't remember whether it output any messages like that, and I don't recall where the console printouts are from my successful boots of the system. I'll look for this next time I bring up the system. Thanks for all of the suggestions! I still have a lot of learning curve to climb in the VMS world. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 9 02:15:22 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 00:15:22 -0800 Subject: Tweaked card cage Message-ID: <56DFDB9A.8060209@jwsss.com> I've got a PDP8/A chassis which has a card cage that has been tweaked off in the front just a hair. Enough that you can't get the cards in by an interference amount of clearance. Anyone have any idea on how they handled this? I'm thinking of using some blocking and then a 36 or 48" pipe clamp to apply diagonal persuasion to get it back in true. The rear of the box is not impacted. In the body shop trade this is called "diamond" and usually gets your car totaled if your frame has that damage term applied to the chassis. I don't see any other damage other than this, no chip damage or cracking to the back plane, which is of course brittle. The rear dimension of the chassis is good, and I can't see what caused this. Could have been a drop, or could have been under too many layers of crap and was tweaked. Other clever ways to apply very gentle but forceful pressure to true up the cabinet is appreciated. Also how much to go past square to account for the "spring" back of the steel once the force is removed would be nice too. Thanks Jim From useddec at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 03:28:19 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 03:28:19 -0600 Subject: Tweaked card cage In-Reply-To: <56DFDB9A.8060209@jwsss.com> References: <56DFDB9A.8060209@jwsss.com> Message-ID: Hi Jim, Could you pet a small hydrolic jack inside and put 2 x 4s on the straight with the jack on them and slowly push the opposite side out? Paul On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:15 AM, jwsmobile wrote: > I've got a PDP8/A chassis which has a card cage that has been tweaked off > in the front just a hair. Enough that you can't get the cards in by an > interference amount of clearance. > > Anyone have any idea on how they handled this? I'm thinking of using some > blocking and then a 36 or 48" pipe clamp to apply diagonal persuasion to > get it back in true. > > The rear of the box is not impacted. > > In the body shop trade this is called "diamond" and usually gets your car > totaled if your frame has that damage term applied to the chassis. > > I don't see any other damage other than this, no chip damage or cracking > to the back plane, which is of course brittle. The rear dimension of the > chassis is good, and I can't see what caused this. Could have been a drop, > or could have been under too many layers of crap and was tweaked. > > Other clever ways to apply very gentle but forceful pressure to true up > the cabinet is appreciated. Also how much to go past square to account for > the "spring" back of the steel once the force is removed would be nice too. > > Thanks > Jim > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 9 03:42:49 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 09:42:49 +0000 (WET) Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 08 Mar 2016 15:35:01 -0500" Message-ID: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> > > I purchased a DEC VMS 4.4 source code microfiche set a while back. A buddy > of mine works at a local library where there is a fancy microfiche scanner, > I'm planning to scan it all. Some of the film is scratched pretty bad, does > anyone else around here have this set, so that i can recover the full page > set? > I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual source code), at least that's what I have. Some people seem to try to pass these listings off as actual source code in order to command a higher price for them on ebay and the like. I'm not sure but I don't think DEC made the actual source code available, at least not for a price that ordinary customers could afford. Source listings for some (later?) versions are available on CD which is much easier to deal with than microfiche. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 9 05:31:46 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 11:31:46 +0000 Subject: Tweaked card cage In-Reply-To: <56DFDB9A.8060209@jwsss.com> References: <56DFDB9A.8060209@jwsss.com> Message-ID: > Anyone have any idea on how they handled this? I'm thinking of using > some blocking and then a 36 or 48" pipe clamp to apply diagonal > persuasion to get it back in true. In general screw-type mechanisms are good for providing controllable force for jobs like this. I've used a screw-operated (not hydraulic) car jack to straighten things in the past. I assume you've tried using hand pressure (perhaps with a couple of friends helping you). These boxes are not as strong as they seem sometimes. They were designed to be installed in the rack cabinet which provides extra support. -tony From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 05:48:37 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 12:48:37 +0100 Subject: Available: Q1 Corporation Q1 Lite Message-ID: Hello! We are considering (haven't decided 100% yet) to not keep the Q1 Lite system we have. Here are some pictures: https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1d2pRTVM5TmM0UEU&usp=sharing It is a 8080 system with PL/1 built into to ROMs. Vintage 1975-76.It has a plasma screen and comes with an orange desk with built in quad floppy drive and also a daisy wheel printer. There are also two big hard drives and a hard drive controller. Is there interest? Trade for something interesting. /Mattis From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 07:33:34 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 08:33:34 -0500 Subject: Available: Q1 Corporation Q1 Lite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks interesting. Where are you located? Todd Killingsworth On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Hello! > > We are considering (haven't decided 100% yet) to not keep the Q1 Lite > system we have. > > Here are some pictures: > > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1d2pRTVM5TmM0UEU&usp=sharing > > It is a 8080 system with PL/1 built into to ROMs. Vintage 1975-76.It has a > plasma screen and comes with an orange desk with built in quad floppy drive > and also a daisy wheel printer. > > There are also two big hard drives and a hard drive controller. > > Is there interest? Trade for something interesting. > > /Mattis > From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 07:43:31 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:43:31 +0100 Subject: Available: Q1 Corporation Q1 Lite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry. Should have mentioned that it is in Sweden. /Mattis 2016-03-09 14:33 GMT+01:00 Todd Killingsworth : > Looks interesting. Where are you located? > > Todd Killingsworth > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > Hello! > > > > We are considering (haven't decided 100% yet) to not keep the Q1 Lite > > system we have. > > > > Here are some pictures: > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1d2pRTVM5TmM0UEU&usp=sharing > > > > It is a 8080 system with PL/1 built into to ROMs. Vintage 1975-76.It has > a > > plasma screen and comes with an orange desk with built in quad floppy > drive > > and also a daisy wheel printer. > > > > There are also two big hard drives and a hard drive controller. > > > > Is there interest? Trade for something interesting. > > > > /Mattis > > > From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 9 09:17:48 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:17:48 -0500 (EST) Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the > assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual > source code), at least that's what I have. [...] For many purposes, of course, that's just as good, maybe even better. If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:28:53 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:28:53 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers Message-ID: Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented, but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space 1974-77. I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in industrial micro-computing. If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to the thread. http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From killingsworth.todd at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 09:36:20 2016 From: killingsworth.todd at gmail.com (Todd Killingsworth) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:36:20 -0500 Subject: Available: Q1 Corporation Q1 Lite In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Ah - of course. I'm in the US. Someone should give it a good home though. Todd Killingsworth On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:43 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > Sorry. Should have mentioned that it is in Sweden. > > /Mattis > > 2016-03-09 14:33 GMT+01:00 Todd Killingsworth < > killingsworth.todd at gmail.com> > : > > > Looks interesting. Where are you located? > > > > Todd Killingsworth > > > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:48 AM, Mattis Lind > wrote: > > > > > Hello! > > > > > > We are considering (haven't decided 100% yet) to not keep the Q1 Lite > > > system we have. > > > > > > Here are some pictures: > > > > > > > > > > > > https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B-rp4vyPPYu1d2pRTVM5TmM0UEU&usp=sharing > > > > > > It is a 8080 system with PL/1 built into to ROMs. Vintage 1975-76.It > has > > a > > > plasma screen and comes with an orange desk with built in quad floppy > > drive > > > and also a daisy wheel printer. > > > > > > There are also two big hard drives and a hard drive controller. > > > > > > Is there interest? Trade for something interesting. > > > > > > /Mattis > > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 9 10:49:57 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 10:49:57 -0600 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial > microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented, > but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space > 1974-77. > > I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of > microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a > related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans > of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in > industrial micro-computing. > > If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to > the thread. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 > Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300 Industrial Processor. They sold a lot of them in their 7320 (and 7340, 7360) CNC machine tool controls. (I have one here.) See : http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters, DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, and was made around 1978. Jon From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 9 11:42:46 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 17:42:46 +0000 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> On 09/03/16 15:17, Mouse wrote: >> I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the >> assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual >> source code), at least that's what I have. [...] > For many purposes, of course, that's just as good, maybe even better. > > If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need > implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway. The listing format is 132 chars wide, so you do sometimes lose useful stuff. -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 9 11:48:48 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 17:48:48 +0000 Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? In-Reply-To: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56E06200.5010400@ntlworld.com> On 08/03/16 23:21, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> Savesets produced using VMS BACKUP are the ideal way to archive your VMS system. >> They will save everything you need in a format which can be restored onto any >> disk big enough to hold the data, selectively if necessary, while dealing with >> any errors on the input or output media. BACKUP can be run standalone or under >> VMS. Ideally you would use standalone backup. With most systems you would backup to tape or to another disk. Or you would boot into a cluster (i.e. boot off something other than your system disk) and backup that way. I doubt that either of those is viable on a VAX-11/730. You can't easily hook up a second disk and I'm almost certain that a network boot is not possible. I don't think that you could connect a VAX-11/730 to a CI-cluster, and even if you could, you are not likely to have the kit available. If you have a tape drive, you could use standalone backup to backup to tape and then shift that to another system (or SIMH) and preserve the saveset that way. I remember having the same issue as a system manager on a VAX-11/750. There was no network boot, so the only option was to use SABKP and a spare disk. Antonio From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Mar 9 12:03:10 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 13:03:10 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> ""The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked in no longer exist."" These cameras you speak of were wonderful.... I rode a Robetson for part of a summer making halftones and line shots for a print shop in AZ here. In my off time I was allowed to shoot all the old docs and old Eastman Kodak camera catalogs I wanted to and print them up as posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat field lens I had ever used!! Back to computer panels.... Rod thanks for doing the work to create these! ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/2/2016 3:32:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: Hi Guys Having got 8/e (A & B) plus 8/f and 8/m into production its time I made a few comments. The aim has always been to reproduce the original panels using the process DEC used all those years ago. Needless to say we had to go through the learning curve with only photographs, scans and one 8/m original panel to go on. In the interests of origiality I have kept what we used call 'features' as found in the documentation and the sample we had. I'm trying to reproduce the original, not produce an improved or fixed version. The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: 1. The original versions would have been drawn twice full size by hand on matt paper in indian ink. One sheet per colo(u)r would have been requred. They would then have used a process camera to reduce to one to one positive masters on clear acetate film. The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked in no longer exist. I used to do just that in the early '70's but whats weird is where I worked is less than 50 yards from the silk screen studio doing the work now. Now I use Inkscape and its layers to do the same thing. The screeners have an Epson printer the size of a piano to print my layers in black onto clear film. After that the process is the same as it was. They take a fine meshed cloth streched onto a frame. Its coated (by hand) with a photo sensitive emulsion, when dry it gets exposed through the master using a UV light source. The the parts proteced by black on the master are water soluable and get washed out and hence let the ink through. So one screen per layer is required 2. DEC would have printed the images first and routed or milled the holes using some kind jig later. As long as the hole stayed inside the white line that was deemed to be OK. We drill (laser cut) first and screen afterwards. Regards Rod From js at cimmeri.com Wed Mar 9 12:36:47 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 13:36:47 -0500 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> Message-ID: <56E06D3F.7090109@cimmeri.com> On 3/9/2016 1:03 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 3/2/2016 3:32:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: > > ... > > The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: Rod, very interesting! Do you have a description of the full process? Or what is the process after the screens are made? Thank you- -John From ian.finder at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 12:54:26 2016 From: ian.finder at gmail.com (Ian Finder) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:54:26 -0800 Subject: OpenBSD drops support for VAX Message-ID: A sad day indeed... :( https://twitter.com/MiodVallat/status/707636166112182272 -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.finder at gmail.com From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 12:54:59 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 10:54:59 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial > microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing > oriented, but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the > industrial space Do you count that 1-bit MC14500 dingus as a microprocessor? :) PLCs have used all sorts of microprocessors from 8080 to the latest bleeding edge stuff. If you're doing archeology of MPUs, the PLC market is a great place to start as the iron these things were attached to (anying from PCB drills, EDM setups, turret lathes, etc.) are still running. I recall an ex-in-law who bought himself an IMSAI 8080 and used it to run his vacuum forming setup. The NSC IMP16 was used in Sun Engine Analyzers, which must count as an early application. I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for change. --Chuck From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 9 13:30:43 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:30:43 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> Message-ID: <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> > On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > ... > I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for change. I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled by a PDP-9. paul From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:36:50 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:36:50 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > ... > > I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find > the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for > change. > > I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled > by a PDP-9. > > paul > > > Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc.. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:37:47 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:37:47 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:36 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >> >> > On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > ... >> > I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find >> the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for >> change. >> >> I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled >> by a PDP-9. >> >> paul >> >> >> > Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller > tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the > Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for > business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc.. > > > > ... and to that end some of the first micros made for business probably survived for a long time after similar CPUs were long gone form the home. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 9 13:42:44 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:42:44 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> Message-ID: <58325ADA-516E-463C-9CA2-9B93FBEA4CDA@comcast.net> > On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial >> microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing >> oriented, but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the >> industrial space > > Do you count that 1-bit MC14500 dingus as a microprocessor? :) Not quite industrial, but an interesting early microcontroller application I remember is from around 1977, a music synthesizer keyboard (possibly the first one that was sensitive to how hard you hit the keys) using an RCA 1802 microcontroller. It acted as a peripheral to an 8080 based "host" -- a PLATO terminal with a waveform synthesizer attached, along with that keyboard. paul From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Mar 9 11:30:44 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 09:30:44 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm slowly putting together a Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts, software, etc ?). In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power went away ? There's a few sites with URL's on early controllers, but I don't have any written down Google Allen Bradly 1770,1771,1772,1773,1774 On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 8:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial >> microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented, >> but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space >> 1974-77. >> >> I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of >> microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to >> a >> related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans >> of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in >> industrial micro-computing. >> >> If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to >> the thread. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 >> >> Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300 Industrial > Processor. They sold a lot of them in their 7320 (and 7340, 7360) CNC > machine tool controls. (I have one here.) See : > http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg > > The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of the > 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to connect a > wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters, DACs, digital > inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, and was made around > 1978. > > Jon > > From roland.schregle at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 12:26:51 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 19:26:51 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 Message-ID: Dear all, I have two VAXen that I'd like to resurrect simply for the sake of playing around with The Real Thing[tm] running VMS. Note that I'm completely new to VMS and DEC hardware -- hence the interest! Box #1 is a VAX4000 model 400 with no working CPU (KA-675) and 2x 32Mb RAM, an RF72 (wiped), plus a KZQSA QBUS controller. PSU is good, fans squeal on startup but run silently once spun up. Have VMS installation media in CD. I have two KA-675s for this beast: Board #1 (originally installed) has a failed B-cache (console reports SUBTEST_35_12, DE_B_Cache_diag_mode.LIS) and crashes with an asynchronous write memory failure when booting VMS from CD. Board #2 (DOA from eBay but fully refunded) has a dead DSSI bus 0 controller and crashes on SHOW DEV; I assume that's a write-off. Any chance of identifying the flaky B-cache SRAM on board #1 and replacing it? Alternatively, anyone out there have a KA-675 for sale? Box #2 is a VAXstation 3200 with TK50, and an RD54. PSU and fans ok (and very quiet), ditto CPU. The RD54 is unformatted; I understand this can only be formatted in the field with a VS2000 or with some obscure field diagnostics. There's no SCSI controller, so I can't install from CD. I haven't been able to track down VMS installation media on TK50, and I doubt they'd still be readable anyway. On top of that I have no idea what condition the drive is in, as I have no blank tapes to test with. I've found tape images online but see no way to dump these to TK50 (assuming the drive is ok), unless I get a TZ30. What are my options and chances of success for getting either of these boxes up and running with VMS? A KA-675 and TZ30 can be obtained from resellers, but I hesitate to invest several hundred in something this old purely for the occasional mucking about. I have also considered selling the units (or parts thereof) if nothing gives. Any ideas much appreciated, --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 9 13:29:56 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:29:56 -0000 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dr. > Roland Schregle > Sent: 09 March 2016 18:27 > To: ClassicCmp Tech > Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 > > Dear all, > > I have two VAXen that I'd like to resurrect simply for the sake of playing > around with The Real Thing[tm] running VMS. Note that I'm completely new > to VMS and DEC hardware -- hence the interest! > > Box #1 is a VAX4000 model 400 with no working CPU (KA-675) and 2x 32Mb > RAM, an RF72 (wiped), plus a KZQSA QBUS controller. PSU is good, fans > squeal on startup but run silently once spun up. Have VMS installation media > in CD. > > I have two KA-675s for this beast: Board #1 (originally installed) has a failed B- > cache (console reports SUBTEST_35_12, DE_B_Cache_diag_mode.LIS) and > crashes with an asynchronous write memory failure when booting VMS from > CD. Board #2 (DOA from eBay but fully refunded) has a dead DSSI bus 0 > controller and crashes on SHOW DEV; I assume that's a write-off. Any chance > of identifying the flaky B-cache SRAM on board #1 and replacing it? > Alternatively, anyone out there have a KA-675 for sale? > > Box #2 is a VAXstation 3200 with TK50, and an RD54. PSU and fans ok (and > very quiet), ditto CPU. The RD54 is unformatted; I understand this can only > be formatted in the field with a VS2000 or with some obscure field > diagnostics. There's no SCSI controller, so I can't install from CD. I haven't > been able to track down VMS installation media on TK50, and I doubt they'd > still be readable anyway. On top of that I have no idea what condition the > drive is in, as I have no blank tapes to test with. I've found tape images online > but see no way to dump these to TK50 (assuming the drive is ok), unless I get > a TZ30. > > What are my options and chances of success for getting either of these > boxes up and running with VMS? A KA-675 and TZ30 can be obtained from > resellers, but I hesitate to invest several hundred in something this old purely > for the occasional mucking about. I have also considered selling the units (or > parts thereof) if nothing gives. > > Any ideas much appreciated, > You could run the 3200 by netbooting it from a SIMH instance of VMS. If the RD54 was formatted (and working!) then you could transfer VMS onto the disk from the boot node. To format the RD54 you would need to find a 2000 though, or at least borrow one. You should tell the list where you live as there might be someone close by who could help out. It might be though that the RD54 is formatted, worth trying once you netboot. As for the KA675, I don't know really, I suspect you would be into surface mount work, but with two boards you might be able to swap bits around to get a working board. Perhaps if you got a KFQSA or a KZQSA you could get this to work? Regards Rob From cramcram at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 13:51:32 2016 From: cramcram at gmail.com (Marc Howard) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 11:51:32 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... Message-ID: Has anyone ever reproduced the card guides used in the 8/A chassis? I assume these are identical to those used in PDP-11s as well. My are beyond brittle. Thanks, Marc From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 14:20:26 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 21:20:26 +0100 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Marc Howard Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only Subject: Speaking of card cages... Has anyone ever reproduced the card guides used in the 8/A chassis? I assume these are identical to those used in PDP-11s as well. My are beyond brittle. Thanks, Marc --------- Marc, do you have pictures? I googled but get different guides. Are they small, like 5mm, and colored maroon or white? Those are also used in the 11/44 box and expansion boxes, I guess every BA11-K. The BA11-L has white hard"plastic" blocks some 2" long and has slits for 4 boards. So, a picture or description would be helpful. - Henk, PA8PDP From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 14:44:16 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:44:16 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: I do not know much at all about what it would take to compile this into a working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library and get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up online. If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone can spare that would be great, I was unaware any newer versions of the source code were distributed on newer formats such as CD. I did buy the 4.4 source on microfiche though, and am expecting to get some more DEC schematics on microfiche as well, so i want to get familiar with scanning things with the microfiche scanner at the library. In response to 'Rob Doyle' - Once i get things figured out with the microfiche scanner, (i will be doing everything myself) I can get back to you and look into scanning your set once i know how to work the scanner better. Everything will be done by myself. The microfiche reader is in the back of the library, usually for internal library use only by the genealogy department, My friend is simply getting me access to the machine, i will be doing all the scanning work and handling of materials myself. My slides seem to be pretty scratched up, if they are beyond help, ill send you an email and look into reading your 4.1 source set. --Devin On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 12:42 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 09/03/16 15:17, Mouse wrote: > >> I think this is likely to be source listings (ie the >>> assembler/compiler output after assembling/compiling the actual >>> source code), at least that's what I have. [...] >>> >> For many purposes, of course, that's just as good, maybe even better. >> >> If you really want to rebuild the system yourself, you'll need >> implementations of a whole pile of different languages anyway. >> > > The listing format is 132 chars wide, so you do sometimes lose useful > stuff. > > -- > Antonio Carlini > arcarlini at iee.org > > From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 9 14:49:28 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 12:49:28 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 2016-Mar-09, at 7:28 AM, william degnan wrote: > Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial > microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented, > but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space > 1974-77. > Yes, I'd agree, an overlooked area of tech. development. Not limited to industrial micros, I always have my eye out for early (70s period) embedded / end-use / pre-home-computer applications of microprocs. Only managed to find a couple pieces of equipment to date. It's the sort of stuff that get's scrapped as it's not recognised or considered for what's inside. > I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of > microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a > related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans > of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in > industrial micro-computing. > > If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to > the thread. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 Looks like a Fairchild F on the two ceramic LSI chips in the photo of the controller board there. I don't recall Fairchild as a 2nd source for the 8080 but I'm not sure. Doesn't look to be the typical amount of support circuitry for an 8080 system on that board. Fairchild F8 system could be a possibility. From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 16:14:35 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:14:35 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56E0A04B.7030107@sydex.com> On 03/09/2016 11:36 AM, william degnan wrote: > Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for > smaller tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly > the last of the Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize > applications for business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, > etc.. I still deal with PLCs that are running CP/M-86 as well as CP/M 68K. Not that long ago, I helped out with a CNC punch that ran CP/M 2.2. And there are still scads of embroidery machines running crufty OSes. Basically, the issue is that the iron being controlled is very rugged, parts are readily available and the electronics were built to last. Here's a Mitsubishi DWC-90H EDM. Some of these guys still run from cassette tape, though most have been upgraded to floppy or emulator. http://bit.ly/220CbKX These are systems that do work day-in and day-out even today after 30-40 years. In the embedded world, it's even more pervasive. A couple of years back, I retired a Toshiba microwave oven that used a TMS1000 MCU. It still worked, but was unneeded. How's that for early microprocessor use? --Chuck From Commodor64Killer at mail.com Wed Mar 9 15:45:45 2016 From: Commodor64Killer at mail.com (Commodore64Killer) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 16:45:45 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56E09989.8090800@mail.com> On 03/09/2016 11:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/09/2016 09:28 AM, william degnan wrote: >> Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial >> microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing >> oriented, >> but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial >> space >> 1974-77. >> >> I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of >> microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with >> links to a >> related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and >> scans >> of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in >> industrial micro-computing. >> >> If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will >> add to >> the thread. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 >> > Allen-Bradley had a 16-bit mini they called the 7300 Industrial > Processor. They sold a lot of them in their 7320 (and 7340, 7360) CNC > machine tool controls. (I have one here.) See : > http://pico-systems.com/images/S_AB7320D.jpg > > The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of the > 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to > connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters, > DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, > and was made around 1978. > > Jon > I used to work at a glass plant back in the late 90's like 98-99 and they used an Apple II to cut out as many peaces and or shapes out of 4X8 piece of glass it was a cool program they would just tell the Apple II, how many peaces they needed what shapes oval, Square, Rectangle ETC. . . it would calculate it out and cut as much of the order it could with each slab of glass and add as many that could mathematically fit in the 8X4 sheet! From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 9 17:08:33 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:08:33 -0600 Subject: Sequoia Computer Systems? Message-ID: <000801d17a58$9a7a44b0$cf6ece10$@classiccmp.org> Anyone have any pictures, datasheets, or other ephemera related to Sequoia Systems line of fault tolerant systems? This is unrelated to the "IBM Sequoia". The Sequoia computers I'm referring to were around roughly '86+ish maybe and were fairly large minicomputers. Their claim to fame was being "massively fault tolerant". I am not sure, but Ian Sandler may have worked there on that design before heading to General Automation perhaps, not sure I have my history right. What I do recall for sure, is I worked on a lot of programming on the Sequoia systems (the ones I used ran Pick or one of the MVRDBMS's) at Eagle Snacks (back when that was part of the Anheuser-Busch family). On a whim I decided to google and while I can find a few white papers on the Sequoia Fault Tolerance design, I see no marketing brochures, datasheets, pictures, etc. I do recall a story from back when I worked there. the head of eagle snacks was called into the office of the VP of AB for a dressing down, because all the other departments submitted downtime reports to him on their systems and Eagle Snacks (running on the Sequoia) did not submit any reports for over a year. When asked why he wasn't submitting downtime reports the eagle snacks guy replied "because we haven't had any". The VP said - yes, but I see here maintenance logs that you had cpu boards failed and replaced, memory boards failed and replaced, "etc etc". and the ES guy said "Right. No downtime". Anyone remember these systems? Best, J From steven at malikoff.com Wed Mar 9 17:13:00 2016 From: steven at malikoff.com (steven at malikoff.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:13:00 +1000 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ---------------------------- Original Message ---------------------------- Subject: Re: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers From: "Brent Hilpert" Date: Thu, March 10, 2016 6:49 am To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" -------------------------------------------------------------------------- > On 2016-Mar-09, at 7:28 AM, william degnan wrote: >> Not a lot is said about early use of microprocessors in industrial >> microcomputers. Everything you read about is so home computing oriented, >> but I believe actual sales would have been greater in the industrial space >> 1974-77. >> > > Yes, I'd agree, an overlooked area of tech. development. > Not limited to industrial micros, I always have my eye out for early (70s period) embedded / end-use / pre-home-computer applications of microprocs. > Only managed to find a couple pieces of equipment to date. It's the sort of stuff that get's scrapped as it's not recognised or considered for what's inside. > > >> I compiled a quick thread on my site about the earliest use of >> microprocessors in industrial microcomputers on my web site with links to a >> related article from EDN Microprocessor Design Series Volume II and scans >> of Process Computer Systems product brochures. PCS was a pioneer in >> industrial micro-computing. >> >> If anyone has info to share / correct please let me know and I will add to >> the thread. >> >> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=631 > > Looks like a Fairchild F on the two ceramic LSI chips in the photo of the controller board there. > I don't recall Fairchild as a 2nd source for the 8080 but I'm not sure. > Doesn't look to be the typical amount of support circuitry for an 8080 system on that board. > Fairchild F8 system could be a possibility. I'd go with Brent's suggestion too. The earlier F8 (3850 CPU) was a originally a three chip system, on the board shown it could possibly be a 3850 CPU at right, the 3851 PSU (Program Strage Unit, it held the Program Counter, some I/O ports and usually a 1k monitor) at bottom and the top one could conceivably be a 3853 SMI (Static Memory Interface). My Fairchild/Mostek F8 Development Kit board is identical to the one shown on the F8 page https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairchild_F8 except it has the exact opposite packaging to mine, ie the 3851 (top in photo) is ceramic and my 3853 (lower left) and 3850 (lower right) are plastic. There doesn't look to be enough support logic for the 3855 Dynamic Memory Interface. But, this is all a guess :) The F8 was used in traffic light controllers, washing machines (AFAIK) and surely a bunch of other industrial applications. Steve. From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 9 17:14:22 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:14:22 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> Message-ID: <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Thanks,, Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune even then, Rod On 09/03/2016 18:03, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > ""The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked > in no longer exist."" > > These cameras you speak of were wonderful.... I rode a Robetson for > part of a summer making halftones and line shots for a print shop in AZ > here. In my off time I was allowed to shoot all the old docs and old > Eastman Kodak camera catalogs I wanted to and print them up as > posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat field lens > I had ever used!! > > > Back to computer panels.... Rod thanks for doing the work to create > these! > > > ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > In a message dated 3/2/2016 3:32:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: > > Hi Guys > Having got 8/e (A & B) plus 8/f and 8/m into > production its time I made a few comments. > > The aim has always been to reproduce the original panels using the > process DEC used all those years ago. > Needless to say we had to go through the learning curve with only > photographs, scans and one 8/m original > panel to go on. > > In the interests of origiality I have kept what we used call 'features' > as found in the documentation and the sample we had. > I'm trying to reproduce the original, not produce an improved or fixed > version. > > The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: > > 1. The original versions would have been drawn twice full size by > hand on matt paper in indian ink. > One sheet per colo(u)r would have been requred. They would > then have used a process camera > to reduce to one to one positive masters on clear acetate film. > The cameras (they were huge) and the darkend rooms they worked > in no longer exist. > > I used to do just that in the early '70's but whats weird is > where I worked is less than 50 yards > from the silk screen studio doing the work now. > > Now I use Inkscape and its layers to do the same thing. The > screeners have an Epson printer > the size of a piano to print my layers in black onto clear > film. After that the process is the same as it was. > They take a fine meshed cloth streched onto a frame. Its > coated (by hand) with a photo sensitive > emulsion, when dry it gets exposed through the master using > a UV light source. > The the parts proteced by black on the master are water > soluable and get washed out and hence > let the ink through. So one screen per layer is required > > > 2. DEC would have printed the images first and routed or milled the > holes using some kind jig later. > As long as the hole stayed inside the white line that was > deemed to be OK. > We drill (laser cut) first and screen afterwards. > > Regards > Rod > > > > > > > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 9 17:35:54 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:35:54 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <56E06D3F.7090109@cimmeri.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E06D3F.7090109@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56E0B35A.70006@btinternet.com> On 09/03/2016 18:36, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > > On 3/9/2016 1:03 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> In a message dated 3/2/2016 3:32:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, >> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: >> >> ... >> >> The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: > > Rod, very interesting! Do you have a description of the full > process? Or what is the process after the screens are made? > > Thank you- > -John > Well after the screens are made Then to do the actual printing you need a very skilled hand screen printer with at least ten years experience. Getting five or six layers (some on the front and some on the back) to register (line up) is not for the amateur. My two girls are very good but even then we do not get 100% yeild. Regards Rod From dave at 661.org Wed Mar 9 18:14:02 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:14:02 +0000 (UTC) Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 8 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:53 PM > >> Specifically I'm trying to build and run this: > >> TITLE HACK >> SEARCH MONSYM >> >> HACK: SKIPA 4,[^D4] >> HACK0: SOJL 4,TRAILL >> SETZB 1,3 >> HACK1: TLNE 1,777777 >> JRST HACK0 >> MOVE 2,1 >> CIRC 2,-^D18 > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > ... > >> END HACK > >> When I do COMPILE, LOAD, and SAVE on it and run the executable, I get this: > >> $hack >> ?Illegal instruction 247100,,777756 at HACK1+3 >> ?Undefined operation code > > As well you should. There is no CIRC in the standard PDP-10 instruction set. > Opcode 247 is unassigned, so if someone defined CIRC locally (say, in an OPDEF, > although I don't see one here), the result you report would be precisely what > I would expect. > > Where did this code come from? From the presence of the LITES% JSYS I infer > that it has something to do with Bob Armstrong's panel. Perhaps you should > direct a query in his direction? SpareTimeGizmos.com, and all that. I got it from Jan deRie when I asked about it on a Youtube video[1] showing the Panda Display in action. I'm trying to get it compiled because I've made a new Panda Display board[2] that connects to a USB port instead of a parallel port. The new board works, but the lights don't light up as expected, so I need something that puts a recognizable pattern on the display. I'm doing this with Bob Armstrong's blessing, but I haven't asked him about this program yet. I'll post to the Spare Times Gizmos list now. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_LcQ5apODg [2] https://github.com/DavidGriffith/panda-display -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Wed Mar 9 18:36:47 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:36:47 -0500 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56E0C19F.9010206@compsys.to> >Paul Koning wrote: >>On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>... >>I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for change. >> >> > >I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled by a PDP-9. > For Ontario Power Generation (formerly Ontario Hydro), the Nuclear Power Generation station at Darlington (just East of Toronto) still uses the PDP-11 running RSX-11. A refurbishment is either in progress of will commence soon and that might change, but it is unlikely. It is easier to continue to use the original hardware and software than to completely revamp the system. In the past, only the servicing hardware tends to change. Jerome Fine From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 9 19:25:35 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:25:35 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: >> posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat >> field lens On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > Thanks,, > Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune even > then, Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. All out of my price range. From healyzh at aracnet.com Wed Mar 9 19:53:00 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 17:53:00 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <2A05EC30-827C-40A2-9ED1-579F9C9E6676@aracnet.com> > On Mar 9, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat field lens > On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Thanks,, >> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune even then, > > Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. > Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. > > For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. > And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. > All out of my price range. Personally I need a nice ASPH 28mm or 35mm Summicron. I have the original Nikkon 35mm f/2, one of the very first made, it?s been Ai?d, and it?s an AMAZING lens. The Goerz Dagor?s are actually pretty cheap at the moment, I?ve been thinking about them for my 8x10. I?m using a mixture of modern lenses on my 4x5. Somehow I don?t ever expect a digital 4x5 back to be affordable. I know one Photographer that has one, and it?s really only useable for reproduction work, in the studio. Keep in mind that digital backs that can cover 4x5 or larger are scanning backs. Have you considered adapting a scanner as one? I?ve seen in the past where folks have done that. Personally except for one project, I shoot B&W film when I?m shooting 4x5 or 8x10, I then process and print it myself. For the 8x10 (and hopefully eventually 11x14), I only shoot B&W, and only contact print. Zane From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 9 20:06:39 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:06:39 -0800 Subject: Sequoia Computer Systems? In-Reply-To: <000801d17a58$9a7a44b0$cf6ece10$@classiccmp.org> References: <000801d17a58$9a7a44b0$cf6ece10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56E0D6AF.2010204@jwsss.com> On 3/9/2016 3:08 PM, Jay West wrote: > Anyone have any pictures, datasheets, or other ephemera related to Sequoia > Systems line of fault tolerant systems? > > > I recall them and am looking for info about them. I'll post on the FB Pick group as I know there are several developers who did the implementation. I am trying to find out the system hardware they ran as a base to the system. I think a provider I am using may still use that hardware, but I could be wrong. Was the base system (Unix type) IRIX on there? The systems @ Software Tool and Die run that OS, and I'm not sure if they are Sequoia. Perhaps Sequel. Foggy memory, and nothing shows up in a quick search to settle it. FWIW uname -a shows up IRIX64 shell01 6.5 07201611 IP27 thanks Jim From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 9 20:20:56 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:20:56 -0600 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56E0DA08.2060500@pico-systems.com> On 03/09/2016 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm slowly putting together a > Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts, > software, etc ?). > > In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has > clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and > some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power > went away ? As far as I know, the 7300 never used core. No sign of anything like that in the book. They did have a big backup battery for the DRAM, I used a couple AH 12 V Gel Cell battery. The charger for the Gel Cell ran when the control power was off, so it was supposed to maintain the memory indefinitely - except the memory power switch had a dirty contact and would dump the memory every couple of weeks. Jon From rdawson16 at hotmail.com Wed Mar 9 20:36:34 2016 From: rdawson16 at hotmail.com (Randy Dawson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 02:36:34 +0000 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> , Message-ID: I had the 'opportunity' to take apart 80's era programmable logic controllers: Gould Modicon 584: AMD 2901 bitslice based TI 520, pm 550: TMS 9900 (no suprise here) TI 565: (Motorola 68000, after designers complained to mgmt, dont force us to use ti micros) Allen Bradley PLC2: AMD 2901, peripherals and comm modules KF etc z-80 I knew some of the designers, when asked why the 2901, well speed of course, and second that their own microcode instruction set was 'provable' and could be man rated on these processors. Randy ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of william degnan Sent: Wednesday, March 9, 2016 11:37 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:36 PM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 2:30 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > >> >> > On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >> > ... >> > I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll find >> the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval process for >> change. >> >> I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) controlled >> by a PDP-9. >> >> paul >> >> >> > Obviously different than the first microcomputers designed for smaller > tasks in an industrial setting, but I agree that certainly the last of the > Win 2000 systems are still churning away customize applications for > business purposes in the backrooms of shops, plants, etc.. > > > > ... and to that end some of the first micros made for business probably survived for a long time after similar CPUs were long gone form the home. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 20:43:24 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:43:24 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56E0DF4C.1040805@sydex.com> On 03/09/2016 08:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front panel of > the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that allowed you to > connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder counters, > DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used battery-backed DRAM, > and was made around 1978. Much of the old Mitsubishi CNC gear uses battery-backed RAM via a lead-acid storage battery "floated" on a supply. A tape or diskette drive is used for loading it with parameters and software. Once read, the floppy isn't used for regular operation. We occasionally get a call from some guy who's just unloaded a hunk of iron from the truck and realized that he doesn't have any software to run it. Mitsubishi is usually of little help, and only offers to make a heckuva deal on some new iron. Another place that I've seen microprocessors hiding is in pipe organs. I think the Ruffatti instrument at St. Mary's in San Francisco had, at one time, a bunch of 8086 MPUs (memory is very fuzzy). I recall talking to a fellow in town here who worked for John Brombaugh who was working on bringing the design of his organs into the 20th century. Again, more than 20 years ago and I haven't kept in touch. --Chuck From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 9 20:56:32 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 18:56:32 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E0DA08.2060500@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E0DA08.2060500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56E0E260.7010407@sydex.com> Early minicomputers were part of the electronics business itself. Witness the Fairchild Sentry ATE gear using the FST-1 minicomputer at around the time that Fairchild was rolling out its TTL and Macrologic lines. 24-bit more-or-less general-purpose. I believe I wrote about what I'd deduced about the thing before Al uploaded some valuable information on it. AFAIK, there's still a manufacturer in Israel still using one of the bed-of-nails Sentry test setups. --Chuck From phb.hfx at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 21:21:35 2016 From: phb.hfx at gmail.com (Paul Berger) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:21:35 -0400 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E0C19F.9010206@compsys.to> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E07183.3070608@sydex.com> <55431CF6-9688-4029-9E8B-472C9643981B@comcast.net> <56E0C19F.9010206@compsys.to> Message-ID: <56E0E83F.2020804@gmail.com> On 2016-03-09 8:36 PM, Jerome H. Fine wrote: > >Paul Koning wrote: > >>> On Mar 9, 2016, at 1:54 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: >>> ... >>> I suspect that the nuclear power industry is one place that you'll >>> find the oldest stuff, however, given the long regulatory approval >>> process for change. >>> >> >> I remember a nuclear reactor (research, not power generation) >> controlled by a PDP-9. >> > For Ontario Power Generation (formerly Ontario Hydro), the Nuclear > Power Generation > station at Darlington (just East of Toronto) still uses the PDP-11 > running RSX-11. A > refurbishment is either in progress of will commence soon and that > might change, but > it is unlikely. It is easier to continue to use the original hardware > and software than > to completely revamp the system. In the past, only the servicing > hardware tends to > change. > > Jerome Fine The Pickering Nuclear station ran on IBM 1800s and Bruce ran on PDP-8s. The Nanticoke Coal fired thermal plant also used 1800s. I recall in my early days at IBM they reconned a 1800 on our education center lab floor for Ontario Hydro. They self serviced all their systems and a friend who did a work term at Bruce was telling me they had a room full of PDP-8s for spare parts. Paul. From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Wed Mar 9 21:54:51 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:54:51 -0800 Subject: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <56E0B35A.70006@btinternet.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E06D3F.7090109@cimmeri.com> <56E0B35A.70006@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On 2016-Mar-09, at 3:35 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > On 09/03/2016 18:36, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >> >> On 3/9/2016 1:03 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >>> In a message dated 3/2/2016 3:32:48 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, >>> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com writes: >>> >>> ... >>> >>> The only process deviations I have allowed myself are as follows: >> >> Rod, very interesting! Do you have a description of the full process? Or what is the process after the screens are made? >> >> Thank you- >> -John >> > Well after the screens are made Then to do the actual printing you need a very skilled hand screen printer with > at least ten years experience. Getting five or six layers (some on the front and some on the back) to register (line up) is not for the amateur. > > My two girls are very good but even then we do not get 100% yeild. Oh, this reminds me of the first task I was assigned in my first job, as a teenager in the 70s. Local electronics engineering & manufacturing company with a contract to produce parts of the microwave-network remote control & monitoring system for the provincial hydro-electric utility. I was presented with photo-developed silk-screens stretched onto wood frames, the hinged framework that holds the screen and panels in alignment, stacks of lucite and painted-steel rack panels, the goopy paint, and the squeegee/wiper that you run along the screen to wipe the paint thru the screen and onto the panels, and given a rudimentary tutorial in what to do. It wasn't complex in that it was single-color/one-screen artwork, but the lettering was very fine, about the type-size of newsprint. It was near-impossible to get a smudge-free print. When the screen was sitting such that it contacted the panel the ink would wick between the panel and fabric screen, and blur the print. I improvised and adjusted the frame so the screen would sit a fraction above the panel and be pressed into contact as the squeegee passed over. But the screens were so large that they would inherently be stretched and pulled as the squeegee passed over, so again, smudged print. Every panel seemed to take multiple attempts. Being summer, while I was cleaning the panel of the fouled print with some noxious solvent, the paint would dry in the screen, so now the screen would have to be cleaned as well. Maybe more experience would have helped but my impression was they wanted to do too fine a resolution for the screen size (panels around 19" square). From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Wed Mar 9 22:13:11 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:13:11 -0500 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: <18c6bf.68b62900.44124e57@aol.com> I need a 90 mm summacron for my m2 (drop me a line off list if anyone has one) Yes I know the 105 f 2.5 nikkor you speak of great sharp portrait length lens for the nikon F! we have a small 105 mm red dot Goertz we used for copy work on 2 1/4 x 3 1/4 in compur shutter the one on the Robertson process camera I used in the 70s was 18 inch focal length as I remember. Ed# In a message dated 3/9/2016 6:53:06 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at aracnet.com writes: > On Mar 9, 2016, at 5:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat field lens > On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> Thanks,, >> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune even then, > > Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. > Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. > > For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. > And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. > All out of my price range. Personally I need a nice ASPH 28mm or 35mm Summicron. I have the original Nikkon 35mm f/2, one of the very first made, it?s been Ai?d, and it?s an AMAZING lens. The Goerz Dagor?s are actually pretty cheap at the moment, I?ve been thinking about them for my 8x10. I?m using a mixture of modern lenses on my 4x5. Somehow I don?t ever expect a digital 4x5 back to be affordable. I know one Photographer that has one, and it?s really only useable for reproduction work, in the studio. Keep in mind that digital backs that can cover 4x5 or larger are scanning backs. Have you considered adapting a scanner as one? I?ve seen in the past where folks have done that. Personally except for one project, I shoot B&W film when I?m shooting 4x5 or 8x10, I then process and print it myself. For the 8x10 (and hopefully eventually 11x14), I only shoot B&W, and only contact print. Zane From roland.schregle at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 14:38:56 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:38:56 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:29:56 +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > You could run the 3200 by netbooting it from a SIMH instance of VMS. If > the RD54 was formatted (and working!) then you could transfer VMS onto > the disk from the boot node. G'day Rob, thanks for the quick reply. I've contemplated the SIMH/netboot option (was made aware of it a while ago), but I'm not even sure the 3200 can netboot; at least it does have a DELQA, so correct me if I'm wrong. In any case, I'd have to set up DECnet under Linux first. > To format the RD54 you would need to find a 2000 though, or at least > borrow one. You should tell the list where you live as there might be > someone close by who could help out. The VS is located in Germany, but I'm currently working in Switzerland and won't get at the thing until my next vacation, probably sometime after Easter. I know that Bernd Ulmann (alias VAXMAN!) has a VS2000 and is --more or less-- close by, but I haven't managed to schedule a visit (yet). > It might be though that the RD54 is formatted, worth trying once you > netboot. I checked out the RD54 on an old ST506/412 controller a few years back, and it did seek. Of course I couldn't read the format, so I can't tell what's on it. It definitely doesn't boot on the VS. Any other way to check for a format from the console? > As for the KA675, I don't know really, I suspect you would be into > surface mount work, but with two boards you might be able to swap bits > around to get a working board. Perhaps if you got a KFQSA or a KZQSA you > could get this to work? Yep, it's SMT, but replacing a 22 pin DIP shouldn't be a big deal with the right tools and a bit of practice. But the console diags don't indicate the faulty chip! :^( The 4000 does have a KZQSA, and it boots from CD -- until it bails out with the async write error, which I assume has to do with the failed B-cache. Thanks for the hints, --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 9 14:59:27 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 20:59:27 -0000 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dr. > Roland Schregle > Sent: 09 March 2016 20:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:29:56 +0100, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > You could run the 3200 by netbooting it from a SIMH instance of VMS. > > If the RD54 was formatted (and working!) then you could transfer VMS > > onto the disk from the boot node. > > G'day Rob, thanks for the quick reply. > > I've contemplated the SIMH/netboot option (was made aware of it a while > ago), but I'm not even sure the 3200 can netboot; at least it does have a > DELQA, so correct me if I'm wrong. In any case, I'd have to set up DECnet > under Linux first. If it has a DELQA then you should be able to netboot it without issue. You don't need to set up DECnet under linux though. All you need is SIMH running DECnet (and possibly a cluster, I do it with a cluster, but I am not 100% sure it *has* to be a cluster). You just need a VMS ISO and you can get up and running. > > > To format the RD54 you would need to find a 2000 though, or at least > > borrow one. You should tell the list where you live as there might be > > someone close by who could help out. > > The VS is located in Germany, but I'm currently working in Switzerland and > won't get at the thing until my next vacation, probably sometime after > Easter. > > I know that Bernd Ulmann (alias VAXMAN!) has a VS2000 and is --more or > less-- close by, but I haven't managed to schedule a visit (yet). That sounds like you best bet to format the disk, if it needs formatting. > > > It might be though that the RD54 is formatted, worth trying once you > > netboot. > > I checked out the RD54 on an old ST506/412 controller a few years back, and > it did seek. Of course I couldn't read the format, so I can't tell what's on it. It > definitely doesn't boot on the VS. Any other way to check for a format from > the console? I don't have a 3200, nor can I find a manual, but since it looks to be more modern than a 2000, and apparently supports an RD54, then I would have thought the console firmware could format it. On the 2000 TEST 71 will check the disk and tell you what it is, TEST 70 will format it. Perhaps you could try those commands to see if they also work on the 3200. > > > As for the KA675, I don't know really, I suspect you would be into > > surface mount work, but with two boards you might be able to swap bits > > around to get a working board. Perhaps if you got a KFQSA or a KZQSA > > you could get this to work? > > Yep, it's SMT, but replacing a 22 pin DIP shouldn't be a big deal with the right > tools and a bit of practice. But the console diags don't indicate the faulty chip! > :^( I think one day I will have to equip myself and learn how to desolder and resolder surface mount chips. I don't know how many chips implement the B-CACHE, but perhaps you could replace all of them, assuming you know which ones they are. Perhaps some careful probing of the board with a scope might show if there any chips that are perhaps completely dead. You could do the same for the DSSI controller on the other board of course, if you can identify that. > > The 4000 does have a KZQSA, and it boots from CD -- until it bails out with the > async write error, which I assume has to do with the failed B-cache. > > Thanks for the hints, > > --GT > > > > -- > "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] > "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of > memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" > [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 9 17:11:51 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:11:51 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> On 3/9/2016 12:20 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: Marc Howard Sent: Wednesday, > March 09, 2016 8:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Only > Subject: Speaking of card cages... > Has anyone ever reproduced the card guides used in the 8/A chassis? I > assume these are identical to those used in PDP-11s as well. My are > beyond > brittle. > > Thanks, > Marc > --------- > Marc, > > do you have pictures? Here is a photo of one of the sides of the 8/A (which I will have to try to straighten). It is one of the strips of vertical bands with round card guides standing off for the cards to slide between. This is a 8/A 400 cage. The larger 8A 600 and larger cage may have different guides. A friend has one of those and I will get him to photograph it. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/search/label/PDP8A Thanks Jim > I googled but get different guides. > Are they small, like 5mm, and colored maroon or white? > Those are also used in the 11/44 box and expansion boxes, > I guess every BA11-K. > The BA11-L has white hard"plastic" blocks some 2" long > and has slits for 4 boards. > So, a picture or description would be helpful. > > - Henk, PA8PDP > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 9 16:20:16 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 14:20:16 -0800 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I don't have a 3200, nor can I find a manual, but since it looks to be more modern than a 2000, and apparently supports an RD54, then I would have thought the console firmware could format it. On the 2000 TEST 71 will check the disk and tell you what it is, TEST 70 will format it. Perhaps you could try those commands to see if they also work on the 3200. > Should be an M7620 KA650 CPU in a BA23 box with an M7168 / M7169 VCB02 QDSS video subsystem. The storage controller should be an M7555 RQDX3. Manual available here: http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/hcps/154aaow1.pdf If you could swap a Q-Bus PDP-11 CPU and memory in for the KA650 VAX CPU then you could run XXDP ZRQCH0 diagnostics to format the RD54 on the RQDX3. From drb at msu.edu Wed Mar 9 16:22:04 2016 From: drb at msu.edu (Dennis Boone) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 17:22:04 -0500 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: (Your message of Wed, 09 Mar 2016 19:26:51 +0100.) References: Message-ID: <20160309222204.71A25A58537@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> > Box #1 is a VAX4000 model 400 with no working CPU (KA-675) and 2x > 32Mb RAM, an RF72 (wiped), plus a KZQSA QBUS controller. PSU is good, > fans squeal on startup but run silently once spun up. Have VMS > installation media in CD. If you can sort out the CPU issue, you probably have enough here to achieve this in several different ways. The KZQSA doesn't usually work well with hard drives, but I'm pretty sure I installed my /600 from CD using its KZQSA and an older SCSI CD-ROM drive (probably an older Toshiba). The RF72 disk is a 1GB DSSI drive, and I think it's supported by the base /400 machine. Once you have a working CPU, you can actually do some testing on this disk drive with just the VAX console firmware, because it's intelligent, and you can connect to it via a maintenance protocol and give it commands. Alternative to CD installation would be to install VMS in SimH and use the virtual VAX to netboot and install the hardware VAX. > Box #2 is a VAXstation 3200 with TK50, and an RD54. PSU and fans ok > (and very quiet), ditto CPU. The RD54 is unformatted; I understand > this can only be formatted in the field with a VS2000 or with some > obscure field diagnostics. There's no SCSI controller, so I can't > install from CD. I haven't been able to track down VMS installation > media on TK50, and I doubt they'd still be readable anyway. On top of > that I have no idea what condition the drive is in, as I have no > blank tapes to test with. I've found tape images online but see no > way to dump these to TK50 (assuming the drive is ok), unless I get a > TZ30. After formatting the RD54 using the nearby VS2000, the way to get this one online is probably to netboot it from the SimH VMS instance described above. However, is the RD54 unformatted, or just empty of data? It's _in_ a VS3200, after all. De From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 9 17:09:02 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:09:02 +0000 (WET) Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 09 Mar 2016 19:26:51 +0100" Message-ID: <01PXMGG0ED1Y00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have two KA-675s for this beast: Board #1 (originally installed) has a > failed B-cache (console reports SUBTEST_35_12, DE_B_Cache_diag_mode.LIS) > and crashes with an asynchronous write memory failure when booting VMS > from CD. > I wonder is there a way to disable the B-cache? I mention this because I have more than one Alphaserver 1000A with failed B-cache and I have found it is possible to work around this issue by moving a jumper on the CPU board to disable the B-cache. The result is that the machine works with reduced performance. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Mar 9 17:16:20 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 15:16:20 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: From: Marc Howard: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:51 AM > Has anyone ever reproduced the card guides used in the 8/A chassis? I > assume these are identical to those used in PDP-11s as well. My are beyond > brittle. I have 3D printed the ones here: http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/CardGuide/8AGuide.jpg with some success. They are still fragile things, even when new. The hardest part is the springy bits that clip into the card cage. They can be not springy enough, or they're too hard and snap off instead of compressing. (I've also snapped the spine off the guide trying to compress them.) Still, with the right plastic and the right print, they seem to work at least as well as the aged originals did. Vince From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Wed Mar 9 17:19:54 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:19:54 +0000 (WET) Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 09 Mar 2016 20:59:27 +0000" <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PXMH6J64BE00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> > > If it has a DELQA then you should be able to netboot it without issue. You > don't need to set up DECnet under linux though. All you need is SIMH running > DECnet (and possibly a cluster, I do it with a cluster, but I am not 100% sure > it *has* to be a cluster). You just need a VMS ISO and you can get up and > running. > It's the other way around. Cluster communications is pretty much essential and DECnet is not always required. When you boot VMS over the network, the machine being booted normally ends up clustered with the machine it is booted from. The machine being booted can then obtain disk services from the boot node or any other cluster member using cluster communications. DECnet is not strictly necessary for any of this although it is recommended that DECnet be installed for the purpose of remote management of cluster nodes. Early versions of VMS need to have DECnet installed on the boot node because DECnet includes support for MOP which is the protocol used for the initial network boot request and response. Later VMS versions include LANCP which can also provide MOP support without the presence of DECnet. You definately do not need DECnet on a host machine running an emulator. You don't need to install anything special to handle cluster communications or MOP either. Typically, the emulator will require the installation of some network interface package that allows it to inject/extract the required protocols directly to/from the network. > > > Yep, it's SMT, but replacing a 22 pin DIP shouldn't be a big deal with the > > right tools and a bit of practice. But the console diags don't indicate the > > faulty chip! :^( > Back in the 1980's, I successfully repaired my friends Jupiter Ace by replacing the RAM chip which burnt my finger. You probably won't get that lucky though. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 9 18:07:24 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:07:24 -0500 (EST) Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <201603100007.TAA09973@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have also considered selling the units (or parts thereof) if > nothing gives. If it comes to that, I am quite sure you will find buyers for at least some of it; heck, for a QBus SCSI interface I'd pony up some cash myself (and there aren't many things I'd be interested enough in to more than cover shipping for, especially now that I'm as physical-space-constrained as I am). /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Mar 9 21:27:19 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 19:27:19 -0800 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E0DA08.2060500@pico-systems.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E0DA08.2060500@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: Had my numbers mixed PLC-2 family 1772-M8 and -M16 Pretty bad since one is about 20 feet away from me -pete On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 6:20 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/09/2016 11:30 AM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > >> Before uP's many used bit slice's I'm slowly putting together a >> Westinghouse Numa-Logic 700 and 1200 setup. (BTW anyone have parts, >> software, etc ?). >> >> In my opinion Modicom was the best, did not need external cooling, A/B has >> clout thus pretty much dominated. Did you know they used core at first and >> some customers demanded it since it kept its ones and zeros when the power >> went away ? >> > As far as I know, the 7300 never used core. No sign of anything like that > in the book. They did have a big backup battery for the DRAM, I used a > couple AH 12 V Gel Cell battery. The charger for the Gel Cell ran when the > control power was off, so it was supposed to maintain the memory > indefinitely - except the memory power switch had a dirty contact and would > dump the memory every couple of weeks. > > Jon > > From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 9 23:45:59 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:45:59 -0600 Subject: Early Microprocessors in Industrial Microcomputers In-Reply-To: <56E0DF4C.1040805@sydex.com> References: <56E05435.5070009@pico-systems.com> <56E0DF4C.1040805@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56E10A17.5040205@pico-systems.com> On 03/09/2016 08:43 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/09/2016 08:49 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > >> The row of red LEDs at the bottom of the pic is the front >> panel of >> the 7300 CPU. They had an industrial control bus that >> allowed you to >> connect a wide variety of interface boards, like encoder >> counters, >> DACs, digital inputs and outputs, etc. It used >> battery-backed DRAM, >> and was made around 1978. > > Much of the old Mitsubishi CNC gear uses battery-backed > RAM via a lead-acid storage battery "floated" on a > supply. A tape or diskette drive is used for loading it > with parameters and software. Once read, the floppy isn't > used for regular operation. > The A-B was loaded from paper tape. I didn't get the CNC executive with it, just the CPU diagnostics. I found a guy on the net who serviced these oldsters and made a tape on one of his customer's machines. I then had to write a disassembler and patch the code to make it work on my specific setup. Mostly, I had to change the encoder resolution. Lucky for me, it was only a 2:1 change. I quickly built a "BTR" (behind the reader) interface to a laptop, and used it to download the executive and then it drip-fed the CNC program a line at a time to the A-B control. When CPU power was off, the DRAM arrays were powered up 640 times a second and a complete refresh cycle was done, then the DRAMS were powered off again. If you leaned close to the memory power supply, you could hear the 640 Hz tone. Jon From jws at jwsss.com Wed Mar 9 23:46:50 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 21:46:50 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E10A4A.702@jwsss.com> On 3/9/2016 3:16 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote: > From: Marc Howard: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:51 AM >> Has anyone ever reproduced the card guides used in the 8/A chassis? I >> assume these are identical to those used in PDP-11s as well. My are >> beyond >> brittle. > > I have 3D printed the ones here: > http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/cad/3d.php > http://svn.so-much-stuff.com/svn/trunk/3D/CardGuide/8AGuide.jpg Those are different than the ones I have in my cage. Marc, do you have ones like mine, or Vince's? Again I've not seen the ones in the 600 chassis, so don't know if they are what Vince printed or not. These are more like the ones that were used in most of the Microdata 1600 card cages. They used one piece ones like this, and ones with two slotted guides / slot as well in those. As I said in my reply the ones in the 400 card cage are the ones which have the round blisters with two strips composing all the card guides on each side, rather than one / slot. thanks Jim > with some success. > They are still fragile things, even when new. The hardest part is the > springy bits that clip into the card cage. They can be not springy > enough, or they're too hard and snap off instead of compressing. > (I've also snapped the spine off the guide trying to compress them.) > > Still, with the right plastic and the right print, they seem to work > at least as well as the aged originals did. > > Vince > From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 00:14:29 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 22:14:29 -0800 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <201603100007.TAA09973@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <201603100007.TAA09973@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 4:07 PM, Mouse wrote: >> I have also considered selling the units (or parts thereof) if >> nothing gives. > > If it comes to that, I am quite sure you will find buyers for at least > some of it; heck, for a QBus SCSI interface I'd pony up some cash > myself (and there aren't many things I'd be interested enough in to > more than cover shipping for, especially now that I'm as > physical-space-constrained as I am). > An M5976 KZQSA can often be picked up cheap on eBay as they are not MSCP compatible and are really only good for accessing SCSI CD-ROM drives while running VMS, or while installing VMS. They do work well for that. For example this one sold for only $25 a month or two ago with only one bidder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/111875354977 From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 01:37:50 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 01:37:50 -0600 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only company with more than one. I know there are a lot of great optics out there, but I still love Zeiss. I have several Zeiss cameras, binoculars, microscopes, etc. With everything going digital, and various health problems, I haven't touched my Contax RTSs in years. I was planning on buying a digital body to use my optics, but they never released one. If anyone knows of a good digital body that will adapt to RTS optics, please let me know. Paul On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat >>> field lens >>> >> On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Thanks,, >> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune >> even then, >> > > Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. > Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. > > For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, > and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. > And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. > All out of my price range. > > > From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 01:41:07 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 01:41:07 -0600 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: I also don't know if I will ever use my darkroom again, and have Omega D2, other enlargers, print washers and dyers, etc that I don't need. On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only > company with more than one. > > I know there are a lot of great optics out there, but I still love Zeiss. > I have several Zeiss cameras, binoculars, microscopes, etc. > > With everything going digital, and various health problems, I haven't > touched my Contax RTSs in years. I was planning on buying a digital body to > use my optics, but they never released one. > > If anyone knows of a good digital body that will adapt to RTS optics, > please let me know. > > Paul > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat >>>> field lens >>>> >>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Thanks,, >>> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune >>> even then, >>> >> >> Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. >> Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. >> >> For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, >> and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. >> And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. >> All out of my price range. >> >> >> > From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 10 01:52:04 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:52:04 -0800 Subject: PDP 8/A restoration (update to squaring up card cage) Message-ID: <56E127A4.1000606@jwsss.com> One of the photos of the PDP 8/A 400 came from this Herb Johnson page, which is a diary of what I'm going to be doing after I true up the card cage. Excellent looking diary of what to check with the unit I have. Hopefully with less drama and more things checking out. http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_repairs.html thanks Jim From emu at e-bbes.com Thu Mar 10 01:25:58 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 08:25:58 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160310082558.bzkqtt3iroo040go@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von "Dr. Roland Schregle" : > The VS is located in Germany, but I'm currently working in Switzerland > and won't get at the thing until my next vacation, probably sometime > after Easter. Where in Germany? From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 10 01:49:38 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Wed, 9 Mar 2016 23:49:38 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> References: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> On 3/9/2016 3:11 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 3/9/2016 12:20 PM, Henk Gooijen wrote: >> Here is a photo of a PDP 8/A 620 with the style of card guides that Vince is referring to: (I think) http://www.oldcomputers.arcula.co.uk/files/images/pdp8408.jpg Different than the 8/A 400. Here is a very clear photo of the card guides and cage for that beast. http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_1sttest_trans.jpg Thanks Jim >> do you have pictures? > Here is a photo of one of the sides of the 8/A (which I will have to > try to straighten). It is one of the strips of vertical bands with > round card guides standing off for the cards to slide between. > > This is a 8/A 400 cage. The larger 8A 600 and larger cage may have > different guides. A friend has one of those and I will get him to > photograph it. > > http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/search/label/PDP8A > > Thanks > Jim >> I googled but get different guides. >> Are they small, like 5mm, and colored maroon or white? >> Those are also used in the 11/44 box and expansion boxes, >> I guess every BA11-K. >> The BA11-L has white hard"plastic" blocks some 2" long >> and has slits for 4 boards. >> So, a picture or description would be helpful. >> >> - Henk, PA8PDP >> >> > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Mar 10 02:35:31 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:35:31 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> References: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <428B0B05E11C4422AF3B192DE5124571@Vincew7> From: jwsmobile: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:49 PM > Here is a photo of a PDP 8/A 620 with the style of card guides that > Vince is referring to: (I think) > > http://www.oldcomputers.arcula.co.uk/files/images/pdp8408.jpg Yep, that's what mine look like. > Different than the 8/A 400. > Here is a very clear photo of the card guides and cage for that beast. > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_1sttest_trans.jpg Yes. I'm unclear on whether the other kind could be used. It looks like the appropriate little rectangular holes are provided, but I don't think I have a 400 to try it. Those "400" guides actually look easier to use. The kind I have are frail and fussy. Vince From useddec at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 03:26:00 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 03:26:00 -0600 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <20160310082558.bzkqtt3iroo040go@webmail.opentransfer.com> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <20160310082558.bzkqtt3iroo040go@webmail.opentransfer.com> Message-ID: I might have spare cpu and memory cards. Please contact me off list if you are interested. Paul On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:25 AM, wrote: > Zitat von "Dr. Roland Schregle" : > > > The VS is located in Germany, but I'm currently working in Switzerland >> and won't get at the thing until my next vacation, probably sometime >> after Easter. >> > > Where in Germany? > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 10 04:08:07 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 11:08:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: Sequoia Computer Systems? In-Reply-To: <000801d17a58$9a7a44b0$cf6ece10$@classiccmp.org> References: <000801d17a58$9a7a44b0$cf6ece10$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Jay West wrote: > Anyone have any pictures, datasheets, or other ephemera related to Sequoia > Systems line of fault tolerant systems? That's what I found in the Computer Review No. 1 from 1987, page 351: SEQUOIA SYSTEMS: SEQUOIA POWER: 50.0 MIPS INTRODUCED IN 1984, THE SEQUOIA SYSTEM PROVIDES FAULT-TOLERANCE FOR COMMERCIAL, ON-LINE TRANSACTION PROCESSING. REDUNDANT MC68010 PROCESSORS IN A TIGHTLY COUPLED ARCHITECTURE CAN BE CONFIGURED TO MINI-THROUGH LARGE MAINFRAME PER- FORMANCE. 2 TO 64 CPU'S, EACH USING 128K CACHE, 4MB MAIN MEMORY AND 1 OR 2 I/O PROCESSORS, MAY BE COMBINED MODULARLY. PROCESSORS ALL RUN A SINGLE COPY OF THE OS AND ARE CHECKED BY REDUNDANT COMPARATORS 10M TIMES/SEC. DUAL, SEGMENTED 40- BIT WIDE BUSES AND AUTOLOAD BALANCING OPTIMIZE THE UNIX-BASED SYSTEM FOR TRANS- ACTION MANAGEMENT.I/O CHANNEL PROCESSORS HAVE 512K MEMORY & FOUR 4KB BUFFERS EA. APPLICATIONS: BUSINESS COMPUTER PERIPHERALS WORD SIZE: 16/32 BITS REMOVABLE DISK: 300MB MEMORY: 4096 TO 262144KB FIXED DISK: 404/640mb MEMORY CYCLE TIME: 100NS FLEXIBLE DISK: CACHE MEMORY: 128KB MAGNETIC TAPE: 6250/1600 GCR I/O TRANSFER RATE: 80MB/SEC LINE PRINTER: 600 LPM USERS PER SYSTEM: 512 SERIAL PRINTER: VIRTUAL MEMORY: YES DISPLAY TERMINAL: ASCII FLOATING POINT: MULTIPLEXOR: MEMORY ERROR CORRECT: STD OTHER: 6250BPI GCR MAG TAPE DRIVE SYSTEMS SOFTWARE I/O COMMUNICATIONS * REAL TIME MNTR: TRM ASYNCHRONOUS: STD BATCH MONITOR BISYNCHRONOUS: STD * DATA BASE SYS: INGRES (RELATIONAL) DIRECT MEMORY ACCESS: OPERATING SYSTEM: UNIX V, UNIX 4.2B OTHER: IEEE-796 (MULTIBUS); RS232; PROGRAMMING LANGUAGES MARKETING BASIC * PASCAL COMPUTER: * COBOL APL MAINTENANCE: * FORTRAN RPG MAIN MARKET: END USER OTHER: SYSTEM: $290000, 4096KB SYSTEM PRICE DESCRIPTION BASIC SYSTEM FEATURES 2 PROCESSING ELEMENTS, 2.5 MIPS, TWO 2MB MEMORY ELEMENTS, 2 I/O ELEMENTS, SYSTEM CABINET W/ DUAL SYSTEMS BUS SEGMENTS, PERIPHERAL CABINET W/ 2 MULTIBUSES, 404MB DISK, COMMUNICA. CONTROLLER, OPERATING SYS & C COMPILER. That's it... Christian From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Mar 10 04:49:16 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 05:49:16 -0500 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: <12d0a3.499b9dbb.4412ab2b@aol.com> Paul - My darkroom became a storage room! still have the monster 5x7 durst enlarger w/ vacuum easel that I had since the 70s. what a beast! then I have small 2x3 omega to pull strips of negatives though to print. yea the digital stuff was a game changer indeed... I do not know about the contax rts lenses fitting new bodys.. they were nice lenses, It would be good to use them! Ed# In a message dated 3/10/2016 12:41:11 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, useddec at gmail.com writes: I also don't know if I will ever use my darkroom again, and have Omega D2, other enlargers, print washers and dyers, etc that I don't need. On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 1:37 AM, Paul Anderson wrote: > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only > company with more than one. > > I know there are a lot of great optics out there, but I still love Zeiss. > I have several Zeiss cameras, binoculars, microscopes, etc. > > With everything going digital, and various health problems, I haven't > touched my Contax RTSs in years. I was planning on buying a digital body to > use my optics, but they never released one. > > If anyone knows of a good digital body that will adapt to RTS optics, > please let me know. > > Paul > > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >> posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat >>>> field lens >>>> >>> On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >>> Thanks,, >>> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune >>> even then, >>> >> >> Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. >> Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. >> >> For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, >> and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. >> And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. >> All out of my price range. >> >> >> > From roland.schregle at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:23:41 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:23:41 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:20:16 +0100, Glen Slick wrote: > On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 12:59 PM, Robert Jarratt > wrote: >> >> I don't have a 3200, nor can I find a manual, but since it looks to be >> more modern than a 2000, and apparently supports an RD54, then I would >> have thought the console firmware could format it. On the 2000 TEST 71 >> will check the disk and tell you what it is, TEST 70 will format it. >> Perhaps you could try those commands to see if they also work on the >> 3200. >> > > Should be an M7620 KA650 CPU in a BA23 box with an M7168 / M7169 VCB02 > QDSS video subsystem. The storage controller should be an M7555 RQDX3. > > Manual available here: > http://manx.classiccmp.org/collections/hcps/154aaow1.pdf > > If you could swap a Q-Bus PDP-11 CPU and memory in for the KA650 VAX > CPU then you could run XXDP ZRQCH0 diagnostics to format the RD54 on > the RQDX3. Yep, it's in a BA23 with a ridiculously dense Q-Bus. I considered installing the KZQSA from the 4000 in the 3200, but the edge connectors won't fit even after removing the panel, plus I read in the list archives that the 3200 won't boot from it. :^( There's a QDSS as you point out, but I haven't tested it yet; need a splitter cable and one of those elusive VSXXX mice. Do have an LK201 knocking about tho. Wasn't aware the XXDP diags run on a PDP... --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 10 08:25:56 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:25:56 -0500 (EST) Subject: QSIC update Message-ID: <20160310142556.8FCC918C0BF@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Henk Gooijen >> He's now starting in on interrupt cycles; once those work, he >> effectively has emulation of a minimal small RK > sounds very good - nice progress! Interrupts are now working, and as of yesterday (when I finally managed to get all the bugs out of my diagnostic - we can't use the DEC ones since it doesn't yet emulate a full RK drive) it will sit and read and write blocks as long as we let it, interrupting after each transfer. I'm about to upgrade the diagnostic to test more features, such as multi-block transfers, etc. Dave is about to start work on SD card support. > When you get to it, that will be a fast swap drive ;-) Indeed! It seems to transfer a complete sector in about 600 usec, when running a 'disk' in RAM - it's only even that 'slow' because for some reason, which Dave is investigating, the CPU (an 11/73) seems to take about 1usec to do a DMA grant after the previous cycle, even when it and the QBUS are idle (the CPU is in a WAIT instruction while the transfer is happening, with my diagnostic). Each individual word seems to take about 900 nsec; not great, but not bad. Dave's going to look at that in some detail, too. And of course there are zero seek and rotational delays, so it will be pretty zoomy (although of course the SD 'disk' will also have that characteristic, but we don't yet know if the SD will support the full QBUS bandwidth, the way the RAM certainly will). But even if it is that fast, it's still probably worth having the RAM disk, because it will avoid putting write cycles on the SD card memory. (I myself plan to put /tmp, and pipes, on a RAM disk, for just that reason. In V6 Unix, at least, a system call to move pipes off the root disk is one line of code... :-) Noel From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 09:59:38 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 07:59:38 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only > company with more than one. One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. > I know there are a lot of great optics out there, but I still love Zeiss. > I have several Zeiss cameras, binoculars, microscopes, etc. It?s hard to dislike Zeiss, in fact I don?t know anyone that does. :-) > With everything going digital, and various health problems, I haven't > touched my Contax RTSs in years. I was planning on buying a digital body to > use my optics, but they never released one. > > If anyone knows of a good digital body that will adapt to RTS optics, > please let me know. Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses on them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at the edges. I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, as it would allow me to use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently only use on 35mm film bodies. Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the Nikkor 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. Zane From roland.schregle at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:32:23 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:32:23 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <20160309222204.71A25A58537@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> References: <20160309222204.71A25A58537@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 23:22:04 +0100, Dennis Boone wrote: > The RF72 disk is a 1GB DSSI drive, and I think it's supported by the > base /400 machine. Once you have a working CPU, you can actually do > some testing on this disk drive with just the VAX console firmware, > because it's intelligent, and you can connect to it via a maintenance > protocol and give it commands. I've talked to it and run the diags; looks good. It is incredibly noisy though with its intermittent recalibration grind. Note that the console seems to do fine with the failed B-cache... until you boot. > After formatting the RD54 using the nearby VS2000, the way to get this > one online is probably to netboot it from the SimH VMS instance > described above. However, is the RD54 unformatted, or just empty of > data? It's _in_ a VS3200, after all. I retrofitted the RD54, the VS was originally diskless. I had to run a cable to the I/O bulkhead from the controller, so apparently it never had a disk and may have indeed netbooted from a cluster node. I have no idea what's on that disk, and the neither did the previous owner. BOOT definitely fails, and the VS3200 console seems to lack any way of testing it. --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From roland.schregle at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:39:29 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:39:29 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:59:27 +0100, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I think one day I will have to equip myself and learn how to desolder > and resolder surface mount chips. I don't know how many chips implement > the B-CACHE, but perhaps you could replace all of them, assuming you > know which ones they are. Perhaps some careful probing of the board with > a scope might show if there any chips that are perhaps completely dead. > You could do the same for the DSSI controller on the other board of > course, if you can identify that. Our lab has an EE department with some pretty fancy SM gear, I just have to practice on it (which would come in handy anyway). The B-cache consists of 18x CY7C166-20 SRAM plus 5x CY7C170A-25 tag RAM, so they're easily identified (the KA-675 manual infact points them out). Replacing 18 SRAMs doesn't sound like a lot of fun, and I have no idea how to probe the board in the cardcage without disassembling the chassis, in which case the thing may overheat; opening the CPU bulkhead infact triggers a prompt reaction from the fan controller. FWIW, here's a thermography (hope the link works) of the B-cache section of the KA-675 after being powered up for ca. 30 mins: https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nsx1dfngp1jfq5/TH710065.BMP?dl=0 Note that the rightmost chip just below the CPU heatsink has a pin that's ca. 2 degrees warmer than the others. I don't know if that says anything, but it *is* reproducible. Maybe I should start with that one. The dead DSSI controller on the other board is easily identified, as it was physically destroyed in transit. I'm not inclined to transplant a 160-pin PGA as my first foray into SMT... :^\ Thanks for the feedback, --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From roland.schregle at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 06:40:42 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:40:42 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <01PXMGG0ED1Y00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PXMGG0ED1Y00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 00:09:02 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > >> >> I have two KA-675s for this beast: Board #1 (originally installed) has >> a failed B-cache (console reports SUBTEST_35_12, >> DE_B_Cache_diag_mode.LIS) and crashes with an asynchronous write memory >> failure when booting VMS from CD. >> > > I wonder is there a way to disable the B-cache? > I mention this because I have more than one Alphaserver 1000A with failed > B-cache and I have found it is possible to work around this issue by > moving a > jumper on the CPU board to disable the B-cache. The result is that the > machine > works with reduced performance. Yeah, I wondered about that too, but there's no jumper on the KA-675. Interestingly the console firmware has no problem with the failed B-cache, or somehow bypasses it. Booting VMS fails though. --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 10 07:23:34 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:23:34 +0000 (WET) Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:39:29 +0100" References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <01PXNA7IHNGO007J3U@beyondthepale.ie> > > FWIW, here's a thermography (hope the link works) of the B-cache section > of the KA-675 after being powered up for ca. 30 mins: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nsx1dfngp1jfq5/TH710065.BMP?dl=0 > > Note that the rightmost chip just below the CPU heatsink has a pin that's > ca. 2 degrees warmer than the others. I don't know if that says anything, > but it *is* reproducible. Maybe I should start with that one. > I can't really make it out on the image but if it is just one pin that is hot, maybe there is nothing more complicated wrong than a bad solder joint at that pin, particularly if it is a power or ground pin. Regards, Peter Coghlan From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 10:42:41 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 08:42:41 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: >> If anyone knows of a good digital body that will adapt to RTS optics, >> please let me know. On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Zane Healy wrote: > Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses > on them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full > frame sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing > issues at the edges. I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, > as it would allow me to use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently > only use on 35mm film bodies. one of these days, . . . The Sony Nex/E-mount is a very thin camera. Thinner than the Micro-Four-Thirds. It can take a C-mount lens without needing a recessed adapter. I gotta dig out my Goerz Hypar and try that on my Nex (not an A7, alas). Even the canonical Leica mount adapter has thickness. (Note: the only digital that can handle a D-mount is the Pentax-Q. It claims to be the smallest interchangeable lens digital - I need to get a letter writing campaign going to convince Minox to redo their Minox-Leica as a screw-mount using C or D mount!) I have not seen an RTS adapter for Sony Nex/E-mount. If you can find an RTS adapter, even for anything else, . . . There are readily available adapters for a lot of other mounts. Even for Micro-Four-Thirds! So, if you can tolerate stacking adapters, you could adapt to something else, such as Canon EOS, and then adapt from that. Some lenses may produce some vignetting, particularly if the adapters weren't intended for full-frame. You might also get a little vignetting from any very short focal length lens that isn't retro-focus, since the sensors are expecting all light to be coming in perpendicularly, not from a optic node very close to the center of the lens. THAT could be handled by a firmware mod, to give appropriately more exposure towards the edges. And, of course, use of most adapters elimates lens/camera communication, losing auto-focus, and sometimes even auto-stop-down. I have a Kenlock/Hama tilt/shift bellows, and a 47mm Super-Angulon (inCompur). With an A7, that would make a FUN close-up technical camera. From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 10:55:54 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 08:55:54 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: > You might also get a little vignetting from any very short focal length lens > that isn't retro-focus, since the sensors are expecting all light to be > coming in perpendicularly, not from a optic node very close to the center of > the lens. THAT could be handled by a firmware mod, to give appropriately > more exposure towards the edges. CORRECTION: The A7R actually addresses that! Not in software, but with lenses on the sensor chip! From henk.gooijen at hotmail.com Thu Mar 10 11:00:33 2016 From: henk.gooijen at hotmail.com (Henk Gooijen) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:00:33 +0100 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> References: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- From: jwsmobile Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 8:49 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Speaking of card cages... http://www.oldcomputers.arcula.co.uk/files/images/pdp8408.jpg http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_1sttest_trans.jpg I am pretty sure I have both, but I will out this weekend, so no visit to my "Home of Old Iron" to take pictures. Next week ... If the OP can say what he's looking for more clearly ... - Henk, PA8PDP - without any PDP8 :-( From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Mar 10 11:27:53 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 09:27:53 -0800 Subject: Speaking of card cages... In-Reply-To: <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> References: <56E0ADB7.7020308@jwsss.com> <56E12712.4040406@jwsss.com> Message-ID: <08CECFBB03A34CF7A2AEC9156F799714@Vincew7> From: jwsmobile: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 11:49 PM > Different than the 8/A 400. > Here is a very clear photo of the card guides and cage for that beast. > http://www.retrotechnology.com/restore/8a_1sttest_trans.jpg It is likely that with decent photos of one of these (outside the card cage), and maybe a couple of measurements, I could whip up a design file pretty easily. Isn't it essentially a row of circles with the right diameter, spacing, and depth (ending on half-circles), with some snap-in clips on the back? Vince From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 11:51:30 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:51:30 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 Message-ID: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. Thanks! Rich Sent from my iPhone From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 13:15:08 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:15:08 +0100 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Message-ID: 2016-03-10 18:51 GMT+01:00 Richard Cini : > Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which > CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. > Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? > I have been using RT11 v5.3 on a LSI-11/2 (KD11-HA / M7270) machine with RX02 and 64kByte memory. I also tried RT11 V3B / MU-BASIC on this machine booting from RX02. http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l Long ago I ran RT11 V4 on a VT103 with LSI11/2 CPU and dual TU58. It was really very slow. I have the distribution kit somewhere on original TU58 but I am not sure about the state of those cassettes. So I am pretty convinced that the it should work. What about SimH or Ersatz-11? Does your image boot on those simulators if you set the up identical to your setup? I know that SimH had problems booting from TU58 but as far as I remember that should have been fixed. Try the latest SimH on Github. Do you have enough working memory in your system? Have you ran diagnostics? Maybe it is a good idea to create a bootable TU58 with XXDP. If you use SimH you can create your own bootable TU58 without to much effort. I did this when working on my 11/04. Use one of the RL02 images on bitsavers and try to follow the guide I have a bit down on this page: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 > I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it > bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted > to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. > > Thanks! > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone Good luck! /Mattis From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Thu Mar 10 13:17:43 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:17:43 +0000 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECDED36@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Griffith Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 4:14 PM > On Tue, 8 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: >> From: David Griffith >> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:53 PM >>> Specifically I'm trying to build and run this: >>> CIRC 2,-^D18 >> Where did this code come from? > I got it from Jan deRie when I asked about it on a Youtube video[1] > showing the Panda Display in action. Something just occurred to me. Exactly *where* are you trying to run this program? On a kn10-kl (the extended KL-10 CPU defined by klh10), on a SimH KS-10, or on a real CPU (KL, KS, or Toad)? I just had a look at the klh10 sources and find that Ken Harrenstien added the CIRC instruction to his KL emulation as well as his KS emulation in 2002. If you're running any klh10-based emulation, that instruction ought to work. It would only work on MIT-specific real hardware. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 13:28:22 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:28:22 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Message-ID: Thanks Mattis. The system in question has 32kw of memory and it does pass the memory test. I have not tried to boot the resulting DD image on SIMH but the original RK image does boot. I feel I'm close but I'm missing something. I may try 5.3 instead. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2016-03-10 18:51 GMT+01:00 Richard Cini : > >> Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which >> CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. >> Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? > > I have been using RT11 v5.3 on a LSI-11/2 (KD11-HA / M7270) machine with > RX02 and 64kByte memory. I also tried RT11 V3B / MU-BASIC on this machine > booting from RX02. > > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp1103-l > > Long ago I ran RT11 V4 on a VT103 with LSI11/2 CPU and dual TU58. It was > really very slow. I have the distribution kit somewhere on original TU58 > but I am not sure about the state of those cassettes. > > > So I am pretty convinced that the it should work. What about SimH or > Ersatz-11? Does your image boot on those simulators if you set the up > identical to your setup? I know that SimH had problems booting from TU58 > but as far as I remember that should have been fixed. Try the latest SimH > on Github. > > Do you have enough working memory in your system? Have you ran diagnostics? > Maybe it is a good idea to create a bootable TU58 with XXDP. If you use > SimH you can create your own bootable TU58 without to much effort. I did > this when working on my 11/04. Use one of the RL02 images on bitsavers and > try to follow the guide I have a bit down on this page: > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/pdp-11-04 > > >> I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it >> bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted >> to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. >> >> Thanks! >> >> Rich >> >> Sent from my iPhone > > > Good luck! > > /Mattis From jwest at classiccmp.org Thu Mar 10 13:46:53 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 13:46:53 -0600 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Message-ID: <005701d17b05$98ea9b60$cabfd220$@classiccmp.org> The OP was specifically asking about RT11 on a Heathkit H11, not "just any ol' LSI-11". Very possible I'm completely incorrect here, but I thought I recalled that DEC gave heathkit a special price on H11 boards and OS license and such - so that Heathkit could produce the system for a price that the home user could actually afford back in the day. And because DEC was highly concerned that someone would buy a card or item from Heathkit and use it in a "real DEC PDP11" (business channel) where it would cost a lot more money normally - they did *something* to introduce an incompatibility of some sort between an H11 and a "real" pdp11? J From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 13:55:29 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:55:29 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <005701d17b05$98ea9b60$cabfd220$@classiccmp.org> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <005701d17b05$98ea9b60$cabfd220$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Thanks Jay. Admittedly I'm fishing here. I know that Heath had their own RT-11 for their floppy system but I don't have the floppy. The system is fairly generic in that it has only the CPU, RAM and two SLUs (one of which is used for an emulated TU58). Unless DEC made changes to the microm on the LSI-11, I think a regular distribution should work. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:46 PM, Jay West wrote: > > The OP was specifically asking about RT11 on a Heathkit H11, not "just any > ol' LSI-11". > > Very possible I'm completely incorrect here, but I thought I recalled that > DEC gave heathkit a special price on H11 boards and OS license and such - so > that Heathkit could produce the system for a price that the home user could > actually afford back in the day. And because DEC was highly concerned that > someone would buy a card or item from Heathkit and use it in a "real DEC > PDP11" (business channel) where it would cost a lot more money normally - > they did *something* to introduce an incompatibility of some sort between an > H11 and a "real" pdp11? > > J > > From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 10 13:54:16 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 19:54:16 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E1D0E8.5010509@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/03/2016 19:28, Richard Cini wrote: > Thanks Mattis. The system in question has 32kw of memory and it does > pass the memory test. > > I have not tried to boot the resulting DD image on SIMH but the > original RK image does boot. > > I feel I'm close but I'm missing something. I may try 5.3 instead. I've got various RX01, RX02, RL01 and RL02 disks with RT-11 v2, 4.0 and 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 and 5.7 and run them on real hardware. It's a long time since I've run v2, but the rest all run on my 11/73 as far as I remember. It may depend on the exact config (SYSGEN) but it certainly won't work unless you have exactly the right boot block on the media. -- Pete From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 10 14:08:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:08:22 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E1D0E8.5010509@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E1D0E8.5010509@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: <6AFD1A1B-A2FD-4E71-A3FA-D0A35BC52020@comcast.net> > On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > On 10/03/2016 19:28, Richard Cini wrote: >> Thanks Mattis. The system in question has 32kw of memory and it does >> pass the memory test. >> >> I have not tried to boot the resulting DD image on SIMH but the >> original RK image does boot. >> >> I feel I'm close but I'm missing something. I may try 5.3 instead. > > I've got various RX01, RX02, RL01 and RL02 disks with RT-11 v2, 4.0 and 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 and 5.7 and run them on real hardware. It's a long time since I've run v2, but the rest all run on my 11/73 as far as I remember. It may depend on the exact config (SYSGEN) but it certainly won't work unless you have exactly the right boot block on the media. V2 doesn't have sysgen. But yes, the boot block is device specific (at least in the early versions, I don't have experience with the later ones). You can use PIP to write a boot block of your choosing. paul From pete at dunnington.plus.com Thu Mar 10 15:03:04 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:03:04 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <6AFD1A1B-A2FD-4E71-A3FA-D0A35BC52020@comcast.net> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E1D0E8.5010509@dunnington.plus.com> <6AFD1A1B-A2FD-4E71-A3FA-D0A35BC52020@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56E1E108.6090008@dunnington.plus.com> On 10/03/2016 20:08, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Pete Turnbull >> wrote: >> >> On 10/03/2016 19:28, Richard Cini wrote: >>> I feel I'm close but I'm missing something. I may try 5.3 >>> instead. >> >> I've got various RX01, RX02, RL01 and RL02 disks with RT-11 v2, 4.0 >> and 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 and 5.7 and run them on real hardware. It's a >> long time since I've run v2, but the rest all run on my 11/73 as >> far as I remember. It may depend on the exact config (SYSGEN) but >> it certainly won't work unless you have exactly the right boot >> block on the media. > > V2 doesn't have sysgen. But yes, the boot block is device specific > (at least in the early versions, I don't have experience with the > later ones). You can use PIP to write a boot block of your > choosing. I know v2 doesn't have SYSGEN but IIRC you still need to need to have things set up right, like the driver files. I haven't used V3 (I have some RX01 flopppies with that and MuBASIC) in several decades so I can't remember if that was when it changed. But for all versions you need to set up the correct boot block for the specific boot device. 4.0 is so straightforward I'm surprised if it won't run on Rich's H11 - 4.0 is contemporary with the LSI-11 and 11/03 and although the other cards are different I thought the H11 used a standard DEC LSI-11 processor. Maybe something vital isn't at the expected address? Or there's an unexpected interrupt or something? What exactly does it do (or was it doing) when it barfs and how far does it get? -- Pete From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 15:08:27 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:08:27 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E1E108.6090008@dunnington.plus.com> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E1D0E8.5010509@dunnington.plus.com> <6AFD1A1B-A2FD-4E71-A3FA-D0A35BC52020@comcast.net> <56E1E108.6090008@dunnington.plus.com> Message-ID: If I have time tonight I'll log the session with "verbose" set on the TU58EM. Again, I'm trying the trick of booting from a TU58 emulator and an RK image with DD as the boot target (supposedly can work but maybe slow). I can see the blocks being read in but it stops and doesn't give me the sign-on banner. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2016, at 4:03 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > >> On 10/03/2016 20:08, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:54 PM, Pete Turnbull >>> wrote: >>> >>>> On 10/03/2016 19:28, Richard Cini wrote: >>>> I feel I'm close but I'm missing something. I may try 5.3 >>>> instead. >>> >>> I've got various RX01, RX02, RL01 and RL02 disks with RT-11 v2, 4.0 >>> and 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 and 5.7 and run them on real hardware. It's a >>> long time since I've run v2, but the rest all run on my 11/73 as >>> far as I remember. It may depend on the exact config (SYSGEN) but >>> it certainly won't work unless you have exactly the right boot >>> block on the media. >> >> V2 doesn't have sysgen. But yes, the boot block is device specific >> (at least in the early versions, I don't have experience with the >> later ones). You can use PIP to write a boot block of your >> choosing. > > I know v2 doesn't have SYSGEN but IIRC you still need to need to have things set up right, like the driver files. I haven't used V3 (I have some RX01 flopppies with that and MuBASIC) in several decades so I can't remember if that was when it changed. But for all versions you need to set up the correct boot block for the specific boot device. 4.0 is so straightforward I'm surprised if it won't run on Rich's H11 - 4.0 is contemporary with the LSI-11 and 11/03 and although the other cards are different I thought the H11 used a standard DEC LSI-11 processor. > > Maybe something vital isn't at the expected address? Or there's an unexpected interrupt or something? What exactly does it do (or was it doing) when it barfs and how far does it get? > > -- > Pete From Gary at realtimecomp.com Thu Mar 10 16:46:08 2016 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:46:08 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 Message-ID: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> There is no difference in the LSI-11 board on an H-11 and a pdp-11/03. What DEC did do was cripple Heath's version of RT-11 (called HT-11). It would only work with Heath's H-27 floppy drive unit. The Heath serial, parallel, and memory cards were all compatible with DEC's offerings, AFAIK. That being said, I personally don't have experience with true RT-11 on the H-11. -------- Original message -------- From: Richard Cini Date:03/10/2016 4:09 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 If I have time tonight I'll log the session with "verbose" set on the TU58EM. Again, I'm trying the trick of booting from a TU58 emulator and an RK image with DD as the boot target (supposedly can work but maybe slow). I can see the blocks being read in but it stops and doesn't give me the sign-on banner. Rich Sent from my iPhone From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 16:51:45 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:51:45 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> Message-ID: <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> Thanks Gary. This is my understanding as well since everything works with XXDP right from DEC and I'm not using the H-27. So, I remain optimistic that I can get this working. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Gary L. Messick wrote: > > There is no difference in the LSI-11 board on an H-11 and a pdp-11/03. What DEC did do was cripple Heath's version of RT-11 (called HT-11). It would only work with Heath's H-27 floppy drive unit. The Heath serial, parallel, and memory cards were all compatible with DEC's offerings, AFAIK. > That being said, I personally don't have experience with true RT-11 on the H-11. > > > -------- Original message -------- > From: Richard Cini > Date:03/10/2016 4:09 PM (GMT-05:00) > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 > > If I have time tonight I'll log the session with "verbose" set on the TU58EM. Again, I'm trying the trick of booting from a TU58 emulator and an RK image with DD as the boot target (supposedly can work but maybe slow). I can see the blocks being read in but it stops and doesn't give me the sign-on banner. > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 17:03:46 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:03:46 +1300 Subject: Xerox: MFM emulator: disk images available Message-ID: I've been hacking Xerox recently and using Dave's excellent MFM emulator. I'm making two working bootable images available. One is Lisp - the 'Lyric' distribution. It boots and works and appears complete and useful but I haven't explored Lisp enough to grok it. The other is a clean install of Viewpoint 3.1 with document editor and a few assorted utilities and games - and terminal emulators. Both come with readme files and configuration info. They can be picked up at: http://corestore.org/vpemu.zip and http://corestore.org/lispemu.zip With a following wind I may get other Xerox disk images up in the not too distant future - Star; 8010 and 8090 servers for starters. Maybe a Medley Lisp system. I'd be interested in hosting any other useful images for disk emulation - not just Dave's and not just Xerox - SCSI2SD etc. too - that anyone feels like contributing. Enjoy! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 17:40:08 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:40:08 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <874510ED-163D-47CF-A3A4-8861709354E7@aracnet.com> > On Mar 10, 2016, at 8:55 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Fred Cisin wrote: >> You might also get a little vignetting from any very short focal length lens that isn't retro-focus, since the sensors are expecting all light to be coming in perpendicularly, not from a optic node very close to the center of the lens. THAT could be handled by a firmware mod, to give appropriately more exposure towards the edges. > > CORRECTION: The A7R actually addresses that! Not in software, but with lenses on the sensor chip! I?ve been wondering about this. I thought I?d seen something about something newer than the A7 handling wide-angle lenses better than the original. BTW, someone is even preparing to come out with an adaptor that allows autofocus with Leica M-Mount lenses! http://petapixel.com/2016/01/07/this-adapter-gives-manual-focus-m-lenses-autofocus-on-sony-cameras/ Zane From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 17:49:01 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 15:49:01 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2016, at 8:42 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > > one of these days, . . . > The Sony Nex/E-mount is a very thin camera. Thinner than the Micro-Four-Thirds. It can take a C-mount lens without needing a recessed adapter. I gotta dig out my Goerz Hypar and try that on my Nex (not an A7, alas). > Even the canonical Leica mount adapter has thickness. Used A7?s are starting to show up at an affordable price. I almost bought one a few months ago. > (Note: the only digital that can handle a D-mount is the Pentax-Q. It claims to be the smallest interchangeable lens digital - I need to get a letter writing campaign going to convince Minox to redo their Minox-Leica as a screw-mount using C or D mount!) Okay, you?ve actually lost me on these. What is a D-mount? > I have not seen an RTS adapter for Sony Nex/E-mount. > If you can find an RTS adapter, even for anything else, . . . > There are readily available adapters for a lot of other mounts. Even for Micro-Four-Thirds! So, if you can tolerate stacking adapters, you could adapt to something else, such as Canon EOS, and then adapt from that. > Some lenses may produce some vignetting, particularly if the adapters weren't intended for full-frame. Take a look here: http://briansmith.com/sony-a7-a7r-lens-mount-adapters-2/ The list includes C/Y adapters, which I believe is what the Contax RTS would require. > I have a Kenlock/Hama tilt/shift bellows, and a 47mm Super-Angulon (inCompur). With an A7, that would make a FUN close-up technical camera. I *really* want a good sliding back that would allow me to use my Nikon D800 on either my Horseman 4x5 LX, or my Horseman 45FA. The problem being the standard ones only slide for a panoramic shot, I want one that pretty much covers the 4x5 frame, and that?s about $2k. I can get a lot of film developed, and the few shots that require it run through a drum scanner for $2k. I?m still considering one of the sub-$200.00 backs. Zane From cisin at xenosoft.com Thu Mar 10 18:11:23 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:11:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: >> (Note: the only digital that can handle a D-mount is the Pentax-Q. It >> claims to be the smallest interchangeable lens digital - I need to get >> a letter writing campaign going to convince Minox to redo their >> Minox-Leica as a screw-mount using C or D mount!) On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Zane Healy wrote: > Okay, you?ve actually lost me on these. What is a D-mount? C-Mount is the standard mount for 16mm movie, and then for TV cameras. D-mount is the standard mount for 8mm movie. About half the size as C. The Minox-Leica M3 is a tiny pocket digital that only resembles the appearance of a Leica M3. But, if they were to make a digital IIIf, they could have a functioning screw-mount, with interchangebale lenses. And take back their bragging rights from Pentax. BTW, Leitz made a C-mount 25mm lens version of the "Hektor-Rapid" "Super-8" hardly ever supported any interchangeable lenses. Well, one of the models of Leicina used Leica M-mount! There was a lens made for that camera; when used on a regular M, it only covers a tiny spot of the frame. From jws at jwsss.com Thu Mar 10 18:43:41 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 16:43:41 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (High speed cameras) In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56E214BD.8050802@jwsss.com> On 3/10/2016 4:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: >>> (Note: the only digital that can handle a D-mount is the Pentax-Q. >>> It claims to be the smallest interchangeable lens digital - I need >>> to get a letter writing campaign going to convince Minox to redo >>> their Minox-Leica as a screw-mount using C or D mount!) > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Zane Healy wrote: >> Okay, you?ve actually lost me on these. What is a D-mount? > > C-Mount is the standard mount for 16mm movie, and then for TV cameras. > D-mount is the standard mount for 8mm movie. About half the size as C. > Don't forget Photo-sonic or Fastair bayonet. I've got about half a dozen of the cameras and many more of the lenses. they go to 4mm fish eye out. Amazing optics. Also the Fastax and Locam lenses as well. Fastax is the system which can do 40000 fps, and the Locam can do 2000 fps. The Fastax takes 1000' reels and the Locam take 100'. The Hycam is a 1000' beast as well. I have collected these but have never fired one in anger. I'd have loved to have run the Hycam I have. With the 1000' magazine, you get about three stripes on it because it takes about 1/3 of the length of the film to get to full speed. The 40000fps is accomplished by moving the physical film @ 10000 fps speed, and they have a patented twirling mirror that shoots 4 1/4 frame images onto the moving film as the film flys by. you get a pass at the end 1/3 of the reel, another pass on the middle 1/3, and if you are motivated, you rewind the film and shoot again on the last 1/3. Even with the fastest film you can locate, you have to have a huge amount of light on anything to make it show up on the faster speeds. The Fastair was made by Wollensak for Lockheed Missile. The Locam and Hycam were made by Redlake labs. They are still around and make Photometrics / Redlake digital cameras. They take C mount lenses (both the film and digital cameras) for the most part. Thanks Jim > The Minox-Leica M3 is a tiny pocket digital that only resembles the > appearance of a Leica M3. But, if they were to make a digital IIIf, > they could have a functioning screw-mount, with interchangebale > lenses. And take back their bragging rights from Pentax. > > BTW, Leitz made a C-mount 25mm lens version of the "Hektor-Rapid" > > "Super-8" hardly ever supported any interchangeable lenses. > Well, one of the models of Leicina used Leica M-mount! There was a > lens made for that camera; when used on a regular M, it only covers a > tiny spot of the frame. > > From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 19:10:22 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:10:22 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <12d0a3.499b9dbb.4412ab2b@aol.com> References: <12d0a3.499b9dbb.4412ab2b@aol.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2016, at 2:49 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Paul - My darkroom became a storage room! About 4-5 years ago my ?Computer Lab? became my darkroom. :-) Though my Commodore 64 is setup between my Beseler 23C and my Beseler 45MX enlargers. :-) One of these days I have a darkroom project I want to do that involves using the Commodore 64. > still have the monster 5x7 durst enlarger w/ vacuum easel that I had since > the 70s. what a beast! then I have small 2x3 omega to pull strips of > negatives though to print. > > yea the digital stuff was a game changer indeed? Digital does have some advantages, but it also brings a lot of new challenges, when you?re doing ?fine art? prints like I am. The 10 prints I?ll be delivering to a Gallery on Saturday just about drove me crazy, due to strange tone issues with a couple prints. Such issues would have been trivial with traditional darkroom printing. Zane From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 19:24:51 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:24:51 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> Message-ID: Gary, et. al.-- Ok, I spent some time trying this again, and here?s what I did. The system is very basic ? LSI-11 CPU, 32kw of RAM and two SLU cards. Using PDP11GUI and TU58em emulator. XXDPD2D tape image loads and runs properly with this configuration and the standard boot loader. Based on the instructions on Malcom Macleod?s site, I prepared an RT-11 TU58-target tape image from the base RK05 image from the SIMH distribution. The key incantation is: COPY/BOOT:DD RK0:RT11SJ.SYS RK0: What this should do is make the disk image bootable as a TU58 image. Next, I fired-up TU58em, loaded the boot loader into the H11 and ran it. Here?s the log from TU58: D:\DEC>tu58em -v -p 3 -s 9600 -w rtv4_dd.dsk >>log.txt info: unit 0 rw file 'rtv4_dd.dsk' info: serial port 3 at 9600 baud info: TU58 emulation start info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit info: emulator started info: boot unit=0 blk=0x0000 cnt=0x0200 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0002 cnt=0x0800 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0006 cnt=0x0400 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0008 cnt=0x0400 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000A cnt=0x0400 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000C cnt=0x0400 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0134 cnt=0x0A00 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0085 cnt=0x0132 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0086 cnt=0x3CC8 At this point, the RUN LED goes off and the system halts. It looks like the boot loader is loading and running the second-level loader on the tape, but something happens after that. Not sure where to go from here. Thanks all! Rich -- Rich Cini Collector of Classic Computers Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 3/10/16, 5:51 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Richard Cini" wrote: Thanks Gary. This is my understanding as well since everything works with XXDP right from DEC and I'm not using the H-27. So, I remain optimistic that I can get this working. Rich Sent from my iPhone On Mar 10, 2016, at 5:46 PM, Gary L. Messick wrote: There is no difference in the LSI-11 board on an H-11 and a pdp-11/03. What DEC did do was cripple Heath's version of RT-11 (called HT-11). It would only work with Heath's H-27 floppy drive unit. The Heath serial, parallel, and memory cards were all compatible with DEC's offerings, AFAIK. That being said, I personally don't have experience with true RT-11 on the H-11. -------- Original message -------- From: Richard Cini Date:03/10/2016 4:09 PM (GMT-05:00) To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 If I have time tonight I'll log the session with "verbose" set on the TU58EM. Again, I'm trying the trick of booting from a TU58 emulator and an RK image with DD as the boot target (supposedly can work but maybe slow). I can see the blocks being read in but it stops and doesn't give me the sign-on banner. Rich Sent from my iPhone From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 19:25:32 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:25:32 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <281E8C18-12B1-417E-8257-2E4573FDB6A6@aracnet.com> > On Mar 10, 2016, at 4:11 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> (Note: the only digital that can handle a D-mount is the Pentax-Q. It claims to be the smallest interchangeable lens digital - I need to get a letter writing campaign going to convince Minox to redo their Minox-Leica as a screw-mount using C or D mount!) > > On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Zane Healy wrote: >> Okay, you?ve actually lost me on these. What is a D-mount? > > C-Mount is the standard mount for 16mm movie, and then for TV cameras. > D-mount is the standard mount for 8mm movie. About half the size as C. Ah! I knew what the C-Mount were, but hadn?t run across D-Mount. I looked at the cost to do 16mm movies today, and decided against that. I would like to add a video component to my main Photography project, and have decided to go with Super-8. Even then shooting B&W Super-8, getting it processed, and digitized, won?t be cheap. > The Minox-Leica M3 is a tiny pocket digital that only resembles the appearance of a Leica M3. But, if they were to make a digital IIIf, they could have a functioning screw-mount, with interchangebale lenses. And take back their bragging rights from Pentax. Okay, this is what I thought you were talking about with Minox. > BTW, Leitz made a C-mount 25mm lens version of the "Hektor-Rapid" > > "Super-8" hardly ever supported any interchangeable lenses. > Well, one of the models of Leicina used Leica M-mount! There was a lens made for that camera; when used on a regular M, it only covers a tiny spot of the frame. INTERESTING, I didn?t realize that, according to the one book I have, that?s the "Leicina Special", made from 1972 to 1977. It also looks like they sell for a lot more than is practical for my project. :-) I?d rather use a cheaper camera, and spend the money I save on film and processing! :-) I need to see about restoring the two Super-8 projectors I was given, and the Super-8 camera I found at an Estate sale. One projector needs a new belt, the other seems to be mostly functional. No clue on the camera. Zane From Gary at realtimecomp.com Thu Mar 10 19:29:21 2016 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 01:29:21 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924388CB68@SERVER.RealTime.local> Again, I don't really have much experience with RT-11. Is it possible the disk image has drivers for the disk system (which you don't have) and is crashing? Jerome Fine is the expert on RT-11. Jerome? Any ideas? Gary > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Richard > Cini > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 8:25 PM > To: CCTalk > Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 > > Gary, et. al.-- > > Ok, I spent some time trying this again, and here?s what I did. The system is > very basic ? LSI-11 CPU, 32kw of RAM and two SLU cards. Using PDP11GUI > and TU58em emulator. XXDPD2D tape image loads and runs properly with > this configuration and the standard boot loader. > > Based on the instructions on Malcom Macleod?s site, I prepared an RT-11 > TU58-target tape image from the base RK05 image from the SIMH > distribution. The key incantation is: > > COPY/BOOT:DD RK0:RT11SJ.SYS RK0: > > What this should do is make the disk image bootable as a TU58 image. > > Next, I fired-up TU58em, loaded the boot loader into the H11 and ran it. > Here?s the log from TU58: > > D:\DEC>tu58em -v -p 3 -s 9600 -w rtv4_dd.dsk >>log.txt > info: unit 0 rw file 'rtv4_dd.dsk' > info: serial port 3 at 9600 baud > info: TU58 emulation start > info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit > info: emulator started > info: boot unit=0 blk=0x0000 cnt=0x0200 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0002 cnt=0x0800 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0006 cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0008 cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000A cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000C cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0134 cnt=0x0A00 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0085 cnt=0x0132 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0086 cnt=0x3CC8 > > At this point, the RUN LED goes off and the system halts. It looks like the > boot loader is loading and running the second-level loader on the tape, but > something happens after that. Not sure where to go from here. > > Thanks all! > > Rich > > -- > Rich Cini > Collector of Classic Computers > Build Master and lead engineer, Altair32 Emulator > http://www.classiccmp.org/cini > http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Mar 10 19:51:45 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:51:45 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> On 3/10/2016 5:24 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > Gary, et. al.-- > > Ok, I spent some time trying this again, and here?s what I did. The system is very basic ? LSI-11 CPU, 32kw of RAM and two SLU cards. Using PDP11GUI and TU58em emulator. XXDPD2D tape image loads and runs properly with this configuration and the standard boot loader. > > Based on the instructions on Malcom Macleod?s site, I prepared an RT-11 TU58-target tape image from the base RK05 image from the SIMH distribution. The key incantation is: > > COPY/BOOT:DD RK0:RT11SJ.SYS RK0: > > What this should do is make the disk image bootable as a TU58 image. > > Next, I fired-up TU58em, loaded the boot loader into the H11 and ran it. Here?s the log from TU58: > > D:\DEC>tu58em -v -p 3 -s 9600 -w rtv4_dd.dsk >>log.txt > info: unit 0 rw file 'rtv4_dd.dsk' > info: serial port 3 at 9600 baud > info: TU58 emulation start > info: R restart, S toggle send init, V toggle verbose, D toggle debug, Q quit > info: emulator started > info: boot unit=0 blk=0x0000 cnt=0x0200 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0002 cnt=0x0800 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0006 cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0008 cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000A cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000C cnt=0x0400 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0134 cnt=0x0A00 > info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0085 cnt=0x0132 info: read unit=0 > sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0086 cnt=0x3CC8 At this point, the RUN LED goes off and the system halts. It looks like the boot loader is loading and running the second-level loader on the tape, but something happens after that. Not sure where to go from here. These last two read commands look awful suspicious to me. A single logical device block is 512B (or 0x200) so the count parameter is 0x200 for one block, 0x400 for two consecutive blocks, etc. 0xA00 is five consecutive blocks. However, 0x0132 (306. bytes) is a partial block read, and 0x3CC8 (15560.) is a read of 30.+ blocks. So I would speculate that the code went south prior to these two read commands. Just a guess of course as I have never done this particular task. But I would guess that the image you are using has been corrupted in the process. Don info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0085 cnt=0x0132 info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0086 cnt=0x3CC8 From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 19:57:43 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:57:43 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: On 3/10/16, 8:51 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Don North" wrote: > >These last two read commands look awful suspicious to me. A single logical >device block is 512B (or 0x200) so the count >parameter is 0x200 for one block, 0x400 for two consecutive blocks, etc. 0xA00 >is five consecutive blocks. > >However, 0x0132 (306. bytes) is a partial block read, and 0x3CC8 (15560.) is a >read of 30.+ blocks. So I would speculate >that the code went south prior to these two read commands. Just a guess of >course as I have never done this particular >task. But I would guess that the image you are using has been corrupted in the >process. > >Don > Good point, Don. Maybe I?ll re-create the image again and see if that helps. I?m using the RT11v4 image from the SIMH distribution and it boots just fine (as an RK05 image) under SIMH. Rich From js at cimmeri.com Thu Mar 10 19:59:28 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:59:28 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E22680.3090509@cimmeri.com> On 3/10/2016 8:24 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > Ok, I spent some time trying this again, and here?s what I did. The system is very basic ? LSI-11 CPU, 32kw of RAM and two SLU cards. Have you checked your SLU addresses and vectors to be sure they're standard values (ie. what RT11 is expecting)? I realize XXDP is running, but just confirm anyway. > Based on the instructions on Malcom Macleod?s site, I prepared an RT-11 TU58-target tape image from the base RK05 image from the SIMH distribution. The key incantation is: > > COPY/BOOT:DD RK0:RT11SJ.SYS RK0: > > What this should do is make the disk image bootable as a TU58 image. Can you then boot the SIMH PDP-11 using that TU58 image? > Not sure where to go from here. Well, you might really delve in and get yourself a real disk subsystem... RL02 or RX01. - JS. From js at cimmeri.com Thu Mar 10 20:01:41 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:01:41 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E22705.4090300@cimmeri.com> On 3/10/2016 8:57 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > Maybe I?ll re-create the image again and see if that helps. I?m using > the RT11v4 image from the SIMH distribution and it boots just fine (as > an RK05 image) under SIMH. Rich Try making an RL02 image from the RK05 image in SIMH and booting from that (in SIMH). - JS. From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 10 20:07:26 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:07:26 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> > On Mar 10, 2016, at 8:51 PM, Don North wrote: > >> ... >> info: boot unit=0 blk=0x0000 cnt=0x0200 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0002 cnt=0x0800 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0006 cnt=0x0400 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0008 cnt=0x0400 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000A cnt=0x0400 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x000C cnt=0x0400 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0134 cnt=0x0A00 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0085 cnt=0x0132 >> info: read unit=0 sw=0x00 mod=0x00 blk=0x0086 cnt=0x3CC8 >> At this point, the RUN LED goes off and the system halts. It looks like the boot loader is loading and running the second-level loader on the tape, but something happens after that. Not sure where to go from here. > > These last two read commands look awful suspicious to me. A single logical device block is 512B (or 0x200) so the count > parameter is 0x200 for one block, 0x400 for two consecutive blocks, etc. 0xA00 is five consecutive blocks. > > However, 0x0132 (306. bytes) is a partial block read, and 0x3CC8 (15560.) is a read of 30.+ blocks. So I would speculate > that the code went south prior to these two read commands. Just a guess of course as I have never done this particular > task. But I would guess that the image you are using has been corrupted in the process. I was wondering too. But then again, RT11 can do partial sector reads (and even writes). They go straight from application through the kernel to the driver. (A partial block write requires the device, or the driver, to zero-fill to the end of the block -- and yes, some applications require that and will break if it isn't done right, as I found out debugging the RC11 driver.) If memory serves, what you have is part 1 of the boot (1 sector, block 0), part 2 (2 sectors, block 2), then something is looking through the directory (sectors 6 and up) and then the read from block 134 is presumably a file being read (perhaps a program) and the stuff at 85 and 86 is ??? It might be informative to dump the directory from the tape and analyze it to see what files those later reads refer to. paul From isking at uw.edu Thu Mar 10 20:07:49 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:07:49 -0800 Subject: OT: where I've landed Message-ID: Hi all, I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the news this week: http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From tony.aiuto at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 20:10:21 2016 From: tony.aiuto at gmail.com (Tony Aiuto) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:10:21 -0500 Subject: OT: where I've landed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Well played. On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 9:07 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > Hi all, > > I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems > appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the news > this week: > > > http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ > > The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun > literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian > > PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now. > :-) > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From rich.cini at verizon.net Thu Mar 10 20:36:10 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 21:36:10 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> Message-ID: <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> On 3/10/16, 9:07 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning" wrote: > >> >If memory serves, what you have is part 1 of the boot (1 sector, block 0), part 2 (2 sectors, block 2), then something is looking through the directory (sectors 6 and up) and then the read from block 134 is presumably a file being read (perhaps a program) and the stuff at 85 and 86 is ??? > >It might be informative to dump the directory from the tape and analyze it to see what files those later reads refer to. > > Paul Paul ? the image is from the SIMH RT-11 V4.00 software set. There?s something like 150 files on the disk. Separately? John ? the SLUs are at what I think are the standard addresses and vectors (per the Heathkit and DLV11-J manuals) and the ODT and TU58EM work. I don?t know what RT-11 is looking for but the console @ 177560/60 and TU58 @ 176500/300 (Channel 3 and Channel 0 in DLV11-J parlance). I have not tried booting SIMH with the TU58 image (not sure how to do that; need to work on it). Regarding getting a real RX01 or RL02, the issue for me is space. It?s pretty convenient using a laptop and TU58EM (providing I can get something other than XXDPD2D to work). If someone has already built bootable TU58 RT-11 images, I haven?t found them yet. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 From mgariboldi at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:01:02 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 04:01:02 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-10 16:59 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > > > On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 > > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only > > company with more than one. > > One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C > lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. > Anything made for Hasselblad could hardly be called 'low-end'. (A bit like a 'low-end' SGI, there was basically never such a thing... certainly not in terms of original cost.) The only truly low-end Carl Zeiss optics are probably the *Pentacon* series, made by the post-WW II Carl Zeiss Jena branch of the GDR. Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses on > them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame > sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at > the edges. Which (affordable) lens *doesn't* have imperfect edges, especially completely analog lenses without any in-camera digital correction. (This can also be done afterwards, if one knows the possible distortion values.) The Sony a7-series aren't exactly cheap. More affordable and rather good, too, are ?4/3 cameras, especially in conjunction with a focal reducer, if the crop is too much of an obstruction. I gain an extra stop of light, on top of reducing the crop, with my M42/Praktica thread mount lenses. My thorium-coated Asahi Pentax Super-Takumar 1.4/50's maximum diaphragm is effectively widened to an impressive ?/1. On top of that I have in-body image stabilization, good high ISO handling and other features, all at the fraction of the cost. On top of that, I can exchange my lenses with my dedicated ?4/3 Super 16 digital film camera. > I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, as it would allow me to > use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently only use on 35mm film > bodies. > Nothing prevents you from using a full frame lens on a smaller (e.g. APS-C) sensor body. The crop isn't always a negative, sometimes it can change a mediocre tele-photo prime into an excellent one. > Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find > Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the Nikkor > 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. > At ?/5.6 only? Well, that's rough... - MG From js at cimmeri.com Thu Mar 10 21:02:51 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:02:51 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> On 3/10/2016 9:36 PM, Richard Cini wrote: > Separately? John ? the SLUs are at what I think are the standard > addresses and vectors (per the Heathkit and DLV11-J manuals) and the > ODT and TU58EM work. I don?t know what RT-11 is looking for but the > console @ 177560/60 and TU58 @ 176500/300 (Channel 3 and Channel 0 in > DLV11-J parlance). I have not tried booting SIMH with the TU58 image > (not sure how to do that; need to work on it). Regarding getting a > real RX01 or RL02, the issue for me is space. It?s pretty convenient > using a laptop and TU58EM (providing I can get something other than > XXDPD2D to work). If someone has already built bootable TU58 RT-11 > images, I haven?t found them yet. I have doubts that taking an RK05 image, and copying the DD: bootstrap in like that, and then simply taking that modified RK05 image and attempting to boot it as a TU58... I'm not sure if that could work. Just seems like there'd been some structural differences. But I could be wrong. I forget if either SIMH or Ersatz emulates a TU58.. but if they do, try making an empty tape container (I think TU58EM can do this) and then build up and RT11 system as outlined in the manual using one of the emulators. Make sure it can boot in the emulator (if that's possible). Do you know for sure if a real TU58 can even run RT-11? Never tried it. p.s. you could also get yourself a qbus SCSI card, and have a much smaller disk subsystem. - J. From mgariboldi at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:09:50 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 04:09:50 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <2A05EC30-827C-40A2-9ED1-579F9C9E6676@aracnet.com> References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> <2A05EC30-827C-40A2-9ED1-579F9C9E6676@aracnet.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-10 2:53 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > Personally I need a nice ASPH 28mm or 35mm Summicron. I have the original > Nikkon 35mm f/2, one of the very first made, it?s been Ai?d, and it?s an > AMAZING lens. > That Nikon *(*e.g. *Nikkor-HC Auto* I presume?) 2/35 lens is quite good, but if you think it's amazing I don't know if you should shell out for the Leica *Summicron* (considering their typical going prices, even second-hand). It probably won't be worth it for you. If you want something that's close to the *Summicron* in terms of overall performance and in particular sharpness, since you praised Zeiss earlier, why don't you consider a *(C) Biogon *T* 2/35 or even 2.8/35 ZM (Zeiss Ikon/Leica M mount) lens? It's not exactly cheap, but it should perform formidably. - MG From mgariboldi at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:16:22 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 04:16:22 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-11 1:11 GMT+01:00 Fred Cisin : > C-Mount is the standard mount for 16mm movie, and then for TV cameras. > Mostly consumer/prosumer film (depending how far you go back) and, indeed, TV cameras; high(er)-end cinema lenses usually had different mounts. As people often remark: C mount lenses are a minefield. Often you'll find utter and complete junk, especially because it became a de facto 'CCTV lens' mount (along with CS), but there are also some very good quality ones out there. But, beware, there's also the problem of variable sensor coverage. There are many C mount lenses that don't, for instance, cover a 1" sensor. This is problematic for modern-day ?4/3 adaption and usage, unless you don't mind a gigantic vignette... - MG From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Mar 10 21:25:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 22:25:21 -0500 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> Hasselblad did not use tessar. tesar was a good lens but certainly not the hi end ed# In a message dated 3/10/2016 8:01:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mgariboldi at gmail.com writes: 2016-03-10 16:59 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > > > On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the 10 > > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the only > > company with more than one. > > One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C > lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. > Anything made for Hasselblad could hardly be called 'low-end'. (A bit like a 'low-end' SGI, there was basically never such a thing... certainly not in terms of original cost.) The only truly low-end Carl Zeiss optics are probably the *Pentacon* series, made by the post-WW II Carl Zeiss Jena branch of the GDR. Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses on > them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame > sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at > the edges. Which (affordable) lens *doesn't* have imperfect edges, especially completely analog lenses without any in-camera digital correction. (This can also be done afterwards, if one knows the possible distortion values.) The Sony a7-series aren't exactly cheap. More affordable and rather good, too, are ?4/3 cameras, especially in conjunction with a focal reducer, if the crop is too much of an obstruction. I gain an extra stop of light, on top of reducing the crop, with my M42/Praktica thread mount lenses. My thorium-coated Asahi Pentax Super-Takumar 1.4/50's maximum diaphragm is effectively widened to an impressive ?/1. On top of that I have in-body image stabilization, good high ISO handling and other features, all at the fraction of the cost. On top of that, I can exchange my lenses with my dedicated ?4/3 Super 16 digital film camera. > I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, as it would allow me to > use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently only use on 35mm film > bodies. > Nothing prevents you from using a full frame lens on a smaller (e.g. APS-C) sensor body. The crop isn't always a negative, sometimes it can change a mediocre tele-photo prime into an excellent one. > Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find > Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the Nikkor > 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. > At ?/5.6 only? Well, that's rough... - MG From mgariboldi at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 21:31:39 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 04:31:39 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> References: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-11 4:25 GMT+01:00 : > Hasselblad did not use tessar. tesar was a good lens but certainly > not the hi end > ed# > Incorrect. There were various, like the *Tele-Tessar*, which appeared for Hasselblad. (By the way, your messages usually end up in my spam bin. Just so you know...) - MG > In a message dated 3/10/2016 8:01:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > mgariboldi at gmail.com writes: > > 2016-03-10 16:59 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the > 10 > > > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the > only > > > company with more than one. > > > > One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C > > lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. > > > > Anything made for Hasselblad could hardly be called 'low-end'. (A bit > like > a 'low-end' SGI, there was basically never such a thing... certainly not > in > terms of original cost.) > > The only truly low-end Carl Zeiss optics are probably the *Pentacon* > series, made by the post-WW II Carl Zeiss Jena branch of the GDR. > > > Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses > on > > them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame > > sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at > > the edges. > > > Which (affordable) lens *doesn't* have imperfect edges, especially > completely analog lenses without any in-camera digital correction. (This > can also be done afterwards, if one knows the possible distortion values.) > > The Sony a7-series aren't exactly cheap. More affordable and rather good, > too, are ?4/3 cameras, especially in conjunction with a focal reducer, if > the crop is too much of an obstruction. I gain an extra stop of light, on > top of reducing the crop, with my M42/Praktica thread mount lenses. My > thorium-coated Asahi Pentax Super-Takumar 1.4/50's maximum diaphragm is > effectively widened to an impressive ?/1. On top of that I have in-body > image stabilization, good high ISO handling and other features, all at the > fraction of the cost. On top of that, I can exchange my lenses with my > dedicated ?4/3 Super 16 digital film camera. > > > > > I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, as it would allow me > to > > use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently only use on 35mm film > > bodies. > > > > Nothing prevents you from using a full frame lens on a smaller (e.g. > APS-C) > sensor body. The crop isn't always a negative, sometimes it can change a > mediocre tele-photo prime into an excellent one. > > > > > Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find > > Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the > Nikkor > > 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. > > > > At ?/5.6 only? Well, that's rough... > > - MG > From north at alum.mit.edu Thu Mar 10 22:09:49 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:09:49 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> On 3/10/2016 7:02 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > On 3/10/2016 9:36 PM, Richard Cini wrote: >> Separately? John ? the SLUs are at what I think are the standard addresses >> and vectors (per the Heathkit and DLV11-J manuals) and the ODT and TU58EM >> work. I don?t know what RT-11 is looking for but the console @ 177560/60 and >> TU58 @ 176500/300 (Channel 3 and Channel 0 in DLV11-J parlance). I have not >> tried booting SIMH with the TU58 image (not sure how to do that; need to work >> on it). Regarding getting a real RX01 or RL02, the issue for me is space. >> It?s pretty convenient using a laptop and TU58EM (providing I can get >> something other than XXDPD2D to work). If someone has already built bootable >> TU58 RT-11 images, I haven?t found them yet. > > I have doubts that taking an RK05 image, and copying the DD: bootstrap in like > that, and then simply taking that modified RK05 image and attempting to boot > it as a TU58... I'm not sure if that could work. Just seems like there'd been > some structural differences. But I could be wrong. > > I forget if either SIMH or Ersatz emulates a TU58.. but if they do, try making > an empty tape container (I think TU58EM can do this) and then build up and > RT11 system as outlined in the manual using one of the emulators. Make sure > it can boot in the emulator (if that's possible). > > Do you know for sure if a real TU58 can even run RT-11? Never tried it. > > p.s. you could also get yourself a qbus SCSI card, and have a much smaller > disk subsystem. > > - J. > Creating/running an RT-11 image on a TU58 tape, and then booting/running it under TU58EM has been discussed in the past. I would suggest reading thru this thread, as it did succeed in building a bootable TU58 RT-11 image: http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?39372-Wanted-RT-11-OS-as-a-TU-58-image/page2&highlight=tu58em RT-11 can run from a TU58 disk (tape) as demonstrated above, on real PDP-11 hardware. SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. Altho the required serial interface is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the serial interface has never been emulated. Theoretically one could attach the emulated serial port in SIMH to a real serial port that TU58EM is connected to (or use something like comOcom on windows to wire together virtual serial ports) and run TU58EM with SIMH, but I know of noone doing this (I never have, altho I believe it is technically possible to do). I believe that ERSATZ-11 has integrated support for TU58 image support mounting, so that might be the way to go to build a TU58 image under simulation. I have seen rumblings that someone might be working on a virtual TU58 device for SIMH, but maybe it is just an idea at this point for a rainy day. The code would be pretty straightforward I suspect. Don From healyzh at aracnet.com Thu Mar 10 22:31:15 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 20:31:15 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> References: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> Message-ID: <9B4A6C81-CC98-4BA1-8F47-B8B3FBC7A8AD@aracnet.com> > On Mar 10, 2016, at 7:25 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > Hasselblad did not use tessar. tesar was a good lens but certainly > not the hi end > ed# My camera?s with Tessar?s are Rolleiflex TLR?s, not my Hasselblad?s. I got the two I have more for fun than anything, but the one can produce some very impressive results (even the Old Standard can be used to make some really great photo?s). >> One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C >> lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. >> > > Anything made for Hasselblad could hardly be called 'low-end'. (A bit like > a 'low-end' SGI, there was basically never such a thing... certainly not in > terms of original cost.) Again, Rollei, where the Tessar is on the low-end, Planar is on the high-end. And yes, even SGI had a low-end. I have two O2?s, one is low-end, one is high-end, there the difference is the CPU.. >> them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame >> sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at >> the edges. > > > Which (affordable) lens *doesn't* have imperfect edges, especially > completely analog lenses without any in-camera digital correction. (This > can also be done afterwards, if one knows the possible distortion values.) Are you familiar with colour fringing, such as you get with a Voigtlander 15mm f/4.5 lens on a Leica M9? This is the type you get with something like a Leica 24mm Elmarit f/2.8 ASPH on a Sony A7. The nice thing is, fixing it?s now as simple as taking a shot with a piece of frosted glass over the lens, before taking the real shot, thanks to the latest release of Capture One. > The Sony a7-series aren't exactly cheap. More affordable and rather good, > too, are ?4/3 cameras, especially in conjunction with a focal reducer, if > the crop is too much of an obstruction. I gain an extra stop of light, on > top of reducing the crop, with my M42/Praktica thread mount lenses. My > thorium-coated Asahi Pentax Super-Takumar 1.4/50's maximum diaphragm is > effectively widened to an impressive ?/1. On top of that I have in-body > image stabilization, good high ISO handling and other features, all at the > fraction of the cost. On top of that, I can exchange my lenses with my > dedicated ?4/3 Super 16 digital film camera. I like my 50?s to be 50?s, and my wides to be wide. Besides, you get a higher image quality out of a full frame sensor. If I could afford it, I?d be shooting medium format. I have a friend with a Hasselblad H3D, it?s fairly old, but blows away my much newer Nikon D800, and his Canon 1Dx. > Nothing prevents you from using a full frame lens on a smaller (e.g. APS-C) > sensor body. The crop isn't always a negative, sometimes it can change a > mediocre tele-photo prime into an excellent one. I did this in the past. I can get better results shooting my full frame in DX mode, or cropping. >> Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find >> Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the Nikkor >> 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. >> > > At ?/5.6 only? Well, that's rough? Most people will be happy with the 50mm f/1.4G at any aperture. I?m after as close to perfection as I can get. I need to be able to print large if the image is going to be in a Gallery. BTW, there is one other Nikkor lens that I?m totally happy with. That?s the 14-24mm f/2.8 zoom. A truly amazing lens. I wish the same could be said of their 24-70mm f/2.8, it?s total junk, I hope the one they just released is better, but I?ve not had time to try it. The 70-200mm f/2.8 VR II lens is quite nice as well. It pays to know the ?sweet spot? for the lenses you?re shooting with. For most lenses, that?s only 1-2 f-stops. Zane From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 23:26:38 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:26:38 -0600 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19abe5.439dc0df.4411bf5e@aol.com> <56E0AE4E.7050702@btinternet.com> Message-ID: digital backs yea.. if they had one for the pentax 6x7 i woulda keted it but alas i gave up waiting and sold it bought a lens for my nikon d90 lol On Wed, Mar 9, 2016 at 7:25 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > posters! The lens was a Goerz Red Dot Artar and the sharpest flat >>> field lens >>> >> On Wed, 9 Mar 2016, Rod Smallwood wrote: > >> Thanks,, >> Our cam was fitted with a high grade Ziess lens that cost a fortune >> even then, >> > > Zeiss made a lot of lenses, some of which were great. > Goerz made a few of the greatest lenses ever made. > > For personal use, I'm looking for Leitz Summicron in all focal lengths, > and Nikkor 105mm that was made in mid 1960s. > And, if I can ever get a 4x5 digital back, I want a Goerz Dagor. > All out of my price range. > > > From roland.schregle at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 10:50:55 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 17:50:55 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: <01PXNA7IHNGO007J3U@beyondthepale.ie> References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> <01PXNA7IHNGO007J3U@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2016 14:23:34 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> FWIW, here's a thermography (hope the link works) of the B-cache >> section of the KA-675 after being powered up for ca. 30 mins: >> https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nsx1dfngp1jfq5/TH710065.BMP?dl=0 >> >> Note that the rightmost chip just below the CPU heatsink has a pin >> that's ca. 2 degrees warmer than the others. I don't know if that says >> anything, but it *is* reproducible. Maybe I should start with that one. >> > > I can't really make it out on the image but if it is just one pin that is > hot, maybe there is nothing more complicated wrong than a bad solder > joint > at that pin, particularly if it is a power or ground pin. Hi Peter, I've already reworked that pin, but to no avail. :^( I've converted the pic to grayscale for better contrast and highlighted the pin in red: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ss76hldqxziazyc/ka-675-1.png?dl=0 For comparison, here's a thermograph of the 2nd KA-675 with the dead DSSI controller: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8twvrytrr60mrb9/ka-675-2.jpg?dl=0 The artefact doesn't show up on the 2nd board. Might be a long shot tho. I'm not sure a chip failure would even show here. This was more of a lame experiment, since we have the thermal tracer in the lab anyway (and the pix look cool). --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 10 12:32:51 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 18:32:51 -0000 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <00d701d17afb$40fd5820$c2f80860$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctech [mailto:cctech-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dr. > Roland Schregle > Sent: 10 March 2016 12:39 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 > > On Wed, 09 Mar 2016 21:59:27 +0100, Robert Jarratt > wrote: > > > > I think one day I will have to equip myself and learn how to desolder > > and resolder surface mount chips. I don't know how many chips > > implement the B-CACHE, but perhaps you could replace all of them, > > assuming you know which ones they are. Perhaps some careful probing of > > the board with a scope might show if there any chips that are perhaps > completely dead. > > You could do the same for the DSSI controller on the other board of > > course, if you can identify that. > > Our lab has an EE department with some pretty fancy SM gear, I just have to > practice on it (which would come in handy anyway). The B-cache consists of > 18x CY7C166-20 SRAM plus 5x CY7C170A-25 tag RAM, so they're easily > identified (the KA-675 manual infact points them out). > > Replacing 18 SRAMs doesn't sound like a lot of fun, and I have no idea how to > probe the board in the cardcage without disassembling the chassis, in which > case the thing may overheat; opening the CPU bulkhead infact triggers a > prompt reaction from the fan controller. Just powering it on for a few seconds at a time while probing for any really obvious failures would presumably be pretty low risk. Given that the components face to the right though, you might be able to do some probing with just the memory removed? > > FWIW, here's a thermography (hope the link works) of the B-cache section of > the KA-675 after being powered up for ca. 30 mins: > https://www.dropbox.com/s/2nsx1dfngp1jfq5/TH710065.BMP?dl=0 > > Note that the rightmost chip just below the CPU heatsink has a pin that's ca. > 2 degrees warmer than the others. I don't know if that says anything, but it > *is* reproducible. Maybe I should start with that one. Looks like you have access to some enviable stuff, so replacing the chips might not be too bad. I get an occasional error on my 4000-500 at test 14 (also cache related), it doesn't appear to affect operation, but I am worried something is failing that will need replacement. > > The dead DSSI controller on the other board is easily identified, as it was > physically destroyed in transit. I'm not inclined to transplant a 160-pin PGA as > my first foray into SMT... :^\ > > Thanks for the feedback, > > --GT > > > -- > "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] > "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of > memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" > [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 10 14:37:32 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 12:37:32 -0800 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 10, 2016 at 4:23 AM, Dr. Roland Schregle > > Yep, it's in a BA23 with a ridiculously dense Q-Bus. I considered installing > the KZQSA from the 4000 in the 3200, but the edge connectors won't fit even > after removing the panel, plus I read in the list archives that the 3200 > won't boot from it. :^( I just tried an M5976 KZQSA with an M7620 KA650, an M7624 KA640, and an M7625 KA655 CPU. None of them would recognize the M5976 KZQSA as a boot device. I think you need at least an M7626 KA660 CPU or better to recognize a SCSI CD-ROM attached to a M5976 KZQSA as a boot device, where it should normally appear as DKA0. The VAX 4000/200 M7626 KA660 CPU is the last VAX CPU which plugs directly into a Q-Bus slot and you could in theory use it in a BA23 chassis, but wiring up the on board interfaces would take some work without the cab kit for that. I've only seen one of those go buy on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/151768446404 From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Mar 11 00:05:37 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 01:05:37 -0500 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: I wonder if the tele tessar was a true tessar design or just a use of 'the name' ? I have seen snipits in google referring to it being a true telephoto... with a true tessar formula lens IS NOT. ok the norm for the hassleblad was a80 mm f 2.8 planar... in the rolliflex the tessar was the entry level lens... the planar the upgrade. my first 'real' camera was a 1933 rolliflex with a f3.5 tessar. not bad at all but a little soft wide open. I still have this camera. and the low shutter speeds are a little slow but OTW rest is fine.. In HD I bought an argus c3 from my geometry teacher for $8 and used it a lot more shots per roll and would operate eye level and had a pretty good split image rangefinder.. the lens was decent too. when I went in USAF sold the C# to my brother but kept the rolliflex ( wish I had saved both! as the argus shot some of my first press work) adn when in USAF got a SLR. messages in the bin? then add my address to your contact list?! the address In a message dated 3/10/2016 8:31:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, mgariboldi at gmail.com writes: 2016-03-11 4:25 GMT+01:00 : > Hasselblad did not use tessar. tesar was a good lens but certainly > not the hi end > ed# > Incorrect. There were various, like the *Tele-Tessar*, which appeared for Hasselblad. (By the way, your messages usually end up in my bin. Just so you know...) - MG > In a message dated 3/10/2016 8:01:07 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > mgariboldi at gmail.com writes: > > 2016-03-10 16:59 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > > > > > > On Mar 9, 2016, at 11:37 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > > > > > > Popular or Modern Photography 20 or 30 years ago had an article on the > 10 > > > best lens ever made. I think Zeiss made 3 of them, and they were the > only > > > company with more than one. > > > > One of my all time favorite lenses is the Hasselblad 80mm f/2.8 Planar C > > lens made by Zeiss. Even their low-end Tessar lenses are awesome. > > > > Anything made for Hasselblad could hardly be called 'low-end'. (A bit > like > a 'low-end' SGI, there was basically never such a thing... certainly not > in > terms of original cost.) > > The only truly low-end Carl Zeiss optics are probably the *Pentacon* > series, made by the post-WW II Carl Zeiss Jena branch of the GDR. > > > Take a look at the Sony a7 series of bodies, people are using RTS lenses > on > > them. You can put almost anything on them, and they?re a full frame > > sensor. I know that the wider lenses might have some fringing issues at > > the edges. > > > Which (affordable) lens *doesn't* have imperfect edges, especially > completely analog lenses without any in-camera digital correction. (This > can also be done afterwards, if one knows the possible distortion values.) > > The Sony a7-series aren't exactly cheap. More affordable and rather good, > too, are ?4/3 cameras, especially in conjunction with a focal reducer, if > the crop is too much of an obstruction. I gain an extra stop of light, on > top of reducing the crop, with my M42/Praktica thread mount lenses. My > thorium-coated Asahi Pentax Super-Takumar 1.4/50's maximum diaphragm is > effectively widened to an impressive ?/1. On top of that I have in-body > image stabilization, good high ISO handling and other features, all at the > fraction of the cost. On top of that, I can exchange my lenses with my > dedicated ?4/3 Super 16 digital film camera. > > > > > I?ve started looking seriously at the a7 series, as it would allow me > to > > use a lot of lenses I have, that I can currently only use on 35mm film > > bodies. > > > > Nothing prevents you from using a full frame lens on a smaller (e.g. > APS-C) > sensor body. The crop isn't always a negative, sometimes it can change a > mediocre tele-photo prime into an excellent one. > > > > > Since I started shooting more than just Nikon, it?s a lot harder to find > > Nikon lenses I really like. The only AF lens I really like is the > Nikkor > > 50mm f/1.4G, at f/5.6 it can compete with my 50mm Summicron. > > > > At ?/5.6 only? Well, that's rough... > > - MG > From sales at elecplus.com Fri Mar 11 00:23:35 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 00:23:35 -0600 Subject: Free file downloads Message-ID: <004601d17b5e$8b6661a0$a23324e0$@com> I just found this download site. It includes drivers, games, etc., and many programs and drivers for Win NT and up, Linux, and Mac. No spyware or crapware, just good files. Maybe not old compared to a lot of posts here, but there are drivers for many very old cards for very old Win systems. http://www.oldergeeks.com/downloads/index.php Cindy --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From emu at e-bbes.com Fri Mar 11 00:59:30 2016 From: emu at e-bbes.com (emu at e-bbes.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 07:59:30 +0100 Subject: Options for resurrecting VAX 4000/400 and Vaxstation 3200 In-Reply-To: References: <004401d17a3a$10261c80$30725580$@ntlworld.com> <006f01d17a46$91aa46d0$b4fed470$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160311075930.lxjqr47y8wgk4ok0@webmail.opentransfer.com> Zitat von Glen Slick : > I think you need at least an M7626 KA660 CPU or better to recognize a > SCSI CD-ROM attached to a M5976 KZQSA as a boot device, where it > should normally appear as DKA0. The KZQSA is supported only on the 4000 series. The only "real" DEC QBUS Controller was the RQZX1, good luck finding one cheap ;-) Cheers From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 11 01:01:16 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Thu, 10 Mar 2016 23:01:16 -0800 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 10, 2016, at 10:05 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > I wonder if the tele tessar was a true tessar design or just a use > of 'the name' ? I have seen snipits in google referring to it being a true > telephoto... with a true tessar formula lens IS NOT. I think it?s based on the Tessar, but is something different from what?s in the Hasselblad manual. The cross-section is definitely different. There are apparently at least two Tele-Tessar designs, with different numbers of elements. > ok the norm for the hassleblad was a80 mm f 2.8 planar... > > in the rolliflex the tessar was the entry level lens... the planar the > upgrade. > > my first 'real' camera was a 1933 rolliflex with a f3.5 tessar. not > bad at all but a little soft wide open. > I still have this camera. and the low shutter speeds are a little > slow but OTW rest is fine.. > In HD I bought an argus c3 from my geometry teacher for $8 and > used it a lot more shots per roll and would operate eye level and > had a pretty good split image rangefinder.. the lens was decent too. > > when I went in USAF sold the C# to my brother but kept the > rolliflex ( wish I had saved both! as the argus shot some of my first > press work) adn when in USAF got a SLR. I?ve not been able to justify the cost of a Planar Rolleiflex, though I?d really love one with a nice f/2.8 Planar lens. Both of mine have the 75mm f/3.5 Tessar. The older of my two is from 1936, the newer from about 1958. For me the Rollei is more of a small lightweight travel camera, or shooting for fun, than a serious camera. Sort of a ?getting back to my roots? sort of thing, as I started with a Yashica 44LM TLR. What I really need to do is spend the money and get my Hasselblad?s 80mm f/2.8 Planar C CLA?d, as the shutter on it isn?t accurate (or fast) at any speed. :-( It?s my "serious work" Medium Format camera. Zane From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Fri Mar 11 01:32:31 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 02:32:31 -0500 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 Message-ID: I saved one hassie from my photo era before the computer business and after USAF I was a commercial photog. I used ELM's for fashon work and had a couple of cms and a SWC wideangle fixed lens one.... I kept one c w/ 80m mm and a 150 mm and a few backs .... things used to be worth a lot but not so anymore... I may take my c over to the university to add to our SMECC museums tools of the journalist display we have there... Better used there than sitting in my desk drawer at the office...I have a kodak/nikon AP early digital camera I need to take over there too. Pretty funny the reason I got a computer in '79 which led to me getting into the computer biz was to keep a database of photos and transparencies I had for stock photo use. The lure of getting back into electronics and the new era of affordable small computers lured me in ! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/11/2016 12:07:46 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, healyzh at aracnet.com writes: > On Mar 10, 2016, at 10:05 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > I wonder if the tele tessar was a true tessar design or just a use > of 'the name' ? I have seen snipits in google referring to it being a true > telephoto... with a true tessar formula lens IS NOT. I think it?s based on the Tessar, but is something different from what?s in the Hasselblad manual. The cross-section is definitely different. There are apparently at least two Tele-Tessar designs, with different numbers of elements. > ok the norm for the hassleblad was a80 mm f 2.8 planar... > > in the rolliflex the tessar was the entry level lens... the planar the > upgrade. > > my first 'real' camera was a 1933 rolliflex with a f3.5 tessar. not > bad at all but a little soft wide open. > I still have this camera. and the low shutter speeds are a little > slow but OTW rest is fine.. > In HD I bought an argus c3 from my geometry teacher for $8 and > used it a lot more shots per roll and would operate eye level and > had a pretty good split image rangefinder.. the lens was decent too. > > when I went in USAF sold the C# to my brother but kept the > rolliflex ( wish I had saved both! as the argus shot some of my first > press work) adn when in USAF got a SLR. I?ve not been able to justify the cost of a Planar Rolleiflex, though I?d really love one with a nice f/2.8 Planar lens. Both of mine have the 75mm f/3.5 Tessar. The older of my two is from 1936, the newer from about 1958. For me the Rollei is more of a small lightweight travel camera, or shooting for fun, than a serious camera. Sort of a ?getting back to my roots? sort of thing, as I started with a Yashica 44LM TLR. What I really need to do is spend the money and get my Hasselblad?s 80mm f/2.8 Planar C CLA?d, as the shutter on it isn?t accurate (or fast) at any speed. :-( It?s my "serious work" Medium Format camera. Zane From j_hoppe at t-online.de Fri Mar 11 02:29:58 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 09:29:58 +0100 Subject: SimH & Panels: new BlinkenBone release Message-ID: <56E28206.6090404@t-online.de> Hi, the BlinkenBone project made much progress last months. ("BlinkenBone" is this "connect physical and simulated panels to SimH" thing). New features: - a PDP-8/I front panel Java simulation. http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/248-blinkenbone-simulated-pdp8i-panel http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/simulated-panels/251-blinkenbone-playing-with-the-pdp8i The PDP-8/I SimH extension needs validation against a physical machine. - Oscar Vermeulen's PiDP8 can be connected as panel. http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone/blinkenbone-physical-panels/249-pidp8-as-blinkenbone-panel - most Java panels can now be 2400 pixels width (monitors keep growing) - Repackaging: Precompiled distributions at https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone/releases There are distributions for Win32, Ubuntu 32/64, and RaspberryPi Raspbian. A single distribution contains now all simulations (PDP-11/40, 11/70, PDP-10 KI10 and PDP-8/I). - Ported from SimH 3.8 to v4.x. I'm back! - Sources on GitHub at https://github.com/j-hoppe/BlinkenBone.git Since the BlinkenBone projects expands beyond expectation, the web doc is completely reordered (== trashed?) Not all content is stable yet and links will float, rely on http://retrocmp.com/projects/blinkenbone at the moment. There's also the shortcut www.blinkenbone.com . As always, error feedback is welcome! have fun, Joerg From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 05:09:20 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:09:20 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <6C46892C-8ACE-4037-A118-CD4E11387DFE@verizon.net> Thanks Don. I did read that thread previously but I will do so again in case I missed a finer point in it. Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 10, 2016, at 11:09 PM, Don North wrote: > >> On 3/10/2016 7:02 PM, js at cimmeri.com wrote: >>> On 3/10/2016 9:36 PM, Richard Cini wrote: >>> Separately? John ? the SLUs are at what I think are the standard addresses and vectors (per the Heathkit and DLV11-J manuals) and the ODT and TU58EM work. I don?t know what RT-11 is looking for but the console @ 177560/60 and TU58 @ 176500/300 (Channel 3 and Channel 0 in DLV11-J parlance). I have not tried booting SIMH with the TU58 image (not sure how to do that; need to work on it). Regarding getting a real RX01 or RL02, the issue for me is space. It?s pretty convenient using a laptop and TU58EM (providing I can get something other than XXDPD2D to work). If someone has already built bootable TU58 RT-11 images, I haven?t found them yet. >> >> I have doubts that taking an RK05 image, and copying the DD: bootstrap in like that, and then simply taking that modified RK05 image and attempting to boot it as a TU58... I'm not sure if that could work. Just seems like there'd been some structural differences. But I could be wrong. >> >> I forget if either SIMH or Ersatz emulates a TU58.. but if they do, try making an empty tape container (I think TU58EM can do this) and then build up and RT11 system as outlined in the manual using one of the emulators. Make sure it can boot in the emulator (if that's possible). >> >> Do you know for sure if a real TU58 can even run RT-11? Never tried it. >> >> p.s. you could also get yourself a qbus SCSI card, and have a much smaller disk subsystem. >> >> - J. > > Creating/running an RT-11 image on a TU58 tape, and then booting/running it under TU58EM has been > discussed in the past. I would suggest reading thru this thread, as it did succeed in building a bootable > TU58 RT-11 image: > > http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?39372-Wanted-RT-11-OS-as-a-TU-58-image/page2&highlight=tu58em > > RT-11 can run from a TU58 disk (tape) as demonstrated above, on real PDP-11 hardware. > > SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. Altho the required serial interface > is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the serial interface has never been emulated. > > Theoretically one could attach the emulated serial port in SIMH to a real serial port that TU58EM is connected to > (or use something like comOcom on windows to wire together virtual serial ports) and run TU58EM with SIMH, > but I know of noone doing this (I never have, altho I believe it is technically possible to do). > > I believe that ERSATZ-11 has integrated support for TU58 image support mounting, so that might be the way > to go to build a TU58 image under simulation. > > I have seen rumblings that someone might be working on a virtual TU58 device for SIMH, but maybe it is just > an idea at this point for a rainy day. The code would be pretty straightforward I suspect. > > Don From mgariboldi at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 05:44:33 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:44:33 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <9B4A6C81-CC98-4BA1-8F47-B8B3FBC7A8AD@aracnet.com> References: <6166.7863fee8.441394a1@aol.com> <9B4A6C81-CC98-4BA1-8F47-B8B3FBC7A8AD@aracnet.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-11 5:31 GMT+01:00 Zane Healy : > Again, Rollei, where the Tessar is on the low-end, Planar is on the > high-end. And yes, even SGI had a low-end. I have two O2?s, one is > low-end, one is high-end, there the difference is the CPU.. > Nobody in his right mind would've called a(n originally) US$ 17000~20000 costing O2 'low-end', just because it was *relatively speaking* one of the _cheaper offerings_ of SGI. Neither did companies treat it as low-end, as Discreet, SGO and other big names certified the O2 for turn-key usage, like as an Effect (later: Spark) compositing turn-key system. I can assure you, those didn't have low-end price tags either, at all! > Are you familiar with colour fringing, such as you get with a Voigtlander > 15mm f/4.5 lens on a Leica M9? I'm not a millionaire or an pensioned old man, I haven't owned any Leica camera bodies. But I've heard and read rather 'mixed' things about Cosina-Voigtl?nder lenses, yes. I like my 50?s to be 50?s, and my wides to be wide. Your wallet better be wide, too. It comes at a considerable premium... > Besides, you get a higher image quality out of a full frame sensor. This is entirely subjective, it has nothing to do with the quality of pictures. There's also an entire and growing community of ?4/3 users that will happily disagree... and who didn't have to spend a small fortune either, to get where they are. > If I could afford it, I?d be shooting medium format. You'll get kicked out of most places with such a monstrosity in your hands, being asked for journalistic credentials, permits and such. If that's no problem for you, along with portability, I guess it might work out for you. (Especially if money also grows on your back, unless you're doing this professionally.) > I have a friend with a Hasselblad H3D, it?s fairly old, but blows away my > much newer Nikon D800, and his Canon 1Dx. > I saw tests that actually showed the contrary. But I guess the average Hasselblad chump isn't willing to admit it, after having had to sell his car in order to be able to afford one. > Most people will be happy with the 50mm f/1.4G at any aperture. I?m after > as close to perfection as I can get. Can you show some of your examples? Also, what's the point of buying a lens with a fairly wide aperture if it's only usable stopped down so much? (Were you aware of this prior to buying it?) Most experienced photographers would even think twice before buying such a lens at all, if having been aware prior to purchasing it. > BTW, there is one other Nikkor lens that I?m totally happy with. That?s > the 14-24mm f/2.8 zoom. A truly amazing lens. Is that a kit lens? - MG From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 05:46:00 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:46:00 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK Message-ID: Folks, We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! Deadline is late next week so thurs/fri 17/18th. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Fri Mar 11 05:42:49 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:42:49 +0000 (WET) Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 08 Mar 2016 23:02:46 -0800" <621142BD-A2A6-4202-8A6D-86FA8BC0FA03@nf6x.net> References: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PXONJF9ZWS00CJF2@beyondthepale.ie> > > > If you get TCP/IP networking like Multinet (ie not like CMUIP) running, you > > should be able to use FTP, rcp or maybe even TFTP to move a VMS BACKUP save > > set to another system. The snag is you need enough scratch space to create > > the saveset on the 11/730 before you transfer it. > > Well, there's the problem: I don't have scratch space, since all of the hard > drives are precisely what I want to image. Another option I forgot is that if you have Multinet installed, it can do RMT (remote tape over TCP/IP) which VMS BACKUP can use to write to a tape drive on a remote system. I don't know if the other TCP/IP stacks for VMS can do RMT but I'm pretty sure CMUIP can't. However, if you don't already have a suitable TCP/IP stack installed, it's going to equally difficult to get it installed as to do the backup. > > C-Kermit for VMS might be able to do this - I can't recall. > > Getting it onto the machine in the first place might be a challenge! > I think C-Kermit and/or the earlier Kermit-32 for VMS came with some sort of minimal hex loader which can be typed in to cope with this issue. > > I can boot either 7.3 from the R80 fixed drive, or 5.2 from an RL02 pack. So > in theory, I should be able to boot from each of them to image the other. > There might be TCP/IP support on the 7.3 installation, but I doubt there's > any TCP/IP support on the 5.2. I hope that the DECNET support is there on > both installations for the ethernet card. > > I set up a VM on my Mac running Ubuntu with DECNET support installed. > Despite being orphaned several years ago, it still seems to run. So I think > that trying to bring up DECNET on the VAX might give me options. I was > thinking that if nothing else, if I can log into the VAX remotely via DECNET > and log the terminal output, then maybe I could just DUMP a foreign-mounted > volume and then write some throw-away program to transmogrify the hex dump > into a block-level image. It would be slow, but I hope it would at least be > quite a bit faster than dumping over an async serial port. > > If I can write a file from the VAX to that Ubuntu VM via DECNET, then maybe I > can just COPY a foreign-mounted volume to a file on the VM. I don't know what > capabilities the Linux DECNET support gives me yet, but if I can do this then > that should be a good option. I wonder if I can image tapes that way, too? > COPY will give up if it encounters a bad block on the disk and it will also be difficult to ensure the resulting image is a valid copy of the disk. BACKUP to a saveset over DECnet will keep going despite errors and will also include extra overhead to allow the integrity of the saveset to be verified in case it gets damaged later. Using BACKUP will also allow restores of particular files to be done if required rather than having to restore the whole disk even if only a small number of files are damaged or inadvertently deleted. > > Clustering is pretty simple when you know how but if you don't want to get into > > configuring a cluster, a DECnet connected system or emulated system would > > probably be the way to go. Configuring DECnet on VMS can be done very easily > > with surprisingly little understanding of what is going on and is less > > invasive than configuring a cluster. > > You had me at "surprisingly little understanding of what is going on"! This > sounds like the thing for me to try next. > Configuring (phase IV) DECnet is as simple as giving the command: $ @SYS$MANAGER:NETCONFIG and answering the questions. Suitable default answers should be provided for most of the questions and this is why little understanding of what is going on is required :-) Don't worry about not understanding the long list of commands it comes up with to carry out the configuration either. You can try the above just to see the questions and then answer "NO" at the end when it asks if you want the commands to be executed. If DECnet is already installed, it is probably already configured and the best thing to do would be to configure the Ubuntu end to suit. Give it a different DECnet node address in the same DECnet area. DECnet on VMS needs a license to be loaded, at least on the V7.3 system. Do a: $ SHOW LICENSE and look for DVNETEND, DVNETRTG or DVNETEXT. VMS hobbyist licenses can be used. > > On VMS, any file, including a BACKUP saveset can be specified as being located > > on a remote DECnet node, so it is possible to run BACKUP on your 11/730 and have > > the output saveset situated on a different VAX / Alpha / Itanium / emulated > > system running VMS or on a unix or other system capable of running DECnet well, > > (ultrix?), even a PC/Macintosh running DOS/Windows/Macos and DEC Pathworks. > > That sounds very promising! A possible issue with BACKUP is that it will want the saveset to have a particular fixed record length and it might not cope if the remote filesystem does not support this and the remote DECnet implementation does not have a way to simulate it. It would be good to make sure it works by backing up a small group of files to a saveset on the your Ubuntu system and then verifying that BACKUP on the VMS system is happy to read the remote saveset and list the files in it. > > Thanks for all of the suggestions! I still have a lot of learning curve to > climb in the VMS world. > Send me an email if you need more details on any of the above. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Fri Mar 11 08:22:59 2016 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 08:22:59 -0600 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:44:50PM -0500, Michael Kerpan wrote: > When Multics was officially released as free software a couple of > years ago, there was a flurry of activity aimed at getting some sort > of emulator up and running to run it. Did anything ever come of that > or did folks just lose interest (or find out that the needed > GE/Honeywell hardware was too poorly-documented to write an emulator > of) I hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list might be interested in it. Using the files from the QuickStart_MR12.6d.zip archive I managed to boot Multics yesterday. The README file in that archive describes how to boot the system and sign on as Repair.SysAdmin, but not much else. I'd never touched a Multics system before, and didn't have time yesterday to get to know the system. Does anyone know of any Multics How-Tos, especially how to shut Multics down properly? -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 08:57:54 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 06:57:54 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Wed, Nov 11, 2009 at 01:44:50PM -0500, Michael Kerpan wrote: > > > When Multics was officially released as free software a couple of > > years ago, there was a flurry of activity aimed at getting some sort > > of emulator up and running to run it. Did anything ever come of that > > or did folks just lose interest (or find out that the needed > > GE/Honeywell hardware was too poorly-documented to write an emulator > > of) > > I hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I > discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: > > https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ > > is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list > might be interested in it. > > Using the files from the QuickStart_MR12.6d.zip archive I managed to boot > Multics yesterday. The README file in that archive describes how to boot > the system and sign on as Repair.SysAdmin, but not much else. I'd never > touched a Multics system before, and didn't have time yesterday to get to > know the system. Does anyone know of any Multics How-Tos, especially how > to > shut Multics down properly? > > > On the console: ESC (The ATTN key) logout * * (SHuts down the daemons) When it prompts (->) again, hit ESC to release the console. You should 6 or so messages about daemons logging out. When the messages stop: ESC shut If it asks if it's okay to shut down: y You should see messages, ending with 'bce>' (Boot Command Environment, the long lost ancestor of GRUB). ESC die y Depending on the startup script, you may then see the simh prompt 'simh>' q Multics today: http://ringzero.wikidot.com/ Multics FAQ Multics Cheat Sheet Multicians -- Charles > From captainkirk359 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:22:30 2016 From: captainkirk359 at gmail.com (Christian Gauger-Cosgrove) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 11:22:30 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham wrote: > We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full bookcase > of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take them away? Must > admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't realise there was a shelf > of RSTS manuals! > I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What version of the operating systems? And are they manuals that are already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? Regards, Christian -- Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove STCKON08DS0 Contact information available upon request. From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 10:50:48 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:50:48 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which version of VMS? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian > Gauger-Cosgrove > Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > wrote: > > We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full > > bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take them > > away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't realise > > there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > > > I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What version of the > operating systems? And are they manuals that are already on BitSavers, if > they're not please scan them? > > Regards, > Christian > -- > Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > STCKON08DS0 > Contact information available upon request. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 11 11:39:39 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 17:39:39 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which version of > VMS? > > Dave They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. A > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian >> Gauger-Cosgrove >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, >> Newmarket UK >> >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham >> wrote: >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take them >>> away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't realise >>> there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! >>> >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What version of >> the >> operating systems? And are they manuals that are already on BitSavers, if >> they're not please scan them? >> >> Regards, >> Christian >> -- >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove >> STCKON08DS0 >> Contact information available upon request. > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 11 11:54:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 12:54:54 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2016, at 12:39 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > >> How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which version of >> VMS? >> >> Dave > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. RSTS V4 (from 1973) is from the white binder era. Then came blue, then gray, then "chinese red" if I remember the order correctly. Maybe the last two are swapped. So gray would suggest a fairly late version, perhaps V8 or so. Still definitely interesting and potentially worth scanning; bitsavers only has a few versions and the differences can be significant. paul From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 11 12:10:49 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 18:10:49 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> I know nothing about RSTS and RSX, how many shelf-feet are we talking? A handful of DECdirect would be nice too. Not sure what SOC refers to though? Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 11 March 2016 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which > > version of VMS? > > > > Dave > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > A > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > >> Newmarket UK > >> > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > >> wrote: > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full > >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take > >>> them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't > >>> realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > >>> > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What > >> version of the operating systems? And are they manuals that are > >> already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Christian > >> -- > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > >> STCKON08DS0 > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? From mattislind at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 12:26:56 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:26:56 +0100 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: > > SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. > Altho the required serial interface > is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the > serial interface has never been emulated. > > > I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 sim> set tdc enable sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk TDC: creating new file TDC: buffering file in memory sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk sim> b rq0 RT-11SJ V05.03 .init dd0: DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y .copy dd.sys dd0: Files copied: DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS **** Copying some files ***** .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: Files copied: DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: .boot dd0: RT-11SJ V05.03 .dir DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 8 Files, 188 Blocks 316 Free blocks .boot du0: RT-11SJ V05.03 . Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) sim> exit Goodbye TDC: writing buffer to file PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 sim> set tdc enable sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk TDC: buffering file in memory sim> b tdc0 Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) sim> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a bootable RK0: which works just fine. Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: E11>assign tt1: dda: E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk E11>b tt1: RT-11SJ V05.03 .dir TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 7 Files, 158 Blocks 346 Free blocks . This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the real hardware. BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC enabled. /Mattis > Don > From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 12:35:46 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 13:35:46 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: Mattis -- thanks! I'll check this out in detail when I get home tonight and I'll give it a try. Rich Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >> Altho the required serial interface >> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >> serial interface has never been emulated. > I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to > enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into > RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. > Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a > RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. > > MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: creating new file > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk > sim> b rq0 > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .init dd0: > DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y > > .copy dd.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS > **** Copying some files ***** > > > .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS > > .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: > .boot dd0: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 > SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 > DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 > DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 > 8 Files, 188 Blocks > 316 Free blocks > > .boot du0: > > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > . > > Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) > sim> exit > Goodbye > TDC: writing buffer to file > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> b tdc0 > > > Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) > sim> > > I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. > The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a > bootable RK0: which works just fine. > > > Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: > > E11>assign tt1: dda: > E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk > E11>b tt1: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 > RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 > STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 > RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 > 7 Files, 158 Blocks > 346 Free blocks > > . > > > This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz > Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the > real hardware. > > BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had > problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I > remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC > enabled. > > /Mattis > > > >> Don >> From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 13:19:39 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:19:39 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by SIMH without the below error. I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I get home tonight: DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). Rich Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >> Altho the required serial interface >> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >> serial interface has never been emulated. > I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to > enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into > RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. > Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a > RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. > > MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: creating new file > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk > sim> b rq0 > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .init dd0: > DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y > > .copy dd.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS > **** Copying some files ***** > > > .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS > > .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: > .boot dd0: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 > SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 > DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 > DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 > 8 Files, 188 Blocks > 316 Free blocks > > .boot du0: > > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > . > > Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) > sim> exit > Goodbye > TDC: writing buffer to file > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> b tdc0 > > > Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) > sim> > > I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. > The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a > bootable RK0: which works just fine. > > > Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: > > E11>assign tt1: dda: > E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk > E11>b tt1: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 > RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 > STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 > RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 > 7 Files, 158 Blocks > 346 Free blocks > > . > > > This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz > Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the > real hardware. > > BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had > problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I > remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC > enabled. > > /Mattis > > > >> Don >> From Gary at realtimecomp.com Fri Mar 11 13:22:38 2016 From: Gary at realtimecomp.com (Gary L. Messick) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:22:38 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com>, Message-ID: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924388E7FA@SERVER.RealTime.local> Rich, If you need to disable the LTC interrupt, it's a jumper wire located on the top (solder side) of the power supply. It originally came as two single pin socket type things with a wire jumper-ed between them. When I previously asked whether it had two or three switches on the front, later models moved it to the front panel. Also, I vaguely remember issues with booting HT-11 with the LTC enabled. I believe you could re-enabled it after booting, but that would be a ~40 year old memory! Gary ________________________________________ From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net] Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:35 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 Mattis -- thanks! I'll check this out in detail when I get home tonight and I'll give it a try. Rich Sent from my iPhone On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >> Altho the required serial interface >> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >> serial interface has never been emulated. > I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to > enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into > RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. > Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a > RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. > > MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: creating new file > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk > sim> b rq0 > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .init dd0: > DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y > > .copy dd.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS > **** Copying some files ***** > > > .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: > Files copied: > DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS > > .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: > .boot dd0: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 > SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 > DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 > DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 > 8 Files, 188 Blocks > 316 Free blocks > > .boot du0: > > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > . > > Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) > sim> exit > Goodbye > TDC: writing buffer to file > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk > TDC: buffering file in memory > sim> b tdc0 > > > Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) > sim> > > I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. > The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a > bootable RK0: which works just fine. > > > Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: > > E11>assign tt1: dda: > E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk > E11>b tt1: > > RT-11SJ V05.03 > > .dir > > TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 > RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 > STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 > RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 > 7 Files, 158 Blocks > 346 Free blocks > > . > > > This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz > Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the > real hardware. > > BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had > problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I > remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC > enabled. > > /Mattis > > > >> Don >> From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 11 13:39:13 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:39:13 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > > I know nothing about RSTS and RSX, how many shelf-feet are we talking? A > handful of DECdirect would be nice too. Not sure what SOC refers to though? RSTS V4 is 2 or 3 manuals (two binders); eventually it grew to be maybe 10 or so. Less than two feet, significantly less than VMS. paul From rich.cini at verizon.net Fri Mar 11 13:41:49 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:41:49 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924388E7FA@SERVER.RealTime.local> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <7C50B232F5F846458EF50BC72C98A8924388E7FA@SERVER.RealTime.local> Message-ID: Gary -- that must be what the other switch is for. I haven't yet unmounted the PS board to see what the switch was connected to, only having recently gotten the schematic. I'll make sure the switch is off (I think it may be on). The schematic has an unlabeled jumper "J" which is shown connected. The related transistor connects to the BEVENT signal on the backplane so that must be the LTC. Aha! Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 11, 2016, at 2:22 PM, Gary L. Messick wrote: > > Rich, > > If you need to disable the LTC interrupt, it's a jumper wire located on the top (solder side) of the power supply. It originally came as two single pin socket type things with a wire jumper-ed between them. When I previously asked whether it had two or three switches on the front, later models moved it to the front panel. > > Also, I vaguely remember issues with booting HT-11 with the LTC enabled. I believe you could re-enabled it after booting, but that would be a ~40 year old memory! > > Gary > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk [cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] on behalf of Richard Cini [rich.cini at verizon.net] > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:35 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 > > Mattis -- thanks! I'll check this out in detail when I get home tonight and I'll give it a try. > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> >>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>> Altho the required serial interface >>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>> serial interface has never been emulated. >> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >> >> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >> TDC: creating new file >> TDC: buffering file in memory >> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >> sim> b rq0 >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .init dd0: >> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >> >> .copy dd.sys dd0: >> Files copied: >> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >> **** Copying some files ***** >> >> >> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >> Files copied: >> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >> >> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >> .boot dd0: >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .dir >> >> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >> 316 Free blocks >> >> .boot du0: >> >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> . >> >> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >> sim> exit >> Goodbye >> TDC: writing buffer to file >> >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >> TDC: buffering file in memory >> sim> b tdc0 >> >> >> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >> sim> >> >> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >> >> >> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >> >> E11>assign tt1: dda: >> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >> E11>b tt1: >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .dir >> >> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >> 346 Free blocks >> >> . >> >> >> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >> real hardware. >> >> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >> enabled. >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> >>> Don > > > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 11 13:44:25 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:44:25 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E32019.7010008@ntlworld.com> On 11/03/16 17:54, Paul Koning wrote: > RSTS V4 (from 1973) is from the white binder era. Then came blue, then > gray, then "chinese red" if I remember the order correctly. Maybe the > last two are swapped. So gray would suggest a fairly late version, > perhaps V8 or so. Still definitely interesting and potentially worth > scanning; bitsavers only has a few versions and the differences can be > significant. paul In VMS-land "Chinese Red" was V4 and whatever-grey-was-called was V5. V3 was (iirc) a blue of some sort. I assume that RSTS would have been in the same chronological order. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From arcarlini at iee.org Fri Mar 11 13:52:34 2016 From: arcarlini at iee.org (Antonio Carlini) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:52:34 +0000 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56E32202.50101@iee.org> On 09/03/16 20:44, devin davison wrote: > I do not know much at all about what it would take to compile this > into a working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the > library and get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting > everything i scan up online. The last set of microfiche I have is V4.something. I think V5 is where they went to CD, but my earliest source listings are V6.2. Scanning the fiche is a good thing to do, but turning that into a real digital format (i.e. a text file) will, I suspect, be something of a challenge. At one stage I thought I read that someone had gathered up all the old listings and put them on CD. Whether that's survived inside DEC ... err ... HP (or maybe even VMS Software Inc.) I have no idea. It will be interesting to see, in years to come, whether the microfiche survives longer than the listings CDs. My expectation is that the fiche will last longer than the CDs, that the CDs will last longer than the last working CD reader, that the fiche will be trivially readable hundreds of years from now (since a reader is fairly low tech) and (probably) the contents of the listings CDs will be readable forever (once they make it onto the internet ...) Antonio From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 13:51:18 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 14:51:18 -0500 Subject: Free file downloads References: <004601d17b5e$8b6661a0$a23324e0$@com> Message-ID: <5ADBA802007041E381570F2BE8D1489F@310e2> Thank you! m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cindy Croxton" To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:23 AM Subject: Free file downloads >I just found this download site. It includes drivers, games, etc., and many > programs and drivers for Win NT and up, Linux, and Mac. No spyware or > crapware, just good files. > > Maybe not old compared to a lot of posts here, but there are drivers for > many very old cards for very old Win systems. > > http://www.oldergeeks.com/downloads/index.php > > > > Cindy > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 14:33:43 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:33:43 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 11 March 2016 17:40 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which > > version of VMS? > > > > Dave > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > I think it was Rob that visited, I have just installed VMS 5.5 on a MicroVax3100 which I think came from you (perhaps Rob). There doesn't seem to be a proper set of manuals on the net anywhere so they would be very useful. How many feet of VMS manuals are there? Dave G4UGM > A > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > >> Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > >> Newmarket UK > >> > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > >> wrote: > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full > >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take > >>> them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't > >>> realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > >>> > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What > >> version of the operating systems? And are they manuals that are > >> already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Christian > >> -- > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > >> STCKON08DS0 > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Fri Mar 11 14:41:59 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:41:59 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: If we can arrange for the manuals to be saved I am happy to scan them in and make them available to bitsavers. After that I am happy for them to go to whoever wants the paper copies. Maybe at the next DEC Legacy (which it looks like will be some time in October now)! Regards, Mark On 11 Mar 2016 20:33, "Dave G4UGM" wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > > Graham > > Sent: 11 March 2016 17:40 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > Newmarket UK > > > > > > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which > > > version of VMS? > > > > > > Dave > > > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited > otherwise > > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably > be > > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > > > I think it was Rob that visited, I have just installed VMS 5.5 on a > MicroVax3100 which I think came from you (perhaps Rob). > There doesn't seem to be a proper set of manuals on the net anywhere so > they > would be very useful. > How many feet of VMS manuals are there? > > Dave > G4UGM > > > > A > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > >> Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > >> > > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > >> Newmarket UK > > >> > > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > > >> wrote: > > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full > > >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take > > >>> them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't > > >>> realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > > >>> > > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What > > >> version of the operating systems? And are they manuals that are > > >> already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > > >> > > >> Regards, > > >> Christian > > >> -- > > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > > >> STCKON08DS0 > > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > > > > -- > > Adrian/Witchy > > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > > collection? > > > > > From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 14:50:13 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 15:50:13 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> SOC is the DEC "Systems and Options Catalog" Great stuff for research on when parts were available, what options were considered supported for systems and all around good times. They were usually thick (200-300 pages at least in the later VAX era) and came out quarterly (?). Would be a handful to scan, but oh so nice to have. John H. Reinhardt On 3/11/2016 1:10 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I know nothing about RSTS and RSX, how many shelf-feet are we talking? A > handful of DECdirect would be nice too. Not sure what SOC refers to though? > > Regards > > Rob From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 15:03:44 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:03:44 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> On 3/9/2016 3:44 PM, devin davison wrote: > I do not know much at all about what it would take to compile this into a > working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library and > get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up > online. > If by "working system" you mean a fully functional (Open)VMS, then you won't. The source code listings on fiche (or CD/DVD) contain the compiler listings for many parts of Open)VMS, but not all. They also don't have the utilities needed in the highly complex toolchain that is used to create a working (Open)VMS system. They were meant for those who do device driver and internal support to be able to find areas in the code to debug. They were not meant to be able to build a working system. If you want to know how a certain system service works or device driver or utility, they are great. Thank you in advance for putting it online (although it's possible HP might have something to say about it, but given the version, hopefully not). > If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone can spare that would be > great, I was unaware any newer versions of the source code were distributed > on newer formats such as CD. As others have said, (although I think it was V6.0 that started CD, but I could be quite wrong) the current format for source listings is CD (DVD for the 8.x IA64). I have several from my stint at HP (as an Oracle DBA contractor, unfortunately not in OpenVMS support but you'd be surprised at how cheap you can buy things as an employee.) > --Devin John H. Reinhardt From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 11 15:05:58 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:05:58 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 11, 2016, at 3:50 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > SOC is the DEC "Systems and Options Catalog" Great stuff for research on when parts were available, what options were considered supported for systems and all around good times. They were usually thick (200-300 pages at least in the later VAX era) and came out quarterly (?). Would be a handful to scan, but oh so nice to have. You mean the Option/Module List, from Dick Best? There are a number of issues of that (1973 to 1975, and one from 1983) on Bitsavers already. An issue close to those dates is perhaps not all that interesting; one from a significantly different date would be quite a find. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 11 15:27:08 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:27:08 +0000 Subject: Panels Update - Shipment Alert Message-ID: <56E3382C.8080105@btinternet.com> Hi Guys A shipment of PDP-8/e (A and B) panels went out to-day. Tracking numbers will be sent to customers on Monday Next up 8/f and 8/m. New orders for PDP-8/e (A and B) , 8/f and 8/m will be accepted when we have free stock. Rod Smallwood From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 15:31:51 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:31:51 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56E33947.5070505@yahoo.com> On 3/11/2016 4:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 3:50 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >> >> SOC is the DEC "Systems and Options Catalog" Great stuff for research on when parts were available, what options were considered supported for systems and all around good times. They were usually thick (200-300 pages at least in the later VAX era) and came out quarterly (?). Would be a handful to scan, but oh so nice to have. > > You mean the Option/Module List, from Dick Best? There are a number of issues of that (1973 to 1975, and one from 1983) on Bitsavers already. An issue close to those dates is perhaps not all that interesting; one from a significantly different date would be quite a find. > > paul > > > These were catalogs from DEC. Here's one example that I did find on Bitsavers There might be more of them available than I had thought... I didn't know about the lists from Dick Best. I will have to check them out. John H. Reinhardt From paulkoning at comcast.net Fri Mar 11 15:40:38 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:40:38 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <56E33947.5070505@yahoo.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> <56E33947.5070505@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <6F32ACB1-82E5-4FB5-88D4-6272E26BD176@comcast.net> > On Mar 11, 2016, at 4:31 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > > On 3/11/2016 4:05 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 3:50 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: >>> >>> SOC is the DEC "Systems and Options Catalog" Great stuff for research on when parts were available, what options were considered supported for systems and all around good times. They were usually thick (200-300 pages at least in the later VAX era) and came out quarterly (?). Would be a handful to scan, but oh so nice to have. >> >> You mean the Option/Module List, from Dick Best? There are a number of issues of that (1973 to 1975, and one from 1983) on Bitsavers already. An issue close to those dates is perhaps not all that interesting; one from a significantly different date would be quite a find. > > These were catalogs from DEC. Here's one example that I did find on Bitsavers > > There might be more of them available than I had thought... > > I didn't know about the lists from Dick Best. I will have to check them out. Sounds different then. The Option/Module List was an internal DEC document, not something meant for outsiders to see. paul From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Fri Mar 11 15:49:00 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 16:49:00 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <6F32ACB1-82E5-4FB5-88D4-6272E26BD176@comcast.net> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <017e01d17bc1$57cc33c0$07649b40$@ntlworld.com> <56E32F85.8040707@yahoo.com> <56E33947.5070505@yahoo.com> <6F32ACB1-82E5-4FB5-88D4-6272E26BD176@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56E33D4C.6030409@yahoo.com> On 3/11/2016 4:40 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > Sounds different then. The Option/Module List was an internal DEC document, not something meant for outsiders to see. > > paul > Gotcha. The SOC were what us customers out in the wild would drool over while thinking about systems we could build if we actually had a budget. :D John H. Reinhardt From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 11 16:45:20 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:45:20 +0000 Subject: Panels Update - Relese Notes 8/e (A and B) Message-ID: <56E34A80.4070809@btinternet.com> *_Relese Notes 8/e (A and B) Drilling _*1. The keylock hole has been pre drilled to make sure the art work lines up 1.1 This hole has not been beveled inside as the method of doing it has only just been devised and missed the panel run. However the fix is not difficult. A fine grit conical grinding wheel does the job with no damage to the panel. 2. The switch spindle hole has not been predrilled due to the following issue: 2.1 DEC did an ECO to replace the selector switch. Instead of six positions starting at 12 o'clock and steps of 36deg anticlockwise going to 6 o'clock. (A type panel) They used a switch that started at 15deg anti clockwise from top centre (12 o'clock) and that goes in 30deg steps finishing 15deg short of bottom centre (6 o'clock ). Now the hole position no longer lies on the vertical line between top centre and bottom centre. Its offset to the right due to the crossing position having moved due to the change of angle. They then did something strange. They redrew the top and bottom lines between the 15deg position and what would have been the circle crossing point of the original descending vertical line. That made it worse. In the end they just drilled the hole very oversize and hid the line under the skirt of the knob. I only have a key and lamp board for an A type panel so I can't tell if when they changed to the new switch they moved it to the right to take care of the change of angle. So for B type I chose to draw the lines at the correct angles. A switch spindle located at the intersection of the lines would then move through the correct angles You can now drill the hole to suit your spindle position Rod Smallwood From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 11 16:59:24 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:59:24 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <018a01d17be9$a7f3bc60$f7db3520$@ntlworld.com> If you are happy to scan them (non-destructively) then that would be great! If it is not too many shelf-feet then I would be interested in keeping at least some of them, I can always give them to Jim Austin if they are too much. Adrian, if you are prepared to ship them (along with the other bits and pieces we have been talking about) I am happy to pay the p&p, although it might make more sense to send the manuals direct to Mark. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > Wickens > Sent: 11 March 2016 20:42 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > If we can arrange for the manuals to be saved I am happy to scan them in and > make them available to bitsavers. After that I am happy for them to go to > whoever wants the paper copies. Maybe at the next DEC Legacy (which it > looks like will be some time in October now)! > > Regards, Mark > On 11 Mar 2016 20:33, "Dave G4UGM" wrote: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > Adrian Graham > > > Sent: 11 March 2016 17:40 > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > > Newmarket UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > > > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which > > > > version of VMS? > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited > > otherwise > > > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll > > > probably > > be > > > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > > > > > > I think it was Rob that visited, I have just installed VMS 5.5 on a > > MicroVax3100 which I think came from you (perhaps Rob). > > There doesn't seem to be a proper set of manuals on the net anywhere > > so they would be very useful. > > How many feet of VMS manuals are there? > > > > Dave > > G4UGM > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > >> Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > > > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > >> > > > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect > > > >> books, Newmarket UK > > > >> > > > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > > > >> > > > >> wrote: > > > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a > > > >>> full bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants > > > >>> to take them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I > > > >>> didn't realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > > > >>> > > > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What > > > >> version of the operating systems? And are they manuals that are > > > >> already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > > > >> > > > >> Regards, > > > >> Christian > > > >> -- > > > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > > > >> STCKON08DS0 > > > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > Adrian/Witchy > > > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > > > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > > > collection? > > > > > > > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 17:07:07 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:07:07 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <018a01d17be9$a7f3bc60$f7db3520$@ntlworld.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> <018a01d17be9$a7f3bc60$f7db3520$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <04c101d17bea$bc667510$35335f30$@gmail.com> I have a new scanner and am happy to do some scanning as well. Perhaps we could split the work up... > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 11 March 2016 22:59 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > If you are happy to scan them (non-destructively) then that would be great! > If it is not too many shelf-feet then I would be interested in keeping at least > some of them, I can always give them to Jim Austin if they are too much. > > Adrian, if you are prepared to ship them (along with the other bits and pieces > we have been talking about) I am happy to pay the p&p, although it might > make more sense to send the manuals direct to Mark. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mark > > Wickens > > Sent: 11 March 2016 20:42 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: RE: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > Newmarket UK > > > > If we can arrange for the manuals to be saved I am happy to scan them > > in and make them available to bitsavers. After that I am happy for > > them to go to whoever wants the paper copies. Maybe at the next DEC > > Legacy (which it looks like will be some time in October now)! > > > > Regards, Mark > > On 11 Mar 2016 20:33, "Dave G4UGM" wrote: > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > > > Adrian Graham > > > > Sent: 11 March 2016 17:40 > > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > > > > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > > > Newmarket UK > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > > > > > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! > > > > > Which version of VMS? > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited > > > otherwise > > > > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll > > > > probably > > > be > > > > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > > > > > > > > > I think it was Rob that visited, I have just installed VMS 5.5 on a > > > MicroVax3100 which I think came from you (perhaps Rob). > > > There doesn't seem to be a proper set of manuals on the net anywhere > > > so they would be very useful. > > > How many feet of VMS manuals are there? > > > > > > Dave > > > G4UGM > > > > > > > > > > A > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > > > > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf > > > > >> Of Christian Gauger-Cosgrove > > > > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > > > > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > >> > > > > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect > > > > >> books, Newmarket UK > > > > >> > > > > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > > > > >> > > > > >> wrote: > > > > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a > > > > >>> full bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants > > > > >>> to take them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here > > > > >>> I didn't realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > > > > >>> > > > > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: > > > > >> What version of the operating systems? And are they manuals > > > > >> that are already on BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > > > > >> > > > > >> Regards, > > > > >> Christian > > > > >> -- > > > > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > > > > >> STCKON08DS0 > > > > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Adrian/Witchy > > > > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > > > > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > > > > collection? > > > > > > > > > > > > > From dave at 661.org Fri Mar 11 17:47:49 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 23:47:49 +0000 (UTC) Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECDED36@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECDED36@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > From: David Griffith > Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2016 4:14 PM > >> On Tue, 8 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: > >>> From: David Griffith >>> Sent: Monday, March 07, 2016 11:53 PM > >>>> Specifically I'm trying to build and run this: > >>>> CIRC 2,-^D18 > >>> Where did this code come from? > >> I got it from Jan deRie when I asked about it on a Youtube video[1] >> showing the Panda Display in action. > > Something just occurred to me. > > Exactly *where* are you trying to run this program? On a kn10-kl (the > extended KL-10 CPU defined by klh10), on a SimH KS-10, or on a real CPU > (KL, KS, or Toad)? > > I just had a look at the klh10 sources and find that Ken Harrenstien > added the CIRC instruction to his KL emulation as well as his KS > emulation in 2002. If you're running any klh10-based emulation, that > instruction ought to work. It would only work on MIT-specific real > hardware. It's a kn10-kl. I'm using the Panda distribution as downloaded from http://panda.trailing-edge.com/. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text. Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing? A: Top-posting. Q: What is the most annoying thing in e-mail? From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 18:30:03 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 19:30:03 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> Message-ID: I made a trip to the library today and set up the reader. Expensive nice piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it all. I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler output, as some people here suggested it may be. Even with this full set, is there not enough to build the entire system? Was the full source ever released? The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The scanner seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other microfiche that would go well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to work the scanner now and can make a digital copy. here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet. https://www.slashflash.info/~devin/Uploads/images/vms_fiche/ --Devin On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 4:03 PM, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > > On 3/9/2016 3:44 PM, devin davison wrote: > >> I do not know much at all about what it would take to compile this into a >> working system. My first step is going to be to get over to the library >> and >> get everything into a digital format. Ill be putting everything i scan up >> online. >> >> > If by "working system" you mean a fully functional (Open)VMS, then you > won't. The source code listings on fiche (or CD/DVD) contain the compiler > listings for many parts of Open)VMS, but not all. They also don't have the > utilities needed in the highly complex toolchain that is used to create a > working (Open)VMS system. They were meant for those who do device driver > and internal support to be able to find areas in the code to debug. They > were not meant to be able to build a working system. If you want to know > how a certain system service works or device driver or utility, they are > great. > > > Thank you in advance for putting it online (although it's possible HP > might have something to say about it, but given the version, hopefully not). > > If there is a copy of the source on CD that someone can spare that would be >> great, I was unaware any newer versions of the source code were >> distributed >> on newer formats such as CD. >> > > As others have said, (although I think it was V6.0 that started CD, but I > could be quite wrong) the current format for source listings is CD (DVD for > the 8.x IA64). I have several from my stint at HP (as an Oracle DBA > contractor, unfortunately not in OpenVMS support but you'd be surprised at > how cheap you can buy things as an employee.) > > --Devin >> > > John H. Reinhardt > From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 11 18:50:44 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 00:50:44 +0000 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> On 12/03/16 00:30, devin davison wrote: > I made a trip to the library today and set up the reader. Expensive nice > piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it all. > I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler > output, as some people here suggested it may be. I believe various intelligence and military customers could get source distributions. Those were not on fiche: they were on removable packs or tapes. These kits were (AFAIK) built on demand. Even those were not (again AFAIK) complete and almost certainly would not have included a build environment (i.e. all the procedures needed to produce a build). Such source kits were not cheap. You don't have that. You have source listings. > Even with this full set, > is there not enough to build the entire system? No > Was the full source ever > released? Some source was but not to normal customers and I doubt that it was the full source. > The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The scanner > seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other microfiche that would go > well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to > work the scanner now and can make a digital copy. > > here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet. Those are source listings: they are the output of the compiler. The quality looks very good. If you have any manuals on fiche (FMPS etc.) it would be interesting to see how those turn out. Out of interest, how long did it take to produce those 12 pages? Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 11 18:55:02 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 00:55:02 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <04c101d17bea$bc667510$35335f30$@gmail.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <0c2201d17bd5$4e2568a0$ea7039e0$@gmail.com> <018a01d17be9$a7f3bc60$f7db3520$@ntlworld.com> <04c101d17bea$bc667510$35335f30$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E368E6.6000207@ntlworld.com> On 11/03/16 23:07, Dave Wade wrote: > I have a new scanner and am happy to do some scanning as well. Perhaps we could split the work up... > Non-destructively scanning DECdirect catalogues or SOCs would be very time-consuming, although if you have access to one of those copiers that is intended to scan books and can go right to the edge, then that would produce good results. I don't have one of those ... :-( -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Fri Mar 11 19:04:11 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 01:04:11 +0000 Subject: tops20 assembly tutorials In-Reply-To: References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC6F63@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECC7C52@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECDED36@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECE5E68@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: David Griffith Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 3:48 PM On Thu, 10 Mar 2016, Rich Alderson wrote: >> Exactly *where* are you trying to run this program? On a kn10-kl (the >> extended KL-10 CPU defined by klh10), on a SimH KS-10, or on a real CPU >> (KL, KS, or Toad)? > It's a kn10-kl. I'm using the Panda distribution as downloaded from > http://panda.trailing-edge.com/. It's been so long since I ran that that I had to reload it on my Linux box. (I've been using klh10 for Tops-10 development for years now.) I booted MRC's Panda disk image, cut&pasted the program into a file on the disk (COPY TTY: HACK.MAC ^Z) then DEBUG HACK and stepped through past the first LITES%. There was no complaint about the CIRC. Capture a complete log and mail it to me. I'll see if I can see what's stepping on you. Rich Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 20:12:58 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:12:58 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Well, I have the scanner and the time, I am going to put in online anyways. It may not be the full source, but perhaps it will come in handy for someone else. I only spent a few minutes scanning those 12 pages. It was a just a quick initial run of the scanner to learn how to operate it and save the images. Once i get it all scanned, I will post a link to it. --Devin On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 7:50 PM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > On 12/03/16 00:30, devin davison wrote: > >> I made a trip to the library today and set up the reader. Expensive nice >> piece of equipment, however it is going to take a long time to scan it >> all. >> I am still uncertain as to weather this is the source or the compiler >> output, as some people here suggested it may be. >> > > I believe various intelligence and military customers could get source > distributions. > Those were not on fiche: they were on removable packs or tapes. These kits > were (AFAIK) > built on demand. Even those were not (again AFAIK) complete and almost > certainly would > not have included a build environment (i.e. all the procedures needed to > produce a build). > Such source kits were not cheap. > > You don't have that. You have source listings. > > Even with this full set, >> is there not enough to build the entire system? >> > > No > > Was the full source ever >> released? >> > > Some source was but not to normal customers and I doubt that it was the > full source. > > The plan is to scan it all and get it archived. The scanner >> seems to be doing a good job. If anyone has other microfiche that would go >> well along with this set, and would be willing to mail them, I know how to >> work the scanner now and can make a digital copy. >> >> here are the first 12 pages i scanned off the first sheet. >> > > Those are source listings: they are the output of the compiler. > > The quality looks very good. If you have any manuals on fiche (FMPS etc.) > it would be interesting to see how those turn out. > > Out of interest, how long did it take to produce those 12 pages? > > Antonio > > -- > Antonio Carlini > arcarlini at iee.org > > From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Fri Mar 11 20:21:46 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:21:46 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> >On Thursday, February 10th, 2016 at 12:51:30 - 0500, Richard Cini wrote: >Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? > >I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. > Sorry for the delay in my answer. I was out of town for the last 36 hours, so I just noticed this thread. For maximum flexibility, I would suggest V05.03 of RT-11. It is just about the most widely available and has the benefit of probably being completely legal to use on a non-commercial basis with SimH. V04.00 of RT-11 will probably run equally well, but obviously without some of the many additional features found in V05.03 of RT-11. In addition, you might want to check even later versions of RT-11, all of which still run on a PDP-11/03 CPU. Under V05.03 of RT-11, you can use either distributed Unmapped Monitor, RT11SJ or RT11FB. The size will be larger than from V04.00 of RT-11, but I suggest that the additional features are more than worth while. Since you have all 32 KW or memory or 64 KB, you will not have any problem booting RT-11. If you have any specific questions using Ersatz-11 with a PDP-11/03, just ask. That will make sure that the configuration and the boot device is set up correctly. Just for practice, you might try using Ersatz-11 with V05.03 of RT-11 with SET CPU 03. You will find that Ersatz-11 is trivial to use and that it supports emulation of all types of disk drives including TU-58, RK05, RL02 and SCSI, named, respectively, DD:, RK:, DL: and DU:, the same as DEC names them. Be warned that after you practice with Ersatz-11, you may find that an LSI-11, also called a PDP-11/03, is a bit slower than running with Ersatz-11, even on a 486. My experience with just a 750 MHz Pentium III is that RT-11 runs about 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93. On a current I7 from Intel, I expect speeds more than 100 times as fast as a PDP-11/93. If you provide some of the information requested below, a version of RT-11 might be suggested which is a better fit. Otherwise, my assumption at present is that you want to use RT-11 since it is the only reasonable choice out of RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E, although I am reasonably sure that RSTS/E can't run on a PDP-11/03. Further, you want to run RT-11 to be able to show that you can run RT-11 on the PDP-11/03 hardware that you have. That is quite different from the original reason a PDP-11/03 system was purchased, namely to run specific application programs which were able to run under RT-11. If I am incorrect, please let me know and advise otherwise. It does sound like you have the Heath Kit version of the hardware. If so, then you probably don't have a hard disk drive. A complete list of the actual hardware will be helpful. In addition, even more important from my point of view is why you want to use the hardware that you have to run RT-11 (most likely because it will not run anything else very easily) and then which specific application programs will be run after you are successful in getting RT-11 to run. Just as important is how you will interface with the PDP-11/03 and move the results from the PDP-11/03 to either printed output or a system that can share the results via the internet. Jerome Fine From drlegendre at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 21:15:59 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:15:59 -0600 Subject: Free file downloads In-Reply-To: <5ADBA802007041E381570F2BE8D1489F@310e2> References: <004601d17b5e$8b6661a0$a23324e0$@com> <5ADBA802007041E381570F2BE8D1489F@310e2> Message-ID: oldergeeks is great, thanks for posting this.. On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 1:51 PM, Mike Stein wrote: > Thank you! > > m > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cindy Croxton" > To: "'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts'" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Sent: Friday, March 11, 2016 1:23 AM > Subject: Free file downloads > > > >I just found this download site. It includes drivers, games, etc., and > many > > programs and drivers for Win NT and up, Linux, and Mac. No spyware or > > crapware, just good files. > > > > Maybe not old compared to a lot of posts here, but there are drivers for > > many very old cards for very old Win systems. > > > > http://www.oldergeeks.com/downloads/index.php > > > > > > > > Cindy > > > > > > > > --- > > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 11 21:49:51 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:49:51 -0600 Subject: today's haul Message-ID: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> A system I have always wanted (spent much of my career working on) has finally been acquired. A Prime (Pr1me) model 2250 aka "rabbit". The cpu chassis is in the foreground. I do have the bezels (they were removed for shipping). In the background you can see the rebadged cipher F880 in the same type of rack that will sit next to it. https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25084207344 I'm told it has two 158mb priams, an ics1, and either 1mb or 2mb ram. Will post more pics when I get around to opening it up. Best, J From echristopherson at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 22:06:49 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 22:06:49 -0600 Subject: today's haul In-Reply-To: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160312040649.GD99020@gmail.com> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016, Jay West wrote: > A system I have always wanted (spent much of my career working on) has > finally been acquired. > > > > A Prime (Pr1me) model 2250 aka "rabbit". The cpu chassis is in the > foreground. I do have the bezels (they were removed for shipping). In the > background you can see the rebadged cipher F880 in the same type of rack > that will sit next to it. > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25084207344 > > > > I'm told it has two 158mb priams, an ics1, and either 1mb or 2mb ram. Will > post more pics when I get around to opening it up. Excellent! -- Eric Christopherson From healyzh at aracnet.com Fri Mar 11 22:51:28 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:51:28 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> > On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I > discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: > > https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ > > is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list > might be interested in it. What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to be able configure all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them up, and boot GCOS-8. Zane From jws at jwsss.com Fri Mar 11 23:02:11 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:02:11 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <56E3A2D3.4060105@jwsss.com> On 3/11/2016 8:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >> >> OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I >> discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: >> >> https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ >> >> is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list >> might be interested in it. > What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to be able configure all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them up, and boot GCOS-8. > > Zane The problem with GCOS is that there isn't a history I know of that it was anything but Honeywells property. A lot of negotiation and persistence on the part of many folks went to getting it to where the Multics code could be released. And it was lucky to be saved @ MIT and the CHM with donations. I don't know of anyone with GCOS when it has been mentioned over the history of the discussions about this hardware. Many thanks to Harry and Charles for writing the emulator, and to the others reviving the system. I plan to have a 6180 panel at VCF West and an original 645 board from the first Multics system for show and tell. thanks Jim From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 23:11:38 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:11:38 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <56E3A2D3.4060105@jwsss.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <56E3A2D3.4060105@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 9:02 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 3/11/2016 8:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >>> >>> OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I >>> discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: >>> >>> https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ >>> >>> is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list >>> might be interested in it. >>> >> What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. >> That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to >> be able configure all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them >> up, and boot GCOS-8. >> >> Zane >> > The problem with GCOS is that there isn't a history I know of that it was > anything but Honeywells property. A lot of negotiation and persistence on > the part of many folks went to getting it to where the Multics code could > be released. And it was lucky to be saved @ MIT and the CHM with > donations. > > I don't know of anyone with GCOS when it has been mentioned over the > history of the discussions about this hardware. > > Many thanks to Harry and Charles for writing the emulator, and to the > others reviving the system. > > I plan to have a 6180 panel at VCF West and an original 645 board from the > first Multics system for show and tell. > > thanks > Jim > > I was tentatively planning to be at VCF West with a Multics emulation, and as much real hardware as I can chase down (I/O selectric OPCON, maybe a tape drive, a line printer, ?) Maybe we can hook up a beaglebone to your 6180 panel? -- Charles From lbickley at bickleywest.com Fri Mar 11 23:50:23 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:50:23 -0800 Subject: today's haul In-Reply-To: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160311215023.14aacf9c@asrock.bcwi.net> On Fri, 11 Mar 2016 21:49:51 -0600 "Jay West" wrote: > A system I have always wanted (spent much of my career working on) has > finally been acquired. > > > > A Prime (Pr1me) model 2250 aka "rabbit". The cpu chassis is in the > foreground. I do have the bezels (they were removed for shipping). In > the background you can see the rebadged cipher F880 in the same type > of rack that will sit next to it. > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25084207344 > > > > I'm told it has two 158mb priams, an ics1, and either 1mb or 2mb ram. > Will post more pics when I get around to opening it up. Congratulations/terrific, Jay!!! Prime was a fun/useful system - Wells Fargo (WF) used them to do quantitative analysis "in the day". I ran the quant group at Fidelity and we used an 11/70 for our quant (market models, bond arbitrage, etc.). We had an ongoing working relationship with WF. Cheers, Lyle -- 73 AF6WS Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Mar 12 01:45:30 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 02:45:30 -0500 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? Message-ID: <1da6b.454461b7.44152319@aol.com> I have front panels for Honeywell huge black and white with tons of tiny switches and leds. kind of like these http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu2.jpg http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu1.jpg some have more white areas is from a 6000? dps8? 8000? I know some of the large Honeywell machines were used for MULTICS but trying to figure what panels which machines it was run on as an op sys. Guess I should know more as my computer business was 2 miles away from the plant these were made in in phx but I was too busy working on and selling HP stuff.. I have tried to find a site that had a definitive group of the panels on it to use as an ID tool. Oddly it seems we have 2 of each type and as I remember there are 4 or 5 large ones to a set? ( plus some small ones) Drop me a note! any help appreciated Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) . In a message dated 3/11/2016 10:11:43 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, charles.unix.pro at gmail.com writes: On Fri, Mar 11, 2016me at 9:02 PM, jwsmobile wrote: > > > On 3/11/2016 8:51 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: >>> >>> OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I >>> discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: >>> >>> https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ >>> >>> is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list >>> might be interested in it. >>> >> What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. >> That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to >> be able configure all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them >> up, and boot GCOS-8. >> >> Zane >> > The problem with GCOS is that there isn't a history I know of that it was > anything but Honeywells property. A lot of negotiation and persistence on > the part of many folks went to getting it to where the Multics code could > be released. And it was lucky to be saved @ MIT and the CHM with > donations. > > I don't know of anyone with GCOS when it has been mentioned over the > history of the discussions about this hardware. > > Many thanks to Harry and Charles for writing the emulator, and to the > others reviving the system. > > I plan to have a 6180 panel at VCF West and an original 645 board from the > first Multics system for show and tell. > > thanks > Jim > > I was tentatively planning to be at VCF West with a Multics emulation, and as much real hardware as I can chase down (I/O selectric OPCON, maybe a tape drive, a line printer, ?) Maybe we can hook up a beaglebone to your 6180 panel? -- Charles From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 02:21:55 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 08:21:55 -0000 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <055501d17c38$3d7eada0$b87c08e0$@gmail.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Zane Healy > Sent: 12 March 2016 04:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Any word on the Multics revival front? > > > > On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux > wrote: > > > > OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I > > discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: > > > > https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ > > > > is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this > > list might be interested in it. > > What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. That?s what > I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to be able configure > all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them up, and boot > GCOS-8. > > Zane > Sadly, I doubt it very much. It was still in use on emulated hardware until relatively recently and I assume BULL was still making money from it and guarding its assets. Thinkage still have GCOS products listed on their web site. https://www.thinkage.ca/english/gcos/index.shtml but sadly no longer a "B" compiler. I think that one has slipped past me... Dave Wade G4UGM From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 02:28:19 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 01:28:19 -0700 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <055501d17c38$3d7eada0$b87c08e0$@gmail.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <055501d17c38$3d7eada0$b87c08e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 1:21 AM, Dave Wade wrote: [GCOS-8] > Sadly, I doubt it very much. It was still in use on emulated hardware until relatively recently and I assume BULL was still making money from it and guarding its assets. Thinkage still have GCOS products listed on their web site. There's at least some possible future upside to that, which is that if they are (or recently were) still selling and supporting it, then they probably still actually have it, vs. the huge amount of software of historical interest that is already lost. Also, since Group BULL was willing to make a Multics license available, that may serve as useful precedent for getting them to offer a similar GCOS license at some future date when they don't believe it will harm their commercial interests. From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 02:56:39 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 02:56:39 -0600 Subject: Sun 4/260 Message-ID: Howdy there folks, I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for sale or possibly even loan? I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just looking to recoup lost time :) Thanks, James From roland.schregle at gmail.com Fri Mar 11 17:06:12 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Roland Schregle) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 00:06:12 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <19E95A26-B02E-433F-B475-C08B2966902D@gmail.com> On 11/03/2016, at 8:01 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> On Mar 10, 2016, at 10:05 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: >> >> I wonder if the tele tessar was a true tessar design or just a use >> of 'the name' ? I have seen snipits in google referring to it being a true >> telephoto... with a true tessar formula lens IS NOT. > > I think it?s based on the Tessar, but is something different from what?s in the Hasselblad manual. The cross-section is definitely different. There are apparently at least two Tele-Tessar designs, with different numbers of elements. > >> ok the norm for the hassleblad was a80 mm f 2.8 planar... >> >> in the rolliflex the tessar was the entry level lens... the planar the >> upgrade. >> >> my first 'real' camera was a 1933 rolliflex with a f3.5 tessar. not >> bad at all but a little soft wide open. >> I still have this camera. and the low shutter speeds are a little >> slow but OTW rest is fine.. >> In HD I bought an argus c3 from my geometry teacher for $8 and >> used it a lot more shots per roll and would operate eye level and >> had a pretty good split image rangefinder.. the lens was decent too. >> >> when I went in USAF sold the C# to my brother but kept the >> rolliflex ( wish I had saved both! as the argus shot some of my first >> press work) adn when in USAF got a SLR. > > I?ve not been able to justify the cost of a Planar Rolleiflex, though I?d really love one with a nice f/2.8 Planar lens. Both of mine have the 75mm f/3.5 Tessar. The older of my two is from 1936, the newer from about 1958. For me the Rollei is more of a small lightweight travel camera, or shooting for fun, than a serious camera. Sort of a ?getting back to my roots? sort of thing, as I started with a Yashica 44LM TLR. There's always the Schneider Xenotar as alternative to the Planar; got one on my 2.8C. The performance is pretty much identical for a fraction of the price. Of course it doesn't have the same prestige. There's been endless discussions about the relative merits of these two lens, but for all intents and purposes, they are absolutely on par. They're for users, not collectors. Have the Tessar on a 3.5B (aka MX-EVS). Excellent expect when wide open as mentioned here, though I wouldn't call it entry level. I think Zeiss made an earlier, sub-standard lens (Biotar ?) for Rollei before they could deliver 75mm Tessars. Also have Distagon wide angles for my SL35 (Rollei's 1st foray into 35mm SLRs), including a clunky f/1.4 35mm and an f/2.8 25mm. These are superb lens; even the ones made under license by Rollei Singapore are pretty good. The Zeiss ones are more solidly built tho. Of course I also have the Planar as standard lens for the SL35, plus a 200mm TeleTessar. The latter is fairly unimpressive unless really stopped down. Somebody mentioned the Zeiss ZM line for Leica. Have the f/2.8 35mm Biogon and the f/2 50mm Planar for my M3 and M2. These perform very close to the original Leitz glass, but are at least affordable for mere mortals. Having said that, I find the colour rendition of these lens over the top; way too saturated compared to the earlier Zeiss lens (note that these are actually made by Cosina in Japan). --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] From earl at retrobits.com Fri Mar 11 22:28:27 2016 From: earl at retrobits.com (Earl Evans) Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:28:27 -0800 Subject: today's haul In-Reply-To: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> References: <003001d17c12$3b98cbe0$b2ca63a0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: Very nice, congrats! Looking forward to the pictures. - Earl On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 7:49 PM, Jay West wrote: > A system I have always wanted (spent much of my career working on) has > finally been acquired. > > > > A Prime (Pr1me) model 2250 aka "rabbit". The cpu chassis is in the > foreground. I do have the bezels (they were removed for shipping). In the > background you can see the rebadged cipher F880 in the same type of rack > that will sit next to it. > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/131070638 at N02/25084207344 > > > > I'm told it has two 158mb priams, an ics1, and either 1mb or 2mb ram. Will > post more pics when I get around to opening it up. > > > > Best, > > > > J > > > > > > From jws at jwsss.com Sat Mar 12 04:06:25 2016 From: jws at jwsss.com (jwsmobile) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 02:06:25 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <1da6b.454461b7.44152319@aol.com> References: <1da6b.454461b7.44152319@aol.com> Message-ID: <56E3EA21.1020303@jwsss.com> On 3/11/2016 11:45 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I have front panels for Honeywell huge black and white with tons of > tiny switches and leds. > > kind of like these > http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu2.jpg > > http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu1.jpg > > some have more white areas is from a 6000? dps8? 8000? > It looks a lot like one in the collection which contained the one I have. This has my panel, as well as ones from when it was listed on Ebay. The black panel looks like it might be similar to the one you are referring to. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-panel.html thanks Jim From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Sat Mar 12 04:08:05 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 10:08:05 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 11/03/2016 17:54, "Paul Koning" wrote: >> They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise >> you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be >> VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > RSTS V4 (from 1973) is from the white binder era. Then came blue, then gray, > then "chinese red" if I remember the order correctly. Maybe the last two are > swapped. So gray would suggest a fairly late version, perhaps V8 or so. > Still definitely interesting and potentially worth scanning; bitsavers only > has a few versions and the differences can be significant. OK, they're definitely grey and the RSX ones are Orange. When I'm out and about later today I need to drive past work so I'll call in and check/photograph. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 04:08:58 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:08:58 +0100 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-03-12 9:56 GMT+01:00 James Vess : > Howdy there folks, > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for > sale or possibly even loan? > There is someone in the UK that sells a lot of parts from a 4/2xx machine: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161997957466 /Mattis > > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just > looking to recoup lost time :) > > Thanks, > James > From mgariboldi at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 05:54:34 2016 From: mgariboldi at gmail.com (Marco Gariboldi) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:54:34 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: <19E95A26-B02E-433F-B475-C08B2966902D@gmail.com> References: <19E95A26-B02E-433F-B475-C08B2966902D@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-12 0:06 GMT+01:00 Roland Schregle : > > Have the Tessar on a 3.5B (aka MX-EVS). Excellent expect when wide open as > mentioned here, though I wouldn't call it entry level. I think Zeiss made > an earlier, sub-standard lens (Biotar ?) for Rollei before they could > deliver 75mm Tessars. > Biotar sub-standard? Germans happily used them on their film cameras, rather extensively during WW II. I think you might be thinking of the Jena (GDR) Biometar instead, which later became known as Pentacon. > Somebody mentioned the Zeiss ZM line for Leica. Have the f/2.8 35mm Biogon > and the f/2 50mm Planar for my M3 and M2. These perform very close to the > original Leitz glass, but are at least affordable for mere mortals. Indeed and, more importantly, I'm very happy with my Biogon. Plus, that blue orb also looks nice. - MG From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Mar 12 05:58:27 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 06:58:27 -0500 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? Message-ID: <1d4e73.31e32f79.44155e63@aol.com> ok have sent panel photos to those on this multics convo anyone else can email me for some or talk to the others do not thing thins list passes images? seems these are like he ones in Jim's link below. we have 2 sets... one we will display here the other set is up in the air... maybe someone would like to wire it into a big H emulator! << would listen to all offers...Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC In a message dated 3/12/2016 3:06:52 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jws at jwsss.com writes: On 3/11/2016 11:45 PM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > I have front panels for Honeywell huge black and white with tons of > tiny switches and leds. > > kind of like these > http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu2.jpg > > http://www.glennsmuseum.com/components/pics/multics_panel_cu1.jpg > > some have more white areas is from a 6000? dps8? 8000? > It looks a lot like one in the collection which contained the one I have. This has my panel, as well as ones from when it was listed on Ebay. The black panel looks like it might be similar to the one you are referring to. http://jimsoldtoys.blogspot.com/2016/03/honeywell-6180-system-maintenance-pa nel.html thanks Jim From rich.cini at verizon.net Sat Mar 12 06:10:08 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:10:08 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <08C1F1D6-8BF5-46A7-BFAE-BB052B47E5EF@verizon.net> Jerome ? Thanks for jumping in here. All good questions, and here?s what my plan is. I bought the H11 as a project. I have a soft spot for the PDP-11, after owning (and donating) an 11/34 to the RICM. This unit needed a lot of physical TLC but was believed to be functional (it was). The original configuration was the CPU card (DEC), two 16kw memory boards (Heath; with appropriate memory hole at the top) and a single SLU (Heath). I located two more SLUs (all Heath), an extra memory board (32kw; unbranded) and a parallel board (Heath; not installed). After lots of cleaning, then qualifying the power supply, and confirming the board jumpers were set properly, I fired it up, using PDP11GUI as the console, and I got the ODT prompt. So, good news there. My unit did not come with Heath?s RX01-equivalent (and no software or manuals), so there?s no method of storage. I stumbled upon the TU58EM program and since I had two SLUs configured properly, I thought I?d give it a try as an alternative to nothing. I really don?t have the room for a real RX01, so I though this was a fair compromise. What am I going to do with this setup? I don?t know. Right now it?s fun reacquainting myself with DEC after about 10 years without one. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 3/11/16, 9:21 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >On Thursday, February 10th, 2016 at 12:51:30 - 0500, Richard Cini wrote: > >>Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? >> >>I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. >> >Sorry for the delay in my answer. I was out of town for the last >36 hours, so I just noticed this thread. > >For maximum flexibility, I would suggest V05.03 of RT-11. It is >just about the most widely available and has the benefit of probably >being completely legal to use on a non-commercial basis with SimH. > >V04.00 of RT-11 will probably run equally well, but obviously >without some of the many additional features found in V05.03 >of RT-11. In addition, you might want to check even later >versions of RT-11, all of which still run on a PDP-11/03 CPU. > >Under V05.03 of RT-11, you can use either distributed >Unmapped Monitor, RT11SJ or RT11FB. The size will be >larger than from V04.00 of RT-11, but I suggest that the >additional features are more than worth while. Since you >have all 32 KW or memory or 64 KB, you will not have >any problem booting RT-11. > >If you have any specific questions using Ersatz-11 with >a PDP-11/03, just ask. That will make sure that the >configuration and the boot device is set up correctly. > >Just for practice, you might try using Ersatz-11 with V05.03 >of RT-11 with SET CPU 03. You will find that Ersatz-11 >is trivial to use and that it supports emulation of all types of >disk drives including TU-58, RK05, RL02 and SCSI, named, >respectively, DD:, RK:, DL: and DU:, the same as DEC names >them. Be warned that after you practice with Ersatz-11, you >may find that an LSI-11, also called a PDP-11/03, is a bit >slower than running with Ersatz-11, even on a 486. My >experience with just a 750 MHz Pentium III is that RT-11 >runs about 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93. On a current >I7 from Intel, I expect speeds more than 100 times as fast >as a PDP-11/93. > >If you provide some of the information requested below, a >version of RT-11 might be suggested which is a better fit. >Otherwise, my assumption at present is that you want to >use RT-11 since it is the only reasonable choice out of >RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E, although I am reasonably >sure that RSTS/E can't run on a PDP-11/03. Further, you >want to run RT-11 to be able to show that you can run >RT-11 on the PDP-11/03 hardware that you have. That >is quite different from the original reason a PDP-11/03 >system was purchased, namely to run specific application >programs which were able to run under RT-11. If I >am incorrect, please let me know and advise otherwise. > >It does sound like you have the Heath Kit version of the hardware. >If so, then you probably don't have a hard disk drive. A complete >list of the actual hardware will be helpful. In addition, even more >important from my point of view is why you want to use the hardware >that you have to run RT-11 (most likely because it will not run anything >else very easily) and then which specific application programs will be >run after you are successful in getting RT-11 to run. Just as important >is how you will interface with the PDP-11/03 and move the results >from the PDP-11/03 to either printed output or a system that can >share the results via the internet. > >Jerome Fine From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Sat Mar 12 07:35:36 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 08:35:36 -0500 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E41B28.9010200@compsys.to> >Adrian Graham wrote: >>On 11/03/2016 17:54, "Paul Koning" wrote: > >>>They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise >>>you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be >>>VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. >>> >>> >>RSTS V4 (from 1973) is from the white binder era. Then came blue, then gray, >>then "chinese red" if I remember the order correctly. Maybe the last two are >>swapped. So gray would suggest a fairly late version, perhaps V8 or so. >>Still definitely interesting and potentially worth scanning; bitsavers only >>has a few versions and the differences can be significant. >> >OK, they're definitely grey and the RSX ones are Orange. When I'm out and >about later today I need to drive past work so I'll call in and >check/photograph. > Just to add to the color choices that DEC made, as far as I can remember, for RT-11 the manuals were blue at one point, then orange and finally grey. In addition, the size of each binder used to vary quite a bit and there were relatively few binders, although the total size of the material tended to remain the same. But at the very last when the grey manuals arrived with V05.05 of RT-11, the size of all binders was the same and the various manuals were redistributed when that was needed so that big binders were broken up. In the case of a very large single manual in a very large binder, the manual was also split into two and two binders. Finally, the TECO manual was omitted entirely after about V05.03 of RT-11. I can't remember when. Jerome Fine From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 08:44:43 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 14:44:43 -0000 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <1d4dfc.1ef1c313.44155d35@aol.com> References: <1d4dfc.1ef1c313.44155d35@aol.com> Message-ID: <01ae01d17c6d$b74a14a0$25de3de0$@gmail.com> The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these were hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work the same on a Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only time they were really used was if you split a 2 x CPU system into 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the memory configuration from interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you could IPL from the console. Dave From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com [mailto:COURYHOUSE at aol.com] Sent: 12 March 2016 11:53 To: jws at jwsss.com Cc: spacewar at gmail.com; dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; charles.unix.pro at gmail.com; jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; Kevin at RawFedDogs.net; healyzh at aracnet.com; couryhouse at aol.com; couryhouse.smecc at gmail.com Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc ok sent to all the people cc on the multics stuff.. will not go though on main listserv probably here are some of the panels think there is more there are at least 2 of each type one set will make display her at smecc museum in az the other set??? maybe someone want to wire into an emulator <<>> aside from a little dust and bad lighting these things look like they were pretty unused thanks ed# www.smecc.org From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 09:27:18 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:27:18 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <01ae01d17c6d$b74a14a0$25de3de0$@gmail.com> References: <1d4dfc.1ef1c313.44155d35@aol.com> <01ae01d17c6d$b74a14a0$25de3de0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Dave G4UGM wrote: > The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these were > hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work the same on a > Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only time they were really used > was if you split a 2 x CPU system into 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the > memory configuration from interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you > could IPL from the console. > > > [My understanding; I wasn't there] The display panels changed over time; later models had a minicomputer with management software instead of the big panels. Early models: The CPU cabinet had two doors, with the panels on the inside of the door, so that opening the door swung the panel out. (There were probably additional panels exposed, but I'm not sure.) One the panels was the CPU status, showing the contents of the registers (A, Q, PPR, TSR, Xn, PARn), the major CPU states (fetch, execute, interrupt, fault), and major status bits (Append Unit, Operation Unit, Decimal Unit). I understand it was common practice to leave that door open for it visual appeal and highly visible 'things are running' status (including the 'idle crawl' a distinctive pattern display when Multics was idle. The panels labeled SCU are System Control Units; they were separate cabinets. The SCU's contained the memory and handled all communication between CPUs and between CPUs and IO controllers. The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor). The enormous number of configuration switches is due to the extreme modularity of the system. Core memory was in the SCUs, not the CPUs; each SCU could have a varying amount of memory, in up to 4 banks of varying sizes. Each bank could taken out of service, so defining the addressing of the memory in each SCU was complex. Each CPU had to have a matching memory configuration panel so that it knew which SCU to talk to access a particular memory location. Each CPU had to be cabled to each SCU. Since the IOMs did DMA, the memory configuration panels are duplicated there as well, and each IOM cabled to each SCU. The only display panel I would want to utilize is the CPU status; the other panels display information which the emulator does not necessarily have and do not have the 'wow' factor. -- Charles From js at cimmeri.com Sat Mar 12 10:04:17 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:04:17 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56E43E01.7050207@cimmeri.com> Can that scanner produce anything other than massive .png files? - J. On 3/11/2016 9:12 PM, devin davison wrote: > Well, I have the scanner and the time, I am going to put in online anyways. > It may not be the full source, but perhaps it will come in handy for > someone else. > I only spent a few minutes scanning those 12 pages. It was a just a quick > initial run of the scanner to learn how to operate it and save the images. > Once i get it all scanned, I will post a link to it. > > --Devin > > On Fri, Mar 1 From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Sat Mar 12 10:11:37 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (Antonio Carlini) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 16:11:37 +0000 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E43E01.7050207@cimmeri.com> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> <56E43E01.7050207@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <56E43FB9.7090207@ntlworld.com> On 12/03/16 16:04, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Can that scanner produce anything other than massive .png files? > I wonder whether it can do B&W G4 encoded at something like 600dpi. That should cut the size down a bit and produce something that perhaps could then be OCRd. My recollection is that each page of fiche is something like 13x30 panels, so 300-400 images. At current size that would be 1GiB-ish per sheet of fiche. A release must be in the region of 400 sheets or more (I'm guessing, I've not counted mine ...) so 0.5TiB per release. It's probably worth experimenting a little, assuming the scanner has suitable knobs that can be twiddled... Antonio -- Antonio Carlini arcarlini at iee.org From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 12 10:35:38 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 08:35:38 -0800 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E4455A.1010704@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/16 12:56 AM, James Vess wrote: > Howdy there folks, > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > Where are you? I have a pair of 280 series servers in racks and a 3 or 4/260 that I'm in the process of pulling out of storage along with a LOT of 9u boards in the SF bay area. They are going to be available before April. I am not willing to handle shipping beyond having someone pick them up. From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 12 10:38:49 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 08:38:49 -0800 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E43FB9.7090207@ntlworld.com> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> <56E43E01.7050207@cimmeri.com> <56E43FB9.7090207@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56E44619.3080408@bitsavers.org> On 3/12/16 8:11 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > It's probably worth experimenting a little No, it's not. I'm sorry, but file size matters squat compared to the time it's going to take to scan them. From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Mar 12 10:42:40 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:42:40 -0500 Subject: VMS 4.4 source code microfiche In-Reply-To: <56E44619.3080408@bitsavers.org> References: <01PXLP9TDAQI00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <201603091517.KAA12463@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E06096.8000907@ntlworld.com> <56E332B0.6050009@yahoo.com> <56E367E4.7070101@ntlworld.com> <56E43E01.7050207@cimmeri.com> <56E43FB9.7090207@ntlworld.com> <56E44619.3080408@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <8B8F78F5-7B10-4A2F-891A-2CA3B4E8DFDE@comcast.net> > On Mar 12, 2016, at 11:38 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 3/12/16 8:11 AM, Antonio Carlini wrote: > >> It's probably worth experimenting a little > > No, it's not. > I'm sorry, but file size matters squat compared to the time it's > going to take to scan them. I agree. Also, converting file formats is a straightforward post-processing exercise. The important part is to capture the original data, and store it (using a LOSSLESS storage format). The rest can be done by ad-hoc tools, or in many cases by standard image editing tools like GIMP or Photoshop. paul From Kevin at RawFedDogs.net Sat Mar 12 12:37:11 2016 From: Kevin at RawFedDogs.net (Kevin Monceaux) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:37:11 -0600 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> Message-ID: <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 08:51:28PM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. > That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I would too. I've always been curious about Honeywell OSes. Well, I'm curious about any mainframe OSes I've never had contact with, which is most of them. I currently work as an IBM z/OS operator, so I'm mostly familiar with IBM OSes. I went to college briefly at Lamar University in Beaumont, TX in '88-'89. Sadly I dropped out during my second semester. The computer science department had an overworked VAX 11/750. I worked as a volunteer operator on that system. I heard the engineering department had a Honeywell mainframe. There was one Honeywell terminal room in the computer science building that was used by a FORTRAN programming class. The doorway to that terminal room was the closest I ever got to the campus's Honeywell. I don't know what model it was, or what OS it ran. I still regret not finding out more about it while I was there. And that has made me especially curious about Honeywell OSes. -- Kevin http://www.RawFedDogs.net http://www.Lassie.xyz http://www.WacoAgilityGroup.org Bruceville, TX What's the definition of a legacy system? One that works! Errare humanum est, ignoscere caninum. From eric at swenson.org Sat Mar 12 12:47:04 2016 From: eric at swenson.org (Eric Swenson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 10:47:04 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? Message-ID: <56E46428.6060205@swenson.org> While I don't know of any GCOS 8 systems out there, Multics does include a GCOS batch simulator. Some customers of Multics used it (in preference to GCOS) because it was actually faster. While I can't vouch for the completeness or correctness of the GCOS batch system's working under the emulator, we know that at least some of it works, as the "map355" command needed to assemble the FNP image works under emulated Multics, and it uses the GCOS simulator to perform the assembly. There is also a GCOS TSS subsystem under Multics, but we have reason to believe that it isn't working quite right yet. There must be some difficult-to-find emulator bug that is causing issues when running commands under TSS. Feel free to check it out. -- Eric Message: 33 Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2016 20:51:28 -0800 From: Zane Healy To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Subject: Re: Any word on the Multics revival front? Message-ID: <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88 at aracnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Mar 11, 2016, at 6:22 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > > OI hadn't checked on Multics progress in quite a while. Yesterday I > discovered that the DPS-8/M emulator at: > > https://SourceForge.net/projects/dps8m/ > > is far enough along to boot Multics. I thought some folks on this list > might be interested in it. What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. I used to be able configure all the IOP?s, IOM?s, CPU?s, etc. from memory, power them up, and boot GCOS-8. Zane From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:49:56 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 10:49:56 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Kevin Monceaux wrote: > On Fri, Mar 11, 2016 at 08:51:28PM -0800, Zane Healy wrote: > > > What I?d like to know is if any copies of GCOS-8 exist in the wild. > > That?s what I?d personally really like to boot on the emulator. > > I would too. I've always been curious about Honeywell OSes. Well, I'm > curious about any mainframe OSes I've never had contact with, which is most > of them. I currently work as an IBM z/OS operator, so I'm mostly familiar > with IBM OSes. I went to college briefly at Lamar University in Beaumont, > TX in '88-'89. Sadly I dropped out during my second semester. The > computer > science department had an overworked VAX 11/750. I worked as a volunteer > operator on that system. I heard the engineering department had a > Honeywell > mainframe. There was one Honeywell terminal room in the computer science > building that was used by a FORTRAN programming class. The doorway to that > terminal room was the closest I ever got to the campus's Honeywell. I > don't > know what model it was, or what OS it ran. I still regret not finding out > more about it while I was there. And that has made me especially curious > about Honeywell OSes. > > Multics includes a GCOS (6 I think) emulator which allows some GCOS programs to run under Multics. (The GCOS emulator copies the GCOS program to a segment, and executes the segment in BAR mode with an offset of 0; the GCOS application does OS calls with the MME (Master Mode Entry) instruction. The GCOS emulator intercepts the MME calls with Multics exception handler, deciphers what the call wants, does it, and continues the GCOS program. Several of the GCOS applications provided as part of the Multics distribution work; such as the DN355 cross assembler. (Let's see: running a cross assembler under a GCOS simulator running under Multics, which is running on emulated hardware. ). There is a also the GCOS TSS subsystem which is an interactive programming environment supporting several languages (Multics includes the BASIC and FORTRAN runtimes). Sadly, there remain some emulator bugs that are causing some failures under TSS; and lacking the source code for TSS, it is proving to be an intractable issue. -- Charles From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sat Mar 12 12:57:09 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 13:57:09 -0500 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... Message-ID: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> and for horrible deep level maint. I would imagine they would be useful.... they look like something too complex to let operations level people diddle with... but are these used with exactly WHICH Honeywell system? If we are going to display them need to tell the right story in the museum. Ed# In a message dated 3/12/2016 7:44:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these were hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work the same on a Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only time they were really used was if you split a 2 x CPU system into 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the memory configuration from interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you could IPL from the console. Dave From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com [mailto:COURYHOUSE at aol.com] Sent: 12 March 2016 11:53 To: jws at jwsss.com Cc: spacewar at gmail.com; dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; charles.unix.pro at gmail.com; jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; Kevin at RawFedDogs.net; healyzh at aracnet.com; couryhouse at aol.com; couryhouse.smecc at gmail.com Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc ok sent to all the people cc on the multics stuff.. will not go though on main listserv probably here are some of the panels think there is more there are at least 2 of each type one set will make display her at smecc museum in az the other set??? maybe someone want to wire into an emulator <<>> aside from a little dust and bad lighting these things look like they were pretty unused thanks ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/) From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 13:20:32 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:20:32 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... In-Reply-To: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> References: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> Message-ID: In order to qualify as a GCOS-8 Operator I was required to know how to configure all of these from memory, so I could configure and cold-boot the system from scratch. As a Systems Analyst, I never touched them. We had two DPS-8 mainframes. One was a single CPU Development system, that at night we could do whatever we wanted with, for training. The other was the 4-CPU production system. Zane > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:57 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > > and for horrible deep level maint. I would imagine they would be useful.... > > they look like something too complex to let operations level people diddle with... > but are these used with exactly WHICH Honeywell system? If we are going to display them need to tell the right story in the museum. > Ed# > > > In a message dated 3/12/2016 7:44:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: > The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these were hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work the same on a Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only time they were really used was if you split a 2 x CPU system into 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the memory configuration from interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you could IPL from the console. > > > > Dave > > > > From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com [mailto:COURYHOUSE at aol.com] > Sent: 12 March 2016 11:53 > To: jws at jwsss.com > Cc: spacewar at gmail.com; dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; charles.unix.pro at gmail.com; jwsmail at jwsss.com; cctalk at classiccmp.org; Kevin at RawFedDogs.net; healyzh at aracnet.com; couryhouse at aol.com; couryhouse.smecc at gmail.com > Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc > > > > ok sent to all the people cc on the multics stuff.. will not go though on main listserv probably > > here are some of the panels think there is more there are at least 2 of each type > > one set will make display her at smecc museum in az the other set??? maybe someone want to wire into an emulator <<>> > > aside from a little dust and bad lighting these things look like they were pretty unused thanks ed# www.smecc.org > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > From jwsmail at jwsss.com Sat Mar 12 13:21:07 2016 From: jwsmail at jwsss.com (jim s) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:21:07 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... In-Reply-To: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> References: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> Message-ID: <56E46C23.8080103@jwsss.com> What is the provenance / source of the panels? Mine came from an acquisition by Nick Allen from a collection in Georgia. I believe there was a Multics installation in Atlanta they were removed from. The panels on the 6180 at USL were all inside side access panels for one of the rows of hardware boxes. One box panel was usually exposed with the door removed, but it could be closed up. There were problems which required access to one of the panels frequently in operations, so it was seldom closed. We probably could get access to Dockmaster with some advance arrangement and good will on the part of the CHM when they have time to arrange access to the storage to which it was moved to see actual installed panels. I agree, the black panel has about the only interesting display. +David Griffith I might also suggest that once David Griffith finishes porting the PDP 10 Panda panel and has that design working and integrated that there may be enough blink'n lights there to display a satisfying 6180 display on a normal desktop case. the advantage is that it is at least already 36 bits and has some of the nonsense of having that bit count worked out already. I'd think we (someone) could fork and add a second bank of lights, or use two of the Panda usb devices to put out a lot of information about a 72 bit 6180. His main problem now is with interfacing and coding PDP 10 assembly code which is obviously not useful for re-purposing it for Multics use anyway, and is internal to SIMh PDP10 emulation. If a lot of people who are interested in blinking Multics Honeywell 6180 displays were interested it would contribute a lot to him selling out a run of his board kits. thanks Jim On 3/12/2016 10:57 AM, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > and for horrible deep level maint. I would imagine they would > be useful.... > they look like something too complex to let operations level > people diddle with... > but are these used with exactly WHICH Honeywell system? If we > are going to display them need to tell the right story in the museum. > Ed# > In a message dated 3/12/2016 7:44:50 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > dave.g4ugm at gmail.com writes: > > The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these > were hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work > the same on a Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only > time they were really used was if you split a 2 x CPU system into > 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the memory configuration from > interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you could IPL from the > console. > > Dave > > *From:*COURYHOUSE at aol.com [mailto:COURYHOUSE at aol.com] > *Sent:* 12 March 2016 11:53 > *To:* jws at jwsss.com > *Cc:* spacewar at gmail.com; dave.g4ugm at gmail.com; > charles.unix.pro at gmail.com; jwsmail at jwsss.com; > cctalk at classiccmp.org; Kevin at RawFedDogs.net; healyzh at aracnet.com; > couryhouse at aol.com; couryhouse.smecc at gmail.com > *Subject:* Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in > this message folks -smecc > > ok sent to all the people cc on the multics stuff.. will not go > though on main listserv probably > > here are some of the panels think there is more there are at > least 2 of each type > > one set will make display her at smecc museum in az the other > set??? maybe someone want to wire into an emulator <<>> > > aside from a little dust and bad lighting these things look > like they were pretty unused thanks ed# www.smecc.org > > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 13:23:33 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:23:33 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... In-Reply-To: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> References: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:57 AM, wrote: > and for horrible deep level maint. I would imagine they would be > useful.... > > they look like something too complex to let operations level people > diddle with... > but are these used with exactly WHICH Honeywell system? If we > are going to display them need to tell the right story in the museum. > Ed# > If the registers A and Q are 36 bit, then it is from the GE-600 line, which over time included the 615, 625, 635, 645, 655. GE sold the line off to Honeywell where it became the Honeywell 6000 series: 6025, 6030, 6040, 6050, 6070, 6080, 6180. After Honeywell merged the line with Bull, the machines were named (at various times) Level 66, Level68, DPS-8, DPS-8M, DPS-88, DPS-90, DPS-9000. So 'GE-600 series' is a safe bet. If one of the panels has a section labeled 'Appending Unit', then it was a Multics machine, GE-645, DPS-8M, or (I think) 6040/6080/6180. If you want a better estimate, I can ask some of the Multicians to look at the pictures; or, if you know what site the panels came from, there exists pretty good documentation about what was at which sites. -- Charles From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 12 13:26:45 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:26:45 -0800 Subject: AM-100 board set Message-ID: <56E46D75.4040403@bitsavers.org> http://www.ebay.com/itm/201536498192 FYI (esp Cameron) I was the buyer. The instruction decoder will be decapped, and the microcode roms send to Eric Smith for reading From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 13:38:14 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:38:14 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... In-Reply-To: <56E46C23.8080103@jwsss.com> References: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> <56E46C23.8080103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 11:21 AM, jim s wrote: > What is the provenance / source of the panels? > > Mine came from an acquisition by Nick Allen from a collection in Georgia. > I believe there was a Multics installation in Atlanta they were removed > from. > > Multics site: SCSI. Southern Company Services, Inc., Atlanta GA. Nuclear fuel inventory. Installed 1982. (2 L68, 4 MSU0451, 4 MSU0501) 2 Level 68 CPUs, 4 MSU0451 disk drives (309 kg, removable pack, 156 Million 9 bit bytes), 2 MSU0501 disk drives (non-removable pack, 1101 Million 9 bit bytes) The panels on the 6180 at USL were all inside side access panels for one of > the rows of hardware boxes. One box panel was usually exposed with the door > removed, but it could be closed up. There were problems which required > access to one of the panels frequently in operations, so it was seldom > closed. > > We probably could get access to Dockmaster with some advance arrangement > and good will on the part of the CHM when they have time to arrange access > to the storage to which it was moved to see actual installed panels. > > I agree, the black panel has about the only interesting display. > > +David Griffith > > I might also suggest that once David Griffith finishes porting the PDP 10 > Panda panel and has that design working and integrated that there may be > enough blink'n lights there to display a satisfying 6180 display on a > normal desktop case. > > the advantage is that it is at least already 36 bits and has some of the > nonsense of having that bit count worked out already. I'd think we > (someone) could fork and add a second bank of lights, or use two of the > Panda usb devices to put out a lot of information about a 72 bit 6180. > > His main problem now is with interfacing and coding PDP 10 assembly code > which is obviously not useful for re-purposing it for Multics use anyway, > and is internal to SIMh PDP10 emulation. > > If a lot of people who are interested in blinking Multics Honeywell 6180 > displays were interested it would contribute a lot to him selling out a run > of his board kits. > > I don't think there is that much interest, but I'll keep a weather eye out. Interfacing to beaglebone would be simpler for me, as I already have the infrastructure in-place for my simulated display. (All of the needed data is in a shared memory segment, a standalone program just scrapes the data and sends it out.) -- Charles From healyzh at aracnet.com Sat Mar 12 13:49:14 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 11:49:14 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:49 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > There is a also the GCOS TSS subsystem which is an interactive programming > environment supporting several languages (Multics includes the BASIC and > FORTRAN runtimes). Sadly, there remain some emulator bugs that are causing > some failures under TSS; and lacking the source code for TSS, it is proving > to be an intractable issue. > > -- Charles That would almost be enough for me from the sounds of things. Too bad there are issues. I don?t suppose there is Waterloo C? That was a painful way to try to learn C programming. :-) Definitely not K&R. Zane From eric at swenson.org Sat Mar 12 14:00:49 2016 From: eric at swenson.org (Eric Swenson) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:00:49 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <530B804D-BE04-4497-96F2-71292F7B423C@swenson.org> Multics does have a C compiler ? it may have been developed at Waterloo (or Calgary?). I just checked the pnotice and see that it is copyright Honeywell and AT&T. It is pretty lame and the run-time library is (obviously) ancient. It includes a c preprocessor, a curses library, make, lint, and a few unix-like commands. ? Eric > On Mar 12, 2016, at 11:49 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > >> On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:49 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: >> >> There is a also the GCOS TSS subsystem which is an interactive programming >> environment supporting several languages (Multics includes the BASIC and >> FORTRAN runtimes). Sadly, there remain some emulator bugs that are causing >> some failures under TSS; and lacking the source code for TSS, it is proving >> to be an intractable issue. >> >> -- Charles > > That would almost be enough for me from the sounds of things. Too bad there are issues. I don?t suppose there is Waterloo C? That was a painful way to try to learn C programming. :-) Definitely not K&R. > > Zane > > > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 14:06:05 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:06:05 -0800 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 11:49 AM, Zane Healy wrote: > > > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:49 AM, Charles Anthony < > charles.unix.pro at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > There is a also the GCOS TSS subsystem which is an interactive > programming > > environment supporting several languages (Multics includes the BASIC and > > FORTRAN runtimes). Sadly, there remain some emulator bugs that are > causing > > some failures under TSS; and lacking the source code for TSS, it is > proving > > to be an intractable issue. > > > > -- Charles > > That would almost be enough for me from the sounds of things. Too bad > there are issues. I don?t suppose there is Waterloo C? That was a painful > way to try to learn C programming. :-) Definitely not K&R. > > I don't know the origins of the Multics C compiler; we don't have the sources. Grepping the executable yields: PCC/PCCrx UNIX 6.X I don't know my earlier C compiler history, but I;m guessing 'Portable C Compiler" I don't believe that TSS has a C subsystem. -- Charles From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 14:13:04 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave G4UGM) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 20:13:04 -0000 Subject: Any word on the Multics revival front? In-Reply-To: References: <8dd2d95c0911111044m2c159e71y50e35eb1ff20e8ff@mail.gmail.com> <20160311142259.GA18243@RawFedDogs.net> <1D0736B9-F398-40BC-AA8E-8DAF80A62C88@aracnet.com> <20160312183710.GA1856@RawFedDogs.net> Message-ID: <02f701d17c9b$961e5380$c25afa80$@gmail.com> > > > Multics includes a GCOS (6 I think) emulator which allows some GCOS > programs to run under Multics. (The GCOS emulator copies the GCOS > program to a segment, and executes the segment in BAR mode with an > offset of 0; the GCOS application does OS calls with the MME (Master Mode > Entry) instruction. The GCOS emulator intercepts the MME calls with Multics > exception handler, deciphers what the call wants, does it, and continues the > GCOS program. I assume NOT GCOS 6 as that ran on the DPS6 mini and would need instruction emulation as well as MME. Most likely GCOS 3, usually just known as GCOS which was the operation system that ran on the GE600, GE600, L66/L6000/DPS300, i.e. the hardware from which the multics machines were derived. MME is/was the equivalent of the IBM SVC (supervisor call) instruction... .. not surprised it runs more quickly. GCOS 3 is only a swapping environment AKA OS MVT. Multics is true virtual Same effect could be observed on IBM Mainframe. Running DOS VSE under VM/370. It ran faster... > > Several of the GCOS applications provided as part of the Multics distribution > work; such as the DN355 cross assembler. (Let's see: running a cross > assembler under a GCOS simulator running under Multics, which is running > on emulated hardware. ). If the instruction set is similar it is not really that contrived. The DN355 cross assembler is written in L66 code. Multics just needs to emulate the system calls. Just about the same as running MVT programs under VM or MTS on Hercules. For really weird try running the IBM1401 emulator on Hercules on X64... > > There is a also the GCOS TSS subsystem which is an interactive programming > environment supporting several languages (Multics includes the BASIC and > FORTRAN runtimes). Sadly, there remain some emulator bugs that are > causing some failures under TSS; and lacking the source code for TSS, it is > proving to be an intractable issue. I wonder if my memory can be jogged. Sadly I no longer have the materials from the TSS internals course I went on in Holland... > > -- Charles Dave From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 12 14:32:50 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 15:32:50 -0500 (EST) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160312203250.A304218C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > The enormous number of configuration switches is due to the extreme > modularity of the system. ... Each bank could taken out of service The really amazing thing (considering the vintage) was that that reconfiguration could be done with the power on, and the system running! E.g. MIT had a two-CPU three-memory system; at night, they used (while the system was running!) to take off one of the CPUs and a memory box, bring them up as a separate development system, and in the morning, add the 'borrowed' CPU and memory back onto the main system - without ever shutting the main system down! People using it at the time could't even tell it had undergone a mitosis, and then a merge. Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 14:50:05 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 12:50:05 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160312203250.A304218C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160312203250.A304218C0CB@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:32 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > The enormous number of configuration switches is due to the extreme > > modularity of the system. ... Each bank could taken out of service > > The really amazing thing (considering the vintage) was that that > reconfiguration could be done with the power on, and the system running! > > E.g. MIT had a two-CPU three-memory system; at night, they used (while the > system was running!) to take off one of the CPUs and a memory box, bring > them > up as a separate development system, and in the morning, add the 'borrowed' > CPU and memory back onto the main system - without ever shutting the main > system down! People using it at the time could't even tell it had > undergone a > mitosis, and then a merge. > > The ISOLTS (Isolated Testing Subsystem) performs CPU diagnostics on multi-CPU systems. It dynamically reconfigures Multics to take the one of the CPUs offline and to reserve a bank of memory in one the SCUs (the memory is still visible to Multics, but reserved for ISOLTs use). The offline CPU is hung at a 'Delay until interrupt' instruction. The memory configuration switches are then set on the offline CPU so that the reserved block of memory appears to that CPU as a 128K block of memory starting at location 0. ISOSLTS when installs a bootstrap loader in the reserved memory block, with an entry at the interrupt handler vector. ISOLTS sends an interrupt to the offline CPU, the interrupt vector transfers to the bootstrap loader, which sets a flag in memory indicating that all of that reconfiguration was done correctly. ISOLTS sees the flag set, and then starts loading tests into memory and running them by setting the interrupt vector and interrupting the CPU, and watching memory to see the test results. When the tests are done, the CPU configuration switches are set back, the SCU memory is released, and Multics brings the CPU back online. I get bloody impressed just watching it on the emulator; doing it in a production environment must have been spectacular. -- Charles Noel > From roland.schregle at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 06:34:32 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Roland Schregle) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 13:34:32 +0100 Subject: OT: lenses (Was: Front Panels - PDP8 and PDP 11 In-Reply-To: References: <19E95A26-B02E-433F-B475-C08B2966902D@gmail.com> Message-ID: <9BE4DAD9-9D0D-4F6A-B110-F9621799D044@gmail.com> On 12/03/2016, at 12:54 PM, Marco Gariboldi wrote: > 2016-03-12 0:06 GMT+01:00 Roland Schregle : > >> >> Have the Tessar on a 3.5B (aka MX-EVS). Excellent expect when wide open as >> mentioned here, though I wouldn't call it entry level. I think Zeiss made >> an earlier, sub-standard lens (Biotar ?) for Rollei before they could >> deliver 75mm Tessars. > > Biotar sub-standard? Germans happily used them on their film cameras, > rather extensively during WW II. I think you might be thinking of the Jena > (GDR) Biometar instead, which later became known as Pentacon. Hi Marco, could have been the Biometar. I recall reading about it in Prochnow's Rollei Report, but I don't have that at hand now. >> Somebody mentioned the Zeiss ZM line for Leica. Have the f/2.8 35mm Biogon >> and the f/2 50mm Planar for my M3 and M2. These perform very close to the >> original Leitz glass, but are at least affordable for mere mortals. > > > Indeed and, more importantly, I'm very happy with my Biogon. Plus, that > blue orb also looks nice. And it doesn't have those silly focussing tabs Leitz has on their lens. I much prefer a focussing ring you can actually grab. My lens are 2nd hand and black though, and so look a bit odd on the old silver Leicas. Been looking to replace them with silver ones, but they show up less often on eBay. --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] From roland.schregle at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 06:45:11 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Roland Schregle) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 13:45:11 +0100 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi James, FWIW, I have slightly more recent Sun 4/330 (SparcServer 330) in my basement in Germany looking for a new home. Not familiar with the 260 and how they differ tho. --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] On 12/03/2016, at 9:56 AM, James Vess wrote: > Howdy there folks, > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for > sale or possibly even loan? > > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just > looking to recoup lost time :) > > Thanks, > James From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:33:42 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 10:33:42 -0800 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <092d01d17c8c$c6332000$52996000$@gmail.com> References: <1d4dfc.1ef1c313.44155d35@aol.com> <01ae01d17c6d$b74a14a0$25de3de0$@gmail.com> <092d01d17c8c$c6332000$52996000$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:27 AM, Dave Wade wrote: > Copied back to the main list?. > > > > OK on the L66 machines I worked on we always kept the doors closed, there > was an application, can?t remember its name, we ran on a VDU by the system > console that displayed the Job Queues, State of Active Jobs, CPU > utilization etc. There was also a MIPS meter on the console. They were very > modular, and as the store was in the SCU?s on a multi-cpu system you also > needed cross coupled cache cables to invalidate the CPU cache when the > other CPU overwrote a word in main sore that it also had cached. > > > I think the cross-coupled cache cables post-date the code and documentation I have; I believe that Multics does a inter-CPU interrupts to do cache invalidation. SInce the emulator doesn't implement the WAM cache, cache coherency isn't a problem, and one of my low priority projects is determining if Multics can use the knowledge of no-caching to to reduce overhead. (Ie. don't signal invalid cache.) > Interleave was also interesting, so you could configure interleave memory > word by word so alternate accesses went to the ?other? SCU. A guy we had in > at NERC Bidston (was www.pol.ac.uk), Vince Martin I think his name was > who had worked in the Honeywell performance labs, I believe in Scottsville. > Arizona said this would give much better performance. He also said the big > bottle neck on the L66 was memory bandwidth. With the fast 6250 BPI tapes > he said the tape drives could drive the memory flat out, locking the CPU > out?. > > I believe that. -- Charles From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 12:27:02 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 18:27:02 -0000 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: References: <1d4dfc.1ef1c313.44155d35@aol.com> <01ae01d17c6d$b74a14a0$25de3de0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <092d01d17c8c$c6332000$52996000$@gmail.com> Copied back to the main list?. OK on the L66 machines I worked on we always kept the doors closed, there was an application, can?t remember its name, we ran on a VDU by the system console that displayed the Job Queues, State of Active Jobs, CPU utilization etc. There was also a MIPS meter on the console. They were very modular, and as the store was in the SCU?s on a multi-cpu system you also needed cross coupled cache cables to invalidate the CPU cache when the other CPU overwrote a word in main sore that it also had cached. Interleave was also interesting, so you could configure interleave memory word by word so alternate accesses went to the ?other? SCU. A guy we had in at NERC Bidston (was www.pol.ac.uk ), Vince Martin I think his name was who had worked in the Honeywell performance labs, I believe in Scottsville. Arizona said this would give much better performance. He also said the big bottle neck on the L66 was memory bandwidth. With the fast 6250 BPI tapes he said the tape drives could drive the memory flat out, locking the CPU out?. Dave From: Charles Anthony [mailto:charles.unix.pro at gmail.com] Sent: 12 March 2016 15:27 To: Dave G4UGM Cc: Ed Sharpe ; jws at jwsss.com; spacewar at gmail.com; jwsmail at jwsss.com; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts ; Kevin Monceaux ; healyzh at aracnet.com; couryhouse.smecc at gmail.com Subject: Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 6:44 AM, Dave G4UGM > wrote: The panels would be pretty much un-used Unlike 360 panels these were hidden behind doors for most of the time. Assuming the work the same on a Multics box as on a regular L66/DPS box the only time they were really used was if you split a 2 x CPU system into 2 x 1 CPU system, or changed the memory configuration from interleaved to non-interleaved. Pretty sure you could IPL from the console. [My understanding; I wasn't there] The display panels changed over time; later models had a minicomputer with management software instead of the big panels. Early models: The CPU cabinet had two doors, with the panels on the inside of the door, so that opening the door swung the panel out. (There were probably additional panels exposed, but I'm not sure.) One the panels was the CPU status, showing the contents of the registers (A, Q, PPR, TSR, Xn, PARn), the major CPU states (fetch, execute, interrupt, fault), and major status bits (Append Unit, Operation Unit, Decimal Unit). I understand it was common practice to leave that door open for it visual appeal and highly visible 'things are running' status (including the 'idle crawl' a distinctive pattern display when Multics was idle. The panels labeled SCU are System Control Units; they were separate cabinets. The SCU's contained the memory and handled all communication between CPUs and between CPUs and IO controllers. The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor). The enormous number of configuration switches is due to the extreme modularity of the system. Core memory was in the SCUs, not the CPUs; each SCU could have a varying amount of memory, in up to 4 banks of varying sizes. Each bank could taken out of service, so defining the addressing of the memory in each SCU was complex. Each CPU had to have a matching memory configuration panel so that it knew which SCU to talk to access a particular memory location. Each CPU had to be cabled to each SCU. Since the IOMs did DMA, the memory configuration panels are duplicated there as well, and each IOM cabled to each SCU. The only display panel I would want to utilize is the CPU status; the other panels display information which the emulator does not necessarily have and do not have the 'wow' factor. -- Charles From r3trohub at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 16:52:13 2016 From: r3trohub at gmail.com (Vintage Perfect) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:52:13 +0000 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... Message-ID: Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html From tmfdmike at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 17:01:52 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 12:01:52 +1300 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:45 AM, Roland Schregle wrote: > Hi James, > > FWIW, I have slightly more recent Sun 4/330 (SparcServer 330) in my basement in Germany looking for a new home. Not familiar with the 260 and how they differ tho. Oh... that's one of the last VME machines? I'm hopefully going to need one of those at some point as a front-end for my Connection Machine... Germany to NZ is quite a haul though! Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From dave at 661.org Sat Mar 12 17:10:56 2016 From: dave at 661.org (David Griffith) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:10:56 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks... In-Reply-To: <56E46C23.8080103@jwsss.com> References: <1da462.310ccfa6.4415c085@aol.com> <56E46C23.8080103@jwsss.com> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, jim s wrote: > What is the provenance / source of the panels? > > Mine came from an acquisition by Nick Allen from a collection in Georgia.? I > believe there was a Multics installation in Atlanta they were removed from. > > The panels on the 6180 at USL were all inside side access panels for one of > the rows of hardware boxes. One box panel was usually exposed with the door > removed, but it could be closed up.? There were problems which required > access to one of the panels frequently in operations, so it was seldom > closed. > > We probably could get access to Dockmaster with some advance arrangement and > good will on the part of the CHM when they have time to arrange access to > the storage to which? it was moved to see actual installed panels.? > > I agree, the black panel has about the only interesting display. > > +David Griffith > > I might also suggest that once David Griffith finishes porting the PDP 10 > Panda panel and has that design working and integrated that there may be > enough blink'n lights there to display a satisfying 6180 display on a normal > desktop case. > > the advantage is that it is at least already 36 bits and has some of the > nonsense of having that bit count worked out already.? I'd think we > (someone) could fork and add a second bank of lights, or use two of the > Panda usb devices to put out a lot of information about a 72 bit 6180. > > His main problem now is with interfacing and coding PDP 10 assembly code > which is obviously not useful for re-purposing it for Multics use anyway, > and is internal to SIMh PDP10 emulation. > > If a lot of people who are interested in blinking Multics Honeywell 6180 > displays were interested it would contribute a lot to him selling out a run > of his board kits. Can I get a picture of the black panel you're referring to? I already have a two-row variant of the Panda Display. It exists as a branch at https://github.com/DavidGriffith/panda-display. The single-row one was designed as a drop-in replacement for the parallel port version. The layout of the double-row one can be more flexible. What sort of stuff would like to see? As-is, the firmware cannot support more than one Panda Display per host machine. The means of doing this seems rather tricky. I suppose a pair of daisy chain ports can be added to the board design. Also, the interfacing work is with the klh10 emulator, not SIMh, because the former already has hooks for running blinkenlights. -- David Griffith dave at 661.org From cctalk at fahimi.net Sat Mar 12 17:24:20 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 15:24:20 -0800 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for $600 to make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of seems self defeating. I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a look..... -Ali From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 12 17:50:23 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:50:23 +0000 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: <56E4AB3F.1000203@btinternet.com> On 12/03/2016 23:24, Ali wrote: >> Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine >> for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for $600 to make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of seems self defeating. > > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a look..... > > -Ali > The view from afar. Send in your Tonto (Indian Scout) . See if he thinks its ok. Then after repeating the collectors mantra ' If it looks too good to be true it usually is' three times Go hitch up as many waggons as possible, head for the mine and clean it out. Rod Smallwood From north at alum.mit.edu Sat Mar 12 17:55:06 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 15:55:06 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> Well looks like I have been living in the past ... I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) and have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it appears has supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at least by comment dates). I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one should expect. However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to work as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a TU58 and then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 protocol supports up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it seems that the SIMH TU58 only supports a physical TU58 tape image of 256KB. I'll have to do some more experiments and read some code to see what is going on. If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the utility of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an (up to) 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. Limiting simh to only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical limitation of TU58 cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of the TU58 serial line protocol. Don On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: > I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by SIMH without the below error. > > I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I get home tonight: > > DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. > > The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). > > Rich > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>> Altho the required serial interface >>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>> serial interface has never been emulated. >> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >> >> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >> TDC: creating new file >> TDC: buffering file in memory >> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >> sim> b rq0 >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .init dd0: >> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >> >> .copy dd.sys dd0: >> Files copied: >> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >> **** Copying some files ***** >> >> >> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >> Files copied: >> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >> >> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >> .boot dd0: >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .dir >> >> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >> 316 Free blocks >> >> .boot du0: >> >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> . >> >> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >> sim> exit >> Goodbye >> TDC: writing buffer to file >> >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >> TDC: buffering file in memory >> sim> b tdc0 >> >> >> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >> sim> >> >> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >> >> >> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >> >> E11>assign tt1: dda: >> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >> E11>b tt1: >> >> RT-11SJ V05.03 >> >> .dir >> >> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >> 346 Free blocks >> >> . >> >> >> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >> real hardware. >> >> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >> enabled. >> >> /Mattis >> >> >> >>> Don >>> From north at alum.mit.edu Sat Mar 12 17:58:06 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 15:58:06 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> Whoops slight correction .. . the TU58 protocol supports a 16b block number, so it is 65536 blocks of 512B, or 32MB maximum. On 3/12/2016 3:55 PM, Don North wrote: > Well looks like I have been living in the past ... > > I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) and > have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it appears has > supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at least by comment > dates). > > I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one should > expect. > > However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the > virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to work > as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a TU58 and > then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 protocol supports > up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it seems that the SIMH TU58 > only supports a physical TU58 tape image of 256KB. I'll have to do some more > experiments and read some code to see what is going on. > > If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the utility > of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an (up to) > 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. Limiting simh to > only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical limitation of TU58 > cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of the TU58 serial line > protocol. > > Don > > On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the beta >> version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by SIMH >> without the below error. >> >> I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I get >> home tonight: >> >> DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. >> >> The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). >> >> Rich >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> >>>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>>> Altho the required serial interface >>>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>>> serial interface has never been emulated. >>> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >>> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >>> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >>> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >>> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >>> >>> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>> sim> set tdc enable >>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>> TDC: creating new file >>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >>> sim> b rq0 >>> >>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>> >>> .init dd0: >>> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >>> >>> .copy dd.sys dd0: >>> Files copied: >>> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >>> **** Copying some files ***** >>> >>> >>> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >>> Files copied: >>> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >>> >>> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >>> .boot dd0: >>> >>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>> >>> .dir >>> >>> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >>> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >>> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >>> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >>> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >>> 316 Free blocks >>> >>> .boot du0: >>> >>> >>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>> >>> . >>> >>> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >>> sim> exit >>> Goodbye >>> TDC: writing buffer to file >>> >>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>> sim> set tdc enable >>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>> sim> b tdc0 >>> >>> >>> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >>> sim> >>> >>> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >>> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >>> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >>> >>> >>> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >>> >>> E11>assign tt1: dda: >>> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >>> E11>b tt1: >>> >>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>> >>> .dir >>> >>> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >>> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >>> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >>> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >>> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >>> 346 Free blocks >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >>> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >>> real hardware. >>> >>> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >>> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >>> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >>> enabled. >>> >>> /Mattis >>> >>> >>> >>>> Don >>>> > > From rsponholtz at hotmail.com Sat Mar 12 21:54:20 2016 From: rsponholtz at hotmail.com (Ross Sponholtz) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:54:20 -0600 Subject: Introduction and Alpha Micro AM-1200 query Message-ID: Hi Everyone, I just subscribed on the cctalk mailing list, I thought I?d introduce myself.? The first computer that I ever used was an Alpha Micro AM-100 at my high school, where I had the extra project of figuring out Pascal and explaining it to the teacher.? I?m pretty excited about Eric and Al?s decapping project ? I?m imagining a FPGA-based AM-100 emulator in the future! In fact, I recently picked up an Alpha Micro AM-1200 that I?d like to get running.?It?s giving a selftest error indicating a memory problem that hopefully I can figure out how to track down. After that, I?ll need to get an OS on an appropriate disk (I don?t think the disk is working). Does anyone here have any info or documentation on these machines, or maybe even some software? The info out on the ?net on these things seems pretty minimal. Back to the intro: I went to University of Colorado Boulder for Computer Science back in the mid-80s, graduating in 88 after doing a lot of work under VMS and various Unix machines.? I now work for Microsoft (in cloud pre-sales tech), and have a small collection of old computers ? AM-1200, Microvax, Mac SE and HP 9000/300.? I recently picked up a nice ADM-3a that I got working by replacing some RAM chips. ? Anyway, thanks for your help, and love the conversation! Ross Sponholtz rsponholtz at hotmail.com From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:04:50 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:04:50 -0600 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: <56E4455A.1010704@bitsavers.org> References: <56E4455A.1010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I honestly am a bit surprised, as other dealings I've had with groups that focus on technology typically are not as welcoming or responsive. Thanks! It's a great start to my future w/ classiccmp ;) Al, I'm in Texas so I'm not too far away. Given the unit's size, I'd need to do local pickup ( unless you have some super sweet freight deal that I'm unaware of ) and that shouldn't be an issue? I've been meaning to do a road trip that direction or I have a friend who would likely be willing to run by and grab it ( He's in Utah ) on a weekend. Just let me know what you have and what you're looking for in return and I'll see what I can do! On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 10:35 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 3/12/16 12:56 AM, James Vess wrote: > >> Howdy there folks, >> >> I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space >> issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled >> I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. >> >> > Where are you? > > I have a pair of 280 series servers in racks and a 3 or 4/260 that I'm in > the process of pulling out of storage along with a LOT of 9u boards in the > SF bay area. They are going to be available before April. > > I am not willing to handle shipping beyond having someone pick them up. > > > From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:16:41 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:16:41 -0600 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Thanks Mattis! I'm going to give him a follow. It's been hard to find these systems or even cards anymore on Ebay, it went from a few then fell to none. I usually filter international though, so I don't have any insight there. Part of why I really appreciate you providing that! Maybe the spring Garage clean outs will get more that stuff flushed on to Ebay this year ;) Just in time for me to find a new system to require parts for. On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 4:08 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-03-12 9:56 GMT+01:00 James Vess : > > > Howdy there folks, > > > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > > > > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for > > sale or possibly even loan? > > > > There is someone in the UK that sells a lot of parts from a 4/2xx machine: > > http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/161997957466 > > /Mattis > > > > > > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just > > looking to recoup lost time :) > > > > Thanks, > > James > > > From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:25:41 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:25:41 -0600 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the systems listed? I would need to see enough interest to go do it though, as even though I'd love to get these and just play with them, but I wouldn't be able to keep them. I can't let myself go nuts collecting as I'm living the apartment life and I don't want to "have to sell" things when I don't want to due to space constraints or moving. On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine > > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html > > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next > systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for $600 to > make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of seems > self defeating. > > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a > look..... > > -Ali > > From spacewar at gmail.com Sat Mar 12 22:52:03 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:52:03 -0700 Subject: Type 270 disk file on PDP-6 Message-ID: I just was looking at the I/O device code assignments in the 1973 DECsystem-10 System Reference Manual, and happened to notice the entry for the Type 270 disk file used on the PDP-6. PDP-6 and PDP-10 device codes are three octal digits, of which the third digit can only be 0 or 4. The device code for the Type 270 is octal 270. Coincidence? :-) From north at alum.mit.edu Sat Mar 12 23:47:04 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 21:47:04 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> I've been doing some testing on the (new) SIMH TU58 device, and am finding that reading the boot block does not work. I have TU58 bootable images, and when I try and boot from them in SIMH they halt/crash. I adapted my PDP-11 M(312 TU58 boot code to a loadable SIMH image, and found that it appears that the TU58 boot command in SIMH (which should read block zero of the selected unit into memory locations 0-777(8)) is skipping over the first byte in the boot block (the 240(8) byte that is part of the NOP in the first word of every DEC bootstrap). If I dump the first section of the bootable .dks image I see: local[505] od -b -N512 -v tu58.dsk 0000000 240 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 0000020 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 0000040 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 0000060 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 0000100 000 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 0000120 003 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 but when I give the 'boot' opcode to the emulated TU58 in SIMH it returns: +0000: 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 +0020: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 +0040: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 +0060: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 000 +0100: 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 003 +0120: 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 152 By inspection the bytes are the same, just shifted down one location from where they should be, and the 240(8) byte in location zero is missing. So this is why 'boot tdc0' fails in the current SIMH on github. PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: b304d7f4 Disabling XQ TDC: buffering file in memory Debug output to "tdc.log" PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta Simulator Framework Capabilities: 32b data 32b addresses Ethernet Packet transports:PCAP:NAT:UDP Idle/Throttling support is available Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) support Asynchronous I/O support FrontPanel API Version 2 Host Platform: Compiler: GCC 5.3.0 Simulator Compiled: Mar 12 2016 at 16:36:37 Memory Access: Little Endian Memory Pointer Size: 32 bits Large File (>2GB) support SDL Video support: No Video Support RegEx support for EXPECT commands OS clock resolution: 1ms Time taken by msleep(1): 1ms OS: CYGWIN_NT-6.1-WOW lenovoS30w7 2.4.1(0.293/5/3) 2016-01-24 11:24 i686 Cygwin git commit id: b304d7f4 PDP-11 simulator configuration On 3/12/2016 3:58 PM, Don North wrote: > Whoops slight correction .. . the TU58 protocol supports a 16b block number, > so it is 65536 blocks of 512B, or 32MB maximum. > > On 3/12/2016 3:55 PM, Don North wrote: >> Well looks like I have been living in the past ... >> >> I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) and >> have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it appears has >> supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at least by comment >> dates). >> >> I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one should >> expect. >> >> However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the >> virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to work >> as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a TU58 and >> then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 protocol supports >> up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it seems that the SIMH TU58 >> only supports a physical TU58 tape image of 256KB. I'll have to do some more >> experiments and read some code to see what is going on. >> >> If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the >> utility of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an >> (up to) 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. Limiting >> simh to only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical limitation of >> TU58 cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of the TU58 serial >> line protocol. >> >> Don >> >> On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >>> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the >>> beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by >>> SIMH without the below error. >>> >>> I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I get >>> home tonight: >>> >>> DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. >>> >>> The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). >>> >>> Rich >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>>>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>>>> Altho the required serial interface >>>>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>>>> serial interface has never been emulated. >>>> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >>>> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >>>> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >>>> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >>>> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >>>> >>>> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>> TDC: creating new file >>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >>>> sim> b rq0 >>>> >>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>> >>>> .init dd0: >>>> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >>>> >>>> .copy dd.sys dd0: >>>> Files copied: >>>> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >>>> **** Copying some files ***** >>>> >>>> >>>> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>> Files copied: >>>> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >>>> >>>> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>> .boot dd0: >>>> >>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>> >>>> .dir >>>> >>>> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >>>> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >>>> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >>>> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >>>> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >>>> 316 Free blocks >>>> >>>> .boot du0: >>>> >>>> >>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >>>> sim> exit >>>> Goodbye >>>> TDC: writing buffer to file >>>> >>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>> sim> b tdc0 >>>> >>>> >>>> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >>>> sim> >>>> >>>> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >>>> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >>>> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >>>> >>>> >>>> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >>>> >>>> E11>assign tt1: dda: >>>> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >>>> E11>b tt1: >>>> >>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>> >>>> .dir >>>> >>>> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >>>> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >>>> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >>>> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >>>> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >>>> 346 Free blocks >>>> >>>> . >>>> >>>> >>>> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >>>> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >>>> real hardware. >>>> >>>> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >>>> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >>>> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >>>> enabled. >>>> >>>> /Mattis >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >> >> > > From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Mar 13 00:19:26 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 22:19:26 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> So I turned on full debug on the TDC device and I see the boot block is being read correctly (bytes A0,00,20,01,...) but in the register reads following that transfer the boot block to the PDP11 the first byte (A0) is never seen, only bytes 00,20,01,... So it appears to be a real bug in the TU58 SIMH implementation. I'd cross post this info to the SIMH mailing list, but for some reason I am unable to send to that mailing list, all my email gets rejected. Don DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: td_wr_o_buf() o_state=GETDATA, ibptr=1, ilen=2 DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: TX_BUF: DAT=0x0 DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet() Opcode=OPBOO(8) DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet(OPBOO) Unit=0 DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: TDC0 Boot Block Datalen: 00000200 DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0000A0 00 20 01 06 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .. ............. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0020 thru 002F same as above DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 0A 02 00 00 00 00 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0040 00 02 08 00 C6 15 00 60 05 00 C3 15 30 00 C2 15 .......`....0... DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0050 03 00 53 10 D1 0B C2 0A FC 02 E6 17 04 00 DF 15 ..S............. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0060 6A 00 04 00 C9 0B 4B 10 03 01 CB 1D C4 FF 96 25 j.....K........% DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0070 9F 15 04 00 F7 15 08 00 C8 FF C4 15 00 02 37 10 ..............7. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0080 BA FF E6 15 08 00 03 0A BF 0A A8 FF F7 09 E8 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0090 FF 0A A0 FF C3 15 04 04 FF 0B 96 FF F7 09 DC 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00A0 03 0A F7 09 EA 00 C3 00 C3 A5 10 00 04 03 CE 0A ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00B0 EA 02 D6 0B 58 01 D6 0B B7 0A 86 FF F7 25 28 00 ....X........%(. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00C0 80 FF 06 02 C2 1D 74 FF C1 1D 64 FF 5F 00 26 02 ......t...d._.&. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00D0 F7 09 96 00 02 0A C0 15 38 00 02 64 42 0B C1 8A ........8..dB... DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00E0 FC 02 88 10 F7 09 82 00 C0 15 38 00 03 14 F7 09 ..........8..... DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00F0 8A 00 C1 8A FB 80 F7 09 92 00 C3 A5 01 00 12 02 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0100 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 C1 45 00 FF 81 0C F7 09 7C 00 .......E......|. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0110 D4 10 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F9 02 F7 09 6E 00 C2 20 ...`B.......n.. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0120 EA 03 22 01 C3 A5 02 00 1E 02 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 .."............. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0130 C1 45 00 FF 81 8C F7 09 52 00 C3 A5 40 00 13 02 .E......R... at ... DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0140 C3 0B 11 81 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F7 09 3E 00 C2 60 .....`B.....>..` DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0150 42 0B C1 8A FA 02 C3 0B 06 81 F7 09 2E 00 C2 20 B.............. DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0160 03 02 77 00 52 FF 00 00 00 00 C1 9D CB FE C1 45 ..w.R..........E DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0170 00 FF 81 0C 81 0A 87 00 CF 09 CF 09 CF 09 FF 90 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0180 B4 FE C3 00 FF 8B AC FE FD 80 87 00 03 0A CF 09 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0190 FF 8B 9C FE FD 80 C5 1F 98 FE E5 81 43 D1 C3 00 ............C... DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01A0 87 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 ................ DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01C0 thru 01FF same as above DBG(930597)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) DBG(930597)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 DBG(930599)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) ... DBG(930763)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 DBG(930765)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) DBG(930765)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0DAT=0x00 <-----------------------DATA=00 DBG(930767)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) ... DBG(930943)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 DBG(930945)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) DBG(930945)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0 DAT=0x20 <-----------------------DATA=20 DBG(930947)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) DBG(930947)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 DBG(930949)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) ... On 3/12/2016 9:47 PM, Don North wrote: > I've been doing some testing on the (new) SIMH TU58 device, and am finding > that reading the boot block does not work. > > I have TU58 bootable images, and when I try and boot from them in SIMH they > halt/crash. > > I adapted my PDP-11 M(312 TU58 boot code to a loadable SIMH image, and found > that it appears that the TU58 boot command in SIMH (which should read block > zero of the selected unit into memory locations 0-777(8)) is skipping over the > first byte in the boot block (the 240(8) byte that is part of the NOP in the > first word of every DEC bootstrap). > > If I dump the first section of the bootable .dsk image I see: > > local[505] od -b -N512 -v tu58.dsk > 0000000 240 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > 0000020 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > 0000040 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > 0000060 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 > 0000100 000 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 > 0000120 003 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 > > but when I give the 'boot' opcode to the emulated TU58 in SIMH it returns: > > +0000: 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > +0020: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > +0040: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 > +0060: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 000 > +0100: 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 003 > +0120: 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 152 > > By inspection the bytes are the same, just shifted down one location from > where they should be, and the 240(8) byte in location zero is missing. > > So this is why 'boot tdc0' fails in the current SIMH on github. > > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: b304d7f4 > Disabling XQ > TDC: buffering file in memory > Debug output to "tdc.log" > PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta > Simulator Framework Capabilities: > 32b data > 32b addresses > Ethernet Packet transports:PCAP:NAT:UDP > Idle/Throttling support is available > Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) support > Asynchronous I/O support > FrontPanel API Version 2 > Host Platform: > Compiler: GCC 5.3.0 > Simulator Compiled: Mar 12 2016 at 16:36:37 > Memory Access: Little Endian > Memory Pointer Size: 32 bits > Large File (>2GB) support > SDL Video support: No Video Support > RegEx support for EXPECT commands > OS clock resolution: 1ms > Time taken by msleep(1): 1ms > OS: CYGWIN_NT-6.1-WOW lenovoS30w7 2.4.1(0.293/5/3) 2016-01-24 > 11:24 i686 Cygwin > git commit id: b304d7f4 > PDP-11 simulator configuration > > > > On 3/12/2016 3:58 PM, Don North wrote: >> Whoops slight correction .. . the TU58 protocol supports a 16b block number, >> so it is 65536 blocks of 512B, or 32MB maximum. >> >> On 3/12/2016 3:55 PM, Don North wrote: >>> Well looks like I have been living in the past ... >>> >>> I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) and >>> have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it appears >>> has supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at least by >>> comment dates). >>> >>> I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one >>> should expect. >>> >>> However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the >>> virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to work >>> as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a TU58 and >>> then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 protocol >>> supports up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it seems that the >>> SIMH TU58 only supports a physical TU58 tape image of 256KB. I'll have to do >>> some more experiments and read some code to see what is going on. >>> >>> If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the >>> utility of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an >>> (up to) 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. >>> Limiting simh to only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical >>> limitation of TU58 cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of the >>> TU58 serial line protocol. >>> >>> Don >>> >>> On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >>>> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the >>>> beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by >>>> SIMH without the below error. >>>> >>>> I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I >>>> get home tonight: >>>> >>>> DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. >>>> >>>> The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). >>>> >>>> Rich >>>> >>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>> >>>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>>> >>>>>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>>>>> Altho the required serial interface >>>>>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>>>>> serial interface has never been emulated. >>>>> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >>>>> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >>>>> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >>>>> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >>>>> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >>>>> >>>>> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>> TDC: creating new file >>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >>>>> sim> b rq0 >>>>> >>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>> >>>>> .init dd0: >>>>> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >>>>> >>>>> .copy dd.sys dd0: >>>>> Files copied: >>>>> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >>>>> **** Copying some files ***** >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>> Files copied: >>>>> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >>>>> >>>>> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>> .boot dd0: >>>>> >>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>> >>>>> .dir >>>>> >>>>> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >>>>> 316 Free blocks >>>>> >>>>> .boot du0: >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >>>>> sim> exit >>>>> Goodbye >>>>> TDC: writing buffer to file >>>>> >>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>> sim> b tdc0 >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >>>>> sim> >>>>> >>>>> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >>>>> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >>>>> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >>>>> >>>>> E11>assign tt1: dda: >>>>> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >>>>> E11>b tt1: >>>>> >>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>> >>>>> .dir >>>>> >>>>> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >>>>> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >>>>> 346 Free blocks >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >>>>> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >>>>> real hardware. >>>>> >>>>> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >>>>> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >>>>> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >>>>> enabled. >>>>> >>>>> /Mattis >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Don >>>>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Mar 13 01:14:45 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:14:45 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E51365.4040902@alum.mit.edu> Fixed! sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp sim> set tdc enable sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk sim> b tdc0 BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 REVISION: F0 BOOTED FROM DD0 124KW OF MEMORY UNIBUS SYSTEM RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! In file pdp11_td.c, comment out/delete line 1023 (red) "ctlr->rx_buf = ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++]; /* get first byte */" This would seem to be priming the read routine, but in fact it is discarding the first byte of the block zero bootstrap. Don case TD_OPBOO: if (ctlr->ibptr < 2) { /* whole packet read? */ ctlr->ilen = 2; ctlr->o_state = TD_GETDATA; /* get rest of packet */ return; } else { int8 *fbuf; int i; sim_debug (TDDEB_TRC, ctlr->dptr, "td_process_packet(OPBOO) Unit=%d\n", ctlr->ibuf[4]); ctlr->unitno = ctlr->ibuf[1]; fbuf = ctlr->uptr[ctlr->unitno].filebuf; ctlr->block = 0; ctlr->txsize = 0; ctlr->p_state = TD_READ2; ctlr->offset = 0; ctlr->obptr = 0; for (i=0; i < TD_NUMBY; i++) ctlr->obuf[i] = fbuf[i]; ctlr->olen = TD_NUMBY; // ctlr->rx_buf = ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++]; /* get first byte */ sim_data_trace(ctlr->dptr, &ctlr->uptr[ctlr->unitno], ctlr->obuf, "Boot Block Data", ctlr->olen, "", TDDEB_DAT); sim_activate (ctlr->uptr+ctlr->unitno, td_ctime);/* sched command */ } break; case TD_OPCNT: break; On 3/12/2016 10:19 PM, Don North wrote: > So I turned on full debug on the TDC device and I see the boot block is > being read correctly (bytes A0,00,20,01,...) but in the register reads > following that transfer the boot block to the PDP11 the first byte (A0) > is never seen, only bytes 00,20,01,... > > So it appears to be a real bug in the TU58 SIMH implementation. > > I'd cross post this info to the SIMH mailing list, but for some reason I > am unable to send to that mailing list, all my email gets rejected. > > Don > > DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: td_wr_o_buf() o_state=GETDATA, ibptr=1, ilen=2 > DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: TX_BUF: DAT=0x0 > DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet() Opcode=OPBOO(8) > DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet(OPBOO) Unit=0 > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: TDC0 Boot Block Datalen: 00000200 > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0000A0 00 20 01 06 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .. > ............. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0020 thru 002F same as above > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 0A 02 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0040 00 02 08 00 C6 15 00 60 05 00 C3 15 30 00 C2 15 > .......`....0... > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0050 03 00 53 10 D1 0B C2 0A FC 02 E6 17 04 00 DF 15 > ..S............. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0060 6A 00 04 00 C9 0B 4B 10 03 01 CB 1D C4 FF 96 25 > j.....K........% > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0070 9F 15 04 00 F7 15 08 00 C8 FF C4 15 00 02 37 10 > ..............7. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0080 BA FF E6 15 08 00 03 0A BF 0A A8 FF F7 09 E8 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0090 FF 0A A0 FF C3 15 04 04 FF 0B 96 FF F7 09 DC 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00A0 03 0A F7 09 EA 00 C3 00 C3 A5 10 00 04 03 CE 0A > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00B0 EA 02 D6 0B 58 01 D6 0B B7 0A 86 FF F7 25 28 00 > ....X........%(. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00C0 80 FF 06 02 C2 1D 74 FF C1 1D 64 FF 5F 00 26 02 > ......t...d._.&. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00D0 F7 09 96 00 02 0A C0 15 38 00 02 64 42 0B C1 8A > ........8..dB... > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00E0 FC 02 88 10 F7 09 82 00 C0 15 38 00 03 14 F7 09 > ..........8..... > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00F0 8A 00 C1 8A FB 80 F7 09 92 00 C3 A5 01 00 12 02 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0100 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 C1 45 00 FF 81 0C F7 09 7C 00 > .......E......|. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0110 D4 10 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F9 02 F7 09 6E 00 C2 20 > ...`B.......n.. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0120 EA 03 22 01 C3 A5 02 00 1E 02 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 > .."............. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0130 C1 45 00 FF 81 8C F7 09 52 00 C3 A5 40 00 13 02 > .E......R... at ... > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0140 C3 0B 11 81 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F7 09 3E 00 C2 60 > .....`B.....>..` > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0150 42 0B C1 8A FA 02 C3 0B 06 81 F7 09 2E 00 C2 20 > B.............. > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0160 03 02 77 00 52 FF 00 00 00 00 C1 9D CB FE C1 45 > ..w.R..........E > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0170 00 FF 81 0C 81 0A 87 00 CF 09 CF 09 CF 09 FF 90 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0180 B4 FE C3 00 FF 8B AC FE FD 80 87 00 03 0A CF 09 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0190 FF 8B 9C FE FD 80 C5 1F 98 FE E5 81 43 D1 C3 00 > ............C... > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01A0 87 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 > ................ > DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01C0 thru 01FF same as above > DBG(930597)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) > DBG(930597)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 > DBG(930599)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) > ... > DBG(930763)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 > DBG(930765)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) > DBG(930765)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0DAT=0x00 > <-----------------------DATA=00 > DBG(930767)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) > ... > DBG(930943)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 > DBG(930945)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) > DBG(930945)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0 DAT=0x20 > <-----------------------DATA=20 > DBG(930947)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) > DBG(930947)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 > DBG(930949)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) > ... > > > > On 3/12/2016 9:47 PM, Don North wrote: >> I've been doing some testing on the (new) SIMH TU58 device, and am finding >> that reading the boot block does not work. >> >> I have TU58 bootable images, and when I try and boot from them in SIMH they >> halt/crash. >> >> I adapted my PDP-11 M(312 TU58 boot code to a loadable SIMH image, and found >> that it appears that the TU58 boot command in SIMH (which should read block >> zero of the selected unit into memory locations 0-777(8)) is skipping over >> the first byte in the boot block (the 240(8) byte that is part of the NOP in >> the first word of every DEC bootstrap). >> >> If I dump the first section of the bootable .dsk image I see: >> >> local[505] od -b -N512 -v tu58.dsk >> 0000000 240 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> 0000020 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> 0000040 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> 0000060 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 >> 0000100 000 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 >> 0000120 003 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 >> >> but when I give the 'boot' opcode to the emulated TU58 in SIMH it returns: >> >> +0000: 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> +0020: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> +0040: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> +0060: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 000 >> +0100: 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 003 >> +0120: 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 152 >> >> By inspection the bytes are the same, just shifted down one location from >> where they should be, and the 240(8) byte in location zero is missing. >> >> So this is why 'boot tdc0' fails in the current SIMH on github. >> >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: b304d7f4 >> Disabling XQ >> TDC: buffering file in memory >> Debug output to "tdc.log" >> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta >> Simulator Framework Capabilities: >> 32b data >> 32b addresses >> Ethernet Packet transports:PCAP:NAT:UDP >> Idle/Throttling support is available >> Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) support >> Asynchronous I/O support >> FrontPanel API Version 2 >> Host Platform: >> Compiler: GCC 5.3.0 >> Simulator Compiled: Mar 12 2016 at 16:36:37 >> Memory Access: Little Endian >> Memory Pointer Size: 32 bits >> Large File (>2GB) support >> SDL Video support: No Video Support >> RegEx support for EXPECT commands >> OS clock resolution: 1ms >> Time taken by msleep(1): 1ms >> OS: CYGWIN_NT-6.1-WOW lenovoS30w7 2.4.1(0.293/5/3) 2016-01-24 >> 11:24 i686 Cygwin >> git commit id: b304d7f4 >> PDP-11 simulator configuration >> >> >> >> On 3/12/2016 3:58 PM, Don North wrote: >>> Whoops slight correction .. . the TU58 protocol supports a 16b block number, >>> so it is 65536 blocks of 512B, or 32MB maximum. >>> >>> On 3/12/2016 3:55 PM, Don North wrote: >>>> Well looks like I have been living in the past ... >>>> >>>> I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) >>>> and have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it >>>> appears has supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at >>>> least by comment dates). >>>> >>>> I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one >>>> should expect. >>>> >>>> However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the >>>> virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to >>>> work as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a >>>> TU58 and then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 >>>> protocol supports up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it seems >>>> that the SIMH TU58 only supports a physical TU58 tape image of 256KB. I'll >>>> have to do some more experiments and read some code to see what is going on. >>>> >>>> If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the >>>> utility of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an >>>> (up to) 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. >>>> Limiting simh to only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical >>>> limitation of TU58 cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of the >>>> TU58 serial line protocol. >>>> >>>> Don >>>> >>>> On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >>>>> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the >>>>> beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by >>>>> SIMH without the below error. >>>>> >>>>> I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I >>>>> get home tonight: >>>>> >>>>> DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. >>>>> >>>>> The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). >>>>> >>>>> Rich >>>>> >>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>> >>>>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>>>> >>>>>>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>>>>>> Altho the required serial interface >>>>>>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>>>>>> serial interface has never been emulated. >>>>>> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >>>>>> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >>>>>> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >>>>>> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >>>>>> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >>>>>> >>>>>> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >>>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>>> TDC: creating new file >>>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>>> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >>>>>> sim> b rq0 >>>>>> >>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>> >>>>>> .init dd0: >>>>>> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >>>>>> >>>>>> .copy dd.sys dd0: >>>>>> Files copied: >>>>>> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >>>>>> **** Copying some files ***** >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>>> Files copied: >>>>>> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >>>>>> >>>>>> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>>> .boot dd0: >>>>>> >>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>> >>>>>> .dir >>>>>> >>>>>> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >>>>>> 316 Free blocks >>>>>> >>>>>> .boot du0: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >>>>>> sim> exit >>>>>> Goodbye >>>>>> TDC: writing buffer to file >>>>>> >>>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>>> sim> b tdc0 >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >>>>>> sim> >>>>>> >>>>>> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >>>>>> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >>>>>> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >>>>>> >>>>>> E11>assign tt1: dda: >>>>>> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >>>>>> E11>b tt1: >>>>>> >>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>> >>>>>> .dir >>>>>> >>>>>> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >>>>>> 346 Free blocks >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >>>>>> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >>>>>> real hardware. >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >>>>>> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >>>>>> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >>>>>> enabled. >>>>>> >>>>>> /Mattis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Don >>>>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > > From north at alum.mit.edu Sun Mar 13 01:23:44 2016 From: north at alum.mit.edu (Don North) Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 23:23:44 -0800 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E51365.4040902@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> <56E51365.4040902@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56E51580.9040908@alum.mit.edu> Ok, filed as: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/285 On 3/12/2016 11:14 PM, Don North wrote: > Fixed! > > sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp > sim> set tdc enable > sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk > sim> b tdc0 > > BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR > > XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 > REVISION: F0 > BOOTED FROM DD0 > 124KW OF MEMORY > UNIBUS SYSTEM > > RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 > TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > In file pdp11_td.c, comment out/delete line 1023 (red) "ctlr->rx_buf = > ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++]; /* get first byte */" > > This would seem to be priming the read routine, but in fact it is discarding > the first byte of the block zero bootstrap. > > Don > > > case TD_OPBOO: > if (ctlr->ibptr < 2) { /* whole packet read? */ > ctlr->ilen = 2; > ctlr->o_state = TD_GETDATA; /* get rest of packet */ > return; > } > else { > int8 *fbuf; > int i; > > sim_debug (TDDEB_TRC, ctlr->dptr, "td_process_packet(OPBOO) > Unit=%d\n", ctlr->ibuf[4]); > ctlr->unitno = ctlr->ibuf[1]; > fbuf = ctlr->uptr[ctlr->unitno].filebuf; > ctlr->block = 0; > ctlr->txsize = 0; > ctlr->p_state = TD_READ2; > ctlr->offset = 0; > ctlr->obptr = 0; > > for (i=0; i < TD_NUMBY; i++) > ctlr->obuf[i] = fbuf[i]; > ctlr->olen = TD_NUMBY; > // ctlr->rx_buf = ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++]; /* get first byte */ > sim_data_trace(ctlr->dptr, &ctlr->uptr[ctlr->unitno], ctlr->obuf, > "Boot Block Data", ctlr->olen, "", TDDEB_DAT); > sim_activate (ctlr->uptr+ctlr->unitno, td_ctime);/* sched command */ > } > break; > > case TD_OPCNT: > break; > > > > > > > > On 3/12/2016 10:19 PM, Don North wrote: >> So I turned on full debug on the TDC device and I see the boot block is >> being read correctly (bytes A0,00,20,01,...) but in the register reads >> following that transfer the boot block to the PDP11 the first byte (A0) >> is never seen, only bytes 00,20,01,... >> >> So it appears to be a real bug in the TU58 SIMH implementation. >> >> I'd cross post this info to the SIMH mailing list, but for some reason I >> am unable to send to that mailing list, all my email gets rejected. >> >> Don >> >> DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: td_wr_o_buf() o_state=GETDATA, ibptr=1, ilen=2 >> DBG(930594)> TDC OWR: TX_BUF: DAT=0x0 >> DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet() Opcode=OPBOO(8) >> DBG(930594)> TDC TRC: td_process_packet(OPBOO) Unit=0 >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: TDC0 Boot Block Datalen: 00000200 >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0000A0 00 20 01 06 00 00 00 0A 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 .. >> ............. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0010 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0020 thru 002F same as above >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0030 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 02 0A 02 00 00 00 00 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0040 00 02 08 00 C6 15 00 60 05 00 C3 15 30 00 C2 15 >> .......`....0... >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0050 03 00 53 10 D1 0B C2 0A FC 02 E6 17 04 00 DF 15 >> ..S............. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0060 6A 00 04 00 C9 0B 4B 10 03 01 CB 1D C4 FF 96 25 >> j.....K........% >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0070 9F 15 04 00 F7 15 08 00 C8 FF C4 15 00 02 37 10 >> ..............7. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0080 BA FF E6 15 08 00 03 0A BF 0A A8 FF F7 09 E8 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0090 FF 0A A0 FF C3 15 04 04 FF 0B 96 FF F7 09 DC 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00A0 03 0A F7 09 EA 00 C3 00 C3 A5 10 00 04 03 CE 0A >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00B0 EA 02 D6 0B 58 01 D6 0B B7 0A 86 FF F7 25 28 00 >> ....X........%(. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00C0 80 FF 06 02 C2 1D 74 FF C1 1D 64 FF 5F 00 26 02 >> ......t...d._.&. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00D0 F7 09 96 00 02 0A C0 15 38 00 02 64 42 0B C1 8A >> ........8..dB... >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00E0 FC 02 88 10 F7 09 82 00 C0 15 38 00 03 14 F7 09 >> ..........8..... >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 00F0 8A 00 C1 8A FB 80 F7 09 92 00 C3 A5 01 00 12 02 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0100 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 C1 45 00 FF 81 0C F7 09 7C 00 >> .......E......|. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0110 D4 10 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F9 02 F7 09 6E 00 C2 20 >> ...`B.......n.. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0120 EA 03 22 01 C3 A5 02 00 1E 02 C2 10 C3 00 C1 90 >> .."............. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0130 C1 45 00 FF 81 8C F7 09 52 00 C3 A5 40 00 13 02 >> .E......R... at ... >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0140 C3 0B 11 81 C2 60 42 0B C1 8A F7 09 3E 00 C2 60 >> .....`B.....>..` >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0150 42 0B C1 8A FA 02 C3 0B 06 81 F7 09 2E 00 C2 20 >> B.............. >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0160 03 02 77 00 52 FF 00 00 00 00 C1 9D CB FE C1 45 >> ..w.R..........E >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0170 00 FF 81 0C 81 0A 87 00 CF 09 CF 09 CF 09 FF 90 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0180 B4 FE C3 00 FF 8B AC FE FD 80 87 00 03 0A CF 09 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 0190 FF 8B 9C FE FD 80 C5 1F 98 FE E5 81 43 D1 C3 00 >> ............C... >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01A0 87 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01B0 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 00 >> ................ >> DBG(930594)> TDC DAT: 01C0 thru 01FF same as above >> DBG(930597)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) >> DBG(930597)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 >> DBG(930599)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) >> ... >> DBG(930763)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 >> DBG(930765)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) >> DBG(930765)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0DAT=0x00 >> <-----------------------DATA=00 >> DBG(930767)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) >> ... >> DBG(930943)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE1 IE0 >> DBG(930945)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776502(RX_BUF), access=0-Read) >> DBG(930945)> TDC IRD: RX_BUF: ERR0 OVR0 RBRK0 DAT=0x20 >> <-----------------------DATA=20 >> DBG(930947)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) >> DBG(930947)> TDC IRD: RX_CSR: DONE0 IE0 >> DBG(930949)> TDC RRD: td_rd(PA=17776500(RX_CSR), access=0-Read) >> ... >> >> >> >> On 3/12/2016 9:47 PM, Don North wrote: >>> I've been doing some testing on the (new) SIMH TU58 device, and am finding >>> that reading the boot block does not work. >>> >>> I have TU58 bootable images, and when I try and boot from them in SIMH they >>> halt/crash. >>> >>> I adapted my PDP-11 M(312 TU58 boot code to a loadable SIMH image, and found >>> that it appears that the TU58 boot command in SIMH (which should read block >>> zero of the selected unit into memory locations 0-777(8)) is skipping over >>> the first byte in the boot block (the 240(8) byte that is part of the NOP in >>> the first word of every DEC bootstrap). >>> >>> If I dump the first section of the bootable .dsk image I see: >>> >>> local[505] od -b -N512 -v tu58.dsk >>> 0000000 240 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> 0000020 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> 0000040 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> 0000060 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 >>> 0000100 000 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 >>> 0000120 003 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 >>> >>> but when I give the 'boot' opcode to the emulated TU58 in SIMH it returns: >>> >>> +0000: 000 040 001 006 000 000 000 012 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> +0020: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> +0040: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> +0060: 000 000 000 000 000 000 000 002 012 002 000 000 000 000 000 000 >>> +0100: 002 010 000 306 025 000 140 005 000 303 025 060 000 302 025 003 >>> +0120: 000 123 020 321 013 302 012 374 002 346 027 004 000 337 025 152 >>> >>> By inspection the bytes are the same, just shifted down one location from >>> where they should be, and the 240(8) byte in location zero is missing. >>> >>> So this is why 'boot tdc0' fails in the current SIMH on github. >>> >>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: b304d7f4 >>> Disabling XQ >>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>> Debug output to "tdc.log" >>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta >>> Simulator Framework Capabilities: >>> 32b data >>> 32b addresses >>> Ethernet Packet transports:PCAP:NAT:UDP >>> Idle/Throttling support is available >>> Virtual Hard Disk (VHD) support >>> Asynchronous I/O support >>> FrontPanel API Version 2 >>> Host Platform: >>> Compiler: GCC 5.3.0 >>> Simulator Compiled: Mar 12 2016 at 16:36:37 >>> Memory Access: Little Endian >>> Memory Pointer Size: 32 bits >>> Large File (>2GB) support >>> SDL Video support: No Video Support >>> RegEx support for EXPECT commands >>> OS clock resolution: 1ms >>> Time taken by msleep(1): 1ms >>> OS: CYGWIN_NT-6.1-WOW lenovoS30w7 2.4.1(0.293/5/3) >>> 2016-01-24 11:24 i686 Cygwin >>> git commit id: b304d7f4 >>> PDP-11 simulator configuration >>> >>> >>> >>> On 3/12/2016 3:58 PM, Don North wrote: >>>> Whoops slight correction .. . the TU58 protocol supports a 16b block >>>> number, so it is 65536 blocks of 512B, or 32MB maximum. >>>> >>>> On 3/12/2016 3:55 PM, Don North wrote: >>>>> Well looks like I have been living in the past ... >>>>> >>>>> I have been using v3.9 SIMH from the SIMH website (the 'legacy' version) >>>>> and have now gone an upgraded to the github v4.0 version. This one it >>>>> appears has supported the serial virtual TU58 device since mid 2015 (at >>>>> least by comment dates). >>>>> >>>>> I have tried it, and it successfully boots my XXDP TU58 images, as one >>>>> should expect. >>>>> >>>>> However, I tried mounting a larger than 256KB physical TU58 image on the >>>>> virtual TU58 (as one can do with a real TU58) but it does not appear to >>>>> work as I expect. I should be able to mount a 10MB RL02 XXDP image on a >>>>> TU58 and then do read-only accesses to the full image. The real TU58 >>>>> protocol supports up to 32MB devices (512 blocks of 512 bytes) but it >>>>> seems that the SIMH TU58 only supports a physical TU58 tape image of >>>>> 256KB. I'll have to do some more experiments and read some code to see >>>>> what is going on. >>>>> >>>>> If this restriction is in place it does rather significantly limit the >>>>> utility of the TU58 virtual serial device, in not allowing one to build an >>>>> (up to) 32MB disk image under SIMH, and then move it to a real TU58. >>>>> Limiting simh to only 256KB sized images is being true to the physical >>>>> limitation of TU58 cartridges, but not true to the actual capability of >>>>> the TU58 serial line protocol. >>>>> >>>>> Don >>>>> >>>>> On 3/11/2016 11:19 AM, Richard Cini wrote: >>>>>> I had a little time after lunch to try the below procedure and using the >>>>>> beta version of SIMH I am able to create a tape image that's bootable by >>>>>> SIMH without the below error. >>>>>> >>>>>> I copied the following to the image, which I will try with TU58em when I >>>>>> get home tonight: >>>>>> >>>>>> DD, TT, rt11sj, DU, SL, LD, pip, dir, swap, dup, and starts.com. >>>>>> >>>>>> The size of the image is 504 blocks (264 free). >>>>>> >>>>>> Rich >>>>>> >>>>>> Sent from my iPhone >>>>>> >>>>>> On Mar 11, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>>> SIMH has never directly supported mounting/attaching virtual TU58 devices. >>>>>>>> Altho the required serial interface >>>>>>>> is emulated (ie, a plain DL11 at 776500/300) the TU58 drive behind the >>>>>>>> serial interface has never been emulated. >>>>>>> I just tested the latest SimH from github and it is indeed possible to >>>>>>> enable tdc and attach an image file to the tdc0 device. I then booted into >>>>>>> RT11 from a DU-device and did INIT DD0: no problem. >>>>>>> Then I made a bootable DD image. I did even do a BOOT DD0: which gave me a >>>>>>> RT11-prompt. But booting from SimH failed on me. I am not sure why. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> MattisMacBook:BIN mattis$ ./pdp11 >>>>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>>>> TDC: creating new file >>>>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>>>> sim> attach rq0 rt11v53-games.dsk >>>>>>> sim> b rq0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .init dd0: >>>>>>> DD0:/Initialize; Are you sure? Y >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .copy dd.sys dd0: >>>>>>> Files copied: >>>>>>> DK:DD.SYS to DD0:DD.SYS >>>>>>> **** Copying some files ***** >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .copy rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>>>> Files copied: >>>>>>> DK:RT11SJ.SYS to DD0:RT11SJ.SYS >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .copy/boot rt11sj.sys dd0: >>>>>>> .boot dd0: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .dir >>>>>>> >>>>>>> DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 DUP .SAV 47P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> DU .SYS 8P 20-Dec-85 RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> 8 Files, 188 Blocks >>>>>>> 316 Free blocks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .boot du0: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Simulation stopped, PC: 146414 (BCC 146446) >>>>>>> sim> exit >>>>>>> Goodbye >>>>>>> TDC: writing buffer to file >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PDP-11 simulator V4.0-0 Beta git commit id: 1b6f28a7 >>>>>>> sim> set tdc enable >>>>>>> sim> attach tdc0 rt11-dd.dsk >>>>>>> TDC: buffering file in memory >>>>>>> sim> b tdc0 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Trap stack push abort, PC: 000000 (WAIT) >>>>>>> sim> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I have no idea why SimH is not able to boot from the simulated DD0: device. >>>>>>> The steps to make a bootable dd0: was exactly the same steps as to make a >>>>>>> bootable RK0: which works just fine. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Ersatz-11 on the other hand works fine with the same image: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> E11>assign tt1: dda: >>>>>>> E11>mount dda0: rt11v53_dd.dsk >>>>>>> E11>b tt1: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> RT-11SJ V05.03 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> .dir >>>>>>> >>>>>>> TT .SYS 2P 20-Dec-85 DD .SYS 5P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> RT11SJ.SYS 79P 20-Dec-85 SWAP .SYS 27P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> STARTS.COM 1P 20-Dec-85 DIR .SAV 19P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> RESORC.SAV 25P 20-Dec-85 >>>>>>> 7 Files, 158 Blocks >>>>>>> 346 Free blocks >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> This is the image that boots in Ersatz-11 but not in SimH: >>>>>>> https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/rt11v53_dd.dsk.gz >>>>>>> Since it boots on Ersatz-11 when set to 11/03 CPU it should work on the >>>>>>> real hardware. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> BTW. It not so that the LTC interrupt is enabled in your system? I have had >>>>>>> problem with that one. In certain cases it need to be disabled. If I >>>>>>> remember correctly I had problems booting RT11 from MSCP devices with LTC >>>>>>> enabled. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> /Mattis >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Don >>>>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >> >> > From pchatt30 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 03:19:37 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Chatt) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 08:19:37 +0000 Subject: Apple Disk II Message-ID: Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and controller card in the uk? The shipping costs from the US are a too much. Thanks From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 04:25:03 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 04:25:03 -0500 Subject: Apple Disk II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hey Peter, Out of curiosity, How much is it coming from the US to your location? Thanks, James On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Peter Chatt wrote: > Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and > controller card in the uk? The shipping costs from the US are a too much. > > Thanks From pchatt30 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 04:41:19 2016 From: pchatt30 at gmail.com (Peter Chatt) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:41:19 +0000 Subject: Apple Disk II In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: ?25 to ?35, which is pretty much the same as the sale price. > On 13 Mar 2016, at 09:25, James Vess wrote: > > Hey Peter, > > Out of curiosity, How much is it coming from the US to your location? > > Thanks, > James > >> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:19 AM, Peter Chatt wrote: >> >> Hi, Dose anybody have a reasonably priced Apple Disk II drive and >> controller card in the uk? The shipping costs from the US are a too much. >> >> Thanks From mattislind at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 06:11:28 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 12:11:28 +0100 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E51580.9040908@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> <56E51365.4040902@alum.mit.edu> <56E51580.9040908@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-03-13 8:23 GMT+01:00 Don North : > Ok, filed as: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/285 > > > On 3/12/2016 11:14 PM, Don North wrote: > >> Fixed! >> >> sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk >> sim> b tdc0 >> >> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR >> >> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 >> REVISION: F0 >> BOOTED FROM DD0 >> 124KW OF MEMORY >> UNIBUS SYSTEM >> >> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 >> TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! > > Well done! Thanks. Myself I never got further than finding that the boot block read in was not the same as the one on tape. But now it looks obvious it was just shifted one byte. /Mattis > > > From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Mar 13 08:44:06 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:44:06 -0400 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E51580.9040908@alum.mit.edu> References: <2hgupanyprasjqg2lswuasv9.1457649590471@email.android.com> <21E23333-E9D2-464C-A0E5-5A64B1B611A0@verizon.net> <56E224B1.6090703@alum.mit.edu> <2713A448-A476-4828-878F-5ABB138C60ED@comcast.net> <38929D1E-8ABA-4306-BEB3-11907018570A@verizon.net> <56E2355B.4050603@cimmeri.com> <56E2450D.7010808@alum.mit.edu> <189C76E0-CE14-4592-840F-57702E0A39F6@verizon.net> <56E4AC5A.9050003@alum.mit.edu> <56E4AD0E.1000805@alum.mit.edu> <56E4FED8.8030703@alum.mit.edu> <56E5066E.4090903@alum.mit.edu> <56E51365.4040902@alum.mit.edu> <56E51580.9040908@alum.mit.edu> Message-ID: <1751BFB2-468E-49A6-9514-AC13A08FF426@verizon.net> That's an awesome find Don, thanks! Rich Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 13, 2016, at 3:23 AM, Don North wrote: > > Ok, filed as: https://github.com/simh/simh/issues/285 > >> On 3/12/2016 11:14 PM, Don North wrote: >> Fixed! >> >> sim> set cpu 11/34 256K fpp >> sim> set tdc enable >> sim> attach tdc0 tu58.dsk >> sim> b tdc0 >> >> BOOTING UP XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR >> >> XXDP-XM EXTENDED MONITOR - XXDP V2.5 >> REVISION: F0 >> BOOTED FROM DD0 >> 124KW OF MEMORY >> UNIBUS SYSTEM >> >> RESTART ADDRESS: 152000 >> TYPE "H" FOR HELP ! >> >> In file pdp11_td.c, comment out/delete line 1023 (red) "ctlr->rx_buf = ctlr->obuf[ctlr->obptr++]; /* get first byte */" >> >> This would seem to be priming the read routine, but in fact it is discarding the first byte of the block zero bootstrap. >> >> Don >> >> >> case TD_OPBOO: >> if (ctlr->ibptr < 2) { /* whole packet read? */ >> ctlr->ilen = 2; >> ctlr->o_state = TD_GETDATA; /* get rest of packet */ >> return; >> } >> else { >> int8 *fbuf; >> int i; >> From geneb at deltasoft.com Sun Mar 13 10:27:07 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 08:27:07 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: <56E4455A.1010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, James Vess wrote: > I honestly am a bit surprised, as other dealings I've had with groups that > focus on technology typically are not as welcoming or responsive. > You caught us on a good day. I'm sure you'll get yelled at next week. Welcome to the zoo. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From echristopherson at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 10:52:42 2016 From: echristopherson at gmail.com (Eric Christopherson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 10:52:42 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: On Mar 12, 2016 10:25 PM, "James Vess" wrote: > > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the > systems listed? > > I would need to see enough interest to go do it though, as even though I'd > love to get these and just play with them, but I wouldn't be able to keep > them. > > I can't let myself go nuts collecting as I'm living the apartment life and > I don't want to "have to sell" things when I don't want to due to space > constraints or moving. > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > > > > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine > > > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html > > > > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next > > systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for $600 to > > make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of seems > > self defeating. > > > > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a > > look..... > > > > -Ali > > > > I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just FWIW. From jwest at classiccmp.org Sun Mar 13 11:04:36 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:04:36 -0500 Subject: Introduction and Alpha Micro AM-1200 query In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001901d17d42$0a61a520$1f24ef60$@classiccmp.org> Ross; Welcome aboard, glad to have you here. Additional datapoints for you - In a previous life I owned a Pick-based consulting firm. Our focus was on our in-house written software packages but we always sold pick-based hardware as well. Over many years of operation as the personal relationships and technologies changed we would have some "preferred platform" but generally maintained dealership status for the others. Long story short, we sold a lot of pick or MV based systems and alpha micro was one of them for a good while. What I recall during the days of being an alpha micro dealer was that the AM machines of the day could be ordered as Pick machines or AMOS machines. I believe that the system itself was identical, but each OS wanted certain options/configurations. As one example, I think pick got a certain make/model of multiport board whereas amos got a different one (or maybe the same one but just jumpered as AMOS would expect it). I do not know if the am-1200 you mention was during this time period. I do remember the machines we got were beige, desktop formfactor, and roughly the size of a typical PC of the time. Best, J From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:28:10 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 12:28:10 -0500 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? Message-ID: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> Does anyone recall an Olivetti ST506-interface drive with a colossal 3MB capacity? Apparently a full-height 5.25" unit with 4 heads and two platters. I'm just curious; I always thought that capacities either equaled or surpassed the 5MB of Seagate's ST506 after they introduced it, so I was a bit surprised to hear of a drive with < 5MB. For context, Acorn apparently used them during development of their external Winchester units for BBC micros (Acorn SASI board, Adaptec SASI-ST506 bridge, ST506 drive). Production units that I'm aware of had either a 10MB or 30MB drive fitted (BASF typically, I think). We're talking 1983, or maybe late '82, so considerably after the introduction of the original Seagate drive. The only Olivetti drives I'm finding mention of are a 10MB single-platter drive and a 20MB dual-platter drive. Acorn had close ties with Olivetti, of course, so I did wonder if Acorn acquired some pre-production drives - but it seems like a bit of a leap to go from a 3MB dual-platter prototype to a 20MB one. cheers Jules From rich.cini at verizon.net Sun Mar 13 13:11:12 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:11:12 -0400 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> Message-ID: <784C078F-BE97-40F8-90A5-1720EE20A97A@verizon.net> All ? To close this out, I want to report that with Malcolm?s and Mattis? help, I was able to get RT-11 v4 and v5.03 running on the H-11 using the TU58 emulator. Avoiding the gory details, the upshot is that there was a bus interrupt issue relating to how the cards were installed ? I had the slot numbering wrong so there was a gap between two cards. RT-11 started booting and then barfed during the boot. Once I moved the second SLU to the right position, RT-11 booted properly. So, now I have both RT-11 v4 and v5 running on the H-11. Hooray! Thanks to all who helped push me along on this. I did create a separate Heath page on my Web site for it. Rich -- Rich Cini http://www.classiccmp.org/cini http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 On 3/11/16, 9:21 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Jerome H. Fine" wrote: > >On Thursday, February 10th, 2016 at 12:51:30 - 0500, Richard Cini wrote: > >>Is there a listing somewhere of what versions of RT-11 work with which CPUs? The Heath H11 uses the LSI-11 which I think is an 11/03 equivalent. Is there a specific version (or maximum version) designed for this CPU? >> >>I tried v4 using a method I found on-line (modifying with SIMH to make it bootable as a TU58 image rather than an RK) but it doesn't work so I wanted to first eliminate the system version as the potential problem. >> >Sorry for the delay in my answer. I was out of town for the last >36 hours, so I just noticed this thread. > >For maximum flexibility, I would suggest V05.03 of RT-11. It is >just about the most widely available and has the benefit of probably >being completely legal to use on a non-commercial basis with SimH. > >V04.00 of RT-11 will probably run equally well, but obviously >without some of the many additional features found in V05.03 >of RT-11. In addition, you might want to check even later >versions of RT-11, all of which still run on a PDP-11/03 CPU. > >Under V05.03 of RT-11, you can use either distributed >Unmapped Monitor, RT11SJ or RT11FB. The size will be >larger than from V04.00 of RT-11, but I suggest that the >additional features are more than worth while. Since you >have all 32 KW or memory or 64 KB, you will not have >any problem booting RT-11. > >If you have any specific questions using Ersatz-11 with >a PDP-11/03, just ask. That will make sure that the >configuration and the boot device is set up correctly. > >Just for practice, you might try using Ersatz-11 with V05.03 >of RT-11 with SET CPU 03. You will find that Ersatz-11 >is trivial to use and that it supports emulation of all types of >disk drives including TU-58, RK05, RL02 and SCSI, named, >respectively, DD:, RK:, DL: and DU:, the same as DEC names >them. Be warned that after you practice with Ersatz-11, you >may find that an LSI-11, also called a PDP-11/03, is a bit >slower than running with Ersatz-11, even on a 486. My >experience with just a 750 MHz Pentium III is that RT-11 >runs about 15 times as fast as a PDP-11/93. On a current >I7 from Intel, I expect speeds more than 100 times as fast >as a PDP-11/93. > >If you provide some of the information requested below, a >version of RT-11 might be suggested which is a better fit. >Otherwise, my assumption at present is that you want to >use RT-11 since it is the only reasonable choice out of >RT-11, RSX-11 and RSTS/E, although I am reasonably >sure that RSTS/E can't run on a PDP-11/03. Further, you >want to run RT-11 to be able to show that you can run >RT-11 on the PDP-11/03 hardware that you have. That >is quite different from the original reason a PDP-11/03 >system was purchased, namely to run specific application >programs which were able to run under RT-11. If I >am incorrect, please let me know and advise otherwise. > >It does sound like you have the Heath Kit version of the hardware. >If so, then you probably don't have a hard disk drive. A complete >list of the actual hardware will be helpful. In addition, even more >important from my point of view is why you want to use the hardware >that you have to run RT-11 (most likely because it will not run anything >else very easily) and then which specific application programs will be >run after you are successful in getting RT-11 to run. Just as important >is how you will interface with the PDP-11/03 and move the results >from the PDP-11/03 to either printed output or a system that can >share the results via the internet. > >Jerome Fine From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 13 13:15:41 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:15:41 -0700 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> On 03/13/2016 10:28 AM, Jules Richardson wrote: > > Does anyone recall an Olivetti ST506-interface drive with a colossal > 3MB capacity? Apparently a full-height 5.25" unit with 4 heads and > two platters. > > I'm just curious; I always thought that capacities either equaled or > surpassed the 5MB of Seagate's ST506 after they introduced it, so I > was a bit surprised to hear of a drive with < 5MB. Hard drives smaller than 5MB were not unusual. For example, the Rodime RO-101 was only 3MB. My list shows Olivetti-branded drives starting at 10MB forever. So probably someone else's drive. --Chuck From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Mar 13 14:21:34 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 19:21:34 +0000 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <784C078F-BE97-40F8-90A5-1720EE20A97A@verizon.net> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> <784C078F-BE97-40F8-90A5-1720EE20A97A@verizon.net> Message-ID: <56E5BDBE.9000702@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/03/2016 18:11, Richard Cini wrote: > To close this out, I want to report that with Malcolm?s and Mattis? > help, I was able to get RT-11 v4 and v5.03 running on the H-11 using > the TU58 emulator. > Thanks to all who helped push me along on this. I did create a > separate Heath page on my Web site for it. Excellent news! Well done :-) -- Pete Pete Turnbull From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 14:38:25 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 14:38:25 -0500 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> On 03/13/2016 01:15 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > Hard drives smaller than 5MB were not unusual. For example, the Rodime > RO-101 was only 3MB. Interesting... I've had 'real' ST506's before, but I don't think I've ever seen or heard of anything less than that (in a 5.25" f/f) > My list shows Olivetti-branded drives starting at 10MB forever. So > probably someone else's drive. Right, they did a 10MB and 20MB, but I've not heard of anything else... These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big jump - but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that had three surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one surface would be 5MB, and going from 3MB per surface in a pre-production drive to 5MB in the end product wouldn't be such of a leap. J. From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 13 15:12:08 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 13:12:08 -0700 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E5C998.7040207@sydex.com> On 03/13/2016 12:38 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn > employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big > jump - but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that > had three surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one > surface would be 5MB, and going from 3MB per surface in a > pre-production drive to 5MB in Do you have a part number for the Olivetti drive? I think that taking a 10MB drive and downgrading it to a 3MB one wouldn't be a paying venture. --Chuck From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 10:00:40 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 11:00:40 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries Message-ID: We started working on the RK05 drive that is part of the PDP-12 at the RICM. The drve is very clean and in good condition. It will need new seals between the blower and the card cage, and between the plenum and the disk pack. I think that 1/2" and 1/4" weatherstrip from Home Depot will work fine. The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use the same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack. Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05? -- Michael Thompson From rickb at bensene.com Sun Mar 13 10:41:35 2016 From: rickb at bensene.com (Rick Bensene) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 08:41:35 -0700 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries References: Message-ID: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> Michael Thompson wrote: > > The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like > standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use the > same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack. > > Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05? > I've used those 4.8V rechargeable battery packs for cordless phones as the emergency retract batteries in a few RK05 drives, and they seem to work just fine. Just make sure you get a NiCd pack rather than NiMH as there are charging differences and I'm not sure if NiMH batteries would be happy in the charging circuit of an RK05 (but, who knows, they may work, I just haven't tried it). -Rick The Old Calculator Museum http://oldcalculatormuseum.com From pete at petelancashire.com Sun Mar 13 11:33:59 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 09:33:59 -0700 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Were are you located. I may still have the VME boards from the 260 that where saved from a 260 that had been scrapped -pete On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:56 AM, James Vess wrote: > Howdy there folks, > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for > sale or possibly even loan? > > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just > looking to recoup lost time :) > > Thanks, > James > > From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:11:11 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 13:11:11 -0400 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: > > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:27:18 -0800 > From: Charles Anthony > Subject: Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this > message folks -smecc > > The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs > to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor). > > -- Charles > I believe that the IOMs are Input/Output *Multiplexers.* -- Michael Thompson From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 12:31:23 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 10:31:23 -0700 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 10:11 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Date: Sat, 12 Mar 2016 07:27:18 -0800 > > From: Charles Anthony > > Subject: Re: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this > > message folks -smecc > > > > The panels labeled IOM are Input Output Managers; they connected the SCUs > > to peripheral devices; also sometimes 'IOP' (Input Output Processor). > > > > -- Charles > > > > I believe that the IOMs are Input/Output *Multiplexers.* > > Yes; brain cramp. -- Charles From pete at dunnington.plus.com Sun Mar 13 14:20:29 2016 From: pete at dunnington.plus.com (Pete Turnbull) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 19:20:29 +0000 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E5BD7D.2010001@dunnington.plus.com> On 13/03/2016 15:00, Michael Thompson wrote: > The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like > standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use > the same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack. That's what I've always done. > Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05? Yes: check the polarity. On mine the red was -ve and the black was +ve. Connecting red to red and black to black caused the heads to meet my hand rather sharply (and I use that adjective advisedly) but fortunately the red sticky stuff was easy to clean off. -- Pete Pete Turnbull From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 13 14:58:05 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:58:05 -0400 Subject: Why the National Archives needs punch-card readers (Fwd by SMECC) Message-ID: <1a6a7.55b71b6f.4417204d@aol.com> Scruffy Millennials covet old record players because they dig the format; the National Archives and Records Administration keeps old file players around because legacy digital data demand them. "I am preserving every file format that has ever existed on the web, or that any of you have ever used in your work on a daily basis," said Leslie Johnston, NARA's director of digital preservation, who spoke at a March 10 FedScoop event. "In one transfer from one agency, we received not only their email, their Word documents, their PDFs, their PowerPoints -- we actually received the entire contents of their hard drives." http://bit.ly/1QVLam4 enjoy - Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 15:39:47 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 13:39:47 -0700 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. Message-ID: The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and pedantic processor test program. It is unhappy with our emulated floating point. This should be the floating point used by the GE 6xx series and the Honeywell DPS8 and 6000 series. There is one particular failure that I am driven to seeking help for. If the intricacies of mainframe floating point math h/w do not interest you, time to delete this message and move on. For add and subtract operations, the operand with the smaller has its mantissa shifted right and the exponent incremented adjusted until the exponents match. >From the DPS8M assembly language manual: "The mantissas are aligned by shifting the mantissa of the operand having the algebraically smaller exponent to the right the number of places equal to the absolute value of the difference in the two exponents. Bits shifted beyond the bit position equivalent to AQ71 are lost." Sadly, ISOLTS complains about our implementation. It does helpfully provide what it says are the correct answers. Examination of the answers reveals the it is not the case that the shifted bits are lost; the shift mantissas are rounded according to rules that I can't quite characterize. ISOLTS runs many operands through the UFA (Unnormalized Floating Add) instruction; the current state of my rounding algorithm passes the first 46 tests; fails on the 47th. Everytime I try a different approach, it fails on an earlier test. The best rule that I have is: if the shifted mantissa is all ones and at least one of the bits shifted out was a one, the set the mantissa to 0. Test #47 adds: 700000000000700000000000 E 31. to 202025452400000000000000 E 102. ISOLTS expects 202025452377 777777777777 E 102. and it gets: 202025452400000000000000 E 102. The emulator should not have rounded in this case; but I cannot figure out the rule. I've abstracted the instruction out of the emulator and embedded it in a standalone test harness that runs the 47 tests. https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/drop/Charles/ufa47.c Any insights, suggestions for algorithms, reading material would be greatly appreciated. -- Charles From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 16:34:43 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:34:43 -0500 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5C998.7040207@sydex.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> <56E5C998.7040207@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56E5DCF3.9030906@gmail.com> On 03/13/2016 03:12 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > On 03/13/2016 12:38 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> These 3MB ones were definitely Olivetti - this was from an ex-Acorn >> employee who worked on the drive project. 3MB to 20MB seems a big >> jump - but it makes me wonder if they were working with drives that >> had three surfaces masked out due to manufacturing defects; one >> surface would be 5MB, and going from 3MB per surface in a >> pre-production drive to 5MB in > > > Do you have a part number for the Olivetti drive? No, unfortunately not, and the official service manual only mentions 10MB and 30MB drives (neither of which were Olivetti parts). > I think that taking a > 10MB drive and downgrading it to a 3MB one wouldn't be a paying venture. AIUI, Olivetti only shipped these 3MB drives to Acorn while they were testing their Winchester unit - Acorn never used them elsewhere. I am curious if they ever saw production though. Assuming for the moment that there were completely disabled surfaces involved due to too many defects (i.e. that this was a 2-platter drive with only one or maybe two active surfaces and the rest mapped out by the drive firmware), do you know how common a practice that was in the early days of ST506/412-type drives? I've heard various stories of it happening much later with more modern IDE drives in the multi-GB range (e.g. a 20GB drive might be a 40GB single-platter drive with one surface that had completely failed QC), but I don't know if it was ever done in the ST506/412 era. Jules From ben at bensinclair.com Sun Mar 13 16:50:24 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:50:24 -0500 Subject: PDP-11/23 Troubles Again Message-ID: In the previous episode, I was trying to get my M8013 and M8014 RL02 controller pair to pass the diskless controller test, and discovered it had some sort of stuck bit. Repairing that seemed a little out of my scope, so I recently found an M8061, and I tried to give it another go today. However, my system has decided to be flakey again after not running for a couple months. I removed the '13 and '14 and started up the memory and CPU diagnostics just to make sure I was in a good starting position. The memory passes just fine, but the JKDBD0 test no longer starts, and turns off the run light. Previously that was because of bad memory, (and it doesn't run at all with too little memory), but using two tested good M8044's got everything working. I reseated everything, and am running with the M8186, two M8044s, M8043, and the M8012, which was my previous good configuration. The power test points on the M8012 are good. I only have two (good, at least before) M8044s for memory, so I don't have anything handy to swap in. I think this particular machine just hates me, but assuming it doesn't, does anyone have other suggestions? Thanks! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:02:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:02:35 -0600 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5DCF3.9030906@gmail.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> <56E5C998.7040207@sydex.com> <56E5DCF3.9030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:34 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Assuming for the moment that there were completely disabled surfaces > involved due to too many defects (i.e. that this was a 2-platter drive with > only one or maybe two active surfaces and the rest mapped out by the drive > firmware), do you know how common a practice that was in the early days of > ST506/412-type drives? > > I've heard various stories of it happening much later with more modern IDE > drives in the multi-GB range (e.g. a 20GB drive might be a 40GB > single-platter drive with one surface that had completely failed QC), but I > don't know if it was ever done in the ST506/412 era. Often when components and assemblies are sold in a down-spec configuration, it isn't because anything failed test, but rather because they didn't take the time to do the testing on that portion. Testing a product is a significant part of the manufacturing cost, so there's actually significant cost savings associated with only testing a portion. This is often the case with memory chips and multicore processor chips; I don't know that it was done with hard drives, but manufacturing test time for hard drives was definitely expensive. On the other hand, I'm told that in mass production it is extremely uncommon for a side of a disk platter to have more than the allowable number of defects, so it seems more likely that a downspec hard drive would simply have fewer platters (and heads, etc.) installed, rather than having some disabled for excessive defects, or some untested. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 17:13:27 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:13:27 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> Message-ID: Is that "3MB" FORMATTED, or UNFORMATTED capacity? "10MB" (ST412) was 12MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 4 heads. "5MB" (ST406) was 6MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 2 heads. or was it (St506?) 153 cylinders with 4 heads? In any case, using half as many heads/surfaces would create an "ST503" drive. about 2.5M formatted capacity. From ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk Sun Mar 13 17:16:00 2016 From: ljw-cctech at ljw.me.uk (Lawrence Wilkinson) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 23:16:00 +0100 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E5E6A0.50703@ljw.me.uk> I haven't gone through your code in great detail. In particular I'm not sure what your rounding algorithm is (towards zero, round to nearest, etc.) I don't see what you're using the guard bit for, I would expect it to be appended to the mantissa prior to addition and rounding. Whether that's significant would depend on how you expect the rounding to work. Two suggestions (which you may well have tried): 1. Try an extra guard bit. 2. Convert to sign+magnitude so you don't have to worry about negative mantissas (i.e. negate a negative mantissa before shifting and back again after alignment). Lawrence On 13/03/16 21:39, Charles Anthony wrote: > The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and > pedantic processor test program. > > It is unhappy with our emulated floating point. > > This should be the floating point used by the GE 6xx series and the > Honeywell DPS8 and 6000 series. > > There is one particular failure that I am driven to seeking help for. > > If the intricacies of mainframe floating point math h/w do not interest > you, time to delete this message and move on. > > For add and subtract operations, the operand with the smaller has its > mantissa shifted right and the exponent incremented adjusted until the > exponents match. > > >From the DPS8M assembly language manual: > > "The mantissas are aligned by shifting the mantissa of the operand > having the algebraically smaller exponent to the right the number of > places equal to the absolute value of the difference in the two > exponents. Bits shifted beyond the bit position equivalent to AQ71 are > lost." > > Sadly, ISOLTS complains about our implementation. It does helpfully provide > what it says are the correct answers. Examination of the answers reveals > the it is not the case that the shifted bits are lost; the shift mantissas > are rounded according to rules that I can't quite characterize. > > ISOLTS runs many operands through the UFA (Unnormalized Floating Add) > instruction; the current state of my rounding algorithm passes the first 46 > tests; fails on the 47th. Everytime I try a different approach, it fails on > an earlier test. > > The best rule that I have is: if the shifted mantissa is all ones and at > least one of the bits shifted out was a one, the set the mantissa to 0. > > Test #47 adds: > > 700000000000700000000000 E 31. to > 202025452400000000000000 E 102. > > ISOLTS expects > > 202025452377 777777777777 E 102. > > and it gets: > > 202025452400000000000000 E 102. > > The emulator should not have rounded in this case; but I cannot figure out > the rule. > > > I've abstracted the instruction out of the emulator and embedded it in a > standalone test harness that runs the 47 tests. > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/drop/Charles/ufa47.c > > Any insights, suggestions for algorithms, reading material would be greatly > appreciated. > > -- Charles > > > > -- > Lawrence Wilkinson lawrence at ljw.me.uk > The IBM 360/30 page http://www.ljw.me.uk/ibm360 From spacewar at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:48:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 16:48:35 -0600 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: They may effectively have a "sticky" bit, similar to that used in IEEE 754 FP. A sticky bit is used when shifting an operand right; if any one bits are shifted into the stick bit position, the sticky bit becomes 1, but shifting a zero into it does not clear it to zero. IEEE 754 uses the sticky bit to implement correct rounding. In this case, if there's a sticky bit it would prevent a non-zero operand mantissa that is shifted right from ever actually reaching zero. If that operand is negative, that might result in the behavior you're seeing, where one ULP is being subtracted from the other operand. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:52:12 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:52:12 -0700 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:48 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > They may effectively have a "sticky" bit, similar to that used in IEEE > 754 FP. A sticky bit is used when shifting an operand right; if any > one bits are shifted into the stick bit position, the sticky bit > becomes 1, but shifting a zero into it does not clear it to zero. IEEE > 754 uses the sticky bit to implement correct rounding. > > In this case, if there's a sticky bit it would prevent a non-zero > operand mantissa that is shifted right from ever actually reaching > zero. If that operand is negative, that might result in the behavior > you're seeing, where one ULP is being subtracted from the other > operand. > 'sticky bit' is what got me through to the 47th test, so it's close but not quite right. (Assuming I implemented it correctly. "if shifted mantissa is all ones and any ones were shifted out, then set the mantissa to 0".) -- Charles From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:04:13 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:04:13 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: Good call! He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on. I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them or they'd be in storage at my place. So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool. I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years ago on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it. He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens! On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson wrote: > On Mar 12, 2016 10:25 PM, "James Vess" > wrote: > > > > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the > > systems listed? > > > > I would need to see enough interest to go do it though, as even though > I'd > > love to get these and just play with them, but I wouldn't be able to keep > > them. > > > > I can't let myself go nuts collecting as I'm living the apartment life > and > > I don't want to "have to sell" things when I don't want to due to space > > constraints or moving. > > > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali > > wrote: > > > > > > Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine > > > > for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html > > > > > > Sounds fishy/weird? He can only recall having two (maybe more) Next > > > systems but he wants to sell everything in his house and garage for > $600 to > > > make room? At the same time he is willing to take trade so kind of > seems > > > self defeating. > > > > > > I guess if you are in Austin and have time this weekend it is worth a > > > look..... > > > > > > -Ali > > > > > > > > I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's > in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is > always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just > FWIW. > From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:07:22 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:07:22 -0500 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: <56E4455A.1010704@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: Haha! Thanks man! On Sunday, March 13, 2016, geneb wrote: > On Sat, 12 Mar 2016, James Vess wrote: > > I honestly am a bit surprised, as other dealings I've had with groups that >> focus on technology typically are not as welcoming or responsive. >> >> You caught us on a good day. I'm sure you'll get yelled at next week. > > Welcome to the zoo. :) > > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 17:47:39 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 15:47:39 -0700 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: <56E5E6A0.50703@ljw.me.uk> References: <56E5E6A0.50703@ljw.me.uk> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 3:16 PM, Lawrence Wilkinson wrote: > I haven't gone through your code in great detail. In particular I'm > not sure what your rounding algorithm is (towards zero, round to > nearest, etc.) I don't see what you're using the guard bit for, I > would expect it to be appended to the mantissa prior to addition > and rounding. Whether that's significant would depend on how you > expect the rounding to work. > > I was experimenting with the IEEE rounding algorithms, which are driven by guard bit, last bit, sticky bit; I left that data collection in place. Using sticky bit got the best results. You're not sure what the rounding algorithm is because I don't know what it should be. Two suggestions (which you may well have tried): > > 1. Try an extra guard bit. > > if mantissa negative and the last 3 bits shifted out are ones, then round (for this case, set the mantissa to 0)? > 2. Convert to sign+magnitude so you don't have to worry about negative > mantissas (i.e. negate a negative mantissa before shifting and back > again after alignment). > > [So far] the only test failures have been with negative mantissas, so I don't think that I gain anything by going to sign-and-magnitude; I'd be tracking zeros being shifted off instead of ones, which it isn't going to change the rounding algorithm, just the implementation. -- Charles From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:09:17 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:09:17 -0500 Subject: Sun 4/260 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm leery of picking up any boards until I have a unit because I don't want them just gathering dust at my place, however let me know the situation if it's a good idea to wait or not. I'm in Houston by the 610/290 split. On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Were are you located. I may still have the VME boards from the 260 that > where saved from a 260 that had been scrapped > > -pete > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 12:56 AM, James Vess > > wrote: > > > Howdy there folks, > > > > I've been kicking myself for giving away a dying Sun4/260 due to space > > issues and moving about 15 years ago and since then my life has settled > > I've started looking occasionally to see if I can find another one. > > > > Has anyone seen any of these units in a workable condition that are for > > sale or possibly even loan? > > > > I never got a good chance to dig into the one I had and I regret it, just > > looking to recoup lost time :) > > > > Thanks, > > James > > > > > From js at cimmeri.com Sun Mar 13 18:27:45 2016 From: js at cimmeri.com (js at cimmeri.com) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:27:45 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a hoarder junk mine. Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like that, that don't even state what they have and prices? You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers Only." It's also well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious Sellers Only." - J. On 3/13/2016 6:04 PM, James Vess wrote: > Good call! > He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on. > > I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them > or they'd be in storage at my place. > > So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool. > I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years ago > on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that > hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it. > > He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens! > > On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson > wrote: > >> I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's >> in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is >> always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just >> FWIW. >> > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Sun Mar 13 18:38:45 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 23:38:45 -0000 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <02a901d17d81$7c3f4730$74bdd590$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > js at cimmeri.com > Sent: 13 March 2016 23:28 > To: General at classiccmp.org; Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > Subject: Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... > > > Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but > trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a > hoarder junk mine. Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like > that, that don't even state what they have and prices? > > You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers Only." It's > also well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious Sellers Only." > > - J. > > I didn't read it too closely as I am on the wrong side of the pond, but I was curious, so had a quick read. There seem to be at least three different sums of money mentioned, so the "listing" is confusing to say the least. Regards Rob From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 18:50:56 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:50:56 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: Probably true, but it's a weekend and I have time to deal with it so we will just see how it goes, I have some hope but low expectations. On Sunday, March 13, 2016, js at cimmeri.com wrote: > > Chances are, you'll waste a lot of your time dealing with nothing but > trepidation, and get nowhere with what is probably NOT a gold mine.. but a > hoarder junk mine. Seriously, who writes meandering, confused ads like > that, that don't even state what they have and prices? > > You'll very often see ads out there that stipulate, "Serious Buyers > Only." It's also well to heed that it should just as much be, "Serious > Sellers Only." > > - J. > > > > On 3/13/2016 6:04 PM, James Vess wrote: > >> Good call! >> He responded to me and I could hear his trepidation, so this is spot on. >> >> I let him know it would be going to folks who would be taking care of them >> or they'd be in storage at my place. >> >> So, we'll see if he'll let them go and if not that's cool. >> I completely understand as I did something similar with a G4 cube years >> ago >> on CL, I felt bad but I just couldn't let it go because the only guy that >> hit me up was going to do an ATX mod on it. >> >> He said he'd get me some photos, lets will see what happens! >> >> On Sunday, March 13, 2016, Eric Christopherson >> wrote: >> >> I contacted a guy who goes by Obsolete Geek on YouTube and Facebook. He's >>> in Texas (DFW I think) and does haul videos. He says that same guy is >>> always posting on Craigslist but is never willing to actually sell. Just >>> FWIW. >>> >>> >> > From cclist at sydex.com Sun Mar 13 19:32:54 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 17:32:54 -0700 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com> <56E5C998.7040207@sydex.com> <56E5DCF3.9030906@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E606B6.3010301@sydex.com> On 03/13/2016 03:02 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > On the other hand, I'm told that in mass production it is extremely > uncommon for a side of a disk platter to have more than the > allowable number of defects, so it seems more likely that a downspec > hard drive would simply have fewer platters (and heads, etc.) > installed, rather than having some disabled for excessive defects, or > some untested. On the other hand, there were a few small-drive manufacturers back in the day. I don't think that Disctron/Otari ever made it past 20MB--but they certainly had a bunch of single-digit MB drives, including a 2 MB one. It seems that 5.25" hard drive startups came in at least two phases. Some, like Memorex or BASF gave up after a run of low-capacity drives; others started up at the 10MB and up category. I suspect this is due to a certain extent with the economic downturn around 1980. (Remember the days of 18 percent morgages?) Money was tight and inflation was high. The "DRAM war" didn't help much either. (16K DRAMs were a very "hot" property, often in both senses of being in demand and being purloined). Good times... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sun Mar 13 20:17:25 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 01:17:25 +0000 Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com>, Message-ID: I don't recall how many heads a ST506 had. I have one on my NC4000, home brew, machine. I recall picking the drives up at garage sales because DOS no longer supported them, only being 5Meg. Next time I at my storage, I can being my machine home and power it up. I suspect it has the setup information in my source code. I used an old XT HD controller card for the hard drive and a XT floppy card for the floppy. I disabled the EPROM on the HD card because it was useless for the NC4000. The M20 used the 11Meg ( I guess formatted 10 Meg ) drives. I used a ST251 because it had the same number of heads (6) and RPM speed as the Olivetti drive used. It had more cylinders but that wasn't an issue. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Fred Cisin Sent: Sunday, March 13, 2016 3:13 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? Is that "3MB" FORMATTED, or UNFORMATTED capacity? "10MB" (ST412) was 12MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 4 heads. "5MB" (ST406) was 6MB unformatted, with 306 cylinders and 2 heads. or was it (St506?) 153 cylinders with 4 heads? In any case, using half as many heads/surfaces would create an "ST503" drive. about 2.5M formatted capacity. From cisin at xenosoft.com Sun Mar 13 21:39:46 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 19:39:46 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti 3MB ST506-interface drive? In-Reply-To: References: <56E5A32A.60001@gmail.com> <56E5AE4D.6020706@sydex.com> <56E5C1B1.5060002@gmail.com>, Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2016, dwight wrote: > I don't recall how many heads a ST506 had. I have one on my NC4000, > home brew, machine. I recall picking the drives up at garage sales because > DOS no longer supported them, only being 5Meg. ftp://ftp.seagate.com/pub/techsuppt/mfm/st506.txt ftp://ftp.seagate.com/pub/techsuppt/mfm/st406.txt From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 13 21:42:41 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 21:42:41 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160314024241.GA11085@lonesome.com> Fortunately or unfortunately I am away from Austin right now or I would go take a look. mcl From ryan at diskfutility.com Sun Mar 13 23:07:28 2016 From: ryan at diskfutility.com (Ryan Eisworth) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 23:07:28 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: <8B9591A2-05FA-46A4-A997-FC7A70E519FA@diskfutility.com> > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:25 PM, James Vess wrote: > > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the > systems listed? > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > >>> Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine >>> for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html I?m live in Brenham, which is halfway between Houston and Austin. I wish I had read CCTalk earlier as I have been in Austin for the past two days and just got back home. Watching this thread, and would be interested in going in on part of the lot as more details emerge, or helping with pickup/shipping/temporary storage. A lot of unknowns about the lot and condition (and even quantity) of the machines so far though. Best regards, Ryan From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:38:41 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 23:38:41 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <8B9591A2-05FA-46A4-A997-FC7A70E519FA@diskfutility.com> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> <8B9591A2-05FA-46A4-A997-FC7A70E519FA@diskfutility.com> Message-ID: Hey Ryan, Sounds good! I appreciate you reaching out. Once we have a better idea of how this is going to happen and if, I'm sure I'll be in touch. As always, once I have more information from the guy I'll pass it along. On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:07 PM, Ryan Eisworth wrote: > > > On Mar 12, 2016, at 10:25 PM, James Vess > wrote: > > > > I'm in Houston and could make the trip, Anyone here interested in the > > systems listed? > > > > On Sat, Mar 12, 2016 at 5:24 PM, Ali wrote: > > > >>> Unfortunately, I'm nowhere near Austin! But here is a great gold mine > >>> for somebody local http://austin.craigslist.org/sys/5436553322.html > > I?m live in Brenham, which is halfway between Houston and Austin. I wish I > had read CCTalk earlier as I have been in Austin for the past two days and > just got back home. Watching this thread, and would be interested in going > in on part of the lot as more details emerge, or helping with > pickup/shipping/temporary storage. A lot of unknowns about the lot and > condition (and even quantity) of the machines so far though. > > Best regards, > Ryan From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 00:43:22 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (CuriousMarc) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 22:43:22 -0700 Subject: where I've landed In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> Awesome! Marc -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: OT: where I've landed Hi all, I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the news this week: http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now. :-) -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From linimon at lonesome.com Sun Mar 13 21:45:16 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 21:45:16 -0500 Subject: Giving away Garage full of computers In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160314024516.GB11085@lonesome.com> Have you gotten any takers yet? I have a special soft spot for those Printros. mcl From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 13 23:43:43 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 13 Mar 2016 23:43:43 -0500 Subject: Giving away Garage full of computers In-Reply-To: <20160314024516.GB11085@lonesome.com> References: <20160314024516.GB11085@lonesome.com> Message-ID: I just saw this, We're still working on getting the equipment from the guy. So far folks haven't really casted their requests due to the concern about equipment pickup so I may make a quick site to do first-come-first-serve or something once we have all the equip and can review it. I'm not sure what you mean by Printros? I apologize for any ignorance on my behalf. On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 9:45 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > Have you gotten any takers yet? > > I have a special soft spot for those Printros. > > mcl > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Mon Mar 14 01:26:13 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 06:26:13 +0000 Subject: where I've landed In-Reply-To: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> References: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E65985.6070206@btinternet.com> With luck like that I think you shoud start doing the lottery~~ On 14/03/2016 05:43, CuriousMarc wrote: > Awesome! > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. King > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OT: where I've landed > > Hi all, > > I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the news this week: > > http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ > > The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian > > PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now. > :-) > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From spedraja at ono.com Mon Mar 14 02:41:55 2016 From: spedraja at ono.com (SPC) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:41:55 +0100 Subject: where I've landed In-Reply-To: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> References: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: No doubt, dude. Can anyone go to take a lunch? Sergio. 2016-03-14 6:43 GMT+01:00 CuriousMarc : > Awesome! > Marc > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. > King > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: OT: where I've landed > > Hi all, > > I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems > appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the news > this week: > > > http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ > > The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun > literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian > > PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by now. > :-) > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School < > http://ischool.uw.edu> > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > From nf6x at nf6x.net Mon Mar 14 02:47:37 2016 From: nf6x at nf6x.net (Mark J. Blair) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 00:47:37 -0700 Subject: Dumping Images of my VAX-11/730's Drives? In-Reply-To: <01PXONJF9ZWS00CJF2@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PXL2U0GZTW00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <01PXONJF9ZWS00CJF2@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <93519917-1AA4-444C-AAFF-5AFF47EC491B@nf6x.net> Well, I've had partial success in imaging the disks of my VAX-11/730. The RL02 packs transferred just fine to a VM running an older Linux distribution with DECnet support, but the R80 drive copy aborted with a parity error. Details and pictures are on my blog: http://www.nf6x.net/2016/03/imaging-vax-11730-disks/ -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/ From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 14 05:12:32 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 10:12:32 +0000 Subject: Fwd: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Morning folks, Here's a pic of the bookshelves: http://f0p.co.uk/greyWall.jpg Apologies if it's landscape but it looks ok FastStone image viewer and firefox off my webserver. VMS manuals are V5.0, RSTS is V10 (1990) and there's 3 RSX-11M V4 as well as RSX DECNET. Cheers Adrian ---------- Forwarded message ---------- From: Adrian Graham Date: 11 March 2016 at 17:39 Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < cctalk at classiccmp.org> On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which version of > VMS? > > Dave They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. A > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Christian >> Gauger-Cosgrove >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, >> Newmarket UK >> >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham >> wrote: >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take them >>> away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't realise >>> there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! >>> >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What version of >> the >> operating systems? And are they manuals that are already on BitSavers, if >> they're not please scan them? >> >> Regards, >> Christian >> -- >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove >> STCKON08DS0 >> Contact information available upon request. > -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? -- -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 06:40:17 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:40:17 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> Adrian, What is the split? So how many VMS, how many RSX? Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 14 March 2016 10:13 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Fwd: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > Morning folks, > > Here's a pic of the bookshelves: http://f0p.co.uk/greyWall.jpg > > Apologies if it's landscape but it looks ok FastStone image viewer and firefox > off my webserver. > > VMS manuals are V5.0, RSTS is V10 (1990) and there's 3 RSX-11M V4 as well as > RSX DECNET. > > > Cheers > > Adrian > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > From: Adrian Graham > Date: 11 March 2016 at 17:39 > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > > > > > > On 11/03/2016 16:50, "Dave Wade" wrote: > > > How did I miss this! I could do with some older VMS manuals! Which > version of > > VMS? > > > > Dave > > They're in a sales office and I forgot about them when you visited otherwise > you could've taken them. I'm guessing at the versions but it'll probably be > VMS 5.5 and RSTS4 but I can check on Monday. > > A > > > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > Christian > >> Gauger-Cosgrove > >> Sent: 11 March 2016 16:23 > >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > >> > >> Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > >> Newmarket UK > >> > >> On 11 March 2016 at 06:46, Adrian Graham > >> wrote: > >>> We're refitting the last unrefitted office here and there's a full > >>> bookcase of grey heading for the skip unless anyone wants to take > >>> them away? Must admit in the 12 years I've worked here I didn't > >>> realise there was a shelf of RSTS manuals! > >>> > >> I'm on the wrong side of the Atlantic, but I've got to ask: What > >> version > of > >> the > >> operating systems? And are they manuals that are already on > >> BitSavers, if they're not please scan them? > >> > >> Regards, > >> Christian > >> -- > >> Christian M. Gauger-Cosgrove > >> STCKON08DS0 > >> Contact information available upon request. > > > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > > > > -- > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 06:50:50 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:50:50 +0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 14 March 2016 at 11:40, Dave Wade wrote: > Adrian, > What is the split? So how many VMS, how many RSX? > Hi Dave, The RSX ones are the orange ones in the picture, I count 11 RSTS and the rest are VMS5. -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 14 08:56:53 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:56:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160314135653.8860618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > I get bloody impressed just watching it on the emulator; doing it in a > production environment must have been spectacular. Even though I never did do any programming on Multics myself (I had an account on the MIT system, and logged in a bit), I still feel that _as an environment for system programming_, it's _still_ far ahead of almost all the available competition. Unix V6 at least had the grace of simplicity and incredibly small size; its descendants have lost that, and so to me Linux, for example, is entirely inferior to Multics. Which to me is a pretty awesome accomplishment, in a field as fast-moving as computers - the only thing that even vaguely compares is the A-12/SR-71, which today, 17 years after it retired in 1998 (it first flew in 1962), _still_ holds the record for the fastest air-breathing aircraft. There is one axis along which I concede that things have advanced since Multics, which is away from monolithic kernels - Multics is pretty much one big lump in ring 0, except a few things in ring 1. But the complete structing of the system around a segmented, single-level memory system (at least, in terms of the environment the user sees) is such a fantastic idea that I simply don't understand why that hasn't become the standard. (The ability to map files in, and DLL's, do get a lot of that power, but in an ad hoc, inelegant, and less powerful way.) A few now-defunct system (e.g Apollo) picked up on it, but the only OS today I know of based around the concept is the IBM i, the descendant of the Control Program Facility OS on the System/38. Sigh. (And apologies for the rant, it's one of my hot buttons.. :-) Noel From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 09:23:22 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 10:23:22 -0400 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5A88FEF2-E67D-4DF2-BD2F-A72D51AD821A@comcast.net> > On Mar 13, 2016, at 4:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and > pedantic processor test program. > > It is unhappy with our emulated floating point. > > This should be the floating point used by the GE 6xx series and the > Honeywell DPS8 and 6000 series. > > There is one particular failure that I am driven to seeking help for. > > If the intricacies of mainframe floating point math h/w do not interest > you, time to delete this message and move on. > > For add and subtract operations, the operand with the smaller has its > mantissa shifted right and the exponent incremented adjusted until the > exponents match. > > From the DPS8M assembly language manual: > > "The mantissas are aligned by shifting the mantissa of the operand > having the algebraically smaller exponent to the right the number of > places equal to the absolute value of the difference in the two > exponents. Bits shifted beyond the bit position equivalent to AQ71 are > lost." > > Sadly, ISOLTS complains about our implementation. It does helpfully provide > what it says are the correct answers. Examination of the answers reveals > the it is not the case that the shifted bits are lost; the shift mantissas > are rounded according to rules that I can't quite characterize. You may need to examine the schematics rather than rely on the manual. It's all too common that the manual only describes a rough approximation of reality. A very nice in depth treatment of an old floating point implementation is here: "Design and correctness proof of an emulation of the floating-point operations of the Electrologica X8: a case study" by F.E.J. Kruseman Aretz - http://repository.tue.nl/674735 . That's a different machine, obviously, but it might give you some ideas to explore. Still, rather than experiment with different implementations to look for one that passes diagnostics, working from the real design seems like the best approach. IEEE float algorithms may not be all that helpful; IEEE float came much later. paul From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 09:26:54 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 10:26:54 -0400 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <896BC694-00DD-42CD-AC47-3C2AF8CB114D@comcast.net> > On Mar 14, 2016, at 6:12 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: > > Morning folks, > > Here's a pic of the bookshelves: http://f0p.co.uk/greyWall.jpg > > Apologies if it's landscape but it looks ok FastStone image viewer and > firefox off my webserver. > > VMS manuals are V5.0, RSTS is V10 (1990) ... Bitsavers has only a quick reference guide for V10, so this would make a very good addition. V10 is the last RSTS release. It looks like the last fairly complete manual set on Bitsavers is all the way back to V6, which is very different indeed. paul From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Mar 14 09:41:25 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 08:41:25 -0600 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 9:41 AM, Rick Bensene wrote: > Michael Thompson wrote: > > > > The NiCad batteries for emergency head retract are toast. These look like > > standard 1.2V 2/3AA 400mAh cells. It looks like some cordless phones use > the > > same batteries so I can buy an assembled 4.8V battery pack. > > > > Any other suggestions for replacement batteries for the RK05? > > > > > I've used those 4.8V rechargeable battery packs for cordless phones as the > emergency retract batteries in a few RK05 drives, and they seem to work > just fine. Just make sure you get a NiCd pack rather than NiMH as there > are charging differences and I'm not sure if NiMH batteries would be happy > in the charging circuit of an RK05 (but, who knows, they may work, I just > haven't tried it). > > -Rick > The Old Calculator Museum > http://oldcalculatormuseum.com > The only difference in NiMH and NiCd charging schemes occurs when rapid charging them. When rapid charging both types would use a DV/DT technique coupled with a temperature sensor. The DV/DT is much smaller for NiMH than NiCd. So if they went to the effort to recharge fast after an event (why since you could probably do several retracts on a charge) you would not want to use NiMH replacement batteries. It is unlikely that anything other than a trickle charge was used with these batteries since it is cheap, simple and reliable. The trickle current would have been 30 to 50 ma. I would not use the low self discharge NiMH cells (Panasonic Eneloop or Energizer Recharge) as they would convert more of the trickle current to heat and suffer a short life in this application. Non low self discharge NiMH should work fine. I think I have a box of unused Sanyo 500-AR cells. If you need some I could do a quick test and see if any are still good enough to use. The 500-AR are about 1/2 A size. I am sure you can find the dimensions online. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From jhfinedp3k at compsys.to Mon Mar 14 11:11:26 2016 From: jhfinedp3k at compsys.to (Jerome H. Fine) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:11:26 -0500 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <98305b88-0b49-482d-bd38-c58fb6c926ef@classiccmp.org> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> <98305b88-0b49-482d-bd38-c58fb6c926ef@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <56E6E2AE.9060201@compsys.to> >Richard Cini wrote: >All ? > > To close this out, I want to report that with Malcolm?s and Mattis? help, I was able to get RT-11 v4 and v5.03 running on the H-11 using the TU58 emulator. > > Avoiding the gory details, the upshot is that there was a bus interrupt issue relating to how the cards were installed ? I had the slot numbering wrong so there was a gap between two cards. RT-11 started booting and then barfed during the boot. > > Once I moved the second SLU to the right position, RT-11 booted properly. So, now I have both RT-11 v4 and v5 running on the H-11. Hooray! > > Thanks to all who helped push me along on this. I did create a separate Heath page on my Web site for it. > >Rich > >-- >Rich Cini >http://www.classiccmp.org/cini >http://www.classiccmp.org/altair32 > Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Now that you have a working system, will it be used to run any specific programs? Based on your descriptions, the most important aspect of the project was to get the H-11 system to run RT-11. What I am very curious about is what do you will do with the system now that it is running? >From what you have stated, both stock versions of RT-11, V04.00 and V05.03, are being used rather than the Heath supplied versions of RT-11. Can you please confirm this assumption? As for the interrupt problems, using an M9047 bus grant card would probably also have solved the problem - if you have one. At this point, do you have any other storage other than the emulated TU58? If so, is it a Heath product or a real DEC product and which storage is it? Jerome Fine From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Mon Mar 14 10:23:10 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:23:10 -0400 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <896BC694-00DD-42CD-AC47-3C2AF8CB114D@comcast.net> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <896BC694-00DD-42CD-AC47-3C2AF8CB114D@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56E6D75E.8030008@yahoo.com> On 3/14/2016 10:26 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> On Mar 14, 2016, at 6:12 AM, Adrian Graham wrote: >> >> Morning folks, >> >> Here's a pic of the bookshelves: http://f0p.co.uk/greyWall.jpg >> >> Apologies if it's landscape but it looks ok FastStone image viewer and >> firefox off my webserver. >> >> VMS manuals are V5.0, RSTS is V10 (1990) ... > > Bitsavers has only a quick reference guide for V10, so this would make a very good addition. V10 is the last RSTS release. It looks like the last fairly complete manual set on Bitsavers is all the way back to V6, which is very different indeed. > > paul > > > I would PayPal someone a few $$$ as incentive to get the RSTS/E saved and scanned. Perhaps others would donate? John H. Reinhardt From rich.cini at verizon.net Mon Mar 14 10:23:29 2016 From: rich.cini at verizon.net (Richard Cini) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 11:23:29 -0400 Subject: Which RT-11 for an 11/03 In-Reply-To: <56E6E2AE.9060201@compsys.to> References: <0A1DDA9E-EB5C-4F4A-85FB-DB1EC2A868AD@verizon.net> <56E37D3A.7010208@compsys.to> <98305b88-0b49-482d-bd38-c58fb6c926ef@classiccmp.org> <56E6E2AE.9060201@compsys.to> Message-ID: > Congratulations!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thanks! > Now that you have a working system, will it be used to run any specific > programs? Based on your descriptions, the most important aspect of > the project was to get the H-11 system to run RT-11. What I am very > curious about is what do you will do with the system now that it is running? Nothing specific in mind right now. I have BASIC but I want to get Fortran installed so I can run Adventure. This is all for fun rather than a specific application. > From what you have stated, both stock versions of RT-11, V04.00 and > V05.03, are being used rather than the Heath supplied versions of RT-11. > Can you please confirm this assumption? Correct, both from SIMH. Stock version of v4 in an RK format with DD as the boot device. Right now I only have a simple v5.03 in tape format from Malcolm and not in RK or RL formats. > As for the interrupt problems, using an M9047 bus grant card would > probably also have solved the problem - if you have one. I don't have one but now that I know how the slots are numbered I should be ok. > At this point, do you have any other storage other than the emulated TU58? > If so, is it a Heath product or a real DEC product and which storage is it? I don't have any other storage media at this point, DEC or Heath. I believe Heath only produced a floppy system for it. I don't have any Heath-specific software packages. Space in the shop is at a premium so I'm glad that I have the TU58 emulator. Rich From g at kurico.com Mon Mar 14 10:52:20 2016 From: g at kurico.com (George Currie) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 09:52:20 -0600 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> <56E5F771.7060801@cimmeri.com> Message-ID: <49d3d8bd314f291b51ba764b63aa0ae4@mail.mxes.net> On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:50:56 -0500, James Vess wrote: > Probably true, but it's a weekend and I have time to deal with it so > we > will just see how it goes, I have some hope but low expectations. > I've communicated with him in the past. He seems like a nice enough fellow, but IMHO the prices he was asking for his stuff was way to high. His ads have been in the local CL for a long time now, so I assume he's not in a big hurry to sell or let things go at firesale prices (though maybe it's been long enough now that he'd be more open to it). From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 14 11:22:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:22:25 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <004901d17e0d$b1e08110$15a18330$@ntlworld.com> The picture is just a bit too fuzzy for me to work out how many shelf-feet the RSTS and RSX manuals take up. Regards Rob > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Adrian > Graham > Sent: 14 March 2016 11:51 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > On 14 March 2016 at 11:40, Dave Wade wrote: > > > Adrian, > > What is the split? So how many VMS, how many RSX? > > > > Hi Dave, > > The RSX ones are the orange ones in the picture, I count 11 RSTS and the rest > are VMS5. > > -- > adrian/witchy > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 11:43:25 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 16:43:25 -0000 Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: <004901d17e0d$b1e08110$15a18330$@ntlworld.com> References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> <004901d17e0d$b1e08110$15a18330$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <03aa01d17e10$a18d3ee0$e4a7bca0$@gmail.com> That?s a lot of manuals. I am OK with scanning them, but then they would have to go. Dave > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert > Jarratt > Sent: 14 March 2016 16:22 > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > > Subject: RE: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > Newmarket UK > > The picture is just a bit too fuzzy for me to work out how many shelf-feet the > RSTS and RSX manuals take up. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of > > Adrian Graham > > Sent: 14 March 2016 11:51 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, > > Newmarket UK > > > > On 14 March 2016 at 11:40, Dave Wade wrote: > > > > > Adrian, > > > What is the split? So how many VMS, how many RSX? > > > > > > > Hi Dave, > > > > The RSX ones are the orange ones in the picture, I count 11 RSTS and > > the rest are VMS5. > > > > -- > > adrian/witchy > > Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? > > www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Mon Mar 14 11:55:23 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 17:55:23 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote: > The only difference in NiMH and NiCd charging schemes occurs when rapid > charging them. When rapid charging both types would use a DV/DT technique > coupled with a temperature sensor. The DV/DT is much smaller for NiMH than > NiCd. So if they went to the effort to recharge fast after an event (why > since you could probably do several retracts on a charge) you would not > want to use NiMH replacement batteries. It is unlikely that anything other > than a trickle charge was used with these batteries since it is cheap, > simple and reliable. The trickle current would have been 30 to 50 ma. I Hello... we're talking about an RK05... no fast or trickle charging at all. The battery charge circuit consists of a 750 ohms resitor in series with a D672 diode and the battery, attached between ground and -15V. Christian From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 14 12:01:18 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 13:01:18 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> Message-ID: <2C89D520-CE42-4114-9EC1-64A2FE3FBB51@comcast.net> > On Mar 14, 2016, at 12:55 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > > On Mon, 14 Mar 2016, Doug Ingraham wrote: >> The only difference in NiMH and NiCd charging schemes occurs when rapid >> charging them. When rapid charging both types would use a DV/DT technique >> coupled with a temperature sensor. The DV/DT is much smaller for NiMH than >> NiCd. So if they went to the effort to recharge fast after an event (why >> since you could probably do several retracts on a charge) you would not >> want to use NiMH replacement batteries. It is unlikely that anything other >> than a trickle charge was used with these batteries since it is cheap, >> simple and reliable. The trickle current would have been 30 to 50 ma. I > > Hello... we're talking about an RK05... no fast or trickle charging at all. The battery charge circuit consists of a 750 ohms resitor in series with a D672 diode and the battery, attached between ground and -15V. That fits with Doug's comment: 20 mA charge current (ignoring the internal resistance of the battery). Interesting that they used a battery; I thought the usual mechanism was a large capacitor, I hadn't seen batteries used for this. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Mon Mar 14 12:38:33 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 13:38:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160314135653.8860618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160314135653.8860618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201603141738.NAA18746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > There is one axis along which I concede that things have advanced > since Multics, which is away from monolithic kernels - Whether that is an advance or a regression depends on your priorities. I see good arguments each way. > But the complete structing of the system around a segmented, > single-level memory system (at least, in terms of the environment the > user sees) is such a fantastic idea that I simply don't understand > why that hasn't become the standard. Well, what was the largest virtual memory space available on various machines? On the VAX, it was either one gig or two gig, depending on whether you count just P0 space or both P0 and P1. When you're mapping objects of uncertain size, that seems awfully constraining - and, depending on the page table architecture in use, it can cost a lot of RAM to get even that much; the VAX, for example, needs eight megs of RAM to map one gig of space, and that doesn't even account for any memory used to back any of that space. And, back in the heyday of the VAX, eight megs was a lot of RAM. Now that 64-bit address space is becoming common, eight megs of RAM is ignorably small, and multi-level page tables are common, this looks a lot less impossible. I've been tempted to build something of the source, but I never got to use real Multics, and I would probably have trouble shaking free of the POSIX mindset. I should dig up some 64-bit machines and try to find enough documentation to build OSes for them.... /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 14 12:39:25 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 12:39:25 -0500 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <2C89D520-CE42-4114-9EC1-64A2FE3FBB51@comcast.net> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> <2C89D520-CE42-4114-9EC1-64A2FE3FBB51@comcast.net> Message-ID: <004601d17e18$737d6e50$5a784af0$@classiccmp.org> Paul wrote.... ----- Interesting that they used a battery; I thought the usual mechanism was a large capacitor, I hadn't seen batteries used for this. ----- It's now foggy memory, but I'm pretty sure HP 7900A (and 7901) were using batteries for emergency head retract. The later 7905/7906 - caps. J From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Mon Mar 14 12:52:12 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 17:52:12 +0000 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <004601d17e18$737d6e50$5a784af0$@classiccmp.org> References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> <2C89D520-CE42-4114-9EC1-64A2FE3FBB51@comcast.net>, <004601d17e18$737d6e50$5a784af0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > It's now foggy memory, but I'm pretty sure HP 7900A (and 7901) were using > batteries for emergency head retract. The 7900 certainly does (there is one to go on my bench when I have some spare time). In that case it's some AA-size NiCds (not tagged ones) in those aluminium clip-in holders (Radio Shack used to sell them, I think Mouser still do). The DEC RK07 (and I assume RK06) used 8 1/2 AA cells in a pack (like 2 RK05 retract batteries in series). When I replaced those, I used 2 of the cordless telephone batteries (that have been recommended for the RK05) in series. I am told some later drives used the spindle motor as a generator when the power failed to provide the power for emergency retraction. -tony From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 12:59:14 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 10:59:14 -0700 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <201603141738.NAA18746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160314135653.8860618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603141738.NAA18746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Mouse wrote: > > Now that 64-bit address space is becoming common, eight megs of RAM is > ignorably small, and multi-level page tables are common, this looks a > lot less impossible. I've been tempted to build something of the > source, but I never got to use real Multics, and I would probably have > trouble shaking free of the POSIX mindset. > > I desperately want to port Multics to a modern architecture, but there is a profound road-block: the way that Multics does virtual memory is very, very different, and just does not map onto current virtual memory architecture. I do believe that it is possible (tho not necessarily feasible) to take an open source architecture (OR1000 for example) and add an additional page table level to support the segment architecture; then you need to extend the instruction set to support the clever indirect address exceptions that allow directed faults and linkage offset tables; tweak the C compiler to understand segment pointers (something along the line of 'near' and 'far' pointers. Then there is subtle issue in the way the Multics does the stack -- the h/w didn't have actual stacks; a index register was assigned as the stack pointer, and a pointer register as the stack segment pointer. This means that stack addresses, heap address and data addresses are all in separate address spaces, requiring 'far' pointers to access. I think it is possible to move them all into the same space, but that will require a lot of tinkering with the way that Multics deals with stack and process space. (Also, Multics stacks grow upward -- great for protection against buffer overrun attacks, but a pain in a modern architecture.) -- Charles From RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org Mon Mar 14 14:05:31 2016 From: RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org (Rich Alderson) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:05:31 +0000 Subject: Type 270 disk file on PDP-6 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECEE903@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> From: Eric Smith Sent: Saturday, March 12, 2016 8:52 PM > I just was looking at the I/O device code assignments in the 1973 > DECsystem-10 System Reference Manual, and happened to notice the entry > for the Type 270 disk file used on the PDP-6. > PDP-6 and PDP-10 device codes are three octal digits, of which the > third digit can only be 0 or 4. > The device code for the Type 270 is octal 270. Coincidence? :-) Probably. Kind of. More or less. The disk file is called a 5022. The 270 is the disk file *control*, and yes, it has device code 270, but it attaches to the data control type 136 (device code 200). Other things connecting to the 136 are the microtape control type 551 (device codes 210 and 214) and the magnetic tape control type 516 (device codes 220, 224, and 230). Device codes were assigned sequentially, and the disk file control was not originally part[1] of the PDP-6 system, so it probably just got the next number available. That some wag decided to use that as the type number was more or less likely when it came down the pike. Rich [1] Based on the fact that it was built using Flip Chips, initially invented for the PDP-7, rather than System Modules (either the kind used in the PDP-1, PDP-3,[2] PDP-4, and PDP-5, or the extended kind invented for the PDP-6). [2] Remember that while DEC did not build a PDP-3, a customer rumored to have been a front for the NSA did. DEC sold designs as well as actual hardware in the early days. Rich Alderson Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer Living Computer Museum 2245 1st Avenue S Seattle, WA 98134 mailto:RichA at LivingComputerMuseum.org http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/ From a.carlini at ntlworld.com Mon Mar 14 08:15:02 2016 From: a.carlini at ntlworld.com (CARLINI ANTONIO) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 13:15:02 +0000 (GMT) Subject: VMS/RSTS/RSX manuals available, SOC, DECdirect books, Newmarket UK In-Reply-To: References: <038c01d17bb6$2a2272a0$7e6757e0$@gmail.com> <022e01d17de6$48c00970$da401c50$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <1145920525.3044402.1457961302244.JavaMail.open-xchange@oxbe20.tb.ukmail.iss.as9143.net> > > On 14 March 2016 at 11:50 Adrian Graham wrote: > Hi Dave, > > The RSX ones are the orange ones in the picture, I count 11 RSTS and the > rest are VMS5. > The bottom row (and maybe the one above) look like they might not be VMS, but I can't make out the titles. Antonio From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 23:10:15 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 21:10:15 -0700 Subject: DEC H7104-D power supply tips? Message-ID: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> Hi all -- My call for a VAX-11/750 a month or so ago actually bore some fruit (locally, even!) and as of a couple of weeks ago, I now have a very nicely configured 11/750 system taking up most of the basement. The previous owner got it after it was retired from a local(ish) university in the mid 1990s and it has not been powered on since then. Apparently at the time of its retirement the power supplies were exhibiting "random issues." (No more detail is available than that on the history...) At any rate, I went through the two power supplies (and the small pilot supply in the power controller) and found a lot of leaky capacitors (as in, yellow/brown goo was coming out of maybe 2/3 of them) so I went ahead and recapped the whole thing. At the moment I have things running on a dummy load in the 11/750 chassis. (the harnesses are still hooked to the chassis backplane, but all cards have been pulled, and the backplanes thoroughly checked for bent pins, etc.) The H7104-C (2.5V) supply seems to be working fine but the main 5V supply in the H7104-D is not doing so well (and as a result the other voltages it's supposed to be producing are also not present). The Power Controller lights up the "Reg. Fail" lamp (I don't know why the 5V Fail lamp isn't also on) and the 5V supply emits a loud (somewhere around 400Hz?) whine/squeal. I get about .3V out of it with a load. Without a load there's no squeal and I get about 5.6V, but that's not particularly useful. I've double-checked everything in the H7104-D and there's nothing obviously wrong (no caps installed backwards, no scorched components). At the moment the H7104-D is hooked up only to a dummy load, so it's not anything on the backplane shorting out or causing issues. This is another one of those cases where I've gotten myself in over my head with large, complicated power supplies -- anyone have any experience with these? Any tips? Thanks as always, Josh From spacewar at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 23:25:55 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 22:25:55 -0600 Subject: Type 270 disk file on PDP-6 In-Reply-To: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECEE903@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> References: <539CFBE84C931A4E8516F3BBEA36C7AA01AECEE903@505MBX2.corp.vnw.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Rich Alderson wrote: > Device codes were assigned sequentially, Though assigned sequentially within groups with a different leading digit, i.e., 0XX, 1XX, 2XX, and 3XX, and (later) some PDP-10 peripherals assigned in 4XX. > and the disk file control was > not originally part[1] of the PDP-6 system, so it probably just got the > next number available. That some wag decided to use that as the type > number was more or less likely when it came down the pike. AFAICT they skipped over 234, 240, 244, 250, 254, 260, and 264, to give the Type 270 the device code 270. 240 through 264 were later assigned for DC10 data line scanners, RA10 disk files, and RP10 disk packs. 270 was later assigned to the RH10 Massbus with RS04 disk. Presumably they expected few sites to run both a 270 and an RS04, though the RH10 could be assigned other different device codes, most commonly 274, 360, 364, 370, or 374. From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 00:46:21 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 06:46:21 +0100 Subject: DEC H7104-D power supply tips? In-Reply-To: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: tisdag 15 mars 2016 skrev Josh Dersch : > Hi all -- > > My call for a VAX-11/750 a month or so ago actually bore some fruit > (locally, even!) and as of a couple of weeks ago, I now have a very nicely > configured 11/750 system taking up most of the basement. The previous > owner got it after it was retired from a local(ish) university in the mid > 1990s and it has not been powered on since then. Apparently at the time of > its retirement the power supplies were exhibiting "random issues." (No > more detail is available than that on the history...) > > At any rate, I went through the two power supplies (and the small pilot > supply in the power controller) and found a lot of leaky capacitors (as in, > yellow/brown goo was coming out of maybe 2/3 of them) so I went ahead and > recapped the whole thing. > > At the moment I have things running on a dummy load in the 11/750 > chassis. (the harnesses are still hooked to the chassis backplane, but all > cards have been pulled, and the backplanes thoroughly checked for bent > pins, etc.) The H7104-C (2.5V) supply seems to be working fine but the main > 5V supply in the H7104-D is not doing so well (and as a result the other > voltages it's supposed to be producing are also not present). The Power > Controller lights up the "Reg. Fail" lamp (I don't know why the 5V Fail > lamp isn't also on) and the 5V supply emits a loud (somewhere around > 400Hz?) whine/squeal. I get about .3V out of it with a load. Without a > load there's no squeal and I get about 5.6V, but that's not particularly > useful. > > I've double-checked everything in the H7104-D and there's nothing > obviously wrong (no caps installed backwards, no scorched components). At > the moment the H7104-D is hooked up only to a dummy load, so it's not > anything on the backplane shorting out or causing issues. > > This is another one of those cases where I've gotten myself in over my > head with large, complicated power supplies -- anyone have any experience > with these? Any tips? You can read the story of my 11/750 power supply repairs in this article: http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 Loud squealing noise was in my case due to short-ciricuit output rectifiers for the 5V. Check them. Then also chech the main chopper transistors. /Mattis > Thanks as always, > Josh > > From mark.kahrs at gmail.com Mon Mar 14 18:04:57 2016 From: mark.kahrs at gmail.com (Mark Kahrs) Date: Mon, 14 Mar 2016 19:04:57 -0400 Subject: Promac-P3 PAL/PROM programmer Message-ID: I have a Promac-P3 PROM/PAL programmer. I'd like to get rid of it. I'll give it away, you just have to pay shipping. It includes a copy of the schematics. Send email offlist if interested. From linimon at lonesome.com Tue Mar 15 01:54:51 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 01:54:51 -0500 Subject: Giving away Garage full of computers In-Reply-To: References: <20160314024516.GB11085@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20160315065451.GA20702@lonesome.com> On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 11:43:43PM -0500, James Vess wrote: > I'm not sure what you mean by Printros? Printronixeses or something :-) I am heading back into Austin within the next 12 hours so if someone wants me to scout out something speak up quickly. Once I get back home I may take my shoes off and that will be the end for a few days. mcl From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Tue Mar 15 04:31:29 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 10:31:29 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <923A614D09D64B4D94D588FCAFD04C1702A0CC@mail.bensene.com> <2C89D520-CE42-4114-9EC1-64A2FE3FBB51@comcast.net>, <004601d17e18$737d6e50$5a784af0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: On Mon, 14 Mar 2016, tony duell wrote: > I am told some later drives used the spindle motor as a generator when the > power failed to provide the power for emergency retraction. Yes, the HP 7905/7906 does this for example. Christian From stefan.skoglund at agj.net Tue Mar 15 09:23:52 2016 From: stefan.skoglund at agj.net (Stefan Skoglund (lokal =?ISO-8859-1?Q?anv=E4ndare=29?=) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 15:23:52 +0100 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <201603141738.NAA18746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160314135653.8860618C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603141738.NAA18746@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <1458051832.21204.1.camel@agj.net> m?n 2016-03-14 klockan 13:38 -0400 skrev Mouse: > > There is one axis along which I concede that things have advanced > > since Multics, which is away from monolithic kernels - > > Whether that is an advance or a regression depends on your priorities. > I see good arguments each way. > > > But the complete structing of the system around a segmented, > > single-level memory system (at least, in terms of the environment the > > user sees) is such a fantastic idea that I simply don't understand > > why that hasn't become the standard. > > Well, what was the largest virtual memory space available on various > machines? On the VAX, it was either one gig or two gig, depending on > whether you count just P0 space or both P0 and P1. When you're mapping > objects of uncertain size, that seems awfully constraining - and, > depending on the page table architecture in use, it can cost a lot of > RAM to get even that much; the VAX, for example, needs eight megs of > RAM to map one gig of space, and that doesn't even account for any > memory used to back any of that space. And, back in the heyday of the > VAX, eight megs was a lot of RAM. Which is one of the reason why the POWER architecture was done the way it was done. How much table space is needed is directly decided by the machine's amount of RAM (in POWER 1 at least.) From barythrin at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 09:55:58 2016 From: barythrin at gmail.com (Sam O'nella) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 09:55:58 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... Message-ID: <4mkw4d9sfjroi7q8m64jowba.1458053574211@email.android.com> Ditto. ?Talked to him last year some time. I think he's a nice guy and cou himself in a situation that any of us and some do end up in. ?Too much of a good thing. Funnier is i always read his posts and could pretty much copy and paste them as my own.? Either way i think he does have some nice gear but he knows like us the value and isn't looking to get rid of things afaik. Nothing wrong with that. At the time we talked we also spoke about trades being desirable more than cash flow. ? Not sure if he hangs out here or other forums.?
-------- Original message --------
From: George Currie
Date:03/14/2016 10:52 AM (GMT-06:00)
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
Subject: Re: A gold mine for anybody in Austin...
On Sun, 13 Mar 2016 18:50:56 -0500, James Vess wrote: > Probably true, but it's a weekend and I have time to deal with it so > we > will just see how it goes, I have some hope but low expectations. > I've communicated with him in the past. He seems like a nice enough fellow, but IMHO the prices he was asking for his stuff was way to high. His ads have been in the local CL for a long time now, so I assume he's not in a big hurry to sell or let things go at firesale prices (though maybe it's been long enough now that he'd be more open to it). From bob at theadamsons.co.uk Tue Mar 15 15:08:58 2016 From: bob at theadamsons.co.uk (Robert Adamson) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:08:58 -0000 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> Interestingly(?) both my RK05 and RK05J had an assembly of 3, not 4, 2/3rd AA NiCd cells for retract, completely decayed of course. I replaced them with 3 discrete tagged NiMh AA cells (plenty of headroom) soldered and shrinkwrapped. They work fine, lots of retract force. The clip which holds them is shaped for only 3 cells so it seems as though there were at least 2 variants. I read the circuit diagram and could see that it would make little difference whether it was NiCd or NiMh (or for that matter 3 or 4 cells). I think DEC were a bit overgenerous with the trickle current (though IIRC NiCds were rather leakier back then). > From: tony duell > > The DEC RK07 (and I assume RK06) used 8 1/2 AA cells in a pack (like > 2 RK05 retract batteries in series). When I replaced those, I used 2 of > the cordless telephone batteries (that have been recommended for > the RK05) in series. > > -tony From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 15 15:25:06 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 16:25:06 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> References: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> Message-ID: > On Mar 15, 2016, at 4:08 PM, Robert Adamson wrote: > > Interestingly(?) both my RK05 and RK05J had an assembly of 3, not 4, 2/3rd > AA NiCd cells for retract, completely decayed of course. I replaced them > with 3 discrete tagged NiMh AA cells (plenty of headroom) From the various comments, it sounds like NiMH is a useable substitute. On the other hand, NiCd batteries are still readily available. paul From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 17:42:21 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:42:21 -0500 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M Message-ID: Does anyone have, or has anyone used, one of these machines? Specifically the M10/M20 models, with 5.25" disks? I have a vendor box here with manual and CP/M 2.2 boot disk for the if800 and I've been trying to make a usable[1] image of the disk, currently with the Kryoflux and their dtc conversion tool. I sent the flux reads of the disk off to the KF team and they found it interesting enough to study, but there is precious little documentation out there about this machine, much less its disk format. Looking at the scatter plots of the magnetic flux on the disk, I can see that it's 40 track and double sided. Converting the dump to a DS/DD MFM disk image yields many warnings and errors, but also a file with plenty of discernible strings, so that's at least on the right track. Images of reads of the two sides done separately show alternating fragments of the strings of the full read, telling me that it is a contiguous volume using both sides and not two single-sided volumes. One ad I found (mostly in Japanese,) suggests that the if800 drives are 280K. That's an odd number (to me) for a 5.25" disk. -j [1] I have neither the real machine nor an emulator to use them, so this is mostly just an academic exercise in learning about disk formats and disk imaging, for now. But AIUI, if the disk's attributes are known, it should be browsable with a tool like cpmls from the CPMTools package. From sellam at vintagetech.com Tue Mar 15 16:42:54 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 14:42:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Computer for sale Message-ID: I am raising capital for a forthcoming venture dealing with vintage computers and thus am putting the following systems up for sale. Please visit the URL for photos and information (located in the Information file, if applicable) for each system. All prices are negotiable. PDP 8A System 1: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%201/ Asking $900 System 2: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%202/ Asking $450 System 3: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%203/ Asking $300 Heathkit H11 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/Heathkit%20H11/ Asking $750 ADM 3A http://vintagetech.com/sales/ADM%203A/ Asking $250 Friden 132 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Friden%20132/ Asking $1,500 ATR8000 (Atari 800 Z80 coprocessor box for running CP/M) http://vintagetech.com/sales/Micros/ATR8000/ Asking $500 Digital Microsystems CP/M computer http://vintagetech.com/sales/Micros/Digital%20Microsystems/ Asking $350 Integrated Computer Systems Microprocessor Training Lab http://vintagetech.com/sales/Micros/Integrated%20Computer%20Systems/ Asking $400 SWTPC 6800 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Micros/SWTPC%206800/Information Asking $950 Teleram 3000 http://vintagetech.com/sales/Micros/Teleram%203000/ Asking $650 Fulcrum Computer Products IMSAI 8080 clone http://vintagetech.com/sales/S-100/Fulcrum/ Asking $1,200 MITS Modem boardset http://vintagetech.com/sales/S-100/MITS%20Modem/ Asking $250 Polymorphic Systems POLY-88 http://vintagetech.com/sales/S-100/Polymorphic%20Systems%20POLY88/ Asking $1,250 Wang 380K Programmable Calculator with 362E terminal http://vintagetech.com/sales/Wang%20362E/ Asking $1,100 Please also see additional systems for sale (including a pair of IBM 3420 tape drives with 3803 controller) in the photos here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/ Please inquiry directly for more information. Thanks! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 15 19:01:40 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 17:01:40 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> On 03/15/2016 03:42 PM, Jason T wrote: > [1] I have neither the real machine nor an emulator to use them, so > this is mostly just an academic exercise in learning about disk > formats and disk imaging, for now. But AIUI, if the disk's > attributes are known, it should be browsable with a tool like cpmls > from the CPMTools package. 22Disk has the definition, which is the same as the BMC IF800 (it was marketed under both brandings). I have samples in my files. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 19:35:05 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:35:05 -0500 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 22Disk has the definition, which is the same as the BMC IF800 (it was > marketed under both brandings). I have samples in my files. Ah, so it has, under both the BMC and the OKI names. I was going to try it with imgdisk and 22disk eventually, but I was in a KF experimentation phase. From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 15 20:10:53 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:10:53 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56E8B29D.9010305@sydex.com> On 03/15/2016 05:35 PM, Jason T wrote: > Ah, so it has, under both the BMC and the OKI names. I was going to > try it with imgdisk and 22disk eventually, but I was in a KF > experimentation phase. A plain old PC with legacy FDC will work just fine. A little mouse tickling my memory indicates that the IF800 was one of the systems used by Gene Roddenberry. I don't recall if it was BMC or OKI, however. --Chuck From cisin at xenosoft.com Tue Mar 15 20:57:15 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 18:57:15 -0700 (PDT) Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: <56E8B29D.9010305@sydex.com> References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> <56E8B29D.9010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: >> Ah, so it has, under both the BMC and the OKI names. I was going to >> try it with imgdisk and 22disk eventually, but I was in a KF >> experimentation phase. On Tue, 15 Mar 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: > A plain old PC with legacy FDC will work just fine. > A little mouse tickling my memory indicates that the IF800 was one of the > systems used by Gene Roddenberry. I don't recall if it was BMC or OKI, > however. It might be necessary to go slightly below INT13h. I remember something weird about it, but can't remember what. Maybe it had invalid head numbers on the second side? In addition to the CP/M, the Oki if800 also existed with a version of Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC; similar, but not a match for the NEC 8001. Don't know how wide spread that was, the disks that I worked on were some that Lee Felsenstein brought back from Soviet Union. I also once assisted Don Maslin with an NEC 9801 disk with the Stand-Alone BASIC format instead of either CP/M nor MS-DOS. For those not familiar, it has a directory in the middle of the disk. The directory consists of two parts, a linked list of clusters and a table of directory entries. Each directory had filename (some were 6.2 instead of 8.3), file size, and starting cluster number. Radio Shack Coco is one such, and the MS-DOS directory was inspired by it. Supposedly, Tim Paterson's company (Seattle Computer Products) shared a booth with Microsoft at NCC or the West Coast Computer Faire, and he liked the ideas behind the Stand-Alone BASIC directory structure. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 21:08:05 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:08:05 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> <56E8B29D.9010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 6:57 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > >>> In addition to the CP/M, the Oki if800 also existed with a version of > Microsoft Stand-Alone BASIC; similar, but not a match for the NEC 8001. > Don't know how wide spread that was, the disks that I worked on were some > that Lee Felsenstein brought back from Soviet Union. > I also once assisted Don Maslin with an NEC 9801 disk with the Stand-Alone > BASIC format instead of either CP/M nor MS-DOS. > For those not familiar, it has a directory in the middle of the disk. The > directory consists of two parts, a linked list of clusters and a table of > directory entries. Each directory had filename (some were 6.2 instead of > 8.3), file size, and starting cluster number. Radio Shack Coco is one > such, and the MS-DOS directory was inspired by it. Supposedly, Tim > Paterson's company (Seattle Computer Products) shared a booth with > Microsoft at NCC or the West Coast Computer Faire, and he liked the ideas > behind the Stand-Alone BASIC directory structure. > > > I have a vague late-70's memory of RSX-11 putting the directory in the middle of the disk. -- Charles From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 15 21:14:47 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 19:14:47 -0700 Subject: DEC H7104-D power supply tips? In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> On 3/14/16 10:46 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > tisdag 15 mars 2016 skrev Josh Dersch : > >> Hi all -- >> >> My call for a VAX-11/750 a month or so ago actually bore some fruit >> (locally, even!) and as of a couple of weeks ago, I now have a very nicely >> configured 11/750 system taking up most of the basement. The previous >> owner got it after it was retired from a local(ish) university in the mid >> 1990s and it has not been powered on since then. Apparently at the time of >> its retirement the power supplies were exhibiting "random issues." (No >> more detail is available than that on the history...) >> >> At any rate, I went through the two power supplies (and the small pilot >> supply in the power controller) and found a lot of leaky capacitors (as in, >> yellow/brown goo was coming out of maybe 2/3 of them) so I went ahead and >> recapped the whole thing. >> >> At the moment I have things running on a dummy load in the 11/750 >> chassis. (the harnesses are still hooked to the chassis backplane, but all >> cards have been pulled, and the backplanes thoroughly checked for bent >> pins, etc.) The H7104-C (2.5V) supply seems to be working fine but the main >> 5V supply in the H7104-D is not doing so well (and as a result the other >> voltages it's supposed to be producing are also not present). The Power >> Controller lights up the "Reg. Fail" lamp (I don't know why the 5V Fail >> lamp isn't also on) and the 5V supply emits a loud (somewhere around >> 400Hz?) whine/squeal. I get about .3V out of it with a load. Without a >> load there's no squeal and I get about 5.6V, but that's not particularly >> useful. >> >> I've double-checked everything in the H7104-D and there's nothing >> obviously wrong (no caps installed backwards, no scorched components). At >> the moment the H7104-D is hooked up only to a dummy load, so it's not >> anything on the backplane shorting out or causing issues. >> >> This is another one of those cases where I've gotten myself in over my >> head with large, complicated power supplies -- anyone have any experience >> with these? Any tips? > > You can read the story of my 11/750 power supply repairs in this article: > http://www.datormuseum.se/computers/digital-equipment-corporation/vax-11-750 > > Loud squealing noise was in my case due to short-ciricuit output rectifiers > for the 5V. Check them. Then also chech the main chopper transistors. > > /Mattis Thanks to you (and others) for tips. I used the desoldering station at work today to remove the transistors for testing (the "motherboard" PCB in the 7104 is very thick and I was having no luck getting all the solder out of the vias with my tools at home). I found one bad 2N6547 in the lot (everything shorted to everything else) so I'll be replacing that tomorrow after a stop at Vetco on the way to work to pick up a replacement. All of the diodes that I checked looked OK. Fingers crossed that the transistor is the only issue here. Thanks again, Josh > > >> Thanks as always, >> Josh >> >> From tosteve at yahoo.com Tue Mar 15 22:21:18 2016 From: tosteve at yahoo.com (steven stengel) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 03:21:18 +0000 (UTC) Subject: Fw: Trashed PDP-11/70 system for sell in Pittsburgh In-Reply-To: <56E8A5F3.9060700@nb.net> References: <56E8A5F3.9060700@nb.net> Message-ID: <1508179501.614751.1458098478522.JavaMail.yahoo@mail.yahoo.com> See below::: > >> On Feb 23, 2016, at 5:24 PM, Christopher Eddy wrote: >> >> I have an 11/70 that I want to find a new home for.. >> 11/70 CPU chassis, with CPU rack and cards in place. The CPU control panel is damaged.. all of the toggle caps and switches have been smashed. No paper or tape drives. >> 11/70 memory chassis, with rack and cards in place. >> Also, I have a separate 11/70 rack, with no cards, but with a control panel attached. Many WW pins are bent. The caps and switches are again very damaged. >> I have not powered it, and don't think that I should. I am partway through a couple of projects to restore it, mainly a project to replace the power supplies with PC style supplies, and another project to replace the switch panel with a touch panel + USB that would allow the unit to operate without the switches. I did not complete either project. >> As it is an incomplete system, or at least the CPU/memory is there, but not complete enough to operate, I was planning to augment it with these projects in order to operate it as is. >> The ribbon cables that join CPU to memory were just cut in two. >> Someone was very rough with it. >> I would like to sell it to someone that wants to proceed with the restoration of it.. but have no idea where to begin. >> I am in Pittsburgh. >> Thanks! >> Chris~ >> 412-369-9920 >> 412-916-7664 >> From cclist at sydex.com Tue Mar 15 22:34:19 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Tue, 15 Mar 2016 20:34:19 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> <56E8B29D.9010305@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56E8D43B.6030905@sydex.com> On 03/15/2016 07:08 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > I have a vague late-70's memory of RSX-11 putting the directory in > the middle of the disk. Not unknown in the CP/M world. For example, the NSC BLC 86/20 puts the CP/M directory on cylinder 39 of a 3.5" floppy. CP/M had all sorts of strange and original ways to map out a disk. The "list of clusters" wasn't new even in the 1960s. Take CDC SCOPE for example, using an RBT (list of clusters--Record Block Table), read into memory when a file was opened. ISIS II had a similar scheme of lists of blocks belonging to a file. Practically speaking, it was a lousy way to organize a floppy disk. Better to create contiguous extents for a file with an option for a number of additions, which keeps data belonging to a file together. Anyone who's tried to recover a MS-DOS floppy used as a work (lots of read/write/open/close activity) volume where both the root directory and FAT have been wiped out knows how hard that can get be. The stinker is that on a floppy, those were usually located on cylinder 0, where, incidentally, the FORMAT command also started writing... --Chuck From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 15 23:54:06 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 04:54:06 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> , <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: I've been scanning the web in search of any code listings for these processors. Intel once had a library for some of these but it seems most is lost. I've found reconstructed listing for the Intellec4/40. I've seen just about all that existed in Intel's manuals. I even found an interesting listing that was to be used by the navy for plotting two ships courses ( interesting ) for intercept. Still, in general I'm coming up blank. Does anyone have a stash of paper tapes or listings? Dwight From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Wed Mar 16 03:12:44 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:12:44 +0100 (CET) Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 15 Mar 2016, Paul Koning wrote: > From the various comments, it sounds like NiMH is a useable substitute. > On the other hand, NiCd batteries are still readily available. Yes, but NiCd cells really don't like being charged only and never discharged. And they tend to crystallise quite badly with age and "misuse"; best examples are 3.6V NiCd battery packs as CMOS battery on many mainboards. Christian From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 16 07:55:10 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 08:55:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160316125510.3B6A518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse > Well, what was the largest virtual memory space available on various > machines? I have thought, on occasion, about simulating a segmented machine on a non-segmented machine, i.e. one with large unidirectional addresses (segmented being a bi-directionally addressed machine) - in fact, I think it was in the context of the VAX that I went through this mentally. I don't recall any more the exact outcome of my mental design processes (it was a _long_ time ago), but I have this vague recollection that it could sort of work, but that it would be ugly (as in, the compiler would have to simulate cross-segment pointers, etc - they don't look just like normal pointers as there has to be provision for binding them when first used, etc). > Now that 64-bit address space is becoming common Large unidirectional machines do have one advantage, which is that the canonical flaw of single-level-storage on a segmented machine is that really large objects don't fit in a single segment, unless you have ridiculously large addresses (e.g. 80 bit). When simulating segments on a unidirectional machine, one can of course make any individual segment as large as one likes - up to the total size of the unidirctional machine's address space. Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 16 08:01:48 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:01:48 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160316125510.3B6A518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160316125510.3B6A518C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201603161301.JAA29821@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > I have thought, on occasion, about simulating a segmented machine on > a non-segmented machine, i.e. one with large unidirectional addresses > (segmented being a bi-directionally addressed machine) - [...] Hm, "unidirectional" and "bidirectional" are terms I'm having trouble figuring out the meaning of here. You seem to be using them as, effectively, synonyms for "non-segmented" and "segmented", but I don't see any way in which directionality makes any sense for either, so I can only infer I'm missing something. Is it anything you can explain? /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 16 08:19:25 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:19:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > I desperately want to port Multics to a modern architecture Funny you should mention this! Dave Bridgham and my 'other' project (other than the QSIC) is something called iMucs, which is a Multics-like OS for Intel x86 machines. The reason for the x86 machines is that i) they have decent segmentation support (well, not the very latest model, which dropped it since nobody was using it), and ii) they are common and cheap. The concept is to pretty much redo Multics, in C, on the x86. The x86's segmentation support is adequate, not great. The Multics hardware had all those indirect addressing modes that the compiler will have to simulate, but the machines are now so freakin' fast (see simulated PDP-11's running at 100 times the speed of the fastest real ones - on antique PC's), that shouldn't be a huge problem. We did identify some minor lossage (e.g. I think the maximum real memory you can support is only a couple of GB), but other than that, it's a pretty good match. The x86 even has rings, and the description sounds like it came out of the Multics hardware manual! Although I have to say, I'm not sure rings sare what I would pick for a protection model - I think something like protection domains, with SUID, are better. (So that e.g. a cross-process callable subsystem with 'private' data could have that data marked R/W only to that user ID. In 'pure' Multics, one can move the subsystem/data into a lower ring to give it _some_ protection - but it still has to be marked R/W 'world', albeit only in that lower ring, for other processes to be able to call the subsystem.) It will need specialized compiler support for cross-segment routine calls, pointers, etc, but I have a mostly-written C compiler that I did (CNU CC is large pile, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole) that I can re-purpose. And we'll start with XV6 to get a running start. There would be Standard I/O, and hopefully also something of a Unix emulation, so we could take advantage of a lot of existing software. Anyway, we've been focused on the QSIC (and for me, getting my 11's running), but we hope to start on iMucs in the late spring, when Dave heads off to Alaska, and QSIC work goes into a hiatus. Getting the compiler finished is step 1. > but there is a profound road-block: the way that Multics does virtual > memory is very, very different, and just does not map onto current > virtual memory architecture. You refer here, I assume, to the segmentation stuff? > then you need to extend the instruction set to support the clever > indirect address exceptions that allow directed faults and linkage > offset tables I think the x86 has more or less what one needs (although, as I say, some of the more arcane indirect modes would have to be simulated). Although my memory of the details of the x86 is a bit old, and I've only ever studied the details of how Multics did inter-segment stuff (in Organick, which doesn't quite correspond to Multics as later actually implemented). > Then there is subtle issue in the way the Multics does the stack .. > This means that stack addresses, heap address and data addresses are > all in separate address spaces Well, Multics had (IIRC) 4 segment registers, one for the code, one for the stack, one for the linkage segment, and I don't remember what the 4th one was used for. (I don't think Multics had 'heap' and 'data' segments as somone might read those terms; a Multics process would have had, in its address space, many segments to which it had R/W access and in which it kept data.) But the x86 has that many, and more, so it should be workable, and reasonably efficient. > I think it is possible to move them all into the same space You wouldn't want to put them all in the same segment - that's the whole point of the single-level-store architecture! :-) Or perhaps I'm misunderstanding your point, here? > Also, Multics stacks grow upward -- great for protection against buffer > overrun attacks, but a pain in a modern architecture. Sorry, I don't follow that? Why does the stack growth direction make a difference? It's just a convention, isn't it, which direction is 'push' and which is 'pop'? Noel From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 16 08:55:53 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 09:55:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <201603161355.JAA10057@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> Also, Multics stacks grow upward -- great for protection against >> buffer overrun attacks, but a pain in a modern architecture. > Sorry, I don't follow that? Why does the stack growth direction make > a difference? It's just a convention, isn't it, which direction is > 'push' and which is 'pop'? Well, some architectures have autodecrement move-to-memory and autoincrement move-from-memory, but not autoincrement move-to-memory or autodecrement move-from-memory. The Super-H is an example; I don't know whether x86 is another. As for buffer overruns, the point there is that a buffer overrun clobbers memory addressed higher than the buffer. If the stack grows down, this can overwrite stack frames and/or callers' locals. If the stack grows up, all it can overwrite is locals for the current frame and unused stack space. Actually, it might be interesting to do a VAX OS that used P1 for program text and data and P0 for an upwards-growing stack. (It'd mean not using the VAX stack instructions, since they have a downward-growing mindset wired into them, but the VAX _does_ allow mixing either kind of auto-modify with either direction of data move, so that would be a minor annoyance at worst.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 16 09:17:02 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:17:02 -0400 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <201603161355.JAA10057@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603161355.JAA10057@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56E96ADE.2000604@froghouse.org> On 03/16/2016 09:55 AM, Mouse wrote: > As for buffer overruns, the point there is that a buffer overrun > clobbers memory addressed higher than the buffer. If the stack grows > down, this can overwrite stack frames and/or callers' locals. If the > stack grows up, all it can overwrite is locals for the current frame > and unused stack space. If the stack is in its own segment, you get to use the segment protection hardware to catch overruns. From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 16 09:29:25 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:29:25 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <56E96ADE.2000604@froghouse.org> References: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603161355.JAA10057@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E96ADE.2000604@froghouse.org> Message-ID: <201603161429.KAA14225@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> As for buffer overruns, the point there is that a buffer overrun >> clobbers memory addressed higher than the buffer. If the stack >> grows down, this can overwrite stack frames and/or callers' locals. >> If the stack grows up, all it can overwrite is locals for the >> current frame and unused stack space. > If the stack is in its own segment, you get to use the segment > protection hardware to catch overruns. That doesn't help when (a) the stack grows downward, (b) all stack frames are in the same segment, and (c) function-local arrays are on the stack. Running off the end of the buffer still trashes the memory following, which includes stack frames and calling routines' locals. All the segment protection does is prevent you from running off the stack into non-stack memory, which is not how typical buffer overruns work. To stop that, you'd have to either (a) put each stack frame in its own segment (which means a _lot_ of segments, potentially) or (b) adjust the segment limits with each call/return (possible, but makes it difficult to work with pointers to variables in the stack frames of calling routines); (b) also requires keeping the stack frame outside the segment or below the locals. It would help to have two stacks, one for locals and one for stack frames, but buffer overruns could still scribble on calling routines' locals with a downward-growing stack. Not as bad as scribbling on the stack frame, certainly, but still not good. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From dab at froghouse.org Wed Mar 16 09:34:25 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:34:25 -0400 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <201603161429.KAA14225@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <201603161355.JAA10057@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <56E96ADE.2000604@froghouse.org> <201603161429.KAA14225@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <56E96EF1.9010200@froghouse.org> On 03/16/2016 10:29 AM, Mouse wrote: > That doesn't help [...] You're right. I was thinking of stack overruns, not general buffer overruns. Just need to stop programming in C for that last one. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 12:18:09 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 10:18:09 -0700 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160316131925.AABCC18C0BC@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 16, 2016 at 6:19 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > I desperately want to port Multics to a modern architecture > > Funny you should mention this! Dave Bridgham and my 'other' project (other > than the QSIC) is something called iMucs, which is a Multics-like OS for > Intel x86 machines. > > The reason for the x86 machines is that i) they have decent segmentation > support (well, not the very latest model, which dropped it since nobody was > using it), and ii) they are common and cheap. > > The concept is to pretty much redo Multics, in C, on the x86. The x86's > segmentation support is adequate, not great. The Multics hardware had all > those indirect addressing modes that the compiler will have to simulate, > but > the machines are now so freakin' fast (see simulated PDP-11's running at > 100 > times the speed of the fastest real ones - on antique PC's), that shouldn't > be a huge problem. We did identify some minor lossage (e.g. I think the > maximum real memory you can support is only a couple of GB), but other than > that, it's a pretty good match. > > The x86 even has rings, and the description sounds like it came out of the > Multics hardware manual! Although I have to say, I'm not sure rings sare > what > I would pick for a protection model - I think something like protection > domains, with SUID, are better. > > (So that e.g. a cross-process callable subsystem with 'private' data could > have that data marked R/W only to that user ID. In 'pure' Multics, one can > move the subsystem/data into a lower ring to give it _some_ protection - > but > it still has to be marked R/W 'world', albeit only in that lower ring, for > other processes to be able to call the subsystem.) > > It will need specialized compiler support for cross-segment routine calls, > pointers, etc, but I have a mostly-written C compiler that I did (CNU CC is > large pile, I wouldn't touch it with a barge-pole) that I can re-purpose. > And > we'll start with XV6 to get a running start. > > There would be Standard I/O, and hopefully also something of a Unix > emulation, > so we could take advantage of a lot of existing software. > > Anyway, we've been focused on the QSIC (and for me, getting my 11's > running), > but we hope to start on iMucs in the late spring, when Dave heads off to > Alaska, and QSIC work goes into a hiatus. Getting the compiler finished is > step 1. > > > > but there is a profound road-block: the way that Multics does virtual > > memory is very, very different, and just does not map onto current > > virtual memory architecture. > > You refer here, I assume, to the segmentation stuff? > > Slightly at cross purposes here; I was speaking of porting Multics; you are speaking of writing a Multics like OS. I was opining that I don't think that porting would work due to Multics reliance on very specific VM features. I do think that it is entirely possible to write an Multics like OS on modern hardware. > > then you need to extend the instruction set to support the clever > > indirect address exceptions that allow directed faults and linkage > > offset tables > > I think the x86 has more or less what one needs (although, as I say, some > of > the more arcane indirect modes would have to be simulated). Although my > memory of the details of the x86 is a bit old, and I've only ever studied > the > details of how Multics did inter-segment stuff (in Organick, which doesn't > quite correspond to Multics as later actually implemented). > > Organick can be confusing; Multics has some abstractions of the H/W, and the book isn't always clear about the distinction between the abstractions and the underlying hardware; also Multics continued to evolve after it was written. > > Then there is subtle issue in the way the Multics does the stack .. > > This means that stack addresses, heap address and data addresses are > > all in separate address spaces > > Well, Multics had (IIRC) 4 segment registers, one for the code, one for the > stack, one for the linkage segment, and I don't remember what the 4th one > was > used for. (I don't think Multics had 'heap' and 'data' segments as somone > might read those terms; a Multics process would have had, in its address > space, many segments to which it had R/W access and in which it kept data.) > 8 pointer registers, which contained segment numbers and word and bit offsets into the segment. PL1 calling conventions reseverved certain regsiters for frame pointer, etc. 8 index registers which contained an offset into a segment. The executable, stack, heap, and static data would all be in seperate segments. > But the x86 has that many, and more, so it should be workable, and > reasonably > efficient. > > > I think it is possible to move them all into the same space > > You wouldn't want to put them all in the same segment - that's the whole > point of the single-level-store architecture! :-) Or perhaps I'm > misunderstanding your point, here? > > It's been a long time since I look at the x86 segment model, but my recollection is that segments were mapped into the address space of the process; that is not how the Multics memory model worked. Each segment is in it's own address space; any memory reference was, per force, a segment number and offset. Again, cross purposes here. I am unconvinced that Multics could be ported to that architecture; an interesting Multics like operating system should be possible, with the caveat that some things are going to have be done differently due to incompatibilities in the memory model. > > Also, Multics stacks grow upward -- great for protection against > buffer > > overrun attacks, but a pain in a modern architecture. > > Sorry, I don't follow that? Why does the stack growth direction make a > difference? It's just a convention, isn't it, which direction is 'push' > and which is 'pop'? > > The classic buffer overrun attack overruns a buffer in the stack; since a downward growing stack puts the stack allocated data below the return address saved on the stack, it is possible for the overrun to change the return address to the address of the executable code you just put in the buffer; when the attacked routine returns, it starts executing your code for you. I'm not claiming that upwards growing stacks are better, just that they are more resistant to one particular attack vector. -- Charles From jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch Wed Mar 16 12:24:28 2016 From: jos.dreesen at bluewin.ch (Jos Dreesen) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:24:28 +0100 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: References: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> Message-ID: <56E996CC.8050004@bluewin.ch> On 16.03.2016 09:12, Christian Corti wrote: > On Tue, 15 Mar 2016, Paul Koning wrote: >> From the various comments, it sounds like NiMH is a useable substitute. On the other hand, NiCd batteries are still readily available. > > Yes, but NiCd cells really don't like being charged only and never discharged. And they tend to crystallise quite badly with age and "misuse"; best examples are 3.6V NiCd battery packs as CMOS battery on many mainboards. > > Christian > Additionally the NiCd never keep charge, if , like me, the drives are only fired up once a year... I am thinking of just adding some wiring to an external battery. Jos From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 16 12:32:04 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 13:32:04 -0400 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <56E996CC.8050004@bluewin.ch> References: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> <56E996CC.8050004@bluewin.ch> Message-ID: <86B6B226-4A82-4AB6-ABEF-DCF53673CB8E@comcast.net> > On Mar 16, 2016, at 1:24 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > ... > Additionally the NiCd never keep charge, if , like me, the drives are only fired up once a year... > > I am thinking of just adding some wiring to an external battery. I wonder if it might make sense to replace it by a capacitor. For this kind of application, the total capacity is not an issue at all, but only the available current for a fraction of a second. By that measure, it doesn't take all that large a capacitor to do as well as a battery; the difference is that the battery can sustain that current far longer -- which doesn't matter here. paul From dkelvey at hotmail.com Wed Mar 16 13:38:21 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:38:21 +0000 Subject: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries In-Reply-To: <86B6B226-4A82-4AB6-ABEF-DCF53673CB8E@comcast.net> References: <000c01d17ef6$8475eaf0$8d61c0d0$@co.uk> <56E996CC.8050004@bluewin.ch>, <86B6B226-4A82-4AB6-ABEF-DCF53673CB8E@comcast.net> Message-ID: I'd think a stack of supper capacitors would do it. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Koning Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2016 10:32 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: DEC RK05 Emergency Retract Batteries > On Mar 16, 2016, at 1:24 PM, Jos Dreesen wrote: > ... > Additionally the NiCd never keep charge, if , like me, the drives are only fired up once a year... > > I am thinking of just adding some wiring to an external battery. I wonder if it might make sense to replace it by a capacitor. For this kind of application, the total capacity is not an issue at all, but only the available current for a fraction of a second. By that measure, it doesn't take all that large a capacitor to do as well as a battery; the difference is that the battery can sustain that current far longer -- which doesn't matter here. paul From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 17:37:11 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 17:37:11 -0500 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > 22Disk has the definition, which is the same as the BMC IF800 (it was > marketed under both brandings). I have samples in my files. Do you think you may have the same disk I'm imaging? It would be nice to have it in another format for comparison purposes. The front label is here: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/_DiskSleeves/OKI_001a.jpg From cclist at sydex.com Wed Mar 16 20:47:45 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 18:47:45 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56EA0CC1.5090503@sydex.com> On 03/16/2016 03:37 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 7:01 PM, Chuck Guzis > wrote: >> 22Disk has the definition, which is the same as the BMC IF800 (it >> was marketed under both brandings). I have samples in my files. > > Do you think you may have the same disk I'm imaging? It would be > nice to have it in another format for comparison purposes. The front > label is here: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/content/computing/_DiskSleeves/OKI_001a.jpg I rarely keep originals, but copy them and return them to the original owner. If you're interested, I can dig a disk or two out and list the contents. --Chuck From silent700 at gmail.com Wed Mar 16 21:07:09 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 21:07:09 -0500 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: <56EA0CC1.5090503@sydex.com> References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> <56EA0CC1.5090503@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mar 16, 2016 20:47, "Chuck Guzis" > I rarely keep originals, but copy them and return them to the original owner. If you're interested, I can dig a disk or two out and list the contents. Sure, or a 22disk image, if you think you have the same disk I do. Just something to check against to see if I'm "doing it right." J From isking at uw.edu Wed Mar 16 22:52:44 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 20:52:44 -0700 Subject: where I've landed In-Reply-To: References: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sorry, Sergio, can't quite swing that. :-) On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 12:41 AM, SPC wrote: > No doubt, dude. Can anyone go to take a lunch? > Sergio. > > 2016-03-14 6:43 GMT+01:00 CuriousMarc : > > > Awesome! > > Marc > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian S. > > King > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: OT: where I've landed > > > > Hi all, > > > > I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems > > appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the > news > > this week: > > > > > > > http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ > > > > The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun > > literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian > > > > PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by > now. > > :-) > > -- > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School < > > http://ischool.uw.edu> > > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > > Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > University of Washington > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 17 00:43:30 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2016 22:43:30 -0700 Subject: OKI if800 CP/M In-Reply-To: References: <56E8A264.2050203@sydex.com> <56EA0CC1.5090503@sydex.com> Message-ID: <56EA4402.9050702@sydex.com> On 03/16/2016 07:07 PM, Jason T wrote: > On Mar 16, 2016 20:47, "Chuck Guzis" > >> I rarely keep originals, but copy them and return them to the >> original > owner. If you're interested, I can dig a disk or two out and list > the contents. > > Sure, or a 22disk image, if you think you have the same disk I do. > Just something to check against to see if I'm "doing it right." I'll try to get to it this weekend. --Chuck From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 01:43:35 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 00:43:35 -0600 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 15, 2016 at 10:54 PM, dwight wrote: > I've been scanning the web in search of any code listings for these processors. [...] > Does anyone have a stash of paper tapes or listings? Unfortunately I do not, but I've recently become interested in such things, as I have received from a friend's estate an old board from an embedded system (possibly a cash register) which has a 4040 CPU. Photos here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157665878868081/ The board also has the 4008/4009 memory interface, sockets for 16 1702s (I assume, though they are all empty), a bunch of TTL, a bunch of hand-kludged stuff, and two 44-pin .156 pitch edge connectors (on the same edge of the board). It has all of *zero* 4002 RAM chips. Maybe there were 4002 chips on another board. The only marking on the board, on both sides, is "MCS 4/4 N". There are four strange-looking hybrids. Three of the hybrids have 22 pins with 600 mil row pitch, and are labeled (with stylized prefix "IC"): IC6298 751 IC6270 752 IC5220 5002A The fourth hybrid is a six-pin device with 300 mil row pitch, but longer than a 16-pin DIP, and is labelled: IC6302 754 I suspect that the 751, 752, and 754 may be date codes, though the 5002A seems out of place. My guess is that the primary purpose of the hybrids was to make it difficult for competitors to clone the board. For want of information on the board, I'll probably just remove the 4040, 4008, and 4009, and build my own system with them. Would I be correct in thinking that the 4008/4009 (or the later 4289 that replaces them) only serves to interface to program memory, but does not provide means to add RAM in the data address space? (I know that you can put RAM in the program space and write to it with the WPM instruction, but that's nowhere near as convenient to access for data.) From mark at wickensonline.co.uk Thu Mar 17 04:26:07 2016 From: mark at wickensonline.co.uk (Mark Wickens) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:26:07 +0000 Subject: where I've landed In-Reply-To: References: <016e01d17db4$6bfaf850$43f0e8f0$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Looks great Ian - a lot more interesting than my attic! Although I do have the Lake District to play in when I leave work. Congratulations. All the best Mark On 17 Mar 2016 03:52, "Ian S. King" wrote: > Sorry, Sergio, can't quite swing that. :-) > > On Mon, Mar 14, 2016 at 12:41 AM, SPC wrote: > > > No doubt, dude. Can anyone go to take a lunch? > > Sergio. > > > > 2016-03-14 6:43 GMT+01:00 CuriousMarc : > > > > > Awesome! > > > Marc > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ian > S. > > > King > > > Sent: Thursday, March 10, 2016 6:08 PM > > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > Subject: OT: where I've landed > > > > > > Hi all, > > > > > > I informed the list when I left the Living Computer Museum, so it seems > > > appropriate to tell you where I've landed. My new employer was in the > > news > > > this week: > > > > > > > > > > > > http://arstechnica.com/science/2016/03/behind-the-curtain-ars-goes-inside-blue-origins-secretive-rocket-factory/ > > > > > > The second photo is the view from where I ate lunch yesterday. The fun > > > literally never stops.... living the dream! -- Ian > > > > > > PS: of course I'm finishing my doctorate - I'm kind of vested in it by > > now. > > > :-) > > > -- > > > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School < > > > http://ischool.uw.edu> > > > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a > > > Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens > > > > > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > > > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > > > > > University of Washington > > > > > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Thu Mar 17 06:34:53 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 12:34:53 +0100 (CET) Subject: NetBSD TK70 question Message-ID: I'm not sure where I should start asking, so I'm starting here ;-) I have a problem reading TK70 (and probably TK50) tapes in NetBSD 3.0 on a MicroVAX II. There is absolutely no way of reading a single tape block with a simple read(). All I get is mt0: unknown opcode 0x80 status 0xc01 ignored on the console, and then the driver hangs. The output is generated in /usr/src/sys/dev/mscp/mscp.c It is my impression that the code has *never* been tested on real hardware after all that years. BTW the TK70 is working fine otherwise (e.g. I can boot the MVII diagnostic tape). Now for something strange: the same procedure works in SimH (with the same system installation and kernel). So apparently SimH has a "bug", too. It doesn't behave like the real device. Background of the story: I want to image TK70 tapes as TAP files. Has anyone ever encountered the same behaviour? Christian From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 06:45:18 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 12:45:18 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? Message-ID: I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console emulator and some different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the M9301 in the slot where the M930 normally goes? Slot 4 AB. >From looking in the schematics I get that: 1. The bus grant pull ups on the M9301 is through jumpers. According to the note they should only be installed on 11/70 systems. But the M930 do pull these up (no jumpers here) so my guess is that these jumpers should be installed. 2. The M930 connects much more signals to a common ground. Except for the normal ones the M9301 uses for ground (AC2, BC2, AT1 and BT1) it also has connected AB2, BB2, AN1, AP1, AR1, AS1, AV2, BD1, BE1, BV2 to ground. Reading the pin assignments on a MUD slot I think that putting a M930 into it could potentially create a lot of smoke. BV2 is -5V and AV2 is +20V if the appropriate regulator is in the system. M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930 normally sits? My thinking is that it should work. What is your experience? /Mattis From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 07:01:59 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:01:59 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 7:45 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console emulator and some > different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the M9301 in the > slot where the M930 normally goes? Slot 4 AB. > > From looking in the schematics I get that: > > 1. The bus grant pull ups on the M9301 is through jumpers. According to the > note they should only be installed on 11/70 systems. But the M930 do pull > these up (no jumpers here) so my guess is that these jumpers should be > installed. > > 2. The M930 connects much more signals to a common ground. Except for the > normal ones the M9301 uses for ground (AC2, BC2, AT1 and BT1) it also has > connected AB2, BB2, AN1, AP1, AR1, AS1, AV2, BD1, BE1, BV2 to ground. > > Reading the pin assignments on a MUD slot I think that putting a M930 into > it could potentially create a lot of smoke. BV2 is -5V and AV2 is +20V if > the appropriate regulator is in the system. > > M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930 > normally sits? > > My thinking is that it should work. What is your experience? > > /Mattis > I am not 1/2 as knowledgeable as others here, but what comes to mind is "backplane change", I think you'd leave the M930 where it is and on the 2nd backplane segment install the M9301. If you don't have a 2nd plane I'd say you may not be able to use this. Just my GUESS, but I am interested to learn the correct answer. b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 17 07:49:11 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:49:11 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? Message-ID: <20160317124911.3123C18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mattis Lind > I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console emulator and > some different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the M9301 > in the slot where the M930 normally goes? > ... > M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930 > normally sits? I haven't personally looked into doing this in detail, so I can't give a definitive answer, but your last question here makes alarm bells go off in my head. The M930 is designed to go in UNIBUS In/Out slots. These slots do have different wiring from the A/B MUD slots. (For instance, UNIBUS In/Out slots have _single_ pins assigned for BG4-7 and NPG, providing 'grant in' or 'grant out' functionality, depending on if it's an In or Out slot. I don't recall offhand what function/signal is on those pins in a MUD slot, but I'm pretty sure it's not a grant!) I would be fairly astonished if a device intended for a MUD slot would work in a UNIBUS In/Out slot, and vice versa. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 17 07:53:07 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:53:07 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160317125307.5F03018C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse >> simulating a segmented machine on a non-segmented machine, i.e. one >> with large unidirectional addresses (segmented being a >> bi-directionally addressed machine) - [...] > Hm, "unidirectional" and "bidirectional" are terms I'm having trouble > figuring out the meaning of here. You seem to be using them as, > effectively, synonyms for "non-segmented" and "segmented" Yes. > but I don't see any way in which directionality makes any sense for > either, so I can only infer I'm missing something. Imagine a graphic model of the memory in non-segmented, and segmented, machines. The former can be modeled as a linear array of memory cells - hence 'uni-directional'. The latter can be modelled by a two-dimensional array - segment number along one axis, word/byte within segment on the other - hence 'bi-directional'. Maybe 'uni-axis' or 'bi-axis' would have been a bit more techically correct, but 'uni-directional' and 'bi-directional' were the first terms that came to mind - and I didn't think of how they could be confusing (in terms of their common meanings, when used for flows). Sorry! Noel PS: I'm trying to remember all my thoughts about simulating a segmented memory with a large flat address space. One was that one can prevent pointer incrementing from 'walking' from one segment into another by leaving a 'guard band' of a few empty pages between each 'segment'. However, this points out an issue with such simulation: one cannot easily grow a 'segment' once another 'segment' has been assigned space above it. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 08:01:18 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:01:18 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > > I am not 1/2 as knowledgeable as others here, but what comes to mind is > "backplane change", You mean that I have to do modifications to the backplane. No, that is not what I want... > I think you'd leave the M930 where it is and on the 2nd > backplane segment install the M9301. If you don't have a 2nd plane I'd say > you may not be able to use this. Just my GUESS, but I am interested to > learn the correct answer. > The PDP-11/05S I got had a M9301 in it when it arrived and it was installed in a M930 slot (slot 3 AB). So that might be an indication that it could work. But that is a different backplane. If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if you jumper W1 - W5. > b > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 17 08:03:27 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160317130327.1F49218C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Mouse > As for buffer overruns, the point there is that a buffer overrun > clobbers memory addressed higher than the buffer. If the stack grows > down, this can overwrite stack frames and/or callers' locals. Oh, right. Duhhhh! Buffers typically grow upward, no matter which direction the stack grows. So the two directions for stack growth aren't purely a convention. Of course, in Multics, especially with AIM (Access Isolation Mechanism), stack buffer attacks are much less dangerous. E.g. even without AIM, the attacker can't load code into the stack, and return to it - generally the stack segment had execute permission turned off. And AIM really limits what 'bad' code can get up to. I keep ranting about it's pointless to expect programmers to write code without security flaws, it needs to be built in to the low levels of the system (one of Multics' many lessons - it wasn't _really_ secure until the 6180 moved the ring stuff into hardware, instead of simulating it in software, as on the 645). And so as long as we continue to allow Web pages to contain 'active' content (i.e. code), so that random code from all over the planet gets loaded into our computers and run, browsers will neve be secure; they need to be run in an AIM box. Noel From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 09:24:22 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:24:22 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > > > If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 > or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short > circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot > be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD > slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if > you jumper W1 - W5. > > Once I tried putting a M9312 into the backplane of my 11/05 NC. The M9312 did not boot to the console monitor, but there should be a way to do it, I just did not find it. I have an expanded backplane. If you look at the M9312 or M9301 you can surmise that these are not going to do anything like what the M930 does M930: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-05/EM_8Kx16_Planar_Memory_companion_card.jpg The M9301 is a ROM card, just like the M9312, one is an older model and they're compatible roughly I believe. I recall from the manual that one could use the M9301 in an 11/05, but was not able pursue if it works yet for my set up. I will eventually check this, but if there is a test you'd like me to try send and I will fire up the system. I have the manual, I'd want to read up on it first to be sure I am installing correctly. Not sure what ROM is installed on the card I have. b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From kylevowen at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:04:05 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:04:05 -0500 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > Unfortunately I do not, but I've recently become interested in such > things, as I have received from a friend's estate an old board from an > embedded system (possibly a cash register) which has a 4040 CPU. > Photos here: > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157665878868081/ Wow, an engineering sample 4040. Very nice. Highly sought after by those CPU collectors out there. You should be abel to build a nice system from that. No telling what those hybrid packs did. Can't say I've come across many 4004/4040 designs with such devices. Kyle From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:24:04 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:24:04 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: 2016-03-17 15:24 GMT+01:00 william degnan : > > > > > > > > If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 > > or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short > > circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) > cannot > > be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into > MUD > > slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially > if > > you jumper W1 - W5. > > > > > > Once I tried putting a M9312 into the backplane of my 11/05 NC. The M9312 > did not boot to the console monitor, but there should be a way to do it, I > just did not find it. I have an expanded backplane. If you look at the > M9312 or M9301 you can surmise that these are not going to do anything like > what the M930 does > In what slot did you put the M9312 in your 11/05 NC? In a MUD slot in the Unibus expansion bus? Did you remove any of the other M930 boards then? The M9312 and M9301 are nearly identical except for the way how the ROM addressing takes place. I would say that M9312 and M9301 has all functions of the M930 plus some additional functions. They are bus terminators all of them. But M9301 and M9312 has built in ROM and bootstrap logic whereas the M930 has not. The M9302 on the other hand is a terminator plus the SACK logic. > > M930: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp11-05/EM_8Kx16_Planar_Memory_companion_card.jpg > > The M9301 is a ROM card, just like the M9312, one is an older model and > they're compatible roughly I believe. I recall from the manual that one > could use the M9301 in an 11/05, but was not able pursue if it works yet > for my set up. I will eventually check this, but if there is a test you'd > like me to try send and I will fire up the system. I have the manual, I'd > want to read up on it first to be sure I am installing correctly. Not sure > what ROM is installed on the card I have. > b > -- > @ BillDeg: > Web: vintagecomputer.net > Twitter: @billdeg > Youtube: @billdeg > Unauthorized Bio > /Mattis From cctalk at fahimi.net Thu Mar 17 10:24:28 2016 From: cctalk at fahimi.net (Ali) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 08:24:28 -0700 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> Message-ID: <000601d18061$19655770$4c300650$@net> James, Just wondering if you had any luck with the CL guy? Thanks. -Ali From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 10:57:03 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:57:03 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: <20160317124911.3123C18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160317124911.3123C18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-03-17 13:49 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Mattis Lind > > > I was thinking of using a M9301 board to get a console emulator and > > some different bootstraps with the 11/05. But can I just put the > M9301 > > in the slot where the M930 normally goes? > > ... > > M9301 goes into MUD slots. But can it go into the slot where a M930 > > normally sits? > > I haven't personally looked into doing this in detail, so I can't give a > definitive answer, but your last question here makes alarm bells go off in > my > head. > > The M930 is designed to go in UNIBUS In/Out slots. These slots do have > different wiring from the A/B MUD slots. (For instance, UNIBUS In/Out slots > have _single_ pins assigned for BG4-7 and NPG, providing 'grant in' or > 'grant > out' functionality, depending on if it's an In or Out slot. I don't recall > offhand what function/signal is on those pins in a MUD slot, but I'm pretty > sure it's not a grant!) > The BG signals are used for +20V, Parity Detect and "reserved" in a MUD slot. But these pins are provided through jumpers from the pullup resistors to the bus and to be installed in a MUD slot these jumpers need to be out. I am curios about the note saying that these jumpers need to be installed in a 11/70. Why? I tried to scan som 11/70 documents but did not find in what slot the M9301/M9312 should go. Maybe it sits in the last slot on the Unibus and that is why it need to have these jumpers installed? > I would be fairly astonished if a device intended for a MUD slot would work > in a UNIBUS In/Out slot, and vice versa. > >From the schematics I get that there is no real difference between M930 and M9301 unibus wise if the jumpers are out. And thinking of this a bit more these jumpers should be out unless I install it as the last terminator on the bus. It makes no real sense to terminate the BG signals close to the processor. The M930 is grounding some more pins. That's about it. I will go home and do some measurements on slot 4 AB to see how it is connected. /Mattis > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 17 10:59:19 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:59:19 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160317155919.D55CF18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > Slightly at cross purposes here; I was speaking of porting Multics; you > are speaking of writing a Multics like OS. I was opining that I don't > think that porting would work due to Multics reliance on very specific > VM features. Yes; my un-stated assumption was that the existing Multics code was so tied to the peculiar Multics hardware (how many instances of "fixed bin(18)" do you think there are in the Multics source :-) that it would be impossible to run on any modern hardware except via (as you have so wonderfully done) emulation. Hence the re-implementation route... >> I think the x86 has more or less what one needs Intesting note here: I was just reading Schell's oral history (a _fascintating_ document), and it turns out he was a consultant to Intel on the 286 (which architecture the later machines more or less copied exactly, extending it to 32 bits). So I'm no longer surprised that the x86 has more or less what one needs! :-) >> Well, Multics had (IIRC) 4 segment registers, one for the code, one >> for the stack, one for the linkage segment, and I don't remember >> what the 4th one was used for. I pulled down one of my many copies of Organick, and I had misremembered the details (and of course Organick describes the 645, not the 6180, which was subtly different). The code has its own set of registers; the PBR/IC (I was probably thinking of the x86's CS here). Of the four pointer-register pairs (which are effectively pointers to any segment, i.e. 'far' pointers, in a sense), two are indeed to the stack and linkage segments, and the others can be used for other things - one is typically a pointer to subroutine arguments. > 8 pointer registers .. > PL1 calling conventions reseverved certain regsiters for frame pointer, > etc. Yes, I got the 6180 processor manual, and a bunch of other things, and there had been significant changes since the 645 (which is the version I was somewhat familiar with, from Organick). Of the 8 pointer registers in the 6180, I was only able to find the usage of several: 0 - arguments 4 - linkage 6 - stack frame 7 - stack/linkage header I assume the others (most?/all?) were available for use by the compiler, as temporaries. One apparent big change in Multics since Organick was that the stack and linkage segments had been combined into one (not sure why, as I don't think having one less segment in the KST made much difference, and it didn't save any pointer registers); the header in the combined stack/linkage segment contained pointers to each in the combined segment. >> You wouldn't want to put them all in the same segment - that's the >> whole point of the single-level-store architecture! :-) Or perhaps I'm >> misunderstanding your point, here? > It's been a long time since I look at the x86 segment model, but my > recollection is that segments were mapped into the address space of the > process; that is not how the Multics memory model worked. Each segment > is in it's own address space; any memory reference was, per force, a > segment number and offset. In this last sentence, is that referring to Multics? If so, that is exactly how the x86 _hardware_ works, but most x86 OS's (in particular, all the Unix derivatives) don't really use segments, they just stick everything in a limited number of segments (one for code, one for all data - maybe one more for the stack, although perhaps they map those two to the same memory). > I am unconvinced that Multics could be ported to that architecture No disagreement there - "fixed bin (18)"! > an interesting Multics like operating system should be possible Exactly. > with he caveat that some things are going to have be done differently > due to incompatibilities in the memory model. I'm not so sure - I think you may be thinking that the x86 model is something other than what it is. It does indeed not have the infinite inter-segment pointer chaining possible on Multics hardware (where a pointer in memory points to another pointer which points to another pointer), but other than that, it does seem to have most of what is needed. In particular, it has local and global segment tables (indexed by segment number), and the ability to load pointer registers out of those tables, and the ability to have most (all?) instructions use particular pointer registers (including segment selection), e.g. if the linkage segment was pointed to by the ES register, there is an optional (per-instruction instance) modifier which causes most (all?) of the normal x86 instruction set to operate on that segment, instead of the primary data segment (pointed to by the DS register). Of course, until we get into the details, we can't say positively, but after reading the manuals, it seemed like it was doable. Noel From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 11:19:47 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 10:19:47 -0600 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Wow, an engineering sample 4040. Very nice. Highly sought after by those > CPU collectors out there. I noticed that it was an engineering sample, but hadn't really thought about that making it more valuable to collectors. Perhaps I should sell that chip and buy a production 4040 for my homebrew system. I'd also like to get a 4201 clock generator, 4289 memory interface (replaces 4008/4009 pair with one chip), 4265 GPIO, and 4269 keyboard/display interface. And some 4002 RAMs. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 11:27:42 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:27:42 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> > > If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 > or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short > circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) cannot > be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into MUD > slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially if > you jumper W1 - W5. > Hopefully this will clarify a few things: ?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a backplane. It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go these ?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312). SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus? backplane. Not all backplanes support SPC slots. MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually associated with the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots). MUD stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with Unibus slots as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus slots. You *will* ?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a MUD slot. TTFN - Guy From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 11:35:11 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:35:11 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-17 17:27 GMT+01:00 Guy Sotomayor : > > > On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > >>> > > > > If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 > > or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short > > circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) > cannot > > be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into > MUD > > slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially > if > > you jumper W1 - W5. > > > > Hopefully this will clarify a few things: > ?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a > backplane. > It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go > these > ?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312). > > SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus? > backplane. > Not all backplanes support SPC slots. > > MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually > associated with > the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots). > MUD > stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with > Unibus slots > as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus > slots. You *will* > ?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a > MUD > slot. > > Yes. That is pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a Unibus-slot? > TTFN - Guy > > > /Mattis From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 11:37:29 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 09:37:29 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > On Mar 17, 2016, at 9:35 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > 2016-03-17 17:27 GMT+01:00 Guy Sotomayor : > >> >>> On Mar 17, 2016, at 6:01 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >>> >>>>> >>> >>> If one read notes in the PDP-11/04 printset it says: Do not insert a M930 >>> or M9302 in a MUD slot. Only in the Unibus slots or you will have short >>> circuit. On the other hand it does not say that the M9301 (or M9312) >> cannot >>> be installed in a unibus slot. It recommends that those boards go into >> MUD >>> slots. But electrically I cannot see that it shouldn't work. Especially >> if >>> you jumper W1 - W5. >>> >> >> Hopefully this will clarify a few things: >> ?Unibus?: These are the AB connectors in the *last* position of a >> backplane. >> It allows for bridging between backplanes. The only ?card? that can go >> these >> ?slots? is a terminator (ie M930) or a terminator bootstrap (ie M9312). >> >> SPC: These are the CDEF connectors in any of the slots of a ?unibus? >> backplane. >> Not all backplanes support SPC slots. >> >> MUD: These are the AB connectors in some newer backplanes (usually >> associated with >> the extra slots in a CPU backplane?11/34 and 11/04 CPUs have MUD slots). >> MUD >> stands for ?Modified Unibus Device?. They are *not* compatible with >> Unibus slots >> as they have different voltages present than what are on the Unibus >> slots. You *will* >> ?blow out? a board by plugging something designed for a Unibus slot into a >> MUD >> slot. >> >> > Yes. That is pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL > happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD > slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a > Unibus-slot? Most of those are memory boards and from my recollection they just won?t work. TTFN - Guy From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 12:08:56 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 18:08:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: > > Yes. That is pretty clear from pin assignment list that bad things WILL > > happen if you try to install a Unibus-slot-compatible device into a MUD > > slut. But the vice-versa? Installing a MUD-compatible device into a > > Unibus-slot? > > Most of those are memory boards and from my recollection they just won?t > work. > Ahh. You are thinking of hex size memory boards, right? I was think of the M9312 and M9301 bootstrap and terminator boards. Essentially a terminator with some bootstrap PROM and some logic to handle location 24/26 etc. Anyway, I will try to check the backplane wiring to see if that gives a hint. What still would be interesting to now is in what slot the M9301 or M9312 goes into a PDP-11/70. My guess is the last unibus slot on the bus with the jumpers installed. Much like the M9313 terminator and unibus exerciser which is in the last slot of the 11/750 unibus. /Mattis > > TTFN - Guy > > From azd30 at telus.net Thu Mar 17 12:14:55 2016 From: azd30 at telus.net (azd30) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 11:14:55 -0600 (MDT) Subject: NetBSD TK70 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1507545551.3600573.1458234895237.JavaMail.zimbra@mailid.telus.net> Hi Christian, Have you asked this question on the port-vax netbsd mailing list? Also you're on on Rel3, which is pretty old - I assume you have a good reason to be at that release level, Have you tried booting a newer release and see if the behavior is the same? I know, not exactly a convenient/easy thing to do on uVax II... cheers -- alex From cctalk at snarc.net Thu Mar 17 12:23:19 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:23:19 -0400 Subject: LAST CHANCE for VCF East exhibit registration Message-ID: <56EAE807.7050202@snarc.net> Everyone, There is less than one month until showtime. I'm declaring noon ET tomorrow as the final deadline for registering exhibits. Exhibits so far: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintage-computer-festival-east/vcf-east-exhibits/ Exhibit registration: http://www.vcfed.org/registration/east_exhibitor_register-online.php From pbirkel at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 12:50:09 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 13:50:09 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> Message-ID: <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> 11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's specially wired like everything else in Slot #1 through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40. M9302 goes in Row A-B Slot #44. KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1. Row C Slot #1 is empty. Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mattis Lind Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:09 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? ... What still would be interesting to know is in what slot the M9301 or M9312 goes into a PDP-11/70. My guess is the last unibus slot on the bus with the jumpers installed. Much like the M9313 terminator and unibus exerciser which is in the last slot of the 11/750 unibus. /Mattis > > TTFN - Guy > > From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 12:59:34 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 18:59:34 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: 2016-03-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Paul Birkel : > 11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's specially wired like everything > else in Slot #1 through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40. M9302 > goes in Row A-B Slot #44. > > KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1. > > Row C Slot #1 is empty. > > Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use. > > > I just found a rather unfocused picture of the backplane of a 11/70. And my guess was completely wrong. As you wrote it is in slot 1 EF. And the M9302 in the last slot as normal. /Mattis From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 13:26:39 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:26:39 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:59 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > 2016-03-17 18:50 GMT+01:00 Paul Birkel : > > > 11/70: M9301-YC -- E-F Slot #1. It's specially wired like everything > > else in Slot #1 through Slot #39. SPC doesn't start until Slot #40. > M9302 > > goes in Row A-B Slot #44. > > > > KW11 (clock) goes adjacent in Row D Slot #1. > > > > Row C Slot #1 is empty. > > > > Rows A-B Slot #1 take the FP & CP maintenance modules, if in use. > > > > > > > I just found a rather unfocused picture of the backplane of a 11/70. And my > guess was completely wrong. As you wrote it is in slot 1 EF. And the M9302 > in the last slot as normal. > > /Mattis > I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the 2nd/rear of two backplanes here: http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on the 9312. http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.JPG -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From dab at froghouse.org Thu Mar 17 14:15:41 2016 From: dab at froghouse.org (David Bridgham) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:15:41 -0400 Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc In-Reply-To: <20160317155919.D55CF18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160317155919.D55CF18C097@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56EB025D.6040706@froghouse.org> On 03/17/2016 11:59 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > Each segment > > is in it's own address space; any memory reference was, per force, a > > segment number and offset. > > In this last sentence, is that referring to Multics? > > If so, that is exactly how the x86 _hardware_ works, He might have been referring to how the GE processor mapped each segment to physical memory on its own while the x86 maps the segments into a single 2^32 byte linear address space first and then maps that to physical memory. The x86 got this one wrong, in my opinion, as it means you can't have full-sized segments if you have more than one effective segment. Or if you can do it, it's going to be a painful process of keeping multiple versions of the segment table that maps in different windows of the full-sized segment you're trying to access. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 14:18:48 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:18:48 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Hi The 4289 can be used for RAM with the 4040, using the WPM and RPM. It can be used on the 4004 but it is limited to WPM only. The RAM can then be use for both program and for data. I don't recall if the 4008/9 support the RPM but I can look that up later tonight. It sounds like you may have a MCS4-02 or -03 board. I'd love to see a picture of what you do have. Don't assume the EPROMs are empty. I have a working system with 3 1702As programmed in 1973. They still contain the original data and work fine ( I have of course backed up the data ). There are several assemblers and simulators available on the web. I use my own home brew assembler and simulator. The assembler is straight forward but simulators are tricky. If you don't know how to write code ( usually using the same compiler ) you may not be able to do much useful simulation. Attaching realtime I/O functions can be tricky as they are the useful testbench part of the simulator. You are welcome to my tools but they are written in Forth ( Win32 Forth ). In any case, please don't erase the EPROMs, thinking they are blank. I offer my services to read them. Also, there may be someone closer to you that can extract the data. It is also, not that hard to create a socket adapter to read out on a programmer that can read 2716's. It does require an extra power supply for the -10V. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 9:19 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 9:04 AM, Kyle Owen wrote: > Wow, an engineering sample 4040. Very nice. Highly sought after by those > CPU collectors out there. I noticed that it was an engineering sample, but hadn't really thought about that making it more valuable to collectors. Perhaps I should sell that chip and buy a production 4040 for my homebrew system. I'd also like to get a 4201 clock generator, 4289 memory interface (replaces 4008/4009 pair with one chip), 4265 GPIO, and 4269 keyboard/display interface. And some 4002 RAMs. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 14:26:59 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:26:59 -0400 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > There is a nice 1975 iasis inc.educational book series about microcomputers. Volume III covers "The 4-bit Microcomputer" and takes a person step by step through the 4004 processor, and it came with a reference card. It covers the entire chip set for the i4000. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 15:02:19 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:02:19 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > > > I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the > 2nd/rear of two backplanes here: > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG > > With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on the > 9312. > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.JPG This means that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus, right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter. I have now beeped my way through all signals of the AB slots of the 11/05-NC backplane. Slots 2-9 has "Standard Unibus Pin Assignments" No MUD slots anywhere. Then I rechecked the M9301 and M9312 schematics. There are no signals used on those that would conflict with the "Standard Unibus Pin Assignments". I will also check the boards physically to see if there is a difference in signals that are used. Then unless someone tell me "it won't work, I have tried setting a M9301 in a standard unibus slot" I will go ahead and try it. After all this is how my PDP-11/05-S was configured when it arrived. /Mattis > > From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 15:23:45 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:23:45 -0600 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:18 PM, dwight wrote: > The 4289 can be used for RAM with the 4040, using the WPM and RPM. It can be used > on the 4004 but it is limited to WPM only. I know about that; what I was asking about was whether the 4289 (or 4008/4009) could replace "normal' 4002 RAM. I think the answer is negative. > In any case, please don't erase the EPROMs, thinking they are blank. > I offer my services to read them. Also, there may be someone closer > to you that can extract the data. I can read them. Or rather, I could if I had them. The sockets are empty. From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 15:25:23 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:25:23 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 4:02 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > > > > > > > > I took a look at my 11/40, it has a 9312 in pos 1/2 in the middle of the > > 2nd/rear of two backplanes here: > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/NPG.JPG > > > > With this arrangement I can boot into the console monitor installed on > the > > 9312. > > http://vintagecomputer.net/digital/PDP11-40/Console_test.JPG > > > This means that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus, > right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter. > > Dave McGuire and I went over the system and concluded the same, basically it's either put it there or I can't have an RL02 drive controller because the NC Grant. Dave pulled the NC Grant wire from the backplane (where the NC Grant card is now). Anyway, I think the RAM card I have installed in this machine is conflicting somehow with the RL02 attempt to initialize, this is TBD, but I can't quite boot the machine. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 15:59:56 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:59:56 +0100 Subject: PDP-11/05-NC with M9301? In-Reply-To: References: <8C4B1906-DA63-450A-9C1E-2E8F55A2D423@shiresoft.com> <164201d18075$7302d730$59088590$@gmail.com> Message-ID: > > This means that you not have the terminator in the last slot of the bus, > > right? Since your bus is so short it won't probably matter. > > > > > Dave McGuire and I went over the system and concluded the same, basically > it's either put it there or I can't have an RL02 drive controller because > the NC Grant. Dave pulled the NC Grant wire from the backplane (where the > NC Grant card is now). > I am not sure what you mean by NC grant. On the other hand, when I think more about it, it is a little bit weird with this setup. A MUD slot does not carry the BG signals. And the M9312 does not terminate them unless there is five jumpers installed. This means there will be no terminator for the BG lines. I am not familiar with 11/35-11/40. Is there a terminator in the other end of the bus or is it on one of the CPU boards? The 11/04 (and 11/34) terminate the BG signals locally at the CPU board (since they are not terminated by the M9312 board in the MUD slot), the 11/05 does not terminate the BG signals on the CPU board it self but relies on the M930 close to the processor. So just maybe the BG signals are not propagating very well from the processor back to the device since there are no terminator for them in the far end? Just a thought. > > Anyway, I think the RAM card I have installed in this machine is > conflicting somehow with the RL02 attempt to initialize, this is TBD, but I > can't quite boot the machine. > I cannot really understand how the RAM card can conflict with the RL02 controller unless they are broken somehow. Fault in the address decoding maybe? I have a QBUS memory board that responds to almost the entire range. /Mattis From chrise at pobox.com Thu Mar 17 16:15:54 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 16:15:54 -0500 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160317211554.GI4440@n0jcf.net> On Thursday (03/17/2016 at 10:04AM -0500), Kyle Owen wrote: > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:43 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > > > > Unfortunately I do not, but I've recently become interested in such > > things, as I have received from a friend's estate an old board from an > > embedded system (possibly a cash register) which has a 4040 CPU. > > Photos here: > > > > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157665878868081/ > > > Wow, an engineering sample 4040. Very nice. Highly sought after by those > CPU collectors out there. You should be abel to build a nice system from > that. No telling what those hybrid packs did. Can't say I've come across > many 4004/4040 designs with such devices. I too have an engineering sample i4040 from 1975 (7504 date code). I found it in the attic of the place I worked while in high school in 1979. I saved it along with a second non-ES device all these years. Recently, I got the bug to see if either of these parts were still good and so I bought one of these, http://www.cpushack.com/mcs-4-test-boards-for-sale/ and sure enough, both 4040s are still good and run just fine on this test board. So count me in for collecting and sharing 4004/4040 code and simple system designs. This test board is a pretty simple design but there's still something fun about hand wiring a board, writing a little monitor and bringing it up to talk to a teletype ;-) Chris -- Chris Elmquist N?JCF From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 16:35:37 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 14:35:37 -0700 Subject: MEM11A Update Message-ID: Just wanted to let folks know where the MEM11A (as opposed to the UMF11) is. All of the verilog code is written for the CPLD and I?ve simulated full unibus transactions to the FRAM and everything seems to work. I?m almost done with schematic entry. I just have a few things to clean up and verify. I?ve done basic component placement (still have to finish placing the 40+ bypass capacitors). I?m planning on doing a 4 layer board so I can avoid having routing issues due to 3 different power supply voltages (yea, modern low voltage design meets 5v). I haven?t done a 4 layer design before, so I?m in for a bit of learning (mainly on how to ?pour? the inner layers). I?m still undecided if I?m going to place some (or all) of the bypass caps on the backside of the board. It would make things easier especially around the 100pin CPLD. At this point I?m hoping to FAB a set of prototype boards in about a month from now (mid to late April). I?ll hand populate a couple (total prototype FAB run will ~5 boards) and test them out. I?ll be using my 11/34, 11/40 and possibly my 11/20 for testing these so there should be pretty good coverage. I should know pretty quickly after I?ve started debugging the prototypes what the price will be for the assembled & tested boards. I?ll start taking orders then. I?ve also decided that the Unibus interface IC?s will be socketed (mainly I don?t want to deal with the ?wastage? from the assembly house for NLA parts). It also means that if some of my stock don?t work, it?s an ?easy? fix. For those that care, I?ll be using machined pin sockets (gold plated of course). Any for any that ask, no I will *not* be making the boards available without the drivers. I?ll be providing fully assembled and tested boards. TTFN - Guy From seefriek at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:38:42 2016 From: seefriek at gmail.com (Ken Seefried) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 17:38:42 -0400 Subject: ISO: VAX-11/75 Message-ID: > My call for a VAX-11/750 a month or so ago actually bore some fruit > (locally, even!) and as of a couple of weeks ago, I now have a very > nicely configured 11/750 system taking up most of the basement. Some guys have all the luck. Now if anyone in the Southeast has a 750 they're no longer attached to... Congrats KJ From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 16:43:02 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 10:43:02 +1300 Subject: ISO: VAX-11/75 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 10:38 AM, Ken Seefried wrote: >> My call for a VAX-11/750 a month or so ago actually bore some fruit >> (locally, even!) and as of a couple of weeks ago, I now have a very >> nicely configured 11/750 system taking up most of the basement. > > Some guys have all the luck. Now if anyone in the Southeast has a 750 > they're no longer attached to... I'm also looking for a 750... since I'm in NZ it's pretty inevitably going to involve a long haul! Also on the lookout for 50Hz RA series drives - RA81 RA82 RA60 etc... my US ones are 60Hz and conversion to NZ 50Hz isn't really practical. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 17:34:05 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:34:05 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) Message-ID: <56EB30DD.3040407@gmail.com> Hi all -- Yesterday I replaced the dead 2N6547 transistor in the H7104 and fired 'er up again. Same exact results. (The timbre of the power supply whine may have changed slightly, it's hard to tell). So, back to the drawing board. I tested the replacement transistor after power-up and it was still good, so at least it wasn't a casualty. On closer inspection, I found what appears to be a large-ish (maybe 2.5-3mm in diameter) resistor with a hairline crack down the middle. Testing reveals it to be open-circuit, and looking at the print set reveals it to be connected to a leg of the transistor I just replaced, so that seems suspect. I noted no smoke or odor during any of the times I've powered this thing up (the resistor is on the outside edge of the supply and I was watching pretty closely at all times) so I assume it was dead long before I got ahold of this machine and I just overlooked it. It's listed in the print set as a 1 Ohm, 2 Watt resistor, with a "FUSE" designation. I'm not entirely sure what I should be searching for for a replacement; clearly the "fuse" part of the designation is important but I'm not sure what a modern equivalent is. I've browsed around Mouser for awhile and I'm not seeing anything obvious. I'm sure this is obvious to anyone with experience -- can you point me in the right direction? Thanks, Josh From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Thu Mar 17 17:46:20 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 15:46:20 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <56EB30DD.3040407@gmail.com> References: <56EB30DD.3040407@gmail.com> Message-ID: From: Josh Dersch: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:34 PM > It's listed in the print set as a 1 Ohm, 2 Watt resistor, with a "FUSE" > designation. I'm not entirely sure what I should be searching for for a > replacement; clearly the "fuse" part of the designation is important but > I'm not sure what a modern equivalent is. I've browsed around Mouser > for awhile and I'm not seeing anything obvious. I'm sure this is > obvious to anyone with experience -- can you point me in the right > direction? There was a recent discussion here about a similar component in a VT100 supply. I think a suitable replacement was eventually found at Farnell/Newark. Vince From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Thu Mar 17 18:05:33 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:05:33 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Honneywell multics? from panels. the inline phots in this message folks -smecc Message-ID: <20160317230533.464F018C096@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: David Bridgham > how the GE processor mapped each segment to physical memory on its own > while the x86 maps the segments into a single 2^32 byte linear address > space first and then maps that to physical memory. Oh, right, I remember there was a 4GB limit on physical memory (which I mentioned in an earlier message in this thread), but I'd forgotten the details. The paging is done on that 4GB linear address space, so it's separate from segmentation - on the 645 at least, the two are jumbled in together, which I find over-complex. I like the clean separation between paging and segments. > The x86 got this one wrong, in my opinion, as it means you can't have > full-sized segments if you have more than one effective segment. Well, but that's in the implementation, invisible to the user (in a properly done OS). The user-visible architecture is 16K segments (8K local, 8K global), of up to 4G each, or 2^46 total address space (per process). Yes, not more than 4GB of them can be resident in memory at any one time, but I'm not convinced that's a problem. Noel From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Thu Mar 17 19:44:10 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 00:44:10 +0000 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: On 17/03/2016 22:46, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > From: Josh Dersch: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:34 PM >> It's listed in the print set as a 1 Ohm, 2 Watt resistor, with a "FUSE" >> designation. I'm not entirely sure what I should be searching for for a >> replacement; clearly the "fuse" part of the designation is important but >> I'm not sure what a modern equivalent is. I've browsed around Mouser >> for awhile and I'm not seeing anything obvious. I'm sure this is >> obvious to anyone with experience -- can you point me in the right >> direction? > > There was a recent discussion here about a similar component in > a VT100 supply. I think a suitable replacement was eventually found > at Farnell/Newark. Yep, that was me looking for the same part. Does yours look like this? http://f0p.co.uk/r22.jpg According to Onecall Farnell 'a blue band at position 5 indicates 20% tolerance' which would make it a tolerance multiplier of 2. However the only ones they sell are 5% tolerance, ie brown-black-gold-gold not brown-black-gold-silver + blue, but the technical chap I spoke to seemed certain these would be ok. I bought 5 just in case. Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From drlegendre at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 20:54:44 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 20:54:44 -0500 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Glad this came back up. Was any consensus achieved, regarding the use of `flameproof` resistor types as direct substitutes for designated "fusible resistors"? On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 17/03/2016 22:46, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > > > From: Josh Dersch: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:34 PM > >> It's listed in the print set as a 1 Ohm, 2 Watt resistor, with a "FUSE" > >> designation. I'm not entirely sure what I should be searching for for a > >> replacement; clearly the "fuse" part of the designation is important but > >> I'm not sure what a modern equivalent is. I've browsed around Mouser > >> for awhile and I'm not seeing anything obvious. I'm sure this is > >> obvious to anyone with experience -- can you point me in the right > >> direction? > > > > There was a recent discussion here about a similar component in > > a VT100 supply. I think a suitable replacement was eventually found > > at Farnell/Newark. > > Yep, that was me looking for the same part. Does yours look like this? > > http://f0p.co.uk/r22.jpg > > According to Onecall Farnell 'a blue band at position 5 indicates 20% > tolerance' which would make it a tolerance multiplier of 2. > > However the only ones they sell are 5% tolerance, ie brown-black-gold-gold > not brown-black-gold-silver + blue, but the technical chap I spoke to > seemed > certain these would be ok. I bought 5 just in case. > > Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with > Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From derschjo at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 21:11:23 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 19:11:23 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> On 3/17/16 5:44 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 17/03/2016 22:46, "Vincent Slyngstad" wrote: > >> From: Josh Dersch: Thursday, March 17, 2016 3:34 PM >>> It's listed in the print set as a 1 Ohm, 2 Watt resistor, with a "FUSE" >>> designation. I'm not entirely sure what I should be searching for for a >>> replacement; clearly the "fuse" part of the designation is important but >>> I'm not sure what a modern equivalent is. I've browsed around Mouser >>> for awhile and I'm not seeing anything obvious. I'm sure this is >>> obvious to anyone with experience -- can you point me in the right >>> direction? >> There was a recent discussion here about a similar component in >> a VT100 supply. I think a suitable replacement was eventually found >> at Farnell/Newark. > Yep, that was me looking for the same part. Does yours look like this? > > http://f0p.co.uk/r22.jpg > > According to Onecall Farnell 'a blue band at position 5 indicates 20% > tolerance' which would make it a tolerance multiplier of 2. > > However the only ones they sell are 5% tolerance, ie brown-black-gold-gold > not brown-black-gold-silver + blue, but the technical chap I spoke to seemed > certain these would be ok. I bought 5 just in case. > > Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with > Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. > Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989-1272-1-ND/4215463 which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in case I ever need a few more. Thanks again, Josh From dkelvey at hotmail.com Thu Mar 17 21:51:22 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:51:22 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Eric The answer is no and yes. You can not use the normal RAM instructions with the 4289. Still, one can have RAM through the 4289. It would have no status RAM like the 4002s but for a program that is written to use conventional RAM through the 4289, it has no more overhead than regular 4002s, for character RAM. You'd setup a register pair as a pointer and a SRC, just like 4002s for character RAM. If you only need quick access of status RAM, you are stuck with 4002s or, create your own circuits. So, I wouldn't say yes and no, I think no and yes is the answer. I did look up to see if 4008/9 recognize the RPM. The 4040 shows WPM for both 4289 and 4008/9 but only shows RPM for the 4289. I take that to mean that the 4008/9 doesn't support the RPM, even with the 4040 processor. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:18 PM, dwight wrote: > The 4289 can be used for RAM with the 4040, using the WPM and RPM. It can be used > on the 4004 but it is limited to WPM only. I know about that; what I was asking about was whether the 4289 (or 4008/4009) could replace "normal' 4002 RAM. I think the answer is negative. > In any case, please don't erase the EPROMs, thinking they are blank. > I offer my services to read them. Also, there may be someone closer > to you that can extract the data. I can read them. Or rather, I could if I had them. The sockets are empty. From spacewar at gmail.com Thu Mar 17 23:15:33 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 22:15:33 -0600 Subject: MEM11A Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > I?m planning on doing a 4 layer board so I can avoid having routing issues due to 3 different > power supply voltages (yea, modern low voltage design meets 5v). I haven?t done a 4 layer > design before, so I?m in for a bit of learning (mainly on how to ?pour? the inner layers). In Eagle, you use the polygon tool, select the layer, and draw the polygon for the entire board outline (or wherever you want the pour). Then you use the "name" tool, select the polygon, and give it the name of the net you want it connected to (e.g, GND). Once you've done that, any time you do a ratsnest command, Eagle will recalculate the polygon and connect all through-holes of that net to the polygon (with thermals by default). It doesn't recalculate as you add or move components, so it will look wrong until you give another ratsnest command to recalculate it. While working on the layout, I find the display gets annoying with the polygons shown. Rather than hiding those layers, you can type "ripup @;" to remove the polygon routing until the next ratsnest command. I do that because I often have a few signals going through the layers that are otherwise mostly power planes, and I don't want to hide the entire layers because I want to see those signals. Of course, this also works on the top and bottom side if you want copper pour there. From ggs at shiresoft.com Thu Mar 17 23:57:34 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Thu, 17 Mar 2016 21:57:34 -0700 Subject: MEM11A Update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <671F51CE-6AB9-4536-B76D-7212E8E6F2D4@shiresoft.com> > On Mar 17, 2016, at 9:15 PM, Eric Smith wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 3:35 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> I?m planning on doing a 4 layer board so I can avoid having routing issues due to 3 different >> power supply voltages (yea, modern low voltage design meets 5v). I haven?t done a 4 layer >> design before, so I?m in for a bit of learning (mainly on how to ?pour? the inner layers). > > In Eagle, you use the polygon tool, select the layer, and draw the > polygon for the entire board outline (or wherever you want the pour). > Then you use the "name" tool, select the polygon, and give it the name > of the net you want it connected to (e.g, GND). Once you've done > that, any time you do a ratsnest command, Eagle will recalculate the > polygon and connect all through-holes of that net to the polygon (with > thermals by default). It doesn't recalculate as you add or move > components, so it will look wrong until you give another ratsnest > command to recalculate it. > > While working on the layout, I find the display gets annoying with the > polygons shown. Rather than hiding those layers, you can type "ripup > @;" to remove the polygon routing until the next ratsnest command. I > do that because I often have a few signals going through the layers > that are otherwise mostly power planes, and I don't want to hide the > entire layers because I want to see those signals. > > Of course, this also works on the top and bottom side if you want > copper pour there. Thanks. I think I have it mostly figured out. ;-) Still have to place all the caps. ;-) Then I can start to route everything. TTFN - Guy From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 18 00:11:11 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 05:11:11 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , Message-ID: Also, I've found a source for 5.185MHz crystals. ACE Components has some. They are in San Jose, on Oakland Rd. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of dwight Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 7:51 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 Eric The answer is no and yes. You can not use the normal RAM instructions with the 4289. Still, one can have RAM through the 4289. It would have no status RAM like the 4002s but for a program that is written to use conventional RAM through the 4289, it has no more overhead than regular 4002s, for character RAM. You'd setup a register pair as a pointer and a SRC, just like 4002s for character RAM. If you only need quick access of status RAM, you are stuck with 4002s or, create your own circuits. So, I wouldn't say yes and no, I think no and yes is the answer. I did look up to see if 4008/9 recognize the RPM. The 4040 shows WPM for both 4289 and 4008/9 but only shows RPM for the 4289. I take that to mean that the 4008/9 doesn't support the RPM, even with the 4040 processor. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Eric Smith Sent: Thursday, March 17, 2016 1:23 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 1:18 PM, dwight wrote: > The 4289 can be used for RAM with the 4040, using the WPM and RPM. It can be used > on the 4004 but it is limited to WPM only. I know about that; what I was asking about was whether the 4289 (or 4008/4009) could replace "normal' 4002 RAM. I think the answer is negative. > In any case, please don't erase the EPROMs, thinking they are blank. > I offer my services to read them. Also, there may be someone closer > to you that can extract the data. I can read them. Or rather, I could if I had them. The sockets are empty. From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Fri Mar 18 04:27:07 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 09:27:07 +0000 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/03/2016 02:11, "Josh Dersch" wrote: >> However the only ones they sell are 5% tolerance, ie brown-black-gold-gold >> not brown-black-gold-silver + blue, but the technical chap I spoke to seemed >> certain these would be ok. I bought 5 just in case. >> >> Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with >> Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. >> > > Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating > of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: > > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989- > 1272-1-ND/4215463 > > which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in > case I ever need a few more. I'll be adding mine tonight or tomorrow so if the smoke escapes I'll get some of those, why they didn't come up on my search for 'fusible resistor' I'll never know. -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 18 04:28:07 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 10:28:07 +0100 (CET) Subject: NetBSD TK70 question (solved) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 17 Mar 2016, Christian Corti wrote: > simple read(). All I get is > mt0: unknown opcode 0x80 status 0xc01 ignored [...] Ok, I was fishing deep in the TMSCP protocol manual, and after fiddling with the MSCP driver I found out that Opcode 0x80 (OP.END) alone (page A-2) means MSCP protocol violation (originating from the TQK70), and status 1 with subcode 0 (page B-3) means invalid message length... aha! I was issuing a read() with a requested length of 65536 bytes, too much, maximum is 65535. After I had reduced the length I could read the tape! So the following is for the records: 1. NetBSD doesn't know how to deal with such an MSCP error 2. SimH (GIT version) improperly ignores invalid buffer lengths Christian From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 18 04:40:59 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 02:40:59 -0700 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , Message-ID: <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Mar-17, at 10:11 PM, dwight wrote: > Also, I've found a source for 5.185MHz crystals. > ACE Components has some. They are in San Jose, on Oakland Rd. > Dwight I have two items which use 4004 procs, one is a Prolog M900B E/PROM programmer ca. 1979. The manual includes the firmware source. (Somewhat bizarrely, it's typed/printed onto coding forms.) Here are the first two pages (photos, not scanned). http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/m900pgm1m.jpg http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/m900pgm2m.jpg I've had to do some reverse engineering and work on the hardware (can provide schematic) but haven't sat down to examine the firmware. There are 12 more pages if it's of interest. It's not quite a complete program though, the plugin modules have chip-specific subroutines in more onboard 1702s, and those aren't included in the source provided. I do have ROM dumps for two of the modules that could be disassembled. I had a failed 4201 chip (clock gen), it would be nice to come across a replacement, but solved the problem with a substitute made from 3 CMOS chips. From abs at absd.org Fri Mar 18 05:23:20 2016 From: abs at absd.org (David Brownlee) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 10:23:20 +0000 Subject: NetBSD TK70 question In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 17 March 2016 at 11:34, Christian Corti wrote: > I'm not sure where I should start asking, so I'm starting here ;-) > > I have a problem reading TK70 (and probably TK50) tapes in NetBSD 3.0 on a > MicroVAX II. There is absolutely no way of reading a single tape block with > a simple read(). All I get is > mt0: unknown opcode 0x80 status 0xc01 ignored > on the console, and then the driver hangs. The output is generated in > /usr/src/sys/dev/mscp/mscp.c > It is my impression that the code has *never* been tested on real hardware > after all that years. BTW the TK70 is working fine otherwise (e.g. I can > boot the MVII diagnostic tape). > Now for something strange: the same procedure works in SimH (with the same > system installation and kernel). So apparently SimH has a "bug", too. It > doesn't behave like the real device. > Background of the story: I want to image TK70 tapes as TAP files. > > Has anyone ever encountered the same behaviour? I'm pretty sure TK50 tapes definitely worked around 1.6, as I built and tested releases on them :-p >From my very loose MSCP reading 0x80 would be M_OP_END and 0xc01 would be M_ST_INVALCMD (plus the 0xc00). Hmm, is it possible you're issuing a read for a different blocksize to that of the tape? As an aside if you wanted to test a more recent kernel you *should* be able to drop a new kernel as /netbsd.new or similar and then boot it directly and keep using the netbsd-3 userland. This may not work if the new kernel needs a more recent bootblock (which is sometimes unfortunately the case) From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 18 07:51:36 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 12:51:36 +0000 Subject: Front Panels - Update Message-ID: <56EBF9D8.3080200@btinternet.com> Hello Guys The latest batch of PDP-8 panels are now reaching their new owners. We held shipping until now to make sure we had good product. The only way you can check the quality is to go through the whole production cycle We threw a fair few in the dumpster! We did extra on the current run and there may be some 8/e Type B (After the switch change) available. Next up are PDP-8/f and /m to fulfill existing orders. I will be making for stock after fulfilling the current order book . My policy is to ship from prepackaged stock. We have loads of custom boxes and soft wrap. We intend to hold manufacturing cycle stock numbers This means if takes three weeks to make a batch we will stock three weeks sales. I'll publish the stock position once a week or by email order enquiry We will be stocking: 8/e A (pre switch change) 8/e B (post switch change) 8/f (maynard address) 8/f (galway address) 8/m (maynard address) 8/m (galway address) Later pdp11/XX Order cycle should be same/next day dispatch against item in stock and PayPal transfer Delivery to UK next day, Europe 1-3 days and the US 2-5days Currency exchange rates are moving all the time and may affect costs. OEM quantities for reproduction makers of any panel, any manufacturer may be possible. (Email me) Bespoke one off for major restorations - email me. Rod Smallwood (Panelman) From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 07:00:29 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 08:00:29 -0400 Subject: Reproduction 8/e panel from Rod Smallwood Message-ID: I received my reproduction 8/e panel from Rod Smallwood (aka "panelman") this week. It looks spectacular compared to the peeling paint on the original. Rod did not drill the hole for the rotary switch because the position varies a little depending on the revision of the switch panel. I put the original panel on top of the new one, marked the rotary switch location, drilled a pilot hole and successively larger holes. I had to adjust the position of the AC power switch a little to optimize the clearance around the switches, but that was easy. The original panel had rubber bumpers between the panel and the front of the chassis that I will attach to the new panel with double sided adhesive tape. The original panel had a tapered relief at the back of the hole for the AC power switch, but the new one does not. I will use a file or Dremel tool to remove some of the panel material. Without the relief the panel will get stressed near the AC switch. Overall, the workmanship on the panel is spectacular. Now I need to repaint the 8/e front panel frame, RX01, RK05, and TU56 so they look as nice as the new front panel. -- Michael Thompson From krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Fri Mar 18 08:34:19 2016 From: krause at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Klemens Krause) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:34:19 +0100 (MET) Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016, Brent Hilpert wrote: > > > I have two items which use 4004 procs, one is a Prolog M900B E/PROM programmer ca. 1979. > The manual includes the firmware source. (Somewhat bizarrely, it's typed/printed onto coding forms.) > Here are the first two pages (photos, not scanned). We have this Prolog 900 too and I remember the hand written firmware listing in the manual. It should be somewhere in a pile of papers. And we have the Prolog M980, which contains a 4040. And we also have a PCB, containing a 4004 system. I once reverse engineered the hardware and added a keyboard an a display to it. I wrote a program for an desktop calculator. Integer only, but it can calculate square roots. With luck the source for this should be on an old PC of mine. look at www.computermuseum-stuttgart.de/dev/i4004 (sorry, I didn't translate this page. We have also the "MCS-4 Users Manual" (Feb. 1973, Rev. 4). It contains some coding examples (16 digit addition, BCD to binary conversion, A-D- converter) Klemens -- klemens krause Stuttgarter KompetenzZentrum fyr Minimal- & Retrocomputing. http://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:04:46 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:04:46 +0100 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet Message-ID: I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. >From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a text-only terminal session fairly readily. Not much more than that, though. Has anyone on CC done this? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From austinpass at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:09:19 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:09:19 +0000 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> > On 18 Mar 2016, at 14:04, Liam Proven wrote: > > I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. > > From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal > emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just > run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a > text-only terminal session fairly readily. > > Not much more than that, though. > I haven't, but have all the pre-requisites to giving it a go... -Austin. From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:15:28 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:15:28 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca>, Message-ID: I find it interesting that most applications seem to use a small amount of RAM but a lot of ROM. When the 4004 was designed, it had the extra pins assigned to select more banks of RAM instead of ROM. By the 4040 time they added more ROM select controls. I don't think I've ever seen all possible RAM banks used. Also, you see most applications using 1702s instead of 4001 or 4308. I've never seen a 4308 in the wild. Dwight From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:20:13 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:20:13 +0100 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> References: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 March 2016 at 15:09, Austin Pass wrote: >> On 18 Mar 2016, at 14:04, Liam Proven wrote: >> >> I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. >> >> From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal >> emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just >> run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a >> text-only terminal session fairly readily. >> >> Not much more than that, though. >> > > I haven't, but have all the pre-requisites to giving it a go... I'd be fascinated to hear of any gotchas if you were curious enough to give it a go. My skills at things like making serial cables are very minimal indeed. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 09:27:51 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 14:27:51 +0000 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: >I'd be fascinated to hear of any gotchas if you were curious enough to >give it a go. My skills at things like making serial cables are very >minimal indeed. I know exactly where my Z88 and power supply are, serial cable and modem not a problem. But! Dial-up services? I could RS232 onto a VAX... A On 18 March 2016 at 14:20, Liam Proven wrote: > On 18 March 2016 at 15:09, Austin Pass wrote: > >> On 18 Mar 2016, at 14:04, Liam Proven wrote: > >> > >> I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. > >> > >> From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal > >> emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just > >> run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a > >> text-only terminal session fairly readily. > >> > >> Not much more than that, though. > >> > > > > I haven't, but have all the pre-requisites to giving it a go... > > I'd be fascinated to hear of any gotchas if you were curious enough to > give it a go. My skills at things like making serial cables are very > minimal indeed. > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From lproven at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 10:13:34 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 16:13:34 +0100 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 March 2016 at 15:27, Adrian Graham wrote: > I know exactly where my Z88 and power supply are, serial cable and modem > not a problem. But! Dial-up services? I could RS232 onto a VAX... Since I've been playing with my new Raspberry Pi 3 today, I was thinking one of those might make a convenient host system. A USB <=> RS-232 convertor is probably the easiest way. -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From binarydinosaurs at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 10:44:19 2016 From: binarydinosaurs at gmail.com (Adrian Graham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:44:19 +0000 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18 March 2016 at 15:13, Liam Proven wrote: > Since I've been playing with my new Raspberry Pi 3 today, I was > thinking one of those might make a convenient host system. A USB <=> > RS-232 convertor is probably the easiest way. > I can do that too :) -- adrian/witchy Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection? www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk From austinpass at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 10:51:53 2016 From: austinpass at gmail.com (Austin Pass) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:51:53 +0000 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: <305CE9EA-0583-488D-8B9C-A2CAAC7DFEEB@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sent from my iPhone > On 18 Mar 2016, at 14:20, Liam Proven wrote: > > I'd be fascinated to hear of any gotchas if you were curious enough to > give it a go. My skills at things like making serial cables are very > minimal indeed. I have the original Z88 serial cable for mine (it's a fully boxed original). I even have a vintage 3Com terminal server that can bridge COM ports to IP's via telnet. I'll hook it all up and let you know how I get on. From rrissell at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 10:06:55 2016 From: rrissell at gmail.com (Robert Rissell) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 11:06:55 -0400 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Your problem would be finding a suitable host device. Early internet access was serviced by text only portals such as Gopher. Today I would not count on finding one operating other than as a remote termial session on an older machine. On Mar 18, 2016 10:04 AM, "Liam Proven" wrote: > I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. > > From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal > emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just > run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a > text-only terminal session fairly readily. > > Not much more than that, though. > > Has anyone on CC done this? > > -- > Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile > Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven > MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven > Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) > From jwest at classiccmp.org Fri Mar 18 15:57:30 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:57:30 -0500 Subject: ACE Key codes (xx2247 etc.) In-Reply-To: References: <001a01d1700b$18476ba0$48d642e0$@classiccmp.org> <20160306004209.08CCEA58535@yagi.h-net.msu.edu> <000201d1774f$221ca780$6655f680$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <002001d18158$cece5970$6c6b0c50$@classiccmp.org> FYI - the key codes I measured previously for Data General and HP have been cut, tested, and verified. Amazingly, my measurements were correct. So to summarize: XX2247 Code: 5173757 Use: DEC PDP-8 (all varieties), PDP-11 machines that do not use an ACE blank (11/24, 11/44) XX2065 Code: 1353757 Use: Data General Nova (800,1200,1220,2,3) Eclipse (S/130,S/200) XX2946 Code: 4557457 Use: Hewlett-Packard 2100A/2100S NOTE: The codes above are listed 7-1, and all key cuts are center offset. Still unconfirmed or need more information: Cromemco: XX4306 Code: (Mike Stein was going to measure his cuts) Use: Cromemco Systems CS-1/CS-3/CS-100 J From aek at bitsavers.org Fri Mar 18 17:48:32 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 15:48:32 -0700 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? Message-ID: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> we have a bunch of optical packs at CHM that we'd like to archive does anyone have a working setup? From kylevowen at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 19:15:22 2016 From: kylevowen at gmail.com (Kyle Owen) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 19:15:22 -0500 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: On Mar 18, 2016 9:15 AM, "dwight" wrote: > > Also, you see most applications using 1702s instead of 4001 > or 4308. I've never seen a 4308 in the wild. I've seen one 4308 in the wild: in a later generation ARC RT-485A NAV/COM radio. The earlier ones just use four 4001s. Kyle From tmfdmike at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 21:26:47 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 22:26:47 -0400 Subject: Baydel Unibus disk systems Message-ID: Folks, I've found something I forgot I had; a Baydel Unibus disk controller. At one time I had 3 or 4 of these in complete systems but carelessly managed to trade them all away(!) - except this one board. They were all identical; a pdp-11/04 with a quad Unibus Baydel disk controller hooked up to an 8" hard drive in a separate rack mount. In use the Baydel subsystem emulated multiple RK05s. The part number on the board is B01061. Unusually Google seems to be utterly silent on the subject; it seems Baydel and these products have slipped beneath the digital waves without trace. Does anyone have any information? I just have the controller board; I don't have any of the hard drives left. All I remember is the disk was an 8" and the interface is a single 40-pin cable; so not SMD and not SCSI. Far too early for IDE or ATA. Any suggestions for what the interface might have been and what disks might have been used? What hard disks were around in late 70s / early 80s that used a single 40-pin connector?? Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From sellam at vintagetech.com Fri Mar 18 20:49:42 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Fri, 18 Mar 2016 18:49:42 -0700 (PDT) Subject: PDP 8A for sale Message-ID: I have a PDP 8A for sale. It's kind of a project but as far as I can tell it's complete, with the front panel. See photos and information here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%201/ Asking price is $900 obo. I also have two other PDP 8A systems in various states of disrepair here: Complete boardset and chassis without front panel - asking $450 obo http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%202/ Junk system for parts/serious restoration - asking $300 obo http://vintagetech.com/sales/Big%20Iron/PDP%208a/Chassis%203/ Also please start here and navigate for more computers I presently have for sale: http://vintagetech.com/sales/ Please inquire directly with me with any questions. Thanks! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From useddec at gmail.com Fri Mar 18 23:15:52 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 00:15:52 -0400 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? In-Reply-To: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> References: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: I have a RV20 somewhere. Are you in a big hurry? On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > we have a bunch of optical packs at CHM that we'd like to archive > does anyone have a working setup? > > From cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de Sat Mar 19 03:41:20 2016 From: cc at informatik.uni-stuttgart.de (Christian Corti) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 09:41:20 +0100 (CET) Subject: Baydel Unibus disk systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, 18 Mar 2016, Mike Ross wrote: > I just have the controller board; I don't have any of the hard drives > left. All I remember is the disk was an 8" and the interface is a > single 40-pin cable; so not SMD and not SCSI. Far too early for IDE or > ATA. Any suggestions for what the interface might have been and what > disks might have been used? What hard disks were around in late 70s / > early 80s that used a single 40-pin connector?? My guess is that it's not a controller board but just the interface to the controller found in the external enclosure, probably with the hard drive. The interface would implement things like NPR and BR and the like, so there wouldn't be enough board space to implement a complete hard drive controller, especially if the board dates from that era. IMO it's something like a RX211 board for hard drives. Christian From aek at bitsavers.org Sat Mar 19 12:01:40 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 10:01:40 -0700 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? In-Reply-To: References: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56ED85F4.4030501@bitsavers.org> On 3/18/16 9:15 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > I have a RV20 somewhere. Are you in a big hurry? > > On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > >> we have a bunch of optical packs at CHM that we'd like to archive >> does anyone have a working setup? >> >> no, but I have nothing with a LESI interface, so finding a whole running system would be better From mattislind at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 12:12:17 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 18:12:17 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/a parts, 8 inch CDC floppy drives, 5.25 inch FH Tandon drives, TI SilentWriter, DECprinter I, LA30 Message-ID: I saw that there were a post on PDP-8/a systems (and parts). I have a few 8A100 chassis. These are H9300 with a G8016 regulator board. No CPU, no memory, no frontpanels. Just the H9300 chassis including the 10 slot backplane, the 50Hz transformer assembly and the G8016 MOS memory regulator. BTW. The backup batteries are probably not in good shape any longer. Nothing is tested so capacitors etc might need checking. There are also some G8018 regulators, 50 Hz transformers for 8A400/8A600/8A800 boxes, 50 Hz transformers for 8A420/8A620/8A820 boxes (these are really very heavy). Then there are two CDC / IMI floppy drives. BR8A5D. Single sided. 8 inch. http://i.imgur.com/cMp76YA.jpg http://i.imgur.com/EA91ayu.jpg http://i.imgur.com/pWpmdX6.jpg http://i.imgur.com/eP3m06n.jpg They are in the original box. Not sure if these are new or not. They look fine. But haven't tested them. I might be able to test if there are interest. Then two Tandon TM100-3 Single sided 80 tracks / 96 TPI drives. Tested working. http://i.imgur.com/UOnHNNI.jpg http://i.imgur.com/F4ypilz.jpg We have one too many of TI SlientWriters. I have no picture of it currently. But is som 7XX model I think. Printing on thermo paper. Interest? We have a few DECprinter I aka LA180. A manual can be included as well... And since we got one LA30 working just fine, we don't need another one. There is one DECwriter / LA30 available. It is complete but will probably need care and attention to get working. Everything is located in Sweden so shipping can be rather expensive for heavier items. Trade for something interesting... /Mattis From pbirkel at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 13:40:22 2016 From: pbirkel at gmail.com (Paul Birkel) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 14:40:22 -0400 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> Message-ID: <19b401d1820e$cbe94330$63bbc990$@gmail.com> -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 5:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 ..... I had a failed 4201 chip (clock gen), it would be nice to come across a replacement, but solved the problem with a substitute made from 3 CMOS chips. ----- Brent: Could you share your CMOS circuit design for a 4201 substitute? THX! From dkelvey at hotmail.com Sat Mar 19 18:03:25 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 23:03:25 +0000 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: <19b401d1820e$cbe94330$63bbc990$@gmail.com> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca>, <19b401d1820e$cbe94330$63bbc990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: There is a 4201 by national semi on ebay. I bought a 4201 recently for around $10. I'm mostly looking for a 4040. I have a 4289, three 4002-1s and two 4002-2s. I'd like to setup the 4289 such that I have a boot ROM and then shadow it into RAM. I'd then disable the ROM and run on RAM only. The 4040 is a lot easier to setup for both write and read from the RAM. I also have an extra 4004 but it is an early zebra. I'd like to hang on to it. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Paul Birkel Sent: Saturday, March 19, 2016 11:40 AM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 5:41 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 ..... I had a failed 4201 chip (clock gen), it would be nice to come across a replacement, but solved the problem with a substitute made from 3 CMOS chips. ----- Brent: Could you share your CMOS circuit design for a 4201 substitute? THX! From useddec at gmail.com Sat Mar 19 23:34:18 2016 From: useddec at gmail.com (Paul Anderson) Date: Sat, 19 Mar 2016 23:34:18 -0500 Subject: PDP-8/a parts, 8 inch CDC floppy drives, 5.25 inch FH Tandon drives, TI SilentWriter, DECprinter I, LA30 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I have M8315s, M8316, M8317, M8357s (RX8-E), etc if anyone needs any to go with the boxes. Paul On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 12:12 PM, Mattis Lind wrote: > I saw that there were a post on PDP-8/a systems (and parts). > > I have a few 8A100 chassis. These are H9300 with a G8016 regulator board. > No CPU, no memory, no frontpanels. Just the H9300 chassis including the 10 > slot backplane, the 50Hz transformer assembly and the G8016 MOS memory > regulator. > > BTW. The backup batteries are probably not in good shape any longer. > Nothing is tested so capacitors etc might need checking. > > There are also some G8018 regulators, 50 Hz transformers for > 8A400/8A600/8A800 boxes, 50 Hz transformers for 8A420/8A620/8A820 boxes > (these are really very heavy). > > > Then there are two CDC / IMI floppy drives. BR8A5D. Single sided. 8 inch. > http://i.imgur.com/cMp76YA.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/EA91ayu.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/pWpmdX6.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/eP3m06n.jpg > > They are in the original box. Not sure if these are new or not. They look > fine. But haven't tested them. I might be able to test if there are > interest. > > Then two Tandon TM100-3 Single sided 80 tracks / 96 TPI drives. Tested > working. > http://i.imgur.com/UOnHNNI.jpg > http://i.imgur.com/F4ypilz.jpg > > We have one too many of TI SlientWriters. I have no picture of it > currently. But is som 7XX model I think. Printing on thermo paper. > Interest? > > We have a few DECprinter I aka LA180. A manual can be included as well... > > And since we got one LA30 working just fine, we don't need another one. > There is one DECwriter / LA30 available. It is complete but will probably > need care and attention to get working. > > Everything is located in Sweden so shipping can be rather expensive for > heavier items. > > Trade for something interesting... > > /Mattis > From pontus at Update.UU.SE Sun Mar 20 02:05:31 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 08:05:31 +0100 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? In-Reply-To: <56ED85F4.4030501@bitsavers.org> References: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> <56ED85F4.4030501@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <20160320070531.GA11903@Update.UU.SE> On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 10:01:40AM -0700, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/18/16 9:15 PM, Paul Anderson wrote: > >I have a RV20 somewhere. Are you in a big hurry? > > > >On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 6:48 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > >>we have a bunch of optical packs at CHM that we'd like to archive > >>does anyone have a working setup? > >> > >> > > no, but I have nothing with a LESI interface, so finding a whole running > system would be better > > I think I know where to find both an RV-20 and both qbus and unibus lesi interfaces. Not a working setup, but if you need spares. They are not mine but I think you could have them for free for the good cause. /P From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 20 06:27:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 04:27:04 -0700 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? In-Reply-To: <20160320070531.GA11903@Update.UU.SE> References: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> <56ED85F4.4030501@bitsavers.org> <20160320070531.GA11903@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <56EE8908.5010709@bitsavers.org> On 3/20/16 12:05 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > Not a working setup, but if you need spares. They are not mine but I think you > could have them for free for the good cause. > > /P > thanks! From aek at bitsavers.org Sun Mar 20 06:28:04 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 04:28:04 -0700 Subject: anyone have a working RV-20 or RV-64? In-Reply-To: <56EE8908.5010709@bitsavers.org> References: <56EC85C0.4090400@bitsavers.org> <56ED85F4.4030501@bitsavers.org> <20160320070531.GA11903@Update.UU.SE> <56EE8908.5010709@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: <56EE8944.5040404@bitsavers.org> On 3/20/16 4:27 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > On 3/20/16 12:05 AM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > >> Not a working setup, but if you need spares. They are not mine but I >> think you >> could have them for free for the good cause. >> >> /P >> > > thanks! > > btw, this would be to recover the CAD design data for the VAX 9000 From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 14:29:03 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 14:29:03 -0500 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56EEF9FF.5030009@gmail.com> On 03/18/2016 09:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. > >>From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal > emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just > run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a > text-only terminal session fairly readily. > > Not much more than that, though. > > Has anyone on CC done this? Not with a Z88, but I have done this with my Tandy 102, just for the heck of it. I believe the displays of the two machines are similar in size, and at least with the Tandy it was quite painful - it works, but not being able to see more than 8 lines of text at a time gets irritating quite fast. cheers Jules From theevilapplepie at gmail.com Sun Mar 20 14:36:36 2016 From: theevilapplepie at gmail.com (James Vess) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 14:36:36 -0500 Subject: A gold mine for anybody in Austin... In-Reply-To: <000601d18061$19655770$4c300650$@net> References: <003701d17cb6$4ed06f70$ec714e50$@net> <000601d18061$19655770$4c300650$@net> Message-ID: Hey Ali, No response yet and I followed up again with him. There was an initial response about getting photos then nada. On Thu, Mar 17, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Ali wrote: > James, > > Just wondering if you had any luck with the CL guy? Thanks. > > -Ali > > From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Mon Mar 21 12:02:43 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 11:02:43 -0600 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) Message-ID: A friend mentioned that there was a thread about the card guides in an 8a or 8e chassis but I was unable to locate it so I am posting this as a new thread as it has more relevance than just specifically those card guides. Nylon is hygroscopic. Hygroscopic means it has the ability to absorbs water. As nylon ages it drys out. When nylon dries out it shrinks and it becomes brittle. If a nylon part has not yet cracked or been damaged by UV it can be restored to almost like new simply by boiling it in water for 15 to 20 minutes. Boiling will force water back into the material and it will expand and soften. Do not use a pan with a ceramic type of non stick coating. I almost ruined a 10" skillet because it imparted a flavor to the coating which then transferred to the food cooked in the skillet. I don't know what effect microwaves would have on the Nylon matrix so I suggest you just use something like a Corning Ware ceramic glass pan on your range. I was able to restore almost all the unbroken card guides on my 8a. A couple of them had taken on a permanent bend due to excessive shrinkage. Some had broken pins. A few of the pieces expanded too much and you could plug them into the chassis but they bowed away from the edge because they had lengthened beyond original length. Waiting a few weeks allowed them to dry out a little and shrink and restored them to original size. Unfortunately there are no adhesives that will adhere to nylon long term so it is not possible to repair broken nylon parts in a usable manner. Nylon while cheap and easy to injection mold was probably not the best choice for card guides. But then who would ever have expected these machines to still be coveted 40 years after manufacture. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From paulkoning at comcast.net Mon Mar 21 12:16:34 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 13:16:34 -0400 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <5F3F6840-95D8-4E03-8AB4-1A77C115CD82@comcast.net> > On Mar 21, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > > A friend mentioned that there was a thread about the card guides in an 8a > or 8e chassis but I was unable to locate it so I am posting this as a new > thread as it has more relevance than just specifically those card guides. > > Nylon is hygroscopic. Hygroscopic means it has the ability to absorbs > water. As nylon ages it drys out. When nylon dries out it shrinks and it > becomes brittle. If a nylon part has not yet cracked or been damaged by UV > it can be restored to almost like new simply by boiling it in water for 15 > to 20 minutes. Boiling will force water back into the material and it will > expand and soften. Neat. > ... > Unfortunately there are no adhesives that will adhere to nylon long term so > it is not possible to repair broken nylon parts in a usable manner. True. But can you weld it (with a heat gun and nylon filler -- the way is routinely done with polyethylene)? > Nylon > while cheap and easy to injection mold was probably not the best choice for > card guides. But then who would ever have expected these machines to still > be coveted 40 years after manufacture. One possible consideration (apart from cheap and easy to manufacture) is that nylon is self-lubricating, a useful property for guides that have sliding contact with the card. Some 3d printers (not the very cheapest but still moderately priced ones) will handle nylon. paul From mardy at me.com Sun Mar 20 11:53:55 2016 From: mardy at me.com (Marden P. Marshall) Date: Sun, 20 Mar 2016 12:53:55 -0400 Subject: Free: DEC 19 Inch Rack and Kennedy Tri-Density 9-Track Drive in Exeter, NH, USA Message-ID: <7C2F772A-B295-41B4-8966-C46EB6B2F2B0@me.com> I have a vintage DEC 19 inch rack with a Kennedy 9400 Tri-Density 9-Track tape drive located in Exeter, NH, USA that needs a good home. If you?re interested I can send some photos, etc. Thanks, -Mardy From witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk Mon Mar 21 14:53:52 2016 From: witchy at binarydinosaurs.co.uk (Adrian Graham) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:53:52 +0000 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: On 18/03/2016 02:11, "Josh Dersch" wrote: >> Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with >> Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. >> > > Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating > of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: > > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989- > 1272-1-ND/4215463 > > which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in > case I ever need a few more. Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis yet... -- Adrian/Witchy Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer collection? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Mon Mar 21 15:30:42 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 13:30:42 -0700 Subject: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 In-Reply-To: <19b401d1820e$cbe94330$63bbc990$@gmail.com> References: <56E78B27.3010202@gmail.com> <56E8C197.2010608@gmail.com> , , <5C46AE2D-1602-4AE3-AE03-9E3300705C94@cs.ubc.ca> <19b401d1820e$cbe94330$63bbc990$@gmail.com> Message-ID: <5248F091-2B3D-400D-89EC-0F285188AE88@cs.ubc.ca> On 2016-Mar-19, at 11:40 AM, Paul Birkel wrote: > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Brent > Hilpert > Sent: Friday, March 18, 2016 5:41 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Code listings for the I4004 or I4040 > ..... > > I had a failed 4201 chip (clock gen), it would be nice to come across a > replacement, but solved the problem with a substitute made from 3 CMOS > chips. > > ----- > > Brent: Could you share your CMOS circuit design for a 4201 substitute? > THX! Dwight's ebay solution may be preferable but otherwise: http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~hilpert/tmp/timing4201.pdf From cctalk at snarc.net Mon Mar 21 17:34:34 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:34:34 -0400 Subject: VCF Southeast + East details updated Message-ID: <56F076FA.70009@snarc.net> It's almost time for two awesome Vintage Computer Festival shows! VCF Southeast is April 2-3. Details are here: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintag...val-southeast/. VCF East is April 15-17 (now including Ted Nelson!). Details are here: http://vcfed.org/wp/festivals/vintag...festival-east/. From ball.of.john at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:07:28 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:07:28 -0700 Subject: Anyone in the PNW Going to VCFwest this August? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm trying to figure out a logistical nightmare to get a number of machines down there before I commit to any reservations. I'm several hours East of Vancouver Canada but there is several hundred pounds in Silicon Graphics workstations, monitors and peripherals I planned to take. My car is far too small and I am not fully licensed to rent a truck for the week. Best I can hope is someone else with a large vehicle is going the same direction there and back. Can totally help to pay some of the costs. -John From jules.richardson99 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:25:20 2016 From: jules.richardson99 at gmail.com (Jules Richardson) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 18:25:20 -0500 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> On 03/21/2016 12:02 PM, Doug Ingraham wrote: > I was able to restore almost all the unbroken card guides on my 8a. A > couple of them had taken on a permanent bend due to excessive shrinkage. > Some had broken pins. A few of the pieces expanded too much and you could > plug them into the chassis but they bowed away from the edge because they > had lengthened beyond original length. Waiting a few weeks allowed them to > dry out a little and shrink and restored them to original size. Interesting... so boiling them can make them expand too much, leaving them for a few weeks will allow them to contract, but they "remember" their manufactured size, such that a few weeks after they they aren't trying to return to their shrunken, pre-boiled state? cheers Jules From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 21 18:37:17 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 16:37:17 -0700 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) In-Reply-To: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> References: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F085AD.5040501@sydex.com> On 03/21/2016 04:25 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > Interesting... so boiling them can make them expand too much, leaving > them for a few weeks will allow them to contract, but they > "remember" their manufactured size, such that a few weeks after they > they aren't trying to return to their shrunken, pre-boiled state? Interesting. If water evaporation accounts for the dimensional instability, why not use something that doesn't evaporate quite as easily? Say, ethylene glycol or a silicon oil? --Chuck From mhs.stein at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 18:56:08 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 19:56:08 -0400 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) References: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> <56F085AD.5040501@sydex.com> Message-ID: <908EF894CAFF4A1496C37738D32FA3C5@310e2> Interesting indeed; that explains why the two tiny nylon gears in almost every one of the small plotters based on the little Alps unit (Radio Shack, Commodore, Atari etc.) have split... m ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chuck Guzis" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 7:37 PM Subject: Re: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) > On 03/21/2016 04:25 PM, Jules Richardson wrote: > >> Interesting... so boiling them can make them expand too much, leaving >> them for a few weeks will allow them to contract, but they >> "remember" their manufactured size, such that a few weeks after they >> they aren't trying to return to their shrunken, pre-boiled state? > > Interesting. If water evaporation accounts for the dimensional > instability, why not use something that doesn't evaporate quite as > easily? Say, ethylene glycol or a silicon oil? > > --Chuck > From drlegendre at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 20:50:31 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 20:50:31 -0500 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: I don't quite get what makes this DigiKey part suitable for the role of a fused resistor. I do see that it has specs for 'fusing behavior' but that aside, I don't see that this series is marketed / sold as a "fusible resistor". One reason I question it, is the fact that the fusing ratings are only plotted for like 40X or 50X expected current. Can the circuit under protection be relied upon to produce those levels of current, even under hard-fault conditions? Always trying to learn.. On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 18/03/2016 02:11, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > >> Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with > >> Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. > >> > > > > Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating > > of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: > > > > > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989- > > 1272-1-ND/4215463 > > > > which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in > > case I ever need a few more. > > Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a > functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis yet... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From dkelvey at hotmail.com Mon Mar 21 21:34:36 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 02:34:36 +0000 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> , Message-ID: Maybe a real fuse in series with a real resistor. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of drlegendre . Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 6:50 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) I don't quite get what makes this DigiKey part suitable for the role of a fused resistor. I do see that it has specs for 'fusing behavior' but that aside, I don't see that this series is marketed / sold as a "fusible resistor". One reason I question it, is the fact that the fusing ratings are only plotted for like 40X or 50X expected current. Can the circuit under protection be relied upon to produce those levels of current, even under hard-fault conditions? Always trying to learn.. On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 2:53 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 18/03/2016 02:11, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > > >> Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with > >> Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. > >> > > > > Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating > > of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: > > > > > http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989- > > 1272-1-ND/4215463 > > > > which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in > > case I ever need a few more. > > Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a > functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis yet... > > -- > Adrian/Witchy > Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator > Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer > collection? > > > From curiousmarc3 at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:40:43 2016 From: curiousmarc3 at gmail.com (Curious Marc) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 20:40:43 -0700 Subject: Andy Grove passed away last night Message-ID: <5E003F3B-1CC6-4C7B-BEB3-457E31B5FBD8@gmail.com> >From the CHM: "Dear all, The museum is remembering Andy S. Grove, who passed away last night. Please read David C. Brock?s timely blog post this evening, http://www.computerhistory.org/atchm/remembering-andy-s-grove/ Best, Kirsten Tashev Vice-President, Collections & Exhibitions Computer History Museum" I met him during my time at Intel, he attended a couple important meetings (acquisitions discussions, company wide technical strategic planning meetings, quarterly meetings). But already in not so good health and not saying much. We sure listened when he spoke up. I remember in particular once when Intel had a really bad quarter because we raised the price of Flash, after misjudging worldwide inventory. We consequently lost a large part of the market to Samsung ? which probably never returned. Most CEOs would have fired the VP, but instead he took the mike and congratulated him for having had the guts to raise prices. We all applauded, but I distinctly remember I wasn't quite sure why... Bless his soul, he brought a company back from the brink of extinction selling RAM at negative margins, to industry dominance in microprocessors with 65% gross margins. That is excessively difficult to do. Marc From derschjo at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 22:40:55 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 20:40:55 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> On 3/21/16 12:53 PM, Adrian Graham wrote: > On 18/03/2016 02:11, "Josh Dersch" wrote: > >>> Onecall are education-only suppliers but the same part numbers work with >>> Farnell/Element14. Part# is 1692450. >>> >> Thanks! Yes, that looks very similar except mine has a tolerance rating >> of 10%. Vincent helpfully pointed me at: >> >> http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/tt-electronics-irc/SPP2UL1R00JLF/989- >> 1272-1-ND/4215463 >> >> which look like they should do the job, and I ordered a handful just in >> case I ever need a few more. > Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a > functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis yet... > Nice! My replacements arrived today and unfortunately I did not have such good luck. No smoke or fire, but now I get nothing at all out of the supply. The whine is gone, but there's nothing output at all. The fuse/resistor didn't blow (it's still got continuity across it) and the transistor I replaced is still fine, but there must be something else in the supply that's causing issues... Blargh. I hate working on power supplies. - Josh From cclist at sydex.com Mon Mar 21 22:44:33 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2016 20:44:33 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F0BFA1.2020801@sydex.com> On 03/21/2016 07:34 PM, dwight wrote: > Maybe a real fuse in series with a real resistor. I'd asked that, but reconsidered in that fusible resistors all seem to have a strong positive temperature coefficient and then a point at which they will fuse. IOW, the things degrade gradually before going ka-pow; something not realized with a resistor+fuse combination. See, for example: http://www.vishay.com/docs/28737/nfr25.pdf --Chuck From tmfdmike at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 23:45:09 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:45:09 +1300 Subject: Baydel Unibus disk systems In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 19, 2016 at 9:41 PM, Christian Corti wrote: > On Fri, 18 Mar 2016, Mike Ross wrote: >> >> I just have the controller board; I don't have any of the hard drives >> left. All I remember is the disk was an 8" and the interface is a >> single 40-pin cable; so not SMD and not SCSI. Far too early for IDE or >> ATA. Any suggestions for what the interface might have been and what >> disks might have been used? What hard disks were around in late 70s / >> early 80s that used a single 40-pin connector?? > > > My guess is that it's not a controller board but just the interface to the > controller found in the external enclosure, probably with the hard drive. > The interface would implement things like NPR and BR and the like, so there > wouldn't be enough board space to implement a complete hard drive > controller, especially if the board dates from that era. IMO it's something > like a RX211 board for hard drives. Well you were right on the money! I found a manual for the thing. More precisely I found I had a manual for the QBus version of the thing squirreled away. Baydel called the entire Qbus subsystem the 'Baydel D405' - and Google returns precisely zero relevant hits for that search! I don't know what they called the Unibus version. The host interface (Unibus or Qbus) was indeed only half the system. Bayel referred to it as the 'I-board' (for 'interface'); it talked via the 40 pin connector to the 'P-board' (for 'personality') mounted in the drive chassis; the P-board did indeed implement the drive controller functions. The drive was a Pertec D8000 20MB Winchester; the drive chassis could contain one of these (which all my systems did) or two of these (which needed a special handler for the OS) or one 20MB hard disk plus one Shugart 8" floppy - which emulated an RX02. That all rings bells with what I had. Doesn't help much as the chances of me finding such a subsystem are tending to zero I suspect. But mystery solved! Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From malcolm at avitech.com.au Mon Mar 21 16:02:02 2016 From: malcolm at avitech.com.au (malcolm at avitech.com.au) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:02:02 +1100 Subject: Request for TU58 tapes (DECtape II) Message-ID: <00ad01d183b4$ed60a1a0$c821e4e0$@avitech.com.au> I've just finished a restoration of a TU58 drive. I'm looking for a small quantity of TU58 tapes (perhaps 2 tapes?) to use with it. Ideally I'm looking for tapes that have been run through a drive recently and known to be not shedding oxide. If anyone has some that they are prepared to part with, please let me know. I'm happy to pay for the tapes plus shipping. Thanks - Malcolm. From billdegnan at gmail.com Mon Mar 21 23:00:44 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 00:00:44 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK Message-ID: Anyone have the multinet 4.1 PAK checksum and install key info? I need to re-install my PAK and I don't have *doh!* the checksum value. I thought I did but...nope. ------- Product ID -------- ---- Rating ----- -- Version -- Product Producer Units Avail Activ Version Date Expires MULTINET TGV 200 F 0 0.0 31-JUL-1997 (none) A-10098-116512 issued by TGV thanks Bill -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 02:29:58 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:29:58 +0100 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> References: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: >>> Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a >> functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis yet... >> >> Nice! My replacements arrived today and unfortunately I did not have > such good luck. No smoke or fire, but now I get nothing at all out of the > supply. The whine is gone, but there's nothing output at all. The > fuse/resistor didn't blow (it's still got continuity across it) and the > transistor I replaced is still fine, but there must be something else in > the supply that's causing issues... > > Blargh. I hate working on power supplies. In this case you have an excellent technical manual and a good schematic which should help a lot. Working with big SMPSU without schematics or technical manuals is a not fun. So here is my piece of advice directly from my head. 1. The PSU has really two AC inputs wired together in the input harness. You can separate the startup supply part from the SMPSU part. Connect the startup PSU to a separate AC input and the SMPSU part to a insulation transformer, a variac and lightbulb in series. 2. Check that the startup PSU, that uses a normal 50/60 Hz transformer gives the correct voltage. +11 if I remember correctly. 3. There is a circuit that monitors the input rectified 300VDC voltage and enables the relay when it has reached a proper voltage. It is a soft start. Disable it for temporarily. Good idea to check that is working though. If not the soft start resistors will become overheated when trying to run it at full load. 4. Now you need to have the SMPSU section connected to AC inlet. On one of the daughter boards there is a switching bias supply. Check that it generates the +/-12 V and +5V. 5. Is the main SMPSU switching logic making a nice square wave signal output. The control board is yet another daughter board. 6. I disconnected the output terminals from the H-bridge to the transformer and connected a dummy load to be able to have a look at the output waveform. 7. Reconnect the transformer. The main switch produces +5V and +38V. The 38V is then used on the daughterboards to create all the other voltages, +/- 12V, +/- 15V, +12V SB, +5VSB (depending on which supply). Is there 38V here? 8. There is a crowbar circuit on the +5V output terminals. Check that it is not tripping. Please note that when working with the +2.5V supply it gets the bias voltages from the +5V supply. So either get that one working first or supply bias voltage from a regular PC supply. /Mattis > > > - Josh > > From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Mar 22 06:29:18 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 11:29:18 +0000 (WET) Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Tue, 22 Mar 2016 00:00:44 -0400" Message-ID: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> > > Anyone have the multinet 4.1 PAK checksum and install key info? I need to > re-install my PAK and I don't have *doh!* the checksum value. I thought I > did but...nope. > You can get a Multinet hobbyist license from Process software if you first get a VMS hobbyist license from HP. Both are free of charge and entail a small amount of form filling on websites. The main snag is the licenses need to be renewed each year. You also need to be a member of a user group such as DECUS or Interex or whatever it is called this week. Some of these have membership fees but as far as I know, there is at least one international group that anyone can join for free. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Tue Mar 22 10:20:27 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:20:27 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> Message-ID: <840AD0E73F4043D99A17D4A17A39052D@Vincew7> From: drlegendre: Monday, March 21, 2016 6:50 PM > I don't quite get what makes this DigiKey part suitable for the role of a > fused resistor. I do see that it has specs for 'fusing behavior' but that > aside, I don't see that this series is marketed / sold as a "fusible > resistor". I take "UL1412 recognised fusing" (sic) on the first line of the data sheet to mean that they do market them that way. > One reason I question it, is the fact that the fusing ratings are only > plotted for like 40X or 50X expected current. Can the circuit under > protection be relied upon to produce those levels of current, even under > hard-fault conditions? I read a little over 1000 seconds to fuse at 10W, which is only a few times the 2W rating. Admittedly, 20 minutes at 5X load amounts to a pretty slow fuse. I can only assume their concern is fire prevention, rather than circuitry protection. With regard to the suggestion of a fuse and a resistor, you'd need more room (likely not a problem), and a flameproof version of the resistor. I don't know anything about UL ratings, so I don't know if that could be made OK there or not. Vince From mattislind at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 10:34:01 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:34:01 +0100 Subject: RSX11S Message-ID: While archiving a bunch of old 8 inch disks I found disks that apparently contain an old RSX11S system. I think it has been used in some kind of railroad CTC system. https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/PDP11RX01DISKS/DISK4.RAW It is possible to boot this image in SimH (when setting CPU type to 11/03, 11/23 (F11), 11/34 or 11/73 (J11) ) I get this: sim> b rx0 XDT: 18 XDT>g RSX-11S V02 BL18 DEVICE TT01: NOT IN CONFIGURATION DEVICE FT00: NOT IN CONFIGURATION >a MCR -- 1 >b MCR -- 1 >ccc MCR -- 1 > So first there is a XDT> prompt. By pressing g or p it starts RSX11S. But it seems to be possible to do other things. Commands like "s" and "l" do stuff "x" causes: XDT>x SYSTEM CRASH AT LOCATION 025276 REGISTERS R0=000000 R1=177170 R2=003403 R3=157000 R4=012422 R5=000002 SP=157004 PS=000340 SYSTEM STACK DUMP LOCATION CONTENTS 157004 157150 HALT instruction, PC: 000572 (MOVB #15,R2) sim> I understand that RSX11S is a scaled down version of RSX11M. An embedded RTOS of that day. But what kind of commands are possible at the XDT and MCR(?) prompts. I am a little bit curious to understand more about the system that it has been running. /Mattis From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Mar 22 10:38:22 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:38:22 -0500 Subject: Anyone want some Polymorphic 88 manuals and disks? Message-ID: I had a Poly 8813, and just found that I still have the System 88 User's Manual, including the Macro 88 manual, schematics, and 16K RAM manual/schematics. I also have some disks that came with the system, though their status is unknown. I believe many of them were just blank, but there is some system software and a general ledger program disk. Anyone want these? The manuals seem to be readily available online already. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From dkelvey at hotmail.com Tue Mar 22 11:33:27 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:33:27 +0000 Subject: Anyone want some Polymorphic 88 manuals and disks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Hi Ben I have the manual but would be interested in the disk. Do you know if they are hard or soft sectored? I suspect they are hard sectored as that was the most common. There soft sectored was not industry standard and took a special controller to read. What are you looking for? Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Ben Sinclair Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 8:38 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Anyone want some Polymorphic 88 manuals and disks? I had a Poly 8813, and just found that I still have the System 88 User's Manual, including the Macro 88 manual, schematics, and 16K RAM manual/schematics. I also have some disks that came with the system, though their status is unknown. I believe many of them were just blank, but there is some system software and a general ledger program disk. Anyone want these? The manuals seem to be readily available online already. -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Mar 22 11:33:43 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:33:43 -0600 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) In-Reply-To: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> References: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Jules Richardson < jules.richardson99 at gmail.com> wrote: > > Interesting... so boiling them can make them expand too much, leaving them > for a few weeks will allow them to contract, but they "remember" their > manufactured size, such that a few weeks after they they aren't trying to > return to their shrunken, pre-boiled state? > Its not that they remember their size, it is just that they will get back to the original tolerances. I imagine if you live someplace where the humidity is 90+% all the time you won't have the shrinking issue at all. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com Tue Mar 22 11:38:44 2016 From: dpi at dustyoldcomputers.com (Doug Ingraham) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:38:44 -0600 Subject: Restoring Nylon parts (like the card guides in a PDP-8a chassis) In-Reply-To: <56F085AD.5040501@sydex.com> References: <56F082E0.3070103@gmail.com> <56F085AD.5040501@sydex.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 21, 2016 at 5:37 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > Interesting. If water evaporation accounts for the dimensional > instability, why not use something that doesn't evaporate quite as easily? > Say, ethylene glycol or a silicon oil? I had this idea as well but I have not experimented with it. I doubt that it will work but I would love to hear differently. So give it a shot on some broken nylon bits. -- Doug Ingraham PDP-8 SN 1175 From ben at bensinclair.com Tue Mar 22 12:12:40 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:12:40 -0500 Subject: Anyone want some Polymorphic 88 manuals and disks? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm actually not sure how they are sectored, but I assume my Poly 8813 had whatever controller most other Polys had. I'm not looking for anything, I just wanted them to go to a good home! On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 11:33 AM, dwight wrote: > Hi Ben > I have the manual but would be interested in the disk. > Do you know if they are hard or soft sectored? > I suspect they are hard sectored as that was the most common. > There soft sectored was not industry standard and took a special > controller to read. > What are you looking for? > Dwight > > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Ben Sinclair < > ben at bensinclair.com> > Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 8:38 AM > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Anyone want some Polymorphic 88 manuals and disks? > > I had a Poly 8813, and just found that I still have the System 88 User's > Manual, including the Macro 88 manual, schematics, and 16K RAM > manual/schematics. > > I also have some disks that came with the system, though their status is > unknown. I believe many of them were just blank, but there is some system > software and a general ledger program disk. > > Anyone want these? The manuals seem to be readily available online already. > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 12:53:48 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:53:48 -0700 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: References: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 12:29 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: > >>> Good news - mine worked so fingers crossed for yours too. I now have a > >> functioning PSU again though I've not tried it back in the chassis > yet... > >> > >> Nice! My replacements arrived today and unfortunately I did not have > > such good luck. No smoke or fire, but now I get nothing at all out of > the > > supply. The whine is gone, but there's nothing output at all. The > > fuse/resistor didn't blow (it's still got continuity across it) and the > > transistor I replaced is still fine, but there must be something else in > > the supply that's causing issues... > > > > Blargh. I hate working on power supplies. > > > In this case you have an excellent technical manual and a good schematic > which should help a lot. Working with big SMPSU without schematics or > technical manuals is a not fun. > Yeah, I have actual original copies of the printsets, too. I have no excuse, I just get nervous working on these things. I suppose eventually I'll get used to it. > > So here is my piece of advice directly from my head. > > 1. The PSU has really two AC inputs wired together in the input harness. > You can separate the startup supply part from the SMPSU part. Connect the > startup PSU to a separate AC input and the SMPSU part to a insulation > transformer, a variac and lightbulb in series. 2. Check that the startup PSU, that uses a normal 50/60 Hz transformer > gives the correct voltage. +11 if I remember correctly. > 3. There is a circuit that monitors the input rectified 300VDC voltage and > enables the relay when it has reached a proper voltage. It is a soft start. > Disable it for temporarily. Good idea to check that is working though. If > not the soft start resistors will become overheated when trying to run it > at full load. > The relay (and the circuit driving it) appears to be working -- I hear it click on at power-up (faintly, over the roar of the fans) and click again after power-down. I'll hopefully have some time this week to play around some more, thanks for the suggestions! I'll note that my earlier statement that I was getting "nothing" out of the supply turns out to be slightly inaccurate -- with a load, I get nothing (well, 0.07v) out of the 5V supply; without a load the voltage slowly increases (maybe 0.5V per second). Didn't let it run long enough to see where it ends up ;). Thanks again, Josh > 4. Now you need to have the SMPSU section connected to AC inlet. On one of > the daughter boards there is a switching bias supply. Check that it > generates the +/-12 V and +5V. > 5. Is the main SMPSU switching logic making a nice square wave signal > output. The control board is yet another daughter board. > 6. I disconnected the output terminals from the H-bridge to the transformer > and connected a dummy load to be able to have a look at the output > waveform. > 7. Reconnect the transformer. The main switch produces +5V and +38V. The > 38V is then used on the daughterboards to create all the other voltages, > +/- 12V, +/- 15V, +12V SB, +5VSB (depending on which supply). Is there 38V > here? > 8. There is a crowbar circuit on the +5V output terminals. Check that it is > not tripping. > > > Please note that when working with the +2.5V supply it gets the bias > voltages from the +5V supply. So either get that one working first or > supply bias voltage from a regular PC supply. > > /Mattis > > > > > > > > - Josh > > > > > From roland.schregle at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 07:29:46 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:29:46 +0100 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 12:29:18 +0100, Peter Coghlan wrote: > You also need to be a member of a user group such as DECUS > or Interex or whatever it is called this week. Some of these have > membership > fees but as far as I know, there is at least one international group that > anyone can join for free. I'd be interested in joining -- anyone have info on the international group? --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com Tue Mar 22 07:45:38 2016 From: johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com (John H. Reinhardt) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 08:45:38 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> On 3/22/2016 7:29 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: >> >> Anyone have the multinet 4.1 PAK checksum and install key info? I need to >> re-install my PAK and I don't have *doh!* the checksum value. I thought I >> did but...nope. >> > > You can get a Multinet hobbyist license from Process software if you first get > a VMS hobbyist license from HP. Both are free of charge and entail a small > amount of form filling on websites. The main snag is the licenses need to be > renewed each year. You also need to be a member of a user group such as DECUS > or Interex or whatever it is called this week. Some of these have membership > fees but as far as I know, there is at least one international group that > anyone can join for free. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > Anyone can also get a free membership at Encompasserve by ssh to eisner.decus.org and creating an account. N O T I C E This is Encompasserve. Access is for subscribed individuals only. o By logging into the system you agree to abide by the Encompasserve Canons of Conduct. o Source code or any other information posted on this system is not warranted in any way. YOU USE IT AT YOUR OWN RISK. o If you submit source code to or post information on this system, you must allow its unrestricted use. You must have the right to grant such permission. o Refer to the Encompasserve Canons of Conduct, posted in the DECUServe_Information conference topic 4.3, for further guidance. o Report problems in DECUServe_Forum. o Please $Support$ DECUServe. See DECUServe_Forum Topic 776 for how to contribute. For information about Encompasserve please login under -> Username INFORMATION To subscribe to Encompasserve please login under -> Username REGISTRATION To report any form of a problem please login under -> Username PROBLEMS To renew an Expired account please login under -> Username REGISTRATION From roland.schregle at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 07:52:26 2016 From: roland.schregle at gmail.com (Dr. Roland Schregle) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:52:26 +0100 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:45:38 +0100, John H. Reinhardt wrote: > Anyone can also get a free membership at Encompasserve by ssh to > eisner.decus.org and creating an account. Good to know -- many thanks, Peter! Most of the ones I tried were long defunct. --GT -- "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] From spedraja at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 08:15:49 2016 From: spedraja at gmail.com (SPC) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 14:15:49 +0100 Subject: Andrew S.Grove 1936-2016 Message-ID: https://newsroom.intel.com/news-releases/andrew-s-grove-1936-2016/?utm_content=buffer5c774&utm_medium=social&utm_source=linkedin.com&utm_campaign=buffer Gracias | Regards - Saludos | Greetings | Freundliche Gr??e | Salutations ? -- *Sergio Pedraja* -- twitter: @sergio_pedraja | skype: Sergio Pedraja -- http://plus.google.com/u/0/101292256663392735405 http://www.linkedin.com/in/sergiopedraja ----- No crea todo lo que ve, ni crea que est? vi?ndolo todo From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 09:50:21 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 10:50:21 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Dr. Roland Schregle < roland.schregle at gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:45:38 +0100, John H. Reinhardt < > johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com> wrote: > > > Anyone can also get a free membership at Encompasserve by ssh to >> eisner.decus.org and creating an account. >> > > Good to know -- many thanks, Peter! Most of the ones I tried were long > defunct. > > > --GT > > > -- > "END OF LINE" [MCP, 1982] > "... nowhere in the standards is it specified that 'programs that use a > lot of memory may randomly crash at any time for no apparent reason'" > [Stackoverflow forum, 2012] > thanks all. -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 22 14:47:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 15:47:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) Message-ID: <20160322194726.75A4F18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Josh Dersch > I have no excuse, I just get nervous working on these things. I should hope you do get nervous! Anytime one is working around equipment that contains lethal voltages, one _should_ be nervous! It helps with... > I suppose eventually I'll get used to it. Don't get too used to it, one wants to always be aware and cautious! (I myself am missing half a nail - and I'm lucky that's all that's missing - because I got too "used to" working with my table saw...) Noel From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 16:07:50 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 17:07:50 -0400 Subject: Andy Grove dies Message-ID: Andrew Grove, co-founder of INTEL, passed away.Truly a giant of our industry. He made possible, or promoted, the brains and memory chips that drive our machines, old and new. From drlegendre at gmail.com Tue Mar 22 22:56:46 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 22:56:46 -0500 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <840AD0E73F4043D99A17D4A17A39052D@Vincew7> References: <56EB63CB.4070406@gmail.com> <840AD0E73F4043D99A17D4A17A39052D@Vincew7> Message-ID: Vincent & All, Yes, I read that the series conforms to that particular UL fusing requirement. My point was that I didn't see any promotion of or expansion on the fusing qualities of the design. The UL spec almost seemed like an afterthought. But then, I am not an engineer - so not used to parsing these documents to such a level. But you comment on fire prevention is duly noted. As the saying goes, "the transformer fails open to save the fuse" ;-) As for a resistor + fuse in series, I suspect you'd want to spec the fuse for allowable currents - and then spec the resistor to withstand any current in that range. Point being, you only +need+ one 'weak link' in the design. Thoughts? On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:20 AM, Vincent Slyngstad < v.slyngstad at frontier.com> wrote: > From: drlegendre: Monday, March 21, 2016 6:50 PM > >> I don't quite get what makes this DigiKey part suitable for the role of a >> fused resistor. I do see that it has specs for 'fusing behavior' but that >> aside, I don't see that this series is marketed / sold as a "fusible >> resistor". >> > > I take "UL1412 recognised fusing" (sic) on the first line of the data sheet > to mean that they do market them that way. > > One reason I question it, is the fact that the fusing ratings are only >> plotted for like 40X or 50X expected current. Can the circuit under >> protection be relied upon to produce those levels of current, even under >> hard-fault conditions? >> > > I read a little over 1000 seconds to fuse at 10W, which is only a few > times the 2W rating. Admittedly, 20 minutes at 5X load amounts to a pretty > slow fuse. I can only assume their concern is fire prevention, rather than > circuitry protection. > > With regard to the suggestion of a fuse and a resistor, you'd need more > room (likely not a problem), and a flameproof version of the resistor. I > don't know anything about UL ratings, so I don't know if that could be made > OK there or not. > > Vince From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Mar 22 22:24:29 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 20:24:29 -0700 Subject: Looking for I/O specs HP 9000/236 - 9836CU Message-ID: I just acquired one of the guys w/o a display Looking for the spec's of the display connector. I have what I believe to be the pinout but nothing on timing, scan rates, levels etc. Other identification on the thing is "1 MB Board internal set as 1st Card" Upgraded to 9836CU NO BATT / DOES NOT START / BOOT ? Model ID tag 9836C / 2210A01010 -pete From mattislind at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 03:40:56 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:40:56 +0100 Subject: Resistor/Fuse replacement (DEC H7104-D) In-Reply-To: <20160322194726.75A4F18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160322194726.75A4F18C0DE@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: 2016-03-22 20:47 GMT+01:00 Noel Chiappa : > > From: Josh Dersch > > > I have no excuse, I just get nervous working on these things. > > I should hope you do get nervous! Anytime one is working around equipment > that > contains lethal voltages, one _should_ be nervous! It helps with... > Don't work with lethal voltages! Use a insulation transformer. Then it is not as likely to kill you unless you brake the rule and put both your hands in the supply. Then use a variac. My experience is that you can observe the behaviour at a much lower voltage when the load is small. This supply if I remember correctly will work fine from 60 VDC at the input caps. I do this all the time. I am not nervous when putting the scope-probe on anything in there. One more thing regarding the H7104. The circuit that enables the relay will also enable the signal to the main chopper transistors. Thus there will be no switching at all unless the input voltage is above 250VDC or so. I disabled this circuit for testing purposes. As long as the load is small this should not cause any problems. (And since I tested I know it didn't) > > > I suppose eventually I'll get used to it. > > Don't get too used to it, one wants to always be aware and cautious! > > (I myself am missing half a nail - and I'm lucky that's all that's missing > - > because I got too "used to" working with my table saw...) > > Noel > /Mattis From hp-fix at xs4all.nl Wed Mar 23 05:14:22 2016 From: hp-fix at xs4all.nl (Rik Bos) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 11:14:22 +0100 Subject: Looking for I/O specs HP 9000/236 - 9836CU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <001e01d184ec$c5c22b80$51468280$@xs4all.nl> > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] Namens Pete Lancashire > Verzonden: woensdag 23 maart 2016 4:24 > Aan: General > Onderwerp: Looking for I/O specs HP 9000/236 - 9836CU > > I just acquired one of the guys w/o a display > > Looking for the spec's of the display connector. > > I have what I believe to be the pinout but nothing on timing, scan rates, levels > etc. > > Other identification on the thing is > > "1 MB Board internal set as 1st Card" > > Upgraded to 9836CU > > NO BATT / DOES NOT START / BOOT ? > > Model ID tag 9836C / 2210A01010 > > -pete Pete, Tony, reverse engineered the HP 9836C (and a lot of other HP equipment) he made the diagrams available through the HPCC. It's part from a great collection of HP diagrams including calculators computers and peripherals etc.. http://www.hpcc.org/cdroms/index.html -Rik From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 08:08:10 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:08:10 +0000 Subject: Looking for I/O specs HP 9000/236 - 9836CU In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > I just acquired one of the guys w/o a display > > Looking for the spec's of the display connector. > > I have what I believe to be the pinout but nothing on timing, scan rates, > levels etc. If it is a CU -- that is it has a colour video board set in it -- then it is a bit strange. There are a pair of TTL level syncs, I can't remember the frequencies but something tells me it's close to TV. It's also easy to measure with a frequency counter. The 3 colour signals are analogue current sinks on the machine, not voltage level outputs. No normal monitor will connect directly. You need a bit of analogue electronics to sort it out. > Other identification on the thing is > > "1 MB Board internal set as 1st Card" This may mean somebody has fitted a 1M RAM card into the normally unused internal slot and that it is set for the top of memory (which would be logical). You need to take off the cover (the 4 largest screws on the bottom, behind the keyboard area) and see just what is in there. > Upgraded to 9836CU Probably the CPU board was replaced by the 68010/MMU one. > NO BATT / DOES NOT START / BOOT ? May mean it doesn't have the battery backup option (I've never seen it) and that there is some other fault too... -tony From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Wed Mar 23 08:13:14 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 13:13:14 +0000 Subject: Looking for I/O specs HP 9000/236 - 9836CU In-Reply-To: <001e01d184ec$c5c22b80$51468280$@xs4all.nl> References: , <001e01d184ec$c5c22b80$51468280$@xs4all.nl> Message-ID: > Tony, reverse engineered the HP 9836C (and a lot of other HP equipment) he > made the diagrams available through the HPCC. > It's part from a great collection of HP diagrams including calculators computers > and peripherals etc.. http://www.hpcc.org/cdroms/index.html It was decided by the HPCC committee to no longer send out physical CD-ROMs for this. Instead members (only) can download the latest version free of charge. A year's membership of HPCC is not much more than the only cost of the CD-ROM, and you have the other benefits of HPCC. The HP9826/36 schematics can be downloaded from the Australian HP museum, http://www.hpmuseum.net/ They are under the HP9826, there is so much in common between the machines that I produced one set of diagrams for both. I did the 3 machines I have, a 9826, a 9836A and a 9836CU. Yes, I did include monitors, etc. -tony From Corey.Cohen at ca.com Wed Mar 23 09:03:27 2016 From: Corey.Cohen at ca.com (Cohen, Corey A) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 14:03:27 +0000 Subject: TI Silent 743/745 question. Message-ID: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> I'm trying to troubleshoot a TI silent 743/745. When you press the "rubout" key should it print anything like an underscore? Besides sending the rubout character, what does the actual print head do? Backup? Print an underscore? Thanks, Corey corey cohen u??o? ???o? Mobile: +1 917 747 1408 From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 23 09:25:50 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:25:50 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 743/745 question. In-Reply-To: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> References: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> Message-ID: <20160323142550.GY4440@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 02:03PM +0000), Cohen, Corey A wrote: > I'm trying to troubleshoot a TI silent 743/745. When you press the "rubout" key should it print anything like an underscore? Besides sending the rubout character, what does the actual print head do? Backup? Print an underscore? I get nothing printed when pressing RUBOUT. With the unit in off-line mode and in half- or full-duplex, characters typed are printed. RUBOUT prints nothing. With the unit in on-line mode and half-duplex, chraracters typed are printed and RUBOUT prints nothing. In full-duplex, nothing prints unless the far end echos it back. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 23 09:37:03 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 09:37:03 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 743/745 question. In-Reply-To: <20160323142550.GY4440@n0jcf.net> References: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> <20160323142550.GY4440@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20160323143703.GZ4440@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 09:25AM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 02:03PM +0000), Cohen, Corey A wrote: > > I'm trying to troubleshoot a TI silent 743/745. When you press the "rubout" key should it print anything like an underscore? Besides sending the rubout character, what does the actual print head do? Backup? Print an underscore? > > I get nothing printed when pressing RUBOUT. > > With the unit in off-line mode and in half- or full-duplex, characters > typed are printed. RUBOUT prints nothing. > > With the unit in on-line mode and half-duplex, chraracters typed are > printed and RUBOUT prints nothing. In full-duplex, nothing prints unless > the far end echos it back. I should have elaborated a little on what you might be seeing. If something does print when you hit RUBOUT and you are on-line and in half- or full-duplex, it is possible that the far end, whatever host you are connected to, is echoing something back in response to the RUBOUT. The terminal sends ASCII 0x7F when you press RUBOUT. This is a non-printing character locally but the remote system can send back whatever it likes in response to receiving that 0x7F. Chris -- Chris Elmquist From billdegnan at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 11:57:02 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 12:57:02 -0400 Subject: TI Silent 743/745 question. In-Reply-To: <20160323143703.GZ4440@n0jcf.net> References: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> <20160323142550.GY4440@n0jcf.net> <20160323143703.GZ4440@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:37 AM, Chris Elmquist wrote: > On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 09:25AM -0500), Chris Elmquist wrote: > > On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 02:03PM +0000), Cohen, Corey A wrote: > > > I'm trying to troubleshoot a TI silent 743/745. When you press the > "rubout" key should it print anything like an underscore? Besides sending > the rubout character, what does the actual print head do? Backup? Print an > underscore? > > > > I get nothing printed when pressing RUBOUT. > > > > With the unit in off-line mode and in half- or full-duplex, characters > > typed are printed. RUBOUT prints nothing. > > > > With the unit in on-line mode and half-duplex, chraracters typed are > > printed and RUBOUT prints nothing. In full-duplex, nothing prints unless > > the far end echos it back. > > I should have elaborated a little on what you might be seeing. > If something does print when you hit RUBOUT and you are on-line and in > half- or full-duplex, it is possible that the far end, whatever host > you are connected to, is echoing something back in response to the RUBOUT. > > The terminal sends ASCII 0x7F when you press RUBOUT. This is a > non-printing > character locally but the remote system can send back whatever it likes > in response to receiving that 0x7F. > > Chris > -- > Chris Elmquist > > What happens when you're in 20 mA mode? That's what it's for, not serial comms unless it's mapped specially. i.e. it's for emulating a teletype. right? -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From chrise at pobox.com Wed Mar 23 15:51:41 2016 From: chrise at pobox.com (Chris Elmquist) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:51:41 -0500 Subject: TI Silent 743/745 question. In-Reply-To: References: <0E2C0F59-5675-433B-A5CF-5132C3414040@ca.com> <20160323142550.GY4440@n0jcf.net> <20160323143703.GZ4440@n0jcf.net> Message-ID: <20160323205141.GH4440@n0jcf.net> On Wednesday (03/23/2016 at 12:57PM -0400), william degnan wrote: > > > > The terminal sends ASCII 0x7F when you press RUBOUT. This is a > > non-printing > > character locally but the remote system can send back whatever it likes > > in response to receiving that 0x7F. > > > What happens when you're in 20 mA mode? That's what it's for, not serial > comms unless it's mapped specially. i.e. it's for emulating a teletype. > right? Both of my units are 745 with EIA interface, internal acoustic coupler and no 20mA. But checking the manual, I don't see any way that you choose "20mA mode". It's not a switch or input to the processor that might change the firmware behavior. So I don't think what gets sent on 20mA would be different than what gets sent on EIA when you press RUBOUT... A lot of systems in that era used RUBOUT like a backspace operator. If the terminal sent RUBOUT, the host/OS would interpret that as a delete character operation and then echo back a backspace, maybe an X, then accept the new input character. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delete_character Chris -- Chris Elmquist From sellam at vintagetech.com Wed Mar 23 17:28:31 2016 From: sellam at vintagetech.com (Sellam Abraham) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 15:28:31 -0700 (PDT) Subject: FS: Fulcrum IMSAI 8080 clone system Message-ID: I'm selling this interesting off-shoot of IMSAI history. It's a Fulcrum Data Systems IMSAI 8080 clone in turnkey configuration. Fulcrum was started by Bruce Wright of WW Component Supply, who competed with Tom Fischer to buy remaining inventory at the IMSAI bankruptcy sale in the early 1980s. Fulcrum was eventually sued and had to cease and desist but not before a few of these systems were sold. Photos and more information are located here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/S-100/Fulcrum/ It powers up but I haven't tested the logic. The bus power is fused and I don't have the fuse caps right now. I can probably round some up with a little scrounging. Otherwise I tested all the voltages coming off of the power supply and they are good. I'm asking $1,200 for the complete system (CPU + dual drive unit) but I'm willing to entertain offers. Please inquire directly via private e-mail. You might also want to check out the other stuff I have for sale by starting here: http://vintagetech.com/sales/ Thanks! -- Sellam Abraham VintageTech ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ International Man of Intrigue and Danger http://www.vintagetech.com Whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. The truth is always simple. * * * NOTICE * * * Due to the insecure nature of the medium over which this message has been transmitted, no statement made in this writing may be considered reliable for any purpose either express or implied. The contents of this message are appropriate for entertainment and/or informational purposes only. The right of the people to be secure in their papers against unreasonable searches and seizures shall not be violated. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Wed Mar 23 18:37:57 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 23:37:57 -0000 Subject: Opening up PSU for Olivetti M24 Message-ID: <021001d1855d$0804a570$180df050$@ntlworld.com> I have just acquired an Olivetti M24. I want to inspect the PSU and I have removed it from the machine. But I am struggling to remove the only seemingly removable panel. This is the one with the mains socket and the on/off switch on it. It looks as if it might be hinged at the bottom, but it won't pivot out or come away. Does anyone know how to get inside this PSU? Thanks Rob From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Wed Mar 23 21:21:37 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 02:21:37 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 panels Message-ID: <56F34F31.6060303@btinternet.com> Hello Guys. To say I'm pleased with the comments on the batch just shipped would be an understatement. However you cant just rest on your laurels. _Batch now in production_ The next batch is already underway and the quantity increased to thirty, It will consist of 8/e (A and B), 8/f and 8/m .All the artwork is done and ready I'm trying to get to a ship from stock situation but I keep getting pre-orders (not that I mind!!) _The PDP-8 Product Line So Far_ PDP-8/e (A) before the switch change PDP-8/e (B) after the switch change PDP-8/f PDP-8/m We also offer to change the address from the standard maynard to galway. If you find any other address variations I'd be interested.to consider them as well. _PDP-8 New Products under consideration _ 1. Front panels for any of the other PDP-8 models, Including the Straight 8 but excluding PDP-8A. 2. Bezels either cast metal as existing or a tough plastic. The metal ones are big and heavy and awkward to ship. 3. Programmers Console PCB (key and lamp unit) / emulator 4. Integrated version of 1 + 2 above 5. Integrated version of 1 + 2 + 3 above _ __PDP-11 Product Line_ 1. Artwork underway for 11/XX panels (11/70 style) 2. No launch date yet but not a long way off. _DEC unlisted above or non CPU panels._ I'll look at anything DEC made that uses a flat substrate (Plastic, Metal or Glass) and has screen printing _Non DEC panels _ I'd be intersted in panels from other makers using similar substrates and screen printing. I think thats the lot Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood _ _ From derschjo at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 23:21:37 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:21:37 -0700 Subject: DEC H7104-D debugging... In-Reply-To: References: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F36B51.3070607@gmail.com> On 3/22/16 12:29 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> such good luck. No smoke or fire, but now I get nothing at all out of the >> supply. The whine is gone, but there's nothing output at all. The >> fuse/resistor didn't blow (it's still got continuity across it) and the >> transistor I replaced is still fine, but there must be something else in >> the supply that's causing issues... >> >> Blargh. I hate working on power supplies. > > In this case you have an excellent technical manual and a good schematic > which should help a lot. Working with big SMPSU without schematics or > technical manuals is a not fun. > > So here is my piece of advice directly from my head. > > 1. The PSU has really two AC inputs wired together in the input harness. > You can separate the startup supply part from the SMPSU part. Connect the > startup PSU to a separate AC input and the SMPSU part to a insulation > transformer, a variac and lightbulb in series. > 2. Check that the startup PSU, that uses a normal 50/60 Hz transformer > gives the correct voltage. +11 if I remember correctly. > 3. There is a circuit that monitors the input rectified 300VDC voltage and > enables the relay when it has reached a proper voltage. It is a soft start. > Disable it for temporarily. Good idea to check that is working though. If > not the soft start resistors will become overheated when trying to run it > at full load. > 4. Now you need to have the SMPSU section connected to AC inlet. On one of > the daughter boards there is a switching bias supply. Check that it > generates the +/-12 V and +5V. > 5. Is the main SMPSU switching logic making a nice square wave signal > output. The control board is yet another daughter board. > 6. I disconnected the output terminals from the H-bridge to the transformer > and connected a dummy load to be able to have a look at the output waveform. > 7. Reconnect the transformer. The main switch produces +5V and +38V. The > 38V is then used on the daughterboards to create all the other voltages, > +/- 12V, +/- 15V, +12V SB, +5VSB (depending on which supply). Is there 38V > here? > 8. There is a crowbar circuit on the +5V output terminals. Check that it is > not tripping. > > > Please note that when working with the +2.5V supply it gets the bias > voltages from the +5V supply. So either get that one working first or > supply bias voltage from a regular PC supply. > > /Mattis So I had a few minutes tonight to investigate a few things: - The startup PSU is running, and the relay in the 5V supply is firing and stays energized until the supply is powered off. - The +5V, and +/-12V bias voltages are being properly generated. This makes sense, since the 2.5V supply is working fine. From my understanding of the supply, this means the 300VDC is also present (also validated by the relay firing.) - The 20Khz clock generated on the bias board is present (measured from pin 8 of J1 on on the bias board), at the proper rate and duty cycle. - 5V AC and DC LO signals (measured at J1) are .3 and .9V, respectively. So far, so good. I also measured the 5V Overcurrent and 5V Crowbar on J1 (pins 2 and 19) and they're at 12V and 8V respectively. I'm not sure I understand what this indicates; the Overcurrent lamp is not illuminated on the power controller, for example, and per the tech manual (section 4.4.2) if an overvoltage occurs and the crowbar kicks in, the supply should shut down for ~1 second, which I'm not seeing any indications of (I'm not seeing the voltage reach anything over .2V with a small load attached). The overcurrent protection appears to work similarly. I don't see an indication of what the levels for the signals on J1 are supposed to be, however. I'll hopefully have more time to debug later this week, thought I'd report my findings and see if anyone has any bright ideas. Thanks as always, - Josh From michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com Wed Mar 23 18:00:25 2016 From: michael.roy.barnes at gmail.com (Mike Barnes) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 19:00:25 -0400 Subject: Reproduction 8/e panel from Rod Smallwood In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Fri, Mar 18, 2016 at 8:00 AM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > I received my reproduction 8/e panel from Rod Smallwood (aka "panelman") > this week. It looks spectacular compared to the peeling paint on the > original. Rod did not drill the hole for the rotary switch because the > position varies a little depending on the revision of the switch panel. I > put the original panel on top of the new one, marked the rotary switch > location, drilled a pilot hole and successively larger holes. I had to > adjust the position of the AC power switch a little to optimize the > clearance around the switches, but that was easy. > > The original panel had rubber bumpers between the panel and the front of > the chassis that I will attach to the new panel with double sided adhesive > tape. The original panel had a tapered relief at the back of the hole for > the AC power switch, but the new one does not. I will use a file or Dremel > tool to remove some of the panel material. Without the relief the panel > will get stressed near the AC switch. > > Overall, the workmanship on the panel is spectacular. Now I need to repaint > the 8/e front panel frame, RX01, RK05, and TU56 so they look as nice as the > new front panel. > > -- > Michael Thompson > I concur. Mine arrived this week and it's more of a work of art than a computer panel. Absolutely stunning. Kudos to Rod and his professional silk screeners for making this available. Mike From supervinx at libero.it Thu Mar 24 02:19:26 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 08:19:26 +0100 Subject: R: Opening up PSU for Olivetti M24 Message-ID: Can't check it now... have you looked under the feet on the bottom? Olivetti used to hide screws right there.. From silent700 at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:01:58 2016 From: silent700 at gmail.com (Jason T) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 03:01:58 -0500 Subject: Motorola's Punched-Card Reader Message-ID: I don't know their history as regards computing before the 1980s but Motorola seems to have had a brief flirtation with data processing in the form of their MDR-1000 mark-sense and punched-card reader, a brochure for which I scanned tonight: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Motorola The original had been damaged by mildew and staining, which I tried to clean up a bit without sacrificing the graphics on the covers, but the inside fared much better. If you're like me, you'll enjoy some juicy shots of telco datacomm equipment, too. I know HP made a similar desktop device but I don't believe this is a rebadge of any other company's product. Or is it? As always, feel free to add to your collections, etc. -j From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:08:32 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan R) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 16:08:32 +0800 Subject: The Fourth International Conference on Digital Information Processing, E-Business and Cloud Computing (DIPECC2016) Message-ID: You are invited to participate in The Fourth International Conference on Digital Information Processing, E-Business and Cloud Computing (DIPECC2016) that will be held in Asia Pacific University of Technology and Innovation (APU), Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia, on September 6-8, 2016 as part of The Fifth World Congress on Computing, Engineering and Technology (WCCET). The event will be held over three days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the international community, including presentations from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art lectures. September 6-8, 2016 ? Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia Asia Pacific University of Technology and Innovation (APU) Website: http://sdiwc.net/conferences/dipecc2016/ ================ *IMPORTANT DATES* Submission Dates Open from now until August 6, 2016 Notification of Acceptance August 20, 2016 or 4 weeks from the submission date Camera Ready Submission Open from now until August 26, 2016 Registration Deadline Open from now until August 26, 2016 Conference Dates September 6-8, 2016 The submission is open until August 6, 2016. Please consider submitting your papers to DIPECC2016. SUBMISSION LINK: http://sdiwc.net/conferences/dipecc2016/openconf/openconf.php EMAIL: dipecc16 at sdiwc.net From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 03:08:57 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan R) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 16:08:57 +0800 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) Message-ID: You are invited to participate in *The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) *that will be held at the Takamatsu Sunport Hall Building, Takamatsu, Japan on November 14-16, 2016. The event will be held over three days, with presentations delivered by researchers from the international community, including presentations from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art lectures. *Nov. 14-16, 2016* *Kagawa University, Takamatsu, Japan* Submission Deadline Open from now until Sept. 14, 2016 Notification of Acceptance 4-7 weeks from the Submission Date Camera Ready Submission Oct. 14, 2016 Registration Deadline Oct. 14, 2016 Conference Dates Nov. 14-16, 2016 All registered papers will be published in SDIWC Digital Library and in the proceedings of the conference. The conference welcome papers on the following (but not limited to) research topics: Please check here: http://sdiwc.net/conferences/second-international-conference-on-electronics-and-software-science Contact email: icess16 at sdiwc.net From lawrence at intheforest.plus.com Thu Mar 24 03:59:50 2016 From: lawrence at intheforest.plus.com (Lawrence Woodman) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 08:59:50 +0000 Subject: Connecting a Cambridge Z88 to the Internet In-Reply-To: <56EEF9FF.5030009@gmail.com> References: <56EEF9FF.5030009@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F3AC86.5070307@intheforest.plus.com> On 20/03/16 19:29, Jules Richardson wrote: > On 03/18/2016 09:04 AM, Liam Proven wrote: >> I've been asked about doing this for an exhibition. >> >>> From some cursory Googling, it seems that the Z88 has a terminal >> emulator, and equipped with a suitable serial cable, you could just >> run a cable to a host device with an Internet connection and have a >> text-only terminal session fairly readily. >> >> Not much more than that, though. >> >> Has anyone on CC done this? > > Not with a Z88, but I have done this with my Tandy 102, just for the > heck of it. I believe the displays of the two machines are similar in > size, and at least with the Tandy it was quite painful - it works, but > not being able to see more than 8 lines of text at a time gets > irritating quite fast. One of the nice things with the Z88 is that while you do only have 8 lines you get double the character width of the Tandy 102 at 80 characters. bfn Law From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 24 05:18:38 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:18:38 +0000 (WET) Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Thu, 24 Mar 2016 16:08:57 +0800" Message-ID: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> > > You are invited to participate in *The Second International Conference on > Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) > > *that > will be held at the Takamatsu Sunport Hall Building, Takamatsu, Japan on > November 14-16, 2016. The event will be held over three days, with > presentations delivered by researchers from the international community, > including presentations from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art lectures. > What has this (or the other similar advertisement) got to do with classic computers? Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mattislind at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 05:25:47 2016 From: mattislind at gmail.com (Mattis Lind) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:25:47 +0100 Subject: DEC H7104-D debugging... In-Reply-To: <56F36B51.3070607@gmail.com> References: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> <56F36B51.3070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: > So I had a few minutes tonight to investigate a few things: > > - The startup PSU is running, and the relay in the 5V supply is firing and > stays energized until the supply is powered off. > - The +5V, and +/-12V bias voltages are being properly generated. This > makes sense, since the 2.5V supply is working fine. From my understanding > of the supply, this means the 300VDC is also present (also validated by the > relay firing.) > - The 20Khz clock generated on the bias board is present (measured from > pin 8 of J1 on on the bias board), at the proper rate and duty cycle. > - 5V AC and DC LO signals (measured at J1) are .3 and .9V, respectively. > Then a lot things seems to be working. Is the main chopper transistor driven? First check that you have a signal on the primary side of the pulse transformer T2 on the mother board? Driven through B22 / B24 from the control board. Q6 collector. If not then check backwards towards the NE556, Q6 and Q15. E9 pin 9 and pin 5. E8 pin 3. These outputs are OR:ed together via diodes and drive Q15 base. If yes then you need to investigate the secondary side of the pulse transformer T2 on the mother board. (Now it is getting dangerous if you are not careful). Is there base drive on the power transistors? > > So far, so good. I also measured the 5V Overcurrent and 5V Crowbar on J1 > (pins 2 and 19) and they're at 12V and 8V respectively. I'm not sure I > understand what this indicates; the Overcurrent lamp is not illuminated on > the power controller, for example, and per the tech manual (section 4.4.2) > if an overvoltage occurs and the crowbar kicks in, the supply should shut > down for ~1 second, which I'm not seeing any indications of (I'm not seeing > the voltage reach anything over .2V with a small load attached). The > overcurrent protection appears to work similarly. I don't see an > indication of what the levels for the signals on J1 are supposed to be, > however. > The NE555 will trigger on a low going TRIG signal, so if either the CROWBAR SENSE (which is generated by a SCR that sinks this singal to ground when fired) OR the +5V OVERCURRENT goes low it will trigger. These signals are active low. I.e you don't have a over current or over voltage condition. > > I'll hopefully have more time to debug later this week, thought I'd report > my findings and see if anyone has any bright ideas. > Good luck! /Mattis > > Thanks as always, > - Josh > > From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 06:06:54 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan R) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 19:06:54 +0800 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hi Peter, My apology if you find this subject off for this group. The fact that the Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) talks about computer hardware, software, and documentation, the same objective as this group gears to, I took the opportunity to invite you, technical, computer experts to participate. We hope you will join us and will find us an exciting place to broaden your expertise. Praying this would clear things up. Again, sorry and my deep apology - please. Sincerely, Joan Conference Manager DIPECC2016 SDIWC On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 6:18 PM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > You are invited to participate in *The Second International Conference on > > Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) > > < > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/second-international-conference-on-electronics-and-software-science/ > > > > *that > > will be held at the Takamatsu Sunport Hall Building, Takamatsu, Japan on > > November 14-16, 2016. The event will be held over three days, with > > presentations delivered by researchers from the international community, > > including presentations from keynote speakers and state-of-the-art > lectures. > > > > What has this (or the other similar advertisement) got to do with classic > computers? > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From dstalk at execulink.com Wed Mar 23 20:44:37 2016 From: dstalk at execulink.com (Don Stalkowski) Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2016 21:44:37 -0400 (EDT) Subject: DEC PDP-16 books Message-ID: <20160324014437.AC058133A57@cel2.x> Hi, I was considering scanning "PDP-16 Computer Designer's Handbook" (1971, DEC) and "Designing Computers and Digital Systems" by Bell, Grason, and Newell (Digital Press, 1972) and have a couple of questions: 1. Are there already existing scans? 2. What is their copyright status? Don From phil at ultimate.com Thu Mar 24 09:36:44 2016 From: phil at ultimate.com (Phil Budne) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:36:44 -0400 Subject: DEC PDP-16 books In-Reply-To: <20160324014437.AC058133A57@cel2.x> References: <20160324014437.AC058133A57@cel2.x> Message-ID: <201603241436.u2OEaiKd083096@ultimate.com> > I was considering scanning "PDP-16 Computer Designer's Handbook" > (1971, DEC) and "Designing Computers and Digital Systems" by > Bell, Grason, and Newell (Digital Press, 1972) and have a couple > of questions: > > 1. Are there already existing scans? The second appears to be available at: http://research.microsoft.com/en-us/um/people/gbell/Designing_Computers_and_Digital_Systems/ (Gordon Bell's page) and http://archive.computerhistory.org/resources/text/DEC/pdp-16/dec.designing_computers_digital_systems_using_pdp-16_register_transfer_modules.1972.102630381.pdf From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 24 09:51:45 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:51:45 -0400 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a first name, as most likely a scam. If it were legitimate, the least one would expect is a real name on the announcement. The gmail address only reinforces that suspicion. paul > On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Joan R wrote: > > ... > Joan > Conference Manager From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Mar 24 09:58:21 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:58:21 -0400 Subject: Motorola's Punched-Card Reader Message-ID: <1a6962.1c51069.44255a8d@aol.com> does not look like the HP units we had..... another case is the motorola teleprinter see the photo of it on the teleprinter slide rule _www.smecc.org/motolola_government.htm_ (http://www.smecc.org/motolola_government.htm) this unit also appears in the Motorola 1961 annual report. Keep me in the look on this marksense card reader I want to know more Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/24/2016 1:02:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Motorola From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Thu Mar 24 10:01:47 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:01:47 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Random conferences [was Re: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016)] In-Reply-To: <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201603241501.LAA16186@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a first $ Both true, but, also, especially if you've been on the list where you saw the message for a while (if you got it via a list), I figure that if you haven't heard of the conference it's either a scam or a spam - and the appropriate reaction is much the same either way. Mouse From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Mar 24 10:01:36 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 12:01:36 -0300 Subject: help reading 9 track tape Message-ID: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> A student at the Physics Institute at the University of S?o Paulo (Brazil) reimplemented the Manchester DataFlow machine from the 1980s using modern FPGA technology. His goal is to evolve the project so it can be used for current applications. His advisor was at Manchester at the time of the project and brought a 9 track tape written on a PDP-11 which includes the Pascal sources for a compiler for the DataFlow machine. There is no equipment locally that can read the contents of this tape, but it would really help the student's project to have access to these sources. I imagine this stuff might be interesting for other people as well, so perhaps mailing the tape to someone on this list who can read it and put the content online would be the best option? -- Jecel From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 24 10:34:48 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:34:48 -0500 Subject: help reading 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> On 03/24/2016 10:01 AM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > A student at the Physics Institute at the University of S?o Paulo > (Brazil) reimplemented the Manchester DataFlow machine from the 1980s > using modern FPGA technology. His goal is to evolve the project so it > can be used for current applications. > > His advisor was at Manchester at the time of the project and brought a 9 > track tape written on a PDP-11 which includes the Pascal sources for a > compiler for the DataFlow machine. There is no equipment locally that > can read the contents of this tape, but it would really help the > student's project to have access to these sources. > > I imagine this stuff might be interesting for other people as well, so > perhaps mailing the tape to someone on this list who can read it and put > the content online would be the best option? > > -- Jecel > What density and format is this tape? Not all drives support all densities. Jon From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Thu Mar 24 10:39:25 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 11:39:25 -0400 Subject: Motorola's Punched-Card Reader Message-ID: <1a8fd3.66402b66.4425642d@aol.com> Ed at SMECC FOUND: In the Motorola annual report from 1967 CONTROL SYSTEMS DIVISION The division completed the best year in its six-year history. Orders increased 40% over the previous year. Additionally, two significant objectives were reached. The first was a move to achieve international stature in the process controls field. Early in the year, a sales and service organization was established in Puerto Rico to serve the mushrooming petro-chemical industry in that area. Also, early in 1968, the division established a fully owned subsidiary in England. The subsidiary, known as Motorola Control Systems, Ltd., will service the process control and information processing markets in the United Kingdom and the European Common Market. Second, through product innovation and sales penetration, the division took a giant step in achieving its primary goal ? placing Motorola firmly in the field of information processing. At the Fall joint computer conference in California, the division unveiled its MDR-1000 Document Reader, the first of a family of low-cost input terminals for information processing systems. The MDR-1000 provides a simple means for entering data into an electronic processing system directly from marked or punched cards and documents. This offers systems designers a new, low-cost method of getting raw data directly from the source, without need for skilled data processing equipment operators. The initial application of this "industry-first" is in processing daily operating information for one of the Bell Telephone systems. The immediate success of the MDR-1000 resulted in an expansion of this customer's program. Potential applications for the MDR-1000 in business, education, industry and government are virtually endless. The division's continuing success in marketing its three major product lines ? supervisory control systems, data systems and process controls systems ? increases its technical skills and disciplines in the related field of information processing. The primary skill involved is computer technology. In the area of process control instrumentation, for instance, the division received several petroleum refinery contracts to supply complete networks of field instruments, plus all related computer interface equipment. Three of these major contracts called for tying in with computers from three different computer manufacturers. Supervisory control system sales also gained impetus during the year. A large system was designed and installed for the Minnesota Power & Light Co., and other systems are under construction for the Getty Oil Co. and Marathon Pipeline Co. The sale of additional equipment for systems installed in previous years continued to increase during the year. This segment of the total sales picture is significant as engineering development costs were generally charged against the original sale. ok lets find one of these readers! sheet and card.... neat! Thanks Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/24/2016 1:02:25 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, silent700 at gmail.com writes: I don't know their history as regards computing before the 1980s but Motorola seems to have had a brief flirtation with data processing in the form of their MDR-1000 mark-sense and punched-card reader, a brochure for which I scanned tonight: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing/Motorola The original had been damaged by mildew and staining, which I tried to clean up a bit without sacrificing the graphics on the covers, but the inside fared much better. If you're like me, you'll enjoy some juicy shots of telco datacomm equipment, too. I know HP made a similar desktop device but I don't believe this is a rebadge of any other company's product. Or is it? As always, feel free to add to your collections, etc. -j From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 12:32:16 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan R) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 01:32:16 +0800 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hi Paul, Thanks for responding. I felt a little relief although the message is still clear that you find me something like a "scam". Please don't. I usually use this email icess16 at sdiwc.net to promote the conference but my apology for signing up via gmail. Lessons learned here. My wrong. Praying for forgiveness especially in this time of Easter. Happy Easter to you and all the members of this elite group. Sincerely, Joan Sali Conference Manager SDIWC - DIPECC2016 and ICESS2016 On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a > first name, as most likely a scam. If it were legitimate, the least one > would expect is a real name on the announcement. The gmail address only > reinforces that suspicion. > > paul > > > On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Joan R wrote: > > > > ... > > Joan > > Conference Manager > > From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 12:39:04 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan R) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 01:39:04 +0800 Subject: Random conferences [was Re: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016)] In-Reply-To: <201603241501.LAA16186@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> <201603241501.LAA16186@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: Hello there, Really appreciate the reply. Again, my apology for looking like a 'scam'. I'm not, please. Happy Easter to you and the rest of this elite group. Sincerely, Joan Sali Conference Manager SDIWC - DIPECC2016 and ICESS2016 On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 11:01 PM, Mouse wrote: > > As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a > first $ > > Both true, but, also, especially if you've been on the list where you > saw the message for a while (if you got it via a list), I figure that > if you haven't heard of the conference it's either a scam or a spam - > and the appropriate reaction is much the same either way. > > Mouse > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Thu Mar 24 15:32:00 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 20:32:00 -0000 Subject: Opening up PSU for Olivetti M24 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <028701d1860c$38153ae0$a83fb0a0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of supervinx > Sent: 24 March 2016 07:19 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: R: Opening up PSU for Olivetti M24 > > Can't check it now... have you looked under the feet on the bottom? Olivetti > used to hide screws right there.. I found the secret, it was a screw next to the one holding on an earth lead. With this screw removed the panel could be pivoted away. I have checked it over internally and all the electrolytics look fine and have a good ESR. Regards Rob From nico at farumdata.dk Thu Mar 24 16:32:26 2016 From: nico at farumdata.dk (Nico de Jong) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:32:26 +0100 Subject: help reading 9 track tape References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <022D796ED7C94129A69F31A3DBBCB195@notebook> ----- Oprindelig meddelelse ----- Fra: "Jon Elson" Til: ; "Discussion at classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" Sendt: 24. marts 2016 16:34 Emne: Re: help reading 9 track tape >> There is no equipment locally that >> can read the contents of this tape, but it would really help the >> student's project to have access to these sources. >> I can read all magtapes, as long as they are 9-tracki. 7-track went out of fashion in the mid 60's. I'm located in Denmark /Nico -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter. SPAMfighter has removed 3042 of my spam emails to date. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len Do you have a slow PC? Try a Free scan http://www.spamfighter.com/SLOW-PCfighter?cid=sigen From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 24 16:06:25 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:06:25 +0000 (WET) Subject: Random conferences [was Re: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016)] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Fri, 25 Mar 2016 01:39:04 +0800" References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> <201603241501.LAA16186@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01PY7AY6G9L200CQHR@beyondthepale.ie> > > Hello there, > Really appreciate the reply. > Again, my apology for looking like a 'scam'. I'm not, please. > Not a very convincing denial. > > Happy Easter to you and the rest of this elite group. > > Sincerely, > > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > Originally, I thought these ads were what a colleague of mine used to refer to as "academic spam". I haven't seen anything like it for many years. Almost brings back memories of the days before spam went mainstream when mailing lists devoted to academic topics were cluttered up with dozens of relatively harmless but highly irritating "invitations" to ghastly overhyped conferences. The more I look at these new examples, the more dubious they look. A collection of popular buzzwords and bleeding edge terminology, no specifics, no names of contributors, not even unrecognisable ones, an "invitation" addressed to nobody in particular, a few hundred dollars registration fee. It appears the main attractions are (unspecified) "researchers from the international community", "presentations from (unspecified) keynote speakers" and "state-of-the-art lectures", something I would want to be paid for if I was required to attend, not the other way around. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From rjlorenzen at q.com Thu Mar 24 16:40:52 2016 From: rjlorenzen at q.com (Richard Lorenzen) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 17:40:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: FS: DEC Rainbows, PRO 350s, VR201s, LK201s, etc. In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <2119961740.1099888.1458855652128.JavaMail.root@md15.quartz.synacor.com> I have decided to sell off my collection of the above on eBay. I need the money and space and don't want to move them. Just search for my user name, fortran00 (that's double-zero). I am starting with components and will move on to parts, complete systems, docs, software, etc. as I complete an inventory and testing. There are multiples of everything. Deals outside of eBay will be considered, but not for items actually up for auction, as this violates eBay rules. I have a larger discussion of what is available under the listing for Rainbow system units. Everything is tested before sale, but of course I can't guarantee future performance. Richard Lorenzen, fortran00, NA0L From jecel at merlintec.com Thu Mar 24 16:40:26 2016 From: jecel at merlintec.com (Jecel Assumpcao Jr.) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 18:40:26 -0300 Subject: help reading 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> Jon Elson wrote on Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:34:48 -0500: > What density and format is this tape? Not all drives > support all densities. I actually mentioned this detail to his advisor when they were discussing this topic after his student's defense, but I don't think he remembers this information. I am guessing that the tape was recorded around 1986, so any new density introduced after that (if there were any) can be ruled out. About the format, I have no idea. Back when I used such tapes myself (Burroughs 6700 in 1981) this kind of information would often be written on a label glued to the protective case. I haven't seen this particular tape, so I don't know if there are any hints there. -- Jecel From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 17:05:33 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:05:33 -0700 Subject: FS: DEC Rainbows, PRO 350s, VR201s, LK201s, etc. In-Reply-To: <2119961740.1099888.1458855652128.JavaMail.root@md15.quartz.synacor.com> References: <2119961740.1099888.1458855652128.JavaMail.root@md15.quartz.synacor.com> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 2:40 PM, Richard Lorenzen wrote: > I have decided to sell off my collection of the above on eBay. I need the money and space and don't want to move them. Just search for my user name, fortran00 (that's double-zero). I am starting with components and will move on to parts, complete systems, docs, software, etc. as I complete an inventory and testing. There are multiples of everything. Deals outside of eBay will be considered, but not for items actually up for auction, as this violates eBay rules. I have a larger discussion of what is available under the listing for Rainbow system units. Everything is tested before sale, but of course I can't guarantee future performance. > > Richard Lorenzen, fortran00, NA0L $167.50 for a VR201 is more than I would have guessed, nice sale for you: http://www.ebay.com/itm/252318537554 Happen to have any color VR241 monitors? From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Thu Mar 24 17:20:31 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 15:20:31 -0700 Subject: IBM PC XT free for pickup, Vancouver, BC area. Message-ID: <2585D50F-824A-408D-A7F6-ACA0C9BC58FA@cs.ubc.ca> IBM 5160 system IBM 5151 monitor IBM clicky keyboard. Dual floppy with hard drive, but the hard drive is erratic, perhaps a stiction issue. Also some extra floppy drives and untested hard drives. Mentioned this last year, it's still available, but may soon end up in scrap if it's not taken. From supervinx at libero.it Thu Mar 24 17:29:44 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 23:29:44 +0100 Subject: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: Hi! Got a MicroPDP 11 plus. It seems to be misconfigured. It can't execute .CMD files, reporting Task "...AT." terminated Load failure. Read error No disk errors are reported with ELI DU0:/SH Disk seems to work: I can run .TSK files. The file STARTUP.CMD isn't read at all. Any hints? Which file is executed right before STARTUP.CMD? I see two RED commands and a MOU before it tries to read [1,2]STARTUP.CMD and reports the aforementioned error. Thanks From jason at textfiles.com Thu Mar 24 18:55:26 2016 From: jason at textfiles.com (Jason Scott) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 19:55:26 -0400 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> Message-ID: Hats off to the sarcasm. On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Joan R wrote: > Hi Paul, > Thanks for responding. I felt a little relief although the message is still > clear that you find me something like a "scam". Please don't. I usually use > this email icess16 at sdiwc.net to promote the conference but my apology for > signing up via gmail. Lessons learned here. My wrong. > > Praying for forgiveness especially in this time of Easter. Happy Easter to > you and all the members of this elite group. > > Sincerely, > > Joan Sali > Conference Manager > SDIWC - DIPECC2016 and > ICESS2016 > < > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/second-international-conference-on-electronics-and-software-science/ > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Paul Koning > wrote: > > > As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a > > first name, as most likely a scam. If it were legitimate, the least one > > would expect is a real name on the announcement. The gmail address only > > reinforces that suspicion. > > > > paul > > > > > On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Joan R wrote: > > > > > > ... > > > Joan > > > Conference Manager > > > > > From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 24 19:13:11 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 20:13:11 -0400 Subject: help reading 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <5F6A2254-59B8-4619-AE8D-93A81B754775@comcast.net> > On Mar 24, 2016, at 5:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > > Jon Elson wrote on Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:34:48 -0500: >> What density and format is this tape? Not all drives >> support all densities. > > I actually mentioned this detail to his advisor when they were > discussing this topic after his student's defense, but I don't think he > remembers this information. I am guessing that the tape was recorded > around 1986, so any new density introduced after that (if there were > any) can be ruled out. About the format, I have no idea. Standard half inch tape was around well before that, I don't think anything changed for some years before. Standard densities are 800, 1600, and 6250 BPI. Hopefully it's not one of the oddball values that a few benighted manufacturers implemented, like 3200 BPI. 7 track, as Nico points out, is harder to find. It stayed around longer than the 1960s, especially on some architectures. For example, around CDC mainframes you're far more likely to find it than, say, on PDP11s (though DEC did sell 7 track drives for the PDP11). 7-track standard densities are 200, 556, and 800 bpi. There still are people around with working 7 track drives, so if you have that, there is still an answer, but the number of them is certainly more limited. paul From cclist at sydex.com Thu Mar 24 19:34:48 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 17:34:48 -0700 Subject: help reading 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <5F6A2254-59B8-4619-AE8D-93A81B754775@comcast.net> References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> <5F6A2254-59B8-4619-AE8D-93A81B754775@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56F487A8.6010309@sydex.com> On 03/24/2016 05:13 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > 7 track, as Nico points out, is harder to find. It stayed around > longer than the 1960s, especially on some architectures. For > example, around CDC mainframes you're far more likely to find it > than, say, on PDP11s (though DEC did sell 7 track drives for the > PDP11). 7-track standard densities are 200, 556, and 800 bpi. There > still are people around with working 7 track drives, so if you have > that, there is still an answer, but the number of them is certainly > more limited. I've certainly written my share of 7-track tapes, but at least in the last 20 years, I can't recall ever having be ask to read one. --Chuck From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 21:31:18 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:31:18 +0800 Subject: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016) In-Reply-To: References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> Message-ID: "Sarcastic" because of my insensitivity and whatever that may be for you, is hurting. I don't blame you for being upset with my posting. I can only ask for a sorry but felt there's no room for it for now. Thanks anyway. Sincerely, Joan Sali dipecc16 @sdiwc.net On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 7:55 AM, Jason Scott wrote: > Hats off to the sarcasm. > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Joan R wrote: > > > Hi Paul, > > Thanks for responding. I felt a little relief although the message is > still > > clear that you find me something like a "scam". Please don't. I usually > use > > this email icess16 at sdiwc.net to promote the conference but my apology > for > > signing up via gmail. Lessons learned here. My wrong. > > > > Praying for forgiveness especially in this time of Easter. Happy Easter > to > > you and all the members of this elite group. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Joan Sali > > Conference Manager > > SDIWC - DIPECC2016 and > > ICESS2016 > > < > > > http://sdiwc.net/conferences/second-international-conference-on-electronics-and-software-science/ > > > > > > > On Thu, Mar 24, 2016 at 10:51 PM, Paul Koning > > wrote: > > > > > As a general rule, I view announcements like this, signed only with a > > > first name, as most likely a scam. If it were legitimate, the least > one > > > would expect is a real name on the announcement. The gmail address > only > > > reinforces that suspicion. > > > > > > paul > > > > > > > On Mar 24, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Joan R wrote: > > > > > > > > ... > > > > Joan > > > > Conference Manager > > > > > > > > > From elson at pico-systems.com Thu Mar 24 21:56:12 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 21:56:12 -0500 Subject: help reading 9 track tape In-Reply-To: <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> References: <20160324150147.EAF6079968A6A@bart0187.email.locaweb.com.br> <56F40918.90505@pico-systems.com> <20160324214416.7DCA779355170@bart0182.email.locaweb.com.br> Message-ID: <56F4A8CC.50207@pico-systems.com> On 03/24/2016 04:40 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. wrote: > Jon Elson wrote on Thu, 24 Mar 2016 10:34:48 -0500: >> What density and format is this tape? Not all drives >> support all densities. > I actually mentioned this detail to his advisor when they were > discussing this topic after his student's defense, but I don't think he > remembers this information. I am guessing that the tape was recorded > around 1986, so any new density introduced after that (if there were > any) can be ruled out. About the format, I have no idea. > > In 1986, pretty much any density was possible. But, since it was done on a PDP-11, it is a fairly good guess it is not at 6250. So, most likely either 800 (which I no longer have a complete system to read) or 1600, which I do. But, likely others can do it, also. Jon From joan.sdiwc at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 22:01:01 2016 From: joan.sdiwc at gmail.com (Joan Sali) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 11:01:01 +0800 Subject: Random conferences [was Re: The Second International Conference on Electronics and Software Science (ICESS2016)] In-Reply-To: <01PY7AY6G9L200CQHR@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY6NS51L1W00C5MA@beyondthepale.ie> <666A6B04-6D16-43D1-955A-B9E3377B4B0C@comcast.net> <201603241501.LAA16186@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <01PY7AY6G9L200CQHR@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: Hi Peter, Checking this software science conference in Japan ( http://sdiwc.net/conferences/second-international-conference-on-electronics-and-software-science/) is desirable at this point. I'm hoping this is sufficient information for you to correct your thoughts. Thank you. On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 5:06 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > > > Hello there, > > Really appreciate the reply. > > Again, my apology for looking like a 'scam'. I'm not, please. > > > > Not a very convincing denial. > > > > > Happy Easter to you and the rest of this elite group. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Joan Sali > > Conference Manager > > > > Originally, I thought these ads were what a colleague of mine used to > refer to > as "academic spam". I haven't seen anything like it for many years. > Almost > brings back memories of the days before spam went mainstream when mailing > lists > devoted to academic topics were cluttered up with dozens of relatively > harmless > but highly irritating "invitations" to ghastly overhyped conferences. > > The more I look at these new examples, the more dubious they look. A > collection of popular buzzwords and bleeding edge terminology, no > specifics, > no names of contributors, not even unrecognisable ones, an "invitation" > addressed to nobody in particular, a few hundred dollars registration fee. > > It appears the main attractions are (unspecified) "researchers from the > international community", "presentations from (unspecified) keynote > speakers" > and "state-of-the-art lectures", something I would want to be paid for if I > was required to attend, not the other way around. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > From camiel at camicom.com Thu Mar 24 16:24:18 2016 From: camiel at camicom.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:24:18 +0100 Subject: Looking for Eyring PDOS for TMS-9900 Message-ID: <002601d18613$8632ecc0$9298c640$@camicom.com> If anyone happens to have a copy of the PDOS operating system for TMS-9900 systems, I'd like to know, and hopefully arrange some sort of transfer; I have a TMS-9900 system on eurocards, built by the german company TEP. It was not working when I got it, but I painstakingly debugged a bunch of problems out of it with my trusty logic analyzer. I've now got it up and running to the point where it tries to load the OS from a 5-1/4" floppy disk (79 tracks, 16 sectors, 256 bytes/sector). The BOOT EPROMs contain a bootloader for PDOS, and I have a PDOS manual, but not the operating system itself. PDOS was made by Eyring Research Institute, Inc. Thanks! Camiel Vanderhoeven From iamcamiel at gmail.com Thu Mar 24 16:24:47 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 22:24:47 +0100 Subject: Looking for Eyring PDOS for TMS-9900 Message-ID: <002b01d18613$98f579e0$cae06da0$@gmail.com> If anyone happens to have a copy of the PDOS operating system for TMS-9900 systems, I'd like to know, and hopefully arrange some sort of transfer; I have a TMS-9900 system on eurocards, built by the german company TEP. It was not working when I got it, but I painstakingly debugged a bunch of problems out of it with my trusty logic analyzer. I've now got it up and running to the point where it tries to load the OS from a 5-1/4" floppy disk (79 tracks, 16 sectors, 256 bytes/sector). The BOOT EPROMs contain a bootloader for PDOS, and I have a PDOS manual, but not the operating system itself. PDOS was made by Eyring Research Institute, Inc. Thanks! Camiel Vanderhoeven From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Mar 24 17:53:36 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 24 Mar 2016 17:53:36 -0500 Subject: cctech Digest, Vol 21, Issue 22 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Mar 23, 2016, at 12:00 PM, cctech-request at classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2016 16:34:01 +0100 > From: Mattis Lind > To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" > > Subject: RSX11S > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > While archiving a bunch of old 8 inch disks I found disks that apparently > contain an old RSX11S system. I think it has been used in some kind of > railroad CTC system. > > https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/96935524/Datormusuem/PDP11RX01DISKS/DISK4.RAW > > It is possible to boot this image in SimH (when setting CPU type to 11/03, > 11/23 (F11), 11/34 or 11/73 (J11) ) > > I get this: > > sim> b rx0 > XDT: 18 > XDT>g > RSX-11S V02 BL18 > > > DEVICE TT01: NOT IN CONFIGURATION > DEVICE FT00: NOT IN CONFIGURATION >> a > MCR -- 1 >> b > MCR -- 1 >> ccc > MCR -- 1 >> > > > So first there is a XDT> prompt. By pressing g or p it starts RSX11S. But > it seems to be possible to do other things. Commands like "s" and "l" do > stuff "x" causes: > > XDT>x > > SYSTEM CRASH AT LOCATION 025276 > > REGISTERS > > R0=000000 R1=177170 R2=003403 R3=157000 > > R4=012422 R5=000002 SP=157004 PS=000340 > > SYSTEM STACK DUMP > > LOCATION CONTENTS > > 157004 157150 > > HALT instruction, PC: 000572 (MOVB #15,R2) > sim> > > I understand that RSX11S is a scaled down version of RSX11M. An embedded > RTOS of that day. But what kind of commands are possible at the XDT and > MCR(?) prompts. I am a little bit curious to understand more about the > system that it has been running. > > > /Mattis Mattis, A good description of what is possible in RSX11S can be found in the manual: http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/rsx11/RSX11S_V4.2_Jul85/AA-2874F-TC_RSX-11S_4.2_Sysgen_Jul85.pdf Because you got the MCR - 1 (Illegal Function) response I think basic MCR must have been included in the system. The XDT> is the eXecutive Debugging Tool and is similar to ODT. The X is a command to do a crash dump. There are not many MCR commands available in RSX11S, but one that you should try is TAL which if it was included in the system sysgen will display all the installed tasks and their status, ATL shows which tasks are active. RUN task name will execute a task that is installed. The most interesting thing that you might find in the system, if it was included is a task called RSDV1H which displays a live picture of the memory organization and system operation similar to RMD on a RSX11M or M+ system. RSX11S was designed to be a memory resident real-time priority driven multitasking system. It is booted from a disk but really doesn't have a file system unless it is included in the sysgen and then it only does block I/O type operations. Nonresident tasks can be loaded by a task loader if that capability is sysgened in. This all sounds pretty limiting and it is but still RSX11S can do a lot when needed. Over 30 years ago, I helped create a system that read data from 8 commodity exchanges & a news wire feed in various formats, then sent DECnet data packets to 10 PDP-11/23s running RSX11S. The 11/23s each had 20 VT100s hung off each one (using DLV11Js and DZV11s) with each commodity trader getting customized screens of data in real-time. The goal was to get data to the traders faster than any other commercial service. News headlines scrolled across the bottom of the VT100 and the trader could request specific stories which were stored in a RMS-11 Indexed file back on the main server which was an 11/44 run RSX11M. The RSX11S systems had no disk and were downloaded the OS over the leased data line running at 9600 baud (fast for the day). The 11/23s ran re-entrant Macro-11 code in 256 Kbytes of RAM (OS, programs, & DECnet). Best Regards, Mark From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 03:19:51 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:19:51 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter Message-ID: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> The M24 I got the other day has the bus converter, whereas the other M24 that I already had does not. I bought a bus converter for the "old" one, but then realised I didn't have any mounting bushes or spacers in order to install it. I thought of removing some of the bushes from the new one to share with the old one, it wouldn't be as good but at least I would be able to install the converter. It looks like I might need some kind of special tool to remove the bushes from the new machine. Is there a way to do this with ordinary tools? Does anyone know if the mounting bushes are any kind of standard part that could still be bought somewhere? Thanks Rob From wmaddox at pacbell.net Fri Mar 25 03:28:05 2016 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 01:28:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 panels In-Reply-To: <56F34F31.6060303@btinternet.com> References: <56F34F31.6060303@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <001201d18670$41ec9d60$c5c5d820$@pacbell.net> I received one of the new panels from Rob, and it is nearly indistinguishable from the original. It captures the matte finish of the original exactly. Fantastic! >_PDP-8 New Products under consideration _ > >1. Front panels for any of the other PDP-8 models, Including the >Straight 8 but excluding PDP-8A. I'd like to cast a vote for the PDP8/I. I have a machine with a completely trashed panel, where the clear-coat has become crinkly, cracked, and dark. I suspect there may be a market for these panels for simulator-backed front panel reproductions. Oscar Vermuelen's excellent PiDP-8 uses a reduced-size PDP8/I panel, but a full-sized replica would be even nicer. The PDP8/I has the most beautiful and complete panel of any of the 8s, perhaps of any minicomputer. --Bill From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Fri Mar 25 04:18:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 09:18:55 +0000 Subject: PDP-8 panels In-Reply-To: <001201d18670$41ec9d60$c5c5d820$@pacbell.net> References: <56F34F31.6060303@btinternet.com> <001201d18670$41ec9d60$c5c5d820$@pacbell.net> Message-ID: <56F5027F.8040003@btinternet.com> Hi Bill Thank you for the kind words. What you have is Version 3. Version 1 shipped in limited quantities. Version 2 never shipped because Chessie (My silk screen expert) and I did not like what happend when we put matt black on the front. I had to sit down and think about that one. I have a real 8/m panel (Loaned by a kind list member) Being as old as it was it was scratched in a few places. I noticed that although it was not matt black on the front there was a coating of some sort. So we ordered some translucent ink. The result was awful. It was good for covering the lamp holes on the back though. Then something in my somewhat senior brain (I started with papertape and punched cards) Reminded me that you can get perspex with surface finishes. So I get on the phone to my panel supplier and she sends me down some samples. One looks good so off down to the silk screen shop. We put the normal semi gloss on the back and stuck it in the drier. Then mins later Chessie fishes it out of the drier and says something very unladylike, Followed by It looks matt on the front. It really does!! After that it was back to the normal six step screen - dry - screen process. Why did the translucent ink not work? They don't make the right one anymore because as we found out you can get etched silk finish perspex!!! I always confuse 8/i and 8/L. Which one did you want? I know Oscar and I'm sure he said he had no problem with me doing full size panels as he only did the cut down version. I'm now going to build for stock (8/e, 8/f and 8/m) We have custom packaging so we can ship pre-packed same day. Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood with me making full size panels On 25/03/2016 08:28, William Maddox wrote: > I received one of the new panels from Rob, and it is nearly indistinguishable from the original. It captures the matte finish of the original exactly. Fantastic! > >> _PDP-8 New Products under consideration _ >> >> 1. Front panels for any of the other PDP-8 models, Including the >> Straight 8 but excluding PDP-8A. > I'd like to cast a vote for the PDP8/I. I have a machine with a completely trashed panel, where the clear-coat has become crinkly, cracked, and dark. > > I suspect there may be a market for these panels for simulator-backed front panel reproductions. Oscar Vermuelen's excellent PiDP-8 uses a reduced-size PDP8/I panel, but a full-sized replica would be even nicer. The PDP8/I has the most beautiful and complete panel of any of the 8s, perhaps of any minicomputer. > > --Bill > > > From dave.g4ugm at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 07:15:52 2016 From: dave.g4ugm at gmail.com (Dave Wade) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:15:52 +0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Could they be 3d printed? Pictures might help... On 25 Mar 2016 09:20, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > The M24 I got the other day has the bus converter, whereas the other M24 > that I already had does not. I bought a bus converter for the "old" one, > but > then realised I didn't have any mounting bushes or spacers in order to > install it. I thought of removing some of the bushes from the new one to > share with the old one, it wouldn't be as good but at least I would be able > to install the converter. > > > > It looks like I might need some kind of special tool to remove the bushes > from the new machine. Is there a way to do this with ordinary tools? Does > anyone know if the mounting bushes are any kind of standard part that could > still be bought somewhere? > > > > Thanks > > > > Rob > > From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 07:29:19 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:29:19 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > Wade > Sent: 25 March 2016 12:16 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > Could they be 3d printed? Pictures might help... There are actually two varieties. The plastic ones probably could, but actually I was talking about the steel ones which probably can't. I have put it all away again for now so I can't get any pictures right now. I'll get it out again later, if I can, and post some pics. Regards Rob > On 25 Mar 2016 09:20, "Robert Jarratt" wrote: > > > The M24 I got the other day has the bus converter, whereas the other > > M24 that I already had does not. I bought a bus converter for the > > "old" one, but then realised I didn't have any mounting bushes or > > spacers in order to install it. I thought of removing some of the > > bushes from the new one to share with the old one, it wouldn't be as > > good but at least I would be able to install the converter. > > > > > > > > It looks like I might need some kind of special tool to remove the > > bushes from the new machine. Is there a way to do this with ordinary > > tools? Does anyone know if the mounting bushes are any kind of > > standard part that could still be bought somewhere? > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > Rob > > > > From ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk Fri Mar 25 07:59:23 2016 From: ard at p850ug1.demon.co.uk (tony duell) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:59:23 +0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> , <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > > Could they be 3d printed? Pictures might help... > > There are actually two varieties. The plastic ones probably could, but actually I was > talking about the steel ones which probably can't. I have put it all away again for > now so I can't get any pictures right now. I'll get it out again later, if I can, and post > some pics. Could you turn them on a lathe. I assume they're quite small. -tony From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 08:24:19 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 13:24:19 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> , <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <02db01d18699$a2fb1fe0$e8f15fa0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of tony duell > Sent: 25 March 2016 12:59 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > > > > Could they be 3d printed? Pictures might help... > > > > There are actually two varieties. The plastic ones probably could, but > > actually I was talking about the steel ones which probably can't. I > > have put it all away again for now so I can't get any pictures right > > now. I'll get it out again later, if I can, and post some pics. > > Could you turn them on a lathe. I assume they're quite small. > > -tony > = Perhaps, if I had a lathe. I do have a locksmith friend who could possibly make them, but it is the way they go into the base that is problematic. I will have to post some pictures. Regards Rob From tsg at bonedaddy.net Fri Mar 25 09:21:10 2016 From: tsg at bonedaddy.net (Todd Goodman) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:21:10 -0400 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <20160325142110.GB17483@ns1.bonedaddy.net> * Robert Jarratt [160325 08:29]: > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Dave > > Wade > > Sent: 25 March 2016 12:16 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > > > Subject: Re: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > > > Could they be 3d printed? Pictures might help... > > > There are actually two varieties. The plastic ones probably could, but actually I was talking about the steel ones which probably can't. I have put it all away again for now so I can't get any pictures right now. I'll get it out again later, if I can, and post some pics. > > Regards > > Rob Do you mean stand-offs? Like: http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/keystone-electronics/1813/36-1813-ND/303673 ? From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 25 10:30:42 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 08:30:42 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> I'll have to open up my 6300 to see what they are, but my initial impression is that rivnuts might be just the ticket. I'll check later, however. --Chuck From ball.of.john at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 12:29:33 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:29:33 -0700 Subject: Free XT Machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: I'm up in Kamloops but even at the cost of gas (about $120 tghere and back) I'm tempted to go down and pick it up if it has not already happened. Failing that, There's a fantastic place at 304 Victoria drive that will accept the machine if you can't find a home for it. I can vet for them as their specialty is older machines. -John B. >IBM 5160 system >IBM 5151 monitor >IBM clicky keyboard. > >Dual floppy with hard drive, but the hard drive is erratic, perhaps a stiction issue. >Also some extra floppy drives and untested hard drives. > >Mentioned this last year, it's still available, but may soon end up in scrap if it's not taken. From ball.of.john at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 12:34:33 2016 From: ball.of.john at gmail.com (John Ball) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 10:34:33 -0700 Subject: Free XT Machine In-Reply-To: Message-ID: >I'm up in Kamloops but even at the cost of gas (about $120 tghere and back) I'm tempted to go down and pick >it up if it has not already happened. Failing that, There's a fantastic place at 304 Victoria drive that >will accept the machine if you can't find a home for it. I can vet for them as their specialty is older >machines. Oh butts, that was to be emailed to him directly. Sorry guys. >_>' From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 12:44:25 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 17:44:25 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> Message-ID: <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Chuck > Guzis > Sent: 25 March 2016 15:31 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > I'll have to open up my 6300 to see what they are, but my initial impression is > that rivnuts might be just the ticket. I'll check later, however. > > --Chuck I looked up rivnuts and they certainly look similar. They are definitely not standoffs though. I shall look closer at rivnuts. Thanks Rob From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 14:10:25 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 12:10:25 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: > I looked up rivnuts and they certainly look similar. They are definitely > not standoffs though. I shall look closer at rivnuts. also look at nutserts. Riv-nuts are pop-rivets with a threaded center. Usable through sheet metal, and into blind holes (very carefully) Nutserts call for drilling and threading a hole and screwing them in. I'm assuming that you are talking about threaded inserts in a plastic piece? From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 16:25:11 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 21:25:11 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 25 March 2016 19:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > > I looked up rivnuts and they certainly look similar. They are > > definitely not standoffs though. I shall look closer at rivnuts. > > also look at nutserts. > > Riv-nuts are pop-rivets with a threaded center. Usable through sheet metal, > and into blind holes (very carefully) Nutserts call for drilling and threading a > hole and screwing them in. > > I'm assuming that you are talking about threaded inserts in a plastic piece? > I have posted the pictures here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5776&authkey=!AOs6cfg 8p_qyB5Q&ithint=folder%2cjpg The pictures show three things: 1. The square holes that the mountings go into. 2. The top and bottom side of the steel mountings. 3. The top and bottom sides of the nylon (?) mountings. I find myself to really need the steel mountings to be able to mount the bus converter, I am hopeful that I can move a couple of existing nylon ones. Regards Rob From isking at uw.edu Fri Mar 25 16:54:26 2016 From: isking at uw.edu (Ian S. King) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 14:54:26 -0700 Subject: Free XT Machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm waiting to hear back, but I think Brent and I have an agreement on this. :-) On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 10:34 AM, John Ball wrote: > >I'm up in Kamloops but even at the cost of gas (about $120 tghere and > back) > I'm tempted to go down and pick >it up if it has not already happened. > Failing that, There's a fantastic place at 304 Victoria drive that > >will accept the machine if you can't find a home for it. I can vet for > them > as their specialty is older > >machines. > > Oh butts, that was to be emailed to him directly. Sorry guys. >_>' > > -- Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate The Information School Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical Narrative Through a Design Lens Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal Value Sensitive Design Research Lab University of Washington There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From cclist at sydex.com Fri Mar 25 17:14:46 2016 From: cclist at sydex.com (Chuck Guzis) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:14:46 -0700 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> On 03/25/2016 02:25 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote: > I have posted the pictures here: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5776&authkey=!AOs6cfg > > 8p_qyB5Q&ithint=folder%2cjpg > > The pictures show three things: > > 1. The square holes that the mountings go into. 2. The top and bottom > side of the steel mountings. 3. The top and bottom sides of the nylon > (?) mountings. > > I find myself to really need the steel mountings to be able to mount > the bus converter, I am hopeful that I can move a couple of existing > nylon ones. Ah, thanks for saving me the trouble of digging out my own 6300. The exact nylon standoffs might be a bit difficult, but the metal parts could easily be replaced with plain old threaded hex standoffs. The original metal standoffs are press-fitted into place and my guess that they'll be difficult to find, even if you do own an appropriate press The great thing is that the holes for both types are recessed on the bottom, so that getting a good mounting using a washer-head machine screw should be no problem. I've got bags of aluminum hex standoffs of various sizes and find them to be invaluable. Jameco also offers a somewhat more limited selection. Here's Mouser's 578 pages of standoff choices: http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Hardware/Standoffs-Spacers/_/N-aictf So maybe not original, but close enough functionally. --Chuck From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 25 17:15:51 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:15:51 -0700 Subject: Free XT Machine In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Sorry to leave anybody anticipating, busy packing house to deadline. Yes, Ian was first in with local transfer so it's his at this point. On 2016-Mar-25, at 2:54 PM, Ian S. King wrote: > I'm waiting to hear back, but I think Brent and I have an agreement on > this. :-) > > On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 10:34 AM, John Ball wrote: > >>> I'm up in Kamloops but even at the cost of gas (about $120 tghere and >> back) >> I'm tempted to go down and pick >it up if it has not already happened. >> Failing that, There's a fantastic place at 304 Victoria drive that >>> will accept the machine if you can't find a home for it. I can vet for >> them >> as their specialty is older >>> machines. >> >> Oh butts, that was to be emailed to him directly. Sorry guys. >_>' >> >> > > > -- > Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate > The Information School > Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical > Narrative Through a Design Lens > > Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal > Value Sensitive Design Research Lab > > University of Washington > > There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China." From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 25 17:16:58 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 22:16:58 +0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> , <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Rob, many of your messages are blank. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Robert Jarratt Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 2:25 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred Cisin > Sent: 25 March 2016 19:10 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > > > I looked up rivnuts and they certainly look similar. They are > > definitely not standoffs though. I shall look closer at rivnuts. > > also look at nutserts. > > Riv-nuts are pop-rivets with a threaded center. Usable through sheet metal, > and into blind holes (very carefully) Nutserts call for drilling and threading a > hole and screwing them in. > > I'm assuming that you are talking about threaded inserts in a plastic piece? > I have posted the pictures here: https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5776&authkey=!AOs6cfg 8p_qyB5Q&ithint=folder%2cjpg The pictures show three things: 1. The square holes that the mountings go into. 2. The top and bottom side of the steel mountings. 3. The top and bottom sides of the nylon (?) mountings. I find myself to really need the steel mountings to be able to mount the bus converter, I am hopeful that I can move a couple of existing nylon ones. Regards Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 25 17:22:52 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:22:52 -0700 Subject: also free for pickup: macClassic Message-ID: I believe it has the nothing-but-horizontal-bars-in-display problem. Picked it up in anticipation of working on it someday but I have too much to do. With keyboard. I think the system disks and manuals are also around. Sorry, but I just can't get into packing&shipping stuff this size. From cisin at xenosoft.com Fri Mar 25 17:24:21 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:24:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> , <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: Sorry for top posting, . . . Does what you just forwarded look blank to you? Search it for: "I have posted the pictures here:" ending with "Regards Rob" On Fri, 25 Mar 2016, dwight wrote: > Rob, many of your messages are blank. > Dwight > > ________________________________________ > From: cctalk on behalf of Robert Jarratt > Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 2:25 PM > To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' > Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Fred > Cisin >> Sent: 25 March 2016 19:10 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> >> Subject: RE: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter >> >>> I looked up rivnuts and they certainly look similar. They are >>> definitely not standoffs though. I shall look closer at rivnuts. >> >> also look at nutserts. >> >> Riv-nuts are pop-rivets with a threaded center. Usable through sheet > metal, >> and into blind holes (very carefully) Nutserts call for drilling and > threading a >> hole and screwing them in. >> >> I'm assuming that you are talking about threaded inserts in a plastic > piece? >> > > I have posted the pictures here: > https://onedrive.live.com/redir?resid=FC758A5A91B91301!5776&authkey=!AOs6cfg > 8p_qyB5Q&ithint=folder%2cjpg > > The pictures show three things: > > 1. The square holes that the mountings go into. > 2. The top and bottom side of the steel mountings. > 3. The top and bottom sides of the nylon (?) mountings. > > I find myself to really need the steel mountings to be able to mount the bus > converter, I am hopeful that I can move a couple of existing nylon ones. > > Regards > > Rob From hilpert at cs.ubc.ca Fri Mar 25 17:26:24 2016 From: hilpert at cs.ubc.ca (Brent Hilpert) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 15:26:24 -0700 Subject: couple of Coco machines also free for pickup Message-ID: Vancouver, B.C. region, as with the other stuff. From robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com Fri Mar 25 18:10:38 2016 From: robert.jarratt at ntlworld.com (Robert Jarratt) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 23:10:38 -0000 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter In-Reply-To: <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> Message-ID: <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> > > Ah, thanks for saving me the trouble of digging out my own 6300. > > The exact nylon standoffs might be a bit difficult, but the metal parts could > easily be replaced with plain old threaded hex standoffs. The original metal > standoffs are press-fitted into place and my guess that they'll be difficult to > find, even if you do own an appropriate press I was wondering if these are pressed in, or if the serrated edge around the bottom of the mounting indicated some kind of two-part component with a special tool to screw the two halves together. Sounds like it is a single part :-( > > The great thing is that the holes for both types are recessed on the bottom, > so that getting a good mounting using a washer-head machine screw should > be no problem. I've got bags of aluminum hex standoffs of various sizes and > find them to be invaluable. Jameco also offers a somewhat more limited > selection. > > Here's Mouser's 578 pages of standoff choices: > > http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Hardware/Standoffs- > Spacers/_/N-aictf > > So maybe not original, but close enough functionally. > > --Chuck I hadn't considered doing something like this. In the end I am most interested in functionality as long as I don't have to permanently alter anything. Thanks for the suggestion. Rob From dkelvey at hotmail.com Fri Mar 25 19:06:56 2016 From: dkelvey at hotmail.com (dwight) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 00:06:56 +0000 Subject: couple of Coco machines also free for pickup In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm thinking that maybe someone should sit outside your place with a pickup truck and camper shell. Dwight ________________________________________ From: cctalk on behalf of Brent Hilpert Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 3:26 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: couple of Coco machines also free for pickup Vancouver, B.C. region, as with the other stuff. From mhs.stein at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 21:34:21 2016 From: mhs.stein at gmail.com (Mike Stein) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 22:34:21 -0400 Subject: Olivetti M24 Mounting Bushes for Bus Converter References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Jarratt" Sent: Friday, March 25, 2016 7:10 PM ... >> Here's Mouser's 578 pages of standoff choices: >> >> http://www.mouser.com/Electromechanical/Hardware/Standoffs- >> Spacers/_/N-aictf >> >> So maybe not original, but close enough functionally. >> >> --Chuck > > I hadn't considered doing something like this. In the end I am most > interested in functionality as long as I don't have to permanently alter > anything. I just cut what I need from the barrel of an old dried-out ball point pen, with self-tapping screws, long all-the-way-through screws, or expanding plastic standoffs glued in the end(s), depending on the situation... m From derschjo at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 22:21:43 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 20:21:43 -0700 Subject: DEC H7104-D debugging... In-Reply-To: References: <56F0BEC7.9060404@gmail.com> <56F36B51.3070607@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56F60047.4000400@gmail.com> On 3/24/16 3:25 AM, Mattis Lind wrote: >> So I had a few minutes tonight to investigate a few things: >> >> - The startup PSU is running, and the relay in the 5V supply is firing and >> stays energized until the supply is powered off. >> - The +5V, and +/-12V bias voltages are being properly generated. This >> makes sense, since the 2.5V supply is working fine. From my understanding >> of the supply, this means the 300VDC is also present (also validated by the >> relay firing.) >> - The 20Khz clock generated on the bias board is present (measured from >> pin 8 of J1 on on the bias board), at the proper rate and duty cycle. >> - 5V AC and DC LO signals (measured at J1) are .3 and .9V, respectively. >> > Then a lot things seems to be working. It does seem that way. Thanks for the suggestions, I have a few (likely head-scratchingly obvious) questions below. This is not my area of expertise by a long shot so some of these things are less than obvious to me. Thanks for being patient :). > Is the main chopper transistor driven? How do I identify which transistor is the main chopper? I've looked through the schematic and the tech reference and I've come up empty. > > First check that you have a signal on the primary side of the pulse > transformer T2 on the mother board? Driven through B22 / B24 from the > control board. Q6 collector. These are the pins on J4 (on the motherboard) labeled "-TRIGGER" and "+TRIGGER" ? Is this safe to probe with a standard 10x oscilloscope probe (assuming I bring some leads out to where it's safe...)? > > If not then check backwards towards the NE556, Q6 and Q15. E9 pin 9 and pin > 5. E8 pin 3. These outputs are OR:ed together via diodes and drive Q15 base. Makes sense. > > If yes then you need to investigate the secondary side of the pulse > transformer T2 on the mother board. (Now it is getting dangerous if you are > not careful). Is there base drive on the power transistors? What precautions do you recommend taking here? Thanks again. I may have some time this weekend to play with this, but I have family coming to visit, so probably not :). I'll let you know how I get on if I do, though... - Josh > >> So far, so good. I also measured the 5V Overcurrent and 5V Crowbar on J1 >> (pins 2 and 19) and they're at 12V and 8V respectively. I'm not sure I >> understand what this indicates; the Overcurrent lamp is not illuminated on >> the power controller, for example, and per the tech manual (section 4.4.2) >> if an overvoltage occurs and the crowbar kicks in, the supply should shut >> down for ~1 second, which I'm not seeing any indications of (I'm not seeing >> the voltage reach anything over .2V with a small load attached). The >> overcurrent protection appears to work similarly. I don't see an >> indication of what the levels for the signals on J1 are supposed to be, >> however. >> > The NE555 will trigger on a low going TRIG signal, so if either the CROWBAR > SENSE (which is generated by a SCR that sinks this singal to ground when > fired) OR the +5V OVERCURRENT goes low it will trigger. These signals are > active low. I.e you don't have a over current or over voltage condition. > >> I'll hopefully have more time to debug later this week, thought I'd report >> my findings and see if anyone has any bright ideas. >> > Good luck! > > /Mattis > > > >> Thanks as always, >> - Josh >> >> From wmaddox at pacbell.net Sat Mar 26 02:02:05 2016 From: wmaddox at pacbell.net (William Maddox) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 00:02:05 -0700 Subject: PDP-8 panels In-Reply-To: <56F5027F.8040003@btinternet.com> References: <56F34F31.6060303@btinternet.com> <001201d18670$41ec9d60$c5c5d820$@pacbell.net> <56F5027F.8040003@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <004a01d1872d$687d5f60$39781e20$@pacbell.net> Hi, Rod. >I always confuse 8/i and 8/L. Which one did you want? >I know Oscar and I'm sure he said he had no problem with me doing full size panels as he only did the cut down version. The PDP-8/I. The 8/I panel has indicators for the multiplier-quotient register (for the EAE), instruction and data fields, and the fully-decoded opcode. Here's a photo, from David Gesswein's website: http://www.pdp8.net/pdp8i/pics/pdp8i_frontpanel.shtm --Bill From mtapley at swri.edu Sat Mar 26 11:31:41 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 16:31:41 +0000 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> Message-ID: <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> (Apologies in advance to non-Apple users) Mac folks, Last week AT&T ?upgraded? our Uverse service. All of our Macs running anything 10.6.8 or older quit working. Cure was to turn off IPv6: System Preferences -> Network -> Advanced -> TCP/IP -> iPv6 to ?Off? instead of ?Automatic?. Symptoms were *very* widespread, and matched reasonably well to failing hard drive or failing memory - system freeze, spinning beach-ball forever, can?t read directory, etc. etc. etc. On the G3, I rebooted in single-user mode and actually got part way through the output of ?ps -aux? in one case before freezing. However it did respond to Ctl-C and would then do a ?ps -a? no problem, just no ?ps -aux?. We were a bit silly, didn?t read our Uverse email, and didn?t test other systems before hooking more old systems into the network - which then didn?t work. We were panicing about viruses, pulling hair out, sacrificing goats ... Systems affected were : iMac G3 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - ethernet PowerBook G4 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - wi-fi iMac 2011 intel Mac OS X 10.6.8 - wi-fi Apologies if this is a known bug, but it really puzzled us for a while because the effects were so systemic; I hope I can prevent anybody else from getting a nice new (needless) hard drive like the 2011 iMac did? - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 26 11:40:49 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 16:40:49 +0000 Subject: Closeup needed Message-ID: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up pic of the logo area to the top left of the panel. In particular the address text under the logo. The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. Thanks Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 26 11:50:02 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list on eBay Message-ID: <20160326165002.C0E7A18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Hey, all you PDP-8 people: there's a PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list going on eBay, not very much: http://www.ebay.com/itm/272187153709 I saw it go past once before, figured someone would notice and grab it, but I guess not... Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 26 11:57:36 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:57:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP11 M9301-Yx ROM dumps Message-ID: <20160326165736.A063718C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> OK, so we already had a dump of the M9301-YA ROMs, but were (apparently) missing the others? So I fnally got one of my UNIBUS 11's running, and whipped up a small program to dump the ROM contents, and now have the -YB, -YF and -YH ROMs dumped. I'm in the process of disassembling them now. (If anyone needs the contents in binary format, to blow new ROMs, let me know, and I can probably produce them if you give me the details on the format you need the data in.) Does anyone have any of the others - YC, YD, YE and YJ? If you're not up to dumping them, I can send you my small program (currently in .LDA format, but I can convert it to a script - it is not very long at all - for the console emulator in the M9301 series), which will do it - it produces packed octal output, 8 words/line, so a very small output. Noel From lbickley at bickleywest.com Sat Mar 26 11:59:02 2016 From: lbickley at bickleywest.com (Lyle Bickley) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 09:59:02 -0700 Subject: PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160326165002.C0E7A18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160326165002.C0E7A18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <20160326095902.78819d2b@honcho.bcwi.net> On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > Hey, all you PDP-8 people: there's a PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list going > on eBay, not very much: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/272187153709 > > I saw it go past once before, figured someone would notice and grab > it, but I guess not... > > Noel Thanks, I bought it :) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From jsw at ieee.org Sat Mar 26 11:59:28 2016 From: jsw at ieee.org (Jerry Weiss) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 11:59:28 -0500 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> Message-ID: <2E3AF01D-F1EE-42C0-9D8E-AB2AA9A66736@ieee.org> > > On Mar 26, 2016, at 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > > (Apologies in advance to non-Apple users) > > Mac folks, > Last week AT&T ?upgraded? our Uverse service. All of our Macs running anything 10.6.8 or older quit working. > Cure was to turn off IPv6: System Preferences -> Network -> Advanced -> TCP/IP -> iPv6 to ?Off? instead of ?Automatic?. > > Symptoms were *very* widespread, and matched reasonably well to failing hard drive or failing memory - system freeze, spinning beach-ball forever, can?t read directory, etc. etc. etc. On the G3, I rebooted in single-user mode and actually got part way through the output of ?ps -aux? in one case before freezing. However it did respond to Ctl-C and would then do a ?ps -a? no problem, just no ?ps -aux?. We were a bit silly, didn?t read our Uverse email, and didn?t test other systems before hooking more old systems into the network - which then didn?t work. We were panicing about viruses, pulling hair out, sacrificing goats ... > > Systems affected were : > > iMac G3 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - ethernet > PowerBook G4 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - wi-fi > iMac 2011 intel Mac OS X 10.6.8 - wi-fi > > Apologies if this is a known bug, but it really puzzled us for a while because the effects were so systemic; I hope I can prevent anybody else from getting a nice new (needless) hard drive like the 2011 iMac did? > > - Mark > 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > On old boxes where I keep Linux (Ubuntu 7.x) and older hardware for my vintage work, I logged in one day and experienced major remote network problems and freezes. Granted this version of Ubuntu is running IPv6 code that is far from mature. My initial detective work showed problems with the IPv6 DNS resolution. I am also a Uverse customer. Disabling IPV6 was the cure. I?ve done this on my Macs running 10.1x as well and the number of similar but less frequent problems now approaches zero. Jerry From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 12:53:11 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 13:53:11 -0400 Subject: Closeup needed In-Reply-To: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> References: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> Message-ID: On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Rod Smallwood < rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > Hi Guys > Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up pic of > the logo area to the top left of the panel. > In particular the address text under the logo. > > The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. > > Thanks > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > May be useful, not a perfect photo, not my system http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp8i/ -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From bobalan at sbcglobal.net Sat Mar 26 12:57:05 2016 From: bobalan at sbcglobal.net (Bob Rosenbloom) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:57:05 -0700 Subject: Closeup needed In-Reply-To: References: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56F6CD71.9020904@sbcglobal.net> On 3/26/2016 10:53 AM, william degnan wrote: > On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Rod Smallwood < > rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up pic of >> the logo area to the top left of the panel. >> In particular the address text under the logo. >> >> The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. >> >> Thanks >> >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> > May be useful, not a perfect photo, not my system > http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp8i/ My panels can be seen here: http://www.dvq.com/DEC-panels/ Bob -- Vintage computers and electronics www.dvq.com www.tekmuseum.com www.decmuseum.org From paulkoning at comcast.net Sat Mar 26 12:58:07 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 13:58:07 -0400 Subject: Closeup needed In-Reply-To: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> References: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <6371C9BC-676B-442C-ACFA-CE368DF7BF84@comcast.net> > On Mar 26, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: > > Hi Guys > Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up pic of the logo area to the top left of the panel. > In particular the address text under the logo. > > The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. Judging by Bill's photo it's at least similar to Eurostyle (Microgramma). But back then a lot of companies drew their own, so you'd see something familiar looking but not quite exactly right. paul From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 26 13:05:16 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 18:05:16 +0000 Subject: Closeup needed In-Reply-To: <56F6CD71.9020904@sbcglobal.net> References: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> <56F6CD71.9020904@sbcglobal.net> Message-ID: <56F6CF5C.3000807@btinternet.com> Thanks there's a couple that are close enough and clear enough to make a start. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood On 26/03/2016 17:57, Bob Rosenbloom wrote: > On 3/26/2016 10:53 AM, william degnan wrote: >> On Sat, Mar 26, 2016 at 12:40 PM, Rod Smallwood < >> rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com> wrote: >> >>> Hi Guys >>> Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up >>> pic of >>> the logo area to the top left of the panel. >>> In particular the address text under the logo. >>> >>> The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. >>> >>> Thanks >>> >>> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >>> >>> >> May be useful, not a perfect photo, not my system >> http://www.vintagecomputer.net/digital/pdp8i/ > My panels can be seen here: http://www.dvq.com/DEC-panels/ > > Bob > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 26 13:08:59 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 18:08:59 +0000 Subject: Closeup needed In-Reply-To: <6371C9BC-676B-442C-ACFA-CE368DF7BF84@comcast.net> References: <56F6BB91.3020803@btinternet.com> <6371C9BC-676B-442C-ACFA-CE368DF7BF84@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56F6D03B.3070808@btinternet.com> Hi Paul Yes that's very close if not spot on.. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood On 26/03/2016 17:58, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 26, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Rod Smallwood wrote: >> >> Hi Guys >> Does anybody have an 8/i or 8/L?. I need a close up pic of the logo area to the top left of the panel. >> In particular the address text under the logo. >> >> The font looks like a made up one and I need to create it. > Judging by Bill's photo it's at least similar to Eurostyle (Microgramma). But back then a lot of companies drew their own, so you'd see something familiar looking but not quite exactly right. > > paul > > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 26 14:03:59 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 15:03:59 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 M873 ROM card info? Message-ID: <20160326190359.22CCA18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Does anyone know of _any_ information about this series of cards? They are quad cards which seem to use two chips of the same types as the M9301 uses four, with 128 words of memory. They thus must fit between the M792 diode ROM card, and the M9301, in timing terms. However, search as I can, I don't seem to be able to find anything on them. Known variants are the -YA, -YB and -YJ. Noel From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sat Mar 26 15:54:42 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 20:54:42 +0000 Subject: Thanks Message-ID: <56F6F712.7050402@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Thank you to every one who responded to my request for font pics. I found the right one in short order. Regards Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From other at oryx.us Sat Mar 26 17:19:27 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 17:19:27 -0500 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.6 In-Reply-To: <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> Message-ID: <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> Just curious if something specifically is broken or non-fixable with the 10.6.8 IPv6 stack? I'm specifically wondering if you did any troubleshooting to resolve this? Or if just disabling IPv6 was the quick'n'dirty answer? I'm excited for IPv6, but many of my Apple devices I have held back at 10.6 as the number of features that Apple took away seem to increase exponentially after 10.6.x. Jerry On 03/26/16 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: > (Apologies in advance to non-Apple users) > > Mac folks, > Last week AT&T ?upgraded? our Uverse service. All of our Macs running anything 10.6.8 or older quit working. > Cure was to turn off IPv6: System Preferences -> Network -> Advanced -> TCP/IP -> iPv6 to ?Off? instead of ?Automatic?. > > Symptoms were *very* widespread, and matched reasonably well to failing hard drive or failing memory - system freeze, spinning beach-ball forever, can?t read directory, etc. etc. etc. On the G3, I rebooted in single-user mode and actually got part way through the output of ?ps -aux? in one case before freezing. However it did respond to Ctl-C and would then do a ?ps -a? no problem, just no ?ps -aux?. We were a bit silly, didn?t read our Uverse email, and didn?t test other systems before hooking more old systems into the network - which then didn?t work. We were panicing about viruses, pulling hair out, sacrificing goats ... > > Systems affected were : > > iMac G3 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - ethernet > PowerBook G4 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - wi-fi > iMac 2011 intel Mac OS X 10.6.8 - wi-fi > > Apologies if this is a known bug, but it really puzzled us for a while because the effects were so systemic; I hope I can prevent anybody else from getting a nice new (needless) hard drive like the 2011 iMac did? > > - Mark > 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell > From aloha at blastpuppy.com Sat Mar 26 18:16:40 2016 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 16:16:40 -0700 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.6 In-Reply-To: <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> Message-ID: <798C997A-72EF-44E8-AAA5-DDA8620DE9BA@blastpuppy.com> It?s likely something broken in AT&T?s implementation - I have a G5 (10.5.8) with Comcast and native dual stack which works just fine. Robert Johnson -- Gtalk/Jabber:aloha at blastpuppy.com AIM:AlohaWulf Yahoo:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. > On Mar 26, 2016, at 3:19 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > Just curious if something specifically is broken or non-fixable with the 10.6.8 IPv6 stack? > > I'm specifically wondering if you did any troubleshooting to resolve this? Or if just disabling IPv6 was the quick'n'dirty answer? > > I'm excited for IPv6, but many of my Apple devices I have held back at 10.6 as the number of features that Apple took away seem to increase exponentially after 10.6.x. > > Jerry > > > On 03/26/16 11:31 AM, Tapley, Mark wrote: >> (Apologies in advance to non-Apple users) >> >> Mac folks, >> Last week AT&T ?upgraded? our Uverse service. All of our Macs running anything 10.6.8 or older quit working. >> Cure was to turn off IPv6: System Preferences -> Network -> Advanced -> TCP/IP -> iPv6 to ?Off? instead of ?Automatic?. >> >> Symptoms were *very* widespread, and matched reasonably well to failing hard drive or failing memory - system freeze, spinning beach-ball forever, can?t read directory, etc. etc. etc. On the G3, I rebooted in single-user mode and actually got part way through the output of ?ps -aux? in one case before freezing. However it did respond to Ctl-C and would then do a ?ps -a? no problem, just no ?ps -aux?. We were a bit silly, didn?t read our Uverse email, and didn?t test other systems before hooking more old systems into the network - which then didn?t work. We were panicing about viruses, pulling hair out, sacrificing goats ... >> >> Systems affected were : >> >> iMac G3 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - ethernet >> PowerBook G4 Mac OS X 10.4.11 - wi-fi >> iMac 2011 intel Mac OS X 10.6.8 - wi-fi >> >> Apologies if this is a known bug, but it really puzzled us for a while because the effects were so systemic; I hope I can prevent anybody else from getting a nice new (needless) hard drive like the 2011 iMac did? >> >> - Mark >> 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell >> From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Sat Mar 26 19:52:05 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 20:52:05 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 M873 ROM card info? Message-ID: <20160327005205.0675F18C0A4@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Does anyone know of _any_ information about this series of cards? > ... search as I can, I don't seem OK, it turns out I needed to be looking for "BM873"; under that, it appears to be fairly well documented (prints, TM, etc). > Known variants are the -YA, -YB and -YJ. Most of the later variants are for use on the 11/40 which is the front end of a KL10; there's a PDP-10 document online (KL873.MEM) which lists them all in some detail. Does anyone have a -YB we can dump? (I have a -YA, and will dump that in a few moments, here.) Noel From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Sun Mar 27 05:19:20 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 06:19:20 -0400 Subject: PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list on eBay Message-ID: <3182f3.1c9f357.44290da8@aol.com> Lyle would love a scan of it! Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/26/2016 9:59:18 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, lbickley at bickleywest.com writes: On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > Hey, all you PDP-8 people: there's a PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list going > on eBay, not very much: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/272187153709 > > I saw it go past once before, figured someone would notice and grab > it, but I guess not... > > Noel Thanks, I bought it :) Lyle -- Lyle Bickley Bickley Consulting West Inc. http://bickleywest.com "Black holes are where God is dividing by zero" From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Sun Mar 27 06:37:55 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 12:37:55 +0100 Subject: PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list on eBay In-Reply-To: <3182f3.1c9f357.44290da8@aol.com> References: <3182f3.1c9f357.44290da8@aol.com> Message-ID: <56F7C613.7010406@btinternet.com> On 27/03/2016 11:19, COURYHOUSE at aol.com wrote: > Lyle would love a scan of it! > Ed# _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) > > > In a message dated 3/26/2016 9:59:18 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time, > lbickley at bickleywest.com writes: > > On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 12:50:02 -0400 (EDT) > jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) wrote: > >> Hey, all you PDP-8 people: there's a PDP-8/E-F-M OEM price list going >> on eBay, not very much: >> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/272187153709 >> >> I saw it go past once before, figured someone would notice and grab >> it, but I guess not... >> >> Noel > Thanks, I bought it :) > > Lyle Well I was a DEC sales engineer in 1973. I'm not sure what that was for. The PDP-8 product line price list was about six inches of 132 col listing The standing joke was you were not allowed to take it out of the office. It was so heavy you couldn't have taken it any way. OEM deals were quantity driven discounts and varied all over the place. Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Sat Mar 26 06:54:28 2016 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 11:54:28 +0000 Subject: RSX-11 trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Looks as if the @ task, the indirect command processor, is either defective, or was not linked correctly for this system. Check the system generation manual; there are hints on how to replace it. This is for instance necessary for a sysgen (INS a /BIG version of it). If this fails, the TSK is broken. The sysgen rebuilds IND from an OLB regularly; there is a BLD file for this. You don't need to run a full sysgen for it (infact, with a broken @ processor, you can't). Regards Holger Mit TouchDown von meinem Android-Telefon gesendet (www.nitrodesk.com) -----Original Message----- From: supervinx [supervinx at libero.it] Received: Donnerstag, 24 M?rz 2016, 23:30 To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] Subject: RSX-11 trouble Hi! Got a MicroPDP 11 plus. It seems to be misconfigured. It can't execute .CMD files, reporting Task "...AT." terminated Load failure. Read error No disk errors are reported with ELI DU0:/SH Disk seems to work: I can run .TSK files. The file STARTUP.CMD isn't read at all. Any hints? Which file is executed right before STARTUP.CMD? I see two RED commands and a MOU before it tries to read [1,2]STARTUP.CMD and reports the aforementioned error. Thanks From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 09:05:58 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:05:58 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 10:50 AM, william degnan wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 8:52 AM, Dr. Roland Schregle < > roland.schregle at gmail.com> wrote: > >> On Tue, 22 Mar 2016 13:45:38 +0100, John H. Reinhardt < >> johnhreinhardt at yahoo.com> wrote: >> >> >> Anyone can also get a free membership at Encompasserve by ssh to >>> eisner.decus.org and creating an account. >>> >> >> Good to know -- many thanks, Peter! Most of the ones I tried were long >> defunct. >> >> >> --GT >> >> >> > To get a MULTINET license, you need the VMS checksum. For my version of VMS, there is no way that I know of to get the checksum of VMS, I tried everything. I even dumped the license file to look manually. I could see remains of MULTINET in there, but as far as I could tell I could not see any checksum for anything installed in my system. I am trying to get a working PAK for MUTLINET 4.1: Process Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From iamcamiel at gmail.com Fri Mar 25 13:24:36 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2016 19:24:36 +0100 Subject: Looking for information about TEP FTI990, Eyring PDOS Message-ID: <04f301d186c3$9672b6a0$c35823e0$@gmail.com> Hello everyone, Over the course of the past few days I've made a few repairs to a TEP FTI990, a TMS9900 based industrial microcomputer built on eurocards. I've now got it to the point where it boots and runs Eyring's PDOS operating system. I have a description and pictures of the system here: http://vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/35-tms9900/69-tep-fti990, and an account of the repairs I did here: http://vaxbarn.com/index.php/collection/35-tms9900/70-tep-fti990-repair I have a copy of PDOS version 2.4C, as well as a PDOS programmer's reference manual. I am looking for additional materials: TEP and PDOS manuals, and floppies with additional programs. I'd like to get in touch with anyone who has some knowledge of these systems. Kind regards, Camiel Vanderhoeven From billdegnan at gmail.com Sat Mar 26 09:44:12 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:44:12 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: > > >>> >>> >> > To get a MULTINET license, you need the VMS checksum. > > For my version of VMS, there is no way that I know of to get the checksum > of VMS, I tried everything. I even dumped the license file to look > manually. I could see remains of MULTINET in there, but as far as I could > tell I could not see any checksum for anything installed in my system. I > am trying to get a working PAK for MUTLINET 4.1: > > Process Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 > > -- > > > First of all, for anyone interested I ran the following command in an effort to fix a totally different problem (explaining *why* would not help at this point): $ @MULTINET:PAK-DELETE I had recorded everything I could, including what I thought was the license key before I did this, with the thought I could just re-install. I rebooted and since then I have not been able to get into multinet. The next step would have been to run this command, but given multinet was not working, I did *not* run $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE so MULTINET is still in the license database, at least I see it when I DUMP the file. I am not sure if running @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE cleans the PAK info out of the database after you delete the PAK from [???] somewhere. Great. So I went to the place to request a new checksum. Problem is they want my VAX checksum first. I can't get that value, so I am stuck I tried commands $ SHOW LICENSE [everything there is] I can get an output, but CHECKSUM is not listed like it is mentioned here: http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=10&thread_id=230 Is there a way to HEX edit some kind of hack to trick the system into thinking the license is OK? A bit to flip? Everything was working perfectly before I ran that @#$%! delete command! multinet had a working IP and FQDM and email was working, etc. Anyone coming to VCF East? I will bring the system to exhibit. It still has DECnet and BASIC keys running. I will improvise. Bill From blairrya at cse.msu.edu Sat Mar 26 13:30:20 2016 From: blairrya at cse.msu.edu (Ryan Blair) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 11:30:20 -0700 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <79a32968577b49fe35b4bfc3d646819f.squirrel@mail.cse.msu.edu> >> To get a MULTINET license, you need the VMS checksum. > $ SHOW LICENSE [everything there is] > > I can get an output, but CHECKSUM is not listed like it is mentioned here: > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=10&thread_id=230 (replace PAK names as needed, you might have OPENVMS-HOBBYIST or need the base VAX-VMS, depending on how you had paid-for PAKs or pure hobbyist, etc. etc.) !$ dump out a DCL-flavored copy of the installed PAK !$ lose the /PROCEDURE if you just want readable, not pasteable $ LICENSE ISSUE /PROCEDURE VAX-VMS !$ re-enable the license, since ISSUE'ing it marks it disabled $ LICENSE ENABLE VAX-VMS This works on VMS 5.5-2H4 (which is also capable of handling the current-ish version of Multinet, v5.5). -Ryan From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Sat Mar 26 16:24:06 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2016 21:24:06 +0000 (WET) Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sat, 26 Mar 2016 10:44:12 -0400" References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> Bill, > > >> > >> > > > To get a MULTINET license, you need the VMS checksum. > > For my version of VMS, there is no way that I know of to get the checksum > of VMS, I tried everything. I even dumped the license file to look > manually. I could see remains of MULTINET in there, but as far as I could > tell I could not see any checksum for anything installed in my system. I > am trying to get a working PAK for MUTLINET 4.1: > I guess by "get the checksum of VMS", you mean find the checksum that was used to validate your current VMS license. It is possible to do this (I outlined how to do it in an email to you a week or two ago) but this is not what you want to do. To get a MULTINET hobbyist license, you first need to get a VMS hobbyist license from HP. It is the checksum you get when you receive the VMS license that you use to apply for the MULTINET hobbyist license. > > > Process Software MultiNet V4.1 Rev A, MicroVAX 3100, VAX/VMS V5.5-2 > > > > -- > > > > > > > > First of all, for anyone interested I ran the following command in an > effort to fix a totally different problem (explaining *why* would not help > at this point): > > $ @MULTINET:PAK-DELETE > Bad idea. Almost never a useful thing to do. Don't do that. > > I had recorded everything I could, including what I thought was the license > key before I did this, with the thought I could just re-install. I > rebooted and since then I have not been able to get into multinet. > > The next step would have been to run this command, but given multinet was > not working, I did *not* run > $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE > > so MULTINET is still in the license database, at least I see it when I DUMP > the file. I am not sure if running @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE cleans the PAK > info out of the database after you delete the PAK from [???] somewhere. > $ @SYS$UPDATE:VMSLICENSE is just a command procedure for managing licenses. It gives you a menu of license related tasks to choose from. It won't delete anything unless you pick the DELETE option. Don't pick the DELETE option. > > Great. So I went to the place to request a new checksum. Problem is they > want my VAX checksum first. I can't get that value, so I am stuck > They don't want the checksum of your existing VMS license. The want the checksum you get when you get a hobbyist VMS license. > > I tried commands > > $ SHOW LICENSE [everything there is] > > I can get an output, but CHECKSUM is not listed like it is mentioned here: > http://www.openvmshobbyist.com/forum/viewthread.php?forum_id=10&thread_id=230 > > Is there a way to HEX edit some kind of hack to trick the system into > thinking the license is OK? A bit to flip? Everything was working > perfectly before I ran that @#$%! delete command! multinet had a working > IP and FQDM and email was working, etc. > You don't need to do anything like that. (It is possible to get the checksum for a license in your license database without resorting to hackery, but you don't need THAT checksum. You need the checksum from a VMS hobbyist license.) Regards, Peter Coghlan. From supervinx at libero.it Sun Mar 27 12:13:31 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:13:31 +0200 Subject: R: RE: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: Thanks! I've to dig it, since my RSX experience amounts to two hours. The IND should have worked before, since there are a lot of user generated .CMD files. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 21:43:00 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 19:43:00 -0700 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 13, 2016 at 1:39 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > The Multics distribution includes ISOLTS, a surprisingly complete and > pedantic processor test program. > > It is unhappy with our emulated floating point. > > I've abstracted the instruction out of the emulator and embedded it in a > standalone test harness that runs the 47 tests. > > https://sourceforge.net/projects/dps8m/files/drop/Charles/ufa47.c > > Any insights, suggestions for algorithms, reading material would be > greatly appreciated. > > After many helpful suggestions and analyses, the missing piece of the rounding algorithim has been identified: Only round if the mantissa was shifted more then 71 bits. Many thanks, -- Charles From mtapley at swri.edu Sun Mar 27 23:36:37 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 04:36:37 +0000 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.6 In-Reply-To: <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> Message-ID: <298A8349-C9DB-4CC6-94D8-BF3FA351FEAD@swri.edu> On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:19 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > Just curious if something specifically is broken or non-fixable with the 10.6.8 IPv6 stack? > > I'm specifically wondering if you did any troubleshooting to resolve this? Or if just disabling IPv6 was the quick'n'dirty answer? I?m pretty helpless with networking, so I can?t comment on either AT&T's or Apple?s implementations. As you say, disabling IPv6 was the Quick?n?dirty answer. If network-aware folks have tests to suggest, I can use the G3 on 10.4.8 as a guinea pig. We figured this out Friday night; my wife plans to contact AT&T (and the Apple Genius Bar) Monday. I?ll report if they have any suggestions. I will say that my MacBook Pro (definitely off-topic) never hiccupped, and it is running OS X 10.9.5, so somewhere between 10.6.8 and 10.9.5, Apple?s implementation seems to have changed to be compatible with AT&T?s (new) implementation. From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 09:21:05 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:21:05 -0400 Subject: PDP-12 Restoration at the RICM Message-ID: We are now working on the RK8F controller and RK05 drive. The RK8F has special M7104 and M7105 boards so it will work in the DW8E Omnibus-Posibus chassis. The MAINDEC-08-DHRKA RK8E Diskless Control Test showed that a data-break to address 0000 worked, but did not work to address 7777. After about 4 hours of debugging we found a dirty connection on an M7102 board in the DW8E chassis. This prevented one of the CA signals from the RK8F from being driven onto the Posibus MA. The DHRKA diag now passes, so much of the RK8K and the DW8E are working. We bought a new NiCd battery pack for the RK05 and new weather strip to replace the blower to card cage, and plenum to disk pack seals. There is also a power supply problem that shows up after the RK05 had been powered on for 10 minutes that we need to fix. We have a disk pack that came with the PDP-12, but we don't know if it has LAPS-DIAL or OS/12 installed. Maybe we will solve that mystery in a few weeks. -- Michael Thompson From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 09:33:16 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:33:16 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: > > > > I guess by "get the checksum of VMS", you mean find the checksum that was > used > to validate your current VMS license. It is possible to do this (I > outlined > how to do it in an email to you a week or two ago) but this is not what you > want to do. > > To get a MULTINET hobbyist license, you first need to get a VMS hobbyist > license from HP. It is the checksum you get when you receive the VMS > license > that you use to apply for the MULTINET hobbyist license. > > Understood. thanks. I also see that I need all of the correct parameters to generate the correct checksum or the software will not work correctly, if I now understand correctly. I can't just stick in any old checksum, the program that installes the PAK asks questions like issuer, producer, availability, etc. b -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From billdegnan at gmail.com Sun Mar 27 09:40:59 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:40:59 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Sun, Mar 27, 2016 at 10:33 AM, william degnan wrote: > >> >> I guess by "get the checksum of VMS", you mean find the checksum that was >> used >> to validate your current VMS license. It is possible to do this (I >> outlined >> how to do it in an email to you a week or two ago) but this is not what >> you >> want to do. >> >> To get a MULTINET hobbyist license, you first need to get a VMS hobbyist >> license from HP. It is the checksum you get when you receive the VMS >> license >> that you use to apply for the MULTINET hobbyist license. >> >> > > Understood. thanks. I also see that I need all of the correct parameters > to generate the correct checksum or the software will not work correctly, > if I now understand correctly. I can't just stick in any old checksum, the > program that installes the PAK asks questions like issuer, producer, > availability, etc. > > b > > -- > > One other thing to add, when I wrote down the info from the license originally I made a little note on a scrap of paper, with the values I saw at a point before I deleted the key originally MULTINET TGV 1 A-10-098-116512 (authorization?) G (?) H (?) AA-10098-116512 (product token?) I am not sure what the Hardware_ID is or if I need it, you're asked a bunch of questions when you install the PAK. b From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 28 09:26:46 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:26:46 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. Message-ID: <20160328142646.2D4F118C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Charles Anthony > the missing piece of the rounding algorithim has been identified: > Only round if the mantissa was shifted more then 71 bits. Wow. I'm really impressed that they implemented that in hardware, back then! Then again, they threw so many gates at the Multics CPU, I guess they figured a few more wouldn't matter... ;-) Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Mon Mar 28 09:32:52 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 10:32:52 -0400 (EDT) Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) Message-ID: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Jerry Weiss > Disabling IPV6 was the cure. I was _extremely_ amused to hear that. (Backstory: I'm a long-time detractor of IPv6 - I've always thought it's a rolling ball of digestive byproduct, to be blunt. In fact, if I had still been on the IESG when it came around, I'd have canned it. Unfortunately, I'd resigned a while before [for unrelated reasons], something that in hindsight I've greatly regretted, since it removed my ability to can IPv6. So to hear that IPv6 is _still_, all these years later, not that crucial to useful functionality, is very satisfactory to me - it says my assessment was right on the nose. Long may IPv6 fail to be successful! The single biggest/most expensive IT failure of all time?) Noel From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 09:45:19 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 07:45:19 -0700 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Jerry Weiss > > > Disabling IPV6 was the cure. > > I was _extremely_ amused to hear that. > > (Backstory: I'm a long-time detractor of IPv6 - I've always thought it's a > rolling ball of digestive byproduct, to be blunt. In fact, if I had still > been on the IESG when it came around, I'd have canned it. Unfortunately, > I'd > resigned a while before [for unrelated reasons], something that in > hindsight > I've greatly regretted, since it removed my ability to can IPv6. So to hear > that IPv6 is _still_, all these years later, not that crucial to useful > functionality, is very satisfactory to me - it says my assessment was right > on the nose. Long may IPv6 fail to be successful! The single biggest/most > expensive IT failure of all time?) > I think that having HTTP use DNS was the big one; it changed the role of DNS from finding computers by name to the being the innocent victim of the land rush of domain name marketing. Followed closely by NAT being used make vast portions of the internet dark. -- Charles From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 10:32:47 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 08:32:47 -0700 Subject: Mainframe floating point math implementation. In-Reply-To: <20160328142646.2D4F118C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160328142646.2D4F118C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 7:26 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > > From: Charles Anthony > > > the missing piece of the rounding algorithim has been identified: > > Only round if the mantissa was shifted more then 71 bits. > > Wow. I'm really impressed that they implemented that in hardware, back > then! > > Then again, they threw so many gates at the Multics CPU, I guess they > figured > a few more wouldn't matter... ;-) > > The floating point actually predates Multics (GE-635 I believe); I suspect that the driving force for sophisticated floating point was the growing 'scientific computing' market, remember this was Cold War era and the military was spending piles of money on nuclear weapon research. (I don't have any documentation, just my informal understanding of mainframe history.) -- Charles Noel > From aloha at blastpuppy.com Mon Mar 28 13:33:02 2016 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:33:02 -0700 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: References: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <70483782-07ED-4B0E-BB25-3E810175AAC1@blastpuppy.com> > > On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > I think that having HTTP use DNS was the big one; it changed the role of > DNS from finding computers by name to the being the innocent victim of the > land rush of domain name marketing. > > Followed closely by NAT being used make vast portions of the internet dark. > > -- Charles What would you have done in place of NAT? there isn?t enough IPv4 address space to go around, and has not been my entire time in the tech industry. Robert Johnson -- Gtalk/Jabber:aloha at blastpuppy.com AIM:AlohaWulf Yahoo:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. From aloha at blastpuppy.com Mon Mar 28 13:35:30 2016 From: aloha at blastpuppy.com (Robert Johnson) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 11:35:30 -0700 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <06389752-F328-4C18-A999-46E43B038825@blastpuppy.com> > > On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Jerry Weiss > >> Disabling IPV6 was the cure. > > I was _extremely_ amused to hear that. > > (Backstory: I'm a long-time detractor of IPv6 - I've always thought it's a > rolling ball of digestive byproduct, to be blunt. In fact, if I had still > been on the IESG when it came around, I'd have canned it. Unfortunately, I'd > resigned a while before [for unrelated reasons], something that in hindsight > I've greatly regretted, since it removed my ability to can IPv6. So to hear > that IPv6 is _still_, all these years later, not that crucial to useful > functionality, is very satisfactory to me - it says my assessment was right > on the nose. Long may IPv6 fail to be successful! The single biggest/most > expensive IT failure of all time?) > > Noel So, I?m curious what your objections to v6 are (I know there are some very good technical objections, because v6 is unlike v4 enough to be a breaking change from a programatic point of view) - or rather, how would you solve the shortage of IP addresses? Robert Johnson -- Gtalk/Jabber:aloha at blastpuppy.com AIM:AlohaWulf Yahoo:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. From jwest at classiccmp.org Mon Mar 28 13:41:30 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 13:41:30 -0500 Subject: OT RE: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) Message-ID: <000401d18921$71de5fa0$559b1ee0$@classiccmp.org> TSIA -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Robert Johnson Sent: Monday, March 28, 2016 1:36 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Cc: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Subject: Re: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) > > On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:32 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > >> From: Jerry Weiss > >> Disabling IPV6 was the cure. > > I was _extremely_ amused to hear that. > > (Backstory: I'm a long-time detractor of IPv6 - I've always thought > it's a rolling ball of digestive byproduct, to be blunt. In fact, if I > had still been on the IESG when it came around, I'd have canned it. > Unfortunately, I'd resigned a while before [for unrelated reasons], > something that in hindsight I've greatly regretted, since it removed > my ability to can IPv6. So to hear that IPv6 is _still_, all these > years later, not that crucial to useful functionality, is very > satisfactory to me - it says my assessment was right on the nose. Long > may IPv6 fail to be successful! The single biggest/most expensive IT > failure of all time?) > > Noel So, I?m curious what your objections to v6 are (I know there are some very good technical objections, because v6 is unlike v4 enough to be a breaking change from a programatic point of view) - or rather, how would you solve the shortage of IP addresses? Robert Johnson -- Gtalk/Jabber:aloha at blastpuppy.com AIM:AlohaWulf Yahoo:AlohaWulf Skype:AlohaWolf Telephone:+1-562-286-4255 C*NET: 18219881 Email:aloha at blastpuppy.com Email:alohawolf at gmail.com -- "Follow the path of the unsafe, independent thinker. Expose your ideas to the danger of controversy. Speak your mind and fear less the label of "crackpot" than the stigma of conformity." - Thomas J. Watson Sr. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Mon Mar 28 14:08:29 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 12:08:29 -0700 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: <70483782-07ED-4B0E-BB25-3E810175AAC1@blastpuppy.com> References: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <70483782-07ED-4B0E-BB25-3E810175AAC1@blastpuppy.com> Message-ID: On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Robert Johnson wrote: > > > > On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Charles Anthony > wrote: > > > > I think that having HTTP use DNS was the big one; it changed the role of > > DNS from finding computers by name to the being the innocent victim of > the > > land rush of domain name marketing. > > > > Followed closely by NAT being used make vast portions of the internet > dark. > > > > -- Charles > > What would you have done in place of NAT? there isn?t enough IPv4 address > space to go around, and has not been my entire time in the tech industry. > What they did was 'NAT plus IPV6 will solve everything.' It seems like NAT gave them enough breathing room to fumble IPV6 through feature creep and enabled slow uptake. The is no pressure to leave NAT; the vast majority of the NATed users have bought into the client/server model of centrally managed services and are happy surfing the web and putting their credit card numbers in the cloud; the ISPs are raking in the money. NAT is great for that, but if you and I want to do peer-to-peer, we are out of luck. I don't have a problem with NAT per se w.r.t. address exhaustion; I have a problem with it apparently being deployed as a solution, and not as a stop-gap. -- Charles From mtapley at swri.edu Mon Mar 28 14:50:43 2016 From: mtapley at swri.edu (Tapley, Mark) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 19:50:43 +0000 Subject: OT: was: Re: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) In-Reply-To: References: <20160328143252.78E9318C0B6@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <70483782-07ED-4B0E-BB25-3E810175AAC1@blastpuppy.com> Message-ID: <09796177-F957-4724-AF1E-482396BAAFE5@swri.edu> On Mar 28, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > On Mon, Mar 28, 2016 at 11:33 AM, Robert Johnson > wrote: > >>> >>> On Mar 28, 2016, at 7:45 AM, Charles Anthony >> wrote: >>> >>> I think that having HTTP use DNS was the big one; it changed the role of >>> DNS from finding computers by name to the being the innocent victim of >> the >>> land rush of domain name marketing. >>> >>> Followed closely by NAT being used make vast portions of the internet >> dark. >>> >>> -- Charles >> >> What would you have done in place of NAT? there isn?t enough IPv4 address >> space to go around, and has not been my entire time in the tech industry. >> > > What they did was 'NAT plus IPV6 will solve everything.' > > It seems like NAT gave them enough breathing room to fumble IPV6 through > feature creep and enabled slow uptake. > > The is no pressure to leave NAT; the vast majority of the NATed users have > bought into the client/server model of centrally managed services and are > happy surfing the web and putting their credit card numbers in the cloud; > the ISPs are raking in the money. NAT is great for that, but if you and I > want to do peer-to-peer, we are out of luck. > > I don't have a problem with NAT per se w.r.t. address exhaustion; I have a > problem with it apparently being deployed as a solution, and not as a > stop-gap. > > -- Charles All, Didn?t quite realize (maybe should have) the discussion I?d kick off. I was thinking ?classic? in regard to my OS 10.4 machines which are well over a decade old. The discussion is fascinating, but ... Relabelled the thread ?OT? because i think it?s maybe not germane to ?classic? computing. Please reply to this title (or better, off-list) if you agree. - Mark 210-522-6025 office 210-379-4635 cell From rick at rickmurphy.net Mon Mar 28 19:00:40 2016 From: rick at rickmurphy.net (Rick Murphy) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 20:00:40 -0400 Subject: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.6 In-Reply-To: <298A8349-C9DB-4CC6-94D8-BF3FA351FEAD@swri.edu> References: <02a501d1866f$20e5adb0$62b10910$@ntlworld.com> <02cc01d18691$fa276240$ee7626c0$@ntlworld.com> <56F559A2.5090807@sydex.com> <02f001d186bd$ffdd01f0$ff9705d0$@ntlworld.com> <032a01d186dc$dd5ea6f0$981bf4d0$@ntlworld.com> <56F5B856.4080300@sydex.com> <033201d186eb$92bafea0$b830fbe0$@ntlworld.com> <7F38838C-DD3B-4FE6-AF1D-70B2FA156E65@swri.edu> <56F70AEF.2030700@oryx.us> <298A8349-C9DB-4CC6-94D8-BF3FA351FEAD@swri.edu> Message-ID: <201603290001.u2T01pW1026036@rickmurphy.net> At 12:36 AM 3/28/2016, Tapley, Mark wrote: >On Mar 26, 2016, at 5:19 PM, Jerry Kemp wrote: > > > Just curious if something specifically is broken or non-fixable > with the 10.6.8 IPv6 stack?] No, there's nothing broken with OSX. I have a functioning IPv6 network here at home, with OSX 10.4 and 10.6 and a few iOS variants which don't have any problems. It's sad that they can't get this right. I'm on Verizon FiOS which doesn't have IPv6 at all. Seems like these carriers just don't want to give us what we need. Oh, I just figured it out: they're providing "Unlimited" IPv6. :) -Rick From spacewar at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 00:47:30 2016 From: spacewar at gmail.com (Eric Smith) Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2016 23:47:30 -0600 Subject: Z8-02 demo PCB (was Re: Running a Z8-02 MPD on a breadboard) Message-ID: On Tue, May 12, 2015 at 1:41 AM, Eric Smith wrote: > I designed a simple QUIP adapter for use with solderless breadboards, > and wired up a Z8-02 MPD along with a 28C16 EEPROM for the program > memory, a 62256 static RAM, address latch, and decoder. I programmed a > copy of the Z8671 Basic/Debug interpreter into the EEPROM. To my > amazement, it worked the first time. > > Photos: > https://www.flickr.com/photos/22368471 at N04/sets/72157652653732622 I had a PCB made of basically the same circuit, with a TLC7705 voltage supervisor/reset circuit added, and a stuff option for an actual RS-232 port. I've added photos to the album linked above. Unlike the solderless breadboard version, it did not work the first time, and I haven't yet figured out what's wrong with it. The reset circuit seems to work correctly. I should have added a bus connector for I/O expansion. I was in a hurry and it had to be under 100mm square to get the boards made inexpensively. Rather than soldering in the exceedingly rare 3M QUIP socket, I soldered down four 16-position single in line machined-pin sockets, and plugged the QUIP socket into those. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 29 06:19:01 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 07:19:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error Message-ID: <20160329111901.4C84218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So, something I just found out the hard way, while debugging another 'situation' with a PDP-11/04: The KY11-LB Programmer's Console maintainence manual contains a major error, in describing the configuration of the 20-conductor flat cable that connectors the front panel and the UNIBUS interface module (M7859). This is covered in Chapter 9, "Installation", which includes two figures, Figures 9-4 and 9-5. Those figures show the 20-conductor flat cable with the red edge stripe toward the outer edge of the front panel PCB (correct), and also toward the outer edge of the M7859 (WRONG). On the M7859, the red stripe edge needs to be oriented _away_ from the outer edge of the board. If it is plugged in as shown in these figures, the machine will not operate: the four 'RUN/SR DISP/BUS ERR/MAINT' lights will be on, but nothing else, and it will not respond to any keys. Fortunately, plugging the cable in reversed does not damage anything; simply reverse the cable. Noel From j_hoppe at t-online.de Tue Mar 29 06:27:31 2016 From: j_hoppe at t-online.de (=?UTF-8?Q?J=c3=b6rg_Hoppe?=) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 13:27:31 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error In-Reply-To: <20160329111901.4C84218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160329111901.4C84218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: <56FA66A3.8030709@t-online.de> Noel, this is something every '34 owner must go through. Welcome to the club ;-) Joerg Am 29.03.2016 um 13:19 schrieb Noel Chiappa: > So, something I just found out the hard way, while debugging another > 'situation' with a PDP-11/04: > > The KY11-LB Programmer's Console maintainence manual contains a major error, > in describing the configuration of the 20-conductor flat cable that connectors > the front panel and the UNIBUS interface module (M7859). This is covered in > Chapter 9, "Installation", which includes two figures, Figures 9-4 and 9-5. > > Those figures show the 20-conductor flat cable with the red edge stripe > toward the outer edge of the front panel PCB (correct), and also toward the > outer edge of the M7859 (WRONG). On the M7859, the red stripe edge needs to > be oriented _away_ from the outer edge of the board. > > If it is plugged in as shown in these figures, the machine will not operate: > the four 'RUN/SR DISP/BUS ERR/MAINT' lights will be on, but nothing else, and > it will not respond to any keys. Fortunately, plugging the cable in reversed > does not damage anything; simply reverse the cable. > > Noel > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Tue Mar 29 07:10:28 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:10:28 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error Message-ID: <20160329121028.05E9E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: J?rg Hoppe > this is something every '34 owner must go through. Urrr, hadn't thought of that! Sigh. I wonder if it'd been mentioned here before, and I'd missed it because it was before I joined? Luckily, having that cable in backwards doesn't harm anything... Well, hopefully this: http://gunkies.org/wiki/KY11-LB_Programmer's_Console will save at least some other people... Noel From iamcamiel at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 08:13:04 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:13:04 +0200 Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error In-Reply-To: <56FA66A3.8030709@t-online.de> References: <20160329111901.4C84218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56FA66A3.8030709@t-online.de> Message-ID: <05bb01d189bc$bdb83cc0$3928b640$@gmail.com> It's done on purpose, sort of an initiation rite. All traces of this conversation will be wiped out so future /34 owners won't miss out on this! ;-) Camiel. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J?rg Hoppe Sent: dinsdag 29 maart 2016 13:28 To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error Noel, this is something every '34 owner must go through. Welcome to the club ;-) Joerg Am 29.03.2016 um 13:19 schrieb Noel Chiappa: > So, something I just found out the hard way, while debugging another > 'situation' with a PDP-11/04: > > The KY11-LB Programmer's Console maintainence manual contains a major > error, in describing the configuration of the 20-conductor flat cable > that connectors the front panel and the UNIBUS interface module > (M7859). This is covered in Chapter 9, "Installation", which includes two figures, Figures 9-4 and 9-5. > > Those figures show the 20-conductor flat cable with the red edge > stripe toward the outer edge of the front panel PCB (correct), and > also toward the outer edge of the M7859 (WRONG). On the M7859, the red > stripe edge needs to be oriented _away_ from the outer edge of the board. > > If it is plugged in as shown in these figures, the machine will not operate: > the four 'RUN/SR DISP/BUS ERR/MAINT' lights will be on, but nothing > else, and it will not respond to any keys. Fortunately, plugging the > cable in reversed does not damage anything; simply reverse the cable. > > Noel > From derschjo at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 10:36:41 2016 From: derschjo at gmail.com (Josh Dersch) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 08:36:41 -0700 Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error In-Reply-To: <05bb01d189bc$bdb83cc0$3928b640$@gmail.com> References: <20160329111901.4C84218C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> <56FA66A3.8030709@t-online.de> <05bb01d189bc$bdb83cc0$3928b640$@gmail.com> Message-ID: Consider yourself lucky -- when I hit this issue about this time last year (maybe it's seasonal?) I got excoriated off-list by a particularly irate listmember for not having the foresight to just try reversing the cable before asking on the list... :) - Josh On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 6:13 AM, Camiel Vanderhoeven wrote: > It's done on purpose, sort of an initiation rite. All traces of this > conversation will be wiped out so future /34 owners won't miss out on this! > ;-) > > Camiel. > > -----Original Message----- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of J?rg > Hoppe > Sent: dinsdag 29 maart 2016 13:28 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk at classiccmp.org> > Subject: Re: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error > > Noel, > > this is something every '34 owner must go through. Welcome to the club ;-) > > Joerg > > Am 29.03.2016 um 13:19 schrieb Noel Chiappa: > > So, something I just found out the hard way, while debugging another > > 'situation' with a PDP-11/04: > > > > The KY11-LB Programmer's Console maintainence manual contains a major > > error, in describing the configuration of the 20-conductor flat cable > > that connectors the front panel and the UNIBUS interface module > > (M7859). This is covered in Chapter 9, "Installation", which includes two > figures, Figures 9-4 and 9-5. > > > > Those figures show the 20-conductor flat cable with the red edge > > stripe toward the outer edge of the front panel PCB (correct), and > > also toward the outer edge of the M7859 (WRONG). On the M7859, the red > > stripe edge needs to be oriented _away_ from the outer edge of the board. > > > > If it is plugged in as shown in these figures, the machine will not > operate: > > the four 'RUN/SR DISP/BUS ERR/MAINT' lights will be on, but nothing > > else, and it will not respond to any keys. Fortunately, plugging the > > cable in reversed does not damage anything; simply reverse the cable. > > > > Noel > > > > From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 10:49:11 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 11:49:11 -0400 Subject: PDP-11/04-34 Programmer's Console manual error In-Reply-To: <20160329121028.05E9E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160329121028.05E9E18C0AA@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:10 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > Luckily, having that cable in backwards doesn't harm anything... DEC was really good about things not being damaged from backwards cables. Much better than most vendors. I'm sure someone can come up with a horror story, but mostly, it's good. What _was_ bad was some of the OMNIBUS boards in the PDP-8/e, specifically, the quad boards with 8 fingers (because they attached to their neighbors via H851 connector blocks) and no maroon/green plastic handles. I heard a tale from someone that Field Circus plugged in a board upside-down into their machine and toasted some stuff. -ethan From supervinx at libero.it Tue Mar 29 12:30:30 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 19:30:30 +0200 Subject: RSX-11 trouble In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1459272630.2911.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno sab, 26/03/2016 alle 11.54 +0000, Veit, Holger ha scritto: > Looks as if the @ task, the indirect command processor, is either defective, or was not linked correctly for this system. Check the system generation manual; there are hints on how to replace it. This is for instance necessary for a sysgen (INS a /BIG version of it). If this fails, the TSK is broken. The sysgen rebuilds IND from an OLB regularly; there is a BLD file for this. You don't need to run a full sysgen for it (infact, with a broken @ processor, you can't). > Regards Holger > > Mit TouchDown von meinem Android-Telefon gesendet (www.nitrodesk.com) > > -----Original Message----- > From: supervinx [supervinx at libero.it] > Received: Donnerstag, 24 M?rz 2016, 23:30 > To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] > Subject: RSX-11 trouble > > Hi! > Got a MicroPDP 11 plus. > It seems to be misconfigured. > It can't execute .CMD files, reporting > Task "...AT." terminated > Load failure. Read error > > No disk errors are reported with ELI DU0:/SH > > Disk seems to work: I can run .TSK files. > The file STARTUP.CMD isn't read at all. > > Any hints? Which file is executed right before STARTUP.CMD? > I see two RED commands and a MOU before it tries to read [1,2]STARTUP.CMD and reports the aforementioned error. > > Thanks > Well... no IND.TSK is present :( May be they had space issues? From geneb at deltasoft.com Tue Mar 29 14:34:09 2016 From: geneb at deltasoft.com (geneb) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:34:09 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... Message-ID: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk It's pretty entertaining. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 29 15:37:13 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:37:13 +0200 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> I watched it earlier today and it reminded me a bit about myself. At least that one time I, with help of friends, rescued a PDP-11/34, eclipse in two racks and VAX-11/750 with peripherals from a house with a collapsed floor. /P On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:34:09PM -0700, geneb wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk > > It's pretty entertaining. :) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From pontus at Update.UU.SE Tue Mar 29 15:40:11 2016 From: pontus at Update.UU.SE (Pontus Pihlgren) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:40:11 +0200 Subject: Old PC Boards and some Books to go In-Reply-To: <20160329160919.8A21A2073C39@huey.classiccmp.org> References: <20160329160919.8A21A2073C39@huey.classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <20160329204010.GB24938@Update.UU.SE> Hi Some gems in there. Will you ship? How much do you want for the DECsystem-10 books? /P On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:08:28PM -0400, Dave Mitton wrote: > Guys, > still trying to clean out my basement... recently I've gathered a bunch > of PC cards from over the years. > and some of my old text and data books. Still working on listing some more > and some various kits of PC software. > I'm not assuming this is worth much, just rather pass it on, than dispose. > > I've put a list (so far) of the stuff on this web page. I have photos of > the PC cards if interested. > http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html > > Dave Mitton, > North Andover, MA > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From dave at mitton.com Tue Mar 29 11:08:28 2016 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:08:28 -0400 Subject: Old PC Boards and some Books to go Message-ID: Guys, still trying to clean out my basement... recently I've gathered a bunch of PC cards from over the years. and some of my old text and data books. Still working on listing some more and some various kits of PC software. I'm not assuming this is worth much, just rather pass it on, than dispose. I've put a list (so far) of the stuff on this web page. I have photos of the PC cards if interested. http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html Dave Mitton, North Andover, MA --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From dave at mitton.com Tue Mar 29 11:30:35 2016 From: dave at mitton.com (Dave Mitton) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 12:30:35 -0400 Subject: Seiko Wrist Terminal RC-1000 software ?? Message-ID: Another old thing I've been interested in selling, is my SEIKO RC-1000 Wrist Terminal. This watch has a two line 12 character display, where you could also load text and alarm/reminder data. I used it for phone lists and meeting reminders. It comes with a DB25 cable that connects to the watch to download data. Example on eBay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/RETRO-1980-s-SEIKO-WRIST-TERMINAL-S501-4000-RC-1000-WRIST-TERMINAL-WATCH-RC-1000-/281972618730 I'd been trying to figure out where I misplaced the 5.25" floppy with the software, until this last weekend, I found it in a stack of old Infocom game floppies. Unfortunately, when I stick it in my one remaining working 5.25" floppy drive, it made a little noise and decided it couldn't detect formatting. Looking at the diskette, there seems to be some marks on the oxide. Possibly a head load problem. It's also possible that it's just an old format this system doesn't recognize. Anyone in the area (north of Boston) have a working old PC? This is labeled as an IBM/MS-DOS version. I used it once many years ago. Does anyone have this software archived or available? SEIKO PCDatagraph Data Manager circa 1984 Dave. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From healyzh at aracnet.com Tue Mar 29 16:18:52 2016 From: healyzh at aracnet.com (Zane Healy) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 14:18:52 -0700 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> References: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: It reminded me of getting a PDP-11/44 & drives in a couple racks, from Paxton in the late 90?s when he still had the Warehouse in Portland, with the help of my Dad, and then installing it in my folks garage. My Mom was quite happy when my wife and I bought a house, and could move it into our own garage. Zane > On Mar 29, 2016, at 1:37 PM, Pontus Pihlgren wrote: > > I watched it earlier today and it reminded me a bit about myself. At least that > one time I, with help of friends, rescued a PDP-11/34, eclipse in two racks and > VAX-11/750 with peripherals from a house with a collapsed floor. > > /P > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:34:09PM -0700, geneb wrote: >> >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk >> >> It's pretty entertaining. :) >> >> g. >> >> >> -- >> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 >> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. >> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. >> Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. >> >> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment >> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. >> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Tue Mar 29 17:31:49 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:31:49 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Sun, 27 Mar 2016 10:40:59 -0400" References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: <01PYEF27EAV800CQ04@beyondthepale.ie> > > One other thing to add, when I wrote down the info from the license > originally I made a little note on a scrap of paper, with the values I saw > at a point before I deleted the key originally > > MULTINET > TGV > 1 > A-10-098-116512 (authorization?) > G (?) > H (?) > AA-10098-116512 (product token?) > > I am not sure what the Hardware_ID is or if I need it, you're asked a bunch > of questions when you install the PAK. > There are a whole bunch of license parameters but a given license won't make use of them all. I have not seen Hardware_ID in use for Multinet licenses. If the license you have doesn't have a Hardware_ID, just press enter to select the default when you are asked for it. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From cctalk at snarc.net Tue Mar 29 17:42:06 2016 From: cctalk at snarc.net (Evan Koblentz) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:42:06 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk > > It's pretty entertaining. :) Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's been learning at an astonishingly quick rate! From mikew at thecomputervalet.com Tue Mar 29 17:47:47 2016 From: mikew at thecomputervalet.com (Mike Whalen) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:47:47 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> Message-ID: Wonderful video. On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 5:42 PM, Evan Koblentz wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk >> >> It's pretty entertaining. :) >> > > Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's been > learning at an astonishingly quick rate! > From billdegnan at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 17:54:31 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:54:31 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: <01PYEF27EAV800CQ04@beyondthepale.ie> References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> <01PYEF27EAV800CQ04@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: On Mar 29, 2016 6:37 PM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > > > > > One other thing to add, when I wrote down the info from the license > > originally I made a little note on a scrap of paper, with the values I saw > > at a point before I deleted the key originally > > > > MULTINET > > TGV > > 1 > > A-10-098-116512 (authorization?) > > G (?) > > H (?) > > AA-10098-116512 (product token?) > > > > I am not sure what the Hardware_ID is or if I need it, you're asked a bunch > > of questions when you install the PAK. > > > > There are a whole bunch of license parameters but a given license won't make > use of them all. I have not seen Hardware_ID in use for Multinet licenses. > If the license you have doesn't have a Hardware_ID, just press enter to select > the default when you are asked for it. > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan. > I will let you know how it goes. B From jwest at classiccmp.org Tue Mar 29 18:28:15 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 18:28:15 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> Message-ID: <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> Evan wrote... > Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's > been learning at an astonishingly quick rate! > He's been a member on this list for quite some time, and is a regular on the evening crew of the #classiccmp irc channel as well. He was working on a DG Nova 3 before the Z machine arrived, hope he gets back to it as well :) J From jan at janadelsbach.com Tue Mar 29 19:03:56 2016 From: jan at janadelsbach.com (Jan Adelsbach) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:03:56 +0200 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20160330020356.23bed561@linux.fritz.box> I got my two (Full-Rack) SGI Origin 2000's when I was around 16-17 years old. By comparison it wasn't much of an adventure, it was quite boring actually. Jan On 03/29/2016 09:34 PM, geneb wrote: > > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk > > It's pretty entertaining. :) > > g. > > From mspproductions at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 19:09:30 2016 From: mspproductions at gmail.com (Matt Patoray) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:09:30 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 29, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Jay West wrote: > > Evan wrote... >> Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's >> been learning at an astonishingly quick rate! > > He's been a member on this list for quite some time, and is a regular on the evening crew of the #classiccmp irc channel as well. > > He was working on a DG Nova 3 before the Z machine arrived, hope he gets back to it as well :) > > J I got to see that DG just after he picked it up in Akron. He stopped by the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington PA and we gave it a look over and also discussed the docs he got with it and what to tackle first. Now if only it had come with some of those cool blue/green DG terminals :) I still remover the day he sat down in front of the HP 2116B, he had never touched a blinking light front panel, he asked if Dave or I minded if he erased the program in memory, we said no, he powered it on and 2 min later was reading the programming docs for it and wrote a quick blinking lights program in like 15 min. Connor is a good guy! From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 29 19:18:14 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:18:14 -0700 Subject: MEM11A update Message-ID: I just finished laying out the board for the MEM11A. The last roadblock was figuring out where the last 3 unrouted wires were. EagleCAD didn?t make it easy to find them and I haven?t quite figured out how to use the autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I did this all by ?hand? (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). I haven?t re-set the grid from all of the other boards (all thru hole parts) that I?ve done, so this board is probably not optimal (plus I was getting the hang of doing a 4 layer board). I ran into a lot of wiring congestion that caused me to reroute the entire board as I moved parts around. Even with a finer grid pitch it?s unlikely that the UMF11 will fit on a single SPC board. I?m going to check the board over for the next week or so before I send it out and about 4 weeks after that I?ll have the first boards that I can populate and try out! TTFN - Guy From paulkoning at comcast.net Tue Mar 29 19:25:48 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:25:48 -0400 Subject: MEM11A update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > I just finished laying out the board for the MEM11A. The last roadblock was figuring out > where the last 3 unrouted wires were. EagleCAD didn?t make it easy to find them and I > haven?t quite figured out how to use the autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I did this all by ?hand? > (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). I can imagine. Hand-routing tends to produce much better results; the autorouter in EagleCAD isn't all that good. A simple way to find the not yet routed wires is to turn off the metal layers but leave the "ratsnest" layer visible. paul From ethan.dicks at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 19:50:43 2016 From: ethan.dicks at gmail.com (Ethan Dicks) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:50:43 -0400 Subject: MEM11A update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >> ...autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I did this all by ?hand? >> (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). > > I can imagine. Hand-routing tends to produce much better results; Yep. > the autorouter in EagleCAD isn't all that good. Yep. > A simple way to find the not yet routed wires is to turn off the metal layers but leave the "ratsnest" layer visible. I can suggest triple-checking for unrouted wires. I have a small PCB design I sent out that had *1* unrouted wire segment, between the crystal and the pad at the MCU, so short, I couldn't easily spot it even after several sessions of looking at it and running ERC. Fortunately, there's a handy via _right there_, but each board from that run needs a hand-added ECO wire (something I used to do for a living 30+ years ago). v2 is 100% correct! Lesson learned. -ethan From COURYHOUSE at aol.com Tue Mar 29 20:30:57 2016 From: COURYHOUSE at aol.com (COURYHOUSE at aol.com) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:30:57 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... Message-ID: <33a9da.5553c25d.442c8651@aol.com> reminds me of myself dragging him big racks of military comm surplus gear when I was in HD Keep it up Connor! we are proud of ya! Ed Sharpe archivist for SMECC _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) In a message dated 3/29/2016 4:28:17 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time, jwest at classiccmp.org writes: Evan wrote... > Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's > been learning at an astonishingly quick rate! > He's been a member on this list for quite some time, and is a regular on the evening crew of the #classiccmp irc channel as well. He was working on a DG Nova 3 before the Z machine arrived, hope he gets back to it as well :) J From brian at marstella.net Tue Mar 29 21:07:37 2016 From: brian at marstella.net (Brian Marstella) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:07:37 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: I'm still kicking myself for passing up an IBM mainframe and a Sun 2000 that my previous employer no longer needed. I reasoned that I didn't have space or power for them; never let logic and good sense dictate your actions :) Connor picked a great learning experience... EE, CS, and other disciplines such as civil engineering, all rolled into one experience. On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:09 PM, Matt Patoray wrote: > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Mar 29, 2016, at 7:28 PM, Jay West wrote: > > > > Evan wrote... > >> Connor is a member of our user group here in the Mid-Atlantic. He's > >> been learning at an astonishingly quick rate! > > > > He's been a member on this list for quite some time, and is a regular on > the evening crew of the #classiccmp irc channel as well. > > > > He was working on a DG Nova 3 before the Z machine arrived, hope he gets > back to it as well :) > > > > J > > I got to see that DG just after he picked it up in Akron. He stopped by > the Large Scale Systems Museum in New Kensington PA and we gave it a look > over and also discussed the docs he got with it and what to tackle first. > > Now if only it had come with some of those cool blue/green DG terminals :) > > I still remover the day he sat down in front of the HP 2116B, he had never > touched a blinking light front panel, he asked if Dave or I minded if he > erased the program in memory, we said no, he powered it on and 2 min later > was reading the programming docs for it and wrote a quick blinking lights > program in like 15 min. > > Connor is a good guy! From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 29 21:52:04 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 21:52:04 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> OK, I have to admit, that video is impressive, he held the audience attention better than people twice his age, and the sheer audacity has to be commended. Sadly, my zOS days are long over, I don't even remember how to configure LU2 or LU6.2 anymore, and I got paid to do that. That said, I do not regret getting into "home" computers :-) Man, those machines are heavy and bulky. Anyone have the zOS machine that was in a PC case (or is my memory off on that)? Jim From tmfdmike at gmail.com Tue Mar 29 21:54:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 15:54:40 +1300 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 3:52 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > OK, I have to admit, that video is impressive, he held the audience > attention better than people twice his age, and the sheer audacity has to be > commended. > > Sadly, my zOS days are long over, I don't even remember how to configure LU2 > or LU6.2 anymore, and I got paid to do that. > > That said, I do not regret getting into "home" computers :-) Man, those > machines are heavy and bulky. > > Anyone have the zOS machine that was in a PC case (or is my memory off on > that)? Jim you mean the P/390? I have a couple of those yes. First ones were Microchannel; later ones were PCI. S/390 CPU & memory on a card; all other devices emulated under OS/2 or AIX. Could only run the earlier versions of z/OS; they were strictly 31-bit only. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From brain at jbrain.com Tue Mar 29 22:01:21 2016 From: brain at jbrain.com (Jim Brain) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:01:21 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> On 3/29/2016 9:54 PM, Mike Ross wrote: > > Jim you mean the P/390? I have a couple of those yes. First ones were > Microchannel; later ones were PCI. S/390 CPU & memory on a card; all > other devices emulated under OS/2 or AIX. Could only run the earlier > versions of z/OS; they were strictly 31-bit only. I think that was it. I heard about it when I worked at Compuware in the early 90's. The presentation took me back to those days, not so long ago, when it was expensive to put TCP/IP on OS/390, so much so that Compuware developed "HCI", which was a TCP/IP stack for the platform (not sure if they sold it, bundled it with apps, or it was just Andy Falvey's pet project. I remember he borrowed my Comer books so he could implement TCP/IP... Jim From ggs at shiresoft.com Tue Mar 29 22:27:01 2016 From: ggs at shiresoft.com (Guy Sotomayor) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 20:27:01 -0700 Subject: MEM11A update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > On Mar 29, 2016, at 5:50 PM, Ethan Dicks wrote: > > On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 8:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >>> On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: >>> ...autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I did this all by ?hand? >>> (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). >> >> I can imagine. Hand-routing tends to produce much better results; > > Yep. > >> the autorouter in EagleCAD isn't all that good. > > Yep. I had reasonable luck with it previously but I would route critical signals by hand and let the autorouter finish everything else. > >> A simple way to find the not yet routed wires is to turn off the metal layers but leave the "ratsnest" layer visible. > > I can suggest triple-checking for unrouted wires. I have a small PCB > design I sent out that had *1* unrouted wire segment, between the > crystal and the pad at the MCU, so short, I couldn't easily spot it > even after several sessions of looking at it and running ERC. > Fortunately, there's a handy via _right there_, but each board from > that run needs a hand-added ECO wire (something I used to do for a > living 30+ years ago). v2 is 100% correct! Lesson learned. > These 3 wires were *really* short. Nothing I did found them until I came across a ?trick? which is to zoom out so the board is tiny and then with the route tool active, just ?click? on spot on the board. In short order I found all 3 remaining wires. Using that technique, I found the 3 remaining wires in less than 5 minutes (vs the over an hour looking for them last night). Eagle is at least reasonable in that it tells me there are unrouted wires. Now I have to go through the DRC/ERC and make sure nothing they complain about is a real problem. TTFN - Guy From seth at loomcom.com Tue Mar 29 16:26:48 2016 From: seth at loomcom.com (Seth Morabito) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 16:26:48 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <878u113rhj.fsf@loomcom.com> Zane Healy writes: > It reminded me of getting a PDP-11/44 & drives in a couple racks, from > Paxton in the late 90?s when he still had the Warehouse in Portland, > with the help of my Dad, and then installing it in my folks garage. My > Mom was quite happy when my wife and I bought a house, and could move > it into our own garage. > > Zane I started getting serious about collecting vintage computers when I was about 20, so not much older. That was in 1993, and I was scrounging PDP-11/23s and VT100s and VT220s, so most of what I was finding was 10-15 years old at that point. The more things change, the more they stay the same! -Seth From turing at shaw.ca Tue Mar 29 16:59:30 2016 From: turing at shaw.ca (Norman Jaffe) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 15:59:30 -0600 (MDT) Subject: Old PC Boards and some Books to go In-Reply-To: <20160329204010.GB24938@Update.UU.SE> Message-ID: <520362542.12263053.1459288770576.JavaMail.root@shaw.ca> Hi: I'm interested in the Intel 3000 and bit-slice books - would you be able to / willing to ship to Canada? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pontus Pihlgren" To: "General Discussion: On-Topic Posts" Sent: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 1:40:11 PM Subject: Re: Old PC Boards and some Books to go Hi Some gems in there. Will you ship? How much do you want for the DECsystem-10 books? /P On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 12:08:28PM -0400, Dave Mitton wrote: > Guys, > still trying to clean out my basement... recently I've gathered a bunch > of PC cards from over the years. > and some of my old text and data books. Still working on listing some more > and some various kits of PC software. > I'm not assuming this is worth much, just rather pass it on, than dispose. > > I've put a list (so far) of the stuff on this web page. I have photos of > the PC cards if interested. > http://dave.mitton.com/computer_clearance.html > > Dave Mitton, > North Andover, MA > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus > From pete at petelancashire.com Tue Mar 29 19:51:17 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 17:51:17 -0700 Subject: MEM11A update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I've never used EagleCAD but some CAD packages let you turn off all routed lines On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 5:25 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > On Mar 29, 2016, at 8:18 PM, Guy Sotomayor wrote: > > > > I just finished laying out the board for the MEM11A. The last roadblock > was figuring out > > where the last 3 unrouted wires were. EagleCAD didn?t make it easy to > find them and I > > haven?t quite figured out how to use the autorouter on Eagle 7.5, so I > did this all by ?hand? > > (at just under 2000 wires it took a while). > > I can imagine. Hand-routing tends to produce much better results; the > autorouter in EagleCAD isn't all that good. A simple way to find the not > yet routed wires is to turn off the metal layers but leave the "ratsnest" > layer visible. > > paul > > > > From v.slyngstad at frontier.com Wed Mar 30 01:10:59 2016 From: v.slyngstad at frontier.com (Vincent Slyngstad) Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 23:10:59 -0700 Subject: MEM11A update In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <0A73203631104359AE24FF56CF8897F2@Vincew7> From: Guy Sotomayor: Tuesday, March 29, 2016 8:27 PM > These 3 wires were *really* short. Nothing I did found them until I came > across a ?trick? which is to zoom out so the board is tiny and then with > the route tool active, just ?click? on spot on the board. In short order I > found all 3 remaining wires. Using that technique, I found the 3 remaining > wires in less than 5 minutes (vs the over an hour looking for them last > night). Cool tip! Have you tried the "zoom-unrouted" ULP? That should center the display on one of the unrouted traces. From there you can turn off the routed layers, pads, etc and zoom in more until you find it. Repeat as needed for additional unrouted wires. A good choice of placement and routing grids should minimize these problems, but of course picking a proper routing grid is non-trivial when a variety of odd (metric and imperial mixed?) spacing is involved. Vince From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Mar 30 02:26:06 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:26:06 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > they were strictly 31-bit only. Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. mcl From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Mar 30 02:26:06 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 02:26:06 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > they were strictly 31-bit only. Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. mcl From holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de Wed Mar 30 02:12:59 2016 From: holger.veit at iais.fraunhofer.de (Veit, Holger) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:12:59 +0200 Subject: RSX-11 trouble In-Reply-To: <1459272630.2911.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> References: <1459272630.2911.0.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Message-ID: <56FB7C7B.3000906@iais.fraunhofer.de> Does REM ...AT. INS $BIGIND/PRI=10. work? The first cmd may cause an error, if there is no AT loaded at all. The second will install larger the 12K version of IND if present, a prerequisite for a sysgen that may be also used in normal operation. It is IIRC rather uncommon to discard IND for space issues; there are other less frequently used tasks to be removed for a turnkey system. Is the disk rather full anyway? Holger Am 29.03.2016 um 19:30 schrieb supervinx: > Il giorno sab, 26/03/2016 alle 11.54 +0000, Veit, Holger ha scritto: >> Looks as if the @ task, the indirect command processor, is either defective, or was not linked correctly for this system. Check the system generation manual; there are hints on how to replace it. This is for instance necessary for a sysgen (INS a /BIG version of it). If this fails, the TSK is broken. The sysgen rebuilds IND from an OLB regularly; there is a BLD file for this. You don't need to run a full sysgen for it (infact, with a broken @ processor, you can't). >> Regards Holger >> >> Mit TouchDown von meinem Android-Telefon gesendet (www.nitrodesk.com) >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: supervinx [supervinx at libero.it] >> Received: Donnerstag, 24 M?rz 2016, 23:30 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] >> Subject: RSX-11 trouble >> >> Hi! >> Got a MicroPDP 11 plus. >> It seems to be misconfigured. >> It can't execute .CMD files, reporting >> Task "...AT." terminated >> Load failure. Read error >> >> No disk errors are reported with ELI DU0:/SH >> >> Disk seems to work: I can run .TSK files. >> The file STARTUP.CMD isn't read at all. >> >> Any hints? Which file is executed right before STARTUP.CMD? >> I see two RED commands and a MOU before it tries to read [1,2]STARTUP.CMD and reports the aforementioned error. >> >> Thanks >> > Well... no IND.TSK is present :( > May be they had space issues? > > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 02:34:00 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:34:00 +1300 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: >> they were strictly 31-bit only. > > Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. > > mcl Not in the least; when they were designed and built Z-Architecture wasn't even a twinkle in a hardware engineers eye. Nothing hobbled about them. And by the time Z-Architecture did come alone it was no longer necessary to use custom hardware to implement a usable mainframe CPU; it could be emulated entirely in software - Hercules; Flex/ES; z/PDT etc. - hence no 64-bit *hardware* successor to the P/390 was ever built or seriously contemplated. Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From linimon at lonesome.com Wed Mar 30 03:48:51 2016 From: linimon at lonesome.com (Mark Linimon) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 03:48:51 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> Message-ID: <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 08:34:00PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Linimon wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > >> they were strictly 31-bit only. > > > > Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. I guess I didn't highlight the joke. Thirty-*one* bits? mcl From rwiker at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 05:48:35 2016 From: rwiker at gmail.com (Raymond Wiker) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:48:35 +0200 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Mark Linimon wrote: > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 08:34:00PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Linimon > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > >> they were strictly 31-bit only. > > > > > > Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. > > I guess I didn't highlight the joke. Thirty-*one* bits? > Yeah, well... maybe not entirely impossible; see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ND-500#ND-505 From alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 05:59:37 2016 From: alexandre.tabajara at gmail.com (Alexandre Souza) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 07:59:37 -0300 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Long time I don't laugh so hard! :D 2016-03-30 7:48 GMT-03:00 Raymond Wiker : > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:48 AM, Mark Linimon > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 08:34:00PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Linimon > > wrote: > > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > > >> they were strictly 31-bit only. > > > > > > > > Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. > > > > I guess I didn't highlight the joke. Thirty-*one* bits? > > > > > Yeah, well... maybe not entirely impossible; see > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ND-500#ND-505 > From iamcamiel at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 06:12:35 2016 From: iamcamiel at gmail.com (Camiel Vanderhoeven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:12:35 +0200 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <20160330072605.GB13405@lonesome.com> <20160330084851.GA13588@lonesome.com> Message-ID: Yes, we're talking address space here. The 390 had 31-bit addresses. Op 30 mrt. 2016 10:49 a.m. schreef "Mark Linimon" : > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 08:34:00PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:26 PM, Mark Linimon > wrote: > > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 03:54:40PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote: > > >> they were strictly 31-bit only. > > > > > > Dang, I suspected they were hobbled, but that's painful. > > I guess I didn't highlight the joke. Thirty-*one* bits? > > mcl > From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 30 07:24:20 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:24:20 -0400 (EDT) Subject: PDP-11 M873 ROM card info? Message-ID: <20160330122420.B842A18C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > Does anyone have a -YB we can dump? Can I repeat my plea for this? (And also a -YC?) > I have a -YA, and will dump that in a few moments OK, I'm mostly done with the disassembly; available here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/M873-YA.mac I haven't fully understood the TA11 code (and don't plan to), nor the DECtape/magtape code (might get to that some day), but the disk and paper tape code is completely done. (I'm currently loading over serial lines, for getting the machines running, etc.) The paper tape code is 'interesting'; it took me a while to figure out _exactly_ how it worked. It appears (to me, at least) that that code will not function correctly unless the abs-loader has at least one byte of '0' pad on the end of it, for two reasons. (See the comments on the listing.) Luckily, my copy of the abs loader binary has such; although real .LDA tapes have blank leader, of course, the .LDA files I'm generating don't. The serial line code in the M9301 (-YA at least, and probably the others too) uses the identical code, so it has the identical issue. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 30 07:43:26 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 08:43:26 -0400 (EDT) Subject: OT: was: Re: AT&T Uverse IPv6 vs. Mac OS X 10.(old) Message-ID: <20160330124326.CE14918C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Apologies all for the OT; just a few _brief_ replies. If anyone wants a serious discussion about this, the internet-history list would be the place to start it. > From: Charles Anthony > What they did was 'NAT plus IPV6 will solve everything.' Yes, but not explicitly; the 'official' IETF position was 'IPv6 will replace IPv4', and they pretty consistently refused to acknowledge that NAT would likely play a major role. I 'sort of' understand the second part - NAT is, architecturaly, very grubby (for a long list of reasons this is not the place to go into) - but it soon got the point of ostrich-like refusal to recognize reality - which meant that instead of an _architected_ approac to using NAT, it mostly got an utterly 'ad hoc' adoption. > From: Robert Johnson > So, I'm curious what your objections to v6 are It's different from IPv4 (i.e. old code can't understand it), but not different enough (i.e. it doesn't have enough new capabilities to make it worth switching to - IPv4 has many architectural issues, but that topic is too complex to go into here). > how would you solve the shortage of IP addresses? You have to start by realizing that IPv4 addresses serve at least three functions: i) identify the communicating device (in the sense that 'Noel Chiappa' identifies me), ii) says _where_ the thing is in the Internet (like a street address does IRL), and iii) is used by intermediate switching nodes to forward traffic. So the first step is to pull out ii) and iii), which can be done without modifying the hosts, and there are many designs that did so. Alas, a fuller discussion of this complex topic is not really appropriate here... Ask on internet-history, if you want to know more. Noel From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 30 08:07:08 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:07:08 -0400 (EDT) Subject: 11/23+ going cheap on eBay Message-ID: <20160330130708.19DA818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> So here's an 11/23+ in a nice BA11 box: http://www.ebay.com/itm/322046582015 If I wasn't _already_ knee deep in the blasted things, I'd buy it myself! ;-) The other cards aren't too interesting - an MXV11-A, MRV11-C (I think), a 64KB memory card, and what looks like an off-brand DLV11-J; and some sort of disk. Still, not a bad price (so far) for the CPU, box, and a handfull of boards. Noel From chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 08:50:19 2016 From: chocolatejollis38 at gmail.com (John Willis) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 07:50:19 -0600 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: > > > He's been a member on this list for quite some time, and is a regular on > the evening crew of the #classiccmp irc channel as well. > There's an IRC channel? What IRC network is it on? From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 09:28:35 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 16:28:35 +0200 Subject: WinWorld Message-ID: Quote: ? WinWorld from the past, to the present, for the future WinWorld is an online museum dedicated to the preservation and sharing of abandonware and pre-release software, as well as any and all knowledge associated with such works. We offer information, media and downloads for a wide variety of computers and operating systems. Our collection includes abandonware operating systems (like Windows 3.1 or 95), beta operating systems (like Chicago, Whistler, and Longhorn), abandonware applications (like AfterDark, the epic screensaver software we all grew up with) and more. We offer all of our content free of charge to any interested party. Whether you're doing looking to go down memory lane and re-visit Windows 3.1, do some research on computing history, or repurpose an old system that can't run the latest and greatest, WinWorld is here to help by providing unrestricted access to our entire library at no charge. We do not accept donations, just download and enjoy. WinWorld provides you with large amounts of downloads and high quality information that BetaArchive FTP and Vetusware can't compare with! Get Windows Abandonware, Games, Macintosh old software and more from our software library right here at WinWorld! For news, support and discussion visit WinBoards. No registration is required to post, so why not drop in and say hi? ? Impressive assortment of OSes and apps for older PCs, Macs and broadly related systems -- CP/M etc. https://winworldpc.com/ -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From jwest at classiccmp.org Wed Mar 30 09:44:22 2016 From: jwest at classiccmp.org (Jay West) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:44:22 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> Message-ID: <001a01d18a92$a5d8c440$f18a4cc0$@classiccmp.org> John wrote.... --------- There's an IRC channel? What IRC network is it on? --------- Freenode, #classiccmp It tends to be more of a hangout "water cooler talk" for us than a technical forum, but I'm there most every evening from 8pmCST onward. J From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 09:49:19 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:49:19 -0400 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2016, at 10:28 AM, Liam Proven wrote: > > Quote: > > ? > WinWorld from the past, to the present, for the future > > WinWorld is an online museum dedicated to the preservation and sharing > of abandonware ... Sigh. It's unfortunate to see people pushing the nonexistent and legally farcical notion of "abandonware". The "definition" given on the site creates the pretense that the term is actually meaningful, but this is flat out wrong and misleading. paul From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 30 10:11:41 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:11:41 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <201603301511.LAA16018@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> >> WinWorld is an online museum dedicated to the preservation and >> sharing of abandonware ... > Sigh. It's unfortunate to see people pushing the nonexistent and legally fa$ Well, it _is_ a meaningful term (albeit with a fuzzier than usual meaning); if people write of "abandonware" most readers will have at least a general idea of what is being referred to. It's true that (at least in most jursidictions) it does not have the legal status that people seem to act as though they thought it did, but, heck, that's true of a whole lot of terms in wide use, some of which even _do_ have relatively precise legal meanings - my own favourite of these is "public domain". And, unlike misused technical terms like "public domain", "abandonware" fills a gap in the language; there is - as far as I know - no other term nearly as good for its referent. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 30 10:12:18 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:12:18 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> Message-ID: > Sigh. It's unfortunate to see people pushing the nonexistent and legally farcical notion of "abandonware". The "definition" given on the site creates the pretense that the term is actually meaningful, but this is flat out wrong and misleading. > paul Situation A: Lost forever Situation B: "Pirated" Take your pick. From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 30 10:16:00 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:16:00 -0400 (EDT) Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <878u113rhj.fsf@loomcom.com> References: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> <878u113rhj.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: > I started getting serious about collecting vintage computers when I was > about 20, so not much older. That was in 1993, and I was scrounging > PDP-11/23s and VT100s and VT220s, so most of what I was finding was > 10-15 years old at that point. The more things change, the more they > stay the same! > -Seth IIRC My first large home computer (220v) was a SGI 4d/480VGX. It had the LED CPU usage meters on the front. Eventually I ended up with two Challenge XLs and four L's to replace it, and two Onyx's and a Origin 2000 full rack. SGI hardware was so cool. -- Ethan O'Toole From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 30 10:40:29 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:40:29 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> Message-ID: <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> On 03/29/2016 10:01 PM, Jim Brain wrote: Somebody mentioned a house with a collapsed floor. A friend of mine bought two 770/145s and a GE/Intersil memory box. (I bought the other memory box, in 1979 or so, a **MEG** of memory was a big deal!) I am amazed we did not collapse the floor in his house! There used to be a picture online, but his page seems to have gone away. Jon From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 10:50:24 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:50:24 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <4AE20ADC-C1DC-4D02-9CCD-49B736D3D2A2@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2016, at 11:40 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > > On 03/29/2016 10:01 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Somebody mentioned a house with a collapsed floor. A friend of mine bought two 770/145s and a GE/Intersil memory box. (I bought the other memory box, in 1979 or so, a **MEG** of memory was a big deal!) > > I am amazed we did not collapse the floor in his house! Compared to waterbeds or pianos, computers aren't all that heavy. Not even mainframes. DEC's old headquarters (the "Mill" in Maynard) had prominent signs everywhere saying the floor load limit was 100 pounds per square foot, or something like that (perhaps less). But they just planted their computers all over anyway, and I don't remember ever seeing floor reinforcements for that. The stated limit was probably quite conservative. After all, that building used to contain spinning and weaving machinery -- big hunks of cast iron. paul From wdonzelli at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 10:51:19 2016 From: wdonzelli at gmail.com (William Donzelli) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:51:19 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: > Somebody mentioned a house with a collapsed floor. A friend of mine bought > two 770/145s and a GE/Intersil memory box. (I bought the other memory box, > in 1979 or so, a **MEG** of memory was a big deal!) I assume you mean 370/145s/ Whatever happened to them? In 1979, they would have been still usable machines. While Connor's mainframe move is very impressive -try removing something from a derelict ship. There is a certain beauty seeing an 800 pound box doing a slow ballet in three dimension using chain hoists. Did anyone here watch the original livestream, anyway? The idea was to try install Minecraft on the thing. Not enough horsepower! That, or shitty Mojang code. -- Will From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 11:18:39 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:18:39 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro Message-ID: http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96 I recently picked up one of these devices. I'll apologize in advance if you folks have already had a discussion about the MiST. Basically, it's an FPGA that's capable of emulation (for lack of a better term) of many platforms on a hardware level. I only got mine about two weeks ago, and I'm still sifting through a ton of material and focused mainly on the Amiga and ST platforms (stuff I played with as a pre-teen and teen). I have to say, so far it's pretty awesome. The coolest feature in my opinion is the standard joystick ports on the side that "just work" with all the emulation targets. I always favored using Sega Genesis controllers in those (rather than the rinky-dink little "red joystick" of the time). They work oh-so-great with this rig. The only issue is finding a monitor that doesn't have a fit over 15Khz refresh rates. I use an NEC MultiSync with sync-on-green and all that fun stuff. I'm still busy getting AROS running on "my Amiga" (which is represented by an SD card with my ROM image from my A3000 and a metric crapton of floppy images). You basically hit a keystroke or joystick combo and you can swap floppies, reboot, etc.. If you are into any of these, I can recommend the MiST: * ST/STE (also on SCART 15KHz) * Amiga 500/600/1200 ( AGA CORE BETA core) * C64 (partially - still developed) * Atari 8bit ( 96%) * Collecovision * ZX81 * Atari 2600 * ZX Spectrum with AY, aslo with DIVMMC and ESXDOS * SEGA GENESIS * Apple II(x) * MSX * AMSTRAD CPC (BETA) * A few others, you'll want to check. BTW, I'm new to the list (1st post). So, I'll introduce myself. I'm just another IT worker with a background in Unix systems. I'm 41 and I started with HP-UX 10.x (high school) and branched out to every kind of Unix box I could get my hands on (Yes. I'm one of those Unix zealots, but that might be too gentle a description). I spent the 90's with SGIs (which I still collect, I have an O2+, two Indys, and a bruzin' Tezro fully built out). I spent the early 2k's coding for supper as a "security engineer" (read: writing exploits which I don't much care for now) and some stints as a Tru64 admin. On the in between gigs and contracts I've touched just about everything (and in the last 10 years a lot of new Unix hardware). I've professionally admin'd or coded for IRIX, Solaris, Linux, Tru64 (OSF/1 or Digital Unix for some), FreeBSD, HP-UX, UNICOS, and AIX. As a hobbyist, I've also tinkered greatly with NetBSD (maybe my favorite), OpenBSD, and Minix. Then of course there is the spacey or rare stuff I've put hands on. I'm talking about things like UnixWare, Xenix, SCO, SunOS, BSDi, DG/UX, NeXTStep/OpenStep, A/UX, and even non-Unix stuff like Sprite, L4, QNX, HURD, BeOS, Haiku, AROS, Genode, and others. I code fairly well in C, shell script, and TCL. I code not-as-well in AREXX, Python, Ruby, PHP, Lua, and a few other scripting languages. I'm pleased to be on this list, and to make your myriad acquaintances. -Swift PS: My spell checker needs and ex-lax after going insane over this email full of Unix variants and ancient platforms. From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 30 11:25:00 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:25:00 -0600 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/30/2016 9:12 AM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> Sigh. It's unfortunate to see people pushing the nonexistent and >> legally farcical notion of "abandonware". The "definition" given on >> the site creates the pretense that the term is actually meaningful, >> but this is flat out wrong and misleading. >> paul > > Situation A: Lost forever > > Situation B: "Pirated" > > Take your pick. > C: online but MIRRORED From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 11:37:46 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:37:46 +0200 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On 29 March 2016 at 21:34, geneb wrote: > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=45X4VP8CGtk > > It's pretty entertaining. :) I just Tweeted this. Great story, and a great presentation. This is the link to the Share Songbook, BTW: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ot79z78u3zd6vxs/SHARE%20Songbook.pdf?dl=0 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 11:47:27 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:47:27 +0200 Subject: RC2014 homebrew computer Message-ID: I confess it is in no way a classic machine, but I thought that this might be of interest to some people here. I had not heard of it before until a chance retweet from a ZX Spectrum-related account today: http://rc2014.co.uk/ ? RC2014 is a simple 8 bit Z80 based modular computer. It is inspired by the home built computers of the late 70s and computer revolution of the early 80s. It is not a clone of anything specific, but there are ideas of the ZX81, UK101, S100 and Apple I in here. Built mainly with parts donated to Nottingham Hackspace and components salvaged from random bits of equipment, it uses modern PCBs. It runs on a backplane that hosts the individual modules. This has standard 0.1? header sockets meaning new modules are simple and cheap to design and can use Veroboard or even jumper wires to breadboard. For resilience, most of the modules have been designed on to dedicated PCBs. In it?s typical basic form it has; 32k RAM, 8k ROM (running Microsoft BASIC), 3.7628Mhz Z80 processor serial communication at 115200 baud. Other modules include 8k x 8 bank switchable EPROM, SD card bootloader, ZX Printer interface, Blinkenlights, LED dot matrix display driver, LCD display driver ? (Errors in the source material.) More info and purchasing sources: https://www.tindie.com/products/Semachthemonkey/rc2014-homebrew-z80-computer/ And a (for my money, insane, but) interesting peripheral: https://hackaday.io/project/9567-5-graphics-card-for-homebrew-z80 -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 30 11:51:44 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:51:44 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56FC0420.8090809@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2016 10:40 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > On 03/29/2016 10:01 PM, Jim Brain wrote: > Somebody mentioned a house with a collapsed floor. A > friend of mine bought two 770/145s Ugh, 370/145 Jon From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 30 11:58:54 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:58:54 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: They define "abandonware" as: "In order for a piece of software to be abandonware, it must, as a general guideline: Be over 7 years old. Be out of support by the manufacturer. Be mostly out of use by the general populace (abandoned)" So, if you are a software author, if you won't SUPPORT stuff that you did over 7 years ago, they believe that they have a right to distribute it? Copyright law does NOT take ownership away from you, and permit others ot distribute it without compensation, based on refusal to continue to market or support your previous versions and products. All this time, I thought that you had to be DEAD before they could take your work. Q: To what extent are they making a "good faith" effort to contact the "prior" (actually current) owners of the intellectual property rights? From supervinx at libero.it Wed Mar 30 12:01:17 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:01:17 +0200 Subject: R: Re: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: Well... REM ...AT. worked since an AT entry was present in the TAL output INS $BIGIND not INS -- File not found Disk (RD51) has 850 blocks free after some cleaning up. It had 738 before. From pete at petelancashire.com Wed Mar 30 11:36:15 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 09:36:15 -0700 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <20160329203713.GA24938@Update.UU.SE> <878u113rhj.fsf@loomcom.com> Message-ID: First access was when I was 16 and used the remains of 3 Teletype 33's to make one working unit, the same neighbor who got me the machines help get and fix a modem, I had access to the the HP 2000C at the local college from home. (guess the year). First oldie computer was a then not oldie Burroughs B720, I worked at the plant where they were made and got one that was freight damaged. About 1,000 14+16 pin DIP 7400 TTL packages and ran at 2 Mhz. Next was a Data General Nova (no suffix the original) with a Teletype 33 ASR, And a high speed tape reader. Still wish I had it now. Love being able to turn it off and back one without loosing data other then what was in the registers. One day I got a call, "do you want some minicomputers ?". Stupid question. "Come down to Veterans Stadium (Philly) with a truck", the caller was a friend who was an electrician. The company that won the bid to replace the game board at the stadium had the remains of the old setup piled up ready to go out for scrap. I filled the truck with General Automation SPC-16's and I/O boards, cables, etc. enough to control over 100 individual 120V lights. The big regret .. 1975, get a call "do you want an IBM mainframe" .. but was moving 3,000 west thee weeks after the call. Was a whole computer room 360/45, disks, tapes, etc. everything except the 1403 Model 5, but the Model 2 was in the offer. If I had not accepted the job and was not moving I actually had free use of a warehouse. After moving, 1981 I paid $100 for a 4 Racks of DEC, Rack 1 PDP 11/45, Rack 2, RP03 controller, Rack 3 4 x RK05s, Rack 4 a TU?? two RP03's, VT100's, etc, etc. Filled 1/2 of the basement. I ran RSX11M on it. The last big box at home was a SUN M5000, but its now gone to a good home. The last offers I've turned down are a Sun/Fujitsu M9000 and a V890, My employer would not let me or anyone have the IBM Z/?? and it went out as E-scrap a couple months ago. In storage there are twp DEC Alpha DS20E's and a older DS20 that I'll do something with or find a home for. On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 8:16 AM, wrote: > I started getting serious about collecting vintage computers when I was >> about 20, so not much older. That was in 1993, and I was scrounging >> PDP-11/23s and VT100s and VT220s, so most of what I was finding was >> 10-15 years old at that point. The more things change, the more they >> stay the same! >> -Seth >> > > IIRC My first large home computer (220v) was a SGI 4d/480VGX. > > It had the LED CPU usage meters on the front. > > Eventually I ended up with two Challenge XLs and four L's to replace it, > and two Onyx's and a Origin 2000 full rack. SGI hardware was so cool. > > > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > > From glen.slick at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 12:09:52 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:09:52 -0700 Subject: 11/23+ going cheap on eBay In-Reply-To: <20160330130708.19DA818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> References: <20160330130708.19DA818C09D@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:07 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote: > So here's an 11/23+ in a nice BA11 box: > > http://www.ebay.com/itm/322046582015 > > If I wasn't _already_ knee deep in the blasted things, I'd buy it myself! ;-) > > The other cards aren't too interesting - an MXV11-A, MRV11-C (I think), a 64KB > memory card, and what looks like an off-brand DLV11-J; and some sort of disk. > > Still, not a bad price (so far) for the CPU, box, and a handfull of boards. Now up to $380. How high will it go? Are there docs and drivers available for the DTC-11-2? There is a manual for the DTC-11-1 here: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dtc/DTC11-1.pdf If the DTC-11-2 has the same programming interface the driver has to build SCSI CDBs which the controller sends to the device so it wouldn't be compatible with any standard DEC storage interfaces. If the SCSI drive included with this item listing isn't bootable into some OS and doesn't contain a driver for the DTC-11-2 the DTC-11-2 might not be of too much use for the average buyer. From elson at pico-systems.com Wed Mar 30 12:11:03 2016 From: elson at pico-systems.com (Jon Elson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 12:11:03 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: <56FB04BE.2030106@snarc.net> <000301d18a12$ab1e9e50$015bdaf0$@classiccmp.org> <9947F424-7D15-4D49-B303-B299567857E6@gmail.com> <56FB3F54.6000802@jbrain.com> <56FB4181.8080701@jbrain.com> <56FBF36D.9040306@pico-systems.com> Message-ID: <56FC08A7.4020805@pico-systems.com> On 03/30/2016 10:51 AM, William Donzelli wrote: >> Somebody mentioned a house with a collapsed floor. A friend of mine bought >> two 770/145s and a GE/Intersil memory box. (I bought the other memory box, >> in 1979 or so, a **MEG** of memory was a big deal!) > I assume you mean 370/145s/ Yes. > Whatever happened to them? In 1979, they > would have been still usable machines. > > Well, the problem with the 370's were peripherals and power. Although the lower level 370's had integrated channels, you still needed control units and drives. To do any real work, you'd need at least a DASD controller and drives and a com controller. Probably at least a tape controller and one drive to do backups and load software. That won't fit in the bedroom of a 2-bedroom house, which was where this thing was! Second was the 370s used a motor alternator set to convert 50/60 Hz power to 415 Hz power. To keep compatibility, they used the same size MG set for a range of machines. So, the 145 had a 17 KVA output alternator with a 20 Hp 208V 3-phase motor. We tried to build a phase converter to run the motor off the guy's 60 A 240 V service, but the reactive current was over 60 A and would blow the main breaker. The main logic supply for the /145 was 390 A at +1.3 and -3 V, so about 1.5 KW. We should have just got a bunch of big 5V switcher supplies and tuned them down to the appropriate voltage. But, that would have likely cost more than he paid for the machines, maybe even surplus. The 145 was not a real high performance machine. Although the memory was 64 bits+parity wide (for ECC) the main data path was only 16-bits wide, and the microcode word was rather vertical, so while 360/50 and 360/65 could execute simple instructions in about 4 microcode cycles, the /145 took something like 7+. A 32 bit add register to register was 1.4 us, add memory to register was 2.4 us. Floating point divide was 28 us (short) or 88 us (long). Jon From mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG Wed Mar 30 12:17:53 2016 From: mouse at Rodents-Montreal.ORG (Mouse) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:17:53 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> > They define "abandonware" as: > "In order for a piece of software to be abandonware, it must, as a > general guideline: > Be over 7 years old. > Be out of support by the manufacturer. > Be mostly out of use by the general populace (abandoned)" That's...yes, a peculiar definition, I would say. As I understand the term, the rights owner has to be nonexistent or to have proved unidentifiable or uncontactable (re which see below). The case where the owner clearly exists but demonstrably does not care about the software is, to my mind, a grey area. > Copyright law does NOT [...]. There is no single "copyright law". Not even the Berne convention is worldwide; practically everything about copyright is jurisdiction-specific, and I would be surprised if there weren't at least a few jurisdictions that did this (or didn't support copyright for software at all). That said, what you say is true in almost all jursidictions today. > Q: To what extent are they making a "good faith" effort to contact > the "prior" (actually current) owners of the intellectual property > rights? Yes. That. To my mind, this is the most critical missing piece of information. Since their definition does not mention it, I would be inclined to assume they haven't bothered; if so, I consider their abandonware definition to be sophistry, rigged in an attempt to make what they happen to feel like doing sound a bit less unjustified. Of course, what relation any of this bears to what _should_ be is a question for philosophy and much disagreement and has - or at least should have! - little-to-nothing with how people handle any software. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTML mouse at rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B From lproven at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 12:26:44 2016 From: lproven at gmail.com (Liam Proven) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:26:44 +0200 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On 30 March 2016 at 18:58, Fred Cisin wrote: > They define "abandonware" as: > "In order for a piece of software to be abandonware, it must, as a general > guideline: > Be over 7 years old. > Be out of support by the manufacturer. > Be mostly out of use by the general populace (abandoned)" > > So, if you are a software author, if you won't SUPPORT stuff that you did > over 7 years ago, they believe that they have a right to distribute it? No, not the same thing. I think the more important question is/are: Will the original author still *sell* it to you? Or, if it's a discontinued version of a still-current product, will it make it available to you in some way, possibly very cheaply or even free of charge? I think it is entirely reasonable to ask software vendors to make obsolete, discontinued, unsupported versions of products, versions which no longer run on current hardware or operating systems, available FOC. For instance, Microsoft offers Word 5.5 for DOS as a free download, as it is Y2K compliant, which no earlier versions were. For decades, Apple offered MacOS 7.5.5 this way, for instance. Actually, many vendors will not do this. If they don't, if they no longer even possess the product in any form, then I do think it's fair enough that others offer the service. I own real, licensed copies of OS/2 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.5. However, due to the age and location of the media, and the fact that my current laptop and desktop machines do not possess optical drives, nor any place to fit optical drives, let alone floppy drives, it's considerably more convenient to download these ancient OSes and run them in VMs than it is to use my actual originals. I am thus legally licensed to use them. I own them. I am not licensed to run CCP/M or CDOS, although I worked with these OSes in my first 2 jobs, back on the Isle of Man at the end of the 1980s and beginning of the 1990s. I am curious to see if I can get them running today. I cannot legally obtain them; Digital Research no longer exists. So, again, I think downloading an old one is legit. Many companies would, I think, happily block distribution of old versions, on the bases of protection of trade. I do not own Microsoft Office 365, nor Office 2013, 2010 or 2007, as I hate the new UI. I do not even like Office 2003 or XP as much as I liked older versions. I do own Office 2000 and 1997, though. So I run a downloaded copy of Word 97, under WINE. It understands the same file formats, is tiny and very fast even on my 2008-era laptop, as that machine is a decade newer than the kit it was designed for. I don't want any newer version, thanks; IMHO the product has degenerated since then. I legally own it. I have licences. So I download it, because I can and because Microsoft won't provide me with a copy of the version I prefer. Microsoft would prefer me to buy a new copy and then, perhaps, let me use my old media if I prefer. I don't want to. I own the version I want. As it happens, though, it's in a storage unit 1000 miles away, with an inconvenient sea in the way. So, I downloaded it. Am I admitting to scandalous software piracy? -- Liam Proven ? Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lproven at cix.co.uk ? GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lproven at hotmail.com ? Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) ? +420 702 829 053 (?R) From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Wed Mar 30 12:33:19 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:33:19 -0600 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56FC0DDF.8070706@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/30/2016 10:58 AM, Fred Cisin wrote: > They define "abandonware" as: > "In order for a piece of software to be abandonware, it must, as a > general guideline: > Be over 7 years old. > Be out of support by the manufacturer. > Be mostly out of use by the general populace (abandoned)" > > So, if you are a software author, if you won't SUPPORT stuff that you > did over 7 years ago, they believe that they have a right to distribute it? > > Copyright law does NOT take ownership away from you, and permit others > ot distribute it without compensation, based on refusal to continue to > market or support your previous versions and products. > All this time, I thought that you had to be DEAD before they could take > your work. > Dead ... That is Easy in the USA. Software can be re-written, now hardware DOC's are the problem. I pirate books because the places that sell or print or loan books believe anything after 3 years with computers is totally useless. FPGA's after 2 years are to be scrapped. Spent the last few days looking for a Oberon FPGA board,only 1 supplier has product. Ben. From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 12:50:59 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:50:59 -0400 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <7B75CF0B-BE64-410A-B8D8-C8FEFEAFC22A@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2016, at 1:26 PM, Liam Proven wrote: > > On 30 March 2016 at 18:58, Fred Cisin wrote: >> They define "abandonware" as: >> "In order for a piece of software to be abandonware, it must, as a general >> guideline: >> Be over 7 years old. >> Be out of support by the manufacturer. >> Be mostly out of use by the general populace (abandoned)" >> >> So, if you are a software author, if you won't SUPPORT stuff that you did >> over 7 years ago, they believe that they have a right to distribute it? > > No, not the same thing. > > I think the more important question is/are: > > ... > I own real, licensed copies of OS/2 2.0, 2.1, 3.0, 4.0 and 4.5. > However, due to the age and location of the media, and the fact that > my current laptop and desktop machines do not possess optical drives, > nor any place to fit optical drives, let alone floppy drives, it's > considerably more convenient to download these ancient OSes and run > them in VMs than it is to use my actual originals. > > I am thus legally licensed to use them. I own them. > ... > So I run a downloaded copy of Word 97, under WINE. It understands the > same file formats, is tiny and very fast even on my 2008-era laptop, > as that machine is a decade newer than the kit it was designed for. I > don't want any newer version, thanks; IMHO the product has degenerated > since then. > > I legally own it. I have licences. That's great. And a lot of discussion on this list is about how to get proper licenses, such as "hobbyist licenses" either one by one, or as general dispensation for hobbyist purposes. Or old software that is actually, legally, in the public domain. So we have OpenVMS users, and RSX-11 users, and OS/360 users, and CDC COS users... Some licenses are tied to specific hardware, others are not. I think PC type licenses typically are not, so for those you're clearly ok. Minicomputer or mainframe licenses might be a different matter, strictly speaking. In any case, the concern some of us have is that the "abandonware" site, by its definitions, clearly does not appear to care about licenses or copyright. That should give those of us who DO take care to operate by the rules -- with proper licenses and all that -- concern, because it makes the community look like it doesn't care about property right, when in fact a lot of the community DOES care about these things and only some disingenuous types ignore the subject. paul From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 30 12:52:00 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 10:52:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: >> So, if you are a software author, if you won't SUPPORT stuff that you did >> over 7 years ago, they believe that they have a right to distribute it? On Wed, 30 Mar 2016, Liam Proven wrote: > No, not the same thing. > I think the more important question is/are: > Will the original author still *sell* it to you? Or, if it's a > discontinued version of a still-current product, will it make it > available to you in some way, possibly very cheaply or even free of > charge? not necessarily. It is quite reasonable when a software company makes a policy that "If you buy the current version, then you automatically have right to use the older ones." (Obviously not the other way around, due to the revenue stream of updates). But, they are not legally obligated to be decent human beings. > I think it is entirely reasonable to ask software vendors to make > obsolete, discontinued, unsupported versions of products, versions > which no longer run on current hardware or operating systems, > available FOC. For instance, Microsoft offers Word 5.5 for DOS as a > free download, as it is Y2K compliant, which no earlier versions were. It is entirely reasonable to ASK, but not reasonable to demand, nor ASSUME. > Actually, many vendors will not do this. If they don't, if they no > longer even possess the product in any form, then I do think it's fair > enough that others offer the service. It's fair enough to produce a competing product. > them running today. I cannot legally obtain them; Digital Research no > longer exists. So, again, I think downloading an old one is legit. DRI sold the rights. It is up to the current owners to decide. They seem to be OK with giving it out. From jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu Wed Mar 30 12:58:14 2016 From: jnc at mercury.lcs.mit.edu (Noel Chiappa) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 13:58:14 -0400 (EDT) Subject: WinWorld Message-ID: <20160330175814.CF46D18C0A8@mercury.lcs.mit.edu> > From: Fred Cisin > All this time, I thought that you had to be DEAD before they could take > your work. Actually, in most jurisdictions, it's death+N years. In the US, thanks to the sleaziness of Congress, and the spinlessness of the US Supreme Court, N is now 70. Noel From christopher1400 at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 13:07:33 2016 From: christopher1400 at gmail.com (Christopher Satterfield) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:07:33 -0700 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: <7B75CF0B-BE64-410A-B8D8-C8FEFEAFC22A@comcast.net> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B75CF0B-BE64-410A-B8D8-C8FEFEAFC22A@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > > In any case, the concern some of us have is that the "abandonware" site, > by its definitions, clearly does not appear to care about licenses or > copyright. That should give those of us who DO take care to operate by the > rules -- with proper licenses and all that -- concern, because it makes the > community look like it doesn't care about property right, when in fact a > lot of the community DOES care about these things and only some > disingenuous types ignore the subject. > For the most part, the companies whose software is on the site don't really seem to care. A few of the sites have been around 10+ years and rarely does anyone speak up, mostly just Nintendo. I know the guy who runs Winworld and he's not gotten any DMCA takedown notices on the site contents and to the best of my knowledge neither has BetaArchive who also has a fairly large archive. From cisin at xenosoft.com Wed Mar 30 13:08:21 2016 From: cisin at xenosoft.com (Fred Cisin) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:08:21 -0700 (PDT) Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: On Wed, 30 Mar 2016, Mouse wrote: > As I understand the term, the rights owner has to be nonexistent or to > have proved unidentifiable or uncontactable (re which see below). The > case where the owner clearly exists but demonstrably does not care > about the software is, to my mind, a grey area. Disunirregardless of whether it SHOULD be that way, most property changes ownership, rather than be "un-owned" when the original owner is gone. If the "legal owner" explicitly declares that they don't care, then it can become public domain. But, the legaal owner not responding to inquiries, not still having the same address as 30 years ago, and not even necessarily showing up on a simple Google search, does NOT take ownership away from them. When I moved my office six blocks down the same street, one outfit declared my company to be out of business, and that therefore my work was up for grabs! >> Copyright law does NOT [...]. > There is no single "copyright law". . . . > That said, what you say is true in almost all jursidictions today. yes, I was speaking generaally, not the specifics, which do vary a lot. >> Q: To what extent are they making a "good faith" effort to contact >> the "prior" (actually current) owners of the intellectual property >> rights? > Yes. That. > To my mind, this is the most critical missing piece of information. > Since their definition does not mention it, I would be inclined to > assume they haven't bothered; if so, I consider their abandonware > definition to be sophistry, rigged in an attempt to make what they > happen to feel like doing sound a bit less unjustified. MANY copyright holders really don't care, and would sign off certain rights. When Sellam contacted George Morrow's widow about rights to the little red book "Quotations From Chairman Morrow", she gladly signed them over. If a copyright owner doesn't respond to a demand to relinquish the rights, that does NOT constitute release, although many wouldn't bother to object. > Of course, what relation any of this bears to what _should_ be is a > question for philosophy and much disagreement and has - or at least > should have! - little-to-nothing with how people handle any software. A significant shortening of the term of copyright for items with short life, such as computer software would make sense. However, the laws don't seem to be heading in that direction. "Don't mess with the mouse." From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 13:20:39 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 14:20:39 -0400 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B75CF0B-BE64-410A-B8D8-C8FEFEAFC22A@comcast.net> Message-ID: <43B4B693-3162-429D-A804-BA725C3AD3AF@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2016, at 2:07 PM, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 10:50 AM, Paul Koning > wrote: >> >> In any case, the concern some of us have is that the "abandonware" site, >> by its definitions, clearly does not appear to care about licenses or >> copyright. That should give those of us who DO take care to operate by the >> rules -- with proper licenses and all that -- concern, because it makes the >> community look like it doesn't care about property right, when in fact a >> lot of the community DOES care about these things and only some >> disingenuous types ignore the subject. >> > > For the most part, the companies whose software is on the site don't really > seem to care. A few of the sites have been around 10+ years and rarely does > anyone speak up, mostly just Nintendo. I know the guy who runs Winworld and > he's not gotten any DMCA takedown notices on the site contents and to the > best of my knowledge neither has BetaArchive who also has a fairly large > archive. Sure, and that makes sense. This means, of course, that making a good faith attempt to get permission and then use the Google approach :-) is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a blanket assumption that anything that's even mildly old is no longer something its owners care about. Some software does have a long business life; consider CDC NOS, which dates back to the 1960s but still had real world customers in the 21st century. In that case, when the owner was asked politely, permission was given for hobbyist use under certain restrictions, very much like we have seen with OpenVMS. Come to think of it, OpenVMS is another example of software substantially older than 7 years. paul From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 13:34:51 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 11:34:51 -0700 Subject: WinWorld In-Reply-To: <43B4B693-3162-429D-A804-BA725C3AD3AF@comcast.net> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <7B75CF0B-BE64-410A-B8D8-C8FEFEAFC22A@comcast.net> <43B4B693-3162-429D-A804-BA725C3AD3AF@comcast.net> Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 11:20 AM, Paul Koning wrote: > Sure, and that makes sense. This means, of course, that making a good faith attempt to get permission and then use the Google approach :-) is reasonable. What isn't reasonable is a blanket assumption that anything that's even mildly old is no longer something its owners care about. Some software does have a long business life; consider CDC NOS, which dates back to the 1960s but still had real world customers in the 21st century. In that case, when the owner was asked politely, permission was given for hobbyist use under certain restrictions, very much like we have seen with OpenVMS. Come to think of it, OpenVMS is another example of software substantially older than 7 years. > And GCOS. It started in 1962 as GECOS (the General Electric Comprehensive Operating Supervisor), and has an active user base, including companies offering support services. -- Charles From lists at sk2.org Wed Mar 30 15:49:30 2016 From: lists at sk2.org (Stephen Kitt) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 22:49:30 +0200 Subject: Random VGA question: 160x200 "high color" mode? In-Reply-To: References: <56D65E53.8030605@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20160330224930.7f4f0656@heffalump.sk2.org> On Wed, 2 Mar 2016 02:05:56 -0600, Ryan Eisworth wrote: [...] > On another note? a while back I read an article that said John Carmack (one > of the Doom developers) is wrote Quake on a 28-inch 16:9 CRT made by > Silicon Graphics/Intergraph that was capable of running at 2042x1152. See: > > > The workstation next to the pictured monitor appears to be also by > SGI/Intergraph, and looks similar to the Interserve 80, though the Pentium > II was not out yet in 1995 so it is likely an older model: > > > I?ve often wondered about computational power might be in that unit in > mid/early 1995. The Pentium Pro had not been released yet, and I know > Intergraph shipped multiprocessor Pentium Pro workstations, but prior to > that if it is an x86-based machine, I don?t think it could have been faster > than the 200 MHz P54CS. Intergraph shipped multi-processor Pentium workstations in 1994 and 1995 (the TD-4 at least); the fastest Pentium available in 1995 was the 133MHz P54CS. The March 1995 issue of Byte has a review of the Intergraph TD-4, and http://www.ceu-inc.com/intergr_6d.html mentions that the 28" monitor was intended to be used with the TD or TDZ workstations. Back then of course the fastest workstations used Alphas... Regards, Stephen From michael.99.thompson at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 18:11:46 2016 From: michael.99.thompson at gmail.com (Michael Thompson) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:11:46 -0400 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... Message-ID: > > Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:07:37 -0400 > From: Brian Marstella > Subject: Re: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a > mainframe... > > I'm still kicking myself for passing up an IBM mainframe and a Sun 2000 > that my previous employer no longer needed. I reasoned that I didn't have > space or power for them; never let logic and good sense dictate your > actions :) > I brought the Sun 2000E home, and its still here. I have to thin the herd a little so I can make room for some DEC equipment. -- Michael Thompson From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 18:44:34 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:44:34 -0500 Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: It cannot be overemphasized, that this is one of those situations wherein it seriously behooves the enthusiast community to sort this one out on our own, before some heavy-handed lawyer types - with big dollar signs in their eyes - sorts all of it for us.. because we all know how that would most likely go. Hint: Not to _anyone's_ advantage. Far as I see it, the vast majority of 'abandonware' in actual use, held in collections or at least offered for download, seems to consist of system ROMs, games and other entertainment titles from the home-computer / PC boom of the 80s and 90s. (As as side-note, it's of interest that arcade and home video game console ROMs, from roughly the same era, don't seem to fall into the abandonware class.. at least not so far as I have seen. Is this because the copyright holders are most often large, visible corporations? Perhaps, but it's also clear that the rights to a number of canonical abandonware titles, such as the Lucas Arts "SCUMM" point-and-click series, are likewise held by extant corporate concerns..) The seven-year rule is highly optimistic, even cheeky, as is the concept of an alleged right holder's refusal-to-acknowledge being deemed tacit permission to distribute the title(s). Ultimately, though, there must be a reasonable way to deal with all of this - and in a way that preserves both the rights of copyright holders / authors - while offering essentially free and open access to this large catalog of nostalgic and classic titles. I have a few ideas of my own.. but for now, I'd like to hear other members thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, it might necessarily involve bringing the rights holders and/or publishers over on to "our side". On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 1:08 PM, Fred Cisin wrote: > On Wed, 30 Mar 2016, Mouse wrote: > >> As I understand the term, the rights owner has to be nonexistent or to >> have proved unidentifiable or uncontactable (re which see below). The >> case where the owner clearly exists but demonstrably does not care >> about the software is, to my mind, a grey area. >> > > Disunirregardless of whether it SHOULD be that way, most property changes > ownership, rather than be "un-owned" when the original owner is gone. > > If the "legal owner" explicitly declares that they don't care, then it can > become public domain. > But, the legaal owner not responding to inquiries, not still having the > same address as 30 years ago, and not even necessarily showing up on a > simple Google search, does NOT take ownership away from them. When I moved > my office six blocks down the same street, one outfit declared my company > to be out of business, and that therefore my work was up for grabs! > > Copyright law does NOT [...]. >>> >> There is no single "copyright law". . . . That said, what you say is true >> in almost all jursidictions today. >> > > yes, I was speaking generaally, not the specifics, which do vary a lot. > > > Q: To what extent are they making a "good faith" effort to contact >>> the "prior" (actually current) owners of the intellectual property >>> rights? >>> >> Yes. That. >> To my mind, this is the most critical missing piece of information. >> Since their definition does not mention it, I would be inclined to >> assume they haven't bothered; if so, I consider their abandonware >> definition to be sophistry, rigged in an attempt to make what they >> happen to feel like doing sound a bit less unjustified. >> > > MANY copyright holders really don't care, and would sign off certain > rights. When Sellam contacted George Morrow's widow about rights to the > little red book "Quotations From Chairman Morrow", she gladly signed them > over. > > If a copyright owner doesn't respond to a demand to relinquish the rights, > that does NOT constitute release, although many wouldn't bother to object. > > Of course, what relation any of this bears to what _should_ be is a >> question for philosophy and much disagreement and has - or at least >> should have! - little-to-nothing with how people handle any software. >> > > A significant shortening of the term of copyright for items with short > life, such as computer software would make sense. However, the laws don't > seem to be heading in that direction. "Don't mess with the mouse." > > From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 19:55:25 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:55:25 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Give him another thirty years, he'll be as jaded and cranky as the best of us. ;-) (Kidding aside, it's all very heartwarming.) On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 6:11 PM, Michael Thompson < michael.99.thompson at gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Date: Tue, 29 Mar 2016 22:07:37 -0400 > > From: Brian Marstella > > Subject: Re: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a > > mainframe... > > > > I'm still kicking myself for passing up an IBM mainframe and a Sun 2000 > > that my previous employer no longer needed. I reasoned that I didn't have > > space or power for them; never let logic and good sense dictate your > > actions :) > > > > I brought the Sun 2000E home, and its still here. I have to thin the herd a > little so I can make room for some DEC equipment. > > -- > Michael Thompson > From ethan at 757.org Wed Mar 30 19:59:36 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 20:59:36 -0400 (EDT) Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: > (As as side-note, it's of interest that arcade and home video game console > ROMs, from roughly the same era, don't seem to fall into the abandonware > class.. at least not so far as I have seen. Is this because the copyright > holders are most often large, visible corporations? Perhaps, but it's also > clear that the rights to a number of canonical abandonware titles, such as > the Lucas Arts "SCUMM" point-and-click series, are likewise held by extant > corporate concerns..) It's because the authors of the old games can keep reselling the same stuff every time a new platform comes out. Windows versions, mobile phone versions, etc. Or at least the corporations that own the titles do. There are still issues with ownership though. -- Ethan O'Toole From paulkoning at comcast.net Wed Mar 30 20:26:23 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 21:26:23 -0400 Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <59E163A5-E8F4-41BB-9074-E9D5E4CE1DE9@comcast.net> > On Mar 30, 2016, at 7:44 PM, drlegendre . wrote: > > It cannot be overemphasized, that this is one of those situations wherein > it seriously behooves the enthusiast community to sort this one out on our > own, before some heavy-handed lawyer types - with big dollar signs in their > eyes - sorts all of it for us.. because we all know how that would most > likely go. Hint: Not to _anyone's_ advantage. Thank you. That was precisely my point. And this is why we need to be harsh about people who fling around those fake terms and misleading notions. > ... > Ultimately, though, there must be a reasonable way to deal with all of this > - and in a way that preserves both the rights of copyright holders / > authors - while offering essentially free and open access to this large > catalog of nostalgic and classic titles. Indeed. But I think it is pointless to expect a single answer, because circumstances vary. The only way a single answer could be reached is by laws (and even then it's only at best a single answer in any one country). But obviously it is not likely that if laws were passed on this subject that we would like the result. > I have a few ideas of my own.. but for now, I'd like to hear other members > thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, it might necessarily involve bringing > the rights holders and/or publishers over on to "our side". Yes, that's precisely correct. And doing so requires treating each individually as the rightful owner of something we're interested in, and treating that owner with respect rather than dismissal. Fred made that point quite clear also. paul From aek at bitsavers.org Wed Mar 30 21:26:24 2016 From: aek at bitsavers.org (Al Kossow) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 19:26:24 -0700 Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: <59E163A5-E8F4-41BB-9074-E9D5E4CE1DE9@comcast.net> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <59E163A5-E8F4-41BB-9074-E9D5E4CE1DE9@comcast.net> Message-ID: <56FC8AD0.3040607@bitsavers.org> On 3/30/16 6:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> I have a few ideas of my own.. but for now, I'd like to hear other members >> thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, it might necessarily involve bringing >> the rights holders and/or publishers over on to "our side". > > Yes, that's precisely correct. And doing so requires treating each individually as the rightful owner of something we're interested in, and treating that owner with respect rather than dismissal. Fred made that point quite clear also. > > And that process, from personal experience with several large companies while working at CHM, takes time and most often someone sympathetic on the inside. It took personal lobbying of Steve Jobs by Andy Herztfeld and Bill Atkinson to get Apple to release the Macpaint and Quickdraw sources. Fortunately, that example has opened up other code from Apple (like the Apple DOS sources) that are being made available. There are also VERY few examples where we were able to get an agreement beyond non-commercial educational use. Claiming that any MSFT product is "abandonware" is absurd. They DO very much care. From c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 22:30:25 2016 From: c.murray.mccullough at gmail.com (Murray McCullough) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:30:25 -0400 Subject: Apple at 40 Message-ID: I wish to congratulate Apple on its 40 anniversary today. An early pioneer in our cherished hobby. Happy computing. Murray :) From drlegendre at gmail.com Wed Mar 30 23:20:49 2016 From: drlegendre at gmail.com (drlegendre .) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:20:49 -0500 Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: <56FC8AD0.3040607@bitsavers.org> References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> <59E163A5-E8F4-41BB-9074-E9D5E4CE1DE9@comcast.net> <56FC8AD0.3040607@bitsavers.org> Message-ID: "Claiming that any MSFT product is "abandonware" is absurd. They DO very much care." You dang well know it. Do you even have any idea just how much of Windows 386 is still in the NT5 / Win10 codebase?! ;-) On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 9:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > On 3/30/16 6:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > >> >> > I have a few ideas of my own.. but for now, I'd like to hear other members >>> thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, it might necessarily involve bringing >>> the rights holders and/or publishers over on to "our side". >>> >> >> Yes, that's precisely correct. And doing so requires treating each >> individually as the rightful owner of something we're interested in, and >> treating that owner with respect rather than dismissal. Fred made that >> point quite clear also. >> >> >> > And that process, from personal experience with several large companies > while working at CHM, takes time and most often someone sympathetic on the > inside. It took personal lobbying of Steve Jobs by Andy Herztfeld and Bill > Atkinson to get Apple to release the Macpaint and Quickdraw sources. > Fortunately, that example has opened up other code from Apple (like the > Apple DOS sources) that are being made available. > > There are also VERY few examples where we were able to get an agreement > beyond non-commercial educational use. > > Claiming that any MSFT product is "abandonware" is absurd. They DO very > much care. > > > > From other at oryx.us Wed Mar 30 23:56:04 2016 From: other at oryx.us (Jerry Kemp) Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2016 23:56:04 -0500 Subject: Here's what happens when an 18 year old buys a mainframe... In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FCADE4.7010109@oryx.us> I know its too much to wish for, but as I look at your Sun 2000E comment, I can't but hope and wonder if you are anywhere near the DFW metroplex area? Jerry On 03/30/16 06:11 PM, Michael Thompson wrote: >> > > I brought the Sun 2000E home, and its still here. I have to thin the herd a > little so I can make room for some DEC equipment. > From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 02:38:07 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 03:38:07 -0400 Subject: Sun 4 disk images? Message-ID: I'm presently working on a couple of Sun 4/110 systems. To save time, does anyone have a bootable Solaris disk image for such - to use with SCSI2SD? Note sun4 architecture - not sun4c or sun4m. Also may be on the lookout for a colour frame buffer; mine may be terminally flaky. Anything that works with a 4/110 - VME or P4 bus. Thanks Mike http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From cctalk at beyondthepale.ie Thu Mar 31 04:20:48 2016 From: cctalk at beyondthepale.ie (Peter Coghlan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:20:48 +0100 (WET-DST) Subject: "Abandonware" and copyright [was Re: WinWorld] In-Reply-To: "Your message dated Wed, 30 Mar 2016 18:44:34 -0500" References: <4205696C-5C81-404F-A268-E1AC6DBB38CB@comcast.net> <56FBFDDC.6020501@jetnet.ab.ca> <201603301717.NAA01320@Stone.Rodents-Montreal.ORG> Message-ID: <01PYGFYV7SA200CQ04@beyondthepale.ie> > > I have a few ideas of my own.. but for now, I'd like to hear other members > thoughts on the matter. Ultimately, it might necessarily involve bringing > the rights holders and/or publishers over on to "our side". > I wouldn't. I've already heard them many times. This has been gone through numerous times before on the list, both before and after the last big bang. Anyone who wants to know what the conclusions or lack of them were can reread the archives. Regards, Peter Coghlan. From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Mar 31 05:57:56 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 05:57:56 -0500 Subject: Subject: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: <2A4185BD-485F-4088-A513-926F1325CFBE@MatlockFamily.com> The ?AT. indirect command task will be found in LB:[3,54] and there are three versions of it (ICM.TSK, ICMFSL.TSK, and ICMRES.TSK) if this is a RSX11M+ system. This is the task image that is failing to load is probably ICMFSK.TSK. There is a text file in LB:[1,54]SYSVMR.CMD you can type to your screen: PIP TI:=LB:[1,54]SYSVMR.CMD a line in the file is: INS [3,54]ICMFSL/INC=10000 ! Indirect command file processor just above that line should be: INS [1,1]FCSRES/PAR=GEN/RON=YES ! FCS resident/supervisor-mode library if this is the case then then the ICMFSK.TSK is the one that is failing to load. So after the system boots and the ?AT. fails, you can: >REM ?AT. >INS LB:[3,54]ICM.TSK >@LB:[1,2]STARTUP.CMD which should bring the system up. It is likely that you could also use ICMRES.TSK which also uses the FCSRES library. To see if the library is loaded the command is CBD. If you see FCSRES displayed then ICMRES.TSK should also work. Once the system completes STARTUP.CMD, then you should make a change in the system image [1,54]RSX11M.SYS to use the ICM.TSK at the next boot up. To do this you need to use VMR which makes changes in the system image similar to the MCR commands on a running system. >SET /UIC=[1,54] >SET /DEF=[1,54] >INS $VMR >VMR Enter filename: RSX11M.SYS VMR>REM ?AT. VMR>INS [3,54]ICM.TSK VMR>^Z (Enter a control Z) This sequence should cause the next boot to come up and chain to [1,2]STARTUP.CMD cleanly. Then you can rebuild INDFSL with the SYSGEN procedure as described by the previous post. Mark Matlock >> -----Original Message----- >> From: supervinx [supervinx at libero.it] >> Received: Donnerstag, 24 M?rz 2016, 23:30 >> To: cctalk at classiccmp.org [cctalk at classiccmp.org] >> Subject: RSX-11 trouble >> >> Hi! >> Got a MicroPDP 11 plus. >> It seems to be misconfigured. >> It can't execute .CMD files, reporting >> Task "...AT." terminated >> Load failure. Read error >> >> No disk errors are reported with ELI DU0:/SH >> >> Disk seems to work: I can run .TSK files. >> The file STARTUP.CMD isn't read at all. >> >> Any hints? Which file is executed right before STARTUP.CMD? >> I see two RED commands and a MOU before it tries to read [1,2]STARTUP.CMD and reports the aforementioned error. >> >> Thanks >> > Well... no IND.TSK is present :( > May be they had space issues? From supervinx at libero.it Thu Mar 31 07:41:55 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:41:55 +0200 Subject: Subject: RSX-11 trouble In-Reply-To: <2A4185BD-485F-4088-A513-926F1325CFBE@MatlockFamily.com> References: <2A4185BD-485F-4088-A513-926F1325CFBE@MatlockFamily.com> Message-ID: <1459428115.4868.12.camel@PIV-Ubuntu> Il giorno gio, 31/03/2016 alle 05.57 -0500, Mark Matlock ha scritto: > The ?AT. indirect command task will be found in LB:[3,54] and there are three versions of it (ICM.TSK, ICMFSL.TSK, and ICMRES.TSK) if this is a RSX11M+ system. This is the task image that is failing to load is probably ICMFSK.TSK. There is a text file in LB:[1,54]SYSVMR.CMD you can type to your screen: > > PIP TI:=LB:[1,54]SYSVMR.CMD > > a line in the file is: > > INS [3,54]ICMFSL/INC=10000 ! Indirect command file processor > > just above that line should be: > > INS [1,1]FCSRES/PAR=GEN/RON=YES ! FCS resident/supervisor-mode library > > if this is the case then then the ICMFSK.TSK is the one that is failing to load. So after the system boots and the ?AT. > fails, you can: > > >REM ?AT. > >INS LB:[3,54]ICM.TSK > >@LB:[1,2]STARTUP.CMD > > which should bring the system up. It is likely that you could also use ICMRES.TSK which also uses the FCSRES library. To see if the library is loaded the command is CBD. If you see FCSRES displayed then ICMRES.TSK should also work. > > Once the system completes STARTUP.CMD, then you should make a change in the system image [1,54]RSX11M.SYS to use > the ICM.TSK at the next boot up. To do this you need to use VMR which makes changes in the system image similar to the MCR commands > on a running system. > > >SET /UIC=[1,54] > >SET /DEF=[1,54] > >INS $VMR > >VMR > Enter filename: RSX11M.SYS > VMR>REM ?AT. > VMR>INS [3,54]ICM.TSK > VMR>^Z (Enter a control Z) > > This sequence should cause the next boot to come up and chain to [1,2]STARTUP.CMD cleanly. Then you can rebuild INDFSL with the SYSGEN procedure as described by the previous post. > > Mark Matlock Thank for your answer. I'll try your suggestions. It's RSX-11 and I've found some troubles on the disk. I ran VFY with the /RC option. Some files can't be read (it reports -4 and -101 errors, parity error and forced error mark). INDEXF.SYS itself appears to have a bad spot. So I'm tempted to backup all relevant data and reinstall. BTW there's no [3,54] on the fixed disk. From lyokoboy0 at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 09:41:32 2016 From: lyokoboy0 at gmail.com (devin davison) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:41:32 -0400 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: Cool to see another SGI guy around here. Welcome to the list. Im scheduled to pick up a couple of Tezro's next month along with some related hardware and software. ill post back with some pictures to show what I pick up. On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96 > > I recently picked up one of these devices. I'll apologize in advance if > you folks have already had a discussion about the MiST. Basically, it's an > FPGA that's capable of emulation (for lack of a better term) of many > platforms on a hardware level. I only got mine about two weeks ago, and I'm > still sifting through a ton of material and focused mainly on the Amiga and > ST platforms (stuff I played with as a pre-teen and teen). I have to say, > so far it's pretty awesome. > > The coolest feature in my opinion is the standard joystick ports on the > side that "just work" with all the emulation targets. I always favored > using Sega Genesis controllers in those (rather than the rinky-dink little > "red joystick" of the time). They work oh-so-great with this rig. > > The only issue is finding a monitor that doesn't have a fit over 15Khz > refresh rates. I use an NEC MultiSync with sync-on-green and all that fun > stuff. I'm still busy getting AROS running on "my Amiga" (which is > represented by an SD card with my ROM image from my A3000 and a metric > crapton of floppy images). > > You basically hit a keystroke or joystick combo and you can swap floppies, > reboot, etc.. If you are into any of these, I can recommend the MiST: > > * ST/STE (also on SCART 15KHz) > * Amiga 500/600/1200 ( AGA CORE BETA core) > * C64 (partially - still developed) > * Atari 8bit ( 96%) > * Collecovision > * ZX81 > * Atari 2600 > * ZX Spectrum with AY, aslo with DIVMMC and ESXDOS > * SEGA GENESIS > * Apple II(x) > * MSX > * AMSTRAD CPC (BETA) > * A few others, you'll want to check. > > > BTW, I'm new to the list (1st post). So, I'll introduce myself. I'm > just another IT worker with a background in Unix systems. I'm 41 and I > started with HP-UX 10.x (high school) and branched out to every kind of > Unix box I could get my hands on (Yes. I'm one of those Unix zealots, but > that might be too gentle a description). I spent the 90's with SGIs (which > I still collect, I have an O2+, two Indys, and a bruzin' Tezro fully built > out). I spent the early 2k's coding for supper as a "security engineer" > (read: writing exploits which I don't much care for now) and some stints as > a Tru64 admin. On the in between gigs and contracts I've touched just about > everything (and in the last 10 years a lot of new Unix hardware). I've > professionally admin'd or coded for IRIX, Solaris, Linux, Tru64 (OSF/1 or > Digital Unix for some), FreeBSD, HP-UX, UNICOS, and AIX. As a hobbyist, > I've also tinkered greatly with NetBSD (maybe my favorite), OpenBSD, and > Minix. Then of course there is the spacey or rare stuff I've put hands on. > I'm talking about things like UnixWare, Xenix, SCO, SunOS, BSDi, DG/UX, > NeXTStep/OpenStep, A/UX, and even non-Unix stuff like Sprite, L4, QNX, > HURD, BeOS, Haiku, AROS, Genode, and others. I code fairly well in C, shell > script, and TCL. I code not-as-well in AREXX, Python, Ruby, PHP, Lua, and a > few other scripting languages. I'm pleased to be on this list, and to make > your myriad acquaintances. > > -Swift > > PS: My spell checker needs and ex-lax after going insane over this email > full of Unix variants and ancient platforms. > From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 09:56:10 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:56:10 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: First off the MiST looks neat! I picked up a the UltraSatan unit for my Mega 2 ST from Lotharek and the install went well. I plan to buy the SIO2SD unit at some point in the future for my 800XL/130XE. How much are Tezros going for? I assume not that many were sold. I used to be a huge SGI fanboy, but the only thing I have left is Octane and Indigo. Do the Tezros have power supply issues like the Fuel? My coworker sitting next to me has a Fuel sitting on his desks (for fun) and it's dead from a PSU issue or motherboard power issue. I think he said it's common. > Cool to see another SGI guy around here. Welcome to the list. > Im scheduled to pick up a couple of Tezro's next month along with some > related hardware and software. ill post back with some pictures to show > what I pick up. > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > >> >> http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96 >> >> I recently picked up one of these devices. I'll apologize in advance if >> you folks have already had a discussion about the MiST. Basically, it's an >> FPGA that's capable of emulation (for lack of a better term) of many >> platforms on a hardware level. I only got mine about two weeks ago, and I'm >> still sifting through a ton of material and focused mainly on the Amiga and >> ST platforms (stuff I played with as a pre-teen and teen). I have to say, >> so far it's pretty awesome. >> >> The coolest feature in my opinion is the standard joystick ports on the >> side that "just work" with all the emulation targets. I always favored >> using Sega Genesis controllers in those (rather than the rinky-dink little >> "red joystick" of the time). They work oh-so-great with this rig. >> >> The only issue is finding a monitor that doesn't have a fit over 15Khz >> refresh rates. I use an NEC MultiSync with sync-on-green and all that fun >> stuff. I'm still busy getting AROS running on "my Amiga" (which is >> represented by an SD card with my ROM image from my A3000 and a metric >> crapton of floppy images). >> >> You basically hit a keystroke or joystick combo and you can swap floppies, >> reboot, etc.. If you are into any of these, I can recommend the MiST: >> >> * ST/STE (also on SCART 15KHz) >> * Amiga 500/600/1200 ( AGA CORE BETA core) >> * C64 (partially - still developed) >> * Atari 8bit ( 96%) >> * Collecovision >> * ZX81 >> * Atari 2600 >> * ZX Spectrum with AY, aslo with DIVMMC and ESXDOS >> * SEGA GENESIS >> * Apple II(x) >> * MSX >> * AMSTRAD CPC (BETA) >> * A few others, you'll want to check. >> >> >> BTW, I'm new to the list (1st post). So, I'll introduce myself. I'm >> just another IT worker with a background in Unix systems. I'm 41 and I >> started with HP-UX 10.x (high school) and branched out to every kind of >> Unix box I could get my hands on (Yes. I'm one of those Unix zealots, but >> that might be too gentle a description). I spent the 90's with SGIs (which >> I still collect, I have an O2+, two Indys, and a bruzin' Tezro fully built >> out). I spent the early 2k's coding for supper as a "security engineer" >> (read: writing exploits which I don't much care for now) and some stints as >> a Tru64 admin. On the in between gigs and contracts I've touched just about >> everything (and in the last 10 years a lot of new Unix hardware). I've >> professionally admin'd or coded for IRIX, Solaris, Linux, Tru64 (OSF/1 or >> Digital Unix for some), FreeBSD, HP-UX, UNICOS, and AIX. As a hobbyist, >> I've also tinkered greatly with NetBSD (maybe my favorite), OpenBSD, and >> Minix. Then of course there is the spacey or rare stuff I've put hands on. >> I'm talking about things like UnixWare, Xenix, SCO, SunOS, BSDi, DG/UX, >> NeXTStep/OpenStep, A/UX, and even non-Unix stuff like Sprite, L4, QNX, >> HURD, BeOS, Haiku, AROS, Genode, and others. I code fairly well in C, shell >> script, and TCL. I code not-as-well in AREXX, Python, Ruby, PHP, Lua, and a >> few other scripting languages. I'm pleased to be on this list, and to make >> your myriad acquaintances. >> >> -Swift >> >> PS: My spell checker needs and ex-lax after going insane over this email >> full of Unix variants and ancient platforms. >> > -- Ethan O'Toole From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Mar 31 09:58:13 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:58:13 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: I'm an SGI guy too! In college I worked as a sysadmin for a lab running a Challenge, and Indigo and Indy desktops. I have a nice O2 with a 1600SW, and just got an Octane that seems to have a bad graphics board. In the past I had an Indy and an Indigo with ELAN graphics. I'd love to have a Tezro, or even a Fuel, but they're hard to come by! On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 9:41 AM, devin davison wrote: > Cool to see another SGI guy around here. Welcome to the list. > Im scheduled to pick up a couple of Tezro's next month along with some > related hardware and software. ill post back with some pictures to show > what I pick up. > > On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 12:18 PM, Swift Griggs > wrote: > > > > > http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96 > > > > I recently picked up one of these devices. I'll apologize in advance if > > you folks have already had a discussion about the MiST. Basically, it's > an > > FPGA that's capable of emulation (for lack of a better term) of many > > platforms on a hardware level. I only got mine about two weeks ago, and > I'm > > still sifting through a ton of material and focused mainly on the Amiga > and > > ST platforms (stuff I played with as a pre-teen and teen). I have to say, > > so far it's pretty awesome. > > > > The coolest feature in my opinion is the standard joystick ports on the > > side that "just work" with all the emulation targets. I always favored > > using Sega Genesis controllers in those (rather than the rinky-dink > little > > "red joystick" of the time). They work oh-so-great with this rig. > > > > The only issue is finding a monitor that doesn't have a fit over 15Khz > > refresh rates. I use an NEC MultiSync with sync-on-green and all that fun > > stuff. I'm still busy getting AROS running on "my Amiga" (which is > > represented by an SD card with my ROM image from my A3000 and a metric > > crapton of floppy images). > > > > You basically hit a keystroke or joystick combo and you can swap > floppies, > > reboot, etc.. If you are into any of these, I can recommend the MiST: > > > > * ST/STE (also on SCART 15KHz) > > * Amiga 500/600/1200 ( AGA CORE BETA core) > > * C64 (partially - still developed) > > * Atari 8bit ( 96%) > > * Collecovision > > * ZX81 > > * Atari 2600 > > * ZX Spectrum with AY, aslo with DIVMMC and ESXDOS > > * SEGA GENESIS > > * Apple II(x) > > * MSX > > * AMSTRAD CPC (BETA) > > * A few others, you'll want to check. > > > > > > BTW, I'm new to the list (1st post). So, I'll introduce myself. I'm > > just another IT worker with a background in Unix systems. I'm 41 and I > > started with HP-UX 10.x (high school) and branched out to every kind of > > Unix box I could get my hands on (Yes. I'm one of those Unix zealots, but > > that might be too gentle a description). I spent the 90's with SGIs > (which > > I still collect, I have an O2+, two Indys, and a bruzin' Tezro fully > built > > out). I spent the early 2k's coding for supper as a "security engineer" > > (read: writing exploits which I don't much care for now) and some stints > as > > a Tru64 admin. On the in between gigs and contracts I've touched just > about > > everything (and in the last 10 years a lot of new Unix hardware). I've > > professionally admin'd or coded for IRIX, Solaris, Linux, Tru64 (OSF/1 or > > Digital Unix for some), FreeBSD, HP-UX, UNICOS, and AIX. As a hobbyist, > > I've also tinkered greatly with NetBSD (maybe my favorite), OpenBSD, and > > Minix. Then of course there is the spacey or rare stuff I've put hands > on. > > I'm talking about things like UnixWare, Xenix, SCO, SunOS, BSDi, DG/UX, > > NeXTStep/OpenStep, A/UX, and even non-Unix stuff like Sprite, L4, QNX, > > HURD, BeOS, Haiku, AROS, Genode, and others. I code fairly well in C, > shell > > script, and TCL. I code not-as-well in AREXX, Python, Ruby, PHP, Lua, > and a > > few other scripting languages. I'm pleased to be on this list, and to > make > > your myriad acquaintances. > > > > -Swift > > > > PS: My spell checker needs and ex-lax after going insane over this email > > full of Unix variants and ancient platforms. > > > -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 10:45:15 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 09:45:15 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > First off the MiST looks neat! It's an "FPGA computer" it's hyper-neat, if you ask me. :-) > I picked up a the UltraSatan unit for my Mega 2 ST from Lotharek and the > install went well. I plan to buy the SIO2SD unit at some point in the > future for my 800XL/130XE. He's got all kinds of interesting little hardware bits. It stokes a bit of nostalgia for the 90's when there was all manner of strange dohickeys and frodads for sale for Amigas and STs. I was too poor to buy any of it, or an SGI of my own. I think when you have geek lust for something as a kid or teen, but can never get your hands on it, it makes it even more "special" to you as an adult (where other folks just see some old obsolete junk). > How much are Tezros going for? I assume not that many were sold. I got a deal on mine for $1000 about two years ago. The owner didn't think the machine was in working condition. It turns out it was a decked out full-quad rig that came from a California special effects house. It wouldn't post or boot. I knew I could sell the CPU boards alone for more than $1k, so I bought it. As it turned out, the only problem was that someone had juggled the boards on the system as they decommissioned it (probably to remove a special board the still wanted), and in so doing didn't properly re-seat everything. At the time, similar systems were going for $4k to $10k on ebay. > I used to be a huge SGI fanboy, but the only thing I have left is Octane > and Indigo. I've had an Indigo and I've worked on Octanes quite a bit but never had one of my own. The problem with both of them (and my Tezro) is how huge and loud they are. If I ever buy a house, I'm going to modify a closet to put this crap into so I don't have to hear it. That's the main thing that holds me back from using them more. I use my Indys more than my O2 or my Tezro because of the noise. Still, the Tezro can do full HD (1920x1080) graphics in 24 bit color. It also has a DVI interface that doesn't require a special 13W3 monitor or huge 13W3 -> VGA sync-on-green adapter or a special keyboard & mouse like the Indigo (which is a wonderful design, otherwise). > Do the Tezros have power supply issues like the Fuel? Mine doesn't. I'm on Nekochan.net quite a bit and I don't see any chronic issues with the Tezro power supplies. However, I can confirm the issues with the Fuel. > My coworker sitting next to me has a Fuel sitting on his desks (for fun) > and it's dead from a PSU issue or motherboard power issue. I think he > said it's common. Fortunately, there are pretty easy hacks to replace the PS on a Fuel. I've got mixed feelings about the Fuel, but it's still a fun machine. If it wasn't for the noise, the O2 would probably be my favorite. It's one of those completely designed-from-scratch true hardware-Unix-workstations with some neat ideas (like the ICE co-processor and the outstanding A/V option). The unified memory architecture of the O2 was also really neat. The first time I saw someone use an O2 to super-smooth zoom down on a 16000x16000 satellite image I was very impressed. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 11:01:05 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 10:01:05 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, Ben Sinclair wrote: > I'm an SGI guy too! :-) > In college I worked as a sysadmin for a lab running a Challenge, and > Indigo and Indy desktops. Cool. From that era I'd guess you mean the Challenge S which was an Indy without a framebuffer. There were Challenge series machines to match most of the architectures before the O2. They were usually stripped down server versions of whatever workstation was current. I still have a Challenge S with a 200Mhz R4600 in it (fastest R4k). I use it as a web server. You can also use the 180Mhz R5k in that guy. I love watching people try to hack it. They get very confused (and doubtless quite frustrated). > I have a nice O2 with a 1600SW, and just got an Octane that seems to > have a bad graphics board. Nice. I never did pick up a 1600SW. They were too expensive for me when they came out, and then by the time they came down VGA based LCDs were cheaper and better. However, I'm often still tempted since the O2 has a special rig for the 1600SW, as you know. It allows the O2 to use better than 1280x1024 which, with a normal LCD, is as high as you can go. I still use an NEC sync-on-green capable multisync LCD that's native to 1280x1024. > In the past I had an Indy and an Indigo with ELAN graphics. Cool. I have two Indy's and a Challenge S, and I used to have an Indigo as well (kinda wish I still had it). I love love love the design of the Indigo. I just wish they didn't have 13W3 graphics and proprietary keyboards and mice. My Indigo didn't have ELAN, though just "Entry" graphics. However, one of my two Indy's is totally maxxed. It's an R5k with max RAM (256M) and XZ graphics. I even made a custom case cover for it out of stainless steel. My other Indy has a Cosmo board and a R4600. They are actually about the same speed (180Mhz R5k @= 200Mhz R4600). Both are fully badged and scratchless. I store the spare ones I'm not using in a foam-in-place steel road case that used to be used for a huge mixing board (nutty eh?). > I'd love to have a Tezro, or even a Fuel, but they're hard to come by! I lurked on Ebay looking for a Tezro for over a year before I found the one I chanced across. Now, I need a dmedia setup for it, but I think I'll wait just a tad bit longer. I need to get rid of some stuff and clear some space to _use_ the darn thing. My house is already looking junk-yard-esque. I'm too that point of "OMG, I this is way over the top my wife is right, I gotta get rid of some of this stuff!" I think my Ultra 60 is going to have to go along with a ton of books and a small mountain of parts I've deemed not-cool-enough, now. I just need it to stop snowing here long enough to get'er done. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 12:35:04 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > It's an "FPGA computer" it's hyper-neat, if you ask me. :-) Like that Transmeta! > SGI of my own. I think when you have geek lust for something as a kid or > teen, but can never get your hands on it, it makes it even more "special" to > you as an adult (where other folks just see some old obsolete junk). Same. Drooling over the Wired 1.1 SGI Ads with the Indigo. And seeing the Sparcstation 20s at NASA LaRC when I was in high school. > I got a deal on mine for $1000 about two years ago. The owner didn't think > the machine was in working condition. It turns out it was a decked out > full-quad rig that came from a California special effects house. It wouldn't > post or boot. I knew I could sell the CPU boards alone for more than $1k, so > I bought it. As it turned out, the only problem was that someone had juggled > the boards on the system as they decommissioned it (probably to remove a > special board the still wanted), and in so doing didn't properly re-seat > everything. At the time, similar systems were going for $4k to $10k on ebay. Interesting. The Origin 350 was another machine that had my eye. I've never seen a Tezro IRL. So wild looking. > I've had an Indigo and I've worked on Octanes quite a bit but never had one > of my own. The problem with both of them (and my Tezro) is how huge and loud > they are. If I ever buy a house, I'm going to modify a closet to put this > crap into so I don't have to hear it. That's the main thing that holds me > back from using them more. I use my Indys more than my O2 or my Tezro because > of the noise. Nice! My past history of machines I've owned by have given away or once in a while sold: Origin 2000 full rack Origin 200 Challenge XL (x2) Challenge L (x4) Onyx RE (x3) Crimson (x2) Vault L Indy (x 8?) Challenge S (x 2 IIRC) Indigo (R3K and R4K, hopefully still have the R4K CPU card) Indigo^2 (both Teal and Purple) Octane Never owned an O2, randomly just never landed one. In that era I worked at NASA LaRC as a system admin and we had Origin 2000s, one Onyx^2 running a cave, Challenge XLs, and Origin 3800s. SGI machines were interesting. The origin 2000 and Challenge XL are really friendly large computers to own. They're not crazy overbuilt, so they're lightweight and friendly. Power costs are definitely a consideration, and I'm in the same boat regarding storage. Housing costs have doubled+ so moving large computer collection and arcade collection everytime landlord raises rent too much or job changes is a P.I.T.A. If only the US Government would stop manipulating the market in cahoots with the bankers, prices would sink sink sink. Hopefully another crash soon! In the meantime, I do have my Cray J932SE up for sale. It's on eBay but I'd rather sell around eBay. I need to shed that and an industrial robot arm to clear out storage back in Norfolk! > Mine doesn't. I'm on Nekochan.net quite a bit and I don't see any chronic > issues with the Tezro power supplies. However, I can confirm the issues with > the Fuel. Cool. Probably bad caps, I replaced 4 in an Indigo^2 that I sold. > Fortunately, there are pretty easy hacks to replace the PS on a Fuel. I've > got mixed feelings about the Fuel, but it's still a fun machine. If it wasn't > for the noise, the O2 would probably be my favorite. It's one of those > completely designed-from-scratch true hardware-Unix-workstations with some > neat ideas (like the ICE co-processor and the outstanding A/V option). The > unified memory architecture of the O2 was also really neat. The first time I > saw someone use an O2 to super-smooth zoom down on a 16000x16000 satellite > image I was very impressed. He was saying he can swap the PSU with a PC one, I asked him if it's a bad cap issue. He has a 2nd motherboard for it as well. He perked up when I mentioned Tezro. He also hasn't seen one IRL -- Ethan O'Toole From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Mar 31 12:43:54 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:43:54 +0100 Subject: PDP8-i front panel font. Message-ID: <56FD61DA.6050506@btinternet.com> Hi Guys Does anybody know or can suggest what the font is on a pdp-8i? Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 12:59:13 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:59:13 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Wed, Mar 30, 2016 at 11:18 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > http://lotharek.pl/product.php?pid=96 > > I recently picked up one of these devices. I'll apologize in advance if > you folks have already had a discussion about the MiST. Basically, it's an > FPGA that's capable of emulation (for lack of a better term) of many > platforms on a hardware level. I only got mine about two weeks ago, and I'm > still sifting through a ton of material and focused mainly on the Amiga and > ST platforms (stuff I played with as a pre-teen and teen). I have to say, > so far it's pretty awesome. > > > I don't mean to detract from people's enthusiasm about the FPGA emulations of these older systems... I have gone back and forth over getting something like the MiST or minimig myself but I always come back to it being a facsimilie of the the real hardware, but it's just as expensive and as uncommon as the real hardware (granted you can emulate more than one), and that the software emulation of the various systems that you mentioned are in many cases very, very good that I have a hard time justifying the purchase of one. Different people like different things of course and I'm not discouraging anyone that wants one...I often think about this in the context of real article vs software emulation as well. Are these better, the same as or worse than the software emulation options commonly available? From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 31 13:21:41 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 12:21:41 -0600 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/31/2016 11:59 AM, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > I don't mean to detract from people's enthusiasm about the FPGA emulations > of these older systems... I have gone back and forth over getting something > like the MiST or minimig myself but I always come back to it being a > facsimilie of the the real hardware, but it's just as expensive and as > uncommon as the real hardware (granted you can emulate more than one), and > that the software emulation of the various systems that you mentioned are > in many cases very, very good that I have a hard time justifying the > purchase of one. Different people like different things of course and I'm > not discouraging anyone that wants one...I often think about this in the > context of real article vs software emulation as well. Are these better, > the same as or worse than the software emulation options commonly > available? > Well the FPGA's have the advantage of a small box, for a gaming box that needs a few buttons, joystick and TV. Get them now before VIRTUAL 3D hits the market. I am picking up a Oberon FPGA setup to see what a real OS is like. Ben. From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 13:26:59 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:26:59 -0500 Subject: PDP8-i front panel font. In-Reply-To: <56FD61DA.6050506@btinternet.com> References: <56FD61DA.6050506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: Making one? I gotta sit down do same one of these days for the busted up 8i I found in a field On Mar 31, 2016 12:44 PM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > Hi Guys > Does anybody know or can suggest what the font is on a > pdp-8i? > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > From rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com Thu Mar 31 13:38:44 2016 From: rodsmallwood52 at btinternet.com (Rod Smallwood) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:38:44 +0100 Subject: PDP8-i front panel font. In-Reply-To: References: <56FD61DA.6050506@btinternet.com> Message-ID: <56FD6EB4.2030907@btinternet.com> On 31/03/2016 19:26, Adrian Stoness wrote: > Making one? I gotta sit down do same one of these days for the busted up 8i > I found in a field > On Mar 31, 2016 12:44 PM, "Rod Smallwood" > wrote: > >> Hi Guys >> Does anybody know or can suggest what the font is on a >> pdp-8i? >> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >> >> Hi Well a few more than one. I have a batch of 30 8/e, 8/f and 8/m going through at the moment First batch of 8/i would probably be 10 Rod (Panelman) Smallwood From tdk.knight at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 13:46:50 2016 From: tdk.knight at gmail.com (Adrian Stoness) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 13:46:50 -0500 Subject: PDP8-i front panel font. In-Reply-To: <56FD6EB4.2030907@btinternet.com> References: <56FD61DA.6050506@btinternet.com> <56FD6EB4.2030907@btinternet.com> Message-ID: O it's u doh that be sweet if u did that what price u figure that guna cost? On Mar 31, 2016 1:38 PM, "Rod Smallwood" wrote: > > > On 31/03/2016 19:26, Adrian Stoness wrote: > >> Making one? I gotta sit down do same one of these days for the busted up >> 8i >> I found in a field >> On Mar 31, 2016 12:44 PM, "Rod Smallwood" >> wrote: >> >> Hi Guys >>> Does anybody know or can suggest what the font is on a >>> pdp-8i? >>> Rod (Panelman) Smallwood >>> >>> >>> > Hi > > Well a few more than one. > > I have a batch of 30 8/e, 8/f and 8/m going through at the moment > First batch of 8/i would probably be 10 > > Rod (Panelman) Smallwood > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 14:34:01 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoff Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:34:01 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> Sent from my iPhone > On Mar 31, 2016, at 1:21 PM, ben wrote: > > > Well the FPGA's have the advantage of a small box, for a gaming box > that needs a few buttons, joystick and TV. Get them now before VIRTUAL 3D hits the market. I am picking up a Oberon FPGA setup to see what > a real OS is like. > Ben. > > A raspberry pi 2 fits in an even smaller box, and is a lot cheaper... From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 14:38:29 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:38:29 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: > A raspberry pi 2 fits in an even smaller box, and is a lot cheaper... FPGA can be configured to match the original hardware. Pis run Linux and then app on it which makes performence unstable? -- Ethan O'Toole From ben at bensinclair.com Thu Mar 31 14:52:13 2016 From: ben at bensinclair.com (Ben Sinclair) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:52:13 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 11:01 AM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Cool. From that era I'd guess you mean the Challenge S which was an Indy > without a framebuffer. There were Challenge series machines to match most > of the architectures before the O2. They were usually stripped down server > versions of whatever workstation was current. I still have a Challenge S > with a 200Mhz R4600 in it (fastest R4k). I use it as a web server. You can > also use the 180Mhz R5k in that guy. I love watching people try to hack it. > They get very confused (and doubtless quite frustrated). I want to say it was a Challenge L, but could be misremembering. It was big, not the S! -- Ben Sinclair ben at bensinclair.com From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 15:01:39 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:01:39 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > I want to say it was a Challenge L, but could be misremembering. It was > big, not the S! https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/15/Image11.jpg L's on the left, XL's on the right :-) > > -- > Ben Sinclair > ben at bensinclair.com > -- Ethan O'Toole From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 15:15:14 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:15:14 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> It's an "FPGA computer" it's hyper-neat, if you ask me. :-) > Like that Transmeta! ... but even more flexible. The Crusoe could do some FPGA-alike things, but it wasn't a full FPGA. The one in the MiST is probably a Xilinx Spartan or something like that. Pretty fancy stuff. It's impressive that it can reproduce the entire Amiga 1200 down to every operational component. > Same. Drooling over the Wired 1.1 SGI Ads with the Indigo. And seeing > the Sparcstation 20s at NASA LaRC when I was in high school. Very cool. I've never been inside any NASA building. The closest I've come is to drive by the Johnson Space Center in Houston when I was in high school. One thing that impacted me a lot when I was younger was when I'd visit or see video of any kind of place where technical or scientific work was going on, I paid a lot of attention to the computers people used. I noticed right away that pointy-haired-boss and bean-counters used one type, and the folks with a brain used a different type. So, right away I wanted to know what was special and cool about the guy in the corner with the purple computer. It's all just a jedi-mind-trick, I know, but it's just something that I've realized was very influential to me at the time. > Interesting. The Origin 350 was another machine that had my eye. I've > never seen a Tezro IRL. So wild looking. I don't think I ever even put hands on an O350. I've seen a bunch of o them for sale, though. They have a Craylink setup, IIRC. So, that's neat. > Origin 2000 full rack Nice! You must have a truck or cargo van with a lift or something. You mention a lot of really heavy rigs. > Origin 200 I love these little guys. I've had a couple myself. These are really the premier IRIX server for the money if you don't need a framebuffer. I like Challenge boxes, but the O200 racked a lot easier than any Challenge I've seen. > Challenge XL (x2) > Challenge L (x4) I had an XL for a while, too. > Onyx RE (x3) > Crimson (x2) I wanted one of these two sooooo bad when they came out. The Crimson was also very cool because it _was_ crimson (in color). SGI was about the company that cared about that kind of industrial design in the 1990's. That and the fact that their machines were underrated vis-a-vis Sun. I couldn't believe how much better of a value the Indy and Indigo 2 were compared to Sun. They'd usually come with crap 8-bit graphics and some inferior sound device. For quite a while they had zilch for Z-buffered 3D while SGI ate their lunch, yet all my geek buddies still thought Sun was something special. They did some cool things, just not as cool as SGI was doing at the time. It wasn't until Jurassic Park came out that some folks started to appreciate the power of SGI boxes. "This is Unix. I know this!" > Indy (x 8?) > Challenge S (x 2 IIRC) Hey! You've had more Indy's than me! :-) My friend Greg Douglas used to run Reputable Systems in Boulder. He's the only one I know of who has had more SGIs that you or I ;-) I saw his warehouse when Reputable.com was going strong. It was a little slice of heaven. > Indigo (R3K and R4K, hopefully still have the R4K CPU card) > Indigo^2 (both Teal and Purple) I used one of these when I worked at IBM for a while. I wasn't very popular with the AIX / Power folks, but what did they want me to use some RS/6000 or Intellistation running AIX.... no thanks. CDE < && != Indigo Magic. IMHO and YMMV of course :-) > Octane I never had an Octane, but I did have an Octane2 for a few weeks until the noise drove me insane and I got rid of it. It had low-end graphics anyhow. > Never owned an O2, randomly just never landed one. Bummer. They rocked pretty hard. I'm still seeing pristine O2+ rigs going for $400-$800. If it wasn't for the CRM graphics being limited to 1280x1024 it'd still be my favorite. > In that era I worked at NASA LaRC as a system admin and we had Origin > 2000s, one Onyx^2 running a cave, Challenge XLs, and Origin 3800s. That sounds too awesome for words. Don't ruin it telling me about the bureaucracy or how none of it's funded, now. I'm trying to live in the past, dang it. :-) > SGI machines were interesting. The origin 2000 and Challenge XL are > really friendly large computers to own. They're not crazy overbuilt, so > they're lightweight and friendly. That's one thing that's amazing about the Tezro. You have a ccNUMA based memory design with a true crossbar architecture. The thing is a real little supercomputer. You could write MPI code on it and shoot it over to an O3k and it'd run like a champ. All that, and it runs on 110 as a deskside unit. It's just LOUD. I've even gone so far as to try to get more efficient fans from audio gear to replace the chassis fans. However, it's turned out to be a pain because of the fan sensors. Maybe one day I can 3D print some specially shaped carbon-fiber fan blades and shrouds and cut the noise. :-) > Power costs are definitely a consideration, and I'm in the same boat > regarding storage. Yeah, I definitely just keep my gear on when I need it. I also use a Baytech RPC-10 to control power on my machines in the garage (and a serial console server for lights-out). I can turn most of them on and off from remote. > Housing costs have doubled+ so moving large computer collection and > arcade collection everytime landlord raises rent too much or job changes > is a P.I.T.A. A huge one. I credit the rise of so-called "hackerspace" clubs/shops to this issue. We want to keep these old gems, but uhhh.. where? So, folks get together and pile all the junk in one big warehouse on the stinky side of town. The only problem is that here in Denver, the ones I've seen don't take care of them and people are careless & abusive of the gear. I can't have my beautiful blue cases scratched up. :-) > If only the US Government would stop manipulating the market in cahoots > with the bankers, prices would sink sink sink. Hopefully another crash > soon! I'm right there with ya. I live in Denver and I work a decent IT job. I can't buy a house anywhere near where the work is. The wing-tips got em' locked up as investments. I'll be happy to rent space in the tent city once I'm too old to be of any use to my corporate masters. I just hope my savings will be enough to buy bread (or cat food?) when I'm elderly. All my talk of "what I'm gonna do when I get a house" is a pipe-dream. Like the rest of us, I'll be lucky to have a place to plug my computer in as our glorious future arrives. > In the meantime, I do have my Cray J932SE up for sale. It's on eBay but > I'd rather sell around eBay. I need to shed that and an industrial robot > arm to clear out storage back in Norfolk! I used to administer one of those a long time ago at a telco. They used it for fraud detection for their calling cards. It had a little SPARC box to help control & bootstrap it. UNICOS (it was 10.x IIRC) was weird stuff, sometimes but still fun. > Cool. Probably bad caps, I replaced 4 in an Indigo^2 that I sold. I've replaced a lot of NIDEC power supplies with Sony ones in my Indys. Those are the main ones I've had issues with. However, my IMPACT Indigo^2 box had one die, too. > He was saying he can swap the PSU with a PC one, I asked him if it's a > bad cap issue. You can. They are electrically compatible, but the problem is that the Fuel mobo doesn't use a standard ATX connector. One needs only to hand-build a converter. It's not hard, you just need pin-outs. They are on Nekochan somewhere. > He has a 2nd motherboard for it as well. He perked up when I mentioned > Tezro. He also hasn't seen one IRL I've never had a Fuel. I was a bit put off by them at first because they reminded me of the way Sun started making the UltraSPARC machines like PeeCees. They basically looked like a PC with a different CPU (rather than something cool and different ala a SPARCstation). However, after seeing all the cool hardware you can make work in a Fuel, and considering you could get a near-silent 500W PS and replace the noisy one with some small effort, I've considered getting one, but once I got the Tezro, well... That's actually part of the reason why I got the Tezro. I knew it'd make me stop lusting for a Fuel and a decent Rocktane^2 and thus save me money overall. :-) -Swift From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 31 15:39:38 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:39:38 -0600 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: <56FD8B0A.80706@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/31/2016 1:38 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> A raspberry pi 2 fits in an even smaller box, and is a lot cheaper... > > FPGA can be configured to match the original hardware. Pis run Linux and > then app on it which makes performence unstable? > FPGA's can match the TIMING and HARDWARE BUGS better, if given half a chance. > -- > Ethan O'Toole > > > From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 15:48:42 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:48:42 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <56FD8B0A.80706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> <56FD8B0A.80706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:39 PM, ben wrote: > > FPGA's can match the TIMING and HARDWARE BUGS better, if given half a >>> chance. >>> >> >> Either one is an approximation of the real hardware. It all depends on the level of effort given to either approach. For what it's worth, for very complex hardware the FPGA approach makes the most sense. For an Amiga or an Atari ST though? Not so sure about that. >From what I've seen the software emulation is extremely good. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 15:53:45 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:53:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, Geoffrey Oltmans wrote: > facsimilie of the the real hardware, but it's just as expensive and as > uncommon as the real hardware (granted you can emulate more than one), I think mine was just shy of 200 bucks or so. I don't think I could get a fully maxxed out A1200 for that, but who knows; maybe, so. > and that the software emulation of the various systems that you > mentioned are in many cases very, very good that I have a hard time > justifying the purchase of one. This is what I struggled with, too. Why buy yet another piece of kit when I can run UAE and other emulators with ease (and all on my main workstation) ? For me, the reason is a bit specific to my situation. For one, the MiST is _tiny_ it's about the size of a box of strike-anywhere kitchen matches (I used to shoot these out of my BB gun, dunno why that came to mind, sorry). Another reason is that I like to use a KVM on my workstation at home. I find that if a machine isn't on my KVM, it doesn't get much use. So, being that the MiST is HD15 VGA + USB kb & mouse, that suited my KVM rig perfectly. I had a little 5-port USB power supply down there, too. So, I was able to plug the MiST into that without burning another power-socket or needing a thick cable. The emulation is also a bit better in some cases. I can run demos on my MiST that have significant problems with UAE (glitchy graphics display). I also enjoy console games (heck any games for that matter, including pinball). So, the MiST emulates some big platform names there. Unfortunately, there is no Neo Geo or SNES support, yet. However, I have a feeling that'll come. Folks are already discussing those. So, i see it as kind of a "super-emulator" that has the additional benefits of working with my KVM console rig (and my monitor), without having to burn a bunch of space. Still you are completely correct, you could setup all the same OS's using pure software emulators, and use one of those USB-to-ancient-joystick converters to get that little feature. Using the MiST is a weird experience. To me, it's more exciting than firing up an emulator, but less than putting hands on the real metal. YMMV, but I see your points, for sure. I thought a lot of the same things. However, given it's size, it won't junk up my place anymore which is my main concern. Given the cost, if I get tired of it... well it was just $180 or so, and someone will buy it. -Swift From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 15:58:22 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 14:58:22 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ben wrote: > Well the FPGA's have the advantage of a small box, for a gaming box that > needs a few buttons, joystick and TV. Yes, and you can control the floppy insert/eject operations all from the joystick rather than needing a computer console etc... > Get them now before VIRTUAL 3D hits the market. Are you talking about folks taking tile based 2D games and running algorithms to 3D-ize them into "new games" ? I'm wondering why you connect this and the MiST ? Just curious. > I am picking up a Oberon FPGA setup to see what a real OS is like. Ben. Nice! I never even thought about someone setting up an FPGA to do that. The same would be cool for old LISP machines or a Thinking Machines emulator. That'd be really interesting. -Swift From oltmansg at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:10:32 2016 From: oltmansg at gmail.com (Geoffrey Oltmans) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:10:32 -0500 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 3:53 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > This is what I struggled with, too. Why buy yet another piece of kit when > I can run UAE and other emulators with ease (and all on my main > workstation) ? For me, the reason is a bit specific to my situation. For > one, the MiST is _tiny_ it's about the size of a box of strike-anywhere > kitchen matches (I used to shoot these out of my BB gun, dunno why that > came to mind, sorry). Another reason is that I like to use a KVM on my > workstation at home. I find that if a machine isn't on my KVM, it doesn't > get much use. So, being that the MiST is HD15 VGA + USB kb & mouse, that > suited my KVM rig perfectly. I had a little 5-port USB power supply down > there, too. So, I was able to plug the MiST into that without burning > another power-socket or needing a thick cable. > > The emulation is also a bit better in some cases. I can run demos on my > MiST that have significant problems with UAE (glitchy graphics display). I > also enjoy console games (heck any games for that matter, including > pinball). So, the MiST emulates some big platform names there. > Unfortunately, there is no Neo Geo or SNES support, yet. However, I have a > feeling that'll come. Folks are already discussing those. So, i see it as > kind of a "super-emulator" that has the additional benefits of working with > my KVM console rig (and my monitor), without having to burn a bunch of > space. > > Still you are completely correct, you could setup all the same OS's using > pure software emulators, and use one of those USB-to-ancient-joystick > converters to get that little feature. Using the MiST is a weird > experience. To me, it's more exciting than firing up an emulator, but less > than putting hands on the real metal. YMMV, but I see your points, for > sure. I thought a lot of the same things. However, given it's size, it > won't junk up my place anymore which is my main concern. Given the cost, if > I get tired of it... well it was just $180 or so, and someone will buy it. > > -Swift > Good info. I haven't talked to anyone that could compare one with the software emulation that's available. I have been working on improving Adamem for the Coleco ADAM for the past 10 years or so off and on. In most respects it does an excellent job of emulating the real deal. There are a couple of areas I'm still working to address on it (namely sound emulation). Granted, that system is quite a bit simpler than an Amiga. From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:13:56 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:13:56 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: >> A raspberry pi 2 fits in an even smaller box, and is a lot cheaper... > FPGA can be configured to match the original hardware. Pis run Linux and > then app on it which makes performence unstable? Don't mistake me as dissin' the Pi or Pi^2. They are cool. However, I'll point these items out: * It's software emulation, not an FPGA simulating the actual hardware. Sometimes this is an academic distinction, other times it means your OS or demo won't work because they didn't reproduce some hardware quirk in the emulator. Being honest, though, the MiST is currently slightly more buggy than UAE. * The MiST has two built-in 9-pin old-school joystick ports like the ones on the Amiga, ST, Sega Genesis, etc.. You could get a USB dongle for the Pi for joysticks, but it'd be messier with some "dongle" hanging off. * I have two old ones (Pi v1) and one Pi v2. They can emulate, for example, a Genesis (using dgen) pretty well. However, UAE on one drags pretty hard. They don't quite have the grunt to be smooth and seamless with software emulation. On the other hand, using UAE on a fast PC (I use it a lot on a 4.0Ghz i7) smokes the performance of the MiST. * You also can't run the all emulators with nothing more than a joystick, inserting or removing ROMs as you see fit without having to touch a keyboard (good for HTPC-style emulator rigs where someone wants to sit on the couch and play The Last Ninja on their 60" LCD TV). * For whatever reason in my case, the sound is (way) smoother than using a software emulator. No static, no jitter - it's perfect. Playing devils advocate, there are some reasons you might want to eschew a MiST type setup (or original real hardware) and go with an emulator: * You are running an app that can benefit from your super-fast PC. * You don't want to have to mess with the wacky refresh rates and weird video issues you might run into. Lots of monitors cannot do 15Khz refresh rates. * You don't want the expense or the mess of buy new hardware. * You only dabble with those platforms and spend 5 minutes using them at a time. Ie.. it's not worth it. * You'd rather use your bad-dog PC USB joy stick/pad than any krufty old joystick from back in the day. -Swift From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 16:29:01 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:29:01 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > Very cool. I've never been inside any NASA building. The closest I've come is > to drive by the Johnson Space Center in Houston when I was in high school. This was my place of work: https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image02.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image10.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image13.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image20.jpg https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/13/Image08.jpg My hobby in SGI and unix computers brought me out of tech support job into admin job. > One thing that impacted me a lot when I was younger was when I'd visit or see > video of any kind of place where technical or scientific work was going on, I > paid a lot of attention to the computers people used. I noticed right away > that pointy-haired-boss and bean-counters used one type, and the folks with a > brain used a different type. So, right away I wanted to know what was special > and cool about the guy in the corner with the purple computer. It's all just > a jedi-mind-trick, I know, but it's just something that I've realized was > very influential to me at the time. Very cool! > Nice! You must have a truck or cargo van with a lift or something. You > mention a lot of really heavy rigs. Used to borrow parents pickup for some of them, and the Cray stuff always requires a lift gate business class penske/budget/enterprise truck. From the arcade hobby side, I find myself with lift gate trucks fairly often (I let a gaming fest use a lot of my games so they go out once or twice a year, and friends do the same.) > I wanted one of these two sooooo bad when they came out. The Crimson was also > very cool because it _was_ crimson (in color). SGI was about the company that > cared about that kind of industrial design in the 1990's. That and the fact > that their machines were underrated vis-a-vis Sun. I couldn't believe how > much better of a value the Indy and Indigo 2 were compared to Sun. They'd > usually come with crap 8-bit graphics and some inferior sound device. For > quite a while they had zilch for Z-buffered 3D while SGI ate their lunch, yet > all my geek buddies still thought Sun was something special. They did some > cool things, just not as cool as SGI was doing at the time. It wasn't until > Jurassic Park came out that some folks started to appreciate the power of SGI > boxes. The interesting thing is, I've always been so underwhelmed with the Crimson. Sure it's red, but the black deskside Onyx with the purple stripe or blue Challenge was just so much better to me. RE graphics, and the ability to go to 12 CPUs on the deskside Onyx (Am I right? Or was onyx limited to 4 and Challenge L was 12, can't remember) just made the Onyx way more desireable to me! > My friend Greg Douglas used to run Reputable Systems in Boulder. He's the > only one I know of who has had more SGIs that you or I ;-) I saw his > warehouse when Reputable.com was going strong. It was a little slice of > heaven. Oh wow! So my first SGI, the Indigo R3000 then with 8bit graphics now mine has Elan graphics, the one I still have, I bought from Greg/Reputable! He was pretty much the source for the hobby world until eBay picked up. XSNet or whatever in Georgia was another source. I used to go to NASA Auction and for instance I traded a bunch of SGI video boxes used for one of those systems ?Gallalieo? Some Onyx video rig to them in return for 6 x Indy and 5 x Sun Sparcstation 20s. Had a web hosting company running on them for a while: Oh wow more old pics: https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/dec02/IMG_0057.JPG https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/dec02/IMG_0058.JPG Good times! > I used one of these when I worked at IBM for a while. I wasn't very popular > with the AIX / Power folks, but what did they want me to use some RS/6000 or > Intellistation running AIX.... no thanks. CDE < && != Indigo Magic. IMHO and > YMMV of course :-) Hah nice! > That sounds too awesome for words. Don't ruin it telling me about the > bureaucracy or how none of it's funded, now. I'm trying to live in the past, > dang it. :-) Oh no that group is going strong and probably has crazy toys. Last I heard I think they were rocking 2.2 petabytes of disk or something, and that was 8 years ago? > Yeah, I definitely just keep my gear on when I need it. I also use a Baytech > RPC-10 to control power on my machines in the garage (and a serial console > server for lights-out). I can turn most of them on and off from remote. Nice, I use similar boxes with AMX NetLinx controller for home automation. > A huge one. I credit the rise of so-called "hackerspace" clubs/shops to this > issue. We want to keep these old gems, but uhhh.. where? So, folks get > together and pile all the junk in one big warehouse on the stinky side of > town. The only problem is that here in Denver, the ones I've seen don't take > care of them and people are careless & abusive of the gear. I can't have my > beautiful blue cases scratched up. :-) Nice! My Cray lived at the Norfolk VA hackerspace until it's demise, and a few of the other systems were there but nothing like a full on museum. There was a college class that came to see the Cray once. That was interesting. > I'm right there with ya. I live in Denver and I work a decent IT job. I can't > buy a house anywhere near where the work is. The wing-tips got em' locked up > as investments. I'll be happy to rent space in the tent city once I'm too old > to be of any use to my corporate masters. I just hope my savings will be > enough to buy bread (or cat food?) when I'm elderly. All my talk of "what I'm > gonna do when I get a house" is a pipe-dream. Like the rest of us, I'll be > lucky to have a place to plug my computer in as our glorious future arrives. Same! Cash out and move to flyover country! Or commercial space since most of it won't be needed with Amazon! > I used to administer one of those a long time ago at a telco. They used it > for fraud detection for their calling cards. It had a little SPARC box to > help control & bootstrap it. UNICOS (it was 10.x IIRC) was weird stuff, > sometimes but still fun. THAT IS THE STRANGEST USE I'VE EVER HEARD. That is fascinating! > That's actually part of the reason why I got the Tezro. I knew it'd make me > stop lusting for a Fuel and a decent Rocktane^2 and thus save me money > overall. :-) There ya go! > > -Swift > -- Ethan O'Toole From billdegnan at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 16:47:02 2016 From: billdegnan at gmail.com (william degnan) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:47:02 -0400 Subject: multinet 4.1 PAK In-Reply-To: References: <01PY3XSOCEEI00CPSN@beyondthepale.ie> <56F13E72.1070101@yahoo.com> <01PYA40DOKUS00CSRV@beyondthepale.ie> <01PYEF27EAV800CQ04@beyondthepale.ie> Message-ID: I finally got back in. The trick was to use only the minimum parameters. On Tue, Mar 29, 2016 at 6:54 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Mar 29, 2016 6:37 PM, "Peter Coghlan" wrote: > > > > > > > > One other thing to add, when I wrote down the info from the license > > > originally I made a little note on a scrap of paper, with the values I > saw > > > at a point before I deleted the key originally > > > > > > MULTINET > > > TGV > > > 1 > > > A-10-098-116512 (authorization?) > > > G (?) > > > H (?) > > > AA-10098-116512 (product token?) > > > > > > I am not sure what the Hardware_ID is or if I need it, you're asked a > bunch > > > of questions when you install the PAK. > > > > > > > There are a whole bunch of license parameters but a given license won't > make > > use of them all. I have not seen Hardware_ID in use for Multinet > licenses. > > If the license you have doesn't have a Hardware_ID, just press enter to > select > > the default when you are asked for it. > > > > Regards, > > Peter Coghlan. > > > > I will let you know how it goes. > B > -- @ BillDeg: Web: vintagecomputer.net Twitter: @billdeg Youtube: @billdeg Unauthorized Bio From bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca Thu Mar 31 16:53:55 2016 From: bfranchuk at jetnet.ab.ca (ben) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:53:55 -0600 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <56FD9C73.9040606@jetnet.ab.ca> On 3/31/2016 2:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ben wrote: >> Well the FPGA's have the advantage of a small box, for a gaming box >> that needs a few buttons, joystick and TV. > > Yes, and you can control the floppy insert/eject operations all from the > joystick rather than needing a computer console etc... > >> Get them now before VIRTUAL 3D hits the market. > > Are you talking about folks taking tile based 2D games and running > algorithms to 3D-ize them into "new games" ? I'm wondering why you > connect this and the MiST ? Just curious. No, I was thinking of the latest technology stuff that claims to give real 3D, something like Star Trek's Holo-deck. I just heard about it over the grape vine. >> I am picking up a Oberon FPGA setup to see what a real OS is like. Ben. > > Nice! I never even thought about someone setting up an FPGA to do that. > The same would be cool for old LISP machines or a Thinking Machines > emulator. That'd be really interesting. Get writing that PDP 10 emulator for LISP :) > -Swift > I suspect the Oberon FPGA card would make a nice small PDP 10 emulator as you get a network i/o device. Ben. From charles.unix.pro at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:05:01 2016 From: charles.unix.pro at gmail.com (Charles Anthony) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:05:01 -0700 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <56FD9C73.9040606@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <56FD9C73.9040606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 2:53 PM, ben wrote: > On 3/31/2016 2:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > > Get writing that PDP 10 emulator for LISP :) dps8m emulator: Multics MR12.6: Serenity Valley Engineering (Channel d.h000) Load = 12.0 out of 90.0 units: users = 12, 03/31/16 1503.6 pdt Thu l Anthony u Password: You are protected from preemption until 15:03. Anthony.User logged in 03/31/16 1503.7 pdt Thu from ASCII terminal "none". Last login 03/20/16 1119.4 pdt Sun from ASCII terminal "none". You have mail. r 15:03 3.424 60 lisp * (print "Multics rulez; UNIX droolz") "Multics rulez; UNIX droolz" t -- Charles From eric at swenson.org Thu Mar 31 17:22:01 2016 From: eric at swenson.org (Eric Swenson) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 15:22:01 -0700 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <56FD9C73.9040606@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <629D1A5B-C50A-4664-ADAE-FAA5941E6FA6@swenson.org> You can also use the KLH10 emulator and run ITS (probably TOPS-20 as well). Both have MacLisp as well. Multics, running under the DPS8M emulator, is probably easier to get running, and the OS is a lot easier to grok than ITS. ? Eric > On Mar 31, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Charles Anthony wrote: > > On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 2:53 PM, ben wrote: >> On 3/31/2016 2:58 PM, Swift Griggs wrote: > >> >> Get writing that PDP 10 emulator for LISP :) > > dps8m emulator: > > Multics MR12.6: Serenity Valley Engineering (Channel d.h000) > Load = 12.0 out of 90.0 units: users = 12, 03/31/16 1503.6 pdt Thu > l Anthony u > Password: > You are protected from preemption until 15:03. > Anthony.User logged in 03/31/16 1503.7 pdt Thu from ASCII terminal "none". > Last login 03/20/16 1119.4 pdt Sun from ASCII terminal "none". > You have mail. > r 15:03 3.424 60 > > lisp > * > (print "Multics rulez; UNIX droolz") > "Multics rulez; UNIX droolz" > t > > -- Charles From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 31 17:37:40 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 17:37:40 -0500 Subject: Old IBM and Apple computers, NIB Message-ID: <012901d18b9d$ef089b20$cd19d160$@com> CCNY in NYC has old IBM computers, NIB. He usually sells for high prices on ebay, but I told him I have collectors who want them, but not at ebay prices. He usually sells 8025 with one floppy and 640K and monochrome monitor on ebay for $145, but he will do $125 off ebay, plus shipping. 8525 with two 8bit isa slots, 8086 proc model 25s, 30s, 56, 57, 76 and 77 8530's with hard disk and without http://imgur.com/a/gLPa2 http://o.aolcdn.com/hss/storage/fss/4e01ff8247d359c02237a965ea8f72af New in box IIc Too much other Apple stuff to list. send email to lorenzo at nyceonline.net tell him Cindy sent you, and to be nice about the price! Yes, he will ship internationally. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From swiftgriggs at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 17:49:45 2016 From: swiftgriggs at gmail.com (Swift Griggs) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 16:49:45 -0600 (MDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, 31 Mar 2016, ethan at 757.org wrote: > This was my place of work: Killer pics. What is that octagonal structure (room?) behind the machines? Dude, *please* tell me that was your office. > [...] I find myself with lift gate trucks fairly often (I let a gaming > fest use a lot of my games so they go out once or twice a year, and > friends do the same.) Huh, I wish they had a gaming fest like that in my area. That sounds like a good time. > The interesting thing is, I've always been so underwhelmed with the > Crimson. Sure it's red, Well, it was a forbidden fruit thing for me. I never got to touch that one. > but the black deskside Onyx with the purple stripe or blue Challenge was > just so much better to me. RE graphics, and the ability to go to 12 CPUs > on the deskside Onyx (Am I right? Or was onyx limited to 4 and Challenge > L was 12, can't remember) just made the Onyx way more desireable to me! IMO, you are right on all points. I wished they would have allowed the 4-way R10k boards to work in tandem, because you'd have got 24 CPUs that way. IIRC, you could use dual R4k's or dual R10k's for a maxxed out version (12-way). Overall, they look a bit cooler and fit with the SGI motif better, too (purple / blue). The Reality Engine was also a killer system for caves. I built one for the DOE years ago using a similar setup. With the full kit they had genlocks, SVideo, a frame grabber, ridiculously overspec'd sound I/O, etc... When you look at the rear of an Onyx you definitely start thinking "This thing is built for fun and interesting media work." > Oh wow! So my first SGI, the Indigo R3000 then with 8bit graphics now > mine has Elan graphics, the one I still have, I bought from > Greg/Reputable! Small world, eh? Well, he is an awesome guy. He lives close to me and we'd go to computer swap meets in Golden together sometimes when he ran Reputable. I haven't talked to him in a few years. The first time I ever saw Quake III running at impressive framerate was at Greg's place on a Rocktane^2. > He was pretty much the source for the hobby world until eBay picked up. > XSNet or whatever in Georgia was another source. Yep. Sadly they are both gone, now. Hey! Maybe that's what we can do in retirement rather than work at Wendy's: Setup a hobby computer store online that sells nothing but old hobby junk. Wouldn't be the first, but it sounds better than flipping burgers. Then again, I'm not sure my eyes are going to last that long... > I used to go to NASA Auction and for instance I traded a bunch of SGI > video boxes used for one of those systems ?Gallalieo? Some Onyx video > rig I was obsessed with getting a Galileo board, myself. I wanted one and an Indy to go with it so very badly when they were new. I have a story about that board. I used to live in Amarillo, Texas for a while. There was this computer store there, called "Thoroughbred Computers" (I'm pretty sure that was it). It was the main computer store in town during the mid 1990s. It was like a Frys or Microcenter, but smaller and with elitist PeeCee guys (kind of an oxy moron eh?) staring at you from across a dirty service counter like you were a scum covered turd for asking to see that SIMM module or Cyrix 586 board. The guy who owned it had big dreams of doing 3D & video production. So, he bought a bevy of SGIs. He had a couple of Indys and a couple of Indigo^2 machines. One of the Indy's had a Galileo board in it. He also had a Toaster 4k, rig. I got the feeling that the guy who owned the joint was a real tool. His trophy wife, of course, wanted to run the 3D & video production studio (in cow-town Texas.... great idea eh?). The only problem for the both of them was that they only had PeeCee dweebs working there. When they started having some Unix issues, they didn't know what to do. When I say Unix issues, I mean like how to add the default route or re-install the OS. So, they contact this professor at Amarillo College (a Jr college where I schooled). He was one of about 3 Unix savvy people in town at the time. He was busy building a ranch outside of town and didn't want to consult for them but he gave them my name. "This kid knows Unix. He can do what you need." So, they came to me to do some basic stuff. I was in college at the time and I was so jealous they probably thought I was from Mars because of how green I was around them. Still, it was a chance to put hands on some new Unix metal and I was 200% game for it. I came in and chatted with the owner's wife and to say that she was clueless is being gentle. It's a wonder this woman could dress herself without help, she was pure arm-candy only. They had zero chance of success and I was irritated that those beautiful machines were going to waste, but what could I do? About six weeks after that incident, it turns out that this owner had incorporated the computer shop so he could better hide how much he was stealing and not paying taxes, et al. There was some other criminal and general scumbaggery going on, but I can't remember everything. The cops wanted to know where the guy was and wanted to arrest him. So, *poof* he skips town and nobody can find his goat smellin' hide. They never did, as far as I know. The bank decided it didn't know WTF it was going to do with a ton of crap PC hardware (nice at the time, though) and four glorious SGI machines. So, they auctioned them off lickety-split off folding tables in the front of the store (indoors at least). I went to the auction with $1200 bucks. I'd borrowed $400 from my grandmother. I think I was 19 or something (I'm 41 now). All the SGI's went for more or slightly more than that. I was so disappointed. I guess I should have mowed some more lawns or something... Even more weird, one of the crooked-owner's sycophant business-disciples buys up some of the gear, including a Apollo Domain/OS workstation. He had decided to start one of these new things called an ISP to give people access to this thing called Internet. You know, you load Trumpet Winsock and you are good to go! (as long as your PPP setup is working). The Apollo workstation needed to be a DNS, SMTP, POP3, NNTP, server and run routed (modem channel banks used RIP routing). He didn't know the first thing about Unix or TCP/IP, since the only thing he'd been trained in was how to steal, effectively. So, this new scumbag who learned at the feet of his master (kind of like a Sith and Sith Lord, actually), decides HE also needs a Unix guru and goes back to Professor Haiduke for help. Prof blows the job off and sends it to me again (he wanted to get his new place settled and get outta the business, I think, but he was smart). I worked at this little rinky dink ISP (it was called "Genesis") for about 3 months. Then I come in one day, and this lawyer (the place was inside of a law office and some of the lawyers managed parts of the biz... different long story) comes up to me and says "Swift we've been keeping an eye on the folks here and it turns out you are the only one who isn't trying to steal money from the business and pay personal expenses with it." These guys had been stealing money from our general revenue and paying for child support, truck payments, BMW payments, etc... Soooo, they were fired and I found myself running a dial-in ISP solo for a while. That's how I became a "real" sysadmin, as opposed to a nutty student Unix zealot. The only reason the ISP existed was because scumbag 2.0 had convinced a rich widow that he could use the Internet / web to find the killer of her son who was an LAPD officer killed while on duty, and these lawyers all managed her trust funds or whatever rich people have for that kind of thing. Needless to say, it all fell apart when I started telling folks the truth. However, the lawyers thought having a SprintLink T1 to the office was the greatest thing ever so they paid my crappy salary until I moved to Norway after the T1 contract expired. Now, as for those SGIs, well the head scumbag (2.0) of the ISP, before he was shown the door, told me he knew one of the folks who bought the SGIs. It turned out they had the Indy with the Galileo board. They also had problems booting one of the machines due to something dumb they'd put in their inittab (a :wq at the bottom - nice vi skills). So, I negotiated that I'd fix that machine if they'd give me the Gallileo board from the spare Indy they had. I didn't even have an Indy! They didn't even know what it was for, and they agreed. They were doing 3D with Alias, so they didn't care much about video. It took me two or three more years (I moved to Norway for a while after that) to get a machine to put it in. However, by Jove, I got *something* from them after all. Every time I turn on my Indy, I wonder if they ever caught up to the crooked owner dude or if he just started over scamming somewhere else... > Oh wow more old pics: > https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/dec02/IMG_0057.JPG > https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/dec02/IMG_0058.JPG Very cool. I can see those challenge S boxes up there. Too bad the cases fade so much faster than the normal Indys. I would also have liked it if they'd have had more badges for them. > Oh no that group is going strong and probably has crazy toys. Last I > heard I think they were rocking 2.2 petabytes of disk or something, and > that was 8 years ago? Yay! Go NASA! NASA and a few DOE (NIST, NREL, etc..) branches are about the only good parts left to our poor bought-and-sold gubment. > Nice, I use similar boxes with AMX NetLinx controller for home > automation. Hmm, I never thought of using home automation gear for that and I even used to work on home automation controllers (Colorado vNet before they folded). Doh! Good idea! > Nice! My Cray lived at the Norfolk VA hackerspace until it's demise, and > a few of the other systems were there but nothing like a full on museum. Hopefully they didn't beat it up too bad. > There was a college class that came to see the Cray once. That was > interesting. Cool. School them youngsters. > Same! Cash out and move to flyover country! Or commercial space since > most of it won't be needed with Amazon! Next work-from-home gig I hook up with, I might have to do just that. I dearly love Colorado, but that doesn't mean I can't move to some tiny agri-town and live in a converted machine-shop or something. I'll be buggerized if I'm going to give 2x the cost of a house to a bank for a mortgage on a place that's already twice as expensive as it should be for what I'm buying. > THAT IS THE STRANGEST USE I'VE EVER HEARD. That is fascinating! It'd get real time call data and then if it detected that a calling card was being used in two geographically dispersed areas too close together time-wise, then they'd figure it was a stolen card and freeze the account. The Cray was the only thing that could handle all those data streams. It was at MCI in Colorado Springs, years ago. It had a zillion network interfaces, too. -Swift From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 31 18:54:40 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 18:54:40 -0500 Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed Message-ID: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> I collected some Sun keyboards for a customer, but some are too yellowed for him to use. They are all complete, including the cable, if it is supposed to be attached. I am asking $10 each plus shipping. They are not tested or cleaned. I don't have any Sun terminals left to test them on. Type 4, qty 2 (deeply yellowed) Type 6 USB, Unix, qty 10 (moderate yellowing) 320-1273 Type 6 USB Unix, qty 12 (no or very slight yellowing) 320-1273 asking $20 each plus shipping Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From supervinx at libero.it Thu Mar 31 18:56:50 2016 From: supervinx at libero.it (supervinx) Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2016 01:56:50 +0200 Subject: R: Re: Subject: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: <409lesaesi93svf3t7vvdj3m.1459468610688@email.android.com> The SYSVMR.CMD shows that the Indirect Command Processor is named ICP.TSK. Sadly, ICP.TSK is one of the four tasks that have read issues... I need another info: BAD is destructive or not destructive? Thsnks! From tmfdmike at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 19:09:40 2016 From: tmfdmike at gmail.com (Mike Ross) Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2016 13:09:40 +1300 Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed In-Reply-To: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> References: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> Message-ID: Oh perfect timing! What's the interface on the Type 4 cable? 15-pin D or DIN? I'll probably have one in any case; there are adapters :-) Mike On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > I collected some Sun keyboards for a customer, but some are too yellowed for > him to use. They are all complete, including the cable, if it is supposed to > be attached. > > I am asking $10 each plus shipping. They are not tested or cleaned. I don't > have any Sun terminals left to test them on. > > Type 4, qty 2 (deeply yellowed) > > Type 6 USB, Unix, qty 10 (moderate yellowing) 320-1273 > > Type 6 USB Unix, qty 12 (no or very slight yellowing) 320-1273 asking $20 > each plus shipping > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 31 19:19:15 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:19:15 -0500 Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed In-Reply-To: References: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> Message-ID: <015d01d18bac$1fdb0c20$5f912460$@com> No cables on the Type 4. Apparently they were removable, and the scrappers took them off. I need your address for shipping, please. And your email, since it was not included for some reason. -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mike Ross Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 7:10 PM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Sun keyboards, yellowed Oh perfect timing! What's the interface on the Type 4 cable? 15-pin D or DIN? I'll probably have one in any case; there are adapters :-) Mike On Fri, Apr 1, 2016 at 12:54 PM, Cindy Croxton wrote: > I collected some Sun keyboards for a customer, but some are too > yellowed for him to use. They are all complete, including the cable, > if it is supposed to be attached. > > I am asking $10 each plus shipping. They are not tested or cleaned. I > don't have any Sun terminals left to test them on. > > Type 4, qty 2 (deeply yellowed) > > Type 6 USB, Unix, qty 10 (moderate yellowing) 320-1273 > > Type 6 USB Unix, qty 12 (no or very slight yellowing) 320-1273 asking > $20 each plus shipping > > > > Cindy Croxton > > > > --- > This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. > https://www.avast.com/antivirus -- http://www.corestore.org 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother. Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame. For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.' --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From sales at elecplus.com Thu Mar 31 19:21:01 2016 From: sales at elecplus.com (Cindy Croxton) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:21:01 -0500 Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed In-Reply-To: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> References: <014f01d18ba8$b0e04770$12a0d650$@com> Message-ID: <016401d18bac$5f54e510$1dfeaf30$@com> The 4s are gone now! -----Original Message----- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-bounces at classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Cindy Croxton Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 6:55 PM To: 'General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts' Subject: Sun keyboards, yellowed I collected some Sun keyboards for a customer, but some are too yellowed for him to use. They are all complete, including the cable, if it is supposed to be attached. I am asking $10 each plus shipping. They are not tested or cleaned. I don't have any Sun terminals left to test them on. Type 4, qty 2 (deeply yellowed) Type 6 USB, Unix, qty 10 (moderate yellowing) 320-1273 Type 6 USB Unix, qty 12 (no or very slight yellowing) 320-1273 asking $20 each plus shipping Cindy Croxton --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus From paulkoning at comcast.net Thu Mar 31 20:03:56 2016 From: paulkoning at comcast.net (Paul Koning) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 21:03:56 -0400 Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: <56FD8B0A.80706@jetnet.ab.ca> References: <56FD6AB5.5080104@jetnet.ab.ca> <5AB59133-2FE6-47A4-B198-E241D104FDC7@gmail.com> <56FD8B0A.80706@jetnet.ab.ca> Message-ID: <1195E267-6259-446F-9754-DDD3EB2ABF7E@comcast.net> > On Mar 31, 2016, at 4:39 PM, ben wrote: > > On 3/31/2016 1:38 PM, ethan at 757.org wrote: >>> A raspberry pi 2 fits in an even smaller box, and is a lot cheaper... >> >> FPGA can be configured to match the original hardware. Pis run Linux and >> then app on it which makes performence unstable? >> > > FPGA's can match the TIMING and HARDWARE BUGS better, if given half a chance. That depends. If you have a very good functional specification of a processor, you can build a behavioral model that will execute the same code. But it won't match the bugs (since those probably aren't in the spec) and it certainly won't match the timing. You can match timing and bugs, but for that you'd need to have access to the original design, at the gate level or close to it. That is occasionally possible (for example, the CDC 6600 design data exists to that level of detail). But it is quite rare to find that. In fact, even a functional spec good enough to do an FPGA behavioral model is rare. Most of the time you find yourself reverse engineering things from vague descriptions, just as emulator software programmers do. The PDP-11 FPGA designs I have seen are examples of this. paul From ethan at 757.org Thu Mar 31 22:03:27 2016 From: ethan at 757.org (ethan at 757.org) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:03:27 -0400 (EDT) Subject: MiST - Amiga ST FPGA + intro In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > > Killer pics. What is that octagonal structure (room?) behind the machines? > Dude, *please* tell me that was your office. StorageTek Powderhorn tape silos! 40 or 50GB per tape IIRC, but tons of them! > Well, it was a forbidden fruit thing for me. I never got to touch that > one. I sold mine to random people, I got the Onyx which I think I paid $666.66 for (GSA auctions, sealed bid) and then sold the Crimson to help cover costs but it was probably for $300 - $400 :-) > IMO, you are right on all points. I wished they would have allowed the 4-way > R10k boards to work in tandem, because you'd have got 24 CPUs that way. IIRC, > you could use dual R4k's or dual R10k's for a maxxed out version (12-way). > Overall, they look a bit cooler and fit with the SGI motif better, too > (purple / blue). The Reality Engine was also a killer system for caves. I > built one for the DOE years ago using a similar setup. With the full kit they > had genlocks, SVideo, a frame grabber, ridiculously overspec'd sound I/O, > etc... When you look at the rear of an Onyx you definitely start thinking > "This thing is built for fun and interesting media work." The Onyx they had for the cave was the one that looks like the Origin 2000, basically an Origin 2000 node that has video (you can numalink the onyx^2 to origin systems IIRC.) > Small world, eh? Well, he is an awesome guy. He lives close to me and we'd go > to computer swap meets in Golden together sometimes when he ran Reputable. I > haven't talked to him in a few years. The first time I ever saw Quake III > running at impressive framerate was at Greg's place on a Rocktane^2. Very cool! He even had the BoulderCam or something on the website. > I was obsessed with getting a Galileo board, myself. I wanted one and an Indy > to go with it so very badly when they were new. Crap this wasn't that. SIRUS video? Siris Video? This is it: http://www.futuretech.blinkenlights.nl/siriusvideo.html I think I only had the break out boxes (like 3 new in box) and cables. > to get a machine to put it in. However, by Jove, I got *something* from them > after all. Every time I turn on my Indy, I wonder if they ever caught up to > the crooked owner dude or if he just started over scamming somewhere else... > Hah! That's pretty crazy! The only crazy auction story I remember was an ISP (it's always an ISP?) called Picus in Virginia Beach. I go to the auction and there is 2 or 3 Sun E450s, they were getting older at the time but still kind of new. I go to the auction, everyone is there looking at the desktop PCs. I'm surrounding my heard of Suns thinking... oh yes, these are mine. Eventually this hill billy looking guy comes rolling in. Overalls and all. I'm thinking so far, NO competition these babys are mine! Hillbilly looks at me, looks at the Suns, looks at me, looks at the Suns... "Do you know if the ultra scsi disks are Fujitsu or Seagate?" Fuuuuu... yea. He took the Suns for some buyer he had lined up, another guy took the Cisco equipment. > Very cool. I can see those challenge S boxes up there. Too bad the cases fade > so much faster than the normal Indys. I would also have liked it if they'd > have had more badges for them. Retrobright might fix? > Next work-from-home gig I hook up with, I might have to do just that. I > dearly love Colorado, but that doesn't mean I can't move to some tiny > agri-town and live in a converted machine-shop or something. I'll be > buggerized if I'm going to give 2x the cost of a house to a bank for a > mortgage on a place that's already twice as expensive as it should be for > what I'm buying. > >> THAT IS THE STRANGEST USE I'VE EVER HEARD. That is fascinating! > > It'd get real time call data and then if it detected that a calling card was > being used in two geographically dispersed areas too close together > time-wise, then they'd figure it was a stolen card and freeze the account. > The Cray was the only thing that could handle all those data streams. It was > at MCI in Colorado Springs, years ago. It had a zillion network interfaces, > too. Mine were used to engineer nuclear submarine power systems or something for the Navy > -Swift > -- Ethan O'Toole From pete at petelancashire.com Thu Mar 31 21:45:33 2016 From: pete at petelancashire.com (Pete Lancashire) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 19:45:33 -0700 Subject: Need info for a VAX Station 3100 SPX / VS42A-DA Message-ID: Won the guy on the big auction site, put the minimum bid down and $50 later it showed up on the doorstop. http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6027 Sorry for the bad photo's but the sun was going down fast. Been trying to find the display interface specs, pinout, freqs, etc. but so far have been overwhelmed with just about everything else. Other things I guess I'll need are Also what keyboard should I be looking for ? What options do I have for an O/S ? The last time I logged into a VAX was one of many 11/780s the company I worked for was like 198? something. A LONG time ago .. -pete From glen.slick at gmail.com Thu Mar 31 22:36:09 2016 From: glen.slick at gmail.com (Glen Slick) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 20:36:09 -0700 Subject: Need info for a VAX Station 3100 SPX / VS42A-DA In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: On Thu, Mar 31, 2016 at 7:45 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote: > Won the guy on the big auction site, put the minimum bid down and $50 later > it showed up on the doorstop. > > http://petelancashire.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=6027 > > Sorry for the bad photo's but the sun was going down fast. > > Been trying to find the display interface specs, pinout, freqs, etc. but so > far have been overwhelmed with just about everything else. > > Other things I guess I'll need are > > Also what keyboard should I be looking for ? > > What options do I have for an O/S ? > > The last time I logged into a VAX was one of many 11/780s the company I > worked for was like 198? something. A VAXstation 3100 series GPX (VS40X-PA) controller is supposed to have a resolution of 1024 by 864 at 60Hz while the SPX (WS01X-GA) controller is supposed to have a resolution of 1280 by 1024 at 66 Hz. The color video cable 15-pin D-shell to 3-BNC cable for the SPX is the BC23J-03. The keyboard is the common LK201. I installed OpenVMS 7.3 on my VAXstation 3100 M76 SPX. From mark at matlockfamily.com Thu Mar 31 23:49:39 2016 From: mark at matlockfamily.com (Mark Matlock) Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2016 23:49:39 -0500 Subject: RSX-11 trouble Message-ID: <6EFD78AE-840F-4638-A8C9-ACBB6478DD13@MatlockFamily.com> > > Well... > REM ...AT. worked since an AT entry was present in the TAL output > INS $BIGIND not > INS -- File not found > > Disk (RD51) has 850 blocks free after some cleaning up. It had 738 before. > Thank for your answer. > I'll try your suggestions. > It's RSX-11 and I've found some troubles on the disk. > I ran VFY with the /RC option. > Some files can't be read (it reports -4 and -101 errors, parity error > and forced error mark). > INDEXF.SYS itself appears to have a bad spot. > So I'm tempted to backup all relevant data and reinstall. > > BTW there's no [3,54] on the fixed disk. Ok, if you don't have [3,54] then you must have RSX-11M not RSX-11M+. In that case you should have two versions of Indirect: [1,54]ICP.TSK [1,54]ICX.TSK ICP.TSK is the default, "full capacity" version and in V4.0 of RSX11M it shows up under TAS as: >TAS ...AT. ...AT. 1.0 GEN 64. 00060000 LB0:-00114253 so try removing it as you did above and then INS the ICX.TSK and try it. >REM ?AT. >INS [1,54]ICX.TSK >TAS ?AT. ...AT. 9.01 GEN 64. 00060000 LB0:-00114033 It would be good to know which version of RSX-11M you have and also a bit about the configuration. You mention backing up your data, what disks do you have? To back up a system disk sometimes it is best to use BRUSYS.SYS which on M should be in [1,51] It is a memory resident version of BRU (running under RSX11S) that you BOOT and then can copy disks. Good Luck! Mark